1 Friday, 24 January 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom,
6 especially also the Russian interpreters, who managed to be here.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine its next
12 witness? And I take it that's Anatoliy Kruk?
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness
15 into the courtroom.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: While that's being done --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: -- The Defence has indicated that DP2 will be
21 testifying on Monday, DP2, who is under cross-examination pursuantly.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: What would be the status with regard to a
24 witness whose evidence will spill over to Monday? If there is an
25 overnight witness, would that witness be kept aside until DP2's evidence
1 is concluded on Monday?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I've been
4 informed, Mr. DP2 will only be here on Tuesday, and we can have an
5 agreement that if he comes on Tuesday, he can testify immediately, as soon
6 as he arrives, depending on when we are going to work. Because I asked
7 for that to be moved, considering that we had -- we have two more
8 witnesses. We didn't want him to be here and wait.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't it be wise to wait with that decision until
10 we know exactly where we stand, as I now understand, on Tuesday, if
11 another witness would take another 15 minutes or half an hour, we might
12 first finish with that witness. But if, for example, that would take
13 another day, then, of course, we might give priority to -- to the witness
14 who came for further cross-examination. So let's depend it a bit on the
15 circumstances. Is that agreeable?
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Agreeable, yes.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kruk, I take it?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. You understand me; that's at least my
21 conclusion at this moment in a language you -- you hear me in a language
22 you understand?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, I understand both languages.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I understand you both understand my English and the
25 Russian interpretation.
1 I was informed that the solemn declaration the Rules require the
2 witness to make at the beginning of his testimony, that you would be
3 willing or might even prefer to make that solemn declaration in English.
4 If you'd like it to be translated in Russian, please indicate so. If not,
5 may I then invite you to make the solemn declaration of which the text is
6 now handed out to you by the usher.
7 May I invite you to make that declaration as it appears in front
8 of you. If you would like to do it in English, the text is in front of
9 you. If you would like to do it in Russian, then it should be first
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. I will do it in English.
12 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
13 and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: ANATOLIY KRUK
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Mr. Kruk, please be seated.
16 Mr. Kruk, you'll first be examined by counsel for the Defence.
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kruk, good morning. I'm going to address
21 myself to you in French, although we have always used English in our
22 interviews. If by any chance you don't quite understand what I am saying,
23 please do not hesitate to ask me to repeat what I'm saying again. Did you
24 understand what I said?
25 A. Completely.
1 Q. Thank you very much. And then the second introductory remark I've
2 got to say is that I would be very grateful, as much as possible, in order
3 to save time if you can just answer by yes or no and we will proceed very
4 quickly. Thank you.
5 Mr. Kruk, I'd like you to, first of all, tell the Chamber what is
6 your background. And by that I mean educational and professional
7 background. Can you tell us something about it, please.
8 A. Well, in 1990, I finished military institute of foreign languages
9 in Moscow. And since, most of time, I worked as a military interpreter
10 and officer on foreign relations also.
11 Q. Very well. Could you now tell us from which period were you
12 professionally in contact with Sarajevo.
13 A. Well, I came to UNPROFOR mission on the 15th of January, 1993
14 and --
15 Q. Thank you very much. I'm going to stop you here. But we'll come
16 back to that, but before that--
17 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed, Mr. Kruk, that you're giving your
18 testimony in English. And you're entirely free to do that. But if you'd
19 like to have the questions in English as well, rather than in Russian,
20 because I can imagine that it's not easy first to hear the question in
21 Russian and then to respond in English, there is a possibility if you'd
22 prefer that, to have the questions that are put in French be translated to
23 you in English. So if you'd prefer to have English rather than Russian,
24 please indicate so and then we'll ...
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'd prefer English.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to listen to the English as well.
2 Could you then, please, Madam Usher, switch to the English
4 So now you'll hear the French of Mr. Piletta-Zanin translated into
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll do the same as we did last time, that we'll
8 first try to get some experience in how it works and then see whether the
9 presence of the Russian interpreters is needed at a full-time basis or
10 that it would be sufficient to have them stand by.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. I'm sorry I interrupted you, witness, but what I wanted is that if
14 you can tell us apart from your educational experience, what has been your
15 professional experience militarily speaking? And what I mean is your rank
16 that you had in the military administration.
17 A. Well, I started as a junior lieutenant. Then I passed all ranks,
18 military ranks. And now I am a retired lieutenant colonel. And what is
19 concerning my professional experience -- I mean, military experience: I
20 used to be a military interpreter in training centres in military
21 institutions, and I have experience in my UN mission first in Sarajevo
22 and, second, I used to be a military observer in UNTAES.
23 Q. For the transcript, witness, please, could you repeat very clearly
24 the last name that you said, the UNTAES?
25 A. UNTAES, it was former Sector East, United Nations Transition
1 Authorisation Eastern Slavonia. This was the name of UN mission. It was
2 from 1994 to 1995.
3 Q. Thank you. Before we are going to come back to the -- to speak
4 about Sarajevo, did you ever have an experience of the field? And for an
5 interpreter, that is not the same thing as for a paratrooper. But have
6 you ever had any terrain experience, field experience, in Bosnia, in
8 A. Before this mission, I did -- well, I did have combat experience.
9 It was in Afghanistan. That's why -- I believe when I came to this
10 mission, I got some combat experience.
11 Q. Very well. Witness, you told us that you were engaged in the army
12 and in combat in Afghanistan. Can you tell us what was the length -- what
13 was the duration of that experience, approximately of course.
14 A. Well, I was there two years.
15 Q. Thank you. During this experience that you had, witness - and I'm
16 going to ask you a question in order to find out your knowledge of some
17 military matters - did you have an occasion either to experience fire,
18 that is, to be faced with the reality of daily fighting and fire, or to
19 see the traces of fire, shooting, et cetera?
20 A. I saw both of what you mean. Fire, you mean incoming/outgoing
21 fire, random fire and ...
22 Q. Very well. And this experience, did it allow you to acquire
23 specific knowledge that made it possible for you to identify a certain
24 weapon through your experience, to first of all say, "Here is
25 120-millimetre calibre," or "here is another calibre"? Have you acquired
1 this kind of experience in the field before Sarajevo?
2 A. Well, as I said before, that I had enough experience to
3 distinguish heavy calibre or small arm fire or mortar, tank, and -- I came
4 with a little bit more experience than some of my French colleagues and
5 especially Egyptian colleagues. And if I may say, that in Ukraine, when
6 it comes to former Yugoslavia UN missions, they were trying to find quite
7 trained and experienced people.
8 Q. Witness, may I consider that your answer is that in effect, as far
9 as the incidence of military technique firing, you consider yourself to be
10 a man of experience?
11 The English interpretation is not quite right as to what I wanted
12 to say. What I mean -- what I meant by "reality of firing," I meant
13 reality of combat and everything that that implies.
14 A. Well, I cannot be as -- as a high-level military expert, but what
15 is concerning general things like distinguishing the kind of fire, dealing
16 with maps, just defining grids, and just -- I can say that in this -- in
17 these areas of military techniques, well, I was really good trained.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, I interrupted you earlier because I wanted us
19 first to hear what was your practical experience in these matters. And
20 when you speak of your arrival in Sarajevo, so you told us the moment when
21 you arrived in Sarajevo, and I interrupted you. But I'd like you to
22 continue. So you arrived in Sarajevo. Could you please repeat the date,
23 that is, the period when you arrived, and could you please tell us
24 about -- can you tell us when did you leave Sarajevo, when did you leave
1 A. Well, my team, there were five people. We came at 15th of
2 January, spent two days in Zagreb. Then we were delivered to Sarajevo.
3 Then we had two days of briefing in Ukrainian Battalion. And then we were
4 assigned to our -- to our military positions in HQ Sarajevo. And exactly,
5 I started my position in this HQ as an ops officer at 19th of January.
6 Q. Two observations, witness: I wanted you to tell us the year first
7 when this occurred, and also then to tell us until when you stayed there
8 and in what capacity, and in capacities, if they have changed while you
9 were in Sarajevo.
10 A. Well, it was 1993, and I left Sarajevo on the 9th of May, because
11 the day before, I was assigned to Ukrainian company as a chief of staff
12 and liaison officer for separate mission in UN safe pocket Zepa. And I
13 left Bosnia in the middle of July.
14 Q. That's still 1993, I suppose.
15 A. Yes, of course.
16 Q. Thank you. However, for the period that we are interested in more
17 specifically, which is the 17th of January, 1993 to 9th of May, 1993, has
18 there been a development or an evolution in the duties, in the tasks, that
19 you were carrying out in Sarajevo?
20 A. Well, I can say that with the system of rotation for some senior
21 officers who were our superiors, there was some changes in operations
22 procedures, and so actually for every month HQ Sarajevo got more and more
23 experience and everybody was trying to just -- to make better our work, to
24 do it more rationally and so on.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, you spoke of a team of -- consisting of five
1 people. These people, did they stay with you throughout your mission?
2 A. Affirmative.
3 Q. Indeed, yes. Thank you. And considering that some of -- would it
4 be possible for you to give their names? I'm not asking you to give their
5 names, but if it was possible would you give their names?
6 A. Well -- and there was Viktor Pascenko, Evgeni Kutuzov, Sidorenka,
7 Bazil, and those are the only names.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you. If you do not remember, that is not that
9 important. Thank you.
10 Witness, can you tell us who was the sector commander? First of
11 all, could you tell us what the sector --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me interrupt you. Getting the names in the right
13 spelling on the screen always is a bit of a problem. Would it be possible
14 that during the first break the names you just mentioned, that you write
15 them down so that those working on the transcript will have the right
17 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
19 Thank you, Mr. Kruk.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Can you tell us who was the commander of the sector.
23 A. When I came to sector Sarajevo and was assigned the ops officer,
24 the sector commander was Egyptian general Razek.
25 Q. So that the name can appear properly in the transcript -- yes. I
1 believe that that can be written either with a -- with an "I" or an "E."
2 Is that a Razik or a Razek?
3 A. "E."
4 Q. Thank you. I would now like to focus on your tasks at your post
5 in Sarajevo. Could you describe for us briefly the tasks that you had.
6 But before you do so, I'd like to put a question to you about commanding.
7 Were there any other sector commanders during that period or just before
8 or after that period that you knew, apart from the general?
9 A. Well, next sector commander who took over very soon after
10 General Razek left the sector was a French colonel. His name is
11 Valentine. Some people called him Valentine; some people called him
13 Q. Some call him Valentine, in fact.
14 Thank you. What can you tell us about your duties? What kind of
15 duties did you have to perform within the mission that you were assigned
16 in Sarajevo?
17 A. As an ops officer, I had position first duty officer, then senior
18 duty officer. My main tasks were, first of all, to follow the situation
19 in sector Sarajevo, to follow all convoys, all missions conducted at that
20 time, and to liaise with military observers, and to liaise with all
21 battalions, as well to monitor flying situation and -- actually, all,
22 everything that happened in Sector Sarajevo and where military personnel
23 were involved I was following all these. And the main thing, by the end
24 of the day I drafted a daily situation report, which was the main
25 document, formal document, which was sent to main headquarter Zagreb and
1 BH command.
2 Q. Thank you, witness. I'm now specifically interested in the
3 sources of information that you had in order to compile these reports. In
4 a minute we will show you certain examples with questions. But first of
5 all, I would like you to tell me the following: When you personally made
6 a report which you would forward to the hierarchy, what sort of
7 information did you have at your level; that is to say, in technical
8 terms, where did you obtain this information from?
9 A. Well, during day, I had a plan of missions which were to be
10 performed. And then when the missions were started, I followed liaison
11 officers of battalions and other agents like UNHCR. I followed this
12 situation and all important situations was logged in the special logbook
13 to be included in daily situation report or to prepare some report for
14 sector commander or chief of staff or senior operation officer. And some
15 important from the military point of view, things like, for example, some
16 losses in UNPROFOR personnel, it was written in official form and sent by
17 fax from battalions or delivered by hand.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you elaborate documents -- did you
19 compile documents which had to do with fire, with incoming fire and
20 outgoing fire; that is to say, fire coming from Sarajevo or entering
21 Sarajevo? Did you ever compile such documents? And if so, could you
22 provide us with the name of the document concerned.
23 A. Well, one of my missions as a mission of ops officer was to
24 monitor situation which is around PTT building where headquarter of Sector
25 Sarajevo was stationed. And if there was nearby some incoming or outgoing
1 fire, we had reports from our guards which were staying permanently in
2 front of PTT. And if we saw sometimes in our window - we had a very large
3 big window in ops room - and we saw some shelling, some explosions by our
4 own eyes, I marked it on our operational map and what is concerning other
5 reports from different UN sources. I received two times a day situation
6 reports from battalions which actually -- it's the same, daily situation
7 report, which we made in headquarter but little bit shorter, without some
8 parts. And the main source of information concerning firing and shelling
9 of Sarajevo, it was reports from UNMOs. It was so-called SHOOTREPs.
10 Q. Thank you. Witness, to clarify things, these SHOOTREPs, did they
11 reach you because this was part of your duties? And if so, did you
12 receive these SHOOTREPs regularly or not?
13 A. Well, actually, the procedure was as follows: By the end of day,
14 we -- well, when I was on duty, I drafted daily situation report for whole
15 sector. It was made on computer and then saved on a floppy. Then as
16 usual, a deputy senior military observer, it was -- as far as I remember,
17 it was, I think, Canadian -- Canadian major. He came to our office and
18 then he took these floppy disk and then took it to his office where UNMO
19 officer was present and then he added my situation daily report with their
20 form, with their UNMO form, because we didn't have completely UNMO report,
21 only this SHOOTREP.
22 Q. Thank you. I would now like to concentrate on the level of
23 SHOOTREP reports. In the chain of information, were these SHOOTREPs some
24 of the first informative documents or perhaps the first such documents
25 that were used to determine the problem of shots, the extent of the
1 shooting, et cetera?
2 A. Well, military observers, they had more freedom of movement than
3 we had because they had a special status. They were unarmed, and they
4 dealt more with local people and so on. At the same time, UNPROFOR, we
5 were armed units, and for example, there was a different attitude of local
6 people to our units. That's why most of times, as far as I remember, they
7 had information which you couldn't get, for example, to send in our
8 patrols and so. That's why we actually relied on this information.
9 Q. Very well. But my question hasn't perhaps been fully answered in
10 that. What I would like to know is whether the documents prepared by the
11 UNMOs, what we call the UNMOs, the UN military observers, did these
12 documents -- were these documents the first documents within the chain of
13 information? Is that the case or not? And when I say "the first
14 documents," I'm referring to a chronological chain, of course.
15 A. Well, I didn't quite understand the question because the first
16 document, does it mean it was primary document or more reliable document
17 or ...?
18 Q. No.
19 A. What do you mean "the chronological chain"?
20 Q. Yes. Naturally. I agree with you. It's a bit complicated. The
21 notion of primary document that you mentioned is the notion I was
22 referring to. That's what I had in mind. Is that the case?
23 A. I cannot say that it was a primary document or, as you mentioned,
24 first document. Of course, first of all, we -- our ops seniors, they had
25 more information from our unit, and that's why there is a difference
1 between UNMOs and UNPROFOR units, because UNMOs, they were not under
2 controlling command of Sector Sarajevo. They only coordinated their
3 activity. But on some operational matters, UNMOs were supposed to perform
4 tasks which helped headquarter Sarajevo to perform its mission.
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. I have the following question that I would
6 like to put to you now: At the level of UNMOs and at the level of
7 SHOOTREPs, did the military observers have other documents - and I am
8 referring to documents - on the basis of which they could prepare their
9 own reports? Where was this and on the basis of what could they hear about
10 this? On the basis of what they saw? On the basis of what they heard on
12 A. Well, it's very easy for me to say, because as I mentioned before,
13 later I was a military observer and I know very well that these UNMOs had
14 their own report where they described what was done, the logistic
15 situation and so on, and of course cease-fire regulations. And how they
16 registered all this cease-fire regulation: There was a special list for
17 INCREP which is incoming report, and SHOOTREP, which is outgoing firing
18 report. This is two forms. And when UNMO heard or saw any cease-fire
19 violation, he was supposed to record it in this -- on this piece of paper
20 with -- with pointing out the exact time and how did he get the
21 information. For example, UNMO heard or UNMO seen. But all these
22 documents, they were only on UNMO chain of command. It means all these
23 reports by the end of day were sent to duty officer of UNMOs in
24 headquarter Sarajevo and then reported to deputy senior -- deputy senor
25 military observer or his operations staff.
1 Q. Very well. With regard to what you have described, your
2 expression "UNMO heard or UNMO seen," I have another question that has to
3 do with UNMO do; that is to say, once something has been heard or seen, it
4 is reported. Very well. But is there a manner of joining information?
5 And I have to provide you with an example now: Let's imagine that a shot
6 falls between two military observation posts. This shot is heard by both
7 posts. Each post will mention this shot and at the end of the day will
8 have two shots reported by both posts, whereas there was only one shot.
9 As a result, was there a system of verification, was this possible in
10 order to avoid any confusion in the reports -- in the reports?
11 A. Well, I even can add: If there is some -- our mission going on, I
12 mean UNPROFOR mission, and if there is some post from our UNPROFOR unit,
13 and even these people, they have to add these events like shelling or
14 incoming or outgoing. Of course there were confusion. But if you mean
15 that did we check, for example, UNMO's information, how many explosions
16 they heard or seen, we didn't do it because -- because it was not
17 necessary and UNMOs believed to be the most reliable source of information
18 for UN.
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I -- may I just ask you --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I will stop you there.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You added something to the question, but you did not
23 respond to the question.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether it was verified that one
1 event observed by two different UNMO posts would appear not as two events,
2 that is, observed by two posts, but whether you verified whether this
3 actually had been one event, whether there was a system active avoiding
4 such confusion.
5 THE WITNESS: What is concerning our tasks, I mean operation
6 officer and duty officer, we didn't verify it.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, as a result --
9 JUDGE ORIE: One moment. You said you didn't do it. Are you
10 aware of whether it was done by anyone else or ...?
11 THE WITNESS: Well, we had such practice for our units but not
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do you know whether the UNMOs did it?
14 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have such information.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have that information.
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Witness, as a result, was it technically possible if many shots
20 fall simultaneously in places where they could be heard at the same time
21 by several posts, would it be possible for these shots to be reported by
22 more than one or two posts?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do you want the witness to answer
24 the question or will I answer the question? Is it possible that it will
25 rain next week, Mr. Piletta-Zanin? I could answer that question.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. If you
2 allow me to intervene, what I would like to know - because I don't know; I
3 was never there - I want to know whether in reality it's possible for
4 three posts to hear for topographical reasons and because of the sound
5 that is made, whether they can hear something because the sound is heard
6 in this place. If the witness says, "No, because the posts are so distant
7 from each other and it's impossible to hear it," then we will have
8 clarified the problem. If the witness says, "No, because these places are
9 so near to each other," I think this will be useful. If not, I'll move on
10 to another subject.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 THE WITNESS: Well, I can say only one thing.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Wait a moment, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, I can say only one thing: According to our
16 SUP, all units were obliged to report about any outgoing and incoming
17 fire. And what I can say, that of course if there is a post in one unit,
18 for example, Ukrainian Battalion who is stationed in Tito barracks, both
19 posts can report the same outgoing and incoming fire because they are
20 close, but it's just common logic and common sense.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we -- of course the witness has
22 now answered the question. Your explanation as to the relevance of this
23 question ignored that the fact that incoming -- that many shots fall
24 simultaneously in places where they could be heard already says that they
25 could be heard in different places, and your question was just about
1 reporting, not on whether they could be heard in different places, because
2 that was already included as a suggestion in your answer and was not what
3 you asked the witness about. So you had just asked whether they could be
4 heard at different places, whether they could be reported as more
5 incidents. And I would say that we asked the witness to answer that
6 question but it's a question that everyone could answer.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll move on to a question
10 that can't be answered by everyone --
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Who has heard
12 the testimony of the earlier witness and who has some sense of logic.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Witness, in purely logical terms and given the layout of the
16 ground and the structure of Sarajevo which we do not know as well as you
17 do, the phenomenon of an echo, is this a phenomenon which would occur in
18 reality? And I am referring to areas where there are high-rise buildings
19 in particular. Yes or no?
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object. It's a hypothetical question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It has nothing hypothetical
23 about it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked the witness is whether in the circumstances as you
1 find them in Sarajevo, whether the witness has the experience that echoes
2 would be heard, and I take it that you are asking about echoes of the
3 sound of firing, or are you interested to know about anything else?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I've heard what you said,
5 Mr. President. I've understood you. My question has to do with the
6 reality of the phenomenon in Sarajevo and the possible consequences that
7 it could have. That's the second part with regard to calculations.
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Question,
9 because I -- the question was whether the phenomenon of an echo would
10 occur in reality.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In Sarajevo.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
13 May I just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are interested to know
14 about the echoes of the -- of what? Of people singing? I take it that --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. The echo of my voice is
16 not very interesting. What I'm interested in is the echo of -- of a shot,
17 as it is landing.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin has asked whether you experienced
19 the phenomenon of an echo to occur when a shell was falling.
20 THE WITNESS: Shall I answer?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, of course, there was phenomenon of echo, and I
23 can say yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Witness, the next question, which logically comes out of that, is
2 whether this phenomenon of echo -- firstly, was it frequent? And
3 secondly, was it something that may have caused errors in the reports
4 compiled, made by the observers?
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Inviting the witness to speculate.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Very well, may I respond?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to get an answer on the first
10 question that --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is it frequent?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
14 Q. The echo.
15 A. Well, of course it was better to ask people who were outside on
16 the missions, because most of time I spent in PTT. Only maybe four or
17 five times I visited battalion, and I heard by myself this echo for
18 incoming shots and so. But of course it depends on the area where it
19 happened, if there is a high-rise buildings or it's a summer house. Is
20 it -- it depends on the area, the kind of structures and so just there.
21 Q. Well, you cannot say about the frequency because you were not in
22 the field, you were not on the ground. But on the principle of the
23 existence of the echo, did you ever hear it?
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. I think the witness
25 has already answered the question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has answered that question that he
2 experienced the phenomenon of echo but that he could not tell much about
3 the frequency because he was usually indoors.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Indeed.
5 Q. But this kind -- in a sense that you've had this experience, this
6 kind of echo, was this likely to cause errors in the reports?
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me ask you, Mr. Kruk, do you have any
9 experience or any knowledge of such echoes causing errors in reporting
10 either incoming or outgoing fire?
11 THE WITNESS: I don't have such experience, but there was
12 some -- some mistakes in the reporting from battalions, but I think
13 that --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Was that caused --
15 THE WITNESS: This position doesn't relate to this, to echo.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Not to echo.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 THE WITNESS: Not to echo.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, considering
20 that the witness told us there were errors, could we please have the
21 exhibit. I gave the list to Madam Registrar the other day, and this is
22 exhibits that were under seal, I believe. So it would be good if they
23 were not placed on the ELMO. And this is 918, 925, and 932.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
1 Q. First of all, witness, could you please look at these documents
2 once they are in front of you --
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 [In English] Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber might have some
5 difficulties in following the testimony if the document is not on the ELMO
6 because I noticed that there was a long -- a very long list with ERN
7 numbers, and am I right that it is -- do I find the P numbers somewhere?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: P number?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Is that at the top of the document, I think?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, but on the list.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: On the list? I don't have the list on me.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, the Chamber, of course, tries to prepare
14 itself on the -- what it can expect. And if I would know that there were
15 some admitted pieces in evidence, then we could prepare ourselves on it.
16 And for example, I take it now -- we cannot follow the testimony of the
17 witness if it's not on the ELMO and if we have no copies.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I would agree with you. But --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I don't expect you to --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Closed session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Closed session. Yes, of course, but we should not
22 turn into closed session unless it is necessary.
23 But let's now turn into closed session so that the documents can
24 be put on the ELMO.
25 [Closed session]
12 Page 18237 – redacted – closed session
12 Page 18238 – redacted – closed session
22 [Open session]
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
24 Q. Witness, you spoke of battalions earlier. Could you please tell
25 us precisely to which battalion were you referring. Thank you.
1 A. At my time there were three battalions: French Battalion stationed
2 in airport; Ukrainian Battalion was stationed in Tito barracks; and
3 Egyptian Battalion was stationed in Bistrik barracks.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you have close contact with these battalions, and
5 more specifically with the Ukrainian Battalion?
6 A. Well, of course, because I was Ukrainian officer I had more close
7 contacts with Ukrainian Battalion, and I had good contacts with other
8 battalions as well, because in our ops room, as I mentioned before, there
9 were present all liaison officers from all battalions just to be in touch
10 with battalions at any time.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you remind us, where was the battalion in
12 question? Where was it located?
13 A. What battalion do you mean?
14 Q. I'm talking about the Ukrainian Battalion.
15 A. The Ukrainian Battalion was stationed in so-called Tito barracks.
16 Q. Thank you. Since you are speaking about the Tito barracks, can
17 you tell us something about the presence of armed elements, I mean in the
18 most general sense, in the Tito barracks.
19 A. In Tito barracks, there was UN camp where was stationed Ukrainian
20 Battalion and Dutch communications centre.
21 Q. Thank you. I was not speaking about the presence of UN elements,
22 parts of the UN structure in my question, but I was speaking in general.
23 Were there any other, apart from the personnel, armed or not, of the UN,
24 was there any other armed elements of other parties inside within the
25 compound of the barracks?
1 A. As far as I was told by Ukrainian officers from the Ukrainian
2 Battalion, part of Tito barracks were not engaged -- were occupied by some
3 logistic branch of BH army.
4 Q. Very well. Can you inform us in which part of the barracks was
5 your answer referring to.
6 A. Well, our UN camp was separated from that part of Tito barracks.
7 We occupied two buildings in this barracks, and there was a fence and
8 there was another territory which didn't belong to UN camp.
9 Q. Very well. This situation, did it last throughout your stay?
10 A. As far as I remember, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Witness, could we now go on to another subject, and
12 we'll now talk about life in that part of Sarajevo that remained under the
13 control of the BH forces. And the first question that I have in mind in
14 relation to that is that: Did you have any free time? And if so, what
15 did you do during your free time, that is, when you were not inside the
16 compound of the PTT building?
17 A. Because we had only three officers in our duty shift, that's why I
18 almost didn't have free time. And if I had, I used it for -- for
19 recreation, because it was very tense work with a big operation and so on.
20 That's why I didn't go very often to Ukrainian Battalion. But I did
21 remember I went there four -- four or five times.
22 Q. Thank you. But did it ever happen to you that you went to other
23 sectors of the city, apart from the one where the Tito barracks were?
24 A. I went two times to airport -- correction, three times, three
25 times to airport. And once I went to engineer mission.
1 Q. That is not during your free time. But can you tell us, from
2 where -- no, I'm sorry, where?
3 A. Where did I go?
4 Q. Where did you go for that technical mission?
5 A. I don't remember the area of Sarajevo. It was only once or maybe
6 two times. But if I see my reports after this engineer mission, which I
7 believe were included in daily situation report, I would say it exactly.
8 Q. Thank you. Let us stop here about that mission. In relation to
9 this mission, did anything specific occur during this technical mission?
10 A. As far as I remember, I was mission commander and I had escort
11 commander. He was a Canadian lieutenant. Unfortunately I didn't remember
12 his name. And once we came under fire on the way to this mission, and
13 then there was exchange of fire on the place of mission and the mission
14 was cancelled due to security reasons.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if I would put the following
17 question to the witness, could you please tell me whether that would
18 assist you.
19 The question would be: Did you ever spend any time when you were
20 not on duty in the city, and would you have an opportunity to observe the
21 daily life of the citizens?
22 Is that --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
24 Absolutely. But you have estimated the situation perfectly well, but you
25 have also seen that for the moment I decided to see what happened at this
1 technical mission and then later on I would gladly go on to that question
2 after I found out what happened to the mission.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Now, witness --
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you would put that question later on in this way,
7 then you might get the answer you would like to have. And I'm just
8 suggesting how to get the answers I take it you would like to --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, please bear in mind the perfectly phrased question that
11 the President asked. We will come back to it. But now logically, I will
12 have to proceed in this way: What happened during this mission you were
13 fired at? And my question is the following: Were you able to establish
14 where the shots came from?
15 A. Well, we were very close to confrontation line, and what side
16 fired on us, I cannot say for sure. First of all, we were moving in
17 Canadian APC inside, and well, we only heard the ricochet from our APC.
18 So I cannot say exactly.
19 Q. Without projecting anything whatsoever, do you know why would
20 anybody fire at you?
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. Inviting the witness
22 to speculate.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I respond, Mr. President?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think so. I -- I just
1 asked the witness whether he knew if there was an investigation into the
2 causes, then yes. If he doesn't know, he doesn't know. He can say he
3 doesn't know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then ask whether it was investigated, what were the
5 results of the investigations rather than ask it in this way: Ask,
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for facts, rather than asking for --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm trying to save time,
8 Mr. President. But very well. I will do this.
9 Q. Has there been an investigation following this event?
10 A. As far as I know, there was no investigation. It was the usual
11 case for Sarajevo at that time.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. I am going on to another subject now. I
13 asked you to remember the question that the President asked earlier, and I
14 would even add something to it, that is, did you go into the old town?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question is whether when you were not on
16 duty whether you would spend any time in the old town and whether you were
17 able to observe the daily life of citizens.
18 THE WITNESS: I didn't have any chance to go for -- for a walk or
19 just for -- for travelling or for seeing sights. Just only for, if it's
20 needed, I went to battalion, as I said before, four or five times, and
21 that's all. First of all, it was not allowed for us to leave PTT, even
22 just not to go outside -- outside the --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, I will stop you here for -- in order not to waste time.
25 Thank you. When you moved inside the town, when you -- during your
1 movements inside the town, did you have an opportunity to see in the city
2 or elsewhere soldiers belonging to the BH army?
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. The witness has
4 already answered that he did not go out.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is not so. He said that
6 he did not have time to go outside during his free time and that it was
7 forbidden, but he did say that he moved twice or -- well, if I cannot be
8 heard, then very well. I will take note.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, I can answer this --
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask you: Did you ever move into the town
11 when you were on duty, apart from what you just told us, going to the
13 THE WITNESS: Okay. As I said before, I went to engineer mission
14 I can believe it was in town. And of course going to battalion as well
15 could be included. And if the point of question, did I see people in
16 military uniform, yes, I did.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what I -- why I intervened
18 is that it becomes confusing if we do not know exactly what facts the
19 witness is testifying about. I'm not excluding that he went to town when
20 he was not on duty, but you suggested it, where we do not know it yet. So
21 if you systematically put your questions to the witness, we'll get as many
22 answers as possible, and that's what the Chamber really would like, to
23 hear the answers rather than to hear about confusion in questioning.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. To be
1 precise in the interest of the matter, the witness said what I wanted to
2 say equally was that he went three times also to the airport and that,,
3 not to one battalion but battalions.
4 Q. When you moved about inside the city, you told us that you saw
5 soldiers in uniform. What can you tell us about that?
6 A. Well, first of all, I saw once three men leaving a civilian car.
7 They were in camouflage. It was next to Ukrainian Battalion. And as
8 well, when I was on engineer mission, there was maybe six or eight people.
9 Some of them were half in camouflage, half in civilian clothes, but they
10 had weapon, and it was just next to confrontation line.
11 Q. Thank you. Just a few clarifications in relation to facts. You
12 spoke of a civilian car. Can you tell us what type of vehicle was that?
13 A. Well, it was usual civilian vehicle, like for usual driving. We
14 call it soft skin vehicle.
15 Q. Thank you. And so if that car was a civilian vehicle, was there
16 any -- did it have any other distinguishing features that another car that
17 was not used by the army would not have?
18 A. No. The only passengers were in camouflage uniform and armed with
19 small arms and that's all. No special about this vehicle.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think it's time for a break,
21 Mr. President.
22 THE WITNESS: [Previous interpretation continues] ...
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I did not hear the last words of the witness, as a
25 matter of fact.
1 What was the last words you spoke, Mr. Kruk?
2 THE WITNESS: I added that maybe it was a little bit rusted.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Rusted, yes. I don't know whether this is a military
4 feature or not or a civilian feature.
5 We'll adjourn until 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to continue the examination of
9 the witness?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would
11 like to thank the registrar. It has been copied, I think. And I spent a
12 significant part of the break to photocopy a document with a machine that
13 wasn't functioning quite properly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into
15 the courtroom.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. President,
18 whether your Chamber already has the three documents that I mentioned
19 earlier on just a minute ago.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have not received them yet. We now do receive
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We do have many copies. We
23 have additional copies.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Did you provide the additional copies to the booth,
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. But I will do so gladly.
2 I'll do that immediately.
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Ms. Mahindaratne, to keep a close eye
4 on what exactly the protected information would be in the document. It
5 will not be put on the ELMO. And if it's just about the structure of this
6 kind of documents, we've seen such documents before. I don't think there
7 is any need to specifically protect the structure of the document.
8 And would you also keep in mind, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that whenever
9 we touch upon a point which might be sensitive that we turn into closed
11 Then please proceed. The document is not to be put on the ELMO.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to use
13 the time as best as possible, while this document is being provided to the
14 booths, I'll ask the witness some other questions.
15 Q. Witness, with regard to the PTT building in Sarajevo and the
16 surrounding area - and I'm referring to the parameter of the building, the
17 surroundings of the building - what can you tell us about this, please?
18 A. The PTT building, it was a highscraper where four stages were
19 occupied by UN personnel, and it had two stages down, and a basement and
20 so. Our living room was facing two blocks of flats, and in front of our
21 room was a road, and nearby was a small river, and this is geographic --
22 Q. Thank you. But my question did not really have to do with the
23 geography, but I will be more precise. What can you tell us about the
24 building's parameter, the PTT building's parameter? And I mean, it's
25 possible -- the legal character, was there a certain zone which made it
1 possible to distinguish it from other zones around the PTT building? Was
2 there a certain legal zone?
3 A. The PTT had walls made from sandbags. That's why if you see it,
4 it had a -- like a white band. It was distinguishable from --
5 Q. In the orders that you received or in the administrative
6 instructions that you had, was there anything that said that something
7 could or could not be done within a certain parameter surrounding the
8 so-called PTT building? Did it define in this sense a zone surrounding
9 it? Have you understood the question?
10 A. Yes, I think so. First of all, according to standard procedures,
11 any of UN personnel couldn't leave PTT without flak jacket and helmet,
12 what is concern UN personnel. And according to UN rules and there was a
13 zone of 500 metres which were not permitted for any warring parties to be
15 Q. Thank you. Witness, since you mentioned this zone of 500 metres,
16 I have two questions: Was a diameter or a sort of area -- no, a diameter
17 or a range. For the English translation, not range. It would sooner be
18 radius, I think. Thank you. How were these 500 metres calculated?
19 A. Well, easily to explain, it was 500 metres from sandbags or from
20 fence which was around PTT, and it was -- it could be designed visually.
21 There was no special measuring, I think.
22 Q. Thank you. But would you agree with me in considering this as a
23 global zone of 1.000 metres on both sides of the building, 500 metres to
24 the east and 500 metres to the west? Is that your testimony?
25 A. Yes, this is 500 metres from the wall to west, east, north,
1 and ...
2 Q. Thank you. So we're speaking about a radius of 500 metres. Why
3 was this zone there, and what was it called?
4 A. Well, it was a safe zone for UN, just to protect UN personnel from
5 shelling, from firing and soldiers.
6 Q. Very well. Nevertheless, did you ever personally hear shots that
7 had been fired from this area? Did you hear these shots?
8 A. Two times I do remember that when there was a severe violation
9 from Bosnia side, when they penetrated to this zone and made a couple of
10 shots. The first time, I remember it very well because there was a small
11 table tennis championship. And when we started to play - I don't remember
12 for what place and -- in coffee room - and there was two outgoing shots.
13 And in -- very soon there was retaliation, and even a couple of sandbags
14 just fell down this coffee room.
15 Q. Thank you. Witness, why did these shots -- why did these outgoing
16 shots occur? Or as you said, there was a security zone -- around the
17 building? Do you know anything about that?
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. Inviting the witness
19 to speculate.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I wanted to know whether the
22 witness knew or did not know, not whether he was imagining something.
23 It's nothing that he has to speculate about.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, you may answer that question. And
25 please do it in such a way that the Chamber will know what's the basis of
1 your knowledge.
2 THE WITNESS: As I mentioned before, at that time not only
3 me - there was maybe tens of people in coffee room - and we heard -- I
4 personally heard outgoing shots from mortar, and I can say it was mortar
5 82 millimetres approximately, according to the sound. And everybody was
6 very angry about this because it was strictly prohibited to provocate near
7 UN camp because it can endanger UN personnel. It always was very strong
8 protest from headquarter Sarajevo. And I do remember two times in the
9 headquarter it happened and once it was during my engineer mission.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Yes. But the question was whether you knew the reasons for which
12 these shots had been provoked. If you don't, you can just say that you
14 A. I can say that -- and I will tell common opinion of the people who
15 were present there. It was pure provocation.
16 Q. For what purpose?
17 A. Maybe to -- to receive backfire, and in this case to make opposing
18 side to be guilty for these might-be casualties or destruction for UN.
19 Q. Thank you. Witness, this security zone that you have spoken
20 about, the radius of which was 500 metres, was it also used for other
21 military buildings used by the UN forces, such as, for example,
22 observation posts?
23 A. It was a general rule for all UN positions, for all UN camps and
24 so where UN personnel present permanently there was this security zone,
25 500 metres.
1 Q. Thank you. I would like to be as precise as possible. Does your
2 answer as a result include the observation posts that we know are
3 sometimes located in normal houses? Did your answer also refer to these
5 A. I cannot say exactly what was concerning UNMO's observation post
6 because sometimes they moved from one post to another, but I think this
7 rule was -- was used for any UN position.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you personally know about other provocative
9 situations that might have occurred at sites other than that of the PTT
11 A. Well, as I mentioned before, during engineering mission when we
12 came at the place where repair workers were supposed to be started, there
13 came five or six people armed and there was a -- some exchange of words
14 between local workers, and this is so-called words, and then there was
15 outgoing firing from small arm fire.
16 Q. Thank you. Witness, we are now going to be examining some
17 documents. First of all, I would like to ask you whether you recognise
18 each of the three documents, and then I will move on to more specific
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With your permission,
21 Mr. President.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. Witness, first of all, could you have a look at the first
24 document, bearing the number 925. Do you have it in front of you?
25 A. 925? No.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: It's P925 at the very top.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may just point out, this is
3 a Rule 70 document and it has not been cleared, as well as Witness Y, who
4 is a protected witness, his name is on this document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's first of all the reason why I said that
6 it could not be put on the ELMO.
7 If, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I won't have any questions,
9 Mr. President, including those -- including names.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You're not --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Including names.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No. But I would say the information in the document
13 as such is protected. So therefore, we should then deal with it in closed
14 session, unless the questions are of such a general nature that they would
15 not jeopardise in whatever way -- if, for example -- let me just assume,
16 say, well, we read the word "Howitzer." In the document. Could you tell
17 us what a Howitzer is. That would not reveal anything, I would say, would
18 be protected. But as soon as it comes to the content -- or if, for
19 example, you would ask about the system of reporting, that's fine. But as
20 soon as we come to the content of the document itself, whether names or
21 other events, we should respect the -- we should respect the --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order not to
23 waste time, will the Prosecution tell me what its position is in relation
24 to the two other documents with regard to this question concerning
25 confidential information.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: With regard to those two documents,
2 Mr. President, the Rule 70 has been cleared.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's only 925 that is --
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And 925, in order to avoid whatever problem,
6 while copying -- specifically the number, what I take to be 925 at the
7 top, is only half copied. But let's talk about 918, 932, and then the
8 third one we all consider that to be 925.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, in an abundance of caution,
10 since all three documents have been tendered under seal, perhaps if
11 evidence is dealt with with regard that these three document, we could go
12 into private session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we don't put it on the ELMO and go into
14 private session, that would perhaps be the best solution.
15 Let's in order to work as efficiently as possible go into private
16 session and let's keep in mind that as soon as it's not necessary anymore,
17 to go into open session again.
18 [Private session]
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
12 Pages 18256 to 18270 – redacted – private session
3 [Open session]
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
5 Q. Let me put it to you in a different way: In the case of incoming
6 rounds, there are factors such as sound, smoke, and perhaps the field of
7 vibration which are factors which would assist UNMO to observe the
8 incoming round. Isn't that the case?
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 Q. In the case of outgoing rounds, there is no smoke.
11 A. Obviously.
12 Q. And perhaps the field of vibration is not as much as in the case
13 of an incoming round?
14 A. Well, it's not as in -- even former military, just -- I only can
15 repeat it. It depends on the distance. For example, if you even heard
16 what a tank fires and what is an explosion, for example, anti-aircraft
17 calibre shots, it's a big difference. Well, it's -- if we say of specific
18 case with distances. But generally it's -- we have to follow the
20 Q. If you consider that all these elements the distances were the
21 same with regard to an incoming round as well as an outgoing round, would
22 you not agree with me that factors such as sound, smoke, and the feel of
23 the vibration assists one in monitoring or observing an incoming round
24 much better than an outgoing round?
25 A. Okay. Finally I understood what you're asking me. Well, of
1 course. For all this is three parameters, like smoke, like just light,
2 when it's explosion, and vibration. Of course, it's more easily could be
3 observed by anybody.
4 Q. Additionally wasn't it the case - of course, the documents have
5 now been removed from your table - but wasn't it the case that the
6 documents itself in the first paragraph explained the reasons for
7 the -- the fact that -- as to why the incoming rounds and the outgoing
8 rounds did not correspond to each other? Did you read the first
9 paragraph, sir?
10 A. Yes. And I read the first paragraph and the last paragraph, and
11 there is excuse that that's why these figures don't maybe correspond the
12 figure of outgoing and incoming. And at the end of this SHOOTREP, there's
13 an excuse for maybe not a high accuracy of all the numbers.
14 Q. You spoke of an incident when you went on an engineering mission
15 where some people had -- got involved in a shooting incident after an
17 A. There was no argument. Well, if I described maybe in some
18 details. When we came on the place, where five or six people came with
19 arms, they greeted workers -- local workers who came with me, and Canadian
20 escort officer and soldiers, me as well, and then we were about to start
21 our mission. Very close, maybe 50 metres from us, there was small arms
22 fire, outgoing fire. I can say it was automatic rifle exactly. And then
23 in -- very soon we had back -- how can I say -- retaliation from opposite
24 side. It was a mortar.
25 Q. Do you remember the location?
1 A. No, I don't remember exactly the location. But if I see the
2 situation report and my report when I drew after I came from this mission
3 and -- well, I would tell exactly what was the location.
4 Q. Was it at the confrontation line?
5 A. Yes, it was very close to confrontation line.
6 Q. On which territory? On territory held by the Bosnian army or
7 the --
8 A. The Bosnian army. Of course.
9 Q. You spoke of a Ukrainian officer informing you that part of the
10 Tito barracks was occupied by the logistic branch of the BH army. Can you
11 identify that person who told you this. Do you remember the name of that
13 A. It was not only one but many Ukrainian officers, because they
14 lived there every day. They communicated with local people. And that's
15 why they were there for me a source of information. And I can just name
16 any company commander or platoon commander and so on. If you need --
17 Albert Bondarchuk. Who else? Vorchak, Vladimir.
18 Q. If I may interrupt you.
19 A. I can name you maybe all officers if I had a list and -- everybody
20 knew it.
21 Q. Which part of the building was this? Was it on the -- the north,
22 the east, the west, or the south?
23 A. If I see the sketch of this place -- but as I mentioned before,
24 there was two -- two buildings occupied by Dutch concern and our
25 battalion. And then there was a fence and there was another territory,
1 and I was told there was some logistical element.
2 Q. If I may assist you in trying to ascertain the direction. You
3 know the -- the road referred to as the sniper alley, which goes from east
4 to west or west to east through the city?
5 A. Yes. This is the main street which we used to go from Ukrainian
6 Battalion to PTT.
7 Q. Now, if you take the side of the Tito barracks which faces sniper
8 alley as south, now would you be able to tell me on which side this
9 logistic branch was, whether it was the north, the south, the east, or the
11 A. Well, I still be more sure if I had a sketch of this territory and
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, with your permission, just to
14 assist the witness to get the direction, if I may just show a map which
15 has been used right through.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may. And would you use as neutral names as
17 possible for streets you want to describe.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
19 May I have that back. I don't think that is an appropriate map to
20 show, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could you perhaps -- it's a very
22 small area, I would say. Could you make sure that you have a suitable map
23 after the break and then put that question to the witness and now proceed
24 with other matters --
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So that you have 20 minutes to make the right cut of
2 the map you would need.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then proceed.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, that would be my last question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it would be your last question. Well, we could
7 really do two things right now. But if you have a good map that really
8 suits your purpose, then you could do it now. Otherwise -- we have a --
9 we very often use a coloured map which covers the whole city and -- I
10 don't think that's the one you have in your hands by now.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Microphone not activated] I have the coloured
12 map, Mr. President. It's just that I've made some markings and it would
13 the --
14 JUDGE ORIE: No. You should use a clean one.
15 Perhaps we could -- even if it would be the last question, perhaps
16 better have the break now and you take a good map, perhaps enlarge the
17 part you need during the break, and we'll then resume at --
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would be -- Mr. Kruk, we expect that you'd
20 be here only briefly after that. It depends on whether there are any
21 additional questions to be put to you. But we'll first adjourn so that
22 the Prosecution is able to prepare a proper map that you could use, and
23 we'll then resume at twenty-five minutes to 1.00 and then have no further
24 break any more and continue until 1.45.
25 Yes. We'll adjourn until then.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, did you manage to get the map?
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. But of course it's
5 not -- it does not show the Tito barracks in a larger scale. I just
6 merely --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's see how far we come with this map, and
8 perhaps that could then be put on the ELMO --
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- When you ask the witness questions about it.
11 Could then the witness be brought into the courtroom.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Usher.
14 Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If I may have the assistance of the usher just
16 to place the map, this area, on the ELMO.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you could zoom in on the ...
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
19 Q. Sir, can you identify the Tito barracks on this map?
20 A. There is not good light.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The map may be moved to the right a little
22 perhaps. The map can be moved to the right and the camera zoom in on the
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I take it that you don't have copies -- copies
25 for us.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Your Honour. Within the time period I had,
2 I couldn't --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry to
4 interrupt, but we have a number of copies here that we will gladly give
5 for the disposal of everyone. And on this map you can also see the
6 barracks. With great pleasure, the Defence will offer copies to everyone.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm thankful to my learned friend.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that's a copy of the same map.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's a tourist plan of
13 JUDGE ORIE: It will certainly assist us to have the map. If it's
14 be enlarged, it might even be given to the witness if this is an enlarged
15 part. If not, then ...
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but Your Honour, I was
17 planning to use this map for the examination of the next witness. I can
18 provide it to be used now.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: There will not be markings on this map, just
20 to --
21 JUDGE ORIE: There will be no markings. So we'll return it to
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If the cameras could zoom in on the map.
24 THE WITNESS: I think this is --
25 Q. Can you identify Tito barracks on the map, sir?
1 A. Well, if -- if I am not mistaken, I think this is Tito barracks on
2 the left side of the --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could perhaps that part of the map that the
4 witness just pointed at be put in the centre of the map and that the
5 witness again indicates.
6 Yes. Could you -- could you again point at it, Mr. Kruk.
7 THE WITNESS: I think this is the Tito barracks.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
9 Q. Now, sir, can you examine that area and indicate as to on which
10 side or which part of the barracks was the logistic branch of the BH.
11 A. Well, I can say that -- that the entry of our -- just not
12 our -- Ukrainian Battalion was stationed at Tito barracks. There was one
13 building here there was three companies, and Dutch com centre. And here
14 was headquarter. And there was after fence as -- well, actually, I was
15 told that after -- after -- next to barracks there is another barracks
16 which were occupied. But you have to understand, I was only four times
17 driving by APC, and what I was interested just to visit some of people and
18 our officer mess and that's all, and all I can describe, the UN camp.
19 Q. Sir, I take it then that you yourself personally did not see or do
20 not know --
21 A. Yes, I --
22 Q. -- As to whether there was in fact the logistic branch of the BH
23 army located at this premises. You can only speak of what has been told
24 to you.
25 A. Yes, of course. As I mentioned before, I was told by a local
1 officer -- I mean Ukrainian officers, because they lived there. They knew
2 the area much better.
3 Q. You cannot say even on which side of this complex the --
4 A. I --
5 Q. If I may finish my question.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Of this complex the logistic branch was located at.
8 A. I know that it was next to the UN camp where Ukrainian Battalion
9 was stationed. And I only remember how building where our units were were
10 situated on this territory. And -- and what was going on behind the fence
11 which were surrounded Ukrainian Battalion, well, I cannot say exactly.
12 Only from words which I heard from our officers.
13 Q. When you use the word "behind," are you referring to the northern
14 side of the complex? When you say "behind," it's behind from the
15 direction you're looking at, this map, would you say the side on the
17 A. I think where was end of building where was headquarter of our
18 company. There was continuation of building. Maybe there was the element
19 of -- of BH army. But I am not sure. First of all, it's ten years past,
20 and I was driving there only four or five times. And I was not interested
21 in this information, actually.
22 Q. Just one last question.
23 A. It only -- for me it was general information.
24 Q. Just one last question on this: On which side was the Ukrainian
25 Battalion located? On the northern side?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the sake of the
4 transcript, perhaps before the witness answers this question, it would be
5 very useful to indicate that just a minute again the witness encircled
6 certain parts of the --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree. The question is what he pointed at
8 exactly. But perhaps he could combine these two questions, since the
9 cooperation between the parties is --
10 You have -- you have been asked now by Ms. Mahindaratne where the
11 Ukrainian Battalion was, and you -- one minute ago approximately you
12 pointed at a certain part of what you indicated to be the Tito barracks,
13 and that was, I would say, the wing that goes east-west on the northern
14 side of the complex, just below where it reads "Put Zivota." Did you
15 intend to indicate that the Ukrainian Battalion was stationed there had in
16 that part of the complex?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think it was stationed here.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is now pointing at the western wing
19 and the northern wing but only the western half of it. Do you have
20 further questions, Ms. Mahindaratne?
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The map may be returned.
22 I have only a couple of questions, Mr. President, to conclude
23 cross-examination, contrary to what I indicated --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're also distinguishing between your last
25 and your very last question.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In order to avoid too much
4 work for the you should and Madam Registrar, but I can see it's already
5 too late, I would suggest that you retain possession of the maps.
6 Could the usher please return. Could he approach us.
7 [In English] Could you return the maps, please. And with your
8 leave, of course, Mr. President, could you redistribute them to --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have additional questions to that.
10 Okay. You put your next questions, and meanwhile the maps can be
11 redistributed again.
12 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Witness, you testified that there was a 500-metres radius around
15 the PTT building, on all four sides of the PTT building which was
16 considered to be -- if I may use the word, safe zone?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Was there a fence which demarcated that boundary line?
19 A. No. There was no boundaries for the very 500 metres.
20 Q. Were there sandbags or some type of -- of something that
21 demarcated that line, the 500-metre radius, from the outside area?
22 A. In front of PTT direction to the road, there was a sandbag fence,
23 where as far as I remember, there was a French checkpoint for incoming
24 vehicle, just to -- to protect the area where passengers left cars, APCs,
25 and so. But if I was looking from our window where we lived, and there
1 was no fence -- I mean, this is 500 metres.
2 Q. Is it your position, then, that there were guards -- you referred
3 to the term "French officers," or -- "French checkpoint." You used the
4 word "French checkpoint." Was there --
5 A. Yes, it was a French checkpoint. There was just a corps company,
6 a headquarter company who was responsible for guarding for everything
7 concerning security of headquarter Sarajevo and PTT building itself.
8 Q. So the French checkpoint guarded the 500-metre radius around the
9 PTT building.
10 A. Well, actually, they guarded all the area which could be seen from
11 their checkpoints.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that there might be some confusion. When
13 you're talking about the French officers guarding, did you mean to say
14 that they were guarding the 500-metre line, or were they guarding close to
15 the building where approximately it goes to the road?
16 THE WITNESS: Actually, they guarded all the area which they could
17 observe, not only this 500 metres. 500 metres it was a special distance
18 where warring parties couldn't be. But from the point of view of
19 security, French guards, they guarded all situation around. And by the
20 way, they had the one observation post on the roof.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But how close were they to the building where
22 they --
23 THE WITNESS: Oh, the PTT building.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, there was some curve, approximately
1 maybe -- maybe 100 metres.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
5 Q. Was the French checkpoint positioned in such a way to observe the
6 500-metre radius around the PTT building?
7 A. Yes, in places where it was possible, they observed.
8 Q. If a mortar or an artillery round was fired from outside this
9 500-metre radius, you would still hear the sound from the building; isn't
10 that the case?
11 A. Yes, of course.
12 Q. So if --
13 A. I --
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Well, if I had that -- it depends where one was present at that
16 time, was the window opened and many things which could affect and just
17 to -- to define exactly the distance. But if there was a close outgoing
18 fire, it was heard.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No more questions, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I have a
23 certain number of questions.
24 But first of all, could the witness be taken out of the courtroom.
25 There is something I would like to say, with your permission.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, will you please escort the witness out of
2 the courtroom for a moment.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, I
5 wanted to say that we should all respect the Rules and in particular the
6 Prosecution with regard to your Chamber. I was quite shocked, but I
7 didn't react so as not to waste any time and so as not to cause an
8 incident in front of the witness -- I was shocked to see that the
9 Prosecution did not hesitate to put its own positions in a state of
10 perjury in order to guide the witness. My learned colleague presented
11 this witness with an incident, said that if there was a shot, there was
12 never smoke, and this was presented as a fact. If you remember - I can't
13 check it here, because that was in another courtroom - throughout this
14 process, when there is a tank firing in Sarajevo, the Prosecution would
15 ask the witness to verify that fire had been opened from automatic weapons
16 on this tank on the basis that one saw smoke coming out of the barrel, of
17 the cannon. There were even scenes when one froze the image on the screen
18 to ask the witness whether he saw smoke coming out of the weapon in order
19 to try and obtain the response from the witness. And today one has
20 presented as an affirmation the contrary.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first see. What part are you actually
22 referring to, so I can better refer you to about smoke and --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if this has to
24 do with the past, I can't do it. It was in another hearing that this
25 happened. But the question is on page 53. It's page 53.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see what is on page 53.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Yes, correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please refer to the words so it's quicker
4 to get there. You said smoke was one of the words? Then I'll find the --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think it's 53,
6 Mr. President. I made a note of it. The witness said -- "it's evident."
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please guide me more. I have the word
8 "smoke." First I am looking for --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE ORIE: What I read is: "If you consider that all these
11 elements, the distances were the same with regard to an incoming round as
12 well as an outgoing round, would you not agree with me that factors such
13 as sound --"
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, Mr. President, when you're
15 reading, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: "Would you not agree with me that factors such as
17 sound, smoke, and the feel of the vibration assists one in monitoring or
18 observing an incoming round much better than an outgoing round?" That is
19 where I see "smoke" appearing in a question from the Prosecution.
20 When I did understand your observation, which was put in rather
21 strong words - if I do understand your observation well - you suggested
22 that by asking this question, Ms. Mahindaratne suggested, and therefore as
23 I did understand you well in this way, lured the witness almost into a
24 perjury that -- she suggested that there would be no smoke to be noticed
25 in an outgoing -- when the fire was outgoing --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Didn't she say that?
2 JUDGE ORIE: What I understood this question to be is that smoke,
3 sound, and the feeling of vibration would give a better opportunity to
4 observe incoming rounds than outgoing rounds. I did not understand, for
5 example, that Ms. Mahindaratne suggested that it would make no noise.
6 That's the reference to -- that's the sound.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: She has stated this. I am watching my words.
8 That's what she stated.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. She said that there would be a better --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I disagree with you. [In
11 English] -- There is no smoke.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, then I have it wrong. I did read a part -- and I
13 would be highly appreciate it if you then would --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is not the first time,
15 Mr. President. That is something that --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that's exactly the reason why I
17 asked you to guide me to the PLACE you're referring to. I did read that
18 part. I did read it slowly in order to give an opportunity to tell that I
19 was reading the right or the wrong part. So I take it then that you would
20 like to bring me to another part. Then please guide me further.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can find this on page 53,
22 line 5. It's possible that my computer is not telling the truth. But if
23 I am saying something and asking the witness to leave, I am not doing this
24 for anyone's amusement, certainly not for that of your Chamber. And
25 perhaps my words were very strong, but I was very clear that the Defence
1 cannot admit that within the framework of these proceedings, things are
2 being said on such important facts and then suddenly tables are turned and
3 their position, the contrary is stated, while no one, in your Chamber
4 included, no one reacts.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just see. The line you just referred me
6 to is page 53, line 5. Let me just first read and see what the context
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may respond.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Mahindaratne, I have now seen you have
10 asked in page 52 whether factors such as sound, smoke, and perhaps the
11 field of vibration would be the factors that would assist an UNMO, whether
12 that would be the case.
13 The witness then answered: "Yes, of course."
14 And then your next question reads in the transcript: "In the case
15 of outgoing rounds, there's no smoke."
16 And then the witness answers: "Obviously."
17 Please respond, because that's the part we are dealing with.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, this line of questioning was
19 with regard to the discrepancy, if I may use that word --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: -- Between the incoming rounds and outgoing
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear, yes.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Which was with regard to incoming mortar rounds
25 and incoming artillery rounds. And clearly the witness has understood my
1 line of questioning because he goes on to say - if I may draw your
2 attention, Mr. President -
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The initial question was: "Let me put it to
5 you in a different way. In the case of incoming rounds, there are factors
6 such as sound, smoke, and perhaps the field of vibration, which are
7 factors that would assist UNMO to observe the incoming round. Isn't that
8 the case?"
9 And the witness not only answers, Mr. President, he goes on to say
10 further --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: -- He says: "Okay. Finally I've understood
13 what you are asking me. Well, of course, for all this is three
14 parameters, like smoke -- like just light when it's explosion and
15 vibration. Of course it's more easily -- could be easily observed by
17 Now, clearly in the case of mortars and artillery, there is no
18 smoke when a round is fired. I think what Mr. Piletta-Zanin is referred
19 to, in terms of the Prosecution's position with regard to being seen smoke
20 at the point of firing is tank fire.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And it is certainly not a contradiction in
23 terms of the position taken by the Prosecution. The line of questioning
24 has been understood very well by the witness, and I cannot see why it
25 cannot be understood by the learned Defence counsel.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I be heard,
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that there are two
6 words that I can see in English. We're speaking here about the outgoing
7 and incoming rounds. And it is very clear that this question was asked in
8 general about methods of observation. We know that there were several.
9 There were different types of weapons. There's artillery, in the
10 artillery. There are tanks that are used in different modes, and the same
11 thing goes for anti-aircraft weapons. And I believe that this explanation
12 is almost far fetched of -- the Prosecution stated contrary to what they
13 had stated in the past, and we do not accept, and I don't think that the
14 positions can be changed so much in the course of the proceedings unless
15 this is clearly stated.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do understand that
17 you strongly oppose against the way Ms. Mahindaratne expressed herself.
18 What procedural consequences do you think the Chamber should attach to it?
19 Should the answer be struck because the witness was most -- I'm just
20 trying to find out, apart from that you want to express your
21 dissatisfaction with the way the -- Ms. Mahindaratne put her question, in
22 your view, what else, apart from expressing your dissatisfaction, you'd
23 like to Chamber to do about this? To strike the answer, to -- then we can
24 take a decision, apart from having heard your -- yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very
1 much. But I believe that the Chamber should decide what they have to do.
2 They have to look at what has been said prior to this in the framework of
3 the questions that were asked by the Prosecution in relation to the rounds
4 and when the smoke was mentioned regarding the outgoing fire; the first
5 solution. The second solution: Everything that has to do with this
6 question has to be stricken. And that solution is we have to make sure
7 that this problem doesn't arise again, that this is stressed in
8 particular, because this has very disagreeable consequences for the
9 Defence and, of course, for General Galic; for everyone, in fact, inside
10 and around this courtroom. Thank you.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I propose that the learned Defence counsel
14 produces the -- the portion of the transcript which he says is
15 contradictory to the question that was put to this witness today.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with pleasure.
17 But I have already said, and I believe that I am less and less understood
18 and heard, I cannot do it because this hearing happened in another
19 courtroom and we know that the recording of the transcript happening in
20 one courtroom cannot be transferred to another.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just stop you. I did understand the request
22 of Ms. Mahindaratne that you would indicate what part of today's
23 transcript should be taken out, ignored, or not being part of the
24 evaluation. That was, I think, what she asked you to indicate.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I am leaving it up to
1 the Chamber.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So your request is to strike out that part of
3 the transcript that would be contaminated by this question.
4 The Chamber will consider the matter and give a decision on your
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I also propose that the learned counsel
9 suggests that this portion is contradictory to a position taken by the
10 Prosecution, that the portion of that transcript which is supposed to be
11 contradictory to the question put to this witness has not been put forth,
12 not indicated, even in terms of a page number. So let --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the -- the Defence could not do that ...
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Perhaps, Mr. President, if I may just point
16 out: Over the weekend, Mr. Piletta-Zanin could find the portion of the
17 evidence led by -- or the question taken by the Prosecution.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I can -- here we find one of the disadvantages of the
19 splitting up the tasks of the -- of the Prosecution. It's the
20 recollection of the Chamber that evidence has been presented where on a
21 video a tank appears from behind a building - I think it was a
22 house - fires, and I think the Defence is pointing at that video image
23 where it appears that smoke -- there's smoke. Whether there's firing, I
24 don't know. But at least there was smoke, and the tank seems to have --
25 and then the tank is hiding again -- I think that's the part the Defence
1 is referring to, and I think that there is no specific need, if you would
2 look at the videos --
3 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very
5 much, my learned colleague, that she's interested in my weekend
6 professionally speaking. I believe that from memory I can say that the
7 witness was quoted, but now we are going to check whether this was a
8 protected witness. And I'm told yes. So in order not to make an
9 error -- we believe that was -- that was Witness D, "D" as in "debate,"
10 Mr. President.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, just in the interest of time
12 factor. If I may clearly point out my question related to mortars and
13 artillery, because that was the larger part of the discrepancy between
14 incoming rounds and outgoing rounds related to that, with regard to the
15 documents that are shown to the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If any of the parties would like to submit
17 anything more - and I think I gave sufficient guidance to the Prosecution
18 to identify the evidence is Defence is referring to - if any of the
19 parties would add something to what has been said until now, they have an
20 opportunity to do so in writing until next Monday by 12.00. The Chamber
21 has heard the consequences the Defence considers to be appropriate to be
22 attached to the objection they've made. The Chamber will then consider
23 the matter and will give a decision on the request.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And one more question: I might have misunderstood
1 you, Ms. Mahindaratne, where I said that you were asking the Defence to
2 indicate what part of the transcript. I now -- my attention was drawn to
3 the fact that you were actually asking the source of where it would have
4 been the Prosecution's position that smoke did appear when firing a tank.
5 But the second question would be that Mr. Piletta-Zanin left it to
6 the Chamber, but the second question then was my question and not yours.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very
8 much for your position, and I take note, so I will not react during the
9 weekend - perhaps later on, but I don't think so - but for the time being
10 I'm going to have to ask certain questions about this aspect, regarding
11 the smoke, and I'm going to do it at the same time not knowing what
12 your -- the outcome will be, what your final position will be.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's just assume. Is there any difference in
14 position as far as the Defence and the Prosecution are concerned that a
15 tank firing produces some smoke?
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Wouldn't it be the wisest thing then to do to
18 put to the witness that where it has been said to him that outgoing fire
19 would produce no smoke, that the Prosecution did not suggest with that
20 that none of the weaponry mentioned would produce any smoke when firing
21 and whether if adjusted in this way, the witness would have reason to
22 change his answer. Would that be a solution that would --
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I would say so. Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I am
1 suggesting is that I can simply ask -- because this procedure shocked me a
2 great deal -- I can perhaps ask a rather leading question of the witness
3 whether weapons, AA, tanks, heavy machine-guns included in the artillery,
4 whether they produced smoke, whether smoke was coming out of those
5 barrels, and then we can conclude the rest. And the Defence is not
6 absolutely certain that large-calibre mortars do not produce a little bit
7 of smoke, when we know that some of them have propulsive discharges.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then I take it that the answers to those
9 questions should be considered by the Chamber, isn't it? Yes.
10 Would it then still be necessary to take a decision on striking
11 out the earlier answers? Because if they're contradicted, then --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence leaves it up to
15 the authority of your Chamber, whatever the measures are to be taken --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then try to resolve the matter in
18 The witness may be brought into the courtroom again.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I apologise for this interruption.
25 Earlier today you were asked one and even more than one question regarding
1 the smoke that was produced or not produced by certain weapons when there
2 are outgoing shots, outgoing rounds. I am now going to ask you some
3 questions that, with the leave of everyone, perhaps could be slightly
4 leading questions.
5 Witness, weapons such as anti-aircraft cannons, tanks, heavy
6 machine-guns, field guns, et cetera, these weapons, do they produce smoke
7 at the moment when the round is fired? No matter how much there is of
8 some smoke, but is there some smoke.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object to the use of the word
10 "field guns, et cetera." These weapons --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer the question in respect of
12 the weaponry mentioned by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 THE WITNESS: Well, what is concerning all the weapons mentioned
14 are, first of all, we are -- I think the defender meant incoming. Or
15 maybe I'm confused.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --
17 THE WITNESS: Or maybe it's translation.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kruk, does an anti-aircraft cannon produce smoke
19 even if only a small portion when firing?
20 THE WITNESS: Of course not. It's -- actually anti-aircraft
21 cannon, just will produce small fire in the muzzle. And it's -- they fire
22 one by one or in bursts.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the question was: Would they produce
24 smoke, even if it would be little?
25 THE WITNESS: No.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then the same question for tanks.
2 THE WITNESS: For when outgoing fire doesn't produce smoke.
3 JUDGE ORIE: In tanks.
4 Then heavy machine-guns.
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Field guns?
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, you were asked about the sensations you could feel at the
11 level of vibrations in the field, the physical vibrations and the sound
12 you could hear and other sensations. The question I want to ask you has
13 to do with the military observers, whether on the Lima or Papa side, were
14 they close to monitored pieces. And in particular, when we are referring
15 or if we are discussing outgoing fire.
16 A. What does it mean "pieces"?
17 Q. I apologise. It was a translation error. Weapons. Pieces would
18 refer to the battery.
19 A. Mm-hm.
20 Q. Or any other kind of weapon.
21 A. Most of these weapons, they were stationed in closed [Realtime
22 transcript read in error "those"] positions. And in this case UNMOs could
23 only hear the outgoing fire from these kind of weapons.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Just for the transcript, I wonder whether the
25 witness said "those positions" or "closed positions."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness to repeat his answer.
2 THE WITNESS: Well, closed positions, it means a weapon like
3 mortar, like artillery. It's stationed on the closed position. It means
4 it cannot be seen. It's a military term, actually.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, it's
6 closed position. Thank you.
7 Q. So in fact, these are positions the location of which you weren't
8 aware of; is that correct?
9 A. You mean positions which UNMO were aware or -- because this
10 questions referred to UNMOs.
11 Q. This still has to do with the observers. It's still in relation
12 to the observers.
13 A. Of course they knew this approximate location of these positions,
14 and that's why they could [Realtime transcript read in error "couldn't"]
15 monitor when these kind of weapons were fired and so on.
16 Q. Very well.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
19 Q. Witness --
20 THE WITNESS: It's a correction.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: As I recall, the witness said that's "why they
22 could monitor" and it has been recorded as "couldn't monitor."
23 THE WITNESS: Could, could, could.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It has been rectified.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you, witness. And as a result, in relation to this question
3 of whether it was close or not, did the observation units, the UN
4 observation unit have the obligation of holding positions by the weapons
5 in question -- the weapons in question?
6 A. What does it mean "holding"? What does it mean to hold positions?
7 Q. [In English] To have people on site. Only to have people on site,
8 next to the weapons. Still talking about UNMOs, of course. Was that an
9 obligation; yes or no?
10 A. Obligations to keep UNMOs next to these positions.
11 Q. Correct. Next to the weapons.
12 A. Well, as far as -- as far as I remember, military observers were
13 placed especially for their purpose to monitor cease-fire violations. It
14 means outgoing/incoming fire. And the positions were chosen to have a
15 possibility to monitor as much as possible territory which were -- which
16 led just from observation post. But as well, it was taken in
17 consideration that these observation posts were not so close to -- to
18 confrontation line and to positions which existed at that time on
19 confrontation line.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Witness, can you remind us - because
21 we're always discussing the matter of positions - how many positions were
22 there, as far as you know, in terms of the Papa and the Lima position, as
23 far as your stay there is concerned, during that period?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And with the assistance of the
25 usher, we could put the map on the ELMO in order to save time.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: This is not a matter that arose in
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can I respond briefly. I
7 think it did, because the problem is as follows. We're talking about
8 physical sensations and visual sensations. Obviously if there are many
9 places next to the weapons, this is understandable. But if it's all
10 dispersed, it's less understandable.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If we -- I don't know what the purpose of this
12 question is. We heard evidence on where the Papa and Lima observation
13 posts were very specific in certain parts of time. It's not my
14 recollection that there was great disagreement between the parties on the
15 positions of the Papa and Lima observation posts during that time. So
16 therefore, I wonder whether -- unless --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There's a difference with
18 regard to one point. One of the points it changed. But I don't want to
19 talk about this in front of the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I don't think that it arises out from
21 cross-examination to go through positions of all the Lima posts. But
22 if -- of course, if it would be of any assistance for any of your next
23 questions, then we could just ask whether he knows where they were and
24 then put the next question and just assume that where this 95 per cent
25 agreement --
1 Yes, please.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's the case. Thank you.
3 Q. Could you answer the question, such as it has been phrased, and
4 first with regard to Papa.
5 A. Well, as far as I remember, the situation was as follows: We had
6 five Papas placed in different parts of the city. And what is concerning
7 Lima: They actually reported in a different way. I can explain why,
8 because sometimes --
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. First the question was whether you were aware of
10 where these observation posts --
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You know that.
13 Okay. Please proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,
15 Mr. President.
16 Q. On the basis of your answer, witness, and bearing in mind what you
17 yourself answered, with regard to the traces of smoke, the flashes, et
18 cetera, from these five Papa posts was it possible to have a global view
19 on all the sides of the town -- of all the sides of the town, including
20 the sides of buildings? And when I say "global," I mean the totality.
21 A. Well, I can say that I don't think it was possible to cover all
22 the areas.
23 Q. Thank you. I'll stop you there. This is why I asked you my
24 question. If, for example, there is a shot which intervenes on the
25 side -- which happens on the side of a facade which is not visible and at
1 a certain distance from a Papa post or Papa posts, what is the sensation
2 that allows you to report on its existence, if of course there are any
3 such elements, since you can't see a flash and you can't see any smoke?
4 A. I think we returned the same situation as it was before. From one
5 point -- at that time I was an ops officer but not UNMO. Of course you
6 are right. If you cannot see the light when explosion just hit the ground
7 or something, you cannot -- well, you can see some black smoke, but it
8 depends on many things as well, but --
9 Q. Very well. I have to stop you. I've got the gist of your answer.
10 My question is as follows. And I'm now referring to mortars, to mortar
11 shells. This type of a mortar, does it produce a lot of smoke, not very
12 much smoke, or whatever, when it explodes?
13 A. Yes, of course. It produces smoke.
14 Q. The question was: A lot or a little?
15 A. It depends on the calibre of mortar.
16 Q. Thank you. This will be my very last question.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we put the map on the
18 ELMO again, please.
19 Q. Witness, you said that the logistics section that you reported to
20 was, and I quote: [In English] "Next to UN camp." [Interpretation] That
21 is to say, right next to the installation in question. You mentioned the
22 rail. Could you tell us where this separation fence was located, if you
23 know anything about this. Could you tell us roughly.
24 A. Here was, I believe, our --
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. I'm sorry. I came in
1 a little late. The witness did not report that there was a logistic
2 section. He only merely said that --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, we have been talking about a
4 logistic section of which we all know that the witness heard that it was
5 there and that he was told what the position of that base was that was
6 behind the fence. So let's just hear whether there's any further
7 information and whether there might have been something else there
8 that -- we do not know yet.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Yes. Could you simply answer the question, because I didn't hear
12 that. Would you be capable of pinpointing on this map very roughly the
13 position of the fence that you mentioned.
14 A. Well, the building was divided just two ways: This way and this
15 way. And here somewhere was the end of UN camp, somewhere here.
16 Q. Very well. And the separation line, the fence itself, did it
17 continue in the barracks?
18 A. Well, actually, that area, where was the fence, there was a
19 storage place for battalion, and I actually -- maybe I went there once.
20 That's why -- I don't remember details.
21 Q. Very well. Witness, with regard to your visits, you stated that
22 you went there three or four times. It doesn't really matter how many
23 times. I'd like to know whether when you went there, perhaps later, do
24 you know if there were any exchanges of fire in that zone?
25 A. Well, when I was -- when I visited battalion at that time, I heard
1 only from the territory of this battalion some -- a few explosions, and
2 most of information I had from Ukrainian officers or from daily situation
4 Q. But do you know whether there were any exchanges of fire in the
5 zone, small arms?
6 A. Yes. According to reports of our battalion, there was some
7 exchange of fire, some shelling.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,
10 Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the sake of the transcript, I refer to
12 where the witness is pointing at when he indicated where the fence would
13 have been. He was pointing at the northern wing of what he indicated to
14 be the Tito barracks, approximately in the middle of that wing.
15 And may I ask you just for one clarification of your last answer:
16 When you said your exchange of fire, it was reported in one of the
17 questions that said when you heard exchange of fire when you were there.
18 Could you please clarify on whether, apart from exchange of fire being
19 reported, that there had also been exchange of fire when you visited the
21 THE WITNESS: When I visited battalion, I didn't hear any exchange
22 of fire. I heard some explosions but not -- not very close to location of
23 our battalion. It was actually somewhere on some distance.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you, Mr. Kruk.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE ORIE: You said that when you were on your engineering
4 mission that once small arm fire took place, that very soon retaliation by
5 a mortar took place. Could you tell us what you understood to be "very
6 soon." How much time elapsed approximately between the fire from small
7 arms and the retaliation by mortar fire?
8 A. Maybe 10, 15 minutes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.
10 Mr. Kruk -- and I don't think this causes any questions.
11 Mr. Kruk, this concludes your evidence in this court. You've
12 answered many questions from the parties and there was only one question
13 from the Bench. Nevertheless, we thank you for having answered all our
14 questions, and we'd like to wish you a safe journey home again.
15 We will adjourn until next Monday. We are sitting again in --
16 Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, still the Prosecution has no
18 indication as to the schedule of witnesses for next week. The fact that,
19 in fact, DP2 is coming on Tuesday and not Monday was also indicated when I
20 raised that issue this morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could deal with these matters
22 not -- I mean, there's nothing against the presence of the witness, but I
23 don't know whether he's that much interested to hear our procedural
25 So Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Kruk out of the
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. It's only this morning
5 when I -- there was this issue as to what would happen when DP2 comes on
6 Monday that we were informed that in fact DP2 will be coming only on
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: So we would be thankful if the Defence could
10 indicate and give us notice of the schedule of witnesses for next week.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the --
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence provided
13 the Prosecution with a submission in good time in which it said which
14 witnesses would be appearing next week. I am now trying to see whether I
15 have brought that submission with me, but I am sure that I informed them.
16 And according to the schedule, given the current situation, on Monday we
17 were to continue with examining Bukva Milorad and then Milenko Indjic on
18 Monday, but DP2 is also a witness who should be examined that week.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the names you just mentioned are not
20 protected or there's not sought any protection for them?
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. Mr. President --
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The letter learned counsel is referring to does
23 not indicate as to who's coming when. Just the names have been given in
24 a --
25 JUDGE ORIE: With whom are we starting next Monday,
1 Ms. Pilipovic? Is it in the order you indicated just when you read the
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the only possibility, since
6 the witnesses are here. But I'll provide this today. I'll provide the
7 time and the schedule, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] As for the remainder of the week,
10 the witness suggests Sinisa Krsman and Sasa Knezevic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In respect of this list, did we receive
12 summaries or are they separate?
13 Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps we'll go into private session for one
15 [Private session]
12 Page 18307 – redacted – private session
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
15 at 1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
16 the 27th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.