1 Monday, 24 February 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Is the Defence ready to
10 continue the re-examination of the witness?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, we are.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness,
13 Mr. Gray, into the courtroom.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Gray.
16 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: At least the weather did not oppose against having a
18 nice weekend. I hope you had.
19 Mr. Gray, may I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn
20 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
21 THE WITNESS: Of course.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Your re-examination will be continued. Please
23 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 WITNESS: RICHARD PAUL GRAY [Resumed]
25 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Gray.
2 A. Good day.
3 Q. Could you just bear with me for a few seconds? I'm referring to
4 your testimony of last Friday. Unfortunately, I can't refer to the page.
5 Do you remember that you were asked a certain number of questions
6 concerning the arrival of Mr. Douglas Hurd's convoy in the city of
7 Sarajevo and in particular, with regard to the problems of the elevations
8 from which the Serbs allegedly shelled? What you wanted to say at around
9 10.00 was something to do with what we call the primary in English, the
10 Prosecution interrupted you and said that they would return to that
11 subject, they never did so. What did you want to say exactly?
12 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please put a question to the
14 witness. There's no need to comment on the behaviour of the other party
15 while questioning the witness, if that is what you had in mind.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there's a second objection. You may
17 recall, Mr. President that on Friday in re-examination, Mr. Piletta-Zanin
18 sought to bring out in cross-examination this issue of the primaries which
19 was not a topic of cross-examination and I think, Mr. President, you ruled
20 that if Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked questions in relation to that issue, then
21 further cross-examination would be allowed so I don't know whether this
22 question is asked on that basis.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I
25 didn't make any kind of comment. All I did was indicate what happened so
1 that memory of the witness could be refreshed after an absence of 48 hours
2 and secondly, when the witness wanted to say something and when he wants
3 to be explicit it's necessary that he should do so. The Prosecution said
4 that they would return to that subject, they didn't, otherwise we would
5 have made the objection before, but I will leave the matter to you to
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Since the matter does not result from
10 cross-examination, you are not entitled to do that. But I will ask
11 Mr. Gray. When you told us about the primary, what would you like to add?
12 What did you have in mind to add?
13 THE WITNESS: Okay. When I was standing at the very front
14 entrance to the Presidency building, I clearly heard -- and I have taken
15 courses and -- in mortars. I clearly heard the primary of a mortar going
16 off, a very short way from where the actual impacts took place. A primary
17 is a -- it's exactly that, I mean, it is like a shotgun cartridge in the
18 bottom of the tail fin of a mortar bomb and then you have around it other
19 charges to actually make the mortar go further.
20 I clearly heard the primaries of these mortar bombs and they were
21 very, very close and they were very clearly directed at a particular
23 JUDGE ORIE: You could hear that they were directed to a
24 particular target; is that what you tell us?
25 THE WITNESS: I'm saying that they were so close that you could
1 hear -- you could actually hear the primary go off and then the bomb would
2 land a few seconds later.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the distance, approximately, if
4 you -- are you talking about 10 metres, 50 metres, 100 metres, 200 metres.
5 THE WITNESS: No, a primary would be -- a maximum distance for a
6 primary is 200 metres, that's it. End of story.
7 JUDGE ORIE: But at what distance did you hear it?
8 THE WITNESS: I heard it at approximately 50 metres away.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And in what direction.
10 THE WITNESS: It came -- if you have the Presidency building
11 there, and the front doors are there, and you have the main street here,
12 then they came from here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Do I take it that since you're using your left arm
14 that -- if you are standing in front of the building that you are pointing
15 in the westerly direction?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see anything?
18 THE WITNESS: Sorry?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see anything apart from hearing the primary?
20 THE WITNESS: I saw them land.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know, but firing.
22 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't actually see them, but they were just
23 down a street to the left of the Presidency building.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes and you say a couple of seconds later, after you
25 heard that, you tell us three, four, five, six?
1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, mortar bombs go straight up and they come
2 straight down.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes I'm not asking for -- I'm asking you for the
5 THE WITNESS: Maybe five, six seconds.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Five, six seconds.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's all.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But I do understand your answer that apart from
9 hearing it and seeing them landing that you didn't saw them being fired?
10 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. With regard to the same subject, at about 10.25, you answered a
14 question put to you by the Prosecution. You were asked how do you know
15 that the shell couldn't have and we're talking about the market, couldn't
16 have hit a person, couldn't have fallen on a person? My question is as
17 follows: If a shell hit a person, could it have left traces on the ground
18 which would be similar to the ones that you found at this market near the
19 PTT building? Have you under the question?
20 A. I have. There would be -- when a mortar bomb goes off, I mean
21 it -- sorry, it explodes, irrespective of whether or not it hits a person
22 or it hits the ground, only the actual bomb, the explosive part actually
23 explodes. The tail fin is always left quite separately.
24 Q. Mr. Gray, my question was -- my question, Colonel, was whether the
25 crater that you found at the market could have been caused by a shell that
1 exploded after hitting the head or the shoulder of someone who was there
2 or perhaps this is not possible?
3 A. It is totally impossible.
4 Q. Thank you. I'm now interested in this ambush, the ambush of the
5 UN convoy which came under fire from Butmir, we spoke about this at about
6 10.30, you remember the video. They mentioned fighting that had been
7 going on for days and you said that you had negotiated a cease-fire. My
8 question is do you remember who you negotiated the cease-fire with and do
9 you remember what the purpose of the cease-fire was?
10 A. I negotiated the cease-fire with both sides, specifically to bring
11 the convoy in.
12 Q. I'll stop you there, thank you. Once you had negotiated this
13 cease-fire with the two sides, when you negotiated, did they indicate any
14 hours, did they say that it would be in force from a certain hour in the
15 morning to a certain hour in the afternoon, et cetera?
16 A. We negotiated the cease-fire in order to bring the convoy in at a
17 specific time. From my memory, it was 10.00 in the morning. The convoy
18 had been sitting at Lukavica barracks overnight.
19 Q. Thank you. Witness, you said that in your opinion, that fire was
20 only coming from the Presidency side. My question is: Do you know
21 whether the enemy side responded and if so, what was targeted in this
23 A. The fire came from the --
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object on the basis that the witness
25 has not been asked to distinguish between what he saw firsthand and what
1 information came to him from other sources.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, would you please specify your question in such
3 a way that we know what's the basis of the knowledge on which the witness
4 answers the question.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I will be
6 glad to do so.
7 Q. If you are able to answer this question, could you tell us what
8 information you have about this subject? Can you tell us what the origin,
9 the source of your knowledge is?
10 A. The fire came from Butmir, it was very clearly from one side. It
11 did not come from the Serb side. The Presidency side had a camera crew
12 there --
13 Q. Colonel, I apologise. I will stop you there. My question is:
14 How did you know this? Because I don't think you were in the convoy
15 itself so what is the source of your information?
16 A. I was interviewed and I had extensive questioning after the event
17 about the presence of camera crews at the actual location, I have --
18 Q. Who asked you these questions, Colonel?
19 A. They came from UNPROFOR headquarters.
20 Q. Thank you. Was there a written report which was compiled after
21 this incident and which was submitted to the authorities; yes or no?
22 A. Yes, there was.
23 Q. Witness, I'll go back to the question. According to information
24 that you had at the time, do you know whether the Serbian forces responded
25 to the fire?
1 A. They did not.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, how do you know, Mr. Gray, because that
4 was the issue? How did you know that they did not respond, not being
6 THE WITNESS: Because I spoke to the people who actually -- the
7 people that were involved in the incident because fire was only coming
8 from one direction.
9 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean the people involved in the incident.
10 THE WITNESS: The French soldiers.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I thought that I
13 was quite clear.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... In which he
15 said that he was interviewed and that it was not that clear and it was not
16 specifically on the response.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
19 Q. I'd like to go back to the issue of Lukavica. This was at about
20 11:21. You were asked questions about the targets in Lukavica, whether
21 they were legitimate or not and then you were asked about windows in
22 Lukavica, you were asked details about the windows in Lukavica; do you
23 remember these questions?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. My question is do you know whether some windows in the Lukavica
1 barracks were protected in a certain manner and if they were, how were
2 they protected, et cetera?
3 A. The windows were not protected and a number of them -- I mean, we
4 had one meeting where I signed an agreement with Professor Koljevic and we
5 had to have the meeting in the corridor of the building because we were
6 receiving so much -- I mean the building was physically shaking and the
7 shrapnel was coming through the windows at that time.
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, at 12.06 I would like you to expand on what
9 you said. You said that you usually met General Galic when it was
10 necessary to establish a cease-fire. My question is with regard to
11 concluding a cease-fire, what was General Galic's attitude to cease-fires;
12 was he against it, was he in favour of it, et cetera?
13 A. He was most cooperative. I mean he was in favour of it.
14 Q. Thank you. How can you affirm this before this Trial Chamber?
15 A. He -- I mean, he enabled me to have a guided tour of all of the
16 weapons that were not under or currently under UN supervision. I mean, he
17 was most cooperative in doing all of this.
18 Q. Thank you. With regard to this subject, the Prosecution asked you
19 a question which was: How do you know that they showed you all their
20 heavy weapons? My question in relation to this matter is: Could you have
21 discovered these heavy weapons that you weren't aware of at the time if
22 the Serbian forces hadn't spontaneously pointed them out to you?
23 A. We had observers in a number of positions. I established beyond
24 the first five positions that we had for the Serbian side, we established
25 another two positions. This was in spite of the fact that I had lost a
1 number of observers because they had been wounded and we were aware,
2 beyond the ones that were agreed -- I mean they showed us, I mean they
3 agreed to show us these extra positions. We were aware that there were a
4 number of other ones but they were very, very small and -- I mean we were
5 aware of where the firing was coming from. We knew that. We could see
6 it. We can hear it.
7 Q. Thank you. Colonel, in relation to the issue of the PTT building,
8 you said that the building consisted of three basements; is that correct?
9 A. True.
10 Q. In your testimony, and on the tape that we saw, we had the
11 impression that there was a higher level with a window and I'd like you to
12 explain to us briefly something about how the land lies there because
13 normally in cellars, in basements, there are no windows.
14 A. The PTT was built up on a level. In order to actually enter the
15 front entrance of the PTT, you had to drive up a ramp on to a parking
16 level and that explains the three levels that were actually below it
17 because the levels went down and the front entrance was raised up. I wish
18 I had brought photos to actually explain this but they are on the
20 Q. Colonel, am I to understand that the building is on a slope which
21 allows different levels on different sides of the building?
22 A. The building was -- the subbasement levels were deliberately built
23 and the workshop level was obviously one of them, but they also had a
24 parking area under there as well. But the ramp that you can see in one of
25 the videos that I provided goes up and then you have the main building
1 which goes up for five storeys, there is another part of the building
2 which goes up for three storeys, but underneath the building, there are
3 three storeys.
4 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Colonel, you told us that Holiday Inn was
5 also used by snipers and hence my question: How do you know that? How
6 did they hide there and what did they use for this, what do you know about
7 that? And what did they target; do you know that?
8 A. They targeted human beings --
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't have time to check the
10 transcripts thoroughly but my recollection is that the manner in which the
11 Holiday Inn came up was the witness' attention was drawn to a building
12 which he'd earlier seen on the video and at first he thought I was
13 referring to the Holiday Inn, his attention was then directed to what we
14 know to be the parliament building. If that's the case, if that's the
15 reference my learned colleague is referring to, then because it arose on
16 the basis of a misunderstanding by the witness, in my respectful
17 submission, that's not a proper topic for cross-examination because I
18 then, having directed the witness to the appropriate building, did not
19 pursue it, his misunderstanding.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to save time
22 which is available, let us move on to another issue.
23 Q. Witness, with regard to that tape that the Prosecution mentioned,
24 one could see people reacting after an attack and my question is as
25 follows: If the purpose -- if the attack is performed with incendiaries
1 and its purpose is to destroy with fire, what is usually called a sniper
2 nest, according to your military experience, wouldn't have been legitimate
3 to stop the enemy side to try to protect its sniper nest from such fire,
4 that is, by distinguishing the fire?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, correction. By extinguishing the fire?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do you understand my question?
7 JUDGE ORIE: In the translation, it is said by distinguishing the
8 fire and I do understand that it's extinguishing the fire.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, you can
10 see it on the screen, Mr. President.
11 Q. Witness, did you understand the question or shall I rephrase it?
12 If I want to destroy a sniper nest, and if the enemy side wishes to
13 protect it by extinguishing the fire as a result of an incendiary bullet,
14 is it possible to prevent that? Is it possible to do something to prevent
16 A. The fire that happened against the building that we saw in the
17 videotape, as far as I understand, came from the Presidency side.
18 Q. Witness, sorry, I'm asking you a question which is based on your
19 technical knowledge. Try, please, to follow me. If a side, whichever,
20 destroys a sniper nest by using incendiaries and if the other side wishes
21 to protect or to preserve this nest by extinguishing the fire, is it
22 possible to prevent such a firefighter's action by further action, by
23 further fire?
24 A. Yes, it would be.
25 Q. Thank you. I return to another question. The Ukranian Battalion,
1 you were asked in relation to the commentary, again on a story and you
2 were asked if you realised that it was incoming fire at that point or
3 rather a little bit before that, before you did not wait for the end of
4 the question, but within the same context, you wanted to draw attention to
5 the barracks in relation to the topography, to the exact locations, what
6 can you -- what was it that you wanted to tell us and what was that?
7 A. The Ukranians were based in Marsal Tito barracks and it was a very
8 unfortunate position for the Ukranian Battalion. They were immediately
9 targeted not by the Serbs, but they were targeted by the Presidency forces
10 and I go back to what I said before, the UN selection of battalions to --
11 Q. Witness, sorry, no, no, I'm sorry but I have to interrupt you.
12 But what we want to know is the topography. Why did you want to speak to
13 us about the location of the barracks?
14 A. The barracks are important because they are in the very centre of
15 Sarajevo and the location is very important because the -- the Serbs had
16 very little visibility of the actual barracks themselves. They were
17 totally blinded from the east and the west and the north and the only
18 place they could actually see them was from the south.
19 Q. You mean that there was no direct visibility?
20 A. Only from the south. Only from the south.
21 Q. Thank you. Witness, there were -- there was talk about night
22 attacks and you were asked if you heard comments which spoke about
23 reprisals, so my question is as follows: Is it legitimate, militarily, if
24 an attack is launched at night to endeavour to stop it by gunfire? Be it
25 mortar or artillery fire which happens at night and in order to establish
1 exactly -- in view of the forces which are confronting you and which are
2 involved in this attack?
3 A. It is legitimate.
4 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd like us now to focus on what the
5 Prosecution called your theories regarding Muslims. In one of the
6 questions -- one of his questions, the Prosecutor clearly indicated that
7 you had some theories concerning the Muslims. When you used the term
8 "Muslims," within a particular context of the Sarajevo war, in which sense
9 did you use it; can you tell us that?
10 A. I used it in the sense that the Muslims were the predominant
11 element in the military factions who were fighting the Serbs.
12 Q. Thank you. And the Presidency side, the so-called Presidency
13 side, was it or not usually called that, that is, the Muslim party or the
14 Muslims during your tour of duty in Sarajevo; is that how they were
15 referred to usually?
16 A. They were normally referred to as the Presidency. That's why we
17 had the Papa side which was Presidency and then we had the Lima side which
18 was the Serb side and the Lima side was purely based on the fact that the
19 headquarters was based at Lukavica.
20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Do you have any theory for or against the
21 Muslims; in other words, would you have a theory which would be racist or
22 not for or against the Muslims? Do you uphold any such theory?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. What do you mean?
25 A. This -- I'm sorry, this is extremely controversial, but I have to
1 say the Muslims were totally committed to expelling -- I won't go into the
2 more graphic ethnically cleansing, but they wanted to expel the Serbs from
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was their total purpose. They did a very good
4 job of it. They managed to attract international intervention and they
5 managed to win a war that they could not do by themselves.
6 Q. Thank you. Witness, my question in French was somewhat different
7 but I believe -- is your answer -- are you a racist or do you support --
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question has been clearly
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question
11 wasn't -- that was not my question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The question was to some extent unclear at least in
13 the English translation because -- I'll ask the witness about it.
14 Mr. Gray, you told us what, in your view, were the aims, whether
15 they were achieved, aims of the Muslims. Do you take this view on the
16 basis of what you saw happening or do you have certain ideas about why
17 people of the Muslim religion would do these kind of things?
18 THE WITNESS: Sir, I have the view from bitter experience. I have
19 seen what the Muslims and the Croats were doing. I have totally
20 contradictory evidence about one specific incident which I am more than
21 happy to relate to you in Court, but the fact is that from my time in the
22 former Yugoslavia, from the 23rd of March until the 1st of December when I
23 left Yugoslavia, my total conviction and understanding is that in Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina, the total aim and purpose of the Presidency forces or the
25 Muslim forces, whatever, was to expel --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
2 THE WITNESS: -- The Serbs.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You're now repeating what you said before. Let me
4 ask you, when you came to Bosnia, did you have a neutral opinion as to
5 Croats, Serbs, or Muslims or what was your view on these three ethnic
6 groups when arriving?
7 THE WITNESS: I had no knowledge of them whatsoever. I had been
8 given a script of the background to the 1991 war but I had -- I had no
9 formed opinion on --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That answers my question. Was that different
11 when you left and I'm not talking about what you saw people doing, but
12 your opinion as to the ethnic or religious background that would cause
13 people to do the things you observed them doing?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. It was definitely different.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you explain to me and to the Chamber what? I'm
16 asking you the following, as a matter of fact I will try to make a
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You can see that someone who comes from Spain, for
20 example, or a group of people coming from Spain behaving very badly. That
21 does not necessarily mean that Spanish people --
22 THE WITNESS: Are bad.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- are bad or are inclined to do bad things. So you
24 came with a relatively -- I would say neutral or a blank opinion as to the
25 three ethnic groups you mentioned: Croats, Muslims, Serbs, you saw, as
1 you told us, the Muslim forces pursue aims of expelling Serbs, and I do
2 understand that you consider this to be a bad behaviour. What, if any,
3 change this made in your opinion as to Muslim people? I'm asking you to
4 keep in mind what I said about Spanish people misbehaving, I'm not saying
5 that Spanish people misbehave but it's just as an example. Were you just
6 impressed but what they had done or did it change your opinion on what you
7 could expect from Muslim people?
8 THE WITNESS: Sir, in my five and a half months in Sarajevo, I had
9 11 of my officers wounded. Thankfully, none were killed.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you prefer to have a short break before continuing
11 your answer, because I see that it raises quite some emotion ...
12 THE WITNESS: I'll continue. I -- I'm sorry that I have to -- I
13 mean my opinion is based on experience and it was a very, very bitter
14 experience. I was spat at, stoned, shot at, shelled. I had people
15 making -- well, I mean, not nice gestures towards me, and I was there to
16 try and help them. That was all I was there to do and yet that was the
17 response I got. And so yes, that definitely formed an opinion of the
18 people who I was actually trying to help. On the other side, the Serb
19 side, I had nothing but cooperation and assistance.
20 When five of my observers got wounded in one incident by a 122
21 shell which came from the Croatian side, the Serbs actually assisted -- I
22 mean they went to a Serb hospital in Lukavica barracks and they were
23 assisted there and from there, they were evacuated out to Zagreb. But, I
24 mean, I had nothing but cooperation from the Serb side. I was never
25 threatened, never shot at. It was only -- I mean good cooperation and so
1 if you want to talk about forming an opinion and a feeling for the
2 situation, then that is what I have to say.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you briefly describe, since you told us that
4 when arriving, you had a neutral position, when leaving, after what you
5 told us to be bitter experiences, could you describe what your feeling in
6 view of people of Muslim ethnicity or Muslim religion was?
7 THE WITNESS: May I give you some background?
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't mind, I would prefer to first hear what
9 your opinion was when you left and of course if you'd like to explain why
10 you formed this opinion, you can do so.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. I was very bitter about the treatment I had
12 received by the Muslims and by the Croats while I was in Sarajevo because
13 of the fact that they tried to kill me on many occasions and that has a
14 certain effect on you. But I go back to the background and say that in
15 1975 and -- to 1977 I lived in Singapore where there are a large number of
16 Muslims and that's fine and 1985 to 1987 I lived in Malaysia where there
17 are a large number of Muslims. I have no real problem with Muslims. It
18 was to do -- in terms of Sarajevo and Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was more to
19 do with the politics that were happening at that particular time and yes,
20 I was extremely upset at the fact that the UN in general were being
21 targeted by the people that they were actually there to try and help.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. There is two things we need to clarify. You told us about your
25 bitter experience, Colonel, and you told us how -- that you were treated
1 impossibly by the Muslim and the Croat side so my question is as follows:
2 Would you -- do you treat them in the same way, do you put the two of them
3 on the same level? And I'm referring to the treatment that you received
4 from the -- those two sides.
5 A. Yes, I do and -- no, same level.
6 Q. Thank you. Witness, this will be my very last question: When
7 some questions were put to you about journalists and in particular about a
8 certain commentator, you said, and I'm quoting you from memory, [In
9 English] They got it wrong on several occasions or a certain number of
10 times," [Interpretation] You said something to that effect. Do you
11 remember that?
12 A. Yes, I do, definitely.
13 Q. My question is: Can you tell us exactly what you meant and
14 perhaps give us some specific examples where something said by a
15 journalist was contradicted by the actual situation, the actual facts
16 after an investigation had been carried out, for example?
17 A. The journalists came, they were tourists.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object, the questioning in
19 cross-examination related to particular journalists and a particular
20 institution they did not relate to journalists per se, journalists of a
21 particularly high reputation.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes and no, because we've
25 spoken about two journalists very frequently, a male journalist and a
1 female journalist and I think that the problem is to know what the witness
2 thinks since one attempted to contradict him in regard to the statements
3 made by both journalists.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Not in general
5 whether the --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm referring to what we spoke
7 about on Friday, these two particular journalists.
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The question.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, in relation to the videos we saw on Friday, you said that
11 very often, journalists committed errors, what did you mean when you said
12 that and could you provide us with examples? Thank you.
13 A. The journalists made assumptions. They assumed that fire was
14 coming from one side or the other and in many cases that we observed and
15 we had observers everywhere on both sides, they got it wrong, and that is
16 why I find the reports that were made by very respected journalists to be
17 quite insulting to the -- the whole effort of the UN in Sarajevo. They
18 got it wrong and we were in a far better position because we had been
19 there for months. They came in for a few days or a few weeks and then
20 they left --
21 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. The answer does nothing to
22 address the concerns I raised earlier in which you ruled in my favour and
23 that is emphasized by the reference to journalists being there for a few
24 days or a few weeks, which seems to be a reference to journalists in a
25 very different category of those that we heard from in the video clips.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, after you've
2 responded, I'd like to get the witness back to the subject of your
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the idea. I
5 wanted to ask the witness whether what he said also concerns those two
6 persons. That's all I wanted to clarify.
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... You were asked
8 to give examples of where the two journalists from which we saw video
9 footings where they were wrong in what they reported, so not in general
10 but these two, for example, their report on this and this incident was
11 wrong for that and that reason.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay. The -- I'll give you one specific incident
13 and that is the so-called shelling of the market. They got it wrong
14 there. I mean I had very experienced officers who went and examined the
15 scene and there was no evidence to actually give any credence to the fact
16 that the market had been shelled or mortared. They found evidence that
17 indicated that a bomb had been placed there --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Gray, let me interrupt you. You have
19 explained to us that your experts established that it was a bomb and not a
20 shell that landed. So what you say to us is the BBC reporters were wrong
21 there because they ignored that it was a bomb and that they reported that
22 it was a shell.
23 THE WITNESS: True.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
1 Q. If you have another example, could you provide us with it? If
2 not, it doesn't matter.
3 A. Yes, I can. There was one incident, it happened at two minutes
4 past 8.00 p.m. On the 13th of July and the -- there had been a number
5 of --
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. IERACE: I would be grateful if it would be clarified if this
9 relates to either Martin Bell or Kate Adie.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, are you giving an example in respect of
11 Mr. Bell or Ms. Adie.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall which one of them, I think it was
13 probably Kate Adie.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It was BBC.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. And what happened was that at two
16 minutes past 8.00 on the 13th of July, there were children, teenagers and
17 we had Canadian soldiers who were throwing sweets, lollies, I don't know
18 whatever you call them, candy, from the top -- the very top of the PTT
19 where we had the observation post established and they were throwing them
20 down to these teenagers down below us. And at two minutes past 8.00 on
21 the 13st of July we had 13 and 16 mortar bombs exploded, they were 82
22 millimetre, the whole building obviously shook, the mortar bombs landed
23 from a distance of two metres from the PTT building to a distance of 75
24 metres from the PTT building. I've got the report in my briefcase. We
25 did a crater analysis of those bombs and the actual report that I sent to
1 the headquarters in Zagreb was from the direction of fire that it came
2 from and taking it out to the maximum possible distance of 82 millimetre
3 mortar, it went Muslim, Serb, Muslim, Serb. So we could not tell who
4 actually fired those mortar bombs, we could not tell. We could not in all
5 honesty say who fired them, but the BBC certainly did. They laid the
6 blame clearly on the Serbs.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So you tell us that the reporting was wrong because
8 there was no proper basis for reporting that the 82 millimetre mortar
9 shells had been fired by, I take it, then the BBC reported that it was
10 from the Serbian side.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
13 Q. Colonel, before I thank you for your testimony, could you tell us
14 what the consequences of these shots were in terms of the casualties, in
15 terms of the number of dead if there were any?
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object, the basis is relevance.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, may I ask you where we are -- we
18 shifted now from wrongly reporting to one of these examples and the
19 consequences, I do not mind but I would like you to be aware that it has
20 hardly anything to do with the cross-examination. But the witness may
21 answer the question.
22 Mr. Gray, do you know what, in terms of human lives the
23 consequences of the shelling were?
24 THE WITNESS: I personally carried off the street a teenage boy
25 who had both his legs blown off below the knee. I also held --
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object and I wish to say something
2 further in relation to the objection in the absence of the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, may I ask you to escort the witness for
4 one second out of the courtroom.
5 Mr. Gray.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might we move into private session?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have visitors in the public gallery, we
10 first would have to ask them to leave the public gallery since we cannot
11 shield that off when we are in private session.
12 [Private session]
12 Pages 20099 to 20102 – redacted – private session
1 [Open session]
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is the public gallery open again? It should be
4 certain that those who were following the proceedings are in the position
5 to come to the public gallery again. Yes.
6 Mr. Gray, you have been asked a question about casualties on an
7 occasion where soldiers had been giving sweets to -- well, children,
8 teenagers. You have been asked about the casualties and we noticed that
9 this, of course, might cause you to, going back to that time, to undergo
10 emotional moments again. In your absence, one of the aspects we have
11 discussed is whether there's any disagreement between the parties as to
12 whether kids had been killed at that occasion. The parties do not
13 disagree on that so therefore, also in order to save you to undergo again
14 these emotions, you don't have to answer that question unless you would
15 say it's totally wrong what you say, kids were not killed, but I take it
16 that you are telling us that how you personally experienced what happened
17 to these kids.
18 We are not asking you to go any further because we are aware of
19 what that could mean to you and since the parties do not disagree, Court
20 will assume that at that occasion, young people were killed, since the
21 parties do not disagree.
22 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've finished
24 with this answer. I just wanted to thank the witness for his testimony.
25 JUDGE ORIE: He's not finished today, there might be some
1 questions for you both from the Bench and from the Prosecution but we'll
2 first have a break until 11.00.
3 THE WITNESS: Can I just make one comment about that particular
4 incident? I mean I think the Defence counsel were talking about
5 misreporting by the media.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: This was reported very clearly as being an attack by
8 the Serbs. We were there. We did the investigation, and we couldn't
9 determine because of --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, you told us that. You said it was Serb,
11 Muslim, Serb, Muslim, so you could not establish whereas the report did.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We have not seen the report but we do understand
14 your testimony to be that they gave information --
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before we break, the witness did
16 mention that he had a report in relation to this incident. I don't know
17 that I've seen that report perhaps I could have a look at it over the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is there -- did you bring any report with you?
20 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't bring that particular report with me,
21 I'm sorry.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is it your report to Zagreb that you indicated. But
23 you haven't brought it with you?
24 THE WITNESS: No, a report was made to Zagreb about the actual
25 incident and it was then passed on to the UN headquarters in New York but
1 I -- I think I probably got it on a computer disc which the Defence have,
2 I mean I've given them five computer discs.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But it's not something you could retrieve
5 MR. IERACE: Just to clarify that, Mr. President, five computer
6 discs, we've seen one and perhaps the number of videos could be clarified
7 because I still haven't been able to find on the four video discs two of
8 the passages given to us by the Defence if we could just clarify that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: How many discs did you give to the Defence? You said
11 THE WITNESS: There were two CDs, one of which has got -- because
12 all of the work was done on WordPerfect 5.1 at the time in 1992, okay.
13 There is one CD which has got actual WordPerfect on it and then there is
14 another CD which has got a copy of the five computer discs that -- three
15 and a half floppy discs that I've given to them as well and I believe I
16 actually gave them five videotapes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me just -- first you said one CD with all
18 the WordPerfect 5.1 --
19 THE WITNESS: True.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- files. Yes, that's what we used in these times,
21 isn't it? Then you said five floppy discs transferred into another CD.
22 What would be on that other CD? Would that be the same or different,
23 would it be text would it be --
24 THE WITNESS: No, it is all text and --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Text created by yourself.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's all from me.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: And there is one of the --
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you would allow me just to interrupt you. Is that
5 text on the second CD and the first one being with WordPerfect 5.1 files,
6 that second CD would that be different text from the first one you just
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, it will be and there is one extra --
9 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us in what format, what under what
10 software these texts are created.
11 THE WITNESS: They are all in WordPerfect 5.1.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So on both CDs, we would find WordPerfect 5.1 files
13 but with a different content.
14 THE WITNESS: No, the first CD has got the actual programme file
15 for WordPerfect 5.1.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the second one --
17 THE WITNESS: And the second one has got four of the five discs
18 actually recorded on to it, transferred on to it because I wanted to make
19 sure that there were two copies and there is one, a further fifth disc
20 which is not on the CD.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I will repeat, one CD with the WordPerfect
22 5.1 programme software, another CD on which is transferred the content of
23 four floppy discs containing WordPerfect 5.1 files, and a fifth floppy
24 disc not being transferred on that CD-ROM but still available?
25 THE WITNESS: True.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then about videotapes, how many did you provide
2 to the Defence?
3 THE WITNESS: I recall that I provided five videotapes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you still have copies of them?
5 THE WITNESS: No I just brought them with me and --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Not four, five.
7 THE WITNESS: I believe there were five.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I invite the parties to discuss during the
9 break what is -- what has been disclosed, what has not been disclosed.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President. I actually raised that with the
11 Defence this morning. I'm assured that they only received four. I would
12 be grateful if we could have access to those four videotapes as soon as
13 possible when they're no longer needed in Court so that we can make copies
14 of them in order for us to discover if they are on those tapes or not.
15 That's an issue we'll have to deal with when it's witness leaves but at
16 least if we can have access to copy them.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes I think that would be a fair request and I see
18 the Defence is nodding yes, so the Chamber expects the parties to
19 cooperate in this respect.
20 Mr. Gray, we'll not adjourn until 11.00, but until five minutes
21 past 11.00. Thank you.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we discussed
1 the matter of exhibits with the Prosecution during the break. What we can
2 say here that when the witness gave us four floppy discs, that is true,
3 but the information that we received from him at the time was that these
4 floppy discs were taken over to CDs and we were able to open these
5 floppy -- we were not able to open these floppy discs perhaps because of
6 the programme or perhaps because there was something else there. We do
7 not know. But at any rate, those floppy discs that we still have them and
8 they are of course at the disposal of the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Presumably still in the hands of the witness.
10 MR. IERACE: No, I think the Defence is saying they've got them
11 and we weren't told about them before today. We were given four videos
12 and one CD. We were told the Defence couldn't open the CD. We managed to
13 open it and we gave the Defence copies of all of the documents that we
14 were able to obtain from the CD.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first check whether I rightly understood
16 the observations by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 It's not entirely clear to me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm just looking
18 to the English transcript at this moment. You said that you received four
19 floppy discs.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Four or five, four or five.
21 We need to check it because I cannot really tell you off the cuff how
23 JUDGE ORIE: They are taken over to a CD, did you do that or did
24 the witness provide you with the CD?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, the CD is one of the two
1 that we just talked about. At the time we understood that all of the
2 material had been copied to those CDs.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The case and
4 that therefore, the one who is in possession of the fifth floppy
5 disc -- yes, Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Prosecution was only given one CD.
7 It seems the Defence is saying they received from the witness two CDs and
8 five floppy discs.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One of the CDs as the witness explained to us is just
11 WordPerfect 5.1 which is a programme which is not generally installed on
12 computers anymore as it was in 1992 so one is just the programme software
13 and the other CD is assumed to contain the content of the four floppy
14 discs but not of the fifth and so the most important thing now is to find
15 out where is the fifth floppy disc?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We shall check. Perhaps there
17 are, indeed, five and we shall check whether this last one, whether -- we
18 are not sure whether there are four or five floppy discs and whether
19 perhaps they are here in The Hague.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Did not take the
21 effort to provide the fifth floppy disc if you have it because you
22 expected it to be on the second CD-ROM.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed that was the
24 information that we believe to have received, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And the second issue is about the videotapes. Is
1 there any comparison as to what the Defence thinks it has and what the
2 Prosecution thinks it has?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, from what we
4 know, on the tapes that we saw in full or in part, there is frequent
5 repetition. There are things which are repeated, and what we have done
6 was put -- place all these tapes to the Prosecution, and we shall do it in
7 the afternoon so they can go through all of them and check them.
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Perhaps not yet
9 settled but at least this issue being proceeded we could then continue
10 with the examination of the witness.
11 Mr. Ierace, since you asked to cross-examine the witness on those
12 issues that have come up for the first time in the re-examination, perhaps
13 it would be proper to start with that and then hear whether there are any
14 questions from the Bench and then the parties then get an opportunity to
15 respond to -- if necessary, to put additional questions on those issues
16 raised by the Bench.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. IERACE: Just while the witness is being brought in, might I
20 suggest a procedure in relation to the tendering of the videotapes?
21 If -- I understand that one of Mr. Gray's original videotapes has already
22 been tendered. If the other one is formally tendered, then after the
23 Prosecution has made copies, they could supplant the tendered ones which
24 could then be returned to Mr. Gray by mail or however is convenient.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think
1 at least for the Defence we tendered the original of a tape but we are not
2 quite sure. Perhaps the Prosecution didn't quite understand us because
3 what we said was that we had made a selection and presented -- that we
4 produced it on one tape with eight or nine different fragments which is
5 not the original provided by Mr. Gray. We simply copied it to a different
7 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that this -- that you intend to tender this
8 videotape containing those elements that you thought relevant from the
9 tapes provided to you by Mr. Gray.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think what's happened is that the
11 original Gray tape with the brown Mercedes clip has been tendered. We
12 have made a tape with just that clip so already, that could replace the
13 full videotape that Madam Registrar presently has.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. IERACE: I think the important thing is that we are able to
16 retain the two original BBC tapes until such time as they are copied and
17 then they can be returned. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it -- but that's apart from tendering
19 these tapes, that they should be copied so that we have a copy of the full
20 Gray tapes available for consultation for the parties and that you are
21 going to tender the extracts thought to be relevant.
22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I also ask you, the full version of the -- what I
24 would call the night attack on the Presidency parliamentary building, is
25 that already prepared?
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the best copy that we've been able to
2 make of the relevant part of that segment is still of a very poor quality,
3 in particular, there are some horizontal lines which appear on the copy
4 and which do not appear on the original which is quite confusing when
5 one's looking at the tracer fire.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. IERACE: I would therefore respectfully suggest that you look
8 at the relevant part of that clip on the original Gray tape. We have
9 prepared a full transcript of that part of the clip; in other words, the
10 shooting of the parliamentary building and I might add while I'm on my
11 feet, over the weekend we've already prepared a translation of the brown
12 Mercedes clip, all of that clip.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The problem, Mr. President, is
15 to know what will be finally be tendered. If it is only the night attack
16 then one cannot tender obviously --
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I take it that
18 a -- perhaps in the near future a better copy of that segment can be made
19 but at least we'd like to see in this court at this moment the -- that
20 part of the original. Could it be identified for the technical booth if
21 it could be played that we know where to find it.
22 MR. IERACE: I think we've made some identification of that, I
23 used the word "translation" of the brown Mercedes clip, translation should
24 have been transcription.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes this transcript is then ready to be translated by
1 the interpreters if necessary.
2 Mr. Ierace, in order to avoid a lot of confusion and -- could you
3 tell us what subjects you consider to be appropriate to address in a
4 further cross-examination.
5 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The issue of the primaries, that
6 is if I can refer to it in that shorthand fashion.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. IERACE: And secondly the witness has said for the first time
9 that in relation to the -- what we might call the French convoy, the
10 convoy had been sitting at Lukavica barracks over night and was due to
11 come into Sarajevo at 10.00 a.m. and that is -- that stands contradicted
12 by Kate Adie who referred to the French convoy coming in at dusk the night
13 before so I wish to question him about that.
14 Mr. President, in relation to the events of the 13th of July,
15 naturally the Prosecution will seek to obtain from the BBC a copy of their
16 report in relation to that incident. There are some questions I could ask
17 of the witness as to how the teenagers came to be there, I can tell you
18 what I understand to be the situation. That could turn out to be relevant
19 to the contents of the BBC clip. Of course by the time we get that,
20 Mr. Gray will no longer be here. The questions I would put to him on that
21 issue are drawn from General MacKenzie's book so an alternative may be if
22 we get the BBC report, we then tender that with General MacKenzie's
23 account as taken from his book.
24 If you like, Mr. President, I can tell you in summary form what
25 that account is.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I've got one problem if you would do so,
2 that is, that if at a later stage the witness for whatever reason would be
3 recalled, that it's on the public transcript what we --
4 MR. IERACE: We can do it in private session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I heard that
7 the Prosecution intended to do two things. First, concerning the incident
8 of the humanitarian convoy, the contradiction between the daybreak and the
9 position of the witness was treated during the cross-examination by
10 Mr. Ierace and I -- if I remember that the witness has said something, I'm
11 not quoting, but I think that that is what he said and that he said
12 clearly when that was. That is quite clear.
13 As for the PTT incident, we, at the Defence, appreciate in
14 particular, that is, we bore in mind the personality of this witness. We
15 saw him. To go back to that would really be achieving again, the same
16 effect and again the Defence would like to spare this witness any further
17 distress, thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The witness
19 testified, as far as I can see: "Okay, I actually arranged for a
20 cease-fire with the warring parties. You can see from the video pictures
21 I mean it was an -- an arranged for a specific time for that convoy to
22 actually come through. You can see from the pictures that it was broad
23 daylight and the convoy was deliberately targeted, I mean it was clearly
24 identifiable," so the witness says that it appears from the video does
25 this broad daylight so there seems there is a possible contradiction and I
1 think it could be clarified in one or two questions so that would not be
2 something we -- the Chamber would not allow.
3 And then as far as the second issue is concerned, are we in --
4 THE REGISTRAR: Open session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We turn it to private session so will that Mr. Ierace
6 can explain what -- because the if the parties agree on how the teenagers
7 got there --
8 [Private session]
12 Page 20116 – redacted – private session
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session, again. So could you tell us
11 whether you know anything specific about why these youngsters were there?
12 THE WITNESS: It was a beautiful sunny day in July, obviously, and
13 the youngsters were -- I mean they were teenagers between 16 and 18, I
14 would say. The Canadian troops who were actually on top of the fifth
15 floor of the PTT -- I mean there was no shelling, there was no -- no war
16 activity actually happening at the time and that's why it was unusual.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. IERACE: It may assist I think the witness may have
20 misunderstood the question not so much why they were on the ground outside
21 the building.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Mr. Gray, were they accidentally gathered
23 together there or was this group constituted in one way or another of
24 which you have any knowledge?
25 THE WITNESS: No, they were accidentally there.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I then confront you with what
2 General MacKenzie writes in a book that is that these youngsters were of a
3 group that was exchanged Serbians against -- let me just read it to you,
4 "What made matters worse was that most of the teenagers had come to the
5 PTT in a population exchange organised earlier in the day by Richard Gray.
6 He had delivered some Serbs to Lukavica in exchange had brought back a
7 load of people including the teenagers who wished to return to downtown
9 THE WITNESS: True.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's true. So they were not accidentally there but
11 they were there as a result of an exchange of population.
12 THE WITNESS: But I had brought them back earlier on in the day so
13 I mean there was a time lapse between me bringing them back and them
14 actually being at the PTT.
15 JUDGE ORIE: At what time did you -- how long did they stay there
16 before the shells fell.
17 THE WITNESS: I had brought them back earlier on several hours
18 beforehand but I -- one of the young women who was actually killed, I
19 physically recognised her clothing, I mean I recognised her, I mean she
20 was quite badly -- I mean she was killed. But I mean this happened at
21 8.00 at night and the exchange that took place happened earlier on in the
22 day and maybe mid-day, very early afternoon. I mean maybe 1.00 in the
23 afternoon. But I mean that happened -- a number of hours before this
24 actually happened.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Gray.
1 Mr. Ierace has one or more questions for you.
2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ierace:
4 Q. Mr. Gray, in relation to the use of primaries when firing mortars,
5 is it your understanding that the purpose of the primary is to ignite the
6 charges however many there may be, in the tube?
7 A. They are actually around the tail fin of the actual mortar.
8 Q. Yes. And have you ever fired a mortar on its primary alone?
9 A. Yes, I have.
10 Q. Whereabouts did you do that?
11 A. I did that in Waiouru in New Zealand.
12 Q. Could you please spell that for the benefit of the transcribers?
13 A. It's W-a-i-o-u-r-u.
14 Q. Was it explained to you that a mortar should only be fired on its
15 primary in an emergency?
16 A. Yes. A primary -- I mean you only fire a mortar on primary when
17 you are under immediate attack.
18 Q. Yeah. And correct me if I am wrong, that's because they are not
19 nearly so accurate when fired just on the primary and there is a degree,
20 an element or degree of danger when firing on the primary?
21 A. They are more accurate when they are on primary. They have a
22 shorter distance in terms of the impact but they are actually more
23 accurate because the more charges you use with a mortar, the further it
24 goes, the higher it goes, the less accurate it is at the other end.
25 Q. I'd like to suggest to you that your understanding is quite
1 incorrect. Specifically when a mortar is fired on its primary it is far
2 less accurate than if it is fired with charges.
3 A. That is incorrect.
4 Q. Did you tell General MacKenzie what you have told us in court in
5 relation to the primaries; in other words, that you heard two sounds that
6 you concluded were primaries seconds before the two mortars landed?
7 A. I believe I did.
8 Q. When did you do that?
9 A. I did that immediately after, I mean as I told you in the Court on
10 Friday, I told him immediately after the meeting, I went back and I made a
11 verbal report to him and then I made a written report.
12 Q. And I suppose at the time, you appreciated how important that
13 information was because in your mind it was conclusive proof that it had
14 been -- the mortars had been fired --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have the
17 impression that we are moving to another subject which has been dealt with
18 extensively, that of the relationship between the witness and
19 General MacKenzie after this incident and we're no longer discussing the
20 technique involved in primaries.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Is not -- has
22 not come up I think new in cross-examination -- in re-examination,
23 Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this relates specifically to the
25 primaries whether he told General MacKenzie that he had heard the
1 primaries --
2 JUDGE ORIE: That answer has been given if I'm correct, the
3 witness said "I believe I did".
4 MR. IERACE: Yes. And this question, Mr. President, goes to
5 whether he indeed is sure that he would have because of its importance.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's then the last question on the issue you may
7 put to the witness.
8 MR. IERACE: As you please, Mr. President.
9 Q. I suppose at the time you appreciated the importance of your
10 observation because, in your mind, it established that the mortars had
11 been fired from the Presidency side of the confrontation lines; is that
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. We were -- excuse me, we were running a sweepstake on this
16 particular event.
17 Q. Mr. Gray you told us about the sweepstake. Now, you also, this
18 morning, were asked some questions about the humanitarian aid convoy
19 operated by French troops that were shot at when it arrived at Sarajevo
20 and you said this morning, "The convoy had been sitting at Lukavica
21 barracks overnight and was due to come in at 10.00 a.m.," is that
23 A. True.
24 Q. Do you remember -- excuse me, Mr. President, that Kate Adie on the
25 voiceover for this incident referred to the French convoy being shot at as
1 it approached at dusk the day before?
2 A. No, I don't recall that.
3 Q. I think her words were, "These men were part of a routine UN
4 convoy from Belgrade, 35 vehicles nearing Sarajevo airport at dusk
6 Mr. Gray, I think you've told us you weren't there, you didn't see
7 the convoy approach. Do you dispute that it, in fact, arrived at dusk and
8 not at 10.00 a.m. in the morning?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think the witness has
12 repeated, on several occasions, his answer to this question. He's
13 provided a clear answer to this question.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't know where Mr. Piletta-Zanin
15 gets that from, since the time issue only arose this morning.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm referring to "broad
17 daylight," Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. Do you dispute that the convoy was shot at as it arrived at dusk?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. You say that it arrived at 10.00 a.m.; is that correct?
23 A. I'm saying that it arrived in broad daylight and it was not at
24 dusk. You can have it. I mean look at the video.
25 Q. Mr. Gray, do you know -- I withdraw that. What was your
1 information as to when, that is, what time of day, the convoy was shot at?
2 A. I don't recall.
3 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Judge Nieto-Navia has one or
5 more questions for you.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like the
8 clip on the brown Mercedes be shown to the witness, but only one of the
9 images, not the complete clip. I think that the technical booth knows
10 that. Okay. That's the picture.
11 Mr. Gray, you told us that to the right-hand side was the building
12 of the Presidency.
13 A. True.
14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Well, do you know which building is the one
15 that you can see behind the trees at the right-hand side? It's -- not
16 yellow but ...
17 A. There are two buildings there is the Presidency building
18 and -- which is -- it's actually shielded by the vehicles you can see on
19 the right-hand side of the screen and then there is another building where
20 I had my -- the Papa headquarters was actually based. I know because I
21 was in that building and I actually helped to put the antenna up on the
22 actual roof of that building. But the Presidency building is the one to
23 the right-hand side and it's shielded basically by the vehicles which are
24 moving away from where the mortar attack happened.
25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: In fact, we can't see the Presidency building.
1 A. No, you can't. You can't see it. You can't actually see it.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. Gray. You are an experienced
3 artillery officer, aren't you?
4 A. No, I have experience with mortars, I have worked with artillery
5 many times but I mean I am -- well, I was an infantry officer but I have
6 done courses with both artillery and with mortars.
7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Well, if, in theory, I'm talking in theory, if
8 you are in front of a building used by snipers, how can you get rid of the
9 snipers? Which weapon would you use in that case?
10 A. I would use any weapon that was at my disposal in order to
11 actually get rid of them, whether it be by tank fire, whether it would be
12 by small arms fire. I wouldn't try to use mortars because it doesn't
13 really work that well because mortars come directly down. I would use
14 artillery but probably not mortars, but I mean I would use anything at my
15 disposal to actually get rid of the sniper.
16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You mentioned the other day that there were
17 two agreements, big ones, agreements, and you said the following, "The
18 second agreement was not honoured by the UN."
19 A. True.
20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you elaborate a little bit on that?
21 A. Yes. When General MacKenzie withdrew from -- by I mean he
22 withdrew himself from Sarajevo, there was a vacuum created and we had a
23 French chief of staff, Colonel d'Avout, a very nice man but he was a chief
24 of staff not a commander so we had this vacuum and so nothing was
25 happening, the war was going on but we had the airport agreement and then
1 we had the agreement for the concentration of weapons and I decided that
2 something had to be done so I went out and I concluded in August and
3 September a second agreement for the concentration of all heavy weapons
4 and that was concluded in August and September.
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. Gray. No further questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to thank
9 you for the effort you have made and for the information that you have
10 provided us with. There are a few questions that I would like to ask you
11 and in fact it's a matter of verifying certain matters. If I have
12 understood you correctly, my first question has to do with the shelling of
13 the building where you and some UN members were present, where you were
14 shelled at. If I have understood you correctly, you said that you had
15 asked for an explanation from the commander or deputy commander on the
16 Serb side who was located in Nedzarici. You asked him why he had shelled
17 the building and he replied that that building was close to the
18 confrontation line. Have I understood you correctly?
19 A. The building was on the confrontation line, it was actually part
20 of the front line.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right,
22 exactly. So in responses to the questions put to you, you said that there
23 were forces that gathered from this building in order to prepare possible
24 attacks but if I've understood you correctly, if I have understood the
25 answer of the commander of the Serbian forces who told you that this
1 building was part of the confrontation line, he wasn't speaking about the
2 preparation of troops or he wasn't speaking on the basis of knowledge of
3 troops getting ready because you lived in that building and you yourself
4 were able to see these troops gathering.
5 Did the Serb commander know about what was being prepared in this
7 A. Yes, he did. As I explained, I think, on Friday, the -- this --
8 these buildings, I mean, were like this and they formed -- it was a --
9 what in military terms we call a forming-up place, I mean this is where
10 the troops actually formed behind the buildings and they actually attacked
11 Nedzarici from behind these buildings.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but my problem is that the
13 commander told you, the question itself revealed that you were wondering
14 what the reason was and that's why he responded, why he told you, well,
15 the building is on the confrontation line. The problem is that if you
16 were aware of the fact that there were forces who were gathering or
17 getting prepared in this building, it would have been normal for this
18 building to be shelled so your question shows that you wanted to find out
19 about this. I don't know if I'm clear. Is my question clear or would you
20 like me to be more specific, elaborate on it?
21 A. I have described this building a number of times and the building
22 was being used by snipers which were firing at Nedzarici, that is why the
23 fire came back at the buildings and that is why the civilians moved from
24 the front apartments to the rear apartments. Mine was a rear apartment.
25 But I mean there were armoured personnel carriers, there were lots, lots
1 of -- I mean a great number of soldiers and they were fighters for the
2 Presidency side who were -- who formed up behind these buildings and then
3 attacked Nedzarici.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but my problem
5 is that I still have the same problem. The question is: Since you were
6 aware of all these details, why did you, yourself, as a military man, why
7 did you ask the Serbian commander the reason for which he had shelled this
8 building, given that on the basis of your testimony, it's obvious that it
9 was a military target and it was quite normal for this building to be
11 What I myself don't understand, since I'm not a military person, I
12 don't understand -- the question that you put to the commander, you wanted
13 to know the reason for which the building had been shelled but you are
14 quite aware of the fact that it was a military target. So I want to know
15 why you put this question to the Serbian commander.
16 A. Okay. I understand your question. The reason that I put the
17 question to the deputy commander for Nedzarici was that we had UN flags
18 hanging outside the buildings in clear view of the forces in Nedzarici so
19 they knew that UN personnel were actually living in those buildings. That
20 was the reason why I asked them.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but my question stands
22 because you were aware of the fact that it was a military target and that
23 it was legitimate to shell it and this is why your question seemed to me
24 to be something that I couldn't understand but I'll move on to another
1 You said that in relation to the bombing or the bomb that was
2 planted at the market, you said that you sent two of your officers there,
3 a Canadian and an Australian in order to carry out an investigation. My
4 question is: Was it customary, was it a rule, was it the rule that after
5 each bombing, a UN commission would be formed and an investigation would
6 be carried out, there would be a report for each incident or was this not
7 customary and did you decide to launch an investigation into this
8 particular incident?
9 A. It was customary that for -- because this had I mean so much media
10 attention. I mean routine shelling did not attract this sort of attention
11 by the UN. I mean it -- shelling was shelling and so -- but this one was
12 specific and it was important that because of the attention that had been
13 given to it by the media, that we actually had a very, very close look at
15 Some of the shelling that happened was outside the view of -- I
16 mean we could see it, but I mean it was outside the immediate area that we
17 could actually attend and provide attention to or investigate, but this
18 one was very close to the PTT. It received a lot of media attention and
19 so it was thoroughly investigated and reports were given to Zagreb and the
20 UN headquarters in New York.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if I understand you correctly,
22 a certain period of time elapsed between the incident and the response of
23 the media -- yes, you were about to say?
24 A. I'm saying that the media were there almost -- I mean they were
25 there immediately. I mean they were there -- I mean they took photos. I
1 mean it -- I'm sure it's on one of the videotapes. They were there almost
2 as it happened and they were lucky that they were not actually injured or
3 killed in the actual incident. They were there immediately and my
4 officers who went there to investigate it, they were there within an hour,
5 hour and a half, maximum.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right, to avoid any
7 misunderstanding, you are saying that your reaction was due or was egged
8 on by the media because the media were reporting the incident and that you
9 then reacted -- and you reacted then. So I presume that normally there
10 should be an interval but that you actually were abreast of what the media
11 were saying and therefore, your decision came to send officers to
12 investigate the accident. I was asking you and you said that no, it was
13 immediately. From what you remember, how long -- how much time elapsed
14 between the incident and your intervention?
15 A. It was probably an hour, an hour and a half between -- the media
16 had satellite dishes, I mean they were -- they would take something from
17 an incident and they would take it immediate -- the television building is
18 immediately adjacent to the PTT and those pictures -- plus they also had a
19 satellite dish set up at the PTT as well. So I mean those images were
20 beamed out almost immediately that something had happened, and I mean we
21 could -- we could watch it on the TV that I had in the PTT and it was
22 important not only because of that but -- I mean I was directed to get an
23 investigation team there as soon as possible and so that's when I sent the
24 Australian artillery officer and the Canadian mortar officer, I sent them
25 there immediately to do an investigation as people were still mopping up
1 the blood and clearing away people.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right, but were they the same
3 officers whom you sent whenever something happened? What I mean is did
4 they conduct other investigations prior to that particular incident or was
5 it, from what you can remember, the first time they did that?
6 A. No, I think it was the -- probably the first time they did it and
7 then the 13th of July incident happened after that.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. Now, I'd like to move on
9 to another subject and that has to do with the incident which took place
10 on the day when Sir Douglas Hurd arrived in Sarajevo. I'd like to
11 understand you correctly. You said that you were in front of the door at
12 the Presidency and that you heard shots, that is the impact, the
13 primaries, I believe is the term, the English term is primaries, so you
14 heard them and you were able to identify the firing point at a distance of
15 200 metres.
16 A. It was less than that.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] How much?
18 A. I would say that it may have been 50, 75 metres away, maximum. I
19 could hear them -- they were -- they were -- I mean the mortars were down
20 a side street just by the Presidency, okay, and they fired directly over a
21 building and they -- you have to hear a primary to actually know what it
22 sounds like but I mean it is very distinctive.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. So they were behind a
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you thought that in order to
2 hear that sound, how many seconds does it take to get the sound, that is,
3 what I mean is after how many seconds did you hear the impact?
4 A. When you're firing a mortar bomb just on the primary cartridge
5 which is actually inside the base of the actual mortar bomb, and you're
6 only firing it on primary and it goes maximum 200 metres, the time of
7 flight is probably about 10 seconds.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. And you therefore heard
9 it one, two seconds after the shell exploded?
10 A. No, I heard the primary -- I mean the people who were standing
11 with me right at the front entrance, they moved inside because they knew
12 that something was going to happen. The police, they weren't soldiers,
13 they were police, who were forming the so-called honour guard --
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, witness, to interrupt
15 you, but I merely wanted or rather I wanted you to establish material
16 facts of this because you made a value judgement. You said people knew
17 and that is why they retreated but if we only keep to what happened, just
18 that, nothing else, you said that you heard -- that you had heard what one
19 calls a primary and then after -- and after that, how long -- how much
20 time did elapse before you saw the explosion?
21 A. It was about five or ten seconds. It was a very short distance
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So in point of fact, you could
24 not -- you could hear only one primary because the second one was launched
25 immediately after it?
1 A. No, there were two primaries. I mean there were two bombs that
2 landed. One landed -- one landed and then approximately 30 seconds later,
3 another bomb landed. The people who were trying to actually help the
4 person who was in the Mercedes, they were caught by the second bomb and
5 then about 30 seconds later, from nowhere, an ambulance arrived and picked
6 up all of the bodies and took them away to Kosovo hospital.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And during that time, you stayed
8 in the front entrance of the Presidency?
9 A. Yes, I did, yes.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My last question is you answered
11 it already, but I'd like to make sure, I'd like to make sure. You,
12 personally, were you targeted personally or were you targeted as a
13 representative of the United Nations? That is, was it your person or were
14 you the -- a member, a representative of the United Nations, what is your
15 feeling about it? What do you think?
16 A. The answer to your question is that I was targeted personally, I
17 have given death threats --
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but were you, as yourself or
19 because you were representing an international organisation? Was it your
20 personality or was it because you were a representative of the United
21 Nations or was it you yourself?
22 A. It was both because, I mean, I deliberately arranged for a
23 cease-fire with the warring sides and they knew precisely at what time I
24 was travelling across the airport to go to Lukavica to actually have a
25 meeting. They knew that precisely. They knew I would be in the armoured
1 personnel carrier and they deliberately fired at me. That was a personal
3 On other occasions, I was targeted because I was part of the UN
4 body in UNPROFOR in Sarajevo.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you cannot really distinguish,
6 was it your person that was targeted or was it as a representative of the
7 UN that you are targeted, is that your answer that you cannot really say
8 whether there was any difference between the two?
9 A. I mean there was a lot of difference when you're getting fired at.
10 I mean the thing is that on certain occasions, the warring parties were
11 totally clear on where I was and what I was doing and they deliberately
12 fired at me. That is deliberate.
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but you explained that
14 after you arrived, you were able to acquire a picture of what was going on
15 on the ground and that one party to the conflict was defending its rights,
16 you said that the Serbs were defending their land and that the other party
17 was attempting ethnic cleansing. Now, this value judgement, if I may put
18 it that way, was it being done -- can that explain, that is the knowledge
19 of the two parties, could that explain then the given attitude?
20 A. It may well do. But I mean again, that is, I mean, a value
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, I've got a few questions for you as well.
24 A. Certainly.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You remember that we saw a video clip of nightly
1 attack on the building that was shown to you previously on the photograph,
2 that was the parliamentary building, yes?
3 A. That was the building next to the Holiday Inn.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The nightly attack we saw, do you know what day
5 that was or is it just on the basis of the video that you testified?
6 A. I don't recall the actual day it happened.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you don't know what attack exactly is shown
8 on the video.
9 A. No, I don't. I don't know exactly.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could that video clip be shown again, Mr. Ierace, I
11 know that you prepared for the technical booth where to find it.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I hand up the transcript.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes and that would then be the full.
14 MR. IERACE: That transcript covers the clip from its beginning
15 until when it -- when that subject matter is completed, and we see on the
16 screen the following image which is a basement somewhere.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to make sure, shall we
21 now see the tape which we gave to the registrar and the -- and with the
22 attack at the end of the tape or is it something else?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you -- of course I do not know.
24 I've seen a short video clip.
25 MR. IERACE: If I could assist, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. IERACE: There are presently tendered into evidence two
3 versions, the first version is that tendered by the Defence. The second
4 version is that tendered by the Prosecution. Neither of those versions
5 are very clear, certainly nowhere near as clear as that on the tape
6 provided by Mr. Gray. The one in the booth at the moment is the tape
7 proceeded by Mr. Gray. We will obtain a better quality copy of that
8 hopefully in the next few days.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we are now playing the --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, is it the
11 Prosecution's -- will this be now the Prosecution's version that we shall
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think we play the full part of which a part has
14 been shown by the Defence and the tape played is the original tape
15 provided by Mr. Gray to the Defence that was then handed to the registry
16 and not a bad copy meanwhile prepared.
17 MR. IERACE: I've just been told by my case manager that in fact
18 the visual audio booth does not have the original Gray tape. I thought it
19 did. Perhaps we could just check with Madam Registrar.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is why I'm asking because
21 I think we have the originals and I simply wanted to know what we were
22 about to see now.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... If you have the
24 original could you --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, it's not with us. We
1 don't have it with us but our tape point 6 or 9, the very last one, is
2 that fragment.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Whereas
4 Mr. Ierace wanted to play the complete --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Does Mr. Ierace have this, I
6 can't remember, did Mr. Ierace show this part of the tape during his
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... We would like to
9 see the tape as well that he then refrained from it expecting that the
10 Chamber would ask it to be played.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: If the original is in the hands of the Defence could
13 we then please play the not perfect copy prepared by the Prosecution?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have two
15 original -- no, three, but we no longer know where this particular
16 fragment is on original tapes because there's a lot of material on them
17 and we don't know because we did a patchwork.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I have never
19 seen and neither has any other Judge in this Chamber has seen the full
20 four videos so it's -- I think the parties should be able to identify the
21 full part of the short clip played by the Defence. I couldn't help you to
22 say it's on video tape 1, 2, 3 or 4. Perhaps you would know from which
23 video you took your sequence that you showed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems that
25 from two tapes which are the BBC tapes but both are two-hours long and I'm
1 reminding you that we did very quickly --
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Identified at
3 this moment.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not at all.
5 MR. IERACE: If you wish to see the original, I think in the space
6 of two or three minutes I could locate that in the video booth. If you
7 wish to see the Prosecution clip, that is the one that was tendered by the
8 Prosecution, I imagine that would probably still take us two or three
9 minutes to find it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: So if I could have the two original BBC tapes if you
12 wish it, Mr. President, I could move into the video booth and find it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have to -- perhaps we should have an early
14 break, you identify them during the break and then we then start again at
15 a quarter to 1.00. We'll adjourn until a quarter to 1.00.
16 --- Break taken at 12:25 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12:51 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, unfortunately, we cannot show the
20 original videotape of that segment. It transpires that it is of a
21 different system than the visual and audio booth can utilise, it's an NTSC
22 system whereas the booth is set up for a PAL system it seems therefore
23 that the only other complete segment that we have is the Prosecution
24 exhibit in due course when later to the Defence provides us with the
25 original BBC Gray tape and we retrieve from Madam Registrar the other BBC
1 original Gray tape we will make copies.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think I could for the time being do
3 without but I know that you wanted the video to be played as I said the
4 Chamber would do, but if there's no clear copy I can put my questions to
5 the witness also without that tape.
6 Madam usher, would you please escort Mr. Gray into the courtroom.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the originals
8 are now with the Prosecution. We'd appreciate it if they could return
9 them to us because they belong to us and I haven't finished yet, there
10 might be things on the tape that we are interested in, we'd like to do
11 everything possible to copy them for ourselves and if the Prosecution
12 wants to stop me from doing so, I don't think this is right.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think we need a clear direction on
14 this. The Prosecution has neither original at the moment. One, I
15 returned to the Defence at the Defence demand, I only had it for about ten
16 minutes over the break. The other is with Madam Registrar. The
17 Prosecution seeks an opportunity to copy both of the BBC tapes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a system available which would allow to copy
19 the -- what did you say the NTSC system to PAL?
20 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, a home video can show the NTSC
21 video but not the booth and to qualify what I said earlier we seek access
22 to the four original videotapes so we can make a copy of it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So all the videotapes should be put at the disposal
24 of the registry and so that copies can be made and if there's any need to
25 consult them we'll try and find a way that the parties can consult them.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We don't intend to have these
4 cassettes tendered as such, as evidence for reasons which are --
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... At the disposal
6 of the registry in order to be copied first it does not mean it is
7 tendered in its entirety in the proceedings. That's a different matter.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, our following
9 witness will be a ballistics expert who is going to talk about the five
10 shelling incidents. Given what is on these tapes, I need them as soon as
11 possible in order to work.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Need them to
13 be -- if that's true for the Defence that's true for the Prosecution,
14 that's why they should be copied as soon as possible and I do understand
15 that both parties have not their own facilities. They have not their own
16 facilities at this moment to copy them so under full control of the
17 registry, copies will be made and be put at the disposal of the parties as
18 soon as possible.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: The parties may -- the copying this way is
21 time-consuming so therefore I invite the parties to let the Chamber -- let
22 the registry know what video they would like to be copied first because
23 the copying takes as much time as the video plays itself and we'll do
24 whatever we can in order to have them copied as soon as possible.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that
1 the Prosecution's position is well-known. They want the first BBC tapes
2 to be copied, I think that's what they're most interested in and I think
3 that what remains is additional. What we are also interested in what
4 interests us the most are also these two cassettes where we have the BBC
5 sequences. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So we start with one of the BBC cassettes copying and
7 then the second one.
8 So are the originals now in the hands of Madam Registrar? Could
9 they please be provided.
10 THE REGISTRAR: I have only one original tape.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And the other four are there and I take it that it's
12 visible that what are the BBC. Madam usher.
13 MR. IERACE: Other three, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The other three, Mr. President, yes, my calculating
15 becomes bad.
16 Mr. Gray, we would have liked to show you the tapes again but you
17 told us -- there are technical reasons why it could not immediately do
18 that. You told us about the attack on the parliamentary building.
19 A. True.
20 JUDGE ORIE: How did you deduce from that video image that the
21 fire came from the east as you told us?
22 A. It's the actual positioning of the buildings. The -- there was a
23 photo shown to me and to the Court which was clearly taken from the Serb
24 side of the confrontation line. The firing that appears in the videotape,
25 you can see on the building -- on the narrow part of the building where
1 Serb tank rounds have hit the facade of the building. Machine-gun fire
2 which all the tracer fire is coming from the eastern side and --
3 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by the eastern side? From the
4 right-hand side of the photograph?
5 A. Yes, on the right-hand side.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Are you now talking about the photograph or on the
8 A. On the videotape. The firing comes from the, as you look at it,
9 the right-hand side.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is my recollection correct that it comes
11 approximately in a horizontal line from the right-hand side.
12 A. Slightly upwards in the firing is slightly on an angle like this
13 it's not like this and it's not like that. It is slightly upwards. And
14 given the calibre of the actual machine-gun being used with the tracer
15 bullets and the actual distance that the machine-gun can physically fire
16 with any degree of accuracy, and this was definitely aimed fire. The
17 maximum range would be --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I'm just talking about direction rather
19 than the range at this time.
20 A. It came from the eastern side and the range is important because
21 the nearest Serb position was another --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, you are talking about the position. I'm
23 just talking about the direction at this very moment. You say it came
24 from the east.
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And you concluded that on the basis of what you saw
2 on the video screen, that is, the line going slightly upwards to the left
3 and coming from the right.
4 A. Correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, is it your position that on a
6 two-dimensional screen, you could identify the direction from which a
7 projectile comes?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask the parties whether they would like
10 this to be further explored? Everyone who takes a ...
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, willingly,
12 Mr. President, because if, for example, we have objects on a screen,
13 objects that we know and that --
14 MR. IERACE: I object to this --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We are able to know whether
16 the shot is going behind --
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Question whether
18 on the basis of -- I was just trying to find out whether on the basis of
19 the line as described by the witness, the parties would consider, apart
20 from any additional information, whether the parties would consider that
21 you could establish the direction where the fire comes from on the basis
22 of the direction and the line as indicated the witness.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would say that in any event,
24 where there are 180 degrees it's quite clear.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So as a matter of fact you take it that it could be
1 the other 180 degrees are still a possibility. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Does the Prosecution also agrees on that?
3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we don't have to further explore the matter
5 with the witness.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wanted
7 to say was that the other 180 degrees was a possibility. I think we have
8 understood each other. I wanted to say nothing else.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Within the realm of possibility, yes.
10 Mr. Gray, you once told us that you had visited the school of
11 theology, is that a correct understanding of your testimony.
12 A. Yes, that's true. I didn't understand it as being that but that
13 was in Nedzarici and that was on an evening after I had had meetings with
14 the commander and the deputy commander for Nedzarici for the Serb forces
15 in Nedzarici.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you describe the building.
17 A. It was a two-storey building. It was basically being used as a
18 medical facility when I visited it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did it -- was it one rectangular building or
20 was it a building with several wings or --
21 A. It was at night and I -- from what I recall, it was a building
22 with several wings on it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How many rooms did you see in that building?
24 A. I only saw one particular room.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And that was a room close to the entry or --
1 A. It was on the second storey that I actually went to and it was
2 being used as a sleeping area. I mean, a dormitory.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, was is it a large building.
4 A. Yeah, it was quite large, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So you saw a small part of it.
6 A. I only saw a very small part of it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Now you've told us about the experts that
8 had done the expertise on the marketplace where the bomb exploded. Had
9 you seen the crater itself?
10 A. No, I did not I trusted implicitly in the knowledge and the
11 expertise of the officers who conducted the investigation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Being questioned by the -- being examined by
13 the Prosecution, you said that it was impossible that that crater could
14 have been caused by a mortar that would have exploded on the ground but an
15 impact that would have happened on a person, how could you be so sure
16 about that.
17 A. Well, there would be no crater for start off if a mortar had
18 impacted directly on a person and then exploded, there would be no crater
20 JUDGE ORIE: If it would explode on the lower extremities of a
22 A. It still won't leave any crater. I mean the crater that we're
23 talking about in the marketplace was quite severe. It was a large crater.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Have pictures been made of it?
25 A. Yeah. I mean there are pictures available, I'm sure, with the BBC
1 or --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but have you seen pictures when you were
3 reported by your experts?
4 A. There are pictures on the videotapes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No I'm asking whether you saw pictures when the
6 reports came in from your experts.
7 A. No, I did not see them myself.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You more or less criticised and this as
9 such is nothing wrong with criticising UN for sending Egypt Bat because
10 you said they could be religiously close to one of the warring factions.
11 Do you consider religion to be one of the forces behind the conflict or.
12 A. Yes, I do, definitely. It was. I mean you had Ukranian Battalion
13 which was Orthodox Christian, you had an Egyptian Battalion who were
14 Muslim, I mean who were the UN actually thinking about when they actually
15 sent these battalions there? I mean the French battalion, the Canadian
16 battalion were the ideal battalions to send there. A British battalion,
17 a -- battalions that were ethnically and religiously fixed were -- they --
18 I mean the Egyptians took -- they had their compound 400 metres from the
19 PTT and it took a pounding from the Serbs. There's no two ways about
20 that. Ukranian Battalion, on the other hand, were at Marsal Tito barracks
21 and they took a pounding as well. That was for a reason.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that your testimony is that because
23 of their Egyptian origin that the Serbs would go harder after Egypt Bat.
24 A. True.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And talking about origin, you're talking about
2 A. I'm talking about religion, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have similar experience, for example, with
4 going after the Croats, of which I understand that the percentages of
5 Catholics is relatively high, with going after the French for example who
6 is supposed to be a people who is where the percentages of Catholics is
7 relatively higher than for example in northern Europe.
8 A. No, I mean the French Battalion were absolutely marvelous and they
9 did not suffer the same amount of attrition or attacks as the Ukranians or
10 the Egyptians.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that your testimony is that the
12 two parties involved, the Presidency sometimes referred to as Muslims and
13 Serbs, would be driven by religious reasons to go after specifically those
14 part of the UN forces that were of opposite religion.
15 A. Correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.
17 Then you have given a lot of answers in respect of the apartment
18 building in which you lived and you said that the UN flag was flying from
19 that building.
20 A. I still have that flag.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How did the UN react when it became aware, and
22 you told us that you were aware of it, that the building was used by
23 snipers and the building was used to shield those who were at the back
24 side of the building to get together, to group themselves.
25 A. We objected to the fact, but on the 14th of May, was really the
1 first day of the war in Sarajevo and Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was the very
2 first day. On the 15th of May, we basically -- we kept inside the
3 building. It was unsafe to actually move outside the building and move
4 anywhere. We were only located, I think, 400 metres from the PTT
6 On the 16th of May, we were told to evacuate our apartment
7 building and move to the PTT. On the 16th and 17th of May, the UNPROFOR
8 headquarters was withdrawn from Sarajevo and they left ten military
9 observers, 30 French soldiers and a couple of Swedish cooks and a very
10 good Dutch communications contingent who actually kept us in contact with
11 the rest of the world. But I mean we protested to both of the warring
12 sides, I mean, and this was very early on that we -- I mean we didn't have
13 the infrastructure set up with the liaison officers that we subsequently
14 had, we didn't have them at that particular time. But we did protest
15 about the fact that our apartment buildings, which were clearly identified
16 with -- I mean each -- we had five apartments in the apartment buildings.
17 Every one of them had a large UN flag flying outside it, it was clearly
18 obvious. I mean there is a photo on the -- one of the tapes where it
19 shows a UN vehicle which is peppered, peppered with shrapnel which came
20 from a rifle grenade which was actually fired from within the -- within
21 the apartment complex. I mean the building is here, the Serb forces are
22 over here, the vehicle is here --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you here. I do understand your testimony
24 such that you protested at the Presidency side for using your building; is
25 that correct?
1 A. We protested that they were using the building as a forming-up
2 place to actually attack Nedzarici.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was your protest against the other party?
4 What did you protest about to the other party?
5 A. At that time, I was not dealing with the other party. It was only
6 after the 10th of June --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you told us that you protested to both
9 A. The protest came from my superior, Colonel Wilson.
10 JUDGE ORIE: What was it about?
11 A. It was about the fact that they were using the buildings which
12 were occupied with civilians as a means to attack Nedzarici.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, that was against the Presidency forces that they
14 used the building but now the other party.
15 A. Well, the other party, the protest was that they were firing at
16 buildings that were occupied with civilians and they knew that. But I
17 mean the buildings were being used as a military installation, if you
18 like. That's what the buildings were being used as.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Why then protest or ...
20 A. Sorry?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Why then protest if you say, more or less, that it
22 was a military target?
23 A. We were trying to stop the fighting.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 A. On both sides.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you consider that -- or did you observe that the
2 attacks to the apartment building did not exclude the apartments from
3 which the UN flag was flying?
4 A. The attacks on the buildings were not precise. I have a photo and
5 I'm sorry I don't have it with me, but I have a photo of one of my
6 officers, his name is Gwyn Reese [phoen], he was a navy lieutenant
7 commander, the window from which he is looking has a mortar impact next to
8 it one metre away from the actual window. He actually moved into -- and
9 this was facing, obviously, the front line towards the Serb Nedzarici, he
10 actually went and he slept in his bathtub because the impacts on the
11 building were just too close. But the number of impacts that you could
12 actually see on the actual building were maybe half a dozen, no more.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer. May I just come
14 back, very briefly, to one of your earlier answers. This video clip of
15 the nightly attack on the parliamentary building, do you have any
16 knowledge as where the camera would have been situated exactly?
17 A. The camera was probably located up -- well, I mean it would be
18 very close to the daylight picture, the still picture that you have in
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you would say from the south but do you have
21 any -- is that a reconstruction of where it should have been because I
22 can imagine on the basis of the buildings as they appear in the picture
23 that you would easily conclude that it's somewhere in the south but do you
24 have any further --
25 A. No, I don't.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then my final question is do you remember that
2 on one of these video -- on the same video clip that you see a incendiary,
3 at least something which seems to be flames on the, if I may say it so,
4 the short end of the building.
5 A. Yeah.
6 JUDGE ORIE: How do you reconcile the origin of fire from the east
7 and at the same time something hitting at least it looks as if there was a
8 hit on that wall, I'm not suggesting there was, but at least that flames
9 come out from the south, south-oriented wall of that building?
10 A. I can only conclude that a tank shell had penetrated that southern
11 side of the building and that the tracer fire, which was coming in from
12 this direction here, had set up a fire on the inside of the building and
13 that the flames were being seen through the actual -- I mean a tank round
14 makes a big hole and you can see that and I can only conclude that the
15 actual flames were coming from the inside were actually showing through
16 one of those tank round holes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand your explanation of this
19 I have no further questions for you, Mr. Gray, but perhaps the
20 parties would have a question.
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, we no
23 doubt have questions but meanwhile, perhaps the -- we want to ask whether
24 the technical booth has our tape.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... See whether you
1 could find it do you take the night attack?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if the video played during the
3 examination-in-chief and I think it was item number nine on that video,
4 could that be brought to the technical booth and could we see whether it's
5 possible to play that specific part and then that is not the full version,
6 Mr. Ierace, but the limited version played before by the Defence.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher -- could you please -- one moment,
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it it's on one of the BBC, could madam usher
12 could assist, could you please identify on which tape we could find it?
13 MR. IERACE: I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin is referring to the tape
14 that the Defence tendered which has the excerpts played in chief.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could perhaps -- could we see whether we -- the
16 technicians could find the -- if you or Ms. Pilipovic could perhaps go to
17 the booth.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is it our tape?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Then it is the very last clip.
21 THE REGISTRAR: For the record it's D348/20.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before the booth runs it I'd
25 like to ask some other questions too not to waste time.
1 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
2 Q. Colonel Gray, His Honour Judge El Mahdi asked you some questions
3 and you answered that behind those buildings, the enemy troops got
4 together, formed up before the attack in preparation of an attack and you
5 are saying behind those buildings. Now, my question is if you are a
6 military on the other side, how, with which weapon can you try to hit
7 troops, to hit those troops which are behind those buildings? This is my
8 first question.
9 A. The most effective way would be to -- by the use of mortars but
10 the buildings were only ten metres apart so the effect would be minimal.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Very well. Then concretely was there a possibility of an error in
14 view of this small distance, perhaps that could explain shots arriving
15 which one wouldn't have arriving?
16 MR. IERACE: I object. It's leading, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apart from that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it's
18 not -- your question is not quite clear to me. I think the witness said
19 that the buildings were 10 metres apart. You are talking about a small
20 distance, a small distance to what, to the next building or to whatever?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was referring to the
22 witness' reply. He spoke about a relatively short distance between
23 buildings and I suppose he was speaking either about a yard or something.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is it -- do you mean that by firing errors something
25 about hitting the next building or ...
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I am speaking about
2 firing errors because if the target is nearby then it is possible that by
3 mistake, the projectile hits another building or something which is
4 further away.
5 Q. Witness, did you understand this? Was this -- wasn't there a
6 higher risk of misshots or shots going off the target because of the short
8 A. Yes, there is.
9 Q. Thank you. Another question, Witness, attacks on your apartment
10 were mentioned. My question is how much time did you spend in this
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Last question it
13 was not something which arose from the questions of the Bench and there is
14 a question of course questions have been put but the issue has been raised
15 already far earlier. I'll allow you to put this question to the witness,
16 but would you please keep this in mind?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a question by
18 His Honour Judge El Mahdi had to do with this UN flags and the question
19 was why is it -- why did the commander, the [indiscernible] commanders --
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The Judges have
21 not put questions in relation to issues already raised by the parties.
22 It's not something that arose new but was an -- and it's not -- questions
23 put by the parties to a witness after the Bench has put questions are to
24 put questions in respect of issues not raised by the parties before. That
25 cannot be said of this subject but I'll allow you to seek the answer of
1 the witness on this respect but just for the coming 20 minutes.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Yes, and so Witness, did you spend a lot of time in this part, how
4 much time did you spend in that apartment daily?
5 A. Okay. I arrived in Sarajevo on the 10th of April, 1992. I was
6 appointed as the chief of operations for all military observers in the
7 former Yugoslavia --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, if I may interrupt you, the question was
9 how much time a day you'd spend in the apartment, approximately.
10 THE WITNESS: Maximum of eight hours, maximum.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President,
12 perhaps we can all try to see the tape.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Episode of the
14 Defence video has been located we could look at it again. If the -- yes.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can you fast forward because
17 this is not what I wanted.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps quickly move forward.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So it seems if there is
20 nothing after this.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Backwards. For
22 the information of the video booth it's a clip in which a nightly attack
23 is shown but if you have any other questions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we
24 could -- I think, yes. Yes, I think we have come to the part if it could
25 be rewound, rewind, backwards, please.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You can stop here.
3 Q. Witness, did you, like I did, see -- but I don't want --
4 MR. IERACE: I object to this.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, but I haven't yet
6 asked my question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you started your question saying
8 have you seen as I did, and that could only result in explaining to the
9 witness what you saw. But now we have a different question.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, have you well been able to observe the
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
16 Q. Witness, did you see certain bullets hit the facade of the
17 building, the long wall of the building?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you see other projectiles going off the mark?
20 A. I'm not aware that -- of seeing anything like that.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we then see once again
22 the tape?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could play it again?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If it would be rewound.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And witness, I'd appreciate it
2 if you attentively watch this tape for possible projectiles which did not
3 hit their targets.
4 [Videotape played]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Witness, did you watch closely and therefore see some projectiles
8 which, perhaps, missed their targets?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And if we then look at the location of the buildings on the one
11 hand, and on the other, on the basis of your personal knowledge of
12 Sarajevo, could you tell us, confirm or rather know what is said about the
13 origin of these projectiles?
14 A. The firing was from a -- what I would call a medium machine-gun,
15 7.92 calibre. The firing rate and the actual sound --
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. This is material that was
17 covered in chief, let alone the fact that it wasn't --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but apart that from, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked
19 both parties whether it was of any use to continue asking questions about
20 what could be seen on a two-dimensional screen and the parties agreed, I
21 refer to you mentioning 180 degrees that just from such a line you can't
22 draw any conclusions. You are now asking the witness to draw conclusions.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, I don't
24 agree. What I said was that one could exclude 180 too, but keep the 120s
25 and on the base of the field of vision one can establish.
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... To establish to
2 you could exclude that it come from the other short side of the building
3 but there's still such a range possible that where the witness testified
4 that he has his knowledge only from this video and has no specific
5 knowledge, neither where the camera was nor of the event itself, that
6 whatever conclusions you ask him to make as to the source of fire will
7 suffer from the same problem we saw before and if --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And -- precise questions then please put them but you
10 asked him whether he could say anything on the source of fire and I'm
11 quite willing during the break to explain to the parties--
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Right. Then I will ask a
14 Q. Witness, you say that you saw these projectiles which missed the
15 targets in relation to the short wall, the short facade that is, the
16 north/south one where we could see those tank marks. How would you follow
17 the trajectories of these projectiles, would you say that they were flying
18 in parallel with this south wall or were they falling perpendicularly to
19 the south wall, for instance, along the axis of the tank marks, what can
20 you tell us about that?
21 A. Very few small rounds that went past the building went past the
22 south wall and they were slightly, as I said before, they were slightly
23 rising in angle as opposed to going down in angle which is within what I
24 would expect for a weapon of this type.
25 Q. And with regard to the flames on the south wall which we saw on
1 the tape, does that confirm what you said or does this contradict what you
2 have just said?
3 A. No, the flames were clearly coming through a hole in the wall on
4 the short axis, the southern axis of the building and they were -- flames
5 from clearly coming from the inside out.
6 Q. Thank you. And my very last question: Following the question by
7 Judge El Mahdi you said something that was new, you said that the two
8 officers whom you sent to that market was actually then engaging in their
9 first investigation; however, on another page in the transcript, you said
10 the following and I will quote you in English: I sent two very
11 experienced officers. [Interpretation] So my question is as follows:
12 Where did these officers gain this experience because obviously that was
13 their first job of this kind in Sarajevo?
14 A. They were very experienced officers in their own field. One was a
15 very experienced Australian major in artillery. He had been a battery
16 commander until he came to Sarajevo, and prior to him coming to Sarajevo,
17 he had been with United Nations truce supervisory organisation in
18 Palestine. The Canadian captain was very experienced in mortar
19 operations. He was a mortar platoon commander and he was very experienced
20 in what he did.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you, Colonel.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace. Any further questions.
23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.
24 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ierace:
25 Q. You told us that in relation to the apartment building in which
1 you were living was shelled, that you protested to the Presidency forces
2 and you said in response to a question regarding protests to the Serb
3 side, "At that time I was not dealing with the other party." Do you
4 remember that you told us that on the 18th of May, 1992, you spoke to the
5 deputy commander of the Serbs in Nedzarici together with one of his
6 lieutenants and the deputy commander spoke excellent English and you
7 discussed with him the shelling of the apartment building? Firstly, do
8 you remember that you said that?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Secondly, did you protest to him at all about the shelling of the
11 apartment block?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. I had neighbours there at that stage and I was extremely upset
15 that the apartment buildings had been attacked.
16 Q. All right. Now, you said in relation to the shelling of the
17 market, "There are --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. You said in relation to the explosion of the market?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the if you could just shortly,
22 briefly indicate what your objection is based upon.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was very
24 clear repeatedly Mr. Ierace repeats this word of shelling and I said no
25 because the witness was speaking about bombing.
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Page 86, line 10
2 and perhaps it might have been --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but my
4 objection was this and I don't mind when I am repeating things but not
5 everything because that is wearisome.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The testimony of
7 the witness was that there was an explosion rather than a shell that
9 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President.
10 Q. You told us that in relation to the explosion at the market, in
11 particular, in relation to the crater, "There are pictures on the
12 videotape." Now, when did you last see on those videotapes that you've
13 given us a image of that crater, when did you last see that?
14 A. I haven't seen it for days because I mean I haven't had the -- I
15 mean the tapes have been in the possession of the Defence counsel ever
16 since I have arrived here.
17 Q. Does that mean that you saw it on the videotapes since you have
18 been here in The Hague?
19 A. No, I haven't.
20 Q. When was the last time that you saw it on the videotape?
21 A. Years ago now, years ago.
22 Q. Are you --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please break between question and
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. Are you confident that there is somewhere on those four videotapes
2 some footage which shows that crater?
3 A. I am pretty confident, yes.
4 Q. All right. Now, in relation to the four videotapes, one shows
5 three television programmes from New Zealand dealing with the training and
6 experience of New Zealand peace-keeping forces in Croatia in 1994; is that
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection. This is this has
9 absolutely nothing to do with the questions asked by the Chamber.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in response to one of your questions,
11 the witness has said for the first time that somewhere on the videotape
12 there is an image showing the crater and I wish to clarify where on those
13 videotapes the crater is and if possible, over night, have the witness
14 review the videotapes and locate that image. And I think we can eliminate
15 some of the videotapes by this questioning as being ones on which that
16 image might be.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So your question is to identify the possible
18 videotape on which this picture might appear. Yes.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to, in my view,
20 this question lacks completely foundation and the market scene was -- this
21 matter was raised by the Prosecution.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Further identify
23 that part of the video on which the crater appears. That is the purpose
24 of this question and the appearance of the crater in a video is, I think,
25 something that appeared -- that came up during questioning by the Bench.
1 So the objection is denied please proceed but in this line, Mr. Ierace,
2 not of anything else.
3 MR. IERACE: No, all right.
4 Q. So one of the tapes has some television programmes produced in
5 New Zealand in 1994; is that correct?
6 A. I'm not sure.
7 Q. All right. Do you remember having a tape with that on it, a
8 documentary on New Zealand television about peace-keeping forces from
9 New Zealand in Croatia in 1994?
10 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
11 MR. IERACE: All right. Mr. President, I withdraw that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could we please try to finish because
13 there is a videolink necessary this afternoon.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Would you be prepared to go through the videotapes overnight and
16 locate firstly the image of the crater?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. One
18 doesn't really know where the tapes are and they are in the hands of the
19 registry they need to be copied, an impossible question is asked and
20 besides it is absolutely beyond the scope of the subject.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The Prosecution
22 wants to identify the tape on which a crater appears on which the witness
23 testified it was on the video and where I do understand that the
24 Prosecution has difficulties in locating it.
25 The only question was first of all about the willingness of the
1 witness and whether it would be practically possible is another issue.
2 Would you be willing to review videos overnight?
3 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I believe I've given sufficient
4 evidence of this whole incident. I mean we have been over this incident
5 many, many times.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question was I do understand if you say
7 I'm too tired to do it then --
8 THE WITNESS: No, I can look through the tapes. I just need a
9 facility to actually view the tapes, that's all.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You stated that you are willing, if really necessary,
11 that's how I understand your answer.
12 THE WITNESS: That's the one.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace but please keep in
14 mind we really have to stop.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the only remaining aspect is in
16 relation to the video we saw on the Defence tape of the Ukrainian I think,
17 it was a radar facility and the second segment on the Defence tape, a
18 conversation with some soldiers in the forest. Whilst the witness
19 checks -- please if I could finish my --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let Mr. Ierace first speak what he wants to ask or to
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if while the
23 witness reviews the tapes, in order to locate the crater, he could also
24 inform us tomorrow if he has located the tape with those two segments on
25 it. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it would be any tomorrow,
2 Mr. Ierace, that's because all questions have been put to the witness
3 and -- let me just confer.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I think
7 that too much is being asked of this witness but it's not up to me to say
8 that and also from the Defence, I remind you that these tapes we
9 need -- those of the market because we shall need them in the examination
10 of our next witness and what we are saying now that if tapes are now
11 blocked somewhere, then we cannot use them so that I will need a day off
12 tomorrow in order to be able to prepare my examination. It's up to you,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm not asking
15 you to come back but just to know when you are about to leave?
16 THE WITNESS: I am here for at least another day, sir, and I am
17 available if you would like to see me, I'm available.
18 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, it's up to the parties to try and find
19 a way through the videos, that's point one. If the witness can assist and
20 I do understand that if necessary, he's willing to assist, then
21 nevertheless first priority should be given to copying of the videotapes
22 which will take presumably until tomorrow.
23 I take it that once a copy has been made that an extra copy so
24 that both parties have one is easily produced. Well, all the practical
25 aspects of copying the videotapes is a different matter but that gets full
1 priority and if there will be remaining time through the intervention of
2 the registry and the Victims and Witness Unit, we might ask, if possible,
3 and then it will be written down by the party who wants to have located a
4 certain part of a video and we'll then invite the witness to just write
5 down on a piece of paper where he located the part asked for so that he
6 doesn't have to reappear in court. I think it's just a practical matter
7 on to help the parties find a way through these videos that have been
8 delivered rather late.
9 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I'll do it later.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, you have been in this courtroom and in the
12 other courtroom for quite some time. We are fully aware of that. The
13 Chamber is also aware that your health circumstances were not ideal to
14 travel to The Hague and nevertheless you took the effort to come and to
15 respond to the call of the Defence to appear as a witness. You have
16 answered many, many questions of both parties and of the Bench. I'd like
17 to thank you very, very much for coming, for testifying, and perhaps even
18 do some extra work tomorrow. We'll see whether this is necessary and
19 whether it can be done or not, but then finally, I hope that you have a
20 safe trip home again.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But when the witness leaves
24 then I'll like to have a word.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to keep it briefly.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course but one thing, if we
2 need to see the tape and the witness has finished --
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... If this will be
4 done, the witness will have a little piece of paper saying could you
5 locate and then the sequences and then he can do it alone and he'll report
6 to say so to the registrar so that the registrar will then transfer to the
7 parties whatever information the witness gives.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My second question is am I
9 nevertheless authorised to see the witness because he has finished? I
10 talk not about this, but perhaps merely as a gesture, I don't know.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we have -- the only thing we ask from the
13 witness is to locate certain --
14 MR. IERACE: No objection, Mr. President.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. And my third
16 point, and I have to indicate immediately these tapes which is
17 necessary -- are necessary for the second witness so problems, delay, and
18 request for a possible postponement if necessary, thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes.
20 [Trial Chamber and the registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar again informs me that we -- the
22 Chamber should not promise anything because the technical difficulties in
23 copying are considerable. I think the Chamber did not promise anything
24 apart from that we would give full priority and that as far as the Chamber
25 is concerned we would do our utmost best to give the best possible
2 THE WITNESS: I'm at your disposal.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. We'll adjourn until 9.00
4 tomorrow morning same courtroom.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
7 at 1.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday
8 the 25th day of February, 2003, at
9 9.00 a.m.