1 Thursday, 30 January 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you
7 please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning. This is Case
9 Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Indic, may I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn
12 declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony yesterday.
13 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 WITNESS: MILENKO INDIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]
18 Q. Good morning to everyone. Good morning, Mr. Indic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Witness, yesterday we broke off at the question of verbal
21 protests, and what you would do once you received a verbal protest. You
22 said that following the reception of a verbal protest, you would try and
23 see the situation. Can I first ask you, who would you first do this with,
24 to look if the protest was complete?
25 A. Considering that there were norms, standards, accepted what a
1 protest would have to include so that it can then be reacted upon, every
2 member of our group was able to assess whether all the elements
3 necessary -- necessary elements were present.
4 Q. Thank you. You told us that there were norms, standards,
5 according to which it was possible to assess whether a protest was
6 complete. Could you tell us what would that include according to you?
7 What were these norms, according to which you would assess that it was a
8 standard -- complete protest?
9 A. In order to react properly, adequately, upon a protest, it was
10 necessary for the protest to include the time, the location, the area of
11 firing or a direction of firing if it was firing or an operation.
12 Whenever it was possible, it would need to include the type of weapon that
13 was fired and the consequences of the firing.
14 Q. Now that you've told us the six elements that were necessary to
15 satisfy a norm, that is, you say existed in terms of the contents or the
16 completeness of the protest, can you tell us of those elements, that is,
17 the time, location, the area, the direction of firing, the type of weapon,
18 and the consequences, which one of these elements were included in a
19 protest that you received?
20 A. Most of the time, the protests were incomplete, and they had some
21 general data given. For instance, it wouldn't include the exact time.
22 For instance, it would say in the course of yesterday, there was firing in
23 the area of Marin Dvor. Those kind of protests was useless. And nothing
24 can be taken, no measures can be taken if the protest remains in this
1 Q. Thank you. So once you've told us that you needed to look at the
2 complete picture of the protest, and now you've told us what a protest
3 would look like, the one that you received, what steps would you then take
4 to receive information in order to see the whole picture of the protest?
5 Who would do that? Who would take the steps?
6 A. So that the protest doesn't remain just a formal matter, but it
7 actually -- something can be done, some measures can be taken following
8 the protest, the first thing we would do is that those who would give the
9 protest to us directly and in a specific case, those would be the military
10 observers of the United Nations, we would then ask from them to give
11 additional supplemental information to the protest, as much as they were
12 able to.
13 Q. When you say that you would ask from UN members who would be
14 addressing protests to you once you've asked them to add additional
15 information, could you tell us what kind of responses did you receive from
16 UN members? In a sense, what kind of return information did you receive
17 in order to complete the protest?
18 A. It seems incredible, but following our requests, we never received
19 any additional information in relation to these protests. And so, we
20 believed that then the opposing side, which had put in the formal protest
21 through the UN, had either decided not to lodge any protest or that simply
22 there was no reason to do so.
23 Q. You said that there were two reasons, either that the protest
24 wasn't real or that there was a misinformation. Can you tell us, in what
25 sense would that have been misinformation?
1 A. I have to say that in some cases, communication systems of the UN
2 and of the instance of protests which went through the UN military
3 observers would be used to misinform the enemy, the opponent. I state
4 this because occasionally, we used this instance in order to misinform the
6 Q. Mr. Indic, can you tell us, in your opinion, UN officers -- first
7 of all, in your opinion, were they aware of the disposition of positions
8 of the BH army and the Army of Republika Srpska? And if they were, to
9 what extent were they?
10 A. I don't want to assess the level of expertise of UN members who
11 were deployed in our areas. I don't want to be unfair. But I have to say
12 that their number as well as the mandate for their mission, it reflected
13 negatively on their possibility to see the situation of the front and the
14 daily events on both sides of the front line. Not just to see that
15 situation, but also to understand it.
16 Q. Mr. Indic, when you were telling us about the completeness of
17 protests, you told us that you wanted some return information and that
18 protests were very frequently incomplete. Can you tell us if there were
19 any cases in which you would receive protests where you had some elements
20 on the basis of which you were able to check and, as you said, react
21 through the duty officer to the protest received? What was it that the
22 duty officer was able to do if the protest did include time, location, and
23 the area?
24 A. A series of protests were received that we were able to handle
25 timely, and I really have to stress the word "timely," in timely fashion.
1 These were protests that we received directly from military observers
2 during the time while combat operations were ongoing. Those kind of
3 protests were then simultaneously addressed from the command of the
4 military observers to the command of the Sarajevo sector to both sides.
5 Once such a protest arrived with the request to stop firing, we would then
6 take this protest to the duty operations officer at the corps command.
7 Q. Can you tell us, the duty operations officer at the corps command,
8 what steps would he take -- what steps was he able to take in order to
9 react on a protest that he received?
10 A. In coordination with representative of our group, the duty
11 operations officer would call the brigade commander from the area of
12 responsibility in question, the one that was listed as where firing
13 operations were ongoing, first of all, in order to check the authenticity
14 of the protest received and to see what really was going on on the ground.
15 As I've already said, mostly these were combat operations on both sides,
16 mutual combat operations, following a desire that was expressed to stop
17 the firing operations by both sides, military observers would then mediate
18 in order to establish the exact time when the firing or the operations
19 would stop.
20 Q. When you told us that the duty operations officer would forward
21 the protest to the brigade commander in whose area of responsibility there
22 were operations of firing according to the information received, can you
23 tell us if the brigade commander had the obligation to give a return
24 information upon the protest received, if this -- if there was firing or
25 operations in his area of responsibility to the duty operations officer?
1 A. Perhaps this has not been put in the best possibly military
2 vocabulary. The duty operations officer does not forward this to the
3 brigade commander, but he asks from the brigade commander a kind of
4 interim combat report to find out what's really happening in the area of
5 responsibility of his brigade.
6 Q. So if I've understood you correctly, the brigade commander does
7 submit a report to the duty officer what's happening in his area of
9 A. Yes. The brigade commander has to reply to the duty officer and
10 say what's happening in his area of responsibility, the area of
11 responsibility of the brigade.
12 Q. Do you personally have information or knowledge if such checks
13 occurred? What were brigade commanders informing the duty officer or you,
14 considering that your group received the protests? Did you then tell the
15 UN, inform the UN, that you did carry out the check, and what information
16 was received?
17 A. Considering that we respected the principle that there was a
18 return information to those who had lodged a protest, in this case, that
19 would be UN military observers, throughout the procedure, we would follow
20 what the duty officer was doing. And as much as this was necessary, we
21 would inform the military observers of the UN about the results.
22 Q. You now told us what the protest would be like, for instance,
23 during the course of yesterday, there was firing or operation in such and
24 such an area and there was firing. On any occasion, do you recall that
25 you received a protest saying that SRK forces were firing with snipers or
1 did the protest say they were using infantry weapons? So in the sense of
2 such a definition, did you receive either one or the other or both?
3 A. It is interesting that it seems that in the area of SRK, there was
4 no waging war with infantry weapons because what term was used, that all
5 types of infantry weapons were called snipers. And that's how the
6 protests were written. Whenever infantry weapons were fired, then in the
7 protests, there would be mention of sniper activity, sniper firing. It
8 seems absurd, but according to the protests, a sniper could even use a
9 burst mode.
10 Q. Mr. Indic, do you recall if you have ever in your group for
11 cooperation while you worked as a liaison officer, did you receive a
12 protest in a sense as you've said, with the time, with the location, with
13 the direction of firing, and type of weapon, and that in that protest is
14 said as a consequence, such and such a number of people were killed or
15 this person was killed specifically? Do you -- did you receive these kind
16 of protests?
17 A. Decisively, I say that I have never received protest in this form.
18 Q. When you were speaking about the protests, you said that also the
19 Serb side lodged protests through the UN military observers, and I believe
20 you also said through liaison officers within which was the liaison
21 officer for battalions. Can you tell us what were the protests like that
22 you lodged in?
23 A. One feature of the protests that were sent by our side was that
24 they were not so numerous for the simple reason that there was a natural
25 characteristic that Serbs do not want to complain a great deal to someone
1 else about their own problems. Most frequently protests by our side were
2 lodged at the time when cease-fires had been signed and agreed because
3 there were violations of cease-fires by the Muslim side, either by opening
4 fire or by engineering works or by regrouping their forces and their
6 Q. Mr. Indic, can you tell us, if you recall, that in the course of
7 your service you've ever received a protest that in a certain part of
8 town, there was an incident that occurred when many civilians -- where
9 many civilians were killed and that it was specified when and where this
10 occurred, in which part of the city under Muslim control?
11 A. I did not receive this kind of protest.
12 Q. Mr. Indic, you said that apart from verbal protest, you also
13 received written protests. Can you tell us, what were the conditions
14 usually that these protests arrived in? That is, the reasons when these
15 written protests arrived.
16 A. Written protests were mostly related to cease-fire violations in
17 the period when such cease-fires were signed and agreed, and the protests
18 were sent, as I've already told you, simultaneously to both sides. The
19 second kind of written protests were protests that were sent if for any
20 reason there was a threat that existed for a UN unit or UN members.
21 Q. Can you tell us, according to your recollection, how many such
22 written protests did you receive and what was the reason -- what was
23 written? In fact, you did say that was mostly because of cease-fire
24 violations. But can you recall how many of such written protests there
25 were and what would you do then upon receipt of such written protests?
1 A. It's hard for me to say numerically how many such written protests
2 were received, but I can say more or less that it was about 50, 50 or so,
3 as far as I was able to see. Upon receipt of a written protest, my
4 obligation, my duty, was to forward this protest to the corps commander
5 because it is always addressed to the corps commander, or if he was
6 absent, this would be forwarded to the chief of staff.
7 Q. Can you tell us whether you have any knowledge or information
8 whether the content of the protest was checked, and did you reply in
9 writing to such protests?
10 A. I don't know what the commander would do specifically after
11 receiving a protest. But it was always personally either the commander or
12 the chief of staff who would write a response to that protest, and that
13 would be given to our group, which would translate it and then send it to
14 whoever had addressed it in the first place.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President, the reference to the number
17 of written protests, could that be clarified in terms of what period of
18 time. I don't think that has been clarified.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, though I think you could have asked it in
20 cross-examination. But since you interrupted anyhow.
21 You said there were approximately 50 written protests. During
22 what period of time was that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I understood that we
24 were talking here about the relevant period, while General Galic was the
25 corps commander, and that was how I gave my answer in relation to that
2 JUDGE ORIE: So you're talking about September 1992 to August
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm talking about this period.
5 And I have to stress that the number of 50, I've used it as an approximate
6 approximation, not as a precise number.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. When you told us that you translated the contents of the responses
11 to those protests and that you sent them back from the person or the
12 instance that had sent out the protest in the first place, bearing that in
13 mind, can you tell us if the corps command ever lodged any protests?
14 A. Yes. A moment ago, I think I mentioned that it was in particular
15 during the periods of time that were subject to cease-fire agreements.
16 Those protests were usually related to cease-fire violations in any form
17 or shape.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence is in the
19 possession of a document which it had already disclosed to the
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic --
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And with your permission --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- You always indicate it was disclosed. The Chamber
24 expects that any document you show to a witness that it has been
25 disclosed. And please inform us if it has not been disclosed.
1 Mr. Usher, could you...
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, it's for the benefit of my
3 colleagues, Your Honour, that I say that because this is a document that
4 will be also produced later.
5 Q. It's D1840. Mr. Indic, do you have D1840 of the 21st of April,
6 1994 in front of you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mr. Indic, can you recognise this document, please?
9 A. Yes, I can. This is a protest that was sent by the SRK command to
10 the UNPROFOR command. The addressee -- the addressees were commanders
11 Rose and Soubirou.
12 Q. Tell us, please, something about the contents of this particular
14 A. It is about a failure to comply with the cease-fire on the part of
15 Muslims, and the protest specifies a number of such incidents, a number of
16 incidents where the cease-fire was violated.
17 Q. Can you read for us item number 2 of this document, Mr. Indic,
18 please. It starts with the words "the most characteristic examples..."
19 A. "The most characteristic examples of serious violations of
20 cease-fire are the following: During the whole day have infantry fire
21 over positions of the region in Okruglica."
22 Q. Can you confirm that the remaining items also briefly specify the
23 area where infantry fire was opened from?
24 A. All of the remaining points make mention of the type of fire,
25 where it came from, and what areas on our side were targeted. And at the
1 end, the protest also specifies the consequences including one fatality
2 and several incidents of wounding. Six seriously wounded persons.
3 Q. Mr. Indic, can you tell us if this protest that you now see in
4 front of you was signed by Brigadier General Stanislav Galic?
5 A. Yes, this is General Galic's signature.
6 Q. On the basis of your recollection, can you tell us whether at the
7 time you lodged these written protests, whether you ever received answers,
8 responses, to your written protests?
9 A. The written protests which were lodged in this form to the
10 UNPROFOR command were never given any response.
11 Q. Mr. Indic, you said that this was just a kind of written protest
12 that was sent from the corps command. I should like to know how often
13 this type of protests were sent to the UNPROFOR command, if you remember.
14 And tell us, please, if you ever received any response to such written
16 A. I have already indicated that the protests were mostly lodged
17 during the cease-fire, whenever the cease-fire was severely violated by
18 the Muslim side. Very often, these protests were just a compilation of
19 reports on cease-fire violations. And, I repeat, we never received any
20 response to any of these protests.
21 Q. Bearing in mind what you told us about written protests that were
22 sent to the sector commander or UNPROFOR command, can you describe for us
23 the cooperation with UNPROFOR members during the relevant period of times,
24 that is, between the time when General Galic took office and the time he
25 left? Do you have any knowledge as to how often any meetings took place
1 with UNPROFOR, and what were the results of such cooperation?
2 A. Let me begin with the easy part: That is, how often this
3 cooperation took place. If we were to assess it in view of the number of
4 meetings held, then I can say that it was very successful. I would even
5 venture and say that there were more meetings than it was actually
7 Q. Mr. Indic, let us be more precise. You told us that there had
8 been more meetings than necessary. What exactly did you mean when you
9 said that?
10 A. Well, I am referring, first of all, to the meetings that
11 General Galic as a corps commander held with UNPROFOR representatives.
12 Wishing to make a significant contribution on his behalf, he very often
13 held meetings with officers who held significantly lower rank in terms of
14 military hierarchy than he did. As a corps commander, he never refused to
15 have a meeting with a battalion commander of UNPROFOR, for instance.
16 Q. When speaking about the meetings that General Galic held with
17 lower ranking officers, because of his willingness to cooperate as best as
18 he could with UNPROFOR members, you mentioned the fact that he even
19 held -- had meetings with battalion commanders. Do you personally know
20 what battalion commanders the General met with during the relevant times?
21 And if you do, if you happened to be present at such meetings, do you know
22 what issues were discussed during such encounters?
23 A. In Sarajevo, UNPROFOR had four battalions, two French battalions,
24 one Ukrainian battalion, and one Egyptian battalion. As far as I know,
25 General Galic never met with the Egyptian battalion commander. He was the
1 only battalion commander that he didn't meet with because he never
2 requested such a meeting. As for the commanders of the remaining three
3 battalions, such meetings were held almost regularly. As for the
4 particular commanders, it's difficult to say because they rotated every
5 six months. I can perhaps mention some names, Sartre, Poulet, De Kermabon
7 Q. Were you ever present at any such meeting with battalion
8 commanders? And if yes, do you remember any subject that was discussed
9 with battalion commanders?
10 A. I would usually attend such meetings for the purposes of
11 organisation of such meetings and also in order to translate. The agenda
12 usually focussed on the specific mission of the battalion in question.
13 If, for instance, we were meeting with the French battalion, whose members
14 were tasked with guarding the airport, providing security at the airport,
15 then we would usually talk about the problems concerning the airport.
16 Humanitarian missions were also on the agenda, such as the situation with
17 the needs of the population in the given area and the ability of UN
18 members to help if any such help was requested. The issues of various
19 types of repair work and maintenance and so on and so forth. Of course,
20 we would always exchange opinions as to how to achieve a cessation of
21 hostilities and to create appropriate conditions for the politicians to
22 end the war.
23 Q. So you do remember these meetings, and you attended them and you
24 told us about the agenda of such meetings. Tell us, please, do you
25 remember, at any such meeting held with battalion commanders, do you
1 remember any complaints being -- having been voiced by such battalion
2 commanders in their discussions with the General to the effect that
3 members of the SRK and your services were not cooperative, were not acting
4 upon the protests, and were refusing to work with them? Do you remember
5 any such discussions having taken place during those meetings?
6 A. No such assessments were ever made. Quite the contrary: Full
7 satisfaction was often expressed by all members of the UN. With the level
8 of cooperation that they were receiving from our side. They even went so
9 far as to openly declare that whenever they attended, they had a meeting
10 with our side, it was almost like a rest for them, that they were resting
11 during such meetings.
12 There were comments from time to time made to that effect, but
13 they never resulted in any verbal conflict during such meetings.
14 Q. Mr. Indic, in view of the fact that you attended some of these
15 meetings, both in your capacity as a liaison officer and an interpreter,
16 can you tell us whether any other interpreters were ever present at such
18 A. UN members who came to these meetings would usually come with
19 their interpreters who were local residents employed with the UN.
20 However, because of the fact that local employees were almost a hundred
21 per cent from the Muslim-controlled territory, we could not fully trust
22 their objectivity and professionalism when interpreting. So it was
23 necessary for someone from the group to be present at such meetings if
24 nothing for the purpose of controlling the accuracy of interpretation.
25 Q. When you said, Mr. Indic, that the General, wishing to overcome
1 all the problems in the SRK area of responsibility, also accepted meetings
2 with battalion commanders that you yourself attended, can you tell us
3 approximately the number of such meetings that you also attended?
4 A. In view of the number of the battalions in question that I already
5 mentioned, such a meeting would be held at least once a month.
6 Q. We have dealt with the issue of meetings with battalion
7 commanders. Can you tell us if there were any meetings at a higher level
8 between General Galic and sector commanders? And if so, did you attend
9 any of these, and tell us also how frequently they were?
10 A. Such meetings were held when necessary, that is, whenever it was
11 necessary, the corps commander and the Sarajevo sector commander would
12 meet together. On an average, such meetings took place every 15 or 20
13 days. But they could also be held more frequently. Sometimes
14 several -- on several days in a row. If it was necessary to achieve -- to
15 reach an agreement on a more significant issue.
16 The reason behind it being the fact that the sector command had to
17 act simultaneously with other commanders and hold a meeting on the same
18 day in the Lukavica building and at the 1st Corps command.
19 Q. Mr. Indic, these meetings that were held frequently, as you said,
20 and you indicated how frequent they were, did they result in any report
21 being submitted to the chief of staff? Were contents of these meetings
22 subject to any daily reports of the corps command?
23 A. It was an obligation of the corps command to inform the main staff
24 on the regular activities of the UN forces in the area of responsibility
25 of the corps. In addition to these regular reports, whenever a meeting
1 was held or whenever it was necessary to obtain the opinion of the main
2 staff concerning certain issues, special reports would also be sent out.
3 To conclude, the main staff was familiar with all the meetings
4 that the corps command held at its level with UNPROFOR.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would
6 like to show three documents to Mr. Indic. D467, 560, and 561.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, these documents, were they recently
8 disclosed or were they disclosed at an earlier stage?
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] At an earlier stage, Your Honour.
10 The documents were on the list of exhibits.
11 Q. Mr. Indic, would you be so kind and place the document on the
12 ELMO, please, so that we can all see it. 467, please. Let's have that
13 one, first. You can just put it on the ELMO.
14 Mr. Indic, do you have in front of you 467?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If it is easier for you, you can perhaps proceed with telling us
17 if the document is dated the 21st of February, 1994.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is this a regular combat report with a situation at 1700 sent out
20 to the VRS main staff?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In item number 5 of this document -- do you see a number 5?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Does it speak about the state of security and morale and the
25 control points under UNPROFOR's control and the deployment of the Russian
1 battalion that arrived at Grbavica?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is this document signed by General Stanislav Galic?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Mr. Indic, would you now please have a look at Document Number
6 560. Do you recognise this document?
7 A. This is also a regular combat report of the SRK command sent to
8 the VRS main staff dated the 30th of March, 1994.
9 Q. In this document under item 3, section (b), we read the words
10 "activity of UNPROFOR."
11 A. Yes. It is stated that a meeting was held between General Galic
12 and General Soubirou, and the schedule, the agenda of the meeting, is also
14 Q. The agenda being the usage of blue roads, the freedom of movement,
15 and the accommodation of new UNPROFOR units, and problems regarding weapon
16 collection, sites for grouping of our weapons?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Indic, once again, is this document signed by
19 General Stanislav Galic?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Document 561, please, Mr. Indic.
22 A. This is also a regular combat report of the SRK command sent to
23 the VRS main staff on the 31st of March, 1994.
24 Q. Under item 3, does this regular combat report describe the
25 situation on the territory, and under item (a) activities of UNPROFOR?
1 A. Yes, it states that a meeting was held between SRK commander and
2 Major General Kuksenko, UN liaison officer for the area of former
3 Yugoslavia and a commander of the Ukraine battalion in Sarajevo.
4 Q. Mr. Indic, in item 2 of item 3, it says that women and children
5 had blocked the road in Hadzici, and that the French convoy of UNPROFOR
6 was currently on the blockade as well as several vehicles of UNMOs?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is this document also signed by Major-General Stanislav Galic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now that I've shown you these three documents as three regular
11 daily reports and we saw that under item 3 of the documents 561 and 560,
12 there was an item entitled "UNPROFOR activity" and also in the other
13 document, although it was a different item. Could you tell us whether in
14 the regular daily reports, this was the type and the content -- the form
15 and the content of reporting as far as UNPROFOR activities are concerned?
16 A. Reporting on UNPROFOR activities in daily combat reports was an
17 obligatory item.
18 Q. Mr. Indic, after we have read Document 560 where it's reported
19 that there was a meeting held between Major-General Galic and General
20 Soubirou, and we saw that the agenda of meeting was use of blue roads,
21 freedom of movement, accommodation of new UNPROFOR units and problems
22 regarding the weapons collection sites, can you tell us, when you attended
23 these meetings, and if you did attend such meetings, apart from such items
24 on the agenda, was there any talk, any discussions, related to problems of
25 shelling and infantry fire or, as you say, it was usual to put sniping
1 fire on protests? Do you recall?
2 A. I've already said that at such meetings, there was talk both on
3 opening fire in cases when combat operations were ongoing, and there was
4 an attempt or there were attempts by UNPROFOR command to talk with both
5 sides and ensure that conditions are established to have a cease-fire.
6 Q. Do you recall if those meetings, when certain problems were
7 resolved in the area of responsibility of the corps and when sector
8 commander was present, these issues which were a problem and that were on
9 the agenda, when these issues were dealt with, what was the cooperation
10 like of the corps command? Specifically we're talking about when freedom
11 of movement was concerned and humanitarian aid, and also the use of blue
12 roads. So basically, what was the cooperation of the Sarajevo Romanija
13 Corps and of the general when it was necessary to deal and resolve certain
15 A. General Galic was always and expressed his readiness to resolve
16 every problem in a constructive manner. I assessed that UNPROFOR members
17 had a high regard for the degree of cooperation, judging this on the fact
18 that there was never a single remark -- there was never a criticism of the
19 level of cooperation of the cooperation given -- offered by the corps
21 Q. Mr. Indic, if you recall in the document 561, item 3, paragraph of
22 that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... To the
24 witness. It's 561.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].
1 Q. Mr. Indic, you read it under item 3, paragraph 2 that women and
2 children had blocked the road in Hadzici, and that there was a blocked
3 French UNPROFOR convoy as well as some UNMOs' vehicles. Do you have any
4 knowledge about this incident, personal knowledge of this incident?
5 A. Yes. I recall this extremely well. I recall the incident well.
6 And unfortunately, it wasn't the only one that happened. The problem of
7 the road blockade in Hadzici was caused by unsuccessful negotiations with
8 the Muslim side to release prisoners in prisons, Serb civilians from the
9 prison in Tarcin whose families were in Hadzici. The road blockade in
10 Hadzici was done by wives, mothers, and children of those imprisoned
12 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether this problem was successfully
13 resolved? Do you have any knowledge of that?
14 A. Unfortunately, the prison in Tarcin for which I have to express
15 that it contained only civilians was one of the last prisons in the former
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina that was closed down. And it was always used by the
17 Muslim side to have a group of hostages which were used in various ways
18 during negotiations.
19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Indic, you told us at some point that there were
20 meetings held at the corps command --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, are you finished with the documents
22 because in order to prevent that we have to put it back. I would have one
23 additional question. Would you please, Mr. Indic, look at these
24 documents, the document that is in front of you. You see that at the top,
25 and that's the same for all the three documents, you find a stamp which is
1 a stamp related to these proceedings. But there's also some handwriting
2 on it. It seems to start with "ST.POV" or ROV, and then a number and then
3 a date. Was that on these documents at that time as well, or has this
4 been added later as far as you know?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this writing in the
6 top right corner is exactly the same as what's in the left corner --
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I mean handwriting at the top. Could you
8 please point at it so that we know what we're talking about.
9 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's right.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was later put in. It wasn't in
12 the original document. The only thing that was done was to copy the
13 number of the documents into which it was entered in a log book. It was
14 just to copy it on the other side.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and the handwriting is -- that was put on it
16 when it was stored or have you any -- could you explain what it means, the
17 handwriting on the top right-hand corner.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea. This is not my
19 handwriting. It wasn't added in by me. But perhaps if the document was
20 sent anywhere by fax, and if the number could not be seen very well on the
21 document itself, perhaps it was added in black pen so that it could be
22 seen on the fax. Because the number is the same.
23 JUDGE ORIE: What number is the same? I see that the date is the
24 same. I see that --
25 THE WITNESS: [In English] Date is the same and the number is the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now I see. And these numbers, were they -- would
3 every new document get the next number, or was there any system in that?
4 Because I noticed that the document related to the 30th of March bears the
5 number 15.1.92. Whereas the document of the 31st of March bears the
6 number 15.1.93. Are these subsequent numbers for these kind of reports,
7 or could you explain what the number exactly is?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what was the principle
9 of registering, logging operation of documentation, so I'm afraid I can't
10 answer your question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Indic, you were telling us about morning meetings that were
14 held at the corps command.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell us whether you personally or someone on behalf of a
17 group for cooperation attended such morning meetings. And if you have,
18 how frequently was that?
19 A. Conditionally speaking, there were two types of morning meetings.
20 When there were intense combat operations on the ground, meetings were
21 held of only the core command, C-O-R-E command, at which the
22 representative of the UNPROFOR cooperation group was not present. If the
23 situation was normal, so to speak, there were extended meetings of the
24 core command, and then also the chief of the UNPROFOR cooperation group
25 was also present.
1 In the first part of the meeting which was in relation to
2 reporting and telling about the problems in the second part of the meeting
3 when the commander would issue, give orders for that day, then the chief
4 of the group, cooperation group, was not present.
5 Q. Mr. Indic, could you tell us if you know whether at such meetings,
6 brigade commanders were also present?
7 A. Generally speaking, brigade commanders did not attend meetings at
8 the corps command, only in cases when there were some biannual analysis
9 meetings or annual analysis meetings or when orders were issued that were
10 of general character and that related to the entire structure of the corps
11 command, then brigade commanders would attend.
12 Q. Mr. Indic, can you tell us whether you know, whether you're aware
13 of the existence of a standing, of a permanent order by General Galic
14 issued to brigade commanders about the duties, activities, obligations in
15 relation to artillery use, mortar use when enemy positions are fired on?
16 Do you have any knowledge about the contents of such orders?
17 A. Considering that liaison officers were not part of that system of
18 the chain of command, of the command and control, the orders that went to
19 the brigade commanders, that is something that remained unknown to us.
20 Q. Do you, as a corps member, did you know whether there was a rule
21 about brigade deployment?
22 A. Every brigade worked based on the rules for brigade deployment.
23 That is an official document. It's instructions, rules, regulations.
24 Q. When you say that every brigade worked on the basis of rules for
25 brigade deployment, did the brigade commander -- considering that such
1 rules existed in certain situations, when a brigade commander would have
2 to make a decision as to firing at a certain moment, did he need a
3 separate order by the corps command? We're speaking about the brigade
4 commander in the area of responsibility of his brigade.
5 A. In the rules, it is clearly specified when a unit can open fire
6 without the order of the superior command. These were situations when the
7 troops are under attack or facilities that this unit has in possession,
8 when there is an activity which is directly threatening the lives of
9 troops, and when the neighbouring unit is under attack. Even each
10 individual as a soldier must not wait for an order to open fire if he has
11 been attacked personally or the facility that he is protecting or his
12 neighbour on the position.
13 Q. If we look at your answer, in view of the brigade commander's
14 behaviour and the orders, did the brigade commander, if in the area of
15 responsibility of his brigade under his command, if there was a need to
16 open fire or to conduct operations or, if you say, another brigade was
17 attacked, did the brigade commander need or have to inform the corps
18 command if he did open fire, if he was to open fire?
19 A. Yes, that was the obligation duty of every commander to report to
20 the superior command about the opening of fire.
21 Q. The contents of such report submitted by the brigade commander,
22 when it was received by the corps, this report, did it go to the duty
23 operations officer, and was it included in the report to the corps
25 A. I have to repeat the same answer as before: As a liaison officer,
1 I was not within the system of the control and command to have access to
2 the reports that the brigade sent to the duty operations officer.
3 Q. Mr. Indic, can you tell us, what was the professional personnel of
4 the corps command after the corps command was established? That is, at
5 which level were members of the command personnel trained and also the
6 commanders of the subordinate units, lower units?
7 A. As far as I know, speaking about the established structure, it
8 wasn't professionally trained, but the manpower, they were professionally
9 trained, speaking about the officers that used to belong to the former
10 JNA. The professionalism existed also on the level of brigade commanders.
11 But the problem occurred below that level when because there was not a
12 sufficient number of professional officers, battalion commands and those
13 of lower units, they were staffed by persons who were not professional
15 Q. You told us yesterday that you arrived in Lukavica in September
16 1992. You told us that you attended morning meetings. Can you tell us
17 whether at any point during those meetings that you attended, was there
18 any talk of the objective of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
19 A. From the time of my arrival at Lukavica, I never heard at any
20 meeting in terms of an objective of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, at any
22 Q. You personally, can you tell us, bearing in mind the time that
23 you've spent in the corps, you personally, can you tell us what was the
25 A. Personally, as a qualified, educated officer, there was no -- a
1 strictly defined objective of the corps because in the area, there was an
2 interspersing of various military and political interests, not only
3 interests of the warring sides but much further afield. And all the
4 activities that were ongoing in the area, from all that, it could be
5 concluded undoubtedly that the main objective, the main aim of the corps
6 was to preserve the established front lines in Sarajevo.
7 Q. When you say that the main aim was to preserve the established
8 front lines in Sarajevo, can you tell us in your opinion when were these
9 front lines established?
10 A. I will probably be the first one who's going to say that these
11 front lines in terms of people's minds were established at the time when
12 there was a conflict in Croatia, from 1991. Anyone who wanted to see was
13 able to see that Bosnia and Herzegovina was going to face civil war. When
14 the first hostilities occurred, the so-called barricades were set up in
15 some areas of Sarajevo. And in fact, these barricades ethnically
16 demarcated areas of Sarajevo. With slight corrections, this line remained
17 until the end of the war.
18 Q. Mr. Indic, you told us yesterday that in September 1992, you were
19 forced to leave the PTT building because there was a physical threat to
20 you and to your associate, that you were threatened with being killed
21 personally by a Sarajevo criminal known as a Krusko?
22 A. As Krusko, yes.
23 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the existence of units that were
24 led by certain persons who had a criminal record? Do you know anything
25 about that, considering that you had lived in Sarajevo and that you were
1 born there?
2 A. In the very beginning of the war, it was allowed for the leading
3 role in war to be taken up by criminals, first of all, by Juka Prazina, by
4 Musan Topalovic, also known as Caco, by Cele 1, by Cele 2, Tope, and
5 similar other persons. I can't even remember their nicknames now. And
6 information regarding these groups, they can be gained through everyday
7 conversations as well as by talking to UN members because of the problems
8 they encountered when they met or when they had to deal with such groups.
9 And also, by talking to people who managed somehow to leave the part of
10 Sarajevo under Muslim control, and they were exposed -- they had been
11 exposed to various unpleasant things and harassment while they were in
12 that part of Sarajevo.
13 Q. Do you personally know whether these units were under the control
14 of the BH army? And if they were, from what time? Do you know that?
15 A. This was not something connected to my area of activities, so
16 these specific, precise details about placing such units under the
17 control, I don't know these details. I personally believe that these kind
18 of paramilitary units existed throughout the war under the area of
19 Muslim -- in the area of Sarajevo under Muslim control.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it is
21 now time for a break. And after the break, it is my co-counsel who will
22 use the time that's still available. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to address one matter
2 very briefly for the parties. The Defence is informed about a letter of
3 the Canadian authorities the senior legal officer has received. The
4 Chamber understands a response to that letter will be given by the Defence
5 itself, being the primarily responsible party for the subject matter of
6 examination of witnesses. So therefore, the senior legal officer will be
7 instructed to send a letter to the authorities indicating that they will
8 receive a direct answer from you, and at the same time the Chamber will
9 stress the importance of the appearance of Defence witnesses, and that if
10 there would be any security concerns, that the Chamber would be glad to
11 assist in resolving them.
12 So that's the situation. I take it that this is -- yes. Then,
13 please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, with the examination of -- if possible,
14 if we could possibly conclude the examination-in-chief by the next break,
15 that would be fine. Then you would still have 10 minutes left, but if you
16 would manage to do it in 5 minutes less --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, I will do my best.
18 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. To the extent it is
20 possible, I should be grateful if you could answer with yes or no. You
21 spoke about some military units. Do you remember this? Yes or no.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Let us focus on paramilitary units on the Serb side.
24 Can you briefly tell this Chamber if there were any difficulties to
25 control the phenomena, and second, what were the measures taken in order
1 to reduce or suppress these paramilitary units?
2 A. At the very beginning of the war, there existed a number of
3 paramilitary groups in the area of the SRK, as well. When I say
4 "paramilitary group," in order to be precise, I have to tell you that I'm
5 referring to the groups which did not respect the command and control
6 system. As for the specific measures that the corps command undertook in
7 order to place these groups under control, I'm afraid I cannot say
8 anything precisely, but I know that in the first half of 1993, these
9 groups were entirely disbanded, and their troops deployed in other units.
10 However, the paramilitary issue was not fully resolved by the mere
11 disbanding of these groups, in my opinion, because even a single
12 individual who acts contrary to the orders of his superior commander on
13 his own initiative, independently, can to a certain extent be considered
14 as paramilitary.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. The group by the name of St. George, does it
16 ring a bell?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you. What about the Vojvoda Brana group, does it sound
20 A. I must correct you. You probably wanted to say Vojvoda Brne.
21 Q. You're quite correct, I apologise. Vojvoda Brne, yes.
22 A. Yes, that was one of the paramilitary groups which was located at
23 the Rakovica/Blazuj location.
24 Q. What specific measures or sanctions were taken in that respect, if
25 you know?
1 A. I know about them.
2 Q. Thank you. What measures, please?
3 A. I know that a military police unit was dispatched with the task of
4 disbanding the said group. They were allowed to use force if necessary.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will see a
7 video in a second. But in order to save time, with the assistance of
8 Mr. Usher, let us distribute documents. But I will tell you when we will
9 read this document and view the video later on. But let us have them
10 distributed now.
11 Q. In the meantime, I should like to ask several other questions, in
12 particular concerning agreements. Witness, do you know whether the Serb
13 side wanted to sign as many agreements as possible with the opposing side
14 in order to achieve peace?
15 A. It was our commitment from the very beginning that a total
16 cessation of hostilities should take place, not only in the area of the
17 SRK but also in the entire territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 Q. Thank you. As far as I understand, your answer was given in
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Witness, in respect of the airport area, do you know
22 whether there were any such agreements and whether it was the will and the
23 willingness of the Serb side to have such agreements reached and whether
24 they were indeed implemented in practical terms?
25 A. In June 1992, as far as the political level is concerned, and I
1 believe it was Mr. Nikola Koljevic who signed the agreement, it was agreed
2 that the airport should be taken over by UNPROFOR. According to this
3 agreement, Serb forces withdrew from the airport, and the full control and
4 the usage of the airport for humanitarian purposes was taken over by
6 Q. Thank you. You make mention of humanitarian purposes. In
7 relation to this or these agreements, what happened with the issue of
8 civilians and their transit over the airport area and their security? How
9 was this problem treated in the agreements?
10 A. The Sarajevo airport agreement provided for an exclusive use of
11 the airport for the purposes of humanitarian aid, the bringing in of the
12 humanitarian aid, for the use by the UN and official delegations, which
13 means that in the original of the agreement, the Sarajevo airport was not
14 supposed to be used for civilians or any other categories of persons.
15 Q. Thank you. Witness, what can you tell us about a willingness to
16 demilitarise the corps, that is, the Serb side, if there was such
17 willingness indeed during that period of time, which was designed to bring
18 about peace?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the English booth, to
20 demilitarise Sarajevo.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The willingness and efforts made in
22 order to demilitarise Sarajevo were part of the overall attempt to bring
23 about the cessation of hostilities throughout the area. Let me give you a
24 specific example of these efforts made to demilitarise Sarajevo. A
25 delegation of the VRS made an offer during these negotiations, that is,
1 the negotiations of demilitarisation of Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you very much. Did you personally take part in these
4 meetings, that's my first question, and can you tell us when in period
5 these meetings took place?
6 A. As far as your first question, I attended personally most of these
7 meetings. The second question, I'm not quite sure as to what you mean
8 when you say "during that period."
9 Q. The negotiations concerning a possible demilitarisation of
10 Sarajevo, when did they take place?
11 A. If you are referring to the meetings generally speaking, then they
12 were held from the outbreak of the hostilities until the very end of them.
13 Q. Speaking of General Galic, did he attend these meetings? And if
14 yes, what was his attitude towards this problem?
15 A. As far as I know, General Galic did not attend the meetings of the
16 mixed working group which were held at the Sarajevo airport. However,
17 from the discussions that we had at the corps command, I know that
18 everyone, including General Galic, supported the plan of the
19 demilitarisation of Sarajevo which would have -- which was designed to
20 bring about the cessation of hostilities in the area.
21 Q. Thank you. Still on the issue of demilitarisation of Sarajevo and
22 its surroundings, what was the reaction of the opposing side?
23 A. It is my opinion, and judging from what could be seen, the Muslim
24 side did not wish to accept this proposal. I think this was so because by
25 demilitarising Sarajevo, they would have lost their political interest.
1 When it comes to the allies, their allies, the allies of the Muslim side
2 which in final conclusion would lead to their loss of war.
3 Q. Let us expand on this: You told us there was a political
4 interest, namely that the international community would no longer be
5 involved, and that the perception of the Muslim side was such that they
6 thought that in the end, they would lose the war if they accepted the
7 proposal. How did you reach this conclusion?
8 A. Well, before NATO interfered as a side in the conflict, the Serb
9 side had under its control about 70 per cent of the territory of the
10 former Bosnia and Herzegovina. With the loss of Sarajevo as the capital
11 of the then Bosnia and Herzegovina, the war would soon end. And the
12 result of the war would have been that the -- that the majority -- the
13 largest part of the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina would have
14 remained under Serb control.
15 Q. Thank you. You spoke about 70 per cent of the territory of the
16 former Bosnia and Herzegovina. My question is as follows: Before the
17 war, who constituted majority in this area? I mean in terms of population
18 strictly speaking or in terms of land ownership, that is, according to
19 information that could be provided by the land survey office?
20 A. I'm afraid I cannot answer your question because it requires a
21 certain amount of professional expertise.
22 Q. So you cannot tell us anything about it, neither in terms of
23 territory or in terms of inhabitants.
24 A. No, I'm afraid I cannot.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we are
1 discussing political issues, I think this would be a convenient time for
2 viewing the video. However, I have to say before we proceed that the
3 document that we distributed a moment ago and that you have in front of
4 you is merely an excerpt of a larger document. We copied pages 86 to 90,
5 because they concern the video in question. Should you need the entire
6 document, it can be obtained. But we didn't think it necessary to make
7 such a large amount of copies for everyone.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what's going to happen, do I
9 understand you well what we are going to see is an interview?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite correct,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]...?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, not at all.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then are you asking questions about the subject of
15 what is in the interview?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Would it not be the proper way of proceeding first to
18 ask the witness what he knows about it before confronting him with the
19 answers of the interviewed person, which would --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, gladly. But I'm waiting
21 for the answer. But I can, of course, do it, Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Unless the Prosecution would say -- I've got no idea.
24 I haven't read the document. I haven't seen the interview. But in
25 general terms, I would say it's always the proper way of first asking the
1 witness and then confronting him with the views of someone else. But if
2 the Prosecution would not object, knowing what is the interview about and
3 knowing the transcript, then, of course, we might do it a different way.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I make an observation in the
5 absence of the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Indic out
7 of the courtroom.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Defence -- perhaps I could say
9 this in private session.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll then turn into private session.
11 [Private session]
12 Page 18600 – redacted – private session
12 Page 18601 – redacted – private session
12 Page 18602 – redacted – private session
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we're in open session.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Witness, can you please now talk about the problems of shooting,
25 that is, shooting by the Muslim side. First question: Do you know
1 anything about the group called Seva? Do you know anything about that?
2 Yes or no.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know the name of Mr. Edin Garaplija? Does this
5 name mean anything to you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us in a nutshell, what was this group Seva
8 as far as you know?
9 A. According to information I have, the Seva group was a special
10 unit, and they had the purpose of carrying out special tasks. They were
11 mostly armed with sniper weapons.
12 Q. Thank you. What do you mean by "special tasks"?
13 A. Under special tasks, first of all, I mean by eliminating persons,
14 killing persons.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: In my respectful submission, the witness should be
17 asked the source of this information. "Do you know" is as far as we have
18 got in that regard. Thank you.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, do I have to do
20 it now or can I do it at the end of this exercise?
21 JUDGE ORIE: It's for the understanding of the Chamber, it might
22 be better to learn about the basis of the knowledge.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
24 Q. Witness, can you tell us now very briefly where do you have this
25 information? How did you come by it? How did you learn about this?
1 A. First of all, the initial information about the Seva group, I got
2 at meetings of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps during their reporting by
3 organs of intelligence and security matters. And this organ gave the
4 first information about the existence of this group. Further information
5 about the Seva group --
6 Q. I'm going to interrupt you now. When was it that you had the
7 initial information given by the secret services in terms of year and
8 month? Do you know when was that?
9 A. I cannot tell you precisely what month that was, but I can tell
10 you it was the beginning of 1993.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. Other information, other bits of information about the Seva group
13 I received through informal interviews with United Nations members, and
14 most of the information that I received about the Seva group I received
15 after the ending of the war by following the media on the Muslim side.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
18 the question was clarified. May I continue?
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to know one thing more. You told us about
20 informal interviews with UN people, as far as I understood. Could you be
21 more precise?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on a daily basis for various
23 reasons that UN members came to my offices. They were either military
24 observers or people from the sector Sarajevo command or people from
25 UNPROFOR. So there were many talks that we had. They were informal talks
1 and interviews about the situation in Sarajevo and what was happening. It
2 was through these discussions that I came to know about killing of
3 civilians in Sarajevo and what was said in Sarajevo, that this was done,
4 that these people were victims who were killed by the special units called
6 JUDGE ORIE: I have two more questions in this respect. First of
7 all, you said that you know Mr. Garaplija. How did you meet him or how
8 did you get to know him?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say that I knew
10 Mr. Garaplija personally, but that I knew of him.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And how did you --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about Mr. Garaplija from the
13 media after he was arrested and detained in Zenica prison following the
14 Pogorelica affair, that is, after the international community members
15 burst into the camp for training of Muslim extremists.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever see a videotaped interview with
17 Mr. Garaplija?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I read an interview with
19 Mr. Garaplija in Slobodna Bosna magazine.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever read a transcript of an interview
21 with him?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now here, before me, I can see a
23 document when it was handed to me, part of the transcript where
24 Mr. Garaplija was mentioned.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, my question is whether you ever read that
1 transcript before --
2 A. No, no, no.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's the first time you see it now?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First time. First time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Just to continue with the same line of questioning, Witness, the
8 UN officials, did they tell you about the impression that they had in
9 relation to shooting that may have happened and shooting that they were
10 the targets of?
11 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean "an
13 Q. I will rephrase. If you talked with UN representatives about the
14 situation where fire was opened on themselves, that is, on those UN
15 representatives, and if so, what did they tell you about it?
16 A. I remember very well one rather drastic example of a killing of a
17 French soldier. I saw this picture for the first time on the media, on
18 television, and it represented -- what was broadcast was the exact moment
19 when the French soldier was killed and him falling off an engineer's
20 vehicle while he was trying to -- as he was trying to set up some
21 containers in front of Holiday Inn. And the first reaction, when I saw
22 that image on television, was that, again, something has been set up
23 because --
24 Q. I'm going to interrupt you here. I'm sorry. Can you tell us why,
25 first of all -- why do you say "again," and what is your impression based
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 18608 to 18620.
1 on in relation to the setup?
2 A. It was almost impossible for any reasonable person that the
3 videocamera can be switched on and waiting for a bullet to hit a person.
4 Unless this was prepared beforehand and announced in some way. When I
5 said "again" is related to some previous setups, for instance, like that
6 one in Vasa Miskin Street where what existed for a long time among the
7 population of Sarajevo, if in some place you see a camera, you have to run
8 as fast as you can from that location.
9 Q. Very well. What can you tell us about this incident about the
10 firing position and the direction of fire, that is, of the origin of fire?
11 A. I remember that it was during one very short time, the same day
12 when the soldier was killed, two groups arrived in Lukavica in order to
13 conduct an investigation about firing from our side, by our side, towards
14 this soldier. And one group was made up of French officers from the
15 sector command, and the second group was sent by General Rose personally,
16 and this second group was led by his adjutant or his chief of staff,
17 Michael Stanley. From both groups separately -- or with both groups, I
18 went to Grbavica, and it was on their request, because there was a
19 possible direction of fire that there was a red building where the Invest
20 Banka was, that was denoted as the possible source of fire. So it was
21 together with them that I visited all the premises of that red building,
22 and no traces of any firing was found, not only firing but even presence
23 of any persons in that building which in the direction -- looking towards
24 where the incident happened.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you remind us, who was given the blame,
1 the responsibility, by international institutions for this killing of a
2 French soldier?
3 A. Although my understanding after I visited the premises with these
4 two groups, I understood from their report that the Serb side was not to
5 blame for this incident; it was already after a few days that it was
6 officially publicised from the command that it was the Serb side who was
7 to blame for this.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe this
10 is a perfect moment for this cassette to be shown, if I have your leave.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Prosecution submits that still no
13 proper basis has been laid for the showing of the video. The witness has
14 given evidence as to what he knows. Showing the video takes it no
15 further. That is not the way to get in that evidence. The Defence could
16 have taken steps to call the individual who appears in the video. They
17 admit they have not done that.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I just ask
19 one question of the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In relation to this problem.
22 Q. You've talked to us about an interview in the magazine that you
23 read. The photograph of the person, of Mr. Garaplija, was this magazine
24 published in the article? The photograph of the person, of Mr. Garaplija,
25 was this photograph published in the article?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. If you see this person, would it be possible for you
3 to recognise this person on the video?
4 A. I'm not sure.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. President, I
6 think it is useful to know if the witness can recognise this person who
7 might be subpoenaed by your -- or summoned by your Chamber to appear as an
8 important potential witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it is about whether Mr. Garaplija in the
10 interview is the same as the picture of Mr. Garaplija the witness has seen
11 in a newspaper, I think either a still or a silent playing of the video
12 would perfectly serve that purpose, I would say. And I would see no
13 objection against -- for these purposes to play the video.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was just the point that I
15 raised. But I believe that the video without the text doesn't seem to be
16 very informative for your Chamber, and your Chamber must learn what
17 happened --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that's a different matter. That's
19 a different matter. The question of admission of this video and the
20 transcript into evidence is a different one from what you just told us.
21 You just asked the witness whether he would think that he could recognise
22 that person. So if that's the issue, there is a perfect solution for
23 that. But that's a totally different matter.
24 If you think that the Chamber should know the content of the
25 video, then we have I would say a totally different procedural issue, and
1 that is in what way to introduce that video. And --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is
3 another point. It is useful to know if the content of what we hope is a
4 future witness, what he said on this tape, and it is in conformity with
5 what the witness -- this witness was able to read in the press and other
6 sources. Now, not giving us the leave to demonstrate this and to inform
7 you of this, that is refusing the truth. But if you're refusing the
8 truth, that's very well. We can refuse the truth.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That is a conclusion, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that by not
10 accepting in this procedural way the video, that that would be denying the
11 truth, as I told you before, the Chamber will have to consider whether
12 there is an acceptable procedural way to know the content of the video. A
13 different matter is whether this witness should be confronted with it.
14 Those are two totally different matters. I would first like
15 to -- yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can go on to another
17 subject. We can make the observation that the Defence wanted to hear the
18 witness confirm the truthfulness of what he heard in what the Defence
19 tried to demonstrate. But again, this was refused by the Chamber to the
20 Defence, and here the rights of the Defence have been offended.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber will consider the
22 matter. That's the only thing I said. I did not immediately grant leave
23 to confront this witness with the content of the video. That's the only
24 thing that happened until now.
25 I take it that we'll consider it during the next break which would
1 be the most -- and perhaps during the last, unless there's anything the
2 Prosecution would add to the -- to what has been said until now.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I could add something in the
4 absence of the witness, rather than waste time now, at a later point.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll do that just before the break.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Witness, can we now please go back to other elements. First of
9 all, in order to save time, can you tell us, yes or no, whether there were
10 military courts that were established during the war on the side of the
12 A. I don't know that.
13 Q. Thank you. Witness, let us focus on the problem of your relations
14 with UN officials. How many officials did you meet in the course of your
15 activities in the PTT building? Of course, I'm not asking for a specific
16 number; just a general estimate of how many of them did you meet.
17 A. Just to be precise, can you tell me, you meanwhile I was in the
18 PTT building or throughout my duty when I was the liaison officer?
19 Q. No, I mean the entire period.
20 A. Well, I will not err if I say certainly over a thousand.
21 Q. Thank you. Does the name of Mr. Patrick Henneberry mean anything
22 to you? What I mean is, was this person one of your friends? Did you
23 have brotherly exchanges, et cetera?
24 A. I am very sorry. This name vaguely rings a bell, but I cannot
25 remember who this is.
1 Q. I'm going to rephrase my question. Was this one of your close
2 friends with whom you may have gone and taken -- had meals together or had
3 drinks, or you shared some emotions together, something like that? Yes or
5 A. Certainly not, otherwise I would have remembered who this was.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Now can we speak about the strategy, if you
7 know about the general strategy, of the SRK. Do you know if there was a
8 plan on the level of the army and that this plan had the objective of
9 completely eliminating Muslim population of Sarajevo?
10 A. I've never heard of any such plan. I don't think anyone could
11 have devised such a plan because it's simply impossible.
12 Q. Thank you very much. Let us move on to the subject of shelling,
13 the shelling of areas of Sarajevo. My first question: Do you know if
14 the -- there were military targets in the hands of the enemy inside
15 Sarajevo? Any military targets?
16 A. The BH army had its general staff in Sarajevo, the -- yes.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to show a map to
19 the witness, a map that we showed yesterday to another witness. I would
20 like to have it again. I don't know if there are any markings on the map.
21 Before we show it to the witness, Mr. President, in order to save
22 time, my intention is to show the map to the witness and then ask him if
23 he thinks that the information contained therein is accurate. If there's
24 anything to be added or taken off. But it's up to you, Mr. President. I
25 thought this was just suitable for the purpose of saving time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: I recall at least one occasion in the Prosecution
3 case where such a course was vigorously opposed by the Defence. I have
4 not been informed of this proposal. I have no idea what the map is, but
5 even so if I am shown the map, I may allow it. If we could just have
6 access to it and be informed, perhaps on a piece of paper in English, so
7 the witness doesn't hear it, who it is that marked the map.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's a very uncommon way of -- because whether the
9 marking is complete depends on the questions put to the witness who
10 marked. We will --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I withdraw.
12 But there will be a very long list -- we will have a very long list, I'm
13 afraid, in this respect. I am very surprised to hear that the Prosecution
14 is not informed, not aware of this map.
15 Q. Were there any military targets that you were aware of in
16 Sarajevo, Witness?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the time you claimed I said in the
18 beginning that also because the witness would like to leave, that the
19 parties should be very precise in keeping the time. So therefore, use
20 your time as you deem fit. At the same time, I don't know whether this
21 would be the only source, but to ask one witness to correct the work of
22 another witness is not the way --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase,
24 Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, do you know, yes or no, what the situation was involving
3 military targets inside the city of Sarajevo more or less?
4 A. I was not in charge of working on the map. It was not part of my
5 assignment. But I know something in respect of certain military
6 facilities. My knowledge, however, is more focussed to the existence of
7 military units in Sarajevo, not their locations.
8 Q. Thank you very much. What can you tell us about the Ciglane
9 tunnel? Were there any targets there; and if yes, what? What were they?
10 A. In the Ciglane area, there are two tunnels. One is used for
11 regular traffic, and the other is not finished, was not finished. And the
12 Muslim side kept some of its weaponry there, and according to what I know,
13 there were two tanks there for sure, and a mortar mounted on a truck.
14 Q. Thank you. Let me go back to my initial question, that of the
15 shelling of the town. When you have military targets located on the
16 ground floor -- strike that. Let me rephrase the question.
17 In your capacity of a senior officer, are you in the position to
18 know that the use of a particular weapon is legitimate or not in view of
19 the overall circumstances? Yes or no. In principle.
20 A. I'm afraid I don't understand your question.
21 Q. Let me rephrase it. In your capacity of a military officer, are
22 you able to tell in light of the circumstances whether the use of a
23 particular weapon is legitimate or not, generally speaking?
24 A. Well, I think I am able to reach a conclusion to that effect.
25 Q. Thank you. When we have military targets located on ground floor
1 or on the first floor --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: There is no basis established with this witness, no
4 sufficient basis, for him to offer such opinions. A liaison officer who
5 has himself said he was outside the command and control in relation to
6 what one might call the fighting forces, with a background in training in
7 intelligence, languages, is stretching it, if I could use the vernacular,
8 too far. I might add that we have heard evidence, I think, from a number
9 of witnesses who had some better basis of qualification.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the other hand, it has been asked to many
11 witnesses, even those who might not have been experts in the law of
12 warfare. I'll allow you to put the question, and the Chamber will --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- Later weigh the evidence presented.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, when you have military targets on ground floor or on
17 first floor in a building that you cannot see or hit with direct fire and
18 you want to target it, you want to hit it, what is the type of weapon that
19 you would use in order to open fire on this type of target?
20 A. If the targeting is legitimate, then I would use artillery weapons
21 for indirect fire.
22 Q. Thank you. What weapons precisely do you have in mind when you
23 say "indirect fire" weapons?
24 A. I am referring to the artillery weapons with a specified incoming
1 Q. Can you tell us the names of any such artillery pieces?
2 A. All types of artillery pieces that have this type of -- or that
3 use this type of incoming trajectory.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Am I right in assuming that you are
5 referring to mortars or Howitzers when they are used from this position
6 and in this position?
7 A. Yes, both of them.
8 Q. Thank you very much. Tell us, please, brigade commanders, did
9 they have artillery pieces? Did they have them at their disposal, if you
11 A. In terms of establishment, every brigade has an artillery group, a
12 brigade artillery group. And brigades differ in this respect, depending
13 on how strong they were in terms of troops and equipment.
14 Q. Thank you. As far as firing itself is concerned, who must issue
15 an order? And I'm speaking of these artillery pieces. Who is in charge
16 of issuing such an order to open fire?
17 A. If we are still talking about a brigade, the use of a brigade
18 artillery group is within the province of the brigade commander.
19 Q. Thank you. Would such an order leave any traces?
20 A. Well, it needn't be in written form, but any activity by a
21 brigade, as I have already indicated, must be reported on.
22 Q. Thank you. But was your answer yes or no? Would such an order
23 leave any traces of its existence? Yes or no.
24 A. There would be traces, so to speak, in a report that is submitted
1 Q. Thank you. If such an order is issued in terms of brigade
2 artillery, would it leave any paper trail later on?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Let us move -- actually, let us go back to
5 the issue of shelling of military targets inside the town using indirect
6 fire artillery pieces. What can you tell us about the margin of error in
7 the use of such artillery pieces, if you know? Errors in terms of
9 A. In the case of artillery weapons, appropriate observing and
10 correction of fire is always done before opening fire. However, I must
11 say that it is never very precise, and very rarely does the first shell
12 hit the target, which tells you clearly how frequent such errors are, not
13 only that they are possible.
14 Q. Thank you very much. Could you now tell us something about the
15 issue of mixed commissions. We have heard a number of things concerning
16 these commissions, but what can you tell us about the willingness of the
17 Serb side to establish such joint or mixed commissions and how they
19 A. In order to clarify the terminology, let me just reiterate that at
20 the lower level, at the level of lower staffs, there were mixed working
21 groups. However, when it comes to the corps level, we had mixed
22 commissions. These mix commissioned discussed at their meetings the
23 issues with the purpose of putting an end to hostilities and finding a
24 peaceful solution to the conflict.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to
2 be shown an exhibit, 453, please. I think we have some handwritten
3 remarks on this exhibit.
4 Q. Witness, would you please focus on item 3 (c). That is, the last
5 portion of the first page in the Serbian language. Tell us when you have
6 looked at it, and also please pay attention to the signature.
7 Have you read it, the relevant portion?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. Thank you. First question: Do you recognise the form of this
11 A. Yes, I do. It's a regular report.
12 Q. Thank you. What about the signature? Are you able to identify
13 it? Have you already seen this handwritten signature?
14 A. I'm afraid I cannot identify the person who signed the document
15 because the word "Za" meaning "for" precedes the name. So somebody else
16 signed the document for Dragomir Milosevic. Probably the duty operative
18 Q. Was that customary?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Speaking of section (c), that is item 3 (c), can you just confirm
21 the contents of this part of the document.
22 A. No, not on the basis of this section alone. I cannot remember the
23 first part, that is, the meeting which was convened at the airport. I
24 don't recall this particular meeting. However, the remaining items, yes,
25 I can confirm them. I'm aware of them.
1 Q. Thank you. Since we're talking about commissions, do you know,
2 what does the name of Markale make you think of? Does it ring a bell? I
3 suppose it does. No, no, no, it has got nothing to do with the document,
4 Witness. It's a general question. Does it sound familiar, the name of
6 A. It does.
7 Q. Thank you. In a nutshell, if you can just briefly tell us what it
9 A. You mean Markale?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. As a resident of Sarajevo, I am aware of the Markale market, that
12 is, I have been aware of this market ever since I was a little child. It
13 is the largest market inside the town of Sarajevo. From the war, however,
14 it is the name of the location where one of the greatest tragedies
15 occurred during the war.
16 Q. Thank you. We will address the issue of the commission and the
17 incident in question. You have the document to your right. And please,
18 tell us, first of all, did you ever receive any protest concerning item
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you very much. Let us now move on to the issue of
22 commissions, in particular, the commissions that dealt with the issue of
23 shelling. Do you know if the Serb side wanted or showed willingness to
24 establish a joint or mixed commissions in order to establish what had
25 happened in particular incidents?
1 A. I know that at the corps command, there was readiness to act in
2 case of even a smallest incident in order to have the incident
3 investigated with the representatives of UNPROFOR.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Was that the case of the Markale market as
6 A. The Markale market incident received a much stronger response, of
7 course. And I remember that within a brief period of time, the main staff
8 issued an order to establish a mixed commission who would investigate the
9 incident at the very site. And I think that Colonel Lugonja and
10 Colonel Cvetkovic, who was an artillery man, were appointed members of
11 this commission.
12 Q. Do you know whether the military hierarchy reacted, intervened,
13 immediately in order to verify at the level of the brigade, in terms of
14 territory, if fire had indeed been opened?
15 A. I know that as part of this order which was issued by the main
16 staff, it was directed that every single barrel should be inspected in
17 order to establish where the fire had been opened from our positions.
18 Whether I say every single barrel, I don't mean only the inspection of the
19 relevant artillery pieces, but also to interview the crews manning these
20 artillery pieces.
21 Q. According to what you know, was that indeed done?
22 A. Well, I don't see who could have refused such an order.
23 Q. So I take your answer to mean yes.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. President, when do you intend to have a break?
1 MR. IERACE: I object --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think this question
3 about the break should entail an objection.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it was a leading question and one
6 which purported to be based on the previous question but it was not. The
7 witness made a presumption that the order had been complied with. Thank
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. IERACE: I refer, of course, to the question "so I take your
11 answer to mean yes."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, that's at least an interpretation of the
13 answer. But the examination is interrupted anyhow.
14 I'd first like to ask the witness to be escorted out of the
15 courtroom so that we can deal with the matters remaining for the next
16 three minutes.
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I have just had a glance on the document. And
18 Mr. Ierace, it appears that one of the subjects of the interview of this
19 third party relates closely to an incident described by the witness during
20 his testimony. Starting from that point of view, I'd like to hear briefly
21 from the parties, and perhaps first hear your objection, if there would be
22 any remaining objection. And then hear from the Defence, but just as
23 briefly as possible, what we -- not only on whether you object or not, but
24 also on what we preferably should do under these circumstances.
25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, there is no
1 proper basis established for this interview to become part of the
2 evidence, which is clearly the intention of the Defence. It would seem
3 there is no comment that could be made by the witness, none is apparent at
4 this stage. It is simply led, in effect, as corroboration of the hearsay
5 he has already given. A relevant factor is that according to the witness,
6 the incident sparked an investigation by General Rose. We know the
7 Defence has had this tape in its possession since before General Rose gave
8 evidence, they have had it in their possession since December 2001.
9 No questions pertaining to the investigation were put to him. The
10 Defence has admitted that it has made no attempt to have the alleged
11 confessor brought before the Court. There is simply no basis upon which
12 this video can be admitted into evidence. It certainly sounds very
13 interesting, but the way to do it is to call the person who is allegedly
14 giving this information. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the historical
17 background shows us that it is your [No Interpretation].
18 JUDGE ORIE: I was about to change to the French channel. I
19 missed part of what you said, at least -- perhaps because you were talking
20 at such a low voice that the interpreters could not hear you. I'm not
21 aware of that.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I said simply historically,
23 the responsibility shall be yours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'd like to have an answer on the
25 procedural issue raised by Mr. -- And -- by Mr. Ierace. No. Let me be
1 quite clear: The way the Chamber is handling this problem, and as I
2 indicated -- I indicated that before, that it might be of importance for
3 the Chamber to see this evidence and to hear the evidence this witness
4 could add to what he has told us already about this incident. At the same
5 time, the Chamber should keep the procedural standards such that both
6 parties will have an opportunity to present their case properly. But just
7 referring to whether history will tell you whether the Chamber is right in
8 a decision it has not taken yet, I'm seeking argument to be exchanged so
9 that the Chamber can give a proper decision where it has showed clearly
10 that the information contained in this evidence might be of importance.
11 So therefore, I invite you again to respond to what Mr. Ierace
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Ierace has -- is right,
14 perfectly right, when he says and only when he says that this is certainly
15 interesting. Second, I don't see any link with Mr. Rose. We can ask
16 questions to whomever we want or like, and it is impossible to ask
17 questions in respect of everything in cases of individual witnesses.
18 Third, this witness, and you indicated justly so, that this witness was
19 talking about a significant incident in terms of manipulations. And it is
20 the position of the Defence that we have to say -- hold on a second, we
21 have to be very cautious, very prudent when it comes to the manipulations.
22 And here, we have the possibility of listening to the experience of a
23 person who was a BH army sniper who knew about the activities of
24 these -- this group. And I think it is imperative that we deal here more
25 with the substance than with the form. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please also respond to the suggestion
2 Mr. Ierace, that the best way of dealing with the matter would be to call
3 the witness who gave the interview.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
5 this is not the best way. This is an additional way, and very
6 interesting. Why is that? Because according to what you would be able to
7 see, Mr. President, you would be in a position perhaps to ask certain
8 questions of the witness, although you probably would not be able to do it
9 seeing the way that things are progressing now if we have to wait for a
10 possible summoning of the last witness mentioned, this person,
11 Mr. Garaplija. Although it is certain as far as we are concerned that he
12 will not come bearing in mind what he might testify.
13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I have a question
14 for Mr. Ierace.
15 Mr. Ierace, your objection goes to procedural matters or to the
16 substance of the tape?
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President -- Your Honour, I haven't had an
18 opportunity yet to read the transcript. I've glanced at it. I would be
19 grateful for that opportunity before I responded in terms of the
20 substance. For example, I wish to establish in my own mind whether this
21 is hearsay, and if so whether it is double hearsay, and whether this is
22 the person who claims to have shot the French soldier. I think that's
23 important as to whether is material should go in. So it's both. And I
24 might add in relation to the procedure this does not seem to be one of
25 those cases where when General Rose gave his evidence the Defence could
1 not have known about this investigation. It would seem that surely the
2 accused would have known, the accused was here, and he could have told the
3 Defence about this incident. Thank you.
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: As far as I understand, this tape was
5 disclosed by the Prosecution as exculpatory evidence. Is it true?
6 MR. IERACE: We disclose evidence under two relevant categories in
7 relation to this type of material: Evidence which may be exculpatory, and
8 because it is a reciprocal disclosure trial, evidence which may be of
9 assistance to the Defence in presenting their Defence. And on that basis,
10 we disclosed the material. Yes.
11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So this tape could be exculpatory?
12 MR. IERACE: The tape in itself may be, because it's disclosed
13 under those conditions. But more importantly, it may enable the Defence
14 to make further inquiries so they could then be in a position to call
15 first-hand evidence, perhaps.
16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will consider the matter during the
18 break. We'll adjourn until 1.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the matter of the video
22 and the transcript. First of all, the Chamber expresses that it would
23 have been the proper way of introducing this evidence by calling the
24 relevant witnesses, not necessarily Mr. Garaplija, but perhaps even
25 Mr. Herenda [phoen] or Mr. Bozic or whoever is mentioned in there. That
1 certainly would have assisted the Chamber in better appreciating such
2 evidence. By not doing this or not taking any initiative, timely, in
3 order to achieve this, the Defence has taken a considerable risk that
4 these witnesses could not be heard any more, whereas they might have been
5 of importance for the presentation of the Defence case. And the Chamber
6 has also considered that the Defence should give some thought on whether
7 they would try to still call these witnesses or one of these witnesses in
8 order to achieve the best that can be achieved in this respect.
9 In the present situation, the Chamber is very much concerned to
10 find out exactly what is the personal knowledge of the present witness,
11 and therefore the Chamber will put a few questions to the witness before
12 it will allow the Defence to play the video and to put questions to the
13 witness. There is not much time left, then, for the Defence, if my time
14 keeping is correct.
15 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
16 Mr. Indic, I would like to ask you some further questions in
17 respect of the incident in which a French soldier died. Could you tell us
18 from whom you first learned about the incident.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My first information in relation to
20 the incident came from the TV. It was the recording that I saw on TV.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You just told us that the presence of the TV was
22 raising some suspicion. Did the television show the French soldier first
23 alive and then being shot? Where did the report start? At what moment?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the recording, you can see a
25 vehicle. It's a vehicle, a forklift. It was supposed to lift the
1 containers, and there was a soldier who was in the bulletproof jacket and
2 a helmet. He was driving this vehicle by himself. Then at the next
3 moment you saw a French soldier falling off the vehicle on the right-hand
4 side. He was going in the direction of Grbavica. Behind him was the
5 Holiday Inn hotel. And he fell to the right in the direction of the
6 museum. So you can see the moment the soldier was shot, and you can see
7 his activity prior to him being shot.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that broadcast the same day the event
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It was publicly broadcasted?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: When did you then get further information about the
14 incident, apart from what you saw on television?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that, what followed was an
16 investigation, as I said, conducted by two teams of United Nations. The
17 French team and the team of General Rose.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My conclusion following my visit
20 with these two teams, my conclusion was that they were convinced that the
21 incident was not caused by the Serb side. But I believe it was already
22 two days later that the main staff the Army of Republika Srpska was
23 informed and blamed, saying that the incident was caused by the Serb side.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that your forces were blamed
25 for having perpetrated this killing, whereas no signs had been found
1 during your investigation initiated by General Rose that the shot would
2 have come from your side.
3 Do you know who perpetrated this action?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have told you, by reading the
5 interview in the Slobodna Bosna magazine, I found out that the -- this was
6 done by members of the Seva unit.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you have any other source that would
8 confirm that these individuals were responsible for this action?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So to make it sure, your knowledge about how the
11 event happened you learned that from television. Your knowledge as to
12 your forces not being responsible you learned from the investigation that
13 was initiated by General Rose. And you took an active part in that. And
14 what you know about who did perpetrate, it's exclusively on the basis of
15 the newspaper interview that you obtained knowledge about that.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the video may be shown. You may put
18 questions to the witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Of course, within the limit
19 of the answers the witness has just given.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
21 Mr. President. I thank the booth, particularly the English booth, if they
22 can interpret what is heard on the video because the tape is both in
23 Serbian and in English. However, occasionally of very poor quality in
24 terms of audio.
25 Thank you. We can show the video. Thank you, Mr. President.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will give the number of the
3 exhibit. For the transcript, 1841.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before we play it --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. Could we stop playing the video,
7 MR. IERACE: Again, for the record, I'm told that this was not on
8 the exhibit list. In the circumstances, I don't oppose it being added,
9 although no leave was sought. And it seems that the entire video is to be
10 played, not the three excerpts which were provided to the Prosecution by
11 the Defence last week. I simply state that for the record, thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this is not at all the
14 entire video. It's just the excerpt which is of interest for us --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I thought that Mr. Ierace said that you should play
16 the entire video if you want to rely on these parts. Is that correct,
17 Mr. Ierace?
18 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, we were given three segments
19 approximately 2 minutes each. I gather that instead of playing three
20 segments, the Defence now proposes to play one large segment. I don't
21 know if that goes beyond the three segments that we were given. Perhaps
22 that could be clarified. Thank you.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I said
24 this is just an excerpt which interests us. It's only 2 minutes long.
25 And it is only this that we are interested in. It is true that the
1 Prosecution also received other excerpts, but we are not asking for the
2 viewing of those. It's just this excerpt, which is given to the booth and
3 to the Prosecution.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... With the
5 translation, or do we hear English on --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The interpretation booths, I
7 believe, do have the copies of the transcript since yesterday.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please, could the video be restarted.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel indicate which page this
11 begins at.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the English booth, we will
13 start from page 87 of the transcript.
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The next sniping activity I would
16 describe as firing by a soldier. The soldier was a member of the United
17 Nations forces. I think he was of French origin. And the idea behind the
18 action was --
19 SPEAKER: The Serbian side or --
20 SPEAKER: The soldier was hit from across, from across the way
21 opposite, opposite the Holiday Inn not far from the building of the
22 executive council.
23 SPEAKER: From across the way opposite the Holiday Inn hotel.
24 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] Near the building of the executive
1 SPEAKER: Executive council.
2 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] On an empty space on the crossroads,
3 there is the building of the museum.
4 SPEAKER: Museum.
5 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] While the street.
6 SPEAKER: While the street.
7 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] The street leads to the valley of
8 Miljacka River to Grbavica.
9 SPEAKER: Leads to the valley of the Miljacka River to Grbavica.
10 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] And Grbavica was controlled by Serb
12 SPEAKER: And Grbavica was controlled by Serb forces.
13 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] However, Herenda [phoen] And Bozic.
14 SPEAKER: Herenda And Bozic.
15 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] I think it was Dragan Bozic, and with a
16 third person, I cannot remember his name, from Seva.
17 SPEAKER: I cannot remember his name.
18 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] He climbed onto the building of the
19 Executive Council.
20 SPEAKER: Building of the Executive Council.
21 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] Which was located in the direction I
23 SPEAKER: Located in the direction I described.
24 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] And from there he used a sniper rifle.
25 SPEAKER: From there he used a sniper rifle.
1 SPEAKER: [Interpretation] To shoot the soldier.
2 SPEAKER: To shoot the soldier."
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Witness, very briefly now, do you have knowledge of other
5 incidents that would have been comparable to the one that we just heard
6 about on this tape? Yes or no.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us very briefly which ones?
9 A. The first killing of the UN soldier in Sarajevo area occurred near
10 the Sarajevo airport. It was in the southern side that there is an access
11 road towards the Sarajevo airport from a place called Kotorac. Muslim
12 soldiers opened fire from the area of Butmir. And on that occasion, two
13 French soldiers were killed. The misuse of these killings, I can see in
14 the fact that I don't know for what reasons, the monument to these two
15 soldiers was set up, was erected, on the Serb side.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
17 A. Through the discussions with UN members --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. The witness has again been
20 invited with no qualification as to how he knows of these things to tell
21 us of what he's aware. And that is an improper way, in my respectful
22 submission, for evidence to be elicited in chief.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, when you are responding to
24 questions of Mr. Piletta-Zanin concerning this second incident, same
25 questions: How did you learn about them? How did you learn about this
1 second incident?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned it from members of the
3 French battalion who were stationed at the airport.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did they ever identify who fired at the soldier
5 that was, if I understand you well, killed?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was ascertained, and it was known
7 from the very beginning because the French had one armoured vehicle
8 located at the entrance to the airport, which was an observation point.
9 It was from the very beginning, there was no dilemma, that the fire was
10 opened from Butmir, from the area under the control of the Muslim forces.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you would say that the fire came from the
12 BiH-controlled area. Was it ever identified who fired?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the confusion you create is that
15 you're referring to an incident of which from different sources some at
16 first unknown to the witness, others only known by watching television,
17 and a third category is where other people say who performed that without
18 any knowledge of the witness. If you refer to similar incidents, it's
19 highly confusing, and it's suggestive. And what we would like to know is
20 what the witness knows rather than what is unclearly suggested to him and
21 where we get whatever response to such suggestions.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 Q. Witness, presumably you know this, and you can tell us, how do you
25 know this? Would you please be able to tell us what do you know, if you
1 know, about the Seva group that we spoke of earlier?
2 A. In my testimony so far, I told you what I know about this group.
3 It's a special unit which is supposed to do special tasks. And special
4 tasks, first of all, what I mean is elimination of persons, killing of
6 Q. Very well. You have spoken about elimination. According to your
7 knowledge and as far as you know, was there a strategy that was used?
8 What I mean is was there a frequency of action like the one that we saw
9 described on the screen?
10 A. I cannot say decisively that this was part of the strategy of the
11 other side. But I do know that there was much talk of operations of this
12 unit. That was directed against its own population.
13 Q. The person that we saw earlier, that is, Mr. Garaplija, do you
14 know a person who knows this person?
15 A. I believe that the whole leadership would know it, of the AID
16 would know it, the Agency for Information and Documentation.
17 Q. Thank you very much. A couple of questions before finishing. You
18 have spoken to us about the airport. I'm going to change the subject.
19 I'd like to know, what can you tell about the corridors?
20 A. Could you please be more precise in your question. Are you
21 referring to the blue roads, the humanitarian corridors.
22 Q. Were there any open corridors, corridors that would have been
23 opened for civilians, if so, when and how often they were opened and so
25 A. As a result of one of the agreements which was designed to
1 facilitate life for the residents of Sarajevo, a number of so-called blue
2 roads were opened. They went across the Sarajevo airport and further on,
3 Dobrinja, Butmir, Lukavica, and Ilidza, via the Brotherhood and Unity
4 Bridge on the axis Grbavica, part of the Sarajevo and for a brief period
5 of time, there was -- via Vogosca, Visoko, and further on towards central
6 Bosnia. Those blue roads in principle functioned daily within the limited
7 period of time in the morning and in the afternoon. There were points,
8 crossing points from one territory to the other which were manned by the
9 so-called controllers whose tasks was not to control the individuals but
10 to see to it that the humanitarian convoys did not carry any weapons and
11 military equipment.
12 Q. Thank you. General Galic, did he take part in the establishment
13 of these corridors? We are approaching the end of your testimony. And
14 second, what can you tell us, provided that you know something, about the
15 personality of General Galic when it comes to these humanitarian issues?
16 A. As for the immediate participation of the corps commander in the
17 implementation of the blue roads project, I can say that his word was the
18 final one because he issued orders to the brigades whose areas of
19 responsibility were near the access of the blue records in order to ensure
20 an unhindered functioning of these communication lines. As for the -- for
21 your second question, that is, the attitude of General Galic with respect
22 to the humanitarian issues, I can say briefly that it was always my
23 impression of General Galic as a professional soldier, professional in
24 terms of everything that is understood by a military vocation which also
25 involves such an attitude towards humanitarian issue which is -- which was
1 always positive as far as General Galic is concerned. And he always had a
2 very clear and decisive attitude when it comes to combat activity.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
4 This concludes my examination of the witness, Mr. President. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to begin the
6 cross-examination of the witness?
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, can I say something in that regard in
8 the absence of the witness and in private session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is necessary to do it right at this moment?
10 Yes, then I would like to ask the usher to escort the witness out
11 of the courtroom and turn into private session.
12 [Private session]
12 Page 18651 – redacted – private session
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Indic, we are informed that for certain reasons,
6 you'd like to go back to where you come from not after the weekend but
7 before the weekend. Could you give us some indication on what exactly is
8 of importance for you to go back? We're trying to manage, but we'll have
9 to see whether we are able to do so. I understood that there was
10 something on Sunday you'd like to attend.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the plane -- the
12 Banja Luka/Belgrade plane leaves on Sunday, and I have to be at work on
13 Monday. My arrival here was planned for the 18th. The plan had already
14 had been made in advance. And one could not assume that I would have to
15 stay this long, specifically if Your Honour wishes to know what it is all
16 about, I have to be present at the yearly analysis of the work that has
17 been done in my company. And I am not the only person participating in
19 JUDGE ORIE: And that starts on Monday?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's see whether we can use the time in such a
22 way -- we try to have you back in time.
23 Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if it's of any use, I am
1 available this afternoon and on Saturday. I don't have any commitments,
2 any other commitments here.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And your flight is on Sunday, I do understand?
4 We could see what could be done either today or tomorrow. We could
5 investigate that. I don't know whether there's any courtroom available or
6 any supporting staff available. But let's just start now.
7 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:
10 Q. Mr. Indic, as I understand the evidence that you have given us so
11 far, especially in terms of your liaison duties, you were a conduit for
12 information passing from the army of which you were a member to other
13 parties, including the UN. Is that correct? Would you agree with that
15 A. Yes, including also the information coming from them and addressed
16 to my army.
17 Q. Yes. Apart from those duties, you also acted as an interpreter
18 from time to time for various senior officers in the Sarajevo Romanija
19 Corps and, indeed, in the VRS. Is that correct?
20 A. I don't think I can agree with your description of them being
21 senior officers. I always helped with interpretation regardless of the
22 level involved.
23 Q. You have also told us that, as I understand it, you had absolutely
24 no power to make decisions, that your work obligations were confined to
25 simply liaison, as I have described it, and interpretation. Is that
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. I
3 object as to the expression "as I have described it" in view of the
4 precision provided by the witness. I think the Prosecution cannot
5 continue this line of questioning because the issue has been clarified and
6 corrected by the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I don't know whether it's my recollection
8 that the witness had in no respect any power for decisions. But could you
9 please try to find out.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in order to --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I withdraw. I withdraw the
12 objection in order to save time.
13 MR. IERACE:
14 Q. Do you recall yesterday that you told us that you did not have the
15 power to make decisions in relation to the passage of humanitarian convoys
16 or in relation to protests, that these matters were simply passed through
17 you to others for decisions to be made? Is that correct?
18 A. We clarified that previously, I did not have any authorisation to
19 reach decisions on my own concerning the movement of humanitarian convoys.
20 Q. And apart from that, you did not have any power to make decisions
21 in relation to protests, did you? You simply passed them on. Correct?
22 A. Not a single protest was intended and sent out to the group for
23 cooperation with UNPROFOR as a final addressee. The group in question did
24 not have authority to make any decisions regarding these protests. They
25 were supposed to forward these protests to their original addressees.
1 Q. Yes. And you were a member of that group, you tell us, the
2 liaison group. Is that so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, what rank were you in February of 1992?
5 A. In February of 1992, I held the rank of Captain First Class.
6 Q. When were you promoted after that position, after that rank? When
7 were you next promoted?
8 A. The first next rank that I had, that of a major, I got in July
9 1992 as a regular promotion because I had passed the examination, the
10 relevant examination to become a major previously that year.
11 Q. When was the next promotion after July of 1992?
12 A. I received the next promotion in 1995. I was promoted to the rank
13 of Lieutenant-Colonel, which was a temporary promotion. I had been given
14 that promotion six months earlier than normal, than regular promotion.
15 Q. All right. When in 1995 were you promoted?
16 A. I was promoted by virtue of a general staff decision adopted in
17 January 1995. However, in order to avoid confusion, we, as former
18 officers of the JNA, we were also members of the 30th Human Resources
19 Centre. And the order coming from that centre came sometime in July that
20 same year.
21 Q. I'm sorry. Did you say that you were promoted by virtue of a
22 general staff decision adopted in January of 1995? Is that what you said?
23 A. Yes.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, page 79, line 9, not
25 temporary promotion but an early promotion.
1 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that.
2 Q. Now, did your duties differ at all between August of 1994 and
3 January of 1995 from what they were before August of 1994?
4 A. This period falls outside the relevant times. The question refers
5 to the period between August 1994 and January 1995. I don't know whether
6 I have to answer the question.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the
8 witness has raised this issue, let me take the opportunity to object. We
9 formally object because the question falls outside the scope of the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Objection is denied. So you may answer the question,
12 but you may do that tomorrow because it's a quarter to 2.00 now, and we
13 have to stop. So tomorrow, you may tell us whether your duties changed in
14 August 1994 from what they were before up until January 1995.
15 The parties should be prepared for any additional hearing. We'll
16 first of course have to investigate whether it will be possible to hear
17 for more time either today or tomorrow. They should keep themselves
18 available for any message from the registry. If there's any reason why
19 the parties could not appear this afternoon or tomorrow, I'd like to hear
20 about it. And similarly, I'd like hear from General Galic if there would
21 be any objection apart from the strain it will put on your health.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, there is.
23 Preceding what you said at the very beginning of this hearing, it is our
24 mission now to address a number of issues to the Canadian authorities in
25 respect of a witness that you know about --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's not do this in the presence
2 of the witness. Mr. Usher, could I first ask you to escort the witness
3 out of the courtroom.
4 Would you please keep yourself available today and tomorrow also
5 outside the hours indicated to you. I do understand that you understand
6 my English. Yes.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that you still have work to be
9 done on the issue we discussed before.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's not just a
11 little work. The Canadian administration want us to give them a very
12 detailed list of questions --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I did understand that you were
14 willing to provide this list today, so that means that it will certainly
15 take you a couple of hours because -- therefore, some time, but now I'm
16 taking into consideration two days might still be left. And if we have to
17 prioritise, we'll have to see how to do it. But I am aware, and you have
18 drawn my attention to the fact, that you need considerable time to prepare
19 a response for the Canadian authorities.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Second, my flight tomorrow is
21 at 4.00 or 4.30. And I simply have to be in Geneva because of a meeting
22 tomorrow night. So the best solution for me would be if the Prosecution
23 could make an effort to speed up the examination and to focus directly on
24 the essential --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I am trying to solve a problem,
1 and I am not seeking the advice of the parties for what the other party
2 should do to solve the problem.
3 Both parties should make themselves available for today and
4 tomorrow. We'll try to take into account the problems you have. The
5 Defence team exists of two persons. They might consider to split up some
6 of the work. And we'll consider the matter. First, practical thing I
7 have to do, to see whether there's any courtroom available.
8 We will adjourn until tomorrow unless the parties receive a
9 message that we would spend some time this afternoon as well.
10 --- Recess taken at 1.51 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 3.16 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case,
13 because it's not clear whether this is a continuation of this morning's
14 session or a new session.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
16 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Mr. Ierace, are you ready to continue the cross-examination?
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Before we
21 start, I'd like to thank you for finding a courtroom. I wanted to say
22 that there were a few things exchanged in English, and this exchange
23 occurred in the presence of the witness who understands English perfectly
24 well. The Prosecution is aware of this, and I am surprised to see that
25 the Prosecution allowed it to express itself like this. Because we've
1 spoken about General Galic and about speaking in Serb to him. I don't
2 think the Prosecution should speak in English in front of the witness if
3 the witness can understand English.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please respond as briefly as possible, I'm not very
5 much inclined to spend more time on procedural issues that are not of such
6 an urgent character that they could not be dealt with after the witness
7 has been examined.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, nothing was said of any significance
9 or importance to the witness between myself and other members of the legal
10 team. I'm surprised to hear the complaint. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is one -- I think the parties should
12 refrain from loudly discussing whatever in the presence of a witness.
13 That's number 1. There is at least a difference, then, if
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is there that he understands some English, but parties
15 should refrain from doing it. Otherwise, we will have to ask the witness
16 next time to stay out of the courtroom, and that takes time as well.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. IERACE:
19 Q. Before the break, Mr. Indic, I asked you generally whether your
20 duties between August 1994 and January 1995 differed from those you
21 carried out before August 1994. What is the answer to that question?
22 A. There were no differences.
23 Q. Did you act as an interpreter in languages other than English?
24 A. No, as I don't know any other foreign languages. I only know
25 English as a foreign language.
1 Q. How many officer in the barracks building at Lukavica in the
2 relevant period other than you, spoke English? That is, officers based in
3 those barracks?
4 A. I don't know how many of them in the barracks spoke English, but I
5 do know how many in my group for cooperating with UNPROFOR spoke English.
6 It was myself and Mr. Luledzija.
7 Q. Was he based in the PTT building or in the Lukavica headquarters
8 with you?
9 A. In both places.
10 Q. At different times. Is that correct?
11 A. At different times, naturally.
12 Q. All right. Him aside, how many other officers based in the
13 Lukavica headquarters other than you from the time that you moved to the
14 Lukavica headquarters until August 1994 spoke English well?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President. The
16 question is not precise. I would be -- I would appreciate it if the
17 witness could leave. This has to do with the precision that is necessary
18 for the question. We know that there were other officers in Lukavica than
19 those that Mr. Ierace is thinking of. Perhaps he could clarify his
20 question because there were various officers there.
21 MR. IERACE: I would have thought that was obvious,
22 Mr. President. I'm happy to rephrase it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it took you five lines for
24 something that would have needed half a line, one line, not more than one
25 and a half line. We have now been confronted with these time constraints
1 again and again. I urge the parties not to interfere unnecessarily.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Lest there be any doubt, Mr. Indic, I mean talking about officers
4 and other members of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps who were based in those
6 A. I don't know how many officers in the Lukavica command spoke a
7 foreign language.
8 Q. Sir, did you know anyone who spoke English whilst you were
9 stationed at Lukavica headquarters up until August of 1994? And I mean
10 apart from other members of your liaison group.
11 A. I assume that some people studied foreign languages in the course
12 of their education, but I didn't speak to anyone from the command in the
13 English language. So it's not possible for me to answer that question.
14 Q. To your knowledge, did you know anyone, apart from yourself, in
15 the SRK who spoke English, leaving assumptions aside?
16 A. For a certain period of time, when the humanitarian corridors by
17 the Sarajevo airport were opened, part of the group for securing air
18 flights was formed. Two air officers, liaison air officers were made
19 responsible for this. Major Branko Milosevic who spoke English, and
20 Sunka, Slobodan, a warrant officer. As far as I know, he did not speak
22 Q. Were they both members of your liaison group?
23 A. They weren't members of the liaison group that I belonged to.
24 They were air force officers responsible for liaising, and they were
25 connected to the chief of the air force department in the main staff.
1 Q. How long was Branko Milosevic at the Lukavica headquarters for?
2 What period of time?
3 A. Branko Milosevic wasn't in the command in Lukavica. As an air
4 force officer for liaising, he was at the Sarajevo airport.
5 Q. Sorry. I'll repeat the question. I'm asking you officers who
6 were based at the Lukavica headquarters. Do you understand that?
7 A. You asked how many officers from Lukavica command spoke a foreign
9 Q. No, I asked you do you know -- did you know any officers at the
10 headquarters when you were there who spoke English. Mr. Indic, it's a
11 very simple question. Yes or no?
12 A. I'll repeat this: I don't know who spoke English in the Lukavica
14 Q. Did the liaison officers in the PTT when it was started up again
15 have to speak English, that is, the Bosnian Serb liaison officers?
16 A. The people whose duties it was to liaise in the PTT building did
17 speak English, but these people were not professional officers.
18 Q. All right. Because we don't have much time, a yes would have
19 sufficed as an answer to that question, if you follow me.
20 Now, your boss in 1992 and early 1993, was your immediate boss
21 Colonel Zarkovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did he speak English?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did he leave in May 1993 and go to the Ministry of Defence?
1 A. I don't know in which month, but in 1993, he did go to the
2 Ministry of Defence.
3 Q. Who replaced him?
4 A. I was assigned to represent him as chief of the group.
5 Q. For what period of time did that last?
6 A. It lasted until he returned to the same duties from the Ministry
7 of Defence. I don't remember when that was exactly.
8 Q. What year was it?
9 A. I can't remember.
10 Q. It was after August of 1994, wasn't it?
11 A. I can't remember.
12 Q. Does that mean that in his absence, the other members of your
13 liaison group reported to you and that you gave them directions?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You told us a few times during your evidence in chief that you
16 were one of a group, but it seems that for some indeterminate period from
17 mid-1993 onwards, you were more equal than them. Is that correct?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I be
19 provided with the exact quote.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that Mr. Ierace is referring to any
21 statement. In the evidence in chief that he belonged to a group... If
22 you would have a source, Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE: Not at the moment, without LiveNote, Mr. President.
24 I'll see if we can struggle through, perhaps come back to that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it contested that the witness
1 testified several times that he was part of a group?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what surprises
3 me is that --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you what surprises you. I'm asking
5 you whether it is contested that the witness said several times that he
6 belonged and that he functioned in a group.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What then would you like to have the source for?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's what I wanted to tell you
10 a minute ago so as not to waste time. As the expression, you are more
11 equal than them.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that's a conclusion that is put by
13 Mr. Ierace to the witness, and it has got nothing to do with the quote.
14 That's what was my first thought as well.
15 And please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll move on.
17 Q. You told us that in 1981 -- I withdraw that.
18 Did Colonel Zarkovic come back to the SRK at Lukavica?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Into the same position. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is there any reason as to why you cannot remember even
23 approximately the year that he returned to become your boss again?
24 A. There is. The time that has passed since then.
25 Q. Do you remember whether when he returned, General Galic was still
1 the corps commander?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Incidentally, has Colonel Zarkovic retired from the army of RS,
4 the VRS?
5 A. I don't know about his details. I don't know when he retired, but
6 I do know that he is now a pensioner.
7 Q. And as such, he receives a pension from the government of
8 Republika Srpska. Is that correct?
9 A. You have to ask him about that. I don't know.
10 Q. Also, you used the word "pensioner." One might reasonably assume
11 that if he's retired, and you tell us that he is a pensioner, he would
12 receive a pension as a result of his service with the Army of Republika
13 Srpska. In that case, if for whatever reason the authorities wished to
14 contact Colonel Zarkovic, you would expect them to have his details,
15 including his address, would you not?
16 A. I don't know about that. I can only make assumptions, but I don't
17 know whether they have his address or not.
18 Q. Sir, can you tell me why you are so reticent to make such a simple
19 assumption as that?
20 A. I'm not at all reticent. I'm just telling you what I know.
21 Q. When was the last time that you saw General Milovanovic?
22 A. I think -- I think I saw him about a month ago while passing by.
23 Q. Where were you when you saw him?
24 A. In Banja Luka.
25 Q. Do you know his address?
1 A. No.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to
3 this series of questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't see what the relevance
6 of the -- of this person's address is with regard to the case that we have
7 to assess today. I'm wondering.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if you're inviting me to indicate the
10 relevance, I think in the interests of the Defence, I would have to do it
11 in private session in the absence of the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be a possibility to deal with the issue,
13 let's say tomorrow in the beginning of the next session, and you move to
14 your next subject now.
15 But I would like to tell you already now, Mr. Ierace, that the
16 witness is not in a position that he has to explain why he doesn't follow
17 you in assuming certain facts. You have asked the witness about facts but
18 he needs not explain why he does not follow assumptions that might be
19 true, might not be true.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
22 Q. Did you ever carry out interpreting duties for General Mladic in
23 the relevant period?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection with regard to the
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again, if you wish to hear me on that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's apparent that it might be relevant. It
3 cannot be said it's less relevant. Please proceed.
4 MR. IERACE:
5 Q. Would you please answer the question.
6 A. I acted as interpreter at the meetings that General Mladic
8 Q. Yes, and that's between September 1992 and August 1994. Is that
9 correct, including that period?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How often?
12 A. On several occasions when these meetings were held. Perhaps on
13 five occasions.
14 Q. Did he sometimes attend the mixed military working groups?
15 A. Yes, when it was necessary to sign one of the agreements.
16 Q. But General Mladic spoke English, didn't he?
17 A. I don't know whether he speaks English, but he never spoke English
18 in front of me.
19 Q. I see. And did you interpret for any other generals in the
20 general staff or, as I think it was called then, the supreme staff, in the
21 relevant period, I should add?
22 A. It was never called the supreme staff. It was called the general
23 staff. And I interpreted when it was necessary at all the meetings. And
24 to be more specific, this includes the meetings that General Milovanovic
25 had, some of those meetings.
1 Q. And General Tolimir, was he another one?
2 A. I also interpreted at meetings of the mixed military working group
3 at the Sarajevo airport, and General Tolimir was present there, too.
4 Q. What was his particular area of responsibility? Did it have
5 anything to do with intelligence?
6 A. General Tolimir was deputy chief of the general staff for
7 intelligence affairs in the Army of Republika Srpska.
8 Q. You told us yesterday that you attended an intelligence course,
9 you completed it in 1986. How long did that take?
10 A. [In English] Your Honour, before I answer. I have something to
11 change. I said General Tolimir was deputy chief of the staff for
12 intelligence and security affairs.
13 MR. IERACE: It is at page 10, line 21.
14 THE WITNESS: It's missing --
15 MR. IERACE: Missing a reference to "and security."
16 Q. Is that correct?
17 A. [In English] Yes.
18 Q. All right. Now, how long did that course take, the intelligence
20 A. [Interpretation] Three months.
21 Q. And for how long did you study foreign languages in Belgrade?
22 A. For ten and a half months in Belgrade in the JNA school of foreign
24 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that you're an intelligent man. Would you
25 agree with that?
1 A. Difficult for one to speak of one's self. If that's what you
2 believe, then I hope that is the case.
3 Q. All right. And certainly, the job that you did in that period
4 between September 1992 and August 1994 involved a considerable degree of
5 trust on the part of the senior leadership of the VRS, trust of you.
6 Would you agree with that?
7 A. Trust is a basis for the functioning of an army, mutual trust
8 among officers, between superiors and subordinates. I don't think trust
9 in my regard was in any way different from the general principle of trust
10 that prevailed then.
11 Q. Sir, they trusted you with their words. General Mladic trusted
12 you with his words when he dealt with the warring parties and the
13 United Nations, didn't he?
14 A. As an interpreter, it was my duty to interpret literally, to
15 interpret what was said literally.
16 Q. And they chose you. Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As did General Galic, he trusted you to communicate accurately for
19 him with various United Nations organisations. Correct?
20 A. I hope so.
21 Q. They depended on you, they trusted you also, because inevitably,
22 they wanted you to keep their confidence, I suggest to you, mixing as you
23 did with the leadership of the VRS and the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
24 A. I don't understand the question.
25 Q. I'm suggesting to you that inevitably in the work you did, the
1 work that you tell us you did, you would be expected to keep confidences
2 in relation to the people for whom you interpreted.
3 A. That's taken for granted. Even your interpreters who are here,
4 it's their duty to be confidential and to keep what they interpret secret.
5 Q. I think you told us before the break, correct me if I'm wrong, I
6 haven't checked it, that there was some sort of acceleration of your
7 promotion to Lieutenant-Colonel, I think you said, by some six months. Is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you think perhaps that reflected, given the level at which that
11 decision was taken to promote you, considerable satisfaction on their part
12 with the job you did, the trust they held in you?
13 A. I think that I performed my duties professionally, and that was a
14 way of awarding me for having professionally carried out my duties.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please come to your point.
16 MR. IERACE: I think the point is made, Mr. President. I'll move
18 Q. In relation to the structure of your duties, was there an order
19 given on the 7th of February, 1993, by the general command as to the
20 responsibilities of the liaison group?
21 A. I cannot remember that.
22 Q. This morning, you were asked questions about an order dated the
23 6th of August, 1993, which you said referred to your obligations. Did
24 that order change those obligations from what they were before that date?
25 A. If my memory serves me right, it was an order to the effect that
1 the movement of humanitarian convoys can be authorised exclusively by the
2 main staff. If that was the case, then it did not constitute any change
3 compared to the situation before that.
4 Q. Well, in fact, according to the English transcript, it says that
5 such convoys cannot be performed orally by phone but exclusively by
6 written document of the VRS main staff. Prior to that, had they approved
7 convoys orally by phone?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Never?
10 A. Never.
11 Q. Then why would they say it? What need would there be for saying
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. The next sentence reads: Liaison officers with the UNPROFOR are
15 not authorised for the approval of movement of UNPROFOR and human aid
17 Had you before the date of that letter approved the movement of
18 UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid convoys?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Again, if that's the case, why would they issue this order?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Paragraph 6, with its order, the SRK command will regulate
23 movement of people and vehicles of UNPROFOR only from barracks Lukavica to
24 Sarajevo airport and back. All other movements inside from the town of
25 Sarajevo including Sarajevo airport is approved by VRS main staff. Was
1 that a change from the previous practice?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So you had to seek written permission from VRS main staff. Was
4 that at Pale or somewhere else?
5 A. Written permissions for the movement of convoys were requested
6 through the liaison group by those who escorted such convoys, that is, the
7 UNPROFOR, not myself. And it is generally known that the main staff was
8 not located at Pale, but at Han Pijesak, and such requests for permission
9 went through the main staff there.
10 Q. Nevertheless, were there times when you had to communicate
11 documents to the VRS main staff for whatever reason?
12 A. Yes, I forwarded the documents that I had received from UNPROFOR
13 or some other organisation.
14 Q. Would you do that by fax or hand delivery or what?
15 A. Since the documents in question were public, they were usually
16 sent by fax.
17 Q. And just referring back to that first sentence which I didn't read
18 verbatim, it required that approval be given --
19 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, I don't have...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a problem with the B/C/S translation? Then
21 we'll first wait until it is restored. I will say a few words. And I do
22 understand that the translation is now functioning again. So please
23 proceed, Mr. Ierace. Perhaps you repeat your question.
24 MR. IERACE: Yes.
25 Q. The order refers to approval being given "exclusively by written
1 order of VRS main staff and corpus command." Did corpus command the SRK,
2 the command of the SRK?
3 A. If I remember it correctly, the title of the order makes mention
4 of the fact that the order is being sent to all corps of the VRS including
5 the SRK. What this specifically means is that if the SRK command received
6 an order from the main staff, then it was within its competence to ensure
7 safe passage of the humanitarian convoy which was subject to the
9 Q. All right. I take it there were no standing orders in this
10 regard; in other words, every individual convoy had to be approved by at
11 least the VRS main staff. Is that correct? By written document. Is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You told us yesterday that as a result of threats you moved from
15 the PTT, but then later, the office was opened at the PTT but you did not
16 go back. When was that that the office at the PTT was reopened?
17 A. Again, if I remember correctly, it was reopened after a month
18 because in the meantime, we had received additional guarantees of UNPROFOR
19 command concerning safety of our officers.
20 Q. Why was it that you didn't go back, that others instead fulfilled
21 the role of liaison officer at the PTT, and you stayed at Lukavica? Even
22 at that stage in presumably October 1992, was there already a distinction
23 between you and the other liaison officers?
24 A. The office of the liaison officers in the PTT building lost the
25 importance it had because after liaison officers from HVO had been
1 captured by Muslims, the Croats closed their office. And only two sides
2 remained as liaison offices, the Serbian and the Muslim side. This didn't
3 make it possible for there to be any real discussions, if the third side
4 wasn't present. This is why the office itself no longer had any
5 importance, and anyone could perform the function of a courier in that
7 Q. They were members of your liaison group, though, weren't they?
8 Yes or no.
9 A. Yes. And as I said, they weren't professional officers. These
10 people were people who had been made part of the liaison group on various
12 Q. So even at that stage in October 1992, there was effectively three
13 levels within the liaison group, there were the nonprofessional officers
14 in the PTT building, and then there was you in Lukavica headquarters, and
15 then there was your boss, Colonel Zarkovic. Is that correct?
16 A. I don't know what the question.
17 Q. Do you agree that there were three levels? There were the
18 nonprofessional liaison officers, as you referred to them, in the PTT
19 building in Sarajevo. Above them was you at the Lukavica headquarters,
20 and above you was Colonel Zarkovic. Is that correct?
21 A. I agree that there were different categories as far as the
22 composition of the liaison group is concerned. However, the duties and
23 responsibilities of officers were the same.
24 Q. I suggest to you that they were not. I suggest to you that your
25 responsibilities were greater than those of the liaison officers who were
1 stationed at the PTT building after October of 1992. Do you agree or
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Translation, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No translation? Then we'll see whether it will
5 be restored. Yes, it seems to be restored.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but we didn't hear the
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President --
9 JUDGE ORIE: May the question be repeated.
10 THE INTERPRETER: It seems that interpreters in the B/C/S booth
11 are having technical problems, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that there are technical problems.
13 Is the assistance of technicians needed? Is it a matter of microphones
14 or...? Could we just try to proceed, and as soon as the interpretation
15 falls away again, that I'm immediately informed and could the technicians
16 perhaps meanwhile see what they can achieve.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we can proceed, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. IERACE: All right.
20 Q. Now, the question that wasn't interpreted I will repeat: I am
21 suggesting to you that your responsibilities were greater than those of
22 the liaison officers of the Bosnian Serb forces, civilian and military,
23 who were stationed at the PTT building after October 1992. Do you agree
24 or do you disagree?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Does that mean you disagree?
2 A. No, I don't agree.
3 Q. All right. Now, you told us that in terms of protests, that there
4 were more verbal protests than written protests, and that verbal protests
5 mostly came through the UNMOs, the UN military observers, to you. At some
6 stage, did you put the verbal protests that you received into a written
8 A. The verbal protests that were received from the UN military
9 observers were not put into a written form.
10 Q. You told us that you would pass the protests on to the duty
11 officer. Does that mean that you did it orally? You simply spoke to him
12 and told him what the protest was?
13 A. Yes, because he was physically 10 metres away from my office.
14 Q. You told us today that he would then contact the relevant brigade
15 commander. I take it that was by telephone. I think you said as much.
16 Is that correct?
17 A. No, I didn't say that.
18 Q. All right. How would he contact the brigade commander?
19 A. Well, that's a different issue. How he would contact the brigade
20 commander, I don't know how he would do it. But I guess it would have
21 been by phone.
22 Q. All right. You told us that he would receive a kind of interim
23 combat report to find out what's really happening in the area. What would
24 he do with that? Would he then report back to you or to someone else?
25 A. Duty officer normally submits his report to the corps commander in
1 terms of hierarchy. In the absence of the commander, he submits his
2 report to the deputy -- to the chief of staff.
3 Q. Is it your understanding that even at that point, that it still
4 hasn't been committed to paper, it is simply a matter of passing on orally
5 the nature of the protest?
6 A. The communication between the duty officer and the corps commander
7 or the chief of staff, if the latter are not absent, if they are not at
8 the forward command post or someone else was direct because they were
9 located in the same building. This communication was never in a written
10 form normally.
11 Q. You told us that you would report back to the UN, as I understood
12 it, in this case, verbal protests from UNMOs, you would report back to the
13 UNMOs. Where would you receive your information, from the corps
14 commander, from the chief of staff, or from the duty officer?
15 A. The feedback that I forwarded to the military observers, I
16 sometimes got it from the duty officer and sometimes from the corps
17 commander, depending on what it was all about.
18 Q. When you got it from the corps commander, would you typically
19 receive it by telephone or would you be called up to his office or what?
20 A. If it was necessary for the corps commander to transmit the
21 response directly, he will call me by phone to come to his office. He
22 would tell me what the response was, and I would then take this response
23 to the military observers.
24 Q. Was your office on the ground floor at the headquarters?
25 A. The building where the corps command was located consists of two
1 parts, as you probably know. My office was located on the ground floor of
2 one of the parts --
3 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... The question is simply, and
4 I think you've told us. Your office was on the ground floor. Was
5 General Galic's office upstairs?
6 A. My office was on the ground floor, and General Galic's office was
7 on the first floor in the other part of the building.
8 Q. When you say the other part of the building, was it not within the
9 same building as your office, but on a different floor?
10 A. There's only one roof, I mean, there are no two buildings. There
11 were just two parts of one and the same building connected with one
12 passage. And we were not in the same part of the building.
13 Q. So you would come back downstairs and go into the UNMOs' office
14 and tell them the result. Is that right, the result of their verbal
16 A. Upon the return from the office of the corps commander, I was
17 supposed to go downstairs, then go to the other part of the building,
18 leave the building, go to the office of the military observers and inform
19 them of the results of their protest.
20 Q. Mr. Indic, a yes would have done as an answer to that question. I
21 don't mean to be rude, but we don't have much time.
22 At any stage would those protests be reduced to writing by you?
23 A. If they were received in verbal form, they were never put on
24 paper. There was no response in writing.
25 Q. So no records were kept in writing. Is that correct, or no record
1 of the terms of the protest? Is that correct?
2 A. No. I mean, no records were kept.
3 Q. So there were no records to forward on to the general staff. Is
4 that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. So if the UNMOs told you that fire was received from a particular
7 part of the front line that was indiscriminately killing civilians, let's
8 say, you would pass that to the duty officer who would telephone the
9 relevant brigade commander, and if he denied it, that was it. Is that
11 A. No, it's not correct.
12 Q. When the brigade commander denied it, what would then happen? If
13 the brigade commander said that there was no fire from his area, what
14 would happen?
15 A. Your Honours, I'm sorry, but I believe that I answered the
16 previous question that it was not correct. And now, the continuation of
17 the question is based on the assumption that I had answered that it was
19 JUDGE ORIE: No. Mr. Indic, it was suggested to you that once the
20 brigade commander would have denied that that was it, you said that's not
21 correct. And the next question was what would happen if the brigade
22 commander denied that firing had taken place? Would you please answer
23 that question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the question by
25 Mr. Ierace was when I received a protest concerning killing of civilians,
1 I never received any such protest. That's what I had in mind when I said
2 that it was not correct.
3 MR. IERACE:
4 Q. All right, to be clear on this, Mr. Indic, you're telling us that
5 between September 1992 and August 1994, you never once received a protest
6 that civilians were killed by shelling emanating from SRK territory. Is
7 that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And to be perfectly clear on this, you've already told us that all
10 protests came through you. Is that correct, or have I misunderstood your
11 evidence? That is, protests which contended that the perpetrators were
12 within the SRK.
13 A. You misunderstood me. I said that all protests had been sent
14 through the liaison group with UNPROFOR, and not through myself.
15 Q. Yes. And --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to intervene, and this
19 is not the first time that we are having leading tendentious questions
20 such as this one, and I had to draw your attention to this fact.
21 JUDGE ORIE: As such, leading in cross-examination is not
22 forbidden. But let me just put the question quite clearly to you,
23 Mr. Indic: Was ever any protests which contained information that
24 civilians were killed by shelling channelled through you?
25 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the answer, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please repeat the answer. The
2 interpreters could not hear it.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. My answer was no.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the same question in respect of any
5 protests on civilians being killed by sniping. Did you ever receive such
6 protest or were they ever channelled through you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I explained in the first
8 part of my testimony that all infantry fire was referred to as sniping. I
9 never received any specific complete protest concerning a civilian who had
10 been killed by sniper fire.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever receive any protest or was ever
12 such a protest channelled by you that civilians were killed by infantry
13 weapons, whether they were called sniper rifles or in whatever other way?
14 So individual shots killing civilians by infantry weapons such as rifles,
15 whether or not specific sniper rifles.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't receive any such
18 JUDGE ORIE: Neither were they channelled through you?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to my knowledge.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Let's first talk about the period when Colonel Zarkovic was your
23 boss. He didn't speak English. I take it that in terms of verbal
24 protests, whether they came from UNMOs in Lima positions or whether they
25 were verbal protests communicated from the PTT building, that they had to
1 come through you so that you could translate them. Is that correct?
2 A. As for the official translation of documents, we had a civilian, a
3 member of our group, Mrs. Jadranka Milanovic, who is a professor of the
4 English language and who was in charge of this official translation of
6 Q. Would you look at those protests or not, the ones that she
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. So you had contact with those ones. Now, my question
10 was actually about verbal protests. I take it they were made to you at
11 some point, either relayed from the PTT officers or directly to you, and
12 you would then inform the duty officer or perhaps even Colonel Zarkovic as
13 to the nature of the protest. Is that correct?
14 A. It is, but if I may add, also with the colleague that I mentioned
15 before, Mr. Luledzija.
16 Q. All right. The bottom line, if I could put it that way, is that
17 any verbal protest made in the PTT building at any stage between September
18 1992 -- perhaps I should say October 1992 and August 1994, you knew about
19 it. You had to know about it, didn't you?
20 A. I didn't have to know about it if at the given moment I was
21 physically absent from the area.
22 Q. Yes. With that exception. Now, in terms of protests made
23 directly to General Galic, you've told us that you interpreted for him
24 when he met with UN figures. More often than not, were you his
25 interpreter when he met with UNPROFOR people, senior military observers,
1 and the like?
2 A. I stated a moment ago that there was a civilian member of the
3 group, Mrs. Jadranka Milanovic, professor of the English language. If she
4 was absent or if a meeting with a UN representative was held behind closed
5 doors, and no civilians were welcome, then I would be in charge of
6 interpreting that part of the meeting.
7 Q. No, Mr. Indic. A moment ago, according to the English transcript,
8 you told us that she translated the documents. I'm asking you about
9 meetings with General Galic. Are you saying that she would interpret for
10 him at meetings with UNPROFOR, senior military observers, and the like?
11 A. A minute ago you asked me whether she translated documents, and I
12 said that she did. And now you're asking whether she interpreted at
13 meetings, and my answer is yes. In fact, after a very short period of
14 time, Jadranka Milanovic became an employee of the United Nations, and she
15 had duties to perform with the UN military observers. She was assigned a
16 post there.
17 Q. What about with Lieutenant-Colonel Mole, senior military observer.
18 Do you remember him?
19 A. I remember the name.
20 Q. Did you ever interpret for meetings between him and General Galic?
21 A. I can't remember.
22 Q. Is it possible?
23 A. Of course. There were many meetings.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Everything is possible,
1 Mr. President, it's possible that it will rain tomorrow, as you say, et
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Sometimes
4 there could be reasons why something is not possible. This is not
5 generalities, but specific knowledge that could exclude a possibility.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. IERACE:
8 Q. If I could remind you, Lieutenant-Colonel Mole, we have heard, was
9 the senior military observer in Sarajevo from September 1992 to the 26th
10 of December, 1992. Does that cause you to recollect him?
11 A. No. I can remember the name, but I don't remember the person.
12 Q. He has told us that he had regular meetings with the accused many
13 times during a week. And you were quite often present at those meetings.
14 Would you dispute that?
15 A. I've no reason to doubt that, but I can't remember it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. Just
18 for the sake of the transcript, the last name of Jadranka has not been
19 entered into the transcript. This is just to avoid any confusion. I
20 didn't want to interrupt my colleague, but I see that this might cause
21 problems later on.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm sure that someone will work on it. But
23 perhaps the witness --
24 Mr. Indic, perhaps until tomorrow, you could write down the full
25 name of the interpreter of which the first name is Jadranka so that we
1 will be sure how it's written. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I just clarify, Mr. President,
3 what time we're sitting until?
4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll sit for another 10 or 15 minutes, and then we
5 will close for today. And then tomorrow if it goes as smoothly as I
6 expect it goes now, we will have almost four hours left tomorrow. You
7 have taken approximately 1 hour and 25 minutes today. Please proceed.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Indic, I'd like to inform you the essence of the evidence
10 we've heard from Mr. Mole in some respects. That he is
11 Lieutenant-General Richard Mole. He has given evidence that the accused
12 at these meetings that he attended where you were quite often present
13 would tell him quite specifically that Sarajevo would be shelled if
14 demands made on behalf of the Serb side were not met. He has given
15 evidence that this type of threat was made by the accused five to ten
16 times. He has also given evidence that this threat was made both
17 individually by the accused as well as by Serb liaison officers. What do
18 you say to that?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just so that I can verify
22 this, perhaps -- I don't know if it's possible from this courtroom, but I
23 would like to know if I can verify the date of the transcript in question.
24 And if this can't be done, could Mr. Ierace provide us with a copy of
25 these documents so that we could check this. We knew we would be in a
1 situation. We knew we would have problems. And I'm sure that Mr. Ierace
2 doesn't want to take us by surprise.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, do you have the sources available?
4 MR. IERACE: I do, Mr. President, and I could give them as I go
5 through this evidence but it would slow me down and perhaps there could be
6 some latitude in terms of the time I have. The page reference are T
7 that's transcript, Microsoft Word, 9837 is one in terms of the captain, at
8 that stage, I think, and Major Indic being present. 9518. And also
10 Q. Indeed, sir, Lieutenant-General Mole told us --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I also wanted
14 to say that since we know that we haven't got access to these transcripts,
15 since we work in various courtrooms, I asked whether Mr. Ierace could
16 provide us with copies of this so that we could check this matter.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Transcripts of
18 all the court hearings, so there's no need for the Prosecution to provide
19 you with extra copies. And I take it in preparing the cross-examination
20 of a witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Ms. Pilipovic, that you check what has
21 been said by other witnesses about the witness to come. At least that's
22 what one would expect while preparing for either examination-in-chief or
23 cross-examination. But Mr. Ierace, tomorrow we'll be in our own courtroom
24 again. If you would have other subjects at this very moment to deal with,
25 perhaps we could preferably do that, and tomorrow if you have got the
1 pages, and if Mr. Piletta-Zanin has his sources available, then he'll be
2 able to follow without interrupting. So if that would be possible, that
3 would solve the problem.
4 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President. I'll move on to a
5 different topic.
6 Q. Sir, you told us that there were some problems with the protests
7 because you expected that there were certain prerequisites they should
8 indicate the time, for instance, that the incident occurred, the place
9 with some precision, the direction of firing or the area from which fire
10 came, type of weapon and the consequence of the firing. Do you remember
11 telling us that this morning?
12 A. I said that these were preconditions. If adequate measures were
13 to be taken. And if the protest was not simply to be received officially.
14 Q. You said, for instance, it would say in the course of yesterday,
15 there was firing in the area of Marin Dvor. Those kind of protests was
16 useless, and nothing can be taken, no measures can be taken if the protest
17 remains in this form. Do you agree you said that this morning? Would
18 that accurately state your words? That's what you said. That's all I'm
20 A. I agree.
21 MR. IERACE: All right. Now, might the witness be shown D1840
22 again. That's the exhibit he was shown this morning.
23 Q. Do you remember, whilst that's being done that you were shown a
24 letter this morning which you described as a protest from General Galic
25 dated the 21st of April, 1994, addressed to General Rose and General
1 Soubirou. Do you recollect that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Did you expect that protest to be taken seriously?
4 A. To be quite frank, I personally did not expect it to be taken
6 Q. What was the point of it being sent?
7 A. So that the representatives of the peace forces of the UN could be
8 informed of the violation of the truce by the Muslim side.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need to put it in front of the witness
10 any more after the answers already given, Mr. Ierace?
11 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I think there is very briefly.
12 The English translation perhaps since the witness reads English.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. The first point refers to the whole day, doesn't it, during the
16 whole day, do you see those words, positions over region Okruglica?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. No indication of where the fire came from, is there?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In other words, this document, without taking you tediously
21 through it, fails your test, doesn't it?
22 A. It doesn't contain all the necessary elements for measures to be
23 taken in good time.
24 Q. No. And to be fair, in the situation which prevailed in Sarajevo,
25 it wasn't always possible to say with any precision exactly the area that
1 fire came from, was it?
2 A. I agree.
3 Q. But it would still be very useful to any investigator to know the
4 direction or the approximate area, wouldn't it?
5 A. Yes, of course.
6 Q. In fact, I suggest to you that normally protests made by UN
7 agencies such as UNMOs and UNPROFOR included grids, grid references,
8 didn't they?
9 A. Grid references of what? I don't understand the question.
10 Q. Where the fire was received. In other words, a map reference as
11 to where the fire was received in Sarajevo.
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Might the witness be shown
14 Exhibit P784. We might have to show it in private session -- or closed
15 session, Mr. President. I think the relevant witness had some protective
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then turn into private session.
18 [Private session]
12 Page 18690 – redacted – private session
12 Page 18691 – redacted – private session
12 Page 18692 – redacted – private session
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I then inform the parties additionally that since
11 they might have received a message that the UN holiday that was supposed
12 to be on the 12th of February has been changed to the 11th of February,
13 that would mean that we would presumably not sit on the 11 and we would
14 sit on the 12th, on the 14th of February, we would not sit because of
15 Court maintenance. Since there is an opportunity on the 10th of February
16 and on the 13th of February to sit more than just morning or afternoon,
17 the Chamber will consider whether we can find any extra time during these
18 days. And so therefore the parties should be prepared for changes in the
19 schedule for that particular week.
20 We'll then adjourn until -- yes, Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you did foreshadow some further
22 submissions in relation to one of the objections by my learned colleague.
23 Would you prefer that we did that tomorrow morning or now?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we could do that, but then first the
25 witness should be escorted out of the courtroom. Mr. Usher, could I ask
1 you to do so.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would like to substantiate
4 the objection you made before, you may do so now.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's very late
6 in the afternoon, and I must admit I don't quite understand what you mean.
7 Which objection?
8 JUDGE ORIE: There was an objection by you. We thought it would
9 be better to deal with it in the absence of the witness, and I asked
10 Mr. Ierace whether there would be any possibility for him to move to his
11 next subject we would not have to pull down the curtains.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'm really
13 exhausted, and I no longer have it in mind.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you assist with what the objection
15 was about, what question exactly.
16 MR. IERACE: I think the question Mr. President was whether he
17 knew the address of General Milovanovic. He said that he would seen him
18 about a month ago. Perhaps I should go into private session to explain
19 the relevance.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to deal with it in a couple of minutes and
21 not more. We turn into private session.
22 [Private session]
12 Page 18695 – redacted – private session
12 Page 18696 – redacted – private session
1 Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.46 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Friday,
3 the 31st day of January, 2003,
4 at 9.00 a.m.