Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19784

1 Wednesday, 19 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would

6 you please call the case?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I take it that the

10 Defence is ready to continue the examination of the witness.

11 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness, Mr. Gray, into the

12 courtroom. I'd like to use the time meanwhile to indicate to the parties

13 that we cannot start tomorrow at 2.15 since there is an initial appearance

14 in the same courtroom. The parties should keep themselves available to

15 start with the hearing on from 3.15 tomorrow.

16 So it might be that we are never sure how much time an initial

17 appearance will take so it might be that we cannot immediately start at

18 3.15 but the parties should keep themselves available.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the registrar informs me that there has

20 been -- you used one hour yesterday for the witness, Mr. Gray, and your

21 estimate -- time estimate was -- I haven't got it clearly in my mind at

22 this very moment but it is certainly written down somewhere. Four hours,

23 yes.

24 [The witness entered court]


Page 19785

1 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Gray. We're a bit delayed

2 because the morning session took a bit more time than we expected,

3 therefore we'll start a bit later than we intended.


5 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

6 solemn declaration you had given at the beginning of your testimony.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, good day again.

11 A. Good day.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you first of all tell us very briefly who your

13 command superior was at the time of the events?

14 A. My -- at which point in time?

15 Q. Well, if there was -- if you had several superiors while you were

16 there, tell us their names, please. Can you hear me well?

17 A. Yes. My immediate superior was Colonel John B. Wilson. He was

18 later a brigadier. He was a chief military observer. When sector

19 Sarajevo was created, the commander was General Lewis McKenzie. The

20 overall commander was Lieutenant Colonel Satish Nambiar.

21 Q. Thank you. I would like to talk about the second officer you

22 mentioned, about General MacKenzie. Could you please tell us what kind of

23 relations you had with him and I mean purely personal relations?

24 A. We had very strong, good personal relations.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the

Page 19786

1 assistance of the usher, I'd like to show an exhibit, 1846, I think -- I

2 hope that's the right number. Thank you. It's a document dated the 29th

3 of July, 1992. I see we only have one page here, I don't know why,

4 but -- I'm sorry about this.

5 THE WITNESS: That's true, this is true.

6 Q. Witness, wait a minute, please. Do you recognise the letter?

7 Have you already seen it somewhere?

8 A. I think so.

9 Q. Thank you. I'd be grateful if you could read item three in this

10 letter, could you do so, please? Could you read it out aloud? Mr. Gray?

11 A. Lieutenant Colonel Gray --

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: We can read what's on the piece of paper. It is

15 inappropriate to lead this sort of evidence from a witness in chief

16 bolstering character. The witness is not under attack in relation to his

17 character. It is self-serving in that sense and it is also clearly

18 distressing to the witness.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't want to

22 disturb anyone and certainly not the Prosecution, but we have heard many

23 things in the witness' absence. We have a document here and I think we

24 could hear it being read out allowed. I don't know if we should tender a

25 document which I don't even know if it's going to be accepted later but

Page 19787

1 not yet, just a minute, Mr. Ierace, I'd like to finish.

2 Mr. President, I'd like to finish. Thank you.

3 It's of great importance for the credibility of this witness. We

4 should learn not only what we might think about it but what might great

5 professionals might have thought about him at the time of the events and

6 this is information that should be rendered public. It's necessary to

7 read it given that we don't know what the attitude of the Prosecution will

8 be at the end of the hearing with regard to accepting or rejecting such a

9 document, thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, nothing was said contradictory to what

12 was said in paragraph 3 in front of us. It was inappropriate for my

13 learned colleague to say that. Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there is no reason not to hear

16 about the credentials of this witness in a public hearing, but since it

17 seems to evoke some emotions with him, the Chamber suggests that you read

18 the parts you want to draw our attention to and ask the witness

19 about -- the questions you have in mind.

20 So -- but you asked him already, you started already.

21 THE WITNESS: I can read it out. I can read it out. Okay.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Will you please read paragraph 3.

23 THE WITNESS: "Paragraph 3, Lieutenant Colonel Gray demonstrated

24 great personal courage."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand but it's certain -- raises some

Page 19788

1 emotions with you. I will read it. "Paragraph 3 which is Lieutenant

2 Colonel Gray demonstrated great personal courage on numerous occasions.

3 He was always first a volunteer for risky missions and he naturally led by

4 example."

5 If there's any other part please read it out, please.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'll read

7 the last page. I apologise, the last line under item four which interests

8 us because of the following questions, with your leave.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: "Progress to date on the airport agreement

11 owes a good deal to his efforts."

12 Q. [Interpretation] This brings me, witness, to item four. As far as

13 you can remember, what can you tell us about the efforts you made to

14 obtain an agreement on the airport, first of all?

15 A. Okay, I did all the planning for the opening of the airport, all

16 of them in this document here. Which reads: "Planning consideration to

17 verify the withdrawal of all arms weapons and locate the location and

18 direction of --"

19 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please slow down when reading.

20 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, witness, I apologise. We'll present this document in a

23 minute. We'll tender it so it's not necessary to read it. We are simply

24 interested in what you can remember. Could you briefly tell us what you

25 did within the framework of the so-called airport agreement?

Page 19789












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Page 19790

1 A. I did all the planning for the opening of the airport.

2 Q. Thank you. What did that involve, Colonel Gray, or what was

3 involved when you spoke about the opening of the airport?

4 A. It was a military exercise, intellectual exercise on my behalf in

5 order to provide the headquarters of UNPROFOR with the detail that I

6 considered necessary in order to open the airport.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, what was the objective of opening the

8 airport, why was it necessary to open it?

9 A. The airport was required to be opened because people were short of

10 food and basic items to live, and so the Serbs agreed, after the airport

11 agreement, to actually let the airport be taken over by the UN in order to

12 bring in the humanitarian aid.

13 Q. Thank you. You mentioned about the Serbian desire to allow the

14 airport to be opened. What can you tell us about the willingness of the

15 other party or of the other parties, if we're talking both about the

16 Croats and the Muslims at that time?

17 A. They had very little say about it because they didn't control the

18 airport. I mean, the Serbs controlled the airport and they willingly gave

19 that over to the UN in order to allow humanitarian aid to be delivered.

20 Q. Thank you. Witness, with the assistance of the usher and the

21 leave of Mr. President, I'm going to show you a document, the number it

22 bears is 1847. Here it is. And the question I want to put to you is as

23 follows: Could you have a quick look at the document and tell us whether

24 it's a document that you mentioned a minute ago?

25 A. Yes, it is, I wrote it. It's mine.

Page 19791

1 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm that it was signed by yourself? I

2 think I can see your signature at the bottom; is that your signature?

3 A. That is true.

4 Q. And by the person who is mentioned below you, that is to say,

5 Dr. -- above, not below, Dr. Nikola Koljevic?

6 A. Yeah, a very nice person.

7 Q. Thank you. We can put this document aside, witness.

8 Colonel, I'd like you to tell us whether you were informed about a

9 second agreement between the sides that you might have been involved in

10 and if there was such a second agreement, what was concerned?

11 A. Okay. Okay. This is the main, main thing. This is the main

12 point of contention, I think. When General Lewis MacKenzie left Sarajevo

13 in July, a vacuum was created. There was only a chief of staff, a French

14 Colonel, Davout, a very nice person but he was a chief of staff. I have

15 been a chief of staff for a formation, a brigade headquarters in a large,

16 large formation of thousands of soldiers. A chief of staff has the

17 primary function to run the headquarters and follow the commander's intent

18 or his orders.

19 In the absence of a commander and therefore no intent, no

20 direction, nothing was happening. A war was just going on. I, as a

21 senior military observer in Sarajevo was aware, through my military

22 observers, about -- I mean they were spread around Sarajevo. We were

23 aware of heavy weapons which were not under UN observation. I, therefore,

24 of my own initiative, undertook to create a second agreement for the

25 concentration of heavy weapons. I did this and I concluded this with

Page 19792

1 Serbs firstly, and then with the Presidency side or the Muslim side.

2 They both signed the agreement. General Galic was a party to that

3 agreement.

4 Q. Thank you, Colonel. With the leave of Mr. President, I suggest

5 that we show you Exhibit D109, D for Defence and naturally with the

6 assistance of Madam Registrar, who is going to find it for us. We have

7 copies here, but we need to find the original document. The document in

8 question is D109.

9 And Witness, when you are shown this document --

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We have D109A and we have D109B.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well let's start by one or the

12 other. We think it's the same document. Let's start with A.

13 Usher, I would be grateful if you could hand all this out. Thank

14 you. And perhaps to put --

15 Q. Very well. Witness, have you had the time to have a look at the

16 document?

17 A. I have.

18 Q. Thank you. Does this document conform to what you just pointed

19 out to us?

20 A. I wrote the document. It's mine.

21 Q. Thank you. I see that on page 3, your signature is indicated; did

22 you also sign the document, Colonel?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Could you also confirm that Mr. Radovan Karadzic signed this

25 document?

Page 19793

1 A. This document was signed by Radovan Karadzic and it was also

2 signed by Ratko Mladic.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, in relation to this agreement, reached with

4 regard to heavy weapons, I would now like to focus on a certain issue.

5 The first question is: At this time when this agreement was signed, did

6 the Serb forces give you access or did -- or perhaps did they prevent you

7 from having access to their heavy weapons?

8 A. No, definitely not.

9 Q. When you say no, what do you mean exactly?

10 A. They did not prevent us from having access. They willingly showed

11 us where there were extra locations where they had heavy weapons which

12 were not under UN supervision and they willingly did that.

13 Q. Very well. But did you have the possibility, when counting shots,

14 to come across information, to compare the information that the Serb side

15 gave you with observations made by UN observers?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Thank you. Did you ever come to the conclusion that your UN

18 observations contradicted those presented to you by the Serbs?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. I now want to go back to the issue of the spirit of

21 the agreements. As far as the spirit of the agreements is concerned, if

22 you are able to judge this yourself, what could you tell us about the

23 spirit that moved the Serbian side at the time?

24 A. The Serbian side at the time were -- I mean they wanted a

25 political solution to the whole war and that was exhibited by the fact

Page 19794

1 that the Serbian side always signed the agreements first and the

2 Presidency side always signed them second. And the Presidency side were

3 forced, I mean at some great length, to actually sign the agreements.

4 Q. Thank you. What were the Serbs seeking in the spirit, could you

5 tell us in a couple of words?

6 A. They wanted their own self-determination. They wanted to keep the

7 territory that they had always held and that's all.

8 Q. Were you under the impression, given the situation on the ground,

9 that the territory that they said was theirs and the actual situation,

10 reality, did you have the impression that these two factors corresponded

11 to each other.

12 I will withdraw that question. I'll ask another question.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to leading by my friend in

14 formulating his questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it's better to prevent the situation to exist but

16 since the question is withdrawn, please proceed.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, I would now like to examine the situation from a

19 different perspective, that is to say, the perspective of the so-called

20 Muslim side. As far as the spirit of the agreements is concerned, and in

21 particular, the spirit of the agreement that we are talking about now,

22 what, in your opinion, was the position of the so-called Muslim army?

23 A. Well, they -- they objected strenuously and it was extremely hard

24 to get their agreement, I mean their signature on the agreement. It was

25 very, very difficult. I went to a meeting with Lieutenant General

Page 19795












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Page 19796

1 Satish Nambiar and Alija Izetbegovic was there and Stjepan Kljujic was

2 there. We had -- Mr. Halilovic was there. All the key players, Stjepan

3 Siber was there, they were all at this meeting and I had been trying for

4 days and days to get this agreement signed and it was virtually

5 impossible.

6 I had Satish Nambiar sitting on my right-hand side and I pushed

7 Mr. Izetbegovic or President Izetbegovic, I pushed him so hard about

8 signing this agreement that Satish Nambiar actually took out his left hand

9 and grabbed my right hand and he nearly broke my fingers squeezing them so

10 hard to stop me pushing Izetbegovic about this agreement.

11 Two days later, the Presidency side signed it. That was the

12 amount of resistance there was about having peace.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, why was there, as you said, why was there a

14 resistance to find peace or rather to achieve peace?

15 A. The Serbian forces were basically -- in Bosnia wanted to keep the

16 land that they had for a long time, hundreds of years. The Muslims, on

17 the other hand, or the Presidency side, wanted to totally cleanse Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina of any Serbians and have a totally Muslim state. That's a

19 fact.

20 Q. Thank you. I'd like us to change the topic now and if we can now

21 look at the opening of fire. I am speaking of artillery now or about

22 weapons like rocket launchers.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Or rather not rocket launchers, mortars,

24 interpreter's correction.


Page 19797

1 Q. Now, Colonel. Here was an enemy. If you were being fired at, is

2 it legitimate to return fire? As far as you know about military

3 profession, is that legitimate?

4 A. Of course it is. It has to be.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, let us focus on the firing that was coming from

6 the city. Yesterday, you spoke to us about vehicles that were carrying

7 mortars on them and you told us that there was fire opened towards the

8 Serb forces from these weapons.

9 Now, my question is the following: This technique that was used,

10 did they seem to you to be something that was done rarely, exceptionally

11 or rather this was something that this was provocation technique done in a

12 systematic manner?

13 A. This was absolutely routine. It was routine. It was routine.

14 They drove these vehicles around Sarajevo. They would fire one mortar

15 bomb and then they would move so that when the counter-battery fire came

16 back, there would be no one there apart from, unfortunately, civilians.

17 But I mean this was quite deliberate.

18 Q. Witness, you speak of routine. If I ask you to qualify or

19 quantify this routine in terms of time, in terms of frequency, was this

20 something that happened once a week, once a month, ten times a period of

21 time, I don't know?

22 A. It depended on the amount of ammunition that they had and I mean

23 we can deal with that point later. But I mean it really depended on the

24 amount of ammunition that they had. I mean the artillery position that

25 was up by the tower, the TV tower, up there, that artillery position with

Page 19798

1 105 Howitzers.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please have it on the ELMO so we can see it.

3 THE WITNESS: Okay. Where's the pointer? Okay. The TV tower is

4 there, okay, that's where --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Just a moment,

6 Colonel. First I have to describe for the transcript what you are

7 showing. For the transcript, the witness is pointing to a hill called

8 Hum. Could you please continue now.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before the witness does continue

10 I'm having some trouble with my screen. Could I have some assistance,

11 perhaps from one of the technicians while the witness gives his evidence.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Could we now have a look again, the image on the screen that I had

16 and could you please point again?

17 A. This is the position of the TV tower. This is where I had

18 observers monitoring 105 millimetre Howitzers. The only inability of the

19 Presidency side to actually use these howitzers what that that they'd run

20 out of ammunition but they were remanufacturing ammunition.

21 Q. We'll talk about it later.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in order to avoid whatever

23 confusion, the map the witness is using at this very moment is not the map

24 he used yesterday and he marked yesterday. If you'd -- either we have to

25 identify what map he's using or present to him the map we used yesterday.

Page 19799

1 Perhaps the latter is --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. It may be that

3 this is the witness', originally it was the same map.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore either identify that map or --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course. Of course.

6 Q. Witness, witness, please, could you do the following? Take this

7 map from the ELMO and what we are going to do is going to place a

8 different map on the ELMO with the assistance of Madam Registrar and the

9 map in question is exactly the same map as the previous one and I will ask

10 you to point again so that we can be sure that we are talking about the

11 same thing.

12 Not with a pen, please. With the pointer, thank you.

13 A. No, this is the wrong one. It's further.

14 Q. Indeed, you're right, which shows us this is what we need is the

15 second part of the map, the second half of the map?

16 JUDGE ORIE: It's one map consisting of two parts.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Colonel, for your

18 observation.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness made some marking on the map that was

20 presented to him yesterday especially on the eastern part where he marked

21 numbers 4, 5, 7, 8. Yes, that's the one. Perhaps he could use that one.

22 Yes, but it was in two parts, an eastern part and a western part. I think

23 as a matter of fact, that yes, -- if we are talking about Hum hill that's

24 on the eastern part.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, yes.

Page 19800

1 Q. Witness, I would be grateful if you can look at number 4 or 5.

2 That will be -- no, no, more to -- no, no, more to -- more to the west,

3 please. Yes. What number do you have, that's a number 6, I believe?

4 Yes. Are we now speaking of the same thing?

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. So the witness has identified number 6 which is just above Novo

7 Sarajevo and I believe that there is the name of Hum there. Very well,

8 now, witness, let us go back to the question of mobile mortars and of the

9 frequency of their firing. You said that this depended but according to

10 your personal experience, what I want to know is whether this was

11 something that happened several times a week, several times a month or

12 several times a day and so on. If you can tell us something about that,

13 please?

14 A. Several times a day.

15 Q. Thank you. In your earlier answer, Witness, you said that

16 the -- this caused killing of civilians. Do you think that this was part

17 of a strategy?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to leading. I would be

20 grateful if my friend would not lead the witness.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.


23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

24 Q. What can you tell us about this topic in terms of a strategy?

25 Mr. President, just one thing, if I am mistaken, this is just by

Page 19801

1 error and of course Mr. Ierace will stand up and will let me know if he

2 can. I will rephrase my question.

3 Witness, what can you tell us in relation to the firing, if you

4 know about the purpose of this firing, if you know anything about that.

5 We're not speaking with the frequency.

6 A. Okay. There was a -- in my view, a definite strategy to

7 deliberately provoke --

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, by his questions, has led the

11 witness by invitation to offer theories. He has not made clear in his

12 questions any distinction between known facts and opinion. This is

13 similar to an objection I made yesterday and in my respectful submission,

14 it is appropriate to elicit what the witness knows quite separate from

15 what opinions the witness might have.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we are faced with a problem that

17 you did lead the witness and then of course if you withdraw the question

18 and then put a question in the similar area then the effect of leading has

19 not been undone. Would you please move for this moment to your next

20 subject and you will certainly find a suitable moment to ask the witness

21 about facts that might finally --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President, I

23 will do that.

24 Q. Witness, you told us yesterday -- you told us about a scene, the

25 scene was about the arrival of a politician to Sarajevo; do you remember

Page 19802

1 that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Thank you. I believe, and I'm speaking from memory, you used the

4 term of murder. You spoke of murder.

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Witness, could you now tell us only about the fact, do you know,

9 do you have any knowledge about facts that you can relate to the things

10 that you have known that have taken place in Sarajevo and if you do, can

11 you tell us about them?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. Would you please do that?

14 A. Okay. Okay. We had a number of politicians who came to Sarajevo

15 including President Mitterand, Lord Carrington and there are a number of

16 other politicians who came in to try and resolve the whole situation.

17 Each time they arrived, there were two separate programmes. They had

18 meetings with the Serb side, normally at the airport. Some of them, I

19 think, were at Lukavica, but mostly at the airport, and we actually sent

20 UN armoured personnel carriers to Lukavica to uplift the Serb politicians

21 and bring them to the airport so that they were protected and they could

22 have their meeting.

23 Then, there were the other meetings which were held at the

24 Presidency, always at the Presidency. The two programmes for the meetings

25 were always only told to the separate sides. Neither side got a total

Page 19803

1 copy of the programme. It -- it became predictable that whenever any

2 politician went to the Presidency, and this was without the knowledge of

3 the Serbs, they didn't know the precise timing, that mortar bombs would

4 land immediately outside the Presidency and would kill or wound people.

5 Media, media coverage, of course, was always there in terms of the

6 BBC, and CNN because they knew that Lord Carrington or whoever was going

7 to actually be at a meeting in the Presidency and it was a big media

8 thing.

9 Q. Thank you, witness. Thank you, Colonel. You're telling us about

10 shelling and my question is the following: Did you have an opportunity in

11 your career to see a number of mortar craters; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see many? I'm not asking you to give us a precise figure,

14 but an approximation, more than ten, more than 50, more than 100?

15 A. I did a mortar course. I mean I -- I mean I did a heavy weapons

16 course in which I learned how to actually use mortars and during my time

17 in Sarajevo, I saw many mortar craters.

18 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us if you have ever seen, you

19 personally, and I'm only speaking exclusively about mortars, so have you

20 ever seen a situation -- no, I withdraw that. I will withdraw that so

21 that I don't provoke any problems. I will rephrase my question.

22 Could you please describe to the Chamber what does a mortar crater

23 look like that we see, that we can find on hard surfaces, for instance, on

24 asphalt?

25 A. Okay. When a mortar bomb lands, whether it's a -- the people in

Page 19804

1 Sarajevo on either side, they were only using 82-millimetre mortars or

2 120-millimetre mortars. When a mortar bomb lands, it leaves a very nice

3 neat little -- it's a very small crater. I should have brought some

4 photos. And there is a completely uniform splatter mark from the shrapnel

5 that comes out from the actual mortar impact and the mortar, the tail fin

6 is never destroyed, it will break off on impact and it will be a short

7 distance away.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, in your experience, what is the depth

9 of such a crater on an asphalt surface, approximately?

10 A. On an asphalt surface, the depth would be no more than one

11 centimetre, that's all. That's only -- I mean with -- that's with a

12 super-quick impact. If you use a delayed fuse, it will be deeper and it

13 will create a deeper crater but with super-quick it will just be a

14 centimetre deep, that's all.

15 Q. Thank you. You're talking about a tail fin, you're speaking about

16 a tail fin that is ejected, gets separated from the shell and then you're

17 telling us about a fuse, that is, you spoke to us of delay fuses and my

18 question is the following: What happens with the stabiliser that is with

19 a tailfin after the explosion when it is used, say hypothetically with a

20 time-delay fuse?

21 A. It is still -- I mean they -- the mortar bomb goes into the ground

22 with a delay fuse and that creates a crater. It blows the dirt or

23 whatever out of the crater and therefore the tail fin goes with it. It

24 doesn't stay in the crater. That's it. And normally you find it maybe

25 five metres away.

Page 19805

1 Q. In the hypothetical situation where a mortar is found with this

2 kind of time-delay fuse, what does then a crater look like? You said how

3 deep it was but I don't know whether -- it is larger, could you give us a

4 little more information about the nature of such a crater?

5 A. Well, it depends on the calibre of the mortar. I mean obviously

6 the bigger the mortar, the bigger the crater so if you're using, say, an

7 82-millimetre mortar, then you would -- with a time-delay fuse, you would

8 expect the crater to be maybe one metre deep, okay. And you'll find the

9 tail fin amongst all the dirt and whatever that's been blown out of the

10 crater, okay. With a 120 millimetre mortar it may be slightly deeper but

11 again, you'll find the tail fin maybe ten metres away.

12 Q. I'm not certain that I heard you correctly. You said one metre in

13 depth, is that what I heard; did I hear this correctly?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Very well. So if I have one metre in depth, what would be then

16 the diameter, what would be the width, say that the crater is more or less

17 a circle, then what would be the width?

18 A. 1.5 metres. 1.5 metres.

19 Q. You're telling us about a diameter?

20 A. Diameter.

21 Q. But in none of the two cases, if I understood you correctly, if

22 none of the two cases would the stabiliser tail fin be found inside the

23 crater either in 82 or?

24 MR. IERACE: [Previous translation continues] ... Leading,

25 Mr. President.

Page 19806

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I answer

2 that? This is not a leading question. The witness said it clearly. I

3 just wanted him to summarise. This was not really a question. It was

4 just asking for a summary. Now, if I understood what the witness said,

5 the witness said that in any case, the stabiliser, the tail fin is

6 ejected.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Said that it

8 would be found somewhere next to the crater. In the second answer he said

9 that it would be at a distance of ten metres where the crater would be of

10 a smaller diameter so to that extent it's not leading but was shown in the

11 answer of the witness.

12 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President the witness gave his evidence

13 strongly suggesting this is what typically happens and if my learned

14 colleague is willing to explore if there are any exceptions to that

15 typical behaviour with mortar fins, that's what he should have asked. Not

16 to put it in positive terms that in no circumstances does it end up in the

17 crater.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I understood the question to be that in both cases,

19 that is, in both typical situations, whether the situation would be that

20 the tail fin would not end in the crater, not about facts but about

21 typical situations that's how I understood it and both the typical

22 situations being that one would be a fuse that would explode immediately

23 upon impact and the other one the fuse to detonate delayed.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is not in dispute in terms of

25 typical behaviour. If one then goes to the wording of the question, and

Page 19807

1 we well know the background to the question, then that takes it a step

2 further in positive terms.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I did -- I did not consider the question. I do not

4 think that this witness can tell of his general experience. That's what

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked him about. The answers were clear so I don't know

6 what you are -- please formulate your questions such a way that even an

7 impression of leading would be nonexistent. Please proceed.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I will be

9 very careful of my questions more and more, thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Now, witness, since we're speaking about craters -- sorry, no,

11 I'll rephrase the question.

12 When there is an artillery -- where there is artillery fire, is

13 there necessarily a crater; yes or no?

14 A. There is normally a crater and it has a very specific marking to

15 it, very specific. It has an impact point and then there is a butterfly

16 effect on the ground which is caused by the shrapnel.

17 Q. Thank you. I'm now speaking as a general rule, not just about

18 mortars but I'm also speaking about artillery fire. Whenever we have

19 artillery fire, is there always a crater, of course if it hits a target or

20 not?

21 A. Yes, there is, and the crater depending on the size of the

22 artillery shell will be bigger or ...

23 Q. Thank you. Now, on this subject, since you are telling us

24 that -- or there's always a crater following artillery fire, has it

25 arrived to you that you have unlike situations under this angle and if so,

Page 19808

1 which ones?

2 A. Sorry, can you repeat?

3 Q. I will rephrase my question. Has it ever happened to you that you

4 have examined such situations when there was a problem of a crater that is

5 existence or nonexistence of a crater would have posed itself in different

6 terms?

7 A. Yes, there was. There was a lot of media attention to a

8 casualties at our market and -- in Sarajevo --

9 Q. No, no, I'm not asking you to point at the market. You can just

10 tell us about the fact?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, the question was whether you had ever -- it

12 ever happened to you that you have examined a specific situation, not what

13 you read or heard in the media but where you examined a situation.

14 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm very sorry. I had the situation where my

15 observers went, because I sent professional -- I sent an artillery officer

16 and I sent a mortar officer who were totally experienced in knowing what

17 and they were -- they were experienced in doing crater analysis. So they

18 actually knew what they were looking for and that's what I sent them

19 there. And this was the so-called attack on the market where the Serbs

20 were supposed to have actually mortared or shelled at.

21 They found no evidence. No tail fins, they found no -- I mean I

22 can draw you a diagram if you like but I mean when I talked about an

23 artillery shell that lands, it lands and it -- you can tell the direction

24 it comes from because it has a butterfly effect on either side of it,

25 okay. So if it comes from this way the butterfly effect will be from this

Page 19809

1 way and if it comes from this way, the butterfly effect will be this way.

2 And they found nothing. Nothing at all.

3 Q. Colonel, since you have given us certain elements in your answer,

4 could you locate this incident, could you tell us when it happened and

5 where it happened?

6 A. Not precisely. It was a market --

7 Q. When, first of all?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray. Mr. Gray.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Colonel, when, first of all.

11 A. It was I think in July.

12 Q. Thank you. And could you tell us what the name of this place was?

13 What was the object, what was this place?

14 A. I honestly can't. I mean it was a market that I had been to

15 personally myself. It was walking distance from the PTT building.

16 Q. That's perfect. That's sufficient. Thank you. And what happened

17 in this market in terms of casualties, if there were any? What can you

18 tell us about this?

19 A. There were a number of dead and wounded. We or I sent these two

20 officers with another couple of officers to actually go there to examine

21 the scene and find out what they thought had actually happened.

22 Q. I'll stop you there. You said -- you told us that there were no

23 impact traces, no traces of artillery or mortar impact. What were the

24 conclusions of these experts?

25 A. Our conclusions were that it was a bomb. Now who put the bomb

Page 19810

1 there, I don't know, but it was a bomb. There was a crater in the ground

2 and people were killed and wounded, but it wasn't artillery and it wasn't

3 mortar. Who put the bomb there, I don't know.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, you mentioned the media earlier on and that

5 created some confusion. What did you want to say about the media, what

6 could you say about the media in relation to this particular incident?

7 A. The media immediately put a judgement on the -- what had happened

8 and they immediately blamed the Serbs. They had no right to do that.

9 Maybe there was a saboteur from the Serbs who may have placed the bomb

10 there. It certainly wasn't artillery or mortar because there was no

11 evidence to support mortar or artillery fire. The market was placed

12 behind an extremely high building so actually getting the mortar bombs or

13 the artillery there were -- was extremely hard but the media placed an

14 immediate judgement on who had actually done it.

15 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now I have a general question I would like to

16 ask. Can you tell us whether when alleged artillery incidents happened,

17 did one ask for joint commissions to be established after such events,

18 investigation commissions?

19 A. Not that I'm aware of.

20 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go back to the issue of fire. And

21 Mr. President, I'm looking at the time, but perhaps it's the right time to

22 show a video that I should have somewhere in front of me. I'll try to

23 provide the technical booth with it. The number is D34 - and it

24 appears - 8. But we can carry on with other matters for the moment.

25 Witness I'd like to focus on what we call the PTT building now and

Page 19811

1 could you tell us if this was a safe site for UN personnel or was it

2 perhaps a site that was not safe? Why, could you tell us something about

3 your personal experience there, please?

4 A. Okay. It was not safe. We had a number of French soldiers

5 wounded there one evening by 122 shells which came from the Croats, as I

6 found out later. We were shelled a number of times. The people using the

7 122s on one occasion failed to remove the plug in the front of the shell

8 and actually put a fuse in there so that the shell would actually detonate

9 and so the shell hit the side of the building and it went bump bump bump

10 bump down the actual outside fire escape of the building. We were sniped

11 at many, many times. The Bosnian Presidency actually sent in an

12 anti-sniper team to actually kill their own people who were sniping at us

13 from what I think is a student hostel. No, the PTT was not a safe place.

14 Q. Thank you. I'll go back to what you said in a minute. I've taken

15 note of what you said but I would like you to tell us about how frequently

16 the PTT building that you were in was fired at?

17 A. At the very beginning, certainly on the 14th of May and the 8th of

18 June, and then later on, we received a lot of fire but it was not -- it

19 was not frequent. The fact that the Presidency forces decided to park

20 some tanks 50 metres away from the PTT did not assist us whatsoever and

21 these two tanks that were parked there were subsequently destroyed at

22 Nedzarici.

23 Q. Thank you. You mentioned fire, and when you use this term, when

24 you use the term "fire," you're referring to what we call small arms, SA

25 would be the abbreviation in English or are you referring to some other

Page 19812

1 kind of fire?

2 A. No, I'm referring to artillery fire, 122, 82 millimetre, 120

3 millimetre. I mean -- and sniper fire so I mean we -- we were subjected

4 to all sorts of fire.

5 Q. Witness, could you tell us, if you know anything about this, of

6 course, could you tell us about the direction or the origin of fire, the

7 origin of fire opened from what we call small arms?

8 A. The small arms fire was normally directed from -- actually

9 got -- no. This is the wrong map. We need the other map. The other one.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be provided with the western part

11 of the map.

12 THE WITNESS: The western part, yeah. Yeah, that's better. Okay.

13 The PTT is here, okay.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].

15 Q. The witness is pointing to the PTT building.

16 A. The fire came from here.

17 Q. Wait, please. Thank you. The witness points slightly to the

18 west, to the south-west where there is a crossroads south of the main road

19 and it's a building that is slightly pink.

20 Carry on, please.

21 A. Okay.

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could we ask the witness to

23 put a mark there.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: All right, we will do it.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please -- witness, just a minute,

Page 19813

1 please. Could you please mark with the following number but I'm not sure

2 whether it's number 9 or number 8, we have to check that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So it should be 9.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it number 9? Very well. Could you mark that with number 9,

6 please?

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... The ELMO so

8 that we can --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. The witness marked

10 the site where he said that fire was opened at the PTT building. He

11 marked that site with the number 9.

12 Q. Witness, I think you mentioned a second site, could you please

13 point to this second site?

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. What is this? What kind of building is this?

16 A. This is an apartment building.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you mark that site with number 10, please?

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, a minute ago you mentioned

20 something that was the -- called the student's hostel, could you tell us

21 where this student's hostel is located, please? Could you indicate this?

22 A. Okay. This is the site of number 9. It's number 9.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, I can see two buildings there which resemble

24 each other, that is to say, the form is fairly triangular. Have you

25 circled just one of those buildings or both because what you marked seems

Page 19814

1 to -- your mark seems to be on one of these buildings?

2 A. Okay. No, the fire was coming from both of the buildings. It was

3 both.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, I

5 think it's the right time for the break.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until quarter past 4.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we did take a long time because it usually

12 takes some time before the witness so I've asked the usher already to try

13 and find the witness. Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. In relation to the

15 evidence of Mr. Indic there is a document that I said I would prepare

16 which I now provide copies of, that's P3785 that's the resolution -- the

17 report of the Secretary General.

18 Secondly, last week I said that we wanted identification and

19 copies of the three maps referred to in the Defence shelling expert's

20 report, we still haven't received any correspondence about that and

21 thirdly, yesterday, we were given a CD which the Defence received from the

22 witness said to contain documents and the Defence was having some

23 difficulty accessing the documents.

24 We've managed to open the CD and print off a large number of

25 documents. I've given a bundle to the Defence. There's about 20 or 30

Page 19815

1 pages still to come I'll provide those at the next break. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this information. I was informed

3 that the diary has been copied and made available to the parties. I

4 hardly dare to ask but is there any progress made in view of the videos.

5 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I've now viewed all of the

6 videos. If cross-examination commences this evening, or at least if I

7 have an opportunity to ask the witness a few questions, that will assist

8 me in identifying relevant segments to place on to a blank tape to tender

9 tomorrow.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you will have an opportunity to

11 put these questions to the witness today.

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are you ready to continue the examination of

13 Mr. Gray?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As always, Mr. President.

15 Q. Witness, before the break, you mentioned certain features on the

16 map and among them was the so-called students' hostel. My question is as

17 follows: Could you tell us anything about any particular incidents that

18 may have happened and that you might have witnessed from the so-called

19 student hostel building? And could we put the map back on the ELMO as

20 that would assist us.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. Witness, were you present when any kind of incident occurred with

23 regard to this building while you were in this building?

24 A. Yes, I was. There was two incidents that -- well, there are

25 several incidents but they -- apart from the sniping that was coming from

Page 19816

1 this building to --

2 Q. I'll stop you. For the English booth, I didn't say while you were

3 in the building, I said in relation to this building. Thank you.

4 Please carry on.

5 A. This building was used as part of the front line for the

6 Presidency forces. They were firing towards Nedzarici which is this

7 direction here.

8 Q. I'll stop you there, the witness pointed approximately to western

9 or eastern direction in the relation to the boulevard that we can see in

10 the map, please continue.

11 A. There was also one incident where -- which I physically saw myself

12 where a yellow Mercedes was trying to escape from Sarajevo towards Ilidza

13 which was held by the Serbs and from this building it was machine-gunned

14 and the people were killed.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd be grateful if you could use the pointer

16 to point at the road where this incident occurred.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. It is the road which is to the north of the so-called student

19 hostel buildings. Thank you. In what direction did the vehicle go?

20 A. The vehicle was travelling to the west and from the PTT here, I

21 was able to physically observe the machine-gun and of the vehicle which

22 happened right there.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, I have a question about Alipasino Polje,

24 could you please point to the Alipasino Polje area by using the pointer

25 and could you point to the area between numbers 9 and 10.

Page 19817

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. The witness complies. Thank you. This area that you pointed to,

3 who -- under whose control was it who had this area under their control as

4 far as you know?

5 A. The Presidency and the Muslims had it under their control.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know whether on the eastern facades of

7 the buildings of the so-called student hostel buildings, do you know

8 whether there were any firing positions there, any military positions?

9 A. Yes, there were.

10 Q. How can you be certain of this?

11 A. Because they were sniping at us in the PTT.

12 Q. Could you please take a black felt-tip and mark the eastern side

13 of the two buildings, of the two student hostel buildings in order to be

14 sure that we are referring to the same thing.

15 A. I've already marked it as number 9.

16 Q. Yes, but I would be grateful if you could mark the eastern side.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you. Are we talking about one building or both buildings?

19 A. Both buildings, as I said before.

20 Q. Thank you very much. So I'm assuming that the eastern side of the

21 second building also contained firing positions?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, with regard to these firing

24 incidents, and I am only referring to incidents in which small arms were

25 used but I'm also referring to so-called shelling incidents, as a UN

Page 19818

1 official, did you write any protests, did you form any protests? Not

2 necessarily write protests, did you express protests of any kind? Thank

3 you.

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. What form did these protests take, written or verbal?

6 A. Verbal.

7 Q. Thank you. How did the side to which the protests were addressed

8 react?

9 A. The Presidency side sent an anti-sniper team to actually kill

10 their own people who were actually firing at us from that particular

11 building. I have it recorded here.

12 Q. Very well. Witness, what would be the purpose of sending a team

13 to eliminate one's own men? This seems to be contradictory, what could

14 you tell us with regard to this subject?

15 A. It all depends on communication. There was a total lack of

16 communication and that's why the cease-fires never were enduring. I mean

17 that's why you could count -- I could arrange for a cease-fire and it was

18 supposed to come into effect, for example, at 10.00 in the morning and you

19 could count the seconds when the cease-fire was broken because there was a

20 lack of communication. People didn't know there was supposed to be a

21 cease-fire and so they just carried on as usual and the war just carried

22 on. There was no communication -- communication was a major, major

23 problem in this whole conflict.

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, earlier on we spoke about the shelling,

25 about -- and in particular about the shelling of a market that was not far

Page 19819

1 from the PTT building and the expression you used was "killed their own

2 people". What did you mean when you said that and could you please expand

3 on that?

4 A. The coincidence of having international media present when the

5 bomb and we're not talking about mortars or artillery, when the bomb

6 exploded, the coincidence of having media there to immediately get the

7 pictures to the BBC and the CNN was, for us who had been there for months,

8 I mean we had been there for months, was just too incredible to accept.

9 It had to be deliberate in the -- the Lord Carrington visit was

10 absolutely, totally incredible and I can expand on that if you want me to.

11 Q. Yes, please. Please do it.

12 A. Okay. When Lord Carrington visited, as I have said before, and

13 the parties, both parties didn't know about the visit programmes of

14 Lord Carrington. Lord Carrington had a meeting, I recall, at the PTT

15 building with the Serbs, it may have been at the airport, it certainly

16 wasn't at Lukavica. He then had a meeting at the Presidency building, he

17 was running late.

18 I went to the Presidency building and I was standing at the front

19 entrance of the Presidency building. Directly opposite me, there was a

20 very nice gentleman. He was 100 metres away from me. I actually have

21 this recorded on videotape.

22 Q. Witness, I'm going to have to interrupt you. Are you telling us

23 about the same incident that we have already spoken about yesterday or is

24 this a different occasion when the same politician arrived?

25 A. No, it's probably the same one.

Page 19820

1 Q. Very well. I apologise, in this case, I think that I could

2 interrupt you here but what I would like is if we can have a look at

3 something through Madam Registrar, we will have a look at a document

4 B32759. Yes, 32759.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Nine five, the interpreter's correction not five

6 nine.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, I'd like to

8 ask the technical booth to be ready to launch the cassette, the very last

9 scene. We will start by the end. This is a night recording but I believe

10 that we found it earlier so this should not pose a problem.

11 Q. Now, Witness, when you have the document in front of you, the

12 piece -- when -- the photograph, when it is placed on the ELMO, I'd like

13 you to tell us what you see on it, according to your recollection.

14 THE REGISTRAR: There are two photographs, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Witness --

17 A. Okay. This photograph was taken from the Serb side. It is

18 towards the middle of what I would call the middle of Sarajevo. It shows

19 a Holiday Inn and then it shows a building to the right of the Holiday

20 Inn.

21 Q. Very well. Just a moment. Just a moment. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Identify

23 which photograph is showing to the witness of these two. I take it.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a

25 reference number, 121722A.

Page 19821

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... A road

2 immediately in front of the photograph, a road and some bushes.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. There is a

4 hut. Will you please make the image larger? You see the whole -- zoom

5 out, zoom out. Thank you.

6 Q. Witness, to the extreme left of the image, we can see a hill and

7 there is a tower on it. Thank you. And the witness points to the tower.

8 Can you please tell us what hill this is?

9 A. Can I see the map?

10 Q. No, no, without looking at the map, please, Witness. In relation

11 to the tower which is there, can you tell us is this a facility that

12 you've already spoken about?

13 A. I said it's where the --

14 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you could also have said: Is

16 this -- well, and then -- this is not the way to put the question to the

17 witness. I mean and I really insist now on you refraining from leading

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin otherwise I'll have to ask you again to move to another

19 subject. Yes, please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, the centre of the image more or less we can see two

22 buildings, they seem to be higher than the others, taller than the others.

23 Can you please point at them with the pointer?

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. The witness does so. To the left of the first

Page 19822

1 building that you pointed, there is a building which seems to be yellow

2 and brown.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Thank you. And the witness points to that building. What is this

5 very last building, can you tell us?

6 A. The Holiday Inn.

7 Q. Thank you. What is the building which is right next to it?

8 A. I have no real idea what it was called, but I mean it's this

9 building here.

10 Q. Thank you. The witness points at this building. And now, could

11 we please make the building -- image of the building larger so that we can

12 see to one -- [In English] Every detail, okay. To the left.

13 [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, on the facade which is the narrowest of that building, we

15 can see a number of round holes, can you please point at them with the

16 pointer?

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. There's several of them?

19 A. Yes, there are.

20 Q. Thank you. The witness does so. According to your experience, to

21 what these holes correspond?

22 A. They're from tank rounds.

23 Q. Thank you. And they were fired by which side?

24 A. The Serbs.

25 Q. Thank you. The facade that you have just indicated, towards which

Page 19823

1 cardinal point is it facing, main point is it facing?

2 A. It's facing towards the north.

3 Q. I would be grateful if you can -- I'm going to ask you the

4 following question, Witness. You said that the photograph was taken from

5 a Serb position, Serb position. Was it located to the north, south, west

6 or east according to that point of view?

7 A. No, it was from the south.

8 Q. Thank you. Therefore, the facade I'm talking to you about which

9 has got tank rounds, which side is it facing?

10 A. It's facing the south.

11 Q. Thank you. We've got one last question before looking at the

12 video which is coming. If this narrow facade is facing south, logically

13 speaking, then the larger facade which is slightly to the right which key

14 point is it facing?

15 A. It's facing the east.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now I would like to have the

17 cassette shown which we mentioned earlier that is the very last segment on

18 the tape. Thank you.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, for the

21 technical booth, that was not that segment that I wanted shown but the

22 very last segment, the very, very last segment number nine, bearing number

23 nine which shows us an attack of the building that we just saw. So we

24 would be grateful if we could have a look at that segment.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 19824

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There it is, thank you.

2 Thank you.

3 Q. Witness, we just had a brief look at a scene and I would be

4 grateful to the technical booth if they can prepare this scene for a

5 possible reviewing so that this very last segment -- now, were you able to

6 recognise the building that was located in the middle of the image?

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Could you ask

8 the question to the witness because you indicated already when this part

9 was played that we are going about to see a building which we have just

10 been talking about so you have answered that question yourself already.

11 Would you please keep this in mind.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

13 Q. Witness, in relation to this cassette, we saw tracing bullets,

14 tracer bullets. From which side was the attack coming, in your opinion?

15 A. It was coming from the east.

16 Q. Very well. Can you please take the map, the map that we are

17 working with, and if you can show us, according to your knowledge, the

18 nearest positions in the east in relation to this building? So the

19 nearest Serb positions.

20 A. Okay. The nearest Serb position actually isn't on this map. It's

21 too far to the east.

22 Q. Very well. Could you please tell us how far were these positions

23 approximately?

24 A. The Serb positions were several kilometres away.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, we heard during the -- while we looked at the

Page 19825

1 tape, we saw that -- we heard the noise of the weapons and could you tell

2 us what was the type of the weapons that were used, the noise that you

3 heard, what was it?

4 A. They were medium machine-gun bullets.

5 Q. What diameter, what calibre?

6 A. 7.92 probably.

7 Q. Why are you saying probably?

8 A. Well, I mean, that was the weapon that the -- well, everyone was

9 using there, 7.92 millimetres and it's a medium machine-gun as opposed to

10 50 calibre or a 12 millimetre or a 14.5 millimetre which are classed as

11 heavy machine-guns.

12 Q. Thank you. In this attack that you saw, could it have been a

13 weapon of a larger calibre than the one that you mentioned?

14 A. No, definitely not.

15 Q. Why not? Why definitely not?

16 A. Because the sound is wrong. I know this -- I know the sound of a

17 machine-gun.

18 Q. Very well. But is there something in relation to the rhythm or

19 anything in particular that you can indicate to us?

20 A. It is. The actual rate of fire is far too high for a heavy

21 machine-gun. The firing is going far too fast.

22 Q. Thank you. To the extent that this is a 12.7 or 12.9

23 calibre -- what is the calibre that was used?

24 A. 7.92.

25 Q. I'm sorry, I apologise. To the extent that this is a 7.92

Page 19826

1 millimetre calibre, what is the effective range of this type of weapon?

2 A. Maximum range is 1200 metres, 1.2 kilometres.

3 Q. Thank you. Hypothetically speaking, what would be the range of a

4 higher calibre weapon, say of a heavy machine-gun?

5 A. A 50 calibre machine-gun or a 14.5 millimetre machine-gun would go

6 out to 2.000 metres but this was not fire. And you have to look at the

7 trajectory, the actual angle of fire in the actual videotape. The fire is

8 actually going upwards, it's not going downwards so I mean -- but it was

9 definitely 7.92 and it was not a heavy calibre machine-gun. A heavy

10 calibre machine-gun has a different sound to it as opposed to a crack

11 crack crack crack crack as we heard in the videotape, it will go boom boom

12 boom boom boom. That's what a heavy calibre machine-gun does.

13 Q. Thank you. For the transcript, Mr. President, the witness, when

14 he was talking about the crack crack crack very quickly, and the -- when

15 he was talking about boom boom boom, he would slow down considerably.

16 You spoke about the angle of the firing. What did you notice that

17 you can tell us about in relation to the situation of the building, the

18 position of the building and the positions and the enemy positions?

19 A. In terms of the position of the building, it was -- you could

20 quite clearly see that on the narrow facade. There were tank shell holes

21 from Serb tank fire accepted, but the actual fire that we saw in the

22 videotape was coming from the east and it was coming from a weapon that

23 was well outside any Serb weapon that was in -- to the east of Sarajevo

24 not even on the map. I mean I can produce another map but the position

25 was over here in terms of this map.

Page 19827

1 Q. Witness, I'm going to have to interrupt you by asking you the

2 following question: Since you've told us that the Serb positions were in

3 any case outside of this map, I'm going to ask you the following question:

4 What was the calibre used?

5 MR. IERACE: Given that the Defence counsel has chosen to ask

6 questions about directions of fire by reference to the map, it would be

7 appropriate for the Defence counsel to have the witness mark on the map

8 the position of the building because without that, the questioning doesn't

9 really have much value.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I disagree.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just try to practically the way it's done until

12 now is not sufficient to have good records so would you please take the

13 necessary measures either by describing what he points at or what he says

14 or by having him to mark it.

15 Marking is, as you might have noticed, the way preferred by the

16 Chamber.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 Q. This is how we'll proceed, Witness, could you please

19 indicate -- but first I'm just going to check that we have the good map.

20 Can you please zoom so that we can have the whole map? Thank you. Yes.

21 Witness, could you please indicate if you can see it, from which locations

22 more or less in your opinion the photograph was taken?

23 A. It was taken from over here.

24 Q. Very well. The witness points to the south of a road which is

25 called the transit road -- which we have called the transit road. Just a

Page 19828

1 moment.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the picture

3 isn't --

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... And I'll try

5 to describe where the witness points at. Could the map be zoomed in a

6 little bit?

7 Mr. Gray, could you again point at the situation where, in your

8 view, the picture was taken from.

9 A. From here.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is pointing at a yellow road just north

11 of it reads in Mrakusa and he points at the yellow road in that part of

12 the map between the two blue lines where it reads Muslimana.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I've had some

15 audio problems, I don't know whether everyone has had the same.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We have, as a matter of fact --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will proceed with only

18 one microphone. I have no interpretation but never mind, I will base

19 myself on the transcript.

20 Q. Now, witness, thank you. Looking at the map that you have before

21 you, could you please indicate where are the buildings located that you

22 have spoken about that is -- that you have pointed to already, that is the

23 Holiday Inn building and the building next to it?

24 A. They're in here, just in here. It's about -- it's a matter of the

25 range question that really counts here, I mean, that really matters. The

Page 19829

1 fact is that the Holiday Inn is in that area there, okay, and the

2 nearest --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's microphone be approached,

4 please.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if we could have a

6 recording of the position indicated by the witness before we move on.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness was pointing at an area which is

8 just north of the river, from Miljacka from where he earlier pointed the

9 photo was taken -- that's north from Mrakusa on the map and that is a part

10 that has been referred to many times as the old city.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 Q. So that we can locate things, could you please point to the Marsal

13 Tito barracks?

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. The witness does so and he points his pointer on a

16 rectangular structure and we know that this corresponds to the Marsal Tito

17 barracks. Now, according to your recollection, what was the distance

18 between the Marsal Tito barracks and the Holiday Inn Hotel?

19 A. I didn't actually sort of have the time or the effort or the -- to

20 actually measure the actual distance but it was at least a kilometre away.

21 Q. Very well. Witness, basing ourselves on the -- bearing in mind

22 the scale of the map, would you care to reconsider your position?

23 A. I presume we're talking about the firing on the building? The

24 firing came from the east and Marsal Tito barracks is to the west.

25 Q. Yes, exactly, but witness, my question is that given the scale of

Page 19830

1 the map that you have in front of you and the position of the Holiday Inn

2 hotel, could you perhaps --

3 JUDGE ORIE: The question was what was the distance between Tito

4 barracks and the Holiday Inn. By making reference to the scale of the

5 map, you are introducing new elements.

6 Could I ask you, you said that it was approximately one

7 kilometre --

8 THE WITNESS: It was at least a kilometre away.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us on the basis of what you tell us

10 this, is that because you walk that distance or you drove that distance.

11 THE WITNESS: I drove that distance down this road here past

12 Marsal Tito, okay, to the Presidency which is just here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the question was about the distance between

14 the Holiday Inn and the Tito barracks.

15 THE WITNESS: Okay. It would probably -- based on this here, it

16 would be 1.8 kilometres.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please point at this map where the

18 Holiday Inn Is.

19 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, the witness has already done

20 that. The witness was asked where the Holiday Inn and the building

21 alongside that were. We've marked that on the record.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I just try to -- could you please indicate where

23 the Holiday Inn Is.

24 THE WITNESS: Sure it's in this area here. I've never been to the

25 Holiday Inn, okay. I've only -- I've been very close to the Holiday Inn

Page 19831

1 but I've never been into it or whatever.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So you locate the Holiday Inn in what I just called

3 the old city, the area you were pointing at.

4 THE WITNESS: It is very close to it, yes, and the road that the

5 photo was taken from that we've all been looking at is this road here and

6 it -- and it's pointing it's facing north and the Holiday Inn is just in

7 this area here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The witness now points at a spot just north of what

9 is indicated on the map as Marsala Tita especially the area just next to

10 the Marsala Tita north of Mrakusa where approximately a triangular green

11 spot is on the map.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Witness, could you use the pointer to point to the map or indicate

15 the direction of fire in relation to the attack that we mentioned a minute

16 ago?

17 A. That's the direction of fire from the tank.

18 Q. I'm not talking about the tank attacking but the attack that you

19 yourself said came from the east. Could you indicate?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Thank you, the witness points to an area that is parallel to the

22 road called Marsal Tito Road in the direction of the east. Thank you very

23 much. Could you please have a look at the extreme eastern part of this

24 map? Could you have a look at that area and I hope that we'll be able to

25 see the far eastern part of this map. With the assistance of the usher,

Page 19832

1 we need to move the map up a bit. Thank you.

2 Could you use a black felt-tip to draw an arrow and to show in

3 which direction -- to show where the Serbian positions were located in the

4 east, use an arrow to do so. Thank you. And tell us, please, very

5 roughly, how many kilometres were these positions from the extreme part of

6 the map?

7 A. At least another two kilometres off the map, at least.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think the

10 witness has been quite clear. I'd like to move on to another subject and

11 could we show the very first part of the video, it's a scene that was

12 filmed at night.

13 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I'm -- I would like to see the sequence

14 which you asked so many questions again, not necessarily immediately,

15 that's one. But I've still got no idea what video this is when I compare

16 the voice of this witness. He's not the one who's speaking so I wonder

17 what we are looking at? Are we looking at --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We

19 received a certain number of video documents from this witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... From what it is

21 and you perhaps ask him that.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We'll check that.

23 Q. Witness, I think you are in a position to tell us whether you can

24 recognise the images that you saw a minute ago as images that are part of

25 the material that you provided us with; yes or no?

Page 19833

1 A. That's true.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, the part that we just had a look at, could

3 you tell us what the origin of that sequence is?

4 A. It's from a BBC recording of events in Sarajevo.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Mr. President, any other questions?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you record it yourself, did you see it on

8 television and had a video recorder? How does it -- how did it come to

9 you?

10 THE WITNESS: I was -- I had a number of military observers in

11 Sarajevo. One of them happened to be a New Zealander and he went to the

12 TV station which was right next door to the PTT building and he obtained

13 all these videotapes for me. He obtained them from their unedited raw

14 footage of the actual war.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You say BBC, was that a BBC office or were there more

16 broadcasting companies? How do you know that this was the BBC sequence?

17 I'm just trying to find out.

18 THE WITNESS: Because if you actually look at the videotape you

19 will actually see BBC on it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's perhaps the reason why we have to look again.

21 THE WITNESS: Because it actually gives you the countdown, ten,

22 nine, one and then it shows the actual sequence.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I haven't seen any of the countdown but perhaps

24 we'll start.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

Page 19834

1 Mr. Ierace could confirm that on occasion we had 15, 14, 13, et cetera.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... It's a BBC

3 sequence then of course it's --

4 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I've seen I think about two and a

5 half hours of BBC footage on these tapes. The date is incorrect. Most of

6 them carry the date the 16th of June 1992, that's clearly incorrect. The

7 time is repeated as well, that's probably incorrect.

8 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

9 MR. IERACE: I accept that all of the footage I saw was taken in

10 1992 and perhaps the witness could assist us with his recollection as to

11 some events that we're about to see - not this one in particular -

12 occurred. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And I have a last question, you copied it from your

14 UNMO who got it for you.

15 THE WITNESS: No, he copied it for me and in fact the videotapes,

16 if you want to have a look at them, you'll find out that they -- a number

17 of them have got inscribed on them a -- that they are actually from the

18 Defence film library in New Zealand, they've actually got numbers on them,

19 actually burnt into the actual cassette tape.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Was it copied for you later?

21 THE WITNESS: It was copied for me later and that's why the

22 Prosecutor said here well they all show actually the 11th of June but what

23 happened was they copied this material in one session and they all show

24 the same date on the actual footage.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you got a copy which was

Page 19835

1 prepared in -- not in Sarajevo but later on.

2 THE WITNESS: No, it was prepared in Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The copy was prepared in Sarajevo.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. It was actually prepared in the TV

5 station next door to the PTT.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So he did not only obtain his copy but he also there

7 copied a version for you or.

8 THE WITNESS: I have no idea if he actually took his own copy but

9 this is a copy that he took for me.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. Please proceed,

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 We'll have a look at this sequence a little later but perhaps we could

14 have a look at the first sequence if the technical booth is ready. Thank

15 you.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. IERACE: Might we just clarify which tape that was on, it's a

18 matter of disclosure, Mr. President.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's a good question. It's

20 one of the four tapes that you were provided with but I can't tell you

21 which one, Mr. Ierace. We worked on this very late in the night without

22 calling you, I know, but I can't tell you which cassette we used. It was

23 a patchwork but it's among the material that you have. It's either the

24 one that you saw this morning or the one that you saw yesterday but I

25 don't know. I would have to review the four tapes.

Page 19836

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... There are six

2 or seven lines to say what I understand to be I can't tell you

3 immediately, I'll check it at short notice but it certainly is in the

4 material we provided to you. That would be one line and a half,

5 approximately, which would ... You checked that it was one line and a

6 half, I see. I think that -- let's try to spend our time as efficiently

7 as possible. Please proceed.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.

9 Q. Witness, do you recognise yourself at the end of this tape?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Thank you. You said that they could destroy the entire city if

12 they wanted to, who were you referring to when you said "they"?

13 A. I was referring to the Serbs.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, with regard to the first part of this

15 sequence, we saw an attack carried out at night. My question is as

16 follows: Did such attacks -- did such night-time attacks occur frequently?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know who started these attacks, which side?

19 A. We had a observation post set up on top of the PTT and we also had

20 other observation posts set up. The attacks normally started on the

21 inside and then they were retaliated by the Serbs.

22 Q. Thank you. Colonel, the Serbian reaction, was it normal, was it

23 abnormal from a military point of view, was it understandable?

24 A. It was probably disproportionate to what was actually going out.

25 What was coming in from the Serbs was certainly a lot heavier but they had

Page 19837

1 more weapons and therefore, where one or two rounds went out then ten

2 rounds came in. It was just a fact of war.

3 Q. Very well. If we put aside the issue of the proportionality of

4 the response, was the response a legitimate one according to your

5 professional experience or was it not a legitimate one?

6 A. When you get fired at you normally fire back, so yes.

7 Q. Thank you. In the middle of this scene that we had a look at a

8 minute ago, we could see a radar. If you know anything about this, what

9 could you tell us about this radar, what was its purpose and secondly,

10 what did it allow you, one, to do, and to know and thirdly what happened

11 to it?

12 A. Okay. The radar was there, the two of them were actually brought

13 in. They're from, obviously, the Ukraine, that was on the videotape.

14 They were there to actually locate and give indications to the UN where

15 fire was coming from, where it was going to. They are specifically radars

16 for mortar and artillery, not for high velocity weapons, they had a

17 technical function to do that. The radar was -- that we actually saw on

18 the videotape was located close to Papa 7, I can show you on the map, if

19 you want me to, and one of the radars was damaged when it first arrived at

20 Sarajevo airport and it was never functional again, it was just moved away

21 so there was only one radar. That radar was basically put out of action

22 by fire.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether an investigation was launched to

24 determine the source of fire which rendered this radar useless, put it out

25 of service?

Page 19838

1 A. An investigation was launched and it was determined that

2 the -- because it was poorly located, which had nothing to do with me, but

3 it was a technical problem that happened, because it was poorly located,

4 it was sitting on the top of a ridge line, as I say, it was close to

5 Papa 7 and it was put out of action by -- we can only assume, and that's

6 the conclusion that we came to, it was put out of action by Serb fire.

7 Q. Thank you. If we could have a look at the second part of this

8 tape, please?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the transcript, usually we have

10 a transcript from videotapes. I do understand that it could not yet have

11 been prepared. We do not have the spoken text of the video now in our

12 transcript. May I take it that if one of these sequences is tendered into

13 evidence that sooner or later a transcript of the text will be provided as

14 well.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we'll do that gladly,

16 Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have not seen any number yet either so the

18 way, if this material is tendered, should be such that there could be no

19 confusion whatsoever.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for that reason, it may be appropriate

21 that we see each of the four sequences, whether it's the Prosecution or

22 Defence playing them, because if we don't see the transcript for some

23 days, it's going to be very difficult to remember back as to where the

24 part played commenced and where it finished if it isn't the full segment.

25 The segments range from two minutes to three minutes.

Page 19839

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand but perhaps -- well, the first

2 segment will be played again as far as I understand. The second

3 one -- for the time being, I ask the parties to work hard in writing down

4 any relevant part of the -- trying to catch the commentary, the voice so

5 that we can work with it.

6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I might also observe at this

7 stage that we haven't been told by the Defence which documents they intend

8 to tender, which particular video segments they intend to tender. A

9 number of videotapes and documents have been disclosed to us, that's one

10 of the difficulties I have at the moment. And because there are so many

11 segments on each of these tapes, it is difficult to work out what's being

12 disclosed, what hasn't, what's to be tendered and then locating it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must say that

15 yesterday in order to assist the Prosecution, I provided them with a piece

16 of paper on which we mentioned the places that we thought -- where we

17 thought we would find interesting things. That's what I was able to do I

18 wasn't able to do more than that and by the way, if there is one side that

19 is handicapped by the lack of the English transcript, it's the Defence.

20 It's certainly not the Prosecution, but we are going to do everything that

21 we can in order to carry this out but I can say that there are going to be

22 nine sequences which will be different and it's easy to recognise them on

23 the basis of their differences. There are night-time scenes, there are

24 daytime scenes, et cetera.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you have to --

Page 19840

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll speed up. May I do

2 so.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please then proceed and if during the break you could

4 give further information to the Prosecution on what parts you intend to

5 play and to tender.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't want to waste time but

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is correct he did give me some information last night.

8 I am grateful for that. I found that I was unable to locate the

9 particular segments. I'm simply saying that I'm not being overly critical

10 of my friend but there are problems and --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have not solved them yet and the parties are

12 urged to do whatever they can to accommodate the other party and let's now

13 proceed as indicated before the Prosecution if the Prosecution would need

14 extra time to prepare for cross-examination they can ask for it.

15 MR. IERACE: If we could begin the segments with the BBC black and

16 white part and that will make the transcript more accurate ultimately, in

17 terms of what's being shown

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President we're going

19 to carry on in order but we will start from the second sequence in order

20 to save time. Second sequence, please.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before we commence, this is the

22 difficulty. How can we remember in a week's time exactly where this

23 segment commenced in terms of transcript? Is it not better to commence it

24 with the BBC black and white.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course there always is an opportunity to look back

Page 19841

1 at the composite video picture of this so if needed, we could trace it

2 but -- so that is possible although it would take a lot of time but I'd

3 prefer now to start and if -- I have some hesitation to ask

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin to indicate what he will see because he might ask the

5 witness afterwards what he has seen. And that's not a proper way of ...

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To help the Prosecution, I can

7 say that the next sequence, as far as I can remember, should start with

8 the image of a young man carrying a gun and bearing a lily on his chest.

9 I think that's what I can remember

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's before that, just before

12 that.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, -- could we stop --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Spoken on the second was: "It was a tank, a tank".

17 That's perhaps identifies the sequences and it started with: "This

18 morning the Bosnian." Please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, could we fix on the image at the place where we saw the

21 last image, what can we see here? What can you see here?

22 A. That's an assault rifle.

23 Q. Who is holding it?

24 A. It's being held by a Muslim fighter.

25 Q. Could you perhaps tell us the sex of the person holding the rifle?

Page 19842

1 A. That's a male.

2 Q. I would like to ask you whether you know whether there were any

3 women who fought in the army?

4 A. Yes -- on what side, on the Muslim side?

5 Q. I'm referring to the Muslim side?

6 A. Yes, definitely.

7 Q. What sort of duties could they perform, what sort of posts could

8 they hold?

9 A. They had snipers there. They had female snipers. It's on the

10 videotapes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we carry on

12 and view the continuation of the cassette?

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We're going to stop here,

15 thank you.

16 Q. Witness, in relation to this sequence that we just saw, I have two

17 questions, the first question is that we heard the soldier say that

18 Muslims soldiers were good fighters and that they could go anywhere. What

19 can you comment in relation to this?

20 A. Numerically, I believe, in terms of manpower, the Presidency

21 forces had more manpower. In terms of heavy weapons, the Serbs had more

22 heavy weapons and that's all I can really comment upon.

23 Q. Thank you. But particularly this person who was speaking said

24 that he could go anywhere, pass through anything. What can you say about

25 the qualities of infantry soldiers, Muslim infantry soldiers to infiltrate

Page 19843

1 themselves anywhere, what can you comment regarding this?

2 A. The Presidency forces were being reinforced from outside Sarajevo

3 and there may have been a lot of media hype about a siege but we found, on

4 Serb positions, mortar tail fins which had Arabic writing on them and they

5 came from outside Sarajevo and they were being reinforced not only with

6 ammunition and food but also soldiers.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, at the end of this sequence, we saw these

8 men, three men wearing yellow and blue, but they seemed to be civilians

9 who were bearing weapons and they seemed to be relatively young men. What

10 can you tell us about the use by the Muslim army of young men who were

11 below the legal age of 18?

12 A. There were a lot of young men who were fighting for the Muslims or

13 Presidency. They usually distinguished themselves by having a bandanna

14 around their head or a sweatband, what I would call a sweatband around

15 their head and it was a different colours for different companies or

16 platoons, whatever, to differentiate who they were from. They were mostly

17 dressed in civilian clothing because they just didn't have uniforms but

18 they were fighters nonetheless and some were very young.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have a

20 look at the following sequence, technical booth, please.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Then immediately if we can

23 have the following sequence, the fourth sequence to save time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just stop for one second. This

25 section just started with "some mortar and small arms fire," that was the

Page 19844

1 text spoken and it ended with the words "... For most of the day," I think

2 it was.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

4 following sequence, BBC news, 11th of June, 1992.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. The sequence is

7 finished -- ends with the word "however".

8 JUDGE ORIE: This last section started: "It was the heaviest

9 fighting since the airlift." That's what is in my recollection. Please

10 proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed. Yes, I said this was

12 BBC news 2037 hours.

13 Q. Witness, with these two sequences that we just saw, and there was

14 talk of an area called Dobrinja, your recollection, could you please tell

15 us to what Dobrinja corresponds and which one of the two sides was there?

16 A. Dobrinja was held by the Presidency side and directly next to it

17 was Nedzarici. Both of the two suburbs were adjacent to the airport and

18 at the other end of Dobrinja was Lukavica which was held by the Serb

19 side. So it basically went a Serb, Muslim, Serb in Nedzarici and then

20 you've got the Stup, and Stup was Croat. And then to the west was Ilidza

21 which was a Serb-held suburb.

22 Q. Thank you. You spoke about the east side and could you please

23 tell us to which cardinal point in relation to the airport is the area of

24 Dobrinja located, the south or north of the airport?

25 A. Can I have the map?

Page 19845

1 Q. Perhaps I can rephrase my question in order to save time. On the

2 other side of Dobrinja, on the other side of the airport, is there a

3 settlement and which one is it?

4 A. It's Butmir.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, there was talk of exchange of fire

6 in these two sequences, video sequences. Can you tell us, according to

7 your recollection, since we are talking about the area of Dobrinja,

8 between which location and which location, that is locations and locations

9 was there this exchange of fire?

10 A. Dobrinja was firing at Nedzarici and Nedzarici were firing back

11 and we had Lukavica firing at Dobrinja as well and we also had Butmir

12 firing directly across the airport which was not good, and then Butmir

13 were firing at Nedzarici.

14 Q. Thank you. You say that Butmir was firing directly across the

15 airport and this wasn't good can you tell us why was it this -- why was

16 this not good?

17 A. Well, I mean we were trying to help everyone, I mean, all sides in

18 Sarajevo and yet we had all these bullets and shells which were, I mean

19 they were hangars there for planes, we had food in there, we had we had

20 all sorts of things, equipment and so on and we had Butmir was firing

21 directly across the airport into Nedzarici, it was all the headquarters

22 for one of the battalions and so I mean that wasn't good either.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, earlier, you spoke in response to a question

24 about women, you said that there were women snipers. What can you

25 briefly, briefly tell us about snipers and women snipers on the side of

Page 19846

1 the Muslim army?

2 A. Well, there is -- I mean on one of the videotapes, it will show

3 quite clearly that there is -- there was one very famous, infamous, woman

4 sniper for the Muslim forces who was firing on a daily basis against the

5 Serbian forces. I only recall there being one part of the videotape which

6 shows that one particular woman.

7 Q. Very well. But what can you tell us, not about a particular video

8 but in general, witness, what can you tell us about the situation in

9 relation to both armies, but particularly in relation to the Muslim army?

10 What can you tell us about snipers, did they exist, how many were there,

11 et cetera?

12 A. There were plenty of snipers and in fact, it was one of the key

13 defences that the Presidency forces had was snipers and they had them

14 in -- I mean they were sniping at the UN, they were sniping at the Serbs

15 and I've already told you about the anti-sniper team. It was about four

16 people that came to the PTT one day to actually do sniping at their own

17 people in what I call the student accommodation block which was on that

18 corner of the street.

19 Q. Thank you. Earlier, you said there were plenty of -- but were you

20 referring to one army in particular or can you be specific? What can you

21 tell us about it?

22 A. The Presidency forces had, as I have said before, they had more

23 people as opposed to heavy weapons. The Serb side had heavy weapons but

24 less people so -- I mean there was an exchange right outside the PTT of

25 ten tonne trucks exchanging weapons which had been taken from Marsal Tito

Page 19847

1 barracks, Viktor Bubanj barracks, you name it they were exchanged so you

2 they had -- the Muslim or Presidency side had plenty of small arms and

3 they had plenty of ammunition and so that's why sniping for them was far,

4 far more efficient than what they didn't have, which was heavy artillery

5 or mortars or tanks.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, you tell us about an exchange or a -- plenty

7 of ammunition, that there was passage of ammunition, what can you tell us

8 when this happened and at which location?

9 A. With the -- well the main exchange of ammunition and weapons

10 happened at the PTT building and it happened in June and it was a

11 pre-requirement for the evacuation of Marsal Tito barracks. Marshal Tito

12 barracks, obviously is in the centre of Sarajevo. It was totally

13 surrounded and unless they were actually -- unless the ammunition and the

14 weapons were passed across, then the soldiers inside the barracks would

15 not be allowed to leave. So they had very large trucks loaded with

16 ammunition and weapons which were -- were passed across from the Serbian

17 side to -- well, the in fact, the JNA, they were passed from the JNA to

18 the Muslim or Presidency side.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, we'll no doubt come back to the question of

20 the Viktor Bubanj barracks but for the time being, I'd like to have a look

21 at the next sequence please?

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think

23 we should do that after the break. Please keep in mind your time.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until five minutes past 6.00.

Page 19848

1 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the usher already to bring the witness

4 in, Mr. Ierace, or would it need so much time or --

5 MR. IERACE: No, no, Mr. President. I don't think I will be

6 longer than a minute or two.


8 MR. IERACE: Might I make a proposal as to the procedure that we

9 follow with a view to allowing the Prosecution to efficiently prepare its

10 cross-examination. Mr. President, would it be acceptable if

11 cross-examination tonight only took five or ten minutes so as to clarify

12 with the witness what aspects of his evidence so far are video. A number

13 of times the witness has said, "This is on video. I have video of that."

14 It's not clear to me, having viewed the videotapes whether there is, on

15 the tapes -- whether there are, on the tapes, images to particular aspects

16 of his testimony. With that information from the witness, hopefully

17 overnight and tomorrow, we can locate the relevant segments and then by

18 placing them on a separate tape, play them and proceed from that point.

19 Thank you, Mr. President.


21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have two

22 problems. First problem is this one and then the second is the second

23 problem. I'm going to start with the second problem or the other problem.

24 In order to assist the Prosecution with leave -- with the authorisation of

25 Madam Registrar, we gave the original to the Prosecution of the tape and

Page 19849

1 in order to have the same material, and I think that the tape can be

2 brought -- is being brought into the courtroom now, so my second problem

3 is taken care of so if we now give this tape to the technical booth, we

4 will then be able to replay it immediately.

5 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems is solved.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The other one.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In fact, both are resolved

9 because the Prosecution now has in their hands the extracts that we

10 pointed to so there is no point of doing this exercise because the

11 Prosecution has the tape that we were going to tender in its entirety.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I clarified with

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin during the break that the tape we have just copied does

15 not have the complete segments. The two tapes which contain BBC

16 interviews are not numbered so it's not possible to determine whether on

17 those two tapes these excerpts come from.

18 The Defence has not taped the whole two or three minutes but bits

19 of the two or three minutes. When I went through the tapes last night and

20 this morning, I made some notes of each segment but that does not assist

21 me to locate two of the segments that we've just seen. That's the problem

22 the Prosecution now has.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and would it be solved by just putting a few

24 questions at the end of today.

25 MR. IERACE: That would help, yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 19850

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not oppose against your suggestion,

3 Mr. Ierace, but let's first now resume the examination.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Some

6 procedural matters.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the technical booth, could

9 we now please have the fifth part of this cassette?

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, here, we are told about a secret workshop. What can you

13 tell us about what you saw on this tape in terms of --

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I didn't detect anything on the tape

15 to the effect that it was a secret workshop.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: It was said in English, unfortunately, but it

17 was said.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was said but if they would have said that

19 whatever it was, I mean are we discussing here the comments given by --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, no, my

21 question was to ask the witness about his comments, what Mr. Ierace said

22 that there was no expression "secret workshop" which was clearly used on

23 this tape.

24 Now, perhaps if this is necessary, then we can have it replayed

25 but it was said in English and it was very clear.

Page 19851

1 JUDGE ORIE: I looked at your question. You -- I would say

2 adequately said that we were told about a secret workshop and that's what

3 is said on the video. Yes. At least that's what the voice says.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

6 Q. Colonel, in this workshop which was presented as being a secret

7 one, you were able to see a number of elements. Can you tell us if you

8 recognise these elements, perhaps, as being parts of weapons, I don't

9 know, but what did you recognise as being military that can be useful for

10 the Chamber to know?

11 A. The workshop that was portrayed in that particular video clip was

12 actually in the basement of the PTT building and those weapons were being

13 remanufactured. There's another part of a video clip that wasn't being

14 shown but it actually shows them manufacturing weapons as well as

15 repairing weapons but part of the clip that you showed only showed them

16 repairing weapons but they were actually manufacturing weapons as well and

17 that was in the basement of the PTT.

18 Q. Witness, how can you be so sure and affirmative of the location of

19 this workshop?

20 A. I am absolutely certain and if you want to replay the tape and

21 stop it frame by frame, I can explain exactly why I know it is in the PTT

22 because there are -- in one backdrop they actually show windows, okay,

23 large windows, and that is most definitely the PTT basement and that's

24 where this workshop was.

25 Q. Very well. Perhaps we can replay this tape later on, but now let

Page 19852

1 us go to another tape and I would like to ask the technical booth to show

2 the next sequence but to show it quickly, to show it before the scene that

3 we are interested in, showing a mortar, I think, but it's a specific

4 weapon. Thank you.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would be grateful if we can

7 fastforward from here until the point of a specific weapon scene. Thank

8 you. Continue, please. Fastforward, please. Stop. Stop. You can

9 continue to play it normally, please.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Can we

12 now come back to the frame of the scene of the weapon, just before. Yes,

13 thank you. Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, you have before you an image, first of all, do you appear

15 on this image?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Thank you. What is the weapon that you see before you?

18 A. 120-millimetre mortar.

19 Q. Thank you. What is located at the -- behind the two people on the

20 right of the image, we can see an opening, what is that?

21 A. That is a protective bunker for people to take cover for incoming

22 fire.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, this type of facility, this mortar and also

24 everything else that we can see with the mortar, is this something that is

25 usual?

Page 19853

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, earlier in -- when the video was

3 fastforwarded we saw other weapons. What were they?

4 A. They were 122-millimetre Howitzers. There's an important thing

5 about the mortar that you're looking at right now that I should lay some

6 emphasis on to. It is -- it's got weeds growing around its actual base

7 plate, the actual thing where the barrel is going into, you just can't

8 quite see it on the screen. There are weeds growing around it. It hadn't

9 been fired in weeks.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I presume that we are

11 now -- can see the end of this scene, please, normal -- played normally.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can stop here. No,

14 just before, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

15 Q. Witness, here, we see this weapon that is being covered by its

16 cover. Where were its -- by what traces were you able to establish the

17 absence of fire?

18 A. The fact that the -- around the base plate there are weeds growing

19 which means that it hadn't been fired in weeks.

20 Q. Thank you. The base plate, is that the part where we see that the

21 person is extending their left hand?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Thank you. We can now ask the very last question which is the

24 following: Since you have checked this position and the others, can you

25 locate where these batteries were?

Page 19854

1 A. Yes, I can. I handed over a map, I think, to -- plus my diary and

2 a trace which the Court has, if they can give me that map, I can locate it

3 precisely on the ground.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of someone

5 and with the leave of Mr. President, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We told the witness that we would return to him the

7 documents he put at our disposal. These are maps.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

9 THE WITNESS: I need the map. Okay. That was Lima 5 -- I'm

10 sorry. That's Lima 5 here, it's located here. That's where that is

11 precisely.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you just zoom in a little bit so that we know.

13 Could you zoom in.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 THE WITNESS: That is Lima 5 and that is the position of those

16 120-mil. mortars and the 122-millimetre Howitzers.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think, there

18 president, that Lima 5 is --

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Of these maps

20 made, Madam Registrar.


22 JUDGE ORIE: The witness points at a circle just south from where

23 it reads Kadino Br. which I understand to be Kadino Brdo and with blue

24 letters Lukavac is written it seems to be the name of a river or a stream.

25 Please proceed.

Page 19855

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Can

2 we now have a look at the tape that follows?

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: They haven't been fired in weeks. You can see the

5 weeds, see.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You ask --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, here we are, thank you.

8 No, no, no. The sequence that I'm interested in is the one that begins

9 with the shots that we heard.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, I noticed that you spoke some words very

11 softly. We couldn't hear that. If there's any comment to be made, you

12 are certainly -- yes, a few words were translated -- at least appear in

13 the transcript. If there's any comment to be made, may I invite you to

14 wait until the sequence is finished.

15 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No. That's no problem.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have taken note

18 of these comments. Thank you. Now, the technical booth, the sequence

19 that starts with shots from a window. That's it.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, at the end of this sequence, before the close-up of the

23 word airport, we saw a shot which hit the facade of a building; did you

24 see that?

25 A. [Indiscernible]

Page 19856

1 Q. Thank you. In your opinion, what kind of a shot was it?

2 A. It came from a rifle grenade and then there was a 82 millimetre

3 mortar bomb that landed just there.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, were you able to hear the comment clearly?

5 A. I'm sorry?

6 Q. Were you able to hear the text on the video clearly?

7 A. [Indiscernible]

8 Q. Thank you. We're told that in this part of Sarajevo, the Serbs

9 were on the defensive. My question is on the basis of your experience,

10 were there several, were there many circumstances when you had such

11 situations? That is to say, there were Serbs who were on the defensive

12 and who were attempting to respond to attacks carried out by the enemy

13 side?

14 A. Yes, I have that experience. Ilidza is mentioned in the

15 actual -- the video, but Nedzarici was under constant siege and that was

16 right next to the airport. I as part of the second agreement for the

17 concentration of weapons, I negotiated with the local commander in

18 Nedzarici to establish UN observers there but unfortunately, the second

19 agreement was not honoured by the UN. I didn't get the extra observers

20 and so it never happened but Ilidza was definitely under attack a lot

21 and -- because you had -- basically between Nedzarici and Ilidza there was

22 Stup and Stup was held by Croats. So Nedzarici was totally isolated and

23 you had to be very brave to move from Nedzarici to Ilidza just to get the

24 food and water and so on.

25 Q. Thank you, witness. As far as you can remember, what was the

Page 19857

1 extent of the destruction of damage in Nedzarici which is an area you just

2 mentioned?

3 A. It was significant and I conducted one meeting there which was

4 involved with putting military observers into Nedzarici. That meeting had

5 to be -- happen at night. In fact I was forced to stay there overnight

6 and on that particular night, Nedzarici took 122-millimetre artillery

7 fire, the shells were landing 20 metres from where I was actually

8 sitting. The shell fragments, the shrapnel was coming through the window

9 into the room I was actually in and on the very same evening, the PTT was

10 shelled by the same 122-millimetre Howitzers. I later found out that

11 those guns were fired by the Croats.

12 Q. Thank you. You said that the damage was significant. I would

13 like to ask you the same question for the central part of Nedzarici. Was

14 the situation there similar, was it the same?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. Thank you. How do you explain the extent of this destruction?

17 A. It was caused by shell fire and mortar bombs.

18 Q. Very well. But how do you explain the fact that such shells,

19 whether they were direct artillery shells or indirect artillery shells,

20 how do you explain that they could fall in the centre of the area given

21 that the conflict was usually ongoing along the perimeter of the this

22 area?

23 A. The conflict, the direct conflict, you're correct, was actually on

24 the perimeter, I mean that's where the front line was. And Nedzarici was

25 facing in three different directions all at once, against the Croats and

Page 19858

1 against the Muslims. And they were facing the other way which was towards

2 the airport because they were actually attacked by the Presidency forces

3 from that side and on one of the videotapes, you will see two destroyed

4 tanks very clearly, and those tanks were used one night to try and

5 actually infiltrate and capture Nedzarici. But the actual destruction in

6 Nedzarici was very simple because all you need is a map, that's all you

7 need and you just -- as an artillery officer, you just work out bearing

8 whatever and you just fire and that's why the shells were landing in the

9 middle of Nedzarici.

10 Q. By referring to a map, you are saying that the centre was

11 deliberately targeted; is that how I am to take what you said?

12 A. Yes. Yes, it was.

13 Q. I'd like to examine an issue and then we will view two other

14 sequences. You mentioned about the steps you took as a negotiator and I

15 think that it is the right moment now to examine what the situation was in

16 relation to General Galic.

17 What can you tell us about General Galic's activities in relation

18 to establishing a peace agreement or in relation to reaching a peace

19 agreement?

20 A. When General Sipcic ceased to be the commander of the Sarajevo

21 corps and General Galic took over, I undertook to reach this new

22 agreement. I obviously negotiated with General Galic, I also negotiated

23 directly with Radovan Karadzic and also with Ratko Mladic, the commanding

24 Serb general for the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. Thank you, Colonel. I'd like to concentrate on the personality of

Page 19859

1 General Galic in relation to his personal willingness to obtain or not to

2 obtain such a peace agreement and I would like to remind you that

3 yesterday, you said that you saw him very frequently, that you saw him

4 very regularly.

5 A. He was, to start off with, and I mean that is understandable, he

6 was a little bit reluctant, but he then got orders and instructions,

7 obviously from Pale and Professor Koljevic who was one of the key players

8 in all of this, but he was then very cooperative and he was willing to

9 show me all the positions. Now, I actually went round a lot of the

10 positions that were not under UN observation, I actually met with the

11 commanders there, I observed all their weapons and the cooperation I

12 received from General Galic and the Serbs in general was absolutely

13 excellent. They signed the agreement for the concentration of all heavy

14 weapons first and I then had a fight, a real fight to actually get the

15 other agreement signed by the Presidency side.

16 Q. Thank you. We'll return to the -- to the two sequences. I would

17 be grateful if the technical booth could show them now?

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think you are slowly going over the four hours and

19 the Prosecution asked and the Chamber said that the suggestion was to

20 follow it, so...

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll make an effort.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... For the

23 Prosecution today so you have to finish in ten minutes.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please continue

Page 19860

1 playing the cassette.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, you

4 recognised the last sequence. It's the one you wanted. It has been seen

5 again.

6 Q. As far as the penultimate sequence is concerned, witness, what can

7 you tell us about what we saw, that is to say, we saw a convoy of white

8 lorries, could you tell us what this represents?

9 A. That was a French resupply convoy and it was, if you want to bring

10 up the map, it was travelling down this piece of road here -- what we call

11 a Butmir 400.

12 Q. Very well, witness, if you want to comment, I would like to be

13 able to see the map that we had a look at a minute ago. If you need to

14 mark anything, for example, the part where we can see the airport.

15 Just use the pointer for the moment, please, Colonel.

16 A. All right. Okay. The road where you saw the lorries is just

17 here.

18 Q. Very well. The witness points to a white road which goes along

19 the eastern -- or the southeastern extremity of the airport.

20 Thank you, witness, what happened to these lorries and what was

21 their destination?

22 A. They were a resupply convoy that had come in from Belgrade and

23 they were ambushed by the Muslims.

24 Q. Who were they to resupply and with what?

25 A. They were resupplying the UN, plus they were also bringing in aid

Page 19861

1 for people in Sarajevo.

2 Q. When you say "people in Sarajevo," which part of Sarajevo are you

3 referring to?

4 A. All parties. The aid was under the UNHCR as the distribution

5 agency and they distributed it as they could to the different parties.

6 Q. Very well. Would you please take a black felt-tip and use a cross

7 to mark the point of these attacks.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. You said that this convoy was ambushed by Muslim forces, can you

10 use an arrow to indicate the direction of fire when this convoy was fired

11 at?

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you tell us approximately how many

14 lorries there were in the convoy that we saw?

15 A. There were about 20 lorries in it and a point -- a very serious

16 point about this whole ambush was that it was totally deliberate, that the

17 Presidency forces knew that this convoy was coming through and they even

18 had a video camera team there to actually film the ambush on these

19 French -- I've already given evidence to the UN about this particular

20 ambush. I did that in 1992.

21 Q. Colonel, can you think of a reason or do you know the reason for

22 which this convoy was attacked?

23 A. I have no idea and I have no idea why I was personally attacked 13

24 times.

25 Q. By whom and with what?

Page 19862

1 A. By machine-guns, by small arms. The 13 times I talk about are

2 times when I was directly targeted, most of them in broad daylight in an

3 8-tonne armoured personnel carrier with UN markings on it which -- about

4 two metres high and they all came from the Croats or the Muslims. I was

5 never ever attacked by the Serbs, never ever ever.

6 Q. Colonel, how can be so sure of this?

7 A. Well, when you're travelling down the Butmir 400 which is mostly

8 where the attacks happened, and the fire comes from Butmir which was held

9 by the Muslims and you've got bullet strikes on your vehicle and you're

10 standing in the open as I used to, because I -- the crew commander was

11 required to actually stand in the open, and you don't get any bullet

12 strikes from the other side, it's pretty obvious who's actually firing.

13 Q. Thank you. Colonel, when you say that you were outside, can you

14 tell us was it a vehicle outside or was it someone who came out of the top

15 part of the vehicle?

16 A. Yes, the French armoured personnel carriers had a small turret on

17 the front of them you can see them in the videotapes, whatever,. The crew

18 commander was -- they had a 50 calibre machine-gun there for self-defence

19 but the crew command was required to expose themselves and so there were

20 two hatches at the top of the APC immediately behind the crew commander.

21 It was my practice always to stand up in the hatch and take the same

22 danger that the crew commander was taking.

23 Q. Thank you. Colonel, I apologise for this question but --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please keep in mind the time. Please.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Ten minutes for the

Page 19863

1 Prosecution, is that right?

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think you understand me perfectly well. I said 10

3 minutes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.

5 Q. Colonel, two questions to conclude: Do you know of any military

6 members who were carrying out their duty and who had less luck than you

7 did? And my second question in relation to the peace agreements which

8 couldn't be signed, what was the reason?

9 A. The peace agreements to deal with your second question first, the

10 peace agreements were signed. They were signed. They were sent to the

11 UN. The airport agreement was honoured by the UN, the first agreement was

12 honoured by the UN. That was the one to initially concentrate the weapons

13 which are shown on this place which is personally signed by

14 Colonel Zivanovic. The second one which was, for me, the most important

15 one which was the concentration of all heavy weapons was not honoured by

16 the UN.

17 Do I know of incidents where UN observers and soldiers were less

18 fortunate than I was because I actually survived the 13 attacks that were

19 made on me and the two death threats that were personally made to me.

20 Yes, I --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

22 apologise but I think that the Prosecution can proceed if it considers

23 this to be useful.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, we are almost at the time where we'll stop

25 so you'll get some time for rest but for another few minutes, the counsel

Page 19864

1 for the Prosecution will start asking questions. I expect that they'll

2 not go very much into the substance right away but have some -- need some

3 information from you that are more of a practical nature, perhaps.

4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, sure.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So that takes a couple more minutes.

6 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Mr. Gray, you gave us last night a map and the tracing paper. I

10 noticed earlier on today you drew another map from your briefcase. They

11 seem to be similar to the one --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

13 There's nothing to prove that the map concerned was another map, a

14 different map. We don't know which map we're talking about.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to clarify. The witness is perfectly able

16 to identify if there's a mistake in the question.


18 Q. Yes, earlier I noticed you drew a map from your black case and you

19 brought it out and then there was some discussion about whether you should

20 be referred to the map that you'd marked yesterday so you put it back in

21 your briefcase.

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. What was that map?

24 A. That was a map provided to me by the Defence counsel. It's

25 precisely the same one as the one which has been marked with 1, 2, 3, 4,

Page 19865

1 whatever number we're up to right now. It's exactly the same map. It was

2 just for my own reference and I mean it is -- I mean it's a blow up of

3 what this map is here, which is a map provided from Colonel Zivanovic to

4 me.

5 Q. But I thought I saw a map similar to the one you marked pulled

6 out. Could I have a quick look at that. Perhaps it could be passed to

7 me.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, during this

9 time -- well that's not going to help us at this time with the issue of

10 videos is concerned.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, is there any markings on that map.

12 THE WITNESS: No, there are no markings on it at all it's totally

13 blank.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And it's exactly the same as the one you -- but it's

15 well -- to say a clean copy of it.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.

17 MR. IERACE: I'd like to have a look at it.


19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as I can

20 remember, there's only one thing and it's the Defence's stamp and perhaps

21 an exhibit number and that's all. Yes, thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you wouldn't mind the Chamber would

23 like to --

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you insist on seeing it, it's a blank

Page 19866

1 copy of the map.

2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Yesterday, you told us about the incident when Lord Carrington

4 went to the Presidency and there were two mortar shells and you've

5 mentioned either yesterday or today or both times that there was some

6 video.

7 A. It's on the videotapes which the Defence counsel have.

8 Q. Okay. So some BBC news footage of the incident; is that right?

9 A. It wasn't that and I was standing right at the front entrance of

10 the Presidency when those mortar bombs landed.

11 Q. At this stage I just want to ask you whether it's on the video or

12 not?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. You also today talked about a market shelling; is that somewhere

15 on the video as well?

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness...

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... A bomb

19 exploded that's how he explained the event.

20 THE WITNESS: It probably is. I mean the videotapes, as you are

21 aware, are quite extensive and I think that the market bombing is actually

22 on the videotape.


24 Q. I've looked at the video and there is a sequence where some people

25 are injured lying on the ground, the footage was apparently shot, it

Page 19867

1 seems, straight after they were injured. I think the benches for the

2 market appear to be concrete or something of that nature?

3 A. Yeah, that would be right.

4 Q. Do you remember when that incident was, approximately? Towards

5 the beginning of when you were there or towards the end --

6 A. I believe it was in July.

7 Q. Okay. And I think it appears twice in the videotapes, once

8 towards the beginning of the videotape where there's no sound, it seems to

9 be rough footage and then later on as a part of a report by a BBC

10 reporter; does that sound right?

11 A. That would probably be correct, yes.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. There is some repetition in those tapes.

14 Q. Yeah, that's all right. I think twice on the videotapes we see

15 news footages of mosques that have been hit and going by the commentary

16 one was at Butmir and the other one was at Ilidza; does that seem to

17 accord with your recollection?

18 A. That would be correct.

19 Q. And --

20 A. I mean there are mosques also in the old part of the city which

21 were also hit by tank rounds.

22 Q. Okay. Towards the beginning of one of the tapes, there's some

23 footage of some people in the cemetery and then there's the sound of some

24 weaponry being fired and then we see a -- I think an adult lying on the

25 ground?

Page 19868

1 A. Right.

2 Q. -- There's some screaming?

3 A. It was a lady, she was shot.

4 Q. Which cemetery was that, do you know?

5 A. That was in the -- I think the Kosevo one.

6 Q. Near the Kosevo hospital?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now on one of the tapes, the same tape which showed the mortar

9 position and I think field guns in the background?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And you were there.

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. When one plays that tape further on do we see the Lukavica

14 headquarters?

15 A. Yes, you do.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. You do.

18 Q. And at one stage, there was a group of men that walk through a

19 doorway and then there's an examination of a rifle or a machine-gun or

20 something of that nature.

21 A. That was at Nedzarici.

22 Q. That was at Nedzarici. Was that the Nedzarici barracks?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Anywhere on the tape that you remember, do we see the headquarters

25 building at Lukavica?

Page 19869

1 A. Yes, there is videotapes of that and that's a photo of me at

2 Lukavica barracks.

3 Q. Do you have many photos with you there?

4 A. No, I should have brought more of them with me. I've been

5 thinking about it the last three days and I actually should have brought a

6 lot more with me. But there is a lot of the video footage will show you

7 Lukavica barracks, it will show you -- I mean I can go through with

8 it -- through it with you. I have no problem with that at all.

9 Q. Okay. I'm just trying to understand what I have seen. At one

10 stage the -- whoever is holding the video camera is following a gentleman

11 making their way through a trench?

12 A. That's right, that's me.

13 Q. Okay. Are you filming or are you in front?

14 A. No I'm in front and that's at Nedzarici.

15 Q. How many floors did the headquarters have?

16 A. In Nedzarici?

17 Q. In Lukavica?

18 A. In Lukavica, it had two floors.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have nothing

20 against the fact that Mr. Ierace is speaking very rapidly but I think that

21 he is now trying to obtain information now which would allow him to work

22 on the cassettes and not start putting specific questions. We're going

23 too far.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a question you need for preparation this

25 evening or...? So it remains in the technical area rather than to go into

Page 19870

1 the substance.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, to help me to identify the

3 building from the tape. So I should be looking for a building which has

4 ground floor plus --

5 A. In Lukavica, there was only two storey buildings.

6 Q. Ground plus two?

7 A. No. No. Ground plus one.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. And the same thing was in Nedzarici as well. It was ground plus

10 one.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to help the

12 Prosecution because I can see, I can read the thoughts of the Prosecution,

13 I think, can I ask the witness one question in order to assist the

14 Prosecution?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's -- I think the experience is worth trying

16 but there is a certain risk so --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So to assist myself,

18 Mr. President, perhaps that would assist others too.

19 Very well. Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, isn't it true to say that in Lukavica, apart from the

21 barracks themselves, there were other buildings that could have had more

22 than two floors, as you said? On the rear?

23 A. Yeah, at the back, yes.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I think the experiment was -- okay, let's not comment

Page 19871

1 on the result of it.

2 MR. IERACE: I'm grateful to my friend.

3 Q. Would you mind if we had a look at the photographs that you've got

4 overnight if they were left with the Court would that be okay?

5 A. Yeah, I mean, I've only got a couple here.

6 Q. That's all right?

7 A. But I mean -- I should have -- I mean, I've got gazillions of them

8 but I didn't bring them with me. I have no objection to that at all.

9 Q. Okay. And do you have any other notes or anything else that you

10 think might be possibly helpful to us?

11 A. I think this would be extremely helpful for you and I'm very happy

12 to -- I mean I'm happy to hand over everything that I've got.

13 Q. What's the particular document that you think might be helpful?

14 A. This is a witness statement for the International War Crimes

15 Tribunal in The Hague.

16 Q. I have a copy.

17 A. You've got a copy. You don't need this one.

18 Q. Well, just the photographs and any other documents that you

19 wouldn't mind us looking at that you think would be helpful if they could

20 be provided to the registry?

21 A. I'm happy for you to look at anything. I have nothing to hide.

22 MR. IERACE: Nothing further for tonight, Mr. President.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, so that we are

24 not told that we haven't provided everything, can this witness perhaps

25 show you these three photographs that he has with him?

Page 19872

1 JUDGE ORIE: You have three photographs with you?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. I've just got the three here. That's

3 all.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Have you taken more with you here in The Hague or --


6 JUDGE ORIE: These are the three photographs.

7 THE WITNESS: These are the only three photographs I've got.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we just have a short look at it and I

9 think it's -- if it's only three, Mr. Ierace, then you at least can get an

10 impression that might --

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think it proves the Defence can't

12 read my mind. They read suspicion when there is none.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, sometimes I

14 read very well but on this occasion, my mind was badly read.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would show them to Mr. Ierace and then to

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin and see whether there is any need to have them copied

17 this evening or that we could wait number tomorrow morning because

18 Madam Registrar has --

19 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, these are

21 three photographs that we have already seen but they seem to be private

22 photographs and that's the reason why I didn't mention them. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, we will continue tomorrow. I have to tell

24 you and the parties that, where as I indicated before, that we could not

25 start until after an initial --

Page 19873

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: The information changes every second. I was informed

3 approximately one hour ago that there might be a possibility that we would

4 sit in another courtroom and could then start at quarter past 2.00. Now,

5 it seems to be highly uncertain or even impossible to sit in courtroom 2.

6 Nevertheless, if a courtroom becomes available, we'd like to use the time

7 on from quarter past 2.00 and therefore the parties are directed to keep

8 in close touch with the registry to find out at what time exactly we'll

9 start, preferably at 2.15 but it might be only at 3.15 or 3.30 p.m. And I

10 take it that the registry knows where to reach the parties.

11 Madam Registrar is instructed to keep the detention unit and all

12 the other units involved informed so that no one is unnecessarily

13 suffering from a late start.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just one other matter, I see there's

15 no difficulty in the Defence leaving the four tapes with the Prosecution

16 until the commencement of evidence tomorrow.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would prefer if we followed

18 the same procedure again. I'll speak to Mr. Ierace about it after we have

19 adjourned. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... For resolving

21 new problems. Yes, you will -- Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do want the four tapes. It's now

23 time for cross-examination, I've had two of them from -- in terms of

24 having time to look at them -- from end of evidence last night until 9.00

25 this morning and then the other two tapes since then. I think it's

Page 19874

1 appropriate that we have the four tapes.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that there still has been no

4 opportunity to copy them. Yes. Unfortunately, then, the Prosecution is

5 now preparing for cross-examination so they should be the first ones to

6 have the tapes available but I'm certain, Mr. Ierace, that if I don't know

7 what time at night Mr. Piletta-Zanin asks you to just have a quick look at

8 the tape two or three that you will certainly assist him. Yes. Then that

9 will then be a priority for the Prosecution this evening.

10 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And therefore, am I instructed

12 to hand over those two tapes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They are, at this moment, where exactly?

14 MR. IERACE: I have two and the Defence has two. I would be

15 grateful to have the four overnight.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and whenever you need one, you call Mr. Ierace

17 and he's awake as I understand also at 1.30 at night and then he brings it

18 to you.

19 You wanted to say something, Mr. Gray, we have to be quick because

20 the interpreters are really getting exhausted. We'll continue tomorrow

21 but if there is something very urgent please tell me.

22 THE WITNESS: No. I'm just saying to the Prosecution that if they

23 want to see some documents that I hold, then I am happy to --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you give full cooperation for

25 disclosure of whatever you have. May I instruct you, especially in view

Page 19875

1 of your cooperative attitude not to speak with anyone, neither Prosecution

2 nor the Defence about your testimony and your testimony is still about to

3 be given.

4 THE WITNESS: No, no, no.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until tomorrow in the afternoon,

6 time unknown, courtroom unknown.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

8 at 7.13 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday

9 the 20th day of February, 2003.