1 Thursday, 22 May 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Ms. Frolich, are you ready to continue the examination-in-chief
13 of Mr. Elleby?
14 MS. FROLICH: Yes, Your Honour, I am.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Elleby, I would like to remind you that
16 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
17 beginning of your testimony.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Frolich.
19 WITNESS: JAN ELLEBY [Resumed]
20 MS. FROLICH: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Examination by Ms. Frolich: [Continued]
22 MS. FROLICH: Mr. President I was going to ask yesterday to
23 tender the diagram which has been assigned number P00283 into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And you say 283, on the basis of the list that was
25 just handed out to me. Yes, the diagram appears there under number 66 --
1 65 ter 4942.
2 MS. FROLICH: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge, and it just may be something that
5 needs to be put in accurately, I believe Mr. Elleby said during the
6 operative time-frame prior to late August of 1995, he was the deputy
7 chief and not the sector chief. I belive that's what he said, so I think
8 that this reflects a period of time from late August to, I guess, the
9 last day of September of 1995 and not during the time-frame of Operation
10 Storm. I think.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have it on the screen or perhaps we have it
12 already. Yes, there it is.
13 Yes, that's now on the record, at least also the testimony of the
14 witness is on the record, and the diagram gives no time-period so it is
15 more or less, as you say, please be careful in interpreting it. It might
16 not be valid for all the periods of time of time.
17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it is not an objection against admission.
19 MR. KEHOE: No, just on clarification.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Any further observations to be made? No. Then --
22 MS. FROLICH: If I may just --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. FROLICH: If I may just note that the title say that this is
25 a diagram of CIVPOL structure in Sector South during the tenure of Jan
1 Elleby as UN CIVPOL sector chief.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say it is a time-frame related to a
3 person. I overlooked that and then still, I think the matter raised by
4 Mr. Kehoe stands that when -- when sector chief so not in -- Mr. Kehoe,
5 careful reading now makes clear that there was no reason for correction
6 because it is limited to that period where he was sector chief.
7 Yes. Let's not spend more time on it.
8 MS. FROLICH: Maybe just one additional clarifying question to
9 the when with respect to that structure then.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If I think that is necessary then please do so.
11 MS. FROLICH:
12 Q. Mr. Elleby, what -- was the CIVPOL as shown on this diagram the
13 same during the period or different during the period that -- before you
14 became the sector chief?
15 A. It was a little different before I became the sector chief,
16 because we had operational officers, investigation officers and
17 humanitarian officers who were taking care of that item no matter where
18 it happened in the sector. We turned it around so we have the
19 coordinators who took care of all the issues in a certain area.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That being clarified, P283 is admitted into
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. FROLICH: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Elleby, in your 1995 statement which is P214, on page one you
25 mentioned that you noticed -- when you speak about shelling in Knin you
1 noticed a shell that fell 50 metres away from your apartment.
2 Can you explain what you meant by that?
3 A. Well, I couldn't be sure about the 50 metres exactly, but the
4 first shell I heard woke me up and it went down a bit far away from the
5 house. Nothing happened to the house, but I just -- it made me wake.
6 The next shell and a few seconds after fell that close so all the windows
7 in the house were blown in. But the 50 metres is -- is an estimation.
8 Q. What do you mean by the word "noticed"?
9 A. You could say heard.
10 Q. In the same statement, on the same page you also mention the
11 presence of the civilian and military population in Knin in the
12 time-period leading right up to the shelling attack. What was the
13 presence of this population right after this attack ended?
14 A. Well, my observations in Knin after the Operation Storm started
15 at the 8th of August when we were allowed to make short patrols in Knin,
16 and I noticed that the Krajinian [sic] military, the Serbian soldiers
17 were gone and there were not many civilians to see anywhere.
18 Q. In your 2008 statement, P217, in paragraph 13, you mentioned that
19 you knew the fires from the Knin town were from arson because of the
20 smoke pattern. Can you explain what you meant by that?
21 A. Yes. After -- after the shelling stopped, and the Croatian
22 military moved into Knin, it was possible from the barracks to see smoke
23 columns, starting different places in the town. And as the shelling had
24 stopped, I assume that it was houses put on fire.
25 MS. FROLICH: Can we bring up the 65 ter -- I'm sorry, P284,
1 which was 65 ter 4941.
2 Could we turn it around? Thank you. And focus.
3 Q. Mr. Elleby, do you recognise this photograph?
4 A. Yes, I do. It is a satellite photo of Knin.
5 Q. And who made the markings that are visible on this photograph?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. Can you explain what the letters which mark the highlighted areas
8 on the photograph stands for, starting with the letter A?
9 A. Yes, I can. Letter A and the circle is marking my accommodation
10 during the attack.
11 The letter B is marking the neighbour house who was hit by a
12 shell in the morning of the 4th of August.
13 The letter C is, as I recall, the location of the CIVPOL station
14 in Knin.
15 The letter D is an area of the town which has -- were some damage
16 were caused by the shelling.
17 And the area E is in the main street of Knin where there also
18 were some damages by the shelling. And in one of the early patrols, I
19 also noticed some looting going on here.
20 The letter F is an area who was hit by shelling.
21 The letter G marks some -- some houses who were burned, and this
22 is the smoke columns who were visible from the south barracks.
23 And the letter H is showing my accommodation after we were
24 allowed to move into the private accommodations again approximately two
25 to three weeks after the operation.
1 Q. Now, sir, just to be clear, areas where you note that there was
2 damage from shelling, how do you know about this damage?
3 A. The windows were -- were blown out. There were a lot of glass
4 everywhere. As some of the houses had damages in the roof-top. And
5 somewhere, most visible in the area D, there were some marks on the road
6 who looked like shelling or where the shell had hit.
7 Q. Did someone tell you about this damage or did you observe this
8 damage yourself or how -- what sort of information did you receive?
9 A. As I don't have any military education myself, of course the
10 observation were discussed with the military in the barracks, the UN
11 military and they told me this was typical damage from shelling.
12 Q. Did I observe this damage yourself, sir?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 MS. FROLICH: Could we please tender this photograph into
16 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? No objections. Then P284 is
17 admitted into evidence.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. FROLICH: If we could now have P228 on screen, please.
20 Q. Mr. Elleby, do you recognise this document?
21 A. Yes, I do. It's a document written by at that time chief
22 operation officer, Steinar Hagvag, Norwegian police officer. He was
23 later the deputy.
24 Q. Have you -- have you ever seen this document during your time in
1 A. I don't remember seeing it when I was in Knin.
2 Q. Who was the chief of Sector South at this time, which is the date
3 listed on this document, 18th of August, 1995?
4 A. I'm not sure. I don't remember the actual date when I actually
5 took over the -- the chief position. I know that Norman Boucher left
6 between this date and the 26th. He were going for some holiday. So I
7 don't remember for sure if I was chief at this day or -- or if it was
9 Q. Do you know who, if anyone, ordered this assessment to be made?
10 A. No, I don't remember that order given.
11 Q. Have you any knowledge about any source material that might have
12 been compiled or prepared in relation to this report?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. Do you have any knowledge about any maps that might have been
15 prepared in relation to this report?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you personally ever conduct any sort of detailed survey in
18 Knin concerning damage?
19 A. I don't remember that I did.
20 Q. Mr. Elleby, what sort of training did CIVPOL staff, in general,
22 A. It was various courses in the countries. I think there were
23 about 25 or 30 countries present in Croatia at that moment, and there was
24 a very short briefing when we arrived in Zagreb at the mission.
25 Q. What was the educational background ever CIVPOL monitors and
1 CIVPOL staff?
2 A. All CIVPOL and staff were police-educated in their home country.
3 Q. What is your level of military training?
4 A. It's very low. I don't -- I haven't received any military
6 Q. In general, do you agree with the findings in this report?
7 A. I do, in general, yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. FROLICH: Could we have this document tendered into evidence.
10 MR. KEHOE: No objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Let me see, this was number 28 --
12 MS. FROLICH: 228.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, P228 is admitted into evidence.
14 MS. FROLICH: Could we have P225 on the screen, please.
15 Q. Mr. Elleby, do you recognise this document?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. What is it, sir?
18 A. It's an assessment of the situation in Knin, which I wrote on the
19 16th of August.
20 Q. Do you know under what circumstances what this report produced?
21 A. It was produced after a patrol in Knin town.
22 Q. Who made this patrol?
23 A. I made the patrol. I'm pretty sure that the station commander of
24 Knin CIVPOL station joined, Mr. Petrov Romassev, and we had an
25 interpreter with us.
1 Q. What purpose did this assessment report serve?
2 A. The purpose of the document was to assess the situation at that
3 time in Knin and to pass the knowledge on to headquarter in Zagreb.
4 Q. Was there anyone else that you would pass information about
5 this -- from this report to?
6 A. Yes. I would typically discuss this observation with Mr. Romanic
7 at the Knin police station.
8 Q. Can you explain what you meant by saying in paragraph 4 of this
9 document that the town of Knin is like Tombstone, Arizona in 1881?
10 A. I'm sorry for that colorful description. What I meant was that
11 it was quite lawless. I wasn't -- I wasn't convinced that there was law
12 and order in Knin at that time, so everybody had to be very careful.
13 Q. Where did you observe the looting incidents you mentioned in this
15 A. These looting incidents I observed in the main street, which also
16 was marked on the map we saw before.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. FROLICH: If this document could be admitted into evidence,
20 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, P225 is admitted into
22 MS. FROLICH: If we could have P281 on screen.
23 Q. Mr. Elleby, do you recognise this image?
24 A. Yes, I recognise it.
25 Q. Where did you see it?
1 A. I saw this -- this sign on -- on soldiers in Knin, and specific
2 in the situation where my land lady car were stolen, I'm sure the
3 soldiers wore this sign on their soldiers.
4 Q. If this image can be admitted into evidence, please?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, P281 is admitted into
7 MS. FROLICH:
8 Q. In your 1997 statement, on page 3 --
9 MS. FROLICH: I don't have the 65 ter number with me, sorry.
10 Page 3 in B/C/S as well.
11 Q. -- you mention you had the impression that the looting went on
12 in three stages. How did you know about this? What gave you the
14 A. Well, the impression came that when we were allowed to get out
15 barracks on the 8th of August, we visited the CIVPOL monitors'
16 accommodations and there had been looting going on everywhere and it was
17 my opinion that nobody else than the 1st brigades of the Croatian army
18 had access to the town. And as the observations were made later on, and
19 the looting still was going on, it was the impression that other
20 authorities or civilians also did the looting.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarifying question.
22 You just said that you recognised that image. Now, on the screen
23 you saw a badge with an image and text. Was it that you recognised the
24 image only or the text as well?
25 THE WITNESS: I only recognised the image, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you remember whether there was any
2 text, whatever that text would be, above that image?
3 THE WITNESS: No, I don't remember.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. FROLICH: I just wanted to note that the 1997 statement was
7 P215 for ease of reference.
8 Q. You mention in the same statement on the same page that -- page
9 3, that were continuously houses on fire in the area. What do you base
10 this on?
11 A. I base it on some reports and what the discussion was when there
12 were meetings in the headquarter in CIVPOL Knin, that everybody was
13 mentioning and discussing the fires going on, and I also base it on my
14 own observations when I made the trips out of Knin or in the area of
16 Q. How often did you leave Knin during your time in the sector?
17 A. Well, when we first was allowed to move out of Knin in cars, it
18 was approximately once a week.
19 Q. And afterwards did that change or was it -- did that pattern
20 remain the same?
21 A. Well, that pattern remained more or less the same.
22 Q. Now, let me turn to the relationship you had with Mr. Romanic and
23 Mr. Cetina that you speak about in your statements as representatives of
24 civilian police.
25 What was the general response that you received from Mr. Romanic
1 on crimes that were reported to the civilian police?
2 A. Well, first of all, I didn't have that much meetings with
3 Mr. Romanic, but when we were discussing the crimes, he was actually
4 polite enough, but I never got any really answers or documentation of
5 investigation or other policing steps made in -- in the cases.
6 Q. Did you ask for such documents or answers?
7 A. Yes, I asked for the answers and the documentations, but I don't
8 remember receiving any.
9 Q. Based on your interactions with Mr. Romanic, how much authority
10 did he have?
11 A. Well, my opinion was that it was pretty narrow and that he to ask
12 Mr. Cetina for quite a lot.
13 Q. For what did he have to ask Mr. Cetina, for example?
14 A. Well, one example I remember, we would like to take some
15 photographs in Knin to document what was happening and how the town was
16 looking, and he couldn't give that permission himself and had to ask
18 Q. Was this permission granted?
19 A. No, it was never granted.
20 MS. FROLICH: If we could have D179 on screen, please.
21 Q. Mr. Elleby, do you recognise this document?
22 A. Yes, I recognise the document.
23 Q. And what -- what is this document.
24 Oh, I apologise. Before you answer, Mr. Elleby, in B/C/S the
25 correct translation starts on page 8. The translation document contains
1 translations of other documents that are not relevant. Yes. I believe
2 we have the right page on screen now.
3 So, Mr. Elleby, what is this document?
4 A. This document is a forwarded letter to which there was a list
5 attached of the murders reported to me and to headquarter by CIVPOL
6 monitors and humanitarian right action teams, and I request for policing
8 MS. FROLICH: Can we go to page 2. That is page 9 in the B/C/S.
9 Q. What is this -- what does this page contain?
10 A. This page contains a compilation of sitrep report, inc-reps
11 reports showing killed people in the area.
12 Q. Who compiled this list?
13 A. I compiled this list from incidents reports.
14 MS. FROLICH: If we could go to page 11. That is page 26 in
16 Q. What about this list, Mr. Elleby? What does it show?
17 A. This list shows other violations or harassments in the same
18 period and so it's a list of crimes.
19 Q. And who compiled this list?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. And could you tell us what do the numbers that stand before every
22 incident signify?
23 A. As far as I remember, this is the numbers of the incident
25 Q. Thank you. Now, how did Mr. Cetina receive this letter?
1 A. I handed it to him in person.
2 Q. Can you tell us what was his response upon receiving this letter?
3 A. Yes. It was -- it was a very short meeting. I handed over the
4 letter and he read it, and he asked me to leave his office.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, my final set of questions for you are in
6 relation to the military in the sector.
7 From your interaction with Croat authorities in the Sector South,
8 you mentioned that the overall authority in charge in the Sector South
9 was the military. What do you base that on?
10 A. Well, I mainly base that on that our freedom of movement was
11 regulated by the military, and it was the general impression that the
12 military was in charge of everything that was going on in Knin in those
14 Q. Do you have any concrete examples, other than this restriction of
16 A. Yes, I do. It's in -- after we -- we moved out, the civilian --
17 UN civilian police and so the former civilian police station in Knin,
18 some civilian Croats wanted us to move out again. They claimed that they
19 owned the house. And we went to the liaison officer. We had two liaison
20 officers in the military, one in the army and I think the other one was a
21 marine, and we asked for help to -- to stay in the house, but they
22 couldn't help us so we had to move the station out.
23 Q. Why did you go to military liaison officers?
24 A. Well, as I remember it now, I don't think it would have meant
25 anything to go to the -- the Knin police.
1 Q. And why is that?
2 A. I don't think Mr. Romanic could have helped us.
3 Q. Mr. Elleby, have you ever meant General Cermak?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich, could I ask one question for
6 When asked about the authority of the military, you said "in
7 those days." Your view or your impression or your experience that the
8 military were in control, did that change at any time or was that on from
9 Operation Storm the situation until you left?
10 THE WITNESS: Well, it can only be an impression, Your Honour,
11 but I think it changed a little. But I left in the end of September, and
12 the changes, I remember, it wasn't very big but there were more civilians
13 in Knin at that time than the first two or three weeks after the
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There being more civilians doesn't mean that
16 was then the authority of those civilians. What kind of civilians were
18 THE WITNESS: That were Croatian civilians moving back to Knin
19 probably where they have lived before 1991/1992. But my impression was
20 that the thing was getting more normalised so that the military was not
21 that much in control as in the first days after the attack.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. FROLICH: I would just like to ask another clarifying
1 Q. When -- do you remember when the incident with -- when you had to
2 visit the two military liaison officers took place?
3 A. No, I don't remember the date.
4 Q. Do you -- would you be able to remember approximately at which
5 point of your stay in Knin?
6 A. That's very difficult. Maybe two, three weeks after Operation
8 Q. Thank you.
9 And, Mr. Elleby, have you ever met General Cermak?
10 A. No, I don't think I have met the General.
11 Q. Do you know who he was?
12 A. I know who he was, because he was spoken of at the staff meeting
13 with the UN military.
14 Q. What was his position, if you know?
15 A. As far as I remember, the talks about him, he was -- he was head
16 of the military in the Knin area.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Elleby.
18 MS. FROLICH: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Frolich.
20 Mr. Kay, you will be the first one who cross-examine Mr. Elleby.
21 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour, by agreement between the parties, I
22 will be going first.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Elleby, you will now be cross-examined by
24 Mr. Kay who is counsel for Mr. Cermak.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:
1 Q. Just taking up your last passage of evidence concerning
2 Mr. Cermak whom you described as being in charge of the military in the
3 region, would you say you had a good knowledge of the workings of the
4 Croatian army military system?
5 A. No, I couldn't claim that.
6 Q. Did you ever meet General Gotovina?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. How many times?
9 A. I met Mr. Gotovina only once.
10 Q. Where was that?
11 A. It was at a concert at -- at the castle in Knin.
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. I don't remember the date. I think -- I assume it was end
14 August, beginning September.
15 Q. And how were you introduced to him?
16 A. There were a lot of invited guests at the concert and I was with
17 them in the front row, and one or two other officers came with the
18 General, and told us who he was and we shook hands and then he left.
19 Q. You were introduced by whom to him? Were they Croatian army
20 officers or were they UN officers of some description?
21 A. That was Croatian army officers.
22 Q. So Croatian army officers and what rank were they?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. And did you know them?
25 A. No, I don't think so.
1 Q. How did they know you?
2 A. I was in my CIVPOL uniform next to other guests, ICMM monitors,
3 UNMOs, a lot of different uniforms at the front row.
4 Q. And were you introduced as the head of UN CIVPOL if that was your
5 position at the time or deputy chief?
6 A. That was my position at the time. I don't remember the words he
7 said when introduced me.
8 Q. Right. And how was he introduced to you, General Gotovina, as
10 A. As General Gotovina.
11 Q. Right.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. In any other form?
14 A. Not as far as I remember.
15 Q. And did you ever go to the zborna mjesta, headquarters, the
16 garrison command headquarters in Knin?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Do you know if that place was General Cermak's office?
19 A. Only from spoken of at the meetings in the UN compound.
20 Q. Right. And did you know that that place was previously a JNA
21 Dom? Do you know what I mean by that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Yes. People who visited the region, pick up these expressions
24 and understand what it means.
25 A JNA Dom being what sort of place?
1 A. A barrack. And the RSK was there as well before Operation Storm.
2 Q. And did you go there when the RSK was there?
3 A. Yes, I was there a couple of times.
4 Q. And it was a place with a big dining-room and kitchen?
5 A. I don't remember any dining-room or kitchen. I visited the RSK
6 commander a couple of times in his office.
7 Q. Did you go to the RSK headquarters?
8 A. If it is not the same place, then I didn't.
9 Q. It's not the same place and perhaps we'll look at a photograph
10 because that might help you.
11 A. Okay.
12 MR. KAY: 2D02-0067, please. Oh, wrong one.
13 Q. While we're here we'll deal with that.
14 Is that a photograph of the Knin police station; do you recognise
16 A. Yes, I recognise it. It's a picture of the Knin police station.
17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, if I could tender that into evidence as an
18 exhibit while it on the screen.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich, I understand no objections.
20 Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D225, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D225 is admitted into evidence.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. KAY:
25 Q. The other photograph I wanted to show you is 2D02-0068.
1 Do you recognise those buildings on the main street in Knin?
2 A. Only vaguely.
3 Q. You've never been in either?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Right. Do you know what they were called?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Right. Can't take that any further.
8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, this will be a piece of evidence I doubt
9 of any controversy. I tender it for -- as evidence if it can be given an
10 exhibit number.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich.
12 MS. FROLICH: No objection, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D226.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D226 is admitted into evidence. And I take it that
16 we will learn about it at a later stage, Mr. Kay.
17 MR. KAY: Yeah.
18 Q. I'm now going to turn to policing issues from military issues but
19 we may go into them slightly on the way and I'm going to ask you some
20 questions now about your planning on the 4th of August when Operation
21 Storm started.
22 Would it be right to say that when that event occurred you would
23 have had to consider what your policing role was, because it would have
24 been very different, I would imagine, from that you had been undertaking
25 in the weeks before.
1 A. Yes, it became very different. In the first hours, and days,
2 actually, after the operation the most important thing was to account for
3 everyone in the UNCIVPOL. We were still after, I think, two days missing
4 an officer but he showed up. So the work there was, so to say, gather
5 the force.
6 Q. Yes. You are an experienced policeman, I take it, and I ask that
7 question just for the record because of the questions I'm going to ask
8 afterwards, being chief of the UNCIVPOL at that time. Would you agree?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When the liberation of Knin occurred on the 5th of August, I dare
11 say that your plans and strategy had to change again. You had gone from
12 a position where the Republika Srpska Krajina was in control to a
13 conflict and then to a liberation. Three stages within two days. Would
14 that be right that your plans and strategy for CIVPOL would have to
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Were you conscious that there was now a new government in power
18 in relation to the region where you were stationed?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you conscious that the political position had changed in
21 that the sovereign state Croatia was now in control of its own territory?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you appreciate that it was not an army or a police or a
24 government of occupation, if you understand the distinction, but it was
25 its own territory?
1 A. Yes, I was appreciating that.
2 Q. Did you start to make plans as to how UN CIVPOL was going to work
3 in this new situation?
4 A. Yes, but I didn't do it alone. It was of course the UN
5 headquarter in Zagreb who was making the strategy and then we would just
6 operational that strategy in the sectors.
7 Q. You were on the ground receiving advice from Zagreb, and in
8 relation to that advice did you receive information as to how the
9 Croatian police force was structured?
10 A. I don't remember having detailed information about that.
11 Q. From the 5th of August, did the type of mandate that you had to
12 be in the region, did it change?
13 A. There was a lot insecurity [Realtime transcript read in error
14 "security"] about the mandate. And what we tried to do was to -- to
15 monitor, still monitor the policing and look after minorities. Now the
16 minorities was the Serbian minority, and before the Storm it was a
17 Serbian minority. And as the monitors had moved quite a lot in the
18 sector they knew where to look now for mostly elderly Serbian population.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elleby, may I take it it was a mistake where you
20 said "and before the Storm it was a Serbian minority." I take it that
21 you wanted to say Croatian minority.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MR. KAY:
25 Q. And on the transcript before me it says security about the
1 mandate. I believe you said insecurity about the mandate.
2 A. We were discussing the mandate quite a lot with HQ in Zagreb.
3 Q. Yes. And was your phrase there was an insecurity about the
4 mandate because you didn't know -- you were in new waters. Is that
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Thank you. You knew, though, that from the 5th of August with
8 this change of government and a change of control of the area that you
9 would have to be liaising with the Croatian police?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was liaison with the Croatian army military police something that
12 would have come within your scope of reference?
13 A. No, I don't think so.
14 Q. Did you have any joint meetings and discussion with the Croatian
15 police as to how you were going to operate and what you were going to do?
16 A. Yes. I had a few meeting with Mr. Romanic who was head of the
17 Knin police.
18 Q. And when was the first contact that you had with the Croatian
20 A. I don't remember the first contact.
21 Q. Shall we try and explore it, because it might be important.
22 A. Mm-hm.
23 Q. We're dealing with days of events and it might be important.
24 You referred to the fact that you were able to leave Knin on the
25 8th of August.
1 A. No, I have to correct that.
2 Q. To get out of the camp?
3 A. Yes. We were only allowed to get out of the compound on the 8th
4 and make short patrols in Knin.
5 Q. Yes. Did you meet with the local Croatian police commander on
6 that date?
7 A. I don't think I did.
8 Q. Was it about a week later?
9 A. I think we're getting closer there. Must have been a week or
10 maybe maximum two weeks later.
11 Q. Right. Did you appreciate that the Croatian government had to
12 rapidly establish a police presence in Knin?
13 A. Yes, that was very necessary.
14 Q. In your experience as a police officer, after a conflict, the
15 establishment of a competent and efficient police force would be a high
16 property. Is that right?
17 A. I should think so, yes.
18 Q. Yes.
19 MR. KAY: Shall we just look at -- a short piece of film that was
20 used in the opening of the Gotovina case, Your Honour, at the start of
21 the trial which hasn't become an exhibit but I will have it played as it
22 will put matters into context.
23 Can we have 2D02-0064.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, is there any text involved?
25 MR. KAY: There is text and it has been subtitled.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Has the text also been given to the booth?
2 MR. KAY: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 MR. KAY: Can we play.
5 [Videotape played]
6 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Dear Mr. Chief, please allow me to
7 hand over to you the signboard bearing the inscription 'Ministry of
8 Interior ...Republic of Croatia, Ministry of the Interior, Police
9 Administration Knin.' It is provided by the Constitutional Law on Ethnic
10 Minorities of the Republic of Croatia that Knin has a district /Kotar/
11 and accordingly the police administration should be established in Knin.
12 "Since according to the aforementioned law, an assembly has not
13 been legitimately elected yet, and upon this assembly's proposal the
14 chief is appointed by the government of Republic of Croatia, I hereby
15 appoint you the acting chief until the elections take place here and the
16 assembly is elected, whereupon the assembly will propose to the
17 government of the Republic of Croatia the chief.
18 "Until then I am assigning to you the task to perform any
19 activities provided by the constitution of the Republic of Croatia and
20 the laws of the Republic of Croatia to establish civilian authorities in
21 Knin and in the area of your police administration, in your area of
22 responsibility, you are linked up with the police administration Zadar.
24 MR. KAY: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich.
1 MS. FROLICH: Even though I'm not sure what Mr. Kay is going to
2 ask for, but if we could just have the provenance of this video explained
3 a little bit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, could you.
5 MR. KEHOE: It is a newsreel taken on the 6th of August of 1995
6 of the opening of Knin police station. Your Honour will remember it
7 being shown during the opening address of Gotovina team. I do not think
8 that this is a controversial film. It stands as a fact and I'm sure the
9 Prosecution probably have a copy of it, if anyone made any research.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, broadcasting company, local,
11 national, Croatian?
12 MR. KAY: It's HTV.
13 JUDGE ORIE: HTV. That is Croatian TV.
14 MR. KAY: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: National TV.
16 MR. KAY: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich.
18 MS. FROLICH: Just wanted to place that on the record. There is
19 no objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No objection.
21 Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D227.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D227 is admitted into evidence.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
25 MR. KAY: Thank you.
1 Q. Just to deal with a few questions in relation to that picture you
2 probably recognise Mr. Romanic in the film?
3 A. I was looking at the faces. Here 13 years after, I'm not sure.
4 Q. Right. You saw the plaque being presented to a gentleman. Did
5 you recognise him?
6 A. I'm not sure.
7 Q. Okay. At the end of the statement by the minister of the
8 interior who opened the police station, he referred to the link with
9 Zadar, and that is a link that you would understand. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That was the superior police administration to that of Knin and
12 it was the police administration from which Mr. Cetina came. Is that
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. That film was taken and those events happened on the 6th of
16 August, so that when you arrived in Knin on the 8th of August, and by
17 that, I mean the town of Knin, from the compound, had you appreciated
18 that the police station was opened on that date?
19 A. I don't remember I did it on that specific date, but of course I
20 noticed that the Croatian police were in the building.
21 Q. Right. I'd just like now to look at some organigrams as they're
22 relevant to the text that we saw. And the first is 2D02-0055.
23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, this has been served on the lead counsel
24 for the Prosecution in advance, and three organigrams I'm going to
25 produce which derive from their evidence sources are not challenged.
1 MS. FROLICH: Yes, that's correct.
2 MR. KAY: If we can have the first organigram and can it be given
3 an exhibit number.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D228.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D228, I take it that since you agree on the sources
7 that there is it no objection against admission.
8 MS. FROLICH: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then D228 is admitted into evidence. As I read on
10 the transcript already.
11 MR. KAY:
12 Q. Just before we look at that in close detail, you yourself went to
13 a meeting on the 30th of August with the Croatian police, including
14 Mr. Romanic, and Mr. Cetina?
15 A. I don't think he was there.
16 Q. Right. Mr. Romanic. And you produced at that time meeting your
17 own organigram as to how you believed their system worked. Is that
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And when you produced that on the 30th of August, there were some
21 corrections that had to be made to that document. Is that right?
22 A. That's right. Mr. Romanic pulled some lines and made some
24 Q. Why I ask these questions about it is we can't find it within the
25 exhibits. Was it a document that you retained and have disclosed to the
1 Prosecution or anyone or did it just disappear?
2 A. I am afraid it disappeared. I haven't seen it since I was in the
4 Q. Right. The purpose of you devising that document and considering
5 the structure of the Kotar-Knin police under Mr. Romanic was because you
6 didn't fully understand at the beginning how their system worked. Is
7 that right?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. And you wanted clarification. Is that right?
10 A. Yes, to make an easier cooperation.
11 Q. And would it be right to say that in the UN meetings you had of
12 senior people, you've described them already and that is how you learned
13 about General Cermak, that you would be asked questions as to how the
14 local police functioned and worked. Is that right?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And it was difficult for you to provide accurate answers?
17 A. Yes, it was very difficult.
18 Q. Would it be fair to you to say that you didn't have access to the
19 laws and decrees of the Croatian government to spend your time making an
20 organigram or learning about the structure of the police force?
21 A. Well, it is beginning from scratch of course. I would have been
22 happy if Mr. Romanic had handed this paper over to me as he's from the
23 February 1995, so he insisted but he didn't give it to me.
24 Q. No, I wasn't interest either so --
25 A. No.
1 Q. It was something that you wanted clarification upon, because you
2 were frustrated in your dealings with the local police. Is that right?
3 A. No, there was no frustration. This is strictly professional. I
4 just wanted to know the structure so I could structure the CIVPOL to
5 match it. There were no frustrations.
6 Q. Okay. You weren't frustrated with Mr. Romanic being unable to
7 make decisions, give you information?
8 A. I think that is -- that's how it is when you're in a mission in a
9 war area in a conflict that's -- no.
10 Q. You accept that the other side may keep their cards close to
11 their chest, do you, that they -- they keep information to themselves
12 rather than to you?
13 A. Yeah, that's quite natural. I think the task is to get
14 confidence and good cooperation so when time moves on you get this
15 information on a friendly matter.
16 Q. Let's have a look at a few matters of detail now.
17 We have the organigram, which is Exhibit D228. The Kotar-Knin
18 police administration. Kotar was because it had a special status, did
19 you know that, Mr. Elleby, in the Croatian constitution?
20 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
21 Q. Right. The chief of that police administration you've already
22 referred to as being Mr. Romanic. He has a deputy and the police
23 stations down on the left-hand side as you look at the organigram are the
24 local police stations within Kotar-Knin. Is that right?
25 A. I recognise most of the names.
1 Q. Yes. Did you visit the police stations that were under
3 A. I only visited Knin station.
4 Q. Right. And Knin police station had a commander called Mr. Mijic.
5 Did you meet him?
6 A. I think I did. It was my coordinators who meetings with
7 Mr. Mijic. I remember his name.
8 Q. Yes. Did you know what his responsibilities were at a local
9 police station level?
10 A. I couldn't say I know it. I assume that it was policing matters
11 in his area of responsibility.
12 Q. Were you drawing from your own experience of policing matters in
13 how you approached this particular issue of understanding how the
14 Croatian system worked?
15 A. In some way you could say that, yes.
16 Q. Yes. And doubtless, the people who worked with you were drawing
17 on their experiences.
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. Did you have any experts within your team working with you in --
20 in Knin on the Croatian police system?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Right. You'll see under -- on the right-hand side of the
23 organigram that there are four divisions. And as a policeman you will
24 probably notice there that there isn't a criminal investigation
25 department. Do you see that?
1 A. I see that.
2 Q. Did you appreciate that at that time?
3 A. I think I found out during my work with this structure that the
4 investigation was managed from Zadar.
5 Q. Yes. When did you discover that, out of interest?
6 A. Ah, I don't know.
7 Q. Right. Did you appreciate what the powers and responsibilities
8 were of those local police stations, what they could do?
9 A. That was what we tried to find out with the meetings with
10 Mr. Romanic and the coordinators meetings with Mr. Mijic.
11 Q. Did you appreciate that, let's just take police station Knin
12 because what was good for it was good for the rest, that that had no
13 criminal investigation department?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It was a basic police force to do with basic ordinary matters.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And by that, we mean traffic, general order --
18 A. Public order.
19 Q. Public order, that's the phrase. And not serious crime?
20 A. Well, do you tell me that it is so or should I comment?
21 Q. Did you know that?
22 A. Well, no, I didn't know that. I think that because the police,
23 uniformed or plain clothed investigation or not, should go to crime of
25 Q. Yes. We're going to look at this in very careful detail, by the
1 way. Because it is important in your evidence, isn't it, your statements
2 where you mention the fact that you got no answers from -- from people.
3 And maybe we can look at these details to provide an explanation.
4 Now --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, may I ask one clarifying question.
6 MR. KAY: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked about there was a -- whether in the
8 Knin police station there was -- whether there was a criminal
9 investigation department and it was put to new a negative and you said
10 yes, which I understood that there was not.
11 In that same question it was included that what was true for Knin
12 or was good for Knin would be good for the rest as well.
13 Do you have any knowledge of that, or do you just not comment on
14 the suggestion implied in that question?
15 THE WITNESS: I don't remember how it was in the other stations,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So whether what was good for Knin is good for the
18 rest is not something that you could either confirm or deny?
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
21 MR. KAY:
22 Q. Should we look at the concept of that, then, Mr. Elleby. This
23 was a -- what you did discover was a highly structured, organised system,
24 is that right, operating at very distinct levels according to decree and
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the police stations we have on the left-hand side of our
3 organigram, the names of which were familiar to you, Knin, Gracac,
4 Korenica, Lapac, Lovinac, Benkovac, Obrovac, were you aware that they
5 were the stations for those particular local districts?
6 A. I don't remember Lapac and Lovinac, but the others I do remember
7 and I know that they were stations for that area.
8 Q. Yes. We've already looked at an exhibit that was produced in my
9 cross-examination of Mr. Flynn, where these stations were identified, and
10 if you'll forgive me, I will just -- D40, please.
11 MR. KAY: Can you go to the next page, please.
12 Q. This again is evidence that comes from the Prosecution,
13 Mr. Elleby, and it refers to opening up of these police stations on
14 various days from the 6th, 5th, to the 9th of August, and can see them
15 named there. And that was information provided to the Defence but used
16 by the Prosecution for this trial.
17 MR. KAY: Thank you very much. No need to look at that any --
18 any further.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, it is not clear what this exercise brings
20 us. Although the Chamber sees it, the witness says he is not aware of
21 two police stations. Now what is different after we've looked at it?
22 The Chamber still is aware of it.
23 MR. KAY: I was hoping to remind Your Honour about that matter
24 and I do so with all due respect. I've asked about these police stations
25 on the left-hand side of the organigram and their status and what powers
1 they have -- I'm sorry.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's not -- of course the Chamber has not expressed
3 any doubt. It's the witness who appears to have no knowledge about two
4 stations, which is fine. There's no -- I don't see what the purpose of
5 this exercise is because the Chamber of course has seen this evidence
7 MR. KAY: I'm sure. I will carry on, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. KAY: Can we look at the next organigram, which is 2D20-0056.
10 Q. It takes time, Mr. Elleby, which is why we're waiting.
11 A. No problem.
12 MR. KAY: Your Honour, this is another agreed organigram which I
13 tender into evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
15 MS. FROLICH: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Frolich.
17 Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D229, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D229 is admitted into evidence.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. KAY:
22 Q. This is it an organigram of the Zadar-Knin police administration,
23 which is a tier above the Kotar-Knin police administration and two levels
24 above those local police stations. And that description by me of the
25 structure, would you agree that's how it was? Local stations, over which
1 was Mr. Romanic, with the Kotar-Knin police administration and above him
2 the Zadar-Knin police administration?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you were dealing with Mr. Romanic and Mr. Cetina who was the
5 chief of Zadar-Knin police administration?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. When did you first meet him?
8 A. I don't remember the date. I think I only met Mr. Cetina two,
9 maximum three times. I only remember clearly the meeting I referred to
11 Q. And you met him for what reason?
12 A. When we -- when I or my colleagues met with the officers on the
13 high levels, it was usually to discuss freedom of movement or things we
14 wanted to do, discussions about how who collaborate with the Croatian
16 Q. You told us that you wrote a letter in September to him, seeking
17 information about the deaths that had occurred in the region.
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. When did you first discuss with him about deaths in the region?
20 A. I don't remember discussing death in the regions with him before
21 this meeting.
22 Q. Right. Just while we're here now, we'll look at this organigram.
23 And you'll see the various departments that are under the Zadar-Knin
24 police administration, including a criminal police department. And was
25 that your understanding of the structure, that Mr. Cetina had more
1 superior resources at his disposal than Mr. Romanic?
2 A. Yes, that was my opinion.
3 Q. And we'll -- we can see in this organigram that there's even a
4 section against war crime and terrorism. Yes?
5 A. Yes, I haven't seen it before today.
6 Q. Did you know they had a war crimes section within the Zadar-Knin
7 police administration?
8 A. No.
9 Q. They've also got a general crime section and an investigation
10 section, which you can see at the bottom of the tree. Were you aware of
12 A. No, I didn't know this detailed structure.
13 Q. And they had a support department of the crime police section of
14 police station Knin. Were you aware of that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you appreciate that all serious crimes were matters that were
17 to be investigated by the Zadar-Knin police administration whose chief
18 was Mr. Cetina?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. Would it be correct to say that at the Knin level, where
21 Mr. Romanic was at Kotar-Knin police administration, he did not have the
22 same investigation resources as the superior authority at Zadar-Knin?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Yes. Are you able to help as to when you realised that?
25 A. Well, I didn't know at all there this was this detailed
1 structure, as you show me today, but of course we became more and more
2 clear of how the Croatian police were structured.
3 Q. Yeah.
4 A. I think that's as close as I can get at it.
5 Q. You see, looking at your evidence, reading your statement and
6 what you've said in court, would it be right to say it seemed that you
7 were very frustrated by the lack of information that Mr. Romanic could
8 give you?
9 A. I was not frustrated; I was curious.
10 Q. Right. Why he couldn't?
11 A. Well, I was wondering why he didn't give it to us. But I believe
12 he had his reason.
13 Q. Did you ever appreciate that he was not in control of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You appreciated that, that dead bodies that you found and asked
17 to be investigated would have to be investigated not by his Kotar-Knin
18 police administration but by the Zadar-Knin police administration.
19 A. I did, of course. But I still found that he was the key for to
20 us get a move on in the policing of these matters.
21 Q. Yes, I have no need to deal with any further matters now on the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I must admit that the relation between what
24 we find in D228 and D229 is not perfectly clear to me. Also, because
25 under the heading of criminal police department, we do not only find
1 those sections that you -- a few of which you mentioned, but we also find
2 reference to the crime police apparently in the various police stations,
3 section of police station Gracac, and it strikes me that we've got here
4 six whereas on D228 we had seven. So, therefore, it's still -- I do see
5 that apparently there were specialised units under a heading criminal
6 police department, which apparently was under the Zadar-Knin police
7 administration. At the same time we see that there were local police
8 stations with crime police as well, and it's not -- your suggestion to
9 the witness, which he did not contradict, what kind of a division of task
10 there was between the locals and that the more serious crime was at
11 another place, that at least does not become apparent right away from
12 this organigram.
13 I just wanted to let you know that this was on my mind and leave
14 it to you whether or not to further explore the matter or leave it at a
15 later stage, but usually when I do understand or when matters are clear
16 to me I usually don't say a thing but if it is unclear to me I now and
17 then express my confusion.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, perhaps if we look at a document it
20 might even help see the process in action.
21 Can we have Prosecution 65 ter 4619. I'll deal with this quickly
22 before the break, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you can do it within the next five minutes.
24 MR. KAY: Yes, it will be quicker, I hope.
25 Q. Here we have just as a sample report as I thought the question
1 might be asked, and you can see it actually concerns a deceased Sava
2 Babic, pertinent to this case. You can see that it is from the Knin
3 district police administration, that is Mr. Romanic's police
4 administration, dated the 6th of September to the Zadar-Knin police
5 administration, criminal police department.
6 I don't know whether you know the facts about this pretty
7 horrific murder. It's one that's been mentioned in this court. I can't
8 remember whether it was one that you have referred to in your documents,
9 Mr. Elleby.
10 A. I remember this case.
11 Q. Yes. I'm not asking you detail about the case. It's just what
12 happens to this investigation. There are you, Sava Babic, born, date.
13 And then we see that Mr. Romanic has sent this letter on page 2, with an
14 enclosure from UNCIVPOL, Sector South. To HQ Knin, memo, and it gives
15 the details following the finding of the killed Sava Babic, that there
16 had been a request from the UN of the Knin district police
17 administration. PU means police administration. Information on the
18 circumstances of her death, what measures were taken and in what way the
19 on-site investigation was carried out.
20 So that's this inquiry, as a result of this murder, moving from
21 Kotar-Knin police administration up to Zadar-Knin police administration,
22 to the criminal department, and inquiring of the on-site investigations.
23 And were you aware that the on-site investigations, forensic
24 analysis were done by officers from the Zadar-Knin police administration?
25 A. I think I am aware if it should have been. It should have been
1 the staff from Zadar.
2 Q. And putting it in -- in a very simple way, all the forensics, all
3 the technical information, all the investigation tools were to be found
4 in Zadar-Knin, rather than down in Kotar-Knin police administration. Am
5 I right.
6 A. Yes, you're right.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. KAY: I hope that assists Your Honours' question. And may we
9 have this admitted into evidence, please.
10 MS. FROLICH: No objection, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D230, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D230 is admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed -- oh, no, we're not going to proceed. We'll have
15 a break first.
16 MR. KAY: Yes, thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elleby, we'll take a break for 25 minutes.
18 We resume at quarter past 4.00.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would -- the Chamber would like to go
23 into private session.
24 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
21 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
22 Mr. Kay, could you give us any idea on how much time you had
23 would need.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 MR. KAY: There is a significant moment of documentation that's
1 actually going to be presented in summary form, as it comes from the
2 Prosecution 65 ter list and proposed 65 ter list, and it is a compendium
3 of reports concerning clearing of the terrain in the region. And I hope,
4 with the Court's leave, I can deal with that in a brief form, as the
5 documents speak for themselves, once you've done the first two or three
6 and get to the end of a report and with the Court's leave, that will
7 reduce time considerably and I would say I should be completed within
8 another three hours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes Ms. Frolich, of course whether or not the Court
10 will grant leave also sometimes depends on the position taken by the
11 Prosecution. Have you discussed the matter with Mr. Kay?
12 MS. FROLICH: Well, we have not previously discussed this matter
13 now during the break with Mr. Kay, but these documents, we do not object
14 to these documents clearly. They are on our exhibit list. Of course as
15 to what inferences might be made that's a different matter.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. I do understand that, but it's just
17 the way in which the evidence will be presented and that of course has
18 its effect on the time used in court.
19 Could I ask from other Defence counsel whether there any
20 indication that could have already been given so that we --
21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, an hour or so. I just -- it's a
22 matter of course of going through some of these documents that are here
23 so ... maybe a little bit more. Hopefully, Your Honour, less, but with
24 give that ballpark figure.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, an hour or less. Probably less.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The parties are urged to seek to present the
3 evidence as efficiently as possible.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
5 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour, and I will bear Your Honour's remarks
6 in mind. Can we look at the third organigram 2D02-0057.
7 Q. While that is coming up on the screen, there is an organigram of
8 the Split-Dalmatia police administration whose chief was Mr. Sipsi
10 Were you aware of the Split-Dalmatia police administration being
11 superior to that of Zadar-Knin being the third level or fourth level?
12 A. I was not aware of this structure you show me now. The only
13 thing besides Zadar I remember is some meetings in Sibenik with Mr. Goran
14 Grguruzin. If he is part of this structure, then I met it, but I didn't
15 know how it was put together.
16 Q. Right. Did you appreciate what the level of control above
17 Mr. Cetina was?
18 A. No, I didn't know the level above him.
19 Q. All right. Would it be right to say that that is a matter of
20 interest to a police officer because it depends upon the hierarchy or for
21 whom you're working, under whose orders?
22 A. Yes. But the CIVPOL HQ in Zagreb deal with the levels above
23 Mr. Cetina.
24 Q. Right. I'm just looking at it for purposes of information
25 quickly. You can see the various sectors that there are. We've looked
1 at sections, this is sectors, criminal police sector, department against
2 war crime and terrorism and crime investigation department.
3 Just in your experience as a police officer would it be right to
4 say that the more serious crimes are, the further up the levels of
5 command responsibility for the conduct of investigations goes?
6 A. Yes, I believe you could say that.
7 Q. Yes. Can we take it from your evidence and the summary of it in
8 court that your view was that the offences happening within Sector South,
9 which you were receiving reports of and your -- your own evidence, was a
10 serious level of crime during the period that you were there?
11 A. There were serious crime, yes.
12 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask you some questions now about the Knin
13 police station. We remember the photograph that we saw at the start of
14 your evidence. How many times did you go into that building?
15 A. I must have been in that building maybe ten or 12 times.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. Just to supplement that answer, I was there before the Operation
18 Storm as well.
19 Q. Right. When the Croatian police were in charge of the police
20 station, are you able to give us any information as to your number of
21 visits there during the two months?
22 A. Well, that was the number of visits.
23 Q. I see. Right. And there you met Mr. Romanic. Is that right?
24 A. Yes. But that -- not that many times.
25 Q. Right. You say not that many times, and we note your
1 supplemental information before this Court, saying you meant him only two
2 or three times. But your statements that you gave and have been part of
3 your evidence in this court, indicate a greater frequency. Is that
5 A. The plan was to meet with Mr. Romanic once a week.
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. But I think I only succeeded meeting him that number, two or
8 three times, maybe four, for a little period.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to object you have to do it --
10 MS. FROLICH: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- and I see you're a bit hesitant, so therefore I
12 waited until you had overcome your hesitation.
13 MS. FROLICH: I'm sorry. I thought you were going acknowledge
14 me, so there was some confusion. No. I believe this question was asked
15 of the witness during the scope of direct examination a number of times
16 that --
17 MR. KAY: That doesn't stop cross-examination, I hope; otherwise,
18 I'll never be able to ask any questions.
19 MS. FROLICH: The witness has already answered that question.
20 MR. KAY: Yes, but --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and sometimes if you want to challenge such an
22 answer, you put that question to a witness again.
23 MR. KAY: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And the "question asked, question answered" phrase
25 is used if examining counsel puts again the same question and not other
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KAY: Thank you.
4 Q. As a police officer you're used to reading witness statements, I
5 dare say, producing witness statements from witnesses as well. Is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you -- do you agree with my suggestion that your statements
9 reveal a greater frequency and contact between you and Mr. Romanic than
10 the two, three, or now four meetings that has been provided to this Court
11 as supplemental information?
12 A. Yes, there is an difference.
13 Q. Right. Can you explain why your supplemental information is
14 different from that contained within your statements?
15 A. Well, the only explanation is that the memory is a bit dim after
16 13 years, for sometimes I didn't deal with the mission at all, and
17 between the interviews then it comes back to you, and -- so I have been
18 trying to remember the correct information.
19 Q. Sometimes when a witness gives information to a party in a
20 statement or in supplemental information form, as has happened here, it
21 depends upon what questions are asked to make the information or to give
22 sense for the information. Is that right? Would you agree with that?
23 A. Hmm, I think in some way, yes.
24 Q. How a question is put, what suggestion there may be behind it, is
25 it -- would it be right to say that now you remember two or three or four
1 meetings, but earlier in time, when your statements were made in 1997,
2 1995, I've forgotten the rest of the dates, but earlier in time, that you
3 had a memory of more frequent meetings?
4 A. What I can say today is I think today that I met with Mr. Romanic
5 between two and four times for the period.
6 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to go any further into this now.
7 I just want to look at the situation that the Knin Croatian
8 police force were faced.
9 Would you agree that after the events of the 5th of August that
10 the Knin police station needed to be well-equipped with criminal
11 investigators, forensic technical support to deal with the situation that
12 it faced from the 5th of August?
13 A. Yes. But it -- it must have been a part of a bigger plan, how to
14 split the tasks between the civilian police and military police, special
15 police and the army. And I don't know how -- how that structure was.
16 Q. Right. But you would have expected a coordination between those
17 two, the military police and the civil police?
18 A. I don't -- no, I don't think so.
19 Q. If you were planning these matters, and you are a police expert,
20 you would have set up a system of cooperation between the civil police
21 and military police. Is that right?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. Yes. That's what I was getting at.
24 A. Okay, okay, I'm sorry.
25 Q. Yes. Within that Knin police station that we saw in the
1 photograph, what sort of resources could you see and equipment?
2 A. I don't remember seeing any special equipments. I saw officers
3 and officers and I meant there with Mr. Romanic, and I believe that
4 Mr. Mijic has his office there as well.
5 Q. Yes. The local Knin police station was within the Kotar-Knin
6 police administration building.
7 Do you know how many police cars they had?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Or police motor bikes?
10 A. I don't remember seeing any.
11 Q. Or police vehicles?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know how many policemen were in the -- working for the
14 Kotar-Knin police administration at a practical level because you have
15 administration staff and policemen, at a policemen level?
16 A. I don't know the number.
17 Q. Right. What is the normal ratio between support administration
18 staff and active policemen?
19 A. Well, it should be less than 10 percent I think.
20 Q. Yes. Is that the position in your country?
21 A. I think it is.
22 Q. Yes. In relation to the local police -- the Knin police station
23 of Mr. Mijic although in the same building, do you know how many active
24 policemen he had?
25 A. No, I don't know the number.
1 Q. Right. Your experience as a policemen outside your own country
2 has been in this area of conflict. Have you been in other areas where
3 there has been conflict?
4 A. Only very briefly.
5 Q. Right. I want to look at things such as check-points. To have
6 an effective check-point, to deal with the passage of vehicles and the
7 searching of vehicles and preventing goods being taken on lorries that
8 are stolen, the sort of problem that we're dealing with in this case, do
9 you know how many policemen it would take to mount an effective
11 A. I wouldn't know.
12 Q. If I put a few matters to you, would that -- would you be able to
13 agree or disagree?
14 A. Well, sure, I could make a plan for it, but it depends on the
16 Q. Yes. To have an effective check-point you would need people
17 around perhaps with intelligence to see what is happening and whether
18 people are going around your check-point and taking farm tracks. Would
19 you agree with that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Radio communication system?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You would need people on the actual check-point itself, so that
24 any vehicle that was being stopped and the driver or otherwise who didn't
25 want to be stopped could be controlled.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you would need men with guns. And a sufficient number to be
3 able to show the threat of force as well as to deal with a hostile
4 incident. Would you agree?
5 A. Yes, I agree.
6 Q. About eight people, something, ten people?
7 A. Depending on the task.
8 Q. Yes. You would also need someone to be able to deal with
9 communications on your behalf to your HQ, to let them know if anything
10 went wrong. Would you agree with that?
11 A. Yes, I would.
12 Q. And these people can't be out there all day. You need a shift
13 system and you as a senior police officer probably have to recognise that
14 shifts of -- three shifts within 24 hours is the generally acceptable
15 level. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, you're now doing all the planning for
18 Mr. Elleby, more or less. Could you come no your point. To the point is
19 not clear yet that is that you need a lot of things to have an effective
21 MR. KAY:
22 Q. We've looked at a few things and His Honour rightly wants me to
23 get to the point, and if I said 40 to 50 people to man a single effective
24 check-point against a town in a time of trouble, and I don't mean at one
25 stage but throughout the day as people have to rest, wouldn't seem
1 unreasonable to you as a senior police officer.
2 A. No. Again depending on the task, it wouldn't seem unreasonable.
3 Q. Yeah. The task we've got here, yeah. Which is, as we agreed, a
4 serious task. Yes. Thank you.
5 In establishing a police station in this region at this time
6 would you agree that you would ideally need officers of -- with
7 particular expertise in various branches of policing?
8 A. Yes, I would.
9 Q. Again, I don't want to go through all the detail, but handling
10 intelligence, handling weapons, running the show, different -- people
11 with expertise. Would you agree?
12 A. I would agree.
13 Q. Yes. Did you see that kind of expertise being used in this
14 region when you were there as deputy chief and chief of CIVPOL, this
15 ideal system of policing?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. No. Would it be right to say, as you went to these UN meetings,
18 that the feeling of the UN was that the success of the Croatian offensive
19 in Operation Storm had taken everyone by surprise? The speed of it, the
20 speed of their success.
21 A. I remember the UN military talking about a very fast and
22 professional military operation.
23 Q. Yes. Did you consider that the Croatians were unprepared for
24 this victory over their liberated area, that they had not prepared and
25 planned --
1 A. I can't answer that.
2 Q. -- adequately?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Right. Was that something you considered, though?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 Q. Okay. Your statement has within it a criticism of the police
7 officers that the -- they did nothing to investigate the killings. And
8 that was a concern of yours at the time. Is that right?
9 A. Yes, it was.
10 MR. KAY: And Your Honours, Exhibit P215, page 3, and Exhibit
11 P216, are the relevant statements.
12 Q. Because you asked Mr. Romanic about what investigative measures
13 were being taken in relation to these killings and why nothing was being
14 done. Is that right?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Because it was a surprise to you. It's not what you thought
17 should happen. Is that right?
18 A. Well, I don't know if was a surprise, but I could -- I could see
19 or I was not told about any measures taken.
20 Q. Yes. Did you appreciate that the clearance of the terrain, the
21 dealing with these dead bodies as a result of the conflict, carried with
22 them different issues of planning. If you're in a war, you plan one way,
23 as there may be several people killed and have you to have a policy for
24 clearing the terrain. And then in the post-conflict situation, you have
25 to have a policy for clearing the terrain.
1 Do you agree with that?
2 A. I agree with that.
3 Q. Yes. And that is something that comes within the normal police
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At this time we are in August, in very hot temperatures. Is that
8 A. Yes, it was hot.
9 Q. And people killed in conflict and people murdered so that bodies
10 are left, the dead body provides a problem because of the high
11 temperatures and heat and the decomposition of the body. Would you agree
12 with that?
13 A. I agree with that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, this is really obvious. I mean dead bodies
15 in a high temperature. There is really no need to ask those questions.
16 Everyone knows that I would say.
17 MR. KAY: The reason will become clear now, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. KAY: Can we look at 65 ter 4950. This comes from a section
20 of documents, Your Honour, that are on the proposed 65 ter lest so
21 haven't entered into the system but arise from this and so what we could
22 do is put it on the ELMO. If the usher -- not those documents,
23 Mr. Monkhouse, but the one I'm holding here.
24 Q. Can you see that, Mr. Elleby?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 MR. KAY: Can everyone else see it? I don't have anything else
2 on my screen here but ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, if you push the ELMO
4 button because then it does not appear under the e-court button.
5 MR. KAY: It's finding it. Thank you.
6 Q. Document dated 4th August to all police administrations.
7 Activation of civil protection. Did you know that the civil protection
8 unit dealt with the clearance of the terrain in relation to dead bodies?
9 A. Yes, I met the civil protection in Knin.
10 Q. Yes. And this here is a document from the Ministry of Internal
11 Affairs signed by Mr. Zidovac [phoen] about what should take place in the
12 aim of protecting life and property of citizens and legal entities. We
13 see on the first page B, civil protection, and if we go to the second
14 page, paragraph 3, Zadar-Knin is mentioned, and it says: "Immediately
15 activate a detachment for hygiene and sanitation measures."
16 And in paragraph 4, "in the said PUs," which means police
17 administration, "in cooperation with military authorities on their
18 approval, engage in the removal of the bodies of the dead in cooperation
19 with the criminal police. Keep records on the discovery of persons
20 killed. Identify, bury, inform operations staff, burial is to be
21 obligatorily carried out in individual graves at local graveyards."
22 And then at 7, this is an order to the police administrations,
23 that one we mentioned Split-Dalmatia police administration to provide
24 people for the clearing up of units.
25 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a start of a series of documents
1 of which this is one of the sequence. I ask that it be admitted into
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich.
4 MS. FROLICH: No objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before, however, we do that, was the Split-Dalmatia
6 police administration already tendered the third organigram?
7 MR. KAY: That's the third organigram.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Was that already tendered, Mr. Registrar, I don't
9 think so, as a matter of fact.
10 MR. KAY: I have been asked to ask for admission of the
11 organigram D20057 which I neglected, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was no objection to it, I take it,
13 Ms. Frolich.
14 MS. FROLICH: Just to mention that on that organigram nowhere
15 does it actually mention the relationship between the Split-Dalmatia
16 police administration and --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's similar to an observation I made earlier
18 but I did not raise that as a matter of admissibility but rather as a
19 question that came into my mind and questions come into your mind as well
20 I see.
21 Mr. Registrar, the third organigram is Split-Dalmatia police
22 administration is?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D231, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D231 is admitted into evidence. And now we move to
25 the next one, then, I take it that was the document that was on the ELMO,
1 4th of August.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, that is 65 ter 04950.
3 MR. KAY: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes Exhibit D232.
5 MR. KAY: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections against that, so D232 is
7 admitted into evidence as well.
8 MR. KAY: And, Your Honour, there is much evidence further down
9 the road that answers the questions of both you and Ms. Frolich.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KAY: 65 ter 1642. Is it up on your screen? This is the
12 next day, the 5th of August, from the assistant minister, Mr. Zidovac
13 again, from the Ministry of Interior, 5th of August, to Zadar-Knin police
14 administration. And it gives the order on that day to undertake
15 immediate hygiene and sanitation measures in the liberated areas of your
16 police administration focussing primarily on discovering, identifying and
17 burying human remains, estimated a large number of bodies of people
18 killed in the area.
19 And we've no need to look at page 3, as I will take this quickly.
20 If we go to 65 ter 4551. While I am doing that may I ask for
21 admission of 65 ter 1642.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich.
23 MS. FROLICH: No objection, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D233, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D233 is admitted into evidence.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KAY: And 65 ter 4551. And this is a document of the 6th of
4 August, and it's a board meeting of the heads of crime investigation
5 departments, and assistant minister, Mr. Benko, is present as the head of
6 the sector, Mr. Nad, and department chiefs and it explains that what the
7 agenda is, handling of hygiene and sanitation measures on the ground, the
8 functioning of the department for war crimes and terrorism.
9 If we go to page 2 of the document. Page 2 of the document at
10 AD 1 shows the decision made on that agenda matter. Police and forensic
11 services department tasked to work on the identification of dead enemy
12 soldiers, dead bodies of civilians. Identify the body. If
13 identification is impossible, the body should be buried under a number.
14 And there was an instruction for coordination and ways of
15 recording the identity of the body. We've no need to turn to page 3 but
16 this was sent to the Zadar-Knin police administration. We'll turn to the
17 7th of August --
18 MR. KAY: May have I that admitted into evidence, please.
19 MS. FROLICH: No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D234 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D234 is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. KAY: The next one is 65 ter 4567. This is a document of the
24 7th of August from the Ministry of Interior, crime police sector, the
25 minutes of a meeting. People are identified at the meeting. On the
1 agenda was tasks in relation to clearing up the terrain. Agenda decision
2 1, since in the area of army activity war operations are being conducted
3 it is crucial to carry out clearing up. It is our task to carry out the
4 identification of persons in the prescribed manner and it is not
5 necessary to conduct on-site investigations.
6 And then decision 2 deals with the collection centres under the
8 Q. Were you aware of the system of investigation under the Croatian
9 police system where on-site investigations would be conducted at the
10 Zadar-Knin police administration level with the forensic experts coming
11 and dealing with the on-site investigation? Were you aware of that?
12 MS. FROLICH: Your Honour.
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. FROLICH: I apologise. I don't know if the 65 ter number was
15 given wrong, but the document that is being shown on the screen, I
16 believe, is not the document that Mr. Kay is talking about. And --
17 MR. KAY: Yeah, you're right.
18 MS. FROLICH: In the binder that was provided to us just half an
19 hour ago.
20 MR. KAY: 65 ter 4567.
21 MS. FROLICH: Also on the list that was provided to us that 65
22 ter is not the document that you are referring to.
23 MR. KAY: Let's put it on the ELMO. Should we --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless I think if you want to tender it
25 into evidence then sooner or later we need the right number.
1 MR. KAY: Yes. What we'll do, Your Honour, we've had to go
2 through a lot of 65 ter numbers that are very difficult. These documents
3 are not together. They are all over the place, as well as proposed
4 documents, and --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's put this document on the ELMO.
6 MR. KAY: Sometimes a typing error may occur on an ERN number.
7 JUDGE ORIE: E-court image appears on the ELMO rather than what
8 is on the ELMO itself. There we are. We even get your annotations with
9 it, Mr. Kay, isn't it?
10 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. Needs must at times --
11 And in fact, I have highlighted the necessary part. "It's not
12 necessary to conduct on-site investigations."
13 I'll just give everybody an opportunity to look at the document.
14 Q. And just to confirm your answer, the on-site investigations were
15 conducted at the Zadar-Knin police administration level. Is that right?
16 A. I think that's right, yes.
17 Q. Yes.
18 MR. KAY: And I have been able to trace -- not me, but someone
19 has been able to trace the right 65 ter number of 4559, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could we have try to get it on our
21 screen, verify.
22 Yes, that apparently is it.
23 MR. KAY: Yes. Hopefully that can be seen. If I could have my
24 copy back.
25 Q. One of the issues within your evidence has been your lack of
1 information about investigations, isn't it? Hasn't it been?
2 A. It has, yes.
3 Q. And this minutes of this meeting, perhaps explain why you weren't
4 getting information. Would you agree?
5 A. I don't know why I wasn't getting that information.
6 Q. Right.
7 A. It's -- no.
8 Q. Okay. Within the Croatian system, as we discuss Zadar-Knin
9 police administration was the body that would do the on-site
10 investigations, because they had the resources. It was not at the Knin
11 police administration level. Is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Yes. From those orders that we're looking at, the decision was
14 being made that bodies should be located, identified, numbered, and then
15 buried without any investigation into the causes of death.
16 MR. KAY: Translation catchup.
17 Q. Is that right?
18 A. I haven't seen these documents before today.
19 Q. No. But you -- I'll not ask another question on -- on the
21 And then if the investigations were not being conducted at the
22 Zadar-Knin police administration level, do you know where, within the
23 system of the Croatian republic, where the responsibility was thereafter
24 for the investigation of causes of death?
25 A. No, I don't know.
1 Q. No. That's all I need ask you about on that.
2 MR. KAY: If we can just look --
3 Just checking whether we've got an exhibit number for that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that we have it yet.
5 MR. KAY: Into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich.
7 MS. FROLICH: No objection, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No objection.
9 Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D235.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D235 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. KAY: And the last document I want to look at is 65 ter 1198,
13 the last document on this matter. Dated the 18th of August.
14 Q. You can see it's from the Ministry of Interior, the MUP, to the
15 police administrations including Zadar-Knin, Zadar and Knin to the
16 chiefs. It's about terrain clearing up. And it raises the issue that
17 the deputy prime minister had warned that several international
18 organisations, through their representatives, keep warning us almost
19 daily that the burial of persons killed in the course of Operation Oluja
20 has not been carried out fully. And telling the chiefs that they're
21 requested to establish as precisely as possible through police station or
22 members in the field whether bodies of persons killed in the course of
23 the operation can still be found anywhere and to ensure that they are
24 urgently buried in the manner established in the course of the operation
25 and refers to the shorter identification procedure.
1 And the end of the paragraph puts into a separate category those
2 who died of natural causes.
3 In your meetings with Mr. Romanic and Mr. Cetina, was one of your
4 matters of concern the dead bodies that were being discovered in the
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And would you -- were you aware from your position of the
8 pressures from the international community for those matters to be dealt
9 with expeditiously, quickly, by the Croatian authorities?
10 A. That, I don't remember anything about.
11 Q. Right. Very well. Thank you very much.
12 MR. KAY: That finishes that topic. Can that be admitted into
13 evidence as well, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich.
15 MS. FROLICH: No objection, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D236, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D236 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. KAY:
20 Q. In your statement, P216, at page 2, the statement of
21 October 2005, you record that you were advising Mr. Romanic to set up
22 structures to perform a more recognised policing function. Is that
24 A. Which paragraph do you refer to, sir?
25 Q. It's a little tricky in my perch here to find that because I'm
1 tied by the ear piece. It is on page 2. But it's for you to set up --
2 you were telling them to set up structures to perform a more recognised
3 policing function. And it was what you said about that. You told us
4 that that statement was the truth when you --
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. -- attested by your 92 ter statement? It's what you meant by
7 that, I don't understand it, and maybe you could elaborate.
8 A. Yes, yes. At the time what we knew about the Croatian police
9 work, it needed to be more accurate. We didn't know anything about the
10 investigation measures taken, we didn't get any information, and that was
11 we were aiming at [sic].
12 Q. Did you -- we know you sent your letter concerning the bodies
13 that -- that you had discovered through UNCIVPOL or UNCRO records in the
14 letter to Mr. Cetina. I'm going to ask you now about the reporting
15 mechanism that you had to the Croatian police, when you saw crimes, what
16 exactly took place. Doubtless you went into the field with an UNMO,
17 someone from HRAT. Is that right? We've heard earlier evidence.
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And records were made by those people and then brought back to
20 the command in Knin. Is that right?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. We've seen the situation reports that have been exhibited through
23 you. And those are UN records?
24 A. Yes, they are.
25 Q. What records of a crime went to the Croatian police?
1 A. The team leaders or the coordinators in the HQ would contact the
2 Croatian police and discuss the matters reported in the inc-reps.
3 Q. Was a document given to them that established the crime, the
4 arson, the fire, the murder, where it was, and what you knew about it, so
5 that it formed a record?
6 A. I don't remember that clearly. Some of the incidents were
7 translated into Croatian language and delivered in writing.
8 Q. Was an established standing procedure devised and put out to the
9 teams in relation to the reports that would be given to the Croatian
11 A. No. There was not a standard structure for that, only that
12 the -- it was important that the coordinators and the station commanders
13 held up the meetings with their counterpart in the Croatian police.
14 Q. How often would those meetings be?
15 A. I don't remember clearly but very often daily meetings.
16 Q. And when you say "counterparts in the Croatian police," what do
17 you mean by that?
18 A. For example station commanders, CIVPOL station commanders would
19 meet with station commanders in the Croatian police.
20 Q. So a station commander from UNCIVPOL would meet Mr. Mijic?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. And how often would he meet Mr. Mijic?
23 A. As I remember it, he met him daily.
24 Q. And what records would be taken by Mr. Mijic?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. How would the information be given to Mr. Mijic in his own
2 language, in Croatian, if he didn't speak the language of the officer?
3 A. The CIVPOL station commander were always escorted by interpreter.
4 Q. Right. What was the detail that was given to the station
5 commander? How was it expressed?
6 A. The important information was what had happened to who and where
7 and when, if -- if the team or the station commander, CIVPOL commander,
9 Q. Right. Did you take the view, after several weeks, that the
10 system needed improvement and needed to have a -- a paper document
11 provided to the Croatian authority?
12 A. That would have been a good system. I didn't get to -- to
13 arrange that in my time in the mission.
14 Q. Right. Did you envisage there might be a problem in the
15 Croatian's recording or understanding what crime or series of crimes they
16 were being informed about?
17 A. Well actually no, as we had good interpreters who spoke the
18 language which were used in the terms in the inc-reps, so even though we
19 didn't deliver written material in Croatian language I think it must have
20 been possible to take the right notes.
21 Q. The information that had to be given would be of a location where
22 something had happened, the -- the time, details identifying any person.
23 Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you agree that that requires a degree of accuracy, a good
1 degree of accuracy, to help them understand where the crime was?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I want to look at Exhibit D57 now with you, which is the Knin
4 daily log police book. This is a document that was entered in evidence
5 Your Honour. Earlier Your Honour mentioned about the size of a document.
6 We've reflected upon that, but this is obviously a material document in
7 the context of this case, and it bears examination in a number of
8 different ways at different times with different witnesses and what I
9 want to do is -- is just look at the reports within this document by
10 UNCRO officers.
11 MR. KAY: Can we go to page 16. And we go to the item 6495, 14th
12 of August.
13 Q. And this is the first record within the Knin police station book
14 of an UNCRO report of a crime.
15 First of all, did you know anything about this particular report?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. It's on the 14th of August. Were there any reports by UNCRO
18 before the 14th of August to the Knin police station?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Is there any way that we could establish whether there was an
21 earlier report from any system within your administration of these
23 A. I don't remember when the reporting actually started. I couldn't
24 get in closer to any date.
25 Q. Right. This is the first date within this book. We saw the
1 exhibit where the police stations were named in the region. It had Knin,
2 it had Donji Lapac, it had the other stations.
3 Did UNCIVPOL officers report crimes to those police stations?
4 A. I couldn't say for sure, but the structure was made so they
5 should do that.
6 Q. Right. Next matter, page 26 of the book, Exhibit D57. Number 96
7 of 95, 16th of August, UNCRO officer reporting two bodies. Was that a
8 report of which you were aware or had any dealings with?
9 A. I don't remember the incident.
10 Q. Initially was there just an oral reporting of these matters in
11 a -- in a, no doubt, serious way but more inform way to the local
12 Croatian police?
13 A. Yes, I think in the beginning because the CIVPOL had a lack of
14 computers and sometimes the power went off and to get to spread the
15 information, it was given verbally.
16 Q. Yes. If we turn to page 42, this is the third UNCRO report,
17 number 144, 22nd of August, about an anti-tank mine.
18 The matters about which reports were made to the local Knin
19 police covered what kind of crimes or incidents?
20 A. It could be all crimes or incidents who the station commander
21 found important enough to pass on to the Croatian police.
22 MR. KAY: If we go to page 59, the next one on the 26th of
23 August. Number 193. Your Honours will recollect we looked at this with
24 Mr. Flynn, this particular report.
25 Q. This was from a report not by UNCRO but by the police station
1 commander Mr. Mijic and we know that it refers to the bodies found at
2 Grubori, which was a matter of which you were aware of the crime that
3 happened there. Is that right?
4 A. Not in details. I do remember the name of the place, yes.
5 Q. Right. Not the details. But we know from the evidence in this
6 case, actually, that reports were made and somehow information must have
7 come to the local police, because Mr. Mijic is recorded here rather than
8 any UN person in relation to this matter.
9 Are you able to help us further in relation to the reporting of
10 this incident?
11 A. I don't think I am. I don't remember --
12 Q. Right.
13 A. -- in details.
14 Q. Fair enough. It was a matter that arose through another witness
15 and I was seeing if you could help us.
16 MR. KAY: If we go to page 70, number 219, 29th of August,
17 Ljiljana Buvac, UNCRO translator, reported a particular body that was
18 found. This incident that is recorded here, was that something that you
19 were aware of or knew about?
20 A. I remember the first name of the interpreter, but I don't
21 remember this incident.
22 Q. Right. There are in this book another one, two, three, four,
23 five such reports.
24 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I don't want to delay -- go through too
25 long on the same theme of a matter unless the Court would like to see
1 those particular matters that were recorded.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. I was just thinking about the last
3 entry you paid attention to, the report by an UNCRO translator, where
4 earlier it seemed that your questioning was very much focussing on not
5 being able to do any on-site investigation to establish the cause of
6 death. Here I see that a natural cause of death was established as a
7 result of the action taken. So I'm -- again I'm just drawing your
8 attention to -- that is what I read at this moment which of course I have
9 to try to fit into the entirety of the evidence.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KAY: And to assist the Court, because we're going at a pace
12 with a lot of information, the distinction between natural causes of
13 death and death during the conflict was the manner of burial, dealing
14 with the body, one through a system, if you like, and another means --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have seen that earlier that if people died as
16 a natural cause of death that was part of one of the documents that you
17 have shown to this witness.
18 MR. KAY: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The matter which comes to my mind here is not
20 whether it's important to know whether someone died of a natural cause or
21 in any other way, but at least there was a physician here who established
22 what the cause of death was.
23 MR. KAY: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Page 35 in the second part of this book. We're not going
2 backwards. The Court may remember that it was only half uploaded the
3 first time when that issue was raised. The whole document has now been
4 uploaded into the e-court. It's part two of the continuing log.
5 Incident 313, an UNCIVPOL officer reporting finding a particular body on
6 the 8th of September.
7 Q. Was that a matter that you knew about or had any dealings with?
8 A. What was the number of the incident?
9 Q. 313.
10 A. Thank you.
11 Q. Page 35.
12 A. I don't remember that specific incident.
13 Q. No. And there are only three more reports in this book in the
14 currency of its life. And the question I want to ask you is: Why aren't
15 there more UNCRO/UNCIVPOL reports within it? Are you able to help?
16 A. I don't think so. I haven't seen this -- this book before now.
17 I didn't know of its existence.
18 Q. No.
19 A. And I don't know what -- what the idea with the book was from the
20 Croatian police side.
21 Q. Yes. It's a daily log of incidents reported --
22 A. Hmm.
23 Q. -- to them and as we've seen it has got some UNCRO/UNCIVPOL
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. But not really that many.
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. And the question I ask is if you know of any reason why.
4 A. I'm sorry, I don't.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. KAY: That deals with this bit of evidence, Your Honour, and
7 I won't go any further into it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I'm going to change subjects. Was there a
10 question that Court wanted to ask about this document while it is on the
11 monitor and uploaded?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have at least one question.
13 Mr. Kay has drawn your attention to the fact that there is a very
14 limited number of UNCIVPOL or even UNCRO reports of dead people.
15 Mr. Kay, could you please assist me? It was seven or eight in total of
16 all the UN --
17 MR. KAY: I think it's 16.
18 JUDGE ORIE: 16 all together.
19 MR. KAY: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And the time-frame for this log.
21 MR. KAY: From the -- the log itself is from the opening of the
22 police station on the 6th of August until the second part of the book
23 terminated in the 7th of October.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, from what you know about reporting, is it
25 a possibility that in the totality that is UNCRO, UNCIVPOL but also
1 including interpreters that came and reported matters, that only 16 such
2 incidents were reported to the police station in a period of
3 approximately two months?
4 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, there must have been reported a
5 lot more than that. And I think I can elaborate a little bit about that
6 interpreter. She wouldn't have been there alone. She is the name which
7 got into the book. She must have been there with either an UNMO or a
8 CIVPOL officer.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
11 MR. KAY: Thank you.
12 Q. I'm going to turn now to the joint UNCIVPOL and Croatian police
13 agreements to work together, and a document has been exhibited through
14 you with 11 points of -- of agreement between the two forces.
15 We've heard that on one such joint patrol that the Croatian
16 police car was said to have run out of petrol and couldn't continue.
17 Was that something that you were aware of, that -- was that
18 something that came under your scrutiny, if you like?
19 A. Yes, I remember it. There weren't many, if any, joint patrols,
20 and the reason given for that that could not be possible were many, and
21 this could be one of them.
22 Q. Were they that badly resourced, from what you could see, in
23 relation to their vehicles, fuel, the facilities at their disposal?
24 A. I couldn't know, but I don't think so.
25 Q. Right. Were you aware of the fact that the Zadar-Knin police
1 administration actually kept a full and detailed record of the number of
2 bodies, corpses found, whilst clearing the terrain?
3 A. No, I was not aware of that.
4 Q. You sent your letter on the 7th of September asking for
5 information and disclosing those bodies and corpses that your officers
6 had seen in their duty. Is that right?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Yes. Did you know that there was a system whereby Mr. Cetina, at
9 the Zadar-Knin police administration, regularly reported to the Ministry
10 of Interior, civilian defence department, with the details of the bodies
11 found on the terrain?
12 A. No, I didn't know.
13 Q. Those orders that we looked at and those minutes of the meeting
14 that established that bodies had to be found, identified, and then
15 buried, you were not aware of a log that was kept on a regular basis of
16 that information by the Zadar-Knin police station -- police
18 A. No, I was not.
19 Q. Right.
20 MR. KAY: Your Honour, these documents are in that find that
21 that's been put into everyone's hands today. The Bench --
22 JUDGE ORIE: In our hands, yes.
23 MR. KAY: It is in your agent's hand, Mr. Monkhouse.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 MR. KAY: And it is the hands of the Prosecutor and my learned
1 friends I want to save court time and not labour a point, because I know
2 that the witness won't be able to give us any evidence about the matter,
3 but it's relevant to his testimony in relation to him being not given
4 information by the officers that he was dealing with.
5 And, Your Honour, this file that has been prepared comes from the
6 various 65 ter lists that there have been, including the proposed list
7 and I have included what we have found within that into this, because
8 this evidence is in -- out there in the trial and available but needs to
9 be put into a single place, otherwise it is difficult to follow.
10 And Your Honours will see, flicking through it, the tables and
11 the records concerning the deceased people in line with those orders from
12 the Ministry of Interior about the recording of deceased people found.
13 The period this file covers is from the 7th of August until the end of
14 the year.
15 Your Honour will see that there is a number in these charts on
16 the left-hand side. In the middle, next to that, in the second column,
17 is a second number which is a body tag number, and if I may be permitted
18 this, I don't think anyone will object --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that whenever Mr. Kay is saying something
20 that upsets you that you will jump up immediately, Ms. Frolich.
21 MS. FROLICH: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.
22 MR. KAY: I deliberately try not to upset anybody in this
23 courtroom, my lord.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, in England judges are lords, not in this
1 MR. KAY: Have I slipped into -- I'm sorry.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. KAY: And also the status of soldier or civilian, as well as
4 where appropriate, name, the sex, the place, and then the place of
5 burial, all in line with those documents that I took the Court through
6 this afternoon concerning the orders from the Ministry of Defence how to
7 deal with bodies found during the conflict and afterwards.
8 At the end of this file is a report dated the 9th of January,
9 1996, which is a summary of what goes before.
10 May I say I haven't been able to check every document and know
11 that we've got every document, as they have come in a piecemeal form.
12 One stage of disclosures has produced some on the 65 ter and then later
13 ones have fed in doubtless whilst the investigations that have been
14 ongoing have produced further documents, and we have done our best in the
15 system that there is to put together what there is.
16 And what it shows, Your Honour, is the system working in a way as
17 prescribed by the Ministry of Interior as by the Zadar-Knin police
19 JUDGE ORIE: That is argument, Mr. Kay.
20 MR. KAY: Yes. The reason why I'm trying to save court time --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. I am not blaming you for that. We
22 see at least that we find here records, which at first sight, seem to
23 correspond with -- for example, one of the instructions that everybody
24 should be registered. I can't see -- I see 469. Whether there were 469
25 or some were invented or 1500, I don't know, so therefore whether it is a
1 nine or not, but at least it looks at first sight as if this is the type
2 of reporting as ordered in some of the documents we saw before.
3 MR. KAY: And I am trying to save one hour of cross-examination,
4 which I hope finds favour and is a more positive exercise in the interest
5 of the court.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. KAY: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I could ask, is there any -- Ms. Frolich,
9 this seems to be a -- a set of a lot of documents which all deal with
10 clearing the terrain, how the authorities both in the administration and
11 in practice, may have dealt with dead bodies found on the terrain.
12 Is there any objection against admission of this material?
13 MS. FROLICH: No, again, Your Honour, there is no objection
14 against the admission of documents. Again any argument be made about the
15 documents, I would of course not make any remarks at this point.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No. I take it that it needs further analysis. And
17 finally, even if you would have analysed it, I do not think that this
18 witness could help us a great deal in resolving any dispute about what we
19 find in this -- in these documents.
20 MS. FROLICH: I tend to agree with you. I just have an
21 additional point to make. These documents were provided to us during the
22 last break, and I'm not at this point quite certain if we have had time
23 to check if all of these documents were indeed on the Prosecution
24 additional exhibit list but --
25 JUDGE ORIE: You reserve your position in that respect.
1 MS. FROLICH: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And you still have to do a lot of verification.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, it seems that as a matter of principle the
5 Prosecution does not oppose the procedure proposed by you but at the same
6 time they are claiming that they need a bit more time to verify whether
7 they would not object not against the system but against certain
9 So, therefore on the basis of that, I suggest that we not proceed
10 at this moment but take a break, but at least after the break then
11 proceed as suggested by you.
12 MR. KAY: Yes. It may well be that my cross-examination will
13 come to a very early conclusion now.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you say, well, within the next seven
15 minutes, then I would like you to finish now. But if you say it will
16 certainly take us ten minutes or more, then I would like to have the
17 break now.
18 MR. KAY: I would just like to see where I am, thank you very
19 much, Your Honour, in terms of what else I need to deal with or
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you would rather do that during the break.
22 MR. KAY: I would, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Very well. Then we have a break now and resume at
24 five minutes past 6.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, before we proceed, I'd just like to clarify
3 the status at this moment of the Prosecution exhibit list for this
4 witness. We have dealt and we have decided on P225, on P228, P281, P283,
5 and I think also P284, if I remember well.
6 Now, Ms. Frolich, I take it that all the rest where you have not
7 specifically dealt with that on the basis of the questions you've put to
8 the witness, when we still had to decide by the objections raised by
9 Mr. Kehoe about the two series of documents, that on that basis you want
10 to tender the remainder of this list.
11 MS. FROLICH: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not explicitly said yet.
13 That also, means Mr. Kehoe, that that might be relevant for
14 cross-examination. We have denied your objections as -- of a rather
15 general nature. If there is anything very specific for one document or
16 another so that you say this document, we object because the signature we
17 find is quite different from all the other signatures of apparently the
18 same person, then of course, we would like to hear. Otherwise, the
19 Chamber is inclined admit theses in evidence and it is of course with the
20 cross-examination important to know what is in evidence and what is not
21 in evidence.
22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, and I understood that basically
23 that -- those are the parameters. Just to meet some of these documents
24 we will present them across the bar table after consultation with the
25 Office of the Prosecutor some reports concerning these investigations.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If during your cross-examination if there's
2 any challenge to any specific documents, we'll find out, but counsel
3 should, unless they specifically address a specific matter on one of
4 these documents, should work at this moment on the basis that these
5 documents will be admitted into evidence, the remainder on the list.
6 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Mr. Kay, are you --
9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I'm grateful for the break as it gave time
10 to review. I have dealt with all the issues that I could have dealt
11 with, with this witness.
12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Elleby.
13 MR. KAY: Your Honour, it just remains about the admission of the
14 bundle 65 ters which are printed out and Mr. Monkhouse has. They're all
15 Prosecution documents.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, which of course is as such not a reason. If
17 that would be the criteria, Mr. Kay, then I would never ask you again
18 whether there would any objections against --
19 So I take it that I think earlier you want -- as a matter of fact
20 you want to tender them from the bar table.
21 MR. KAY: Absolutely, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And some time will be given to Ms. Frolich to -- I
23 don't know whether you have made up your mind already on these matters.
24 MS. FROLICH: Yes, Your Honour, we just wanted time to check the
25 ERN numbers. In fact these were documents -- we have no objection to
2 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time of course the parties should be
3 aware that if these bundles of documents are admitted in evidence without
4 any questions, not introduced through a witness or -- the Chamber will
5 analyse them and will analyse them with our own critical mind even if
6 that would be on matters which are you not seeking to have this material
7 admitted for. That's, I would say, documents are there, no challenge of
8 their authenticity. That means that the Chamber will consider these
9 documents as contemporaneous documents and that we'll read them,
10 interpret them of course after having heard all the arguments in your
11 later submissions on the matters, but that is the system so to that
12 extent it more or less has become a file --
13 MR. KAY: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- on which the Chamber can rely in whatever the
15 determinations the Chamber will have to make.
16 MR. KAY: That was the purpose of doing it this way. Your
17 Honour, may I also say that because some of these are proposed 65 ters,
18 translations still have to be linked through them and obviously the
19 Prosecution will be doing that, as they're their documents. I wouldn't
20 be translating those documents. It would be obviously be proper for them
21 to do so.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich, may we take it that you take care of --
23 MS. FROLICH: Yes, Your Honour, we are taking care of the
24 translations. I believe that the process is well under way if not -- I
25 couldn't say if it is completed by now but it's certainly being taken
1 care of.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Of course before a final decision will be taken on
3 it, then of course we'll have to check at that moment also whether there
4 are translations.
5 Then, this therefore concludes your --
6 MR. KAY: That concludes matters and we can return to this at an
7 appropriate juncture. Thank you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Who is next?
9 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
10 Mr. Elleby, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic, who
11 is counsel for Mr. Markac.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I just need a lectern, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I thank Mr. Kay for the use of his lectern.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
16 Q. I guess it is now good evening, Mr. Elleby.
17 A. Good evening.
18 Q. Mr. Elleby, I'd like to go over some things that were identified
19 as being in the compilation of documents that were submitted through you
20 by the Prosecution, and the first document I'd like Mr. Registrar to pull
21 up is 65 ter number 2800 which I believe has been marked as P248 in the
23 Just for reference if we could go to the next page of that
24 document, just to make sure I have the same ...
25 Yes, that's it.
1 This is an UNCIVPOL weekly report and the date of the report
2 is -- it appears to be September 4th through September 9th of 1995,
3 roughly a month after Operation Storm began. Is that correct Mr. Elleby.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And would this -- would these documents routinely be done by
6 UNCIVPOL on a weekly basis, summaries, at this time?
7 A. I couldn't say for sure. I remember they came regularly, these
8 situation reports from the HQ in Zagreb.
9 Q. I'd like to please focus on the last third of the document where
10 it begins co-location. If we could zoom on that, please, a little bit
11 more. Thank you.
12 Mr. Kay was discussing the issue relating to the cooperation and
13 work between the Croatian police and the UNCIVPOL and at least as far as
14 this document is concerned about a month after Operation Storm the
15 documents states: "Co-location with the Croatian police, policija cannot
16 be implemented at present because the policija itself has not assumed a
17 well-defined structure in the newly recovered jurisdictions."
18 I'm pausing for the interpreters, Mr. Elleby.
19 "UNCIVPOL is business figuring out the policija organisation
20 being set up, in terms of its various branches and their chain of
21 command. Cooperation with the policija to a satisfactory degree also has
22 to be worked out. The understanding of cooperation reached with UNCIVPOL
23 at the Croatian Ministry of Interior level significantly differs from
24 that at the regional levels and even more from what is actually
25 practiced. Cooperation from Croatian officials as envisioned by the
1 Akashi-Sarinic agreement of 6th August is not forthcoming. Nevertheless,
2 a positive development has been the start of joint UNCIVPOL policija
3 patrolling in the region on a regular basis."
4 Now, Mr. Elleby, that summary, can that essentially define what
5 the situation was at least for you on the ground when you were in Knin at
6 the time?
7 A. Yes. I think it gives a good picture of how it actually was.
8 Q. So there was some functioning but there was a lack of
9 coordination and basically because UNCIVPOL really didn't understand how
10 the police organisation was set up. Is that a fair assessment?
11 A. It is.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'd like to tender P248 unless the
13 Court has any questions.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I believe it is P248. We received a note, Your
16 Honour -- I'm sorry.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I guess before you answer, we
19 received a note that these documents had been marked. I'm not sure if
20 they were marked as MFIs.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think that I said approximately ten minutes ago
22 that counsel should work on the basis of the remainder of the documents.
23 I had not mentioned yet that they would be admitted into evidence, but
24 they are formally not admitted into evidence. I could see where we would
25 change that right away, but just as you do some verification, the Chamber
1 might want to do some verification as well.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No problem, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Before finally deciding, but we are not far away
4 from admission into evidence.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
6 I guess for all purposes it has been identified in the list
7 provided to us as P248 so --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. P248 will then be part of the totality of
9 these documents.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Elleby --
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If the usher could pull up, please, it is P230
14 which is 65, 22130. The usher. I'm sorry, Mr. Registrar.
15 And if we could go to page 2, please. I'd like to zoom -- before
16 we zoom in --
17 Q. Mr. Elleby this is document, another UNCIVPOL headquarters weekly
18 report dated August 21st through the 26th of 1995.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Please zoom toward in the bottom quarter.
20 There's a sentence that begins "almost."
21 Q. Mr. Elleby, SN and SS mean Sectors North and South, correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And I'm reading here: "Almost total freedom of movement in sharp
24 contrast to the conditions that existed during RSK control," and you know
25 RSK means Republika Srpska Krajina, correct, Mr. Elleby?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. All right. "Of the same area has enabled UNCIVPOL supplemented
3 by human rights action teams to perform extensive human rights
5 Now at least as of August 21st through 26th, the week of this
6 report, as far as you know in Sector South as far as you were aware
7 personally UNCIVPOL had almost total freedom of movement. Is that an
8 accurate assessment?
9 A. At that time, yes, that's correct.
10 Q. And then on the second page of that document --
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to page 2, please.
12 Q. Under section B --
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could zoom in on section B, please.
14 Q. There's a discussion of restrictions on freedom of movement. And
15 just for the Court's reference, SE is Sector East, SW is Sector West, but
16 for our purposes SN, Sector North, and SS Sector, South, are what's
18 Sector North describes almost total freedom of movement, and I
19 won't get into the specifics but in Sector South the same general
20 condition as in Sector North, so if there was restrictions of freedom of
21 movement they would have been noted in this part of the report. Correct,
22 Mr. Elleby?
23 A. That's correct.
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, with respect to P230 I guess the
25 same. Moving it into evidence subject to what the ultimate decision will
1 be after agreement on the documents, I guess.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulties with the last answer.
3 The freedom of movement in Sector South apparently was the same
4 general condition as in Sector North.
5 So freedoms of movement are described for Sector North in a
6 rather general way and also referring to certain roads, so it doesn't
7 give that much information on what happened in Sector South because it
8 says exceptional, certain areas, frequent check-points. So it doesn't
9 give --
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I will follow up, Your Honour, with the witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
13 Q. Mr. Elleby, had there been specific restrictions on freedom of
14 movement as far as you're aware, would they have been noted under the
15 report for Sector South under b, restrictions and freedom of movement?
16 A. I think they would have been, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move on, please, to P241. Actually,
18 before we go out of there, I'm sorry, we'll stick with P230, if we could
19 go to page 8. On page 8.
20 And at the top of page eight, there's a paragraph that begins
21 while: "While being critical of the Croatian government, inter alia, the
22 policija's lack of effectiveness in curbing human rights violations, it
23 is at the same time important to appreciate that freedom of movement and
24 field of observation have at least been provided so that UNCIVPOL and
25 other related international agencies can considerably perform human
1 rights monitoring. This capability had been largely denied in the last
2 period of the RSK control of Sector South and Sector North and still is
3 in Sector East."
4 Mr. Elleby, comparing the situation as it was before Operation
5 Storm and after Operation Storm, you would agree with me that as far as
6 your abilities as UNCIVPOL to move around and to monitor and to report,
7 it was a night-and-day situation, correct?
8 A. If you compare to the last two weeks before Operation Storm and
9 after, that is correct.
10 Q. Meaning that I guess just to be clear, when the territory was
11 under the control of the RSK, you had limited or no freedom of movement
12 compared to what you had after Operation Storm?
13 A. Yes. The movement was randomly restricted under the RSK.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could move to P241, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And just trying to understand that whole paragraph.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Are you talking about the latter part of the
18 paragraph, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know, it's --
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I can explain that if the Court would like me
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, seek explanation seems to be appropriate.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
24 Q. Mr. Elleby, the latter part of page eight of that document
25 discusses refugees coming from Bosnia and Vojvodina into Croatia, those
1 were areas under Serb control, were they not? Vojvodina was part of what
2 was then called still Yugoslavia?
3 A. Yes. Vojvodina is now a part of Serbia neighboring Sector East,
4 so to say, on the other side of the river.
5 Q. [Microphone not activated] correct?
6 A. Yes. That's correct.
7 Q. So in essence if you can tell me if you can agree with my
8 conclusion that the contrast this particular report is making between the
9 areas in which presumably these are Serbian controlled areas where human
10 rights monitoring has been completely blocked compared to the situation
11 in Croatia at the time is again a night-and-day situation?
12 A. Yes. But on this matter it would be speculation from my side, so
13 I don't know anything about it.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P241.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I just ask for -- the last sentence of
17 this report is -- no, the semi-last sentence is not specific as far as
18 areas are concerned, which is confusing in view of the preceding
20 It reads: "The uneasy conclusion is that human rights situations
21 in the theatre kept out of our view may be equally, if not more,
22 disturbing that what we are being permitted to observe."
23 And then it adds: "The attached crime statistics should
24 therefore always be read keeping in mind that our monitoring is not
25 uniformly applied throughout the theatre."
1 If I read the previous sentences, that seems to clearly indicate
2 that Sector South is among the better areas. Nevertheless the conclusion
3 which we find under the heading, and that's what we find on page 7,
4 overall assessment and conclusions, the conclusion is not specific for
5 certain areas.
6 I don't know whether you could comment on this reporting and
7 could assist me in now understanding whether that last sentence which
8 does not specify any regions, whether that would be a general conclusion
9 despite what is said before still covering the whole of the theatre or
10 whether I should read that to refer to only those portions of the theatre
11 that are earlier specifically mentioned as being the areas which are bad.
12 If you know, please tell me; if you don't know, please tell me as
14 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour, I don't think I can put any
15 more details into it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, let me try a different question.
18 Q. Would you presume to know, Mr. Elleby, what theatre refers to?
19 Would it the whole country, would it be the whole region?
20 A. As I far I interpret it, it means the whole area of
21 responsibility for the UNCRO.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It means all the sectors as defined and that is --
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- what you are referring to.
25 THE WITNESS: At this time the three sectors.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Can we move on to P241.
3 Actually, I won't move on to P241, Your Honours, sorry.
4 Q. Mr. Elleby, while you were in Knin how often did you have an
5 opportunity to get outside of basically the city limits or the general
6 area of Knin in your work?
7 A. After we got the freedom of movement, I could actually go when I
8 wanted, so to say. But usually I went out once, maybe twice a week.
9 Q. And where would you go when you would leave?
10 A. I would go to Zagreb, to Sibenik, or to Zadar.
11 Q. Okay. Were you ever out in the field doing any investigating or
12 any observing?
13 A. No, I was not.
14 Q. So it's fair to state that as far as you know, you never have
15 witnessed any kind of either mop-up operations or -- either HV or special
16 police operations in the field?
17 A. That's right, I haven't.
18 Q. Would it be fair to state that your statement, P215 --
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we can go to that, please. Page 4. It's the
20 statement dated 10 October 2005. I'm sorry. Which is P216, I'm sorry,
21 2-1-6. If we could focus in on the last two paragraphs.
22 Q. You mention and let me know if you're there, Mr. Elleby.
23 A. I'm here.
24 Q. The first sentence of that paragraph that begins: "I saw the
25 special police in Knin and there were occasions when our teams were
1 restricted by the special police," before we get into the second part of
2 that sentence, when did you see the special police in Knin?
3 A. I don't remember a date or time.
4 Q. Was it in August or September?
5 A. I think it was in August.
6 Q. Do you know -- how did you know that it was the special police?
7 A. Well, they had different uniforms than the normal Croatian
9 Q. And what uniforms were those?
10 A. Well, I remember it a little more military, like what you call it
11 suits or ... dark green, black, instead of the blue that the police were
13 Q. So you remember their uniforms as being dark green and black?
14 A. Yes. Anyway, they were different to look at than normal police.
15 Q. Did they have any specific coloured beret or headgear?
16 A. I think they wore a cap, a soft cap.
17 Q. A soft cap?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. And do you recall the colour?
20 A. Again, I think it was green or dark, dark blue.
21 Q. Okay. And what part of their uniform was black?
22 A. I'm not sure about this. I think the whole uniform was -- was
24 Q. Okay. And that looked to you like it might have black?
25 A. Yeah, it could have been, yeah.
1 Q. You say that your teams were restricted by special police from
2 entering certain areas. Where were your teams restricted and on what
4 A. I don't remember any details about it.
5 Q. Also that sentence discusses special police were cleansing the
6 area ostensibly of Serbian pockets of resistance and clearing mines.
7 From whom did you obtain that information?
8 A. That was information given to me from the monitors who had met
9 the special police. That was an explanation why couldn't go into a
10 certain area.
11 Q. Which monitors are you referring to?
12 A. UNCIVPOL monitors.
13 Q. Do you have any of the names of the UNCIVPOL monitors that may
14 have given this information to you?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. Do you recall any of them?
17 A. A few names I could recall.
18 Q. Could you give me the names?
19 A. There was an Indonesian guy called Rema Shendran [phoen], Petro
20 Romassev, the Knin station commander, went often out into the area.
21 There was a Swedish female, officer, Lila was the first name I don't
22 remember the last name. We had a few Portuguese, some Irish monitors.
23 Q. Would these reports have been given to you in writing or would
24 they have been given to you verbally? How would they have been given to
1 A. The tellings about restriction of movement which have been told.
2 Q. So there is nothing in writing about this as far as --
3 A. I don't think so.
4 Q. Were you aware at all of any -- of these -- so I guess I take it
5 since you haven't been out in the field observing these things, you
6 haven't been able to see what special police operations were all about at
7 that time or what they were for. Correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You state in your next sentence of your statement: "I never
10 heard any of our teams witness nor have I ever witnessed this so-called
11 Serb resistance."
12 That is something that you received verbally from your teams?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The -- it's fair to state that you never witnessed this so-called
15 Serb resistance because you weren't necessarily up in the hills and the
16 woods and the mountains. Correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So if there was any, you wouldn't have known about it?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Are you wear on August 28th, we had a witness who came here and
21 testified earlier this week, that there were several -- nine Serbian ARSK
22 soldier who turned themselves in to be --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, could I try to understand what the
24 last answer of the witness was.
25 You asked him, "It's fair to state that you never witnessed this
1 so-called Serb resistance because you weren't up in the hills, woods or
2 mountains," and then you said "that's correct."
3 Have you considered that an implied suggestion in this question
4 is that Serb resistance did exist in the hills, woods or mountains? Are
5 you aware of whether there was such Serb resistance in the hills, woods
6 or mountains, and at what point in time?
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm not aware of any Serb
9 JUDGE ORIE: At all.
10 THE WITNESS: At all.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Whether in woods or mountains or cities.
12 THE WITNESS: Or cities.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And cities. Mr. Kuzmanovic, composite questions
14 lead to this kind of confusion, and that doesn't assist the Chamber
15 because there is a suggestion in it which is not observed by the witness,
16 and that's not the first time, even not with this witness, that you get
17 answers which may suit you well but which bring us not specifically
18 further to the truth.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
21 Q. Mr. Elleby, is your lack of awareness because of information
22 people told you or was that just what you assume based on what you saw in
23 and around Knin?
24 A. Well, I don't think I understand the question.
25 Q. Sure. You have told us that you weren't aware in your statement
1 or you have -- "nor have I ever witnessed this so-called Serb
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. You follow me?
5 A. I didn't see or hear anything myself, and no such incidents were
6 reported to me.
7 Q. Okay. By UNCIVPOL?
8 A. By the UNCIVPOL monitors.
9 Q. Do you know whether any such incidents were reported to you -- I
10 will re-ask the question.
11 Would the UNMOs report to you about any of these incidents?
12 A. No, the UNMOs would not report to me, but it would be an issue on
13 the morning meetings with the military in the sector.
14 Q. Were you aware that on August 28th which with discussed with a
15 previous witness that nine ARSK soldiers essentially turned themselves in
16 to the special police who, in turn, brought them to the police in Knin,
17 these ARSK soldiers having been in the woods and hills of Sector South?
18 A. No, I don't know this incident.
19 Q. Is it fair to state that as far as you're aware -- strike that.
20 The -- what were the badges or the emblems on the uniforms that
21 you saw that you said were -- when you saw the special police. Do you
23 A. I think there was some sort of lightening on the badge of the
24 special police.
25 Q. Where would that be, on the chest on the shoulder?
1 A. As I remember it, on the shoulder.
2 Q. Now, the next paragraph of your statement you talk about reported
3 to you by teams of areas which were closed off on the basis of Croatian
4 special police conducting clean-up operations were destroyed.
5 Can you tell me, on what dates or what places these reports came
6 to you?
7 A. No, I don't have that details.
8 Q. Okay. And, again, is any -- you had mentioned before that the
9 discussion of witnessing this resistance or not witnessing this Serb
10 resistance was not in writing anywhere. Would any of this information in
11 the last paragraph about the Croatian special police have been provided
12 in writing anywhere?
13 A. It could have been, but I don't remember seeing it.
14 Q. Okay.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, the closed-off areas are not in
16 relation to a certain period of time. Could we ask the witness from when
17 to when this happened that teams reported to you that areas were closed
18 off on the basis of Croatian special police conducting clean-up
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. As I remember it, it was
21 basically the first two, maybe three weeks after Operation Storm.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
23 Q. So it is your recollection that, just to make it clear, that this
24 portion of your last paragraph of page 4 of your statement that areas
25 were closed off on the basis of Croatian special police conducting
1 clean-up operations was two -- in the weeks immediately after Operation
2 Storm, two to three weeks, did you say?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you -- do you have a definition for us about what you think
5 clean-up or mop-up operations are, Mr. Elleby?
6 A. I understood it that there could be RSK troops in the area.
7 Q. And do you know what kind of actions would be undertaken during
8 these clean-up or mop-up operations?
9 A. No, I don't know.
10 Q. So your understanding of what a clean-up or mop-up operation is
11 is that there were RSK soldiers in the area and beyond that you have no
12 idea of what the elements of that mop-up operation would be?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Did you ever meet any members of the special police?
15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. How often did you have joint meetings with members of either the
17 UNMOs, the -- strike that.
18 Did you have joint meetings at any time with any UNMOs?
19 A. Yes. We had a meeting every morning where every branch in the UN
20 were gathered with the general, UN general. And then we had talks before
21 shipping out the Human Rights Watch teams.
22 Q. And generally what was discussed in those meetings?
23 A. The general situation what did it look like, where should we go,
24 what was reported the day before. We only have -- had limited
25 resources, so I think only two or three teams went out every day.
1 Q. And two or three teams would be comprised of how many people?
2 A. Three plus an interpreter.
3 Q. Three UNCIVPOL members plus an interpreter would be a team?
4 A. No. I'm sorry. One UNCIVPOL member, an UNMO, UNHCR and then an
6 Q. So you'd have three vehicles to cover all of Sector South?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And would those vehicles go out in the morning and then come back
9 at 4.00 or 5.00 in the evening?
10 A. They went out in the morning but they were back very late. As it
11 got darker and darker as the time went on, we had to make the patrols
12 shorter. Because of security I wanted them to be back in daylight.
13 Q. Had you ever gone out on any of these patrols?
14 A. No, I haven't.
15 Q. The -- sorry.
16 As far as UNCIVPOL reporting, can you tell me, Mr. Elleby, was it
17 the practice of UNCIVPOL members when they came upon a crime to remove --
18 for example if there was a dead body to remove the body or to photograph
19 the body. Give us an estimation of what you would do when you came upon
20 a crime that you observed? And by you, I mean UNCIVPOL.
21 A. No. UNCIVPOL members would only observe and take notes. We were
22 not supposed to touch bodies and we were not allowed to take any pictures
23 and we didn't.
24 Q. Why weren't you allowed to take any pictures?
25 A. It was not allowed from the Croatian police. We wanted that
1 permission but we never got it.
2 Q. There were, pictures however, taken that we have received
3 throughout the course of this trial so far of various sightings, were
4 there not, where people were killed; do you know?
5 A. No, I don't know.
6 Q. But essentially it was the practice of UNCIVPOL not to do
7 anything to the crime scene but to leave it the way it is?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were those instructions reported to people who were at the scene,
10 moaning any civilians that might be there or anyone else that might be in
11 the area to leave the scene as it is and not to disturb a potential crime
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Was that a policy of UNCIVPOLs to tell people don't touch the
15 crime scene, leave it as it is, wait until the investigating people get
17 A. That's general way of thinking when you're a police officer, but
18 it was never written down.
19 Q. Was the practice as you mentioned not to disturb the crime scene,
20 was that somewhere in any written form that UNCIVPOL had?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Were there any written guidelines that UNCIVPOL had as to dealing
23 with crime scenes in general?
24 A. There was from HQ in Zagreb a standard operation procedures, I
25 remember that in detail. It could very well have been included here.
1 Q. Is that something that -- obviously you said you haven't seen
2 that in who knows how long. You thought it did exist?
3 A. It did exist and several page there is was also something we
4 called code of conduct, and these two -- these two compilation could very
5 well have included what you're asking here, but I don't remember.
6 Q. Would you have -- what were the procedures then be when you came
7 across a crime scene, for example, where someone had been killed, what
8 would the next step that UNCIVPOL -- what was the next step that UNCIVPOL
9 would take?
10 A. It would be to report it to the Croatian police.
11 Q. And depending upon where you were, would you always report it to
13 A. No. If it was CIVPOL patrol, from Gracac, for example they would
14 go to that station.
15 Q. So it would depend on where the CIVPOL patrol came from?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then that CIVPOL patrol would report to, as you said, in
18 Gracac or Knin or whatever other town had a police station?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Now, I'd like to go to P238, please. P238 is dated August 26th
21 1995. There's a question that I wanted to ask you about this follow-up
22 report, Mr. Elleby.
23 It says: "On 26.8.1995 Knin CIVPOL informed Croatian policija
24 of --" I think that must be arson, it's blocked out there -- "and murder
25 cases committed by Croatian special forces in hamlet Grubori of Plavno
2 Now, this is the day after the occurrence of this incident and
3 yet there's a conclusion made that the Croatian police forces in this
4 hamlet have committed this crime.
5 Can you explain that, please?
6 MS. FROLICH: I'm sorry, again, I'm not sure we are looking at
7 the right document.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: It could be the -- well, mine is 238, 65 ter
9 1320. If that is not P238, I apologise. According to my document that I
10 received from the registrar, 1320 is P238.
11 Do you have it, Ms. Frolich?
12 MS. FROLICH: 1320 is the P238, but -- and that is the ERN number
13 that is being shown on screen, but unless I'm very much mistaken, but the
14 document being shown on screen is not the document that you are talking
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Okay. That's -- let me give you the ERN number.
17 This is how it came to me in the dossier, so it's R090-3292, it appears.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And the one on the screen is 3275.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could pull up 3292. It's P237, I have
20 been informed.
21 Q. Do you see it, Mr. Elleby?
22 A. Yes, I see it.
23 Q. I don't know if you've forgotten my question, but ...
24 Do you recall my question?
25 A. Yes, I do, and I cannot explain why Mr. Romassev wrote this
1 about -- that it should be committed by Croatian special forces.
2 Q. It seems to be, at least as of the date of this document,
3 somewhat of a rush to judgement, don't you think?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It also notes that later in this document that HRS
6 representatives of Croatian military command attended the scene, promised
7 to take necessary action, help bury the dead bodies and sanitize the
9 HRS, do you know what that stands for?
10 A. No, I don't know.
11 Q. The Knin CIVPOL appears to have reported this on the first line
12 to the Croatian police. Do you know which station that would have been
13 reported to?
14 A. Typically that would have been report to the Knin police station.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you give me one second, Mr. Kuzmanovic, to
16 read the document.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Certainly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.
19 Mr. Kuzmanovic, I'm looking at the clock, we have to finish for
20 the day.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Just a moment, Your Honour, I'll tell you if I'm
22 done or not.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm done. So I just wanted to
1 check with co-counsel and make sure that we didn't have to start with me
2 again tomorrow.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, would have been a pleasure to listen to you
4 tomorrow morning as well, Mr. Kuzmanovic, so don't be too shy in that
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's good to know, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that is valid for all Defence counsel.
8 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, and if
9 Mr. Registrar, could help us out as -- in which courtroom. In this same
10 courtroom, number I.
11 Mr. Elleby, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00.
12 You will then be cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe, who is counsel for
13 Mr. Gotovina. I'd like to instruct you again that you should not speak
14 with anyone about your testimony, testimony already given or testimony
15 still to be given.
16 We stand adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of May,
19 2008, at 9.00 a.m.