Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16872

 1                          Friday, 6th December 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6    you please call the case.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

 8    Stanislav Galic.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, my LiveNote is not functioning.

10    But I now see a difference on my screen.  I will just try to fix it.

11    There is still no text on my LiveNote.  Could someone assist me in fixing

12    my LiveNote on my laptop.

13            If there are no other issues to be addressed at this very moment,

14    I would ask Madam Usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.

15                          [The witness entered court]

16                          WITNESS: WITNESS DP17 [Resumed]

17                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. DP17.  May I remind you that you

19    are still bound by the solemn declaration --

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  -- That you have given at the beginning of your

22    testimony.  Having been examined by the parties, the Judges would have

23    some questions for you as well.

24                          Questioned by the Court:

25            JUDGE ORIE:  First is Judge Nieto-Navia.

Page 16873

 1            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Thank you, Mr. President.  You mentioned

 2    during your testimony some places in which according to your information

 3    the BH Army produced weapons and ammunition.  Do you recall that?

 4       A.   Yes, I do.

 5            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Might the witness be provided with map 1814.

 6            Do you see any of those places in that map?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Would you please take a red pen, a red one,

 9    put a cross and a "W" in each of those places, "W1," "W2" et cetera and

10    please give us the address or the street or the just for the -- for having

11    that in the transcript.  Which place is that, please?

12       A.   This is the wire factory at Alipasin bridge, that would be the

13    location.  And before the war that was also the address of this factory.

14    And in this part of the map, you can't see the technical school, it

15    doesn't say Marijn Dvor, that is the central part of Sarajevo.  It is the

16    mechanical and technical school but I can't mark it because part of the

17    map is missing.  It is to the right of this map, the facility I am talking

18    about.

19            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  [Previous interpretation continues]... To an

20    arrow showing the place, please.

21       A.   Similarly, the railway and industrial school is missing in

22    Zivka Josila Street, that is where it was located and that would be here

23    more or less if you can see it on the screen.  It would be where my finger

24    is, if we had the second start of the map.  If you have the eastern part

25    of Sarajevo, if you have a map of the eastern part of Sarajevo, it would

Page 16874

 1    be easier for me to be precise when answering.

 2            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Are there other places on this map?

 3       A.   The places that I had information about, no, they are not on this

 4    map.  But they are in the eastern part of Sarajevo.

 5            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Thank you.  You mentioned if I am not wrong,

 6    four places in which the UNPROFOR or the UN military observers had posts.

 7    Do you recall that?

 8       A.   I apologise.  Can we finish with this matter?  I can repeat the

 9    sites where weapons were produced.  I can repeat that, although I can't

10    mark it on the map because part of the map is missing.

11            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  It is not necessary.

12       A.   It is not necessary, all right, then.

13            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Another issue, the issue of UNPROFOR and the

14    military observers posts.  Do the same exercise, please, putting instead

15    of the "W" a "UN" mark, "UN1," "UN2" et cetera.

16       A.   Last time I forgot Energoinvest.  There's something there too, so

17    I will mark this too.

18            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  I am sorry, Energoinvest was a weapon factory,

19    was a UN post?  What was that?  I cannot see.

20       A.   No.  It was an UN checkpoint, and on our part it was an

21    observation point.

22            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Thank you.  So "UN2."

23       A.   Yes.

24            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Is that "UN3"?

25       A.   Yes.  These were all postwar names.  These are all postwar names.

Page 16875

 1    These streets are not that familiar to me now.  Very few names retained

 2    the prewar names that they had.  That is why I am taking some time to

 3    locate the UN checkpoints.

 4            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I am unable to see where the witness

 5    wrote.  Perhaps the ELMO could be adjusted.

 6            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  The last one?

 7            MR. IERACE:  Yes.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please point again at where you last have

 9    written something on the map.

10       A.   That's the place I mentioned.  And the Prosecution asked me

11    whether this could be seen from the command, if you remember.  That's in

12    the Velika Aleja that goes towards Bosna, and in that part where the arrow

13    is, our command was in front.  And in front of that command in the

14    direction of the lines there was the fourth checkpoint that I have marked.

15    I don't know if I should mention that there was an UNPROFOR battalion

16    which was located at the airport.  And I don't know whether I should mark

17    that.

18            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  No, no.  I think that it is not necessary to

19    do that.  Thank you very much.  No further questions, Mr. President.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you as

21    well.

22            JUDGE EL MAHDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23            [Interpretation] I would like to make sure that I have understood

24    you correctly.  When you drew the confrontation line on this map in the

25    Nedzarici area, the line shows that Nedzarici was not entirely under the

Page 16876

 1    control of the Serbian forces.  Isn't that correct?

 2       A.   Well, in general, generally speaking, most of that area, apart

 3    from a few houses, in Nedzarici as can be seen on the map, most of the

 4    area was under the control of the Serbian forces.  But the urban part of

 5    the Nedzarici area -- perhaps what is written here is confusing you.  For

 6    us Nedzarici is this area that is marked here.

 7            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly, that's where it

 8    says Nedzarici.  You marked the line there that -- it goes through the

 9    written word.

10       A.   Yes.  But it would be more realistic if this word Nedzarici was

11    written -- well, you can see where I am pointing to now.  You can see it

12    on the map.  I don't know why it is being written here.  It is a recent

13    map.

14            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Allow me.  I just want to make

15    sure that I have understood you correctly.  Nedzarici wasn't entirely

16    under your control.  There was a part of Nedzarici that was under the

17    control of the enemy side.

18       A.   Well, a very small area, an almost negligible area, because I

19    would like to repeat that this map was made after the war.  I don't know

20    why the word Nedzarici is so far to the right.  This is in fact Nedzarici,

21    this part that I am pointing to now.

22            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Sir, you can confirm that the

23    lines that you drew are the exact lines that correspond to the actual

24    situation?

25       A.   In my opinion, yes.

Page 16877

 1            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My second question

 2    concerns --

 3       A.   I apologise.  Could I just clarify one other detail?  You can see

 4    these buildings that are marked here, that's where Dobrinja V begins.

 5    Dobrinja V already begins in this part.  So --

 6            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Allow me to interrupt you.  What

 7    I want to make sure of is that you drew the line in the area where you

 8    thought the confrontation line was; is that correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's move on to

11    another subject, then, please.  You stated that with regard to taking the

12    Otes area, you explained this, I will quote you in English, you said [In

13    English] "In one of the defence attacks, this part was liberated."

14            [Interpretation] And you explained that this defensive attack took

15    place in December 1992.  Do you remember that?

16       A.   Yes.

17            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  My question then is:

18    Did you state that there were buildings that had several floors which were

19    used, as far as you know, by snipers who fired on your positions or fired

20    at your population, and as a result you decided to organise what you

21    called a defensive attack.  My question consists of two parts:  First of

22    all, I'd like to know whether this area, the Otes area which was taken by

23    your forces during the defensive attack was an inhabited area?

24       A.   Well, according to our information, there were very few civilians

25    there, if that's what you are asking me about.

Page 16878

 1            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, because you said -- just a

 2    minute, please.  Listen to my question and then answer it, please.  You

 3    said that there were buildings that were used among others by snipers in

 4    order to fire at your population or at your posts, and you decided to

 5    launch a defensive attack, to plan a defensive attack, that's the term

 6    that you used.  I simply want to know whether this area that you call

 7    Otes, I'd like to know whether there were any inhabitants there, was this

 8    an area where people lived or were there just snipers there?  Were the

 9    buildings empty, apart from a few sniper nests?  Were there any civilians

10    who lived in this area; yes or no?

11       A.   Well, we didn't just have a few sniper nests there --

12            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes or no.

13       A.   Well, I apologise, Judge, but there were not just a few sniper

14    nests.  There was the line, the entire line there.

15            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, in

16    this -- just a minute, please.  In the area that you call Otes, there were

17    no civilians who lived in that area?

18       A.   That's not what I said.  I didn't say that not at any time --

19            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] In December 1992, please, when

20    you launched your defensive attack, were there any civilians living in

21    that area; yes or no?

22       A.   In the buildings against which we launched defensive attack, there

23    were no civilians there.  There was just the line and quite a lot of

24    Muslim troops, not just a few snipers.

25            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So there were no civilians in

Page 16879

 1    that area?

 2       A.   In the area where the line was, that's the area that I am talking

 3    about and the buildings that were part of the line.

 4            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] The zone that against which you

 5    launched a defensive attack?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] That means -- you mean to say

 8    there was civilians there?

 9       A.   There weren't any civilians in the part against which we launched

10    an attack.  There were just Muslim forces there.

11            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] The area called Otes that you

12    aimed at --

13       A.   The Otes area is a far wider area, greater area than this one.

14            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, the zone that you mentioned,

15    you pointed it out on the map, and you said that is this part was

16    liberated -- just a minute, please.  How can you answer without hearing my

17    question?

18            Wait for the question and then answer and I will listen to you

19    attentively then.

20            You said this area that you liberated, you were talking about an

21    area, you were talking about a zone, but not just a few buildings.  And I

22    simply want to know whether there were any civilians in that zone, in that

23    area; yes or no?

24       A.   Well, yet again I am not just talking about a few buildings.  I

25    don't know whether the interpreters are interpreting this correctly --

Page 16880

 1            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will move on to

 2    another subject.

 3            Were you familiar with the plan for the defensive attack, how did

 4    you carry out that attack?

 5       A.   I personally at the time was -- did not have such duties.  My

 6    duties didn't involve me participating in that defensive attack at the

 7    time.  But I was indirectly included in it, but I wasn't personally

 8    involved in it, so I can't really say yes.

 9            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Do you at least know

10    which weapons were used?

11       A.   Yes.

12            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Which weapons were

13    used?

14       A.   Well, mostly infantry weapons, as well as field guns, mortars,

15    such weapons on the whole.

16            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if I have understood you

17    correctly, mortars, that was to prepare the terrain in a certain sense.

18    There were field guns, there were mortars and then an infantry attack, in

19    accordance with the traditional rules?

20       A.   Well, you could say so.

21            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So the mortar attack

22    and the field guns used, they were used against buildings, the buildings,

23    in which the enemy side had its troops?

24       A.   It was directed at the enemy line from which they fired on us.  We

25    directed our attack against that line.  Could you please try to understand

Page 16881

 1    that the front was a fairly -- a fairly wide area.  It doesn't just

 2    consist of the few buildings that you have just mentioned.  Because the

 3    line was several kilometres long, buildings can't cover that area.

 4            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I have understood you

 5    correctly, this is an interesting point, because initially you said that

 6    you had liberated a zone.  A zone is not just a line.  It is an area, it

 7    has a depth.

 8       A.   Yes, that's right.

 9            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Sir, let's move on to

10    another subject, please.  Answering a question that was asked of you, you

11    answered, and I am going to quote you in English [In English] "You could

12    hear the shell coming from the direction of Igman."

13            [Interpretation] And you spoke of field gun firing.  Now, my

14    question is in relation to the sound.  Were you able to determine the

15    direction of fire based on the sound, and particularly, if these were

16    mortars, you, who had the experience of a confrontation line, were you

17    more or less able to hear the shell and to determine, more or less, the

18    origin of fire?  Because you said [In English] "The shell coming from the

19    direction of Igman."

20            [Interpretation] That is to say, if I understood you correctly,

21    you were trying to say that according to the sound you were able to

22    determine the origin, the source of fire.

23       A.   Yes.  But primarily based on the firing position, and I even

24    commented on this, I said --

25            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.  But I am talking

Page 16882

 1    about the possibility view.  You have lived in this period of war, and you

 2    are able to, on the basis of a sound of a shell, to determine the source,

 3    the source of the fire?

 4       A.   Again, I am repeating, that's not what I said.  I was just

 5    speaking about the position of the firing.  But the shell, when it is

 6    falling in the vicinity, and I think I said this, if the shell is going,

 7    flying over you 20 to 50 metres, then you hear it.  But I commented what I

 8    said was that the soldiers have said that once you hear a shell, it's too

 9    late then, that's precisely what I said.

10            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you yourself, you personally,

11    you cannot determine the source of firing on the basis of sound?

12       A.   On the basis of the sound of the shell that's flying, you cannot

13    hear it unless it is going, flying over you.  But the firing position you

14    were talking about, the locations, you were asking me a question, how was

15    it possible to locate where the fire is coming from?

16            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I am not talking

17    about the sites, the firing sites.  I am talking about a fly-over of a

18    shell.

19       A.   That's very hard to answer that question.  It's very hard.  For

20    instance, if you -- if you -- if a Maljutka is fired, then you hear this

21    kind of hiss, and then if you hear that, you know that you have been fired

22    on with a Maljutka.  But with other projectiles, all kinds of field guns

23    and calibres that were fired on us, it was impossible to determine, I was

24    not able to determine which calibre was being fired on us.  That's what I

25    wanted to say.

Page 16883

 1            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You also said in

 2    relation to the stabilisers of a mortar shell falling on asphalt surface,

 3    you said that it was impossible that the stabiliser would be embedded, and

 4    that the only possibility was if something that could occur, that if the

 5    safety valve wasn't activated, wasn't taken out, taken off; is that

 6    correct?

 7       A.   Yes.  These are my experiences.

 8            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  But, yes, yourself,

 9    did you observe -- did you observe a stabiliser embedded in the asphalt?

10    Because "the security valve hadn't been activated"?  Were you personally

11    able to observe such an occurrence embedded in the asphalt?

12       A.   If I understand you correctly you asked me whether an unexploded

13    shell, if I had seen such an unexploded shell embedded in the asphalt; is

14    that what you are asking me?  Is that the question?

15            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, have you ever seen an

16    unexploded shell which was embedded in the asphalt, however?

17       A.   Yes.

18            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you yourself, you are certain

19    that the security of the safety valve hadn't been activated?

20       A.   That's impossible -- you cannot establish this.  You cannot

21    determine this.  Because there is a risk -- let me just clarify.  There is

22    a risk.  For instance, if you mechanically going to take the shell out

23    because you don't know why the shell hadn't exploded, perhaps you may try

24    and go for it, reach it, get it out and then it might explode.  Let me

25    just explain, this shell has to be destroyed by explosive.

Page 16884

 1            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well, sir, but what you are

 2    saying, you yourself have seen shells embedded in the asphalt?

 3       A.   Yes.  I can tell you that, if you know Sarajevo, near Kula

 4    restaurant until a year ago, there was this kind of shell just next to the

 5    restaurant.  There is a shell standing there and nobody dares to do

 6    anything about it.  You have to destroy it with an explosive but if you do

 7    that, the whole restaurant would blow up, so there is this shell here.

 8    That's an example.

 9            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I am asking

10    Mr. President to be patient, if you allow me another five minutes.  You

11    also spoke of a problem, and I am going to quote you so that I

12    don't -- [In English] "And then as it is often the case, there would be

13    unruly behaviour."

14            [Interpretation] Was this phenomenon, this occurrence you are

15    speaking -- I am quoting you in the context that you spoke about this

16    issue -- you were speaking about your soldiers, the soldiers who were

17    members of your brigade.  And you said that that it happened, that some

18    soldiers would drink alcohol and then their behaviour would be unbecoming

19    to soldiers.  So was this a phenomenon that was frequent?  Do you know of

20    several occurrences like this?  Can you give us some examples, when you

21    say "their behaviour," how did they act?  What kind of behavior was that

22    that they were exhibiting?

23       A.   Well, I didn't say quite like that, what you've quoted,

24    Your Honour, the way you've taken it out of the context.  I have spoken

25    hypothetically --

Page 16885

 1            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am going to interrupt you

 2    because I am going to quote you and I can give you the page.  This is what

 3    you said [In English] "And then as it is often the case there would be

 4    unruly behaviour."

 5            [Interpretation] And that is perhaps a translation, but I am

 6    saying to you what is in the English transcript.  So if you say that is

 7    not what I said, then I am all ears, listening to what you have to say.

 8       A.   Thank you for your understanding.  But that's not what I said.

 9    Then it is a very bad translation.  I was speaking hypothetically when the

10    Prosecutor was asking me what were the tasks, that was the context, what

11    were the tasks, the duties of the Military Police.  And personally my

12    duties as security officer, so I said among other things, one of the tasks

13    was to prevent such occurrences, possible -- probable occurrences.  So,

14    perhaps, if there is smuggling of alcohol, if there is this kind of

15    trafficking in alcohol, so because if this allowed to sell alcohol, for

16    alcohol to be consumed, then such situations, that was the context that I

17    said this in.

18            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I wasn't speaking

19    about the trafficking.  I am speaking only about alcohol.  Very well.  So

20    I am coming to the end of my questions.  Perhaps I have one or two more

21    questions.

22            You spoke -- you said that one day you were called to go to the

23    observation post of the United Nations and if you wish, I'll quote you.

24    You said [In English] "They wanted me to go to their observation post."

25            [Interpretation] Do you recall the reason why or the occasion?

Page 16886

 1       A.   I recall very well.  The gentlemen who were at this observation

 2    post said that it would be with great difficulty that they would remain

 3    there at this post because the Muslims were constantly firing in spite of

 4    the warning to the Muslim command, they were firing at the observation

 5    post.  And I went and I saw for myself there were 50 shots, more than 50

 6    shots.  They could have only come from the Muslim side.  They came

 7    directly to the post, on to the post where the UN observers were.  So

 8    these persons wanted to tell us, let us know why they were unable to

 9    remain at this post.  And this part in Nedzarici towards Vojnicko Polje.

10            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Did they change, did they

11    actually change the post, the location?

12       A.   Yes.

13            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Where did they go to?  Did they

14    go to a little further afield or where did they go to?

15       A.   I don't know exactly.  And I tell you why, because I was involved

16    in other tasks.  But this post, on this post, I didn't see them there any

17    more.  That was a protected post by bullet-proof glass, but if you can say

18    that there were these traces, so to speak, scars, from -- from weapons

19    being fired on the glass.

20            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Because what you have said

21    on the map, you pointed exactly where they were posted, but I don't think

22    that you then mentioned that they had changed the location.  Very well.

23    Let's go on to my last question.

24            You said --

25       A.   You didn't ask me

Page 16887

 1            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Just as well that I

 2    did ask you in the end.  The very last question, sir, is in relation to

 3    something you said.  You said that you -- that your brigade, that you

 4    didn't -- your brigade didn't have sniper rifles.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you said also [In English]

 7    "Weapons that could fire at a long distance."

 8            [Interpretation] So, as far as you know, the range of rifles used

 9    in your brigade went up to what distance?

10       A.   Well, the rifles that we had at our disposal, theoretically

11    speaking, and our instructions were that there is no point in using these

12    for distances over 200 metres.  Because these rifles were otherwise used

13    for up to 400 metres, but these were -- these were not very precise

14    rifles.  And when we -- have to explain -- when we checked their ranges,

15    when we tested them on the testing ground, very few people managed to hit

16    a target at 100 metres with that rifle.  So this is not a bad Serbian

17    soldier shooting, but it's because the rifles were old and they were not

18    good.

19            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But the range of the rifle of the

20    weapon, what is the range of that rifle?

21       A.   Maximum range of this rifle, as far as I know, about 600 metres.

22    But I am not completely sure.  This is as far as I recall.

23            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You are speaking about all the

24    rifles?

25       A.   No, no.  I am speaking about the type of the rifle that was the

Page 16888

 1    most common rifle among our soldiers, that was AK-47 Kalashnikov rifle.

 2            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No.  I am speaking about rifles

 3    in general, rifles used by your brigade.  Is that the only type of rifle

 4    that you had or were there any others that you had that had a longer

 5    range?

 6       A.   Well, there were also automatic rifles, M-56, and they had a

 7    shorter range in relation to the previous rifle.  And then there was also

 8    the Browning gun that we spoke of.  We had it and the Muslims had it too.

 9            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, let's just focus on the

10    rifles, please and different types of rifles.  You said and you confirmed

11    that your troops had only rifles with maximum range up to 600 metres -- up

12    to 400 metres, is that what your testimony is?

13       A.   No, this is when optimum conditions, when it is the best kind of

14    rifle, when the barrel hasn't been damaged.  Theoretically speaking, these

15    rifles can shoot at a distance of up to 400 metres.  You can also shoot at

16    500, and a kilometre, but they are not effective, they are not hitting the

17    target.

18            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Thank you.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. DP17, I have got a few questions for you as well.

20    Would you please not interrupt me when I put a question to you, and would

21    you please listen carefully to the question so that you can answer it.

22            You talked about an attack on Otes.  You told us that mortars were

23    used in this attack.  From where were these mortars firing when they

24    supported the attack on Otes?

25       A.   Well, to be perfectly honest, personally I didn't lead this

Page 16889

 1    operation.  I am just saying this very sincerely, so I don't know exactly

 2    where from that they attacked.  I wasn't even involved in this defensive

 3    attack as someone who established anything whatsoever.  I carried out

 4    only -- what I mean is that if I knew it I wouldn't have a problem to

 5    say --

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  So your answer is I don't know from where --

 7       A.   That's correct.  I don't know exactly.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  That's the answer to my question.  How do you know

 9    that mortars were supporting this attack on Otes?  Were you told that they

10    were used?

11       A.   Yes, and I was able to follow --

12            JUDGE ORIE:  My question was whether you were told.  By whom?

13       A.   Well, you see I answered yes, I said I knew.  I could have just

14    followed that over the radio, the radio link that we had.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  So you know it from what you heard on the radio?

16       A.   Yes.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  My next question is:  Were there any mortar crews in

18    the School of Theology or Faculty of Theology?

19       A.   There weren't.  And practically that was impossible.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I am not talking about mortars; I am talking

21    about mortar crews.  Your answer is still the same?

22       A.   Yes.  I don't know that at the Faculty of Theology there were

23    such.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know or do you know that there were not?

25       A.   I think I would have known had they been there.  As far as I know,

Page 16890

 1    there weren't any there.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You indicated -- and please could the witness

 3    be shown map 1814, D1814.

 4            You indicated where mortars were located.  Could you please point

 5    at it again in Nedzarici.

 6       A.   [Indicates]

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us where the mortar crew was located

 8    that was responsible for those mortars?  No, I am talking about the crew,

 9    yes.

10       A.   Well, logically, yes, would be the closest to the area where the

11    mortars were.  This would be these houses in this part here.  So this is

12    what I am pointing to now.  You can see it.  That's where they were.

13    That's where the crews were, the mortar crews.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know or do you just assume that they were

15    there?

16       A.   I know that.  I said that I saw that once, the mortars, and the

17    fact is that they were able to move in case the enemy would locate them

18    well and fire at them, it would be the most normal thing for them to move.

19    But when I saw them, I know then that they were in a house next to where

20    they were.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, let's now move to a mortar position you

22    indicated at the opposite side of the line in Dobrinja.  I think you

23    indicated this by "15."  Would you please point at it and could the map

24    perhaps be moved a little bit, Madam Usher.  Yes.  Thank you.  Could you

25    please point again at where you located a mortar position in Dobrinja at

Page 16891

 1    the other side of the line.

 2       A.   [Indicates]

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's where you have written "15."

 4            What's the basis of your knowledge that a mortar was there?

 5       A.   People who crossed over that went -- came to our side running

 6    across minefields, they gave us this information.  That doesn't mean they

 7    were always there, but they told us, according to the information that we

 8    had at our disposal, they moved them as well in the same way.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  So you say it was a mobile mortar, and your knowledge

10    is --

11       A.   Mortars can be used.  I am sorry.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you not to interrupt me when I put a question

13    to you.

14            So you are telling us that it was a mobile mortar and the basis of

15    your knowledge is what you've been told by one person or would it be more

16    persons that came to your side of the line?

17       A.   More persons.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know whether we have to turn into

19    private session, but you gave a name during your testimony of one person.

20    Could you -- do you remember the name of other persons who confirmed that

21    a mortar was there.  If you remember the name we could turn into private

22    session.

23       A.   At this moment, I can remember another name, apart from those that

24    I have already given.  Names and surnames.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  We then turn for a moment in private session.

Page 16892

 1                          [Private session]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.  Were there any M-48 rifles

22    in your units?

23       A.   I don't recall.  If there were any initially, there were only very

24    few because all soldiers had more confidence in these rifles that had more

25    bullets.

Page 16893

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous interpretation continues]... Whether you

 2    were and you answered --

 3       A.   I didn't see them.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was there any difference in the presence of

 5    snipers in your battalion compared to other battalions?

 6       A.   We didn't have any snipers.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  My question was whether there was any difference

 8    between your battalion and other battalions or would you say that it was

 9    the same in all battalions, that there would be no snipers in other

10    battalions either?

11       A.   I am speaking about battalions in my brigade, so I want to make

12    that clear.  As far as I know, there weren't any.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The -- do you know what unit was present at the

14    Jewish cemetery?  Am I right in understanding that the Jewish cemetery was

15    not within your zone of responsibility?

16       A.   You're right.  It wasn't in our area of responsibility.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know anything about the presence of your

18    troops near to the Jewish cemetery?

19       A.   Very little.  I know there was frequent fighting.  The radio and

20    TV reported on this.  But I know very little on this.  Specifically I

21    don't know anything because I wasn't there.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So if you don't know anything, I won't put any

23    additional questions to you.  About shells coming from Igman, you

24    testified that shells were coming from Igman and answering questions of

25    Judge El Mahdi you said that not by sound you could identify them as

Page 16894

 1    coming from Igman; is that correctly understood?

 2       A.   No, that's what I wanted to clarify.  The Judge wanted to know

 3    whether the calibre could be determined.  I asked whether it was a matter

 4    of the origin of fire, and I was told that it wasn't the origin of fire,

 5    but whether the calibre could be determined on the basis of the sound.  I

 6    explained this, I wasn't in a position to do so, and I don't think

 7    anything else could.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  If you listen carefully, I don't think the questions

 9    were about the calibre, but the source of fire of the shells --

10       A.   In that case --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please let me put the question to you.

12    When you told us about shells coming from the direction of Igman, on the

13    basis of what exactly would you be sure that they came from the Igman

14    direction?

15       A.   If it was in the evening, on the basis of the flash and the noise

16    you could hear, the explosion from the place it was fired from, and the

17    flash, that was obvious.  But observers observed the entire zone, and if

18    there were several of them -- if several of them say that they saw

19    something in such-and-such a part --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous interpretation continues]... And a noise,

21    as I understand you.  And that was --

22       A.   Yes, the explosion that you hear when the shell explodes.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Now during the day?

24       A.   In the course of day, of the day, either visually, if it could be

25    seen, but usually we would determine this on the basis of the explosion

Page 16895

 1    you could hear when a shell was fired.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now your personal knowledge when you yourself

 3    identified during this time that a shell was coming from Igman, when you

 4    did not see anything but when you heard the explosion, were you then able

 5    to identify on the basis of this explosion that it would come from -- that

 6    it was fired from Igman?

 7       A.   I apologise.  If I only heard the explosion and nothing else,

 8    that's how it was interpreted to me; is that your question?  Well, yes, my

 9    answer is, yes.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  So just on the basis of the sound of the explosion

11    where you didn't see a shell being fired, you were able to identify that

12    it came from Igman?

13       A.   Yes.  Because one had the opportunity to hear it nearby.  You

14    develop a sense of hearing, not just me, but everyone who follows this.

15    So you can tell whether something was fired from a kilometre or from two

16    kilometres.  It was possible to determine where the origin of fire was,

17    more or less, not with great precision.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  So not only the direction, but also the distance,

19    approximately?

20       A.   Well, usually, yes.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22       A.   One can be wrong.  You can't be very precise in such situations.

23    It depends on the weather, it depends on where you are.  There are quite a

24    few influences that factor this.  And Igman covers a wide area.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for your answer.  A next question

Page 16896

 1    would be:  You told us that you would hear a shell fly just prior to

 2    landing; is my understanding correct?

 3       A.   Yes.  I apologise again.  But if you are near -- yes, but there

 4    are shells that you don't hear at all.  But if we are talking about the

 5    shells when you are the target.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is that because if the distance that you would

 7    not hear a shell flying over that would land somewhere else?  Is that

 8    because of the distance between the man on the ground and the shell flying

 9    over high that you would not hear it?

10       A.   Well, yes.  The distance and in any case you usually don't hear it

11    when it is flying over.  I didn't have the opportunity of hearing a shell.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have no further questions for you.  Have the

13    parties any need to put additional questions to the witness?

14            Then, Mr. DP17, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I

15    know that you had to wait for quite a while.  I also noticed that you had

16    to come back twice.  I appreciate your patience.  I thank you for having

17    answered the questions of both parties and the Chamber, and I wish you a

18    safe trip home again.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you too, and I

20    apologise if -- well, this is the first time that I have appeared before a

21    court.  So if I made certain attempts, this was just a matter of showing

22    goodwill towards the Judges.  And it was an honour for me to testify here.

23    I don't know whether this is customary.  I would just like to say hello to

24    the General, to greet the General without any comments, without making any


Page 16897

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, you've said it already.  It is not

 2    usual, and it is usually not what we do in this court.  But from his face,

 3    I see that he received some greetings from you.  Thank you very much.

 4    Could you please, Madam Usher, escort the witness out of the courtroom.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, I hope you work continue

 6    with success and I wish all the best to the General.

 7                          [The witness withdrew]

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through

 9    the documents.

10            THE REGISTRAR:  Ms. Pilipovic, may I have some guidance as to

11    whether you intend to tender both maps D1813 and D1814?

12            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D1 -- I don't think the witness

13    finished with D1813, it is D1814.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that would be sufficient for the Defence, then I

15    take it D1813 is not tendered and D1814 is tendered.  Yes.

16            THE REGISTRAR:  D1812, under seal, pseudonym sheet; D1814, map

17    marked by witness; D1312, B/C/S report dated 13/12/1992; D1312.1, English

18    translation; D1313, B/C/S report dated 14/12/1992; D1313.1, English

19    translation; D348/4 under seal, video in B/C/S; D348/4.1, under seal,

20    English translation of D348/4; P2754 under seal, UNMO report; and P2759,

21    UNMO report.

22            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, in relation to P2754, it doesn't need

23    to be tendered under seal.

24                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25            JUDGE ORIE:  The testimony given in respect to that document was

Page 16898

 1    given in private session, but if the Prosecution who classified the

 2    document as an "R" document does not insist on admission under seal and if

 3    the Defence would agree that although the testimony was given in private

 4    session, there is no need to admit this document under seal.  We could

 5    admit it.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have these two

 7    documents P2757 and P2759 and my objection to having these documents

 8    included is that the witness wasn't able to recognise these documents and

 9    was not in a position to confirm the coordinates.  I think that you will

10    take this into consideration when admitting the documents.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace, any --

12            MR. IERACE:  Just this observation, Mr. President, that in

13    relation to the witness not identifying the document, there was no basis

14    for the witness to identify the document, but the Trial Chamber has

15    already heard evidence in relation to the document P2754 from a witness

16    who was in a central position in respect of the normal production of such

17    documents.

18            Mr. President, in relation to the map references, when read in

19    conjunction with P2759 on the face of the document one of the positions is

20    identified as the Home for the Blind.  You will note that the same map

21    reference is given in both.  In relation to the second map reference, the

22    Prosecution will seek to call evidence in reply to establish that that

23    position is in fact as was put to the witness, approximately 10 metres

24    from the intersection that was indicated to the witness.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ierace you are telling us that the testimony

Page 16899

 1    was given on 2754 by another witness.

 2            MR. IERACE:  Yes.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  On the other hand, no discussion has at that moment

 4    been taken about the admission into evidence of that document and you say

 5    if that witness recognise the document or the type of document we are

 6    talking about, we will have to consider whether when you did not tender

 7    that document, whether we could later rely on testimony in respect of a

 8    document which at that time was not tendered.

 9            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, you may recall that at that stage of

10    the Prosecution case, as a matter of course, the Prosecution often did not

11    tender large numbers of documents that were shown to the witness in order

12    to simply to avoid unnecessary paperwork.  Instead, and as was done with

13    this particular document, the witness's attention was drawn to this

14    particular passage and it was read to him, and in that sense, even if the

15    Trial Chamber did not admit into evidence the actual document in respect

16    of that witness's evidence, his evidence would stand alone without the

17    document.  And it is sufficiently in evidence for it to be joined to this

18    document now, because the relevant passage was read to him word for word,

19    and he confirmed that it was correctly read to him and that the document

20    was produced the normal way, and that he would have seen it at the time.

21    Thank you.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber will consider whether or not to

23    admit 2754, and 2759 for which the same is true, I think, whether there is

24    sufficient basis to admit it into evidence.  The other documents are

25    admitted into evidence.

Page 16900

 1                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  When we consider whether there would be a sufficient

 3    basis to tender these documents into evidence, we have a provisional

 4    translation of one of these documents in B/C/S.  I noticed that the

 5    translation given by the interpreters was not literally the same.

 6            Mr. Ierace, could -- while we are considering whether to admit

 7    this document or not, could the Prosecution perhaps check and perhaps the

 8    Defence is invited to do the same, whether this would be a translation

 9    that could serve to assist the Chamber in understanding -- no, not assist

10    the Chamber, but whether this would be a translation which is similar

11    enough to what has been read to the Defence and especially to the accused

12    to be admitted into evidence.

13            And when the accused has been informed on the basis of the

14    translation given by the translators in this courtroom, if at any stage of

15    the proceedings we have to check whether what has been read to the accused

16    is, as far as the content is concerned, similar to what the translation

17    says on paper.

18            I would like to avoid that we have an oral translation which

19    differs too much from the written translation that is admitted.  If you

20    seek to admit the -- you do not seek --

21            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I don't seek to admit into evidence,

22    that is to tender, the rough translation that was provided to the Defence.

23    It was a, as the title indicates, a translation not prepared by an

24    official interpreter, and if there is any discrepancy, then the

25    interpretation provided by the court interpreters who are properly fully

Page 16901

 1    qualified should be relied upon.  It was provided simply to assist the

 2    Defence to understand the contents of the document at short notice.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  So the translation as it has been given orally at

 4    trial is, in the view of the Prosecution, the content of that document.

 5    So we rely on that, if necessary, for the future.  Then we will consider

 6    the matter.

 7            Is at -- we are now at a point where Witness DP51 could be

 8    recalled in order to be cross-examined.  What would be wise?  To do it

 9    right away?  Let me just confer.

10                          [Trial Chamber confers]

11            JUDGE ORIE:  In order not to unnecessarily interrupt the

12    cross-examination, we will have a break now until five minutes past 4.00.

13                          --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine

16    Witness DP51?  Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

17    courtroom.

18                          [The witness entered court]

19                          WITNESS: WITNESS DP51 [Resumed]

20                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness DP51.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  We are glad to see that you came back in order to be

24    cross-examined by the Prosecution.  May I remind you, although it is

25    already quite some time ago, that at the beginning of your testimony you

Page 16902

 1    have given a solemn declaration that you would speak the truth, the whole

 2    truth and nothing but the truth, and that you are still bound by that

 3    solemn declaration while now continuing to give evidence in this court.

 4            Ms. Mahindaratne.

 5            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  May the witness be

 6    shown the document which was shown to him before the adjournment.  We have

 7    the translation, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, do you have the numbers available.

 9            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  We have translations on the document,

10    Mr. President.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I am merely going to show the document,

13    Mr. President.  It is not an exhibit.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  You are just going to show it, you are not going to

15    tender it, yes.

16                          Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]

17       Q.   Sir, you were shown this document on the previous date at the

18    point of adjournment.

19       A.   Yes, that's correct.

20       Q.   Could you please read out the title of the document, please.

21       A.   "The Serbian council of the Serbian Democratic Party.  Information

22    on the policies in Bosnia-Herzegovina, on health policies in

23    Bosnia-Herzegovina."

24       Q.   Could you please read out the name of the person who has signed

25    the document.

Page 16903

 1       A.   Professor Milutin Najdanovic, the late, he is an acquaintance of

 2    mine.

 3       Q.   What is his designation as indicated on his document?

 4       A.   When the multi-party policies were implemented in

 5    Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were five parties in power.  Three national

 6    parties, one called the reformist party, the representative was a Croat.

 7    And the fifth one --

 8       Q.   Let me interrupt you.  Could you just give out the designation as

 9    indicated on this document, due to time constraints.

10       A.   Coordinator of the commission for health of the SDS, Professor

11    Milutin Najdanovic.

12       Q.   Sir, on the previous date having examined this document, you

13    explained and if I may read out your own words, the transcript page number

14    13660, you explained, I will use your own words:  "Once the multi-party

15    came into existence in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was in 19 --

16            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel slow down while reading,

17    please.

18            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

19       Q.   "Once the multi-party system came into existence in

20    Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was in 1990, the political parties propose

21    members of their own nation to become members of certain structures that

22    were in charge of health care in Bosnia-Herzegovina."  In using the term

23    "political parties proposed members of their own nation" sir, did you

24    mean members of their own political parties; is that what you meant?

25       A.   No.  They proposed members of their own nation and there was

Page 16904

 1    the -- there weren't the reformist and Yugoslav parties.  A Muslim was in

 2    charge of the reformists, and some of the people here were in some of

 3    those parties.  I can, I'll repeat that.  When multi-party policies were

 4    introduced, the national parties proposed members of their own nation,

 5    people, not of their own party, specialists, prominent specialists who

 6    were capable of assuming certain duties concerning running the health

 7    system in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There were also members from parties that

 8    were not national parties from the reformist party and the Yugoslav party.

 9    This person was in the Yugoslav party.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name.

11            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

12       Q.   Sir, your name is in the document, isn't it?  Your name has been

13    proposed as --

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Did I hear the interpreters ask for the repetition of

15    a name or am I wrong?

16            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Your Honour, the interpreter did not hear

17    the name.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under number seven, there is the

19    name Zorica Vujisic, Dr. Zorica Vujisic.  She was a member of the Yugoslav

20    party.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

22            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

23       Q.   And your name has been nominated in place of number two, isn't

24    that the case, sir?

25       A.   That's correct.

Page 16920

 1            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Document may be returned, may the witness be

 2    shown a map marked D1758.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  The map has been admitted under seal, but it is not

 4    clear in my recollection for what reason.  But it could be...

 5            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It is possibly because the map indicates his

 6    area of his residence and his workplace, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we turn into private session and deal with

 8    the map in private session.

 9            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

11                          [Private session]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 16921













13  Pages 16921-16933 – redacted – private session













Page 16934

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 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25                          [Open session]

Page 16935

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.

 2            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 3       Q.   Sir, you testified that you saw an artillery school of the BH Army

 4    located at the Faculty of Architecture.

 5       A.   That's correct.

 6       Q.   This is in addition to the three tanks you claim to see in the

 7    very same compound?

 8       A.   I saw the tanks around the buildings.  They don't enter the

 9    buildings and the school.  I saw in the building, and I spent some time

10    there too, about 20 minutes.

11       Q.   So this school, artillery school, that you saw at the Faculty of

12    Architecture as well as the three tanks should be visible from the -- from

13    the route which go alongside the compound in which the faculties and the

14    three tanks you claim to see was situated?

15       A.   I wasn't able to see the school from the building.  I went into

16    the building and saw the school.  But the tanks could be seen from the

17    road.

18       Q.   Weren't this road used regularly by UN personnel, including

19    members of the UNPROFOR as well as UN monitoring observers?

20       A.   I didn't look at them very often, because it was a narrow road and

21    they used wider roads to go around in their vehicles.

22       Q.   Both roads alongside, whether it is wider or narrow, both roads go

23    alongside this compound on either side; isn't that the case, sir?

24       A.   There is one road, Hasana Brkica Road on one side, and behind the

25    complex, the Kosevo complex, there is a narrow road, it's the Ivan Tomic

Page 16936

 1    road.

 2       Q.   Sir, have you seen UN personnel at the Kosevo Hospital?  Have you

 3    seen the persons in the blue berets and the blue helmets at the Kosevo

 4    Hospital?

 5       A.   I saw General Rose and I saw a Swiss doctor, her name was, I

 6    think -- I can't remember, but she came to see me personally on two

 7    occasions.

 8       Q.   So you knew --

 9       A.   She was a representative of the International Red Cross.

10       Q.   So you did know members of the UN, as well as members of

11    the -- including members of the UNPROFOR who visited the hospital, you

12    knew them?

13       A.   I don't know what was UNPROFOR and what the other

14    structures were, but I could come across them in the town and within the

15    complex of the Kosevo Hospital.  But I couldn't distinguish between the

16    two.

17       Q.   Would you agree with me that UN personnel visited the hospital

18    practically daily?

19       A.   Well, that was not the case while I was working there.

20       Q.   Wasn't there a generator provided to the hospital by the UN, sir?

21       A.   Yes, but it would work for half a year.  They even brought fuel

22    for it, but that was not done on a daily basis.

23       Q.   Wasn't the refueling of the generator and the maintenance of the

24    generator done by the UN?

25       A.   Yes, but that's not done every day, but when necessary, and

Page 16937

 1    sometimes that's in 15 days' time.

 2       Q.   Sir, would you at least agree that the hospital complex was

 3    regularly visited by UN personnel, if not daily?

 4       A.   That's correct.  They sometimes came to visit the hospital.  I

 5    couldn't say what the intervals were, but they really did come

 6    occasionally.

 7       Q.   Did you have the opportunity to speak to any of them?  You

 8    mentioned the name of General Rose.  Did you have an opportunity to speak

 9    to -- have a conversation with one of them?

10       A.   No.  I was in the corridor when he passed by.  There is one thing

11    that you have to understand, I was a Serbian and the foreigners didn't

12    have to come and see me, only the International Red Cross came to see me.

13       Q.   Did you have any problems about speaking to UN personnel or

14    contacting them in any way?  Did you personally have a problem?  Or did

15    you feel you had a problem?

16       A.   Madam, the people who took them around the hospitals were

17    Bosniaks.  They didn't bring them to Serbs.  Only on two occasions did

18    they come to see me personally.  They went to a different office, and it

19    was the representative of the International Red Cross, who was a doctor

20    from Switzerland.  She was the only person who came to see me personally.

21       Q.   Sir, I don't mention your position because we are in open session,

22    but considering the position you held, did it not occur to you to complain

23    to the UN personnel or perhaps the member of the Red Cross who came to

24    visit you to -- about the three tanks which are located in the adjoining

25    compound or the artillery school which was located at the Faculty of

Page 16938

 1    Architecture?

 2       A.   Believe me, they were able to see that just like I was, but I

 3    didn't speak to them and I wasn't able to tell them about this.

 4       Q.   So as you say you -- you are aware that they themselves saw this,

 5    the three tanks, you came to have seen and the faculty of -- the school

 6    which was located at the Faculty of Architecture?  You just said they

 7    could themselves see it.

 8       A.   You have to understand one thing:  Whenever the international

 9    forces were in the vicinity the army took no action, but when they left,

10    the army went into action.  That was -- those were the tactics employed.

11       Q.   Sir, apart from UN personnel, did you ever see journalists come

12    into the hospital?

13       A.   On several occasions journalists did come, particularly after

14    larger scale operations when there were more injured persons and following

15    them, there would be journalists coming, very frequently.

16       Q.   Did you ever have the opportunity to speak to any one of these

17    journalists?

18       A.   I only spoke once with, I think his name was John Brown, an

19    American reporter.  In fact a doctor had linked us up with the request

20    that he take me out of Sarajevo.  Unfortunately he left three days later,

21    and I remained.

22       Q.   When did you speak to John Brown, sir, the person -- the

23    journalist named John Brown, when was this?

24       A.   That was in the summer of 1993, probably May.

25       Q.   Did you inform him of the three tanks you saw in the adjoining

Page 16939

 1    compound or the artillery school you claim to have seen at the Faculty of

 2    Architecture?

 3       A.   No.  I only spoke about my request that I be taken out of Sarajevo

 4    at that time or at that moment I wasn't interested in tanks.

 5       Q.   So, is it your impression that you were not interested in bringing

 6    to a journalist's attention the fact that there was an element which posed

 7    a risk to the hospital just adjoining the hospital complex, even though

 8    you had the opportunity, is it your impression, and you were only

 9    interested in being taken out of Sarajevo?

10       A.   That is true.  Because any word that I would have spoken at that

11    time in that context would have represented an additional risk for me.

12    Don't forget that I was persecuted in the lift and the only thing that

13    saved me was that a nurse took me up to the -- up all the way up with the

14    elevator, and she saved me from being killed.  And of course in such

15    circumstances, a fear develops and along with it, the wish to leave this

16    area.

17       Q.   Sir, are you saying that you lived in fear during your stay in

18    Sarajevo?

19       A.   I lived in fear -- I lived in an atmosphere of fear which

20    occasionally became fear.

21       Q.   So you did live in an atmosphere of fear, and you wanted to get

22    out of it or remove yourself from that situation of fear?

23       A.   That's correct.

24       Q.   Did your family live with you in Sarajevo during the period you

25    worked and lived in Sarajevo, sir?

Page 16940

 1       A.   The children did not.  They were in Novi Sad in Yugoslavia, and my

 2    wife in the summer of 1993, I think it was June, she also went out and

 3    went to be with the children and I remained by myself.

 4       Q.   So why did your children and the wife leave Sarajevo?  Were

 5    you -- is it that you were scared for their lives and you asked them to

 6    leave?

 7       A.   I feared -- I was in fear for their lives and I thought it was

 8    better that they -- for them to be elsewhere.  You see, 200.000 people

 9    left Sarajevo.

10       Q.   So apart from yourself, sir, there were others, the civilians who

11    too lived in fear, like you, sir, during this period?

12       A.   That's correct.  They lived in -- with a certain amount of fear,

13    with a certain amount of danger, that's true.

14       Q.   In your examination-in-chief, sir, you stated that you did not

15    observe fear amongst the population, and let me quote you.  Transcript is

16    now page 13651.  Let me quote you, sir.  "However, I was not able to see

17    some unusual behaviour among the population that would not correspond the

18    situation around us.  A person who is afraid has an improper reaction to

19    the situation which one finds himself.  This is what we call panic, and I

20    did not observe panic.  The hospital continued to operate as did schools

21    although they schedule was somewhat different.  But still they continued

22    to operate.  People even went to bars and restaurants and got married."

23            You indicated, sir, in testifying in examination-in-chief that

24    life seemed to proceed quite normally, yet now you do admit that people

25    lived under fear.

Page 16941

 1       A.   I reiterate what I said, everybody felt a certain dose of fear,

 2    but they were not living in panic, that is a different thing, although I

 3    am not a psychiatrist, but panic in my opinion means that that would be

 4    behaviour inadequate or not for the circumstances the person was living

 5    in.  But if a person is worrying, is concerned that something unpleasant

 6    will happen, then that is a dose of fear, of worry.  I lived with a little

 7    dose of fear.  You cannot live in a state of panic.  You cannot work in a

 8    state of panic, but you can live and work with a certain dose of fear, and

 9    that's what we did.

10       Q.   Sir, your testimony was that you left Sarajevo in January 1994.

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13       Q.   After your release, after the arrest, sir, you did not go back to

14    Sarajevo and you lived elsewhere, isn't that the case, sir?

15       A.   That's correct.

16       Q.   During -- after you left Sarajevo, sir, where did you live or

17    where did you work?

18       A.   I lived in the Serbian Sarajevo and after the war finished and

19    since the war has finished, I have been living in Trebinje.

20       Q.   So when you lived in the Serbian Sarajevo as you put it, was there

21    any risk or any threat to you or were you free to do as you please?

22       A.   I didn't live freely.  I didn't like to live there, but I didn't

23    have any other conditions to live in.  I was in the hospital, I lived in

24    the hospital throughout this time.  I was in a ward, in a medical hospital

25    ward by myself, but it was a hospital ward.

Page 16942

 1       Q.   During this period, sir, did you not have the opportunity to

 2    inform the UN personnel of the three tanks you observed in the adjoining

 3    compound of the Kosevo Hospital or about the artillery school at the

 4    Faculty of Architecture which you claim to have seen?  And I am saying

 5    after you left Sarajevo, after your arrest and you were living in the

 6    Serbian Sarajevo.  Did you not have the opportunity or did you not think

 7    it proper to inform the UN?

 8       A.   We all believed that they knew this, and that they had seen it,

 9    and that any additional information would have been superfluous or

10    useless.

11       Q.   You did not think it appropriate to take that additional step to

12    inform, in case it has not been observed?

13       A.   I didn't think in this way.  They could have read it in the press,

14    published in the Serbian Sarajevo, and I believe that I have read this.

15       Q.   Which press --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne apart from the next question which I

17    will allow you to put to the witness, but would the nonreporting of three

18    things not be a subject sufficiently dealt with until now?

19            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President, I will just ask one more

20    question with regard to that and move on.  Thank you, Mr. President.

21       Q.   You referred to the press in which people could have read about

22    the tanks.  Which newspaper or which media are you referring to, sir?

23    Could you specifically mention the name of the newspaper, if it was a

24    newspaper?

25       A.   I am speaking about the television of Serbian Sarajevo, and I am

Page 16943

 1    speaking about newspaper a Serbian Oslobodjenje.

 2       Q.   Sir, during the time you worked in Kosevo, did you ever go out of

 3    the hospital complex to treat patients, if I may use the term, did you

 4    ever make "house calls"?

 5       A.   I didn't make house calls ever, and only on one occasion a deputy

 6    director for economic matters of the Kosevo Hospital in 1993 took me to

 7    operate on her sister in the city hospital.  That is my only trip when I

 8    went to that hospital, the only time that I went out of the Kosevo

 9    Hospital and performed my duty as a doctor.

10       Q.   So that was the only time you left the Kosevo Hospital complex to

11    treat any patients?

12       A.   The only time.

13       Q.   Sir, in the examination-in-chief you stated that you went to the

14    dental faculty to treat the wife of Juka Prazina whose headquarters you

15    claimed was situated at the dental faculty near the Kosevo Hospital.  So

16    by your -- by what you just stated in your previous testimony that you

17    left the hospital to treat Juka Prazina at the dental faculty is

18    completely incorrect?

19       A.   The dental clinic is very near behind the Kosevo Hospital.  I went

20    in my medical doctor's coat.  I believe that that was within the Kosevo

21    Hospital complex.  That's why I said I went to see Juka Prazina's wife.

22    But the other city hospital is in the other part of town.  Because up to

23    the dental clinic we were just all walking normally as if we were anywhere

24    in the Kosevo Hospital.

25            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I see the clock.  I could

Page 16944

 1    perhaps come to a convenient point and stop or perhaps we could stop at

 2    this time?

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you still need, Ms. Mahindaratne

 4            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  About another half hour, Mr. President.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Another half hour.

 6            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I believe -- yes, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  If you give me one second --

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to ask you

 9    if I can finish tonight.  I have duties elsewhere and just like last time,

10    I am asking you, requesting to finish tonight.  I have asked last time to

11    be here just for two days and I have been here now six days.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  We will do our utmost best.  That's what I can

13    promise you.  In your interest and the interest of the Tribunal and of the

14    parties.

15            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, can I just come to a convenient

16    point and then take the break

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you can do that in not more than a couple of

18    minutes.

19            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well.  Mr. President.

20       Q.   Sir --

21            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President, perhaps we could take the

22    break at this time because I would need to show him the map to proceed.

23    That would take some time.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  We will adjourn until five minutes to 6.00.

25                          --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

Page 16945

 1                          --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, on the basis of the bookkeeping of

 3    the Chamber, there is 24 minutes left, and cross-examination as it went on

 4    until now, gives no reason for the Chamber to grant any more time than

 5    these 24 minutes.

 6            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into

 8    the courtroom.

 9                          [The witness entered court]

10            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown map marked number

11    D1758.  Mr. President, maybe we have to go into private session.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we go into private session.

13                          [Private session]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 16946













13  Pages 16946-16950 – redacted – private session













Page 16951

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18  [redacted]

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22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25                          [Open session]

Page 16952

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  We are now in open session and could you please

 2    proceed and could you please wait until the cursor stops moving.

 3            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 4       Q.   Sir do you remember an incident where the abdominal surgery clinic

 5    was shelled in the last week of November 1993, and where two nurses were

 6    killed, are you aware of this incident?

 7       A.   I heard about the shelling, but I didn't hear about the deaths.

 8    And I think that this is an incorrect information.

 9       Q.   Is it your impression, sir, that you never heard that the

10    abdominal surgery clinic was shelled and two nurses were killed while

11    three doctors and a technician were injured, is it your impression that

12    you never heard of this or never learnt or this which was given much

13    publicity?

14       A.   I heard about the shelling of the clinic for abdominal surgery but

15    I am categorically saying that nobody was killed.  It is one compound of

16    one hospital, that is 100, 200 metres from where I worked and I would have

17    know.  And I knew all the doctors in that clinic.  I would have to heard

18    about somebody getting killed.  After all I was a medical director and

19    this information could have come to me in any case.

20       Q.   Apart from the doctors, did you also know nurses who were working

21    or attached to the Kosevo Hospital?

22       A.   I didn't know all the junior doctors of the Kosevo Hospital.

23    There were 3.000 doctors and nurses, so no one doctor, no one person would

24    have known every single doctor or nurse.

25       Q.   Sir, did you know a nurse by the name of Heco Sefika?

Page 16953

 1            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I withdraw that, Mr. President.

 2       Q.   Sir, have you visited the Kosevo Hospital complex since the

 3    cessation of hostilities, perhaps recently?

 4       A.   Last year I went to the orthopaedic clinic with my friends.  They

 5    were students of mine, or assistants, in fact.

 6       Q.   Have you --

 7       A.   We were very well received.

 8       Q.   On that visit or perhaps before, have you observed or have you

 9    seen the memorial erected in the hospital premises in memory of the

10    employees of the hospital who were killed due to shelling of the hospital

11    premises?

12       A.   I drove up to the orthopaedic clinic, to the entrance to that

13    clinic, and I really didn't see that plaque.  I was given to the

14    orthopaedic clinic.

15       Q.   Do you know that there is such a plaque there?

16       A.   No, I am not aware of that.  I didn't see it.  And the colleagues

17    with me didn't speak to me about it.

18       Q.   Sir, you used the word "plaque," and I used the word "memorial".

19    How do you know it was a plaque?

20       A.   I said plaque by chance, it is called a plaque or a memorial, you

21    know, whenever you have a memorial you have a plaque with the name on it.

22    So when we talk about memorials we also mention plaques.  These terms are

23    synonymous for us.

24       Q.   Sir, you said during the times you were working at the hospital

25    you were in charge of admissions of patients?

Page 16954

 1       A.   That's right.

 2       Q.   Could you perhaps give an average or average estimate of how many

 3    patients were admitted to the hospital during the period May 1992 to

 4    January 1994?  Perhaps an approximate figure.

 5       A.   There were days when there wasn't a single wounded person.  I was

 6    responsible for them.  I wasn't responsible for other patients.  But there

 7    were days when 100 wounded would be admitted, even over 100, and this

 8    includes those who were slightly wounded and those who were seriously

 9    wounded.

10       Q.   My question, sir, to you is whether you could give an approximate

11    figure of the number of admissions, wounded patients who were admitted to

12    the Kosevo Hospital?  I am talking about the total amount during the

13    period May 1992 to January 1994, the time you were there, and I am

14    referring to the period of conflict.

15       A.   While I was there, I think the number was between 3 and 4.000, but

16    this is a very rough estimate.

17       Q.   Did you have the opportunity to perhaps -- I withdraw that.

18            Can you give an approximate figure of about how many civilians,

19    wounded civilians, were admitted during this period?

20       A.   Again, this is a very rough estimate, I think 75 or 80 per cent

21    were soldiers and the remainder, 20 or 23 per cent were civilians.

22       Q.   I asked you for the figures.  Or how did you conclude that 70 or

23    75 per cent of the admissions were soldiers?

24       A.   Well, when we included -- when we took away the old people and

25    children and people who weren't wearing uniforms, when we took that number

Page 16955

 1    away from the number of the soldiers, we were left with the figure for the

 2    soldiers.

 3       Q.   That is true but to give a percentage you would have to have the

 4    numbers.  Did you have the opportunity to make a survey or assess how many

 5    wounded civilians and how many wounded military personnel were admitted?

 6       A.   A minute ago I said 3 to 4.000, and they were all listed in the

 7    same list, and we mentioned who was a civilian and who was -- we mentioned

 8    who was a civilian and who was a soldier.  You can work out what the

 9    number of the soldiers were on the basis of the percentages given, 75

10    person.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, your 24 minutes are over.

12            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If I could perhaps be given two more questions,

13    Mr. President.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Two more questions I will allow you, yes, please.

15            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16       Q.   Sir, you stated in examination-in-chief that you saw armed

17    individuals being admitted to the hospital, you said sometimes personnel

18    in uniform as well as persons with arms were admitted to the hospital.

19    And I am referring to transcript page number 13628.

20       A.   Madam, you're correct.  There were people who were in civilian

21    clothing wearing carrying weapons and we considered them to be soldiers.

22    I considered them to be soldiers.

23       Q.   Sir is it your impression -- is it your position that injured,

24    wounded people were admitted to the hospital still carrying arms?

25       A.   There were weapons in each corner of the hospital.  Most of the

Page 16956

 1    wounded people came with weapons on them.  One such man -- one such man

 2    also ran after me so I ran away to the roof of the building.

 3            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, one more question as a follow up

 4    to that response.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that is really the last question.

 6            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 7       Q.   When you said that wounded persons were admitted to the hospital

 8    with weapons on them, are you suggesting that they were carrying weapons,

 9    there were weapons placed on these persons, wounded people?

10       A.   They were bearing weapons, and many had weapons on the hospital

11    beds that they were lying on.  Security was just unable to do anything.

12            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That was my last question, Mr. President.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, is there any need to re-examine the

14    witness?

15            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to put to

17    you, Mr. DP51.

18                          Questioned by the Court:

19            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Only one question and my question is:  You

20    said that you lived with a certain amount of fear.  When you said that

21    were you referring to a special fear because you were a Serb living within

22    the BH population or a general fear as a normal person living in a place

23    where a war was being held?

24       A.   There were two causes for my fear.  Firstly, I could have been

25    killed like anyone else in Sarajevo; and secondly, because I was a Serb

Page 16957

 1    and on the few occasions that I went into town, I always went with Muslim

 2    friends and they still visit me today.  So there were two reasons for my

 3    fear.

 4            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Thank you.  No further questions.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Judge El Mahdi always has one or more questions for

 6    you.

 7            JUDGE EL MAHDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8            [Interpretation] I would just like to clarify something.  Firstly,

 9    you said and I'll quote you so that there are no misunderstandings [In

10    English] "It is possible to hear."

11            [Interpretation] It is possible to hear a shell, it is possible to

12    hear its trajectory because it has a sound which is similar to the sound

13    of a plane.  Is this also true for mortar shells?

14       A.   For mortar shells?  But there weren't any mortar shells.  Mortar

15    shells don't have such a range.

16            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am quoting you because you

17    spoke about tank fire.  You said you could hear the shell, in the air you

18    could hear the sound.  So my question is, did you yourself hear the sound

19    of a mortar shell, for example, could you distinguish between the sound

20    produced by a mortar shell and the sound produced by a tank shell?

21       A.   No, I can't.  I am not such an expert.

22            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  My second question

23    concerns the following:  When you were testifying you said that you could

24    see the tank firing the first shell, and then you would flee.  I'd like to

25    know whether you fled because you were afraid that shells would hit the

Page 16958

 1    hospital or was it possible that -- was an exchange of fire possible?

 2       A.   I apologise.  We weren't afraid of the guns, the field guns in

 3    front of the hospital.  Soldiers wouldn't make such mistakes, but we were

 4    afraid of the response from the other side because of small errors and

 5    because the trajectory was long, the hospital could be hit.

 6            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if I have understood you

 7    correctly, you were afraid of a possible reaction?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And my last question, could you

10    tell me the name of -- could you tell me again about Juka Prazina's wife,

11    what was her work?

12       A.   I apologise.  I said that a minute ago, she worked in an

13    outpatient clinic in the town of Sarajevo before the war, and Juka, well,

14    he was a freelance manager.

15            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  I will interrupt

16    you because we are running out of time.  I thought she was a nurse.

17       A.   Yes, a nurse in an outpatient clinic in Sarajevo.

18            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, and she was wounded in the

19    cheek, the joint?

20       A.   Yes, yes, in the cheek.

21            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you say when this incident

22    took place, was it while she had -- while she was performing her duties or

23    was she somewhere else or at home or perhaps you don't know.  Could you

24    provide us with more information?

25       A.   I can't.  I can't.  I saw her when she was lying in the clinic,

Page 16959

 1    when she spent five or six days in the clinic, and where she was wounded

 2    and what the conditions were I really don't know.

 3            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was this wound caused by a

 4    bullet, a shell fragment, what was the cause of the wound, as far as you

 5    know?

 6       A.   It was a fragment of a projectile, an explosive device, that's

 7    what caused the wound, a fragment of a projectile.

 8            JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you,

 9    Mr. President.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Since I have no further questions to you, this

11    concludes your testimony in this court.  I can imagine that you are

12    relieved that you will be able to return.  I wanted to thank you very much

13    not only for coming, as I ask most of them, but even for -- just if you

14    have one second.  Could you please put your earphones on.  I wanted to

15    thank you not just for coming, but even for coming twice, which is quite

16    unusual.  Thank you very much for answering all the questions of the

17    parties and the questions of the bench.  And I hope that you will again

18    have a safe journey home.  Thank you.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good-bye.

20                          [The witness withdrew]

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through

22    the documents.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1757 under seal, pseudonym sheet; Exhibit

24    D1758 under seal, map marked by witness.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Both documents are admitted into evidence since there

Page 16960

 1    are no objections, 1757 under seal.  Yes.  I am making a mistake, the map

 2    also under seal, 1758.  I take it -- yes.  I made a mistake.  Both

 3    documents are admitted under seal.

 4                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber, although usually using the time up to

 7    the very last minute, considers it perhaps better not to start the

 8    examination of the next witness.  If there would be any other issue to be

 9    raised, we have nine minutes left, so it could be done at this very

10    moment.  But I see that none of the parties has any issue.  Yes,

11    Mr. Ierace.  Yes, I wondered whether --

12            MR. IERACE:  I can hardly let the opportunity to go past, Mr.

13    President, but I think this is relatively uncontentious.  Can I simply

14    confirm the identity of the next witness, perhaps in private session.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we turn into private session.

16                          [Private session]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

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16                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17                          6.41 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

18                          the 9th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.