Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13759

1 Tuesday 15 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, very much.

9 Good morning to everyone in and around this courtroom. The

10 Chamber still owes you a decision on an objection made yesterday since the

11 existence of wounded patients and hospital cannot be said to have no

12 relevance at all. The Defence is allowed to question the witness on -- so

13 to continue its line of questioning. This does not mean that similar

14 questions on the same subject would be allowed for each witness. That

15 means for this witness at this moment, you may continue,

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 Madam Usher, could you please bring in the witness.

18 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. In the meantime, I

20 believe that I will need about five minutes at the end of this session to

21 address certain matters, perhaps some problems maybe. Just three minutes

22 or five minutes to include the response. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Dr. Lazic.

Page 13760

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You still hear me in a language you understand, I

3 take it, since you are wishing us good morning as well. Dr. Lazic, may I

4 remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave

5 yesterday.

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 WITNESS: MIODRAG LAZIC [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. For interpretation purposes, I am going to ask you to slow down

14 when you answer, please. Thank you.

15 Yesterday we broke off at the time when we were talking about war

16 injuries. And the question that I would like to ask you a the following:

17 How could you explain that children were victims of war injuries, that is,

18 of artillery weapons, as you said it?

19 A. Since I was in the part of Sarajevo which was under the control of

20 the Serb forces, and in that area, as I said already, there are about

21 100.000 people living there in five Sarajevo municipalities. And I can

22 say that throughout the war, all primary schools, secondary schools, they

23 all worked except when there were fierce clashes, and the schools were not

24 working then, which means that families and children lived in that area.

25 The children were going to school, moving about, coming back from school.

Page 13761

1 And because this is a relatively long period of time, children went out,

2 they didn't stay at home. They knew about areas where they were supposed

3 to go and areas where they were not supposed to go. But when there were

4 sudden artillery shelling or infantry firing from the buildings or

5 facilities that were on the other side of the demarcation line, casualties

6 were caused. Because, as I said, children were often outside. I have to

7 explain, there were a lot of wounded children. And because this is a

8 city, urban space, I am saying that the shells were falling on the

9 asphalt. So ricochets were very strong, very intense. And a lot of the

10 shrapnels caused injuries.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 Witness, every time I am looking at your testimony, I am

13 re-reading it, which is why I am not looking at you. You say that

14 suddenly shells could fall. What were the targets that were targeted by

15 these shells in the city, if you know that?

16 MR. STAMP: How could he know that? He is asking all that line of

17 questioning questions just inviting the witness to speculate well outside

18 of his competence.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

20 this is not outside of a competence of someone who may have seen shells

21 falling, that he may have seen what they were falling on. Perhaps it is

22 out of the competence of some people, but not of this witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in the Defence case, I think it

24 has been often argued that sometimes shells fall where they might not have

25 been intended to fall. Why don't you ask the facts, that is, where the

Page 13762

1 shells fell. And then we could come to the next question as to whether

2 the witness has any knowledge on whether where the shell fell was where

3 the shell was intended to fall. Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase or phrase my

5 question in such a way. That is what I wanted to say. So I am going to

6 ask it again.

7 Q. Doctor, do you have a knowledge on the location where shells were

8 falling, generally speaking?

9 A. Upon my arrival in Ilidza for the first two or three months, I

10 lived in the very centre of Ilidza, and because the work at the hospital

11 there was a lot of work and I was by myself. They had to take me about 20

12 times to the hospital and back, and the road was very dangerous. So after

13 two, three, months, I moved. And until the end of my stay in Sarajevo, I

14 lived at the hospital.

15 I went out of the hospital for the first few months so I would

16 travel to and from hospital, and I moved about regularly on a daily

17 basis. So I can say that on several occasions, I was able to see when the

18 shells were falling. And on several occasions was very dangerous for

19 myself included. I could say that knowing this terrain, the shells, from

20 what I could see as they were falling, they were falling on the urban

21 spaces. But it is a very densely populated part, mixing army and civilian

22 population. So one could explain that almost always nearby there was a

23 military facility.

24 So what I am saying is that civilian and military were very near

25 each other. The military facilities were very nearby. So it wasn't

Page 13763

1 possible to distinguish civilian facilities from military facilities, and

2 some civilian facilities were used as military facilities. So perhaps it

3 wasn't deliberately targeted, but there were civilian casualties.

4 Q. In other words, what you are saying is that in this Sarajevo that

5 you are describing, there was a kind of mix between purely civilian and

6 purely military facilities. Is this how I am meant to understand your

7 answer?

8 A. Yes, you understood me correctly.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 Witness, if I understood your answer correctly, you said there

11 could have been some firing errors linked to these problems. In the

12 Sarajevo that you knew, in the period of the war, were there many targets

13 that you yourself were able to identify as being obviously military

14 targets or of a military nature?

15 A. There were certainly many facilities in this parts of town since

16 it was a military unit, and it had its commands in certain parts of the

17 city. And commands were located in buildings. It had its quartermasters,

18 kitchens, and light and heavy weapons were located, and there were

19 soldiers -- soldiers were not stationed there. They would go to the front

20 line and return home. But there were a large number of officers and

21 uncommissioned officer whose were working there, and they were stationed

22 in civilian facilities in that part of Sarajevo where I was. Practically

23 before the war, there were no military facilities except for some barracks

24 they were outside of the urban area.

25 Q. Thank you. Doctor, since you have known these facts during the

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Page 13765

1 war, what do you know about the situation, about the other situation from

2 the other side of the line in Sarajevo about these matters that interest

3 us, that is, the mix and the number of civilian and military target?

4 A. I know this from several sources. First of all, from the medical

5 personnel and the people who, during the war, would leave the city under

6 the control of the Muslim forces and would cross over to the parts of the

7 town that was under control of Serb forces. Also on TV, because you were

8 able, in the city, to watch both the Serb TV and the Bosnia-Herzegovina TV

9 and the Croatian TV, I was able to watch on a daily basis what was

10 happening in that part of town. And also, with the naked eye, I was able

11 to see the parts of town that were under the control of the Muslim

12 forces.

13 So the demarcation line was so small, sometimes a street,

14 sometimes half a street, somewhere it was one house. And then there were

15 some buildings where six or seven doors were Serb, under the control of

16 Serb forces the other immediate Muslim forces. It was a very narrow

17 space. So with the naked eye, you were able to see. So officially, just

18 ten days after I arrived going along a street in Ilidza, I literally went

19 into the part of town which was not under the Serb control it was the

20 Butmir locality. So this is a very narrow space, and it is possible to

21 know what is happening on both sides.

22 Q. Very well, Doctor.

23 Now, to summarise, what was the situation on the other side of the

24 line like, on this point that we spoke about? Was it comparable? Was it

25 completely different, in a nutshell, if you know?

Page 13766

1 A. According to what I knew, I would say it was very similar, if not

2 completely identical.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 Doctor, I would like us now to focus on the question of combat.

5 Were there clashes, was there combat? I believe this is obvious, but

6 could you tell us on which -- how frequent was it? Was it on a daily

7 basis? Was it less frequent, and so on?

8 A. Sarajevo is one of the theatres of war of the part of former

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina where there were daily combat. There would be some

10 ceasefire, some truces for several days. They were mostly not respected,

11 but combat was on a daily basis. There was clashes from the town and also

12 outside towards our part of town. So there were daily clashes with the

13 use of practically any kind of conventional weapons with the exception of

14 Air Force, so any infantry artillery weapons.

15 Q. What was the intensity and the frequency of the shellings that was

16 coming from the other side of the line, that is, from the Muslim lines?

17 MR. STAMP: Again, we are -- we don't know exactly where we are

18 talking about. And it goes back to the original objection about the

19 relevance of all of this. But now we are taking it a step further. The

20 doctor has said that he lived at the hospital, at Zica hospital. We don't

21 know where that is.

22 He said that his hospital from Vogosca going right around to

23 Rajlovac, et cetera. Where are we talking about? Which lines are we

24 talking about? The ones towards Nedzarici, which would be about seven

25 miles where the Zica would be which is the subject of the indictment, or

Page 13767

1 the one somewhere else towards Croatia? If we are asking about where

2 these combats and these lines took place, the counsel should specify in

3 respect of which lines, which areas. The doctor has already testified

4 that his hospital covered a huge area.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I respond?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. The witness said

9 that he lived in the hospital; that is true. He also said that he had the

10 occasion to visit all of these neighbourhoods, and also even

11 neighbourhoods outside of the line.

12 Furthermore, I believe that someone is perfectly well placed

13 considering the frequency of people who were coming, the patients, of the

14 war injuries. So if -- did he stay four days without doing anything or

15 was that never the case? I believe this is a perfect witness to find out

16 whether injuries from shellings happened on a daily basis or not. Whether

17 it was in Ilidza or Grbavica or elsewhere, I am sure that the witness will

18 tell us, if he knows. And I don't think that this should be objected to

19 or could be objected to.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we are talking about witnesses

21 mainly a fact of cause. If the witness has observed anything at the front

22 lines, then he could tell us at what front lines he saw what, how often he

23 was there. If he was in the hospital, and you say it might have been that

24 for a couple of days no patients came in, I think that is a fair question

25 to the witness. But whether there was shelling or not based upon his

Page 13768

1 observations on how many patients came in, that is one step further, that

2 is, to ask the witness to draw conclusions.

3 So if you say were there ever a couple of days where came in no

4 patient with shrapnel wounds, for example, that is fair. I think there is

5 no question about the witness could testify about that. But let's try to

6 make a clear distinction between facts and inferences to be drawn from

7 those facts. If you would please keep that in mind.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Q. Doctor, could you tell us, according to you professional personal

10 experience, could you tell us about the frequency at which civilian or

11 military injuries, how frequently were patients brought to you who were

12 injured by shrapnels?

13 A. I said that on average there were seven injured people a day,

14 which doesn't mean that there were seven injured people per day. But

15 sometimes it was fewer, sometimes it was more. There were very rare days

16 that there were no injured because this is a very large space we are

17 talking about. And the percentage, I can tell you, the percentage of

18 artillery injuries compared to the percentage of injuries which were

19 caused by infantry weapons, with the wounds sclopetarium of the infantry

20 weapons, there were about 40 per cent of artillery-caused injuries, and

21 about 60 per cent there were injuries that were caused by infantry

22 weapons.

23 I can say that the hospital was located on a -- very close to the

24 demarcation line, towards Mount Igman, there was 1500 meters as the crow

25 flies. And in the direction of the parts of the town held by the Muslim

Page 13769

1 forces, about 2,000 meters, which means from the window of the hospital I

2 was able to see very clearly parts of the town like Alipasino Polje and

3 some other parts of town. I don't know what the names are, but they can

4 be seen with the naked eye, I was able to see very clearly the demarcation

5 lines of Mount Igman. And also from the hospital, I was able to see the

6 shelling of Ilidza, because it also could be seen from the second floor of

7 the hospital.

8 So apart from the knowledge I got from the patients where were

9 wounded and how, but I was also to see with the naked eye from the

10 hospital, and also I was moving about and I was there for a very long time

11 in the firing areas of Sarajevo municipalities.

12 Q. And from what you saw with your own eyes, Doctor, be it from the

13 hospital or from around it or on those occasions when you moved around

14 Sarajevo in the five districts that we are talking about, what can you

15 tell us about the shelling frequency?

16 A. I have said that shelling was very frequent. At times, there

17 would be a shell or two. At times, there would be as many as a dozen.

18 Several times during the period that we are talking about, as many as 100

19 shells would hit which means during more severe fighting because these

20 separation lines went through various parts of the city, that is one part

21 of the city fought against the other one. And they used all means of

22 fighting in the struggle.

23 I am saying this because I saw it and especially because of a high

24 influx of the wounded, types of the wounds, and the case histories, that

25 is, information we collected from the patients, the place, the time of

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Page 13771

1 wounding, the place where a person was wounded, time, and whether that was

2 a military or a civilian person. These are personal particulars which

3 every doctor will seek from every patient.

4 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

5 Doctor, I am reading back your statement. You are telling us that

6 you collected the information from patients when you were writing up their

7 case histories. And you say that you also asked about the time and place

8 of the -- these incidents. And what you were -- these information was,

9 was it always included in the patient's case history, what kind of

10 technique did you use to develop a patient's files?

11 A. It is every doctor's duty to when admitting an injured or a sick

12 person to get the particulars and the case history, especially in the case

13 of an injured person whether it is at peacetime or war injury, it doesn't

14 matter. One always records the time and place of every wounded. So for

15 every wounded -- and this is tantamount to a law.

16 So we also recorded the place where the person was wounded, the

17 time, and the manner of wounding. And in this way, we had exact records,

18 whether it was a military or a civilian person, and the place where the

19 person had been wounded. This is very important to know because at a

20 later stage in any court proceedings, be it the damages or whatever, it is

21 important for the court also to know so as to be able to meet their

22 request of the plaintiff or whatever it may be. We get cases of wounded

23 who was self inflicted wounds, or those who got injured in a personal --

24 in brawls. So one had to be able to distinguish between such injuries and

25 injuries sustained during fighting.

Page 13772

1 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

2 And now I would like to talk about patients and their ethnic

3 background. What was, generally speaking, the procedure that you followed

4 when and if soldiers were wounded and captured? Do you know something

5 about that? I am talking only from the point of view of care.

6 A. In response to this question, I have to say, to begin with, that

7 being a physician, and therefore --

8 Q. I shall try to be more precise. No, no, no. Go on.

9 A. I cannot discriminate between patients on whatever grounds, be it

10 national, religious or whatever. Physicians -- and I think that I am a

11 patient -- at time a physician, and to us all patients equal, so that we

12 treated equally all the patients regardless of their ethnic or religious

13 background. Apart from it being a medical rule or rather that it is part

14 of the doctor's ethics, this was also based on the requests of the

15 political and military leadership of the Serb side that we applied a

16 medical approach. I can give you two or three examples, and if you wish

17 me, I could also explain in detail. I said yesterday that we had over

18 1.500 [Realtime transcript read in error"1.050"] --

19 Q. I am stopping you here. I am stopping you here.

20 You said two examples because of the time. If you can give us

21 these examples in just so many words, then we should be happy to hear

22 that.

23 A. It says here 1.500. It is 150, not 1.000. So we had Croat and

24 Muslims one dead soldier too. So I can give you the example of Croat

25 soldiers, that is what I said. But perhaps it is more important to say

Page 13773

1 that we treated Muslim soldiers. So I can give you the example of Mehmud

2 Pustahija a Muslim soldier. He was from Visoko. He was a member of a

3 unit from Visoko. He was an officer, but I wouldn't be able to tell you

4 what his exact rank was, and he told us that he was -- he had been twice

5 awarded the gold lily, which means that he was a twice time hero who

6 entered our territory on a sabotage mission. And as we learned from

7 military and civilian police sources in that area, he had liquidated seven

8 Serb combatants. And as he was returning to his territory, he was

9 ambushed, severely wounded, and had several bullets in his chest and

10 abdomen, but he was brought in the hospital within one hour of the

11 wounding because that is how far he was from --

12 MR. STAMP: I know that perhaps counsel has two hours and

13 therefore he can use it. But could you explain the relevance of all of

14 this to the --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The -- let me just try to

16 focus your attention on two aspects.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I respond?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Just before I give you an opportunity to respond, I

19 will ask you to focus on two aspects. You did put a question to the

20 witness what were the techniques used to -- let me just --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Medical files.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the witness took one minute and a half to

23 tell us what the duty of a doctor is, and why it was important to

24 register. He did not say anything about the techniques used. So that was

25 one minute and a half. You didn't stop him, you just let him go. No,

Page 13774

1 please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me speak.

2 Now, you are asking questions about whether any distinction was

3 made in the medical treatment between, may I say, military or at least

4 people from different ethnic background. And the answer seems to me quite

5 clear that there was no distinction, and it is the duty of a doctor to

6 treat a patient irrespective of what is.

7 This last issue, Mr. Stamp asked what the relevance is. I am

8 asking your attention as well for the first aspect I raised, that the

9 witness took a lot of time without answering your question, without you

10 intervening, and then finally, you went to the next question. Would you

11 please explain what the relevance is.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be happy to do that. I

13 will say this: I would like to when -- one examines very carefully what

14 was my question in French, because I was not talking about medical

15 techniques, but that is a detail. With regard to the relevance of this

16 question, I will come to it, but before that, even before we lose time, I

17 would like if the objection is not made to the question, but to the

18 answer. And that is becoming a custom.

19 But throughout, the relevance of this is as follows -- the

20 relevance is as follows: The Prosecution indicated that there was a

21 campaign intended to suppress, by all means available, civilians and

22 military alike. And if there were such violations of the customs of war

23 and Geneva Conventions, then, amongst the military, one could expect any

24 one more drastic attitude because they are military, and therefore, they

25 would not have done anything to save these people, they would have let

Page 13775

1 them die or they would have left them to suffer.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the relevance of your question

3 depends on how we have to understand the Prosecution's case. Mr. Stamp,

4 could you please tell us whether in the term "campaign" as it is used in

5 the indictment, whether it is the case of the Prosecution that this would

6 involve all sectors of -- I would say also civilian lives, such as

7 doctors, medical treatment, that the campaign would implicate that

8 soldiers of the other -- of the Sarajevo forces would not be treated

9 medically on an equal footing as local patients?

10 MR. STAMP: That is not an allegation of the Prosecution at all.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If that is not part of the Prosecution's case, please

12 proceed to your next subject, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel switch on his microphone,

14 please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, your microphone --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am sorry.

17 Q. Doctor, did you also treat civilians? I am not talking about

18 military any longer, but about civilians, civilians who were not of Serb

19 origin. What can you tell us briefly about that, please?

20 A. Yes. I treated non-Serb civilians. Of course, there were many

21 civilians, but the Croat and Muslim -- but more Croats than Muslim, quite

22 so equally and without any difference whatsoever. So I treated both

23 wounded and sick civilians -- I mean both. Civilians used to come from

24 the municipalities I indicated where they lived, and from the

25 municipalities of Kiseljak which was the municipality adjacent to Ilidza

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Page 13777

1 which was mostly inhabited by Croats.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 Doctor, when fighting took place in the area that you were

4 familiar with, were there any measures announcing them so as to protect

5 the population?

6 A. There were about some two types of measures of announcement of

7 protection; one was the siren announcing shelling. I can say this is

8 something that I heard and saw with my own ears and eyes - this is

9 personal experience - that people knew, when they heard the siren, from

10 the other part of the city, that the siren in the part of the city

11 controlled by Muslims, then Serb civilians and soldiers in the part

12 controlled by the Serbs would immediately hide, because they knew that a

13 few seconds after the siren in the Muslim part of the city, shells would

14 start falling on the -- in the Serb part of the city. They knew that --

15 they knew that seconds or minutes later, Serb forces would be returning

16 fire from Serb parts of the city against Muslim parts of the city, and

17 that is how we knew the shells would be coming by hearing the sirens from

18 the other side.

19 I can only tell you that when there would be a larger number of

20 shells, we always said that the first shell kills, because the first one

21 comes as a surprise. People knew how to move, which parts of the city, on

22 which side of the building, so that that was another protection on

23 possible parts of the wounding.

24 Q. Thank you. Thank you for being so concise.

25 Now, I come back to the question of hospitals, Doctor. What can

Page 13778

1 you tell us about the electricity, water, and the rest in hospitals or the

2 hospital that you knew, briefly?

3 A. In the hospital that I worked in, we mostly used our generator.

4 The generator, we used it more than the regular power supply. In these

5 municipalities, again, there were power cuts, whether they had it more

6 often than they didn't, I don't know. But they didn't have it often, and

7 I can say that the same holds true of the city. Because the power supply

8 from the areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina controlled by the Muslim forces would

9 cross through the Serb part of the city and then go to the city.

10 So the Serb forces could cut off the electricity in the part of

11 the city inhabited by Muslims, but at the same time, perhaps half an hour,

12 an hour later, the Muslim forces from Bosnia-Herzegovina, I mean

13 Jablinica -- I can't remember exactly where, would cut off the power for

14 the Serb part of the city. So it seemed to be on a reciprocal basis.

15 Water was also a problem because when there was no electricity,

16 there was no water. Heating was a serious problem, because the Serb part

17 of the city mostly used gas that was -- there was a gas supply. I didn't

18 know about that, because we don't have gas in Nis. And also traverse

19 territories not controlled by the Serb forces or that gas by plant it was

20 not always in working order. So that electricity water and gas were

21 frequently the subject of haggling or bargaining between the two parties

22 to the conflict.

23 Q. Thank you. And I will move on to a different question, can you

24 please tell us but once again very briefly first -- and we have to ask you

25 to slow down.

Page 13779

1 First, what can you tell us about the medicines, and medical

2 supplies; and secondly, what can you tell us about the humanitarian aid in

3 the areas in the region that you knew? Oh, yes, all right, that's fine.

4 A. I have to try to be -- to slow down. The hospital -- the hospital

5 supply was, as a rule, organised through humanitarian organisations. And

6 I have to say to the French Battalion, French forces of the humanitarian

7 organisations, I could mention Pharmaciens, Ca Frontier, the Croissant de

8 Lune with Ca Frontier, the Red Cross and Red Crescent. Lots of supplies

9 came from arabic countries. There were also some church humanitarian

10 organisations, Caritas and I can't remember Adra or something. That

11 accounted for 95 per cent of the supplies that hospital needed, medical

12 supplies, I mean. Also, the United Nations forces, that is UNPROFOR as it

13 was called then, also supplied hospitals with the medical supplies.

14 It has been agreed that because the hospital was on the road that

15 convoys had to cover to reach the part of the city controlled by the

16 Muslims. So it was agreed that one-third of the medical supplies should

17 be left with our hospital, and two-thirds could be taken to the Kosevo

18 Hospital, which was a regular hospital in another part of the city.

19 And the United Nations forces respected that agreement. That is

20 how we both got our supplies. However, there were frequent problems with

21 that. At times, they would forget about us. At times, we would get

22 something that we did not need, for instance, some supplies for

23 cardiographic treatment which is something which we did not need but I

24 guess those were errors. I don't think such errors were done

25 deliberately.

Page 13780

1 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor. I am going to interrupt you now.

2 Thank you very much.

3 When we talk about medical supplies for hospital, there is more to

4 it than medical supplies. There are also some aids, such as for instance,

5 oxygen bottles and so on and so forth. Where did this come from, this is

6 my first question? And what can you tell us on the subject, but very

7 briefly? And I will interrupt you when necessary. Thank you.

8 A. These auxiliary equipment came from the world over. It went

9 through the part of the city controlled by the Serb forces and went onto

10 the part controlled by the Muslim forces. On one occasion, we needed

11 oxygen and nitrogen, two gases which are necessary for general

12 anesthesia. We could not make it because this is medical oxygen, not

13 industrial oxygen. We were getting it from Kiseljak, but where from, I

14 don't know. I am not sure it was not done or packed in Kiseljak. It must

15 have been coming from some other place, be it Bosnia-Herzegovina or

16 somewhere, I don't know. But over 15 bottles we received five and ten

17 went on to the city.

18 Sometime in 1993, early 1993, UNPROFOR members had unloaded five

19 bottles left in front of the hospital and our anesthetist picked them up

20 and realised that they were very heavy and he invited me and asked me,

21 What it is? And I said, I don't understand. So he thought that perhaps

22 it was frozen gas and it therefore might explode. So the hospital manager

23 came, Dr. Page, and we also invited UNPROFOR members who also came and

24 they had a look at those bottles. And on that occasion, we discovered

25 that those bottles had screwed on parts at the bottom. So they came fully

Page 13781

1 unscrewed as to the bottles, the bottom of these two bottles, and one of

2 them contained over 40 kilograms of --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to stop you here.

4 Mr. President, what the witness is about to say, I think it has to do with

5 a tape we would like to run. We have already given it to the booth.

6 Could we, please, now see this tape.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Proper to first ask the witness to tell his story and

8 then --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, of course. Do

10 continue, Witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we already distribute the tape to the

12 interpreters' booth.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was done yesterday. They

14 had it for the past 24 hours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...questions, and

16 then of course you can play the video.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Doctor, can you briefly finish your statement and tell us what was

19 discovered.

20 A. In one of the bottles, there were about 40 kilograms of gunpowder,

21 and the other one contained over 350 fuses, different devices. When

22 UNPROFOR experts came, we were told that they were of Italian make and

23 that they were meant for mortar shells. So one of the bottles was filled

24 with gunpowder, the other one with fuses.

25 So we immediately notified our military police forces, they

Page 13782

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Page 13783

1 notified the relevant UNPROFOR forces, everybody came. This was recorded,

2 the television -- I mean the Serb television recorded, and it was also

3 recorded by members of the international forces.

4 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

5 Now, just tell you about the tape in question.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we now have the tape

7 played, please, Mr. President?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp. Is the videotape prenumbered?

9 MR. STAMP: Yes, let us have an idea of what it is and the

10 foundation and relevance.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe the relevance, the

12 number was given to Mr. Stamp's assistant this morning before he came to

13 the courtroom. It is D17578 [as interpreted]. This is -- but the

14 Registrar does not have the number, sir. I don't have a number for the

15 transcript. I don't have the number. D17578 [as interpreted].

16 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire. We have a batch of tapes. Which

17 number is it?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the transcript repeatedly gives the wrong

19 number. It is 1758, so it is a four-digit number, rather than a

20 five-digit number. The second "seven" should be taken out.

21 MR. STAMP: I see. That is the Defence exhibit number. But among

22 the amount of tapes we were given by the Defence, they numbered them one

23 to twelve, I think, and they gave us some transcripts for some of the

24 speech on some of those tapes. I am wondering which one it is.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The good one obviously. Could

Page 13784

1 we now play the tape?

2 JUDGE ORIE: For all parties, what we are to see is -- are we

3 going to see the whole lot of D1758 or only part of it?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We shall see the part which we

5 shall call "four," I think. Mrs. Pilipovic was the one who is responsible

6 for this.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I see part four, is that --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, precisely, thank

9 you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please. One moment.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to get organised, apart from whatever

13 objections there might be. It is D1758 for the video as a whole. We

14 would have D1758/4 for part four. And for the transcript of part four, we

15 would have D1758/4.A for transcript.

16 So, now at least we know what we are talking about.

17 Mr. Stamp.

18 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire through the court. I take it then

19 that the transcript that we have received where we have tape number 4A,

20 that refers to what we are about to see?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It says tape number 4A.

22 And what as a matter of fact I would expect, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

23 that we would see some oxygen bottles. Because you said in view of what

24 the witness will testify, I would like to -- in view of what your

25 expectation was, the witness would then say about the bottles. Is this a

Page 13785

1 tape about oxygen bottles, because the text, as I see it, seems to relate

2 rather to patients than to oxygen bottles.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems that

4 there is an intervention. I am sorry about the numbers. The right

5 translation should start with tape three, and not with tape four, that you

6 have before you. The text begins with: "Reporter: Doctor, how did these

7 cylinders get to the hospital?"

8 JUDGE ORIE: We have in front of us now which starts with a text

9 with a female reporter who asks, How old are you -- Madam Registrar, is

10 this what we received from the Defence? Did we receive anything else from

11 the Defence?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I apologise. We will now

13 give you the correct text.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So we return this now to the Registrar.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With our profound apologies,

16 Mr. President.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters also be given the correct

18 transcript, please.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then, of course it would be D1758 for the tape

20 as a whole. D1758/3, I take it, for this part of the video, and D1758/3.A

21 for the transcript. Could the interpreters be provided with the --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

24 MR. STAMP: I believe that the Defence was told that they should

25 provide us the transcript with the evidence they intend to produce for the

Page 13786

1 court. Because what is happening now does put us in some difficulties.

2 This -- what is referred to here as tape 3 and this transcript here is

3 something which is not among the transcripts which we were given recently

4 and were told that it would be in respect of evidence that they would

5 call. As a matter of fact, we have here a reference to an extract from

6 tape 3. It is beginning with voice of reporter: "Around the

7 building...", which is

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you just show to the Chamber what you received

9 as being number 3.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 MR. STAMP: The other thing is that they told us was we were going

12 to be in tape 4 in respect to this witness, which has sort of led us down

13 the wrong track, so to speak.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what the Prosecution shows to the

15 Court is a letter to Mr. Ierace of the 4th of October, with attached to it

16 some pages. The first one starting with tape number 2. The second one

17 starting with tape number 3, which is totally different from the

18 transcript under the heading "Tape 3" as we just received it from the

19 Defence. That tape three starts with voice of the reporter: "Around the

20 building in Vido Valica [phoen], everything is peaceful, no signs of

21 fighting." And what we received as tape 3 is Reporter: "Doctor, how did

22 these cylinders get to the hospital?" Totally different.

23 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence can only

25 say that the -- all tapes have been disclosed and the translation that we

Page 13787

1 have now saying "Tape number 3," the reason for that is because we tried

2 that the tapes we disclosed to the Prosecution, that we focused them all

3 just on what lasted just a minute. And last week, I disclosed all the

4 video material together with the transcripts to my learned colleague. So

5 I don't see why this is a problem now.

6 MR. STAMP: There are 12 videos. I was up hours -- I can't say

7 how many hours of material on those 12 videos. What I think the order of

8 the court was is that at least 7 days before you are going to tender or

9 use evidence, we should be told what it is. I thought we would be

10 directed as to what it would be.

11 It probably would have been better that the Defence did not do as

12 the court ordered and did not tell us what they intended to do. Because

13 by telling us it is number 4, and then having us go down that track, it is

14 a bit of a surprise and difficulty to hear that it is number 3. And then

15 when we see what the number 3 is, it is not that part which they have

16 referred us to.

17 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. Stamp, is the document you just

18 gave to the Chamber, that is the letter of the 4th of October, does appear

19 in the annexes to that letter a part which would correspond with the tape

20 3 we just received from the Defence, that is about the oxygen bottles

21 or --

22 MR. STAMP: I cannot recall seeing that. I know we paid attention

23 to tape 4. Well, we paid attention to what was described as tape 4A and

24 4B --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you -- perhaps if I may

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Page 13789

1 interrupt you, Mr. Stamp.

2 On the 4th of October you have written a letter, and that letter

3 ends -- it is a letter addressed to Mr. Ierace. "I would like to inform

4 you that I am delivering you 16 pages with translation of the text of

5 videotapes that I sent you on September 10th, 2002, which I intend to put

6 in evidence."

7 Is in one of these annexes, is the -- let me say the oxygen part

8 present or -- I am just trying to look through it very quickly. And I

9 wonder, apart from whether you indicated number 4, is the -- is the oxygen

10 in these 16 pages, since Mr. Stamp tells us that he has no recollection

11 that he saw anything about oxygen bottles.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, at the

13 moment, I don't have all of the translated material that has been

14 disclosed to the Prosecution, but what certainly has been disclosed is

15 this part. Because this was done by a translator, and I am very sorry now

16 that my colleague say that they didn't receive this. But this is the text

17 for all of the tapes that have been translated by a translator of ours.

18 So all of the tapes that have been disclosed to the learned colleagues

19 have been translated and disclosed by numbers, and this was all disclosed

20 to the colleagues. Thank you.

21 So there was -- a later translation of tape number 3.

22 JUDGE ORIE: A later translation, not comprised in these 16 pages

23 that have been provided on the 4th of October?

24 MR. STAMP: I think there must be some error on the part of the

25 Defence. I am not really being -- it appears that we were even handed the

Page 13790

1 video and told that this would be the video for the witness Miodrag Lazic,

2 and it was a video of a little boy being interviewed --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask you. On the 4th of October, you sent

4 a letter with 16 pages of translation of videos, Ms. Pilipovic, and you

5 say that you intend to put this in evidence. You now tell us that

6 certainly the oxygen story would be among the translation. The Chamber

7 just checked. There are 16 pages attached to this letter of the 4th of

8 October, and none of them is about the oxygen bottles. When did you

9 provide the Prosecution with the translation of the video in respect of

10 oxygen bottles?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if in these 16 pages

12 there is no translation in relation to the oxygen bottles, to the tape

13 number 3, I believe this took place on last Monday when we disclosed

14 another three tapes with the translation. The case manager is here and I

15 also put it down in the minutes of the meeting. Everything that had been

16 disclosed have been translated.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Last Monday, is that yesterday?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Last week Monday?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that was before the

21 opening statement.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has any translation been received -- additional

23 translation been received last -- Monday last week? If the case manager

24 could inform the Prosecution on behalf of the Prosecution. Could you

25 please use the microphone.

Page 13791

1 MS. McCREATH: I did receive three tapes, however, we were

2 informed that tape number 4 would be used.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Was there three tapes with translations?

4 MS. McCREATH: I believe so, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Were they numbered, these three tapes?

6 MS. McCREATH: In some very faint chalk markings that are quite

7 illegible.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Were the translations numbered? Was there a number

9 on it, because three tapes means three translated transcripts, I take it?

10 MS. McCREATH: I would have to check that, sir.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please do so.

12 MR. STAMP: The situation as it is now is that the Defence wants

13 to play a tape with oxygen bottles. Perhaps we could just proceed to

14 that. If -- and then take the break, to save time.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, so I do understand now that at least of

16 all the tapes, the translations were provided to the Prosecution, there

17 seems to have been some confusion as to the numbering, but that at least

18 the Defence indicated that tape number 4 would be played, rather than tape

19 number 3.

20 This corresponds with providing the Chamber with the translation

21 of tape number 4, rather than tape number 3. But let's not -- tape number

22 3, Mr. Stamp it is one page of text in the transcript. Perhaps we look at

23 it, and I now return the letter of the 4th of October to the Prosecution.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I propose, in order

25 to avoid a situation of wasting time for technical reasons, I propose a

Page 13792

1 meeting with my learned colleagues, considering that there is a lot of

2 video material. And everything that the Defence intends to use has been

3 translated. Perhaps there is an error that occurred somewhere. Perhaps

4 we could just look and make a comparison of what is on both sides. We

5 know that there is a translation for each tape.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Of course the Chamber would be delighted not to be

7 bothered by this kind of confusion. I do understand, Mr. Stamp, that the

8 length of the tape is such that you do not object at this very moment to

9 it being played?

10 MR. STAMP: No, I do not. But the main reason I don't is just to

11 save time.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then play the tape. Are the technicians

13 prepared to play the tape?

14 [Videotape played]

15 "REPORTER: Doctor, how did these cylinders get to the hospital?

16 "DR. PEJIC: They arrived after the police at the border crossing

17 in Koviljaca realised that oxygen cylinders were being transported for the

18 Kosevo Hospital or some other place, and following a given procedure, they

19 put aside 10 cylinders for this zone. Out of those 10, the hospital was

20 given 5 cylinders.

21 We were astonished when we realised that out of those 5 cylinders

22 2 did not contain oxygen, and that they were far heavier than the others.

23 Initially, we thought that there was water inside or something else that

24 froze, because the weather was extremely cold. However, even after we

25 thawed them, the cylinders were as heavy as before. We then decided to

Page 13793

1 call in the technicians that know about these things. They opened the

2 cylinders and realised that they were full of gunpowder. I thought it was

3 my duty to inform the authorities in charge of security in this territory.

4 So we have before us a bottle weighing 43 kilograms. The other

5 weighs 28 kilograms. That's the weight of the content inside.

6 "REPORTER: Can you tell me whether this has been put inside just

7 to transport gunpowder that way, or that the use of these cylinders might

8 have caused an explosion.

9 "DR. PEJIC: I really do not know what was the purpose, it's not

10 my job and I would not want to speculate. But I can only say that I am

11 appalled that these cylinders be used for such purposes. I can only

12 presume what would have happened to this hospital had an explosion taken

13 place. It would have been a catastrophe..."

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, we have been provide would a page

16 with the heading "Tape 3." There is some text under a double line. That

17 is not part of this video, I take it? Man 1 Off Camera --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will just check with my

19 colleague. We can continue the tape, but I just wanted to ask a

20 question. If he can just answer with a yes or no.

21 Q. Doctor -- please, doctor. Doctor, these bottles that we saw, are

22 these the bottles that you yourself saw?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, technical booth, could we

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Page 13795

1 please continue with the viewing of the tape. Thank you.

2 [Videotape played]

3 "MAN 1 OFF CAMERA: I told you there was a threading.

4 Detonators? Take it all out. Take it all out.

5 No, you can't. No, you can't."

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Doctor, we saw different items there. The very last group of

8 items that we saw, does this correspond to what you said were these fuses

9 of Italian make? Yes or no.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Very well. Doctor, the fact that these fuses were of a foreign

12 make, that is, Italian made, what does this mean, specifically?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

14 MR. STAMP: It is all irrelevant. But I object because then the

15 doctor is asked to speculate outside his area of competence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please question the doctor about facts

17 he knows.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have the

19 interpretation on channel 6. There is no interpretation, it seems.

20 Mr. President, I am going to rephrase the question.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We still don't have the

23 interpretation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I heard something on channel six and I again hear

25 something on channel six. So it must be a local problem.

Page 13796

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Is this -- has it been solved?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

4 Q. Doctor do you know: Who were these fuses and the explosive, the

5 gunpowder, who they were intended for?

6 A. I do know they were intended for the Kosevo Hospital under the --

7 under the part of town under the control of the Muslim forces. That was

8 an official version. But certainly this would not have been used by the

9 hospital, because 15 bottles, I'm saying one-third of the bottles --

10 MR. STAMP: I am late in my objection, but there is no foundation

11 laid to how the doctor can have any knowledge or opinion as to the

12 destination of these bottles or these fuses.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I respond, Mr. President?

15 This is only the fourth or the fifth time that there are objections being

16 made, and not to my questions but to the answers. I was asked about

17 facts. I asked factual questions. I asked if he knew what was the

18 destination. Now, the Prosecution is again interrupt the witness who is

19 bringing important knowledge and facts about General Galic's trial. This

20 is just a waste of time that the Prosecution is doing and I believe it is

21 completely unacceptable.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I would rather not hear the words

23 "waste of time" anymore today, because we did waste a lot of time. I

24 think if -- your question was, I take it, and then it becomes more

25 factual, whether the witness knows to whom these bottles were addressed.

Page 13797

1 Whether that was the destination is a different matter. But if you -- and

2 I think that's already -- I don't know whether he told that.

3 So I have no problems in asking if you would ask the witness about

4 the destination, but then in factual terms. Because I do understand from

5 the answer of the witness that although these oxygen bottles might have

6 had as an address on it, the Kosevo Hospital, that he did not expect the

7 oxygen bottles to be used by the Kosevo Hospital, by the doctors in the

8 Kosevo Hospital. So, let's make a clear distinction between facts and

9 conclusions.

10 So if you are asking what the destination was, that is, at least,

11 an ambiguous question. Let's ask whether the doctor knows, and perhaps he

12 answered that question already, according to the address put on the

13 bottles whether that said that it had to be delivered at the Kosevo

14 Hospital. I think that's a matter of fact you can -- that also clearly

15 indicates what is the source of knowledge of the witness.

16 If you would phrase your questions in such a way that it is always

17 clear at the same time what is the source of the knowledge of the witness,

18 that would avoid a lot of confusion.

19 Please proceed. And now, perhaps we will have a break now. It is

20 10.30. Would you have any idea, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how much time you

21 would still need -- and don't --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no idea.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, could you please try to make up your mind

24 how much time you would need. And, of course, I do understand that you do

25 not know how much time you need because you are not aware of the

Page 13798

1 objections. How much time would you need for putting the questions to the

2 witness and listening to his answers?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I will

4 have to see. I can see that I am asking to phrase things that are on the

5 edge of -- in the realm of the impossible. I will check with

6 Ms. Pilipovic, and then we will see.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes you give this indication immediately after the

8 break. We will adjourn until 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m

10 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we resume, I would like to urge the parties

12 that even if questions are not just put in the most proper way, but in a

13 still acceptable way, not to object if not necessary. Of course,

14 Mr. Stamp, this does not infringe in whatever way with the right to object

15 to the Prosecution [sic] but let's try to use our time as efficiently as

16 possible.

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how much time would you still need?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That depends on whether there

19 will be objections or not, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I indicated that already. I asked you -- yes.

21 But let's -- I asked you before the break how much time you would need to

22 put questions to the witness and to listen to his answers, apart from any

23 objections. So there was no reason whatsoever to repeat that it was

24 without objections. Half an hour, that is clear to me.

25 Please proceed.

Page 13799

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. Doctor, can you tell us, please: Why was this hospital

3 established where it was, the one that you worked in? Why was it there?

4 A. This hospital was founded in a part of the city, in the Serb part

5 of the city, because it was the only hospital accessible to the population

6 of that part of the city, and those military. That is the nearest

7 hospital from the beginning from May to August when I wasn't there, but I

8 know that.

9 There was the Kasindol Hospital and it took half an hour to reach

10 it. One would have to go to the Butmir airport runway when the airport

11 was turned over to UNPROFOR forces when the Serbs that is lost control

12 over that runway. The Muslim forces came next to the runway on both

13 sides, and I could see it because I went there. They were on the very

14 edge of the runway so that any further transport using the runway was

15 impossible. And in the early days we were trying to use ambulance cars,

16 but they were shot at. And they transported to the hospital in Pale, the

17 next nearest hospital called Koran on the northern edge of Sarajevo, and

18 it took five or six hours to get there.

19 There was no road there. It had been barely made, dug, in order

20 to connect the part of the city controlled by the Serbs which was closed

21 from all sides accept this very narrow road which provided -- Pale, and it

22 took six hours to get there crossing fields and going over a dirt road.

23 So this was too critical for the wounded. Because in the case of severe

24 wounds, such long-lasting transport, especially if they were bleeding and

25 lethally, so that was they reached Pale either dead or in very severe

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Page 13801

1 traumatic or hemorrhagic shock. So the fatality until the surgical unit

2 was opened in the town, the fatality reached 70 or even 80 per cent which

3 is a horrific fact at the present time.

4 Q. Thank you, Doctor. You spoke to us about digging through this

5 road. Now, I have two -- no, three questions. The first one is: What

6 was the duration, the time which was necessary to get to the hospital in

7 the part of the city which is called Grbavica?

8 A. I think you meant Pale, not Grbavica.

9 Q. I know. But I am asking you a question --

10 A. I am sorry. It took about four to six hours to Pale, plus about

11 two hours to Grbavica. So eight hours altogether.

12 Q. Thank you. My second question concerning Grbavica: What can you

13 tell us about the way in which this area lived, that is, could one enter

14 it freely? Was it turned into an enclave or what?

15 A. During the war, I visited Grbavica only once. And I can say that

16 it took me so about 4 to 6 hours to Pale and 2 more to Grbavica, and it

17 was very difficult because it was a narrow road behind Trebevic from Pale

18 to Grbavica. It was a very difficult round about way to get there. If I

19 told you that it is 15 minutes from Ilidza to Grbavica to go to the city,

20 then you will understand what the means to travel eight hours around the

21 city.

22 Q. Doctor, we are talking about roads and routes. Did you see, with

23 your own eyes, to walk on foot in the city where you worked, how did

24 people walk in, that is, moving on foot, protect themselves?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down.

Page 13802

1 A. [Interpretation] Since I also moved around pass the city, I knew

2 from my own experience where I could go and where I couldn't. Not only

3 the adults, children knew that too. For instance, there was some

4 intersections which were open in Ilidza, in Vogosca, in Hadzici, these

5 were quite open, exposed, to parts of the city held by Muslim forces. And

6 one could not use those intersections. I am talking about urban

7 intersections.

8 One could not go through them which would have been the shortcut.

9 That is, you couldn't cross the street. You had to go around the building

10 or take some other route in order not to become the target for a possible

11 rifle from the other side. Also, some streets, for instance, Kasindolska

12 Street in Ilidza, but there were a number of others too, they were exposed

13 to infantry fire. I cannot say "sniper fire" because I do not know if it

14 is a sniper bullet or ordinary one, that is, whether one used sights or

15 just the naked eye. Because it could be either very near or it could be

16 very far. But some streets, such as Kasindolska, were wide open --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Doctor, I will stop you here. Thank you. We have understood that

19 there were areas which were exposed. But in areas which you could see,

20 were there, or perhaps were there not some special systems of protection

21 against such attacks, against these weapons?

22 A. Yes. There were very specific system, and I came across them for

23 the first time. Before that, I never saw them, even on film. And those

24 were sheets, sheets of cloth or cardboard shields. They would be stretched

25 across the streets, and on the sides, one could have large pieces of

Page 13803

1 cardboard or paper so that the pedestrians moving there could be protected

2 from being seen from either side, and thereby from possible shots at them.

3 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

4 Doctor, you have just mentioned the term "sniper." A doctor, can

5 he or can he not, when he see as bullet wound, say technically whether it

6 was a sniper bullet or perhaps some other kind of bullet wound?

7 A. It is quite clear that a physician can never say whether a bullet

8 came from a sniper or not. A physician, a surgeon, can know clearly

9 whether a wound had been inflicted by an infantry weapon, but whether it

10 was a sniper or not, he has no way of knowing. Because the only

11 difference can be the depth of the wound. And a good marksman can hit

12 from a thousand to 1500 metres, but you cannot know that.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 Doctor, can a physician make a difference when he is dealing with

15 a bullet wound, whether it was a direct hit or a ricochet hit, whether it

16 was a direct wound or a wound which was the result of a ricochet? Yes or

17 no.

18 A. Of course one can. There is a major difference between a direct

19 hit and a ricochet. Do you want me to explain the difference?

20 Q. I do not think it is necessary.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber would like to hear a

22 short explanation of what -- how this difference can be established.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please answer.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Direct hit, whether it was small

Page 13804

1 calibre ammunition or conventional ammunition, that is, .556 is small, or

2 .79, the conventional ammunition, both types of bullets, both types of

3 projectiles were used in the war in Sarajevo. A direct hit will produce a

4 clear, round, small wound at the entry, and at the exit also slightly

5 larger, but round. Whereas, the ricochet will produce an irregularly

6 shaped wound and on both sides the skin will be scorched and the circle

7 will be regular.

8 Why? Because a bullet if we take a small calibre, 5.56 [as

9 interpreted], such a bullet travels because the bullet, projectile, .556

10 travels faster than 1200 metres per second, its velocity is very high. It

11 has a tremendous kinetic energy, but small mess. Therefore, its entry

12 will be narrow and the wound inside will be large. Whereas a ricochet,

13 when the bullet has ricochetted from a wall, floor, asphalt loses the

14 velocity suddenly. The bullet doesn't rotate regularly around its axis,

15 but irregularly so that it lacerates the skin, the subcutaneous tissue,

16 and produce as large wound. So that the difference is quite clear, that

17 is, insofar as infantry weapons are concerned.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Q. And, therefore, Doctor, in the light of what you have just told us

21 when you are issued a medical document or are preparing a medical

22 document, is it that you could always -- that you couldn't put a sniper

23 bullet, because you didn't know that, you couldn't know that technically

24 whether it was a sniper bullet or not?

25 A. Yes, that's right. All that we put in is -- well, we put it in

Page 13805

1 Latin. But we merely said whether it was a bullet wound, that is, a

2 sclopetarium or a wound inflicted by an infantry weapon, or an explosive

3 wound caused by artillery weapon. But we, as physicians, cannot say

4 whether it was a sniper bullet or not. It can be perhaps done by those

5 who conduct investigations or other competent agencies.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you.

7 I am now going back to another series of questions. You spoke to

8 us about the locality of Grbavica. You told us that it was difficult to

9 get there. Was it as difficult to leave it, that is, whether people who

10 lived there, from what you know, were in a way - in a manner of speaking -

11 imprisoned in Grbavica for whatever reason?

12 A. I told you how one entered Grbavica, and that was also the only

13 way to get out of Grbavica. I told you it was very hard. And many times

14 during the first month of my stay there -- because it was in November that

15 I arrived in Sarajevo -- and between the 4th of October until November, I

16 was in Pale at the Koran Hospital where wounded from Grbavica came. And

17 oftentimes, I came across a situation, that is more than ten times during

18 that month, when wounded members, that is, members of wounded combatants

19 from Grbavica when they came, that their relatives coming to visit their

20 wounded members of family wounded combatants at Pale would be wounded or

21 even killed on the way from Grbavica to Pale, so that this route was taken

22 only when you had no other option.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 What was the situation, please -- what was the situation

25 concerning other areas that you knew, and I mean Ilidza, Vogosca, Hadzic,

Page 13806

1 and others?

2 A. All those localities were exposed equally to infantry and

3 artillery fire. And there was a rule amongst the population that movement

4 is highly dangerous. One moved about only when one had to and in special

5 situations. So that any movement was dangerous than being in that place.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 And now my last -- two last questions. You said that you saw with

8 your own eyes those two oxygen bottles a moment ago. To your knowledge --

9 to your knowledge, were there similar instances, that is, when weapons

10 were found in some pretty strange place?

11 A. I personally saw those bottles and all that. Apart from that, the

12 only thing I know also is -- and it also happened en route to the part of

13 the city controlled by the Muslim forces -- when a trailer was intercepted

14 and when the container was lifted, in the trailer itself, 40 to 50.000

15 machine-gun, Browning machine-gun bullets were found. I just happen to be

16 in the part of the city when that happened. And I -- later on, I also saw

17 it on television. And international forces which were there at the time

18 are also aware of that.

19 Q. And what was the date when that happened?

20 A. It was sometime perhaps in mid-1993. I can't give you the exact

21 date.

22 Q. Do you know what was that convoy? Was it a private convoy or was

23 it some other kind of convoy?

24 A. I think it had United Nations markings, but I am not 100 per cent

25 sure, but it can be checked, no doubt.

Page 13807

1 Q. Very well.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,

3 Mr. President. Thank you, Witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 Mr. Stamp, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness?

6 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour we are.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp:

8 Q. Were you mobilised at any time for the Zvornik Brigade?

9 A. No, never, because I am a national of Serbia.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] How does this kind of question

13 relate to the province of relevance? How is this brigade relevant?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp?

15 MR. STAMP: The witness here has testified that he is a

16 volunteer. I think we are entitled to inquire of the witness in

17 cross-examination about his background and anything that he might have

18 participated in.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when I just said something to Mr. Stamp about

21 objections, I think urged the parties because the background of the

22 witness is -- has only been the subject of cross-examination by the

23 Defence. Civilians were always examined thoroughly on, I would say,

24 military presence in the third degree and the families, so this type of

25 question is --

Page 13808

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- May I so simply to ask you

4 if you should intervene? I don't have always the English channel in my

5 ears, and at times I am covered by what you are saying. Sorry. Thank

6 you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

8 MR. STAMP:

9 Q. You first volunteered to work in Knin, in the Krajina in 1991. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And from there, you moved on to the Sarajevo opstina?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And at any time were you posted to work, as a doctor with the

15 Zvornik Brigade or any brigade in the Drina Corps?

16 A. I never worked, and I have only passed through Zvornik once in my

17 life.

18 Q. Well, did you at any time work as a doctor with the Drina Corps?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. You gave us some figures for persons you said were injured. Were

21 those persons persons who were treated in your hospital at Zica? Or may I

22 put it this way: Persons that were treated at the Zica hospital that you

23 worked at?

24 A. I gave you only figures for the hospital that I worked for in

25 Ilidza.

Page 13809

1 Q. Was that the Zica hospital? Was that known as the Zica hospital?

2 A. That's right. That is what it was called after a facility.

3 Before the war, it was a recreation home near Sarajevo, the hospital was

4 put up there. But people continued to call it Zica.

5 Q. Okay. And that was in a place called Blazuj or something sounding

6 like that?

7 A. It is at the municipality of Ilidza at the very entrance of the

8 Blazuj locality.

9 Q. And the figures you gave us they were the figures for wounded

10 persons between 1992 to 1995 during the war? Or was it 1996?

11 A. The figures covered a period from the 1st of November 1992 to 1st

12 of February 1996. That is until the last day I worked there.

13 Q. Okay. I am going to hand you a map, a blank map.

14 MR. STAMP: Unhappily, Mr. President, we only have one copy of

15 this blank map.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If it could be put on the ELMO we can use it. But

17 would you please take care next time that there are sufficient maps

18 available. At least if you need the witness to do some markings,

19 otherwise, we have the blank map as such as has been admitted into

20 evidence, as you know.

21 MR. STAMP: P3274. And perhaps it would be P3274ML. I asked the

22 witness to mark the map. I think that map has been used before in court.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is, Mr. Stamp, that usually the Judges

24 and the Defence --

25 MR. STAMP: I understand that.

Page 13810

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- would copy their own markings on their own copy of

2 the map and it is impossible now. It is highly inconvenient the way you

3 are dealing with it.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- the Defence would also like

7 to have a copy of this. I see that it is a large map. It will be

8 impossible to have it whole on the ELMO, not the whole Sarajevo. So would

9 Mr. Stamp please be so kind to supply us with one. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The map as such, I take it, is admitted in the

11 evidence, so you have a copy of that. But it is highly inconvenient that

12 Mr. Stamp did not provide us with extra copies.

13 Mr. Stamp, would it be possible to provide us after the next break

14 with a copy or if that would be -- is there a possibility? I don't know

15 how important it is in your line of questioning to deal with these matters

16 right away or that you can do it at a later stage.

17 MR. STAMP: I could try to get copies and deal with it at a later

18 stage -- of the maps. The reason why I have decided to use this map arose

19 out of the cross-examination [sic] and something I heard this morning, so

20 I just wanted to clarify that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The examination-in-chief, I take it.

22 MR. STAMP: The examination-in-chief, I beg your pardon. We are

23 making efforts to locate the copies. Perhaps some are in stock and would

24 produce --

25 JUDGE ORIE: You were referring to 3724, because that is a map

Page 13811

1 which is at least a look-alike from what I see from a distance. 3274

2 Madam Registrar informs me is photographs.

3 MR. STAMP: 3274?

4 JUDGE ORIE: 3724 is what the Registry tells me.

5 MR. STAMP: I have 3274 marked on this.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, it is possible to get the original

7 ones? Please proceed. We will check meanwhile with some other subjects

8 so that we can return to it after we have checked what the number is.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. A tape was played which we all saw. Were you the doctor on that

11 tape?

12 A. I am not the doctor. That was Dr. Pejic who is a specialist of

13 ear, nose, and throat. He is the head of the hospital. Myself, as a

14 surgeon, I did not speak to the journalist. I did not give a statement to

15 the journalist.

16 Q. Were you present when that tape was made?

17 A. I was present when the bottles were brought, when they were

18 opened, but while the interview was being done, I was in the surgery,

19 because some injuries -- injured patients were brought. And I watched how

20 the television interview was proceeding. So throughout the time, I was in

21 the courtyard of the hospital.

22 MR. STAMP: And now, I just wish to move on to the map.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp, it is not the fault of the Chamber of

24 the Defence that we have no copies. If we want to follow any markings on

25 the map, we should have a map in front of us.

Page 13812

1 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It may be clear, otherwise we are working on maps

3 without the markings on them.

4 MR. STAMP: I understand that, however, sometimes these things to

5 arise and we are making efforts to find it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you -- I don't know whether many markings

7 have to be made, but perhaps we could leave the -- and apart from that,

8 Mr. Stamp, in evidence is under number 3274A, 3274B, and 3274C, three

9 photographs. If I may just refer to them, these are photographs related

10 to victims in a bus, if that sounds familiar to you. Under 3724, a map is

11 admitted into evidence; that is a blank map. So I take it that you want

12 to present to the witness a map, that should be at the number of 3724 and

13 then the initials of the witness.

14 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, perhaps, if you have no other questions,

16 perhaps you start and we will see where we have difficulties in following

17 the markings. If it is just one marking, it is of course different from

18 if you want five or six.

19 MR. STAMP:

20 Q. Witness, I am going to ask you to mark on the map where the

21 hospital was located --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know, we

24 agreed, the Defence and the Prosecution and the Chamber accepted this that

25 throughout the examination of a witness, either by Prosecution or the

Page 13813

1 Defence, we would be using the map P3644. I believe this is the map that

2 was shown to all the witnesses. And then apart from -- then we would put

3 next to P3644, we would put the initials.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But isn't that the map of the city while this

5 is a map of a wider area? We have the big black and white map, that is

6 3724. And I think the other map is the map with the names of the streets

7 on it, or am I wrong?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we did not receive the

9 map beforehand. We don't know whether this is a map of a wider area or it

10 is a city map. Perhaps we could have a closer look at it and we would be

11 able to tell.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar will show you 3724 -- no, am I

13 right -- yes, 3724. I get confused myself.

14 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Stamp and we will see where we --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 MR. STAMP:

17 Q. Witness, could you please mark on that map the location of the

18 Zica hospital.

19 A. I am to mark the place -- I don't have any experience with maps --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.

21 But the methodology that we have used has always been the same. Every

22 time that the witness has to mark something, we mark it on our own maps so

23 that we know about it afterwards. When the debriefing goes on, we can see

24 what happened. Now, we can't do it because they refuse to give us a map.

25 I don't think that is correct.

Page 13814

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not use strong words like "refuse." Let's just

2 put the map on the ELMO and see whether the marking as requested by the

3 Prosecution can be made on this map. Would you perhaps indicate, Doctor,

4 the area of the map where the hospital was located so that we can all see

5 it on our screen.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to tell you that this is my

7 very first experience with a map of this area. But through the names,

8 perhaps I would be able to tell -- I don't know what the ratio -- what the

9 scale of the map is.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from scale of maps or not, I think this is not

11 the map we just mentioned. I would like to see the map that is presented

12 to the witness at this very moment.

13 It is the map that was exceptionally used. It is not the ordinary

14 black and white one we often use, but it is the map used during the

15 examination of Witness AD, as far as I can see. So could that part we

16 placed on the ELMO so that everyone can see it.

17 MR. STAMP:

18 Q. In order to make it a little easier for you, Witness, could you

19 find on the map where Blazuj is? Have you seen it? Can you put a circle

20 around Blazuj?

21 A. I managed to find everything on this map.

22 Q. Could you put a circle around Blazuj now, please.

23 A. [Marks]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a blue marker? Yes, it is.

25 MR. STAMP:

Page 13815

1 Q. And you put a dot there. What does that dot indicate?

2 A. This dot indicates the area where the hospital was located. As

3 orientation, I used the road which goes to the -- towards the place of

4 Osijek, where there is an underpass. And the hospital was just behind

5 this road next to the church. So just by the road, there is the church

6 and the hospital. So I think that it is a good orientation. It is

7 correct.

8 Q. Could you tell us whether or not to the south of where that

9 hospital was there was a confrontation line between the VRS and the ABiH

10 and how far it was. I am not asking you to mark anything now. I am

11 asking you to tell us whether or not you knew there was a line to the

12 south of the hospital.

13 A. I don't know what's the south is. Is it this down here towards me

14 or is it up there? South in relation to the city, if you can just tell me

15 what the southern side is, I can tell you. I can tell you on all four

16 sides, if you wish.

17 Q. Very well. Take your eyes off the map for a minute. I just want

18 to ask you a couple of questions. The position of your hospital from

19 Alipasino Polje was about 7 kilometres. Is that correct?

20 A. I don't know whether it is 7 kilometres, but I think I know what

21 you mean. It is possible to see Alipasino Polje from the hospital, for

22 sure. You can check this. These are skyscrapers. These are the only

23 skyscrapers. It is possible to see, that is what I said earlier. It is

24 possible to see it.

25 Q. Let's get back to the question. You are saying that you can't

Page 13816

1 answer whether or not the distance between your hospital and Alipasino

2 Polje would be about 7 kilometres? You don't know?

3 A. If you ask me, I don't know. But do you mean as the crow flies or

4 on the road? You are asking me if you can see it. I can see it.

5 Q. I didn't ask you that. We will get to that later. If you listen

6 to my questions first and answer those. As the crow flies, you wouldn't

7 be able to say whether it is about 7 kilometers or more? More in the

8 region of 8 kilometers? If you can't say, you can't say.

9 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you correctly whether it is 7

10 kilometers. Perhaps it is 5, perhaps it is 7. I don't know, I really

11 don't know. I could explain to you how long it would take by road, as you

12 take it car.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Lazic, you told us that you couldn't tell us

14 exact distance. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

15 Mr. --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Since we

17 didn't have time to look at the map beforehand, you know that I am not a

18 specialist, would it be possible to ask about the scale so that we could

19 find our bearings. Could Mr. Stamp tell us because I don't think I can

20 see what the scale of the map is. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the witness doesn't know anything of the

22 distance. Let's deal with the scale at a later moment, because this was a

23 question not related to the map. Please proceed.

24 MR. STAMP: Indeed just to say that it might assist the court that

25 we have evidence about the scale of this map from Witness AD, so we could

Page 13817

1 look to that.

2 Q. Between the hospital and Alipasino Polje, there are a few built up

3 communities including Otes and Nedzarici. Is that correct? I beg your

4 pardon, Otes and Nedzarici. Is that correct?

5 A. No. Between the hospital and Alipasino Polje, in my opinion,

6 there is only one locality, Dogladi and Azici. This is a locality with

7 only Dogladi, and Azici is only low houses, no high-rises. Alipasino

8 Polje is -- has nothing -- Alipasino Polje and the hospital only have low

9 houses between them.

10 Q. Let me ask you again: As the crow flies, would you say that the

11 community of Nedzarici is between where the hospital was and Alipasino

12 Polje?

13 A. Nedzarici is located in this area, but not as you look towards the

14 Alipasino Polje settlement.

15 Q. You indicated that Hadzici and Ilijas were also part of Sarajevo

16 from which you took casualties. Is that fair? Could you put a circle

17 around Hadzici where it is.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And could you put a circle, a circle and a cross around Ilijas.

20 A. No, it is okay.

21 Q. Can you find Kiseljak on this map?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the transcript, may I just return to

23 Ilijas. You asked to make a circle and a cross. Dr. Lazic, could you on

24 Ilijas, please, add a cross to the circle. Yes, that is Kiseljak. Yes,

25 yes, yes.

Page 13818

1 MR. STAMP: Please stop.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Stamp.

3 MR. STAMP:

4 Q. The circle at Ilijas, you have put a cross and circle. You have

5 also put a cross and a circle at Kiseljak. For the Ilijas, could you just

6 put a figure "1" beside that circle and the cross at Ilijas.

7 A. All three. I have marked there three. And Ilijas and Kiseljak,

8 and before that Hadzici.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the transcript, now, Ilijas is a

10 circle and a cross, and a "1." Kiseljak is now a circle and a cross

11 where -- no, no, you don't have to add -- please, please. And just a

12 circle was the first marking made.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. STAMP:

15 Q. Can we -- can you just assume for the sake of the next few

16 questions that Hadzici is to the east of Blazuj -- sorry -- to the west of

17 Blazuj, and Ilijas to the north, so you can get your -- good.

18 Do you know where the lines were to the east of Hadzici where the

19 confrontation line -- sorry -- to the west of Hadzici. Do you know where

20 they were?

21 A. So Hadzici is to the west. The confrontation line west from

22 Hadzici was located exactly on the edge of the locality towards the west.

23 I don't know the localities themselves. I don't know them because they

24 are on the other side of the demarcation line. I never went there.

25 Q. But approximately to the west, to the edge of that circle that you

Page 13819

1 put for Hadzici. Is that your answer?

2 A. Yes. That's what it should be. I can't guarantee you 100 per

3 cent. By the localities and by the map, it is west on the very edge. I am

4 not an expert for maps.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are now

7 going into detail, very precise detail, on the positions of the lines. I

8 believe it is absolutely indispensable to have the maps so that we can

9 reproduce the markings on the document, otherwise we are not going to be

10 able to proceed later on. And we are not going to be able to ensure the

11 proper defence of General Galic.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, do you have any idea how much time it

13 would take still to provide us with the maps?

14 MR. STAMP: I have just received information. It is going to be

15 impossible to provide maps, copies of these maps today.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be possible to have the marked maps

17 reproduced at a later stage so that the Defence has a -- even a better

18 copy of the map with the markings?

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: So I take it that care will be taken that the mark --

21 the maps as they are marked will be given to the Defence once being

22 copied.

23 Yes.

24 MR. STAMP: I am wondering if the Defence has copy of the one

25 which was used with Witness AD. Perhaps if they do, I don't know.

Page 13820

1 JUDGE ORIE: We should not ask the Defence to mark a marked map,

2 because it would lose its quality of a copy of the -- of the exhibit

3 admitted in the evidence. So that is not a solution, I think, Mr. Stamp.

4 The Defence will be provided with a copy of the marked map in a later

5 stage. And at this moment we have the original of the marked map

6 available, so that if any additional question would arise, that we can use

7 this map.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. Now, to the south of Blazuj - and remember Ilijas is to the north

11 and the south is opposite to the north - would you agree with me that the

12 confrontation lines in that direction were about 1 to 2 kilometres away

13 from Blazuj? You have to speak into the microphone.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Dr. Lazic, nodding is a bit difficult for the

15 interpreters to translate. And on our transcript, we need your response.

16 Yes, so would you please speak aloud instead of nodding. Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just waiting for the

18 interpretation to finish. I was nodding for the -- before the end of the

19 interpretation. Yes, I fully agree with you, yes. Igman.

20 MR. STAMP:

21 Q. And according to you, there was a lot of fighting in the Igman

22 area. Is that so?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You took casualties from all of these areas in Sarajevo, as you

25 know it?

Page 13821

1 A. That's correct. In all the municipalities, in all the area

2 between these municipalities. So that was all the area between the

3 demarcation lines.

4 Q. Again, the confrontation lines to the north of that circle that

5 you put at Ilijas was about a kilometre away. Is that correct? Do you

6 recall that?

7 A. From the hospital to Ilijas, that is what I understood.

8 Q. No. The lines of confrontation between the two warring sides, to

9 the north of Ilijas, the circle for Ilijas, was approximately a kilometre

10 away. Is that correct?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel wait until the end of the

12 interpretation, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Let me have a look.

14 Yes, approximately, yes, that is approximately right, from Pogluvi as far

15 as I know, Pogluvi was also in the Serb area and further on it is on an

16 irregular line. But, yes, that is what you can say. I do not know

17 exactly on the map. It is not a straight line. For instance, the village

18 that I can't see here --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to check

21 on something that Prosecution said earlier; it is about the objection. I

22 am objecting to this because the competencies of the witness is not of a

23 military of someone who was a soldier in the field and asking him to

24 localise this on such a map as this, I don't think that that is proper.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Stamp.

Page 13822

1 MR. STAMP:

2 Q. Yes. You agree that -- without looking at the map -- you said

3 that you knew where battles were fought and combat --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please respond to the objection, first.

5 MR. STAMP: Oh, I beg your pardon. The objection --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Was about the beyond the competence of this witness

7 to say anything about the localities -- he is not a military and therefore

8 could not identify confrontation lines.

9 MR. STAMP: The witness in chief gave a lot of evidence about

10 combats in this zone that his hospital covered from which they took

11 patients, they took casualties. And he spoke of knowing about it,

12 firstly. So I submit that the question is alleged to my question, if he

13 cannot answer, he cannot. Secondly, the objection does not address a

14 question. All I asked the witness was simply if he can say whether or not

15 the confrontation line to the north of Ilijas is approximately a kilometre

16 away from where he put the circle.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. STAMP: One moment, Witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you can answer that question, you may do so. The

20 objection is denied. But, of course, if you don't know, you can't tell

21 us.

22 MR. STAMP: I think the witness did answer, but perhaps you could.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I missed that answer, because I was about to

24 give a decision on the objection.

25 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Witness.

Page 13823

1 JUDGE ORIE: But the answer does not appear in the transcript.

2 Could you please repeat the answer to the question of Mr. Stamp. Could

3 you please repeat the --

4 MR. STAMP:

5 Q. Can you say whether or not the confrontation lines to the north of

6 Ilijas, that is where you put the circle with the number "1" on the map,

7 was approximately a kilometre away from Ilijas?

8 A. Possibly. Yes, one kilometre is possible. But what I can say

9 also is that I know very well that the area and confrontation line toward

10 the city. I did not visit the confrontation lines along the outer ring,

11 because it is a mountainous area, and I didn't go there. But I know it

12 was quite near Ilijas, perhaps a kilometre or two.

13 I know how the lines went towards the city. And I know almost

14 every place there toward city, but outside along this outer ring, I mean,

15 it is 10, 20 kilometers, over the mountains. And I really do not know

16 which direction it took, except some places, Igman, Zuc, from where the

17 shelling came. Other things I can make guesses. Outer ring, as we would

18 call it

19 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Lazic, may I ask you to listen carefully to the

20 questions and answer that question. The question was: Whether the

21 confrontation line was how much north from Ilijas. If counsel for the

22 Prosecution would like to know whether you have any further knowledge of

23 the confrontation lines, he will certainly ask you. But we are under some

24 time restraints.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

Page 13824

1 MR. STAMP: Thank you Mr. President.

2 Q. You said shelling came from Igman, Mount Igman. Was that where

3 the major part of the shelling came from into your area?

4 A. The area where the hospital was, Ilidza, the municipality of

5 Ilidza, yes, most shells came from Igman. Some came from the city, but

6 from Igman, yes, that is where the majority of shells came from.

7 Q. Would you consider Igman a part of Sarajevo, by your definition of

8 what Sarajevo is?

9 A. I have to apologise. I do not know whether Mount Igman is legally

10 part of the municipality of Sarajevo. I didn't give you my definition. I

11 told you about what Sarajevo looked before the war, at that time I knew

12 which were the municipalities of Sarajevo. And that was a decision taken

13 by the city. That was not something that I invented. And how the city

14 was built and organised, that is another matter.

15 Q. Okay. Thanks. The answer is you don't know whether it is legally

16 a part of Sarajevo. You saw skyscrapers in Alipasino Polje from the

17 second floor of the hospital in Zuc [sic]; that is your evidence?

18 A. It is, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: May I make it -- you mean Blazuj and not Zuc?

20 MR. STAMP: I thank you, Mr. President.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, that is

22 what I was about to say.

23 MR. STAMP:

24 Q. You could see the top of those skyscrapers. Is that correct?

25 A. Not of the skyscrapers. I don't know if there were 10-, 12-storey

Page 13825

1 high, and then I would see two or three floors, and then at times I saw

2 the whole body of these buildings.

3 Q. The urban part of the city of Sarajevo, that part which was

4 controlled by the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you visit that

5 part between the 10th of September 1992 to the 10th of August, 1994?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have an

9 objection in principle. Because the questions, as it was phrased, implies

10 the idea of a city, but city only which is in the hands of the

11 Federation. Because the question begins, "The urban part of the city of

12 Sarajevo," as if other parts were not also urban parts. And I think that

13 a distinction is drawn here implied by the question. The Defence wishes

14 the question to be reworded.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand the question to be whether you ever

16 visited those parts of the city that were under control by the BiH

17 forces. Is that correct, Mr. Stamp?

18 MR. STAMP: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You may then answer that question.

20 MR. STAMP:

21 Q. Between August -- between September 1992 and August 1994, in that

22 time period.

23 A. No.

24 MR. STAMP: That is all, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No further --

Page 13826

1 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Stamp, you were not on the microphone.

2 MR. STAMP: I am sorry. No further questions, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.

4 Dr. Lazic, the Judges have a few questions for you as well, but

5 perhaps first the Defence -- yes, please proceed.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I am sorry, but so that

7 we can see whether there are some other questions, I need the map to have

8 a look at it. I am really sorry, but that is not the Defence's fault.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is

11 perhaps one question -- [In English] Do not fold it. Okay.

12 [Interpretation] There is one question which we could ask in relation to

13 the map.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do so if you -- if that comes out from the

15 cross-examination.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes. Because the

17 question was about the exact position of the hospital. That we wanted to

18 show how difficult it was, we want the witness to mark with a different

19 pen the route which one had to take before the hospital in order to get

20 from this neighbourhood in the east to the area of Pale.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If that is possible.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is my recollection well that it was a

24 specific -- it was during the examination-in-chief that the difficulty

25 road to Pale was explained by the witness.

Page 13827

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is quite correct.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So let me just confer.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is of the opinion that although perhaps

5 the question does not directly relate to the examination-in-chief -- to

6 the cross-examination, that it might be of assistance to the Chamber to

7 have this route marked on the map. So unless -- well, let's see how --

8 whether and how quick it can be done. Yes.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President we shall ask the

10 witness to do it, but we wanted first to examine the whole map in order to

11 avoid errors, and only when he is quite certain that he knows the route to

12 take a pen of different colour, I believe, that will be black, on it --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just be very practical. To do it with some

14 precision, that might take some time. Could it not be done in the

15 presence of both parties during the break under the supervision of a --

16 and that we then see the result after the break? I am aware, Dr. Lazic,

17 that I might deprive you from a cup of coffee but perhaps -- if that would

18 be -- so we will do that during the break and first see perhaps whether

19 there are any other questions.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, Mr. President.

21 Because since we shall save time in this manner, let me have 30 seconds to

22 tell you why we consider the relevant and important. It would be of use

23 to the Chamber and perhaps the Prosecution simply to show that before this

24 hospital was set up there, one needed an amount of time to get to the

25 hospital, and that was why the hospital --

Page 13828

1 JUDGE ORIE: Relevance is not in dispute. You asked the witness

2 to marked the road -- the route, and he will do so during the break. If

3 this was your question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Judges have some questions

4 for you as well.

5 Judge Nieto-Navia.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. Doctor, you said

8 that as a physician, you don't know whether a wound was produced or

9 provoked by a sniper bullet or a bullet coming from other infantry

10 weapons. What is, for you, a "sniper"? What is your understanding of a

11 "sniper"?

12 A. Let me put it this way: A bullet from infantry weapons --

13 infantry weapons, I can give you two examples. The rifle used by the

14 former Yugoslav People's Army and that was 7.9 calibre, and it was used by

15 both sides in the early days of the war. Or some American rifles of small

16 calibres, if they have optical sights and use the sights to target it, and

17 you need sights to target something that is further away, that is a

18 sniper. If you fire without such sights, that is a shorter distances,

19 these are wounds inflicted by infantry weapons. So the weapons are the

20 same, except that in one case you use sights and in others not.

21 Now, whether he was lying somewhere and waiting or whether he

22 simply fired blindly towards the locality and hit somebody, we, the

23 physicians, cannot say that. All we can say is that it was wound

24 inflicted by infantry weapons or by artillery weapons and we can say

25 whether we are dealing with small-calibre ammunition or conventional

Page 13829

1 ammunition.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. That is very clear. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has a question for you.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 [Interpretation] Doctor, I would like to go back to what you said

6 about the experience that you had in treating the wounded from the other

7 side. I am referring to other parties to the conflict. And you said that

8 you were a humanist and that the medical ethics was imperative for you and

9 you did what you had to do.

10 But in your testimony you also said that there were certain

11 instructions coming from the military and the civilians to the fact that

12 you - being in the hospital, a doctor - had to treat, had to attend to all

13 of the ethnicities or all the ethnic groups in Bosnian. I would like you

14 to tell me a little bit more about those instructions, please. Thank you.

15 A. I am sorry. Those were not really instructions. Those were

16 mostly conversations. Because a number of military and political leaders

17 visited the hospital, visiting the wounded, from Corps Commanders, army

18 commanders to municipality mayors. And whenever they visited the wounded,

19 the hospital, they extended the same kind of attention to Serb ethnicities

20 and other ethnicities. And never forgot to point out, when talking to

21 doctors, that it was very important, and that it was very highly necessary

22 for us to comply by the Physician's Oath and to attend to all wounded.

23 Otherwise, they issued no instructions, no directions or anything. They

24 merely pointed out what was our duty and that was how it should be.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Doctor,

Page 13830

1 can you tell us if you remember the names of some of these military or

2 civilians.

3 A. You mean those who visited the hospital? Well, for instance,

4 the -- yes. That's right. The mayor of the municipality of Ilidza, I

5 can't remember him. General Galic, corps commander. Commander of another

6 brigade, Mr. Krajisnik, came -- I can't remember them all because there

7 were many. The minister of health care Mr. Kalinic. So prominent figures

8 came to visit the wounded.

9 And I think that it is their duty. I think it would be horrible,

10 if leaders, especially military leaders, didn't come to visit their

11 wounded. The hospital was in the city itself. And whenever they came,

12 they always spoke about and always pointed out the humaneness of the Serb

13 side. And as far as I know, the same holds true on the other side as far

14 as medical is concerned.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] When it comes to General Galic,

16 did he mention this once? Twice? If I remember well, you went -- you

17 arrived in that hospital in November, that is when you started working

18 there in 1992. Can we agree about that?

19 A. Yes, you are quite right.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you stayed there until 1996.

21 But what I am interested in is from the period from the time when you

22 arrived until, say, August or September 1994. Do you remember, did

23 General Galic come once or several times? Did he talk with you or with

24 all of the hospital staff? Could you please shed some light on this.

25 A. General Galic, as the Corps Commander, that is what he was called,

Page 13831

1 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, which covered that area there -- a broader area,

2 he came five or six times, that is, several times to visit the wounded.

3 He talked with them. He also talked with the hospital staff during the

4 visit. At times he would stay half an hour, at times a little longer.

5 But generally speaking, he talked both with the wounded and the personnel

6 about the problems we came across, whether we had problems with medical

7 supplies, did the wounded have some complaints, as is due after all. He

8 did what a military commander will do when he comes to visit a hospital.

9 But he took care of the operation of the hospital and the health care of

10 the population.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right, to understand you better,

12 do I understand your directives, instructions, to attend to everybody

13 irrespective of their ethnicity? It is this particular point that I would

14 like you to concentrate on.

15 A. Yes. I am concentrated. I am saying there were no directives, no

16 instructions. But he always emphasised a wonderful example of the doctors

17 who treated everybody regardless. He emphasised this as a paramount of

18 humaneness and the Serb attitude towards the war, I mean, with regard to

19 the medical profession. I don't know anything outside that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Dr. Lazic, I have got a few questions for you as

21 well. You explained to us how the long journey to Pale would create a

22 risk that patients already died by reaching Pale. Could you tell us: Why

23 were they transported to Pale?

24 A. From May 1992, in May 1992, a hospital was established, but it had

25 no general surgeons. That the surgeons who could operate on the chest,

Page 13832

1 abdomen, and large blood vessels. They had an orthopedic surgeon who

2 could operate bones. They had specialists for ear, nose, and throat,

3 otorhinolaryngologist, but they didn't have a surgeon and they didn't have

4 an anesthesiologist.

5 All of the wounded necessitating urgent operations, chest,

6 abdomen, large blood vessels, extremities, and the body, had to be

7 surgically treated if they were to survive. Since there were no surgeons

8 or the operation theatre or anything, they were transported to Pale. And

9 it took four or six hours. They were transported in a vehicle which is

10 called 150. It was a lorry which belonged to the former Yugoslav People's

11 Army with four bunks, as in a train, suspended, and they had a nurse with

12 them. Such patients, when I was in Pale in October, I was there to admit

13 such a lorry every night because, of course, they had not travelled by

14 day. They did it at night. So of the four or five wounded transported,

15 one of them would be lying on the floor.

16 And I have to tell you, if somebody had -- was wounded at 2 or

17 3.00, he had to wait for the night to fall to be transported, that is, you

18 were not transported immediately. So when they arrived there, one or two

19 were already dead and the rest were in shock. That is the only reason for

20 the transport.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I still try to understand you. You say that certain

22 facilities are not available in Pale like physicians and general surgeons,

23 is that a correct understanding? Or is it just the other way around?

24 A. No, the other way around downhill, down in Sarajevo there were

25 none and there were some in Pale.

Page 13833

1 JUDGE ORIE: So patients that needed general surgery for which the

2 facilities were not in your hospital to be transported to Pale?

3 A. I am saying, if it was a hospital which worked on the 1st of

4 November until I came, there were no general surgeons there. So that all

5 the patient whose needed surgical treatment went to Pale. On the 1st of

6 November, I came down from Pale with the anesthetist, the assistant, and

7 that is when we started an operation theatre in the kitchen of that

8 recreation home and that is when we started an operating theatre in the

9 kitchen of that new creation home, and that is when we started operating

10 on patients in the hospital that we are talking about.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So the situation you just described is the situation

12 that existed before you arrived in the hospital where you worked?

13 A. That's right, yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You have also indicated to us how far it was to

15 Grbavica. Would patients from Grbavica, would they be transported for

16 treatment and surgery to Pale or to your hospital?

17 A. They were taken to Pale, naturally, because it took an hour and a

18 half to two hours, perhaps, to get to Pale. So they were taken to Pale

19 only.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That is clear to me. Then I have a -- you told us

21 about the, I would say, the documentary part of your profession, that is,

22 records kept in view of patients. Are they still available? Because you

23 told us about it, but we haven't seen any of these medical records.

24 A. All medical institutions in the world over medical records are

25 kept in the hospital. Not even an X-ray can leave the hospital. And the

Page 13834

1 patients are issued with a discharge document, and it includes a diagnoses

2 in Latin, the Latin description of the operation undertaken. And in the

3 local language, you have further explanation, what kind of the problem we

4 were treating, what was done, when the patient left, whether he needs to

5 come for checkups or not. So this is the only document the patient is

6 issued with, and his case history remains in the hospital, the records

7 remain in the hospital.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to slow down although the interpreters

9 do a perfect job in following you, but it is very difficult. Are all

10 these documents still available in this hospital where you worked,

11 according to what you know?

12 A. Let me tell you this: On the 1st of February, 1996, the hospital

13 shut down -- no a little bit before that. I left on the 1st of February.

14 So I think that on the 20th of February. Because under Dayton, that part

15 of Sarajevo was reunite would another part and that hospital was shut

16 down. So that all the medical records were transferred to the Kasindol

17 Hospital, which is still a legal hospital, a lawful hospital, because it

18 was a lawful hospital just before the war. So all the medical records I

19 believe can be found at the Kasindol.

20 I kept my personal records and I have over 50 papers which I

21 published at home and abroad with slides, over 500 slides. More than 50

22 hours are on tape so that if you wish me, I can send you some of my

23 documentation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If needed, we might ask you to do so. Then I

25 have some questions about the oxygen bottles. You told us that you were

Page 13835

1 present during the interview of Dr. Pejic. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes. At that moment I was in the infirmary, that is, I was there,

3 I went into the infirmary for two or three minutes. The whole thing took

4 two or three hours until relevant officers came to establish what it was.

5 This whole incident lasted two hours, not less than that, and I was there

6 all the time and went in the infirmary for a couple of minutes. The

7 anesthetist who discovered them determined the weight, he is called is

8 Misur, you can also inquire if need be, and he can also tell you something

9 about it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I will ask you specific questions about that. Have

11 you seen Dr. Pejic being interviewed? Did you see that or were you in at

12 that moment? Were you inside? Were you close to it?

13 A. The interview last said about five minutes. I saw part of it, not

14 the whole of it. But I saw him stand there and talk and I think that the

15 cameraman was Spomejika Durdevic, I mean that was the interviewer,

16 Spomejika Durdevic, that was the name of the interviewer.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We saw it on the video as the oxygen bottles being

18 opened at the bottom after the interview. Was that the following order

19 you noticed or was it the other way around?

20 A. The bottle -- the oxygen bottle were unscrewed in the presence of

21 international forces prior to the interview --

22 JUDGE ORIE: My question was: Was this before or after the

23 interview of Dr. Pejic?

24 A. Before.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I heard Dr. Pejic say that the two bottles, he was

Page 13836

1 using the plural, that they were filled with gunpowder, which surprises me

2 if I compare that to the pictures I saw and to your testimony. Have you

3 any possible explanation for that?

4 A. The only thing which is correct is that there were two bottles,

5 that one of them contained gunpowder and the other one detonators. I

6 suppose if you went through the whole tape, you would also see the other

7 bottle with gunpowder. Whether Dr. Pejic -- whether it was a slip of the

8 tongue on Dr. Pejic's part or something, I do not know. But I am quite

9 certain that one of the bottles contained gunpowder and the other one the

10 detonators.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer. Dr. Pejic gave -- yes,

12 Dr. Pejic also gave an explanation for the suspicion. He said: "Initially

13 we thought that there was water inside or something else that froze

14 because the weather was extremely cold. However, even after we thawed

15 them, the cylinders were as heavy as before. We then decided to call in

16 technicians," and then he continues.

17 Were you present when this suspicion came up? So in the stage

18 where there was suspicions about the weight of the bottles?

19 A. I was present personally, and the anesthetist contacted me first

20 and said, I don't know what is going on, the bottles are unusually

21 weighty, heavy.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And then you thawed them up and they were still as

23 heavy?

24 A. Then all of us in the hospital, we gathered and the chief came as

25 well, and he wasn't there at the time. And then he came and then there

Page 13837

1 was suspicion that this was something that was frozen, that this was a gas

2 that was frozen inside. So we called him to find out, but before the

3 bottles were opened, we asked all of the people to come there, all the

4 people in authority, international officials. And then the bottles were

5 opened after that. But there was suspicion that this was frozen gas.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Dr. Pejic says that they were then thawed up

7 and that they were just as heavy as before, and that you then decided to

8 call in technicians. Is that your recollection as well, or would you have

9 a different recollection of that?

10 A. I can't recall. But certainly we wouldn't have think -- thought

11 of warming the bottles up; that is for sure. Let me tell you something:

12 Because in Rajlovac in the vicinity, there was some oxygen factory which

13 was making technical gas, not the one that can be used for -- in

14 anesthetics. So somebody did come and say, Why don't we warm it up?

15 But, of course, we didn't do it. I think somebody had suggested that, but

16 because the bottle was still heavy, then military experts were called to

17 see what was going on.

18 I can tell you that there was this white -- this blue band at the

19 very end of the bottle. When somebody took that band off, then we can see

20 there was a bottle line of the cut, and this blue tape band covered this

21 line. When the band or the tape came off, then we could see that there

22 was a line, the bottle had been cut and somebody said, Let's unscrew it to

23 see what's inside. I can't tell you any more details t was a long time

24 ago. But this is a very interesting thing that happened, and hard to

25 forget.

Page 13838

1 JUDGE ORIE: Since you studied medicine, may I take it that you

2 are familiar with the basics of physics?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: What did make you expect that an iron bottle with a

5 frozen liquid in it would be heavier or lighter than the same bottle with

6 the same content of not frozen liquid?

7 A. We were told by the anesthesia technicians who worked with the

8 equipment for anesthesiology and he worked for 10 years, and he told us

9 that this was too heavy. So that this is where our suspicion came from,

10 otherwise we didn't really think as to its physics, but he said he saw

11 that from his experience, he thought maybe it was frozen gas. That was

12 the idea. So it was the anesthetist -- the person who assists the

13 anesthesiologist, the doctor, and he is the one who is in charge of all

14 the equipment, the bottles, screwing them in, in screwing them, and so on,

15 and that's what he said. It's on the basis of what he said that we had

16 our suspicions. At the time, nobody thought about the laws of physics at

17 the time. It was such time that nobody thought that something else could

18 be in -- we never thought that in regular bottles of oxygen that would be

19 something else. It was just logical.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Even if there would have been liquid oxygen in it,

21 would it have a different weight in frozen or in liquid form?

22 A. I have no idea, I am afraid. I really don't.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.

24 Since you -- yes, Mr. Stamp. Is there any -- I have to look at

25 whether we should have a break because we have late already, to be quite

Page 13839

1 honest.

2 MR. STAMP: My question is very, very brief. Just the date of

3 this event that he was asked about, if he can tell us.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps that is in the general interest. Do you

5 remember the date of this incident?

6 A. This happened sometime -- I can't tell you the exact date, but it

7 was end of January, beginning of February 1993, end of January beginning

8 of February. It was around that time. I can't tell you the exact day.

9 It was winter, but it was a fine day.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I only have two

12 questions that stem only from the questions of the Chamber.

13 JUDGE ORIE: First of all to keep in mind that the interpreters

14 need some rest as well, and second that perhaps the tapes might have to be

15 changed, because we are already for one hour and a half in session. Yes,

16 we have five minutes on the tape, if you can do it within five minutes

17 that is fine. And then if the interpreters agree, and then we can have

18 the break.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Of course, Mr. President.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has to stay anyhow over the break because

22 of the marking of the map. So, therefore, perhaps we have a break now

23 until 5 minutes past 1.00. Then we will have the result of the marking,

24 and you can put your last questions. Yes. We adjourn until five minutes

25 past 1.00.

Page 13840

1 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Lazic, did you manage to mark the road? We will

4 have a look at it.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if this was

6 done under the control of both parties, may I be just permitted to point

7 out that the northern route, the one to the north, is an alternative route

8 mentioned by the witness as well, while the lower part was far too close

9 to the combat lines. So it was the alternative route, the northern route,

10 which goes outside of the map, to go around to get to Pale. That is what

11 the witness indicated, that is what the witness said to both parties.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since no one objects, this certainly has been

14 your explanation. So you had a northern more safe route, and a route

15 closer to the confrontation lines you often would not use. Is that how I

16 should understand it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely correct, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for marking this map. It gives

19 us an idea on how -- what route you had to take to go from Blazuj to Pale.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you had --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...questions.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President.

24 These questions, I will ask them in order.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

Page 13841

1 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, Witness, to a question asked by

2 Judge El Mahdi, you answered that General Galic was speaking to -- was

3 instructing the doctors, or rather talking about the doctors who were

4 treating everyone regardless as a model of humanity. This is page 65 line

5 12 and so on in the LiveNote.

6 Now my questions stemming from this is the following: What were

7 the circumstances that General Galic spoke of this? Was this on a private

8 occasion or was it something that was done more publicly? What do you

9 know about it?

10 A. General Galic came to visit the hospital as a General, to visit

11 the wounded, and he gave such statements during the visit which could be

12 considered as an official visit an official announcement. On those

13 occasions, what happened is that 50 per cent of the patients in hospital

14 injured were of different -- of another ethnicity, a Croat, a Muslim, and

15 he gave us an example of how doctors should act. So he could stress the

16 ethical side of our profession and how wounded are treated on the Serb

17 side.

18 Q. Very well, but my question was the following: It is clear in the

19 way in which he spoke about this, but was this to one or two people that

20 he told this or was there a larger audience? What do you know about it?

21 A. Well, certainly, it wasn't a press conference hall. He spoke to

22 the nurses, doctors, patients in the intensive care unit, in the staff

23 room. He spoke to a gathering of doctors and patients who were in

24 different wards. For instance, in the intensive care unit there would be

25 sometimes 15 patients at a time, and he would say, How are you? How are

Page 13842

1 you doing? And that is how it should be done.

2 Q. Thank you very much. I am going to go on to the second question

3 that I wanted to ask you, and it is the following: You said, and this is

4 page 66, line 10 and so on, you said that the people who were injured,

5 they could not be taken out during the day in the ambulance in 150

6 ambulance, if my recollection is correct. Why they could not be taken to

7 Pale in daytime?

8 A. So this was -- this happened -- this was occurring before I

9 arrived until the 1st of November, and later on it also happened that

10 people were taken either at dusk or at night because the improvised road

11 which was made going through the Serb municipalities all the way to Pale,

12 went very near the demarcation line. In some places, 200, 300 metres

13 only. I will give you an example of buildings, for instance, building in

14 a part of town under the control of Muslim troops. This was a building

15 that was either Batonija -- or Batonija building which was being

16 constructed of the clinical centre. It was in the process of being in

17 construction. From that building the, road was constantly being targeted

18 which was about 300 metres away.

19 So our engineers, our technicians made screens from wood, paper

20 cardboard, to protect the vehicles from view. When vehicles were going at

21 a distance of 800 or 1.000 metres. So the main reason was the vicinity of

22 the other side and the lorry was quite high, and its body was quite thin,

23 so it could be pierced through by bullets.

24 Q. In any case, was it possible to recognise these vehicles as

25 ambulances? Yes or no.

Page 13843

1 A. Ye. On the side, this vehicle had a large red cross, and I can

2 say that this symbol didn't mean a thing during the war in Sarajevo.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 Dr. Lazic, this concludes your examination in this Chamber. I

7 would like to thank you for having come a very long way to The Hague, and

8 to answer all the questions, both of the Defence and of the Prosecution

9 and of the Judges as well. I take it that you will find time to have this

10 cup of coffee I deprived you of at a later stage. Thank you for coming.

11 Mr. Usher, could you please escort Dr. Lazic out of the courtroom.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I have to say that

13 everyone was extremely kind to me. Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Before calling your next witness, Ms. Pilipovic, we

16 first deal with the documents that are -- two -- one -- no, the videotape

17 you said you would not tender into evidence. You tendered that? You

18 tendered that into evidence --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, we do want to

20 tender it as evidence. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That is the videotape with a Roman 3 on it and

22 something perhaps which is cassette but done in a language which is not a

23 language I understand, and also with the figures "5" and "11" on it. That

24 is the videotape you provided to us, yes. Perhaps it is good if you

25 provide the videotape again, that it is always clear what exactly it is.

Page 13844

1 Madam Registrar, that would have number --

2 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape is D1758/3. That is D1758/3. The

3 English transcript of the video is D1758/3A. The map marked by witness is

4 P3724.ML.

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I just have a look at the map. The original says

6 3274, but that is wrong. That is the wrong number, so that has been

7 clarified that a mistake has been made on this one. So it gets a new

8 number on it, a new sticker on it. And I have some doubts, since it has

9 been -- it now bear as "P" number, where it is -- yes, it is presented by

10 the Prosecution. So that is --

11 THE REGISTRAR: 3724.ML.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, then, before you call your next witness, I

13 would first like to -- if there is no objections so then the video and the

14 map marked by the witness are admitted into evidence. And I would like

15 now to turn into closed session just for a short while before calling your

16 next witness.

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honour?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in private session which in this

19 courtroom is the same thing as closed session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

25 the 16th day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.