1 Tuesday, 12 November 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom. Today we'll
10 start with the videolink testimony. And I was informed that we have a
11 good connection with Sarajevo.
12 The Defence calls as its next witness Velimir Radojevic, if I
13 understand you well?
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojevic, you hear me in a language you
16 understand? I cannot hear your answer. I now --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now also can hear you, Mr. Radojevic. Can
19 you also see us on your screen?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see you. I can see you
21 on the screen.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojevic, before giving testimony before the
23 Tribunal, before this Chamber, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require
24 you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole
25 truth and nothing but the truth. The text will be handed out to you now
1 by the representative of the Registry. May I invite you to make that
2 solemn declaration. Please, stand up.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please, be seated.
6 Mr. Radojevic, you will first be examined by counsel for the
7 Defence, Ms. Pilipovic, or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 WITNESS: VELIMIR RADOJEVIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 [Witness testified via videolink]
12 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radojevic.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. Mr. Radojevic, we would first of all like you to introduce
16 yourself. Could you tell us where you lived in 1992?
17 A. In 1992 I lived in part of Sarajevo in Blazuj in the municipality
18 of Ilidza. I worked for the power lines. It was a company, a power line
19 company --
20 Q. Just a minute, Mr. Radojevic. Could you please speak slowly
21 because the interpreter has to interpret what you are saying.
22 Could you just tell us briefly, you lived in part of Sarajevo in
23 the municipality of Ilidza?
24 A. The Blazuj settlement, the Blazuj neighbourhood.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I assumed that this was Mr. Radojevic.
2 It is not yet his testimony. Perhaps we should do that right at the
3 beginning that you ask for this personal details. Please proceed.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Radojevic, could you first of all tell us when you were born
6 and where you were born?
7 A. I was born on the 13th of October, 1949 in Bilcici, the
8 municipality of Rogatica in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radojevic.
10 Mr. Radojevic, can you tell us your father's name?
11 A. Milos.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radojevic, you told us that you lived in the
13 municipality of Ilidza. Since when have you lived in that municipality?
14 Since when have you lived in Sarajevo?
15 A. Since 1974 right up until the Dayton Agreement in 1995.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radojevic, you told us that you worked for
17 Energoinvest company?
18 A. Yes, it is the long distance power line company. It's the company
19 for constructing such long distance power lines in Blazuj.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radojevic, can you tell us what you are by
22 A. I am a qualified locksmith.
23 Q. In 1992, what sort of work and work tasks did you have to carry
24 out in your company?
25 A. I was a brigadier in the group for installing the long distance
1 power lines and for installing of vertical transport systems and ski
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radojevic, in 1992, we will be talking about
4 September of 1992, were you employed in the company you mentioned?
5 A. No. I was in Elektroprenos in the Ilidza branch. That's where I
6 was employed.
7 Q. Mr. Radojevic, when you said that you had work obligations to
8 carry out there, can you tell us which organ obliged you, so to speak, to
9 carry out these duties?
10 A. It was the Municipal Assembly or the president of the municipality
11 of Ilidza who made me do this, who gave me this obligation because I was
12 the only person in that area, the only Serbian who was qualified to carry
13 out that work. And my task was to form a group to maintain the long
14 distance power lines.
15 Q. Thank you. Before you go into the details about the forming of
16 this team, what was the reason for forming the team? Can you tell us
17 whether you had any duties in the Army of Republika Srpska?
18 A. No, I didn't. I didn't.
19 Q. Thank you. When you told us that you formed a commission, can you
20 tell us at what level this commission was formed?
21 A. Not a commission, a team for maintaining the long distance power
22 line, I think that's what I said.
23 Q. Thank you. At what level was that team formed?
24 A. I found three men who worked with me; one was from Hadzici, one
25 from Blazuj -- two were from Blazuj. After that, in June, a colleague
1 from Zenica came and he joined us and a fourth colleague or rather a fifth
2 colleague who was also from Hadzici and worked with us before the war.
3 These men helped with the installation.
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radojevic, the team that was formed, what duties
5 did that team have?
6 A. My team's duties were to repair, carry out all repairs of the long
7 distance power line in the area of the so-called Sarajevsko Romanijski
8 Plateau. That's where there would be faults because of the conflict.
9 That's where the system would break down, because of the conflicts.
10 Q. When you said that you had to repair the long distance power line
11 in the Sarajevsko Romanijski plateau, could you tell us, before the
13 broke out, before the war broke out in the area of the town of Sarajevo,
14 how was the town of Sarajevo supplied with electricity? Where were their
15 long distance power lines for supplying the town of Sarajevo with
17 A. Well, I don't know whether I will put this in the correct
18 chronological order, but it goes from the power station Jablanica, through
19 the Blazuj electricity station and then from the power plant Piva through
20 the electricity station in Lukavica and Reljevo and then through the
21 Reljevo station from the direction of Mostar, there was Ilidza and from
22 the direction of Tuzla and the Vogosca electricity station which received
23 electricity from the Visegrad power station. These electricity stations
24 were at the periphery of the town. They were 400 watts strong, 110 and
25 35. These were electricity stations from which the electricity went into
1 the town of Sarajevo.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radojevic, could you please speak slowly.
3 A. Yes, I will.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask the -- there seems to be a microphone
5 switched on somewhere. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Radojevic, when you said that you were in a team which carried
8 out repairs on the long distance power line, repairs which were required
9 and repairs which were carried out during the war, can you tell us in
10 which part of the Sarajevo Romanija plateau, as you call it, in which part
11 of this plateau would there be repairs as a result of the war?
12 A. The most frequent faults happened in the Kljuc area between
13 Rogatica and Reljevo. Then in part of Vogosca which is between Kiseljak
14 and Reljevo and Blazuj. That is the long distance power line from Kakanj
15 to Reljevo and there was faults in part of Zenica. In the direction of
16 Visegrad and Rudo the columns would be destroyed. The electricity would
17 go towards Serbia so that the Visegrad power plant could work there.
18 Q. Mr. Radojevic, when you went to carry out repairs you have
19 mentioned locations. On that occasion did you go with your team alone or
20 was it necessary for you to be escorted?
21 A. We also went with an UNPROFOR escort and a day or two before we
22 would go to the site where there were faults, we would agree on a certain
23 site that UNPROFOR would designate. We would agree that a colleague from
24 the Muslim side and I should agree how to enter the site and how to carry
25 out the repairs there, how to carry out the repairs of the fault on the
1 long distance power line.
2 Q. Witness, you have now answered -- you have now said that you went
3 to carry out repairs with an UNPROFOR escort and after having consulted a
4 colleague on the Muslim side. Have I understood your answer?
5 A. Yes. Yes. But in the area of the town of Sarajevo, but to carry
6 out repairs outside the town in Visegrad, in the direction of Visegrad, I
7 would go there on my own with my team.
8 Q. So if I have understood you correctly, all the repairs that were
9 carried out in the town of Sarajevo, whenever you went to carry out these
10 repairs, a mixed team, so to speak, went. You would go with UNPROFOR
11 escort. Have I understood you correctly?
12 A. Yes, you have understood me correctly.
13 Q. Thank you. When a mixed team would go to these sites to carry out
14 repairs, are you telling us that you also went to the part of the town of
15 Sarajevo which was under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska and
16 the part of the city of Sarajevo which was under the control of the BH
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Leading question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection --
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that that was
22 the witness's answer.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... both areas,
24 under control of both parties, that's how I understand the question.
25 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Radojevic, when you went to carry out repairs on the site on
3 the part that was under the control of the BH Army, you will first answer
4 this part of the question: Can you tell us which areas were most exposed
5 to faults, where were the most faults?
6 A. It was in the area of Zuc Toka Donji [phoen] and the area behind
7 the Zrak factory. These two sites. I went to those two sites with a
8 colleague of mine when repairs had to be carried out because the BH Army
9 thought that Republika Srpska Army would shell that area when they were --
10 when repairs were being carried out. But that didn't happen. We managed
11 to repair that line successfully. And I was even congratulated by the
12 local population after having carried out the repairs.
13 Q. Sir, when you say that many repairs had to be carried out in the
14 area of Zuc and the Zrak factory, can you tell us how often you would go
15 to those areas to carry out repairs?
16 A. Each time an offensive was launched in the Zuc area, there would
17 be faults because the long distance power station which supplied the
18 transformer station from Reljevo and the transformer station from Zuc and
19 Potok and the transformer station in Zuc and Reljevo they were between the
20 firing lines. And whenever there was a fighting the lines would be broken
21 and we would have to go and carry out the repairs. But as far as the town
22 is concerned, I was in the centre of the town twice. In Buca and Potok on
23 both occasions. That's behind Zrak factory and in Mali Zuc that's what it
24 is called over there.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radojevic, when you went to carry out these
1 repairs, were UNPROFOR members with you on each occasion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us, and I am talking about the period September 1992
4 and August 1994, about that period, from September 1992 to August 1994,
5 when during this period, if you can tell us this on the basis of your
6 personal knowledge, when were the repairs that you carried out actually
7 carried out? Can you tell us when this happened?
8 A. I don't have any notes -- I don't have the notes that I had with
9 me. I can't tell you exactly, but there were faults so frequently during
10 that period because there were offensives, there was shooting. And we
11 would repair the power line on one day and the following day there would
12 no longer be any electricity. In the part under the control of the
13 Republika Srpska or under the control of the BH Army didn't have
14 electricity either.
15 Q. [No translation]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We do not receive any English translation. Is this
17 problem solved? Could you please speak some words in B/C/S,
18 Ms. Pilipovic, so that we can see whether we receive a translation.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Radojevic, you hear me?
21 A. I can hear you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. My question was, when you went to carry out repairs, and now we
25 are speaking about the repairs that you carried out in the part of the
1 city controlled under the BH Army. When a pylon on Zuc was damaged and
2 when you went to carry out repairs, what parts of the city would be
3 without electricity?
4 A. If there was damage on any part of pylon that goes around over Zuc
5 or whether it's Vogosca, Velesici, Reljevo, or Buca Potok the entire city
6 would be without electricity because in the period of war, the close
7 centre of Sarajevo would get electricity from these two directions, from
8 Reljevo towards Buca Potok and Velesici so if there was any breakdown in
9 the pylon connection, then the Buca Potok transformer station wouldn't get
10 any power either, and I would then have to list any other locations that
11 would be in the area under the control of the Republika Srpska Army.
12 Q. So if I have understood you correctly, when damage occurred on the
13 long distance power line in Buca or in the area of the Zrak factory or in
14 the area of Buca Potok, then parts of the city under the control of the BH
15 Army would have no electricity as well as the parts of the city under the
16 control of the Republika Srpska Army?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. Sir, could you tell us just from based on your personal experience
19 during this period, how many days or how many hours during a month or a
20 year that parts of the city would have no electricity supply? Do you
21 think you could answer that in general?
22 A. I can't -- I can just tell you in general. In 1993, but I am not
23 quite sure, parts of the city of Sarajevo, close city centre, including
24 the part of the Serb Sarajevo didn't have electricity for three months.
25 The reason was the breakdown on the long distance power line between
1 Visegrad, Kakanj and Reljevo. Because there was a long distance line
2 between Kakanj and Reljevo that was broken.
3 Q. Sir, when you told us that there was a period where for three
4 months there was no electricity supplied in the parts of the city also
5 under the control of the BH Army and under the control of the Republika
6 Srpska Army, can you tell us, what were the parts of town during those
7 three months that you mentioned had no electricity?
8 A. Well, according to me, the entire -- in my opinion, the entire
9 city of Sarajevo. When we repaired Visegrad, Vogosca lines, we managed to
10 get supply for Vogosca. So two or three days later there was shelling so
11 the pylon fell again. And practically for three months literally nobody
12 had electricity, although we did make an effort to get electricity supply
13 as much as we could for the parts of Sarajevo that we were able to get
14 electricity supply for.
15 Q. Sir, now that you have told us the entire city of Sarajevo had no
16 electricity supply, are you saying to us that also the part of the city
17 under the control of the BH Army as well as the part of the city under the
18 Republika Srpska Army, had no electricity for three months; is that how I
19 should understand your answer?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In the period of time which is relevant for us, that is from
22 September 1992 until August 1994, can you tell us approximately when
23 between in this period were these three months? Was this in 1993 or was
24 this from 1992, September 1992, when the entire city of Sarajevo had no
25 electricity supply?
1 A. I am not sure, but I think that that was in 1993, but I can't tell
2 you for sure because I don't have my agenda or notes because I didn't
3 expect you to ask me this question. UNPROFOR has all the records when
4 things happened and when things were repaired, et cetera.
5 Q. Sir, you have now explained to us how during the period of war,
6 how this mixed team functioned with UNPROFOR escort, and how they carried
7 out repairs to electricity equipment in certain parts of town. Did I
8 understand you correctly, that mixed teams went out to carry out repairs
9 also in those parts of town that were under the control of the Republika
10 Srpska Army?
11 A. All our missions with UNPROFOR in mixed teams that we carried out,
12 we carried out in the territory under the control of the Republika Srpska
13 as well as under the control of the BH Army, although never did it happen
14 that entire teams went to the parts of the town controlled by the BH Army.
15 But I went with a colleague of mine from Sarajevo. I waited at the
16 checkpoint in Reljevo and then we would go from Reljevo to Zuc or to Golo
17 Brdo or from the direction of Vogosca, Vogosca, depending on where the
18 damage was, and depending on which road we had to take. In that, we had
19 to have the agreement of local commanders and they didn't cause any
20 trouble, as far as the entering the area that needed to be repaired.
21 Q. When you tell us that you got agreement -- you got guarantees from
22 local commanders, can you tell us and can you answer, was it always the
23 case that you got guarantees from local commanders on the Muslim side and
24 on the Serb side when you carried out repairs?
25 A. I ensured this to be acquired from local Serb commanders, where my
1 colleagues --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the names.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Got them from Muslim commander.
4 When we got in the direction of Vogosca, one of the workers from the
5 Muslim teams would be on the Muslim line with a radio station. He would
6 be in connection with me. And he would then say, you can go, everything
7 has been agreed, no problem. This is how we went across one set of
8 trenches and other set of trenches and this is how we carried out repairs
9 on both sides.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Sir, can you answer, in which way the UNPROFOR members were
12 informed, and did they also need a guarantee to be escorting you on these
14 A. As far as I know, UNPROFOR had an engineering unit which was
15 located in the PTT engineering. And their task was to provide workers to
16 carry out repairs to pylons, long distance power lines and so on. And for
17 all the damage in the city, this was done by the French Army and they
18 needed through the connection with the Serb and the Muslim side, then they
19 would agree that there should be no fire. And then we would go out with
20 them to the scene, and they were, for us, this military guarantee. They
21 guaranteed safety for us.
22 Q. Sir, can you tell us in every situation when you went to carry out
23 repairs as part of the mixed team escorted by UNPROFOR, were you always
24 able to carry out repairs in security, in safety?
25 A. No, we were not. On one occasion in the Golo Brdo area, we went
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 with the French Battalion by Reljevo line, we got to the Serb Army lines.
2 We were told there was no problem, you can work. We went into the area of
3 repair or area of the damage. These were lines where the demarcation
4 lines were 100 metres, one from each other. When we got in and when the
5 mixed team got in, when the French soldiers got in, then fire was opened
6 from the Muslim side. Perhaps somebody who didn't know that the repairs
7 were going to be done, firing started. There was shooting. And for about
8 an hour and a half, we were literally between two fires, both us and the
9 French soldiers. And one of the French soldiers was wounded and then we
10 went to one or two days later, and everything was fine.
11 Q. Sir, when you told us about this incident which took place with
12 the presence of UNPROFOR, can you tell us, when did this take place?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you answer me the question, when was this?
15 A. I can't remember the date because I told you, I didn't bring
16 anything with me as far as the notes were concerned. I didn't know I
17 would be able to. So I wouldn't be able to tell you all the exact dates.
18 Q. Can you tell us which year that was?
19 A. I think that was in 1993. I remember that was Major Roquitat
20 [phoen] who led the French.
21 Q. If I understand you correctly you said a name of the French major
22 who escorted this mission?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you please tell us -- repeat the name?
25 A. I think it was a major, that was his rank, and his name was
1 Roquitat, I think.
2 Q. Thank you. When you tell us about the interventions that came as
3 a consequence of war operations, you told us that some of the demarcation
4 lines were only 100 metres away from each other. Can you tell us, for all
5 the areas that you went to where were the damages? When I say "where"
6 were they in the vicinity of the demarcation lines, or were they in
7 certain areas outside of the area of demarcation lines?
8 A. In most cases, damages occurred between demarcation lines,
9 sometimes behind lines. If there was a pylon there, so maybe a shrapnel
10 or a bullet would cut the cable, and that's how then there would be the
12 Q. Sir, can you explain, can you answer, is it possible that in some
13 parts of the city there would be electricity, and that in other parts of
14 the city, there would be no electricity supply?
15 A. Yes. That was not nothing to do with us. If all the damage -- if
16 all the damage was repaired and in the Buca Potok and Velesici got their
17 electricity supply, and everything depended of electricity supply of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina to distribute it as it should be distributed to the
19 users. Because during the war, most of the time there was electricity
20 supply for the entire city of Sarajevo including both parts, the Muslim
21 and the Serb. There was 60 to 65 megawatts, that was a minimum to get
22 electricity from the entire city for all the users to have electricity
23 supply normally.
24 Q. So you are telling us that that would be a reason why in certain
25 parts of the city there would be electricity supply and some other parts
1 there would be no electricity supply because of very poor voltage?
2 A. Yes, that would be because of that. But of course the electricity
3 would be given to -- as we all know, it would be distributed to what was
4 considered to be priorities.
5 Q. When you told us that it was normal to get electricity supply to
6 priorities, could you tell us, how was it possible to provide electricity
7 for the so-called priorities? Is that possible and how?
8 A. It is possible because in every equipment, in every transformer
9 station, they have switches and all different kinds of equipment and
10 switches. And through them, you get electricity supply to the pylon, to
11 the long distance line, that would get a supply for a certain area. And
12 then there we be all go to a distributor transformer station which in the
13 same way they would then distribute the electricity supply for one area or
14 another area and so on. Again, there was a system of switches, again.
15 Q. Sir, now that you have explained to us that there would be --
16 there would be electricity provided for the so-called priorities, can you
17 tell us, in war, who had the right, if you know, to decide on priorities?
18 A. I don't know who had the right, but I think humane right would be
19 for priority to go to hospitals, that they would get electricity supply.
20 And I don't know about the rest.
21 Q. Do you personally have any knowledge that in the part of the city
22 that was under the control of the BH Army, and the BH Army was able to
23 provide or to decide on priorities for parts of the units that were
24 included in the BH Army?
25 A. I have no information, but --
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. It is a leading
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is a leading question, Ms. Pilipovic, so would
4 you please reformulate the question. And keep in mind the answers--
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... with the witness
7 saying he has no information. So if it would come to speculation, then it
8 might not assist the Chamber. Please proceed.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
10 Q. Sir, you told us with respect to priorities -- can you hear me?
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 Q. You said that you had no information as to who was able to supply
13 electricity for the so-called priorities. Did you ever, and when, did you
14 have any information as to parts of the city under the control of either
15 side, of either army, that the question of priorities was under the
16 control of the army? Do you have any such knowledge or information?
17 A. I have no such knowledge. But at that time anybody could have
18 come with weapons and say to the duty electrician in the transformer
19 station, "switch this on." And even if that didn't happen, any commander
20 could have asked for their own unit to have electricity supplied. This
21 was possible, but I have no knowledge or information that this did happen.
22 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you were telling us about the control, about
23 the repairs to electricity equipment in the city of Sarajevo, can you tell
24 us whether when electricity was cut in certain parts of town, could that
25 then cause that the water supply is cut? Is the electricity supply and
1 water supply connected somehow? Do you have any such information?
2 A. I can explain as much as I know. For instance, Bacevo source at
3 the Vrelo Bosne it cannot work without the electricity, because this
4 source is on a flat land, and from that source, you cannot get water to go
5 to the -- through the pump to the users. Also, in another location,
6 you -- also in Tilava you also need a pump, and in other parts of the city
7 of Sarajevo, for instance, towards Mount Jahorina I have no information,
8 so I can't give you any information. But for these two sources that I
9 mentioned, you can't even get water supply to Ilidza, or they are actually
10 located in Ilidza because it is a flat land so they can't work without
12 Q. Did I understand you correctly, the source Bacevo in the Ilidza
13 municipality cannot supply water for Ilidza municipality without
15 A. It cannot because pumps cannot work that send water on to the
16 users, to the consumers.
17 Q. Sir, can you personally tell us whether there were periods of time
18 from 1992, from September 1992 until August 1994, when there was no
19 electricity in certain parts of town as a result of no electricity, and
20 therefore, Bacevo source couldn't work?
21 A. That's correct. Yes, electricity, there would be no electricity
22 in Ilidza and in Blazuj and then there would be no water -- because there
23 was no water because there was no electricity.
24 Q. When you tell us there was no water in Ilidza, can you tell us
25 were these certain periods of time when there was no water and how long
1 would this go on for?
2 A. I cannot tell you because water supply wasn't my area and I don't
3 know for sure. But I think I had -- they had generators and they were
4 able to use generators. But I can't tell you for sure because I was
5 really -- my area of expertise were pylons to get them back up and to get
6 the long distance power lines working, to get the electricity supply.
7 Q. When Bacevo source did not work, when you said there was no
8 electricity, Bacevo source couldn't work and there would be no water in
9 Ilidza, can you tell us whether at that time in certain parts of town of
10 Sarajevo under the control of the BH Army there was no water as well?
11 A. That's true. They didn't have water, but there were parts, as far
12 as I know, as far as I can say, from those sources that came from the
13 sources where there was a free fall of water. I am not quite sure which
14 ones they are. But it can be from Bascarsija and those from Jagomir and
15 so on.
16 Q. When you tell us there was sources in Bascarsija and Jagomir, can
17 you tell us these sources, in your opinion, through which it was possible
18 to get water supply into the city, under whose control were they?
19 A. I think they were under the control of the BH Army. I don't know
20 what exactly the source is called over there behind but I guess it doesn't
22 Q. When you answered in the question with respect to the causes for
23 lack of electricity in parts of Sarajevo and certain parts in the entire
24 city of Sarajevo and for the shortage of water in conditions of war which
25 were then prevalent, was it possible for one of the sides -- and here we
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 mean the side which had under its control part of the Sarajevo -- one part
2 that was under the control of the Republika Srpska and one under the BH
3 Army, was it possible for them to influence the distribution of
4 electricity and water in the city? Do you know about electricity?
5 A. They were not able to influence because if we would switch on the
6 electricity in any transformer station in the city, that was done by day
7 dispatchers and that was done by their people in the transformer stations.
8 We were not able to influence how they would distribute their electricity
9 because that was -- that was their area. That was their business.
10 Q. Can you tell us whether in Sarajevo, that is, in the entire city
11 of Sarajevo on both sides, would electricity be cut, there would be no
12 electricity because both sides switched electricity supply off?
13 A. No. The only reason this happened is because of the damage of the
14 breakdown of the faults on the pylons, on the long distance power lines
15 Q. Sir, in the period from September 1992 until August 1994, did you
16 at any time give certain statements to the media regarding the damage, the
17 cause of the damage, and the electricity shortage?
18 A. Yes, I did. I gave a statement following my wounding in Zuc. I
19 gave a statement after we repaired the pylon in Vogosca. I think that was
20 in 1994, either in June or July. I can't remember now.
21 Q. Can you tell us, what is the period we are talking about in 1992,
22 1993, when you gave this interview?
23 A. I can't tell you for sure, but I can explain how this happened.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, I understand that you would like
2 to play the videotape. I am informed that the quality of the view in
3 Sarajevo might be less than it is here. But let's try and see what
4 happens. Perhaps you specifically ask the witness whether the picture on
5 the screen is clear enough to answer your questions.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. Pilipovic, may I please have the exhibit
7 number of the tape and which is the corresponding transcript, please?
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D348/8. D348/8.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
10 [Videotape played]
11 The Serbian Sarajevo zone is once again without electric power.
12 Can you tell us what are the problems involved? There was no
13 Military activities in this area.
14 I have to say that there was a problem. I have been wounded when
15 I went out with the crew to repair the high tension power line
16 Reljevo-Buca Potok.
17 We went there regularly accompanied by UNPROFOR and met the Muslim
18 Side repair crew, to agree on how the work is to be done. As I
19 Was taking my men to the power line, a grenade exploded. I really
20 Don't know what type it was, but it fell about three or four
21 Metres away from me. I was wounded in my lower legs. The
22 Following day, my team went out to repair that line. It was a
23 Mixed team, naturally, and included our men and Muslims, together
24 With an UNPROFOR escorts. We were requested to go out on the
25 Field on Sunday, but without UNPROFOR the Elektroprenos from
1 Republika Srpska did not go out. It was prepared to go out for
2 Repairs today, but the works were postponed today. Yesterday,
3 Namely Sunday, there was a power cut in the afternoon around 3.00
4 P.m. I don't know why. A power failure was announced and I heard
5 About this this morning on the radio. I heard that one of the
6 Breakdowns was known and the other one was unexplained.
7 We do not know whether lines have been interrupted somewhere
8 Between the Croatian Muslim lines. It has already happened
9 Several times that the zones of Ilidza and Hadzici have been left
10 In the dark due to the interruptions of power lines in the city.
11 I personally disprove of that because the men that work with me
12 Are more than willing to go out for repairs not only in daytime,
13 But at night too if need, in a mixed team and with an UNPROFOR
14 Escort to repair all that is necessary provided that fair honest
15 Treatment is ensured. The order should be given, regardless of
16 Which army is involved, that civilians and workers involved in
17 Humanitarian missions should not be shot at. So that's what
18 Happened to me again.
19 Does this mean that because of the interruption of the power line
20 From Vogosca to Sarajevo, the Muslims cut off electricity to this
21 Part of Serbian Sarajevo?
22 I can't say that that is what happened with certainty. There are
23 Some indications that the power line is functioning correctly, but
24 As we did not go out to carry out repairs yesterday, the power
25 Line has simply been shut down.
1 This will be cleared up today and our liaison officers and
2 Engineers who work in the UNPROFOR engineering sector will be
3 Having a meeting today at 1.00 p.m. and they will agree on repair
4 Crews that have to be sent out to repair the high tension power
5 Line. Also because on Saturday, as a result of military activity,
6 The power line in Vogosca-Velisici which used to supply the
7 Priority users in Sarajevo. This is a power line bringing power
8 From Serbia and it is a well known fact. About 2 to 3 megawatts
9 Were also directed to Grbavica. Grbavica has been left without
10 Electricity to.
11 Thank you.
12 Not at all.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Sir, were you able to recognise the video that we have just seen?
15 Mr. Radojevic, can you hear me? Sir, can you hear me?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Since we get no response, I take it that the witness
17 cannot hear you. Could the technicians please try to find out why the
18 witness doesn't receive any sound. Could you please try it again,
19 Ms. Pilipovic.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, can you hear me?
22 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that we will get a sign from the
23 technicians when the sound connection, the audio connection is in effect
24 again. Yes. If no one speaks, then we cannot test whether it works.
25 Do you hear me again, Mr. Radojevic?
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, can you hear me? Can you hear me?
3 JUDGE ORIE: We will see whether we can reschedule then this
4 morning and have two breaks of the same length. That would mean that we
5 have a break now for 25 minutes, and that we will have a second break
6 later on also of 25 minutes. We adjourn until 25 minutes to 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.40 a.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojevic, could you please speak a few words so
10 that we can see whether we can hear you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you. Can you hear me?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can hear you clearly. Ms. Pilipovic, please
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Sir, we had a look at a video before the break.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recognise the video?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. On the video that we had a look at, were you being interviewed?
20 A. Yes. That was one day after I had been wounded in Zuc when
21 carrying out repairs on the long distance power line.
22 Q. Did this video perhaps remind you of that period of time, the
23 season or the year?
24 A. No, it didn't because I also had a medical certificate at home and
25 all the details, but I didn't think it was necessary to bring any papers
1 with me. I hadn't been informed, otherwise I would have provided you with
2 detailed information. If necessary, I can fax this to the Defence after
3 this hearing.
4 Q. Thank you. Sir, in your interview, you told us what the reason of
5 the damage was when electricity was being provided to Sarajevo?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember saying that the reason for which the electricity
8 supply was cut off in Hadzici in Ilidza, do you remember mentioning the
10 A. I don't remember whether I said that, but I know that the long
11 distance power line in that area, I think it's between Stubovo [phoen]
12 between the 11th and 12th between Reljevo and Buca Potok. I think there
13 was damage in one of the power lines and we went to carry out repairs.
14 That night there was fighting in that area. We arrived up there. A
15 Muslim team arrived from its side and I came from Reljevo with my team.
16 We contacted each other via radio link. The line was very close, 50 to 70
17 metres away, perhaps. No more than that. I went to the part where the
18 Army of Republika Srpska was and reached the road where I met my
19 colleagues on the other side. Muradif Sabanovi, a liaison officer was
20 there, a liaison officer with UNPROFOR on behalf of Electroprevrida of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were two other men who agreed on how we should
22 proceed, how we should work. I said, "Saban," that's what we called him,
23 "you pull a line through and my installers will bring other equipment.
24 We will repair this quickly. And since UNPROFOR carriers are with you,
25 you can sort that out quickly and then we will withdraw as quickly as
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 possible, because as you can see, it is very dangerous here."
2 Q. Sir, could you slow down, please. We will get to that. But could
3 you finish what you were saying, please.
4 A. After the agreement, I went to my team which was on the left side
5 to the left of me. I don't know from which position, a rifle launch
6 grenade was fired. It hit a log, a tree that had been destroyed and the
7 fragments of the shell hit the bush and I was hit by fragments of the
8 shell in the left leg and shoulder. At the time I didn't feel any pain.
9 I went down to the team and told them what had happened. I said, "Let's
10 finish the job." Huso had asked me whether I had been wounded. I said,
11 "Veljo," that's his nickname, I said, "No, let's finish this job and then
12 let's go."
13 Q. Sir, sir, just a minute.
14 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. Radojevic, for a clarification.
15 What exactly was the distance between you and the shell that was falling
16 close to you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the shell and myself the
18 distance was about 2 to 3 metres. The shell fell 2 to 3 metres from me.
19 It hit a tree. I was protected by a tree which was between me and the
21 JUDGE ORIE: I asked this, Ms. Pilipovic, because there was a
22 difference in the interpretation from the booth and from what we read in
23 the transcript of the video. It was interpreted as 3 to 4 feet, where it
24 seems to be a couple of metres, rather than a couple of feet.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Radojevic, you told us that on that day when you were carrying
3 out repairs with your team and with an UNPROFOR escort, you said that on
4 that day you were wounded. You said that you didn't know the location,
5 but can you tell us under whose control the area was? Do you know from
6 which side the rifle launched grenade was fired?
7 A. It was fired from the Muslim side. And at that point I saw that
8 the command of the line, an officer's whose name I don't know, and two or
9 three other men with him, I saw that by the road near the line, they ran
10 down to where the weapon was fired from to see who it was. Later I was
11 told that the rifle launch grenade was accidentally fired, that the man
12 wasn't aware of what he should do. But what happened, happened, that's
13 all I know.
14 Q. Sir, when you went to carry out repairs with an UNPROFOR escort,
15 did you pass through certain parts of the town?
16 A. When I went to carry out repairs in Buca Potok, UNPROFOR was
17 waiting for me at a checkpoint in Reljevo. I went from the direction of
18 Reljevo through Brijesce, as far as Buca Potok. And that's where I
19 carried out repairs. And I used the same route to return because that is
20 the only checkpoint through which we could pass was through there. The
21 Reljevo checkpoint was the only checkpoint that engineers could pass
23 Q. Mr. Radojevic, when you went to the lines to carry out repairs,
24 you as a team, I am referring to the entire team, the mixed team, did you
25 have certain identification signs that showed that you were a team
1 involved in carrying out repairs?
2 A. No, we didn't have markings, identification signs of any kind. We
3 had various sorts of clothing. Some people were wearing working clothes.
4 Some people were wearing jeans. It depended on what the people had.
5 Although, at meetings with UNPROFOR when we were arranging how to carry
6 out work at various sites, I asked them to allow us to carry white flags
7 on the cars to mark the cars with these white flags and with certain
8 markings. But at the time we didn't receive permission to do so, see we
9 went to carry out the repairs without any particular identification marks,
10 apart from the fact that the UN vehicles were identifiable.
11 Q. Sir, you said that you carried out repairs in Buca Potok, and in
12 Buca Potok, was there a location that you could identify for us? Was
13 there a particular location where you could mention, a particular location
14 where you carried out repairs?
15 A. Yes, behind the Zrak factory. That's where the Odzakovici
16 settlement is located. It's called in that way because of surname of the
17 people who live there. Two of us turned up there in order to ensure that
18 there would be no shooting from Republika Srpska Army. This never
19 happened in any case. But we turned up to help. I worked on one pylon.
20 I went down to the team. I was met by someone in civilian clothing who
21 had identification papers. He said, "Hello," and he asked, "Do you have
22 more work to do?" I said, "We're coming to an end." I said, "I am the
23 chief of the security --" he said, "I am the chief of security. My police
24 are providing security and is insuring that the people should not be
25 afraid and insuring that nothing should happen to them."
1 Q. Sir, I asked you to reply slowly. Just speak slowly.
2 A. Yes, I will.
3 Q. Sir, when you were telling us that you went to carry out repairs
4 in the Buca Potok area behind the Zrak factory, do you know whether that
5 factory during the time of the conflict, do you know whether that factory
6 produced anything? Do you have any personal knowledge of this?
7 A. No, I don't. Because I couldn't have found this out from anyone.
8 I only went there to carry out repairs on the power line and to fix
10 Q. Thank you. Sir, can you tell us whether you as a team, you
11 personally, at any time were you under any commands of the Sarajevo
12 Romanija Corps?
13 A. I personally and my team, we were never at any time under the
14 command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and we didn't receive any orders
15 from them of any kind with regard to what we should do and with regard to
16 how we should do that. Any technical agreements with regard to carrying
17 out repairs would be agreed by me with my colleagues on the Muslim side.
18 And when there was damage in the territory under the control of the
19 Republika Srpska Army, I would personally make the plans and my colleagues
20 from the team, and we would go into the field to carry out those repairs.
21 Q. Thank you. Sir, in the video that we saw, at one point you
22 claimed that electricity for certain parts of the town that the
23 electricity supply to certain parts of the town came from Serbia too. Did
24 I understand you correctly?
25 A. Yes, you did. But I will clarify this matter. I will clarify how
1 the electricity was obtained from Serbia. In order for the power station
2 in Visegrad to work, it had to consume at least 50 megawatts. This was
3 the minimum. Without this minimum, it wasn't able to function. So the
4 power line, Visegrad, Rudo, Bijeljina through that power line, we would
5 send electricity to Serbia. But that electricity was only being taken to
6 Republika Srpska and Bijeljina Krajina because they didn't have enough
7 electricity. And without such a system, the power station in Visegrad
8 wouldn't have been able to function because it needed to have this
9 technical minimum, as far as consumption is concerned.
10 Q. Sir, now that you have clarified how the electricity was supplied
11 through the power plant in Visegrad, can you tell us whether damage to one
12 of the power plants could cause the electricity to be cut off in Sarajevo?
13 And we are talking about power plants.
14 A. Yes. Any sort of damage to the power plant can result in a cut --
15 in the electricity being cut off in Sarajevo, whether it is from Jablanica
16 and Kakanj, through the Kakanj-Reljevo place, but it doesn't matter where
17 it comes from. In all cases, the electricity supply can be cut off.
18 Q. Do you personally know what the reason for which the electricity
19 supply to the city was cut off was that there was damage to the Jablanica
20 power station, the Jablanica-Kakanj hydroelectric power station? Do you
21 know anything about this?
22 A. No, I can't remember this because of the period. But whenever the
23 Kakanj-Reljevo power station was faulty, that was a reason for why the
24 Serbian part of Sarajevo and the strict centre of Sarajevo didn't have any
1 Q. With regard to the Jablanica hydroelectric power station, can you
2 tell us how far it is from the town of Sarajevo?
3 A. Well, I think it is about 60 kilometers from the town, but at the
4 beginning of the conflict the Jablanica one power line and the Jablanica
5 two power line, which are 110 kilowatt power lines, and linked to the
6 Blazuj transformer station or rather to Sarajevo 1 in part of the
7 municipality of Hadzici and between Pozderici because of shells they were
8 damaged, pylons were damaged and they weren't functioning right up until
9 the end of the war. So that the Blazuj transformer station didn't have
10 any supply. Didn't receive anything from Jablanica.
11 Q. Sir, have I understood you correctly that when you say there was
12 damage to those power lines, was Hadzici an area which didn't have any
13 electricity for a long period of time? Was that one of the reasons why
14 Hadzici or Blazuj didn't have any electricity?
15 A. Yes, occasionally because the only alternative source of
16 electricity was the Jablanica-Kakanj power line and the Visegrad Vogosca
17 power line. So if any power line was not functioning, we would remain
18 without electricity in Sarajevo.
19 Q. Sir, when you said that one of the reasons -- when you said that
20 one of the reasons for electricity in Sarajevo was low voltage, was this
21 manifest in parts of the town to a greater or lesser extent? Did some
22 parts of the city because of low voltage, did some parts of the city
23 remain without electricity and which parts were concerned?
24 A. Yes, probably. But that was because of a centre in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina which --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Just a moment, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask for one clarification, Mr. Radojevic. Two
3 times Ms. Pilipovic has asked you about low voltage. What I heard as a
4 matter of fact is low number of megawatts. Is it the voltage or is it the
5 wattage that caused the problem?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The problem was the small -- the low
7 number of megawatts. The dispatching centres in the town of Sarajevo had
8 to decide how to distribute it and how to decide on the amount of
9 electricity they would provide to various consumers.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is my understanding right that voltage is a totally
11 different thing?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have understood that well. If
13 you have a sufficient amount of megawatts, then the power is a sufficient,
14 but if you don't, then you don't have sufficient power. So if the water
15 is passing through a pipe, and we have to distribute it to 150 households,
16 then that's not possible. There is water, but the capacity is not
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Radojevic, did I understand you correctly that it was to do
21 with the dispatching centre where these stations existed in certain parts
22 of town, where it was their area of expertise that certain parts of the
23 city could be supplied with electricity?
24 A. Yes, that's exactly correct. And even today in peacetime,
25 dispatchers are those who decide from where and where the electricity is
1 going to go, from which part of the town to which part of the town and
2 which switches will be used to switch on the electricity. Because the
3 dispatchers are the basic field for the supply of electricity. They are
4 the ones who will make sure that there is no problem with the electricity
5 supply, that there is no breakdown, so that I didn't go into to many
6 technical details. So if they get a message, what they do is they get
7 messages through those duty electricians and transformers stations about
8 electricity supply and who will get what.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have
10 no further questions. Let me just confer with my colleague.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one more
14 Q. Mr. Radojevic, the area of Jablanica and Kakanj, can you tell us
15 under whose control was it, under the control of which arm?
16 A. Jablanica was under the control of the BH Army, and Kakanj was as
17 well also under the control of the BH Army, as far as I know. That
18 doesn't have to be correct.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojevic, you will now be examined by counsel
21 for the Prosecution. Ms. Mahindaratne, is the Prosecution ready to
22 cross-examine the witness?
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:
1 Q. Good morning, sir.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Sir, would you be able to say as to how many substations supplied
4 electricity to Sarajevo prior to the outbreak of the war? And I am
5 referring to the period February, March, 1992.
6 A. I don't know whether I will be able to give you the exact number,
7 but I will try to list them by their names. Blazuj transformer station;
8 Sarajevo one; Reljevo, Sarajevo 10; Vogosca, Sarajevo 4; Velesici
9 transformer station, Sarajevo 2; Buca Potok transformer station; Nedzarici
10 transformer station; Hrasnica transformer station; Lukavica transformer
11 station; Otoka transformer station; Skenderija transformer station; and
12 Kosevo transform station. At this very moment I wouldn't be able to list
13 any more.
14 Q. So, sir, would you agree that there were about 10 to 12
15 substations supplying power to Sarajevo prior to the outbreak of the war?
16 A. Well, I didn't count them, but I would agree. If you counted
17 while I was listing the names.
18 Q. And sir would you be able to say during the period of the
19 conflict, and I am specifically referring to the period September 1992 to
20 August 1994, how many substations supplied power to Sarajevo?
21 A. Buca Potok transformer station and Velesici transformer station,
22 on the side of the control of the BH Army. And the Blazuj, Reljevo, and
23 Vogosca on the area under the control of the Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Would you agree with me if I suggest to you, sir, that during the
25 period of conflict, that is of the period September 1992 to August 1994,
1 the main substation that supplied power to Sarajevo was Buca Potok?
2 Pardon the pronunciation.
3 A. I would agree because from the direction of Reljevo, electricity
4 went to Buca Potok.
5 Q. So the entire consumption of power that was required in Sarajevo
6 for the operation of hospitals, domestic purposes, and the operation of
7 trams, came to Sarajevo via Buca Potok, that is the same substation
8 referred to you by as Sarajevo 7; isn't that the case?
9 A. That's right. And in exceptional circumstances, also came to
10 Velesici in the direction of Vogosca. Those moments when the pylon
11 between Visegrad and Vogosca were working, then that's when we directed
12 the electricity. So Velesici was also used but the main transformer
13 station was Buca Potok.
14 Q. Would you be able to say, sir, if the main transformers at Buca
15 Potok was the power or did not have power to distribute to Sarajevo, what
16 would be the effect? What would have been the effect?
17 A. If there was no electricity, then there would be a breakdown
18 somewhere on the pylon between Reljevo and Buca Potok. We would go there
19 to decide and would repair as soon as the damage was repaired, then there
20 would be electricity at the transformer station.
21 Q. Sir, you misunderstood my question. My question was if Buca Potok
22 did not have power to distribute to Sarajevo, what would have been the
23 effect? Let me approach this in a different way: Sarajevo then would
24 have suffered a complete blackout; isn't that the was?
25 A. That's right. There would be a blackout.
1 Q. And even for trams to operate in Sarajevo, that wouldn't be
2 sufficient in power, isn't that the case?
3 A. That's right. There wouldn't be any.
4 Q. The substation in Buca Potok was only a distribution point; isn't
5 that the case?
6 A. The transformer station of Buca Potok received electricity from
7 Reljevo, and the distribution further on from Buca Potok was conducted by
8 Electroprivreda of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they distributed as they saw
10 Q. That's good. So the substation at Buca Potok was supplied with
11 power from Reljevo, you agree with that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And Reljevo was the only substation which provided or supplied
14 power to Buca Potok?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Sir, have you ever visited the Reljevo substation?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And you had the opportunity to observe its control panel?
19 A. Yes, I have.
20 Q. Have you seen the switch, or to use your terminology perhaps, the
21 circular breaker which is listed as Buca Potok on that panel?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If that circular breaker was switched off, what would be the
25 A. That circular breaker, what would happen is that that would be
1 detrimental for the city of Sarajevo. But that would be switched off only
2 at the moment if the pylon would break down. Because the equipment, as we
3 call it, we would then have to switch off the circular breaker to stop the
4 electricity in the pylon, so that the workers wouldn't be harmed. After
5 the repair was done, then they would following a message and instructions,
6 we would then again switch off -- switch on the circular breaker for Buca
7 Potok. If you understood me.
8 Q. Sir my question was not when the circular breaker was switched off
9 but as to the effect of switching off the circular breaker. What would
10 happen if it was switched off?
11 A. There would be no electricity in Buca Potok.
12 Q. So Sarajevo would be subject to a complete blackout?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And this applies to all the areas under -- in Sarajevo under the
15 control of the BH Army?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that there was the capability of the
18 mere flick of a switch to subject the entire Sarajevo to a complete
19 blackout from Reljevo?
20 A. I would agree with you, but this never happened, not once.
21 Q. Could you or do you know as to who, which army, was in control of
22 the territory in which the Reljevo substation was located?
23 A. Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Sir, in your examination-in-chief, you stated that an officer of
25 one of the armies could walk into a transformer unit or substation and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 make certain requests as to switch off power supplies to certain areas.
2 A. I said that in answer to a question with relation to the part of
3 the city under the control of BH Army, that any of them could have gone in
4 and asked for supply of one or other part of the Sarajevo.
5 Q. Likewise, in the circumstances, even members of the Sarajevo
6 Romanija Corps had the capacity to walk into the substation in Reljevo and
7 request that the circular breaker labelled "Buca Potok" -- pardon the
8 pronunciation -- to be switched off?
9 A. Yes. But that never happened, that they would go in and request
10 that, demand that. Because we -- we were very careful about the behaviour
11 of our people who were working in transformer station, that nobody would
12 be able to have access to the switch, apart from the person who was
13 technically in charge.
14 Q. If trams are to be operated, you essentially require power; isn't
15 that the case?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. So if any party wished trams to cease from operations, the best
18 possible means to achieve this would be to ensure that the power supply to
19 Sarajevo is terminated; isn't that the case?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Moving on to another area, sir. You testified that during the
22 period September 1992 to August 1994 you were employed as a professional
23 technician, if I may use that word, to carry out repairs to power lines?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During this period, were you required to report on a daily basis
1 to a particular duty station?
2 A. I don't understand. What kind of station do you mean?
3 Q. Did you have a particular duty station where you were required to
4 report to daily?
5 A. I had a director of the company, and every day I would see it was
6 in Vrelo Stanica station, every day we were located there and waited for
7 the reports to come in. If some damage was done somewhere that very same
8 moment we could set up and repair the damage. And the reports, I never
9 had to submit any reports because just to say -- perhaps just to say this
10 damage has been repaired and this pylon can now be switched on.
11 Q. So where were you instructed or who instructed you to carry out
12 the repairs you were required to carry out?
13 A. There were no instructions that were issued. I would simply
14 agree, myself, with my Muslim colleagues in terms on how we are going to
15 carry out repairs. So we were the experts who had worked before the war
16 together. We knew each other well. And we knew also how was one to carry
17 out these repairs. So we would then agree what would be the easiest way
18 of carrying out repairs with the agreement of UNPROFOR.
19 Q. So how did you know when to carry out which repairs and where?
20 Were you not instructed by some person?
21 A. When the damage occurred, the electrician on duty at the
22 transformer station between which and the other side of the transformer
23 station where there was damage done, he would then inform us that the
24 pylon wasn't working. So I would come out from my side up to the lines of
25 the Republika Srpska Army, and my colleagues would arrive from the other
1 side would come to the lines of the Army of BH, and we would then
2 establish where the damage was done, where the breakdown occurred. So
3 then we would agree on how to repair the damage, with the agreement of
4 both armies, to ensure through UNPROFOR this peace while we repaired the
6 Q. So according to your testimony, sir, repairs were carried out in
7 consultation with both the armies and through the mediation of UNPROFOR in
8 most of the instances; isn't that the case?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Now, as you stated, you said like on the side of the confrontation
11 lines where you were working and living, on the other side, that is on the
12 territory controlled by the BH Army, there was also professional
13 technicians who were capable of carrying out repairs to power lines and
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. In which instant, was there any necessity for a professional
17 technician to ever cross the confrontation line and go on to the territory
18 controlled by the opposing army to carry out repairs to power lines
19 located in that territory?
20 A. That didn't happen once, but some hundreds of times my team went
21 across the Muslim trenches, Muslim army trenches, and the other way
22 around. Their team went to the area under the control of the Republika
23 Srpska Army so that we would carry out the repair together. And for your
24 information, for all the going out into the field to carry out repairs, we
25 had to go across the territory under the control of Republika Srpska Army.
1 So from Reljevo, Vogosca to the Zuc area where there was most repairs had
2 to be carried out in that area.
3 Q. So you and --
4 A. If you didn't understand, my team and the Muslim team, we both had
5 to go into the field under the control of the Republika Srpska Army. So,
6 from the Reljevo checkpoint through Vogosca to the Zuc elevation or from
7 Reljevo direction to the Zuc area elevation point, depending which pylon
8 wasn't working.
9 Q. Sir, is it your position then that the repairs you carried out
10 were on power lines located in territory controlled by the Republika
11 Srpska Army, that is the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
12 A. No. That's not what I said. There was damage between the
13 demarcation lines of both armies, and we would come to repair that damage.
14 Going via the territory controlled by the Republika Srpska Army, went
15 across the trenches of Republika Srpska Army, carried out the repairs, and
16 if there was need, we would go across the trenches of the BH Army if there
17 was damage done to a pylon somewhere behind their lines. Myself, my
18 people, and the team from Sarajevo.
19 Q. So why was it required for you and your team to cross the line and
20 go into the trenches or the territory controlled by the BH Army when there
21 were in fact professional technicians on that side of the line?
22 A. Because we didn't believe that all the people were normal over
23 there, and if they said that someone wouldn't shoot, that's why we went
24 together, that one Muslim and one Serb would go up on the pylon so that
25 nobody would know, the army wouldn't know so they wouldn't shoot, who was
1 who. I will give you one incident. In the area of Sabanova Kuca, we
2 worked on the territory behind the BH Army lines. We didn't finish the
3 job that day. When we went to withdraw, my colleague Sabanovic was asked
4 by a soldier, "Where are you going Saban?" So he said, "I want to see off
5 my Serbs from Ilidza, so that the next day, God willing, we can come and
6 repair so that there is electricity in Sarajevo." This soldier said that
7 he was cursing our Chetnik mother and that he would kill us, so that he
8 took Saban into one of the houses and we had the problem --
9 Q. If you could keep your answers short, because I am under time
10 constraint. Now, when you --
11 A. Yes. Very well. I had to tell you this, while we worked
12 together, this happened because of this incident that a certain individual
13 caused, not just for me but for others, and so on.
14 Q. So you said that when repairs were carried out it was done in
15 consultation with both armies and on the mediation of UNPROFOR; isn't that
16 the case?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. And generally at times when repairs were carried out at the repair
19 site, the liaison officer of both the armies, together with members of
20 UNPROFOR; isn't that the case?
21 A. They were present, the liaison officers of Electroprivreda
22 Republika Srpska and of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Elektroprivreda, and very
23 rarely liaison officers of the armies, of the representative armies, the
24 Republika Srpska Army and BH Army, very rarely.
25 Q. Wasn't there procedure in place, sir, when UNPROFOR got involved
1 in repairs to utilities where both -- liaison officers of both armies had
2 to be present at the repair sites?
3 A. Well, only the officers were present at the moments when we had
4 meetings or agreements on how we would carry out repairs at some critical
5 points like Cakrcici and sometimes these elevation points in Zuc.
6 Q. Sir, you testified that Ilidza was deprived of power at certain
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. What was the power -- the substation which supplied power to
11 A. The transformer station Blazuj and it got supply also from the
12 Reljevo substation.
13 Q. Do you know which army was -- which army controlled the territory
14 in which the Blazuj substation was located?
15 A. Army of Republika Srpska.
16 Q. And you earlier stated that the territory on which the Reljevo
17 substation was located was controlled by the Republika Srpska Army, that
18 is the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Which army controlled the territory Visegrad? Pardon the
22 A. Army of Republika Srpska.
23 Q. You testified that the hydroelectrical power plant in Jablanica,
24 and the power plant in Kakanj, those territories were controlled by the BH
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I think that is so.
2 Q. Now, from those power sources in order to distribute power to
3 Sarajevo and Ilidza and other areas, power had to be distributed via
4 substations; isn't that the case?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And power distributed to Sarajevo as you stated earlier from the
7 substation in Reljevo which was under the control of the Sarajevo Romanija
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And power is distributed to Ilidza through the substation in
11 Blazuj which was also under the control of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. If any party did --
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that, Mr. President.
15 Q. One last question, sir: You stated that the sources of water in
16 Bascarsija and Jagomir were controlled by the BH Army?
17 A. Yes, that's right. I can't remember the name of the source above
18 Bascarsija towards Vucja Luka, that source was under the control of the BH
20 Q. So in order to distribute water to any area, essentially,
21 electricity is needed, isn't it?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. So in the absence of electricity the water source, the source of
24 water, does not help, does it, in order to distribute it to any area?
25 A. Water pumps at the source couldn't work.
1 Q. So, therefore, you do agree with me that in the absence of
2 electricity, water cannot be distributed?
3 A. I agree with you.
4 Q. Thank you, sir.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I have no more questions, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need to re-examine the witness,
7 Ms. Pilipovic?
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojevic, Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more
10 questions for you.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I am looking for just for clarification. From
13 where the Reljevo substation got -- did the Reljevo station get the power
15 A. I have already said that the Reljevo substation received
16 electricity from Kakanj Jablanica, power from those directions. And from
17 Visegrad through the Vogosca transformer station, via 110 watt power line
18 which goes through Kota and Zuc. It would receive power from that power
19 line. Those are the two directions from which it received power.
20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You said that --
21 A. And if the Trial Chamber has nothing against this, I have other
22 details that I can provide with regard to the power line poles which were
23 destroyed in the eastern part in order to make the power station
24 malfunction, and to cut off the electricity in Sarajevo.
25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No, I am sorry --
1 A. In both parts of Sarajevo.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Not at this very moment. You said that if you
3 switched off the power of -- at the Buca Potok or Reljevo, the city would
4 suffer a blackout; is that correct?
5 A. If you cut it off in Reljevo, the entire town would be without
6 electricity, both the Serbian part of town and the part of the town that
7 was under the control of the BH Army. But once again, I will repeat this:
8 This never happened, apart from when there was damage inflicted on the
9 power line.
10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So that included both sides of the city, the
11 Serbian and the Bosnian parts; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct. When the Serbian part of the town had
13 electricity, the Bosnian part -- the Bosniak part also had electricity.
14 Only if we didn't have time to carry out repairs on the power line which
15 went through Zuc, but if we refused to do that, they would simply cut the
16 electricity supply off in Kakanj and no one would have electricity. So we
17 depended on each other. We had to carry out the repairs as quickly as
18 possible so that both parts of the town could have electricity.
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojevic, Judge El Mahdi also has one or more
21 questions for you.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 [Interpretation] Sir, there is one matter that I would like to
24 clarify. Did the Reljevo station at the moment, at a given moment in time
25 during the September 1992 to August 1994 period, was this station -- was
1 this station damaged during that period?
2 A. I can't remember the exact time or the date. It was shelled. And
3 on that occasion, an on-duty electrician that was working there, he is
4 wounded, and I think he has remained disable. I don't know which leg he
5 was wounded in. There was a minor malfunction, but it was quickly
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And do you think that this was a
8 premeditated attack? Was this station targeted or was this station near
9 to some other military target?
10 A. My personal opinion is that it was shelled intentionally because
11 the Blazuj power station -- the transformer station was also fired at from
12 the direction of Hrasnica.
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojevic, I also have a question for you.
15 You've told us extensively on how damage to pylons would interrupt the
16 power line between Reljevo and Buca Potok. Are you aware of any other
17 reasons why it ever happened that the power supply from Reljevo to Buca
18 Potok was interrupted? So, apart from damage to pylons.
19 A. I don't think so. I don't know of any other occasions because I
20 personally, I was personally in charge of the repairs and the maintenance
21 of the power lines in the area that I mentioned at the beginning when
22 questions were put to me by the Defence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Did it ever happen that for a longer period of time
24 you would have no electricity in Ilidza, for example, without you being
25 sent to repair the power lines?
1 A. I think that at one time the period when Sarajevo had no
2 electricity for three months, I think that that happened. But no one
3 could have sent me out to carry out repairs. If I wasn't able to go to
4 the site, those malfunctions occurred at the places that I have already
5 mentioned. We tried to go and carry out repairs on the power line. But
6 since it wasn't possible to reach agreement -- when we could reach an
7 agreement, when we went out with a team, when I went out with a team, I
8 can't remember when, Ekrem Bicakcic contacted me personally via radio. He
9 contacted me and he asked me -- he used my nickname, he said, "Veljo, what
10 do we have to do today, what do we have to do to the power lines?" I said
11 "Mr. Bicakcic, as long as there is no shooting from your side from
12 Reljevo to Poljin above Vogosca, that's all you have to do and my team and
13 Sabanovic Muhrem, who was popularly called Saban, we'll do everything
14 else. That does not concern you."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know exactly where at that moment the damage
16 occurred that you could not repair for three months? Do you know the
17 exact location of the damage?
18 A. Yes. It is in the Reljevo, Vogosca, Buca Potok, part of the power
19 line from the elevation from what they called Jezevo at the time to Golo
20 Brdo and onwards in the direction of Zabrdje. I can't be more precise. I
21 could show you where that was at the site, but I can't explain this in
23 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that you are referring to part of a line.
24 How precise is your knowledge as to the specific spot where the damage
1 A. Well, I know that part very well because those sites where there
2 were malfunctions, a kilometre or so, I went there at least 100, 150 times
3 in the course of the war, if not, even more often.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us at what distance this was from the
5 confrontation lines?
6 A. The Vogosca-Reljevo power line ran along the entire length between
7 the demarcation lines. And the Reljevo-Buca Potok power line cut through
8 the demarcation lines. And at that part, the lines of both the armies
9 were between 100 and 150 metres, at the most, in the Golo Brdo area.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your answers. Is there
11 any -- Mr. Radojevic, since the -- since you have answered all the
12 questions of the parties and of the Bench, I would like to thank you very
13 much for coming and testifying even if it was at a long distance from The
14 Hague. And I know that your journey back home is not as far as for most
15 of the witnesses, but I hope that you will be safe home again soon.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I really
17 wanted to appear in The Hague, but as I am ill at the moment, this is why
18 I am not in the same courtroom with you and this is why I am speaking to
19 you in this manner and this is why I was not able to appear in person.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this is what I had to say in
22 response to the questions asked of me about the power line poles which had
23 been destroyed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all I wasn't able to say.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's addition.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, and I am addressing now both the
3 representatives of Sarajevo and here in the Hague that this concludes the
4 videolink testimony.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And the same is true for Sarajevo. I take it there is
7 nothing that should be brought to the attention of the Chamber at this
8 very moment by the representative of the Registry in Sarajevo. Thank you
9 very much.
10 [The witness's testimony concluded via videolink]
11 THE REGISTRAR IN SARAJEVO: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The technicians may close the transmission channel to
13 Sarajevo. At least the Chamber doesn't need it any more. I was informed
14 that the witness that started his testimony yesterday is not available at
15 this very moment, which surprises me. But I also was informed that he was
16 asked at least to be there not later than --
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is a bit surprising because I asked
19 yesterday, although it might not be today, that the witness should make
20 himself available. I asked the Victims and Witnesses Unit to trace him.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I informed the
22 section during the break that they should contact the witness who should
23 be appearing today. Perhaps we should have a break to check whether he
24 will be appearing.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before having a break, we could deal with a few
1 other issues. Yes, perhaps first we should give a decision on the
2 admission into evidence of the document or rather the videotape played
3 during the testimony of Mr. Radojevic.
4 Madam Registrar, that would be?
5 THE REGISTRAR: D348/8, is the video; and D348/8.A is the English
7 JUDGE ORIE: That video is then admitted into evidence, and the
8 transcript as well. Then I -- Mr. Ierace, yesterday you objected against
9 the question of Ms. Pilipovic, you certainly remember that, about
10 warehouses where the Territorial Defence was and the army was. It has
11 been checked yesterday afternoon. In the initial answer of the witness,
12 he mentioned the Territorial Defence. So when Ms. Pilipovic continued
13 with her next question to mention that, she was perfectly right to do so.
14 But it did not appear on our transcript. But it has been checked by now.
15 Then I promised the parties that I would give guidance in a few
16 respects relatively soon. I will give you some guidance on some issues
17 that have been raised during the last --
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has discussed many issues that came up
20 during the recent weeks, and I will try to give you, in a comprehensive
21 way, some guidance in respect of these issues.
22 First of all, the list of witnesses. The list of witnesses, the
23 form prescribed by the Chamber when the Prosecution was presenting its
24 case applies without any restriction to the Defence. Witnesses should be
25 listed when an update of the list of witnesses is given always in the
1 running order so that we start with the witness that is testifying at that
2 very moment. Not later than seven days prior to the testimony given, the
3 exhibits to be used should be known to the other party.
4 If a document is not yet listed and the need to confront the
5 witness with such a document comes up which may occur, upon good cause
6 shown why it was not previously mentioned in the list, the document may be
7 used. If that is a new document, a document not yet known to the other
8 party which of course -- which, for example, is possible if the witness
9 brings unexpectedly a certain document, then extra time may be granted to
10 the other party and that will bring a stay of the proceedings, usually the
11 Prosecution. So extra time may be granted to prepare for
12 cross-examination in respect of that document.
13 If the document is not new, but already known prior to the
14 testimony of the witness but perhaps not seven days in advance, then the
15 list should be updated with priority as soon as the Defence knows that a
16 document will be used not yet in the list and already disclosed or known
17 to the Prosecution, the list should be updated immediately.
18 When during the testimony of a witness reference is made to
19 earlier testimony, either of that same witness or of another witness, the
20 following applies: If the part quoted that same day, page and line should
21 be indicated unless it is immediately proceeding the new question. So if
22 it is just two or three questions ago, it is not necessary to indicate
23 page and line. If, however, there is more space between the question and
24 the testimony to which reference is made, then page and line should be
25 mentioned. If it is of a previous day, the quoting of this testimony
1 should be done literally. So not a vague reference, but literal wordings
2 of what has been said.
3 Objections are not, as a rule, an opening of argument. The type
4 of objection should be clearly mentioned such as relevance or
5 misrepresentation of earlier testimony, and as a rule, the objection
6 should not take more than two lines. Objections should not contain
7 comments and should not lead the witness.
8 Then the issue of the witness summaries. Updates of the witness
9 summaries should always contain a reference to the earlier summaries or
10 the earlier sources on which it -- to which it adds. The main purpose of
11 the 65 ter summaries is to give a summary of the facts that enables the
12 other party to prepare for cross-examination. If, therefore, as we
13 experienced several times, specific questions will be put in respect of
14 certain parts of the confrontation line, it should be clear what parts of
15 that confrontation line, and if relevant facts are mentioned in respect of
16 sniping or shelling incidents, it should be clear to which incidents these
17 relevant facts pertain and what is the kind of facts.
18 Since we have experienced now that, for example, lines of sight
19 are usually dealt with in examination-in-chief, it may be apparent to the
20 Prosecution that this is usually a relevant issue, and it is therefore not
21 necessary to specifically mention that. The same would be true for combat
22 activity in the area. The Chamber understands that relevant facts in
23 respect of certain incidents would comprise these usually covered issues,
24 although in the beginning when that was not yet cleared, it should have
25 mentioned that it was about the lines of sight.
1 But if there are other facts, other specific facts for such
2 incidents, they should be mentioned. And it is about issues rather than
3 about every single fact that will come up in answers. To give you an
4 example, yesterday facts were asked to the witness as to the impact of
5 mortar shells on hard or soft soil. Not every single answer the witness
6 would give in that area would need to be mentioned in the summary, but
7 this is an issue which was not clear from the summary given, and a very
8 generic reference to weapons and the use of weapons were not sufficient
9 under these circumstances.
10 If there are specific areas the Defence decides not to cover,
11 although they are mentioned in the summary, then it's fair to inform the
12 Prosecution that that area will not be the subject of examination-in-chief
13 any more. That does not mean that every question that will not be put to
14 the witness should be mentioned to the Prosecution, but that if an area,
15 if a certain issue will not be touched upon during the
16 examination-in-chief, that the Defence fairly should inform the
17 Prosecution about that.
18 Then the last issue is that when the Defence has not put to
19 Prosecution witnesses any element of what during the examination of the
20 Defence witnesses seems to be part of its case, the Chamber will not
21 prohibit those questions, but will consider any objection, and it might
22 eventually result in procedural remedies. One of them might be, depending
23 on the circumstances, recall of witnesses at a later stage.
24 These were the issues I would like to give the parties some
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has not been found yet. Have you been in
3 touch yesterday with the Victims and Witnesses Unit, Ms. Pilipovic, to the
4 availability of the witness today? I am asking -- yes.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And during the
6 break I also asked for this to be confirmed, since I had been told that I
7 wouldn't have a videolink because in my planning, I was planning another
8 witness for the videolink from 12.00 onwards. Since I knew that the
9 witness hadn't accepted this, I asked for the witness to be ready as of
10 12.00, the witness who started giving his testimony.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What was the content of your communication with the
12 Victims and Witnesses Unit yesterday about availability of the witness?
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't personally
14 have contact with them, but through my colleague who always contacts the
15 Victims and Witnesses Unit, I asked them to inform us that the witness
16 should be here today, so that the witness could testify, since I knew that
17 I wouldn't have a witness for the videolink.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have been in touch with
19 the Victims and Witnesses Unit yesterday?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I asked Ms. Pilipovic to
21 do that. When she says "her colleague" she is referring to the person
22 whom you have occasionally seen here, who usually assists us who is in
23 Belgrade, who called us from Belgrade, I think. But I haven't been in
24 contact but we took care to take measures for this witness to appear.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So you instructed the Victims and Witnesses Unit --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you have -- the Victims and Witnesses Unit has been instructed yesterday
2 to make the witness available also today?
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's what I
4 informed my colleague of after my colleague informed me that the witness
5 for the videolink was supposed to testified today at 12.00. I was
6 informed that the witness decided not to testify. And during the break at
7 10.20 at I again asked the Victims and Witnesses Unit to be contacted so
8 as to ensure the presence of the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber will try to obtain information of
10 the Victims and Witnesses Unit why the witness is not available at this
11 very moment. We will adjourn --
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before we -- just before we
13 adjourn, might I give the Trial Chamber some information in closed
14 session. It will only take a minute.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do you have anything to
16 address in open session?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, only two things, though.
18 The usual problem that concerns translation, that's the first thing, and
19 the second thing I wanted to say something about or rather as a follow-up
20 with regard to the order that you have just issued. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that can be dealt with in open session. I would
22 rather leave the translation issue until the very last moment because
23 there might come up new ones. Please tell us what you would like to tell
24 us in respect of the --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
1 Mr. President. The Defence took note of your recent order, and we thank
2 you for it. We simply wanted to point out two matters. Experience
3 teaches us very often, given the time we have to restrict ourselves for
4 the examination of a witness, we don't often know whether we will be able
5 to cover all the subjects. During the course of the examination, certain
6 choices have to be made, and in the course of the examination one decides
7 not to raise certain issues, for example, the map was a particular example
8 with regard to the previous witness. We don't know about these things in
9 advance. This depends on how possible it is for the witness to respond
10 quickly and how possible it is of the parties not to interrupt the
11 proceedings. So it is not possible to respect this literally.
12 And the second point with regard to this issue, and Mr. President
13 is that --
14 JUDGE ORIE: If I may respond to that immediately. The Chamber is
15 aware and, therefore, I think you could completely obey to the order,
16 because what I said is that if it becomes clear prior to the testimony
17 that certain subjects will not be covered, that you should then inform the
18 Prosecution. The Chamber is aware that in the course of the examination,
19 a development might occur such that you, because of the relevance or
20 whatever other reasons such as time, that you cannot touch upon certain
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
24 Mr. President. The second matter which is a little more upsetting for us
25 that I wanted to raise is that during the Prosecution case we received
1 very frequently statements, witness statements that were very long, going
2 in great detail, while in a matter of fact, it turned out that these
3 witnesses suddenly were not speaking about a lot of the things that we
4 were told about, were informed about.
5 So I don't think the Prosecution was in the same situation to tell
6 us this witness will not be speaking about this or that. So I believe
7 that there is a lack of balance between the parties and I thank you for
8 making observations. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think -- I am not quite sure whether I earlier paid
10 attention to it. Of course the Chamber has also considered this. The
11 Prosecution is under an obligation to provide the Defence with statements,
12 and in that respect, the obligations of the Prosecution go further than
13 the obligations of the Defence. So it is not obliged to provide witness
14 statements. The Prosecution also has provided summaries of the testimony
15 of witnesses which are not the same as the statements. So in general
16 terms, the Defence could have oriented itself primarily on the summaries
17 and find the details of those subjects covered by the summaries in the
18 statements of the witness in respect of those subjects.
19 So the Chamber is aware of the difference in position with perhaps
20 advantages and disadvantages between the parties.
21 Then, Mr. Ierace, you wanted to address the Chamber in closed
22 session. For one minute we turn into closed session now.
23 [Closed session]
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I promised you that and please proceed.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very quickly, line
2 320 in the English transcript, something was not translated regarding to
3 the Blazuj group, page 4, line 15 in the French transcript, it wasn't said
4 that the witness went into the mountains, maintained which was a mountain.
5 Also there was another person that was mentioned, I think Huso Habanovic.
6 His name we will not find in the English transcript. On page 10 Defence
7 were given by the population that was residing near the Zrak factory.
8 That is not in the English transcript. And also another thing is that he
9 went out to do reparations, to repair. That is not in the English
10 transcript. I believe that the man that he went to do the repairs with, I
11 believe his last name is Sabanovic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We will
13 then adjourn for 25 minutes so that it is up to 20 minutes to 1.00, but
14 the parties may try to get information on whether the witness is available
15 or not because the Chamber is informed that there is no other witness
16 available. So we could not continue, but let's try to do our utmost best
17 to get the witness into the courtroom in 25 minutes.
18 Perhaps it comes close to lunchtime that could perhaps solve the
19 problem. We will adjourn until 20 minutes to 1.00, and if the witness is
20 not available, we will continue tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.50 p.m.
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of
23 November 2002 at 9.00 a.m.