Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20337

1 Thursday, 27 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Mr. Mundis, I'm informed that you would like to address the

10 Chamber about a motion filed yesterday by the Defence. That's correct.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President, if I could briefly address you on

12 that, I would appreciate it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you would please do this quickly.

14 MR. MUNDIS: As the Chamber is aware yesterday, the Defence

15 yesterday filed a motion seeking reconsideration of the amount time

16 allocated to the direct examination of the expert Radinovic. The

17 Prosecution notes in that filing or in support of the Defence position in

18 that filing certain matters that perhaps are beyond the scope of expertise

19 of this witness, there are matters which appear not to be covered by the

20 Rule 65 ter summary with respect to this witness, and there are also

21 references to videotapes which it's unclear if those are previously

22 admitted videotapes or new videotapes, there are certainly no videotapes

23 on the exhibit list.

24 Leaving those matters aside, Mr. President, the Prosecution has

25 consistently taken the position that this witness may require a

Page 20338

1 significant amount of time on cross-examination and as you're well aware,

2 we have in the past requested more time than the Defence has been allotted

3 for direct examination. That position remains the same and if I may

4 provide a basis for our request that we be permitted additional time

5 beyond that for the direct examination, I point out that it will be

6 necessary to cross-examine this witness on his lengthy statement, to

7 cross-examine him on any issues outside the scope of that statement to

8 which he testifies viva voce in the courtroom and it will also be

9 necessary to cross-examine this witness with respect to the apparently

10 large number of documents which the Defence intends to tender through this

11 witness.

12 So I simply raise those issues, Mr. President, so that the

13 Prosecution position with respect to time allotted for cross-examination

14 of this witness is clear. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. I

18 see that the Prosecution wants more time for its cross-examination but

19 it's not contesting the fact that we are likewise requesting more time so

20 it seems to me that for both parties, this witness is quite important. I

21 just like to note that the Prosecution doesn't contest the fact that we

22 need this number of additional hours and we think that this would be

23 useful and necessary given the issue of command responsibility. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has not had an

Page 20339

1 opportunity to yet consider the matter. We'll do that as soon as

2 possible.

3 If there is no other issue to be -- procedural issue to be

4 discussed at this very moment, madam usher, would you please escort the

5 witness into the courtroom.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning or should I say dobradan, Dr. Vilicic.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you although it might sound superfluous

10 in your ears that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've

11 given at the beginning of your testimony.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp you may continue your cross-examination.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you. Could the witness please be given the

14 document that is filed as his report in this Court. Thank you.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

18 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you not to consult any documents for the

19 time being. We are just going to deal with two documents now.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp. Although you've asked to bring the file

21 document, unfortunately it's not there at this very moment. If the

22 parties would --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

24 exactly what Mr. Stamp is referring to if he could more precise and tell

25 us what he is referring to, this would assist us, thank you.

Page 20340

1 MR. STAMP: The Defence filed pursuant to Rule 94 bis a statement

2 some time before it was an expert's report for this witness and two other

3 persons.


5 MR. STAMP: His testimony --

6 JUDGE ORIE: You are referring to the report as it has been filed

7 in this Court.

8 MR. STAMP: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could work on the basis of your copy and

10 whenever it's on the ELMO we can check because everyone has his own copy

11 available and --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before we waste

13 a lot of time, I'd simply like to know whether Mr. Stamp intends to

14 develop this problem of differences between that because if that is the

15 case then I would like to ask the expert witness to leave the courtroom

16 and I would like to address you in order to save time for all of us.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. STAMP: I do intend.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You intend to further explore the issue you started

20 yesterday?

21 MR. STAMP: As quickly as I'm allowed but I would accept my time

22 begins when the witness returns.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, madam usher, could I please ask you to escort

24 Dr. Vilicic out of the courtroom since Mr. Piletta-Zanin ...

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 20341

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Mr. President, I

3 have seen that there are differences, we have all seen that there are

4 differences between the two maps and in the English version of the

5 document, which is the one that was filed with the registry, I'd like to

6 know the reason for these differences. I haven't discovered them yet but

7 I don't think it's necessary to look for this reason for a long time.

8 As far as I can remember from Ms. Pilipovic, I think, this witness

9 addressed directly but we're not certain of this but I think this is what

10 Ms. Pilipovic says, I think that he showed certain maps to the Prosecution

11 and we weren't able to check these maps. They were given by the expert

12 directly to the Prosecution. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding when

13 the Prosecution and the witness were in contact or discussed matters

14 together and it's possible that that's where the origin of the problem is

15 but in any event, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Problem could we

17 perhaps --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly that's what I wanted

19 to say. The problem in our opinion is not important, because this

20 material is preliminary material, in a certain sense anterior to the

21 document that we elaborated. We are basing ourselves on this document if

22 these maps mistake and let's ask the question to the witness, let's ask

23 whether this has an affect on his final conclusions that's -- it's as

24 simple as that in my opinion.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

Page 20342












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Page 20343

1 MR. STAMP: Whatever judgement is made about whether the maps are

2 mistaken or otherwise, whether there are changes, the reasons for the

3 changes ought to depend on what the witness says. He's already said he

4 prepared the English copy of the report which is filed and he prepared

5 that from his B/C/S version he was the one who did it in respect of maps,

6 sketches, et cetera. But what my friend is asking is that judgements be

7 made now about things which can be easily clarified which the witness if

8 he's asked the questions and if he answers them quickly and I don't know

9 if it's a matter for submissions.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I mean what exactly -- I now do understand that in

11 the B/C/S versions there are maps where the confrontation lines which are

12 very roughly put into that map are a bit different. Is that -- or is

13 there more?

14 MR. STAMP: May I make it very plain?


16 MR. STAMP: In the B/C/S version of the map, the map for incident

17 one in Dobrinja where the Prosecution alleges that the projectile came

18 from the east, south-east it has the confrontation line in accordance in

19 the manner in which it is presented by the Prosecution in its evidence and

20 in accordance with the lines on the map, the VRS map which the Defence

21 says he uses.

22 In the map for the second Dobrinja incident where the Prosecution

23 says that the projectile came in from the west north-west, it moves the

24 line in the direction of fire according to their map two to three

25 kilometres out.

Page 20344

1 JUDGE ORIE: So you just want to clarify this -- these two maps

2 and the lines as specifically in respect of these two incidents.

3 MR. STAMP: Indeed.


5 MR. STAMP: Three incidents because there is another Dobrinja

6 incident in which the line is brought back to the position that

7 corresponds with the Prosecution, with the VRS map and then there are the

8 maps which will become clear to the Court which have been filed, in which

9 all the lines are moved away and correspond now with the lines that are

10 with respect to incident two.


12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may

13 intervene again, unless Mr. Stamp has not finished yet, I don't know, if I

14 may intervene again, Mr. President, it's for the following reason: The

15 error was caused directly when there was an exchange between this witness

16 and the Prosecution. We had no control of this and this concerned our own

17 witness. We can control the English text and that's what will be provided

18 as evidence and everything else is additional and we are not in control of

19 this. This is -- it's the Prosecution and the witness who were in contact

20 so let's not waste any time. Thank you. For the English transcript, it

21 was a sort of shadow.

22 MR. STAMP: May I just say that we did not meet at any time with

23 this witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No, it must be -- you said, -- according to the

25 translation, that it was the Prosecution and the witness who were in

Page 20345

1 contact; is that what you meant to say?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] One minute, please.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, to the extent

5 that -- yes, Mr. President. Yes, but it came through the registry so the

6 intervention that I made should be changed, thank you.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Came through the office, interpreter's

8 correction.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I've got -- the Chamber has one --

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the Chamber wonders, was it by accident

13 that the witness used this map that you noticed it or how do you know that

14 the B/C/S version -- has it been filed?

15 MR. STAMP: It has not been filed. We requested through the

16 Defence a copy of the B/C/S version to -- because at that time, we wanted

17 to analyse certain things in the language in which we thought it was

18 written originally.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And then you noticed that there were differences.

20 MR STAMP: Then in the analysis it was noticed that there were

21 differences which we think should be brought to the attention of the court

22 and the witness ought to be given an opportunity to explain.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So, it has been disclosed to you on your request.

24 MR STAMP: Yes.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Stamp, was it disclosed by the witness?

Page 20346

1 MR. STAMP: No, we had no contact with the witness. We requested

2 it through defence counsel and arrangements were made to have it provided

3 to us. Maybe I could confirm that.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right, that's right,

5 Your Honour, I apologise. The witness did it directly from the Belgrade

6 office. The witness prepared this, he came to the Belgrade office and

7 forwarded it from Belgrade. He did this by using one of the discs that he

8 showed us yesterday. So contact wasn't established between the witness

9 and the Prosecution. We weren't able to control this, it was done through

10 the office and I apologise if what I said was imprecise. Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, you can ask questions in respect of

13 the differences to the witness. Perhaps in order to save time, we noticed

14 that often it takes some time to get the witness to the point you would

15 like to ask questions about. There would be no problem in doing this in

16 such a way that it becomes sufficient rather than --

17 MR. STAMP: I intend to get directly to the point because I have a

18 huge variety of issues to go through with this witness and I would ask if

19 the witness is not cooperative in answering - I don't like to whine and

20 plead with the Court with regard to the witness - but I would need help

21 that I could move on in the cross-examination in the variety of evidence.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to save time,

23 could you perhaps ask these questions directly?

24 JUDGE ORIE: I haven't seen the other maps. I do not know exactly

25 what the differences are but if I have the feeling that intervention by

Page 20347

1 the Chamber would speed up the proceedings, I certainly will intervene.

2 Madam usher, could you please escort the witness into the

3 courtroom.

4 MR. STAMP: What I propose to do by starting is handing out to the

5 Court and the parties is copies of the B/C/S maps.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 MR. STAMP: Could these be shown to the Defence counsel and a copy

8 given to the Court.

9 Q. Witness I'm going to show you what I have which appears to be

10 photocopies of the maps in your -- in the report in your original language

11 in which I have just circled a part of the confrontation lines that you

12 drew in red.

13 MR. STAMP: Could you give the witness a copy which is circled in

14 red, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And could you put it on the ELMO.

16 MR. STAMP: Could you put the one Slika 3.1 on the ELMO.

17 Q. Witness, you have with you your original B/C/S -- when I say B/C/S

18 I mean Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian copy of your report, do you not?

19 A. You mean here, you mean my copy.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Your Honours, can I just explain something with regard to these

22 maps?

23 JUDGE ORIE: First questions will be put to you and if there is

24 any further explanation then needed, then of course you will be given an

25 opportunity to do so. I will do that if necessary but please first answer

Page 20348












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Page 20349

1 the questions.


3 Q. Is that map on the ELMO to your right a photocopy of your figure

4 3.1 in your original or in the version of your report in your own language

5 with the exception that there is a red circle around part of the line?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you point to the red circle, please?

8 A. [Indicates].

9 Q. This map in your original report was in respect to incident one,

10 the football game incident, wasn't it?

11 A. This map relates to all the incidents.

12 Q. You --

13 A. May I explain?

14 Q. No, I just want to confirm what they are and then you will get an

15 opportunity to explain. Rely on me, you will have an opportunity to

16 explain.

17 Have -- could the witness be shown the document marked Slika 3.4.

18 Do you -- well, firstly is that a copy of the map that was in your

19 original version of your report?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that map is in respect to shelling incident 2?

22 A. This is photograph 3.4, yes.

23 Q. And it was in respect of shelling incident 2?

24 A. Yes, the water line.

25 Q. In shelling incident 2, you understand that the Prosecution

Page 20350

1 alleges that the projectile arrived from the west north-west direction.

2 A. Yes, north-west.

3 Q. Do you notice that the line where it is circled in red and could

4 you point to it, please?

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Thank you. Do you notice that it has moved or it is not the same,

7 and it has moved some distance to the west, that is, to the direction of

8 fire?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, here I don't

10 understand very well. Change between what and what? Move between what

11 and what? Could we have the document again on the ELMO?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, asked you about the change in the

13 confrontation line drawn on the one map and on the other map.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Mr. President, but

15 we were speaking about 3.4 and 3.4 then --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... They are talking

17 about the two maps shown to the witness and the maps indicate in the area

18 of Dobrinja confrontation lines and that's what the question is about.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Between the two that were on

20 the ELMO earlier.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I know that these are -- you mean -- I take it that

22 we have seen Slika 3.1 and that we are now looking at Slika 3.4, yes.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. But Mr. President,

24 what I wish to say was that the 3.4 is exactly the same in English as we

25 see now, so the error is an internal one I wanted to just --

Page 20351

1 MR. STAMP: That is not a proper comment.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do not interfere in cross-examination just on the

3 basis that you do not understand what Mr. Stamp wants to ask the witness.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


6 Q. Have a look at the document marked Slika 3.8. Is that a photocopy

7 of the map that you use in your B/C/S report for your analysis of incident

8 4 with the exception of a red circle around part of the lines you have

9 drawn?

10 A. This is the sketch of a map, this is not the map that I used, but

11 is true that the incident number 4 is just marked here.

12 Q. Very well. On this sketch -- witness, let's just confirm the

13 basic facts then we'll move on. On this sketch of the map, do you agree

14 with me that the line, the position of the line where it is circled in red

15 is different from the position of the line on the map marked Slika 3.4

16 which refers to incident 2?

17 A. Yes, but it doesn't --

18 Q. It doesn't what, matter? Are you saying it doesn't matter? Is

19 that what you said? Did you say it doesn't matter?

20 A. May I just --

21 Q. You will get a chance to explain. Did you say it doesn't matter,

22 Witness, that's all I'm asking?

23 A. What I said is that this is the sketch for incident number 4.

24 Q. Very well. According to the scale on Slika number 8 and I'm not

25 suggesting your scale is in any way correct, you are saying 1 kilometre is

Page 20352

1 represented as 80 millimetres on this map. I suggest to you the

2 change - that if that scale correct - moves the line of confrontation

3 three to four kilometres in the direction of fire for incident number 2;

4 do you agree with that?

5 A. Incident number two in the direction that was pointed --

6 Q. Would you please answer the question I'm asking. All I want to

7 know is if the difference in the position of the line where it is circled

8 on Slika 3.8 when compared to Slika 3.4 in respect to incident 2 according

9 to your scale amounts to two to three kilometres in the direction of fire

10 for incident 2?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How much, according to your scale, approximately?

13 A. This sketch has not been done in such a scale so that you can

14 assess how far the lines are.

15 Q. You put a scale of 1 kilometre to 80 millimetres on 3.8, is it

16 your evidence that that scale is meaningless?

17 A. No, it has no relevance.

18 Q. Very well. Could you agree with me that in the map that you have

19 filed --

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you just for my clarification,

21 Mr. Stamp, you say it moves approximately -- you said three to four

22 kilometres.

23 MR. STAMP: I think I said two to three, I hope I said two to

24 three.

25 JUDGE ORIE: That would mean that you would have it moved on the

Page 20353

1 map 16 to 24 centimetres; is that correct?

2 MR. STAMP: Yes. Thank you. No, no, 16 --

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's 80 millimetres, 80 millimetres is 8 centimetres,

4 isn't it?

5 MR. STAMP: I beg your pardon, no, I withdraw that. That is an

6 error and I'm very grateful for your guidance, Mr. President.

7 Q. Now, you will agree with me that in the maps that you have filed

8 with the English report, all of the lines for -- in respect of these three

9 figures correspond to the lines as in Slika 3.4?

10 A. May I just see 3.4, please? Yes, yes.

11 Q. You said earlier that you drew your lines from the 1:50.000 VRS

12 military map; is that your evidence that you drew the lines on the basis

13 of a 1:50.000 scale VRS map?

14 A. 1 to 5.000, I have never had such a map. 1 to 5.000?

15 Q. 1:50.000.

16 A. Yes, yes, of course. Then obviously the interpretation was

17 incorrect.

18 Q. May I show to the witness, with your leave, Mr. President, an

19 extract from a map already in evidence, C-2. This was a map which was

20 disclosed by the Defence and has been indicated to being, by the Defence,

21 as a map which the expert refers to in his the report as the one he used?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.


24 Q. Is that a copy of the map you used to draw your line, to draw the

25 confrontation lines?

Page 20354












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Page 20355

1 A. Yes, more or less, yes.

2 Q. And do you see a part of it that is circled in red?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you point to it on the ELMO, please?

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. That is in the vicinity of Dobrinja where the lines are also

7 marked on the other map, other maps that I showed you.

8 A. According to this map, the incident number 2 took place on the

9 Serb territory the way that this has been sketched, drawn.

10 Q. I'm just asking simply, is that the map you used to draw your

11 lines?

12 A. More or less, yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the Chamber has been provided with -- let

14 me just have a look.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Maps with and without red markings, it's a bit

17 confusing for us. I apologise, it's the Chamber itself who marked the

18 map. Please proceed.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just wanted

21 to say something, that I am rather handicapped in terms of the transcript

22 if I could have some technical assistance. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the technical booth will certainly assist you.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Stamp.

Page 20356


2 Q. Witness, notwithstanding that the lines on the VRS military map

3 that you used are a little broad, I suggest to you that they correspond to

4 the lines that you have used in Slika 3.8. Slika 3.8 is your original

5 B/C/S map. Could you be shown Slika 3.8, please.

6 Witness, you are looking at the wrong document. There it is.

7 A. According to this map, the enlarged map, practically incident

8 number 2 occurred on the Serb territory which is not logical.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stamp wait for the interpretation,

10 please.

11 MR. STAMP: I have to interrupt because I want to move through

12 this quickly, very quickly.

13 Q. I suggest to you that what you are saying is not correct that

14 according to that map that incident 2 occurred on Serb territory but all

15 I'm asking you now: Doesn't that line in that area on that military map

16 that you say you used correspond to Slika 3.8? That's the question.

17 A. I don't know what to answer because here, the map is so roughly

18 drawn.

19 Q. Witness, you used this roughly-drawn map according to you, to draw

20 your lines. I'm asking you a simple question: Does the lines, as you see

21 them on that map which you used to draw the lines that you presented to

22 Court, correspond with your lines in Slika 3.8?

23 A. May I be allowed to answer and to explain? You won't let me

24 answer the question. I have to explain.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Explain, please, I need you

Page 20357

1 to answer the facts.

2 JUDGE ORIE: First, you answer the question and then you will get

3 an opportunity to explain, but you first should answer the question. And

4 the question is whether the roughly-drawn line on the military map,

5 whether that line corresponds with the line you have drawn on Slika 3.8.

6 That's the question.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it doesn't correspond.

8 MR. STAMP: Very well.

9 Q. Witness, I suggest to you that the lines in your English report,

10 the one that is filed, are not the correct lines of confrontation in the

11 Dobrinja area, that you changed them to fit incident 2?

12 A. It is true that the lines do not correspond.

13 Q. Well that is true, good. I'd like you to have a look at your

14 English report. We have your English report, that is one to your right

15 there. Please look at page 36. That page is part of your analysis of

16 shelling incident number 2 and you will see that paragraph 2 on that page

17 begins by saying the data presented show lack of logic and is not

18 convincing. And you go on to catalogue what you consider areas which lack

19 logic and are not convincing.

20 Three lines from the end of that paragraph, you have catalogued

21 one of the reasons why it lacks logic and is not convincing because you

22 say, "Both the ballistic" -- I beg your pardon, "Both the official or

23 ballistic expert reports make no mention of the position of the line of

24 conflict."

25 Now in light of your obvious recognition of the importance of the

Page 20358

1 position of the line of conflict in respect to incident 2, would you

2 explain to the Court of the changes which that have been made resulting

3 ultimately in what the Prosecution submits is -- are maps with incorrect

4 lines being presented to the Court?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Vilicic, you now have been given an opportunity

6 to explain so ...

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I now explain?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you were asked to explain. Please do so.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our analysis, in our expert

10 report, as far as the distances were concerned, we used distances and

11 ranges only from the data that was given in the official reports or other

12 documents and we compared it to the witness statements and other

13 statements that we couldn't take for authentic because of the subjective

14 assessment of some witnesses who gave these statements.

15 In all of our examinations and analyses, we never said precisely

16 where exactly the firing position could be nor were we able to establish

17 that. In other words, we were never able to precisely say exactly what

18 distance was in question. We mentioned distances only from the aspect of

19 the assessment of the angle of descent from the aspect of the impact point

20 of the projectile. So if we're talking about incident number 2, then the

21 assessment was carried out only on the basis of what was established on

22 the site itself with the reports, with the on-site investigation with we

23 agreed bearing in mind the traces on the fence, the projectile exploded

24 above ground, that it was probably a very large angle of descent

25 considering the number of people who were hit, and it was on the basis of

Page 20359

1 that that we then proceeded to analyse from which range this projectile

2 could have been fired.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you are explaining something,

4 but you are not explaining what you were asked to explain. You were asked

5 to explain why, on the different maps, we find different confrontation

6 lines marked, whether it's relevant or not, whether you used it, whether

7 you used mainly other sources is a different matter. You were asked to

8 explain the difference in the marking of the confrontation lines on the

9 maps. That's the only thing you were asked to explain.

10 Would you please do that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me just explain.

12 When we handed over the Serb version on the CD-ROM together with it, we

13 attached the four pages of these maps with the corrected lines. It is

14 obvious that the Chamber did not receive this paper. Because there were

15 some problems to reproduce the Serb version, I contacted the Prosecution

16 associate by e-mail to tell her how to do this and I also said that apart

17 from the Serb text, we have also attached four new corrected maps and I

18 gave the pages, the pages that you're just quoting now, but I have to

19 stress that in all of our examinations, it is not relevant this, line that

20 I have put in, because the line has been inputted imprecisely. What I

21 mean to say is that it doesn't correspond to reality. It had a large

22 objective error because it wasn't our objective to actually draw that line

23 precisely. It's been drawn as precisely to place the incident that it

24 would be within that - for instance this incident number 2 is within the

25 Muslim territories of course - there were no movement of lines so that we

Page 20360












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20361

1 would get a better conclusion because we gave both maps.

2 Here, on this CD, I have, if it is possible, I can have copies

3 made.


5 Q. I've heard your explanation for the change in the lines in respect

6 to incident 2, that is on the record. Quickly, have a look at your sketch

7 in respect to incident 3. And that's at page 40 of the filed version of

8 your report. You may remove the B/C/S copy of your report now, we're not

9 going to be using it until later. Page 40.

10 Professor, you may close the B/C/S version of your report, we are

11 dealing with the one which has been filed which you said you prepared, the

12 English version. Thank you.

13 Do you see where the impact spots are marked on this map?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are they the correct location of the impact locations?

16 A. No. No. The photograph is inverted, you have been given a

17 different photograph. That's on page 40. On that CD that I'm talking

18 about there is also this correction that's included.

19 Q. Very well. It has been inverted. And also in the report that you

20 filed, the English version of the report that you filed and you said you

21 checked yourself, have a look at the photograph that you used in respect

22 to incident 2 and that is at page 35 of your report, photo number 1. Is

23 that the photograph you used to analyse the incident?

24 A. Yes, that's the Skoda that was damaged as a result of the shell,

25 that's from the official documents.

Page 20362

1 Q. Do you have the original -- the photograph that you used here in

2 court?

3 A. No, I don't have it here. But just a moment, as far as I can

4 remember, I turned this photograph around by 180 degrees so that the

5 direction from which it was taken corresponded exactly to the position of

6 the vehicle in the street, as far as I can remember.

7 MR. STAMP: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 1386. It's a

8 recall of a document already in evidence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It saves time, Mr. Stamp, if you indicate before.


11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry then, I apologise.


13 Q. Have a look at photo 0028269707.

14 A. Yes, as I said, I rotated it like this because it was more logical

15 for me for it to be placed in that way.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Logical to reverse the

17 position of the photograph so that the car appears to be east of the gate

18 instead of west of the gate or, sorry, the car appears to be west of the

19 gate instead of east of the gate? What is the logic in reversing the

20 photograph?

21 A. It was because the projectile came from the north and

22 exploded -- it exploded in front of the vehicle. If you take this

23 photograph as it is, the projectile came from the south but in the report,

24 it states that the projectile came from the north and exploded in front of

25 the vehicle and it hit a woman at the entrance.

Page 20363

1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you get a

2 bit confused --


4 JUDGE ORIE: -- with the names of counsel for the Prosecution I do

5 not. I asked Mr. [Microphone not activated] once what this means. Yes,

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, you were

8 speaking about elevations and it's the only answer I can give you but at

9 this stage, if the Prosecution could provide us with the original negative

10 of the photograph in question, if it has this negative so that it can be

11 checked subsequently in order to save time, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes, but let's

13 just hear what the witness tells us. He says that his recollection is

14 that he changed it from 180 degrees and you should not interfere at this

15 moment. You could, during the break, or offer to say if it would be of

16 any help we could -- but please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


18 Q. Very quickly witness, I heard your explanation. You used this

19 reversed photograph, did you not, in your analysis, to make or to

20 speculate that the direction of fire could have been from the other side,

21 from the other direction without in the report indicating in the report to

22 the Court that you had reversed the photograph?

23 A. No, we didn't change the direction, we did the opposite in order

24 to make sure that the photograph corresponded to the direction from which

25 the projectile came.

Page 20364

1 Q. Very well, you have answered. May I proceed? I'm trying to move

2 quickly; I'm not being impolite. I just wish to suggest to you that where

3 you manipulate exhibits in a report, you ought to indicate to the persons

4 to whom the report is addressed the manipulation and the reasons for it;

5 would you agree with that as an expert witness?

6 A. I don't agree that I manipulated anything.

7 Q. When you --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Vilicic, the question is the following: If you

9 turn a photograph 180 degrees because it becomes more logic with one

10 version of the event, that takes away, for anyone who reads the report,

11 the opportunity to notice such an inconsistency or such an illogic

12 difference between photograph and the version of the event. The question

13 now is that you should do that on your own without telling those who read

14 your report that you did it and why you did it, and whether this would not

15 be improper to do even if you might have done it with the best intentions.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this change, in my opinion,

17 doesn't change anything with regard to the conclusions about the place

18 where the projectile exploded and the altitude, the elevation and it

19 doesn't change the direction from which the projectile came.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Say the

21 photograph is illogic in view of the version given to you of the event,

22 would it not have been proper to draw the attention to this illogic rather

23 than by turning the photograph for 180 degrees to adapt to the version of

24 the event of the version that was presented to you it might have been of

25 importance to this Chamber for example not to believe one of the versions

Page 20365

1 that appear in not your report, but in other reports.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When you have the negative of a

3 photograph, you can print it in both ways.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber is aware of that.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our intention was not, by any means,

6 to change the meaning but just to make sure that the description

7 corresponded to the position of the vehicle. It's stated that the vehicle

8 was in front of the entrance and that Zorka Simic was standing in front of

9 the entrance, the projectile hit her, it exploded and caused damage,

10 deformation and given the position of the street, where the vehicle was,

11 this photograph corresponds to the situation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You turned the photograph for 180 degrees because you

13 thought that would fit better into what you had read about the cause of

14 events; is that true?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please then move to your next subject.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Witness, quickly have a look at your sketch in respect to incident

19 4. That is at page 45 of your report. You said you drew those sketches

20 yourself. Look at the impact marks on those sketches. Have you

21 represented in your report the correct locations of the impact mark to the

22 top left of the picture? And that is the one on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva

23 Street.

24 A. Yes, that's how we marked those two impacts.

25 Q. On what basis or information did you put the impact on

Page 20366












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20367

1 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva street on that side of the street on that building?

2 A. From the map of Sarajevo -- well, I found these streets in the map

3 of Sarajevo. And as far as I can remember, it said that a projectile fell

4 in the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva street and the other one on the surface

5 behind the building.

6 Q. Professor, you have presented a report which I'm sure yourself and

7 your two colleagues took care in presenting to the Court. Are you aware

8 that the Prosecution alleges that the impact on the building on the window

9 frame in Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street came from the east?

10 A. Well the direction of fire is indicated as being from the east.

11 The direction of fire is from the east.

12 Q. Is it possible for a projectile arriving from the east to hit a

13 ground floor window or wall on that side of the street of

14 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street?

15 A. Do you mean the building in the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva street was

16 possible if it came from the direction that has been indicated, why not?

17 It is quite possible for it to hit that building.

18 Q. I'm not speaking of the building I am speaking of a part of the

19 building. Are you aware that it is a the Prosecution's case that the

20 impact on the building on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street occurred at the

21 corner of a window and the wall of a ground floor apartment, are you aware

22 of that?

23 A. That's what it says in the documents, that's not in dispute.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Aware of that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20368

1 Q. Where you have put this impact on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street,

2 look at it, is it possible for a mortar projectile -- the question is: Is

3 it possible for a mortar projectile arriving from the east to hit the

4 ground floor or a window of an apartment on that street, on that side of

5 the street where you have put this impact mark?

6 A. This is not at all the mark for the impact on the building, this

7 circle here doesn't refer to the window in the building being hit, it

8 refers to the field, to the ground, the fall of the shell on the ground.

9 The projectile hitting the window of the building couldn't have provided a

10 basis for any assessment. One could have used it to assess the direction

11 from which it came but it couldn't have been the basis of any other form

12 of analysis.

13 Q. I take your answers that you are representing --

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Stamp, I'm sorry, -- I'm sorry, I lost the

15 line. Just a minute, please. Line 20, page 25, you said the following:

16 "Are you aware that the Prosecution alleges that the impact on the

17 building, on the window frame in Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street came from

18 the east?" Is that correct?

19 MR. STAMP: Yes, generally from the east. If I -- may I refer to

20 the evidence in respect to that?

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No, no, it's not necessary. I wanted to be

22 sure of that.


24 Q. Your explanation, witness, is that it represents a shell which

25 fell on the ground in which case I'd like you to have a look at Exhibit

Page 20369

1 P2245 -- 47, I beg your pardon.

2 But before you do, let me ask you another question. You said that

3 that impact mark to the top left was in reference to a -- okay, withdrawn.

4 Have a look at the exhibit and I wish to direct your attention to

5 photo number -- here it is, the first one 00268245 which is a photograph

6 that you have used on your report?

7 A. Yes, that's the projectile that hit the ground.

8 Q. And you have correctly shown the angle from which it was taken on

9 your sketch?

10 A. I have to say that the angle -- yes, according to the photograph,

11 that would logically be the direction.

12 Q. And it is correct. Please just answer the question simply, there

13 are many points of agreement. The photograph that you examined had

14 arrows, did it have a caption to it which you see there on the photograph,

15 which read, "Wide angle of scene area between Oslobodilaca Sarajeva and

16 Dz. Nehrua streets were two 120 millimetre shells landed" - I am slowing

17 down - "nine people were killed and many wounded in the explosion, arrow

18 marks where the shells landed."

19 MR. STAMP: Perhaps, Madam Registrar, a copy of Exhibit 2247.1,

20 which is a translation of the caption could be handed to the Court.

21 Q. What I'm suggesting to you, witness, is this, that a conscientious

22 examination of the photograph which you used for your report would have

23 indicated that both impacts on the ground were in the courtyard. If you

24 were careful in your assessment of the evidence and the photographs, then

25 this photograph that you have used clearly shows that both impacts on the

Page 20370

1 ground were in that courtyard shown in the photograph.

2 A. According to the report which was provided, there were two impacts

3 in front of the underground garage and there were craters which were 97

4 centimetres deep which we used in the analysis and this impact in the

5 ground was not used, or rather only a comment was made.

6 Q. In other words, you don't think it is important where you put

7 impact marks in sketches which you are presenting for the Court's

8 consideration? It doesn't really matter what you put down there.

9 A. That's not what I said.

10 Q. Very well. Quickly, the last issue I want to deal with in respect

11 to methodology, may I take you to your -- to the English version of your

12 report, page 46. You said in the middle of the page in the last paragraph

13 before -- maybe I should just count it I withdraw that, you said in the

14 middle of the page in the passage beginning, "The fact," and I will read

15 it, "The fact that two mortar shells and one unidentified projectile have

16 hit a site of limited dimensions within two --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down while you are

18 reading.

19 MR. STAMP: I'm so sorry. I apologise.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We all go quicker if we read. Could you please slow

21 down.

22 MR. STAMP: "The fact that two mortar shells and one unidentified

23 projectile have hit a site of limited dimensions within through to three

24 minutes only can be considered accidental. If, at the distance of about

25 100 metres from this locality, Oslobodilaca Sarajeva number 3 (statement

Page 20371

1 of Witness number 1) barracks of the Muslim forces were situated it is

2 possible that they were the target to the weapons located in different

3 positions at different ranges from the barracks."

4 At page 44, in the middle of the page, you indicate Witness number

5 1 is Zahida Kadric, you also indicate that you analysed the statements of

6 witness number 2, Azra Omerspahic.

7 In your conclusions at reference 3.4, that's your conclusion at

8 page 59, you say there is lack of reliable evidence that the locality

9 affected was intended target of fire since military object housing Muslim

10 forces also the dividing separating lines of the conflict were situated in

11 close vicinity.

12 In other words, witness, you have drawn conclusions and made

13 statements on the basis of what Zahida Kadric is supposed to have said in

14 her statements. The question is did Zahida Kadric say in her statement

15 that there were military barracks 100 metres from the incident? Witness,

16 would you prefer if I give you a copy of her statement, the B/C/S

17 versions, original versions of her statements and after the break you can

18 tell us whether or not she said that?

19 A. I have it.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object both

21 the fact that the Prosecution itself asked the witness not to examine his

22 document insert and the tone seems a little rough to me, Mr. President.

23 MR. STAMP: I apologise if my tone seemed a little rough. The

24 thing is that I wanted to move through this area in 45 minutes and it has

25 taken a little over that.

Page 20372












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20373

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is -- I think your apologies will be accepted

2 by the witness.

3 MR. STAMP: It's a simple question -- well, I'm sorry,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The question is that where you refer to a certain

6 witness, whether in the statement of this witness, there appears anything

7 about the presence of military barracks.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have all the material here,

9 all the entire statement but the statement was such, there was such a

10 statement. And the assumption that that could have been the target, that

11 was concluded on the basis of the fact that shells were fired from a great

12 distance. And in a fairly short period of time, two projectiles were

13 fired, only these projectiles from analysed.


15 Q. We will get into that later. I'm just trying to understand the

16 methodology that you have used in writing, preparing, and presenting this

17 report. You have said that on the basis of the statements of a witness

18 who has not testified --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, it's 10.30. I'd like to have a break but

20 I would first like to ask madam usher to escort the witness out of the

21 courtroom. We'll adjourn for half an hour, Dr. Vilicic.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, we can spend a lot of time on this issue

24 but I'd like to draw your attention to two different ways of reading page

25 46, the paragraph you were referring to where it says, "If, at the

Page 20374

1 distance of about 100 metres from this locality (Oslobodilaca Sarajeva

2 number 3, statement of Witness number 1), barracks of Muslim forces were

3 situated. It is possible that they were the target to weapons located in

4 different positions," et cetera.

5 The reference to the statement of Witness number 1 of which you

6 said that on page 44, evidence is summarised that there were no military

7 objects in the settlement, could be to the presence of barracks and then I

8 fully understand what your problem is. If, however, the reference to the

9 statement of Witness number one would refer to locality, and locality is

10 the place where the event happened, the locality "Oslobodilaca Sarajevo

11 number 3 statement of witness number 1," I haven't, in my mind, the

12 statement of that witness but if the witness said that it all happened on

13 Oslobodilaca Sarajevo number 3, then we might spend a lot of time and have

14 a lot of confusion on a contradiction or an imprecision which might not

15 exist. Could you please keep this in mind.

16 MR. STAMP: I'll keep that in mind, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll adjourn until 11.00.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you

19 provide the necessary instructions to the Prosecution so that we can have

20 the negative of the photograph. We would like to check something if this

21 is possible.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... The Chamber if

23 the negative of the photograph does exist then the Chamber would also be

24 interested too but I take it that it's a picture from a report which has

25 been delivered without negatives.

Page 20375

1 MR. STAMP: We do not have the negatives.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, could you please escort the witness into

6 the courtroom.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

8 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Witness, in respect to the photograph that you indicated you

10 reversed for the purpose of enhancing logic, may I suggest to you that the

11 expert report or the investigative report of the analyst, which is in

12 evidence before the Court, refers to a green Skoda motor car facing east

13 and that is how it appears on the photograph which is in evidence and

14 which is taken from the north. By your reversal, it is suggested you have

15 put it facing west and making it inconsistent with the report of the

16 expert. Do you agree or disagree?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, could you please put on the

19 microphone -- your microphone is off, Dr. Vilicic, and we don't want to

20 miss a word of you. It's on now, yes.


22 Q. Witness, at page 8 to 17 of your report, you speak about the

23 effectiveness of mortar rounds, the likelihood of casualties.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

25 whether this is important that the answers are given to the questions of

Page 20376

1 the Prosecution but I clearly said -- heard what the witness said and

2 the -- that would have to bear in the transcript so could we please --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Vilicic, did I understand you well that you

4 disagreed with which -- what was put to you by Mr. Stamp?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.


7 Q. And in calculating the probability of victims being hit, you have

8 used certain formulas.

9 You don't need to show him, madam usher, thank you very much.

10 Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And the formulas that you used are partly based on a theoretical

13 construct with certain assumptions including persons are spread one square

14 metre apart on horizontal terrain; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You also have indicated in your report that the that will radius

17 of the 82 millimetre round is 18.6 metres; is that correct?

18 A. 82 and 16.1; 18.6, 120. Table 6, first row. First row.

19 Q. 16.1 metres is the lethal effect for the 82 millimetre mortar and

20 18.6 for the 120 millimetre mortar?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. I'd like to ask you what is the maximum distance from the

23 explosion that the fragments can cause injury to any person who might be

24 hit?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I withdraw that.

Page 20377

1 A. The effective range is the range when the energy of an impact is

2 100 joules per 1 centimetre square, that is --

3 THE INTERPRETER: One metre square, interpreter's correction.

4 A. And some fragments, depending on the size of the fragment and the

5 initial velocity can go to different distances but the issue is

6 about -- is their energy is reduced with distance so some fragments can go

7 50, 100 metres, but then you will not have that energy that will be

8 sufficient to cause injury, lethal injury. A lethal injury is 100 joules

9 per centimetre square.

10 Q. I would just like to remind you to simply answer my question. You

11 have indicated that fragment particles can go 50 to 100 metres they can

12 cause injury but they are not necessarily lethal. I'd like you to have a

13 look at a sketch -- please could the witness be shown this document, this

14 sketch.

15 And while that is being done just for the record, you agreed that

16 up to 100 metres the amount of particles still travelling might cause

17 injury but not lethal injury?

18 A. Some fragments, but practically speaking, from the point of view

19 of effectiveness and calculations, standards say that 82 millimetres would

20 be 120 metres maximum, that would be the effective range. That would be

21 against troops and that would be --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness slow down, please.

23 MR. STAMP: Could you please slow down.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters ask you to slow down, Dr. Vilicic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we are carrying out

Page 20378

1 calculations for effectiveness, the necessary number of projectiles in

2 order to destroy the target.


4 Q. I know that there are a variety of calculations for different

5 purposes. Simply you're saying 120 metres with the 82 millimetre mortar,

6 the fragments can cause injury. How far for the 120 millimetre mortar can

7 the fragments cause injury?

8 A. No, no. No. No, I didn't say that 82 millimetres can be 120. We

9 had -- in practice we had one case of injury, light injury at 80 metres so

10 it cannot go that far, the fragments do have such energy to be dispersed

11 so far. Small fragments lose energy very quickly they have a small mass.

12 Q. How far can fragments from the explosive burst of the 82

13 millimetre cause injury, what's the maximum distance; do you know?

14 A. What I'm telling you is that according to military standards, that

15 in calculating the range of effectiveness for 82 millimetre shell, you

16 calculate that 20 metres and 120 millimetre shell, 30 metres.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to take away some confusion. You're

18 talking about, Dr. Vilicic, about calculations you'd make about

19 effectivity. Mr. Stamp is asking you what would be the maximum distance

20 from the point of explosion where you might find injuries? I think you

21 answered that question in respect of 82 millimetre mortars where you said

22 that it -- that once you found a light injury at 80 metres which, as far

23 as I understand, was relatively exceptional in your view.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So approximately the maximum where you would find

Page 20379

1 even a small light injury. Could you answer that same question in respect

2 of 120 millimetre mortars? At what distance would you possibly find

3 someone lightly injured by a 120 millimetre mortar shell that exploded?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That range is lower than the minimum

5 range for an impact of a shell. If you have a look at the table, 120

6 millimetre shell, minimum range is 85 metres, and for a -- to be

7 absolutely precise for 120 millimetre shell that would be about 100 metres

8 or so but I would have to look at the table. Otherwise, one's own troops

9 would be destroyed with mortars.

10 JUDGE ORIE: What table were you referring to exactly?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 5 for 120 millimetre mortar and

12 page 3.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, certainly we are talking about the distance from

14 the point of impact so I would say it comes closer to what you described

15 in table 6, I would say, where you say that the lethal radius is 60 metre

16 or 80 metres but we are not talking about the radius as such but what

17 would be the maximum, I take it that the radius is also an average of the

18 distances on which you would still find people to be killed, what, and I'm

19 therefore asking you where you said that you once found someone lightly

20 injured at 80 metres by an explosion of an 82 millimetres --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Metres, metres --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think I said metres. No. 80 metres by an

23 explosion of an 82 millimetre mortar shell, yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: What was the longest, the -- what was the greatest

Page 20380

1 distance that you found from someone being injured by a 120 millimetre

2 shell.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't look into this. We assess

4 the effectiveness of a projectile in an arena and arena's radius maximum

5 is 20 metres, the outer would be 40. It would depend on the calibre.

6 It's an arena, you check it that segments are positioned, two or three

7 inch planks are positioned and that's how you can assess the number of

8 perforations and traces. These traces or scratches would mean how much

9 this would be hit and that would be equal to an injury so it

10 would -- that's how we would measure the effective energy and in those

11 arenas, we never examine how far fragments could travel how far they could

12 fly but these distances are smaller than the minimum distances that are

13 supposed to be hit with those mortars. But because mortar is normally

14 used from above, then -- then on the ground they are used vertically then

15 the crews themselves would be injured.


17 Q. Witness, have a look at the diagram on the ELMO. Does the

18 theoretical formula that you used to calculate hit probability take into

19 consideration fragments like the one indicated by the arrow above the line

20 and the arrow above the head of the man standing?

21 A. Yes, it's used standing person in these analysis, that's about

22 half a metre of width and two metres of vertical height, that's what it's

23 used as a standard everywhere in the world for a standing figure of a man,

24 half a metre by two metres.

25 Q. So the analysis --

Page 20381

1 A. You don't calculate anything else over that, fragments that fly

2 over two metres are not taken into consideration.

3 Q. You -- would you agree with me that the positions of the persons

4 in respect to the impact site, in reality, would be very important to

5 factor into any assessment as to hit probability?

6 A. I didn't understand. Perhaps it's a problem of interpretation. I

7 didn't understand your question well. I'm now listening in English.

8 Q. If one should analyse an report upon an incident which actually

9 happened, it is important to factor in the positions where persons are in

10 respect to the explosion. That is, the position of the persons in

11 relation to the site of the explosions.

12 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's what's needed to be known. Yes. But in

13 these specific situations, this was not known.

14 Q. Well, we had evidence about the positions of victims in respect to

15 each of the scheduled incidents before you submitted your report in

16 September; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, yes, but --

18 Q. Take incident number 1.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The -- are you aware that the football game was being played at a

21 corner of a car park which was near to a residential building?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you aware that the ground to the east of where the impact site

24 occurred rises up to go into the residential buildings? That the ground

25 to the east of the impact site would be about a metre higher than the

Page 20382

1 impact site itself.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you aware that at the southern side of where the football game

4 was being played, the ground also rises?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you aware that the evidence is that on the other side of the

7 football game there were persons, including children, spectators, sitting

8 atop parked vehicles watching the game?

9 A. Very well. Yes, all right.

10 Q. Would you agree with me that having regard to the difference to

11 the relative positions of these people in that they are higher than the

12 impact site, a theoretical formula which is based on uniform horizontal

13 ground could not apply to predict how many people would be hit because

14 persons in elevated positions would be within the area where they could be

15 hit?

16 I'd like to withdraw that question and put it one part at a time.

17 Would you agree with me, having regard to the difference in the

18 relative positions of the people at the football game in that they were in

19 elevated positions as spectators, a theoretical construct based on

20 horizontal ground would not apply to predict --

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. Could you explain to the Court how it is that you would --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Go on.

25 A. Because what we assumed is that all the persons were on the pitch,

Page 20383

1 on the level of the pitch. That means that they were practically along

2 the lines of the pitch. That means that persons were in the least

3 favorable position, the closest to the impact of the explosion. I think

4 you can see that on the sketch for incident number 1 on page -- English

5 text, let me just find it, on page 32. This rectangle, there are two

6 rectangles, the outside rectangle represents that all the people watching

7 the game were within this rectangle, that means that they were positioned

8 around the pitch. That is the least favorable position considering that

9 the shells exploded on the surface of the pitch.

10 Much more unfavourable --

11 Q. That is your explanation that you assume that the victims are on

12 the ground around the pitch at the same level or elevation as the

13 explosion?

14 A. Yes. That's the least favorable situation.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... That couldn't apply in this

16 particular incident. Let's look at incident 2 where you also apply this

17 theoretical construct. Have a look at the diagram I showed you. You

18 see --

19 A. Which diagram, on the ELMO?

20 Q. On the ELMO, please. You see to the left of the diagram where I

21 have -- where it is drawn the impact site?

22 A. This, yes.

23 Q. Your theoretical construct certainly would not take into

24 consideration fragments which were going downward.

25 A. It does take it into consideration, it's taking into consideration

Page 20384

1 everything from zero to two metres of height, all the fragments, even

2 those that ricochet.

3 Q. Zero is the impact site on the ground; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Does it take into consideration anything, any fragment which could

6 be going below the ground downward?

7 A. I'm not sure whether you understand.

8 Q. Please, I am putting to you that your theoretical construct does

9 not take into account fragments which go downward.

10 A. Unfortunately, I have to come to the conclusion that you are not

11 familiar with the methodology of determining the effectiveness of

12 projectiles, to determine the effectiveness of projectiles you have to

13 take into consideration all --

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Understand to be -- by

15 answering my questions. In your theoretical construct which includes the

16 assumption that the shell explodes on horizontal ground, you would not

17 take account of any fragments that would be going downward into the

18 ground.

19 A. All fragments that ricochet are taken into account because it is

20 by this means that you determine the density of the fragments for each

21 projectile and that is one of the main values that is used when creating a

22 model for calculations.

23 Q. Which ricochet off the ground and go up, you would not take into

24 account fragments which go down into the ground. I wonder if I'm making

25 my --

Page 20385

1 A. A fragment that penetrates the ground can't be taken into account,

2 yes.

3 Q. Simply. In incident 2, are you aware that the impact occurred

4 approximately one metre above the ground?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Are you aware that it occurred at a gate leading to a yard which

7 was further -- which was lower, much lower -- let me withdraw "much,"

8 which was lower than the street level?

9 A. Am I aware of that, yes. Not much, but about 70 centimetres, the

10 two steps that led into the courtyard, as far as I can remember.

11 Q. Are you aware that many of the witnesses who testified in court

12 were injured while they were in that courtyard which would be out of the

13 consideration of your theoretical construct because they were below the

14 point of explosion?

15 A. No, that's not correct. Your conclusion is not correct. Because

16 the calculation models include the density of fragments which is typical

17 for each projectile, which is different for each projectile so that such a

18 conclusion cannot be reached.

19 Q. The question is are you aware that some of the persons who were

20 injured in that explosion were sitting in a yard or were at a pump in a

21 yard which was below the position of the explosion?

22 A. I think that you are forgetting the fact that the projectile

23 exploded in the air and that --

24 Q. I'm not forgetting that fact. Witness, simply, were you aware

25 when you did your report that some of the persons injured were positioned

Page 20386

1 at a lower elevation in relation to the site of the explosion? Were you

2 aware of that when you did your report?

3 A. Only in the direction of the pump, only in the direction of the

4 pump.

5 Q. So your answer is yes --

6 A. That's a lower altitude, it's lower down.

7 Q. And I say it that your theoretical construct and mathematical

8 simulations would not apply to those persons who were injured?

9 A. You're forgetting the fact that we came to the conclusion that the

10 results of ours corresponded to the number of people who were wounded and

11 you're forgetting that fact. Have a look at table 2.5.

12 Q. My suggestion to you, sir, if you just answer is that your

13 theoretical construct does not take into account the spatial distribution

14 of fragments downward so it would not take into account the persons who

15 were located at a lower elevation to the impact site; do you agree or do

16 you disagree? That is all I am putting to you, witness.

17 A. I don't agree because it's completely incorrect. Our results show

18 a greater number of people who were hit than the actual number, sir, and

19 the number was greater than the actual number.

20 Q. Witness -- sorry, Professor, are you aware of the number of people

21 who were inside that yard around that pump in the front yard? It's a

22 simple question, you don't need to refer to your report, witness, let's

23 move quickly.

24 A. Mustn't I look at the report? Am I not to look at the report?

25 JUDGE ORIE: If you --

Page 20387

1 MR. STAMP: Answer the question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you need to look at the report to answer the

3 question please do so and if you can do without but ...

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just had a look to remind myself

5 of the names of the witness who mentioned the number of people in the

6 queue for water. Enver Taslaman in his first statement said that there

7 were 120 men in the queue and he -- when testifying before the Trial

8 Chamber he said there were 150.


10 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you witness I'm not talking about the

11 people queueing for water that is not what the question is about, the

12 question is about the amount of people who were in the yard with the pump.

13 Do you know how many people were there?

14 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. Stamp, is it your position that if

15 people are a little bit lower than ground level that you would get a

16 higher or lower number of injured people or casualties? May I just ask

17 you what your position is because the Chamber has great difficulties, I

18 checked with the other Judges, to understand that if persons are a bit

19 lower, they are not any higher anymore so if you take into consideration

20 the -- that some extra fragments could hit people at a lower level, there

21 are more fragments then at the same time these people are missing at a

22 higher level to receive the fragments that are flying there.

23 You understand what I mean? And therefore we have great

24 difficulties in understanding your line of questioning and we noticed that

25 the witness also has.

Page 20388

1 MR. STAMP: The position is that the -- perhaps the witness should

2 be sent out, of course.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can ask the witness just to leave for one

4 second.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- before you explain, what my

7 understanding, and I take it also the understanding of the other Judges is

8 that of course if a person is at a lower level as the point of impact, the

9 down-going fragments could hit that persons and on the horizontal level

10 they would not be calculated. At the same time, all the fragments that

11 are flying horizontally and that would hit that person if it was not at a

12 lower level is not there anymore to be hit. So I don't know whether you

13 calculated this all in because it -- but this is, I'm not an expert, but

14 on the basis of, I would say, of normal reasoning it would see what you

15 gain as possible area below the level you will miss it at a higher level.

16 MR. STAMP: Yes, if I may, Mr. President, briefly.


18 MR. STAMP: The purpose of the cross-examination is to indicate

19 that the theoretical model the witness is using does not apply. One has

20 to relate the evidence of this witness that persons, that two metres up,

21 above two metre doesn't apply -- may I withdraw that and rephrase. His

22 formulas would not apply to structures or persons higher than two metres.

23 The explosion occurred one metre up. According to the witness it is about

24 70 centimetres down, centimetres or -- 17? He did give a figure.

25 JUDGE ORIE: 70.

Page 20389

1 MR. STAMP: Which is less than two metres so horizontal particles

2 would be hitting persons standing in the garden and the particles which

3 his formula discounted that go downward would also be hitting persons

4 sitting in the garden as is the evidence of Rasim Mehonjic.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes but at the same time the particles that would fly

6 I would say up 50 centimetres that would normally hit a person if he was

7 at the same level finds no person there anymore to be hit so

8 therefore -- the witness was talking about the density of fragments.

9 MR. STAMP: Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And I think that's the whole issue. He says we find

11 a density of fragments at a certain distance which is there or there.

12 Then of course you need objects to be hit by those fragments, whether they

13 are low, so that the fragments did not end into the earth but could

14 continue to fly or whether these person are a bit higher, perhaps you

15 asked the witness whether it would influence the density of fragments

16 because that's the whole issue and we really have great difficulties in

17 following you -- apart from what the mathematical consequences of that

18 would exactly be that if I have an explosion here and the people all a bit

19 lower, then of course there might be a slight difference but they will be

20 hit by the particles flying down but they will not be hit anymore by the

21 particles flying horizontally so therefore the -- it's a -- you are

22 entering into a very, very detailed discussion on which the witness seems

23 to have no clue how to handle it and therefore I thought it wise to --

24 MR. STAMP: Very well I'll move on but as I -- I'll move on. As I

25 indicated though we still maintain that even on his evidence, those flying

Page 20390

1 horizontally would be effective.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but only for -- let's say 20 or 30 centimetres

3 perhaps that part of the body that would be high enough to catch the

4 horizontal flying fragments.

5 MR. STAMP: Yes.


7 MR. STAMP: The head.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, for example -- yes. I can imagine that.

9 MR. STAMP: Very well, I will move on.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We see that the witness cannot cope with this and I

11 understand why.

12 MR. STAMP: I will try to proceed as it pleases the Court.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to avoid any

14 problems with regard to this issue, I heard the Professor's testimony, he

15 spoke about 70 centimetres and then two steps. We know that two steps,

16 that's about 36 centimetres, that's twice 18, according to the norms so I

17 would like to see the photographs now, perhaps to see whether this

18 concerns two steps or not and to ask him this question because there is a

19 significant difference here.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that you will be able to find them

21 during the next break and then you of course can put them to the witness.

22 Please, madam usher, could you escort the witness into the

23 courtroom.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 20391


2 Q. Witness, going back to my last question, are you aware of the

3 amount and density of people who were at the gate and in the vicinity of

4 the pump in the yard?

5 A. We're aware of the total number from these testimonies, on the

6 basis of these testimonies, it's between 100 and 150. That was the

7 figure.

8 Q. Where were these 100 to 150 people?

9 A. Well, they were said to be in the water queue and then in the

10 calculation you can see that we used.

11 Q. Very well, I was asking about the gate and the area of the pump

12 but I will move on.

13 I'd like to ask a few questions about what you said in respect to

14 the Markale incident. You said it was clearly an impact detonation,

15 that's what you said yesterday?

16 A. As far as the explosion is concerned, yes, yes. Yes, I said it

17 was an explosion.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Occurred on the surface of

19 the ground?

20 A. Yes. Which is what all the other witnesses stated.

21 Q. Yes. Can you have a look at your figure 2.1 in your

22 report -- 2.21 at page 20.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In other words, it was not an explosion like that, it was not an

25 on-the-ground explosion?

Page 20392

1 A. The figure 2.21 is a graphic depiction of the values used in

2 calculating the depth of penetration of a projectile. It has nothing to

3 do with -- it has no direct connection with Markale. It has to do with

4 the calculation of the penetration depth.

5 Q. Very well. When the mortar shell explodes, according to the page

6 12 of your report there is a frontal swathe which comprises two part, the

7 first part being particles of the fuse and of the shell case, front ogival

8 part near the mouth and the second part being fragments from the remaining

9 portion of the case ogival and you show that in figure 2.13 that there is

10 a frontal swathe of fragments.

11 A. Yes, that's what it looks like. That's for under 120 millimetres,

12 it's figure 2.13. It's for 120 millimetre shell, yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. That's the zone of lethal fragments for various drop velocities.

15 Q. Witness, I'd like to show you a photograph with the assistance of

16 the usher. This is a high-speed x-ray photograph of the burst and

17 fragmentation of a high-impact projectile. Is that a high-speed

18 photograph -- x-ray photograph of the burst of a high-speed projectile?

19 A. This is not a mortar shell, this is an artillery shell and it

20 disintegrates, disperses in a way that is totally different in which a

21 mortar shell disintegrates.

22 Q. What I am asking basically -- very well, it is an artillery shell?

23 A. This is a photograph of an artillery projectile, a shell, that's

24 correct.

25 Q. Now what I wish to ask you is whether or not in the process of the

Page 20393

1 shell bursting in what you describe here to be an artillery projectile you

2 see in the photograph to the right the body of the projectile swells

3 before it bursts?

4 A. To the left, this is the projectile before it bursts, before it

5 explodes and here, we have the stages when the process of explosion has

6 commenced.

7 Q. Now, I agree with you that an artillery shell disperses in a

8 different way to the mortar shell, but wouldn't you agree with me that the

9 mortar shell also expands, the jacket swells and expands before it bursts?

10 A. Yes, that's such a rapid process, a few thousandths of a second

11 but the basic thing you must know is that the photograph of a shell which

12 is in the process of exploding isn't the same because an artillery

13 projectile because of high acceleration, it's -- the thickness of the case

14 increases at the bottom and in the case of the mortar shell, the

15 dimensions of the body are smaller and in the photograph that I provided

16 you with, you have the exact dimensions, they decrease.

17 Q. For the area of the fuse in the right photograph of the shell just

18 before it explodes, you see the fuse also swells slightly. Would that

19 also apply in respect to the burst of a mortar projectile?

20 A. Fuse? No, that's impossible.

21 Q. In respect to the artillery shell here, you can see the fuse has

22 expanded slightly.

23 A. In the case of some artillery fuses that have a larger diameter,

24 there can be deformations because of the shock wave, it can expand but in

25 the case of mortar fuses, especially the M-62 which is used a lot in the

Page 20394

1 former Yugoslavia, this can't happen. It can be ejected. The shock wave

2 can eject it frontally, this happens very often. That's why we have such

3 a clear impression of the fuse.

4 Q. Right. I suggest to you that on explosion, in respect to the

5 mortar shell, the fuse swells -- the fuse expands as well and is distorted

6 by the blast of the explosion in a mortar shell; do you agree or disagree?

7 A. Just a moment. I just want to check the translation because --

8 it's as I said: If the diameter of the fuse is slightly greater, if it

9 has the central part to penetrate but it will be affected by the shock

10 wave because it's an aluminum construction so it would not really swell,

11 it would not really expand. This is made of aluminum, the fuse is made of

12 aluminum, the body of the fuse which is wound on.

13 MR. STAMP: The photograph can be removed. Thank you very much.

14 Q. You said the shell at Markale exploded on the surface. Can you

15 tell us what caused the crater?

16 A. Every explosion results in the creation of a crater. If you put a

17 shell on the -- an anti-tank shell on a concrete surface it will also

18 cause a crater to be produced. If you're asking me about Markale.

19 Q. No, no, I'm talking about -- I'm referring to your --

20 A. Generally speaking.

21 Q. When a shell explodes on impact on the surface, what causes the

22 crater? And maybe you could assist us in explaining that by looking at

23 your figure 2.13.

24 A. The crater is caused by a explosion of a mortar shell, if we're

25 talking about a mortar shell. When the projectile impacts on the ground,

Page 20395

1 on the surface, a crater is created primarily because of the effect of the

2 front part of the fragments around the fuse and the fuse. That is the

3 first impact which leaves the trace. And the second part is the part of

4 the body, the fragments of a fragmented body of the shell will disperse

5 and they will leave traces on the surface, that will depend, of course, on

6 the type of the surface so there will be either more pronounced or less

7 pronounced traces. So that will depend on the effect of the fuse. The

8 crater could be of greater or lesser depth. That will depend on the fuse.

9 If it is an instant fuse it will make a very, very small crater, very

10 small crater. That will depend on the speed of the fuse and also how hard

11 the surface is. If it is a very hard surface, the crater will be shallow.

12 If it is softer than the crater will be deeper as I explained it

13 yesterday, you can also see it on that photograph.

14 Q. You have explained very well, thank you. So you know of

15 Professor Vukasinovic's research into the explosion of mortar projectiles,

16 you would be aware of it? You would be, yes or no, please?

17 A. Well, not only do I know that, but I was professor of Vukasinovic

18 and I spent my entire working life with him, I mean, we worked together

19 and also while he was doing his doctoral thesis, I helped him with some

20 consultations, Professor Stamatovic was his mentor and we jointly

21 conferred in some things and he did his Ph.D thesis extremely well and

22 he's known to be as one of our best experts in this area and I believe

23 also in the world because his works are also accepted in America.

24 Q. Yes. We'll get to his published work later. Would you agree with

25 me that the crater of an impact or a contact detonation on the surface is

Page 20396

1 caused by the frontal swathe of the products of a detonation as referred

2 to at page 12 of your report, which is taken almost verbatim from some of

3 his work?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. So with an instant fuse as in the Markale incident, would you

6 agree with me that the stabiliser does not penetrate the area where the

7 crater -- or may I rephrase.

8 In an explosion of a mortar shell with an instant fuse, if the

9 stabiliser should lodge, it does not penetrate the top surface which is

10 blasted away by the products of the detonation?

11 A. Coming back to the question what was the velocity of the

12 projectile if the velocity of the -- the impact velocity of the projectile

13 was higher than the velocity of the ejection of the stabiliser, then the

14 stabiliser will continue to go in that direction; however, if the impact

15 velocity was lesser, then the stabiliser would be ejected backwards.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid, Dr. Vilicic, that you did not understand

17 the question. The question is that if a tail fin finally ends because it

18 continues its trajectory, ends in the ground, that it will not be

19 confronted by the resistance of the soil or whatever surface it is that

20 has already been removed by the forces produced by the detonation.

21 MR. STAMP: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you understand that the first part of the path has

23 already been paved by the explosion and will not create any resistance to

24 the tail fin anymore. That's the question.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, the interpretation was

Page 20397

1 inadequate. I read the English transcript and your explanation now. So

2 in the first part of the penetration, up to the instant fuse effect, the

3 stabiliser is not involved in that stage. Later on, the stabiliser

4 continues to move in that direction and hits that surface, the depth of

5 the crater because of the fact that of the shell is not part of the

6 stabiliser penetration. These are two separate functions.

7 However, the crater, so that the stabiliser can go more deeply

8 then the crater has to be deeper, if we measure the depth of penetration

9 of the stabiliser depending on the surface, then the stabiliser, in order

10 to penetrate deeply has to have higher velocity and has to have this depth

11 of penetration will depend on the quality of the surface, of the

12 resistance of the surface.

13 Your question wasn't very clear. What did you want to know so

14 that -- to clarify it?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Vilicic, I think that you did not fully

16 understand actually what Mr. Stamp wanted to know. Mr. Stamp wants to

17 know whether the top layer of the surface on which a projectile lands has

18 been blasted away already by the explosion itself so that it will not

19 create any resistance once the tail fin, if it arrives with high enough

20 speed, comes to the ground level.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As I said, the stabiliser and

22 the projectile, these are two different stages. The crater caused by the

23 projectile and the crater, the penetration of the stabiliser through the

24 crater, these are two different -- two separate functions.


Page 20398

1 Q. I just want to make it absolutely clear, witness, I'm using your

2 report --

3 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no unclarities in respect to the

4 answer of the question just put first by you and -- if you get my meaning.


6 Q. For clarification, you gave us in table 4 of your report the

7 muzzle velocity of fragments. While I suggest to you, and -- I suggest to

8 you that the muzzle velocities that you have here are much lower than the

9 muzzle velocities?

10 A. Yes, the velocity of the dispersion of the fragments, the average

11 velocity of the fragment dispersion, table 4.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I do not understand your last question,

13 but "while I suggest to you and I suggest to you that the muzzle

14 velocities that you have here are much lower than the muzzle velocities."

15 MR. STAMP: Than the real time muzzle velocities for the 82

16 millimetre mortar -- I'm sorry the witness is not hearing. You just

17 indicated that you didn't hear me.

18 THE WITNESS: I didn't hear you.


20 Q. Let me suggest to you that the actual muzzle velocities for the 82

21 millimetre high explosive shell and the 120 millimetre high explosive

22 shell are about two to three times higher than what you have here. Do you

23 agree or disagree?

24 A. [Interpretation] No, no.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- to -- in order to avoid whatever

Page 20399

1 confusion, table 4 gives mean values of muzzle velocities, I don't know

2 whether you are referring to mean values or to maximum or minimum or...

3 MR. STAMP: Mean values.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mean values, yes. So Mr. Stamp puts to you that the

5 mean values indicated on page 9, table 4, are two to three times lower

6 than they actually are.

7 THE WITNESS: Higher, not smaller.

8 MR. STAMP: He's quite right.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so therefore that the --

10 MR. STAMP: Oh, I see, the question was quite properly put, I beg

11 your pardon.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well there's -- in reality, there are two or

13 three times higher and therefore represented the two to three times lower.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the detonation

15 explosion measured in our laboratory for TNT is 6.000 metres per second.

16 That is the velocity of the shock wave. Now, the mean velocity of the

17 fragments is calculated on the basis, on the basis of classification and

18 the representatives of the group of fragments. When we have a projectile

19 fragmenting, dispersing, the fragments are taken for calculation are taken

20 for fragments that are of mass 1 gram to 50 grams, that's the group of the

21 fragments depending on the calibre.

22 What's calculated is value for the mean fragment and it is the

23 value of that mean fragment is this mean velocity. Fragments move in

24 different -- at different velocity.

25 Q. All right. Let us assume that you are right and I am wrong.

Page 20400

1 Would you agree with me though that at velocities that you have given

2 here, the products of detonation would have created the crater before the

3 stabiliser arrives?

4 A. First of all, stabiliser is together with the projectile. The

5 blast of the projectile, if the velocity, drop velocity is higher than the

6 ejection of the stabiliser velocity, the stabiliser will continue its

7 direction of movement or it will go back if the velocity is lower.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Try to -- I'm -- I think what Mr. Stamp asks you is

9 whether the fragments that result from the explosion of the shell, that

10 the fragments have such a speed that they will create the crater, that is,

11 that they will damage the soil on which the projectile lands prior to the

12 arrival of the tail fin at that same surface. So that they are there

13 first do the damage cause a crater and only afterwards the tail fin would

14 arrive at that spot. Would you agree with that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I agree with that. First

16 the fuse hits and then there will be the frontal swathe of the fragments

17 would hit because of the blast, they will create the crater. After that

18 the stabiliser would arrive if it's velocity is higher as I've already

19 said.

20 JUDGE ORIE: It's not blown back.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


24 Q. So a lot of the analysis has to do with the fuse setting. Now, at

25 page 3 and at page 5 of your analysis, you indicate the fuse settings for

Page 20401

1 the 82 millimetre mortar, there is impact and superquick and at page 5,

2 for the 120 millimetre mortar, impact, superquick and delayed.

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And at page 18 of your report, you give us the specifications

5 according to Yugoslav or JNA tests for a superquick fuse: "In

6 modern" -- and I'm reading from the English version of your report, "In

7 modern impact percussion fuses of superquick action, sensitivity is

8 defined as target resistance that will surely activate the fuse"?

9 JUDGE ORIE: You are reading Mr. Stamp. That means you are quick.

10 MR. STAMP: I will start again. "In modern impact percussion

11 fuses of superquick action, sensitivity is defined as target resistance

12 that will surely activate the fuse. Usually it is a fir board about 25

13 millimetres thick and fuse reaction time is most frequently about one

14 millisecond."

15 Q. Is that a correct rendition of what you have written?

16 A. Yes, yes, that's stated in the footnote, you have the literature

17 is given that it's been quoted from.

18 Q. Now, would you agree with me that Krsic, Nikola Krsic was the only

19 Yugoslav who has done research into fuse speeds or has written a book

20 about it?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Your figure of one millisecond comes from his 1967 work?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you used his estimation of time of one millisecond to apply to

25 a modern impact percussion fuse of superquick action. That's what you

Page 20402

1 did; is that so?

2 A. Sir, on page 19 in the formula of the real penetration, if you

3 take less time than one millisecond, you would get lower values for the

4 depth of penetration. In other words, if we had taken the values that

5 you're suggesting, we would have achieved even smaller craters, lower

6 values in respect of the fuse effect.

7 Say it's half a millisecond, then you will see how much the depth

8 of penetration is lessened by that. That would be 0.5 thousandths of a

9 second you will get much lower depth of penetration a much shallower

10 crater when a shell explodes. In other words, we used less favorable

11 values.

12 Q. I'm simply asking you that your fuse activation time is a

13 millisecond and that is based on Krsic's research.

14 A. It's not just that. We carried out a large number of experiments.

15 We examined, analysed fuses, we have x-ray, we have a lab for ballistic

16 examinations and analysis. If you -- if I had known that you needed such

17 photographs, I would have brought photographs and x-rays of shells that we

18 had done as well as of fuses.

19 Q. I'm speaking of fuse speeds, fuse speeds. Listen to me carefully

20 it's very important. Listen to me. Listen to me, Professor, please.

21 A. What do you mean by fuse speed? [In English] Reaction time of --

22 yes.

23 Q. The speed of one millisecond you use in your calculations to

24 formulate tables 7 and 8 at page 21 of your report?

25 A. Yes, one millisecond.

Page 20403

1 Q. And when you use one millisecond, your results are that a 120

2 millimetre mortar at a relatively low-impact velocity of 121 metres per

3 second would penetrate the ground to the extent of .63 metres before it

4 explodes. Do you see that?

5 A. 7 centimetres, 7 centimetres it would penetrate 7 centimetres.

6 The depth of penetration would be 7 centimetres. Under the angle of 47.3

7 degrees, it would be the impact velocity 121 metres per second, the depth

8 of penetration without the fuse being activated, without an explosion, it

9 would go 15, with the explosion it would go 10 deep and under the angle,

10 the depth of penetration would be 7 centimetres.

11 Q. Let's go through it a little bit more slowly. Look at table 7.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The third column from the left, what does that column signify?

14 A. These are impact velocities, drop velocity of the projectile, that

15 is, VC metres a second, these are drop velocities for 82 to 120, 122,

16 impact velocity.

17 Q. And the column to the right of that, with TR, that is a fuse

18 speed?

19 A. That's the time of one millisecond.

20 Q. The fuse activation speed?

21 A. Yes. Yes. Time activation speed, reaction time of fuse.

22 Q. The column to the right of that LP, what is that?

23 A. That's the depth, LP, the depth of penetration [In English]

24 Penetration without function of fuse.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one

Page 20404

1 intervention, the transcript of the interpretation, the witness made it

2 very clear, he made his position very clear by distinguishing the reaction

3 and the activation and what's missing, there are two negative reactions in

4 the transcript. We shouldn't confusion the notions. I think it's very

5 important.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it then that we have paid proper

7 attention to that and even someone who reads the French transcript will

8 now read this observation.

9 Please proceed then, Mr. Stamp.


11 Q. You were telling us what the column with IP at the head means?

12 A. Yes, that's the depth of the penetration of the projectile without

13 the functioning of the fuse. If the fuse malfunctions, that would be the

14 depth of the penetration in the surface, in the soil. However, because it

15 encountered resistance, the reaction happened after one millisecond, the

16 realistic trajectory wouldn't be 18 it would be 6 centimetres because the

17 fuse reacted and the projectile penetration then stopped.

18 Q. And --

19 JUDGE ORIE: In order to create no confusion, Mr. Stamp, where you

20 said IP, I particular it that you are referring to LP, I think it's LP if

21 you would look at figure 2.21, you see it's written there with --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's LP.

23 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.

24 Q. So at what point does a fuse activate and the explosion occurs in

25 this table?

Page 20405

1 A. The fuse is activated at the moment -- let's take your example,

2 120 millimetre mortar. 47.3 drop angle, 121 metre per second velocity, it

3 would go without the fuse to the depth of --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear.

5 A. -- But the complete projectile would go 12 centimetres into the

6 soil so that the depth of the penetration is 9 centimetres, the depth of

7 the crater would be 9 centimetres in that case.


9 Q. In other words, the projectile would penetrate the soil to the

10 degree of 9 centimetres and then explode?

11 A. Yes. Yes. It would create that crater, yes.

12 Q. Which is a different type of crater to the one where it explodes

13 on impact on the surface.

14 A. I don't understand, what do you mean that that will be different?

15 Q. A crater --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to

17 avoid confusion, I don't think that certain things were heard well and are

18 not in the transcript because of interpreters and I'm referring to

19 page 62, line 23, what I said was that in the English transcript, there

20 are two negative answers of the witness. It's exactly the opposite

21 negative answers missing [In English] Missing thank you so much.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's 12:30, we'll have a break for 20 minutes.

23 Mr. Stamp, I got the feeling that on your last few questions,

24 there was great misunderstanding between you and the witness. Perhaps you

25 could -- either he didn't understand you well or you didn't understand his

Page 20406

1 answers well, but I got the feeling that there was great misunderstanding.

2 Perhaps you could formulate your questions in such a way that we

3 avoid -- I know that it's witness and those who examine the witness

4 together but let's try to avoid confusion.

5 MR. STAMP: Very well. I would endeavour to articulate my

6 questions with clarity. Thanks.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until ten minutes --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just say

9 something? Yesterday, you gave me a homework to -- if that's possible, to

10 make a drawing of the change of velocity with the height and I did that

11 with a lot of pleasure but with the limitation because I didn't have

12 all the calculations and the right table. What I did is that I made an

13 approximate drawing but if you need it in ten days or so I can send it, a

14 computerised calculation but if you want I -- this can be copied for you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I would certainly have come back to that because I

16 asked you so I -- if you would please give it to madam usher so that it

17 can be copied and I already thank you very much for assisting us also in

18 this respect.

19 We'll adjourn until ten minutes to 1.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 12:36 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, could you please escort the witness into

23 the courtroom.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Vilicic, these are long days but we have to

Page 20407

1 continue.

2 Mr. Stamp.

3 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Witness -- I'm sorry, Professor?

5 A. [In English] No problem.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that the resistance to penetration of a

7 fir board is lower than the resistance to penetration of concrete?

8 A. [Interpretation] Yes. Can I explain? A board, a fir board is

9 used when developing a fuse. It's the minimum resistance provided that a

10 fuse should react if the projectile goes through the board and the fuse

11 isn't activated then that means that the fuse isn't functioning properly

12 and those sort of fuses are rejected but this is something that we use in

13 the course of developing new fuses. This has nothing to do with -- it

14 hasn't direct [Realtime transcript read in error "has indirect"] relation

15 with subsequent events. It's a matter of changing the time of reaction,

16 the fuse reaction time. It's a one-inch fir board.

17 Q. 24.5 millimetres fir board?

18 A. Yes, one saw, one inch.

19 Q. Let me see if I understand what you just explained. In the tests

20 for the fuse sensitivity, it would have to explode, detonate the mortar

21 before it passes through the fir board, that's how it is tested.

22 A. No, sorry. That's the minimum pre-condition for fuse to be sure.

23 When it hits such a board it mustn't react at the time and this is only

24 checked when you are deciding whether to adopt a certain fuse to

25 use -- accept certain fuses.

Page 20408

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Professor, Professor, please. Have a look on

2 page 65, line 9, it says, "This has nothing to do with -- it has indirect

3 relation." I think the translation was: "It hasn't direct relation".

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it doesn't have a relation.

5 The characteristic of the security of the fuse.



8 Q. The purpose of the test is to ensure that the fuse is surely

9 activated before it passes through that fir board, if I understand you

10 correctly?

11 A. No, the purpose of this test is that at a certain distance from

12 the barrel muzzle, the projectile mustn't react when hitting the board.

13 This confirms that it is functioning properly so that it should not

14 explode, the shell should not explode in the barrel, et cetera. You asked

15 me whether the resistance of the board was greater or equal to that of

16 concrete and that's why I said that the two things had nothing to do with

17 each other. A fir board is its resistance to the action of fragments, a

18 one-inch fir board is used to test how many fragments can penetrate it and

19 if a one-inch fir board is penetrated by these fragments then one

20 concludes that the resistance is of a certain kind.

21 Q. I'll read part of your report and ask you to explain what it

22 means. "In modern impact percussion fuses of a superquick action,

23 sensitivity is defined as target resistance that will surely activate the

24 fuse,"?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stamp please slow down.

Page 20409

1 JUDGE ORIE: You are reading, Mr. Stamp and I think we'd like to

2 have the page reference.

3 MR. STAMP: Page 18, I beg your pardon. Page 18, line 7.

4 Q. "In modern impact percussion fuses of superquick action,

5 sensitivity is defined as target resistance that will surely activate the

6 fuse. Usually it is a fir board 25 millimetres thick." What does that

7 mean?

8 A. This is a manner of testing how sensitive the fuse is. The board

9 corresponds to the energy that is needed to activate the fuse.

10 Q. In other words, the fuse, if I may put it that way, successfully

11 passes the test of being a superquick or a fuse of superquick action if it

12 surely activates before passing through that fir board?

13 A. Yes. If it is activated when coming into contact with the board,

14 yes, but there are two concepts that we must distinguish. One is testing

15 the safety of the fuse to ensure that it is safe when in the barrel and

16 the second function is on a board in front of the muzzle six, seven, eight

17 metres, it mustn't be activated and afterwards, after that it has to react

18 when it comes into contact with the one-inch board so that from moment in

19 time it means that the mechanisms are functioning, they were active so

20 that the next time a superquick fuse hits a board it has to react. At a

21 distance of 8 metres it has to pass through such a board and at a distance

22 of 15 metres, it has to be activated, the fuse has to explode.

23 Q. Before it passes through the board?

24 A. Yes, yes. When it comes into contact with the board, it

25 penetrates the screen in any event but ...

Page 20410

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Back to your tables at page

2 21 and that is table 8. You will see in the rows for the mortar shell of

3 120 millimetre that your calculation of depth or depth up to the point of

4 explosion which is in the right column, the furthest right column indicate

5 penetration depths all of which are greater than the 2.45 millimetres for

6 the fir board test.

7 A. Well, table 8 has nothing to do with fir boards, this has to do

8 with concrete. It's the depth of craters when the surface is a concrete

9 one. You have to make a distinction between the sensitivity, that is the

10 time at which something is activated and the time when this happens. When

11 hitting this board, one hasn't defined where the projectile was when the

12 explosion occurred. All that was requested, all that was requested was

13 that it should be activated. These two things cannot be related to each

14 other, cannot be linked up.

15 Q. What does column -- the right-hand column in table 8, the furthest

16 right column in table 8 speak to?

17 A. It indicates the -- let's say the altitude of the depth of

18 penetration, the distance from the lowest point, the distance of the

19 lowest point from the surface since the projectile entered at a given

20 angle and this first example, it's 46.5 degrees, that's the drop angle so

21 for a trajectory of 10 centimetres, when you divide the altitude with the

22 drop angle with the sinus, you get the altitude, go back to the image you

23 asked me about, figure 2.21.

24 Q. Is this column to the right, furthest right of table 8 indicating

25 the penetration depth in concrete before the fuse activates and the

Page 20411

1 projectile explodes?

2 A. No, that's the total penetration depth, the elevation H. H is the

3 total number of -- in metres of the depth of penetration when the fuse was

4 activated because H is calculated LPR through sine, LPR and the sine of

5 this factor you can see that H through LP, LPR is the sine of the drop

6 angle that is this Delta C.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think

9 that the attitude of the Prosecution which seeks to affirm something

10 different from what we can see quite clearly in the expert report, I don't

11 think this attitude is acceptable. One can cross-examine is fine but to

12 simply claim the opposite in our opinion this is not acceptable.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I have the feeling that there's some misunderstanding

14 as to the table, the understanding of the table, Mr. Stamp. May I try.

15 Do I understand you well that that the last column on page 21,

16 table 7 indicates the depth of the hole that is caused by a mortar shell

17 landing and exploding and has got nothing to do which whatever is left in

18 the soil but just the depth of the hole created by the explosion.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's what we see on several pictures we see apart

21 from markings of several fragments we see in the centre just a small hole

22 and this is the depth of the hole once the projectile has landed and has

23 exploded irrespective of whatever could be still found, has got nothing to

24 do with that, whether later a tail fin or the fuse would, I take it that

25 the fuse would be destroyed also but --

Page 20412

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Is that clear -- is that clarifying anything,

3 Mr. Stamp?

4 MR. STAMP: Yes, to some degree, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I hope it did. Please proceed.


7 Q. Do your tables here in respect to the 120 millimetre mortar shell

8 here in this column indicate the depth of penetration before the fuse is

9 activated?

10 A. No, they don't. LP, the LP column corresponds to the depth of

11 penetration of the projectile if the fuse fails to activate, if the fuse

12 doesn't function properly. [In English] Longer of penetration, not depth,

13 longer of penetration, LP, highest depth of penetration, longer of

14 penetration.

15 Q. And LPR, that column, what is that column showing?

16 A. [Interpretation] Given the time reaction of the fuse, it indicates

17 that if the fuse is functioning, the projectile will, for example in the

18 column instead of penetrating on the ground 15 centimetres it will

19 penetrate to a depth of 10 centimetres because it will explode

20 at -- after having covered 10 centimetres and that will be the depth so

21 that is the trajectory of the projectile up until the time in which it

22 explodes.

23 Q. So --

24 A. So if the depth of penetration is smaller when the fuse is

25 activated than when the projectile penetrates the ground without the fuse

Page 20413

1 being activated so the depth of penetration is not as great as when the

2 fuse is activated.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction, when the fuse

4 fails to function properly.


6 Q. So LPR tells you the depth that the projectile will travel until

7 the fuse is activated?

8 A. [In English] It's not depth, it's --

9 Q. Or the measurement of penetration then that the projectile will

10 travel before?

11 A. It's longer of penetration, longer of penetration.

12 Q. Length?

13 A. Longer of penetration. Depth of penetration is H.

14 Q. I see.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, Dr. Vilicic, I have to correct myself

16 first because everyone correctly says Professor Vilicic. I should have

17 done that during the last two days as well.

18 THE WITNESS: No problem.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's because of the name. Professor Vilicic,

20 could you please, on a piece of paper, just draw what LPR is because I

21 have no difficulty understanding H, no difficulty in understanding LP, but

22 LPR is still ...

23 If you could do it on the ELMO, we could follow you, so if it's

24 not too inconvenient.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the surface, ground surface.

Page 20414

1 The projectile falls at an angle theta C, from this point in time it

2 starts penetrating the ground. If the fuse is not activated, let's assume

3 that the projectile reaches this point and this is the length, the LP

4 length. It depends on the resistance and characteristics of the ground.

5 If, as is usual, the fuse is activated, the fuse will be activated after

6 one millisecond. If it is activated after an even shorter period of time

7 then the depth will be even smaller. Let's say this is when the fuse

8 exploded. This length represents the length of the penetration, LPR, this

9 is where the explosion occurred, and this is the real depth of the crater

10 so this is the point that the projectile reached if the fuse activated.

11 If it failed to activate then it would have penetrated to this point.

12 LPR, this value is given in the formula on page 19 and you can see

13 it's -- the drop velocity, the time of reaction of the fuse, so it's VCTR

14 through 4 LP, one minus VCTR to 4 LP if this is reduced then the LP, if

15 the LP is reduced you can see what the calculation is, the impact

16 velocity, this is VC.

17 If in this equation you reduce TR, then the value for LPR is also

18 reduced. In other words, if we had taken a long period of time, well, in

19 fact we took a less favorable case when analysing the penetration than

20 would have been the case with the superquick modern fuse which would have

21 been activated after 5 milliseconds.

22 JUDGE ORIE: What you tell us as a matter of fact --

23 A. After half a millisecond.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- Which each is I would say the projection, the

25 length of the projection upwards to the surface of LPR.

Page 20415

1 THE WITNESS: Vertical.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The vertical distance.

3 THE WITNESS: Vertical distance.

4 JUDGE ORIE: To the surface whereas LPR is the real distance as

5 the fuse has travelled before exploding and what is --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Projectile, projectile. I'm sorry.

7 [In English] Before explosion.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Before explosion.


10 JUDGE ORIE: And what is confusing a little bit is that LP on your

11 sketch is relatively short where it is approximately 6 to -- 6 times

12 longer than LPR usually according to your -- according to your table or at

13 least a couple of times it's only a little bit longer on your sketch.

14 Mr. Stamp, is it clear to you now what LPR is?

15 MR. STAMP: Yes, very clear. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. And may I ask you one

17 additional question because I take it that it's all about that, the

18 quicker the fuse activates upon reaching the soil, the smaller the value

19 of LPR and therefore also of H will be; is that correct?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's correct, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.


23 Q. I have it that you said: "If in this occasion you reduce TR then

24 the value for LPR is also reduced. In other words if we had taken a long

25 period of time well in fact we took a less favorable case when analysing

Page 20416

1 the penetration than would have been the case with superquick modern

2 fuses which would have been activated after 5 milliseconds."

3 A. Yes, yes, clear. The shorter the time, the less penetration there

4 is.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is a

6 problem of interpretation or reading. It's 0.5 milliseconds not 5

7 milliseconds as the Prosecution states now.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, we are talking about one millisecond or

9 half a millisecond which is --

10 MR. STAMP: That is why I reread the transcript to him to correct

11 it.

12 THE WITNESS: Half a millisecond.


14 Q. In other words the superquick fuses reaction time are faster than

15 the times in these tables. The superquick fuses -- you nodded, could you

16 answer verbally? The superquick fuses reaction times are faster than the

17 ones used for these tables; is that correct?

18 A. Superquick fuses, yes, but they have a completely different

19 structure to these fuses. They are completely different fuses, not these

20 fuses we are talking about here, these are mechanical fuses that are

21 installed on the projectiles but the superquick fuses are used for

22 projectiles and they are electrical fuses. On Yugoslav shells you don't

23 have such fuses. On shells, mortar shells of such manufacture there is no

24 such fuses there are other fuses that can be activated during the

25 trajectory but this is -- there are not such fuses used.

Page 20417

1 Q. I know. When you say superquick fuses being one of the things is

2 that can be used for the 80 millimetre and 120 millimetre mortar round,

3 are you referring to a fuse that impacts on contact, that is, on contact

4 with a surface without penetration?

5 A. As we explained it in our expert report, it depends on the surface

6 resistance. For the fuse to become activated for normal fuses, you need

7 the certain amount of energy to be created to have the fuse becoming

8 activated. In superquick fuses, the thing is also there has to be a

9 contact with the surface but on mortar shells there are no such fuses.

10 These are mostly the fuses that are on anti-tank projectiles, anti-tank

11 projectiles.

12 Q. I suggest to you that the superquick fuses which you refer to at

13 page 18 which will surely activate before they penetrate a 25 millimetre

14 board are fuses that were used by the JNA in the former Yugoslavia.

15 A. Our official name for our fuse is ultra instant fuse which is

16 UTM62. It's a quick fuse but it's not the most modern fuse. You spoke of

17 superquick fuses. You commented on Krsic's data but our fuses are the

18 ones that are relevant for those norms and that was the criteria for us

19 for a superquick fuse. That was our criteria.

20 Q. I suggest to you that the Yugoslav superquick fuse which must

21 surely activate before it penetrates a 25 millimetre fir board activates

22 at a much faster speed than one millisecond.

23 A. That's very good if that's so, then all our calculations will have

24 lesser depth of penetration instead of these values, you have lower

25 values. The H and the LPR will be lower. I said that we used one

Page 20418

1 millisecond and we could have reduced that if we had wanted it. If we had

2 said that we had the most modern fuses but we know that our series of

3 manufacture of fuses particularly old ammunition, they worked for one

4 millisecond.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Professor Vilicic, may I ask you one question just in

6 between? You said, "That's very good if that's so," good for what, good

7 for whom? Would you explain what you meant by saying, "That's very good,"

8 if that was so?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman said that the lower

10 time for the -- the functioning time is less than one milliseconds, 0.5

11 milliseconds now if we take 0.5 milliseconds then there would be less

12 depth of penetration so the results would be even more favorable from the

13 aspect they would be more favorable for -- when I mean favorable, let me

14 just explain. What I mean by favorable is that you will have lower values

15 so there will be less depth of penetration, everything will be lower in

16 that sense it will be more favorable.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, why would that be good or bad? I mean why are

18 lower values any better than higher values?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there would be less depth of

20 penetration automatically. That would mean there would be just shallower.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Why -- let me just ask you what -- why is less

22 penetration better than more penetration?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the point of view of the

24 effectiveness of a projectile, it is greater if the projectile, for

25 troops, if it explodes on the surface so if it is instant explosion when

Page 20419

1 it touches, impacts on the surface, that's better. The effectiveness of

2 projectile is better when it penetrates you have less depth of penetration

3 because the higher depth of penetration, the less is the projectile

4 effective but ...

5 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer to my question is that is good for the

6 effectiveness of the shell landing.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 Please proceed.


11 Q. In other words, Professor, your table 7 and table 8 --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- On page 21 do not apply, the fuses that detonate on impact?

14 A. What do you mean "do not apply"? Because they apply as soon as

15 there is one millisecond, these are calculations for the assumption that

16 the time functioning of the projectile is one millisecond and these values

17 apply for that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Also, in order to avoid confusion, what you are

19 telling us that if you change TR in your tables, that the other columns

20 will give different values.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What will change will be the LPR and

22 H, they will be smaller. They will be lower values if TR is lower.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


25 Q. I further suggest to you that, as you have said, a mortar round is

Page 20420

1 more effective for persons -- well, effective against persons in the open

2 when it explodes on impact and that was the normal fuse setting in the JNA

3 and in Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, impact.

4 A. I don't understand this question. I don't know what you meant.

5 Q. Very well. When a fuse -- when a mortar projectile detonates on

6 impact, it is more effective against troops in the open and that is why

7 you said it was good?

8 A. If it penetrates to a lesser degree, yes, the depth of

9 penetration, the length of penetration reduces the effectiveness of the

10 projectile but, I'm sorry, but I have an impression that you are confusing

11 something. The table 7 and 8 are to do with craters with the length of

12 penetration. These lengths, these depths are not related with the

13 effectiveness of the projectile. These are the values for the length of

14 penetration. They would be lower --

15 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that there were impact fuses in use

16 by the JNA in the early 1990s and by impact fuses, I mean fuses that

17 exploded on contact with the ground.

18 A. No, no one's contesting that.

19 Q. Very well. And these are the superquick fuses that, in your

20 report, at page 3 and 5 you say are applicable to mortars?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, there seems to be a great confusion and

22 I'd like to interfere. If you are talking about detonating upon impact,

23 you are putting this as being exactly the same as superquick detonation,

24 et cetera, et cetera. We have heard a lot of evidence which means the

25 distinction between detonation on impact and for example delayed

Page 20421

1 detonation so therefore I would put the following question to you,

2 Professor Vilicic, when we are talking about fuses with a TR time of half

3 a millisecond or one millisecond or a little bit higher or a little bit

4 lower, would you still call all these fuses fuses used for detonation upon

5 impact?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are fuses that are used,

7 UTU-M62 or UTU-M78, these are impact instantaneous fuses, that's what we

8 call them, they are superquick, that's how it was translated into English.

9 Ultra instant fuses. They can be ultra quick and with a time delay so

10 they have a double action, that's what we call them, that would be the

11 ultra instantaneous or if the relevant tap is turned on the fuse then this

12 is done for a purpose, for the shell to penetrate more deeply into the

13 soil, and that function of the fuse is used on 120 mortar shell fuses when

14 we want to have -- to destroy something, this is not used for troops, this

15 is used when we want to dig in.

16 JUDGE ORIE: But you would still talk about detonation upon impact

17 if you would use any of the fuses you just mentioned.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Both fuses have this instant,

19 instantaneous function.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] English transcript, previous

22 page line 15 so that the methods are clear, the witness said in the first

23 part of the answer the opposite of what appears in the transcript.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What the witness said at line 15, as a matter of

25 fact, I did not only listen to the translation but I also looked at the

Page 20422

1 witness when he said that, it should be checked in the original tape

2 before it could be accepted that he said something different and perhaps

3 that should be done if you claim that it's wrongly translated.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm simply talking about the

5 first word, the rest of the reply it can be deduced, the rest of the

6 answer is correct that he said that no one contested or something like

7 that but the first part.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I understood: "No, no one's contesting that." That

9 is that -- but if you say that the answer is that no one contests that

10 then let's forget about the first no because that --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: It was "yes, no one contest".

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's then clear. I think everyone understood it in

13 that sense.

14 No, Mr. Stamp, I am looking at the clock but if you --


16 Q. My suggestion is that when using fuses that detonate the mortar

17 projectile on impact without penetration, the fuse time is much faster

18 than those that you have used in this table.

19 A. What's the problem?

20 Q. Do you agree with that?

21 A. It could be a shorter time.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President for

23 the simple reason that the witness just gave us a technical information on

24 the changeable character of such a fuse; therefore, we cannot ask a

25 general question.

Page 20423

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you could ask a question because there's one

2 value used in the table so therefore, if there is a variety of possible

3 fuses and if you use one in a table you can ask a question about the

4 table.

5 Let me just ask you, Professor Vilicic, what Mr. Stamp wants to

6 know from you is whether the 1.0, the one millisecond you used in table 7

7 and table 8, that that is not the time which would be valid for the

8 quicker or the quickest fuses used in the former JNA and that was used in

9 mortars used during the conflict.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the time that we officially

11 used. This value is our value. This is a time constant which was used

12 for ultra-instantaneous fuse function.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask you the following: Are there any quicker

14 fuses -- were there any quicker fuses used during the conflict, the armed

15 conflict?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, this fuse

17 function, this time for functioning time is measured when the new fuse is

18 adopted, when it is created, when it is established, and we had that at

19 the institute and our mean value for that was one millisecond. I don't

20 know that in --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- the question is quite simple. Were

22 there any fuses used in mortar projectiles that had a quicker TR than the

23 one you used in this table?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For mortar shells, this is the

25 functioning time of the fuse that were manufactured in the former

Page 20424

1 Yugoslavia and with which the mortar projectiles manufactured in

2 Yugoslavia were equipped with and I am surprising where this data comes

3 from because this is what we did at the institute. Where does this data

4 come from that Yugoslavia had some other quicker fuses than these ones?

5 JUDGE ORIE: So, Professor Vilicic is no, there was no quicker

6 fuses used than the one with TR of one millisecond.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That is your answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just say

10 something, mechanical fuses, this has to be said, because there are also

11 electrical fuses but not for mortar projectiles, the mechanical fuses for

12 Yugoslav projectiles for mortar shells had this functioning time of one

13 millisecond.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there are no quicker ones as you told us used in

15 mortar bombs.

16 The original of your homework may be returned to you but I would

17 have one additional question. Could this, and it's available for the

18 parties as well, could this be put on the ELMO just for one second?

19 Professor Vilicic, I tried to set out a bit clearer what I asked

20 you to do. I might have been not very clear so therefore I thought it

21 better to write it down. You understand what is on this drawing? Your

22 answers --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, completely.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- Yes as they appear in the homework product you

25 gave to us uses an increase of Y, you have increased Y with 500 metres and

Page 20425

1 then you have answered the question of the velocity. Yes?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a heightened velocity if

3 the weapon is 500 metres higher.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that there is a relation between the

5 two but I would like to have the difference in velocity expressed as a

6 function of X rather than a function of Y because you said with an extra

7 500 metres Y you get this velocity and what I would like to know is with a

8 100 metres or 200 metres or 300 metres higher point of -- I know that they

9 are related, but we, as lawyers, are not smart enough to translate what

10 you gave us into the values we need.

11 So if you could do the homework again, but not by referring to an

12 extra trajectory Y but by extra trajectory X. Would that be possible or

13 minor ...

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would request, I said that before

15 and I would like to say that the equipment that I have doesn't allow me to

16 do this at the moment because I only have a calculator, I don't have a

17 computer to calculate the trajectory. If you need precise values, this

18 can be done and then it can be forwarded through the Defence to the Trial

19 Chamber. Here, on the table that I gave you, it will be possible to

20 provide for each charge that would be a function Y of the drop velocity

21 and dependent on the curve change, I extrapolated the curve and you've

22 asked me for 500 metres. I made it for 500 metres negatively so that the

23 weapon is higher than the target but if the weapon is below the target

24 then this curve will go instead of right it will go to the left 500 metres

25 and this is how you will get that velocity value.

Page 20426

1 I don't have the original here to show on the ELMO.

2 JUDGE ORIE: To be -- I understood your homework to be that you

3 added 500 metres to the longitudinal trajectory and what I would like to

4 have and I know that the values are related, I would very much like to

5 have the difference in velocity when the level of impact would be higher

6 that of course also would shorten the Y.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we are misunderstanding each

8 other. This is Y, meaning 500 metres of altitude, not longitudinal, not a

9 trajectory, it's a vertically 500 metres vertical.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then you did exactly what I asked you and at least

11 the confusion has now been stopped.

12 Yes, Professor Vilicic, as you might have noticed we have not

13 finished yet, we will try to finish your testimony tomorrow and we'll

14 adjourn until then, until 9.00 in the morning, same courtroom.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

16 at 1.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday

17 the 28th day of February, 2003, at

18 9.00 a.m.