Page 15331
1 Friday, 8 November 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, to everyone in the courtroom.
6 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case Number IT-98-29-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I was informed that you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did some work on the
11 transcript of yesterday and the day before, and that you had no time yet
12 to just write down what exactly it was. If you would take that effort so
13 that on the basis of the small note you'll then provide to the Chamber,
14 that we'll be in a position during the break to check and to find the
15 spots so that we can pay proper attention to what bothers you in that
16 respect.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I asked
18 the Registry if I could address the Trial Chamber for five minutes, or
19 even less, for three minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If it's about this -- if it's about the transcript
21 issues, the Chamber would like to receive places, texts, et cetera, where
22 there is mistranslation, so that we can check it and not spend time on it
23 not being in a position to check it. If it's something different, please
24 proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's similar
Page 15332
1 but it's also different. I would appreciate it if you could have faith in
2 us. But during the break, I will try to give you the references, the
3 references, the ones that we gave you yesterday. And I'd like to say --
4 I'd like to say this now, with your permission, because we'll waste time
5 if you permit me to do so, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think we must be in a position to check and to
7 verify, and we can't do that on the spot. So we'll wait for the first
8 break, and then we'll receive your short note.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. But
10 this is what I want to say, but I wasted a lot of time, a lot of time I
11 wasn't able to use for the Defence of my client. But there were errors in
12 the transcript, and this IS time I have wasted. But the Defence's rights
13 have been violated because we cannot constantly be asked to verify things
14 in the transcript. This is time that we have wasted, and this is time
15 that we can't use for the defence of our client.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not time that is wasted. If there is error
17 in the transcript, that is because making a transcript is a difficult task
18 which cannot be made without errors, and everyone in this courtroom,
19 Defence, Prosecution, Chamber, will do their utmost best, and it will take
20 some time now and then to make sure that these inevitable errors will not
21 cause any prejudice to any party. That is how the Chamber would define
22 the situation.
23 Yes, this is not a moment to open a discussion on it. I have
24 expressed the view of the Chamber after you have expressed your view on
25 the issue. Then the second thing I'd like to say: The parties are
Page 15333
1 invited -- I think I gave a few examples already when Ms. Mahindaratne
2 made objections a couple of times, that parties should limit themselves in
3 objecting to questions to substantial issues, and not on minor issues that
4 finally do not affect the substance of the testimony so that the flow of
5 evidence can continue and will not be unnecessarily interrupted.
6 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP5.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the
11 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
14 WITNESS: WITNESS DP5 [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, sir. Yesterday, my last question to you concerned
18 where the tank was kept, the tank of your armoured company. And you
19 explained it was kept in the compound of the Nedzarici barracks, in the
20 last facility, about 30 to 40 metres from the faculty of theology. Are
21 the Nedzarici barracks a short distance southwest of the school for the
22 blind on Stupska Brdo?
23 A. It's, if you look at it from Alipasino Polje, I think from the
24 southwest perhaps, it's about 300 to 350 metres from the school for the
25 blind, from the school for blind children.
Page 15334
1 Q. Was the tank usually kept inside a building?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From where would the tank fire its rounds? Where was it when it
4 fired rounds? Did it change its position, or was it normally in the same
5 place?
6 A. It had to change its position.
7 Q. Did it always stay within the barracks, or did it sometimes leave
8 the barracks to fire rounds?
9 A. It had to leave the barracks.
10 Q. Would it go all over Nedzarici to fire rounds, or would it stay in
11 particular parts of Nedzarici?
12 A. It couldn't go all over Nedzarici because the streets are very
13 small. There are private houses there. It could only use that main road.
14 We never used a tank to fire at residential buildings up there. It was
15 only used down here from the barracks where there were five or six hangars
16 in which there was nothing before the war. It was the territory of the
17 Muslim -- of the Muslim army, and it was only built after -- there was no
18 room for maneuvering with a tank.
19 Q. When you say "the main road," do you mean Aleja Bosne Srebrene
20 Street?
21 A. I'm thinking of the Aleja Branka Bujica. I don't know what that
22 street is called now.
23 Q. All right. Were there mortars kept at the barracks as well as the
24 tank?
25 A. No.
Page 15335
1 Q. How did you receive information about the targets for the tank?
2 Were the targets given by the names of buildings or map references or
3 what?
4 A. I said we didn't fire the buildings. The tank was only used in
5 area near the barracks because the demarcation line was by the barrack's
6 fence. We were by the barracks, and the Muslims army was behind where
7 there were large concrete constructions. And when the army from our
8 positions observed where the enemy was firing from, then we would call for
9 someone to neutralise that fire.
10 Q. Who would make that call for neutralising fire? Were they the
11 local commanders in Nedzarici?
12 A. No, since the area was not very large, it was a small lodge, and
13 the phones were used. Old military phones were used, and they would call
14 people from the line directly, the people who were in danger because of
15 the enemy fire.
16 Q. You said earlier "we didn't fire buildings." Did you, apart from
17 the Oslobodjenje building, fire a tank at any stage at buildings, that is,
18 positions, military positions, of the enemy in buildings?
19 A. No, we couldn't have done so because the tank would have had to go
20 right in front of our lines, and it would have been a very easy target.
21 Q. Were there not lines of sight from areas in the middle of
22 Nedzarici to high-rise buildings surrounding Nedzarici?
23 A. Can I answer that question? Can I answer?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were, where the primary
Page 15336
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Page 15337
1 school was, but all the routes leading to the primary school -- well
2 only -- well vehicles could barely get to it. Perhaps a van could reach
3 it, but a tank would have reached it with difficulty.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, an objection,
6 but in order to -- no objection, Mr. President. But could the witness
7 speak a little more slowly so that I can verify whether the English
8 transcript corresponds to what he is saying in his mother tongue, which is
9 the Serbian language. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you speak not too quickly. I would say,
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that if the transcribers can follow, that would be the
12 right speed. And I'm, for reasons of time, I think it's not appropriate
13 to ask the witness to speak slower.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. When you were called upon to assist other troops in Nedzarici with
17 the tank, I take it that the tank would fire at physical objects, be they
18 buildings or something else. Can you tell us what type of targets you hit
19 with the tank, apart from the Oslobodjenje building?
20 A. I said that we fired from the tank -- only from the Aleja Branka
21 Bujica because that's the road it was able to use. This happened on two
22 occasions. Oslobodjenje was fired at on two occasions with two shells on
23 each occasion.
24 Q. Please stop. What I'm asking you is this: Do you remember
25 yesterday you told us that the tank was used to fire some shells, to shoot
Page 15338
1 some shells, at the Oslobodjenje building, and that was in June of 1992?
2 A. The second half of June, yes. With two shells. That's what I
3 said.
4 Q. All right. Now, you did that in order to eliminate some sniper
5 positions in that building. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Did you use the tank to eliminate sniper positions in
8 other buildings at any stage?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you use the tank to eliminate troop positions in other
11 buildings at any stage?
12 A. That's what I was explaining. Not in the buildings; only along
13 the demarcation line, the one that ran by the barracks because that's the
14 only place where there was room for manoeuvre and you could see enemy
15 trenches.
16 Q. So did you fire at the trenches or did you fire at barricades or
17 trees or what?
18 A. We fired at the trenches.
19 Q. So a tank was used to fire at trenches. Is that what you say?
20 A. Yes, only at one of the front lines.
21 Q. All right. What else did you fire at, apart from the Oslobodjenje
22 building and the trench or trenches at one of the front lines? What else?
23 A. Nowhere else, nothing else from the tank.
24 Q. Did you ever receive orders to fire at targets in the city?
25 A. No, that would have been impossible.
Page 15339
1 Q. Did you ever receive orders to fire at any target outside
2 Nedzarici?
3 A. No, Nedzarici was surrounded by high buildings. It was entirely
4 surrounded, and it was impossible for us to see anything.
5 Q. All right. Now, yesterday -- I'll withdraw that. After the
6 Oslobodjenje building collapsed, did it continue to be used by the ABiH
7 for sniping; that is, amongst the ruins of the building?
8 A. No, it was no longer possible for them to climb up to the middle
9 part where the lift was, et cetera.
10 Q. What about from the ruins in the lower levels? Were those areas
11 used by snipers?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Was the building used after it collapsed -- I'll withdraw that.
14 At the time that the building was shelled, was it used to produce the
15 daily newspaper in Sarajevo?
16 A. I wasn't able to know that. We couldn't see civilians moving
17 around that building, not at all.
18 Q. You simply didn't know. Is that the position?
19 A. Yes, we didn't know.
20 Q. Did you hear from any sources that the newspaper continued to be
21 produced throughout the war?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You never heard that?
24 A. No. We were quite simply in hell. We didn't have electricity,
25 and we didn't have any water. We were unable to follow --
Page 15340
1 Q. Have you heard it since, that it was produced on a daily basis, on
2 a regular basis, throughout the war?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection
4 because the witness is being asked what he found out after -- well, I
5 don't know after how much time, but after the events concerned, so this
6 objection concerns the relevance.
7 MR. IERACE: It goes to credibility, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The
10 Prosecution's explanation is very brief. Why --
11 JUDGE ORIE: We're not going to discuss in the presence of the
12 witness the subject of the last -- the basis Mr. Ierace has laid for his
13 response to your objection.
14 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of
16 the courtroom for one second.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just while that's being done, to save
19 time, could Madam Registrar please get ready to show to the witness
20 Exhibit D1674. And secondly, could we have access to the videotape so
21 that we could provide it to the audiovisual room and have it put at the
22 appropriate position.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is the videotape in the technical room?
24 MR. IERACE: It is.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you wanted to expand on --
Page 15341
1 Mr. Ierace has told us that he wants to ask this question in order to test
2 the credibility of the witness. You said it was a short explanation.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I don't
4 know if that is the only explanation that Mr. Ierace has, but if it's his
5 only explanation, I don't see what could be inferred from the fact that
6 perhaps ten years after the events, a witness discovered something.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as I understand it in the area, it's a
9 well-known fact that throughout the war, the newspaper didn't miss an
10 issue. And after the building collapsed, the staff continued to produce
11 the newspaper from the ground level beneath the ruins. And that meant, of
12 course, that civilians were travelling to that part of the city which is
13 immediately adjacent to the area where this witness says he was operating
14 from. The particular relevance of the question is if he says that he's
15 never heard that, and later in the fullness of the evidence of the trial
16 it emerges that that's incredible, that that's unlikely then that will
17 assist the Trial Chamber in forming a view of the credibility of the
18 witness on issues such as those. Thank you..
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As Mr. Ierace has developed
22 this argument, I'd like to respond to it. When Mr. Ierace says that
23 everyone in the area was aware of this, everyone in the area was aware of
24 this on the Muslim side perhaps. This witness just said that they knew
25 nothing about it, that it was hell, they had no electricity, they had no
Page 15342
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Page 15343
1 water either. It's obvious they didn't know what was happening in the
2 ruins of the building. If the witness said that at the time of the events
3 he didn't know, then he didn't know at the time of the events. And to
4 find out -- to know whether he had found this out later on has nothing to
5 do with the credibility of the witness. It's possible to know things five
6 or six years later but not to have known them at the time of the events.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness.
9 The objection is denied, although it's not a subject that should be
10 explored in full detail.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President.
13 Q. Have you heard it since that the newspaper was issued regularly
14 throughout the war?
15 A. After the signing of the Dayton agreement, I went to Novi Sad. I
16 worked in a friend's restaurant. After I returned, I found out about
17 this, that they worked in the Oslobodjenje building. But in what
18 capacity, how, and who, I don't know.
19 Q. All right. Thank you.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown D1764, and
21 perhaps Mr. Usher could move the ELMO slightly so that I could see the
22 witness.
23 Q. Sir, please look at the map alongside you. And with the pointer
24 alongside your glass of water, could you please point to the position on
25 the map, if you see it, of the barracks at Nedzarici that you've told us
Page 15344
1 about where the tank was kept.
2 A. The barracks is here, so this part here.
3 Q. All right.
4 MR. IERACE: For the record, the witness points to an area to the
5 southeast of the dark black line in the vicinity -- in an area that is
6 between the dark black line and the road marked on the map as Aleja Bosne
7 Srebrene Street, commencing just above the circle placed on the map. It
8 has a number in it which I can't read on the video.
9 Q. Would you please place the pointer back on the map.
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. All right. And would you also point to the faculty of theology.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 MR. IERACE: All right. Witness indicates the faculty of theology
14 which appears on the map with a circle around it. The are of the barracks
15 is on the other side of Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street, between that street
16 and the thick black line slightly to the north. Thank you.
17 Q. Now, the main road that you told us about that the tank would
18 travel on, would you please point to that.
19 A. [Indicates]
20 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the road indicated on the map as
21 Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street.
22 Thank you, that might be returned.
23 Q. Now, did you ever go into the buildings at the faculty of
24 theology?
25 A. Yes.
Page 15345
1 Q. Do you agree that there are four buildings that form that complex?
2 A. No, it's one building. It has got four corners, and there's a
3 park in the middle. It's a square, in fact. Only part of it, at the
4 lower part towards Igman, there's only that part there. But it's like a
5 square.
6 Q. All right. Given that you refer to it as one building, did that
7 building have a ground level, and then three levels above the ground
8 level?
9 A. Part of the building, yes.
10 Q. Did you ever go, during the war, to the top of that building, that
11 is, to the roof?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever go to the top level of the building, that is,
14 immediately under the roof?
15 A. Perhaps on a couple of occasions.
16 Q. All right. And did you ever see any snipers in that building,
17 that is, soldiers with rifles shooting at targets outside Nedzarici,
18 targets on the other side of the confrontation lines?
19 A. No. Considering that I knew the situation in Nedzarici very well,
20 we did not have any sniper weapons.
21 Q. What do you mean by a "sniper weapon"?
22 A. Anything which has an optical sight on it. A hunting rifle can
23 also be a sniping weapon -- a sniper weapon, in my opinion.
24 Q. All right. Were there ever snipers, to your knowledge, that came
25 into Nedzarici to operate on that territory?
Page 15346
1 A. Throughout the war, nobody came to Nedzarici, not to assist us.
2 Only people who came from Zenica. They were fleeing Zenica via Kiseljak,
3 and they were positioned there as ordinary soldiers. They were going to
4 the trench. But for anyone to come and help us, assist us, to be there
5 for ten days, a fortnight, a month, to be in the trench, to be with us, to
6 assist us, that didn't happen.
7 Q. When did those people come from Zenica? What month, what year?
8 A. I don't know exactly the dates. It was in 1992 because the Muslim
9 soldiers forced us -- forced them out of Zenica, and then they would pay a
10 thousand Deutschmarks to be let through. And then the Croats made them
11 also pay money, and then they would come to our area.
12 Q. So the question was as to the date, not the circumstances. And if
13 you don't know the month, do you know the year that happened?
14 A. It was in 1992. It was the beginning of the war, because they
15 were fleeing Zenica with their families, with their wives and children.
16 Q. Now, if you don't know the answer to this, please say so. Was
17 Nedzarici, I suggest to you, was a particularly sensitive part of the
18 confrontation line around Sarajevo from the perspective of the Bosnian
19 Serb forces?
20 A. I don't understand the question, what do you mean "sensitive"?
21 Q. What I mean by that is it was a particularly vulnerable part of
22 the line for Bosnian Serb forces.
23 A. Because we were surrounded. Probably, yes.
24 Q. And you tell us that at no stage during the war did you receive
25 the assistance of outside forces. Is that correct?
Page 15347
1 A. Yes, I state this.
2 Q. Now, you've told us what you regard as a sniper rifle, a rifle
3 that has a scope. Were there soldiers of the Bosnian Serb army in
4 Nedzarici who, with rifles, positioned themselves so that they could see
5 areas on the other side of the confrontation lines? Firstly, was that the
6 case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You're telling us that there were not Bosnian Serb soldiers who
9 positioned themselves with rifles so that they could see areas on the
10 other side of the confrontation lines. Is that correct? That didn't
11 happen?
12 A. The lines that were established in 1992, people went to those
13 lines, and they stood guard. Where they were, there was no movement
14 during the war. We only lost one part of the territory in Nedzarici
15 during the war because we couldn't stand sniper fire.
16 Q. All right. Perhaps you misunderstand the question. I'll come
17 back to that.
18 You told us yesterday that the tank that fired on the school for
19 the blind where your brother was, was firing from Brijesce Brdo. Is that
20 the case?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us how you know that, where it was firing from? Did
23 someone see it firing?
24 A. I told you that my brother had told me this.
25 Q. Have you any idea how your brother knew that?
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Page 15349
1 A. When he was on that position, on one occasion, they saw when they
2 were not being targeted, where there was a large fire, flash of fire,
3 which came out of a barrel of a tank. That came out, and they also saw
4 the traces of the caterpillar wheels in the soil.
5 Q. Did he tell you where he was exactly at the school for the blind
6 when he saw that?
7 A. Ground floor, ground floor, which is in the middle of the
8 building.
9 Q. What weaponry did you see at the school for the blind when you
10 went there during the war? Apart from pistols, what else did you see?
11 A. Automatic rifles, only with the fold-up butts, and one hand-held
12 rocket launcher.
13 Q. Did you see any mortars?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You told us yesterday that you did not go upstairs into any of the
16 buildings at the school for the blind during the war. You said the reason
17 you didn't do that was that you couldn't do that because there was a
18 broken-glass partition where the steps were. So if you went up the steps,
19 you could be seen from Vojnicko Polje. Is that correct?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not
21 remember -- I do not recall that in the testimony of the witness we spoke
22 of glass partition, but I can check.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's my recollection that the witness said so.
24 So please check before, and try to find it.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. No, he did say. I
Page 15350
1 apologise.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you remember also yesterday when we saw the video, we saw some
6 blankets being used for protection, visual blinds? And you explained that
7 blankets and boards were used for sniper cover. Do you remember seeing
8 that in the video yesterday, not in relation to the school for the blind
9 but some other area?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Incidentally, was that area in Nedzarici somewhere, yes or no?
12 A. Yes, it was in Nedzarici, in the street where my house is. And
13 it's not on the very first front line. It's about 120 metres from the
14 front line.
15 Q. Now, why could that not have been done at the school for the blind
16 to give protection to soldiers going up the stairs to the top floors of
17 the buildings? Why could they have not erected a blanket or some wood so
18 that they could not be seen from Vojnicko Polje?
19 A. I said that they had made premises for accommodation on the ground
20 floor of the building. There were several bunkers outside of the house,
21 so there was no need for them to go upstairs. I don't know what the
22 effect would have been because even they would be hit -- they were hit on
23 the ground floor with sniper bullets.
24 Q. Well, let me make sure I understand what you're saying. So it's
25 not a question of they were incapable of going upstairs, but rather they
Page 15351
1 didn't need to go upstairs for defence purposes. Is that the case?
2 A. Yes, because the army could only come across ground. We were
3 defending ourselves from attacks.
4 Q. Would it not have been better to defend yourselves from attacks if
5 you had a safe position above ground level, so close to the front line and
6 at such a prominent, extended point of the front line?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a
8 question which is completely speculative, and we're going to ask the
9 witness whether he's got competencies of a strategist if he can answer
10 such questions.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, putting to one side the
12 inappropriateness of saying that in presence of the witness and within the
13 hearing of the witness, this is of such basic, fundamental, and I might
14 say an obvious nature, that one does not need any particular
15 qualifications as a strategist to respond to it.
16 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
17 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
18 MR. IERACE:
19 Q. I'll repeat the question to you. Would it not have been -- before
20 I repeat the question --
21 MR. IERACE: Madam Registrar, could you please prepare to be shown
22 to the witness shortly Exhibit P3279 OA, photograph ending with the number
23 3. Thank you.
24 Q. I'll repeat the question to you.
25 Would it not have been better from the point of view of defending
Page 15352
1 yourselves from attacks if you had a safe position above ground level so
2 close to the front line and at such a prominent extended point of the
3 front line?
4 A. In my opinion, no.
5 Q. You say it was unnecessary?
6 A. No. What I said, and I answered this question before, that we
7 were at risk from the ground. They could only come from the ground. The
8 soldiers could come across ground because it was on the ground that the
9 trenches were, the enemy trenches.
10 Q. If you had greater height, you could see more into the trenches,
11 could you not?
12 A. No. These were extremely deep trenches, well over the height of a
13 man. And bunkers are bunkers, and you know what they are like. They are
14 like dams. More or less they were -- they served in the army.
15 Q. If you had greater height, you could see further than you could
16 from the ground, couldn't you?
17 A. Probably, yes.
18 Q. If you had greater height, you could perhaps see over barricades,
19 couldn't you?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. You don't know because --
22 A. Personally, I don't know that. Personally, I don't know that.
23 Q. You personally don't know, I take it, because as you tell us you
24 never went up there to find out. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 15353
1 MR. IERACE: Might the witness now be shown Exhibit P3279 OA.
2 Q. While that's being prepared, how many buildings were there in the
3 school for the blind? Just one or more than one?
4 A. I think three.
5 Q. All right. Look at the photograph to your right, do you see those
6 three buildings? If, so please point to them with the pointer.
7 A. This is one building.
8 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the building within the circle of
9 the two circles, the one on the right. The circles being in the top
10 left-hand corner of the photograph.
11 Q. Please continue.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 MR. IERACE: Witness points to the building in the second circle
14 which is immediately to the left.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the second building. And
16 this is the third building.
17 MR. IERACE: Witness points to the building to the right of the
18 two circled buildings. Thank you.
19 Q. Now --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, perhaps I do not see it well on my
21 screen, but it seems to me that the first two buildings the witness
22 pointed at were both within one circle containing a number 1 in it, rather
23 than in two circles.
24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, I see. The image on
25 my screen could be either of those, and I accept that it's one inside the
Page 15354
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Page 15355
1 larger circle. In fact, I know it's the second circle, but beneath the
2 larger circle with the one.
3 So correct the transcript, the first two buildings indicated by
4 the witness were both within a circle with the number one in it.
5 Q. Sir, do you see a building with a circle around it and I think a
6 number 2 in that circle? Do you see that?
7 A. I see that there is a circle with a number 2, but I can't clearly
8 see what it is.
9 Q. All right. Now, if you look towards the top of the photograph, to
10 the right of the three buildings we see a green area, perhaps a field. Is
11 that correct? Perhaps you could point to it.
12 A. You mean this?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Yes. These were sport fields of the institute for blind children.
15 Q. Just behind the field, we can see what appears to be a line of
16 trees. Do you see that?
17 A. You mean this here, in the distance?
18 Q. Yes, yes. I'm sorry.
19 A. Not a line of trees. These are orchard fruit trees around houses,
20 ordinary apple trees. It's not a line of trees.
21 Q. That orchard, was that on the Bosnian Serb army side of the
22 confrontation line in 1993?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. On this photograph, do you see the old people's home?
25 A. Old people's home is here, about here.
Page 15356
1 Q. Can you actually see any of the buildings on the photograph of the
2 old people's home, any of the building?
3 A. The photograph is very unclear. I think the old people's home is
4 here, right here. Because next to it I see a house of a friend of mine,
5 and I can see that his house is clear. The old people's home is a lot
6 bigger, and it should be about there.
7 Q. All right. As you look at the photograph, was the old people's
8 home to the left of your friend's house?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Yesterday --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, for the transcript, the witness pointed
12 at the extreme top left corner of the photograph.
13 MR. IERACE: Immediately --
14 JUDGE ORIE: And talked about the old people's home.
15 MR. IERACE: Yes.
16 Q. Yesterday, I asked you a question about where the video we saw
17 yesterday might have been filmed from. And you said perhaps it could have
18 been filmed from the old people's home. Having regard to the high-rise
19 building we see in front of the old people's home as one looks at the
20 photograph, do you agree with me that it's most unlikely the video -- the
21 part of the video which showed the student hostels was filmed from that
22 building?
23 A. Again, I repeat, it's possible, and I'm sure that it's possible to
24 photograph it. It looks here as if it's not there, the old people's home,
25 as if it doesn't exist on this photograph. It's also a building with
Page 15357
1 three floors.
2 Q. All right. Coming back to the orchard, were there buildings
3 behind the orchard as you look at the photograph, although we cannot see
4 the buildings?
5 A. There were private houses, individuals houses, up to the height of
6 two storeys.
7 Q. And were those houses on the Bosnian Serb army side of the
8 confrontation line during the war?
9 A. There were on our side, yes.
10 Q. In relation to the video that we saw yesterday, do you agree that
11 all of it was taken from somewhere on the Bosnian Serb army side of the
12 confrontation lines in Nedzarici?
13 A. You mean the entire video recording, everything that we saw?
14 Q. Yes. What I mean is that the camera was positioned at various
15 places in Nedzarici during the filming. Is that the case?
16 A. Recordings were from different parts of Nedzarici. I can show you
17 on the map exactly where that is. It wasn't all filmed from one place --
18 Q. No, no. But clearly it was filmed from different places, but were
19 all of those different places somewhere in Nedzarici on territory
20 controlled during the war by the Bosnian Serb army?
21 A. Yes. Probably.
22 Q. All right.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have some still photographs which
24 we've produced since yesterday afternoon from the video. Perhaps they
25 could be -- one of those at this stage could be -- I'll withdraw that.
Page 15358
1 I'll leave that for a moment.
2 Might the witness be shown Exhibit P3279 NN; in particular, two
3 photographs ending in the numbers 09 -- excuse me -- and 11. Perhaps both
4 those photographs could be shown to the witness.
5 Q. Sir, would you please look at those two photographs side by side.
6 Firstly, I'd like to let you know that these are photographs taken after
7 the war ended. Drawing your attention firstly to photograph ending in
8 number 11, would you agree that in that photograph we can see the
9 high-rise buildings of Alipasino Polje? Yes or no.
10 A. In Alipasino Polje, in the distance.
11 Q. Yes. And on the right, we can see Lukavicka Cesta, that is
12 between the intersection in the immediate foreground going off to the
13 right?
14 A. Yes, this is Lukavicka Cesta.
15 Q. Please point to that street.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. Thank you. And the road going off to the left is the main road
18 you referred to earlier. That goes down towards Ante Babica Street. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Immediately in front of the intersection, we have the shopping
22 centre or the -- yes, the shopping centre. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, this is the shopping centre.
24 Q. All right. And do you agree with me that the camera which took
25 this photograph appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of the school for
Page 15359
1 the blind, having regard to the intersection that you've identified?
2 A. This building here is very well known to me. Between the school
3 for the blind and this building, there used to be a house before the war,
4 and it's not there now.
5 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
6 Q. It appears -- it's obvious from the photograph that whenever this
7 photograph was taken, the building there was a brand-new one. Is that
8 correct?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,
10 I'm sorry, but we have an important point to make. The witness just
11 showed something in the transcript on the screen, that is, and he said
12 before the war, there was a house there. And that should be entered into
13 the transcript. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness just pointed at a house with a red roof
15 which appears approximately in the middle of the photograph, to the left,
16 indicated that between that house and the school of the blind, and at that
17 moment, he pointed away from that house in the direction of the camera
18 point of view. So not seen from the camera, behind that house, but in
19 front of that house. He said that between the house visible and in front
20 of that house, in between that house and the school of the blind, there
21 had been another house before the war.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE:
24 Q. Was -- first of all, perhaps you could answer the question I asked
25 earlier. The building which appears in the photograph with the red and
Page 15360
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Page 15361
1 black roof appears to be newly constructed, indeed, not even finished, at
2 the time of the taking of the photograph. Is that correct?
3 A. Mr. President, there is something I would like to say about this
4 house, but would it be possible to go into private session?
5 JUDGE ORIE: If there is a specific issue you'd like to deal with
6 in private session, we'll go into private session.
7 [Private session]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 15362
1 [redacted]
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
4 MR. IERACE:
5 Q. All right, now looking at the second photograph, you'll notice
6 that with a telephoto lens, we have a close-up of the portion of the view
7 above the black and red roof showing the intersection of Aleja Bosne
8 Srebrene Street and Ante Babica Street. Do you agree with that?
9 A. Let me just have a look.
10 Yes.
11 Q. All right. Now, I want to point out to you a few features of this
12 particular photograph. I'd be grateful if you could take the pointer and
13 point to these features as I mention them so that I can be sure that you
14 are following them. Firstly, point to Ante Babica Street, if you could
15 run the pointer along that street.
16 A. That's this street here.
17 Q. Now, do you see above the trees slightly to the left of the bigger
18 of the trees, one can just make out a light post, apparently on Ante
19 Babica Street. If you could firstly point to the trees, to the left of
20 the photograph.
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. Thank you. Move your pointer slightly to the left of the tallest
23 tree.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 Q. Thank you. Just there, do you see there what appears to be a
Page 15363
1 light post?
2 A. That is a light post, yes.
3 Q. All right. Now do you know if that light post was there during
4 the war?
5 A. They would install these sorts of light posts in the part of
6 Sarajevo that I used to -- that I lived in. These are new light posts. It
7 wasn't there during the war for sure. Maybe some other light post was
8 there, but this one wasn't.
9 Q. All right. But before the war, were there light posts of a
10 similar height in Sarajevo, parts of Sarajevo?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. IERACE:
14 Q. All right, now, move your pointer slightly to the right of that
15 same tree. And do you see some green grass. Bring it down to the grass.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. Thank you. And do you see what appears to be a ground-level
18 entrance to the -- one of the Alipasino Polje high-rises. Do you see
19 that?
20 A. That's what it looks like, whether it's an entrance or the area
21 where the rubbish is left, I don't know. But perhaps it's even a shop
22 because there is some sort of inscription above it.
23 Q. In any event, we see a thickish white horizontal section, and
24 beneath it, slightly beneath it towards the middle, we can make out what
25 appears to be part of a wall, at least there is a whitish area on the
Page 15364
1 front of the wall. Do you see that? Perhaps you could put your pointer
2 on it.
3 A. [Indicates]
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. I think this is it.
6 Q. Yes, thank you.
7 Immediately to the left of the entrance, we see a light-coloured
8 column, vertical column, of the building with one window on each level.
9 Would you please point to that.
10 A. Could you explain that to me, please. I don't understand where.
11 Q. Put the pointer back on the entrance.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 Q. And now move it ever so slightly to the left.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. Now extend it upwards, directly up.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. Thank you. Do you see that column which has the windows?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the column.
20 Q. Now immediately above the entrance and immediately to the right of
21 that column we see a wider area of the facade being of a slightly darker
22 colour. Please point to that.
23 A. [Indicates]
24 Q. Perhaps the ELMO could zoom back so we can see where the witness
25 is pointing. Thank you.
Page 15365
1 And then immediately to the right of that, we see another vertical
2 light-coloured column similar to the earlier one. Please point to that.
3 A. Where the balconies are. You mean over here.
4 Q. Between the balconies, slightly to the left of the balconies, we
5 can see a whitish edge. Move the pointer.
6 A. [Indicates]
7 Q. Thank you for that. Now leave those photographs there if you
8 will. And at this stage can we see the video from the Oslobodjenje
9 building through to the end of the portion which shows us the student
10 hostels. Thank you. And then it could be stopped.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we could stop the video there, in fact. Thank
13 you.
14 Mr. President, at this stage I'd like to distribute some
15 photographs, being stills taken from the video.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
17 MR. IERACE: I have one colour --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We object, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please explain why.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, we aren't sure that this
22 was developed from this photograph. That's the first thing. And
23 secondly, we have already had numerous problems regarding the reproduction
24 of material. We saw this in the case of maps. We saw that reproduced
25 maps don't have the same references. And I wouldn't like to have an
Page 15366
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Page 15367
1 extract which is made and we don't know how, an extract of material that
2 we have given, that one continues to ask the witness technical questions.
3 Since I see that these questions concern precisions. This procedure
4 doesn't seem to be one that is possible to us. We can't use technical
5 means in an unacceptable manner.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would first like to see the photographs
7 before.
8 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
9 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have been
10 provided with a coloured copy, because I see that there's a difference
11 between the colour and the black and white copies.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could assist, the only other
13 coloured copies I have at this stage are two photocopies of that coloured
14 print. I'm happy to provide one of those to my learned colleague.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's no problem in Mr. Piletta-Zanin having
16 a look at the -- I would say the best copy available, this one. So if
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin would have a look at it. And perhaps ...
18 The Chamber will concentrate for a while on the slightly less
19 quality so the Defence is in a position to look at the best photograph.
20 Perhaps meanwhile, Mr. Ierace, you can explain to us how and by whom this
21 still was made.
22 MR. IERACE: Yes. Yesterday afternoon, after court, the copy of
23 the video that was disclosed by the Defence to the Prosecution was taken
24 to Mr. Zoran Lesic who is an earlier witness in these proceedings. And he
25 took the video, and with his machinery, produced these prints from various
Page 15368
1 positions on the video film. I have some more to come. I received them
2 back from Mr. Lesic late yesterday afternoon. And in due course, we'll
3 get some more colour copies done of these and provide it to the Trial
4 Chamber and to the Defence.
5 Mr. President, the reason I've done this is as I mentioned to you
6 yesterday, when you look at the video on a monitor with a VHS, it's a lot
7 clearer than it is on the courtroom monitors. I don't know that the
8 photographs are any quantum leap from what we see on the screen, but I
9 think they are a little bit better.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as a matter of fact, you asked us to look at the
11 video in a better quality than appears on our screen, and therefore you
12 extract it.
13 MR. IERACE: Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have two problems, two
17 basic problems there. The first one is whether one can know if on the
18 basis of one document that one party provided, whether it's possible to
19 make a patchwork on this basis, cut it up, et cetera. And with regard to
20 this, I think it's very dangerous to manipulate in a certain sense, in
21 inverted commas, documents that have been provided by one of the parties.
22 And secondly, Mr. President, is that this example demonstrates very well
23 the fact that the forces are not equal. We would never had the material
24 possibility of carrying out such an operation with our own documents and
25 to present situations which are totally legible or clear to the witness.
Page 15369
1 The Prosecution has means at its disposal, but this isn't a reason to
2 permit it to edit things in such a way on the basis of our documents. The
3 Defence could never do such a thing. And for this reason, a document is a
4 document, and you can't just cut it up into little pieces like this, take
5 it out of its context.
6 And the other reason is that this was never possible for us to do.
7 We were never able to do this with elements from the Prosecution. We used
8 a banking system. I can put it like this, with regard to documents.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps Mr. Piletta-Zanin could keep
10 his voice down or take his headphones off and whisper.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there has been a repeated order
12 not to speak in your own language in the presence of the witness, not
13 under the control of the Chamber. I'm just --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was speaking
15 French, but why should I speak in English now? [In English] If I cannot
16 use my language, I will do it with pleasure, but I do not see why I
17 shouldn't use my own language.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has ordered you
19 several times, the Defence, not to speak aloud in their own language. You
20 may speak our own language just as much as you want during all the times,
21 but not so loud that the witness might be able to hear what you say.
22 That's the ruling, and you should obey to that ruling.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, in French. He doesn't
24 understand French.
25 JUDGE ORIE: To whom were you speaking Mr. Piletta-Zanin? To whom
Page 15370
1 were you speaking French, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To no one.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You were speaking aloud at a level of noise that
4 could be heard by the witness in a language, as far as I understand at
5 this moment, which was not a language the Chamber or the other party can
6 understand. And we ordered you several times not to do so. I take it
7 when you communicate with Ms. Pilipovic, that you do that in the B/C/S
8 language, and that's what you are not allowed to do at this volume.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's the ruling you should obey.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 11.00. And
13 Mr. Ierace, yes.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I could hand up the other
15 photographs at this stage. It might save time, to Your Honours so --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that we can see. Of course, we cannot easily
17 compare them with the video unless we would have a copy of the video as
18 well. Yes, if there would be a copy of the video available as well so we
19 can use our time as good as possible to identify. Are there any ...
20 At this moment, we do not need the video and the other
21 photographs, Mr. Ierace.
22 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 11.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I was informed that you were able
Page 15371
1 to identify the spots on which you'd like to address the Chamber. We
2 would like to receive the locations first, and then read it, and then
3 hear. Because very often, there's some confusion because we are not
4 prepared. So there's no way not to discuss or not to give you an
5 opportunity to raise the issue, but rather, we would rather first see the
6 places so that we can first read what's in the transcript in order to
7 better understand your objections or submissions. That is the issue. And
8 perhaps it would even be good if the -- we could make, if you have
9 identified the places and the words, to give that also to the Prosecution
10 so that they also can prepare and that we can smoothly discuss the matter
11 once we have oriented ourselves on the problem. That's the first issue.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, with
13 pleasure. But now, what I want to say is that this is page 1527 [As
14 interpreted].
15 JUDGE ORIE: Of today?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We are
17 speaking, Mr. President, of the period where I said that the witness
18 clearly had said "never," "nikada," in Serbian, and this is what I am
19 speaking about.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We are talking about yesterday because you asked for
21 the tapes of yesterday and the day before yesterday. Yesterday, page
22 1527, as I understand, yes, the word "never." Yes.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No, the page is false,
24 Mr. President. With all due respect, I said 15297.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's now 15297. That's the page. Is there any line
Page 15372
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Page 15373
1 number?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The line is 13.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's about the word "never." Yes. And any
4 other?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, I can start, if you wish.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, we first want to read what is in there, in the
7 transcript of yesterday, and then we'll hear your argument. So we'll
8 first read what we -- yes. So we'll concentrate on page 15297, and then
9 we'll hear from you. Is that B/C/S version or is that -- no, we have no
10 B/C/S transcript. Is that English or French?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Both, Mr. President. It is
12 the verbal transcript, so-called, of the B/C/S, and then we have the
13 English transcript, and probably in the French as well which I didn't have
14 time to hear.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could perhaps the Prosecution during the next
16 break check on whether they find a similar in the original, perhaps, with
17 the help of a translator. And if they would agree, then we don't have to
18 spend any more time to it, that the word "never" has appeared. If you
19 would not agree, then we have to discuss the matter. Yes. Okay, we'll do
20 that, then. Deal with it after the break.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, so that it can
22 be done, Mr. Ierace has to have access to the Serbian transcript.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But that's -- the most important thing is what has
24 been said. So what we should hear is the -- what is said in B/C/S. And I
25 do not see any reason why we could not check that during the break.
Page 15374
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Mr. President, indeed. So
4 that everyone can save time, may I just state here in four words what the
5 witness said, in four words, not in the brief way, for the Serb booth, but
6 in four words -- thank you. It has now been interpreted, in four words
7 the witness said "he was never stationed." He was never stationed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You used the B/C/S words, and the translation will
9 tell us what they -- yes. You said four words in B/C/S, and we'll then
10 hear the translation.
11 Could you please repeat them for the translators.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] "He was never stationed."
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' correction, if it was about a
14 tank, then it is "it was never stationed."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask, again, because I can listen only to
16 one language at one time, also to hear the French translation so that I
17 can write it down.
18 Could you please repeat what you just translated.
19 Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a
21 mistake here in the French interpretation now because that's where we have
22 to be very precise. The witness never said "I was never stationed there."
23 I'm going to repeat the four words, mean the following: "It was never
24 stationed." And we were speaking of the tank, just to remind you, not of
25 the witness.
Page 15375
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So -- now, that's clear now.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And, Mr. President, after
3 Mr. Ierace can check this, could I please make a very, very brief
4 submission so that we can all avoid, and particularly the Chamber, to
5 waste more time on these matters.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... that's neither
7 of the parties is going to tell the other party how to save time. This is
8 a ruling from now on. The Chamber is very well aware that a lot of time
9 is lost now and then and is wasted now and then. And it does not assist
10 the Chamber to hear where one party thinks that the other is wasting time.
11 Chamber is fully aware of where this happens.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Is it the same issue or
14 another issue?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not
16 what I said, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's what I said.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there another issue in respect
20 of these four words to be raised?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'd like to say why our
24 rights have been offended, but if I cannot, then I won't.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you can do the last two minutes
Page 15376
1 before the next break.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] One minute will not be enough.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I said two minutes. We'll give a decision on the
4 objection of the Defence on the use of a still of a videotape. The
5 Chamber has carefully considered the argument raised by the Defence. The
6 Chamber agrees with the Defence that one should be very careful if work is
7 done on a specific object such as a tape to make a still out of it. On
8 the basis of the explanation given by Mr. Ierace and on the basis of our
9 own observation, the Chamber has at this moment no reason not to accept
10 that the photograph presented is a still of the videotape. The argument
11 about the context, the Chamber considers that the context of this
12 photograph is still available in the tape because that is still there.
13 The Chamber also has carefully considered the equality of arms involved
14 and raised by the Defence. The Chamber is -- finds it very important to
15 keep a close eye on the equality of arms, and as demonstrated yesterday,
16 where the Defence felt that they might have no access to audiotapes, and
17 where the Chamber tried to assist the Defence as good as it could, the
18 Chamber is of the opinion that if at -- in a similar situation the Defence
19 would need a still of a videotape, it always can address the Chamber and
20 the Chamber will do whatever the Chamber can to put the Defence in the
21 same position. And therefore, to see whether such a still can be
22 available to the Defence as well.
23 The objection is denied, but the Chamber thought it important to
24 give a bit more detail the reasons why the objection was denied.
25 You may proceed, Mr. Ierace, if the witness has been escorted into
Page 15377
1 the courtroom again.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, we wanted to
5 know how much time has the Prosecution got left because we would also like
6 this point to be respected. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yesterday -- you may escort the witness into
8 the courtroom.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 There have been considerable objections. I'll consider
11 together -- I'll ask further information to the registrar, and I'll
12 consider the matters together with the other Judges in the Chamber.
13 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. To save time later on,
15 could I alert Madam Registrar that at some point I may require these two
16 photographs: P3259, just that plain exhibit number. I think there were
17 two photographs attached to it. Thank you.
18 Might the witness be shown the still from the video. I think the
19 exhibit number of that is P3761.
20 THE USHER: There is no picture on the witness's monitor.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do not see anything on my monitor at this
22 moment.
23 Yes, I now find a -- the Judges have the photograph on their
24 screen now. Is that true for the parties as well? Then we can continue.
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you.
Page 15378
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4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
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13 English transcripts.
14
15
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18
19
20
21
22
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Page 15379
1 Q. Sir, I would like you to compare the photograph in front of you to
2 the photographs you looked at earlier. In particular, the telephoto
3 photograph. By looking at both photographs, are you able to identify on
4 this new photograph the ground entrance to the high-rise buildings at
5 Alipasino Polje? I should say "a ground entrance" to one of the high-rise
6 buildings in Alipasino Polje.
7 A. It is a very unclear picture, but I can see two identical
8 entrances.
9 Q. All right. Would you please point to them.
10 A. One. Two. Second one.
11 Q. Okay. Witness, would you take a marker pen --
12 MR. IERACE: Is it blue or black, Mr. President?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Blue is for the Prosecution.
14 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
15 Q. And circle the two, what appear to be the two entrances.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. Now, I appreciate the image is not very clear. Do
18 there appear to be some roofs between the video camera and the entrances,
19 just beneath the entrances?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the quality of
21 what we have been given, the quality of the picture on the screen, does
22 not allow us to prepare for this line of questioning. I thought it would
23 be just good to have this in the transcript. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We certainly would have preferred to have the
25 photographs, the original coloured photographs. If there's any need, you
Page 15380
1 can always ask to inspect them, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The quality is, of
2 course, also limited because of the source not being completely clear.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. IERACE:
5 Q. Do there appear to be roofs in the image immediately beneath the
6 entrances?
7 A. I can't see it clearly.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would like the witness to now see
10 another photograph taken in the same circumstances, P3759. And that one
11 before the witness at the moment might now be removed, along with the
12 other photographs. They can be removed as well.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just
14 like to make one observation. We had a break. During the break, we could
15 have had a look at this photograph. And this was not the case. That was
16 not done. And this is an ambush. We could have prepared ourselves
17 finally to be in a position to see something, and deliberately this was
18 not done. The photographs were not handed to us during the pause. If
19 this is considered to be normal, that's very well. The Defence will have
20 to defend blindly.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber didn't ask for the determination it
22 has to make the photographs. It would have been proper, but I should have
23 perhaps also mentioned that to give the photographs to the Defence before
24 the break if this would result in any consequences, we'll then see. Let's
25 proceed at this moment, and see whether -- but I think it would have been
Page 15381
1 proper to do so, Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I agree with that. I did,
3 however, mention on the record that I had more photographs here which I
4 could make available. But I should have done it anyway.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Defence could have asked at that very moment
6 even if the Chamber for its determination would not need to have it.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. IERACE:
9 Q. Now, you told us yesterday that the two student hostel buildings
10 were identical to each other. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And please accept from me, for the moment, that this is an image
13 taken from the video that you saw yesterday of the student hostel which is
14 further down the slope. Do you remember yesterday you said "this is the
15 way the hostels appeared throughout the war"?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the Chamber would prefer to have the
17 video always played to the point where the still is taken so that we also
18 can compare it.
19 MR. IERACE: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So if you would please instruct the technical booth
21 to play the video.
22 MR. IERACE: If the booth could play the video until such time as
23 I ask that the image be paused.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [Videotape played]
Page 15382
1 MR. IERACE: I think it has to be rewound to the beginning.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think we were almost there.
3 MR. IERACE: In fact, it was there. There might have been two
4 images.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a bit back.
6 MR. IERACE: I think forward again, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you give the instructions.
8 MR. IERACE: Yes, continue to go forward slightly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, still a bit more. A bit more. We were almost
10 there.
11 MR. IERACE: I think it might have been at the beginning,
12 Mr. President. I think that was where the tape ended.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The last image of that sequence. Okay, let's leave
14 it there for a while. Please proceed.
15 MR. IERACE: I don't think that's the image, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not.
17 MR. IERACE: It's earlier on. Perhaps if we go back to the point
18 where we see the Oslobodenje building.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the tape be rewound so that we then ...
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you. Stop there. All right.
21 Q. Now, in front of you, you have an image of what you see on the
22 screen approximately. I draw your attention to the -- what appears to be
23 in the image the bottom three levels of that building. Would you
24 please --
25 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we could now go to the photograph,
Page 15383
1 Mr. President, if it's convenient.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the photograph may be put on the ELMO.
3 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
4 Q. Would you please point to the bottom three levels of the image --
5 I'm sorry, of the building which appear in the image.
6 A. [Indicates]
7 Q. All right. Would you please place your pointer lower than the
8 floors you are indicating.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. Lower again.
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. Thank you. Now lower again.
13 A. [Indicates]
14 Q. Thank you. Please leave your pointer on that last area.
15 A. [Indicates]
16 Q. To the left.
17 A. [Indicates]
18 Q. Thank you. Now, those three levels that we can see were part of
19 that building. Is that the position?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Move your pointer to the right-hand half of the building on the
22 same level.
23 A. [Indicates]
24 Q. Thank you. Move the -- please keep your pointer at that position.
25 At that stage, we can see -- the camera is looking more or less straight
Page 15384
1 on to that wing of the building, perhaps slightly to the left of straight
2 on. And apparently, we can see through a section of those bottom levels.
3 Is that correct?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object.
7 MR. IERACE: Should the witness leave the courtroom,
8 Mr. President?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Most certainly -- very
10 certainly.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness to -- I'm sorry that I have
12 to ask you to, but sometimes that's part of the fate of a witness, Mr. DP.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to say that the
15 camera would have been looking practically opposite is probably erroneous.
16 Also, it would be nice to know what actually it means by opposite, but
17 when we look at the carrier, that is the basis.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the English transcript says
19 "straight on that wing" and not "opposite." Is there any translation
20 problem? Could you please read the English transcript and see --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, there's no problem of
22 translation. This is the way that the question was phrased in English,
23 which doesn't seem correct to me. I don't think that we can say that the
24 photograph was taken opposite this wing for a very good reason. That is,
25 if we examine the basis, they are not at all in the axis taken, or that is
Page 15385
1 from the imaginary point from which this photograph was taken. We can see
2 that the way that the carrier is the basis, they would need an angle of
3 more than 45 degrees, and it wasn't taken opposite. We cannot say that it
4 was a frontal position. We cannot say this to the witness because this is
5 not the truth because it appears in the exhibit --
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, although I did add the words slightly
7 to the left, in the interests of saving time, if that's the objection, I'm
8 happy to rephrase it
9 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to prevent whatever comes, there is a
10 lot of evidence that this building and the other similar building is a
11 building which consists of three wings, so that means that if these wings
12 are equally divided over the building, that the angle is 120 degrees
13 approximately. So if the parties would agree with that, that we are
14 looking at two wings of a building which make an angle of approximately
15 120 degrees, then we know within what limits we are as to the angle under
16 which the photograph was taken. I'm not saying that we know what the
17 angle is, but we know what -- in what limits the angle approximately is.
18 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
19 courtroom again. Mr. Ierace, I heard you say that you'll rephrase the
20 question. And let's proceed.
21 If there's any basic disagreement on what I said before as far as
22 the building, I'm not saying what the final determination of the Chamber
23 is, of course, but that there is a lot of evidence. I mean, we have seen
24 a lot of maps with the, yes ...
25 [The witness entered court]
Page 15386
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is a disagreement here,
4 and I can explain why, if you wish me to do so.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because simply we know that
7 there are three wings. I have never seen -- we don't know whether these
8 three wings are equally divided between them. Perhaps there is a larger
9 wing on one side than on the others.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I meant not whether large or -- but
11 approximately to what corners. And I'm referring to all of the maps on
12 which we see these buildings appear, and the shape of these buildings on
13 the maps. But if you disagree, then as I said, it's not a determination.
14 I was just reflecting what until now has been in evidence and of which I
15 never heard any contestation.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Sir, would you please take your pointer, and place it on the upper
19 levels of the left -- can you not hear me?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear Mr. Ierace?
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Would you please take your pointer and place it on the upper
23 levels of the left-hand wing of the building in the photograph.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 Q. Thank you. Do you see there appear to be reasonably sharp shadows
Page 15387
1 in the top left-hand portion of each window space forming a diagonal line,
2 a series of diagonal lines over the facade? Do you see that?
3 A. You mean this?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I think that is a reflection from the sun.
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. If the sun is in a certain position.
8 Q. Yes. So we see what appears to be the effects of sunlight in the
9 form of light-coloured areas, and then dark-coloured areas clearly
10 indicating shade. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Now, place your pointer in the lower levels of that
13 same left-hand side, where you had it before.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. Thank you. Now as we look at the spaces between those walls, we
16 see a lot of dark areas. Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And we appear to see vertical columns with sunlight on them
19 towards the front, around the area of your pointer. Correct?
20 A. Is this what you are referring to?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Now take your pointer to the right in those same lower
24 levels.
25 A. [Indicates]
Page 15388
1 Q. Thank you. Place your pointer one level further up.
2 A. [Indicates]
3 Q. Thank you. And in the two cavities immediately to the left of
4 your pointer, do you see some light-coloured areas. If so, please point
5 to them.
6 A. Yes, you can see that.
7 Q. All right. And place your pointer again on the last of those two
8 areas.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. No. Over to the left.
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. Further.
13 A. [Indicates]
14 Q. Further again.
15 A. [Indicates]
16 Q. Thank you. And now take it down a level.
17 A. [Indicates]
18 Q. Thank you. And do you see a light-coloured area there as well?
19 Do you see that, a light-coloured area?
20 A. Yes, but there seems to be some sort of shield here. I don't know
21 what. Some kind of protection, some kind of screen.
22 Q. All right. I'm going to suggest to you that when you watch the
23 video again in a few minutes, what we are seeing in those squares is
24 daylight behind the building. Do you understand what I'm inviting you to
25 observe in the next few minutes?
Page 15389
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. When the video is replayed, please also look at the
3 same area on the other building; that is, the lower floors.
4 MR. IERACE: I would ask that the booth now replay the last minute
5 or so of the video up to the point -- withdraw that. I would ask that we
6 now see the video from the point of Oslobodjenje onwards until I ask that
7 it be paused.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. IERACE: Could we please rewind the video to the scene where
10 we see the Oslobodjenje building.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The technicians might not know what is the
12 Oslobodjenje building. Starting at the beginning, perhaps.
13 MR. IERACE: From this point onwards will do. I'm sorry,
14 Mr. President, to interrupt.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now please play it forward at normal speed.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. IERACE: All right. Please stop there. And rewind slowly.
18 Rewind slower -- rewind, please. Thank you. Please stop. All right.
19 Q. I think we're now looking at the second of the student hostels.
20 Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And beneath the horizontal white lines, we can see a dark area
23 which includes what appears to be a street light. Do you see that, the
24 street light? Slightly to the left of the middle of the picture?
25 A. Yes.
Page 15390
1 Q. To the right of the street light, in the dark area, do you see a
2 square of a lighter colour? It seems to have a slight reddish tinge to
3 it.
4 A. I can see that the colour is different. I apologise. I'm
5 slightly colour blind. I can't distinguish between red and blue. There
6 is something that is different.
7 Q. Yes. In any event, it seems to be lighter, significantly lighter
8 in colour, whatever colour it is, to the surrounding area. Correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Given the position of the sun we noticed earlier, one would expect
11 that the area beneath the building could well be in shade. Correct?
12 A. Yes, in the lower right-hand corner. That's how it appears, at
13 least.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. I
15 object.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yet again, I don't think we
18 are referring to the same building. We are speaking about the same
19 building. The fact that there is an angle, that the sun doesn't strike
20 it, strike the facade in the same manner perhaps --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you cannot explain about the --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Then, could the
23 witness leave.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out of
25 the courtroom.
Page 15391
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I first see, you say -- your objection is you say
3 we are not talking about the same building. As far as I understand it,
4 questions are put by Mr. Ierace about the building on the screen. Whether
5 this is the same building as any other building we saw before is a
6 different matter and certainly fit if you think there would be any
7 confusion for cross-examination. But if there's any other reason why you
8 object, please tell us.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's the same
10 building, but it's not the same wing.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is there any misunderstanding?
12 MR. IERACE: Perhaps there's a misunderstanding, Mr. President.
13 This is the -- if I could put it this way: The building that we saw in
14 the photograph earlier is the building which is presently the UN field
15 office in Sarajevo. I think that could be generally accepted. I think
16 Ms. Pilipovic would be aware of that. Perhaps she could agree to that.
17 In any event, the building which we now see on the screen is not
18 that one, but its twin. It is not a wing of the same building as the
19 earlier one. It is the same wing of the building which is in the
20 photograph.
21 It might assist, Mr. President, if the video could be played for
22 the Defence to see that it's a separate building. I would have no
23 objection to that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If perhaps before the witness comes in again
25 that this part of the video be replayed.
Page 15392
1 MR. IERACE: It might be easier if it's played forward slowly
2 because we should then see the break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MR. IERACE: I think that's going to take us in the wrong
6 direction.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well forward is what I would usually refer to as
8 backwards. Mr. Ierace, if you say to the left or to the right, it will
9 certainly create no confusion, more to the left, I take it.
10 MR. IERACE: Well, it depends on where the camera is moving. So
11 if it's played backwards, that might give us a view to the left.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could it be played backwards.
13 MR. IERACE: Stop there, please. It should now be clear that the
14 building on the left of the screen is the present UN field office. The
15 building on the right is the twin of the earlier building. The building
16 in the photograph is the building on the left.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And you're putting questions to the witness in
18 respect of the other building.
19 MR. IERACE: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if the objection is that it's not the same
21 building, you do agree on that; it is the other building.
22 MR. IERACE: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is that clear, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for having put the
25 question to me, Mr. President. But I'm still not quite convinced. I'm
Page 15393
1 going to try and identify by using a photograph the background, but we can
2 continue, I think, and we will see. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness
4 into the courtroom.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the video could be forwarded, moved forward
7 slowly. Further. Please stop there.
8 Q. All right. Now --
9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
10 Q. All right. Now, I asked you whether you could see on the screen
11 to the right of the light post a squarish shaped area which was lighter
12 than the surrounding area. I think you said that you could. I think I
13 then asked you whether, having regard to the position of the sun, it would
14 be unsurprising if the lower levels of this building were partly in shade
15 at the time this video was taken.
16 A. I really don't know.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. I know that this building has three wings, but as to the position
19 of the sun ...
20 Q. Okay. You appreciate that in the upper levels, the shade is quite
21 heavy in the cavities between the floors and walls. Do you agree with
22 that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I suggest to you that the light square that I referred to earlier,
25 to the right of the light post, and in fact is lighter in colour because
Page 15394
1 we're seeing daylight, the effects of daylight, behind the building.
2 A. That's possible, but I don't know.
3 Q. All right. In the foreground, we see what appears to be a piece
4 of glass, as one might expect if the video was shot through a broken
5 window space. Would you agree with that?
6 A. Do you mean the lower right-hand corner?
7 Q. Yes, I do.
8 A. This could also be shadow caused by the sun on the building over
9 there. It's quite easy.
10 Q. Okay. But you agree a possibility is it's a piece of broken glass
11 in the corner of the window frame?
12 A. It's possible.
13 Q. Now, in the lower part of the picture, we see what appears to be a
14 flat-roofed building with a dark window immediately facing the camera. Do
15 you see that?
16 A. To the left, in the left part of the photograph?
17 Q. We can't see where you're pointing on the screen unfortunately.
18 But towards the bottom of the image, right at the bottom, so the bottom
19 quarter, do you see running across the screen what appears to be a
20 building with a flat roof?
21 A. I asked you whether it was to the left, on the left side of the
22 photograph?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point at the -- no, no, it's not
24 possible.
25 MR. IERACE:
Page 15395
1 Q. It's not -- it extends from the left corner of the screen,
2 certainly as far as the darker diagonal part of the image, and one can see
3 behind the darker area that it indeed extends almost all the way to the
4 bottom right-hand corner of the screen.
5 A. Yes, I can see it.
6 Q. All right. Now, do you know of such a building in Nedzarici to
7 the west, approximately the west, of the two student hostels, such a
8 building that was there in Nedzarici during the war?
9 A. Yes. But physically, that was outside of the territory of
10 Nedzarici.
11 Q. All right. To be clear on this, I'm not suggesting to you that
12 the video was shot from the school for the blind. I'm not suggesting that
13 we know where it was shot --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we no longer
15 have -- we no longer have this on the screen.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have it again. Yes.
17 MR. IERACE:
18 Q. I'm not suggesting to you it was taken from any particular place,
19 because we don't know. Do you understand what I'm saying to you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Having said that, and having regard to the angles of
22 the buildings, I suggest to you it seems that the position was further to
23 the right of the school for the blind, that is, closer to towards the
24 Oslobodenje building. What do you say to that?
25 A. In relation to what? I didn't understand that.
Page 15396
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The point from where the photograph
3 was taken?
4 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be quite unclear when you say to the
5 right, because it depends on what direction you look, and I take it
6 there's confusion.
7 MR. IERACE: Of course. Yes. I'm sorry. I left something out of
8 the question.
9 Q. Do you remember the photograph I showed you earlier where you
10 pointed out to us the three buildings of the school for the blind earlier
11 this morning?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you remember that to the right of those buildings, you
14 said -- and behind them, was an orchard?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And behind the orchard, as one looked at the photograph, were some
17 houses?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And as one looked at the photograph, the orchard and where the
20 houses would have been was to the right of the school for the blind?
21 A. Yes. When you're looking from the student hall of residence.
22 Q. Yes. Thank you for that. I'm suggesting to you that the position
23 of the video camera was somewhere to the right of the school for the blind
24 in terms of that photograph you saw earlier this morning, and it may well
25 have been further back. Would you think that a fair comment?
Page 15397
1 A. With regard to the photograph or the video recording?
2 Q. With regard to the video recording in terms of the position of the
3 camera?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there's one final photograph, but
7 maybe from the interests of time, maybe I can avoid using it. Could the
8 video proceed forward at a normal pace.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. IERACE: Stop there. Now, for the benefit of the transcript,
11 at this stage we're looking at the building that is the UN field office.
12 That is the student hostel building further down the slope to the north.
13 And the right wing of that building as one looks at the video.
14 Q. I draw your attention to the top floors of that wing, and we see
15 extensive damage. Is that correct, to the facade?
16 A. Sorry, just a correction. This building is still the student hall
17 of residence, and the building to the left is the UN building. This
18 building is not used as office space.
19 Q. I'm sorry.
20 MR. IERACE: Might the video please be played forward slowly.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. IERACE: Please stop. I stand corrected. You're quite right.
23 Q. The top floors of the left wing of that building have extensive
24 damage to the facade. Do you agree?
25 A. Yes.
Page 15398
1 Q. The horizontal strips which we see of a light colour, were they
2 concrete, indeed, reinforced concrete?
3 A. I think it's Ciporex, which is a soft material. It's only a sort
4 of partition.
5 Q. We're talking about the white horizontal stripes that we see on
6 the screen?
7 A. Yes, the horizontal rows, that's what we're talking about. The
8 windows are above them. The windows are installed above them.
9 Q. Was that damage done by shells?
10 A. I couldn't say exactly.
11 Q. Was that damage done by fire from the Bosnian Serb army side of
12 the confrontation lines?
13 A. This part of the building does face our side. It faced our front
14 line.
15 Q. I suggest to you that given the extent of the damage, it must have
16 been caused by shells or rockets rather than small-arms fire. What do you
17 say to that?
18 A. Perhaps it was caused by a hand-held rocket launcher because
19 Ciporex is a very soft material.
20 Q. All right.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the video now be moved I think
22 in a forward direction, although perhaps the Defence could assist me, to
23 the red buildings. Is that forwards or back?
24 JUDGE ORIE: What red buildings, Mr. Ierace?
25 MR. IERACE: The buildings of a red colour which were the subject
Page 15399
1 of examination-in-chief yesterday. I'll just check my notes,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it was a previous part but I'm not
4 quite sure.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to help
8 Mr. Ierace, but I haven't understood which building he's referring to, the
9 building with the red roof.
10 MR. IERACE: It's all right. If the tape could be reversed
11 quickly so that we can follow the image.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, could we
13 take the time into account because the Prosecution has taken up a lot of
14 time, more than the Defence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The -- it's not easy to assess, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
16 due to translation issues, due to objections on both sides. And to be
17 quite honest, the Chamber cannot at this moment make a precise account on
18 the global account the Defence has taken more time than the Prosecution.
19 So please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might the tape now be
21 rewound at a faster speed than normal but with the image on the screen so
22 I can alert the booth as to when to stop it.
23 Please stop. All right.
24 Q. Now, you told us yesterday, for the benefit of the transcript I
25 should say, that the image we now see on the screen is the side of a
Page 15400
1 high-rise building with a series of holes in that side. The colour is red
2 with some horizontal lighter coloured stripes which appear to denote the
3 floors of the building, and we are seeing it through a craggy black
4 outline as if the film was shot through an opening.
5 Now, you told us yesterday in relation to one of the holes that we
6 see on the side of this building that it was used for sniping. Do you
7 remember saying that?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. IERACE: I ask that the film be rewound slowly.
10 Q. Whilst that's being rewound, you also said that, as I understood
11 it --
12 MR. IERACE: Please stop. Stop there, and go forward slowly. Go
13 forward slowly. Please stop. Forward slower again. I'm sorry. Forward
14 again. Thank you. All right. Please stop.
15 Q. Now, you said that the hole could have been made from within by
16 the enemy forces so as to specifically create a hole for sniping. Do you
17 recall saying that?
18 A. Yes, with the already-existing windows, the windows that are
19 there. I think that these were the windows that the toilets had or the
20 storage rooms, but they were the windows that the smaller rooms had.
21 Q. Yes. The windows you now refer to I take it are those which
22 appear in a vertical line directly under the apex of the roof. Is that
23 correct? We see one on each storey.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. To the left of that line, we see another hole approximately two
Page 15401
1 storeys down from the top. Do you see that?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Now, that also could have been made by a shell, couldn't it?
4 A. I don't think so because there are two walls here. You've got a
5 brick wall, and on the inside you have reinforced concrete.
6 Q. Yes, I appreciate that. But that's not a reason as to why it
7 wasn't a shell, is it?
8 A. I don't think that a shell, a mortar shell, could create such a
9 hole.
10 Q. I'm not asking you about mortars. The Bosnian Serb army also had
11 the benefit of artillery guns, didn't they?
12 A. We didn't have such things, and they weren't active in the
13 surroundings of Nedzarici.
14 Q. When you say "we didn't have such things" do you mean the army
15 surrounding Sarajevo, or do you mean the part that was in Nedzarici?
16 A. No, I was only referring to the army in Nedzarici. What happened
17 in the surroundings, I don't know. I said we didn't have any electricity
18 or water. We had no TV.
19 Q. All right. Stop there. I said to you that the most efficient way
20 to take out a sniper is with another sniper. Do you agree?
21 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
22 Q. You don't know. Snipers -- I withdraw that. You've told us that
23 there were snipers on the enemy side operating against you from a variety
24 of positions. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, I state this with certainty.
Page 15402
1 Q. Were they operating from the student hostels?
2 A. I know they were operating from the Oslobodjenje building that we
3 spoke about a lot. But as far as the student hostels are concerned, I
4 don't know, because they didn't see our positions. I was hit with a
5 recoilless shell from the student hostel.
6 Q. I'm not asking you about whether you were injured. And in
7 relation to the building on the screen, you've told us that snipers
8 operated against your forces. Correct?
9 A. I'm sorry.
10 Q. It's okay.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, given what you tell us was your vulnerable position in
13 Nedzarici with snipers operating against you from high-rise locations on
14 different sides, I suggest to you that the obvious way of responding to
15 that threat was by the use of snipers on the Bosnian Serb army side. What
16 do you say to that?
17 A. I state with conviction that there were no snipers in Nedzarici in
18 this part of the building that you are showing from the recording. It was
19 facing -- for us it was not an advantageous position because you can see
20 it below that there was a very large field. They were wounding our
21 soldiers that we couldn't go and get during the day. It's some kind of a
22 point of Nedzarici. It's not frontally facing Nedzarici. It is facing
23 sideways, flankways.
24 Q. Sir, at any stage during the war, either in Nedzarici or anywhere
25 else, did you ever see a sniper weapon on the Bosnian -- what you
Page 15403
1 understood to be a weapon of the Bosnian Serb army?
2 A. Personally, no.
3 Q. You told us yesterday that bricks would be removed, or at least
4 small holes made, by the snipers operating on the Bosnian government side
5 so that they could shoot from a protected space. Do you remember saying
6 that?
7 A. Yes, I remember, but that's not how I said it. I said that this
8 was the first hole behind which you have some kind of partition wall. And
9 on this other partition wall, you also have a smaller hole that was made.
10 And we were facing at least 4.000 windows and holes, so we couldn't
11 possibly know where from. And on here, we can see holes for --
12 Q. Okay. Now, we can see from this image that the camera seems to be
13 shooting through a very rough hole. Do you agree with that? We can see
14 the outlines of a hole through which the camera is shooting, or at least
15 the outlines of an opening with rough edges through which the camera is
16 filming.
17 A. Yes, you could say that because of the shadows.
18 Q. Are you familiar with the buildings on the Bosnian Serb army side
19 which faced this particular building at this particular angle; that is,
20 the building we see on the screen?
21 A. Yes. In that buildings, it houses, and mostly in that part, they
22 only have one storey. [As interpreted]
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. IERACE: Now, might the video be stopped, and at the moment I
25 don't require the witness be shown an exhibit.
Page 15404
1 Q. Yesterday, you told us of three barriers that were erected on the
2 street leading down to the intersection of Ante Babica Street, and the
3 street we know as Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street. Do you remember saying
4 that, three barriers across the road.
5 A. Yes. And I said that first they had put two upper checkpoints
6 just before the barricades before the conflict in Sarajevo started.
7 Q. I would be grateful if you could confine your answers just to the
8 questions that I'm asking in the interests of saving time.
9 Did you understand the purpose of those barriers to be to protect
10 persons on the other side from being fired at, being seen and being fired
11 at, from your forces?
12 A. No, not for those three barricades.
13 Q. What did you understand their purpose to be?
14 A. Well, I've already answered earlier. Those first two barricades
15 remained from that time. They had put containers in old vehicles. And
16 then when other barricades were erected, but the nearest one, the closest
17 one to us, that is where a trench went through, a trench corridor, where
18 the enemy forces went through. And just across Vojnicko Polje there were
19 a few buildings that they occupied. And it was a visual protection for
20 their own soldiers.
21 Q. They were visual protections for their own soldiers. Correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And I think you mentioned containers. If we can talk about them
24 this way, the barrier closest to the intersection as barrier one, the
25 barrier in the middle, barrier two; and the barrier closest to your
Page 15405
1 positions, barrier three. Which of those three barriers, or which of them
2 were containers?
3 A. On the barricades, there were those old barricades that remained.
4 When they made the third barricade with a trench through which their
5 soldiers went, we were no longer able to see what was happening there. It
6 was completely sheltered from view.
7 Q. So the last you saw of barrier one included a container or
8 containers. Is that correct? Before you could no longer see it.
9 A. No. We --
10 Q. What was barrier one made from when you last saw it during the
11 war?
12 A. We only saw the barricade which was the closest one to us. You
13 understand? Further, we could no longer see.
14 Q. Have you ever personally seen a barricade at position number 1
15 during the war?
16 A. If we're speaking about barricade number 1, the closest one to our
17 positions, then, yes. I don't know what you mean by barricade number 1.
18 Q. Let's call the barricade which is closest to your positions
19 barricade number 3; the middle one, barricade number 2; and the barricade
20 closest to the intersection, that is, the barricade furthest away from
21 your positions, barricade number 1. Sir, during the war, did you
22 personally ever see barricade 1? Yes or no.
23 A. No.
24 Q. You never saw it. Is that your evidence, during the war?
25 A. Yes, I'm stating this because we only saw the barricade number 3.
Page 15406
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you how much time you think you
2 still need?
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would have thought around 40
4 minutes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems for the Chamber is that
6 bookkeeping, which is not our favorite sport, becomes so complicated
7 because of the many, many objections where it seems that I'm not very
8 successful in keeping the parties within certain limits as far as their
9 objections are concerned.
10 Would you please, until the next break, prioritise your subjects
11 in the best possible way because the Chamber will have to consider what to
12 do.
13 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.
14 Q. All right, now, you never saw barrier 1. You never saw barrier 2
15 during the war. You only saw barrier 3. Is that your evidence?
16 A. I told you already; when the conflicts broke out, you were able to
17 see number 1 and number 2.
18 Q. You already told us that you never saw --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness was in the middle
22 of answering the question. He was interrupted. This is not normal, and I
23 believe that he is interrupted in a relatively aggressive manner.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I agree with you that the Chamber doesn't like any
25 raising of voices which it hears sometimes.
Page 15407
1 May I ask you now, because your last answer might have caused
2 confusion where you were stopped halfway. We have three barriers. The
3 closest to Ante Babica Street, close to the intersection. The one closest
4 to your positions. And the one in between. During the war, you told us
5 that you've seen the barrier closest to your positions.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said at the very beginning of the
7 war.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the very beginning of the war. Then the --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was possible to see it, but it
10 was just at the very beginning of the war, barricade number 1. Closest to
11 the Ante Babica intersection --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, you now called that ... I'm asking - please
13 forget about the numbers for the time - closest to your positions, you've
14 seen that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. After three months of war,
16 that's the only one, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The middle one?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they made the barricade which
19 was the closest one to us, we were no longer to see anything else. Do you
20 understand? I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So you say in the beginning, you might have seen the
22 middle one, but as soon as the barricade closest to our position was
23 erected, then we could not see the middle one any more. Yes?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the one close to the intersection with the Ante
Page 15408
1 Babica Road, have you ever seen that ever?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said at the very beginning of the
3 war, yes, because that was the first one that was erected. It was the
4 first one that was erected.
5 JUDGE ORIE: For how long did you see that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps for two months, from the
7 beginning of the conflict.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you describe it? Did it consist of
9 sheets, of containers, of whatever? Could you describe how the barrier
10 was?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, from the
12 containers, made of containers, and old vehicles. It was a physical
13 obstacle so you couldn't get through, physical barrier.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, containers and old vehicles.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And then -- and it was made in
16 this way, so that when they were doing the checkpoints on the first
17 barricades, so that you would have to slow down. You couldn't go
18 directly, but if you went with a car you would have to slow down and go
19 next to it. The first one and the second. The third one was straight.
20 And as I said, at the beginning, that they were even putting some parts of
21 wardrobes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've got an answer to my questions. Please
23 proceed, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE:
25 Q. The building that you told us, or the house that was alongside
Page 15409
1 that appeared -- I'll withdraw that. Earlier I showed you two
2 photographs, one being a telephoto shot taken from the same position as
3 the other, and you told us that the building which appeared in the
4 foreground was not there during the war. There had been another building.
5 How high was that earlier building? In this way, was it just a ground
6 floor or was it a ground floor with more levels on top of the ground
7 floor?
8 A. Do you mean the building that can be seen clearly on the
9 photograph that I was pointing at?
10 JUDGE ORIE: You were pointing at the building, and you said
11 between that building with a red, black roof, and the Institute of the
12 Blind, there had been another building before the war. Mr. Ierace is
13 asking you how high was that building that is not there any more on the
14 photograph? How high was that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think two storeys. A ground floor
16 and a storey.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. IERACE: All right.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown map P1785.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. IERACE: It was shown to the witness yesterday by the Defence.
23 Q. Yesterday, you told us that there was a cannon more or less at the
24 point which appears on this map marked with the number 23. Do you
25 remember saying that?
Page 15410
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you ever see this cannon in that position?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Will you show us on the map where you were when you saw it?
5 A. I was in the top of the barracks because it was snowing. For a
6 very long time we looking where the fire was from. We couldn't find out
7 because there was a road that was made in the hill. They had also cut
8 through a part of the hill. And then by the road, they put a camouflage
9 net.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The question was where you were when you saw the
11 cannon. You're explaining a lot of things, but could you please
12 concentrate very much on the question; answer that, yes. So where you
13 were.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. When you say at the top of the barracks, how many floors up were
16 you? Ground plus how many floors?
17 A. Ground floor plus two storeys. And I didn't say I was on the top.
18 I said I was in the barracks, in the upper part of the barrack because the
19 barrack has more than one building.
20 Q. When you say that the cannon was in that position more or less,
21 was it in the street or in a building or what?
22 A. I explained earlier. There was a part of the road that was cut
23 through next to the road. You could see it clearly in the binoculars.
24 The soldiers were billeted in the house just near the hill where it had
25 been cut through.
Page 15411
1 Q. Do you mean it was in a hole in the road?
2 A. I've already explained. As the road has been cut through in a
3 hill, the inside of the road next to the hill has been cut in so that you
4 put the cannon there. You understand?
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd like the witness to be shown now a
7 CD photograph which is P3279 E. And perhaps the witness's monitor could
8 be put on computer evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, computer evidence.
10 MR. IERACE: In a moment you will see on your screen --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please give it to the -- I take it that it
12 will be steered by your case manager.
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, it will, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. IERACE:
16 Q. In a moment you will see on your screen a photograph which we will
17 be able to move sideways. Accept from me, because it is not in dispute,
18 that the photograph you're about to see was taken from the point which
19 appears on the map marked 23. Do you understand? Do you understand what
20 I've just said to you?
21 A. No, that's not the place.
22 Q. That's not the place. All right.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now we're about to move the photograph sideways 360 degrees. I
25 want you to look at the photograph, and if you see where the cannon was,
Page 15412
1 please tell me immediately and we will stop moving the photograph.
2 All right, please stop the photograph. I think we've just done
3 360 degrees.
4 A. From this place, you cannot see it.
5 Q. All right. Can you recognise what appears in the photograph at
6 the moment? And for the benefit of the transcript, we're looking down the
7 road, that is, the road appears to be on a slope. We're looking
8 downwards.
9 Do you recognise the view which appears in the photograph?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. And do you see in the background a row -- a number of
12 houses at the end of the road, commencing at the end of the road?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you see in front of those houses a road which runs across
15 the picture, appears to be an intersection?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recognise that to be Ante Babica Street?
18 A. If that's what it's called here. But in any case, that's what the
19 street which continues from Ante Babica on, and continues on to Dobrinja,
20 takes us to Dobrinja.
21 Q. All right. Will you now please turn to the map alongside you.
22 And perhaps we could have the map on the video evidence. Thank you.
23 Do you see Ante Babica Street to the left of number 23? If you
24 do, please point to it.
25 A. Yes, I can see it.
Page 15413
1 Q. Thank you. Now yesterday, as I understood your evidence, you said
2 that between Ante Babica Street and moving towards the two confrontation
3 lines or green lines to the left, there were houses, and they were
4 completely destroyed during the war. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. And just at the beginning of the war, they were on our side,
6 and later on it was held by the Muslim army. So Ante Babica Street was
7 not a confrontation line.
8 Q. Do you see the two lines -- I don't know how they appear to you
9 with colour blindness. Are you able to accurately identify the colour
10 green?
11 A. One seems to be darker to me, and the other one lighter.
12 Q. Yes. The darker line, does that show the forward positions of the
13 Bosnian Serb army during the war? Perhaps you can point to the darker
14 line, as you see it.
15 A. [Indicates]
16 Q. Yes. Just there. Please stop your pointer.
17 In that area -- please bring it further down the line.
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the portion of the darker line
21 immediately to the right of Nedzarici, slightly below and slightly above.
22 Q. Does that accurately reflect the forward positions of the Bosnian
23 Serb army, let's say, in 1993?
24 A. Approximately yes, but the map is not precise. It's not a correct
25 map. It's not a proper map.
Page 15414
1 Q. In relation to the confrontation lines or the forward positions of
2 the Bosnian Serb army, is it correct in that part, the part you've just
3 had your pointer?
4 A. In this part, we had no soldiers. Nobody had any soldiers there.
5 It's just an ordinary meadow. It was just an empty space that we were
6 very afraid of all the time.
7 Q. All right. As you move further to the left, that is, towards the
8 institute of theology, where do you say are the first houses?
9 A. Next to the primary school.
10 Q. All right.
11 MR. IERACE: Now, the witness indicates a point where the side of
12 the triangle, that's the red triangle indicating the cone of fire,
13 intersects a vertical line near a group of symbols indicating buildings
14 which is to the left of the name "Nedzarici" that appears on the map.
15 Q. I think you said that included a primary school. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, these black dots. That's the primary school.
17 Q. Do you see also some dots on the map to the right and slightly
18 lower of the primary school, just below and to the left of the "N" in
19 Nedzarici? And perhaps you could point to them.
20 I'll withdraw that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we're at a point to have a break. I'd
22 first like to ask the witness to be escorted out of the courtroom. We'll
23 have a break for 20 minutes approximately.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE:
Page 15415
1 Mr. Ierace, could you tell the Chamber, what other subjects, how
2 many, and what about you had in mind?
3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Subject to whether this witness
4 says he was in Nedzarici in December of 1992 and early January, I wish to
5 cross-examine him on the subject of their being widespread fire, shell
6 fire, and small-arms fire into the city on Christmas day, or eve, 25th of
7 December, and Serbian Orthodox Christmas day, 6th of January, as well as
8 New Year's Eve. You may recall evidence from other witnesses that that
9 happened. This witness says he had a tank in his company. Earlier
10 witnesses -- some earlier witnesses said they weren't there at that time
11 of year.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. That's one subject. What
13 else?
14 MR. IERACE: That's one subject. He was asked questions in chief
15 about a mosque.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IERACE: And that's now in the Defence case an issue. I wish
18 to ask him some questions about mosques. Clarify what a mountain cannon
19 is. I don't think that will take long. There are some questions I wish
20 to ask him in closed court which will only take a minute or two, whether
21 he knows certain people who have already given evidence in this trial, and
22 that has particular relevance because of the subject of tanks having
23 regard to what some witnesses have said about there being tanks or not
24 tanks in Nedzarici. And that's it, Mr. President. There's one other
25 topic which I may drop. Perhaps I could indicate whether I pursue that
Page 15416
1 one at the end of the break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As you might have noticed, the Chamber will
3 consider whether and how much time will still be granted to you. I also
4 pointed that the Chamber has great difficulties in keeping both parties
5 within the limits of their time, both while examining the witness and when
6 objecting against the questions of the other party.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just one other issue. I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, if you could do it in 30 seconds.
9 MR. IERACE: Very briefly, it's in relation to the evidence we're
10 hearing now about there being a field and now houses on the Serb side of
11 the confrontation line. I would be grateful if my learned colleagues
12 could indicate where [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it should be redacted which is not something
25 that is already now for the outside world. Madam Registrar, would you
Page 15417
1 please prepare the redaction. I'll give you some guidance once we enter
2 into the break.
3 Am I correct in my understanding that next week we start with the
4 videolink testimony?
5 MR. IERACE: On Tuesday. I think it's Tuesday.
6 JUDGE ORIE: On Tuesday. So we still have Monday available. Yes.
7 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm just making
9 a note that I was promised two minutes before the break. I was promised
10 and given to Mr. Ierace. Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake. I promised you two minutes. So
12 we'll not adjourn, but you'll first have two minutes.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed,
15 Mr. President. There is a very serious problem which is happening which
16 is the following: When I intervene for translation purposes, and I
17 believe we can all agree on the point that I am only do this when it is
18 essential so that everyone can understand a specific example. If a
19 witness said at Nedzarici one tank, I have to intervene if Mr. Ierace is
20 asking questions about several tanks because then it gives a false
21 representation. And then when the witness says that the tank was never
22 stationed, and in the transcript it says the opposite, I have to
23 intervene. When I'm doing this, when I'm asked to prove it, we're wasting
24 a lot of time, but we're doing this for everyone. We do not want this to
25 be interpreted as being something that's done on our part to do this for
Page 15418
1 any diversionary purposes. It's not doing anything else. But we're
2 trying to save time. If these objections are taken out from our side,
3 although this is making the hearings actually shorter, I don't think this
4 is honest. This is not correct. It is not equitable.
5 The very last matter in relation to time: Yesterday, we saw that
6 the Prosecution took some 40 minutes. Today, there was not much time that
7 was taken. And we are already now at 20 minutes to 1.00. Therefore what
8 I wish to say, Mr. President, is that when we are asking to give our time
9 to the points which are general interest, and therefore we are doing this
10 for the general interest, it is not correct that -- it is not fair to
11 somehow add it to the Prosecution time so that the Prosecution uses this
12 for their own purposes and profit from it. This is the briefest way in
13 which I could express myself. Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We'll adjourn until
15 1.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I promised the parties some more guidance in respect
19 of some procedural matters. The Chamber rather prefers to continue at
20 this very moment. I'll just give you one point of what I'll say in a more
21 coherent way at the beginning of next week, that is that objections should
22 be limited to not more than two lines of transcript, and it is enough to
23 refer to what kind of objection it is. That is, relevance or question
24 asked, question answered, or hearsay. That's clear enough, and the
25 Chamber will then decide upon the objection, and of course will first see
Page 15419
1 whether there's any need in view of the testimony at this moment and any
2 objection as raised, whether there's any need to hear the other party on
3 it as well. The other party would not get more than two lines as well,
4 and then a decision will be given in order to avoid that any objection is
5 the beginning of a lengthy argument. Perhaps the parties could keep that
6 already in mind for the next 40 minutes.
7 Mr. Ierace, the Chamber has decided that you'll have another ten
8 minutes, not more certainly than 12 minutes to go. Please proceed.
9 MR. IERACE: May I start, Mr. President?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. Yesterday you told us there was a mosque in the aerodrome near the
13 airport neighbourhood. Do you see that area on the -- the position of the
14 mosque on the map in front of you, and if so, could you please point to
15 it.
16 A. I've already said that the map is not quite precise. But it is
17 more or less somewhere here.
18 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates a position on the map to the
19 left of the dark-green confrontation line.
20 Q. Perhaps you could put the pointer on the map again, please.
21 A. I apologise. It's here. And I said that these lines weren't very
22 precise.
23 Q. Yes. On the light-green line where it intersects a road which is
24 to the right, not necessarily the same name but if one follows the road to
25 the right, it's indicated as bulevar Branicaca Dobrinje Street. Were
Page 15420
1 there any or mosques in that area; do you remember? I take it there were
2 not.
3 A. No.
4 Q. And did that mosque suffer any -- I'll withdraw that. You told us
5 that it couldn't be seen from Nedzarici. Were there any other mosques --
6 any mosques that could be seen from anywhere in Nedzarici?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. Now, where were you on the 24th and 25th of December,
9 1992?
10 A. I was in Nedzarici.
11 Q. On -- at midnight on the 24th of December, 1992, that is,
12 Christmas eve, there was the sound weaponry being fired in large
13 quantities all around the perimeter of Sarajevo. Is that correct?
14 A. I don't know really. I don't know about that.
15 Q. Do you remember what you did on Christmas eve, 1992?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you sure you were in Nedzarici?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that that's what happened at midnight, and
20 that noise lasted for about 20 minutes, that is, until about 20 minutes
21 past midnight on Christmas day. What do you say to that?
22 A. I don't know about that piece of information.
23 Q. Is the 6th of January the date on the Serbian Orthodox calendar
24 for Christmas?
25 A. Yes.
Page 15421
1 Q. I suggest to you the same thing happened on Christmas eve,
2 according to the Serbian Orthodox rites, that is, at midnight on the 5th
3 of January, there was a similar barrage from positions of the Bosnian Serb
4 army around Sarajevo?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I did hear that Mr. Piletta-Zanin added one word
7 which was not translated. I did not invite you to speak so quickly that
8 the interpreters could not translate any more.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters have difficulties in understanding
11 your language, it seems.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, question of the
13 year.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's not clear. Could you please assist.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly. The Serbian booth
16 understood it correctly. I object because we're speaking about a
17 different year. We have to know whether it was 1992, 1993, or 1994. So
18 my objection, in less than two lines, was objection, the question concerns
19 the year. The issue concerns the year.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm certain it could have said in such a way
21 that everyone would have understood right away.
22 Mr. Ierace, would you please clarify.
23 MR. IERACE: Yes.
24 Q. I suggest to you that at midnight on the 5th of January, 1992,
25 that the same thing happened. There was a barrage coming from Bosnian
Page 15422
1 Serb army positions around Sarajevo of fire into the city that lasted some
2 20 minutes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it, Mr. Ierace, that you're mistaken and
4 that you are referring to the 5th of January, 1993?
5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes.
6 Q. What do you say to that?
7 A. I'm not familiar with that.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might we go into closed session.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into closed session.
11 [Closed session]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
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25 [redacted]
Page 15423
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Page 15429
1 [redacted]
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3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please make clear to the witness --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether it is a different building.
10 Yes, please proceed.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Witness, can you recognise the building in the photograph? Is
13 it one of the two buildings that corresponds to what we call the students'
14 city? Yes or no?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm that the upper part of this building
17 right above, the structure above, is it white or is it light colour?
18 A. Yes, at the top, yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much. The following question, Witness: Could you
20 now answer a question that is going to be purely hypothetical, purely
21 hypothetical. Let's imagine, let's imagine that the windows of one of
22 these buildings, it doesn't matter which one, and the inside walls
23 disappeared because of the war. And my question is as follows: Given the
24 angle of the -- of fire that is necessary in order to attain a point which
25 is on the other side of the Ante Babica Avenue, that concrete floors of
Page 15430
1 the building, would they have constituted an obstacle to a direct shot
2 from the Serbian positions, regardless of where these positions were?
3 MR. IERACE: I object. The question says it doesn't matter which
4 building; it does. The question doesn't differentiate between the floors.
5 There are clearly differences between the upper floors --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Question is unclear, I do understand. You're making
7 a lot of assumptions that could all influence the answer. Would you
8 please be more precise, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Q. Witness, let's imagine, let's take both buildings, and let's
11 imagine that there were no windows and no inside walls in either of the
12 buildings. It's a hypothesis. From the Serbian positions, could a shot,
13 a direct shot, if it were to hit a point on the other side of the Ante
14 Babica Avenue --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness has already -- I hesitate
17 to --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's put the question to the witness. I think --
19 please continue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object to the question. It's
21 difficult to do so in the presence of the witness but --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin is allowed to finish this question.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
25 Q. Going to continue. For both these buildings, Witness,
Page 15431
1 hypothetically, let's say there are no more windows and there are no more
2 inside walls. So far are you with me? Do you understand the hypothesis?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. In this hypothesis, and I'm going to ask you the
5 following question: From the Serb positions that you know, the presence
6 of the horizontal floors, would it have constituted an obstacle to a
7 direct shot? Yes or no. What I mean is to hit the Ante Babica Avenue
8 which is located behind these buildings?
9 A. Yes, it would have constituted a problem, yes.
10 Q. Very briefly, could you tell us why? Why would it have been a
11 problem very briefly?
12 A. Because we were in a far lower position, lower than these
13 buildings, subordinate to this building. So we practically only saw the
14 ceilings.
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that was a closed session
20 matter.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please make a redaction, Madam
22 Registrar. It's 92.15 until 18.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 [redacted]
Page 15432
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 Q. Thank you very much. Now, could we go back to the question that
4 we spoke of, the cannon. Do you remember 360-degree photograph? At the
5 moment, I don't have the time because I haven't been given enough time to
6 play this photograph again. But this cannon, was it stationed near - and
7 I mean near - to what was shown on this 360-degree photograph?
8 MR. IERACE: I object. Inappropriate question. Leading. The
9 evidence has given clear evidence about this, and this question does not
10 clarify any existing misunderstanding.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I do not agree that the answer is that clear. The
12 witness has testified you could not see the position of the tank. Could
13 you give us any other indication on where the tank was.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are not
15 talking about a tank. I'm sorry, we're talking about a cannon.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Cannon, yes. I made a mistake.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. I was going to answer.
18 The cannon was located -- what was filmed was at the bottom of the Mojmilo
19 hill, and the cannon was at the top. So it was at the end of the
20 regarding that we saw. It was at a much higher elevation than the
21 position on the recording.
22 JUDGE ORIE: This is approximately from where the picture was
23 taken?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 200, 250 metres approximately,
25 going up Mojmilo hill.
Page 15433
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Would you next time ask the witness in examination-in-chief what
3 the distance was, not whether it was near or not.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Following question, Witness: You said earlier that you did not
7 receive any outside assistance, outside aid in Nedzarici.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You meant as far as your company was concerned?
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again, there is nothing in the
11 cross-examination which requires clarification in relation to that part of
12 the evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what's the relevance, please.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that I
15 understood. You want me to say it in two words in response? Is that it?
16 I was listening to the Serb booth, so I didn't hear what you said.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, indeed,
19 Mr. President. It is important in respect --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about the importance. It is the
21 issue whether it was raised in cross-examination first, I think.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Yes, the
23 question of outside help was raised during cross-examination.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please put your question.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
Page 15434
1 Q. Could you please answer, Witness. Therefore, you said during
2 cross-examination that you did not receive any outside help. To which
3 company were you referring to?
4 A. I was thinking about the entire battalion in Nedzarici.
5 Q. Now, I'd like to continue, regarding the question Oslobodjenje.
6 You said during the cross-examination the way that this building had
7 fallen and why it had fallen. You used the words "alone, on its own, it
8 collapsed, alone, first wing and then another wing." You were ready to
9 make a drawing. We don't have time for a drawing. But could you please
10 explain to us how did this collapse happen exactly with precision, so that
11 we know, please.
12 A. Both parts that had collapsed were linked to the central part that
13 can be seen. So they didn't start from the ground. First the left wing
14 had fallen, and then three days later, right wing had fallen. The way
15 that -- the construction of the building worked, they were attached to the
16 central part. And only the central part had the base and the rest was
17 like hanging. For five floors, there was nothing, and then there were
18 these wings of the building began which later collapsed.
19 Q. Thank you. I'm just is going to come -- going to come back to the
20 question of assistance, and that will be my penultimate question. This
21 assistance, you spoke of help in a general way, or was this specific
22 assistance in weapons or anything else?
23 A. In principle, we didn't get any assistance in anything.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to ask you the very last question. It's
25 with respect to the cannon on the Mojmilo side that we spoke about. When
Page 15435
1 such a weapon is positioned, does it have a crew that's loading it? Yes
2 or no.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. As a general rule, according to normal army rules that
5 you know, this crew, do they have to stay in position near the piece, near
6 the weapon or on the weapon, on the piece?
7 A. Probably, yes.
8 Q. Thank you. How many people would have to constitute a crew for
9 such a weapon, such a piece?
10 A. Three men, I believe.
11 Q. Thank you. How were the supplies coming to the opposing side for
12 this piece?
13 A. I really don't know.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further
15 questions, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 Judge Nieto-Navia has a question for you.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 We would like you to have a look again on the map 1785. Now, you
21 can take a red pen and put a mark on the place where you saw a cannon. Do
22 you remember? You talk about the water reservoir. Just put an X or
23 something like that.
24 A. Reservoir.
25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Of the position of the cannon.
Page 15436
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I respectfully intervene to
2 point out that I think this is actually an exhibit of a Prosecution
3 witness rather than a copy of it. I don't know whether you want to place
4 the mark --
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The one that I have is D1785.
6 MR. IERACE: I apologise.
7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I don't know whether this is the one that I am
8 talking about, but this is a Defence exhibit, not a Prosecutor exhibit.
9 Am I right?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour. That's
11 right.
12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is just to put an X in the place
13 where the cannon was.
14 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I've already said that the map is very imprecise.
15 It was approximately here, where this point is. Perhaps a little further
16 up.
17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Just put an X there, and the letter "T," as in
18 Tom.
19 A. [Indicates]
20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has no questions for you. I have got
22 one question for you, and that is about sniping or snipers. It's not
23 quite clear to me, was it your testimony that there were no snipers at
24 your side, well let's say, in Nedzarici, that you are aware of?
25 A. Yes. I said there were no sniper weapons at all.
Page 15437
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No sniper weapons. But were there -- you said
2 a sniper weapon is with an optical sight on it, and you said a hunting
3 rifle could even be a sniping rifle. Was there any weapon with which you
4 would target at relatively long-distance persons?
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We heard testimony in this Court of a witness who was
7 on your side of the conflict that every company -- let me just find the
8 exact words. Yes. I'll quote his exact words. He said: "Each company
9 has to have a sniper." That was not --
10 A. No.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That was not true in the area where you ...
12 A. More or less, I knew the situation throughout the line in
13 Nedzarici. And my information is that there was absolutely no weapons
14 with optical sights, with scopes. No hunting rifles or any other rifles
15 with scopes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I did put the question to you, then, in a
17 different way. Apart from optical sights, was there any targeting of
18 persons at a relatively long distance even if it would be without a
19 telescopic sight?
20 A. It was with great difficulty that we were able to observe the
21 people. I said we were in a lower position. On several occasions, one
22 guard position was not just looking in front of itself, but the guard
23 position was looking at that first one because -- to prevent the injuring,
24 so that people wouldn't be hit through the hole that you were watching
25 through. For instance, people were observing by watching through the rear
Page 15438
1 mirror of a lorry so that you see what's happening behind you because if
2 they were to shoot, then you wouldn't be hit. So we were observing with a
3 system of, say, of mirrors.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's not quite clear to me. Could you please ...
5 A. Because all of our positions were only on the ground level.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 A. You know, only on the ground level. There were 10 or 15 cases
8 that a person would be injured through the place that he was looking
9 through, even if it's a very small hole. So later on, for instance, if I
10 was in a guard position, I would be looking at the space in front of
11 another person's guard position, and he was looking at the space in front
12 of me. We were not looking at places in front ourselves because that's
13 how we avoided from being hit. Or if you understand, with a rear mirror,
14 we would be looking in the mirror to see the back.
15 JUDGE ORIE: My question was about targeting persons at a
16 relatively long distance, and you are telling me about how you had to
17 protect yourself from being shot. Is that correct?
18 A. No. Yes and no. We were not able to see at a great distance from
19 Nedzarici. We would only open fire in case of being attacked.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my last question: The weapons you had,
21 what was approximately the killing range as far as you know? And then I'm
22 talking about rifles.
23 A. Automatic rifle, I really don't know what its killing range is.
24 What it can go up to. I don't know that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's of no use targeting targets that are outside the
Page 15439
1 range, is it?
2 A. Yes, but I think that you cannot see as much with the naked eye,
3 as much as a rifle can hit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: At what distance would you target, for example, a
5 person or a vehicle with the rifles you had?
6 A. I didn't understand the question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you choose a target, would you say if it's further
8 away than 50 metres I would not even try because there's no chance to hit
9 the target in such a way that it would cause the result I would like to
10 achieve? Or would you say not over 200 metres or not over -- I mean, what
11 was the distance you thought it of any use to target either persons or
12 objects with the weapon you had, weapons you had?
13 A. Considering my sight, it would be about 80 to 100 metres
14 because --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please finish your answer.
16 A. Because everyone who served in the Yugoslav People's Army, we had
17 exercises in targeting and shooting for 50 metres. That was the outer
18 limit, 50 metres. Before the war, that's what an ordinary soldier would
19 hit.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answers.
21 This concludes your testimony in this Court. I'd like to thank
22 you very much for coming to The Hague and to testify. You've answered a
23 lot of questions from both parties, and from the Bench. And I'd like to
24 thank you for that. And I wish you a safe trip home again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I just say
Page 15440
1 something.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just want to thank the Chamber for
4 allowing me to testify. And in order just to tell you how it was, every
5 morning, at every dawn, a new day of hell began for us.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware that living in the war
7 circumstances has been extremely difficult for many citizens of Sarajevo.
8 We adjourn until next Monday. I think we're still in this same
9 courtroom, Madam Registrar, on Monday. And we only on Tuesday start
10 the -- and I think we are sitting in the morning, I think, if I'm -- or do
11 I make a mistake? We're sitting at the time indicated on the court
12 calendar, next morning in this courtroom. I wish everyone a pleasant
13 weekend. We're adjourned.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of
17 November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
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