Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16474

1 Thursday, 28 November 2002

2 [Open Session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]

8 JUDGE ORIE: I hear a lot of a language that I cannot understand

9 on channel four, so there must be some technical problem. Could we just

10 see -- now I hear only my own voice, which is certainly not more pleasant

11 than what I heard before, but it's English now. On five we now have

12 French, and I do understand that we have B/C/S on six. So everything is

13 now as it should be.

14 Madam Registrar, could you again call the case in a language I

15 understand.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

17 Stanislav Galic.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19 Before the Prosecution continues to cross-examine the witness, I

20 was wondering, the Chamber was wondering whether we would get any

21 additional information about maps. Yes.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. We met with the Defence

23 yesterday. I anticipate that I will be in a position to give you some

24 more information and an example at 11.00, if that is convenient to the

25 Trial Chamber.

Page 16475

1 JUDGE ORIE: We are anxious to hear at 11.00 what news there is

2 about maps. Then we could continue with the cross-examination of the

3 witness. Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

4 courtroom.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP18.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

9 solemn declaration that you have given at the beginning of your testimony.

10 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask with the

12 assistance of the usher that the witness be shown once again the large

13 coloured map. That would be map C2, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS DP18 [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

18 Q. Witness, yesterday when we took the recess we were focussing our

19 attention on the feature on the map marked as Obeljak, do you see that on

20 the map, and if you do can you please point to it with the pointer.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. And that feature according to the map has an elevation of 1180

23 metres; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you could please --

Page 16476

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If you could please look to the north-east of Obeljak,

3 approximately 3 centimetres you'll see a feature marked as Golo Brdo or

4 Golo BR. Do you see that on the map and can you please point to it.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That feature, according to the map, has an elevation of 1246

7 metres; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And finally, Witness, if you could look in a north northerly

10 direction slightly to the east of Golo Brdo, past the word "Lukva" do you

11 see another feature mark would an elevation of 1063 metres?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, Witness, I've asked you to draw to the Trial Chamber's

14 attention what is basically an arc of elevated hills from the Grivici area

15 through this hill that we just marked near Lukva. Can you please trace

16 the line on the map with the pointer of the hills that we spoke about.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Thank you. During the period that you've testified about, that is

19 1992 through 1994, these hills were under the control of the VRS; is that

20 correct?

21 A. No.

22 Q. At what point in time did the VRS come to control these hills?

23 A. From the end of July 1993.

24 Q. And from the end of July 1993 through the period at least to

25 include August 1994, the VRS maintained control of this arc of high

Page 16477

1 ground; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in effect, Witness, the area of Hadzici and its surroundings

4 settlements and villages compared the high ground that you've just

5 indicated was at a lower elevation; isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness, yesterday you told us that you saw on the ABiH side two

8 T-34 tanks; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you recall testifying that the range of that weapon system is

11 18.000 to 20.000 metres?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Witness, I suggest to you that the effective range of the T-34

14 tank is more along the lines of 900 to 1.000 metres. What is your

15 response to that?

16 A. That's not true.

17 Q. During the course, Witness, of your military training in either in

18 the JNA or your military experience with the VRS, on how many occasions

19 did you personally train on the T-34 tank?

20 A. Never.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further

23 questions at this time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a

Page 16478

1 number of questions that stem from the cross-examination.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, first of all, good morning.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. You were asked about the moment when the VRS took control of the

6 elevations in the surrounding area of the sector that we were talking

7 about, the urban sector we were talking about. My question is the

8 following: At the time that you mentioned, and I believe that was summer,

9 that is July of 1993, which battle took place at the time when these

10 elevations were taken?

11 A. Well, there were battles for Obeljak, Stupnik and Golo Brdo.

12 Q. Very well. And when you are talking about the fighting, what can

13 you say in relation to their importance and what I mean by that is what

14 was the intensity of the exchange of fire? How long did the fighting

15 last? What was its duration and so on?

16 A. I think it was for one day, day and a half, that's how long the

17 fighting lasted for these elevations.

18 Q. What type of exchange of fire?

19 A. There was infantry and artillery fire on both sides.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'd like to come back to the question of

21 the tanks, the T-34 tanks. A question of the Prosecution and you said

22 that you never said any training on the T-34, and my question is the

23 following: Were you, however, in contact during either your military

24 service or during the war, were you in contact with weapons like tanks,

25 for instance, T-34s?

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Page 16480

1 A. With T-55, yes, but not with T-34.

2 Q. Very well. My question is the following: You said that your

3 weapons were often targeted by the weapons of the opposing side, the army

4 of the opposing side. And when you are speaking about the range of these

5 weapons, did you receive precise instructions regarding the protection of

6 your own weapons in relation to the tanks that could be active?

7 A. Yes. My crew was at about 2.000 metres away from that tank.

8 Q. Very well. And were you able to -- or I'll rephrase.

9 You still able to be a target for this tank at that distance?

10 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That is a leading

11 question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please refrain from leading,

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Q. Witness, you said -- I'll rephrase the question. Were you ever

16 the target of firing from a tank during the period of the war?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, that is also a leading question.

18 JUDGE ORIE: When your unit was targeted, do you know by what

19 weapons you were targeted?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the tank T-35 [as

21 interpreted] is concerned, my crew wasn't targeted personally, wasn't

22 because we were sheltered, we sheltered ourselves, but it did target other

23 -- our colleagues, our fellow combatants.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you see that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 16481

1 JUDGE ORIE: And where at that very moment was this tank, and I

2 now hear T-35, was located exactly?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] T-34.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It must be then an error in the transcript.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on the Borak hill, on the

6 Borak hill.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that was at approximately what distance from

8 your positions?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 2.000 metres.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were exactly where located at that

11 moment?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From our tank position -- from the

13 tank position -- sorry, on the Kopisanj hill above Hadzici.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you see it with binoculars or with the

15 naked eye?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was possible with the naked eye,

17 but it was better to see the type of the tank with the binoculars because

18 it wasn't such a long distance, particularly the infantry from the bunkers

19 were able to see it with a naked eye.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness, you spoke about fighting with infantry weapons, do you

23 remember that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you be more specific as to what were the infantry

Page 16482

1 weapons used?

2 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President, these questions do not

3 arise out of cross-examination.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Present, I have

6 simply -- I am simply asking the questions around tanks, but throughout

7 the time the witness answering said that there was fighting of artillery

8 and infantry weapons when these elevations were taken or retaken in 1993.

9 In a sense that he is speaking about fighting, about the infantry and

10 infantry weapons, I believe that it is the right, absolute right of the

11 Defence to continue to question on this point so that we know where did

12 the firing go.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as my recollection goes,

14 the Prosecution asked when the hills were taken, and I think that you

15 asked for further details in respect of the battle during which

16 the -- during which the hills were retaken by the forces of which

17 the -- in which the witness participated. So it does not arise out of

18 cross-examination. One question would not be, but it should not be

19 something really an issue that should be dealt with more extensively. So

20 if you had more questions in mind, I would like to ask you to move to your

21 next subject, and if it is just one or two questions, and I really mean

22 one or two questions, then please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It won't be necessary,

24 Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: That means no further questions?

Page 16483

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right. That's what I

2 meant, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I heard that you said "ce n'est pas la peine"

4 and it was not immediately clear to me that that meant that you had no

5 further questions. Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you,

6 Mr. DP18.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Might the witness be shown the coloured map,

9 please. With the pointer would you please point to your positions on that

10 map.

11 A. My unit?

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Now, would you please point to the positions

15 of the tank or of the tanks.

16 A. It is this hill, Kopisanj here.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Please point to both positions again.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That's the first one.

20 A. There is -- it is a very small area here, so it will be this small

21 circle here where this plateau was. Approximately, the plateau was about

22 3 to 400 metres large.

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That was when? Which is the date of

24 the -- the date in which the BH Army was there?

25 A. They were not here. These were our positions.

Page 16484

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Please, point to the positions where the tanks

2 were, the tanks, the BH Army tanks were.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That's different, yes. Thank you. No more

5 questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Since Judge El Mahdi and myself have no further

7 questions for you, this concludes your testimony in this court. Mr. DP18,

8 I thank you very much for coming the very long way to The Hague and for

9 answering all the questions of both parties and of the Bench and I wish

10 you a safe trip home again. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, can you please escort the witness out of

13 the courtroom.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Far from me for wanting to

18 interrupt whatsoever, but it could happen that the witness arrives

19 somewhat belatedly, because the instructions that we gave to the competent

20 unit was based on the fact that we thought that the Prosecution would

21 continue for longer with the cross-examination. So if this is the case,

22 if the witness comes late, we apologise, but we didn't know.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will first try to find out where the witness

24 is. But before doing so, perhaps we first deal with the documents in

25 respect of the Witness DP18. Madam Registrar.

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Page 16486

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1807, under seal, pseudonym sheet.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That document is admitted in evidence.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has not yet arrived, but is expected to

5 arrive in a couple of minutes. Before we continue, I'd first like to go

6 into closed session -- private session.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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14 [redacted]

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25 [redacted]

Page 16487

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9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I make it clear to both you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

13 and to the Prosecution that the Chamber would certainly welcome whatever

14 proposal to have maps where the parties could agree upon. From your

15 beginning I take it that you have not reached such an agreement. Under

16 these circumstances, the Chamber would prefer to first listen to a party

17 that comes with a proposal, then hears the possible objection of the other

18 party, and not spend too much time on that. Because the Chamber has

19 received a lot of maps with or without objections, and finally, if the

20 parties cannot agree upon maps, then the Chamber will have to do it with

21 the maps that are tendered in evidence and are admitted into evidence.

22 And it's -- we could go on until January, February or March to discuss

23 maps. The Chamber, as I said before, would certainly welcome whatever

24 shared proposal by the parties, and otherwise the Chamber will hear what

25 the parties are offering, the Chamber will hear the objections and will

Page 16488

1 give a decision. That will be the following order. Yes.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If I may

3 simply indicate what I wanted to say. My objection is of a strictly

4 methodological nature. We object first of all for the following reason:

5 The maps that the Prosecution wanted to tender a moment ago, are maps that

6 include new information, this is not cartographic information at all, it

7 is technical information which has nothing to do with the geography or

8 cartography and which would tend to introduce new information for your

9 Chamber which was never submitted to the Defence on the one side, and on

10 the other never to the witnesses.

11 Therefore, as far as the map itself is concerned to show it to

12 your Chamber as such would imply something that is not admissible because

13 it would be like tendering exhibits with additional information that was

14 never communicated to the Defence within the frameworks prescribed by the

15 Rules. And in that way one would, undercover, to put it that way,

16 introduce information that we don't need and as such, this is not

17 acceptable.

18 And that is the reason that we formulated our objection above all

19 for methodological reasons.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are telling us what is on

21 the map that has not been proposed to us. So in order to understand your

22 objection, I would and this Chamber would stick to the order, that is also

23 a matter of methodology, and that you first see what is proposed and

24 better understand what your objections are because we have no idea what

25 will be on those maps.

Page 16489

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

2 JUDGE ORIE: We heard what you said before I said it. The

3 following order would be if one of the parties comes up with whatever

4 maps, we will see what it is we will hear the objections and then we will

5 then decide.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would request

7 from your Chamber - I am sorry - that it render a decision to the effect

8 that if a map of whatever kind needs to be tendered -- is to be tendered

9 by the Prosecution, that it should not contain other information or

10 indication than information contained in other prior documents. And

11 certainly not tendentious additional information.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I will give a decision when the map has been tendered

13 when we have heard the parties about it. A general decision on what kind

14 of maps could and under whatever circumstances would be admitted would not

15 be a decision that the Chamber will take at this very moment.

16 Is there anything else you would like to raise?

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I am taking steps at the moment via

18 email to have the maps, that is the samples brought down to court

19 immediately. It may well be that I could start my submissions in a matter

20 of a minute or so. It may be in two parts. There may be some further

21 documents available by 11.00, but at least we could take advantage of the

22 available time to commence that procedure, if those maps arrive in the

23 next minute or so.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will wait one or two minutes, and if not we

25 will have a short break. Let's see what happens during the next two

Page 16490

1 minutes.

2 Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I hand up some copies of a

6 document and provide one to the Defence as well. I trust that five will

7 be sufficient.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- At this stage I would like

11 to rephrase a formulation. That was not the map that we saw when we had

12 our discussion. I fully understand the embarrassment of the Prosecution,

13 but this is not that map.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this is exactly the reason, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

15 why the Chamber prefers first to see what maps are offered and then hear

16 any objections to it.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respond to that? I

18 specifically said to Mr. Piletta-Zanin yesterday that the map I handed him

19 then would not be the map that I would hand to the Trial Chamber this

20 morning.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it was time available anyhow these few minutes.

22 So let's restart about the maps. Please proceed, Mr. -- Unless the

23 witness is already -- the witness has arrived. Perhaps you -- perhaps we

24 start with the maps so that we --

25 MR. IERACE: Yes, certainly, Mr. President.

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Page 16492

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- We know at least what we have to think about in

2 the near future.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Office of the Prosecutor has

4 received some new software on the 6th of November 2002 which enables our

5 mapping people to produce a different map on the same information as is

6 contained in the sniping and shelling scheduled incident maps with a

7 projection that enables the use of a ruler to determine with precision the

8 distance between any two spots on the map.

9 Secondly, we are now able to produce maps with more visible

10 contours. This software was very expensive. I understand it to be in the

11 order of many thousands of dollars for one license alone. What I have

12 handed up is an example based on incidents 3 and 8 because evidence in the

13 last week or so has particularly focused on the part of Sarajevo which

14 concerns those two incidents.

15 Mr. President, there are now on this sample, two ways of measuring

16 distances between any two spots regardless of whether the line between the

17 two spots is horizontal, vertical or diagonal. That is, by referring to

18 the 100 metre delineation points on the horizontal and vertical axis, that

19 is the latitudinal and longitudinal lines, alternatively by using the

20 scale which appears at the bottom of the map.

21 In producing this projection, objects on the original maps are

22 elongated and so the circles indicating the suspected source of fire

23 become oval shaped. The black depictions of buildings become in some

24 cases perhaps longer or shorter. I emphasise that the change in shape of

25 those symbols does not effect lines of sight.

Page 16493

1 Mr. President, this software enables other steps to be taken in

2 relation to the same information. I do not propose at this stage to

3 tender that material unless the Trial Chamber wishes to understand more

4 about it. It may indeed well be that in case in rebuttal by the

5 Prosecution that we produce further maps, as a response to issues raised

6 for the first time by the Defence in the Defence case.

7 Mr. President, the software enables one to determine lines of

8 sight, in other words, to produce a -- it can be done in different ways,

9 firstly by producing a 3-D image of the topography, and then manipulating

10 that 3-D image on the screen. By the word "manipulation" I mean simply

11 turning it around so that it can be observed from different angles.

12 Secondly, lines of sight can be determined on this two-dimensional

13 depiction. In this particular example there are changes in the colours of

14 the lines of sight between green and red. Red indicates portions along

15 that line of sight that could not be seen. That depiction, of course,

16 assumes, has to make assumptions as to how high, if at all, above the

17 ground level the eyes are at the suspected source of fire. It makes no

18 allowance for vegetation. One can factor in a height at the suspected

19 source of fire, if, for instance, one assumes the person is standing or

20 wishes to see what the line of sight would be if a person was standing,

21 one could factor into the software a height for argument's sake 1 3/4

22 metres and then see what line of sight is produced.

23 Mr. President, at a later point, at 11.00, I will hand up an

24 example of that 3-D image, but I emphasise the purpose in doing so is

25 simply to acquaint the Trial Chamber the parameters of this new software

Page 16494

1 in terms of what is possible and what is not. Can I just add this: I am

2 concerned that in tendering these maps, if the tender is accepted, we will

3 not have the benefit of changes made to the, for instance, to the

4 confrontation lines by a number of witnesses in the -- some in the

5 Prosecution case, most in the Defence case. I respectfully submit that

6 the purpose to which these new maps could be put is if one regards the

7 maps already tendered as the primary exhibit, but wishes to supplement

8 that exhibit with information as to the precise distances between two

9 points, one could identify the two relevant points of the maps already

10 tendered, then go to these maps, locate the same two points, and then make

11 a measurement with confidence.

12 Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to

14 answer, I would have two questions, Mr. Ierace. The first one would be,

15 is it possible on these maps to take out the confrontation lines?

16 MR. IERACE: Yes. As I understand it, it is. I can confirm that

17 by 11.00.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So that would mean that the -- what is on the map

19 then would just be, as you say, lines of sight, at least lines between two

20 different points. Then my next question would be: What is the basis for

21 the measuring of the height, because I see on these maps there are lines

22 that indicate that what elevation these lines are. Usually they go, I

23 take it from 50 metres, 50 metres up, 50 metres down. But, of course, if

24 I am in a position behind a rock of 12 metres high --

25 MR. IERACE: Yes.

Page 16495

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- I see would nothing as far as the lines on the map

2 are concerned, but nevertheless the rock could take my view.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain to me how these I would say minor

5 details in the terrain are dealt with by this system?

6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. As I understand it, the

7 buildings are incorporated so that if a building blocks a line of sight,

8 that is, a building which appears on the map symbolised, then that is

9 taken into account. The number of contours can be adjusted on the maps so

10 that one could see a large number of contours at a shorter distance in

11 altitude. I will give precise answers to those questions at 11.00, if

12 that is convenient.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but would these contours also include natural

14 features? I do understand that vegetation is not among them, but, for

15 example, the example I just gave, behind the rock of 10 meters high.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, I would need to consult with the map people to

17 answer that question. Rather than indicate what I suspect to be a

18 situation, I prefer to consult first.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So, no final answer to that.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes.

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I have a question. I have this map. This map

22 is the former map on the sniping incident number 3, the one that we had

23 before. The new one is taken from this one or from the original of this

24 one?

25 MR. IERACE: In a manner of speaking, Your Honour, the information

Page 16496

1 which was used to produce the earlier maps is used to produce this map

2 with a different projection, and in this particular case, indicating what

3 could be seen along those two lines of sight.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is because the confrontation lines

5 are not the same, as far as I can see. There is a difference.

6 MR. IERACE: Excuse me a minute, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: To give you an example, the confrontation lines in

8 the area we are talking about never come as close as on this draft, on the

9 left-hand side of the draft, close to the 3 and 8 points. I never saw

10 them so close to each other and certainly not on the other map.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will check that, Mr. President and Your

12 Honour, and I will respond to that at 11.00 if that is convenient.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 [Interpretation] Mr. Ierace, could I ask you a question, please.

18 I was wondering about the map which is the original for all these maps.

19 Whom did it -- who published it, who made it, on what date, and is it the

20 only one available or rather several maps of the region?

21 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I understand that the satellite imaging

22 which is entered into the software and which provides the topographical

23 information was recorded around 1997, 19 -- somewhere between 1996 and

24 1997. The other detail which appears in the maps such as streets and so

25 on, I understand comes from a map which was produced immediately following

Page 16497

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Page 16498

1 the war. Again, I will check that precise information by 11.00. Does

2 that answer your question, Your Honour?

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much. But I

4 would also have a question to put to Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I, of course, if

5 the President allows me. I am at your service.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Do you think it is more useful to

7 ask Mr. Piletta-Zanin your question before I give him the chance to react

8 or whichever you prefer.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, it hasn't got to do with

10 these maps, it has to do with the origins of the maps tendered by the

11 Defence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] I also have some questions about

13 that. I would suggest that we give the floor to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to

14 react first and as we have additional questions we could put them to him

15 after his response.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] As you wish, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please, you

18 have the floor.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the

20 assistance of Madam Usher, I should like to place a document on the ELMO

21 that we received from the Prosecution. I am doing it because we only have

22 one copy and in that way we can all see it, if I have your permission.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I apologise. What I am asking

24 you as a question is the origins of your map --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I thought that

Page 16499

1 question would come later. Which map are you talking about?

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] The map of the army, the large

3 military map.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The C2, I see. I am going to

5 consult with my colleague and ask him -- when you mean "origin," you mean

6 you wish to know who published it, the same question addressed to the

7 Prosecution.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, who and how and as regards

9 the authenticity as well.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for your question,

11 Your Honour. The answer that we can give you at present is the following:

12 It appears, but I underline, it appears that these maps are of the General

13 Staff maps, which mean that they were produced by the General Staff

14 machinery, on what technical basis I can't tell you now, and we will

15 consider that matter and see what other purely technical information we

16 can provide you with regarding the date the map was produced, for

17 instance, then the scientific entity, that is, the author of the map, et

18 cetera, but this is information I am unable to give you offhand now.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the

21 assistance of Madam Usher, could you please place on the ELMO this

22 document.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know where the colour

25 can be seen well on this reproduction, Mr. President, but we can see very

Page 16500

1 well on this document that represents the same zone as the other map. We

2 can see very well that on this map the red line is far longer than the

3 green line, and I would be grateful to the usher if she could point with

4 her finger the end of the red line, please because we will see it better

5 if you point it out to us. Thank you very much. And the other line.

6 Thank you.

7 So it is now clear for everyone --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to ask the usher to zoom

9 in on the circles on the top because on the screen I see a totally

10 different colour, and I do not see the numbers 3 and 8 appear. So I am

11 not quite sure that we are looking to the same map as has been handed out

12 to us. Could we please see -- I see some two blue ovals at the left top

13 corner without any numbers in it, whereas I received a document which says

14 "draft" and which has two red ovals with the numbers 3 and 8 in it. So,

15 therefore, I would very much like to know that everyone has been handed

16 out the same -- I am just -- yes, please proceed.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have here a

18 map of the same area. We can recognise the same hills to the right. They

19 were -- this is the map tendered by the Prosecution --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. On the right there

21 are orchards.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And they concern the same

23 incidents, that is incidents 3 and 8, which can be seen at the bottom of

24 the map, and we will see that later. What we see is that the red lines in

25 this first version are much, considerably longer than the red lines in the

Page 16501

1 other document.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Prosecution gives another map,

3 and to tell the Chamber that you could produce -- that they have handed

4 out to you yesterday other maps, the Chamber has to concentrate on what it

5 is presented with.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that if I ask whether the

8 confrontation lines could be taken out, I take it that you could change

9 whatever you would like to change in this map. So that the -- I think the

10 Chamber is fully aware that changing the data, changing the colours,

11 changing the lines, that you could produce many maps, and the Chamber will

12 have to consider whether the map presented by the Prosecution or a map

13 presented by the Defence would be an acceptable document to work with.

14 So there is, at this moment, as far as I am concerned, I can't

15 imagine that you would even move the orchards on maps so there is no need

16 to explain on these kinds of documents you could easily change

17 things -- yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I want to

19 say is that there is a considerable difference between the methodology

20 used before and the methodology used now. Because before we only had the

21 theoretical line, theoretical line of fire, that's it. Now, today, what

22 we are being proposed is the result of brand new software that would

23 enable us not to have the theoretical line, but the witness or the person

24 there would have seen. So what is happening is the Prosecution, they can

25 enlarge that red area as much as they like, and that is the new element

Page 16502

1 against which we object. Because it is sufficient to say, we can say from

2 2 metres high, we can see everything, for instance. And the confrontation

3 of these two images show us very well, what is the danger of wanting to

4 apply computerisation at any price in this trial, in this case. And this

5 is our main objection. We cannot accept that the computerisation is

6 trying people, even if it is in the 21st century.

7 Mr. President, the second part which I wish to enlarge upon, is

8 that this map is more visible in its longitude and its latitude. That

9 means that we can also work with the diagonal. But what I do know is that

10 it was perfectly capable to obtain such a map much before the testimony of

11 the witnesses and we know that a system was applied as from 1996 and 1997.

12 And what I do not understand is why they did not wish to have -- to

13 produce such a map so that the witnesses can have a look at it, rather

14 than having them lose their bearings. And in spite of the position of the

15 Defence from the very start we said we will not be able to work this map,

16 and we were told a lot of things about equator and such like. And finally

17 we have got a map which is a little more visible, but this should have

18 been done beforehand rather than now, producing maps on which witnesses

19 will not be able to give information because they didn't have the

20 necessary information. Thank you.

21 Because they didn't want to be given -- they didn't want to give

22 them the right information.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's an allegation which -- may I first ask

24 the -- Mr. Ierace, the map as it is shown to us now, that means without

25 stretching on either the longitudinal or the other direction, could that

Page 16503

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Page 16504

1 technically be done before? Could that -- yes.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the -- in terms of the software that

3 the OTP has, it could not practically have been done until the 6th of

4 November. I am told that we received an intermediate update of the

5 software approximately nine months ago, but for various technical reasons,

6 we didn't have the ability to properly produce a map with the corrected

7 projections, if you like, to enable a measurement.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So, then do I understand that when Mr. Piletta-Zanin

9 asks you why you did not produce it, but why you did not wish to produce

10 it, the leading element in that question, that is the assumption that you

11 did not wish to do it, that you reject it.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I absolutely reject that. Before the

13 Prosecution case began, we did everything we could to come up with maps

14 that were legible in the sense of with contours that could easily be seen

15 with distances that could easily be measured. And that was the best we

16 could do at that stage. As soon as I learned of this software which

17 happily coincided with the expression of the Trial Chamber of some

18 concerns about the ability to measure distances, I took steps to see what

19 could be done with it produce maps such as what we now have. This is

20 effectively hot off the press.

21 Mr. President, in relation to the discrepancy that

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin points out between the sample I gave him yesterday and

23 the draft today, that is explicable by where one places the suspected

24 source of fire with absolute precision. The one yesterday had that source

25 of fire placed roughly in the centre of the circle or oval now, and this

Page 16505

1 shows the view from the edge. I would like to see these maps with the

2 circle shaded area, now an oval shaded area, transparent so that one can

3 see the contours and the terrain beneath it. And it demonstrates the

4 sensitivity of the software to changes in the topography depending on

5 where the person is, and what distance they are above the ground. And I

6 am happy to provide the Trial Chamber with the relevant information which

7 led to the map yesterday, as well as the map -- the information which

8 leads to the lines of sight in this map.

9 Might I just emphasise, Mr. President: At this stage it seems to

10 me the important features are the ability to measure distances between two

11 points and the more visible contour lines. As to lines of sight, what can

12 be seen and can't be seen, Prosecution laid evidence in its case by way of

13 photographs and eyewitness evidence as to lines of sight. The Defence has

14 raised some further issues for the first time, such as the height of trees

15 and orchards, and the Prosecution reserves its right to respond to issues

16 raised for the first time in case in rebuttal, and that includes lines of

17 sight. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very briefly.

20 I have the impression --

21 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

25 have the impression that the Prosecution didn't really respond to the

Page 16506

1 Defence in a sense that the question asked was to find out, and this is

2 what the Defence would like to know, to know whether this software is

3 extremely sensitive, whether this software existed at the time when the

4 problems already appeared with these maps, at the time of the Prosecution

5 case, that is, there are many months from that now. And the Defence

6 believes that such software existed at the time of that case, and I think

7 we've had the confirmation of that by the Prosecution. At the time when

8 the problems appeared, they should have been resolved and not at the time

9 of the Defence case.

10 And we maintain that in a way our rights have been offended

11 because it is very hard to work with the witnesses on these maps when they

12 don't recognise the locations any more or areas that have been distorted

13 in reality on the layout of the map. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it the position of the Defence that you

15 should always provide the most updated material you have?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. The

17 position of the Defence is that one shouldn't always produce documents

18 that are erroneous, and what we are saying is that these maps are

19 erroneous and we can see now, and we are reiterating, it is not about

20 using high technology, it is about having things presented in a clear way.

21 And to have given just an ordinary map would have been a lot simpler and

22 would have been a lot less costly for the international community, and

23 really I think this should be a very large effort, a considerable effort

24 being made here.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, your argument is clear. We will hear further

Page 16507

1 details from Mr. Ierace later today. Madam Usher, can you please escort

2 the witness into the courtroom.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP16, because we will call you

7 DP16, since protective measures have been granted in respect to you. That

8 means we will not say your name and your face cannot be seen apart from in

9 this courtroom by ourselves.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Good morning to you,

11 and I thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP16, before giving testimony in this court, the

13 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

14 that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 The text of this solemn declaration will be handed out to you now by the

16 usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean aloud?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Aloud, yes, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS DP16

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr. DP16.

24 You will first be examined by counsel for the Defence.

25 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

Page 16508

1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. First of all, with the assistance of the usher, I am going to hand

4 you a piece of paper and if you could please have a look at it, read it

5 and if the information contained on this sheet of paper is correct, just

6 confirm that that is the case, just say yes, if that's not the case, then

7 say no.

8 A. Yes, they're correct.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the sense

11 that we would like to ask some questions of situations and personal

12 details --

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... private

14 session.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 16511

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Since we are in open session, you may proceed,

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 Q. Witness, please bear in mind what I told you earlier. If you may

16 give any information, stop and ask if we can go to another form of

17 session. Thank you.

18 Witness, where were you exactly in the spring of 1992, what memory

19 do you have of that period of time?

20 A. Spring 1992. You probably mean the very beginning of armed

21 conflict or just before that.

22 Q. Yes, very much so. I am talking about the period that was just

23 before the breakout of the conflict, and then of course that period

24 itself.

25 A. When we are talking about this problem, then we should start with

Page 16512

1 the month of March 1992, that is from the period of the first barricades

2 in the city of Sarajevo. I was, throughout that period, in Sarajevo, but

3 most of the time, of course, together with my family near the place where

4 I lived.

5 Q. Thank you. What happened to you from the moment when things

6 started to get worse following the barricades that you mentioned?

7 A. The barricades lasted, I think, two days and two nights, that is,

8 the beginning of March. And I believe that the purpose of the barricades

9 was to make the leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina more serious so that they

10 shouldn't make any mistakes. There was a kind of self-organisation that

11 happened of certain groups of people and nations in the city of Sarajevo.

12 That's what it looked like in reality.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, you spoke about self-organisation, can you

14 tell us more about this self-organisation? What do you mean by that?

15 A. That really demands for an explanation and not really to state the

16 fact itself. To state the fact itself, that is to say that we, and I now

17 represent just part of the Serbs, only part of the Serbs who lived in the

18 territory where I lived, and part of the Muslims who lived in our

19 immediate vicinity. We were --

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that. I ask that that be

21 redacted. The witness doesn't speak for part of the Serbs or part of the

22 Muslims, but for himself.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand your answer to be that you did not

24 feel -- that you did not have the same feelings and thoughts as you

25 consider all the Serbs would have. Is that how I have to understand your

Page 16513

1 answer?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness can

5 proceed.

6 Q. Please, Witness, proceed with what you were going to say.

7 A. On the ground things happened as follows: We, the Serbs, and

8 Muslims who were in our immediate vicinity in the location where I lived

9 in a self-organised manner had put up these barricades. And at some part

10 of these barricades we had a joint guard, that is, the joint barricade,

11 which was supposed to represent security for both sides.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you just give us some information,

13 not about the barricades themselves, but on the way that the idea appeared

14 to put up, to erect, these protective measures? Initially, how did

15 that -- where did this idea come from to proceed to this self-protection?

16 A. Well, you see, we were all neighbours after all, and this very

17 term "neighbour" is very strong in Bosnia-Herzegovina and has meaning.

18 And this protection that I mentioned earlier, that is the joint barricade,

19 was evidence itself for ordinary people, that is, for women and children,

20 for the elderly, and for the people who were not willing to participate in

21 any kind of intense clashes. And that was proof about the possibility of

22 resolving a problem differently.

23 Q. Very well. But that is the fact of the barricade. But the

24 decision-making process itself, and perhaps I am addressing you as

25 philosopher, how did that happen? How did this idea -- how was this idea

Page 16514

1 born in the spirit of the people?

2 A. You mean self-organisation or the barricades themselves?

3 Q. I mean the self-organisation.

4 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, all of us and particularly in Sarajevo,

5 Sarajevo was a political for of Bosnia-Herzegovina, we were all more or

6 less forced to follow political events in the immediate vicinity, and also

7 wider and further afield in the -- throughout the former Yugoslavia. We

8 were aware, we were conscious that something bad was going to happen. And

9 this organisation was the result of the bad politics of some politicians

10 that I wouldn't name individually. But in relation to the organisation of

11 that part of the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at that time the Republic of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that part composed of Serbs. I would put this

13 different, from a historical point of view, I can state the fact that all

14 the peoples who lived in that part of the Balkans, in my opinion, in some

15 way have the pressure of history from the bad side, which is, in my

16 opinion again, one of the key reasons why the self-organisation happened

17 on the level of defence from the neighbour.

18 Q. Thank you very much. You spoke about -- you spoke about

19 self-organisation, to start with, and then you spoke about

20 self-protection. Now, I would like to suggest that after the break --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because Mr. President, it

22 seems to me that it is time for the break --

23 Q. That you tell us about the second part of the question.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

25 it is now time to have a break.

Page 16515

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Page 16516

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will adjourn until 11.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think we should first continue with the

5 witness, perhaps, for a while because so many interruptions is not good

6 for a witness. And I think it is not of vital importance that we hear

7 your information on the maps right now, but we could hear it at a later

8 stage today.

9 Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the

10 courtroom.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Witness, you spoke to us about self-organisation before the break,

15 on the one hand, and at the same time you spoke about self-defence. So my

16 question is self-defence against whom?

17 A. If there is self-organisation by a group of people, then it was

18 done precisely for the purpose of self-defence against another group of

19 people which, in this case, conditionally speaking were Muslims. But why

20 am I saying "conditionally"? Because at that point in time there was the

21 Territorial Defence consisting only of one group of people in Sarajevo.

22 We are aware of the fact that the absolute majority were Muslims, and I am

23 also aware and I can testify under oath in my personal name that within

24 our group the majority were Serbs, but they were not all Serbs.

25 And that is what the self-defence was like. There were certain

Page 16517

1 parts of the city of Sarajevo in which certain people dominated as being

2 the majority population in that area. And that is how those self-defence

3 groups were formed.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you mentioned this distinction

5 between Serbs on the one hand and the Muslims on the other. During the

6 period you are describing, that is, the period immediately preceding the

7 beginning of the armed conflict, what did you see in the streets that

8 would be of interest to this Chamber? I am referring specifically

9 regarding the activities and organisation of the part called the Muslim

10 part or the Muslim side.

11 A. What is of interest and what was conspicuous to all the citizens

12 of Sarajevo was the emergence of the so-called Green Berets.

13 Q. Let me stop you there. In two words, will you tell us what the

14 Green Berets were, and above all, when they appeared, as far as you can

15 recollect?

16 A. A Green Beret is a green military cap worn by a certain group of

17 people, and later on it became a military formation called the

18 Green Berets, and as far as I can remember, they appeared in the streets

19 of Sarajevo at the end of 1991.

20 Q. When they appeared in the streets of all Sarajevo, were they

21 organised in groups or did they appear individually?

22 A. Usually in town I would see them individually in the streets, in

23 the trams, trolley buses, buses, but as an organisation I noticed them

24 when I went to Television Sarajevo to appear as a guest in one of their

25 programmes. They examined my ID documents and they engaged in the

Page 16518

1 security affairs which until then was done by the regular police that we

2 would see every day.

3 Q. Witness, can you tell us when this happened, this particular event

4 that you are referring to?

5 A. This event occurred in March 1992.

6 Q. When exactly, at the beginning, in the middle?

7 A. At the beginning.

8 Q. And where exactly did this occur? You said that you went to the

9 television building. Was it on the premises, on the way there, at the

10 entrance, could you be more precise, please?

11 A. Like all Security Services they were at the entrance to the

12 Sarajevo television building.

13 Q. Thank you. And did you have the feeling that these people were a

14 part of the institution, the television itself; yes or no?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How would these people tolerated by such an institution because

17 after all, the people in the institution knew them, if you know, of

18 course.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to leading and the question

20 in any event is inappropriately addressed to this witness because it seeks

21 a comment as to the attitude of the institution.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. If I may

23 respond. He did not comment on the attitude of the institution -- I

24 didn't comment on it. I just asked the witness whether --

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... different way.

Page 16519

1 Do you know anything about the television institute, whether they agreed

2 with the presence of these people next to the building?

3 A. I can give you a negative answer, but I would like to add a

4 sentence, if I may.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you say you do not know anything about it,

6 but you would like to add a sentence. Please add that sentence.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that they looked the same as

8 any security service in certain institutions. Up to then it would be the

9 police wearing regular police uniforms which we had come to be accustomed

10 to. This time they were wearing different uniforms, green military

11 uniforms, not the uniforms of the police. And the others were not

12 present.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Did you notice that the security was provided by

14 different people from what you experienced before, but you do not have any

15 knowledge as to whether the television institute would have agreed with

16 their presence or not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with what you have just

18 said.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, you spoke about green uniforms. Was there anything else

22 in addition to those uniforms that this group called the Green Berets were

23 wearing?

24 A. In the streets I didn't see them carrying any weapons.

25 Q. In the streets. In any other places apart from the streets, did

Page 16520

1 you see anything?

2 A. Only in this particular place that I went to visit, that is the

3 television building, they did have pistols.

4 Q. You were saying that you went there yourself. Did you go there on

5 more than one occasion?

6 A. Yes, I went on several occasions.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, I should now like you to tell us how -- no, I

8 withdraw that.

9 Could you please tell us what you personally did at the time the

10 armed conflict in Sarajevo started?

11 A. I had a private company which --

12 Q. No, no. I will stop you there. I don't wish you to give us such

13 identifying information, and on the other hand, that was not my question.

14 At the moment the time the war broke out in Sarajevo did you take part in

15 it, that is my first question; yes or no?

16 A. If you are talking about the war that went on from 1992 to 1995,

17 the answer is yes.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Where were you stationed and during which

19 period?

20 A. Throughout the time of the war I was at Grbavica, that is where I

21 was stationed.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Could you tell us with greater precision

23 what part of the line did you defend in those days?

24 A. My group of men was positioned at the Jewish cemetery.

25 Q. Very well. You will certainly be asked to draw those positions,

Page 16521

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Page 16522

1 but since you are talking about the Jewish cemetery, I have several

2 questions for you. Do you know whether there was any construction at the

3 bottom of the Jewish cemetery? Was there a building there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what type of building it was?

6 A. There was a chapel.

7 Q. And this chapel, was it within the cemetery walls; yes or no?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you know, Witness, whether this chapel, as you call

10 it, was - and if so during which period - in the hands of one of the

11 conflicting parties in this area; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us which side held control of this chapel and for

14 what period of time?

15 A. For the duration of the war it was held by the Muslim party.

16 Q. How do you know this? How are you able to assert that in this

17 Chamber?

18 A. I looked at it with my own eyes throughout the war.

19 Q. Did you see during the duration of the war soldiers of the BH Army

20 entering, leaving the building or occupying that building?

21 A. Whatever you have mentioned, I would see during the war and

22 something else that you did not mention, and that is that they opened fire

23 from it.

24 Q. When you say that they opened fire from it, was this occasional or

25 something that happened frequently or very frequently? What could you

Page 16523

1 tell us?

2 A. Certainly it was very frequent.

3 Q. And what type of weapons were used?

4 A. Infantry weapons.

5 Q. What was the direction or directions in which fire was opened?

6 A. Towards the positions -- the positions of the group of people I

7 belonged to were west of the Jewish cemetery, so the direction was towards

8 the west.

9 Q. Did you return fire?

10 A. As frequently as they opened it.

11 Q. And as you were a soldier during the time of the war, did you ever

12 receive instructions, Witness, from the military structures regarding:

13 One, the opening of fire; and two, the problem or the question of

14 respecting the rights of the civilian population?

15 A. We received orders from the high command through our commander,

16 that is, our immediate superiors in relation to us ordinary soldiers. And

17 all these orders boiled down to economising with the ammunition and

18 absolute respect of the civilian population.

19 Q. Thank you. To make things even more clear, could you tell us in

20 general terms what was your military training?

21 A. I personally did not serve, do my military service in the

22 Yugoslav People's Army, so that I have no military experience. I had no

23 military experience prior to this.

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, you mentioned the instructions you received.

25 I would like you to tell us the frequency with which those instructions

Page 16524

1 were conveyed to you?

2 A. In any case, every time when we had to go and fetch fresh

3 ammunition, and sometimes with greater frequency.

4 Q. But I am also talking about the protection of the civilian

5 population when opening fire.

6 A. Could you be clearer, please.

7 Q. I am -- I had asked you about economy with the ammunition and you

8 answered that question. The second aspect had to do with instructions

9 given you regarding the necessary attention that should be paid to the

10 civilian population, in other words, the protection of civilians during

11 combat.

12 What was the incidence with which such instructions were given to

13 you? I am no longer talking about ammunition, but about the protection of

14 the civilian population.

15 A. Those types of instructions were very frequent, but I must observe

16 that the civilian population could not be seen by us in the immediate

17 vicinity of the separation lines.

18 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Could you tell us what your company

19 was and your unit were, your companies and units?

20 A. In the first stage of the war, it was a 3rd company of the 3rd

21 Battalion, and in the last stages of the war, my company changed and in

22 the same battalion I was a member of the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik detachment

23 which was a separate detachment, a separate company of that same

24 detachment.

25 Q. Very well. But still in the same position?

Page 16525

1 A. I, personally, was not in the same position, but the zone of

2 responsibility was the same.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, before we ask you to point to the

4 front lines on a map that will be shown to you, will you please answer

5 this question: I am not speaking strictly about the front line, but

6 rather of the depth of the line, that is, the technical depth, that is

7 various services, the supplies, and the command areas. According to your

8 experience, what were the depths of the front lines in the broader sense

9 of the word?

10 A. This is a question that it will be difficult to answer correctly,

11 but if I am talking about Grbavica as a part of the territory of the city

12 of Sarajevo which during the war was held by the Serbs, there was no depth

13 virtually, though large -- an enormous number of the civilian inhabitants,

14 and I am referring to women, children and the elderly, stayed on to live

15 in that area. But one could conditionally speak of the depth between the

16 front lines of roughly one -- behind the front lines of roughly 100

17 metres.

18 Q. Witness, where was the headquarters of the battalion, what was the

19 distance between it and the closest front line?

20 A. The command of my battalion was roughly 1 kilometre away.

21 Q. Thank you very much. And also, could you tell us what was the

22 distance between the closest front line and the command of the company

23 this time, your company command headquarters?

24 A. Then the distance would be only a few dozen metres.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I will now show you a map with the

Page 16526

1 assistance of the usher.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And I should like to point out

3 that we didn't have a sufficiently long piece of paper to copy everything

4 that we wanted to copy, and that is why some maps could not be copied.

5 Q. Witness, do you recognise the map being shown to you and placed on

6 the ELMO; yes or no?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, will you please take note of two things that

9 are noted: First of all, not to write anything on the map unless you are

10 asked to do so; and secondly, when the Defence asks you to write things,

11 to do so with a black pen and never with a blue one.

12 Witness, could you find on this map the places where you were

13 stationed as a soldier during the events?

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to an

17 area situated slightly to the right of the word "Grbavica" that we can see

18 on the map, south of the Miljacka river.

19 Q. Witness, my question now has to do with the other riverbank. On

20 the other side of the river, were there cultural monuments or religious

21 monuments of importance, such as, for instance, mosques; yes or no?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I didn't hear your answer, Witness, I am sorry. Could the

24 microphone be placed closer to you, perhaps?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16527

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Page 16528

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for the transcript, where the

2 witness pointed and where you said it was right of the word "Grbavica," I

3 would say that it was approximately in the area where the -- between the

4 streets indicated by Luka Teli and Travnicka on the map close to an area

5 where some symbols as to -- at least close to a small green area. Please

6 proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 Q. Witness, you answered "yes" but could you please repeat your

9 answer, whether religious monuments, cultural or religious monuments were

10 on the other side facing you.

11 A. You said across the Miljacka river.

12 Q. Indeed.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you please pick up a pen and

15 indicate, for instance, if there were any, could you tell us where were

16 the museums that were right facing your positions, and since I was also

17 speaking about religious facilities, the mosques.

18 First of all, museums.

19 A. From this position where I was --

20 Q. Just simply opposite Grbavica, what were the museums? I think

21 that it is possible to distinguish them, to find them on this map. Could

22 you please just put a circle around that point.

23 A. Here was the national museum.

24 Q. Very well. You circled two facilities. Is that the same -- the

25 same facility in reality? We see two "M's on the map, is there one museum

Page 16529

1 or is there two museums?

2 A. These are two museum, one is national, and one is the revolution

3 museum which is the museum which was made as to memory -- in memory of the

4 Second World War.

5 Q. Could you please just put a number 1 and a number 2 there?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Could you please point to a mark which is opposite of Grbavica

8 also on the same area visible on this map.

9 A. First of all, what's visible is the Catholic church.

10 Q. Very well. Can you please mark the Catholic church also. Could

11 you put number "3" there. And then I'd ask you to mark a mosque which is

12 in this area, if there were any.

13 A. Yes, there was -- perhaps I am going to make a mistake, because it

14 is not visible from the positions, but its location was here.

15 Q. Very well, thank you. I know that you don't have military

16 experience or not very long military experience, but do you know if one or

17 more of these objects or these facilities could be hit by indirect hits,

18 that is, by mortar fire? This is a hypothetical question. I am not

19 saying that you targeted these facilities, but it is -- was it possible to

20 hit these facilities with mortars, with mortar fire; yes or no?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: The transcript does not reflect that the witness

25 circled the mosque. Perhaps the circle could be marked with a number so

Page 16530

1 that it can be correlated to the transcript.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest we take number "4."

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise and I thank the

4 Prosecution for pointing it out.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please put a "4" to where you circled the mosque.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did mark number "4."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but -- yes, please proceed, then. That does not

8 appear in the transcript, so --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I withdraw my thanks to the

10 Prosecution, Mr. President.

11 Q. Now, Witness --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, that was just

13 uncourtesy. You would have understood, yes. Yes, I take note.

14 Q. Witness, my question is the following, you answered yes, it was

15 possible theoretically and technically speaking, it was possible to hit

16 with indirect fire these facilities. And in relation to number 4, and it

17 is also valid for the 3, the 2 and the 1, also, did you ever receive any

18 instructions, any orders from your military hierarchy, from your

19 superiors, to target in any way possible one of the four of these

20 facilities; yes or no?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you. Have you ever received instructions, orders, from your

23 military superiors that would have made you target similar facilities?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Now, Witness, could you please now take time

Page 16531

1 and draw, if you can, the confrontation line as you have known it, but

2 first of all, could you please point to it with a pointer so that we can

3 avoid a possibility of an error. Take -- could you please pick up the

4 pointer and point to where you think the line went and then you can mark

5 it with a black pen. And perhaps just to make this task simpler, Witness,

6 Witness, Witness? Witness? Witness?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I am sorry. Could you also please give the names of the streets

9 so that we can later on find them in the transcript. Thank you.

10 A. I will start with the Serbian part which goes from this hill

11 called Zlatiste, and the line went below this yellow road. And here there

12 is a hill called Staro Brdo, and then the line went this way, turned this

13 way, and here this empty space is the so-called Debelo Brdo, and the line

14 then went down to the top of Travnicka Street and it followed the 315,

15 that's number 315, and then it followed the wall of the Jewish cemetery.

16 This street called, now called wrongly because these are the postwar

17 street names, probably before the war the street was called

18 Nevesinjska Street and this street went to the bottom of the Jewish

19 cemetery and then up to number 397, which is the continuation of the

20 Travnicka Street and then following the yellow road, so-called transit

21 road at the time of the war it was empty, deserted, there were no trenches

22 there but the trench went below the road. The ground is sloping downwards

23 here towards the Miljacka river and then the line went along Ljubljanska

24 Street that you can see here, and then it followed the line 409 which is

25 Trnovska Street, that's its old street and then down there there was a

Page 16532

1 Beogradska Street where there was a famous red building, and at number,

2 somewhere near 533 that we can see on the map, that's where the building

3 was where the bank, the economy bank of Sarajevo was located, and that was

4 the last trench on the Miljacka river.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please now pick up a pen and can you

6 just go back and follow this itinerary on the map.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And I should like Madam Usher

8 if she could zoom it on this route, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. In relation to this line that you drew, I

12 would be grateful if you could now place a cross and a number "5" at the

13 point that you previously called the chapel, please. The chapel.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you very much. And since we are speaking about the enemy

16 lines, could you please draw but with a dotted line, not with a full line,

17 the positions of the opposing side, of the enemy side in this area,

18 please.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you, Witness. I can see that you have established the first

21 pocket. But does it mean that there was a problem, a mistake, with this

22 pocket or was there some kind of a network of the trenches and sort of

23 intersection? Did you understand the question?

24 A. Yes, precisely here. Yes, you are probably speaking about this

25 part.

Page 16533

1 Q. Yes, that's correct.

2 A. For the moment I just forgot that above the Jewish cemetery,

3 that's the famous Debelo Brdo, where the Muslim units had created a pocket

4 with the system of trenches -- with the communication trenches, and here,

5 below here, it says Staro Brdo, but in fact it was Zlatiste, there was

6 also a pocket here where they had very strong sniper strongholds.

7 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. You spoke to us about a hill which

8 is called Debelo Brdo. Now, as this name suggests, this was a point that

9 was higher than your positions, I am speaking about Debelo Brdo.

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. You spoke about that the opposing side had weapons on

12 that hill. What kind of weapons did the opposing side have on that hill?

13 A. In any case, these were infantry weapons with the reservation that

14 in that pocket that is at the very end of it, end point, there was a very

15 strong sniper nest, what kind of weapon it is exactly, I don't know.

16 Q. Very well, on this hill was there anything else that was located

17 there, apart from the infantry weapons? Was there anything else on

18 Debelo Brdo?

19 A. On Debelo Brdo, no.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Were there positions with heavy weapons,

21 with types of heavy weapons in that area, and I am talking about the enemy

22 positions on the enemy side.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object to leading on any of this.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will rephrase.

25 Q. Witness -- no, I will rephrase.

Page 16534

1 You said that you -- there was firing on you from the direction of

2 the famous chapel. Do you remember you said that?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Thank you. Was this the only place from which you were fired at;

5 yes or no?

6 A. No. No.

7 Q. So there were other locations?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us with which weapons were you targeted;

10 yes or no?

11 A. From all kinds of weapons that is used in war, fire was opened on

12 my lines.

13 Q. Very well. Specifically speaking, there, this location during

14 that period, what type of weapons are you speaking about?

15 A. All types of shells that were at the disposal of the -- disposal

16 of the Army of the then Yugoslavia, they were at the disposal of the

17 BH Army and those shells were falling on our lines.

18 Q. Very well. You are speaking about the shells. But as far as

19 direct targeting is concerned, not indirect targeting, what kind of

20 weapons were used?

21 A. In any case, all calibres from 556 to 12.7.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Starting from which calibre do we consider a

23 weapon "heavy weapon" do you know?

24 A. As far as I know, from 12.7.

25 Q. Thank you very much. What was the heavy weapon used, because you

Page 16535

1 said 12.7?

2 A. Its abbreviation, it's Pat, that is anti-aircraft gun or cannon.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Since you came under fire, that kind of

4 fire, I conclude that this fire was fired open from these Pat guns, and

5 this was used in horizontal mode or as we call it, the ground mode.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object to leading.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are giving all details you

8 expect from the answer. That's not --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So would you please --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

12 Indeed, but I was trying to save time, considering that the witness said

13 that he was fired at, and he was fired at with an anti-aircraft gun, and

14 if he was not up in the air, then it is very likely that he was fired at

15 in ground mode. So that is what I was trying to find out. So I have to

16 find out differently now.

17 Q. Witness, how do you explain that you were fired at with an

18 anti-aircraft gun, although you were not up in the air? Could you please

19 answer?

20 A. This war that went on in Bosnia-Herzegovina is probably one of the

21 very characteristic wars, the way that it was fought, and that's the only

22 way that I can interpret this, except that I would just like to make a

23 slight correction as to the abbreviation that I said for 12.7. It is not

24 a Pat, but it is a Pam, that is an anti-aircraft machine gun, although Pat

25 was also used in -- for ground combat.

Page 16536

1 Q. Very well. How was this Pam, the anti-aircraft gun, used

2 considering that you were not in the air, but you were on the ground, do

3 you know?

4 A. And did I know because on several occasions I was targeted by this

5 very same Pam, and I can draw and show you this location where the Pam

6 fired from and where I was.

7 Q. Very well.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP16, have you any knowledge on the modes that

9 can be used in anti-aircraft guns? Do you have any knowledge about how to

10 use such a weapon, the ways it can be used?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, personal experience.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you know what modes can be used?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.

14 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the different ways of using such a

15 weapon?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the modes, specifically

17 speaking, is that I was personally targeted with an anti-aircraft

18 machine-gun.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you use such a weapon, how would you use that, to

20 do what?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in a position to be near that

22 machine-gun, but I never used it. So I can't answer that question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 Q. Witness, tell me how can you be certain that this machine-gun was

Page 16537

1 used, very briefly, when you were targeted by it?

2 A. If I had known that you would ask me that, then I would have

3 brought the bullet or rather several bullets that were targeting me,

4 that's the only way that I had proved it to myself what I was targeted

5 with by some people.

6 Q. Thank you very much. You wanted to identify the location from

7 which you were targeted. Could you please indicate it on the map; yes or

8 no?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Very well. Could you please point to it and could you now

11 please -- I believe now we are at number "6," mark number "6".

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you very much. The witness has done so. Would you please

14 indicate the direction of fire, covering this machine-gun, this

15 anti-aircraft machine-gun?

16 A. From this position towards the locality of Grbavica. So that

17 would be a wide area, wider area towards Grbavica.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness points to the back

19 of his lines to the west of the map in the direction of the word

20 "Grbavica."

21 Q. Witness --

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if we could have a

23 more specific description, either perhaps you should do it, Mr. President,

24 or I am happy to do it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point again exactly where they fired

Page 16538

1 it from, from there to -- in what direction?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this here. From location

3 number "6" in the westerly direction in the direction of Grbavica towards

4 Vraca, up to the centre, urban centre of Grbavica.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness pointed from point "6" in westerly

6 direction, from south a little below where it reads "Vraca" on the map, up

7 north to Grbavica, the built-up area, even a little bit further north from

8 the word "Grbavica" itself. Please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, did you see other weapons that were active and used by

11 the opposing army, specifically, artillery weapons that were used?

12 A. As far as the city of Sarajevo is concerned from which fire was

13 opened towards Grbavica and our positions, I personally saw two combat

14 vehicles, both were tanks.

15 Q. Very well. Where did you see them, please?

16 A. One tank I saw on the Hum hill which faces the south, that is,

17 faces us, and it is on the northern side of Sarajevo. And the second tank

18 I saw going out of the tunnel at the Ciglana locality.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 MR. IERACE: We have heard much evidence from this witness about

21 specific incidents, nothing as to time frame of what the Defence calls

22 "chronology." The witness has said that he was there throughout the war,

23 as I understand it. It is of little use without a time frame. And my

24 respectful submission is that should be done in chief, and not in

25 cross-examination.

Page 16539

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, especially if you are not talking

2 about positions that might have been held for a longer period of time, but

3 such observations as to tanks, would you please ask the witness to specify

4 a time.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will specify, yes.

6 Very well.

7 Q. Witness, in relation to these two tanks, first question, before

8 the time frame question, was this tank active; yes or no?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. When, if you can say this, when did you see it or when

11 did you know that these tanks were active, which period, which year, et

12 cetera?

13 A. According to what people -- what I heard from people throughout

14 the war, but from what I have seen, that was at the end of 1992 and the

15 beginning of 1993.

16 Q. Thank you very much. And it was firing in which direction?

17 A. In the direction that I can indicate, which is the direction of

18 Debelo Brdo, that is, the barracks Bosut.

19 Q. Very well.

20 A. And Zlatiste, these lines held by the Serbs.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness indicates the

22 barracks located practically on the line where there is a large pocket

23 that is marked on the map, and then in an area which is bluish, slightly

24 below, above the word "Staro Brdo."

25 Q. Witness, the same question for the time frame or chronology in

Page 16540

1 relation to the Pam, what you called anti-aircraft machine-gun --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it could create some confusion

3 where you said it was -- he was pointing at an area north, at least above

4 Staro Brdo. He pointed at an area just south of the line he has drawn as

5 being the VRS line, just on a relatively empty area north-west of where it

6 reads "Staro Brdo." Where he indicated before where was Debelo Brdo.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just another matter. The witness has

9 told us he has saw two tanks, one on Hum, one at the Ciglana tunnel. It

10 is not at all clear which of the two tanks he is referring to as having

11 fired at the barracks. Perhaps that could be clarified.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I thought he did.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that can be

14 done through the cross-examination. The witness said that he saw both

15 tanks opening fire, so he used the plural.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, Mr. DP16, how often did you see

17 the tank at the tunnel firing in late 1992, early 1993?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, very rarely, but it

19 did open fire.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but how often? One time? Five times? 10

21 times? 25 times? Approximately. I am not asking a --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judging by what I personally saw, it

23 was five times. I personally saw that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I was looking for. And the same

25 question for the tank at Hum hill. How often did you personally see that

Page 16541

1 tank fire?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That tank, according to what I saw,

3 opened fire only once towards Grbavica, because it was deployed on a

4 BH Army positions facing the northern part of the separation line between

5 the Army of Republika Srpska and their forces in the area of Vogosca, so

6 that it opened fire in that direction.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So you saw it firing only once to Grbavica. Please

8 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, what was the distance between Hum and your position as

11 the crow flies, approximately?

12 A. Hum and the position of the Jewish cemetery in my judgment, the

13 distance is more than 3 kilometres.

14 Q. And the shell reached the area?

15 A. It wasn't the tank from Hum, but from Ciglana.

16 Q. I see. Thank you. The same question for the anti-aircraft

17 machine-gun. From when was it used, et cetera, during which time period?

18 A. Very soon after the beginning of the war and throughout the

19 duration of the war.

20 Q. Thank you. Regarding weapons generally, Witness, you told us that

21 you were self-organised. What did you know about the organisation of the

22 adversary regarding the question of armaments, specifically?

23 A. As far as the organisation of defence in Sarajevo is concerned, I

24 think that it was very similar to the way our side was organised. As for

25 weapons, in the city of Sarajevo we all know that a number of buildings

Page 16542

1 that used to be used by the Yugoslav People's Army which when they left

2 Sarajevo or rather when the JNA withdrew from the territory of Sarajevo

3 and beyond, a large portion of the weapons was left behind in the

4 barracks, so that it was accessible to the opposing side.

5 Q. Will you please give us brief answers, as far as you can. To be

6 specific, do you know whether the adversary had access to those weapons in

7 the barracks; yes or no?

8 A. This was shown on television.

9 Q. Witness, did you know of any industrial facilities that were

10 situated opposite your positions in Grbavica; yes or no?

11 A. Specifically, facing my line there were no industrial facilities.

12 Q. Very well. Are you aware of a building that could have been used

13 for industrial purposes by the adversary; yes or no?

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object to leading.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I be heard,

17 Mr. President?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think that the

20 question is leading. I am just asking the witness whether he knew certain

21 things, and I am saying -- using the term, a building that could have been

22 used. I don't see how else we could proceed. I don't see how else -- in

23 what other way I could put that question.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The -- as a matter of principle, I think every

25 building could be used for, that's rather my problem than leading,

Page 16543

1 perhaps. Whether it seeks speculation, let me just read the

2 answers -- the questions again.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- To save time, perhaps I can

6 rephrase the question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. We've spoken about weapons, Witness. This was at the beginning of

10 the war. Do you know how the problem of weapons as well as that of

11 ammunition was addressed and resolved, perhaps, by the so-called Muslim

12 forces in Sarajevo as the hostilities developed? What do you know about

13 that, if you know anything?

14 A. I can say something about that thanks to my experience as to what

15 was used to open fire at us and what fell upon us.

16 Q. Yes, please do that, briefly.

17 A. In the first stage of the war, it is true that the Muslim forces

18 had poor or poorer weapons and they used home-made shells and explosives,

19 mines and explosives. And what fell on us was an indication of this. In

20 any event, one could call that amateurish.

21 Q. Very well. And as from when did the situation change, according

22 to you?

23 A. Upon the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army, following their

24 withdrawal.

25 Q. Could you give us the exact date, please?

Page 16544

1 A. It may be difficult, but in any event it was in May 1992.

2 Q. Will you please concentrate on the map to your right and I would

3 like you to add some information on that map. Was there, Witness, in this

4 area in which the two parties were in confrontation, were there any

5 military observation posts? And I am, of course, referring to UN

6 positions.

7 A. Yes, there were.

8 Q. Could you localise them and use the following numbers: 7, et

9 cetera, onwards, from 7 on.

10 A. In the immediately vicinity of the bridge, the Vrbanja Bridge,

11 there was a French unit post behind the chapel, behind number "5." On

12 this yellow road was an observation post number "8" held by French units.

13 At the top of Debelo Brdo, there was another French observation post,

14 number "9," and at the top of the Jewish cemetery number "10" was a

15 position held by Russian forces. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Again I object on the

18 grounds of relevance, unless we have the chronology, unless we have the

19 times.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Gladly.

22 Q. Would you please tell us when those observation posts were

23 established, please, and for how long they remained there?

24 A. I may be mistaken regarding the month, but January, February or

25 March 1994, and until the end of the war they remained there.

Page 16545

1 Q. Thank you. Witness, would you please now tell us with respect to

2 a map --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we were not

4 able to copy everything, but before that, as I have -- before showing

5 another map, we would like to submit another exhibit which will be D334,

6 with the assistance of the usher, whom we thank. The coloured ones for

7 the Chamber and a coloured one for the witness. I have another coloured

8 copy. There were three for the Chamber, but something happened which I

9 don't criticise.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We're fine.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, do you recognise this building that we see on the screen?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Thank you. So it is a red building. Is it the red building you

15 mentioned a moment ago?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us where it was situated on the map

18 indicating the name of the street, could you point to it on the map?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If the map has gone, we will ask it to be brought back. How can

21 you explain what -- that something seems to be missing in the middle of

22 this picture?

23 A. May I -- shall I mark with a number this location?

24 Q. Yes, please do so.

25 A. Number "11."

Page 16546

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, perhaps we could put the

3 photograph on the screen again. Could you leave the map there, please, as

4 well. Put the photograph on top, please, photograph on top.

5 Q. Witness, there is an empty space in this building. Do you know

6 how it occurred, if you know?

7 A. The Muslim and Serb units were separated in that building by a

8 single wall of one apartment. Because of continuous and direct

9 provocations and firing, what happened was that a part of this building

10 toppled because inside there were gas installations, because before the

11 war, this building had heating by gas.

12 Q. Thank you. Was there destruction of this kind in Grbavica, I

13 mean, within the area that you were defending, that is Grbavica, and if so

14 what were the causes of such destruction?

15 A. The answer is yes, but as a rule the only major damage was on the

16 very front lines of combat.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can remove the photograph

19 and show the witness a map. Unfortunately, Mr. President, we didn't find

20 any maps that were not previously marked, but we will tell the witness not

21 to pay any attention to the indications on this map, if that is acceptable

22 to everybody.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the question you put to the witness

24 are unrelated to the markings already appearing on the map?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, they are unrelated,

Page 16547

1 Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask you one

3 clarification. When you asked the building in the photograph was the red

4 building he mentioned before, and since I tried to understand the context,

5 I couldn't find where the witness referred to a red building before, so I

6 am missing the context.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] He said very quickly, I don't

8 know whether he said it in Serbian, because I can't follow all three

9 languages at the same time. I know he mentioned it. As far as I can

10 recollect, he mentioned when he was taking up the pointer and before

11 drawing the line, I see him nodding his head, so my memory is good, he was

12 indicating where the line was going. And when he ended his description,

13 he said this is where a red building was, but I can look it up, if

14 necessary. It was at that point in time when he mentioned it.

15 MR. IERACE: Page 50, line 17.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So I missed it. I apologise for the time taken.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness to your right is a map, do you recognise that area?

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't have a copy of that map.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I have two got copies and my equality is not always

22 fully respected.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

24 hope that everyone has a map now.

25 Q. Witness, do you recognise this area appearing on your -- to your

Page 16548

1 right and on your screen?

2 A. Yes, only it is more magnified than it was a moment ago.

3 Q. Very well.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Madam Usher, we could

5 send her on the area around 24 and the red circle that we see on the map,

6 that we could focus in on that. Thank you very much. Stop.

7 Q. Witness, I would be grateful if you could disregard the two blue

8 lines that you see on this map. And I would also be grateful if with a

9 black marker you could localise, if you can, the place where the defence

10 lines of the adversary were. Use a black pen and do so in a dotted line.

11 If they are the same, you can just leave them. I am talking about the

12 lines held by the adversary.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Have you indicated thereby, the lines held by

15 the adversary, that is the BH Army?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness could you indicate --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for clarification for myself,

19 was this line held by the adversary during the whole conflict? Did it

20 ever change or was it stable during the whole conflict, Mr. DP16?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the exception of these two

22 pockets, the rest of the line was stable.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It didn't change.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You say the two pockets, you mean the pockets on the

Page 16549

1 south of the cemetery, the first one, and the second one, Debelo Brdo.

2 Yes. Thank you.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again it would be helpful to the

5 Prosecution in terms of the indictment period to know whether the pockets

6 were existent during the indictment period or after or before.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say that the pockets, that's where the lines

8 changed. Were the pockets made later and then when?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These pockets were made on the 6th of

10 January 1994.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Both of them?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's very clear. Thank you.

15 Q. You went around the red circle on this map. Could you, as we are

16 not on the same map as before, what was situated inside that red circle,

17 within the red circle, if there was anything in it?

18 A. The chapel at the Jewish cemetery.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would be grateful if you could

20 place a "K", a single "K" within that circle, if you could, please.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And for things to be quite clear, you spoke to us a moment ago of

23 a chapel held and occupied by the adversary, that is the Muslim forces.

24 Is that the same buildings that you have just marked with a "K"?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16550

1 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, at any point in time during the

2 conflict did the forces of the VRS or the Serb forces use this chapel

3 during the conflict; yes or no?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, the indication of the cemetery is

6 given a name, the word is written out, and also it is lighter in colour;

7 is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. What were -- what was on the edges of the cemetery?

10 Was there something that marked the area in reality, physically, that 1s

11 the area of the cemetery?

12 A. Yes, there was a large stone wall.

13 Q. When you say "a large stone wall, you mean large in terms of

14 length, or breadth or height or all three? Or you mean something else?

15 A. All of that together.

16 Q. Very well. Roughly how high was the wall?

17 A. Two to three metres.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I must then ask you how then could you see

19 people entering and leaving the chapel, you yourself?

20 A. The place that I will indicate now to you is a small hill with an

21 orchard from which I had a view over the walls.

22 Q. Very well. Thank you. Will you please not mark anything on the

23 map, unless you are asked to do so. Thank you.

24 I would now like to ask you something else. Do you know what a

25 Dragonov is?

Page 16551

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for the transcript, the witness

2 marked a very small circle approximately in the middle, just west of the

3 cemetery on the map. Please proceed.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you know what a Dragonov is; yes or no?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Witness, from your positions, whatever they were, did you have a

8 line of sight, a direct line of sight to the point that one could see

9 before, but we can't see it now.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So we must enlarge the map.

11 Q. So from your positions, wherever you were, did you have a direct

12 line of sight towards point "24" and how?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Why not?

15 A. First of all, because I lived in the area all my life. I know all

16 positions exactly by heart. And this map does not reflect the real state

17 of affairs on the ground. So that point "24" is not visible from the

18 position I was in because the view was obstructed by some buildings that

19 are in front of it.

20 Q. Could you show those buildings to us?

21 A. This building is the Assembly building of Bosnia-Herzegovina which

22 obstructs the view to the crossroads at Marijn Dvor and plus, this area

23 here is also walled in with a large wall, and these buildings are actually

24 an old warehouse that burned down in the first days of the war. And those

25 walls also obstructed the view to this position, and specifically, the

Page 16552

1 crossroads on the ground.

2 Q. I will interrupt you there.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the

4 witness pointed to two buildings. The first, the first image is to the

5 north of the word "Marijn Dvor" or more precisely, the word "V-O-R" and in

6 a lighter colour right next to it, several buildings in a schematic form,

7 forming a polygon of red colour that are the warehouses the witness was

8 mentioning.

9 Q. The last question before the break, you spoke about the perimeter

10 wall and I was asking you about the view that you might have had of the

11 red dot marked with a number "24." Let me ask you the same question now,

12 but in a hypothetical sense, not regarding the line of sight, but a line

13 of fire. Was it possible, as far as you know, to be able to fire at and

14 hit point "24" from the positions that you held?

15 A. Do you mean infantry weapons such as a rifle?

16 Q. I am talking about a direct -- direct fire, yes, rifles.

17 A. From positions that I was at, it is impossible.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

20 whether the break is now or at a quarter to?

21 JUDGE ORIE: The break is now, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes. We will

22 adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00. May I ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how

23 much time you would approximately need? I know that you are not yet at

24 the time indicated, but, of course, the experience of the last few days

25 gave hope to the Chamber that all parties would speed up.

Page 16553

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You are referring to the days

2 when I was absent, I am sure, Mr. President. It will be relatively brief,

3 as it has been the past few days, but I am not able to tell you just now.

4 I have to confer with my lead counsel.

5 JUDGE ORIE: To now, I think you used 1 hour and 40 minutes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as for the other topic, do you wish

8 that be discussed today or should I go straight into cross-examination?

9 JUDGE ORIE: It also matters how we proceed with this witness and

10 I will perhaps take a decision whether we will deal with it today or

11 later. I know I am always stealing minutes from you. We will adjourn

12 until 5 minutes to 1.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into

16 the courtroom.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, welcome again into the courtroom.

21 And with the assistance of Madam Usher and of course with the

22 leave of Mr. President, we will ask you to have a look at some

23 photographs.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the Exhibit number is

25 D339. D339. And I'd ask Madam Usher to put the photograph on the ELMO.

Page 16554

1 Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, do you recognise this view that you can see on the

3 screen; yes or no?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. In the centre, in the middle more or less of the

6 image, and there is a yellow building, and perhaps we could zoom on the

7 two buildings in the centre of the photograph that we are interested in.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please zoom a little

9 more, please. A little more. Thank you. Stop here.

10 Q. These are two -- oh, yes, here it is. Thank you.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom again

12 because we had lost -- thank you. Stop here. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, do you recognise the picture or rather the building which

14 is to the left, the building which has a yellow facade, can you see that,

15 yellow walls, outside walls; yes or no?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us what this is?

18 A. Holiday Inn Hotel.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know if this building was used for

20 other purposes, apart from civilian purposes, during the war?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You don't know that?

23 A. Not from personal experience, but according to information.

24 Q. From what sources?

25 A. From the people who came from the parts of Sarajevo under the

Page 16555

1 control of Muslim forces and they were crossing over to our side.

2 Q. Thank you very much. For the French booth, it is not the "other

3 towns" but the other parts of the town.

4 And what did they tell you? What did you learn from them?

5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, on the same basis as on

6 earlier occasions, we now -- the witness is now invited to tell us what he

7 has been told by unknown persons at unknown times in relation to uses at

8 unknown times.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,

10 this is rather surprising from someone who has issued an indictment --

11 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sorry.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is rejected. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the

15 Chamber understands that it is sometimes difficult to have direct sources

16 available from information, what happened at the other side of

17 confrontation lines. On the other hand, you also should be aware that

18 since the other party, the Prosecution in this case, is not able to

19 cross-examine the sources, that, of course, the probative value will have

20 to be assessed at a later stage. And the more precise you are in relation

21 to the sources, the lesser the disadvantage for the Prosecution will be.

22 So please keep that in mind, but we will allow such questions on hearsay,

23 but I thought it wise to make the observations I just did.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 16556

1 First of all, I apologise. I didn't see that you were conferring, and I

2 thought I had your invitation to respond.

3 Q. Witness, could you specify with giving us small details with

4 regard to the information that you had about this building, with more

5 details?

6 A. Yes, precisely that. The fact is that a large number of people of

7 Serb nationality crossed over to this side from the Muslim part, that is

8 from the part of the city of Sarajevo that was held by the Muslim units.

9 And the sources are these people.

10 Q. Thank you. To the extent that these people told you about this,

11 for what purposes was this building used for?

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question presumes that the

13 communication was direct to this witness. He has not yet said that.

14 Perhaps we could clarify that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we first try to find out better about

16 the sources, because that is a problem, of course, if we allow hearsay.

17 Please clarify this issue first, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, indeed.

19 Q. Among these people who left the city and would have brought

20 information with them, were there some of them that you knew directly and

21 who had spoken directly to you about this; yes or no?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Can you, yes or no, give their names?

24 A. That shouldn't be a problem.

25 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

Page 16557

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, should I

2 proceed with the names in which case we perhaps would have to go into

3 closed session or can we be satisfied with this demonstration?

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think we should be as detailed as possible in this

5 respect. We turn into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Now, without giving the names of the people that you have told us

25 about, can you tell us, what did these people tell you directly to you

Page 16558

1 about this building and about its use for military purposes?

2 A. Yes. They told us the moment when they crossed over, that is in

3 the discussions we had after they crossed over, that this building apart

4 from it being used publicly as the seat of the journalists from the entire

5 world, this part of the building that was facing us, that's facing us on

6 the photograph, that this part of the building was used for military

7 purposes, that it had its positions from which firing -- fire was open

8 towards the positions of the Republika Srpska Army at Grbavica.

9 Q. When you say "from where firing was open" what with was fire

10 opened, from which weapons, please?

11 A. Infantry weapons, ordinary rifles.

12 Q. Very well. Are you here referring to a specific type of military

13 action?

14 A. In any case, your question demands a larger explanation.

15 Q. If you are able to do that, please.

16 A. The way of waging war in Sarajevo was specific, particularly in

17 this territory, in the urban area of the city of Sarajevo, all taller

18 buildings were used as sniper positions and as such, particularly they

19 were used during more intense conflicts or during attacks on the positions

20 of the Republika Srpska Army, as support for the depth for the units that

21 were trying to break through the lines of defence.

22 Q. You are saying that when there were movements, troop movements,

23 infantry troop movements in the framework of attack, the BH strategy

24 consisted also of having support from the inside from the sniping

25 positions, is this how I should understand your testimony?

Page 16559

1 A. I maintain that any clear position in clear position, that is,

2 visible streets or any open space at Grbavica was covered by sniper fire,

3 that is, the possibility of movement during attack. I am not talking

4 about throughout the war, but at the time when there was an attack and the

5 way when there were more intense or direct attacks or clashes on the lines

6 of the defence, it was impossible to have any kind of supply of

7 assistance, of food, throughout the territory of Grbavica because all

8 Grbavica was covered by sniper fire which, as I said, this fire was opened

9 from tall buildings.

10 Q. Witness, when you say this, you are talking about military parts

11 of Grbavica, if there were any, or civilian Grbavica, or what are you

12 talking about specifically?

13 A. Yes, certainly. Most intense fire was directed at the lines of

14 defence, but the sniper fire as support to the units of the BH Army was

15 open across the territory of Grbavica.

16 Q. Do you know if the citizens of Grbavica had to protect themselves

17 against this fire?

18 A. The exact data on civilian victims in Grbavica were never

19 disclosed, were never made public. And --

20 Q. I will interrupt you here. I will interrupt you here. Do you

21 know if civilians in Grbavica had to protect themselves against such fire?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How did they do this?

24 A. Mostly by using screens that were set up in the street or in the

25 streets, passages, and intersections, and these screens protected them

Page 16560

1 from view facing the side of Sarajevo held by the Muslim forces.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, earlier when I interrupted you, you were

3 speaking about your experience in relation to the victims or the wounded.

4 What can you tell us about this?

5 A. A certain period of time after the war, I worked at the

6 municipality of the Serbian New Sarajevo and the service that kept a

7 record throughout the war, I found data, a piece of data that over

8 1.000 -- there were over 1.000 civilian victims in that part of Grbavica.

9 MR. IERACE: I object to that, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: It seems that Mr. Piletta-Zanin anticipated that

12 answer. It is so nebulous in the foundation for that evidence as in my

13 respectful submission to be of no assistance to the Trial Chamber. "A

14 piece of data" --

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. We

16 don't have the interpretation.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I will just -- I take it that it now is

18 functioning again.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. Or had you said what you intended to

20 say? You were able to listen to the objection, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Yes. I

22 heard it with one ear, and I am going to reread it to make sure.

23 Surprisingly, I didn't -- I was not anticipating this answer, but what I

24 take note of is the following thing: Is that this witness always gave

25 measured answers, and specific answers, and he said he worked after the

Page 16561

1 war, but he did know about these facts that are in relation to the war.

2 It doesn't matter about the period, because we are speaking about a global

3 general number, so the fact that this witness --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes --

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- Would you please concentrate on the core of the

7 objection, that is that these kind of facts should not be introduced just

8 by, I would say, if I do understand you well, Mr. Ierace, by

9 uncontrollable data given through testimony rather than by other sources

10 that could be controlled and are fit to -- for the other party to check.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I

13 remember that there was testimony of an expert witness who was

14 Mrs. Tabeau, and she was officially employed by the Prosecution who had

15 also given data. She was also based on a kind of office, same kind of

16 office, except that it is based on the other side of the line to the one

17 which is opposite this witness. So is there a different kind of standard?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it the intention of the Defence

19 to introduce what is available of those records, and then have either

20 experts of witnesses to testify about it? Because that's how I understand

21 the objection of Mr. Ierace, that if there is material available, that

22 this material should be produced rather than a testimony of a witness

23 without producing either expert reports on it or the underlying data.

24 That's I think the issue we are talking about.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I add something to my objection.

Page 16562

1 I don't believe this is in the description of the witness's knowledge.

2 Secondly, it seems from the witness's earlier reference to it on line 19

3 of page 78 that we are to be told that it is not available publicly. The

4 distinction between this evidence of that of Ms. Tabeau, is that the

5 information on which she based her conclusion was available to the

6 Defence. It seems this is not. To suggest there were a thousand civilian

7 victims on the Serb side, the Bosnian Serb side in Grbavica without giving

8 any opportunity to the Prosecution to check that data, is in my respectful

9 submission, not only inappropriate, but such as to render it inadmissible.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I thought that I summarised your objection

11 approximately in this sense. Now it certainly is clear,

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could you please respond to the core of the objection

13 which is about the possibility for the other party to check the data

14 underlying the testimony of the witness.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just said,

16 but I wasn't understood correctly, is that I was surprised by this

17 response. I did not anticipate this because I cannot tell you that this

18 today I am going to come up from my left or my right pocket some factual

19 proof. The only thing that I can do to enrich the Prosecution in their

20 knowledge of facts is to tell them about the number of Serb victims during

21 this campaign in the widest possible sense, in the city of Sarajevo, and I

22 am speaking about the widest possible sense, a campaign. I am not talking

23 about the legal definition of the term. Thank you very much. May I

24 proceed, please?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed, but you have not yet given an

Page 16563

1 answer to my question, whether the Defence intends not to tell the

2 Prosecution what in the view of the Defence are the number of Serb

3 victims, but whether they will produce any data which at least are fit to

4 be investigated and to be checked on the validity of these figures. And

5 the Prosecution has pointed out that is the difference between the

6 approach followed by the Prosecution and now followed by the Defence. So

7 what could we expect before we continue?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The answer is, yes,

9 Mr. President. The answer is yes. May I proceed?

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this data or completely different

11 data, that's the issue.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the answer is

13 yes for the data about victims in general. So these pieces of data that I

14 have just found out about and Mr. Ierace understood this, I am speaking

15 about them lato sensu, not stricto sensu.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you'll understand that the -- that

17 reliable data, controllable data, are always to be preferred. And if you

18 intend to do so, perhaps try to find a balance between what you seek from

19 a witness who seems not to have available at this moment this data, and

20 what you would try to produce at later stage.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if it is the same data, and

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin tells us it is, then why do we hear it from this

23 witness, surely, given that we will be receiving it, we can wait until

24 then and the evidence can be given then in a proper form.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin tells us that he is

Page 16564

1 surprised that this data does exist. But perhaps first a few questions

2 for you. You said that there were records about the number of victims.

3 Do you know where they are, these records?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Where are they?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the municipality of Srpska Novo

7 Sarajevo in an institution, in the institution of the municipality.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You work with this data personally?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I had them, had access to them.

10 JUDGE ORIE: What did you do with them? I mean, what -- did you

11 analyse them or did you consult them or what did you do with this data?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the first place when I discovered

13 this data that are recorded in books, this was just a confirmation of what

14 I had already known as to what was happening during the war in Grbavica.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question was what you did with it.

16 Whether it confirms your impression that's a different matter. Yes. Did

17 you analyse it? Did you consult it and for what reason and what was the

18 result of this activity?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no real analysis. There

20 was just the factual state of affairs. So the books that I looked into,

21 we can find those figures or rather the first and last names of people,

22 and in most cases, also the date of their killing. And not only that, but

23 that is not my only source of information. A source of information --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I am -- whether you have other sources of

25 information, that's perhaps for the next question. But I would first like

Page 16565

1 to concentrate very much on these records. You say that these records

2 contain names and sometimes the date when people were killed. Are these

3 records just about people killed or also of victims being injured?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the injured. I just wanted to

5 add by way of explanation, these data, if I may.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it is on this data, please do so.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear evidence of the number of

8 civilian victims at Grbavica are the tombs and the inscriptions on them

9 with the names and date of death.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I have got to stop you. I am asking you about the

11 records, whether there is other evidence on the number of victims, that's

12 a different matter, and perhaps the parties may ask you questions about

13 that. But I am specifically interested at this moment in these records.

14 Did I understand you well that these records indicate that some thousand

15 people have died? Is that contained in these records?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Died and that means something else,

17 but killed, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Killed. Please correct me if I am wrong. So that

19 they were killed. Who did create these records? Are they medical

20 records? Are they administrative records? Are they -- what kind of

21 records are they?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, this is done by a

23 service attached to the municipality, and this service functioned

24 throughout the war and kept those records.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So it is an administrative recording of those killed.

Page 16566

1 Does it make any distinction between whether the victims were civilians or

2 were military people, as far as you can know?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Can you tell us that these records are still -- if

5 you looked at it, at these records, for what purpose, apart from perhaps

6 that you would like to know, but was there any professional involvement in

7 looking at it? Did you have to summarise them or did you have to extract

8 them or did you have to copy the content of it for other purposes? Could

9 you tell us what actually brought you to consult, at least, to look into

10 these records? What caused you to do so?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of my duties in the municipality

12 was to cooperate with the international community. And one of the

13 questions that were put in the course of that cooperation had to do with

14 things that happened during the war. And this data was necessary in a

15 certain period of time in context with a particular international

16 institution, and that is how I found that figure, which have been

17 verified, and which has been recorded, and I presented it during these

18 discussions or rather contacts with the international community.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Which entity of the international community are you

20 referring to? So I do understand that this data has been provided to an

21 international organisation; is that correct?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is provided to any organisation

23 from the international community if it makes such a request. And the

24 organisations that asked me were the military forces of the international

25 community, which is now called SFOR, in those days it was UNPROFOR.

Page 16567

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so this data have been provided. Was that after

2 the war or during the war that these data were provided to the military

3 authorities of SFOR and/or UNPROFOR?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I was referring to was after

5 the war. And as for the work of the municipality during the wartime,

6 wartime I don't know.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just confer one second.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now knowing better what the source of information of

10 the witness is and how the data, according to this witness, have been

11 distributed in the international community, the -- and also having heard

12 that the Defence will produce the data also in other forms,

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are allowed to ask questions about it. Of course,

14 here again, the probative value of the information the witness gives might

15 vary according to what other evidence will be presented in this respect

16 and how controllable that evidence will be.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

19 have only a few questions as the gentleman is not an expert.

20 Q. But since you spoke about that, sir, these civilians killed during

21 those events, does one know why, how they were killed? What had provoked

22 that death?

23 A. With respect to civilians, in most cases it was the effect of

24 sniper fire, which doesn't mean that they did not get killed as a result

25 of other types of firing towards Grbavica. I am referring to shells and

Page 16568

1 fire opened from other types of infantry weapons that were random.

2 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to refer to the photograph you

3 have on the screen. And when you look at the tower in the forefront of

4 the picture, please. Thank you. Did you hear the question?

5 A. I see the building in the middle.

6 Q. Yes. Do you see holes in that building?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us in two words what they are?

9 A. As I said, this building that we are referring to and I told you

10 that the same applied to all the tall buildings --

11 Q. No, I am just asking you what are the holes.

12 A. These holes are the results of tank fire.

13 Q. Why do you think that this type of tank fire was directed against

14 this tower, briefly, please?

15 MR. IERACE: I object, speculation. "Why do you think tank fire

16 was directed against this building?"

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will withdraw the words

18 "why do you think."

19 Q. Let me say: Do you know for what precise reason we see evidence

20 of tank impact on these buildings and if yes, tell us the reason.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what was the reason?

23 A. It was anti-sniper fire.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

Page 16569

1 usher, I should now like us to place on the ELMO our document D1811

2 referring to incidents 20, 15, 10, 7, et cetera. And a colour copy should

3 be placed on the ELMO, please.

4 Q. Do you recognise the map on the ELMO, please; yes or no?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, the lines that you see, both the light green

7 one going northwards, as well as the darker green line going southward

8 which could represent the positions of the armies, are those lines

9 correct; yes or no?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Witness, to the extent to which those lines are not quite correct,

12 would you be able to draw on this map with precision the real positions of

13 those lines; yes or no?

14 A. The Serbian lines fully, yes; as for the Muslim lines, partially.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Will you please take a black pen and in a

16 full line redraw the Serb lines as you remember them.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Witness, you have drawn this line. Could you please focus on the

19 two red spots that you see in the centre of the screen and take the

20 pointer, please, and place it slightly to the right, slightly to the

21 right.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. No. No. The circle in the middle, please.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. Now slightly to the right. Very lightly to the right.

Page 16570

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Witness, to the best of your recollection and starting from that

3 point, the line that you continued from there, is it quite correct or

4 wasn't there a different line starting from the section going to the left?

5 A. Roughly, as far as I can recollect, this is the continuation of

6 the line along the road to the left.

7 Q. Very well. Were you frequently on that line?

8 A. That is very close to where I lived, yes.

9 Q. Could you now please draw in a dotted line the part of the enemy

10 line that you are familiar with.

11 A. I am only sure of this part, that it went like this.

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, as these maps are not useful in this way for

13 measuring distance, what is the distance between the line that you have

14 just done, that is the dotted line of the enemy positions and point 15

15 marked with the number "15" on the map, what is the distance?

16 A. An indicator that we can use is the stadium that I am pointing to,

17 number 217, which is some 60 metres wide. So that could be the distance.

18 Q. When you say that the stadium was 60 metres, was it 60 metres

19 according to what you remember or is it based on what you think, viewing

20 the map?

21 A. No. It is based on what I know regarding the width of a football

22 pitch.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, was there a football pitch in that

25 stadium?

Page 16571

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

4 Q. Witness, do you see a point number "10" on the map, and if you do

5 could you point it out with the pointer.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 Q. Witness, my question is the following: Bearing in mind the

9 geographic configuration of the land, could one see from the Serbian lines

10 and taking into consideration the buildings in this area, could one see

11 the point with the number "10"; yes or no?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Could you explain why that point number 10 was not visible?

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just so that I fully understand the

15 context of the evidence, I take it that the question is intended to refer

16 to any part of the Serbian line or any --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what the question was about. Yes.

18 Mr. DP16, you were answering a question on the visibility of point 10 from

19 whatever position at the Serbian line, that's how -- that's the question

20 you have answered.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the front line the answer is,

22 no.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From whatever point on the front line. Please

24 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Things appear to

Page 16572

1 be quite clear. We have another 10 minutes. And in view of the various,

2 but useful interruptions, I think we could be granted a little more time.

3 I don't think I will be abusing too much the people working in and around

4 this courtroom.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You said you would need another 10 minutes, is that

6 how I understood you? You indicated two and a half hours for this

7 witness, according to my bookkeeping --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes --

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- Until now we have used approximately two hours and

10 25 minutes. So 10 minutes will be granted for tomorrow.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Perfect.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So we will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same

13 courtroom. May I instruct you not to speak with anyone about the

14 testimony you have given or you are about to give tomorrow. And we hope

15 to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before you adjourn, I have the

17 CDs of C2, if I could hand those to the Registrar. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I have to adjourn again, because words

19 spoken after we adjourned we are, in one way or another, re-opening, so we

20 now adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

23 the 29th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

24

25