1 Wednesday, 22 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Is the Defence ready to continue the examination of Witness DP36?

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You asked to address the Court.

15 MR. IERACE: Yes. There's something I wish to raise. And after

16 that, Mr. Mundis will also raise something in respect of the witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is it a matter that could be raised in open session?

18 MR. IERACE: I think so, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: It concerns whether the accused gives evidence.

21 Yesterday a meeting took place between Defence and Prosecution

22 counsel where the Prosecution was informed by the Defence that the accused

23 would not make his election until after the last witness in the

24 Prosecution case was called.

25 This morning, upon our entry into the Trial Chamber, we were

1 handed a filing in French by the Defence on the same topic, and as best as

2 I can discern the contents, it appears to be a confirmation of what we

3 were told yesterday. Today is the deadline imposed by the Trial Chamber

4 on the Defence to indicate whether the accused would be giving evidence.

5 It's the third deadline in two weeks that has not been met, the previous

6 deadlines being last Thursday, that deadline imposed on last Tuesday, and

7 then Monday this week, and now today.

8 Mr. President, I note that the filing this morning relies in part

9 on Article 21, chapter 4 of the Statute. And having regard to that

10 provision, it would seem that the words in particular relied upon are to

11 the effect that the accused should be entitled to the minimum guarantee of

12 not being compelled to testify against himself or to confess guilt. So I

13 don't know if that's of great assistance to the Defence.

14 The Defence indicated after the direction was imposed

15 on -- direction was given on Monday that they discerned a conflict between

16 the two provisions of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, which on the

17 one hand allow the accused, if he so desires, to appear as a witness in

18 his own defence. That appears at Rule 85(C). And on the other hand, Rule

19 65 ter, which of course requires the Defence at the outset of its case,

20 indeed before the presentation of its case, to indicate -- to identify

21 each of its witnesses.

22 Mr. President, again, I wonder whether that really is of much

23 assistance to the Defence because in my submission there is no conflict

24 between those two provisions. In other words, of course the accused may

25 or may not testify, but if he chooses to do so, then the Defence is

1 obliged to indicate that before the Defence case commences.

2 Mr. President, naturally the Prosecution continues to prepare

3 itself for the possibility that the accused will be a witness, but what's

4 involved here in my submission is a matter of principle. In my respectful

5 submission, the Rules clearly require the accused to be indicated as a

6 witness before the Defence case commences if that is his wish. And at

7 this very late stage of the Defence case, it is unacceptable that not only

8 the accused does not do so but the Defence ignores three set deadlines and

9 expresses its intention at this stage to not do so until the last witness

10 is called.

11 Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber has received the submission in

13 which the Defence asks to give a new decision, and we'll consider the

14 matter.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in that case, might Mr. Mundis raise

16 an issue in relation to this witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: And might I be excused?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Yesterday with the

21 commencement of this witness's testimony, he was then taken to events

22 occurring in -- or on or about the 2nd of May, 1992. The Prosecution

23 wishes at this point to raise an objection on two grounds. First, again

24 the Prosecution contends that this evidence, being prior to the

25 indictment, is irrelevant, and we wish simply to reiterate for the record

1 that the Prosecution's position that this potentially leads to a tu quoque

2 defence, which is not permitted.

3 And secondly, this evidence is cumulative. Let me remind the

4 Trial Chamber, Witness Goran Vukovic, who testified without protective

5 measures. His testimony in late October 2002, the Word transcript

6 beginning at page 14608 and continuing for several pages thereafter. That

7 witness testified about the precise event which this witness is currently

8 being examined upon and which in our submission the 15 to 20 minutes that

9 was spent on that yesterday, in light of the fact that it's both

10 cumulative and irrelevant, the Prosecution view is that this -- that the

11 Defence at the least should indicate the relevance of this cumulative

12 evidence. Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you another question: Is the event

14 as such contested by the Prosecution, apart from the relevance?

15 MR. MUNDIS: No, it's not, Mr. President. And that, I believe,

16 was indicated previously when the first witness testified.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, two objections and one piece of

18 information, objections, relevance, and the --

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence deems

20 that the testimony of this witness is relevant, that is, that within the

21 period of time that the witness is testifying about. That is, the

22 indictment itself which says that there was a plan of the JNA to take

23 important strategic positions in and around Sarajevo.

24 The testimony of this witness will allow the Defence to show the

25 Chamber that there was no such plan, and this witness will show the type

1 and degree of pressure on the Yugoslav People's Army to withdraw from

2 Sarajevo with all its materiel. That is the Defence's position. And for

3 that reason, the Defence is examining the witness about these facts. And

4 besides, the witness has spent a certain period of time, which is

5 relevant, in view of the negotiations and meetings that the witness

6 attended at that time which preceded the arrival of General Galic and

7 after that the witness returned to that area. So for the sake of

8 continuity and reliability of the witness, the Defence is examining this

9 witness about these facts.

10 And as for the objection regarding cumulative evidence about these

11 facts, the Defence deems that this testimony is not cumulative, since -- I

12 accept in one, and second and the third, but Witness Goran Vukovic did not

13 testify about certain events which happened on the 1st and the 2nd and the

14 3rd, and we deem that the Prosecutions objection that it is cumulative is

15 not acceptable.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As I said, two objections and one information.

17 The information was that the event was not contested as such.

18 So what's the need to go through events in detail? Perhaps you

19 can refer to that briefly. But what's the use of going into detail into

20 events that are, as such, not contested, that they happened?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, I understand

22 that the Prosecutor does not contest the event. But for the Defence, it

23 is very important to show through these events that the Yugoslav People's

24 Army withdrew from Sarajevo and that it pulled out both its troops and

25 materiel, and these witnesses can also tell us that a certain number --

1 that a certain part of the materiel, that is, the armament, stayed in the

2 hands of the members of the Territorial Defence.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's another issue. I would say that perhaps

4 as a guidance -- yesterday we spent quite some time on, let's say, the

5 event of taking -- taking the personal liberty of persons, which is not

6 contested. So the Defence could simply refer to that and ask for

7 confirmation of the witness whether he's aware of that, and then of course

8 the consequences and the meaning of that, putting pressure upon whoever

9 and what the consequences were is the next subject the Defence, of course,

10 could touch upon. Would you please keep this in mind, that if it's not

11 contested and that whatever new elements are in the evidence, of course

12 the Defence is entirely free to ask for it but to establish facts that

13 were already established through other witnesses and that are not

14 contested by the Prosecution is not of great assistance to the Chamber.

15 Could then perhaps the -- would you please keep this in mind when

16 you continue to cross-examine the witness.

17 The curtains should be pulled down first.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning -- or should I say dobar dan, Mr. DP36.

20 You still can hear me in a language you understand, I take it from your --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

23 solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is right.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 WITNESS: WITNESS DP36 [Resumed]

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP36, good morning.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. Yesterday my last question was: After you arrived in the Sarajevo

8 territory - and you told us that it was between the 22nd April and the

9 22nd of June, 1992 - at that time were you aware that the JNA had

10 left - when I say "had left," I mean both the troops and materiel - that

11 it had taken out its troops and materiel from Sarajevo?

12 A. I was an eyewitness to this decision. When I was released from

13 captivity, I eye-witnessed the decision that the JNA was to pull out from

14 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I saw numerous officers from

15 Serbia who were leaving the territory in a rush. But I must say that in

16 April, when I arrived there, I could already see that large parts of the

17 materiel were being pulled out even before the decision was taken that the

18 JNA should leave Bosnia-Herzegovina. To my mind, the decision to leave

19 such a critical territory was disastrous. And since at that time the JNA

20 had already been condemned as an aggressor army, it was trying to avoid

21 being qualified as such in Bosnia-Herzegovina and decided to withdraw with

22 its troops and materiel.

23 Q. Witness DP36, when you tell us this, are you aware if part of the

24 materiel - and when I say "materiel," I mean the weaponry - has it all

25 been pulled out from the area of Sarajevo, or do you have any knowledge if

1 certain depots of the Yugoslav People's Army were taken? That is, did the

2 JNA pull out all its weaponry from that area?

3 A. I do not have such information. The information that I have is

4 that during the pullout, some of this materiel was snatched from them.

5 Why? Because people were in serious danger and they were left without any

6 military experts who had pulled out from Sarajevo Rajlovac, so that a

7 column that was pulling out through Visoko via Zenica, people snatched

8 away from them such guns and in Sokolac some materiel was also taken. But

9 this was snatching the weaponry away from the JNA.

10 Q. Mr. DP36, yesterday you told us that you were with a column when

11 the Yugoslav People's Army left its commands, and you said that UNPROFOR

12 was also at the head of that column. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Can you tell us whether UNPROFOR carried out its task as

15 envisaged.

16 A. Well, it was well conceived, and MacKenzie's word was trusted.

17 However, the Muslim side brutally violated it and even the general was

18 aghast at such an ungentlemanly and brutal gesture. I think that UNPROFOR

19 did its utmost to pull us out safely, but unfortunately they were

20 powerless because we were surrounded from all the surrounding buildings

21 and trees and so on and so forth.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would

23 like to show the videotape number 12, that is, the event that the Witness

24 DP36 is telling us about. And when we see this tape -- and the Defence

25 deems that it is relevant, although I see my learned friend on his legs.

1 I expect an objection.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm informed that the booth gave the tape back

5 to Mr. Piletta-Zanin yesterday so that they have no tape. But apart from

6 that -- you have got it. Yes. It would certainly have been far more

7 efficient if you had given it this morning to the booth.

8 Mr. Mundis, you were on your feet.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] A slight misunderstanding. Thank

10 you, Your Honour. A slight misunderstanding between me and my co-counsel.

11 I didn't realise that he had taken it away.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, worse things can happen.

13 Mr. Mundis.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution renews its objection

15 on grounds of cumulative nature of this evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Have we seen this part of this tape before,

17 Ms. Pilipovic?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's not cumulative, and you're allowed to play

20 it. But please keep in mind my earlier words about cumulative evidence

21 about events non-contested. I don't know what I'll see on the -- on the

22 tape, and the Chamber would like to see it first.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The number for the videotape is 348/12, and the

24 transcript, 348/12.1.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The tape may be played.

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] They're aiming at us from all sides.

3 The train can't pass through.

4 The column made only 900 metres before being stopped in

5 Dobrovoljacka Street by the Zelene Beretke (Green Berets), the Ministry of

6 Interior Special assignment forces, Patriotic League, and members of other

7 Muslim paramilitary formations.

8 At the back of the column the plunder of equipment has started,

9 officers and soldiers are already being arrested, wounded or killed.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I was provided -- the Chamber was

11 provided with a transcript. I do, however, have some difficulties in

12 identifying what part of the transcript relates to the clip just shown.

13 The last page. As usual, I started on the first page.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. This is because the

15 Defence wanted to present a lot of material. We identified this segment.

16 But perhaps I failed to mark that it was to start on the third page.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Since I was very much concentrating on finding the

18 source, could the tape be replayed. It's only a short -- where exactly

19 does it start? "Voice on the radio," or -- page 3?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's how it was

21 presented, just for that part.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It could be replayed, because I couldn't

23 concentrate on it.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] From the Territorial Defence Hall a

1 chosen mass of people accompanying the vehicle's column. Listen to the

2 radio messages...

3 The crowd should only sit down and stop them from passing through.

4 Nothing else! They can't go by us!

5 What was that? They can't pass by us. We have them in our sight

6 from all sides.

7 Unless you pull back the soldiers, we'll kill you off like

8 rabbits.

9 The people should block the army so they can't get through.

10 The column made only 900 metres before being stopped in

11 Dobrovoljacka Street by the Green Berets, Ministry of Interior Special

12 assignment forces, Patriotic League, and members of other Muslim

13 paramilitary formations.

14 At the back of the column, the plunder of equipment has started,

15 officers and soldiers are already being arrested, wounded, or killed.

16 Pay attention to these conversations.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. DP36, you recognise -- could you identify the event on this

20 video and was that the column that you were in?

21 A. Yes, it was. It shows the narrowest part of the street here, at

22 the head of the column, with General MacKenzie and General Kukanjac and

23 Alija Izetbegovic were.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, you said you were in that column. And on

25 the basis of your experience in Sarajevo, can you tell us which forces are

1 concerned and how they were organised. And I'm referring to the forces

2 that perpetrated this massacre and stopped the column, in your personal

3 opinion.

4 A. Well, the video shows those forces, the Green Berets, the

5 Patriotic League, and the MUP. It was an MUP that consisted mostly of

6 Muslims. And there were also criminal groups. And I know this because I

7 was the hostage of one criminal group.

8 Q. And one other question about this incident: In your opinion, this

9 attack on the column, was it a planned attack?

10 A. Well, it had been planned because there was a high-ranking officer

11 of the former JNA with a megaphone. He had also been convicted as a

12 criminal. And this act of theirs, what they did to the column, had

13 catastrophic consequences for the way events developed in Sarajevo. And

14 similarly, a group of soldiers were killed in Tuzla on the 16th of May,

15 1992, in Brdjanska Malta [phoen].

16 Q. Mr. DP36, bearing in mind the video we have seen and your answers,

17 if I tell you that there is a position according to which the JNA planned

18 to take over important strategic positions in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo

19 and that it was already holding those positions at that time, what would

20 your response be? Could you answer my question?

21 A. Yes. After the war, I spoke to General Kukanjac at length, and he

22 claimed that the decision for the army to withdraw from Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina was a catastrophic decision and it had terrible consequences.

24 It had been taken rapidly. It wasn't possible for him to consolidate any

25 positions, and it didn't have this in plan. It wanted to be an army that

1 would strive to solve the issue in a peaceful manner.

2 Q. Mr. DP36, could you please just answer my question. Do you know

3 whether the JNA planned to take over important strategic positions in and

4 around Sarajevo, and did it do this?

5 A. No, it didn't take such positions over.

6 Q. Mr. DP36, you told us that on the 1st of April, 1993 you returned

7 to Sarajevo.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After leaving on the 22nd of June.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where you returned to and did you

12 engage in the military when you returned?

13 A. I was forced to leave on the 22nd of June, 1992. I was forced to

14 leave the territory because I had to report to my assignment and I had to

15 solve my family situation. I was then asked to return to my place of

16 birth, which I did on the 1st of April, 1993. I returned to my place of

17 birth in order to be with my friends and brothers and relatives and to

18 share their fate. They would have despised me in my neighbourhood if I

19 hadn't returned.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP36, the question was where you returned and

21 whether you engaged in any military activities. Your answer was about the

22 reasons why you left and what you did after you left. If the Defence

23 would be interested to know, they will certainly ask you. Could you

24 please listen carefully to the questions and answer to those questions.

25 I'm telling you this because the Defence is under some time restraint as

1 well, so they'd like to elicit from you the information they think is of

2 importance for the Defence of General Galic. And if you spend time on

3 issues they consider of less importance, then valuable time might be lost

4 for the Defence.

5 Please proceed.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. DP36, since time is restricted, could you respond as briefly

8 as possible in order to present the greatest possible number of facts, if

9 we're talking about your stay in that territory. Were you assigned some

10 military position?

11 A. I reported to the corps command on the 1st of April, 1993, and I

12 was assigned to the organ for morale and information.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, when you received this assignment, when you

14 were assigned to the organ for morale and information, can you tell us

15 whom you reported to in the command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

16 A. Well, it just so happened that my first meeting in Pale, as I was

17 passing through, was with General Galic. We just greeted each other, and

18 I had to continue to Lukavica.

19 Q. Thank you. As an assistant, you said you were assigned to the

20 organ for morale and information. Can you tell us what position you were

21 assigned to and what were your duties.

22 A. Well, I was the assistant to the colonel for morale. I was a

23 chief in his department. He had already been assigned that position. But

24 my -- the general wasn't my immediate superior. I performed duties from

25 that field and in the department that I had been assigned to.

1 Q. Mr. DP36, when you say that you performed duties at the position

2 that you had assumed, can you tell us what sort of duties you performed as

3 part of the assignment.

4 A. Well, the duties I performed had to do with reporting on the

5 situation in the field. I would send these reports to the organ for

6 morale, and then monthly reports and quarterly analysis of the situation

7 as far as morale was concerned would be sent to the corps command. So I

8 went into the field to see what the situation was with the soldiers, and

9 the general supported this method, the method of going into the field and

10 spending time with the men.

11 Q. Mr. DP36, you said you went into the field and that you spoke to

12 the troops. Are you telling us that you visited the lines, the front

13 lines of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

14 A. Yes, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to become familiar with

15 the terrors of war and all its aspects, and the general agreed to this

16 desire of mine. Whenever I requested to go into the field, I did so. And

17 this is something I did in addition to the other duties that I had to

18 perform.

19 Q. You have now told us what your duties were when you went into the

20 field, but you also said "in addition to other duties." What were the

21 other duties that you had?

22 A. Well, they more or less had to do with the duties that I had to

23 perform. But the general asked me to go and control how the peace -- how

24 the truce was being respected.

25 Q. I would like you to stop there for a minute and concentrate on one

1 of your tasks. When you said that you were sent to monitor how the truce

2 was being respected or whether it was being respected, can you tell us

3 anything else about that? Can you tell us when you went?

4 A. It was in the first week of May. The general assigned me a

5 particular task after seeing him in the morning. He assigned this task to

6 me and some of us from the corps. I was to go to the 1st Romanija Corps

7 to control the cease-fire in the zone of responsibility of that brigade.

8 I went at about 10.00. I arrived there at about 11.00 at the command

9 post.

10 Q. Mr. DP36, before you answer my question as to how much time you

11 spent there, can you tell us whether you know who signed the agreement on

12 respecting the truce.

13 A. I don't know. My principle was to do what the superior ordered me

14 to do, but it must have been signed by someone at a high level. But we

15 had to respect it, and the general sent me to control this.

16 Q. When you say that one of your first tasks was to go to the

17 territory of the 1st Romanija Brigade, can you tell us where you went in

18 particular when you went to control how the truce was being respected?

19 A. I went to the command of the 1st Romanija Brigade, and I reported

20 to the commander. I spoke to him briefly. That was the first time I met

21 him. I told him what my task was and pointed out that the general said

22 that the truce had to be respected and that the army had to maintain its

23 image.

24 Q. Mr. DP36, how much time did you spend there, and can you tell us

25 while you were there, did you notice -- did you observe that the truce had

1 been violated?

2 A. Until 14.00 hours on that day, that's -- I was there until that

3 time. I was in the operative centre with the duty officer and I listened

4 to reports from the commanders of battalion in the field. The terrain was

5 very difficult. It was difficult to pass through. And I listened to

6 those reports.

7 Q. Can you tell us what sort of reports you could accept and what

8 sort of reports did you take away with you when you returned to the corps

9 command? Was the truce violated? And if so, who violated it?

10 A. Well, I was informed that the Muslim side was taking action in

11 Berija, Brijesce, Faletici, and they were constantly taking action. And

12 at about 1600 hours, it was reported that a soldier had been seriously

13 wounded. His surname was Jokic. I remember this. He had been wounded in

14 the job. I made a report when I returned to the command and then I

15 forwarded it.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, you've mentioned the violation of the truce.

17 While you were in the territory of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, can you

18 tell us according to the personal knowledge that you have of this how

19 often these truces were signed and to what extent were they respected

20 during the period that you were there?

21 A. The truces were signed -- well, I don't know how many were signed

22 exactly and I don't know who signed them. I know that whenever they were

23 signed, we were informed about this and it was forwarded to all the

24 brigades. All the brigades were informed that they had to respect the

25 truce. I don't know.

1 Q. Do you know whether and how often this truce was violated? Was it

2 in force? If you were told that it had been signed and that it should be

3 respected, for how long was it in force? Was it at all respected?

4 A. While I was on duty in the corps command, the reports from all the

5 brigades which we received mentioned the fact that the truce had been

6 violated -- the cease-fire had been violated by the enemy side. And in

7 the corps command, not a single night passed without us hearing infantry

8 fire in the Dobrinja area, which was constantly being attacked by the

9 enemy. So the reports from all the brigades stated that not a single

10 morning passed without a report arriving in a brigade according to which

11 the cease-fire had been violated.

12 Q. Mr. DP36, are you telling us that in that area there was firing on

13 a daily basis, so to speak, or fighting on a daily basis?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, this testimony sounds very familiar to

16 me. Did we hear already from many, many witnesses -- and it's my

17 recollection that the truces were -- the cease-fires were always violated

18 by the -- by the opposing party. I think I should check it, whether I

19 heard it from three, five, seven, or ten witnesses. Cumulative evidence

20 is not needed. I don't know whether the violations of the truces is

21 contested as such, that such violations took place. I'm not saying as to

22 whether the Prosecution agrees to whether it was only violated by one

23 party but that violations took place.

24 MR. MUNDIS: No. Certainly -- certainly violations took place,

25 Mr. President.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. MUNDIS: And that would go to the issue as to why there were

3 to many of them negotiated and put into force.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean if they were all kept, then it was not

5 necessary to conclude new.

6 So I gave you some guidance, Ms. Pilipovic, as to cumulative

7 evidence and repetitive evidence and issues not being contested. Would

8 you please keep that in mind.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. DP36, you said that you were on duty in the corps command.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us how often you were on duty in the corps command

13 and what sort of duties did this involve when one was on duty?

14 A. Well, I was the duty officer in the corps on the basis of the

15 list, and the duties of the duty officer included gathering intelligence

16 reports, monitoring the situation, and controlling whether orders had been

17 respected, the orders that were issued that morning and which were

18 regulated even before and which have to be respected for a longer period

19 of time. So this was one of the duties, not to mention others.

20 Q. Mr. DP36, while you were at your post as duty officer in the corps

21 command, did you at any time receive written protests from UNPROFOR?

22 First of all, I should ask you whether you at any time had contact with

23 UNPROFOR members.

24 A. I didn't have any personal contact with them, but I received the

25 task from the general to lead a column of UNPROFOR vehicles through our

1 territory via Butmir, Ilidza, Osijek, up to Vogosca, and on that trip the

2 driver and officer who was with me was a witness when a mortar shell hit

3 us. It came from the direction of Butmir. This was in Ilidza. This was

4 the personal contact I had. But later on I had more contact with UNPROFOR

5 representatives when I was in the north-western part and I had to

6 implement certain orders with them, orders which I received from the

7 corps, and I also had to perform certain other actions.

8 Q. Mr. DP36, we shall return to the issue of your cooperation with

9 UNPROFOR when you were in the north-western part of the battlefield. But

10 when you were the duty officer in the corps command, did you at any time

11 receive a protest from UNPROFOR according to which an incident had

12 happened in a certain part of the town and in which civilians had died?

13 A. I never received such information, nor was this the practice.

14 There was a liaison officer who received such information and then

15 forwarded it to higher organs, and we would then receive information from

16 the commander and his chief, but I didn't receive any information.

17 Q. And did you at any time receive a protest from UNPROFOR while you

18 were the duty officer? And if you did, what were the contents of those

19 protests?

20 A. I don't think that this was common practice, but I didn't receive

21 any kind of protest from them. It probably wasn't up to them to inform us

22 about that, if there was anything of that kind. But I never received such

23 a protest.

24 Q. Mr. DP36, you said that you spent a certain period of time in the

25 north-western part of the battlefield. Have I understood you correctly?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us what year that covered, which brigades or units

3 were deployed in that area?

4 A. I know which units were deployed there. That was the most

5 critical zone in the corps because it was in certain operative

6 surroundings. The Igman and Ilidza Brigade were there. The Rajlovac

7 Brigade was there - which was later transformed - The Vogosca Brigade and

8 the Ilijas Brigade.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, you said that this area was in the

10 operative -- in an operative circle. Can you tell us what this means, "an

11 operative circle," "operative surroundings," with regard to the units that

12 you have mentioned.

13 A. Well, let me tell you. It was in an operative encirclement

14 surroundings because the forces that were there had operational

15 significance. But the depth surrounding it wasn't very great. It

16 had -- it almost had two fronts. It had one front which went from

17 Herzegovina towards Pazarici and had a front over Kiseljak, had a front

18 towards Kiseljak, and had a front at Igman. That was from one side. And

19 on the other side there was a front towards the part of Sarajevo that was

20 in Muslim hands. So it was a very difficult, and there was a lot of

21 psychological pressure for both the civilians and the soldiers.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, you have now described that part of the

23 front to us, and you said that while you were in that area -- well, first

24 of all, could you tell us how much time you spent in this area and which

25 period did this concern, given that you said in August 1994 you left the

1 territory of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

2 A. I spent a little less than a year there, ten and a half months, I

3 think. I was sent there at my request. I wanted to spend time in the

4 territory over there. And secondly, I was there because the truce had

5 been violated again. At sometime in mid-June the line moved in favour of

6 the Muslims. It moved for 300 metres in the Vis area, in the Mijatovic

7 Kosa area, Zabrdje area. They moved the line about 300 metres. And when

8 the general decided that he had to form a strong unit there that could

9 organise a better defence of that area because it was in that area that

10 the Muslim forces approached the forces that went through Visoko, Breza.

11 Q. Mr. DP36, I'll stop you there. How often did you visit the

12 positions in that part of the battlefield?

13 A. Almost daily. I used all of my available time to tour that area.

14 Q. Can you tell us whether you were able to survey and see what the

15 weaponry of Republika Srpska army was, or rather, what was the weaponry

16 used by the members of the 1st Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

17 A. It was the infantry weaponry, and I omitted to tell you that in

18 that operative encirclement what was very unfavourable was that all of our

19 lines were inferior in comparison to the Muslim lines. The Muslim

20 lines -- the Muslims pressured us with their positions. They mostly had

21 mortars, light machine-guns, M-71 -- M-51. But I was mostly interested in

22 infantry weapons and in infantry troops.

23 Q. When you say that you were interested mostly in infantry troops,

24 in these positions were you able and did you ever see snipers?

25 A. I neither saw them nor did I wish to see them, because to me a

1 sniper is something terrible. I never saw a sniper either in the corps or

2 at the lines which I toured.

3 Q. Mr. DP36, can you tell us, during the time that you spent in the

4 corps, do you know whether at the level of the corps command or at some

5 meetings there were certain agreements that were signed?

6 A. Agreements were signed. There was an agreement, and I learned of

7 this later. I didn't see that document. I learned this through the book

8 of Michael Rose, that there had been some anti-sniper agreement that had

9 been signed in 1994. There were number of agreements but they were not

10 generally signed at the level of the corps command. It was mostly signed

11 at the strategic, political level.

12 Q. When you toured the front lines at the north-west sector of the

13 battlefield, you told us that you were interested only in infantry troops

14 and in infantry weaponry. But can you tell us whether there had been any

15 heavy weapons in that area?

16 A. Yes, there had been heavy weapons there but at the north-western

17 side. And it was used only exclusively for defence as infantry support.

18 Later on at the end of February 1994, that weaponry was pulled out.

19 Q. You say that that weaponry was pulled out in late February 1994.

20 Can you tell us whether that weaponry was pulled out based on some

21 decision or document. What do you know about the pullout of heavy

22 weapons?

23 A. All of the weapons that were pulled out, 12.7 and up calibre, was

24 pulled out pursuant to the resolution of the United Nations following a

25 massacre that remains unproven still in Markale or some place similar to

1 that. I don't know exactly. But we had to carry out that order, and it

2 was very difficult for us to do so.

3 Q. Mr. DP36, did you personally participate in any way in the

4 execution of this order? And if so, when was that during the pullout of

5 the heavy weapons?

6 A. I was in charge of the north-western area, and I was in charge of

7 controlling the speed with which this was pulled out. We were in a

8 difficult situation. Our people were constantly in danger because the

9 line could have been pierced, penetrated. And we went to various depots

10 which were some 20 kilometres away, and I had to remain in contact with

11 UNPROFOR forces in that north-western area.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the transcript, you put a

13 question to the witness. I didn't want to interrupt you earlier, but you

14 did put a question to the witness as to agreements signed. And it's my

15 recollection that I heard that you asked about anti-sniping agreements,

16 where in the transcript it appears that -- was it in general about

17 agreements?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] In general about agreements. And

19 Mr. DP36 said that he knew about the agreements and he also mentioned one

20 of the agreements that was signed in 1994.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My question was aimed at the

23 agreement on withdrawal of heavy weapons.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may add, I

25 simply --

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... It was in the

2 answer that the anti-sniper agreement was -- I -- I have to apologise. It

3 was the answer, rather than the question. So the transcript seems to be

4 complete.

5 Thank you. Please proceed.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. DP36, you told us that you participated in the execution

8 of -- in the implementation of the agreement on withdrawal of heavy

9 weapons in the north-western area of the front. Did I understand you

10 well?

11 A. No, I did not participate in that. I was simply in charge of

12 implementation. I was not authorised to sign anything of that nature.

13 Q. Now that you told us that you were tasked with implementation, can

14 you tell us who assigned this task to you and was this agreement

15 implemented, in fact?

16 JUDGE ORIE: I ask both of you to slow down, because if we want to

17 hear whatever you say, Mr. DP36, then the interpreters should have an

18 opportunity to -- a possibility to translate your words. Yes. I can

19 imagine that it's quite understandable that this happens.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, would you please keep this in mind as well.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So Mr. DP36, can you please answer the question. Who issued that

23 order or task to you, and can you tell us whether that agreement was

24 implemented successfully. Did you carry out your assignment?

25 A. Assignments or tasks are usually issued by the corps commander to

1 the people in brigades, and then we would in turn receive it from the

2 brigade commander or the tactical group that existed and we simply had to

3 implement it. There was no other alternative. The agreement was

4 implemented with difficulty, but the commander of UNPROFOR forces at the

5 time, General Michael Rose, agreed with this observation. So we carried

6 out that with difficulty, but we did.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, you told us that you spent some time in the

8 corps command, which is located in Lukavica; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us whether, according to you, General Galic had a

11 good view of the city of Sarajevo from his command post?

12 A. No, there was no way he could have had a good view of the city of

13 Sarajevo. One could have such a view but not from General Galic's

14 premises. Only when one would go out, one would be able to see the

15 Dobrinja area, and only in winter or fall when there were no leaves on the

16 trees, and also a part of Hrasnica, because we had Mojmilo in between.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. You're welcome.

19 Q. Mr. DP36, while you spent time in the corps command as a duty

20 officer, you told us that you received reports. As a duty officer, did

21 you also receive certain orders?

22 A. Yes. We were there to do our job and to be informed about the

23 entire situation, and we would normally receive orders from the corps

24 commander, nothing else.

25 Q. When you say that you were given orders, can you tell us whether

1 at any time you received or heard that General Galic, if it was him who

2 personally issued an order -- of an order -- so did you ever hear or did

3 you ever receive an order that a fire be opened against civilians who

4 lived in the area under the control of the BH army?

5 A. This is out of the question. General Galic or any other officer

6 could not have issued such an order. I never received such an order from

7 General Galic myself nor did he ever think of ordering anything of that

8 nature, nor did I hear ever during our briefing that there was an

9 intention of doing so.

10 Q. You just told us that you never heard something of that nature

11 during your briefings. Can you tell us whether you were present, and if

12 so, how often, at the meetings where General Galic attended as well, and

13 what kind of briefings did you receive there?

14 A. Whenever I was at the corps command, I was invited to the

15 briefings, although technically there was no obligation to invite me.

16 Q. Can you tell us whether General Galic respected or observed the

17 views presented by his men at the briefings.

18 A. Well, his methodology was to listen to his subordinates, and that

19 was the mechanism of his decision-making. While listening to his

20 subordinate, operatives, assistants and so on, he would create a decision

21 in his head and his word would be final. And I believe that this is a

22 proper way to make decisions. We generally did not have any objections

23 after the meeting ended.

24 Q. Mr. DP36, in view of the time that you spent in the corps and in

25 view of the fact that you attended morning meetings and so on, can you

1 tell us what was the position, what was the attitude of General Galic with

2 respect to the cease-fire agreements, truce agreements, and so on, the

3 agreements on humanitarian aid, on the passage of humanitarian aid

4 convoys? What was the attitude of General Galic with respect to these

5 agreements that had been signed?

6 A. I suppose that the general had to carry out the orders received

7 from the general staff, from his superiors. General Galic had quite a

8 number of problems because humanitarian aid arrived in his territory in

9 the part of Sarajevo held by Muslims, and these problems were not the

10 problems created by the army. These problems were the problems relating

11 to the population, because through this humanitarian aid military

12 equipment arrived as well.

13 And Your Honour, if you allow me --

14 Q. Mr. DP36, we will get to that issue about your personal knowledge

15 regarding the transport of humanitarian aid into the part of town

16 controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska. Tell us, please: Do you

17 personally know of any abuses of humanitarian convoys?

18 A. I was just about to tell you that, that there were several

19 instances --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. Cumulative. We've heard a wealth of

22 evidence relating to what the Defence characterises as abuse of

23 humanitarian convoys.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, if we first will try to find out

25 whether that evidence is corroborated or not by this witness and if

1 there's any detail that was not yet in evidence, please ask the witness

2 about it.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. At any rate,

4 Mr. DP36 corroborates the testimony of the protected witness. I can't

5 tell you the pseudonym -- the initials of that witness because I do not

6 recall them right now. But --

7 Q. Mr. DP36.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Mr. Mundis,

9 would there be any objection against leading if it relates to earlier

10 evidence?

11 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So you can lead the witness through the main elements

13 of the testimony -- the evidence that has been presented before. And if

14 there is anything additional that's not yet presented to the Chamber,

15 please feel free to ask the witness about it.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. DP36, were you present at a certain place -- and I am

18 specifically interested in Kasindolska Street when the humanitarian convoy

19 was halted and when the equipment was found in the convoy that was

20 supposed to be taken in the part of territory controlled by the BH army.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I hope

22 you will allow me to state the following: I was never personally present

23 at the site where this happened. However, after I read the book called

24 "The clever strategy," written by the commander of the TO army,

25 Sefer Halilovic. At page 94 he boasts and says that they tricked us and

1 managed to use the humanitarian aid to supply weapons and ammunition to

2 Sarajevo. This is on page 94. The book is called "The clever strategy,"

3 by Sefer Halilovic. I just wanted to state that. Thank you.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP36. Can you tell us, in view of the fact that

5 you toured the front lines, according to you what was the operative

6 position of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

7 A. Generally speaking, that was the most difficult position of any

8 unit of the Army of Republika Srpska. I can give you details if the

9 Presiding Judge will allow me.

10 First of all, they were inferior in terms of their numbers and in

11 view of the unit surrounding them. They had to carry out very difficult

12 defence operations so that the Muslims would not take up the plant in

13 Hadzici that they could have used in order to carry out a very brutal

14 revenge operation. So the corps did their best in order to prevent that.

15 I had an opportunity to speak to the general, and I heard that the corps

16 had absolutely no ability to carry out aggression. It was only involved

17 in defence because of its position, of its equipment, and of its forces.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, you told us that in addition to the tasks

19 you had in the field, with respect to the observation of cease-fire

20 agreements, and in addition to your contacts with UNPROFOR and your duties

21 as duty officer, you were also assistant to the commander for morale and

22 information. Did you have any other tasks during the time you spent in

23 that area, and what were those tasks, the area held by the Sarajevo

24 Romanija Corps?

25 A. Well, those tasks mostly pertained to keeping the morale of the

1 forces at a satisfactory level and --

2 Q. Mr. DP36, I will stop you there. Did you personally have any

3 information concerning what facilities were used to house the members of

4 the BH army in the part of town controlled by their forces? Did you have

5 any such information?

6 A. I did not have such information. I did not receive it. However,

7 I heard that they mostly used inhumane firing positions, or rather, that

8 they placed their positions in the vicinity of humanitarian buildings and

9 structures. We heard a lot about that, and this is also confirmed by

10 General Michael Rose. He said that he found a lot of Muslim firing

11 positions in inappropriate places in the vicinity of kindergartens,

12 schools, hospitals, and so on.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP36, do you personally know whether at the corps

14 level there had been meetings of, so to say, certain commissions? That is

15 to say, do you know whether there had been any mixed commissions set up by

16 warring sides, and were you ever present at the meetings of such

17 commissions, and what took place there?

18 A. Let me tell you that at the strategic level, there were

19 commissions and at the operative tactical level the corps command had its

20 organs and their composition varied. On one occasion, I was assigned to

21 attend negotiations at the airport. There were some difficult questions

22 discussed there. I went with General Tolimir to attend these negotiations

23 at the airport. And at the level of the corps command, there was a

24 commission which I think had a variable composition. And on one occasion

25 I was tasked with going to these negotiations at the airport with

1 General Tolimir.

2 Q. Mr. DP36, so you were sent to attend negotiations with

3 General Tolimir. Was that the meeting of the commission at the level of

4 the general staff?

5 A. Yes. I was delegated to attend in order to learn what were the

6 corps' tasks regarding that. The convoys of Muslims and Croats were to

7 leave the town and cross our territory, and this is what was discussed

8 there. General Tolimir agreed to this. However, they did not manage to

9 reach an agreement regarding that. General Tolimir even offered buses to

10 them. A lot of people wanted to leave Sarajevo. General Tolimir was very

11 understanding. He offered them to use our buses and cross our territory.

12 However, they were unable to reach an agreement. I think this was one of

13 the last meetings chaired by General Morillon.

14 Q. Mr. DP36, do you know what was the position of the corps

15 command -- what was the attitude of the corps command with respect to

16 organising and enabling the civilian population to pass through the

17 territory held by Sarajevo Romanija Corps? Do you personally know whether

18 there had been such instances when the civilian population passed through

19 that area?

20 A. The corps command was not authorised to pass decisions concerning

21 whether they would be allowed to pass through the territory. That was

22 done at the higher level. Whereas, the corps command had to enable them

23 unhindered passage through that area. Therefore, General Galic was not

24 authorised to decide who was to be let through and who wasn't. He simply

25 carried out orders issued by superior organ.

1 Q. Do you have information as to whether there had been such passages

2 and whether unhindered passage was enabled?

3 A. I am talking now about the time when General Michael Rose was

4 there. There had been convoys. There had been passages, and I believe

5 that there were no incidents, at least in the area held by the corps.

6 Whoever wanted to leave, if a prior agreement existed, was able to leave.

7 Q. In view of your contacts in the north-western part of battlefield,

8 your contacts with UNPROFOR I mean, and contacts relating to the passage

9 of humanitarian convoys, what was your attitude regarding the cooperation

10 with UNPROFOR members, their cooperation with the Serb side?

11 A. My personal attitude is extremely positive. I have my own

12 personal attitude. We desired such cooperation. However, I can't tell

13 you about the level above, although I have to quote the words of

14 General Michael Rose once again, who said verbatim --

15 MR. MUNDIS: Objection.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would like to raise an

18 objection in the presence of -- in the absence of the witness, perhaps,

19 given that it's close to a time for a break.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could do that then now and have a

21 break.

22 Therefore, I'd like to ask the usher to pull down the curtains and

23 ask the -- escort the witness out of the courtroom.

24 Witness DP36, we'll have a break for approximately half an hour,

25 and there's one procedural issue we'll have to discuss and we'll discuss

1 it in your absence. So we'd like to see you back in half an hour.

2 Is there -- Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. All I wanted to

4 say is that this was my last question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That was your last question, so --

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would there be any reason, then, to hear your

8 objection, Mr. Mundis? Is it about questions and answers already been

9 given, or would it be for future questions?

10 MR. MUNDIS: It has to do with answers already given.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 Upon your return, then, you'll be further examined by counsel for

13 the Prosecution, and perhaps there will be questions from the Bench as

14 well.

15 Madam Usher, you may escort the witness out of the courtroom.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll be very brief, in

19 light of both the break and the fact that Ms. Pilipovic has no further

20 questions.

21 But for the record, the Prosecution objects to several of the

22 answers. And I know that's not the normal course of events. But on four

23 occasions this witness referred to material that he's read in books,

24 including three references to Sir Michael Rose's book, and one reference,

25 including a page number to Sefer Halilovic's book. And the Prosecution

1 objects to this type of evidence on the grounds that it has the effect of

2 getting into evidence, material which may not otherwise be admissible, or

3 evidence which the Defence could have put to Sir Michael Rose when in fact

4 he was here testifying. So we simply raise an objection to this type of

5 evidence. And I understand it came in response -- or it may not have

6 necessarily come in response, but for the record we object to witnesses

7 coming in, citing to page numbers of books as an improper means of giving

8 evidence before the Trial Chamber. Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, I do understand that the

10 Prosecution does not blame the Defence for eliciting such information from

11 the witness. Having heard that he worked for a long time as a military

12 historian, it's perhaps not a major surprise that he gives answers where

13 he uses sources which historians might easily use. Would you respond to

14 that, and let's just limit ourselves to the objection that -- how to

15 evaluate or how to consider this evidence when -- yes.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence deems

17 that the testimony of this witness was a fact testimony. He testified

18 about the events about which he knew personally, and we believe that in

19 his testimony he wanted to corroborate what he personally knew by using

20 the material that pertained to that period of time and by using the

21 quotations he gave us here.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, may I just ask you: Did I

23 understand the testimony of this witness well. For example, when he

24 referred to one of these books, that he started answering that he does not

25 have -- he was never present but that he read in a book what someone else

1 said about it? Your answer is that he invoked the references in the books

2 to corroborate what he personally had observed or what his personal

3 knowledge was. Whereas, I -- I could check it, but --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I remember one

5 such answer --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... I think where

7 the witness said first -- let me just check.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I remember that

9 answer. We spoke about abuses of humanitarian aid. And my question was

10 whether Mr. DP36 was present at any event. I think I mentioned Kasindol

11 instance, because we heard prior testimony regarding that. And the

12 witness didn't say that he didn't know about that event but that he knew

13 that there had been such instances and that this is also confirmed by the

14 book of Mr. Halilovic, meaning the abuses. He didn't say exactly.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check, then, his exact answer.

16 Ms. Pilipovic, upon your question on the Kasindolska Street

17 incident, the witness answered: "Mr. President, I hope you will allow me

18 to state the following. I was never personally present at the site where

19 this happened. However, after I read the book called "The clever

20 strategy," written by the commander of the TO army, Sefer Halilovic at

21 page 94 --" you could hardly say that this is corroboration of what he

22 personally experienced, because he says he wasn't present there. He

23 doesn't make any reference to the occurrence of -- at least in this

24 answer.

25 But I take it in general terms - but the Chamber will consider

1 it - that at least where the witness refers to books that he establishes

2 as a fact of personal knowledge that this appears in a book and the book

3 mentioned. If we would further have to establish the truth of what is

4 written in the books, it might not be sufficient to just ask someone what

5 is written in a book. I think if we keep that in mind, then we'll

6 certainly -- but of course, you could say that the mere fact that someone

7 writes it in a book gives, at least, a beginning of evidence or some

8 suspicion that it might be true that at least someone has thought about

9 this as being the truth. But whether this would be the final evidence or

10 what is written in books -- similar when I keep in mind the exchange of

11 views of the parties and remarks of a lot of witnesses on the

12 possibilities of distortion of the truth in reports, whether these are

13 media reports, whether these are written books -- I think it's a fact of

14 common knowledge that a subjective approach to facts is, at least, a

15 possibility when you write a book, when you make a film, and I think that

16 this is of such general knowledge that the parties would agree that that

17 is a possibility.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I merely wished

19 to mention that Witness DP36 at the relevant time of the indictment was in

20 the area. And in view of his combat orders, we believe that he had

21 information that such incidents did take place. And whether he was

22 personally present, well, we heard it from him. But the Defence

23 nevertheless believes that the witness was informed about all the

24 incidents of that nature, such as the abuses of humanitarian aid, in view

25 of his rank and his presence at morning briefings. In other words, I

1 again still believe that he merely -- that when he quoted books, he merely

2 wanted to corroborate that in his view that was true.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It would be wise that if you -- you did not

4 always ask him about his personal knowledge. For example, on this event,

5 on the abuse of humanitarian aid. He said, "Well, let me just say it's in

6 the books." If you would need to elicit from him the information you are

7 telling us now, that apart from what he testified already about on the

8 basis of his personal knowledge that there would be other areas where he

9 would have personal knowledge and not just knowledge taken from books.

10 Your estimate was that you would need four hours. Of course -- the there

11 would still be some time if you would like to elicit this information from

12 him.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Two hours, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, well --

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That is an error. We have

16 envisaged two hours for this witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But even then there would be some time left in order

18 to come to your two hours. I'm not insisting on you using the full two

19 hours. But since there -- you take a different position from the

20 Prosecution and that you understand the testimony to be the corroboration

21 of personal knowledge, personal observation of events, knowledge obtained

22 by other means than by reading books, perhaps it would be wise to have

23 this clarified in a few questions to the witness.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

25 will ask him that question after the break.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ask him then about facts. Yes?

2 We'll adjourn until ten minutes past 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I was informed that you'd like to address

6 the Chamber.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Very briefly. In relation

8 to the issue of the accused perhaps giving evidence, a practical

9 consequence of not knowing for the Prosecution is the difficulty it

10 creates in planning out cross-examination of the other remaining witnesses

11 given the tight time constraints on our cross-examination. If we did

12 know, then we could plan our cross-examination much more efficiently.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the request of the

17 Prosecution to give a new decision on when to decide whether the accused,

18 General Galic, would testify as a witness.

19 The Chamber has noticed that the Defence has until now postponed

20 its decision whether or not to call the accused as a witness. The Chamber

21 also notes that the Defence has not provided any summary of the evidence

22 to be given by the accused, General Galic, as a witness. The Chamber

23 respects the difficulties the Defence has to, when reaching a decision on

24 whether or not to call General Galic as a witness. On the other hand, the

25 Chamber has also taken into consideration the difficulties the Prosecution

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1 is facing in preparing cross-examination in case General Galic would

2 testify; and therefore, the Chamber takes the position that the

3 Prosecution should be properly informed in order to -- that all

4 information is provided to the Prosecution necessary in order to prepare

5 for the cross-examination.

6 Therefore, if the Defence wants to reserve its right to call

7 General Galic as a witness, they should provide a detailed survey of

8 subjects the accused would testify about to the Prosecution. That should

9 be done as soon as possible. The Defence has several times indicated that

10 they would come up with a decision. They now ask for more time, but it

11 should be as soon as possible. The detailed survey of the subjects the

12 accused will testify about should be provided to the Prosecution.

13 The Defence should call the accused before it calls expert

14 witnesses to testify. Even if the accused will be the last to testify of

15 these witnesses of fact, his testimony should be available when the expert

16 witnesses are examined.

17 If, finally, the Defence will decide not to call General Galic,

18 the Chamber will accept that he will not be called up till that moment.

19 That means he will be, apart from any exceptions of non-availability of

20 witnesses of fact or that they could not be summoned in time, but as a

21 principle the Defence should have made up its mind before we start hearing

22 expert witnesses. If, for whatever reason, on the basis of the testimony

23 still to be heard after that there would be a need to re-call

24 General Galic after the expert witnesses have been examined, the Defence

25 may apply for a re-call.

1 That is the ruling of the Chamber on this issue. So to say it in

2 short, if you want to reserve the right, the Defence should enable the

3 Prosecution to prepare for cross-examination, and General Galic should be

4 examined before the expert witnesses.

5 The Defence is invited to inform the Chamber about the time they

6 would need to provide the detailed survey of subjects they would like to

7 examine General Galic as a witness about. And as I said before, it should

8 be done as soon as possible. We'd like to know when the Defence thinks it

9 could provide that survey. Not necessarily at this very moment, but as

10 soon as possible. And having in mind that the Defence indicated that the

11 last witnesses of fact might be heard on the 28th of January, and keeping

12 in mind the time needed for cross-examination, that "as soon as possible"

13 would mean very soon.

14 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, given that today's date is the 22nd

16 and, therefore, it's -- it seems that we are already approaching, if not

17 within, the seven-days' notice that the Defence must give for the calling

18 of witnesses who are confirmed on the witness list, it's my respectful

19 submission that not only the 65 ter summary of evidence to be heard but

20 also the time estimate should be given to the Prosecution very quickly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. When I said "as soon as possible and

22 that would be very soon," you will understand that if the Prosecution

23 would need more time, we'll consider that. But as a starting point, the

24 testimony should be heard before we start with the expert witnesses.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respectfully propose that

1 there be a particular date by which that information is to be conveyed to

2 the Prosecution.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I first would like to hear when the Defence

4 thinks it could do so. Today is Wednesday. Let's -- let's hear

5 this -- if you want to consult, Ms. Pilipovic, with General Galic and

6 perhaps with co-counsel, I think it would be a good idea to hear from you

7 at the start of the hearing tomorrow morning, not later than that. And

8 please keep in mind when I say "soon," I am talking about seven days

9 usually as the time limit for indicating calling order and exhibits, not

10 about summaries that are provided for other witnesses already at a

11 previous stage. And keeping the mind the time schedule, that it's really

12 to be done very quickly. Yes?

13 Then if there are no further questions on this issue, could we

14 please have the witness into the courtroom again, Madam Usher.

15 I hope that there's no misunderstanding. Just one of my -- my

16 fellow Judges asked me. There is up till the last moment an opportunity

17 to say "We will not call General Galic." But all preparations, if you

18 want to reserve the right to call him -- all preparations should

19 be -- should continue such that the Prosecution would be fully prepared to

20 cross-examine General Galic, if he will be called. So it's a matter of

21 reserving the right. That's what you asked for. And the Chamber has

22 decided that you're allowed to do so if full opportunity will be given to

23 prepare for testimony. And you know the date, before the expert

24 witnesses, which is rather soon.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, by way of clarification, I assume that

1 that means that in the case of the accused, the seven-day notice doesn't

2 apply. If the Defence is to have its options open up until the last

3 moment --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They should enable the Prosecution to

5 prepare -- well, I mean, finally if -- even when the last witness --

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

8 -- Will have testified. And at that moment the Defence will

9 decide that it's refraining from calling General Galic, they could do that

10 up till that very moment.

11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please -- Ms. Pilipovic, would you

13 have further questions to the witness?

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [No interpretation]

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not surprised by it.

16 There might be some more questions before you will be

17 cross-examined by the Prosecution.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. DP36, before the break we were talking about the abuse of the

20 humanitarian aid convoys. And I asked you -- I asked you about one

21 specific incident. So my question to you now is: During your tour of

22 duty as assistant chief for morale, did you ever receive information that

23 a humanitarian aid convoy had been abused in an area where its unfettered

24 passage to the city of Sarajevo had been authorised? So did you

25 personally receive such information? If not, did you hear about it? And

1 if you did hear it, then who did you hear it from?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. Leading, compound questions,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would not lead, please, Ms. Pilipovic,

6 that would be far better.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll put the question to the witness.

9 You referred to the book of Sefer Halilovic in respect of the

10 abuse of humanitarian aid convoys. What would you know about it, apart

11 from these books? What information did you get while performing your

12 duties?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally, I did not receive this

14 information. But this information arrived at the corps command from the

15 Ilidza Brigade, and that is how I was -- how I knew about this

16 information, and it was also shown on television.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you say you didn't receive the information but it

18 arrived at the corps command and that's how you knew about it, how did the

19 information come from the corps command to you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you learned that at the

21 morning briefings.

22 JUDGE ORIE: During the meetings, you were orally informed about

23 these events; is that --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: What exactly was told to you about the incident you

1 heard about? How many were there? -- Perhaps as a first question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did not always learn of

3 these incidents. I learnt about that incident which happened at Ilidza.

4 But there were a number of such incidents. But I was no longer interested

5 in it, but there were abuses.

6 JUDGE ORIE: This incident in Ilidza, what did you learn about

7 that during the meeting?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no details presented at

9 the briefings. Only the report said that with the humanitarian food

10 delivery, ammunition was found there, and it was shown on television.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You watched that television clip, or were you

12 told that it was on television?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I saw it on the evening

14 news. It had nothing to do with interest or whatever. One could see it

15 in the evening, on television.

16 JUDGE ORIE: There were no further details provided during the

17 briefing or during the meeting you attended, apart from what you just told

18 us?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that was when this particular

20 case was concerned. Other cases I wasn't present, so I cannot speak about

21 them. But be that as it may, information about the violation and abuse of

22 humanitarian aid kept coming, and I wasn't taking decisions as to what we

23 should do about such abuses intended to reinforce the combat preparedness

24 of the Muslim forces.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that no further details were

1 given during this meeting on the Ilidza incident?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. DP36, can you tell us, since you told us there were a number

6 of such incidents, who was it that reported at the morning briefings about

7 events about what had happened in the territory of the Ilidza Brigade?

8 A. Well, the main report was submitted by the chief of staff.

9 Q. Do you remember the contents of such reports that the chief of

10 staff submitted to the commander at the morning briefings?

11 A. Well, these reports were submitted every day, and they varied from

12 one day to the other. I cannot remember the details.

13 Q. I'm only asking you about the abuses of humanitarian relief.

14 A. Whenever such incidents occurred, the corps commander was informed

15 about them.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

18 questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mundis, are you ready to cross-examine the

20 witness?

21 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

24 Q. Witness, within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps operational staff, can

25 you tell us from the position that you held, your chain of command

1 upwards.

2 A. I don't understand. Upward?

3 Q. To whom did you report, sir?

4 A. I accounted to assistant commander for morale. But since as of

5 July, I was in the north-western part of the front, I was subordinated to

6 the tactical group commander, and that's that.

7 Q. Sir, when you say "the assistant commander for morale," was that

8 person Captain Radomir Visnjic?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. What was the name of the person on the operational staff that you

11 reported to?

12 A. His name was Kosovac.

13 Q. Sir, do you know why the Vogosca Tactical Group was established?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that qualification

15 about criminal information, I'd like to support with additional facts when

16 it comes to cumulative information. So cumulative information was about

17 the violations and non-compliance with cease-fire agreements. In

18 Vogosca --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Whether evidence is cumulative or not is for the

20 Chamber to decide, because we know what evidence we heard and you might

21 not be aware of all the evidence this Chamber heard. So would you please

22 answer the question whether you know why the Vogosca Tactical Group was

23 established.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am, I assure you. But I wanted to

25 provide you with specific information which you probably did not get from

1 other witnesses, Mr. President. But now I will answer the question of the

2 Prosecutor.

3 That group was formed, and it was of a temporary, provisional

4 group, an ad hoc group, and it was formed in order to strengthen the

5 defence of that particular axis, of that direction, to make the deployment

6 of forces more forceful and more rational, because they were few in

7 strength and they were both physically and mentally exhausted and it had

8 no other purpose. So it was ad hoc in nature, and its commander was made

9 of and strengthened with the staff from the corps, with personnel from the

10 corps.

11 MR. MUNDIS:

12 Q. Witness, do you know when the Vogosca Tactical Group was

13 established?

14 A. I was ordered to report there on the 11th of July, and the

15 decision to form it was taken one or two days before that. I wouldn't

16 know the exact date, but I suppose it was sometime in the beginning of

17 July.

18 Q. And that was 1993; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the time when the Vogosca Tactical Group was formed, what was

21 the name and rank of the commanding officer of that unit?

22 A. The commander was Lieutenant Colonel Josipovic.

23 Q. Which units were subordinated to the Vogosca Tactical Group when

24 it was established?

25 A. It was made of Vogosca Brigade, Ilijas Brigade, and brigades on

1 their flanks which were not brigades in terms of formations but they were

2 called "brigades." They were more like battalions, and they were Rajlovac

3 and Kosevo Brigades.

4 Q. You told us earlier this morning that these units were in the most

5 critical zone of the corps. Do you remember saying that?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I

8 would ask that the witness be shown the map which has been marked

9 P3644.DP36. And I would ask that that be placed on the ELMO, please.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you indicate what part. It's a rather large

11 map.

12 MR. MUNDIS: I would like the witness -- perhaps he can assist the

13 usher in showing the part of the map where the Vogosca Tactical Group was

14 operating.

15 Q. Witness, on the map that you have before you, do you see the areas

16 where the Vogosca Tactical Group was operating?

17 A. I know exactly the positions and front lines, but this map -- I'm

18 slightly short-sighted. I can't see it quite clearly, but I can answer

19 those questions orally, without the map, since I know all the boundaries,

20 areas of responsibility and all that. It was from Pilicara, Brijesce to

21 Grdonj feature in this part here --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please speak into the

23 microphone, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Towards Sarajevo, which belongs

25 to the Muslim side.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps turn to the microphone. And

2 perhaps the usher could assist, because you are bending over to

3 the -- yes.

4 And could you please slow down so that every word will be

5 translated.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry that I cannot point at it

7 on the map, because the map is not sufficiently clear. But I can tell you

8 orally.

9 So in the west, the last point was Pilicara, the so-called

10 Pilicara railway depot. And that was its right-hand line. And the last

11 left-hand side was at the Grdonj feature that was next to Mrkovic. And

12 then on towards Visoko, its responsibility extended from so-called

13 Stijena, which is below Ostrik feature and Crkvica, northward to north,

14 north-west. Then following the Bosna River and then across Cemerska Mount

15 almost to Zvijesda Mount. That was the area of responsibility of that

16 tactical group and it was quite long.

17 Q. Approximately how long was the front line that this tactical group

18 had responsibility for?

19 A. Towards the part of the city which belonged to Sarajevo. I

20 believe that this front line was about 18 kilometres. And the one towards

21 north, north-west, it was much longer and it was close to 80 kilometres.

22 I cannot be quite exact because the lines were -- zigzagged. They went up

23 dales and down vales, but they were close to 70 kilometres on both sides.

24 Q. I'm still not clear, witness. Was it as you have described

25 effectively two fronts or was it the most critical zone in the corps for

1 some other reason or reasons, perhaps?

2 A. To begin with, the Muslim lines were the closest to each other.

3 That is, above the road from Semizovac to Nisici plateau on Greda, which

4 is feature Lipa and then along the mountain saddle, Mosevacko Hill, that

5 was held by Muslim forces which were threatening and targeting the road

6 which led to Nisici plateau. From that frontline, that is above the

7 Semizovac-Nisici plateau road to the front line Hotonj to Mrkovici as the

8 crow flies is less than 4 kilometres, so that is the line of their

9 approach was almost 80 kilometres. And the Muslim forces could threaten

10 us there and cut it off very easily, and then this whole western part of

11 the area with almost 100.000 people could have been easily cut off and

12 completely isolated from the Romanija plateau.

13 Q. Witness, you told us that among your responsibilities were

14 standing duty in the corps command. Do you remember telling us that?

15 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Within the corps, what were the qualifications to stand duty as

17 the duty officer?

18 A. For somebody to stand duty as a duty officer, he naturally had to

19 have graduated from the military academy, and it was also highly desirable

20 to have come out from the higher military academy, and those with higher

21 military knowledge, they were chief duty officers. But there were also

22 cases that we had as duty officer people who were lieutenant colonels.

23 Yet they were up to that kind of duty, because they had sufficient -- they

24 had had sufficient training and education.

25 Q. Witness, to the best of your recollection, how many officers in

1 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps on the operational staff met those

2 qualifications?

3 A. Well, these are different values. Some were more capable; some

4 were less capable. But more or less we were all capable of serving as

5 duty officers and monitoring the situation on the ground because we had to

6 know the situation in the field in order to be able to propose operative

7 solutions.

8 Q. Can you please provide for the Trial Chamber the names and ranks

9 of any other officers within the operational staff of the corps who also

10 stood that duty, to the best of your recollection.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am a protected

12 witness after all, and I cannot answer these questions. I have -- I am up

13 to a number of problems in my life, and I have very many difficulties to

14 grapple with.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session, that the answer

16 becomes known to the Prosecution but not to the outside world. Is that

17 what you would prefer?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll turn into private session.

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1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE ORIE: And it's confirmed on my screen.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Excuse me. Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Witness, you told us this morning that you attended morning

7 briefings at the corps. Do you recall approximately how many such

8 briefings you may have attended?

9 A. I already said at the beginning. It was possible for me not to go

10 to those meetings, but the general always asked me to come. He thought

11 that I was an educated man. An educated man should attend those meetings.

12 And he asked me to attend the meetings, which I accepted. It was some

13 sort of recognition.

14 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you: The question was how many you

15 would attend. You've explained why you attended but have given no answer

16 to the question. May I again ask you to carefully listen to the question

17 and answer the question. If there's any additional information you

18 certainly asked about or if it's really of vital importance, tell us. But

19 first of all concentrate on what you were specifically asked for. The

20 question was: How many, approximately?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we take the number of 100, then I

22 was at 80 per cent of those briefings.

23 MR. MUNDIS:

24 Q. Just so I'm clear, Witness, you estimate that you attended 80 such

25 morning briefings.

1 A. 80 per cent of such meetings.

2 JUDGE ORIE: But you also told us that there were approximately

3 100 meetings. And 80 per cent of 100 is 80, to my knowledge. But if you

4 would disagree, please tell us.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't count the number of

6 briefings. They took place every day when the general was in the corps

7 command. And out of all those meetings, I went to 80 per cent of them. I

8 didn't say there were 100 such meetings. The morning meetings were

9 obligatory. These briefings were given by the general every day when he

10 was in the command.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And again, your first answer was, "If we take the

12 number of 100, then I was at 80 per cent of those briefings." A

13 percentage is irrespective of the original number, as you might know, so

14 how many -- the simple question is: Approximately how many of those

15 briefings you attended? Would it be 20, 40, 60, 150? Just give us an

16 approximate number of how many of these meetings you attended. That's

17 what you were asked for.

18 Ms. Pilipovic -- or is there a translation problem?

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to avoid any

20 confusion, with your permission, perhaps we should just mention the time

21 that Mr. DP36 spent in the corps command.

22 JUDGE ORIE: He was just asked how many of these meetings he

23 attended. I take it that it was when he was at the corps command.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That's clear to me. The question

25 is clear to me, but --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would like just to have an answer to the

2 questions put to you. So how many of these, approximately, of these

3 meetings you attended?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was in the corps for three

5 months, whenever I was there -- but often I was in the field. It could

6 have been 30 or 40, but perhaps even 60 times during that three-month

7 period.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Were all of the meetings that you attended at the corps held at

11 the Lukavica barracks, in the headquarters of the corps, in that building?

12 A. That was the only place where morning briefings were held in the

13 corps command. That's as far as the corps is concerned. But when I was

14 in Vogosca, the general came on several occasions to Vogosca to our

15 meetings with the tactical group.

16 Q. On how many occasions do you recall the general coming to the

17 briefings at the Vogosca Tactical Group? Can you be more specific than

18 several?

19 A. More than ten times, two or three times a month.

20 Q. During the time that you were with the Vogosca Tactical Group and

21 General Galic came, do you recall on each of these occasions approximately

22 how long he stayed in the area of responsibility of the Vogosca Tactical

23 Group?

24 A. He came to the north-western part. And since that was the only

25 route, the command of the tactical group would be the first place. He

1 would stay there as long as he thought it was fit. Then he'd go to

2 Ilidza, Hadzici, Rakovica. He would meet the commander. They would speak

3 to each other. They would meet alone as commanders. He wanted to be

4 familiar with the entire situation in the area.

5 Q. So that we're clear on this, Witness, when General Galic would

6 come and meet with the commanders, you're telling us that he would meet

7 alone with the commanders, one on one, during these visits?

8 A. That's not what I said. When he came, he would speak to the

9 commander. But later he would call everyone and then there would be a

10 briefing, a reporting. They would inform on the situation. But naturally

11 before the meeting, he would speak to the commander. Not everyone had to

12 be present.

13 Q. Well, Witness, I'll read back what the transcript said. It

14 said -- this is line 21, page 58. "He would meet the commander. They

15 would speak to each other. They would meet alone as commanders." Did

16 General Galic meet one on one, alone with the brigade commanders of these

17 brigades that you've mentioned, in these locations you've mentioned?

18 A. I don't think he ever met them alone in an official capacity.

19 Q. Witness, let's return now to the meetings that occurred -- the

20 corps briefings that occurred at Lukavica barracks. During the meetings

21 that you were present at at which General Galic presided, do you ever

22 recall the topic of protests concerning unlawful shelling being discussed

23 at those meetings?

24 A. I don't remember that, but I do remember how the general reacted

25 towards the end of the month of May. I think it was Saturday or Sunday.

1 I don't know for certain. I know how he reacted when his command was

2 subjected to mortar shelling from Kovaci, and Butmir he asked for

3 General Indjic to be found urgently and to contact UNPROFOR, to caution

4 UNPROFOR, to have UNPROFOR caution the Muslim side that they had started

5 shelling us for no reason while we were in the command.

6 Mr. President, if I may go into additional details.

7 Q. Witness, let me just ask you a couple of questions about this so

8 that I understand. General Galic was in his command headquarters which

9 then received incoming fire? Is that right?

10 A. That they were exposed to mortar shelling, that there was an

11 attack. I was there. We were all there.

12 Q. And General Galic's response was to contact UNPROFOR to relay this

13 information to the opposing side; is that right?

14 A. Yes, yes. And that's why Major Indjic had to react very rapidly

15 in order to prevent the situation from escalating. But that's not how it

16 ended. Afterwards there was an attack and the road between Lukavica and

17 Pale was cut off by the Muslim forces.

18 Q. Witness --

19 A. At the part near Vidikovac on Trebevic.

20 Q. Witness, let me just ask you a couple more questions about this.

21 Was -- based on your understanding of this situation in which

22 General Galic contacted Major Indjic -- did General Galic consider that

23 his command headquarters was not a legitimate military target; yes or no?

24 A. No, he didn't think that. The corps command is a legitimate

25 target, but not if there is a truce which is in force. That was a hidden

1 attack -- a concealed attack in order to cut off the road from Lukavica to

2 Pale on Trebevic and to draw attention to other things. That was done on

3 that day and it was very difficult for us to re-establish that route in

4 order to have a passage to Pale.

5 Q. Witness, let me return to the meeting --

6 A. It was in order to disturb the functioning of the command.

7 Q. Let me return to the meetings at Lukavica barracks. At these

8 meetings in which both yourself and General Galic were in attendance, did

9 you ever hear anyone at any of these of these meetings discuss protests

10 concerning the unlawful sniping of civilians on the other side of the

11 confrontation line; yes or no?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Witness, at any time, at any location, did you ever hear

14 General Galic complain about protests that he received from any source

15 concerning unlawful shelling; yes or no?

16 A. Yes. He did that through the liaison officer.

17 Q. I'm talking now about General Galic complaining about protests he

18 received concerning shelling by forces under General Galic's control into

19 the territory held by the opposing side. Did you hear him complain about

20 protests that he received?

21 A. No, I didn't hear anything about such protests being discussed. I

22 don't know what you mean. That his forces were fighting in the town? Is

23 that what you mean? Could you repeat the question.

24 Q. Well, let me try to rephrase the question. Did General Galic ever

25 complain to you or in your presence about protests that he received from

1 the United Nations about unlawful shelling of Bosnian Muslim civilians?

2 And when I say "complain about these protests," for example, he may have

3 said something along the lines of "this is unfair. We're being subjected

4 to these protests without a basis," et cetera. Did he ever vocalise a

5 complaint about protests that he received concerning shelling?

6 A. I can't answer that question because I wasn't present in such

7 situations, but I do know that he didn't receive -- so I don't know how to

8 answer that question. It wasn't for me to discuss this matter. All I

9 know is that the general never mentioned that the urban part of the town

10 should be shelled. He never even thought about this. And I can confirm

11 this because on one occasion we spoke at length, and I saw that there was

12 no animosity on the part of the general, neither on an ethnic basis or a

13 religious basis towards the enemy side. It would have not been logical

14 for him to order someone to be shelled. So I never heard anything about

15 this from him.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me be clear. There seems to be some

17 misunderstanding. Let me put the question to you in a different way. Did

18 you ever hear that General Galic, for example, said, "They're blaming us

19 for shelling civilians without any good basis for that"? So was there

20 ever any complaint by General Galic on either UNPROFOR blaming your forces

21 for illegal violence against civilians? I'm not talking about whether

22 these would be complaints that were justified or not but whether there was

23 ever any mentioning made of "they're blaming us for..." Not whether

24 General Galic ordered such attacks, not whether they were true or not, but

25 whether he ever expressed that he was ...

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that. That can

2 only be the field of the liaison officers who have to deal with UNPROFOR.

3 They could answer that question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just quite -- be quite clear to you. The

5 question was not whether ever such complaints have been lodged, but the

6 question was whether you ever heard General Galic expressing whatever on

7 such complaints. That is not a question that could only be answered by

8 liaison officers. That is a question about whether you ever heard

9 General Galic expressing himself on such complaints in whatever way,

10 either by complaining about that these complaints were lodged or

11 discussing the -- whatever.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear anything about those

13 protests, and I know nothing about it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Witness, a few moments ago it appears from the transcript that you

17 started a sentence and then didn't finish it. You said, "I do know that

18 he didn't receive." Do you recall what you were referring to when you

19 said "I do know that he didn't receive"?

20 A. At morning briefings we never heard anything about any protests

21 which had been forwarded to our side by UNPROFOR or through other

22 channels.

23 Q. You're telling us, Witness, that you -- at no point in time did

24 you ever hear a discussion about protests from the UN or UNPROFOR?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Witness, earlier this morning in response to a question from

2 Ms. Pilipovic -- the question was: "Did you at any time receive a protest

3 from UNPROFOR according to which an incident had happened in a certain

4 part of the town in which civilians had died?" The answer was: "I never

5 received such information, nor was this the practice. There was a liaison

6 officer who received such information and then forwarded it to higher

7 organs, and we would then receive information from the commander and his

8 chief." You're telling us that that information was not discussed at the

9 morning briefings?

10 A. No, we didn't discuss it. We were simply always told that we have

11 to observe the truce and that we should never be those who start the

12 first, and we abided by this principle.

13 Q. Witness, when you said this morning "There was a liaison officer

14 who received such information and then forwarded it to higher organs,"

15 which higher organs did the liaison officer forward this information to?

16 A. I can't say that with full certainty. All I can say is that I

17 assume that it is normal for it to go upper, first to the corps command

18 and then to upper echelons. I never went to inquire about this with the

19 liaison officer.

20 Q. Well, Witness, you then said: "Then we would then receive

21 information from the commander." When you said "the commander," you were

22 referring to the corps command, General Galic; isn't that right?

23 A. Yes. I don't know what is contentious about this. The general

24 makes a decision based on the information which doesn't have to be

25 disclosed to us, and he requires that we obey the order issued by him.

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. Is this the

2 approximate time we break?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this would be a suitable moment for you for

4 the break, then we'll adjourn until ten minutes to 1.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

6 --- Upon resuming at 12.54 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be brought into the courtroom again.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Witness, I suggest to you that there was a plan of the Sarajevo

11 Romanija Corps to deliberately and indiscriminately target civilians on

12 the other side of the confrontation line. Do you agree or disagree with

13 that statement?

14 A. I absolutely disagree. I do not believe that there was such a

15 plan. Had I known about the existence of that plan, I would have never

16 joined the corps.

17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

18 time, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

20 Is there any need to re-examine the witness?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- In view of what the testimony was?

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you, Mr. DP36. You have

25 told us this morning about an operative encirclement. What do you exactly

1 understand by that term?

2 A. The war theory recognises tactics, operative and theory as a

3 strategy. A zone held by a corps is usually a zone of operative

4 significance. And in view of the forces that were positioned in the

5 north-westerly area, they held an area that was of an operational

6 significance and was resolving the strategic issue concerning Sarajevo.

7 So that was a large area, with the fall of which many things would have

8 been disturbed concerning the way we waged war at the time, defensive

9 [Realtime transcript read in error "offensive"] war.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us this morning about a view you would

11 have from the Lukavica barracks. You said if you would go out, you could,

12 depending on the time of the year, see parts of Dobrinja. And then you

13 said that Mojmilo would take the view -- would be -- would obstruct the

14 view. Did you then refer to the view from Lukavica to the city of

15 Sarajevo?

16 A. The question asked was whether from the command post of

17 General Galic there was a view of the city of Sarajevo. I said that one

18 couldn't see Sarajevo because above Lukavica there was Mojmilo rising in

19 the middle, and one could only see a part of Dobrinja only when there were

20 no leaves on the trees that could obstruct the view. Basically, only in

21 the fall and in winter. From Lukavica, one can normally see Butmir,

22 Hrasnica, and the area close Ilidza. Physically, it's impossible to see

23 Sarajevo. The largest part of Sarajevo, the core of it, was held by the

24 Muslims.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us this morning that you had never

1 seen any snipers within the armed forces you belonged to and you didn't

2 wish to see them because they were terrible. May I first ask you: What

3 do you exactly understand by "snipers"?

4 A. A sniper is not a special kind of weapon. It is any weapon with

5 an optical view that would assist in aiming. An optical device can be

6 placed on a calibre greater than 7.6. It can be placed on 12.7, which is

7 a greater calibre with a greater range. And larger units have special

8 devices. This is a matter of the weaponry that an army can have, any army

9 in the world.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you said that snipers were terrible, that

11 you didn't want to see them, could you please explain that. And I would

12 like to inform you that we heard evidence on two issues: First of all,

13 that the use of snipers and/or sniper rifles is not uncommon in military

14 units; and the second is that there has been some evidence that units

15 would have snipers in your armed forces. And I'd like to add that

16 sometimes sniping is referred to as firing from a distance from a

17 concealed position with rifles. Could you please, in view of what I just

18 told you, comment on the absence of, I would say, whatever sniper activity

19 as I understood your testimony to be.

20 A. I firmly assert that in the corps command I never saw anybody with

21 an aiming device on a weapon.

22 Second, as I toured the trenches in the positions held by

23 operative tactical group Vogosca, I also never saw weapons with optical

24 aiming devices. I only saw modified devices such as periscope, which was

25 used to view feature 830, 850, and that was not a combat device. It was a

1 periscope used by submarine in order to observe the area, because there

2 was a constant threat of an infantry attack.

3 In addition to that, when I toured front lines, in the Vogosca

4 area from the eastern gate -- at the eastern gate I received information

5 from the platoon commander that during one year in the area where Sucur

6 houses were located, some 40 civilians and soldiers were killed by small

7 arms weapons. I was not interested in investigating the issue of snipers,

8 because I personally believe that it is an inhuman way of waging a war,

9 using snipers. And I repeat: I never saw them while touring the

10 positions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever become aware of any criticism from the

12 outside world - and I put it to you as wide as possible - on the use of

13 sniper activities in your armed forces?

14 A. Mr. President, I learned about some anti-sniper agreement from the

15 book of Sir Michael Rose. I wish to confirm your beliefs that the

16 campaign was a monstrous campaign that was in contradiction with the

17 reality.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just correct you. I did not express whatever

19 belief. This monstrous campaign you're talking about, could you tell

20 us - because you didn't mention that before - what was that campaign?

21 What do you know about it?

22 A. I can claim this with a first-hand competency because I studied

23 this. This campaign was led on 1993 levels: Tactical, operative, and

24 strategic one. Strategic propaganda is waged by statesmen generally. And

25 this campaign affected us because it claimed that we were aggressors. I

1 said to the French officer, commander of the battalion in Rajlovac, where

2 I went many times -- I asked him whether I was an aggressor if I remained

3 in my home area defending the house in which I was born. So this was a

4 strategic campaign claiming that we were aggressors.

5 The next issue was that we were terrible bad guys going around

6 raping and killing and that we had killed some 200.000 Muslims. And this

7 had a very bad resonance in the world where we were proclaimed to be

8 really bad guys.

9 At the tactical level, this campaign was reduced to deception

10 spread out that our lines had been broken through in order to make sure

11 that a panic ensued in our operative area, and the situation for the

12 residents was quite difficult. We had on many occasions to go into the

13 field to assure -- reassure the population that the lines had not been

14 broken and to prevent the panic from being spread out. This is what I can

15 say about this propaganda.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that part of the propaganda was that you

17 were the aggressors and that you discussed this with a French officer.

18 Was that an UNPROFOR officer or ...?

19 A. UNPROFOR officer.

20 JUDGE ORIE: When did you discuss this?

21 A. I talked to him in 1994. They were stationed in Rajlovac. I

22 think the deputy commander of the battalion was Henri. We talked in

23 general about history. I could tell that he knew a lot about history, and

24 then I put this question to him, and he told me that he would have done

25 the same thing; he would have gone back to his hometown and defended. And

1 if you wish, you can bring him here so that we can clarify this.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell me the name of that French

3 officer.

4 A. Henri, Henry. He had quite a neutral attitude. He listened to

5 me, and I believe that he understood me.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Was that his first name or his last name?

7 A. I can't tell you that, whether that was his first name or his last

8 name. That was quite a while ago, in 1994. I didn't take any notes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Did I correctly understand your testimony to be that

10 you asked him this question as whether he would consider someone in your

11 position as an aggressor because that was what the propaganda war told you

12 you were?

13 A. Yes. I asked him whether I was an aggressor, if I remained in my

14 home area.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You were inspired to put that question to him because

16 that's what the propaganda said you were; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell me where and when did you hear

19 the propaganda telling you that your armed forces were the aggressors.

20 A. Propaganda was present all the time. Unfortunately, it is so

21 today, and there is constant talk of aggressors, aggression, and so on.

22 Today's press - and I recently read it - still depicts us as aggressors.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have access to those propaganda sources at

24 that time, and what were they?

25 A. Main sources of such propaganda was the highest echelon of the

1 Muslim forces, Ganic, Silajdzic, and so on. I listened to that dozens of

2 time. I read it in the press and I heard it on television myself.

3 Your Honours, Mr. President, one can still find that in press

4 nowadays.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us in what press, on what

6 television did you see that.

7 A. Official television of Sarajevo and their press.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you to refer to media sources on the

9 BiH side?

10 A. Yes. And this has been going on continually. There wasn't just

11 isolated instances. This propaganda is alive today, and it still depicts

12 us as aggressors.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is that limited to what I would call the BiH sources,

14 or has it been adopted by other media as well?

15 A. Those were mostly propaganda activities waged by those republics

16 that seceded from the former Yugoslavia.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And outside the former Yugoslavia?

18 A. I think that the International Community doesn't use that term any

19 more. I assume that it will give its final word.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You say "doesn't use that term any more." Did they

21 use it in your -- according to your knowledge?

22 A. They did use it, and one can see evidence of that in the book of

23 General Rose. It had its certain objectives in order to win over some

24 other --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm especially interested in media sources. Were you

1 aware of international media sources at the time of the conflict when you

2 were performing your duties, or did you only learn about them after the

3 conflict?

4 A. No. I followed that during the conflict. International media

5 were openly in favour of the Muslim side, and they glorified and presented

6 things in a manner that was quite in contradiction with the reality on the

7 ground.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You say you followed these international media at

9 that time. What media would you follow? Television or newspapers or

10 whatever sources do you have in mind you followed at that time?

11 A. Those were the sources that were selected from what was available

12 internationally by the television. I wasn't in the position to read

13 foreign press during the war. I don't speak languages well enough in

14 order to be able to read. However, this is a matter of common knowledge.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You say "not -- "you could not read it in the

16 newspapers by yourself but you observed it on -- that were selected by

17 television. Could you tell us what kind of sources these were that were

18 selected and broadcasted, as I understand you, by television.

19 A. Leading media outlets which have monopoly on the international

20 scene and which the propaganda in Sarajevo skillfully used by taking

21 things out of context and so on in order to undermine the morale of the

22 Serb people in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us any names of any media that were

24 selected and subsequently broadcasted and came to your knowledge? If you

25 don't know the names, then of course you can't tell us.

1 A. I don't know, and I don't wish to go into any further discussions.

2 But this is a fact.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm just asking questions, and I'm not

4 discussing with you. You say it's a fact. Was part of that media or, as

5 you called it, propaganda campaign also the Serbs to -- the Bosnian Serbs

6 to be blamed for sniping civilians in Sarajevo?

7 A. There definitely was such a campaign.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever discuss this propaganda with any of your

9 colleagues or within the corps?

10 A. I did not discuss this. Most of the people concluded that this is

11 how it was. We were simply disappointed by that campaign because it was

12 so unrealistic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If I understand you well, that since everyone in your

14 environment would know for sure that it was unrealistic that that was the

15 reason why you didn't discuss it among yourselves.

16 A. Mr. President, these are merely some reflections of the very hard

17 situation that has existed there for thousands of years. And we were

18 confident that had anything happened of truly disastrous proportions, it

19 would not have been us to blame for that. Because there is a certain

20 mindset which is deeply rooted in the tradition of the three peoples

21 living there, and that is immense mistrust, and that was the main reason

22 why all those things happened. Because, you see, when the propaganda

23 conveys something that is not true, it provokes the revolt on the other

24 side, and so on and so forth, but we simply ignored this propaganda

25 because we knew that it did not reflect the reality.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers.

2 Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your leave, the Prosecution would

4 respectfully request to ask one or two questions arising from questions

5 put by Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As usual, you are allowed to -- but limited to

7 those issues raised by the Bench

8 Further cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

9 Q. Witness, in response to a question from the Presiding Judge, you

10 told us that you personally believe that sniping is an inhuman way of

11 waging war. I have just one or two questions about that. Let me focus

12 not on snipers targeting civilians but the use of snipers as legitimate

13 means of conducting arms conflict.

14 For example, if you were seeking to take out or to engage a sniper

15 on the other side of the confrontation line, wouldn't using a sniper be a

16 more humane way of attacking that opposing force than, say, mortar or

17 artillery fire, which could kill more than the intended victim or target?

18 A. As a matter of fact, these situations require adequate solutions.

19 I, therefore, cannot answer this question whether I would then -- because

20 the state of war is not an ordinary state, and I wasn't in a situation to

21 take a decision if that happened, how to eliminate a sniper on the other

22 side. I'm talking now from a big distance, but it is up to the commander

23 how to neutralise such a man. But one should not use inadequate or

24 excessive means in response, but I am not aware of the cases for something

25 like that that was targeted with a gun or something.

1 Q. Well, certainly it would seem that the use of a sniper rifle to

2 target an enemy sniper would not be excessive, given the relatively high

3 degree of accuracy of such a weapon in the hands of a qualified sniper.

4 Do you agree with that?

5 A. I mean, it is a pretty hypothetical question to begin with. I was

6 not in a situation to take such a decision. I didn't know there were any

7 snipers who could do that. So it is a hypothetical question. It is a

8 theoretical issue that we can discuss it. It happened in the

9 battle -- the Stalingrad battle where the snipers competed who would

10 destroy more people on the other side.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. MUNDIS: No other questions, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It's just for the sake of the transcript.

14 When answering the first question of Judge Orie involving the operative

15 encirclement, you said the following: "So that was a large area with the

16 fall of which many things would have been disturbed concerning the way we

17 waged war at the time, offensive war." My question is whether you said

18 "offensive war" or "defensive war."

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said twice that General Morillon,

20 when I talked with him, that the general said that he was never intent on

21 waging an offensive war --

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is -- because the transcript says

23 that you mentioned "offensive war." I would like to --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no. That is a mistake.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's also my recollection that --

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes --

2 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters orally said "defensive war" and that

3 it must be a mistake in the transcript.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Defensive, defensive, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness DP36, this concludes your testimony in

6 this court. You have answered all the questions of the parties and

7 remaining questions of the Bench. I'd like to thank you very much for

8 coming the long way to The Hague and answering all these questions, and I

9 wish you a safe return trip.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, once the curtains have been pulled

12 down, the witness may be escorted out of the courtroom.

13 As far as the exhibits are concerned, I take it, Mr. Mundis, that

14 you do not insist on the map?

15 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please guide us through the other

17 documents, Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1837, pseudonym sheet under seal;

19 Exhibit --

20 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may be escorted out of the courtroom.

21 We -- I hope you -- yes.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar. Yes.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D348/3, video; Exhibit D348/3A, English

25 transcript of video; Exhibit D348/12, videotape -- and a correction to the

1 previous number given. The transcript is D348/12A.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since there are no objections, these videos and

3 documents are admitted into evidence.

4 But Madam Registrar, is there any pseudonym sheet?

5 THE REGISTRAR: That was the first one.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's the first one. Oh, yes. Yes. It's before I

7 interrupted you. Yes. I apologise.

8 Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could. I should have risen

10 slightly earlier. With respect to the videotape and the transcript, again

11 we would respectfully request that it be limited to that portion of the

12 tape and transcript which was shown in the courtroom and not the remaining

13 parts of the transcript or videotape.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I see, Ms. Pilipovic, that you are nodding, that you

15 would agree that the admission is partial to the sense that only those

16 parts shown and the corresponding part of the transcript is standard and,

17 is therefore, admitted into evidence.

18 Then is the Prosecution -- is the Defence ready to call its next

19 witness?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just see. We -- I take it that we first

22 have to --

23 Ms. Pilipovic, I do understand that there are no protective

24 measures sought for your next witness. Is that correct?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the curtains may be raised, the screen may

2 be removed.

3 Perhaps we could already -- if the curtains are raised, that we

4 could perhaps already ask the witness to be brought in so that we can make

5 a start.

6 Mr. Mundis.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, as Ms. Mahindaratne will be taking

8 this witness, may I be excused from the courtroom?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, I'd like to hear whether the Russian

14 interpretation is available at this very moment.

15 THE INTERPRETER: We hope so, Your Honour. We hope that there is

16 an interpreter in the Russian booth.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Russian channel, one, two, three. The Russian

18 interpreter is ready.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

20 Can you hear me in a language you understand?

21 Is the witness on the right channel, Madam Usher?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I hear you. I speak English.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You speak English. Do you prefer to testify in

24 English or do you prefer to testify in your own language.

25 THE WITNESS: It's better for me to speak English.

1 JUDGE ORIE: You prefer to speak English. Whenever there is any

2 doubt as to whether you -- your mastering of the English language, both in

3 understanding what others say and by expressing yourself, would you please

4 inform me immediately because there is Russian interpretation available

5 and the Chamber would highly deplore if whatever detail of your testimony

6 would be lost by linguistic problems. Yes?

7 It's still your preference to testify in English, I do believe.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then before giving testimony in this court, the

10 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

11 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 May I invite you to stand up and make that solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: SERGEY MOROZ

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

17 You'll first be examined by counsel for the Defence.

18 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. I'd first like to ask you to introduce yourself to us. So would

22 you please give us your full name.

23 A. I am Sergey Moroz. What, address? Nothing else? What should I

24 specify, please?

25 Q. I'd like you to tell us what kind of education you have and where

1 do you live. When I say "education," I mean did you ever receive any

2 military training and education?

3 A. I graduated from the military institute. I am professional

4 military, retired lieutenant colonel. So now I live in Kiev. I am

5 conflict administrator in Procter & Gamble, Ukraine.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moroz, you have told us that you were a lieutenant

7 colonel, that is, that you were a military man. So now, can you tell us

8 if as such you were engaged militarily between September 1992 and August

9 1994. And if so, where was that?

10 A. Since October 1993 till October 1994, I've been in UNPROFOR forces

11 in sector Sarajevo, engineer section, mission commander.

12 Q. Mr. Moroz, when you told us that you were a mission commander and

13 that you were in engaged with the engineers in the UNPROFOR headquarters,

14 could you tell us, where were you assigned -- or rather, where were you

15 stationed?

16 A. I located in PTT building in Sarajevo, headquarters of sector

17 Sarajevo. And -- well, that is all.

18 Q. Thank you. When you tell us that you were with the engineers

19 section, can you tell us, who was your immediate speed your, that is,

20 your and your service's superior?

21 A. Well, I've been to Sarajevo for 12 months. And my -- I had two

22 bosses, both Frenchmen, because Frenchmen had six months' rotation period.

23 Frankly speaking, I don't remember exactly their full names. One, as far

24 as I remember, was Patrice, and one Pierre. But frankly speaking, for me

25 it's difficult to remember French names. Sorry.

1 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us who was the UNPROFOR sector

2 commander in Sarajevo during your tour of duty there.

3 A. The greater part of my stay in Sarajevo, it was General Soubirou.

4 Q. Mr. Moroz, you told us that you were engaged with the engineers

5 section attached to the UNPROFOR forces. Can you tell us, what were your

6 tasks in that engineers section or in your department?

7 A. Well, as far as I know, such engineer section, it was rather

8 specific unit within the headquarters, because the main task of it was

9 renovation of civilian objects vitally important for both warring

10 sides -- for civilians of both warring sides. It was renovation of

11 electricity lines, sewage system, water supply, gas. And as I was mission

12 commander, my task was providing missions, projects, to renovate some of

13 utilities mentioned above.

14 Q. Thank you. When you tell us that you were the commander of the

15 mission and that your duty was to organise the work for your missions so

16 they could perform their tasks, can you tell us, who participated -- or

17 rather, whom did you hire and whom did you incorporate in the performance

18 of your missions?

19 A. So when our section got information that somewhere an object,

20 either electricity line or water line is broken, our chief

21 inspected -- section chief inspected that together with a specialist -- a

22 civilian specialist and planned that mission. When we -- when the section

23 got permission from both sides -- agreement from both warring sides - I

24 mean, both civilians and military, local commanders - I went to the spot,

25 having working teams sometimes from Muslim side, sometimes from Serbian

1 side, depending where and what type of job should be done. And we always

2 had an escort by UNPROFOR forces. Usually it was two, three APC.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, looking at the clock, I wonder whether

4 this would be a suitable moment to adjourn.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, of course.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, I would just like to ask you,

7 Mr. Moroz, whether you feel that using the English language causes you any

8 problem or whether you have any difficulties in understanding or

9 difficulties in expressing yourself.

10 THE WITNESS: Me not. Probably you do not understand me well.

11 JUDGE ORIE: My next question would be to the parties, whether

12 they would -- I take it that the interpreters are able to understand the

13 witness -- the English of the witness to such an extent that they are able

14 to translate into French and B/C/S?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the English booth cannot say.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have to switch to the French booth first,

17 whether the French interpreters have any problem in --

18 Yes. And then Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps on your channel the

19 interpreters could confirm that they are able to translate properly, and

20 perhaps you could then convey the message to ...

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then with the -- if the transcribers have no

23 problem. But from what I saw of the transcript, I don't see that there is

24 a problem.

25 Ms. Mahindaratne, you would have no problems?

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I have no problems.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think it's not necessary that the

3 Russian interpreters will come back tomorrow.

4 But I would like to know: Whenever we need them, how much time

5 would it take to have them in court again?

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will this afternoon discuss the matter

8 with the translation services and see whether presence or being on standby

9 would be sufficient and whether it's possible to organise that.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, for the next witness, I expect that we

12 would need Russian interpretation?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I expect so.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] But since Mr. Kruk is speaking, I

16 do not know what he will say, what he will prefer. But I think we should

17 have interpreters here, just in case.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at least that they should be available.

19 We'll -- on the organisational level, we'll see this afternoon

20 what has to be done or not.

21 You've been only in court for a very short time, Mr. Moroz. You

22 will understand that this was not your whole testimony, so we would like

23 to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom. And may I

24 instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony, although small,

25 you've given until now and the testimony still to be given.

1 THE WITNESS: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same

3 courtroom.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

5 at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

6 the 23rd day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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