1 Friday, 1 November 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 We still have to deal with exhibits that were tendered previous
10 days. Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through the documents.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D348/12B, videotape.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Prosecution does object to the
14 videotape on the basis of relevance. I think an objection was taken at
15 the time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, we will then further consider that.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 THE REGISTRAR: D1772, under seal, pseudonym sheet; D1773, map;
19 D1774, map; D1776, map; D1775, map.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since there are no objections against these
21 documents, they are admitted in the evidence and the Chamber has also
22 decided that in respect of the videotape mentioned, Madam Registrar, is it
23 correct that it is a D348/12B, that is at least what the --
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That is what the transcript says. The Chamber denies
1 the objection and admits the videotape in evidence.
2 THE REGISTRAR: There is also outstanding Exhibit P3753 black and
3 white photographs, set of five.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection the Defence has raised against
5 the use of these photographs is denied. The photographs of the church,
6 different photographs, are admitted into evidence. And where the Defence
7 has objected also on the basis that it was exculpatory material that was
8 not timely disclosed by the Prosecution, the Chamber considers that the
9 Prosecution at the time they retrieved these photographs, it was not
10 apparent to the Prosecution, at least, Prosecution told the Chamber that
11 it was not apparent to them that this was exculpatory material, and the
12 Chamber accepts that the Prosecution should not have considered it, should
13 not have qualified it at that moment as exculpatory material. Where the
14 Defence has explained that questions put to witnesses could have resulted
15 in exculpatory evidence, that as such does not qualify the document as
16 such as exculpatory.
17 If the Prosecution takes its obligation seriously, that it has to
18 disclose exculpatory material, it should become apparent in one way or
19 another from that material itself that it would be exculpatory for the
21 Having dealt with the documents, is the Defence ready to call its
22 next witness?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President?
24 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are only halfway through our documents
2 because we have yesterday's documents. Yes. Yes.
3 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have conveyed
5 to Madam Registrar rather late that I would like to address your Chamber
6 for a few minutes. Do I have your permission to do so?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There are several points that
9 we need to address. Yesterday, we were able to note a high degree of
10 nervousness. Yesterday, the Defence was exposed to two types of strange
11 interventions. We were accused of making noise which we were not doing.
12 We were reproached for a nonprofessional attitude, and at the end of the
13 hearing, two representatives of the Prosecution stood up saying that the
14 witness had greeted General Galic, and that this should be entered into
15 the record.
16 I should like to challenge anyone to assert that this witness
17 greeted General Galic and not members of the Defence. And if anyone
18 wishes to respond, I would like to have the proof of that on the spot.
19 Secondly, supposing that this witness who experienced atrocities and who
20 was victim of grave violations of humanitarian law and who was a young
21 soldier under the orders of the general, supposing he did greet him, what
22 is astonishing about that?
23 Third point, there were Prosecution witnesses, and I am speaking
24 by memory, I am speaking of Dr. Nakas, who upon leaving this auditorium
25 greeted in a military way General Galic which is out of courtesy, and I
1 didn't notice the Prosecution saying anything. Thirdly, witnesses of the
2 Prosecution after testifying had wanted contact with me, the Prosecution
3 gave them my telephone number, and I see nothing wrong with that. Also,
4 the Defence did not make any gesture that would justify the accusation
5 that behaviour was not professional. Now we come to a more technical
6 matters. The question of lines.
7 The Prosecution said that everything appearing in the transcript
8 regarding the lines drawn by this witness should be redacted because they
9 say it is not normal for a witness to draw lines. I remind you that all
10 the maps given by the Prosecution carry lines mentioning angles or
11 trajectories. If the Defence does not have the right when an already
12 drawn maps are given to it, is not allowed to have its witnesses draw
13 lines there seems to be a disequilibrium between the parties which is not
14 understandable regardless of jurisdictions.
15 A third point, Your Honour, the question of time. For this
16 witness, I tried very quickly to put questions to this witness to such a
17 degree that I was asked to slow down. In spite of that, a lot of time was
18 lost and that was certainly not the fault of the Defence and it would be
19 necessary that the time used by the Prosecution should be within the given
20 limits and not beyond that. The system of the banking system, as I said
21 the other day, was not accepted and it is not normal for the Prosecution
22 to take so much time. Also, there was a decision rendered regarding a
23 meeting of the 30th of October. We told you that we responded that very
24 day, on the 30th of October. And this decision has to do with the need of
25 dividing up the exhibits according to witnesses.
1 I should like to recall that the Prosecution did not do so in its
2 own case. It only did it from one week to another, on a weekly basis, in
3 other words, and we understood your decision to mean that the Defence
4 should do so for its whole case. Clearly, if that were to be the case
5 there would be inequality of treatment and we don't know whether your
6 decision was confirmed after reading our letter of the 30th of October or
7 whether it needs further specification.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What exactly -- it is not in my recollection that we
9 took a decision, as a matter of fact. You brought to our attention that
10 you replied to the complaint in writing, and I don't -- it is not in my
11 recollection that we have taken a decision. So before you ask us to
12 review a decision or to reconsider the matter, what was our decision and
13 where do we find it exactly? I might make a mistake, but, yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot verify
15 right now, but I think that you indicated the following: Prosecution is
16 right when it was presenting its interpretation of mail. The Prosecution
17 is right, et cetera, and if you tell us that the Prosecution is right in
18 its interpretation of the -- your decision, this is perhaps not a decision
19 but almost a decision and that is how we understood it. I shall try to
20 find your exact words and quote from them later on.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You wanted us to reconsider the matter. Yes.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If it is a decision, yes, if
23 there is no decision, everything is fine.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have to consider the matter. Yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: In relation to the last point, Mr. President, when
3 you said that the other day, Mr. Piletta-Zanin interrupted and said that
4 he had replied and that he wanted you to read his reply before you made
5 the decision and that's where it was left.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think that is what we then it tended to do.
7 MR. IERACE: In relation to the other matters, the many matters
8 raised by Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I don't propose to reply to all of them.
9 When we objected yesterday to noise coming from the Defence side,
10 specifically what we meant is that quite audibly from here we could make
11 out conversations, although we could not understand them, between Defence
12 counsel in the Serbian language and it concerned us greatly, that if we
13 could hear it, then certainly the witness, and we thought it, and continue
14 to think it, inappropriate. Although we only made that observation once,
15 it is something which we hear repeatedly.
16 Mr. President, two further matters.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I just already address this matter. I observed
18 yesterday that when conversations between General Galic and Defence
19 counsel started at a relatively high volume, that they seemed to become
20 aware of this and the volume then was put down. I observed that and I
21 appreciate that the Defence is aware that no conversation should be held
22 in a language the Chamber cannot follow in the presence of a witness. So
23 I do understand. I do agree with you that it should be avoided. I also
24 observed that at least yesterday that where it started the wrong way it
25 continued the right way. Please proceed.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, two other matters. Firstly, I would
2 be grateful if we could, as a matter of course, have an update each Friday
3 from the Defence as to the order of witnesses to be called the following
4 week. And more particularly, that any update be a running list. In other
5 words, rather than have a list of witnesses for two weeks time, every time
6 we get a list of witnesses, it be from the next witness onwards.
7 Secondly, Mr. President, an issue that I have raised a number of
8 times is evidence being elicited from Defence witnesses which is contrary
9 to Prosecution evidence and which has not been put to any of the relevant
10 Prosecution witnesses. That also is a concern because the -- some of that
11 evidence has not been the subject of notice to us.
12 Mr. President, it seems to me that the appropriate course for the
13 Prosecution to take is to object to that evidence being elicited on those
14 grounds. I am in your hands as to the way we should do that. The
15 possibilities are that each time it happens, and we have had an
16 opportunity to do a double-check, that we formally object and ask that the
17 evidence be redacted because, of course, it is given without notice.
18 Mr. President, it would also be appropriate, I think, if we were
19 to assist you with a motion, in other words, a submission in writing on
20 that issue. Normally, that would be done in response to an adverse
21 decision against the Prosecution which would seem to necessitate us as a
22 matter of logic in taking those various objections. I appreciate the time
23 constraints and I wonder whether in view of the time pressures and in view
24 of the many submissions I have made to this effect in the past, it could
25 be taken as sufficient -- a sufficient foundation for the written
1 submission and I could simply, in the course of next week, file that
2 seeking a response that such evidence from here on should be rejected.
3 The Trial Chamber could then consider its position.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be a practical solution that the Prosecution
5 sets out in writing in general terms the complaints it has about the way
6 the Defence is proceeding in this respect, that the Defence would respond
7 to that, and that at a suitable occasion whether the Prosecution finds a
8 moment where it would like to object against the way the Defence is
9 proceeding, that it objects or asks for redaction, and then refers at that
10 moment to the written exchange, views, so that we then can take a
11 decision, but that we have prepared that in writing, at least the parties
12 have prepared the arguments for such situations in writing and that we
13 then wait until the first time that we are facing this problem. Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not going
15 to respond in substance. The Defence is working until very late at night.
16 It has a very small team. When we begin to prove things now, we are
17 asking for the transcript to be redacted now, why, because we are prove
18 the opposite from the Prosecution, nothing else. I wish to underline that
19 on the 29th of October, 2002, the Defence clearly indicated to the
20 Prosecution everything that the witness could be saying. All this is very
21 precise. There is no ambush there. And I do not understand when
22 witnesses come to testify and say something, act in the same way as all
23 other witnesses have done, we are told, stop, "they are Defence witnesses
24 and passages need to be redacted," obviously those that prove the case of
25 the Defence. This in our view is evidence of total disrespect of the
1 truth. Thank you.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I just indicate that the
3 procedural outline that you have given is acceptable to the Prosecution.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would the Defence be willing to respond then to such
6 a submission so that the Chamber can decide whenever the situation occurs?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we absolutely
8 do not have time, and we are reproached for speaking Serbian. I am
9 reproached for this. I am reproached for speaking French. And when I
10 have meetings in English, I am reproached for speaking in English. We are
11 criticised for so many things as the Defence. We simply don't have the
12 physical time to engage in this effort. This is a strategy of harassment
13 and exhaustion of the Defence. If it is felt that General Galic should
14 not have Defence counsel able to do its work, we should be told straight
15 away, "we are going to exhaust you and you can't do anything." If that is
16 what is wanted, let us be told that. I would like to know.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please explain what you meant by you saying
18 "that you are going to exhaust us, and that we can't do anything,"
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will be glad
21 to. At present we are engaging in some very delicate preparations for the
22 Defence case. I have to interrogate each of the witnesses --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked you what you meant when
24 you said: "We are going to exhaust you, and you can't do anything." I
25 would like you to just explain these words. That is what appears in the
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I will be glad to.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I especially would like to know since I
4 was listening to the English channel, when you said in French that this is
5 going to exhaust you, or that you were going to exhaust us? That's, as a
6 matter of fact, the clarification I would like to have in order to avoid
7 whatever misunderstanding.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know
9 whether I am going to exhaust you, but I never said that I would exhaust
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's the only clarification that I would line to
12 have, because it is then wrongly written in the transcript. I will take
13 care always to switch to French when you speak. I do understand that the
14 answer of the Defence is that they do not agree with the proposed
15 procedural approach. Since the parties disagree, the Chamber will decide
16 what the procedural way we are dealing with this matter will be. Having
17 said this, I think the Defence could call its next witness.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before that happens, there is
19 still a matter of a running list. And I --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the running list. The last list that has been
21 provided by the Defence was that -- what is the last list,
22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, so that we --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Ms. Pilipovic
24 will address you because we had to divide up our tasks as you know, and
25 she is fully au courant with the matter.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is the last list the one attached to the letter of
2 the 29th of October?
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: This starts with a name which --
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] A female name.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a female name.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, except that
8 today the Defence will submit a list, the list for next week. The
9 schedule is more or less the same except that we were informed last night
10 that one witness for certain reasons will not be able to come here next
11 week. So today after the session, I will submit the list. There won't be
12 many changes. More or less there will be the same witness, except for
13 one, the number three on the list.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Will that list start with the witness examined
15 today or, I mean, is there a gap between the witnesses that are examined
16 now and that are still going to testify, and the first one on the list?
17 What the Prosecution is asking you is to provide lists where the first
18 name is also the next witness you will call, and that could avoid any
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the list for next
21 week will begin with the witness who starts today, unless he is finished
22 today. So it will start with this witness and then we will have the
24 JUDGE ORIE: So then we have the -- I think, Mr. Ierace, that is
25 what you --
1 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you,
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- What you are seeking. Then we can start -- we
3 will consider the matter of the documents whether they have to be related
4 to a specific witness or not, where in writing the Defence responded that
5 they could not relate the documents to specific witnesses. We will
6 consider the matter and we will give you a ruling on that.
7 Ms. Pilipovic, are you ready to call your next witness? And
8 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, do we still -- because the Chamber is
11 not informed -- do we have to take any decision in respect of protective
12 measures or not?
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I even hear that you can even understand me in the
19 language I use. Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of
20 Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that you
21 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text
22 of this declaration we be now given to you by the usher. Will you please
23 make that declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. You will
2 first be examined by counsel for the Defence.
3 WITNESS: IZO GOLIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning?
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Can you please introduce yourself, surname and date of birth. My
9 name is Izo Golic, father's name Velija [Realtime transcript read in error
10 "Delija"]. I was born on the 5th of January 1954 [as interpreted],
11 village of Zakum, municipality of Rogatica.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what is your profession?
13 A. I am a transport engineer.
14 Q. Could you tell us in 1992, and we are only speaking about the
15 period from 1992 through 1994 where did you live and where did you work?
16 A. Your Honours, I lived in the place where I was born in Zakum, near
17 Rogatica and all the time I worked in Rogatica. For a while in the state
18 company Tehnotrans from Rogatica which was a transport company and later
19 on --
20 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. I would just like to ask you to
21 speak a little more slowly considering that the interpreters have to
22 translate what you say. And since we are speaking the same language.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp
24 MR. STAMP: Before my colleague proceeds with the question, could
25 the date of birth of this witness be clarified because what I see on the
1 transcript is not entirely consistent with what we have and it does affect
2 the manner in which we proceed with searches in respect of this witness.
3 So it would be very helpful if the date of birth would be clarified and
4 the father's name.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there seems to be confusion. The witness has
6 answered that question, but do I understand that you have received
7 information that is different from the testimony of the witness?
8 MR. STAMP: From what I see on the transcript. From what we have
9 received from the Defence.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Golic, could you tell us, when were you born?
12 A. I was born on the 5th of January, 1959, in the village of Zakum
13 near Rogatica and I studied in Sarajevo, if that means anything to anyone.
14 Q. Father's name?
15 A. Velija. Velija.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, you told us that in 1992, you lived and
17 worked in Rogatica. Could you tell us, did you serve military service and
19 A. I served in the former JNA like all the citizens of the former
20 Yugoslavia. After I completed my faculty in 1984, I served the military
21 service in Subotica.
22 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us or what is your military specialty?
23 A. I was 11206. I was a server, crew member of the -- later on
24 commander --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat part of the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the latter part of the
3 answer. You said "I was a server crew member of," and then could you
4 please repeat that part of your answer.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I served in the JNA in Subotica in
6 1984. And my military specialty was 11206. I was a server and, later on,
7 commander of the platoon of the mortar, 120 millimetre, M-74, M-75.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, you are using the word "11206." That does
9 not mean anything to me at this very moment. Could you tell us what that
10 is, what that number stands for?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rules of service in the former
12 Yugoslavia provided certain abilities, certain military specialties,
13 abilities, and this is just a code of the former JNA.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Golic, in September 1992, could you tell us where were you?
17 A. In September 1992, I was on the Sarajevo front and my unit was in
18 the area of the village of Petrovici below Mount Trebevic on the
19 south-west side near Sarajevo.
20 Q. Mr. Golic, I would just like you to answer the questions as slowly
21 and briefly, please. Mr. Golic, when you told us where you were in 1992,
22 could you tell us what military unit did you belong to?
23 A. I was a member of a mortar battery, 120 millimetre within the
24 Rogatica Battalion as part of the 1st Romanija Brigade of the Sarajevo
25 Romanija Corps.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. When you tell us that you were a member of the Rogatica Battalion
2 in 1992, could you tell us when was Rogatica Battalion established?
3 A. The Rogatica Battalion was established in 1992 in March, following
4 the breakup of the units of the former JNA in that area because of the
5 desertion of the units by members of Muslim members of the JNA.
6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, you told us that the Rogatica Battalion was
7 established in March 1992. Could you tell us what was the duty, what was
8 the task of this battalion?
9 A. If I can clarify. So it was established after the first
10 demonstration, that is the first barricades [Realtime transcript read in
11 error "barracks"] were set up in Sarajevo after the killing of the member
12 of a wedding party in Sarajevo --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that there is a
16 problem in the English transcript. I can read "first barracks." I am not
17 sure that is what is correct. What I believe that the transcript -- I
18 cannot repeat it, but I will have to -- I have to state it here.
19 JUDGE ORIE: When you clarified your answer, you say: "So it was
20 established after the first demonstration that is the first, what? I see
21 that you are reading the transcript.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the first barricades in
23 Sarajevo, that is after the 1st of March.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Would you please proceed.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Golic, did you personally receive call-up papers to join this
3 A. No. I simply found out on the 3rd of March that all Serb
4 population was going of their own self initiative in the village of Gucevo
5 near Rogatica and this arrival was not something that I was informed of.
6 This was something spontaneous of the Serb population from this region
7 where I lived, where I lived and worked.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, when you told us that in September 1992, as
9 a member of Rogatica Battalion, you were on the positions as you told us
10 in the village of Petrovici below -- sorry Mount Trebevic?
11 A. Mount Trebevic.
12 Q. Mount Trebevic. Could you tell us that when was it that as a
13 member of the Rogatica Battalion you arrived on the positions that were
14 the positions of the city of Sarajevo?
15 A. We arrived there on the 3rd of May after the events with respect
16 to the barracks and the departure of the former JNA from Sarajevo, and the
17 events in the Dobrovoljacka Street. It was on the 3rd of May, 1992.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, as a member of the Rogatica Battalion,
19 could you tell us how strong was the Rogatica Battalion?
20 A. To start with, there were 450 people, but because of some personal
21 fear or other reasons, they didn't go to Sarajevo, so only 250 of us went
22 to Sarajevo.
23 Q. When you tell us left for Sarajevo, could you tell us who called
24 you to go to Sarajevo?
25 A. As a battalion, we were called and gathered in Gucevo on the 4th
1 of April following the Muslim Ramadan holiday, and when they were
2 celebrating and firing from our weapons in our regions too and these
3 barricades were set up, also in Sarajevo and we were called together as a
4 battalion in Gucevo. So this was a mobilisation of the battalion on the
5 4th of April.
6 Q. Thank you. In the month of May when you arrived in Sarajevo,
7 could you tell us to which positions did your battalion come?
8 A. We came to the positions where the Serb population had established
9 and set up its barricades. So the infantry units were had their positions
10 and the positions from the Jewish cemetery until the bridge, that is,
11 towards the Executive Council. That is the bridge on the -- Vrbanja
12 bridge and then from the southern part of Miljacka River, near the
13 Brotherhood and Unity Bridge and the Grbavica stadium, and then along
14 Vraca, alongside Vraca until the beginning up there towards Mojmilo hill.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. Can I just clarify something. The mortar battery had the position
17 on old field in Lukavica of the football club, Lukavica. During the
18 following night, we had to withdraw to the village of Ivanici because we
19 were under intense sniper fire.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation], Mr. President, apparently what
22 doesn't appear in the transcript is Ivanici.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the village on the
24 other side of the hill --
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Golic. Mr. Golic, could you tell us for the
2 transcript, you withdrew from Lukavica to the village --
3 A. From the field of the Lukavica football club some 500 metres we
4 draw to the other side of the hill and the village is Ivanici. Ivanici,
6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, could you tell us the Rogatica Battalion,
7 you say this is a battery, a mortar battery. Could you tell us were there
8 companies within the battalion?
9 A. There were two infantry companies and one mortar battalion of the
10 Rogatica Battalion. And I said that infantry companies had their
11 positions from the Jewish cemetery through the Vrbanja bridge and the
12 Zeljin stadium.
13 Q. So you are telling us that you were in a mortar battery. Can you
14 tell us how many weapons did your mortar battery have?
15 A. Yes. The artillery, we had six pieces.
16 Q. How many people were there in the battery?
17 A. It wasn't up to establishment strength because many people left
18 and it was composed of people who -- that was not their military specialty
19 and there were only 45 people and in establishment strength should have
20 been 65.
21 Q. Could you tell us the command of your battalion, where was it
23 A. The command of the battalion was located, to start with, in Vraca,
24 in a building near the monument. And at this time, that is from August,
25 it was in at the guesthouse by Trebevic near the tennis courts.
1 Q. Mr. Golic, your mortar battery, did it have its command post?
2 A. The commander was with the battery except that when he had to be
3 at reconnaissance position, that is on the observation position where he
4 was able to tell us where to fire.
5 Q. Tell us these two companies that were part of the battalion, where
6 did they have their command post?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you tell us, these two companies, where did they have their
9 command post?
10 A. Immediately after -- behind the demarcation line, the command of
11 the first company was by the Catholic nun's home and the second one was in
12 a coffee bar somewhere towards the Zagrebacka Street.
13 Q. Mr. Golic, now you've described the composition of the units you
14 belonged to and the weapons that your battery had, could you tell us, did
15 you, as a member of the mortar battery, did you receive targets for your
17 A. Yes. At that time I was a commander of the second firing platoon
18 and we were -- we received the targets from the superior command and most
19 of the time this was done verbally and occasionally the chief of artillery
20 would come personally, the chief of the artillery of the brigade,
21 Mr. Grajic and these targets were mostly those from which firing was
22 opened -- fire was opened by Muslim forces on our targets.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Since I was listening instead of looking, there was a
24 written message from our transcribers please to slow down for the record.
25 As you know the transcribers express themselves with writing, rather than
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 speaking. Could you please, not only for the interpreters, but also for
2 those who have to transcribe whatever is said in this courtroom, slow down
3 a bit.
4 Please proceed.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Golic, you told us that you received targets for your battery.
7 Could you tell us, you personally, did you know which targets they were?
8 A. Considering that I was practically in the battery the only one who
9 really had the military specialty, the relevant military specialty, the
10 battery commander was a late Mr. Orasanin and his deputy was
11 Milorad Karicki from Rogatica and --
12 Q. I have asked you something else.
13 A. I have to tell you that I was asked and I always knew these
14 targets considering because that was what I was qualified for.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, one part of
16 what the answer -- what the witness said has not been translated, which is
17 not in the transcript. I don't think that something that is very
18 important -- that is essential. I am just saying this for the booth.
19 Thank you. I don't think it is essential.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A part of an answer has not been transcribed
21 when you, Ms. Pilipovic, subsequently asked the witness to answer to the
22 question or is there another. Could you please indicate page what and
23 what lines?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was just before, but it
25 isn't very important, Mr. President. I will check if it is necessary by
1 listening to the tape. I don't think that it changes the meaning.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking what part, what page what line you were
3 referring to?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That was around line 10 on
5 page 21, I believe.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, you asked then the witness to
7 give a response to your question rather than what he said at that moment.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Golic, so you told us that considering your specialty and your
11 qualifications, you were the person qualified to work on mortars. Now, I
12 asked you whether you had a targeting schedule?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you tell us in 1992, what targets were the ones targeted by
15 your battery? And I am talking about targets on the other side.
16 A. Here, I just have to stress that before we arrived in the village
17 of Petrovici, we were in the village of Ivanici. We had completely
18 different targets than the ones we had in Petrovici. So do you want me to
19 tell you about the targets we had in Ivanici?
20 Q. Sir, can you tell us when you arrived in the village of Ivanici
21 what were the targets you had?
22 A. Our targets were the ones that the Muslim forces opened fire on us
23 on the members of our battalion located in Grbavica. So these targets
24 went from Zetra to the part of the Rudjer Boskovic Street through Kosevo
25 tunnel, and then the roundabout way for the Olympic Games, and then above
1 Velisici above Rudjer Boskovic Street two mortars were located, two
2 mortars of the Muslim army, and then following that line, along the
3 demarcation line on Grbavica, and then Brotherhood and Unity Bridge where
4 Muslims often tried to break through onto our territory --
5 MR. STAMP: To slow down. We have to get a good record of what
6 the witness is saying. And I think I should put on the record that what
7 we are having now is something which we have not been apprised of. We
8 have received three summaries of what this witness was to come to testify
9 about from the Defence. We have asked for further and better particulars.
10 And we were not advised that this witness was going to speak about mortar
11 targets or from where there were mortar positions within the confrontation
12 lines. Much of this we were not aware of that the Defence were going to
13 be eliciting this type of evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
15 MR. STAMP: I put that on the record. The witness is here. I
16 suppose his evidence will have to be heard. I would just ask that it be
17 clearly record what is said so that we can do whatever checks we can in
18 the short time we have.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that if you disagree and if you say that
21 you informed the Prosecution, I would like to see the summary -- yes.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, here is what
23 you saw the other day. And I would like to read it. "For each of the
24 witness, in a generic sense, each of the witness will testify on confusion
25 between military and civilian targets, the number, the existence of
1 protection means, et cetera." So it is clearly indicated that the
2 witnesses will testify, all the military men, on the importance of
3 military structures and their number and position obviously. This was
4 clearly stated. And I even said, in a generic sense, all weapons, small
5 arms fire, heavy weapons, et cetera. So this objection is simply intended
6 to waste precious time whereas this formal indication was in the hands of
7 Mr. Stamp and I saw it the other day, in the binder of Mr. Ierace, so this
8 is a strategy that is being applied. A bellicose strategy.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin is referring to the general
10 observation, the general outline valid for --
11 MR. STAMP: I don't know if it is appropriate that we receive
12 summaries of what a witness will speak of in a generic general global
13 omnibus sentence. We have received summaries with specifics to which this
14 witness is not testifying about. He is testifying about things which are
15 not in the summaries, three summaries that we have received from the
16 Defence in respect to this named witness. He is testifying to things
17 which we have not received in the summaries, even after we are asked for
18 further particulars in respect to this named witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You might have noticed that some issues, Mr. Stamp,
20 are mentioned as being the subject of testimony of all the witnesses, and
21 then further specification -- specifics are given in relation to each
22 witness. Let's -- we will consider the matter. Let's now proceed as you
23 suggested, but, Mr. Golic, may I ask you to slow down, at least so that we
24 have clear information in the transcript on your testimony.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Golic --
3 A. May I just complete my previous answer, please?
4 Q. Wait a moment, please. You first told us that the first
5 positions, or rather the targets that you had scheduled were in the area
6 of Kosevo; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us from which -- with which weapons and from which
9 positions was Kosevo targeted by the opposing side?
10 A. The opposing side in those days at the beginning had 120
11 millimetre mortars at those positions. It had two tanks and a mortar of
12 120 millimetres that was mounted on a lorry, maybe two, I am not sure,
13 which would come out of the tunnel, open fire and go back into the tunnel.
14 Q. Slow down, please.
15 A. And they also had two mortars mounted on a railway truck behind
16 the station building of Sarajevo's railway -- new railway station.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 So you also said that they had two mortars near the railway
19 station building. Can you tell us which one?
20 A. The new Sarajevo railway station near the turning tracks.
21 Q. Mr. Golic, let us be quite specific. You are talking about these
22 positions and distribution of artillery pieces of the BH Army, you are
23 referring to positions that you had as targets from Ivanici or Petrovici?
24 A. Ivanici.
25 Q. Thank you. When you listed the targets in the area of Kosevo, can
1 you tell us during which period of time was the BH Army acting or opening
2 fire from these positions?
3 A. This was the period from the beginning of our stationing in
4 Ivanici until the end of July 1992. And their actions were on a
5 continuous basis. And let me point out that we often registered the
6 intervals between their fire and the artillery pieces used.
7 Q. Mr. Golic, you told us that in September you were in Petrovici.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In 1992?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us in September 1992 which were your target
12 schedules, the targets being from where the Muslim forces were acting?
13 A. The maximum range was 6.300 metres. So our range couldn't go
14 further than the Jewish cemetery, the deployment of the Muslim army below
15 Zlatiste and very rarely did we open fire from August. Our battery didn't
16 really operate because observers of SFOR had already arrived. They
17 regularly visited our positions. They were familiar with everything so
18 that our operations were much rarer and far between.
19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, in September 1992, you were in Petrovici,
20 that is your battery was there. Can you tell us until when you remained
21 in that position?
22 A. We remained in that position until mid-October, around the 20th of
23 October, 1992.
24 Q. Can you tell us whether in October 1992 you were given a different
25 assignment. What happened to your battalion deployment?
1 A. We received information from representatives of the
2 Rogatica Brigade who came to seek assistance. Because after the 15th of
3 October, there was a very powerful offensive by Muslim forces from the
4 direction of Gorazde, against the Trnovo, Kosici et cetera, south of
5 Rogatica and the danger threatened that the Turkish army [Realtime
6 transcript read in error "turbish army"] could capture Rogatica. And we
7 were withdrawn to our area, and let me also point out that with the
8 arrival in Rogatica the battalion was disbanded and attached to the
9 Rogatica Brigade.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. STAMP: Just for clarification of the transcript. I see here
12 "turbish army" and I'm not sure if that is what I heard the witness say.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Turkish.
14 MR. STAMP: Oh, I see.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. That is how we called
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Golic, did you say that in 1992, the Rogatica Battalion was
20 A. It was reassigned to the Rogatica Brigade with different
21 assignments and it didn't exist as a separate battalion after we returned
22 to Rogatica.
23 Q. Thank you. Just one more piece of information in connection with
24 the Rogatica Brigade. Which corps did the Rogatica Brigade belong to? Do
25 you personally know that?
1 A. I don't know that. This was the light Rogatica Brigade. It was
2 separate. I think we belonged to the Zvornik Corps.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, when you were telling us about the
4 deployment of the artillery of the BH Army, do you know whether the BH
5 Army had in its possession infantry weaponry and did it use those weapons
6 against your battalion?
7 A. In my opinion, no. I know that the Muslim forces were armed, if
8 not better than us, than as well as we were with small arms and infantry
9 weapons. It is true that they had somewhat fewer artillery pieces, but
10 the situation changed when the barracks was -- the Marshal Tito Barracks
11 was handed over in Sarajevo, and I personally felt this on my own skin
12 because I was frequently exposed to their artillery fire.
13 Q. Mr. Golic, slow down, please.
14 Mr. Golic, my question was whether you had knowledge as to whether
15 the BH Army had in its possession infantry weapons and which kind of
17 A. Yes. They had automatic rifles, as we did, Pam anti-aircraft
18 machine-guns, M-70 machine-guns, M-84 machine-guns and they did not lag
19 behind us in terms of the infantry weaponry. I personally was able to
20 convince myself because I had a transaction in Sarajevo, that in the
21 Skenderija Street on the 1st of April 1992 we entered an apartment as
22 civilians. We were not members of the army at the time. We were looking
23 for --
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you at this moment.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Slow down.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is not only a matter of slowing down, but we
2 are under certainly time constraints in this court. Would you please
3 carefully listen to the question put to you by Ms. Pilipovic, answer that
4 question, and if Ms. Pilipovic needs further information, she will
5 certainly ask you for it. So the question was whether you had any
6 knowledge as to the possession of infantry weapons and which kind of
7 weapons. You started your answer by giving that information, but then you
8 continued about a transaction on the 1st of April, an apartment, et
9 cetera. If the source of your knowledge, if we need to know that,
10 Ms. Pilipovic will surely ask you for it.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found an apartment full of
12 infantry weapons.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. Let me give you an example. If I
14 would ask you whether you came to The Hague by car, and if you came by
15 plane, just say "I did not come by car." And if Ms. Pilipovic would like
16 to know what means of transportation you used, she will ask you, "if you
17 did not come by car, how did you come." Yes.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Golic, can you answer my question, please, on the basis of
21 your personal knowledge, from which positions the BH Army acted with
22 infantry weapons?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us what those positions were?
25 A. Positions towards the Jewish cemetery on the eastern side of the
1 Jewish cemetery where they frequently tried to break through our lines.
2 Then positions on the north bank of the Miljacka river, towards Vraca, so
3 from the assembly building, the Holiday Inn hotel, the Executive Council
4 building, all the large buildings, the Hotel Bristol, the area around the
5 Mechanical Engineering faculty towards the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge,
6 around the barracks of the former JNA which they frequently sought to
7 capture. So primarily around the Viktor Bubanj Barracks.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, in September 1992, so we are talking about
9 the period between September and October, can you tell us whether there
10 was combat in the area where you were?
11 A. In the area of the battery, no, of course. But in the area of the
12 battalion there was almost daily combat and attempts by the BH Army to
13 capture our positions and to make breakthroughs.
14 Q. Mr. Golic, when you listed the features, the buildings, which you
15 say were the positions held by the BH Army, can you tell us in your
16 opinion those buildings in relation to your positions, were they dominant
17 or were your positions dominant? Can you explain that?
18 A. Up to the Miljacka river, they were on the same level. And around
19 the Jewish cemetery, we were dominant and their positions above the
20 tobacco factory and the other positions from which they fired with
21 artillery weapons were dominant or on the same level. Their positions on
22 Kosevo Hill, I mean.
23 Q. Mr. Golic, at one point when you were listing these targets that
24 you knew were the military positions of the BH Army, where their artillery
25 and weapons were positioned, you also mentioned that they had mobile
1 railway trucks?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you tell us when you saw this and when the BH Army operated
4 from those railway trucks, if at all.
5 MR. STAMP: I am sorry. If might well be a matter of
6 interpretation. Did we have evidence of mobile railway trucks?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we had something about --
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tracks, but trucks.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mortars mounted on railway -- please find it
12 Mr. -- Please proceed Ms. Pilipovic.
13 MR. STAMP: Well --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I will assist you. I will try to find it.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Golic, could you please answer my question. When you say that
17 they used railway trucks --
18 A. We had a 60 millimetre mortar within the infantry companion and
19 there was some problems and I was invited to pull out the grenade from the
20 mortar. This was in June. And I personally saw that mobile truck behind
21 railway station, from the area of Vraca you can see it, behind the railway
22 station building being moved. How it was moved we couldn't tell. Along
23 the tracks it would be moved and then the 120-millimetre and 82-millimetre
24 mortar fire was opened from it. So a shell -- they didn't have many
25 shells. They would use two to four shells at a time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, page 25 line 18.
2 MR. STAMP: Yes, I found it. Thanks very much.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a witness, Puhalo Savo, who
4 was with me and saw this and who manned an 82 millimetre mortar.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Golic, can you tell us, when you mentioned this railway
7 station where you saw these trucks that were used to fire mortars from,
8 120- and 82-millimetre mortars, where was this station?
9 A. It is close to the Velisici settlement. It is where the trains
10 turn around. It is the end of the railway tracks.
11 Q. You told us that you were looking at this from the Vraca
13 A. Yes, just below of our command post, east of our command post.
14 Q. Mr. Golic, can you tell us what distance that would be, that is
15 the position of those trucks, and the position from where you were viewing
17 A. As the crow flies, in my opinion, not more than 3 kilometres. I
18 haven't looked at a map for a long time, so it wouldn't be more than three
19 kilometres, in my judgment.
20 Q. Mr. Golic, in view of the fact that you have indicated the spot
21 from which the BH Army used mortars to open fire on you --
22 A. That was just one position.
23 Q. We will come back to other positions. Tell us just how frequently
24 they opened fire?
25 A. They had some kind of a pattern, as if the artillery was given the
1 task to open fire at given intervals. This was on a daily basis, but we
2 knew roughly when they would open fire. And we sought to catch them when
3 they were most sensitive, and in artillery the most sensitive moment for
4 the opposing side is the moment when they open fire.
5 Q. Thank you. So you have just told us in answer to a question about
6 the position of the mobile railway trucks. While you were on the lines
7 held by your battery, did you have any personal knowledge or did you
8 personally see the BH Army using any other vehicles as mobile positions?
9 A. Yes. We had shifts in the battery. When a commander leaves,
10 somebody has to stand in for him. So I personally went to the observation
11 post and I saw a heavy-duty truck, I think it was a 13 ton truck that was
12 coming out of a tunnel at the deviation of Kosevo, as it was called. It
13 would fire and then quickly return to the tunnel. It was on a heavy-duty
14 vehicle without the closed -- it was a Fap-13 truck. F-A-P 13 truck.
15 Q. Mr. Golic, can you tell us regarding this truck that you called a
16 Fap-13. What weapon was mounted on it, if any?
17 A. Yes. 120-millimetre launcher was mounted on it. Because we have
18 observation means, binoculars, and so on, so that one could see this
20 Q. Mr. Golic, in the region of Kosevo, you explained that the BH Army
21 used a mobile mortar to fire from the tunnel. You also mentioned tanks.
22 A. I think they had two tanks, but I am not quite sure about that.
23 They were stationed and dug in and you could only see the barrels. On the
24 south-eastern slope of Hum towards Ciglana there is some earth dug up. It
25 is an area that has not been built up. Just above the
1 Rudjer Boskovic Street and to the right, above Velisici.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, did you personally see these tanks that you
3 mentioned around the Kosevo tunnel, was fire opened from those tanks?
4 A. I personally did not see any fire coming from those tanks because
5 I wasn't always on the observation post. But I did see them dug in and
6 our scouts showed them to us so that those of us who were drawing in the
7 targets could be as precise as possible.
8 Q. Mr. Golic, you have explained to us or rather clarified the
9 positions of your battalion. Can you tell us what the distance was
10 between the confrontation lines?
11 A. From our position, the confrontation lines were between 3.000 and
12 5.300 metres. The azimuth was 53.00 to 7.00.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if we look at the clock, could you
14 find a suitable moment for a break.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] This would be the most appropriate
16 moment, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Ms. Pilipovic, the head of the
21 section of interpretation services asked for copies of the witness
22 summaries for the booth because very often we find names in there or other
23 data which are of assistance for the interpreters -- and that is in most
24 cases. Would you please provide an update, that even the most recent
25 version, that always the interpreters are provided with the witness
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 MR. STAMP: Since we are on the issue of summaries, I wonder if I
4 would address the court very briefly in the absence of the witness --
5 JUDGE ORIE: If you could wait until the end of the testimony of
6 this witness, or if would influence the course of the evidence then of
7 course, we have to ask the witness to leave. If you would like to address
8 the court in a more general way on the issue, I would rather do it after
9 the witness has concluded his testimony.
10 MR. STAMP: May I ask that it be done after his
11 examination-in-chief because there are matters which I would ask the court
12 to consider and perhaps to give some direction.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We will then first continue the examination-in-chief
14 and then you will have an opportunity -- please prepare it in such a way
15 that we are spending just the time necessary, not more, and of course, not
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will
19 continue with further questions so that we can be more efficient.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
22 Mr. President.
23 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Witness, when you can, could you please answer with a yes or no if
2 this is possible. Would you be able to do that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you please tell us the elevated
5 dominating positions that were held by the Muslim forces in Sarajevo to
6 your knowledge, and at the time when you were in the Sarajevo area, very
7 briefly, please?
8 A. In the area of the Kosevo hill, around Zetra, towards the Kosevo
9 stadium, and from our part of the front above the Jewish cemetery they
10 were positioned towards the tower, and then on Mount Zlatiste when we
11 arrived, we later on took Zlatiste and blocked it and they were also on
12 the slopes of Mount Trebevic on Colina Kapa. So that means they were
13 above our positions.
14 Q. Thank you. You gave us a list of these positions. Could you tell
15 us the mountain in question --
16 A. Can I just add something?
17 Q. Wait. Wait a minute. You will add later. But now one thing at a
18 time, please. Could you please tell me the name of the mountain?
19 A. Trebevic.
20 Q. Thank you. Does the name Debelo Brdo mean anything to you?
21 A. Yes. But we --
22 Q. Just answer with a yes or no, please. If you can?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. This mountain, was it near your positions; yes or no?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell this Chamber who held these positions on Debelo Brdo?
2 A. Muslims.
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much for brief answers, Witness, and we
4 can continue in this way.
5 You mentioned Colina Kapa, do you remember; yes or no?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is there just one Colina Kapa or are there more than one, could
8 you please tell us?
9 A. There is the observatory on Colina Kapa. There is one Colina
11 Q. I am sorry. This name, can it be distinguished as Mala Colina
12 Kapa and Velika Colina Kapa, the big Colina Kapa and the small
13 Colina Kapa, is this it?
14 A. I don't know anything about this.
15 Q. Witness, I would like you to tell me if you can any other names of
16 locations, elevated positions that apart from those that you mentioned in
17 Sarajevo where Muslim troops were located, were positioned?
18 A. From our side, as what I wanted to add, was the Mojmilo hill,
19 which is throughout its length, and on the northern side, that was not our
20 part of the front.
21 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know the Zuc hill?
22 A. Yes. It is on the northern side.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you know who held it?
24 A. Well, Zuc went from one hands into other hands. At the end
25 Muslims held it, but I was not in that part of the front.
1 Q. Thank you?
2 A. It was not within our reach.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. If I ask you if you know it, you can just
4 answer with a yes or no, that would be good. In that case we will go much
5 more quickly. Do you know the Hum hill, please, yes or nor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us the times you were in Sarajevo, in the Sarajevo
8 area what forces occupied Hum?
9 A. Muslim forces.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I'm going to go to another subject,
11 the subject of instructions, did you ever receive, as a military person,
12 instructions that came from your superiors, from your hierarchy, regarding
13 civilians, yes or no, with respect to civilians, yes or no?
14 A. We were told in strict terms not to target anything of our own
15 free will and that we were not supposed to fire at civilians, to hold on
16 and respect Geneva Conventions and this went as a circular letter from the
17 command and it was read before all the soldiers. And we were threatened
18 by court-martials if we --
19 Q. I am going to interrupt you. I'm sorry, but I have to do it. You
20 say that this was read to you. Could you tell us briefly what was read to
22 A. Mostly these circular letters, orders, contained two elements.
23 First of all, was a recommendation of how we, as soldiers, should behave,
24 as far as we were concerned on the inside, and these second part,
25 contained how the Muslim side behaved, which we of course couldn't check.
1 We were not able to check that but these were the two parts of such
2 circular letters. And also that we were not supposed to respond in the
3 way that they fired, for instance, if they did something which was not
4 proper, we should not answer in the same way.
5 Q. Very well, Witness. You spoke of sanctions, but very briefly,
6 could you tell us what you were told at the time regarding the sanctions?
7 A. There was court-martial and it was in Zagrebacka Street, and the
8 soldiers we founded unpleasant. I know there were some comrades who
9 didn't like it and they rebelled because it was said that anybody who
10 broke any rules would go before the court-martial. I believe there was a
11 judge call Sipcic. I am not sure of this name. It was something like
13 Q. Witness, since you say there was a judge then you gave his name
14 and who was there, could you tell me, please, if you know, what could have
15 happened if there were violations, and I am saying if there had been
16 violations. It's hypothetical.
17 A. Probably according to the rules of military law. In the Army of
18 Republika Srpska, I don't know of any such violations as far as we are
19 concerned, as far as our side is concerned.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness.
21 Regarding the question -- I will come back to another point, but
22 regarding the question of the ammunition, did you receive any instructions
24 A. The instructions were --
25 Q. Yes or no, Witness.
1 A. Yes, yes, yes.
2 Q. Very well. Now, very briefly, Witness, what were these
3 instructions in relation to the use of ammunition?
4 A. To start with, there were no such instructions, but later on from
5 July onwards, it was ordered that ammunition should be saved, preserved,
6 and particularly when we are talking about mortar shells, and they should
7 be only in answering fire, in responding, in returning fire of Muslim fire
8 because there were already a lack of ammunition, particularly of mortar
10 Q. Thank you very much. I am just going to do a brackets here. We
11 will come back to this question. But you said "from our side." What do
12 you mean? Could you tell us about what is your ethnic origin, could you
13 tell us very briefly?
14 A. I am an atheist.
15 Q. That's very well. That's for your faith. What about your
17 A. I belong to the European culture.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you very much for your answer. It is a perfect
19 answer. I will come back to the question of ammunition now, Witness. You
20 spoke of tanks. Your positions, were they ever shelled by tank fire or
21 fired on by tank fire; yes or no?
22 MR. STAMP: Before the witness answers, although I encourage
23 him --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from the tanks, on the positions
1 of mortar batteries, the infantry --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is there --
3 MR. STAMP: Formally object.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I only see part of your objection in the
5 transcript, and I was listening to the French channel, as a matter of
6 fact. So could you please repeat, if possible, I think it is a rather
7 technical procedural issue, in the presence of the witness your objection.
8 MR. STAMP: Leading, however the words have been put in the
9 witness's mouth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. In general terms, asking for
11 a yes or no very often results in leading questions. On the other hand,
12 Mr. Stamp, if we try to find out whether the witness knows something --
13 well, knows about a certain subject, I would say that it would be a proper
14 way of establishing. If you say, do you know about ever being shelled,
15 yes or no, then that of course is not very leading. I mean, if you would
16 have not have asked the witness to answer with a yes or no, the question
17 would have been, I would say, appropriate.
18 What Mr. Piletta-Zanin is seeking, as a matter of fact, is to get
19 short answers. And I think that's, under the circumstances, not
20 prohibited. Therefore, I noticed that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when you are
21 touching upon subjects where we -- where the yes or the no would not lead
22 the witness, but rather insist on short answers, I will allow you to do
23 that. But please keep in mind that if we touch upon a subject where the
24 yes or a no would result in leading the witness, you should refrain from
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly, thank you,
2 Mr. President.
3 MR. STAMP: I wasn't objecting necessarily or solely to the yes or
4 no part, but solely: "Were your positions ever shelled by tank fire? " I
5 submit that that is a leading question. He would have asked if they were
6 attacked and by what, that would have been a way of going about very
7 quickly without leading.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you are going to do without leading, you should do
9 that. On the other hand, whether positions were ever attacked, yes, I
10 think the witness has testified already that several positions were
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. I am
13 just going to go to another subject.
14 Q. Witness, you spoke to us about these mobile mortars, you called
15 them F-A-P, Fap. And they were mounted on the platforms for firing, do
16 you remember that, yes or no?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. With what frequency these military vehicles fired from Muslim
21 positions when you, obviously, you were stationed in the Sarajevo area?
22 A. To start with, on a daily basis during a particular period during
23 the day, I said that we more or less registered or recorded their firing,
24 and we already knew during which period of time they would operate, they
25 would fire. And they had that very precisely.
1 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. These objects, were they very
2 mobile; yes or no?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Witness, were you, yourself, or members of your unit, were you
5 able to see these objects when weapons were fired from the opposing side?
6 A. Yes. On two occasions I saw that.
7 Q. Thank you very much. How many times were you able to see this?
8 A. Personally, twice.
9 Q. Thank you very much. Since you saw that on two occasions, next to
10 which object and what I mean is facility, building, another thing, where
11 these objects were stationed from which the fire was opened?
12 A. Left to the Kosevo tunnel, west from the Kosevo tunnel.
13 Q. Was it near houses? Was it in an urban area or any other?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you personally know persons,
16 military or civilian, who may have been wounded as a result of the attack
17 which -- attacks firing which was launched from these mobile objects?
18 A. No. No, not in this case. No.
19 Q. Thank you very much. In general, do you know people or persons
20 who were injured as a result of a shell attack?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Were these military people or civilians? What can you
23 tell us, very briefly, please.
24 A. Soldiers, in this case.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you tell us about the firing that
1 originated from the other side, and when the attacks occurred, what can
2 you tell us about the number of shells which landed on your positions?
3 A. I told you that they didn't fire more than two or three
4 projectiles on different positions, so mostly it would be one or two that
5 would land during a certain period of time.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You just told us that you -- they didn't fire more
8 than two or -- and what did you then say? You said two --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two to four, two from two different
10 weapons. And correction, that would be when they were not attacking and
11 when they were attacking, then it would be more intense. That was what
12 was permanent.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I heard on the French channel two to 4, where I see
14 on the English channel two or three.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President
16 Q. Witness, so your testimony is that when the battery opened fire
17 one would expect four successive firing in a very brief period of time,
18 grenades falling in a very brief period of time. Is that how we are to
19 understand your answer?
20 A. I didn't understand the question.
21 Q. I am going to rephrase it. You are talking about two to four
22 shots, are you talking about salvo? Are you saying when the opposing side
23 opened fire was it in salvos or was it two, three, four firing, close
25 A. Yes. They were in hurry.
1 Q. Thank you. Why were they in a hurry?
2 A. Because we opened fire on them.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Are you telling us that you returned fire,
4 you opened fire in response to enemy fire?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. According to what you were taught, militarily, is it
7 legitimate to open fire in response, to return fire even when it came from
8 the city?
9 A. For me, that's normal.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, now I would like to come back to
11 another line of questioning. Could You please tell me if your battalion,
12 as far as you know, had ever, since you were in charge of mortars, had
13 ever destroyed a cultural facilities or symbolic facilities? For
14 instance, highly religious facilities or objects.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. I would like to come back to the area of Grbavica,
17 please. What was the route that you had to take if, say, a civilian was
18 wounded, hypothetically speaking, in such-and-such a hospital, what were
19 the routes, open routes, please, bearing in mind the neighbourhood that
20 you knew, Grbavica?
21 A. Yes. Well, since the Muslim positions were also in Debelo Brdo
22 all these routes was covered by snipers and so on. The only thing that
23 was safe, soldiers in trenches were safe, that is, in the houses on the
24 front line. This route was the route which is even used today, alongside
25 Vraca. So when we are talking about bringing out our wounded, it would be
1 alongside Vraca and then there was a coffee restaurant, shop called Stana
2 and then there would be a route across Trebevic, and it was always covered
3 by snipers, exposed to snipers. So we had to use deviation through
4 Tvrdimici and Mount Jahorina. Our first hospital was in Pale.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, what you tell us here, is this also
6 valid for the civilians? You spoke about soldiers who were wounded, but
7 what happened to civilians, please?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Witness, you spoke to us of snipers. How did you
10 react, how did you respond, militarily speaking, to a sniper attack, if
11 you were able to react, to respond, very briefly, please?
12 A. We tried to just speed up in a vehicle that we were in, to drive
13 more quickly.
14 Q. Yes. This is a strategy of acceleration, that is fleeing, escape.
15 But if you had attacks against you, in principle, in general, how were you
16 reacting to the risk, to the danger opposed by sniper nests? Did you try
17 and take them out to eliminate them?
18 A. Yes. There was fire opened.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know if sniper positions, whoever
20 they were targeting on your positions, did they exist in other locations
21 apart from the mount that you mentioned earlier?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Very well. Could you tell us, precisely if you know, what were
24 these locations? And I am of course talking about the BH side.
25 A. Colina Kapa, Debelo Brdo, as you said. Those snipers were on the
1 opposite side of the Miljacka river, positioned on the Executive Council
2 building. The former BH Assembly building. The Holiday Inn Hotel --
3 Q. Slowly please, for the transcript.
4 A. As I was saying, on the Executive Council building, the Assembly
5 building of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Holiday Inn Hotel, on the
6 Bristol Hotel, positions on prominent buildings, on the north bank of the
7 Miljacka river. And they were pointing directly towards our positions so
8 that it was very dangerous to take the transit route via Vraca, and our
9 only route was up the Vraca Street, that's how we called it. I don't know
10 the real name.
11 Q. Thank you. Witness, you just spoke about high-rise buildings and
12 those high-rise buildings, what could you tell us about them? Were they
13 military buildings? Civilian buildings? Official buildings? Apartment
14 buildings or whatever?
15 A. There were no military buildings there. These were mostly
16 high-rise buildings and large apartment buildings, and the hotels that I
17 mentioned, and the assembly and the Executive Council, that is buildings
18 of prewar political institutions.
19 Q. Thank you. What was the frequency with which these nests were
20 used, of course, during the period that you spent in Sarajevo?
21 A. Nonstop.
22 MR. STAMP: Perhaps before we go into asking the witness about
23 frequency a foundation can be laid. Because we are hearing the witness
24 was posted well in Sarajevo at positions, one out of the range of
25 120-millimetre mortar of 6.000 metres and another at 3.500 metres. If
1 perhaps this personal knowledge could be inquired upon.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like
4 this objection to be formally rejected for the following reason: Is that
5 is what this witness said and knew is that he couldn't use such a route
6 because it was under fire, one increased the speed. So one could deduce
7 from that that he was familiar with the phenomenon and that it is quite
8 factual his testimony.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least when he was driving in a car by and if
10 you are talking about frequency, of course, you might -- could you -- no,
11 the objection is -- well, you give an explanation of why the witness knows
12 and that is an explanation that could be the right one and could perhaps
13 explain part of the objection, but perhaps not all of it.
14 Could I ask you, when you answered that question about the nonstop
15 use of the sniper nests, could you please tell us how, on the basis of
16 what, you can tell us that it was nonstop used?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of personal experience,
18 because whatever moved was targeted. And the positions of our forces was
19 something that I personally toured as an observer. And I was warned by
20 our members of the army that as we crossed from one trench to another or
21 one building to another, where we should run across without hesitating,
22 without stopping because they knew from where our troops were being
24 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand you well that whenever you moved in
25 that area from one position to another one, snipers were always active, at
1 least you took that into account that they were active all the time. Is
2 that how I have to understand your testimony?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Witness, you spoke to us a moment ago about the official buildings
7 of the Presidency. Could you describe that building very briefly? Was it
8 a ground floor building or did it have several storeys or whatever?
9 A. You probably mean the Executive Council, not the Presidency.
10 Q. Yes, I apologise. We are talking about the Executive Council.
11 You are quite right.
12 A. It is a dominant building in the part of Sarajevo known as Marijn
13 Dvor, behind the Vrbanja bridge. I think it has 13 floors, I am not 100
14 per cent certain of that, but I think it has 13 storeys and it is dominant
15 in relation to our positions in Miljacka and Vraca.
16 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, if you know personally, how
17 this building was used during the period you spent there? Was it used for
18 strictly civilian purposes or, vice versa, for military purposes?
19 A. It was not used at all for civilian purposes. That is where the
20 snipers were positioned.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 How do you know that?
23 A. I said that when I visited our positions down there, the first
24 warning I received was to take shelter whenever I was exposed to the view
25 from the building of the Executive Council. And I personally experienced
1 on two occasions next to the school, the Radojka Latic school, you can
2 feel the bullet. It doesn't whistle, but because it's so close, you feel
3 it whizzing by.
4 Q. Thank you. Witness, since you are talking about the snipers, what
5 can you tell us in connection with that problem, regarding the fears, the
6 apprehensions of the civilian population living in Grbavica, if you know,
7 of course? But very briefly.
8 MR. STAMP: Objection, irrelevant.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.
10 Thank you.
11 Q. Witness, you spoke about your visits. Did you -- do you know
12 whether there were special structures in place to allow you to move and be
13 less exposed to danger?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Very briefly, those protection structures for your
16 army, what did they consist of?
17 A. There would be a driver, an escort, somebody who would guide us to
18 our positions.
19 Q. Thank you. Were there any fixed means of protection and not
20 mobile ones?
21 A. Yes. Some sort of screens were put up to screen from view. They
22 weren't really obstacles that could prevent a bullet from going through,
23 but there was such screens at Vraca and Zlatiste and so on.
24 Q. This type of protection that you have just mentioned, were they
25 also used to protect the civilian population, this type of barriers?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue this line of questioning, we heard
2 a lot of evidence on these issues. And is this contested by the
3 Prosecution that such -- that such screens or other ways of protecting
4 either military or civilians did exist on the Serbian-held side?
5 MR. STAMP: Not contested.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the -- especially when it is not
7 contested, unless it has a specific meaning, as we heard one of the last
8 days in respect of specific lines of view. Please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 Q. Witness, you spoke to us a moment ago about buildings of cultural
11 or strategic importance in Sarajevo. Did you imply within that group,
12 museums, for instance, yes or no?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Witness, according to your personal experience and
15 concerning the events that occurred on the opposing side, what could you
16 tell us in connection with museums that you know from personal experience?
17 A. We did not target those facilities, but I could mention an
18 example. After the Marshal Tito Barracks was captured, when the Muslim
19 side at the beginning of June, I think it was in June, took control of
20 that barracks, sometime around then into the yard of the National Museum
21 in Sarajevo, it is a big building and in the middle there is a garden.
22 And something targeted us, fire was opened on our positions. And our
23 scouts couldn't establish what it was. And they called us in to see what
24 it was, and in our judgment, we established that into that yard of the
25 museum, in the middle, we couldn't see that because it is impossible to
1 see from our positions, a mortar, a 120-millimetre mortar had been
2 positioned there which had opened fire from that position on the targets
3 on our side, at Vraca, and one shell even hit our position in Ivanici, and
4 we wanted to respond but we received orders not to open fire on such
5 facilities and later on they also stopped firing from there because we
6 didn't respond.
7 Q. We have a purely procedural problem. Will you please take off
8 your headphones and put them in front of you and don't look at the screen.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Don't look at the screen
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I also ask whether the witness would put on
12 his headphones again.
13 [Interpretation] Do you understand French?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then please take care that the
16 transcript is not on the screen of the witness and ask him to take his
17 headphones off.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have some interruptions in my
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take them off.
21 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I make this
23 objection, it is because I think I heard in one of the two languages that
24 I am listening to and it is not English, the word "stela" which is a
25 tombstone. When one knows the importance that the Prosecution attaches to
1 shelling of cemeteries and funerals, I must say that I don't see in the
2 English transcript the word "stela."
3 There is the mention of the garden.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the interpreters whether they heard the
5 word just -- I see some nodding. Is that correct?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then could we -- do I understand that this was used
8 when the witness described the courtyard?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, it was very fast, and he mentioned
10 something being in the middle of the courtyard. I think so. "Stela."
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put on your headphones again,
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
14 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is extremely difficult for
16 me to follow what I have to do. And I am really -- I really do apologise
17 to the interpreters. And ask them to be precise to use all the words
18 used, and that all the words should be found in the transcript, be it
19 English or French.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in the answer of the interpreters, they also said that
22 it went very very quickly. So I take it that the interpreters do their
23 utmost best to translate every single word they hear, and at the same time
24 they have a very difficult task if one is speaking too quickly.
25 Could you please put on your headphones again. We had a small
1 problem. The interpreters did not catch the word "stela" you used as
2 being in the courtyard -- in the court of the museum. This is also caused
3 because of the speed with which you and Mr. Piletta-Zanin are speaking.
4 So may I, again, ask you to slow down so that the interpreters can follow
5 you. Yes.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Witness, you spoke to us about instructions that were given to you
9 not to respond to these provocative shots. Who were the -- who were the
10 person or persons who gave you those instructions? Could you tell this
11 Chamber that?
12 A. The chief of artillery, Grajic told us.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, did you respect those instructions;
14 yes or no?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you mentioned a moment ago the
17 Kosevo hill. Is that the same name that is given to the hospital, Kosevo
18 Hospital; yes or no?
19 A. Yes, only it is on the other side of the road.
20 Q. Thank you. So when speaking of the Kosevo Hospital and the
21 problems linked to the artillery, could you tell us anything on the basis
22 of your personal experience, please? I am referring to the whole of the
23 Kosevo area.
24 A. So the Kosevo hill is to the left of the road to Vogosca. The
25 football stadium is there too, and the Kosevo sports centre. And on the
1 right-hand side are the hospital facilities, on the east. The hospital
2 facilities which cover a large area.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. But my question was, do you know whether fire
4 was ever opened from the area known as the Kosevo Hospital area?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Could you tell us --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, first of all, your question
8 to the witness was not whether they ever received fire fired from the
9 Kosevo hospital, but you asked him whether he could tell anything on the
10 basis of his personal experience about the whole of the Kosevo area. So
11 that is not -- and your next question was leading. So would you refrain
12 from that.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I am
15 Q. Witness, do you know where the Kosevo Hospital is situated; yes or
17 A. Yes. The whole hospital complex.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Could you describe for us very briefly this
20 A. The complex begins with macillo school of medicine, traumatology,
21 it is a large complex of several buildings.
22 Q. Could you say, it is hundreds of metres or one kilometre? How
23 large is it in area?
24 A. It is about 800 metres long, and about 100 metres wide.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, what could you tell us regarding this zone
1 that we are speaking of, and concerning the war itself, what you yourself
2 knew about it?
3 A. They used that complex too, to fire at our positions, not always,
4 but during some kind of a ceasefire when they wanted us to respond. And
5 we had strict instructions not to respond. So they would use a mortar
6 shot or some provocative fire was opened most frequently at times of
7 signed ceasefires.
8 Q. Thank you. Could you indicate the type of military targets that
9 you targeted in Sarajevo?
10 A. In addition to those that I have mentioned, that is their
11 artillery positions, we also hit the centres where they rallied their
12 infantry forces and from which they attacked our positions, and that is,
13 in the first place, the Jewish cemetery. Their positions on the other
14 side of the Miljacka river, around the bridge called Brotherhood and
15 Unity, where they frequently tried to break through our lines, then their
16 forces were also amassing in a school and we had a report, it was in
17 Buca Potok, around the Pero Kosoric square and around the Viktor Bubanj
18 barracks where particularly at the beginning they continually sought to
19 capture the barracks, and on the map I think it was the Hrasno settlement,
20 I think. I am not too sure about that. I would be able to tell you
21 better on a map. And Pavle Goranin settlement, and of course the Mojmilo
22 hill. In addition to what I already said, that is, Zlatiste, Debelo Brdo,
23 Colina Kapa, and of course the Kosevo complex.
24 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. You mentioned a school --
25 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you how much time you would still need
1 approximately, because I -- if possible, I would try and see whether we
2 could conclude with this witness today just short before the weekend. How
3 much time would you still need?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at this rhythm
5 and without further interruptions, three minutes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you finish by 12.00. Please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness, very quickly, yes or no, please, you mentioned a school a
9 moment ago. Do you know whether that school was emptied of its civilian
10 occupants; yes or no?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, with regard to what is known as the
13 cemetery called Jewish, this cemetery itself -- I am not talking about the
14 zone, but the cemetery itself enclosed within its walls, to what side did
15 it belong at the time that you were there?
16 A. It was in between. It was a zone in between. We were to the west
17 and the Muslim positions were to the east. This separated us, the
18 distance being 15 to 50 metres.
19 Q. You're just telling me, Witness, that the cemetery itself used as
20 termed was a buffer zone between the two armies; is that your testimony?
21 A. Yes, but let me clarify. We didn't enter the Jewish cemetery at
22 all, and the Muslims did use it to attack our positions. They used the
23 monuments as personal protection and shelter.
24 Q. Thank you. And my very last question in two parts: Was there a
25 synagogue at the bottom of the so-called Jewish cemetery, a chapel?
1 A. A chapel, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. And this building that you call "chapel," which force
3 occupied it, if any?
4 A. No one held it. It was closer to our positions.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,
7 Mr. President. Thank you, Witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, I take it that you would have a
9 possibility to address the Chamber, perhaps better in the absence of the
11 MR. STAMP: Notwithstanding it will be very brief --
12 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. Usher, to escort the witness out
13 of the courtroom just for a short while.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. We received in September
17 the summary for this witness and it was very brief, and with your leave,
18 Mr. President, I think it ought to be placed on the record because we are
19 going to ask that some sort of remedy be imposed. "The witness was a
20 member of reserve JNA forces and as a member of the Rogatica battalion he
21 participated in support of JNA units in protection of barracks in
22 Faletici." May I indicate that Faletici is north-west of the centre of
23 Sarajevo city. "This was when JNA in April and at the beginning of May
24 tried to protect soldiers at military --"
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, could you please slow down. That is what
2 the interpreters ask us.
3 MR. STAMP: The reference to Faletici when it goes on: "When JNA
4 in April and beginning of May tried to protect soldiers at military
5 service as well as the material means in surrounding barracks by Muslim
6 paramilitary formations. At the beginning of May, his unit was disposed
7 in the area of Lukavica and Vraca where he was a witness of Muslim attacks
8 with infantry weapons and ABiH sniping attacks from the building of the
9 Executive Council, Bristol Hotel, Holiday Inn Hotel."
10 THE INTERPRETER: I apologise, but it cannot be read at this
11 speed. It's impossible to follow. We don't have a text.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Give a reading to me ask then I will read it slowly
13 for you.
14 MR. STAMP: I will read it reasonably slow as of now. "At the
15 beginning of May his unit was disposed in the area of Lukavica and Vraca
16 where he was a witness of Muslim attacks with infantry weapons and ABiH
17 sniping attacks from the building of Executive Council, Bristol Hotel,
18 Holiday Inn Hotel, against the positions of his unit on separation line,
19 Vrbanja Bridge-Zlatiste."
20 Observations. It makes no reference of the major part of his
21 testimony which involves mortaring, being in a mortar position and
22 observing mortar positions. Second observation, it indicates that the
23 position of his unit was at the Vrbanja Bridge-Zlatiste which is on the
24 Miljacka river. We are -- we learned today that his units were positioned
25 in Petrovici and Ivanici many kilometres from the centre of Sarajevo. My
1 learned colleague said that he had indicated that the witnesses would give
2 general evidence about a variety of things. The letter I have seen as
3 translated which is a long letter and it would not serve any purpose to
4 read it, merely indicates, and not in respect to this particular named
5 witnesses, but in respect to other witnesses, it indicates generally that
6 the witnesses may testify about a whole host of matters listed which
7 occupied more than one page. There is no way, it is submitted, Mr.
8 President, that we can prepare for any witness with this type of summary.
9 And I raise it because we are going to have another week, next
10 week, I know the remedy could not be that this witness will be stopped
11 from testifying, however, I would ask that precise directions be given to
12 the Defence in respect to these summaries so that proper preparations can
13 be made in respect to them. There is one worrying part, and I am quite
14 sure it was not an intended thing from Defence, but there seems to be a
15 misdescription when he says that his unit was on the Miljacka river and we
16 find that it was thousands of kilometres away. That is what I ask the
17 court and perhaps issue directions as to the nature of these summaries.
18 What is worse is that we did write the Defence asking them for
19 further and better particulars because we could not see the relevance of
20 the indictment issues from this summary. And they did send a later
21 summary which was not any more helpful and subsequently another summary
22 which was in the same terms as what I just read.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is not the first time that we
24 hear this objection. I would rather first conclude the testimony of this
25 witness and we will see whether -- I don't know how much time you would
1 think you would need, Mr. Stamp. What I want to prevent is that because
2 of procedural battles, that we have to hurry when we examine a witness,
3 which is always a bad thing to do. How much time do you think you would
5 MR. STAMP: I will try, but I could not guarantee that I will be
6 finish by the close of today's proceedings.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you think that it might be possible to conclude
8 today, I would rather give an opportunity to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to respond
9 after we finished with this witness. Let's first see how far we come.
10 Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please escort -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not wish
12 to respond, but I must mention something. I said on two occasions, and
13 once I believe in your office, but I said it earlier, I told earlier to
14 the representatives of the Prosecution that our letter was generic and
15 that for all the soldiers, we will do the same. I just said it before the
16 intervention of Mr. Stamp by saying that knowing very well, and now, as if
17 my intervention never happened, and this was done in English.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may escort the witness into the courtroom.
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do agree that you indicated that you would do
20 the same. Finally, I think it is up to the Chamber to give guidance to
21 the parties of what they are expected to do. We will consider the matter
22 at a later stage and what we will also do is carefully, perhaps then
23 compare the summaries with what actually was the testimony of the witness
24 and see whether this is relevant for any guidance or decision to be taken.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp. You will now be examined
2 by counsel for the Prosecution.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I please have
4 the transcript on the screen in English?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think there is no reason to deny you access
6 to the --
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the most important thing for you to look
10 at the transcript as specifically is, that you stop talking when the text
11 is still moving. Don't try to read too much and try to concentrate on the
12 questions and on your answers, rather than checking the transcript.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. When was the first time you spoke to any member of the Defence
19 team about your testimony in this case?
20 A. Sometime in May this year, that is 2002, there was Mrs. Prodanovic
21 from Srbinje and earlier we had had a contact in relation with the post in
22 the company that I worked for and she wanted to meet me and talk to me.
23 Q. You met her for the first time in May of this year, is that what
24 you are saying?
25 A. I didn't meet her for the first time in May. We met before in
1 Rogatica at the court between the court case, between the post office in
2 Rogatica and the transport company.
3 Q. I am going to ask you to listen, Witness, very carefully to what I
4 ask and answer simply to what I ask. I didn't ask about the circumstances
5 in which you met or where it was that you met. I want to know when was
6 the first time, when?
7 A. In May. In relation to this testimony.
8 Q. Did you meet her before May in relation to anything else?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is a
10 mistake in the transcript and I have to state it. I believe that what was
11 said in the answer of the witness, there was the segment that should have
12 come before the question that I am reading at the moment, 63.14, I believe
13 that the question of Mr. Stamp was [In English] "When was the first time"
14 [Interpretation] et cetera and so on in relation to this testimony and so
15 on. And it is the other way around. This is not what the witness said.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, but it was a response to what the witness -- let
17 me just ask you. When did you for the first time meet Ms. Prodanovic, for
18 the first time in your life?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2001.
20 JUDGE ORIE: What month?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was sometime in June, in June, in
22 the summer.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That is the first time you met her ever in your life,
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And that was at court. She
1 was the lawyer for the opposing side.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you then discuss testimony to be given in
3 The Hague or not?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We just -- we just spoke to
5 each other.
6 JUDGE ORIE: When did you for the first time speak with
7 Ms. Prodanovic on a potential testimony in this court?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In May 2002. In 2002.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please try to give your answers just as you
10 did it right away. Listen carefully to the answer, answer the question,
11 and if further information is needed, you certainly will be asked for.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis. [Sic]
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. When you spoke about this case in May 2002, did you give her a
15 statement which was taken in writing?
16 A. I am sorry. I seem to be having interference and I didn't hear
17 this question at all.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist and see whether
19 there is -- whether it is the line or the headphone. If there will be
20 again interference, please tell me so that we can try to fix it. Is it
21 better now? Please proceed, Mr. Mundis [sic]
22 MR. STAMP:
23 Q. When you met and spoke with her about this case in May 2002, did
24 you give a written statement to her?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you give a written statement to any member of the Defence team
2 in respect to your testimony before today?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When was this?
5 A. 11th or 12th of September in Rogatica in 2002.
6 Q. When you gave that written statement, did you tell the Defence
7 about what you were occupied with doing in Sarajevo in 1992?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you tell them about your experience as a mortar man in
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you tell them about your experience as mortar man in
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I would like to take you to your experiences in Sarajevo.
16 Firstly, you have told us that you experienced sniping when you were
17 travelling in the vicinity of the Miljacka river. Where were you
18 travelling to?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not the
21 testimony of this witness, that he was fired at when --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It misrepresents the testimony of the witness,
23 Mr. Stamp. Would you please --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed. Thank you.
25 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
1 Q. Where were you when you experienced sniping in the Grbavica area?
2 A. Most frequently I witnessed the positions in a vehicle which
3 brought food to our soldiers on the front line. The driver of that
4 vehicle was Mico Obradovic from Rogatica --
5 Q. I am going to ask you again to listen to the question and just
6 answer it simply. So you travelled on a vehicle to Rogatica which was
7 delivering food; is that what you are saying? Sorry, to Grbavica, which
8 was delivering food, is that your evidence?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you travel from your -- the positions where your mortar units
11 were located?
12 A. Occasionally. Not always.
13 Q. What was your role on that vehicle?
14 A. To visit and to find out about our positions of our infantry and
15 fortifying these -- or -- no.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter corrects herself.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Establishing the positions from
18 which the Muslims were firing, which means they were reconnaissance tasks.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. And in the vicinity of the river, the Miljacka river in Grbavica,
21 you were able to see the positions from where the Muslims were firing?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question isn't very clear,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Can I first hear your -- again your answer -- you
25 answered the question. Could you repeat the answer.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. From the front side,
2 from the frontal positions on the Miljacka side. Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, not all of them. It was
5 impossible to see all.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. Did your mortar unit have a target commander?
9 A. Well, he didn't choose targets, he only received orders and passed
10 them on to be carried out when there was firing. So he was the battery
11 commander. He did not himself determine, he didn't decide on the targets
13 Q. From --
14 A. May I add?
15 Q. No, you may not. You answered the question. From whom did he
16 receive his commands to fire at targets?
17 A. Most frequently from the chief of artillery and also from the
18 commander of the battalion in emergency situations.
19 Q. Did the chief of artillery and the commander of the battalion have
20 units that were responsible to observe and locate the targets?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did your battery crew use map coordinates to fire on these
24 A. Yes. But most of the time on the map you cannot see the height of
25 the building or where the fire is coming from.
1 Q. Apart from going to Grbavica during this conflict, apart from
2 accompanying persons delivering food, did you go there with any other
3 group of persons?
4 A. Yes.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MR. STAMP:
7 Q. Do you know the name of Vlasko in respect to the Jewish cemetery?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Have you ever met him?
11 A. Twice.
12 Q. Did your units in the Grbavica area cooperate with him and his
13 units in the defence of the Bosnian Serb positions?
14 A. Yes. At the time he was located somewhere to -- more southern
15 from us. South of us.
16 Q. Did you coordinate with Aleksic with respect to attacks on Bosnian
17 Muslim positions?
18 A. No. Not we personally. Perhaps he gave some targets that were
19 then determined and decided on by the chief of artillery.
20 Q. Do you know where Aleksic got his ammunition from?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know who was his commander, if any, in the Bosnian Serb
24 A. I don't know, but I think he only had his Chetnik unit that was
1 Q. But you said you don't know?
2 A. No.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. In what way did you cooperate with Aleksic in the defence of the
6 Serb cause, so to speak, could you tell us?
7 A. Personally. We were just on the same side. There was no
9 Q. The commander of the Rogatica Battalion, was that Rajko Kusic?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Who was the commander of the battalion?
12 A. Radomir Furtula, former captain of the JNA.
13 Q. Was Rajko Kusic --
14 A. I am sorry. Radomir --
15 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Mr. President, since these names will be very
17 useful for us later on in the further examination, it would be good if it
18 was correctly put in the transcript, the first one wasn't mentioned, and
19 the second one isn't put in correctly.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second one is Radomir Furtula.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP:
23 Q. Was Rajko Kusic a commander of any unit or any military formation
24 that you know about?
25 A. Sometime in May there was conflict in Rogatica and Rajko became
1 the commander of the Rogatica Brigade, light Rogatica Brigade which had
2 nothing to do with us. Rajko belonged to a different corps. The middle
3 of October that was.
4 Q. I see. Your battalion was formally a part of the
5 Sarajevo Romanija Corps until October, is that what you are saying?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And after October you were subordinated to another corps?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was it a corps or a brigade you were subordinated to?
10 A. As part of the Zvornik Corps, but it was the Rogatica Brigade.
11 Q. And was Rajko Kusic the commander of the Rogatica Brigade?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you receive commands to fire at tanks?
14 A. Once, perhaps.
15 Q. Well, let's be certain about that. "Once, perhaps," what does
16 that mean? Did you or did you not receive any command to fire at tanks
17 with your mortars?
18 A. We received the order then.
19 Q. Can I take it from your answer is that you received commands to
20 fire at tanks on at least one occasion?
21 A. Yes. Yes. But it is obvious that mortar shells can't do much
22 because what has to be used there is cumulative and not instant highly
23 explosive ammunition.
24 Q. Can I take it from your answer that it will not be militarily
25 useful to fire the mortar at the tank, you will not achieve a military
1 purpose if you fire the mortar at the tank; is that your evidence?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to
3 this question. I object to this question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you take your headphones off, please, and
5 could -- Mr. Usher, could you switch off the transcript.
6 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I object to this
8 question for the simple reason that there could be many ways of using a
9 tank with an open territory --
10 MR. STAMP: Could we have an objection expressed in terms which
11 does not indicate any answer?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please make your objection such
13 that --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. There are many
15 ways of using such-and-such a weapon, such-and-such a mean, theoretically,
16 this could be protected, or it could be -- I just wanted to proceed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The beginning of your objection, your
18 explanation to the objection is that the question is perhaps not clear or
19 that different answers could be given to that question. If you object
20 against the question, you should use the terms, say, well, the question is
21 not clear or it could be given different answers, so in an abstract way
22 and not going into the matter itself. Please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I never said
24 that I was objecting because the question wasn't clear. I never said
1 JUDGE ORIE: I want on abstract terms the type of objection you
2 are raising.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. The way the
4 question was phrased isn't normal. What should be asked is in which
5 different situations, we can have all different situations where use of
6 such-and-such a weapon is perfectly legitimate. So is there such-and-such
7 a weapon that was opposed to him. So in a general terms this question is
8 not acceptable because it can imply many many different answers. Thank
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mainly, questions should not be given
11 possibility to give different answers -- let me just go back to the
12 question now.
13 The -- [Interpretation] The witness introduced by himself the
14 subject which is in the question at the moment, and perhaps you could
15 proceed, Mr. Stamp.
16 [In English] Well, perhaps after we finish this part of the
17 transcript. So in 15 seconds you may put on the transcript again. Not at
18 this very moment.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. I was asking Mr. Golic if I can take it from what you said earlier
22 that there was no military purpose in trying to neutralizing a tank with
23 mortar fire, is that a correct understanding of your evidence?
24 A. No. My expertise isn't up to that level, militarily speaking, but
25 the tanks were dug in and you could only fire with shells which had fuses
1 that were not instant, but that were delayed, but mostly we didn't receive
2 this order.
3 Q. You said that persons on your side of the lines, and including
4 yourself -- withdrawn.
5 Is it your evidence that persons on your side of the line
6 including yourself could see the movement of these one 120-millimetre
7 mortars in the vicinity of the railway tracks?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And in Kosevo they could be seen?
10 A. Yes, even better.
11 Q. Did you have communications in the area of your mortar battery by
12 way of field phone? Did you use field phones to communicate between your
13 mortar battery and your observers?
14 A. Only in the battery, and we had hand-held phones for urgent
15 communications in the case of a Muslim attack to be able to communicate
16 with those at the Jewish cemetery, but they were very rarely used.
17 Q. Your mortar batteries were able to fire on these artillery weapons
18 in Sarajevo while they were being set up?
19 A. Yes. I don't understand. While they were adjusted? What? I am
21 Q. Your answer --
22 A. When they were active?
23 Q. Do I understand your evidence to be that you could see them as
24 they moved and before they fired; is that your evidence?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, looking at the clock, I don't know, could
2 you when you move to your next subject indicate so we then could have a
3 break. Please proceed.
4 MR. STAMP: Maybe I could ask --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
6 MR. STAMP: Maybe I could move on to another subject briefly as
7 there may be something that we need to check.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you know there are certain limitations as far as
9 the tapes are concerned, so please proceed and try to find out.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. When you moved to Petrovici, what were your targets from
13 A. Quite different targets. The area of Debelo Brdo, Colina Kapa and
14 Zlatiste and below that. The rest was not within our range. And anyway
15 we opened fire very rarely because SFOR was there already.
16 Q. That is what I wanted to ask about. Do you mean SFOR or do you
17 mean UNPROFOR?
18 A. UNPROFOR in those days, yes.
19 Q. These were UNPROFOR military observers?
20 A. Yes. And they came to the separation lines and they regularly
21 toured our positions and checked whether there was any firing in relation
22 to the previous day in Petrovici.
23 Q. However, notwithstanding the fact that UNPROFOR were there, you
24 did fire but more -- but less frequently? I take it --
25 A. I said very rarely.
1 Q. And this was because of the presence of UNPROFOR military
3 A. No. Our lines had already been -- become stabilised and probably
4 some other battery fired in front of the Jewish cemetery. I don't know
5 that. But anyway, only in the case that we were fired upon from
6 Debelo Brdo.
7 Q. I just asked you if you fired only very rarely only because of the
8 presence of UNPROFOR observers, and your answer was "no."
9 May I ask you this as a last question: Did you say in answer to
10 your own counsel: "Our battery didn't really operate because observers
11 from SFOR had already arrived." Did you say that?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. That
13 is absolutely not what the witness said.
14 MR. STAMP: I am asking him --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is the question. You cannot
16 answer the question for the witness. If you object to a question, of
17 course, you are allowed to do so, but not by indicating what the answer
18 should be and that the question is wrong. I will check that during the
19 break. If there is any reason to say that you would not agree that this
20 is what the witness said or did not say, first of all, we can easily check
21 that in the tapes. So if you would like to check that, please do so. If
22 there is any reason to do so, even the Chamber might do it. But this is
23 not the way you can interfere in cross-examination.
24 Mr. Stamp, please repeat the question. And may I ask you not to
25 refer to counsel as "your counsel" because --
1 MR. STAMP: Yes. And I do apologise for that. That was out of
3 Q. Question, sir, yes or no, did you say this, did you say: "Our
4 battery didn't really operate because observers from SFOR had already
5 arrived. They had regularly visited our positions. They were familiar
6 with things, so that our operations were much rarer and far between."
7 The question is: Did you say so?
8 A. Not quite like that. It is very important in this case that we
9 didn't not open fire only because UNPROFOR was there. So it wasn't the
10 only reason. Even the English RAF had been there, we would have opened
11 fire if our lines had been attacked.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, are there other questions? I beg your
14 MR. STAMP: There are other questions but we could perhaps take
15 the break now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will have a break until 1.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.41 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I would rather whatever problems there might be, I
20 would rather continue at this very moment to see how far we come with the
21 witness and if there is any other issue relating to time or whatever, we
22 can address that later. Let's see how far we can come. Mr. Usher, can
23 you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue, Mr. Stamp.
1 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Mr. Golic, if you could clarify the issue as to your service in
3 the Sarajevo theatre. Do you remember the date that your unit left the
4 Sarajevo theatre?
5 A. Between the 15th and 20th of October, but one company had already
6 left before that around the 10th of October.
7 Q. After that period, the 15th to the 20th of October, did your unit
8 return for action in the Sarajevo theatre at any time after?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When was your unit transferred from Ivanici to Petrovici?
11 A. Sometime in July.
12 Q. And that is in 1992?
13 A. In July -- not June. July.
14 Q. Yes, and that is in 1992, is it?
15 A. Yes, yes, in 1992.
16 Q. In respect to Aleksic, you said that perhaps he gave some targets
17 that were then determined and decided on by the chief of artillery. About
18 when was this?
19 A. Probably when he was attacked. He had his own 82-millimetre
20 mortar and if he was attacked and he needed fire to be opened from
21 artillery, he may have requested it. I don't know.
22 Q. Well, was that before or after you moved from Ivanici to
24 A. In both periods he was there and he stayed there and he was there
25 when we arrived.
1 Q. Were those targets that he might have given in the vicinity of the
2 Jewish cemetery?
3 A. I don't know that. He was there. No, I am afraid I just don't
5 Q. To your knowledge, did your unit or battery ever fire mortars
6 which hit civilians?
7 A. No, not intentionally, that's for certain. Only military targets
8 were fired at. I do not exclude the possibility of an error.
9 Q. Did your battery have an observer who could tell you where your
10 shots landed?
11 A. Not always. In emergencies there wasn't time to go to the
12 observation post, but fire would be opened when they attacked. And those
13 targets were usually determined in advance on the basis of the knowledge
14 of our people in positions, the azimuth would be taken, the rough distance
15 and then corrections were -- only corrections were made later on.
16 Q. You said it was normal for you to respond to fire from the city;
17 is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know that civilians lived in the city?
20 A. We knew the city was there. How many of them had left, how many
21 stayed behind --
22 Q. Can you say how accurate was your mortar crew when the fired into
23 the city?
24 A. We had extensive preparations in March 1992. The mortar battery
25 was left without a crew because before the war, 70 per cent of the
1 manpower consisted of members of the Muslim faith.
2 Q. Can you say how accurate --
3 A. And let me finish, please. And we had test firing in Kalinovik on
4 the 26th of March and at that test, after 15 days of training in those
5 conditions, precision proved to be extremely good. However upon arriving
6 in Sarajevo and particularly at a later stage, we ran out of light instant
7 highly explosive mines of 13 kilograms so that mortar shells started
8 arriving which were intended for older mortars of 48. These were repaired
9 shells from Pretis, from Vogosca, unpainted shells coming directly off the
10 factory belts and using different fuses so that one could not always
11 guarantee this. And there were especially shells with different gunpowder
12 charges of older production which had been in warehouses for a long time
13 and all this affected precision.
14 As regards the crew, I think that the crews, in view of the short
15 period of time, were very well trained but other factors of a more
16 technical character certainly affected the precision.
17 Q. How about yourself, you speak of the crew. May I ask you this:
18 Did you ever boast to anyone or tell anyone that you could put a mortar
19 round down a chimney? You could fire a mortar round at a chimney and put
20 it down that chimney, did you ever tell anyone that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Very well.
23 A. But let me explain if I may. I appeal to Your Honours to allow
24 this. In the Serbian people, particularly in these different times,
25 legends develop. 90 per cent of them are untrue, and I never said that.
1 Q. Were you the subject of a legend?
2 A. No. It was more like propaganda and intimidation of the opposing
4 Q. Very well. We will speak about that later.
5 Could you fire a mortar at a chimney and hit it?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President,.
7 THE WITNESS: No. The answer is no.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I object for the precision more so as we know,
9 that in Sarajevo there are different types of chimneys and this word used
10 could signify many things and I think we need to be very precise about
12 JUDGE ORIE: The question has been answered, the objection is
14 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP:
16 Q. If you are firing at a target within the city, you yourself and
17 your crew with a good reliable 120 millimetre round --
18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Just a minute, Mr. Stamp. The problem is the
19 answer does not appear in the transcript.
20 MR. STAMP: I could just repeat the question. I remember the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think everyone heard as his answer, I take it,
23 that the answer was "no." There seems to be no doubt about that. Let's
25 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
1 Q. If you are in possession of a reliable 120 millimetre round, could
2 you fire at a target with that round and hit the target?
3 A. In the case of a 120 millimetre mortar, any hit within a circle of
4 50 metres is considered a hit. It can be a chimney, something a metre by
5 a metre, but what is a target can be hit.
6 Q. Very well.
7 A. But in view of all the different circumstances...
8 Q. Could I take it that your answer means that you could hit a target
9 within an area of 50 metres?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, you were firing rounds into the city where you know civilians
12 resided, knowing and believing that these rounds were unreliable; is that
13 your evidence?
14 A. In principle, yes. But we thought that they were reliable.
15 Probably if I hadn't behaved in that way, I wouldn't be here to testify
17 Q. You said you saw mortars moving in the vicinity of a rail track
18 and in the area of Kosevo. Let us begin with the vicinity of the rail
19 track. You said that was in Velecici?
20 A. Velecici, behind the station, the track toward Velecici.
21 Q. When you saw that mortar moving on these tracks, where were you?
22 A. Slightly to the east at Vraca, close to the memorial park in a
23 prominent position.
24 Q. By "prominent" I take it you were on high ground where you could
25 see clearly the area that you were looking at?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. What distance did you see this mortar being moved? In other
3 words, from where you first saw it being moved to where you saw it stop,
4 what was the distance?
5 A. Well, it's a very short distance, perhaps 50 metres. He would go
6 from outside behind of the station building and then he would move back in
7 the same way as it came out, in the tunnel.
8 Q. What sort of energy was used to move this vehicle? And when I say
9 "energy" was it an engine, was it a jet, was it human, was it an animal,
10 what was the mode of force used to move this vehicle?
11 A. It was mounted on a railway truck. How it moved, we couldn't see.
12 You couldn't see the engine. Whether there was an engine and separate
13 machine which it could move one of vehicles. In any case, it moved at
14 this very short distance. It would come out and fire and on that occasion
15 I only saw one round.
16 Q. When you saw the -- well let me ask you, did you say you saw 120
17 millimetre mortars being moved in the Kosevo area?
18 A. In front of the tunnel, the Kosevo tunnel. I don't mean the
19 Kosevo itself, but the Kosevo tunnel on the rail -- on the freight,
20 freight truck, Fap-13.
21 Q. Where did you see it being moved from?
22 A. From the tunnel, from the tunnel. So it would come out of the
23 tunnel, it would then fire for a short while and then it would go back.
24 Q. Where would it fire from?
25 A. From a very short distance. So it is enough to come out of the
1 tunnel, 20, 30 metres and then it would go back. All vehicles again they
2 were mounted on -- it wasn't a transport case, but these were probably
3 some freight vehicles for transporting timber or something and that was
4 then removed, so it was a flatbed.
5 Q. Your understanding, I take it, is that you were firing at these
6 vehicles that you speak of? Is it your understanding that you would be
7 given commands to return the fire to these vehicles that you saw moving?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise. I
9 apologise. But I just wondering whether the tone of the voice could be
10 lower, pleased. This is very surprising to me.
11 MR. STAMP: I apologise. It was not meant to intimidate. Just to
12 speed up the proceedings.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp raised his voice but as he explained, it
14 happened accidentally. Could you answer the question that he has put to
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I watched it we couldn't
17 respond because I was there. We took the coordinates we saw where it was
18 and then our scouts would wait the following day, the following days and
19 it would be repeated in a certain period of time. And then we waited and
20 we took the coordinates when it appeared and we were ready to fire, and
21 then we would respond during the fire being fired. But when we were
22 there, I was not on the battery position, but I did say that the
23 communication means with the battery and there on the positions, for
24 instance, like RUPs, we used them very rarely because in terms of city
25 combat, these were not safe. They were not encoded. So very often they
1 would be able to intercept our communication so we used them very rarely.
2 Muslims had all the decoding devices and monitoring devices,
3 listening devices.
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. Are you, by that explanation, saying that this RUP communications
6 device would not be used to tell you that a mortar was coming out on the
7 rail track because it might have been decoded?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That is what you are saying. Very well.
10 So I take it -- or let me ask you this: Was it not possible to
11 fire on those mortars that were moving distances of 30 to 50 metres before
12 they had fired at you instead of responding to fire? Wasn't it possible,
13 bearing in mind that you say that this had become a routine?
14 A. I said that later on, on these targets, at certain periods of
15 time, we then noted when they appeared and we used preventive fire and I
16 am not saying that we didn't do that later on.
17 Q. So you are saying now that you used preventive fire once they were
18 observed moving?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In other words, up until the time you left Sarajevo, your units or
21 the positions from which you fired were able to suppress the fire of these
22 mortars and were not responding to the fire of these mortars?
23 A. No. I said they were not within our range as soon as we moved to
24 Petrovici, and it is not what I said.
25 Q. Very well. The mortars from Ivanici could fire at those targets,
1 according to you, which moved in the vicinity of the railroad, could they
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. And those that were moving in the vicinity of the tunnel at
5 Kosevo, isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, having regard to all your evidence could I take it to be
8 correct that by the time you left Sarajevo the mortars from Ivanici would
9 have been in a position to fire on to those targets as soon as those
10 targets started to emerge from where they were coming?
11 A. In Ivanici we were replaced by the 2nd battery consisting of
12 people from Sarajevo --
13 Q. Excuse me. There is a time factor here. We are trying to
14 economise on time. All I want to know is whether or not it was possible
15 for the batteries at Ivanici and those batteries within range of Kosevo
16 area near the tunnel, and the railroad track where you saw these moving
17 vehicles, to fire -- to suppress these moving targets as they came out to
18 fire? Was it possible?
19 You nodded.
20 A. It was possible.
21 Q. You said that, to your knowledge, there was firing from the
22 compound of the Kosevo Hospital complex.
23 A. Yes. I saw that personally.
24 Q. Very well. You said you received orders not to return the fire,
25 correct, yes or no?
1 A. Yes. That was during a truce.
2 Q. You will have to clarify that. According to you, how many times
3 during your stint in Sarajevo was there fire from the Kosevo Hospital
5 A. As far as I know, at least ten times, perhaps even 15.
6 Q. Very well --
7 A. When I said -- I am sorry. But I said it is a very large complex
8 from the Krajl Tomislav Street until Bijelava.
9 Q. Excuse me again. You have told us 10 to 15 times. That is the
10 answer to the question. Thank you. And I am just trying to press on
12 Were there these occasions being 10 to 15 at times of a truce?
13 A. To my knowledge, yes. I was on one occasion present and I saw it
14 with my own eyes.
15 Q. Your evidence is, I take it, that you don't know of any occasion
16 of at least 10 to 15 that you know of, when fire emanated from the Kosevo
17 Hospital complex, when it was not in times of a truce?
18 A. I don't know that. I don't know whether the time when it wasn't
19 truce, whether this happened. I don't know that.
20 Q. When you received these orders not to return fire, did you receive
21 them only during these truce times?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you receive orders to return fire into the complex when there
24 was no truce?
25 A. We didn't receive such an order. We didn't receive an order to
1 return fire. And I didn't say -- I don't know whether there was fire when
2 it wasn't truce.
3 Q. So just to clarify your evidence. You said, according to what I
4 have here, "we didn't receive an order to return fire." Can I understand
5 you to mean that you never at any time received an order to return fire
6 into the Kosevo Hospital complex?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Do you know of any other mortar or artillery crew to the south of
9 the city of Sarajevo that received orders to fire into the Kosevo Hospital
11 A. I have no knowledge of that.
12 Q. Do you know of any mortar or artillery crew to the south of
13 Sarajevo firing into the hospital complex at any time while you were in
14 the Sarajevo area?
15 A. No. I said that in previous questions, I don't know --
16 Q. Please. Again, do you know of any mortar or artillery unit
17 positioned south of the city of Sarajevo that fired into the city? Sorry,
18 that fired into Kosevo Hospital complex?
19 A. No. I have no knowledge of that.
20 Q. Did you eventually become a mortar battery commander?
21 A. No, just a commanding officer of the platoon, of the 2nd platoon.
22 Q. When was this? Year, month, day, if you can.
23 A. Already in Sarajevo I was the commanding officer of the platoon.
24 That was in May 1992.
25 Q. While you were in Sarajevo, do you know of any member of the Army
1 of Republika Srpska on that front that was disciplined for breach of any
3 A. I have no knowledge of that.
4 MR. STAMP: If I may --
5 Q. You said that there was a court-martial in Zagrebacka Street.
6 A. Not court-martial. I meant military tribunal.
7 Q. A military tribunal. Did you hear of any soldier of the arm that
8 you served in being disciplined at that place?
9 A. I have no knowledge of that.
10 Q. You said that if you had a reliable 120 millimetre round you could
11 hit a target within 50 metres. If you had pre-existing coordinates for
12 that target, would you be able to hit it first shot?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I would like
16 things to be precise by saying exactly where the witness said this. Also
17 I just want to say that considering we are very interested in the tapes
18 and the transcript, I will need a couple of minutes at the end of the
19 session. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, you may proceed.
21 MR. STAMP: I am afraid, Mr. President, that I am prepared to
22 proceed now, but it seems if I will not be able to complete.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It looks as if we could not.
24 MR. STAMP: But perhaps I could proceed on to the --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just answer the
1 previous question?
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, the previous question has was an objection
3 against that question. Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
4 MR. STAMP: Page 89 line 1 on the English transcript if I
5 could -- page 81, line 11.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's where we find the 50 metres. Perhaps the
7 Chamber should consider how to proceed because I take it that you, Mr.
8 Piletta-Zanin, will not be able to re-examine the witness, if there is any
9 need to do so. I take it that there is need.
10 Mr. Stamp, that would mean that we cannot conclude today, I take
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. STAMP: May I before you proceed, Mr. President, just ask for
14 the answer to the last question before we move on to anything else.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The last question was -- let me just -- yes.
16 Perhaps -- the last question, Mr. Stamp --
17 MR. STAMP: It is on page --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please repeat that question and ask the witness
19 to answer it.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. If you had pre-existing coordinates for a target and you had fired
22 into the area or the vicinity of that target before, would you thereafter
23 be able to hit that target within 50 metres first shot?
24 A. Only in ideal conditions. And there you have to take into
25 consideration other factors. Humidity, outside temperature, temperature
1 of the air, temperature of the weapons which is rarely taken into
2 consideration. Now, all these and I don't know if they exist. But this
3 hit would be for a short [as interpreted] hit. I am saying that within 50
4 metre range, 50 [Realtime transcript read in error "15"] metre radius, you
5 could hit. With some further shots you would be able to hit the target,
6 with corrections. The temperature, humidity and all the other factors,
7 even air pressure and so on.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You explained that. Yes. I take it that -- did you
9 say now 50 metres away because in the transcript, as you see for the
10 second time it appears 15. But did you intend to change or did you
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the regulations of the
13 former JNA. I have to clarify. We used --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I am just asking --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 50.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what I am asking.
17 MR. STAMP: I think since we are referring to the transcript, for
18 that paragraph, I think he said "for a first hit" and not "for a short
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's also what I -- and that's logical as
21 well in respect of the what follows in his answer.
22 We will not be able to conclude your testimony today,
23 unfortunately because there are still more questions to be put to you by,
24 I take it by the Prosecution. How much time would you still need,
25 approximately, Mr. Stamp?
1 MR. STAMP: I propose to try to complete within 30 minutes,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you are asking for another 30 minutes. Are
4 you still available for next Monday because it is the weekend that comes
5 now? Would you be available next Monday, Witness?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You are nodding and I take it that you are
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. But I understood that the
10 examination will continue now, today.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We tried to finish, but we have to leave this
12 courtroom unless we can do a similar thing as we did yesterday, but I
13 don't know whether that is possible. Is there already any schedule you to
14 leave The Hague, has there been any plans?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There would be no plans. Could perhaps -- I think
17 the Chamber first wants to consider whether it is of any use to try to
18 continue this afternoon. May I first ask whether the parties could
19 continue this afternoon? If necessary, I am not saying we are going to
20 try, but I am just asking.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very
22 much. It has functioned very well yesterday thanks to the Chamber. But
23 today I am expected in Geneva for a meeting and I have a plane at 4.00 and
24 I don't really see how I can do it otherwise, except to be at this meeting
25 tonight. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you be available?
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a meeting from
3 15.30 in the Detention Unit. It is an interview. And for a week I
4 haven't had a conversation with the General, and bearing in mind his
5 health, I don't know how he feels today.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will first --
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Efforts as we made yesterday should be an exception
9 rather than a rule, therefore the Chamber decides that we will continue
10 next Monday with your testimony. Witness is available, parties might have
11 problems this afternoon. So we will adjourn until next Monday but then in
12 the afternoon. If there would be anything the parties would like to
13 address the Chamber at this very moment, we can see whether we can do that
14 in five minutes, but let's first ask the usher to escort the witness out
15 of the courtroom.
16 MR. STAMP: Perhaps --
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I -- before doing so. Witness, may I -- no,
18 please. You are not allowed to speak with anyone, no one, about your
19 testimony in this court. We will continue next Tuesday, so that's valid
20 for -- next Monday -- yes, I said Tuesday, but it is Monday. So don't
21 speak with anyone not with the Prosecution, not with the Defence, not with
22 anyone about your testimony of today.
23 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
25 [The witness stands downs]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, you were at your feet and
2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is on his feet as well.
3 MR. STAMP: Yes. I had indicated earlier that I would be asking
4 in order to prepare better for next week, if we could have directions in
5 respect to the Rule -- I can't quote it now, but the facts that must be
6 summarised upon instead of these generic facts. They are too general for
7 any type of preparation. Where there is a wrong, there is a remedy, the
8 remedy could not be, I think, to stop the witness from testifying. The
9 only thing that I would ask is that the Defence be told that they need to
10 be more precise and to be given guidance in that area.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will consider this matter and if this would
12 result in whatever guidance then I take it that your addresses are known.
13 If this guidance needs to be given today, we have to consider that, the
14 Judges will have to discuss the matter. I take it that a message could
15 reach you if necessary. Is there any other issue?
16 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very briefly.
18 I want to say again what I have already said privately to the
19 representatives of the Defence which didn't go across very well. But all
20 the indications that we had in the letter dated 29th of October for
21 general purposes, would mutatis mutandis, would be valid for all the
22 military people. This is a scheme that we wanted to impose for everyone
23 line by line, situation by situation, weapon by weapon. So we would have
24 to take that, copy it and put the names. So I believe here this is clear.
25 However, the second thing, and this is all I am going to say,
1 Mr. President, bearing in mind the interpretations, I have to say, the
2 translation I believe, I can never be certain, and perhaps my reaction
3 earlier was very quick, because I thought I heard something in Serbian, I
4 wasn't sure, but I believe that for another matter, this witness said that
5 he saw two people maneuvering this mortar, 82 millimetre, that is on page
6 32 of the transcript.
7 Now, that is for the Serbian into English. The second thing in
8 page 88 with respect to the French transcript, this is the second platoon
9 we are talking about, and again for the French transcript, to conclude, we
10 are not talking about firing at a distance, that would be very dangerous.
11 I believe we are talking about an area of 50 metres, 50 metre radius. So
12 again we have to be precise here. Others are just details. Yesterday I
13 didn't have time to do, to say anything, and I just wanted to do the same
14 thing. I apologise, the expression "high risk" that the witness used
15 cannot be translated into French as "higher responsibility." Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your observations,
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I would like to thank everyone in and around the
18 courtroom for the patience because I must apologise that we took 10
19 minutes extra of your time. Thank you very much. I wish a good weekend
20 to everyone and we will adjourn until next Monday, 2.15 in the afternoon.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
22 1.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
23 the 4th day of November, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.