1 Wednesday, 23 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Before I invite Mr. Kehoe to proceed, Mr. Leslie, I would like to
13 remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you
14 have given at the beginning of your testimony that you will speak the
15 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
16 Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to continue.
17 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 WITNESS: ANDREW LESLIE [Resumed]
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe: [Continued]
20 Q. Good afternoon, General. If I could ask that P62 be brought up
21 on the screen.
22 General, there is the map that we have been talking about
23 yesterday, and you mentioned during the course of your testimony about
24 the artillery fire that you observed and you talked about the centre of
25 town. With the assistance of the usher, could you please use the pen and
1 mark with an X the area that you were referring to as the centre of town.
2 A. [Marks]
3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I could have that -- a numbered
4 placed on that and moved into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it no objection.
6 MR. TIEGER: Correct, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D118.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D118 is admitted into evidence.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. Let me go back and reference some of your testimony that you
13 mentioned yesterday and you mentioned to us during the course of your
14 testimony that shortly before Operation Storm tensions were mounting. Do
15 you recall that?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And you also mentioned for us -- and this would be on page 1939
18 at line 23, that the first confirmed indication we had - and you're
19 talking about the attack - the first confirmed indication we had was
20 roughly 20 minutes after 3.00 on the 4th when Sector South headquarters
21 received an indication from UNCRO headquarters our superior headquarters
22 in Zagreb, that an attack by the Croatian forces to capture the Krajina
23 was imminent.
24 You recall that, do you not, sir?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. Now, sir, prior to that, and going back to your comment that
2 tensions were mounting, you were fully aware of fighting prior to that
3 time going on between the HV and the Krajina Serbs in July of 1995,
4 weren't you?
5 A. Yes, and also between the HVO.
6 Q. And if we can put up on the screen 65 ter 810.
7 General, this is a document dated 28 July 1995, signed by the
8 Supreme Defence Council of the Republic of Krajina, Serbian Krajina and
9 on the 28th it notes that a state of war is declared on the entire
10 territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?
11 You were aware of that, were you not?
12 A. I had not seen it prior to this occasion. I was aware of the
13 documents being discussed by the time I was up at UNCRO headquarters.
14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we will offer this exhibit
15 into evidence.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes Exhibit D119.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D119 admitted into evidence.
21 Mr. Kehoe, could you seek some clarification. The witness said:
22 "I had not seen it prior to this occasion. I was aware of the documents
23 being discussed by the time I was up at UNCRO headquarters," which both
24 this occasion and the time when the witness was up at UNCRO headquarters
25 is not immediately clear to me what date or what moment that refers to.
1 Perhaps the witness could -- could you, Mr. Leslie, could you explain to
2 me what you exactly meant there.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection, this is
4 the first time that I have seen this document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You mean today.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. As well, to the best of my recollection,
7 the knowledge that this document existed was being discussed and was a
8 topic of conversation by the time I got to my new post as Chief of Staff
9 UNCRO or at some period shortly thereafter.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You mean just before or about the time of your
11 arrival in Knin.
12 THE WITNESS: No, sir, my time in Zagreb.
13 JUDGE ORIE: In Zagreb. Yes, because in Knin you were only --
14 you were Chief of Staff of Sector South.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. So General, is it your testimony that while you were in Sector
20 South you had no knowledge that the army -- or the Republic of Serb
21 Krajina had declared war on July 28th?
22 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, just a point of minor
23 clarification. I would have raised previous occasion. Again in the
24 interest of precision I think there is a distinction between declaring
25 war and declaring a state of war, probably one that may not be
1 significant for the immediate purpose but may be significant over time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If there is any distinction to be made Mr. Kehoe,
3 then I take it.
4 MR. KEHOE: Frankly, Judge, I was not trying to parse words here.
5 I will use any words in the document it was not a -- it was a
6 distinction, frankly, that escaped me but I will use the word in the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
9 MR. KEHOE:
10 Q. General, is it your testimony that you were unaware that as of
11 July 28th, 1995, the Republic of Serb Krajina had declared a state of
13 A. No, sir, it is not.
14 Q. So are you saying that you were unaware or you knew?
15 A. We were aware that such talk was out there, but until today I had
16 not seen that document.
17 Q. Were you aware, sir, that the army of the -- army of the
18 Republika Srpska in Bosnia and the army of the Serbian Krajina had joined
20 A. Sir, are you stating that as a fact?
21 Q. I'm asking the question: Were you aware of that?
22 A. We were aware there were discussions and there was information
23 that the three elements of the Serbian forces were cooperating very
24 closely. I cannot recall if I was aware that they this actually joined
25 force. I'm not sure what the context of joined forces means.
1 Q. Were you aware that there were meetings -- let me withdraw that.
2 Were you aware that Ratko Mladic had come to meet with the army of the
3 Republic of Serb Krajina in Knin on 30 July 1995?
4 A. I will take your word for the date, but yes, sir, I was aware of
5 such meetings.
6 Q. And when did you learn about that?
7 A. Sir, I can't recall.
8 Q. Would it have been -- I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You're thinking of pauses.
10 MR. KEHOE: I am thinking of pauses, Judge.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's a good development. Please proceed.
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. Were you aware of that, General, when you were the Chief of Staff
14 in Sector South?
15 A. Yes. And I was aware that such meetings were taking place prior
16 to the outbreak of hostilities on the 4th. I can't specify as to when I
17 was aware.
18 Q. I understand, sir. Now in -- you went on a patrol out of Knin on
19 August the 3rd, and you saw an anti-tank organisation that you observed
20 was very different from the other ARSK units that you had seen prior to
21 that date, did you not?
22 A. Yes, sir I did.
23 Q. And that was a unit that, for lack of a better term, was looked
24 highly professional to you, didn't they?
25 A. Yes, sir. It -- would you like me to elaborate on that.
1 Q. Absolutely sir.
2 A. Yes. It was on or about the 3rd of August. It was up towards
3 the Livno valley. The soldiers were all in identical uniforms. The
4 vehicles looked significantly newer than those that we were accustomed to
5 seeing in Sector South on the side of the rebel Serbs and they were --
6 the aura of professionalism was markedly superior to the run of the mill
7 of Serbian militia with whom we had some practice in dealing with in
8 Sector South.
9 Q. Tell us a little bit about the vehicles that you observed?
10 A. They were wheeled anti-tank guided missile systems. To the best
11 of my recollection I only saw a couple, but it wasn't hard to figure out
12 that there were more out there, but I have no direct knowledge of that.
13 Q. Now, you said this -- I'm sorry.
14 You said, General, that this was in the Livno valley.
15 Approximately how far from Knin was this?
16 A. Sir, if I could request a map, I could perhaps try and show you.
17 It was -- I would hate to guess. It was some considerable distance.
18 Q. I'm not holding you to this General. Could you give us just a
19 ballpark figure in kilometres?
20 A. It was before one got up into the Livno valley. The terrain was
21 highly canalizing. I would say very rough approximation somewhere
22 between 15 to 20 kilometres.
23 Q. And this was -- sorry. But this was still in the Republic of
24 Serb Krajina, wasn't it?
25 A. Absolutely.
1 Q. Now you believed it at that time, General, that this was a unit
2 from the Republika Srpska, didn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, also on the 3rd, UNCRO headquarters in Zagreb sent
5 Captain Williams down from Zagreb to consult with the headquarters in
6 Sector South, didn't they?
7 A. If you're stating that as a fact, sir, I will confer. I
8 unfortunately don't recall when he showed up, but, okay.
9 Q. But, you remember Captain Williams, a Canadian captain coming
10 down from Zagreb.
11 A. I do. But to be honest I cannot recall the exact date.
12 Q. And do you remember that the reason he came down was to advise
13 you and General Foran that a full attack would begin any day?
14 A. It was the intelligence assessments of UNCRO headquarters G2 and
15 UNPF that the possibility of an attack was climbing.
16 Q. And the information you were receiving was that it could happen
17 as early as the next day, the 4th of August. Isn't that right?
18 A. I don't recall that part of the conversation if such ensued. But
19 there were indications that an attack was imminent, I don't recall
20 anybody actually specifying a day.
21 Q. Well, the indications that there was going to be an attack were
22 coming from all quarters of the UN and I include Zagreb as well as New
23 York, weren't they?
24 A. They were.
25 Q. Let us turn our attention to 1D170104 and it goes 0105.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 If we can blow up that first page, Mr. Monkhouse. Is that
3 correct? I don't believe this is the correct document.
4 Your Honour, I think I called up the wrong page.
5 If I can pull up -- 1D170102.
6 Now, this is a -- if we can blow up that page. This is an
7 outgoing cable from Kofi Annan to Mr. Akashi in Zagreb, dated 3rd of
8 August 1995.
9 If we can turn to the next page.
10 Q. And if we can just read some of this briefly. As discussed this
11 afternoon, and by the way this it likewise dated the 3rd of August, 1995
12 when we scroll down we'll be able to see that.
13 Scroll back up, please.
14 "As discussed this afternoon, the prospects for war in Croatia
15 continue to appear alarmingly high despite the significant concessions
16 announced by the Croatian Serbs in Geneva. The security of the United
17 Nations personnel in this situation is therefore of major concern, both
18 in UNPF and here at headquarters. Ambassador Albright plans to call you
19 this afternoon to express her government's conviction that we are not
20 doing enough in this regard."
21 Go to the second sentence in the next paragraph. I won't read
22 all of this, beginning with however:
23 "However there is no escaping the basic reality that the
24 overwhelming majority of UNCRO personnel is deployed in
25 Serbian-controlled [Realtime transcript read in error
1 "certain-controlled"] territories. They are located in observation
2 posts, at border crossings and check-points. Their barracks, offices,
3 and residences are all in Serb-ruled towns. Whether in small groups or
4 large, they are all vulnerable to attack or capture."
5 If I can go to the first sentence in the next -- the last
6 paragraph, beginning with: "Ambassador Albright."
7 Ambassador Albright has made clear that her government's view
8 that the continued presence of United Nations personnel in exposed
9 conditions reveals, "ineptitude, on our part and that our vulnerability,
10 reduces the options of the international community."
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I was listening to the French but I
12 wondered whether page 9, line 15 reflect what you said. The certain
13 controlled territories.
14 MR. KEHOE: It should be Serb-controlled territories, Your
16 JUDGE ORIE: I was there in French so I thought it would be what
17 you said in English.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. Now, as of the 3 August, General, there was deep, deep concern in
21 the United Nations about the safety of UN personnel that were living in
22 Serb towns, wasn't there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in fact, you note that Ambassador Albright described leaving
25 those people out in Serb-held areas and living in Serb-held areas was
1 inept, didn't she?
2 A. I note her opinion.
3 Q. Now --
4 JUDGE ORIE: If we could even read it, Mr. Kehoe.
5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
6 Q. Let us turn our attention to the 3rd. Now, you noted for us you
7 were getting information coming from Zagreb about the growing tensions,
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And on the day of the 3rd, the day before Storm, that was
11 supposed to be your last day, wasn't it?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And on the evening of the 3rd, you along with other members of
14 the UN contingent were downtown having a going away dinner, weren't you?
15 A. I can't remember if it was on the 2nd or the 3rd. But if you
16 have people who say it was on the 3rd, all right.
17 Q. That is true. You were having a going away dinner down there,
18 weren't you?
19 A. On either the 2nd or the 3rd. That is correct.
20 Q. Now during that dinner and Grace Kang was there, wasn't she?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And Grace Kang was an UN employee, wasn't she?
23 A. She was.
24 Q. And during the course of this dinner, you and Ms. Kang spoke to
25 Ambassador Galbraith on the telephone. And he told to you go to the
1 compound didn't he?
2 A. He did not.
3 Q. Well, what did he tell you?
4 A. It was a conversation between himself and the lady in question.
5 At some point she turned the phone over to me and quite frankly I did not
6 understand his point. He was saying, Are our positions secure? And I
7 said, What are you trying to tell us Mr. Ambassador have you informed
8 UNCRO headquarters and by the way I'm certainly not going to ask my area
9 commander to initiate the sirens that night which may trigger a whole
10 sequence of events, and the conversation stopped.
11 Q. Let me very clear, is it your testimony that Ambassador Galbraith
12 did not advise you during that conversation to go to the compound?
13 A. I can recall no such conversation.
14 Q. Now, the Canadian ambassador to Croatia at that time was a
15 Mr. Graham Green, wasn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Mr. Green, Ambassador Green, likewise advised the Canadian
18 contingent in the evening hours of 3 August 1995 that an attack was going
19 come the next morning. Didn't he?
20 A. I have no knowledge of that.
21 Q. Well, you remember Captain Belarose [phoen], don't you?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. And do you know that he advised the Tribunal that at 11.00, 2300
24 hours on 3 August, he spoke to you and the Operations Officer Duso
25 [phoen] who told him that an attack was going to occur on the morning of
1 the 4th. Do you know that?
2 A. I was not aware that that was his testimony.
3 Q. Did you have that conversation with Captain Belarose?
4 A. Sir, there were many conversations on the evenings, several of
5 them from the 1st of August, onwards as to what the probability of the
6 attack by the Croats into the rebel Serb enclave of the Krajina as to
7 when it might occur. There may well have been multiple conversations
8 with individuals that you mention, all of it speculative in nature.
9 Q. So warnings coming from New York, warnings coming from Zagreb,
10 warnings potentially coming from the ambassador of the United States,
11 warnings potentially coming from the ambassador, the Canadian ambassador,
12 to Croatia, plus information in the OPs officer that was not sufficient
13 for you, Colonel, to conclude that an attack was going to take place the
14 next day?
15 A. Sir, there were also warnings from Croatian military authorities.
16 There were warnings from Serbian military authorities. There was
17 warnings from the local population. The indicators were climbing as were
18 the tensions, but as to the exact moment or even day of the attack, the
19 first confirmed indication we got was via the military chain of command
20 from UNCRO headquarters into our operations centre at approximately 0320
21 hours on the morning of the 4th.
22 Q. General?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, in your previous question you took all
24 the warnings that you have put to the witness before, as warnings that
25 reached him the testimony was that certainly not all of them reached them
1 so therefore it is improper that all the warnings did not lead him
2 because that suggests and does not fully reflect the testimony of the
3 witness that all these warnings reached him.
4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And would you please refrain from including such
6 suggestions in this way in your questions.
7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. KEHOE:
10 Q. It is a fact -- well, there was a Canadian battalion in the zone
11 of separation, wasn't there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you were in contact with that Canadian battalion, weren't
15 A. General Foran's command team, which I was a member, was in
16 contact with all the battalions, including the Canadian.
17 Q. And, sir, they were informed at 2200 hours on the 3rd of
18 August that an attack was going to ensue the following morning, weren't
20 A. I believe, sir, and I don't have any such documentation in front
21 of me, they were informed that the risks were high for an attack sometime
22 in the immediate future.
23 Q. The risks were high. Sir, you were -- well, do you recall -- you
24 testified yesterday that the UN sector security person was
25 Andries Dreyer. Do you remember you said that yesterday?
1 A. I believe so, yes.
2 Q. Now Andries Dreyer told this Court last week that the person
3 responsible from taking a condition from code orange to code red was you,
4 and I will give you the page reference; 1754 at line 24, beginning in 16:
5 "How made the decision? I apologise. Who made the decision as
6 to when the alert level was going to go from orange to red? Answer: The
7 decision on the alert levels at that point in time was in the hands of
8 the military. Question: And who in the military? Answer: In the
9 military within our compound it rested with the Chief of Staff.
10 Question: And who was that. The Chief of Staff at that time was
11 Colonel Leslie."
12 Now you were the person who was going make the decision as to
13 whether or not this was going to move from a code orange to a code red,
15 A. In part.
16 Q. Well, sir, you are at headquarters at Sector South at 11.00 in
17 the evening when you had a discussion with Belarose and Duso about an
18 attack coming the next morning, didn't you?
19 A. We discussed often the potential of an attack. Let me, if you
20 will permit, point out some issues that may be related to where I believe
21 you intend to go with your line of questioning.
22 Q. Sir, excuse me, just answer the question. You can go back on
23 redirect and give a speech. Please, I just want to you answer the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Kehoe, it's not totally
1 ununderstandable that the witness responds in this way. I agree with you
2 that the witness doesn't have to bother about your line of questioning.
3 Nevertheless, you repeat questions sometimes where you apparently are not
4 very happy with the answers and that of course makes people think of
5 lines of questions where you are heading for and quite honest it came
6 into my mind a couple of times as well.
7 Please put your question and if you would please answer them and
8 we will keep a close eye on whether the questions are repetitious or not.
9 Please proceed.
10 THE WITNESS: Sir, I was responsible to my commander for the
11 security status of Sector South headquarters.
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. So when I asked you before about Mr. Dryers' statement that you
14 as Chief of Staff was the person that made the decision whether this was
15 going to move from a code orange to a code red, the answer to that, is,
16 yes, it is you, right?
17 A. Not completely, sir, because there were implications of moving to
18 code red in Sector South headquarters not of least of which was
19 initiating emergency recall, hitting the air-raid sirens and triggering a
20 variety of the responses throughout the town of Knin.
21 Q. Well, sir, if you had -- I'm sorry.
22 If you had triggered the air-raid sirens and you had gone to a
23 code red General, you wouldn't have had security personnel out at 5.00 in
24 the morning in soft skinned vehicles picking up civilians would you?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Leslie is a witness here not a person
1 who has to answer to, well, let's say questions which come close to
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. General, as a result of not going to a code red at 11.00 in the
6 morning -- excuse me, 11.00 in the evening on the 3rd of August, UN
7 personnel and Mr. Dryer at 5.00 in the morning were forced to go out in
8 soft skin vehicles and begin the retrieval of UN personnel who were
9 living in the town. Isn't that right?
10 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to answer this question because the
11 question is put in such a way that it puts an monocausal situation to you
12 and where Mr. Kehoe does not accept that you explain and try to elaborate
13 on what you really find.
14 Mr. Kehoe, if I say that -- well, you are putting matters in a
15 monocausal situation. If you say, did this contribute, usually we have
16 things are not as simple as they look at first sight. What kind of
17 vehicles do you have; what information reached you; what -- if you would
18 ask the witness whether the fact that did he not -- that if he would have
19 decided that code red would apply, that the situation might have been
20 different, fine. It is a factor in a cause of events. And that's how
21 the chamber would look at matters and not as isn't it true that this is
22 the result of that. Hardly a situation is the result of one other
23 factor, but usually of a complex of factors.
24 Would you keep that in mind and please condition.
25 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And of course you would ask the witness if he ask it
2 in a different way whether that would change the situation. That's
3 perfectly right, but if you put it as a monocausal question to him he
4 doesn't have to respond to that. If you want to the extent -- Mr. Kehoe
5 allows you to explain what you mean, of course can you do it, but ...
6 THE WITNESS: Sir, some of the discussions which took place the
7 night of the 3rd and the night of the 1st and the 2nd because there were
8 a variety of opinions and rumour and conversations from a variety of
9 sources saying that attack was imminent, was that in the absence of a
10 relatively definitive opinion and asteer from our chain of command, the
11 possibility of initiating emergency recall procedures in Knin, the
12 capital of the rebel Serbs might well have triggered a precipitous
13 assault either one way or another across the entirety of the Krajina we
14 had to be synchronised with our fellow sector, Sector East, Sector North,
15 Sector South.
16 Q. Just waiting for the translator to finish, Judge, I can see in
17 the booth that she is still translating.
18 Sir, your highest responsibility was the safety of UN personnel,
19 safety and security of UN staff, want it?
20 A. Our highest responsibility was to fulfil our mission as dictated
21 by the United Nations security council resolution.
22 Q. And part of that responsibility, the high responsibility was the
23 safety and security of UN staff.
24 A. Sir, safety and security of UN staff and soldiers is a prime and
25 critical concern but it does not mitigate against meeting our mission
2 Q. You didn't go on red alert according to your direct examination
3 until 3.20 in the morning, right?
4 A. I -- I'm just, I'm sorry, I don't exactly have a copy of
5 transcript here, so I can't see when they've finished. I've got it now,
6 sir. Thank you.
7 Just to be clear, sir, I received from the OP centre at roughly
8 3.20 shortly after that, General Foran and I discussed the issue, so I
9 can't give a precise time when we actually hit or went to what you call
10 code red which involved hitting the air-raid sirens and a variety of
11 other things.
12 Q. I'm not trying to mix with the nomenclature code red alert or red
13 alert or a red level. What is the proper description?
14 A. Low state red.
15 Q. Low state red.
16 Now, when you -- given the information that you had on the
17 evening of the 3rd, where you didn't go to the alert level red, you
18 didn't do that, because you did not expect the HV, the Croatian army, to
19 attack the centre of gravity, did you, Knin?
20 A. Sir, I think you're making an assumption that the centre of
21 gravity was Knin. There is a professional debate as to the validity of
22 that comment, or we could certainly have one. And I'll leave it at that.
23 Q. Well, it was in fact the capital of the Republic of Serb Krajina?
24 A. Absolutely sir. Having said that, the centre of gravity is that
25 one single item which will either you must defend or attack respectively
1 between the enemy and the Defence, and in the case, and I believe you
2 have already referred to it, the centre of gravity arguably for the rebel
3 Serbs was the connection to the Serbs in Bosnia and Serbian.
4 Q. And the location where they had their Ministry of Defence, their
5 parliament, their President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, let's try first to see what we can learn
7 as far as facts are concerned. That's of course the difficulty if you
8 put a composite question that you suggest to the witness that he did not
9 believe that the HV would attack Knin, and then you added the centre of
10 gravity. Let's first try to find out whether the witness believed that
11 the HV would attack Knin and let's leave aside for a second whether that
12 was the centre of gravity.
13 THE WITNESS: Sir, we believed that the HV would attack Knin but
14 didn't have a high degree of certainty that it would occur on the 4th.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So timing -- you had doubt on the timing so soon but
16 not that the HV would attack Knin.
17 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. You believed at that time, didn't you, that any attack that came
21 from the HV was going to come in a traditional fashion from the east,
22 didn't you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, when the attack in fact took place, and this goes back to
25 the statement that you made in 2003 that's in D116, you noted they pulled
1 off the attack with a degree of expertise.
2 You said that, didn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you did not think on the evening of the 3rd that the HV had
5 that expertise, did you?
6 A. To be honest, I can't recall what I thought at that time on this
8 Q. Well, if you thought -- if you made a judgment that they had that
9 expertise, might you have acted differently?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So if you knew that they had the expertise that they demonstrated
12 on the 4th of August, that would not have given you reason to go to code
14 A. Not if I understand the context of your question, no.
15 Q. Well, in fact, sir, you misjudged what the situation was, on the
16 evening of the 3rd, didn't you?
17 A. On the evening of the 3rd there was no attack.
18 Q. Well, General, you didn't, in conjunction with General Foran,
19 declare a code red and bring the UN personnel into the compound, did you?
20 A. It is correct that we didn't declare a code red on the evening of
21 the 3rd and bring the UN personnel into the compound at that time.
22 Q. And if you knew that the attack was going to take place at 5.00
23 a.m. on the 4th of August, would you have declared a code red in the
24 evening hours of the 3rd.
25 A. It is speculative. Probably. But, once again, I would probably
1 have to certainly discuss that with the other folk who were there to see
2 what our thinking was at that time.
3 MR. KEHOE: Just to clarify this one answer, Your Honour, and I
4 don't want to repeat anything.
5 Q. Is it your testimony General that if you knew an attack was going
6 to take place on the 4th of August at 5.00 p.m. [sic] as we sit here it
7 is speculative whether or not would you have declared a code red?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, what the witness said and you are really
9 repeating your question, he said speculative to the extent, he could also
10 say hypothetical, and if you are answering a hypothetical question that
11 leads you almost always to speculation because he has testified now five
12 times he didn't know that, he didn't expect that to happen on the next
13 morning. He expected this to happen somewhere in the near future and I
14 must say the more I listen to you it is clear, that you consider that
15 this witness should have acted in a different way on the basis of the
16 knowledge he had. He has now explained to us what his knowledge was. He
17 explained what he did. And apparently you're -- you really think that he
18 should have acted differently. That is perfectly clear to the Chamber
20 So would you please come to the point for all of this, then we'd
21 like to hear that. If not, would you please move on to the next subject.
22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. If I might make a matter to the
23 transcript on line 24, it notes that in the page 20, it is correct that
24 we did declare and I think he missed -- General Leslie said, "we did not
25 declare." I believe the negative is missing from there.
1 JUDGE ORIE: 20,24.
2 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Judge, line 24, page 20.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It is it correct that we did not declare a code red
4 on the evening of the 3rd. Yes, that is perfectly clear that it is not
5 correct in the transcript at this moment and will be corrected.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Now, General, let us move, if we can to the events of the 4th.
9 Now, you noted for us that you were in a bunker and I believe
10 this testimony is at -- if I may. Page 1944, lines 21 through 25. You
11 noted that and I'm talking about line 21: "From the moment of the
12 initial barrage number approximately 6.00, I do not recall having any
13 time to actually watch where the shell fire was landing."
14 So, at least during that period of time, you don't have any idea
15 where these shells were going in Knin, do you?
16 A. No, sir, I do not. One minor correction. I was not in a bunker.
17 Q. I apologise. I think you had said you were walking around the
18 compound. But the point being that up until approximately 6.00 you
19 didn't know where the point these things were impacting, did you?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. So from 5.00 to 6.00 you have no knowledge of that?
22 A. 6.00 is an approximate time, sir.
23 Q. Now, after 6.00, and if we can turn to -- and this is from P84.
24 And if we can go to page 2 of this document. I'm sorry, it is again,
25 Your Honour this is the -- page 2, paragraph 2, because the sequence of
1 numbers is a little off.
2 Now, that top paragraph, and if we can start with the line:
3 "However," it is about one, two, three ... about ten lines down. If we
4 can blow that up just a bit.
5 Now, about ten lines -- actually it is about eight lines down,
6 you said: "However, at about 6.00 Bravo, I returned to my office to get
7 back to work and during breaks and speaking on the telephone or radio,
8 went out to the balcony of the third floor to observe the shell fire."
9 Do you see that sir?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Now, this is also the time-frame that you told us that you got
12 into, had gone down to the front gate and had got into an APC to travel
13 into Knin, isn't it?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And this is all in the 6.00 time-frame, right?
16 A. That's correct. Somewhere between before 6.00 and somewhere
17 before 7.00.
18 Q. Now, when you continue on here, you say: "The salvos of fire
19 appear to be by batteries of between four and six guns with most of the
20 fire grouped around the centre of town."
21 Is that accurate?
22 A. To the best of my knowledge, I wrote it and it was relatively
23 fresh in my mind, so yes.
24 Q. So in the 6.00 hour, most of the fire was directed towards the --
25 the centre of town, right?
1 A. Most, yes.
2 Q. Now, during this time-frame, sir, in addition to you talking on
3 the telephone, taking care of other personnel, making sure people were
4 safe, you were talking to the media as well, weren't you?
5 A. For a very short period of time. But I think the main
6 conversations with the media happened at around 6.45 or 7.00, but I can't
7 remember exactly.
8 Q. 6.45. Let's go to 1D170386.
9 Now, before we go to this particular item, if we can. Who did
10 you speak to, sir?
11 A. I'm sorry, in what context?
12 Q. Who from the media were you speaking to.
13 A. I'm sorry, I can't remember.
14 Q. Well, was it multiple news agencies?
15 A. I'm sorry, I cannot remember.
16 Q. Well, during the course of the 4th, you did in fact talk to
17 multiple media sources, both TV and print, didn't you?
18 A. At some points during the day, yes, but how many and in what
19 context and what time, I'm sorry, I can't remember.
20 Q. Well, let us go to this particular tape and this is a BBC tape
21 and as we see it is 7.04 on the morning of the 4th, London time which of
22 course would be 8.00 a.m. Zagreb/Knin time?
23 A. Okay.
24 MR. KEHOE: And we could play this.
25 [Videotape played]
1 "Short time ago we spoke to the UNPROFOR spokesman in Knin,
2 Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Leslie, he described how the offensive there
4 "At 0500 this morning, Knin, the capital of the Krajina was hit
5 by artillery and rocket shells. It was dark at that time, of course, the
6 center or the main point of impact appeared to be the center of Knin,
7 after 300 detonations we've lost count. Reports from our battalions
8 indicate that essentially every large urban center in the Krajina has
9 been hit by shell fire, starting between 5 and 5.30. As well the Croats
10 have launched their strikes on the town of Gracac. There's a lot of
11 shell fire. There has not been yet a lot of movement into the zone, so
12 we don't really have a clear picture on what the Croatian ground forces
13 are doing now but they certainly pounded the Serbian communities
14 "There's two or three pillars of fire and smoke in the centre of
15 Knin. We unfortunately had some of our people still sleeping downtown
16 when this happened and ... civilians mostly, and we sent our armoured
17 vehicles to collect them. The term controlled "chaos," from our view,
18 applies. The damage? It is very hard to assess, I mean, there's houses
19 that are destroyed, there's craters in the roads, it is not terribly
21 MR. KEHOE: Now --
22 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no.
23 MR. KEHOE:
24 Q. General, that interview is talking about what has been going on
25 over the recent hour since the attack took place, isn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you note in here that the mean point of impact was the centre
3 of town. Don't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You don't say -- and again, and there is it encompassing both the
6 6.00 time-frame that you observed as well as the 7.00 to 8.00 time-frame,
7 isn't it?
8 A. You will have to clarify that a bit.
9 Q. The interview took place approximately 8.00 a.m. Knin time,
10 didn't it?
11 A. All right. Yes, I think so. If you say it did.
12 Q. And you are describing events that took place between -- what you
13 observed between 5.00 a.m. and approximately 8.00 a.m., aren't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when you are describing the -- where the shells were falling,
16 you say the mean point of impact is the centre of town. Don't you?
17 A. I said that, yes.
18 Q. You didn't ever describe it as something that there were shells
19 falling all over the place. Did you?
20 A. I did not describe it as shells falling all over the place.
21 Q. Now, in your memo that you wrote days later, P84, you also don't
22 describe that the shells were falling all over the place, do you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. During this time-frame, sir -- and by the way, as we talk about
25 this, and reading the transcript. You went out on this one trip, is that
1 right, where you -- with these Jordanian to get some CIVPOL people and
2 some people jumped in the back and nothing significant happened, right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Now, General, you received a medal didn't you for participating
5 in rescuing 40 UN personnel?
6 A. I received the Meritorious Service Medal for meritorious
7 performance for my performance as Chief of Staff both in Sector South and
8 UNCRO. Meritorious service medals are not awarded for acts of bravery,
9 curage, or distinction, therefore a job done well.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that -- the next step that you are going
11 to access whether it was granted to this witness or not. Are there any
12 other matters you would like to deal with which are so far away from what
13 this case is really about, it is not about who gets medals for what.
14 MR. KEHOE: Well, Your Honour, I can talk to you outside the
15 presence of the witness of exactly what my basis of is for that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If there is anything then please come to your point
17 quickly, and --
18 MR. KEHOE: I will before the next break, I will talk to Your
19 Honour outside the presence of the witness exactly where I'm going with
20 that. I will postpone the questions until that time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. Now, during the course of the day, General, on the 4th, you were
24 in steady contact with your headquarters in Zagreb, didn't you ?
25 A. No, sir, I was not. The operations centre was in steady contact
1 with Zagreb. My remit, because General Foran had excellent command and
2 control because he was located in the OP centre my remit was to
3 essentially just take care of things in the headquarters location.
4 Q. Well, when the calls were coming back from Zagreb were you
5 discussing them with anyone such as General Foran and others?
6 A. When calls went into the operation centre if I was around, then,
7 yes, I would be brought into the loop. Every time I swung by the
8 headquarters building I would drop there and get an OPs update but I was
9 not personally in constant contact with Zagreb, which was your question.
10 Q. Well, when you went past the operations centre and were talking
11 to people who were in communication with Zagreb, were questions being
12 asked from Zagreb as to why Sector South had not declared a code red the
13 night before?
14 A. Not to my knowledge.
15 Q. Were they asking questions, why had UN personnel were still out
16 in the Knin community and not in the compound at the time the attack
18 A. Not to my knowledge.
19 Q. Well, they were being told, were they not, at the level of
20 shelling, that was transpiring, were they?
21 A. Yes, I know that a variety of operations updates were sent with a
22 high degree of frequency as to what we taught was going on.
23 Q. When you were informing Zagreb, were you also talking to various
24 media sources and describing to them the level of the shelling?
25 A. I was, as were many others.
1 Q. Now, during the same time -- by the way, who were the others that
2 were informing media sources that -- about the shelling, besides you?
3 A. Brigadier General Foran and Mr. Alan Roberts, I believe, who was
4 the sector information officer.
5 Q. Now during this same period of time General this is the period of
6 time when the protest letter is drafted, the morning of the 4th, isn't
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this is --
10 MR. KEHOE: If we could bring this up, P83.
11 Q. Now General this is the letter that the Prosecution put into
12 evidence as P83, the letter that was supposed to go to General Gotovina.
13 Did you read this letter before it went out?
14 A. I was aware that such a letter was going to be sent. I do not
15 recall reading it before it went out, as I believe you can see by the
16 nomenclature was drafted by the senior liaison officer.
17 Q. This letter, was it sent to UNCRO headquarters on the morning of
18 the 4th?
19 A. I believe it was.
20 Q. Was it sent to media sources on the morning of the 4th?
21 A. I do not know.
22 Q. Well, when you were talking to the media sources about what
23 happened on the 4th, did you tell these media sources that 1500 shells
24 had fallen on Knin during the 4th?
25 A. I may have. I can't recall, but I'm -- I might well have. That
1 number seems to resinate.
2 Q. And did you tell them that on the 5th, another 1500 shells had
3 fallen on Knin?
4 A. I don't know if I was precise. I think I said approximately.
5 Q. In fact, didn't you say that it was a conservative estimate, sir,
6 that 500 shells and I can direct to you your statement.
7 A. No, sir, I understand what I said and when I said it. But I
8 think it is an approximate figure and not an absolute.
9 Q. And, sir, you said that in your statements in 1996, 1997 several
10 times, 1998, you repeated the conservative estimate of 3.000 shells,
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And that is what you were telling Zagreb right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that is what you were telling the media?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor several
18 weeks ago?
19 A. I was.
20 Q. And in the course of that statement, you told the Prosecutor that
21 these were not personal estimates, didn't you?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. And so the number of projectiles that you told the media and
24 Zagreb and other sources, wasn't correct, was it?
25 A. Well, sir, these are approximate numbers. I cannot attest to
1 2099 or 3001 shells landing.
2 Q. Do you have any idea, General, how many projectiles actually
4 A. We have an approximation, sir. That is all.
5 Q. Sir, based on what you were -- by the way, before we even move to
6 that, were you telling, were you telling the media sources as well as
7 Zagreb that there were many, many people that died as a result of the
9 A. I'm certain I did.
10 Q. And did you tell them, sir, if I may, that -- and this is on the
11 1996 statement, page number 00527691, the death estimates of 300 to 500
12 personnel -- excuse me. A conservative estimate of the number of
13 artillery shells fired at Knin over four and five is 3.000. The result
14 is about 300 houses being damaged?
15 You don't know that either, do you?
16 A. I had no -- I did not see the house -- I did not see 300 houses
17 being damaged. It is an estimate.
18 Q. You didn't see -- but you were telling the media in Zagreb that
19 300 houses were being damaged?
20 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. This is moving fairly quickly
21 and sometime this is happens we're going from a reference in a statement
22 back to generic references to discusses with the media at various times
23 and I think the witness needs to know --
24 JUDGE ORIE: What we're referring to.
25 Mr. Kehoe, first of all, that -- the report which is now in
1 evidence already shows that figures used by this witness at first sight
2 appear not to be always very precise. If I just draw your attention to
3 the fact that he say during the first two hours, 300 projectiles were
4 fired and then the next line is that the rate of impact diminished to
5 about one round every few seconds. Now 300 rounds in two hours is on
6 round every 24 seconds so to say that is reduced by one round every few
7 seconds unless you consider a few seconds more than 24 seconds, that
8 already demonstrates that there seems to be a type of accuracy which
9 would need further explanation if he would rely on that.
10 I do agree with Mr. Tieger, that if we put to the witness that he
11 said something to the media, then of course the Chamber would have to
12 know what he actually said to the media to see whether this question is
14 At the same time, this Chamber is not blind and not deaf for what
15 was said to the media at that time. But at the same time our primary
16 focus should be on what happened and that giving information to the media
17 plays a role is not ignored, but let try to keep everything in balance,
18 that is that we first of all are interested in what happened, and to the
19 extent that what was said to the media adds something to that knowledge
20 or can tell us about wrong impression given by mistake or on purpose,
21 that's all well understood, and therefore I'm not saying that it is
22 irrelevant but we should try to keep the balance between what we are
23 looking at and first of all what happened.
24 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge, and if I just have some latitude
25 I think you will understand where I'm going in this regard.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it you're going in some direction, but
2 you're not going very quickly, it appears to us.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. And with regard to the rate of fire that Judge Orie just referred
6 to, in your statement of 12 August 1995, if we might clear that up, you
7 told the Prosecution for the first time several weeks ago that that rate
8 of fire should not have been taken literally, didn't you?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Now, let us go back to some of the items that you were talking to
11 at the time --
12 A. Sir, may I refer to a copy?
13 Q. I'm sorry, sir.
14 MR. KEHOE: Do we have copies? All of them ...
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
17 MR. KEHOE:
18 Q. General, did you also tell the people in Zagreb that as a result
19 of the shelling that three to 500 personnel of which the vast majority
20 were civilians predominantly women, children, and elderly were killed?
21 A. We were asked for a casualty estimate. Yes, we gave them an
22 estimate in that range of numbers.
23 Q. And upon what did you base that information that you gave to
24 Zagreb after the shelling on the 5th?
25 A. It was based on discussions amongst the staff. Based on what
1 they were interacting with a variety or the information they were
2 gleaning from a variety of the close to 1.000 Serbian displaced persons
3 who had ended up in our compound on the evening of the 4th. And it
4 was -- it was estimates.
5 Q. And, sir, had anybody done any investigation whatsoever to make a
6 determination as of 5 August 1995 that three to 500 people had been
7 killed as a result of the shelling?
8 A. No, sir, we were locked inside our camp and were unable to
9 conduct an investigation.
10 Q. Locked inside your camp, sir. You went to the hospital on the
12 A. Yes. But that was prior to the Croatians actually getting to the
13 front gate of Sector South. From the moment they arrived we were unable
14 to leave as I think has been clearly shown in a variety of news cameras.
15 Q. Sir, it's a fact --
16 MR. KEHOE: Let us move to Exhibit D61.
17 Q. This is a statement from Mr. Carl Bildt at the international
18 conference on the former Yugoslavia, if I may, talking about the attack
19 and it notes in the second page -- excuse me, the third paragraph:
20 "This" talking about the attack, "it will cast a dark shadow over Croatia
21 for a long time to come. Especially appalling is the shelling of the
22 civilian population now being reported."
23 Now those reports of the civilian population being shelled were
24 coming from you, weren't they?
25 A. I was one source amongst many.
1 Q. And you were the one source, the other source that it was coming
2 from were individuals in the Sector South compound, right?
3 A. Sir, if you recall -- if you're referring to "you" as the
4 collective of personnel in Sector South compound, then yes.
5 Q. This, sir, was being imparted to UN headquarters based on no
6 investigate at all, wasn't it?
7 A. At the time --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't quite understand the question.
10 MR. TIEGER: It seems to me the issue of investigate dealt
11 with --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you first asked on what basis this
13 witness gave his assessments and you asked whether there had been any
14 investigations and this gives the context I think of what happened here,
15 that there were no formal investigations nothing let's investigate this
16 or that but that information was gathered. That is at least what I
17 learned from your evidence in this respect until now.
18 Is that correctly understood.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we start analysing statements of all kinds of
21 other persons, are you aware of all the sources Mr. Bildt had available
22 before you gave this statement.
23 THE WITNESS: No, sir I'm not.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed Mr. Kehoe.
25 MR. KEHOE:
1 Q. As we move through the 4th there was still fighting taking place
2 in and around Knin between the ARSK and the HV, wasn't there?
3 A. No, sir, there was no fighting taking place in Knin on the 4th of
5 Q. There were a lot of Serb soldiers in Knin weren't there on the
6 evening of the 4th?
7 A. Perhaps it is definition when you say fighting that shelling or
8 is that direct combat.
9 Q. Let me re-ask my question and we'll start again.
10 Were there Serb soldiers in Knin throughout the 4th?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were there Serb soldiers moving through Knin throughout the 4th?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was there fighting still going on in the surrounding hills in --
15 in and around Knin in the evening hours of the 4th?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So the ARSK and the HV were fighting well, into the night of the
18 4th, weren't they?
19 A. I have no direct visual observation of such, but the reports that
20 we were getting from our battalions in the zone of separation and from
21 others, the UNMOs, would support that.
22 Q. Let me show you a late evening clip from BBC on the 8th that you
23 gave at 20 minutes to 11.00. Sorry, on the 4th of August of 1995. And
24 if I may this is again BBC beginning at 2340 on the 4th of August. And
25 it is 1D170387.
1 [Videotape played]
2 "REPORTER: We're joined now on the telephone by Colonel Andrew
3 Leslie who is in command of the UN detachment in Knin. Colonel Leslie is
4 the assault continuing, or has it gone quiet for the night?
5 "LESLIE: It is continuing but at a reduces tempo. It's still
6 the occasional shell landing in Knin. We still have reports of
7 fire-fighting all up and down the line, but I think there has been a
8 built of a pause while people are trying to sort themselves out,
9 replenish and deal with their casualties.
10 "REPORTER: In your judgment, are the Croats on the point of
11 taking the town.
12 "LESLIE: Taking Knin? No. We've had no reports of Croatians
13 being within direct fire range of Knin and there's still a lot of Serbs
14 in Knin and in the surrounding hills so ... there we go."
15 MR. KEHOE:
16 Q. So, General, as of 2340 Knin time, it was your conclusion that
17 Knin was not about to fall to the HV, wasn't it?
18 A. I'm not sure that's what I said exactly. Whatever words I used
19 at that time are the words that I felt to be true. I don't think I used
20 quite those words.
21 Q. Let's play it back?
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. I want to get it as accurate as possible.
24 A. Absolutely. Thank you.
25 MR. KEHOE: Judge, I'm just waiting for it to play.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm waiting for it to be played.
2 Who made it play last time? Would he please repeat what he or
3 she did at that moment.
4 MR. KEHOE: Judge, I think the transcript is locked too. Maybe
5 it would be a good time for a break and we can correct this and come back
6 to it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way of scrolling through the transcript
8 of what was just said so that -- oh.
10 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour I think I can read the transcript. I do
11 have the transcript page.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
13 MR. KEHOE:
14 Q. General, this is again at page 36, lines -- he keeps moving it.
15 At lines?
16 A. Sir for what it is worth. Line 17.
17 Q. The question comes from the reporter, can you just scroll down.
18 The question comes from the reporter. In your judgment are the Croats on
19 the point of taking the town?
20 And you respond:
21 "Taking Knin? No, we have had no reports of Croatians being
22 within direct fire range of Knin and there's still a lot of Serbs in Knin
23 and in the surrounding hills, so there we go."
24 My question to you was: As of 2340, almost midnight on the night
25 of the 4th, it was your conclusion or position that Knin was not about to
1 fall to the HV. Isn't that right?
2 A. Not at that specific point.
3 Q. And in this transcript, you used the term Serbs and I think you
4 say there are a lot of Serbs in Knin and in the surrounding hills. When
5 you say "Serbs" you're talking about Serb soldiers, weren't you?
6 A. I am trying to put myself back in that time and I can't recall.
7 Q. Well, you are talking about civilians would there and we are
8 talking about direct fire range, because the question -- your answer is
9 taking Knin, No, we have no reports of Croatians being in direct fire
10 range of Knin. Now in Croatians there, you are talking about the HV
11 soldiers, aren't you?
12 A. I would assume so, yes.
13 Q. And logically, as you begin, Croatian being in direct fire range
14 of Knin there are still a lot of Serbs in Knin and in the surrounding
16 Logically the word Serbs there being in the surrounding hills
17 you're talking about Serb soldiers, aren't you?
18 A. Not necessarily, sir, I can't recall to the frame of mind to what
19 I said. Serbs is Serbs and I don't make any distinction between
20 civilians and military in that statement.
21 Q. You don't make any differences between military and civilian, is
22 that right?
23 A. Not in the context of that statement.
24 Q. But you do make the distinction when talking about Croats you're
25 talking about soldiers?
1 A. I'm trying to think back to what I was thinking 12 years ago on a
2 media interview at midnight. It is really tough.
3 Q. I understand sir.
4 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I'm going to move on to another topic at
5 this point.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps take a longer pause that you usually do, Mr.
7 Kehoe, that is a pause for 25 minutes.
8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, should I move this now this particular
9 exhibit, or shall I wait until after the break.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think you played two portions of it.
11 MR. KEHOE: Actually, Judge, I think we have three to move it so
12 we can move this at the beginning of the next break.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Are we going to deal with them all as one.
14 Mr. Registrar I see you're nodding, no, you prefer to have them all
16 Then Mr. Tieger is there any objections against the ones we've
17 seen until now.
18 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal with the exhibits. Apart from the videos
22 there is still the outgoing cable, Mr. Tieger.
23 Mr. Registrar, could you already assign a number to that.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: First, the document which was the outgoing cable by
1 and now I ...
2 Mr. Registrar, or Mr. Kehoe perhaps you could help us -- assigned
3 by Mr. Bildt.
4 MR. KEHOE: No, the first is a outgoing cable from Mr. Annan to
5 Mr. Akashi dated 3 August, it is a two-page document.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That has not yet received a number.
7 Any objection Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar that would be number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D121, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. D121 has been admitted into evidence.
12 And then the next one I think is the Bildt document.
13 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, that was in.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That was in. Then we have then the two videos. The
15 first one, both videos, 4th of August. One in the morning hours at in
16 the morning hours and the other one in the late evening hours.
17 The first one, Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, just for the sake of clarity this
19 is the video numbered 1D170386 and this becomes D122.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Objections?
21 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D122 is admitted into evidence, then we have the
23 second video-clip, Mr. Registrar that would be.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is document ID 1D170387 and it
25 becomes D123.
1 MR. TIEGER: No objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D123 is admitted into evidence.
3 We resume at a quarter past 4.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I asked to start without the presence of the
8 The Chamber was briefed about a conversation that has taken place
9 during the break between you, Mr. Kehoe, and you, Mr. Tieger, as to the
10 reasons to put further questions for the -- for the reasons for which the
11 witness received a medal.
12 That is -- so we have superficial knowledge of which direction
13 you would like to go in that respect.
14 There is, as such, no problem, if you want to go in that
15 direction. But this is an general observation. That is, do everything
16 that you do in approximately a third of the time you take for it. It is
17 not very efficient what you are doing and it might be that sometimes you
18 expect a trier of fact not to catch the issue quickly and that would you
19 have to go over the same ground for a couple of times and that is really
20 not necessary. I just want to tell you that.
21 And therefore, no problem to deal with the matter but try to do
22 it really as efficiently as possible, come to the point right away, no
23 ritual bounces as I often say. Let's get to the point right away and
24 let's also not forget that this case is not about mistakes or things
25 witnesses have done wrong in the past. Of course, if there are any
1 issues that shed additional light on reliability or credibility of course
2 you can deal with the matter, but the core of this case is that this
3 chamber hears evidence about what happened at that time, and of course
4 also that the Chamber receives relevant information which assists us in
5 assessing credibility and reliability, but try to find a balance and do
6 it more quickly.
7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We -- Madam Usher, would you please escort the
9 witness into the courtroom.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Leslie.
12 Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.
13 MR. KEHOE:
14 Q. General, directing your attention to the 5th of August, the
15 fighting between the HV and the ARSK continued in the 5th of August as
16 well, didn't it?
17 A. It did.
18 Q. And you noted that soldiers and military equipment were moving
19 through Knin on the 5th, weren't they?
20 A. Sir, I'm trying to recall if there was actual soldiers and
21 military equipment moving through Knin on the 5th and the answer is yes,
22 in the very early hours of the morning. I did not see any soldiers or
23 equipment certainly when I was downtown at approximately 9.00 in the
24 morning of the 5th.
25 Q. Well, there was a tank in front of your compound returning -- an
1 ARSK tank in front of the UN compound that was returning fire on the 5th,
2 wasn't it?
3 A. I don't recall that.
4 MR. KEHOE: Let us go to 1D170076.
5 Q. This is a second edition Toronto Star article. If we can just
6 scroll up a bit. And I think we're talking about the third paragraph.
7 You noted that the Croats have very close. Serb tanks are returning fire
8 right outside our compound and artillery is impacting inside Knin.
9 Residents are gone."
10 Now, the Serb tanks that you are referring to, of course, are
11 ARSK tanks aren't they?
12 JUDGE ORIE: It appears to be a newspaper article in which there
13 appears to be a quote. Let's first ask the witness whether this is what
14 he said and then we'll ask him what he meant. Yes.
15 Is this you're quoted here in apparently a -- I can't see it was
16 on the top.
17 MR. KEHOE: The Toronto --
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Toronto, yes. Is this -- are you correctly
19 quoted here.
20 THE WITNESS: Sir, I'm sorry, I can't recall.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can you imagine that you have given such a
22 statement to the press, looking at the content.
23 THE WITNESS: I can imagine something similar to this, but I do
24 not recall a Serb tank ever being right outside our compound. I do not
25 recall saying that. I have no memory of doing so.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now let me also, Mr. Kehoe, look at your first
2 question. ARSK tank in front of the compound. It was returning fire ...
3 Yes, could we move on a little bit so that we see the -- what
4 appears above "body." Yes.
5 Yes, I'm trying to understand, Mr. Kehoe, where I find a
6 reference to the date. Apart from the date of the newspaper, but I'm
7 just trying to find it.
8 MR. KEHOE: If you look in this, Your Honour, it says the Croats
9 are very close. Serb tanks are returning fire right outside our compound
10 and artillery is impacting.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You were --
12 MR. KEHOE: Early this morning. It says early this morning from
14 JUDGE ORIE: Early this morning. Yes, that means that we are
15 talking about early this morning. Yes. That's clear.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. KEHOE: I won't belabour this, Your Honour.
18 Q. General, but you don't recall this?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 Q. Let me turn --
21 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, may I have this marked and received in
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, earlier the registry mistakenly
2 skipped number D120. Therefore, this document will become D120.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D120 is admitted into evidence.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
5 MR. KEHOE:
6 Q. Let me direct your attention, General, to 65 ter 4696.
7 And, General, if we can move to page 3 of that document.
8 Now, General, if we can just and tell me if you page your way
9 through, this is an UNMO report from the 5th of August. And on the third
10 page under -- excuse me, page 4. I'm sorry, I have been corrected. It
11 is page 4.
12 And we're talking about CanBat and the UNMO team Gracac, so if
13 can we just move that up a bit.
14 Now, it notes in this document there are any number of targets.
15 And did you get information on the 5th that these pieces of equipment
16 were moving towards Knin?
17 A. I do not recall doing so. I'm looking at the time, and if you'll
18 forgive me sir --
19 Q. Take your time, sir.
20 A. If I can just see when this was sent or, more importantly
21 received at UNCRO headquarters. So if you just go back up to the top,
22 you should have a date, time group.
23 Q. I can read to you General on the first page. On the 5th, it is
24 1900 Bravo.
25 A. So that is on the 5th in the evening. That's illogical, sir.
1 Q. I can go to the front page, sir. If you want to go to the front
2 page you can check the time and date.
3 A. The hostilities were over on the 5th so to have Serbian forces
4 moving through Knin at 1900 hours on the 5th is ...
5 Q. If can he with go to the actual time sequence under CanBat and if
6 we can go back to page 4, I can give you a more direct time as to when
7 this was observed.
8 A. Thank you.
9 Q. If we can go to page 4.
10 Now it notes in the first sequence that this was reported
11 apparently at 0535, that's the first observation, of some tanks and other
12 mechanised -- pieces of mechanised equipment?
13 A. Mm-hm.
14 Q. And if you look down I think you will see that the next item is
15 at 0530, as we move towards the bottom of that page, there's another one
16 from 0550, and you see the item towards the third -- the second-to-last
17 line that the heading towards Knin. If we turn to the next page,
18 Mr. Registrar, and if I'm going too fast?
19 A. No it is quite already. May I interject occasionally.
20 Q. Absolutely?
21 A. Can you specify whether equipment is Serbian or Croat.
22 Q. I do believe that the inset at the beginning is ARSK, sir.
23 A. I'm sorry, I missed that.
24 Q. If we go back to the CanBat line, if we go back one page. On the
25 CanBat report, I believe he is talking about RSK items, you see that on
1 the line?
2 A. I see the first line, agreed. The subsequent ones I do not.
3 Q. Let's go on to the next page.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Which page are we now on, Mr. Kehoe.
5 MR. KEHOE: We are now on page 5. You are on page 5.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that's 84, last two digits of the ERN.
7 MR. KEHOE: No 85.
8 JUDGE ORIE: 85, yes, which is the fifth page of this document,
10 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
11 A. Sir I have the document. I stand ready for the questions.
12 Q. And these documents reflect a report, a reporting that is
13 equipment moving towards Knin?
14 A. It does.
15 Q. And my question to you is were you aware, if you know that the
16 RSK was moving equipment of this magnitude if it is from RSK?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER: Obviously my concern was building into the question
19 that the equipment was RSK. Now I think Mr. Kehoe amended that to
20 indicate a conditional question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thinks are going a bit too quickly for me at this
22 moment. We earlier turned to page 4 and you were referring to the first
23 line of the CanBat portion of the document as a demonstration that it was
24 RSK rather than anything else.
25 Now let me try to understand what this paragraph 3 CanBat 1
1 report, how it is structured. It says: "CanBat 1," reported, and then
2 we get several elements of the report the ARSK reference.
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is from --
5 MR. TIEGER: I apologise for interrupting. But I don't have the
6 hard copy of this I'm trying to follow on screen and --
7 JUDGE ORIE: So do I. You know that in e- court you can get your
8 own copy and move it as you wish. That's what I'm doing at this moment.
9 The reference to RSK is within the first part of the report.
10 MR. KEHOE: That's correct sir.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore your suggestion is that what follows
12 in the other elements of the report would be covered by this reference to
13 RSK. That's at least how I understood your questions.
14 MR. KEHOE: And it is not the only reference and what I taking
15 the General to was yet the next page, the page that -- and it does have
16 several references to ARSK.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
18 MR. KEHOE: If we go down do --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever there is a reference to in a specific
20 portion then it is clear that this portion refers to a certain armed
21 force. If there's not, then the question first should be put, What armed
22 forces or equipment of what armed forces we are talking about.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
25 Q. If we just move down a bit on that other page, General, and I'm
1 looking at an entry again with CanBat reporting on the 5th at 1300 near
2 Kistanje, en route towards Knin.
3 Do you see that sir?
4 A. No, sir, I have Croatian shelling Canadian OPs on my screen.
5 Q. If we could move up a little bit.
6 A. Thank you.
7 Q. You see the entry, sir, at 1300 right there. Is that here?
8 Should be?
9 A. I see it yes, thank you.
10 Q. And in that page we are talking about, if we may, again 1300 at
11 05 near Kistanje?
12 A. I see it.
13 Q. [Overlapping speakers] CanBat reporter ARSK --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I have not found it yet. Could you please guide me
15 a bit.
16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Do you see where it says 1 Sagger
17 and just go up three lines at it says at approximate.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have got it.
19 MR. KEHOE: Sorry, Judge, there is no neat way to do it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I said earlier that we catch certain issue very
21 quickly. I am now demonstrating that we sometimes do not.
22 THE WITNESS: So my comment would this occurred at 1300 hours on
23 the 5th. It is highly unlikely that these ARSK weapons systems were in
24 Knin because I can attest -- I was there that the Croatian was right in
25 Knin and certainly at our front gate before 100 hours and the route from
1 Kistanje down must inevitably go by the front gate of the camp. So my
2 conclusion without knowing full details is that those weapons systems
3 never made it into the town of Knin.
4 Q. And let me just take you to one item.
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I just -- try to understand, we are approximate
6 time is given near, Kistanje en-route towards Knin, CanBat report, ARSK
7 is a reference to the armed force, 325 I take it that's the number and
8 then T-34, T-35 sounds to me as these would be tanks. Is that correctly
9 understood? And then again three to five, T-54, 55, which sounds as
10 tanks to me as well.
11 MR. KEHOE: They are, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And then five times six M55 three X, five times a
13 six MS -- M55 stands for? I'm just trying to understand what we're
14 talking about.
15 MR. KEHOE: I was going to you know follow up with the, Judge --
16 with the General and ask what type equipment generally we're talking
17 about here.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't know that was still to follow.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
21 Q. General and I understand this is the first time you have seen
22 this document, I take it?
23 A. Sir, if I have seen it before, I cannot recall seeing it.
24 Q. Fair enough. Give us an idea and the Chamber an idea, if you
25 could, based on your expertise what type of equipment we're talking about
2 A. Would you like me to restrict comments to the subparagraph or the
3 contact was reported at 1300 on the 5th?
4 Q. That would be a good place to start, sir.
5 A. Understood, so this is a Canadian observation post sending radio
6 message and text messages to Sector South headquarters and informing the
7 UNMO chain that they have identified as of 1.00 on the 5th, five medium
8 battle tanks, T-34/35, three or five slightly larger bigger tanks, five
9 self-propelled systems. Sagger refers to a anti-tank guided missile
10 system. A BRDM is essentially a four-wheeled armoured car of which two
11 of these have an anti-tank system traditionally mounted on their top.
12 And three to five CP vehicles -- CP is the more or less accepted military
13 abbreviation for command post. Two times ten-tonne trucks with trailers
14 is self-explanatory. Two to three T-12s. T-12s are an anti-tank gun;
15 very long barrel, very low. And 12 APC; APC refers to armoured personnel
17 Q. That is one entry. This does indicate to you, General, that the
18 ARSK had weapons in the area at least in the afternoon of the 5th of
19 August, 1995.
20 A. Sir, it indicates that where these things were reported those
21 weapons systems were but it does not to my mind that they were in or in
22 very close proximity to Knin.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I earlier invited you, Mr. Kehoe, to be very clear
24 on what bullet points a reference to ARSK is appearing.
25 You have read this now, Mr. Leslie. I see that the time
1 reference at approximately 1300 hours that then a reference is made to
2 ARSK equipment and then we see a new bullet point where the Sagger starts
3 is that still since there is no new time is that the time and would be
4 included in the information in the bullet point just above that, or how
5 do you interpret that? I just don't know.
6 THE WITNESS: Sir, I would suggesting it is the former. In other
7 words, as Defence counsel is claiming, I agree with him, the way it is
8 currently crafted. The ARSK at sub-bullet 0513 Bravo, then you have ARSK
9 3- everything after that up until the next time block is probably the
10 Canadians referring to ARSK equipment and personnel.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Same armed forces and same time.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, we will offer this exhibit into
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: No objection.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D124, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you and D124 is admitted into evidence.
21 Please proceed Mr. Kehoe.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. Now the General in charge of the RSK was General Mrksic, right,
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And he in fact didn't leave Knin until the morning of the 5th.
2 Isn't that right?
3 A. Sir, I don't know. There -- I didn't know at the time and there
4 are varying opinions - that's all they are, opinions, that flowed back
5 and forth between those who were closely involved in the issue.
6 Q. Do you recall telling the Office of the Prosecutor in the 16th of
7 July of 1998 that General Mrksic took commander of the ARSK in
8 mid-July until he fled on the morning of the 5th of August 1995?
9 A. Yes, sir, and I was not speaking from a point of view of personal
10 fact. I did not see him flee. This is what others told me.
11 Q. And likewise, you noted when you went into a building at one
12 point in this time-frame that you went into this building and you saw
13 that a shell had hit and you actually saw a dead body on the ground. Do
14 you recall that.
15 A. I do.
16 Q. And you told us yesterday that that took place on the evening of
17 the 4th?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Back in 1997 you in fact noted that that took place on the
20 morning of the 5th. Didn't you?
21 A. That 1997 statement is -- has got some inconsistencies which I
22 have tried to correct. That is the one that I received, I beg your
23 pardon, gave in 1997 by dictation and it was signed 1999. I fully admit
24 I was not as attentive as I should have been in reviewing the two-year
25 old transcript for which I apologise.
1 Q. And in fact, you did say in that 1997 statement that this took
2 place at the government house, this event took place at the government
3 house on the morning of the 5th?
4 A. And once again, sir, that is inaccurate. It took place on the
5 evening of the 4th. And it was at what I call the ARSK headquarters
6 which is not the Ministry of Defence and it is not the government house.
7 Q. So when you gave the statement in 1997, you had the location
8 wrong and the date wrong?
9 A. That is correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Totally superfluous question.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. KEHOE:
15 Q. Now, General, the body that you saw, was it bodies or body?
16 A. Single.
17 Q. Again in 1997 you said it was several dead bodies in the lobby
18 and I'm referring to the 1997 statement of 00884727?
19 A. Sir, I admit that that statement was not edited as I should have.
20 I apologise. I saw one dead person dressed in some semblance of military
22 Q. Now, let us move on and the 5th was the day of your hospital
23 visit. Is that correct, sir?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And you noted when I asked you for an individual that could
1 verify this you gave me the same of a Sergeant Marcotte. Do you remember
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you said that he got a medal for his work at the hospital.
5 Is that right?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Let me put on the screen 1D170426. Blow that up a bit.
8 Can you read that General?
9 A. I can. Thank you.
10 Q. That's the Sergeant Marcotte that you were talking about, isn't
12 A. It is.
13 Q. And it doesn't say anything in that citation about receiving a
14 medal about going to the hospital on the 5th of August, does it?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. In fact it says that he got a medal for going to get some --
17 retrieve some Kenyans who were located in the area of hostilities and
18 transport them out?
19 A. That is correct. Might I be allowed to explain, subject to your
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
22 THE WITNESS: I wrote up Sergeant Marcotte's recommendation for
23 that specific act, and it was approximately two pages in length. It was
24 in English and it was submitted to his home battalion, battalion of the
25 Royal 22nd regiment. Almost 18 months went by and in those days the
1 responsibility of the author the originator was to write up the citation
2 and then other personnel would come up with the actual words that were to
3 be used on the allocation or on the scroll that's presented.
4 I was with the Sergeant when he was awarded. The first time we
5 actually saw that section of words was when it was read aloud and there's
6 a similar inconsistency in the meritorious decoration that I have. We
7 approached our chain of command through an officer called
8 Lieutenant-General Roi [phoen], who was deputy chief of Defence staff and
9 we were told it is close enough. Sergeant Marcotte was not involved at
10 all with the Kenyans. Sector South and Knin was not being bombed, and he
11 was not involved in transported wounded Kenyan soldiers, he was involved
12 in transporting wounded Serbian civilians.
13 I'm very sorry to have taken so long.
14 Q. General, you did tell us yesterday and this at page 210, 2010,
15 when I asked you at line 20:
16 "General do you know the name of anyone who was with you?
17 Answer: Yes, actually now I do, Sergeant Marcotte, who was the Canadian
18 Sergeant accompanied me on the trip and for that specific sequence of
19 events he was awards the meritorious service medal?"
20 A. And sir that is it accurate and truthful. He did accompany me.
21 I can't - once again may I elaborate or not?
22 Q. Sure?
23 A. I can't give you the name or names of anybody who may have seen
24 me leave the compound inside an armoured vehicle which has no windows,
25 though it's logical to assume there must be some folk who saw us return,
1 speaking specifically of the incident you've raised on it's 5th of
2 August, because we unloaded approximately 26 wounded Serbs in the middle
3 of the compound. The vehicles were assembled down by the front gate so
4 that is perhaps why we were out of sight, out of mind. But I am
5 absolutely confident that if you can continue your investigations you
6 will be able to find individuals that saw us do those activities.
7 Q. So you said if we research the back documents on Sergeant
8 Marcotte we will find no mention of him rescuing Kenyans?
9 A. Sir, his narrative here, I think I've already explained, the
10 background documents which I submitted, which I submitted to his
11 battalion may not be the ones that actually got up to Government House.
12 I have no control over that process.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe before we continue, could you tell me
14 exactly where I find that there were Kenyans that were in this
15 meritorious service decorations.
16 MR. KEHOE: If we move down, Judge, you start the second
17 sentence -- actually it's the second sentence, which is somewhat long.
18 Says on August 5th while the Croatian forces engaged in an attack against
19 the city of Knin which was becoming bombed.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, I see the reference to Kenyan battalion
21 area of hostilities, but not about Kenyans being -- because the witness
22 said something about not Kenyans, Serb civilians, whatever, but in this
23 document and it is not for the second time that you make that part of
24 your question, I did not see anyone but I look at it now for the first
25 time I see -- I do not see that it were Kenyans that were --
1 MR. KEHOE: I was referring to the Kenyan area of responsibility.
2 Thinking that is was the Kenyans that they were picking up, UN personnel,
3 it's going into five members of the section and that was the deduction I
4 came to. My point is at that this was contrary to what the General said
5 yesterday as to what he got a medal for and who he was with. But I will
6 move on.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Let me stay with just this particular incident.
10 I mean, you testified for us that you brought patients to the UN?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were they soldiers?
13 A. I don't know. Most of them were -- hmm. Most of them were in no
14 state to identify their profession. The ambulatory ones, no. To the
15 best of my recollection and it has been a long time, I don't believe any
16 of the ambulatory patients were soldiers. Some of those who were
17 unconscious might have been.
18 Q. So I mean those individuals that might have been you were taking
19 them from a hospital and bringing them to the UN compound?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Why were you doing that, sir?
22 A. We had been approached that morning by a Serbian doctor who
23 worked at the hospital, and he had indicated that there was no power,
24 there was no light, no supplies, and essentially that the staff had left,
25 and he and a male nurse were those that remained. He had left the male
1 nurse at the hospital. He came to our compound to ask for assistance.
2 As the attending physician to move his patients to Sector South military
3 facilities and the area commander made the decision to -- to go ahead.
4 Q. Was it within the UN mandate to move soldiers in any fashion?
5 A. Sir, I have not actually stated that these personnel were
6 soldiers. Have I said that I don't know if any were soldiers.
7 Q. My question is, is it within the UN mandate to move soldiers.
8 A. Well, certainly within our mandate to move UN soldiers.
9 Q. The -- when you were working for the UN, in Sector South, was it
10 within your mandate to move either HV soldiers?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Leslie, I think the previous question was clear.
12 Mr. Kehoe was clearly referring to the moving soldiers, not UN personnel.
13 And I think you understood that. And you gave an answer which was fully
14 correct, but ignored what the gist of the question was.
15 Would you please carefully listen to the questions an answer
17 Please proceed Mr. Kehoe.
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. General, can you answer that question?
20 A. No, it was not within the mandate to move soldiers from any of
21 the warring factions.
22 Q. Now, you mentioned likewise on the 5th that there was an event
23 that took place at the gate of the UN compound where you were trying to
24 get out with other UN personnel and you were stopped by HV soldiers who
25 had come into the town. Do you recall that?
1 A. I do.
2 MR. KEHOE: And let us go bring up 1D170374. There is again a
3 video Your Honour. We have provided the booth with transcripts --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, has the document which is still on my
5 screen at least already been tendered.
6 MR. KEHOE: No I will turned it now, Your Honour.
7 A. I apologise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour, no objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes Exhibit D125.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D125 is admitted into evidence.
13 [Videotape played]
14 "LESLIE: Tell him that I'm Colonel Leslie and the Chief of Staff
15 of Sector South, okay?
16 "TRANSLATOR: Yes, I told him, but I'm trying to explain who you
18 "LESLIE: Okay, good. We would like to freedom of movement to go
19 through the city to make sure there is no ethnic cleansing."
20 "TRANSLATOR: Well now there is some smaller actions.
21 "LESLIE: Not a problem. Tell him we're professional soldiers
22 and we accept the risk. We'd like to go now.
23 "TRANSLATOR: Yeah, but I want to finish, please.
24 "LESLIE: No, no, it's okay.
25 "TRANSLATOR: And also we cannot take that risk that one of UN
1 soldiers would be hurt.
2 "LESLIE: We've already had several UN soldiers hurt. And I
3 believe it's very important that we get out there to ensure that
4 everything is being done according to the laws of war. If he objects to
5 that then perhaps we have some serious problems.
6 "TRANSLATOR: We don't want to take that risk because one of UN
7 soldiers can be hurt from the other side, other soldiers -- and also they
8 could said that it was made by [Indiscernible] soldiers.
9 "LESLIE: Tell the Colonel thank you for his concern. Tell him
10 the international community and the media are very interested in what's
11 going on in Knin right now. We are getting on average 15 to 20 calls
12 every ten minutes from CNN, Reuters, IPA, ITA, and unfortunately we have
13 to tell them that we are blockaded here in the camp and we have no idea
14 what the Croatian army is doing with the civilian population in the camp.
15 "TRANSLATOR: [Indiscernible]
16 "LESLIE: Good, please. We're not asking -- we're here to -- I
17 beg your pardon --
18 "TRANSLATOR: But he already said, we don't like to take that
19 risk because UN soldiers might be hurt of the other side" --
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. Now, General, if I may, I'm sorry.
22 Now, General, this video, there is some -- did you see some
23 difference between what you were saying and what was being translated to
24 the Croatian officer?
25 A. Minor nuances.
1 Q. At one point in the interview, I believe and I'll paraphrase what
2 you were saying and we can go back and check, that you want to go out and
3 make sure that the Croatian army is complying with the laws of war, and
4 it is translated back to him that you want to go out and see for
5 yourself. Did you see that discrepancy?
6 A. No. Sir, I take your word for it, but no I did not note it.
7 Q. And during the course of this, there is an discussion where he is
8 talking about enemy shelling on the 5th of August, and not wanting any
9 UNCRO soldiers wounded.
10 Do you remember that?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Now, there was in fact ARSK shelling in the afternoon of the 5th
13 of August, wasn't there?
14 A. In Knin?
15 Q. Fired into Knin.
16 A. I'm not aware of that. You are certainly can't recall it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER: First of all, I have a problem with the previous
19 compound question and what it is that the witness was actually recalling
20 and that is whether it was the desire not to have -- the expressed desire
21 not to have UNCRO soldiers wounded or references to enemy shelling on the
22 5th of August and --
23 MR. KEHOE: I can go back and play it and stop it. So if we go
24 back to the beginning and I'll just stop it at that time.
25 [Videotape played]
1 "LESLIE: Tell him that I'm Colonel Leslie and the Chief of Staff
2 of Sector South, okay.
3 "THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I told him, but I'm trying to explain to
4 you who is he.
5 "LESLIE: Okay, good. We would like to freedom of movement to go
6 through the city to make sure there is no ethnic cleansing."
7 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] it says that he is asking that he
8 would like you ...
9 MR. KEHOE:
10 Q. And what she translates, General, is he is asking he would like
11 you to allow him freedom of movement.
12 Now there is nothing in that translation that says anything about
13 ethnic cleansing, is there?
14 A. No.
15 MR. KEHOE: Continue on, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, we are talking about different levels of
17 translation. We hear the words spoken. They are apparently translated
18 by a -- by an interpreter, where I do not know, because that's then
19 translated back again into English, and if there's any inaccurate
20 translation, then, on the basis of what -- of your questioning at this
21 moment of Mr. Leslie, I cannot identify where the problem is, whether
22 it's the translation -- the interpreter who translate wrongly on that it
23 is translated back into English not accurately. That is a puzzle for me,
24 just for me to know.
25 MR. KEHOE: I do understand, Judge, I do think that I will tell
1 you as an officer of the court our staff has been over this at some
2 length and the difficulty in the translation is --
3 JUDGE ORIE: These are specifically the kind of things I would
4 appreciate if the parties could agree on that. It is just a technical
5 issue. We don't have to spend time on it in court. If you play it and
6 say here's a joint statement by Defence and Prosecution saying in this
7 and this respect what is said is not an accurate translation. Then it
8 takes you 15 seconds to deal with it. Parties can agree on it, it is one
9 of the beautiful areas where there should be no dispute.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. If we can continue on, General.
13 [Videotape played]
14 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] so that can he see what is going on
15 in this city. If possible, we would like to move our vehicles out. I
16 must tell you that due to activity there is still shooting going in the
17 vicinity that is still dangerous for the time being and we need to wait
18 for an additional period of time.
19 "LESLIE: Not a problem, tell him we're professional soldiers and
20 we accept that risk, we would like to go now.
21 "TRANSLATOR: Yeah, but I want to finish, please.
22 "LESLIE: No, not it's okay.
23 "TRANSLATOR: He says that he understands, he is a professional
24 soldier and he is prepared to take the risk.
25 The Croatian army cannot take the risk and cannot allow for a
1 single member of UNPROFOR, UNCRO become a casualty in the area.
2 "Translator: But we can't take that risk and also we cannot take
3 that risk that one of the UN soldiers be hurt.
4 "LESLIE: We've already had several UN soldiers hurt.
5 "TRANSLATOR: But we already had a several of UN soldiers hurt.
6 "LESLIE: -- we've already had several UN soldiers hurt.
7 "TRANSLATOR: But we've already had several UN soldiers hurt.
8 "LESLIE: -- out there to ensure that everything is being done
9 according to the laws of war.
10 "TRANSLATOR: The most important thing would be for us to go out
11 and see what's going on so as to be able to convince ourselves of what is
12 going on."
13 MR. KEHOE:
14 Q. Now, General, if I may, the comment that you made on the laws of
15 war and we will clarify this but from the translation that we have it
16 doesn't appear that that translator translated exactly what you said,
17 does it.
18 A. I agree.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. KEHOE: Continue.
21 [Videotape played]
22 "LESLIE: -- we have some serious problems.
23 "TRANSLATOR: He says if you object to that then we will assume
24 that there are more serious problems. I already said that we do not want
25 to take any responsibility for a single wounded UNPROFOR member who may
1 be wounded by the enemy fire.
2 "I apologise, and then this could be attributed to the members of
3 the Croatian army.
4 "LESLIE: Tell the Colonel thank you for his concern.
5 "TRANSLATOR: Thank you for your concern. This is it the least
6 of our ...
7 "LESLIE: -- international community and the media are have
8 interested in what is going on.
9 "TRANSLATOR: All the world media are interested in the situation
11 "LESLIE: -- 15 to 20 calls every ten minutes from the CNN--
12 "TRANSLATOR: They say that between to 15 to 19 calls from all
13 over the world about what is going on and unfortunately they cannot tell
14 them, we have to tell them that we are blocked. And we don't know what
15 the Croatian army is doing at the moment what is going on in the streets.
16 We are in constant contact with our superior command. I have not
17 finished. I have not finished.
18 He hasn't finished.
19 As soon as our superior command concludes that this area is safe
20 for UNCRO members and that they cannot be wounded by the enemy shells
21 then they will certainly be given freedom of movement."
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. In that second review General on some very key areas that you
24 were interested in it does appear that there was a lack of communication,
25 doesn't there?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, with regard to the issue of UNCRO soldiers being wounded, I
3 was asking you a question about in fact do you recall if there was
4 shelling coming into Knin by the RSK in the afternoon of the 5th of
6 A. No, I do not recall such shelling having occurred.
7 MR. KEHOE: If I could put -- I will tender this exhibit, Your
8 Honour, at this time, the video that we just played.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to receive a -- a joint
12 statement by the parties on what kind of mistakes there are in the
13 translation, whether this is all -- if there is any dispute about what
14 has been said or how it was translated then the Chamber will receive that
15 information as well. And I add to that there was a certain portion in
16 this -- in this video-clip, I think it was translated not exactly the
17 same way by our interpreters and -- compared to how it was translated on
18 the screen by the television, I take it the BBC, that was where
19 difference was between I assume or I presume, that there will be major
21 Now it was unclear to me whether that was a reference to major
22 problems caused by not allowing free movement or it was a suggestion or a
23 reference that the denial of free movements would be an indicator that
24 there would be major problems.
25 That is not clear to me at this moment. If the parties got agree
1 on how to understand this, there would also be appreciated by the
3 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, we will take your direction.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Mr. Registrar you were about to assign a
5 number to this video.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This goes in as D126, Your Honours.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Turning your attention to D89.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I note my words are not always very important but
10 admission is important and it does not appear on the transcript.
11 So D126 is admitted into evidence and I do not envy the job of
12 our transcribers.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. KEHOE: If I can -- if I can turn to page 4 of that document,
15 Mr. Monkhouse. And I would like the third beginning at about 051500?
16 Q. General, I would like you to look at that insert for 05 -- by the
17 way before we do this what time of day was this conversation that you had
18 with the folks in front of the gate, if you know, just approximately.
19 A. Sir, I'm sorry, I can't recall. It was not the first
20 conversation with the HV representatives because it took a while for the
21 colonel to show up. So I'm sorry, I can't recall.
22 Q. Okay, sir. If we can just address ourselves to this insert that
23 notes at about 05 at 1500 ARSK soldiers of unknown strength were seen
24 occupying defensive positions in the general area of Strmica and gives
25 the grid reference tanks and mortaring were seen in the same positions at
1 051815 they fired 12 rounds of artillery from Strmica towards Knin.
2 Now, General, were you aware that there were reports coming into
3 UN headquarters Sector South that the ARSK was firing in the afternoon of
4 the 5th into Knin?
5 A. Sir --
6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, if there's -- if Mr. Kehoe is aware of
9 additional reports, I think they should be put to the witness or not
10 included in the question.
11 MR. KEHOE: Well --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
13 MR. KEHOE: Judge, I'm asking this is an instances, I suspect
14 that given a fact that a war was taking place that this was not the only
15 incident and I am -- with this particular item in mind, I was -- I'm
16 asking the General, just generally was he aware if there was any shelling
17 coming from the RSK into Knin.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You were asking about reports, I think, and not
19 about -- but let's not -- if we would discuss it at this moment it would
20 certainly not serve the interests of hearing evidence in the most
21 efficient way. I will make an observation about it at a later moment.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. KEHOE:
24 Q. General, if you can.
25 A. Sir, was not aware of reports that fire was being directed
1 towards Knin and I note in this document it does say towards and not
3 Q. Okay, sir. If I can just ask you one other question from that --
4 that video that we looked at, D126.
5 You said that you had -- were getting 10 to 15 calls from the
6 press and then mentioned, I think CNN Reuters, I believe you mentioned a
7 few other news outlets. Were you the one talking to them?
8 A. No, in the main it was Mr. Alan Roberts and he had a variety of
9 assistants, so, no.
10 Q. Did you take to any of them, sir?
11 A. I'm sure I did, because Mr. Roberts was very energetic in
12 ensuring that appropriate coverage was given. I did my share, as did
13 General Foran, as did Colonel Tymchuk [phoen], as did others. So, I'm
14 sorry, I took a long time, yes, I did talk --
15 Q. You also mentioned during your direct examination the incident
16 about the tank in front of the headquarters. Do you recall that?
17 MR. TIEGER: Sorry Your Honour, I don't have any recollection of
18 that I would like to see a reference.
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. I apologise, did you mention that during the course of your
21 testimony that there was a tank parked out in front of your --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, what the witness testified yesterday can
23 be found in the transcript, yes? So don't ask the witness what he
24 testified yesterday where we have reliable sources to establish this and
25 if you give me one or two words, then I will look it up for you so that
1 we know --
2 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour --
3 Q. Did a tank park itself in front of your gate?
4 A. Yes, it did.
5 Q. Now, was there a resolution of that difficulty or the tank being
6 parked there relatively quickly?
7 A. I believe the tank remained there for several hours. I do not
8 know the exact time at which it left because I was not at the gate when
9 it left.
10 Q. Well, Captain Hill defused that situation relatively quickly,
11 didn't he?
12 A. Captain Hill did exemplary work throughout his tour. I'm not
13 aware of the specific incident that you're refer to.
14 MR. KEHOE: Let me talk about this particular video then, if I
15 can bring this up as 1D170385.
16 Q. By the way, before we begin, that is Captain Hill, is it not?
17 A. Yes.
18 [Videotape played]
19 "... refugees. I got off the camp, I got down to the gas
20 station, and what we ran into was the start line for them to do their
21 final drive on Knin. So they said go back go, go back, I said okay.
22 They had tanks, we didn't. One of the guys want the Colonel Leslie's
23 pistol, Colonel said no. Then he wanted mine. For some reason, they
24 want the Brownings. So he said well I will send my tanks to take them
25 from the camp. So we laughed. So as I went back, he brought the APCs
1 back and he had taken a T-54 and put it right in the gate with the
2 barrel, like, right over the gate. And I came back and I said what are
3 you doing? And he said I'm taking all your pistols. So we started
4 killing ourselves laughing. I said, no, no you can't take the pistols,
5 and I said, please move your tank. So they moved their tank and put it
6 in the hold down, and after that he didn't ask for any more pistols."
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. General I notice you laughing, is that pretty much how that issue
9 was resolved?
10 A. I wasn't actually aware of them -- that was the -- I wasn't aware
11 that that issue of the pistols at the gate had come up. But as far as I
12 know, I think that is how it was resolved.
13 MR. KEHOE: We will move this video in evidence and move on.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D127 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D127 is admitted into evidence.
19 Mr. Kehoe, it was on page 1971 line 19.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. KEHOE: I wasn't entirely off the mark I thought it was in
22 there when I read it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. KEHOE:
25 Q. General, you were in the compound on the 6th and were you not
2 A. I was.
3 Q. And on the 6th, did you continue to inform Zagreb and -- did you
4 continue to inform Zagreb about what had happened or what you believe had
5 happened in Knin on the 4th and the 5th?
6 A. I'm sure we did I have no recollection of any specifics on the
7 6th my main focus was on trying to help the team bring a degree of
8 coherence and stability to the displaced persons we had inside our
9 compound. So I myself was not -- was not intimately involved in what was
10 being head to UNCRO headquarters.
11 Q. Did you continue to talk to the media on the 6th?
12 A. Yes, we all did.
13 Q. Did you -- in your conversation with the media tell them that you
14 believed that there were 3.000 shells had landed and that you believed --
15 as a result of the shelling, likewise that there were 300 houses damaged
16 and that there were 300 to 500 deaths. Did you tell them that?
17 A. Sir, I cannot recall the specifics of what I may have mentioned
18 on the 6th of August.
19 Q. You knew, sir, that the information that you were providing to
20 media sources whatever it was going to be published to the international
21 community, don't you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in fact, sir, were you aware, based on the information coming
24 out of Sector South, that high-level meetings within the UN were taking
25 place concerning that information?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you learn that at any point, sir?
3 A. Not that I can recall.
4 Q. Well, let me see if I do something to refresh your recollection,
5 and that would be if we turn to D62.
6 Now, D62 is a reference to a meeting that took place in Geneva
7 and the summary notes that Spanish foreign minister Solana EU foreign
8 affairs commission van den Broek, Carl Bildt and I met with Croatian
9 foreign minister Granic for two hours on Sunday morning in Geneva to
10 discuss the situations in Croatian and Bosnia.
11 If we can go up a little bit there, Mr. Monkhouse. I'm sorry.
12 Yes, foreign minister Solana's rebuke:
13 "Foreign minister Solana crisply reiterated the EU position
14 deprecating Croatian's military actions even as it was engaged in talks,
15 condemning the shelling of civilian areas in Knin expressed concern over
16 the humanitarian situation, protested about the treatment of UN troops
17 and handed over a formal protest from Denmark about the treatment of its
19 If we can scroll up just a bit: "On humanitarian and UN related
20 issues. Granic was pressed to explain the shelling of civilian areas in
21 Knin and was told in no uncertain terms that that involved war crimes a
22 matter falling within the province of the international tribunal in The
24 Now, General, did you ever learn about these particular talks
25 when you got back up to Zagreb into UNCRO headquarters?
1 A. Sir, I -- not these particular talks, no.
2 Q. You do know there were issues diplomatically as a result of the
3 information that was being provided to the international community from
4 Sector South. Isn't that a fact?
5 A. Sir, the way I interpret the document you presented to me.
6 Diplomatic and international issues were as a result of Croatian
7 hostilities in the Krajina.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I ask you a question. Is there any
9 dispute as far as the Prosecution is concerned that reporting from this
10 witness and -- as a Chief of Staff up in the hierarchy that the
11 information would find its way into political meetings at a higher level;
12 that's the first question. And the second question, is it in dispute
13 that one could expect that if you give an interview to the international
14 press that the information you reveal during such an interview would
15 normally be published.
16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, so far as I understand both questions
17 answer is there isn't any dispute.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, not any dispute.
19 Then Mr. Kehoe if there are any specific matters to be addressed
20 then of course we would like to hear.
21 Would there have been, Mr. Tieger, any problem in tendering this
22 document we have now in front of us? It is it in evidence already.
23 MR. KEHOE: It is it in evidence already, Judge.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so therefore the information is available to
25 the Chamber.
1 Mr. Kehoe, we have spent quite a lot of time on -- on matters
2 where I'm sometimes asking myself whether the questions are superfluous
3 or whether these are facts, notorious facts. The questions whether in
4 those circumstances you give an interview whether that would be published
5 I still am in doubt whether it is superfluous or a notorious fact. If
6 you disagree with that, at a later moment if it doesn't take too much
7 court time you can make further submission on that.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, as I continue through I think that there
10 is some building here that I have to ask the Court to bear with it. I
11 understand Your Honours' concern but I think I will be getting through
12 there relatively quickly now.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see how quickly it goes.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. KEHOE: Well --
16 Q. Turning our attention to the 7th you noted for us that you left
17 on the 7th. And you noted for us that you testified that a
18 Marine Lukovic drove you. Is that right?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Who else was with you?
21 A. I don't recall anybody else being with us. There may well have
22 been, but I don't recall.
23 Q. You were in the same car with Marine Lukovic?
24 A. I was.
25 Q. And you drove this ten-hour drive back to Zagreb?
1 A. No. I think what happened was -- I beg your pardon, we changed
2 to a different vehicle. The good marine captain and I knew each other
3 and we had -- we had chats as we went to what was formally the zone of
4 separation and from there a UN vehicle took me to Zagreb.
5 Q. Are you aware that a Corporal Hatch and a Master Sergeant Parmley
6 [phoen] stated that they drove you to -- Corporal Hatch said that he and
7 Parmley drove you to Zagreb?
8 A. It wouldn't surprise me, Master Bombadier Parmley was my driver,
9 and he followed in the vehicle behind, but I don't believe he or Hatch
10 were in the vehicle with the good marine captain and I.
11 Q. And this was all the way -- and did Lukovic go with you all the
12 way to Zagreb?
13 A. No, he did not.
14 Q. Where did he go to?
15 A. He went to the zone of separation which was essentially the road
16 down towards Split. And as soon as we got to the other side out of what
17 was now -- well, formally the Croatian side of the zone of separation he
18 went on his way, and Master Bombadier Parmley and the good sergeant took
19 me to Zagreb.
20 Q. Now, General, you know that UN representatives and Mr. Akashi and
21 others came to Knin on the 7th?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. And you likewise know, or do you know, that a Mr. Flynn testified
24 here several days ago, on the 11th of April, on page 1302, when asked
25 about the damage in Knin on line 6 was asked:
1 "When you arrived in Knin on the 7th is it fair to say you were
2 surprised by the lack of damage to the town? Answer: I was surprised
3 that there was less damage than I expected, yes. There certainly was
4 damage but it did not seem to be extensive."
5 Now, when you got to Zagreb, you -- is it true that you began to
6 receive information from members of the international community that when
7 they reviewed the damage in Knin it was not as extensive and as bad as
8 had been reported by UN personnel before that date?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I was not following the transcript at a
10 certain moment where I see an urgent request from the court reporter to
11 kindly slow down.
12 MR. KEHOE: I have attempted to and I get a message from time to
13 time from my colleagues to do so, and I apologise to the booths and to
14 the Chamber and to you, General, if I speak a little bit too quickly. I
15 will do my best to --
16 JUDGE ORIE: And the transcriber crying out for help.
17 MR. KEHOE: I shouldn't forget the transcriber.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. So you were getting information that the reports where the damage
21 was not as extensive as UN personnel had reported?
22 A. Some of the reports, yes.
23 Q. And that likewise was being published in the media, wasn't it?
24 A. I think so. I can see no reason why it wouldn't be. I can't
25 recall myself any specifics.
1 Q. Do you recall various media sources saying in terms that, that
2 the damage in Knin was nowhere near as bad as had been reported by the UN
3 prior to the 7th of August?
4 A. I am aware that when President Tudjman visited Knin, I believe,
5 on the 7th, or the 6th, he had a media entourage with him who based on
6 what they could see were transmitting a variety of messages, but as of
7 sort of the afternoon of the 7th, I was en route and I was out of the
8 information loop until probably the 9th or 10th.
9 So does that answer your question?
10 Q. Well, sir, I mean, when you got to Zagreb, you were getting these
11 reports both from members of the UN that were in Knin as well as media
12 reports that the damage in Knin was not as extensive was as reported by
13 UN Sector South headquarters when they were reporting on the 4th and the
14 5th. Isn't that right?
15 A. There were certainly some reports that were circulating that had
16 different levels of damage ascribed to them. I don't remember any
17 specific details.
18 Q. Well, let me turn our attention to D66.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, when we are waiting to get this on the
20 screen, it is not perfectly clear to me at this moment, is there an issue
21 about whether these media reports existed? It appears to me a matter
22 which is relatively simple to establish, and if there are -- I take it
23 that they are copied or is the issue is whether this witness is aware of
24 the media reports. If that is the issue, then why not just put to him as
25 a fact which he can agree, I take it with Mr. Tieger, that they did
1 exist. If that would be effective.
2 MR. TIEGER: No I agree Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then just -- I apologise.
4 MR. TIEGER: I'm actually interested in the particular reports.
5 I didn't want to jump up too often or guide any answers in any way by any
6 objection, but I'd like to know if the media reports referred to or UN
7 reports referred to what damage they reported whether it was a
8 discrepancies between reports, discrepancies between expectations built
9 on other things. I think it is helpful to see them.
10 MR. KEHOE: May I respond to that, Judge.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
12 MR. KEHOE: There are I think six, maybe eight various media
13 articles which are published and cited in our pre-trial brief. And
14 certainly we --
15 JUDGE ORIE: They're not in evidence at this point.
16 MR. KEHOE: No they're not. But, Your Honour, I was asking my
17 question is was he aware that that was happening and that is the
18 significant point. I mean it is one thing to publish them but I was
19 asking the General if he was aware of them.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let move on.
21 MR. KEHOE:
22 Q. Now let us turn our attention to the document that's on the
23 screen and that is D66, if we can move down to downtown Knin. This is a
24 cable from the United States government dated 14 August 1995. And it
25 notes in the first sentence:
1 "Although Knin was reportedly heavily shelled in the early hours
2 of the hostilities few downtown buildings and residential areas showed
3 signs of shell damage."
4 Now, General, in that synopsis of that sentence is that basically
5 the information you were getting back from not only representative coming
6 from the United States but from other UN representatives concerning the
7 level of damage in Knin when they had a chance to go through it?
8 A. Sir, there were conflicting opinions and description on the level
9 of damage in Knin. Some of those that you have alluded to or that have
10 you identified describe the damage as very moderate and others less so.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Please make pauses. Thank you.
12 MR. KEHOE: Once again, I apologise.
13 Q. Now, General, you began working in UNCRO headquarters in Zagreb
14 on the 8th, didn't you?
15 A. I actually thought it was the 9th. But -- okay.
16 Q. Well, let just clear this up, sir, and it will be 65 ter 2749.
17 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I'm not moving that other exhibit into
18 evidence because it is in evidence already.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then it helps those who will read there transcript
20 at a later date if you are referring to the D or P number, which gives
21 a --
22 MR. KEHOE: D66 number that I just talked about on the screen,
23 the US cable. It's in evidence.
24 The item I have on the screen.
25 Q. Now, General, this is dated 8 August 1995 at 1300 hours. Is that
2 A. Yes, sir, I stand corrected. My apologies.
3 Q. And, General, I know it is difficult time-wise I'm just trying to
4 clarify some times.
5 And on this particular cable you were the drafter and the
6 releaser, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, if we move down to the last paragraph here, you note, sir,
9 that on line 3: "It is very important to sector headquarters gather
10 immediate data and documentation of the time, place, nature of the
11 alleged violation and who other -- who other witnesses were and, if
12 possible, the units and personnel committing the violation?"
13 Now, this, General, is a reference to what happened in Knin on
14 the 4th and the 5th, isn't it?
15 A. No. Well, in part it was also a reference to what happened in
16 all the sectors that UNCRO headquarters was responsible for not only
17 Sector South.
18 Q. Now, did you have a specific order to send this -- this document
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And who gave that you order?
22 A. General Rodin [phoen], Al Rodin.
23 Q. And did he give that to you orally or in writing?
24 A. I cannot recall.
25 MR. KEHOE: Sorry, General, I didn't mean to cut you off.
1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. As a Chief of Staff, the only freedoms
2 I enjoy are the those which are signed by my commander, and in this case
3 General Al Rodin was my new commander.
4 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time I will offer this document
5 into evidence.
6 MR. TIEGER: No objection.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D128, Your Honours.
9 A. Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D128 is admitted in into evidence.
11 Mr. Kehoe, it is approximately time for a break, but I would
12 first like to advise Madam Usher to escort Mr. Leslie out of the
14 We will have a break for approximately 25 minutes, Mr. Leslie.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, how much time you think you would still
18 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I will probably take the balance of the
19 day. I do understand and I don't want to speak for my colleagues, but I
20 did discuss certainly with Mr. Kay and I don't believe at this point he
21 intends on conducting any cross-examination.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay.
23 MR. KAY: That's right, Your Honour, nothing arises.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Markac Defence. Mr. Kuzmanovic.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, we do not plan on any cross at this
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then let see whether we can finish today with the
3 cross-examination. We will then, I don't know, Mr. Tieger, whether you
4 have at this moment already any intention to re-examine the witness.
5 MR. TIEGER: I do, Your Honour, not I -- hopefully not at great
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore there is a fair chance that we
8 might not finish the witness today.
9 MR. KEHOE: I don't think I will finish today on cross.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well I can tell you, Mr. Kehoe, that there is
11 some disagreement among the members of this Chamber. The disagreement is
12 about whether you could have achieved what you do in cross-examination in
13 60 or in 50 per cent of the time you are actually using. So, you see,
14 the Chamber is not fully in agreement. Could you please try to do it as
15 efficiently as possible and as quickly as possible.
16 We will have a break until five minutes past 6.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.
20 MR. KEHOE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. We're moving off the
21 document that is on the screen, which I believe was received as ... that
22 has been received in evidence, the 8th of August, memo.
23 Q. And I think you testified, General, that you wrote your memo P84
24 on the 12th of August, the memo that we talked about during the
25 Prosecutor's case?
1 A. Yes, sir. That was my original suspected war crimes allegation
2 given to the G2 of UNCRO. Is that the one.
3 Q. That's the one?
4 A. Got it.
5 Q. Now, sir, that several days later, you were -- were you aware
6 that the UNMO teams in Zagreb were tasked to do an assessment of the
7 damage caused by Operation Storm in Knin?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And let me bring up on the screen, P64. And just going through
10 the first two paragraphs, paragraph 1 and paragraph 2. Notes UN team
11 Pogonje [phoen] has made a provisional assessment of the damages caused
12 by HV OPs 0406 August 95 in the town of Knin. The report is based on a
13 run of 70 percent of Knin town and gives only a brief overview of the
15 In general, shelling was concentrated against military
16 objectives. The damages caused by shelling to civilian establishments is
17 concentrated to the close vicinity of military objectives only few three
18 to five impacts is observed in other urban areas.
19 General, did you receive this in Zagreb while you were the Chief
20 of Staff?
21 A. I'm sure I did. This report was -- caused quite a bit of
23 Q. Now, this is called a provisional assessment but you were aware
24 that a final assessment was provided to headquarters in Zagreb
25 approximately a week later and that the final report was consistent with
1 the provisional assessment, wasn't it?
2 A. No, sir I don't have that recollection. If could I see the
3 report you are referring, to I would be very grateful.
4 Q. Frankly, I mean, nobody seems to be able to find that, General.
5 I will tell you that. Neither the Office of the Prosecutor or anyone of
6 the UN. But have you -- I can just tell you that, I don't know there is
7 any source of dispute about --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, nobody seems to be able to find that is a
9 comment on the testimony of the witness, isn't it?
10 MR. KEHOE: Not on this witness, Judge. What I'm saying is that
11 I think there is an agreement that no one can locate that final
12 assessment that Mr. Hernes [phoen] says was filed. I don't think that
13 there is any disagreement between the Defence and the Prosecution on that
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a the bit confused by the question and answer as
16 reflected in the transcript.
17 Let me re-read it and see where the answer actually starts.
18 MR. KEHOE: Frankly, Judge, I was trying not to mislead the
19 general with regard to --
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. But on the transcript I cannot see where
21 the questions stops and where the answer starts.
22 The witness says when asked whether the later report was
23 consistent with the provisional assessment and then witness says that I
24 don't seem to have that recollection that appears, seams to be the
25 beginning of the answer, which does not appear on the transcript and then
1 it says if -- could I see the report you are referring to, I would be
2 very grateful.
3 And then you say: I mean nobody seems to be able to -- or to
4 find that. Yes. The word to find has two different meanings.
5 MR. KEHOE: Locate.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And now it is clear to me where I misunderstood the
7 word to find.
8 MR. KEHOE: Locate, yeah.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Because whether it was consistent or not and if you
10 say no one is able to find that that is to have any doubt as to the
11 consistency that's what confused me but it is perfectly clear now you
12 meant the word find in a literally way.
13 I'm sorry for the time it takes me to understand the matter.
14 Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Just to clarify the issue a bit further. It is
16 correct that -- well, the suggestion that there is an consensus that no
17 one has been able to find the report suggests a consensus that such a
18 report existed and that is of course a subject of controversy.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I was just mistaken by a finding, relating that to
20 the consistency or the inconsistency and that was just misunderstood.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. General, did you know Colonel Hernes, who was the senior military
24 observer in Sector South?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And have you been advised that Colonel Hernes has told the Office
2 of the Prosecutor that the final assessment was consistent with the
3 findings of the provisional assessment?
4 A. No, I was not aware.
5 Q. You did in fact, I think you said during the course of questions
6 a few minutes ago, did in fact receive the information that was in the
7 provisional assessment while you were in Zagreb. Is that correct?
8 A. I -- I can't recall receiving this specific report but the
9 contents and the contention that the shelling in Knin was as described in
10 this report in grosso modo terms, yes, I received that as -- or more
11 importantly so did my commander.
12 Q. Now, General did your commander or did you do any other
13 assessment, a UN assessment after you received that report?
14 A. Sir, I just want to remind you at this time I was Chief of Staff
15 UNCRO working for General Al Rodin. UNCRO, to my knowledge, did not
16 conduct any further assessments.
17 Q. I think you mentioned earlier, and this was at page 79, line 25,
18 you said, "As a Chief of Staff the only freedoms that I enjoy are those
19 granted to me by my commander." Is that accurate?
20 A. That is -- yes, that is accurate. For almost all professional
21 militaries that is an accurate assessment.
22 Q. General, you, in -- after you received this provisional
23 assessment, called down to officers that worked for you in Sector South,
24 specifically Lieutenant-Colonel Tymchuk and Captain Berakov [phoen] and
25 asked them to do him a favour and go out and look for evidence of
1 indiscriminate shelling, didn't you?
2 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. The general content is okay but
3 I think this embraces an assertion that he received a provisional
4 assessment. I believe the witness said he didn't actually receive the
5 provisional assessment.
6 MR. KEHOE: I'll re-ask the question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 MR. KEHOE:
9 Q. You, General, noted for us that you understood that information
10 had come back from Knin, from the UNMOs, that the -- there was no
11 indiscriminate shelling in Knin. Was that basically information you got?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And after you received that information, you called down to
14 Lieutenant-Colonel Tymchuk and Captain Berakov and asked them to go out
15 and provide proof that the HV and HVO had committed war crimes by
16 indiscriminately shelling the city. Didn't you?
17 A. I do not recall those exact words. May I --
18 Q. Sure I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
19 A. I don't mean to cut off your -- okay should I continue?
20 Q. Absolutely.
21 A. After this issue of the low end assessment was received, or the
22 information in it was promulgated via the UNMO headquarters in Zagreb for
23 whom United Nations Military Observers actually worked because they
24 weren't under General Al Rodin's command nor were they under General
25 Foran's command. Discussions ensued between General Rodin, General
1 Janvier, who was the commander UNPF. I was not present at these
2 meetings. And on return General Rodin asked me to ask Sector South to
3 either corroborate or amplify the information that was out there on the
4 UNMO chain of command as a result of this activity.
5 I don't recall the exact words that you ascribed to me as being
6 those that I used.
7 Q. Before we get to that General, and I don't have the exact words
8 here, and I can get them, but didn't you just say that UNCRO earlier --
9 didn't you just say that UNCRO did not do any further assessments?
10 A. Sir --
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
12 A. Yes. Once again, and I apologise if I have been unclear, UNCRO
13 was very small staff co-located with UNPF in Zagreb. We did not have any
14 instruments with which to conduct any assessments. So in this case,
15 Sector South personnel, Sector South was asked to do an assessment.
16 Q. Well, Sector South, sir, was part of UNCRO weren't they?
17 A. Absolutely. And I was speaking of a Chief of Staff wherein my
18 remit is for UNCRO headquarters. So if I misled you I do apologise.
19 Q. Well, let me put an item on the screen, 1D17-0211. And this I
20 will tell you is an excerpt of the chronicle by Captain Berakov. We can
21 blow up the bottom portion of that. 3 --
22 "31 August 1995. Up at 0630 hours. I attended morning prayers
23 and went to Primostin. Colonel Leslie, now UNCRO COS, Chief of Staff,
24 called Lieutenant-Colonel Tymchuk and asked him if I would be willing to
25 do him a favour even though it was illegal, no photo-taking, and possibly
1 dangerous. I didn't even have to think about it. I immediately said
3 "I was required to go into Knin and attempt to travel on every
4 street possible. The purpose of the mission was to be able to find proof
5 that HV, HVO had committed war crimes by indiscriminately shelling the
6 city. MB, Master Bombadier, Parmley and I, found the evidence Colonel
7 Leslie was looking for big time, more tomorrow."
8 Did you do that General?
9 A. I can recall discussing with Colonel Tymchuk that Sector South do
10 a damage assessment. Colonel Tymchuk was actually my opposite number, or
11 the one I was most used to dealing with, in Sector South headquarters, as
12 a senior operations officer. I do not know why the good captain would
13 imply that this was illegal because no photos could be taken. The
14 potential for danger was recognised. I do not recognise the exact words
15 as described by the good captain.
16 Q. General, did you write an order or did you write a cable to
17 anyone in Sector South telling them to conduct such an investigation?
18 A. I believe I did, yes.
19 Q. And -- you did?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you have any idea where that is, sir?
22 A. No, I'm sorry, I don't know. I don't know. But it was certainly
23 something that sounds as if I would have done. But ...
24 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we'll offer this exhibit
25 into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could the Chamber learn what it is, who the person
2 is who drafted, even if there are no objections for --
3 MR. KEHOE: His name is captain Phillip Berakov. And Phillip
4 Berakov was a captain in Sector South headquarters. He is a Canadian --
5 he was a Canadian captain, since retired, and he was located in the
6 Sector South headquarters, and I'm not certain when in the spring of 1995
7 but certainly I would say April to the fall of 1995.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, you confirm this? I mean of
9 course we'd like to know what the origin of this document is. At the
10 same time, of course, I'm asking Mr. Kehoe to give us that information,
11 if that is undisputed we'll just accept it.
12 MR. TIEGER: Yes, that is correct, Your Honour. Under normal
13 circumstances we would be introducing or seeking to review the document
14 for a more fulsome submission, but this will in any event be part of
15 Captain Berakov's 92 ter and the Prosecution will be submitting the
16 entirety of the document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So that's good for to us know so that we have the
18 full information about what the status this text is.
19 Then, there are no objections? Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D129, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D129 is admitted into evidence.
24 Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.
25 MR. KEHOE: I would like to put on the ELMO, 1D170068. And the
1 bottom paragraph there.
2 Q. General, this is the citation that is on the web site for the
3 governor general for Canada concerning your meritory service medal. And
4 in the second sentence of this it says:
5 "During intense artillery fire Lieutenant-Colonel Leslie
6 organised and participated in several missions to rescue approximately 40
7 United Nations employees trapped in their residences and bring them to
8 the United Nations camp, using armoured personnel carriers."
9 General, you had told us during the course of your testimony
10 yesterday that you were on one convoy with the Jordanians, where nothing
11 of significance happened.
12 A. Yes, sir. And I would also add that in that one very short
13 convoy my main role was that of guide. If there is any credit of
14 rescuing those three civilians, it belongs to the Jordanian crew
16 Q. General, this particular citation -- and by the way while you
17 were in that convoy, you said you didn't see anything?
18 A. Nothing of significance, no.
19 Q. So where were the several missions that you participated in to
20 rescue approximately 40 United Nations employees?
21 A. Sir -- I'll just wait.
22 The citations for meritorious service, as mentioned, are just
23 that. It's service which is of a meritorious nature and not specifically
24 for bravery or courage. The citation is for my duties as Chief of Staff.
25 I assume it was written by General Foran but I do not know.
1 As mentioned when I was talking about the Sergeant Marcotte
2 issue, his meritory service medal decoration was for a specific activity.
3 Most of the reference in that which I actually wrote was for his trip to
4 the hospital. The first time I became aware of this citation, and I was
5 unaware that it was being prepared, was when it was at government house.
6 The conclusion of this, I spoke to the vice chief of Defence staff and
7 said, "I think you got to wrong. I think you're talking about 30 to 40
8 civilians from the hospital being moved to the UN compound." And after a
9 bit of discussion he told me, "That's good enough. It's going to stay
10 because you're going it for that, you're getting it for being the Chief
11 of Staff duties."
12 If you note, sir, I have never made any reference to any claim
13 that I rescued Untied Nations civilian personnel. I take no credit or
14 responsibility for those three folk. By the way, all credit goes to the
15 Jordanian sergeants, the Sector South security officer, and Marine Dawes.
16 Q. So, General, the government of Canada got the citation wrong in
17 the Marcotte citation, and they got the citation wrong in your citation;
18 is that right?
19 A. There were more citations from that same batch, which have
20 anomalies I'm not an expert on it because I don't know how they were
21 actually written prior to being announced or awarded. I with speak with
22 confidence on the Marcotte citation because I'm the one who wrote that.
23 It had nothing to do with the Kenyans at least when I wrote it and
24 nothing to do with rescuing personnel who were being bombed.
25 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time I will offer this document
1 into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D130 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Exhibit D130 is admitted
7 into evidence.
8 May I seek one clarification, Mr. Leslie, you said that you first
9 saw it, I think you were talking about -- you said you assumed at that it
10 was written by General Foran, and then you said something about you first
11 knew about it at the government house.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I can't find it immediately. What does that mean
14 that it is printed and signed already what was the reference to that
15 specific location? I take it, it is part of administrative procedure
16 which I'm not a -- familiar with.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
18 As is common practice, personnel do not write citation
19 recommendations on themselves. That's written by their superiors and
20 supervisors I became aware of this citation when it was actually being
21 read aloud in a fairly large community with Sergeant Marcotte as well and
22 immediately afterwards, as I mentioned, I spoke to the vice chief of the
23 Defence staff of the day.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You mean it was at the location where you were
25 formally given this.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.
5 Let's see, Mr. Kay, are matters as they were before.
6 MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, no questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, any need to re-examine the witness.
10 MR. TIEGER: A few questions, Your Honour, if I may.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Tieger:
13 Q. Very quickly, General Leslie, a couple of question about two
14 documents that were presented to you by the Defence.
15 The first was the statement by Carl Bildt which referred to the
16 and which was read to you that portion which was read to you referred to
17 the shelling of the civilian population now being reported.
18 First of all, based on what you observed on the 4th -- this is a
19 document dated the 4th. Based on what you observed on the 4th of
20 August in 1995 in Knin and the reports you have received concerning
21 activity in other parts of the sector, was that information accurate?
22 A. Yes, sir, it was.
23 Q. Secondly, the August 7th report from Mr. Stoltenberg to the
24 Secretary-General that was referred to a few moments ago, in particular
25 the portion on page 2, involving a discussion with Mr. Granic, in that
1 report as pointed out to you by the Defence, Mr. Granic was pressed to
2 explain the shelling of civilian areas in Knin.
3 He said that most of the civilians had already fled the city
4 before it was shelled.
5 Based on your observations of the attack on Knin on the 4th of
6 August, was that accurate or inaccurate?
7 A. Sir, based on my observations of the region of Knin, the city of
8 Knin, his observation is inaccurate.
9 Q. Mr. Granic also said there had been three military barracks in
10 Knin. Did you observe that the shelling of Knin was directed at only the
11 three military barracks in Knin?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Yesterday you were asked some questions about the concept of
14 centre of gravity, and today as well, and also about air/land battle and
15 you clarified that it was air/land battle 2000 and 2004.
16 First of all, can you tell us and tell the Court, please, if
17 there's anything about the concept of the centre of gravity that permits
18 the shelling that you observed in Knin on August 4th.
19 If that's not a clear question, let me ask it in a slightly
20 different way?
21 A. Yes, please, my apologies. I -- sorry.
22 Q. If -- I mean, that question was directed to your attention in
23 connection with Knin. If Knin was a "centre of gravity," would that have
24 permitted the shelling that you observed of Knin on August 4th and August
1 A. No.
2 Q. Does the concept of air/land battle that was brought to your
3 attention permit the shelling that you observed of Knin on August 4th and
4 August 5th?
5 A. In its totality, no.
6 Q. What does that doctrine of air/land battle, what kind of shelling
7 does it permit and how is that kind of shelling different from what you
8 observed on August 4th and August 5th?
9 A. The concept of the battle space in air/land battle is one which
10 is worthy of some discussion refinement if you wanted to apply that
11 doctrine to the events that took place on the 4th and 5th of August I'm
12 not aware of any battle space definition which includes civilian
13 residences or infrastructure which are not being used for military
15 Q. Now, you have told the Court that the shelling that you observed
16 reflected either a deliberate attempt to shell civilian structures and
17 areas, or the indiscriminate shelling of such structures and areas?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now the Defence has asserted to previous witnesses that the
20 shelling of Knin, and particularly -- or at least in part, if not
21 particularly the shelling that took place in the centre part of Knin was
22 not an indiscriminate attack but was directed at a certain number of
23 particular military targets?
24 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Judge, with all do respect I did not go
25 through this on my direct examination. I mean -- if I understand the
1 exploration of counsel I did not go through with this particular witness.
2 So that was not part of my cross-examination.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: I say two things about that, maybe more. Number
5 one, there is it an obligation in this institution of course to put the
6 case to the witness. The Defence's case is being put to every other
7 witness but not being put to this witness, who, indeed, seems to have a
8 grater background and experience in just that area.
9 Furthermore, this witness should have an opportunity, it seems to
10 me, and this court should have the opportunity, to hear from this witness
11 whether the alleged presence of military targets or certain military
12 targets within or in the close vicinity of the residential areas he saw
13 shelled is in any way in conflict with his assertion that the shelling
14 was indiscriminate, and if not, why not.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
16 MR. KEHOE: With all due respect, that should have been brought
17 up on direct -- excuse me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Kehoe, calm down.
19 MR. KEHOE: This line of inquiry was not brought up on direct.
20 There had to be a specific calculated decision by the Office of the
21 Prosecutor not to do this. Now they want to go back into this on
22 redirect examination? Well then just re-open re-cross on all of this.
23 It's -- excuse me. It clearly was not a part of the direct
24 examination and going into this on redirect is improper.
25 MR. TIEGER: May I respond, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
2 MR. TIEGER: I think the Court should be aware and the record
3 will reflect that I attempted to do so on a couple of occasions. I
4 thought then and think now the witness should be permitted to explain
5 the -- what it is about the nature of the shelling that was, in his view,
6 indiscriminate. I tried to do so. There were multiple objections to
7 that and thereafter, in cross-examination, the area was skirted around,
8 the suggestion was that somehow air/land battle made that appropriate and
9 was in conflict with the witness's assertion that the shelling was
10 indiscriminate. Same thing with the introduction of the provisional
11 assessment. I mean, of course I'm in the Court's hands, but I would
12 think that the Court would want to know this information.
13 MR. KEHOE: And Your Honour, there was an opportunity for the
14 Prosecution to use General Leslie as an expert and file an expert report.
15 That would have been proper.
16 Now, General Leslie has a vast experience in artillery and as the
17 Prosecutor well knew had the opportunity to do that, chose not to do it,
18 chose not to introduce his five statements into evidence. They made a
19 calculated decision about this. Then they came in on direct examination
20 and tried to elevate him to some point as an expert without providing the
21 expert testimony.
22 Now what they can do, Your Honour, is they can take General
23 Leslie off the stand and go back and get an expert report of some
24 fashion. Which -- but that would mean we have other issues there because
25 we're already this late into the case. But that was not -- this is was
1 13 years that this -- that General Leslie has been talking about this,
2 five statements to the Prosecutor. And here we are, talking about
3 targets after a specific decision by the Prosecution not to do it and not
4 to qualify him as an expert.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, one question to start with. Isn't it
6 true that the issue of potential military targets was introduced by the
7 Defence as a couple of occasions to witnesses not being expert witnesses?
8 MR. KEHOE: When -- when a particular witness was talking about a
9 particular area, and if you recall, Judge, and then with regard to
10 Mr. Dreyer, if you recall the caveat. The caveat was if Mr. Dreyer,
11 these were military targets. And Your Honour stopped me and said,
12 "Mr. Kehoe that's not established." I said, "I understand, Your Honour."
13 If these are military targets, Mr. Dreyer, you were driving
14 through them. Now, I understand the obligation at some point to do that,
15 but that evidence was received with that caveat.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber is not bound by any domestic rules of
19 procedure and evidence. This Chamber also has the power to call upon the
20 parties to present certain evidence. The matter is of a nature which the
21 Chamber would like to receive information about, also from this witness.
22 At the same time, one can wonder which party should then provide
23 that information to this Chamber. The Chamber invites Mr. Tieger and
24 Mr. Kehoe to see whether they come to agreement as who will elicit this
25 evidence, if the witness has any knowledge about the matter, from this
1 witness. If you do not agree on who will do it, and of course, if the
2 one party puts questions in relation to the matter to the witness, the
3 other party will have an opportunity to cross-examine, or at least to put
4 questions to the witness as well. If you don't decide on who will do it
5 the Chamber will do it.
6 So you are invited to seek who will elicit this evidence from
7 this witness, if he can give any evidence about it. The Chamber is not
8 in this way applying Rule 90 (H). We are not in that area. The Chamber,
9 on the basis of the arguments we just heard and on the basis of the
10 evidence the Chamber received in relation to other witnesses is just
11 interested to see whether this witness can tell us anything about it.
12 Yes. Therefore, Mr. Tieger, at this moment, until you have had a
13 conversation with Mr. Kehoe, please move to your next subject.
14 MR. KEHOE: I would say on this score, it was not part of the
15 direct examination. So, clearly, there has not been a proofing statement
16 provided to the conference on that score. And if in fact this is going
17 to be elicited by the Prosecution, we would certainly ask for the
18 proofing statement because I'm sure that he has discussed this with
19 General Leslie prior to yesterday or certainly prior to today.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We -- I take it that, Mr. Tieger, if during
21 proofing, anything has arisen in your conversations or conversations of
22 the OTP with Mr. Leslie, which would not be favourable to your case but
23 perhaps favourable to the other case, then I take it that you would have
24 immediately disclosed such information to the Defence under Rule 68.
25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, if in the proofing anything
2 would have arisen at any moment which you should have been aware about,
3 Mr. Tieger was under a obligation disclose that to you.
4 So, therefore, I take it that this could have been the first part
5 of your conversation with Mr. Tieger but since you addressed the Chamber,
6 I briefly addressed the matter as well.
7 Mr. Tieger, you can continue at this moment but not on this
8 subject until you have had a conversation with Mr. Kehoe and the Chamber
9 will hear whether you agree on who is going to elicit this evidence. And
10 again, I emphasise this is not examination/cross-examination. This is
11 evidence the Chamber asks the party to present, and which party is, first
12 of all, for you to agree upon; if not, the Chamber will decide.
13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. In that case, I think I'm
14 ready to have that conversation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Mr. Leslie, we are ten minutes before we usually adjourn for the
17 day. You may have understood from the conversation that there might be a
18 certain chapter to be dealt with by either Prosecution or Defence, not
19 necessarily even you, Mr. Kehoe, I don't know whether any other
20 candidates, I take it that you're the one who is most interested.
21 MR. KEHOE: I think I'm elected, Judge.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 That means that we would like to continue tomorrow. I see no
24 reasonable risk, no risk, that we would not finish by tomorrow, although
25 it may take, I would suggest that it would take not more than half a
1 session to elicit the evidence and then certainly not more than half a
2 session to put questions to the witness.
3 Yes Mr. Kehoe.
4 MR. KEHOE: That's, I think, a bit optimistic, Judge.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Think about the 50 and the 60 per cent and see
6 what you can do.
7 MR. KEHOE: I am thinking, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'd like to instruct you again that you
9 should not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether already given
10 or still to be given, and we'd liked to you back tomorrow at 9.00 in the
11 morning in this same courtroom.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you ask you to escort the witness
14 out of the courtroom first.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 The Chamber understands there was some uncertainty about what
17 would happen on Friday. Mr. Leslie, his testimony will be concluded
18 somewhere tomorrow morning. It entirely depends on the parties what will
19 happen on Friday because if the next witness can be examined and
20 cross-examined tomorrow, then I do understand that there is no other
21 witness available for this week, Mr. Tieger, is that correct? That would
22 also mean that we would not sit on Friday. If, however, we cannot
23 conclude the testimony of the witness to be called tomorrow, I couldn't
24 say the Chamber will continue on Friday. I'm not available this Friday,
25 and the other Judges have informed me that they -- where they earlier
1 considered to sit under Rule 15 bis, that they have decided to continue
2 the examination hearing the evidence the next witness to be called on
3 Friday so as to enable that witness to return home before the weekend.
4 That's as far as Friday is concerned. Are there any other
5 matters to be raised at this moment.
6 MR. TIEGER: No Your Honour.
7 MR. KEHOE: No Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please inform Mr. Nilsson, our legal
9 officer about any agreement or about any lack of agreement on who will
10 elicit the evidence from Mr. Leslie tomorrow on the issue of, I would
11 say, objects or facilities that one could consider as qualifying as
12 legitimate targets. And of course the Chamber is, as before, mainly
13 interested to know what did he include as his personal knowledge in his
14 assessment of the situation, rather than to have a lengthy discussion on
15 what a legitimate military target is, because, as the Chamber has decided
16 before, finally it is the Chamber who will decide that, but the Chamber
17 may consider observations in this respect by knowledgeable people, even
18 if not called as experts. We earlier explained that sometimes what
19 someone can observe or can know, can hear, needs some kind of an
20 interpretation where this interpretation, the ability to interpret is not
21 the same for every witness.
22 We stand adjourned until the 24th of April, 9.00, this same
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of
1 April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.