Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16383

1 Wednesday, 27 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom, especially those assisting us. Before we give an opportunity

7 for the Defence to call its next witness, Madam Registrar, I think we

8 first should call the case and then deal with the documents, first. Would

9 you please call the case.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

11 Stanislav Galic.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

13 We'd like first to deal with the documents that have been

14 introduced by the witness that was examined yesterday. Could you assist

15 us.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1804, under seal, pseudonym sheet;

17 Exhibit D1805, map marked by Witness DP50; Exhibit P3764, black and white

18 photograph -- photocopy of photo of M-48; P3765, black and white

19 photocopy.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Since there are no

21 objections, all these documents are admitted into evidence, D1804,

22 pseudonym sheet under seal.

23 Ms. Pilipovic, are you ready to --

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

25 Your Honour, yes, I am ready for the next witness. With your leave, I'd

Page 16384

1 like to raise an issue which may come up which is that one of the hearing

2 on the 8th of January, and we'd just like to ask for the opinion or the

3 position of the Chamber so that we can resolve this problem. We will have

4 a problem regarding the arrival of witnesses on the 7th of January, which

5 is Christmas Day. The Defence would like to have a schedule and a

6 position of your Chamber, either today or the next day, and also we would

7 like to then see how we are going to organise the witnesses for that

8 period.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The suggestion of the Chamber was that you

10 would, if possible, call a witness on the 8th of January who is not of the

11 Orthodox religion. Since in other religions, Christmas Day is usually on

12 the 25th of December. So, therefore, if you would have a witness who does

13 not have his Christmas Day on the 7th of December, he could arrive on the

14 7th of December, and then we could continue on the 8th.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has given

16 it some thought, but we will not be able to confirm the arrival of another

17 witness who doesn't celebrate this holiday for the reason that it is only

18 after we finish this part of the case, that is mid-December, that we will

19 or end of December that we will know which witness will arrive when, if we

20 are talking about the hearings in January.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber has decided that it will respect

22 the Orthodox holidays, but to the extent necessary. That means that we

23 are losing two days in court and the Chamber fully accepts that, but a

24 third day would not be acceptable in the eyes of the Chamber. So,

25 therefore, if you say I cannot yet schedule, then perhaps you should

Page 16385

1 schedule in a -- in such a way that you have to find someone on your list

2 and then perhaps it will not be the preferred order to call this witness

3 at that very moment, but that's then perhaps one of the perhaps the price

4 you have to pay for the full respect the Chamber gives to the Christmas,

5 the Orthodox Christmas. So I would very much like the Defence to find out

6 whether a witness could be found that could be heard on the 8th, and, of

7 course, it is -- the Chamber expects that it is someone who is not

8 celebrating Christmas on the 7th of January.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in any case, we will

10 think about this, but obviously I will be working on the 7th and I will be

11 here. I will discuss this with my co-counsel whether we will be in a

12 position to have a witness ready for the 8th. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber expects you to have a witness ready

14 for the 8th. Then we also had the outstanding issue of maps on which the

15 parties would inform the Chamber. Perhaps if that could be done at this

16 very moment.

17 MR. IERACE: Good morning, Mr. President. You yesterday stated

18 the preference that the Defence and Prosecution discuss it first and see

19 if there was any basis for agreement. I spoke to Madam Pilipovic

20 yesterday afternoon and she wishes me to speak to Piletta-Zanin, to

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin and there will not be an opportunity -- there has not

22 been an opportunity for that to happen because he is still on his way back

23 to The Hague, as I understand it. So I have arranged a meeting this

24 afternoon with Mr. Piletta-Zanin and Madam Pilipovic to inform them of

25 what we have in mind and discuss it. So in those circumstances it would

Page 16386

1 seem that perhaps tomorrow would be a more appropriate time.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we will hear from you tomorrow. Then,

3 Ms. Pilipovic, I understood that you are ready to call your next witness.

4 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

7 understand?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of

10 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

11 you --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

14 but the truth. I am informed that you would prefer to have a Bible with

15 you when making this declaration. As you will see from the text of the

16 declaration, it's neutral as far as the religion is concerned. If it

17 would add something for you personally to have a Bible with you when

18 making the declaration, nothing in the Rules opposes against it, but the

19 text you'll have to pronounce should be the text we find in the Rules.

20 That text will be handed out to you now by the usher. May I invite you to

21 make that solemn declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 16387

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I am just checking on whether this

2 witness is already in the list of protective measures. Could you -- I

3 have not yet mentioned his name. Let me just check on my list.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the submission

5 dated 25th of November the Defence refers to the submissions from the 25th

6 of September and 21st of October regarding the pseudonym and facial

7 distortion asked for this witness, and in the submission of the 25th of

8 November, the Defence also submitted a slightly enlarged summary regarding

9 the protective measures sought.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am just checking on whether we have a

11 decision on the protective measures or not. No, we have not. The

12 additional information you've given, would that create -- would that give

13 rise to any objection from the Prosecution? If not, then the decision is

14 now given orally that protective measures are effective in respect of

15 you. And I was informed that they were, as a matter of fact, in effect

16 when you entered this courtroom, so that was perhaps a bit too early, but

17 we are on the safe side. So protective measures have been granted.

18 Ms. Pilipovic -- and the protective measures are pseudonym, that

19 is DP19, if I am well informed, Ms. Pilipovic?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And facial distortion. Please proceed.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 WITNESS: WITNESS DP19

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

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Page 16389

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP19, good morning.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Before I start asking you questions, I am going to hand you a

4 document that you will look at, please. And if you can confirm whether

5 the information contained on the sheet is correct, please.

6 A. The information on the sheet is correct.

7 Q. Mr. DP19, thank you.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind that

9 always when we start the examination-in-chief we ask certain questions

10 that could reveal his identity and in order to obtain a more substansive

11 information, I wanted to ask for private session, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will turn into private session.

13 [Private session]

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Page 16391

1 [redacted]

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3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE ORIE: It is confirmed on my screen that we are in open

5 session. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

7 Q. Mr. DP19, considering that you told us where you lived and you

8 worked, in the course of the examination we will be speaking about the

9 period from September 1992 until August 1994. In September, in the area

10 where you lived, you lived and you worked there, can you tell us how were

11 you engaged and where?

12 A. In September, I lived and worked as I have explained earlier in

13 the municipality of Hadzici, and I went about my business every day and

14 worked and lived there. However, on the 8th of May sometime at about

15 12.00, 12.00 noon, as far as I can recall, the maintenance institute, all

16 workers of other nationalities left that institute, Muslims and Croats,

17 and only a part of the personnel remained to work there. We didn't know

18 why that was.

19 Q. Mr. DP19, I am sorry, I have to interrupt you. What I asked you

20 was whether in September 1992 --

21 A. In September 1992, I was on the line, I was on the first front

22 line.

23 Q. When you say that you were on the first front line, can you please

24 clarify. In what capacity and where were these first front lines? Where

25 were you?

Page 16392

1 A. I was there in the capacity of an ordinary soldier, a private. I

2 was on the line at the foot of Mount Igman in the village of Kastici.

3 Q. When you say that in 1992 you were on the line, perhaps I

4 misunderstood, was it at the foot of Igman, below?

5 A. At the foot of Mount Igman, yes.

6 Q. You tell us when was this line established?

7 A. That line was established much earlier, much earlier.

8 Q. Mr. DP19, when you say "much earlier" can you tell us when that

9 was?

10 A. Immediately after the conflict broke out, that was sometime in

11 May.

12 Q. Mr. DP19, can you tell us what was the ethnic composition of the

13 municipality of Hadzici?

14 A. The ethnic composition of the municipality of Hadzici of the urban

15 part of the actual town, that was half and half, 50-50, considering the

16 municipality of Hadzici is slightly larger and then it would include also

17 the villages that surrounds it. That's where slightly the Muslim

18 population was in majority, probably 74 to 75 per cent in respect of other

19 ethnicities.

20 Q. When you tell us that the line was established much earlier, can

21 you tell us how did it happen, how did it occur that these lines were

22 established?

23 A. If I have understood your question, you are asking me about the

24 beginning of the war itself; is that correct?

25 Q. Yes, it is, Mr. DP19.

Page 16393

1 A. Well, just a moment ago I perhaps -- I started to answer to you

2 are question perhaps in a confused manner. But as I said a moment ago, on

3 the 8th of May, the maintenance institute, all the nationalities except

4 the Serb nationality workers, they all left. We didn't know what was

5 happening. We didn't know what was going on. A number of people who

6 remained there and to protect the institute, to continue to work, normally

7 to carry out their duties, they experienced shooting on the institute

8 itself, and I believe that is how the war started.

9 Q. Mr. DP19, I am going to interrupt you. Are you telling us that

10 there was a division that occurred along ethnic lines in the municipality

11 of Hadzici?

12 A. Well, the division occurred much earlier, in 1992, immediately

13 following the referendum, and the referendum was only answered by Muslims,

14 as far as I know. Nobody else. And already the division occurred then.

15 And following the February in 1992, because I was the head of the

16 restaurant, I experienced that one of the workers said to me: "We have

17 counted ourselves. We are not afraid of you." That was a cook who worked

18 for me and his name was Hujic Rasid.

19 Q. Mr. DP19, thank you. When you were talking about the lines, how

20 were these lines established in relation to the municipality of Hadzici?

21 I mean, what lines are you talking about?

22 A. I am talking about demarcation lines, that is at the -- in one

23 moment we just consolidated ourselves, we organised ourselves as a unit in

24 terms of the institute and the Territorial Defence, which had to protect

25 the institute as a factory, and obviously also civilian population which

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Page 16395

1 was already down there. So we tried to organise ourselves, the population

2 which was living on the border areas so that we can -- so that we can be

3 there. That's very near the institute, very near.

4 Q. Mr. DP19, just a moment.

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to speak a bit slower. Every word you

6 say will be interpreted into a language we understand and the

7 interpreters, with your speed, might have some problems. And we'd really

8 like to hear what you tell us. Please proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. DP19, you mentioned the establishment of the demarcation

11 lines, between whom exactly?

12 A. Between the Muslims who had left their houses a long time ago, who

13 had left their villages. And on the other side, the Serbs who had

14 remained in the city itself, and the civilian population, there families,

15 et cetera.

16 Q. Mr. DP19, you told us that you worked in a technical and

17 maintenance institute, that the citizens of Hadzici organised themselves

18 into a Territorial Defence in order to protect the technical and

19 maintenance institute. Can you tell us what the purpose of the technical

20 and maintenance institute was? What sort of a work organisation was it?

21 A. Before the war broke out, the technical and maintenance institute

22 was involved in all repairs -- in the repairs of all weapons of the former

23 JNA, Yugoslav People's Army.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP19, in 1992, September 1993, August 1994, do you

25 know whether the technical and maintenance institute functioned during

Page 16396

1 that period?

2 A. In September 1992 and in 1994, the technical and maintenance

3 institute remained where it was and continued to function. But it was for

4 the Army of Republika Srpska that was subsequently established.

5 Q. Mr. DP19, can you tell us at what capacity the technical and

6 maintenance institute worked during that period, the period is 1992,

7 1993, and 1994?

8 A. It worked at reduced capacity because perhaps 200 workers remained

9 within the institute. We tried to repair the weapons that we had all the

10 time and make them function properly.

11 Q. Mr. DP19, thank you.

12 MR. STAMP: This is not an objection. I do not at this point know

13 the relevance, but perhaps we could have the witness indicate the source

14 of his knowledge about the capacity of a weapons maintenance unit in

15 Hadzici, when he told us that he spent his time in that period on the

16 front lines in a village elsewhere. So, perhaps just for the record we

17 could know exactly what is the basis of his knowledge.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please clarify, Ms. Pilipovic.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. DP19, can you tell us with regard to the answer you gave to my

21 question, you stated that the institute worked at reduced capacity. Do

22 you have direct knowledge of this or did someone tell you about this? If

23 someone told you about this, could you be a little more precise.

24 A. Perhaps it is difficult for me to find my bearings in all of this

25 because I am not well -- very well familiar with the legal terminology. I

Page 16397

1 said that when the war broke out I was in the institute, that was on the

2 8th of May. I was there for a very short period of time. As I was a

3 worker who dealt with logistics in the institute, I know how many people

4 came to have meals there. And that is why I said that I knew at what

5 capacity the technical and maintenance institute was working. But very

6 quickly, very soon, I was transferred to the front line, as this was

7 necessary, from the institute.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my better understanding, when were you

9 transferred to the front lines?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four or five days later. I think it

11 was the 12th or the 13th.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The question now is -- that is still in May, as far

13 as I understand. Now, the question is the basis of your knowledge on the

14 reduced functioning of the institute on from September 1992 up until

15 August 1994?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand. What do you

17 mean, what is the basis?

18 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that you knew that there were

19 less -- there was less capacity because you knew the number of people

20 getting their meals. But when once you left approximately mid-May, how

21 would you know on from that moment what the capacity of the institute

22 was? Because you would not see the people getting their meals, isn't it?

23 So there must have been another way of knowing it.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard about this from people

25 who would bring us food, who would bring food to the positions. And as I

Page 16398

1 said earlier on, only about 200 employees remained in the technical and

2 maintenance institute. I think that that's my answer.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you heard from those people who brought

4 you food in your positions?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. DP19, when you say that you were at the lines and positions,

9 can you tell us how were you organised in terms of military

10 establishment?

11 A. It was the size of a company. Was it the size of a company, is

12 that what you are asking me?

13 Q. Yes, sir. I am asking you about September 1992. In terms of

14 establishment, were you a company and how many men were there in the unit?

15 A. In September 1992, there were a number of men because from May

16 until September the unit was brought up to strength as refugees came from

17 other areas and to be more specific, Zenica. I don't remember the exact

18 period. But in terms of establishment we had perhaps grown into a

19 battalion, that was in September 1992. That's what the situation must

20 have been then.

21 Q. Mr. DP19, you said that in September 1992 you were in a

22 battalion. But can you tell us where the command of your battalion was

23 located?

24 A. In Zunovica.

25 Q. Mr. DP19, when you say in Zunovica, can you tell us what sort of

Page 16399

1 feature this is?

2 A. This was a feature which was part of the former JNA, which

3 belonged to the former JNA, an engineer unit, Karlo Batko, that was the

4 full address. It was one of the military institutions.

5 Q. Mr. DP19, did you personally go to that facility?

6 A. Well, it is not just one facility. There are several facilities,

7 depending on the needs of the JNA at the time. There were buildings,

8 offices there, social canteens, et cetera.

9 Q. Mr. DP19, you said that the battalion command was located there,

10 in those premises. Do you know, do you personally know whether there were

11 any members of the former JNA there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When you say "no," is this on the basis of your personal knowledge

14 or is it something that you were told?

15 A. It is on the basis of my own personal knowledge.

16 Q. Can you tell us what you know exactly, you yourself?

17 A. I know that at that time none of the active-duty officers was with

18 us, apart from those from the reserve forces and these are men whom I

19 knew, I would see them on a daily basis, and I cooperated with them, et

20 cetera.

21 Q. Mr. DP19, are you telling us that the JNA had withdrawn from that

22 territory?

23 A. Yes, exactly. The JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew and

24 took everything it could with it. Certain things remained, I don't know

25 how much. It wasn't something that interested me, but as early as May

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Page 16401

1 1992, the JNA had left that area and taken everything with it, as I said.

2 Q. Mr. DP19, you mentioned your position, your line, you said at the

3 foot of Mount Igman. Can you tell us something about those demarcation

4 lines which were in the area where you were located? Can you tell us what

5 the positions of these demarcation lines were for both armies in that

6 territory? Do you know anything about this? Could you provide us with

7 further details about this?

8 A. Well, as an ordinary soldier, what could I know, apart from the

9 fact that we dug trenches in order to protect our lives, to protect

10 ourselves. I think that the enemy side did the same. And when I say "the

11 enemy side," I mean the Muslims.

12 Q. Mr. DP19, when you said that the urban part of the town of

13 Hadzici, the urban part of the municipality of Hadzici had 50 per cent

14 Muslims and 50 per cent Serbs, and you said that the rural parts had more

15 Muslims. Did such a situation remain in the course of the war and did it

16 change? When I say "in the course of the war," I mean from September

17 1992. So what was the ethnic composition in that area and what did the

18 lines look like?

19 A. Most of the inhabitants of the town centre, they were mostly

20 Serbian, and there were some Croats, perhaps they were civilians, whereas

21 the Muslims had left earlier on. They pulled out with what they had left,

22 those who could leave had left, children, women, elderly people and some

23 livestock from certain villages had been taken away, too.

24 Q. Mr. DP19, you mentioned the demarcation lines, can you tell us how

25 far the demarcation lines were or what the distance was between the

Page 16402

1 demarcation lines between the Serbs who had organised themselves in that

2 area and the Muslims who were also in that area?

3 A. Since we were down below at the periphery of the town, they were

4 about 500 metres from us as the crow flies, not more than that.

5 Q. When you say that you were down below, what did you mean?

6 A. Towards the town itself, let's say Igman is far away. They were

7 already there. We were in the village of Kastici, that's at the foot of

8 Mount Igman. That's what I meant to --

9 Q. You mentioned Mount Igman and your positions in relation to

10 Igman. Can you tell us in that area where your lines were and in the

11 period that you were present there, September 1992, can you tell us

12 whether there was any fighting in that area?

13 A. There was fighting all the time from May up until September. Up

14 until the end of the year 1992, there was a large-scale fighting because

15 they tried to break through our front lines every day and enter the town.

16 Q. Can you tell us how long you remained at that line?

17 A. Until the beginning of 1993, until February, which is when the

18 Army of Republika Srpska had already organised itself and it was necessary

19 to establish a military canteen so that the soldiers could be given food

20 on a daily basis. As I was qualified for this in terms of my military

21 occupational specialty, I was made responsible for the canteen, and I did

22 that until the end of the war, from February until the end of the war.

23 Q. Mr. DP19, when you say that the Army of Republika Srpska was

24 formed and that you were engaged elsewhere from February, can you tell us

25 in the area of the municipality of Hadzici, which is a part of the town of

Page 16403

1 Sarajevo, when were the military authorities established and the military

2 functions of the Army of Republika Srpska?

3 A. Well, this was an ongoing process, from June to September 1992,

4 and up until the end of 1993. As I said, units were brought up to

5 strength every day as people arrived, refugees from other areas. So

6 anyone fit for military service was engaged. I apologise, but at the

7 moment it is difficult for me to be precise. I said in 1993 it was

8 necessary to establish a military canteen and so that's the period that it

9 concerns, from May up until that time.

10 Q. Mr. DP19, you said that in September in terms of establishment you

11 were in a battalion. And was that unit present throughout the conflict?

12 A. Don't hold it against me if I misunderstand your question

13 occasionally. I think I have understood this now. Throughout that time

14 it wasn't just the battalion there, but the units also grew and they

15 developed, so an Igman Brigade was also formed, which later consisted of

16 three battalions and even later of four. And I know this on the basis of

17 my own experience.

18 Q. Do you personally know when the Igman Brigade was formed in that

19 area?

20 A. Well, I don't have that information, but I know that it was from

21 June to September, to the end of the year, up until the end of the year,

22 something like that.

23 Q. Mr. DP19, while you were at the line at the foot of Igman, you

24 said that there was fighting. Can you tell us how you were armed and how

25 the members of your company were armed? What weapons did you use and

Page 16404

1 similarly, I'd like to ask you the same question for the BH Army. Can you

2 tell us anything about this with regard to that area?

3 A. Our army, the Army of Republika Srpska had infantry weapons,

4 automatic and semi-automatic rifles. And the other side also had infantry

5 weapons, and they also had some large-calibre weapons.

6 Q. When you say "large-calibre weapons," do you personally know the

7 calibre concerned?

8 A. Yes, I do. I know for certain that in the Pazarici Barracks, I

9 don't know how to describe it, a unit of the artillery educational centre

10 remained there, regiment with young cadets. I know this. I've got to go

11 back --

12 Q. Mr. DP19, since we don't have much time, when you say that there

13 was a regiment in Pazarici, when did you find out about what there was

14 there?

15 A. I think it was the 19th or 20th of May because I happen to be at

16 home then, and I went to the technical and maintenance institute to see

17 the men from the logistics section. I spoke to the drivers, to

18 Dobrica Micic and Zivko Tesic, who used two buses from the technical and

19 maintenance institute to get the young cadets out, the young cadets who

20 had been blocked there. And they said that in the barracks in Pazarici a

21 lot of equipment had remained there, heavy weapons too. I don't know of

22 what calibre, but I know that there were a lot of heavy weapons there.

23 Q. You say that the Muslims fired from Mount Igman from large-calibre

24 weapons. Can you tell us while you were at the line did you know what

25 sort of weapons the Muslims were firing from in the direction of your

Page 16405

1 lines?

2 A. From field guns, from mortars. A Browning, I think that's a heavy

3 weapon.

4 Q. Mr. DP19, you said that they used field guns, that they fired from

5 field guns. Could you first of all tell us how far Mount Igman was from

6 your positions? And I mean the positions of the BH Army, the positions

7 from which they used their cannons, their field guns.

8 A. Well, 5 or 6 kilometres as the crow flies. They were on the other

9 side of the -- of Mount Igman. Five or 6 kilometres as the crow flies.

10 Q. When you say that they fired from field guns from the Igman

11 mountain you told us how far away they were as the crow flies, can you

12 tell us what they aimed at? Were you able to see what they were firing at

13 when they fired?

14 A. Well, it wasn't possible to see --

15 MR. STAMP: I think I know where counsel is going. Perhaps it can

16 be rephrased because the way the question is phrased is really asking him

17 to go into the minds of somebody 5 or 6 kilometres away. He asked --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he has answered the question by now, as you see

19 it on your screen, that you couldn't see it. Yes. The question was

20 whether the witness was able to see what they were firing at from a

21 distance of 6 kilometres, that's 5 or 6 kilometres. That's a question

22 that almost invites for speculation. If it would have been differently

23 formulated, the risk of speculation would have been less. Please proceed

24 and keep this in mind, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 16406

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Page 16407

1 Q. Mr. DP19, you told us that the Muslims used field guns from the

2 area of Mount Igman. Did you personally see certain places which were

3 fired at from guns?

4 A. Yes, I did. I saw traces in the town itself. They shelled on a

5 daily basis. Every day many shells fell in Hadzici, perhaps several

6 hundred. When I returned home from the line in order to change my

7 clothes, to pick up something, I can say that there were visible traces on

8 the buildings, in the asphalt, in car parks. You could see the craters

9 that had been caused by these shells.

10 Q. Mr. DP19, I think you said that mortars were also fired.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us from which positions and do you know this

13 personally, from personal experience?

14 A. From which positions we knew, what their positions were, and they

15 constantly attacked from there. The attacks were carried out from

16 Pazarici, villages of Gradac, Zovik, Lokve.

17 Q. Mr. DP19, so that we have a clearer idea about the area that you

18 are talking about, the Defence would like to show you a map, with the

19 leave of the Chamber, where you could show us which area is it that you

20 are talking about.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the copy of

22 the map, C2, the document that the Defence has brought along.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Madam Usher, could you please put the map

24 on the ELMO.

25 MR. STAMP: May I have a look at it quickly.

Page 16408

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. There are not many copies available, so...

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll use this time to

3 ask Mr. DP19 a question.

4 Q. Mr. DP19, when you are talking about these places, Pazarici,

5 Gradac and so on, how far away are these villages from the centre of the

6 Hadzici locality, from the urban centre?

7 A. About 6 kilometers, as the crow flies.

8 Q. In the area of the municipality is the village of Tarcin also

9 located?

10 A. The village of Tarcin is slightly further off, a little bit

11 further away.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you have any knowledge whether in 1992, 1993, 1994,

13 there was an army there, BH Army?

14 A. Where?

15 Q. Pazarici, Tarcin?

16 A. When?

17 Q. 1992, 1993, 1994.

18 A. Muslim Army, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Since you have a map next to you, Mr. DP19, do you

20 recognise this part of the section of the map that you have on your

21 right-hand side?

22 A. Well, I was not in a position to see this map, but I recognise --

23 I recognise the entire area. Could you perhaps show me how to show this.

24 Q. Well, you could turn to your right ask tell me what you recognise

25 on this map?

Page 16409

1 A. Pazarici, Zovik.

2 Q. Mr. DP19, with the pointer, please, can you show the area of

3 Hadzici. Perhaps you could lift that part of the map so that you can have

4 a better look.

5 A. Here it is. Of course, here it is. It's here.

6 Q. On this map, can you tell us about the lines of the

7 Republika Srpska Army and the BH Army lines?

8 A. The VRS lines, these are the -- in red, marked in red. And the

9 Muslim Army lines are the other colour. I don't know whether it is green

10 or blue.

11 Q. Mr. DP19, can you tell us whether here the positions where you

12 were are visible? Can you locate it for us, this area where you were?

13 A. Here it is. The Kastici, village of Kastici, that's where I was.

14 There was an elevation point above Hadzici, Tinovo. Then next to the

15 maintenance facility of Guncar.

16 Q. When you are talking about the elevation points, the dominating

17 elevation points, are you saying that on the elevation point that was

18 dominating, can you tell us which one it is that you see?

19 A. Tinovo, Guncar -- are you asking me about our elevation points?

20 Q. Yes, I am asking you about what were your dominating elevation

21 points.

22 A. The hill of Tinovo in Hadzici itself.

23 Q. Mr. DP19, bearing in mind that told us about the Republika Srpska

24 dominating elevation points -- point, can you tell us or can you show us

25 the position of the BH Army when we are speaking about the dominant

Page 16410

1 positions?

2 A. These points, as I have called them, the dominant points, they are

3 lower than theirs. They always had higher points, Igman, Ormanj, all of

4 them. They were even linked up all the way to Tarcin, to their villages.

5 And all of that was higher up than we were.

6 Q. So you are telling us that in this area, in this part of the town

7 of Hadzici, it was in this part in relation to the Republika Srpska Army

8 positions, the positions of the BH Army were dominant because they were on

9 more elevated positions?

10 A. Yes, that's right. Because Hadzici is in a valley. These two

11 elevation points I've mentioned earlier, they have no importance in

12 relation to their positions because their positions were always higher.

13 Hadzici was in a kind of hole. They were always on higher positions than

14 we were.

15 Q. Mr. DP19, you are telling us that in this area there was the

16 Igman Brigade that was there, that's what you told us. Can you tell us

17 if you know who was the commander of the Igman Brigade?

18 A. That was Blagoje Kovacevic. I think his name -- his first name is

19 Blagoje, but he was there for a short time. After that a man called

20 Dunjic came and after Dunjic, there was Spasoje Cojic.

21 Q. When you told us that in September you were in the battalion can

22 you tell us who was the commander of the battalion, your battalion

23 commander at that time?

24 A. I think it was Petar Milosevic. I think.

25 Q. In that period of time while you were military active person, you

Page 16411

1 were on the line, did you receive certain orders? If you did, who did you

2 receive them from?

3 A. Well, the battalion commander was probably [Realtime transcript

4 read in error "possibly"] giving orders to company commander, and then

5 they gave orders to us. There was a strict order not to fire, not to open

6 fire, not to fire on anything except respond in firing against firing.

7 Save ammunition.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, for the transcript, what I heard is in

9 the last answer is that the battalion commander was "probably giving

10 orders," and not "possibly." May I just draw your attention that I heard

11 something different. Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. DP19, can you tell us whether you personally were given

14 orders, did you hear orders?

15 A. Yes, I did, while I was in the positions, myself and all my fellow

16 combatants from the platoon commanders, don't fire at random, save

17 ammunition, only fire when it is necessary. Respond with firing if there

18 is firing from the other side. And we stuck to that.

19 Q. Mr. DP19, on this map when you indicated the positions of the

20 Army of Republika Srpska and the BH Army, you told us that the

21 Hadzici -- that Hadzici was in a valley, in a dip; did I understand you

22 correctly?

23 A. Yes. They were in a valley.

24 Q. Can you tell us how long was the front line of the Igman Brigade

25 in relation to the Hadzici area?

Page 16412

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Page 16413

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Can you tell us what kind of communication, whether you had

3 communication with the rest of the city of Sarajevo during 1992, 1993,

4 1994?

5 A. Since Hadzici is located, as I said, in a valley and the border

6 areas were held by the Muslim forces, Hadzici had one single exit. What I

7 am saying is that they were completely encircled. The only exit point was

8 towards Blazuj in order to communicate with the rest of the world, so to

9 speak.

10 Q. Mr. DP19, can you tell us personally, since you said that the

11 technical institute or maintenance institute was working with a diminished

12 capacity, you said that later on in the brigade there were several

13 battalions. Can you tell us which ones were these battalions?

14 A. 1st Infantry Battalion, 2nd Infantry Battalion, and 3rd Battalion.

15 Later on, as time went on, there was another one that was established. I

16 don't know what it's name was.

17 Q. Mr. DP19, you told us about the fighting that went on. Can you

18 tell us about the intensity of the fighting? We are talking about

19 September 1992 through August 1994. How was the intensity of the

20 fighting? Can you perhaps elaborate on that a little? Do you know?

21 A. There was daily, daily shelling from the side of the Muslim Army

22 of our positions, and even of the civilian population, of the urban part

23 of town. For instance, attacks were so intense that -- so fierce, that on

24 the 19th of April, specifically on 1993, at the building entering the

25 house, my own son, my only son was killed entering his house, entering the

Page 16414

1 house, including a friend of his called Srdjan Zuza. There was a lot of

2 constant fighting and shelling.

3 Q. Mr. DP19, you told us that you had trenches. Can you tell us when

4 did you dig the trenches in the area of your line?

5 A. Well, immediately after the war broke out, when the line was

6 established -- perhaps I am speaking too fast -- as soon as the

7 demarcation lines was established, as the manpower arrived, as the

8 manpower levels were increased, then the personnel were digging themselves

9 in and trenches were dug. It didn't happen overnight. It was gradually

10 done. I don't know how to explain it.

11 Q. Mr. DP19, you told us that the Muslims from their positions were

12 firing with a Browning.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us from which position was that that they held?

15 A. I do know that. Just a moment. Here it is, from Gradac, from

16 Pazarici, that's village of Lokve. But the Browning was firing from the

17 position of so-called Suplja Stijena, it's a hollow rock position, and the

18 Browning -- that is what our fellow combatants were saying, the soldiers

19 were saying, that the Browning was there, Browning was firing all the

20 time. It was firing on the town. And that is a 12.7 millimetre calibre.

21 Q. Mr. DP19, while the conflict was ongoing in the area of Hadzici,

22 can you tell us was there ever a truce in that area?

23 A. In that area, there was some decisions that were reached in

24 relation to truce, but it was simply a lie. It was never respected. Any

25 truce was never respected, and I state this with certainty. They shelled

Page 16415

1 us and fired on us day and night and this was just -- this was just formal

2 agreements that never came to anything.

3 Q. How were you informed about that?

4 A. I was informed in such a way that they shelled us, they fired on

5 us all the time. And the night before we would find out from the media

6 that there was truce or ceasefire signed, but there was nothing came of

7 it. I felt this on my own skin. Every day there was firing and I had to

8 protect myself in order not to suffer the fate of so many civilian

9 victims, and as I said earlier, of my only son, who was killed.

10 Q. Mr. DP19, one other question and then the examination-in-chief

11 will be over. When you were telling us about the area of Pazarici and

12 Tarcin, did you have personal knowledge whether in these areas, were there

13 camps?

14 A. Yes, I do know. There were, there were two camps. One was in

15 Krupa, that is next to Pazarici, right next to Pazarici. Krupa. I don't

16 know where Krupa is marked here on this map. And, of course, the infamous

17 silo in Tarcin, of course, I know that. Because the people who escaped,

18 some, as it happened, managed to escape from working up there from the

19 digging of trenches. Some people managed to save themselves, but people

20 know about these two camps. Practically the whole world knows about it,

21 close who are interested in it.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has

23 finished the examination-in-chief.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

25 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Mr. President, I don't know if it

Page 16416

1 would be inconvenient to the court if we could take a break now and return

2 for the usual period. I suspect that based on what I'm thinking, we may

3 well be able to expedite proceedings quite significantly.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We will then adjourn until five minutes to 11.00.

5 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please be brought into the

9 courtroom.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP19, you'll be now examined by counsel for the

12 Prosecution. Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp:

15 Q. When you --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 MR. STAMP:

18 Q. -- were, sir, on the line in the area of Kastici, yours was an

19 infantry company? Now you nodded. Could you express --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Very good. Did the battalion that that company was a part of

22 have a name?

23 A. I don't understand. 1st Infantry Battalion.

24 Q. Very well. Who was the commander of that battalion while you were

25 serving?

Page 16417

1 A. I don't know. Because I was up on the line, so I don't know.

2 Q. I think you indicated that the brigade commander for a short time

3 was a man by the name Blagoje Kovacevic. Do you know when his tenure of

4 as commander of that brigade ended?

5 A. He was the commander for a very very short time, only a couple of

6 months. And then a man called Dunjic came after him, but the period, I

7 really don't know.

8 Q. This Dunjic who came after him, would he have come there in about

9 October, about October 1992?

10 A. I really don't know. Perhaps that was the time. But in any

11 case, he arrived after Blagoje who was commander for a very short time.

12 I don't know. I had the opportunity to see him in the street, we met in

13 the street. But I really don't know about the time.

14 Q. Very well. Do you know who succeeded Dunjic or may I just put it

15 to you: Can you recall if a Spasoje Cojic succeeded Dunjic?

16 A. Spasoje Cojic, I know him. He came in 1993.

17 Q. And -- very well, go on, please.

18 A. 1993.

19 Q. And he came then as brigade commander, would you agree with me?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was there an artillery battalion or unit in the Igman Brigade,

22 that you know of?

23 A. Considering that in 1993, since February of that year, I was -- my

24 combat disposition was in the rear. There was a mechanised armoured

25 company that was established. I know this from the information because

Page 16418

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Page 16419

1 this was information was in connection of the issuing of food, preparation

2 of food.

3 Q. How about an artillery battalion or artillery unit, a unit with

4 heavy guns in the brigade, do you know of one being established or being

5 existent?

6 A. Yes. After that company, afterwards became a battalion,

7 mechanised armoured battalion.

8 Q. Very well. You indicated some of the areas from which attacks

9 came while you were on the front. Were these areas to the south and

10 east -- I am sorry, withdrawn.

11 Were the areas that you speak of in respect to this fighting, were

12 they to the south and west of your positions near the village of Kastici?

13 A. I have not much knowledge of geography. I said these were

14 elevations. As I said earlier, these were slopes of Mount Igman that take

15 you to the village of Lokve, and then they go down to Pazarici, then the

16 road goes down to Pazarici.

17 Q. Well, wouldn't you agree with me that you -- you are saying,

18 therefore, that you are not able to say whether these areas were to the

19 south, south-west and west of your positions at the village that you were

20 at? You are not able to help us on that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. There were other lines, were there not, which encircled the city

23 of Sarajevo itself; is that so?

24 A. There were other lines, but I am only speaking about the area of

25 the town of Sarajevo in the municipality of Hadzici where I was. Because

Page 16420

1 Sarajevo includes Ilidza and Vogosca, et cetera, but I was not there.

2 Q. Very well. So I take it you would not be able to assist us in

3 respect of -- withdrawn.

4 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further, really, on this.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

6 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much. Is there any need to re-examine

7 the witness, Ms. Pilipovic?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has a question for you.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 [Interpretation] Sir, if you please, if it is possible, could you

14 tell me about a certain detail. You answered a question about the

15 establishment of confrontation lines. You said, and I am quoting you in

16 English [In English] "The Muslims who had left their houses a long time

17 ago who had left these villages."

18 [Interpretation] End of quote. What I'd like you to tell me:

19 They left their houses, why was that and when was that, could you tell me

20 that?

21 A. I can tell you. They left, and I don't know why at that time, but

22 then later on we all found out and felt it on our own skin. I think I

23 explained that. They took their elderly, their young children with them,

24 even cattle. That they were preparing themselves for something. This

25 became obvious afterwards. But entering into their villages, for

Page 16421

1 instance the village of Dupovci [Realtime transcript read in error

2 "Dobravici"] which is practically right next to the technical institute

3 that I mentioned, we found houses that were connected with communication

4 trenches and trenches which gives me a right, I think, to believe that

5 they were preparing for war.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Preparing for war by withdrawing

7 from the locations, from the villages, and even from the town?

8 A. Yes. I explained that. Upon entering this village later on, it

9 was obvious, we could see the traces. We could see the holes for weapons,

10 trenches. What else could it have been than preparation for a conflict?

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But didn't they have even a

12 theoretical interest to stay because they were there, they were prepared,

13 they had their trenches, they had their supplies. Having prepared all

14 this, and then leaving without any obvious reason, don't you think that

15 there is no exact reason why they left?

16 A. I don't know what their objectives were, their reasons, their

17 purposes. I was an ordinary private, an ordinary soldier. I worked for

18 the quartermasters. Their reasons became apparent later on.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So what you can confirm, however,

20 is that they had left and they left before May 1992, in April? Can you

21 perhaps give us the time frame a little more precisely?

22 A. April, May 1992.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP19, I have one question for you as well. You

25 told us that you could see the traces on the buildings of shelling,

Page 16422

1 shelling the village of Hadzici.

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Can you identify exactly where the shells came from?

4 Could you see the positions from where the shells were fired?

5 A. You couldn't see the positions, but the shells came from the

6 direction of Mount Igman because that's where they probably had heavy

7 weapons. And the buildings, well, this was in the very centre of the

8 town. In part, the buildings faced Mount Igman and in part they faced in

9 another direction. There are still traces on these buildings to this very

10 day and so now they are making attempts to repair what was destroyed.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so these are conclusions on the character and

12 the place of the damage done to the buildings?

13 A. Yes. And traces can be seen, there are the remainders of the

14 weapons used, whether they were shells or I don't know what else they had,

15 whether they were mortar shells or something else. My building was one

16 such building too, the one in which I lived. I wouldn't like to speak

17 about that terrible night for me again. That was very difficult.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer. Mr. DP19, you've come a

19 far way -- yes. Judge Nieto-Navia has a question.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I am sorry, but regarding your answer to

21 Judge El Mahdi, did I understand you well when you said that the Muslims

22 left Hadzici and went to Dobravici and, there I mean in Dobravici, they

23 built trenches, connecting trenches and so on?

24 A. I never mentioned Dobravici, as far as I can remember. The

25 village of Dupovci.

Page 16423

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Let me check. Page 33, line 6, it says "but

2 entering into their villages, for instance, the village of Dobravici."

3 Maybe it is a wrong transcription, but the question is: When you

4 were referring to connecting trenches and so on, you were referring to

5 another town, not to Hadzici. Am I correct?

6 A. That village is a kilometre away. It is the suburbs of Hadzici

7 itself. It is connected or perhaps it is 100 metres closer than the

8 technical and maintenance institute. I know it very well. Because I

9 lived there from 1964.

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is, you mentioned a place or a

11 town where the Muslims built, you said, communication trenches and

12 trenches. Where was that?

13 A. Dupovci, the village which is right next to the technical and

14 maintenance institute. And when I said we entered there, it was in order

15 to get wood because winter was approaching and that is when we saw with

16 what I mentioned a minute ago. The trenches and communicating trenches,

17 and there was also food and cans of food in the basement. That's what I

18 wanted to say.

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions, or are there any further

21 questions?

22 MR. STAMP: Just one.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Just one.

24 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

25 Q. Do you know anything about the forced deportation of any ethnic

Page 16424

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Page 16425

1 group in the villages surrounding Hadzici or that area? What is sometimes

2 termed as "ethnic cleansing."

3 A. That never happened. I can say that for sure, not while I was

4 there in that area, and I was there throughout the war.

5 Q. You said that when you went into some of the villages, the Muslim

6 villages, they were empty. Am I correct in understanding that you did not

7 know why they were empty of Muslims?

8 A. Well, we didn't know either.

9 Q. Very well.

10 MR. STAMP: Nothing further.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP19, this concludes your testimony in this

12 court. I know that you've come a far way to The Hague. You've testified,

13 you've answered questions of both parties and of the Bench, and of course

14 you are testifying about a period in your life which also left its traces,

15 its painful traces in your personal life and your family life. The

16 Tribunal thanks you very much for coming to The Hague, for testifying, and

17 I wish you have a safe trip home again.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness out

20 of the courtroom.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please guide us through

23 the documents.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1806 under seal, pseudonym sheet.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It is admitted under seal.

Page 16426

1 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first look at -- that would be Witness --

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: It would be --

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] DP18, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check on our decision on protective

8 measures. I haven't brought mine because it is on its way to be copied.

9 Yes, protective measures have been granted in respect of the

10 witness. Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the

11 courtroom.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: You hear me in a language you understand?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP18, because that's how we will call you, we'll

16 call you DP18 because protective measures have been granted in respect of

17 you, that means your face cannot be seen and we will not use your name.

18 Mr. DP18, before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure

19 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text of this

21 solemn declaration will be handed out to you by the usher. May I invite

22 you to make that declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. You'll first

Page 16427

1 be examined by counsel for the Defence. Would you like us to go in closed

2 session perhaps to start with, perhaps after the pseudonym sheet?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Madam Usher,

4 could you please assist Ms. Pilipovic.

5 WITNESS: WITNESS DP18

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. DP18.

9 A. Good day.

10 Q. Mr. DP18, could you have a look at the piece of paper in front of

11 you and could you tell us whether the information on the sheet of paper is

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, it's correct.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: For the next few questions we will turn into private

16 session.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16428

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Since we are in open session, you may please proceed,

13 Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. DP18, you told us that you worked up until the 20th of April

16 1992 up until the first attack on Ilidza. Before I ask you about the area

17 in which you lived, can you tell us whether you know anything personally

18 about the attack carried out against Ilidza?

19 A. Not much, because I couldn't go to work --

20 Q. Do you know who organised that attack?

21 A. The Muslim forces from the direction of Hrasnica.

22 Q. Can you tell us how you know about this?

23 A. Well, the entire world saw that. There is such a thing as

24 television.

25 Q. Mr. DP18, Defence counsel will ask you some questions and could

Page 16429

1 you tell us about the period which begins in September 1992 and goes on

2 until August 1994. So this is the period during which you were in

3 Hadzici. Tell us, in September 1992, were you engaged in the military?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. Can you tell us in what capacity you were engaged in the military?

6 A. Well, the armoured unit hadn't been established at that point. I

7 was on a hill behind Hadzici. I was manning a weapon that was in fact

8 defending our front lines.

9 Q. Can you tell us whether you served in the JNA?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. What was your military occupational specialty?

12 A. I was an orderly.

13 Q. When you said that in September you were at the defence line in

14 Hadzici, can you tell us when these lines were established?

15 A. Well, those lines were established around the end of May, maybe it

16 was the end of May or mid-May, perhaps, something like that, after the

17 last attacks carried out by the Muslim forces to take Hadzici and the

18 technical and maintenance institute.

19 Q. When you say that until -- when you say that those lines were

20 established in May after the Muslim attack, can you tell us how you were

21 organised at the time?

22 A. Well, the only organised unit was the technical and maintenance

23 institute which was part of the JNA. Everything else was purely

24 spontaneous. Because the first attack was carried out against the

25 technical and maintenance institute which managed to defend itself on the

Page 16430

1 8th of May and everything else was organised on a voluntary basis. There

2 were people who were practically defending their own houses.

3 Q. So you're telling us that in September 1992 you were positioned

4 and at a line that were established in May 1992? Is that what you said?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. We could repeat that

6 to avoid confusion.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute as to when approximately the

8 lines were established prior to the indictment period? We hear a lot of

9 evidence on that which seems to...

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could respond to that. The

11 evidence is that there was some movement in the confrontation lines

12 between May and September, and that with a few exceptions which have been

13 the subject of evidence such as Otes, they remain relatively steady

14 thereafter. So if it assists, the Prosecution says there is no relevance

15 in the position of the confrontation lines with precision before

16 September.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am not talking about precision. I am not

18 talking about whether it was on the 15th or the 16th or the 17th. But in

19 But in general terms, I think we hear a lot of evidence which comes down

20 approximately, not always, but usually to the same, that people were

21 defending themselves, that lines were established, and that it was for a

22 great deal, spontaneous action. I mean, we heard that from many many many

23 witnesses. Is there any need, unless there is a specific issue, of

24 course, there is no problem if lines were changed to go over that again.

25 Ms. Pilipovic, I am asking you because that takes approximately 5 to 10

Page 16431

1 minutes from each witness and I wondered whether we can -- of course,

2 whether you could agree on it, that would be the best way of solving it.

3 But I do not see such contradiction and since it is not one of the central

4 issues in this case --

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But I would

6 just like my colleague to affirm that the line was established

7 spontaneously, that the demarcation line was established spontaneously.

8 MR. IERACE: The Prosecution does not agree with that,

9 Mr. President. We have heard evidence from Robert Donia as to the

10 background as to the establishment of the lines, but in response your

11 specific question, I don't believe there is any dispute, that the lines

12 were established well before September.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say the time when the lines were

14 established is not very much in dispute, but whether it was spontaneous

15 action, that is a different matter. Could you please keep that in mind

16 for the future witnesses as well. Please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. DP18, in September 1992 you said that you were engaged in the

19 military, you were in a company. Have I understood you correctly?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us how many men there were in the company in 1992, in

22 September?

23 A. Well, very few. I think there were between 20 and 30 men in that

24 unit.

25 Q. You said there were between 20 and 30 men in your company. In the

Page 16432

1 area of the municipality of Hadzici, were there any large formations, and

2 within which large formation did your company exist?

3 A. Within the 1st Battalion.

4 Q. When you say that it was part of the 1st Battalion, can you tell

5 us how many men there were in the battalion?

6 A. Well, up to about 600 men, I think. I don't know the exact

7 number, but I think there were about 600 men.

8 Q. You said that you were in a company. Can you tell us what kind of

9 weapons your company had?

10 A. Up until the end of 1992 it was a kind of armoured company and the

11 weapons it had, well, I think it had two or three tanks, a Praga, a

12 self-propelled rocket.

13 Q. When you say that your company had one self-propelled rocket, two

14 or three rockets and a Praga, can you tell us what a Praga is?

15 A. Well, a Prag, a P-R-A-G is a mobile weapon it had two barrels

16 which the calibre is about 30 millimeters.

17 Q. Mr. DP18, as a member of a company, which was part of a battalion,

18 can you tell us who the battalion commander was, do you know?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, before the witness answers the

20 question, one of the previous answers in English reads that the company

21 had two or three tanks, a Praga and a self-propelled rocket. And in your

22 next question you say that when you say that your company had one

23 self-propelled rocket, two or three rockets and a Praga. When you were

24 talking about, Mr. DP18, two or three pieces of weaponry, did you refer to

25 a tank or to rockets, two tanks or two rockets?

Page 16433

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tanks. A tank.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. DP18, my question was whether you could tell us who the

4 battalion commander was?

5 A. Well, at the beginning I think it was Milosevic, but I've

6 forgotten his first name. But I think that it was Milosevic.

7 Q. Mr. DP18, can you tell us whether you personally know what greater

8 formation did your battalion belong to?

9 A. Well, I think until the end of September it was, it was at that

10 time that they started establishing the Igman Brigade. Up until then, we

11 existed as an armoured company within the 1st Battalion in Hadzici.

12 Q. When you say "the Igman Brigade" can you tell us how many smaller

13 formations there were within the Igman Brigade?

14 A. I don't understand the question.

15 Q. Can you tell us how many battalions there were in the

16 Igman Brigade?

17 A. Well, I think there were about four battalions.

18 Q. You told us that you were part of an armoured mechanised

19 battalion?

20 A. Yes, first of all, it was an armoured mechanised company, and then

21 when we had the brigade, they formed an armoured mechanised battalion,

22 that was later on in September.

23 Q. Can you tell us where the front line of your battalion was?

24 A. Yes, I can.

25 Q. Can you tell us which area that concerned?

Page 16434

1 A. Well, that's the area that is behind the town, behind Hadzici.

2 Q. In relation to the positions of your battalion, can you tell us

3 how far away were the lines or were there front lines of the BH Army in

4 relation to that?

5 A. Yes, that was just above Hadzici. There was the -- a line going

6 from Ormanj, Gaja, Borak, Gradelj and Igman and there was elevation point

7 above Stupnik just above Hadzici.

8 Q. In relation to the positions of your battalion, where you were,

9 can you tell us how far away were the positions of the BH Army?

10 A. From my positions?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. A maximum up to 2.000 metres.

13 Q. Mr. DP18, can you tell us in the period from September 1992 until

14 August 1994, which weapons did your mechanised armoured battalion have?

15 A. We had about four or five tanks when we were established. We had

16 a self-propelled gun. It had a Praga.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the

18 witness's answer.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your answer,

20 because the interpreters could not hear you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry. It was B-R-D-M, it is

22 an armoured vehicle, a Russian production. It is not caterpillars, but

23 it's on wheels. B-R-D-M.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Can you tell us, and we are still speaking about the period

Page 16435

1 September 1992 until August 1994, do you have personal knowledge whether

2 in this area there was fighting?

3 A. Yes, of course. Throughout 1992 there were attempts of the Muslim

4 forces to take over the municipality of Hadzici, that is the town of

5 Hadzici itself.

6 Q. When you say that there were attempts, can you tell us that

7 fighting went on as well, did it?

8 A. Yes, until the end of 1992, nonstop, practically on a daily basis.

9 Q. Can you tell us whether you have personal knowledge, what kind of

10 weapons did the BH Army have in the fighting?

11 A. Apart from infantry weapons, they also had mortars, that mortars

12 were firing from the direction of Ormanj, Pazarici, Tarcin, and they also

13 had heavier artillery which fired on Hadzici from Igman.

14 Q. When you say that they had heavy artillery, can you be a little

15 more precise? What exactly did they have from heavy artillery?

16 A. These were field guns from 105 millimeters to 130 millimeters and

17 they had remained at the Pazarici Barracks, after the Yugoslav Army

18 withdrew.

19 Q. Mr. DP18, when you were telling us about your battalion and when

20 you were talking about the fighting, can you tell us what was the weapon

21 that was issued to you?

22 A. I was a crew member on Praga.

23 Q. During the daily fighting -- when you say fighting occurred on a

24 daily basis, what weapons did you use to defend yourselves from the

25 attack?

Page 16436

1 A. My battalion was only to give support to the first front lines

2 because we were behind the front, some 1 and a half thousand to 2.000

3 metres. We would only be active if our infantry was at risk.

4 Q. Did you visit the first line, the front line of the infantry?

5 A. Very rarely.

6 Q. What was the way that you communicated?

7 A. Via radio.

8 Q. When you say that you took part -- that you were to give support

9 when the infantry was at risk, can you tell us who issued orders to you,

10 who gave you orders?

11 A. The battalion commander himself, when there was a request from the

12 men who were on the first front line who were directly at risk from the

13 Muslim side.

14 Q. Can you tell us whether you in these situations when you fired,

15 did you have military targets that you fired on?

16 A. These were only military targets that we fired on, bunkers,

17 trenches.

18 Q. Can you tell us how far away were the bunkers and the trenches in

19 relation to your position?

20 A. Infantry positions or --

21 Q. Well, if you know the infantry positions, then you can tell us

22 first about the infantry positions?

23 A. Well, I can tell you in some places it was even 100 metres,

24 maximum it was 500 metres up to the trenches, 100 to 500 metres, depending

25 on which part we are talking about.

Page 16437

1 Q. Mr. DP18, when you are speaking about the lines, demarcation

2 lines, speaking from a military strategic point of view, if you know, what

3 were the positions of your battalion in relation to the BH Army forces?

4 A. The Muslim forces held all dominant elevation points above

5 Hadzici, apart from the Tinovo elevation point.

6 Q. Do you know when the BH Army lines were established on those

7 dominant points, elevation points?

8 A. Immediately after the 8th of May.

9 Q. Mr. DP18, if the Defence shows you a map, would you be able to

10 look at this map and mark on it, as you say, the military targets?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The military targets, that were your targets.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it, Ms. Pilipovic, that there will be no

14 marking on this map, one of the few we have, but it can be put on the

15 ELMO, and we will try to describe as precisely as possible. But let's

16 keep the markers away from this map.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18 Q. Mr. DP18, do you recognise this map?

19 A. I can't see it very clearly.

20 Q. You can turn to your right, it might be easier.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On this map can you point to the positions that you told us where

23 the dominant points or dominant military points as you called them, so to

24 speak.

25 A. This is the map which was practically until the end of the war,

Page 16438

1 but before 1993, I can show you what it's like. Are you interested in

2 what happened before 1993?

3 Q. Can you tell us about the period both about 1993 and 1994, please,

4 if you know.

5 A. The hill of Stupnik.

6 Q. When you are pointing to the hill of Stupnik, what are you saying?

7 A. They used infantry weapons and 60-millimetre mortars.

8 Q. Can you tell us about the period?

9 A. This went on until July 1993.

10 Q. So --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, for the transcript, the witness points

12 to a position south-east from Hadzici, approximately in the middle between

13 the village as indicated on the map and the red dotted line south-east of

14 it.

15 Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. DP18, are you saying that the line, the demarcation line

18 between the two armies in that period that you are speaking about, 1993,

19 it was different to what we can see on this map?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So what you're saying is that there was a shifting of the lines, a

22 change in this period from 1993 until 1994?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you pointed to this important strategic elevation point, do

25 you know from which weapons BH Army members fired from there?

Page 16439

1 A. They used infantry weapons, Browning gun 12.7 millimeters, and

2 mortars. This was elevation point just above Hadzici. I don't know

3 whether there was even one kilometre of distance as the crow flies.

4 Q. On this map, can you mark, can you point to other important

5 strategic points?

6 A. Elevation point Grada which was just above the barracks Zunovica.

7 Q. When you are speaking about the Grada elevation point, can you

8 tell us from this elevation point --

9 A. A Browning gun, 12.7 millimetre was firing from this elevation

10 point. It was firing from the -- at the point from the entrance to the

11 barracks in Zunovica up to the 27th of July Street in the settlement, in

12 the locality itself.

13 Q. When we are speaking about the Zunovica Barracks, this facility,

14 during the conflict --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move to the barracks, we first have to

16 describe where the witness pointed at when he was speaking about Grada

17 elevation point. That is south of the village of Hadzici where the both

18 red and green confrontation lines in an angle of approximately 90 degrees

19 change from north-south to east-west. Please proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. So, my question was the barracks at Zunovica, can you tell us in

22 1992 who used the barracks?

23 A. Beginning or end of that year?

24 Q. Well, if you know you can tell us for chronology's sake.

25 A. Well, up to the 12th of May, something like that, that was the

Page 16440

1 Yugoslav Army, until it withdrew.

2 Q. And after it withdrew?

3 A. After it withdrew, the locals, the reservists, they remained at

4 the barracks.

5 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether there were weapons there?

6 A. There were -- the JNA or the Yugoslav Army took away the weapons

7 from 1991. Most of the weapons were withdrawn with the Yugoslav Army.

8 Q. Do you have any information whether any weapons were left there?

9 A. Well, I don't know because I wasn't there. I can't tell you if

10 there was anything left. Most probably there were weapons left there.

11 Q. When you were speaking about the Grada elevation point, on this

12 map, would you be able to point to some other elevation points if there

13 were any?

14 A. There was the elevation point of Borak which the tank T34 was

15 active, and from Gaja where there was the 20 millimetre anti-aircraft gun

16 with two barrels, that was active from Gaja elevation point.

17 Q. When you are speaking about the tank, Witness, and the positions

18 from which the BH Army was active, can you tell us whether you personally

19 saw this tank?

20 A. Yes, it was not just one tank, there were two. Because when we

21 destroyed the first one, the second one arrived and the second one was

22 destroyed by the end of 1993.

23 Q. You told us there was the first one and you said the second one

24 was also destroyed at the end of 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16441

1 Q. And the first tank, what can you tell us about it?

2 A. Well, I think it was by the end of 1992 that it was destroyed.

3 Q. When you were telling us about the anti-aircraft gun, rocket

4 launcher --

5 A. No, no. This was the 20-millimetre anti-aircraft field gun with

6 two barrels --

7 Q. Can you tell us about the range of that weapon?

8 A. I think up to 3.000 metres.

9 Q. When the BH Army fired from these tanks and from the anti-aircraft

10 gun, can you tell us what were the targets?

11 A. Well, the targets were on our heavy weapons, the Praga, the tank,

12 the self-propelled gun, those were the targets.

13 Q. Do you have personal knowledge during the fighting whether on your

14 side some weapons were destroyed?

15 A. Well, on several occasions there were hits, but there was

16 nothing --

17 Q. Mr. DP18, with you speaking about an elevation point, can you

18 please tell us what was the elevation point from which the Muslims were

19 active with the tank and the --

20 A. That was elevation point Borak.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Elevation point Borak. Your

22 Honour, just for the transcript, we have to explain that the witness for

23 the elevation point Borak, he is pointing on the map between the green and

24 the red line and the point is located above flag with number "1" on it.

25 Q. Mr. DP18, can you see on this map whether on the Borak elevation

Page 16442

1 point there is a number, perhaps it will be easier to identify it then.

2 A. No, it just says "Borak" here.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, it is difficult to see from our

4 screen, but where you say a flag with a number "1," would that be number 1

5 or a number 4? We have some doubt. You might be right.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is closest and he says it's one, and

8 having zoomed in, it comes closer to number "1" than to number" 4."

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. DP, do you have personal knowledge or what is the range of the

11 weapons that you are speaking about from the elevation point Borak of the

12 anti-aircraft gun and of the tank?

13 A. The tank is a weapon that shoots, fires directly, I think up to 18

14 to 20.000 metres.

15 Q. Do you know personally whether the BH Army had field guns in

16 certain positions?

17 A. I said that they had field guns on Mount Igman.

18 Q. Do you know what a field gun -- what the range of a field gun is?

19 A. Well, they had so-called Sultan field gun, which I think it was

20 120 millimetre calibre, and it had a range up to 30.000 metres.

21 Q. Can you tell us in relation to your positions, how far away were

22 the positions of the BH Army when they were firing the field guns?

23 A. Six to 7.000 metres, maximum.

24 Q. Can you tell us what targets they targeted in the municipality of

25 Hadzici?

Page 16443

1 A. Most they targeted the technical maintenance institute --

2 Q. Can you show us on the map whether it is possible to see the

3 technical maintenance institute on the map?

4 A. Approximately here, between Grivici and Kucice that's where the

5 institute was.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness

7 pointed to the position of the technical maintenance institute of Hadzici

8 which is located between the word "Grivici" on the left-hand side and on

9 the right-hand side the word "Hadzici." Between these two words in this

10 area.

11 Q. Mr. DP18, you pointed to the Borak elevation point from which

12 BH Army was firing. You said that there was also Igman. You indicated

13 the military target for the Igman field guns was. Can you tell about more

14 military targets in the municipality of Hadzici?

15 A. Well, the shells fell throughout the municipality of Hadzici,

16 throughout the area that was inhabited, because that was the area that was

17 targeted.

18 Q. Mr. DP18, next to the point Borak from which BH Army members were

19 firing, on the front line, do you know whether there were other firing

20 positions from which BH Army members were firing?

21 A. We have Ormanj, that was the quarry, and from the heavy weapons,

22 there they had the Bofors, 40-millimetre field gun, they also had a

23 Browning gun, 12.7 millimetre. That was above the village of Dupovci, I

24 think that's elevation 711, as far as I can remember.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness is

Page 16444

1 indicating below the word "Dupovci" which is between the red and the blue

2 line, and he is indicating the 716 --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not sure whether it was 716 or

4 711. Nothing is written here.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You said it was from these positions that the BH Army was

7 firing --

8 A. With a Bofors 40-millimetre field gun and with a Browning

9 12.7-millimetre gun.

10 Q. Mr. --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness slow down, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. DP18, you are speaking the same language.

13 Could you please make a pause before you answer the question. If there is

14 text on your screen which is not there at this very moment, you better

15 wait until this text stops moving, so just make a short break.

16 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 THE WITNESS: Okay.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 Q. So, Mr. DP18, when we were speak about the fighting, you said that

20 it was on a daily basis. In the period from 1992, 1993, through to 1994,

21 what was the intensity of the fighting?

22 A. Well, could you just repeat the question.

23 Q. The intensity of the fighting in the period from 1992, 1993,

24 through to 1994.

25 A. Well, from September until the end of the year, the attacks were

Page 16445

1 daily, and the shelling of our positions with their heavy artillery, and

2 this occurred also on a daily basis. But the most -- the greatest attack

3 in 1992 was on the 12th of December -- on the 19th --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologises.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 19th of December when our positions

6 were even fired on with rocket launchers.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. When you are speaking about rocket launchers, do you personally

9 have knowledge from which positions they were firing with rocket

10 launchers?

11 A. They were firing approximately from the direction of the village

12 of Lokve.

13 Q. On this map would you be able to indicate for us the village of

14 Lokve?

15 A. [Indicates]

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness is

17 indicating on the map a point where we have a symbol, a flag with number

18 "1" and below this flag there is a name place, place name called "Lokve."

19 And the witness is indicating this as being the firing position of a

20 multiple rocket launcher.

21 Q. Could you please repeat the actual weapon that was used?

22 A. That was the multiple rocket launcher.

23 Q. Thank you. So you are telling us that it was from this position

24 in December of 1992 that this weapon was?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16446

1 Q. Do you have knowledge whether in the period of 1993, 1994, whether

2 the positions from which this weapon was used?

3 A. After December of 1992, they didn't use rocket launchers from this

4 side, because on that date, 19th of December, there was a frontal attack

5 from Ormanj, from the hill Ormanj, all the way to Blazuj, they attacked

6 our positions.

7 Q. You mentioned the intensity of the fighting. Can you tell us

8 whether in part of the town of Hadzici buildings were damaged?

9 A. Well, of course. This can still be seen today.

10 Q. Can you tell us what sort of damage was caused?

11 A. Damage was caused by mortars, Brownings firing from the quarry,

12 artillery shells fired from Igman.

13 Q. Mr. DP18, you have mentioned the firing positions, you have

14 indicated the firing positions of the BH Army. Can you tell us whether

15 there were any other firing positions from which they fired?

16 A. Yes. On the Koscan hill had a firing position there. They fired

17 from the Koscan hill, they used mortars from that position.

18 Q. I apologise. Could you just move the map a little to the right,

19 please, so that we can point to the place. What was the name of the place

20 you said?

21 A. Koscan.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

23 the witness pointed above the black dotted line above the word Koscan. He

24 pointed to a position from which the BH Army used mortars.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is west from Hadzici. It's the other side of

Page 16447

1 confrontation lines seen from Hadzici. Please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. DP18, you mentioned mortars. Is this on the basis of your own

4 experience, of your own knowledge?

5 A. Well, on the basis of the shell fins, when a shell explodes, the

6 fin of a mortar shell remains intact.

7 Q. Did you have the opportunity of personally seeing what the calibre

8 was?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us what the calibre was?

11 A. 82 millimetre and 120 millimetre, that was the calibre used.

12 Q. I apologise -- you said 82 millimetres and --

13 A. 120 millimetres.

14 Q. 120. Mr. DP18, in addition to the point that you have indicated,

15 do you know whether there were any other firing positions from which the

16 members of the BH Army were active in this area?

17 A. The Ormanj hill, all these dominant positions around here were in

18 their hands, from Koscan towards Dupovci and Hadzici. This line here,

19 this belt here.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

21 the witness pointed to an area behind the blue line as far as the word

22 "Pazarici" and said that this area was an area where the BH Army had

23 position said from which it was active.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the witness pointed in approximately

25 half a circle starting with Pazarici going up north following

Page 16448

1 approximately the banded confrontation line on the western side.

2 Please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. DP18, can you tell us about the position of Igman in relation

5 to the town of Sarajevo? What was the position since you lived there, can

6 you tell us anything about that?

7 A. That was the part that was above the Sarajevsko Polje.

8 Q. Mr. DP18, while you were engaged in the military in your

9 battalion, can you tell us who the battalion commander was?

10 A. Mr. Stajic.

11 Q. Can you tell us who was the company commander, or already it was a

12 battalion and in the beginning it was a company. Can you tell us who gave

13 you orders?

14 A. From -- my commander did, Mr. Stajic.

15 Q. Can you tell us what the nature of these orders was?

16 A. Well, we were told that we should only open fire when the lives of

17 our men at the front lines were in danger. And we were told to save as

18 much ammunition as possible.

19 Q. Mr. DP18, can you tell us for the period of 1992, do you know

20 whether there was a truce during that period and if there was, how often

21 were there truces and how often were they made public?

22 A. As far as I know in 1992 there were no truces at all. And in 1993

23 there were some, but they weren't respected much by the Muslim side

24 because they would often fire from mortars at our positions.

25 Q. So you are telling us that the truces were not respected?

Page 16449

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know whether they lasted, and if so, for how long?

3 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I'd say 20 days, a month at the most.

4 Q. When these truces were in force, can you tell us whether there was

5 no fighting at the time or was the situation different?

6 A. Well, there wasn't any fighting. There was shelling, that's all.

7 Q. You mentioned shelling, but could you be a little more precise.

8 A. Well, shells fell on the technical and maintenance institute and

9 in the very centre of the town, but not so many on our positions.

10 Q. When you say in the very centre of the town, can you tell us

11 whether there were any military targets in that area?

12 A. No, not in the town itself.

13 Q. And how far were the lines? How far were the front lines of the

14 Republika Srpska Army from the centre of the town?

15 A. Well, between 500 and up to 2.000 metres, roughly speaking.

16 Q. Mr. DP18, in 1992, 1993, and 1994, can you tell us whether the

17 technical and maintenance institute functioned?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you say "yes," do you have direct knowledge of this or is

20 this something that someone told you?

21 A. Well, it was a military institution which worked for the needs of

22 the army. It repaired artillery weapons.

23 Q. Mr. DP18, bearing in mind the fact that you have explained where

24 the positions were, where the firing positions of the BH Army were, can

25 you tell us where the military strategic positions of the BH Army were in

Page 16450

1 relation to the Army of Republika Srpska?

2 A. Well, since their positions were on the dominant elevations

3 surrounding the town, we were in an inferior position in comparison to

4 them.

5 Q. Mr. DP18, you mentioned the intensity of the fighting and the

6 damage inflicted on the buildings. Can you tell us whether you personally

7 saw where the most damage was done?

8 A. Well, it was in the centre, that's the part that was most damaged,

9 around the square, and the Zunovica neighbourhood, or rather the 27th of

10 July Street and around the market.

11 Q. When you say "Zunovica" are you talking about the area where the

12 Zunovica Barracks was located?

13 A. Well, the Zunovica Barracks was in the area behind the

14 neighbourhood of Zunovica. It's name was Zunovica, but the neighbourhood

15 of Zunovica was before the fishpond in Hadzici, and before the entrance

16 into the barracks.

17 Q. Can you use a felt tip to -- can you use the pointer to indicate

18 that area.

19 A. That's here.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to the

21 Zunovica neighbourhood and said that this neighbourhood was the

22 neighbourhood that was most damaged. It is next to the word, it says

23 "Zunovica."

24 Q. Do I see that correctly?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16451

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is next to number "1PP" on the

2 map.

3 Q. Mr. DP18, can you tell us what number "1PP" means, do you know?

4 A. I wouldn't know. Only if it is to be brought in connection with

5 the 1st Battalion.

6 Q. Can you tell us whether you know who the commander of the Igman

7 Brigade was?

8 A. When?

9 Q. From the time of its formation, do you know when the Igman Brigade

10 was formed?

11 A. As far as I can remember it was towards the end of September. I

12 think Kovacevic was the first commander. And afterwards it was Dunjic,

13 and after Dunjic, Cojic, and finally I think that it was Petricevic.

14 Q. Mr. DP18, can you tell us whether you know whether the command

15 post of the Igman Brigade was?

16 A. In the Blazuj Barracks.

17 Q. Can that place be identified on the map.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness

20 pointed to the command post of the Igman Brigade which was in the

21 Blazuj Barracks. He pointed to an area between the word "Igman Infantry

22 Brigade" on the map.

23 Q. And since you told us that there were several battalions in the

24 Igman Brigade, do you know where the command posts of the battalions were

25 located?

Page 16452

1 A. The 1st Infantry Battalion had its command post in the Zunovica

2 Barracks itself, that's here.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to the command

4 post of the first infantry battalion below the word "Zunovica" to the

5 south.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 2nd Battalion was --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the transcript, just south of the village of

8 Hadzici where he earlier for the Igman Brigade headquarters, he was

9 pointing to a -- just left of where it reads "Blazuj" as far as I can see

10 on the map, which is a village east from Hadzici.

11 Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. DP18, beneath the word "Zunovica" you pointed to the command

14 post of the 1st Infantry Battalion in the barracks of Zunovica?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the sake of the

17 transcript, I think that we said that it was to the south of the word

18 "Zunovica" next to the word "the 1st Infantry Battalion" that's where the

19 barracks is located.

20 Q. Mr. DP18 --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you could find a suitable moment

22 for a break, and when you are referring to words, they usually appear as

23 abbreviations in Cyrillic on the map.

24 Would this be a suitable moment for a break? We will then adjourn

25 until five minutes to 1.00.

Page 16453

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed. Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

5 yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is a bit difficult without

7 the witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree. Yes, you would like to the

9 raise --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But I want to take this

11 opportunity to say that this since this morning the Defence has not had a

12 transcript in spite of the fact that the technical services intervened on

13 several occasions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You mean no transcript on your laptop computer. Yes.

15 I saw a technician coming in and finally no solution has been found. Then

16 we will ask again whether someone will assist you, because the system as

17 such seems to function well, but not at this very moment, for the Defence.

18 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

19 courtroom.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. DP18, before the break you showed us an area, you pointed to

24 an area in response to my question concerning the command post of the

25 battalions. Do you remember doing that?

Page 16454

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you point to these places on the map and tell us what these

3 places are?

4 A. I first of all pointed to the command post of the brigade in

5 Blazuj, the command of the 1st Battalion in the Zunovica Barracks. The

6 command of the 2nd battalion in the village of Drozgometva --

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. For the sake of the

8 transcript, could you repeat the command post of the 2nd Battalion.

9 A. Drozgometva.

10 Q. Do you know what this symbol means? Can you read out what it

11 means in those black letters in the semi-circle.

12 A. This isn't clear to me. I think the first letter is P.

13 Q. Anti-armour --

14 A. No, it was an infantry battalion in Drozgometva, and it's number 2

15 here or it's a P. I can't make it out.

16 Q. Would you agree with me if I say it is an anti-armoured

17 attachment?

18 A. Anti-armoured attachment?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I am not familiar with this.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the sake of the

22 transcript, the witness has pointed to the command post of the 2nd

23 Infantry Battalion in the black semi-circle where we can see the word

24 Drozgometva.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Drozgometva, yes.

Page 16455

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Above the word Hadzici, that would

2 indicate the north-west.

3 Q. Mr. DP18, can you point to the locations of the other command

4 posts of the other battalions.

5 A. I know the command post of my battalion, the armoured mechanised

6 one, in the barracks Usivak, the Usivak barracks

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to the command

8 post of the anti-armoured --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the armoured mechanised

10 battalion.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The armoured mechanised battalion

12 in the area between the word -- the Igman Infantry Brigade and beneath the

13 word "the 1st Infantry Battalion" 1PB means the 1st Infantry Battalion

14 above the word "Igrava Brdo" [phoen] is the infantry brigade.

15 Q. So you said the Usivak barracks?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP18.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

19 my colleague will ask a few more questions and then we will finish with

20 our examination-in-chief.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would object on the

23 grounds that I don't believe that Mr. Piletta-Zanin was present when the

24 witness's testimony began, number one; and number two, in light of the

25 fact that he has expressed problems with their LiveNote system, it would

Page 16456

1 seem to me impossible that he could have reviewed the transcript during

2 the break.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I take note of

5 that, of the fact that the Prosecution can see that we have been

6 handicapped in these proceedings because we don't have our transcript. So

7 I will respect a fair decision, but I would like to point out that this

8 isn't the first time that we have had problems with the transcripts,

9 whereas others do not have these problems.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I wanted

13 to apologise, but my late -- my plane was very late this morning and in

14 addition this isn't cross-examination, it is the examination-in-chief, and

15 I have had the opportunity work with this witness personally. So I don't

16 see how the fact that I wasn't able to see something which was not my

17 fault, this was a technical problem, I don't see why this should be a

18 problem for me to address certain issues which I wanted to address in the

19 course of the examination-in-chief. Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, although it would have been the

22 normal course, I would say, that Ms. Pilipovic would finish, the Chamber

23 will allow you to further examine the witness, but under a condition,

24 which will very very very strictly be observed, that wherever it appears

25 that you are repetitious in your questioning or that your ask questions to

Page 16457

1 the witness of which if you would have known the transcript, that you

2 should not have asked it, then we will change it. You may instruct

3 Ms. Pilipovic if you want to -- the Chamber noted that your objecting when

4 that happened in cross-examination, this examination-in-chief, that is a

5 bit different, so we will keep to that -- keep to this condition very

6 strictly. And if the suggestion was in your words that your laptop

7 suffers more than other laptops, I can tell you that my laptop failed to

8 function many many times. Apart from that, I also can inform you that it

9 is not possible to fix your laptop. It can be done, but parts have to be

10 taken out and that could not be done during the course of the examination

11 of the witness. If you need any assistance in that respect, if you would

12 like to search for anything, I'll be glad to assist you.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I work on the

15 basis of memory for the most part, Mr. President. But we will see.

16 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

17 Witness, good day. You mentioned what we call multiple rocket

18 launchers. VBR. Do you remember this?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness, I would like to know whether you had any kind of precise

21 information about these weapons? And I don't mean where they were

22 located, but I am referring to their nature, the type of weapon.

23 A. Well, it's a weapon which is lethal. It depends on how many

24 barrels it has, whether 12 or 32. So it can fire between 12 and 32

25 rockets at the same time.

Page 16458

1 Q. Very well. The weapon that you have mentioned, and I am still

2 referring to the multiple rocket launcher, what kind of a VBR was it? Was

3 it a weapon that had many tubes? What do you know about this?

4 A. According to the information we received from the people who fled

5 from Cine [phoen] and Pazarici, they said that they had 12 tubes and that

6 they were of Chinese production, these multiple rocket launchers had 12

7 tubes.

8 Q. Thank you. As far as you know did the Yugoslav Army usually have

9 such VBRs, such multiple rocket launchers which were of Chinese production

10 as part of its arsenal?

11 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, leading.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is a leading question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can put that question

14 differently.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, if you have had any experience of this, do you know what

18 kind of multiple rocket launchers, what kind of VBRs the former JNA had as

19 part of its equipment? Do you know the answer to this question; yes or

20 no?

21 A. All I saw was what I saw on television, but as far as the type of

22 weapons are concerned, I don't know.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, to return to more technical matters, you told

24 us about the kind of multiple rocket launcher concerned, you said it was

25 of Chinese production. Do you know what its range was? Did it have a

Page 16459

1 long range, a short range, a longer or shorter range than weapons that

2 were produced in Yugoslavia, and I am referring to the same type of

3 weapon, VBRs?

4 A. I think it was between 7 to 14.000 metres.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, from the place where you knew that

6 this VBR or these VBRs were located, what was the zone that was the end of

7 the range of this weapon in relation to the town of Sarajevo.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. I would like to elaborate

10 upon that in the absence of the witness, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, could you just -- could I ask you

12 to escort the witness out of the courtroom for just one moment.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we are attempting to locate the

15 precise spot in the transcript, but my recollection is that the witness

16 did not know the precise location of the ABiH multiple rocket launcher.

17 He testified that he believes that the fire, the rocket fire came from the

18 direction of a certain village.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think he testified that he heard something about

20 this weaponry being fired rather than seeing it --

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I can draw your attention, our

22 laptop is also I believe a few lines off --

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you give the words, we can search for it.

24 MR. MUNDIS: It is the word Lokve, L-O-K-V-E and in ours it

25 appears on page 52.

Page 16460

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the evidence of the witness

2 was they were firing approximately from the direction of the village of

3 Lokve. So, a very general terms. Apart from that, your last question was

4 rather confusing when you talked about the range. Because you asked the

5 witness to compare the range with other weapons and then two weapons were

6 in your question, and then, of course, the answer about the range is not

7 quite clear.

8 The witness may be brought into the courtroom again and I will put

9 a few questions to him to start with.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Gladly.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP18, I have got a few intermediary questions for

12 you. You talked about the multiple rocket launchers. Did you ever see

13 them yourself, the multiple rocket launchers used by the other side in the

14 conflict?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslim side?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw them myself, but I felt

18 the consequences of these weapons.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any specific knowledge of the

20 technical details of these weapons? Did you ever see

21 documentary -- documents on ranges, et cetera?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the source of your knowledge of the

24 range you just indicated?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I served in the Yugoslav

Page 16461

1 Army, and in the course of training you learn about all the weapons.

2 There is a theoretical course.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you were talking about the range of rocket

4 launchers, were you referring to what you know about the weaponry used in

5 the former Yugoslav Army, or were you referring to the range of these

6 rocket launchers of which you heard they were of Chinese make?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I learned when I did my

8 military service.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About that information.

11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... used in the

12 former Yugoslav Army; is that correct?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have -- do you know the precise position from

15 where these rocket launchers were firing?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first time when they fired at my

17 crew with that multiple rocket launcher when they carried out a frontal

18 attack of Hadzici, from direction of the village of Lokve. That's where

19 the fire came from.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... from the

21 direction of -- I take it then --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lokve. Lokve.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It is more to the south as far as -- yes. So you

24 know the direction, but not the precise position? Am I correct in

25 understanding that you know the direction where they came from, but not

Page 16462

1 the precise position from where they fired from?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not the precise position

3 because if we had known the position, we would have used our artillery to

4 fire at it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please move to your next subject.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 Q. Witness, I'd like you to tell us about tanks. You told us about

9 two tanks, there were two tanks present. Do you remember, the tanks from

10 the opposing side, do you remember that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Can you remind us where were these tanks

13 active? Where were they firing from as far as you can recall?

14 A. From the Borak elevation point.

15 Q. Thank you. From that location precisely, and in direction of the

16 town these tanks that I believe you said was a T-34 tank, although I don't

17 have the transcript here?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. These tanks, what was their range, please, from that location?

20 A. Tanks and their charges --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I believe that the witness has

23 testified about this. It is accumulative and repetitive.

24 JUDGE ORIE: At least as far as the position is concerned, it is

25 repetitive, Mr. Piletta-Zanin..

Page 16463

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed, Mr. President, but my

2 only reason for this intervention is to make things very precise in

3 relation to the questions that will follow with relation to the range,

4 direction of the town. And I believe that my memory serves me correctly,

5 because I have even quoted the type of the tank, the T-34.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I am just -- yes, Mr. Mundis

7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, again on our LiveNote page 53 line 25,

8 and page 54, line 1, the witness talks about the range of the tank.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the question has been put to the

10 witness, what was the range of that weapon.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. But the

12 question, Mr. President, now is as before, it is about the direction of

13 the town. Now, bearing in mind the altitude, considering that we know

14 that this was a -- from an elevation point, what were the areas in the

15 city that were theoretically and practically could be hit. That was the

16 question.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis, when I look at page 52, line 21, 22,

18 that was about a 20 millimetre anti-aircraft field gun, as far as I can

19 see.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, again, our LiveNote is slightly off,

21 but it is page 53, line 25, and page 54, line 1, and the witness clearly

22 testified as to the range of that weapon.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give me some words that would enable me to

24 find exactly the point you indicate.

25 MR. MUNDIS: I can do that, but I don't see any characteristic

Page 16464

1 words without giving the actual numbers --

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I can read that. Page 54, line 5. It says:

3 "The tank is a weapon that shoots, fires directly, I think up to 18 to

4 20.000 metres."

5 MR. MUNDIS: And Mr. President, also the question

6 is -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin attempted to rephrase it or explain it -- it was

7 not the same question which he had originally put to the witness to which

8 I objected.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And then the -- is there any dispute as to whether

10 the distance from the points just indicated by the witness to area

11 controlled by the Muslim forces, the BiH forces and the city would be not

12 over 20 kilometres?

13 MR. MUNDIS: There is no dispute about that, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then please move to your next subject,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 Q. Witness, you spoke on several occasions about shellings, shellings

18 carried out by the opposing army, about the BH Army, and you spoke to us

19 about the type of the mortar, specifically about the 120-millimetre

20 mortar. My question is the following: Did you personally see a number of

21 craters that resulted from the shelling by 120-millimetre mortars, and did

22 you see these craters in the asphalt; if you can answer with a yes or no,

23 I would be very grateful?

24 A. Yes, hundreds of them.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you saw hundreds of these craters made by

Page 16465

1 mortar shells of 120-millimetre calibre, can you tell us where as a

2 general rule would the tail-fin of the shell be, and I am speaking about a

3 hard surface, asphalt surface.

4 A. Well, not very far from where the shell would land.

5 Q. You say "not very far from where the shell would land" what do you

6 mean by that? Can you give us an indication in terms of a distance?

7 A. 20 or 30 metres, perhaps 50, depending on whether it would land

8 between the buildings, and if it landed between the buildings, then it

9 wouldn't have anywhere to go.

10 Q. Thank you. I conclude from your testimony that the tail-fin, as a

11 general rule, is ejected from the what we call the crater; is that

12 correct?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can rephrase the question.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but it is --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I withdraw.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... first putting the

17 question in a wrong way and then repeat the question in a different way,

18 that's not the way of examining witnesses. Please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, thank

20 you very much.

21 Q. Witness, did it ever happen to you that you found that tail-fin

22 closer than that distance that you said was dozens of metres from the

23 crater?

24 A. There were cases that the tail-fin was embedded in the asphalt,

25 that it was sticking out from the asphalt.

Page 16466

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, objection that was a

2 mischaracterisation to the witness's testimony with respect to "dozens of

3 metres."

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 20 or 30, perhaps 50, I think that could create

5 not great confusion. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'd like to continue on

7 another line of questioning in relation to weapons.

8 Q. You were speaking about a field gun. Witness, did you see

9 yourself other cannons or field guns apart from those that you've

10 mentioned? I understand that you've also mentioned a Browning gun. Do

11 you or have you seen any other field guns apart from those that you've

12 already mentioned in your testimony?

13 A. I don't understand the question. You mean of the opposing side or

14 in general?

15 Q. I am talking always about the opposing side, still.

16 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask you, before you answer this question,

17 did you see the Browning at the opposing side or with your own eyes?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 Q. Did you personally see other types of heavy weapons, apart from

22 those that you have mentioned so far?

23 A. I couldn't see the field guns.

24 Q. Very well. But you say that you were able to see tanks as such;

25 is that correct?

Page 16467

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you know apart from the field guns that

3 you've mentioned, other field guns that I do not wish to mention here,

4 could have been used by the opposing side in the area that you knew,

5 militarily speaking?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, it is leading and leading calls for

8 speculation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's leading and yes. It is really calling for -- if

10 you say "could have been used" that would ask -- "Do you know apart from

11 the field guns that you mentioned, other field guns that could have been

12 used," that is not a question about knowledge of the witness. So please

13 rephrase or move to your next subject, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, is the Prosecution ready to re-examine

19 the witness -- to cross-examine the witness?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be examined by counsel for the

22 Prosecution, Mr. DP18.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, unfortunately I

24 will not be able to follow what Mr. Mundis is cross-examining, since I do

25 not have the transcript and the LiveNote and to intervene, if need be.

Page 16468

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you can follow the

2 cross-examination by carefully listening and I offer could you my

3 assistance whenever you need to look back in the transcript. Please ask

4 me and I will be glad to assist you.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

6 Apart from that I inform you that by the end of the day you will

7 get a full copy of the transcript of today so that you can use it later.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I am also wondering if

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin could clarify whether or not he is receiving the

11 LiveNote on the monitor in front of him which is distinct from the laptop?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Can you see the text moving on your big screen?

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin nods in the affirmative.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

17 MR. MUNDIS:

18 Q. You testified this morning that your company had a self propelled

19 rocket, do you recall saying that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What type of weapon system was this?

22 A. It is like a tank. It is on tracks and it has a gun which is

23 90-millimetre calibre.

24 Q. Did it only have one -- this gun fired rockets, is that what

25 you're telling us?

Page 16469

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did it only have the one gun for firing rockets?

3 A. No, not rockets, shells. Yes.

4 Q. You told us it was a self-propelled rocket and now you are telling

5 us that it didn't fire rockets, but shells, is that what you are telling

6 us, witness?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I remember -- I

9 can't give you the reference -- but I remember in the English transcript

10 that there is -- it says self-propelled gun. This is what comes to my

11 mind. Perhaps it can be checked, but I cannot do it, and you offered your

12 assistance, and these are the three words that I still remember from the

13 interpretation that I was listening to absent-mindedly.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, on our LiveNote it is at page 43, line

15 19, and the following question from Ms. Pilipovic repeated the phrase

16 "self-propelled rocket."

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, I am first going to check what Mr. Mundis...

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, you also sought clarification from the

20 witness with respect to this system beginning on our system at page 44,

21 line 1.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, could the English booth offer an

24 explanation?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please listen to the English booth,

Page 16470

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes, please.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The witness spoke of a "self-propelled", but in

3 the B/C/S he didn't give a noun, which goes with it. Self-propelled gun,

4 but there are different types of self-propelled weapons. It could be a

5 vehicle, it could be any number of things.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that explains that, there might be some

7 confusion as far as language is concerned, then now please proceed, Mr. --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wanted

9 to say was that as far as I remember, what I read in the transcript as

10 being the answer of the witness was in English, that he had said

11 self-propelled gun. So I don't think that we should blame the witness if

12 his words were translated as being self-propelled gun. I am almost

13 certain of it. That's what I heard. I heard what the English booth had

14 said.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We only can follow though English. It is not

16 my recollection that anyone blames the witness for anything at all. You

17 asked whether we could assist you, I think we did it, and the interpreters

18 explained how they translated the words and what difficulty they faced

19 when translating the words of the witness.

20 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Just briefly I would like

22 to respond to Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The witness did or the English

23 translation does use the term "self-propelled gun" subsequently, however

24 at the points which I indicated the words rocket does appear in the words

25 of the transcript and I believe that was prior to Mr. Piletta-Zanin's

Page 16471

1 entry into courtroom this morning.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's not -- let's proceed.

3 MR. MUNDIS: If the large coloured map could be shown to the

4 witness, please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If no changes -- no, you need the map yourself, yes.

6 MR. MUNDIS:

7 Q. Witness, if I could first draw your attention to Grivici, do you

8 see that marked on the map?

9 A. Grivici.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. If you could please look approximately 1

11 centimetre to the west and slightly north of the "G" in Grivici, do you

12 see the numbers "712"?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could perhaps the map could be zoomed in in that

14 specific area where the witness is pointing at now, and perhaps have it

15 centred so that -- a bit more to the right. Yes. If it could be zoomed

16 in even more, that would be -- yes.

17 MR. MUNDIS:

18 Q. Witness, do you see where the numbers "712" appear?

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Those numbers refer to an elevation height; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If you could then please follow the red broken confrontation line

23 to the -- as directly below the 712 where it proceeds eastward to the

24 location Guncar, do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16472

1 Q. And immediately south of the words Guncar the numbers 806 appear

2 on the map; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that is also a hill or small mountain at the elevation of 806

5 metres; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness, if you would then follow the broken red confrontation

8 line in a south-easterly direction, do you see immediately north of the

9 red line the numbers "828" below the word "Tinovo"?

10 A. Tinovo.

11 Q. Tinovo Brdo is a hill with an elevation of 828 metres; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Witness, if you look approximately 3 centimetres to the south-east

15 of Tinovo Brdo, you will see the numbers "691" immediately to the north of

16 Kasatici, do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. 691 would also refer to a hill at the elevation of 691 metres; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Continuing to the east of Kasatici, we see immediately below the

22 word Lasac, another hill at 738 metres; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, this is Lasac.

24 Q. Witness, if you were then to go in a north-easterly direction

25 approximately 5 centimetres, you see Obeljak with an elevation of 1180

Page 16473

1 metres; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, I thought you would just go over a few

4 hills, but you are going for more. Since we are strictly bound to stop,

5 since this courtroom has to be used at 2.15, one hill, I would allow you,

6 but not more. If you have more, then please -- I know that it is very

7 inconvenient to interrupt at this very moment, but --

8 MR. MUNDIS: That is fine, Mr. President. If we need to break,

9 we'll break.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP18, I know that we have to stop just in the

11 middle of a series of questions, but we will continue tomorrow morning at

12 9.00 in the same courtroom. You are ordered not to speak with anyone,

13 whoever it is, not with counsel for the Prosecution, not with counsel for

14 the Defence, not with anyone at all about your testimony you have been

15 give asking you are about further to give. And we'd like to see you back

16 tomorrow morning in this courtroom. We will adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow

17 morning, same courtroom.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

20 the 28th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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