Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15441

 1                          Monday, 11 November 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

 6            Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

 8    Stanislav Galic.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10            Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

11            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, you are on your feet.

13            MR. IERACE:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  I am not sure whether

14    we have tendered the exhibits from the last witness.  In any event --

15            JUDGE ORIE:  No, we did not yet.  Yes, I agree with you.  Since we

16    changed Registrars again, I will ask the present Registrar whether she is

17    in a position to guide us, if not, we will do it after the first break.

18            Madam Registrar, has the...

19            If you would prefer to have some more time, we will do it after

20    the break.

21                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22            JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber would prefer to deal with it after the

23    first break, Mr. Ierace, since there has been a change of Registrars, as

24    you might have noticed.

25            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President.  One other -- a few other

Page 15442

 1    outstanding matters very quickly.  In relation to DP5, I could indicate

 2    very quickly the shortcomings in relation to rule 65 ter.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Would it be of any use to write them down.  As far as

 4    the Chamber is concerned, and also a consolidated list, so that we have

 5    not the same problem as we have with summaries, that you have to grab

 6    small parts and pieces from everywhere.  But perhaps it is good that you

 7    mention them very briefly, and then perhaps put them in a consolidated

 8    document that I hope will not be too long, but finally that we have all

 9    your 65 ter complaints together.  Yes.

10            MR. IERACE:  Yes, would you wish that I do that orally or just in

11    writing?

12            JUDGE ORIE:  If you would just do it very briefly orally and then

13    we will later see it on the list.

14            MR. IERACE:  In relation to DP5, we were not informed of the

15    company to which the witness belonged or the battalion or that the company

16    included a tank or where he was headquartered for the relevant periods, or

17    that he would give evidence as to the obtaining of weapons from the JNA

18    barracks, police buildings, and state companies.  All that he will give

19    evidence of the objective of mortar firing by the ABiH in relation to

20    sniper incident 23.  We were not forewarned that he would give evidence

21    that there were no buildings or even remains of buildings on the

22    Bosnian-Serb Army side of the relevant part of the confrontation lines or

23    that there was an artillery position near where the victim was shot or

24    that he would give evidence of places on the ABiH side where ammunitions

25    were manufactured or in relation to the digging of trenches on the ABiH

Page 15443

 1    side by persons of Serbian ethnicity.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since

 3    Mr. Ierace did not wish to express himself in writing -- no,

 4    Mr. President, since Mr. Ierace is wasting time, I am not going to waste

 5    time.  Everything is in a letter of 29th of October, 2002.  We spoke about

 6    the weapons.  We spoke about other weapons in possession of the ABiH Army.

 7    We spoke of the proximity and the confusion of buildings.  We spoke about

 8    contradictory character of certain documents.  We spoke of many things

 9    that resulted in the letter 29th of October, 2002.  It seems a little

10    strange that we are told that we had never informed them.

11            Now, if every time we have to give a statement within -- have to

12    give a statement extensive, then we can stop hearing the witnesses and we

13    can just work by email.  I don't think that is normal that the Prosecution

14    is complaining every single day, every single day they are complaining,

15    while the Defence is doing everything it can to --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I allowed the Prosecution, briefly

17    to indicate orally the points they said they missed.  You have pointed to

18    the sources where the Prosecution, in your view, might have found it.  For

19    this very moment, is that enough to deal with the issue?

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace.

22            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, again, as I foreshadowed, I indicate

23    that the most recent update to the 65 ter in relation to the next witness

24    is letter dated the 6th of November, 2002.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's your starting point.

Page 15444

 1                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  We can now deal with the exhibits.  Perhaps do it now

 3    rather than after the break.  Madam Registrar.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1784, under seal, pseudonym sheet;

 5    Exhibit D1785, map; Exhibit D348I, video; Exhibit P3759, photograph;

 6    Exhibit P3761, photograph marked by witness.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have

 9    objections that you know already in relation to these two photographs.  We

10    still have the same position.  We cannot take something by the means that

11    we have already told you about, so you know our objection.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  You also know that the Chamber has ruled on it, so

13    that objection was already denied.  Then D1784 is admitted under seal.

14    The other documents and videotape are admitted into evidence.

15            Mr. Usher, could you then please escort the witness into the

16    courtroom.  Yes -- the protective measures has been granted as requested;

17    that means pseudonym and facial distortion.

18            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, whilst the witness is being brought

19    in, we were informed yesterday of a new exhibit in relation to this

20    witness which is a simply a reference to the various sniping maps.

21    Perhaps we could be informed which particular sniping map the Prosecution

22    now seeks to tender.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please tell, Ms. Pilipovic?

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence said that

25    this was map 3274, but I informed the case manager, the Prosecution, that

Page 15445

 1    by this witness we will not introduce any evidence.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  No document, I take it.

 3            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5                          [The witness entered court]

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Can you hear me in a language -- may I ask you to

 7    stand up again.  Can you hear me in a language you understand?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Before giving testimony in this court, Witness, the

10    Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

11    that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

12    truth.  The text of this solemn declaration is handed out to you now by

13    the usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  The first page will just do.  That's the other

17    languages.  Please be seated.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Protective measures have been granted in respect of

20    you.  That means that no one outside of this courtroom can see your face,

21    and that we will call you by a pseudonym.  You will first be examined by

22    counsel for the Defence.

23            Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25                          WITNESS: WITNESS DP21

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Page 15447

 1                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                          Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

 3       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, considering that the Trial Chamber has

 4    approved protective measures for you, the Defence would like you to have a

 5    look at a document that you see before you.  Is the data correct that's in

 6    this document, correct?

 7       A.   Yes, it is.

 8       Q.   Thank you, sir.  Considering that the protective measures have

 9    been approved for you, as I have already told you, we will address you as

10    DP21.

11            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since we wish to get

12    some biographical data in respect of Witness DP21, the Defence would ask

13    for a closed session so that the witness can give us some other

14    biographical data in this respect.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  We will turn into private session.

16                          [Private session]

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23                          [Open session]

24            JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.  Please proceed,

25    Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 15449

 1            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2       Q.   Mr. DP21, when you told us where you were born and where you lived

 3    in 1992, could you tell us in relation to the centre of town what is the

 4    part of the town in terms of the north, south, west, east?

 5       A.   It is the eastern part.  It is going in the easterly direction

 6    from the Sarajevo.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. DP21, we will be speaking about the period from

 8    September 1992 until August of 1994.  Where were you in September 1992,

 9    although I wish to stress that you do not have to say the name of the

10    village where you were.

11       A.   I was in my village.  I can say it, but I didn't go anywhere.  In

12    1992 in September, I was in my own village.

13       Q.   In 1992 in your village, were there some incidents that occurred?

14       A.   Not in the village itself, but we did have some problems because

15    we lived next to Muslims, our neighbours were Muslims, and we had some

16    fear and discomfort because at the time we were afraid of some misfortune

17    occurring like in 1942 when villages were burned and children and

18    civilians killed and their throats cut.

19       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  But let us focus on the time of 1992.  When I

20    asked you if we -- if there were some incidents that occurred in your

21    village, and you said that you were in fear.  You, as a citizen, and

22    others citizens of your village, did you take any steps?

23       A.   We took some steps, in fact, in April, even.  So that was well

24    before September, in the local commune of Hresa consisting of five

25    villages.  In the evening, one evening, we met, we had a discussion to see

Page 15450

 1    what we can do because Serbs started leaving the downtown.  They were

 2    leaving with bags, with luggage, and what happened already, suffering for

 3    the Orthodox people, that is for the Serb started.  There was the

 4    Patriotic League that was starting to be active, and wherever Serbs went,

 5    were --

 6       Q.   Mr. DP21, could you please speak slowly and give me short

 7    answers.  So, what you are saying is that in April 1992 in your village,

 8    you were -- you organised yourselves at the local commune?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Can you tell us very briefly what were the steps that you took,

11    specifically.

12       A.   Specifically, I can say that we created a defence for the

13    villages, guard posts, where we stood guard to defend our villages so that

14    they wouldn't be burnt down again, as it happened in 1942.

15       Q.   Mr. DP21, when you say "our villages," you said that this is

16    easterly direction in relation to Sarajevo.  How many villages covered

17    your area?

18       A.   These were five villages in the local commune of Hresa.  And in

19    these villages lived Orthodox peoples, and that's how we decided to

20    protect our villages.

21       Q.   So that we can understand the situation very clearly, considering

22    that you lived in that part of Sarajevo, could you tell us if in the

23    vicinity of the villages where you lived, were there also villages

24    populated exclusively by Muslim population?

25       A.   Yes.  There were villages, for instance, Vasan Han there were also

Page 15451

 1    Serb houses there also Muslim houses.  And there was a threat for us from

 2    the city of Sarajevo because the Muslim started preparing certain bad

 3    things, so we had to be prepared.

 4       Q.   Mr. DP21, in September 1992, could you tell us how were you

 5    organised?

 6       A.   Well, let me tell you, in September 1992, this was our initiative,

 7    that's how we were organised without any other participation because we

 8    didn't have any leaders.  We organised ourselves for our villages.  These

 9    were like village guards, village patrols.  We created a position, a line

10    in front of the village, to protect the people inside so we would be there

11    on the meadows.

12       Q.   When you say that you established a line or a position, and that

13    you were on meadows in front of your houses, could you tell us:  Did you

14    have any kind of protection on these lines?

15       A.   Not to start with, but later on when our lines started to be

16    shelled and attacks were launched, then we started to fortify our

17    positions to dig ourselves in, to create trenches, because we were also

18    threatened by daily sniping from the Muslims because you could just be

19    hit.  So we had to dig ourselves in.

20       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. DP21, now that you have answered this Defence

21    question, can you tell us in relation to your lines, that is, in that

22    easterly part of Sarajevo you told us which villages these were.  Were

23    there positions in the proximity of your line, were there lines that were

24    established by other entities?

25       A.   Well, in front of us, ahead of us, there was a Muslim line which

Page 15452












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Page 15453

 1    was perhaps 150 metres away from us as the crow flies in that part, and

 2    they were on one side and we were on the other side.  That is, we were on

 3    the eastern side and they were towards the west they were facing -- they

 4    would turn towards the west in respect of our line.

 5       Q.   Mr. DP21, with respect to your line, can you tell us what weapons

 6    did you have, can you tell us that first?

 7       A.   You mean our line, my line?

 8       Q.   Yes.

 9       A.   To start with, we didn't have any weapons.  Some people would have

10    a hunting rifle, that's true.  Then somebody would just come along to

11    stand guard.  People had what they were able to get their hands on, so

12    that's how we managed to protect ourselves, just to be there to stop them

13    while the population would be able to leave, so just to avoid them being

14    killed again.  That is what the -- that was the agreement, that was what

15    we agreed to do.

16       Q.   Later on, you said you didn't start with any weapons or get any

17    weapons.  Did you get better weapons later?

18       A.   Yes, we did get better weapons later.  When we got to it line, we

19    realised we were under risk, we realised we were under threat and we had

20    to arm ourselves.

21       Q.   Can you tell us how did you do that?  How did you get more

22    weapons?

23       A.   Well, let me tell you, we were fortunate, although it is perhaps

24    not a good word to use, but there were some warehouses in Faletici where

25    the army had been.

Page 15454

 1       Q.   When you say that there was a warehouse of the Territorial Defence

 2    in Faletici where the army had been, do you have any knowledge under whose

 3    control --

 4            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, the question doesn't reflect the

 5    evidence as it is in English just as the Territorial Defence.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You told us about warehouses that you were

 7    fortunate enough to have, and you said fortunate is not perhaps the right

 8    word.  Can you tell us those warehouses, they belong to whom?  What was

 9    your answer?  What did you say as your first answer to that question,

10    following you are words that "fortunate might not be the right word."

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, naturally it is not the right

12    word, since you are talking about victims, about people being killed.  It

13    is not civilized to have such things, but it is better to defend yourself

14    than to be dead.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  But my question is:  What was then your first

16    answer?  You said "fortunately we had warehouses," belonging to whom?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those warehouses belonged to the

18    Territorial Defence of the town of Sarajevo.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Was that your first answer right away, or do you now

20    add?  Because in your first answer as we read it, was that it belonged to

21    the army, and then Ms. Pilipovic asked you about warehouses belonging to

22    the Territorial Defence, at least, that is what we read in the English

23    transcript.  In your first answer, did you mention the Territorial Defence

24    or did you just mention the army?  We can check it later, if necessary,

25    but if you know, please tell us.

Page 15455

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Feel free to check it, but these

 2    warehouses belonged to the Territorial Defence.  That is known, and it is

 3    marked on the maps, because in those warehouses, the city of Sarajevo had

 4    these warehouses at its disposal.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand what you now tell me.  But in you

 6    first answer, did you say warehouses belonging to the army, or did you

 7    already in your first answer say that they belonged to the Territorial

 8    Defence?

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those Territorial Defence

10    warehouses.  I think I have been clear, and that is clearly marked.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.  Perhaps we should

12    check during the first break because that gives always the best

13    information, because the witness, of course, is not fully aware perhaps of

14    what the issue is.  Please proceed for the time being and perhaps we come

15    back to it at a later stage.

16            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17       Q.   Mr. DP21, you told us that you took weapons from the Territorial

18    Defence warehouse in Faletici?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Were there any other people from your villages in that territory

21    who took weapons from that warehouse?

22       A.   Yes, I know that we armed ourselves by taking weapons from that

23    warehouse because we had been informed that Muslims, our neighbours, also

24    entered that warehouse, they were the first ones to enter the warehouse

25    and to take weapons out.  So then we followed and we went to take weapons

Page 15456

 1    for ourselves, too.

 2       Q.   To clarify everything, could you tell us with regard to the

 3    warehouses that you have mentioned and in which there were weapons, who

 4    guarded them and who controlled them before you and members of the Muslim

 5    population went there?

 6       A.   During the time of the former Yugoslavia, the Territorial Defence

 7    guarded these warehouses.  I don't know who was there.  I had never

 8    entered them before.  The first time I entered the warehouses was when we

 9    went to take the -- when we went to take the weapons.  All I know is that

10    the Territorial Defence was there.

11       Q.   But within those warehouses, do you know whether the JNA had its

12    premises there?

13       A.   I don't know.  I don't know what sort of information there was

14    because at the time I really wasn't familiar with these formations.  But I

15    know that it said "TO," Territorial Defence, on the cases.

16       Q.   Can you tell us when that was?

17       A.   Well, we entered about 1992.  I think it was in May or towards the

18    end of April.  I can't provide you with the exact dates, with the exact

19    day, but that was the period, roughly speaking.  And I have a piece of

20    evidence.  It's been proved that they had entered before that because the

21    Zijo Lovcic who had a light machine-gun who had been issued to him, his

22    number was lower than Marko's number.  So a Muslim and a Serb had obtained

23    weapons from the same case.

24       Q.   Mr. DP21, when you say that you entered the warehouse, and I am

25    referring to you in particular, and you said your other members of your

Page 15457

 1    nation, when you said that you went to the warehouse, what sort of weapons

 2    did you take from there?

 3       A.   We took automatic rifles and semi-automatic rifles.  We took

 4    infantry weapons from the warehouse.

 5       Q.   Mr. DP21, you told us that you had organised yourselves and that

 6    you armed yourselves.  Can you tell us in terms of what sort of formations

 7    you made, you composed?  I am referring to the inhabitants from the

 8    village in which you lived.

 9       A.   Well, we formed the defence for the village at the time when we

10    armed ourselves, we protected village to prevent an escalation from

11    occurring, to prevent rape and slaughter from occurring.

12       Q.   I apologise.  But can you tell us how many of you were there who

13    were military fit who formed that defence?

14       A.   Well, about 70 men formed this defence group.  But there were

15    elderly people there too, between 55 and 60 years of age, and even people

16    who were 65 years old.  We didn't have enough young people, perhaps, 14

17    younger men, perhaps 40.

18       Q.   When you say that there were about 70 of you, did you have a

19    particular name, how did you identify yourselves?

20       A.   Well, we did this together and we protected the area together.  We

21    were there when the Republika Srpska Army was formed.  And later on, we

22    joined as a company.

23       Q.   So it is safe to say that you organised as a company.  In that

24    area where the front lines of your company were located, was there a wider

25    military formation that you belonged to?

Page 15458












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Page 15459

 1       A.   Later on, we were part of the 7th Battalion; that was after the

 2    Army of Republika Srpska had been formed.  First they accepted the

 3    companies and then a battalion was formed.  So then it was one army, just

 4    one whole.

 5       Q.   In that area where your company was located, in order to clarify

 6    matters, could you tell us where the line of your company was?

 7       A.   Well, I can tell you that my company's line was from Borije to

 8    Moscanica, to the stream, to the Moscanica stream, down there, that's

 9    where our line was, called Emerovice and Zecja Glava?

10       Q.   Since you have told us where the line of your company was, could

11    you tell us, given that you have told us that you belonged to the 4th

12    battalion --

13       A.   The Hresanski batallion, the 4th battalion -- I don't know what

14    the name was exactly, because it would change.  I think at the beginning

15    it was the 4th battalion and then later, the name changed.  So I don't

16    know exactly.

17       Q.   Do you have any personal knowledge with regard to the number of

18    companies there were in the battalion, let's say that we are speaking

19    about the Hresanski battalion?

20       A.   As far as I know, we had five companies in the Hresanski

21    battalion.

22       Q.   Mr. DP21, do you have any personal knowledge of the zone of

23    responsibility of the Hresanski battalion, where was it?

24       A.   Well the zone of responsibility of the Hresanski batallion went

25    from Borija and Zecja Glava, where my company was to Donje Bijesko to

Page 15460

 1    Barice and as far as Mrkojevici.

 2       Q.   You told us that in your company you were armed with automatic

 3    rifles?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Can you tell us whether during the period from September 1992 to

 6    August 1994, can you tell us whether you had any other weapons?

 7       A.   No, apart from the fact that we had two mortars, 60-millimetre

 8    mortars, which belonged to the company, and that was all the weapons we

 9    had.  We had the 60-millimetre mortars.

10       Q.   During the period referred to, could you tell us whether there was

11    any fighting in the zone of your company?

12       A.   There was fighting on a daily basis on the zone of our company.

13    Almost every day there was fighting there, because they were trying to get

14    in to our villages and we wouldn't allow them to do so.

15       Q.   When you say that there was fighting almost on a daily basis, have

16    I understood you correctly?

17       A.   Yes, almost every day.

18       Q.   Can you tell us, do you personally know, what weapons the BH Army

19    used?

20       A.   They used all sorts of weapons, rifles, sniper rifles, rocket

21    launchers, even tanks.  They fired at the line on two occasions, but they

22    used launchers all the time, and shells fell on our line.

23       Q.   Mr. DP21, now that you have answered this question, can you tell

24    us what the positions of your company were.  From the positions of your

25    company, did you have a view of the so-called urban part of the town?

Page 15461

 1       A.   You can't see the town very well from my positions.  You can see

 2    Hadi Brdo where I was, because it was in a sort of gorge, not exactly a

 3    gorge, but you couldn't really see it.  You could see part of Hadi Brdo

 4    and part of Siste so-called shooting site where shooting was practiced.

 5       Q.   When you say that you could see Hadi Brdo, and Siste, the shooting

 6    site, yes, can you tell us the positions of Hadi Brdo and Streliste?

 7    Whose positions were these?  Which army was there?

 8       A.   The Muslim army was there.  They were at those positions.  Hadi

 9    Brdo was theirs, it was a Muslim village.  The line was in front of that

10    village, and below Donje Bijesko, there was a Serbian line.

11       Q.   When you tell us that you could see positions Hadi Brdo and

12    Streliste from the position of your company, could you tell us how

13    Hresanska and Streliste located with regard to the city?

14       A.   Well, it is a good position because they can see the city.  They

15    can see the city from down there, so the position must be good.  I don't

16    know exactly.

17       Q.   In order to be precise, when you say that the positions were good

18    and that the city could be seen, could you tell us which part of the city

19    was closest to Hladivode and Streliste?

20       A.   Well, Sedrenik, the upper part of village towards Sedrenik, that

21    was the part closest to Stelici.  And Hladivode is closer to Vasan Han and

22    to those areas there.

23       Q.   Mr. DP21, with regard to your company, can you -- and with regard

24    to the battalion, can you tell us who the commander of the battalion in

25    Hresa was?

Page 15462

 1       A.   Well, this wasn't a secret.  Milan Pakalovic was the battalion

 2    commander.

 3       Q.   Do you have any personal knowledge about whether he was a

 4    professional military man or was he an inhabitant?

 5       A.   He was from Donje Bijesko.  He wasn't a professional military man.

 6      He had some influence and he reached a certain position.

 7       Q.   With regard to your company, can you tell us were there any

 8    professional soldiers in your company, and when I say "professional

 9    soldiers," I am referring to members of the former JNA?

10       A.   No, we didn't have such men.  We were inhabitants from those

11    villages, and we didn't have any professional men.

12       Q.   Do you know whether there were any such men in the battalion?

13       A.   No, I don't know about the battalion.  There weren't any such men

14    in the battalion as far as I know.  But to tell you the truth, I never

15    asked who was an active duty member and who wasn't.

16       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. DP21, do you know where the command post was, the

17    Hresa battalion command post?

18       A.   Well, it was in Hresa in Misinovic's house, that's where the

19    command post was located.  And the people from the surrounding villages,

20    we moved them out, we moved them away from the line in case of a

21    breakthrough.  We wanted to make sure that the people would not be killed.

22       Q.   When you say that you moved the people away from the line, could

23    you be a little bit specific?  Where did you move them away from?

24       A.   Well, let's say behind the line, all the people who lived behind

25    the line, we would send up to Hresa, to the centre where there was no

Page 15463

 1    shelling, there was no shooting.  So the woman and children, we would send

 2    them up there.  Sometimes someone would come to visit their relatives, but

 3    we moved certain people away.  Tadic, we moved this person away, et

 4    cetera --

 5       Q.   I apologise.  Don't mention too many names.

 6            When you say you "moved them away," can you tell us who inhabited

 7    in those houses, the houses from which people had been moved away?

 8       A.   Well, Serbs, they were there.  We moved them away because of the

 9    action.  Because when the shelling started, when the Muslims started

10    shelling, then shells started falling on their houses --

11       Q.   Mr. DP21, I think you have answered that question.  I wanted you

12    to tell us whether those houses from which people had been moved out, did

13    anyone use those houses while the conflict was raging?

14       A.   Well, no one used them because they couldn't be used.  It was

15    dangerous to live there, so the army didn't allow anyone to live there.

16    Sometimes when they said there would be a strike, we would be in those

17    houses.

18       Q.   Mr. DP21, in the area of your company and of your battalion too,

19    from September 1992 until August 1994, can you tell us whether any

20    buildings had been damaged, any buildings that were in the area of your

21    company?

22       A.   Do you mean behind the line?

23       Q.   I mean in general in the area of your company.

24       A.   Well, yes, there was damage.  For example, when there was an

25    exchange of fire, when the Muslims started firing on us, for example, a

Page 15464












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Page 15465

 1    bullet would hit a house, sometimes a shell would fly over us, and it

 2    would explode in the village.  Around those houses, behind us, the damage

 3    wasn't extensive, but there was damage to facades.

 4       Q.   Mr. DP21, I think that you have told us that with regard to the

 5    zone of your company, the Muslims fired from tanks?

 6       A.   Yes, they did fire from Streliste.  I saw them with my own eyes.

 7    They fired two shells in the direction of my line.  I saw that with my own

 8    eyes.  That was about 1993.

 9       Q.   Mr. DP21, when you spoke about your company, you mentioned the

10    weapons, the positions, and the length of the line of your company; but

11    can you tell us:  Were the members of your company, did they have

12    uniforms?

13       A.   No, we didn't have uniforms.  Some people were wearing civilian

14    clothes.  Some people were in the reserve police force and they would wear

15    their uniforms, but mostly the members of the company wore civilian

16    clothing.

17       Q.   During the conflict, can you tell us whether you as a member of

18    the company that you called Hresanska company, can you tell us whether

19    your company had a different name later on?

20       A.   No, it was also called the Hresanska company of the Hresanska

21    battalion.  It didn't have any other name; that was the only one.

22       Q.   Can you tell us whether you as a member of the Hresanska company

23    received orders?

24       A.   Well, we received orders from our command, that is to say from the

25    battalion.

Page 15466

 1       Q.   Can you tell us what sort of orders did you receive from the

 2    battalion command?

 3       A.   Well, we received orders not to fire.  We were ordered only to

 4    return fire when they started firing at us.  If they advanced on us, we

 5    were told to defend ourselves, et cetera.

 6       Q.   Can you tell us how often such orders were issued?

 7       A.   Well, occasionally because quite often men would be killed or

 8    wounded, then new men would arrive.  And we received those orders, but we

 9    also had a permanent order, according to which we had to respect the

10    Geneva Conventions.  And we were told that we shouldn't fire on civilians

11    and we were told how to behave if we captured people, although this never

12    happened, but often we were given these orders verbally.

13       Q.   You as a member of the Hresanska company, could you tell us, when

14    these orders were issued, where were they issued?

15       A.   Well, they were issued over the phone or verbally at the line,

16    directly at the line.  We would be ordered not to do this or that, et

17    cetera.

18       Q.   When you say "verbally" or "over the phone," what did you want to

19    tell us with regard to the telephone?  Could you clarify the issue of the

20    telephone?

21       A.   Well, there was a line between us and the command.  For example,

22    there was a telephone in the command; it would ring.  And then they would

23    be told what the situation was, if someone was shot they would be told why

24    there was shooting.  No one could shoot whenever they wanted to shoot, so

25    there was certain control and it was necessary to save ammunition and so

Page 15467

 1    on.

 2       Q.   Mr. DP21, you told us that you also had two mortars in your

 3    company?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   I think you said 60-millimetre mortars?

 6       A.   Yes, that's right.

 7       Q.   Did you use those mortars?

 8       A.   Well, yes, we did.  We defended ourselves with those mortars.

 9    When our line was attacked, then naturally, the mortars would be used in

10    order to defend ourselves.

11       Q.   How often were these so-called defensive attacks, how often did

12    they take place?

13       A.   Well, sometimes these defensive attacks would take place every

14    day, sometimes every other day.  There was shooting all the time.  There

15    were attacks all the time.

16       Q.   Mr. DP21, with regard to your company's line, and let's say the

17    line of your battalion too, what sort of lines of communication did you

18    have to the command?  What brigade was it?

19       A.   Well, I think it was the 1st Romanija brigade.

20       Q.   Do you know where the command post of your brigade was located?

21       A.   No, I don't know, because it wasn't necessary for me to know

22    this.  I never went there.  I was mostly on the line.

23       Q.   In relation to your villages and other villages too, could you

24    tell us whether there was a road there, a route there that was important

25    for you as inhabitants of those villages?

Page 15468

 1       A.   I don't know which road.  I don't understand.

 2       Q.   To be more specific, how could you communicate during the

 3    conflict?

 4       A.   Well, we came from Hresa towards Sarajevo to Zecja Glava, if

 5    that's what you mean to say.  If you want to say which road we -- which

 6    route we used to defend that place.

 7       Q.   How were you linked up to other municipalities and were there any

 8    links?

 9       A.   Yes, we had links to Sokolac municipality and Sumbalac [phoen] and

10    we were linked to Pale through Sumbalac [phoen].  That was -- our rear was

11    a free zone, there was no shooting there.

12       Q.   Mr. DP21, when you told us that your buildings at the front line

13    had been damaged, could you be more specific and tell us what caused the

14    damage to these buildings?

15       A.   The damage was caused by bullets and by shells fired at us because

16    they probably weren't very precise when they fired.  There were houses

17    behind us, and they would be hit by shells and damage would be inflicted,

18    naturally.

19       Q.   Mr. DP21, you told us that you dug trenches at your line?

20       A.   Yes, we did.

21       Q.   Do you personally know how front lines of the BH Army were formed

22    with regard to the line of your company?

23       A.   Well, the BH Army lines, I don't know how they were formed.  But

24    they were in front of us and they formed a line.  They probably had

25    offices there.  I don't know how it worked.

Page 15469

 1       Q.   Do you know whether the front lines of the BH Army, do you know

 2    whether there were trenches there too?

 3       A.   Yes, there were trenches.  They would dig trenches in front of us

 4    and interconnecting trenches, just as we did.

 5       Q.   With regard to the front line of your company, can you tell us how

 6    far the demarcation line was between you?

 7       A.   Well, 150 metres as the crow flies, at some places, and other

 8    places, 2 to 300 metres as the crow flies.  Because it depended on the

 9    layout of the terrain.  It wasn't regular.

10            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just confer

11    with my co-counsel.

12                          [Defence counsel confer]

13            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my co-counsel will

14    ask a few questions and then we would finish our examination-in-chief.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17                          Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

18       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

19       A.   Good morning.

20       Q.   The questions that I wish to ask you are the following:  When the

21    shells landed you spoke to us about these shells that landed, did they

22    leave any traces on the soil, and if yes, which ones?  What were they

23    like?

24       A.   These shells did leave traces on the soil where they would become

25    activated.  They would leave craters.  There would be soil dispersed if

Page 15470












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Page 15471

 1    they would fall on the soil.  But, of course, if they would fall on the

 2    asphalt, then there wouldn't be so much damage, because it couldn't

 3    inflict such damage, it couldn't disperse so much.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  You spoke to us about asphalt areas.  Could you tell

 5    us what are the diametres of the shells that were used against you, if you

 6    know, as far as you know, to your knowledge?

 7       A.   Well, according to the remains that were fired on them, so a

 8    tail-fin would be left.  The body -- the body of a shell has a tail-fin

 9    which directed -- I don't quite know what the right term is.  But it's

10    like a mortar which propels it.  A mortar that propels it.  So this was

11    like 82 millimetre, 60 millimetres, so these were three different types of

12    mortar shells that were fired.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe,

14    again, that I heard --

15            JUDGE ORIE:  The French transcript which, if I am not mistaken,

16    mentioned 120 millimetres as well.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not only that, but

18    particularly in Serbian, what the witness said, he spoke of the 120

19    millimetres as the weapons, and it is not in the transcript,

20    Mr. President.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask the French translators whether I did

22    understand you well whether you mentioned 120?  Yes.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I continue?

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 15472

 1       Q.   Witness, you mentioned to start with a 120-millimetre shell, and

 2    could you tell us whether you were able to observe, yes or no, crater

 3    traces of 120-millimetre shells in the area that you knew?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.  I saw craters in the area.  I saw that on many

 5    occasions.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  When you saw these craters of 120-millimetre shells on

 7    the asphalt, I am speaking only about the asphalt craters, would you be

 8    able to describe them to the Chamber?  Could you tell us, what did they

 9    look like?

10       A.   Well, yes, I could.  The shell would hit in a spot and a part of

11    the asphalt would be damaged and then there would be some kind of a hole,

12    about 55 centimetres.  If it was a bigger shell, if it was 82, then it

13    would be slightly smaller, then 60 would be even smaller because the

14    charge would be lighter, so the crater wouldn't be so great.

15       Q.   When you speak of a hole, could you describe this hole.  What did

16    it look like?  Is it deep?  It is a shallow hole?  What can you tell us

17    about it, according to what you have seen about the craters of

18    120-millimetre calibre shells?

19       A.   120-millimetre shells on the asphalt, it would be a hard terrain,

20    so the depth would be 20, 25 centimetres, and of course, on a meadow it

21    would be deeper, of course, because more soil would be lifted.

22       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, in these 120-millimetre calibre shells, shell

23    attacks, when they hit what's left is the tail-fin that you have

24    described.  According to your experience, where did they land?

25            MR. IERACE:  I object, not only to leading, but as it transpired

Page 15473

 1    of making a statement and moving on to a question on this issue which is

 2    not included in our 65 ter summary.  Thank you.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first question

 4    is not leading, because what I am asking, where is the tail-fin going to

 5    end up, which is not leading.  Now, if you read our letter of the 29th, it

 6    says that we will speak about the weapons, how they were used, and I

 7    believe that all the questions in relation to the weapons are admissible.

 8    We cannot be more precise than what we have already been precise, so that

 9    we can defend General Galic, of course.

10                          [Trial Chamber confers]

11            JUDGE ORIE:  The first part of the objection is denied.  The

12    second part, whether this should have been in the summary, the Chamber

13    will discuss this in due course and give further guidance on that issue.

14            Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Very well.

16       Q.   Witness, according to your experience of combat, fighting, that

17    you had, what could you tell the Chamber about what happened as a general

18    rule with 120-millimetre tail-fin when the shell hit a part of an asphalt

19    area?

20       A.   It would fall off and it would jump off some 2 or 3 metres away

21    from the crater, it will probably be found.  And that is also a good way

22    to find out what kind of shell -- what the calibre was.

23       Q.   Is it in your professional experience that you have had on the

24    front line, is it how it always happened?

25       A.   As far as I know, yes, it always happened.

Page 15474

 1       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, now I'd like you to ask you another question.

 2    Have you ever heard of the existence of a plan of your that would have

 3    been structured in such a way to have the objective to eradicate,

 4    eliminate, all Muslim population of Sarajevo, yes or no?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Thank you very much.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.  Thank

 8    you.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, I think I should start asking you whether

10    you are ready to start cross-examining the witness?

11            MR. IERACE:  No, Mr. President, I am not.  One of the difficulties

12    that I have is that the 65 ter summary indicated that the witness would

13    indicate the positions of which he would give evidence on a map, and

14    indeed the Defence, as I've indicated, has told us that they intended to

15    use the map.  And thus having elicited from the witness names of a number

16    of places, the Defence then sits down not having required the witness to

17    mark the map.  Mr. President, in my respectful submission, that should be

18    done by the Defence so that the Prosecution can better be informed of what

19    the evidence is and then respond.

20            Mr. President, if you do not require the Defence to do that in

21    their time, then I will need an adjournment so I can make the relevant

22    enquiries as to precisely where a number of the places are that the

23    witness has mentioned.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we thought it

Page 15475

 1    was useful in order to preserve everyone's means, we thought it would be a

 2    good idea to proceed in this way.  We had a meeting with the victims and

 3    witness unit in order to preserve the chronology indicated.  We thought

 4    that in order to avoid a waste of time because we all have -- we all know

 5    how to read a map, and the witness told us about names, locations, told us

 6    about a stream.  It would be easier to find the names, the location on the

 7    map.  If we are asked to waste time, we will do it.  But, of course,

 8    otherwise, the witness just has to stay longer in The Hague.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic.

10            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence prepared

11    the map, and I also gave it to -- also gave it to the case manager.  It is

12    P3274.  But considering the second witness who is on the same line, so the

13    Defence didn't want to take double time to do two maps for the same front

14    line.  If the Chamber believes it is useful, we will ask the witness to

15    look at the map and we can resolve that problem, too.

16                          [Trial Chamber confers]

17            JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has considered the matter.

18    Ms. Pilipovic, the Chamber would also, for its own orientation, very much

19    appreciate if you would show the map to the witness.  And the Chamber is,

20    of course -- fully agrees that it is of no use to present repetitious

21    evidence in this respect.  But if there are two witnesses, and if one of

22    them will indicate the front line positions, then it is more comfortable,

23    at least for us, to hear it from the first witness so that we don't have

24    to guess too much.  So if you would please introduce that map.  And as

25    said, we are not asking for repetitious evidence, we are just asking to do

Page 15476












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Page 15477

 1    it now rather than in the near future.

 2            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I just like number --

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.

 4    But General Galic tells me that the second witness is a professional

 5    soldier, and that he would be a lot more at ease with the maps.  We will

 6    do this now with the map, but this does not mean that we will renounce to

 7    use the map with the second witness.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  I am not saying that.  Let's just see where we are.

 9            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And also, Your Honour, if the

10    Registry could give me the following number.  Is it 1788?  Is it D1788 or

11    should we just --

12            THE REGISTRAR:  D1787.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  I can't imagine, Ms. Pilipovic, that you do not in

14    too much detail, but at least we have a global orientation of where we

15    are.  Perhaps leave the details for the professional.

16            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

17       Q.   Mr. DP21, on your right-hand side there is a map or a part of a

18    map.  I would just like to ask you not to mark this in.  If you can just

19    indicate locations with the pointer please.

20       A.   I will show you the location where this Hresa company was in front

21    of Zecja Glava.  I will show it to you here.  Well, I can see this -- a

22    lot more is even on the screen.  Here you have Emerovice, and here this is

23    a high power line which went here.  These were the pylons and somewhere

24    here -- somewhere here was my line.

25            Two, there is the stream and from that where the stream is, it

Page 15478

 1    would go all the way to Borija.  That is where my company held.  Now, the

 2    other lines I wouldn't be able to show you properly because I am not fully

 3    trained for this and I didn't go and look at the lines.  But I know that

 4    this line up to here, above Emerovice and there is Hresa here.  You can

 5    see exactly that is where I was on the line.  And you have here some

 6    houses.  This is Topalovic and again you see the Tadic houses.

 7       Q.   Mr. DP21, could you please take a black fine liner and mark on the

 8    map the area of responsibility of your company, please.

 9       A.   Can I have the black pen, please.  Can I use this one?

10            JUDGE ORIE:  No, we use different colours for the parties who is

11    asking you to mark.  So it should be the one given to you by the -- it

12    should be a black one.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I respect that.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I just thought that it

16    would be easier, but you can give me whichever colour you want.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  We will then use a black ballpoint for the time being

18    and certainly we will ...

19            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   Mr. DP21, as the area of responsibility of your company, you've

21    marked the positions above the village called Emerovice?

22       A.   Emerovice, yes.

23       Q.   You have marked the positions of your company.  Could you mark the

24    positions of the BH Army in relation to yours.

25       A.   Yes, I can.  From what I have seen, it is approximately here.  I

Page 15479

 1    will do it with a dotted line like this, like this, and here there is an

 2    elevation point.  It is an elevation.  It could be about here.  So it is

 3    from there that they use sniper fire very often.  So this was the line in

 4    front of us, that was located there.

 5       Q.   Mr. DP21, can you tell us what was the length of the front line of

 6    your company?

 7       A.   I really didn't measure.  I don't know exactly what the length

 8    was, but I know that it was in this area, perhaps a kilometre and a half,

 9    approximately.  It is probably not more than that.  That is 1.500 metres

10    from there.  You can see this part we covered, as much as I am able to

11    see.  And here there is the stream, so it would go up to the stream.  This

12    road here was not under our control.

13       Q.   You told us about Zecja Glava?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Can you see it on the map here?

16       A.   Yes, Novi Rad [phoen], Emerovice, it doesn't say here, but Zecja

17    Glava is here, its houses are here.  If you want me to indicate them, I

18    can mark them.  These are the houses here on Zecja Glava; that's what it

19    is.  These are the locations.  We call it Zecja Glava, but it is really

20    not written as much on the map.  Emerovice was below, and then near Vasin

21    Han was the Barabana [phoen], so these are the directions.  And above

22    Zecja Glava and Gromova [phoen] above from the left above is Faletici and

23    so on.

24       Q.   Mr. DP21, this line, this communication line that goes below

25    Amerivica, Aluge, and Bronobay [phoen], can you tell us, what is this

Page 15480

 1    marked?

 2       A.   These are meadows.  These are fields.  And this is the road which

 3    goes above.  This is the main road and below it you have meadows in Aluge

 4    and Bronobay [phoen] Oru Movi.  These are meadows, grazing fields.

 5       Q.   And you say main road which one is it?

 6       A.   This is the main road leading to Hersa that Aluge and Bronobai.

 7    You can this is Hresa, and here you can see 1.150 metres, and it goes to

 8    Zemunica.  So that was what we had with the Sokalac.

 9       Q.   Mr. DP21, thank you.

10       A.   You are welcome

11            JUDGE ORIE:  This would be a suitable time then for the break.  We

12    will adjourn until 11.00.

13                          --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to start to

16    cross-examine the witness?

17            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Usher, would you then please escort the

19    witness into the courtroom.

20            Mr. Piletta-Zanin, yes.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very briefly,

22    and in a couple of words, since you were to provide some information with

23    regard to 65 ter, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that in

24    November 2002, very not long ago, we mentioned a lot of details about the

25    tanks of the enemy, the means used, the mortars, et cetera, et cetera, and

Page 15481

 1    we provided Mr. Ierace with this information.  So we tried to specify all

 2    of these items.  There were also elements that we decided not to mention

 3    simply to save time.  Thank you.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] more detail.

 5            Mr. DP21, you will now be further examined by counsel for the

 6    Prosecution.

 7            Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

 8            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                          Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

10       Q.   Sir, were you the commander of your company?

11       A.   Yes, I was the commander of my company.

12       Q.   You told us earlier this morning about your observations of

13    tail-fins and craters created by mortars fired at you of the calibre of

14    120 millimetres.  How often were such mortars fired at you, that is, 120

15    millimetres?

16       A.   Well, you can't assess that it's just 120-millimetre shells,

17    because if you go and check to see what the calibre is, someone could die.

18    They shelled very soften.  Sometimes the shells were 120-millimetre shells

19    sometimes 82-millimetre shells and sometimes 60-millimetre shells.  If you

20    have a look to see where a shell fell, if you analyse how well it was

21    directed or not, well, then you could see that.  But I didn't go to

22    examine this every time.

23       Q.   Are you saying that it is difficult to say how many of these

24    craters were created by 120-millimetre shells as opposed to 82-millimetre

25    shells or 60-millimetre shells?

Page 15482












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Page 15483

 1       A.   Yes.  There was a lot of shooting, a lot of shelling.  They

 2    shelled on several occasions, on many occasions.  I didn't count the

 3    number of occasions.  I wasn't interested in that.  I was interested in

 4    getting out, saving my life, and the lives of the inhabitants who were on

 5    the line, and I was interested in taking shelter, et cetera.

 6       Q.   You also told us this morning that your company obtained automatic

 7    and semi-automatic rifles from the warehouse at Faletici.  When did you do

 8    that?

 9       A.   We didn't receive that, but as civilians in the local commune, we

10    had a meeting just before the war broke out, so to speak, that is to say

11    on the 2nd of April.  And we would tear our hair out wondering what to

12    do.  We were endangered, and as I had worked in the village for 20

13    years --

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.  The

15    general rule is to let the witness continue when he is speaking about

16    matters that could be of interest.

17            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, the --

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Just reread the question and -- yes, you gave a lot

19    of information.  But the question was:  When did you obtain automatic and

20    semi-automatic rifles from the warehouse in Faletici?  So at what time?

21            Please proceed.  Or could you please answer the question.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer the question.  That was

23    in May.  We went spontaneously as the inhabitants of the Hresa local

24    commune.  These were people who were defending their village.  They went

25    to take a rifle and return to their positions because we thought it was

Page 15484

 1    going to be dangerous.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Just to give you some guidance, whether you did it

 3    spontaneously or whether it was dangerous or not, if Mr. Ierace is

 4    interested to hear that, he will certainly ask you.  He first asked you

 5    when and your answered that question.  Please proceed.

 6            MR. IERACE:

 7       Q.   When you arrived at the warehouse, was anyone guarding it?

 8       A.   There were no guards at the warehouse.  There were a net of sort

 9    of protective fence but it had broken down and you could get through and

10    enter.

11       Q.   How do you know that the opposing forces had been there before

12    you?

13       A.   Well, I know that because of the piece of evidence that I

14    mentioned this morning, the Zijo Lovcic had a machine-gun and a number of

15    which was lower than that of Marko Cavarkapa.  The numbers of from 1 to

16    10, 10 to 20 and the number of the weapons in the cases.  So both weapons

17    were taken from the same case.

18       Q.   So you are saying that because a combatant on the other side had a

19    machine-gun with a particular number, you were able to deduce that it came

20    from Faletici and that it had been obtained from there earlier than

21    yours.  Is that correct?

22       A.   That's correct.

23       Q.   I suggest to you that it is not believable that the opposing

24    forces, if they had gone to the warehouse first, would have taken arms and

25    left other arms behind for your forces to come and collect them.

Page 15485

 1       A.   I say that they entered just like we did.  We didn't take all the

 2    weapons, but everyone took a few weapons, two or three weapons.  They did

 3    the same, perhaps.  Because it is one people, you could say, in terms of

 4    their ideas.

 5       Q.   I further suggest to you that what in fact happened was as the

 6    time of hostilities approached, the JNA moved the contents of the

 7    warehouse to ensure that Bosniak forces could not obtain them.  Do you

 8    know anything about that?

 9       A.   Well, as far as I know, they didn't transfer them.  They left a

10    lot of weapons for the Bosniak people, such as the Marshal Tito Barracks

11    or the command in Bistrik, the headquarters of the JNA, and for example,

12    the Viktor Bubanj place.  All the weapons remained down there because if

13    they hadn't remained there, where would they have obtained weapons from?

14    They weren't in a position to produce them.

15       Q.   Did the ABiH control part of the Faletici area until about July

16    1992?

17       A.   Yes, in front of the gate, the BH Army held that part, and

18    naturally the conditions were more favourable for them to enter.

19       Q.   You drew on a map the part of the confrontation line that the

20    company you commanded held.  What was the name of the company that held

21    the line immediately north of your section?

22       A.   North of our section, the name of the company was -- are you

23    referring to the Serbian positions?  I haven't understood you.  They

24    were -- I apologize.  Could you repeat that, please?

25       Q.   Yes, the Serbian company, the Serbian part of the -- the Bosnian

Page 15486

 1    Serbian part of the front line?

 2       A.   The name of the Serbian company was Bijustanska company.  Because

 3    above them was Donje Bijesko, and these people were people from those

 4    villages.

 5       Q.   The only weaponry other than rifles that you have mentioned that

 6    the Bosnian Serb forces had in your area were two 60-millimetre mortars.

 7    Was there artillery in the area of Hresa?

 8       A.   It was in the Hresa area, the artillery was there, that is to say

 9    in the Borije area, that's the name.  I don't know what the name is

10    exactly, but there was artillery in Borije.

11       Q.   And how far is that from Hresa?

12       A.   Borije is about 2 and a half kilometers from Hresa.  I can't tell

13    you what the exact distance, but I think that that's the distance.  I

14    didn't measure it, so I can't say exactly.

15       Q.   Did that artillery give you support from time to time?

16       A.   Yes, they did give us support when dangerous attacks were launched

17    against us, because the Muslim formation was far stronger than the

18    formation in which I was.  So this is why we had to ask for artillery

19    support.

20       Q.   Did you also have support in the form of 120-millimetre mortars

21    from areas outside your company?

22       A.   Well, let me tell you, the artillery did its job up there.  They

23    made their own assessments, whether they needed to use 120-millimetre

24    shells, et cetera.  But I am not informed about that.  But there was

25    artillery support, but I don't know exactly what they used.

Page 15487

 1       Q.   When they used artillery or large-calibre mortars, did your

 2    company fulfill the function of observers for them to ensure accuracy?

 3       A.   We couldn't carry out reconnaissance to see what they were firing

 4    from because we were in a lower position with regard to the Muslims who

 5    were in Orlovac above us.  So it wasn't possible for us to leave the

 6    trenches, the dugouts, because we would have been hit and we would had

 7    been killed.

 8            MR. IERACE:  Nothing further, Mr. President.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

10            Yes.  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any need to --

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to confer with my

12    colleague.  Perhaps there is one issue.  Yes, just one matter.

13                          Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, at line 38.8 you mentioned the fact that

15    the BH Army was more or less at the gates, that is how you put it.  I am

16    talking about Faletici.  How were you able to get into those warehouses if

17    the enemy was present?  What can you tell us about this incursion that you

18    carried out, about this entry into the premises of the Territorial

19    Defence.  That is my first question; there will be a second one

20    afterwards.

21       A.   Well, let me tell you, they were at the entrance, at the gate of

22    the Territorial Defence warehouse.  We were on the other side.  We entered

23    through the fence that had been broken down because the diametre was about

24    a kilometre and a half.  So we entered from the opposite side.  We got in

25    and naturally we hid to make sure that they wouldn't hit us, and then we

Page 15488












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Page 15489

 1    took what we needed.

 2       Q.   Was fire opened at that point in time?

 3       A.   No.  When we were leaving, fire was opened, but then it subsided.

 4    We got out, there weren't any wounded people, no one was killed, nothing.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, a minute ago you were asked about the alleged

 6    transfer of former JNA weapons, and you said that the cases had the

 7    inscription TO, that is to say, Territorial Defence.  And my question is

 8    as follows:  Did all the cases of weapons that you saw bear this

 9    inscription, the TO inscription on them?

10            MR. IERACE:  Perhaps my learned colleague --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, one minute.

12            MR. IERACE:  -- could refer me to the line where that was said.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry?

14            JUDGE ORIE:  The TO, inscription, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, has been

15    mentioned.  But --

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can do so, but I think the

17    witness stated this very clearly, as far as I can remember.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  If you have the line available, it certainly would

19    assist.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't have it available, but

21    I will have a look for it.  We will find it under Defence, I think.  It is

22    on page 14, Mr. President.  It is the line 14 in my transcript [In

23    English] Territorial Defence.

24            MR. IERACE:  Well, Mr. President, in that case, it is a matter

25    which arose in examination-in-chief, not in cross-examination, as to the

Page 15490

 1    issue.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, not

 3    exactly, Mr. President.  During the cross-examination Mr. Ierace mentioned

 4    the hypothesis, according to which the army allegedly transferred

 5    everything from the warehouse to prevent it from falling into Muslim

 6    hands, the hands of the Muslim forces.  This is a new issue.  And what I

 7    wanted to know, is in all of these cases, since the witness mentioned

 8    them, naturally during the cross-examination, but given Mr. Ierace's

 9    question, I wanted to know whether all these cases bore the inscription

10    TO, Territorial Defence.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  The answer of the witness where he says that there

12    were cases where a TO inscription, that was not specifically sought by the

13    question.  It was a spontaneous extra to what the question was to the

14    witness.

15            Mr. Ierace, you paid specific attention especially to obtaining

16    weapons and, therefore, the Defence is allowed to ask specific

17    questions -- to go in more detail where it did not specifically seek this

18    information in an earlier stage, but in a very global scale.

19            Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21       Q.   Witness, I would appreciate it if you could answer the question

22    that I have just put to you.  To the best of your knowledge, when you

23    entered these warehouses, with regard to the weapons, the cases of weapons

24    and the TO inscription that you mentioned, that is to say the Territorial

25    Defence inscription, did all the cases that you saw in the warehouse bear

Page 15491

 1    this inscription?

 2       A.   Well, the ones that I saw, the cases that I saw, did have these

 3    inscriptions.  TO was inscribed on all of them.  There were numbers there

 4    and there was a big case, perhaps 130 centimetres long and 40 centimetres

 5    wide.  And on the cover, on the lid it said "TO," and on the side of the

 6    cases you could also see the TO inscription.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.  Thank

 8    you.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions to you.

10                          Questioned by the Court:

11            JUDGE EL MAHDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12            [Interpretation] I would like you to tell me, please, whether you

13    know when you started digging the trenches, and if you do know, when did

14    the enemy start digging their own trenches?  Can you remember who

15    started?  Did you start?  Did the enemy start?  Do you know the date,

16    roughly speaking.

17       A.   We started digging trenches towards the end of 1992 and 1993, and

18    in 1993 we were mostly in trenches and we were prepared.  As soon as the

19    artillery shooting a bit, that was in 1992, there was some loud explosion

20    that was behind me, near Mocra Moguste [phoen].  These shells started

21    falling, and we automatically began to dig in because we were in danger of

22    being killed.  After that, they started digging in front of our -- below

23    our positions, and that's how both sides formed trenches.

24            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.  And if I have understood

25    you correctly, it was around the end of 1992 and at the beginning of 1993?

Page 15492

 1       A.   Yes.

 2            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And my second

 3    question, if possible:  Could you tell me how you could distinguish mortar

 4    shell calibres?  Was it easy for you, your company was composed of

 5    volunteers, people who weren't professionals, was it easy for you to

 6    distinguish between 60-millimetre, 82-millimetre, and 120-millimetre

 7    calibre.  What could you tell us with regard to this?

 8       A.   Well, I could tell you at the beginning it was difficult to

 9    distinguish it calibres, because we didn't understand this.  But with

10    experience and as the war advanced, I could tell the difference between

11    60-millimetre, 82-millimetre, and 120-millimetre shells.  I could even

12    recognise a tank shell, because the misfortune that we experienced taught

13    us about these matters.

14            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.  But in your company you

15    only had 60-millimetre mortars, so you didn't have 120-millimetre mortars

16    yourselves?  You hadn't seen 120-millimetre shell?

17       A.   No I hadn't seen a 120-millimetre shell because we didn't have

18    such shells.  We had two 60-millimetre mortars, and the man who helped us,

19    he wasn't very qualified in that area.  This is just something to use to

20    help ourselves because we didn't have 120-millimetre shells.  We didn't

21    have such mortars.

22            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So with regard to the

23    two 60-millimetre mortars that you had, you said that you and

24    professionals and the men, individuals, who used these mortars, could they

25    distinguish targets, distinguish -- could they recognise the zone that

Page 15493












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Page 15494

 1    they wanted to attack?  Could they recognise targets?  How did they act,

 2    how did they proceed?

 3       A.   Well they carried out that task.  We knew where the enemy line

 4    was, and they would assess the distance between the lines, roughly, and

 5    that's how we would defend ourselves.  You could see for 150 metres, 200

 6    metres with the naked eye, you could see the line where they had dug in,

 7    you could see the land where they had dug out, and that's where the shell

 8    would fall.

 9            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, because you said that the

10    enemy side was in an -- was on elevated terrain.  So was it possible to

11    see them from your positions?  Was there a view from your positions?  And

12    did you only attack the trenches that you could see or did you attack the

13    rear of the enemy side?

14       A.   We never attacked anyone.  We were just defending ourselves from

15    evil.  We didn't even see any civilians because they were behind.  You

16    couldn't see behind the hill.  You could see where the line was and this

17    is where we were.

18            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But, your mortars, the ones that

19    you had, where did your mortar shells fall?  Was it necessarily on the

20    lines or sometimes -- did they sometimes fall behind the lines?  Because

21    you changed the positions of the mortars, didn't you?

22       A.   We didn't change the positions of the mortars.  They remained at

23    their positions, and they were used very seldom.  Only when intense

24    attacks were launched, in order to repel the enemy attack, we would use

25    the mortars.  If the infantry couldn't resist the attacks since the

Page 15495

 1    attacks were of very large scale and we were afraid because there weren't

 2    enough of us for that formation.  They had very strong formations, very

 3    strong units, as you can see now.  This was shown on the television.  At

 4    the time, we didn't know.  But on the basis of the fire they used, we were

 5    able to see that they had many men, many soldiers, many Muslim soldiers.

 6            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, my very last question,

 7    please, is in relation to the damage that you were able to see for

 8    yourself, damage done by shells that came from the enemy side on your

 9    positions.  Was the soil, was it asphalt?  Was it soil?  Was it hard soil?

10    What type of soil was it where the shells landed?

11       A.   There were several types of terrain.  There was the asphalt road

12    in which the shells landed.  Then there were fields.  And there was also a

13    part of the grazing meadow where also shells landed.

14            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  I've got a few questions for you as well.

16            I, again, would like to come back to where your shells would

17    fall.  You indicated where the front lines were.  Were ever shells fired

18    from your side that went beyond the front lines and go into the rear of

19    the enemy positions?

20       A.   Well, I can tell you that personally I never fired a shell because

21    I wouldn't know how to do it.  We didn't shell any civilian targets

22    because we didn't have enough shells.  We would only preserve the

23    ammunition to have it for terrible situations to defend ourselves.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  I am not asking about civilian targets.  I am just

25    asking on whether shells were fired also beyond what you knew to be the

Page 15496

 1    confrontation lines.

 2       A.   Well, I am not sure whether they would fall behind or in front

 3    because obviously I couldn't see, I couldn't observe.  Combat zone, there

 4    is shooting.  Who would watch where the shells were landing?  There were

 5    some targets that we have marked of the lines and most probably it fell on

 6    the lines.  Possibly, one or two may have gone over the line.  Perhaps it

 7    was a higher more concentrated charge.  So it would go over the line.  So

 8    you wouldn't know exactly where they would fall.  We would have lines that

 9    were marked; there was a scheme.  It is possible that the air current as

10    such would carry them further.  Of course, there are experts who would

11    know how to do it, and this is not my area of expertise, so I can't really

12    answer these questions.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  You never involved yourself in firing mortars?

14       A.   No.  No.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever fire a mortar in your life, I mean,

16    apart from this conflict?

17       A.   No.  My very first time was to see infantry weapons because by

18    establishment standards, I was always in the rear.  In the JNA, I was in

19    the kitchens.  I liked to eat well, so that is where I always wanted to

20    be.  In the rear, in the kitchen.  Perhaps it is funny, but that is where

21    I was.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand.  You said in the beginning you

23    had difficulty in knowing what was a 120-millimetre shell and what was a

24    60-millimetre, an 82-millimetre, but slowly you -- when your experience

25    grew, you were able to tell.  Could you tell us exactly on the basis of

Page 15497

 1    what, what kind of experience was it that you would be better able to

 2    identify the calibre of the shell in the later stages?

 3       A.   Well, let me tell you, this happened during experience.  It

 4    happened when the shells arrived, then you would hear a hiss.  It would be

 5    stronger, more intense.  A hiss would be stronger.  But sometimes I would

 6    be wrong.  I would think that it was 120, and it turned out that it was

 7    82.  It really depended whether it would land on the asphalt, it would be

 8    a stronger impact, and a more intense echo.  But it would feel on a field,

 9    then it would be less.  So you would think that that was smaller shell,

10    smaller calibre shell, but then we would know, according to our terrain,

11    you would know where it would fall, and then you would know which one it

12    was.  Sometimes you would be wrong, but that's how we did it.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  So I do understand that on the basis of sound and on

14    the basis of the size of the impact, you assessed the calibre of the

15    shell.  Is that correct?

16       A.   Yes -- no.  We would assess it according to the firing.  But if

17    you listen to the shell, it has a hiss.  If you hear that and you are not

18    in the shelter, then the person would hear it without being in the

19    shelter, that person would be dismembered.  Perhaps he would survive, but

20    it didn't happen very often.  But if you hear the hiss, the whisper, so to

21    speak, that means it would land near you.  You would be up in the air and

22    that's why we had the dugouts, the shelter.  So if you would hear, you

23    would have to run and hide.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  That is what I call "sound."

25            Yes.  You say sometimes you might be wrong.  How did you know or

Page 15498

 1    is it just that you thought you were wrong or did you ever verify on

 2    whether your assessment was correct or not?  In order to know that your

 3    assessment is wrong, you should know what is right.  How did you find out?

 4       A.   Well, once the fighting would be over, I would go along the line

 5    and see where the shells landed and each shell has this propeller, the

 6    tail-fin, and then I would see, according to the tail-fin, I would know

 7    whether it is 120, the tail-fin is larger.  And if it is a 60, it is

 8    smaller, so you know that.  And then on the tail-fin, you also have a sign

 9    of the calibre.  So according to the leftover, the remnant of the

10    material, we would see which one it was.  So after an attack, after the

11    fighting and when there was a lull, then you would see whether anyone was

12    wounded, whether anybody was killed, where the shells landed, would

13    analyse the error of my line, whether they needed to dig ourselves

14    further.  It was important, otherwise if we made a mistake, our lives

15    would be lost.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever find a tail-fin embedded in the asphalt?

17       A.   No.  That cannot be embedded.  Only if you took a hammer and dig

18    it in.  Because once it falls, the tail-fin goes off, the whole terrain is

19    razed as much as it was destroyed, and the only thing you have left is a

20    crater.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay this answers my questions.  This -- yes,

22    Mr. Ierace and Mr. Piletta-Zanin, both.

23            Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.  The

25    questions that I need to ask are in relation to the sound and to what your

Page 15499












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Page 15500

 1    Chamber raised in relation to the sound.

 2                          Further re-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

 3       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, first question, according to your

 4    knowledge of fighting that you had, is it possible to hear a shell during

 5    its flight, that is, a mortar shell?  It is possible to hear it while it

 6    is flying, yes or no?

 7            MR. IERACE:  I object, Mr. President.  The witness has already

 8    given evidence about that, quite clearly.

 9                          [Trial Chamber confers]

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

11            MR. IERACE:  Well, perhaps the objection should be in the absence

12    of the witness, Mr. President.

13                          [Trial Chamber confers]

14            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I would ask to -- for the opportunity

15    to say something in the absence of the witness.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to clarify one thing.

17            You told us about the hiss -- I would say more or less the hissing

18    sound -- yes, Mr. Ierace.

19            MR. IERACE:  I apologise, Mr. President.  I would seek to address

20    the Trial Chamber in the absence of the witness on a different issue.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if it is a different issue.  Mr. Usher, would

22    you please escort the witness out of the courtroom.  There is another

23    issue that we have to discuss, so if you would have the patience and leave

24    the courtroom with the usher.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I hope it is not very long

Page 15501

 1    because I am longing to go home.  Thank you.

 2                          [The witness stands down]

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace.

 4            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Mr. President, while you

 5    and Your Honors were conferring, Madam Pilipovic spoke, I could not hear

 6    the words.  If they were caught by tape, I would like to know what they

 7    were.  If I could hear them, the witness could hear them.  I think I know

 8    what one of the words was, but I would be grateful if it was caught by

 9    tape so that we can hear what they were.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are now here

12    not in an adult court, but in the court of the school.  I practically

13    didn't hear what Ms. Pilipovic wanted to say to me.  You are closer to

14    Mr. Ierace.  Did you hear anything, you, Mr. President, who had one ear

15    free?

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, what is it what you said so that we

17    can get a first impression of whether it could have -- yes.

18            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I didn't

19    say anything to my colleague.  I just turned myself because I was called

20    by the General, and I think I said something like "it's not that" or

21    something like that.  I can't quite remember at this moment.  I certainly

22    didn't say anything in relation to what the witness could hear or

23    register.  I have no objection to have -- to listen to the tape.  The tape

24    is listened to.  But I think that's what I said, something to the General,

25    I believe, something like very quietly, it was something in relation to

Page 15502

 1    whether the Witness had answered the question or something to do with the

 2    sound.  But as far as I remember, I didn't actually say anything.  Thank

 3    you.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that you think you said something like

 5    "it's not that."  If a witness -- if a question is put to a witness, and I

 6    think we discussed this issue before, that the line like

 7    "it's not that" let's just assume that you said something like that, could

 8    be -- it could be totally inappropriate.  I ordered the Defence before not

 9    to speak at a volume that could be heard -- I do not say "was heard" but

10    "could be heard" by the witness anything at all.

11            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that we were

12    only commenting on whether the witness has answered that question or not.

13    At this very moment, I really cannot rewind and I have no objection to it

14    being listened to.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Why will see whether it is necessary to further

16    investigate.  But commenting or using a line such as you indicated you

17    might have spoken, are not allowed.  It is not the first time that I have

18    to draw the attention of the Defence to that.  If you want to confer, I

19    would say just as the Judges do, if you ever overheard what we said, I

20    would like to know, but we are usually able to speak to each other in a

21    way that you could not hear it, and that is how it should be.  Yes.

22            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Absolutely.  I

23    am aware of that, but the only thing I can say is that it is almost

24    impossible to have -- in communication for us to be absolutely cautious.

25    I am trying not to communicate too loudly, but there are certain moments

Page 15503

 1    when things just get out of control.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you should keep it under control.

 3            Mr. Ierace, what you think you heard, would that coincide with the

 4    information the Chamber just received?

 5            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I heard "no, no" followed by --

 6    "na, na," I should say followed by some other words.  At that stage,

 7    Mr. Piletta-Zanin then may a physical gesture indicating to my

 8    interpretation for Ms. Pilipovic to keep her voice down.  It came in the

 9    context of the question asked to the witness requiring specifically a "yes

10    or no" answer.  Whatever the --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you whether this what just has been said by

12    the Defence finds confirmation in what you think you noticed.  I think the

13    matter has been dealt with now, and I would say that it should not happen

14    again.  That's the only thing that I would like to say.  Yes.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to slight

16    things, perhaps, even one thing:  Sometimes we hear what you say, however,

17    the courtesy -- but you have to know for the future, sometimes your

18    microphone is on and --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...matter had been

20    dealt with sufficiently, that means that we could now continue --

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into

23    the courtroom again.

24                          [The witness entered court]

25            JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to verify because we were stuck on an

Page 15504

 1    objection, more or less, and you've got one second --

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  You told us in one of your earlier answers: "If you

 4    listen to the shell, it has a hiss," that's how I understood your

 5    testimony.  What is that hiss?  Is that the sound when it flies or is it

 6    something else?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hiss you can hear when the shell

 8    approaches you.  At that time, it goes "Shhh," and unless the very same

 9    second you don't throw yourself into the shelter, 10, 20 metres around

10    you, the shell has landed, and particularly if it is a 120-millimetre

11    metre, it is a catastrophe.  As soon as you hear the shell going "Shhh,"

12    you have to go into the shelter, because that means it is arriving.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  It is the sound of the shell arriving in the air to

14    its target, is that what it is?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  The question has been answered, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.  I

17    just wanted clarification of what the exact answer was in order to avoid

18    any misunderstanding.

19            Please proceed.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21       Q.   The second question in relation to this that I was going to ask at

22    a different moment at the flight of the mortar shell, before it arrives at

23    the target, can you hear anything, yes or no?

24            MR. IERACE:  I object, Mr. President.  Leading in the extreme and

25    not -- ineffectively revisits the issue which you just clarified.

Page 15505












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Page 15506












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Page 15507

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I don't think it is exactly the same.  The

 2    question now is:  If a mortar shell would not specifically approach you,

 3    but perhaps fly from I don't know where to I don't know where, could you

 4    then hear it?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.  At that time you don't

 6    hear anything, you don't see anything.  When it approaches you, then it

 7    has a hiss.  Because that's when it is about to land and you can hear the

 8    tail-fins hissing, going around, but somewhere up in the space, in the

 9    air, you cannot hear it because it is too far away.  How could you hear it

10    then?

11            JUDGE ORIE:  You said you can't hear it; you can't see it.  Is

12    that correct?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that case, it cannot be seen, it

14    cannot be heard.  It would be like asking me, can you see a mosquito at

15    300 metres, of course you cannot.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  How do you know that?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have seen it hundreds of times.

18    It is the experience.  If I would see a shell, we would have to

19    immediately go.  If you -- if you would be -- if you were able to see a

20    shell approaching and arriving and hearing it, then nobody would ever be

21    killed because you could hear it and see it approaching.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you just told us that you couldn't see and

23    you couldn't hear a shell if it was flying over.  So would it not be

24    difficult to establish that?  Because if you do not hear or do not see

25    anything, there are two possibilities:  One, that there is a shell flying

Page 15508

 1    over, but you can't hear it and you can't see it; second possibility is

 2    that there was no shell flying over you.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you:  When a shell

 4    is fired, it doesn't arc in the air and it goes down.  This arc that it's

 5    up there in the air, you cannot see it because it a far too high.  It

 6    cannot be seen.  It cannot be heard because it a very far away.  But when

 7    it's coming down to the target approaching you, "Shhh," then that's when

 8    it explodes.  So where you are when you hear the shell hissing, unless you

 9    are already in the shelter or you are throwing yourself into the shelter,

10    then it will explode and that's it.  So whoever heard the shell and

11    wasn't -- didn't move immediately, very few have survived that.

12            I think that's quite logical.  I don't know whether you have had

13    any contacts with the army.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for your answer.

15            Mr. Piletta-Zanin, any other issue?

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, just to clarify things.

17       Q.   Witness, you tell us about this whistling sound, this hiss that

18    the mortar shell does at the moment when it is going to hit the target.

19    Does this rule apply to all the categories, that is the ones that your

20    have mentioned, the 60, the 82 and the 120?

21       A.   Yes, for all of them.  Because when it approaches the land, you

22    can hear it.  But some of them that is heavier, it will be sooner, but

23    sometimes if it is a smaller calibre, then it will be later.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.  No further

25    questions.

Page 15509

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, just in order to avoid to tell the

 2    witness that this concludes his evidence, any questions from you as well?

 3            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Ierace:

 5       Q.   Earlier, you told us that the hissing sound was a way for you to

 6    tell if it was a 120-millimetre shell or not.  Is the noise louder --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is not quite what the

 9    testimony of the witness is.  I object, Mr. President.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, would you --

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

12    continues]...didn't say --

13            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...please requote the

14    part you are referring to.

15            MR. IERACE:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

16       Q.   You were asked a question by the President, you were asked: "Could

17    you tell us exactly on the basis of what, what kind of experience was it,

18    that you would be better able to identify the calibre of the shell in the

19    later stages?"

20            You said:  "Well, let me tell you, this happened during

21    experience.  It happened when the shells arrived that you would hear a

22    hit.  It would be stronger, more intense.  A hiss would be stronger."

23            And later -- that will do, I think.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I know

25    where the quote comes from.  Mr. Ierace hasn't provided us with a

Page 15510

 1    reference.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Page 47 line 20.

 3            MR. IERACE:

 4       Q.   Now, the hiss you told us --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please -- yes, please proceed.

 6            MR. IERACE:

 7       Q.   You told us that the hiss assisted you to tell if it was

 8    120-millimetre shell, rather than a shell of a different size.  What was

 9    it about the hiss that enabled you to identify the shell coming in as

10    being 120 millimetres?  Was it louder or did it have a different type of

11    sound?

12       A.   Please, listen to what I am saying.  I worked in a printing

13    company.  I am very familiar with words.  If I say that there was an

14    intense hiss that a 120-millimetre shell made a louder hiss, that means it

15    was of a larger calibre.  It the sound wasn't as loud, that means it was

16    an 82 or a 60 millimetre one.  I am telling you on the basis of my

17    personal experience.  This is what I heard and what I observed.  So don't

18    maltreat me too much, because if I am here and if I am talking to you, I

19    am telling the truth didn't come to deceive anyone.  A shell which is

20    approaching its target --

21            JUDGE ORIE:  All the parties -- would you please look to me.  All

22    the parties are going to put questions to you.  There is no question of

23    deceiving anyone, but sometimes we want even to know more details about

24    what you told us, and that's what Mr. Ierace is asking you.

25            Has the question been answered, Mr. Ierace?

Page 15511

 1            MR. IERACE:  It certainly has, Mr. President --

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  One moment, please.  Yes.

 3            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, in the remaining issue is how we

 4    capture in the transcript the sound that the witness has described.  It is

 5    not a constant sound.  There is a quaver in it or a quiver in it.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  I am afraid this cannot really describe by words, and

 7    then of course we have the audio and video.  That would certainly serve us

 8    if it becomes a critical issue.

 9            Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  I haven't

11    been provided with the reference.  I wasn't given the reference

12    immediately.  I think that the Prosecution should provide the reference in

13    the transcript.  It is all right now.  They should provide a reference for

14    the original cassette because in the English transcript they mention

15    "hits" and "hiss".  It should be -- we should determine whether the

16    witness is speaking of one or two different things.  Is it a hit or hiss?

17    This should be verified in the transcript.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...several

19    occasions.  I think that there is -- at this moment since we have put this

20    question several times, it was the kind of sound, and where the witness

21    also said it was before the impact, it was not the hit.  So I think that

22    there could be not great confusion.  If it would have been the answer of

23    the witness only once, then it might have been different then what it has

24    been discussed two, three, or four times.

25            This then concludes your testimony in this court, Mr. DP21.  You

Page 15512

 1    have answered all the questions both from the parties and from the Bench.

 2    I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for giving

 3    your testimony in this court.  And since you told us that you would very

 4    much like to go back, I wish you a safe trip home again.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I would like

 6    to thank the Trial Chamber and I want to wish all the best to our

 7    Generals.  I hope they will return as soon as possible and thank you once

 8    more for this hearing.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] express your

10    wishes as to the outcome of the proceedings going on.  A safe trip home

11    again.

12            Would you please, Mr. Usher, escort the witness out of the

13    courtroom.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you, once again.

15    Good-bye.

16                          [The witness withdrew]

17            JUDGE ORIE:  I have been informed that on page 47, line 19 --

18    yes.  Microphone.  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I am informed and I checked it that

19    on page 47, line 19, the word "hit" is used where this confusion that I

20    thought might not have existed, might exist.  So we will check that in the

21    original tape.  At least the parties have an opportunity to do so, and I

22    apologise for being too quick in that respect.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is not a problem.  That's

24    what I suggested as a possible source of confusion.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, we have I think two exhibits.

Page 15513

 1            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1786, under seal, pseudonym sheet;

 2    Exhibit D1787, map marked by the witness.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  The documents are admitted into evidence as

 4    exhibits.  The pseudonym sheet under seal.

 5            Then, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 6            Yes, Mr. Ierace.

 7            MR. IERACE:  Just two matters before we do that, Mr. President.

 8    In relation to the 65 ter summary for that witness, there was no

 9    indication that the witness would give evidence as to impact

10    characteristic of 120-millimetre mortar shells.  In relation to the next

11    witness, the most recent 65 ter summary the Prosecution has is a letter

12    dated the 6th of November, 2002.

13                          [Trial Chamber confers]

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16    Mr. President, I just want to say that the only thing that the Defence

17    knows is that the future is uncertain.  The witnesses can appear and

18    depending on the nature of the cross-examination, they can say things

19    spontaneously.  We had the example of the sound; we spoke about it at

20    length.  We didn't mention it because we didn't think the witness would be

21    called to give testimony with regard to the sound and things of that

22    nature.  And then there were the poison gases --

23            JUDGE ORIE:  That is not the issue.  I think the issue of

24    Mr. Ierace is about the impact characteristics of 120-millimetre mortar

25    shells.  And I think that there were specific questions on that issue, and

Page 15514

 1    I did not hear any complaint about the sound of shells and neither did I

 2    on the gases.

 3                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 4            MR. IERACE:  That's so, Mr. President, and the transcript reveals

 5    where Mr. Piletta-Zanin rose to his feet, it was his first question, it

 6    was essentially the thrust of his cross-examination --

 7    examination-in-chief.

 8                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber prefers to have an early break, an early

10    pause.  So we will adjourn until 25 minutes to 1.00 and then we will

11    proceed with the next witness.

12                          --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start with the next witness, I would first

15    like to turn into closed session for a second.

16                          [Closed session]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 15515

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3                          [Open session]

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we are in open session.  Mr. Usher, could you

 5    please escort the witness into the courtroom.

 6                          [The witness entered court]

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Can you hear me in a language you understand?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of

10    Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

11    will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The

12    text will be handed out to you now by the usher.  May I invite you to make

13    that solemn declaration.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.  I did not mention your name, since

17    protective measures are granted in respect of you.  So we will not use

18    your name, and your face will not be visible for the outside world.

19            Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

20            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                          WITNESS: WITNESS DP20

22                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                          Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

24       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, since the Trial Chamber has granted

25    protective measures for you, the Defence and those present in the

Page 15516

 1    courtroom shall refer to you as DP20.  But first of all I will show you a

 2    document that you will have a look at, and you should confirm whether the

 3    data on the piece of paper is correct.

 4       A.   The details are correct.

 5       Q.   Thank you.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we could now go into

 7    private session so that Mr. DP20 can provide us with some more details

 8    about himself.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  We will turn into private session.

10                          [Private session]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 15517

 1  [redacted]

 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  We have completed that.  Please proceed.

 4            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5       Q.   Mr. DP20, you told us that in 1992 you lived in Mokro?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   In September 1992, as someone who lived in Mokro, and given your

 8    professional experience, can you tell us if you were engaged.

 9       A.   Yes, I was engaged in the Army of Republika Srpska.

10       Q.   Can you tell us which positions you were engaged at.

11       A.   I was engaged within the 1st Romanija Sarajevo Brigade.  It was

12    organised on the territorial basis.  It was in the wider area of Hresa.

13       Q.   So you were part of the Hresa Battalion.  Could you tell us

14    whether you personally know how long the front line was, the Hresanski

15    Battalion front line was?

16       A.   I can't say precisely.  12.000, 12.400 metres, something like

17    that.

18       Q.   Can you tell us how many companies there were within the

19    battalion?

20       A.   There were five companies at the line.  It was based on the

21    territorial principle.

22       Q.   If Defence shows you a map which shows part of the town, part of

23    the town where the neighbourhood in which you were engaged is located,

24    could you draw the battalion lines for us there?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 15518

 1            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we should

 2    now show the witness this map.  The map is 3724, and we received it from

 3    the Prosecution.  It is the same map that we showed the witness who

 4    testified here before this witness, and I think it would be a good idea to

 5    show this map to him in order to make things clearer for us.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps for the transcript, 3724, I take it that it

 7    is 3274?

 8            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No.  My colleague from the

 9    Prosecution said that that was a mistake that the Prosecution made.  It is

10    not 3274, it is 3724.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I am making the same mistake again and again, and

12    that is because I think that number appears on the map.  But the "P"

13    number appearing on the map is a mistake as well, as I understand.  Let's

14    proceed.

15            THE REGISTRAR:  And will there be a "D" number, Ms. Pilipovic,

16    please.

17            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D1789.

18       Q.   Mr. DP20, to the right of you, you can have a look at the map, and

19    if possible, could you first mark the site where Hresa is on the map.

20    Could you take a black felt-tip and draw a circle with a black felt-tip.

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   And could you write the number "1" in the circle.  Could you lower

23    the map a bit so that we can all see it, please.  Thank you.

24       A.   [Marks]

25       Q.   Mr. DP20, could you first of all tell us where the battalion

Page 15519

 1    command post was located in Hresa, the command post of the Hresa

 2    battalion?

 3       A.   Should I mark it?

 4       Q.   Mark its site, if you know what the name was.

 5       A.   It was here by this place called Drumovi.

 6       Q.   Could you mark it with the number "2" that's where the Hresa

 7    battalion had its command post?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Mr. DP20, could you mark the positions of your 3rd company.  I

10    think you said that you belonged to the 3rd company?

11       A.   The Hresa Battalion was the 3rd Battalion within the Romanija

12    Sarajevo Brigade.

13       Q.   Yes.  Could you mark the position of the 3rd Battalion or the

14    Hresa Battalion, as you say?

15       A.   Yes, I can.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Could we --

17            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   You will draw a black line, you will draw a line with a black

19    felt-tip.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask you, if you are bending over, we see the

21    back of your head and not the map any more.  So if you would stay at a bit

22    of a distance.  Yes.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I apologise.  Could the

24    map be moved so we can see what the...

25            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 15520

 1       Q.   Mr. DP20, to make things clear, could you mark these positions the

 2    places for which the Hresa Battalion front line goes, could you tell us

 3    what these positions are?

 4       A.   Yes.  Lapisnica, Valik, Emerovice, and Barice.  The line runs

 5    through these positions.

 6       Q.   What you said, what you have referred to a Lapisnica, Emerovice,

 7    Barice, is this something that can be seen on the map or are you saying on

 8    the basis of your experience?

 9       A.   Well, I was there, I participated in it, so it is on the basis of

10    my experience.

11       Q.   Does the line, in your opinion, begin at Kozja Cuprija or Barjak

12    where it says 1.300, elevation 1.300?

13       A.   It is to the south of elevation 1.300 which is on the map.

14       Q.   Mr. DP20, for the sake of the transcript, you have marked the

15    front line of the Hresa Battalion which extends to the south of Sarajevo,

16    to the north, and it is south of the elevation 1.300, and then towards the

17    north to Emerovice, and then towards the Barice settlement.  Have I said

18    this correctly?

19            MR. IERACE:  I don't see on my copy of the map an elevation of

20    1.300.  That may reflect the quality of the photocopy or it may be perhaps

21    that it is a mistake for 1.003.

22            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 1.003.  1.003, that's right, I

23    apologise.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  It just appears below the "O" of Sarajevo, I take it,

25    where you find the word Barjak and then below that it is 1.003.

Page 15521

 1            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2       Q.   Mr. DP20, when you marked the front lines of the Hresa Battalion,

 3    now that you have done that, can you tell us whether you know what the

 4    line of the BH Army was, where it was with regard to the front line of

 5    your battalion, did the BH Army have a front line?

 6       A.   Yes, it did.

 7       Q.   Do you personally know how far the demarcation line was from your

 8    front line?  What was the distance between the two armies?

 9       A.   Well, the distance wasn't regular.  It was between 200 to 800

10    metres or 1.000 metres.  It depended.

11       Q.   On the basis of what you personally know and with regard to the

12    lines of your battalion, could you mark the BH Army lines?

13       A.   Yes, I can.

14       Q.   Could you please mark those lines and could you mark them with a

15    black felt-tip and use a dotted line.  Mark their positions with respect

16    to your positions on the line of the battalion.

17       A.   [Marks].

18       Q.   Mr. DP20, for the sake of the transcript, you used the dotted line

19    to mark the front lines of the BH Army in relation to the front line of

20    your battalion, and to the extent that I was able to follow you.  You have

21    marked this south of the word "Sarajevo" under elevation of 896 where it

22    says Zecja Glava, that's where the front line starts and it runs north, it

23    is the front line of the BH Army goes through the Emerovice and Hladivode

24    settlements and continues towards Barice.

25            Is what I have said correct?  Is this what you have marked on the

Page 15522

 1    map?

 2       A.   Yes.  Zecja Glava, Emerovice, Alipasino Polje [as interpreted],

 3    and then further on to the south of it, Barice.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  You also mentioned Pasino Polje that that was a

 5    position held by the BH Army.

 6            Mr. DP20, can you tell us from when you were engaged as a member

 7    of the 3rd or Hresa Battalion, you said from 1992 until when?

 8       A.   From 1992 until the end, until the Dayton Agreement was signed.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we

10    have a transcript problem.  May I have your leave?  In line 23, I do not

11    think that the witness spoke of "Alipasino Polje." I understood something

12    else.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I say it?

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think there is -- I as a matter of fact the

16    translation said something different as well.

17            When you referred to -- when you said something about "Polje," but

18    what Polje?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  It wasn't a Polje.  It

20    was Pasino Brdo, rather than Alipasino Polje.

21            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   So, Mr. DP20, in the area of responsibility of your battalion, you

23    were there in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Can you tell us, who was the commander of your battalion?

Page 15523

 1       A.   Mr. President, may I address you?

 2       Q.   I apologise.  Do you wish to say it in a closed session?

 3       A.   I would only wish to mention names in closed session, please.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Well, Mr. President, it would be appropriate for

 6    there to be -- I withdraw that and start again.  The name of a battalion

 7    commander would not normally attract protective measures.  In my

 8    respectful submission, it should be given in open session unless there is

 9    a particular reason for it which the witness could, of course, give in

10    closed session.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Is the name also in the testimony of the witness who

12    told us during the Prosecution's case -- it is not in there --

13            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...could you explain

15    in closed session first whether -- I mean, names as such where usually

16    mentioned unless there are specific reasons not to tell them.  But let's

17    perhaps first turn into closed session in order to discuss whether the

18    name should be mentioned in open or in closed session.

19                          [Closed session]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 15524

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7                          [Open session]

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please answer the question.

 9            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Mr. DP20, could you please answer the questions to who was the

11    commander of the Hresa Battalion.

12       A.   It was Milan Plakalovic.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. DP20, do you personally, considering you marked

14    the front line of the Hresa Battalion, do you have any knowledges to what

15    weapons were used by the Hresa Battalion?

16       A.   Yes, I do know.

17       Q.   Could you tell us.

18       A.   Basic weapons, since this was an infantry unit, these were

19    automatic rifles, M-70, there was also automatic rifles, there were also

20    machine-guns, light machine-guns -- 7.9 millimetres --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter couldn't catch every single

22    calibre.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is as far as the infantry

24    weapons are concerned.

25            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I think I heard after semi-automatic

Page 15525

 1    rifles -- sorry -- in relation to automatic rifles, M-70, semi-automatic

 2    76.  The interpreter said that she was not able to catch all of the

 3    calibres.  Perhaps the answer could be given again and more slowly.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please ask the witness to repeat.

 5            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Mr. DP20, could you please slowly list for us what infantry

 7    weapons were in use by your battalion?

 8       A.   I will do your full answer.

 9       Q.   Slowly please.

10       A.   Automatic rifles, M-70, there were semi-automatic rifles M-56 of

11    7.62-millimetre calibre, then I said light machine-guns M-72 machine-guns,

12    light machine-guns, M-53 of the 7.9 millimetre --

13            MR. IERACE:  And the voice of the interpreter waned on two

14    occasions which I think caused some problems for the transcriber.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be some difficulties of the voice of

16    the interpreter very well, because also sometimes hear it at a very low

17    volume.  So could you please repeat one by one that -- so we start with

18    the M-70, and M-70 was what kind of a rifle?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Automatic rifle, M-70.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and the next.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, semi-automatic rifle, M-56 of

22    7.62-millimetre calibre.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Then we now come to the next.

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Machine-gun, light machine-gun 7.62

25    millimetres of the M-72 type.

Page 15526

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Machine-gun and light machine-guns,

 3    7.9 millimeters, M-53.  Machine-gun and semi-automatic machine-gun, 7.62

 4    millimeters of the M-84 type.  And not very many rifles of the M-48 type

 5    were of the calibre 7.9 millimeters.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   Mr. DP20, what you personally were issued?

 8       A.   Automatic rifle, M-70.

 9       Q.   In the period from 1992, September 1992 until August 1994, how

10    strong was your battalion?

11       A.   Well, that varied, the number of troops varied from 400 to 600,

12    something like that.

13       Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to which units were on the BH Army

14    side in relation to the front line of your battalion?

15       A.   In front of us was the 2nd Mountain Brigade of the BH Army.  And

16    specifically in this area where I marked our positions, they had about two

17    of their battalions there.

18       Q.   When you say "two of their battalions," can you tell us according

19    to the military rules, how strong is one battalion, how many troops?

20       A.   That depends on the establishment of units.  Each army has its own

21    establishment.  As far as I know about the BH Army establishment, their

22    battalion would have over 1.000 people.

23       Q.   You mean one battalion?

24       A.   Yes, one battalion.

25       Q.   As far as I understand, you say that opposite your battalion there

Page 15527

 1    were two of their battalions?

 2       A.   Yes, two BH Army Battalions.

 3       Q.   For this period of time, do you have personal knowledge or whether

 4    in that area of the front line of your battalion and the BH Army

 5    Battalion, was there fighting?

 6       A.   Yes, on a daily basis, almost.

 7       Q.   Did you have personal knowledge which weapons were used by the

 8    members of the BH Army Battalion with respect to your positions?

 9       A.   I can't tell you specifically for the battalion in front of us.  I

10    can tell you in general, the BH Army what weapons they used.  They used

11    the infantry weapons and the artillery weapons.

12       Q.   Thank you, Mr. DP20.  When you say "from infantry weapons," can

13    you tell us from which positions from infantry weapons?

14       A.   From the positions as I have marked them, more or less.

15       Q.   Mr. DP20, you told us now that they also used artillery positions,

16    they fired from artillery positions?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Personally, do you have knowledge which positions they used, which

19    were the artillery positions used with respect to the positions of your

20    battalion?

21       A.   They changed, the artillery positions.  For instance, the mortars,

22    they fired from Sedrenik, from the locality of Vasin Han.  The so-called

23    Babica Kuce, the Babica houses.  From various positions, those in the

24    rear, end of the defence lines.

25       Q.   Mr. DP20, do you have personal information as to whether there

Page 15528

 1    were mortars in your battalion?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Do you know which types of mortars were used in your battalion?

 4       A.   Yes.  We had 60-, 82-, and 120-millimetre mortars.

 5       Q.   Bearing in mind your background, education, and your occupation

 6    before the conflict started and now, in your battalion that you belonged

 7    to, were there other people, other persons who had -- who were

 8    professional soldiers with a professional military background?

 9       A.   No, I was the only one.

10       Q.   Mr. DP20, when you told us that in the area of your front line of

11    your battalion that there was fighting on a daily basis, can you tell us

12    how populated or how many populated locations were there, settlements, in

13    that area?

14       A.   There were populated localities on our side.  These settlements

15    that you can see on the map that I have marked, they were evacuated, there

16    was no civilian population there in those settlements right next to the

17    front line, to the first line of the front.

18       Q.   When you say that there were no civilians next to the front line,

19    could you tell us what is the area or what was the area of responsibility

20    of your battalion in this region in terms of the depth?

21       A.   Depth Glog elevation point, 1.406.

22       Q.   When you tell us on the map Glog --

23       A.   Yes, 1.406.

24       Q.   Can you tell us how much is that in metres or kilometers?

25       A.   As the crow flies, it would be about 20 kilometers.

Page 15529

 1       Q.   Can you tell us where were the soldiers of your battalion billeted

 2    when they were on the front line?

 3       A.   They were stationed in trenches on the front line or they were in

 4    the facilities for resting, either in the abandon houses right next to the

 5    front line, or in some facilities that were made for that purpose.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  May I just ask for a clarification.  What exactly is

 7    20 kilometres?  From where to where?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  20 kilometers.  I

 9    didn't --

10            JUDGE ORIE:  You mentioned Glog, and you mentioned the number

11    "1.406."  Then the next question as it appears on our English transcript

12    is:  "Can you tell us how much is that in metres or kilometres?"  We had a

13    point at that time and not a distance.  So could you please tell us

14    what -- perhaps, first, Ms. Pilipovic clarify the question.

15            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16       Q.   We spoke about elevation point 1.406, and we are talk about the

17    depth of the area of responsibility of your battalion.  And I told you

18    about the -- I asked you about the depth of the area, of your area of

19    responsibility, of your battalion.

20       A.   That was 2 to 3 kilometers.  I think about 2.600 metres, I

21    believe.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

23            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24       Q.   Mr. DP20, in the period September 1992 until August 1994, you told

25    us that there was fighting on almost a daily basis, I believe that is what

Page 15530

 1    you said.  Can you tell us:  On the front line where you say there were

 2    trenches and the houses where the troops were billeted, was there damage

 3    on the houses near the front line?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Could you tell us more about the damages.

 6       A.   There was damage from bullets, but there was also some

 7    larger-scale damage from artillery weapons.

 8       Q.   Mr. DP20, do you personally have knowledge whether in the period

 9    from September 1992 until August 1994, were there any periods when there

10    was more intense combat, when there was some offensive operations?

11       A.   Yes, on several occasions.

12       Q.   When you say "on several occasions," can you tell us which side in

13    the conflict launched offensive operations?

14       A.   BH Army.

15       Q.   Can you tell us from personal experience about some periods that

16    you know about when offensive operations took place?  We are speaking from

17    September 1992 until August 1994.

18       A.   In mid-December 1992 there was an intensive attack, as the

19    soldiers say, on the right flank -- right wing of the battalion, from the

20    direction of Zecja Glava, Barica towards Barjak.  On that occasion, they

21    managed to take three or four trenches.  After that -- that was returned,

22    and we established the line again as it had been.

23            Further on, very often, I can't tell you precisely about the

24    dates, but very often there were attacks in the direction of Zecja Glava

25    and particularly towards the locality of Barica and towards the locality

Page 15531

 1    of Mrkovici.  Because there the main road going through Mrkojevici, and

 2    this main road was built after the conflict started and that was the only

 3    link for the Ilidza, Vogosca, and Ilijas locality with the rest of

 4    Republika Srpska.  So we thought -- we assumed that their aim was to cut

 5    this communication.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind that

 7    we have some documents that are in English, my co-counsel will ask the

 8    witness some questions and continue with the examination.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

11    Mr. President.

12                          Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.  With the assistance of

14    the usher, I would like you to have a look at a document.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please assist, Mr. Usher.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not sure about the number

17    that should follow, Madam Registrar.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  The next number is D1790.

19            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, so there is no

20    confusion, on these documents we have numbers that we have put on our

21    exhibit list the Defence submitted.  So the numbers marked are those on

22    the exhibit list.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  We

24    started with an exhibit that will be, therefore, 29.  Could you please

25    distribute these exhibits to all parties.

Page 15532

 1            THE REGISTRAR:  Is this an exhibit that has previously been

 2    tendered and admitted?

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's what I will check.  I

 4    think it's 24.  It's my mistake.

 5            THE REGISTRAR:  So it is D24?

 6            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will check.  Very well.

 7    Ms. Pilipovic will tell you exactly what's what.

 8            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 1724.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Witness, since everyone has this document now, do you manage to

11    read English or can you read English?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember if on 24th of July and at the end of

14    July 1993, there was considerable fighting in the area lato sensu --

15            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I object to the leading.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you not lead the

17    witness in the way you did.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   Witness, do you remember July 1993?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Do you remember the end of the month of July 1993?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Witness, do you remember whether at the end of July 1993 something

24    specific happened in terms of fighting?

25       A.   Yes.  There was still the summer offensive was still underway, the

Page 15533

 1    so-called summer offensive.

 2       Q.   Very well.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I suggest

 4    that we do, considering that the witness cannot read English, is that I

 5    read the first paragraph of what we see under "A," and then I can ask him

 6    questions.  Do I have your leave to do that?

 7            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I object to that.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  On the basis, Mr. Ierace?

 9            MR. IERACE:  That --

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Because it would lead the witness?

11            MR. IERACE:  Yes, quite demonstrably lead the witness.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

13    Perhaps you could read the text yourselves and I will ask questions which

14    are not leading afterwards.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Do you want the witness to -- do you want to confront

16    the witness what is written here or what is your -- do you want to know

17    from him whether this is correct or not correct or -- I mean, what is

18    the --

19            MR. IERACE:  In the absence of the witness --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we would perhaps ask the witness to leave for

21    one second.

22                          [The witness stands down]

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  We

25    sometimes have problems with these documents.

Page 15534

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me first ask you, are you seeking confirmation of

 2    the witness that it is correct or that you think it is not correct?  What

 3    is your case in this respect?

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No.  No.  No, we don't want

 5    the witness to say that this is correct.  That is not what we are trying

 6    to obtain.  What I would like is that after one has become familiar with

 7    these facts, I would like the witness to tell us whether it is not true to

 8    say that there was even more intense fighting.  There are two things we

 9    can do:  The importance of the -- the level of the fighting at the time

10    and then we could relate to the credibility of the witness, and then also

11    to see whether it is just a partial reflection of reality.  But this seems

12    to shock the Prosecution.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  I don't see there is any shock.  What we see here is

14    a report of the military activity.  Do you want the witness to say that it

15    was -- I mean, if you want to confront the witness with this, you

16    certainly seek -- and it is not quite clear to me what you seek to achieve

17    by putting this to the witness --

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that I

19    was clear.  There are two things that I want:  First of all, to see that

20    there were not more -- there wasn't more fighting; and secondly, there was

21    more fighting than what the UN forces wanted to note, and especially

22    regarding the shells that fell in the Serbian part.  And at the same time,

23    we could, if we can do so, we can show many things with regard to prior

24    testimony when it was said that there was no fighting in the zone of

25    Sedrenik, et cetera.

Page 15535

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You want to establish the level of fighting and

 2    that this is not entirely correct or not correct at all.

 3            Mr. Ierace.

 4            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, perhaps my colleague could remind me,

 5    is this a Prosecution exhibit, this particular entry that he wishes to

 6    challenge?  Is it already an exhibit before the Trial Chamber?

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not sure that this is a

 8    document that has been filed by the Prosecution.  But in order to remind

 9    Mr. Ierace to refresh his memory, this is not something that I can do.  If

10    it is a Prosecution document, Mr. Ierace, you should know that better than

11    I do.

12            MR. IERACE:  Well, Mr. President --

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could we --

14            MR. IERACE:  -- my point is this, if the Defence says this is not

15    already in evidence, I fail to understand why they seek to challenge it.

16    What is the relevance of challenging an account which is not in evidence

17    before the Trial Chamber?

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there are two

19    things that one must distinguish.  We are not contesting the document.

20    The document exists, and we are presenting it.  What we want to contest is

21    certain parts of the contents.  I don't think we should confuse matters,

22    the document and the contents.

23                          [Trial Chamber confers]

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber deems that it would be

25    appropriate first to put the questions to the witness before confronting

Page 15536

 1    him with the document as such.

 2            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, there is a second part to my

 3    objection.  The passage refers to -- I take it the relevant part of the

 4    passage that my friend is interested in refers to an attack by SRK

 5    forces --

 6            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

 7    remind you of the two lines rule.  I have to interrupt you at this point.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9            MR. IERACE:  It seems that --

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Your objection started as two lines.  Could you as

11    brief as possible, Mr. Ierace, indicate --

12            MR. IERACE:  Yes.  The three locations indicated in the first

13    paragraph opposite the front line indicated by this witness.  So where is

14    the basis for this witness to give such an opinion.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for someone who

17    deals with military facts, we know that there were trajectories for shells

18    and we know that some can go astray and we know the distance if someone

19    can read the map between Kobilja Glava and Sedrenik which was one of the

20    incidents of the 24th of July, 1993.  We know that this is a fairly weak

21    distance in terms of artillery.  It may be fine if you go on foot, but the

22    artillery is not great.

23            So I think it is the Defence's right to try and prove that some of

24    the Prosecutions witnesses who allegedly didn't hear anything, to try and

25    prove that they lied.  Because we can see that there were at least 3.000

Page 15537

 1    shells that got lost in nature.  So this is an obvious manifest lie, and

 2    we hope that we can prove this.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  You may start asking questions to the witness in

 4    respect of it, but not immediately confront him with the document.  So you

 5    should ask leave, when the point has come to confront him with that.

 6            Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

 7            MR. IERACE:  While he is coming in, Mr. President, it would be

 8    entirely inappropriate for the Defence to contend that a Prosecution

 9    witness has lied when that has not been fairly put to the Prosecution

10    witness

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Let's refrain from words like "lies,"

12    Mr. Piletta-Zanin.  When you say it is the Defence case that is not in

13    accordance with the truth, that would certainly do.  As I sometimes said

14    before, strong words do not necessarily make strong arguments.

15            Please proceed.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly.  Mr. President,

17    given the need for time for the translation, I will ask a few brief

18    questions.

19       Q.   Witness, the first question, you are a professional, a military

20    professional.  You fought in the war.  In general, could you provide us

21    with general answers regarding the general events during the war, yes or

22    no?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, I am now speaking about the noise

25    an explosion makes.  When a shell, an explosive shell falls and explodes,

Page 15538

 1    does this produce a loud noise or a not very loud noise?

 2       A.   It depends on the calibre of the shell.  So it depends on whether

 3    it was a large or small calibre, but it is a shrill sound.

 4       Q.   Let's talk about large calibre shells.  Can this be heard only

 5    slightly or can it be heard very well?  Is the noise a loud one, the noise

 6    of the explosion?

 7       A.   It is a loud noise.

 8       Q.   Thank you very much.  When you hear this explosion, can it also be

 9    heard far away or only in the vicinity of where the shell fell?

10       A.   Well, that also depends on the calibre of the shells.  Some can be

11    heard further away and others can't be heard that far away.

12       Q.   I am not talking about just about mortar shells, I am talking

13    about shells in general.  These could be tank shells, mortar shells, et

14    cetera.  Thank you.

15            Witness, I would like to go back to the issue of the summer

16    campaign in 1993.  You said it was the summer campaign.  You said that a

17    large-scale offensive had been launched.  Was this -- did this offensive

18    use artillery?  Was artillery used in this offensive, yes or no?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Thank you.  The means used by the artillery were these means used

21    on both sides, by both sides to the north or north-east of Sarajevo?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we

25    have covered the basic questions now.  Given the time, I don't think it

Page 15539

 1    would be useful to carry on now, but I will continue to ask questions

 2    about this document later.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But would you think that the moment, apart from

 4    that we might have a break, that the moment might be there to start

 5    showing the document to the witness?

 6            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, he doesn't understand

 7    English, Mr. President, and I don't think it would be very useful to do it

 8    now.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from -- okay.  We will --

10                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's coming to the point where we will adjourn.

12            Mr. DP20, tomorrow we will not continue with your examination

13    because the Chamber has to do another thing tomorrow.  Only after we

14    finish that, we will continue to hear -- to examine you -- not "we" but

15    the parties will continue to examine you as a witness.

16            Do we have any idea, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how much time that would

17    approximately take?  Do you think that we would finish in one day and a

18    half or one day or...

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is obvious

20    and I can't say anything else, experience today has shown this.  We were

21    very quick with the fist witness.  But I don't think that the speed of the

22    proceedings depends on me this time, so there is nothing that I can say.

23    There is nothing I can say and there is nothing that I want to say.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  The -- I can't give you no indication because it is

25    not the Chamber which ask in ultimate control on how quick we will deal

Page 15540

 1    with the matter we have to deal with.  But I take it perhaps not tomorrow

 2    but the day after tomorrow that we will continue to examine you.  The

 3    victims and witness unit will take care that you are standby, so you

 4    should make yourself available.  And we hope to see you again as soon as

 5    possible, but not tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 6            Tomorrow -- yes.  Tomorrow morning at 9.00 we will start with the

 7    videolink which has been put in place and we have to deal with that first

 8    because this requires the technical facilities.  So we will adjourn --

 9            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, just before you --

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ierace was the first --

11            MR. IERACE:  I am happy for Mr. Piletta-Zanin to speak first.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, as I said,

13    I only need one minute to mention certain translation issues.  We will

14    save time if I do that.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace --

16            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I would ask that the Defence be

17    required to provide us with the dates of birth, addresses, and father's

18    names and company positions, if appropriate, by a particular date.  We

19    only have five dates of birth left or thereabouts, and we do need a

20    reasonable period of time to complete our inquiries before the witness is

21    called.  The date of birth and the father's name and so on assists us in

22    that regard

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to inform my colleagues

25    that the Defence is working on this and I expect this will take place

Page 15541

 1    tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow at the latest this submission will be

 2    filed, because my learned colleague mentioned this last week.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  May I then ask you, Mr. Usher, to escorts the witness

 4    out of the courtroom so we give an opportunity to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to

 5    deal with the translation issues.

 6            May I -- could you please -- you are not allowed to speak with

 7    anyone about the testimony you give in this court and you have given in

 8    this courts.  So you have to refrain from any conversations with whomever

 9    about the testimony that you are giving.  Yes.  Then, Mr. Usher, could you

10    please -- yes.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Please escort the witness out of the courtroom.

13                          [The witness stands down]

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, very

16    briefly, page 11 line 12, one sentence wasn't translated in the French

17    transcript.  Likewise, page 15 line 10 where mention is made of rape and

18    slaughter.  Page 17 and 18, this concerns the English transcript now, the

19    witness was more precise and he spoke about shells raining down on the

20    Serb lines, that is what he literally said.  Page 24 line 8, the English

21    and French transcript don't correspond to each other.  29, 25, translation

22    omission.  26, 23, mistranslation, no one gave instructions, orders

23    concerning the warehouse.  It concerned guarding and not giving orders.

24    16, 14, line 4, large-scale destruction.  This notion wasn't entered --

25    this idea wasn't entered into the French transcript.  Thank you very much.

Page 15542

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for your assistance, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 2            We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, and we will then

 3    continue with the videolink.

 4                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 5                          1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

 6                          the 12th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.