1 Friday, 31 January 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone, including you, Mr. Indjic.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to resume the
12 cross-examination of Mr. Indjic?
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 WITNESS: MILENKO INDJIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE ORIE: You then may proceed.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]
18 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know
20 where Mr. Ierace is going to continue, but apart from the pages, can my
21 learned colleague give me also the dates of the interventions that he
22 quoted yesterday at the end of the hearing. It would be much easier for
23 us like this to orient ourselves.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can't give the dates, but I can give
25 the page references. They are the references to the pages of the
1 transcript, Microsoft Word.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have the pages. We got
4 them yesterday. I will do some research, random research. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Indjic.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Yesterday, I put to you some evidence that we have heard from
10 Lieutenant-General Mole. I will repeat to you some aspects of his
11 evidence. He said that General Galic -- he was a person that he met with,
12 and that you were quite often present at those meetings. And at those
13 meetings, General Galic would tell him quite specifically that Sarajevo
14 would be shelled if demands made on behalf of the Serb side were not met.
15 He gave evidence that this type of threat was made by General Galic five
16 to ten times. He also gave evidence that that threat was made both
17 individually by the accused as well as by Serb liaison officers. And he
18 said that you attended his meetings with General Galic more often than
19 not, although your attendance dropped off and became more infrequent
20 towards the end of Lieutenant-General Mole's period in Sarajevo, which I
21 remind you was between September 1992 and the end of December 1992.
22 What do you say to that evidence?
23 A. Several claims have been now made. I have to deal with them one
24 by one in order to give you my explanation and my opinion. First of all,
25 I should like to repeat what I stated yesterday, that the name Mole is
1 quite familiar to me, but I cannot remember who the person is. Similarly,
2 I cannot remember whether I attended the meetings that Mr. Mole had with
3 General Galic. I do not deny the possibility, however, I do not
4 specifically recall it.
5 Second, it has been put that General Galic said that he would
6 shell Sarajevo if demands made on behalf of the Serb side were not met.
7 Not at a single meeting that I attended with General Galic did I hear such
8 a claim being made by General Galic.
9 Third, it has also been put to me that individual Serb liaison
10 officers said the same, expressed the same threat. I claim here with full
11 responsibility that such a claim was never made by myself.
12 As for the last statement that I -- that my attendance dropped off
13 eventually, I cannot comment because I really do not remember how often I
14 attended these meetings.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I need to check something, but
18 I don't see this in the pages that I have. Could Mr. Ierace give us the
19 exact pages and the transcript where he got this information from. Thank
20 you in advance.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I thought I had done that yesterday,
22 and I should add one further page reference for the frequency of
23 attendance of the witness at those meetings, which is 10.955. I may have
24 given that. And also 10.98, I think it is, 3.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did you find the date?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I started with the beginning.
2 Yesterday, I noted the pages 9857, 9518. I cannot on the basis of this
3 continue, but Mr. Ierace can continue.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Mr. Ierace,
5 please proceed.
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. Yesterday, you gave some evidence about daily meetings which
8 occurred at a command -- at the command level at the Lukavica
9 headquarters. You said that there were two types, the first was when
10 there was intensive activity going on, and the second was what you call
11 normal meetings when there was not such activity, and those normal
12 meetings were attended by someone from your liaison group. Did you attend
13 those meetings?
14 A. When Colonel Zarkovic was absent, that is, in the period when I
15 carried out the duty of the chief of the group, I attended those meetings,
17 Q. You also said that there was another type of meeting, an analysis
18 meeting, which was held perhaps biannually. Did you attend those meetings
19 in Colonel Zarkovic's absence?
20 A. I mentioned the analysis in response to the question whether
21 brigade commanders attend the meetings, and I said that according to what
22 I know, they were present when annual or biannual analyses were done.
23 However, these meetings were not attended by anyone from the liaison group
24 with UNPROFOR.
25 Q. In your office at Lukavica headquarters, did you have a television
2 A. During a period of time, yes, and then at other times, no. At the
3 very beginning, I think we did have, it but I don't know when we got it.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm really
5 sorry, but in order for us to understand, I should like -- I would like
6 Mr. Ierace to quote page 1955, because I really cannot -- 10.985. The
7 number that Mr. Ierace gave us is 10.955. 10.955. And in these pages,
8 I'm afraid I didn't find that. Could Mr. Ierace be perhaps more precise
9 and give us the paragraph in question, for example.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's what date?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I opened several of them, but
12 I think we should focus on the 7th of March -- excuse me, the 7th of
13 July -- no, the 3rd of July, Mr. President. It's the 109th day.
14 JUDGE ORIE: What is it exactly that you couldn't find?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm sorry, I'm
16 trying to find the relevant day. I didn't give you the right references,
17 but I just found it. 10.955. And on that page, I didn't find the
18 references concerning the question that has just been asked by
19 Mr. Ierace, with respect of the testimony of Lieutenant-Colonel Mole.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I would now like to know exactly what part of the
21 question do you contest to be correct?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In relation to the presence of
23 the witness concerning the claims of Mr. Mole regarding the illegitimate
24 shelling of Sarajevo.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I'm just wondering. Was part of your
1 question that when that happened, those specific meetings that the witness
2 was present, or that these things were said during meetings in which most
3 of them the witness was present? It's not quite clear to me.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respond to that in the absence
5 of the witness, and in private session. I respectfully submit that
6 perhaps we should establish some ground rules, because there is much of
7 this testimony to be put to the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Indjic, may I ask you to leave the courtroom.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the reference
10 is actually the 2nd of February, 2002, the 108th day. I didn't find this
11 on the relevant page in relation to the question by Mr. Ierace.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I have some difficulties to accept
13 that the 2nd of February, 2002, was the 108th day of this Court hearing.
14 Numbers stand for something. The 108th day was approximately a couple of
15 months after we started.
16 Mr. Ierace --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my apologies.
20 The 2nd of July.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, firstly in response to your specific
23 question, I put to the witness yesterday that Mr. Mole had regular
24 meetings with the accused and Captain Indjic was present at those meetings
25 quite often. And indeed, that was further the subject of evidence by
1 Mr. Mole that Captain Indjic was present more often than not at the first
2 meetings and then they dropped off. The end result of that evidence is
3 that this witness may or may not have been present when these things were
4 said. And that was clearly -- that was made clear to this witness.
5 Further, that the type of threat was made by the accused five to ten
6 times, in other words, it would seem that at quite a large number of those
7 meetings. That's the basis upon which it's put to the witness. And I
8 think the witness's answer Indjicates that he understood that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask you first, you
10 said that you need a specific quote, and the general rule here is that if
11 there are good reasons to assume that the testimony of a witness is
12 misrepresented, that you can ask for a quote if there's any serious
13 contest to what has been said. Could you please Indjicate what part of the
14 question you contest to be a fair reflection, I'm not saying literal word,
15 but a fair reflection of what the testimony was?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not
17 contest generally speaking that there should have been such declarations.
18 But what I would like to do is to be able to exercise my rights properly,
19 to know exactly where these details come from. If the Prosecution is not
20 able to give us the relevant references or are only giving us wrong
21 references I don't see how we can proceed. The same principle applied to
22 the Defence and I think it should apply to the Prosecution.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it's different. That
24 principle did not apply to the Defence. Whenever there's a serious
25 question of whether the way the earlier evidence is presented could be not
1 correct, then the other party is allowed to ask for a specific source.
2 Since you demonstrated that you want for every single summary of an
3 earlier testimony of a witness, you want the source, you have read them, I
4 take it. You were guided by me yesterday that you prepare for reading all
5 the testimony that refers to the present witness. You now asked for a
6 reference of something that was not truly contested as being a fair
7 reflection of what the witness has said.
8 And of course, you can check whether the quotations are right. If
9 you need assistance, it has been given to you. Page references have been
10 given to you yesterday. So there's no way that you cannot check that.
11 But you cannot for every single question ask without serious grounds to
12 give the page reference. But I'm certain that wherever Mr. Ierace is in a
13 position to use those words that would enable you to search or to tell you
14 on what days what witnesses have testified so you can better search, that
15 everyone will certainly assist you. And if needed, I will do so as well.
16 So if you have difficulties in finding the dates on which certain
17 witnesses testified, I will be glad to help you.
18 The Prosecution is allowed to use its time in a proper way.
19 That's my ruling --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I say is
21 the page 10.955 is the information that I got. But there's nothing in it.
22 That's very simple. I cannot verify all of the transcripts of a
23 particular year because I don't know what questions there will be by the
24 Prosecution. When I asked the reference, I get the wrong one, and there
25 is nothing in it. And once again, I'm sorry, I can't look at it, the
1 screen has been blocked. The computer has been blocked.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We will check that and we will see how we can assist
4 you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, on page 10.955.
5 Is your LiveNote available? It's broken down. Then we'll ask the
6 technicians to assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin restoring his LiveNote.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, are we still in private session, if
9 so, there's one further matter.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We have not been in private session. That is a
11 mistake. Then we should redact --
12 MR. IERACE: Perhaps there's no need to redact.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No need to redact.
14 MR. IERACE: I don't think so. But perhaps we could go into
15 private session to raise one further matter to minimise interruptions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IERACE: Yesterday, Mr. President --
18 [Private session]
12 Pages 18707 – redacted – private session
12 [Open session].
13 JUDGE ORIE: As far as page 10.955 is concerned, I do understand
14 that this is the testimony of Witness Y. And Witness Y, that might have
15 caused the confusion, was the witness in respect of whom questions were
16 put about a document of which we had no copies available for the parties
17 yesterday about crossing the airport. Yes.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. To the
22 extent that we can now see the reference is not a realistic one, I think
23 that as far as this intervention is concerned, or these interventions are
24 concerned, my learned colleague should give me the exact reference. It's
25 not only his duty; it's his obligation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not in general terms his obligation.
2 Whenever there's a serious reason to believe that the way one of the
3 parties puts something to the witness which not properly reflects what is
4 the testimony, then we'll verify the source. So you may Indjicate,
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, why you think that it's not fair, something you did not
6 do in respect of what Mr. Ierace has put to the witness until now. And we
7 will then check it.
8 Let's try -- it's in the interest of the Defence as well, I take
9 it, that there will be time remaining for re-examination if needed. And
10 we have to use our time.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that I said that as
15 far as these ten or more interventions are concerned, they are the
16 problem. I need to know the references Mr. Ierace should tell me where it
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I told you what the ruling is.
19 You now repeat that you want a page for every single word Mr. Ierace
20 speaks. He is not obliged to give at any every single reference the page.
21 And if you have difficulties, I will, where there's a really good reason
22 to check it at the spot, you, having read and having properly prepared
23 this examination, so knowing what the testimony is of whatever other
24 witness about this witness, that's the basis on which we'll continue. And
25 if necessary, we'll check it. You may write it down. During the break,
1 we'll check whether it's correct or not. And if not, be certain that the
2 Prosecution will be reprimanded for that and could have to face
3 consequences why not properly reflecting the evidence of other witnesses.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Ierace, I wish to know if you have the
6 number of the page that that testimony of General Mole's is in the
8 MR. IERACE: That the affirmation that the witness was there more
9 often or not or the --
10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The five to ten times.
11 MR. IERACE: Yes, the five to ten times. Excuse me, Your Honour.
12 That was that the type of threat was made by the accused five to ten
13 times, not that the witness was present. 9837.
14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Now you have the page, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 Thank you.
16 MR. IERACE:
17 Q. Mr. Indjic, did you have any responsibilities to the accused or the
18 Sarajevo Romanija Corps generally to inform them of what was in the media
19 as to the conflict? In other words, what was being reported in the media?
20 A. No, I didn't. Following the media and all the means of
21 information was the duty of the deputy commander for morale and legal
23 Q. What was that officer's name in September 1992?
24 A. Colonel Kosovac.
25 Q. Did he remain in that position through to August 1994?
1 A. I don't remember when he retired.
2 Q. Did anyone else occupy that position between September 1992 and
3 August 1994?
4 A. I can't remember.
5 Q. Was he based at the Lukavica headquarters?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. Was his office on the ground floor?
8 A. No. It wasn't.
9 Q. Was it on the first floor?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did he also have a television in his room, in his office?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. There were satellite dishes on the roof of the headquarters,
14 weren't there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. I suggest to you that between September 1992 and August 1994, at
17 some stage, there were satellite dishes on the roof. Do you agree or
19 A. Only during the period when the military observers were in
20 Lukavica, and they installed their own system for monitoring, their own
21 satellite television monitoring system.
22 Q. When did they make that installation?
23 A. I think it was at the beginning of 1993.
24 Q. Did Colonel Kosavac speak English?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Surely you would know that, sir, you being in the same
2 headquarters, you not knowing, as I understand it, of others who spoke
3 English in the headquarters? Would you not know if he did?
4 A. No, it wasn't something that I should have known.
5 Q. Did he ever ask you to come into his office to view a programme on
6 the television, on a television, in the English language?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you think it was important for the leadership of the Sarajevo
9 Romanija Corps to be aware of what was being reported in the media as to
10 events in Sarajevo?
11 A. I never even thought about it.
12 Q. I suggest to you that you're being untruthful in that answer. I
13 suggest to you that surely that would have occurred to you.
14 A. I don't understand what would have occurred to me.
15 Q. That it would have been useful to follow what was being reported
16 in the media as to events in Sarajevo.
17 A. It probably would have been useful. It's useful to follow
19 Q. And that's something you realised at the time, isn't it?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you have dealings with journalists yourself?
22 A. Yes, as the liaison officer, in order to enable them to contact
23 those who were responsible for giving them press cards, et cetera.
24 Q. All right. What American television journalists did you have
25 contact with in the relevant period?
1 A. I can't remember exactly. There were several persons.
2 Q. Do you remember any names?
3 A. Yes, Christiane Amanpour, for example, Jacky Shumansky, et
5 Q. And were there journalists from other states as well? Television
7 A. I assume so.
8 Q. Did you understand that they were moving on the territory
9 controlled by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. With film crews?
12 A. I don't know who was in the teams, but I know that there were
13 journalists in the territory of Republika Srpska.
14 Q. Are you telling us that you don't know whether they were moving
15 around with film crews, taking pictures for television, these television
17 A. Well, damn it, if they are journalists, it is normal that they are
18 going to shoot this, they are going to film things, but I can't make such
19 a claim because I wasn't with them when they were filming.
20 Q. It was an important consideration, was it not, for security
21 purposes to know whether people who were being approved to move on your
22 territory were filming?
23 A. I understand now. You're confused with regard to my role. I
24 wasn't a security officer. I was a liaison officer.
25 Q. Yes. And indeed Ms. Amanpour interviewed General Galic, didn't
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. As the liaison officer of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, you tell us
4 you don't know whether General Galic was interviewed by
5 Christiane Amanpour, is that correct?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Even though you were responsible for giving her accreditation to
8 be there. Is that correct?
9 A. No, I didn't give foreign journalist accreditations.
10 Accreditations were issued by the press centre in Pale.
11 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
12 Q. Now, you understood that these people were also filming on the
13 other side of the confrontation lines, didn't you?
14 A. I could have assumed that they were filming there, too.
15 Q. Did you make that assumption?
16 A. I would say that I did.
17 Q. Sir, you tell us that it never occurred to you that it would be
18 important to be aware of what these people were filming, what they were
19 doing on the other side of the confrontation line, what they were
20 reporting. I suggest to you that that's something you clearly would have
21 been aware of, the importance of monitoring the media, whether it was your
22 job or not.
23 A. I don't think it is serious to make claims as to what I thought or
24 did not think.
25 Q. Did you watch the television that was in your office for a period
1 of time, in particular, news reports?
2 A. I did, when I had the time.
3 Q. Now, did you understand that someone in the Sarajevo Romanija
4 Corps was monitoring the media in order to determine if there were
5 allegations being aired in the media that Bosnian Serb armed forces were
6 responsible for deliberately or indiscriminately targeting civilians in
7 the city of Sarajevo on the other side of the confrontation lines?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you ever become aware of any investigations that were carried
10 out within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps as a result of such media reports?
11 A. I don't know about any investigations that were carried out on the
12 basis of reports from the media.
13 Q. If there were such investigations, would you expect to have known
14 about them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So apart from protests made by the United Nations, do you say that
17 you had no involvement with investigations that may have been carried out
18 as a result of media reports?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Yesterday, you were asked whether there was a protest lodged by
21 the United Nations as to a shelling of a number of civilians said to have
22 occurred on the 4th of February, 1994, in Dobrinja. And you said -- well,
23 perhaps you could say again, was there such a protest in relation to that
25 A. I never saw such a protest.
1 Q. Do you doubt that there was such a protest from a UN agency made
2 to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
3 A. I do doubt that there was such a protest.
4 Q. When did you first become aware of that shelling?
5 A. Could you be a little more precise and tell me the shelling you
6 are referring to.
7 Q. I'm referring to --
8 MR. IERACE: Well -- excuse me, Mr. President.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to ask
10 you for 30 seconds. I think that General Galic would like to confer with
11 Ms. Pilipovic. And in order to make sure that there is not very much
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
14 Meanwhile, Mr. Ierace.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And I'd like to tell the
16 Chamber that there is nothing on page 9837. I've just verified that.
17 There's nothing in that page.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Are you using the French or the English transcript,
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you know that
21 we don't have access --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Written, perhaps. You checked it on your computer,
23 so it should be the English. Thank you.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, so as not to
25 waste any time, Mr. Ierace can proceed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you're ready, Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
2 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: He has asked you for details of the 4th of February
4 shelling in Dobrinja.
5 MR. IERACE: Yes, I ask the witness be shown a document,
6 Prosecution Exhibit P3778.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Is this a recall exhibit, Mr. Ierace?
8 MR. IERACE: This is a fresh exhibit. For the assistance of the
9 Trial Chamber and the Defence, this is a photocopy taken from the
10 commission of experts report for the 4th of February, 1994.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To the extent that this
13 document has just been produced, is there a translation into the Serbian
14 language for General Galic because it is in English, and if not, we will
15 be at a slight disadvantage.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parts you referred to, if you could read
17 them, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, so that they can be translated.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you said Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Did you
19 mean me, to read them?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I made a mistake.
21 MR. IERACE: Yes, certainly.
22 Q. Now, do you have before you a document which in the left-hand
23 column at number 723 bears the date 4.2.94 [Friday]? Do you see that on
24 the front page?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. All right, I will take you through some parts of that document.
2 Do you see under (b), "targets hit: A food line in Dobrinja"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. "Description of damage: Significant loss of civilian lives."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "Sources, Agence France Presse, Reuters."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then under (d) "casualties: Nine people including two
9 children were killed and 18 others were wounded when shells hit a line of
10 people waiting for flour to be distributed in Dobrinja at 11.00 a.m.
11 Sources: Agence France Presse, Reuters."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And then going over the page, second paragraph: "According to
14 UNPROFOR, the flour line shell was fired from a Serb-held area." And then
15 a quote: "A crater analysis by UN military monitors has shown that the
16 mortars came from the Serb side about 2.5 miles to the southeast in the
17 Lukavica." UN military spokesman, Major Jose Labandiera said. He also
18 said: "The line was hit by three 120 millimetre mortar shells."
19 Labandiera added that "UNPROFOR BiH commander Sir Michael Rose had
20 inspected the blood splattered site right after the early afternoon attack
21 and a crater analysis quickly followed. Bosnian Serbs denied
22 responsibility for the shelling. In a statement carried by the Tanjug
23 news agency, the Bosnian Serb army command stated that `no mortars were
24 fired from Serb army positions in the sector around 11.00 a.m.', the time
25 of the attack. Nikola Koljevic, vice-president of the Republic
1 'vigorously' protested, at what he called a `setup job' that had cost
2 civilian lives. He said that UNPROFOR `can check for themselves, but Serb
3 forces don't have artillery pieces at Vranjes' from which the BiH army
4 alleged the mortars were fired."
5 Now, does that refresh your memory as to the incident that you
6 were asked by Mr. Piletta-Zanin yesterday and that I have been asking
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you now recollect a protest being made by the UN in relation to
10 that shelling?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you accept that a protest would have been made, although you
13 don't remember it?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. The
15 question is highly hypothetical.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, to ask someone whether he accepts
17 something happened when he just said that he has no recollection, is that
18 of any use? Would that assist the Chamber.
19 MR. IERACE: I would have thought that it would assist the
20 Chamber. But if you think not --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. IERACE: -- Perhaps I'll move on.
23 Q. Now, if a protest was made, given the evidence -- your evidence
24 yesterday as to how protests came through you, it would have passed your
25 desk, wouldn't it?
1 A. The group for cooperation with UNPROFOR would have received it.
2 Q. Do you mean the group at Pale?
3 A. No, I am referring to the group in Lukavica, the one that I was
4 part of.
5 Q. Yes. And the head of that group at that stage was you, wasn't it?
6 A. I don't remember whether that was the period when Colonel Zarkovic
7 had already returned from the ministry or whether I had that position at
8 the time.
9 Q. When communications were directed by the Bosnian Serb liaison
10 officers at the PTT building in Sarajevo to the Lukavica headquarters,
11 they came to you, didn't they?
12 A. They were received by the group for cooperating with UNPROFOR.
13 Whether that was myself or someone else at the time, that is less
15 Q. Even if Colonel Zarkovic was with the SRK at that stage, you were
16 the next most senior officer in that group, weren't you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you recall telling us yesterday that the liaison officers at
19 the PTT were not professional liaison officers? Do you remember saying
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. You were a professional liaison officer, weren't you?
23 A. Yes, I and my colleague Luledzija, who was -- who is six years my
24 senior. We hold the same rank.
25 Q. Mr. Indjic, I'm suggesting to you that if a protest was made, and I
1 suggest to you further a protest was made, you knew about it. Do you
2 agree or disagree?
3 A. I knew about the protests that I received.
4 Q. And knew nothing of protests that you didn't directly receive. Is
5 that your evidence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 Now, you told us yesterday that there were a number of protests
9 made about sniping. You went on to explain that there was an
10 understanding on the part of those who made the protests, that snipers
11 included -- or sniping included the use of regular infantry weapons. To
12 your knowledge, did the Sarajevo Romanija Corps have snipers, that is,
13 persons trained in the art of sniping in the relevant period?
14 A. I'll answer this question by providing two parts to the answer: I
15 didn't give such a statement such as it has been portrayed in the first
16 part. I said that when there were protests, any infantry fire was treated
17 as sniper fire. As far as the second part of the question is concerned, I
18 don't know whether Sarajevo Romanija Corps had any men who had been
19 trained in sniper action, but I do know that it did not have any snipers.
20 Q. How many times in that relevant period, September 1992 to August
21 1994, did you receive protests alleging that snipers had shot civilians?
22 Just an approximate number.
23 A. You're trying to make me say again that a sniper hit civilians. I
24 don't remember any protests according to which snipers hit civilians. But
25 protests to the effect that sniper fire had been opened, I may have
1 received about 100 such protests.
2 Q. And in the responses that you conveyed back from the duty officer,
3 from General Galic, was there -- was it ever said that the SRK did not
4 have snipers?
5 A. In the answers to those protests, after the matter had been
6 checked, it was determined that this concerned fighting and the exchange
7 of infantry fire.
8 Q. I'll repeat the question. Please listen to it carefully. In the
9 responses that you conveyed back from the duty officer or General Galic,
10 was it ever said that the SRK did not have snipers?
11 A. It wasn't necessary to make such a statement because in the
12 protests, it was never -- they never asked whether we had snipers or not.
13 Q. Well, do I take that as a no, that it was not ever said?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to take you to some further evidence
16 that we have heard. Yesterday, you were asked if you recalled an UNMO by
17 the name of Henneberry, that is, Major Patrick Henneberry, and you told us
18 that you didn't. Does it refresh your memory if I tell you that at one
19 point, he was the commander of UNMOs on the Lima side? That is, the
20 commander of UNMOs based in Lukavica headquarters opposite your office.
21 Do you remember him now?
22 A. Military observers in Lukavica rotated every four or six months.
23 So if you look at that period of time and the number of them who served
24 there, you will understand. It would be very difficult for me to remember
25 him. If you had a photograph, it would of course be helpful.
1 Q. All right. You're saying that you still don't remember him. Is
2 that correct?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. And I think you said yesterday that you didn't
5 socialise -- well, you don't remember socialising with such a person?
6 A. If you could please be more precise. What exactly do you mean
7 when you say "socialising"?
8 Q. I'll remind you of your evidence yesterday. You were asked this
9 question: "Was this one of your close friends with whom you may have gone
10 and taken -- had meals together or had drinks, or you shared some emotions
11 together, something like that? Yes or no." Answer: "Certainly not.
12 Otherwise I would have remembered who this was." Is that still your
13 evidence, that you don't remember then certainly he wasn't someone that
14 you would have socialised with, had meals together or drinks, or shared
15 some emotions together?
16 A. Correct, and I abide by what I said.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps that document could be
18 returned. And I ask the witness be shown a photograph which will be
19 P3449A. Might that be placed on the ELMO.
20 Excuse me, Mr. President.
21 Q. Firstly, do you recognise yourself in the photograph?
22 A. Of course.
23 Q. And are you the person towards the middle of the photograph with
24 your hands around the shoulders of two other people, with the moustache?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Now please disregard the date that appears in the
2 bottom right-hand corner of the photograph. That date is incorrect.
3 Now, do you recognise anyone else who appears in that photograph?
4 A. You want me to move from right to left? We see Colonel Marcetic,
5 the chief of staff of the SRK. Next to him is Tatjana, I believe was her
6 name. She worked at the SRK press centre. Next to her is an UNPROFOR
7 member, judging from the insignia on his shoulders. Then myself. Next to
8 me, Zoran Kos. And next to Zoran, Vesna Matovic who also worked in the
9 press centre, I think.
10 Q. Who was Zoran Kos?
11 A. Zoran Kos was a noncommissioned officer who worked with -- at the
12 security service. He's deceased. He's no longer alive.
13 Q. All right. And did he die during the war?
14 A. He became severely disabled during the war, but I think he died
15 after the war. I don't know the cause of death, though.
16 Q. Do you recognise the room in which you are seen in the photograph?
17 A. It's possible that this was a room which was used by UN military
18 observers in Lukavica. But I'm not sure.
19 Q. Does it look as if some people have had a meal?
20 A. It doesn't look like a lunch, but I think it could have been
21 somebody's birthday or some other type of anniversary. So I think that we
22 just had a snack.
23 Q. I think I can see some steak on the table. Would you agree with
25 A. All I can see is some salami and bread.
1 Q. All right. It looks as if some people have been drinking. Would
2 you agree with that?
3 A. Yes, I can see a couple of glasses on the table, a bottle
4 containing I don't know what. A can of beer maybe. I don't know whether
5 this is a bottle of wine or something else.
6 Q. It looks as if the people here have had a meal. They're having a
7 drink, they're sitting back after the meal and Zoran is smoking, having an
8 after dinner cigarette. That's what the picture suggests, isn't it?
9 A. Well, if you look at that part, if you look at Zoran, yes.
10 However, if you take a look at Colonel Marcetic, you will see that he
11 looks a bit worried. At least to me.
12 Q. Yes. And you have no idea of the name of the person around whose
13 shoulders you have your arms. Is that correct?
14 A. Well, in light of the story we heard so far, I assume this is
15 Mr. Henneberry, otherwise you wouldn't have showed me the photograph.
16 However, without a previous story and without your mentioning his name, I
17 don't think that I would be able to tell you who the person is. I
18 wouldn't be able to tell you his name.
19 Q. Does he look familiar, even if you don't recognise him?
20 A. Yes, he does look familiar. I can recognise him on this picture.
21 But if you had shown me any other photograph, I wouldn't have been able to
22 link the name with the face. I am familiar with the name and the face,
23 but I couldn't make that connection.
24 Q. What if I tell you he was Canadian. Does that help?
25 A. Well, I can see that judging by his uniform.
1 Q. All right. Mr. Indjic, Major Henneberry has given evidence. And
2 I'd like your response to some aspects of his evidence. He has told us
3 that he was the senior military observer and later commander of Lima UNMOs
4 between the 30th of July 1992, that's when he was a military observer, and
5 by December 1992, he was based permanently at Lukavica barracks where he
6 stayed until mid-February 1993. Does that assist in your recollection?
7 Yes or no.
8 A. No.
9 Q. He has told us that before he moved permanently to Lukavica
10 barracks, he would visit the barracks sometimes once a week, sometimes
11 several times a week, and he would speak to you. Tell me, did you ever
12 visit the Lima observation posts in the relevant period, September 1992 to
13 August 1994?
14 A. The question is not precise enough because there was a Lima HQ and
15 seven additional observation posts that belonged to the Lima. Which Lima
16 position did you have in mind?
17 Q. Yes, but I didn't ask you about the headquarters. Did you
18 visit - I'll rephrase it - any of the Lima observation --
19 A. But there were seven such positions.
20 Q. Yes --
21 JUDGE ORIE: The question, Mr. Indjic, is did you visit any of the
22 seven observation posts? Could you answer that question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I visited most of the Lima
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. All right. Major Henneberry tells us that at Lima 7, he observed
2 numerous times soldiers firing weapons, indirect weapons, artillery and so
3 on, without aiming, sometimes whilst intoxicated, and in some cases he
4 would see the Bosnian Serb soldiers at Lima 7 actually just kick the
5 weapons, and where they stopped was fine, and they would fire that way.
6 Did you ever see any of that behaviour at Lima 7?
7 A. For the sake of precision, could you please remind me -- actually,
8 I'm afraid I don't quite understand your question. There was an addition
9 of some sort at the very end.
10 Q. Mr. Indjic, did you ever visit Lima 7?
11 A. I was about to give you my answer. But in order to be precise, I
12 cannot remember all of the markings where each of the Lima posts were.
13 Could you tell me the geographical location of Lima 7.
14 Q. Yes. Lima 7 is roughly to the east of Sarajevo. It's north of
15 the Miljacka River. So in that sense, in the northeast. Does that assist
16 you with your recollection?
17 A. Blagovac perhaps? Do you remember the name of Blagovac?
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, to save time, I have a copy of P742,
19 if we cannot obtain the tendered one quickly.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If it may be put on the ELMO, and the Defence will
21 have an opportunity to see the -- to compare the -- the original is
22 available already, Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE: All right. I'm grateful to Madam Registrar.
24 Q. Do you see on the map in front of you L7?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Accept from me we've heard evidence that that was the
2 position Lima 7. Did you ever go there?
3 A. Never.
4 Q. Are you shocked to hear this account of how weapons were sometimes
5 fired from Lima 7?
6 A. I don't know about being shocked.
7 Q. Are you surprised?
8 A. Well, you are now being hypothetical. You're asking me whether
9 I'm surprised if that was the case. Well, if that was the case, indeed,
10 then I am surprised.
11 Q. Major Henneberry gave evidence that the soldiers on Lima 7, and
12 indeed other positions, other Lima observation posts, told him frequently
13 that they would just fire because they wanted to at no particular target
14 on occasion. And sometimes they would fire in other observation posts
15 just by the time of day in the general area of target. He said that Limas
16 10 and 11, that is the Bosnian Serb forces at those two observation posts,
17 would open fire frequently around suppertime.
18 Do you recollect ever having heard allegations of that nature made
19 to you in respect -- or allegations of that nature in respect of Lima 7,
20 Lima 10, Lima 11, or any of the Bosnian Serb forces at Lima observation
22 A. No.
23 Q. He gave evidence that the commanders of the Bosnian Serb forces at
24 Limas 3 and 7 admitted that their soldiers were firing indiscriminately.
25 He said many times -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that. Start again.
1 Major Henneberry gave evidence that many times he was standing at
2 the gun position while the guns were being fired, and the forces with
3 smiles on their faces, that is, the gun crews, would say to him "we're not
4 firing." Have you heard that said before in relation to the gun crews at
5 any of the Lima posts?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Major Henneberry gave evidence that before he moved in to
8 Lukavica, when he would visit Lukavica once, perhaps several times a week,
9 he would complain to you occasionally as to Bosnian Serb forces being
10 responsible for the deaths of civilians. Do you recollect that?
11 A. Not only is my answer no, but I also have to add that no one ever
12 complained to me that Bosnian Serb forces had been responsible for any
13 civilian death in that form.
14 Q. All right. He also told us that after he moved in to Lukavica, he
15 complained to you about the shelling of civilian areas in Sarajevo "dozens
16 and dozens, if not hundreds, of times." What do you say to that?
17 A. It's a lie.
18 Q. He gave evidence that some days, he would spend six hours with
19 you, some days he would meet with you 20 or 30 times. Do you still not
20 recognise the person in the photograph around whose shoulders you had your
21 left arm?
22 A. It is not true that I don't remember. I told you that I do
23 remember the face on the photograph when I saw it, and I had already told
24 you that I remembered the name also. But I couldn't make the connection
25 between the name and the face.
1 Q. I'll come back to that answer later. In the meantime,
2 Major Henneberry said that your response was: "Much rhetoric about why
3 the Serbs were shelling the Muslim civilians and military, how the Serbs
4 had been persecuted over the centuries." Did you ever respond to
5 complaints made by UN officers that civilian areas were being shelled by
6 giving the complainer a history lesson from the Bosnian Serb perspective?
7 Did you ever do that?
8 A. I'm sure that I spoke about the history of the Serb people, but I
9 never linked their history with the answer concerning possible combat
11 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you linked it not only with possible
12 combat operations, but with allegations that civilians were deliberately
13 or indiscriminately targeted. What do you say to that?
14 A. I claim that I didn't.
15 Q. He said that in the first period, that he raised these complaints
16 with you, that he made these protests, you would sometimes deny it was
17 happening or suggest that the observers were mistaken in what they saw, or
18 that it was the fault of an uncontrollable element. Let me take those
19 separately. By way of response to protests that civilians were being
20 deliberately or indiscriminately targeted, did you ever sometimes deny it
21 was happening?
22 A. I never received any protest about deliberate or indiscriminate
23 targeting of civilians.
24 Q. I'm not suggesting you received it in those words. I'm suggesting
25 to you that on numerous occasions, Major Henneberry complained to your
1 face --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Witness, may I ask you not to seek eye contact
3 with the other party when you are examined by Mr. Ierace. It was not the
4 first time. This happened before several times. Would you refrain from
5 doing that.
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. I'm not suggesting that the complaint was in those words, but I
8 think you understand me that complaints were made to you that civilians
9 were being deliberately or indiscriminately targeted. Sometimes you would
10 deny that was happening. You did that, didn't you, sometimes?
11 A. No one ever complained to me about any deliberate or
12 indiscriminate targeting of civilians.
13 Q. All right. To be clear, so we understand your evidence, you're
14 saying, are you, between September 1992 and August 1994, no one ever
15 complained to you about any deliberate or indiscriminate targeting of
16 civilians? Is that correct? Is that your evidence?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And your office was on the opposite side of the corridor to the
19 UNMOs' headquarters. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you were on duty or available as they were 24 hours a day. Is
22 that correct? When you were in the headquarters?
23 A. The liaison group for UNPROFOR was available around the clock.
24 Q. Yes. Now, Major Henneberry said that he got to know you quite
25 well, that in fact the two of you developed a rapport. Did that happen
1 between you and Major Henneberry?
2 A. I do not doubt that Mr. Henneberry could have stated something to
3 that effect. However, I remind you that I stated yesterday that I had met
4 over 1.000 UN officers. I don't know what kind of rapport we had because
5 I simply cannot remember it.
6 Q. So Mr. Indjic, you're telling us that maybe you did, maybe you had
7 a rapport with Major Henneberry, but if you did, you don't remember it.
8 Is that your evidence?
9 A. If Mr. Henneberry was the commander of the Lukavica HQ Lima post,
10 then I'm sure we had regular contacts. However, I claim here that I
11 didn't establish any profound rapport, any more significant relationship
12 with anyone over there including Major Henneberry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Is that a convenient time, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until 11.00, but before doing so,
16 I inform Mr. Piletta-Zanin that when he has difficulties in finding the
17 sources, he should be aware that there is a slight difference in paging
18 between the LiveNote that you find on your desk and the sources Mr. Ierace
19 gave. Yes, I just tried to understand the gesture you just made,
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could assist as well, if my
22 learned colleague is using LiveNote, there are many different spellings of
23 the witness's name.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm aware of that. You can find for Indjic
25 I-N-D-I-C or I-N-D-J-I-C. There are several ways of spelling. If you use
1 both of them, there's a better opportunity to find it. For example, page
2 9837 on the written version is 9833 in the LiveNote version. And if you
3 have had, although I didn't hear you, if you have had any problem in
4 finding the source on which Mr. Ierace seemed to rely during his last
5 questions, it's 8574 in the LiveNote version.
6 We'll adjourn until 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before the witness is brought in --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: -- Might I clarify how much time I have remaining.
12 If I was permitted to go for as long as I require, that would probably be
13 some hours. But I think I've probably have less than two hours left,
14 if --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we certainly have. We want to finish by today.
16 The Defence claimed four hours, took more than four hours. I think until
17 now the Defence took approximately four and a half hours. But I have to
18 check that precisely. I think until now, yesterday it was -- let me just
19 see. We have 1 hour and 37 approximately. And 1 hour 17 today. That
20 would make two hours and 50 approximately, so the remaining time
21 approximately one hour and a half, one and three quarters of an hour
23 MR. IERACE: And Mr. President, will I be required to stay within
24 that time according to the normal rules with this witness?
25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see how it develops, Mr. Ierace. But let's
1 keep in mind -- if it would be of any guidance, whether a table leaves an
2 impression that some people have been eating there, even if the witness
3 would deny that, that would not make a great difference I would say. And
4 if sometimes we hear questions that the Chamber thinks of that perhaps
5 were not strictly necessary, so you would please keep that in mind. And
6 then we'll see where we come. We would have after the next break, we
7 would have a little bit over one hour. We'll then -- yes, that's -- we
8 would like you to stay within these time limits.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, also might I take advantage of this
10 break to point out that we still have not received the updated witness
11 list for next week, and now it is, of course, Friday. And I think that
12 should have been delivered on Monday, last Monday.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Why is it not delivered, Ms. Pilipovic?
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know, the
17 Prosecution was provided with a letter with the schedule for witnesses for
18 next week. I don't have the letter here at the moment. I'm surprised to
19 hear my colleague put this question now. I'll try and find it, and I'll
20 try and inform you of it at the next break so as not to waste any time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's not waste time at this very moment. And
22 there seems to be a problem anyhow with the arrival of witnesses and the
23 Victims and Witnesses Unit would like to speak about that. But we should
24 not deal with that at this moment in Court. But I'm just made aware of --
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I've just discussed this matter,
1 and I think we agreed on everything during the break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether there's an agreement on
3 everything. But we'll find out that later.
4 The witness may be brought in to the courtroom.
5 Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Mr. Indjic, Major Henneberry gave evidence that your explanations
8 changed, that is, your explanations in response to his protests as to the
9 deliberate killing of civilians. His evidence was that after you
10 developed a rapport with him, you admitted to Major Henneberry that you
11 knew civilians were being shelled and were dying, and that you believed it
12 was wrong, but it simply was going to continue. What do you say to that?
13 A. The statement in the last two lines is not a statement that I ever
15 Q. See, I'm suggesting to you that you became unusually friendly with
16 Major Henneberry, and you became indiscreet, you became very candid with
17 him. What do you say to that?
18 A. I was candid in relation to all members of the UNPROFOR. There
19 was no reason for me to behave in another way. But what is certain is
20 that I never became friends with Major Henneberry.
21 Q. We have heard evidence that you told Major Henneberry that the
22 ultimate goal was to either destroy the city or rid it of Muslims. What
23 do you say to that?
24 A. It's completely false.
25 Q. You Indjicated to Major Henneberry that in spite of your awareness
1 of the wrongdoings of the SRK, you intended to stay, and you were looking
2 forward to senior appointments and promotion within the corps. Were you
3 looking forward, as of January and February 1993, to senior appointments
4 and promotion within the corps?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you think that you were an ambitious officer in early 1993 in
7 terms of your own career?
8 A. From the very beginning of my career, I was an ambitious officer
9 in realistic terms.
10 Q. At one stage, were you the private secretary to the minister of
11 defence of RS?
12 A. No, I wasn't.
13 Q. Was General Milovanovic ever the minister of defence?
14 A. Not as far as I can remember. In the -- during the relevant
15 period, but during the post-war period, yes, he was.
16 Q. And when he was minister of defence, did you work for him?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President,
18 we're speaking about the post-war period. This is not just after the
19 relevant period, but this is after all the events that we might be
20 interested in.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't think that Mr. Ierace seeks to
22 establish a fact directly contained in the Indjictment, but he is pursuing
23 other purposes with this line of questioning. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
24 The objection is denied.
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. When he was minister of Defence, did you work for him?
2 A. While General Milovanovic was minister of defence, I was a member
3 of the intelligence department of the Republika Srpska army, so I didn't
4 have any form of direct contact with General Milovanovic.
5 Q. When did he cease to be the minister of defence?
6 A. When the previous allocations came to an end, when Mr. Bilic was
7 assigned as minister of defence. I can't remember when the elections were
8 held exactly. I cannot remember the year.
9 Q. Sir, you tell us you cannot remember the year in which he ceased
10 to be the minister of defence.
11 A. I can't remember the year when the elections were held and when
12 Mr. Bilic was assigned as minister of defence.
13 Q. Are you referring to the last elections in Republika Srpska?
14 A. I'm talking about the elections before the -- the penultimate
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I no longer see
17 what the relevance is. I don't see where we are heading.
18 MR. IERACE: I don't intend to ask any more questions on that
19 issue, for the moment, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, then, Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Major Henneberry has given evidence that you told him words to the
23 effect that your attitude was that the killing -- the deliberate killing
24 of civilians was the corps [Realtime transcript read in error "core"]
25 plan, it was a necessary evil. Was it part of a corps plan that civilians
1 be deliberately targeted?
2 A. I don't know about any kind of corps plan. And as a result, I
3 don't know about a part of a corps plan either.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise,
5 but we have a translation problem. I don't know if Mr. Ierace used the
6 "core" or "corps". I think it should be clear in the transcript.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I -- we have heard some potential problems
8 with the word core which could be written corps and core. Could the B/C/S
9 booth just tell me how they understood the last question -- the last
10 answer about a "core plan." What was the witness referring to what I know
11 by now to be the corps more or less or to the --
12 THE INTERPRETER: No, you don't, Mr. President. I have changed
13 the channel. And the B/C/S booth understood it as a corps plan,
15 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulties in finding the answer from
16 the B/C/S booth.
17 Yes. Yes. Yes. And that's how you translated it? Yes.
18 I do understand, Mr. Ierace, that you asked for a corps plan.
19 That's how it was said. It was not right in the transcript.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you were the only one who would have known about how it
21 was translated to the witness. I think everyone understood it in a
22 similar way. A tiny little yellow note would have done. Please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I've --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 18739 to 18752.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I was listening to
2 the French and English channels, and I can't --
3 JUDGE ORIE: You could have got the attention in both languages.
4 A yellow note doesn't prevent you from asking the attention both in
5 English and in French. There's no misunderstanding in whatever way.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. IERACE:
8 Q. Mr. Indjic, did you...
9 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that everyone was understanding and
10 responding as to the corps as far as I understand. Please proceed,
11 Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE:
13 Q. Mr. Indjic, did you sometimes have a drink, an alcoholic drink,
14 with UNMOs?
15 A. It's customary for us to offer guests a drink, so I certainly did
16 have a few drinks with military observers.
17 Q. Did you ever drink to excess with UNMOs?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever become drunk with UNMOs?
20 A. No. Not with UNMOs or with anyone else.
21 Q. You've told us indeed that you were on duty or on call 24 hours a
22 day. Did you ever become drunk whilst in the headquarters at Lukavica in
23 the relevant period?
24 A. I've never been drunk, neither in the Lukavica command or in the
25 course of my private life.
1 Q. I suggest to you that the admissions, the statements, which
2 according to Major Henneberry were made by you to the effect that it was
3 wrong to target civilians, but it happened, it was part of a corps plan,
4 words to that effect, were made by you sometimes when you had been
5 drinking and sometimes when you were not drinking. Do you understand what
6 I'm putting to you?
7 A. I don't understand.
8 Q. I'm suggesting that the words attributed to you by
9 Major Henneberry, according to him, were uttered by you on a number of
10 occasions, sometimes when you were drinking alcohol with him and sometimes
11 when you were not. Do you understand?
12 A. I understand, but as I have already said, I never said anything of
13 the kind to Major Henneberry regardless of whether there was drinking or
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might we move into private session. I
16 think this would be for about 15 minutes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll move into private session.
18 [Private session]
12 Pages 18755 to 18761 – redacted – private session
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We are.
17 MR. IERACE:
18 Q. Mr. Indjic, you told us you received training in intelligence
19 before the war, and you've told us that you worked in intelligence at some
20 point after the war. Did you work as an intelligence officer during the
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you in Belgrade at any point in 1992? From January 1992
24 until December 1992?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was that at the beginning of 1992?
2 A. Probably.
3 Q. And indeed, were you stationed within the JNA in Belgrade at the
4 beginning of 1992?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Were you stationed in Belgrade in 1991?
7 A. There must have been a misunderstanding. I was in Belgrade on
8 private business, and my duty and the positions were where I held is
9 something that I discussed on the first day. I was on duty in Rajlovac
10 and Sarajevo, that is, I spent the entire time of my tour of duty in
11 Sarajevo except when I was on training. I was never on duty in Belgrade.
12 Q. All right. The cover of a liaison officer with UN -- I withdraw
13 that. The position of liaison officer with the UN in its various forms,
14 both military and in terms of humanitarian aid, would have been convenient
15 for an intelligence officer seeking to obtain information and general
16 intelligence as to what the UN knew. Do you agree with that?
17 A. I don't understand your question.
18 Q. I'm suggesting to you, whether it was true or not, that your job
19 was an ideal cover for an intelligence officer in the relevant period.
20 A. No, there are many more covers that are actually better.
21 Q. Your job involved contact with dozens if not hundreds of UN
22 officers, didn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That alone made it an ideal cover, didn't it? You didn't need an
25 excuse to talk to people.
1 A. For the purposes of understanding, the mission of the UN was
2 completely open, and they did not have any secrets which would have
3 required intelligence work.
4 Q. Do you remember Commandant John Hamill, UNMO at Lima 5, and then
5 team leader at Lima 8, in Sarajevo between May and August 1993?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a
7 problem in interpretation. I'm now following the B/C/S interpretation,
8 and I heard Lima -- they said Lima 10, which is not correct. In the
9 transcript, we read Lima 8. So I think it has been translated as Lima 10
10 instead of Lima 8.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question was about Lima 8, Mr. Ierace.
12 Mr. Indjic, please understand, the question that's referring to
13 Lima 5 and then team leader of Lima 8. Please proceed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was an Irish officer,
15 though I don't think I could recognise him if I saw him in the street now.
16 MR. IERACE:
17 Q. After those positions at Lima 5 and Lima 8, he worked in the
18 Lukavica headquarters or Lukavica barracks as it was sometimes known. Do
19 you remember him from working in the room opposite you at the
21 A. I don't rule out that possibility. However, I cannot claim with
22 any certainty that that was the case. As far as I'm concerned, he was
23 just one of the observers.
24 Q. We've heard evidence that Commandant Hamill would discuss with the
25 liaison officer cease-fires or request cessation of shelling, and he would
1 do that after he was informed from UNMO headquarters inside the city that
2 a particular area was being sniped and shelled. He would do that with the
3 liaison office by walking to the liaison office which was directly across
4 the hallway from his office. Do you recollect such conversations with
5 Commandant Hamill, conversations on those topics between May and August
7 A. This was a customary way of forwarding protests. I cannot claim
8 with certainty that it was a conversation with Mr. Hamill. But for the
9 purposes of better understanding, let us be clear about the period. From
10 May 1993 until August 1993 was a very difficult period for myself
11 privately. My mother was dying. When I came back from Belgrade, I saw
12 her. I met her. I waited for her because she had come from abroad. And
13 she died soon. And I buried her sometime in late July.
14 Q. All right. Indeed Commandant Hamill has told us that if he could
15 not speak to you, in those circumstances he would speak to
16 Captain Luledzija. And I think you've told us that there was another
17 liaison officer of that name who spoke English. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. We've heard that when he complained to the liaison officer, the
20 liaison officer would ring the brigade in question and would request them
21 to cease firing. Did you ever do that?
22 A. No, because we did not have any competence in terms of command
23 with respect of the brigades. By calling a brigade, we were able to
24 obtain information as to whether there was any combat activity in the area
25 of responsibility of the brigade.
1 Q. All right. Did you call a brigade sometimes to find out if there
2 was any combat activity in the area?
3 A. I personally never did that, because I did not want to interfere
4 with the command and control system.
5 Q. Indeed, if you had done that, it would be quite contrary to the
6 procedure that you told us yesterday, wouldn't it, the regular procedure?
7 A. It would have constituted an interference with the control and
8 command system.
9 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that's what you did do, just that.
10 A. No.
11 Q. I suggest that you're being a little modest about the power that
12 you had, that your power went beyond what you have described to us, and
13 that power included the power to contact brigades directly rather than go
14 through the duty operations officer. What do you say to that?
15 A. This is just your opinion, and it is erroneous.
16 Q. Commandant Hamill has given evidence that the liaison officer
17 would sometimes make the call to the brigade in front of him. He would
18 actually ring the brigade in front of him, or request the person on the
19 switchboard to ring the brigade and speak to somebody in the brigade. Was
20 that you?
21 A. This just confirms the inaccuracy of the testimony by Mr. Hamill
22 because there was no possibility from our office to contact any kind of
24 Q. So if you rang the brigade from your office, you would ring direct
25 from your phone. Is that the position, if you did that?
1 A. If I did that, then it would be directly.
2 Q. Was there a switchboard somewhere in the headquarters in the
3 relevant period?
4 A. Yes, in the operations room.
5 Q. Could you contact that switchboard from your phone?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I see. If the UNMOs wanted, could they contact the switchboard
8 from their office?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Commandant Hamill said, as I've mentioned earlier, if you were
11 there, they would speak to you; if not, it would be Captain Luledzija.
12 And if they received information, that is, the UNMOs received information
13 that shelling was going on in a particular area, perhaps an area monitored
14 by one of the Papa observation posts, they would go to your office and say
15 "there is shelling going on in that area. What's happening? It must be
16 stopped. And at that stage, they would often know already that it was
17 happening naturally, because they were the corps headquarters, or if they
18 didn't know it was because they had -- perhaps you might say it was an
19 independent activity going on. Generally they were aware of what was
20 going on, and had a prepared answer, if you will, if they didn't wish to
21 stop the shelling or shooting. Or sometimes they did anyway, they stopped
22 it or caused it to be stopped."
23 Do you agree as to that explanation of responses by you or your
24 fellow liaison officer in that office to protests? That sometimes in
25 particular you would have prepared answers?
1 A. The testimony of Mr. Hamill is an approximation and not a
2 professional -- not a reflection of a professional attitude. As to the
3 questions of military observers, one would have to be a wizard to be
4 prepare answers in advance. Of course, if there was combat activity, we
5 would use our communication services and we would have the information on
6 this combat activity before we would receive it from the military
8 Q. Mr. Indjic, one scenario in which you might have advance warning in
9 let's say a shelling of the city, of course, is if Lukavica headquarters
10 was either aware in advance or had ordered it and armed you with an
11 appropriate response to the inevitable protest. Do you agree with that?
12 A. I don't because the SRK carried out defensive operations and
13 returned fire only when it had been fired upon. And one could never know
14 when the other side would open fire.
15 Q. Yes. According to your explanation of how it all worked, what
16 Commandant Hamill described could not have happened. Is that correct?
17 A. If you can tell me specifically what you are referring to, you
18 said a number of things that were said by Mr. Hamill.
19 Q. I appreciate that. I'm referring specifically to the suggestion
20 that you would have prepared answers, that is, the officers in the liaison
21 office opposite the UNMO office, they were aware of what was going on and
22 had a prepared answer if they didn't wish to stop the shelling or
23 shooting. That's what I'm specifically referring to. On your account of
24 how it worked, that description could not have happened. Correct?
25 A. Correct, no, something like that was not possible.
1 Q. Do you remember Commandant Jacques Kolp, K-O-L-P, UNPROFOR liaison
2 officer between March 1993 and November 1994?
3 A. I think we're now talking about a Belgian officer, if my memory
4 serves me right, although I'm not sure if I would be able to recognise him
5 if I were to see him now.
6 Q. We've heard evidence that he would meet with you practically every
7 day, and the main issue that he discussed with you was clearance for
8 various convoys. Does that assist you with your recollection?
9 A. In all likelihood, that was the case because all permissions for
10 convoy movement, that is, all such requests, came -- excuse me, all
11 permissions reached the liaison group for UNPROFOR before the office at
12 Pale was established.
13 Q. Can you remind us what month that was, when they were no longer
14 referred to Lukavica and were referred to Pale, what month and what year?
15 A. I said that this was somewhere in the beginning of 1993. As for
16 Lukavica, they sent their requests to Pale. However, the clearances
17 arrived in Lukavica because it was at the level of the corps command that
18 it was necessary to order the local checkpoints, what to do, and to inform
19 them of the fact that the convoy had been permitted.
20 Q. All right. Now, again to assist you with your recollection, he
21 was Belgian. He formed a view that you were a direct associate of the
22 commander of the Serbian army corps, as he described it, General Mladic.
23 Can you think of anything which would have given him that impression?
24 A. Well, he probably found it impressive to think about people at the
25 top. I don't know what sort of things go on in the mind of a person who
1 makes such crazy assumptions.
2 Q. He said that his initial contact with the liaison office was in
3 the PTT building, but he could never obtain an answer from that office
4 because those Bosnian Serb liaison officers would say they had to contact
5 you in Lukavica. Would you expect that?
6 A. Naturally, he couldn't receive an answer in Lukavica either until
7 that answer was received from the main staff.
8 Q. But you see, his evidence wasn't that they told him they had to
9 contact Colonel Zarkovic, but you.
10 A. We have already agreed that Colonel Zarkovic at the beginning of
11 1993 was appointed as minister of defence. That's natural, because I
12 didn't deny that I performed the duties of chief during that period.
13 Q. I'm sorry, I thought you said it was from mid-1993, not the
14 beginning of 1993. When was it that Colonel Zarkovic left the
15 headquarters and went to the Ministry of Defence?
16 A. It was in the first half of 1993.
17 Q. I suggest to you it was May. What do you say to that?
18 A. I can neither confirm nor deny that. It's possible.
19 Q. In any event, Major Kolp, Commandant Kolp made clear that he
20 received these replies from the office in the PTT very early in his period
21 and he started in March 1993 and as a result of those responses, he
22 stopped going to them and instead would travel to Lukavica. Sir, if
23 Colonel Zarkovic was still in the position of your boss at the time that
24 Commandant Kolp was being told by the PTT office that they had to speak to
25 you, do you accept that that suggests that in their minds, the liaison
1 officers in the PTT, you were the person, not Colonel Zarkovic, that they
2 felt they had to obtain decisions from?
3 A. I don't accept that. Perhaps they told him to contact me as they
4 knew that Colonel Zarkovic didn't speak English.
5 Q. Commandant Kolp -- I'm sorry. Just in relation to that answer,
6 Commandant Kolp's evidence wasn't that they told him to contact you, but
7 rather they had to contact you in order to obtain an answer to give him.
8 It had nothing to do with the speaking of English.
9 A. I really can't answer the question as to what Major Kolp and the
10 liaison officer in the PTT spoke about if I didn't attend it.
11 Q. All right. Now, he said, the evidence was, that having made the
12 decision to go straight to Lukavica rather than waste time at the PTT, he
13 would have contact with you. Indeed, as I've Indjicated earlier, he would
14 meet you practically every day. And in your office, he would see all
15 kinds of people with problems, UNMOs, members of international
16 organisations. Firstly, is that possible? I think you would agree that
17 UNMOs would be in your office. What about members of international
19 A. As I already said, it's correct to say that I had contact with
20 over a thousand members of the United Nations, and that includes UNPROFOR
21 and the military observers and the UNHCR and the international committee
22 of the Red Cross, and various volunteer organisations such as Caritas,
23 nongovernmental organisations, and et cetera, et cetera.
24 Q. And did that include organisations providing medical assistance to
25 Serb civilians, Bosnian Serb civilians?
1 A. Probably.
2 Q. Do you remember an agency called the Emergency Medical Response
3 Agency, represented by John Ashton?
4 A. I remember an agency that was -- had that name. I had a visit
5 card, and I knew that its headquarters were in Berlin. I don't think it
6 really existed. There was a story according to which John Ashton was a
7 CIA member.
8 Q. We'll come back to that. In the meantime, Commandant Kolp said he
9 also saw Serbian paramilitaries in your office. What do you say to that?
10 A. Could you say who in particular?
11 Q. No, I can't give you any names. But his evidence was that Serbian
12 paramilitaries dressed partially in civilian clothes, wore military
13 trousers and coats, and black caps with human skulls on them. Does that
14 assist you in identifying who he might be speaking about? Also, they had
15 long hair and beards.
16 A. If these characteristics of these people is proof in your opinion
17 that this concerns a paramilitary unit, I don't agree with that. The
18 Chetnik detachment on Grbavica was a legal unit, and it was part of the
19 SRK, or rather of the 1st Brigade.
20 Q. Well, I take it that the description that I've just provided you
21 fits members of that unit. Is that correct? The Chetnik detachment?
22 A. Yes, but it wasn't a paramilitary unit.
23 Q. I see. He said that -- excuse me. He said that he saw them in
24 your office on three or four occasions between April, May 1993 and early
25 1994. Does that fit timewise?
1 A. I don't think that's correct. He should have seen them far more
3 Q. All right. And he said he saw some of the same people on more
4 than one occasion, and people similarly dressed in the Hadzici area on the
5 Sarajevo/Pale Road. Given what you've told us about the Chetnik
6 detachment at Grbavica, would you agree with me it would be unsurprising
7 if he saw some of those same people on the Sarajevo/Pale Road?
8 A. I don't see why that should be surprising. It wouldn't be
10 Q. I agree with you. Now, why were they in your office, you, the
11 liaison officer, with the UN?
12 A. Tons of civilians came and members of the military came to my
13 office, and they took advantage of the opportunity to telephone members of
14 their family who were in the Muslim territory because the only telephone
15 line in the area of Serbian Sarajevo which was connected to the part of
16 town which was under Muslim control, the only phone that could be used to
17 establish such contact was in my office.
18 Q. Did your phone go through the switch? You've told us that you
19 could contact the switch. Did it go through the switch?
20 A. I said I couldn't contact the switchboard, and this phone didn't
21 go through the switch. It went through the Sarajevo airport to the PTT
22 building, and it was part of the regular civilian telephone network.
23 Q. I apologise for that. I stand corrected if I misrepresented to
24 you your earlier evidence. So, are you saying that your office was used
25 by various people to contact relatives in Sarajevo, including soldiers
1 from the front line? Would that be a fair comment on your evidence?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Therefore, you, for that reason alone, had contact with soldiers
4 from the front line. Is that correct?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did not those individuals move freely around the Lukavica
7 headquarters unescorted, carrying their weapons?
8 A. These people were members of the Republika Srpska army, and I
9 don't see why they shouldn't move freely through the Lukavica command.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to
11 this question because the witness replied by mentioning and including
12 civilians and members of the military, and as the question has been put by
13 Mr. Ierace, it creates confusion.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The question has been answered. From the answer, it
15 does not appear that it created great confusion.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
18 Q. Commandant Kolp gave evidence that police on checkpoints would
19 have to repeat -- would have to report to you from time to time in terms
20 of convoys, and he named as one such individual Colonel Zdravko Zgonjanin.
21 Would you expect -- I'll withdraw that. Would that be the case, perhaps
22 in the relation to the passage of convoys, that they would contact you?
23 A. That's correct, because the checkpoints would receive
24 authorisation through the corps command. And a copy of what had been
25 authorised and what hadn't was located in the group for cooperating with
1 UNPROFOR. And if a convoy appeared for which authorisation had not
2 already been provided, we would then check to see whether there was an
3 authorisation for this convoy or not.
4 Q. All right. Commandant Kolp has also said that he lodged
5 complaints, protests, about incidents occurring in Nedzarici and the
6 Grbavica areas, as well as from the Jewish cemetery. Firstly, do you
7 remember any such protests? And that's, I should say, in relation to the
8 targeting of civilians.
9 A. I don't know how many times I've already repeated this. I never
10 received a protest in which targeting civilians was explicitly mentioned.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with regard to
12 the previous question, in fact, the two previous questions, and as far as
13 the convoy issue is concerned, Mr. Ierace withdrew something, he rephrased
14 his question, but I don't see what the word is that he wanted to Indjicate
15 in the transcript. This is important for the re-examination that we might
16 conduct. We have in the transcript the sign which Indjicates the absence
17 of something, and then "of convoys."
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to find exactly -- that's page 63,
19 line 12 -- yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It seems it's page 63, line 11
21 and 12. My transcript is not quite working.
22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. It was something to the effect
23 of in the case of convoys. And I appreciate my learned colleague is
24 asking from the point of view of re-examination, not the understanding of
25 the witness. The witness clearly understood the question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then having explained this, please proceed.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Now Commandant Kolp --
4 MR. IERACE: Sorry, excuse me.
5 Q. In relation to the Jewish cemetery, are you aware of General Rose
6 visiting the Jewish cemetery on one occasion to inspect it?
7 A. I think I can remember that. I remember it in particular because
8 I don't think he wanted to wear a flak jacket.
9 Q. Approximately when was that? Was it around March 1994 perhaps?
10 A. All I can remember is that there was no snow.
11 Q. All right. And did you understand that the reason that he took
12 the trouble to do that was because it was a notorious area in terms of
13 protests about sniping of civilians in Sarajevo?
14 A. No, that's absolutely false. That was an area where the
15 demarcation line was the narrowest. The positions were only separated by
16 a few metres, the positions of the warring factions. General Rose visited
17 those lines in order to display, to show, that certain steps had been
18 taken to obtain a truce in that area.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. That's my opinion.
21 Q. Now, Commandant Kolp gave evidence that once when he was in your
22 office, you issued an order regarding shooting. What do you say to that?
23 A. I think that's rubbish. It's a lie. And I couldn't have issued
24 such an order, and I never did issue such an order. And I'm not aware of
25 the fact that Major Kolp speaks the Serbian language.
1 Q. Yes, we heard evidence that it was interpreted to him through his
2 interpreter. So you understand that more than one UNMO has given evidence
3 that you had direct contact with the armed forces, with the troops. You
4 continue to deny that you did, in terms of protests, responding to
6 A. I'm claiming that I didn't have any contact with subordinate units
7 in accordance with the command and control system. And that I was not in
8 a position to issue subordinate units orders of any kind.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the witness seems to be very consistent
10 in where he denies allegations made by you. I don't know whether it's
11 really necessary if you are under time restraint to seek such answers to
12 be repeated three, four, five, six or even more times. Please proceed.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that being the case, if you don't
14 require me to do it, then I won't continue to take the witness through the
15 other evidence of various witnesses which touches on --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you can ask it -- I think the witness in
17 respect of at least now a few, Mr. Hamill, Mr. Henneberry, Mr. Kolp,
18 consistently told us that he never gave -- never had direct contacts with
19 brigades, that he never gave orders, what he explained what his position
20 was. I do not expect that the witness would answer in a different way if
21 you would confront him with similar information given by other Prosecution
22 witnesses. So therefore, I take it, but if it's not true, Mr. Indjic,
23 please tell us. I take it that all the questions asked to you about your
24 functions, about your -- the powers you had, the way your group received
25 protests or did not receive certain protests as far as you know, if you
1 would be asked about the other witnesses giving similar information,
2 although not always exactly the same, that that would not change any of
3 your answers given until now. Is that a correct understanding?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All my answers would have to do with
5 my personal competence, responsibility, and that of other groups for
6 liaising -- the other members of the group for liaising with UNPROFOR.
7 All the answers that I would provide with respect to this matter would be
8 the same.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that being the case, then - and I'm
11 referring to the first part of what you just said - I will refrain from
12 confronting the witness in the way in which I have been doing, confronting
13 the witness with the evidence which supports the Prosecution case that has
14 been given in respect of this witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: At least in respect of those issues that have been
16 dealt with by the other testimonies. Of course, if you would have
17 anything else in mind... But until now, your questions mainly
18 concentrated on how protests were received, through whom, about the
19 content of these protests, about what action was taken in respect of that.
20 I mean, that whole series of questions I think we went through it now, of
21 course in slightly -- with a slight variety as to the exact content of the
22 testimony you have confronted the witness with.
23 MR. IERACE: I think I understand.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So I don't think it's of great use to repeat it for
25 other sources.
1 MR. IERACE: All right.
2 Q. Do you recall the chief of staff of UNPROFOR, General Van Baal?
3 He occupied that position from February to September 1994.
4 A. I remember General Van Baal.
5 Q. And do you recall him conveying protests to you, protests
6 concerning the sniping of civilians in Sarajevo?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, just to make sure, the witness has
9 testified now, I think, five or six times that he never, ever received any
10 protests on deliberate sniping or deliberate targeting of civilians. So
11 this would, in my view, be one of the questions that might not have been
12 necessary. And the witness confirms again that also from
13 General Van Baal, he did not receive such protests.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the next question I'm about to put to
15 the witness comes out of the one I just put. And I would be grateful for
16 your guidance whether you wish to hear questions such as the one I'm about
17 to ask.
18 Q. Did you respond to General Van Baal we don't have the snipers
19 under our control? Given your earlier answer, did you ever say those
20 words to General Van Baal, "we don't have the snipers under our control"?
21 A. No, I couldn't have answered in such a way.
22 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned earlier in response to the name
23 John Ashton that you had some information involving the CIA. What was
25 A. In my opinion, John Ashton is a CIA agent.
1 Q. What do you base that on?
2 A. My personal impression, my opinion on the basis of my personal
3 experience in intelligence work.
4 Q. When did you first form that opinion?
5 A. After the second or third time that I met him.
6 Q. What month and what year was that?
7 A. I don't know the month. I think it was in the summer of 1992.
8 Q. The summer of 1992, you've told us that you weren't working in
9 intelligence during the relevant period. Did you communicate this opinion
10 to the intelligence section of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I take it you told General Galic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Why not?
15 A. General Galic never had any contact with John Ashton, as far as I
16 know. Neither was this requested.
17 Q. All right. Did you receive any instructions from anyone on how to
18 handle John Ashton, that is, given your opinion that he worked or was
19 involved with the CIA?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I take it that you took all possible steps to ensure that he did
22 not travel on SRK territory, given your view. Would that be correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Why not?
25 A. Because he wasn't the only intelligence officer in the Sarajevo
1 area, and it would be absurd to forbid someone to move around for the
2 simple reason that that person was in intelligence.
3 Q. Do you mean by that that although you formed the view that he was
4 employed by the CIA, you also formed the view that he was not adverse to
5 the interests of the Bosnian Serbs?
6 A. As far as I know, we weren't at war with America. And for that
7 reason, CIA intelligence officer isn't the enemy of Bosnian Serbs. He
8 wasn't an intelligence officer of the AID.
9 Q. What specifically was it that led you to the opinion that he was a
10 CIA intelligence officer?
11 A. His performance, his way of working in the field, he had far more
12 authority -- more authority than he was prepared to admit as a
13 photographer, et cetera.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Indjic, can you please be more specific. Going through
15 those aspects one at a time, what do you mean by his performance?
16 A. He appeared in the Sarajevo area, and his cover story was that he
17 a freelance photographer. And I think that as a freelance photographer,
18 he had visited all the battlefields throughout the world.
19 Q. I think there were many freelance photographers, were there not,
20 who came to Sarajevo from a background of working in other conflicts? Why
21 did you single him out differently from those?
22 A. At the beginning, I said that this was my opinion, and this was
23 the impression that I had, I thought he was a CIA agent. But I don't have
24 any documents about this. I'm talking about my personal opinion and the
25 impression I had with regard to John Ashton.
1 Q. The next factor you mentioned was his way of working in the field.
2 Can you offer any specific explanation in relation to that?
3 A. His approach, the way he dealt with people, his interest in
4 specific issues. All these factors contributed to my general opinion of
5 him, but I would like to repeat that this is my personal opinion about
6 John Ashton.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, it's 25 minutes to 1.00. You're almost
8 through your time. We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00. And then I'd
9 like you to conclude within 10 minutes.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace. Once the witness has been brought in.
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, would you allow me a minute, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Mr. Indjic, we've heard evidence that typically, you would not wear
18 a military uniform when you carried out your duties at Lukavica
19 headquarters, that quite often, you would wear civilian clothes, in
20 particular, a leather jacket. Do you agree with that?
21 A. I usually wear civilian clothes, and I wore a leather jacket
22 because that was the only piece of clothing that I had to put on top of a
24 Q. We've heard evidence that it was unusual, in other words, that
25 your civilian dress contrasted to the dress of your fellow officers in the
1 headquarters. Do you agree that other officers in Lukavica headquarters
2 did not wear civilian clothes?
3 A. All members of the group for liaising with UNPROFOR, with the
4 exception of Colonel Zarkovic, would wear civilian clothes from time to
6 Q. Why was that?
7 A. We were never requested to wear such uniform except at the
8 meetings -- well, they probably thought that a more -- a closer contact
9 could be established if we wore civilian clothes. I mean, I don't see any
10 particular reason for either wearing civilian clothes or not wearing
11 civilian clothes. Perhaps the reason was because officially, we
12 never -- we didn't carry weapons.
13 Q. We've heard evidence that at high-level meetings with the UN, that
14 is, meetings between such persons and General Galic, that you would attend
15 in civilian clothes and it seemed entirely inappropriate. What would you
16 say about that? If I could be more specific, that it Indjicated a
17 considerable degree of power on your part that you didn't have to wear a
19 A. I cannot see what kind of power can be demonstrated with a
20 particular type of clothes. As far as all meetings with UNPROFOR that
21 were held at the Sarajevo airport, I'm referring to the mixed group
22 meetings, I always attended such meetings in uniform.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown a document,
24 it's P3777. It's a document which was on the Defence exhibit list for
25 this witness. And I ask that the B/C/S version be placed on the ELMO.
1 Q. Mr. Indjic, when you're handed the document, just look at the first
2 page which is in B/C/S. Don't look at the other pages yet.
3 MR. IERACE: After the witness has looked at it, perhaps it could
4 be placed on the ELMO.
5 Q. Do you recognise this document? In other words, have you seen it
7 A. I recognise the form of the document. However, I have never seen
8 this particular document.
9 Q. Do you see at the bottom -- I withdraw that.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the witness can
11 place the document on the ELMO, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that General Galic can also see it. Perhaps
13 it could be zoomed in a bit, and especially those parts attention is drawn
14 to that they are zoomed in.
15 MR. IERACE:
16 Q. Do you recognise the form of the document? Does it appear to be
17 an order from General Galic?
18 A. This is an order signed by the then chief of staff,
19 Colonel Marcetic who signed the order for General Galic.
20 Q. Would you please slowly read in B/C/S the words which appear in
21 the first paragraph.
22 A. "Despite numerous warnings on the 29th of January, 1993, in a
23 greater area of 906 grid reference, an event occurred comparable to the
24 one that had happened in Lapisnice when the Poturice took possession of
25 Mala Kula, thereby creating conditions to endanger the vital communication
1 route Hresa/Radava/Vogosca by taking position of Poljine hill, grid
2 reference 703."
3 Q. Is it addressed to the commander personally of the 1st Romanija
4 Brigade of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
5 A. Yes, it is addressed to the commander of the 1st Romanija Brigade.
6 Q. Does it order the commander on that day and the following day,
7 amongst other things, to carry out an attack to retrieve the Mala Kula in
8 the region of elevation 906 from the enemy forces?
9 A. Yes, an attack is being ordered with a purpose of taking back
10 possession of Mala Kula and also taking possession of the previous
12 Q. All right. Did that attack succeed?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Would you please come back to the first paragraph. You read out
15 the word "Poturice." What is a literal translation of that word into
17 A. Converts.
18 Q. Converts. And did you understand that to refer to Bosniaks?
19 A. This refers to Bosnian Muslims.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I remind you the time I granted you.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think I'll only be a another few
22 minutes or few questions if that's convenient.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's not very convenient. Because I said not more
24 than ten minutes. And you take a few more minutes, it would leave
25 insufficient time for the Defence to re-examine and the Judges to examine
1 the witness. So one or two questions and not more.
2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that is a derogatory term. Do you agree or
5 A. At any rate, it is a customary term which does carry a certain
6 amount of contempt.
7 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Ierace, I have a question for you. In the
9 translation, we have those words, "derogatory term for Muslim converts,
10 and small tower". I suppose those words are not in the original?
11 MR. IERACE: That's correct, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I would suggest to you that 20 minutes
14 for re-examination if any needed should be the target.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. In order to save time,
18 whenever possible please respond with yes or no. A moment ago, it was
19 mentioned that there was random indiscriminate targeting. Can you tell us
20 in that respect how accurate a 120 millimetre mortar is?
21 A. I don't know that by profession. I'm --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please wait until I've
23 finished the interpretation. I didn't hear the last words of the witness.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More than 50 kilos at any --
25 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters could not hear the last words of the
1 witness because you started speaking already. Would you please refrain
2 from doing so, because it takes more time to redress it.
3 Could you please complete your answer. You've said, at least
4 that's what was translated to us. "I don't know that by profession."
5 Could you please tell us what you then said after that.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of formation, I'm a
7 communications officer. I was in charge of telecommunications.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
9 Q. Thank you very much. But in your opinion, was it possible to fire
10 such a weapon if it is relatively heavy?
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. It doesn't arise out of
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know if -- I think it
15 stems from the cross-examination. Mr. Ierace spent quite some time
16 inquiring about an intervention of an officer. This stems directly from
17 the cross-examination. Let us move on, please.
18 Q. Witness, do you know if there was any obligation for the crew to
19 be -- for the UN members to be as close as possible to the artillery
20 pieces that they were required to control?
21 A. After the agreement concerning the control of the artillery pieces
22 was signed, the UN had the obligation to control such weapons.
23 Q. Thank you very much. I will change the topic and would like to
24 show the witness the exhibit which was just shown to the witness, 3777.
25 And we will work in the English translation.
1 I should like you to tell us, please in whichever language you
2 prefer --
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I could
4 imagine, and you might have deduced from the question of Judge Nieto-Navia
5 that the Chamber usually is not pleased by receiving instead of
6 translations, commented translations. So if you are working from the
7 English text, fine. But then I think we cannot ask then the Prosecution
8 any more to provide us a virgin translation.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do you wish the B/C/S also?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will work on the B/C/S
15 text, but it doesn't seem quite legible to me. But it will perhaps be
16 better for the witness.
17 Q. Witness, would you please tell us about the part that follows
18 immediately after the word Vogosca.
19 A. "In accordance with the established procedure --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: As usual, they did not
21 inform us about this at all and we did not receive their evening report
22 until 21.15 hours.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, would you agree with me -- strike
25 that. Were there many other cases, to your knowledge, when the
1 information coming from the brigade failed to reach the level of the corps
2 as it seems to follow from this report?
3 A. I cannot answer the question because I do not have any such
4 knowledge. I was not part of the control and command system, that is, of
5 the hierarchy that normally received such reports.
6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. A moment ago or yesterday, I'm not
7 sure, you Indjicated that 80 per cent of protests were made verbally. Do
8 you remember saying that?
9 A. I did not say that. I said that about 95 per cent of protests
10 were lodged in verbal form.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you for correcting me.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my recollection is that was in chief,
14 and there was some problem with the translation. But in essence, my
15 objection is that was in chief, and not in cross-examination.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well the question has been answered now, but the
17 matter has been raised in chief.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, but this
19 was not my question. I first lay the foundation for the question which
20 will follow.
21 Q. My question is as follows -- yes, thank you. A moment ago the
22 Prosecution asked you if you really do not remember having received
23 specific protests concerning opening fire on civilians, and your answer
24 was "I do not remember." I now want to know the following: In view the
25 fact that 95 per cent of the protests were made verbally, and also in
1 light of the fact that you told us that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps first, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, can finish his
3 question. I've forgotten to put on my microphone. Could
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin finish his question and you wait --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 Q. In light of the percentage of these verbal protests and in light
7 of your testimony that no written record was made thereof, if these
8 protests, whatever they were had arrived, had reached someone else and not
9 yourself, would it have been technically possible that you could have
10 known something about these protests, considering the fact that they were
11 made verbally?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it's difficult to make this objection
14 in the presence of the witness. I submit that my learned colleague has
15 misstated the evidence of the witness in a critical respect.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider it. And perhaps in order not to send
17 the witness in and out, could you first move to your next question, and
18 I'll write down that this issue is still pending.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will gladly
20 move to my next question.
21 Q. Witness, you told us about the closing down, or rather the limited
22 use or the interest of the PTT building concerning a kidnapping of a Croat
23 liaison officer. Could you be more specific and providing us with some
24 more details concerning this issue.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I stand to be corrected. I don't
1 recollect anything being said about the kidnapping of a Croat liaison
2 officer. I apologise in that case.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Mr. Ierace withdraws his objection,
4 as far as I understand. Yes, please proceed.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 Q. Can I have your answer, please.
7 A. Muslim forces captured and detained the official HVO liaison
8 officer upon insistence on the part of the UN, the person was released,
9 and the office in the PTT building that they used was closed down. So
10 only two warring factions had their liaison officers and not all three of
11 them as was initially envisaged.
12 Q. Thank you very much. This is a question of principle. Do you
13 know as far as the brigade level is concerned, who -- the person
14 responsible for the artillery group within a brigade, from whom is he
15 supposed to receive his orders?
16 A. All orders at the level of the brigade are in principle issued by
17 the brigade commander.
18 Q. Very well. If an order to open fire is given to this brigade
19 commander, by whom would it have been?
20 A. He would have received the order from the superior command, that
21 is, the corps command, usually the corps commander, in his absence, the
22 chief of staff. Or in the absence of the chief of staff, the duty
23 operation officer.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Even in the case of an order to stop firing
25 if any firing is underway?
1 A. The answer is the same. I mean, the same structures and the same
2 individuals would have been concerned.
3 Q. Thank you. Would there have been any reason for a artillery group
4 commander to receive an order, either to open fire or to stop firing, by a
5 simple liaison officer?
6 A. Even if such an order would have arrived from a liaison officer,
7 he would not -- he could not carry it out.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Ms. Pilipovic
9 has a couple of questions she would like to put to the witness, and then
10 we will conclude our re-examination.
11 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to
13 show a document to Mr. Indjic. It's Document Number 1840.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Ms. Pilipovic.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D1840. I apologise. Your Honour,
16 I can provide the document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It will be simpler, perhaps.
19 Could it be put on the ELMO.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Tendered
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it has.
23 Q. Mr. Indjic, in response to a question from Mr. Ierace, you read out
24 certain paragraphs from this document, but could you read out paragraph 2,
25 which starts with "the most characteristic."
1 A. The most characteristic examples of serious violations of
2 cease-fire are the following: During the whole day, heavy infantry fire
3 directed at the positions in the Okruglica region."
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Indjic, is this a type of written protest which has
5 to do with violations of a truce?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
10 Judge Nieto-Navia has a question for you.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 You said during your testimony the following, I'm not going to
14 quote exactly, but you said that the number of UN military observers and
15 the mandate that they had reflected negatively on their possibility to see
16 the situation and to understand it. I would like you to elaborate a
17 little bit on this.
18 A. Yes. It would be best to start at the end, perhaps. The mandate
19 of the military observers was very restricted, and it was mostly in force
20 for a period of six months. They came from various regions, these regions
21 included Bangladesh, Kenya, New Zealand, Australia. So it was very
22 difficult for them to become familiar with the real situation on the
23 ground in a course of a six-month period, to become familiar with the
24 units, the people, the men. As far as their number is concerned, it
25 wasn't sufficient for them to be able to cover adequately the wide area of
1 the SRK. They couldn't adequately monitor and report on the overall
2 activities of in that area. And for this reason, several observation
3 posts were established from which direct monitoring -- observation of the
4 activities in the field was not carried out. But the officers simply
5 received a pile of information from various sources on the ground. Very
6 often, the military observers were forced, because of these deficiencies,
7 to forward information that they received from one of the warring
8 factions, and they forwarded this information from one of the warring
9 factions to another warring faction without checking it. I don't know if
10 my answer is sufficient.
11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Previous interpretation continues]... Thank
13 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 I would like to clarify two matters. And could you please answer
17 my questions as briefly as possible. In the course of your testimony and
18 in response to a question put to you with regard to fire which was opened
19 in Dobrinja in June 1993, and the target was a football match, I'm not
20 sure whether you remember the question that was put to you.
21 A. I think the question had to do with the incident in the queue for
22 humanitarian aid.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 A. Yes, I remember the question.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You also said, and I'm quoting
1 you in English "All of Sarajevo under Muslim control were civilian areas,
2 and any protest regarding activity in or against Sarajevo was a protest
3 regarding civilians."
4 [No Interpretation]
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise for interrupting, but we
6 haven't had any translation into English beyond the point of the quote.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's page 49, line 6.
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] I think the problem is that we didn't
9 receive any translation after your quote.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I'll repeat that question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I quoted the witness who said
13 "all parts of Sarajevo under Muslim control were civilian areas and any
14 protest regarding activity in or against Sarajevo was a protest regarding
16 And at that point, I said it was at page 49, line 6. And I wanted
17 to be sure of what the witness wanted to say. I wanted to be sure of the
18 meaning of the witness's sentence when he said that the city of Sarajevo
19 was a civilian zone. Please, go ahead.
20 A. When I said this, I emphasised how particular the Sarajevo
21 battlefield was because the entire city of Sarajevo is a civilian zone if
22 you observe it from one perspective. If you observe it from another
23 perspective, it is a military zone. That is what I wanted to say.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So any shelling of the town, in
25 your opinion, amounts to the shelling of a civilian zone?
1 A. I'll repeat this again. Because of the specific nature of the
2 Sarajevo battlefield, the entire city of Sarajevo was at the same time a
3 civilian area and a military area. Any action against a military target
4 in Sarajevo was also action taken and directed at a civilian part of
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it means that a civilian
7 target is also involved. That is the translation of your answer, isn't
9 A. No. I said that any action directed against a military target in
10 Sarajevo is also action in a civilian area because of the specific nature
11 of the battlefield. The entire area of Sarajevo is at the same time a
12 military area and a civilian area.
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.
14 And my last question has to do with the letter addressed by the SRK
15 command to General Rose and Soubirou. Do you remember this protest?
16 Madam Registrar, could you help me, please. The document is
18 Do you remember it?
19 A. The -- this type of document is familiar to me, but I don't
20 remember this document, this specific document from that period.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you explained that this
22 protest did not satisfy the criteria you had established for an adequate
23 protest, that is to say, it didn't include all the necessary information.
24 Yes, are you confirming that?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So I am therefore wondering what
2 was the purpose of this protest?
3 A. If you examine the contents, all contents of this protest, you
4 will see that in general, it has to do with the violation of the truce,
5 the purpose of this protest is by documenting -- by recording the
6 violation of the truce and via the mediation of the UN, the enemy side is
7 supposed to be forced to respect the truce.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But this is the point at
9 which I'm no longer following you. You say at the same time that it is a
10 protest, and also that it doesn't satisfy the criteria that you yourself
11 had established in order to consider a protest as a valid protest.
12 A. If individual parts of this protest, each part of the protest was
13 separated, and if separate protests were made out of them, then these
14 would be adequate protests and concrete measures could be taken. But this
15 protest is of a general kind, and it does not -- the individual incidents
16 haven't been listed in order for steps to be taken with regard to the
17 individual instance. It's a general protest in order to re-establish the
18 truce that had been violated.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well, Mr. Indjic.
21 My first question is when protests were made to you, oral protests, did
22 you ever spontaneously comment on these protests? So before seeking
23 information from the ground, did you ever spontaneously respond?
24 A. I never spontaneously responded to the person who made the
25 protest. But I'm sure that I myself made spontaneous comments.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Spontaneous comments to who?
2 A. [In English] For myself. [Interpretation] For myself.
3 JUDGE ORIE: They could not be heard by the person who lodged the
4 protest if it was an oral protest?
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then may I ask you about uniforms. Was there a
7 standard uniform? Because you testified that military men wearing black
8 caps with human skulls on it were part of the SRK. Where would that cap
9 come from? Was it part of officially prescribed uniforms?
10 A. Those clothes weren't part of the regular uniforms. There was a
11 problem with uniforms from the very beginning of the war so that in
12 various parts, you could see soldiers wearing various kinds of uniforms.
13 The black cap Indjicates a certain ideological position of a given unit
14 and in a conflict with the enemy, attempts were made at all levels to
15 prevent ideological conflicts between -- among the Serbs. And thus, no
16 one requested that these ideological symbols be removed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: My next question is you said Mr. Ashton had far more
18 authority than just being a photographer. Could you please explain to us
19 what specifically made you believe that he had far more authority?
20 A. If I remember this correctly, I think that one of the UNHCR
21 coordinator was Mr. Peter Deck [phoen]. I don't know what basis John
22 Ashton was able to influence many things with regard to the UNHCR activity
23 through this person as a freelance photographer. The doors to the
24 Sarajevo sector command was opened to him. He could go there and contact
25 various people in the command, although he wasn't in the UN chain. And
1 these are some of the factors which led me to that conclusion.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, how did you know all this?
3 A. Through personal information I had and information I obtained from
4 other people.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions for you.
6 Is there any need to put addition questions to the witness that do
7 arise out of the questions by the Bench? If not -- yes, I was informed
8 that you wanted to address the Chamber for another issue. Please tell us
9 what you would like to tell us.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yesterday you asked
11 me to write down the name of the interpreter. I have done so. I didn't
12 want to forget this. And secondly, I wanted to say that I apologise for
13 looking at the Defence accidentally. This wasn't for any particular
14 purpose. I just was not aware of the fact that I should not do so.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber noticed that on more than one occasion,
16 you did so.
17 The name, Madam Registrar, perhaps you could read out what the
18 witness had written down when dealing with the documents, if it's legible.
19 Well, the name is not very problematic. It's Milanovic, Jadranka. So I
20 think that's easy to catch. I see it's perfectly written on the screen,
21 apart from the diacritic mark, but that's a technical problem.
22 Mr. Indjic, I would like to thank you for answering questions of
23 both parties and the Bench. It took you more than two days in this
24 courtroom. As you have seen, we all tried to accommodate you so that you
25 could travel back and be at home again in time. I wish you a safe trip
1 home again.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And thank you for having
3 behaved very correctly towards me as a witness. And if you allow me to do
4 so, I would just like to greet my commander at the end.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you just -- I do understand that you know
6 each other, it would be a bit.
7 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed that Mr. Piletta-Zanin wants to
11 address the Chamber, and I see that Mr. Ierace is on his feet. So who is
12 going first? Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Very
14 briefly. First of all, this is for the French booth, but that's not the
15 reason for which I wanted to intervene. I suggest that they should pay
16 attention to page 25, 60, 65, 70, and 82. And I am assuming that the
17 French booth is sufficiently aware of what it has to find there.
18 Having said that, Mr. President, next week I might not be present,
19 not from the very beginning, but halfway through the week, I might be
20 absent. I might decide not to be present for a very simple reason, but
21 perhaps we could go into private session very briefly. Or I can say this
22 in public, or in open session.
23 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we were informed in the last break
23 that in respect of next week, the Defence will be calling the three
24 witnesses of fact who have not yet been called. That does not really
25 assist us. We need to know the order of the witnesses, and I would be
1 grateful if the Defence could be required to Indjicate that order.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understood that we start with Witness DP2.
3 And then could you give the next two ones, Ms. Pilipovic.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the next witnesses on the
5 list of the 24th of January are Knezevic Sasa and Krsman Sinisa. I didn't
6 think that the pace could be quite as rapid. I had a list based on the
7 order we had planned, but I told the registry and the Prosecution that I
8 would make a list for the next week after this working day. My colleague
9 will continue with Witness DP2 next week, and then it's -- Knezevic Sasa
10 and Krsman Sinisa.
11 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that, Mr. President. Would you also
12 please clarify the obligation of the Defence to inform the Prosecution of
13 any exhibits that they intend to tender through the accused if they
14 exercise their choice to call the accused.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, that certainly is an obligation.
16 If you want to call the accused because as Indjicated before, the
17 Prosecution should have the possibility to prepare for cross-examination.
18 There is another issue, that is, that in your talks with the Victims and
19 Witness Unit, it seems that the arrangement you have made until now is
20 based on the assumption that the expert witnesses will be examined on from
21 Wednesday or Thursday. If you decide that the accused will testify, of
22 course, it would -- an improper way of using the funds of the Tribunal to
23 have the experts to wait for three, four, five extra days. So even if you
24 don't want to tell us now, and I take it that you at least reserve the
25 right to call General Galic, would you please keep in mind that as far as
1 the funds involved is concerned, that it's not acceptable that the expert
2 witnesses stay in The Hague for a long time where we expected them to stay
3 not more than a couple of days before they start their testimony.
4 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
6 draw the Trial Chamber's attention to the fact that there are two
7 witnesses who are part of the UN family. I don't think it would be useful
8 to mention their names, but we have them in our mind. And their
9 appearance before this Chamber is still in suspense. So this could pose a
10 chronological problem. I have just received a letter from the section
11 concerned. The Defence is trying as much as possible to accelerate this
12 process. But to a large extent, it doesn't have everything under control
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think they are scheduled for a later period of
15 time. As you may have noticed, Ms. Pilipovic and Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the
16 Chamber has always said that the accused should be called before we start
17 examining the expert witnesses and has made specifically reference to the
18 possibility that those witnesses for which you very late applied for the
19 assistance of the Chamber to call them and for which witnesses the Chamber
20 did its utmost best, at least the staff supporting the Chamber to, reach
21 them in time, that if they could not be called before the expert
22 witnesses, we might make an exception for them. But it has always been
23 Indjicated that the accused would not be the last witness of fact, but
24 should not be examined once you have started the examination of the expert
25 witnesses. And the other witnesses, that is a matter of whether they
1 can -- whether they can arrive in time in The Hague and these are rather
2 technical reasons and not strictly procedural reasons. And whenever there
3 would be need, and that has been Indjicated as well, to recall the accused,
4 if he has chosen to testify after we have heard the expert testimony, and
5 the same would of course be true for international witnesses that cannot
6 arrive in due time in The Hague, that the Chamber will certainly
7 positively consider such an application.
8 If it's leading to any conclusion, there's a slight difference
9 between the last witness of fact and not testifying before expert
10 witnesses, because the Chamber has always Indjicated that if these
11 international witnesses could not be -- could not arrive in time in
12 The Hague, that perhaps they would be examined during or after the expert
13 witnesses. But that's for technical reasons, and mainly caused by the
14 very late application to -- for assistance in order to get them in
15 The Hague.
16 Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: I apologise, Mr. President. Because there's a
18 distinct possibility that the accused will not be giving evidence next
19 week, I would also be grateful if we could have confirmed the name of the
20 first expert to be called in that scenario so that we can prepare for that
21 witness as well as the accused.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you received this information.
23 I've a final -- yes. I see that the following order is that we start with
24 Cavoski, and then Kunjadic. There is a letter. And it seems to be
25 addressed to you, Mr. Ierace. And it is from the -- let me just check.
1 The 22nd of January. It's dated. So there you find the order of
2 appearance of the expert witnesses. And then I have a last question. In
3 order for the Chamber to decide whether expertise, for example,
4 contradicting the expert report of Ewa Tabeau would be admitted, we'd like
5 to see what it is. Because there are applications for experts to be added
6 to the expert list. We still have to consider what time to allocate for
7 those witnesses, but we would first like to see what it is about.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the expert report of
9 Mrs. Svetlana Radovanovic is a demographic report, and it's a response to
10 Ewa Tabeau's report. The translation into English, Your Honour, I think
11 it will be provided today. The translation will be provided to the
12 registry today.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was Indjicated already for last week. But
14 at least I'm glad that we'll then receive it today. May I conclude by
15 thanking again the interpreters and the technical staff who did a
16 marvelous job this week, to thank them for again their flexibility. And
17 we'll adjourn until next Monday in this same courtroom in the afternoon,
18 that's a quarter past 2.00.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
20 at 1.57 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
21 the 3rd day of February, 2003,
22 at 2.15 p.m.