Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14165

1 Tuesday, 22 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-98-29-T,

9 the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Before we continue the

11 examination of Witness DP4, there are two pending issues on which the

12 parties asked a decision of the Chamber. First there is the issue

13 whether the summaries provided by Defence are of sufficient precision.

14 In general terms, the summaries are precise enough. That means if, for

15 example, it stated in the summary that the witness will testify about the

16 confrontation lines where he was at, it needs not further specification

17 as to say exactly near to his position, the confrontation lines were on

18 these and these streets or these and these buildings.

19 So in general terms the summaries are specific enough. The

20 second issue is that we, the Chamber and the Prosecution has not been

21 provided with all the, I would say, extended summaries, because the

22 initial summaries were insufficient, and, therefore, we received some six,

23 seven, or eight extended summaries. And when I said that the summaries

24 were specific enough, I was talking about these extended summaries, but

25 they are available only in respect of a small number of witnesses. And as

Page 14166

1 the Chamber indicated before, they have to be provided at a very short

2 notice for all the witnesses that will be called.

3 If the Prosecution feels that in a specific -- on a specific

4 issue the summary is not precise enough, the first thing the Prosecution

5 would have to do is to ask for further details to the Defence. And if

6 this would not solve the problem, the Prosecution may address the

7 Chamber. That is also one of the reasons why the Defence really has to

8 provide these summaries soon now so that the Prosecution, while preparing

9 its cross-examination, can find out whether it contains, in the view of

10 the Prosecution, sufficient information. If not, that they can ask for

11 additional information to the Defence, and if this is not provided, the

12 Prosecution can address the Chamber. The Chamber can decide on whether

13 further more specific information should be contained in the summary.

14 Finally, I said before that in general terms the summaries were

15 specific enough. Where the summaries refer to specific incidents,

16 especially the scheduled incidents, and where the summaries say that the

17 witness will testify on the relevant facts related to that incident,

18 there it is not clear what these relevant facts are. Sometimes the words

19 used say on the basis of the foregoing, and then we have some general

20 information. This information is relevant for specific sniping

21 incidents. The Chamber understands this as to mean that this general

22 information might be of relevance for assessing what happened at specific

23 incidents. Sometimes the words are used that the witness will testify on

24 relevant facts in relation to certain incidents. There it has to be

25 clear what these facts are. Let me just try to give you an example.

Page 14167

1 If, for example, the Defence expects the witness to testify on

2 the line of view from certain positions to the place where someone was

3 hit by a bullet, then it should be clear that that is -- that these are

4 the facts. It could be a different thing. It could, for example, be

5 that a relevant fact might be that one of the incidents that the Defence

6 has spotted someone who, by accident, fired a weapon. That is a totally

7 different but might be relevant fact or an investigation has shown that

8 no shots were fired from the positions where the Prosecution says that

9 from that position a fire came and the investigation has shown that there

10 was no one at this position during three days. That is -- so it should

11 be clear what kind of relevant facts the witness will testify about in

12 relation to specific incidents.

13 That is as far as the summaries is concerned. Then the second

14 issue we dealt with yesterday was about questions inviting a witness to

15 speculate on certain aspects. In cases like these, one cannot always

16 avoid to ask a witness to draw conclusions within his specific knowledge

17 based on his specific experience. But it should be clear that first this

18 knowledge has to be established before a witness can be invited to draw

19 whatever conclusion or to tell us what on the basis of his experience

20 could have been the case. So, therefore the knowledge of the witness

21 first has to be established. And second, it should be perfectly clear on

22 the basis of what experience and on the basis of what facts the witness

23 comes to certain conclusions.

24 For example, if a witness would be asked to tell us whether

25 damage was done intentionally or by firing errors, it should be first

Page 14168

1 established before you can ask such a question to a witness what he knows

2 about specific weaponry, what he knows about the margin of error, what

3 actually he observed that caused him to believe that it was either an

4 error or specifically not an error. So we first need to establish

5 experience, knowledge, facts, and only then we might come to whatever

6 conclusions. Otherwise, such conclusions as we all know that witnesses

7 are mainly witnesses of facts, but sometimes on the basis of their

8 experience within a limited area they could draw some conclusions. We

9 should avoid that it becomes mere speculations because speculation does

10 not assist the Chamber in making the determinations it will have to make.

11 These are the two issues that were still pending. And,

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are on your feet. I know that the witness is

13 standby waiting outside. So if there is any observation you have to make

14 at this moment, please --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very briefly. Your Honour,

16 thank you, first of all. And regarding this issue, the witness issue. I

17 do not think that Mr. Ierace will contradict me because he received two

18 letters that I sent last night. But unfortunately for some -- because of

19 the time constraint, it is impossible for us to furnish this extended

20 summary for all the witnesses. What we propose to do is that we

21 submitted our witness to two grids of questioning. First of all,

22 Ms. Pilipovic is -- was asking these questions and secondly, there was a

23 cross -- criss-crossed questioning and so we asked some questions of that

24 saw it last night and around 11 p.m. I believe, we made sure to send to

25 the Prosecution what we had -- we simply discovered it was a letter

Page 14169

1 representing a supplementary complementary letter. I do not believe that

2 Mr. Ierace can say something against it. So this is what we decided to

3 do. That was one observation.

4 And secondly, regarding your decision, we thank you for your

5 decision, but the Defence would like to underline the following: Is that

6 during the trial during the prosecution case, they often asked witnesses

7 if they witnessed some firing and if they were present during some random

8 shelling. We have seen that very often these witnesses did not know

9 where these places were situated --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course, the Chamber has taken

11 into consideration what happened during the Prosecution case. It is not

12 at this moment in time to comment specifically. If there are any further

13 submissions to be made in this respect, it can be done at a later stage.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber has noticed that the Defence

16 indicates that it cannot provide the more extended summaries for all of

17 the witnesses. The Chamber will consider, because there was, I think, an

18 oral order that it had to be done on short notice, and I think it would

19 have been appropriate to inform the Chamber, but perhaps this is the

20 information the Defence now gives the Chamber, that they cannot do it.

21 We will consider whether the existing order will be replaced or mitigated

22 or changed after the Prosecution has been in the position to give its

23 view on that.

24 I would now like to -- unless there is something that should be

25 dealt with at this very moment before the witness comes in. So that it

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Page 14171

1 is relevant for this witness --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I must

3 say that sometimes we can discover certain things, and that is why I am

4 saying, we at times discover very important facts. We have discovered

5 for instance, last night and I can say it now that this very famous tall

6 building that we were talking about, which was situated in Dobrinja was

7 not usable to shoot from. We discovered this only a few hours ago. The

8 second examination that we submitted our witness to reveal this, and we

9 shall apply it. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The disclosure of statements and the summaries of

11 witness statements is intended to prevent trial by ambush. The Chamber

12 is aware that sometimes at a later stage surprises come up, but we have

13 to consider whether it is acceptable that new facts come up always or

14 frequently the day before the examination of the witness but we will have

15 to give this further consideration. It is also a matter of case

16 preparation.

17 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

18 courtroom.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ORIE: If the Defence is ready to continue the examination,

21 they may do so. And may I remind you, Mr. DP4, that you are still bound

22 by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS DP4 [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 14172

1 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

2 Q. [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, good morning, once again?

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Could you come close to the microphones. I have a feeling that

5 we cannot hear you very well. Thank you. Very well.

6 Witness, I would be -- I would appreciate it very much if you

7 would be able to answer shortly. If you could just say yes or no, that

8 would help us greatly.

9 A. Very well.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 Witness, have you personally while you were a soldier, have you

12 personally seen shelling? Yes or no.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Have you personally witnessed shellings that took place on

15 Nedzarici, in that area?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, regarding your own experience, could

18 you please tell this Chamber if you can if those shellings were frequent,

19 rare, numerous, or something else? What can you tell us? How can you

20 describe those shellings, according to your own experience?

21 A. They were numerous.

22 Q. Very well. Now, these shellings, sir, were they targeting some

23 very precise military or -- pardon -- objectives or were they directed

24 towards all the Nedzarici neighbourhood, according to your own experience,

25 of course?

Page 14173

1 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. That is not something that

2 the witness could possibly respond to on the basis of his personal

3 knowledge. I say that given the evidence in relation to this witness so

4 far.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think this should not be too much of a -- Mr. DP4,

6 may I ask you the following? Did you observe that specific buildings

7 were more frequently hit or were hit at all while others were not, or

8 while observing the shelling, could you see no distinction in buildings

9 being hit or not being hit?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the buildings that

11 were hit were the buildings on a larger area. So it is not the same

12 buildings on many occasions but rather various buildings. It is a very

13 small neighbourhood, and it is not difficult to see where the shell fell

14 if it is not right next to you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the question was not whether the was

16 difficult to see but for example, if I say were shops were hit than

17 houses or were your headquarters of the military hit more shops or tall

18 buildings more than small buildings? Or was there any -- could you make

19 any -- could you see any difference in the type of buildings that were

20 hit or the frequency with which some constructions were hit?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was not able to see a

22 difference. And if I may I will explain, if you allow me to do so.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I shall give you an example. For

25 instance, there was a building called Samo Stan and it's actually the

Page 14174

1 convent. It is a building of a few floors. I cannot say that it's a very

2 tall building, but it consists of a few floors. And the houses that are

3 situated around this convent were hit more often than the convent itself.

4 So I cannot say they were targeting those houses or were they maybe

5 targeting the convent but they were not able so they hit the houses.

6 But I will give you a few examples. My house for instance was hit

7 and in front of the house two shells had fell. On the first time a mother

8 died. She was the victim of this incident. And on the second occasion my

9 aunt was wounded. Now, the house right next to my house -- I don't want

10 to give you any names unless we go perhaps in closed session -- right, so

11 the house right next to mine was hit by a Howitzer shell. And just -- it

12 was like an old villa. It was situated across the street from the

13 convent, and it was hit on a few occasions by mortars. The people who

14 used to live there had gone to live somewhere else and they also owned a

15 house not far from that one.

16 So there were no casualties. That house did not -- was not used

17 for military installation or anything like that. Now the house that was

18 on the same side, on the same side as the convent on the street Aleja

19 Bosne Srebrene was hit as well. It was a mortar hit. And the garden

20 that was situated behind the house was also hit by a very heavy weaponry

21 which had a very great destruction power. And those shells were thrown

22 from the bottom, from the foot of the Mount Igman in the direction of

23 Hrasnica. This is why I am telling you that I cannot tell you what they

24 wished to do, what the Muslim forces tried to target but these were the

25 houses and these were the targets that were targeted.

Page 14175

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I stop you there --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the intersection was also hit.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, your answer was clear. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as

4 you might have noticed, I asked for facts. The witness explained what he

5 has seen. Please proceed and keep in mind the answer of the witness.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 Q. Witness just one observation. In the transcript we could read

8 that a mother died. It was your mother who died, if I am not mistaken?

9 Can you please be more precise?

10 A. Yes, it was my mother. She died.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 Now, let's pursue this line of questioning, Witness. During your

13 war experience, were you ever able to see the weapon called a mortar?

14 Have you ever seen a mortar?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Did you have the opportunity to discuss

17 with your soldiers this type of weapon?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you therefore, know from your personal experience

20 if this type of weapon implies the possibility of error when it is used?

21 I mean, error in targeting?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again, no proper basis has been

24 established to ask that question. To save time, could I simply make this

25 observation: I understand that in due course the Defence will be calling

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Page 14177

1 an expert and that is the way to deal with this issue.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I be

3 heard?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This witness has quoted a

6 number of examples of destruction which took place and knew something

7 that he call as convent, a monastery --

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... in the presence

9 of the witness. I will put a few questions to the witness.

10 Mr. DP4 do you have specific technical knowledge on the weapons

11 just mentioned to you, mortars?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not an expert. All I can say

13 is what I either saw or went through. If you want to mean -- when our

14 side fired shots we were warned to get away, if possible, in case to

15 avoid casualties on our side when firing. So they were afraid of errors,

16 but I can't say.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I would like you to respond to my questions and

18 these will be very specific questions. Do you have any experience in

19 firing mortars?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Were you ever given theoretical training in the use

22 of mortars?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any specific knowledge of the margin of

25 errors when firing mortars?

Page 14178

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But I can give you examples of

2 errors that I know about, errors committed -- made by artillery weapons.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you give me one example, I will then see whether

4 there are any additional questions to be put to you in respect of that

5 example.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will quote to you the example,

7 which, to my mind, was not deliberate because it happened to the French

8 Battalion during rapid intervention. On that occasion an artillery

9 weapon, an artillery projectile hit in front of -- hit the Zica hospital.

10 And in this vicinity there are neither military nor even civilian

11 structures. Since the French Battalion certainly did not intend to do

12 it, I guess it was a calculation error or something.

13 JUDGE ORIE: This is a conclusion. You were not present when

14 the -- this projectile hit in front of the hospital? Is this what you

15 heard, what other people told you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on that occasion, two

17 men, two people were killed, Mr. And Mrs. Knezevic. I know their son,

18 Zeljko Knezevic who for a while was deployed in Nedzarici. I attended

19 their funeral.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. I do understand that you knew

21 persons that were victims of this mortar firing. Is that correct?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that since the French Battalion

24 certainly would not have targeted a hospital, it must have been a firing

25 error. Do you know what the French hospital -- the French Battalion

Page 14179

1 targeted when they fired the shell that finally landed near the hospital?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is assumed that the French

3 Battalion --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. I would like to ask you whether

5 you know personally or not, I mean, what you heard from other people or

6 what can be assumed is a different matter. Do you have --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not have such knowledge,

8 not any positive knowledge.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any specific experience which

10 would allow you to make a distinction between shells that landed as a

11 result of a firing error or shells that landed specifically on the spot

12 targeted by those who fired that shell?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that some shells fired from

14 our weapons hit our targets, and I think that those must have been firing

15 errors.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see whether I understand you well. You

17 say that caused by firing errors your own shells did hit targets in an

18 area controlled by your own armed forces? Is that -- so, by accident you

19 did hit your own positions or people's or objects? Is that how I am to

20 understand your last answer?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: When you gave this answer, is it about mortars?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the most frequently the

24 case, mortars, because they were the most widely used.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand since you have no experience

Page 14180

1 in firing mortars yourself, that this is what you heard from your

2 colleagues, that they hit targets within the territory controlled by your

3 forces?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that from my colleagues who

5 had been barely missed, who could have been killed.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you informed about what was targeted and

7 what was hit or were you just informed that your own positions were hit?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we were not informed about what

9 the actual target was.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed and keep in mind

11 the -- to what extent the witness has knowledge and experience on which

12 he could draw any inferences.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course, Mr. President.

14 But the Defence takes the liberty of noting for the transcript that one

15 of the questions that you asked seemed practically impossible to answer.

16 It is the question of -- which had to do about the difference between

17 firing error and targeting -- and hitting a particular target. Because

18 it is impossible to answer such a question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please indicate to what

20 question you are referring.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I have to look it

22 up, I have to look at it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is it page 13, line 9 or 8?

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will check it,

25 Mr. President. Yes, it is the question on page 13, line 8.

Page 14181

1 JUDGE ORIE: I asked the witness about experience not about

2 distinction to be made. I asked him whether he had specific experience

3 that would allow him. Please proceed. And --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.

5 Q. Witness, in one of your answers that you gave now you said that

6 when there was firing you would be warned to leave certain areas, that is

7 what you said. Why were you told to leave certain areas? Will you tell

8 us that please.

9 A. I suppose so as to best take care of the lives of our men in the

10 area of a possible error. I guess that would be it.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you ever hear in Sarajevo from the other

12 side of the line about the use of sirens that is, of -- sounding the

13 alert?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like to go back to the destruction

16 in Nedzarici. Can you tell us, if you can of course, how many houses

17 approximately remained intact in Nedzarici?

18 MR. IERACE: I object Mr. President. Perhaps my learned

19 colleague could indicate by which time, having regard to the indictment

20 period.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this objection

22 needs to be denied because we know well that this witness was there

23 throughout the war. And I am asking him a question from September 1992

24 until the end of the war, and, therefore, we are talking about the years

25 that we know very well. So there is absolutely no need for this

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Page 14183

1 objection because it is only wasting the time that the Defence has.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied. The question was:

3 "How many houses remained intact?" And that is the situation, I would

4 say, at the end of your observation whether there were still -- how many

5 houses were still there that were not -- that remained intact, were not

6 damaged? You may answer the question.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The area that we are talking about

8 is very small, and it is surrounded by tall buildings. So all the

9 buildings were hit by different weapons. There were no houses that had

10 not been hit at least from infantry weapons, if nothing else.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And as for mortar hits or other types of shells, projectiles of

13 this kind?

14 A. The same applies.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness. Let us try to be precise. In time you were

16 in this war from the beginning. This destruction, did it happen mostly,

17 for instance towards the end of 1994 that is towards the end of autumn,

18 in autumn, or did it happen at some other time, at the beginning of the

19 war or some halfway through the war? I don't know. I am talking about

20 the main -- the chief destruction.

21 A. The chief destruction approximately took place between the end

22 and mid-1992 or end of 1992 until the end of the war. So it was only at

23 the very beginning of the war that they mostly applied infantry attacks.

24 But later on they changed their method.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, we shall now move on to a different set of

Page 14184

1 questions. Did you receive any instructions concerning the objects that

2 you could target or specifically did your company receive -- or perhaps

3 it didn't, I do not know -- receive any instructions concerning the types

4 of targets that you were right in taking on? Please answer with yes or

5 no.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. And what were the instructions that you received?

8 A. The instructions were: Return the fire, take care not to target

9 civilians, women, children.

10 Q. You stopped here. You told us not to target civilians, women, and

11 children. By "civilians," do you also include the elderly amongst these

12 civilians?

13 A. All the unarmed and un-uniformed individuals.

14 Q. Thank you very much. And were those instructions sent to you

15 through the channel -- chain of command?

16 A. We received the instructions from the company commander.

17 Q. Thank you. I am re-reading the transcript. I believe that you

18 said, to make it quite specific that you received them from the company

19 command. Is that correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. But that is not the same thing as the "command chain." Do you

22 know where did your company command receive its instructions from?

23 A. The company command received its instructions from the battalion

24 command, and they were receiving their instructions from the brigade

25 command. I am not familiar with the chain of command further up.

Page 14185

1 Q. Thank you, Witness.

2 Witness, I would like you now to be shown a map which has the

3 number, it is the map of the incident number 23.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And we have copied this and

5 we would like to give these copies -- to distribute these copies. Excuse

6 me just a moment.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is a set which was

9 supplied -- which was shown to a witness who was a Corps Commander. And

10 whilst this document is being distributed --

11 Q. Witness, can you confirm that what you just called "the convent"

12 or the monastery, at times it's the same building, is the building which

13 is at times called the School of Theology.

14 A. Yes, that is one and the same building.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, you have before you -- you have before you a

16 map. Can you -- you read this map?

17 A. I can, yes.

18 Q. Witness, can you tell us, according to you, which is -- what is

19 the building which is next to number 75?

20 A. It is the School of Theology.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps the

23 usher could help us. [In English] On the ELMO. Would you please put it

24 on the ELMO. Okay.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May it then be put on the ELMO.

Page 14186

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There. Thank you. For the

2 transcript this is Exhibit P3728, but we have produced a copy, of course.

3 Q. Witness, do you see a point to the -- on the right-hand side of

4 the map towards 23, with a kind of an arrow pointing at 23?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. You have this red triangle before you and it literally represents

7 the firing trajectory, that is the theoretical possibility of a shot

8 coming from the School of Theology and being fired at point 23. Having

9 said that, and in view of your knowledge of the area was it technically

10 possible, according to your experience to effect one shot from point

11 indicated towards number 75, targeting number 23 and why?

12 A. If you have infantry weapons in mind --

13 Q. I have in mind a shot from so-called light weapons, as opposed to

14 heavy weaponry.

15 A. The distance between these two points under the most ideal

16 conditions is simply too big to be -- to use infantry weapons and to have

17 this point hit by -- from an infantry weapon.

18 Q. Do you know if along the trajectory ideal trajectory, that is a

19 hypothetical trajectory which is represented by this red triangle, are

20 there any topographic elements or structures which would be an obstacle

21 to a direct hit from a light weapon?

22 A. There are structures which obstruct the view. There are

23 buildings, there are houses, private houses, and taller buildings which

24 obstruct the view. Besides, both parties to the conflict throughout the

25 war put up screens made of vehicles, carpets, tin plate and so on, to

Page 14187

1 protect their respective side from being seen or hit by the other side.

2 Q. Witness, inside the red triangle and since the map does not

3 provide that information, would there be any buildings, any structures,

4 that is, obstacles obstructing the direct view?

5 A. Yes, there are such buildings.

6 Q. Very well. Witness, did you yourself go to this place which is

7 called 75, on the map, that is to the school?

8 A. Yes, before the war.

9 Q. And during the war, at whatever time, did you have from this

10 school, could you see directly the point number 23 indicated on the map,

11 if you remember? Could you see it?

12 A. I did come to the convent on a couple of occasions, mostly

13 because of our medical corps which was on the ground floor. It was not

14 safe to go to upper floors. They had large windows. The convent was hit

15 by a Howitzer shell and two floors were also pierced vertically. So I

16 did go there, but I did not go to upper -- to the upper floors. I would

17 only be on the ground floor.

18 Q. Very well. But then from the ground floor could you see 23, the

19 point 23, could you see it?

20 A. No, I couldn't.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, we have seen that at times questions,

22 hypothetical questions can be asked, so my question is as follows: Had

23 you been on the first floor? I am talking about a possibility. Would

24 you have been able to see point 23? Could you answer that question?

25 A. No.

Page 14188

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Page 14189

1 Q. What does this mean, that you cannot answer or that you wouldn't

2 have been able to see it?

3 A. I wouldn't have been able to see that place.

4 Q. Very well. And from an upper floor, what would have been your

5 answer? I think that the building has two upper floors. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. I am not quite sure. But I do not think you could see it from

8 the second floor.

9 Q. Very well. So your answer is that, according to your experience,

10 you think that one would not be able to see it from upper floors? Is

11 that it?

12 MR. IERACE: I object. Perhaps for the same reason,

13 Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is -- you are asking for speculation,

15 unless there are specific reasons why the witness would have the knowledge

16 or experience. So let me just ask you: What made you believe that you

17 could not see from the first or from the second floor point number 23?

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise for interrupting you with

19 the question. But in fact the witness's answer was equivocal as to the

20 second floor.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he said --

22 MR. IERACE: He said he did not think --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said that you did not think you could see

24 it. So you were -- certainly, as far as the second floor was concerned,

25 uncertain. Could you explain this on the basis of what you would draw

Page 14190

1 these conclusions, because these are conclusions.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will show you what I

3 am talking about, to be on the safe side. The location of the School of

4 Theology is lower than the rest of Nedzarici, that is, you go uphill

5 towards Mojmilo and Alipasino Polje. Private houses which you can find

6 here, around here, are mostly two-storey buildings. So if we look from

7 the same altitude, from the position of the convent, that the School of

8 Theology, any of the houses around it is at the same level, plus a roof.

9 So it is yet another storey then. So they are about the same height, and

10 therefore it screens off the view, it obstructs the view, you cannot look

11 over them, probably from the third floor. But I cannot say about the

12 third floor, but from the second floor, I am quite positive, because it is

13 only logical.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the basics of logics, did you ever

15 specifically measure the height of point 23?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I am not talking about houses. That would be the

18 next question. Do you know exactly what is the elevation level of point

19 23?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Point number 23, that point is for

21 sure higher than the Faculty of Theology. I grew up in this area, and I

22 know that area very well. It is possible to prove this in many different

23 ways. You can, for sure, know if I am lying. There is some maps. You

24 also have data that you can examine.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You say that point 23 is higher. Is it considerably

Page 14191

1 higher than the -- where the ground where the School of Theology is?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't really tell you if it

3 was considerably higher. But with respect to the Faculty of Theology,

4 when we look at here, the level becomes slightly inclined. So it goes

5 slightly higher up. And as soon as you get closer to Mojmilo because of

6 the hill, the inclination is greater. So it is close to the reservoir

7 points which we discussed earlier.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, I would like you to go back to point 75. Could you

11 please point the pointer on number 75 on the map.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. No, leave the pointer on the dot, please, on the same spot.

14 Thank you.

15 Witness, with regards to this area that you are indicating right

16 now, that is to say right or to the right of the Faculty of Theology,

17 were there any buildings, any structures, and if so, at what distance

18 with respect to the facade of the Faculty of Theology.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question as translated refers to

20 buildings to the right of the Faculty of Theology. And the pointer is,

21 as I understand it, to the left. Perhaps I am mistaken. Perhaps that

22 might be clarified if that is to the left or the right that

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin wants his answer to relate to.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like

25 this objection to be rejected. We know very well -- we all know very

Page 14192

1 well what is right and what is left. I asked the witness to stay on

2 number 75. The right-hand side corresponds to west -- east -- sorry. I

3 would have said that. But I think that this question is so clear. And I

4 cannot accept such an objection.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The question is not clear. What is right and left

6 always depends on the direction of view. So would you please clarify the

7 issue.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Q. To the east, please. Witness, have you heard my question?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. My question was with respect to the east of the buildings, so you

12 are showing to us now an area, you are using the pointer to show us an

13 area. Were there any buildings in that area, and if so, what was the

14 difference -- the distance of these buildings with regards to the facade

15 of the faculty?

16 A. The convent was here, but right next to the convent there were no

17 bigger buildings or bigger structures or houses. Along the river here,

18 the Dobrinja River, there was an alley of trees here in this area.

19 Q. Were there any other trees in the area that is within the

20 triangle?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you please show us where, with the pointer.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you please do so.

25 A. Right here there was a house. It was the house of the family

Page 14193

1 called Sucur and it was approximately right here. Now, right there, was

2 this line of old trees and here as well.

3 Q. Thank you very much for stopping.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the

5 witness showed us the presence of a house that is situated immediately

6 above a dot to the right of number 75, that is, to the east of 75, and

7 then using the pointer the witness showed us a treeline or tree barrier,

8 if you will, situated right above number 75 and above the dot the black

9 dot previously mentioned.

10 Q. Now, Witness, were there any other constructions --

11 A. May I just add something?

12 Q. Yes, for sure.

13 A. The south side of the convent, I am showing you this area now,

14 was one floor lower. It was just right after the war, because the

15 convent was so damaged, one floor was added after the war. So before the

16 war and during the war, this part here was only composed of three

17 storeys. So it was only a three storey-building at that time.

18 A. Witness, would you please be a little bit clearer, if you may.

19 What is the exact part of the convent which was one floor lower? Could

20 you tell us what it is? Could you show us? Could you show us clearly on

21 this map.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Very well. Thank you.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness just showed the

25 facade situated to the south-west, that is to say the facade representing

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Page 14195

1 the side if we -- which has a direct view on the area or the

2 neighbourhood called the airport neighbourhood. Thank you very much.

3 Q. Witness, could we now talk about something else please.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think

5 that it is necessary to produce this map because it was already tendered

6 and I think that we were clear enough for the transcript. But I see Mr.

7 Ierace on his feet.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I may be mistaken, but the

9 description given by my learned colleague as to the southern wall of the

10 convent, I don't know that that reflects the evidence. In particular,

11 the words "which has a direct view on the area of the neighbourhood

12 called the airport neighbourhood." I am not sure if the witness has said

13 that wall had such a view.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may, we

16 were talking theoretically. This is a view, if we look at the map, but

17 if you protect the wall, the facade, what is right in front of this wall

18 or the facade is the airport neighbourhood.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps you say that "on the map this

20 wall faces the area," which is a different thing whether you had a view or

21 not. But I do understand that this is a mistake and the precision has

22 been corrected now.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr.

25 Piletta-Zanin this witness has been scheduled for two hours. Yesterday

Page 14196

1 you used 65 minutes. The Defence used 65 minutes. Today we used 55

2 minutes. So there is not much time left, I would say. Could you give us

3 an indication of how much time you would still need? And let me just

4 indicate to you that the Chamber has discussed that we will be rather

5 strict on times indicated, especially after the experience of last week.

6 Could you give us an indication how much time you would still need?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Five minutes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Sir, do you know if there were any defence structures such as

11 trenches situated around Nedzarici?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Witness, have you ever seen people working on those trenches?

14 Yes or no.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Witness, when and where have you seen people working on those

17 trenches?

18 A. In the area right across of my position, we called it Sevula

19 Kuca [phoen], Cenex, it was destroyed after the war. Now this structure

20 does not exist any longer. But this is where I would see them dig

21 trenches and make fortifications. However, we know from the Serbs who

22 were either exchanged or who had run across, those were imprisoned Serbs,

23 so we never fired on them. We never opened fire on them.

24 Q. When you say "these people who were digging trenches" you are

25 talking about the people who were digging the trenches, is that it?

Page 14197

1 A. Yes, yes. Those were very risky areas because this -- and this

2 is why they, those captured people were digging.

3 Q. Do you know or had you ever -- have you ever heard that those

4 Serbs were either civilians or soldiers?

5 A. Those were civilians people.

6 MR. IERACE: I object. Mr. President, again, for the third

7 question in a row, the witness is giving information without giving

8 evidence, without a proper basis for that evidence being laid.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please create a factual basis.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, could you please tell this Chamber, what is your

12 personal knowledge of this? How did you come to find this out? How did

13 you know that those were civilians? Could you tell us how did you

14 personally find out these facts?

15 A. Yes, of course, I will explain. People whom we would see dig

16 trenches and make fortifications or fortified positions were people who

17 were not armed and they were wearing civilian clothes. Furthermore

18 people who were either exchanged or who had escaped were always called to

19 go and have some discussions with the authorities in the police station.

20 And they would communicate interesting data that were of interest for us,

21 that is to say they were to tell us where the artillery weapon was

22 deployed. They were able to tell us, for instance, where the army was

23 moving, how they were moving, where they were going. And those people

24 would testify as to what happened to them personally during that time.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, you also told us that consequently you were

Page 14198

1 not firing on these people. Could you please repeat what you told us say?

2 I remember hearing something similar earlier.

3 A. Yes. We would not open fire on them for those same reasons.

4 Q. Witness, with regards to your personal knowledge, do you know if

5 the facts that you just described regarding Nedzarici, do you know if

6 those facts happened somewhere else, those situations happened somewhere

7 else on other parts of the line?

8 MR. IERACE: I object.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. IERACE: So far we have the witness saying that the escapees

11 were debriefed by the police. We don't know how this witness learned that

12 information from the police, whether it was on the media, whether someone

13 told him that, whether the police told him that. And now the witness is

14 being invited to speculate about what might have happened in other areas,

15 again with no proper foundation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you ask the witness --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- something he did not observe himself would you

19 always ask him from whom or by what means he got this information.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. This was my

21 second question. I was just getting to it, Your Honour. Let me ask

22 the first question please. Since Mr. Ierace made an objection, we would

23 like this objection to be denied since he made an objection with regards

24 to my question. And I believe that my question was perfectly admissible.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think, as a matter of fact, that the proper

Page 14199

1 way of questioning would be that you ask the witness whether, and by what

2 means, he obtained any information on what would have happened elsewhere,

3 and then the second question, what was the content of this information.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. But may I just

5 ask my first question, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Your first question was about the content, as far as

7 I can see, and not about the source of knowledge.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. So

9 you give me the permission, therefore.

10 Q. Witness, do you know if what you just told us, that is to say the

11 fact that civilians were working on the trenches, if this happened in

12 other areas along the line, and if you know so, Witness, how did you find

13 this out? How were you made aware of these facts?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin you now combined the two questions.

15 Mr. DP4, did you ever receive knowledge on similar situations

16 elsewhere, and how did you get that information?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found out about this and about

18 other areas because for a very short period of time -- I cannot remember

19 his name exactly -- but if you want me to remember it, I will. There was

20 a man who was a Serb, he was from Hrasnica, and he was doing some forest

21 labour. He was digging a tunnel under the airport tarmac and he didn't

22 stay there very long because he had psychological problems. Now with

23 regards to the information and the people who were debriefed by the

24 police, the escapees who would leave Sarajevo, those informations were

25 communicated to us pending on the area in which those people worked. So

Page 14200

1 it means that the people who were digging trenches around Nedzarici were

2 -- gave statements and then this information would get to the Nedzarici

3 unit through our chain of command. And then the commander of the company

4 would come to tell us the relevant information -- the relevant information

5 communicated to that person through personal knowledge of the person in

6 question who communicated the information.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that the relevant information for the

8 Nedzarici was related to you as a result of the debriefing?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through a personal conversation with

10 that man from Hrasnica and also through statements.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reports. I am sorry.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, do you know the name of the people or the person you

16 mentioned?

17 A. I cannot recall the man in question, the name of the man. I am

18 sorry. But during -- but when I come back, when I go back home, I can

19 try to find him because he is in that area. So I may find his perhaps

20 statement and I could communicate it to this Tribunal.

21 Q. Was there somebody who was with him and can you tell us some

22 other name?

23 A. No, not with regards to the position I held.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I

Page 14201

1 mentioned a few people with you, were there any people with you who would

2 be able to find or to tell us his name and not with him. Thank you.

3 That is all.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to

5 cross-examine the witness?

6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what your first subject would be. If

8 it takes more than five minutes, I suggest that we have a break now. If

9 you have a subject that could be covered in five minutes, please proceed.

10 MR. IERACE: I will proceed, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

13 Q. How many were there in your company?

14 A. In our company there was over 100 men.

15 Q. What equipment, apart from rifles, pistols and machine-guns, did

16 you and your fellow company soldiers have?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to

18 this question because this question implies undoubtedly the following

19 fact: That these soldiers absolutely had other weapons in their

20 position. If the word "if any" was added, it would have been acceptable.

21 To me, it is just the way the question is formulated and this is why I

22 object.

23 MR. IERACE: Indeed in examination it would have been a

24 prerequisite to add those words but not in cross-examination,

25 Mr. President, in my respectful submission.

Page 14202

1 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we discussed

2 before leading questions. And one of the elements that would make a

3 question a leading one would be that the answer is suggested in the

4 question itself. That would make a question a leading one. This

5 certainly is a leading question, but as we also have discussed before,

6 leading questions are not impermissible in the cross-examination where

7 they generally are in chief.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE:

10 Q. What weaponry, apart from small arms up to and including

11 machine-guns, did you and your fellow company soldiers have, and let's

12 say, as of December 1992?

13 A. Other than from what you just mentioned because of course we were

14 an infantry company, let's not forget that, we only had an anti-tank

15 light weaponry. We had hand-held rocket launchers and hand -- that is to

16 say, those cannons against anti-tank cannons.

17 Q. Were there any mortars in your company?

18 A. In my company, no.

19 Q. Having regard to the frontline that you drew yesterday, and for

20 the transcript, for the record, that is on Exhibit D7169, I take it that

21 the former JNA barracks were near your section of the frontline. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were there soldiers outside your company operating at any stage

25 between September 1992 and August 1994 from those former barracks?

Page 14203

1 A. Where my company was situated, so that is in the whole barracks,

2 no other soldiers came there except that at one certain point in time

3 there was a commandment in the upper wing and it was also the kitchen

4 which served food to the soldiers.

5 Q. What was the commandment in the upper wing?

6 A. The command of our company, our battalion.

7 Q. When you drew the frontline yesterday you took it up to, but did

8 not include, the Institute for Blind Children. Is that correct?

9 A. The institute used to belong to our company, yes. So it

10 represented the border. It did belong to our company, yes.

11 MR. IERACE: I notice Mr. Piletta-Zanin is on his feet,

12 Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, what I

15 wanted to say is that my colleague is going to ask questions with regards

16 to what the witness said yesterday. It would be fair to show the witness

17 that he himself annotated so that he can check it and testify with the

18 map.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think in general terms, Mr. Ierace, especially since

20 the witness might not have in his mind specific -- with high precision

21 what he marked on the map yesterday, it would be preferable to do so. The

22 witness has now answered the question. I think we have to have a break

23 anyhow. If you would like to ask further questions on the markings the

24 witness made on the map yesterday, would you please provide him with a

25 map.

Page 14204

1 We will adjourn until 11.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might we start off in

6 private session.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will turn into private session. Or closed

8 session, that is the same in this courtroom.

9 MR. IERACE: Yes. It will only be for about five minutes.

10 [Closed session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

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16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

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5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again. Please proceed.

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. Yesterday, you told us that the first commander of your company

10 was Bozidar Cvijetic and he remained in that position, you think, until

11 mid-1993. Is that correct?

12 A. It is.

13 Q. You said that he was followed by a young man with the nickname

14 Gasi. Do you recall his full name?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. When did he cease to be your company commander?

17 A. He was there for about half a year. I cannot remember exactly

18 because it was a very long time ago. And then until the end our

19 company's commander was Mr. Ljubo Cvijetic, as I have already said.

20 Q. Do I take it, therefore, that Ljubo Cvijetic became your

21 commander from around the end of 1993?

22 A. If my memory serves me well, that is so.

23 Q. Before the break this morning, you said that at one stage there

24 was a commander in the former JNA barracks in Nedzarici, and you went on

25 to say it was the commander of your company, of your battalion. Was it

Page 14209

1 your company commander or your battalion commander or both?

2 A. Be precise. Whom do you have in mind?

3 Q. You told us that in the barracks there was a command post. Is

4 that correct?

5 A. It is. The command post of both battalion and companies, but not

6 one in the same man.

7 Q. Did that command post operate from -- I withdraw that.

8 Was that command post in existence in September of 1992, and if

9 so, for how long after that?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness has just said

13 that there were two command posts. So Mr. Ierace should be more precise

14 and say battalion command, company command.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

17 Q. Did the company command post exist in that position in September

18 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So that's where Bozidar Cvijetic had his command post in that

21 month. Is that correct?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. Did the battalion command post exist there in September 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many battalions were there in the brigade?

Page 14210

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Page 14211

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Was there only the one battalion operating in Nedzarici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So that was the command post for the battalion commander for the

5 whole of Nedzarici in September 1992, correct?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. Who was the battalion commander in September 1992?

8 A. Radivoje Grkovic.

9 Q. And when did he leave that post?

10 A. Towards the end of 1992 or in the beginning of 1993.

11 Q. Who replaced him?

12 A. Then we joined with the airport locality and part of Kasindolska

13 in one and we became one battalion. And Svetozar Guzina nicknamed Seso

14 then succeeded him as commander in that whole area?

15 Q. When did that happen?

16 A. Early 1993. I can't be more precise.

17 Q. Who was the commander of that new one battalion?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I know that things are going

20 through at night, but in case our possible additional -- cross-examination

21 could we have the name of the commander clearly. We want to know who is

22 this about. I am talking about line 41 -- page 41, line 22.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slowly repeat the name of the

24 commander who came in early 1993 on -- of which you said his nickname was

25 I think Seso.

Page 14212

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Svetozar Guzina.

2 MR. IERACE:

3 Q. To be clear on that, was he the commander of that new single

4 combined battalion?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were his headquarters also in the barracks?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Where were his headquarters?

9 A. At the beginning of Kasindolska Street.

10 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown map D1764.

11 Q. On the map, would you please point to the position of those

12 headquarters with a --

13 MR. IERACE: I think it is a blue pen, Mr. President?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Blue for the Prosecution, black for the Defence.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You told me to point, not to draw?

16 MR. IERACE:

17 Q. No, no, that is correct. But would you now please take a fine

18 blue point pen, fine blue pen and place a cross at the position of those

19 headquarters.

20 A. [Marks]

21 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the ELMO can pan back so we can see the

22 sight.

23 Q. All right. Would you please place the initials "HY" alongside

24 that cross.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 14213

1 Q. All right. Now, just to the right of the headquarters we see a

2 yellow road running up and down the screen. What was the name of that

3 road in 1992? It passes through the number one that you wrote yesterday.

4 A. This is the highway from the airport to Sarajevo.

5 Q. All right. Now, did the headquarters stay in that position until

6 at least August 1994?

7 A. The headquarters remained in that place until the end of the war.

8 Q. And for what period of time did that commander stay in that

9 position?

10 A. Until the end of the war, too.

11 Q. All right. Now, between September 1992 and August 1994, were

12 there civilians living in Nedzarici?

13 A. Yes few, but there were because our numbers were declining.

14 Q. Was there any particular reason as to why the civilians were not

15 moved out of that area, given your evidence this morning that all of the

16 buildings in Nedzarici had been hit?

17 A. Civilians by and large had nowhere to go. Because this whole

18 area was exposed to operations and they preferred to be killed when at

19 home than as refugees. Those people who stayed behind, of course.

20 Q. Did you understand that in the areas controlled by the ABiH, on

21 the other side of your frontline there were also civilians living?

22 A. One could assume that, yes.

23 MR. IERACE: Might the ELMO pan back, please. Is it possible for

24 the ELMO to pan back. Thank you. Further. Further. Thank you.

25 Q. Now, a few moments ago you pointed out the highway that ran from

Page 14214

1 the airport to Sarajevo. Would you please run your pointer along that

2 road from the UN post up to where it joined the boulevard? In the other

3 direction from the UN post that you marked yesterday, heading north.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. All right. Now, would you please move the pointer along that

6 yellow road from the UN position as marked on the map up to the main

7 intersection.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Please stop there. All right.

10 Now, along that road on the ABiH side of the confrontation lines,

11 did you know there to be residents, that is, civilians living on either

12 side of that road?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We didn't have any precise

15 information.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr.

17 Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. The question seems

19 contradictory to me. Because first it is talking about the ABiH army's

20 side, which should be to the east, and then answer by the two sides.

21 Therefore, the question somehow seems to me contradictory. Could it be

22 made more precise.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree with you that the question started

24 with the ABiH side and then continued on both sides. I do not know

25 whether it would create great confusion. But, perhaps, Mr. Ierace, if

Page 14215

1 you ask about the line, perhaps not use "one side" and "both side" in the

2 same question. Although I take it that the witness would have understood

3 that it is civilians living on both sides of the line.

4 Is that how you understood the question, Mr. DP4?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regards to the

6 situation that prevailed on the lines that were further away from our

7 lines meaning behind the enemy lines, we can only assess or infer

8 things. I do not have any particular knowledge. But I can tell you with

9 regards to the lines that were in front of me I was -- I could tell you

10 it was the market, nobody lived there. And then the circle indicates new

11 constructions that were right in front of us. So these were newly

12 constructed buildings, businesses actually, commercial buildings. But

13 they were not finished. And so I was not able to see on the other side.

14 So I can only infer.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please continue, Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE:

17 Q. And what did you infer?

18 A. I think that I was quite clear. I can only -- or I could only

19 assess or guess what was on the other side. But with regards to what was

20 in front of me, I think exactly what was there, and I know that it was

21 not inhabited directly.

22 Q. You told us that you received orders to not target civilians. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many times between September 1992 and August 1994 did you

Page 14216

1 receive such orders?

2 A. On many occasions. Because we were always told that we were

3 being watched by the International Community like under a magnifying

4 glass, and that we were always -- we were always accused of doing things.

5 And this is why we had to protect our military pride.

6 Q. When you say you were always accused of doing things, do you mean

7 accused of deliberately shooting and shelling civilians?

8 A. We were receiving the informations as to what we should not do.

9 We didn't know what we were accused of. And we were told that we should

10 defend our military pride. And it is obvious that we wouldn't do what a

11 normal man wouldn't do.

12 Q. Sir, you said a few minutes ago: "We were always accused of

13 doing things and this is why we had to protect our military pride."

14 What did you understand you were always accused of doing?

15 A. I was referring to the fact that the medias could take advantage

16 and say whatever they want to with regards to what was going on in that

17 area. If something happens by error, one can always say that it was made

18 on purpose. Or if there was a bullet, a stray bullet all of a sudden

19 that was shot and it is quite possible that a stray bullet may kill

20 somebody or may injure someone. And in order to avoid this precisely this

21 is why it was defended to open fire if it was not necessary and only to

22 reply.

23 Q. To your knowledge, was there any investigation carried out in

24 Nedzarici in relation to the -- an allegation that civilians had been

25 deliberately targeted by Bosnian Serb forces in that area?

Page 14217

1 A. We did not receive information that somebody was hit somewhere,

2 and this is why they were not able to carry out an investigation.

3 Q. So I take it that you are not aware of any such investigation

4 being carried out between September 1992 and August 1994. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. No, not personally.

7 Q. All right. Now, you have told us that those orders were given

8 during that period and you said, "on many occasions." How frequently?

9 Once a week, once a fortnight, once a month?

10 A. At least once a week.

11 Q. Did you ever receive any orders in writing during the period,

12 that is, orders on anything between September 1992 and August 1994?

13 A. No position of the line wherever there were soldiers at that

14 post, nobody ever received a written order. It was always orally made.

15 Q. All right. Now, did you have command over any soldiers

16 underneath you?

17 A. No, never.

18 Q. So we are talking about orders given to you by voice at least

19 once a week for some 23 months to the effect that you must not shoot

20 civilians. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I take it therefore that given you were armed with a rifle,

23 that --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- when you used your rifle shooting across the frontline, you

Page 14218

1 understood you had to be very careful not to shoot a civilian correct?

2 A. Yes. But I will repeat: In the zone in question, there were no

3 civilians. Our position was near the flower plant and it was just

4 impossible to shoot in such a way that the bullet would go any further.

5 Q. Were you in exactly the same position on the frontline for the

6 entire 23 months between September 1992 and August 1994?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Point again, please, to where that position was.

9 A. This is the installation. It is inside the nursery and that is

10 where it was.

11 Q. And were there some greenhouses in that nursery?

12 A. Yes, there were.

13 Q. So in your case, you could shoot safely in terms of avoiding

14 civilians. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now --

17 A. But we did take the order seriously, so we did not shoot for any

18 unnecessary reason.

19 Q. All right. Did you understand Nedzarici to be strategically a

20 very important part of the frontline around Sarajevo?

21 A. We considered it to be an important position strategically,

22 especially for us who grew up there and who were born there. So it was

23 an emotional, it was an emotional importance for us.

24 Q. Apart from the emotional importance to those who came from the

25 area, it was a part of Bosnian Serb territory that extruded into the

Page 14219

1 Bosnian government side, wasn't it? It was an outpost, if you like?

2 A. I am sorry. Are you referring to the Muslim forces in Sarajevo?

3 Is that what you mean?

4 Q. What you would call the Muslim forces --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am trying to

6 follow the instructions that you gave us earlier, so I would like to make

7 an objection. The question, as it is asked by the Prosecution, has to do

8 with a strategic notion. The question is, what was the strategic

9 importance. But with regards to what was said earlier, it would be more

10 adequate to first see if there were any strategically important places.

11 This man was only a soldier, I would like to remind you, and this is why

12 I think this question should be rephrased.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please find a factual basis

14 for the assessment of strategical aspects of the conflict by this

15 witness?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I rely on the fact that he was a

17 soldier there throughout the period on the frontline and the nature of

18 the frontline that is it extruded into the opponent's territory. And

19 as we have seen, was exposed -- and from this witness's evidence alone --

20 was exposed on at least three sides.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Ierace is

23 not telling us how could this witness know any specific facts about the

24 military art. He is asking some questions with regard to strategy, but

25 strategy is something that people learn in military schools. For

Page 14220

1 instance, he could ask the witness whether he went through a military

2 training, for instance, if he took part in some war games, as they are

3 taught in those schools.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, at least on your first question about

5 strategic aspects, part of the answer of the witness was about

6 emotional -- or how they experienced emotionally that and that might show

7 some -- well, at least some confusion as to what exactly strategic

8 position is. Could you please try to make it as factual.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MR. IERACE: I am sorry. The question I asked at page 49, line

11 13 acknowledged the witness's answer as to its emotional importance to

12 him and then directed his attention to the extrusion of the territory

13 into the Bosniak territory, and invited him to agree that it was in that

14 sense, an outpost.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 MR. IERACE: I can approach it a different way, Mr. President. I

17 am very conscious of the time.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would approach it in a different way,

19 please proceed.

20 MR. IERACE: All right.

21 Q. Please look at the map to your right which is Exhibit D1764.

22 Please point to the Institute for Blind Children.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. The frontline falls away to the south-west from that institution

25 and also falls away to the south-east. Is that correct?

Page 14221

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Page 14222

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Page 14223

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So here we have the Institute for Blind Children at the point of

3 an arrowhead, if you like, into your opponent's territory. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. One could say this, yes.

6 Q. I don't know how it is translated, but are you familiar with the

7 word "salient" that this was a salient on the frontline?

8 A. I could not say that it was like a nail. Our positions were

9 surrounded from all sides. Now, if you are talking about that, I am not

10 quite sure if I can answer this question.

11 Q. All right. Well perhaps it doesn't translate too well.

12 For what period of time did your company control the Institute

13 for Blind Children?

14 A. Throughout the whole period.

15 Q. Why did you not draw the frontline, therefore, in such a way as

16 to include those buildings?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours,

18 I am not quite certain and would like to check something on the map.

19 Just a moment, please. Yes Mr. President, this map seems to be

20 slightly -- not to -- not sufficiently precise or insufficiently precise.

21 We know that the institute is comprised of three buildings, and I have the

22 impression that we cannot draw a conclusive evidence from in view of the

23 map and in view of what is shown here. Thank you.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is extraordinary given that it's

25 a Defence map, given that the witness has just pointed to the buildings of

Page 14224

1 the Institute for Blind Children, and given what the Trial Chamber knows.

2 There is nothing wrong with that question and there is no room for

3 misleading the witness by asking it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday, you stopped drawing a line just before

5 the Institute for Blind Children. The question of the Prosecution is why

6 you stopped there?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Without any particular reason, I

8 was a little confused, the thickness of the felt pen was confusing me.

9 And I thought it was more important to draw the line where it was most

10 present. It is a 2-kilometre long area. And you could never walk along

11 this line because you would just die. And during the war, I was not all

12 that much present up there.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber noticed that the opposite

14 frontline of the ABiH forces was drawn a bit longer. So, Mr. Ierace,

15 would you please proceed.

16 MR. IERACE:

17 Q. Would you please take the blue pen the fine-point pen, and

18 continue the northern end of the frontline, that is the frontline of

19 your company so that it reflects the full length of the frontline that

20 was operated or manned by your company.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. All right. You have now extended the frontline through to the

23 intersection of Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street and Lukavicka Cesta. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14225

1 Q. All right. Now, did you go to any of those buildings between

2 September 1992 and August of 1994?

3 A. Only once, escorted by the commander of the company during the

4 war.

5 Q. When was that?

6 A. It was somewhere early 1995. I am not quite sure.

7 Q. The question was whether you went there between September 1992

8 and August 1994. Are you now telling us that you didn't go there at all

9 in that period?

10 A. Yes, that is what I am saying.

11 Q. At any stage in that period, did you see amongst your fellow

12 soldiers anyone with a rifle equipped with a telescopic sight?

13 A. With regards to this line, no. Because it was visually

14 impossible to hit something, any target, from the basement of the

15 installations we were based at because we were defending the line.

16 Q. All right. Please listen carefully to the question and I will

17 repeat it. At any stage in that period did you see amongst your fellow

18 soldiers, and by that I mean soldiers anywhere in Nedzarici, Bosnian Serb

19 soldiers, anyone with a rifle equipped with a telescopic sight?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you were handed your weapon in 1992, you have told us that

22 weapons were handed out by the Civil Defence which the neighbourhood

23 community staff somehow procured, did you see then any weapons with a

24 telescopic sight?

25 A. No. The weapons handed out by the Civil Defence was old. Some

Page 14226

1 rifles, M-48, for instance it is only later that I received an automatic

2 rifle, sometime in the summer of 1992.

3 Q. And is that a new rifle?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I wish to

5 say at this point is the following: My objection goes back to the two

6 previous questions, I believe it was not admissible. The first question

7 began "at any stage of this period." When the witness clearly answered

8 "no," he was asked a second question which goes as follows: When the

9 Civil Defence gave you or handed you questions. It is the same question

10 but asked in two different ways. And basically if the Defence did the

11 same thing, I wouldn't think it would be allowed.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It is not quite clear to me to what question you are

13 referring. I see one question starting with: "At any stage of that

14 period." That is on page 54, line 2, is that correct? Or is there --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was referring to page 2,

16 line 54, question 54. And I was referring to the next question on page

17 7, question 55. And I was also referring to question on page -- there is

18 a question on page 12 so, I was basically talking about these three

19 questions. The first question, question number 12, invites the

20 witness -- or rather, the Prosecution asked the same question even though

21 the witness answered, "no." So the Defence deems it is not an admissible

22 question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I am totally confused, I must say. Could you just

24 tell me precisely what the content of the question was you are --

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 14227

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we may not

2 have the same pages, but there is a question on page 54, I repeat, page

3 54, line 7. The question reads as follows: [In English] "At any stage in

4 that period did you see amongst your fellow soldiers --"

5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay that is the first question. And the second

6 question was?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, and the second

8 question is: [In English] "When you were handed your weapon in 1992"

9 [Interpretation] A few questions lower. And then the same question is

10 asked over again. Since the first question was saying: "At any point in

11 time in that period, did you," and then after that the same question is

12 asked in different words. So I believe that it is not admissible.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you please respond.

14 MR. IERACE: They are different questions, Mr. President. It

15 doesn't canvas the same issue. It is a different aspect, that is whether

16 in 1992 when weapons were handed out he saw then any rifles or whatever

17 with a telescopic sight, whether or not they were handed to his fellow

18 soldiers.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied. Please proceed.

20 MR. IERACE:

21 Q. All right. I think I was asking you about the new rifle you

22 received in 1992. Were new weapons distributed generally in 1992 at that

23 period?

24 A. Yes. New weapons were distributed to trenches. So I didn't

25 always know what the others received. But with regards to us, we did not

Page 14228

1 receive those weapons because we didn't have positions to shoot from.

2 Because visually, we were impaired with regards to the Muslim soldiers.

3 Q. Are you talking about rifles with telescopic sights?

4 A. Yes. We were not handed those weapons because we couldn't use

5 them. That's probably why we didn't receive them.

6 Q. All right. And are you saying that you would expect those rifles

7 to go to soldiers who were in a position to use them, in other words, who

8 had a wider view of targets?

9 A. I couldn't guess these things.

10 Q. But you have made an assumption as to why you didn't get them.

11 A. Yes. But I cannot guess, I could not tell you with certainty why

12 somebody would not receive them and why others would. I am talking to

13 you about what I know.

14 Q. Now during the period that we have mentioned, September 1992 to

15 August 1994, were there times when you observed artillery and mortars

16 being used by your side to assist you in conflicts?

17 A. Yes. Artillery was used in order to help or to answer when there

18 was an artillery fired, fired. I can give you some examples, if you

19 wish.

20 Q. That's all right. But the situation was that your side was

21 outnumbered by the other side, correct? They had more soldiers?

22 A. Yes. It is only an assumption.

23 Q. And in Nedzarici the frontlines were very close. I think you

24 said yesterday, a matter of 50 or 70 meters, correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14229

1 Q. You and your fellow soldiers when machine-guns and rifles,

2 therefore, needed the support of artillery --

3 A. Yes --

4 Q. And therefore needed the support of artillery and mortars in

5 order to hold the line, is that so?

6 A. In front of our lines there were some areas that were mined. And

7 we were well fortified. It is only an exceptional circumstances when we

8 were attacked heavily or when we had to pull out the wounded or the dead,

9 we would ask through the commander of the company for some interventions.

10 Q. From time to time --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honour, I

12 must say that I was not following the English text in the headphones. I

13 must say that the way the question was asked on page 57, line 16, does

14 not make any sense. On the one hand it was interrupted, and on the other

15 there is no verb. I must say, I cannot follow very clearly.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness was interrupting

17 counsel for the Prosecution when he put that question. So I do not think

18 that the Prosecution can be blamed for only finishing its question after

19 the interruption. The question is finished on lines 19 and 20.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. On occasions, tanks would come in and offer you support. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember one of those occasions being on the 24th of

Page 14230

1 September 1992?

2 A. I cannot recall the date. It was very long -- very long time

3 ago. I cannot really -- I cannot really say which tank came out to fire.

4 Q. In any event, the artillery and some of the mortars that gave you

5 that support were located well back from Nedzarici, weren't they, not in

6 Nedzarici itself?

7 A. No that is not correct. In front of the convent or the School

8 of Theology, there were mortars, 60 and 80 millimetre mortars.

9 Q. I appreciate that. Perhaps my question wasn't fully interpreted.

10 I said artillery and some of the mortars. All right. So we have 60 and

11 80 millimetre at the convent or Institute of Theology. There were mortars

12 at the barracks as well, were there not?

13 A. I am not aware of any mortars in the barracks.

14 Q. Where else did you see mortars apart from the convent in

15 Nedzarici?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am

18 completely -- the interpreter's completely lost me. I am talking about

19 58:23, and I do not know what is it that the witness could have said in

20 Serbian because I wasn't listening very carefully. But I know that in

21 that place, the French interpretation talks with reference to

22 Mr. Ierace's question about the convent. That is what I heard, the

23 convent. I don't see it in the transcript, and I was not following

24 Mr. Ierace. I don't know whether they were talking about convent or not,

25 but I heard it in French. And that really sounds odd.

Page 14231

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I -- the witness answered: "In front of the

2 convent or the School of Theology." Do I understand you well that you

3 are using indistinctively the words "convent" and "School of Theology"?

4 Is that the same for you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that seems to be rather clear from the answer

7 of the witness. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. And, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if

8 it really is necessary to make an objection, could you do it in two or

9 three lines.

10 MR. IERACE:

11 Q. Was the convent the only place that you saw mortars in Nedzarici?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a particular weapon used by the ABiH

14 which you pronounced as a Zolja. What is that?

15 A. It is an anti-armour rocket launcher for a single time use.

16 Q. All right. Now, please look again at the map to your right.

17 This morning we heard mention of the Airport Settlement. Would you

18 please point to the area known as the Airport Settlement.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. IERACE: And for the benefit of the transcript, the witness

22 has pointed to a complex of streets, many of which are parallel,

23 immediately to the north-east of that part of the map, identified as the

24 Aerodrom Sarajevo.

25 Q. It was suggested to you or it was suggested that the southern

Page 14232

1 wall of the convent overlooked that area. Is that correct?

2 A. It is the lower part of the convent faces this locality.

3 Q. When you use the phrase, "the lower part of the convent," what do

4 you exactly mean?

5 A. What you asked me about means this part that we already mentioned

6 earlier.

7 Q. Perhaps you could point to it, that is the part you mean by "the

8 lower part."

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. All right. Do you mean the wall that faces south-west -- I am

11 sorry -- south-east? The wall that faces towards the Airport Settlement?

12 A. That's right. The Airport Settlement and Dobrinja.

13 Q. Now, it seems from your evidence this morning that the institute

14 or the convent was obviously quite a target for the ABiH, that they

15 repeatedly either hit it or tried to hit it. Is that correct?

16 A. It is, like all the other places in Nedzarici.

17 Q. Well, except that you have told us that there were mortars there,

18 and you have also told us that it had a number of storeys correct?

19 A. I said that in the uppermost part of this building, and it is

20 this part here, had four floors then a wing that was mentioned, which was

21 a 3 storey wing. And this part here, lower, which housed the kitchen, the

22 canteen and where our medical corps was during the war.

23 Q. Let me make sure I understand this. The northern corner was four

24 storeys, the side facing south-west was three storeys. Is that correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 14233

1 Q. And the side that faced towards the Airport Settlement had how

2 many storeys?

3 A. Three.

4 Q. So that was actually quite a good building to look over a large

5 area, including into enemy territory, wasn't it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. Because one cannot say that it is a tall building because it

9 isn't and because it wasn't safe to go to the upper floors because they

10 are not all that high, high up. And around us -- around it were six or

11 18 storey buildings. So as for the visibility, it was impossible to have

12 a good visibility. Then, and I will show it to you here on the map,

13 there were -- this is a row of buildings in Dobrinja V -- no, sorry --

14 here. Here you have a neighbourhood of private houses, there is a mosque

15 there. And it also obstructs the view of this area. Here we have

16 high-rise buildings and they can -- from them you can very clearly see

17 this whole area, if you follow what I am saying. And there is also the

18 distance that has to be taken out, which is a kilometre to a kilometre and

19 a half to 2. One can measure it. One can look at the map scale and if

20 one wants to establish the exact distance, one can easily do that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, in the examination-in-chief it has been

22 established that the witness never went up to the first or second floor,

23 and that a lot of his observations are the results of his logic. When

24 adding any questions in this respect, perhaps you could keep in mind to

25 what extent it would assist the Chamber to have more logic and less

Page 14234

1 observation. Please proceed.

2 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Might the witness be

3 shown Exhibit P3259. I will keep that in mind, Mr. President. Perhaps

4 while that is being done, I appreciate that much of that last answer will

5 make little sense, given the witness hasn't described precisely where he

6 was referring. But unless you wish it, Mr. President, I don't propose to

7 bring out that detail. I will, if you wish it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether, on the basis of a map, where

9 we all know that lines of view and sight are relatively complicated. If

10 we just have to assess them on the basis of a map, whether that would be

11 of great assistance.

12 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the reason --

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you think it is -- I asked you to keep in mind to

14 what extent it would be of assistance. So if you would keep that in

15 mind, proceed with the issue.

16 MR. IERACE: Perhaps this will assist.

17 Q. Sir --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems to

20 the Defence useful to put in the transcript what the witness showed

21 because he was pointing at certain areas to say that there were

22 structures there so that one couldn't see beyond them, behind them. And

23 I would like it to be precise. We think that it should be in the

24 transcript. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness transferred mainly to the built

Page 14235

1 up areas close to the dotted line the last part where it goes in

2 north-easterly direction. If that would be a correct way of stating it

3 for the transcript. Then please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Now, sir, I think the last few minutes you have been looking at

6 two photographs in front of you. Is that correct?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be put on the ELMO, if possible. Usher,

8 could you please assist. Mr. DP4, we ask the photographs to be put on the

9 ELMO so that we can see the same as you do.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the usher could assist us with the last

12 digits of the ERN on the photograph which is presently on the ELMO.

13 Thank you. I think it is 4244.

14 Q. In that photograph, do you recognise the convent, otherwise known

15 as the Institute of Theology?

16 A. I do. Yes, you can see the top of the convent's building.

17 Q. Would you please point to it.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 MR. IERACE: The witness points to a white building which

20 presently has a -- what appears to be a black circle placed on it. Is it

21 black? Yes, thank you. All right. Would you now please, Mr. Court

22 Usher, show the witness the second photograph. All right.

23 Q. Now, in the background of the photograph in front of you which

24 ends in ERN 4245, do you see Nedzarici? Perhaps, sir, you could look at

25 the photograph in front of you rather than the screen. That will give

Page 14236

1 you a better view.

2 A. It is not clear. It is not clear.

3 Q. Well, don't look at the screen look at the photograph. Do you

4 recognise in the background, Nedzarici?

5 A. I do.

6 MR. IERACE: That might be returned. Those photographs can be

7 returned. Thank you. And might the witness be shown -- excuse me -- the

8 map that he was shown this morning. I think it is Exhibit P3728 relating

9 to sniping incident 23.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Do you intend to tender that or would you --

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, they already are in evidence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I mean so you are using the original one

13 and not the copies?

14 MR. IERACE: Oh, I am sorry.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We have been provided with copies, I take it for our

16 convenience. No markings are necessary

17 MR. IERACE: No markings are necessary so I suppose it is the

18 Defence copy of P3278. Thank you.

19 Q. Now, on this map, you see a dark green and light green parallel

20 lines around Nedzarici, not entirely, but largely, do you see that? And

21 again, sir, could you please look at the map rather than the screen.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP4, on the map the colours are better, I take

23 it. Your attention was drawn to the dark green lines and the brighter

24 green lines.

25 MR. IERACE:

Page 14237

1 Q. In particular, would you look at those green lines in the area of

2 the Airport Settlement. Do those green lines show the frontline positions

3 in the Airport Settlement?

4 A. They do.

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. IERACE: Might that be returned.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can add that I was not at that

8 frontline, and, therefore, I cannot affirm positively which was building

9 to the left, to the right and who lived where.

10 MR. IERACE:

11 Q. Now, between September 1992 and August 1994 were there any

12 ceasefires on your part of the frontline?

13 A. There were several ceasefires on our side. At the time when

14 ceasefires were signed we to be ordered not to open fire unless our lives

15 were in danger.

16 Q. You said that there were several ceasefires. During that period,

17 would there have been more than ten or less than ten or about ten?

18 A. Less than ten.

19 Q. What was the longest period of ceasefire that you recollect in

20 that period?

21 A. All of them lasted for a very short time because whenever there

22 was a ceasefire, people would get relaxed and then invariably there were

23 woundings and killings. What I am trying to say is that the enemy side

24 did not comply with these ceasefires.

25 Q. My question is, what was the longest period of ceasefire and you

Page 14238

1 said all of them lasted for a very short time. What do you mean by "very

2 short time"? Hours or days or weeks?

3 A. I mean one day or less.

4 Q. All right. Thank you for that.

5 Now, you told us that you had some information that a Serb

6 prisoner or a Serb civilian was involved in the digging of a tunnel. How

7 did you come by that information?

8 A. Concretely, as I have already said.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, one needs

11 to be more precise than this. A moment ago we were talking about Serb

12 civilians in plural, so a number of persons, not as the question says,

13 Serb civilian involved in the digging of a tunnel.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I see the single form in the transcript, and that is

15 how you intended the question to be? So the question was about "a Serb

16 individual" being forced to participate in digging a tunnel. Would you

17 answer the question how this information got to you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman concerned was

19 assigned to us. He was a man younger than 55. So he was assigned to us

20 as reinforcement as a replenishment. But since he was mentally disabled,

21 we could not switch off the lights at night because he was traumatized.

22 He was afraid of the dark. And a few days later, he left our lines, so

23 this information I received directly from him.

24 Q. When did he join your company?

25 A. It was in late May that is, late May, early June 1995. And the

Page 14239

1 whole period before that he spent in captivity in the Hrasnic prison and

2 taken to do forced labour.

3 Q. Did he ever tell you when it was that he came over to the side of

4 the confrontation lines controlled by the Bosnian Serbs?

5 A. Right before getting to our line, that is joining our combat

6 order, he had been exchanged.

7 Q. So I take it that was sometime in 1995. Is that correct?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. What was his name?

10 A. I cannot remember exactly, but if Your Honours need it when I go

11 back, I can send you his name and another particulars. He lived in

12 Hrasnica, worked at Famos and it was their settlement in Hrasnica. I saw

13 him after Dayton at a new location in Serb Sarajevo.

14 Q. Now, in Nedzarici, was there a tram terminal?

15 A. I didn't hear the question clearly. I mean, I couldn't hear the

16 interpretation.

17 Q. I will repeat the question. I am asking you about something else

18 now. In Nedzarici, was there a tram terminal?

19 A. There was one such.

20 MR. IERACE: Might the witness again be shown map P1764.

21 JUDGE ORIE: While this is being done, Mr. Ierace may I ask you,

22 we are close to the time where we usually have a break. How much time

23 would you still need.

24 MR. IERACE: Just a few minutes, Mr. President. I anticipate that

25 I can finish this witness subject to a reflection over the break in the

Page 14240

1 next few minutes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then please proceed and we'll then continue.

3 MR. IERACE: Could the ELMO be zoomed in.

4 Q. Please point to the position of the tram terminal in Nedzarici.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. All right.

7 A. Thereabouts.

8 Q. Now, have you just pointed to an area where, for a different

9 purpose, yesterday you wrote the number "6"? Is that correct?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. Yes. I mean, number "6" marks students' hostels which are right

13 beneath number 6.

14 Q. So the tram terminal is beneath the number 6. Is that correct?

15 A. No. Student hostels are beneath number 6.

16 Q. Student hostels are in the circle indicated by number 6. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... blue pen and place a cross to

20 indicate the position of the tram terminal.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. All right. Now, as indicated by the map, was it the case -- I

23 withdraw that.

24 Before the war, did trams travel right along the boulevard into

25 Ilidza and then turn around?

Page 14241

1 A. That's right, some trams.

2 Q. Yes. Of course, that wasn't possible during the war. So did the

3 trams within the city instead turn around in the vicinity of the

4 Oslobodjenje building? If you don't know, please say so.

5 A. I don't know. There was no electricity so I think they were not

6 in service, but I can't say.

7 Q. So you don't know whether trams ran in the city between September

8 1992 and August 1994; is that correct?

9 A. As I said, I do not know.

10 Q. Before the war, immediately before the war, were trams stored at

11 the terminal? In other words was there a shed where the trams were kept

12 on that spot or near that spot?

13 A. No. They were parked on Grasova [phoen] which is where the shed

14 was, where the tram depot was.

15 Q. Does that appear on the map above the word "boulevard" -- please

16 look at the map. I think you can see the word "Gras."

17 MR. IERACE: The map will need to be moved. Perhaps the ELMO can

18 pan back a little. Move to the right. Thank you. All right.

19 Q. So that is where the tram carriage was stored. Is that correct?

20 A. That's right

21 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the area of the word "Gras."

22 Q. Would you please circle that.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Please put a circle around the tram terminal buildings or

25 building.

Page 14242

1 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. I could not hear the witness.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President. I would be grateful

5 for it opportunity to confirm that immediately after the break. At this

6 stage I don't anticipate any further questions.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We will then have a break until five minutes to

8 1.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

10 --- On resuming 1.00 p.m

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. There is one further

13 issue. I don't think it will take longer than a few minutes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then, please proceed.

15 MR. IERACE:

16 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that the UN occupied two positions in

17 Nedzarici. First of all, in relation to the position on the

18 intersection, on the airport road, what was it exactly? Was it a

19 building or a vehicle on the road? What?

20 A. It was some sort of a control checkpoint.

21 Q. Did it -- did you ever see it operating? In other words, did you

22 see what they did, if anything, as vehicles went along that road, through

23 that intersection?

24 A. For the main part they would communicate or get in touch with

25 their own members with vehicles that were going from the airport towards

Page 14243

1 Sarajevo. But I couldn't really tell you with precision what it was all

2 about.

3 Q. Essentially, it seemed to be part of the communications route

4 between the airport and the city. Is that correct?

5 A. Probably.

6 Q. All right. Now, the other position you marked on the map, I

7 think you described it as an old people's home. Is that correct or not?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And did you ever go there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When were there UN people in that building?

12 Sorry, I withdraw that question. If you never went there, how do

13 you know about it?

14 A. I heard about it from other members of our unit. And I was also

15 able to see when they were bringing humanitarian aid for the tenants of

16 the old people's home.

17 Q. At some stage those tenants were moved out weren't they?

18 A. As far as I know, no. A lot of them died, were killed, but I

19 don't know if during the war they were moved or they had moved away or

20 were transferred anywhere. There were many different nations living

21 there together.

22 Q. Did you ever meet any UN officials?

23 A. No.

24 Q. I suggest to you that if there was a UN post in that -- I withdraw

25 that.

Page 14244

1 Let's be a little clearer on exactly what you say happened there.

2 I think you said you heard about it from other members of the unit, and

3 you saw when they brought humanitarian aid in for the tenants. Is that

4 all that you heard about the UN in that building?

5 A. I heard from the director, Milena Mucibabic she was a director of

6 that place, that they were coming in to bring in humanitarian aid and food

7 and other supplies.

8 Q. So you don't know what their function was in that building, apart

9 from bringing in humanitarian aid. Is that correct?

10 A. I can only assume that they were a surveillance unit --

11 Q. I am not asking you what you can assume. I am asking you what

12 you know. In terms of what you know, it goes only as far as bringing in

13 humanitarian aid. Is that correct?

14 A. I know that they stayed there, but I don't know if they only went

15 there for that purpose.

16 Q. I suggest to you that if they stayed there, they only did so up

17 until early 1993. What do you say to that?

18 A. I think that that is incorrect.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have no further questions. There

20 is something I wish to raise in the absence of the witness. It need not

21 be done now. It could be done at the conclusion of the witness's

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps we will first see whether the

24 Judges have any questions unless the cross-examination would have raised

25 an issue that the Defence would like to touch upon.

Page 14245

1 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank

3 you.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, in answer to a question put to you by

6 the Prosecutor, you mentioned that there was a mosque in the neighbourhood

7 of Dobrinja. Do you remember this?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. With regards to that mosque, was it ever, during the

10 period that we are interested in, was it ever shot at --

11 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase the question.

13 Q. What can you tell us, sir -- I will rephrase my question again.

14 And I withdraw the question as well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The object was about the formulation of the

16 question --

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it was to the substance of the

18 question. Firstly, the mention of the mosque was not given in response to

19 a question asked by me; secondly, it was not mentioned in the context of

20 the issue that my friend now seeks to raise for the first time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you respond to that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please use the microphone.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am terribly sorry. I do

25 not know whether it was in answer to a question by myself or the

Page 14246

1 Prosecutor but all I know is that -- rather, I believe, Mr. President,

2 that it was following an intervention by the Prosecutor. I remember

3 having asked that we put in the transcript the fact that the witness had

4 shown small constructions, small buildings or family homes, and I

5 described also the fact that he had indicated a mosque in the background.

6 So, I do not remember if you recall this, but I believe it was following

7 a question put to the witness by Mr. Ierace. And secondly, since the

8 witness mentioned himself the existence of a mosque and since the

9 Prosecution is saying that it was a campaign made to destroy cultural

10 installations and objects, this was not the question --

11 MR. IERACE: I object. I am very concerned about my learned

12 colleague's choice to go into that sort of detail in front of the

13 witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How many questions would you have in mind,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Are we talking about the

17 mosque?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Only one with regards to the

20 mosque.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I am not

22 telling you that it will go this way always, but usually an objection

23 takes more time than a question. Please put the question to the witness.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 Q. Witness, what can you tell us, if you can tell us anything, about

Page 14247

1 the physical state in which the mosque was during the war, if you know?

2 A. I didn't hear that the mosque was ever targeted or hit. I do not

3 know that fact. But it is certainly something that can be verified.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... question about

6 the mosque, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Any other issue to be -- I saw in the

7 transcript, as a matter of fact, that in response -- I don't know whether

8 it is true or not -- but that you said I will reformulate my question, I

9 will withdraw that question. So that is the reason why I thought we

10 could be fairly quick on this issue.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I pursue -- may I

12 continue? I have some more questions to ask the witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends on what subject. The mosque has

14 been dealt with, I take it --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... what would be

17 there that came up during the cross-examination.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course. The Prosecution

19 asked that two pictures be placed on the ELMO, those were two pictures

20 showing some people linked to incident number 23. Could we please ask

21 the usher to put these pictures back on the ELMO and I would like to ask

22 some questions with respect to those pictures.

23 We have two pictures, this one where we see -- may I please have

24 them, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have one overall picture and the other one

Page 14248

1 is a close-up.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Very well. I would like to ask the technical booth to zoom in the area

4 where we can see the convent, as much as you can. Thank you, thank you.

5 That's it. Stop.

6 Q. Sir, let's focus on the so-called convent. How many walls do you

7 see here, that is my first question?

8 A. One wall and we can only see something, a whitish surface, and it

9 is the lower wall right here.

10 Q. Very well. I am talking about the white building. Do you see

11 here one wall?

12 A. Yes, I do. But partially only.

13 Q. Second question: Is this the floor that would have been

14 destroyed during the war and consequently the one that was rebuilt later.

15 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. IERACE: That is a leading question, Mr. President --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well then.

19 Q. Can you tell us --

20 MR. IERACE: -- and contradicts the evidence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be -- if you'd like to -- you put to

22 the witness that a storey -- that a floor that had been destroyed during

23 the war. Could you please indicate where the witness said that before

24 continuing.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I may search

Page 14249

1 for the relevant passage, but from memory, I can tell you that the

2 witness said --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it is in the presence of the

4 witness we are not going to repeat what it was you who would like to

5 have a direct quoting of --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall find it.

7 In the meantime, would Mr. Ierace be so kind enough to tell me if what I

8 said earlier with regards to mosque was right or not.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am

11 searching, but I am experiencing some technical difficulties with my

12 system. I am not such a good operator, I must admit. So in order not to

13 waste any time, I propose to ask the following question.

14 Q. Witness, the building, did it have all its floors during the war?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, what can you tell us, since you are telling

17 us now that the building did not have all its floors during the war, what

18 can you tell us about it?

19 A. After the war, the convent was rebuilt, renovated. It became

20 operational again. And one extra floor was added and also some other

21 rooms were also added in the base -- on the ground level.

22 Q. Thank you very much. The wall that we see on this picture, does

23 it correspond to one or the other of the parties -- sorry -- one of the

24 other rebuilt areas or parts of the building?

25 A. I am not quite certain, but I think that this is the renovated

Page 14250

1 area. So what is to the left on this picture.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your

4 leave, I would like to ask the witness to be shown the map covering

5 incident number 23, but I would also like that the picture be kept on the

6 ELMO or on the screen, that is to say maybe Mr. Usher can just superimpose

7 the map --

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before that happens I would be

9 grateful if we could have for the benefit of the transcript the

10 description by you of the portion indicated by the witness as the

11 renovated area.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it is of vital importance for the

13 questions you put to the witness at this moment. So you perhaps could

14 try to find it all and see whether what the witness testified about it at

15 an earlier stage. I think it was during the examination-in-chief

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, what I mean is the portion just

17 indicated by the witness just a few moments ago.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, the portion of the building in the photograph.

19 MR. IERACE: Yes, he said, it is on page 78 line 20, "I am not

20 quite certain but I think this is the renovated area, so what is to the

21 left on this picture." At that point the witness indicated the left

22 corner of the convent building.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You would say left from the circle? Yes. That's --

24 he indicated that it was the left part, that as far as he knew, that is

25 clarified now for the transcript.

Page 14251

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Could the map be

3 put on the screen. [In English] All right. This way.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you just told us that there is only one

5 wall. If we now take a look from the place where the photography was

6 taken which corresponds to point 23, isn't it true to say that we should

7 at least see two walls, meaning one angle indicating two walls and one

8 wall behind? This is if we take into account that we are talking what we

9 can see from point 23.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: Again it is a leading question. Secondly, it is a

12 question that makes no sense, given what appears on the map which is on

13 the ELMO by way of a depiction of the building, which is, at best, a dot.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I do take it that you are referring to the

15 white large building and that -- could the parties -- could I just ask

16 the witness to take his headphones off.

17 [Interpretation] Is it possible that the parties may agree on the

18 fact that from point number 23, it is possible to see not only one wall,

19 but since there is an angle, that one could see two walls forming an

20 angle? And when I am talking about a wall, I am referring to the Faculty

21 of Theology. That building. Or belonging to that building.

22 MR. IERACE: Perhaps if the witness has his headphones removed

23 and perhaps if he could not look at the screen.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What we could do is in order to prevent the witness

25 to -- could perhaps the -- Mr. DP6, do you speak or understand any

Page 14252

1 French?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand French.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... headphones on,

4 could he be put on channel five and could both parties speak English.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the usher could press the

6 video evidence button on the witness's --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I think that is the best solution,

8 practically.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it is suggested to me by one of my

10 colleague Judge's that it is better that the witness leave the courtroom.

11 Because it becomes too complicated and the risk of failures and complex

12 solutions always involve a risk. Would you please leave the courtroom

13 just for a short while.

14 THE WITNESS: [In English] No problem.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, might I

17 invite you to look at as well DP1764, which is the other map that depicts

18 this building in symbolic form. And when one compares them --

19 JUDGE ORIE: They are different.

20 MR. IERACE: They are different, and therefore, it seems to me it

21 is unreliable to rely on either, in terms of what one would expect to see

22 in the photograph in terms of whether it is one wall or more than one.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, on both shapes one finds at least

24 two walls, one going from south-east to north-west, and the other one

25 going from south-west to north-east. The difference is that in -- on the

Page 14253

1 map specifically relating to scheduled sniping incident 23, the walls are

2 coming together at the corner, where on the other map, they do not.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Can there be any agreement on whether from such a

5 distance you would certainly see more than one wall? On both sketches, I

6 would think that you see at least more than one wall.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems there

8 is a great contradiction here between the map. Whatever the map may be,

9 we were talking about the map presented by the Defence or the map

10 presented by the Prosecution and the picture also. The problem was

11 raised, and the only thing that you should do is to see if this picture

12 is a possible representation of what we can see from that other point.

13 So that would be enough. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It is not quite clear to me. Could you please

15 repeat that last part of your -- I will try to change to French.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, what the

17 Defence wishes to say here is the following: That of course it is not

18 the same thing that we see the evidence presented, exhibits of the

19 Prosecution of the Defence were not the same. On one picture we only see

20 one wall whereas on the other map, if we see something, we should at

21 least see two walls. We agree with this. We are satisfied with this

22 proposition.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... established that

24 one sees only one wall? Can we take that as a fact. I am just

25 wondering --

Page 14254

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Present, I have one small

2 request. Since I am listening to two channels and they are not always in

3 sync. It is not also a channel in which you are speaking -- so if you

4 speak to me --

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Yes, did I understand correctly that

6 you understand as it being a fact that we only see one wall? Is that what

7 you are telling me?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Yes, I am listening to you.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I only am trying -- the

11 only thing I am trying to say is that there is a contradiction in the

12 exhibits produced by the Prosecution. There was one picture that is

13 supposedly taken from this part of the incident, and that shows only one

14 wall.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Yes, but you are telling us that

16 this picture only shows one wall; is that correct? On the basis of what

17 can we accept this?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The testimony of the witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I better understand you now.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The picture only shows us one

21 wall and my eyes also enable me to see only one wall.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [In English] Does the Prosecution agree that we only

23 see one wall?

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President. And it seems -- perhaps this could be

25 clarified that my friend is now disputing that the building on that

Page 14255

1 exhibit marked on the photograph is the Institute of Theology. Is that in

2 dispute?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether it is

4 the position of the Defence that the white building with a black marking,

5 circle marking on it, is not the Faculty of Theology? Is that how I have

6 to understand the position of the Defence?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I am trying to say, and

8 I shall not say anything more, is that there is a great deal of

9 contradictions with what we can see on the picture and the presentation

10 of the map presenting incident number 23. It cannot be reconciled. I do

11 not know how to reconcile the problem. I don't if it's the faculty, the

12 monastery or whatever it is but I know that these two do not concur. I

13 don't know if the evidence was proven by the Prosecution, but one

14 contradicts the other.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That is the position of the Defence.

16 Now, what would you like to ask to the witness as the next

17 question because that is what -- why we were asking the witness to leave

18 the courtroom.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 I have only one and that will be my last and definitively last

21 question. It has to do with the tram.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. No more questions about the Faculty of

23 Theology. Then we could ask the witness to enter the courtroom again.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your patience. There is one more

Page 14256

1 question to be put to you.

2 THE WITNESS: No problem.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 Q. Witness, I want to be sure about one thing. You were asked about

5 the tram. And my question to you is the following, and very precise: Do

6 you remember until when until when did you personally see the tram

7 travel to and from Nedzarici for the last time? When was the last time

8 that you saw the tram get to and from Nedzarici?

9 A. [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly when, but shortly after

10 the conflict broke out problems with electricity started on their side and

11 on our side alike. So I suppose that it was right then that in 1992 they

12 could not travel already, but I can't be quite sure.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

14 Mr. President. I have finished.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Judge Nieto-Navia has

16 one or more questions to you.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you Mr. President. Could we put the

19 map 1764 ...

20 Would you use the pointer to point at the Airport Settlement.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Now, with the green pen would you circle the

23 area and put the letters "AS" for Airport Settlement.

24 A. [Marks]

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. Now, could you describe the type

Page 14257

1 of construction of buildings houses or high-rise buildings, what was the

2 type of construction there?

3 A. In the Airport Settlement where a low residential buildings, such

4 as ground floor and one floor, and they were in rows. So these were low

5 buildings.

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Now, can you see the dotted line going

7 north-west, the one on the map, the one that you drew?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: What was the type of construction there in

10 that area where it says Branislava something. Are you following me?

11 A. Yes, yes, I do.

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, that area.

13 A. Your Honour, do you mean buildings on our side towards Nedzarici?

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes.

15 A. Inside, in the interior -- in the interior behind the Serb

16 forces?

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Sorry. South of the road which bears the

18 name Branislava.

19 A. Nusica, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, that area.

21 A. This area. In this area are again private family houses. As a

22 rule, usually one-storey building, that is a ground floor and one floor

23 above. Just one-storey houses.

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia also has a question for you -- I am

Page 14258

1 sorry, Judge El Mahdi. I apologise.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 [Interpretation] I would like you, please, if you remember, to

4 tell me the following: You were talking about the issue of rifles with

5 telescopic sights which was in 1992. Could you be more precise and tell

6 us which month was it? Was it towards the end of the year or when or

7 perhaps early summer?

8 A. In my reply when I was asked by the Prosecutor, I said that I did

9 not see those weapons being distributed. So I cannot really say when and

10 how they were issued, but we got new weapons in the summer of 1992 and

11 then onward gradually.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. I am not talking about

13 you. I am not talking about the rifles that you received. I was

14 referring to the issue of new weapons which also featured the telescopic

15 sights. And you said that they were also issued in 1992, perhaps I am

16 wrong, so perhaps you could put me right in that regard.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry. But I just

20 received instruction from my colleague. I do not know that this witness

21 said that. Perhaps we are failed, but it would really surprise me if

22 there was any mention of rifles with telescopic sights.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] It is page 56, if that helps

24 you. And I would like to seek information --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much and my

Page 14259

1 profoundest apologies. I am sorry.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And I can also be more precise

3 and I can say that the rifles, that is this type of rifles, were not

4 issued to them because in view of the positions that they held, isn't it?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we completely agree and

6 I was -- I was wrong. My apologies.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say that this type of

9 weapons was ever distributed in our area, and such weapons were not.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am not talking about yourself.

11 I am not talking about your company. I am speaking in general.

12 A. In general in the area which I knew as far as I knew it, I did

13 not see anyone being issued with such a weapon. Because in that area, it

14 could not really be of any use, and I do not know whether and when it was

15 issued to people in some other areas, so I can't say.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I have got one question for you as well that's about

18 the Faculty of Theology. I read part of your testimony of this morning.

19 You said, according to the transcript: "The south side of the convent, I

20 am showing you this area now, was one floor lower. It was just right

21 after the war because the convent was so damaged, one floor was added

22 after the war. So before the war and during the war, this part here was

23 only composed of three storeys. So it was only a 3-storey building at

24 that time."

25 That's what the transcript says about your testimony this

Page 14260

1 morning. Is my understanding correct that one part of that building was

2 added with one floor after the war, or was the whole building added with

3 one floor?

4 A. Only one part of the building was added, Your Honour. You

5 understood it correctly.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that was the part of the building facing,

7 I would say, south-east, the map is still -- even if the building is not

8 entirely correct on the map, but is that part of the building facing the

9 Airport Settlement?

10 A. Correct.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If you say a 3-storey building, do you mean ground

12 floor and three upper floors, or do you mean three floors altogether, so

13 ground floor and two upper floors?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So, do I understand you correctly --

16 A. I mean, a ground floor and two floors above it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the -- this building, the southern part

18 consisted of one ground floor and two upper floors after the war, that

19 part that was facing south-east; is that correct?

20 A. That's right.

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the witness to be shown Exhibit P3279T.

22 This photograph. And perhaps before doing so -- this photograph first.

23 And that is the same series ending with 1A. So first the -- first the

24 building from a distance. Yes.

25 Mr. DP4, do you recognise a white building at a far distance just

Page 14261

1 between the two apartment blocks?

2 A. Yes, I do, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell me what building that is.

4 A. This is the building of the School of Theology. Its tallest part

5 which wasn't changed after the war.

6 JUDGE ORIE: This is the part which was not changed after the

7 war, is that what your testimony says?

8 A. Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the other photograph be put...

10 This is the same picture, but in more detail. Could you confirm

11 that this part of the building consists of a ground floor and two upper

12 floors?

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that. Might I draw your

14 attention to the fourth row from the left, at least as it appears on the

15 computer screen.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. But let me just, Mr. Ierace, perhaps my

17 next question might be about that.

18 A. On this building you can see the ground floor and three floors

19 above it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this the School of Theology?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers. The picture may be

23 removed. I will give the other ones, two pictures, back to the

24 Registrar.

25 Mr. DP4, this concludes your examination in this courtroom. We

Page 14262

1 know that you same from a far distance. You answered all the questions,

2 both from the Defence, the Prosecution, and from the Bench. The Chamber

3 is aware, having listened carefully to your testimony, that it certainly

4 will have brought back in your mind also painful moments of the past. We

5 thank you very much for having come to The Hague and to give us your

6 testimony and I wish you have a safe trip home again.

7 We will adjourn --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. But

9 before I thank you, may I just say something. I remember the name of the

10 man that I spoke about, and said that he had dug a tunnel under the

11 runway. His first name was Milan. His last name still escapes me. But

12 I would like to thank you and the personnel who took care of us during

13 these last few days. And I hope that my testimony will help you and the

14 truth. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I do remember that you asked --

16 MR. IERACE: In the absence of the witness. But it doesn't

17 require the witness to stay.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't require the witness to stay. That is

19 clear to us. Well, once again, thank you for coming. Mr. Usher, could

20 you escort Mr. DP4 out of the courtroom.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you could raise the issue very

24 briefly. I know that the clock in this courtroom is a couple of minutes

25 before clocks elsewhere. So we are close to a quarter to 2.00.

Page 14263

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, very quickly this witness gave

2 evidence in chief that there was some sort of UN post in the old people's

3 home which is on the frontline as it happens, drawn by DP6 for which he

4 was the company commander. DP6 was asked no questions about that. The

5 existence of UN posts was not included in the summary of facts, and so it

6 came as a complete surprise by the Prosecution to hear this witness give

7 that evidence, especially given that it had not been brought out by the

8 Defence when DP6 was in the box.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. IERACE: Therefore, if DP6 is still in the Hague, in my

11 respectful submission he should be recalled for further cross-examination.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about DP6 --

13 MR. IERACE: In closed session I could indicate what the evidence

14 is in relation to that in the Prosecution case and whether or not it had

15 been put. That is, by the Defence, this account.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First question: Is DP6 still in The Hague?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know. I do not

18 know.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Does Ms. Pilipovic know?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not know if DP6

21 left today. We could check in the Victims and Witnesses Unit, whether he

22 left this morning.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I will ask the Registrar to check with the Victims

24 and Witnesses Unit whether Witness DP6 is still in The Hague, and if so,

25 of course, we still have to look at the objection. We don't have to

Page 14264

1 hurry if Witness DP6 is not in The Hague any more. So we will first

2 check that and see what should be done in respect of this objection.

3 Is there any other issue to be raised at this very moment that

4 could not wait until tomorrow?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, but --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. That cannot wait until tomorrow.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] One, the Defence did not know

8 what this witness was going to say. There are things which witnesses say

9 like this without informing us about them previously. Secondly, the

10 witness did not speak about -- one he simply said that the UN personnel

11 were there. He knew that -- he said that he knew -- he knew that because

12 he saw them bring in the humanitarian aid, and he believed there was also

13 something else and that was it. He did not say he had a military

14 observation post at that place. I mean, if every witness tells us every

15 time what he knows, we shall never get out and if every time the

16 Prosecution raises questions about this, we shall never get out of this.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to avoid too much emotion. One of the

18 first things of course that had to be checked, whether there was a

19 specific question in that direction, that of course would suggest that

20 the Defence would have expected such an answer, but if it came up

21 spontaneously, it might be totally different.

22 We will look at it and we will adjourn now until tomorrow morning

23 in this same courtroom. But not in the morning, we will sit in the

24 afternoon tomorrow. So a quarter past 2.00.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

Page 14265

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

2 October, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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