Page 15441
1 Monday, 11 November 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you are on your feet.
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. I am not sure whether
14 we have tendered the exhibits from the last witness. In any event --
15 JUDGE ORIE: No, we did not yet. Yes, I agree with you. Since we
16 changed Registrars again, I will ask the present Registrar whether she is
17 in a position to guide us, if not, we will do it after the first break.
18 Madam Registrar, has the...
19 If you would prefer to have some more time, we will do it after
20 the break.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would prefer to deal with it after the
23 first break, Mr. Ierace, since there has been a change of Registrars, as
24 you might have noticed.
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. One other -- a few other
Page 15442
1 outstanding matters very quickly. In relation to DP5, I could indicate
2 very quickly the shortcomings in relation to rule 65 ter.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be of any use to write them down. As far as
4 the Chamber is concerned, and also a consolidated list, so that we have
5 not the same problem as we have with summaries, that you have to grab
6 small parts and pieces from everywhere. But perhaps it is good that you
7 mention them very briefly, and then perhaps put them in a consolidated
8 document that I hope will not be too long, but finally that we have all
9 your 65 ter complaints together. Yes.
10 MR. IERACE: Yes, would you wish that I do that orally or just in
11 writing?
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just do it very briefly orally and then
13 we will later see it on the list.
14 MR. IERACE: In relation to DP5, we were not informed of the
15 company to which the witness belonged or the battalion or that the company
16 included a tank or where he was headquartered for the relevant periods, or
17 that he would give evidence as to the obtaining of weapons from the JNA
18 barracks, police buildings, and state companies. All that he will give
19 evidence of the objective of mortar firing by the ABiH in relation to
20 sniper incident 23. We were not forewarned that he would give evidence
21 that there were no buildings or even remains of buildings on the
22 Bosnian-Serb Army side of the relevant part of the confrontation lines or
23 that there was an artillery position near where the victim was shot or
24 that he would give evidence of places on the ABiH side where ammunitions
25 were manufactured or in relation to the digging of trenches on the ABiH
Page 15443
1 side by persons of Serbian ethnicity. Thank you, Mr. President.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since
3 Mr. Ierace did not wish to express himself in writing -- no,
4 Mr. President, since Mr. Ierace is wasting time, I am not going to waste
5 time. Everything is in a letter of 29th of October, 2002. We spoke about
6 the weapons. We spoke about other weapons in possession of the ABiH Army.
7 We spoke of the proximity and the confusion of buildings. We spoke about
8 contradictory character of certain documents. We spoke of many things
9 that resulted in the letter 29th of October, 2002. It seems a little
10 strange that we are told that we had never informed them.
11 Now, if every time we have to give a statement within -- have to
12 give a statement extensive, then we can stop hearing the witnesses and we
13 can just work by email. I don't think that is normal that the Prosecution
14 is complaining every single day, every single day they are complaining,
15 while the Defence is doing everything it can to --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I allowed the Prosecution, briefly
17 to indicate orally the points they said they missed. You have pointed to
18 the sources where the Prosecution, in your view, might have found it. For
19 this very moment, is that enough to deal with the issue?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again, as I foreshadowed, I indicate
23 that the most recent update to the 65 ter in relation to the next witness
24 is letter dated the 6th of November, 2002.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's your starting point.
Page 15444
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We can now deal with the exhibits. Perhaps do it now
3 rather than after the break. Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1784, under seal, pseudonym sheet;
5 Exhibit D1785, map; Exhibit D348I, video; Exhibit P3759, photograph;
6 Exhibit P3761, photograph marked by witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have
9 objections that you know already in relation to these two photographs. We
10 still have the same position. We cannot take something by the means that
11 we have already told you about, so you know our objection.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You also know that the Chamber has ruled on it, so
13 that objection was already denied. Then D1784 is admitted under seal.
14 The other documents and videotape are admitted into evidence.
15 Mr. Usher, could you then please escort the witness into the
16 courtroom. Yes -- the protective measures has been granted as requested;
17 that means pseudonym and facial distortion.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst the witness is being brought
19 in, we were informed yesterday of a new exhibit in relation to this
20 witness which is a simply a reference to the various sniping maps.
21 Perhaps we could be informed which particular sniping map the Prosecution
22 now seeks to tender.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell, Ms. Pilipovic?
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence said that
25 this was map 3274, but I informed the case manager, the Prosecution, that
Page 15445
1 by this witness we will not introduce any evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No document, I take it.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language -- may I ask you to
7 stand up again. Can you hear me in a language you understand?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, Witness, the
10 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
11 that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 truth. The text of this solemn declaration is handed out to you now by
13 the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The first page will just do. That's the other
17 languages. Please be seated.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Protective measures have been granted in respect of
20 you. That means that no one outside of this courtroom can see your face,
21 and that we will call you by a pseudonym. You will first be examined by
22 counsel for the Defence.
23 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 WITNESS: WITNESS DP21
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Page 15447
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, considering that the Trial Chamber has
4 approved protective measures for you, the Defence would like you to have a
5 look at a document that you see before you. Is the data correct that's in
6 this document, correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Considering that the protective measures have
9 been approved for you, as I have already told you, we will address you as
10 DP21.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since we wish to get
12 some biographical data in respect of Witness DP21, the Defence would ask
13 for a closed session so that the witness can give us some other
14 biographical data in this respect.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into private session.
16 [Private session]
17 [redacted]
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Page 15448
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23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Please proceed,
25 Ms. Pilipovic.
Page 15449
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. DP21, when you told us where you were born and where you lived
3 in 1992, could you tell us in relation to the centre of town what is the
4 part of the town in terms of the north, south, west, east?
5 A. It is the eastern part. It is going in the easterly direction
6 from the Sarajevo.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP21, we will be speaking about the period from
8 September 1992 until August of 1994. Where were you in September 1992,
9 although I wish to stress that you do not have to say the name of the
10 village where you were.
11 A. I was in my village. I can say it, but I didn't go anywhere. In
12 1992 in September, I was in my own village.
13 Q. In 1992 in your village, were there some incidents that occurred?
14 A. Not in the village itself, but we did have some problems because
15 we lived next to Muslims, our neighbours were Muslims, and we had some
16 fear and discomfort because at the time we were afraid of some misfortune
17 occurring like in 1942 when villages were burned and children and
18 civilians killed and their throats cut.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. But let us focus on the time of 1992. When I
20 asked you if we -- if there were some incidents that occurred in your
21 village, and you said that you were in fear. You, as a citizen, and
22 others citizens of your village, did you take any steps?
23 A. We took some steps, in fact, in April, even. So that was well
24 before September, in the local commune of Hresa consisting of five
25 villages. In the evening, one evening, we met, we had a discussion to see
Page 15450
1 what we can do because Serbs started leaving the downtown. They were
2 leaving with bags, with luggage, and what happened already, suffering for
3 the Orthodox people, that is for the Serb started. There was the
4 Patriotic League that was starting to be active, and wherever Serbs went,
5 were --
6 Q. Mr. DP21, could you please speak slowly and give me short
7 answers. So, what you are saying is that in April 1992 in your village,
8 you were -- you organised yourselves at the local commune?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us very briefly what were the steps that you took,
11 specifically.
12 A. Specifically, I can say that we created a defence for the
13 villages, guard posts, where we stood guard to defend our villages so that
14 they wouldn't be burnt down again, as it happened in 1942.
15 Q. Mr. DP21, when you say "our villages," you said that this is
16 easterly direction in relation to Sarajevo. How many villages covered
17 your area?
18 A. These were five villages in the local commune of Hresa. And in
19 these villages lived Orthodox peoples, and that's how we decided to
20 protect our villages.
21 Q. So that we can understand the situation very clearly, considering
22 that you lived in that part of Sarajevo, could you tell us if in the
23 vicinity of the villages where you lived, were there also villages
24 populated exclusively by Muslim population?
25 A. Yes. There were villages, for instance, Vasan Han there were also
Page 15451
1 Serb houses there also Muslim houses. And there was a threat for us from
2 the city of Sarajevo because the Muslim started preparing certain bad
3 things, so we had to be prepared.
4 Q. Mr. DP21, in September 1992, could you tell us how were you
5 organised?
6 A. Well, let me tell you, in September 1992, this was our initiative,
7 that's how we were organised without any other participation because we
8 didn't have any leaders. We organised ourselves for our villages. These
9 were like village guards, village patrols. We created a position, a line
10 in front of the village, to protect the people inside so we would be there
11 on the meadows.
12 Q. When you say that you established a line or a position, and that
13 you were on meadows in front of your houses, could you tell us: Did you
14 have any kind of protection on these lines?
15 A. Not to start with, but later on when our lines started to be
16 shelled and attacks were launched, then we started to fortify our
17 positions to dig ourselves in, to create trenches, because we were also
18 threatened by daily sniping from the Muslims because you could just be
19 hit. So we had to dig ourselves in.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP21, now that you have answered this Defence
21 question, can you tell us in relation to your lines, that is, in that
22 easterly part of Sarajevo you told us which villages these were. Were
23 there positions in the proximity of your line, were there lines that were
24 established by other entities?
25 A. Well, in front of us, ahead of us, there was a Muslim line which
Page 15452
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Page 15453
1 was perhaps 150 metres away from us as the crow flies in that part, and
2 they were on one side and we were on the other side. That is, we were on
3 the eastern side and they were towards the west they were facing -- they
4 would turn towards the west in respect of our line.
5 Q. Mr. DP21, with respect to your line, can you tell us what weapons
6 did you have, can you tell us that first?
7 A. You mean our line, my line?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. To start with, we didn't have any weapons. Some people would have
10 a hunting rifle, that's true. Then somebody would just come along to
11 stand guard. People had what they were able to get their hands on, so
12 that's how we managed to protect ourselves, just to be there to stop them
13 while the population would be able to leave, so just to avoid them being
14 killed again. That is what the -- that was the agreement, that was what
15 we agreed to do.
16 Q. Later on, you said you didn't start with any weapons or get any
17 weapons. Did you get better weapons later?
18 A. Yes, we did get better weapons later. When we got to it line, we
19 realised we were under risk, we realised we were under threat and we had
20 to arm ourselves.
21 Q. Can you tell us how did you do that? How did you get more
22 weapons?
23 A. Well, let me tell you, we were fortunate, although it is perhaps
24 not a good word to use, but there were some warehouses in Faletici where
25 the army had been.
Page 15454
1 Q. When you say that there was a warehouse of the Territorial Defence
2 in Faletici where the army had been, do you have any knowledge under whose
3 control --
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question doesn't reflect the
5 evidence as it is in English just as the Territorial Defence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us about warehouses that you were
7 fortunate enough to have, and you said fortunate is not perhaps the right
8 word. Can you tell us those warehouses, they belong to whom? What was
9 your answer? What did you say as your first answer to that question,
10 following you are words that "fortunate might not be the right word."
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, naturally it is not the right
12 word, since you are talking about victims, about people being killed. It
13 is not civilized to have such things, but it is better to defend yourself
14 than to be dead.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But my question is: What was then your first
16 answer? You said "fortunately we had warehouses," belonging to whom?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those warehouses belonged to the
18 Territorial Defence of the town of Sarajevo.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Was that your first answer right away, or do you now
20 add? Because in your first answer as we read it, was that it belonged to
21 the army, and then Ms. Pilipovic asked you about warehouses belonging to
22 the Territorial Defence, at least, that is what we read in the English
23 transcript. In your first answer, did you mention the Territorial Defence
24 or did you just mention the army? We can check it later, if necessary,
25 but if you know, please tell us.
Page 15455
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Feel free to check it, but these
2 warehouses belonged to the Territorial Defence. That is known, and it is
3 marked on the maps, because in those warehouses, the city of Sarajevo had
4 these warehouses at its disposal.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand what you now tell me. But in you
6 first answer, did you say warehouses belonging to the army, or did you
7 already in your first answer say that they belonged to the Territorial
8 Defence?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those Territorial Defence
10 warehouses. I think I have been clear, and that is clearly marked.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed. Perhaps we should
12 check during the first break because that gives always the best
13 information, because the witness, of course, is not fully aware perhaps of
14 what the issue is. Please proceed for the time being and perhaps we come
15 back to it at a later stage.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. DP21, you told us that you took weapons from the Territorial
18 Defence warehouse in Faletici?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were there any other people from your villages in that territory
21 who took weapons from that warehouse?
22 A. Yes, I know that we armed ourselves by taking weapons from that
23 warehouse because we had been informed that Muslims, our neighbours, also
24 entered that warehouse, they were the first ones to enter the warehouse
25 and to take weapons out. So then we followed and we went to take weapons
Page 15456
1 for ourselves, too.
2 Q. To clarify everything, could you tell us with regard to the
3 warehouses that you have mentioned and in which there were weapons, who
4 guarded them and who controlled them before you and members of the Muslim
5 population went there?
6 A. During the time of the former Yugoslavia, the Territorial Defence
7 guarded these warehouses. I don't know who was there. I had never
8 entered them before. The first time I entered the warehouses was when we
9 went to take the -- when we went to take the weapons. All I know is that
10 the Territorial Defence was there.
11 Q. But within those warehouses, do you know whether the JNA had its
12 premises there?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know what sort of information there was
14 because at the time I really wasn't familiar with these formations. But I
15 know that it said "TO," Territorial Defence, on the cases.
16 Q. Can you tell us when that was?
17 A. Well, we entered about 1992. I think it was in May or towards the
18 end of April. I can't provide you with the exact dates, with the exact
19 day, but that was the period, roughly speaking. And I have a piece of
20 evidence. It's been proved that they had entered before that because the
21 Zijo Lovcic who had a light machine-gun who had been issued to him, his
22 number was lower than Marko's number. So a Muslim and a Serb had obtained
23 weapons from the same case.
24 Q. Mr. DP21, when you say that you entered the warehouse, and I am
25 referring to you in particular, and you said your other members of your
Page 15457
1 nation, when you said that you went to the warehouse, what sort of weapons
2 did you take from there?
3 A. We took automatic rifles and semi-automatic rifles. We took
4 infantry weapons from the warehouse.
5 Q. Mr. DP21, you told us that you had organised yourselves and that
6 you armed yourselves. Can you tell us in terms of what sort of formations
7 you made, you composed? I am referring to the inhabitants from the
8 village in which you lived.
9 A. Well, we formed the defence for the village at the time when we
10 armed ourselves, we protected village to prevent an escalation from
11 occurring, to prevent rape and slaughter from occurring.
12 Q. I apologise. But can you tell us how many of you were there who
13 were military fit who formed that defence?
14 A. Well, about 70 men formed this defence group. But there were
15 elderly people there too, between 55 and 60 years of age, and even people
16 who were 65 years old. We didn't have enough young people, perhaps, 14
17 younger men, perhaps 40.
18 Q. When you say that there were about 70 of you, did you have a
19 particular name, how did you identify yourselves?
20 A. Well, we did this together and we protected the area together. We
21 were there when the Republika Srpska Army was formed. And later on, we
22 joined as a company.
23 Q. So it is safe to say that you organised as a company. In that
24 area where the front lines of your company were located, was there a wider
25 military formation that you belonged to?
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Page 15459
1 A. Later on, we were part of the 7th Battalion; that was after the
2 Army of Republika Srpska had been formed. First they accepted the
3 companies and then a battalion was formed. So then it was one army, just
4 one whole.
5 Q. In that area where your company was located, in order to clarify
6 matters, could you tell us where the line of your company was?
7 A. Well, I can tell you that my company's line was from Borije to
8 Moscanica, to the stream, to the Moscanica stream, down there, that's
9 where our line was, called Emerovice and Zecja Glava?
10 Q. Since you have told us where the line of your company was, could
11 you tell us, given that you have told us that you belonged to the 4th
12 battalion --
13 A. The Hresanski batallion, the 4th battalion -- I don't know what
14 the name was exactly, because it would change. I think at the beginning
15 it was the 4th battalion and then later, the name changed. So I don't
16 know exactly.
17 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge with regard to the number of
18 companies there were in the battalion, let's say that we are speaking
19 about the Hresanski battalion?
20 A. As far as I know, we had five companies in the Hresanski
21 battalion.
22 Q. Mr. DP21, do you have any personal knowledge of the zone of
23 responsibility of the Hresanski battalion, where was it?
24 A. Well the zone of responsibility of the Hresanski batallion went
25 from Borija and Zecja Glava, where my company was to Donje Bijesko to
Page 15460
1 Barice and as far as Mrkojevici.
2 Q. You told us that in your company you were armed with automatic
3 rifles?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us whether during the period from September 1992 to
6 August 1994, can you tell us whether you had any other weapons?
7 A. No, apart from the fact that we had two mortars, 60-millimetre
8 mortars, which belonged to the company, and that was all the weapons we
9 had. We had the 60-millimetre mortars.
10 Q. During the period referred to, could you tell us whether there was
11 any fighting in the zone of your company?
12 A. There was fighting on a daily basis on the zone of our company.
13 Almost every day there was fighting there, because they were trying to get
14 in to our villages and we wouldn't allow them to do so.
15 Q. When you say that there was fighting almost on a daily basis, have
16 I understood you correctly?
17 A. Yes, almost every day.
18 Q. Can you tell us, do you personally know, what weapons the BH Army
19 used?
20 A. They used all sorts of weapons, rifles, sniper rifles, rocket
21 launchers, even tanks. They fired at the line on two occasions, but they
22 used launchers all the time, and shells fell on our line.
23 Q. Mr. DP21, now that you have answered this question, can you tell
24 us what the positions of your company were. From the positions of your
25 company, did you have a view of the so-called urban part of the town?
Page 15461
1 A. You can't see the town very well from my positions. You can see
2 Hadi Brdo where I was, because it was in a sort of gorge, not exactly a
3 gorge, but you couldn't really see it. You could see part of Hadi Brdo
4 and part of Siste so-called shooting site where shooting was practiced.
5 Q. When you say that you could see Hadi Brdo, and Siste, the shooting
6 site, yes, can you tell us the positions of Hadi Brdo and Streliste?
7 Whose positions were these? Which army was there?
8 A. The Muslim army was there. They were at those positions. Hadi
9 Brdo was theirs, it was a Muslim village. The line was in front of that
10 village, and below Donje Bijesko, there was a Serbian line.
11 Q. When you tell us that you could see positions Hadi Brdo and
12 Streliste from the position of your company, could you tell us how
13 Hresanska and Streliste located with regard to the city?
14 A. Well, it is a good position because they can see the city. They
15 can see the city from down there, so the position must be good. I don't
16 know exactly.
17 Q. In order to be precise, when you say that the positions were good
18 and that the city could be seen, could you tell us which part of the city
19 was closest to Hladivode and Streliste?
20 A. Well, Sedrenik, the upper part of village towards Sedrenik, that
21 was the part closest to Stelici. And Hladivode is closer to Vasan Han and
22 to those areas there.
23 Q. Mr. DP21, with regard to your company, can you -- and with regard
24 to the battalion, can you tell us who the commander of the battalion in
25 Hresa was?
Page 15462
1 A. Well, this wasn't a secret. Milan Pakalovic was the battalion
2 commander.
3 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about whether he was a
4 professional military man or was he an inhabitant?
5 A. He was from Donje Bijesko. He wasn't a professional military man.
6 He had some influence and he reached a certain position.
7 Q. With regard to your company, can you tell us were there any
8 professional soldiers in your company, and when I say "professional
9 soldiers," I am referring to members of the former JNA?
10 A. No, we didn't have such men. We were inhabitants from those
11 villages, and we didn't have any professional men.
12 Q. Do you know whether there were any such men in the battalion?
13 A. No, I don't know about the battalion. There weren't any such men
14 in the battalion as far as I know. But to tell you the truth, I never
15 asked who was an active duty member and who wasn't.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP21, do you know where the command post was, the
17 Hresa battalion command post?
18 A. Well, it was in Hresa in Misinovic's house, that's where the
19 command post was located. And the people from the surrounding villages,
20 we moved them out, we moved them away from the line in case of a
21 breakthrough. We wanted to make sure that the people would not be killed.
22 Q. When you say that you moved the people away from the line, could
23 you be a little bit specific? Where did you move them away from?
24 A. Well, let's say behind the line, all the people who lived behind
25 the line, we would send up to Hresa, to the centre where there was no
Page 15463
1 shelling, there was no shooting. So the woman and children, we would send
2 them up there. Sometimes someone would come to visit their relatives, but
3 we moved certain people away. Tadic, we moved this person away, et
4 cetera --
5 Q. I apologise. Don't mention too many names.
6 When you say you "moved them away," can you tell us who inhabited
7 in those houses, the houses from which people had been moved away?
8 A. Well, Serbs, they were there. We moved them away because of the
9 action. Because when the shelling started, when the Muslims started
10 shelling, then shells started falling on their houses --
11 Q. Mr. DP21, I think you have answered that question. I wanted you
12 to tell us whether those houses from which people had been moved out, did
13 anyone use those houses while the conflict was raging?
14 A. Well, no one used them because they couldn't be used. It was
15 dangerous to live there, so the army didn't allow anyone to live there.
16 Sometimes when they said there would be a strike, we would be in those
17 houses.
18 Q. Mr. DP21, in the area of your company and of your battalion too,
19 from September 1992 until August 1994, can you tell us whether any
20 buildings had been damaged, any buildings that were in the area of your
21 company?
22 A. Do you mean behind the line?
23 Q. I mean in general in the area of your company.
24 A. Well, yes, there was damage. For example, when there was an
25 exchange of fire, when the Muslims started firing on us, for example, a
Page 15464
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Page 15465
1 bullet would hit a house, sometimes a shell would fly over us, and it
2 would explode in the village. Around those houses, behind us, the damage
3 wasn't extensive, but there was damage to facades.
4 Q. Mr. DP21, I think that you have told us that with regard to the
5 zone of your company, the Muslims fired from tanks?
6 A. Yes, they did fire from Streliste. I saw them with my own eyes.
7 They fired two shells in the direction of my line. I saw that with my own
8 eyes. That was about 1993.
9 Q. Mr. DP21, when you spoke about your company, you mentioned the
10 weapons, the positions, and the length of the line of your company; but
11 can you tell us: Were the members of your company, did they have
12 uniforms?
13 A. No, we didn't have uniforms. Some people were wearing civilian
14 clothes. Some people were in the reserve police force and they would wear
15 their uniforms, but mostly the members of the company wore civilian
16 clothing.
17 Q. During the conflict, can you tell us whether you as a member of
18 the company that you called Hresanska company, can you tell us whether
19 your company had a different name later on?
20 A. No, it was also called the Hresanska company of the Hresanska
21 battalion. It didn't have any other name; that was the only one.
22 Q. Can you tell us whether you as a member of the Hresanska company
23 received orders?
24 A. Well, we received orders from our command, that is to say from the
25 battalion.
Page 15466
1 Q. Can you tell us what sort of orders did you receive from the
2 battalion command?
3 A. Well, we received orders not to fire. We were ordered only to
4 return fire when they started firing at us. If they advanced on us, we
5 were told to defend ourselves, et cetera.
6 Q. Can you tell us how often such orders were issued?
7 A. Well, occasionally because quite often men would be killed or
8 wounded, then new men would arrive. And we received those orders, but we
9 also had a permanent order, according to which we had to respect the
10 Geneva Conventions. And we were told that we shouldn't fire on civilians
11 and we were told how to behave if we captured people, although this never
12 happened, but often we were given these orders verbally.
13 Q. You as a member of the Hresanska company, could you tell us, when
14 these orders were issued, where were they issued?
15 A. Well, they were issued over the phone or verbally at the line,
16 directly at the line. We would be ordered not to do this or that, et
17 cetera.
18 Q. When you say "verbally" or "over the phone," what did you want to
19 tell us with regard to the telephone? Could you clarify the issue of the
20 telephone?
21 A. Well, there was a line between us and the command. For example,
22 there was a telephone in the command; it would ring. And then they would
23 be told what the situation was, if someone was shot they would be told why
24 there was shooting. No one could shoot whenever they wanted to shoot, so
25 there was certain control and it was necessary to save ammunition and so
Page 15467
1 on.
2 Q. Mr. DP21, you told us that you also had two mortars in your
3 company?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I think you said 60-millimetre mortars?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Did you use those mortars?
8 A. Well, yes, we did. We defended ourselves with those mortars.
9 When our line was attacked, then naturally, the mortars would be used in
10 order to defend ourselves.
11 Q. How often were these so-called defensive attacks, how often did
12 they take place?
13 A. Well, sometimes these defensive attacks would take place every
14 day, sometimes every other day. There was shooting all the time. There
15 were attacks all the time.
16 Q. Mr. DP21, with regard to your company's line, and let's say the
17 line of your battalion too, what sort of lines of communication did you
18 have to the command? What brigade was it?
19 A. Well, I think it was the 1st Romanija brigade.
20 Q. Do you know where the command post of your brigade was located?
21 A. No, I don't know, because it wasn't necessary for me to know
22 this. I never went there. I was mostly on the line.
23 Q. In relation to your villages and other villages too, could you
24 tell us whether there was a road there, a route there that was important
25 for you as inhabitants of those villages?
Page 15468
1 A. I don't know which road. I don't understand.
2 Q. To be more specific, how could you communicate during the
3 conflict?
4 A. Well, we came from Hresa towards Sarajevo to Zecja Glava, if
5 that's what you mean to say. If you want to say which road we -- which
6 route we used to defend that place.
7 Q. How were you linked up to other municipalities and were there any
8 links?
9 A. Yes, we had links to Sokolac municipality and Sumbalac [phoen] and
10 we were linked to Pale through Sumbalac [phoen]. That was -- our rear was
11 a free zone, there was no shooting there.
12 Q. Mr. DP21, when you told us that your buildings at the front line
13 had been damaged, could you be more specific and tell us what caused the
14 damage to these buildings?
15 A. The damage was caused by bullets and by shells fired at us because
16 they probably weren't very precise when they fired. There were houses
17 behind us, and they would be hit by shells and damage would be inflicted,
18 naturally.
19 Q. Mr. DP21, you told us that you dug trenches at your line?
20 A. Yes, we did.
21 Q. Do you personally know how front lines of the BH Army were formed
22 with regard to the line of your company?
23 A. Well, the BH Army lines, I don't know how they were formed. But
24 they were in front of us and they formed a line. They probably had
25 offices there. I don't know how it worked.
Page 15469
1 Q. Do you know whether the front lines of the BH Army, do you know
2 whether there were trenches there too?
3 A. Yes, there were trenches. They would dig trenches in front of us
4 and interconnecting trenches, just as we did.
5 Q. With regard to the front line of your company, can you tell us how
6 far the demarcation line was between you?
7 A. Well, 150 metres as the crow flies, at some places, and other
8 places, 2 to 300 metres as the crow flies. Because it depended on the
9 layout of the terrain. It wasn't regular.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just confer
11 with my co-counsel.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my co-counsel will
14 ask a few questions and then we would finish our examination-in-chief.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. The questions that I wish to ask you are the following: When the
21 shells landed you spoke to us about these shells that landed, did they
22 leave any traces on the soil, and if yes, which ones? What were they
23 like?
24 A. These shells did leave traces on the soil where they would become
25 activated. They would leave craters. There would be soil dispersed if
Page 15470
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Page 15471
1 they would fall on the soil. But, of course, if they would fall on the
2 asphalt, then there wouldn't be so much damage, because it couldn't
3 inflict such damage, it couldn't disperse so much.
4 Q. Thank you. You spoke to us about asphalt areas. Could you tell
5 us what are the diametres of the shells that were used against you, if you
6 know, as far as you know, to your knowledge?
7 A. Well, according to the remains that were fired on them, so a
8 tail-fin would be left. The body -- the body of a shell has a tail-fin
9 which directed -- I don't quite know what the right term is. But it's
10 like a mortar which propels it. A mortar that propels it. So this was
11 like 82 millimetre, 60 millimetres, so these were three different types of
12 mortar shells that were fired.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe,
14 again, that I heard --
15 JUDGE ORIE: The French transcript which, if I am not mistaken,
16 mentioned 120 millimetres as well.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not only that, but
18 particularly in Serbian, what the witness said, he spoke of the 120
19 millimetres as the weapons, and it is not in the transcript,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the French translators whether I did
22 understand you well whether you mentioned 120? Yes.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I continue?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
Page 15472
1 Q. Witness, you mentioned to start with a 120-millimetre shell, and
2 could you tell us whether you were able to observe, yes or no, crater
3 traces of 120-millimetre shells in the area that you knew?
4 A. Yes, I did. I saw craters in the area. I saw that on many
5 occasions.
6 Q. Thank you. When you saw these craters of 120-millimetre shells on
7 the asphalt, I am speaking only about the asphalt craters, would you be
8 able to describe them to the Chamber? Could you tell us, what did they
9 look like?
10 A. Well, yes, I could. The shell would hit in a spot and a part of
11 the asphalt would be damaged and then there would be some kind of a hole,
12 about 55 centimetres. If it was a bigger shell, if it was 82, then it
13 would be slightly smaller, then 60 would be even smaller because the
14 charge would be lighter, so the crater wouldn't be so great.
15 Q. When you speak of a hole, could you describe this hole. What did
16 it look like? Is it deep? It is a shallow hole? What can you tell us
17 about it, according to what you have seen about the craters of
18 120-millimetre calibre shells?
19 A. 120-millimetre shells on the asphalt, it would be a hard terrain,
20 so the depth would be 20, 25 centimetres, and of course, on a meadow it
21 would be deeper, of course, because more soil would be lifted.
22 Q. Thank you. Witness, in these 120-millimetre calibre shells, shell
23 attacks, when they hit what's left is the tail-fin that you have
24 described. According to your experience, where did they land?
25 MR. IERACE: I object, not only to leading, but as it transpired
Page 15473
1 of making a statement and moving on to a question on this issue which is
2 not included in our 65 ter summary. Thank you.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first question
4 is not leading, because what I am asking, where is the tail-fin going to
5 end up, which is not leading. Now, if you read our letter of the 29th, it
6 says that we will speak about the weapons, how they were used, and I
7 believe that all the questions in relation to the weapons are admissible.
8 We cannot be more precise than what we have already been precise, so that
9 we can defend General Galic, of course.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: The first part of the objection is denied. The
12 second part, whether this should have been in the summary, the Chamber
13 will discuss this in due course and give further guidance on that issue.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very well.
16 Q. Witness, according to your experience of combat, fighting, that
17 you had, what could you tell the Chamber about what happened as a general
18 rule with 120-millimetre tail-fin when the shell hit a part of an asphalt
19 area?
20 A. It would fall off and it would jump off some 2 or 3 metres away
21 from the crater, it will probably be found. And that is also a good way
22 to find out what kind of shell -- what the calibre was.
23 Q. Is it in your professional experience that you have had on the
24 front line, is it how it always happened?
25 A. As far as I know, yes, it always happened.
Page 15474
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, now I'd like you to ask you another question.
2 Have you ever heard of the existence of a plan of your that would have
3 been structured in such a way to have the objective to eradicate,
4 eliminate, all Muslim population of Sarajevo, yes or no?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank
8 you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think I should start asking you whether
10 you are ready to start cross-examining the witness?
11 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President, I am not. One of the difficulties
12 that I have is that the 65 ter summary indicated that the witness would
13 indicate the positions of which he would give evidence on a map, and
14 indeed the Defence, as I've indicated, has told us that they intended to
15 use the map. And thus having elicited from the witness names of a number
16 of places, the Defence then sits down not having required the witness to
17 mark the map. Mr. President, in my respectful submission, that should be
18 done by the Defence so that the Prosecution can better be informed of what
19 the evidence is and then respond.
20 Mr. President, if you do not require the Defence to do that in
21 their time, then I will need an adjournment so I can make the relevant
22 enquiries as to precisely where a number of the places are that the
23 witness has mentioned.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we thought it
Page 15475
1 was useful in order to preserve everyone's means, we thought it would be a
2 good idea to proceed in this way. We had a meeting with the victims and
3 witness unit in order to preserve the chronology indicated. We thought
4 that in order to avoid a waste of time because we all have -- we all know
5 how to read a map, and the witness told us about names, locations, told us
6 about a stream. It would be easier to find the names, the location on the
7 map. If we are asked to waste time, we will do it. But, of course,
8 otherwise, the witness just has to stay longer in The Hague.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence prepared
11 the map, and I also gave it to -- also gave it to the case manager. It is
12 P3274. But considering the second witness who is on the same line, so the
13 Defence didn't want to take double time to do two maps for the same front
14 line. If the Chamber believes it is useful, we will ask the witness to
15 look at the map and we can resolve that problem, too.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the matter.
18 Ms. Pilipovic, the Chamber would also, for its own orientation, very much
19 appreciate if you would show the map to the witness. And the Chamber is,
20 of course -- fully agrees that it is of no use to present repetitious
21 evidence in this respect. But if there are two witnesses, and if one of
22 them will indicate the front line positions, then it is more comfortable,
23 at least for us, to hear it from the first witness so that we don't have
24 to guess too much. So if you would please introduce that map. And as
25 said, we are not asking for repetitious evidence, we are just asking to do
Page 15476
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Page 15477
1 it now rather than in the near future.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I just like number --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.
4 But General Galic tells me that the second witness is a professional
5 soldier, and that he would be a lot more at ease with the maps. We will
6 do this now with the map, but this does not mean that we will renounce to
7 use the map with the second witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I am not saying that. Let's just see where we are.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And also, Your Honour, if the
10 Registry could give me the following number. Is it 1788? Is it D1788 or
11 should we just --
12 THE REGISTRAR: D1787.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I can't imagine, Ms. Pilipovic, that you do not in
14 too much detail, but at least we have a global orientation of where we
15 are. Perhaps leave the details for the professional.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. DP21, on your right-hand side there is a map or a part of a
18 map. I would just like to ask you not to mark this in. If you can just
19 indicate locations with the pointer please.
20 A. I will show you the location where this Hresa company was in front
21 of Zecja Glava. I will show it to you here. Well, I can see this -- a
22 lot more is even on the screen. Here you have Emerovice, and here this is
23 a high power line which went here. These were the pylons and somewhere
24 here -- somewhere here was my line.
25 Two, there is the stream and from that where the stream is, it
Page 15478
1 would go all the way to Borija. That is where my company held. Now, the
2 other lines I wouldn't be able to show you properly because I am not fully
3 trained for this and I didn't go and look at the lines. But I know that
4 this line up to here, above Emerovice and there is Hresa here. You can
5 see exactly that is where I was on the line. And you have here some
6 houses. This is Topalovic and again you see the Tadic houses.
7 Q. Mr. DP21, could you please take a black fine liner and mark on the
8 map the area of responsibility of your company, please.
9 A. Can I have the black pen, please. Can I use this one?
10 JUDGE ORIE: No, we use different colours for the parties who is
11 asking you to mark. So it should be the one given to you by the -- it
12 should be a black one.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I respect that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I just thought that it
16 would be easier, but you can give me whichever colour you want.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We will then use a black ballpoint for the time being
18 and certainly we will ...
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. DP21, as the area of responsibility of your company, you've
21 marked the positions above the village called Emerovice?
22 A. Emerovice, yes.
23 Q. You have marked the positions of your company. Could you mark the
24 positions of the BH Army in relation to yours.
25 A. Yes, I can. From what I have seen, it is approximately here. I
Page 15479
1 will do it with a dotted line like this, like this, and here there is an
2 elevation point. It is an elevation. It could be about here. So it is
3 from there that they use sniper fire very often. So this was the line in
4 front of us, that was located there.
5 Q. Mr. DP21, can you tell us what was the length of the front line of
6 your company?
7 A. I really didn't measure. I don't know exactly what the length
8 was, but I know that it was in this area, perhaps a kilometre and a half,
9 approximately. It is probably not more than that. That is 1.500 metres
10 from there. You can see this part we covered, as much as I am able to
11 see. And here there is the stream, so it would go up to the stream. This
12 road here was not under our control.
13 Q. You told us about Zecja Glava?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you see it on the map here?
16 A. Yes, Novi Rad [phoen], Emerovice, it doesn't say here, but Zecja
17 Glava is here, its houses are here. If you want me to indicate them, I
18 can mark them. These are the houses here on Zecja Glava; that's what it
19 is. These are the locations. We call it Zecja Glava, but it is really
20 not written as much on the map. Emerovice was below, and then near Vasin
21 Han was the Barabana [phoen], so these are the directions. And above
22 Zecja Glava and Gromova [phoen] above from the left above is Faletici and
23 so on.
24 Q. Mr. DP21, this line, this communication line that goes below
25 Amerivica, Aluge, and Bronobay [phoen], can you tell us, what is this
Page 15480
1 marked?
2 A. These are meadows. These are fields. And this is the road which
3 goes above. This is the main road and below it you have meadows in Aluge
4 and Bronobay [phoen] Oru Movi. These are meadows, grazing fields.
5 Q. And you say main road which one is it?
6 A. This is the main road leading to Hersa that Aluge and Bronobai.
7 You can this is Hresa, and here you can see 1.150 metres, and it goes to
8 Zemunica. So that was what we had with the Sokalac.
9 Q. Mr. DP21, thank you.
10 A. You are welcome
11 JUDGE ORIE: This would be a suitable time then for the break. We
12 will adjourn until 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to start to
16 cross-examine the witness?
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, would you then please escort the
19 witness into the courtroom.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very briefly,
22 and in a couple of words, since you were to provide some information with
23 regard to 65 ter, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that in
24 November 2002, very not long ago, we mentioned a lot of details about the
25 tanks of the enemy, the means used, the mortars, et cetera, et cetera, and
Page 15481
1 we provided Mr. Ierace with this information. So we tried to specify all
2 of these items. There were also elements that we decided not to mention
3 simply to save time. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...in more detail.
5 Mr. DP21, you will now be further examined by counsel for the
6 Prosecution.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:
10 Q. Sir, were you the commander of your company?
11 A. Yes, I was the commander of my company.
12 Q. You told us earlier this morning about your observations of
13 tail-fins and craters created by mortars fired at you of the calibre of
14 120 millimetres. How often were such mortars fired at you, that is, 120
15 millimetres?
16 A. Well, you can't assess that it's just 120-millimetre shells,
17 because if you go and check to see what the calibre is, someone could die.
18 They shelled very soften. Sometimes the shells were 120-millimetre shells
19 sometimes 82-millimetre shells and sometimes 60-millimetre shells. If you
20 have a look to see where a shell fell, if you analyse how well it was
21 directed or not, well, then you could see that. But I didn't go to
22 examine this every time.
23 Q. Are you saying that it is difficult to say how many of these
24 craters were created by 120-millimetre shells as opposed to 82-millimetre
25 shells or 60-millimetre shells?
Page 15482
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Page 15483
1 A. Yes. There was a lot of shooting, a lot of shelling. They
2 shelled on several occasions, on many occasions. I didn't count the
3 number of occasions. I wasn't interested in that. I was interested in
4 getting out, saving my life, and the lives of the inhabitants who were on
5 the line, and I was interested in taking shelter, et cetera.
6 Q. You also told us this morning that your company obtained automatic
7 and semi-automatic rifles from the warehouse at Faletici. When did you do
8 that?
9 A. We didn't receive that, but as civilians in the local commune, we
10 had a meeting just before the war broke out, so to speak, that is to say
11 on the 2nd of April. And we would tear our hair out wondering what to
12 do. We were endangered, and as I had worked in the village for 20
13 years --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. The
15 general rule is to let the witness continue when he is speaking about
16 matters that could be of interest.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Just reread the question and -- yes, you gave a lot
19 of information. But the question was: When did you obtain automatic and
20 semi-automatic rifles from the warehouse in Faletici? So at what time?
21 Please proceed. Or could you please answer the question.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer the question. That was
23 in May. We went spontaneously as the inhabitants of the Hresa local
24 commune. These were people who were defending their village. They went
25 to take a rifle and return to their positions because we thought it was
Page 15484
1 going to be dangerous.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Just to give you some guidance, whether you did it
3 spontaneously or whether it was dangerous or not, if Mr. Ierace is
4 interested to hear that, he will certainly ask you. He first asked you
5 when and your answered that question. Please proceed.
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. When you arrived at the warehouse, was anyone guarding it?
8 A. There were no guards at the warehouse. There were a net of sort
9 of protective fence but it had broken down and you could get through and
10 enter.
11 Q. How do you know that the opposing forces had been there before
12 you?
13 A. Well, I know that because of the piece of evidence that I
14 mentioned this morning, the Zijo Lovcic had a machine-gun and a number of
15 which was lower than that of Marko Cavarkapa. The numbers of from 1 to
16 10, 10 to 20 and the number of the weapons in the cases. So both weapons
17 were taken from the same case.
18 Q. So you are saying that because a combatant on the other side had a
19 machine-gun with a particular number, you were able to deduce that it came
20 from Faletici and that it had been obtained from there earlier than
21 yours. Is that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. I suggest to you that it is not believable that the opposing
24 forces, if they had gone to the warehouse first, would have taken arms and
25 left other arms behind for your forces to come and collect them.
Page 15485
1 A. I say that they entered just like we did. We didn't take all the
2 weapons, but everyone took a few weapons, two or three weapons. They did
3 the same, perhaps. Because it is one people, you could say, in terms of
4 their ideas.
5 Q. I further suggest to you that what in fact happened was as the
6 time of hostilities approached, the JNA moved the contents of the
7 warehouse to ensure that Bosniak forces could not obtain them. Do you
8 know anything about that?
9 A. Well, as far as I know, they didn't transfer them. They left a
10 lot of weapons for the Bosniak people, such as the Marshal Tito Barracks
11 or the command in Bistrik, the headquarters of the JNA, and for example,
12 the Viktor Bubanj place. All the weapons remained down there because if
13 they hadn't remained there, where would they have obtained weapons from?
14 They weren't in a position to produce them.
15 Q. Did the ABiH control part of the Faletici area until about July
16 1992?
17 A. Yes, in front of the gate, the BH Army held that part, and
18 naturally the conditions were more favourable for them to enter.
19 Q. You drew on a map the part of the confrontation line that the
20 company you commanded held. What was the name of the company that held
21 the line immediately north of your section?
22 A. North of our section, the name of the company was -- are you
23 referring to the Serbian positions? I haven't understood you. They
24 were -- I apologize. Could you repeat that, please?
25 Q. Yes, the Serbian company, the Serbian part of the -- the Bosnian
Page 15486
1 Serbian part of the front line?
2 A. The name of the Serbian company was Bijustanska company. Because
3 above them was Donje Bijesko, and these people were people from those
4 villages.
5 Q. The only weaponry other than rifles that you have mentioned that
6 the Bosnian Serb forces had in your area were two 60-millimetre mortars.
7 Was there artillery in the area of Hresa?
8 A. It was in the Hresa area, the artillery was there, that is to say
9 in the Borije area, that's the name. I don't know what the name is
10 exactly, but there was artillery in Borije.
11 Q. And how far is that from Hresa?
12 A. Borije is about 2 and a half kilometers from Hresa. I can't tell
13 you what the exact distance, but I think that that's the distance. I
14 didn't measure it, so I can't say exactly.
15 Q. Did that artillery give you support from time to time?
16 A. Yes, they did give us support when dangerous attacks were launched
17 against us, because the Muslim formation was far stronger than the
18 formation in which I was. So this is why we had to ask for artillery
19 support.
20 Q. Did you also have support in the form of 120-millimetre mortars
21 from areas outside your company?
22 A. Well, let me tell you, the artillery did its job up there. They
23 made their own assessments, whether they needed to use 120-millimetre
24 shells, et cetera. But I am not informed about that. But there was
25 artillery support, but I don't know exactly what they used.
Page 15487
1 Q. When they used artillery or large-calibre mortars, did your
2 company fulfill the function of observers for them to ensure accuracy?
3 A. We couldn't carry out reconnaissance to see what they were firing
4 from because we were in a lower position with regard to the Muslims who
5 were in Orlovac above us. So it wasn't possible for us to leave the
6 trenches, the dugouts, because we would have been hit and we would had
7 been killed.
8 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
10 Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any need to --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to confer with my
12 colleague. Perhaps there is one issue. Yes, just one matter.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, at line 38.8 you mentioned the fact that
15 the BH Army was more or less at the gates, that is how you put it. I am
16 talking about Faletici. How were you able to get into those warehouses if
17 the enemy was present? What can you tell us about this incursion that you
18 carried out, about this entry into the premises of the Territorial
19 Defence. That is my first question; there will be a second one
20 afterwards.
21 A. Well, let me tell you, they were at the entrance, at the gate of
22 the Territorial Defence warehouse. We were on the other side. We entered
23 through the fence that had been broken down because the diametre was about
24 a kilometre and a half. So we entered from the opposite side. We got in
25 and naturally we hid to make sure that they wouldn't hit us, and then we
Page 15488
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Page 15489
1 took what we needed.
2 Q. Was fire opened at that point in time?
3 A. No. When we were leaving, fire was opened, but then it subsided.
4 We got out, there weren't any wounded people, no one was killed, nothing.
5 Q. Thank you. Witness, a minute ago you were asked about the alleged
6 transfer of former JNA weapons, and you said that the cases had the
7 inscription TO, that is to say, Territorial Defence. And my question is
8 as follows: Did all the cases of weapons that you saw bear this
9 inscription, the TO inscription on them?
10 MR. IERACE: Perhaps my learned colleague --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one minute.
12 MR. IERACE: -- could refer me to the line where that was said.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry?
14 JUDGE ORIE: The TO, inscription, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, has been
15 mentioned. But --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can do so, but I think the
17 witness stated this very clearly, as far as I can remember.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you have the line available, it certainly would
19 assist.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't have it available, but
21 I will have a look for it. We will find it under Defence, I think. It is
22 on page 14, Mr. President. It is the line 14 in my transcript [In
23 English] Territorial Defence.
24 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, in that case, it is a matter
25 which arose in examination-in-chief, not in cross-examination, as to the
Page 15490
1 issue.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, not
3 exactly, Mr. President. During the cross-examination Mr. Ierace mentioned
4 the hypothesis, according to which the army allegedly transferred
5 everything from the warehouse to prevent it from falling into Muslim
6 hands, the hands of the Muslim forces. This is a new issue. And what I
7 wanted to know, is in all of these cases, since the witness mentioned
8 them, naturally during the cross-examination, but given Mr. Ierace's
9 question, I wanted to know whether all these cases bore the inscription
10 TO, Territorial Defence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The answer of the witness where he says that there
12 were cases where a TO inscription, that was not specifically sought by the
13 question. It was a spontaneous extra to what the question was to the
14 witness.
15 Mr. Ierace, you paid specific attention especially to obtaining
16 weapons and, therefore, the Defence is allowed to ask specific
17 questions -- to go in more detail where it did not specifically seek this
18 information in an earlier stage, but in a very global scale.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Witness, I would appreciate it if you could answer the question
22 that I have just put to you. To the best of your knowledge, when you
23 entered these warehouses, with regard to the weapons, the cases of weapons
24 and the TO inscription that you mentioned, that is to say the Territorial
25 Defence inscription, did all the cases that you saw in the warehouse bear
Page 15491
1 this inscription?
2 A. Well, the ones that I saw, the cases that I saw, did have these
3 inscriptions. TO was inscribed on all of them. There were numbers there
4 and there was a big case, perhaps 130 centimetres long and 40 centimetres
5 wide. And on the cover, on the lid it said "TO," and on the side of the
6 cases you could also see the TO inscription.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank
8 you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions to you.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 [Interpretation] I would like you to tell me, please, whether you
13 know when you started digging the trenches, and if you do know, when did
14 the enemy start digging their own trenches? Can you remember who
15 started? Did you start? Did the enemy start? Do you know the date,
16 roughly speaking.
17 A. We started digging trenches towards the end of 1992 and 1993, and
18 in 1993 we were mostly in trenches and we were prepared. As soon as the
19 artillery shooting a bit, that was in 1992, there was some loud explosion
20 that was behind me, near Mocra Moguste [phoen]. These shells started
21 falling, and we automatically began to dig in because we were in danger of
22 being killed. After that, they started digging in front of our -- below
23 our positions, and that's how both sides formed trenches.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. And if I have understood
25 you correctly, it was around the end of 1992 and at the beginning of 1993?
Page 15492
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And my second
3 question, if possible: Could you tell me how you could distinguish mortar
4 shell calibres? Was it easy for you, your company was composed of
5 volunteers, people who weren't professionals, was it easy for you to
6 distinguish between 60-millimetre, 82-millimetre, and 120-millimetre
7 calibre. What could you tell us with regard to this?
8 A. Well, I could tell you at the beginning it was difficult to
9 distinguish it calibres, because we didn't understand this. But with
10 experience and as the war advanced, I could tell the difference between
11 60-millimetre, 82-millimetre, and 120-millimetre shells. I could even
12 recognise a tank shell, because the misfortune that we experienced taught
13 us about these matters.
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But in your company you
15 only had 60-millimetre mortars, so you didn't have 120-millimetre mortars
16 yourselves? You hadn't seen 120-millimetre shell?
17 A. No I hadn't seen a 120-millimetre shell because we didn't have
18 such shells. We had two 60-millimetre mortars, and the man who helped us,
19 he wasn't very qualified in that area. This is just something to use to
20 help ourselves because we didn't have 120-millimetre shells. We didn't
21 have such mortars.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. So with regard to the
23 two 60-millimetre mortars that you had, you said that you and
24 professionals and the men, individuals, who used these mortars, could they
25 distinguish targets, distinguish -- could they recognise the zone that
Page 15493
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Page 15494
1 they wanted to attack? Could they recognise targets? How did they act,
2 how did they proceed?
3 A. Well they carried out that task. We knew where the enemy line
4 was, and they would assess the distance between the lines, roughly, and
5 that's how we would defend ourselves. You could see for 150 metres, 200
6 metres with the naked eye, you could see the line where they had dug in,
7 you could see the land where they had dug out, and that's where the shell
8 would fall.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, because you said that the
10 enemy side was in an -- was on elevated terrain. So was it possible to
11 see them from your positions? Was there a view from your positions? And
12 did you only attack the trenches that you could see or did you attack the
13 rear of the enemy side?
14 A. We never attacked anyone. We were just defending ourselves from
15 evil. We didn't even see any civilians because they were behind. You
16 couldn't see behind the hill. You could see where the line was and this
17 is where we were.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But, your mortars, the ones that
19 you had, where did your mortar shells fall? Was it necessarily on the
20 lines or sometimes -- did they sometimes fall behind the lines? Because
21 you changed the positions of the mortars, didn't you?
22 A. We didn't change the positions of the mortars. They remained at
23 their positions, and they were used very seldom. Only when intense
24 attacks were launched, in order to repel the enemy attack, we would use
25 the mortars. If the infantry couldn't resist the attacks since the
Page 15495
1 attacks were of very large scale and we were afraid because there weren't
2 enough of us for that formation. They had very strong formations, very
3 strong units, as you can see now. This was shown on the television. At
4 the time, we didn't know. But on the basis of the fire they used, we were
5 able to see that they had many men, many soldiers, many Muslim soldiers.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, my very last question,
7 please, is in relation to the damage that you were able to see for
8 yourself, damage done by shells that came from the enemy side on your
9 positions. Was the soil, was it asphalt? Was it soil? Was it hard soil?
10 What type of soil was it where the shells landed?
11 A. There were several types of terrain. There was the asphalt road
12 in which the shells landed. Then there were fields. And there was also a
13 part of the grazing meadow where also shells landed.
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well.
16 I, again, would like to come back to where your shells would
17 fall. You indicated where the front lines were. Were ever shells fired
18 from your side that went beyond the front lines and go into the rear of
19 the enemy positions?
20 A. Well, I can tell you that personally I never fired a shell because
21 I wouldn't know how to do it. We didn't shell any civilian targets
22 because we didn't have enough shells. We would only preserve the
23 ammunition to have it for terrible situations to defend ourselves.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I am not asking about civilian targets. I am just
25 asking on whether shells were fired also beyond what you knew to be the
Page 15496
1 confrontation lines.
2 A. Well, I am not sure whether they would fall behind or in front
3 because obviously I couldn't see, I couldn't observe. Combat zone, there
4 is shooting. Who would watch where the shells were landing? There were
5 some targets that we have marked of the lines and most probably it fell on
6 the lines. Possibly, one or two may have gone over the line. Perhaps it
7 was a higher more concentrated charge. So it would go over the line. So
8 you wouldn't know exactly where they would fall. We would have lines that
9 were marked; there was a scheme. It is possible that the air current as
10 such would carry them further. Of course, there are experts who would
11 know how to do it, and this is not my area of expertise, so I can't really
12 answer these questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You never involved yourself in firing mortars?
14 A. No. No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever fire a mortar in your life, I mean,
16 apart from this conflict?
17 A. No. My very first time was to see infantry weapons because by
18 establishment standards, I was always in the rear. In the JNA, I was in
19 the kitchens. I liked to eat well, so that is where I always wanted to
20 be. In the rear, in the kitchen. Perhaps it is funny, but that is where
21 I was.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. You said in the beginning you
23 had difficulty in knowing what was a 120-millimetre shell and what was a
24 60-millimetre, an 82-millimetre, but slowly you -- when your experience
25 grew, you were able to tell. Could you tell us exactly on the basis of
Page 15497
1 what, what kind of experience was it that you would be better able to
2 identify the calibre of the shell in the later stages?
3 A. Well, let me tell you, this happened during experience. It
4 happened when the shells arrived, then you would hear a hiss. It would be
5 stronger, more intense. A hiss would be stronger. But sometimes I would
6 be wrong. I would think that it was 120, and it turned out that it was
7 82. It really depended whether it would land on the asphalt, it would be
8 a stronger impact, and a more intense echo. But it would feel on a field,
9 then it would be less. So you would think that that was smaller shell,
10 smaller calibre shell, but then we would know, according to our terrain,
11 you would know where it would fall, and then you would know which one it
12 was. Sometimes you would be wrong, but that's how we did it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that on the basis of sound and on
14 the basis of the size of the impact, you assessed the calibre of the
15 shell. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes -- no. We would assess it according to the firing. But if
17 you listen to the shell, it has a hiss. If you hear that and you are not
18 in the shelter, then the person would hear it without being in the
19 shelter, that person would be dismembered. Perhaps he would survive, but
20 it didn't happen very often. But if you hear the hiss, the whisper, so to
21 speak, that means it would land near you. You would be up in the air and
22 that's why we had the dugouts, the shelter. So if you would hear, you
23 would have to run and hide.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That is what I call "sound."
25 Yes. You say sometimes you might be wrong. How did you know or
Page 15498
1 is it just that you thought you were wrong or did you ever verify on
2 whether your assessment was correct or not? In order to know that your
3 assessment is wrong, you should know what is right. How did you find out?
4 A. Well, once the fighting would be over, I would go along the line
5 and see where the shells landed and each shell has this propeller, the
6 tail-fin, and then I would see, according to the tail-fin, I would know
7 whether it is 120, the tail-fin is larger. And if it is a 60, it is
8 smaller, so you know that. And then on the tail-fin, you also have a sign
9 of the calibre. So according to the leftover, the remnant of the
10 material, we would see which one it was. So after an attack, after the
11 fighting and when there was a lull, then you would see whether anyone was
12 wounded, whether anybody was killed, where the shells landed, would
13 analyse the error of my line, whether they needed to dig ourselves
14 further. It was important, otherwise if we made a mistake, our lives
15 would be lost.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever find a tail-fin embedded in the asphalt?
17 A. No. That cannot be embedded. Only if you took a hammer and dig
18 it in. Because once it falls, the tail-fin goes off, the whole terrain is
19 razed as much as it was destroyed, and the only thing you have left is a
20 crater.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay this answers my questions. This -- yes,
22 Mr. Ierace and Mr. Piletta-Zanin, both.
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. The
25 questions that I need to ask are in relation to the sound and to what your
Page 15499
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Page 15500
1 Chamber raised in relation to the sound.
2 Further re-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, first question, according to your
4 knowledge of fighting that you had, is it possible to hear a shell during
5 its flight, that is, a mortar shell? It is possible to hear it while it
6 is flying, yes or no?
7 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. The witness has already
8 given evidence about that, quite clearly.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
11 MR. IERACE: Well, perhaps the objection should be in the absence
12 of the witness, Mr. President.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would ask to -- for the opportunity
15 to say something in the absence of the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to clarify one thing.
17 You told us about the hiss -- I would say more or less the hissing
18 sound -- yes, Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE: I apologise, Mr. President. I would seek to address
20 the Trial Chamber in the absence of the witness on a different issue.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it is a different issue. Mr. Usher, would
22 you please escort the witness out of the courtroom. There is another
23 issue that we have to discuss, so if you would have the patience and leave
24 the courtroom with the usher.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I hope it is not very long
Page 15501
1 because I am longing to go home. Thank you.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
4 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, while you
5 and Your Honors were conferring, Madam Pilipovic spoke, I could not hear
6 the words. If they were caught by tape, I would like to know what they
7 were. If I could hear them, the witness could hear them. I think I know
8 what one of the words was, but I would be grateful if it was caught by
9 tape so that we can hear what they were.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are now here
12 not in an adult court, but in the court of the school. I practically
13 didn't hear what Ms. Pilipovic wanted to say to me. You are closer to
14 Mr. Ierace. Did you hear anything, you, Mr. President, who had one ear
15 free?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, what is it what you said so that we
17 can get a first impression of whether it could have -- yes.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I didn't
19 say anything to my colleague. I just turned myself because I was called
20 by the General, and I think I said something like "it's not that" or
21 something like that. I can't quite remember at this moment. I certainly
22 didn't say anything in relation to what the witness could hear or
23 register. I have no objection to have -- to listen to the tape. The tape
24 is listened to. But I think that's what I said, something to the General,
25 I believe, something like very quietly, it was something in relation to
Page 15502
1 whether the Witness had answered the question or something to do with the
2 sound. But as far as I remember, I didn't actually say anything. Thank
3 you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that you think you said something like
5 "it's not that." If a witness -- if a question is put to a witness, and I
6 think we discussed this issue before, that the line like
7 "it's not that" let's just assume that you said something like that, could
8 be -- it could be totally inappropriate. I ordered the Defence before not
9 to speak at a volume that could be heard -- I do not say "was heard" but
10 "could be heard" by the witness anything at all.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that we were
12 only commenting on whether the witness has answered that question or not.
13 At this very moment, I really cannot rewind and I have no objection to it
14 being listened to.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Why will see whether it is necessary to further
16 investigate. But commenting or using a line such as you indicated you
17 might have spoken, are not allowed. It is not the first time that I have
18 to draw the attention of the Defence to that. If you want to confer, I
19 would say just as the Judges do, if you ever overheard what we said, I
20 would like to know, but we are usually able to speak to each other in a
21 way that you could not hear it, and that is how it should be. Yes.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Absolutely. I
23 am aware of that, but the only thing I can say is that it is almost
24 impossible to have -- in communication for us to be absolutely cautious.
25 I am trying not to communicate too loudly, but there are certain moments
Page 15503
1 when things just get out of control.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you should keep it under control.
3 Mr. Ierace, what you think you heard, would that coincide with the
4 information the Chamber just received?
5 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I heard "no, no" followed by --
6 "na, na," I should say followed by some other words. At that stage,
7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin then may a physical gesture indicating to my
8 interpretation for Ms. Pilipovic to keep her voice down. It came in the
9 context of the question asked to the witness requiring specifically a "yes
10 or no" answer. Whatever the --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you whether this what just has been said by
12 the Defence finds confirmation in what you think you noticed. I think the
13 matter has been dealt with now, and I would say that it should not happen
14 again. That's the only thing that I would like to say. Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to slight
16 things, perhaps, even one thing: Sometimes we hear what you say, however,
17 the courtesy -- but you have to know for the future, sometimes your
18 microphone is on and --
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...matter had been
20 dealt with sufficiently, that means that we could now continue --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into
23 the courtroom again.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to verify because we were stuck on an
Page 15504
1 objection, more or less, and you've got one second --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You told us in one of your earlier answers: "If you
4 listen to the shell, it has a hiss," that's how I understood your
5 testimony. What is that hiss? Is that the sound when it flies or is it
6 something else?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hiss you can hear when the shell
8 approaches you. At that time, it goes "Shhh," and unless the very same
9 second you don't throw yourself into the shelter, 10, 20 metres around
10 you, the shell has landed, and particularly if it is a 120-millimetre
11 metre, it is a catastrophe. As soon as you hear the shell going "Shhh,"
12 you have to go into the shelter, because that means it is arriving.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It is the sound of the shell arriving in the air to
14 its target, is that what it is?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The question has been answered, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I
17 just wanted clarification of what the exact answer was in order to avoid
18 any misunderstanding.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. The second question in relation to this that I was going to ask at
22 a different moment at the flight of the mortar shell, before it arrives at
23 the target, can you hear anything, yes or no?
24 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. Leading in the extreme and
25 not -- ineffectively revisits the issue which you just clarified.
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Page 15507
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I don't think it is exactly the same. The
2 question now is: If a mortar shell would not specifically approach you,
3 but perhaps fly from I don't know where to I don't know where, could you
4 then hear it?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. At that time you don't
6 hear anything, you don't see anything. When it approaches you, then it
7 has a hiss. Because that's when it is about to land and you can hear the
8 tail-fins hissing, going around, but somewhere up in the space, in the
9 air, you cannot hear it because it is too far away. How could you hear it
10 then?
11 JUDGE ORIE: You said you can't hear it; you can't see it. Is
12 that correct?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that case, it cannot be seen, it
14 cannot be heard. It would be like asking me, can you see a mosquito at
15 300 metres, of course you cannot.
16 JUDGE ORIE: How do you know that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have seen it hundreds of times.
18 It is the experience. If I would see a shell, we would have to
19 immediately go. If you -- if you would be -- if you were able to see a
20 shell approaching and arriving and hearing it, then nobody would ever be
21 killed because you could hear it and see it approaching.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you just told us that you couldn't see and
23 you couldn't hear a shell if it was flying over. So would it not be
24 difficult to establish that? Because if you do not hear or do not see
25 anything, there are two possibilities: One, that there is a shell flying
Page 15508
1 over, but you can't hear it and you can't see it; second possibility is
2 that there was no shell flying over you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you: When a shell
4 is fired, it doesn't arc in the air and it goes down. This arc that it's
5 up there in the air, you cannot see it because it a far too high. It
6 cannot be seen. It cannot be heard because it a very far away. But when
7 it's coming down to the target approaching you, "Shhh," then that's when
8 it explodes. So where you are when you hear the shell hissing, unless you
9 are already in the shelter or you are throwing yourself into the shelter,
10 then it will explode and that's it. So whoever heard the shell and
11 wasn't -- didn't move immediately, very few have survived that.
12 I think that's quite logical. I don't know whether you have had
13 any contacts with the army.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.
15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, any other issue?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, just to clarify things.
17 Q. Witness, you tell us about this whistling sound, this hiss that
18 the mortar shell does at the moment when it is going to hit the target.
19 Does this rule apply to all the categories, that is the ones that your
20 have mentioned, the 60, the 82 and the 120?
21 A. Yes, for all of them. Because when it approaches the land, you
22 can hear it. But some of them that is heavier, it will be sooner, but
23 sometimes if it is a smaller calibre, then it will be later.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further
25 questions.
Page 15509
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, just in order to avoid to tell the
2 witness that this concludes his evidence, any questions from you as well?
3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
4 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ierace:
5 Q. Earlier, you told us that the hissing sound was a way for you to
6 tell if it was a 120-millimetre shell or not. Is the noise louder --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is not quite what the
9 testimony of the witness is. I object, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
12 continues]...didn't say --
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...please requote the
14 part you are referring to.
15 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
16 Q. You were asked a question by the President, you were asked: "Could
17 you tell us exactly on the basis of what, what kind of experience was it,
18 that you would be better able to identify the calibre of the shell in the
19 later stages?"
20 You said: "Well, let me tell you, this happened during
21 experience. It happened when the shells arrived that you would hear a
22 hit. It would be stronger, more intense. A hiss would be stronger."
23 And later -- that will do, I think.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I know
25 where the quote comes from. Mr. Ierace hasn't provided us with a
Page 15510
1 reference.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Page 47 line 20.
3 MR. IERACE:
4 Q. Now, the hiss you told us --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- yes, please proceed.
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. You told us that the hiss assisted you to tell if it was
8 120-millimetre shell, rather than a shell of a different size. What was
9 it about the hiss that enabled you to identify the shell coming in as
10 being 120 millimetres? Was it louder or did it have a different type of
11 sound?
12 A. Please, listen to what I am saying. I worked in a printing
13 company. I am very familiar with words. If I say that there was an
14 intense hiss that a 120-millimetre shell made a louder hiss, that means it
15 was of a larger calibre. It the sound wasn't as loud, that means it was
16 an 82 or a 60 millimetre one. I am telling you on the basis of my
17 personal experience. This is what I heard and what I observed. So don't
18 maltreat me too much, because if I am here and if I am talking to you, I
19 am telling the truth didn't come to deceive anyone. A shell which is
20 approaching its target --
21 JUDGE ORIE: All the parties -- would you please look to me. All
22 the parties are going to put questions to you. There is no question of
23 deceiving anyone, but sometimes we want even to know more details about
24 what you told us, and that's what Mr. Ierace is asking you.
25 Has the question been answered, Mr. Ierace?
Page 15511
1 MR. IERACE: It certainly has, Mr. President --
2 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please. Yes.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the remaining issue is how we
4 capture in the transcript the sound that the witness has described. It is
5 not a constant sound. There is a quaver in it or a quiver in it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I am afraid this cannot really describe by words, and
7 then of course we have the audio and video. That would certainly serve us
8 if it becomes a critical issue.
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I haven't
11 been provided with the reference. I wasn't given the reference
12 immediately. I think that the Prosecution should provide the reference in
13 the transcript. It is all right now. They should provide a reference for
14 the original cassette because in the English transcript they mention
15 "hits" and "hiss". It should be -- we should determine whether the
16 witness is speaking of one or two different things. Is it a hit or hiss?
17 This should be verified in the transcript.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...several
19 occasions. I think that there is -- at this moment since we have put this
20 question several times, it was the kind of sound, and where the witness
21 also said it was before the impact, it was not the hit. So I think that
22 there could be not great confusion. If it would have been the answer of
23 the witness only once, then it might have been different then what it has
24 been discussed two, three, or four times.
25 This then concludes your testimony in this court, Mr. DP21. You
Page 15512
1 have answered all the questions both from the parties and from the Bench.
2 I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for giving
3 your testimony in this court. And since you told us that you would very
4 much like to go back, I wish you a safe trip home again.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I would like
6 to thank the Trial Chamber and I want to wish all the best to our
7 Generals. I hope they will return as soon as possible and thank you once
8 more for this hearing.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...to express your
10 wishes as to the outcome of the proceedings going on. A safe trip home
11 again.
12 Would you please, Mr. Usher, escort the witness out of the
13 courtroom.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, once again.
15 Good-bye.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I have been informed that on page 47, line 19 --
18 yes. Microphone. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I am informed and I checked it that
19 on page 47, line 19, the word "hit" is used where this confusion that I
20 thought might not have existed, might exist. So we will check that in the
21 original tape. At least the parties have an opportunity to do so, and I
22 apologise for being too quick in that respect.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is not a problem. That's
24 what I suggested as a possible source of confusion.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, we have I think two exhibits.
Page 15513
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1786, under seal, pseudonym sheet;
2 Exhibit D1787, map marked by the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The documents are admitted into evidence as
4 exhibits. The pseudonym sheet under seal.
5 Then, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
6 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Just two matters before we do that, Mr. President.
8 In relation to the 65 ter summary for that witness, there was no
9 indication that the witness would give evidence as to impact
10 characteristic of 120-millimetre mortar shells. In relation to the next
11 witness, the most recent 65 ter summary the Prosecution has is a letter
12 dated the 6th of November, 2002.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Mr. President, I just want to say that the only thing that the Defence
17 knows is that the future is uncertain. The witnesses can appear and
18 depending on the nature of the cross-examination, they can say things
19 spontaneously. We had the example of the sound; we spoke about it at
20 length. We didn't mention it because we didn't think the witness would be
21 called to give testimony with regard to the sound and things of that
22 nature. And then there were the poison gases --
23 JUDGE ORIE: That is not the issue. I think the issue of
24 Mr. Ierace is about the impact characteristics of 120-millimetre mortar
25 shells. And I think that there were specific questions on that issue, and
Page 15514
1 I did not hear any complaint about the sound of shells and neither did I
2 on the gases.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. IERACE: That's so, Mr. President, and the transcript reveals
5 where Mr. Piletta-Zanin rose to his feet, it was his first question, it
6 was essentially the thrust of his cross-examination --
7 examination-in-chief.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber prefers to have an early break, an early
10 pause. So we will adjourn until 25 minutes to 1.00 and then we will
11 proceed with the next witness.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we start with the next witness, I would first
15 like to turn into closed session for a second.
16 [Closed session]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 15515
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session. Mr. Usher, could you
5 please escort the witness into the courtroom.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of
10 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
11 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
12 text will be handed out to you now by the usher. May I invite you to make
13 that solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. I did not mention your name, since
17 protective measures are granted in respect of you. So we will not use
18 your name, and your face will not be visible for the outside world.
19 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS DP20
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, since the Trial Chamber has granted
25 protective measures for you, the Defence and those present in the
Page 15516
1 courtroom shall refer to you as DP20. But first of all I will show you a
2 document that you will have a look at, and you should confirm whether the
3 data on the piece of paper is correct.
4 A. The details are correct.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we could now go into
7 private session so that Mr. DP20 can provide us with some more details
8 about himself.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 15517
1 [redacted]
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We have completed that. Please proceed.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. DP20, you told us that in 1992 you lived in Mokro?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In September 1992, as someone who lived in Mokro, and given your
8 professional experience, can you tell us if you were engaged.
9 A. Yes, I was engaged in the Army of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. Can you tell us which positions you were engaged at.
11 A. I was engaged within the 1st Romanija Sarajevo Brigade. It was
12 organised on the territorial basis. It was in the wider area of Hresa.
13 Q. So you were part of the Hresa Battalion. Could you tell us
14 whether you personally know how long the front line was, the Hresanski
15 Battalion front line was?
16 A. I can't say precisely. 12.000, 12.400 metres, something like
17 that.
18 Q. Can you tell us how many companies there were within the
19 battalion?
20 A. There were five companies at the line. It was based on the
21 territorial principle.
22 Q. If Defence shows you a map which shows part of the town, part of
23 the town where the neighbourhood in which you were engaged is located,
24 could you draw the battalion lines for us there?
25 A. Yes.
Page 15518
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we should
2 now show the witness this map. The map is 3724, and we received it from
3 the Prosecution. It is the same map that we showed the witness who
4 testified here before this witness, and I think it would be a good idea to
5 show this map to him in order to make things clearer for us.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps for the transcript, 3724, I take it that it
7 is 3274?
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. My colleague from the
9 Prosecution said that that was a mistake that the Prosecution made. It is
10 not 3274, it is 3724.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I am making the same mistake again and again, and
12 that is because I think that number appears on the map. But the "P"
13 number appearing on the map is a mistake as well, as I understand. Let's
14 proceed.
15 THE REGISTRAR: And will there be a "D" number, Ms. Pilipovic,
16 please.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D1789.
18 Q. Mr. DP20, to the right of you, you can have a look at the map, and
19 if possible, could you first mark the site where Hresa is on the map.
20 Could you take a black felt-tip and draw a circle with a black felt-tip.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And could you write the number "1" in the circle. Could you lower
23 the map a bit so that we can all see it, please. Thank you.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Mr. DP20, could you first of all tell us where the battalion
Page 15519
1 command post was located in Hresa, the command post of the Hresa
2 battalion?
3 A. Should I mark it?
4 Q. Mark its site, if you know what the name was.
5 A. It was here by this place called Drumovi.
6 Q. Could you mark it with the number "2" that's where the Hresa
7 battalion had its command post?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. DP20, could you mark the positions of your 3rd company. I
10 think you said that you belonged to the 3rd company?
11 A. The Hresa Battalion was the 3rd Battalion within the Romanija
12 Sarajevo Brigade.
13 Q. Yes. Could you mark the position of the 3rd Battalion or the
14 Hresa Battalion, as you say?
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we --
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You will draw a black line, you will draw a line with a black
19 felt-tip.
20 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, if you are bending over, we see the
21 back of your head and not the map any more. So if you would stay at a bit
22 of a distance. Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I apologise. Could the
24 map be moved so we can see what the...
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 15520
1 Q. Mr. DP20, to make things clear, could you mark these positions the
2 places for which the Hresa Battalion front line goes, could you tell us
3 what these positions are?
4 A. Yes. Lapisnica, Valik, Emerovice, and Barice. The line runs
5 through these positions.
6 Q. What you said, what you have referred to a Lapisnica, Emerovice,
7 Barice, is this something that can be seen on the map or are you saying on
8 the basis of your experience?
9 A. Well, I was there, I participated in it, so it is on the basis of
10 my experience.
11 Q. Does the line, in your opinion, begin at Kozja Cuprija or Barjak
12 where it says 1.300, elevation 1.300?
13 A. It is to the south of elevation 1.300 which is on the map.
14 Q. Mr. DP20, for the sake of the transcript, you have marked the
15 front line of the Hresa Battalion which extends to the south of Sarajevo,
16 to the north, and it is south of the elevation 1.300, and then towards the
17 north to Emerovice, and then towards the Barice settlement. Have I said
18 this correctly?
19 MR. IERACE: I don't see on my copy of the map an elevation of
20 1.300. That may reflect the quality of the photocopy or it may be perhaps
21 that it is a mistake for 1.003.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 1.003. 1.003, that's right, I
23 apologise.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It just appears below the "O" of Sarajevo, I take it,
25 where you find the word Barjak and then below that it is 1.003.
Page 15521
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. DP20, when you marked the front lines of the Hresa Battalion,
3 now that you have done that, can you tell us whether you know what the
4 line of the BH Army was, where it was with regard to the front line of
5 your battalion, did the BH Army have a front line?
6 A. Yes, it did.
7 Q. Do you personally know how far the demarcation line was from your
8 front line? What was the distance between the two armies?
9 A. Well, the distance wasn't regular. It was between 200 to 800
10 metres or 1.000 metres. It depended.
11 Q. On the basis of what you personally know and with regard to the
12 lines of your battalion, could you mark the BH Army lines?
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. Could you please mark those lines and could you mark them with a
15 black felt-tip and use a dotted line. Mark their positions with respect
16 to your positions on the line of the battalion.
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. Mr. DP20, for the sake of the transcript, you used the dotted line
19 to mark the front lines of the BH Army in relation to the front line of
20 your battalion, and to the extent that I was able to follow you. You have
21 marked this south of the word "Sarajevo" under elevation of 896 where it
22 says Zecja Glava, that's where the front line starts and it runs north, it
23 is the front line of the BH Army goes through the Emerovice and Hladivode
24 settlements and continues towards Barice.
25 Is what I have said correct? Is this what you have marked on the
Page 15522
1 map?
2 A. Yes. Zecja Glava, Emerovice, Alipasino Polje [as interpreted],
3 and then further on to the south of it, Barice.
4 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned Pasino Polje that that was a
5 position held by the BH Army.
6 Mr. DP20, can you tell us from when you were engaged as a member
7 of the 3rd or Hresa Battalion, you said from 1992 until when?
8 A. From 1992 until the end, until the Dayton Agreement was signed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we
10 have a transcript problem. May I have your leave? In line 23, I do not
11 think that the witness spoke of "Alipasino Polje." I understood something
12 else.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I say it?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think there is -- I as a matter of fact the
16 translation said something different as well.
17 When you referred to -- when you said something about "Polje," but
18 what Polje?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. It wasn't a Polje. It
20 was Pasino Brdo, rather than Alipasino Polje.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So, Mr. DP20, in the area of responsibility of your battalion, you
23 were there in 1992, 1993, and 1994?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us, who was the commander of your battalion?
Page 15523
1 A. Mr. President, may I address you?
2 Q. I apologise. Do you wish to say it in a closed session?
3 A. I would only wish to mention names in closed session, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, it would be appropriate for
6 there to be -- I withdraw that and start again. The name of a battalion
7 commander would not normally attract protective measures. In my
8 respectful submission, it should be given in open session unless there is
9 a particular reason for it which the witness could, of course, give in
10 closed session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is the name also in the testimony of the witness who
12 told us during the Prosecution's case -- it is not in there --
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...could you explain
15 in closed session first whether -- I mean, names as such where usually
16 mentioned unless there are specific reasons not to tell them. But let's
17 perhaps first turn into closed session in order to discuss whether the
18 name should be mentioned in open or in closed session.
19 [Closed session]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 15524
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please answer the question.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. DP20, could you please answer the questions to who was the
11 commander of the Hresa Battalion.
12 A. It was Milan Plakalovic.
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP20, do you personally, considering you marked
14 the front line of the Hresa Battalion, do you have any knowledges to what
15 weapons were used by the Hresa Battalion?
16 A. Yes, I do know.
17 Q. Could you tell us.
18 A. Basic weapons, since this was an infantry unit, these were
19 automatic rifles, M-70, there was also automatic rifles, there were also
20 machine-guns, light machine-guns -- 7.9 millimetres --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't catch every single
22 calibre.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is as far as the infantry
24 weapons are concerned.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think I heard after semi-automatic
Page 15525
1 rifles -- sorry -- in relation to automatic rifles, M-70, semi-automatic
2 76. The interpreter said that she was not able to catch all of the
3 calibres. Perhaps the answer could be given again and more slowly.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please ask the witness to repeat.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. DP20, could you please slowly list for us what infantry
7 weapons were in use by your battalion?
8 A. I will do your full answer.
9 Q. Slowly please.
10 A. Automatic rifles, M-70, there were semi-automatic rifles M-56 of
11 7.62-millimetre calibre, then I said light machine-guns M-72 machine-guns,
12 light machine-guns, M-53 of the 7.9 millimetre --
13 MR. IERACE: And the voice of the interpreter waned on two
14 occasions which I think caused some problems for the transcriber.
15 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some difficulties of the voice of
16 the interpreter very well, because also sometimes hear it at a very low
17 volume. So could you please repeat one by one that -- so we start with
18 the M-70, and M-70 was what kind of a rifle?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Automatic rifle, M-70.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and the next.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, semi-automatic rifle, M-56 of
22 7.62-millimetre calibre.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we now come to the next.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Machine-gun, light machine-gun 7.62
25 millimetres of the M-72 type.
Page 15526
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Machine-gun and light machine-guns,
3 7.9 millimeters, M-53. Machine-gun and semi-automatic machine-gun, 7.62
4 millimeters of the M-84 type. And not very many rifles of the M-48 type
5 were of the calibre 7.9 millimeters.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. DP20, what you personally were issued?
8 A. Automatic rifle, M-70.
9 Q. In the period from 1992, September 1992 until August 1994, how
10 strong was your battalion?
11 A. Well, that varied, the number of troops varied from 400 to 600,
12 something like that.
13 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to which units were on the BH Army
14 side in relation to the front line of your battalion?
15 A. In front of us was the 2nd Mountain Brigade of the BH Army. And
16 specifically in this area where I marked our positions, they had about two
17 of their battalions there.
18 Q. When you say "two of their battalions," can you tell us according
19 to the military rules, how strong is one battalion, how many troops?
20 A. That depends on the establishment of units. Each army has its own
21 establishment. As far as I know about the BH Army establishment, their
22 battalion would have over 1.000 people.
23 Q. You mean one battalion?
24 A. Yes, one battalion.
25 Q. As far as I understand, you say that opposite your battalion there
Page 15527
1 were two of their battalions?
2 A. Yes, two BH Army Battalions.
3 Q. For this period of time, do you have personal knowledge or whether
4 in that area of the front line of your battalion and the BH Army
5 Battalion, was there fighting?
6 A. Yes, on a daily basis, almost.
7 Q. Did you have personal knowledge which weapons were used by the
8 members of the BH Army Battalion with respect to your positions?
9 A. I can't tell you specifically for the battalion in front of us. I
10 can tell you in general, the BH Army what weapons they used. They used
11 the infantry weapons and the artillery weapons.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP20. When you say "from infantry weapons," can
13 you tell us from which positions from infantry weapons?
14 A. From the positions as I have marked them, more or less.
15 Q. Mr. DP20, you told us now that they also used artillery positions,
16 they fired from artillery positions?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Personally, do you have knowledge which positions they used, which
19 were the artillery positions used with respect to the positions of your
20 battalion?
21 A. They changed, the artillery positions. For instance, the mortars,
22 they fired from Sedrenik, from the locality of Vasin Han. The so-called
23 Babica Kuce, the Babica houses. From various positions, those in the
24 rear, end of the defence lines.
25 Q. Mr. DP20, do you have personal information as to whether there
Page 15528
1 were mortars in your battalion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know which types of mortars were used in your battalion?
4 A. Yes. We had 60-, 82-, and 120-millimetre mortars.
5 Q. Bearing in mind your background, education, and your occupation
6 before the conflict started and now, in your battalion that you belonged
7 to, were there other people, other persons who had -- who were
8 professional soldiers with a professional military background?
9 A. No, I was the only one.
10 Q. Mr. DP20, when you told us that in the area of your front line of
11 your battalion that there was fighting on a daily basis, can you tell us
12 how populated or how many populated locations were there, settlements, in
13 that area?
14 A. There were populated localities on our side. These settlements
15 that you can see on the map that I have marked, they were evacuated, there
16 was no civilian population there in those settlements right next to the
17 front line, to the first line of the front.
18 Q. When you say that there were no civilians next to the front line,
19 could you tell us what is the area or what was the area of responsibility
20 of your battalion in this region in terms of the depth?
21 A. Depth Glog elevation point, 1.406.
22 Q. When you tell us on the map Glog --
23 A. Yes, 1.406.
24 Q. Can you tell us how much is that in metres or kilometers?
25 A. As the crow flies, it would be about 20 kilometers.
Page 15529
1 Q. Can you tell us where were the soldiers of your battalion billeted
2 when they were on the front line?
3 A. They were stationed in trenches on the front line or they were in
4 the facilities for resting, either in the abandon houses right next to the
5 front line, or in some facilities that were made for that purpose.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for a clarification. What exactly is
7 20 kilometres? From where to where?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. 20 kilometers. I
9 didn't --
10 JUDGE ORIE: You mentioned Glog, and you mentioned the number
11 "1.406." Then the next question as it appears on our English transcript
12 is: "Can you tell us how much is that in metres or kilometres?" We had a
13 point at that time and not a distance. So could you please tell us
14 what -- perhaps, first, Ms. Pilipovic clarify the question.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
16 Q. We spoke about elevation point 1.406, and we are talk about the
17 depth of the area of responsibility of your battalion. And I told you
18 about the -- I asked you about the depth of the area, of your area of
19 responsibility, of your battalion.
20 A. That was 2 to 3 kilometers. I think about 2.600 metres, I
21 believe.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. DP20, in the period September 1992 until August 1994, you told
25 us that there was fighting on almost a daily basis, I believe that is what
Page 15530
1 you said. Can you tell us: On the front line where you say there were
2 trenches and the houses where the troops were billeted, was there damage
3 on the houses near the front line?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you tell us more about the damages.
6 A. There was damage from bullets, but there was also some
7 larger-scale damage from artillery weapons.
8 Q. Mr. DP20, do you personally have knowledge whether in the period
9 from September 1992 until August 1994, were there any periods when there
10 was more intense combat, when there was some offensive operations?
11 A. Yes, on several occasions.
12 Q. When you say "on several occasions," can you tell us which side in
13 the conflict launched offensive operations?
14 A. BH Army.
15 Q. Can you tell us from personal experience about some periods that
16 you know about when offensive operations took place? We are speaking from
17 September 1992 until August 1994.
18 A. In mid-December 1992 there was an intensive attack, as the
19 soldiers say, on the right flank -- right wing of the battalion, from the
20 direction of Zecja Glava, Barica towards Barjak. On that occasion, they
21 managed to take three or four trenches. After that -- that was returned,
22 and we established the line again as it had been.
23 Further on, very often, I can't tell you precisely about the
24 dates, but very often there were attacks in the direction of Zecja Glava
25 and particularly towards the locality of Barica and towards the locality
Page 15531
1 of Mrkovici. Because there the main road going through Mrkojevici, and
2 this main road was built after the conflict started and that was the only
3 link for the Ilidza, Vogosca, and Ilijas locality with the rest of
4 Republika Srpska. So we thought -- we assumed that their aim was to cut
5 this communication.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind that
7 we have some documents that are in English, my co-counsel will ask the
8 witness some questions and continue with the examination.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
11 Mr. President.
12 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. With the assistance of
14 the usher, I would like you to have a look at a document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please assist, Mr. Usher.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not sure about the number
17 that should follow, Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The next number is D1790.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, so there is no
20 confusion, on these documents we have numbers that we have put on our
21 exhibit list the Defence submitted. So the numbers marked are those on
22 the exhibit list.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We
24 started with an exhibit that will be, therefore, 29. Could you please
25 distribute these exhibits to all parties.
Page 15532
1 THE REGISTRAR: Is this an exhibit that has previously been
2 tendered and admitted?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's what I will check. I
4 think it's 24. It's my mistake.
5 THE REGISTRAR: So it is D24?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will check. Very well.
7 Ms. Pilipovic will tell you exactly what's what.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 1724.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, since everyone has this document now, do you manage to
11 read English or can you read English?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if on 24th of July and at the end of
14 July 1993, there was considerable fighting in the area lato sensu --
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the leading.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you not lead the
17 witness in the way you did.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness, do you remember July 1993?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember the end of the month of July 1993?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Witness, do you remember whether at the end of July 1993 something
24 specific happened in terms of fighting?
25 A. Yes. There was still the summer offensive was still underway, the
Page 15533
1 so-called summer offensive.
2 Q. Very well.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I suggest
4 that we do, considering that the witness cannot read English, is that I
5 read the first paragraph of what we see under "A," and then I can ask him
6 questions. Do I have your leave to do that?
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: On the basis, Mr. Ierace?
9 MR. IERACE: That --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Because it would lead the witness?
11 MR. IERACE: Yes, quite demonstrably lead the witness.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
13 Perhaps you could read the text yourselves and I will ask questions which
14 are not leading afterwards.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want the witness to -- do you want to confront
16 the witness what is written here or what is your -- do you want to know
17 from him whether this is correct or not correct or -- I mean, what is
18 the --
19 MR. IERACE: In the absence of the witness --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we would perhaps ask the witness to leave for
21 one second.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We
25 sometimes have problems with these documents.
Page 15534
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask you, are you seeking confirmation of
2 the witness that it is correct or that you think it is not correct? What
3 is your case in this respect?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No. No, we don't want
5 the witness to say that this is correct. That is not what we are trying
6 to obtain. What I would like is that after one has become familiar with
7 these facts, I would like the witness to tell us whether it is not true to
8 say that there was even more intense fighting. There are two things we
9 can do: The importance of the -- the level of the fighting at the time
10 and then we could relate to the credibility of the witness, and then also
11 to see whether it is just a partial reflection of reality. But this seems
12 to shock the Prosecution.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't see there is any shock. What we see here is
14 a report of the military activity. Do you want the witness to say that it
15 was -- I mean, if you want to confront the witness with this, you
16 certainly seek -- and it is not quite clear to me what you seek to achieve
17 by putting this to the witness --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that I
19 was clear. There are two things that I want: First of all, to see that
20 there were not more -- there wasn't more fighting; and secondly, there was
21 more fighting than what the UN forces wanted to note, and especially
22 regarding the shells that fell in the Serbian part. And at the same time,
23 we could, if we can do so, we can show many things with regard to prior
24 testimony when it was said that there was no fighting in the zone of
25 Sedrenik, et cetera.
Page 15535
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You want to establish the level of fighting and
2 that this is not entirely correct or not correct at all.
3 Mr. Ierace.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps my colleague could remind me,
5 is this a Prosecution exhibit, this particular entry that he wishes to
6 challenge? Is it already an exhibit before the Trial Chamber?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not sure that this is a
8 document that has been filed by the Prosecution. But in order to remind
9 Mr. Ierace to refresh his memory, this is not something that I can do. If
10 it is a Prosecution document, Mr. Ierace, you should know that better than
11 I do.
12 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we --
14 MR. IERACE: -- my point is this, if the Defence says this is not
15 already in evidence, I fail to understand why they seek to challenge it.
16 What is the relevance of challenging an account which is not in evidence
17 before the Trial Chamber?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there are two
19 things that one must distinguish. We are not contesting the document.
20 The document exists, and we are presenting it. What we want to contest is
21 certain parts of the contents. I don't think we should confuse matters,
22 the document and the contents.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber deems that it would be
25 appropriate first to put the questions to the witness before confronting
Page 15536
1 him with the document as such.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is a second part to my
3 objection. The passage refers to -- I take it the relevant part of the
4 passage that my friend is interested in refers to an attack by SRK
5 forces --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
7 remind you of the two lines rule. I have to interrupt you at this point.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. IERACE: It seems that --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Your objection started as two lines. Could you as
11 brief as possible, Mr. Ierace, indicate --
12 MR. IERACE: Yes. The three locations indicated in the first
13 paragraph opposite the front line indicated by this witness. So where is
14 the basis for this witness to give such an opinion.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for someone who
17 deals with military facts, we know that there were trajectories for shells
18 and we know that some can go astray and we know the distance if someone
19 can read the map between Kobilja Glava and Sedrenik which was one of the
20 incidents of the 24th of July, 1993. We know that this is a fairly weak
21 distance in terms of artillery. It may be fine if you go on foot, but the
22 artillery is not great.
23 So I think it is the Defence's right to try and prove that some of
24 the Prosecutions witnesses who allegedly didn't hear anything, to try and
25 prove that they lied. Because we can see that there were at least 3.000
Page 15537
1 shells that got lost in nature. So this is an obvious manifest lie, and
2 we hope that we can prove this.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You may start asking questions to the witness in
4 respect of it, but not immediately confront him with the document. So you
5 should ask leave, when the point has come to confront him with that.
6 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
7 MR. IERACE: While he is coming in, Mr. President, it would be
8 entirely inappropriate for the Defence to contend that a Prosecution
9 witness has lied when that has not been fairly put to the Prosecution
10 witness
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's refrain from words like "lies,"
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. When you say it is the Defence case that is not in
13 accordance with the truth, that would certainly do. As I sometimes said
14 before, strong words do not necessarily make strong arguments.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly. Mr. President,
17 given the need for time for the translation, I will ask a few brief
18 questions.
19 Q. Witness, the first question, you are a professional, a military
20 professional. You fought in the war. In general, could you provide us
21 with general answers regarding the general events during the war, yes or
22 no?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I am now speaking about the noise
25 an explosion makes. When a shell, an explosive shell falls and explodes,
Page 15538
1 does this produce a loud noise or a not very loud noise?
2 A. It depends on the calibre of the shell. So it depends on whether
3 it was a large or small calibre, but it is a shrill sound.
4 Q. Let's talk about large calibre shells. Can this be heard only
5 slightly or can it be heard very well? Is the noise a loud one, the noise
6 of the explosion?
7 A. It is a loud noise.
8 Q. Thank you very much. When you hear this explosion, can it also be
9 heard far away or only in the vicinity of where the shell fell?
10 A. Well, that also depends on the calibre of the shells. Some can be
11 heard further away and others can't be heard that far away.
12 Q. I am not talking about just about mortar shells, I am talking
13 about shells in general. These could be tank shells, mortar shells, et
14 cetera. Thank you.
15 Witness, I would like to go back to the issue of the summer
16 campaign in 1993. You said it was the summer campaign. You said that a
17 large-scale offensive had been launched. Was this -- did this offensive
18 use artillery? Was artillery used in this offensive, yes or no?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. The means used by the artillery were these means used
21 on both sides, by both sides to the north or north-east of Sarajevo?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you, Witness.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we
25 have covered the basic questions now. Given the time, I don't think it
Page 15539
1 would be useful to carry on now, but I will continue to ask questions
2 about this document later.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But would you think that the moment, apart from
4 that we might have a break, that the moment might be there to start
5 showing the document to the witness?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, he doesn't understand
7 English, Mr. President, and I don't think it would be very useful to do it
8 now.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from -- okay. We will --
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's coming to the point where we will adjourn.
12 Mr. DP20, tomorrow we will not continue with your examination
13 because the Chamber has to do another thing tomorrow. Only after we
14 finish that, we will continue to hear -- to examine you -- not "we" but
15 the parties will continue to examine you as a witness.
16 Do we have any idea, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how much time that would
17 approximately take? Do you think that we would finish in one day and a
18 half or one day or...
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is obvious
20 and I can't say anything else, experience today has shown this. We were
21 very quick with the fist witness. But I don't think that the speed of the
22 proceedings depends on me this time, so there is nothing that I can say.
23 There is nothing I can say and there is nothing that I want to say.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The -- I can't give you no indication because it is
25 not the Chamber which ask in ultimate control on how quick we will deal
Page 15540
1 with the matter we have to deal with. But I take it perhaps not tomorrow
2 but the day after tomorrow that we will continue to examine you. The
3 victims and witness unit will take care that you are standby, so you
4 should make yourself available. And we hope to see you again as soon as
5 possible, but not tomorrow morning at 9.00.
6 Tomorrow -- yes. Tomorrow morning at 9.00 we will start with the
7 videolink which has been put in place and we have to deal with that first
8 because this requires the technical facilities. So we will adjourn --
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before you --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace was the first --
11 MR. IERACE: I am happy for Mr. Piletta-Zanin to speak first.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, as I said,
13 I only need one minute to mention certain translation issues. We will
14 save time if I do that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace --
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would ask that the Defence be
17 required to provide us with the dates of birth, addresses, and father's
18 names and company positions, if appropriate, by a particular date. We
19 only have five dates of birth left or thereabouts, and we do need a
20 reasonable period of time to complete our inquiries before the witness is
21 called. The date of birth and the father's name and so on assists us in
22 that regard
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to inform my colleagues
25 that the Defence is working on this and I expect this will take place
Page 15541
1 tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow at the latest this submission will be
2 filed, because my learned colleague mentioned this last week.
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I then ask you, Mr. Usher, to escorts the witness
4 out of the courtroom so we give an opportunity to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to
5 deal with the translation issues.
6 May I -- could you please -- you are not allowed to speak with
7 anyone about the testimony you give in this court and you have given in
8 this courts. So you have to refrain from any conversations with whomever
9 about the testimony that you are giving. Yes. Then, Mr. Usher, could you
10 please -- yes.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please escort the witness out of the courtroom.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, very
16 briefly, page 11 line 12, one sentence wasn't translated in the French
17 transcript. Likewise, page 15 line 10 where mention is made of rape and
18 slaughter. Page 17 and 18, this concerns the English transcript now, the
19 witness was more precise and he spoke about shells raining down on the
20 Serb lines, that is what he literally said. Page 24 line 8, the English
21 and French transcript don't correspond to each other. 29, 25, translation
22 omission. 26, 23, mistranslation, no one gave instructions, orders
23 concerning the warehouse. It concerned guarding and not giving orders.
24 16, 14, line 4, large-scale destruction. This notion wasn't entered --
25 this idea wasn't entered into the French transcript. Thank you very much.
Page 15542
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your assistance, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, and we will then
3 continue with the videolink.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
5 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
6 the 12th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
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