Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21250

1 Thursday, 13 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: There's a matter I'd seek to raise in the absence of

13 the witness in relation to this witness. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: In relation to this witness.

15 Then General Radinovic, I'm sorry, but I have to ask you again to

16 leave the courtroom.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: And the Chamber appreciates your patience.

19 Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could go into

21 private session briefly.

22 [Private session]

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17 [Open session]

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are in open session again. Please proceed.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Being the last day in all

21 likelihood of the Defence case, there are some matters of disclosure in

22 relation to rebuttal that I must attend to out of court. I'd be grateful

23 for an indication as to when I might revisit the issue of the fifth

24 videotape in relation to the evidence of Richard Gray.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that we'll not spend much time any more on

Page 21254

1 General Radinovic, and perhaps we could deal with it then right

2 afterwards. That would be my suggestion.

3 Yes. General Radinovic, good morning.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And yesterday I reminded you, and I'm doing the same

6 again today, reminding you that you are still bound by the solemn

7 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony. We were

8 about to hear what questions Judge El Mahdi would have for you.

9 WITNESS: RADOVAN RADINOVIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 [Interpretation] General, I would like to ask you two or three

14 questions. The first of them in a way picks up on a question that was

15 asked of you by Honourable Judge Nieto-Navia. It concerns the

16 relationship between the JNA and the forces of Republika Srpska. I would

17 like to take you back to your report, paragraph 2. Do you have your copy?

18 Yes, please.

19 If you can follow me, in the English version it's paragraph 2.

20 It's probably the same in your language. I'm quoting in English: [In

21 English] "The former Yugoslavia conducted in the period 1991-1995" - et je

22 voudrais precise en fait les dates que vous avez vous-meme mentionnees -

23 "Was an internal thus, a civil war and not an international conflict."

24 [Interpretation] You added, and I quote: [In English] "Conducted within

25 one international recognised nation-state. In this war, the forces

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Page 21256

1 involved in the conflict were the forces of one and the same nation-state

2 and of its army JNA against the forces and movement of secessions."

3 [Interpretation] End of quote.

4 I would like now to refer you to your conclusions, number 7, which

5 is on page 175, also in the English version, where you mention, and I

6 quote: [In English]" -- Yugoslavia continued to support and aid VRS in an

7 expression of national solidarity which could have been done by any army

8 in the world but none of the forms of this assistance was violating the

9 principle of non-interference of Yugoslavia in this internal conflict in

10 BiH." [Interpretation] End of quote.

11 You answered yesterday in response to a question by

12 Judge Nieto-Navia that the only link between the two armies, if I can call

13 them like that, is that the Yugoslav Federation paid out pensions to the

14 families of the fighting men of the Republika Srpska army. My first

15 question would be this: You, as a military man, do you believe that the

16 nature of the conflict has an impact on the applicable law in the context

17 of the accusations -- of the charges levelled against General Galic, in

18 terms of military terms? The acts allegedly committed by General Galic,

19 would they be of a different nature, depending on how we qualify the

20 conflict? What is your position on this?

21 A. First of all, Your Honour, in the second paragraph of my report

22 you quoted the English version, and unfortunately it was not translated

23 well. You said the war was waged with one internationally recognised

24 state, whereas I wrote it was waged within one international recognised

25 state. Forces within that state were fighting each other, whereas you

Page 21257

1 read out the translation as reading that war was waged with one

2 internationally recognised state. That's not what I wrote. In my view,

3 the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina is an internal war waged between forces

4 between that state. Three ethnic communities had a conflict within their

5 ethnic rights, depending on their different perceptions.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Allow me. My question is

7 two-pronged. First of all, in military terms, the laws of war, the laws

8 of warfare, in the context of the charges levelled against General Galic -

9 I'm not speaking in general terms. I'm speaking about this

10 context - would the rules of armed conflict change depending on how you

11 qualify this conflict, as an international conflict or a national

12 conflict? And is this why you specified in your report - and this is my

13 second question - how were you able to arrive at this conclusion that you

14 stated in your report?

15 A. First of all, the first part of your question, would the nature of

16 the war affect the application of the law on warfare?

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, the applicable rules. You

18 as a military man, you are surely aware of rules that apply to an

19 international conflict, as opposed to a national conflict. Do you, as a

20 military expert, believe that the rules and provisions that apply would

21 change depending on the nature of the conflict; yes or no?

22 A. First of all, I am not a legal expert, but I know the demands and

23 requirements of international law.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You as a general.

25 A. Yes, I am aware of that. I know that. The nature of the war that

Page 21258

1 was waged in Bosnia and Herzegovina indisputably affects also the nature

2 of responsibility and liability of everyone in that war, including

3 General Galic, precisely because the rules of international law that apply

4 to every conflict, including this one, acquire a different meaning versus

5 a regular war, where you know exactly where the front lines are, where the

6 troops are, where the civilians are.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So my second question, if you

8 allow me: What was your basis for the conclusion that this particular

9 conflict was a national one?

10 A. I relied, first of all, on the relevant documents, on books

11 written by people whom I held in high esteem as people knowledgeable about

12 military matters, and on my knowledge gained over several decades about

13 war as the subject of military science. If we talk about this war in

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina, it happened within Bosnia and Herzegovina as a

15 state. Of course it started before.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you give me a couple of

17 references, perhaps, of the material you relied upon.

18 A. For instance, General Rose wrote in his book that the war in

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina was a civil war. You must believe me when I say

20 that I have great respect for what General Rose has done.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Did you read General Rose's book

22 in English?

23 A. I read the Serbian translation, and the Defence team has the book

24 in English, in both languages, in fact.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you as a military expert, do

Page 21259

1 you believe that the conclusions and the interpretations of events stated

2 by General Rose reflect the real situation, are a genuine reflection of

3 reality? Has this been proven in your view in this work, and do you

4 believe in his impartiality?

5 A. First let me finish what -- about what I have read about this war

6 and its nature. So I read the book by Pierre-Marie Gallois, one of the

7 most prominent military theoreticians. The book's title --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the title.

9 A. I didn't mention it here but I mentioned it in other cases

10 testifying before this Tribunal. He wrote in detail about the nature of

11 the war, and he concluded in no uncertain terms that it was a civil war.

12 Professor Gavro Perazic, professor of military law in Podgorica, a

13 retired colonel who used to be a professor at the military academy of

14 military law also wrote a book where he very clearly emphasised that it

15 was an internal war.

16 Professor Smiga Avramov wrote a book entitled, "the Anti-heroic

17 War of the West against Yugoslavia," wrote that it was an internal war

18 within Yugoslavia with all the attributes of religious wars which are the

19 bloodiest of all.

20 From the beginning of the war to date, many scientific gatherings

21 have been held in Yugoslavia discussing the subject of war in the

22 territory of Yugoslavia, and these seminars and meetings concluded that it

23 was a civil war. Based on all the material that I have studied, I have

24 absolutely no reason not to accept this conclusion because my own findings

25 from my own research and studies about this war are identical because the

Page 21260

1 citizens of one state, Bosnia and Herzegovina, were involved, namely there

2 are three ethnic communities each of which in their own way perceived

3 their own rights within that state. When Yugoslavia was broken up, all

4 these three ethnic communities clashed over their rights. With the

5 intervention of the International Community, which was not efficient,

6 which tried to impose peace but failed, and instead let this internal

7 conflict happen. Each of these ethnic communities had their own army,

8 their strategy, their doctrine, and within the framework of those

9 doctrines they waged this war. We can analyse this very broadly and at

10 length, but in essence this is an internal civil war.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, General. But will you

12 please look at paragraph 7 --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies, but the

14 interpreters, as the transcript says, missed the title of one of the books

15 that were used by this expert. It's a book by Pierre-Marie Gallois. Would

16 you please find out from the witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you're referring to General Radinovic

18 rather than General Galic.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Yes. [Interpretation] Yes. It's the end of

20 the trial. Yes, in fact. I apologise.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you please have a look at

22 paragraph 7 of your conclusions, where you say: [In English] "The Army of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina continued to support and aid --"

24 A. Let me just find that place.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: " -- VRS in an expression of national solidarity."

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1 [Interpretation] Are you following me, General?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] What did you mean exactly when

4 you said -- when you wrote that there was continuous support, that there

5 was continued support and aid from the Yugoslavia army, that is to say,

6 from the Federal army for the VRS in an expression of national solidarity?

7 Could you elaborate on that? What did you mean when you wrote this?

8 A. Your Honour, I meant what is stated here. There is no doubt as to

9 the meaning of this. The Army of Republika Srpska is the army of part of

10 the Serbian people. The Army of Yugoslavia was the army of the Serbian

11 people living in Serbia and Montenegro.

12 As far as national identity is concerned, these two armies are

13 absolutely identical. It assisted the Army of Republika Srpska in all

14 legitimate respects, with regard to everything that was legitimate. It

15 made efforts to attain just objectives, objectives not forbidden by

16 international agreements and conventions.

17 The Army of Yugoslavia did not prevent officers and

18 non-commissioned officers from its composition who were born in Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina or in Republika Srpska. They didn't prevent them from leaving

20 the Army of Yugoslavia and from fighting, because that was the patriotic

21 duty of every officer. Every officer has to be ready to defend his people

22 if they are threatened. So I'm not arguing for or against that war, but

23 it's a well-known fact that that people was involved in a war and every

24 officer, a non-commissioned officer had the patriotic duty of

25 participating in that war. The Army of Yugoslavia considered that every

Page 21263

1 honourable officer had the duty of going to fight for his people.

2 Furthermore, the Army of Yugoslavia took care in material and

3 social terms of officers, that is to say, of their families who remained

4 in Yugoslavia, and thus made -- didn't distinguish between the families of

5 officers and non-commissioned officers who remained within Yugoslavia.

6 Furthermore, the Army of Yugoslavia educated high-ranking officials of the

7 Army of Republika Srpska for the functions that were necessary. The Army

8 of Yugoslavia helped certain special industries to be reanimated in Bosnia

9 and Herzegovina through which this army could be supplied. The Army of

10 Yugoslavia helped within the framework of the entire state programme for

11 humanitarian aid. And furthermore, the Army of Yugoslavia, in terms of

12 doctrine, provided support, informed of all the rules and instructions

13 that were necessary for the organisation of that army. So in other words,

14 it did everything that a friendly country would do. Our country did this,

15 or rather, our army. So this is the form of assistance that I was

16 thinking of.

17 I also know that material was obtained, purchases were made. I

18 don't know whether this was cash or whether there were some sort of other

19 arrangements, but purchases were made, certain material resources were

20 purchased in order to supply that army. For example, certain spare parts,

21 parts for servicing equipment, repairing equipment that was a bit worn

22 out, et cetera. And there were certain assemblies too.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll move on to

24 another subject. It's paragraph 36 in your conclusions. And you conclude

25 that Sarajevo was not a city either under siege or a city that had been

Page 21264

1 subject to a blockade. Are you following me?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Having affirmed that - and I

4 quote - "[In English] -- Under siege or a city under blockade," - vous

5 avez dit - "blockade pertained to the Muslim part or more precisely to the

6 part under Muslim control. Blockade referred to the Muslim army."

7 [Interpretation] My first question is: You used the definition or,

8 rather, the definitions of siege and blockade. Are you using these

9 definitions or is this a military definition that could be quite different

10 from the legal definition of the terms "siege" and "blockade", because you

11 mentioned a siege and a blockade, and in the first part of the paragraph

12 you said that Sarajevo was neither under siege or under blockade.

13 A. Yes. First of all, I was referring to the terms used in the

14 indictment. In the indictment they mention the terms "siege" and

15 "blockade." And in the explanation of this conclusion, I was thinking of

16 what a blockade meant in military terms, what the term "blockade" meant in

17 military terms, not in legal terms, because I'm not a lawyer so I'm not in

18 a position to know what meaning this might contain, legally speaking. But

19 the term "blockade" in military doctrine is used for military action

20 around cities, around settled, inhabited places. These are very delicate

21 combat operations, military operation, because cities are the most

22 resistent points, the toughest points when it's a matter of conquering

23 them militarily. And the doctrine that prevailed, that was part of the

24 doctrine of the JNA, which is a doctrine that was adopted by all three

25 sides in the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina, states that cities should

Page 21265

1 not be conquered but that cities should be blocked. They shouldn't be

2 taken over; they should be blocked. And a blockade imposed on a city,

3 according to military doctrine, the military doctrine that I'm referring

4 to here and the military doctrine about which I am writing, entails

5 controlling the main roads, the main points, the main features, the

6 entrances to and the exits out of the city for military forces. So it

7 refers to military forces.

8 A city in which military forces are based must be blocked in such

9 a way so as these forces can't leave the city or new forces can't enter

10 the city because this would disrupt the balance of military forces and the

11 side imposing the blockade on the city could find itself in an interior

12 position. So the blockade of Sarajevo - and when I refer to the blockade

13 of Sarajevo, I'm referring to the blockade of the forces of the 1st Corps

14 within Sarajevo, the attempt to prevent them from going to Igman or Ozren

15 and joining up with forces in the direction of Visoko, the direction of

16 Olovo or Igman, because in such a case the war in the Sarajevo theatre

17 would have been a lost cause for the SRK, for the Army of Republika

18 Srpska, and the war in Bosnia would have been a war lost by Republika

19 Srpska. So it was in that sense that I was referring to actions to cause

20 a blockade and not to a blockade in order to suffocate the city.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But my problem is that

22 initially you denied that the city was under siege or that there was a

23 blockade of the city, and then you carried on saying that the blockade was

24 imposed on the part that was under Muslim control, and this is where I

25 understood or misunderstood something. After having denied that the city

Page 21266

1 was under siege or that the city had been -- that there was a blockade of

2 the city, then you said that nevertheless there was a part of the city

3 that had been blockaded. And this is what is causing me certain

4 difficulties. If I understood you correctly, you said that there was a

5 blockade but you are making a distinction between a siege and a blockade

6 by referring to legal notions contained in the terms of siege or blockade.

7 So were you referring to legal notions or exclusively to military notions?

8 Initially you said that Sarajevo was under blockade, or at least the

9 Muslim part was under a blockade.

10 A. Well, there are a few distinctions I would like to make here.

11 First of all, in the second sentence of paragraph 36 of my conclusions it

12 doesn't say that the Muslim part of the city was under blockade but that

13 the blockade pertained to the Muslim army, the BH army. So it refers to

14 the military aspect alone.

15 And secondly, and the previous part of my answer refers to this, I

16 want to say that a blockade as a military action is a legitimate action.

17 From the point of view of military doctrine, it's entirely legitimate as

18 an action. What is important is how it is carried out. A blockade is a

19 legitimate action. What is important in this case is whether all other

20 measures taken are legitimate. So this is a general doctrine that I would

21 like you to take into account when I refer to a blockade here.

22 And now, was Sarajevo in fact under a blockade or were the

23 military forces in Sarajevo under a blockade? I don't think they were.

24 Or in fact, this is not just my opinion. I have documents, and I have

25 referred to these documents, some of them have been shown here, and these

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1 documents clearly show that not even the military forces of the 1st Corps

2 of the BH army in Sarajevo were under blockade. This was not the case.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you're introducing a nuance.

4 You are -- when you say that there was a blockade -- you said that there

5 was a blockade, but now you say that even with respect -- in regard of the

6 military forces, there was no blockade.

7 A. Well, in this conclusion, this follows from the entire report, my

8 entire analysis. But I have just exposed in a few words what was

9 explained. The army of the 1st Corps -- the troops of the 1st Corps of

10 the BH army wasn't under a blockade for the simple fact -- and documents

11 bear this out, and chief of staff of the 1st Corps Nedzad Ajnadzic wrote

12 about this in his book, "The Defence of Sarajevo," I think that's what

13 it's called. He says that the 1st Corps as of May of 1993, from each

14 brigade in Sarajevo would occasionally take a battalion out to Igman and

15 they would be trained there for future combat activity, in order to join

16 up with forces on the outside front, on the external front.

17 Furthermore, there is an entire series of documents from the

18 commander of the 1st Corps, General Karavelic, who testified before this

19 Tribunal. There is a document in which he orders the command of the

20 Dobrinja Brigade to take a battalion to Igman via the airport.

21 General Rose also mentioned the fact that Sarajevo wasn't under blockade.

22 Throughout the war the airport in Sarajevo was open.

23 International delegations would arrive there. There was -- there were a

24 lot of institutions, international institutions and organisations in

25 Sarajevo, humanitarian routes functioned, the blue routes were open. It

Page 21269

1 was possible to leave Sarajevo and it was possible to enter Sarajevo.

2 Naturally, under control because it was war.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I will move on to

4 another subject. Could you please tell me, with regard to the objectives,

5 the targets that you marked on the map -- do you remember the map of the

6 city?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you marked at least 1.500

9 military targets on that map. Do you remember that?

10 A. No, I mentioned 220, but I said that there were -- 1.500 or over

11 1.500 targets every day.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. But my question

13 is: Did these targets exist towards the end of 1992? The number didn't

14 increase, or did it gradually increase with the passage of time? At the

15 end of 1992, how many military objectives were there? Your map and the

16 objectives, the targets that you marked there, do they represent the

17 targets at the end of the war or, rather, at the beginning of the war?

18 Because I'll clarify this: You referred to documents, for example, the

19 date of which was 1993 or 1994. So I suppose - and I think that this is

20 one of the questions that the Prosecution wanted to put to you. I didn't

21 follow your answer, and I would like to know whether the way that these

22 military targets were presented, the ones you referred to on the map, did

23 these targets exist throughout the conflict, from the very beginning of

24 the conflict to the end of the conflict?

25 A. The map I provided and the list of targets with the list of

Page 21270

1 documents should be viewed within the context with reference to the

2 central map where all the brigades of the warring sides in the Sarajevo

3 theatre were marked. And also, with reference to the map in the western

4 part of the front, that map refers to the position of the 102nd Motorised

5 Brigade of the 1st Corps of the BH army. On the big map I presented the

6 front, I represented the front, I represented the way it changed, and I

7 represented the main changes on that front. I mentioned that in 1992 the

8 front changed at Doglodi. At that time General Galic and his corps

9 improved that part of the front, improved the tactical position by taking

10 Otes and in December, but in the second half of December, the 1st Corps

11 took Zuc, Vis, Brijesce Brdo, and right up to Rajlovac and Vogosca and

12 significantly improved their tactical position in that way. Apart from

13 those changes there were no other changes throughout the wartime period.

14 So all the brigades that were in Sarajevo in the second half of 1992

15 remained there until the end of the war. The only thing that changed was

16 their names, and the brigades swelled up, so instead of one there were two

17 zones of responsibility. The number of targets did not change, and not

18 even their location changed. They remained where I marked them. They

19 could have moved to a very insignificant extent because those zones of

20 responsibility of the brigades and these zones were fixed zones throughout

21 the wartime period. They were always present; they were always there.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you for your answer.

23 My last question has to do with the structure of the Republika Srpska

24 army. You make a distinction between the higher ranks who were former

25 officers of the Federation and paramilitary forces that formed the lower

Page 21271

1 ranks. In your opinion, did military discipline reign or did it not

2 reign? Was it in force in the strict sense throughout the wartime period

3 in the Republika Srpska army, and in particular in the Romanija Corps?

4 Was there discipline?

5 A. Well, this question relates to the influence of the character of

6 war and to how international rules regulating war are applied. As far as

7 the top levels of the army are concerned, as far as the main institutions

8 that are part of the command system are concerned --

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I apologise, General, but I'm

10 referring to military discipline above all. Did the chain of command go

11 from the top levels down to the simple soldiers? Was this -- did this

12 function smoothly? But you also mentioned the existence of paramilitary

13 forces. You said that there was quite a bit of -- there was a significant

14 lack of discipline within the corps. And as an expert, would you have

15 judged -- would you have said that this army corps was a disciplined corps

16 that followed military rules?

17 A. Yes, this corps was a disciplined corps. It did respect the

18 discipline that was established by military rules. But there were certain

19 shortcomings, which I mentioned in the documents, and General Galic took

20 efforts, made efforts to deal with resistance that appeared in certain

21 paramilitary units and also to deal with the lack of discipline on the

22 part of certain brigade commanders who were under the direct influence of

23 local politicians, politicians who kept interfering with the system of

24 command.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, General.

Page 21272

1 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I have the following question for you: You have

3 answered questions in relation to strategic important hills around the

4 city. I do not know whether I could follow all the hills you mentioned,

5 but I would like to specifically ask you whether the higher grounds in the

6 north-east and eastern part of the city in the direction of Hresa or

7 Faletici or Mrkovici, were they of any strategic importance?

8 A. Yes. Yes, they were. And in that part, the Sarajevo Romanija

9 Corps had the advantage with regard to the BH army 1st Corps.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Sometimes it's difficult to find the geographic

11 names you mentioned. Could you tell us where in your report you described

12 that in this respect the SRK had an advantage. I see that the matter is

13 dealt with, I would say, in the spatial and geographic determinants.

14 That's, at least, where I try to find it. Could you guide me and tell me

15 where in the paragraphs 77 to 80 you are referring to these SRK positions

16 on higher grounds that gave an advantage.

17 A. Just a minute. Let me find my bearings.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is it Ozren that you are referring to or ...?

19 A. That's part of the Sarajevo area from the Trebevic slopes to Hresa

20 and Ozren. That's the northern part. It's above Mrkovici and Radava.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And there was an advantage to the SRK, where exactly

22 do I find that?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I can be of

24 assistance.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

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Page 21274

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Item 157 after footnote 91. "Only

2 the SRK had the advantage from the part of the front up to Radava."

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that I left this out.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking that.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes I would mention certain villages that are

7 known in my mind, and perhaps you are referring to other villages in the

8 same area. So I'm just trying to compare where I find it. You said in

9 157.

10 A. That is 157, second sentence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you say Zlatiste to Radava, that's the

12 same area I just referred to, that is the same area, that is Hresa and

13 Faletici and Mrkovici.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I just wanted to know.

16 A. Even closer from Kneginjac, to Faletici, across Hresa, to Radava.

17 That is the semi-circle south, south-east, and north-east.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was just trying to compare my points of

19 orientation with yours, and you take different ones but you're referring

20 to the same area.

21 My next question would be: You have told us that you studied many

22 books on the character of the conflict and that you concluded that the

23 character of the conflict was a internal conflict rather than an

24 international conflict, a civil war. Did you study the case law of this

25 Tribunal in this respect as well?

Page 21275

1 A. Yes. Not only with reference to this case but also when I

2 prepared to testify in other cases.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But even in cases where you perhaps did not

4 testify --

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You might have noticed that in some decision

7 the Tribunal concluded that the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether in

8 whole or in part, was an international conflict. I take it that you

9 disagree with those conclusions?

10 A. No. No, I don't agree with that conclusion. And I have offered

11 my arguments against it.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it on the basis of, did you say, the

13 Tribunal has wrongly established facts or is it on the basis that you say

14 that on the facts that are established they have drawn the wrong legal

15 conclusions out of that? Is it -- do you disagree mainly on the basis of

16 the facts underlying the conclusion of the Tribunal or is it on the basis

17 of the conclusions drawn on the basis of the established facts?

18 A. Mr. President, I did not dare to criticise the conclusions of the

19 Tribunal here. I criticised implicitly, rather, the experts who had

20 prepared the background material that gave rise to such conclusions by the

21 Tribunal. I studied Gow and some other authors who I can't remember. But

22 in the Tadic case, the Talic case, in the Krstic case, Kunarac,

23 Dokmanovic, Krajisnik, all the cases that I could study, all the material

24 that I could lay my hands on, I studied. The part which qualifies the war

25 in Bosnia and Herzegovina as an international conflict is the part I

Page 21276

1 disagree with. I believe that I am right, and I have profound arguments

2 to support my view, but it is up to the Tribunal to decide, of course.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I do understand you well that you say the

4 experts that have provided the facts underlying the conclusion of the

5 Tribunal, some changes of the Tribunal, that the conflict was of an

6 international character, those experts have not presented the facts in a

7 correct way or perhaps even wrongly?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear.

10 General Radinovic, let me first ask the parties whether on the

11 basis of the questions asked by the Bench there's any need to put further

12 questions to you.

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

15 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Yes. First of all, I apologise. We still don't

17 have the title of that book that I wanted to get a moment ago when I

18 interrupted Honourable Judge El Mahdi. I did not mention the name of

19 General Galic but the author Gallois, who was by the interpreters and I

20 said that the interpreters had said that they missed the title of this

21 book. I did not get an answer to my question so I'm asking it of the

22 witness again so that we have it on record.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you again give us the title of the book you

24 just referred to, that is, the title of the book by Mr. Gallois, Pierre

25 Gallois, if I understood you well.

Page 21277

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Pierre-Marie Gallois wrote a

2 book called "The Blood of Petrol Bosna," that is, at least, the Serbian

3 translation. I don't know the French title, the original title.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any further questions?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

6 Mr. President, I have three or four questions. The first two have

7 to do with the questions asked by Honourable Judge El Mahdi.

8 Q. [Interpretation] General, you were asked questions about by the

9 assistance of the JNA extended in this conflict, how it assisted and so on

10 and so forth. My question is as follows: Could you tell us, in terms of

11 distribution of weapons by the JNA, relative to the barracks in Sarajevo

12 during the events from the beginning of the war, namely, do you know

13 whether these weapons were distributed, if at all, to one side or the

14 weapons were distributed, if at all, to several parties, to several sides?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, that goes beyond the scope of

16 questions put by the Bench and could have properly been raised in direct

17 examination.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] It seems to me, counsel, that you

20 are entitled to ask several questions, but this does go beyond the scope

21 of the questions I asked and the answers the general gave, so you're

22 entitled to ask a couple of questions.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It seems to me that you are

24 right. Thank you for this.

25 Q. Do you have, General, an answer to my question? In your

Page 21278

1 knowledge, what can you tell us about the assistance of the JNA, for

2 instance, in terms of the distribution of weapons by the former JNA?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps a matter of clarification.

5 With respect to what Judge El Mahdi said, it's unclear whether or not the

6 objection was sustain or denied with respect to this question, which again

7 has been put to the witness, at least with respect to the English

8 transcript.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi intended to deny the question but at

11 the same time said that it went beyond the questions. So I take it that

12 only to a limited extent questions will be allowed in this respect.

13 So could you tell us anything about the distribution,

14 General Radinovic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Weapons were partly stored in depots

16 within the framework of the strategic reserves of Bosnia-Herzegovina that

17 were founded long before the war, and each side looted the depots that

18 were on its own territory. As for the weapons that were in use in units,

19 we know that on the 4th of May, 1992 the decision was made to withdraw the

20 JNA from Bosnia and Herzegovina within 15 days. This term was very short,

21 and it was absolutely impossible to withdraw the JNA within that term, so

22 military property and resources were looted and confiscated. Parts of

23 these resources, parts of the weaponry of the units that were within the

24 composition of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps remained within the Sarajevo

25 Romanija Corps, whereas some part of the weaponry was taken over by the

Page 21279

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Page 21280

1 Muslim army in the course of lootings of depots and robberies. So parts

2 of the weaponry were kept and parts were taken away. That's the brief

3 answer.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you, General. But have you found during your studies a

6 document that would establish an interparty agreement on the distribution

7 of weapons?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the question -- we have established that it was

11 beyond what was asked by Judge El Mahdi. Apart from that, the matter is

12 dealt with in the report. So therefore, please move to your next subject.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'll

14 move on to a different subject, Your Honour.

15 Q. General, in response to a question by Honourable Judge El Mahdi

16 you answered that the army, despite this blockade, the BH army still

17 managed to get out of what you call the interior circle and to transfer

18 its battalions. You mentioned specifically the territory of the airport

19 which gave breathing space to the city. Here is my question: Did you see

20 more than one document that would allow you to assert this, that is, the

21 existence of movement of troops from inside to the outside?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Objection.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: That was answered by the witness in response to the

25 question from Judge El Mahdi.

Page 21281

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was an

3 introductory question because what I really wanted to do, with the Court's

4 leave, is that we put on the ELMO a document that we have found - and

5 we'll give you a number soon - which illustrates this type of situation

6 from which we can see that it was on documentary basis that the general

7 was able to conclude this, and it has to do with the BH army. I think

8 this goes to the very essence of our proceedings.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Concentrating

10 on the basis of the source of the answer, rather than to question --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Precisely, precisely.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then briefly you're allowed to do so.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Would you kindly put this on the ELMO. So let's put this one on

15 the overhead projector.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if we could either get a copy or an

17 indication of what the document is.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. We have all the

20 documents for distribution, with the kind assistance of all involved,

21 together with translations.

22 Q. General, I believe you now have the document in front of you. Can

23 you see it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. My first question: Is it one of the documents of whose existence

Page 21282

1 you just told us?

2 A. Yes. It is a document that the staff of the Supreme Command sends

3 to the command of the 1st Corps ordering the 1st Corps to take certain

4 action, certain movement from Sarajevo towards Igman.

5 Q. Thank you. I don't want to squander the time I have at my

6 disposal, but during your study and research, were you able to examine

7 other documents of the same nature and perhaps the same contents as this

8 one?

9 A. Yes. I found documents where the plan is made for the use of

10 tunnels below the airport and ordering the brigade commander in whose area

11 of responsibility the tunnels are, specifying the precise timetable of

12 entrances and exits from the tunnel, and it has to do with movements of

13 troops.

14 Q. Now, let's look at the second part of the paragraph 2, which says

15 "crossing from."

16 A. "During the execution of the task, prevent self-removal"?

17 Q. No, the sentence that begins with "prelaz", "crossing."

18 A. I can't see it.

19 Q. The next sentence after the one you're in.

20 A. Yes, I see. The second sentence says: "Effect the crossing of

21 the runway by units and by parts of units reducing to the minimum the risk

22 and probability of conflict with UNPROFOR."

23 Q. Are we talking about days or nights? Because this document talks

24 about night-time crossings. So if troops are crossing the airport, would

25 that be a legitimate objective?

Page 21283

1 A. Yes, it would certainly represent a legitimate target for the

2 other side.

3 Q. My penultimate question: You told us briefly something about

4 discipline in an army corps, specifically relative to the forces that are

5 named paramilitary forces. Here is my question: Were you able to

6 find - and if yes, in what measure - documents from which we could clearly

7 see that General Galic made all efforts possible to control the situation,

8 in terms of discipline, precisely in order to avoid problems such as

9 disorganised elements, unwarranted opening of fire, et cetera? So if you

10 found such documents, what could you tell us about this?

11 A. When I was preparing to write my report, I found a wealth of

12 documents, starting from October, the first documents were dated in

13 October and the General Galic assumed command of the 7th of September, as

14 we know. From the beginning of his term in this position, General Galic

15 was resolutely fighting illegitimate behaviour, conduct by all such units

16 that were arriving to the front line, and improper conduct by some of his

17 subordinate commanders. He was also resolutely combatting the unwarranted

18 interference by local authorities - and here we have references to illegal

19 transfers of oil, robberies, threats by his own units and his own command,

20 that they would settle accounts with him, the replacement of Major Dunjic,

21 then the situation on the front when he sent a group of officers headed by

22 Marcetic, chief of staff, and another officer, when he established a

23 forward group on the front line in order to establish control over such

24 undisciplined units.

25 Q. Thank you. If I understood you correctly and if we proceed from

Page 21284

1 the principle that before General Galic assumed command --

2 JUDGE ORIE: You first said one question, and then you said the

3 last question, and then the last question became the penultimate question.

4 Is this your last question?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is my very last question,

6 yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [No interpretation]

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I wasn't really translated.

9 I'm talking about the principle that -- the situation was a bedlam really,

10 a powder keg. The situation was like sitting on a powder keg, was a

11 bedlam, very chaotic, a bedlam really.

12 Q. So in view of that situation, how much time - just give us an

13 order of magnitude - how much time did it take a responsible person in the

14 military --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, that question has characteristics of

17 being misleading. It also mischaracterises the testimony and the

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You are -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to start with, you are

20 creating a picture first, a picture in which the witness only has to fill

21 in one element, and the picture is yours. That is leading. Could you

22 please put a question without first creating the picture --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] All right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ask a question. Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] All right.

Page 21285

1 Q. Taking into account, General, what you just told us about the

2 situation concerning discipline and from your experience as a military

3 man, how much time would it take a corps commander to restore order to the

4 functioning of units in his command? In other words, if everything was

5 organised to perfection, it would take two days. And if not, how much

6 time?

7 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That's clearly a

8 hypothetical question. It calls for speculation. There's no factual

9 foundation in the question that would allow the witness to answer that.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I respond, Mr. President?

11 This is absolutely not a hypothetical question for the reason that the

12 general was able to examine an important number of documents, that he was

13 able to see this, he was able to establish the level of organisation that

14 existed, and he knows as an expert - and his report shows it very

15 well - he knows very well what stages are necessary in such a

16 reorganisation. He should know whether General Galic was able to restore

17 order within two days or more. And that is -- it is in this capacity that

18 I'm asking him the question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would have no

21 question -- no objection if he put the question in the way he just phrased

22 it to the Chamber with respect to this accused and this situation. In

23 terms of referring to a corps commander -- if the question was simply

24 rephrased, we would have no objection, if it's relating to the specific

25 facts of this case.

Page 21286

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please rephrase the question and

2 refrain from introducing all kind of elements which are not in evidence

3 and that are [Previous interpretation continues] ... Hear the answer of

4 the witness.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I begin taking into

6 account your statement? Because it has to do with the answer he just

7 gave.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- let me ask the question to you. In

9 the circumstances you described, how much time it would need for

10 General Galic to restore a disturbed order?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under normal circumstances - and I'm

12 now talking about normal circumstances - the corps commander takes 15 to

13 30 days to assume his duties. So much time is given to him for the

14 transition of duties, to read all the reports, to inspect his units, and

15 to finish by saying "I have now assumed my new position."

16 In the situation when General Galic became corps commander and in

17 the operative situation, which I described in my testimony and in my

18 expert report, it is absolutely beyond reason to imagine that

19 General Galic could have restored order in the operative situation in less

20 than two months. From the end of 1992 to the beginning of 1993 he was

21 busy restoring order and certain deficiencies continued to cause failures

22 throughout the war in the command system.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

Page 21287

1 for this question. That was my last question. But before we finish, we

2 just wanted to say that there are documents that we want to tender from

3 the bar table in the traditional way. I'm saying this so that it's clear

4 on the record.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis, is it clear what documents --

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, before that, the Prosecution had two

7 questions arising from either the Bench or from --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I should have given you an opportunity. I

9 apologise.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

12 Q. Witness, with respect to an answer given by you to a question from

13 Judge El Mahdi, you said that the Army of Yugoslavia did not prevent

14 Bosnian Serbs from returning to Bosnia to perform their patriotic duty,

15 fighting to defend their people. Did Bosnian Serbs in fact return to

16 Bosnia in order to do just that?

17 A. I am saying that they returned to do that, but if they returned

18 for only that reason I don't know. It was not the subject of my

19 particular study and it's not a proper question for me.

20 Q. You -- a few moments ago in response to a question from the

21 Defence, you indicated that the -- that Marcetic established a forward

22 group. Do you know the name of the group that was established?

23 A. I don't understand. Marcetic did not establish a forward group.

24 He established a forward command post on the orders of the corps commander

25 as his deputy.

Page 21288

1 Q. Okay. Do you know where that forward command post --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have an objection, a

5 delayed one. We believe that again we are witnessing what we called

6 yesterday a fishing expedition and we don't want to fall into the -- run

7 into the same difficulties again.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, on page 29, line 22 you will see

11 reference to - at least in the English transcript - or lines 21 and 22

12 Marcetic, chief of staff, and another officer when he "established a

13 forward group on the front line in order to establish control over such

14 undisciplined units." That was in response to a question from

15 the Defence. My question simply was: If there was a name of this forward

16 group. The witness has now told us it was a forward command post, and the

17 only remaining question I would put to the witness, if I'm permitted to do

18 so, is where on the front line that forward command post was located.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please put that question to the witness.

20 MR. MUNDIS:

21 Q. Witness, you've just told us that Marcetic established a forward

22 command post on the orders of the corps commander. Where on the front

23 line was this forward command post?

24 A. The forward command post was located in the barracks of the Butile

25 installation. It is the large depot in the western part of the Sarajevo

Page 21289

1 region. The forward command post was sometimes also located on the Nisic

2 elevation, in Ilidza, in Trnovo. Forward command posts are set up as

3 required. Whenever the need arises, a forward command post is sent out.

4 General Galic also formed a group of officers headed by Kosovac, who

5 was --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Yes. I am

7 sorry for the interpreters that I interrupted. Until now you were only

8 asked where it was located. You've have answered that question.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. We have no further

10 questions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then General Radinovic, this concludes your

12 testimony in this court, and I should perhaps add to you "in this case."

13 We'd like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague and having

14 answered all questions from parties and from the Bench. And before I ask

15 the usher to escort you out of the courtroom, I'd like to say a few words

16 to you in private session.

17 Could we turn into private session.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

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11 JUDGE ORIE: Can we turn into private session.

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE ORIE: And I would like to invite the parties to see whether

20 we can deal with the exhibits introduced through the witness Radinovic or

21 from the bench -- from the -- yes, from the bar table, yes. I'm still not

22 a trained common lawyer.

23 To do that at a later stage if the parties would agree so that in

24 order -- I do not know that I was aware that the expert witness to come

25 would not be available at the beginning of next week, but let's see how

Page 21295

1 far we come.

2 Yes.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I note that I haven't been given an

4 opportunity to respond. I don't seek it. I think there are more

5 important matters.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No. It's a matter -- it's a matter that doesn't need

7 any decision, I would say, at this very moment.

8 MR. IERACE: No.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, we heard that Mr. Piletta-Zanin was

10 complaining about what happened. We cannot change that any more.

11 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. And I won't put on the record the

12 Prosecution position in relation to what he said.

13 I should note that the transcript as to what was said before the

14 break in relation to my interjection is incomplete. What I in fact said

15 was "this should stop, Mr. President. This should stop."

16 Mr. President, moving on, there is the matter of the videotape,

17 and I note in relation --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: -- To the remainder of the day, that earlier this

20 week you said that there might be some further sitting time this

21 afternoon.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It has not been arranged for, as a matter of

23 fact. But we could see -- I'm a bit surprised by the fact that the next

24 expert witness is not available in the beginning of next week any more.

25 But there were quite a lot of problems to continue this afternoon, but we

Page 21296

1 still could see whether we could gain an hour somewhere.

2 But the Chamber -- at least, I have some other arrangements as

3 well this afternoon, made only after we decided that we'd try not to rush

4 and push the matter. So therefore, we'll have to perhaps first ask the

5 expert witness when she could come.

6 But let's first start and see how far we come.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The response of the Defence is

10 obviously that we agree with your suggestion.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is, to postpone the exhibits.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But I haven't heard the

15 Prosecution's response.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Yes. The Prosecution would have no objection to

17 that, Mr. President. But perhaps it might be helpful in order to prepare

18 our response to the various documents if the Defence perhaps later today

19 or this evening could indicate their specific position with respect to the

20 various categories of documents which have been dealt with by this

21 witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not quite clear to me what you asked them,

23 but perfectly out of court you'll be able to communicate with them what

24 you'd like them to inform you about.

25 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the next witness into

Page 21297

1 the courtroom.

2 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're not the only one,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, therefore, you'll -- you'll be -- get more

6 information.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this witness will be cross-examined by

9 Mr. Stamp, who's on his way down at the moment.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: We hadn't anticipated we would start straight away.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 Good morning, Mrs. Radovanovic. You -- always my first question

14 is whether you hear me in a language you understand. You seemed not to do

15 a minute ago but ...

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Radovanovic, before giving testimony in this

18 court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

19 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

20 the truth. May I invite you to make that declaration of which the text

21 will be handed out to you now by the usher.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth..

24 WITNESS: SVETLANA RADOVANOVIC

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 21298

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

2 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Ms. Radovanovic.

6 A. Good day.

7 Q. Could you, first of all, introduce yourself to us. Could you tell

8 us where you were born, when, and what you are by profession.

9 A. My name is Svetlana Radovanovic. I was born in 1949 in Sombor. I

10 graduated from the Faculty of Philosophy, and I obtained my MA and Ph.D.

11 From the Faculty of Geography. At the moment I am the chief of the

12 department for demography and I work at the university in Belgrade in the

13 Faculty of Geography.

14 Q. Thank you. Dr. Radovanovic, at the Defence's request you

15 submitted a report, submitted it to the court on the 29th of January,

16 2003; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it's correct.

18 Q. Do you stand by everything that you wrote in your report?

19 A. Yes. But there are certain amendments I would like to make.

20 When I compared the English and Serbian version, I realised that

21 certain errors were made. On page 4 of the English text, the translation

22 is not correct. You don't say -- it shouldn't say "incompetent," it

23 should say "incomplete."

24 On page 12 of the English version, there is another error. In the

25 Serbian translation I got table 2 and in the third column there is no

Page 21299

1 date. That date is contained in the English translation. Perhaps I used

2 more severe terms because I was sure that a translation couldn't contain

3 such an error. It's an official translation.

4 And on page 19 of the English text, instead of the number "6" --

5 instead of the number "600," the number should be "699."

6 Q. Is that all, Mrs. Radovanovic?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Ms. Radovanovic. I

10 couldn't follow you. You mentioned page 4, and you said that a

11 word -- but I don't know where is the word. Which paragraph?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll tell you immediately. I'll try

13 and do that right away.

14 In the Serbian version, under the title "Main conclusions," that's

15 page 4 of the English version, item A, it says "all the data sources used

16 for the analysis --"

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I already -- I already found it. I already

18 found it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says "incomplete," but the

20 English translation says "incompetent."

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: And the second issue refers to page -- the

22 second issue refers to page --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's on page 12.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any problem with the audio?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I think

Page 21300

1 that the witness has problems with the headphones. I just wanted the

2 witness to be assisted. That's all.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I see.

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: And then you made the reference to page 12 of

7 the Serb -- Serbian version. But I would like you to repeat that.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On page 12 of the English version.

9 And that's page 7 in the Serbian version. There is a table which says

10 "Representation of all the phenomenas represented in the PDS sample."

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That table consists of three

13 columns. In the third column, where it says "PDS 1994," in the

14 translation it didn't include this date that you have in the English text,

15 which says "10/9/92 until 30/9/94." In the Serbian version, it's on page

16 03032066. That date isn't there.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You mean the date which says

18 "01/01/92-30/09/94" in the English text is not in the original?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. That date, the 1st of

20 January, 1992 to the 30th of September, 1994, that date is there, but

21 there are three columns in the table. The first table says "all," and

22 then you have the date, the 1st of January, 1992 up until the 30th of

23 September, 1994. And then in the Serbian version you don't have anything

24 but in the English version you have the date, the 10th of September, 1992

25 to the 10th of August, 1994.

Page 21301

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: In fact, I was checking both versions, and I

3 think that they are identical. I don't see the difference.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To clarify the matter, may I

7 intervene? Just to save time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I checked that with the

10 witness. The version that the witness is referring to is not the version

11 of her report. It's the translated version that was provided to her by

12 the Tribunal's service. It's the version of the -- of Tabeau's report.

13 In the translation of Tabeau's report - and I verified this myself - in

14 table 4, this table was not completely translated, and that's where the

15 error occurred. In the translated document, the document translated by

16 the Tribunal, and the expert worked on the Serbian version of this

17 document, in the translation you don't have this element which is in the

18 report submitted by the expert Ewa Tabeau.

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. It's a different issue. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, on page 1 of your report, you provided a summary

23 of the results to which your main conclusions were added.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The first question I would like to ask you is: The statistical

Page 21302

1 analysis in undefined parts of the six Sarajevo municipalities, could you

2 please explain what this means, the undefined parts of the six Sarajevo

3 municipalities, in statistical terms.

4 A. Those are part that is have not been defined in statistical terms

5 for the simple reason that there are no statistical limits reasons,

6 statistically determined limits. There are probably certain political or

7 military limits, data but not in statistical terms because there are

8 certain areas that are determined, that are taken into consideration. In

9 statistics there is a definite procedure according to which the

10 statistical boundaries of an area are assessed, in terms of my field.

11 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, you said that there was a procedure. If a

12 statistician is carrying out an analysis, why is it necessary for these

13 statistical areas to be determined?

14 A. Well, whenever a census is made, a census of the population or of

15 households in particular, it's of great importance to define the

16 statistical areas concerned by the census, and this is also important to

17 avoid duplicating information or leaving out information. I can provide

18 you with a detailed explanation of this.

19 There is an elaborate procedure that is applied.

20 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Radovanovic. On page 6, item 2 in the Serbian

21 text - that's page 10 in the English version - you mention the

22 shortcomings in Ewa Tabeau's findings. You say that she relies on the

23 area where a census was carried out. You say that this included 88

24 municipalities. And my question would be: In those 89 local

25 municipalities, do these 89 local municipalities represent a statistically

Page 21303

1 defined area?

2 A. The municipalities -- the local communes weren't statistically or

3 administratively defined. They were associations of citizens,

4 associations that existed on a voluntary basis, and they would deal with

5 certain utility problems or residential problems.

6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Radovanovic. You have explained to us what the

7 idea of a local commune is in your report. Bearing in mind our time

8 restrictions, I'll perhaps put a question of a general kind to you and

9 could you briefly answer it. What is necessary in order to carry out a

10 population census, a census of the population or a census of households?

11 A. First of all, you need a lot of money. Census populations or

12 household censuses, if you want to carry out a total -- a complete census,

13 this costs a lot of money. In every state these are some of the most

14 expensive actions that you can carry out in statistics. You intensify the

15 preparations for three or four years before this. There is a very broad

16 procedure and methodology that has to be used to prepare and carry out a

17 census. This has to be done if you want the census to be carried out

18 correctly.

19 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, when you mention methodology, what has to be

20 precisely determined?

21 A. First of all, you have to determine the exact area, you have to

22 define the area that is concerned by the census, and then you have to

23 determine what the objectives of the census are, you have to determine the

24 units of the census, that is to say, what will be included in the census,

25 and then it is necessary to determine the methodology which that will be

Page 21304

1 used or, rather, the way in which you are going to proceed. And if you

2 are carrying out such a wide statistical action, there are various kind of

3 methodologies. There's an organisational methodology, how is it going to

4 be organised, which organ will be concerned with certain fields, what does

5 the statistical department do, what does the cadastral department do, and

6 there is a methodology which refers to the instruments of the census.

7 To simplify, the methodology is the way in which you are going to

8 proceed, and everyone has to respect this procedure.

9 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Radovanovic, to the extent that I've understood

10 your answers, you said that it was a state action within a framework of

11 statistical methods. Are you aware of any census carried -- done by

12 institutions that were not statistical institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. No. Or rather, if any such action was taken, all I can say is

14 that it was never officially verified by official statistical institutes

15 in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

16 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, you mentioned censuses carried out by

17 statistical institutes. If I've understood you, you said that methodology

18 was important. And with reference to the methodology, you mentioned those

19 carrying out the census. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct. A census involves a large number of people.

21 For example, the 1991 census in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

22 involved over 100.000 people. Their tasks varied. Some people were

23 involved in statistics and they have a certain number of tasks and then

24 there are people who are not involved in statistics but similarly they are

25 assigned certain tasks. Whenever a population census is being carried

Page 21305

1 out, those carrying out the census out are the key people.

2 There is a special procedure that concerns how those involved in

3 the census are to be trained, et cetera. I apologise if that's of any

4 importance. There were over 60.000 people involved in taking the census

5 in the 1991 census. I can't say that that is the exact figure because it

6 depended on the area of the republic. It varied from republic to

7 republic.

8 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Radovanovic, as far as I have understood your

9 question, it's important for the person taking the census or the people

10 taking the census to have certain qualifications. Have I understood you

11 correctly?

12 A. Absolutely. One of the conditions for carrying out a good census

13 is to have people who are qualified. They have to have a certain level of

14 literacy. They have to be of certain professional standards, because they

15 have to be trained in order to master the methodology that has to be used

16 when taking the census. The training that they are given provides them

17 with a certain methodology that must be applied, that must be strictly

18 applied if the census is to be valid, if it's to be carried out uniformly.

19 Q. If you're talking about the qualifications of those taking the

20 census and the necessity of ensuring that the census is unified, it has

21 certain uniformity, can you tell us what this means when you say it should

22 have a certain uniformity.

23 A. Uniformity, that means that you have to strictly adhere to the

24 methodology and you mustn't allow the census-taker to take decisions

25 himself about certain factors because this is a huge project. It includes

Page 21306

1 a lot of people, and you can't take decisions that do not conform. If you

2 want valid information, then it is necessary to provide instructions as to

3 how this is to be carried out. So the methodology has to be respected and

4 this ensures a certain uniformity. The census-taker has to adhere to what

5 is important for statistics. The census-taker is not free to assess

6 independently what the information should be.

7 Q. So Mrs. Radovanovic, you're telling us that the census-taker -- a

8 census-taker can't be someone who is allowed to interpret the information

9 provided to the census-taker when carrying out the census.

10 A. No, that's not allowed. There are penalties prescribed by the

11 law. The census-taker has to strictly adhere to the methodology. But in

12 statistics and especially in statistics that regard censuses, there are

13 legal articles and there were many meetings that dealt with the subject of

14 the influence excerpted by the census-taker. The census-taker can

15 strictly adhere to a methodology but can nevertheless influence the

16 results through his behaviour towards the subjects and by asking questions

17 in an imprecise way. So in censuses it's been possible to detect the

18 influence of the census-taker, especially in difficult times when the

19 population is either not well informed or does not want to provide

20 information because they fear certain things.

21 I can provide you with an example that is interesting for

22 economical reasons. For example, very often the population, especially

23 those involved in agriculture, wanted to conceal the amount of land they

24 possessed and the amount of cattle they possessed in order to avoid taxes.

25 And if you have a census-taker who is not able to explain the reasons

Page 21307

1 for which a census is being taken, then you get a totally -- you get --

2 the information you get about the cattle possessed is totally false.

3 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Radovanovic, as someone who is involved in

4 statistics, and we're now talking about censuses and the methodology used

5 by census-takers, can you tell us what instruments, what tools are used

6 when taking a census?

7 A. Well, above all the tools could be divided into the main and

8 secondary tools. A large number of tools are involved. You have to

9 determine the statistical areas with precision. I have to determine all

10 the forms, all the instructions that accompany this, and one of the main

11 tools, if we're talking about population censuses or household censuses,

12 one of the main tools are questionnaires. For example, these are used for

13 censuses and you have those methodological instructions. And regular

14 censuses also have another important tool: That's a control method. You

15 have to record what sort of statistics are involved in that control

16 procedure. You have to try to avoid duplicating results, and you have

17 strictly defined -- strictly defined boundaries, strictly defined areas in

18 which the census-taker can move. For example, if it's defined as a

19 street. And you say the census-taker of a certain area, 52, shall adhere

20 to the left side of the Proletarski Brigada Street and shall deal with

21 houses 52 to 56 to 180 and then crosses the road at the traffic lights and

22 takes the census of the houses number 2 and 4 on the right-hand side of

23 the street.

24 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, I'd like to stop you there. Although you have

25 answered my question, as one of the tools used in a census you mentioned,

Page 21308

1 if I have understood your answer -- you mentioned questionnaires, and you

2 said that that was the most important tool used in censuses. What should

3 a questionnaire contain when used as a tool in a census?

4 A. Well, above all, a questionnaire has to be clear and the questions

5 must be quite precisely defined, and it has to relate to the units that it

6 is interested in. It has to be understandable. It mustn't be ambiguous.

7 Very often questions are provided which can be answered by circling a

8 certain number or establishing a certain number or crossing out a certain

9 number. You very seldom give questions which can be answered by writing

10 an answer. But above all, it has to be clearly imagined, it has to be a

11 simple and it shouldn't contain elements that could scare or disturb the

12 person being questioned.

13 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, when working on your report, did you have the

14 opportunity of seeing the questionnaire that was used for the household

15 census as it's stated in the report in the free territory of the city of

16 Sarajevo?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us whether that questionnaire which was used in the

19 census of households for the relevant period, the period that was relevant

20 to the Defence, can you tell us whether it conforms to statistical

21 standards.

22 A. No. First of all, it's not clear. And the units that are

23 being -- that are the subject of the census are not clearly defined,

24 certain concepts are not clear in it, it doesn't correspond to statistical

25 standards and it doesn't have any characteristic that could be used in a

Page 21309

1 statistical analysis. It doesn't have room for figures, et cetera, and

2 its main problem is that its questions are not clearly defined, the unit

3 that is the subject -- the units that are the subject of the census are

4 not clear, and it also contains questions which could be disturbing. And

5 I even have the impression that this questionnaire had a certain target

6 group in mind, and I think that question 4, 5 -- questions 4, 5, 6,

7 12 -- no, question 7 and question 12 are questions which might disturb the

8 subjects. And in my opinion, they're not very clear because I don't know

9 what they are referring to.

10 For example, question 4 says "the members of households who left

11 Sarajevo or were wounded outside of Sarajevo remained in the territory of

12 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina which is under the control of the

13 aggressor."

14 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, you said "wounded." I think that it says

15 "displaced" in item 4.

16 A. "Displaced." I apologise. It's not very legible. Who were

17 displaced outside of Sarajevo. And it says "under the control of the

18 aggressor."

19 Question 5 says "who died in the course of the aggression."

20 6 says "wounded in the household in the course of the aggression

21 aggression," "went missing from the household in the course of the

22 aggression" - that's question 7 - and question 12 is "died in their

23 household in the course of the aggression." It's not will -- clearly

24 defined here. The aggression referred to is not clearly defined, and the

25 target group is not clearly defined. Whether it's the entire population

Page 21310

1 living in that area and whether they can provide some kind of answer

2 without fearing anything because the population in that area is ethnically

3 heterogenous.

4 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, I think that in your expert report, in your

5 statement, these parts that we have read out from the questionnaire, you

6 characterised them as biased?

7 A. Yes, I considered them to be biased because they referred to a

8 certain target group which is to be the subject of the census. I can

9 explain this if you allow me.

10 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, if we have time, we'll come back to this issue.

11 My next question would refer to methodology. What is the procedure for

12 carrying out a census?

13 A. Well, I don't know what the procedure applied was here. I can

14 tell you what kinds of procedure exist in taking a census. If you mean

15 direct census. In the procedure, first you determine the way in which it

16 is going to be carried out. It can be done by dealing out questionnaires.

17 It can also be carried out - and I assume this was done here, although I

18 have no firm facts to support it - to distribute questionnaires among

19 houses or to go to the local community and give a statement according to

20 these parameters. This is not the practice in regular censuses, regular

21 censuses imply the method of questionnaire. You go from house to house.

22 Q. Can you tell us, is there any control of how a census is taken,

23 and how is this control exerted?

24 A. In the very procedure of taking a census itself, the first or

25 second day of the census each census-taker has to show the material

Page 21311

1 gathered every evening to his municipal controller, and the controller has

2 to check whether the census-taker was adhering to methodology, whether he

3 was committing a systematical error and to caution the census-taker about

4 this so that the error should not persist until the end of the census. So

5 this is the immediate control during the execution of the census. Then

6 comes another control immediately after the census is taken. This is

7 random control. You take all the census areas and select certain

8 households to which you send a second round of census-takers. These

9 census-takers take the information again and then you make a comparison

10 between the first and the second census-taker and thus at the very start,

11 at the very outset, you can assess whether the methodology was strictly

12 observed, whether there is a possibility of systematic errors, whether

13 something was omitted. For instance, sometimes the census-taker that

14 comes in the second round comes across a household where the first

15 census-taker hasn't been. That is 10 to 20 days after the census was

16 finished.

17 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, you gave us your opinion about the report of

18 Mrs. Ewa Tabeau and the methodology she used in your report. Could you by

19 analysing the material determine whether there was any control in that

20 census.

21 A. When analysing the material, I couldn't even assess who did the

22 census, apart from the institution. I wasn't able to determine who the

23 census-takers were in the first place, let alone whether there was any

24 control. I didn't even know what was done. I just had information. The

25 only information I had was that so many households were covered by the

Page 21312

1 census.

2 Q. Tell us, do sociopolitical conditions affect a census?

3 A. Yes. The areas of the former Yugoslavia are very characteristic

4 of this. After the Second World War, various areas in the former

5 Yugoslavia had different sociopolitical situations which determined

6 certain characteristics. This is the greatest impact and this is why you

7 can always wonder about the quality. For instance, on the issue of ethnic

8 structure, there could be certain problems with the '79 census in Croatia

9 because it coincided with the Maspok event. The '81 census was very

10 idiosyncratic when it came to Kosovo because of the demonstrations, et

11 cetera. The '81 census was very special for all areas of Yugoslavia

12 because the society was going through turbulent times and we have studies

13 about this saying that political parties took over the census for their

14 own purposes.

15 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, bearing in mind that the census of households

16 analysed in the Tabeau report, and on which you have your own opinion, was

17 done during the war. Did this particular fact affect this census? And we

18 know what you think of it. Did it affect the census?

19 A. I never ever heard, regarding the Balkans or even Europe, that a

20 single census was taken during the war. All censuses are normally taken

21 after the war, for the simple reason that it is necessary to determine the

22 demographic picture. I never ever heard of a census taken during the war.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will

25 continue with the questioning.

Page 21313

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly, Your Honour. Just one

3 clarification: What is the deadline that we have for this examination?

4 Because we're going to have to proceed as fast as possible.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I must check, to be quite honest, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Doctor, good day to you.

8 A. Good day.

9 Q. I would like to take you back to what you just told us. You told

10 us that you could give us certain explanations if we wanted it. As

11 briefly as possible, you would give us your impressions. I'm going to ask

12 for certain technical clarifications.

13 A. You mean about my explanation concerning target groups? If I read

14 the questionnaire and if certain questions in it referred to aggression,

15 saying "during the aggression," et cetera, and you have in mind that an

16 ethnically heterogenous population is contained in this area and if we

17 know that there was no attack by third states, that it is a civil war

18 that's going on, then I wonder how it is possible to know precisely who is

19 perceived as the aggressor by a certain ethnic group.

20 For instance, if you asked this question of a Muslim during the

21 aggression, he would think of one aggressor. If you ask this question of

22 a Serb, he would have a different perception. This is very tricky, and I

23 wouldn't like to go into it. But I suppose that not all ethnic groups

24 perceived one and the same aggressor.

25 Q. Thank you. Doctor, I would like to go back to one detail from the

Page 21314

1 questionnaire that you have in front of you, namely the place - I don't

2 have it here - but from memory it is a reference to "mesto," which means

3 "place." Have you found this spot?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I've found it. It's in question 6, if that's what you

5 mean, the area --

6 Q. All right. In this wording, what could you tell us about the

7 precision or lack of precision of this wording, "place of death" is meant

8 or the "place of wounding," because we have points 5 -- items 5 and 6?

9 A. In official statistics when you say "place," you have a dash and

10 then it goes on to say "settlement or populated area." You cannot use

11 local terms in official statistics. So in official statistics, when you

12 say "place," this has a very precise statistical meaning, a very clearly

13 defined populated area. I have the impression that in this questionnaire

14 that parts of a neighbourhood can be treated as a place, a certain

15 locality. And what could cause problems here is that certain parts of

16 neighbourhoods or populated areas can appear that are identical in name to

17 whole areas. For instance, I said that one of Sarajevo neighbourhoods is

18 called "neighbourhoods," whereas here you have one part of Dobrinja that

19 is named in the questionnaire. The same goes for Modrica and Jablanica,

20 that are taken as independent areas. Dobrinja here is part of one of

21 Sarajevo municipalities. You can also take a street and call it "place."

22 The assumption is that you should name the street like Marsala Tito

23 Street. No street is called like that any more. Times have changed. But

24 there was no street in Yugoslavia sometime ago which did not have a

25 Marsala Tito Street. If you have such a loose definition and you say that

Page 21315

1 it's Marsala Tito Street, how can you know for certain that it's in

2 Sarajevo and not in some other place. Or if in another item the answer

3 can read "died near the mosque, got killed near the mosque." What I'm

4 saying is that it is the duty of a statistician to consult a thick book

5 with place names defining areas in which these places are, defining the

6 municipalities. Then you can see that you have different areas which

7 places of the same name.

8 Q. Thank you. Doctor, I would like us now to go back, sticking to

9 your report. Do you have it in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. I would like you to specify a couple of things. You

12 said in item C that some of the results attained by your colleague,

13 Mrs. Tabeau, are exaggerated by about 20 per cent. I would like you to

14 tell us briefly how you arrived at this discrepancy of 20 per cent. On

15 what technical basis?

16 A. All I had was the Tabeau report. In this report, in the form of

17 some synthetic tables - and I have table 1 and table 3 and later table

18 18 - table 1 and table 3, which are identical - let me just have a

19 look - contain 3.798 killed and 12.919 wounded. But within one and the

20 same table, when you look at the breakdown by municipalities or part of

21 municipalities, because municipalities do not feature here, you will find

22 a place where it says "Sarajevo undefined." And this undefined Sarajevo

23 contains a certain incidence. If we were not able to define Sarajevo, if

24 these incidence are quoted for an undefined Sarajevo while at the same

25 time we have indicators by parts of municipalities, then of course you

Page 21316

1 have to wonder why it is said here that Sarajevo is undefined. Why didn't

2 they define it? In my opinion, this information does not belong in this

3 table or in the sum that is quoted here for the number of wounded.

4 In table 18, furthermore, Mrs. Tabeau shows -- shows us a datum

5 "wounded, 2.963," number of wounded. And I believe this is broken down

6 by ethnicity. Based on that figure, she proceeds to make certain

7 assessments. If there are 2.963 killed - and we are talking about the

8 same time frame, the same territory, the same census from which data was

9 taken - then how come 3.798 is the total sum? If you deduct what is

10 undefined, what is shown as a second sum for the wounded and the killed,

11 then you have to conclude that this in this table, the total sum, was

12 exaggerated by 20 per cent.

13 Q. Thank you, Doctor. We all have these tables in front of us to

14 follow your argument. I would like you to specify certain other figures

15 that you gave in your report. In the English version, page 10 of your

16 report, and the bottom of page 5 in Serbian, you are talking about tables

17 1 and 6, a number which is 3.225.

18 A. Sorry, I didn't find it and I didn't understand the question.

19 Q. In your report, there is a figure - and if you look at the Serbian

20 text, which is not paginated, there is a figure that you quote,

21 3.225 - and about this number I would like you to tell us how you arrived

22 at it, what were your arithmetics and calculations that allowed you to

23 come to this number. Did you understand?

24 A. Yes, I understood now. This figure can also be calculated on the

25 basis of table 1, which I just mentioned. If you look at table 1, it

Page 21317

1 gives us a breakdown by municipality of the population. And if you take

2 into account the undefined Sarajevo, it gives us the number of 3.225 and

3 not 3.798.

4 Q. Under the chapter "General conclusions," you told us that the

5 method of Dr. Tabeau, who applied her methodology to an area unit that

6 includes 100.000 citizens, you tell us that this is not only

7 methodologically incorrect but could amount to a manipulation of figures.

8 I would like you to tell us exactly on the basis of what you assert this.

9 A. In demographic statistics, we know very well about the rates

10 expressed in terms of 100.000 citizens. They are very rarely done. But

11 in the statistics of Bosnia and Herzegovina, all rates are expressed per

12 1.000 citizens. We can open a small discussion about this, about the

13 reasons why this is so. Why this is manipulated here, I think the aim is

14 to aggrandise the importance of certain things because even some

15 statistics that are expressed in -- normally per 1.000 citizens are

16 calculated here in terms of 100.000. For instance, you have the mortality

17 rate per 1.000 citizens by municipality and you arrive at the number that

18 for the municipality of Vogosca this is a certain number. And Vogosca has

19 a population of 25.000. I don't know whether even in the twenty-second

20 century it will have a population of 100.000. I believe this is playing

21 with statistics because the entire statistics of the Balkans and the

22 former Yugoslavia uses the denominator of 1.000. I am not saying that the

23 other denominator is never used in demographics. I'm just saying that it

24 is inappropriate in this particular instance.

25 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I would like to come back in general terms to

Page 21318

1 the problem of what we called duplication. And you have indicated one

2 thing here. We know that the report of Dr. Tabeau attempted to rule out

3 as much as possible such duplication, to eliminate it as much as possible.

4 What would you say was the result as far as duplication is concerned?

5 Accurate, more or less so, to what degree?

6 A. The report says that there are 85.000 questionnaires intended for

7 households covered by the census. Out of this number, 40.000

8 questionnaires were singled out. That includes incidents of death or

9 wounding. And these 45.000 that remained were processed, trying to

10 eliminate duplication. One possible way in which duplication can occur is

11 if you try to match something, compare it, and see if there is

12 duplication. This matching is done in a way which I never heard of being

13 applied in a single census, and I don't think it is appropriate here.

14 Namely, without having precise identification data for this, instead you

15 use the first and second name with the help of an expert for names and

16 surnames, which I also ignore the meaning of, and if you have the name and

17 surname misquoted you can do with initials and the year of birth. If you

18 proceed in this way, I don't think the result can be good or precise.

19 Q. Thank you, Doctor. My following question would be the following:

20 When we are doing this kind of census and if you take a person who

21 declares themselves, be it an official or a regular person, a soldier or a

22 civilian, were there rules that would enable you to define clearly a

23 worker. Is this person, this person is an official, this person is a

24 soldier or a civilian?

25 A. No, not -- or rather, yes, they exist in official statistics but

Page 21319

1 not in this census. In this census I was unable to find a single

2 definition, either of a household or a soldier or a civilian.

3 Q. You told us yes, in principle but not in this specific situation.

4 In principle, what was there or what would have existed then at the time

5 in the former Yugoslavia, specifically in Sarajevo, that would enable us

6 to determine clearly who is who, to separate, for instance, soldiers from

7 civilians?

8 A. Well, I can only assume. I don't know what was actually done. In

9 such a situation, in my conviction, all men of military age could be

10 treated as soldiers. If not, you can take those who are officially

11 employed by the army, who officially serve in the army. I don't know what

12 was done, because it was a state of war.

13 Q. My question was this: In the former Yugoslavia, if one was doing

14 one's regular military service or if one was a career military man, would

15 one be registered somewhere, a register of servicemen, for instance, so

16 that we know how many military personnel there are as opposed to

17 civilians?

18 A. I don't know that.

19 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I would like us to move on now, to come to the

20 question of figures given by the second source of the report Bakija, the

21 funeral parlour, who was used as a source in this report. Please, may I

22 refer you to page 24 of your report and ask you to clarify this because

23 you indicated there was a contradiction in terms. Insofar as, if I

24 understood correctly, this funeral parlour buried more persons than this

25 figure would seem to allow. In the Serbian version of the report, it's in

Page 21320

1 the beginning of page 20 -- sorry, 14, 14.

2 A. If I have understood you correctly, you want me to comment on the

3 sources, on the Bakija -- on the Bakija source and you want me to

4 comment on these figures here.

5 Q. Yes, exactly.

6 A. The only source of my information was the Tabeau report. And in

7 this report, one of the sources mentioned was the Bakija source. In my

8 opinion, it's a very partial source because it only mentions the Muslims

9 buried. According to what the Tabeau report says, from the Bakija source

10 they were provided with the information that 6.266 Muslims were buried

11 during the period we are interested in. And at the same time this

12 concerns the same period, the information from the 1994 census shows that

13 2.340 Muslims were killed. I worked out the difference if only Muslims

14 were buried. So if we take the number killed -- if we take this number

15 killed, then we have the number 3.926 Muslims whose death was caused by

16 natural causes. But according to the census of 1994, it says that those

17 who died of natural causes - and this concerns all nationalities, the

18 Muslims, the Serbs, and the Croats, and it also concerns those who did not

19 declare themselves to have a particular nationality, that means

20 Yugoslavs - the number for this category is 3.434. So there is certain

21 paradox here. If Bakija a buried 3.926 and the deaths caused by natural

22 causes was also of a certain figure, it shows that the sources for this

23 information was not quite correct.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you for this information. Doctor, could you

25 also mention certain figures in the table that you reproduced. It's on

Page 21321

1 page 31 of the English transcript, page 18 of the Serbian transcript, and

2 there's just one matter I would like you to clarify. Have you found this

3 table, Doctor?

4 A. In my report, on page 18, yes, I have found it.

5 Q. If I have a look at what it says under table 2, for example, I can

6 see that there are only two pieces of information, whereas table 2

7 consists of three columns. Could you please comment on that.

8 A. My purpose wasn't to reproduce all the information in the tables.

9 I just wanted to mention certain information that showed that the sources

10 were not consistent, that they were illogical. This phenomenon is the

11 same, the same period of time, and the same area is concerned. If this is

12 how one proceeds, there is only one source for the -- if there is only one

13 source for the census, then it's illogical to have various figures. Why

14 didn't I mention this in table 2? Because in table 2 the third column

15 contains absolutely identical information as the information we can find

16 in table 1 for the killed and for those wounded. That was the only

17 reason. So I wanted to mention certain differences, and I can't conclude

18 what the relevant figures are on this basis.

19 Q. Doctor, thank you. On page 19 of the Serbian text - it's item B,

20 and Mr. President, it's page 33, item B - there are certain figures that

21 appear. And I would like you to comment on them too. You mentioned an

22 artificially blowing up the numbers, increasing the numbers. Could you

23 just comment briefly on the methodology used to reach these findings. And

24 I would like to ask you the same question with regard to item C.

25 A. Well, the procedure is identical, the same procedure as that in

Page 21322

1 table 1. The sources are table 1 and table 18 for me. In table 1,

2 something that hasn't been defined was also contained, something not

3 defined in the municipalities. And I didn't take this into consideration.

4 I've already told you why. So that's why I think that the figure was

5 increased. I can make some calculations. If you take this figure

6 contained here and you deduct this total number of killed and wounded,

7 then the result is this difference, this figure, and that shows that the

8 number was augmented by 20 per cent.

9 Q. Thank you. We're only checking the figures now, so I would like

10 to go back to the table on page 41 in the English version and page 24 in

11 the Serbian version. And I simply wanted to verify a figure that appears

12 in the third column at the top. We have the number 11.191 wounded. How

13 did you arrive at this figure, 11.191?

14 A. Table 18 and table 1 were my sources, but without the

15 cases -- cases whose nationality was not identified.

16 Q. To be more specific, was this deducted?

17 A. Well, in this table, I took away the nationalities which were

18 unidentified from the total number. And in table 1, for example, you have

19 "killed and wounded," the total number of Croats, of Muslims, the total

20 number of others and of Serbs and of those who were unknown.

21 Q. Very well. Why did you proceed in this manner?

22 A. Well, I think that having such a category, unknown nationality, I

23 don't know how this was introduced. You have a case but you don't have a

24 nationality. I thought that this was a matter of matching up something

25 between the census of 1991 and 1994. This is all a matter of guesswork

Page 21323

1 now. What I have to emphasise is that my report wanted to indicate that

2 the sources of information were not reliable, that they couldn't provide

3 good results, that they couldn't provide good samples. To simplify, it's

4 as if we started discussing what the roof of our house looked like without

5 having the foundations.

6 Q. Mrs. Radovanovic, we'll return to some of the conclusions in your

7 report.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But first of all,

9 Mr. President, I would like to know -- I don't want to make any errors.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that three hours have been

11 granted, if I'm correct. But I must say that I am not quite sure about

12 the source. If there's any --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I think two hours are in

14 question, but I'll accept three, quite gladly, although it will only take

15 me two.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I expressed already some doubt. I asked for the

17 latest list, and I'll check it. But if both parties agree that the

18 decision was two hours, then perhaps I got a list of three hours having

19 been asked for. I'll check it during the break. And I always rely

20 heavily upon the parties agreeing. So therefore, we should start with two

21 hours and let's just assume, as an exception, that I'm wrong.

22 That would mean that we have approximately one hour and five

23 minutes used. That would remain 55 minutes.

24 But that creates another issue: Mrs. Radovanovic, I was informed

25 that you are not available any more after today. Is that correct?

Page 21324

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. But I was told that

2 perhaps we wouldn't finish today.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I asked whether it would be

5 possible to postpone my duties and then perhaps it will be possible for me

6 to stay on.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You asked for that. You have got no answer

8 yet?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't received an answer yet. I

10 was told that I would receive an answer in the course of the break. I

11 don't know if there's going to be a break now or not though.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break, and we'll hope that you get a

13 positive answer for us. But let's just wait and see.

14 We'll adjourn until ten minutes to 1.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, on the 25th of February, page

18 20.173, I indicated that two hours was granted. So I made a mistake

19 before the break. And as always, the joint position of the parties is the

20 right one.

21 Ms. Radovanovic, may I first ask you whether you received an

22 answer to your question.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. Because of the tragedy

24 that has struck our country, the prime minister was killed, everything has

25 been postponed, everything has been put on hold, so I can stay on, I can

Page 21325

1 be present here tomorrow and on Monday too.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your cooperation. Of

3 course the circumstances are sad enough, that cause that you are

4 available, but nevertheless the Chamber appreciates that you still will be

5 available.

6 Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Thank you for what you said.

9 Q. Doctor, I would like to go back to your report. And I'm

10 particularly interested in page 43 in the English version, the first

11 paragraph of the English version, and I'll provide you with the reference

12 for the Serb -- for the Serbian version immediately. It's towards the

13 end. I'll guide you. Doctor, at a certain point you mentioned the fact

14 that it was impossible to understand how Mrs. Tabeau's calculations had

15 been made, her calculations with regard to the number of Muslims who

16 allegedly died. It's page 25 in the Serbian version.

17 A. 25? Which paragraph is it?

18 Q. It's the third paragraph, if you look at it carefully. It starts

19 with the words "U drugom," that is to say, "in the second." Have you

20 found the paragraph?

21 A. Yes, I have. Am I to comment on this?

22 Q. Yes, please do.

23 A. Well, I really didn't understand what the author wanted to say. I

24 can read it out. It says, "In the second step the authors apply real

25 distribution of the killed and to those who died from natural causes, to

Page 21326

1 the overall population covered by the PDS 1994 census. And I quote, "In

2 order to divide the calculated number of the estimated total number of

3 Muslims who died into those who were killed and those who died of natural

4 causes." This mean that is we should first calculate the proportion of

5 those killed within the entire population from the household census of

6 1994 and then we should multiply this by a factor in order to calculate

7 the number of -- the estimated number of all Muslims. Since not a single

8 figure is included, no information -- no piece of information is included,

9 this formulation, this way of putting it, is totally unclear to me.

10 Naturally, I could tell you what I think the writers of the report were

11 thinking about, but I don't think that this would be a serious way to

12 proceed. I can't get involved in guesswork.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Just one matter. In the Serbian version,

14 page 46, you make a reference; is that correct?

15 A. I don't have the Serbian version. I don't have page 46 in the

16 Serbian version. It's page 24 or 25.

17 Q. After the word "Muslims."

18 A. Do you mean the second paragraph, the next paragraph?

19 Q. The reference, where it says "Ibid" on page 46.

20 A. Yes. I said I'm quoting. That is from the text they found in the

21 record. And that's on page 46.

22 Q. Because in the English version it says "Ibid," page 4. I just

23 wanted to point this out in order to verify this matter.

24 Doctor, I would now like to ask you a series of questions that

25 concern the issue of snipers. In the census document, did you see a

Page 21327

1 methodological indication of any kind that would have made it possible to

2 distinguish, for example, a shot fired by a sniper from a shot fired from

3 some other weapon?

4 A. In the document that I had, in the report written by Mrs. Tabeau,

5 there is not a single methodological explanation, but I had the

6 opportunity to have reviewing another document which also deals with --

7 Q. Just a minute, please. Can you tell us what the other or other

8 documents are that you consulted with regard to the issue of sniping in

9 Sarajevo.

10 A. Well, just a minute, please.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the

12 meantime, with the assistance of the usher, I would like to hand out a

13 document which I think will be numbered 1928, and similarly I'd like to

14 hand out another document, 1927 is the number of the second document. And

15 there will probably be a third document. And we will be told what the

16 number of this document is later.

17 Q. Doctor, the documents that you have will be provided to you in the

18 English version. And my first question is as follows: Have you seen

19 these documents translated into the Serbian language? And I'm referring

20 to document 1928, first of all.

21 A. Yes, I've seen this document.

22 Q. Doctor, what is the document that you are looking at? You went

23 through a document. I want to check this.

24 A. I'm looking at a document which says "Review of those who have

25 been killed and wounded so far as a result of sniper activity from the

Page 21328

1 10th of September, 1992 until the 10th of August, 1994 in the city of

2 Sarajevo." It's been introduced here under number 0098 --

3 Q. Could I see the document that you have in front of you. I just

4 want to check. Thank you.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's just a

6 page that we would like to copy later on. So I'll ask the expert about

7 this. This is the page concerned. It's a page that wasn't in the document

8 that we provided, but there is just the title which is on this page, which

9 is numbered 1928.

10 MR. STAMP: I --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Madam, could you put the first

12 page on the ELMO, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp. I think the document would be put on the

14 ELMO, would that --

15 MR. STAMP: If there are no copies. If there are no copies, we'll

16 have to work with that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, could you read what it says? It's page 00986275. Could

20 you read it out aloud so that it can be translated and entered into the

21 transcript.

22 A. "Review of those who have been identified, the civilians who were

23 killed and wounded as a result of sniper activity in the period 10

24 September 1992 until 10 August 1994 in the city of Sarajevo."

25 Q. Thank you very much. And let's do the same thing for the next

Page 21329

1 page in the report, the second page. Just the title. And could we see

2 the ERN number, please. Thank you. The number is 0 -- it's 76 at the

3 end. Could you read the first four lines, please, from "sniper."

4 A. "Sniper, from the 10th of September 1992 until the 10th of August

5 1994. 870 cases of sniper activity directed at civilian targets in

6 Sarajevo in the period 10 September 1992 until the 10th of August 1994."

7 Q. Please carry on, the following title.

8 A. "Consequences -- results. Total killed, 361, of which men, 218;

9 women, 110; children, 33. The total number of wounded, 758."

10 Could you please put it up a bit.

11 "Of whom: Men, 513; women, 168; and children, 75."

12 Q. Doctor, just one thing. I can see some handwritten parts, and I

13 can see that some things have been circled. Whose hand is it? Whose

14 handwriting is it?

15 A. Well, I did that. Unfortunately, I often scribble on documents.

16 Q. Very well. Doctor, in this entire list that we have as an annex,

17 what can you tell us in general, and then in relation to the figure that

18 is you provide in your report.

19 A. I saw this document in December or January - I'm not sure

20 exactly - and when I was writing this report, I was wondering why this

21 document wasn't used as a source of information because in my opinion it's

22 a far more reliable source than the population census or the Bakija source

23 or the MAG source, the association of Muslims against genocide. And why

24 is this my opinion? Because this document is based on facts which were

25 determined by certain organs, either medical institutions or the police,

Page 21330

1 et cetera. And many of the cases contain explanations as to where and

2 what happened, a record of the -- from the site, a letter of discharge

3 from hospital -- certificates from hospitals, or a statement that was

4 signed by the person who was wounded. This document provides various

5 kinds of information about the number who were killed or wounded by

6 snipers. The information is different from that that I came across in the

7 Tabeau report, in tables 3 and 6 of the Serbian translation of her expert

8 report, which is where she categorised the various causes and she said

9 that 619 people were killed by sniper fire and 3.111 were wounded. In

10 this document, it says that the number of killed was 361 and 756 people

11 were wounded. I also have to say that this document that we are

12 discussing right now is illogical in one respect, and that is because 207

13 cases are mentioned with regard to an unknown -- unidentified location

14 where the persons were wounded but not in the sense of the total number of

15 people but in cases where something was recorded -- this refers to place

16 where something was recorded but place where the person was wounded is

17 unknown. This seems to be absurd to me because if a person is wounded, he

18 should probably know where he was wounded. And because of such

19 imprecision, well, one can draw certain conclusions. I'm not going to

20 address the matter as to whether this is correct or not, but it could be

21 that the person wasn't wounded in Sarajevo at all. It could be that the

22 person was a member of the military, a soldier, not a civilian.

23 I'd also like to point out that the number of unknown locations is

24 not identical to the number of those killed or wounded. For example, if

25 you make the relevant calculations, there are 207 unknown places where

Page 21331

1 people were wounded, but in the columns when they mentioned people who

2 were wounded then you can arrive at the figure of 457 people.

3 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I was trying to read certain information. Is

4 this what you are referring to, these sources when you deal with the

5 subject of figures in your report? On page 19 in the English version,

6 which corresponds to -- which has a different page in the Serbian version,

7 and at that point you point out that half of the cases are not explicit.

8 On page 19 of the English version - and I'll provide you with the

9 reference for the Serbian version - you mention the fact that there is a

10 significant number of places that are unidentified, both with regard to

11 people killed and with regard to people wounded.

12 A. Could you please provide me with the reference -- the page in the

13 Serbian text because I haven't understood your question quite well.

14 Q. It is page 11, if you please. More precisely, in the Serbian text

15 which I now have in front of me, it's paragraph 1, in fact the first

16 paragraph after the end of the middle -- in fact, the third third of the

17 first paragraph, the sentence beginning with a number six times higher for

18 the wounded.

19 A. Yes. I can see that.

20 Q. So in this part here, just above what I quoted, this discrepancy,

21 is it these documents that you used as a basis?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. And now, Doctor, I would like us to examine the

24 document number 1927, and we could even put it on the overhead projector,

25 having before us at the same time the Serbian version. Page 6, which is

Page 21332

1 strangely enough the second page, ERN number 00982902.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: 00982902. And this page could be put on the

3 overhead projector with the assistance of the usher, if she finds it.

4 There is also document 1928 -- sorry, 27.

5 I believe, Madam Usher, that this document begins with --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... The bundle, I

7 think. Yes, there we are.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. Madam Usher,

9 would you take the second page from the bundle.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we just

11 reviewed and received comments on a document of which I've got no idea

12 where it comes from, what it is. It seems to be contradicting other

13 documents. It seems not to be logical in every respect. But I would

14 first like to know what it is, who made it, what the sources were, whether

15 systematically reviewed these sources or -- I've got no idea, apart from

16 that the expert witness came across this document.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It's a

18 question that we could deal with very soon. What is curious is that this

19 document was given us by the Prosecution themselves because they all bear

20 ERN numbers. And what we know for sure is that they emanate from the

21 circles of Sarajevo. And what circles, as usual the Prosecution

22 doesn't --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I take it that if you

24 want to use these documents, that you have made yourself acquainted with

25 the -- what the document is, from where it comes because it would prevent

Page 21333

1 you being surprised later on that to say that this is paper used in

2 kindergarten or something. I mean, I take it this wherever it comes from,

3 if it's provided by the Prosecution, that you nevertheless when you use it

4 are able to elicit from the expert witness who came across this document

5 what it is, who made it. What is it?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Quite

7 simply, one observation: The witness said just a moment ago that with

8 regard to this census she doesn't even know which institution handled it.

9 We don't know who carried out the census. I will look this up and come

10 back to you with my answer after I consult with Mrs. Pilipovic and look it

11 up.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... The question

13 in respect of this document or to the other document, of course, is in the

14 air approximately if we do not know what this is.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Microphone not activated]

17 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm just -- well, to understand questions and to

18 understand answers, we should first of all know what we're looking at.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am now focussed

20 on other things, and I would have to go through the entire volume of this

21 document to decide exactly what answer I should give you. I'll do this in

22 a moment. But all I know is that this document comes from the Sarajevan

23 side. My colleague will assist me, and I'll be able to give you an answer

24 very soon.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You can continue. Perhaps we would know then

Page 21334

1 from this next document what it is. And I am rather surprised that when

2 you put questions to the witness -- and I take it, then, that you know

3 what this document is. Or don't you know either? Since you explained to

4 us that it seems to be a more reliable source than other sources. Then at

5 least one would expect that you know what it is.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You would have to define -- I

7 know -- I got this document registered under a certain number, and I

8 suppose that it comes from this Tribunal. The document bears this title,

9 has a Table of Contents, and all this information. If you mean do I know

10 who made it, who drafted it, I don't know.

11 JUDGE ORIE: On the basis of what? You don't know?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of what? I'm sorry, I

13 don't understand your question, sir. On the basis of what this document

14 was developed or ...?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know on the basis of what it was

17 developed. It was developed based on records, reports, and it says

18 exactly who submitted these records. I don't know who did this. What I

19 don't know is on the -- you have data from emergency services, from

20 medical records, from the record of incidents --

21 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please. I do understand that this

22 document contains information as to the source of the information

23 contained in it, but the way this information was obtained, whether this

24 was a systematic flow of information from those sources or that it was

25 incidental -- incidentally obtained information. Do you know anything

Page 21335

1 about that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know the document as a whole. I

3 know in systematic terms, in view of the source. But if you are asking me

4 who put these individual incidents together to make this report, I don't

5 know that. I received it as a list, as a document which is in the

6 possession of the Tribunal in The Hague, and I thought that it was well

7 known who and why drafted it. I didn't go into its provenance, who and

8 why made it. I just reviewed it from the point of view whether it was

9 authentic and valid as a source of statistical data. In my opinion, it is

10 more valid than the census. Why? Because there is underlying

11 documentation. If it says here the person that provided the data --

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... To put all

13 the questions to you. The only thing I would like to know is whether you

14 have any information as to whether this completely covers the sources

15 mentioned or not, whether you verified that. It says in the first column

16 "source." Does this completely cover what is contained in the sources

17 mentioned? Did you verify that or didn't you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I had occasion to see is this

19 big a pile of documentation which contain by name and surname all the

20 incidents that happened, and I looked up randomly certain years.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't --

23 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether you verified whether the

24 sources mentioned in the first column were completely covered by this

25 compilation or not and whether you verified that. That's my only

Page 21336

1 question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I verified insofar as it is

3 official. It bears a seal. In some cases there are even death

4 certificates. In that sense, I did verify. If I understood you

5 correctly. And as to whether I individually verified, then that I did not

6 do.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I -- I do understand that you verified whether there

8 was a document underlying the entry in this survey. Did you also verify

9 whether there were any similar documents in -- for example, the institute

10 of statistics or the book of SJB - I don't know what it is but - or ZHMP,

11 whether all the information from the ZHMP or CSB or Institute of

12 Statistics is reflected in this survey. I mean, could there be -- for

13 example, let's just say here four entries of the 10th of September, 1992.

14 Did you check in the book of events of the SJB which gives us two entries

15 in this survey, whether there might be a third or a fourth or -- that does

16 not appear in the survey.

17 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]

18 JUDGE ORIE: You are nodding, and nodding does not appear in the

19 transcript. So you did that.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand, I understand.

21 But these sources are not accessible to me. The book of events are is not

22 available to me. The record of events --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. There might be very good reasons

24 not to have verified. My first question is whether you did verify. Do I

25 take it from your answer that you are not able to verify that?

Page 21337

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in a position to verify

2 that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it's impossible.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's a clear answer. But I'm asking you, of

6 course, these questions because you referred to this survey as a far more

7 reliable source as the other sources you criticised, and I've got no

8 problem in criticising sources but I just wanted to verify to what extent

9 the completeness of this survey was verified by you.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. You

12 are --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please possibly --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In order to provide an answer

15 to one of the questions you asked, Mr. President, we see on page 1, that

16 is, the first page of document 1928, the ERN number which identifies it.

17 And in the left bottom corner we see that it is an emergency centre,

18 emergency medical centre, and the police station of Sarajevo. It seems

19 that this data here is matched with one part of the --

20 MR. STAMP: Can I just interrupt --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The list of information --

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Are you

23 interpreting what you read on this document, or are you -- do you have

24 knowledge or --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I am

Page 21338

1 trying to give you an answer. You asked what type of document is this.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I can read a document and I can guess what it means.

3 If you would know where it comes from, who compiled it, whether these

4 sources were covered completely, I'd like to know. But if you are taking

5 me to the document itself and are interpreting for the Chamber what could

6 mean what is on the bottom of the page, I think it would not assist that

7 much because the Chamber would be able to do that. Yes.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed. But sometimes we can

9 forget a detail that doesn't strike us immediately. It happens to all of

10 us. It certainly does happen to the Defence. But to know who is the

11 author of this document and how the document was developed, the Defence

12 cannot know this because this document comes from the Prosecution and only

13 they can give us an answer, as they should do indeed now.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a clue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you don't

15 know something and if someone else does know, the ordinary way of

16 proceeding if you would like to know is to ask the one who knows. But I

17 then take it that you have not enquired into what this document is.

18 I don't know, Mr. Stamp, whether you could help us out in one way

19 or another.

20 MR. STAMP: The document and some others in the batch form part

21 of -- I should say -- well, let me be very clear. We received from

22 authorities in Sarajevo, not all of them official, a variety of documents,

23 some of which for a variety of reasons are determined to be reliable.

24 There are some things which perhaps ought not to be said in the presence

25 of the witness. However -- however, they -- it is for the party who seeks

Page 21339

1 to use a document to satisfy themselves, prior to using it, as to the

2 provenance of a document and the methodology in which it is prepared.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's -- we'll not finish anyhow today.

4 Could we perhaps leave this -- these documents for the time being.

5 If you have any other questions to put to the witness, and although you

6 would have left only five minutes at the next -- the next sitting day,

7 that you try to find out what documents are used to draw conclusions of,

8 so that it's -- yes.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very gladly, Mr. President,

10 with the proviso to say that I want to continue this exercise, namely to

11 look at not only this exhibit but the next exhibit, 1927.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So we still have on the

14 monitor page 2. And in order to identify the document, I asked whether

15 the witness was able to read apart from the word "Sarajevo" in the two

16 script, Cyrillic and Latin, if the witness is able to read the edge of the

17 stamp, which could enable us to identify this stamp with certainty.

18 A. This is very illegible. I do see "Sarajevo" written in both the

19 Cyrillic and Latinic scripts, but I can't see the rest.

20 Q. Very well. Will you look at the first page of the document, where

21 we see the word "proof." And we have some information on the provenance.

22 Will you please read this out loud.

23 A. "Proof. Excerpt from the book of protocols of the Institute for

24 Urgent Medical Assistance Sarajevo, in the name of wounded persons."

25 Q. Tell us, can you identify this stamp. If you are not able to do

Page 21340

1 so, please feel free to say you can't.

2 A. It's a very bad copy.

3 Q. Thank you. But now, will you --

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Sorry, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Maybe the

5 witness -- maybe the witness should look at the document. I don't know

6 whether you are looking at the document itself or the screen.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,

8 Judge Nieto-Navia.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document in the original, in the

10 facsimile, rather, is also illegible.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

12 usher, may I refer you to page 5 of this document, number 54 is the

13 end -- are the end digits of the ERN number.

14 Thank you. This is it.

15 Q. Kindly read the heading in the upper left corner.

16 A. "Salim Satara [phoen], employee of the police. SJB, Public

17 Security Station Novi Grad, Sarajevo. First police station Sarajevo,

18 number 19/13-1. Date, 22nd January 1996. Addressed to first police

19 station, Public Security Station, Novi Grad, Sarajevo."

20 Q. Then kindly take the next page and look at document ending with

21 digits 55. We will do the same thing, that is, read the heading. Thank

22 you.

23 A. "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Ministry of the Interior.

24 Security services centre, Sarajevo. Date, 23rd September 1992. Official

25 record," and then comes the handwritten number "17-1/02-738/92."

Page 21341

1 Q. Thank you very much. And the last thing I would ask of you. I

2 don't know if you will be able to read this, but I would nonetheless like

3 us to see it. Page 00982987.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will need your assistance,

5 Madam Usher. Several pages later -- 967.

6 [In English] 976 at the end of the document. [Interpretation]

7 That's it. Thank you.

8 Q. Witness, do you have it? There is a stamp which seems to be

9 always the same. Can you decipher what we see? Most of all, the stamp

10 and are you able to read it?

11 A. I would appreciate it if you would let me take it. I can't see it

12 on the screen. If you gave me a magnifying glass, I would be able to read

13 it because it is legible, but with my vision I can't do it without a

14 magnifying glass. "Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, medical

15 centre Sarajevo." Then comes "very short shrift" in the third line.

16 Q. Could it be "institute of medicine of the University of Sarajevo"?

17 A. "University institute of medicine, Sarajevo" yes, that could be

18 it.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we are

21 now waiting for your instructions.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have enquired into the possibility of sitting

23 tomorrow. That creates a lot of uncertainties and would cause the court

24 maintenance to take place on Monday, which in the worst case scenario

25 would even bring us to Tuesday to conclude. Therefore, we'd like to

Page 21342

1 continue next Monday, as scheduled, and that is the afternoon session, as

2 far as I'm aware of for next Monday, quarter past 2.00.

3 Ms. Pilipovic, you have --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if this

5 is the right time for me to ask about the schedule for next week, since we

6 are working on Monday. I had planned to leave tomorrow, so I need this

7 information. And General Galic is receiving his family tomorrow. And we

8 would just like to know what the schedule would be for next week.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is a very good reason not to sit tomorrow,

10 when you receive your family visit tomorrow, General Galic.

11 I think we are scheduled next week for the afternoon, aren't we?

12 Yes. That would mean that we'd continue next Monday. And looking at the

13 clock, that we would conclude with the evidence of this witness, which is,

14 as I understand, the last witness, apart from a still pending issue, that

15 is, you asked for a subpoena of the witnesses MacKenzie and Nambiar. A

16 decision will be taken on that.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: I still have to sign that decision, but --

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, Mr. President,

21 just to notify the Chamber that we wouldn't have much more for Monday. We

22 only have a couple of more questions concerning this document and we will

23 be finished.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to allow all sides to

Page 21343

1 make arrangements and organise themselves.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you enquire over the weekend

3 with those who provided these documents, that you can put questions or at

4 least inform the Chamber what we are talking about. And of course you

5 might have understood that especially the completeness of the information

6 contained therein might be of some importance for the Chamber.

7 Mr. Stamp.

8 MR. STAMP: On that point, I had deliberately refrained from

9 commenting while -- during the examination of the witness present.

10 Perhaps I could do so now having closed taking evidence from the witness

11 for the day.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the day. But of course not on this

13 subject.

14 MR. STAMP: On ...?

15 JUDGE ORIE: On the subject of this document.

16 MR. STAMP: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: There might be further questions, but I'm uncertain

18 about it because it seems to be the case that Mr. Piletta-Zanin and

19 Ms. Pilipovic are not fully aware of what the exact source and what the

20 methods are. Perhaps we could do that, then, perhaps to start with on

21 next Monday. Is that -- would that be --

22 MR. STAMP: Well, may I just indicate that --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What we could do is we could first ask the

24 expert witness to leave the courtroom and invite her to come back next

25 Monday at quarter past 2.00, and we'll sit in this same courtroom.

Page 21344

1 And may I instruct you not to speak with anyone, either with the

2 parties nor with whoever you meet, about the testimony you have given and

3 you're still about to give. Yes? Thank you. Then we'd like to see you

4 back next Monday.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, if you could briefly --

7 MR. STAMP: Very briefly. Because of time constraint, I had

8 restrained to objecting to what the Defence is doing with these documents.

9 A cursory examination of these documents would indicate that they appear

10 to be a mix of different documents from different areas and which the

11 witness apparently cannot identify. It is for the Defence, it is my

12 submission, to put the documents in a particular -- or to organise the

13 documents and to use only those documents which the witness can speak to.

14 We can, and if they had asked we would have given them whatever

15 information we had in respect to the source, although it should be

16 understood now that the source can be interpreted in two ways. Source can

17 be the persons that handed batches of documents to us. The particular

18 authors, the system of retrieval or whatever information might mean a

19 variety of documents. If that is the source we might not in all cases be

20 able to provide that information.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. If the Defence would try to

22 get as much information so that the Chamber would know, at least, what

23 documents we are talking about.

24 Apart from that, I noticed that in the second bundle that there

25 are quite some documents without translation and a few lines were read by

Page 21345

1 the expert witness. But I do not see among these documents translations.

2 And for the Chamber to understand the documents, we would need

3 translations.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to.

5 Mr. President, I will quote you in saying that parties are always

6 right when they agree. I want to say that we have the weekend in front of

7 us and the Prosecution suggested to quote to me all the sources. They

8 should do so this weekend so that I can give you all the necessary

9 information on Monday, so that everything is clear.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just -- let's just make one thing clear,

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin: As a result of the disclosure obligations, I take it

12 these documents were provided to you. You used them while examining this

13 expert witness without knowing even what they were about. The expert

14 witness draws conclusions on the basis of these documents, neither knowing

15 how they were compiled, et cetera, et cetera. I think it's not fair that

16 where the Prosecution offered to assist as good as they could but not be

17 in a position perhaps to answer every single question -- and I can imagine

18 that they did not concentrate on that very much because they did not use

19 this document as evidence. You cannot now just order the Prosecution to

20 provide you with all this information where you have not asked it

21 before -- ask it before to be provided this information. I would say that

22 it is a fair offer that the Prosecution assists you and I think it would

23 be wise to accept that offer and see that we can make the best out of it.

24 I think that's the position of the parties at this moment in this

25 respect.

Page 21346

1 Then I have one other issue I would like to deal with.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But Judge Nieto-Navia first has a question.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 I have a question for Mr. Stamp: You were saying that sometimes

6 the Prosecutor analysed the documents and just to look whether they are or

7 not reliable. You said that.

8 MR. STAMP: Yes, we do.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. So my question is: Does the Prosecutor

10 consider these documents to be reliable?

11 MR. STAMP: The problem is what are these documents? There are

12 many different documents from different sources in these batches, which is

13 why I wanted to indicate that whatever the Defence wants to ask about

14 sources they should separate the documents and put them in the batches.

15 Some documents --

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry, but when the Prosecutor --

17 MR. STAMP: Yes.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: -- Discloses a document, it's because it

19 considers that it's reliable or any document?

20 MR. STAMP: Any -- because this is a case involving reciprocal

21 disclosure.

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. Thank you.

23 MR. STAMP: Any document that is relevant in Sarajevo from that

24 period is disclosed.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

Page 21347

1 JUDGE ORIE: We have to stop.

2 Quickly, I have one issue left: Ms. Radovanovic is the last

3 witness left. The Defence can expect a decision on the subpoena which

4 denies the motion. The Chamber has tried to do our utmost best to make

5 all witnesses appear in this court. At least you should expect that the

6 subpoenas will not be granted. That means that this is the last witness

7 of the Defence case, when I understand the decision of the Prosecution

8 well -- of the Defence well.

9 We, as a matter of fact, Mr. Stamp, intended to continue as

10 quickly as possible with rebuttal evidence. Since I do not expect that

11 the assumption on which this ruling is based. Since we do not expect more

12 factual or important factual information to receive through this witness

13 which will be examined only for another 15 or 20 minutes, the Chamber

14 would very much like you to file the rebuttal evidence by the end of this

15 week.

16 MR. STAMP: By the end of next week.

17 JUDGE ORIE: This week.

18 MR. STAMP: That is, by tomorrow?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's by tomorrow. Because we would have

20 expected to finish today with this last witness.

21 MR. STAMP: Very well.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And one of the reasons why the Prosecution did not

23 want to file it earlier is to reserve the rights. You never know what

24 happens. Well, the only thing that could still happen now is another 20

25 minutes of evidence of Ms. Radovanovic. And on the basis of this

Page 21348

1 assumption - if it would be a wrong assumption then I'd like to be

2 informed - but on the basis of this assumption, the Prosecution is

3 expected to do what it had done anyhow if the course of events this week

4 would have been more smoothly, as it -- as it went, there were

5 some -- well, there were some events during the course of the trial that

6 could not be expected, some issues we dealt with in private session. If

7 they would have not been there, we might have been able to finish by today

8 and then the Prosecution would have been under an obligation to file

9 immediately after the close of the Defence case why they suggest as

10 rebuttal evidence. Therefore, being to some extent due also to these

11 procedural incidents, the Chamber expects you to file what you would have

12 filed if we would have closed today and do that by the end of tomorrow.

13 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Mr. President. We are guided by that.

14 We will comply and file by tomorrow. If I could ask subject to the

15 availability of translations, official translations of some material --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please indicate -- please indicate clearly --

17 MR. STAMP: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- Where a translation is missing or then perhaps --

19 so that at least the Defence can prepare for taking a position in respect

20 of rebuttal evidence so that we don't have to start only in the middle of

21 next week but that we are prepared to continue as quickly as possible next

22 week.

23 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other procedural issue? I hope not,

25 because we really should leave the courtroom now, as soon as possible.

Page 21349

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until next Monday at quarter

3 past 2.00, but not after having thanked both technical assistants and

4 interpreters for their patience and flexibility and of course not in the

5 last case our registrar.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

7 at 2.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

8 the 17th day of March, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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