1 Monday 14 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom. Before we start the
10 examination of the first witness, we have to deal with a few things, and I
11 would like to do it as quickly as possible. First of all, Madam
12 Registrar, I think still decisions have been taken on the exhibits that
13 were tendered in respect of Witness DP3.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1756 under seal, pseudonym sheet;
15 Exhibit P3751 under seal, application for pension in B/C/S.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The documents are admitted into evidence. We will
17 deal with the DP51 exhibits not at this very moment because this witness
18 still has to return.
19 Then I have a few issues that I would like to bring to the
20 attention of the parties. Although a written decision, a more general
21 one, on the protective measures sought will be given, the Chamber would
22 like to receive by next Friday further details with respect to further
23 witnesses that will be called this month so we have already the
24 information available and that we don't have to wait until the arrival of
25 the witnesses. And as the Defence is aware of -- especially details in
1 respect of the proceedings pending for the return of property might be of
3 And the Chamber would also like very much to be informed about
4 what is most important for the witnesses in respect of the pseudonym on
5 the one hand side which would cause them to remain unknown to the local
6 authorities, or safe conduct on the other hand that would create the need
7 to inform the local authorities of the identity of these witnesses. So we
8 would like to be informed about that by next Friday for the witnesses
9 still to be called this month and one week later for all the remaining
11 Then we also have one of the witnesses for which a videolink was
12 asked for. The request was based on surgery this witness had to undergo
13 or has undergone. This Chamber would very much like to be informed in
14 more detail about the type of surgery, time for recovery, et cetera.
15 Yes, Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: I was hearing something on my -- I think I was tuned
17 into the French channel.
18 If I may ask, Mr. President, Your Honours, in respect to the
19 further details that the Defence provides a date of birth and father's
20 name of each witness. The difficulty which it presents is also sometimes
21 when we try to do our research, we come up with material for persons. And
22 it could save the court some time, primarily asking witnesses about
23 matters which are not relevant to them.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please give the personal data in such a way
25 that the persons can be identified. I think date of birth and name of the
1 father would be good criteria. Then I think -- yes, please,
2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. President, good
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think we will take a lot of time, otherwise I will
6 ask the usher to get the witness into the courtroom unless it is an issue
7 that you would like to discuss or to bring to our attention in the absence
8 of the witness.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Once again, the laptop
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Same is true for me.
12 MR. STAMP: And the same is true for us.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is one button that says "disconnect," but
14 if it's not connected yet. This happens almost every time now, every
15 day. So I do understand that there is some search for better solutions
16 than to repair every day the shortcomings. Could we be assisted today,
17 and I hope we will not be confronted with it for the next 70 days. Then,
18 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness.
19 MR. STAMP: I -- Mr. Stamp, it is always difficult to chose
20 between you and the Registrar, but if you would --
21 MR. STAMP: I don't understand the difficulty.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, both important people in this courtroom.
23 MR. STAMP: In respect -- I am so sorry.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I thought you understood what my choice
1 would be, but please proceed.
2 MR. STAMP: I do beg your pardon. In respect of the witness DP1,
3 we had indicated that as soon as available, we would provide coloured
4 copies of the black and white exhibits that were used. In the testimony,
5 the exhibit number is P3750, and we have now coloured copies which we
6 would like to tender up to the Court through the Registrar.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. I take it that you are
9 Mr. Konstantin Kacalin?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you in Russian.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of
14 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
15 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I will
16 read that solemn declaration to you. It will then be translated for you
17 into Russian. Would you then please repeat it. I will do it in small
18 parts. I solemnly declare.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I declare that I shall speak the
20 truth, nothing but the truth, and only the truth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The translation was not the usual following
22 order. May I take it that when you solemnly declared that you would speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, that is what you
24 declared in Russian?
25 Please be seated.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the witness and the parties especially to
3 take care that no one speaks before the previous phrases have been
4 translated. Because we have Russian translated, but it is two translators
5 who cannot overlap each other. So, therefore, I must ask you,
6 Mr. Kacalin, not to speak until everything has been translated, and you,
7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, not to put a next question to the witness until the
8 moment that everything is translated.
9 Then finally, I was informed that the translation services that
10 had been applied for rather late are available today and not tomorrow
11 anymore, both the technical and the persons involved. So I may urge the
12 parties to see that they will finish, if possible, the examination of this
13 witness today. So make it as efficient as possible.
14 Ms. Pilipovic, is it you or is it Mr. Piletta-Zanin who will
15 examine the witness?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] With the microphone it is better.
18 Very well. Please proceed.
19 WITNESS: KONSTANTIN KACALIN
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness. Can you hear me? Can
23 you hear me all right?
24 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
25 Q. This is not quite what the witness said, but it is not serious.
1 Witness, will you please tell us first: What are your
2 professional qualifications, that is, can you tell us something about your
3 professional training in just so many words.
4 A. I graduated from the university in Moscow, majoring in journalism.
5 I have been a journalist for 30 years in the state radio and television
6 in the U.S.S.R., the broadcasting service for Yugoslavia because I speak
7 Serbo-Croat. After that, I worked for the Mayak Radio station for a
8 rather long time. And I was also a former correspondent of the Mayak
9 Radio station from the Balkans stationed in Zagreb, Sarajevo and
10 Ljubljana. I went to the Balkans, and lately I have been working in a
11 television service, the so-called third federal channel as editor.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. When you say that you were correspondent
13 do you by this mean a war correspondent? You can answer by yes or no, and
14 I would be grateful if you do.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you cover the developments related to Sarajevo? If yes, when?
17 A. Yes, among other things, from Sarajevo.
18 Q. My question was also, Witness, if yes, then when? I do not have
19 the Russian channel. I do not know whether that was interpreted, but when
20 was that?
21 A. I worked in Sarajevo from 1995 to 1997.
22 Q. I wasn't really listening, but I see that you worked in Sarajevo
23 in 1995. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes. I worked in that period permanently in that period from
25 Sarajevo and from Zagreb, but I travelled to these places even before in
1 1993, and 1994.
2 Q. Witness, can you tell us when you travelled there in 1994, what
3 occasion did -- and at what time of the year where you in Sarajevo that
4 year. On the transcript I said 1993, 9-3, not 9-4.
5 A. Yes, it was in 1993. A group of journalists, including myself;
6 there were several people in the group. There was also Aleksandar
7 Kaverniev, correspondent from the Komsomolskaja Pravda; another person
8 from Moscow, Novoe Novosti [phoen]; Mrs. Irena Lagunina from Novoe Vreme.
9 We were together in Sarajevo from July 1993 for about a week.
10 Q. Witness, were you officially invited to go? Yes or no.
11 A. Yes, I was officially invited.
12 Q. Witness, who was it that formally and officially invited you to
13 visit Sarajevo in 1993?
14 A. It was a representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Moscow. He
15 called himself ambassador. I don't remember his last name now. But he is
16 still working in the Foreign Ministry of Bosnia. We can find that out.
17 He is in charge of Russian affairs. It was him who invited a group of
18 journalists from Moscow from very well-known publications Inasha [phoen]
19 as well as television and press journalists including radio journalists.
20 At the time, I was radio journalist. They invited us to visit Sarajevo,
21 and the Bosnian side took it upon themselves to organise everything and
22 make all the arrangements.
23 Q. Witness, I would like you to tell me: Did you meet with
24 officials -- with public figures in Sarajevo, and will you tell me yes or
25 no. Thank you. I will come back to that later. I am still talking about
1 1993, 9-3, did you then have an opportunity to visit the city of Sarajevo?
2 MR. STAMP: I am not sure of the answer to the previous question
3 is recorded on the English transcript.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I make the same observation. I think the
5 answer of the witness was that he did meet officials, public figures, and
6 that then the next question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin was whether the witness
7 had any opportunity to visit the city.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that was correct,
9 Mr. President. Thank you. Perhaps the first one --
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...repeat it, because
11 it was translated in French, so I take it that the witness has answered
12 that first question. And, therefore, we would like to hear the answer to
13 the second question.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So, Witness, were you able to during that stay -- and I am talking
16 about 1993, that is 9-3 -- were you able to pay a visit to Sarajevo? Yes
17 or no.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Your answer was "yes," Witness. Can you briefly tell
20 us which areas of Sarajevo were you able to visit.
21 A. We flew into Sarajevo and landed on the Butmir airfield.
22 Regrettably, none of the hosts met us there. And there was a Ukrainian
23 officer instead who came to the airport and took us to the town in an
24 APC. We were driving in this APC through town, and since hospitals were
25 open, we were able to see just before the entrance into Sarajevo some
1 devastation, destroyed buildings. And then we saw the building belonging
2 to the Oslobodjenje newspaper. We also passed by residential buildings,
3 and then we finally arrived at the Holiday Inn Hotel. We were unimpressed
4 by the destruction of the Unis building and other buildings in Sarajevo.
5 Q. I will stop you now. I am stopping you, Witness. I shall come
6 back to what you have told us about your impressions, but were you able to
7 visit what at times is called Stari Grad, that is, the Old Town, the old
8 historic part of Sarajevo? Yes or no.
9 A. Yes, I have visited it.
10 Q. I am now coming back to what you have just told us. Where did you
11 stay, Witness, during your sojourn there?
12 A. I stayed in the hotel Holiday Inn.
13 Q. Thank you. I would like to know with regard to the Holiday Inn,
14 did you have electricity? Did you get water normally, that is, was the
15 water running in your rooms? That is, could you -- did you have access to
16 all -- to things that usually are called urban utilities?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Maybe this question sounds strange but were you getting poor, cold
19 meals or were you having your meals normally, that is, whether you were
20 getting hot food and meals which were up to the standard of that hotel?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Yes to what?
23 A. We had normal warm breakfasts with normal, generally accepted and
24 Balkan meals, we had bread, butter, jam, coffee. We had our lunches
25 regular. We had soup, we had the main course, and of course there was no
1 great versatility, but at the same time we had normal meals, and the same
2 I can say about dinners.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to slow down a little bit because it is
6 still difficult for the interpreters to follow you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We are not going very fast.
9 Q. Witness, I am going to proceed about the devastation that you
10 mentioned. When you are talking about the devastation, could you perhaps
11 locate this geographically, if this is the case, in such-and-such a place
12 in Sarajevo? Yes or no.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 Seeing that you have given us an affirmative answer, could you
16 tell us in general, Witness, what were the areas, the places, where this
17 devastation had taken place essentially, generally?
18 A. Well, in general, I have already mentioned it was that segment of
19 the road which was passed from the airport to the intersection where you
20 enter the city. We -- there I observed a lot of ruins; some houses had no
21 roofs, and some houses were comprised of just walls. And then on the
22 right side of you go from the airport, I could observe the building
23 Oslobodjenje, which I already mentioned, and two buildings of Unis next to
24 the hotel Holiday Inn. And that was quite impressive and that was a sad
25 impression, I should say, and also the building of the former -- the
1 former building of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It used to be a
2 huge skyscraper, and I could see it was ruined. And also we saw the hotel
3 Europa from the centre of the city and there I could see only walls
4 remaining from that building.
5 Q. Witness, when you are telling us about the areas that you crossed
6 to get to the centre, do you know if these areas, these neighbourhoods,
7 were located on or in the vicinity of the front line?
8 A. Well, I think that if we take, for example, the building of Unis
9 and the former building of the government, I think they were close to the
10 line of front. And if we consider the buildings near the airport, those
11 buildings, then I would say that, as far as I understand, they were far
12 from the line of the front. Maybe I am wrong.
13 Q. Very well. But, Witness, do you know or don't you: At the time,
14 where was the front line or the front lines? Did you know that at that
16 A. No. We were told that the front line was on the other side. If
17 you go towards the centre, then on the right side behind the river -- if
18 we can it the centre of the city.
19 Q. The river, what river? Could you please specify it.
20 A. Which -- which there was the attempt on Ferdinad [phoen] and I
21 don't remember the exact title. It was a bridge. The bridge which
22 separates Sarajevo into two parts, that is the river.
23 Q. Thank you, Witness. I would now like us to focus in a position to
24 the ferry, perhaps if we could focus on the centre, you visited these
25 areas. And did you go on several occasions in these neighbourhoods in the
1 centre, in the Old Town, Stari Grad, and so on?
2 A. Well, we were taken into several areas and to the centre, for
3 example, we were also in the area and close to the stadium where the
4 Olympic Games used to be held. And we also visited once the central
5 clinical hospital of Sarajevo.
6 Q. The central hospital of Sarajevo. Does it have a name?
7 A. Well, we were told that this is the central hospital of the city
8 located somewhere in Kosevo. I am not sure, but maybe I am wrong, but
9 this is as far as I believe what I was told.
10 Q. Very well.
11 We will come back later to the hospital. I would like us to focus
12 on the centre now. In the city of Sarajevo did you see -- and I am not
13 talking about governmental or presidential buildings or other buildings of
14 this nature. I am talking about buildings, residential buildings. Did
15 you see important devastation there? Yes or no.
16 A. No.
17 Q. If you didn't see considerable devastation during your stay in
18 Sarajevo, did you hear in this central Sarajevo, did you hear with your
19 own ears a noise of explosions of shells, shell exploding in the city
20 centre, not in the suburbs?
21 A. No, I did not hear them.
22 Q. In this period, Witness, did you hear a specific noise of what we
23 call the PATs, of what we call the anti-tank cannons firing in the city?
24 MR. STAMP: I think before the witness would be able to answer
25 that, a proper question, we should perhaps inquire whether the witness
1 knows what the subject of the matter is, which is a PAT, an anti-tank
2 cannon, if he knows that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think the first proper question
4 would be whether the witness could differentiate between the sound of
5 the -- yes, please proceed.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly, yes.
7 Q. Witness, I apologise. This is my fault. I should have started
8 with this question: Are you able with your experience, to tell apart with
9 your ear the noise of, for instance, a tank firing, of a heavy
10 machine-gun, or an anti-aircraft cannon? Is it possible? Could you
11 distinguish that?
12 A. [No translation].
13 Q. Now, to convince everyone, how is it possible to distinguish that,
14 although there is no interpretation, I am told, and the answer was
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please make longer pauses
17 before asking a question. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] You are being asked to make longer
19 pauses during your interrogation.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes thank you.
21 Q. Now, in order to clarify this, Witness, could you please tell us:
22 How is it possible to distinguish a cannon fire -- cannon firing, a heavy
23 machine-gun, or an anti-aircraft cannon with your ear?
24 A. Well first of all, as far as I know, a tank has a fairly large
25 shell, it uses a fairly large shell, and therefore the noises that it
1 produces is quite heavy. So one can usually distinguish this in an audio
2 sense quite easily.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think I invited you to put the
4 question to the witness not whether it was possible, but whether the
5 witness could do that. Because your question was about specific noises he
6 could identify.
7 Can you make such distinctions between the different weaponry
8 being fired? Because your answer included "as far as." Can you do that
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Thank you. Therefore, Witness, during your stay in 1993, did you
13 hear, first of all, cannon firing on the city; then secondly, heavy
14 machine-gun firing on the city; and three, anti-aircraft cannon firing on
15 the city? Yes or no.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. You told us earlier, I believe you said that you speak
18 Serbian. Can you confirm this, please.
19 A. Yes, I did say that in Serbian.
20 Q. You speak Serbian?
21 A. I speak Serbian.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you have the possibility of speaking directly
23 without an interpreter with the inhabitants of Sarajevo at the time?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you able to -- or what did you talk about with these people,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 generally speaking?
2 A. We talked them -- we, as journalists, asked people how they lived
3 in Sarajevo. We also asked them about what was going on, why did the war
4 break out. We asked the people how was life for them and whether they
5 lacked something, and we usually got typical answers from people,
6 regardless of their ethnic origin. They said they didn't -- they usually
7 said that they didn't have water, electricity, natural gas, and so on, but
8 that they had this very natural desire to fight, to preserve, normal
9 living conditions in their town.
10 Q. Thank you, Witness. If you were to describe the state of mind,
11 how would you do that? What words would you use to tell us how the people
12 in Sarajevo felt at the time according to your own experience and
13 according to your personal contacts that you had?
14 A. I could say that those people were quite depressed by what was
15 going on in the town and all the things that they lack; however, they had
16 a very strong surviving spirit.
17 Q. Were you told, for instance, if -- that -- if people were
18 committing suicides more frequently? Yes or no.
19 A. No, I didn't notice that, but I learned about it later on.
20 Q. In respect of the people in Sarajevo as well, did you see, during
21 your stay, wounded or perhaps people who were killed not in hospitals, but
22 in the streets of Sarajevo? Yes or no.
23 A. Not on the streets, no.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would not mind, I would
25 like to ask one question to the witness, since he just told us that you
1 were not told that people were committing suicides more frequently, but
2 that you didn't notice that at that time, but you learned about it later
3 on. But what did you learn?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, when I came back to
5 Sarajevo, I had a conversation with my colleagues, and I received quite a
6 lot of information from western sources, and was told that there were
7 quite frequent suicide cases in Sarajevo. But while I was there, while I
8 was in Sarajevo, there was no talk of that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Now, Witness, if we can please come back to the streets of
12 Sarajevo. Was it possible for you to see - and believe it was - to see
13 people and there were people who were civilians and people who were
14 soldiers during your visit of Sarajevo neighbourhoods?
15 A. People in uniforms and with weapons were military, and people in
16 civilian clothes were civilians. There were both kinds of people in the
18 Q. When you are telling us about people in uniform in Sarajevo, and
19 since you tell us that they were armed, could you tell us what type of
20 weapons did they carry?
21 MR. STAMP: Mr. President --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is difficult for me to say --
23 MR. STAMP: Perhaps an objection is a little bit too late --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please use your microphone in such a way
25 that I can better hear you.
1 MR. STAMP: I am sorry. Perhaps the objection might be a little
2 bit too late because counsel has already -- or what appears to be of a
3 leading question. But it might have been the transcript. Can I be
4 directed, if counsel would assist me, as to the part of the transcript
5 where the witness said that he saw persons who were armed. I have it here
6 in one of the questions counsel said, "and since you tell us that they
7 were armed." I am afraid I did not see that part in my transcript.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, do I in on page 16 and line 10, "people
9 with uniforms and with weapons." That is what I understood to be armed of
10 the next question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So he inquired what weapons, yes.
11 MR. STAMP: Yes, thank you very much, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. I think it was an unnecessary
13 interruption, Mr. Stamp, but please take care of that. Please proceed,
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You were asking what weapons the witness then saw the
18 people wearing. Please answer that question, Mr. Kacalin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I am not sure that I
20 heard the answer.
21 Q. Witness, could you tell us what was your answer to the question,
22 the legitimate question that I asked before I was interrupted: What type
23 of weapons were these people carrying? Can I help you perhaps, were they
24 large weapons or were they personal weapons and so on?
25 A. I saw people with pistols. They used to call them T-T pistols,
1 Yugoslav make. People used to show those pistols to me. And I also saw
2 automatic rifles.
3 Q. Could you tell us, what type of automatic rifle, if you can.
4 A. It was generally a Kalashnikov automatic rifle, well-known in the
5 whole world.
6 Q. AK-47 type?
7 A. I don't know. I can't distinguish the 47. It was a Kalashnikov,
9 Q. Witness, to the best of your recollection, all the soldiers that
10 you were able to see in the city, were they all armed?
11 A. Well it is difficult to claim now whether all of them -- not all
12 of them had them. But I talked to officers of the Bosnian army and the
13 general from that army, and there were armed people there. In the place
14 where I lived, there were members of the Bosnian army and they were armed
15 and I saw them.
16 Q. Thank you very much. These people that you saw still in the city
17 of Sarajevo, were they visible in small quantities, one soldier here, one
18 over there, or were they in small groups or in perhaps larger groups?
19 What can you tell us on this subject please.
20 A. Well, I can't remember whether I saw groups. But I did meet
21 soldiers. I couldn't tell you whether they were privates or officers,
22 senior or junior officers. But it is true that we saw armed people in
23 town and that we saw a lot of them in the barracks, yes, I can confirm
25 Q. Thank you. These soldiers, how were they moving about, on foot,
1 or perhaps did you see that this was the case, using other means of
3 A. They were mostly walking. The soldiers were on foot, but we
4 didn't walk about the city that often so as to believe able to see a large
5 number of armed people there.
6 Q. Thank you. Witness, you were, however, able to see, I believe,
7 several neighbourhoods in the city. Is that correct? Yes or no.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Were you able to see that this city had a number of
10 cultural and/or religious monuments?
11 A. We visited the mosque, the central mosque which has been
12 remodelled lately; it was just slightly damaged. We entered the mosque
13 and we saw the praying of people there. We also went to the Catholic
14 church. We met with the Catholic cardinal of Sarajevo, and we also met
15 with the chief mufti [phoen] of Sarjevo, Mr. Ceric, if I remember him
17 Q. Thank you. Witness, telling us about the mosque, were you able to
18 see with your own eyes possible -- and I am stressing this word --
19 possible examples of mosques that were destroyed, that is, shelled and so
20 on? Yes or no.
21 A. No, most likely not.
22 Q. When you were in Sarajevo, were minarets damaged as such,
23 generally speaking, or in a considerable way, to a considerable degree?
24 A. There was partial damage. I just can't remember right now, but as
25 far as the central mosque is concerned, everything was in order there.
1 There were just traces of shells or bullets. Yes, that's true. But it
2 was difficult to say how many minarets were damaged because there is such
3 a large number of minarets in Sarajevo, a huge number.
4 Q. Did you yourself know about one single minaret that was destroyed
5 in Sarajevo?
6 A. Unfortunately, I don't remember.
7 Q. Very well. I am going to come back to the destruction of
8 buildings. Do you know, Witness, what was occasionally in Sarajevo called
9 a pavement rose?
10 A. Yes. I saw such traces, yes.
11 Q. Could you perhaps confirm if this is the case, what, in your
12 opinion, is a "pavement rose," so that we know that we are talking about
13 the same thing.
14 A. Well, when there is a depression in the pavement and if they are
15 there -- I don't know how to call them properly. Whether branches of a
16 rose and they are going in a different direction. There is simply a
17 depression and shrapnel traces in the pavement in different directions.
18 So one can tell that this is where the shell landed in the pavement.
19 Q. Very well. When you were in Sarajevo in 1993 in the
20 neighbourhoods that you visited, did you see many such pavement roses in
21 the city? Yes or no.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you pay attention to the state of the buildings that were
24 around you, that were surrounding you, particularly the roofs? In 1993,
25 in July, how would an observer see the roofs of the neighbourhoods that
1 you visited? And I am from this question excluding large official
2 buildings. I am talking about normal houses in the Old Town.
3 A. So excluding large buildings. Well, excluding these buildings, I
4 already talked told to you about the road that went from the airport to
5 Sarajevo, and there were a lot of destroyed houses there, a number of them
6 without roofs. I didn't count how many because we passed through the road
7 quite quickly. But there were such houses, yes, there were.
8 Q. Very well. Witness, your answer that you gave me is to do with
9 the peripheral of areas that you have to cross in order to get to the
10 centre. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. But now I am asking you a question in relation to the
13 neighbourhoods in the centre of Sarajevo. So that is relatively far away
14 from the combat areas, for instance, Bascarsija and others. What did they
15 look like?
16 A. Well, it seemed to me that in the centre of town, there were no --
17 not that many small houses and there were no houses with roofs missing.
18 However, if one looked from the Holiday Inn building, then one could see
19 up there in the hills, those houses that were damaged. Yes, if looking
20 from the hotel, one could see such buildings in the distance, yes.
21 Q. Witness, could one, therefore, at the time distinguish with regard
22 to destruction between areas called peripheral and central zone? Yes or
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Witness, according to you, this difference was reflected in
1 what, that is, where were the areas of major destruction? Was it along
2 the peripheral or was it in the central area?
3 A. My worst impressions were from the peripheral areas near the
4 airport. But in the centre of the city on large buildings, some of the
5 window panes were shattered, some of them were hit by shells. You could
6 see that there were strafed by bullets from machine-guns and automatic
7 rifles. But as far as damage of the kind that prevents you from living in
8 them, people managed. They closed holes with all sorts of materials
9 plastic polyethylene, whatever, and continued to live there.
10 Q. Witness, perhaps I shall come back to this. But these are tall
11 buildings that we are talking about, these are public buildings, aren't
13 A. I am talking about residential buildings.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: No, no --
16 JUDGE ORIE: You were -- about to explain about the leading --
17 MR. STAMP: Well, the witness answered.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The witness answered, and I take it the objection
19 doesn't stand anymore.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
21 Q. I am now going back to the buildings. You tell us about these
22 residential building, so why -- no, first: Where would you say those
23 buildings are, in peripheral areas or in non-peripheral areas?
24 A. I am now talking about the places which were not far from the
25 Holiday Inn Hotel. In fact, my impression of Sarajevo is as if it
1 consisted of one long street leading to the centre. And the areas I am
2 talking about was Alipasino Polje, Alipasino field, where the UN
3 headquarters are now, and the buildings lining that street. Some of the
4 residential buildings there that I saw were damaged. I don't know in the
5 course of which battles, but the window panes were shattered. You could
6 see bullet holes on them. And there were two destroyed buildings which
7 produced most awful impression on me, the Unis company building, and one
8 government building which is still standing. I visited Sarajevo again in
9 the March of this year on a business trip to make story about the 10th
10 anniversary of the Dayton Accord. So I was on mission there recently, and
11 some of the things remain standing as I had seen them in 1993.
12 Q. Witness, when you talk to us about Alipasino Polje, but saying
13 that it is in front of the current UN building, don't you think -- and
14 unfortunately I have to ask a leading question, Mr. President, because I
15 have no other way of putting this question -- one would say that that was
16 another area, an area which was called Vojnicko Polje rather?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it is my recollection that the
18 transcript tells me that the witness did not say that Alipasino Polje was
19 in front of the current UN building, but his testimony was that Alipasino
20 Polje is where the UN headquarters are now.
21 So did I understand you well that you said that the UN
22 headquarters are in an area you know as Alipasino Polje?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not asserting it is Alipasino
24 Polje. I am just saying that this piece of Sarajevo where the UN building
25 is standing now and next to it, right next to it, they are building a new
1 mosque. I am talking about the residential area there that we had seen at
2 the time, and where we had seen damage.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
5 Q. And apart from those residential buildings, in the part which is
6 more to the east if I am correct, that is, closer to Stari Grad after
7 Alipasino Polje towards the centre, did you see there any other
8 destruction which would be comparable? Yes or no. I am talking about
9 residential buildings.
10 A. No.
11 Q. And these residential buildings, how many floors, more or less,
12 did they have?
13 A. 15 or 20. Those were high-rise building.
14 Q. Do you know if it was possible to fire across there with some
15 firearms, whether it be hunting rifles, snipers but through these
16 buildings? Yes or no.
17 A. I think it was quite possible.
18 Q. I shall rephrase my question.
19 I was not saying "firing from these buildings," but going through
20 the buildings, bullets going through these buildings.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me first ask one question to
22 the witness: The question to you was whether with hunting rifles or
23 snipers it would be possible to fire through these buildings, that is what
24 my transcript says. And your answer was, "I think it was quite possible."
25 Is this a misunderstanding or --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it seems I misunderstood. Of
2 course it is a misunderstanding. From a hunting rifle, it is absolutely
3 impossible to fire in such a way as to hit the building through. Maybe
4 from another heavier weapon that was possible.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that would mean you understood the question as
6 "firing through an undamaged building"? Because I take it from your
7 answer that you are talking about firing through a building, breaking
8 through glass, walls, whatever would be in that building. Is that
9 correct? And you said, "That was impossible."
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness. My question had to do with a hunting rifle.
14 But am I to take your answer as an answer applying to all the personal
15 weapons, rifles, pistols, whatever? I am talking about light firearms.
16 Yes or no.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like us, Witness, to move away towards
19 the hospital that we visited, that is the Sarajevo hospital called central
20 hospital. You told us that it was at Kosevo, and we call it the Kosevo
21 Hospital. Was it a hospital around which there was a park? Yes or no.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Very well. And were there several buildings?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Could you see only one or several buildings of that
1 complex called the Kosevo Hospital?
2 A. I think it was one. We were simply taken to one of the wards with
3 patients, and we talked to the head doctor, he introduced himself as the
4 chief neurologist surgeon who had been wounded recently and had just come
5 back to work.
6 Q. Very well. So when you went into that building, was it the first,
7 say, in the park, or the second, or the third building in that park, or I
8 don't know? Do you remember that?
9 A. I think we were in the central building. We were taken to the
10 children's ward, because the ward we visited was occupied by sick
12 Q. Very well. Was it the maternity ward, what one calls maternity
14 A. No, it was not a maternity ward. The children were around 6, 7,
15 up to 10 years old.
16 Q. Very well. And during your visit to that place, Witness, could
17 you take note of the quality and the state that the building was in? In
18 other words, was it a building which was completely destroyed or I don't
19 know, or would you say to the contrary? What can you tell us about your
20 impressions of the state the building was in?
21 A. Well, practically all the buildings were intact. I haven't
22 noticed any damage. The hospital was operating normally. There were
23 doctors there who were treating patients. The hospital was operating as
24 in peacetime, as in normal conditions.
25 Q. And what do you mean by this?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. What I mean is that there were patients, sick people, and there
2 were doctors. People who had asked for medical assistance and were
3 receiving it in the form of surgery, traditional treatment, or whatever
4 else. The same way a hospital works in any country of the world, in
5 Moscow, here in The Hague, or anywhere else. A little better here, a
6 little worse there, but it was a fully functioning hospital.
7 Q. Were there, for instance, some things which were out of the
8 ordinary? I don't know, operating rooms or just rooms crowded with
9 people? Were there people in corridors, in passages, or did you see
10 anything that would be out of the ordinary?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Will you now please tell us about what you saw
13 outside, the park around, for instance, the hospital and those buildings?
14 Did it look damaged? Were there any damages or buildings? What could you
15 see there? Was it ravished by whatever -- fire? What could you see there
16 during your visit in 1993?
17 A. No, there was nothing of the sort. I will say again that that
18 building -- and we did not take a very close look of the workings of the
19 hospital -- but the impression at first glance was that it was a normally
20 functioning hospital, receiving patients, normal patients and wounded
21 people. We visited a ward with wounded children. We did not see crammed
22 corridors. Everybody was lying in normal hospital beds, treated by nurses
23 and other medical personnel. They did say that they experienced shortages
24 of medical supplies, that they had no proper facilities for blood
25 transfusions, et cetera. But, otherwise, they were working.
1 Q. Generally speaking, what state was the roof or roofs of the
3 A. The roofs, the roofs were normal; they were not damaged. When you
4 go into a hospital, you don't pay a particular attention to the roof. You
5 see that the hospital is working normally, and you don't see -- you don't
6 notice anything else.
7 Q. Did you notice a cemetery next to this hospital? Yes or no.
8 A. I am not certain. Most possibly, yes, but I am not sure because
9 in many streets in Sarajevo at the time, there were cemeteries. We did
10 not distinguish between Kosevo cemetery and another cemetery, but there
11 were a lot of them.
12 Q. You told us, sir, that you did not hear any shells falling on the
13 city during your stay there. I shall be more precise. Does this also
14 apply to the night to the nighttime? My question refers to
15 around-the-clock occurrences.
16 A. At night when we were already back in our hotel, we heard
17 automatic fire at a very short distance from us in the direction of the
18 river. It was not in the -- it was not the central street that our
19 windows were facing, but the other side. I don't know how to describe
20 it. We heard automatic fire from that side, and we could feel that there
21 was fighting in the street. Somebody was opening fire from automatic
22 weapons, and I heard bursts of automatic fire a number of times.
23 Q. We are talking about rounds fired from small arms or are we
24 talking about heavy weaponry?
25 A. Early from light weaponry.
1 Q. During your stay there in 1993, did you meet Sarajevo politicians,
2 and if so, whom did you meet, in the order of importance?
3 A. Well first of all, there was Mr. Alija Izetbegovic who was
4 President of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the leader. The second one we met was
5 Mr. Siljadzic. We also met with clergy representatives. I already spoke
6 of Mr. Ceric, and there was also the Catholic cardinal of Sarajevo. We
7 also met with representatives of the Jewish community, the Sefared [phoen]
8 Jews, and that's about it.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what did you talk about at the time
10 when you met with Mr. Izetbegovic? How and when did this happen?
11 A. This meeting was in the building of the Presidency. It is a large
12 building which still houses the entire leadership of the Bosnian
13 Federation. We spent a lot of time waiting outside in the street at first
14 before coming in. It is a building with large network of hallways, many,
15 many doors, and there were many armed people inside. But I found it
16 natural that it had a lot of security, because after all there was the
17 President and the Presidency. It was a rather long meeting.
18 On our side there was I and Mr. Nekrasin [phoen]. We were the
19 only two who were conducting this dialogue with Mr. Izetbegovic. We ask
20 him what the war was about, why it broke out, what was going on in Bosnia,
21 for how long Sarajevo was going to be in that condition, how the people of
22 Sarajevo were managing, what the life was like, how Mr. Izetbegovic and
23 his associates were maintaining contact with the outside world. He told
24 me that there was always a possibility to leave, but they always came back
25 because that is where they live and work, and that's part of their life.
1 It was a rather interesting meeting because Mr. Izetbegovic is a rather
2 interesting collocatur. He always goes in depth and talks about details.
3 I can't remember all of it now, but I remember it lasted an hour and a
5 Q. You tell us that Mr. Izetbegovic went into detail. Did he also
6 tell you what was it that -- what was -- what were the chief afflictions
7 of people in Sarajevo and can you tell us that?
8 A. He spoke about the fact that Sarajevo has a population where many
9 people were dying, dying from starvation, from wounds, that the town is
10 besieged, that it was impossible to break the siege. They had a shortage
11 of electricity, water, bread, light, that it was a city under a blockade.
12 And he said, We will all try to lift the blockade with our own means or
13 with the help of outsiders, but we will not leave it. Mr. Izetbegovic was
14 basically saying the same thing that we heard from other people, from the
15 men in the street, so to say. He spoke as the leader of the country.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I know that this is hearsay,
17 Mr. President, but perhaps it can be useful.
18 Q. When you talk about electricity, in the journalistic circles, did
19 you -- did you talk about the possibility that the politicians in Sarajevo
20 had themselves caused these power cuts?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: It is the hearsay nature of this, but it is a leading
23 question about what politicians --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall rephrase my question.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Whether something is hearsay can be deduced from the
1 answer. The question as such, if you ask whether this witness heard
2 something then, of course, the content of what he heard, would be hearsay,
3 but the fact that he heard something is of course not hearsay.
4 Please proceed and rephrase your answer -- your question.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
6 Q. When you spoke to us, Witness, about the blockade, it meant in
7 every sense outside, and inside, from the inside to the outside, do we
8 agree on that?
9 A. Well, the city was closed off, so we can agree it was blockade.
10 And the leadership of the city claimed that it was impossible to get out,
11 impossible for them, and impossible for the population in general. And
12 they said that huge efforts had to be made with the help of the United
13 Nations for them to travel anywhere over Mount Igman, on airplanes, even
14 to reach another end of the country, let alone go abroad.
15 Q. Witness, did you ask Mr. Alija Izetbegovic about more strategic
16 matters? For instance, how the defence was organised, how the weapons
17 were procured, and I don't know, many other questions of this nature.
18 A. As far as defence is concerned, I couldn't ask questions because
19 that is not my province. But everybody, not only I, but my colleagues too
20 were interested in knowing how Sarajevo is managing to defend itself
21 without having their own supply of weapons and no additional resupply of
22 ammunition. And Mr. Izetbegovic said that we have capacities for
23 manufacturing a certain amount of shells and ammunition, and we can hold
24 out for a while longer. That is approximately what he said. I am not
25 going to swear on the Bible about this. But he did say something to the
1 effect that they had the possibility of procuring weapons, yes.
2 Q. Very well. Did you ever -- Witness, you talk to us that it was
3 possible to procure weapons, and this, I guess will be my last question
4 before the break: Did you ever hear mention of specific operations
5 related to the import of weapons into the city in an illegal manner?
6 A. We didn't know about it at the time, but later on as the war went
7 on in Sarajevo it wasn't only 1993, but also in 1994 and in 1995, and
8 Dayton came at the end of 1995 and the accords were signed later on in
9 Paris. So during all that time, there was a lot of talk about the fact
10 that the Bosnians had a lot of opportunity to procure weapons from
11 elsewhere. However, I cannot make any claims regarding that because this,
12 again, was information from other sources. But it is very likely that it
13 was like this.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since you indicated that that was
15 your last question before the break, I take it that this --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before the break --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, of course. May I ask the usher to escort
18 the witness out of the courtroom, because I would like to just briefly
19 speak with the parties about the rest of the afternoon.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We have, until now spent approximately 70 minutes on
22 the examination-in-chief, and for this afternoon, there would be remaining
23 approximately two hours and twenty minutes. I urge the parties to see
24 whether it would be possible to finish the examination of this witness
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do you have any idea on how much time you would
2 still need to conclude the examination of this witness?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It will be shorter, as we have
4 said, and I say that for technical reasons, all of this lasts longer. But
5 if there are no other interruptions, than it will be shorter than I have
6 indicated earlier.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us how much shorter, because I
8 would like to make a planning for this afternoon. Would you still need
9 another 20 minutes? 30 minutes? 40 minutes?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Between 20 and 30,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So I then take it that we have -- let me just write
13 down 30 minutes for the -- for the Defence. That would take altogether
14 one hour and 40 minutes. How much time would the Prosecution need to
15 cross-examine this witness?
16 MR. STAMP: Certainly not more than that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Certainly not more than that. That means that I
18 expect the Defence to use 30 effective minutes, and then we will at least
19 be able to conclude the examination of this witness today. We will
20 adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed to examine the
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Witness, I would like us to come back to the examination. If we
2 can proceed in the following way: Before the break, we were talking about
3 the talks that you had with Mr. Izetbegovic. Did anyone, perhaps, ask him
4 any questions in respect to the existence of prisons in Sarajevo?
5 A. Such questions were not really being asked in principle, although
6 there were certain questions about this, but not on that occasion. I
7 don't think that we asked Mr. Alija Izetbegovic about this, even though we
8 knew that there were prisons in Sarajevo even before that meeting.
9 Q. You say that you were aware about existence of such prisons.
10 Witness, were these prisons for Serbs?
11 A. I cannot really claim that they were prisons for Serbs only.
12 There were Serbs in them too. But as any state, you have people who are
13 charged with something. So there are Serbs and Muslims, all those who
14 violated laws, so we knew about those prisons already.
15 Q. Very well. You were telling us about criminals. Didn't you ever
16 hear if in Sarajevo there was something comparable to a gang war was going
17 on, and if so, could you tell us more about it?
18 A. Well, once again, our colleagues journalists spoke about it and
19 people who have lived in Sarajevo for quite a long time lived there. I
20 believe -- I think it was the correspondent Abli Beresons [phoen], a
21 Frenchman or perhaps he was a Belgium. I don't remember. There was many
22 things that happened since that time. But there was talk that there
23 wasn't only a war between Serbs and Muslims in Sarajevo, but there were
24 also settling of accounts, as they would say in Russia, that is, when
25 people fold within Sarajevo, that is the opposing in the Muslim part of
1 the city, yes, there were groups which were fighting between themselves.
2 Q. Witness, so that we can understand you well -- so that we can
3 understand you well, when you are talking about groups that were opposed
4 to each other, are you talking about some isolated groups, some
5 individuals, or are you talking about some structured groups that were
6 part of an organisation that were perhaps armed and members of the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: That question is, as the previous question is, is
10 very, very leading.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is not only a leading
12 question, but on an issue that, at least, the Chamber understands is of
13 importance for the Defence. So would you please refrain from putting
14 these leading issues, if it concerns these kind of issues.
15 Can I ask the next question: What do you know personally about
16 these settlement of accounts or gangs fighting against each other?
17 Because you just told us that you heard something from a French or a
18 Belgian who stayed there for a longer time. Could you tell us exactly
19 what do you know by your own observation, by your own experience, and what
20 do you know from others?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, I will describe you an
22 incident when we were in the hotel and we heard gunfire at night next to
23 the hotel. And those were automatic weapons. So we asked a colleague,
24 Well, you have been here a long time does it happen often? Does in the
25 vicinity of the hotel there is frequent fighting? And my colleague
1 journalist - and I repeat, I do not know, perhaps he was a Belgian, but we
2 spoke French, and I can speak French, and that is why I could ask him
3 that - he said, yes, that such incidents were quite frequent, that there
4 was people who are squaring the accounts not between Muslim and Serbs, but
5 between Muslim themselves.
6 So I am not saying that there was -- that was something that
7 happened all the time, but this happened in the Muslim part of the city
8 and I heard it with my own ears. And I also -- one could see because they
9 were using tracing bullets, so you could see there were exchanges of
10 fire. And also my Belgian or my French colleague confirmed it for me. So
11 that is the only thing that I can say. I cannot say that this was a thing
12 that lasted all the time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether these persons or groups of
14 persons participated in, I would say, the combat between the main
15 parties? So do you know anything about that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as you know, in general, this
18 Chamber leaves it to the parties to examine the witnesses. If, however,
19 questions very leading come up on such issues, it might result now and
20 then in some additional questions from the Chamber at that very moment.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will just also
23 avail myself of this opportunity to call a technician because my laptop is
24 not working again.
25 Q. Now, Witness, you just told us about the existence of these
1 tracing bullets. Did you see them yourself?
2 A. Yes. Because we were on the 8th floor of the hotel, but we can
3 see it, particularly at night we could see that there was gunfire.
4 Q. When you saw these bullets, were you able to identify,
5 geographically speaking, where they were coming from and where they were
6 going to?
7 A. I am repeating: My windows did not face the main street of the
8 Holiday Inn, but to the south, to a south street. And where the snipers
9 had -- and it is difficult for me, besides, I didn't really try to follow
10 these exchanges, so where the bullets were entered and where they came
11 from. And it usually happened later, late in the evening and late.
12 Besides we were warned that it wasn't particularly advisable to stand by
13 the windows to try to avoid any undesirable consequences. We saw it once
14 or twice, and after that we were not interested to follow it further.
15 Q. But did you know if these shots were going from the city, since
16 the bullets were tracing bullets, were you able to see?
17 A. It was in a very small segment -- section in front of the hotel.
18 Because the hill started right somewhere right there. And it happened
19 there. What I can confirm is that it was in the part of the city that we
20 lived in; it was very nearby. It wasn't the fire coming from afar, it was
21 right next to the hotel.
22 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
23 Witness, do you know if these clashes caused victims or civilian
24 victims in fact? What do you know about this?
25 A. I know nothing about that, anything about what went on beyond the
1 hotel windows. Whether particular -- whether so many people were killed
2 on a particular night, we simply did not get that kind of information.
3 Q. Witness, I am now going to come back to your visit in the Old
4 Town. There, were you able to see recent traces or signs showing that
5 attacks were committed in the city? And what I mean by "signs" is some
6 traces, marks on the locations. Were you able to see those signs?
7 A. In the city, many buildings had bullet marks because the
8 aggressors were firing toward one another and bullets frequently hit
9 buildings. So one could see bullet marks in many parts of the central
10 city. And I saw it in many places. That is, not everywhere, but there
11 were such marks. There was fighting, and it attested to the fact that
12 there was a war going on in the city.
13 Q. Thank you. When you went back to Sarajevo after this first visit,
14 could you tell us at what time was that? What year? What period of time?
15 A. You mean when I went to Sarajevo next after 1993?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. So years from 1995, I visited several times. At that time, I was
18 already the correspondent from the Balkans for the Mayak Radio station,
19 and therefore, I travelled to Sarajevo at the -- I either went there
20 myself or with a group of journalists. So I went with a Moscow television
21 team, a cameraman, and another reporter. We made a series of stories and
22 sent them to Moscow so that in 1995, I visited Sarajevo on four or five
24 Then I went to Sarajevo three or four times in 1996, except that
25 at that time, it was so much simpler. I would think that in 1995, the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 deputy foreign minister, Ilisa Gajic [phoen] was there and he conducted
2 investigations with Alija Izetbegovic at the time, met with Siljadzic, and
3 also gave interviews for Mayak Radio station and for our television
4 station, which I used of course because that allowed me to meet and talk
5 to a number of Bosnian political figures at that time too, Siljadzic and
7 Q. Thank you, Witness. When you returned to Sarajevo in 1995, could
8 you please tell us in relation to the destruction, physical destruction
9 inside the city of Sarajevo, if there was any, if -- were there
10 differences between the situation in July 1993 and the time when you
11 returned some months later in 1995?
12 A. Practically nothing changed, that is this part around the airport
13 was as destroyed. Oslobodjenje building was as destroyed. Unis
14 skyscraper and others were still destroyed. The government building was
15 in the same state. That is what I saw in 1993 was what I saw again in
16 1995, 1996, and now there is some slight change.
17 I was in March this year, I repeat this, there, and I talked with
18 Mr. Petrisch and Mr. Klein and we talked a lot about how peaceful life was
19 settling in. That is, what I saw in 1993 is now being repaired, but in
20 1996, it seemed to be in the same state as if frozen, as on my first visit
21 to Sarajevo.
22 Q. Very well. You say the same situation. So in order to understand
23 you correctly, so between 1995 and 1993, is that what you are saying? Is
24 that what you mean?
25 A. Yes.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Witness, did you have the opportunity -- I withdraw that. I will
4 rephrase the question.
5 Do you know the people who lived in other districts in Sarajevo,
6 that is, the areas that were not under the so-called Muslim control, how
7 did these people live throughout the war? What suffering were they
8 subjected to? What do you know in your capacity as a journalist and what
9 can you tell about this to the Chamber? I am talking about other areas
10 you knew, for instance, the area of Grbavica, Ilijas, that is the
11 exterior -- external district that were in Serb hands --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
13 MR. STAMP: The question is compound. It contains leading
14 elements in each aspect of it, and I hesitate to intervene because of the
15 time situation. But the witness could have been asked whether or not he
16 made any observations of the areas outside of the Muslim controlled part
17 of Sarajevo, instead of tell the witness what the areas are, telling the
18 witness about suffering, and there are a variety of leading other elements
19 in this compound question which I object to.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't see how is this
22 question leading. What I was asking the witness was if he knew how the
23 people who were in these other neighbourhoods in Sarajevo, how they
24 suffered. And he could answer a lot or not at all. He could give any
25 answer. So it is not a leading question. Now, it is not a leading
1 question asking about the Serb areas.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It wouldn't be the first question, whether the
3 witness has visited the areas or whether he knows anything about it. And
4 suffering is leading to the extent that the neutral expression would be
5 what the witness knows about the circumstances of life, since the question
6 how there were suffering includes that they were suffering. To that
7 extent, the question certainly is leading.
8 There is no objection whatsoever to deal with the issues you want
9 to raise with this question, but the questions are leading. Apart from
10 that, there are several questions in one question.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Witness, first of all, do you know if Sarajevo was divided in
14 several areas, but I believe you have already told that to us. Could you
15 please answer with a yes or no.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Witness, what could you tell us, generally speaking,
18 about the war in relation to the other districts in Sarajevo, if, of
19 course, you are able to tell us something about this.
20 A. I can repeat that in 1993, I visited only the Muslim part of
21 Sarajevo. In 1995, I managed to visit the Serb part of Sarajevo. It was
22 with the support of the Russian battalion we were there. We could see
23 that Muslims were not only victimised by the war but the Serb side;
24 namely, that they lived under those very difficult conditions, and also
25 that they were killed and wounded among them and that they were also short
1 of medicines and other things. But this was later, as I said, it was in
3 In 1993, I repeat, we were only in the Muslim part. It was only
4 later I could also see in what way -- what things -- how things were in
5 the Serb part of the city.
6 Q. Witness, since you told us that they too suffered, if I understood
7 you correctly, because of the war and this until the very end of the war,
8 could you perhaps tell us, elaborate on this specifically. What did you
9 see at the time, something that would be of use for later, something that
10 you saw with your own --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
12 MR. STAMP: The conditions that might obtain in the areas outside
13 of those covered by the indictment might be marginally relevant, I would
14 submit respectfully, during the indictment period. But I would submit
15 that it becomes absolutely irrelevant when we are being asked about areas
16 outside of the indictment period and outside of the indictment area.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. President.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I respond.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has expressed many times that times
20 outside of the scope in time of the indictment may have some relevance,
21 although perhaps less direct relevance than those events that happened
22 within these period of times. So if the Defence would keep in mind that
23 the relevance, of course, is a different one, please proceed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Present, I will do it, but
25 I would like to make the observation that it seems to me that today there
1 is a change of the indictment today, since we are talking about a
2 territorial restriction above all and not a chronological restriction.
3 And the Defence would like to make this observation for the formal
5 Q. Now, Witness, when you returned to 1995, could you tell us what
6 time it was exactly. When did you go to Sarajevo? When was it, what
7 season was it?
8 A. We were there in August 1995. And after that, but at that time,
9 it was a very difficult to get there because we were travelling by car and
10 we travelled from Split and then escorted by an UN convoy, we crossed
11 Mount Igman, but on Mount Igman we were all left to our own duresses --
12 Q. I am going to have to stop you because we don't have enough time.
13 Thank you, but could you please tell us what were the communities that you
14 visited, the neighbourhoods, the areas that you visited yourself?
15 A. In 1996, we could move around freely because we were escorted by
16 our UN representatives and we were protected by the Russian Battalion. So
17 we could move around the whole city because we were in UN cars and our
18 cameraman was recording everything. So we had interviews with
19 representatives and this was a major interest in Russia because we are
20 selling gas to Yugoslavia.
21 So many questions: Well, why is Russia not delivering gas to
22 Sarajevo? And that is why we decided to make a story about the work of
23 the gas enterprise in Sarajevo. We were shown how it worked and we talked
24 with the representative of the gas company in Sarajevo. Then we went to
25 the Serb part of Sarajevo. We met with the leaders of the Russian
1 Battalion --
2 Q. Witness, I am sorry, I am going to have to stop you here. First
3 of all, I asked you a question in relation to 1995. Are you talking about
4 this period or are you speaking about a different period of time?
5 A. I am speaking about 1995. 1995 November, and that is why I
6 remember well because on the 7th of November --
7 Q. Very well. Thank you. If I have asked you that question, it is
8 just for the purposes of transcript.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: There is certainly an interpretation problem
10 in 43:6, Mr. President.
11 Q. Now, could you please tell us, what were the areas that you
12 visited, do you remember at that time?
13 A. To begin with, by that time the war was coming to an end. There
14 were negotiations at the -- Patterson base, that is, the Dayton Accords
15 were already -- Moscow wanted to know what was going on in Sarajevo at
16 that time. Was there a cease-fire, whether it was being complied with,
17 and how city lived. So we got there in order to tell the Russian
18 audiences how the city lived at the time.
19 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You spoke about the suffering during the
20 war very briefly. I have another two or three very brief questions.
21 Briefly, could you tell us how were you able to feel that? How was this
22 demonstrated in this areas of Sarajevo? Could you please tell us about
24 A. Well, how can a person feel himself if he comes to a city where
25 there is there is a war going on and has been going on for quite a while?
1 How can you talk to people who have lived through the blockade, people on
2 both sides. It is a tragedy, naturally, it is a tragedy for all the
3 people involved.
4 So as far as I see it, an ordinary man, regardless of his
5 patriotism, doesn't really care much about what is going on in the city.
6 All he cares about is his own life. It perhaps sounds pathetic, but it
7 was difficult to live through that war, and everybody had people killed in
8 their families, a brother, a child, somebody had people die in their
9 arms. So there were so many tragedies everywhere around. I don't want to
10 elaborate on this, but one could feel in the air a tragedy in that town.
11 And the impression that most struck me, especially in 1993, one
12 could always feel in this city that there was not a normal life going on.
13 There was something unnatural happening there. And somebody -- people
14 could feel that somebody living on the other side were fighting them.
15 There was an action and counteraction. I want to say that as far as the
16 Russians are concerned, the Muslims were more neutral with respect to them
17 than respect to Serbs. But I want to say that every time a journalist
18 came to Sarajevo, he or she took a certain risk. We knew how our
19 colleagues from CNN worked, how our French colleagues worked there, and we
20 knew that cameramen were frequently targeted by snipers. We know about
21 this. So it was very dangerous to work there at any rate always.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President,
23 just for the transcript, in line 14 and 15 of page 44, there is something
24 missing. I believe that we are talking about a blockade here. I believe
25 that the witness spoke each time on both sides about a blockade. I don't
1 know whether we are able to find it or whether I should ask the question
2 again. I think that perhaps it could be found on the audiotape.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could first ask the witness, did you
4 use the word "blockade," and in what context to explain us what, because
5 it does not appear in the transcript. And Mr. Piletta-Zanin tells us that
6 the word "blockade" was used by you. Could you clarify how and in what
7 context you used that expression, if you did so.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did use the word "blockade."
9 I said that my grandfather was killed during World War II. He was taking
10 supplies to Leningrad which was under blockade and he fell under ice. So
11 the blockade in Leningrad is something that I associate with the blockade
12 in Sarajevo. People in those blockades lived under unnatural
13 circumstances. They fought each other. There were shortages of
14 everything, of food, of medical supplies, and when I say "blockade," this
15 is something that I mean under this word, both in Leningrad and in
17 JUDGE ORIE: One of the Judges has now the audio. Do you have it
19 JUDGE ORIE: I have audio on four. I am just wondering -- yes. I
20 have audio on five as well. Could we just check whether -- yes,
21 Judge Nieto-Navia also has audio on four. Yes.
22 May I ask you one additional question in relation to the answer
23 you just gave. You were talking about a blockade and that the situation
24 in Sarajevo reminded you of a blockade. Could you explain, blocking who?
25 Because you didn't express yourself on that. Both parties blocking each
1 other? One party blocking another one? Could you express how you
2 experienced that.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it was a mutual
4 blockade; Serbs fought Muslims and Muslims fought Serbs. The town was
5 closed from all directions. I don't know whether the Serbs were able to
6 leave the area that was under their control, just like the Muslims
7 couldn't leave the area under their control. And the only links Sarajevo
8 had with Split went through a tunnel. And from what I know, people went
9 through that tunnel and would end up in Mount Igman. So the only supplies
10 that came in came in from the Mount Igman. So it was a double-sided
11 blockade. It was not a natural life that went on there.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Witness, very briefly, because I only have a few minutes left, I
15 would just like to know whether you were there and I have to ask a leading
16 question for once. Were you present during some sniping incidents in
17 Sarajevo while you were there?
18 A. Unfortunately, I didn't see that personally with my own eyes. But
19 my colleagues that attended funerals of children in Sarajevo at the time
20 saw a Turkish journalist killed at a funeral. It was said that he was
21 killed by a sniper, and we had no confirmation as to who had done it. So
22 there was a case of that and Irina Vogonina and Najasov Nagrasov [phoen]
23 And another colleague of mine can confirm this. They were present at a
24 funeral when this happened, and I heard it from them.
25 Q. I am going to have to interrupt you now. I am talking about your
1 personal knowledge, Witness, not about what you may have heard. We all
2 may have heard things, but you personally, were you able to see while you
3 were in Sarajevo, were you an eyewitness to a sniping incident?
4 A. No. I did not witness that. But I can remember now that as we
5 were waiting to have an interview with Mr. Izetbegovic, that building was
6 shielded from all sides by other buildings in the area. So I was there
7 with a colleague of mine from a paper in Russia, and we wanted to take
8 pictures of each other, and there was a part of open area there. And as
9 we crossed that area, it seemed to me that there was a sniper shot, and
10 that is the only thing I can tell you. That is the only thing I
11 personally witnessed.
12 Q. What was your impression of these facts? Not necessarily at that
13 very moment, but later when you thought about it.
14 A. My impression was that I was very lucky to get back to Moscow
15 healthy and alive, not being wounded. And the fact that I spent some time
16 in a city where there was a war going on and where people hated each other
17 so much that they were ready to exterminate each other. It just gave me a
18 feeling of very unnatural abnormal human relations among people who used
19 to be friendly to each other in the past and then all of a sudden started
20 fighting each other. So I had a feeling that all of that was not normal.
21 Q. Witness, my question was in relation to this event, to this
22 sniping incident that you witnessed, not on the totality of your journey.
23 Were you able to interpret this incident in a certain way? Yes or no.
24 A. Practically I was not. Because when we inquired who had done it,
25 they just said "somebody shot from the hill." And it was difficult to ask
1 any questions. If you had just recently been targeted by a sniper, then
2 it was difficult to put any questions. All I can say is that I was very
3 lucky at the time, and that is all I can say.
4 Q. Do you know -- Witness, do you know if there were any acts of
5 provocation from one of the parties, specifically in relation to trips
6 made by journalists?
7 MR. STAMP: Leading question. I object to it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Mr. President, I thought
12 that the procedure was such is that when there were things that were not
13 contested by either party, then we would let it go in order to save time.
14 But if this is really considered to be too much of a leading question, I
15 will rephrase it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I take it that the issue was not in
17 dispute, therefore you objected.
18 MR. STAMP: The issue as to whether or not -- and let me try to be
19 careful --
20 JUDGE ORIE: If we have to deal with it in the absence of the
21 witness, please --
22 MR. STAMP: The issue in a general sense that something might have
23 happened on occasion is not disputed. However, in relation to this
24 witness who spent a week approximately in Sarajevo, to put a particular
25 situation in his mouth, is in our submission, objectionable.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please rephrase your question,
2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
4 Q. Witness, were you targeted, you or your group, by other similar
5 shots like the one that you told us about in other circumstances, that is,
6 elsewhere, if I understand correctly, like the one a few metres from the
7 Presidency building?
8 A. It was only on that one occasion as we were waiting to have an
9 interview from Izetbegovic, and apart from that, neither I nor my
10 colleagues were targeted.
11 Q. Were you accompanied by people from Sarajevo at that time and that
12 moment, people who were escorting you, guards or officials from Sarajevo?
13 Were there any people like that with you at the time?
14 A. Yes. There were people escorting us. I think that there was a
15 Minister of Information of Bosnia-Herzegovina with us. We were waiting
16 there. And we were told that we were only allowed to stand in the
17 shielded area, not in the open area. And, yes, there were people there
18 who escorted us and who witnessed this incident.
19 Q. Very well. These people that were escorting you at the time, were
20 these people in panic, in particular panic because of the firing? Were
21 they running to and fro at that time when you were targeted?
22 A. There was no particular panic there. People were used by that
23 time to that kind of firing. But it was an uncomfortable situation and we
24 got in this incident because we were stupid enough to go into the open
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Witness, this calm and tranquility of your escorts, didn't it seem
2 surprising to you after the fact?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase the question.
4 We will rephrase it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is not -- if you put a question to a witness
6 which is leading and then you rephrase it, you might be aware that the
7 leading effect is not undone. So, therefore, I told you before, if you
8 use leading questions where they are objectionable, then you risk that
9 additional questions will be put to the witness.
10 Please proceed, at this very moment. The question was whether the
11 reaction of your -- those who escorted you surprised you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was practically not surprised, and
13 I will repeat once again, perhaps the translation was not right. People
14 were used to that by that time, so it was not unexpected for them. And
15 for us, it was a bit unusual.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The translation was perfect. We understood
17 you quite well.
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you told us that you would need another 30
19 minutes. That is now approximately 50 minutes ago. So...
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I forgot to tell you this was
21 my very last question, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Talking about surprises, the very last question
23 where there is no last question or very last question indicated before not
24 surprise this Chamber a bit -- no, let's remain serious.
25 Mr. Stamp, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
1 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp:
4 Q. Can you recall what week it was, what time it was in the summer of
5 1993 that you went to Sarajevo?
6 A. It is hard to say now. I can't remember exactly. I know it was
7 in July, but it has been nine years since. And I not only travelled to
8 Sarajevo, I travelled all over the world, so it is hard for me to pinpoint
9 exactly when I was there. But it was in July in 1993 when I was in
11 Q. Do you recall how many days you spent in Sarajevo?
12 A. I think that it was either five days or a week.
13 Q. How many times did you visit the Kosevo Hospital complex? Do you
14 remember if it was once or more than once?
15 A. Once.
16 Q. How long did you spend there?
17 A. About two hours.
18 Q. And the two hours you spent, was it inside this children's ward
19 that you described?
20 A. No. We were not only to the children's ward, we also went to
21 interview the chief doctor, the surgeon of that hospital who told us about
22 how the hospital functioned.
23 Q. So you interviewed the chief doctor in his office. Is that so?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The time that you spent at the hospital you were in the children's
1 ward and in the chief doctor's office. Is that correct?
2 A. No, not only children's ward. We went to several wards, but let
3 me tell you once again that it is difficult for me to remember everything
4 exactly. What particularly impressed me were the wounded children and the
5 children's ward. We also saw some other wards there as well, but most of
6 the time we spent interviewing the chief doctor.
7 Q. Very well. When you moved around Sarajevo, by what means did you
9 A. We were driven in a very old car which could be described as a
10 mini-van, Volkswagon, or a Ford. It was a Polish-made vehicle that
11 practically had no windows except for the window shield in front of the
12 driver. So practically all of the windows were blocked. And we were
13 driven very fast by a local [Realtime transcript read in error "legal"]
14 driver who knew the area, and he was our main escort, so to speak.
15 Q. The five days to one week which you spent in Sarajevo, were those
16 days spent in the Presidency side or on both sides? Did you visit the
17 Serb side on all of those days or was it on the Presidency side?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, has this question already been answered
20 I did hear you say that in 1993 you only could be on the
21 Presidency side, but when you returned in 1995, you also under the escort
22 of the Russians that you could visit the other side, was that -- is my
23 understanding correct? Yes? You are nodding, but nodding does not appear
24 on the transcript. Was my understanding correct?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry, I
3 am just going to have to interrupt, because I am not sure that I
4 understood well, that is, I am not sure that I heard the expression
5 "legal driver" which appears in the transcript. It seems rather
6 surprising to me. I don't know what it could possibly mean.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I certainly did not hear "the legal driver" but --
8 MR. STAMP: I think he said "local driver."
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is line one.
10 MR. STAMP: My translation was "local driver."
11 JUDGE ORIE: "Local driver," yes. Please proceed.
12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. You said that particularly in 1993 your impression was that people
14 could feel that there were or there was somebody living on the other side
15 fighting them. And the question is: The people that you speak of who
16 could feel that there was somebody on the other side fighting them, were
17 these people the civilians that you met, the ordinary civilians in
19 A. What I had in mind were not ordinary people. I knew that there
20 was an army on both sides and armies fought each other and people,
21 ordinary people, suffered.
22 Q. You said that the people were ready to exterminate each other, and
23 that was your impression. Was it your impression that the people in
24 Sarajevo that you met in 1993 were the victims of an attempt to
25 exterminate them; is that what you meant? I am just quoting from what you
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- The Defence knows perfectly
5 well that leading questions are possible in cross-examination but,
6 however, such a question goes much further than it an admissible, whether
7 the witness asked -- answered this in relation to both parties, I don't
8 think that this question is going much too far.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is not -- from a legal point of view, I
10 would say, asking for confirmation of one part of a double answer, might
11 as such not be impermissible. But, Mr. Stamp, you are talking about the
12 people in Sarajevo, which is a very unprecise use of wording at this
13 moment. Your impression that the people in Sarajevo that you met over --
14 that you met in 1993.
15 May I just ask you the following question: If you say that both
16 parties, that you had the impression that both parties were at a point,
17 even willing to exterminate each other, that the Serbs were willing to
18 exterminate the other party, which I would then define as the Muslims and
19 perhaps Croats in the city of Sarajevo while the inhabitants of the city
20 of Sarajevo were at a point of willing to exterminate the Serbs that were
21 in control of other parts of the city? Is that what you -- what your
22 answer was about?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I had in mind.
24 There was a war, a mutual war, on both sides.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, please proceed.
1 MR. STAMP:
2 Q. I understand that there was a war. What I want to ask you is what
3 you meant when you said what you said. Did you form the impression that
4 the ordinary civilian person on both sides of the confrontation line felt
5 that the other side was ready to exterminate them, and that they were
6 being targeted by persons on the other side?
7 A. I can repeat that I was on one side only, and talked only to the
8 inhabitants of Sarajevo in the Muslim part. And people were saying that
9 war was being waged against them, and that they were ready to fight for
10 themselves with the help of their army, with the assistance of weapons, to
11 the end.
12 Q. Was it your impression when you said that people could feel that
13 there was somebody on the other side fighting against them, and people
14 hated each other so much that they were ready to exterminate people on the
15 other side, that particularly in 1993, the people in Sarajevo felt that
16 they were being targeted from persons on the other side?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is the
20 second time that Mr. Stamp asked this question. I don't think that he can
21 ask over the same question over and over again if he has received an
22 answer already. I am talking about the fact that people were targeted.
23 The witness has already answered this question.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kacalin, there seems to be some misunderstanding
1 perhaps on your answers, where one of the parties says that its question
2 was clearly answered, where the other party says that, at least, suggests
3 that it was not yet answered. Let me try and see whether I understood
4 your answers until now, well.
5 Was your answer that you got the impression that there was a war
6 going on, that on both sides people would fight back -- that these people
7 would fight until the bitter end, and that in 1993 you got this impression
8 on the basis of your stay within the city, which would mean that you then,
9 at least, got the impression that the citizens within the city felt being
10 attacked by those outside the city, where perhaps later on you got similar
11 impressions when you also visited other areas of the town?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. You understood me well. That
13 is what I had in mind.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then please proceed on another
15 subject, Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. While you were in Sarajevo, did you become aware of allegations or
18 statements that there was sniping of civilians within Sarajevo by persons
19 from outside the confrontation lines? Did you hear of that while you were
21 A. We were warned before we left for Sarajevo that there was sniper
22 war in Sarajevo.
23 Q. Before you went to Sarajevo or while you were in Sarajevo, you
24 were warned about a sniper -- or my question is: While you were there,
25 were you told that civilians within Sarajevo were being sniped by persons
1 from outside of the confrontation line?
2 A. Well, I was a civilian who was targeted by a sniper, whether by
3 accident or not. But it could have happened to me, to become a victim of
4 a sniper bullet, and I was a civilian.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but may I ask you to answer precisely to the
6 question. The question was whether you heard of other people in addition
7 to your own experience, perhaps that there was sniping going on at
8 civilians in the city of Sarajevo from outside the city, whether you heard
9 that from other people, that is the question. So apart from your own
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Izetbegovic,
12 Mr. Siljadzic, the mufti, they all talked about that. Each one --
13 everybody talked about it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP:
16 Q. I am not sure if I understand your answer. You named some figures
17 of some significance and said that they talked about it, but then you
18 continued by saying "each one, everybody talked about it."
19 Did the journalists and the ordinary civilians in Sarajevo that
20 you spoke to speak about it?
21 A. Including journalists and civilians.
22 Q. And, of course, there were references to this sort of thing on the
23 international news media, including CNN.
24 A. Yes. Journalists spoke about it, the CNN or BBC, there were a
25 number of journalists there, representatives of the United Nations, that
1 is, this information was corroborated by all sides by international
2 organisations, inhabitants of Sarajevo, and the officials of
4 Q. And the same information in respect to sniping which you have just
5 told us was corroborated by all sides, did you receive that same
6 information in respect of the shelling of civilians within Sarajevo?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in relation to
8 the expression "by all sides," it seems to me highly ambiguous, if I
9 understand it as I read it, or as I read it as I understand it, it means
10 that all sides might be included, for instance --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the question was referring to the
12 answer just given. And I think that all sides is explained in that answer
13 and could create no confusion.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. STAMP:
16 Q. The question was, and the same information that you received in
17 respect of sniping and which you told us was corroborated by all sides and
18 was even on the international press: Did you receive that same
19 information in respect of the civilians while you were in Sarajevo in
21 A. No, there were no such incidents during my time there. I already
22 said that I was not there when artillery attacked the city. So it was --
23 there was no talk about it. But all of the western colleagues -- and I
24 shall repeat , there was a war going on and there was fire from two
25 sides. So it is very difficult when one side fired against the other side
1 silently, and the other one responded loudly. I repeat, there was a war
2 going on and there was fighting going on.
3 Q. While you were in Sarajevo in 1993, did you receive any
4 information about the shelling of civilians? Were you informed about that
5 in Sarajevo? That is the same question I asked you before. Could you
6 answer that question and then we will move on.
7 A. At that time when we were there, there were no such incidents, but
8 there was talk about it, that there were such incidents before we arrived.
9 Q. Did you -- sorry -- did you hear of an incident of the 12th of
10 July 1993 where civilians were killed and many wounded at a water pump in
11 the Dobrinja area of Sarajevo?
12 A. There was talk about it, but I did -- that is, people talked about
13 it, said that that had happened, that there was a story on the CNN and our
14 colleagues spoke about it, but I did not witness it. All I saw was the TV
15 shots of that.
16 Q. And did you go to Dobrinja while you were in Sarajevo in 1993?
17 A. I don't know what is Dobrinja. Because the part of the city where
18 we spent most of our time there, so we went to the airport through that
19 village which was completely destroyed, and we were basically only in the
20 central part of the city. And we didn't move anywhere further than that,
21 because at that time the movement was pretty restricted. We couldn't just
22 walk around the city as we pleased.
23 Q. I understand you are saying that you did not move very much
24 outside of the centre of the city where you stayed at. But what I want
25 explained to me is what you mean by "restricted"? Do you mean by
1 "restricted" that it was risky, it was dangerous to move in certain areas
2 of the city?
3 A. Well, had we -- if we went to the hotel in an APC of the Ukrainian
4 Battalion and from the hotel to the airport, it means it was dangerous
5 around there.
6 Q. Now, you said that you saw that persons were buried in the
7 vicinity of certain streets. Can you say why there was this practice?
8 A. I didn't see people being buried in the streets. What I am saying
9 is that we were told that there were a number of cemeteries around the
10 city because many people are getting killed or dying. But I did not
11 attend any funerals, so it is difficult for me to say. It wasn't on the
12 street exactly. It was former boulevards and near the stadium. But
13 Muslims kept saying that there were many people dying or being killed in
14 the city, and that is why there were many cemeteries.
15 MR. STAMP: I have no further questions. May it please you,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your
19 leave, perhaps it is necessary to ask once again two or three questions,
20 if I may.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It depends. You are allowed to ask questions on
22 issues that came up during the cross-examination. In general terms, as
23 you know, there is no opportunity to re-open the examination-in-chief. So
24 if you would tell us what the subject is and how it would relate to the
25 cross-examination, then we could consider whether your request can be
2 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not switched on.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. [Interpretation] Your microphone is not
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know whether it is
6 working. It should work.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I see that it is lit, but it should work. But
8 nevertheless, did the interpreters now hear the voice of
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Yes.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have three
11 questions, Mr. President, and they seem to arise from the
12 cross-examination. The first question.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you said that you had seen the
15 television coverage of the incident which happened on the 12th of July
16 1993, that is, shelling of individuals queueing for water. Can you tell
17 us, what was it that was recorded? For instance, was it --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are in chief. At this very
19 moment, you are giving -- you are starting to give a few opportunities.
20 Could you just ask the witness what he has seen on this -- yes, please.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. Very good.
22 Q. Can you tell us what you saw on television?
23 A. The CNN story said that people queueing for water were shelled
24 by -- that is, that they were caught in the fire and were killed. So what
25 we saw not that the moment of shelling, but people who had got killed
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 because a shot had been fired from a mortar. So that was the story which
2 was shown on the American channel.
3 Q. Talking about -- since we are talking about killed people, did you
4 see anybody else except killed people?
5 A. To be quite honest, I don't remember all the nuances, but I
6 remember that the principle story was that people who were in the water
7 queue, because there was a shortage of water there, had gotten killed.
8 The story was done -- it was very characteristic of American television.
9 The event and the commentaries, and that was that.
10 Q. The Prosecutor asked you about sources of information and quoted
11 CNN and BBC. What were your impressions about these sources of
12 information, that is, what did you think of the media during the war?
13 A. Well, since there were no other sources of information, only
14 western journalists were working in Sarajevo, so therefore the information
15 was only about what was happening in the city as they saw it. And I know
16 that a Greek colleague of mine worked of a long time in Sarajevo; he also
17 received several awards for this.
18 People -- people worked there and showed what was going on in
19 Sarajevo. And their colleague whose worked on the Serb side was showing
20 what was happening on this side. That is what I know. Other sources of
21 information, that is Russian journalists, or rather we had no journalists
22 from Russia who would be working for any of our television stations.
23 Christiane Amanipour who was CNN's correspondent in Sarajevo and stayed
24 there for quite a long time and journalists who were -- who worked in the
25 Serb part of Sarajevo, those were Vladimir Solovjov with a cameraman, but
1 they used to travel to the Serb part of Sarajevo from Belgrade. And they
2 showed the developments on the Serb side of Sarajevo, and western
3 journalists were providing information only from the Bosnian side of
4 Sarajevo. And we came for the programme Vlame to show how things were
5 inside the -- inside Sarajevo itself, but that was in 1995, that I went to
6 make some footage for that programme.
7 Q. You used a moment ago the term "to exterminate." I think that you
8 then explained very clearly what you meant. Do you know perhaps one
9 symbolic object, whichever, in Sarajevo -- I am talking about buildings in
10 the first place -- which could have been the object of destruction of such
11 destruction that would justify the term "extermination"? I mean, are
12 there building of cultural or something -- yes or no -- I withdraw the
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No more questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what the objection would have been of
16 Mr. Stamp, but I may draw your attention to the fact that the words "to
17 exterminate" has been used in examination-in-chief first, and then the
18 other part of your question had got hardly got anything to do with the
19 cross-examination on this specific word. But since you have withdrawn
20 that question, it is not relevant anymore.
21 Since the Judges have not just one but a few questions to you, I
22 think it is wiser to have the break now. So these questions of the Judges
23 will be put to you after the break, it will not take very long. We will
24 adjourn until five minutes past 6.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kacalin, Judge Nieto-Navia has a question for
4 Questioned by the Court
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 You told us that when you arrived to Sarajevo you were moved from
7 the airport to the hotel by the Ukrainian soldiers, I think, using an
8 APC. My question is whether that APC had windows, were those windows big
9 or small, and whether you could easily see the city?
10 A. Russian APC is a large vehicle and our entire group was able to
11 fit in there. So we were able to see through the little firing windows.
12 And on one occasion, they even opened a door and we were able to see
13 through this door. It was a moment when we were passing through a safe
14 area. So we did have quite an ample opportunity to see through, yes.
15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That is all the questions, Mr. President.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 [Interpretation] Sir, if I understand you correctly, your visit to
21 Sarajevo from 1993, the very first time you visited, that visit was about
22 the city of Sarajevo. And during your testimony you told us something
23 about a city that was completely destroyed. You told us about the village
24 that was completely destroyed. If I understand you correctly, that was a
25 neighbourhood or was that an area in the city or was that a village next
1 to the city that you had the opportunity to visit?
2 I am talking about page 60 of the transcript. I am going to quote
3 you in English [In English] "completely destroyed."
4 [Interpretation] Could you perhaps elaborate on this, thank you.
5 A. Yes, I can explain. When we drove in that Ukrainian APC, then we
6 saw near the airport the neighbourhood of Sarajevo or a suburb of Sarajevo
7 where the houses were practically destroyed. They had no roofs. Some
8 homes were completely ruined and some were seriously damaged. And then I
9 also said that the building of Oslobodjenje newspaper was also destroyed.
10 I saw that the window panes on the Unis building were broken, and also
11 Unis buildings were not destroyed but burnt down. These are -- these are
12 the examples of the destruction that I saw. I also mentioned the Europa
13 hotel that was also destroyed. So this road from the airport to
14 Sarajevo -- I don't know exactly what that area is called, this is what I
15 saw -- and also certain buildings in Sarajevo that were destroyed.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. So when you
17 say "village," what you meant, you meant a neighbourhood, an area in the
18 city, of the city?
19 A. Yes. That's right. Because that was a part of Sarajevo, a part
20 that was -- the part that was close to the Butmir airport.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Another
22 question, please: You spoke of injured children that you saw at a
23 hospital during your visit to the hospital. Do you know how were they
24 injured, by whom, in what circumstances, and what were their ages,
25 approximately, and their number? Could you perhaps tell us more about
1 this, please.
2 A. I said that there were children up to age 10 there, and there were
3 different injuries. We were told that they were injured in the course of
4 fighting and shelling, and that shells landed in children's play areas.
5 And I saw children without arms children with abdominal wounds. They were
6 serious wounds that I saw, and these are the children that were shown to
7 us. Now, as to where exactly those children had been wounded, we didn't
8 really know. It was enough for us to see these wounded children to get a
9 very tragic picture of what was happening in town.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And what about their number?
11 Could you tell us more about that? How many were there?
12 A. I don't know how many children were in that ward. Seven, eight,
13 nine. I can't tell you exactly, but there was a significant number of
14 them and the children had wounds that were serious enough to produce a
15 tragic impression.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
17 You also said that the surgeon of the hospital who welcomed you,
18 that this woman had also been injured herself. Did this surgeon tell you,
19 was this person injured during the work at the hospital or outside of the
21 A. First of all -- first of all, it was a man, not a woman, a man of
22 some 45 to 50 years who told me how he had been -- he did not tell he how
23 he has been wounded, he simply told me that he had recently just come back
24 to work and then he told me about his work and about the operation of the
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 My very last question, I apologise, but this is about something
3 that you said during your testimony speaking -- and I am going to quote
4 you -- you said: "That the city was suffering particularly in 1993." And
5 if I understand you correctly, it was 1993, and you only visited the part
6 of the city that was under the control of the Presidency forces. So what
7 you are saying is that the city that you described as a suffering city,
8 that was the city under the control of the Presidency, not the other area,
9 the area under Serb control?
10 A. I stayed in the Muslim part of Sarajevo, but as far as I know,
11 when we travelled from the airport to our hotel, as I was later told, that
12 was a Serb area. So the destruction that took place did not occur in 1993
13 when we were there, but earlier in 1992. This is what I heard from my
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So, just to check
16 something. When you say that the city was suffering, what you mean to say
17 is that the city that you saw or at least the part of the city that you
18 saw which was under the control or under the Serb authority or the city
19 "lato sensu," the city -- the entire city, because you spoke of 1993?
20 A. In the wider sense of the word, on both sides this was happening.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kacalin, I have two questions for you, both
23 concerning the hospital. You have described the hospital, including the
24 children's ward, as functioning relatively normal. You also described the
25 wounded children. You do not know exactly the number, but could you give
1 us an impression on what was the percentage of patients in the children's
2 ward that was treated for wounding, visible being wounded, and what
3 percentage for, I would say, illnesses that would not show any wounds to a
5 A. They show us only the ward for the wounded children. And as to
6 how many other patients there were there, we were not told that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I am just asking about those wards that you saw. It
8 might have been totally different than other wards. But what was
9 approximately the percentage of those treated for visible wounds and
10 compared to patients not showing, at least not that you could see, any
12 A. They showed us the wards for the most seriously wounded, the most
13 difficult traumas.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you correctly if your answer is that
15 the ward you saw was exclusively treating wounded people rather than
16 ordinary sick patients?
17 A. It was a ward only for wounded children. They showed this to us
18 in order to depict that there were many seriously wounded children there.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Next question about any damage on the roof.
20 You said you didn't notice any, but it was not your first -- the first
21 thing you would look at when visiting a hospital. Do you remember whether
22 these were settled roofs or flat roofs?
23 A. Those were contemporary modern buildings and they had flat roofs.
24 There were no ceramic tile roofs there.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would that mean that if you would be at ground
1 level, that if there would have been damage on the roofs, you might not
2 have seen it because the roofs were flat? If you would have paid
3 attention to it, of course.
4 A. We didn't pay attention to that but I will repeat, because I am
5 now remembering this, and it is most likely that the roof in the hospital
6 was not destroyed. The hospital operated normally, as usual, and it
7 treated wounded and sick children and adults.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers. Mr. Kacalin -- yes,
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you will give us your
11 authorisation, Mr. President, there is just one more question stemming
12 from one of your questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
15 Q. I will ask you to repeat -- yes, yes, thank you.
16 Witness, a question asked by Judge El Mahdi, you said that you
17 went next or through a Serb area from the airport, going from the
18 airport. Now, my question is the following, and it is a two-part
19 question: Firstly, this Serb area, did it contain considerable
20 devastation which is what I understood that you said; and secondly, was
21 this the part of town known as Nedzarici?
22 A. I will repeat that on the left side, as one is riding from the
23 airport, there was a village there first. And as I later learned from
24 Ukrainian officers, that was a Serb area. And there was serious
25 destruction there. The homes there were one- and two-storey. I will
1 repeat, we went through that part of the town, but I don't know what it is
2 called. Even now, I don't know that.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kacalin, this concludes your testimony in this
5 court. I know it is a long way to come to The Hague. I thank you very
6 much for coming and answering the questions of both parties and the
7 Judges. And I wish you a safe trip home again. Mr. Usher --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of
10 the courtroom, and may I, at the same time, whether they are ready to call
11 their next witness. Yes. Mr. Usher, could you bring the next witness as
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Can you hear me in a language you
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you are Dr. Lazic?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of
22 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
23 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And the
24 text of this declaration will be handed out to you now, by the usher. May
25 I had invite you to make that solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Dr. Lazic. Please be seated.
4 You will first be examined by counsel for the Defence. Is it you,
5 Ms. Pilipovic, or Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you will allow it,
7 Mr. President, first of all, your humble servant, myself, and
8 Ms. Pilipovic, since we have to work differently. Thank you.
9 WITNESS: MIODRAG LAZIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. I would be very grateful, as much as you can, to answer briefly,
15 if you can, yes or no answers, if that is possible.
16 Witness, what is your professional qualification, very briefly, in
17 a nutshell?
18 A. I am a surgeon. I am working at the clinical centre at the
19 clinical hospital in Nis. I am the head of the trauma department. My
20 title is that of professor. I specialised in surgery in 1976. I believe
21 that is all.
22 Q. Thank you. You say that you are currently working in Nis. Could
23 you tell us, before Nis what were various locations where you worked?
24 A. Just a moment. I see that on the transcript at 76, I finished in
25 1986, 86.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. I finished the faculty in Nis, and the specialisation. I have
3 been working all the time except for it time I worked in Sarajevo as a
5 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please specify what is this period
6 of time when you worked in Sarajevo.
7 A. I worked in Sarajevo from the 1st of November, 1992, until the 1st
8 of February, 1996.
9 Q. Could you tell us what made you decide to go and work in
10 Sarajevo? Could you tell us why? Why and how?
11 A. Because in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Sarajevo, there was a war
12 that was being waged, and I watched on TV and read in the papers. There
13 were many casualties. And the media said that there were not enough
14 surgeons there, so as a doctor and humanitarian, that goes without saying,
15 I wanted to go down there and help the people who, at the end of the 20th
16 century, were dying because there were not enough surgeons, and they were
17 dying from bleeding.
18 Also, the ministry of health of Republic of Serbia called upon all
19 the surgeons, anesthesiologists, and doctors of other specialisations who
20 would help people in the war as doctors to do their job. So I applied as
21 a volunteer, and I went to Sarajevo. Sometime in mid-October I arrived in
22 Pale. And from there on I went to the part of Sarajevo, which, at the
23 time, was under the control of the Serb force where there were no hospital
24 and there was no surgeon.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, you used the term "volunteer." What was your
1 status? Could you please specify that. What I mean, is your
2 administrative status. Were you, for instance, a volunteer, civilian
3 volunteer, or were you a military volunteer?
4 A. I was a civilian volunteer. I worked in the hospital in Ilidza.
5 I was not paid to do this. So it was purely as a volunteer and a
6 humanitarian. I worked as a surgeon.
7 Q. Thank you. You spoke about Sarajevo and about Ilidza. Could you
8 tell the Chamber if you visited other areas, apart from the Ilidza
10 A. The hospital that was located in the municipality of Ilidza
11 covered five Sarajevo municipalities, Vogosca, Ilijas, Rajlovac, Hadzici,
12 Ilidza and the settlement of Nedzarici. There at the time, there were
13 about 100 thousand people living there. And the only hospital at that
14 time and for the next year, perhaps less, I was the only general surgeon,
15 the only surgeon who was able to do surgeries of chest, stomach, and
16 internal organs. I visited all these municipalities for the duration of
17 the three and a half years during my stay in Sarajevo.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 Did you have an opportunity to also visit the Grbavica area?
20 A. I was in Grbavica only once, sometime at the end of 1995, after
21 the Dayton Agreement was signed, perhaps 10, 15 days later, before that, I
22 was not able to go to Grbavica, nor to the Sarajevo municipality
23 surrounding Grbavica under the control of the Serb forces, because it was
24 impossible, because the road went -- going through the airport was closed
25 to passage and if you went the round about way, it would take eight to ten
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 hours, and it was a very dangerous road. I had no reason to go there.
2 Q. Thank you. Doctor, can you tell us what kind of surgical
3 interventions did you perform in your hospital during -- at the time that
4 you volunteered there?
5 A. I did both war surgery and peacetime surgery, that is, as for the
6 former, all types of injuries of the chest, abdomen, and vascular
7 injuries. All types of injuries sustained at time of war. At the same
8 time, I also operated on the inhabitants who suffered from peacetime
9 complaints, which can happen at any time, such as appendicitis or ulcers
10 or similar complaints because there was no other hospital which could
11 treat patients suffering of peacetime complaints.
12 Q. Yes, I understand you were a civilian volunteer, did you -- your
13 patients, did they belong to one category or another category? What can
14 you tell us about that?
15 A. We had military patients and civilian patients, that is anybody
16 who has sustained injuries in that part of the city came to us, that is,
17 military and civilians, and I mean children, and women, and elderly, and
18 men, and soldiers, adults, that is all the categories of people who lived
19 in the area.
20 Q. And finally, to make it more precise, Doctor, you made a
21 distinction between the civilian medicine in a way and war medicine?
22 A. Yes, because of wartime surgery is pretty specific because there
23 are injuries inflicted with different weapons and tools so that this is a
24 specific area of surgery. And, of course, it depends on the type of the
25 weapon on the incidents of injuries, and, of course, whether they are
1 inflicted by heavy weaponry, what type of instruments, and so on and so
2 forth. And you also have, for instance, heavy artillery was used and we
3 have also called poly-tramatised, patients -- that is patients with
4 multiple injuries who are very difficult to treat and which are also
5 highly painful to those involved.
6 Q. Right. You tell us about artillery and other shots. But when you
7 speak about war surgery, wartime surgery, was it restricted to this or
8 that type of patients?
9 A. Well, injuries caused by different types of weapons and tools,
10 they did not -- they were not choosing terms of either sex or age, because
11 the area was densely populated. Military and civilians were mixed. So
12 that a possible case of shelling or sniping would cause injuries among
13 both categories, from children to other civilians, to the military.
14 Q. Doctor, can you tell us, if you know, what was the share of the
15 wounded in your hospital, the share of those who were strictly military,
16 and other wounded individuals? For instance, jeba [phoen] year to see if
17 there was any revolution of a time, if there was any?
18 A. What I can say, since I was there between 1995 and 2002 and I
19 wrote a number of papers on war surgery for our local and international
20 Congresses, so I have information between 1995 and 1995, 8.723 [Realtime
21 transcript read in error "1.723"] patients passed through the hospital.
22 About 68 [Realtime transcript read in error "60] per cent were military
23 wounded, and about 32 per cent were civilian wounded. Of that -- of the
24 latter figure about 470 were wounded children, and children are up to 14
25 years of age which means that everything fifth wounded civilian was a
1 child. On the average, it means that we had several wounded per day, but
2 this is only the main figure. At times we had one or two; at times we had
3 several dozen. Be that as it may, hardly a day passed without a wounded
4 and an injured.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For technical reasons --
7 JUDGE ORIE: May I just intervene, could the witness please repeat
8 the general number of -- as I understood from the French translation --
9 wounded and where the transcript says "1.723," is that the correct
10 number? That is the correct number. These were wounded as I understood
11 from the French translation? Yes.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.
14 Q. Can we clarify it -- yes, please, go on.
15 A. I see that the number of wounded was 8.123 -- 8.123 wounded. This
16 does not include people suffering from peacetime complaints. But 68
17 [Realtime transcript read in error "60"] per cent were military and 32 per
18 cent were civilians. So there is a mistake. 60 and 1.700, which means
19 seven wounded per day which does not mean we had seven patients every
20 day. At times there were less and at times there were more. So I am
21 talking only about the wounded. I am not talking about patients suffering
22 from other kind of complaints.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel's microphone is not on.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. To clarify matters, Doctor, the transcript, I see that it was 68
1 per cent of the military and 32 per cent of the civilians, then, if I am
2 able to add this up, it makes 92, and what about the rest or is there a
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do not know how your system
5 works but 68 plus 32, in my view, is 100. Your question is that you are
6 missing some, but I have some 100 per cent. It has been in the second
7 round been adjusted. That it was 68 per cent. I do agree with you in the
8 first round it was 60 and 32, but then -- yes. Please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
10 Q. [No translation]
11 MR. STAMP: I am afraid we are not getting any translation at this
12 part here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there is no translation of your question.
14 Would you please repeat your question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall be happy to do
17 Q. The question was: You also mentioned children. What can you tell
18 us about children whom you treated during your stay in Sarajevo, in
19 general terms?
20 A. I have just said that in accordance with the medical
21 classification, children up to 14 years of age. I also said that there
22 were about 470 injured children, either by infantry weapons or by
23 artillery weapons. So children were major victims. Every fifth wounded
24 civilian was a child. And you can find it all in my paper I presented in
25 Sarajevo late last year at the international conference on the suffering
1 of children which was the organised, I believe it was under the auspices
2 of this Tribunal with the sponsorship of the Dutch government. And at
3 this two-day gathering in Sarajevo, more than 100 papers was represented
4 and I was one of the orders. And I spoke about the suffering of those
6 So I can say they were wounded by both type of fire weapons. That
7 they were children who were wounded mostly in urban areas, and I think the
8 reason for it, that children as a category were most frequently in the
9 streets. And the shells which hit the asphalt ricochetted in all
10 directions, that is the reason there were so many wounded children in all
11 five Sarajevo municipalities.
12 Q. Very well, thank you. Doctor, how do you know explain the number
13 of wounded due to what you called "artillery weapons" that is, if I
14 understand you well shelling?
15 A. Every doctor can't distinguish by a wound inflicted by infantry
16 weapons and artillery weapons. That is, to make a difference by wounds
17 caused by different explosions, caused by major artillery weapons and
18 small arms. Doctors with wartime experience can also tell apart wounds
19 inflicted by artillery weapons and also can identify weapons inflicted on
20 such wounds on the basis of a major experience and a larger number of the
21 wounded, one can tell apart artillery weapons from small arms and the
22 wounds inflicted by small weapons are highly mutilating.
23 THE INTERPRETER: I cannot hear the counsel.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Will you, please, try to listen carefully to my questions and my
1 question is as follows: How does one explain the number of those children
2 wounded by weapons which you call "artillery weapons"? How does one
3 explain that high -- that large number?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
5 MR. STAMP: Formally, matters put on record, the objection to this
6 whole line of questioning. I was trying to be patient. But my friend is
7 asking questions about what appears to be incidents or persons who were
8 injured outside of the area that we are concerned about in this trial.
9 I think the point has already been made in respect to the
10 relevance of this apparent tu quoque of the issues before the Trial
11 Chamber. And secondly, I, on the basis of the evidence so far, I can see
12 no foundation for the doctor attempting to explain why there are wounded
13 from artillery or other types of weapons.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I asked
16 the questions about Sarajevo. If this is not about Sarajevo, let us then
17 erase forever from the indictment and General Galic can go home tomorrow.
18 Sarajevo. These are doctors who work in Sarajevo. You tell me that this
19 is not the subject of the indictment. Well we will change it and let's go
20 home, all of us.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from suggesting whether we should go home or
22 not, I think the main reason why Mr. Stamp raised the issue was the tu
23 quoque aspect of it. Could you please respond to that briefly.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Absolutely
25 not. That is not how I initialed Mr. Stamp, but we are not raising and we
1 shall not raise the tu quoque principle. What we are trying to say, and
2 hence the question, how can it be that this doctor knew so many children
3 who had been wounded by shrapnel of shells? There may be some technical
4 reason. And men who belongs to the trade who is a doctor perhaps can
5 explain it to me. Perhaps -- and I am quite ready to accept -- I do not
6 see how one can raise a question of tu quoque. It was -- nothing could be
7 further from us.
8 MR. STAMP: If I may just add one thing briefly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP: The main thrust of the objections is that the whole
11 line of questions about these type of casualties from these areas which
12 are outside the areas which we claim is relevant to the indictment. But I
13 would also invite the court to have a look at the -- well, I am not sure
14 if the Court received a summary from the Defence in respect to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: No. We have not received the summary you have got in
16 your hands at this very moment. We have the very, very brief summary, and
17 the Chamber invited the Defence to provide more detailed summaries to the
19 MR. STAMP: So I will not spend much time except to say that these
20 types of casualties, if it happened, and we are not denying that there
21 were casualties on that side, but further in the summary it is said that
22 this witness will also state that patients of Croat ethnicity from middle
23 Bosnia, Kisilak, Fojnica and other places were also treated in hospital.
24 It is submitted that the testimony is irrelevant. One can take the
25 counsel to go on for a time, but how far are we going to get into this? I
1 don't think we should go too far.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that at least, if we are talking
3 about the numbers just mentioned, that is 32 per cent of the wounded
4 patients being civilians, 470 children, is that contested by the
6 MR. STAMP: It is not without -- within our state of knowledge, to
7 be able to contest or not contest. It is not -- it is submitted not
8 relevant, especially having regard to the fact that we don't know where
9 these children are from. The summary seems to indicate that these
10 children could have come from any part of Bosnia.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, your summary indicates that
12 the patients came also from areas that were further away from Sarajevo,
13 does your summary indicate this?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I didn't hear it because I am
15 not wearing the headset, and my computer refuses to go any further -- oh,
16 sorry. No. Obviously, Mr. President, we are not saying that there were
17 patients. Perhaps it was the case. But we are not indicating that there
18 were patients coming from elsewhere, except the city of Sarajevo.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, I would like to see the summary. I think the
20 Chamber would like to see the summary.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I personally handed over the
22 summary, and Mr. Stamp did not say that. And I would really appreciate it
23 if he could say, and I would like to know why doesn't Mr. Stamp say he was
24 disclosed this document.
25 MR. STAMP: I am not contesting whether this document was
1 disclosed or not. I had it, so it is handed over.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The procedural issue at stake at this very moment is
3 that Mr. Stamp objects against certain questions since the summary
4 indicates that it might deal with patients coming from areas at a distance
5 from Sarajevo. That is what Mr. Stamp claims. I asked the Defence
6 whether this was part of the summary. The Defence said it was not. So
7 since the parties do disagree on what is in the summary, the Chamber would
8 like to see the summary, and whether it is given by Mr. Stamp, or by you,
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I take it that that is the same document. So,
10 therefore, we would like to see the summary.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let Mr. Stamp produce both
14 these documents, not only one.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If there are two summaries, the Chamber would like to
16 receive two summaries. Is there an old one and a new one or what -- how
17 do I have to understand this?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I added information today and
19 I faxed it to the Prosecution
20 JUDGE ORIE: So what you would say is that there was a previous
21 one and this is in additional to the previous one?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is right.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, do you have the previous one for the
25 MR. STAMP: May I just indicate that the first one was the one
1 that was submitted with the 65 ter --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. I haven't got it in front of
3 me at this very moment.
4 MR. STAMP: And there is a second one which is not very different
5 from the first. I have the second one here.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is not quite clear to me.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
8 JUDGE ORIE: We are just taking one second to read,
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Lazic, there is some confusion, and let's just
12 try to see whether we can get some clarification from you. You have been
13 talking about wounded patients. You have not given any further details as
14 where they would have come from. Could you describe to us from where they
15 would have come.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean children --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, I am talking general. First of all, Kiseljak and
18 Fojnica, at what distance is this from the city of Sarajevo? Do you have
19 any idea?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fojnica. So let me answer this --
21 or should I answer your first question?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Should we first do the distances and then where the
23 patients came from.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kiseljak, yes -- well I cannot be
25 precise 100 per cent before the war and during the war it was in Sarajevo
1 municipality, I am not sure whether it is still one, but it is about 10
2 kilometres away from Ilidza.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ten kilometers away from Ilidza in -- yes,
4 approximately -- Fojnica.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fojnica, I don't know, I didn't --
6 it is beyond Kiseljak, but I don't know how far.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you then please answer my first
8 question. What was the area your patients might have come from or from
9 what places? Can you clarify this? I am talking about patients in
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said that we had 8.123
12 wounded, I meant Sarajevo municipalities controlled by Serb forces.
13 Ilidza, Ilijas, Rajlovac, Ilidza, Vogosca, Rajlovac, Hadzici, and the
14 locality of Nedzarici. To this, one should add, about 150 to 170 -- I
15 can't give you the exact figure -- of the wounded from parts of Kiseljak
16 and some other parts controlled by Croat forces who came to our hospital
17 because that was the only hospital. So this figure of 8.123, about 150 to
18 170 were wounded from those Croat areas and who came to our hospital
19 because they didn't have a hospital of their own.
20 As for the children, that figure is accurate because I gave it,
21 four children wounded in Sarajevo. So 470 children from these
22 municipalities, not the Croat municipalities. So exclusively the five
23 municipalities covered by the hospital. I took out -- I took out that
24 figure for the conference in Sarajevo because that conference was on
25 Sarajevo. So with the exception of these five municipalities, we also
1 treated wounded from several Croat municipalities, that is, 150 to 170
2 Croat wounded. I can give you the names of those municipalities, if
3 they -- if it is important to you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think the matter raised has been clarified. I
5 think we can return the documents to the parties. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Know that it is the time
9 and we shall resume tomorrow. But could the -- actually confirm that this
10 whole line of objections concerning questions that we were asking about
11 Sarajevo, the Greater Sarajevo, is rejected so that we don't have to come
12 back to the same problem. So if the question concerns five municipalities
13 around Sarajevo, and I would like to Chamber to tell us whether this line
14 of objections is accepted or is it sustained or is it not sustained?
15 JUDGE ORIE: We will give you an answer to that question,
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin tomorrow morning at 9.00, and that will be in Courtroom
17 II, again.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much in
20 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Lazic, it is already past 7.00. We will continue
21 tomorrow morning at 9.00, not in this courtroom, but in a different
22 courtroom. But they will help you to find your way to that courtroom. We
23 will adjourn until tomorrow.
24 MR. STAMP: Before we do, is it --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. STAMP: Just to be concerned, are we sitting tomorrow morning?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, tomorrow morning. Mr. Stamp, we have changed
3 the scheduled today in view of the translation facilities. Therefore, we
4 moved to this courtroom. We could do it only in the afternoon. But
5 originally this was scheduled for the morning and apart from that it
6 remains the same.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
8 7.06 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
9 the 15th day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.