Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3753

 1                           Wednesday, 28 May 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  The late start is due to

11     some technical problems with the transcribing machinery.  I hope,

12     Mr. Russo, that it is not the machinery who suffers also from your speed

13     of speech.

14             Mr. Hill, could I remind that you are still bound by the solemn

15     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Russo, are you ready to continue your

18     examination-in-chief.

19             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

20                           WITNESS:  JOHN GEOFFREY WILLIAM HILL [Resumed]

21                           Examination by Mr. Russo: [Continued]

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hill.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Yesterday, we competed for speed.  Today, we will compete for

25     clarity.

Page 3754

 1             So, let's move to next day.  We were talking, yesterday, about

 2     the 5th of August, and we're going to move now to the 6th, and I'd like

 3     to refer you to your second statement.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  And for the benefit of the court officer and the

 5     Chamber, Your Honour, all of the references I will be making for the rest

 6     of the examination relate only to the second statement, and that is P292.

 7        Q.   So, Mr. Hill, if you could turn to 0057-7658.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  That is e-court page 21, at line 8; and the B/C/S

 9     translation is page 15, line 1.

10        Q.   Mr. Hill, in this part of your statement, you describe meeting a

11     SIS officer who appeared at the UN compound gate with a woman.  I would

12     like to you describe for the Court what occurred there?

13        A.   At approximately 0600 on that morning, I was at the front gate

14     checking on the intake ever refugees.  A Croatian soldier came to the

15     gate with a woman who I believe to be Serbian.  She was asking for

16     protection from the UN from the Croats.  He wanted me to go downtown with

17     him and her, and he stated he wanted to show that the Croats had not

18     killed all the Serbs.  So I asked if he would take us.

19             We went down with him, myself, the woman, and my corporal.  We

20     went to her house.  We discussed the issue.  She could either come into

21     the camp where she would be safe, or I could not provide security for her

22     at her house.  After we left with her, the SIS soldier agreed to give us

23     a tour of the town in his vehicle, and I believe the first stop was

24     General Forand's house.  He was our sector commander downtown.  At that

25     point, on the lawn, I saw two rocket bodies; the first time I had seen

Page 3755

 1     them.  We checked the house.  There some looting.  From there, we

 2     proceeded, I believe, to the hospital.

 3        Q.   Let me stop you.  I'd like to discuss what you found at General

 4     Forand's house.

 5             You indicated that you found two rocket bodies.  I'd like you to

 6     describe for the Court, or tell the Court, if you can, whether or not

 7     these appear to have been rockets which were fired.

 8        A.   I believe so.  Approximately four inches in diameter, silver,

 9     over a metre in length, deployable fins on the rear, four of them.  One

10     was bent at an angle.  They were both on the grass, and they appeared to

11     be the bodies, not the warhead, of the rockets.

12             MR. RUSSO:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could please have

13     Exhibit D87.

14        Q.   Mr. Hill, looking at the longer projectile in the top picture,

15     can you tell the Court how that compares to the rocket body that you

16     found at General Forand's house?

17        A.   This one appears to be wider across, longer, and a different

18     colour.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. RUSSO:  If we could now, Mr. Registrar, please pull up

21     Exhibit D83.

22        Q.   Mr. Hill, looking at the projectile piece being held by the

23     gentleman in the blue helmet, can you describe for the Court how that

24     compares to the rocket that you found at General Forand's house?

25        A.   Same colour.  This rocket is wider around in circumference, and

Page 3756

 1     the ones I found were not shredded in that manner.

 2        Q.   And for the benefit of the Court, do you know who's in this

 3     photograph?

 4        A.   On the left-hand side, Warrant Officer Dellaire, Canadian MP; He

 5     worked for me.  And on the right is a Czech captain or major pilot, who

 6     worked in the Sector South headquarters.

 7        Q.   Now going back to your trip through Knin with the SIS officer,

 8     can you describe for the Court what you witnessed of the behaviour of the

 9     soldiers in Knin.

10        A.   They were shooting into the air, they were looting across the

11     town.  We spent approximately two hours driving around the town.  There

12     was various check-points run by the HV, at that point not military

13     police, which we freely got through with the identification of the SIS.

14             The soldier were shooting in the air.  At one point, we stopped

15     at a bar.  They kicked out front.  They had cut a pig in half, were

16     eating the pig, offered us some whiskey.  Virtually, every area of town

17     you went to, the soldiers were coming out the of the homes with

18     appliances, TVs, radios, clothes, and putting them into vehicles, that

19     they were steeling from the town of Knin.

20             There was buildings that were burning, there were buildings that

21     were either damaged or destroyed from artillery fire.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 4911.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  When waiting for that, Mr. Russo, I would like to

25     seek one point, some further clarification.

Page 3757

 1             You said virtually every where you went, the soldiers were coming

 2     out of the homes with appliances.

 3             What did you see that happen?  Ten times during your trip, 50

 4     times, or was that in a street you would see 20 coming out from different

 5     houses and the same picture, the next?  I tried to get an image from what

 6     you are describing.

 7             THE WITNESS:  It wasn't concentrated on one area.  On any given

 8     area of the town you went to, behind the hospital, behind the parliament,

 9     below the castle, you would see cars being stolen and soldiers coming out

10     of houses or apartments with material they were loading the cars with.

11     Any part of town you went to, you saw this.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  As you describe it, it sounds as a massive exercise.

13             THE WITNESS:  Perhaps, on one area, when we went to a lady's

14     house where he put the sign on, perhaps I only saw three in that area of

15     three or four street, three soldiers.  It is more pronounced downtown.

16     There is a bigger concentration of soldiers, but also they were drinking

17     and shooting, as well as looting.

18             When you got outside of downtown, it was purely the looting.

19     They weren't sitting around and drinking.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And no doubt as to these being HV soldiers.

21             THE WITNESS:  Oh, no doubt at all.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Fully uniformed.

23             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.  With weapons.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Russo.

Page 3758

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Hill, looking at the photograph in the picture, do your

 3     recognise -- sorry, looking at that photograph, do you recognise that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.  That's a house that had been hit by artillery in

 5     Knin.  I took three pictures for my own personal use, what it looked like

 6     when artillery hit the ground.  So I had a picture of a road.  When it

 7     hits the top of a house, when it hits the side of a house that.  That

 8     picture was taken in Knin to give an example of what a house looks like

 9     when artillery hits it.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, if we could have this admitted.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

13             Then, Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P299, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P299 is admitted into evidence.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   If we could now move to page 7661, Mr. Hill, in your statement.

19             MR. RUSSO:  And for the benefit of the Court, that is page 24,

20     starting at line 23; and the B/C/S translation is at page 17, line 16.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Hill, at this particular point in your statement, and I

22     believe you just alluded to it in your explanation to His Honour Judge

23     Orie, you mentioned that the SIS officer placed a sign on a house that

24     you went to.  Can you please explain what that was about?

25        A.   For some reason, we came in contact with the lady, and I remember

Page 3759

 1     she had two puppies.  It was at her house.  It had two apartments

 2     upstairs; a very large, nice house.  They had talked.  She was concerned

 3     about the looting.  The SIS man took a piece of paper, wrote something on

 4     it, and put is it on the door, right-hand side, which was that apartment.

 5     And I asked what he was doing, and he said when they put the signs on the

 6     door, the soldiers won't go in.  And, as I see in my statement here,

 7     there was, right beside, an individual soldier was steeling a car, and

 8     the SIS told him to leave the neighbourhood.

 9             I later saw those signs throughout the town.

10        Q.   And when you saw those signs, did it appear that those houses

11     were being respected from looting?

12        A.   Of the ones that I saw with signs, absolutely.

13             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have aerial

14     photograph 65 ter 5169.

15             Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Hill, I'd like you to take the Court through the markings on

17     this aerial photograph, from right to left, if you could describe them by

18     the letter which you have assigned to each?

19        A.   "A" is the area of town where the Serb woman asked us to go to

20     her house.  "B" is what I understand as the parliament or the

21     headquarters.  When we went by there, they were loading a very large

22     ten-ton truck with documents.  And on the right, there was severe

23     burning.  Then "C" is part of the supply.  There is four buildings that

24     later became the garrison of the HV military police for the town.  "D" is

25     the area of the town where General Forand's house was, and "E" behind the

Page 3760

 1     hospital is the area of town where the SIS put the sign on the door of

 2     that lady in her home.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  If we could 65 ter 5169 admitted.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P300, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P300 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Mr. Hill, if we could now move to page 7664 in your statement,

11     starting at line 13.

12             MR. RUSSO:  That is at page 27 in e-court; and the B/C/S

13     translation appears at page 19, line 4.

14        Q.   Now, in this portion of your statement, Mr. Hill, you discuss

15     meeting a military police commander by the name of Ivan Juric.  I'd like

16     you to explain to the Court how you met him and who he was.

17        A.   Mr. Akashi, who was the UN representative to Croatia, was to fly

18     into Knin, I believe, that day.  I was tasked to go downtown and liaise

19     with the HV to facilitate that visit.  I went down to what I believe was

20     the headquarters to try to find somebody; and, eventually, an individual

21     named Major Ivan Juric -- he walked by us several times actually, but

22     then identified himself as the MP commander.

23             We went into a conference room, I believe, on the second floor

24     there of that building, talked with him.  There were several others

25     around the conference room table at the back.  There was one individual

Page 3761

 1     who, I believe, to be an operations officer, a colonel -- a

 2     lieutenant-colonel or above.  We did the pleasantries.  We exchanged

 3     badges, guns, cigarettes.  Then we came about a plan to bring Akashi into

 4     the air field, the soccer field, that day using HV assets, as well as my

 5     own.

 6        Q.   Did Mr. Juric have any issues regarding media coverage of this

 7     event?

 8        A.   Absolutely.  It was one of the sticking points.  My commander was

 9     asking for press, and Ivan was saying, absolutely, there would be no

10     press.

11        Q.   And you indicated, I believe, that he was an officer.  Do you

12     know what his rank was?

13        A.   He was wearing major when I was dealing with him.

14        Q.   And did you believe that he had, in fact, more authority than a

15     major, or did you believe that that was his true rank?

16        A.   It may have been his true rank, but he certainly had authority

17     way above that rank in his dealings that I saw with HV.

18        Q.   Can you please explain to the Court why it is that you say that?

19        A.   The first case was sitting at the meeting.  I'm across the table

20     dealing with him.  And the colonel was sitting at the end of the table,

21     and the colonel was saying nothing.  He's nodding at the colonel as if he

22     is giving him direction, yet it is the colonel's troops.  There is a

23     colonel there, but the major is doing this.

24             That is not how I understand how we work in NATO militaries.  It

25     was -- he was clearly in charge, regardless of his rank.  Any time I got

Page 3762

 1     into trouble when I was caught out in the areas or out in the outside of

 2     Knin, any time I used his name, I was let through instantly, whether I

 3     was violating a policy or not.  If you mention Ivan Juric, we got

 4     through.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, before we move on to the 8th of August, I'd like

 6     to show you a report which you released, which summarizes the activities

 7     of the military police from the 4th to 7th August 1995.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull up 65

 9     ter 5168.

10        Q.   Mr. Hill, do you recognise this report?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   And was the report released by you as it indicates.

13        A.   Yes, it was.

14        Q.   And does that report -- first of all, did you have a chance to

15     review that before coming to court today?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And does it accurately reflect the events between the 4th and 7th

18     of August?

19        A.   It does.

20             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, I would like to have 5168 admitted.

21             MR. KEHOE:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P301, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P301 is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 3763

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Moving now to the 8th of August, Mr. Hill, if you could refer to

 3     page 7667 at line 12.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  This is in e-court, page 30; and the B/C/S appears at

 5     page 21, line 2.

 6        Q.   And in this portion, Mr. Hill, you discuss a trip you took on the

 7     8th of August along the Knin-Drnis road, and I would like you to explain

 8     to the Court what it is that you witnessed there?

 9        A.   From our camp, there's a road that goes straight into Drnis.  We

10     took that road that day because we were denied access to the town of

11     Knin.  Along the road, we saw wide-spread looting by civilians, using

12     civilian vehicles and trailers, as well as HV CIVPOL.  They were either

13     conducting traffic to get traffic around those that were looting, or they

14     were actually looting themselves.  As well, we saw houses that were on

15     fire and damaged all along the route from Knin to Drnis.

16        Q.   When you say "HV CIVPOL," are these civilian police officers, or

17     are these Special Police officers or military police officers?  Which one

18     do you recall?

19        A.   I recall civilian light blue shirt and, I believe, grey pants.

20        Q.   And can you give the Court an idea of the scale on which this

21     occurred.  Was it impossible for someone to drive down that road and not

22     know what was happening?

23        A.   Absolutely not.  I recall, at one point, a CIVPOL bringing a

24     horse out of somebody's barn and putting it onto a trailer of a police

25     car.  Lots of plates from the coast of vehicles with trailers that were

Page 3764

 1     stopped and were going into homes and filling the trailers.  And like I

 2     said, on at least two occasions, the civilian police were directing

 3     traffic around these ones that are parked, pulling things out of the

 4     homes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And on this trip down towards Drnis, how far down did

 6     you get on that day?

 7        A.   Past the check-point at Drnis, and we were referring to it as

 8     Pakovo Selo.  If you continue along past Drnis, there's the zone of

 9     separation where you have the Serb check-point, Kenyan check-point,

10     Kenyan check-point, HV.  We went down as far as the HV one, obviously,

11     they weren't there, and then came back through the two Kenyan

12     check-points and the Serb check-point.

13             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 4902

14     brought up.

15        Q.   Mr. Hill, do you recognise that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Can you please explain to the Court what it is.

18        A.   In between the two check-points of the Kenyans down in

19     Pakovo Selo, on the north side of the road, that is one of their team

20     houses for the Kenyans.  That is the damage that was incurred [sic] by

21     the HV as they went through on, I believe, the 4th of August.

22        Q.   You said this was damage which was incurred by the HV.  Can you

23     explain what you mean about that?

24        A.   That was my error.  Caused by the HV.

25        Q.   Can you explain to the Court why you think this was caused by the

Page 3765

 1     HV.

 2        A.   I had found two Kenyan soldiers that were in this area by

 3     themselves.  They then described to me that there was another team house

 4     south of there that had eight Kenyans in it.  They explained they were at

 5     this location when the HV came through, and they evacuated from this

 6     house to another.  When I got to the other house, the section commander,

 7     a Kenyan sergeant, was there.  He took me around the house and showed me

 8     four mortar impacts.  When they had come beside the house, he said an

 9     HV -- a couple of sections had attacked the house, mortared it.

10             He showed me a brand new military radio approximately this large,

11     24 inches, with a bullet-hole through it.  He said the HV had shot the

12     radio, taken all weapons, and told them not to leave the house or they

13     would be shot.  Then he said that the damage at this team house, which I

14     had taken a picture of, was done by HV as they came through on their way

15     to Knin.

16             I later took, at this point, eight of them now in my vehicle,

17     with the three of us, through the check-point at Drnis, and took them

18     back to the because in Knin.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, if we could 4902 admitted.

21             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Judge.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P302.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P302 is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 3766

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Hill, staying with the 8th of August, I'd like you to refer

 3     to page 7675 at line 15.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  This is e-court page 38; and the B/C/S translation

 5     appears at page 26, line 20.

 6        Q.   And, here, Mr. Hill, you discuss an incident with a United

 7     Nations Serbian interpreter which occurred in downtown Knin on that day,

 8     and I would like you to explain to the Court what happened there.

 9        A.   At approximately 1930, I was advised there was an issue with the

10     UN worker downtown.  I took several of my police with me.  I went down to

11     the police station, and found a lieutenant HV, who came with me.  At a

12     certain point of town, in an open courtyard in between two apartment

13     buildings, there was approximately 30 military individuals standing

14     around.

15             At that point, they were agitated because of our weapons.  I had

16     to give up my long arm and my pistol to my second in command, and then I

17     went to talk to who I believe was in charge, who I thought was the

18     commander of 4 Brigade.  There was an UN pick-up truck with the right

19     front tire shot out, and it was flat.  The back of the truck was filled

20     with personal belongings, and there was an UN employee, a Serbian

21     interpreter, standing there.

22             When I approached the individual, there was an HV civilian police

23     there, Jan, who spoke very good English, and he acted as our interpreter.

24     I asked about the situation.  I asked about the situation.  The commander

25     showed me a piece of paper that was in, I believe, Croatian, that showed

Page 3767

 1     that this individual had served in the ARSK army for, I believe, nine or

 2     ten months.

 3             Through the interpreter, he said he was a Chetnik and they were

 4     going to kill him.  All I understood from the commander was the word

 5     "Chetnik," and I understood what it meant.  Apparently, this individual

 6     left our camp, gone to his own accommodation, and was retrieving personal

 7     items.  We negotiated back and forth that he could not shoot the

 8     individual, it was not his responsibility, the individual belonged to me.

 9             And, eventually, he agreed that the individual would go with me;

10     however, he said that he could not guarantee the safety of the individual

11     if his soldiers saw him, or my safety which was the first time they said

12     that.  He said that any helicopters leaving our camp with Serbs would be

13     shot down, and any Serb men of military age, 19 to 60, who leave our camp

14     would be shot.

15             At this point, we took the individual, we surrounded him, moved

16     him back to our two vehicles, and drove him back to our camp.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. RUSSO:  If we could now move to the 9th of August, and refer

19     to page 7689, starting at line 11.

20             In e-court, this is page 52; and in B/C/S, page 35, line 43.

21        Q.   And at this point in your statement, Mr. Hill, you discuss a trip

22     that you took through the town of Kistanje, and I would like to describe

23     for the Court what you witnessed in that town?

24        A.   That was the worse town I had seen for damage.  There was no

25     inhabitants at all.  I believe there was an HV company there on the

Page 3768

 1     factory side.  The majority of the homes destroyed by either artillery or

 2     fire.  They had artillery impacts on the outside of the town for the

 3     first time, where we saw how they had walked the artillery into the town.

 4             There was a massive war memorial, beautiful.  It was huge made

 5     of it appeared to be granite, that had been virtually destroyed, not by

 6     artillery but it appeared as if by sledge hammers.  In Canada, we would

 7     call it - I can't remember - vandalism, but it was destroyed, completely

 8     destroy.  It was a massive monument.  There was an extremely strong smell

 9     of dead bodies, but yet we found none.  There was that single company of

10     HV soldiers who were resting by the factory area.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please pause between questions and

12     answers, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, you're invited, and you as well,

14     Mr. Hill, to make a pause between question and answer, and answer and

15     question.

16             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Mr. Hill, were there any homes or buildings burning in the town

18     while you were there?

19        A.   Yes, there were.

20        Q.   You've mentioned a single company of HV soldiers.  Approximately

21     how close were they to this destruction, and did it appear that they knew

22     what was going on in the town?

23        A.   Within the town, there's one area that is some small factories by

24     the main road, and they were sitting to the side of that, all in a line;

25     and, basically, they would have had an entire view of the small town, the

Page 3769

 1     smoke, the fire.  They were the only inhabitants of that town at that

 2     time.

 3        Q.   And did you run into Mr. Ivan Juric on that day?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.  After we left the town and we were going north, we

 5     met him on the road crossing.  He asked what I was doing, I asked what he

 6     was doing.  He then agreed to let me follow him to a couple locations, I

 7     don't recall where we went; and then, eventually, we made it back to

 8     Kistanje, where we went into a location where there was approximately 12

 9     military police.  They were -- had killed a goat and were cooking the

10     goat, and he invited to us eat.

11             At that location is where I saw him have an argument with what I

12     thought or believed was an HV major, who the day before had wanted to

13     stop me from getting in through Drnis with the Kenyans, but I had used

14     Mr. Juric's name.  They had a heated discussion; and at the end it, it

15     was clear that Major Juric was imparting on him his direction.  The major

16     did not like it, he wouldn't look at me, and then he left.

17             After we finished eating the goat, I went on my way to the Kenyan

18     headquarters, and Ivan went somewhere else in the zone.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And the Kenyan headquarters that you went to, do you

20     know what town that was near or outside of?

21        A.   Benkovac, I believe.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             If we could now move to page 7692, starting at the stop of that

24     page.

25             MR. RUSSO:  This is in e-court at page 55; and the B/C/S

Page 3770

 1     translation appears at page 37, line 35.

 2        Q.   Mr. Hill, here, you describe two bodies which you had found near

 3     stains on a road, and I'd like you to please explain for the Court what

 4     you know about that.

 5        A.   On the hill as you leave Knin, there was a red trailer we had

 6     seen for several days.  I don't understand or recall how we got to this

 7     point.  But when we got to the trailer, there was an extremely strong

 8     smell of bodies.  We looked over -- there is a stone fence.  And down the

 9     embankment, we found the two bodies.  They had both been shot in the

10     head.

11             But what it realise to us is that there was a stain on the

12     pavement.  I understand blood-stains from policing before, but it was

13     different there because of the temperature and the type of pavement.  But

14     we realised that that was blood.  So then we also realised the

15     individuals were shot in head, dragged, and thrown over.  But what we

16     realised is that these are stains had seen throughout the sector, beside

17     cars that had been run over with tanks, beside the trailer with all the

18     personal belongings.  But we didn't understand what it was or comprehend.

19     At this point, we realised all of those stands that we had seen were

20     blood.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull of 65

23     ter 4904.

24        Q.   Mr. Hill, is that one of the bodies you found on that day?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 3771

 1             MR. RUSSO:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could then pull up 4905.

 2        Q.   Mr. Hill, is that the other body that you found?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4             MR. RUSSO:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could now have 4903.

 5        Q.   Mr. Hill, is that the blood-stain to which you were just

 6     referring?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, if I could have 4904, 4905, and 4903

 9     admitted.

10             JUDGE ORIE Yes.  Under one number?

11             MR. RUSSO:  Whatever the Court likes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

13             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Judge.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, since these pictures are very much

15     related, they will be admitted under one number.

16             Mr. Registrar, that would be?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P303.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P303, a series of three photos, is admitted into

19     evidence.

20             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Mr. Hill, let's move now to the 10th of August, and please refer

22     to page 7698, starting at line 15.

23             MR. RUSSO:  This is page 61 in e-court; and the B/C/S translation

24     appears at page 42, line 1.

25        Q.   Mr. Hill, here, you discuss what you saw in the town of Gracac,

Page 3772

 1     and I would like to you tell the Court, please, what you witnessed there.

 2        A.   We saw artillery impacts in the fields leading up to the town.

 3     There was no MP, so there was HV.  I remember one check-point with HV

 4     soldiers by the impacts.  The town was fairly well destroyed.  Some

 5     houses were still burning.  There was looting, and there were still some

 6     soldiers there.  As it says in my statement, they were friendly.  Again,

 7     large very strong smell of bodies.  We drove everywhere with our windows

 8     open, so we could identify that.  Then we continued to the Czech

 9     battalion.

10        Q.   Can you tell the Court who was doing the looting?

11        A.   HV soldiers.

12        Q.   And did you see any civilians in this town at that time?

13        A.   No.  The town was empty.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move now to page 7699.

15             MR. RUSSO:  That's the following page, page 62, in e-court, at

16     line 29; and the B/C/S is at page 42, line 45.

17        Q.   Mr. Hill, this is where you describe an incident at a town, which

18     in the statement appears as "Pecade," but I believe earlier you corrected

19     it to indicate that it was "Pecane."  I'd like to you tell the Court what

20     you saw happening there?

21        A.   There was a town, a small town up to the right, that was burning

22     or was being burnt.  There was an awful lot of police there, Special

23     Police and HV civilian police.  They had a couple of the Special Police

24     vehicles, large armoured.  I believe they're Cadillac Gage 100, four

25     wheels, 30-millimetre cannon; but the cannons were pointed into the town,

Page 3773

 1     not out.  And we could see people coming out of homes, homes burning, and

 2     we could not get near or into that town as we went by.

 3        Q.   The people that you saw coming out of the homes, were these

 4     civilians or were these the Special Police or who else?

 5        A.   The -- from what I recall, the Special Police appeared to be on

 6     the perimeter, and the civilian police were the ones coming out of the

 7     homes, going into the homes, and the homes being on fire.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull up 65

 9     ter 4901.

10        Q.   And just by way of example, Mr. Hill, can you please explain who

11     the individuals are in this photograph.

12        A.   On your immediate left is what HV military police look like; then

13     there is obviously us, the next two; and then the two on the right, that

14     is HV CIVPOL.

15        Q.   And when you refer to HV civilian police, are these the uniforms

16     to which you're referring?

17        A.   Yes.  Light blue with grey pants.

18        Q.   And the individuals you saw in the town of Pecane, were they both

19     individuals wearing these uniforms as well as others?

20        A.   These uniforms and, I believe, the dark blue of the Special

21     Police around those vehicles.

22        Q.   Can you give the Court an idea of how big a town Pecane is?

23        A.   At least 40 to 50 homes, at least.

24        Q.   And would you say that -- or can you give the Court an idea of

25     approximately how much of the town was burning?

Page 3774

 1        A.   I would say approximately a third to a half.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, if we could have 65 ter 4901 admitted.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 5             Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P304, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P304 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Russo.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Hill, let's move now to page 7704 and starting at line 15.

11             MR. RUSSO:  In e-court, that's page 67; and the B/C/S appears at

12     page 46, line 4.

13        Q.   And, here, Mr. Hill, you indicate that on the way back from this

14     trip, you found a route leading north towards Bihac and Srb, and I would

15     like you to explain to the Court what you believe the significance of

16     that route was and what you saw there.

17        A.   I believe that to be the route of the Serb evacuation.  I have

18     been trying to find it as I was travelling around the sector.  We were

19     following the tank tracks in the pavement.  When we come back down, we

20     noticed there was a large ammunition dump.  The landmark for us was a

21     headless horse in the road.  There is a large ammunition dump.  If you

22     went north by Otric, then we found the evacuation route.  It had not been

23     cleaned up.

24             There was a multitude of T-34 tanks, Serb, that were left there.

25     There were several vehicles destroyed, several ammunition trucks that had

Page 3775

 1     been destroyed completely.  But there was an awful of lot of vehicles

 2     that were pointing north that had been run over by tank, and an awful lot

 3     of trailers and personal effects strewn along the route all the way up

 4     into Bosnia.  And we later determined that's what the evacuation route of

 5     the Serbs were -- was.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to show you a series of photographs.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 8             MR. RUSSO:

 9        Q.   And I would like you to explain them to the Court very briefly.

10             MR. RUSSO:  We'll start, Mr. Registrar, if we could, with 65

11     ter 4906.

12        Q.   Mr. Hill, could you tell the Court what that is?

13        A.   That is a truck and trailer with SAM-6, the NATO designation for

14     surface to air missiles; so, on the road approximately around Otric, just

15     in the middle of the road, and in perfect condition.

16        Q.   Did that appear to you to be abandoned or was that part of a unit

17     which was moving?

18        A.   No.  That was abandoned and that was Serbian.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. RUSSO:  If we could now have 65 ter 4909.

21        Q.   Mr. Hill, can you explain to the Court what this represents?

22        A.   All along the route, it appeared that they were doing a fighting

23     withdrawal.  You would come up to a point like this, where there would be

24     crates and crates and crates of ammunition.  It appeared they loaded

25     their tanks.  They were fighting and would fight back to the next

Page 3776

 1     position.  And every so often on the road, there was these ammunition

 2     piles, which I believe that's ammunition for T-34 tanks which I believe

 3     is 80-millimitre.  Then you would also find ammunition trucks that had

 4     been blown up, or the odd army vehicle that had been destroyed.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  If we could now have 65 ter 4908.

 7        Q.   Mr. Hill, can you tell the Court what that is?

 8        A.   That is an example of a trailer and a pile of personal belongings

 9     that was extremely common through the sector, especially on the

10     evacuation route up to Bosnia.

11        Q.   And, Mr. Hill, did you see any destroyed houses or burning houses

12     along this particular route?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. RUSSO:  And if we could have 65 ter 4907.

15        Q.   Mr. Hill, is that an example of what you saw on that road?

16        A.   Yes.  We would see a group of three or four homes, no soldiers,

17     no civilians around, and the homes would be burning.  So I simply took a

18     picture as an example.

19             Another point along the route, once we got to Otric for the first

20     time, we saw all of the fields, all of the animals, cows, pigs, sheep,

21     whatever, had been killed, shot.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Finally, if we could have 65 ter 4910.

23        Q.   Mr. Hill, can you tell the Court what is depicted here.

24        A.   That is an example of a civilian vehicle that has been run over

25     by either an APC or a tank.

Page 3777

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, if I could ask to have all of these

 3     admitted, again, as one exhibit, if there is no objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 5             Mr. Registrar, this series of photographs will be?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P305, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P305 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Hill, did you ever encounter any evidence that there were

10     bodies inside these vehicles which had been crushed?

11        A.   The difference with some of the vehicles is there would be

12     blood-stains outside of the vehicle, or there weren't; strong smell of a

13     body, or there wouldn't be; and in a couple of vehicles when we looked

14     inside, we actually could find some human hair.  It depended on vehicle

15     you were with, but we never actually found one with a body in it.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move now to page 7705 and starting at line

17     five.

18             MR. RUSSO:  In e-court, that is page 68.  The B/C/S translation

19     appears at page 46, line 25.

20        Q.   Mr. Hill, in your statement at this point, you indicate that you

21     went to a town called Srb, which you indicate was destroyed, and that you

22     saw individuals there looting.  I would like you to explain to the Court

23     what you witnessed there.

24        A.   It would be the typical town with some houses destroyed, some

25     burning, HV soldiers coming out of the house.  In this case, I saw an

Page 3778

 1     individual stealing rakija from one of the houses.  They would bring out

 2     a couch, for example.  The soldiers had virtually nothing for

 3     check-points.  So, over time, you would see that they would build up

 4     their check-point based on what they stole out of houses:  A roof, some

 5     tarps, or, in this case, a couch.  That's basically what they were doing.

 6        Q.   Was it only HV soldiers you saw in this town or were there other

 7     individuals?

 8        A.   I believe it was just HV soldiers.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             Moving now to the next page, page 7706, starting at line 22.

11             MR. RUSSO:  In e-court, this is page 69; and the B/C/S

12     translation appears at page 47, line 27.

13        Q.   Mr. Hill, here, you note that on driving back towards Otric, you

14     saw an orange VW, which I take to mean Volkswagen, flat bed, with bodies

15     inside.  I'd like you to explain these vehicles to the Court and what you

16     know about them.

17        A.   As we drove north and we found the route, when we passed Otric,

18     we noticed six bodies, four soldiers and two civilians, in a field by a

19     tractor.  I wanted to take photos but I didn't, because we had found the

20     route.  By the time we had gone up and back gown down, the bodies were

21     gone and we had passed a Volkswagen flat bed, orange, with the bodies on

22     the back.

23             What we later discovered is this is how the HV were getting rid

24     of the bodies.  These individuals, I believe, had grey uniforms, and it

25     was the orange, flat bed VWs that were removing the bodies whenever they

Page 3779

 1     were found.

 2        Q.   And had you seen these orange VWs elsewhere in this sector?

 3        A.   After this point in time, yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Moving now to the 11th of August, I'd like you to refer to page

 8     7709, starting at the top of that page.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  This is page 72 in e-court, and the B/C/S translation

10     is at page 49, line 4.

11        Q.   And, Mr. Hill, in this portion of your statement, you describe

12     going to Donji Lapac, and seeing soldiers whom you believe were from the

13     4th Brigade.  I'd like you to tell the Court what you saw there.

14        A.   Just south of Donji Lapac, there is a gas station and there was

15     check-point there.  I believe there was four soldiers, 4 Brigade.  The

16     town was the same as any other.  It was virtually destroyed, nothing had

17     been cleared, and, again, the artillery impact south of the town.

18     Walking into the town itself, you could see that the town was burning,

19     there was flames and smoke.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And before we move on to the 12th of August, I'd like

21     to take a look at a report which you made, summarizing the events that

22     you have witnessed between the 4th and the 11th.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 728.

24        Q.   Mr. Hill, do you recognise this report?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 3780

 1        Q.   And was it a report made by you?

 2        A.   I believe so.

 3        Q.   And does it accurately reflect the events you witnessed between

 4     the 4th and the 11th of August, 1995?

 5        A.   Yes, it does.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, if we could have 728 admitted.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 8             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, what is the date of the document?

10     It shows 4th through 11th, but there is no date of when it was made, that

11     I can see.

12             MR. RUSSO:  If we could move to - just for counsel's benefit - to

13     his second statement.  That's at 7640.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Excuse me, Mr. Russo.  I'm not asking about the

15     statement.  I'm asking if there is a date on this document when this

16     document was made, not the statement but the document itself.

17             MR. RUSSO:  I understand that.  In the statement, on the first

18     page, it indicates that he provided this to Lieutenant-Colonel Tymchuk

19     while he was in theatre.  So that means it was made sometime during the

20     time he was in Sector South.  That is as accurate as I can be.

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Okay.  That's not a date.  That's just a

22     time-frame.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's ask the witness whether he still remembers.

24             Do you still remember of what date this report was produced?

25             THE WITNESS:  I don't recall.

Page 3781

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any recollection as to whether it was

 2     close to the last day covered by this report or that there would have

 3     been a longer period of time between producing this report and the

 4     11th of August.

 5             THE WITNESS:  It would be as close as possible to the final date

 6     on the report.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And what do you consider possible in this respect?

 8     Are we talking two, three, four days, or are we talking about two weeks?

 9             THE WITNESS:  The next day, I would think, at the latest.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So shortly after the 11th of August?

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's as far as we can go, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will deal with it in

14     cross.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand there are no objections?  There was

16     just this question.

17             Then, Mr. Registrar, the report would be?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P306, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P306 is admitted into evidence.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Mr. Hill, moving now to the 12th of August, I'd like you to refer

23     to page 7715, starting at line 19.

24             MR. RUSSO:  And in e-court, this is page 78; and the B/C/S is

25     page 53, line 28.

Page 3782

 1        Q.   Mr. Hill, at this portion of your statement, you indicate that on

 2     the 12th of August, you travelled down to 1 Brigade HQ, which was a Serb

 3     brigade.  I'd like you to describe for the Court what it is that you saw

 4     down there.

 5        A.   Which line are you on in the report?

 6        Q.   It begins at line 19 of 7715.

 7        A.   We went south to locate the company position, and that's where

 8     1 Brigade for the Serbs were in Vrlika.  There was four T-34 tanks,

 9     excellent shape, that had been captured and were being refueled and

10     maintained by the Croats.  It appeared that the brigade had simply left.

11     There was no damage.  We had found a large storeroom with mines, some had

12     been open.  There was a trip-wire across the top, so we simply left.

13        Q.   You indicate that there was no damage there.  Can you explain

14     what you mean.  Does that mean there was no evidence of a fight or an

15     attack?  I'm not sure what you mean by that.

16        A.   By no damage, there would be nothing burnt, nothing destroyed by

17     artillery.  It just appeared as if they'd left.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Well, we've covered the events from, I believe, the

19     8th through the 12th.  I'd like to show you a map which you created,

20     indicating some of the places that we've talked.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have 65 ter 5171.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please come closer to the

23     microphone.

24             MR. RUSSO:

25        Q.   Mr. Hill, do you recall this map?

Page 3783

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   I'll walk you through it briefly, if that's all right.

 3             Do the routes, in highlighted colour, do those indicate the

 4     routes that you followed, when you were travelling to the towns which are

 5     circled?

 6        A.   Yes, it does.

 7        Q.   And does the route which -- excuse me, does the route which

 8     appears in green represent the route that you took on the 8th of August,

 9     down to Pakovo Selo?

10        A.   Yes, it does.

11        Q.   And does the route which appears in orange represent that route

12     you took on the 9th of August, when you travelled through Kistanje

13     towards Benkovac?

14        A.   Yes, it does.

15        Q.   And does the route which appears in blue represent the route you

16     took on the 10th of August, when you went up towards Korenica and also

17     towards Strmica?

18        A.   Yes, it does.

19        Q.   And does the route which appears in pink represent the route you

20     took on the 11th of August, up towards and past Donji Lapac?

21        A.   Yes, it does.

22        Q.   And the circle which appears at the top of the line in pink with

23     a question mark, where it says "unknown town," can you tell the Court

24     what it is that that references?

25        A.   When we went through at Donji Lapac, which is where 4 Brigade

Page 3784

 1     soldiers were, they let us through and said, "There are ARSK in the

 2     hills, stay on the road."  The next town we came to, which I don't know

 3     which it is, was destroyed.  And from there, we saw the next town north

 4     being burnt.  I don't know which towns they were.  According to the

 5     soldiers, past Donji Lapac was Bosnia; but according to the map, it is

 6     not in Bosnia.  That's why there is a question mark.

 7        Q.   And just to be clear, the distance between Donji Lapac and where

 8     you circled the question mark, is this simply an approximation and not

 9     meant to indicate the exact location of that town?

10        A.   Absolutely.  All I know is we drove north of that check-point to

11     what we came across as the first town.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And, finally, the route which appears towards the

13     bottom right-hand corner in yellow, is that the route that you followed

14     on the 12th of August, down to the Kenyan position?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, if I could have 65 ter 5171 admitted.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.

19             Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P307, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P307 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Hill, the final area I want to talk about is on the 13th of

24     August, and I'd like to refer you to page 7719 of your statement.  That's

25     at line 26.

Page 3785

 1             MR. RUSSO:  And in e-court, this is page 82.  B/C/S appearing at

 2     page 56, line 16.

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Hill, at this portion of your statement, you discuss

 4     going for a meal with Ivan Juric at the parliament building, and a

 5     discussion you had with him there.  I'd like to you tell the Court what

 6     Mr. Juric told you during that time.

 7        A.   We had lunch and he pulled up a map.  It appeared to be like an

 8     officer's mess.  And he explained to me on the map how the attack had

 9     occurred, with HV and HVO in cooperation, coming up through the Dinara.

10     Then there was a three-pronged attack on Knin.  And then across the zone

11     and up north, there was a Special Police brigade, and I believe he said

12     there was a total of six that had attacked.  We just discussed how the

13     operation had gone from his end.

14             He gave us some souvenirs, an HV cap badge, Serb money.  And at

15     that point, we also talked to an engineer officer, where we identified

16     for him on the map where the 1 Brigade headquarters in Vrlika was, so

17     that they could dispose of the mines.

18        Q.   And during this discussion, did you ask Mr. Juric the units over

19     which he had command?

20        A.   Yes.  I had asked what the responsibility of the military police

21     were, specifically on the day that the Croats soldiers had come to the

22     camp.  In front of the camp, I saw an individual with a shaved head and a

23     grey uniform, almost like an overall uniform with a black belt.  But he

24     was carrying an MP-5, which is a sub-machine gun.  It was suppressed with

25     a laser sight.  He had an old man at his feet, almost like a dog.

Page 3786

 1             I had asked Ivan what he was, and he said he was

 2     counter-terrorist unit.  And I asked if that was part of the military

 3     police, and he said, yes, that they had military police, the HV.  But as

 4     part of the military police, they had a counter-terrorism unit.  I asked

 5     Ivan, I said, "Well, who are terrorists?"  And he said, "Serbs."

 6        Q.   Did Mr. Juric make any distinction for you, amongst the answer

 7     "Serbs," as to who were terrorists?

 8        A.   He simply said "Serbs."  I took that to mean Serbs as the

 9     population, Serbs.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, I no further questions.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Russo.

13             Who will be first to cross-examine the witness?  I have looked at

14     your estimates of yesterday.  The total is from the minimal estimate to

15     the maximum is three to five hours taken all together.

16             We have available two hours 45 minutes.  The parties are urged to

17     be as efficient as possible, and to focus on the most important parts

18     first, and see whether we can finish within this time.

19             MR. KAY:  Of course, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, please proceed.

21             You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kay who is counsel for

22     Mr. Cermak.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:

24        Q.   Mr. Hill, I'm going to ask some questions now about that man,

25     Mr. Juric, whom you gave us a picture of in your statement, Exhibit P292.

Page 3787

 1     And you described him as having great control over the area that you were

 2     in, being Sector South.  Is that right?

 3        A.   I would say authority, not control.

 4        Q.   Right.  Should we just have a look how he got there, because you

 5     also make points about how he, as a major, was apparently able to command

 6     colonels.

 7        A.   Mm-hm.

 8             MR. KAY:  First document I'd like to look at is on the

 9     Prosecution 65 ter list, Your Honour.  It is 3113.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please get closer to the

11     microphones.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Usher, you'd adjust the microphones a

13     bit better.

14             MR. KAY:

15        Q.   This is a document dated the 2nd of August, 1995.  It comes from

16     the military police administration, and from its chief, a man called

17     Major-General Laussic.  And it's a document that goes to the 72nd

18     Military Police Battalion in Split.

19             Just seeing that reference there, which you can see on the first

20     page, were you aware that that was the particular battalion that Major

21     Juric was commanding?

22        A.   No.  All he had ever explained to me was the military police were

23     located down around Split, and then they came up through the advance; not

24     a specific unit.

25        Q.   If we look at paragraph 10, which is on page 4 of this document,

Page 3788

 1     we can see in the second paragraph that Major-General Laussic, the head

 2     of the military police, appointed Major Ivan Juric and a group of

 3     officers from the regular military police and military police

 4     administration crime section to assist in commanding and organizing the

 5     activities of the 72nd and 73rd.  And then in the last sentence,

 6     something that you had referred to, the commanders of the 72nd Military

 7     Police and 73rd Military Police Battalions shall be subordinated to Major

 8     Ivan Juric.

 9             And you see that there?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   Did you know if he was commanding as well the 73rd Military

12     Police Battalion?

13        A.   My perception was, anywhere within my zone of operation, he was

14     in command of the military police.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I ask that this document now become an

17     exhibit in the case.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

19             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

21             Just checking the document, that's why you have to wait for a

22     second.

23             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I could have spent longer on it, but --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

25             MR. KAY:  -- I was conscious of Your Honours' request.

Page 3789

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  My problem is a different one.

 2             MR. KAY:  Oh.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The original consists of three pages.  Apparently,

 4     one page is missing, where we have an English version which seems to be

 5     complete.  Before we decide whether or not to admit it, I would like to

 6     get confirmation that the whole of the original is uploaded in the

 7     original as well.

 8             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Your Honour, that will be something perhaps the

 9     Prosecution and Defence can liaise on.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, during the next break.

11             We will already ask Mr. Registrar to assign a number to it.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D267, marked

13     for identification.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It keeps that status for the time being.

15             MR. KAY:

16        Q.   I am interested in how, when you were having these dealings with

17     the military police, it didn't come about that you were aware of what

18     battalion you were dealing with.  Is there any further information or

19     anything you would like to say about that, to explain your lack of

20     knowledge?

21        A.   When I ran into issues or anybody I needed to deal with at all on

22     the military police side, it was strictly Ivan.  It never, never came to

23     my attention what unit; and to be honest, it was irrelevant.

24        Q.   Did you spend any time with him discussing the structure of the

25     Croatian army military police?

Page 3790

 1        A.   I believe, at one point, when we had the visit with Akashi, I

 2     spent almost the entire day with him.  We talked about, I believe, that

 3     he was trained with the American forces.  He lived down on the coast.  I

 4     believe he had two children, was moving to Zagreb.  We, obviously, would

 5     have talked about structures of NATO, Canadian military, as well

 6     Croatian.  But to this day, I still do not know what unit he was

 7     commanding.

 8        Q.   That wasn't my question, and you gave a lot of personal details

 9     about him.  My question was concerned with whether you had asked him

10     about the structure of the Croatian army military police, so that you

11     were better informed, and I'll add that as a rider to the question.

12        A.   I don't recall.

13        Q.   Let us now look at another document, Prosecution 65 ter 3111.

14     This is a document dated the 2nd of August again, coming from

15     Major-General Laussic, who is the chief of the military police

16     administration.  It was sent to the 73rd.  The subject being the

17     resistance of the 72nd.

18             MR. KAY:  And if we turn to page 2, I'm taking this from the

19     English.

20        Q.   We can see in paragraph 1, Juric is sent with others to the

21     72nd Battalion forward command post in Sajkovici on the 3rd of August.

22     And, again, that matter, Major Juric is tasked.  In the command system,

23     he is superior to the 72nd and 73rd commanders, with regard to the 73rd

24     extending assistance to the 72nd.

25             Again, that confirms what you had believed from your dealings

Page 3791

 1     with him.  Is that right, Mr. Hill?

 2        A.   In which sense?

 3        Q.   Yes.  That he was superior to the commanders of the 72nd and

 4     73rd?

 5        A.   My perception was he was superior to the commanders, but I cannot

 6     tell you specifically which units.

 7        Q.   Right.

 8             Can we just turn to the next page, page 3.  He is responsible for

 9     the implementation of all military police tasks in the zone of

10     responsibility of the 72nd, and to cooperate and coordinate the

11     implementation of tasks with the workers of the Zadar-Knin police

12     administration.  There's further detail there.

13             He is authorised to undertake all measures to ensure efficient

14     and effective implementation of military police tasks in the 72nd and

15     north zones of responsibility.

16             Did you have any conversations with him about his relationship

17     with the civilian police?

18        A.   Not that I recall.

19        Q.   Any reason why you didn't discuss that with him, when you've

20     given this impression of having long conversations with him and

21     discussing the nature of your work and his work?

22        A.   Honestly, I have no idea.

23             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, if this document could now be admitted

24     into evidence as an exhibit.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, any objection?

Page 3792

 1             Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D268.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D268 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KAY:  The next document I want to look at is 65 ter 2224.

 6        Q.   This is a document dated the 3rd of August, 1995, from, again,

 7     the chief, Major-General Laussic, of the military police administration.

 8     It's an order on the work of the military police cooperation and joint

 9     work of the civilian and military police, and arises from a meeting on

10     the 3rd of August.

11             If we look at page 2, this document which was sent to the

12     commanders of those units, the 72nd and 73rd, whom we've seen Major Juric

13     was commanding, it is an order concerning various tasks.  And at

14     paragraph 1, it says about establishing contacts with local police

15     administrations, commanders of the police stations; and paragraph 1.1

16     concerns check-points.  Having introduced the document, it is about that

17     that I'm asking you, Major Hill.

18             In your statements, you describe check-points that were being

19     manned by military police.  Did you also go through check-points that

20     were manned by civilian police?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   Did you go through check-points where they were working jointly?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   And did you go through check-points where they may have been on

25     their own without the other, i.e., separate check-points of civilian

Page 3793

 1     police on their own?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Separate check-points of military police on their own?

 4        A.   And separate check-points of HV soldiers on their own.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             You've described the use of Major Juric's name as being total

 7     gold in your statement - that was your expression - and that enabled you

 8     to get through the check-points.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Absolutely.

10        Q.   Did that use of his name have the same effect with the civilian

11     police?

12        A.   Specifically, I don't recall; but if I was ever -- ever in a jam,

13     no matter what kind of a check-point, his name would get me through, and

14     I can't recall if that was a mixed up with HV police.  I don't know.  But

15     any time I was in trouble, I got out of it.

16        Q.   And thank you for that answer.

17             The next matter I'm asking you about is your mention in your

18     statement that Mr. Cermak's name didn't have the same effect in the area.

19     Is that right?

20        A.   In what context?

21        Q.   Well, people did not, when you use that name, respond in the same

22     way as when you used Major Juric's name.

23        A.   I don't ever recall ever using Cermak's name when I was in a

24     mind.

25        Q.   Right.

Page 3794

 1        A.   It was always Juric.

 2        Q.   And is that because your experience of using Cermak's name never

 3     had the same effect?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, the witness already indicated that he

 6     never used Cermak's name.

 7             MR. KAY:  In a bind.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  I'm not sure what other situation they would be

 9     referring to.

10             MR. KAY:  In a bind.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I am --

12             MR. KAY:  In a bind is a different situation from the normal

13     passage.  In a bind is when you are in an emergency or a system of

14     urgency.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Your objection was about --

16             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, my objection was --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- where the witness said "I don't ever recall ever

18     using Cermak's name," and then whether that was because of a certain

19     experience of using Cermak name, never had the same effect.  I take it

20     that Mr. Russo is saying, if the witness has never used that name, then,

21     of course, asking him about whether it would have a lesser effect when he

22     used that name sounds to be rather hypothetical.  That's the objection

23     Mr. Russo puts.

24             Mr. Russo, at the same time, if that is the case, then the

25     witness will certainly answer that question, and that takes even perhaps

Page 3795

 1     less time than our dispute about whether the question is appropriate.

 2             Did you ever have any experience about how effective the use of

 3     the name of Mr. Cermak was?  I'm now not referring exclusively to you

 4     using that name but to others, or if you ever did it yourself.

 5             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You never did it.  Do you have any knowledge or

 7     experience of others using that name?  The answer is no.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. KAY:

10        Q.   In your statements, Mr. Hill, you refer to Cermak's authority

11     never being respected on the ground.

12             If I look at page 577731, line 26, in a passage of your

13     statement, where you deal where freedom of movement and restriction of

14     movement, what happened, what General Cermak said, and what happened on

15     the ground a lot of times were as completely different.

16             We've seen your statement, we've all read it, you see; and so we

17     know what's within it, and we know the nature of your statements, where

18     you say, quite clearly, that Cermak's authority and what happened on the

19     ground did not deliver results.

20             That's the nature of your statement, isn't it?

21             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to that.  If he

22     wants to point to a particular portion of the statement where he

23     indicates that Cermak's authority was not respected, that's fine.  I

24     think what he's actually doing in this question is indicating, based on a

25     statement where he says what Mr. Cermak did and what happened, are two

Page 3796

 1     different things.  That could be for any number of reasons:  One of which

 2     is his authority not being respected, another which could possibly be

 3     that is he promising one thing and not doing it.

 4             I would like a distinction made between those two, or, at a

 5     minimum, a citation to where the witness uses the term "authority not

 6     being respected."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, the nature of the statement appears to be

 8     clear upon reading.  If you would like to seek any clarification or any

 9     further details, please ask the witness.  But to ask him whether that's

10     the nature of his statement doesn't seem to assist the Chamber greatly.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. KAY:  Of course, Your Honour.

13        Q.   You described Colonel Tymchuk tearing his hair out, and having a

14     great difficulty in having what was agreed between the UN and General

15     Cermak delivered to the UN.  That's in your statements, isn't it?

16        A.   As a clarification, every day, at approximately 0900, we have an

17     orders group with all of the senior staff.  At those meetings, it is

18     discussed what liaison is occurring between General Cermak and my

19     general.  I am privy to what they are discussing and what they believe

20     will occur.  That is completely and utterly out of my realm.  I am there

21     for information only.

22             So as I am saying in the statement is what I understand they were

23     discussing and was occurring was not what I was seeing when I was out

24     driving around the sector.

25        Q.   Yeah.

Page 3797

 1        A.   I never dealt with Cermak.  I never had a meeting with him.  I

 2     didn't write a memo.  It was just information passed in the meetings

 3     daily about what was supposed or may occur, who they're negotiating with,

 4     over what issues, et cetera, et cetera.

 5        Q.   It is what was reported back to you.  Is that right?

 6        A.   Not reported to me.  Made information to the senior staff.

 7        Q.   But "report," I don't know in a military context of referring

 8     back, but information supplied back to you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Turning further to Major Juric --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I'm looking at the clock.

12             MR. KAY:  Yes.  I was trying to finish before the break, but we

13     had some interruptions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you still need?

15             MR. KAY:  Fifteen minutes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Which brings you well over the half hour you --

17             MR. KAY:  Well, I have had some interpretations, Your Honour, and

18     there are ways of doing things.  And if we're headed off, it means that

19     we can't deal with them as efficiently as we'd like.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will have a break first, because it is of no

21     use to continue at this very moment.

22             We will have a break and we will resume at five minutes past

23     11.00, and we will try to start at that time, sharp.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

Page 3798

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber informs the parties that it has inquired

 2     into whether some extra time could be found today or tomorrow, and there

 3     are -- at this moment, our efforts are focussing on an additional hearing

 4     starting at 4.15 this afternoon, but still we need a lot of confirmations

 5     and a lot of logistics to be completed before we can decide to sit.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honour, we crossed swords

 8     in the first session over a reference that I made, and I'll direct the

 9     Court's attention to 577732 of Exhibit P292, and it's line 22, for the

10     benefit of the Court.

11             At line 23:  "So that's another example of what General Cermak

12     says doesn't relate actually to what happens on the ground, because all

13     the freedom of movement was controlled by Major Juric, the military

14     police, and the civilian police at all the check-points."

15             When I asked the question of the witness, I appreciate in a quick

16     way, because of the time that the Court was concerned with, Mr. Russo

17     interrupted and said there was no example of authority not being

18     respected.  Those are the two sentences from this witness's statement,

19     Exhibit P292, where he quite clearly says "because all the freedom of

20     movement was controlled by Major Juric."

21        Q.   And, Mr. Hill, I can see you following that.  That's what I was

22     putting to you, as what you were doing was using Major Juric's name

23     because you knew that Major Cermak's authority from the freedom of

24     movement passes was not respected on the ground.

25             There it is in your statement.

Page 3799

 1        A.   I disagree.

 2        Q.   Right.

 3        A.   I used Major Juric's name strictly because Major Juric's name

 4     worked, and that reason only.

 5        Q.   But you knew from the information you were receiving that General

 6     Cermak's orders concerning freedom of movement were not being respected

 7     by the military police, civilian police, and the military on their own.

 8     Isn't that right?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. KAY:  And those passages, Your Honour, are within that page.

12        Q.   Let us turn to one last matter on Major Juric specifically,

13     because it concerned a passage in your evidence when you said he left

14     Knin round about the 14th of August.

15             MR. KAY:  What I'm going to produce here is an exhibit in the

16     case, Exhibit D47.  In fact, I will take this shorter, Your Honour.

17             This is an order in the court dated the 14th of August from

18     Major-General Laussic of that date, which the Court has previously seen,

19     which, in fact, revokes Major Juric's appointment down there and he is

20     returned to Zagreb.

21        Q.   So your belief about that was correct.

22        A.   Okay.

23             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I took that in a short way, so as not to

24     waste Court time -- well, not waste it, but take too long.

25             Can I have 65 ter 2224 that I asked the witness to see admitted

Page 3800

 1     as an exhibit.  I believe I have neglected to do that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, no objection.

 3             Then, Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D269, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D269 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. KAY:  And for the Court's information, D267, which has been

 7     marked for identification, the Prosecution have told us that they are

 8     looking into it because it is one of their documents that is being

 9     uploaded into the system and the Prosecution case manager is aware of the

10     matter.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll hear from the Prosecution.

12             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   I'd like you to see another exhibit, please, D226, which is a

14     photograph.

15             And while that is coming up, you referred meeting Major Juric in

16     a headquarters.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   And we have a photograph before us, and you see the taller

19     building.  Was that the headquarters where you met him?

20        A.   I believe so, yes.

21        Q.   Yes.  Had you been in that building when it had been under the

22     RSK forces?

23        A.   I don't recall.

24        Q.   Did you have any meetings within that building with the Croatian

25     army military police?

Page 3801

 1        A.   Starting on that first morning when I met Major Juric?

 2        Q.   Yes.  Any follow-up meetings?

 3        A.   That's where I was taken for the lunch where he explained the

 4     Operation Storm on the map, and I was in that building.  When I saw the

 5     engineer officer, it was in that building.  I believe those were the only

 6     times.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You referred, after Major Juric left, to having

 8     dealings with the new person in command of the military police in the

 9     area.  Do you remember that in your statement?

10        A.   Which page?

11        Q.   Let me just find that for you.  Let's put it this way:  Did you

12     meet Major Juric's successors?

13        A.   My understanding was the HV military police that I was dealing

14     with, not in that building, was strictly the military police of Knin, and

15     that individual was not Major Juric's replacement.  He was simply the one

16     in charge of military police in the town.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I'm looking at your statement, Exhibit P292, 577685,

18     only for references purposes; no need to be brought up.

19             "I dealt with their liaison officers and also the head of their

20     military police."

21             It's the first line on 577685.

22             "Afterwards I dealt with their liaison officers and also the head

23     of their military police?"

24             Can you explain, first of all, who you were dealing with?  Who

25     was their head of military police after Major Juric?

Page 3802

 1        A.   There was a major, I don't recall his name, who worked downtown.

 2     Later, it was a captain.

 3        Q.   Right?

 4        A.   And it was separate four buildings over by where the storage was.

 5     That's where we would go.  That's where we would hand our weapons over.

 6     He was not the replacement for Juric; he was just the local HV military

 7     police commander.

 8        Q.   And you pointed out on the photograph earlier today where that

 9     building was?

10        A.   I did.

11        Q.   And that's the one that you meant.  Is that right?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.  The liaison officers you referred to here, who were

14     they?

15        A.   I don't recall.

16        Q.   Can you recollect their rank?

17        A.   It would have been officers that were dealing with

18     Lieutenant-Colonel Tymchuk or perhaps Colonel Leslie.  They would have

19     been at least lieutenant-colonel rank or above.  It would be sparingly

20     dealing with these individuals.  I dealt with my own people on my own net

21     or chain of command.

22        Q.   Right.  And, as you say, it was the Knin military police that you

23     met.  Did you meet any other form of military police other than the Knin

24     company?

25        A.   If I recall, down in Drnis I believe, I was sent to find an

Page 3803

 1     armoured bulldozer, which was quite expensive, that the HV had taken from

 2     the UN.  I found where I thought it was.  I dealt with local --

 3        Q.   You don't need to give the detail.  I'm sorry to cut across you.

 4     It is in the statement.  It is just the identities or any other

 5     information?

 6        A.   I'm sorry.  I don't know who it was.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I won't ask any more questions about that.

 8             That military police, the local Knin military police, did you

 9     know anything about their organisation and structure within the Croatian

10     army?

11        A.   No, I didn't.

12        Q.   Did you have any detailed knowledge of the structure of the

13     Croatian army?

14        A.   No, I didn't.

15        Q.   You said in your statement, Exhibit P292, at 577732, line 32:

16     "Obviously, there's Cermak, who I was led to believe commanded all the

17     military assets in Sector South."

18             Where did you get that belief from?  What was it based upon?

19        A.   The information that I was hearing in the orders groups with

20     Colonel Tymchuk, Colonel Leslie, and General Forand everyday at 0900.

21        Q.   So you were at General Forand's meetings where that was

22     discussed.  Is that what you are saying?

23        A.   If the meeting was the daily O group at 0900.

24        Q.   Right.  Was that the belief then within the UN forces as

25     expressed to you, that --

Page 3804

 1        A.   That was my belief.

 2        Q.   Cermak commanded all the military assets in Sector South?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And by that, do you mean all the forces and --

 5        A.   All of the military assets of the HV, my understanding, was

 6     commanded by Cermak.

 7        Q.   Right.  And do you know where that information came from that was

 8     reported to you?

 9        A.   No.  It would have been my understanding from the workings of

10     those orders groups.

11        Q.   Right.  And on the same page, if we go to line 18, you say:

12     "General Cermak was the head military authority for the Croatian army

13     that we were -- that General Forand was dealing with, so he had the

14     equivalent authority of General Forand.  When General Forand said

15     something in the sector, it was done."

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Likewise, Cermak.  You've seen that statement there.  But from --

18     from passages of your statement, it seems that you have been saying that

19     when Cermak said something should be done, it wasn't done.

20        A.   On occasion.  And specific examples, as I said in my statement,

21     was the freedom of movement 11, 12, 13, an issue where he said it would

22     be done and it wasn't on the ground.  It didn't happen all the time, and

23     I was not privy to what General Cermak instructed on a regular basis.

24        Q.   Do you know what position General Cermak held in the Croatian

25     army?

Page 3805

 1        A.   I have no idea.

 2        Q.   Did you know when he was appointed to that position?

 3        A.   I have no idea.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Please pause between questions and answers, and

 5     answers and questions.

 6             MR. KAY:

 7        Q.   Do you know how long he had served in that position?

 8        A.   No.

 9             MR. KAY:  Well, I have no further questions.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

11             Who is next?  Mr. Kehoe.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, if I could just have one moment to

13     get the podium set up.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, since we're not certain yet about the

17     time afternoon, you know what my message is, isn't it?  Avoid whatever

18     questions which do not assist the Chamber, also avoid ritual dances,

19     closing doors, whatever is in the art of advocacy, and seek efficiency,

20     and that the Chamber receives as much information as possible.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hill.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Mr. Hill, I would first just remind us to be somewhat cautious

25     about the interpreters and how quickly we speak respectively.

Page 3806

 1             Turning to the period of time prior to Operation Storm --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Kehoe, I will introduce you to the

 3     witness.  You are counsel for Mr. General Gotovina.

 4             So, it is Mr. Kehoe who will cross-examine you.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Mr. Hill, turning to the period of time prior to Operation Storm,

 8     there was a high degree of hostility between the Serb population and the

 9     UN, wasn't there?

10        A.   Yes, there was.

11        Q.   And it -- your vehicles were being taken; and, in fact, a CanBat

12     soldier -- a Kenyan soldier was killed, wasn't he?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And your investigation reflected that he was, in fact, killed by

15     the RSK?

16        A.   Three soldiers of the ARSK.

17        Q.   Now, talking a bit about some of your testimony by the

18     Prosecution, and I think you have your statement before you, and we talk

19     about P292, and if you turn to page 577644, line 18.

20        A.   Line again, please.

21        Q.   Line 18.

22             Now, Mr. Hill, towards the latter part of July of 1995, you note

23     that you could feel the pressure with the soldiers rotating more, "and I

24     guess they were taking losses."

25             You did detect a degree of pressure among these soldiers as they

Page 3807

 1     came back into town in late July?

 2        A.   Pressure in the sense that we were having a high number of

 3     incompetences on the Friday afternoons, when their troops would rotate

 4     back.  It got to the point where we would close our camp, and nobody was

 5     allowed to leave during a troop rotation.

 6        Q.   And people were getting nervous, weren't they, the civilian

 7     population?

 8        A.   I can only speak to that about my interpreter.  On the night

 9     of -- the night before the Operation Storm in our bar, a MiG-21 overflew

10     the town several times, and it stressed her extremely.

11        Q.   Why don't you turn your attention to 77641, line 19 to 21,

12     beginning towards the end of line 19:  "This was approaching Operation

13     Storm which at the time we did not know was going to happen.  We started

14     to hear, through some of the civilians on the base, people were getting

15     nervous."

16        A.   Mm-hm.

17        Q.   Did you say that, sir?

18        A.   Yes, I said it.

19        Q.   Okay.  So, at the same time, you realised that there was fighting

20     going on between the HV and the ARSK up on the Dinara, didn't you?

21        A.   That was my understanding, yes.

22        Q.   And, likewise, at the same time, you noted lots of -- or more

23     military activity in Knin, didn't you?

24        A.   In what sense?

25        Q.   Well, let me just go to 577642, and maybe you can help us out

Page 3808

 1     here.  Line 30.  Are you with me?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   "We noticed leading up to 4th of August, obviously, we were not

 4     aware that there was an offensive coming, but there was more military

 5     activity in Knin."

 6             So, in addition to people being -- you commenting on pressure and

 7     people getting nervous, you noted an increase in military activity prior

 8     to Operation Storm.  Is that right?

 9        A.   The military activity being the troop rotations on the Friday

10     afternoons.

11        Q.   They increased?

12        A.   They started.  When I first got there, they did not occur.

13        Q.   So they started in July?

14        A.   I don't recall exactly when.

15        Q.   I mean, I'm just asking your assistance here.  So, in July, you

16     clearly noticed that there were troop movements coming in and out of

17     Knin?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Were they on auto more regular basis then?

20        A.   Friday afternoons.

21        Q.   And you also noted in your statement - this is P291, page 3 -

22     that there was --

23             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, that's in the middle of the page.

24        Q.   It says, at the end of July, you noted that there were -- or you

25     noticed there was a huge amount of heavy ARSK artillery pieces and tanks

Page 3809

 1     and a lot of soldiers in this border area.

 2             Was that, likewise, more pronounced as we move up towards the

 3     latter part of July in the Krajina and on the border area?

 4        A.   Yes.  And keep in mind that I had made an error originally; and

 5     that is Vrlika, not Strmica.

 6        Q.   Let's talk about Vrlika.  You're talking about Vrlika right down

 7     near the Cetina valley.  Is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And the equipment, this heavy equipment, heavy artillery pieces

10     and tanks and soldiers that you saw in and around Vrlika, can you explain

11     with a little more specificity, Captain, exactly what you say?

12        A.   When we say tanks, it would be T-54s or T-72s, NATO designation;

13     APCs; MP-2s; and the artillery would be towed at 130 millimetre.

14             MR. KEHOE:  My colleague is telling me to slow down, Judge, and

15     I'm doing my best to.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's good that your colleagues know part of my

17     responsibilities.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

20        Q.   At certain points in time, I take a pause, and I'm just waiting

21     for the interpreters to catch up.

22        A.   Mm-hm.

23        Q.   Just going back to your answer, you said you saw T-55s, APCs, and

24     MP-2s.  What are MP-2s?

25        A.   It is called BMP-2.  It's a NATO designation for a Soviet armour

Page 3810

 1     personnel carrier, track vehicle, with a 30 millimetre cannon on it.

 2        Q.   Now, let's talk about that.  You saw those down in the Vrlika

 3     area?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Which is right near the Cetina valley?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, is that a mobile pieces?  Obviously, mobile in the sense

 8     that it's manned on an APC and can -- as opposed to being dug-in.  You

 9     put it on the back of a truck, and you --

10        A.   No, no.  It is a track vehicle with a turret, with a

11     30-millimetre; a smaller version of a tank, for lack of a better

12     description.

13        Q.   Now, the other item that you mentioned was a T-54.  T-54 is a

14     tanks, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you, likewise, see troops in that area when you went down to

17     the Vrlika area near the Cetina valley?

18        A.   Yes.  They would be with the vehicles.

19        Q.   And when you saw them, were they moving when you saw them?

20        A.   I don't recall.

21        Q.   Now, approximately when was this that you saw these items down in

22     the Vrlika and Cetina valley?

23        A.   According to my statement, the 31st of July is when I was down

24     there.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now let's move our attention to Strmica.  You, likewise,

Page 3811

 1     talked about Strmica during the course of your statements.  And if we can

 2     move to, I guess, your 1996 statement, which is P91 [sic], you note there

 3     that:  "There were ..." --

 4             I'm talking about the middle of the page here, Captain:  "There

 5     were dug-in artillery positions in the vicinity of Knin; examples,

 6     Strmica, in the hills four or five kilometres west of town."

 7             Can you talk to us a little bit about those dug-in positions in

 8     Strmica?

 9        A.   North-east, I believe, of Knin, we were coming back one day and

10     we came around behind the waterfalls, which we hadn't done before.  And I

11     remember seeing three dug-in ARSK guns in a battery position there that I

12     didn't realise had been there before.

13        Q.   When you say "dug-in," can you explain to the Chamber exactly

14     what you mean?

15        A.   Basically, the gun is put in a position to fire, so it is not

16     mobile.  They dig around it, they can put up sandbags for protection.

17     There is camouflage netting above so you can't see them from above,

18     versus being hooked onto the back of a vehicle and moved quickly.

19        Q.   Did it appear to you, Captain, that the -- these positions around

20     Strmica had been there for a while?

21        A.   I had no way to tell.

22        Q.   Did it appear to you in -- well, just based on your military

23     experience, does it take some period of time to dig into these positions?

24        A.   It would have taken a day.

25        Q.   And, approximately, when did you see these positions in Strmica?

Page 3812

 1        A.   I don't recall the exact date, but prior to OP Storm.

 2        Q.   Now, let us --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Judge.

 5             Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Let us turn your attention to 577643 of your P92 [sic] statement.

 7     That's the big statement, Captain.

 8        A.   Mm-hm.

 9        Q.   And if I can turn to line 9, and just deal with the paragraph in

10     line 9, which also talks of you being up in Strmica prior to Operation

11     Storm.

12             Is that right?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   And you say, and if I can read this:  "Then there was on a

15     particular day, it was close to the 5th," you meant the 4th, and I think

16     you corrected, "probably the Monday or Tuesday, we got to Strmica because

17     the Croats had shelled Strmica, and there was a Kenyan company position

18     there.  So we went to check it out and we actually got up into --

19     actually went into Bosnia through Strmica almost to Grahovo by accident.

20     We'd actually stumbled into what were the front lines."

21             Now, were the front lines that you stumbled into ARSK front

22     lines?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   They now had tanks, T-80s and T-84s.  Just let me stop you there.

25     The T-80 and T-84 are the more modern version of the former JNA tanks,

Page 3813

 1     aren't they.

 2        A.   It is the designation for the JNA tank.  But a T-80, for example,

 3     is known as a T-72 by NATO Russian, one of the better ones; T-84 is an

 4     APC JNA, which is actually a BMP-2, Russian NATO.

 5        Q.   Just to -- if we can orient ourselves a bit, Captain, when we

 6     talk about, you know, it's like a T-55, that is generally an older tank?

 7        A.   Much.  Smaller caliber gun, less armour.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could there be pauses between questions and

 9     answer, please.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Sorry.  Apologies to the booth.

11        Q.   And when we're talking about a T-80 and T-84, we're talking about

12     a much more recent vintage?

13        A.   Absolutely.

14        Q.   And a powerful weapon on them, on the tank?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   They now had tanks, T-80s and T-84s, I believe, in the Yugoslav

17     version.  They had those --

18             MR. KEHOE:  I believe we left a letter out of there.

19        Q.   They had the BMP-2S?

20             What are BMP-2s?

21        A.   Same as of the T-84.

22        Q.   Same thing?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   "They actually had them in Strmica.  Their soldiers were

25     camouflaged."  Strmica, which is north-east about 20 kilometres from

Page 3814

 1     Knin, right on the border with Bosnia.  "It was obvious this was major

 2     immediate staging area.  The guys were camouflaged who were going out on

 3     patrols.  There was a lot of brass on the roads.  They were shocked to

 4     see us."

 5             Now, when you noticed that was a lot of brass on the roads, what

 6     did you mean by that, Captain?

 7        A.   From their cannons on their APCs, the road was littered with

 8     cannon shells.  We were actually driving over them.

 9        Q.   Now, where was this --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

11             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm afraid I'm close to the point -- I'm close to

13     the point where I really have to act as a traffic policeman, just saying

14     stop, proceed.  May I urge you just a little break; and if you look at me

15     now and then, I'll give signs.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   You know that you said:  "From their cannons on their APCs, the

18     road was littered with cannon shells."  Now were these shells coming from

19     the ARSK APCs?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You noted that this was a staging area, in your opinion.  Did you

22     learn what the ARSK was doing or getting ready to do?

23        A.   From what I saw, they were -- had been firing from that roadway

24     where we first encountered them in the morning.  They were sending

25     patrols up into the woods up the hill into Bosnia.  We saw soldiers

Page 3815

 1     coming back from patrols.  Those were the ones that had the camouflage

 2     faces, which we had never seen before, and we could hear shooting in the

 3     distance up near Bosnia.

 4        Q.   And, again, sir, you're referring to ARSK soldiers that you were

 5     observing?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now one point of clarification.  In your 1996 statement, P291,

 8     could you go to page 3 of that, sir.

 9             In the middle of the page, in the paragraph that starts:  "I

10     didn't see ..."

11        A.   Mm-hm.

12        Q.   On that last sentence, it says:  "Other artillery batteries could

13     be seen above the waterfalls north-east of Knin."

14             Now, is that a battery position that was different than the

15     dug-in positions that you had seen around Strmica?

16        A.   No, it's the same.

17        Q.   It's the same.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   That's why I asked the point of clarification, Captain.

20             Now, as we move towards Operation Storm, and I want to take you

21     to the morning of the 4th, I take it from your diary that you had been

22     out the night before prior to the actual events of the 4th.  Is that

23     right?

24        A.   Out, as in?

25        Q.   Well, I guess in your diary, and if I may --

Page 3816

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, can we just bring up 1D26-0054.

 3        Q.   For clarity sake, this is a typed version of your diary.

 4        A.   Ah.

 5        Q.   Do you see the insert for 3 August 1995?

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Can I put this up a bit?  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Do you see that, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   And I guess you had been out.  What is the Cando, by the way?

10        A.   It's call the Can Do.  It was a club on the camp that was run by

11     the Canadians.  We were precluded from leaving the camp.

12        Q.   Well, suffice it so say, I guess you had gone out; and in the

13     notes, you had been out late and then you were awoken again at 4.00 in

14     the morning.

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Now, when the actual shelling took place, you went down into the

17     bunkers.  Is that right?

18        A.   When the shelling commenced at 0500, I went around to the

19     C containers for the Czech.  The bunkers were the up hill, and I didn't

20     go to those until later.

21        Q.   But you went in with the Czechs.  And looking at this diary,

22     about six lines down, that is where you had the door open six inches as

23     you watched?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And, obviously, it -- you note, following that sentence, that you

Page 3817

 1     were a tad nervous, as is understandable.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, how long did you spend in that Czech container?

 4        A.   I believe about 90 minutes.

 5        Q.   And what you observed, you observed while looking through this

 6     six-inch opening in the door?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, you noted in the course of your statement, if I may -- and

 9     pardon me.  It is at page 577651, line 30.

10             Are you with me, Captain?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   "They were shooting at us from Strmica."

13             Now, at that particular time, Strmica was under control of the

14     ARSK.  Are you just referring to a general area north by north-east?

15        A.   The direction with the border with Bosnia, which would be east.

16        Q.   So you're not intending to say it is directly coming from

17     Serb-held area at that point?

18        A.   No, I'm not.

19        Q.   Now, you noted that, I think in your testimony, that you were

20     fired upon by a mortar at about 0630.  Is that right?

21        A.   I don't recall exactly the time; but, yes, it was fired.

22        Q.   Okay.  I mean, can you give us an approximation of just --

23        A.   Between 6.30 and 7.30.

24        Q.   And it was later assessed, through an UNMO examination, that that

25     mortar had been fired by the ARSK?

Page 3818

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And that was the job of the UNMOs to do that type of analysis,

 3     wasn't it?

 4        A.   In any event, where there is damage caused by shelling or

 5     something like that, it is called a battle damage assessment.  They would

 6     come and assess who actually fired, what the weapon was, so that we could

 7     go to the warring faction to say, "Why was this done?"

 8        Q.   You did that in this instance, and concluded it was the ARSK base

 9     that was right next to you, right?

10        A.   I don't know where; but it was ARSK where it had originated.

11        Q.   Now, at that time, sir -- and I would like to ask you a question

12     about 65 ter 436.

13             Mr. Hill, this is a letter of 4 August at 0630 hours, coming from

14     General Mrksic to General Janvier.  I welcome you to read the entire

15     letter, Captain.  I will not.  But the first sentence is:  "The Croatian

16     army and the HVO have launched unprovoked aggression against the Republic

17     of Serbian Krajina."

18             Two paragraphs down:  "We demand that you take immediate measures

19     to stop the aggression."

20             My question, Captain -- let me take a pause.

21             My question is, Captain:  At approximately the same time as the

22     shelling came into the base or the mortar round came into the base, did

23     you ultimately learn that such a letter was being forwarded to the UN by

24     the ARSK.

25        A.   This is the first time I have seen this.

Page 3819

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we will offer 65 ter 436

 2     into evidence at this time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection, I see, from Mr. Russo.

 4             Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D270, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D270 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   Now, you noted for us -- and let me just go back to your diary.

10             MR. KEHOE:  If I can put that back on the screen, 1D26-0054.  I

11     believe, Your Honour, just for the sake of clarification, if I could just

12     admit this page at this point, if we could just deal with the D number.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That one page of the diary, no objection,

14     Mr. Russo.

15             Then, Mr. Registrar.

16             MR. REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D271, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  D271 is admitted into evidence.

18             You may proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   As we move down in this particular document, you note that you

21     did, in fact -- can you see it, sir.

22        A.   Can I have a larger, please.

23        Q.   Oh, I'm sorry.  Yeah, it is a little tough.

24             Captain, let me know at any point if you want a document

25     enlarged, just please say right away.

Page 3820

 1        A.   Okay.

 2        Q.   If we can just go down a little bit on that, dealing with the

 3     4th of August.

 4             You were in the bunker for 90 minutes and then you went to --

 5     excuse me.  You were in the Czech container for 90 minutes, and then you

 6     went to your bunker.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And at this particular point, with the shelling, you made a

 9     decision that you were just going to stay down in this bunker.  Is that

10     right?

11        A.   My -- that's where my unit was.  That was my bunker.

12        Q.   I'm just reading this document about midway down:  "I was sitting

13     on the steps of the bunker, looked left; and by the ISO a big fire blast

14     had knocked me back a couple of steps.  The LO," and that was illegible,

15     "caught us.  Got a bruise on my lower back.  Scared the," whatever, "out

16     of me.  Decided to stay in the bunker right at the bottom.  Felt weak,

17     lay down, while the shelling continue.  At about 7.30, it slowed down."

18             I welcome you to read the rest of the inserts there.

19             Now, while you were in this bunker, sir, you were hearing the

20     shelling, weren't you?

21        A.   We were hearing it, and we were watching it.

22        Q.   As you moved down in that, about five more lines to "right

23     before," starting off at "the day," on the right-hand side.

24        A.   Mm-hm.

25        Q.   It says:  "The day was a blur.  Shelling is scarey.  Start to

Page 3821

 1     develop a twitch at bad sounds."

 2             In this area, other than your looking out from the door at six

 3     inches, do you include anything in there where you are actually watching

 4     the shelling from your bunker?

 5        A.   I don't understand the question.

 6        Q.   I'll withdraw the question.

 7             When you talked about the day being a blur, what did you mean?

 8        A.   How long, how fast, trying to do my job, intermixed with the

 9     refugees, the shelling, et cetera, et cetera.

10        Q.   So, given the context of what was transpiring during that period

11     of time, there were many different events taking place during this

12     time-frame; and as you look back, it's difficult to put time sequences

13     and accurate facts together, didn't you?

14        A.   Actually, by the nature of my work and my training, it is fairly

15     straightforward to put times to events that occur chronologically, as

16     I've done in my journal.

17        Q.   Well, in your journal, sir, just looking at the 4th, you don't

18     make any note of actually seeing anything, such as things being hit by

19     artillery or things of that nature, do you?

20        A.   In my journal, if you see midway:  "At about 0730, it showed

21     down.  We would hear the round whistle in and watch depending on the

22     whistle.  If it was close, we would hide down.  If it was not, we would

23     stand and watch.  I actually have one, possibly two, photos of rounds

24     going into Knin."

25             And then, when you go down further:  "Around supper, the shelling

Page 3822

 1     was very intermittent.  Serbs in the afternoon were putting good

 2     counter-battery fire in the hills to the north.  While I was watching the

 3     town being intermittently shelled in the afternoon with binoculars, I

 4     clearly saw their counter-battery fire on the HV guns in the hill that

 5     was previously shown on a photograph."

 6        Q.   Captain, between the 5.00 a.m., when the shelling started and

 7     your -- well, let me withdraw that.

 8             You noted during the course of your direct examination that

 9     hundreds, hundreds, and hundreds of rounds fell on Knin, between the

10     5.00 a.m., when shelling began, and the 7.30, when you say it slowed

11     down, how many rounds did you estimate fell?

12        A.   Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.

13        Q.   Can you give us a ballpark figure, sir?

14        A.   I can't.  Depending on the very first at 5.00, as I said, there

15     was two 30 minute periods where the intensity was quite incredible.

16     There would be lulls.  The lull got me up to my other bunker.  It would

17     go intermittent, so that we could get up and stand and watch, versus

18     being down in the bunk.  But, literally, hundreds and hundreds and

19     hundreds of rounds.

20        Q.   You say it is -- you noted in your report that, at 7.30, it

21     slowed down; and then four lines down:  "Shelling continued for most of

22     the morning."

23             When did it begin again?

24        A.   According to my journal, it appears that it -- it didn't stop.

25     As you see after the O group:  "At 1400, shelling continued."  My

Page 3823

 1     recollection is after the heavy, heavy part that came in the initial

 2     attack to mid morning, that it was as we described yesterday, harassment

 3     fire, up until later in the evening around the time that we brought the

 4     refugees in, when in then picked up again, to the second highest rate of

 5     the day.

 6        Q.   So is it your testimony that heavy shelling went from 0500 to mid

 7     morning?

 8        A.   Approximately.

 9        Q.   And is that where you heard the hundreds and hundreds and

10     hundreds of rounds?

11        A.   In the very first 90 minutes of the attack, there was years

12     easily hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of rounds at that point and

13     that bombardment.

14        Q.   Now, Captain, at that point, by mid morning, I guess we're

15     talking about 10.30 or so, are you approaching shelling that is

16     approaching a thousand rounds coming into Knin?

17        A.   I couldn't speculate.

18        Q.   Let me show you Exhibit P151 -- excuse me, P101.

19             MR. KEHOE:  If I can just blow up the first paragraph.

20        Q.   This is a sitrep, an UNMO sitrep of 4th of August, 1205 hours:

21     "HV shelling on Knin started at on the 4th at 0500 August and continued

22     up to 1040.  Total around 350 to 400 artillery MBRL rocket fire were

23     heard by the UNMOs in Knin."

24             Is that number correct, Captain?

25        A.   I have no idea.

Page 3824

 1        Q.   Is that number consistent with your estimates when you told us

 2     hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of rounds?

 3        A.   I would believe that's low.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, may I have two minutes, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7             Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

 8     courtroom.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This also gives me an opportunity to -- well, it

12     gives me an opportunity to inform you about the results of our inquiries.

13             We can have another one hour and a half this afternoon.  The OTP

14     took one hour and 45 minutes; Mr. Kay has used 42 minutes; Mr. Kehoe,

15     until now, you have used 45 minutes, net time.  Of course, we still have

16     sometime left.  I had said, this morning, we have another approximately

17     one hour and a half.

18             Mr. Kehoe, you're --

19                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, if you can agree during the next break

21     with other counsel how you'd use your time resulting in how much time you

22     would need, Mr. Russo, for re-examination as matters stand now.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, at this point, I have nothing.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then at least there's some time left if there

25     are any questions from the Bench.  So how to divide the time still avail

Page 3825

 1     for this morning and, let us say, 45 minutes to one hour this afternoon,

 2     if you could agree on that, the Chamber would like to hear.  If you can't

 3     agree, of course, the Chamber will have to allocate the time, as

 4     appropriate.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please also try to focus on the questions and try to

 7     avoid reputation.  I mean, if the witness says "tanks, T-54," and then if

 8     your next question is, "Is T-54 a tank," then that really doesn't assist.

 9             If you spend a lot of time on a BMP-2, whether it is stuck in a

10     ground, that's really not of great assistance.  If, exceptionally, a

11     ferry-boat would be found up on a mountain, then, of course, you should

12     ask bout that.  But, usually, we accept ferry-boats to be in the water

13     and to find other things on top of the mountains.  That's similar for

14     BMP-2s.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. KEHOE:

18        Q.   Captain, you noted, during the course of your direct, that you

19     had gone up to the helipad to view matters.  When you were up there, were

20     you up there with anyone else?

21        A.   I don't recall the helipad.  My accommodation and my bunker was

22     just below the helipad.

23        Q.   Did you see anybody viewing the shelling Knin from the helipad?

24        A.   Not to my recollection.

25        Q.   Would you have seen them had they had been there?

Page 3826

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   May I turn our attention to 297 -- P297, excuse me.

 3             Captain, this is the photograph that was admitted into evidence

 4     in the Prosecution's questioning.  This is a ridge where you saw the

 5     puffs of smoke, is it not, the circle up on that ridge.

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   And in this area, this was the ARSK firing on to an HV position,

 8     wasn't it?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And did this take place on the 4th?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   During the course of your work in HQ Sector South, did you learn

13     of other reports, such as from the Kenyan battalion, that they had also

14     reported the ARSK firing on HV positions?

15        A.   I didn't learn about what had happened with the other battalions.

16        Q.   Captain, during the course of your direct testimony, you

17     mentioned that you saw air-bursts in the -- on the 4th when the artillery

18     attack was taking place.

19             Captain, are you certain that the HV had the capability to send

20     an artillery piece in there that had air-burst?

21        A.   The HV had artillery.  An air-burst is simply the turn of a fuse

22     on an artillery round.  It's as simple as that.

23        Q.   Well, are you sure that they had that capability?

24        A.   I was not aware of what their capability was.  At that time, at

25     that location, I saw air-bursts over the town of Knin.

Page 3827

 1        Q.   Now, going back to the photograph that is on the screen, can you

 2     tell us where the ARSK was firing from?

 3        A.   I have no idea.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Could you bring up D131; and it is page 5, 1D17-0394.

 5        Q.   Now, this was a Defence exhibit that was shown to you by the

 6     Prosecutor.  Looking at this map, can you identify the fact that you told

 7     the Office of the Prosecutor that the shelling that we saw on the screen

 8     came from position C1?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

10             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry.  I believe that is not correct.  I believe

11     the information provided regarding that site was that this was the

12     location of the counter-battery radar, which the witness put in his

13     statement.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please literally refer to what --

15             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. Hill, was shown D131 and asked to locate the area

16     where you saw the counter-battery radar.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us --

18             MR. KEHOE:  This is the supplemental statement.

19             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, this is the supplemental information

20     sheet that came out of the proofing session.  It has not been submitted

21     to the Court.

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   My apologies, Captain.  That was a radar station, but you didn't

24     see the point of where the ARSK was shooting from?

25        A.   No, I did not.

Page 3828

 1        Q.   Now, you noted for us that on the evening of the 4th, a group of

 2     Serbs came to the base.  Is that right?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   And as time progressed -- as time progressed, Captain, moving

 5     from the 4th to the 5th, the HV soldiers, after they came into Knin, also

 6     brought Serbs to the HV UN Sector South base because those people wanted

 7     to come there, didn't they?

 8        A.   The Serbs wanted to come?

 9        Q.   Well, let's start first things first.  After the HV came into

10     Knin on the 5th, did they not bring Serbs to the UN base that wanted to

11     come to the base?

12        A.   When the soldiers and the tanks arrived, I believe, at noon on

13     that day, the 5th, with the HV, they had no refugees with them.  My

14     understanding is around later in the afternoon, they started to

15     accumulate at our gate, got larger and larger, until approximately 2300,

16     when there was over 300.

17        Q.   And --

18        A.   The only individual I can recall coming to the gate with an HV

19     soldier is when the SIS soldier brought a Serb woman from downtown Knin.

20        Q.   Let us go to P301.

21             This is your report; and if we can go to page 4, that should be

22     paragraph L.

23             MR. KEHOE:  If we could blow up paragraph L.

24        Q.   If we look at that second sentence, obviously.  This is on the

25     5th of August.  It says:  "During the day, the HV soldiers delivered

Page 3829

 1     numerous refugees to Sector South HQ bringing the total of refugees to

 2     about 700."

 3             So these soldiers, who informed you that they were going to kill

 4     Serbs, were, in fact, on that same day, bringing Serbs to the

 5     Sector South headquarters, weren't they?

 6        A.   I stand corrected that the HV were bringing them.  And the group

 7     of soldiers with the tanks, who told me they would kill all the Serbs, do

 8     not, to my recollection -- or they did not, at that point, have any

 9     refugees with them.

10        Q.   Let us turn your attention to 65 ter 4003.

11             If we go to this, this is a report from Peggy Hicks.  I believe

12     that is from Human Rights on 6th August, talking about interviews with

13     displaced persons.

14             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go down to the bottom paragraph.

15        Q.   She's talking about these interviews in the bottom paragraph, the

16     last sentence:  "These interviews do indicate, however, that at least

17     some Croatian soldiers had been given clear and effective instructions to

18     treat civilians in an appropriate manner."

19             Was that your experience, Captain?

20        A.   I couldn't comment on that.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we will offer 65 ter 4003

22     into evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

24             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 3830

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D272.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D227 is admitted into evidence.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Now, Captain, after being up all day, you didn't actually go to

 6     sleep until 2.30 on the morning of the 5th, right?  Do you recall that?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   And the 5th is the day that you talked about the shelling outside

 9     of the Knin base.

10             MR. KEHOE:  And if we can go to D72, first slide.

11        Q.   Now, you can orient yourself there for one moment, sir.

12             Are you with me there, sir?

13        A.   I am.

14        Q.   Is that noted that that circled area is the approximate place

15     where that shell hit and those bodies were?

16        A.   The bodies were up that road.  The shell had hit more closer to

17     the base along that road in front of the base.

18        Q.   And using that general circle, is that where, after the bodies

19     were bagged, they were put?

20        A.   I don't know where they were originally put.  But if you see the

21     road coming up by the yellow, that goes up a hill beside our camp.

22     Whenever I saw the bodies, the bags were up near the top of that hill.

23        Q.   Now, if you can --

24             MR. KEHOE:  And I believe, Your Honour, with a marker, he can

25     mark this location, or we can just use this as a separate exhibit.

Page 3831

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we can use that.  For me, it is unclear in

 2     which direction it goes up the hill.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Likewise, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Usher, could you please assist the

 5     witness.

 6             You'll get a pen and you can mark where you -- at least if is on

 7     this photograph, you can mark where you saw this.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I believe that is where the round hit.  This

 9     road goes up a hill beside our camp.  There is a hill approximately here

10     or where a road goes in.  The bodies would be up near that point, as

11     you're looking at the diagram, the left side of the road.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We should tender this.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, if we could have that marked.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No further markings needed.

15             Mr. Russo, no objections.

16             Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D273, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D273, aerial photograph marked by the witness, is

19     admitted into evidence.

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Hill, you noted for us, in the course of your

22     testimony --

23             MR. KEHOE:  And this is yesterday's transcript at page 3749,

24     beginning on line 25, Your Honours, going up to the following page, which

25     would be 3750.

Page 3832

 1        Q.   It notes -- and we're talking about these bodies, Captain.  They

 2     were bagged --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, again, you amaze me, that after 3749, the

 4     next page is 3750 is totally superfluous.  Try to focus.

 5             MR. KEHOE:

 6        Q.   They were bagged in the black body-bags that we had and put by

 7     the side of the road, across from the camp, on a road leading upwards out

 8     of Knin."

 9              "I was told that HV, when they were martialing to go into Knin

10     for the last night, fired AKs into the bodies after opening the bags, and

11     that urinated and defecated on the bodies.  At a later date, the bodies

12     were there for quite some time.  I recall seeing them with the bags open,

13     and one body in particular had been -- had feces on the body and the body

14     shot, even though the bodies died or the cause of death was the artillery

15     round."

16             And this line, sir, on 5, "the bodies were there for quite some

17     time."  Now, how long were those body there is on the side of the road?

18        A.   Several days.

19        Q.   And when you note here, "I recall seeing them with the bags

20     opened, and one body in particular had been -- had feces on it," when did

21     you observe that?

22        A.   During my -- during one of my trips to get out of Knin, when they

23     would stop me go into town, my way out to the frontier was up this road.

24     So, at any time that I would drive up that road over the next several

25     days, the bodies would be there.

Page 3833

 1        Q.   And, sir, when was the first time that you went out up that road,

 2     went out and turned left and went up that road?

 3        A.   I would like to refresh to my notes.  I believe it is the 8th of

 4     August.

 5        Q.   Please do.

 6        A.   May I see the diagram with the colour coding of the routes?  That

 7     will tell me exactly when I went up that road.

 8        Q.   Certainly.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  I think the map, if I may, is --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the one when yellow was to the south --

11             MR. KEHOE:  I think that is P307, Your Honour.

12             Is that right, Mr. Russo, P307?

13             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please continue.  Meanwhile, we'll find it.

15             MR. KEHOE:  I'm going to move to another, if I could just get

16     this.

17             THE WITNESS:  It would have been on the 8th of August when I was

18     denied access to Knin and then took the road to Drnis and Pakovo Selo.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   So the date that you saw them, that you referred to it in the

21     transcript, was 8 August.  Is that right?

22        A.   To my recollection.

23        Q.   Let me show you 65 ter 168.

24             Sir, this is a transcript of your diary.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Then if we can go to the next page and blow up the

Page 3834

 1     6th at the bottom.

 2        Q.   About halfway through that paragraph, you are discussing the

 3     going into town with the SIS officer, and you note:  "The damage was not

 4     as bad as I thought considering thousands of rounds.  Not one body, even

 5     the ones from the gate, were gone?"

 6             Now, that's what you wrote on the 6th of August of 1995.

 7        A.   Mm-hm.

 8        Q.   And you wrote that the bodies were gone, and they weren't there

 9     on the 8th, were they?

10        A.   The bodies were moved up the hill.  When you come out of the

11     camp, you come to a T-intersection and you turn right to go into Knin.

12     You do not see, up the hill, you don't see anything.  There's two

13     different directions here, one is going to the road to Drnis and one is

14     directly into the town of Knin.

15        Q.   Sir, I believe, during the course of your direct examination, we

16     admitted P291, 292, 293, and 294, your four statements which you said

17     accurately depicted your prior testimony.  And in any of those statements

18     that you reviewed prior to your direct examination, do you mention at any

19     point that bodies were on the side of the road and that they had been

20     defecated on and urinated on, at any point in all of this testimony?

21        A.   I don't recall.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I think the Chamber gave as guidance that

23     if something is not in the statement, then it is not in the statement.

24     And if there any question about that, to discuss it with other counsel

25     and then just put to the witness, "We do not find any reference to that

Page 3835

 1     in your statement," instead of going first that they were admitted and;

 2     second ...

 3             Let's move on.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine, Judge.

 5        Q.   Is it anywhere in the diary that you have that these bodies were

 6     either defecated upon or urinated upon I'm talking about not the

 7     statements; I'm talking about the diary.

 8             You can gladly flip the page.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go another page on that diary to the 8th of

10     August.

11        Q.   I will give you the opportunity to review that?

12             MR. KEHOE:  If we can flip the page on the screen.

13             THE WITNESS:  Scroll forward.

14             MR. KEHOE:

15        Q.   If we can go on to the next page, continuing on, on the 8th.

16        A.   I don't see anything in there about the bodies on the 8th.

17        Q.   Were these bodies driven over with tanks?

18        A.   I don't recall.  I don't remember seeing that.

19        Q.   Now -- excuse me.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I don't know if this is a time if you

22     want to take a break, or if you want me to --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If this is a suitable time for you, we can

24     take a break now.

25             We resume at five minutes to 1.00.

Page 3836

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Staying with incident on the 5th with these mortar attack, when

 6     the bodies were ultimately looked at by the HV personnel, I am reading

 7     from exhibit 301, paragraph J:  "One rocket launcher, three

 8     hand-grenades, and rifles were taken from the individuals."

 9             Do you recall that, Captain?

10        A.   You're referring to the weapons taken off of the dead ARSK from

11     the artillery round?

12        Q.   Yes, sir.

13        A.   Yes.  They were taken into my custody.

14        Q.   If we can turn our attention to the incident at the individual

15     soldiers coming to the gate that you mentioned on the 5th, about midday.

16             MR. KEHOE:  And if we can go to, again, the item on the screen

17     and if we can turn back several pages to the 5th, the second paragraph on

18     the 5th.

19        Q.   Captain, you describe these soldiers as good guys.  Do you see

20     that?

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   And you noted for us yesterday that these individuals, and I'm

23     talking about page 3751, on line 4, in your conversation with the

24     individual that spoke English.  "I asked him because he spoke good

25     English what he was doing there."

Page 3837

 1             You testified:  "He said he had come back to fight against the

 2     Serbs and that he had been waiting for this since 1945."

 3        A.   Mm-hm.

 4        Q.   "He was approximately 22 years old."

 5             Turning back to your statement in the same paragraph -- or your

 6     diary, you note in that paragraph:  "They said they had been waiting for

 7     this for four years."

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now four years is back to 1991 when the ARSK or the RSK, if you

11     will, drove the Croats out of the Krajina, isn't it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And there's no entry in here about them waiting for this since

14     1945.  Would you agree with me on that?

15        A.   The individual, who was to my left, was one of the two that spoke

16     English who was Canadian, and he was the one that said that he said he

17     had been waiting from 1945.  It is not in relation to what this says

18     about the troops waiting since 1991.

19        Q.   The diary speaks for itself.

20             Let us move on.  You noted, during the course of your testimony

21     yesterday, that later in the day, on the 5th, that you were stopped as

22     you were going into the city - this is 3751, going on to 3752 at the

23     bottom - line 24:  "I said we were going downtown --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe what seems to be a comment, "the diary

25     speaks for itself," nevertheless triggers for me to seek clarification

Page 3838

 1     from the witness.

 2             In your statement, you said something about a person who had been

 3     waiting since 1945.  Now, in your diary, we find "they said they had been

 4     waiting for this for four years."

 5             Do I understand you well that there was one person talking about

 6     since 1945, and that others talking to you said that they, referring to a

 7     group rather than to one single person, that they had been waiting for

 8     four years for this to happen.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So what now speaks for itself is not clear to me,

11     Mr. Kehoe.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  I will clarify --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I understand matters to be now that the diary

15     speaks for itself because it is talking about the plural, "they";

16     whereas, the statement of the witness is referring to one single person.

17             MR. KEHOE:  And my question at the time, and I refer back to my

18     statement of it speaks for itself, there is no reference in the diary

19     about 1945.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  Well, that is always the problem with

21     comments.  That we are not as certain about what he is actually aiming

22     at; and perhaps, of course, then that goes without saying that perhaps it

23     should have gone without saying.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  At this time, we will offer 65

Page 3839

 1     ter 168 into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection, Mr. Russo?

 3             Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D274, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D274 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  And if I may, Judge, the actual written part of this

 8     diary, for which was typed up by the Office of the Prosecutor, is

 9     1D26-0017 to 1D26-0043; and we will, likewise, offer that into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, no objection?

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D275.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D275 is admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. KEHOE:

16        Q.   Captain, going back to the comments or testimony that I was

17     reading, about not being permitted to go into town, this is on your

18     testimony of 3751, at the bottom of the page -- on page -- line 24:  "I

19     said we were going into town.  We were UN.  We were trying to find

20     refugees.  He refused.  He said it was forbidden.  He put tanks across

21     the road, he was angry, and he ordered us back to camp."

22             Captain, approximately what time of day was that?

23             I note on line 18 you said "around supper time."  Do you recall

24     the time of day?

25        A.   Could I have exact the page in statement 2, please?

Page 3840

 1        Q.   It is actually your testimony, sir, yesterday, from your

 2     testimony yesterday.

 3        A.   When I say "supper time," 1800, 1900, supper time.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, did you know prior to that time there had been ARSK

 5     shelling into Knin from Strmica?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Let me just cover a few things about this.  By the way, during

 8     the course of your testimony this morning, you noted that you found some

 9     rocket tubes.  Do you know who fired those rockets?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you know when they were fired?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   So, basically, the only thing you can tell us is that you found

14     those in and around what was General Forand's accommodation?

15        A.   On the front lawn.

16        Q.   Now, as we conclude -- as we conclude the 5th, I turn back to

17     301, P301, paragraph N, which is page 5 of that document.

18             In paragraph N, I think the page before this, this is on the 5th,

19     at about 2300:  "And for the rest of the night, small arms -- SA firing

20     and small arms firing, tank fire, and mortar shells were heard in Knin.

21     It seems that HV and ARSK were still fighting in that area."

22             That is from your report as of the end of the 5th.

23             Now, going into the 6th, the 6th morning was when this SIS

24     officer came with the Serb woman.  Is that right?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 3841

 1        Q.   And the Serb officer invited you come down and ride around with

 2     him -- excuse me, SIS officer invited you to come down and ride around

 3     with him, didn't he?

 4        A.   He invited me to go to the Serb lady's house downtown in Knin.  I

 5     asked after that if I could tour the town, and he obliged.

 6        Q.   And when you went through this town at this time, you observed

 7     the town, didn't you?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And if we could turn on this document that's on the screen back

10     to paragraph O, the prior page, in the middle of that paragraph, you note

11     that:  "During the patrol, they observed that the damages to the town

12     were not as extensive as anticipated."

13             Do you see that in that paragraph?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   And, in fact, there was very minimal damage to the town, wasn't

16     there?

17        A.   There was more than minimal.  Considering the amount of rounds

18     that went into the town and my lack of experience in what a town would

19     like after a shelling like that, I was surprised at how little damage

20     there was in expectation.

21        Q.   When you went around that town, you concluded that the shelling

22     by the HV had been very accurate, didn't you?

23        A.   Please explain.

24        Q.   Let me just go to page of your -- P92 [sic] statement, let's go

25     to 577736.

Page 3842

 1        A.   77 -- last three, please?

 2        Q.   736, Captain, line 15:  "I believe they knew exactly what they

 3     were doing and they were extremely accurate."

 4             Line 23:  "I thought they were extremely accurate."

 5             So, while you were going through here, Captain, you concluded

 6     that the HV artillery had been extremely accurate, didn't you?

 7        A.   If I can draw you to line 17 of that page, 36, I said:  "I

 8     concluded of their accuracy, because of amount of rounds expended on the

 9     town, only one hit our wire, and not one hit our camp," which in mind I

10     thought was very accurate shooting for not killing any UN.

11        Q.   The fact of the matter, sir, is that you expected the town to be

12     flattened and you didn't see much damage.  Isn't that right?

13        A.   I expected more damage than I saw; certainly not flattened.

14        Q.   Let me draw your attention to P291, page 6.  It is P291.  It's

15     your statement of 23 August 1996, page 6 at the top.

16             MR. KEHOE:  If we can just go blow that up first top paragraph.

17        Q.   Third sentence:  "I expected to the town to be flattened; but as

18     a matter of fact, I didn't see much damage."

19        A.   I stand corrected.

20             MR. KEHOE:  May I have one moment, Judge.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, may I take it that your recent agreement

23     with other counsel --

24             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Yes, Your Honour.  I'm

25     going to attempt to.

Page 3843

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, in fact, sir, as you were going through here -- be that as

 4     it may, if I can just go to a subject that you brought on direct and turn

 5     to 299.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  If we can bring that up on the screen -- P299, I'm

 7     sorry.

 8        Q.   Now this particular photograph is a photograph, I believe, that

 9     you stated was a photograph you took of shelling damage in Knin.  Is that

10     correct?

11        A.   That's correct.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. Usher, could you put P62 on the screen, please.

13        Q.   Sorry for the wait, Captain.  I'm just waiting for it to come up

14     on the screen.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. KEHOE:  I was just expressing my apologies to the captain

17     while it was coming up on the screen.

18        Q.   Captain, with the assistance of the usher, could you take your

19     marker and place on this map where in Knin the photograph depicted in 299

20     was.

21        A.   I have no idea.  Somewhere in the town.

22        Q.   Now, when you went through that town on the 6th, was the town

23     still burning from the 4th, or was it burning at all?

24        A.   Yes.  Individual houses were burning.  And down along the main

25     road prior to getting to the parliament, there was six -- approximately

Page 3844

 1     six very, very large stores, huge, about two to three storeys.  That

 2     entire part was burning and then odd houses -- the POL facility was

 3     burning throughout -- and odd houses throughout the entire town as we

 4     drove around.

 5        Q.   And was there burning that you observe that came from the 4th and

 6     the 5th shelling?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Let me show you a video, if I may, if I can show you 1D26-0059

 9     from HTV of the 5th of August.  Are you familiar with this position up at

10     the fortress?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. KEHOE:  And, Your Honour, there is no audio on this.  It is

13     just a video, itself, from HTV on the 5th.

14                           [Videotape played]

15             MR. KEHOE:  If we can just stop right there.

16        Q.   That is the street you were talking about.  You were saying you

17     saw there was burning from the 4th and 5th on that street?

18        A.   Oh, yes.  On the right-hand side, which would be the side closest

19     to where the soccer field is.

20        Q.   So if we look at this in concert with your testimony, the

21     shelling took place after this that caused burning in this photograph

22     that is not observable as we speak.  Is that right?

23        A.   Could you say that again, please.

24        Q.   Well, I mean, this photograph --

25             MR. KEHOE:  If we can complete the video.

Page 3845

 1                           [Videotape played]

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   The area in the video that you saw was -- there was no evidence

 4     of it burning, was there?

 5        A.   None.

 6        Q.   So by the time this was taken on the 5th, the burning on that

 7     street was gone, wasn't it?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, there's an assumption in your question,

 9     which I'm afraid the witness cannot testify to.

10             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We see a date of the 5th of August which could be

12     the day on which it was broadcast.  It could be the day on which it was

13     filmed.  I just don't know, and I take it that the witness, without

14     further information, might not know as well.

15             MR. KEHOE:  I will tell you from the HTV archives, Your Honour,

16     this is the day it was filmed, 5th of August.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if that is not dispute, then I take it we can

18     accept that.  If not, then the only thing the Chamber knows at this

19     moment is that the picture shows a date of the 5th of August.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we'll offer this video into evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

24             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.

Page 3846

 1             Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D276.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D276 is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Now, the burning, Captain, that you observed down the main

 6     street, this was in the centre of town?

 7        A.   Prior to the parliament buildings.

 8        Q.   And did the burning continue from the 6th into the 7th?

 9        A.   At that location?

10        Q.   Yes, sir.

11        A.   I believe that those buildings burned for several days,

12     smouldering.

13        Q.   Let me show you 1D12-0016, page 10.

14             MR. KEHOE:  It's not coming up on my screen, Judge.  It is on

15     ours.  Thank you.

16        Q.   It was a cable, Captain, of the 7th of August, 1995, third

17     paragraph down.  From the 7th:  "Several houses on the outskirts of the

18     city were still burning, but none were on fire in the city proper?"

19             The houses that you are talking about are in downtown Knin,

20     aren't they, by the parliament building?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we'll offer this document into evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

24             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 3847

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D277, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D277 is admitted into evidence.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Changing subjects, Captain, to Ivan Juric.  You noted in your

 6     1999 statement, which I'll get the right exhibit number as 293, on

 7     page 3, that Mr. Juric reported directly to military headquarters in

 8     Zagreb.

 9             That's at the bottom of that page, if you want it reference

10     yourself.

11        A.   Which statement is that?

12        Q.   The 1999 statement, sir.  It's the November 1st, 1999 statement.

13        A.   Page 3.

14        Q.   Yes, sir.

15             You see that, sir?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, by the way, did Mr. Juric didn't speak English, did he?

18        A.   Some.  We could communicate.

19        Q.   Did you communicate through a translator?

20        A.   Sometimes.

21        Q.   In this paragraph, you note that he reported directly to military

22     headquarters in Zagreb, right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Above that, you note that it did not appear to you that he was

25     subordinate to anyone in Knin.  Is that accurate?

Page 3848

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then if you turn to your 1997 statement, it notes that --

 3     It's 577679.  Go to 679, sir.

 4        A.   Line, please?

 5        Q.   22.  You note that:  "So later it become apparent that Major

 6     Juric was running virtually everything in the sector."

 7             Is that accurate as well?

 8        A.   When I mean everything, from a police point of view?

 9        Q.   Were a police point of view?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You, likewise, say, on line 29 going to line 32:  "It was just --

12     I don't know if he actually was a major, but he certainly was controlling

13     it all in the sense that he had more authority over the army.  If he was

14     there and the army was there, it was done his way.  I saw him talking

15     down officers that I'd seen before.  The bottom line is that, if he's

16     there, it's his way."

17             Is that accurate as well?

18        A.   In the one specific instance where he had -- it seemed like he

19     had an exchange with an HV major who was army, the HV major left not with

20     what he had wanted and was doing whatever Ivan had told him to do.  That

21     was the major that did not want to let me through Pakovo Selo with the

22     Kenyans the day before.

23        Q.   Well, you also had the experience at the Akashi meeting where he

24     was telling the colonel what to do?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3849

 1        Q.   Now, you note at --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, at 683, line 20:  "Juric was the guy.  He

 3     was the guy in Knin and Sector South, period.  And I don't believe for a

 4     second anything happened without his knowledge or approval."

 5             That's accurate as well?

 6        A.   In the connotation of police operations.

 7        Q.   Now, in that context, sir, if we turn our attention to some of

 8     the latter pages in this document, and if we turn to 7741 and 7742, in

 9     line 22, you were asked whether Juric could have stopped looting and

10     burning.

11             Line 22:  "So to say he could have stopped it, yes, I guess he

12     could have.  But did he know about it?  Did he have the resources to stop

13     it?  If you tell him that it is his job to control the sector and to go

14     and eliminate the remnants of the Serbs in the hills in Bosnia, and then

15     you say and also to stop looting, well, if you only have so many men, you

16     have to prior advertise your job.

17             "And based on the list I just gave you, I would put looting at

18     the bottom of the list.  So when my commander asked me, 'How are things

19     going?'  'There's no more resistance in the hills, sir, and I have

20     completely controlled the sector.'  That's how it would work."

21             "Question:  Did Juric know about the arson and the looting?"

22             Your answer:  "Well, he drove around just like me, so he saw it.

23     He saw it.  Well, he had to.  He drove to almost every place I drove, as

24     I have related.  I met him in places.  He saw Kistanje.  He saw other

25     places.  He was there, so he saw exactly what I saw.  He was there, so he

Page 3850

 1     saw exactly what I saw."

 2             "Did you talking about burning and looting with Juric?"

 3             "No, it was obvious.  He knew and I knew."

 4             So at the time, Captain -- let me slow down a bit.

 5             Did you conclude, one, that Major Juric didn't have enough men to

 6     stop the looting and the burning?

 7        A.   I didn't know that.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry?

 9        A.   I didn't know that.

10        Q.   You did conclude, however, that he must have known about it?

11        A.   About the looting?

12        Q.   The looting and the burning.

13        A.   Absolutely.

14        Q.   Now just going through there quickly, sir, the looting and the

15     burning, I mean, you note an instance in your report at - let me see -

16     661 at line 23.  This is your statement of P292.

17        A.   Line 23?

18        Q.   At 23, you say:  "Actually, when we got there, there was a guy

19     steel ago car, and a SIS guy told him basically to get out of the area

20     and the guy left right away."

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   So, I mean, did that indicate to you that this soldier was, in

23     fact, doing something that he wasn't supposed to be doing per military

24     regulations?

25        A.   You're talking about the soldier stealing the car?

Page 3851

 1        Q.   And the SIS officer telling him to stop doing it, and he left.

 2        A.   Right.

 3        Q.   Did it indicate to you that he was doing something that was

 4     outside of his military activities?

 5        A.   Hmm.  I don't know how to respond.  He saw him doing something he

 6     told him to stop, get out.

 7        Q.   I'm not talking about the SIS guy doing something outside of his

 8     military activities.  I'm talking about the person stealing the car, the

 9     soldier?

10        A.   I have no knowledge if taking that car was outside of the realm

11     that he was doing.

12        Q.   You noted for us, in your proofing statement, that while this

13     looting was going on, that it was not done according to any particular

14     plan.  Is that accurate?

15        A.   From what I saw, yes.

16        Q.   By the way, sir, can I --

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. KEHOE:

19        Q.   In the spirit of moving through, you don't know what the HV

20     response was to combat this looting, do you?  You don't know what steps

21     they took?

22        A.   No.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we will offer, up across the bar, a

24     series of documents on that score.  We will just move it.  We will

25     discuss it with Counsel for the Prosecution, but in the interest of time,

Page 3852

 1     we will just move on.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One of the advantages from tendering from the

 3     bar table is that you can do it at any time.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  Sometimes, it is more logical than others.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  I take it that you follow the logic.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  May I bring up D66.

 8        Q.   Now, if I could just turn your attention, this is a cable from

 9     the 14th of August.

10             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go do downtown Knin, the bottom of that

11     page.

12        Q.   It talks about the shelling, and it says:  "A few downtown

13     buildings and residential areas show shell damage."

14             I'm interested in the, "However."

15              "However, virtually every shop window in downtown Knin had been

16     deployed.  There were visible signs of lotting, but a great deal of

17     merchandise remained."

18              "The most obviously looted stores were clothing stores, and it

19     is quite possible that the clothing had been taken by departing residents

20     who had been departed with little opportunity to pack.  Police had

21     already been posted downtown to deter looting.  And the political officer

22     did not observe any looting activity, although the soldiers did appear to

23     have large quantities of beer at their disposal.  A guard was also posted

24     to guard the Serbian Orthodox church."

25             Was it your experience, Captain, that the looting ultimately

Page 3853

 1     stopped?

 2        A.   In Knin?

 3        Q.   In Knin?

 4        A.   Eventually.

 5        Q.   And -- excuse me, in Knin?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And would it have been approximately --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel, please.

 9             MR. KEHOE:

10        Q.   In your recollection, would it have been approximately the

11     14th/15th of August time-frame, if you recall?

12        A.   I don't recall.

13        Q.   Now, General Leslie testified.

14             MR. KEHOE:  This is 28 April, 2008, page 2189, lines 15 to 18.

15        Q.   Then he noted:  "And the initial troops which showed up at our

16     front gate didn't stay very long, and I can deduce why because they were

17     continuing the advance.  Those were front line troops continuing the

18     advance in pursuit of the retreats Serbs."

19             Do you agree with that, Captain, that the soldiers that initially

20     came to the UN camp on the 5th did not say very long but left to pursue

21     the Serbs going north?

22        A.   From what I observed, initially it was the Pumas, and they were

23     later replaced by the Tigers in Knin.

24        Q.   Let me -- excuse me?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Just a minute, Mr. Kehoe.

Page 3854

 1             Mr. Kehoe, in order to safe others time, in looking at the

 2     transcript of the 28th of April, page 2189, it appears on the 24th of

 3     April, in my system at least.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, I'm going to blame Mr. Misetic for that,

 6     because he is responsible for the day.  I'm kidding.

 7             I apologise, Judge.  I do believe the page reference is the same.

 8     I took it off the bottom.

 9        Q.   I apologise on the date, Captain.

10             Just going back to my initial question, though, do you agree that

11     those initial front line troops left Knin very quickly to go after the

12     Serbs after they had taken Knin?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, I want to just go through some of these photographs quickly

15     with you that went -- that you had discussed on the -- on the Prosecution

16     case.  Let's turn our attention to the 305 series, first.

17             While they are bringing this up, Captain, you noted for us that,

18     as you went up these roads, you saw and followed the path of the Serbs

19     who evacuated.  You saw tanks and other types of items, right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And when you -- and I don't have the transcript, but you

22     mentioned something about fighting and then moving?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Can you just explain that manoeuvre just a bit.

25        A.   Starting at the intersection with Otric, there was a huge

Page 3855

 1     ammunition dump, for lack of a better term, in a field; crates and

 2     crates, six, seven feet high.  And from there, you go north straight up

 3     the road, and what we would find is every three, 400 metres, every

 4     kilometre, there would be a big pile of ammunition by the side of the

 5     road.

 6             And as you saw in one picture, actually the rounds are laid out.

 7     So it appeared as if the Serbs, as they were going back, they were

 8     falling on to the ammunition, using the ammunition to fire, to fight, and

 9     continuing back as the Croats were pushing them.

10        Q.   Now, you, likewise, observe tanks, Serb tanks, that had been

11     abandoned and then were pointed back on the road?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did that indicate to you that they were fighting oncoming troops?

14        A.   Their muzzles were -- sorry.  Their muzzles were pointed towards

15     the direction the Serbs were advancing -- correction.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you complete your answer.  If need be,

17     Mr. Kehoe will repeat the question.

18             MR. KEHOE:

19        Q.   I think I asked:  Did it indicate that they were fighting

20     oncoming Croats, and I think -- you can correct it, Captain.

21        A.   The muzzles of the Serb tanks were pointing back down in the

22     direction the Croats were advancing.

23        Q.   I don't know the exact series, but I'm looking at 65 ter 4910

24     which is part of this series.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Now, it's coming up.  I think it is 4910, 65 ter.

Page 3856

 1     It's the one with the crushed car.

 2        Q.   Now, this particular crushed car, sir, you don't know who crushed

 3     this car, do you?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   If tanks were, in fact, retreating quickly, they would go over

 6     anything in their way, wouldn't they?

 7        A.   I couldn't speak to how they retreated.

 8        Q.   Well, the tanks that you found abandoned by the Serbs, you didn't

 9     find any T-80s or T-84s, did you?

10        A.   None.

11        Q.   What were they?

12        A.   T-34s.

13        Q.   Let me go to the series of photographs 1D26-0003, 1D26-0016.

14     These are a series of your photographs, Captain.

15             If we can go through these quickly, Captain, with the designation

16     06148001 on the photograph, that's an ARSK tank that you saw by the side

17     of the road?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Let's go to the next photograph --

20        A.   However, that was not on that evacuation route, that particular

21     tank.

22        Q.   When was that, sir?

23        A.   I don't recall.

24        Q.   The next one.  Tell us about that one, where that one was?

25        A.   I don't recall.

Page 3857

 1        Q.   Well, that's, again, an abandoned Serb --

 2        A.   T-34.

 3        Q.   -- that you took --  that was on one of these routes that you

 4     took?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Next one.  Tell us about that.

 7        A.   That was, I believe, the 95 Brigade, ARSK Brigade in Vrlika.  We

 8     went back, I can't recall the date, I believe it is the 12th.  Although

 9     I'm not sure on the date, we went back to check.  That's where I said

10     there was no damage, but we found this.  There was a wire across one of

11     the boxes that led to us believe that it was booby-trapped, so we left

12     and informed the HV engineers.

13        Q.   Now, we're talking about picture 06148004?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And this was ARSK material?

16        A.   Yes.  They're mines.

17        Q.   Next photograph, 0614800 --

18             MR. KEHOE:  Sorry, Judge.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, this picture will be the picture on

20     which -- I don't know whether you have any additional questions for this

21     afternoon or how you divided your time.  But it is now quarter to 2.00.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What could the Chamber expect as far as

24     cross-examination this afternoon is concerned?

25             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I will have one very, very brief area,

Page 3858

 1     and then I will turn it over to my colleague, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And you together will finish well within, let's say,

 3     an hour.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, before we adjourn, Mr. Kehoe, if I read a line

 6     to you:  "The Croatian public announcement to give security guarantees to

 7     the Serbs in the region was intended for Western propaganda purposes.

 8     The goal of the Croatians is ethnic cleanse the region, to make room for

 9     approximately one million Croatian refugees to set up."

10             Are you aware that this text is introduced into evidence this

11     morning by you.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  It was going to come in with

13     another Prosecution witness in, I think, not this week, but the next week

14     after that.  It is on their 92 ter list as an exhibit to be used, so the

15     answer is yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That is good because we get a few lines, and then we

17     get a 35-paged document.  Of course, that needs certainly further --

18             MR. KEHOE:  I read the document.  I was well aware of the

19     document what it was saying about that.  I just present to the Court my

20     knowledge that it was on the 92 ter list coming in another witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I hope you don't mind

22     that the Chamber asks these questions, in order not that it later --

23             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... No, no.  Judge, please.

24     Absolutely --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... has to find that, one way

Page 3859

 1     or the other, you or anyone was taken by surprise --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... the remainder of the

 4     content of that document.

 5             Mr. Hill, we would like to finish this afternoon, to have your

 6     testimony concluded.  The only possibility for us was to resume at a

 7     quarter past 4.00 this afternoon.  Since we were informed that you'd

 8     still be available, I take it that you'll join us again at quarter

 9     past 4.00.

10             In the meantime, same instruction as yesterday, not to speak with

11     anyone about your testimony whether already given or still to be given.

12             We adjourn and resume at a quarter past 4.00.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                            --- Break taken at 1.47 p.m.

15                            --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is not yet in.  Madam Usher, could you

17     please escort the witness.

18             MR. KEHOE:  May I address an issue, before the --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before the witness comes in.

20             Yes, Madam Usher, you're invited -- but there seems to be a

21     problem with some of our screens.

22                           [Technical Difficulty]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Our training as technicians benefits members

24     of this Chamber.

25             Yes, Madam Usher, could you already get the witness stand by,

Page 3860

 1     then, meanwhile, Mr. Kehoe will address the Chamber.

 2             Mr. Kehoe.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  It is an issue of 277, and I do

 4     thank Your Honour for bringing it to our attention.  It was the series of

 5     cables that were part of that 1D12 series.  We intended, I intended, to

 6     introduce the cable from the 7th and not the whole bundle being uploaded

 7     that is a subject of a 92 ter.

 8             So clarify Exhibit D277, we were offering specifically 1D12-0025

 9     to 1D2-0027, which were the three pages of that cable and Exhibit 7.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I take it that, because it was is

11     uploaded, all of it is in the system.  So, therefore, you should upload

12     then the relevant portion, so that the registrar can replace the earlier

13     uploaded full version by the three pages you wanted to tender.

14             Mr. Russo, that, I take it, does not meet any objections.

15             MR. RUSSO:  No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Kehoe, since we have a new registrar at

17     this very moment, and not the same as this morning, if you'd write down

18     exactly, on a piece of paper, what you want to be replaced by what, and

19     then also verify that we will verify them.

20             MR. KEHOE:  In the age of electronics, Your Honour, I'm still in

21     favour of paper.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that will not help you, Mr. Kehoe.

23             Madam Usher, is the witness ready to enter the courtroom.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Hill.

Page 3861

 1             I never know whether this is a new hearing or the continuation of

 2     the morning.  But if it is a new one, you are still bound, as would be

 3     the case in the other situation as well, by the solemn declaration you

 4     have given at the beginning of your evidence.

 5             Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 7             We can move back to the series of photographs that we were

 8     talking about this morning, and that series is the 1D26, starting at

 9     0003.  That is the photograph that we ended of on, which is a photograph

10     which the numbers 06148005.

11        Q.   Good afternoon, Captain Hill.  That's the next one.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   And this photo, what is this, sir, and can you plays this?

14        A.   T-34, on the route to Vrlika south.  The reason I took I took the

15     picture is you can see on the back deck, there is actually a round that

16     they loaded, and they left the tank.

17        Q.   And this is it an ARSK tank?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. KEHOE:  The next photograph with the designation 06148010.

20        Q.   What is that, sir?

21        A.   The same, ARSK T-34.

22        Q.   Can you give us a location?

23        A.   The one previous, no; this one is the same T-34 --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to be careful now because I think we moved

25     to another one now already, so let's turn back to the previous one.  Let

Page 3862

 1     the witness -- I saw another one.  I think your question was about the

 2     previous photograph loaded, Mr. Kehoe.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  I think the photograph that I was dealing with had

 4     the designation 06148010, and I think it is one before this, Judge.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That appears - at least I'm looking at Madam

 6     Usher's screen - to be the one, yes.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I believe that was on the road almost to Otric, on

 8     the evacuation route; T-34, again.

 9             MR. KEHOE:

10        Q.   Abandoned?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Next photo, ma'am.  Madam Usher, this is 0614183.

13             THE WITNESS:  Is it possible we've missed one?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Kehoe is asking for this one.  We had

15     temporarily another one on the screen, but we'll just forget about that

16     for a second.

17             THE WITNESS:  This on road north towards Otric, as you go towards

18     Donji Lapac.  It's ARSK.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Can we move to the next one --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hill you said:  "As you can see, it's pointed

21     towards the south."  I can't see that on the photograph.  So you must

22     have a specific reason why.

23             THE WITNESS:  The four tubes, Your Honour, are pointed directly

24     the way, looking right at you, it would fire right at you, the way that

25     is situating there.

Page 3863

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And you were coming from the south when you

 2     photographed this.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, going north.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             MR. KEHOE:

 6        Q.   This next one, sir --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I think we just did the one we were -- I think if we

 9     go back one more, please.  Okay.  06148019.

10             THE WITNESS:  Same ARSK T-34 on the evac route.

11             MR. KEHOE:  And if we go to the next photograph, 06148025.

12        Q.   Would that be the same?

13        A.   Same.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Let's go to the next photograph, 06148026.

15             THE WITNESS:  That is taking a look from behind the T-34 that you

16     just saw.  So we have driven pass it, north.  If you look south to the

17     way the Croats would say have been advancing up, you could see the

18     trailer.  That was somebody's trailer.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   So you could deduce from this that civilians were moving with

21     military?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Next photograph, 06148030.

24             THE WITNESS:  Is it possible to make it bigger?

25             MR. KEHOE:  Sure.

Page 3864

 1             THE WITNESS:  I can't tell if that is it APC or if it's a

 2     civilian vehicle.

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   Is this a photograph that you took, though, sir?

 5        A.   Mm-hm.  Along the route.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  We'll move to the next photograph, 06148031.

 7             THE WITNESS:  ARSK T-34, on the route.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Next photograph, 06148042.

 9             THE WITNESS:  That was not on the route.  We found that at a

10     later date up in Glina, when I was tasked on a security detail for the

11     Vojnic refugee camp.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   So this was not in the Sector South area?

14        A.   No.  Actually, I believe that was up in Sector North.

15        Q.   Sector North.

16             MR. KEHOE:  And the next photograph, 06148043.

17             THE WITNESS:  Those are Sagger anti-tank missiles.  They come in

18     a case.  They open the case, put them down.  They're Russian.  They were

19     in a field beside the road.  Again, I believe that was Sector North.

20             MR. KEHOE:  And the next photograph, 06148033.

21        Q.   Somewhat blurry.

22        A.   That is an ARSK ammunition truck on the evacuation route north to

23     Donji Lapac.  I believe there were several, but I was taking an example

24     of what an ammunition truck looks like when it's been hit, and it

25     explodes.

Page 3865

 1        Q.   Where was this?

 2        A.   On the evacuation route, north from Otric to Donji Lapac.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, ultimately, we will offer these in to

 4     evidence, pulling the two photographs that the witness just said were in

 5     Sector North, which are not in this time-frame -- or not in this

 6     geographical area.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could you upload the series of photographs,

 8     give a list of the ones that are remaining, so that a number can be

 9     assigned to those series.  Perhaps we could provisionally assign a

10     number.

11             Mr. Russo, I take it there is no objection.

12             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you already provisionally

14     assign a number until they have been finally uploaded into the system.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit number D278, marked for

16     identification, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We leave it then as that for the time being.  Could

18     I ask one clarifying question from the witness.

19             Do you have -- of any of these photographs, do you know when

20     tanks were abandoned, when ammunition lorries would have exploded?

21             THE WITNESS:  I believe it would have to have been prior to the

22     10th, because that was the first time I went by that area and didn't see

23     it.  Then, the next day, we actually went up and saw it, so it would be

24     prior to that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that it would have been prior to

Page 3866

 1     when you have seen it, but.

 2             THE WITNESS:  In the sense that I drove by, Your Honour, on the

 3     first day?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  What I'm interested in to know is when, for

 5     example, this last picture, whether you have any knowledge on whether

 6     this explosion of this ammunition truck took place on the 30th of July or

 7     the 8th of August, or dates when equipment was destroyed or abandoned.

 8             I see you nodding no.  That is not on the record.

 9             THE WITNESS:  I cannot tell you the exact date that this occurred

10     to vehicle or those tanks being abandoned.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   Just touching on a couple of issues that you raised this morning,

14     and going to your P292 statement of the 1997, at 7706, line 21.

15        A.   May I have my book, please?  Thank you.  Line 21?

16        Q.   Excuse me, line 22:  "On the way back ..."

17             Now this is, and I believe you clarify it on the next page, 7707,

18     on line 18, that of the six people, four were soldiers and two were

19     civilians.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And this orange truck, this VW flat bed, was picking these bodies

22     up?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You don't know what they were doing with them?

25        A.   No.

Page 3867

 1        Q.   Now, turning our attention to my last area that I would like to

 2     discuss with you.  And in your statement this morning, you noted that

 3     there were -- was a 4th Guards Brigade in Donji Lapac.  Do you recall

 4     that?

 5        A.   At the gas station south of the town, it was the last

 6     check-point.

 7        Q.   And let me ask if you can turn to -- did you have some confusion

 8     between the Pumas and the 4th Guards Brigade, sir?

 9        A.   In what sense?

10        Q.   Let me help you out here.  Let's go to 7685, line 15.

11        A.   Hmm.

12        Q.   In a discussion, there was a question:  "Was he brigade commander

13     for the Pumas or the Tigers?"

14             You note:  "He would have been, I believe, a Puma, which would be

15     4 Brigade.  I'm not sure."

16        A.   Hmm.

17        Q.   Now, was there some confusion in your mind on the difference

18     between the 4th Guards Brigade and the Pumas?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Let me take you to your statement of 7600 -- or 7661.  Let me get

21     you a line.  It's where you note at the top of the page, on line 1:

22     "With the brigades, one was Puma and one was Tiger."

23             So is it your testimony, sir, that in Knin in the early days,

24     both three brigades were in there:  The Pumas, Tigers, and 4th Brigade?

25        A.   Pumas, my understanding; and then Tigers; I don't know at which

Page 3868

 1     point 4 Brigade was there.

 2        Q.   Well, your testimony is that there were three brigades in there,

 3     come the 5th, 6th, 7th of August.

 4        A.   My recollection is after the Pumas left, then the Tigers were in.

 5     And I believe that the only time I had a contact with 4 Brigade, to my

 6     knowledge, was when I believed the individual who was going to shoot the

 7     Serb interpreter was the CO of the 4 Brigade.

 8        Q.   So, the answer to my question is, yes, you maintain that there

 9     are, in fact, three brigade there:  The 4, the Pumas, and the Tigers?

10        A.   At various times, yes.

11        Q.   Now, going to Donji Lapac, where you -- where you stated in your

12     testimony that the 4th Guards Brigade was there.

13             If we can go to your -- by the way, when you were up there in

14     Donji Lapac, and I believe this was on the 11th of August according to

15     your testimony, did these guys that were up there in this check-point

16     outside of Donji Lapac, did they have red berets on?

17        A.   I don't recall any head gear at all.

18        Q.   Let us turn to D74 -- excuse me, D274.  I apologise.  Page 7.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Now, if we can just blow up the 11th, not quite that

20     much, so he can read it.

21        Q.   The 11th is the date that you maintain that you went to

22     Donji Lapac.  Is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. KEHOE:  And I think it is a little tough to read, Madam

25     Usher, so if we can reduce that so that Captain Hill can read the edges

Page 3869

 1     there as well.

 2        Q.   Can you read that okay, Captain?

 3        A.   Yes, I can.

 4        Q.   Now, in that insert, there is no mention of the 4th Guards

 5     Brigade, is there?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, two things to tender quickly across the

 8     bar table.  The first is an order of active defence -- excuse me.  An

 9     order issued by General Cervenko, dated 6 August 1995.  And it is 65 ter

10     2008, 65 ter 2008.

11             If can you make that English one a little more readable, Madam

12     Usher, or smaller, so we can read it.  Can we read that -- sorry.

13             He sees different, okay.

14             The first part of this document, Your Honour, is an order that

15     establishes the operative border areas of responsibility of the Split

16     Military Districts, and they're established as set forth in paragraph A

17     between the Split Military District and the Gospic Military District.

18             They go along, Mala Alan, Gracac, Benje Selo [phoen], to Medjak,

19     to Una railway, all within the Split Military District, setting forth the

20     various areas of responsibility.  We have taken the liberty of mapping

21     that item, and that is in 1D26-0047.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hill, maps take a lot of time to be uploaded

23     into the system.

24             MR. KEHOE:  That, Your Honour, is a mapping pursuant to the HV

25     Main Staff along the plotted lines, consistent with the order that was

Page 3870

 1     just read which puts Srb in a Split Military District and Donji Lapac in

 2     the Gospic Military District.

 3             Your Honour, at this time, across the bar table, we will offer

 4     65 ter 2008, which is the order, and the map 1D26-0047.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 2008 will become Exhibit

 9     D279, and the map will become Exhibit D280.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D279 and D280 are admitted into evidence.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Next two items, quickly across the bar table, Your

12     Honour, are 65 ter 3216.

13             Your Honour, this is an order for the act of defence issued by

14     General Gotovina on 9 August 1995.  If we can turn to page 19 of 18

15     [sic], paragraph 5.4 -- page 19 of 18 pages, yes.  Page 9 of 18.  I

16     apologise.  Page 9 of 18.

17             If we can go towards the bottom of that page 5.4, where it says

18     "4 Guards Brigade."

19             Without reading the whole matter, it notes, on point 5.4:  "HV 4

20     Guards Brigade shall be withdrawn from the front lines in order to take a

21     break, to be replenished, and to get ready for further combat activities.

22     Split military district commander shall have in reserve one HV 4 Guards

23     Brigade infantry battalion reinforced by artillery-rocket and logistic

24     support.  The reserve battalion shall be stationed in the Knin barracks.

25     Basic task of the battalion shall be to intervene along the defence

Page 3871

 1     directions at risk in Otric, Operative Group area, OG, area of

 2     responsibility."

 3             This is signed by General Gotovina.

 4             His follow-up order on the last battalion is 65 ter 2311, again,

 5     across the bar table quickly.

 6             This is a daily operations report, an ops report from the next

 7     day, 10 August 1995.  If we can go to page 3 of 4, again signed by

 8     General Gotovina, which notes at the top of the page, "The 4th Guards

 9     Brigade."

10             "One battalion of the 4th Guards Brigade is in Knin as a reserve

11     for possible intervention."

12             Your Honour, at this time, across the bar table, we will offer

13     65 ter 3216 -- I'm sorry.  65 ter 3216 and 65 ter 2311.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo?

15             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 3216 will become Exhibit D281; and

18     2311 will become Exhibit D282.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D281 and D282 are admitted into evidence.

20             Mr. Kehoe, you do not introduce these exhibits through the

21     witness.  You do not put any questions.

22             MR. KEHOE:  I'm going to ask him a question based on --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we're waiting for that.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Hill, based on some of the information that we just tendered

Page 3872

 1     across the bar table, that you were in Donji Lapac and in a different

 2     Operational Group, and the orders of General Gotovina moving the

 3     4th Guards Brigade out, does that call into question your mind, sir, the

 4     fact that the whether, in fact, the 4th Guards Brigade was in and around

 5     Donji Lapac on August the 11th, 1995?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

10             Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hill, Mr. Kuzmanovic is counsel for Mr. Markac.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

15        Q.   Mr. Hill, in your testimony yesterday, at page 3747, lines 6

16     through 13, you were asked a question by Mr. Russo about the makeup of

17     the group of refugees that came into the camp on the 4th.  And I'll read

18     you the question and answer, and then have I some questions for you.

19             The question is at line 6:  "Mr. Hill, can you give the Court an

20     idea of what the makeup of what this group of refugees was?"

21             "Answer:  Women, children, old men, old ladies.  There were some

22     military-aged individuals in it, basically people that have come from

23     town.  They had some bags, some personal belongings as they came in.

24             "Question:  Did you find weapons on any of them?

25             "Answer:  Found one AK, one Russian grenade, and several knives

Page 3873

 1     on individuals that we searched."

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Mr. Registrar [sic], could you please call up

 3     3D00-0798.  Madam Registrar, sorry.

 4        Q.   Mr. Hill, in front of you is a letter on UN stationary dated

 5     August 12th, 1995, and that's UN stationary from your unit at UN HQ.

 6     Correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And that's your signature at the bottom, "J.  Hill, Captain"?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The letter says:  "Subject:  Confiscated Serbian weapons."  And

11     the first part of the letter says:  "Sir, as per your instructions, on

12     the evening of 4 August 1995, UN MP personnel conducted searched of all

13     refugees, including their personal effects, upon entering the camp.  To

14     date, the following weapons have been confiscated and are held in my

15     weapons lockup," and there's a list from A through L of these weapons,

16     which include among other things four AK-47 assault rifles with folding

17     stocks, one RPG-18 rocket launcher, one Mauser rifle, among other things.

18             Now, those weren't being carried in by women, children, old men,

19     and old ladies, were they?

20        A.   They would be carried in by anyone who was in that group.

21        Q.   So it is your testimony that you saw women, children, old men, an

22     old ladies carrying in weapons such as these into the camp?

23        A.   We didn't see any weapons brought into the camp.  Upon searching

24     the individuals and their personal effects, weapons were found.

25        Q.   That is a considerably more amount than one AK and Russian

Page 3874

 1     grenade and several knives.  Correct?

 2        A.   This memo says "this is has been confiscated to date."  That goes

 3     to the 12th of August.  We were also periodically doing sweeps of the

 4     refugee camp and finding weapons, as well as searching on an ongoing

 5     basis.

 6        Q.   Mr. Hill, the letter is dated 12 August.

 7        A.   Right.

 8        Q.   The letter says:  "On the evening of 4 August, UN MP personnel

 9     conducted searches ever all refugees."  It doesn't say the search

10     continued from the 4th to the 12th, does it?

11        A.   The following sentence says:  "To date, the following weapons

12     have been confiscated."  That's the 12th of August.

13        Q.   On the evening of 4 August 1995, UN MP conducted searches of all

14     refugees.  Correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, could I have a number for this,

17     please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection, Mr. Russo?

19             Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this become Exhibit D283.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D283 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Madam Registrar, could you please call up

23     3D00-0799.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly pause between

25     question and answer, and answer and question.

Page 3875

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  My apologies.  Actually, you don't have to pull

 2     that one.  I will forgo that document.

 3        Q.   Mr. Hill, you had these weapons in lockup.  Correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   You, yourself, took one of them, however, did you not?

 6        A.   Took one?

 7        Q.   Yes.  And used one?

 8        A.   Actually, yes.

 9        Q.   And it was an AK 47 with a folding stock?

10        A.   I believe so, yes.

11        Q.   On August 8th and August 10th, when you were at check-points

12     during your tours -- or August 8th and August 9th, the Croatian military

13     personnel at those check-points recognised that weapon, and you got some

14     significant problems as a result of that, didn't you?

15        A.   I do recall that at one check-point after Kistanje where I met

16     Ivan Juric, and we went past to go to, I believe, Benkovac or where the

17     Kenyan battalion headquarters was, at that check-point, the Croatian army

18     confiscated the weapon because it was Serbian.

19        Q.   Mr. Hill, I'd like you to refer to your statement P292, please.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And the upper right-hand corner page number

21     would be the last four digits of 7675, for the registrar as well.

22             THE WITNESS:  Line?

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

24        Q.   I'll submit to you that this is from August 8th, and beginning on

25     line -- start at line 17 with the word "We."

Page 3876

 1             It says:  "We didn't know what the problem was, but there were

 2     shots fired against the UN.  By this time, it is getting dark.  There is

 3     no electricity in the town.  So he showed me where the problem was.  It

 4     was behind a building.  There was at least 30 military people, soldiers

 5     and MPs, around an UN vehicle.  There was a Serb interpreter in the car.

 6     This is the first time when I approached.  This is where I met the

 7     brigade commander of what I believe at the time -- at that time was the

 8     4 Brigade.  He is very tall.  As I approached, they went crazy about our

 9     weapons.  They've never done that before.  I was carrying my AK, a

10     pistol."

11             Mr. Hill, they weren't going crazy about "our weapons."  They

12     were going crazy about your weapon, were they not?

13        A.   No, that is not the case.  As a clarification, when I say "my

14     AK," up until the morning of the 5th, I believe, when the artillery round

15     killed those ARSK soldiers, I had been authorised to carry a Czech

16     Republic AK.  Our weapons, the Canadian version of an M-16 called a C-7

17     is inadequate, and Colonel Leslie at the time authorised us to use the

18     AKs that the Czech were carrying within my unit.

19             I had lost that because my Czechs were caught in Zagreb, so the

20     only solution for me was using the Serb one.  So it could be, depending

21     on date, Czech or Serb.

22             At this point, the reason they went crazy, in my view, is they

23     didn't want anyone near their commander with any type of weapon at all,

24     even my pistol which was unusual.  I never had turn over a pistol.  It's

25     always on my thigh.  Both weapons had to be given to my second in command

Page 3877

 1     before I could approach the commander.  It was irrelevant what it was.

 2        Q.   Okay, Mr. Hill.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Let's go do 1D17-0213.

 4        Q.   That's the cover sheet, Mr. Hill, for the witness statement of

 5     Phillip Roy Berikoff.  You know who that is, don't you?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   Who is Mr. Berikoff?

 8        A.   At the time, he was an intelligence officer in the sector.

 9        Q.   He was a Canadian military man, was he not?

10        A.   Yes, captain.

11        Q.   And August 9, you and he were together going towards Benkovac,

12     were you not?

13        A.   What line is that in the report?

14        Q.   Do you remember?

15        A.   Not specifically on that day.

16        Q.   All right.  Let's go to page -- by the way, the statement was

17     dated May 26/27th of 1997.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Let go to page 0234 of that same document.

19        Q.   And we'll start on line 18:  "On the 9th of August, Captain Hill

20     and Captain Dangerfield, Sergeant Green, Corporal Tremblay, and I once

21     against pushed the restriction of movement envelope, and this time we

22     were stopped at a Croat check-point at Bribirske Mostine.  We were forced

23     out of our vehicle at gunpoint by a number of intoxicated Croat soldiers.

24     I could not identify their unit because they were not wearing any soldier

25     badges.  They were more of a paramilitary organisation at this time.

Page 3878

 1             "As I said, we were forced at gunpoint, and the reason for that

 2     was actually quite stupid on the part of Captain Geoff Hill.  When we

 3     backed the soldiers, ARSK soldiers, on the first day of the offensive, a

 4     number of weapons were collected and turned into the military police at

 5     the UN compound.  Captain Hill and Corporal Tremblay decided to each

 6     carry an AK because of the folding rifle stock, and use it instead of our

 7     regular C-7 rifle.

 8             "When we got to the check-point, this intoxicated Croat soldier

 9     recognised the rifle that Captain Hill was carrying, and he went

10     ballistic and started yelling and screaming and pointing his gun at us.

11     And the rest of the soldiers surrounded the vehicle and forced us out of

12     the vehicle.  We were fortunate enough that there was a Croatian

13     English-speaking officer that had been at the Kenyan headquarters in

14     Bribirske Mostine.  He came down and defused the situation.

15             "We were finally allowed to go; however, Captain Hill's weapon

16     was confiscated by the Croat soldier, and finally -- and we finally were

17     told to go back to our headquarters in Knin."

18             Now, Mr. Hill, it's true, is it not, with respect to the AK that

19     the reason the soldiers went nuts was because it was a Serb weapon that

20     you had taken from the confiscated weapons early in the 4th or 5th of

21     August of 1995?

22        A.   I believe the reason they went crazy the way they did was because

23     the weapon I had was of Serbian origin.

24        Q.   And that's the second day in a row that that happened.  It

25     happened on the 8th and it happened again on the 9th, because had you an

Page 3879

 1     AK that was a Serb weapon, right?

 2        A.   The second day it happened because it was a Serb weapon.  The

 3     first day it occurred because ita was a weapon, period; and we were in

 4     the presence of a commander.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would like to have that portion

 6     of the statement, the title page, and that page marked as a MFI.

 7             Mr. Berikoff is testifying, so I guess we can do what we did with

 8     Mr. Tchernetsky, if that is agreeable.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

10             MR. RUSSO:  That's fine, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will follow the same procedure.  I don't

12     know whether he is on the witness list, but we will follow the same

13     procedure for this portion of the document, because you do not want to

14     tender the whole of it, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It doesn't make sense at this point, Your

16     Honour, because I didn't put any questions to him about that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then it will be marked for identification.

18             MR. RUSSO:  That's fine, Your Honour, and Mr. Berikoff is on the

19     witness list and will be coming to testify.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, have you uploaded this portion or is

21     it still to be uploaded just those pages.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the portion of the document will

25     become Exhibit number D248, marked for identification.

Page 3880

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 3        Q.   Mr. Hill, I'd like to ask you some questions now about D267.  It

 4     was a document that Mr. Kay had asked you some questions about.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And if we go to page 4 of the English version of

 6     that document, please, to the lower part after:  "I appoint Major Ivan

 7     Juric," and a little higher.

 8             That's perfect.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kay had asked you about Mr. Juric, and you had testified and

10     made -- had several comments in your statements about Mr. Juric and his

11     area of responsibility.  Do you know -- strike that?

12             The next gentleman, whose named Colonel Damir Kozic, have you

13     ever met him before?

14        A.   Not to my knowledge.

15        Q.   So if I told you that Colonel Damir Kozic was similarly situated

16     to Major Ivan Juric, but for the areas of Gracac and north, you would not

17     know anything about that, would you?

18        A.   No, I don't.

19        Q.   So when you went into Gracac and further north to Korenica on

20     your tour on August 10th, you had no contact with anyone related to

21     Mr. Kozic's staff or group.  Correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   Now, when you went to the north, you said you ran into some

24     check-points on August 10th.  Who were or what personnel were manning

25     those check-points?

Page 3881

 1        A.   Which check-points?

 2        Q.   The check-points Gracac and north.

 3        A.   Can you show me where that is in my statement, please?

 4        Q.   I'm asking you the question:  What check-points did you run in,

 5     if you ran into any check-points at all, from Gracac and north, up to

 6     Korenica?

 7        A.   I don't recall.

 8        Q.   Did you run into any check-points at all on August 10th on your

 9     way up from Gracac to Korenica?

10        A.   I don't recall.

11        Q.   You had --

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  We can take that document down now.  Thank you.

13        Q.   There was some testimony about the anti-terrorist unit of the

14     military police that you had.  Correct?

15        A.   I this seen when the HV came to the gate for the first time at

16     noon, I believe it was the 5th, and it was the one time I saw what I

17     believed to a counter-terrorist unit member of the HV.  That was later

18     confirmed when I had talked to Ivan Juric, that, in fact, that was part

19     of the HV police.  It's the only time I saw one of those members.

20        Q.   What did they look like?

21        A.   Grey uniform, black belt.  The uniform is like one piece, like a

22     tank suit, black boots.  This individual had an MP-35 with a suppressor

23     and a laser sight.

24        Q.   Did you see that individual at any other place other than in

25     Knin?

Page 3882

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   When you were at various check-points throughout the, let's say,

 3     10th, 11th when you were in Donji Lapac area, what were the people at

 4     those check-points wearing.

 5        A.   The Donji Lapac was standard HV combat camouflage.  I never saw

 6     anyone at that check-point dressed like the counter-terrorism unit

 7     member.

 8        Q.   I would like to ask you questions about Gracac specifically,

 9     Mr. Hill, and if we could take a look at the map that you drew your

10     various routes on.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It is P307, if we could pull that up, please.

12        Q.   Now, unfortunately, my copy is not in colour, so I'm going to

13     have to squint down and take a look at the screen of P307.

14             But on the 10th of August, noted in blue is your trip up to --

15     toward Pecane and Korenica.  Correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And on that trip, you would have gone through the city of Gracac?

18        A.   Can I see the map, please.

19        Q.   If you need it enlarged, feel free to ask?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   So you would go north from Knin, get to where the red circled

22     Otric is, and then go left toward Gracac?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Or that would be roughly east, north-east?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3883

 1        Q.   And then from Gracac, you would go and head north, and it is off

 2     the map, but Pecane is north of Gracac, correct, at least in this

 3     enlargement?

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could zoom out one.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 7        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to know from your -- strike that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, east, north-east, where exactly is

 9     that?  I'm trying to --

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yeah.  My directions, Your Honour, were not very

11     good, and I apologise foot Court and to the witness for that.  It is

12     north-west, actually.

13             THE WITNESS:  Right.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It's west and then west, north-west from Otric

15     to Gracac.  I apologise for that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You are invited to be more precise, and you,

17     Mr. Hill, if something is put to you which is not exactly correct, even

18     visible on the screen, then please be very alert on possible mistakes by

19     counsel.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  My fault, Your Honour.  Thank you.

21        Q.   On P292, I'd like to ask you some questions about your trip

22     through Gracac, Mr. Hill.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  7698 is the page -- actually, 7699.

24             Are we there, Madam Registrar?  Thank you.

25        Q.   Line 17, you were asked a question:  "Please correct me if I'm

Page 3884

 1     wrong, you said that Gracac was targeted by shelling."

 2             And you answer:  "Oh, yeah, it was obvious."

 3             Then you were asked:  "Was there any buildings in particular that

 4     you can remember?  Were they civilian houses or were they ..." --

 5             And you answered:  "To my knowledge, there was nothing in Gracac

 6     of military value.  It's just a town, another town with the same houses

 7     with red roofs.  They got basically destroyed."

 8             I would like to ask you:  Who told you or how did you come to

 9     your knowledge that there was nothing in Gracac of military value?

10        A.   I don't recall ever seeing anything prior to the offensive on the

11     4th that was there with the ARSK.

12        Q.   So that's not to say that there was, perhaps, nothing of military

13     value.  You just didn't know whether there was something of military

14     value.  Is that fair?

15        A.   That's correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, that's what the statement says, "to

17     my knowledge."  So, therefore.  That is already part of it.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we go back to 7698, line 10.

21        Q.   At this point in your statement on August 10th, which is the

22     time-frame you were talking about the debris trail, and on line 10, you

23     said:  "At the intersection of Gracac, the debris seemed to stop.  We

24     lost the trail.  There was a massive ammo dump there to the side of the

25     road where the horse was."

Page 3885

 1             Now, the massive ammo dump would seem to be a military target.

 2     Correct?

 3        A.   When I say "massive ammo dump," that was crates and crates of

 4     ammunition that had been put there in the middle of a field.  It was not

 5     a building.  It was not a structure.  It appeared as if ten-tonne trucks

 6     would back up, the ammunition was offloaded, and it was there.

 7        Q.   That is not contained in the next two lines, however, is it?

 8     "Artillery rounds were laying everywhere.  It was destroyed."  I read

 9     that right, didn't I?

10        A.   Yeah.  I remember seeing artillery rounds with the fuses, laid

11     out there rows and rows and rows.  Artillery rounds were laying

12     everywhere.  It was destroyed.  The ammunition dump was not.  I don't

13     know what this is referring to.

14        Q.   "Ammo dump" has a common connotation as a depot for ammunition,

15     does it not?

16        A.   This is it not a depot.  This was one that was put by the side of

17     the that was fast and temporary.

18        Q.   That is not said anywhere in these three sentences.  Correct?

19        A.   Correct.  It is it not said in those three sentences.

20        Q.   Now, were you aware that Gracac was a fairly significant junction

21     going north, east, and west on the highway between north and south for

22     Croatia?

23        A.   No, I wasn't.

24        Q.   Were you aware of a Territorial Defence building in Gracac?

25        A.   No, I wasn't.

Page 3886

 1        Q.   Were you aware of the police station that was in Gracac that was

 2     involved in Territorial Defence?

 3        A.   No, I wasn't.

 4        Q.   Were you aware of any other military targets in Gracac?

 5        A.   No, I wasn't.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Now, I'd like to pull up 3D00-0387, please.

 7        Q.   While that is coming up -- actually, I'll wait for it come up and

 8     ask the questions relating to that, because it dovetails into this map.

 9             Mr. Hill, can you tell me -- I'll represent to you that this is a

10     map of Gracac and its greater locality.  The intersection which is toward

11     the right third of the document, of the map, is the intersection that

12     would lead one north towards Korenica, west towards Gospic through

13     Gracac, and east towards Otric.

14             Is this the road that you took when you went through Gracac?

15        A.   I believe so.

16        Q.   Okay.  So you would have -- if you could use the cursor please --

17     actually, why don't you use the blue marker, and that way we will have a

18     permanent record of it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, will you please assist.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

21        Q.   Could you please show us the route that you took as you were

22     coming from Otric west towards Gracac on August 10th, and then going

23     north toward Korenica.

24             And if you could mark that in blue with the pen there that the

25     usher provided.

Page 3887

 1        A.   I would only know that I would following this route, unless I can

 2     see the map higher, to see if that is a direct shot up north.  I can't

 3     tell if that was, in fact, the road I took.

 4        Q.   Let's assume for a moment, and for purposes of this question,

 5     that the intersection that you went just beyond is the road that goes

 6     directly north to Korenica.  Would that have been the road you took?

 7        A.   The most direct route, directly north.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So you would not have gone -- let's assume for a moment

 9     that the direct route goes straight north from the intersection that you

10     just passed with your blue marker, that would be the most direct route to

11     Korenica and that is the route you would have taken?

12        A.   If you look at the map I gave of all of the routes, you will see

13     that we always took primary routes, with the exception of when the HV

14     would not let me move, and then we would go secondary.

15        Q.   I'll ask you some a few more questions about this, and then we

16     will try to find another map, Mr. Hill.

17             If you took the most direct route, would you agree with me that

18     you would not have gone through the city of Gracac, itself; you would

19     have gone around it?

20        A.   I can't recall.

21        Q.   Tell me, if you could, please, on your way through Gracac, if you

22     can designate for me, in your statement, you said:  "It was destroyed."

23             Tell me, in this map, what was destroyed, if you can, in terms of

24     the area?  What buildings, what anything?

25        A.   Destruction in general, some buildings burning, some destroyed by

Page 3888

 1     artillery.  As you come into the town on the main route, the south side,

 2     there was a big field where there was an HV check-point.  That's where we

 3     saw the artillery impacts in the ground as they were walking into the

 4     town of Gracac from east to west.

 5        Q.   All right --

 6        A.   No people present in the village, and an extremely strong smell

 7     of dead bodies.

 8        Q.   Circle for me the area that you said was totally destroyed on

 9     this -- on this map?

10        A.   I can't circle it exactly.  The town in general.

11        Q.   So, for you, the whole town would be from one end of the map to

12     the other?

13        A.   Depending on where the northern route would be.  It would be up

14     to that route a little past and around perhaps south, and then moving up

15     northwards.

16        Q.   Well, why don't you just draw a circle around what you say was

17     totally destroyed?

18        A.   When I see what the route is I take, then I can do that more

19     accurately.

20        Q.   Well, let's assume for a moment you took the route along the road

21     that you said was the most direct route, which was right before you ended

22     your blue mark, for purposes of this question.  What was destroyed, if

23     that's the route that you took?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But, Mr. Kuzmanovic, to say if you went to the left,

25     could you tell us what circle, what was destroyed; if you went to the

Page 3889

 1     right circle, what was destroyed there.  That is, it seems to me, an

 2     impossible question.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 4        Q.   Well, Mr. Hill, you took no pictures of Gracac, did you?

 5        A.   I don't believe so.

 6        Q.   How long did you drive through Gracac?

 7        A.   I don't recall.

 8        Q.   Was it an hour?

 9        A.   I don't recall.

10        Q.   How long was that day -- that trip that day?

11        A.   All of the trips normally started approximately 0930 in the

12     morning, and depending on how long it took and how far we got, it went

13     until we were done.

14        Q.   Who were the troops that you saw in Gracac as you were driving

15     through?

16        A.   HV army.

17        Q.   And what did they look like?

18        A.   HV army.

19        Q.   Which means what?  Green, yellow, what kind of uniforms?

20        A.   Camouflage, the American pattern, which is typical of the HV

21     soldiers that I saw throughout the sector.

22        Q.   Do you know what units they were with?

23        A.   No, I don't know.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Please pause between question and answer.

25     Thank you.

Page 3890

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  We both speak English so it goes by very

 2     quickly, and I'm sorry for the --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it sounded more like cross-fire than

 4     cross-examination.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Did you drive through the entire town, meaning going all the way

 8     to the west through Gracac?

 9        A.   I don't recall.

10        Q.   Can you tell me where -- you said that you positioned yourself or

11     recall positioning where there was a horse that had been killed.  Is that

12     location anywhere on this map that gives you an orientation at all?

13        A.   No.  I believe the horse would be farther back in around --

14        Q.   Further east?

15        A.   Yes.  I believe.

16        Q.   Off of this map?

17        A.   I believe so.

18        Q.   When you were on your way up to Pecane, I think you had talked

19     about the fact that you saw blue uniformed, at you termed to be Special

20     Police.  Can you explain that?

21        A.   In the town?

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   As we were driving along the main route north, it was the town

24     located up on the hill.  It was burning.  We saw lots of uniforms for

25     civilian police.  But on the outside cordon of the town, there was two --

Page 3891

 1     I'll call them APCs, they're wheeled but armoured with cannons, blue,

 2     dark blue, pointed inwards to the town.  The town was burning.  We saw

 3     police coming out of the -- out of houses.  There was looting.  But we

 4     could not get near because of the outer cordon, and we continued.

 5        Q.   All right.  When you say where -- the police that were by the

 6     APCs what colour of uniforms were those police?

 7        A.   Dark blue.

 8        Q.   Black boots?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the police that were inside the town, were they differently

11     clothed?

12        A.   They appeared to be more on the interior of the civilian police

13     with the light blue shirts and I believe grey pants, black boots.

14        Q.   Any side-arms?

15        A.   Oh, they all would have had side-arms.

16        Q.   How long did you spend up there?

17        A.   I don't recall.

18        Q.   Did you speak to anyone up there?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did you take any pictures up there?

21        A.   I don't believe so.  In a situation like that, we wouldn't

22     have -- we would have been fairly quick, because had they seen us seeing

23     them, I didn't want any issues.  So we wouldn't have stopped to talk.

24        Q.   Well, did you make yourself conspicuous as you were driving

25     through or were you trying to do this surreptitiously?

Page 3892

 1        A.   It is hard to be the only vehicle on the road and be a white one

 2     and be surreptitious.

 3        Q.   So is that a no?

 4        A.   That's a no.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'd like to move the Gracac

 6     3D00-0387 into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, may I take it there is no objection

 8     against that?

 9             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will become Exhibit

12     number D285.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D285 is admitted into evidence.

14             Mr. Kuzmanovic, let me just verify first with Mr. Russo whether

15     he still doesn't need time for re-examination, because it looks as if you

16     and Mr. Kehoe have agreed not only on the time available to you but also

17     to the Bench and the Prosecution.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I have two more areas and I'm done, Your Honour.

19     It will take me five minutes.

20             MR. RUSSO:  I have nothing at this point, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   On P282, again, your statement, Mr. Hill -- P292, thank you.  Too

25     many numbers.  7698.  I'm curious, on line 19, Mr. Hill, when you were

Page 3893

 1     talking about Pecane, you said you:  "... saw one town still burning,

 2     Pecane, which is close on the way to Benkovac."

 3             Now, if we pull out the map, P307.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could pull that up, please.

 5        Q.   And this discussion in your -- in your statement revolved around

 6     Gracac, and Pecane and Benkovac are on -- almost opposite sides of this

 7     particular map, P307.

 8             And if we could zoom a little bit to the top we'll show where

 9     Pecane is and then scroll down, please, almost to the bottom left of the

10     map?

11        A.   Hmm.

12        Q.   Pecane is not close on the way to Benkovac, is it?

13        A.   No, it's not.

14        Q.   And, actually, further south of Benkovac on the map is another

15     town which was on the front line.  It's under the Bribirske Mostine

16     called Gracac.  Do you see that there?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, earlier we heard about the village

18     and the town.  Now you're referring to a town of Gracac which you earlier

19     called a village, which is confusing.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I apologise.  It is confusing, and that's why

21     I'm asking if Mr. Hill could be confusing the two himself, because this

22     Gracac appears to be closer to -- to Benkovac that the other Gracac.  And

23     the Gracac which is lower on the map, we'll call that the village of

24     Gracac, is on the front line.  Or was on the front line.

25             THE WITNESS:  I don't believe I'm confusing them.

Page 3894

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 2        Q.   But it is true that Benkovac is much closer to this particular

 3     village of Gracac than it is with respect to where Pecane was, north of

 4     the Gracac.  Correct?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Whatever the witness says, Mr. Kuzmanovic, that

 6     appears from the map itself.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

10        Q.   One final area, Mr. Hill.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'd like the Exhibit P303 to be called up,

12     please -- P306.

13        Q.   This document is signed by you, is it not, Mr. Hill?

14        A.   I don't have an English version in front of me.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16        Q.   If we could go just to the second page, to see that your

17     signature appears there, to verify it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, this document has no letterhead on it at all.  Correct?

20        A.   Can you scroll to the top, please?

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to the top of the second page and

22     the top of the first page.

23             THE WITNESS:  No.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

25        Q.   And this document, as we had discussed before, has no date, other

Page 3895

 1     than 4-11 August, 1995 on it, correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Now we were given an exhibit list by the Office of the Prosecutor

 4     that showed that this particular 65 ter document, which was 00728, was

 5     dated 23 August 1996.  There is no such designation anywhere on this

 6     document, is there?

 7        A.   Not that I can see.

 8        Q.   Now, who asked you to put this together?

 9        A.   I have no recollection.

10        Q.   Was this ordered to be put together by anyone at UN Sector South?

11        A.   I don't recall if it was for Sector South or if it was for my

12     reporting chain through Croatian military -- provo marshall from Zagreb.

13        Q.   And the other document that we had seen earlier, that you had

14     signed, regarding the weapons, that was on UN letterhead and had a date

15     on it.  Correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Now the last page of this document, page 2, section J, it says:

18     "This report is submitted for your action/information."

19             Who is that directed to?

20        A.   I don't know.  Based on the way this is written in the form, it

21     appears as if it might have been an appendices or an annex to a document

22     that was requested.  Because normally, if it is a memo within the sector,

23     it has to have letterhead, my title, who it is going to.  Same as if it

24     were to go to Zagreb.

25        Q.   So this does not, at least on its face, appear to be an official

Page 3896

 1     document?

 2        A.   It is if it's signed by me.

 3        Q.   Well, what are the notations on the bottom of this document?

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could scroll down to the very bottom.

 5        Q.   There appear to be some hand markings.  What are those?  Are

 6     those your signatures?

 7        A.   The left is my initials, and there's two other sets of initials.

 8     I don't know whose they are.

 9        Q.   Did Colonel Leslie ask you to put this together?

10        A.   I don't recall who asked.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I don't have any other questions.

12     Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

14             Mr. Russo.

15             MR. RUSSO:  I have just one very brief thing to point out.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Russo:

18        Q.   Mr. Hill, let's stay with your second statement, and let's go to

19     7640.  That's actually the third page of the statement.  That's P292.

20        A.   40?

21        Q.   7640.  I'll ask to you read lines 7 through 10.

22        A.   "I have authenticated a statement that I signed as an original.

23     It doesn't have a date.  I was instructed to provide this when I was in

24     theatre by Colonel Tymchuk.  It is a brief synopsis of my activities from

25     the 4th through 11th August, 1995, Sector South, Croatia, the former

Page 3897

 1     Yugoslavia.  And I have authenticated it as a copy of the original."

 2        Q.   And is that the document that Mr. Kuzmanovic was just asking

 3     about?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Russo.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9                           Questioned by the Court:

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.

11             JUDGE KINIS:  Mr. Hill, I would like to refer to your statement

12     from 1997, and it's page 7651, line 30.

13             When you mentioned, "at this time, however, in the first days,

14     they were shooting from two directions," my question is who were "they."

15        A.   HV, Croatians.

16             JUDGE KINIS:  Only?  Or you mentioned also that there were would

17     be some counter-attack from RSK as well.

18        A.   At that point for the shelling in the morning?

19             JUDGE KINIS:  Yes.

20        A.   My perception was it was strictly HV artillery on the town of

21     Knin from two directions.

22             JUDGE KINIS:  From two directions, yes?

23        A.   Yes.  The next day, three.

24             JUDGE KINIS:  My next question is related with your statement.

25     Unfortunately, I do not recall this exhibit number.  But it is referring

Page 3898

 1     where you mention that you saw a huge amount of heavy ARSK military

 2     pieces, tanks, and a lot of soldier in the border area in end of July and

 3     beginning of August.

 4             Could you please tell me where was this area?  Was this area

 5     close to Kenyan battalion or it is another direction?

 6        A.   On the 31st of July?

 7             JUDGE KINIS:  Yes, at the end of July and the beginning of

 8     August.  And then you mentioned in this next statement in page 7643,

 9     starting from line 9, that there was positions next to Kenyan battalion.

10             Was this heavy artillery pieces in the same place or it is

11     different location?

12        A.   Different location, Your Honour.  One is south in Vrlika and the

13     other is actually up -- the one on the 1st, I believe, or the 2nd, was by

14     Strmica.

15             JUDGE KINIS:  By Strmica, yes.  And this second, you saw in the

16     5th of August.  Is this correct?

17        A.   I don't have the exact date.  It was close to the 5th.

18             JUDGE KINIS:  Close to the 5th.

19        A.   Yeah.

20             JUDGE KINIS:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions triggered any need to put

22     questions to the witness.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Just briefly, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Kehoe.

25                      Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

Page 3899

 1        Q.   Mr, Hill, the item that Judge Kinis just talked to you about on

 2     page 577651, in P292, you say, at line 31, excuse me:  "They were

 3     shooting at us from Strmica ..." -- line 30:  They were shooting at us

 4     from Strmica and they were shooting at us from south of the Dinara."

 5             Now Strmica, from your patrols up there, was ARSK territory,

 6     wasn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, on the second day, which would be the 5th:  "They were now

 9     shooting at us from a third direction coming from Drnis."

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So were they shooting at you from three directions on the 5th?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And still, in Strmica -- sorry.

14             Just waiting for the translation to pick up.

15             Still, on the 5th, ARSK, if you were getting fire from Strmica

16     and that was an ARSK position, there was incoming fire on the 5th from

17     the ARSK, wasn't there?

18        A.   I couldn't say that.

19        Q.   Well, let's go to D89, page 5.

20             MR. KEHOE:  If we could just go briefly to page 1 first on D89.

21        Q.   This is a Sector South sitrep.

22             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to page 5.

23        Q.   The date of this is 5 August 1995.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Oh, one page before, I apologise, page 4.

25        Q.   Look at the third paragraph down:  "On 05, at 1500, ARSK soldiers

Page 3900

 1     of unknown strength were seen occupying defensive positions in the

 2     general area of Strmica," grid reference.  "Tanks and mortars were seen

 3     in the same area.  At 05, at 1815, they fired 12 rounds of artillery from

 4     Strmica towards Knin."

 5             Now, how much shelling by the ARSK was coming from Strmica or

 6     other areas into Knin on the 5th after they had withdrawn?

 7             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I am going object to that.  The sitrep

 8     indicates that there is fire from mortars and tanks towards Knin.  He is

 9     now asking the witness how many of those are in Knin.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I take it you that you want to refer to the

11     text of the --

12             MR. KEHOE:  The text of the document, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The text of the document says "towards Knin."

14             MR. KEHOE:  Towards Knin.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you answer the question, having

16     understood this minor correction.

17             THE WITNESS:  I have no knowledge how many rounds, at all, from

18     ARSK.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Captain.  I appreciate it.

21             MR. KEHOE:  No further questions, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hill, this concludes your testimony in this

23     court.  This Chamber would like to thank you for coming and for answering

24     the questions that were put to you by the parties and by this Bench, and

25     we hope that you have a safe trip home again.

Page 3901

 1             Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Hill out of the

 2     courtroom.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Earlier, we discussed that the witness who is next

 5     to be called by the Prosecution is available tomorrow.  But on the basis

 6     of the assessments of the parties of the time they would need, the

 7     Chamber expects the parties then to stick to those estimates, so that we

 8     can conclude the testimony of the next witness tomorrow.

 9             Is there any other matter to be raised at this moment because we

10     will not sit on Friday.  Nothing.

11             Then we adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.42 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of May,

14                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.