Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14357

1 Monday, 28 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom. I am glad

6 to see that no one was blown away during the weekend.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 As far as I have been informed, all the practical problems that

12 asked our attention last Thursday have been solved, at least. Yes, I see

13 nodding from both sides. So we could then continue to examine Witness DP

14 10. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes, Madam Usher, could you please escort

15 the witness into the courtroom.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP10. You hear me in a language you

18 understand?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the protective measures are effective. May

21 I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have

22 given at the beginning of your testimony.

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. With the help of

25 Madam Usher, I will take the liberty of distributing this map. Could it

Page 14358

1 be please placed on the ELMO. In point of fact, it is the same map, the

2 same number with 1, because this is the same section of the map that we

3 saw yesterday. So it is 1766.1 because it is the same type of document.

4 And I will ask -- also ask Madam Usher to...

5 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel's microphone is not switched on.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Will you push the button of your

7 microphone.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. It is Monday

9 morning.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP10, if you bow you head too much to the ELMO, we

11 have no protective measures on the ELMO. We have on all the cameras but

12 not the ELMO. Apart from that, it takes away the view also from us from

13 the ELMO. Yes.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS DP10 [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

18 A. Good morning to you.

19 Q. Last week you made a point or rather a cross in number " 1" in

20 the western part of this map. And I will be grateful if you do the same

21 thing now, quickly. Take the black marker and indicate with a cross and a

22 number perhaps a finer marker, please.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the witness be given the

24 other marker. Thank you very much.

25 Q. And to indicate with a cross and a number "2," "3," et cetera.

Page 14359

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps zoom in slightly on where the marking

2 has been made.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Exactly, but will you encircle those two figures. Please make a

6 circle around them and tell us what is number "2" and what is number "3."

7 A. Number 2 is Zrak company. Number 3 is the electrical engineering

8 school. At least, that is what it was before the war.

9 Q. Witness, please tell us, what is it that was in the electric

10 engineering faculty?

11 A. A workshop making shells.

12 Q. Can you tell us how did you learn that?

13 A. I gave you names of witnesses last Friday, that is people who

14 lived in Sarajevo at the time.

15 Q. Right. Very well. But that is what we are talking about, isn't

16 it. Thank you.

17 Witness, now, I would like you to be shown another map.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which is P3728. But, Madam

19 Usher, we have made copies of the map, and unfortunately there is a

20 marking on this map, but it is self-explanatory as we shall see. It is

21 our number, 1668 and that tell us about the Prosecution exhibit that I

22 have just indicated 3728, and I would like this map, Madam Registrar,

23 would be placed on the ELMO.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 14360

1 Q. Witness, do you recognise this place which is indicated on the

2 map?

3 A. I do.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel's microphone is off.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So sorry. Thank you.

6 Q. Will you take the pointer and point at the stadium please.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you tell us how tall were the walls

9 supporting the -- around the stadium?

10 A. Ten metres.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like you now to focus --

12 JUDGE ORIE: In order to follow, I did not know the word you used

13 for the -- what was supporting around the stadium. And I thought I would

14 see it in the English translation. But unfortunately, that does not

15 appear in the translation either.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I am so sorry. I

17 am talking about the staircase that is the where the seats are.

18 Q. Witness, will you please focus on point 15 that you can see on the

19 screen. Thank you. Do you see -- do you see that under the

20 diagonal -- up diagonal line right at the number 15 -- no, no, no. I am

21 talking about the upper line, yes. And then proceed to the left. Proceed

22 to the left. Proceed to the left. Now, the line, the line, Witness --

23 no, this is to the right. Thank you. Further, further. Stop. Stop.

24 And at this particular place, Witness, there is a rectangular bar,

25 rectangle which is under the point. Can you tell us what is this

Page 14361

1 rectangle.

2 A. This is an eight-storey building.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I make it precise for the

4 transcript that the witness has pointed at a rectangle indicating the

5 building crossed by the red diagonal which marks one of the limits of the

6 trajectory. Thank you.

7 Q. You have just told us that it as eight storeys. I believe I heard

8 you, but I am not sure if it is in the transcript. Yes. Thank you.

9 Witness, now, from what used to be MUP, will you place the pointer

10 on the other side of the triangle. No, no, no. I am talking about the

11 base of the triangle. Very well.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Now, move to the centre of the base of the triangle.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Right. Thank you. From this point which you have indicated and

16 that is the centre of the -- the middle point of the base of the triangle.

17 According to what you know about the area, is it possible to fire at point

18 number 15 with a firearm? I am talking about direct shots. Yes or no and

19 why?

20 A. It is not possible.

21 Q. Witness, will you tell us why, to your knowledge, that is not

22 possible?

23 A. It is not possible because the stadium is too tall and this

24 building, and where the victim was, there were always screens, busses or

25 carpets or something, so that you could never see people here nor could

Page 14362

1 one move there, that is, this point. This point was quite well protected.

2 You couldn't see anything.

3 Q. Witness, now I would like you to very quickly --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And can we have on the ELMO

5 photograph 3244. This is a photograph. I can give it directly to Madam

6 Registrar, with your permission.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We usually take the original and Madam Registrar

8 will --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

10 Q. The question that I will ask you with regard to the photograph you

11 will see on the screen is as follows: The building that you talked to

12 us -- whether the building that you mentioned is the one that is shown on

13 the photograph, that is the first thing; and then to check the number of

14 floors.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the exhibit P3244 has been marked.

17 Is the marking of any relevance for this witness, and would the

18 Prosecution oppose against showing the nonmarked copy to the witness?

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if we could just be shown the markings

20 on 3244. The copy we have does not have those markings.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no objection to

23 either of those photographs being shown to the witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do you want to show the marked or

25 the unmarked photograph to the witness?

Page 14363

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it is

2 better to have a pristine photograph, if possible.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then do you want to tender it because then we

4 have it give it -- no. So the unmarked version is now shown to the

5 witness.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You have this image to your right. Does either of these building

8 that we can see here tell us what you have just told us?

9 A. Yes. It is this building here.

10 Q. Very well. Is this building as tall as the other one that is in

11 the background facing us?

12 A. I would say it is.

13 Q. Very well. Tell us how many floors do you see? How many storeys

14 are there of the building on the left side of the photograph?

15 A. Eight.

16 Q. Will you please count them.

17 A. Eight storeys and the ground floor, so it is a 9-storey building.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This photograph can be

20 removed. And I would like now the witness to be shown another exhibit

21 which is our Exhibit 1767. It is a map of the incident number 10.

22 Mr. President, I will show this witness a colour map. I know that we

23 worked in black and white, but we know these maps very well by now, I

24 believe.

25 Q. Witness, do you recognise this; yes or no?

Page 14364

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, you have two colours indicating the positions

3 of the lines of the adversaries on this map. The ABiH is light and the

4 ARS is dark, dark green.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For -- to all of us, the ARS

6 cannot be seen well in black and white, but it is north of the dark green.

7 Q. Insofar as the Serb positions are concerned, are these positions

8 correct, from what you know about them?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Witness, why and could you -- why to begin with, and then could

11 you please redraw them, according to what you know.

12 A. They are not because some structures, some streets are shown as

13 they were in the Serb territory and they never were and I can point at

14 them.

15 Q. Witness, I would appreciate it if you could take a marker -- no,

16 you are right, please point with the pointer and then after that, mark

17 your positions.

18 A. So this is -- okay -- right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If we just, yes. So we can follow the witness when

20 pointing at certain streets.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this line here is okay up to

22 this point. And then it goes -- this is the Strojorad building, and it

23 belonged to the opposite side. And the line went down here to the corner

24 of the stadium. Our positions were here. And then it went back towards

25 the police, the MUP club, and then it went up Ozrenicka Street, here it

Page 14365

1 says Ozrenska. And then it followed Ozrenska Street, so the houses were

2 below the road. That is where the trenches to this intersection to

3 Moravska Street and that was the end of the line to which we can see the

4 city of Sarajevo. And here our line drops down because it goes down and

5 we cannot see Sarajevo. And we move on to Djukica Potok or Lukavica,

6 whichever way. That is how the line went. So it goes to this junction

7 towards Ozrenska and Moravska and this is the last point from which we can

8 see Sarajevo. And from here we drop because this is a hill. We go down

9 and move towards Lukavica.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we have at this point, no indication

12 at what time frame the witness is referring to.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please clarify that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 Could you also try to -- well, marking will be made on the map later on, I

15 take it.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you are quite right,

17 Your Honour. In order to save time and this is a portion of the answer

18 for the record, we will ask the witness to confirm. I think he used the

19 term "horizon" in his language when he expressed in B/C/S which I don't

20 see clearly indicated in the transcript. In other words, the ridge line

21 from where it was possible to see and then the part of the line from which

22 it was no longer possible to see.

23 Q. Could you please, Witness, mark once again, precisely the

24 position, the Serb positions along this line.

25 A. So, this is correct, so I don't need to correct this one. I shall

Page 14366

1 proceed from here. This portion here is no longer significant.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness. I should like to ask you to

3 indicate for us 622, 23, on the junction -- yes.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. The point which you have just indicated which corresponds to a

6 junction, are you sure that this point corresponds to the point where your

7 lines ended and why? Why are you sure?

8 A. I spent three years there, after all. That is the last point, as

9 I said, that was important -- that is important in this context. I mean,

10 this is the last point where we had the vision of Sarajevo. Anything

11 coming after this point would be placed from where we were not able to

12 target Sarajevo.

13 Q. Could you indicate with a red circle -- I mean, could you indicate

14 in the red circle which appears on the left side who was deployed in this

15 area at this position throughout the relevant times, I mean throughout the

16 times in respect of which you have some knowledge?

17 A. The Army of BH.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I should like to show you a

19 different photograph now.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] P3228 -- 68.

21 THE INTERPRETER: 3268, interpreter's correction.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will take the example

23 marked as -- we have a copy of this, Your Honours, if necessary.

24 THE REGISTRAR: P3268.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. We will take the one

Page 14367

1 marked with 4324, the ERN number, and then 4325. That will be the order.

2 JUDGE ORIE: These are the marked photographs that's what you

3 wanted to show. Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

5 Q. You have a photograph on your right, Witness. Do you recognise

6 this area?

7 A. I do. This is the Krndeljeva Street junction at Grbavica.

8 Q. Witness, I should like you to ask you to indicate with a pointer

9 the hill that we see in the background, that is the central point.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Yes. Very well. You are now indicating the hill. Thank you.

12 This hill, under whose control was it during the conflict?

13 A. The army of the Federation.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Witness, to your knowledge, the point

15 indicated in blue colours slightly to the right of a lamp post --

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Yes, very well. You are now indicating. This -- on which

18 territory, on whose territory was it, according to what you know?

19 A. This belonged to the federal area.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, there seem to be two circles and it is

22 unclear as to which one the witness was referring to.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was pointing to the circle in the street

24 next to number "2" Mr. Piletta-Zanin, where I had the feeling that you

25 wanted the witness to point to the circle just above the ridge of the

Page 14368

1 hill. Is that correct? That one? Yes. But he was pointing at the other

2 circle when he answered your question.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I didn't see the other circle.

4 Let me try again.

5 Q. Where is the -- this other circle --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, I see it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Just to the --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No, no, no. The witness

9 indicated the right circle, but we can ask him again.

10 Q. Witness, would you please place your pointer on the circle which

11 we find under the horizon, to the right.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Yes. Leave it there, please.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will describe it for the

15 record. Thank you. The witness has indicated with his pointer the upper

16 circle which we found on this photograph in the sky lightly to the left in

17 relation to the lamp post.

18 Q. In response to my question in relation to this you responded this

19 territory was in the hands of the BH Army. My second question in relation

20 to this is during which period of time?

21 A. I arrived there in October 1992 and I stayed there until the end

22 of the war and the line never changed in this area.

23 Q. Very well.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to

25 be shown a different photograph. This one can be taken away. Thank you.

Page 14369

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects. The witness

3 was asked to clarify and simply Mr. Piletta-Zanin restated what the

4 witness testified without putting any question to the witness without

5 seeking a clarification. And also, --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MR. MUNDIS: And also in the Prosecution submission, he

8 mischaracterised that evidence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could you perhaps -- I have

10 to get the right transcript on my screen. Yes. The clarification was,

11 first of all, to see whether there was any misunderstanding as far as the

12 point indicated by the witness. Could we perhaps first have the last

13 photograph again on the ELMO.

14 Witness, could you again point to the circle just right to the

15 lamp post in the -- approximately on the ridge of the hill.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So that everything is clear in this

17 case all of these points, one, two and three, are located in the federal

18 area. The lines, the separation lines held by the Serbs cannot be seen

19 because of this building. So all of this area was in the hands of the

20 Federation. So it is only somewhere behind this building that the lines

21 of the VRS soldiers began.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that the whole of the hill

23 visible on this photograph was in the hands of the BiH. That is your

24 testimony, that is clear.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, of course.

Page 14370

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

2 Mr. Mundis

3 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, Mr. President, when the witness

4 referred to the building, that should be indicated as the large white

5 building towards the left centre of the photograph.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is what he pointed at.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the other one,

9 consequently.

10 Q. Witness, on the basis of the other photograph --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If we can have this one as

12 well, please. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, would you please indicate on this photograph at the large

14 white facade that you can see on the right side of the photograph--

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Yes. Thank you. The witness is now indicating the building with

17 the blind facade.

18 When I said the building with the blind facade, I was meaning -- I

19 meant the one which has no windows on it. This facade, witness, how far

20 does it stretch compared to the street which we can see in the centre of

21 this photograph which is therefore, parallel with respect to the building

22 in question?

23 A. This building is also 9 floors tall, approximately, and it

24 stretches westward from the south. This white side of the building is

25 facing the Serb positions on the hill located towards Vraca.

Page 14371

1 Q. Witness, what we need to know is how far into the street does this

2 facade stretch? In other words, what is the distance between this

3 building and the hill? How far does it go with respect to the street?

4 Are there any other buildings of this height in this area or no?

5 A. This is a very close shot. There are other buildings here as

6 well. This is a close up. If the photograph had been taken from afar,

7 you would have seen other buildings as well.

8 Q. Would you please use your pointer and indicate the -- slightly

9 more to the left please -- a point that we can see on this photograph, a

10 marking that we can see on the photograph.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Yes. That is the one that I was referring to.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is now referring

14 to a blue colour point which indicates approximately the scene of the

15 incident.

16 Q. Witness, the point that you have just indicated, to your

17 knowledge, and in light of the terrain in particular the building on the

18 right side was it accessible to shots coming from the left, from the

19 Serb-held area that you indicated a moment ago?

20 A. Not far from this point here southward, in the vicinity of these

21 buildings, these houses here, there used to be a relatively tall building

22 where the command of the Federation army was located. We used to refer to

23 this place as taxi's club and this was some kind of protection, some kind

24 of shelter.

25 Q. Let me stop you, Witness, my question was a purely technical one.

Page 14372

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 14373

1 From the positions you held and which you have shown us a moment ago, was

2 it technically possible to target directly to scene of the incident that

3 you are now indicating with the pointer? Was it possible to target this

4 spot with direct shots; yes or no and why? In light, of course, of the

5 nature of the terrain in the area, and the placement of buildings in

6 question.

7 A. No, it was not possible because we couldn't see the spot for this

8 building. We could see just the angle of this building. And, again, with

9 respect to Ozrenska Street, our positions were somewhat lower.

10 Q. Are you telling us, Witness, that it was not possible to see the

11 spot and was it possible to target the scene of the incident; yes or no?

12 A. No, it was not possible. Because we would have shot only at this

13 building, at this side of the building.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you spoke about a military facility

15 in the area. Can you describe for us briefly what it was?

16 A. As I have indicated, you cannot properly see the spot on this

17 photograph. But in this area here, there used to be a building before the

18 war which we referred to as taxi driver's club. The location became the

19 command of the people who held the lines -- the positions here in this

20 area in Hrasno. So this rather large building was their command. They

21 had protected themselves very well. You couldn't see the exact location

22 because of the houses around this vicinity.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Witness, I shall stop you because my learned

24 colleague seems to have an objection.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we previously objected on the grounds

Page 14374

1 that is we didn't have clarification with respect to what time frame. We

2 renew that objection with respect to the previous questions but also with

3 respect to this line of questioning specifically.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please take this into

5 consideration when continuing.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has

7 just indicated a location which we were ignorant of and it seems to be a

8 command. We didn't know that. If we establish that there were such

9 locations all over Sarajevo, I know that the Prosecution is opposed to

10 that, and I can simply take note of that. But the witness should indicate

11 to us, nevertheless, what period of time he was talking about.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I was clear enough.

13 Before I started my testimony about this, I indicated that I was deployed

14 ever since October 1992 until the end of the war. So I was referring to

15 the period of time between end of 1992 and 1995. That entire period of

16 time.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether during that entire period of

18 time this building did exist, as you called it, the driver's club. Yes.

19 During the entire period of time.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just

22 ask you, how much time was scheduled for this witness?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Two hours without breaks, I

24 think.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Until now, you took two hours and ten minutes,

Page 14375

1 approximately.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Without interruptions, you

3 mean?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Normal interruptions are included in the time, as you

5 know, and there were no -- there were no interruptions such that would

6 cause us to change the account of time. Perhaps this is the moment to say

7 that the Chamber will be relatively strict on this. We have had some --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... use your time.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will need only a few

11 minutes.

12 Q. Witness, do you know, and this is a general question, if in the

13 city of Sarajevo, according to your knowledge, there was a significant

14 number, yes or no, of targets, military targets? I am referring to the

15 area controlled by the BH Army.

16 A. Of course there were.

17 Q. Can you tell us once again, generally speaking, if these military

18 targets - I am referring to the command posts - were usually located on

19 higher floors or lower floors of the building, according to your

20 knowledge?

21 A. Well, mostly they were located on ground floor, that's where they

22 were safe.

23 Q. Do you know if these military targets were located in the

24 buildings that in the past had been civilian buildings?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14376

1 Q. What type of buildings would that have been, as an example?

2 A. Well I mentioned the taxi driver's club. And then at Marijn Dvor

3 they were located at the former Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at the

4 Holiday Inn hotel. I believe this is enough.

5 Q. What can you tell us about residential buildings in this context?

6 A. As I have indicated, they were usually located in the basements of

7 those buildings or on the ground floor of such buildings, which were still

8 inhabited by civilians, by regular residents. So they could also become

9 victims of potential attacks.

10 Q. Thank you very much. I don't think I have already -- I have asked

11 that question but do you know if there was at Grbavica the protection

12 communication lines which enabled the civilians to move around?

13 A. Are you referring to the protection against sniper shooting? Are

14 you referring to the screens?

15 Q. Yes, yes, if you have used the word "screen," yes, I was referring

16 to that as well.

17 A. Yes, there were many such types of protection, wherever there was

18 a risk of sniper fire.

19 Q. Witness, do you know --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Are you ready to

21 cross-examine the witness, Mr. Mundis?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to

24 interrupt once again. Mr. Mundis, I apologise for that. The record does

25 not indicate properly my question which is important, as most of my

Page 14377

1 questions. I was referring to the person by the name of Dragonov. I

2 asked if you knew what a Dragonov was and the witness said he didn't. On

3 page 29, we see that there is nothing in the transcript.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was listening to the French channel.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And at least I heard Mr. Piletta-Zanin ask what

7 whether the witness knew what a Dragonov was. And although I could not

8 hear his answer in his own language, your answer was "no"?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, no.

10 JUDGE ORIE: For the transcript --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- It is clarified now. Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask first with the

14 assistance of the usher that the witness be shown Defence Exhibit 1767,

15 please.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

17 Q. Witness DP10, in response to a question from the Judge on

18 Wednesday, you told us that your platoon was at different locations along

19 the confrontation line during the time period that you were there, that

20 is, from October 1992 through 1995; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. In the area of Grbavica.

22 Q. And the black line that you have marked on 1767 reflects the

23 confrontation lines that your unit operated along?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would ask you to take a blue thin-lined marker. Can you tell us

Page 14378

1 approximately where on the line your platoon was located in October 1992.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And if you could please place the letter "O" and the numbers "92"

4 next to that dot, please.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. During November 1992, where was your platoon located? If you

7 could place an "N92" next to that, please.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. In December 1992, where was your platoon located?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. During 1993, did your platoon also operate along this

12 confrontation line?

13 A. From 1992 until 1995, the entire period of time. We would spend

14 15 days here, 15 here and then 15 there. We were rotated. Excuse me, my

15 company consisted of three platoons and we took turns all the time until

16 the end of the war.

17 Q. Were you able, as a result of this rotation, were you able to come

18 to an understanding of the unique facets at each point along that

19 confrontation line?

20 A. Our responsibility was always the same.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness come closer to the microphone,

22 please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would the witness -- the microphone of

24 the witness come closer to him or the witness closer to the microphone.

25 Yes.

Page 14379

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our responsibility along all the

2 lines --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like some precision.

5 What does "unique facets" mean precisely. It is not quite clear, at least

6 to the Defence. It is not clear what is meant. Can it be made more

7 precise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis. Yes.

9 MR. MUNDIS:

10 Q. For example, Witness DP10, during November 1992, at the spot that

11 you have marked on the map D1767, can you tell us about any trench lines,

12 fortification lines, or other unique situations concerning the front line

13 at that point during the month of November 1992?

14 A. There were four skyscrapers along the Miljacka. And then you see

15 many buildings are not shown here. Because there were 60.000 inhabitants

16 in Grbavica before the war, but not all these buildings are shown here.

17 On this map there aren't any buildings. So here there are buildings.

18 Q. I am asking you, Witness, please, specifically about the point on

19 the line that you have marked where you platoon was located in November

20 1992.

21 A. This is where a trench was, a fortification.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps there

23 is a problem because I believe to have understood in the Serb

24 interpretation the precise word -- the word that should have been used in

25 the Serbian was "ceta," that is, company. But if he means whether he

Page 14380

1 means company or whether he means something else and the witness explains

2 this perhaps he will be able to answer better. The problem has to do with

3 the Serb -- Serbian interpretation.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We would check that later on. But the question

5 now was about the position where the witness was stationed in November

6 1992. He indicated the spot he marked on the map. Could you answer the

7 question in respect of that part.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] N92 is marked here. We had a trench

9 here. Is there anything else I should say?

10 MR. MUNDIS:

11 Q. DP10, how many men were in your platoon?

12 A. Fifteen.

13 Q. And you testified on Wednesday --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just to resolve this

16 misunderstanding, perhaps the witness should be asked whether he was the

17 commander of a platoon or of a company, in view of his answers so far, to

18 avoid creating a misunderstanding.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Were you a platoon commander or were you a company

20 commander at that time?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked that question on Friday

22 and I said I was a platoon commander.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although it was not on Friday. That is my

24 recollection as well.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

Page 14381

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the holidays. Before the

2 holidays.

3 MR. MUNDIS:

4 Q. Witness DP10, did you remain a platoon commander from October 1992

5 through the end of 1995?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. During that entire time period, did your platoon remain at a

8 strength of approximately 15 men?

9 A. Well, it depends. Some would leave; some would flee the war; some

10 come. So it was also more or less 15 people plus/minus. Sometimes there

11 were 15; sometimes there were 14. You know.

12 Q. You always testified on Wednesday that you didn't hold any

13 particular rank, other than being the functional title of platoon

14 commander; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. And that remained the case throughout the period from 1992 through

17 1995?

18 A. It was.

19 Q. And you told us a few moments ago that there were three platoons

20 in you company; is that correct?

21 A. It is, yes.

22 Q. Each of these platoons also had approximately 15 men, give or

23 take, during the time period in question?

24 A. More or less.

25 Q. Other than these three platoons, did the company that you were

Page 14382

1 assigned to have any other units?

2 A. With a part of infantry units, I don't know whether I get -- but I

3 was with the mechanised armoured battalion, which means I had APCs at my

4 disposal, and I ran them.

5 Q. How many APCs did you or did you as the platoon commander have

6 control over during this period?

7 A. Three. Three -- I am talking about my platoon -- three APCs.

8 That is company nine, the company had nine.

9 Q. Did these three APCs remain fully operational during the time

10 period from 1992 through 1995?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. During the time periods that your platoon was along the

13 confrontation line did you and your platoon soldiers remain in the APCs or

14 did you assume positions in buildings or trenches?

15 A. Next to the APCs, our chief role was to support infantry lines

16 pulling out the wounded, the killed, and so on and so forth.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that we go into closed

18 session for a few questions, please.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into closed session. Private session

20 and closed session is the same in this courtroom, so both of them.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 14383

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21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ORIE: It is confirmed on my screen. Please proceed,

24 Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS:

Page 14386

1 Q. Witness DP10, what was the approximate length along the

2 confrontation line that your platoon was responsible for at any given

3 time?

4 A. 2.000 metres.

5 Q. Let me see if I understand you correctly, Witness. The 15 men in

6 your platoon were responsible for 2.000 metres along the length of the

7 confrontation line?

8 A. I said we supported the lines. We had infantry lines, that is

9 infantry soldiers who were in the trenches. And we were next to the APCs

10 and in case of the attack of the enemy units we would support then. In

11 case of fatalities, we reacted then, our wounded. So we were not strictly

12 tied to the trenches. At the invitation of our comrades from - what do

13 you call it - the lines, those who were on the lines, it was only then

14 that we would start action. We were not strictly tied to the trench on

15 the front line. And others provided the guard service.

16 Q. Witness, you testified on Wednesday about instructions from your

17 superiors not to open fire on civilians. Do you remember that?

18 A. Of course, I remember it.

19 Q. And you testified that you were given those instructions on a

20 daily basis; is that correct?

21 A. Every day.

22 Q. How would you characterise the chain of command within from your

23 brigade commander down to yourself as the platoon commander?

24 A. From my post using telephone, but it wasn't far. So I could also

25 walk there. So first I would turn to my immediate commander who was the

Page 14387

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 14388

1 company commander and then to the battalion commander and then on from

2 brigade and then on to the General Staff, that is, from the lower echelons

3 to the upper. That is how we received our orders and that is how we

4 reported about the tasks accomplished.

5 Q. Would you characterise the chain of command as one that was very

6 ridged or was there a great degree of latitude given to you as a platoon

7 commander to interpret the orders that you received?

8 A. Our orders were always - and I as a platoon commander - to be

9 strict, to take care that the soldiers do not wander around the lines or

10 do something illicit, not to fire unnecessarily, not to fire at what they

11 should not fire at. We had a very correct and very strict command. And a

12 very disciplined one.

13 Q. When you say disciplined, do I assume from that that when you gave

14 an order to your platoon that that order would be carried out?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness DP10, I see you nodding but your answer would

16 be?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The previous one?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I was too early. But I saw you nodding in

19 the affirmative, which is difficult for the interpreters to translate. I

20 am not sure whether the question as a whole was already translated to you.

21 So the last question was whether Mr. Mundis can assume that when you gave

22 an order to your platoon, that the order would be carried out?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not issue any orders on my

24 own account. I always had to consult with my superiors. So that I was

25 never the one who issued such orders except in case of an attack of the

Page 14389

1 Bosniak side. Then, of course, I defended myself with all the means at my

2 disposal.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The question was: When you gave an order -- whether

4 you received it from someone else is a different question, but when you

5 gave an order whether your men would carry out that order?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well I was, I commanded and they

7 were subordinated to me. They had to do it

8 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether they did.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, they did.

10 MR. MUNDIS:

11 Q. Similarly, Witness DP10, when you received an order from your

12 company commander, you carried out that order; is that correct?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. And the company commander carried out the orders of the battalion

15 commander; is that right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. And the battalion commander carried out the orders of the brigade

18 commander?

19 A. Yes. All the way up, that's right.

20 Q. And to take it to its logical conclusion, the brigade commander

21 followed the orders of the corps commander; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Witness, during the time period from September --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 14390

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,

2 the Defence objects to this line of questioning. Because it is highly

3 subtle. You asked a question because you wanted to know if the soldiers

4 of the witness's platoon obeyed his orders. And now one proceeds with the

5 same kind of questions. But this witness has no way of knowing whether a

6 colonel or who was responsible for the brigade obeyed the orders of his

7 superior or not. He can only make conjectures, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Whether he could know or not is just as hypothetical

9 as you suggest the answers of the witness are. On the other hand,

10 Mr. Mundis, of course, the Chamber would certainly be assisted if we would

11 have the source of knowledge of the witness in this respect.

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, your objection contains comments as well. If

13 you are objecting, and if you think you couldn't do it without commenting

14 on the answer of the witness you should suggest to the Chamber that we

15 find another solution and we will certainly follow you. But I hope you

16 will keep this in mind.

17 Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Witness DP10, during the time that you were a platoon commander

20 from September 1992 through August 1994, did you ever have an occasion to

21 report any of your platoon members for failure to follow an order?

22 A. I didn't have any such cases.

23 Q. Witness DP10, in the period from September 1992 through August of

24 1994, are you aware of any incidents where any members of your company

25 were reported or disciplined for failing to follow an order?

Page 14391

1 A. There were no such instances. No, no.

2 Q. DP10, in the period from September 1992 through August 1994, were

3 you aware of any instances where anyone in your battalion was disciplined

4 or reported for failing to follow an order?

5 A. I am not aware of that.

6 Q. Witness, are you aware of anyone in your brigade being disciplined

7 or reported for failing to follow an order during the period September

8 1992 through August 1994?

9 A. No.

10 Q. During the same period, that is, September 1992 through August

11 1994, are you aware of anyone in the corps being disciplined for failing

12 to follow an order?

13 A. I wasn't that well informed, believe me.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I am about to move into another line

15 of questioning and perhaps this would be a good time for a break.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we will perhaps have a break.

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just address you on one issue just in

18 order to give you some guidance. The objection you just made could have

19 been made also in wording such as that you would object and that you would

20 have said that it would have been proper to clarify the source of

21 knowledge of the witness in respect of the last two or three questions.

22 That would have been the proper way of doing it. It would have been

23 perfectly clear, both to the Chamber and to the Prosecution, and it gives

24 no comment on the answers. Because part of your objection was what the

25 witness knew or did not know, and that is just speculative, although

Page 14392

1 perhaps probable, but I think you should not comment in such a way on the

2 answers of the witness while being cross-examined by the Prosecution.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, you may proceed.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President, I would that the witness be

9 shown the map which has been marked D1767, please.

10 Q. Witness, I would like you, if you are able to do so, on the map

11 that is before you, to mark please the location of your brigade's

12 headquarters using a blue pen.

13 A. You cannot see it here. It is outside the map. I cannot find it

14 here.

15 Q. Did you say earlier this morning that on occasion you were able to

16 walk to your brigade headquarters from the confrontation line?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Taking the confrontation line at the point where it intersects the

19 MUP building, do you see that on the map?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you please place a blue X on that location.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Can you please draw an arrow in the general direction of your

24 brigade headquarters from that blue X.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 14393

1 Q. And approximately how far from the blue X was it to your brigade

2 headquarters?

3 A. 300 metres.

4 Q. Do you recall the address or the location of which building your

5 brigade headquarters was located in?

6 A. It was at the junction with Zagrebacka Street, where Bana Surbata

7 Street meets Zagrebacka Street and the location was called Aleksandrija.

8 It was a restaurant which was located in this building which was a

9 high-rise building.

10 Q. Do you see the location on map D1767 where your battalion

11 headquarters were located.

12 A. You cannot see it on this map. My battalion command was located

13 at Petrovacka Street in the middle of Bana Surbata Street as you climb

14 down from Vraca.

15 Q. Could you please draw an arrow again from the blue X in the

16 direction of your battalion headquarters.

17 A. That's the direction where the command was located. And the

18 company command was located here, whereas the battalion command was

19 located in this area.

20 Q. Okay, the --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, would it assist to use map D1766?

22 MR. MUNDIS: We can try that, Mr. President. If the witness can

23 be shown D1766.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The company command was located here

25 number one. The battalion command or the headquarters was located here.

Page 14394

1 MR. MUNDIS:

2 Q. And you have marked that with a number "2" for the battalion

3 headquarters?

4 A. Company headquarters number one, and battalion headquarters number

5 two. So this here is the junction with Zagrebacka Street where the

6 company had orders where this used to be Petrovacka Street and this is

7 where battalion headquarters were located and this street here going down

8 is Bana Surbata.

9 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid whatever confusion there is

10 already, another number one on the map which is next to a cross which is

11 Kranjceviceva, which is north of the river Miljacka.

12 MR. MUNDIS:

13 Q. Witness, do you see on this map where the brigade, where your

14 brigade headquarters was located?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to be

16 sure that there will be no confusion later on, a blue colour pen I think

17 would be necessary.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness -- I looked when the pen was

19 given to him. It had the appearance of blue. Is that correct? Yes.

20 Blue is used, but it might not be that clear on the ELMO scree.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. MUNDIS:

23 Q. Again, Witness DP10, if you see on this map before you, D1766, the

24 location where your brigade's headquarters was located, could you please

25 mark that with a circle and a number "3" using the blue pen.

Page 14395

1 A. You cannot see the brigade's headquarters. It was located in

2 Lukavica.

3 Q. That's fine, Witness, if it is not on the map.

4 A. Here, approximately, in this area, at Lukavica.

5 Q. Could you please mark that with a circle and the number "3" using

6 the blue pen.

7 A. This is just an approximation. I would need some more space here

8 in this direction.

9 Q. That's fine, Witness. Was the brigade headquarters located in the

10 same building at Lukavica Barracks as the corps headquarters?

11 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the witness.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I heard -- what I heard was "Na," is that correct?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

14 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the

15 photograph marked P3244, the photo bearing the number "1A". And while

16 that is being done --

17 Q. Witness, was the brigade headquarters located at the Lukavica

18 Barracks throughout the period of September 1992 through August 1994?

19 A. Yes. Not at the barracks, but behind the barracks. But it was

20 part of the barracks, yes.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has just

22 answered.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was not the testimony of the witness that it

24 was in the barracks, but just that it was Lukavica, but he corrected it

25 now. Please proceed.

Page 14396

1 THE REGISTRAR: Can I have a clarification, please on the exhibit

2 number.

3 MR. MUNDIS: P3244.

4 THE REGISTRAR: The marked or the unmarked?

5 MR. MUNDIS: The unmarked, please. Also if Madam Registrar could

6 provide the Prosecution with P3278 -- sorry -- 3728, the large bundle of

7 maps, that would be very helpful, please.

8 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look immediately to the right of the

9 individual standing in the centre of this photograph. Do you see a

10 structure just above his stomach in that photograph? Can you please point

11 to what I am referring to with the pointer.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. That is the stadium; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. The stands of the stadium.

15 Q. And immediately above that and slightly to the left, right in

16 front of that gentleman's chest, you can see the lights of the stadium; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Witness, in the centre of that photograph, there is a small tree.

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And behind the tree what appears to be a large white building. Do

23 you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That building is the MUP building, is it not?

Page 14397

1 A. Correct.

2 MR. MUNDIS: That photograph can be returned to the Registrar and

3 if I can ask that the witness be shown -- excuse me -- P3268, the

4 photograph marked number "2."

5 Q. Witness, you testified earlier about this intersection. Do you

6 recall what intersection that is depicted in this photograph?

7 A. Kranjceviceva Street.

8 Q. This would be the view that you would have had from the SRK lines

9 between September 1992 and August 1994, is that correct?

10 A. This is where the defence line of the Bosniak army were located

11 and we were up there, here, in the hills. The Serb forces were deployed

12 on the hill.

13 Q. Could you see this intersection from your location, Witness?

14 A. No, we couldn't. Here in the vicinity was the headquarters of the

15 Bosniak units and the second reason -- I mean, as I said, this was the

16 first line of the Bosniak forces. And this whole street was covered with

17 screens, buses and other vehicles which completely obstructed the view

18 from our side of this junction.

19 Q. Witness, is it your testimony that you could or could not see this

20 junction from the location where your platoon was located from September

21 1992 through August 1994?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question

23 needs more precision because the witness has indicated that his platoon

24 would be rotated every two weeks, and that it was deployed along a 2.000

25 metre long line. I think that my colleague should be more precise in his

Page 14398

1 question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The positions are not that clear if the platoon

3 covered two kilometres of confrontation line, Mr. Mundis. Would you --

4 MR. MUNDIS: I will withdraw that question, Mr. President, and

5 move on.

6 Q. Witness, at any time between September 1992 and August 1994, did

7 you conduct any type of reconnaissance mission into the territory

8 controlled by the Federation?

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. So when you testified earlier today that there were ABiH

11 headquarters positions located in the ground floors of buildings, you did

12 not have any first-hand knowledge of that situation, did you?

13 A. As I indicated, we learned this from the people who had left

14 Sarajevo during the war, Croats and Serbs who had managed to leave the

15 town. The bridge, these people could also testify to these circumstances.

16 They were in the relevant area in 1992 and 1993, and managed to escape

17 across these lines, some of which were held by the HVO and reached our

18 area, and remained later on with our army.

19 Q. But the fact is that you personally did not see any of these

20 headquarters locations; isn't that correct?

21 A. I saw them from -- from the air, from bird's eye view. I don't

22 know how to put it.

23 Q. You saw these locations from positions controlled by the SRK

24 forces?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14399

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your leave, Mr. Ierace has a few

2 questions for the witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might I have access to

5 Exhibit P3728. Just while that is being done --

6 THE REGISTRAR: I have it here, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: All right. Thank you. That can be returned.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

9 Q. Sir, you marked on a map the forward positions, as I understand

10 it, of the Sarajevo Brigade during the time that you served in that

11 brigade; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In what month in what year did you commence to serve in that

14 brigade?

15 A. On the 6th of October, 1992.

16 Q. On the map --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like us

18 to be as precise as possible. The witness did not indicate on the map the

19 positions of the Sarajevo Brigade. What he indicated was the position

20 that he knew about concerning his battalion. He even stopped at one point

21 and he said that, beyond this point, this is not significant, this is not

22 important. I would like us to -- all to bear this in mind for all future

23 references.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although the witness answered the question, I

25 take it that he understood that it related to his earlier answers. But

Page 14400

1 the next question was not related any more to confrontation lines, so

2 please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. On that map you indicated that the forward positions included one

5 corner of the football stadium; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Where was the -- where were the forward positions of the army of

8 the Presidency in relation to the stadium?

9 A. From the Loris building through the side stadium. There is the

10 main stadium and the auxiliary playground all the way to Mrkevic Street

11 and further on towards Vraca.

12 Q. The stadium was the subject of a number of --

13 A. The auxiliary playground, I mean.

14 Q. On the territory of the stadium, there were a number of battles;

15 is that correct?

16 A. Well, the battles were almost a daily occurrence. And there would

17 be shooting almost every day in this area.

18 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that at various times there were

19 attempts by one side or the other to control the territory of the stadium.

20 A. Yes, of course. The federal soldiers attacked our positions

21 almost on a daily basis. But they wanted to get hold of our positions.

22 Q. I suggest to you that up until August 1994, the most of the

23 stadium that was ever held by the army of the Presidency was one corner.

24 A. That one corner was held by the VRS army. The remainder of the

25 area was a kind of no-man's land. Their line, including the trenches, ran

Page 14401

1 across the auxiliary pitch, together with the lawn. So this was the area

2 between the Muslim soldiers and the Serb soldiers.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown Defence

4 Exhibit 1767, and could that please be placed on the ELMO so that we can

5 see the stadium.

6 Q. Witness, would you please point to the auxiliary pitch.

7 A. You can see it here. This is where the line went, and this is

8 where the pitch is located. And it went right across the pitch.

9 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, the witness points

10 to an area on the map on which is written "athletic field" to the left of

11 the stadium.

12 Q. Sir, do you see a light green line that passes through the

13 athletic's field on the map, and perhaps you could point to it.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that that was the forward position of the

16 army of the Presidency at that point?

17 A. Yes, I fully agree with you.

18 Q. Now --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you to invite the witness to

20 mark the athletic field. Because on our copies, you can't read these

21 words so we will have difficulties in finding it at a later stage.

22 MR. IERACE:

23 Q. Would you please take a fine point blue pen and place a circle

24 around the athletics field, what you called the auxiliary pitch?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 14402

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 14403

1 Q. Thank you. I think you have drawn a square but that is okay.

2 Now, when were you first approached by anyone from the team representing

3 the accused, be it an investigator or a lawyer or anyone else who you

4 understood to be a representative of that team or member of that team?

5 A. Two days prior to my departure to The Hague.

6 Q. You had no contact before then with any member of the Defence

7 team; is that the case?

8 A. No, never. I didn't know those people.

9 Q. Are you saying that the first contact was within the last two

10 weeks?

11 A. I think I can be precise. It was on the 10th of this month, on

12 the 10th of October.

13 Q. On the 10th of October --

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Do you have any idea how it is that your name appeared -- and I

16 will not repeat your name, I will not state it -- that your name appeared

17 on a list of witnesses to be called by the Defence, that list dating from

18 August? Do you know how that could be?

19 A. Well, I know Mr. Radovic, he was the one who contacted me, Mr.

20 Vojo Radovic.

21 Q. But no one asked you if you would be a witness in this case at any

22 stage before the 10th of October; is that correct?

23 A. Mr. Vojo Radovic contacted me and since he knew which unit I

24 belonged to, we knew each other from before and he knew that I would be in

25 a position to testify about these things. I had seen Vojo Radovic prior

Page 14404

1 to the 10th of October.

2 Q. When did Mr. Vojo Radovic first contact you in relation to this

3 trial?

4 A. Sometime in midsummer. I don't remember the date. This summer, I

5 mean.

6 Q. When you say "sometime in midsummer" could it have been earlier

7 than June 2002?

8 A. Well, thereabouts. June, I believe.

9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Are there any questions

11 arising from the cross-examination?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If the

13 Prosecution has no further questions, then we would like to ask some.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we first --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- Give an opportunity to the Judges to ask

17 additional questions so that if this would --

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you start. If the questions of the Judges

20 would raise any new issue, then of course an opportunity will be given to

21 you.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you were asked about instructions that

24 you received or orders that you received and also whether you reported to

25 the company commander, then the battalion commander, the brigade commander

Page 14405

1 and so on and so forth. Do you remember that?

2 A. Of course I did that.

3 Q. Right. Now, my question with regard to the instructions that you

4 received not to target civilians, is it correct that it went through the

5 same chain of command?

6 A. Yes, the same. The same from the company commander up the ladder.

7 Q. A moment ago you mentioned the name of the company commander. Am

8 I to understand that therefore, the orders not to target civilians went

9 straight up in a straight line and therefore would be traced to

10 General Galic?

11 A. Of course.

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like you to be shown now a map -- no,

13 I think it is still on the screen.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. The other map, please.

15 The one that we saw a while ago relating to incident number 15 with the

16 red triangle marked.

17 Mr. President, the series of questions that I will ask now arise

18 from questions asked by the Prosecution regarding the presence of MUP.

19 And I would like to have a map or rather a liner to this witness, if

20 possible. If not, we shall try to make do with something.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You want a liner -- it is not quite clear to me --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] A ruler. A ruler, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to have one specific with centimetres

25 on it or --

Page 14406

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Something

2 to enable the witness to draw a straight line. Perhaps a notebook or

3 something hard enough.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can this do?

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the pointer could not do because that is

6 not straight. But if the back of the --

7 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel's microphone is off.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this will do. May I move

9 on, Mr. President?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, I want you to do the following: You identified point 15

13 on the map. And I would like you now to draw a straight line - wait,

14 wait, wait - in the direction to the triangle base, but leaving outside

15 the first building. No. No. Put this piece of cardboard down. No, no,

16 no, no.

17 I want us to see the upper part of the triangle.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. That's it. Perfect. Perfect. Now, draw a line from this

20 point -- no, wait. Wait. As close as possible to the lower left angle,

21 more down, down, further down.

22 Witness -- no, wait. No. Witness, move the ruler to point 15.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. That's it. Now, wait to hear what I want you to do. So draw a

25 line leaving the building that we talked about outside, as close to the

Page 14407

1 building as possible, but without going through the building. Do you

2 understand what I mean? No, no, no. And a little bit more. Right.

3 Stop.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Now, draw the -- no. I know that it is not --

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. There.

8 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please. I think the witness has the blue

9 pen in his hands. He should have had black pen in his hands now.

10 Mr. DP10, whenever you do on the request of the Defence you do it with the

11 black pen. The blue pen is for the Prosecution.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Now, draw this line, please.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Go on, go on. Thank you. Thank you. Witness, will you indicate

16 the MUP building, the police building on the map?

17 A. [Indicates]

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness does it and

19 indicates a larger building to the right and outside of the triangle and

20 the line which he has just drawn.

21 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move on to another question.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We do not need this map any

23 more for the time being. We shall not be needing this map for the time

24 being.

25 Q. You told us with regard to the brigade that its headquarters was

Page 14408

1 not at the same place or rather "behind in Lukavica." What did you mean

2 "behind in Lukavica"? Will you tell us where exactly?

3 A. Well, it is in point of fact is the Serb cemetery and there were

4 some warehouses behind it belonging to the former barracks. You get what

5 I mean? And that is where our headquarters was in, where the commander

6 was Veljko Stojanovic.

7 Q. Could it be confused with what one calls the Lukavica Barracks

8 where the corps command was or was it at a different place?

9 A. I don't know where the corps command was, believe me.

10 Q. Very well. But your brigade's place, were there other -- were

11 there any other units there, or your brigade alone?

12 A. Only the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to ask you my last or my

14 last but one question rather. We talked about orders which you issued,

15 and I would like you to listen to me very carefully, Witness.

16 Is it technically possible, despite an order that you've issued,

17 for somebody to fail to carry it out or to execute it badly, without your

18 knowledge; yes or no?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And how can you exclude such a possibility, so emphatically, and

21 when I say "emphatically," I mean 100 per cent?

22 A. Because these are obedient troops, soldiers who explicitly listen

23 to the orders received from their superiors and never fail to execute

24 them. And they were told not to target civilians and they merely targeted

25 the sources of fire. And everybody complied with this.

Page 14409

1 Q. Very well. Good. You were asked about possible proceedings,

2 disciplinary proceedings, responsibility, and your answer was -- your

3 answer was and you were asked -- and your answer was, you answered that,

4 and when you answered you spoke generally. So my question is as follows:

5 During your military service, how many soldiers did you come to know

6 personally that you could talk about?

7 A. Well, that is a very broad question. But those men who were in

8 my -- and me, those who had to do with my company, I wouldn't say that

9 more than a hundred or so soldiers passed through that company, those who

10 had to do with my combat position.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. You said that the

16 commander of the brigade reported to Galic; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Is that a first-hand knowledge or is it

19 because of the chain of command or is it because of the place in which the

20 headquarters was located?

21 A. It is only an assumption, because this was this command, platoon

22 commander, company commander, and so on and so forth. So that is an

23 assumption that I am making because that is how things should be or should

24 have been.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Because of the chain of command?

Page 14410

1 A. Well, yes. That's how things were.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No more questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for

4 you.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 [Interpretation] I would like to seek a clarification if I may

7 call it that, please. If I understood you well, you said that your unit,

8 your platoon, the platoon under your command, was behind the front line,

9 was in the rear of the front line. Is that what you said?

10 A. Yes, behind the front line.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So I have understood your

12 meaning right. And my second question is -- and it has to do with finding

13 out whether, if you were behind the front line, where could you really

14 confirm what or claim what one could see from the Serb lines, from the

15 Serb front lines? Could you really claim what one could see from the

16 front line regarding the other side of the city from where you were, if I

17 understand you right? Because after all, you were further away -- you had

18 a line of two kilometres, you moved up and down and you were asked

19 about -- you were asked these things and you said "yes, one could or

20 couldn't see from this particular place or from some other place." But

21 your position behind those lines, can you, and how can you really claim

22 that from a particular point one could see or one couldn't see a

23 particular area from the positions that you held? Could you please

24 clarify this point for me.

25 A. Well, that is not an assumption. For instance, the front line was

Page 14411

1 below Ozrenska Street, and I was on its other side. So the -- I was about

2 10 metres away from the trench on the front lines, that means I could see

3 everything that a man on the front line could see. And my field of vision

4 I could follow with my eyes, the same things that the man in the trench

5 could follow with his eyes. So that means I saw everything that I told

6 you about.

7 Excuse me. We were behind the front line only because we had our

8 APC because the APC could not be in the trench.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, well exactly. That is what

10 I understood. So you cannot really affirm as to the field of vision of

11 the soldiers who were in front of you because you were behind them; isn't

12 it?

13 A. I was 10 metres behind them, I said that. But I had the same

14 field of vision in front of me. I could see the same things as they

15 could.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well. May I

18 first ask the assistance of Madam Registrar. I would like to show one of

19 the photographs, but I have not got the right number in my mind. That is

20 the photograph looking down on the red roofs. Yes.

21 Madam Registrar, that would be number?

22 THE REGISTRAR: P3268, bearing ERN 4325.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be put on the ELMO, please.

24 Mr. DP10, you have told us when I did understand you correctly,

25 that you could not see the intersection shown on this photograph because

Page 14412

1 the whole street was covered with screens, buses and other vehicles. Is

2 that is correct, that the view was obstructed? How do you know that?

3 A. I saw it. And secondly, this position, the positions of our

4 troops this is deep -- the depth of the defence zone were some soldiers.

5 Now, as this building was here looking from where I am to the right, this

6 building and this building also provided a shield and additionally there

7 were also those screens, trams and buses. So we were to the right. And

8 this here is a street down the depth of the Muslim territory. This is way

9 back deep in their territory.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. So from where you were, and

11 do you mean now the trenches or 10 metres behind the trenches that you

12 could observe that the view was taken by screens, buses, other vehicles;

13 is that correct?

14 A. From 10 metres behind. But I mean, the soldier in the trenches

15 saw [Realtime transcript read in error "it was"] the same thing that I

16 did. It was impossible. There were no civilians [Realtime transcript

17 read in error "soldiers"] at all. It was the front line. Civilians

18 couldn't move about there.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You couldn't see the intersection, you couldn't see

20 the crossroads because of the obstruction put in place down there?

21 A. That's right, behind these obstacles I couldn't see anything. I

22 couldn't see any movement behind the obstacles because it was very well

23 shielded.

24 JUDGE ORIE: There were no holes in between these shields? There

25 were no parts that were not properly protected?

Page 14413

1 A. They were very strict about it. Everything was protected so that

2 we couldn't see anything. I am telling you their command was there, so

3 they were very careful.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Were they ever moved, these screens or buses or would

5 they stay on the same place all the time?

6 A. Well, unless the wind did something, but they would redo it. For

7 instance, something falls down, but they put it up again so that we

8 couldn't really ever see that intersection.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The view was always obstructed, as far as I

10 understand. Could perhaps the other photograph --

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: There might be a problem with the transcript. I

13 wasn't --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: One of your answers -- I am just trying to see

16 whether it is correct in the transcript. One of your answers earlier was

17 "the soldier on the trenches, it was the same thing that I did. It was

18 impossible. There were no soldiers at all. It was the front line.

19 Soldiers couldn't move about there."

20 Did you intend to say that civilians couldn't move about there? I

21 think that is what I -- yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Civilians. Civilians.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript should be corrected then in page 54,

24 line 25. I could now perhaps the -- may I just look at -- yes.

25 Witness, would you agree with me that the intersection shown on

Page 14414

1 this photograph was -- depicts the same intersection as we saw on the

2 previous photograph, but then from the other direction?

3 A. I think -- yes, it is this white building. The same intersection.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You just told us that you could not see this

5 intersection from your position because it was shielded off by buses, et

6 cetera, et cetera. Could you tell us where we can see your position, from

7 where you could see that buses were taking the view of this intersection?

8 I mean, from where would you look at it?

9 A. From here.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is pointing at the edge of the ridge of

11 the hill just to the right-hand side of the white high-rise building in

12 the middle left of the photograph.

13 Witness, would that mean that we could see on this picture that

14 position that you held on the hill?

15 A. Here where I keep the pointer, that was the end of our positions

16 of our line. Over here where all the defence line of the Bosniak army.

17 So this here where the last point from where we could see, say, this

18 intersection.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So there was a point from that hill from where you

20 could see that intersection from the Serbian-held positions -- position, I

21 must say, in the single.

22 A. Partly.

23 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "partly"?

24 A. Well, I am saying since our trench was right there, we could see a

25 part of it, but all these, there were screens and there were no civilians

Page 14415

1 moving because this was literally the front line of the Bosniak army. The

2 civilians never moved around there.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean on the intersection at the bottom of the

4 photograph or at the front line in the hills, that the civilians couldn't

5 move there?

6 A. Down there, this is where the screens were. We could not see the

7 upper positions because of the houses. The area is very densely

8 populated. We couldn't see it. But whatever we were able to see from our

9 positions was actually sheltered by the screens.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Including the crossroads depicted on the bottom

11 of this photograph?

12 A. Yes, correct.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. IERACE: I would seek your leave to ask some questions arising

17 out of two answers given in response to questions from the Bench. Those

18 answers were in effect that civilians were not in the area seen in the

19 photograph because it was the front line.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was at least an issue that came up. But

21 perhaps for the order -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any question that

22 arises from the question of the Bench that you would like to put to the

23 witness?

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you have finished with your

25 questions, yes.

Page 14416

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 Further re-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, let us focus on this photograph for a

4 minute. When you indicated the building located on the left, this one

5 here, you also showed us where your trenches were. Did you indicate to us

6 precisely what we are able to see on the photograph or something that was

7 further away behind these buildings? That is my first question.

8 A. This photograph was taken after the war. The picture was totally

9 different during the war. The whole of this area was screened with

10 various types of protection objects. So from the venture point from where

11 we were, from where we would see the junctions the screens were just --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I would like the witness to answer -- to finish his

13 answer to that question.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You said, "so from the venture point from where we

16 were, from where we would see the junction, the screens were," and then

17 please continue.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, it was not possible for us,

19 nor was for any need for us to open fire at this junction. We couldn't

20 see anyone here.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23 Q. My question was as follows: Witness, with your pointer could you

24 indicate to us the corner of the building that you told us about, more to

25 the left -- very well. Please remain here with your pointer.

Page 14417

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Page 14418

1 When you said that from -- when you talked about what you could

2 see from this point, were you precise in describing this area or were your

3 trenches located further away, further behind this building?

4 A. I said that the last point -- I mean our trenches -- where our

5 trenches were coincided with the corner of this building. As I said, I

6 couldn't directly target this location. And whatever small portion was

7 visible to us, it was covered with screens. We couldn't see the area

8 because of the corner of this building.

9 Q. Thank you. You told us a moment ago that you did not have an

10 angle necessary for opening fire.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You told us also that the battles were conducted on a daily basis.

13 Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Is it possible that -- would it have been possible for the bullets

16 ricocheting from these battles to target any passing individuals here?

17 A. Yes, it is possible.

18 Q. One more question which is not a direct one, but you will tell me

19 whether I am allowed to ask it or not.

20 From your positions, Witness, from where you were, were you able

21 to see the area, whatever it is, when it was covered with fog?

22 A. No. Because of the distance, it is a long distance after all, and

23 the fog in Sarajevo is usually very thick.

24 Q. And in those circumstances, you wouldn't be able -- you were not

25 able to see anything whatsoever?

Page 14419

1 A. Correct.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That concludes my examination,

3 Mr. President, thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Further cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

7 Q. Sir, you said a few minutes ago that it was not possible to fire

8 into that area, and there was no need to open fire because you could not

9 see that area because of the barricades; is that correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. If there had not been barricades --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection. I

13 object because the testimony of the witness, as you can see above in the

14 transcript, is that they could not open fire because of the building that

15 he had indicated a moment ago, and not only because of the barricades. If

16 we are talking about the barricades, then one should also include the

17 building. That was the testimony given by the witness.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building is also considered a

19 barricade.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, again, in your objection there is

21 a lot of comment, there is the interpretation of the answers. I could

22 point to other answers that might not concur with your interpretation of

23 what the answers were. I may remind you that I asked you before that in

24 your objections you should not use such words as to guide the witness to

25 what answer you would like him to give.

Page 14420

1 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

2 MR. IERACE:

3 Q. So I take it that the barricades were quite effective in reducing

4 the fire from your side of the front lines towards those areas?

5 A. Of course.

6 Q. You also said that there were no civilians in that area because it

7 was effectively so close to the front line. How do you know that?

8 A. I didn't see any. I saw no civilians there.

9 Q. Were you able to distinguish between civilians and soldiers from

10 your area of the front line overlooking the area in the photograph?

11 A. All soldiers wear uniforms and moved about in the vicinity of the

12 trenches. And we had a pretty good idea as to where the trenches were.

13 Nobody moved around without those green uniforms. Nobody wore civilian

14 clothes, at least I didn't see anyone.

15 Q. And I take it that you used binoculars to assist you in detecting

16 movement by people in that area; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, so we were in a better position to distinguish between

18 civilians and soldiers.

19 Q. Sir, you say that there were no civilians -- you know there were

20 no civilians in that area because you never saw any. Is that throughout

21 the entire period that you were in the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, in relation

22 to that intersection, that area of the intersection that we see in the

23 photograph?

24 A. Believe it or not, I myself never saw a civilian throughout the

25 war. They never moved around. They were somehow protected. They never

Page 14421

1 ventured all the way to the forward lines. We, after all, didn't allow

2 our civilians to approach our front lines, so that was the case with the

3 other side I suppose. I never saw a civilian there.

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt. There seems to be great

5 confusion. When you say that you never saw civilians, you are referring

6 several times to areas close to front line trenches. These questions were

7 put to you several times in respect to the intersection and the obstacles,

8 at least the obstacles that would take your view from this area.

9 When you say that you never saw civilians, would that include the

10 area of, let me say, the street, where you see these cars driving in this

11 intersection, or would it be just about the lines held by the BiH military

12 which, as far as I understand, you told us that were further up the hill?

13 If you are talking about never having seen civilians, would that answer be

14 limited to close to these front lines, or would that also be a valid

15 answer to the street, intersection, as you see it on this photograph?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At all main junctions in the city,

17 on the other bank of the Miljacka river which was even as far as 2.000

18 metres away from our lines as the crow flies, wherever it was possible --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's just concentrate on this part of the town,

20 although I know it is not far from the Miljacka river, but it still is

21 some distance. You would say, you never saw any civilians moving around

22 this intersection, this main street. Did you ever see soldiers there?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not in the trenches. It

24 was difficult to see that. Everybody was trying to hide or flee, so it

25 was very difficult to see anyone there. The military and the civilians

Page 14422

1 all were very careful when it came to their movement.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand, but you said "I never saw

3 civilians." Let's just concentrate on this part of the road, this

4 intersection.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was never there.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, but from a distance. Of course, no one says that

7 you were there, but from where you could see the, I would say, the

8 barriers, the obstacles to your view. Did you ever see around these

9 obstacles, perhaps down here in the streets, did you ever see any military

10 there?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The soldiers probably knew their

12 ways about the area. I, for instance, never went to the portions of the

13 territory where I could be visible. I did it only once, but ended up

14 wounded. So everybody took greatest care as to their movements. I could

15 see the area for instance, over the Miljacka river, but it was very far

16 from our positions, even 3.000 miles. I could see -- 3.000 kilometres [as

17 interpreted], excuse me. I could see the vehicles pass by, for example,

18 but there was nothing we could do. There was no need to react in any way.

19 I could see, for instance, a vehicle passing between the buildings, but

20 it was very far away, probably over 3.000 metres away from where we were.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I am asking you these questions because your

22 testimony, you, several times you said "civilians would not move around

23 there," but as far as I understand your answer now is that the same would

24 be true for military. At least you didn't see any military there either;

25 is that correct? And I am talking again on this part of the photograph,

Page 14423

1 not 3.000 metres away, but this part of the photograph.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw a civilian there. And

3 if I may add, just one more remark, this point here, the corner of the

4 building, I said previously that this is where our defence lines ended.

5 We couldn't see this area here because -- where the line ended. I could

6 see Lukavica, but I couldn't see the town of Sarajevo. Even if the

7 barricades had not been there, I would not have been able to see this

8 area, as far as Serb soldiers are concerned.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Sir, perhaps we should just clarify exactly what your

12 responsibility was so we can better understand what you saw and what you

13 didn't. You have told us that you were in the 2nd Armoured Battalion and

14 that you had three APCs attached to your platoon; is that correct?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that my

17 intervention is necessary at this point. There is a gap in the

18 transcript, page 74, line 22. I will tell you what I heard the witness

19 say, but I don't want to be accused of leading in any way, as if you trust

20 me -- very well, very well.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... you say. I have

22 difficulties because I am on 65 at this very moment. You said 74 or is

23 that a translation problem? I am just trying to identify the spot. Would

24 you please say --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I indicated

Page 14424

1 page 64, that is the proceeding page. The line 14 maybe which is on the

2 previous page. Let me just check. Yes. Line 22, Mr. President, on page

3 64, not 74.

4 JUDGE ORIE: What is missing?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With your permission,

6 Mr. President, I will tell you. I thought I heard the witness say that

7 from there - at least that is what I heard - the terrain climbs down --

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... to where the big

9 white building crosses the line of the ridge.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

12 whether this concludes my intervention --

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... was missing. If

14 there was anything else missing, then please tell us.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. It is just that the

16 witness had used the word "padala" in order to indicate that the terrain

17 declined, which means that the lines held by the Serbian army --

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... intervention by

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you repeat that part of your answer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corner of the white building,

21 this is where the line ended. The line held by the Serb military on the

22 horizon here. That is the point from where it was possible to see

23 Sarajevo. From that area, the terrain drops leading to the Djukica creek

24 and Lukavica. But the whole area was screened off. There were barricades

25 all around the area so it was not possible to engage in any action there.

Page 14425

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.

2 Please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.

3 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. In relation to the photograph in front of you, we see many roofs

5 from the hill on the background. Between September 1992 and August 1994,

6 the buildings in the vicinity of the front line, that is that part of the

7 front line, did not have roofs, did they, because of the fighting?

8 A. There has been some reconstruction since. This is a new

9 photograph. The roofs were probably down or damaged. This is a peacetime

10 photograph.

11 Q. Along the front line whole buildings were completely destroyed

12 back to ground level, weren't they? Not every building, but some of them?

13 A. That is not correct. All of the houses were still standing except

14 for the fact that the windows were broken or that they had some different

15 type of damage.

16 Q. Sir, it was more than broken windows wasn't it? It was whole

17 roofs destroyed in some cases, wasn't it?

18 A. Private houses, family houses, the ones located up the hill.

19 Maybe if something had fallen on top of them. I don't know. But I think

20 the majority of those houses were still inhabitable. Most of them were

21 far enough from the separation line. As I say, the Bosniak forces were

22 deployed along the ridge of the hill and the area here was safe.

23 Q. Now, in relation to your responsibility, you were part of a

24 mechanised battalion or an armed battalion, mechanised brigade, and in

25 particular you had three APCs, correct?

Page 14426

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The APCs, I take it, had a weapon on them, is that so?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this does not

4 result -- arise -- does not arise from the questions asked by the Bench.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the same question came into my mind.

6 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, there has been extensive

7 questioning of this witness since cross-examination concluded on the topic

8 of whether there were civilians in the area of incident number 10 and what

9 this witness saw of both civilians and military and it necessitates a

10 clearer understanding of what his responsibilities were in terms of what

11 he would have been likely to see. If the focus of his responsibilities

12 was the APCs, then that -- one would have a very difficult expectation

13 then if, for instance, his responsibility was that of a sniper.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. Are there any other

16 questions, Mr. Ierace?

17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, there are.

18 Q. Sir, there were a number of high-rise apartment buildings in the

19 area and some of those can be seen on the photograph in front of you,

20 can't they?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you not allow for the possibility that civilians lived in

23 those apartment buildings?

24 A. They lived in those located on the side opposite from our side on

25 the western bank of the Miljacka river, on the side which was not visible

Page 14427

1 to us. They lived on the safe side of the buildings, that is, in those

2 rooms which could not be reached by any bullet. They did not occupy those

3 rooms which were facing the Serb positions.

4 Q. That would have been far too dangerous for them, wouldn't it?

5 A. That's what they did. I mean, our people did the same.

6 Q. Now, the barricades that you have described to us in recent

7 answers offered protection to pedestrians who would cross the road which

8 led up towards the hill, correct?

9 A. Towards the hill and away from the hill.

10 Q. And given the presence of civilian-type buildings in the area, you

11 would not be surprised if civilians used the protection of the barricades

12 in order to safely cross that street, correct?

13 A. That's what the protection was for. They used it for the purposes

14 of safe passage from one part of the city to another.

15 Q. And you would surely expect that any snipers on your side of the

16 confrontation line would exploit any breaks in those barricades in order

17 to hit soldiers --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What question asked by the

21 Bench contained explicitly a reference to the presence of snipers in the

22 area?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- No. Snipers was not mentioned, but

24 the -- whether there were any breaks in these barricades was a question

25 that came up newly, so the objection is denied. But, Mr. Ierace, could

Page 14428

1 you please then try to limit it mainly to that aspect and not start a new

2 line of questioning on the issue.

3 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President, yes.

4 Q. I will repeat the question: You would surely expect that any

5 snipers on your side of the confrontation line would exploit any breaks in

6 those barricades in order to hit soldiers --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise. I

8 am very sorry but I don't think that this witness was -- has ever been

9 asked about snipers. Perhaps we should start by asking him if there were

10 any snipers and then follow on. I think this question is just an ambush.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is cross-examination, this is

12 not examination-in-chief. That is under different rules as you might

13 know, therefore, the objection is denied. And, again, may I ask you to

14 not to use your objections in order to give comments or give additional

15 information that might be of influence to the witness.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE:

18 Q. What is your answer?

19 A. I believe I was clear and have already responded to this question.

20 My unit was a motorised armour unit which did not have any snipers or

21 mortars at all. So the issue didn't -- does not apply to us at all.

22 Q. In other words, you can't inform us, given your responsibilities,

23 as to what the situation was with snipers or other individuals who may

24 have had the job of exploiting any breaks in those barricades; is that

25 correct?

Page 14429

1 A. There were no snipers in my unit. I cannot give you any comment

2 to that effect.

3 Q. Would you please listen to the question. I think you have

4 explained to us that because of your particular responsibilities, that's

5 as far as you can go in assisting this Court with the exploitation in

6 breaks in the barricades; is that correct, sir?

7 A. Any breaks in those barricades, and this applies to both sides.

8 Whenever we discovered a gap in our lines or any such problem in our

9 lines, we would try to repair it overnight. So all these breaks were

10 repaired right away. There was a large concentration of people living in

11 the area, after all. So there were no breaks, so to speak. There were

12 half a million people living in Sarajevo, in the area. They had to put up

13 all those barricades and be careful about them.

14 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: I have to apologise to the parties, but I had

18 forgotten one question when I asked the witness -- when I examined the

19 witness before. I have got one question for you.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ORIE: You talked about the MUP building. Would that be the

22 same for you as police academy or is the police academy a different

23 building from the MUP building?

24 A. Before the war, the building was a police academy. There never

25 was a police station located in this building. It was a school. But

Page 14430

1 during the war, it was in this school building that our platoon was

2 located. It is from there that we defended ourselves. It was not a

3 police station.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do understand. But where other people refer to

5 police academy and where you talk about the MUP building, you would -- it

6 would be your position that that is the same building?

7 A. Yes, of course. That's the only building that can be connected

8 with MUP in the area. There was no other such building.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your answer. We will

10 adjourn, but your testimony, Mr. DP10, has been concluded by now. So

11 after the break, we will not see you again. I would like to thank you

12 very much for coming the long way from where you live to The Hague. And I

13 would also like to thank you for giving answers to the questions of both

14 the parties and of the Judges, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours. It

16 was -- it has been a pleasant experience for me.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn until five minutes to 1.00.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, is my understanding correct that

23 DP9 will be the next to testify? Yes, I see from both parties they do

24 agree that that will be the next witness. A decision on the requested

25 protective measures have not yet been taken. I can tell the parties that

Page 14431

1 an overall decision for all protective measures sought is being prepared.

2 It is not always easy because we -- a few things have been mixed up and

3 things have been changed meanwhile, as well. I am specifically referring

4 to the safe conduct. So we first have to take a decision on the

5 protective measures sought for Witness DP9, and I would like to turn into

6 closed session to see whether there are any additional observations to be

7 made.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before we do that --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are not yet in closed session.

10 MR. IERACE: Just two quick matters. Last Wednesday you asked me

11 if the -- when the Prosecution would be filing a response to the Defence

12 application for a certificate of appeal --

13 JUDGE ORIE: I saw something on my desk this morning. Is that a

14 different thing?

15 MR. IERACE: It is a different thing, Mr. President. And last

16 Wednesday I said that we would do it by this afternoon. There has been a

17 holdup with the translation, and it may not be until tomorrow afternoon

18 that we file our response.

19 Secondly, by way of explanation, this morning I left the Trial

20 Chamber during the sitting and returned during the sitting. That is

21 because we heard significant evidence for the first time of which we were

22 not forewarned and we are seeking to adapt ourselves in the most

23 economical way to research and then respond to that evidence. And for

24 that reason, it may well be that with future witnesses, with your leave,

25 Mr. President, I will absent myself and return and indeed seek leave to

Page 14432

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Page 14433

1 ask questions in cross-examination, as well as other counsel. And that

2 being said, given that we are about to hear another witness, I propose not

3 to be present during the examination-in-chief, or at least part of it.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, as far as the next witness is

6 concerned, the last line of the summary, of the extended summary was he

7 will speak about facts important to 4 scheduled sniping incident and then

8 two numbers follow. Has this been -- the Chamber has asked the Defence to

9 be as precise as possible if these facts are part of the examination. Has

10 there been any further explanation by the Defence to the Prosecution in

11 this respect?

12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. We received a letter dated the

13 21st of October 2002 which gave us some information. I can only assume

14 that that is the only additional information which pertains to the oral

15 judgment, the oral decision of the Trial Chamber some eight days ago, ten

16 days ago.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, I would like to turn into closed session.

18 MR. IERACE: Might I be excused, Mr. President?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, you are.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 [Closed session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 14437

1 JUDGE ORIE: And Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness

2 into the courtroom. At the same time, Madam Registrar, may I ask you to

3 deal with the documents tendered during the previous testimony.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand? Can

6 you hear me in a language you understand?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I invite you just to sit down for a second since

9 we have to deal with a small procedural issue and then we will start your

10 examination as a witness. Yes. Please be seated for one second.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1765 under seal, pseudonym sheet; Exhibit

14 D1766, map marked by witness Exhibit D1766.1, map marked by witness

15 Exhibit D1767, map marked by witness Exhibit D1768, map marked by witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections expressed by the

17 Prosecution the documents are admitted into evidence, D1675 under seal.

18 THE REGISTRAR: D1765 under seal.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise for the mistake.

20 Mr. DP9, usually it takes one or two minutes more before the

21 witness enters the courtroom, that's the reason why we are not yet

22 completely finished with what we had to do.

23 May I invite you to stand, to stand up. The Rules of Procedure

24 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to

Page 14438

1 make that solemn declaration and the text has just been handed out to you

2 by the usher.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP9, we will not use your own name since

8 protective measures have been granted in respect of you. So, therefore,

9 we will address you as Mr. DP9 or Witness DP9.

10 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed. You will first be examined by

11 counsel for the Defence.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honour.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS DP9

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP9, good afternoon.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Before I start asking you questions, I will show you a document

19 and ask you to look at it and to tell us whether the information on this

20 sheet of paper is correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, before you continue, may I also ask

22 the Registrar 1768 is that not a number that has been just attributed to a

23 map?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I then take it, Ms. Pilipovic, that this one

Page 14439

1 becomes --

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I was wrong. 1769, my apologies.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. DP9, is the information in the sheet of paper accurate?

6 A. Yes, it is accurate.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order to obtain

9 some more precise information about Witness DP9, I would like to ask that

10 we go into a closed session.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into closed or private session.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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25 [redacted]

Page 14440

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2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. DP9 --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Now we are in open session. Please proceed.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

15 Q. Mr. DP9, you told us that in 1992 in the beginning you said where

16 you lived until the first unrest. Can you tell us according to you, when

17 was that in your neighbourhood?

18 A. In my neighbourhood, the unrest started and what happened was that

19 in a part barricades sprung up in the shape of dustbins. So that in early

20 March, and then because of certain information I had and the advice of my

21 neighbours, I moved to another territory.

22 Q. Mr. DP9, in 1992, in September, can you tell us where were you

23 then, in which territory?

24 A. In the month of September, I was in the territory of Bijelo Polje,

25 Lukavica, and that is the area bordering on Dobrinja I.

Page 14441

1 Q. Can you tell us if in September 1992 you were in that area? Since

2 when were you in that area?

3 A. I was in that area from the month of April 1992.

4 Q. Can you explain to us what was the reason? You've indicated --

5 you mentioned different locations. What was the reason why you were in

6 that area since April 1992?

7 A. In April 1992 in that area when the news spread of the Yugoslav

8 People's Army had to leave the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in that

9 area, the Territorial Defence was established and I was its member. And

10 at certain locations it stood guard, which were set up in the direction of

11 the city of Sarajevo.

12 Q. Mr. DP9, you tell us this: The part of the city that you lived

13 in, and you told us earlier on that you held positions there, which is the

14 part of the city that you are talking about?

15 A. It is Dobrinja, that is what it is called. The locality of

16 Dobrinja.

17 Q. Witness DP9, you said that you became a member of the Territorial

18 Defence. Was that some kind of formation and how many people did it

19 consist of, this Territorial Defence?

20 A. At the beginning, the Territorial Defence consisted of a number of

21 reservists, people who were a member of the reserve police force.

22 However, later on when it became clear that the situation would get even

23 more dangerous, it became better organised. Military-aged men or partly

24 able-bodied men, people fit or partly fit for military service were

25 supposed to report there so that adequate protection can be organised.

Page 14442

1 Q. When you say that the adequate protection had to be organised, who

2 do you have in mind? Why was it necessary to organise protection?

3 A. There was organised activity coming from the other part of the

4 town where what we at the time called Green Berets were. There was

5 already a lot of unrest in the city and people who were still able to

6 leave the city because a number of people could no longer leave the town

7 told us about these incidents. I personally, while I was still living in

8 my neighbourhood before I left, I also noticed some people including the

9 people I knew who had been assembled and partly armed.

10 Q. Witness DP9, when did you first see these groups of people that

11 you said were partly armed and in which part of the town this was, if you

12 saw any?

13 A. In late February in the neighbourhood where I lived, there

14 appeared a number of patrols of the reserve police force wearing their

15 typical uniforms, the uniforms of the reserve police force which were blue

16 in colour, who were also accompanied by people not wearing uniforms. And

17 they together conducted patrols. What seems strange to me was the fact

18 that the people, the members of these patrols were civilians and all of

19 them Muslim.

20 Q. Were these people armed?

21 A. The leader of this patrol who was a reserve police officer had an

22 automatic rifle. And these other people initially, during the first

23 several days did not carry weapons, according to what I was able to

24 observe. However, later on when I took a closer look, I realised that

25 they had pistols, the pistols that they did not bother to hide, and were

Page 14443

1 displaying them visibly. They were usually stuck in their belt.

2 Q. Mr. DP9, in September 1992, were you personally armed?

3 A. I was armed in September 1992, yes.

4 Q. When did you first get a weapon? At that time or before that

5 period of time?

6 A. I have been given a weapon by the Territorial Defence as early as

7 the month of April of that year. However, it was commonly owned. I mean

8 that those people who returned from their tour of duty would leave the

9 weapons to the following shift.

10 Q. So it was in April 1992 that you were first issued a weapon. From

11 that period of time on, that is after April, were there any operations

12 conducted? Was anything going on in the area where you lived and were you

13 in a position to use your weapon?

14 A. Well, we started using our weapons in late April, early May. This

15 was a long time ago, so I am speaking to the best of my recollection.

16 There was a formation consisting of 10 to 15 people. And they attempted

17 at one point in time to take control of the Veljine church, from the

18 direction of Dobrinja, the church which was located in the area of

19 Veljine.

20 Q. Do you know when in the month of April this was? In mid-April or

21 late April?

22 A. I said that it was either in late April or early May. I cannot

23 remember the exact date. It was a long time ago.

24 Q. You said that there was a group of people who attempted to take

25 possession of this locality. Do you know which group it was? Who were

Page 14444

1 these people?

2 A. This group --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has given the Defence

5 a little bit of leeway here but we are objecting on the grounds of

6 relevance.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we have discussed the issue before,

8 but please respond.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but from what we

10 understand, we also adopted the position, as far as the position of the

11 Prosecution is concerned, this period of time is also relevant for the

12 purposes of establishing the existence of certain number of locations

13 which might be relevant, in view of the fact that the witness has the

14 knowledge of the things which will -- it will be demonstrated will be

15 important for the purposes of establishing the truth.

16 As far as I understand, my learned colleague is asking about the

17 relevancy of the question in view of the period of time. I think we

18 addressed the issue during the Prosecution case as well, that is the issue

19 of how relevant the period preceding September 1992 is.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, just to clarify the Prosecution's

22 position with respect to this issue, the Prosecution has always taken the

23 view that we are required under the Statute to establish the existence of

24 an armed conflict, and that was the specific reason why evidence was

25 adduced to demonstrate that an armed conflict existed prior to the

Page 14445

1 commencement of the indictment period. But the Prosecution's view is that

2 we have established that and I don't know if that is still at issue as far

3 as the Defence is concerned, but that was the reason we adduced evidence

4 with respect to pre-indictment period.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Am I right in understanding that one of the few

6 issues on which the parties had agreed was that during the whole

7 indictment period there was an armed conflict in and around Sarajevo?

8 Well, I have to check it. Does the Defence at this moment contest that

9 there was an armed conflict?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence expressed

11 its position to the fact that there was an armed conflict, however, in

12 view of the indictment against General Galic which indictment specifies

13 that the units of the Yugoslav People's Army and other units of the 4th

14 Corps took position of important strategic positions in and around

15 Sarajevo after which the town was besieged. The witness -- the Defence is

16 merely trying to establish that it was not a matter of taking possession

17 of important strategic points that simply a division occurred along the

18 ethnic lines in certain parts of the town, and that in those areas, as a

19 result of that, lines of separation were established at one point in time,

20 which lines of separation existed continued to exist throughout the

21 conflict and did not significantly change. However, there were portions

22 of this line which were altered to a certain effect. With this witness we

23 are trying to show that it was not a matter of taking important strategic

24 positions, but that simply lines of separation was established at one

25 point in time between these two major ethnic entities in the area of the

Page 14446

1 town of Sarajevo.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it in dispute that lines of separation were

3 established at one point in time?

4 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we have dealt with the issue before,

6 and I have suggested in order not to shortcut in whatever way the rights

7 of the Defence, I suggested that you could lead the witness through these

8 kind of things very easily and that you would not expect the Prosecution

9 to object. But to hear from every witness to come whether he saw the

10 other party having rifles or automatic rifles or pistols and whether they

11 were not visible or visible, where this finally seems to have not a

12 specific meaning for the case, might take a lot of time and might not be

13 of great assistance to the Chamber.

14 So therefore, my suggestion would be that you very quickly move to

15 what is the relevant part and unless the situation in that part of town

16 was considerably different from what we find somewhere else, and that is

17 that both parties came together, perhaps one party saying that the others

18 were showing that they were organising themselves and were trying to get

19 weapons, and where the other party said that it was just the opposite

20 party that was coming together, was organising itself and getting some

21 weapons. I mean, that is a picture we have heard with not great variance.

22 I think now some 30 40, 50 times. So I think that we could go through

23 that quite quickly, unless there is a specific thing that needs specific

24 attention, and if you want to pay specific attention to front lines, move

25 to that subject as soon as possible then. Or if you would say in one part

Page 14447

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Page 14448

1 of town people were having rifles but everyone was having this private

2 mortar, that would be different and you can pay specific attention to

3 that, but most of what we heard during the last 15 minutes is, if not

4 identical, then at least very much similar to what we heard already many

5 many times. So I think it would be efficient to deal with it in a

6 different way and perhaps to follow the suggestion made by the Chamber

7 before.

8 Please proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but the witness

10 whom the Defence is hearing for the first time today, together with the

11 Chamber and the Prosecution, is the first witness who actually spent some

12 time on those lines and in this particular neighbourhood. So we think it

13 is necessary and useful for us to about the situation during that period

14 of time from this witness concerning this particular area. In particular,

15 in view of the fact that the witness has just indicated that there had

16 been fighting around the church which locality is also relevant for the

17 Defence. My questions -- my question concerned the fighting in the area

18 of the church.

19 Q. Witness, you indicated that in September 1992 --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is specific. If you want to cover a specific

21 area, no problem, but a lot was really similar to what we heard before.

22 And please proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 Q. Witness, DP9, you told us that in September you were present at a

25 certain line. In what capacity was that?

Page 14449

1 A. I was present at those lines in my capacity of a VRS army soldier.

2 Q. As a VRS army soldier, can you tell us what unit you belonged to?

3 A. I was a member of an infantry unit. And as far as the military

4 structure is concerned, I was a member of a company which was part of the

5 1st Infantry Battalion.

6 Q. Witness DP9, let me go back a little. You told us that the first

7 operations occurred in the month of April in this area involving the

8 Veljine church. Was there any open fighting, open conflict in the area at

9 the time and what were the consequences of both in terms of troops and

10 potential damage and destruction?

11 A. They arrived from the area of Dobrinja, the former football

12 stadium which is now the bus station belonging to Republika Srpska.

13 Infantry fire was opened by the guards and we were alerted and told that

14 even senior members of the unit should engage in fighting. But after a

15 while, they withdrew and I don't know because it was already dark. There

16 was no electricity on that particular day although there had been

17 electricity in the previous days. So the visibility was very low and I

18 don't know exactly how it happened. And the area itself is rather green

19 and there were certain -- there were also barricades there. So I am not

20 quite sure about the casualties. But as far as our side is concerned, we

21 did not suffer any casualties.

22 Q. Witness DP9, do you have any personal knowledge whether the church

23 which was the subject of this fighting was damaged during the armed

24 conflict in the area?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

Page 14450

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution renews its objection

2 on the grounds of relevance. We're discussing an incident that happened

3 in April of 1992 which is clearly pre-indictment period.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I am trying to

6 elicit from the witness whether he has any personal knowledge about the

7 damage done to the church, to the building. I am not talking specifically

8 about the month of April, but generally speaking, I am referring to the

9 period of the armed conflict. I just want to know whether the church was

10 damaged.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is, as such, not entirely irrelevant. I

12 take it that you will put then questions to the witness later on about

13 what might be the relevance of the damage done to the church? I mean, the

14 mere fact that the church was damaged, is that what you want to establish

15 or this specific church in relation to specific events that happened

16 later?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may proceed. Well, let's --

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- Not proceed because it is a quarter of 2.00. That

21 means we will have to adjourn until tomorrow morning, same courtroom,

22 9.00. Ms. Pilipovic, until now, the Defence took approximately 20

23 minutes. Yes.

24 If there is no other issue to --

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 14451

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For -- in order to clarify for the transcript,

2 the last part of the session that was not an open session was a private

3 session, although the English transcript says that it was closed session.

4 There might be some confusion since private session and closed session is

5 effectively the same in this courtroom. So, therefore, I will take care

6 that the, perhaps, that we find a clear line on whether we use closed

7 session or private session, and that it could create no confusion

8 whatsoever in the transcript. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning,

9 9.00.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

11 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

12 the 29th day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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