Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 832

1 Monday, 7 April 2008.

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, to everyone. Madam Registrar, would

6 you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante

8 Gotovina et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think we now have English on channel 4 again as it

10 should be.

11 Before an opportunity will be given to the Prosecution to call

12 its next witness, there's one outstanding matter. That is that the

13 Prosecution has sought protective measures. There were objections from

14 the Defence side.

15 Mr. Margetts, I do understand from this weekend that you asked to

16 be given an opportunity to make further oral submissions on the matter.

17 I also understand from e-mail exchange which was copied to Mr. Nielsen,

18 our team leader, that the Defence then insisted on knowing what you'd

19 like to raise, that you answered to that, and you just pointed briefly at

20 the issues you'd like to address.

21 The Chamber has decided on the basis of what we've seen to give

22 you an opportunity to make further submissions on these matters. That

23 also means that we go into private session.

24 [Private session]

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Page 876

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25 [Open session]

Page 877

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

3 Mr. Margetts.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, prior to the commencement of the

5 examination of the witness, there may be a preliminary matter in regards

6 to the objections raised about the status of this witness, and before I

7 go into the substance of that or how that may be received or when it may

8 be received by the Trial Chamber, I'd just like to say we've had

9 discussions with the Cermak Defence and there seems to have been a

10 misunderstanding between the parties. And whilst certain ways of dealing

11 with this issue are discussed, the Cermak Defence did keep this issue

12 live and quite rightly made their submissions this morning.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore this is a witness, not an expert

14 witness, and that certainly poses some limitations on the questions that

15 could be put to him. The Chamber of course noticed having received the

16 92 ter statements that sometimes in those 92 ter statements also some

17 explanations are given that's perfectly unclear on the basis of what

18 these explanations are given, on the basis of what knowledge, on the

19 basis of what experience. If this would be a jury trial I would be very

20 concerned about it, but of course it's so obvious that if someone says,

21 "The shells fell everywhere, it did not seem that they had certain

22 targets," that of course without any further explanation of where the

23 witness got that knowledge from, what he knows about how long he did

24 observe that. I mean, is of course not something to be given much weight

25 apart from that this is what the witness thought and of course he can

Page 878

1 testify on what these thoughts are. Whether this will assist the Chamber

2 in any way to make any determinations is a totally different matter.

3 Mr. Margetts.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Your Honour, I'd

5 like to present the pseudonym sheet to the witness. This is 65 ter

6 number 4810. And if that could be given a number under seal.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P15 under

9 seal.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Could it be shown to

11 the witness. You want to use a hard copy or have you prepared for

12 presenting to him, and to him alone and not the public in e-court. I saw

13 for a second the B/C/S version on my screen but it has disappeared again.

14 There we are. Yes, this not to be shown to the public.

15 Examination by Mr. Margetts:

16 Q. Witness, could you look at the screen in front of you. Do you

17 see your name and your personal details on that sheet before you?

18 A. Yes, I do. It is fine.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could that --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Then, Witness 6, before we

21 continue, may I remind you that during the closed session you gave a

22 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

23 nothing but the truth. Of course we are now starting to hear your

24 testimony, and this solemn declaration still binds you.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

Page 879


2 Q. Witness, did you give a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

3 on the 21st of February, 2007?

4 A. I did.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could the witness be provided -- or

6 could the 65 ter number 4772 be presented on the screen, and that will be

7 under seal, so not presented to the public. And, Your Honour, if that

8 could also be given an exhibit number.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P16, marked

11 for identification.


13 Q. Witness, on the screen do you see the first page of that witness

14 statement that you gave?

15 A. I do.

16 MR. MARGETTS: Now, Your Honour, if the second and subsequent

17 pages could be shown on the screen that would be of assistance.

18 Q. Witness, we're just going to run through each of the pages, and

19 as we do that could you please observe the screen and be sure that this

20 is the statement that you provided.

21 MR. MARGETTS: If we could go to the next page. And to the

22 subsequent page. To page 6. And to the last three pages.

23 Q. Witness, is that the statement that you gave to the

24 representatives of the OTP on the 21st of February, 2007?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 880

1 Q. Did you -- did you review a B/C/S translation of this statement

2 yesterday?

3 A. I did. It corresponds to what I had said.

4 Q. The statement corresponds to what you said. Does it accurately

5 reflect the content of the statement that you gave?

6 A. It accurately reflects the contents.

7 Q. Would you give the same statement today if you were asked the

8 same questions?

9 A. I would give the same statement.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness.

11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, in addition to this statement we've

12 prepared a redacted version of the statement and its translation, and

13 we've provided that to the Defence this morning. I don't know whether

14 the Defence have had and opportunity to review it. It doesn't look like

15 it from the indications I'm receiving. However --

16 JUDGE ORIE: I take it it was mainly redacted for purposes of

17 safeguarding pseudonym.

18 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So then if it's just a matter of what's to be shown

20 to the public and not in respect to the content of the statement.

21 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then therefore at this moment it seem not to be

23 something we should deal with immediately. So take your time to read it

24 and see whether anything is redacted which should not be redacted.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

Page 881

1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could the statement be entered into

2 evidence under seal.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Are there objections? No objections. Nevertheless,

4 Mr. Margetts, again it seems to be very complicated to -- to get the

5 right order under 92 ter. No, it's -- yes. One of the logical questions

6 is not only whether the witness -- whether the statement reflects what he

7 said and whether he would give the same answers, but also whether it is,

8 as far as the witness is concerned, fully in accordance with the truth,

9 because if it would not be, and that's perhaps one of the weak things in

10 the Rule 92 ter, just imagine that the statement was not in accordance

11 with the truth. You would get a positive answer to all these questions,

12 and that's certainly what -- not what Rule 92 ter is aiming at.

13 May I take it that where you said it accurately reflected what it

14 said that when giving this statement you gave this statement in full

15 accordance with the truth? Yes, Witness 6, could you --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. It

17 corresponds -- or it is in accordance with the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections it can be admitted

19 into evidence. Madam Registrar it will therefore then be Exhibit P16.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, we were reminded that difference

21 between the former 89(F) procedure and this 92 ter procedure, and we were

22 wondering whether the answer viva voce that it accorded with the truth

23 was made up for by the content of the witness acknowledgement in the

24 statement that declares that it is true to the best of the knowledge and

25 recollection.

Page 882

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say it's included written in the

2 statement.


4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, may I proceed with an oral summary of

6 the statement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether we have explained already to

8 the parties what the purpose of the oral summary is. It's just to inform

9 the public about what's in the statement so that the public is aware of

10 what the questions seeking clarification, et cetera, are about.

11 Yes, Mr. Margetts. I take it it's not more than one A4?

12 MR. MARGETTS: It's far less. It's one paragraph, Your Honour.

13 And it in fact it corresponds with the content of the 92 ter filing for

14 the parties' information.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, now a summary will be read of what is in

16 your statement and then some additional questions may be put to you.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

18 MR. MARGETTS: Witness 6 was present in Knin on the morning of

19 the 4th August 1995. Early in the morning on the 4th of August, 1995, an

20 artillery attack commenced. The witness's apartment building and the

21 neighbouring apartment building were struck by shells. The witness,

22 together with his neighbours, fled to his basement for shelter.

23 At around noon when there was a pause in the shelling, the

24 witness left the basement and fled Knin. During the course of his flight

25 from Knin, he observed buildings hit by shells, some houses on fire, and

Page 883

1 visibly distressed people running between buildings.

2 The witness drove to his family home located in a village some

3 distance from Knin and tried to persuade his parents to leave. They

4 refused to leave with him in the early evening, but by midnight everyone

5 had left and they relented, joining the convoy and proceeding to

6 Belgrade.

7 That concludes the summary of the written evidence, Your Honour,

8 and I'd like to present the next exhibit to the witness, and that is the

9 aerial photograph of Knin. Now, Your Honours will have received a

10 marked-up copy of that aerial photograph. In order to save time in

11 court, we presented this aerial photograph to the witness yesterday, and

12 he indicated various locations on that photograph, marking those

13 locations with the letters A to F.

14 I'd like to deal with the first series of letters, and they

15 are --

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think a number should be given to this document.

17 Madam Registrar, photograph marked by witness outside court.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P17 marked

19 for identification.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, should be under seal?

21 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, under seal.

23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE ORIE: If this -- I take it the main reason for this --

25 well, I don't know what -- let me just -- yes. Please proceed.

Page 884

1 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. So we'll deal with the

2 letters that are marked A to D, and then we'll deal with the subsequent

3 letters, if we may, after we've had the opportunity to view the video

4 which will be presented.

5 Your Honour, we don't have this in e-court since it was only

6 marked up yesterday, and so if a copy of the exhibit could be placed on

7 the ELMO for the witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you assist us.

9 Mr. Margetts, whenever you're about to choose colours again in

10 marking photographs, choose such colours that give a great contrast. I

11 have great difficulties in -- to distinguishing the purple from the red.

12 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, noted.

13 Your Honour, of course that cannot be broadcast to the public,

14 being under seal.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, it should not. It isn't. Please proceed. Is

16 there anyway, because are we now -- well, the witness will explain, I

17 take it on the basis of your description and we have the photograph in

18 front of us.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. If you could refer to the

20 letters A to D, Your Honour, we'll address those letters and the

21 locations they depict.



24 Q. Witness, can you see the markings on the aerial photograph, and

25 can you please tell the Court what each of the markings A through to D

Page 885

1 depict?

2 A. The letter A marks the spot or the building that I used to live

3 in before the Storm operation. This is where my apartment in Knin was.

4 Should I go on in alphabetical order?

5 Q. Yes, Witness, if you could.

6 A. Because here you have certain places marked according to the

7 footage that we will see later where I recognised certain houses that had

8 been hit. Certain letters correspond to the places I came across between

9 my apartment on the way to the garage and to my cousin's house. These

10 designations depict the path I took that day and certain locations which

11 had been hit by shells. Therefore, I guess you are asking me to

12 designate the locations of houses that were hit and then to depict the

13 path I took that day when moving through Knin. Is that the way you want

14 me to do?

15 Q. Yes, Witness, that's entirely correct, and they are the markings

16 that are on the map. What I'll do for you is I'll just take you through

17 each of the markings specifically in order to assist you. We're going to

18 be looking at this map twice, or this aerial photograph twice. First of

19 all at this stage to identify those locations that you refer to in your

20 statement, and secondly to identify those other locations you referred

21 to.

22 So if you look at the bottom of the Knin castle there at the

23 marking B, can you tell the Trial Chamber what was located there at the

24 bottom of the Knin castle and is marked B?

25 A. With the letter B?

Page 886

1 Q. Yes, with the letter B.

2 A. The letter B marks the spot across the train station in the town,

3 and that was hit by a shell. On the footage that we will see, we'll see

4 that it had been hit by a shell and a building was set on fire.

5 Q. Witness --

6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I'm getting a bit confused. We were

8 provided also with a document saying Index of Locations, and under B it

9 reads area where Witness 6's car was located. That's of course a

10 different story from what we hear now.

11 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please try to get tight control over --

13 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, your honour. You will see that B and H are

14 in fact in close proximity, so I will ask the witness to --

15 JUDGE ORIE: What we could do is if -- I mean the first four, A,

16 B, C, D is totally unrelated to the footage we'll see. How have you -- I

17 take it that you prepared this together with the witness, why not -- I

18 take it that there's no objection against leading in this respect for the

19 first four locations. No problem, so please let's try to be efficient.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness, you've identified -- yes. Witness, I'll ask you a

22 series of questions and if you could indicate whether the location that I

23 refer to is correctly marked by the letters that I refer to.

24 First of all, letter A, is that the location of your apartment?

25 A. Yes, it is the location where the building was. The two places I

Page 887

1 saw just now, B and H, it's something I can't make up -- make out on this

2 picture. They are right next to each other. And you are right, B

3 designates the location where the garage is, although you can't determine

4 that precisely on this map. Approximately, however, it is around here.

5 Q. Yes, Witness. In your witness statement you refer to the fact

6 that around noon you left your apartment and you proceeded to the garage

7 where your car was located. Is it -- the designation on the map, B, is

8 that the location where your car was located?

9 A. Yes. The designation is approximately at that spot. That garage

10 is at the foot of the Knin fortress next to a building which is called

11 the pensioners' club in Knin.

12 Q. Very much. Let's move to C. You refer in your statement to the

13 fact that you drove from the location at the foot of the fortress in the

14 direction of your brother's house and that your brother's house was

15 located in the vicinity of the police station. Is the marking C a

16 depiction of the police station?

17 A. Yes. The marking C is placed next to the police station. This

18 is the road down from the fortress through a junction in Knin and across

19 the railway bridge following Knin street up to the police station. That

20 neighbourhood is called Municirja [phoen]. Just below the police station

21 is the place where my brother's house was. This is the location

22 depicted.

23 Q. Yes, Witness. And is the location of your brother's house marked

24 D on this aerial photograph?

25 A. Yes. It is next to the station, the police station.

Page 888

1 Q. Thank you very much for those answers.

2 MR. MARGETTS: If we could just leave the aerial photograph on

3 the ELMO, and we'll be returning to it after we have viewed the video.

4 And that brings me to the video, and if we could have an Exhibit number

5 for 65 ter number 4773 being a segment of the video.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, what number --

7 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P18 marked for

8 identification, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 MR. MARGETTS: And Your Honour, the segment of the video that we

11 wish to broadcast and show to the witness is the segment between counter

12 reference seven minutes and fourteen seconds and the counter references

13 sixteen minutes and six seconds.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do we have -- is it just pictures or I

15 remember that I've seen some kind of a transcript. Is that something

16 you'd like to use or not?

17 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. There is an audio of the video

18 and the audio captures both the sound of the shells falling, and it also

19 includes a commentary, a voiceover, describing what's happening, and we

20 have provided to the parties a transcript and translation of that

21 commentary. However, we do not wish to tender that commentary or that

22 transcript and translations into evidence. Nevertheless, because the

23 sound of the shelling appears on the soundtrack, the commentary and the

24 sound of the shelling is inseparable so we do need the audio also

25 tendered with the images.

Page 889

1 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against this video being played? No

2 objection -- yes.

3 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, at this point I think I'll just make

4 an objection for the record. We don't see that there's a foundation

5 that's been laid for where this video came from and how it's related to

6 this witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, Mr. Margetts, apparently that's

8 at least -- the Chamber was provided with a copy of the transcript. I

9 just had a chance on it, and it sounds a bit euphemistic to say that it

10 describes what happens. It's giving quite a lot of comment as well about

11 the past of the city, how peaceful it was before these events. There's a

12 lot of comment and a lot of -- Mr. Dragan Elcic [phoen] is who, because

13 he apparently plays a role in the production of this video.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. It seems that Mr. Dragan Elcic

15 is the commentator, but we do not wish to submit that commentary.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No, it gives us a clue as to -- comment is one.


18 JUDGE ORIE: But composition of a video, what are the -- what

19 selection is made of course is not irrelevant either. So what

20 broadcasting --

21 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. We had intended for the

22 witness to view the video in court, but I think he's very familiar with

23 the video having viewed it yesterday and will be able to give the

24 information as to the provenance of the video if I --

25 JUDGE ORIE: He knows that all.

Page 890

1 MR. MARGETTS: He knows that, yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then fine. We'll hear from the witness and --

3 MR. MARGETTS: I'll proceed with the questions.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- perhaps you could start with that so that --


6 JUDGE ORIE: -- because I take it that he has seen the video

7 recently.


9 JUDGE ORIE: Then you ask him what he knows about it.


11 Q. Witness, in February 2007 did you provide a DVD copy of a

12 videotape to the Office of the Prosecutor?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. And, Witness, from whom did you obtain the original videotape,

15 and what role did that person have in the production of that video?

16 A. Prior to the Storm operation there were two cameramen of Zastava

17 film from Belgrade in Knin. That morning they were still there. They

18 used to live at the foot of the Knin fortress. They had a camera, and

19 they used it to record all of the events. They also recorded some spots

20 in different parts of the town that had been hit. It is a documentary,

21 and they edited it in Belgrade for a film, documentary film competition.

22 It was used for different purposes, however. It is still very useful

23 because I don't think there were any other cameras in Knin that day save

24 for this one. These were two Zastava Films cameramen from Belgrade.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, can we ask the witness to refrain from

Page 891

1 giving comments like whether it's useful or not, that is that requires a

2 judgement whereas you are invited here to tell us what you have seen and

3 what you have heard.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you.

6 Q. What was the name of the gentleman that handed the video to you?

7 A. The name was Milivoje Nestorovic.

8 Q. Was he a representative of Zastava Films?

9 A. Yes, he was. He was a director.

10 Q. You watched this video yesterday, and did you identify

11 Mr. Nestorovic in any of the video footage?

12 A. Yes. He made several appearances in that footage.

13 Q. And can you describe the clothes that he is wearing?

14 A. He is wearing a military camouflage uniform. He's quite tall.

15 He was staying there. I knew him personally, as I said, because he was

16 around Knin at that time.

17 Q. Did he have a military rank?

18 A. He was a colonel by rank.

19 Q. And did he tell you that he was involved in the production of

20 that footage on the 4th of August, 1995?

21 A. Yes. He said that he was involved. He had a cameraman. He had

22 two men with him. There was a cameraman and he was the director. They

23 were there together, and they made the footage together.

24 Q. When did you receive a copy of the video?

25 A. I can't be very specific. It was sometime after we had fled to

Page 892

1 Belgrade. Perhaps as late as a year after. He produced this footage for

2 the purposes of a documentary show in Belgrade.

3 Q. And having met with the representatives of the Office of the

4 Prosecutor on the 19th of February, 2007, did you procure a DVD copy of

5 this video for presentation to the Office of the Prosecutor and, if so,

6 whom did you procure that copy from?

7 A. Yes. I procured it from that person directly. That's what I

8 kept. But there are sufficient copies to go around in Belgrade because

9 this was something that was shown on RTS on a number of occasions. This

10 is something that the public is generally aware of.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, if you allow one clarifying question.

12 You said that Mr. Nestorovic held a military rank. He was

13 colonel, you said. Now, when he produced that film, was he on duty as a

14 colonel or, I mean, was this company hired by whom to produce this film

15 or was he there as an independent journalist or as a dependent

16 journalist? Could you tell us whether there was any relationship between

17 him being a colonel and producing the film?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only link was the fact that he

19 was a colonel by rank, but at the time he was there as someone who was

20 there to produce footage on what was going on in Knin and the Krajina

21 area. He was a colonel by rank, but he wasn't into the military. What

22 he was into, to the extent that I could judge, was culture.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One additional question. Do you know who

24 requested this film to be produced? Was it on the initiative of the

25 company, or was it ordered by someone and produced by the company?

Page 893

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was there. He did this at his

2 own behest as far as I could tell, and then he had it shown. That was

3 how I saw it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

5 Mr. Margetts.

6 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Did you procure a copy of the video and have to transferred to

8 DVD format at the offices of Veritas in Belgrade?

9 A. Yes. He gave me a copy for your purposes as well. The office of

10 Veritas has the necessary equipment, so we transferred this footage to

11 DVD format, and then I handed it over.

12 Q. Yesterday when you viewed the video, did you see that the Veritas

13 name appears at the commencement of the video, and can you tell the Court

14 whether that name appears at the commencement of the original video?

15 A. No. It's just a copy. Veritas had nothing to do with the

16 footage, but they used this as their own advertisement. So the original

17 copy of the footage does not have this.

18 Q. And so it's the fact that the copy that they made for you they

19 placed on a DVD, and at that time they put the name "Veritas" at the

20 commencement of the DVD. Is that a correct understanding?

21 A. Yes, that is correct. They used this as a form of advertisement.

22 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if we -- if that is sufficient, if we

23 could now proceed with the playing of the video.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, since the transcript and the

25 voiceover is not a part of the exhibit, could you try to get the volume

Page 894

1 so much down that we're not bothered by that? And I take it that the

2 explosion of shells is still to be heard even if the volume is so much

3 down that you might not be able to fully follow the text.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We will attempt to regulate the

5 volume in that manner. And again the portion that's going to be played

6 is the portion between 7 minutes, 16 seconds, and 16 minutes, 6 seconds.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, may I take that you have carefully

8 considered whether everything can be played in -- for the public as well?

9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, we have, and it can be played

10 for the public.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Witness, on a number of occasions on that footage a person

15 dressed in camouflage uniform walks into the frame of the picture. On

16 each of these occasions is that Colonel Nestorovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we've produced a number of stills of

19 the images that appear on the video, and if they could be presented to

20 the witness. It's not necessary for them to be under seal. The question

21 is whether or not it would be more convenient to have these as subsidiary

22 images introduced with the video, which may be the more appropriate way

23 to deal with them. Instead of an independent exhibit number.

24 JUDGE ORIE: They from the video, though?

25 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, they are.

Page 895

1 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that unless the Defence would disagree

2 that it's -- it is an instrument to help us rather than it adds anything

3 to what is in evidence that's that video.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We thought it would be more

5 manageable, one for presentation in and two for analytical purposes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You said this could be shown to the public --

7 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- even if the known -- even if the name of the

9 witness is on it?

10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I thank for observing that. The

11 witness has signed these pages and of course that means that they should

12 be under seal.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Unless, you limit -- if it's possible to have them

14 zoomed in in such a way that the name disappears.

15 I am informed that we have no transcript at this moment, so even

16 this words will not be in the transcript. We are waiting for the -- I

17 see "test test." Yes. It seems that the technical problem for the

18 transcript has been resolved.

19 Mr. Margetts. If these stills could be put on the screen without

20 the name of the witness then of course you can use it and then the public

21 sees again what it has seen before as well.

22 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. The question being that since

23 they do have the name of the witness the video will not be under seal it

24 may be can we have a subsidiary exhibit number which is not under seal

25 when the primary exhibit is under seal or should we allot a new exhibit

Page 896

1 number to these stills.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I am afraid that I do not understand. I thought

3 video is not under seal. What these pictures do is just is assist us in

4 focusing on a certain portion of the video. If, as I see the usher is

5 already doing, if they're folded in such a way that the name disappears

6 they can be used on the ELMO and there's no need, I think, to give any

7 additional exhibit numbers.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. And if we can then modify these

9 documents so that the portion with the witness's signature on them is

10 omitted from the final exhibit.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the exhibit is the video, isn't it? This

12 is just the same as we see on the video. What we see now is -- on the

13 ELMO we see the exact timing in the video and we get a cut out portion of

14 the video and the witness can comment on it.

15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, can you look at the two stills that are marked E.

17 One of them depicts an image at counter reference 12 minutes, 24, and 87

18 seconds and the other -- 12 minutes, 24:87, and the other reflects an

19 image at 12 minutes, 28:83. Can you see those two images?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can you now look at the aerial image of Knin which you marked

22 yesterday.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber whether --

25 A. This is consistent with the letter E.

Page 897

1 MR. MISETIC: I can't follow which pictures we're looking at, so

2 if you could identify them --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think we were looking at pictures which were

4 12:24:87 and 12:28:83, the time indicated marked I think both as E, which

5 to me is of some leading quality.

6 Mr. Margetts.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Witness. The marking E on the aerial image,

8 does that reflect the location of the images marked E?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's the same spot that is

10 marked in the photograph with the letter E. This is the northern section

11 of the town next to the school. The elementary school building in Knin

12 is just across the way.

13 Q. Now, Witness, if I could now take you to the still images marked

14 F. In fact there is only one of them and that is an image of counter

15 reference 13:07:07, and if you could again inform the Court whether or

16 not the location marked at F in the aerial image of Knin corresponds to

17 the still image marked F?

18 A. Yes. That is consistent with that shoot. This is next to the

19 army hall in the centre of town near the bus terminal.

20 Q. And for clarity, Your Honour, what we are referring to in F is

21 the plume of smoke that appears in the foreground of the picture.

22 Witness, there are two plumes of smoke that appear in the still

23 image F. Are you referring to the plume of smoke that appears in the

24 foreground when you indicate that it corresponds to the marking F on the

25 aerial image of Knin?

Page 898

1 A. I think this is another image, and this could be H, the one

2 marked as H, because the other image is from the other side, the screw

3 factory in Knin, and I think this is a different image.

4 We see the letter G there, and that could be consistent with the

5 second fire -- or, rather, the other fire that you can see in the

6 background. I think that would be consistent with the letter G.

7 Q. So for clarity, the marking F designates the plume of smoke in

8 the foreground of the still, and the letter G designates the area in the

9 background of the still where a plume of smoke is rising.

10 A. Yes. That's G. That's behind the screw factory in Knin. That's

11 towards Biserkova Glavica. I do know the town after all.

12 Q. Witness if we could now --

13 MR. MISETIC: I am not able to follow what the witness is

14 identifying any longer on this picture. We're talking -- he's talking

15 about G in the picture and this hasn't been tendered for that. I'm not

16 even sure he's saying that F is there.

17 JUDGE ORIE: G apparently is a picture which we found in this

18 series which can be seen at 15:1:75 out of a hundred of a second.

19 That's, Mr. Margetts, how I understood --

20 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. Unfortunately --

21 JUDGE ORIE: The same as we have -- as a matter of fact, we have

22 two images under G, one 14:17:50 and the other one 15:01:75.

23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, there are two more.

24 There's four total.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Yes.

Page 899

1 MR. MISETIC: 13:33:48, 13:39 --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Margetts, you present this to us as first

3 two pages E, then F, G, another time G, then F again, then H, then G, and

4 then G. That's how we see received it, and my alphabet is a bit

5 different but if there are good reasons to do it this way --

6 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, there is no reason to do it that way.

7 The package should be in alphabetical order.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then I take it -- yes. I'll get the

9 staples out first.

10 MR. MARGETTS: And I think it ...

11 JUDGE ORIE: Your copies are not in the right order,

12 Mr. Margetts?

13 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. My --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Why not check before you distribute and --

15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Apologies, Your Honour, for that omission.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

17 MR. MARGETTS: And I -- the disorder of the package is not yet in

18 any manner affected the sequence in which we wish to proceed, only to say

19 that I think that the confusion has arisen because the image F was

20 presented and the marking F --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do it the following way. Let's not analyse

22 what went wrong, let's see what we learn from F and G and ask the

23 witness about it so that we -- May I take it that you say in the

24 alphabetical order that if we are within one letter that we then take a

25 chronological order. Is that -- because then E 12:24 should be first,

Page 900

1 then we have E 12:28. Then we have F 13:07, and then F 14:03, and then

2 these were the Fs. Then as far as G is concerned, we start with 13:33,

3 13:39, 14:17, and finally 15:01 and then the last one being H. This is

4 the order I have in front of me now. Could we please start again with

5 the plumes of smoke.

6 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, will you -- Witness, we'll refer back again to the still

8 image which is marked F in the top right hand corner, and there are two

9 images that are marked F in the top right-hand corner. One is at the

10 reference 13:07:07.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have that on the ELMO so that we know

12 what we're talking about. Yes, of course without the signature. Let me

13 just see. Yes, we have it on the ELMO now.


15 Q. Witness, can you see the plume of smoke in the foreground of this

16 image at 13:07:07? Is that plume designated on the aerial image of Knin

17 by the letter F?

18 A. Yes. If I may, can we just have the photograph back? What one

19 can see here is the old Knin secondary school and then across the way

20 from there we can see the first plume. A building was hit that was right

21 next to the army hall. And then further back the other plume of smoke

22 that you can see is in a neighbourhood that is across the way from

23 Tvik [phoen] at the foot of Biserkova Glava. The photograph shows both

24 places and you can see that both locations are ablaze.

25 Q. And the plume of smoke that appears in the background of the

Page 901

1 image marked 13:07:07 is a plume of smoke rising from the location marked

2 G in the aerial image?

3 A. Yes, that's right. G.

4 Q. If you could now turn your attention to the second still marked

5 F, and that has the counter reference 14:03:61, is that a close-up of the

6 plume of smoke that is in the foreground of the image marked 13:07:07,

7 and therefore is that a plume of smoke arising from the location marked

8 F?

9 A. Yes. I think if we have a closer look -- this is just zoomed.

10 Zooming in on the location that was hit. And if you look at this one you

11 can be more specific about the building that was hit. It is the same

12 photograph, I think.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, there's a collection of images marked

14 G, and if you could look at all of those images, and they are from

15 various vantage points and either close-up images or distant images, and

16 they are of frames that appear on the video at the following counter

17 references: 13:33:48, 13:39:36, 14:17:50, and 15:01:75. Witness, have

18 you had a chance to review those four still images marked G, and can you

19 inform the Court whether the location marked G on the aerial map depicts

20 the location of the plume of smoke that appears in these images marked G?

21 A. Yes, I can confirm that. I recognise the photographs, and I know

22 this neighbourhood simply because I happened to live nearby.

23 Q. Thank you very much. And now this takes us to our final still

24 image --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- could I ask one additional question,

Page 902

1 Mr. Margetts. I see the first, the third, and the fourth clearly give a

2 similar picture. I recognise a lot of features on all three of them.

3 However, the second one, which is 13:39:36, I would like to ask the

4 witness to tell us exactly where we find that image on any of the three

5 other larger images. So that rather massive building we find on 13:39,

6 which is now on the ELMO, could you point at one of the other photographs

7 where to find that building.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm pointing at right now,

9 13:39:36, as far as I can tell this is not the same spot that we've been

10 looking at. This is a block further down the street. I don't think this

11 is the same place. I think this is a different building, and this is

12 closer to the elementary school building in Knin. It can't being the

13 same thing in relation to the previous photographs that we were looking

14 at. This is a different location.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Do I now understand that the picture that you were

16 just pointing at which is G at the time 13:39, that that building does

17 not appear on any of the other G pictures? Is that correctly understood?

18 And if it does appear on any of the other G pictures, then please

19 indicate where we find it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I may, the image is quite

21 unclear. It's difficult to be specific, but if I may use this to show

22 you. Please have a look. 13:33:48.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are now looking at 13:33:48. Could it

24 please be zoomed in, Mr. --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 48, what I'm pointing at, it might

Page 903

1 be this building that we're zoomed in on in the previous image. I can't

2 be certain about it, but I think that is the building. I assume the

3 building appears in other photographs too. It never is clear, is it. I

4 think here we have a closer image, and as a result it's clearer.

5 I think it's the same building.

6 And if we go back to that footage that we were looking at you can

7 see the same thing. There is no need to speculate since the area is the

8 same. Probably shells landed in several different places and that is why

9 we see blazes or plumes of smoke in several different locations.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I'm aiming at at this moment,

11 Mr. Margetts, and please help me or let the witness help me where exactly

12 to find on the bigger photographs the building I find on G 13:39.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Your Honour observes that the distant

14 imagery is -- does not have sufficient resolution to be certain of the

15 location, and so it seems to me that this device was intended to avoid

16 the effort or avoid the need to look at the video, but in this instance

17 I'd ask the Court to play the video again between 13:32 and 13:41.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can see whether it's zoomed in.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I do not mind to look at it so that we know for sure

21 what we're looking at. Is there anyway of having it played again on your

22 instructions, Mr. Margetts, so that --

23 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. We'll play the segment of

24 the video between 13:32 and 13:41.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's 11 seconds. If you give it a start a

Page 904

1 little bit earlier then we'll have a moment to --

2 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Because 32 are seconds, and if you start, for

4 example, at 13:25, then we have 8 seconds to get used what we see.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. 13:25 to 13:45.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we look at it -- that will be on e-court

7 or -- yes.


9 Q. And, Witness, if you could observe this video sequence and if you

10 could reconcile that with the images that we presented to you.

11 A. That's it. That's the building.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It's now perfectly clear. Please proceed.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Witness, if I could refer you to a final still -- well, actually

15 I'll ask you again, Witness. We've just referred to these four images G.

16 If you could look at them again and can you confirm that having viewed

17 the video the image at 13:39 is the same plume of smoke as the image at

18 13:33. And you'll need to give an oral answer if you could.

19 A. Yes. I'm able to confirm that. It is the same place and I

20 recognise the place. It's near the screw factory in Knin in a

21 neighbourhood that is at the foot of Biserkova Glava. The large building

22 that you can see there was the mill in the middle of Knin. It was known

23 Argroprejeda [phoen].

24 Q. Thank you, Witness for that. This is the -- and now if we could

25 refer to the final still image and that is the still image marked H which

Page 905

1 appears at the counter reference 14:12:70, and could you please look at

2 the aerial image of Knin and that still image marked H and confirm that

3 the location on the aerial image marked H indicates the location that is

4 depicted in the still image marked H.

5 A. That's right. You can see the railway station, and this is

6 closer to the fortress across the way from the railway station, and it's

7 marked H.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness. That -- that concludes our attention to the

9 aerial image of Knin and to those still images. If I could move now to a

10 different topic with the witness?

11 JUDGE ORIE: How much time had you scheduled for this witness,

12 Mr. Margetts?

13 MR. MARGETTS: We'd initially scheduled an hour and a half and

14 we --

15 JUDGE ORIE: But last schedule, yes.

16 MR. MARGETTS: -- cut that back to 45 minutes. Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: 45 minutes, yes. How much time would you still

18 need?

19 MR. MARGETTS: We would need, I'd say 10 minutes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Try to do it in seven or eight minutes and then

21 we'll have a break. May I first clarify, is the whole picture issue now

22 clear for everyone? It's clear to me, but apart from following the

23 comments of course, whether why it was shelled and how it was shelled and

24 by whom it was shelled, but just that we know that we're looking at the

25 same thing.

Page 906

1 MR. MISETIC: Yes. We agree that we are all looking at the same

2 thing.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Margetts the last part where we had seen the

4 zooming, whether it was the same plume of smoke was rather unnecessary.

5 Please proceed.

6 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted) Could you detail to the

9 Court --

10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour.


12 MR. MISETIC: Could we go into private session for a minute?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I take it that you wanted to go into

14 private session.

15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We go into private session.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 907











11 Pages 907-917 redacted. Private session.















Page 918

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whoever on the public -- wait until you have

6 your earphones on again. Whoever may have heard anything being on the

7 public gallery, and I invite everyone to listen carefully, has heard

8 anything which might be a clue to the identity of the witness at present

9 testifying is under an order by this Court not to give this information

10 to anyone else, whoever it is.

11 We adjourn, and we will resume at 10 minutes past 1.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.46 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 1.10 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Before, Mr. Misetic, I give you the opportunity to

15 cross-examine the witness.

16 Mr. Margetts, could you try in five lines to tell us what the

17 relevance of the document is? I have not read it in its entirety so I

18 might have missed a lot, but could you tell us five lines.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. It goes back to the submissions

20 of the Gotovina response which we received last Thursday. They stated

21 that it is important for the -- Mr. Gotovina and the public to be shown

22 the true nature of the witnesses that the Prosecution are presenting

23 before the Trial Chamber.

24 We have been informed in advance of the cross-examination

25 that's --

Page 919

1 JUDGE ORIE: But --

2 MR. MARGETTS: -- that's going to take place, and accordingly we

3 wanted to ensure that documentation relevant to that issue, the true

4 nature, activities and contribution of this witness was before the Trial

5 Chamber and not only a selective part of that material. And specifically

6 the document deals with artefacts, exhibitions, art works --

7 JUDGE ORIE: But isn't it true that it was introduced in the

8 context of protective measures?

9 MR. MARGETTS: It was introduced --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. I do understand that. Now, what's the

11 relevance for your case of this material apart from credibility of the

12 witnesses?

13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it was addressing the issue of

14 credibility of the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it's clear what it is, and then that --

16 Mr. Misetic.

17 MR. MISETIC: As a procedural point, Your Honour, it's fine on

18 this occasion, but I believe procedurally the Prosecution should in

19 redirect wait for the cross-examination and if the issue arises then in

20 redirect raise the issue.

21 JUDGE ORIE: At least I tend to agree with you, Mr. Misetic, that

22 starting to give documentary support to the credibility and reliability

23 of witness before it even has been -- the witness or his evidence has

24 been attacked is perhaps a bit premature. This may serve as guidance for

25 the future.

Page 920

1 Mr. Misetic.

2 Witness 6, he'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Misetic who is

3 counsel for Mr. Gotovina. Please proceed.

4 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

6 Q. Witness 6, in your witness statement at paragraph 7 you discuss

7 the history of the Second World War. The third sentence says:

8 "During the Second World War, around 1 million Serbs were killed

9 by the Ustashas, Germans, and Italians. In 1991 this history was an

10 important reason why the Serbs in the area established the Republika

11 Srpska Krajina to protect themselves from the nationalist politics of

12 Tudjman who had adopted the Ustasha insignia and the slogans."

13 Do you see that? Witness 6 isn't it true that the --

14 A. I don't.

15 Q. He doesn't have the statement in front of him, Your Honour, but

16 it's --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let the witness be provided with a copy of his

18 statement in a language he --

19 MR. MISETIC: P16, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: P16. Do we have a B/C/S translation?

21 MR. MISETIC: I believe he was shown a B/C/S in the direct, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would have a spare copy, Mr. Margetts,

24 it would be appreciated if you help us out.

25 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. It can be presented on e-court.

Page 921

1 JUDGE ORIE: We can also do it on e-court. Then the witness can

2 see it on his screen. But of course this is under seal, so therefore

3 it's not --

4 MR. MISETIC: It's not -- I'm sorry.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think his statement is under seal unless we use

6 the redacted copy.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I do have is a B/C/S copy here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps if you give it to the witness then if

9 you draw his attention the relevant portions. It's the unredacted copy,

10 I take it.

11 MR. MISETIC: I thank Mr. Margetts for assistance.



14 Q. It is paragraph 7, Witness 6. That is what you told the

15 Prosecution; correct?

16 A. Well, my copy reads somewhat differently from what you've read

17 out. If you allow me, I would like to read the paragraph to myself from

18 the copy that I had signed.

19 Q. [Microphone not activated]

20 JUDGE ORIE: You signed the English copy. Perhaps --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed the B/C/S version or,

22 rather, both since I expected that the English version would reflect the

23 copy I have before me.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any problem with it perhaps we could

25 invite -- if you, Mr. Misetic, would draw the attention to the exact line

Page 922

1 you would like to put a question about and then ask the witness to read

2 it in the copy as he has it before him.


4 Q. The last sentence of paragraph 7.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MR. MISETIC: Sorry.

7 Q. The last sentence of paragraph 7, if you would read it, please.

8 A. "During the Second World War, the Ustashas, Germans, and

9 Italians killed around 1 million Serbs. In 1991, this historical piece

10 of information was an important reason why the Serbs in the area

11 established the Republika Srpska Krajina, in order to protect themselves

12 from Tudjman's nationalist politics which adopted the Ustasha insignia

13 and slogans."

14 Q. Okay. It is true, is it not --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


17 Q. It is true, is it not, Witness 6, that the struggle for a

18 so-called sovereign Republika Srpska Krajina began on 28 February 1989?

19 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, my microphone appears to be turning on

20 and off at will.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It might be a consequence that we have to

22 switch off our microphones in view of the voice distortion, and sometimes

23 higher technical powers assist us in performing this duty.

24 Let's -- it's now on.

25 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

Page 923

1 Q. Were you able to hear the last question?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then if you'd please repeat the question.

3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

4 Q. It is true, is it not, Witness 6, that the struggle for a

5 so-called sovereign Republika Srpska Krajina began on 28 February 1989?

6 A. It is incorrect. In 1989 the struggle could not have begun since

7 by that time no elections were held and no multi-party system introduced.

8 It was established only in 1990. Therefore, at the moment you are

9 referring to there is no way such a struggle could have begun.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Just to inform the parties, if the witness answers a

11 question, you should switch off your microphones, because the voice

12 distortion is not effective if the sound can reach your microphones and

13 in that way reach the public as well. That's the system. So whenever

14 the witness answers, switch off your microphone.

15 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I might give some guidance to the

17 parties. This witness has been introduced as a witness of fact, not as

18 an expert. I fully see your point, Mr. Misetic, that the witness,

19 although there were no objections against admission, but I mean the

20 Chamber is not blind for the fact that there are important elements of --

21 of opinion and even judgement in his statement. Of course the Chamber

22 will not on the basis of those judgements and those opinions just accept

23 that this is what it really is. Therefore, there might not be full need

24 to explore and to put a lot of questions to the witness and then to hear

25 the witness say that from his position he looks at it differently. I

Page 924

1 mean, that's, I would say, already a bit clear from other portions of the

2 evidence, including the credibility material the Prosecution has

3 provided.

4 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will just note for you

5 that I'm aware of the Trial Chamber's position on it. With this specific

6 witness, however, there is specific factual basis to asking this --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not going to stop you just in order to avoid we

8 spend a huge amount of time on matters which are perhaps not to be

9 introduced in the way the Prosecution this way -- at this moment is

10 introducing them. Please proceed.

11 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Let me point out that it

12 is addressing an issue that is in the Prosecution's pre-trial brief.

13 I need to go into private session for a moment.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Move into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 925











11 Pages 925-931 redacted. Private session.















Page 932

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 933

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] For the last 600 years the heroism

4 of Kosovo has inspired our creativity, our pride, and reminded us not to

5 forget that we were once a powerful, brave, and proud army, one of the

6 few that remained undefeated despite the losses.

7 "Today, six centuries later, we are doing battle once again. We

8 are facing battles, not armed battles, although such cannot be ruled out

9 yet. No matter what kind of battles we face, they cannot be won without

10 determination, courage, and devotion."

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Chanting: Slobodan, Slobodan, we

13 love you, we love you as we love St. Sava.

14 "Slobodan, you are a Serb man, Serbia will follow you.

15 "Serbia has risen. Serbia has risen.

16 "Slobo, gather you units in front of Gracanica church.

17 "Slobodan, we will follow you all the way to Tirana if we have

18 to.

19 "Milosevic Slobodan, don't let Serbhood go down.

20 "Who is spreading the lie that Serbia is small? It's not small,

21 it waged three wars. It will wage war again because it will not be a

22 slave.

23 "Hit stronger, strike harder, Kosovo Polje now again belongs to

24 the Serbs. We have avenged the Emperor Lazar and all of the members of

25 the Jugovic family.

Page 934

1 "Obilic's name was Milos.

2 "Montenegro, our mother."

3 MR. MISETIC: Just one question, Your Honour, before we finish.

4 Q. If you know, what are those people in July 1989 rallying about?

5 A. Every year they would gather the same voices there. This was a

6 tradition ever since 1989 when Lazarica Church was built. Every year

7 they gathered outside that church for St. Vitus Day. In 1989 they marked

8 the 100th anniversary of the church, and I see that the gathering was on

9 a larger scale. I realise that many people had arrived all the way from

10 Serbia. This was the moment.

11 This was the meeting that we looked at a while ago, the Kosovo

12 meeting. I think this was a replay of that meeting in Dalmatian Kosovo.

13 I have to admit that this is the first time I see any images of this

14 meeting. I wasn't at that meeting myself. I stuck to my job, and I

15 steered clear of meetings such as these. I've never set eyes on this

16 before, this meeting in Dalmatian Kosovo.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. There seems to be a distinction made

18 between Kosovo and Dalmatian Kosovo, which is not entirely clear to me.

19 If anyone could --

20 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour. There is a town outside of Knin

21 called Kosovo. So Dalmatian Kosovo is that town and Kosovo obviously the

22 autonomous province.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That certainly avoids a lot of confusion.

24 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have to finish for the day, Witness 6. We

Page 935

1 will adjourn, but before doing so I'd like to instruct you that you

2 should not speak to anyone about the testimony, whether already given or

3 still to be given so to speak, with no one about it, and we will resume

4 tomorrow Tuesday the 8th of April, 9.00, Courtroom III.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day

7 of April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.