Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16200

1 Monday, 25 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Madam Registrar, could you please call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before the Defence calls its next witness, I

10 would first like to go through the documents that have been tendered

11 through witness, I think it was DP53. Yes, it was DP53, last Friday.

12 Madam Registrar, could you please assist us.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1795, under seal, pseudonym sheet;

14 Exhibit D1796, map, sniping incident 3, marked by witness; Exhibit D1797,

15 black and white photocopy of Prosecution Exhibit P3760, marked by witness;

16 Exhibit D1798, black and white photocopy of Prosecution Exhibit P3758,

17 marked by witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Since I hear no

19 objections, they are all admitted into evidence. Number 1795, that is,

20 Defence Exhibit, under seal.

21 Then before calling the next witness, that would be DP -- and let

22 me just find the right number -- I take it that would be DP23,

23 Ms. Pilipovic; is that correct?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We still have to decide on the protective measures.

Page 16201

1 In the decision of the 19th of November it says that additional

2 information was not yet provided. Meanwhile, it is, Mr. Ierace, I see a

3 filing dated the 20th of November which provides additional information.

4 Is there any observation the Prosecution would like to make then? The

5 protective measures are granted as sought, that means facial distortion

6 and pseudonym.

7 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to -- yes, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the next witness will be taken by

9 Mr. Stamp.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: The reason he is not present is that we were handed a

12 letter just before you entered the courtroom indicating that there are an

13 additional eight exhibits to come in through this witness. Mr. Stamp has

14 left the Trial Chamber to obtain some further material in relation to

15 those eight exhibits. I am happy for the examination-in-chief to start,

16 provided that doesn't impact on the permissibility of Mr. Stamp's

17 cross-examining the witness.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the Defence may

19 respond. Does Mr. Ierace mean the letter dated the 24th of November in

20 relation to Exhibit P3763, 3757, and 3762?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are photographs

23 that we received from the Prosecution for the first witness, so not in

24 relation to the witness who was here on Friday, DP23, but the witness

25 before him, that these photographs, if I may assist my colleague, these

Page 16202

1 are not new exhibits. I just wanted to inform the Chamber and the

2 Prosecution that we will also be showing these photographs.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that may be a little unintentionally

4 misleading. They are not photographs that were shown to the last witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think Ms. Pilipovic said not the last but the one

6 that was before that.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes, they weren't tendered through that witness, and

8 there is a sketch as well which is including amongst them that relates to

9 the photographs. And I think the photographs originally were tendered in

10 the Prosecution case. I think that's correct.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. IERACE: In other words, there's a focus on the evidence of a

13 particular Prosecution witness which is now apparent, and we wish to

14 refresh our memory of the testimony of that witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think you mentioned three exhibits

16 that were, well, let's say, reasonably shown to the Defence witness by the

17 Prosecution. And you mentioned three numbers. But I see on your list, I

18 see eight "P" numbers, and on the initial list, only one, so that would be

19 seven new, minus three, remains four unexpected exhibits.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I owe you an

21 explanation. In relation to photographs 3131, these are also Prosecution

22 exhibits, and also the sketch P2424. So perhaps for my colleagues that

23 will be something new. But if that is a problem, then the Defence will

24 not show the photographs. Since P3131, that was tendered through a

25 protected witness, and P3131 is a set of eight photographs.

Page 16203

1 JUDGE ORIE: I am not seeking to prevent the Defence to show

2 photographs to witnesses, I am just trying to find out to what extent the

3 late information as to the exhibits to be used would justify a -- the

4 Prosecution to split up the cross-examination and to justify the absence

5 of Mr. Stamp, who is supposed to do the cross-examination.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if it will assist, I don't propose to

7 split the cross-examination for that reason.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, but I am not expressing myself properly, to

9 justify that Mr. Stamp, although not present during the

10 examination-in-chief would do the cross-examination. There he is.

11 Sometimes time solves problems.

12 Mr. Stamp, we discussed what to do with the cross-examination if

13 you would not have been present during the examination-in-chief, but the

14 problem has solved itself. Good morning.

15 MR. STAMP: Good morning.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the reason of your temporary absence has been

17 explained by Mr. Ierace. I think then we could start with the examination

18 of the witness. Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to call its next

19 witness?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist us.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP23, because that's how we will

24 call you. Protective measures have been granted in your respect, that

25 means that the outside world will not see your face and we will not use

Page 16204

1 your name. Mr. DP23, before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of

2 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

3 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I

4 invite you to make that solemn declaration of which the text will now be

5 handed out to you by Madam Registrar.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that

7 I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, please be seated, Mr. DP23.

9 Ms. Pilipovic, where you made reference to the witness then DP23

10 before, I take it that you -- it was just a mistake and that you meant to

11 refer to Witness DP53. Yes. Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you,

13 Your Honour.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS DP23

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP23, good morning.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Before I start asking you questions I will show you a document so

20 you can confirm whether the information contained in the document is

21 correct.

22 A. Yes, the information is correct.

23 Q. Mr. DP23, thank you.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would it be a

25 suitable moment to go into closed session?

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1 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into closed session, but private session.

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19 [Open session]

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Your Honour, if I may just use one opportunity during the private session.

22 During the --

23 JUDGE ORIE: We are already in open session, Ms. Pilipovic. It

24 goes so quick. But if you -- if there is any need to return in private

25 session, please tell me.

Page 16209

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it doesn't have to be

2 private session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session now. Then please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. DP23, I just wanted to warn you, when we are discussing some

6 names during the examination, if you wish to give a name or someone's last

7 name, if you don't want to say that in open session, could you please let

8 me know so that we can go into closed session, considering that we are

9 maybe speaking about some witnesses and some last names of people who may

10 have appeared here as protected witnesses, and we do not wish to disclose

11 their identity.

12 Witness, thank you. Mr. DP23 --

13 JUDGE ORIE: What you just said is the more true since the

14 LiveNote of the Registry is not functioning at this moment, so it will be

15 difficult to make a redaction to the transcript. So may I ask both

16 parties to be very cautious at this very moment. Please proceed

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. DP23, you told us that you lived in the settlement of Mrkovici

19 in 1992 in September, and we will be speaking about the month of September

20 1992 until August 1994. Can you tell us whether in September 1992 you

21 were engaged as a military person?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us where?

24 A. I was engaged in the Company of Mrkovici in Mrkovici.

25 Q. Can you tell us when was the Mrkovici Company established?

Page 16210

1 A. The Mrkovici Company was officially established when the

2 Army of Republika Srpska was established, except that in a certain way,

3 even before then we functioned. Because we self-organised ourselves

4 because there were attacks from the opposing side, so in a kind of defence

5 way, we were already organised and established.

6 Q. You tell us that in your settlement you proceeded to

7 self-organisation. Can you tell us whether you were armed?

8 A. Yes, we were armed. To start with, not many -- we didn't have

9 many weapons. We had some automatic rifles of the reserve police force.

10 Later on, we managed to get weapons before the establishment of the

11 Army of Republika Srpska. Sometime, I think it was in April in 1992.

12 What happened then was that weapons were taken from the barracks of

13 Faletici.

14 Q. Mr. DP23, were you armed, personally?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us what weapons did you have?

17 A. Automatic rifles.

18 Q. I think you said "automatic rifles," in plural. I meant you

19 personally?

20 A. Yes, had I had an automatic rifles because I am a retired SUP

21 officer. All police force members and they all had had issued automatic

22 weapons to them.

23 Q. You told us that before September 1992 in the area where you were

24 engaged and where your company was, there were attacks. Can you tell us

25 who was taking part in these attacks?

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Page 16212

1 A. Yes. Before the conflict itself broke out there were barricades

2 which had been erected in Sarajevo. To be more specific, a barricade had

3 been erected in Sedrenik at the entrance to the Seven Woods, of the Sedam

4 Suma, that was the only route that could be used to approach --

5 Q. Witness, I am going to interrupt you. When you said you had been

6 attacked, who attacked you?

7 A. Muslims attacked us from Breka, Sedrenik, Budakovici, Hrastova, 1

8 and 2, et cetera. From these areas.

9 Q. When you say they were Muslims from Breka, Sedrenik, Hrastovo. As

10 good neighbours, did you discuss this matter and attempt to hold a meeting

11 and to discuss this matter?, the engagement of your side, their side and

12 the attacks?

13 A. Yes, we had discussions on several occasions.

14 Q. When you said that you had discussions on several occasions, did

15 you receive instructions for those meetings, or did both sides decide to

16 hold a meeting on their own initiative?

17 A. No we didn't receive any instructions. At the beginning we spoke

18 of as inhabitants of the village of Mrkovici and these other villages on

19 the Muslim side because on the whole, we knew each other. And as

20 neighbours we tried to present incidents from happening, to prevent

21 further incidents from happening after the first one. Unfortunately, this

22 did not succeed because they never respected the agreements.

23 Q. Can you tell us who participated in those negotiations from your

24 side and from their side?

25 A. Yes, I can mention some names. May I?

Page 16213

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we go into

2 closed session? I wouldn't want certain names to be mentioned which --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will turn into closed session -- private

4 session, I should say. Ms. Pilipovic, on the other hand, I don't know

5 whether the testimony until now gives a picture of the situation prior to

6 the time covered by the indictment, and seems to give a similar picture as

7 we have heard several times before. So I wonder how much detail we would

8 need, especially if during that period of time. Please proceed.

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11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. DP23, thank you. Mr. DP23, you were the commander of the

14 company, of the Mrkovici company in 1992. Which military formation did

15 your company belong to? Which military formation -- within which military

16 formation did it function in?

17 A. Our company acted within the Hresa Battalion.

18 Q. Can you tell us who the commander of the Hresa Battalion was, at

19 that time when you were the company commander?

20 A. Yes. Milan Plakalovic was.

21 Q. You told us that there were about 100 men in your company. You

22 tell us what sort of weapons you had. What sort of weapons, light and

23 heavy weapons did the men in your company have?

24 A. It might be a problem to explain this in detail.

25 Q. Please go ahead, tell us briefly?

Page 16216

1 A. In April, in Faletici, left of Mrkovici, there was a warehouse, an

2 equipment and weapons warehouse. At the time we found out, we were

3 informed, that the Muslims were approaching from the southern side and

4 they were taking weapons away. So a certain number of Serbs also entered

5 from the north. They also took part of the weapons, some of the weapons.

6 And we received automatic rifles from the battalion and semi-automatic

7 rifles, a 60-millimetre mortar, and three machine-guns, M-53 machine-guns.

8 Those are the weapons that the men in the company had.

9 Q. Mr. DP23, can you tell us what the positions of your company were

10 in September 1992?

11 A. Yes, I can describe that to you. But to make this clear to you I

12 have to tell you what happened up until September 1992. Because up until

13 that time, from time to time the lines would move. On the following day,

14 the day after Bajram, the Muslim holiday, we were attacked or rather it

15 was more a matter of provocation; they wanted to see whether we were

16 alert. And on the 6th of April there was a frontal attack launched

17 against us. I think at least 100 men attacked us. At that point in time

18 we were in the first houses in Mrkovici, those are the houses of

19 Milorad Andzic, Mirko Andzic, Redzenovic.

20 Q. Mr. DP23, when I asked you a question about the positions of your

21 company in September, are you telling us that your company had positions

22 in those houses too?

23 A. Yes, yes, those are the positions concerned. On the whole, those

24 are the positions.

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP23, can you tell us how long the lines, your

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Page 16218

1 company's line was, the front line that your company had?

2 A. Between 2 and a half and 3 kilometers.

3 Q. Mr. DP23, from September 1992 up until August 1994, were you the

4 company commander throughout that period?

5 A. No. I was the commander up until November 1992.

6 Q. So, Mr. DP23 are you telling us that from November 1992 you were

7 no longer at that location or did you remain at that location in some

8 other capacity?

9 A. From November 1992 as the Army of Republika Srpska and other

10 services had been -- were almost completely organised by that time, I was

11 requested to report to the Ilidza police station where I used to work. So

12 that people were assigned to places where they were able to perform their

13 duties, according to what they were capable of doing.

14 Q. Mr. DP23, since in the area of the positions of your company you

15 were there until 1992 and you were the company commander, can you tell us

16 with regard to that period whether you as the company commander received

17 orders?

18 A. Yes, from September up until November while I was there, I did

19 receive orders from the battalion commander.

20 Q. Can you tell us what sort of orders you received during that

21 period?

22 A. The orders from my commander were that I should inform the men

23 that they shouldn't fire on civilians and civilian property. The orders

24 stated that they had to act in a disciplined matter, and on the whole

25 that's what it boiled down to.

Page 16219

1 Q. Mr. DP23, did you relay those orders to your men?

2 A. Yes, I did. I relayed the orders to my men on several occasions.

3 Q. When you say that you did so on several occasions, how often was

4 that?

5 A. Well, officially at least once a week, because a man would be

6 absent and then he would arrive, but sometimes even more frequently.

7 Q. Mr. DP23, as the company commander during that period, did you

8 institute proceedings against one of your men at any given moment, against

9 one of your men who failed to respect your orders?

10 A. No, I didn't, as this was not necessary. Everything functioned

11 correctly.

12 Q. Mr. DP23, given that you lived in that area, you told us how the

13 lines were established. Can you tell us whether there was any fighting at

14 the front line of your company during that period?

15 A. Yes. Fighting occurred on a daily basis. It was very seldom that

16 there was no shooting.

17 Q. When you say that there was fighting on a daily basis and that not

18 a day passed without fire being opened, can you tell us which positions

19 the BH Army took action from in relation to your company, the position of

20 your company? You tell us whether you know anything about the front lines

21 of the BH Army in relation to the positions of your company? Where were

22 these front lines?

23 A. Yes. The enemy side took action against us from the Grdonj area,

24 from Sedrenik, from the Sedrenik area, from Streliste, from Bakija. It

25 was from those positions. And heavy weapons were -- they had heavy

Page 16220

1 weapons in the depth of their line.

2 Q. Mr. DP23, you've mentioned heavy weapons, which were, as you say,

3 in the depths. Do you have personal knowledge of the positions concerned

4 and of the weapons concerned?

5 A. Yes. Well, I didn't mention this, but from the Kosevo tunnel that

6 goes in the direction of the railway station, there was a Muslim tank

7 which fired --

8 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues]... perhaps the

9 witness could indicate or could be asked to indicate the source of his

10 information, on what basis he is saying these things.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps it would be useful to clarify.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. DP23, you mentioned that the BH Army was active, took action

14 from the depth from heavy weapons. Can you tell us on the basis of what

15 knowledge are you telling us about the existence of heavy weapons that

16 were active from the depth? Did you see this yourself? Did you

17 personally see this or is this something that you were told by someone, if

18 someone told you about this, tell us who told you about this?

19 A. Yes, yes, but shall I first of all answer your question about

20 where they were active from or do you first want to know where I found out

21 about this from?

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is the best first to have the basis for

23 the answer laid, Ms. Pilipovic. So would you please first tell us where

24 you got your information from, whether you saw it yourself, whether you

25 heard it, whether -- and then please tell us what the content of your

Page 16221

1 knowledge is?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I received information from

3 people, from men on the other side, on the enemy side. I can tell you the

4 names.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If you would like these names not to become public,

6 then we will turn into private session. Another day of doing it,

7 Ms. Pilipovic, might be to ask the witness to write down these names

8 during the break so that we do not spend two or three months to --

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] To write them down, yes, that's

10 what I was thinking.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, during the next break, write down

12 the names of those who gave you information from the opposite side of the

13 lines so that we don't have to discuss spelling, et cetera. If you write

14 them down, we could then use them.

15 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. DP23, you told us that you were told of this by certain people

18 whose names you know, and you can tell us their names?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. DP23, can you tell us whether your knowledge of all the

21 positions comes from other people or did you see some of the positions

22 yourself?

23 A. I could see some of the positions myself directly, and I obtained

24 information from those people that concerned -- that was of interest for

25 the position where the company was located. Since I was a policeman all

Page 16222

1 information -- it was information that interested us.

2 Q. When you say that you could see certain positions directly, can

3 you tell us from which position with relation -- in relation to the

4 position of your company were you able to observe the BH Army firing from

5 heavy weapons directly?

6 A. To the right of the small fortress, or the so-called Mala Kula. I

7 could directly observe the tunnels from there, the Kosevo stadium, the

8 Ciglana neighbourhood, the Bare town cemetery, and the route towards

9 Kobilja Glava.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

11 Defence counsel would like to show Mr. DP23 part of the -- part of a map

12 of the town of Sarajevo so that the witness could mark those positions in

13 order for this to be clear to us all.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please assist.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Document Number D1800.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. DP23, could you use a black felt tip to mark and also draw a

18 circle around the positions that you said were the areas of concern. Can

19 you mark the Grdonj area on the map. And can you also mark the Mala Kula

20 area, too.

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. But could you please move your head a bit so that we can see.

23 A. This is Mala Kula. This here below is Grdonj.

24 Q. So, what can you see, what do you have direct vision of from those

25 positions?

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1 A. Well, from Mala Kula, you can't see much because down below the

2 area is covered by forest. But to the right, if you look towards the part

3 of the town under Muslim control, our positions were to the right and that

4 is from where you can see what I have just mentioned.

5 Q. Mr. DP23, could you put the map a bit up to the north and can you

6 mark what you could see from those positions, to the west of Mala Kula, as

7 you said.

8 A. Yes. The Ciglana locality -- shall I mark it with a felt tip pen?

9 Q. You can mark it with a circle and put a "C" in the middle for the

10 neighbourhood that you called Ciglana.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Can you tell us what did you see there?

13 A. From the tunnel, on occasions, a tank would come out and fire.

14 Q. Can you tell us in which direction? Did you see this personally

15 and on how many occasions did you see that? How frequent was that?

16 A. Yes, I personally saw it on several occasions. It would fire and

17 then it would go back into the tunnel.

18 Q. Can you tell us in which direction did it fire when you saw it?

19 Were you able to assess that?

20 A. Yes. It fired mostly on our right flank, which, that was not our

21 unit.

22 Q. Mr. DP23, you mentioned the cemetery of Bare. Can you tell us

23 from those positions what did you see, from your positions what did you

24 see? Yes, we can see that on the map, but what were you able to observe

25 there?

Page 16225

1 A. From that location, the opposing side used mortars, fired with

2 mortars of large calibre, 120-millimetre. On one occasion I think they

3 said they had Howitzers and this is where they were firing on us with

4 artillery. And they were firing on our positions in the depth of the

5 village, but they also fired on us, as well.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if it is necessary

7 for the transcript, perhaps we don't have to mark it because we can see

8 that the witness is pointing to the city cemetery of Bare that we can see

9 below the word "Sarajevo" in the top part of the map. And the witness

10 tells us that it was from the positions of Mala Kula he was able to

11 observe how large-calibre mortars were fired and how -- and from

12 Howitzers.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise it wasn't quite

14 Mala Kula position, it was slightly to the right of Mala Kula.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP23, now that you tell us this, bearing in mind

17 the time --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you ask the witness where he marked what he

21 called Mala Kula, to add an "MK" because it's just one dot on the map at

22 this very moment. Could you please add "MK" to where you marked Mala Kula

23 to be.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That would then

25 mark Mala Kula.

Page 16226

1 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. So, Mr. DP23, you are telling us west from Mala Kula you were able

5 to observe the firing of the large-calibre mortars and Howitzers firing

6 from the city cemetery. My question was: How frequently did you observe

7 this?

8 A. I saw that on several occasions. They fired on us several times

9 until we were able to see that. When I spotted them, I informed the

10 higher command. I think that they were neutralised.

11 Q. Mr. DP23, now that you've marked these positions for us of the

12 tunnel, of the Kosevo tunnel, and where the tank and the mortars were

13 active from, is this something that you were able to observe directly from

14 the positions west of Mala Kula?

15 A. Yes, that's something that I saw personally.

16 Q. Now, as far as the map is concerned, the map that is in front of

17 you, could you mark the locations about which you know that you got

18 information from the people that you will supply the names thereof later

19 on, and who told you about the locations that were used by the BH Army as

20 positions for use by their heavy artillery?

21 A. Yes. The mortars were still located just below the Kosevo

22 hospital near the engineering faculty. I will try and find my bearings on

23 the map, now.

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I again -- yes. Could it please be --

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 16227

1 Q. Mr. DP23, could you please draw a circle around that area and if

2 you can just put "M" there.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness marked

5 the location from where mortars were active which is located in the area

6 left from the word "Kosevo" that we can see -- by the Kosevo Hospital that

7 we can see we marked yellow on the map. I don't know whether that is

8 clear.

9 Q. Mr. DP23, can you mark some other locations on the map.

10 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid confusion, it is on the map right

11 from where it reads "Kosevo" but left from where it reads

12 "Bolnica Kosevo."

13 Please proceed.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. So, Mr. DP23, on this map can you see other locations, specific

16 locations that you had information about?

17 A. Yes. I will now try. The information about a mortar that was on

18 a vehicle that was driven from the entrance to Grdonj Mali ^, from

19 Sedrenik, and it moved in that area.

20 Q. Mr. DP23, can you please move your head a little so that we can

21 see what you are marking on the map. And can you tell us where that is,

22 what is the location that you are marking?

23 A. This is Sedrenik. Just a moment. And it went this way. It went

24 along this road. So I don't know whether this can be seen.

25 Q. Mr. DP23, can you tell us if this is a street, a street in

Page 16228

1 Sedrenik?

2 A. Yes. This is Sedrenik Street and Balina Kula. And in this

3 direction, the vehicle was driving, or vehicles, on which mortars were

4 mounted. And they were also located -- the mortars were located in the

5 Bare cemetery. Not permanently. This is something that was moved from

6 time to time. In the Bakija cemetery.

7 Q. Mr. DP23, before you mark this on this map, can you please

8 indicate the Bakija cemetery.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness drew a

10 line.

11 Q. And Witness, could you please mark number "3" next to the word

12 "Sedrenik."

13 A. Sedrenik, number 3.

14 Q. Can you just put a circle around it.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness drew

16 number "3" above the word "Sedrenik." And looking towards west, he drew a

17 line which runs more towards the north. And the witness tells us that

18 this street is the street used by a vehicle which had a mortar mounted on

19 it.

20 Q. Did I understand you correctly, Mr. DP23?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As for the map, you spoke about the Bakija cemetery. So that we

23 can see it, could you please mark this area.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. In that circle, could you put number "4."

Page 16229

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Page 16230

1 A. [Marks]

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, above the word

3 "Bakija" and the number "4," he marked a location from where mortars were

4 active.

5 Q. If I understood you correctly?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you are saying this is Bakija cemetery?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. DP23, considering that you have marked number 3 and 4, you

10 didn't draw a circle, although you also described it. Could you please

11 draw a circle around the Bare cemetery.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you. So, perhaps for the record, between the mortars that

14 were located near the Kosevo Hospital, can you draw a number "2" there,

15 can you indicate -- mark number "2" there, please.

16 A. I put an "M" there

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it would be

18 good to put number "2" there and "M" could mean mortar. Perhaps that

19 would be clearer.

20 Q. Witness, you can do a large circle there.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has done so already added the "2" to

22 where an "M" is in a larger circle. Please proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. DP23, on this map did you mark according to your information

25 and your knowledge, information from other people, you marked the

Page 16231

1 positions from which BH Army fired with heavy weapons?

2 A. The locality of Bakija, I was able to see that occasionally and

3 see it for myself that there was firing going on from that location. And

4 the other locations I would occasionally hear firing but it was impossible

5 to locate it because the terrain is such, the layout of the terrain is

6 such that you could never be absolutely certain where the firing came

7 from. But based on the information given or supplied by the people whose

8 name I will give you later, I found out the locations.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP23.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, considering that

11 Mr. DP23 marked certain locations and told us that this was the area where

12 he was able to observe the firing, the Defence would like to show the

13 witness a photograph, D347, which is a Defence exhibit.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, there is no objection to showing a

15 photograph, but the introductory comment is leading already. Yes?

16 Please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. If we can try and see

18 how clear this photograph could be. I think that on the video evidence

19 screen, it is clearer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I start?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. DP23, the bottom of the photograph or -- can you tell us where

23 was this photograph taken from, do you know?

24 A. This photograph was most probably taken from below the small fort

25 or from the small fort, except that this situation doesn't correspond to

Page 16232

1 the situation that was then at the time when I was there. Now, the wood

2 has been cut down and at that time there was the wood standing.

3 Q. Mr. DP23, could you use a pointer to indicate what can be seen

4 from this area that you say this photograph was taken from, from Mala

5 Kula? Can you show us the area that can be seen, or rather which part of

6 the city is that?

7 A. That is Kosevo stadium. This is Zetra, this is the Ciglana

8 locality, the tunnels. This part here, I was able to see it. But a

9 little further to the right from here. But at that time, from 1992, it

10 wasn't possible from here from where the photograph was taken from because

11 there was wood here. Now, the wood has been cut down so I don't know.

12 Here, to the right, right to the right it is possible to see the view of

13 all of this that has been shot.

14 Q. Mr. DP23, can you tell us in the bottom of the -- or rather in the

15 background of the photograph we can see a hill. Can you tell us what is

16 that?

17 A. This is Hum hill, if this is what you mean.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP23, while you were on these positions --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, for the sake of the transcript, the

20 witness pointed at where it appears to be the tower on the hill in the

21 middle of the photograph. Please --

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. DP23, do you personally know in the period while you were in

24 the area of the Sharpstone, can you tell us which army was on the Hum

25 hill? Do you know, personally?

Page 16233

1 A. With difficulty. I am sorry. I can only talk to you about

2 Mrkovici or rather the area that I know very well and personally.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP23, before you had a look at the map and marked

4 the locations that the BH Army fired from heavy weapons, I asked you about

5 the positions of the BH Army in relation to the positions of your company

6 on Sharpstone feature. Can you tell us how far was the front line of the

7 BH Army from you in relation to your positions? So we are talking about

8 the positions on the Sharpstone feature, on Spicasta Stijena.

9 A. Well, when there was -- when things were not changing, we were

10 about 100 metres away. And when they were attacking us, it would all get

11 confused, the line would get confused.

12 Q. When you say that there were moments that a distance was only 100

13 metres, can you tell us what was the defence line of the BH Army in depth?

14 A. The BH Army had three lines of defence.

15 Q. On the basis of what information are you telling us that there

16 were three lines of defence? Is it something that you saw for yourself,

17 that you know personally, or did you hear this from somebody?

18 A. Some parts it was possible to see by the person from our

19 observation. What we were not able to see for ourselves, it was through

20 these people that we got the information.

21 Q. When you say the person from your observation or your observer,

22 can you tell us how many observers did you have and where were they

23 located in the -- along the positions of your company?

24 A. We had one observation point on the Sharpstone feature, and one to

25 the right of Mala Kula. And for the rest of the line, there was no point

Page 16234

1 because the terrain was wooded, so you couldn't see anything anyway.

2 Q. Did I understand you correctly, so you had one observation point

3 near Mala Kula?

4 A. To the right of Mala Kula from which location it is possible to

5 see this part which is on this photograph, the stadium, the city cemetery,

6 and so on.

7 Q. Did you in the area of the Sharpstone feature, did you have an

8 observation post?

9 A. Yes, we did. That's what I said. We had an observation post on

10 the Spicasta Stijena.

11 Q. Can you mark in these observation posts in 1992 when you were the

12 company commander, and how did you carry out the observation?

13 A. The observation was carried out occasionally because it was

14 particularly on the Sharpstone feature it was very risky, it was an

15 improvised observation post at the time that I was there. It was very

16 risky. And this was done so on occasions, and then the observer would

17 withdraw up to our lines of defence.

18 Q. Can you tell us whether you personally know what the observer was

19 able to see by observing from the Sharpstone feature?

20 A. Yes. He was able to see Sedrenik, part of Sedrenik not all of it,

21 Grlica Brdo, up to the Bakija cemetery.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind the

23 testimony of the witness, the Defence would like to show the map in

24 relation to incident number 3 so that we can all see what the witness is

25 talking about.

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Page 16236

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Document number D1801.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. DP23, do you recognise this map, the map which is before you?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I recognise it.

6 Q. Mr. DP23, on this map can you indicate with a pointer what was the

7 area of your company? Let me just tell you that the green line is the VRS

8 line and the light green line is the BH Army line, the positions of the

9 BH Army.

10 A. While, I was there, that is, until November 1992, none of the

11 lines had these positions. These are not correctly marked.

12 Q. Mr. DP23, can you show us with the pointer what you think, in your

13 opinion --

14 A. This is where the Mala Kula should be.

15 Q. If you can, perhaps you could mark what the positions of your

16 company were in relation to Sharpstone feature and Mala Kula.

17 A. Is it possible to see it?

18 Q. Perhaps you could just make it a little thicker with the black

19 pen.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Mr. DP23, on this map could you mark the location for which you

22 say is a location called Velika Kula, the large fort?

23 A. Yes. Velika Kula should be around here somewhere, as far as I can

24 find my bearings on the map.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the end of the

Page 16237

1 line that the witness marked going below Mala Kula goes through the

2 circle, through the red circle and it goes up to the north. At the end of

3 that line, the witness marked with a small circle the position of what in

4 his opinion was the position of the large fort, the Velika Kula.

5 Q. Mr. DP23, can you please put the map down.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we perhaps -- could you please add first

7 "VK" to where you indicated that Velika Kula was. So near the circle

8 you've drawn.

9 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

10 MR. STAMP: And perhaps he could be asked to add "MK" for the

11 small fort. I think he pointed to it in the course of --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please add "MK" for Mala Kula to --

13 next to the point where you indicated Mala Kula was.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. I take it that the map could be

16 removed. Ms. Pilipovic, we are close to -- could you give us an

17 indication on how much time you would still need? I noticed that you used

18 until now, 70 minutes, which is of course considerable less than the two

19 hours you --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think about an hour and 10

21 minutes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That would bring you over two hours. Or is it --

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. No, Your Honour. No.

24 No, Your Honour. I will try -- it will be within two hours. What I said,

25 I have been examining for one hour and 10 minutes, so far so perhaps that

Page 16238

1 was the misunderstanding.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We do agree on that. We will adjourn until 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, can you please escort the witness into

6 the courtroom.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. DP23, before we have a look at the map again, D1801, did you

11 write down the names during the break?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the most practical way is that you first look

14 at them, Ms. Pilipovic, and then the Prosecution looks at them, and that

15 we then ask the witness to pronounce them aloud or -- but, then, of

16 course, in closed session.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we first then turn into closed session.

19 Private session, I meant.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16239

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again. Please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. DP23, you have written down the names from whom you obtained

5 information about the BH Army positions from which they fired from heavy

6 weapons.

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Could you just repeat the positions concerned, the positions that

9 the men whose name you wrote down provided you with information about,

10 which areas were those, in order to be precise? Could you tell us which

11 positions they are and which weapons?

12 A. Mobile mortars at the school of civil engineering, very near the

13 Kosevo Hospital, the clinical centre. And then there were forces that

14 would move and would fortify in our direction.

15 Q. You said information on fortification and on the movement of

16 forces?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us what you knew about the positions of the BH Army

19 trenches?

20 A. The first trenches in our direction were about 50 to 100 metres

21 away from us at the edge of the village of Mrkovici. The second trenches

22 were about 50 metres in the depth. And the third ones were in the houses

23 themselves. And I would like to add with regard to the gentleman whose

24 name is the first one on the list I have given you, because of what he

25 did, he was killed later.

Page 16240

1 Q. Are you telling -- is this something that you are telling us

2 because of the information you got?

3 A. Yes. He was tortured very badly.

4 Q. Do you have personal knowledge of this or did someone tell you

5 about this and when did this happen?

6 A. Yes. People who were in his neighbourhood told me about this in

7 Grdonj, people who left 20 days after he had been killed.

8 Q. Mr. DP23, you've told us about the lines of the trenches. The

9 Defence is now going to show you, as we are dealing with this field, with

10 these issues, and later we shall go back to the map 1801. I will show you

11 map 3765 -- 3756.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please put it on the

13 ELMO.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. Pilipovic? The transcript says map 3765 -- is

15 it this photograph P3756?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. It is a photograph,

17 yes. Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am very familiar with this

19 photograph.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. DP23, you told us about the lines of the trenches. Can you

22 now tell us where these positions are? Can you see them in this

23 photograph? Can you recognise them?

24 A. We are talking about our line?

25 Q. You can first of all tell us where "our line" is.

Page 16241

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Page 16242

1 A. Just before the small fortress and since the terrain slopes

2 downwards, it goes in front of this house and then to Spicasta Stijena

3 about 20 metres behind the edge of the Sharpstone feature. And then it

4 goes back, it follows an angle of 90 degrees up to the Andzica house it

5 goes to the cross-roads of Barice up to Velika Kula. That's our line.

6 Q. Mr. DP23, you mentioned depth of the front line of the BH Army?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us what the depth concerned is and where the lines

9 are?

10 A. The first line, this terrain was covered by a forest at the time

11 up until -- up to this transmitter. This forest has been cut down to an

12 extent now. So they were about 50 metres, between 50 and 80 metres in

13 front of Mala Kula. And then parallel to our positions down this valley

14 towards Spicasta Stijena. Then it went down below Spicasta Stijena to the

15 end and there is a slope here to the right and their line would return

16 towards us, it would run parallel to ours, and it would extend as far as

17 the big fortress or Kula, and they were also about 100 metres from us

18 there. That was their first line.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP23. You've just marked the first line. Were

20 these positions marked? Do you know about this? Were they marked in any

21 way? How do you know that those were the positions of the first lines?

22 A. Well, it is not difficult to know the position of this first line.

23 When we were attacked, we were able to see where they were attacking us

24 from. And, as I say through intelligence gathered, I don't know whether

25 it would be of interest to point this out, but these two men lived here.

Page 16243

1 One of them lived below the transmitter and the second person lived here.

2 I don't know if you can see it. They had a house here. They are

3 neighbours that I knew very well. I had known them all my life. So I was

4 fully informed about their trenches, about where they had dug in and about

5 the fortifications.

6 Q. Mr. DP23, can you tell us when you first received information

7 about the trenches and about digging in in the area that you have just

8 indicated to us, the BH Army area? What period does this concern? You

9 said that you were there from September to November 1992?

10 A. Yes, they --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

12 MR. STAMP: Before the witness proceeds to answer that question,

13 could I ask that, maybe for the record, we could describe where he

14 indicated the persons he referred to lived at. Maybe as simple as how was

15 that at the bottom of the Grdonj --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would please point again to the house

17 where one of your informers were living, so we can describe that for the

18 transcript. Could you please point at it again. You said the house was

19 somewhere below.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Person number one: Below the

21 transmitter in the first few houses in the photograph. Perhaps these ones

22 that I am pointing to or perhaps to the left, these two houses to the left

23 here. And person number two --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the first one. The witness points at

25 what seems to be a horizontal path approximately on the middle of the hill

Page 16244

1 without trees on the left side of the photograph that appear two or three

2 small houses, and as indicated that either in these houses or left from

3 them invisible on the picture his first informer would live.

4 Yes, and the second one who might be still alive? Perhaps we

5 should do that in closed session, Ms. Pilipovic? Would that not be

6 proper? Unless you say there is no problem.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Closed session. Private session, I apologise.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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14 [redacted]

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Page 16248

1 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into open session now.

2 [Open session]

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown D1801,

4 the map which includes incidents number 3 and 8.

5 Q. Mr. DP23, before the break you marked the positions of your

6 company for the period during which you were the company commander. Can

7 you tell us whether there was any fighting between the two opposing sides

8 in this area from the positions of your company?

9 A. Yes. Well, while I was there, there was fighting that occurred on

10 an almost daily basis.

11 Q. If I show you the places that have been marked with red dots on

12 this map to the right of the map where we have number "8" and in the

13 direction of number "3," you see those two dots?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If I ask you whether you can see these places, these locations

16 that have been marked from your positions, what can you tell us about

17 that? Could you please lower the map a bit and answer the question.

18 A. Well, if there was no military activity, then perhaps it would be

19 possible. I can't locate it precisely because since the layout of the

20 terrain is such, it is difficult. If there was no military activity, it

21 would be possible to see them, but when there is military activity, it was

22 impossible from our positions. It was only possible to see it from

23 Spicasta Stijena, but at the time it was impossible to remain at the

24 observation post, and as a result, it was impossible to see.

25 Q. When you mentioned fighting and the positions of the BH Army front

Page 16249

1 line, while fighting was ongoing can you tell us what the direction of

2 fire was, if we are talking about the positions of your company? Could

3 you use the pointer to demonstrate this on the map?

4 A. Sorry --

5 Q. What side and in which direction was fire opened?

6 A. When there was fighting. Throughout the entire line they would

7 fire at us --

8 Q. Can you use the pointer to show us in relation to the position of

9 your company, what direction was that?

10 A. They fired at us in this direction, like this. They could do so

11 here, but at Spicasta Stijena they weren't able to do so unless they came

12 out. There was only fighting at Spicasta Stijena if they were there

13 directly. Since we were behind the rock, when we would go out they could

14 shoot here, since we were 15 to 20 metres behind the rock.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the opposite

16 party shooting at the position of the witness, or was your question about

17 how fire came from the positions of the witness?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was about

19 opening of fire from both sides during combat, during fighting. In which

20 direction in relation to the positions of the company of the VRS, that is

21 of your company, when -- where was the fire coming from.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So you are asking about incoming fire and outgoing

23 fire?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you start with the -- as the witness already

Page 16250

1 did -- with the incoming fire. Please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. DP23, can you please mark from which positions fire was coming

4 from in relation to the positions of your company?

5 A. Firing came on the positions of our company mostly from infantry

6 weapons from their first line, and from heavier weapons, as I told you,

7 where the heavy weapons were located, from those locations, while the

8 infantry fire came directly from their first lines. They were firing on

9 to us and so we were firing on to them. That was exchange of fire.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP23, I think the only thing we haven't clarified

11 is whether did you have any information about the second and the third

12 line of the BH Army, where were they located and would you be able to

13 indicate them on this map?

14 A. I will try, although it was easier for me to do so on the

15 photograph, but I will try. The third line was in the first row of

16 houses. The third line in the houses that we can see on here, and that we

17 were able to see on the previous photograph.

18 Q. Mr. DP23, with a black liner can you please mark the third line on

19 this map, please.

20 A. I am not sure whether these are the first houses. As I said, on

21 the photograph it would have been easier, but if these are the first

22 houses -- no, no.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if the witness says that it is easier

24 for him to identify it on the photograph, would it not be wiser to ask him

25 to --

Page 16251

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I was just

2 thinking of that. Yes, Your Honour, that's exactly what I was thinking.

3 I would show -- show the witness photographs 3760 and 3758. These are the

4 two photographs that can be joined. Perhaps that would be easier for the

5 witness.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is now completely clear to

7 me.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. DP23, on this photograph can you please mark what were the

10 third line and the second line, from which BH Army was active? You say

11 from which they were firing with infantry weapons --

12 A. I can now show the second line. The second line mostly ran below

13 this road.

14 Q. Mr. DP23, so that we can have it very precise, can you tell us if

15 there are any specific locations that marked that second line?

16 A. The second line ran directly below the road next to this house

17 with the white roof on, next to the road. Because there is a road, a

18 macadam road, not for the vehicles, it is like a pedestrian path going to

19 Mrkovici and Barice, and it goes up to this house with the white roof. It

20 just goes below the road. And then mostly from that road goes a second

21 line, and then it climbs parallel with the Sharpstone -- Sharpstone --

22 Q. And the third line?

23 A. The third line was in the houses here, as you can see these group

24 of houses. And over there, below that aerial, below the transmitter,

25 that's where the third line went, in those houses, through the

Page 16252

1 communicating trenches, they were connected. The second, the first line

2 and all this was fully fortified.

3 Q. Mr. DP23, I don't think that you answered my question. When was

4 it that you personally found out that these lines were established

5 together with the communication trenches? When did you find that out?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before the witness answers this question, just for

7 the sake of this transcript, we have to identify what he pointed at. When

8 he was talking about the second line, he pointed at a road of which a part

9 can be seen on the foot of the wooded hill in the front of the photograph.

10 And then continued to the left approximately where some cattle seems to be

11 in the meadow just in front of the white -- of the house with the white

12 roof. When he was talking about the third line, he pointed at the group

13 of houses of which one appears in P3760 and the other ones, including the

14 house with the whitish roof on P3758, a group of approximately 15 houses.

15 Please proceed. Now, the next question was, I think, how

16 you -- when you personally found out when these lines were established,

17 together with the communication trenches.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly, but that

19 was well before September of 1992. I think by the end of May 1992.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. DP23, can you tell us whether you in your company when you

22 were the company commander, did you have snipers?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You told us that you had infantry weapons, three machine-guns, and

25 I believe you said you had a 60-millimetre mortar; did I understand you

Page 16253

1 correctly?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. In the area of your company were there mortars and/or artillery?

4 A. In the area of our company and throughout the area of Mrkovici

5 there was no artillery.

6 Q. Do you have any information or knowledge whether as part of your

7 battalion, were there any mortars or artillery there?

8 A. Yes, I do know. There was artillery in the wider area of Hresa,

9 but I am not sure whether that area belonged the battalion.

10 Q. Mr. DP23, did you, as a company commander, were you in a situation

11 to ask for the assistance from the battalion?

12 A. Yes, that did happen. When there were a larger-scale attacks, we

13 asked for the assistance from the battalion and they would then assess the

14 situation, depending on how it looked. I think that artillery was active

15 from that area, more or less, the wider area of Hresa and we had a unit

16 coming to assist us when we needed it.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP23, you told us until November 1992 you were the

18 company commander and that after that you went to the area of Ilidza, if I

19 understood you correctly?

20 A. Yes, I went because there was not enough staff, not enough

21 personnel, I went to the border crossing police station, Ilidza Kobiljaca.

22 Q. Mr. DP23, can you tell us what was your duty in the area of the

23 border crossing post Kobiljaca?

24 A. At the border crossing post of Kobiljaca we carried out checks,

25 controls, of the persons who were leaving and coming in and all other

Page 16254

1 convoys in accordance with the mandate that we had, including checking the

2 UNHCR, UNPROFOR convoys. And we also had other police tasks to carry out.

3 Q. Mr. DP23, while you were carrying out these duties on the

4 Kobiljaca border post, you said this was the area of Ilidza. Did you then

5 at that time live in Ilidza?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you personally have knowledge about November -- the period from

8 November 1992 until August 1994, in that area was there fighting?

9 A. Yes. There were -- there was fighting, combat activities, and in

10 a position to Mrkovici where there was more infantry fire, the actual area

11 of Ilidza and the centre village where I went to Kobiljaca to work, very

12 frequently, even the very centre of Ilidza was shelled by the opposing

13 side. They were shelled from Mount Igman and Hrasnica.

14 Q. Mr. DP23, when you tell us about the locations that the Ilidza

15 area was shelled from, do you personally know where were the positions of

16 the BH Army?

17 A. I don't know for certain. I know approximately Mount Igman area,

18 Hrasnica, Otes, Butmir. I know the actual centre of Ilidza was at risk

19 right up to the Blazuj location where our hospital for the wounded was.

20 Q. Thank you very much. And another question: When you told us how

21 at the border crossing post at Kobiljaca you were checking the passing of

22 convoys of humanitarian help, when you were there how much time did you

23 spend, say, in a week at this border post checking and controlling the

24 convoys coming in and out come?

25 A. On average, 8 to 10 hours daily.

Page 16255

1 Q. Can you tell us in your opinion how many convoys went in, how

2 many -- how frequent were the entries of the humanitarian convoys were in?

3 A. Of the UNHCR and other humanitarian convoys went in on a daily

4 basis. That was the cause of the major traffic jam at the border

5 crossing.

6 Q. Did you have any information or knowledge in which direction they

7 were going to?

8 A. Yes, they were going from the direction of Kiseljak to the part of

9 Sarajevo under Muslim control.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no further

12 questions.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. You will now be examined

14 by counsel for the Prosecution. Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

15 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Mr. President. Can we start by

16 going into private session.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16256

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE ORIE: It is confirmed on my screen now. Please proceed,

12 Mr. Stamp.

13 MR. STAMP:

14 Q. While you were at the area of the Sharpstone feature, the area

15 that your company had responsibility for, you had three M-53 machine-guns;

16 is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Those guns are mounted on tripods; is that so?

19 A. No. We had three machine-guns M-53 without tripods.

20 Q. Are those guns the ones which sometimes are called "Death Sowers"?

21 A. I don't know that they were called that. It is a machine-gun.

22 Q. Is it correct that the effective range for those guns was up to

23 1.000 metres; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were those guns made or manufactured to be used while mounted on a

Page 16257

1 tripod, is that the conventional use of them?

2 A. No, machine-gun M-53 can be used with a tripod and without a

3 tripod. We didn't receive a tripod, so we used it without one.

4 Q. Very well. What type of automatic rifle did you have?

5 A. We had automatic rifles, Kalashnikovs. That was Zastava make.

6 Q. And what was the effective range of that gun?

7 A. Well, you could fire 300, 400 metres. The range is probably

8 longer than that.

9 Q. You said or let me ask you: Is it your evidence that there were

10 artillery positions in Hresa?

11 A. At Hresa itself, no, because from the large fort it was possible

12 to see the entire Hresa so you would see it. I didn't personally see it.

13 But I know from others that it was in the wider area of Hresa, perhaps in

14 Crepovsko.

15 Q. Were there artillery positions in Hresa attached to any battalion

16 in that area or were they directly attached to the corps headquarters, do

17 you know?

18 A. I think they were attached to battalion, because when our lines

19 were at risk, I would call the battalion commander, and then the artillery

20 would fire. So I presumed that they were linked or attached to the

21 battalion.

22 Q. What was the name of your battalion commander?

23 A. Milan Plakalovic.

24 Q. And what was your rank while your were in the Mrkovici area?

25 A. I didn't have a rank.

Page 16258

1 Q. Did your battalion have any supporting mortar units?

2 A. Yes. In the battalion there was a platoon that had mortars.

3 Q. How many mortars did this platoon have?

4 A. I don't know. They were also located outside the territory of

5 Mrkovici and our area of responsibility. I know that they existed. The

6 battalion commander told me so, and they probably assisted us.

7 Q. Please just answer what I ask. You don't know how many mortars

8 they had, that's your answer. Do you know what type of mortars they had?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Why, may I ask, do you say that the supporting fire came from the

11 Hresa area? How do you know that?

12 A. I know the battalion command was located at Hresa, and from the

13 command we requested and occasionally you would be able to hear the

14 firing.

15 Q. Now, in the -- up until you left that region, did you hear mortars

16 being fired from anywhere in the area of Mrkovici?

17 A. No. I know Mrkovici very well because I was born there and it

18 wasn't there, not from the area of Mrkovici, while I was there, while I

19 was in Mrkovici. For later on, I don't know.

20 Q. So you never heard mortars being fired or artillery weapons being

21 fired from Mrkovici while you were there; is that your answer?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the name of the unit the brigade which was to the right

24 of your brigade as you face Sarajevo, what was that called?

25 A. I think it was called the Kosevo Brigade.

Page 16259

1 Q. Do you know whether that brigade had artillery?

2 A. I don't know. I couldn't say.

3 Q. Now, looking cross the city to Trebevic, do you know if there were

4 artillery guns and tanks that fired from VRS-controlled areas into the

5 city from Trebevic?

6 A. I don't know that and I never saw that, personally.

7 Q. You told us about hearing about certain mortar positions. Are you

8 saying that you never heard that there were tanks controlled by the VRS

9 which fired from Trebevic?

10 A. Trebevic is completely the opposite side, so personally I didn't

11 see them. I can't say for sure that there were or there weren't any.

12 Q. Very well. Apart from Hresa do you know where VRS artillery

13 positions encircling the city were located?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- Your Honour, my

16 assistant tells me that line 11 -- 1158, the answer of the witness in the

17 answer it says that he was able to see them. Could we please clarify.

18 That is page 53, line 11 -- line 17.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is that my --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is a problem in interpretation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, my paging is not correct. So the reference

22 would not be -- if you would please ask the witness to repeat the answer

23 and your question because I have some difficulties in finding it.

24 MR. STAMP: Very well.

25 Q. Witness, I think you did say that you never personally saw any

Page 16260

1 tanks from Trebevic?

2 A. That's correct, I never saw them personally at Trebevic, the VRS

3 tanks.

4 Q. Apart from Hresa, do you know where any VRS artillery, heavy

5 weaponry, tanks or whatever fired from into the city?

6 A. I was told that it was somewhere above Poljine, but I don't know

7 whether they fired at the town and on which occasions they fired. I

8 didn't see them personally so I don't know where they fired. I am not

9 aware of this, and on which occasions.

10 Q. Do you know of VRS heavy weapons firing from Borije?

11 A. While I was at Borije, no, there was nothing. At Borije I could

12 have seen this. I think it must have been a little further to the north.

13 Because of the layout of the terrain, that's why I didn't see that, I

14 couldn't see that.

15 Q. Did you go to the lines at the Sharpstone feature frequently or

16 did your responsibilities take you elsewhere?

17 A. You are referring to Spicasta Stijena, the Sharpstone feature?

18 Q. Yes, yes, I am.

19 A. The company command cause in the rear of the Sharpstone feature.

20 It was about 200 metres at the rear. I would occasionally go there. I

21 would occasionally go to Spicasta Stijena and visit the entire defence

22 line.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Just, perhaps, Mr. Stamp, for my information, are you

24 referring to the period when you were stationed in that area or after

25 November 1992? It is not quite clear to me.

Page 16261

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This all concerns the period

2 during which I was present in the Mrkovici area. And later I went from

3 Ilidza.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that was occasionally in -- so when you say

5 that you would visit the entire defence line, that was during the period

6 when you were stationed in Mrkovici, it was then that you went to

7 Spicasta Stijena?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP:

11 Q. What sort of weapons did you -- did your company have at

12 Spicasta Stijena?

13 A. Automatic rifles.

14 Q. And I take it that you fired those weapons in, as I have heard

15 before, in self-defence, in defence of your lines?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. I think you said that -- or let me ask you instead of paraphrasing

18 what you said. Is it correct that you or your soldiers who were along the

19 Sharpstone feature would only fire when the opposing forces were up there?

20 A. Yes, absolutely. Only in order to repel attack, it was only then

21 that we would open fire.

22 Q. In -- I take it from your answer, "yes, absolutely," you mean that

23 apart from that situation you would not open fire at all from

24 Spicasta Stijena?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 16262

1 Q. You said it was very risky to go to the edge. What made it risky?

2 A. The enemy side were -- covered Spicasta Stijena with fire, so

3 whoever went out to the Sharpstone feature could be killed.

4 Q. Covered it with fire from below or from where?

5 A. From Sedrenik, the Bakija cemetery, from Sedrenik the entrance to

6 the Sedam Suma road which leads to Mrkovici with mobile mortars, Browning

7 at the entrance to the Sedam Suma area, the Seven Woods.

8 Q. The mobile mortar which you speak of, did you ever see it?

9 A. No, I didn't. As I said earlier on, I couldn't see it. This is

10 information that I was provided with, but occasionally I was able to hear

11 it being fired from very brief period of time, and from various positions.

12 And they were indications that it was mobile, and that is the information

13 that I had received as well.

14 Q. You are saying it travelled through Sedrenik?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would it have been visible along the route that you drew on the

17 map from Trebevic?

18 A. No. Sedrenik is not easy to see from Trebevic. A mortar on the

19 route to Sedrenik, no.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. STAMP:

22 Q. Could I get this clear, Witness: Are you saying that you could

23 not see that route that you say that this vehicle travelled on from

24 Trebevic?

25 A. No. We weren't able to see that route from our positions.

Page 16263

1 Q. No, no. Did you have positions in Trebevic, on the mountain

2 Trebevic?

3 A. I heard that the Army of Republika Srpska was on Trebevic at the

4 time that I was present there.

5 Q. What I am asking you now is that the route that you showed us that

6 this vehicle is reported or was reported to you to have travelled, was

7 that route observable from Trebevic?

8 A. It is perhaps possible to see part of the road from Trebevic, but

9 a vehicle, a mobile vehicle transporting a mortar, no, I don't think it

10 would be possible to identify it as such.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. STAMP:

13 Q. The vehicle that you heard was transporting this mortar, the

14 intelligence information that you had in respect to it, was it available

15 to VRS units in Trebevic, do you think or do you know?

16 A. I don't know whether it was available. It was available to my

17 command, my battalion commander, but up until that time, at that time the

18 army wasn't really well connected, the communication lines weren't very

19 good.

20 Q. Did your unit fire at it?

21 A. No. We didn't have a position from which we would have been able

22 to destroy such a vehicle.

23 Q. Did you say that there was infantry firing from Sedrenik at

24 positions held by your unit?

25 A. Yes, from part of Sedrenik, if there was fighting in the entire

Page 16264

1 area of Sedrenik.

2 Q. When fire was directed to you from Sedrenik or that part of

3 Sedrenik, infantry fire, did your unit return the fire?

4 A. While I was there there were orders and we didn't respond to those

5 provocations unless we felt that a direct attack was being launched

6 against us. Only in the case of a direct attack would we open fire and

7 then there would be an intense exchange of fire.

8 Q. So you were acting according to orders that you were given?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And you would only return infantry fire into Sedrenik, if I may

11 use your words, when you felt that a direct attack was being launched

12 against you?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And if I may paraphrase or may I quote you again, you would open

15 fire "and then there would be an intense exchange of fire"; that's

16 correct?

17 A. Could you repeat that, please. I haven't understood you well.

18 Q. You said only in the case of a direct attack would we open fire

19 and then there would be an intense exchange of fire, that's what you said.

20 That is correct, is it?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. From what positions did you return infantry fire into Sedrenik

23 when it was necessary to do so?

24 A. The line of defence was seldom attacked in just one position.

25 Usually it took place along the entire line. There were certain places

Page 16265

1 that came under attack, but it was along the entire line.

2 Q. One moment. Just simple, simply, for the sake of the economy of

3 time. From what positions did you -- did your unit return fire into

4 Sedrenik when you thought it was necessary to do so?

5 A. From along the entire line we fired on those who were attacking

6 us, not on Sedrenik. We fired at men from the opposing side who were

7 attacking us.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for a clarification, Witness. When

9 you say "when they were attacking us" what do you actually mean? Do you

10 mean soldiers coming close to your lines or would you consider mortar fire

11 from a distance not to be part of an attack, if there was no movement of

12 troops close to you? What exactly -- because you refer to the word

13 "attack" several times -- what do you exactly mean by that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say "attack," and this is

15 what took place until November 1992, they never had artillery support

16 immediately. First the infantry would attack. So, I mean, when I say

17 "attack," I mean they would approach our lines. They wanted to take the

18 elevations that were of strategic importance. For us it was for defence

19 purposes and for them it was attack purposes. So this means the

20 Spicasta Stijena and the Mala Kula, the small fortress, so these places

21 were of strategic importance.

22 JUDGE ORIE: When you are talking about attacks you are talking

23 about troops trying to move forward closest to your lines, is that how I

24 have to understand it?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

Page 16266

1 JUDGE ORIE: And when you say there was an intense exchange of

2 fire, would you mean an exchange of fire between those, I would say, first

3 line of the BiH forces trying to move forward, or would the exchange of

4 fire also be with those in the rear? You said you never -- you didn't

5 fire in Sedrenik. You had exchange of fire with the, I would say, the

6 troops in the front. When you talk about this exchange of fire, was this

7 limited to those trying to move forward? And I am now talking about

8 infantry weapons.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When there was a direct attack, yes,

10 fire would be opened. If the exchange of fire lasted for a longer period

11 of time, we would then ask the battalion command if we felt that we were

12 in danger, we would ask for assistance and then they would use mortars or

13 artillery in the positions where we were most in danger.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But with your own weapons, did you ever fire to any

15 target not within this, I would say, first line or perhaps second line of

16 the BiH forces?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was there, we could only use

18 60-millimetre mortars for a few days. We tried a Browning in Sedrenik,

19 but we didn't have this -- we didn't have shells very often while I was

20 there. So we used the assistance of the battalion command, we used their

21 support.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And with rifles and machine-guns, you would fire on

23 what targets when you were attacked?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We fired at the men who were

25 attacking us. This area is covered by a forest. There is a forest there,

Page 16267

1 so we would fire at each other.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that with these rifles and

3 machine-guns you would never target anything in Sedrenik or perhaps even

4 further away, Bakija?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could only fire on Bakija from

6 Spicasta Stijena, if we were there. But the trenches or rather the line

7 was behind the Spicasta Stijena feature. From other positions it wasn't

8 possible to see the Bakija and Sedrenik areas because that area is a

9 wooded area. We -- in other areas we practically fought in the forest,

10 both our side and their side.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you say the area you are firing from was a

12 wooded area, do I understand you well?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, except in Spicasta Stijena.

14 Apart from Spicasta Stijena, everything else was a wooded area.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And from Spicasta Stijena you would have an

16 unobstructed view there, although it was dangerous to go there, as I

17 understand?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was possible to see, but it

19 was dangerous so we were behind the rock. And if the enemy soldiers came

20 to the rock, that is when we would fight.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Did any of the soldiers in your unit ever get fired at when they

25 were in the observation post at the Sharpstone feature?

Page 16268

1 A. Yes, that happened, but while I was there only one man was wounded

2 at that place. No one was killed. While I was there the observer would

3 only go to Spicasta Stijena occasionally, and the observer wouldn't go to

4 the most prominent point.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MR. STAMP:

7 Q. From the observation post, it was possible to shoot at positions

8 in Sedrenik?

9 A. Yes. If we weren't in danger of being shot by the enemy, it was

10 possible.

11 Q. You said you had two observation posts, is that so? Where was the

12 second one, could you tell me, please?

13 A. The second observation post, if you look towards the part of

14 Sarajevo which is under Muslim control, it was to the right of the

15 Mala Kula, about 200 metres to the right of Mala Kula, the small fortress.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Witness. Mr. President, my

17 learned senior counsel has been -- that is the cross-examination. May it

18 please you, Your Honours, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break anyhow. But Ms. Pilipovic, are

20 there any questions that you would like to put to the witness in the

21 re-examination? Yes. Then we will first adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00

22 and then the Defence will have an opportunity for re-examination.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Usher. Could you please escort the

Page 16269

1 witness into the courtroom.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP23, you will now be further examined by counsel

4 for the Defence. Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP23, during the cross-examination you said

8 that the BH Army was opening fire from a Browning at the access or the

9 entrance to the Sedam Suma, to the Seven Woods; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us a little more about what is a Browning?

12 A. A Browning is an anti-aircraft machine-gun which is 12.7

13 millimetre calibre and it has a very long range.

14 Q. When you say "long range" do you know what it is?

15 A. I can't tell you accurately. I think up to 5.000 metres, if not

16 more.

17 Q. When you told us on the entrance to the Seven Woods, can you tell

18 us whether from your positions, from Mala Kula, that is from the positions

19 of your company, were you able to see this Browning, you personally?

20 A. Yes. The observer was able to see it. A Browning has a very

21 specific sound. When it is firing, it's easy to locate it.

22 Q. And one more question. When you were answering the question from

23 a Presiding Judge, you said, we did not return fire in provocations, but

24 we responded to direct attacks.

25 Can you tell us, were you present when there were such direct

Page 16270

1 attacks?

2 A. Yes. Up to the beginning of November, I was there, I was present.

3 Q. Can you tell us how many people did you know took part in these

4 direct attacks?

5 A. You mean from the opposing side?

6 Q. Yes. Were you able to assess?

7 A. Approximately 100, sometimes up to 200, maybe even more people.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No

9 further questions.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Do you recall the line that you drew on one of the maps showing

15 the path of the mobile mortar in Sedrenik?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Might the witness be shown map 1801. Would

18 you, using the pointer, show us the same path on this map?

19 A. Just a moment so that I can see. It was -- on the other map it

20 was clearer. I had already indicated.

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Would you like to have a look on the other map

22 from before?

23 A. Yes. If I can have the previous map, it was clearer to me. I

24 know the streets, and then it is easier. I can see it more clearly, but

25 here on this map, I could do it approximately.

Page 16271

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That one, yes.

2 A. Yes. Sedrenik from the entrance to the Seven Woods, and then

3 towards -- through Mala Sedrenik, and then to Balina Kula, that's the

4 road.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: And using the other map you are not able to

6 draw this same line? To draw the same line --

7 A. Yes, I can try. I can try.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Please do that.

9 A. It is from about here and it goes through Sedrenik, Sedrenik, that

10 here is Mala Sedrenik and then this way to the street, Balina Kula Street,

11 here to the left.

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you mark the same line use a red pen.

13 A. I can try.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The line is not very visible. Please make it

15 thicker.

16 A. I think this is it.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No further questions, Mr. President. Thank

18 you, Witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for

20 you.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 [Interpretation] Sir, if you please, I'd like to ask you several

23 questions for clarification purposes. The first question is in relation

24 to your observation post at Mala Kula or near Mala Kula. Can you describe

25 to us what was this observation post composed of, what was it like?

Page 16272

1 A. It was on a prominent point, and it was just beginning, so it was

2 improvised. It was a kind of high point from which it was possible to

3 observe the territory of the enemy side.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but were you protected and

5 by what? And your view, was it something that -- was it an open view?

6 Were you hidden behind something? Behind a rock? A building? And how

7 many persons could be at the same time on this observation post?

8 A. On that position there were several people. It was just on the

9 line itself that observation post, about 5 metres in front of the first

10 line and there was just the rampart which could protect from the fire and

11 the view towards Ciglana and the city cemetery, the view was excellent.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Are you -- do you mean the city

13 cemetery of Bakija?

14 A. No. I meant the city cemetery of Bare, while Bakija is the

15 cemetery of the Islamic religious community, that is the difference.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But, yes, it comes behind

17 Sedrenik. You had a view of Sedrenik, didn't you?

18 A. No. From the observation post that I am talking about which

19 looked towards the part of Sarajevo under the Muslim control -- under

20 Muslim control, from Mala Kula to the right, you could see Ciglana, Zetra,

21 Ciglana tunnels, Zetra, Kosevo Hospital and all the way to Mala Glava.

22 You couldn't see anything towards Sedrenik because it is such a

23 configuration that you couldn't see the Sedrenik area.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And I believe you had two

25 observation posts. This applied to both those observation posts?

Page 16273

1 A. Yes. The observation post on the Sharpstone feature, from there

2 you couldn't see as much as you could see from the first observation post.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that from your

4 lines you were not able to see Sedrenik or Bakija or the barracks in

5 Bakija?

6 A. I am sorry. You misunderstood. From the observation post at

7 Sharpstone it was possible to see Bakija cemetery and the barracks Bakija.

8 That part of Sedrenik it was possible to see from the observation post at

9 the Sharpstone, but you couldn't see it from the other observation post.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am talking about both, either

11 one or the other. I am talking about posts, observation posts. So if I

12 understand you correctly at least from one observation post you were able

13 to see the cemetery and the barracks in Bakija, and one part of Sedrenik.

14 And from the other observation post you were able to see the other

15 cemetery and the Kosevo Hospital?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And from these observation posts

18 was there a possibility or at least a theoretical possibility to target,

19 to fire, therefore?

20 A. I replied to the Prosecutor. If there had been no firing, we

21 could have fired from the Sharpstone feature.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, during your

23 period or even after if you know something about this: In Sedrenik, this

24 part, was it inhabited? Were there civilians living there or were there

25 not civilians living there or are these kind of rear lines of the opposing

Page 16274

1 side?

2 A. At the end of April in 1992 when there were clashes that were more

3 and more frequent, that was at the end of April, the civilian population

4 from the first lines in Sedrenik moved and sheltered into the sheltered

5 parts. Because the soldiers were -- the troops were coming to the first

6 front line houses, except that a gentleman, that number two that was on

7 the piece of paper, asked me that in case that the operations continued

8 whether he could put -- place his family in Mrkovici where my parents

9 lived, in the depth, which is also not close to the line.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if I understand you correctly,

11 there were civilians but the civilians had withdrawn, so to speak, to the

12 rear part and they let the houses for the troops, and that was the third

13 line, if I understand you correctly?

14 A. Yes, you're right, that's how it was.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So, we are speaking about the

16 lines of the opposing side, the first, the second and the third. You

17 yourself, did you have one or more than one line?

18 A. On our side for the most part while I was there, there was one

19 line and in the houses that were 2 to 300 metres behind that line, there

20 were a certain number of troops that were -- ready in case of an attack,

21 they would be able to come out.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. You said that, as far

23 as I understood, you had a Browning but that you didn't have bullets, you

24 didn't have ammunition for it.

25 A. I didn't understand what type of weapon you said.

Page 16275

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am speaking about a Browning.

2 A. No, I didn't say Browning. I said we had a 60-millimetre mortar

3 for which while we were there -- while I was there for the most part,

4 there were no shells, and I didn't say that we had a Browning.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am reading what you said in

6 English on page 61 [In English] "We tried Browning in Sedrenik but we

7 didn't have this, we didn't have shells very often while I was there, so

8 we used the assistance of the battalion."

9 [Interpretation] End of quote. So did I understand you correctly

10 that you had a weapon of this calibre, but that perhaps you lacked

11 ammunition or was this...?

12 A. There was a misunderstanding. I said that Browning in Sedrenik it

13 was controlled by the opposing side.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, please, could you clarify

15 this.

16 A. Browning was at the entrance to the Sedam Suma to the Seven Woods

17 on the road to Mrkovici, and this was in the hands of the opposing side.

18 And what we did is that we asked for the assistance of the battalion to

19 neutralise this. That's what I said. And that's the truth.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. My last

21 question is in relation to exactly what you mentioned, is that you asked

22 for the intervention of the battalion in the event of an attack. You

23 asked for them to help you, to be deployed. So did you mean that that

24 would be an infantry deployment when there was an attack by the enemy

25 side? So militarily speaking, when you were on the positions, on the

Page 16276

1 line, how would you imagine this intervention? Would it be a shelling or

2 what kind of deployment would it be? Would it be infantry deployment?

3 How would they assist you?

4 Where was the battalion targeting, what were the battalion's

5 targets, in order to assist you?

6 A. Yes. Before that I was warned, I was told that I could ask for

7 the intervention, the assistance of the battalion. If I made an

8 assessment that the lines of defence were certainly at risk, rather than

9 me asking for assistance out of fear, and that's how I behaved, that's how

10 I acted. When the lines of defence were truly at risk, when there was a

11 risk that we would lose a line of defence, that it would fall, that's when

12 I mostly asked for the assistance of the battalion.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I understood, but their

14 intervention, what was it consist of? When you say that they were

15 intervening in the event, when the infantry troops were attacking? So if

16 I understand there was combat, there was confrontation between two sides.

17 So what were they targeting? What were their targets?

18 A. They fired along the line where the infantry was attacking and

19 into the depth. For instance, the location of their Browning, the Bakija

20 cemetery, near Karavdina house where there were mortars that were active.

21 So as far as I know, for the most part, their task was to target those

22 points that were putting us at risk.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So if I understand you

24 correctly they would riposte, they would respond by attacking that part of

25 Sedrenik and Bakija; is that what their intervention was?

Page 16277

1 A. The locations in Sedrenik where their heavy weaponry was located.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So they were attacking, they were

3 targeting the heavy weapons of the other side?

4 A. Yes, yes, you're right. That's correct.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have got a few questions for you as well.

7 First, a clarification in respect of your last answer. You said

8 when you replied to a question of Judge El Mahdi: "They fired along the

9 line where the infantry was attacking, and into the depth." And then you

10 explained that that was the location of the Browning or the Bakija

11 cemetery. Wasn't it risky to fire along the lines where the two opposite

12 forces were so close to each other?

13 A. Yes. It would have been risky if they had fired at their first

14 front line. It was assumed that we could handle that by our infantry on

15 the first line and they would be firing on the second and on the third

16 line and on the points where their heavy weapons were located, but not on

17 the first line. If there was need, then an intervention unit would

18 arrive, infantry, in order to assist because otherwise it would have been

19 very risky for us, if they were targeting their first line.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, your answer was they fired along the

21 line where the infantry was attacking and as I heard you explain before,

22 that was the front troops moving towards your positions?

23 A. I am sorry, there is a misunderstanding. They never attacked the

24 first line. They would possibly target the second line, the closest

25 mortars, but not the first line because that would have put us at risk.

Page 16278

1 JUDGE ORIE: And the second lines, at what distance were they

2 approximately from the first lines? If I look at what you indicated on

3 the photographs, how much would that be, first line to the second line?

4 A. 50 to 80 metres.

5 JUDGE ORIE: 50 to 80 metres. Were these mortar crews experienced

6 enough to target with such precision that they would not accidently hit

7 the first line close to where you were, but instead hit the second line?

8 A. I don't know. I don't personally know the people who manned the

9 mortars and I don't know how they acted. It was up to me only to report

10 to the battalion command and then someone in the battalion command relayed

11 orders to a mortar platoon. How professional they were, I don't know.

12 But they didn't put us in danger.

13 JUDGE ORIE: They didn't put you in danger, but they were

14 targeting the second line of the BiH forces; is that how I have to

15 understand your answer?

16 A. Yes, you're right.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I have another question in respect

18 of the mortars of which you told us that they were fired from the Hresa

19 area. How far would the area have been from where you were located? So,

20 if you were either at Spicasta Stijena or at Mala Kula, how far would the

21 Hresa area be from where mortars were fired, if you needed assistance?

22 A. Hresa was -- Hresa itself, it was 3 to 4 kilometers away, as the

23 crow flies. But where the mortars were located exactly, we weren't in a

24 position to know this.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You do not know the exact positions?

Page 16279

1 A. I unofficially found out that they were in the wider area of Hresa

2 towards Crepovsko as I said, a little to the left of Hresa.

3 JUDGE ORIE: By hearing, could you with a sufficient degree of

4 certainty determine that these mortars were firing from the Hresa area?

5 A. That was when the fighting was progressing, I could hear

6 explosions from the enemy, but shells being fired itself, no I couldn't

7 hear that because of the action.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then how could you make a distinction

9 between 500 metres more to the west or 500 metres more to the east by just

10 listening to the shells being fired, when they were fired at a distance of

11 a couple of kilometers?

12 A. I apologise. I didn't understand that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that mortars were not fired from

14 Mrkovici, but they were fired from the Hresa area. And as far as I -- if

15 I understood you well, it was by hearing that you could make the

16 distinction whether they came from the Hresa area or from other areas. My

17 question is: How could you at a distance of a couple of kilometers make

18 such a distinction as to the source of fire just by hearing, just by

19 listening?

20 A. The battalion command was at Hresa, and Mrkovici is the

21 battalion's final point. As I said, they could only be to the left of us.

22 And there were rumours, nothing official, that they were in the area of

23 Hresa. I don't know what the smaller places are called, I think from

24 Hresa towards Crepovsko, that was more or less a secret that everyone knew

25 about.

Page 16280

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, these were rumours. How -- well, you were very

2 definite in your answer that mortars were never fired from Mrkovici. How

3 could you be so sure about that?

4 A. On several occasions fire was opened from 60-millimetre mortars.

5 While I was there, there were no other mortars in Mrkovici, because I was

6 born in Mrkovici. I could have seen that myself. I would have known

7 about that. Nothing could have happened without me knowing about it. So

8 up until the end of November, there were none in Mrkovici.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So your answer is that you never saw them and you

10 would have seen them if they would have been there. So, it is rather a

11 conclusion on the basis of what you observed by looking at what happened

12 in Mrkovici than to listening to the sounds of mortars being fired; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be shown the photographs, I

16 think they are now D1802, and 1803, two connecting photographs. And could

17 the usher please put them so on the ELMO so that they make one.

18 Mr. DP23, this view would be from what point, in your experience?

19 Where would the camera have been to have this view, have this picture

20 taken?

21 A. This could have been taken from below the Spicasta Stijena to the

22 west. I think that's where the photograph was taken from.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And from that point you would have this

24 relatively unobstructed view of not only the Sedrenik area, but also on

25 the Old City?

Page 16281

1 A. No. No. From the lines that we were positioned at, it was not

2 possible to see this --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I am not asking you about your positions. But if you

4 say this was taken from below the Spicasta Stijena, would this then be the

5 relatively unobstructed view from a lower position where you could see the

6 Old City and the Sedrenik area?

7 A. Yes, from below probably, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- yes?

9 A. From that lower position there was no obstacle to vision.

10 JUDGE ORIE: At the higher position what were the obstacles? If

11 you would go higher up, what would be the obstacles?

12 A. There was a pine wood and a layout of the terrain below. But on

13 some of the photographs, in some of the photographs you can't see a lot

14 of that forest. It has apparently been cut down.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the woods at a higher position, what else

16 would obstruct the view?

17 A. The layout of the terrain itself. Where we were positioned, the

18 layout of the terrain itself.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you would be on the ridge of the Spicasta Stijena,

20 would you then where the terrain, as far as I understand, would not

21 obstruct your view any more, would you then have a similar look or if you

22 would be at the ridge, and I do understand that the ridge was how far

23 exactly from your positions?

24 A. The most prominent position of that stone was about 20 metres from

25 the positions and 5 metres from the observation post. We could see these

Page 16282

1 houses, not these ones here. So it was possible to see this part, this

2 part here, and then this cemetery on Grlica hill, and then the

3 terrain -- there is a slope in the terrain and then you could see

4 this -- these houses here. And then further on towards the barracks and

5 the Bakija cemetery. But from here, from the cemetery --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please with your pointer go to

7 approximately the middle of the photograph, the two photographs and

8 indicate until what point you could -- you would have a view. So you

9 just -- yes, from there. Could you tell us what houses you still could

10 see and then where you could not see any more.

11 A. We could see this part to the right, not this house.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No. Could you please go a bit left to the left of

13 that line you just indicated before.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, approximately there. What house could you see

16 and what house -- if you indicate the last house you would see.

17 A. To the right.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that a house you could still see? Please

19 put your pointer on the photograph so that there is no -- you could still

20 see that house? Yes? Please move it -- leave it where you were.

21 A. That.

22 JUDGE ORIE: A little bit to the left, a little bit to the

23 left -- for example the last house with a red roof you just indicated near

24 to that what seems to be kind of a dome. Could you -- if you look at this

25 line, could you explain to me what would take your view more upwards on

Page 16283

1 that photograph? I mean, if you could see for example that point you are

2 just indicating, what would obstruct your view further up in the direction

3 of the city and further up the hill at the other side of the valley? I

4 mean, if you could see that house you are pointing at now, what would take

5 your view --

6 A. I understand.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- Further up in the direction of the city?

8 A. I understand you. The layout or the Sharpstone feature is here,

9 and here to the left, that's where you have the Sharpstone feature. And

10 the layout of the ground is search that our vision was obstructed from

11 this point, the vision further afield over there --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could you explain --

13 A. -- from that position where we were located. Only when you

14 descended five metres down was it possible to see further away. It was

15 important to descend 5 metres lower down. That is as far as that is

16 concerned. But as far as this urban part of town is concerned, you have

17 the social club here in Sedrenik, and these houses here, and there is a

18 slope, a steep slope from these houses and it can't be seen.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. But if you go back to the social

20 club in Sedrenik, what you just indicated, you just indicate would the

21 pointer the social club in Sedrenik. Could you please point at it again.

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What could possibly obstruct the view if you

24 could see this building from anything further in the direction of the city

25 or to the hill at the opposite? Would that be clouds or would that

Page 16284

1 be -- what would obstruct your view? I am just trying to understand why

2 you indicate to us that you can see the buildings in the lower part of the

3 photograph, but not anything in the higher part of the photograph. I am

4 just trying to understand you.

5 Why could you see the social club and why couldn't you see the

6 buildings just further away from the social club?

7 A. The layout was such that we could see that and then we could see

8 the road and above the road, but the rest is a valley. The layout is a

9 valley. The layout of the terrain prevented us from seeing certain parts.

10 I said what you can see changes a lot. If you move 5 metres, but the

11 layout of the terrain is that under the -- below the social club --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that you couldn't see what was

13 below the social club. That's what I understand. But what I still have

14 difficulties in understanding is why you could not see anything which on

15 the photograph is up from the social club. Below I understand, but from

16 the social club up in the direction of, let's say, the other side of the

17 valley.

18 Why couldn't you see that if you could see the social club?

19 That's, as a matter of fact, my question.

20 A. From the observation post the club was to the right of us, from

21 the observation post itself. The layout of the Sharpstone feature itself

22 was such that part of our vision was obstructed. Here, there was a small

23 hill on Spicasta Stijena itself and the pine wood. So this is what our

24 vision -- our field of vision would look like here and here and this part

25 of Grlica hill and up until this collection of houses.

Page 16285

1 JUDGE ORIE: Are you now telling us that you couldn't see the

2 terrain closest the Spicasta Stijena? Was your view obstructed lower down

3 or was your view obstructed further up from what you see in the

4 photograph? Please indicate what part you could see and what part you

5 could not see. You've drawn a line, more or less.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you see that part where your pointer is now?

8 A. This part, more or less. Perhaps not these houses here. But we

9 could see this. There is a hill there and then we could see -- we could

10 see this part here --

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, now further up in the direction of the

12 opposite side of the valley, why couldn't you see the houses? If you move

13 your pointer now above, just right up.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, right up in the middle --

16 A. Up. This point here. I understand. Because of the layout of the

17 terrain itself.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

19 A. We could see the main road here, the ring road and the part above

20 the ring road, but everything else was not in our field of vision since

21 the terrain is like this.

22 JUDGE ORIE: What do you call the "ring road" what road is that?

23 A. The transit road.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is the transit road the road on the other side of the

25 Miljacka river that leads up to the Pale direction?

Page 16286

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 A. Yes, that's it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clarifications. Mr. DP23, this

5 concludes your evidence in this court. I'd like to thank you very much

6 for coming the very long way to The Hague. We are all aware what a

7 journey it is for you, and especially for answering all the questions of

8 both parties and the questions of the Bench as well. And I hope you have

9 a safe trip home again.

10 Madam Usher --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out

13 of the courtroom.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, if we could deal with the documents,

16 that would be fine, and otherwise we would have to wait until tomorrow

17 morning.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Document MFI.29 under seal, list of two names;

19 D1800, map of Sarajevo marked by witness; D1799 under seal, pseudonym

20 sheet; D347, photograph showing Hum hill; D1801, map, sniping incident 3

21 marked by witness; D1802, photograph P3758 marked by witness; D1803, photo

22 P3760 marked by witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The documents are admitted into evidence.

24 MFI-29 it says, and D1799 under seal. Perhaps just for the completeness

25 of the transcript, I should have indicated with better precision where

Page 16287

1 approximately the witness has situated the social club, I think he called

2 it, which is a little bit just on P3760 just where the -- above the area

3 where we found many trees and less houses, and approximately one-fourth of

4 the left of that photograph. So a little bit right up from where we have

5 an oval -- an oval structure in the foreground of that photograph.

6 We will then adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow morning, same courtroom.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

8 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

9 the 26th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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