1 Monday, 21 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to you everyone in and around the
6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number, IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Ms. Pilipovic, I see that you're alone. Mr. Piletta-Zanin will
11 arrive, or is he -- you don't know.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Piletta-Zanin
13 will arrive. He did not realise that there was a change in schedule. My
14 colleague had his ticket for the morning because the earlier schedule said
15 that we would be working in the afternoon. So that is why he is not here.
16 But I'm sure he will arrive by the break.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our monitors are not
20 JUDGE ORIE: The same is true for mine.
21 MR. IERACE: And the Prosecution's.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But some of the Judges do have monitors that are --
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the technician is working on that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I see it's functioning, Ms. Pilipovic.
25 Then I think the -- if the Prosecution is ready to continue the
1 cross-examination of Witness DP6, then please, Mr. Usher, escort the
2 witness into the courtroom.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP6.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you're still bound by the
7 solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony. And the
8 counsel for the Prosecution will now continue your cross-examination.
9 Mr. Ierace, please proceed. And statement, I see that the
10 screens -- our screens are partially gone again. I take it that the
11 technicians will take care that we -- well, at least we have still
12 got -- let's move on even if it's not -- if the screen is not
13 working -- yes, it is now.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS DP6 [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]
19 Q. Good morning, sir.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. On the last occasion you told us that the school for blind
22 children or the home for blind children was outside your part of the front
23 line. Why, then, did you go there so often?
24 A. I didn't say I was there all that often. I would go there once a
25 week to see to things and talk about things. And besides, I had friends
2 Q. Apart from the fact that you had friends there, why did you go
4 A. Well, I went to see their positions too and where the fire was
5 coming -- or going from and so ...
6 Q. You said last week that on the first floor you couldn't set guards
7 there because of security. What do you mean by that?
8 A. What I wanted to say about this -- because the hospital and
9 buildings across the street from us, they dominated over us. And if
10 you're on the first floor, you see further than if you're on the ground
12 Q. Why was there a need for security if you wanted to go upstairs in
13 those buildings?
14 A. Well, because of the gunfire, because -- because they could see us
15 better if we were on the first floor than if we were on the ground floor.
16 Q. And in the closest of the buildings to your part of the front
17 line, there were two floors above the ground floor; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And there were members of the SRK firing from those floors, were
20 there not?
21 A. You mean those two top floors?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I've just told you that we were downstairs on the ground floor.
24 Q. Sir, you --
25 A. And we only opened fire when fire was opened against us.
1 Q. That's not my question. I'm putting to you that there were
2 members of the SRK firing from the upper two floors.
3 A. Why, Mr. Prosecutor, I was in those -- in Nedzarici and I know
4 where the fire came from, at least when I was on my front line.
5 Q. Would you please answer the question. Do you agree or disagree?
6 A. I disagree with the claim because from the upper floors we dared
7 not fire, fearing for our own safety.
8 Q. Last week, you --
9 A. Because one observed from the upper floors, one goes up, looks
10 around, and takes shelter.
11 Q. Upstairs there were internal walls as well as the exterior walls,
12 weren't there?
13 A. What do you mean, interior? There was exterior and then there was
14 partitions inside between classrooms. If you mean the institute for the
15 blind, there were classrooms and dormitories for the children. There was
16 one exterior wall and there were partitions inside.
17 Q. I suggest to you that there were shooters in the internal rooms
18 positioned so that there were two walls between them and the outside as
19 you faced east towards the ABiH front line.
20 A. Two walls? Not one building had two walls. One -- they had only
21 one wall, the chief wall, that is, the exterior walls which were either
22 brick walls or concrete. And then -- in front there was the facade and
23 there was nothing. What two walls? There were no two walls.
24 Q. So you were very familiar with the layout of the institute for
25 blind children before the war, weren't you; yes or no?
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that last reply has to be
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, would you please take care of
7 that, lines -- page 4, line 25 up till 5, second line.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE:
10 Q. I suggest to you that in the building closest to your part of the
11 front line there were shooters in the internal rooms firing through
12 openings in the internal walls and then through windows on the external
13 wall towards the ABiH front line.
14 A. I didn't understand the beginning of your ...
15 Q. I'll repeat the question. In the building of the institute for
16 blind children, closest to your part of the front line, there were SRK
17 shooters operating from the internal rooms upstairs, firing through
18 openings made in those internal walls, and then through windows on the
19 external wall towards the ABiH front line.
20 A. We fired when we had to. Those people fired when they had to fire
21 at the BH Army.
22 Q. So let me put it to you this way: You cannot deny that from time
23 to time there was firing from that building, can you, because you weren't
24 there all the time, for a start?
25 A. Why, I wasn't. But we were close enough. And when there was
1 shooting, one could recognise where the fire came from, because I was
2 pretty familiar with Nedzarici. I'd lived there for 30 years.
3 Q. I suggest to you it is absurd to say that the SRK fired from the
4 ground floor but did not fire from the upper two storeys. What do you say
5 to that?
6 A. And I also and likewise claim that the fire was opened from the
7 ground floor and that the upper floors mostly were used to observe. And
8 I've just explained why we couldn't fire from upper floors, because there
9 were tall buildings dominating and one could see everything through the
11 Q. So the very reasons that made the upper storeys ideal for
12 observation made them also ideal for firing at ABiH positions, did they
14 A. What? What did you say, this last thing?
15 Q. The height afforded by the upper two storeys made it an ideal
16 position for both observation and for shooting at ABiH positions, I
17 suggest to you.
18 A. I'm saying that they were ideal, but we could not fire from those
19 upper floors because of what I just said, because of those tall buildings.
20 We could not stay there long enough to fire.
21 Q. As it is, you have told us that the institute buildings attracted
22 fire on a daily basis. Why would they fire at that building if there were
23 not positions occupied by the SRK for shooting at ABiH positions?
24 A. Fire was opened on the positions of the BH Army when they opened
25 fire first.
1 Q. All right.
2 A. And you have to ask them why they did it. And we had to defend
3 ourselves, so we had to open fire.
4 Q. So you have no explanation as to why they fired on that building
5 on a daily basis, given your evidence that there was not shooting from the
6 two upper storeys; is that correct? Not that you saw, in any event.
7 A. No. Fire was not opened from the upper two floors. I said that
8 shooting was done from the ground floor.
9 Q. All right. Now, last week you told us that you received orders
10 from your battalion commander, I think it was, to not hit civilians. Were
11 those orders received in writing?
12 A. It was usually done by induction telephone, that is, when one
13 calls from telephone to say not to open fire against civilians, women and
14 children, because that was strictly prohibited to us.
15 Q. Was it ever done in writing?
16 A. Well, truth to tell, I don't remember it was done in writing, but
17 I guess the battalion command received it from the brigade command and
18 they then would call us by inductor, because those inductor telephones
19 were connected serially.
20 Q. Did you regard it as a standing order?
21 A. That was a standing order. Such orders were issued -- well, every
22 day. Well, not every day exactly, but ...
23 Q. You have told us how immediately opposite your part of the front
24 line there were high-rise buildings on the ABiH side. Before the war,
25 were they residential apartment buildings, to your knowledge?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And during the war, civilians continued to live in that same area,
3 did they not?
4 A. No. The first buildings, the buildings which were on the front
5 lines, those buildings had been moved out, that is, people left because
6 there was gunfire. They went to the countryside.
7 Q. Between September 1992 and February --
8 A. In these buildings -- sorry. In those front buildings, the troops
9 were there in those buildings. I mean, Muslim troops were in those
11 Q. Between September 1992 and February 1993, did you ever see a
12 person on the ABiH side whom you believed to be a civilian?
13 A. What was it that you said? Between September and ...?
14 Q. September 1992 and February 1993, from your position on your part
15 of the front line, did you ever see civilians on the other side?
16 A. Well, we used to see them but not all that much, because it was --
17 I mean, there were screens and containers obstructing. People did that so
18 that they could move about safely, and one didn't really see them much,
19 both civilians -- equally civilians and military.
20 Q. Up until February 1993, when you saw ABiH military, were they
21 wearing uniforms or not wearing uniforms, or a combination?
22 A. Well, by and large they wore uniforms. I mean, if they were
23 military, they wore uniforms, uniforms and rifles.
24 Q. Between September 1992 and February 1993, did you ever fire on a
25 person not in a uniform?
1 A. We didn't. We didn't, because we had strict orders not to fire at
2 civilians, women, and children. They kept telling us over the telephone
3 that we were not to fire on civilians, women, and children, and we didn't
4 as far as I know.
5 Q. All right. So if I understand you correctly, if you saw a male of
6 military age not wearing a uniform, you did not fire upon that person; is
7 that correct?
8 A. I wouldn't, because you cannot see whether a man is of military
9 age or not, because if you see someone at a distance, you can see that
10 it's a civilian, then naturally you don't fire at him because that is what
11 our orders were.
12 Q. And you accept that if there was any doubt in your mind as to
13 whether the person you could see was military or civilian, if there was
14 any doubt, then you should not target that person; correct?
15 A. Yes. Yes, one was not supposed to open fire then.
16 Q. Now, you were asked by Madam Pilipovic last week whether there was
17 any investigation in that period, September 1992 to February 1993, any
18 investigation as to the possible shooting of civilians, and you replied
19 that your orders were to not shoot civilians. Could you please answer the
20 question directly: Are you aware of any investigation carried out within
21 the SRK as to the possible shooting of any civilians on the ABiH side by
22 SRK forces?
23 A. I am not aware of that.
24 Q. Did you ever hear stories of any investigations of that nature in
25 that time period?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am trying to follow
3 the examination by my learned friend as far as I can remember. There were
4 no questions about investigations to this witness. So with my apologies,
5 I'd like my learned friend to say on which side and when was that. Or
6 perhaps during a break we could find --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you ask the witness to take his
8 headphones off for a second, and you'd like to respond.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't know if I have the page. It's
10 page 53 in my hard copy from the 16th of - excuse me - from the 16th of
11 October, but those pages don't match. Mr. Mundis will locate it. I'll
12 read the question. That might assist.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. "Mr. DP6, when your subordinates reported to you about the
16 situation in their areas of responsibility, did you ever get a report that
17 somebody had hit a civilian or that some civilians -- that there were some
18 civilian casualties? Did you ever receive such a report?"
19 Answer: "Excuse me. I said a moment ago that we were forbidden to
20 fire at civilians, the elderly and children. I said that a moment ago."
21 JUDGE ORIE: The objection by Ms. Pilipovic is that there was
22 nothing about investigations.
23 MR. IERACE: That's true, Mr. President. There wasn't mention of
24 the word "investigation." Rather, a reference to reports of such
1 JUDGE ORIE: But isn't it true that if nothing is reported, that
2 there would be no need to investigate? Or is that -- I still have some
3 difficulties with the link between negative answer on your question or
4 reporting and investigations.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the need for an investigation may
6 arise without reports from within the SRK. The need for investigation can
7 arise by, for instance, notice worthy of investigation coming from
8 UNPROFOR. But I must say that I think it was inappropriate for me to use
9 the word "investigation" in the sense that my learned colleague had
10 included that in a question. And for that, I apologise. It's more a
11 question of reports.
12 But Mr. President, I would persevere with my last question, which
13 is not contingent upon that answer, that last question being essentially,
14 did he ever hear of any investigations within the SRK.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would that then touch upon the subject matter covered
16 in chief, or would this be a 90(H) case of the Prosecution question?
17 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, the -- if you're asking me what
18 the relevance of the question is --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. IERACE: Yes. The relevance is this: That there is some --
21 first of all, the accused in the pre-trial brief filed by the Defence has
22 said that there was no need for any investigation of allegations of
23 targeting of civilians by his subordinates because no one ever gave him
24 sufficient information to allow such an investigation to take place.
25 However, we have heard in the Prosecution case a large body of evidence of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 notice in what I anticipate the Trial Chamber would accept was sufficient
2 detail of such incidents to warrant an investigation; in other words, that
3 a reasonable commander in the position of the accused at the time of
4 receiving that notice would have felt obliged to take what steps were in
5 his power to carry out an investigation.
6 Given that evidence, it is appropriate to enquire whether in fact
7 any investigations were carried out. Secondly, there is some evidence in
8 the Prosecution case that the accused indeed acknowledged that there was a
9 need for investigation and said that he would investigate, although no
10 response or no follow-up was ever made available to the complainers. So
11 that's the -- the relevance of it, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, but let's just keep in mind that on
13 the last issue on the upper floors, it took a lot of time, where it -- I
14 wondered at a certain moment whether it would assist any further to put
15 any further questions to the witness in that respect. Would you please
16 keep that in mind if you continue.
17 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.
18 And the page reference is 13903 at line 1.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
21 I notice Ms. Pilipovic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence's
24 question is if my learned colleague can tell me which witnesses of the
25 Prosecution stated that they reported to any body responsible for
1 reporting incidents. The Defence questions to all the Prosecution
2 witnesses were, even if there was some kind of incident that took place:
3 Did they ever inform anybody that this incident had taken place?
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think the questions asked by the
5 Defence of victims and witnesses were to the effect as to whether they
6 reported it to the UN or to the police. The notice to which I refer is
7 notice given to General Galic personally or to his senior subordinates --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Just try to shortcut. Do I understand you,
9 Mr. Ierace, that you're referring to the evidence which is reports not
10 always of specific incidents but of -- attacks on civilians by sniping, is
11 the word that was used by witnesses, or was in the question rather than
12 specific incidents being reported? And while Ms. Pilipovic is asking --
13 is referring to specific incidents, rather than to general complaints at
14 the higher levels in the SRK about sniping.
15 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. In a general sense, that's so.
16 There is some more specific information according to the evidence that was
17 passed on to the senior echelons of SRK, including the accused. But
18 essentially, it is as you've put it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed and keep in mind what I
20 said before.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. So you told us that when you could not see the source of fire from
23 the -- I'll start again. I think you just put your headphones on. You
24 told us that when you could not see the source of fire from the ABiH side,
25 on those occasions sometimes it was possible to hear where the fire was
1 coming from.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How would you respond in those circumstances? In other words,
4 would you return fire to a source that you could not see but you judged
5 according to the sound?
6 A. Usually we would wait and try to hear where the fire was coming
7 from. And then if it was necessary for us to open fire, we would do so.
8 Q. I take it that -- I'm sorry. I take it that -- well, when you say
9 you would open fire, do you mean with small arms or with mortars or what?
10 A. From infantry weapons.
11 Q. Including mortars?
12 A. The mortars would be used only when this was necessary. They
13 would not be used in the case of these, I don't know, small, minor
14 provocations. As long as we could defend ourselves with infantry weapons,
15 then we would only use those weapons. Because we had to justify that.
16 You couldn't just shoot anyhow. You would always have to justify the
17 ammunition used, how much of it was spent, why, and so on.
18 Q. Yes. I'll come to that in a moment. When you arranged or ordered
19 for mortar fire to be used, in particular where you could not see the
20 source of fire but could only hear it, what steps, if any, did you take to
21 assess whether mortar fire would pose risks or could pose risks to
22 civilians in that area?
23 A. First of all, I didn't order for the mortars to be used. The
24 command of the battalion would be informed first and then the battalion
25 command would decide. But if it was necessary to use mortar fire, once we
1 assessed where the firing was coming from - because there were maps - then
2 we would say where the firing was coming from. These were more or less
3 positions of the B and H Army. So we would fire at those positions.
4 Q. The maps presumably were reasonably detailed in terms of the
5 territory of the ABiH; is that correct?
6 A. May I say, I personally knew where their positions were. Those
7 were the buildings in front of us and where the firing was coming from.
8 And as I said, I would inform the battalion the firing is coming from --
9 usually we would mark those buildings with numbers 1, 2, 3, or A, B, C, so
10 we would say that the firing was coming from such and such a building. And
11 then I don't know how the procedure then continued as far as the mortars
12 were concerned, but that's -- that's how it was.
13 Q. The fire that hit those buildings in front of you after September
14 1992, you've told us, set them alight, the gunfire. What particular types
15 of weapons caused the buildings to catch alight?
16 A. The buildings were set on fire both by the infantry weapons and by
17 the mortars, not just by the mortars.
18 Q. Apart from mortars -- please wait. Apart from mortar, was
19 artillery used against those high-rise buildings in front of you?
20 A. What artillery weapons? What are you -- what do you -- what are
21 you thinking of?
22 Q. Weapons such as Howitzers or tanks or field guns.
23 A. No, that was not used.
24 Q. Anti-aircraft guns?
25 A. No. The anti-aircraft guns were not used. They -- we didn't even
1 have them.
2 Q. The student hostels you have told us contained ABiH positions.
3 Were not -- was not artillery used against those buildings?
4 A. I don't know that because I really don't know. I don't think that
5 they were used, but I don't know.
6 Q. Sir, a mortar is not a particularly effective weapon against a
7 high-rise building, is it?
8 A. No, it's not.
9 Q. I suggest to you that the buildings, that is, the high-rise
10 buildings opposite your position and further along Ante Babica Street,
11 were targeted with direct fire artillery weapons.
12 A. I claim that for as long as I was there, that was not the case,
13 because it is impossible. I don't know -- I don't know -- with a tank or
14 something else to fire at the student hostel. I don't know where you
15 would be able to fire from for a tank to come close in order to fire at
16 the student hostel, since this settlement was in Nedzarici and there were
17 no tanks at Nedzarici, so the grenade couldn't go between the houses in
18 order to hit the student hostel or a high-rise building, no.
19 Q. Do I understand your evidence to only cover the period up until
20 February of 1993, that is, that aspect of your evidence?
21 A. You asked me about the period between September and February 28th,
23 Q. Yes. And then in your answer -- excuse me.
24 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the transcript doesn't seem to record
2 a reference by the witness to 1993. Perhaps it will come out in the
3 corrected transcript. I'll rephrase the question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I see in page 16, line 24 that the witness said:
5 "You asked me about the period between September and February 28th,
7 MR. IERACE: Yes. In the previous long answer there was a
8 reference to 1993. In any event ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
11 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that the student building -- of the two
12 student buildings, at least the southernmost, did not have walls, only
13 floors, by late 1993. In other words, it was possible to see through the
14 building across the internal floors from one side to the other. What do
15 you say about that?
16 A. How could you see through the building? This is really not clear
17 to me. You could not see through the building. For me to be able to see
18 from here - and there's a wall there - for me to be able to see somewhere
19 is there 500 or 1.000 metres away.
20 Q. You understand that it's a high-rise building, that is,
21 the -- both buildings are of a similar construction, with concrete floors
22 and walls between those floors, so that the building could continue to
23 stand if the walls were removed. And I suggest to you that's what
24 happened; the building was constantly attacked, to a point where it was
25 possible to look through the building, across the floors.
1 A. I claim that it was not possible to see. I said the last time
2 that that building also was on fire, the walls were black, and also on top
3 of that you couldn't see. How could you possibly see through it? There's
4 no way that you can. The building across from me also was a student
5 hostel, so it was the same. It was made of cement blocks. So it wasn't
6 possible to see through.
7 Q. All right. Now, if you -- I withdraw that.
8 Whilst you were on that part of the front line, did you ever see
9 vehicles on the other side of the confrontation line which did not have
10 any military markings?
11 A. You could not see the vehicles because this was -- I am repeating
12 this for I don't know how many times. Barriers were erected, paravents,
13 containers, so that it wasn't possible to see.
14 Q. Barriers were not 100 per cent effective in terms of blocking your
15 view though, were they? There were gaps in the barriers, I suggest to
17 A. You could see the -- in the places where one came next to the
18 other. But there were gaps between the boards or the cars or whatever.
19 But they were not very big. It wasn't possible to see much. I know what
20 we did. If there are joints, then you would place blankets or something
21 at those places in order to make the gap where things could be visible
22 only 2 or 3 centimetres wide or perhaps 5 centimetres.
23 Q. There was nothing in the standing orders that you received in
24 relation to civilians that prevented you from targeting military vehicles
25 on the ABiH side, was there, if you had seen them?
1 A. There were orders, like I said before, not to fire at civilians.
2 Military vehicles -- nobody said, "fire at military vehicles". But if
3 they opened fire at us, we had to fire back. We had to defend ourselves.
4 Q. If you had seen a truck with civilian markings on it, such as a
5 delivery van, in terms of the orders that you received, would there be
6 anything preventing you from hitting such a vehicle, a civilian vehicle
7 with markings suggesting a delivery truck?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend
10 asked about written orders, but Witness DP6 said that there were never any
11 written orders that they received but that they mostly received orders
12 over the telephone. So I think that this matter might be creating some
14 JUDGE ORIE: In my transcript and in my understanding of the
15 English language used, it was just about orders and not about written
16 orders. Is that correct, Mr. Ierace?
17 MR. IERACE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It must be a translation problem.
19 MR. IERACE: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Would you have regarded a civilian -- I withdraw that. Would you
23 have regarded a -- what appeared to be a delivery truck of a civilian
24 nature as being a target prohibited by the orders you received had you
25 seen such a vehicle?
1 A. Everything that was civilian, naturally we would not fire at;
2 anything that was civilian.
3 Q. And I take it in determining whether or not something was
4 civilian, you were guided by the appearance, whether it's a person or
5 whether it's a vehicle carrying persons; is that correct?
6 A. Could you please repeat your question.
7 Q. In determining -- I'll confine it to a vehicle. In determining
8 whether a vehicle travelling along a road is an appropriate target, you'd
9 be guided by the appearance of that vehicle, would you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. You told us last week that you had to report your
12 expenditure of ammunition. Did you do that in writing or did you do that
13 just by voice?
14 A. We would notify by telephone the brigade command. We would say on
15 such and such a day so much 7.62 or 7.9 ammunition was spent and they
16 would write that down at the brigade command, how much was spent and what
18 Q. All right. So you did it by phone to the brigade command and you
19 understood that the brigade did it in writing, in terms of going further
20 up the chain from there; is that correct?
21 A. Probably, yes.
22 Q. All right.
23 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one question
3 that the Defence wishes to ask; of course, with your permission. We would
4 like to use the presence of this witness and see if he can tell us how far
5 the theological faculty was away from the front line held by the company,
6 the company of Witness DP6.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, we have a lot of maps. Is there
8 disagreement between the parties as to the distance between these two
9 buildings on the map? Because otherwise it will give no more precise
10 information. So I wonder whether this is something where we are much
11 assisted by the perhaps precise, perhaps unprecise, knowledge of the
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm not sure that we've marked on the
14 map the theological institute. I have no objection to the witness doing
15 that, if he could, if it's not already done.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know. Ms. Pilipovic, you could perhaps ask
17 the witness to mark it on the map and then I'd say we'll measure what the
18 distance approximately is. I think that's preferable than to know that
19 it's 300 or 700 or -- well, whatever distance. Please proceed then.
20 Could perhaps the witness be shown that same map. I think
21 that's --
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That is D1760, if I'm correct.
24 MR. IERACE: If we could perhaps identify the relevant marking
25 which is already on the map, Mr. President, in terms of the printed map.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think I do not see the -- well, if the parties
2 would agree -- now, let me just ask the witness to take off his
4 If the parties would agree that a building which answers
5 "fakultet" on the map, which that would be the building, then it's --
6 there's no need at all.
7 Ms. Pilipovic.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's ask the witness if
9 that building, where it states "teoloski fakultet," "the theological
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may ask the witness.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I won't have any more questions
13 than that.
14 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DP6, this place where "fakultet" ends --
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please. Could you place it
17 on the ELMO.
18 Q. Witness DP6, could you please tell us, this place where the word
19 "fakultet" ends, is that the theological faculty?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you please tell us --
22 JUDGE ORIE: We've now lost the picture. For the sake of the
23 record, the witness was pointing with his finger to a place on the map
24 where it reads "Teoloski Fakultet."
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness DP6, could you please tell us, how far is the theological
2 faculty away from the line, the front line where you say your company was?
3 A. About 800 metres or so.
4 Q. Can you tell us in relation to Olimpijska Street, the place where
5 the word "Mojmilo" is. That's where the Olimpijska Street is. So in
6 relation to that street, the beginning of that street, how far is the
7 theological faculty from there?
8 A. About 1400 or 1500 metres, something like that.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the witness might remove his
12 earphones quickly, briefly.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP6, could you take off your earphones for a
15 Yes, please.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this is a map that's been provided by
17 the Defence. I would be grateful if the Defence could say that they
18 accept that each of the squares indicated on the map is 1 kilometre by 1
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this moment I
22 don't have the whole map in front of me in order to check whether the
23 squares are 1 by 1 kilometre. I could do that in the break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Since this is only half the map.
1 And once I check that, then in future that will not be something
2 that is disputed, that each square represents 1 kilometre. But at this
3 point, I am not in a position to say.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you what further information you would have
5 if you have got the whole map? I mean, what would that change,
6 Ms. Pilipovic?
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we have the
8 scale on the map somewhere, when we have the map as a whole.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that. If you want to have the
10 scale. Just perhaps for your guidance on other maps, I usually took the
11 runway of the airport as being approximately 2 and a half kilometres and
12 that is a --
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the reason I ask that is if it's
14 common ground that whatever the scale indicated is the scale, then I don't
15 seek leave to ask any more questions on that issue.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you'll be able to agree on that.
17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. President, I would like to say that we
18 don't have the squares here. They are not the squares.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I understood to be the squares, the blue
20 lines. But if that is not what you ...
21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour. I take your point. They're
22 not quite square. And therefore, I'll be guided by the scale of the map.
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Not entirely. I do agree. They're almost squares.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP6, the Judges also have some questions for you.
2 Judge Nieto-Navia will first put some questions to you.
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Do you have the map? No, you don't. The map,
5 yes. And I think that we need a thin pen, green or red or --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Green would be a perfect colour, perhaps, for the
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. DP6, you'll told us that there were some
9 barriers, screens, and containers and things like that at the Ante Babica
10 Street. Do you remember that?
11 A. I do.
12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Would you draw a line showing that barrier.
13 A. At every intersection from which I could -- one could see streets
14 coming together, these barriers were put up, as we called them, containers
15 or screens. And here too.
16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. No more questions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 [Interpretation] I'd like you to tell me about some details. You
21 said that you and your comrades were equipped with weapons, with rifles.
22 Who was it, you or your comrades? How did you organise yourselves?
23 Spontaneously, or did you depend on a group which was linked with the
24 headquarters, with the staff? Could you tell us that, please.
25 A. We were organised in the Territorial Defence, and I and my
1 comrades -- I and my colleagues -- I'm talking about those men with whom I
2 was together on Lukavicka Cesta as the Territorial Defence. And later on
3 when the army, when the Yugoslav People's Army, pulled out of the
4 barracks, we were told that we should go to fetch the weapons. And we
5 went to the barracks and we went in groups, not all at once. We were in
6 groups of 10 or 15. So we go there, get the weapons, then the next group
7 goes there and takes weapons for it and so on.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if I understand you well, you
9 always depended on the Romanija Corps, did you?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So the orders came to
12 you from the corps staff via the brigade, battalion, down to the company;
13 is that it?
14 A. I do not know where the orders came from. All I know is that we
15 were told to go to the barracks to get those weapons. I really do not
16 know where the orders came, whether it was the corps command or something
17 else. I mean, it was a higher instance. I was just an ordinary soldier
18 and I was also told to go there. That's all I know.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You were shown a
20 photograph too. On this photograph, there were one or two houses which
21 were destroyed in part, and you told us that you recognised them, that it
22 was in a part of Nedzarici. Do you remember that?
23 A. I do.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Do you remember -- that is, did
25 you tell us that those buildings and that destruction happened in
1 Nedzarici, or did you yourself recognise the place, the buildings
2 specifically shown in that particular photograph? I do not know if I am
3 quite clear. Perhaps I will rephrase my question? Do you want me to?
4 A. Yes, could you please.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Do you remember a photograph
6 showing buildings partially destroyed?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps --
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the -- D1762 will be shown to the witness.
10 Perhaps it could be put on the ELMO.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So yes, it is this photograph
12 here. Do you recognise the exact place, or --
13 A. I do.
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] This photograph, can you confirm
15 to us, can you really say that this photograph represents a neighbourhood
16 or buildings that you recognise in Nedzarici?
17 A. I'm quite sure.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: And do you think that these buildings were on the
19 front line? Were they in the protected area, or were those buildings
20 where the front line was, buildings that you used as trenches against
21 buildings across the street or across -- against the other side?
22 A. These buildings were right next to the front line, these houses
23 here, right next to it. They followed Lukavicka -- they were on Lukavicka
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So they were behind your lines?
1 A. No, no, no. They were right on the front line, right next to the
2 front line, because all the front houses, all the front houses burnt down
3 by summer, by September. All the houses that were in front had been put
4 fire to and burnt down, those which were along the front line. And in the
5 rear you would find a house burnt down here and there. Otherwise --
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you took shelter in those
7 buildings there, didn't you? So these are buildings which one could say
8 were part of the front line.
9 A. Yes, yes, yes.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now a question: To
11 your knowledge, do you see if there were any women who participated in the
12 fighting on the other side, I mean, on the -- on the side of the army of
13 the presidency? Were there any women participating in the -- in combat?
14 A. On the other side? On the BH Army side?
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, on the BH Army
17 A. Well, I couldn't know -- how could I? I didn't know whether they
18 participated or not. I really couldn't. How could I know that?
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you yourself, you did not see
20 any women combatants?
21 A. I did not.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP6, I've got a few questions for you as well.
24 Could perhaps be put on the ELMO again the map, D1760.
25 Mr. DP6, you told us about barriers that were erected on your
1 side. Could you tell us where these barriers were and how they were
2 erected, by these containers or cars or whatever. But first, where were
3 they put? Could you point at it with the pointer.
4 A. [Indicates] These barriers of ours were put where I was, here.
5 Here, along this street, then here also, along this street, then
6 lengthwise. Since we could not walk the street -- walk around the streets
7 in Nedzarici, we put the screens or barriers, as you call them, between
8 houses, so that we would zigzag between the houses and around the houses
9 to get to, say, the rear of Nedzarici or the command or get to Ilidza to
10 have a bath, if there happened to be water and so on and so forth. And in
11 these streets that I showed here, they were put up here and here. In
12 Nedzarici there weren't all that many long streets.
13 Between houses in Nedzarici, we also put them up there where we
14 wanted to pass by so that the other side couldn't see us.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Were they effective?
16 A. Why, yes, more or less. But we usually moved around at night. We
17 took shifts -- we changed shifts at night and we moved around at night,
18 because all around we had all those high-rise buildings, no matter how
19 high were our screens, one could see us from above, because the beginning
20 of the war taught us that. We had very low barriers, then we realised
21 they served no purpose. And besides, there was also wind and they would
22 fall down and so -- so that we mostly moved around at night. We changed
23 guards at night. At night we delivered food, so that -- because that was
24 when we could move about.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how were they made? You said wind, and
1 that suggests that sheets were used. Did you also use containers?
2 A. We did, yes. In the rear, we used mostly sheets, or blankets.
3 And on the high street, on the main street, we used containers and
4 blankets and some other screens. But inside Nedzarici it was usually some
5 blankets or some plywood or some other boards, so that the wind wouldn't
6 turn them upside down and then we would keep them -- hold them together
7 with wire or some rope or something.
8 JUDGE ORIE: My next question would be -- first of all, for the
9 sake of the record, when the witness pointed at places where barriers were
10 erected, he was pointing at side roads where they issue on the Lukavicka
11 Cesta, on where he indicated sometimes before. Those coming from a
12 south-westerly direction.
13 My next question would be: You have told repeatedly that there
14 was a strict prohibition to fire at civilians and those who had a civilian
15 appearance. This Chamber has heard some evidence of people with a
16 civilian appearance being hit quite close to where these confrontation
17 lines were. Would you have an explanation as how they were hit where you
18 were under strict prohibition to fire at whatever person with a civilian
19 appearance or object with a civilian appearance?
20 A. I really don't know, but - and I'm being very truthful - there
21 were such orders, and we heeded them, and I always emphasise it. And when
22 we had meetings, I mean company commanders with the battalion commander,
23 he always pointed that out. He always emphasised that we were not to fire
24 on civilians, at women, at children, at the elderly, that this was not
25 done. But now I can't say whether individuals did fire at them, because I
1 really didn't know that. I didn't know that. Or did somebody tell me
2 that he'd hit a civilian or a woman or a child? Nobody ever told me that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us that -- perhaps not on an everyday
4 basis but quite frequently these orders were repeated. Would you have an
5 explanation why it had to be repeated so frequently if this order was
6 always strictly obeyed?
7 A. Well, most probably -- as likely as not. I don't really know. I
8 only know that it was repeated frequently. I suppose somebody suggested
9 it to somebody, that somebody suggested it to the battalion command, and
10 that is why they did it all that often. But I really don't know why was
11 it so often and how was it that it was so often.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers, Mr. DP6. This concludes
13 your examination in this court. I know that that was a very long
14 examination for you. You spent here altogether, well, not a full four
15 days but at least two full days and two parts of a day. I thank you very
16 much for coming and for answering all the questions, both of the parties
17 and the Judges, since it is important for this Court to hear the testimony
18 of those who have been present at the relevant times and at the relevant
19 places. So thank you very much, and I hope you have a safe trip home
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'd like
22 to thank you for treating me decently, and I'd like to thank all those
23 present. And I'd most of all like to thank those girls who meet us, who
24 welcome us in that little room, who help us relax, talk with us. But
25 otherwise, everything was fine. Everything was great. So thank you very
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'll tell the unit that you're very happy with the
3 way they treated you. Thank you.
4 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. All the best
7 to you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Unless there's any other issue to be discussed at
10 this very moment, we'll adjourn until 11.00. And I then take it that the
11 Defence is ready to call its next witness. And that will be --
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is in fact an issue.
13 JUDGE ORIE: There is an issue.
14 MR. IERACE: Whether measures should be granted. Perhaps we
15 should go into private session now or when we return.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we'll do that when we return.
17 MR. IERACE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But before doing so, there was one outstanding issue
19 of some information still to be provided by the Defence to the
20 Prosecution, if I remember well.
21 There's the map, but there was another issue, I think, in respect
22 of protective measures.
23 MR. IERACE: Yes. And that hasn't been done.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It hasn't been done.
25 MR. IERACE: And that's relevant to the next witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd first -- then for the remaining two minutes,
2 I'd like to turn into private or closed session, which is the same in this
4 [Closed session]
13 Pages 14101-14122 – redacted – closed session
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.
12 My issue would be that we still have to decide on the exhibits
13 presented to Witness DP6. Mr. Ierace, what would you like to raise in
14 open session?
15 MR. IERACE: I'm informed by the Defence that the appropriate
16 scale for the map that was used with the last witness is 1 to 20.000, and
17 I'm grateful for that.
18 And this afternoon I anticipate that the Prosecution will file
19 some -- some information in relation to protective measures, issues which
20 may assist the Trial Chamber. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
22 We have to deal with the exhibits from Witness DP6.
23 Madam Registrar, could you please indicate to us which witness -- which
24 documents were tendered.
25 THE REGISTRAR: All right. One is P3752.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And that is a --
2 THE REGISTRAR: That photo.
3 JUDGE ORIE: A photograph.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Marked by the witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: And then D1759. That is the pseudonym name sheet.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: And then D1760. It's a map marked by the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: We just talked about it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is 1762 the right number? I've got one copy which
12 says 1760, but -- do find out about the --
13 THE REGISTRAR: 1760 is the map.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is the map.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I --
17 THE REGISTRAR: We used a while ago.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And that is --
19 THE REGISTRAR: And 1762.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That is a photo of the building.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But isn't it true that 1760 was tendered in
23 relation to this witness as well?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, marked by him.
1 Okay. If there are no objections, all these documents are
2 admitted into evidence.
3 Then Mr. Usher, could you please escort the next witness into the
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, am I correct, all these exhibits need
6 to be entered under seal?
7 JUDGE ORIE: They have to be -- I would say --
8 MR. IERACE: I don't think the map is, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The map is certainly --
10 MR. IERACE: Is not.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is not under seal.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Okay.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Would the Defence agree? Yes. Then that's not under
15 Is the marking of -- the photographs are not under seal either,
16 are they? It's only the name sheet, I think, that --
17 THE REGISTRAR: That needs to be under seal.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that one is under seal and the other
19 exhibits are admitted without any restriction.
20 THE REGISTRAR: So only D1759 under seal.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: And then P3752.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Simply, I wish to remind you
2 of something.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is, with regard to
5 Exhibit 1762, the Defence has indicated that they did not intend to tender
6 it as an exhibit. I don't know if we are talking about the second
7 photograph. It's simply a formal matter. If the Prosecution wishes to
8 tender it so that we -- but I think it's important to make it known that
9 we are not the ones who are tendering it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I'm happy to tender that
12 photograph as a Prosecution exhibit.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, one question has been put
14 to the witness by the Bench as well, so therefore it might be wise to have
15 it admitted into evidence. So if you tender -- then we'll have to change
16 the number again in the P number.
17 Would the Defence be willing, although it's not vital for their
18 case, to tender that document into evidence? Otherwise we'll change the
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We accept
21 it. We shall be happy to accept that. It was merely to clarify matters.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then it's admitted as D1762.
23 I apologise for you, Mr. Witness. I'll not use your name. First
24 of all, may I ask you whether you can hear me a language you can
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not going to use your name, since protective
3 measures have been granted in respect of you. That means that no one out
4 of this courtroom can see your face and that we'll not mention your name.
5 Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure and
6 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the
7 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The usher will now
8 hand out the text of this declaration. May I invite you to make that
9 solemn declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS DP4
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by counsel for the Defence.
17 Ms. Pilipovic.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, since the protective measures have been
21 granted to you, the Defence wishes to show you a document to look at your
22 particulars on it and confirm that they are correct, and we shall, both we
23 and the Prosecution, will address you as DP4, rather than by your name.
24 A. Yes. These are my particulars.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence merely
2 wishes to say that when I finish, my colleague will also ask a few
3 questions, with your leave, as before.
4 Q. Mr. DP4, good morning.
5 A. Good morning.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would
7 like to go into private session for Mr. DP4 to tell us something about
8 himself, where he lives, where he was born, where he worked.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn in to closed session.
10 [Closed session]
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. DP4, you told us that until the -- that before the war you
6 worked -- you told us where you worked. Can you tell us briefly when,
7 according to you, the conflict broke out in the city of Sarajevo.
8 A. In the city of Sarajevo, the real conflict started towards the end
9 of April or in the early days of May. But from the beginning of April, we
10 started feeling the tension mount, but the proper conflict started in the
11 early days of May 1992.
12 Q. When you say "the real conflict started in the early days of May,"
13 can you tell us specifically in the part of the city that you lived in,
14 did something happen there, in the beginning of May, as you say?
15 A. Concretely, on the 14th of May, Muslim forces tried to take our
16 neighbourhood on a large scale, presumably to get to the Sarajevo airport
17 because of its strategic importance.
18 Q. When you say "the 14th of May," that there was an attack on your
19 locality, can you tell us what you did, that is, you personally, what did
20 you undertake? And if you know, what did other citizens in the area do?
21 A. The inhabitants in our neighbourhood community organised
22 themselves in the beginning. That is, throughout April there was some
23 kind of guards mounted. We had good relations with Stupska Petlja
24 neighbourhood community, which was predominantly Muslim and Croat, but we
25 nevertheless mounted guards to be on the safe side. We were not
1 particularly well armed. Until the 14th of May, there were no open
2 attacks and we didn't expect any. But on the 14th of May, their forces
3 came early, accompanied by an APC. They were well armed.
4 Q. Mr. DP4, can you tell us what kind of weapon did you have?
5 A. On the 14th of May, I had an ordinary rifle, M-48, which we were
6 issued by the civil defence.
7 Q. When you say you had a rifle M-48 that you were issued with by the
8 civil defence, can you tell us when were you issued with it and where?
9 A. I was issued with the rifle in the neighbourhood communities
10 premises in Nedzarici in mid-April 1992.
11 Q. Can you tell us about your other neighbours, if I may call them
12 that. Do you know how they got armed -- or rather, were they armed and
13 how did they come by their weapons?
14 A. They were armed in part. Members of the reserve police across
15 Sarajevo had automatic rifles which they took home, that is, those
16 policemen had automatic rifles. Individuals had [inaudible] or perhaps
17 hunting weapons and some pistols and also some of the weapons of the civil
18 defence, which the neighbourhood community staff somehow procured. I
19 don't know how.
20 Q. Witness DP4, you told us that Nedzarici was attacked on the 14th
21 of May and that Muslims had [inaudible] arms. Can you tell us from which
22 positions did you reject an attack, if I may put it that way?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, but I'd like
24 to say that we are not getting anything from the French booth.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Is there a specific problem?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can hear you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] All right, then. We can move on.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I reply to the question?
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Yes, Mr. DP4.
6 A. Specifically, the attack was repulsed in the area of [inaudible]
7 and the flower shop, behind the family houses where we lived, this
8 specific attack on my line, that I know of.
9 Q. Mr. DP4, I wanted to ask you certain questions about your line.
10 You say that you were self-organised. How many of you were there on that
11 line of yours?
12 A. There were about 30 of us on my line, on this specific position,
13 which we later formed after this attack and we stayed there until the end.
14 Q. Mr. DP4, when you said that you formed your line and that it
15 stayed there in that place until the end of the war, can you please tell
16 us whether there were any and what were the positions of the other side.
17 How shall I put it? When you were talking about defence now and the
18 attacks which were directed against you. Can you please a little more
19 specific and clarify that for us.
20 A. Specifically, in the area where I was throughout the war, their
21 lines were the newly built cement facilities of Cenex then the market, the
22 house of Ikic across the street from the market, and then new facilities,
23 the Betonara, the cement works and other facilities such as the fire
24 tower. They even fired at us from the -- the refrigerating plant at Stup.
25 Q. Mr. DP4, when you say that there were 30 of you at your line, can
1 you please tell us how you were organised. Were you organised into a
2 formation and what was it?
3 A. In that period, we were not organised as a real military
4 formation. People simply, in that part of the neighbourhood where they
5 lived, formed a kind of guard, a defence guard in that period.
6 Q. Can you tell us when you became a real formation. When was this?
7 A. There was some kind of structuring into a proper army during the
8 month of June 1992, although only at the end of September 1992 could an
9 increased level of military organisation be sensed. Discipline, certain
10 requested for us or demands upon us as soldiers, our responsibility and so
12 Q. When you said "towards us as soldiers," can you tell us how you
13 were dressed as soldiers. Did you have any characteristic indications or
14 markings that you were soldiers, insignia?
15 A. In the beginning we were not dressed as proper soldiers. If
16 somebody did have that, they had that from being a part of the reserve
17 forces and that's what they were able to wear. So it was all mixed. Some
18 people were in civilian clothes, some people had some kind of military or
19 police uniform.
20 Q. Can you tell us what was the name of the formation that you
21 belonged to?
22 A. In our neighbourhood our battalion, our unit was called Battalion
24 Q. When you say "battalion," were you organised at your line as a
25 battalion or a part of a battalion, or did you have a formation which had
1 a certain title and belonged to the battalion?
2 A. We were organised into companies and we communicated through them
3 and received information back from them.
4 Q. Which company did you belong to?
5 A. To the 2nd Company of the 2nd Battalion of Nedzarici.
6 Q. Mr. DP4, if I showed you a map of Sarajevo, would you be able to
7 indicate and mark to us on that map the place or the line where you were,
8 as well as the places from where there were actions by the members of the
9 B and H Army.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Before I show you a map, the Defence would like to point out that
12 we are talking about the period in 1992, September 1993 and 1994. And if
13 you can tell us whether in that period the front lines on one or the other
14 side moved. And this is according to what you know because these lines --
15 you were there throughout the war.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it may be a translation issue, but the
17 way the English was translated and indeed transcribed, it reads "the
18 period in 1992, September 1993 and 1994."
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was a mistake. It
20 was September 1992, 1993, 1994. I can see it in the transcript. I think
21 that was the way I put my question.
22 Q. Witness DP4, the Defence would like to show you a map. Could you
23 please mark on this map the line, the front line where you were.
24 A. Yes, I can.
25 Q. Witness DP4, I didn't get an answer to your question about the
1 lines. September 1992, 1993, 1994.
2 A. I didn't understand.
3 Q. Did those lines change in that period according to your knowledge?
4 A. Specifically my line did not move.
5 Q. Witness DP4, please don't mark anything on the map now until we
6 tell you to take a certain pen.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And could the map please be placed
8 on the ELMO.
9 Q. Witness DP4, could you use a black marker to indicate first the
10 places where your line was, as you say.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Mr. DP4, this line -- could you please tell us what the streets
15 that the line passes through -- could you explain to us more specifically
16 which area it is.
17 A. This area doesn't go through any streets. It goes from Cenex at
18 Stup to River Dobrinja. So this is the Kasindolska Cesta part. It
19 crosses the highway, the main road, through the florists. Then it goes
20 along the edge of the barracks all the way to the top of the barracks,
21 then goes to a part of the Stupsko hill up to the institute for the blind
22 in Nedzarici. Specifically I was -- and I will put a point here.
23 Q. Just one moment, please.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into
25 closed session, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into closed session.
2 [Closed session]
10 [Open session]
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness DP4, when you drew this line, you said that it did not
13 pass through any street. Can you please tell us, was it parallel to any
15 A. With the street Aleja Bosne Srebrene that is the name of the
16 street now, but it was formerly the Branka Bujica street.
17 Q. Can you tell us that the street Aleja Branka Bujica from September
18 1992 until 1993 and August 1994 was that street open and could people pass
20 A. It was on our territory but it was shot at every day from the
21 high-rise buildings around us, so that it was very risky. It was possible
22 only to move through our neighbourhood only at night either on foot or in
24 Q. When you drew this line, could you please tell us according to you
25 how long was the front line that you covered together with your company?
1 A. We covered approximately 2.000 metres or perhaps a little more of
2 the line. I'm not quite sure how much.
3 Q. Can you tell us what was the depth of the area of responsibility
4 of your company, so its depth.
5 A. The area of responsibility in depth was about 200 [as interpreted]
7 Q. Witness DP4, in the beginning you said that your line started from
8 Cenex. Could you please indicate the place where the Cenex facility is,
9 and can you please clarify what Cenex is.
10 A. Cenex are newly built buildings. That's probably why they're not
11 on this map. They are buildings which are currently being used as a
12 wholesale business facility, as shopping outlets.
13 Q. Could you mark that on the map.
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Witness DP4, you made three dots. Could you put a circle around
16 those three dots and tell us what they are and also put the number "1"
17 next to them.
18 A. These are large reinforced concrete buildings which were used as
19 entrenchments by the Muslim army to shoot at our positions.
20 Q. Mr. DP4, could you indicate on this map the places that you
21 personally know were positions of the B and H Army.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Might I suggest that a finer pen
24 is used. We're using up a lot of the map with thick -- thick lines.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps he could do that if -- if the next
1 marking comes up.
2 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness DP4, can you mark on this map the positions that you
5 personally know were positions acted from by the B and H Army.
6 A. Should I circle them?
7 Q. Well, if you know that there were several such places, you can
8 circle and mark it with a "2" and then circle another place and mark it
9 with a "3" and so on.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Witness DP4, what did you mark under number 2?
12 A. It's a private house, a new house owned by a Serb, an abandoned
13 house because of the fighting. We called the term Ikic's house, to
14 describe it.
15 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about any other places?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. You circled and placed the number "3" next to this -- on this
18 location. What is that?
19 A. It's the refrigeration plant, and we were shot at from there by an
20 anti-aircraft gun several times.
21 Q. When you say that the number 3 indicates a refrigeration facility
22 and that you were shot at by an anti-aircraft gun from there, could you
23 please tell us which weapons were used from positions 1 and 2. Did they
24 use weapons and which weapons?
25 A. Mostly infantry weapons, so artillery, hand-held launchers,
2 Q. Witness DP4, before we go on a break, I have one more question:
3 On this map, could you please indicate any other places that you know
4 about in relation to your front line.
5 A. I could indicate many locations. The whole zone in fact was used
6 as a position, since there are high-rise buildings on the Lukavica Road,
7 also at Dobrinja V. And they had the visual possibility to use heavy
8 weapons against buildings. Occasionally they would move these weapons
9 because of their own safety and they would fire at the whole of the
10 neighbourhood according to its depth and width. It's not a large
11 neighbourhood. It's 2 by 2 kilometres. So everything was in the zone of
13 Q. Witness DP4, my learned friend says that it wasn't specific in the
14 transcript. Mostly anti-aircraft guns and cannon?
15 A. Mostly anti-aircraft gun and cannon. I will indicate a few other
17 Q. When you're indicating number 4 and 5 --
18 MR. IERACE: The last comment by my learned colleague, "my
19 learned friend says it wasn't specification in the transcript, mostly
20 anti-aircraft guns and cannon." I don't understand where that's supposed
21 to have been. If it can be clarified.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it it has something to do with
23 the -- perhaps the witness can take his earphones off.
24 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we should first clarify whether the witness
25 understands English.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could -- could you please move them
2 on again.
3 Do you speak or understand some English or French?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know English a little bit, but ...
5 MR. IERACE: Perhaps given the time, Mr. President, we could have
6 the break and the witness --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could have the break. One of the missing
8 words in the transcript was the word "heavy," and I don't know whether it
9 was any more -- but that's where I had the feeling that it might fill in.
10 Perhaps the parties could deal with it during the break.
11 Let me just first -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If we do not --
12 let's not discuss it at this very moment, although the use of the French
13 language could serve.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness
15 does not understand French at any rate, but word pronounces -- the word
16 that I heard --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take off your earphones. If
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin speaks French, you can hear the English translation,
19 Mr. Ierace, but you could not respond speaking English.
20 Let's first listen to what Mr. Piletta-Zanin tells us in French.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the missing word is the
22 word that you pronounced. It's the word that I heard in the language of
23 the witness and it is not written in the transcript. But I believe that I
24 heard him, and I think the witness very quickly also mentioned some other
25 weapons. He talked about a weapon -- I'm not going to say which weapon it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 is, but we know that there are three different calibres of this weapon and
2 we very often have seen in this case we have seen these weapons and these
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] So it is the word "heavy" that does
5 not appear in the transcript. And Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- according to
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness himself used even more specific, more
7 precise words than just "heavy," "heavy weapons." So you may ponder upon
8 this during the break and we will resume at 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue the examination of the witness,
12 I'd like to inform the parties that the Chamber would like to take a bit
13 more time to think about the position of the summaries. And since it
14 doesn't make play a role immediately in the hour to come, we might do that
15 this afternoon.
16 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. DP4, before the break you made three circles and wrote "4,"
19 "5," and "6," and number "7." Can you tell us, but please go slow, what
20 is number 4.
21 A. Number 4 is the pensioner's home.
22 Q. Number 5?
23 A. Oslobodjenje.
24 Q. Number 6?
25 A. Our student hostels.
1 Q. Number 7?
2 A. Number 7 is the building we call Betonara. And if I may, I'd like
3 to add some other positions.
4 Q. Witness DP4, I will ask you a question, if you can tell us. Are
5 you telling us that these are the structures through which the BH Army
7 A. These are structures which the BH Army used to fire on my
8 neighbourhood throughout the war.
9 Q. Can you tell us which type of weapons did the BH Army use from
10 these positions.
11 A. The BH Army used from those structures infantry weapons for nearby
12 targets and anti-aircraft weapons for more distant areas, and from other
13 positions it used mortars of all calibres, anti-aircraft guns, and from
14 the area of Igman they launched -- well, the term that we use in the
15 colloquial, the cassette bombs, or Savs [phoen]. These are mines for the
16 large-scale destruction of soldiers, of troops of major power.
17 Q. Mr. DP4, before you tell us something about the location and
18 positions of the BH Army, can you tell us -- can you tell us on this map,
19 opposite the place where you made a circle, a black one, can you see the
20 faculty of theology, the school of theology?
21 A. Yes, I can see it.
22 Q. Mr. DP4, in whose area of responsibility was the school of
24 A. In the area of responsibility of the Army of Republika Srpska.
25 Q. Witness DP4, in relation to the school of theology and the street
1 Aleja Bosne Srebrene, that is, in relation to your lines, can you tell us
2 where were the front lines of the BH Army.
3 A. Yes, I can.
4 Q. Will you then take the thin black marker -- or, that is, you can
5 use a slightly thicker marker because we are talking about lines.
6 If you can, will you use -- make a dotted line to mark the BH
7 Army's positions.
8 A. [Marks]
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, is that green?
10 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the witness is now using a green pen.
11 Is that correct?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes. It should be
14 JUDGE ORIE: It should even be black, I would say.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That's right.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. DP4, can you remove your elbow so that we can see.
19 Mr. DP4, as said, to make it clear, when the Defence asked you
20 about the school of theology and you said it was in the area of
21 responsibility of the Army of Republika Srpska, can you show where was the
22 separation line in relation to the school of theology.
23 A. I didn't understand your question. Facing a particular segment of
24 the front line or all of them? This here is the school of theology.
25 Q. Yes, Mr. DP4. But in relation to the school of theology, when we
1 face the intersection, this yellow line here, can you tell us, this yellow
2 line below the school of theology, what street is that?
3 A. The yellow line -- the yellow line is the street Magistar Niput
4 [phoen] that is the highway -- the motor way Sarajevo -- airport Sarajevo.
5 Q. And in relation to the Sarajevo airport, can you mark the lines of
6 the Army of Republika Srpska.
7 A. You mean in the direction of the Sarajevo airport?
8 Q. Yes. If you can move the map slightly upwards so that we can see
9 what you are doing.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Mr. DP4, can you tell us, what is it that you are drawing?
12 A. I am drawing the line held by the Army of Republika Srpska in the
13 direction of the airport.
14 Q. Can you next to it also draw the lines held by the BH Army.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Mr. DP4, I made a mistake. You should have drawn it with a dotted
17 line. So could you please just make it bolder with a dotted line.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Mr. DP4, in relation to the line that you marked and said that
20 they were the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska towards the
21 airport, can you tell us whether in that area there were any positions of
22 the BH Army, and what is this area called above, where it says -- where we
23 have these three yellow squares, above? Could you tell us what part of
24 the city is that? Down towards the airport.
25 A. This is the parking lot of the airport. And the locality across
1 it is called Aerodromsko locality, if that is what you meant.
2 Q. Can you make a circle around the locality or Aerodromsko and tell
3 us who controlled it if you know?
4 A. It was controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska, and I'll make
5 circle around it.
6 Q. Mr. DP4, you have now circled the line.
7 A. I made a circle around Aerodromsko locality.
8 Q. Do you know in relation to this line towards which you say is
9 Aerodromsko locality, did the lines shift there and where was the BH
10 Army's front line in relation to what you say is Aerodromsko locality.
11 A. I did it. In the beginning of the war, they shifted slightly but
12 later on not.
13 Q. When you say "the beginning of the war," what period of time are
14 you talking about, if you know?
15 A. 1993, I think.
16 Q. Mr. DP4, in relation to your line -- to your area of
17 responsibility, can you tell us what view did you have of the airport, or
18 rather, towards the airport?
19 A. Concretely, from our front lines the airport -- one could not see
20 the runway. I remember that. Specifically we could not see the runway
21 from our front lines, not further from the barracks and on. We couldn't
22 see that.
23 Q. Can you tell us, the building of the school of theology,
24 1992 - and I'm referring to the period from September 1992 to 10th of
25 August, 1994 - do you know who used that building?
1 A. In the school of theology was the medical service of the Nedzarici
2 Battalion. It was used -- in front of it there were mortars, and it was
3 used to quarter those people from the military medical service. An APC
4 and two civilian vehicles were at the disposal of the medical military
6 Q. Mr. DP4, can you tell us - so we are talking about the same
7 period, September 1992, August 1994 - were members of the United Nations
8 of UNPROFOR present in this area?
9 A. UNPROFOR members were present often at certain points in the
10 locality of Nedzarici. For instance, the checkpoint toward -- shall I
11 circle it so that everybody knows?
12 Q. If you have any knowledge of that, then circle it.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And put a cross inside the circle and write -- circle with the
15 cross is UN. Thank you, Mr. DP4.
16 Are there any other locations that you know were used by UNPROFOR?
17 A. Yes, the old people's home. And they would be there for several
18 days without leaving it.
19 Q. When you say "the old people's home," can you point at it on the
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 JUDGE ORIE: When you are marking, Witness DP4, could you please
23 bend over a little bit less, because we now see the back of your head
24 rather than the markings you make.
25 Please proceed.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, Your Honours.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. DP4, can you mark the place that you say was the old people's
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you say that UNPROFOR was present there and quite often for a
7 while, can you tell us what period of time are you mentioning when you say
8 "often," and how often?
9 A. In their capacity of observers and humanitarian activists, they
10 cooperated very well with the personnel of the old people's home. And
11 from the very beginning of the war until the end, they -- Now, how often?
12 Very often.
13 Q. When you say "very often," can you say in terms of a week or a
15 A. Several times a week. Sometimes for a whole fortnight without
16 ever leaving.
17 Q. Mr. DP4, can you tell us, since you marked for us the front lines
18 of the two sides, can you tell us -- according to you, what was the
19 distance in relation to the -- the lines in relation to your front line?
20 A. Depends. Between 20 and 70 metres.
21 Q. When you marked the places, you ended with the positions from
22 which the BH Army acted. And the last number was number 7. And you said
23 that you also were aware of other places from -- which were the positions
24 from which the BH Army operated.
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Can you point to them on the map?
2 A. Yes, I can. The whole row of tall buildings in our area, from
3 Alipasino and Vojnicko Polje to Dobrinja V, and also -- also from the top
4 of Mojmilo, from the area of the reservoir.
5 Q. Mr. DP4, can you circle the area of the reservoir and write inside
6 the circle "RZ," so that we can know that in the circle which says "R" is
7 the reservoir.
8 A. In the circle below the reservoir on Mojmilo were UNPROFOR troops.
9 And below them there were several trenches. And they had mortars,
10 anti-aircraft machine-gun, and a gun -- I am not sure what was its
12 Q. Mr. DP4, when you marked these places on this map and drew the
13 lines, can you tell us, between 1992 and 1994, in this area which you
14 marked was there any fighting?
15 A. Fighting was a daily occurrence.
16 Q. Mr. DP4, you said that you were issued with a rifle. Can you tell
17 us what weapons did your company have in your area of responsibility?
18 A. The company in my area of responsibility, the infantry company,
19 had infantry weapons. In the beginning they were just ordinary M-48
20 rifles, semi-automatic rifles and diverse other weaponry. Later on, I was
21 issued with an automatic rifle, and the majority too -- we were -- we kept
22 also some of the semi-automatic weapons and some machine-guns, which were
23 pretty outdated, that is, Brownings from 1937 or something, Sarac and such
25 Q. Mr. DP4, in your area, how did you communicate with your superior
1 unit? Did you communicate with them? And if yes, then how did you do
3 A. In the -- at the outset there was no communication at the very
4 outset. However, after the early attacks, when some kind of a defence
5 line was established, from the barracks which we took over when the
6 Yugoslav army pulled out, we brought induction telephones, which are
7 connected together by a wire and which were used as a basic means of
8 communication with the company in our battalion.
9 Q. Can you tell us who commanded your company?
10 A. Bozidar Cvijetic was the commander in the beginning.
11 Q. When you say "in the beginning," can you tell us what time you are
12 talk about?
13 A. The time until the beginning of 1993 -- or mid-1993. I'm not
15 Q. Can you tell us who succeeded him?
16 A. It was a young man nicknamed Gasi, and he was followed by Ljubo
18 Q. Mr. DP4, can you tell us whether there were any professionals in
19 your company? By this, I mean trained officers.
20 A. There were no trained officers in our company.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will
22 take over to make the whole examination more efficient.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. You still have on the
2 ELMO to your right the map which represents that part of Sarajevo. I'd
3 like you to take the pointer to -- pointer, I'm saying.
4 Will you please take up your pointer and show us the area of
5 Nedzarici on the map which is to your right.
6 A. [Indicates]
7 Q. Thank you. Very well.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the
9 witness followed the request and drew roughly the contours of the area
10 around the word "Nedzarici," towards the airport area, and closed the loop
11 by the building called the school of theology.
12 Q. Witness, in this area, in the area of Nedzarici, were there at the
13 time that we are talking about, was there any destruction? And I'm
14 talking about the destruction of buildings, of structures.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it's not clear in my mind which period
16 that is. Perhaps that could be clarified.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are talking
18 about the period that was mentioned a moment ago, that is, September 1992
19 and 1993 and 1994.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please -- could you please answer the
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, buildings were destroyed in
23 Nedzarici, and it happened throughout the period of war.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have already asked that
25 another exhibit be prepared. It is D1761, I believe. But as we are
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 waiting for it, I'll ask you some other questions.
2 Q. What was, witness, the scope of -- the scale of the destruction in
4 A. The scale of destruction was -- well, there was permanent shelling
5 of our area, so that buildings and other structures were gradually
6 damaged; some more, some less. But there was no house which went
7 unscathed, which was not damaged in this -- in one way or the other.
8 Q. To your knowledge, were those military facilities, civilian
9 facilities, civilian residential buildings or both?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And meanwhile, could we have
11 D1761 prepared for me, Exhibit D1761?
12 A. All types of buildings, regardless of whether they were civilian
13 or military.
14 Q. And can you -- how do you explain this destruction, witness, from
15 your point of view, from your experience?
16 A. I suppose they wanted to neutralise a military target or troops
17 deliberately or not. I cannot be the judge of that. Or by mistake they
18 hit both the targets that were aimed or targets that were close by or
19 further away.
20 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace. Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: I would have thought that when my learned colleague
23 asked that question, he had a particular source of information in mind
24 which was admissible. Apparently from the answer, there is not. It's
25 speculative, and in my respectful submission, the answer should be struck
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will continue
4 along in the same vein. I should like to continue in the same vein, to
5 see whether it is speculation or something else, and I believe that
6 exhibit is D1762 and --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first -- yes. I imagine that you'd like
8 to continue, but ...
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour. Your Honours.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
12 continues] ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: Was there any communication that was -- I just heard
14 something which was not translated.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The witness
16 wanted to speak to you. I told him it was not the right time to do so, in
17 order to avoid any interference.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's up for me to decide whether it's
19 the right time for the witness to speak to me.
20 But let me first give an answer to the objection. The question
21 asked for an explanation. Anyone could explain whatever situation whether
22 it's the right explanation or not. Striking out is not usually the one we
23 use. The Chamber is aware of the objection -- yes, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. You may recall that
25 exactly the same issue arose with the same witness: Same question, same
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. IERACE: And on that occasion, the question was -- well, in
4 essence the indication was --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. -- Of course we have -- I must even admit
6 that the Chamber has asked for explanations of situations that might be in
7 need of some explanation as well, just in order to hear what the witness
8 would tell us. And of course it very much depends on the answer very
9 often whether it will assist the Chamber at all. In general, I would say
10 that asking for explanation of situations that might not be within the
11 limits of the personal knowledge of the witness usually do not greatly
12 assist. I would not say that under no circumstances it could exist, but I
13 think both parties would be wise to refrain as much as possible
14 from -- from speculation on the side of the witness.
15 So if you would keep that in mind, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Also, if
16 you, putting the next questions to the witness, you indicated that -- let
17 me just have a look.
18 Yes. I do understand that with your next questions you'll see
19 whether it's speculation or not. If that does not amount to new
20 speculations, of course you are entitled to continue.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. Witness, earlier on you said that according to you it was possible
23 that the damage in all or in part might have been day to a mistake. I'm
24 now going to ask you a number of questions that are closely linked. First
25 of all, you talked about shelling. What weapon was used to shell the
1 position where you were located?
2 A. Most often mortars, but there was also shelling with cluster bombs
3 from Igman. But most -- for the most part it was the mortars.
4 Q. You said that most often they used mine launchers. Do you know if
5 that weapon can -- has a margin of error or not? I'm talking about that
6 specific weapon.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in translation into English we have
9 the term "mine launchers." I'm unclear as to whether that's a mortar or a
10 cluster bomb or something else.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It might be a translation problem. What word did he
12 use in French?
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I didn't follow your French.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Prosecution wonders whether there's any
16 translation problem for --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, for anyone who speaks
18 French properly there is no doubt about it. A "lance-mines" is exactly
19 the same thing as a mortar. It's exactly the same thing. It's a word
20 that means exactly the same thing.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies of the interpreter.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes. Please
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, do I need to repeat my question? Were you disturbed by
1 this interruption? Can you answer the question in?
2 A. In my opinion, mistakes were frequent. Whether while making the
3 calculation or due to some technical problems while shelling.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: The objection, I think, should be made in the absence
7 of the witness although at the time. But essentially, if I can -- if you
8 would prefer the witness stays in the Trial Chamber, perhaps I could
9 intimate the basis of my objection. It's a question of whether the
10 groundwork has been laid for this witness to give this opinion.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. IERACE: I could be more specific.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps better not in the presence of the witness.
14 MR. IERACE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But I
16 notice -- note one thing: Mr. Ierace raises his objection at the worst
17 possible time. I was asked to be as concrete as -- as practical as
18 possible in order to find out what the witness knows.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But just a couple of minutes before the break.
20 Perhaps it's best that we ask the witness to leave the courtroom, that he
21 would come back tomorrow morning at 9.00, and that we discuss the
22 procedural issue during the remaining minutes.
23 Mr. DP4, we're not ready yet. In three minutes we will have a
24 break until tomorrow morning. I expect you to come back in the same
25 courtroom at 9.00. And we'll deal with another issue in just a few
2 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
4 And may I -- may I ask you not to discuss with anyone the content
5 of your testimony in this court. With no one; yes?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you be more specific, as you
9 indicated you could.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this witness has given evidence
11 that --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I gave Mr. Ierace the opportunity to be more
14 specific. But if there's any procedural issue you would like to raise, do
15 you want private session or -- is it anything like that?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, no. Not at all. I'd
17 like to remind you that I'm sentenced to total silence when it comes to
18 translation. I need about one minute at the end of the hearing for that.
19 And the time has come for me to submit these mistakes. But I think I
20 should be allowed to do it, because there are important facts I should
21 like to point out. But time is running out for me to be able to do that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll give you one minute as requested. Please
23 proceed, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: The witness has so far given evidence that during the
25 conflict he was armed with an M-48 and later received an automatic rifle.
1 At no stage has he said that he has any experience or training in the use
2 of mortars. I don't know where this line of questioning is going. It
3 ultimately seems to be relevant to whether this witness has a -- an
4 opinion which is based in -- in direct observation -- an opinion on the
5 issue of whether damage caused in Nedzarici by ABiH forces was a mistake.
6 Mr. President, the difference between the -- Your Honours asking
7 the witness a question, as opposed to the Defence asking their witness a
8 question, is that one assumes that the Defence knows what the answer will
9 be. Otherwise, why would they have called the witness? It is not an
10 unreasonable expectation that Mr. Piletta-Zanin has some foreknowledge of
11 what the witness will say and what the basis is. And if it is
12 speculative, then that should be indicated. But this question is without
13 proper foundation. This is a man who shot rifles.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, apart from responding to what
15 Mr. Ierace said, could you also explain to the Chamber what would be the
16 factual basis of the knowledge of this witness on whether hits were --
17 errors or intended damage done to specific buildings. Please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very quickly. First of all,
19 I'm only following in the footsteps of the Prosecution. The Prosecution
20 tried to prove that people in Sarajevo -- anyone in Sarajevo was in a
21 position to recognise the sound of heavy artillery weapons, of guns, and
22 was in a position to tell where the fire was coming from. And if anyone
23 on the street is able to gain that sort of knowledge, then that applies
24 even more so to professional military men than to people who were on the
25 spot for three years. In other words, soldiers talk to each other. They
1 acquire additional knowledge about a specific weapon, even if they
2 themselves do not perform these fires. That's the first point.
3 The second point is that this witness, as anyone from Nedzarici,
4 knows the area perfectly well. He's in a position to say: "Here there
5 was a bunker, there a number of private houses were hit. And it is
6 possible to think that it was a fire targeted at our troops and that there
7 was a mistake in the fire. It went too far north, too far south,"
9 Furthermore, the witness will be in a position to tell us about
10 the scope of the damage. And if he tells us, as I think he will do, that
11 the -- all the neighbourhood was the target of massive destruction, there
12 are two possibilities: Either there was a plan to totally destroy
13 Nedzarici -- and I've never heard about it so far -- or there were a
14 number of involuntary mistakes due to the type of weaponry used.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did the witness make the distinction?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're talking about the
17 difference between a campaign -- a possible campaign aimed at destroying
18 Nedzarici -- oh, you're talking about that particular point. Well, if,
19 like anyone, he never heard that the -- that international justice tried
20 to find out whether there was a plan to destroy Nedzarici, then he might
21 have come to the conclusion that this damage was due to mistakes because
22 of the layout of the -- of the neighbourhood, very narrow streets, could
23 lead us to that conclusion.
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... It could not
25 have been else that it would have been errors, because no one ever talked
1 about anything else. And well, my question is: Where here speculation
2 starts and what kind of inferences you are asking from the witness,
3 because your explanation of what you expect from the witness, it seem that
4 is there are at least a lot of inferences rather than observation of
5 facts. I mean, I do understand the first part where you say, "Well, you
6 can ask the witness whether every second or every third or all the houses
7 were damaged and whether it was all done at the same time or that if you
8 have a military barracks, whether all surrounding houses would be hit,"
9 but that -- that are all matters of fact. I have some hesitancies as far
10 as speculation comes in, but perhaps the Judges should take the time to
11 consider this and to give you an answer together with the other -- the
12 answer to the other question raised before.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just want to add something.
16 The position of the Prosecution is -- and it's not a secret, because we
17 are trying to find agreements on that -- is that in some neighbourhoods of
18 Sarajevo, damage indicates that there was a campaign. I believe that the
19 Defence is in -- has the right to prove that there were damages in other
20 areas held by Serb forces without any prima facie evidence of campaign.
21 And I believe that the Defence is perfectly entitled to do so. We are not
22 talking here about speculations or presumptions or whatever. If there
23 were -- if these damages happened and if they were done by Muslim forces,
24 then the witness can tell us about them in order to be able to make the
25 necessary comparisons. If we are not allowed to do that, it would be
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 unfair to us.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your position.
3 You needed one more minute for translation issues,
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I need 30
6 seconds. I've lost the screen. Off the cuff here -- I've lost the
8 I have three things to say: Page 62, it's not Nedzarici that came
9 under attack. It's -- but was under attack. I'm talking about the French
10 translation, page 76, line 15. The witness said that the lines changed.
11 And in French he said they slightly changed.
12 And then page 71, when the witness defined the depth of the
13 confrontation lines, he said that it was about 100 metres and not 200
14 metres like in the English transcript. He said it was a few hundred
15 metres. And that's -- that is in line with other witness statements we've
16 had in the past.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's in conformity. It's not a translation
18 issue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So that's a comment, and I take note of your
19 correction of the translation, and I am certain that proper care will be
20 taken to check the corrections you've suggested.
21 At 9.00 we'll adjourn, until then. And I thank again for the
22 patience, those who technically support us and the interpreters.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
24 at 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
25 the 22nd day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.