1 Tuesday, 10 December 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor vs.
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good morning to
10 everyone. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber was informed that you would like
11 to address the Chamber. Please do so. Let's all try to keep in mind
12 that, if possible, we'd like to finish with both witnesses still in the
13 Hague in this moment now.
14 Yes, please.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Yes, Mr. President, I will be briefer than
16 usual. Thank you. I want to say that the Defence is going to suggest
17 that the Prosecution concentrate on giving us a translation of this famous
18 document --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that General Galic is not
20 receiving any translation.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there -- is it is matter of the channel chosen?
23 It should be on six.
24 [Interpretation] Is it working now?
25 [In English] Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 What we suggest is that the Prosecution should give us again, if it
3 intends to submit this document which we don't and can't accept in any
4 case, we suggest that they give us a translation which could be more or
5 less correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It is the same. Could someone assist General Galic.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. The General has
8 just told me that it is correct now. If it is not working, the general
9 will tell me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We compared the two texts
12 until late in the evening yesterday and there is certain discrepancies and
13 I would like to thank the Trial Chamber for the attention it has paid to
14 this. There are certain discrepancies which are such that we don't see
15 how this text in its translated form, because we have translation from
16 English to Serbian and Serbian to English, so we don't think that in the
17 translated states it should not be submitted as such. It is not a
18 document that one can rely on. I have made a list of 20 pages listing the
19 errors. At times, there are places which are completely invented which
20 can't be found in the audio cassette, and which are found in the English,
21 that is to say, the translated version. This problem occurs on several
22 occasions. Once again this is not acceptable. So very briefly, if the
23 Prosecution could provide us with this, if they could make this effort to
24 give us a text which would be more or less well translated and on the
25 basis of which we could work, that would be good. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We have to keep in mind that the B/C/S text is not a
2 translation of the English or the English a translation of the B/C/S. It
3 is the words spoken as such, but, as I understand, and the Chamber did not
4 check it on the basis of the tapes that there might be mistakes or errors
5 in the transcript as such as well. If finally we would have to use these
6 texts, if there are any errors in translation made at that time, that does
7 not take away that at least then now the words spoken at that time which
8 can be checked on the tape by the witness should be properly translated.
9 I will first ask -- so we will pay proper attention to that before
10 giving a final decision on whether or not this document can be admitted.
11 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think
13 that there is nevertheless -- there are nevertheless elements which
14 independently of the translation or the lack of translation are not
15 understandable to the extent that there are things which are contained in
16 one text, but aren't in the other. So yet again as I said the other day,
17 there is a lot of the confusion there and one can't make anything out.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Fortunately the witness is here, so if there is any
20 problem we could ask him to -- and we asked him already yesterday to see
21 whether there would be any parts which were in need of either correction
22 or completion.
23 But before doing so, I would like to -- we will pay attention to
24 that when the witness is in the courtroom again. I have a few other
25 issues on which the Chamber would like to draw your attention as well.
1 Let me just find them. I have a few questions for the parties before we
3 First of all, about the maps, the Chamber, as it stands now, on
4 the basis of the information received until now has difficulties in
5 accepting the maps according to the new software, especially it's not
6 clear in what -- to what extent the basis of the maps could be that
7 precise as to make a distinction between 2 metres, 3 metres, 4 metres,
8 which, of course, for the lines of sight might be of importance. It might
9 be not too difficult to understand how difference in elevation of 30, 40
10 or 50 metres could be easily detected, but what would be the difference
11 between a van standing somewhere and making the elevation two metres
12 higher. How has this been measured? And that could be of importance for
13 the very specific lines of sight as we find them on the new map. So the
14 Chamber would need more information before giving a final decision in
15 admitting this new software technology.
16 Next issue is the 92 bis statements. As far as the recollection
17 of the Chamber goes on the 29th of September it was announced that the
18 92 bis statements could be expected somewhere in the next month. Could
19 the Defence inform the Chamber on whether any request has been made to the
20 Registrar, whether the statements have been prepared or not? I see
21 Ms. Pilipovic that you are nodding no. Does that mean --
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not yet, not yet.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that not even a request has been made
24 to the Registrar in order to start with the proceedings necessary to come
25 to an acceptable 92 bis statement to be introduced at trial?
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that hasn't been
2 done yet. I think that we will be doing that over the next few days
3 recollect but I don't think that there will be many 92 bis statements.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, we will see. But please pay proper attention
5 to that issue and do it as quickly as possible, because otherwise we might
6 get stuck somewhere in the near future.
7 Next question would be: When will the expert reports --
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- the expert Jovanovic be filed?
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regard to the
11 expert report of Mr. Jovanovic, I think that Mr. Jovanovic won't be an
12 expert who will be presenting the problems of his analysis, but at the end
13 of this day and when we leave for Belgrade, we will think about who the
14 expert will be and very soon inform you who the expert will be.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would this mean -- still a start would be made
16 in drafting an expert report.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The expert report is being worked
18 on, but I would like to -- it is in progress, but I would like to inform
19 the Chamber that it won't be Mr. Jovanovic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So the next issue in respect of expert reports, first
21 of all, in general, I think the Chamber has made clear what it considers
22 to be an expert. An expert is a person whom by virtue of some specialised
23 knowledge, skill, or training can assist the trier of fact to understand
24 or determine an issue in dispute, that is how the Chamber defined what the
25 expert is in the decision concerning the expert witnesses, Ewa Tabeau and
1 Richard Philipps. And at several occasions, both on the 2nd of August and
2 also when discussing the expert report of Mr. Higgs, the Chamber has given
3 some additional guidance to the parties. That is the four elements then
4 mentioned of what the Chamber expects from an expert. The first one, that
5 there should be full transparency of the established and the assumed facts
6 on which the expert relies.
7 Second element is that the methods used when applying his or her
8 knowledge, experience or skills to form the opinion of the expert should
9 be also transparent. It is -- some of the determinations to be made are
10 the exclusive domain of the Chamber and not of the expert. So therefore I
11 invite the parties to - at least at this moment the Defence - to reread
12 all these requirements very carefully and see whether your expert reports
13 are meeting these standards. And if not, perhaps that either additional
14 information will be given or -- because the Chamber, for example, has not
15 found for every witness a full and -- curriculum, a curriculum which would
16 explain why this person is supposed to be having special skills or
17 knowledge. Sometimes it is also unclear, at least it seems unclear, what
18 is the factual basis on which the expert has based his or her expert
20 For example, sometimes it seems that the expert is relying on
21 statements of witnesses, so not testimony but statements of witnesses,
22 that might be even be unknown to the Chamber, whereas it also seems that
23 sometimes the expert might have no knowledge of the testimony given in
24 this court on specific incidents. So, therefore, it is very important for
25 the Chamber to know exactly what has been the factual basis on which
1 the -- the factual sources on which the expert relied. Sometimes it seems
2 that experts base their report on the existence of certain facts without
3 an explanation as to the basis on which the witness assumed these facts to
4 be true. If I just may give you an example, for example, the Chamber has
5 read in one of the reports that the Markale market incident resulted in
6 eight people killed. It is not clear to the Chamber on what basis the
7 witness has assumed or established this fact, that is unclear. And at the
8 same time, one could wonder whether it is not in the exclusive domain of
9 the Chamber to establish whether and if how many people were killed and/or
10 injured on this shelling incident.
11 The Chamber would like to make quite clear to the Defence that
12 even if an expert appears in this court and testifies, that the Chamber
13 will always keep in its mind the requirements necessary to accept parts or
14 the whole of a report as an expert report, and the mere fact that part of
15 a statement will be admitted into evidence or -- of a report will be
16 admitted in evidence or even if the report is such will be admitted in
17 evidence. That does not mean that the Chamber will accept all the
18 findings of that expert. It should be totally clear that in order to
19 accept findings of an expert that the factual basis, that the methodology
20 and that the transparency both to the factual sources and to the
21 methodology used, should be met.
22 Finally, but this is in respect of a specific report, if the
23 Chamber is not mistaken, the report of the expert Terzic was not announced
24 previously, and the Chamber takes the position that one would wonder
25 whether this report would have sufficient relevance to be admitted, and
1 therefore invites the party to make submissions as to the relevance of
2 specifically this report. Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you
4 remind me of the name that doesn't appear clearly, I think.
5 JUDGE ORIE: T-E-R-Z-I-C, if I am making no mistake. Yes. It is
6 the report on the past of Bosnia-Herzegovina written by Dr. Slavinko
7 Terzic. Then I would like to turn for one second into closed session.
8 [Closed session]
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again. I think now we are
24 come at a moment where we could ask witness DP30 to re-appear. Yes,
25 Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before we do that, could I raise some
2 matters very quickly?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. IERACE: Firstly in relation to the issue of the interview of
5 this witness, it would still be helpful to me to know with some confidence
6 whether ultimately in one form or another the -- a record of that
7 interview will be accepted into evidence. Could I respectfully suggest
8 that the safest course at this stage from that perspective would be for
9 the Prosecution to tender copies of the tapes themselves, and in due
10 course to provide, that is to tender, formal transcripts -- I am
11 sorry -- formal translations of the B/C/S transcript into evidence.
12 Mr. President, since this problem has come to light yesterday,
13 Prosecution has taken steps to obtain from CLSS formal translations of
14 B/C/S transcripts of interviews where they were done of Defence witnesses.
15 That may mean that unless those translations are available beforehand,
16 that we will not have them at the time that some of the Defence witnesses
17 are called. With that in mind, I proposed today to remind the Defence of
18 which witnesses on their list have been interviewed and to seek their
19 cooperation by not calling those witnesses until we have provided them
20 with copies of the formal translations.
21 I emphasise that we are seeking the highest priority for that task
22 from CLSS. So, Mr. President, the first issue is whether the
23 Trial Chamber can, at this stage, indicate that it will accept into
24 evidence at least a copy of the actual audio tape. With that knowledge, I
25 intend to be very brief with the witness.
1 Secondly, we were informed by the Defence a few days ago that --
2 of the identity of four witnesses that the Defence proposes to call in the
3 first week in January.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You are referring to the Ukrainian witnesses, or if I
5 may call them --
6 MR. IERACE: Two Ukrainian and two Russian. We will not be ready
7 to cross-examine those witnesses unless the Defence provides us
8 immediately with the rank of those individuals and their dates of birth.
9 I did raise this last week in court and I understood that we would have
10 received that information yesterday. We still haven't received it. I am
11 concerned that this is the last opportunity that the Prosecution has to
12 raise the matter in the presence of the Trial Chamber, if we don't receive
13 it today.
14 On that issue, might I simply remind the Trial Chamber that of
15 course we will need the presence of the interpreters in the Russian and
16 Ukrainian language in that first week.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me first start, perhaps --
19 MR. IERACE: One more matter, Mr. President. You may recall
20 that - I think - some weeks ago now we raised the issue that we did not
21 have -- we were not provided with translations of the appendixes to the
22 reports of Professor Cavoski and also Dr. Kosova [phoen]. We did raise
23 that in a meeting with the Defence shortly after I raised it in the Trial
24 Chamber, and we were told that we would receive some more information. We
25 have not received any information. And we do still take the position that
1 we require those appendixes to be in a language of the Tribunal. Thank
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very briefly
5 because we are running out of time. But as far as the transcript is
6 concerned, our position is very clear. In addition, and you have noticed
7 this yourself, the witness made quite a few corrections with his own hand,
8 and instead of saving time, we have unfortunately wasted a lot more time.
9 In addition this is a document that hasn't been signed by the witness,
10 that hasn't been provided to him at the time and perhaps isn't accepted by
11 him. So we can't accept that one tenders a transcript which is sometimes
12 incorrect, as a matter of principle we can't accept it, and in a situation
13 which we don't know what the was like, and it wasn't signed by the person
14 concerned, and it was never officially accepted by this person. And I
15 think that certain information, the ranks, were provided to the
16 Prosecution and the dates of birth as well. And Ms. Pilipovic could add a
17 few more details with regard to this information. Thank you.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as the dates
19 of birth are concerned of the four witnesses that we proposed in our
20 submission of the 6th of December and we gave the information regarding
21 their ranks and the time that they spent in Sarajevo during the relevant
22 period, and we also gave the information who was there at which time. I
23 have two -- for two witnesses, copies of their passports. I have already
24 submitted them to the victims and witness unit. And then I will then
25 submit the information to my learned colleagues about their dates of birth
1 and expect that during the course of today I will get the information for
2 the other two witnesses. I, of course, regard this as my duty, as my
3 obligation, and I will do this while I am still in The Hague. I will
4 provide the relevant information. And I have informed my learned
5 colleague last week that I will make sure that I do everything by the end
6 of today. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think there were four issues. The first one,
8 I will deal with it later, that is the indication on whether the statement
9 or at least the audio tape could be admitted into evidence. The four
10 witnesses, rank and date of birth, I do understand that it's either
11 provided or on its way. So perhaps during the break you could check when
12 exactly the full information will be provided. Then we have the
13 translations prepared by the Prosecution of statements given by Defence
15 I take it that the parties will, at least the Defence will,
16 consult the Prosecution in order to, if necessary, reschedule or at least
17 organise the appearance of these witnesses in such a way that no -- not
18 unnecessary problems will arise from the nonavailability of the
19 translations of their statements. And then finally, I did not hear an
20 answer yet on the translation of the appendixes to the Kosova [phoen]
21 report. I take it that the Prosecution will be informed during the next
22 break about the point of view of the Defence.
23 Then let's return to the first issue you mentioned. Let me just
24 confer. One moment.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, to give you an indication about whether
2 an audio version or a written version would be admitted to the Chamber,
3 the Chamber would prefer first to ask a few questions to the witness of
4 the homework he did yesterday, and to find out whether the written version
5 or the audio version would be a sufficiently clear basis to proceed upon.
6 Madam Usher, could you please escort Witness DP30 into courtroom.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 WITNESS: WITNESS DP30 [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Mr. DP30, may I first of all remind
11 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
12 beginning of your testimony? Yes. Mr. DP30, I was informed that you
13 worked until late yesterday and that you -- we received copies of the, I
14 would say, the redacted version, and I saw that you not only paid
15 attention to the -- to the Bosnian Serbian Croatian version, but also a
16 bit to the English version.
17 May I first ask you in general terms, apart from any specific
18 points to be corrected or to be adjusted or to be given a further
19 explanation, that in general, does the text as you found it on paper
20 reflect the main lines of your statement?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that the text has been
22 rather inexpertly translated. I have a feeling that all of this has first
23 been translated into English and then after that it was translated into
24 B/C/S. So in many sentences some words are repeated. Sentences do not
25 have meaning. And even some questions I have a feeling have been changed,
1 and as such are not the same.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We can check on the basis of the audio tape,
3 and if necessary, we could just make you hear a small portion of that in
4 order to see whether this is your voice giving a statement. We could
5 check that. May I ask you to quickly go with me and could perhaps the
6 witness be provided with the --
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask you where you have written a "T"
9 could perhaps the witness be provided -- it should not be put on the ELMO
10 since it will be a document under seal. But where you have written a "T,"
11 could you explain what you meant with a "T"?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was thinking of translation. I
13 meant in relation to the translation.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we perhaps quickly go through your
15 remarks in the Bosnian Serbian Croatian version of this document. I would
16 very much like to concentrate in order to see if we can conclude your
17 testimony today, to concentrate on those parts that need further
18 explanation or where you that the way we find it in the text might create
19 confusion. So rather not on every single detail of a word which would not
20 create confusion, but is not perfectly translated. So I find on page 2
21 that you added a few words, approximately one-third from above. Could you
22 explain. It reads "approximately like Koliko" or --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, I believe that
24 it so. And here it says "indistinct or inaudible."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you filled in the words that you, as far as
1 your recollection go, have spoken at that time and where the audio could
2 not be deciphered. Yes. Could you please slowly repeat the words so that
3 they are translated to us, the words you have written. It is already
4 "approximately like Koliko" yes?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, these are the
6 words that should be here, and I believe that's what I said.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, then we turn to page 3 where you, on the
8 second line, you filled in something as well.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On page 3 I put in what my post was,
10 which is the commander of the 2nd technical warehouse. And what cannot be
11 heard is "of ammunition and explosive and mining devices."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then approximately in the middle you have
13 stricken out a few words and replaced it by another word. Could you
14 please explain that.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here several words were added in
16 translation, and they do not correspond to the text. What I thought it
17 was is that "according to the plan of the superior command, mobilisation
18 was carried out according to the wartime establishment. And that the
19 warehouse should have had about 350 people and that the department or the
20 section in Renovica, some 30 kilometres away should have 150 people."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what we find better in the English text.
22 As far as I can see what you are saying now is more in accordance with the
23 English text. Okay then you added something in the left margin
24 approximately in the middle of the page. Could you explain what
25 that -- if you just read what you have written.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A question and answer are missing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and are you telling us that they are in the
3 English text or have you not checked that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is in the English text, is there,
5 and while in this one it is not there.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So there is a divergence between the B/C/S
7 version and the English version. Then I see that you corrected a little
8 bit later on the word "general" I think I saw such a word in the English
10 Then could you please turn the page 4. Do I have to understand
11 just below the middle of the page that a word should be in a different
12 place; is that how I have to understand that line with a -- what seems to
13 be a small arrow?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the text there are a lot of
15 additions like that, these superfluous words that are being repeated and
16 they even make a sentence meaningless.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you have pointed at these parts of the
18 text, yes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I mostly either underlined
20 them or crossed them out.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then just below the middle of the page I see a
22 bit longer line starting with the word - I certainly will pronounce it not
23 correctly - "povecani" what does that mean, that line that you have drawn
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On page 5?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Page 4. It is just below the words "sto je vojska
2 imala odredeni." You see there is a line from "povecani" to...
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. As far as I remember
4 nothing in particular was undertaken towards civilians except that the
5 army had a certain increased level of readiness, which means that in the
6 sentence words are not in their proper order. So the sentence has no
7 meaning. Further on the translation itself is interrupted, so as a whole
8 the text could correspond to the translation but it isn't correct.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then further down on this page you added one
10 word in the right margin and three words in the left margin. Could you
11 please read them so that we --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is about the soldiers of Muslim
13 nationality who in spite of Alija Izetbegovic's call not to respond to the
14 military service, still remained serving their military service, that is,
15 they did not wish to leave the army service until they completed it.
16 Because of this situation, the Croats themselves didn't respond either.
17 So what I have explained is because of such a situation, the Croats
18 themselves no longer responded to the JNA except for some individuals, for
19 mostly individuals. So that is how it should be. And I believe that that
20 is what I said yesterday during my testimony, something like that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So let's now turn to the page 5. Page 5, as far as I
22 could decipher, the following order of questions and answers at the
23 beginning is a bit divergent from what we find in the English text. Could
24 you please read what you have written to the left -- in the left margin on
25 page 5.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote a question and answer are
2 interrupted. And in the English version it is all at once.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we have to check that on the basis of the
4 original audio tapes. Then in the middle of the page you did add one word
5 just above where it reads "Brodove."
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They were taken to the Ploce
7 harbour in order to be boarded on to ships."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is about the ammunition as far as I
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We see, I take it, some smaller correction on that
12 page. Could we please turn to page 6. You have written something after
13 the first answer written on that page. It seems that you wanted to insert
14 something. Could you read what it says.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is inserted here and
16 some answer in the English version.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is the English version correct in this respect, as
18 far as you could see?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember now. This is --
20 was, as far as I remember, about the warehouse, the Faletici warehouse.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we have to pay proper attention to your
22 exact words on the original tape. Then a bit lower down it seems that you
23 added something as to the structure of the JNA. Is that an addition or is
24 that a correction? You will find it in the right margin.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Again the translation is
1 the problem. Some words are repeated, unnecessarily repeated, I don't
2 think that is how they are in the English version. And mostly the answer
3 is that 744th logistics base -- yes. In fact, it is the question. "Where
4 was the location of the 744th logistics base within the structure of the
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's how you understood the question to be.
7 Then a little bit further down you added one word just above where it
8 reads "twenty." Would you please read that word you added.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. When the JNA left after the
10 20th of May, the logistics base gave a new -- received a new name, the new
11 demarcation as the 27th logistics base.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. That's more or less in conformity
13 with the English text. Then could we turn to page 7. You added in the
14 fourth paragraph, you added a few words. Could you please read your
15 answer as in your recollection it should have been.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, when we took the ammunition
17 from Pretis that was produced there, as I said, throughout the war in the
18 immediate vicinity of Muslim positions, for the ammunition taken I had to
19 send reports every day to my superior command, that is, to the command of
20 the 27th logistics base, just like other warehouses from the base, and the
21 base then forwarded them to the Main Staff.
22 That's what the answer should be like, more or less.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then you added a few words a bit further down near to
24 where the numbers "92" and "93" appears. Could you please read that
25 specific part as in your recollection it should read.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, twice it's been repeated,
2 something 1992, 1993. And what should this be in relation to, is that the
3 translation should be that this was some time, the end of 1992 or the
4 beginning of 1993, that is, to be more precise, that this lasted some six
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. If you then would turn to page 8.
7 You added two words in the right margin at approximately one-third of the
8 page. It seems to contain 155 millimetre. Could you please read that.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It seems to me that I had said
10 "155 millimetres."
11 JUDGE ORIE: Rather than -- instead of 152 or?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Maybe 155. I can't remember
14 JUDGE ORIE: It can be checked. Then you added a few words a
15 little bit below where it starts reading "Da li" could you please read
16 those words.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Where smoke and tracer shells
18 produced and this was in relation to mortar shells, mostly." Here the
19 translation is a little unclear, but that's what it means.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this clarification. Then on page
21 9 you added one word on the first line.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was what my main duties
23 were in the warehouse. And so I added, I think that's what I said more or
24 less, that my main duty was first of all to organise the guard duty of the
25 warehouse. And that on the orders of the logistics base I should issue
1 means. And then from the production I should receive, means into the
2 warehouse. And further on the text is more or less the same. It
3 corresponds. There is a problem in relation to the translation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have on -- you added I think one word in the
5 right margin a little bit lower. It seems to part with a "P." I can't
6 read it. Could you read what you added there.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here I added, clarified, what cannot
8 be heard.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You filled in the word where a question mark
10 appears in the text; is that correct?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What word would that be?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That this was in the period while
14 care was taken about saving ammunition, and to plan the use of ammunition
15 precisely, according to the tasks given that was supposed to be carried
16 out. That's, more or less, what should be here.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Then I see some smaller correction
18 mainly on the calibres as it seems, further down. You corrected numbers,
19 I take it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Here there is in military
21 terminology, one knows that when one says 762, that means 7.62
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it says 14 and a half. I only
25 wrote 14.5. Then 42 -- 40 is repeated on two occasions, that's not
1 necessary. And then for the Howitzer, I think, instead of 82 it should
2 say 76. Perhaps that's what I said.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we turn to the text page, page 10. Could
4 you please read what you corrected in the first paragraph, that's also
5 again, I think about calibres.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's the same case here. It
7 has to do with 18, it's not calibre 82. It says but 90, but it should say
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then a few lines further there seems to be a part
10 inaudible. Could you please explain what you said there or what is in
11 your recollection what the answer should have been at the very end where
12 it reads "tenkovske mine i" at the end of this first paragraph.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that. But I can't
14 put anything else here in the context.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, if you can't, it is no problem. May I take it
16 that almost at the end where you have stricken out some words, that they
17 should be just stricken out because they make no sense or...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Words are repeated.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So they are not necessary here. The
21 sense is lost.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And on then page 11, perhaps, first the first
23 paragraph where you underlined a part.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it says that during the first
25 two years I wasn't included, I didn't participate in the maintenance.
1 When I was in the logistics base, I was the commander of the warehouse.
2 But on the grounds of my barracks a maintenance support company had been
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose of which was to maintain
6 technical and material equipment. Furthermore, weapons were taken there
7 to be repaired, vehicles were taken there to be serviced, repaired, and in
8 the nearby factory, to the nearby factory, Famos Koran, which similarly
9 had men and spare parts that could be used to repair vehicles.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that the rest of the page, these
11 are mainly textual corrections? If there is anything that is of
12 importance, would you say, "no, that needs further explanation or
13 clarification," please indicate that clearly. We then turn to page 12
14 where you added one word approximately on one-third of the page. It seems
15 to be something like "opravlijali." Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it has to do with artillery
17 weapons. I said if the defects were fairly serious, in that case the
18 weapon would be taken to the workshop. But if minor defects were in
19 question, then people from the workplace, from the workshop would be sent
20 to the locations where these weapons were located, and they would repair
21 the weapons on site. That was a procedure which was well known in the
22 army and a procedure that was followed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That is also approximately what we find in the
24 English text, as far as my recollection goes. Mr. DP30, I take it that
25 the other are rather textual issues. Then we turn to page 13. You
1 underlined in the first paragraph a few words. Was that a clarification
2 or could you explain.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the translation is not clear
4 in that as units asked to be brought up to strength, well, I said that
5 units would send their requests to their superior command, that is to say
6 to lower units in their brigade, in the command of its brigade, and then
7 the request would be relayed to the corps from there. And it would then
8 be forwarded to the Main Staff for the sake of bringing up to strength.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that the other marks you made on
10 page 13 are just textual corrections, and would that be true for page 14
11 as well?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The translation is fairly
13 good, but the order should be somewhat changed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's what you indicated. Then we turn to
15 page 15. You added two words just after you, for the first time,
16 mentioned the name of General Kovacevic. Two words are added. Could you
17 please read them. I think you filled in what was inaudible. Page 15.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At the end of 1992. Here it
19 says "incomprehensible" and you can just see the number two that has been
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whenever there is anything that needs further
22 clarification, please indicate so. But I now turn to page 16. First
23 paragraph, you added one word and you underlined.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the whole it concerns the fact
25 that as time passed by, the technical equipment got -- the quality of the
1 technical equipment deteriorated and it was worn out, it became worn out.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the other parts of page 16, are these
3 textual? I see that sometimes you just have stricken out words that
4 appear again. Are these all textual rather than...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a lot of repetition.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if we turn to page 17. Would that be
7 approximately the same or would you like to comment on any of the
8 underlinings or marks you made?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think the question was put
10 exactly as it was in English. It hasn't been entirely reproduced. I
11 think it said "during the inspections, examinations, what sort of problems
12 did you notice in the brigade?"
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are now talking about the first line of page
14 17, I take it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any of the other underlinings need specific
17 attention on this page?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, words are repeated, what I
19 have underlined. Perhaps the order should just be changed.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But it does not substantially affect the content of
21 your answers?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not substantially.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turn to page 18.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here I would like to clarify
25 something. On page 17, paragraph 4. The reason for which weapons were
1 not cleaned after that had been used, that's what I said. However, an
2 additional clarification is required. It was wartime after all, so
3 weapons had to be maintained in the field. Combat activity didn't make it
4 possible for the weapons to be cleaned on a daily basis, and there are
5 other reasons that one could mention, and I have already mentioned certain
6 things in response to questions put to me by the Defence yesterday.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this clarification. We then turn to
8 page 18. It seems that you have stricken out in the middle of the page a
9 relatively longer part of the text.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In response to the question "How did
11 the logistics base function within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?" I said
12 that the assistant for logistics, Colonel Krsmanovic, and his assistant
13 was Milivoje Solar who unified the work of logistics services, the
14 technical service, the quartermaster service, the medical service for a
15 certain period of time there was a representative of the veterinary
16 service, and the representative of the construction service there. So
17 these were services that functioned in 1995 on the whole when I was within
18 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for clarifying this. Does any of the other
20 corrections need specific attention on this page or is it rather textual?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the clarification below
22 where I have underlined something, it says "incomprehensible." So that I
23 said that on the whole the other commands at various levels, the superior
24 levels and the commands of the logistic base, I said that they had a
25 similar structure to the logistics base, to logistics organ, and that the
1 financial service entered that structure.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then may I ask you to turn to page 19,
3 especially in the middle of the page you underlined a bit more. Would
4 that need some explanation or -- I hope that you understand that I cannot
5 see the original text, so I have to try to find out what needs specific
6 attention and what not.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just would like to say that this
8 question concerned the period during which I was already in the corps, and
9 it doesn't really refer to this -- to what is the subject of the
10 discussion today, but in the translation certain words are repeated twice,
11 even three times. It refers to the fact that we had, with
12 Colonel Krsmanovic as assistant for the corps logistics, we had daily
13 meetings with him in the morning at 8.00 when we dealt with issues
14 concerning logistics security, and discussed unit's requests. We were
15 then given priority tasks for that day and we forwarded their requests to
16 the superior command in relation to the logistics security in services.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if none of the other -- I don't know
18 whether any of the other changes on page 19 needs further explanation or
19 clarification, or is it just textual? I see that there are a lot of
20 repetitious words.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I mentioned an example. We
22 weren't always at the logistics command post, but also at forward command
23 post to help with the logistic security, to help with the organisation of
24 logistic security when the Muslim side was preparing an attack on the
25 whole, we were then sent to those forward commands as help for lower units
1 and units which would come to help the corps.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's also approximately how it reads in the
3 English text. Could we then turn to page 20. And in page 20 I see three
4 big question marks approximately in the middle and also that you are
5 connecting one part of the text to another part. Could you please explain
6 what is in the second half of the page, what your problem was?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand why in the
8 English text, and it has been translated like this here too, I don't know
9 whether it is some kind of provocation or humiliation, but I explained
10 that the corps command was located in Lukavica where I was on duty in the
11 corps, and that the logistics command place was in Pale, and that if
12 necessary they would form forward commands if or rather when defensive
13 actions were planned or actions to take back positions that had been taken
14 by the other side. But here it says, just trying to remember the right
15 expression, but the previous response was given, but the response was
16 given previously. That's not -- that can't be correct because it seems
17 that I said that. It is "incomprehensible" that's what it says again.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So proper attention should be paid to that.
19 Could we then perhaps turn to page 21. I see that there are some
20 corrections as far as the calibres are concerned, 7.65, 40.5. "Broving"
21 is "Browning."
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: On the last three lines I see that you have
24 underlined a word "nerazumljivo," something like that. Could you please
25 explain that.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That has to do with the question
2 that I discussed yesterday. I said that the 27th logistics base wasn't
3 under direct command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, but I said that in
4 accordance with the military rules, that was possible or rather that's how
5 it was according to our rules in the JNA. The corps had its logistics
6 base, that it relied on directly.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then next page, 22. Is there any need to
8 explain? I see that you underlined the word "multiple" in the middle of
9 the page.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Again, the word
11 "Romanija" is repeated above, and I underlined. It should say whether the
12 reports came from the both sides and that they could be checked.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Did you underline the word "multiple" where it reads
14 in the English: "Would receive multiple reports from the logistics base."
15 Could you please explain why you underlined multiple?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I underlined it because it wasn't
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the rest of the page, is that textual or
19 is that a fact of content?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think the translation is
21 correct here, as far as reports are concerned. So reports were sent to
22 the superior command, daily reports, depending on the issue, if it was the
23 production of ammunition and taking it into the warehouse and then perhaps
24 weekly reports or reports submitted every two weeks or every few months
25 depending on what had been ordered by the superior command and what had
1 been requested by the superior command. And that would also include
2 semi-annual and annual reports.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please turn, if possible to page 23.
4 I see that you underlined in the sixth paragraph three words, " sta ce
5 trebalo" something like that. Could you explain that. Did you find that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question as it was put to me,
7 well, it's not comprehensible. I can't explain that. I can't clarify
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I think that the sense could be
11 explained too. I didn't follow that in English because I couldn't.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that the other corrections are
13 rather of a textual character?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. Some words are
15 unnecessarily repeated.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could we please turn to page 24. Is that
17 all textual rather than related to the content?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, especially towards the end.
19 The penultimate paragraph, it has to do with the translation which is not
20 correct. It should state that some of the requests from the units
21 themselves weren't dealt with by us. Everything went through the
22 Main Staff.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's how we should read that part of your answer?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then turn to page 25. You especially
1 underlined quite some words in the second paragraph. Could you explain.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, certain words were repeated.
3 It is not necessary. It says the same twice.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so it is rather textual than content. Then in
5 the middle of the page you made -- is that also a repetition of words or
6 is that -- does that need some explanation?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is probably a problem in the
8 translation. The line of your deployment, that's not very comprehensible.
9 It is not clear in this context, in the context of the question. Perhaps
10 it is not like that in English.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the English has the -- the question has been put
12 in English so we will finally be able to see what question has been put to
13 you at that very moment and see whether the answer is comprehensible in
14 that respect. Could we then turn to page 26. Is that a fact of content?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, there are certain
16 repetitions. Perhaps twice it says that the Main Staff tasked or gave a
17 deployment order.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we would then turn to page 27, that seems to
19 be all textual, rather than -- is that correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, mostly. There are some
21 repetitions of some words.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Page 28, could you --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You, on the third paragraph where
25 you -- a question is put to you, you underlined certain words there.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps the answer was different but
2 I heard that he was the Chief of Staff of General Galic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we come to page 29.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where it says "incomprehensible" it
5 should say, "until the command of the logistics base has been established,
6 which that is -- was imprisoned until the 6th of June 1992 when the
7 command got out of Sarajevo."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The other corrections you made, do they effect
9 substantially the content or...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Substantially, it doesn't change the
12 JUDGE ORIE: I see that you've come to this page and then you were
13 not able to finish the last two pages. The Chamber will consider whether
14 you will be invited to do the last pages as well. But we first need a
15 break. So we will continue after the break. We will adjourn until 10
16 minutes past 10.00 -- past 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Two counsel standing at the same time.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Before you render a decision regarding this document, so that we don't
23 waste any more time, and so that we can allow the Prosecution the time to
24 explain their position, I just would like to briefly state some things.
25 But I think they are very important things to be said. May I have your
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- As brief as possible.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wish to
6 say is the following: We are going to need some rapidity to read the
7 documents at the same time, parallelly. We have come to page 20 and what
8 we are going to see is that this witness -- this witness was seen certain
9 things, has not seen other things and I am going to show this in the
10 following way, Mr. President. If we look at page -- I will just take the
11 most obvious things, if we look at page 10, for instance, at the end of
12 the page we have something that seems to be -- have been interpreted as
13 probably over 300.000 tons, et cetera. Now, if you look at page
14 corresponding to the Serbian text, and I will give you the page straight
15 away, and we only have 3.000 tons, not 300.000 tons.
16 And if we continue on to the following page, there are mistakes of
17 the same type, but in order not to waste time, I would like us to look at
18 page 13 in Serbian, which should correspond to page 13 or 14 in the
19 English version, and it corresponds -- yes. Could you please look at page
20 13 of the English text. Examine the most important paragraph on this page
21 which begins with "as anywhere in the army" and to compare it with page 13
22 of the Serb transcript which begins with the first paragraph, the word
23 "Kao," you will see, Mr. President, in the middle of the Serb text that
24 in the middle of the Serb text, it says "towards the Main Staff" which has
25 not at all been translated in the English text.
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... The
2 inconsistencies and I think, as a matter of fact, and on page 13, the
3 witness has clarified the issue. But it is not clear in my recollection
4 whether it was page 13, but I think he did. The Chamber is fully aware of
5 that and is certainly -- will not just accept these documents in the form
6 as they are. That's -- but, Mr. Ierace asked for an indication. Is there
7 anything else you would like to draw the attention of the Chamber to?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Just
9 simply in relation to the cross-examination of the Prosecution, we have to
10 know what is going to be done with these documents, bearing in mind that
11 there are things that have escaped the attention of the witness,
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace asked for an indication.
14 Mr. Ierace, you were on your feet. Did you want to add something or were
15 you just waiting for the indication you asked for?
16 MR. IERACE: Just that, Mr. President, that pursuant to your
17 request earlier this morning, I approached the Defence during the break to
18 discuss the two issues, one being when we would receive the details for
19 the witnesses in January, the dates of births and ranks. I noticed over
20 the break we have now received a letter which contains the dates of births
21 of two of these witnesses that the Defence seeks to add to the witness
22 list. I am told by the Defence that they cannot tell us when we will get
23 the additional information, just that we will get it as soon as possible.
24 In relation to the appendixes to the reports, much the same.
25 I asked the Defence whether there was any progress, any difference
1 between what they have told me today and what they said three weeks ago,
2 and effectively, they said no, no difference. So, Mr. President, the
3 Prosecution is not in a position to agree to the four witnesses being
4 added to the witness list for the Defence, in these circumstances, nor can
5 we be ready in the first week in January to cross-examine those witnesses
6 without having a proper period of time to make our inquiries. And in
7 relation to the appendixes I would be grateful if the Trial Chamber would
8 fix a date to which the Prosecution is to receive the appendixes in a
9 language of the Tribunal.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
11 these are not new witnesses, but just a change of witnesses. We do not
12 want to add new witnesses, four new witnesses --
13 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is when does the Prosecution receive ranks
14 and dates of birth, that's the issue. Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I replied to Mr. Ierace
16 earlier that we have done everything that was necessary, that is, we have
17 done the impossible trying to contact the people who would be able to give
18 us this information, and that if we managed to do this immediately after
19 2.00 p.m. this afternoon, we will communicate this to Mr. Ierace. I was
20 very clear. I cannot guarantee things that I don't know about.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, the Presiding Judges and the Chamber
22 would like to be informed by 6.00 this evening if the Defence would not
23 have managed to give the ranks and dates of birth of all these four
24 witnesses to the Prosecution and we will further consider the translation
25 of the annexes.
1 Ms. Pilipovic.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, just
3 a very brief clarification. In our submission of the 6th of December, the
4 Defence informed the Chamber and gave precisions as to its submission of
5 the 29th of November this year, in a sense that we changed the order
6 of -- calling order of witnesses. So in our submission of the 6th of
7 December, we clarified that we were not adding new witnesses to the list,
8 but that the four existing witnesses that are already on the list that has
9 been submitted, we are changing that with four new witnesses. So it is in
10 this sense we just were replacing them. So four new ones are being
11 replaced by --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Who did raise the issue of this being new witnesses
13 rather than replacing -- old witnesses replacing other ones? I think the
14 issue at this very moment is ranks and dates of birth. Am I correct?
15 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. And without that information, we
16 oppose the addition of these new witnesses.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. So the issue is -- and that's what I
18 would like to be informed about by 6.00 this afternoon -- whether the
19 Defence has been able to give ranks and dates of birth to the Prosecution.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Ierace, you asked for an indication -- yes.
23 The Chamber gives the following indication to you, that if we would have
24 to consider the admission into evidence of the previous statements, a
25 statement given by Witness DP30, that the Chamber will consider to admit
1 it into evidence if it receives, first, the audio tape of the interview,
2 then it would receive the transcripts, both in English and B/C/S, as we
3 have seen them today, with all the markings made by the witness so that we
4 can better understand the transcript of today's session where the witness
5 explains about these markings.
6 We would then need a transcript of the original words spoken,
7 whether it is in B/C/S or in English, so that would be a mixed transcript,
8 reflecting what the investigators have said in English and what the
9 response has been by Mr. DP30 in B/C/S. So that would be a mixed
10 transcript, and not as it is now, either English. So we would have the
11 original words spoken in that transcript, and we would then like to have
12 an official translation of that mixed transcript into English, so that
13 there is a full possibility to reconstruct precisely what has been said,
14 and that we are not dependent on translations that were made on the spot
15 which might not be complete or what might still contain errors. Because
16 we have seen that there are some differences in the translation as it was
17 done by the translators.
23 therefore, the translation work done at that time might have been to the
24 best of the abilities of the interpreters but is not a sufficient basis to
25 accept the documents as they are.
1 Then you may proceed -- after I have given this indication, you
2 know what the Prosecution would have to provide in order to have these
3 statements considered to be accepted, to be admitted into evidence. Yes,
4 Madam Usher, could you please escort Witness DP30 into the
6 Could you, Mr. Ierace, could you consider whether you would need
7 the last few pages, whether we have to ask the witness to go through
8 the -- I don't know what the relevance is, otherwise we could perhaps
9 limit it to those parts. But of course the Defence is in a position to
10 say, well, these pages are very relevant for us. If you could do without
11 these last two pages, we would not have to ask the witness to work even
12 harder than we all do.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. DP30. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just one thing, Mr. President.
16 The Defence is very concerned about the time. The Prosecution wanted to
17 produce this in order to save time, and it is already now half past 11.00,
18 so if we can speed things up, that would be good.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace.
22 Q. As you have heard, Witness, we have some time problems. If you
23 can answer properly in a few words my questions.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the usher can assist us by
25 moving the ELMO slightly so that --
1 JUDGE ORIE: You have a line of sight to the witness.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Yesterday, sir you mentioned amongst the weapons at antitank
4 guided rockets, 9K to 11. Were they in your warehouse, those -- that
5 particular weapon, type of weapon?
6 A. Rockets 9K-11 and they were in my warehouse.
7 Q. What does "9K-11" refer to? Is that simply the model number of
8 that system?
9 A. It is a Russian guided rocket, it is an antitank rocket, 9K-11 is
10 its marking.
11 Q. And how is the rocket guided? Is it by a wire or some other
13 A. The rocket is guided by a wire.
14 Q. So does that mean that the operator controls the path of the
15 rocket by means of a wire, that is, communications along a wire between
16 his control mechanism and the rocket during its flight so that it can be
17 steered onto the target?
18 A. Yes. As far as I know in that set there is also a control board
19 to control -- to guide the rocket and it can -- the rocket can be guided
20 up to the target.
21 Q. All right. Were there any of those weapons in your warehouse in
23 A. In my warehouse there were, as I already said, all types of
24 ammunition and ordnance equipment, mines and explosives.
25 Q. Including that particular system?
1 A. Yes, as far as I recall. These were smaller reserves.
2 Q. Do you know what the range was of that rocket system? In other
3 words how far could that rocket travel from where it was launched in that
4 guided fashion?
5 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know because that's not my field of
7 Q. Was it also in stock in 1993 and 1994?
8 A. As far as I recall while I was at the warehouse, there were.
9 Q. Did you ever deliver any of those systems to any of the brigades
10 of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps in 1992, 1993, or 1994 up until August of
11 that year?
12 A. There was a lot of deliveries issuing not only to the SRK and also
13 to the Drina Corps, and there was also distribution among the logistics
14 base, on the basis of the order of the Main Staff. So I really wouldn't
15 be able to tell you exactly whether this particular delivery took place.
16 Q. But had the brigades wanted them, they were available in that
17 period of time; is that correct?
18 A. If they had asked for them, the Main Staff would have probably
19 approved that.
20 Q. All right. Now, yesterday you were asked some questions about the
21 nature of tracer bullets and incendiary rounds. Do you know what it is in
22 a tracer bullet which allows it to be seen in flight? What chemical
23 substance is it?
24 A. It is a chemical substance which ignites and you can see the
25 trace, the latter -- the end part of the bullet, of the bullet of the
1 round which is flying.
2 Q. Depending on the length of flight of the bullet, does that
3 substance continue to burn and thus produce light after it hits its
5 A. Mostly it is burning throughout the flight of the bullet.
6 Q. Tell us, what is the difference, therefore, between a tracer round
7 and an incendiary round?
8 A. The difference is in the tracer round you can see its flight; and
9 in an incendiary round when it hits an obstacle, an explosion takes place
10 and the incendiary substance is lit up.
11 Q. Therefore, can we assume that if the round does not explode when
12 it hits its target, but instead ricochets, more or less intact, and if it
13 is producing light then it is a tracer round, not an incendiary round?
14 A. I didn't understand the question well. Could you please repeat
16 Q. That's okay. I withdraw that question. I will move on to a
17 different topic. In reviewing the transcript yesterday afternoon, did you
18 notice that at one point you were asked what weapons, that is, what
19 infantry weapons you held in your warehouse. Do you remember reading
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. You mentioned, amongst other weapons, pistols, semi-automatic
23 rifles, automatic rifles --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could this be done in the presence of the witness or
3 do we have to --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think so, I think we can,
5 because we are now speaking about something which is probably not what is
6 going to be accepted by your Chamber later or at another time, because you
7 asked the Prosecution to do something else earlier. Therefore, we are now
8 speaking about the text which is not going to be in the existence in its
9 form, and it could cause technical problems.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I take it that you were referring to page
12 21 of the -- yes. We just went through the transcript and it is my clear
13 recollection that we specifically paid attention to that part so that
14 there should be no problem. The objection is denied. Please proceed.
15 MR. IERACE:
16 Q. Do you still have in front of you the B/C/S, that is, the
17 transcript in Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian, Witness? I think you are
18 looking at it now; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Please turn to page 21 and I think halfway down that page you
21 indicate a number of infantry weapons that were kept in your storehouse
22 for distribution; is that correct?
23 A. Not for distribution, those were weapons which were within the
24 Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
25 Q. Were they -- did they come from your warehouse before they went to
1 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
2 A. No.
3 Q. All right. How do you know that the weaponry in that paragraph
4 was in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, let's say, in 1993?
5 A. Well, I said that I was the chief of the technical service in the
6 corps in 1995, and that I know what kind of weapons there were in the
7 Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
8 Q. Would you please read from the top of that page alongside the
9 initials "RP"
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am told that
13 there is an error in the transcript. I didn't hear it because I was doing
14 something else. But the witness apparently mentioned a different date
15 than the one -- a date different from the one that we can see in the
16 transcript. In the transcript it is "1993." We could ask the question
17 again. And I would like to take this opportunity to ask how much time
18 remains for the Prosecution, because all this work which has been done and
19 which concerns the transcript should be time taken from the Prosecution's
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your position. I am not
22 indicating at this very moment how much time will still be left for the
23 Prosecution. We will consider that.
24 Where -- could you tell me where I find "1993" in the transcript
25 and what line --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is page 43, line 8,
2 Mr. President. [In English] "Let's say in 1993."
3 [Interpretation] 1993 apparently is not what the witness said.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, it is a question. It is a question, so no one
5 considers this to be what the witness said. I think it is the question.
6 Mr. Ierace, could you please check. It is my recollection that's what you
7 asked the witness.
8 MR. IERACE: Precisely, Mr. President. The witness indicated that
9 he understood at that time he was listing the weaponry, which was in the
10 Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
11 Q. Now, could you please --
12 JUDGE ORIE: And then of course in his answer he mentioned 1995.
13 MR. IERACE: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Would you please read from the top of the page alongside the first
17 reference to the initials "RP" and please read it slowly so that we can
18 hear the translation as you read it.
19 A. Here it says: "I will return to a question which I have already
20 asked, it is a fairly technical question" --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP30, could you please read slowly. If one
22 reads, one usually speeds up. So would you please read slowly so the
23 interpreters can follow what you say. Could you please restart.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I will go back to a question that I
25 have already asked. It is a fairly technical question which concerns
1 ammunition which was delivered from the 27th logistics base. I am
2 particularly interested in weapons of a smaller calibre, that is to say, I
3 am interested in hand weapons and ammunition. I know that there were many
4 such weapons in the corps.
5 "Could you tell me anything about these weapons, about such
7 MR. IERACE:
8 Q. Please keep reading.
9 A. The answer?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. "Well, yes, I could. It is not a secret. The pistols that there
12 were were Russian TT-7.62 and then --
13 Q. All right stop there.
14 A. Local pistols of homemade production of 7.62 millimetres --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we perhaps don't have the
16 same text, but I didn't hear the witness read at the end the word
17 "the kinds of rifles and" I didn't hear the witness say that. I don't
18 know whether he has the same text or not. It is at the end of the
19 paragraph concerned.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate what words in B/C/S have
21 not been read out by the witness? Because he was reading the B/C/S
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But I think the last three
24 words which I have just said "[B/C/S spoken]" the kinds of rifles and
25 these last three words weren't read, I think.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least I can follow you pronounced these
2 words. Witness, is it true that you did not read the last three words,
3 "[B/C/S spoken]"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't read them because I think
5 that the question was about all the ammunition and I don't think the
6 translation is good. I don't know what it says in English.
7 JUDGE ORIE: At least you've now pronounced these words. Please
8 proceed, Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE:
10 Q. Now, in reading that question that was asked of you, you said:
11 "It is a fairly technical question which concerns ammunition which was
12 delivered from the 27th logistics base. I am particularly interested in
13 weapons of a smaller calibre, that is to say, I am interested in hand
14 weapons and ammunition. I know that there were many such weapons in the
15 corps. Can you tell me anything about these weapons, about such weapons?"
16 Do you say that you understood that question to refer not to what
17 you provided from your warehouse, but rather what the corps had; is that
18 what you tell us?
19 A. Yes. I understood that the weapons delivered to the corps,
20 according to my understanding, those are the kinds of weapons the corps
22 Q. Do you agree that before you were asked that question at that
23 point of the interview you were asked earlier what type of infantry
24 weapons you had in your storehouse?
25 A. I don't remember such a question.
1 Q. All right. And did you have in your storehouse Russian pistols,
3 A. I had them for my military unit, in accordance with the military
5 Q. Sir, yes or no, did you have that weapon in your storehouse at any
6 stage between 1992 and 1994?
7 A. No.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I have an objection that
9 concerns the relevance, Mr. President, because I don't see what relevance
10 the pistol could have in these proceedings.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The question has been answered, so there is no use to
12 decide on the objection any more.
13 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Did you have machine-guns in your storehouse, warehouse?
16 A. I only had them for my unit, my military unit. So that was the
17 technical warehouse, technical ammunition warehouse of the 27th logistics
19 Q. Sir, in your storehouse did you have ammunition for infantry
20 weapons for distribution to forces of the VRS?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Did you have any rifles for distribution to forces of the VRS?
23 A. Only as part of the reserves. I had 7.9 millimetre rifles which
24 were taken either from Visoko or Hadzici. I can't remember exactly.
25 Q. Were they M-76s?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Are you saying that the only rifles that you had in your warehouse
3 between 1992 and 1994 for distribution to forces of the VRS were 7.9
4 millimetre rifles taken from either Visoko or Hadzici; is that what you
5 are saying?
6 A. Yes. And all I can say is that there were also rifles and
7 ammunition from municipal staffs of the Territorial Defence. From
8 Sokolac, Han Pijesak, two Sarajevo municipalities, I think. Novo Sarajevo
9 or Novi Grad and the municipality of Pale.
10 Q. All right. What different types of rifles did you have for
11 distribution to VRS forces? You've told us about the 7.9 calibre rifle.
12 What else?
13 A. In the reserve I only had M-48 7.9 rifles, and I think they were
15 Q. When you say "in the reserve" were those rifles for distribution
16 to VRS forces or not?
17 A. Yes. Towards the end of the war, that is to say in the second
18 year, instead of defective rifles, 7.62, semi-automatic or automatic ones,
19 M-48s were issued, M-48 rifles were issued in accordance with the orders
20 from the Main Staff.
21 Q. What about towards the beginning and the middle of the war, did
22 you distribute to rifles to the forces of the VRS? Was that part of your
24 A. My main duties involved issuing ammunition and mines and ordnance.
25 That was the purpose of my warehouse.
1 Q. I am not asking you about ammunition. Did you or did you not
2 issue rifles to VRS forces before August 1994?
3 A. No, I didn't issue any, apart from M-48, 7.9 rifles.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we have
5 a problem in the transcript. I heard something being said to Mr. Ierace
6 and this isn't in the transcript. I think that Mr. -- Transcript said
7 and I can't find that in the transcript any more. I don't know. Was
8 something skipped? I am quite sure that I heard Mr. Ierace say this
9 sentence which can't be found in the transcript. I am raising this
10 question as a matter of principle because everything should be included in
11 the transcript.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think there is no disagreement on the principle.
13 Even though it says "Mr. Transcript said something" which is quite
14 surprising but I know that the transcribers are doing their utmost best to
15 reflect every single word. It is not my recollection that anything is
16 missing. If Mr. Ierace finds anything missing, please inform us, if not,
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you can listen to the tapes at a later stage tell the
18 court what exactly you are missing.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE:
21 Q. What about machine-guns before 1994, month of August, did you
22 distribute any machine-guns to VRS forces?
23 A. I have already said that I didn't have such weapons in the
24 warehouse, apart from the staffs of the Territorial Defence, weapons that
25 they had taken. And I said that as part of the reserve supplies, I only
1 had the M-48, 7.9 rifles.
2 Q. All right. Now, you say that in that answer that I took you to,
3 you were referring to the weaponry which the SRK had. When you referred
4 to the domestic sniper rifle, were you referring to the M-76?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown a document.
7 Mr. President, this will be P3769. Perhaps that could be placed on the
8 ELMO. And perhaps we could see in particular the rifle in the bottom
9 left-hand corner, if that could be centred, please.
10 Q. Do you see on the bottom left-hand corner of the page in front of
11 you a photograph of the M-76?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it the position that when you joined the SRK you saw some of
14 these rifles within the SRK; yes or no?
15 A. I didn't see them. In the records, in the operative records that
16 were there, such rifles weren't listed, but units did send them to be
17 repaired in the workshop. The first time I saw such a rifle, as far as I
18 can remember, was in -- when it was being repaired in a workshop. But
19 there weren't many of them.
20 Q. When did you first see them, when did you first see such a rifle
21 being repaired in a workshop? What year was that and what month?
22 A. I think that was in 1993, but I can't remember when exactly.
23 Q. And was that a rifle which had come from the SRK for repairs?
24 A. I think so.
25 Q. When did you next see such a rifle from the SRK?
1 A. I didn't see such a rifle after that occasion.
2 Q. So are you saying -- well, was that the only occasion that you saw
3 such a rifle in the war?
4 A. I think that was the only time.
5 Q. Earlier you said in response to a question which related to when
6 you joined the SRK and these rifles, "in the records, in the operative
7 records that were there, such rifles weren't listed."
8 When you joined the SRK, did you see any mention of such rifles in
9 the records?
10 A. As I have already said, no, I didn't.
11 Q. So you didn't -- the only time you ever saw one of these rifles
12 during the war was sometime in 1993 being repaired, and whilst you were in
13 the SRK, you never saw any record of such rifles. Did you see any record
14 of such rifles anywhere else during the war? Any other VRS documentation
15 of such rifles?
16 A. No, I didn't see this in the records and similarly, I didn't see
17 them where I went to carry out controls. I know that such weapons were
18 fairly modern weapons. They had been recently produced. And I know that
19 when they were being distributed, A-formation units would be given
20 priority and then Territorial Defence units would buy those weapons
21 themselves. So whether it had been included in all units, I couldn't
22 really say, whether all units had them, I couldn't really say.
23 Q. And yet you provided ammunition for that particular rifle, is that
24 correct, from the warehouse?
25 A. Yes. Such ammunition was distributed but it can also be used for
1 an ordinary M-47 and M-48 rifles and for light machine-guns and for 7.9
2 millimetre machine-guns. The bullet is the same and they can be used for
3 these weapons too.
4 Q. But, sir, didn't you stock special sniper bullets marked as such
5 on the box as bullet for the sniper rifle 7.9 millimetre?
6 A. Could you repeat the question? I didn't understand it very well.
7 Q. I will read it back to you: "But, sir, didn't you stock special
8 sniper bullets marked as such on the box as bullet for the sniper rifle
9 7.9 millimetre?"
10 A. Yes, and that's what I stated. I said that such a bullet did
11 exist and that this was marked on the case, and that on the whole the
12 difference had to do with the charge, the way it was charged, in order to
13 extend the range or rather make its trajectory more precise.
14 Q. What particular machine-guns were able to fire those bullets, the
15 bullets in those particular boxes?
16 A. As I said, a 7.9 millimetre rifle could do so, an M-48, then a
17 light machine-gun, an M-53 light machine-gun, and a 7.9 millimetre
19 Q. Did you ever see any 7.9 machine-guns in the SRK?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you mention it in that particular paragraph that I asked you
22 about earlier on page 21?
23 A. Yes, a light machine-gun, and a machine-gun are mentioned. It
24 says the same and that means an M-53.
25 Q. Is an M-53 7.9 millimetres?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is there any other weapon that you mentioned there, apart from the
3 sniper rifle, which is 7.9 millimetres? Please check it, if you like.
4 A. Well, as I have said, those were 7.9 millimetre rifles. And then
5 we had a light machine-gun, and a machine-gun, 7.9 millimetres.
6 Q. Haven't you mentioned only two weapons that could fire the 7.9?
7 One is the machine-gun M-53, and the other is the M-76 sniper rifle; isn't
8 that correct? They are the only two you've mentioned; isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes. I mentioned speaking of calibres, 7.9 millimetre rifles.
10 Further on, I mentioned a light machine-gun, machine-gun M-53, and the
11 sniper rifles, 7.9 of domestic production.
12 Q. All right, now, you mentioned old rifles, 7.2, 7.9, being German
13 rifles from World War II; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. There were such rifles. There were M-47 or 49. I don't
15 remember all the markings.
16 Q. Did the M-53 machine-gun take belt ammunition?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you have -- I am sorry -- did you have belt ammunition for
19 it in your warehouse?
20 A. Yes, we did.
21 Q. Would it be a waste and also inefficient to use specialist sniper
22 bullets loaded one by one into a machine-gun, when you have belt
23 ammunition available, wouldn't it?
24 A. Well, you could say that, but you can also load it. That's not a
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, how much time would you still need? You
2 said a couple of questions.
3 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I didn't anticipate these
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that still does not answer my question.
6 MR. IERACE: I would be finished by half past 12.00,
7 Mr. President.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please try to finish in 10 minutes.
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. Incidently, did you join the SRK in January of 1995?
12 A. The end of January, 28th or 29th of January, as far as I recall.
13 Q. All right. At the beginning of the war, how many tons of
14 ammunition were in your warehouse?
15 A. I couldn't possibly say exactly how much, but I think that there
16 was some 7.000 tons.
17 Q. When you joined the SRK in late January 1995, I take it that by
18 then the artillery and the large mortars were under UN observation in
19 various compounds; is that correct?
20 A. I wouldn't know exactly because this obligation was carried out by
21 the chief of artillery in the corps.
22 Q. No, but didn't you tell the investigator --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to object in order to
1 gain time, I hope. We are here speaking about the year 1995, which goes
2 well beyond the time frame of the indictment. Perhaps the Prosecution
3 could explain why they are walking out, stepping out of this time frame.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace could you tell us what the relevance
5 is of questions about --
6 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, it is difficult to do so in the
7 presence of the witness. I can't do it in the presence of the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask Madam Usher to escort the witness
9 out of the courtroom for...
10 MR. IERACE: Perhaps private session, Mr. President?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will turn into private session.
12 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you may proceed. We are in open session
17 MR. IERACE:
18 Q. Sir, would you please turn to page 27 of the transcript in
19 Croatian, Bosnian and Serb. I direct your attention to the two paragraphs
20 preceding the end of tape 2. In the question alongside the initials
21 "MBTU" you were asked about sniper rifles and the SRK. Would you please
22 read your answer.
23 Before you do so I should say that you were asked also how many
24 such rifles you would expect does this apply.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you are referring to page 27 of the --
1 MR. IERACE: My apologies. It is 26.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- I see that you are referring to page 26.
3 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Page 26, the two paragraphs before the end of tape 2.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can Mr. Ierace
6 tell us what is the paragraph in Serbian so that we can save time.
7 MR. IERACE: I think we have just done that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Page 26. Just the last two paragraphs before the end
9 of tape 2, side 1. Yes.
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. I will repeat the question: In the first of those two paragraphs
12 you were asked about the number of sniper rifles you would expect a corps
13 the size of the SRK to be supplied. How many such sniper rifles would be
14 supplied to such a corps. Would you now please read your answer, slowly.
15 A. "Let me tell you, I don't know that and I wouldn't" -- the
16 translation is not good. I will try. "Let me tell you, I don't know that
17 because I don't know how many such rifles there were at the beginning,
18 sniper rifles, until when I got to the corps. Later on, there were so
19 many rifles that were malfunctioning that they could no longer be used.
20 That is why they were not maintained as they should have been."
21 Q. Sir, when you joined the corps, how many --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President,
24 because we are doing this, we are coming back to ask the question about
25 the time frame which is not included. Because we know that the witness
1 joined the corps outside of the time frame of the indictment.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And that's exactly the same
4 problem as earlier.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- could you give us some more information
7 about the malfunctioning of these rifles. I understand that you were
8 referring to sniper rifles; is that correct?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This answer, I was thinking about
10 all weapons in general, all infantry weapons mostly.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you were specifically asked about sniper
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I said that in the records
14 that I inherited, these rifles were not listed.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But you are talking about the bad maintenance of
16 these rifles. Could you tell us anything about the maintenance then
17 specifically of the sniper rifles you saw at the time?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was speaking about the
19 maintenance I said that in the use of the weapons while the weapons were
20 used, they were not cleaned on a regular basis because of combat
21 operations and because of the conditions of preservation, that is they
22 were always outside in the open, exposed to the weather conditions. And
23 it is possible that there was a lack of discipline of certain individuals.
24 And also shall we say the way that certain individuals, their expertise or
25 the lack of the expertise of the people who commanded their use, people
1 who were in charge of units. All of this influenced the maintenance of
2 the weapons and whether they were in working order or not.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I was specifically asking about sniper
4 rifles. Could you give us -- you are talking general terms, how many
5 malfunctioning sniper rifles you saw at that time?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that in 1993 it was the first
7 time that I saw such a rifle being repaired in the workshop, and there was
8 a problem with the optical sight, as far as I recall. The workmen from
9 the Zrak factory who used to work in Sarajevo before, they had a --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. I asked about what you saw in 1995,
11 but since your answer about malfunctioning of rifles was when you entered
12 the SRK, how many malfunctioning sniper rifles did you see at that time?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't seen them. I didn't see
15 JUDGE ORIE: That makes your answer given in the transcript not
16 easy to understand. Specifically asked in respect of sniper rifles, your
17 answer starts with mentioning sniper rifles, and then you further explain
18 that many rifles were out of order, which one would easily understand as
19 to refer at least also to sniper rifles. Did you hear anything about
20 malfunctioning sniper rifles, even if you might not have seen them
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't hear anything in
23 particular, except for what I said, that the precision and the time that
24 these rifles lasted, that this could have been influenced by the fact that
25 they were not properly maintained.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you are now talking about these rifles, are you
2 referring to sniper rifles as well?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, but I am telling you that I
4 didn't have a record, precise exact record, how many of these rifles there
5 were in the corps.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE:
8 Q. Sir, who was it that told you about problems with maintenance of
9 sniper rifles within the SRK?
10 A. I didn't mention anywhere nor did anyone speak to me about these
12 Q. Just tell us clearly, did you or did you not hear that there were
13 maintenance problems with the sniper rifles in the SRK?
14 A. There were no problems. I haven't heard that there were problems.
15 Q. All right. So the situation is --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We now
18 won't have any more time. The witness, who is going to have to come back
19 in January, and I am just saying this as a fact.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes facts do not seem to be as they are. I
21 asked whether we would have additional time available today to sit. I
22 hope that I will be informed about it soon?
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, obviously the
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 17114 to 17130.
1 facts, they do not seem to be as they are. We already organised a visit
2 in the Detention Unit this afternoon. We are taken -- our agenda is full.
3 This is the first time or the last time that we are able to see
4 General Galic before the end of the year.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, how much time would you still need?
6 MR. IERACE: A minute or two, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please take your two minutes.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
9 Q. Sir, so I can understand what you are telling us about sniper
10 rifles, is this the position: During the war you only ever saw one. You
11 understood that the SRK had them, as we see in the transcript, but apart
12 from that one you didn't see them, you never saw any records about them,
13 and you never heard any problems about maintenance or malfunctioning of
14 these weapons. Have I accurately summarised your evidence?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: As the parties might be aware of, the Chamber tries
21 to prepare a continuation later this afternoon, but of course a lot of
22 arrangements has to be made, if we would be able to finish, that of course
23 would have been far better. So I call upon the parties to work as
24 efficiently as possible and we certainly would finish with this witness
25 before the lunch break. Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness
1 into the courtroom.
2 I haven't asked yet, but is there any need on the side of the
3 Defence to re-examine the witness? I take it that it is.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just one question.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear that last -- but
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, first of all, good afternoon. You
10 answered to a question asked earlier in relation to the sniper rifle, as
11 we call it, and to units. My question is the following: If each unit had
12 received a delivery of these so-called sniper rifles, that would have been
13 found in the records that you mentioned.
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. Leading question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question has been answered.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Yes.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I also had one additional question that just occurred to me, and
21 this one is in relation to the ammunition, the so-called incendiary
22 ammunition. Do you know if infantry troops of the corps had such
24 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. There is no reference to
25 time period.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Whatever the time period.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, I think if we need clarification, we
4 would ask for it, as far as the time is concerned. We are talking about
5 the -- when you were in charge of the warehouse, could you answer the
6 question in that respect.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when the ammunition was issued
8 for the semi-automatic machine-guns, that's how it was packed. The
9 ammunition was packed in cartridge belts, an ordinary bullet, anti-armour
10 bullet, incendiary bullet, that's how it was issued. It was issued in
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I am speaking -- perhaps that was not properly interpreted -- but
14 I am speaking about infantry troops. My question was in relation to
15 infantry troops.
16 A. Well, as far as I know among infantry troops there were
17 anti-aircraft machine-guns, according to the establishment structure that
18 they were supposed to have those.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. No
20 further questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have a few questions for you.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP30, you told us about the warehouses and where
24 they were. You also told us about the Marshal Tito Barracks in Sarajevo.
25 Were there any warehouses apart from storage in Marshal Tito Barracks,
1 were there any warehouse that were after the encirclement of Sarajevo, at
2 least, well, troops gathering around Sarajevo. So after the lines had
3 been established, were there any warehouses within the, I would say, the
4 BiH-held part of the city or were they all in the Republika Srpska-held
6 A. In Sarajevo itself, I can't be very precise about that because
7 there were a number of barracks there, for example, Viktor Bubanj,
8 Jusuf Dzonlic, the barracks at Alipasino and then in Nedzarici, Rajlovac,
9 the school centre, there was a command at Bistrik --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I am not asking about -- but specialised warehouses
11 where greater amounts of ammunition and/or weaponry was stored. You told
12 us about Faletici and how it went with Faletici. But similar warehouses
13 of similar size, were they also within the BiH-held territory?
14 A. As far as I know there weren't -- there wasn't such big warehouse
15 in Sarajevo.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer. Then you told us
17 that the JNA was standing guard at the Faletici warehouse.
18 A. As far as I know the guard of some units from Lukavica was there.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that normal that the JNA would stand guard
20 at what, if I understood your testimony well, was a TO, Territorial
21 Defence warehouse?
22 A. Yes, it was normal, because they didn't have men who were
23 permanently mobilised and who could stand guard.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So JNA had some -- there was JNA presence where the
25 TO would have stored its weapons, is that how I have to understand your
2 A. I can say that by the warehouse of the Territorial Defence there
3 were reserve units which were part of the JNA. There was probably some
4 equipment belonged to some units from Lukavica that had been stored there
5 or what I mentioned earlier on while I worked in Zenica, there was a ABH
6 (nuclear, biological, chemical) battalion, a reserve force battalion, so I
7 don't know exactly what else there was there.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers. Mr. DP30, let me first
9 ask, I do understand, Mr. Ierace, that a further -- that you do not tender
10 that part of the transcript which has not been reviewed by the witness.
11 Is that a correct understanding? These are the last -- I think it is on
12 from page 30. Would be 30, 31, 32 and a few lines on 33.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will rely on that, but given the
14 requirements of the Trial Chamber for the tender of a record of that part
15 of the interview, in my submission that would provide a proper basis for
16 having been tendered.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and of course we do not have any explanations
18 and clarifications as we had on the other pages.
19 MR. IERACE: However, the steps to be taken should resolve any
20 difficulties with the interpretation provided by the field interpreter.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the indication the Chamber has given is an
22 indication including page 29, and we have to see what happens if you will
23 tender, finally, the last pages.
24 Then may I ask you -- Mr. DP30, I would like to thank you very
25 much for having come to The Hague.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before I thank you for -- yes, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I draw your attention to one
4 aspect of those pages, page 32, almost halfway down the page, indeed the
5 first question asked on that page which is the second paragraph, there is
6 an issue there which I think is relevant to these proceedings. If you are
7 minded, because the witness has not checked it, to decline --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is that page 32?
9 MR. IERACE: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And it is the second answer on that page?
11 MR. IERACE: The first question on that page raises an issue --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the first question, that is the second
14 MR. IERACE: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We have spoken about?
16 MR. IERACE: Yes. And I think that is an important issue for
17 these proceedings and I would have no objection if you, Mr. President --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I will read it to the witness and see whether there
19 is any comments.
20 Mr. DP30, I will read two passages of the part that you might not
21 have checked, because it might be of importance, because the Prosecution
22 thinks it is of importance. I will read it to you and if there is any
23 comment to be made on the correctness of the answer or whether you said
24 this or not, please let me know. The question was at that time: "We've
25 spoken about ammunition that was supplied, that was manufactured within
1 the Republika Srpska. Did you receive ammunition from any other sources?"
2 And then the transcript reads as your answer: "As far as I know,
3 ammunition was also supplied from the production from Yugoslavia because
4 we sent our vehicles, we sent our vehicles to Cacak and Kragujevac. I
5 don't know which other places because there was another officer who was in
6 charge for that, and of course, that was ordered by the Ministry of
7 Defence. And I know that we were receiving invoices for the -- for the
8 certain things that should be authorised by us in the base because we had
9 to certify that we really received it, otherwise that could be paid." Is
10 this -- apart from the language, perhaps not always been very clear, but
11 the main part is that you also received ammunition produced in Yugoslavia
12 and that invoices were sent for that. Is that reflecting what you said at
13 that time and is there any comment that you would like to make on that?
14 A. I would just like to say that we didn't receive it, but we bought
15 it. Perhaps the translation is not correct. We obtained this through the
16 Ministry of Defence. And when we received this ammunition, then it was
17 necessary to compile a document which then had to be certified so that the
18 Ministry of Defence could make the necessary payment.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I did understand that this was delivery upon
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President I don't require that the questions and
22 answers in relation to that issue be read except for one sentence and it
23 is convenient for you perhaps I would read it out to save time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. IERACE: This appears about two-thirds of the way down the
1 page, halfway through an answer purportedly given by the witness.
2 "Before I left for the" --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.
4 This will be the third time that we will be returning to the -- this
5 issue. I think that the Prosecution had the time to do this. It has
6 taken more time to ask questions about this again, and I really don't
7 think that this is acceptable.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is that that part was not reviewed by the
9 witness, that was the main problem, why we didn't put it.
10 Mr. Ierace, what line --
11 MR. IERACE: It is the line that begins with the word "before" in
12 the paragraph that begins with the words "mainly that was the ammunition."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I will read the whole paragraph to the witness.
14 There is another paragraph.
15 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: When you were asked to quantify the ammunition bought
17 from Yugoslavia, your answer reads upon the question "can you quantify it
18 in tons or another measure?" Your answer was: "Mainly that was the
19 ammunition for the -- for the infantry weapons. As far as I know, mostly
20 for the 7.62 automatic rifle, and anti-aircraft cannons, 20 millimetres,
21 that ammunition as well. That was before when I -- before I left for the
22 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, the period between July and September 1994.
23 Until before this period as far as I know ammunition was not supplied from
24 other sources."
25 Does that reflect your words?
1 A. Yes, it does.
2 JUDGE ORIE: In the very final part of your statement when the
3 investigators told you that this would conclude the interview, you were
4 asked whether you would like to add anything, and I read part of what you
5 then added.
6 You said: "Because the artillery weaponry that was taken out so
7 to say on the Serb side was not taken out with a purpose to destroy
8 Sarajevo. It was actually taken out to prevent the other side to get into
9 possession of that, and it was used to protect everybody who was in
10 possession of that. And for sure there was a lot of cases of discipline
11 violations like it is in that kind of war."
12 Does this reflect your words?
13 A. Perhaps the order of the sentence or something like that, that's
14 what it says in English. You could say that that is how it was, roughly
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you would. Thank you for these answers. Is
17 there any further clarifications sought? If not, then I again would like
18 to thank you for coming to The Hague. We all know it is a far distance
19 and not only for answering the questions both of the parties and of Bench,
20 but also for doing a lot of homework yesterday. The review of your
21 statement took you a lot of time as the Chamber noticed. Thank you very
22 much for that and I wish you a safe trip home again.
23 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ORIE: And could you perhaps please escort the next witness
3 in the courtroom as well. We will attribute to the documents marked by
4 the witness a provisional number, so that even at a later stage we have to
5 decide on the admission of the whole lot of documents and tapes, that at
6 least we have numbered these transcripts already.
7 Madam Registrar, that would be?
8 THE REGISTRAR: The number for the English would be P3766A; and
9 the B/C/S P3766.1A.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would then be the provisional numbering
11 for the transcript as they have been marked by the witness. No decision
12 yet has been taken as to the admission into evidence.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 WITNESS: WITNESS DP2 [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but it
18 should be clear that the Defence has an objection against this type of
19 procedure and we will explain, if necessary, what it is when the
20 Prosecution files these new documents.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's specifically the reason why we said that
22 this was a provisional number given to these documents. The Defence
23 may --
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is one other exhibit from the
25 previous witness, and that was the document shown by me to the witness
1 during cross-examination.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can deal with that, but I would rather first
3 try to finish with the witness and I noticed that there is still one
4 document to be --
5 THE REGISTRAR: Two documents, actually, the pseudonym sheet as
7 JUDGE ORIE: The pseudonym sheet as well. We will not forget
8 that. Is the Defence ready to continue the examination --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day.
12 A. Good day.
13 Q. Witness, when your examination was interrupted we stopped, I
14 think, at the question of the Jewish cemetery, did you remember that; yes
15 or no?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that you told us that you yourself had
18 dug trenches along the Jewish cemetery; yes or no?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Witness --
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. The testimony was
22 that he dug trenches below the Jewish cemetery, in fact he gave the term
23 "at the transit road."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it is of importance to be very precise
25 in quoting to the witness what he says.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I agree,
2 but along that could be -- along in two directions. Very well. To save
3 time, Mr. President --
4 Q. Could you tell us exactly where you dug trenches in the direction
5 of the Jewish cemetery?
6 A. On the Muslim side by the Jewish cemetery, that is where I dug
8 Q. Very well. Witness, we were talking about trenches. Were there
9 any other military -- was there any other kind of military work that was
10 carried out in the surroundings of the Jewish cemetery; yes or no?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what kind of military work was
14 A. Well, the people who were digging there were involved in preparing
15 facilities for the Muslim Army. These were the trenches in which they
16 would keep weapons. So we dug into the depth and we made certain forms of
17 cover so that they could be protected from bad weather conditions.
18 Q. Thank you. Was there any other kind of work carried out, apart
19 from these open trenches; yes or no?
20 A. Yes. If I could just add something: Each building that had been
21 destroyed, there were weapons on each building that had been destroyed
22 directed towards Grbavica --
23 Q. I will interrupt you there. I am not -- I am only talking about
24 the so-called Jewish cemetery area.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, I would like to, as you did not
1 confront the witness with the literal text as I invited you to do.
2 Yesterday you testified, Mr. DP2, and I will read your testimony
3 literally. Upon the question: "Witness, could you tell us the names of
4 the places where you dug?"
5 Your answer was: "Yes, I dug on the Muslim side of the Jewish
6 cemetery below the transit road."
7 Is that -- that's the answer you gave yesterday. Is that a
8 correct answer?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that was by the Jewish cemetery
12 itself, and I can say that we didn't only dig those trenches, but we also
13 dug tunnels in the direction of the Jewish cemetery, a tunnel that the
14 Muslim soldiers used to get to the following houses, to the cellars of
15 those houses and I know that they dug trenches up until the chapel of the
16 Jewish cemetery, and this was done usually at night.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Witness, you mentioned tunnels that had been dug, it seems in the
20 direction of houses and what we call the chapel here. How did you obtain
21 this information? What is the basis for your knowledge, et cetera?
22 A. Before digging, they would ask for volunteers to dig in that
23 tunnel. These volunteers had to have boots because there was a lot of
24 water in there. I really didn't volunteer at any time, and I didn't dig
25 in the tunnel, but I do know that there were people who did dig there.
1 Q. Witness, did you see these volunteers either digging tunnels or
2 coming out once they had accomplished their work?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. Did you speak to any people who might have been involved in
5 digging this tunnel?
6 A. Yes, I did. They said it was hard work, that digging was hard, so
7 it was necessary to have special equipment to do this digging and as I
8 said, I didn't have such equipment.
9 Q. How do you know that this tunnel went in the direction of the
10 chapel, which is what you said?
11 A. Well, I know that because the soldiers that we spoke to told me
12 that a tunnel was being dug in the direction or rather up to the chapel,
13 and that soon they would reach the chapel and it would be possible to
14 observe Grbavica with greater ease.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the
17 assistance of the usher, we would like to provide -- we would like to show
18 a couple of maps.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In order to be better
21 prepared, Mr. President, bearing in mind the various factors, when will we
22 have the next break?
23 JUDGE ORIE: I expect to have the next break at a quarter to 2.00,
24 and just to inform the parties that I tried to arrange to continue at
25 approximately 4.00, after another court session will be finished. After
1 this other case will - which is a Status Conference - will have been
2 finished, then we -- it will be half an hour break and then we will
3 continue in courtroom I. I asked, as you are aware of, to see whether
4 there would be a possibility for you to confer with General Galic in this
5 same court building. We have not a final answer to that yet. So I expect
6 that we will stop at a quarter to 2.00. And I have one additional
7 question so that we get -- is it just a matter of the laptop to be brought
8 with you when conferring with the --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The only thing that I would
10 like to have is to show everything to General Galic so that he can work
11 for the end of the year, by the end of the year and organise his defence.
12 Tomorrow that will be impossible. If we can do it later on in the
13 courtroom, that would be perfect.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We are not in control of what is brought in or not.
15 If you need your laptop during the conversation, that's clear, we could
16 see then whether this is allowed. If you would leave anything for
17 General Galic, there might be -- in order to take with him to the
18 Detention Unit, then, of course -- let me just confer.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: A conference in the courtroom is not possible. I
21 don't know whether -- because the courtroom is -- all the courtrooms are
22 used this afternoon, that's also why we had some difficulties in
23 scheduling. But if it is just the laptop you want to bring during the
24 conference, that would be -- permission will then be asked for that.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was another problem I was
2 speaking about, but thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Witness, you had some time to look at this map. Do you recognise
4 it; yes or no?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Thank you. Would you be able to get ahold of a black pen, please.
7 And to draw accurately the locations where you were forced to dig these
9 A. Yes. Here it is here from Unioninvest on the map, alongside the
10 Jewish cemetery towards up here, that was the location of digging the
11 trenches in this area. The second location I said that was on
12 Mount Trebevic on a hill. It is approximately this location here. The
13 Serbian Army was here on the road and we dug 50 metres below there.
14 That's the second location. The third location is Faletici, this way, and
15 north-east of Sarajevo, along the surface of the Borije hill, or I should
16 say, Mountain Borije. And it goes just off the map here. So these were
17 the locations of the trench digging during the war.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the
19 witness indicated when he went to the north-east of the map, that the line
20 would theoretically continue outside of the map for approximately the same
21 distance in the direction of south-west off the map.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you, Witness. You just drew these four sites, so to speak,
25 and could you tell us, but please don't mark anything yet, whether you
1 were able to see, could you locate the chapel?
2 A. The chapel would be --
3 JUDGE ORIE: So just point at it. Perhaps you could give the
4 pointer to the --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is there a pointer that the
6 witness could use? Very well.
7 Q. We will come back to that, thank you.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I am not
9 indicating anything because the pointer is too thick. We will come back
10 to that.
11 Q. Witness, in the trenches that you've indicated, that you have
12 marked, were you in a position to see active troops; yes or no?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Just a moment. To the extent that you managed to see
15 these troops, did you manage to see their weapons?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us which weapons did you observe?
18 A. Automatic weapons, Kalashnikovs, machine-guns. On two locations I
19 saw the so-called TG machine-guns, they were called the sowers of death.
20 I saw grenades or shells of different calibres and different dimensions.
21 And ordinary rifles. That would be all I saw on the lines.
22 Q. Thank you. Each of the defenders of the soldiers that you saw,
23 were they all armed; yes or no?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you see -- and I am not speaking about
1 light weapons, I am now speaking about heavy weapons -- did you see other
2 heavy weapons?
3 A. On the lines, no.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may point out, if I may
5 interrupt, there is no reference to the time period as to whether this
6 falls within the indictment period or not.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that the questions are about the
8 period when the witness was digging trenches, and I think there is a time
9 period known.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, unless you would disagree with me, but I think
12 the witness has stated when he first was rounded up and on a more regular
13 basis -- but if it's not clear enough, then you could, of course, during
14 cross-examination clarify the issue.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, in fact. Yes, that was
16 alternate rhythm, and we are speaking about the relevant period.
17 Q. Witness, do you know what is a mortar?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you see any during the conflict?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Very well. Can you tell us where were you able to see such
23 A. I saw mortars --
24 Q. Don't, please, put the pen down, please. Thank you.
25 A. I saw mortars in the town.
1 Q. Very well. And on the lines?
2 A. Not on the lines.
3 Q. Very well. When we are speaking about mortars, what were the
4 mortars that you saw? Were they all the same?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Very well. When we are speaking about the type of transport for
7 the mortars, Witness, was there a difference, were some of these mortars,
8 could they be characterised by a particular means of transport?
9 A. Yes. In Sarajevo, mortar and anti-aircraft machine-gun were on
10 some kind of a car, and these were those vehicles, they were mobile, and
11 from there fire was opened from the streets towards our positions.
12 Q. Thank you, Witness, in the English transcript --
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I am sorry to interrupt, but it
14 is not clear from the transcript as to which period the witness is
15 referring to with regard to the digging of trenches. In fact, there is
16 reference to beginning of the war in April and May, we were rounded up,
17 and he goes on to say, but he does not --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then perhaps we could clarify for the -- you
19 told us when you were digging trenches, until when did this last? I mean,
20 when did you stop being involved in digging trenches?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stopped digging the trenches on
22 the 8th of June 1994.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's when you left Sarajevo, isn't it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
25 JUDGE ORIE: When you are talking about mortars, you are referring
1 to this whole period as well, so on from the beginning of the conflict
2 until you left Sarajevo?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I also think
6 that our period this morning is finished. I wanted to ask the witness to
7 point something on the map, but that may be for this afternoon, later this
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps just
11 one question to round this off. Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, in the transcript when you gave the answer to my very
13 last question, you mentioned a car, you mentioned an automobile. Thank
14 you. Were you thinking of an automobile, a car, or some other vehicle?
15 A. It is a freight vehicle about 3 tons, we call it a van, a Kombi
16 [phoen], a van. And this van, not just on one van, but on several vans
17 there was a platform, a flatbed, the back, and as I said, there would be a
18 mortar and a machine-gun and these vehicles would go from one street to
19 the next and they would be firing on the Serb side.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think it is a good moment to
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn. I will make a few remarks.
23 The first one is that I did not see reflected in the transcript this
24 morning, and it might have been out of the modesty, that the Chamber
25 appreciated very much the work of the transcribers. So I hope it will now
1 be in the transcript. Apart from that, arrangements are being prepared,
2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to have an opportunity to meet with General Galic
3 between 2 and 4.00 in a room where you are allowed to bring your laptop
4 in. I apologise, General Galic, for you, because it is a relatively long
5 day and I know that this is asking a lot of you. I hope that you will
6 have understanding that we would like to given the possibility for the
7 witnesses to return and not to be forced to come back again.
8 The schedule is that we in courtroom I at 3.00, a Status
9 Conference starts. I take it that the Status Conference might take at
10 least three quarters of an hour. We would then need half an hour break so
11 that it will take us to 4.15. I cannot guarantee that we can start at
12 4.15, it might be later, but I would like to ask the parties to be ready
13 at 4.15 to resume, and you, Mr. DP2, in order to make it possible for you
14 to return home and not to have to come back again, we scheduled an
15 additional hearing this afternoon so we hope to see you back at a quarter
16 past 4.00. We will adjourn presumably until quarter past 4.00 or at a
17 later time in Courtroom I.
18 --- Recess taken at 1.47 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.47 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Since we are in a different courtroom, I'd like to
21 ask Madam Registrar to call the case again, although we have been sitting
22 this morning.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
24 Stanislav Galic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
1 I'm glad to see that not only the parties and the witness, but
2 also those who without whom we could not do our work are present and are
3 assisting us.
4 Madam usher, could you please escort the witness DP2 into the
6 The laptops are not working at this very moment.
7 Madam usher, I think the curtains could be pulled up again.
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Now, to continue with where we left off, what we need is to have
11 the same map placed on the ELMO that we had before at just before the
12 break of our hearing this morning.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Madam.
14 Q. Witness, you will remember that at the end of the previous
15 hearing --
16 A. I have no interpretation.
17 Q. You have no interpretation?
18 A. I don't have the right interpretation in the language I
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there no interpretation at this moment? Could we
21 see whether we are on the right channel, number 6?
22 You now can hear us in a language you understand? Please
23 proceed --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear it now. I can hear
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 Q. Good afternoon again, Witness. You will remember that when we
3 broke off this morning, you were telling us about the existence of
4 mortars. You do remember, that don't you?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Thank you. You spoke to us about these mortars that were mounted
7 on what you called combis or vans. Do you remember that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. How come do you know this? Have you seen it yourself with your
10 own eyes, these vans, these combis, first question?
11 A. First of all, Your Honour, I'd like to thank you for the time that
12 you have made available for my testimony.
13 Q. Can you answer the question now, please.
14 A. And the answer to your question is that yes, I have seen it with
15 my own eyes. And not just me, any citizen of Sarajevo could have seen it
16 who wanted to see it, who wanted to look at it.
17 Q. I'm going to interrupt you here. Did you see one such van, one
18 such small lorry or more than one, several?
19 A. On every occasion that I saw them, I saw one of those. But there
20 were two types. One would be a lorry from which there would be an
21 anti-tank machine-gun that would fire from one of them. And then there
22 would be a different type which would have a mortar that would be firing.
23 Q. Thank you. How many people were there as crew?
24 A. On the van from which anti-tank machine-gun was fired, there would
25 be just one person. And on the other type, there would be three crew
2 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to ask a question that could be relevant
3 for both types of lorries. These crew members, were they dressed in
4 uniforms, in civilian clothes, how were they dressed?
5 A. They were dressed in camouflage uniforms.
6 Q. Thank you very much. We're now going to go on to other mortars,
7 the ones that I would call fixed mortars. Have you ever seen in Sarajevo
8 mortars that seem to be established at fixed points inside the city? Yes
9 or no.
10 A. No.
11 Q. For the Serb translation, for the -- not for the lines, for the
12 city. So the fixed locations inside the city.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So could you have a look at the map which is to your left. And
15 we're using a black pen. Could it please be checked, Madam, if it is a
16 black pen. Could you indicate any such sights that you can remember.
17 A. Can I just clarify something else in relation to these mortars,
19 Q. Yes, please do.
20 A. I think it is important. On every occasion, these mortars would
21 appear in certain streets. In those circumstances where it was for people
22 who were entering the city for various reasons, to show to these people a
23 specific state of war, situation of war. What I mean to say is that we
24 all knew inside the city that whenever there was parliamentarians from
25 different states, from different countries, whether they were government
1 representatives, journalists, reporters, cameramen, cultural workers, we
2 would know that in the next day or in the days that would follow, there
3 would be a mortar which would fire and provoke the Serb side in order to
4 respond in fire, to return fire, so that these people could experience
5 Sarajevo at war. And this is the absolute truth. And this is exclusively
6 then that these mortars were used, were fired.
7 Q. Thank you for these clarifications. But what I wanted is if you
8 could indicate for us, if you can, the locations from which you saw
9 mortars fired.
10 A. Below the roundabout road, now it's the Street of Young Muslims,
11 here in this location, I saw in one garden six mortars.
12 Q. Very well. Could you please place a cross, a small cross, at this
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And next to it, could you please put number 1.
16 A. [Marks]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please zoom in. It's difficult to look at
18 it on the... But please, on where the witness marked and not on another
19 place. Please a bit more upwards.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now I can see it.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if the witness is asked to
23 indicate the time period during which he saw these mortars at these
24 particular positions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the witness could do so. May I ask you,
1 Mr. DP2, Mr. DP2, whenever your answer is about a period which is not
2 between September 1992 and the date you left Sarajevo, would you please
3 indicate if it would be earlier.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything that I am saying, it
5 relates to the time when I was in Sarajevo until the 9th of June, 1994.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
7 Mr. President.
8 Q. Witness, in relation to this location, you told us about a garden
9 next to this site. Were there monuments, one, or more monuments that may
10 have had a historical or cultural or religious-type monuments?
11 A. You mean where the mortars were placed?
12 Q. At location 1.
13 A. No, it was a garden, garden of a private house.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you now indicate to us other locations where, to
15 your knowledge, you saw such weapons placed. Could you place a cross and
16 next to it, number 2.
17 A. That is the position quite close to the Markale market opposite
18 the academy of music in front of a kindergarten.
19 Q. What did you see there?
20 A. In front of the kindergarten, I saw two mortars placed.
21 Q. Can you describe these mortars, Witness.
22 A. A long barrel. It has a fixed base, a platform. On the side,
23 there are two legs. And on the side, there is an instrument for
24 correcting the level, for adjusting the level.
25 Q. Did you see any ammunition together with the batteries?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you. The crew serving the batteries --
3 A. No, no. I saw that passing by. So it could have been just 15
5 Q. Wait for my question, please. The crews serving the batteries,
6 how were they dressed? Civilian clothes --
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the witness has not referred to
8 crews in these particular questions. The Defence counsel is leading the
9 witness here.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I wonder --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You interrupted when -- Mr. DP2, when you said you
13 saw it only passing by, what actually did you mean? You talked about 15
14 seconds. What would you see during this 15 seconds?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just saw two mortars and no one
16 else. There was no one else around these two mortars at that moment when
17 I was passing by.
18 JUDGE ORIE: These were fixed mortars in a fixed position, or were
19 they mounted on vans?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they were fixed on the
21 ground. I said in front of the kindergarten, and now in the place of that
22 kindergarten, it's the Holy See embassy now. It used to be a
23 kindergarten. But that's where it was on the ground. They were fixed to
24 the ground.
25 JUDGE ORIE: There was no one near to that, no mortar crew,
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Just alone?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
8 Q. Witness, could you please continue to do the same.
9 A. I also saw two mortars in front of the museum of the Winter
10 Olympic Games. And that was the position --
11 Q. And if you can put a cross and a number 3 next to it.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Thank you. Were these mortars of the same type, the same kind of
15 A. Yes, the same mortars, and also there were no crews around.
16 Q. Thank you. Could you please continue with the same exercise.
17 A. Furthermore, I saw mortars in the area of the command of the
18 10th Mountain Brigade led by Commander Caco. When I was a hostage I saw
19 that in that area of a very large compound where there were weapons. I
20 saw several mortars there. I don't know whether there were more than two.
21 I don't know how many there were.
22 Q. Very well. Can you tell us where the location is with a cross and
23 place number 4 next to it, please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And perhaps the picture could
1 be adjusted.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I couldn't see where the witness was marking
3 because... Yes.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Are there any other locations where you saw such batteries?
6 A. No more.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I will now change the subject. You
8 have told us under number 4 that there was the headquarters of Caco. What
9 can you tell us on the subject of the weapons that you were perhaps able
10 to see there, and not only heavy weapons but other weapons including
12 A. In that very large room, apart from the mortars, I saw many
13 grenades or shells of different sizes, different calibres. I saw dozens
14 and dozens of handguns. I saw Kalashnikov automatic rifles. I saw
15 ordinary rifles. And I think that would be all.
16 Q. Can you tell us to which period does this relate to, your
17 observations relate to?
18 A. I saw that precisely on the 28th of October 1993, during the clash
19 or the showdown between the police and Caco that night when Caco was
20 killed. I was a hostage then, and I told you about this already.
21 Q. Thank you. The weapons that you were able to see, did they seem
22 to be old to you, ancient, or rather, new weapons, recent weapons?
23 A. I was not in the army. I wouldn't know.
24 Q. Thank you. Witness, now, I'd like us to change the subject. And
25 could we examine some other matters as well. First of all, have you ever
1 heard that there was firing in the city, that is, from the city, was there
2 firing from heavy weapons from inside the city? And I include mortars in
3 the heavy weapons.
4 A. Yes. But not much.
5 Q. Please proceed.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. What I said is that I heard
14 that, and since I live on the fourth floor, and from my windows I can see
15 the panorama of Sarajevo, I was following the range. And this shell, when
16 it was fired, landed on the police centre, that is, on the special police
17 centre of Dragan Vikic. I didn't hear, but a friend who lives near these
18 two checkpoints, near these two locations, these two sites of mortars, he
19 told me that these two places were hit from the Serb side, and that these
20 four mortars were destroyed. That is, in front of the kindergarten and in
21 front of the Museum of the Winter Olympic Games.
22 I can also give the name of my friend and professor. If it is
23 necessary, I can give his name in writing because he lives nearby.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Possibly it may happen that we will go into closed session. It is
1 possible, but we may do that now.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to go in closed session.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise. We could go into private session.
5 I think it would be enough, because then the words spoken will not go to
6 the outside world.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could we turn into private session.
9 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Witness, you spoke to us about a school, a children's school. Can
2 you tell us the name of that school.
3 A. No, that was a kindergarten, a kindergarten. I don't know what
4 the name was.
5 Q. Perhaps the name of the street?
6 A. It's at the beginning of Logavina Street.
7 Q. Thank you. Since you're speaking of the schools now, what can you
8 tell us about what happened to the schools during the war to your
9 knowledge, personal knowledge?
10 A. I know that primary schools, secondary schools, kindergartens, and
11 faculties were used as military facilities. Above Caco's headquarters,
12 200 metres from there, and his headquarters was just 5 metres above former
13 military command of General Kukanjac. And during the war, that was the
14 Egyptian SFOR forces. So his command was some 10 metres above. I don't
15 know -- it was a school. I don't know what the name was, but it was a
16 primary school, and there were kitchens there. And also soldiers' rooms.
17 And behind that school, I went to dig the trenches. So every morning, we
18 would have breakfast there, and I know that because I was there every
20 Q. Witness, since your answer was very long, could I please summarise
21 your testimony in the following way: You say that you saw several schools
22 that were reused by the army in order to provide accommodation for the
23 troops, location -- premises of the troops. Is that how I should
24 understand your testimony?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, now, can we go back to the questions of
2 shelling, shellings, mortar shellings. To your knowledge, were there any
3 particular circumstances that surrounded the beginning of shelling in
4 Sarajevo, the shelling operations that were coming from the city itself?
5 A. Do you mean mortar provocation?
6 Q. I don't know. It's up to you to say that.
7 A. I said that there were lorries with anti-aircraft machine-guns.
8 And -- I apologise. With mortars mounted on the van. And I said that
9 they had to do with provocations in the sense that they would go out into
10 the street and they would fire, they would always fire --
11 Q. I will interrupt you there. When there were firing operations or
12 when there were going to be, when there was going to be shelling, I'm
13 talking about shelling, were any protective measures taken in the town in
14 order to protect the population?
15 A. Yes. It's clearer to me now. There were no measures taken to
16 inform and protect the population. I know very well that the population
17 included women, went out into the street very often, and they prevented
18 mortars from firing from their streets because a consequence would always
19 be that a window would be shattered or a roof would be destroyed. So
20 citizens protested. They didn't want these mortars to be used because
21 they didn't want return -- they didn't want shelling in response to cause
22 damage. And this didn't happen only on one occasion; this happened quite
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, I would like to go back to another object, what we call
2 the old brewery, Pivara. Are you familiar with this place?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us where this place is.
5 A. I can point it out.
6 Q. Tell us, tell us. Don't show it.
7 A. On Bistrik.
8 Q. Thank you. What can you tell us about this place at the time that
9 you experienced the war?
10 A. The brewery was a place whether the citizens of Sarajevo were
11 provided with water, supplied with water. There was a long pipe that been
12 installed in front of the brewery, and there were about 20 taps from which
13 the citizens could collect water. They went there to collect water. And
14 one street further up, we always waited in a queue for bread.
15 Q. Thank you. But do you know whether what we call the brewery had
16 certain installations within it?
17 A. Well, they said there were rumours according to which certain
18 weapons were being produced in the brewery. Similarly, they said that
19 that was being done in the school at the other end the town that is called
20 Vaso Miskin Crni.
21 Q. Very well. Could you now please take the same black felt tip that
22 you used a minute ago and mark where this last place that you mentioned is
23 located on the map. If the technical booth could focus on the image.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, next to that cross -- just a minute. Just a
1 minute, please. I see that we have two maps. No. Mark that place with
2 the number 5, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you tell us what was produced in this
5 technical factory? But first of all, where did you obtain the information
6 that you have about it.
7 A. As I said, there were rumours. This is something I was told.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The witness didn't refer to a technical
12 JUDGE ORIE: The answer of the witness that he knows about it on
13 the basis of rumours. This asks for speculation, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So
14 please proceed, but not on the basis of rumours.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
16 There's just one question that I would nevertheless like to ask, and it's
17 whether these rumours were known at the time of the war. May I have your
18 permission to do so.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as such -- I mean, they are not any less
20 rumours. But if you want to know whether the witness was aware of the
21 rumours that exist during the war or after the war, it's fine. But it
22 doesn't take away the character of rumours to the basis of his knowledge.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly, Mr. President. But
24 many rumours make more noise than just one rumour.
25 Q. Witness, could you answer this question, please. When did you
1 become aware of what you have called rumours?
2 A. Well, I think I found out about this in 1993. But at this point I
3 would like to say that what I saw confirmed these rumours, what I saw when
4 I was returning from digging trenches. Down at Miljacka, they were
5 experimenting with the results of the production of weapons in Sarajevo,
6 they were trying this out. I then saw a sort of platform, and there was
7 some kind of a machine-gun on that platform. There were two soldiers in
8 camouflage uniform, and they put a rifle-launched grenade at the front.
9 They removed -- they moved back. They pulled a wire that been connected
10 to it. It exploded. It flew away very far, and they congratulated each
11 other. So the hypothesis according to which there really was production
12 in Sarajevo is correct. It's true.
13 Q. Witness, can I ask you how you know that these people who were
14 trying out shots and that they weren't firing at a real target?
15 A. That was a zone where the BH Army was active, and the Serbian
16 positions were far away. And the place where the shell was fired and the
17 place where it fell, well, the distance between these two places was about
18 300 metres. So not more than that. And this was all in the Miljacka
19 canyon. This was just a test.
20 Q. Witness, could you say what the name was, the name that we see in
21 the transcript, the name of this place. Could you tell us whether you can
22 see it on the map? Witness, can it be seen on the map?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you mark it with a cross and a circle, please.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us when you saw that?
2 A. Well, I couldn't say exactly, but it was in the autumn of 1993.
3 Either in September or October.
4 Q. Thank you. On how many occasions?
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I interrupt, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the purpose of the transcript, the witness
8 has marked -- there's a cross and placed the figure 6 there. That's not
9 in the transcript.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the figure 6 is added by the witness.
11 Before continuing, I would wonder, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and I'm also
12 addressing the Prosecution, the Chamber would very much appreciate if it
13 could finish with this witness today. It would otherwise be a very long
14 interruption for just a very short time. How much time do you think you
15 would still need?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not much more time,
17 Mr. President. I'll confer.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Half an hour at the most.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That means that we could not finish today, because
21 then it would be 5 minutes to 6.00. We would then have a break of 20
22 minutes, and three quarters of an hour would be left for the Prosecution
23 which would not be fair.
24 How much time does the Prosecution think it would need for the
25 cross-examination of this witness?
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, several very significant issues
2 have been raised through this witness. And most of it has not been
3 covered in the 65 ter summary, in addition to which those are questions
4 which have not been put to the Prosecution witnesses in breach of Rule
5 90(h). Especially with regard to the question of mortars, mobile mortars,
6 and there are certain issues that really go to the root of the Prosecution
7 evidence, so we would require to perhaps investigate into these. And
8 therefore, at this stage, Mr. President, I cannot guarantee that I could
9 finish within the time period left tonight.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confer.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in view of many circumstances,
13 also in view of the 65 ter summary, the Chamber thinks that you should
14 finish in -- within 15 minutes. We'll then see how far we come with the
15 Prosecution, and we'll see after cross-examination has started. And at
16 7.00, because we'll not go one single minute beyond 7.00. We'll see
17 whether there's any need, necessity, to recall the witness at a later
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
20 would just like to make an observation that we have asked three hours for
21 this witness. We've only used up one and a half hours, and we lost much
22 time this morning that were not our fault.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Half hour,
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. But apart from that, I was also referring to the 65
25 ter summary. You went on many subjects that are not clearly, as far as I
1 can see, in the 65 ter summary. Please proceed.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
3 Q. Witness, bearing in mind the time constraints, could you please
4 answer with a yes or no as much as you can. Do you know about the
5 existence of other military targets in the city of Sarajevo?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you please briefly tell us which other targets
8 that could be described as military you're thinking of?
9 A. Many schools, kindergartens where troops were stationed, troops of
10 the BH Army of the 1st Corps. The 1st Mountain, 10th Brigade. 10th
11 Mountain and many other locations where troops were stationed. So I would
12 that following the mobilisation in May 1992, the entire Sarajevo was
13 divided into people who were troops and people who were working for the
15 Q. Thank you very much. I'm going to ask you a question. Tanks that
16 were also military targets, can you tell us whether there were one or more
17 tanks in the city of Sarajevo? Yes or no.
18 A. Yes. Yes, I have seen some tanks.
19 Q. Thank you. How many tanks have you seen?
20 A. Below the tunnel?
21 Q. How many have you seen?
22 A. Three or four.
23 Q. Where?
24 A. Below the tunnel of Ciglane and near the engineering school,
25 engineering faculty and architecture faculty.
1 Q. Thank you. What else was near what we call the technical faculty?
2 Which other establishment was near? Where is the technical faculty,
4 A. On the way to the Kosevo stadium towards the faculty --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Perhaps the witness could be required to state
7 when the tanks were observed by him.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I instructed the witness to tell us if it was outside
9 the period September 1992 until the moment when he left Sarajevo. So may
10 I take that you saw these tanks within this time period I gave to you
11 before? Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really only speaking about the
13 time that I was in Sarajevo until the 9th of June, 1994. I am speaking
14 about what I saw.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but also, please keep in mind that we are not
16 talking about the period on from the beginning of the conflict, but that
17 we are specifically interested to know from September 1992 until, as you
18 said, the moment when you left Sarajevo.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President,
21 just one thing, that has how been two or three times we have had the same
22 objection regarding the time frame. I think the witness has understood.
23 I think we have all understood, and I would like to ask the Prosecution
24 not to interrupt. Perhaps for other things, but not for this.
25 Q. Where is the faculty that you have called--
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the reason for this is the
3 Prosecution is entitled to more information than that. The period the
4 witness is referring to is from the beginning of 1992 to June 1994 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: You can ask the witness in cross-examination.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, where was the technical faculty?
10 A. It's not a technical faculty. It's an engineering faculty. It is
11 located opposite the tunnel called Ciglane. That's where there's a
12 market, and opposite there's an Orthodox and Catholic cemetery.
13 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd like you to place some crosses, that is,
14 from number 7 onwards, in relation to the locations that you have just
15 mentioned, that is, the faculty, the Ciglane tunnel, and I believe the
16 third location being...
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, earlier, you spoke of the brewery. Do you
19 know if this brewery was ever systematically shelled?
20 A. No.
21 Q. When you say "no," you say that it has not been shelled? Is that
22 what you're saying?
23 A. This part of Bistrik was never shelled.
24 Q. Thank you. Witness, now I'd like us to go back to the question of
25 the trenches. You dug trenches. Do you know how many successive lines
1 did the BH Army have, if that was the case?
2 A. The strategy of the Army of BH was to have -- the closer they were
3 to the Serbs the better it was to attack. In Borije we had even three
4 lines of trenches, and in some cases there were two lines.
5 Q. Do you know how were these trenches connected to each other, if
6 that was the case?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How?
9 A. They were connected to go from one trench to another. There were
10 these channels that were connecting the trenches.
11 Q. Very well. Witness, do you know what the transporter is?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you have an opportunity of seeing any in the city of Sarajevo?
14 Yes or no.
15 A. I had the opportunity of seeing an improvised transporter that was
16 made of a lorry. It was made of a lorry, and it had a very small window
17 to see through, if that was a transporter.
18 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Can you tell us briefly what
19 happened, to your knowledge, in February 1992? We are speaking about the
20 period before the official breakout of the war. What were you able to see
21 very briefly in Sarajevo during this period in February 1992? And after
22 that, I'll only have one more question, I think.
23 A. Where I lived in February and March, there were lively activities
24 to do with the barracks of the JNA. Snipers went up the building, to my
25 building. They were going up on the roof and around. I saw a machine-gun
1 nest. There were Green Berets. And they were observing the troops of the
2 JNA. On the road going towards my work of employment, to Hidrogradnja,
3 which is a building of my company, from that building, I saw people in
4 camouflage uniforms leaving that building with Zoljas, armed with Zoljas.
5 Q. You're speaking about the uniforms. No, I'll withdraw that.
6 What was the period that you saw this, when you saw this?
7 A. That was in February, March -- before the war broke out.
8 Q. Which year?
9 A. 1992.
10 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Were you ever in a bread line, in a
11 bread queue, what was known as a bread queue?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were you ever subjected to shelling while you were doing this?
14 A. No, never. There was only in Vaso Miskin Crni Street, I was there
15 in the bread queue. Although that is a different subject and I could go
16 on and speak about it.
17 Q. Why is that a separate subject? Can you tell us very briefly?
18 A. Because Vaso Miskin Street was really a turning point in the war,
19 and the relationship in the war, because the relationship of the sides in
20 the war because many civilians died there and because the Serb side was
21 blamed for causing the massacre. And there could be evidence that could
22 be brought that this wasn't the case, that this wasn't like it seemed,
23 since I was a participant in the events.
24 Q. What is your personal feeling? Very briefly.
25 A. It's not a feeling; it's a fact.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Previous interpretation continues]...
2 Question, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: He is inviting the witness to speculate and
5 give an opinion.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness in the beginning of his answer says
7 that he wants to answer. He was asked about feelings, to give an answer
8 about facts.
9 Could you tell us what fact you have in mind?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, before this event, throughout
11 the time we received the bread, in front of the cinema Romanija, we waited
12 for the bread in a sheltered passage, in a corridor, in a hallway. And on
13 that day, when the massacre occurred, we were taken to the street of
14 Vaso Miskin Crni Street. This street is facing the Serb positions so that
15 a shell which could possibly fall would be attributed to having come from
16 the Serb side. I have information from the 1st Mountain Brigade that this
17 was done by the Muslims, that they were shelling -- that they shelled,
18 they launched the grenade from Planika. That the person who had launched
19 the grenade was killed by a sniper, and that the sniper, marksman had been
20 killed by --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness slow down.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down. Are you telling about
23 what you heard from other persons? Is that correct?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard this from a soldier, a
25 BH Army soldier who was not -- who was in the 1st Mountain Brigade, who
1 had received the very first Golden Lily Medal from the BH Army.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know the name of that soldier?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But I'd like to have his
4 parents' names protected, and his name. It's a very delicate matter.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session for a while.
6 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE ORIE: You told us before that you had only one question
17 left. Since then I heard some three questions, and a quarter of an hour
18 is over as well, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I only wanted,
20 if I may, to ask two more questions and submit a document to the witness.
21 We were taken a little by surprise. We have the document here. It can be
22 distributed, with your leave, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If the document is ready, it could not have been such
24 a surprise. Yes, but this certainly will lead to a situation where we
25 should allow the Prosecution to recall the witness. So please proceed.
1 But try to see what we can do. Two questions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. One
2 question you indicated became three questions. These two questions are
3 really two questions and nothing else.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness, since I have only one questions I am going to put to you,
6 I have two questions to put to you and I'm going to put those questions to
8 On the basis of on your personal experience of the fighting, in
9 general terms, what were the targets shelled by the Serbian forces in
11 A. Well, basically, I can say that the response was always such that
12 when there was a provocation --
13 Q. Witness, I'm going to interrupt you. What do you know about the
14 targets that were shelled by the Serbian forces in Sarajevo? My question
15 is, as a general rule, what was the nature of these targets, if you know
16 anything about this?
17 A. I think that there was responsed to fire from Sarajevo, and
18 targeted the targets from which they were active.
19 Q. Witness, on the basis of the document that you have to the right
20 of you or in front of you, I don't know where it has been placed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could put it on the
22 ELMO. Thank you. No, we're in private session, so please take it away.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We are not in private session. We are in open
24 session, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So we need a redaction for that. And we now
25 return into closed session, perhaps that's needed for the ELMO. It's not
1 just -- no, if it's not on the ELMO, then we could deal with it in private
3 If we can do without the ELMO, then it would save us pulling down
4 the curtains and opening them again. So if private session would do, we
5 now turn into private session.
6 [Private session]
14 --- Recess taken at 5.51 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We are at this moment in open session. I don't know
20 whether you refer to the present situation in Court.
21 MR. IERACE: No, I refer to the times that we are in open session,
22 Mr. President. None of the sound is being heard elsewhere in the OTP. So
23 it's not possible for the Prosecution team to do any reasonable
24 preparation in relation to this witness's evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. IERACE: So as to enable us to properly cross-examine him.
2 JUDGE ORIE: How long did this last, Mr. Ierace?
3 MR. IERACE: Throughout this afternoon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Why were we not informed at an earlier stage? So
5 that we could have seen -- we were. I see that Madam Registrar informs me
6 that at least someone in this courtroom was aware. I was not.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- one moment.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the sound in almost all of the
11 building was normally functioning, but that in the hall as far as I
12 understand, that there was a delay of 30 minutes. But I do understand
13 that this caused you problems. My question would be, would you be ready
14 to start to cross-examine the witness?
15 MR. IERACE: We are ready to start, but we certainly won't finish
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's see how far we come. Would you please try
18 to prioritise as much as possible.
19 MR. IERACE: Yes, we prepared it that way. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I please proceed, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown the map D1897 [sic], I
25 believe, the map that was shown to the witness during
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's 1817, I take it.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President.
4 Q. Sir, you marked on this map with figure 1 a place where you claim
5 to have seen six mortars in a garden.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many times did you see these six mortars?
8 A. Well, at least five or six times. Whenever I returned from
9 digging the trenches in the Jewish cemetery by the Mladih Muslimana Street
10 to my flat. So, on several occasions.
11 Q. Could you give the precise date. And if you cannot remember the
12 date, perhaps the month and the year, when you saw these six mortars for
13 the first time.
14 A. It was in 1993. August, September, October.
15 Q. Sir, my question was the first time you saw it, so are you saying
16 it could be either August, September, or October, or are you saying that
17 you saw these mortars during this period, August, September, October 1993?
18 Is that what you're saying?
19 A. I came to this conclusion on the basis of the fact that this
20 street earlier on in 1992 -- I never went down this street before. I went
21 down to -- went down the flat part, and only in 1993 I had the courage to
22 go down that street. That's why I know about this.
23 Q. When you say you had the courage to go down there, does it mean
24 that you went down there to see these mortars or you visited that area?
25 How did you come across these mortars? Can you please explain the
1 circumstances under which you saw these mortars?
2 A. As you can see in this map, that is the shortest route to my flat.
3 I saw it by chance on the way to my flat.
4 Q. And you said before 1993, you did not have courage to go down
5 there. Does it mean that during that period, you took a different route?
6 A. Yes, this is a very wide route. It was empty, and it was very
7 open, so you really had to be courageous to go down that road. Earlier
8 on, I always took a different route.
9 Q. Sir, could you explain what you mean by "courage"? Why did you
10 require "courage" to go down there?
11 A. Perhaps courage is a term which is too strong. But if the road is
12 open in the direction of Trebevic, in the direction of all the other
13 centres, it's a lot safer to go through the houses rather than to take a
14 road which is open, which is exposed. So perhaps it's not a matter of
15 courage, but there is a risk.
16 Q. So what do you mean by risk? What type of risk would you face if
17 you did take that route where it should be open to Trebevic?
18 A. Well, it's a well-known fact that there was sniper fire in
19 Sarajevo, and to tell you the truth, I was afraid of sniper fire. And
20 perhaps of a shell that gone astray.
21 Q. So is it your position that if one took that route, you could be
22 exposed to sniper fire, and are you saying from which direction one could
23 anticipate sniper fire?
24 A. If I was fired at by a sniper in my flat I could expect the same
25 to happen there because if I may say so, I'm not a citizen of the town of
1 Sarajevo who is not well-known.
2 Q. Sir, my question was at that position which you've marked with a
3 figure 1, you said there was a threat of sniper fire, of being exposed to
4 sniper fire there. From which direction? That was my question.
5 A. From all directions. The right bank of the Miljacka, because this
6 transit road can't be seen from the Serbian positions, or it's almost
7 impossible to see it.
8 Q. Sir, I did not ask you as to what positions, whether it was open
9 to Serb positions. My question to you was as to what direction could one
10 anticipate sniper fire. Let me put it to you, sir, you stated that this
11 location was open to Trebevic. Your words were "perhaps courage is a term
12 which is too strong, but if the road is open in the direction of Trebevic,
13 in the direction rather than to take a road which is open, which is
15 Referring to Trebevic, what did you mean? Could you please
17 A. If I said "open in the direction of Trebevic" then that was a
18 mistake, and I withdraw that. I didn't say it was open in the direction
19 of Trebevic because it can barely be seen from Trebevic.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel switch off her microphone
21 while the witness is answering the question, please. There is
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon.
24 Q. Sir, are you having difficulty with that particular question in
25 trying to withdraw where you stated that the position is open to Trebevic?
1 A. No difficulties, really. As I say, it's not open in the direction
2 of Trebevic. And I said that it wasn't easy to see it from Trebevic. I
3 don't see why you are insisting on this, because you probably want me to
4 say that I was afraid of shells coming from Trebevic. But in my prior
5 testimony, I kept repeating that they shot from Trebevic mostly when the
6 Serbs were provoked. And that is when they shelled the town.
7 Q. Sir, during the period 1992 to the time you were in Sarajevo, that
8 is, June 1994, did you visit Trebevic?
9 A. No. Apart from the fact that I went from when I was taken to dig
10 trenches, but that's not Trebevic. Those are the slopes of Trebevic.
11 Q. So your position is you never went to Trebevic?
12 A. During the war? No.
13 Q. In view of that answer, sir, how do you explain your response that
14 this position where you marked as -- with figure 1 was not exposed to
15 Trebevic? You said one could not see this place from Trebevic. How do
16 you know if you never visited Trebevic?
17 A. Look, this place, number 1 is on the side of a valley, and at the
18 top, there is a house. This place can't be seen from either side, from
19 any side, unless you really come close to that place.
20 Q. So when you stated that you saw six mortars at the garden where
21 you marked with figure 1, from where did you see it? Did you see it from
22 the road?
23 A. From the road.
24 Q. And was this road used by other civilians?
25 A. Not much. At that point I didn't see anyone on the road.
1 Q. I'm not talking about at that point, sir. Was this a road which
2 was used other than yourself?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So when you used the word "the road," you saw it from the road,
5 isn't that the arterial road that goes by that location? Isn't that a
6 main road?
7 A. Yes, it's the main road. And as you see, it's not the Mladih
8 Muslimana Road. That is the transit road that was made when we had the
9 Winter Olympics. It goes around Sarajevo. It's on the route from
10 Sarajevo to Belgrade. It's the shortest route.
11 Q. That is the route one has to take if one were to go to Bistrik.
12 Isn't that the case, sir?
13 A. One of the roads at the foot of Trebevic, but there are other
14 roads that go to Bistrik. This can be seen on the map.
15 Q. And your position is that one could see these six mortars from
16 that road? That is your position?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. During the period, and you refer to the period September, October
19 1993, did you see these mortars fire?
20 A. No. I didn't see anyone by these mortars. I only saw the mortars
21 that had been mounted on that slope in front of the house.
22 Q. Is there any identifying features of this house, or do you know
23 what that house was?
24 A. That was -- it was a house upstairs, and below, in the garden,
25 there were the six mortars.
1 Q. Was that house occupied by some persons?
2 A. Didn't see anyone.
3 Q. Was it an abandoned house or --
4 A. The house was intact. Nothing was missing. But I didn't see
5 anyone in the house or outside the house either.
6 Q. Is there any particular feature about that house which could be
7 used to guide one to this particular house which could help one to
8 identify this house again? Could you perhaps describe some identifying
9 feature of this house?
10 A. A house with four walls made of bricks. But if some sort of
11 evidence is really necessary, I can photograph that place and send you the
12 photograph. That really isn't a problem.
13 Q. Sir, your testimony was that you saw two mortars fixed at the
14 kindergarten. You marked this with figure 2 on the map.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Exactly when did you see these mortars? And I'm asking you about
17 the month and the year, if you do not remember the date.
18 A. It's difficult for me to mention the day and the year, too. But I
19 could say that it was also in the winter in 1993. But this is just a
20 rough guess.
21 Q. How many times did you see these two mortars at this particular
23 A. Only on one occasion. Because there was no reason for me to move
24 around those parts of the town.
25 Q. That was a time, you said, it was just 15 seconds, you just passed
1 through this place within 15 seconds. That was the time you saw these two
3 A. That's correct. If I had to pass by a building, I think that's
4 the amount of time it took.
5 Q. Do you remember where you were going on that particular day when
6 you saw these two mortars?
7 A. I was going to see a friend whom I have mentioned here under
8 protective measures. He lives 50 metres from that kindergarten.
9 Q. Sir, are you familiar with [Realtime transcript omitted in error]
11 A. Even if I didn't have any, I obtained some during the war. I
12 wasn't in the army, but I can distinguish between an automatic rifle and a
13 rifle and a mortar and a machine-gun.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, for the
15 sake of the transcript, could one specify what is missing at line 12, page
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I used the word
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
21 Q. Is it your position, sir, that within 15 minutes -- 15 seconds, I
22 beg your pardon, you recognised two mortars positioned at the location you
23 identified with figure 2?
24 A. Less than that even.
25 Q. In your testimony, you stated that you saw mortars close to the
1 Markale market. Is that the place you indicated with figure 2?
2 A. This place is as far away from Markale as the location under
3 number 3, about 150 to 200 metres.
4 Q. Could you please indicate on the map with the pointer --
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, perhaps the map could be placed
6 on the ELMO and...
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the map may be placed on the ELMO.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
9 Q. Sir, could you please place the pointer on the exact location of
10 Markale market.
11 A. [Marks]
12 JUDGE ORIE: What pen is the witness using at this very moment? A
13 black one, yes. It should have been a blue one. When examined by the
14 Prosecution, we use a different colour.
15 The witness marks the map just below right the number 3 with a
16 circle and a cross. That was the marking made on the request of the
17 Prosecution. So it should be have been in blue.
18 Could you please circle again around the circle to add a blue
20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Markale market is in Marsala
23 Tito Street, and right next to it is the tram station that I've indicated.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
25 Q. Sir, when did you see the mortars you indicated you saw at the
1 position you marked with figure 3?
2 A. I said that this was in winter, December, January 1993. I mean,
3 that is approximately. I could be mistaken, approximately, that time. I
4 don't recall. It was a long time ago. But I did see them.
5 Q. Is it your position, sir, that you saw the two mortars at the
6 location marked with figure 2? And the two mortars you saw at the
7 location marked with figure 3 during winter 1993? Is it your position
8 that you saw mortars at both these locations during the same period?
9 A. No. Perhaps there was a pause of about 20 days.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a
11 chronological objection. When we're saying "winter 1993" we never know
12 whether it's winter 1992/1993 or winter 1993/1994. Could we make this
13 precise, and this is also valid for what the witness said earlier. He
14 spoke of December, January 1993. I'm not quite sure that everything is
16 JUDGE ORIE: If I understand your answer well, Mr. DP2, that when
17 you're talking about December, January 1993, you're talking about December
18 1992 until January 1993? Is that how I have to understand it?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that's December, January
21 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be December 1992, January 1993? Is
22 that how I have to understand this?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
1 Q. So how many times did you see the mortars at the location marked
2 with figure 3?
3 A. Also only once. Also passing by, just like when I saw the mortars
4 on the 2.
5 Q. Was that also very briefly, within 15 seconds perhaps?
6 A. Yes. Yes. While I was passing by.
7 Q. Could you describe what the location number 2 is. Is it a
8 building? Is it -- you said it's a kindergarten. What did it -- what
9 does it look like? Can you describe the topography and the area.
10 A. Before the war, it was a kindergarten, or a preschool, whatever --
11 Q. Sorry. I have to interrupt you, sir. I'm merely asking you to
12 describe that particular area, what does it look like? At number 2, is
13 there a building, are there several buildings? Is it a built up area?
14 Could you just describe that area.
15 A. The kindergarten there was there, and there was a low, one-storey
16 building. A little bit in front of that, there was a yard. And in that
17 yard were these two mortars under number 3. And there was a Museum of the
18 Winter Olympic Games that had three storeys. And in front of it, there
19 was the courtyard with the figure of a skier, and there were two mortars.
20 Q. And the yard at the kindergarten where the mortars were located,
21 is it by the side of the road?
22 A. Yes. On the right-hand side of the road. As I'm coming down
23 Bjelave on the right-hand side, if I'm going up, then it's on the
24 left-hand side. Now at this location as I said is the embassy of the Holy
25 See. That is the location. At the moment, there is no kindergarten
1 there. It's the embassy.
2 Q. What's the name of that road?
3 A. I said that's Logavina Street, but I may be mistaken. But I can
4 look it up on the map.
5 Q. That's not necessary, Witness. Witness, if I may interrupt you.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was this road used by other civilians, apart from yourself?
8 A. It's the road that is used. It's a town street. It's a public
9 road for all the citizens that need to go to Bjelave, to that part of
11 Q. Have you seen UN vehicular traffic on that road?
12 A. No. It's not a very good road. It's very, very steep, and it's
13 not good for cars. That means it's -- it can be used, but not for cars.
14 Q. So my question was not the condition of the road, as to whether
15 you've seen UN vehicular traffic. Yes or no.
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. Have you seen UN vehicular traffic in Sarajevo, during your stay
18 in Sarajevo?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And do you still remember where you saw UN vehicles in Sarajevo
21 during the time 1992 to June 1994 while you were there? Do you still
22 remember and at what locations you saw them?
23 A. Well, I think there is no part of town where I went without
24 transporters, without humanitarian aid vehicles, without UN vehicles.
25 Q. Sir, the compound of the olympic -- Winter Olympic Museum in which
1 you saw two mortars, is there a road going by that compound?
2 A. Yes, this road goes off to the left towards Markale. And by steep
3 stairs, gets to the tram track.
4 Q. Is that a public road which is used by civilians apart from
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Would you describe that as a busy road?
8 A. Yes, yes. Not a main road, not that busy. There are only two
9 very busy streets in Sarajevo. Titova Street and JNA Street. The rest
10 are not so busy.
11 Q. Do vehicles go on that road?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you seen UN vehicles passing through that road?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Sir, do you remember all the roads on which you haven't seen UN
16 vehicles passing through during your stay in Sarajevo?
17 A. During the war, like all other the citizens of Sarajevo, I didn't
18 move about town much. My location was the centre. And that other part
19 where Caco was the boss.
20 Q. Why didn't you move too much during the war while you were in
21 Sarajevo? What was the reason for the restriction of your movement?
22 A. Well, you won't believe this, but the reason was that we didn't
23 have food. So I spent more time lying down than anything else, when I
24 wasn't digging. I had two work obligations, and only when I had to go and
25 to pick some medicinal herbs in order to make medicinal teas, herbal teas,
1 I wouldn't go very much around the town. I would just go and pick these
2 herbs, and I would spend the rest at home.
3 Q. What is the distance from location marked number 2 to Markale
5 A. I said about 150 to 200 metres in my assessment. Not more than
6 that. As the crow flies, that would be the distance.
7 Q. And what was the distance between location marked number 3 to
8 Markale market?
9 A. Also I answered that. The same.
10 Q. Are there --
11 A. Possibly there is a little further away, number 2, than number 3.
12 Q. Are there any other public institutions or places for public
13 interest, markets, or public buildings near location marked 2 or 3?
14 A. Well, there is a large building of PoljoOprema where Green Berets
15 were stationed with the commander, chief of municipality of Stari Grad, a
16 man called Hadzi Bajric. Also the Picadilly restaurant --
17 Q. I'm asking for public buildings, not military buildings. I'm
18 asking for public such as markets or such places around that area. Post
19 offices, public buildings.
20 A. Academy of music. And as I said, that company PoljoOprema, and
21 down there, there are some shops.
22 Q. When you identified these locations, you yourself, without any
23 prompting, used the word "these two locations are close to Markale
24 market." What made you say that?
25 A. Nothing in particular. It's just that everyone knows about
1 Markale market. And in order for people to orientate themselves, as a
2 reference point; that's all.
3 Q. Is it your position that every aspect you identified in that area
4 you identified in reference to Markale market? Is that your position,
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question is very general
9 in relation to other facilities that the witness may have mentioned in
10 this area.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that's how the question was meant to be.
12 Do I understand you well, Ms. Mahindaratne?
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. My question was whether
14 he --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Meant to be that broad.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's not inadmissible. Please proceed.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President. The witness has not
19 responded to my question, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please respond to the question.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I believe
22 that in that part of town, there isn't anything as recognisable as
23 striking as the Markale market. That's the only reason why I mentioned
24 that these locations were close to Markale market.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President.
1 Q. Sir, you testified that you saw several mortars at the location
2 you identified with figure 4.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you said that you saw these mortars in a large room. That was
5 the testimony.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Your testimony was that this was the command of the
8 10th Mountain Brigade?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you have close contact with the 10th Mountain Brigade?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,
12 before the witness answers, we may have a problem of what kind of session
13 we need, whether open or closed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know
16 how to say that without being too open. There are perhaps geographical
17 reasons that we may need to switch.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, in the interest of the time
19 factor, we could perhaps go into closed session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll go into closed session. I wonder whether
21 it's necessary or not. Private session would be appropriate.
22 [Private session]
13 Page 17196 – redacted – private session
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE ORIE: But let me first address about Mr. -- Mr. DP2.
23 Perhaps the witness should not be present during all the other things we
24 have to discuss.
25 Mr. DP2, as you might have noticed, the counsel for the
1 Prosecution are taking the position that they have not yet finished your
2 cross-examination. Since we are not sitting tomorrow and not until
3 Christmas, if the Chamber would agree with the Prosecution, that would
4 mean that we have to ask you to come back at a later stage. That would
5 not be until somewhere in January. First of all, would you be available
6 to come back if the Chamber would decide that further examination is
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then would you please take care, first of all,
10 that the place where you can be reached is available to the victims and
11 witness unit so that they can approach you for a possible return into this
12 courtroom. The second issue is that although it's for a long time, you're
13 instructed not to speak with anyone about the testimony you've given until
14 now in this Court and not about the testimony you still are about to give
15 in this Court. So speak with no one about your testimony until now and
16 testimony still to come if any.
17 May I then ask the usher to escort the witness out of the
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the transcript, could you please
21 indicate what was the problem?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I do not
23 think that my learned colleague spoke about mobile telephones, perhaps
24 it's because it's the end of the session, but we see that it says mobile
25 telephones in the transcript. And I don't think this witness spoke of
1 mobile telephones.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... If the witness
3 would return then the question whether or not about mobile telephones will
4 be put to the witness again.
5 Then, I would first of all for the sake of the transcript I
6 earlier indicated that a redaction could be made. If the blinds could be
7 drawn up again. I don't know if there's anyone who could push the button.
8 If I could ask even for the assistance of the...
9 If despite the noise you can still hear me, I indicated before
10 that a redaction would be made in respect of the document D1818 having
11 been on the ELMO. We have been informed by the technical booth that no
12 image left ever this courtroom with exhibit D1818 on the ELMO. So the
13 redaction will finally not be made.
14 Then I'd like to address the Defence in respect of the following:
15 The Defence has asked for four witnesses appearing on the initial list of
16 witnesses to be replaced by four other witnesses. The Chamber wonders
17 whether the replacement of the witness which appears under number 55 by
18 another witness by the name of Krak would be justified, because we see
19 that the summary of the testimony expected from Witness Number 55 is long
20 and contains a lot of detail on various subjects, whereas the summary
21 provided for the witness who would replace him is of a very general
22 nature, and as far as we can see now, would not add substantially to the
23 testimony of other witnesses.
24 Therefore, the Defence should prepare for being allowed to call
25 three witnesses instead of the four; but at the same time, the Defence
1 still has an opportunity to give a short written submission in order to
2 explain why the witness that would replace Witness Number 55 would be
3 necessary, what would be the added value of that witness in respect of the
4 other witnesses already called on this subject. So therefore, the Defence
5 should be prepared that they will only be allowed to call three instead of
6 four witnesses, and then for a total number of hours of six, then, instead
7 of the eight scheduled.
8 I further inform the parties that my account goes until, I think
9 the day before yesterday, that the Prosecution took less time to
10 cross-examine the witnesses as the Defence did in examining the witnesses
11 in chief. I'm mentioning this because when the Defence cross-examined the
12 Prosecution witnesses, they took more time than the Prosecution took in
13 examination-in-chief. Now, we see the opposite picture. That is, the
14 Defence using more time for the examination-in-chief than the Prosecution
15 does in cross-examination. The Chamber will consider what should be the
16 consequences of that, because it could finally result in considerably more
17 time taken by one of the parties compared to the time taken by the other
18 party. But we'll have to consider this in more detail, and we'll do this
19 in due course.
20 Is there any urgent matter apart from that I take it that the
21 Defence would -- that the Prosecution would like to recall Witness DP2 in
22 order to finish its cross-examination? Is there any other urgent matter
23 that we have to deal with at this very moment?
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just in relation to the exhibits to be
25 tendered through the witnesses to be called from the 8th of January, when
1 we might expect notice or at least by which date the Defence should give
2 us notice of those exhibits. I would be grateful for that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you could tell the Prosecution when they can
4 expect your information, Ms. Pilipovic.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We'll do whatever we can,
6 Mr. President. But first of all, I wanted to ask you, could you bear in
7 mind about our determination about the 6th of the current [sic]? I don't
8 know whether you want any further information.
9 JUDGE ORIE: About the 6th of --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question for witnesses,
11 Ukrainian Russian --
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Would have to
13 be prepared for being allowed to call three rather than four witnesses.
14 I'm talking about Ukrainian Russian witnesses, and we compared the
15 summaries. And as I indicated before, especially in respect of
16 Witness 55, which gives a lengthy summary, at least a lot of details,
17 whereas the witness to replace him gives only general information rather
18 than such detail and to some extent would be -- seems to be repetitious.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: So I take the wisest thing to do would be to prepare
21 for the three most important witnesses, and then we'll see whether a
22 fourth would be granted. If you would like to draw additionally attention
23 to aspects not mentioned until now, you could do that. But then please do
24 it on very short notice.
25 Apart from that, I understand that you have been expressly invited
1 to ask for -- timely ask for interpreters to be present so that we could
2 examine these witnesses, and the registry informs me that no steps have
3 been taken in this respect.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm just looking. I
5 think that the lady who was in charge has been informed, the person that
6 we are supposed to be in touch with. That was on the 4th of December.
7 There was a request addressed to Mrs. Matesic. And we have asked for the
8 8th, 9th, and 10th, January, interpreter for Russian.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's good to know that it has been done. I think the
10 registry asked for a confirmation of that. But I take it then, Ms.
11 Pilipovic, that it has been done at a time well in advance of the
12 appearance of these witnesses.
13 Is there any other issue? Then, I first would like to thank
14 especially the interpreters and the technical assistants who really did
15 more than one could expect from someone. This is the last session before
16 Christmas. Whether you celebrate Christmas in December or early in
17 January, and whether you do it under the circumstances everyone would like
18 to celebrate Christmas or under less favourable circumstances, as the
19 Chamber is aware of that especially you, General Galic, that will be your
20 situation, at least I wish you whatever you expect to find during the
21 Christmas days and for the new year.
22 We adjourn until the 8th of January. But it's not sure yet
23 whether this will be in the morning or the afternoon, so I'd like to
24 invite the parties to keep themselves acquainted with the Court schedule
25 to be made public. We'll adjourn until the 8th of January.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
2 at 7.09 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
3 the 8th day of January, 2003.