Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4017

 1                           Monday, 2 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours; good afternoon to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Mr. Waespi or Ms. Mahindaratne, who is going to call the next OTP

12     witness?

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will be doing that, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then before we continue, I was informed that

15     there are rather compelling reasons for the witness not to be able to

16     attend tomorrow.  I have got no idea on how much time you'll actually

17     need for this witness, neither do I know how much time the Defence would

18     need to have with the witness.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I will try to finish direct

20     examination within about 30 to 40 minutes at the most.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Could I get already an impression from Defence counsel.  I'm not

23     pushing this.  It's five minutes ago that I learned that there are really

24     compelling reasons for him not to be available tomorrow.

25             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your Honour, I don't think

Page 4018

 1     that I will take longer than an hour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Mr. Cayley.

 3             MR. CAYLEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'm been informed about the

 4     situation that you're referring to, and it is not our intention to ask

 5     this witness any questions at all as things stand at the moment.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Misetic.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, at this time we don't anticipate any

 9     questions for this witness, either.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That means this is an fair expectation we

11     could finish the testimony of this witness today.

12             Then your next witness, Ms. Mahindaratne, will be?

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, sorry to interrupt.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm sorry.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Before we begin, I spoke with counsel about this

16     already with Ms. Mahindaratne following up from Thursday of last week

17     with the testimony of Mr. Morneau there are some additional documents we

18     wanted to tender via bar table that are related to the prisoner issue

19     that I cross-examined him on.  We just didn't have enough time.  I wanted

20     to leave time for the Court to have questions and for Ms. Mahindaratne to

21     have, obviously, redirect.  I have spoken to her.  I've identified what

22     -- there's all 65 ter documents, and I thought I'd try and submit them

23     now to keep it close with the testimony.  So with your permission, Your

24     Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, we would have to look at it, but

Page 4019

 1     you have a list of the documents you'd like to tender?

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I do, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then is Mr. Registrar informed about what documents

 4     they are?

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  He has not been, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest the following.  You give the list to

 7     Mr. Registrar, that he provisionally assigns numbers to them, and that a

 8     copy of the list will be given to the Chamber as well.  That --

 9     Mr. Registrar, can then upload them in the system so that these documents

10     are available to us as well.

11             Ms. Mahindaratne, will there be any objections?  You know what

12     documents we're talking about?

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  There will be no

14     objections.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  There will be no objections.  So just for the

16     Chamber to look at them as well.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's for everyone.  It's for

18     the Chamber to look at in conjunction with that issue, and they were

19     actually -- we had two documents that were admitted through his

20     testimony, D292 and D293.  They are the same documents along those lines.

21     There were two other documents that were previously admitted as D

22     documents through other witnesses, and I just thought I'd identify them

23     all as a group so the Court could have it in a location where it would

24     all be together.

25             And then what I could do is provide Mr. Registrar a list.  I have

Page 4020

 1     the 65 ter numbers already.  I could just put the list together, and I

 2     can advise everyone of the same.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please, proceed in that way.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I will, Your Honour, thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Anything else before we invite

 6     Ms. Mahindaratne to call the next witness?

 7             That will be take, I take it, Mr. Vanderostyne.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderostyne.  Do you hear me in

12     a language you understand?

13             THE WITNESS:  I do.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we could perhaps speak Dutch and Flemish, but

15     that's not one of the official languages in this court.

16             Mr. Vanderostyne, before you give evidence in this Court, the

17     Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn

18     declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

19     but the truth.

20             The text is now handed out to you by the usher, and I'd like to

21     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

22             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

23     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  EDMOND VANDEROSTYNE

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Vanderostyne.

Page 4021

 1             Mr. Vanderostyne, I inquired with the parties how much time they

 2     would need for your examination, and we are all really confident that

 3     your testimony can be concluded this afternoon.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's one.  Second, we usual have a break at a

 6     quarter to 4.00 until quarter past 4.00, and then again at approximately

 7     5.30 if we still need so much time.  But we always adapt our times for

 8     breaks if a witness would prefer to have a break at another time.  We

 9     easily adapt our schedule to that.  Please keep that in mind, and if you

10     need a break at any other moment, just let me know, give me a sign.

11             Mr. Vanderostyne, you will first be examined by Ms. Mahindaratne,

12     who is counsel for the Prosecution.

13             Ms. Mahindaratne you may proceed.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15                           Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderostyne.  Could you please state your

17     full name for the record.

18        A.   Excuse me, I didn't understand.

19        Q.   Could you please -- do you get my translation?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Could you please state your full name for the record.

22        A.   My name is Edmond Vanderostyne, Nicknamed Mon.

23        Q.   Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on

24     15th March and 1st July, 2005?

25        A.   Yes, madam, I did.

Page 4022

 1        Q.   Now, yesterday, did you have the opportunity to examine that

 2     statement?

 3        A.   Yes, madam.  I have gone through it extensively yesterday.

 4        Q.   Did you find that the contents of the statement accurately

 5     reflects what you stated to the members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call on the screen document number 5163,

 8     please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, are the contents of your statement true to the

10     best of your knowledge?

11        A.   They are true to the best of my knowledge.

12        Q.   Now, if I were to ask you the questions that were asked of you by

13     the member of the Office of the Prosecutor on 15th March and 1st July to

14     the court, would your responses be the same as those reflected in your

15     statement?

16        A.   Yes, absolutely, they would be.

17        Q.   If you look at the screen in front of you, Mr. Vanderostyne,

18     could you identify that this is your statement, and if we could flick

19     through to the signature page, please.

20        A.   It is my statement and my signature.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I tender this statement in

22     evidence, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  From the written submissions, I understand there's

24     no objection against admission.  Therefore, Mr. Registrar, this would be

25     number ...

Page 4023

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P321, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P321 is admitted into evidence.

 3             Since we're dealing at this moment with admission of evidence, I

 4     noticed, Ms. Mahindaratne, that the Prosecution has applied for adding to

 5     its 65 ter list two documents in the written submissions that was the CV

 6     of Mr. Vanderostyne, and it was a map showing the itinerary.  From the

 7     written submissions from the Defence, I do understand that there is no

 8     objection against that.  And I also now understand that you want to add

 9     to your 65 ter list two new documents by the numbers of 5172, and -- let

10     me just see whether I'm not making any mistake.  Yes, I think it is 5172

11     and 5173 which you'd like to add to your 65 ter list as well.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's correct, Mr. President, but there has

13     been an adjustment.  I would now wish to make an application only with

14     regard to document number 5173, 5173.  I'm no longer sustaining the

15     application with regard to document number 5172.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I took it from e-mail exchanges which were

17     copied to the Chamber that there is no objection against adding 5173 to

18     the 65 ter list.  I see all counsel nodding.

19             Then, Ms. Mahindaratne, the Chamber decides that the CV of this

20     witness, which was - I'm just looking now at the --

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That would be, Mr. President, 5164, document

22     number 5164.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is called here the resume dated the 1st of

24     January, 2005.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes.  That's right, Mr. President.

Page 4024

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the Chamber grants the request to add

 2     5164, 5165, and 5173 to the Prosecution's 65 ter list.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderostyne, these are some procedural issues

 6     which we have to bother -- we shouldn't bother you with.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I just read the summary

 9     briefly before proceeding?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And again, I take it you have explained to

11     Mr. Vanderostyne what the purpose of reading it is.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That is correct.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Edmond Vanderostyne is a journalist who worked

15     as a reporter, a senior writer, and an editorialist with a leading

16     Belgian group of daily newspapers, De Standaard, for over three decades.

17     He has reported on conflicts throughout the world, including in Rwanda

18     and Afghanistan.  He was present and reported on events in Sarajevo and

19     Vukovar during the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.  Mr. Vanderostyne

20     has received numerous awards for his journalistic work.

21             Mr. Vanderostyne was present in the Krajina on assignment in the

22     immediate aftermath of Operation Storm.  He travelled in Sectors North

23     and South and observed extensive destruction of property due to shelling

24     and arson, looting, and evidence of the hasty flight of the Serb

25     population.  He observed the presence of Croatian military forces and

Page 4025

 1     civilian police, including military and civilian police check-points en

 2     route to Gracac and Knin.  In Gracac, he observed destruction of

 3     property, including several burning houses.  He further observed members

 4     of the MUP Special Police forces looting in Gracac and interviewed a

 5     senior officer of the Special Police present in Gracac.

 6             Mr. Vanderostyne provides photographs of some of the scenes

 7     witnessed by him.  He has written numerous press articles on his

 8     observations in the Krajina.

 9             That concludes the summary, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.  If have you further

11     questions to put to the witness, please proceed.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, now, when you made your statement to the Office

14     of the Prosecutor, you provided the -- provided copies of press articles

15     written by you as well as some photographs, a map, and your resume.  Is

16     that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Now, yesterday, did you examine that material?

19        A.   Yes, I have seen it yesterday, and that's exactly what I had seen

20     before.

21        Q.   Are you satisfied that the contents of that material are

22     accurately explained in your statement?  You in fact explained those

23     materials?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call up document 3230, please, on the

Page 4026

 1     screen.

 2             Mr. President, this is part of the 92 ter submissions, so I -- do

 3     I just call up the number, the documents and the number is given or ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check with Mr. Registrar.  The witness

 5     statement, 5163, no attachments are -- is it just a statement, or is it

 6     with attachments?

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If I may assist, Mr. President, there are no

 8     attachments --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then they need separate numbers.

10             Mr. Registrar, this newspaper article of the Belgian newspaper

11     De Standaard original in Dutch would be ...

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P322, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P322.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objections.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Then P322 is admitted into evidence.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I ask a couple of questions before I --

17     on this document, Mr. President?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

20        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, do you know the press article on your screen?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Now, is this article based on what you observed on your

23     assignment in the Krajina, in particular what you observed in Gracac on 8

24     August, 1995?

25        A.   That's correct.  It is the newspaper of the Wednesday, 9th

Page 4027

 1     August, reporting what I had witnessed Tuesday, late afternoon, on my way

 2     from Zagreb to Knin, and it was -- it has been filed from Sibenik at the

 3     coast, Croatian coast, where there was at last a telephone available.

 4        Q.   Thank you for that.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I proceed, Mr. President?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call up documents number 3717, which is

 8     a photograph of -- going up to 3719, three photographs.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, do you want to tender them as

10     three photographs, one series, one number?

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  One number would be appropriate,

12     Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Will there BE any objections against the

14     photographs to be tendered?  Not.

15             Then, Mr. Registrar, the series of three photographs, 3717 up to

16     and including 3719 would receive number?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P 323, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P323 is admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  May I call up

21     Exhibit 3720 up to and including 3723, four photographs, and here, too,

22     Mr. President, if one number is given to the series it would be

23     appropriate.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I also hear of no objections.  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this series of photographs becomes

Page 4028

 1     Exhibit P324.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P324 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If could I keep that photograph on the screen,

 4     please, for the time being.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Vanderostyne, if I could draw your attention to

 6     paragraph 31 of your statement.

 7             Now, there you refer to your observations in Gracac on 8th

 8     August, and you say that in relation to your -- you say that you saw "a

 9     Delta unit, a group of about 50 men, possibly hundreds, spread over the

10     central square and in the streets around.  They also appeared to be

11     organised.  We parked the car.  I told the photographer to take pictures

12     while we distracted the officers."

13             Then in the same paragraph, going further down, up to line 15,

14     you record what you observed there.  You say:  "I saw a vehicle with a

15     sign bearing the name Delta VK," I refer to the picture numbered and you

16     have given a number, "and a blue truck bearing a plate with Cyrillic

17     letters and being loaded with goods - TV, shoes, bags, suitcases - I

18     called it war booty treasure."

19             Now, there is a photograph on the screen.  You referred to in

20     your statement a blue truck with a plate, bearing Cyrillic number plate.

21     Is that the truck you're referring to?

22        A.   That's it.  That's correct.

23        Q.   Now, this picture shows a man in olive-green uniform loading what

24     seems to be a television into the truck.  Now, in your statement at

25     paragraph 30, if I could go to the paragraph before, you say:  "We drove

Page 4029

 1     straight through the city of Gracac and did not stop.  After we left the

 2     city, we discussed what we had seen, that uniformed Croatian people were

 3     looting."

 4             Now, can you tell Court as to what was the uniform worn by those

 5     men you saw looting?

 6        A.   The uniform was khaki, Olive-green, and they had a yellow ribbon

 7     on their shoulder.

 8        Q.   Can you indicate whether can you see in your -- those men that

 9     you saw in that particular uniform, I'm not talking about the people that

10     -- individuals, but the uniform.  Can you see in this picture?

11        A.   Yes, it is that uniform.

12        Q.   This is the uniform?

13        A.   This is the uniform I had observed, yes.

14        Q.   If we can go on to the next photograph, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I take it the witness is now pointing at

16     the person who is central in this photograph?

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, indeed.  That is correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Closest to the blue --

19             THE WITNESS:  Truck.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- truck.  Yes.  Please proceed.

21             Ms. Mahindaratne, there are three persons on this screen --

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and -- although I could not immediately see

24     whether these others are wearing uniforms, but could I not exclude for

25     that possibility.  Please proceed.

Page 4030

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you for that.  If

 2     we could move to the next photograph, which bears the ERN 9981 on top.

 3     That would be the next photograph in the series.

 4        Q.   Now, did you see scenes like this in Gracac on 8th August,

 5     Mr. Vanderostyne?

 6        A.   Oh yes, I did, yes.

 7        Q.   Can you explain to Court based on your observations what this man

 8     is supposed to be doing here.

 9        A.   He is a member of that Delta unit to whose commander I have been

10     spoken, I spoke, and he's cutting short some wires for stealing that

11     private vehicle.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Can we move on to the next photograph, please.

13             That's the document bearing ERN 9982, which is the next one in

14     the series.

15             And if we could go to the next page, please.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Vanderostyne, paragraph 31, you referred to seeing a

17     vehicle with the letters Delta VK written on it.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If we could go on to the next photograph.

19        Q.   Is that the vehicle, or were there other vehicles with the same

20     inscription that you saw in Gracac on 8th August?

21        A.   Whether there were other vehicles with that inscription, I would

22     not be sure today.  But I have seen that vehicle with that inscription

23     painted on the -- on that vehicle, yes, indeed, in Gracac.  On that day.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Vanderostyne, can I just take you to your paragraph 33

25     of your statement.  You refer to seeing in Gracac -- you say:  "I saw men

Page 4031

 1     in khaki uniforms."

 2             When you use the word "khaki uniforms," are you referring to the

 3     olive-green uniforms that we're seeing in these pictures?

 4        A.   Yes, ma'am.

 5        Q.   Going back to paragraph 31, you -- and I read it to you a little

 6     while ago, you refer to instructing your photographer to take pictures

 7     while you distracted the officers.

 8             Now, how long did you spend in Gracac on 8th August?  And if you

 9     could answer briefly.

10        A.   I shall answer briefly.  We -- our focus was to witness the

11     situation in Knin, yet we what we observed in Gracac and between Gospic

12     and Gracac was a story in itself.  However, we were very late that

13     afternoon, and we were very short in time.  So we drove very fast through

14     the city of Gracac, and it was only after we had left that we stopped the

15     car.  I was there with a colleague and a photographer; we were three.  We

16     stopped the car, and we looked to each other, asking, Have you seen what

17     I have seen?  Driving at a -- fastly through the city centre, and every

18     one of us had seen that same scene of looting and khaki uniform.  So we

19     stopped, and we decided after all although we were quite scared to drive

20     back into Gracac.  We drove very slowly, not in an aggressive mood, and

21     -- because it was a quite intense situation.  Then we drove very slowly,

22     windows opened, nobody should be -- should feel threatened.  And we

23     parked the car, and we tried to be relaxed, so in a more or less relaxed

24     way we went to a little group of those soldiers that were drinking, that

25     were relaxing under a tree.  And we started small talk, but I knew very

Page 4032

 1     well that I had maybe five, at a maximum ten minutes, and things would

 2     turn, turn more aggressive.  I was sure about that.

 3             So I knew I have to ask three, four, maybe five very precise

 4     questions, and then I have to move as soon as I can.  So after -- after

 5     engaging in small talk with the accordionist, I ask him very quickly, Who

 6     is your commander, who is in charge, and he showed me a man on the

 7     opposite of the street or the opposite of the square, and I did that in

 8     order that everyone should feel at ease.  Nobody should feel threatened.

 9     Everybody, the military and we ourselves, we were surprised.

10             Anyway, to make it short, that is the way how I got introduced to

11     that lieutenant.  He saw me walking from over the street, hands open, in

12     an open, non-aggressive mood, and I -- so I could speak to that

13     lieutenant, just fire my four or five questions.

14             How long have I been in Gracac, in all, less than 15 minutes.

15        Q.   Was it during that time that your photographer managed to take

16     these photographs?

17        A.   Yes madam.  When we moved from that accordionist to the

18     lieutenant, I told my -- the photographer, Frank Dejongh, I told him,

19     Frank, you have less than five minutes; you go around; you do your own

20     work; I'm speaking to that lieutenant; I'm asking the questions, and

21     we're away within five or ten minutes, and that's what he did.

22        Q.   Thank you for that.  Now, in the same paragraph you refer to

23     having that conversation with the officer who was present there.  And you

24     say that he identified the unit as the Delta unit of Vinkovci or from

25     Eastern Slavonia or, dash, Eastern Slavonia.  My interpretation was that

Page 4033

 1     they were a Special Police unit.  He literally said, you do understand

 2     after all what special forces mean? "

 3             And then in paragraph 32, you further go on and describe your

 4     conversation with him regarding the emblems, the insignia on his uniform.

 5             Now, according to the cover page of your statement,

 6     Mr. Vanderostyne, there is no indication that you speak Croatian.  Can

 7     you explain to Court as to how you communicated with the officer.

 8        A.   Well --

 9        Q.   And if you could -- Mr. Vanderostyne, if you could be brief

10     because we have limited time.

11        A.   Okay.

12        Q.   I apologise for that.

13        A.   I don't speak Urdu in Pakistan, either, or Kinyarwanda in Rwanda,

14     either, so no, I don't speak Croatian.  I know -- I knew a few words to

15     -- to make people feel at ease, but I don't speak Croatian.  We speak --

16     we spoke, I spoke English in the first place, and I would get an answer

17     in broken English or in German, and it would continue in broken English

18     or in German, but -- well, that's it.  That's what we did.

19        Q.   Now, when I in fact asked you this question in -- during the

20     course of proofing, you referred to your notebook which you carried on 8

21     August 1995?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If you could, I don't want to waste time you going through the

24     book.  Can you explain to Court as to whether you had specific notes of

25     that conversation in that book, and I know that have you brought it to

Page 4034

 1     Court today.

 2        A.   Yes, madam, I have.

 3        Q.   Now, at the --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Misetic.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  I'm on my feet.  I apologise for interrupting.  If

 7     I may just inquire, I don't believe that the Gotovina Defence received a

 8     proofing note for this witness.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, there was no additional

10     information provided by this witness to -- including a proofing note.

11     This was a clarification.  I asked a question as to how he communicated,

12     and he said the same thing, which I don't believe is additional

13     information.  This matter has been dealt with even in his statement, and

14     I believe what we include in a proofing note is new information that has

15     not been disclosed to the Defence.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  That's fine.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, so therefore, there is nothing new that

18     should be disclosed to the Defence.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Vanderostyne, can you tell Court where -- if it is

23     possible for you to recall, where was the looting activity that you

24     observed taking place in relation to where the officer was standing and

25     where you were conversing with the officer?

Page 4035

 1        A.   It was a central square of Gracac, and you saw soldiers -- not

 2     soldiers.  Excuse me.  You saw those khaki uniform, I will call them, all

 3     around.  Well, I have no geographic orientation or it is hard to

 4     describe, but people were spread out over that -- over that square.  Half

 5     of them were relaxing, were drinking a bottle of wine, were playing

 6     accordion, were just relaxing.  At another site, you saw a bus from

 7     Vinkovci, which I thought, which is my interpretation, which I thought

 8     would bring back those people to the area of origin.  The lieutenant told

 9     me their job had almost been done, and then at the opposite side of the

10     square there were several little groups that were looting.

11        Q.   So the opposite side of the square is in the same vicinity as you

12     were when you took -- were talking to the officer?

13        A.   Absolutely.  It's very -- off the road it is quite small, and I'm

14     speaking more specifically on the side from where we have entered from

15     Gospic.  So we drove through the city centre from left to right, let's

16     say, and on the central square, the lieutenant say -- was in the middle,

17     and then the looting took place, rather, at the left-hand side.

18        Q.   Now based on your testimony, Mr. Vanderostyne, your photographer

19     Mr. Frank Dejongh was able to photograph looting by uniformed personnel

20     within that short period.

21             Now, are you in a position to say as to how those personnel

22     reacted to the photographer attempting to record what was going on?

23        A.   I have, of course, no first-hand witness of that.  I was not

24     present with the photographer.  I had -- I directed him to move and to --

25     to go around and take his pictures.  But when he came back, he told that

Page 4036

 1     people reacted -- in the first place they were quite friendly.  They were

 2     even laughing.  There was a kind of pride, and I have observed that at

 3     many other occasions also.  Even if they're committing crimes, there's a

 4     kind of pride.  They're proud of what they are doing.  They are leaving

 5     their signature.  So in the first two minutes, it's at ease and it's

 6     comfortable and even relaxed.  They're proud of what they are doing, but

 7     he told me, and indeed, it's not -- that's what he told me, because I was

 8     not with him, he told me that it turned very sour very fast, and that was

 9     what -- what I would have excepted also.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call up documents number -- I'm sorry

11     Mr. President.  I don't believe that we gave a P number to this series of

12     photographs.

13             May I tender them in evidence, Mr. President?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, these were admitted as Exhibit

15     P324.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was what my recollection was.

17             Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry, Mr. Registrar.

19             May I call up documents number 3724, 3725, and 3713, three

20     photographs, all in the same series.

21             While they're being -- the photograph is coming up --

22        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, you referred to discussing with the officer,

23     you had a conversation with the emblems on his uniform.

24             Now, you also referred to seeing yellow ribbons on the

25     olive-green uniforms.  If you could just focus on the -- get a close-up

Page 4037

 1     on the emblem on the left sleeve of the ...

 2             Now, we note that this emblem contains the word "Policija."  Is

 3     this one of the emblems that you saw in Gracac on 8 August 1995?

 4        A.   Yes, madam.  That's the emblem the lieutenant showed me.  I asked

 5     the lieutenant, What unit are you with, and he showed, he himself showed

 6     the emblem on his -- on his arm, and that's the emblem he showed me.

 7     That's -- that I have seen myself.

 8        Q.   And did you see this emblem on any of the soldiers who you saw

 9     were -- or the personnel in uniform who were looting or who were

10     surrounding the centre, the other personnel?

11        A.   I was not focussed on that.  I have not seen it, but of course,

12     these are the pictures that had been taken that afternoon, and I

13     recognise it now, yes.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if we could move on to the next

15     photograph.

16        Q.   We see a group of men in olive-green uniforms.  Is that you in

17     the foreground?

18        A.   Yes, and I was younger.

19        Q.   And if you could -- actually, the next picture is better for the

20     emblem.  If you could move on to the next picture, please.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry, it is 748 -- I'm sorry, 3713.  And

22     if we could focus on that sleeve of the -- if you could get a -- this

23     emblem is not that clear.  It indicates a vertical line and three

24     horizontal lines.

25        Q.   Do you recall seeing this insignia?

Page 4038

 1        A.   No, I have not seen it myself, but it's clearly -- I have not

 2     seen it because I was not focussed on that.  I was just speaking, and I

 3     had very limited time.  But it is clearly that this person is one of the

 4     group I have been observing, and, yeah, that's the insignia that's on his

 5     shoulder.

 6        Q.   And were these the emblems that you discussed with -- that you

 7     discussed with the unit commander?

 8        A.   This precise emblem I did not discuss.  He showed me the MUP

 9     insignia.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I tender this into

11     evidence, please, three photographs.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Three photographs, they appear in two

13     categories, but it's 3724, 3725, and 3713.

14             Any objections?

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objections.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Then Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P325.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P325 is admitted into evidence.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call up map number 5164, please.

20        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, you provided a map to the Office of the

21     Prosecutor which indicated the route you took --

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  5165, beg your pardon.  5165.

23        Q.   You indicated the route that you took from Karlovac to Gracac and

24     then to Knin on 8 August 1995.  Do you recall that?  It will take a

25     little while to come up on the screen.

Page 4039

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I think we need to turn it --

 2             THE WITNESS:  To the left.  Yeah.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes.  And if you could just focus on that red

 4     line.  For the record, Mr. President, I'll indicate the places.

 5        Q.   You indicated the route you took on 8th August and the places you

 6     -- or the main areas that you went through.  For the record, starting

 7     with Karlovac; the next circle is Sinj [sic]; then, next one is Otocac;

 8     Gospic; Gracac; Sucevici; and then Knin.

 9             Is that correct, Mr. Vanderostyne?

10        A.   Yes, ma'am.  It is a copy of the exact map that I have used, and

11     those circles have been written by me on that afternoon, yes.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I can just --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

14             MR. MISETIC:  -- point something out to avoid later confusion in

15     the record.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. MISETIC:  The first town is Senj not to be confused with

18     Sinj, which is actually south of Knin, just so that the record is clear.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you for that.  I'm grateful for that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.  I take it, Witness, that

21     you agree with what Mr. Misetic just said, that it's not the town of

22     Sinj, which is south of but that it's a village?

23             THE WITNESS:  Exactly, sir.  We were heading in a general

24     direction of Sinj, I think which is on the coast -- on the coast, so we

25     -- I have not been in Sinj, but we were heading in that direction, and

Page 4040

 1     that might be why it is circled.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I tender the map into evidence,

 4     Mr. President?

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Then, Mr. Registrar, the map marked

 7     by the witness.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P326.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P326 is admitted into evidence.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

11        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, you also submitted your resume which includes

12     information of your experience to the Office of the Prosecutor.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If I could call up document number 5164,

14     please.

15             While the document is coming up -- yes.  And if this could be

16     tendered into evidence, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Therefore, Mr. Registrar,

18     that would be number?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P327, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P327 is admitted into evidence.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, those are the documents

22     included in the 92 ter submissions.  I have just two more documents.

23        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, yesterday during proofing I showed you prints,

24     of two emblems, and if I could call up document number 5173, please.

25             You looked at those prints, and you said you could recognise

Page 4041

 1     them.

 2             Can you recollect that --

 3        A.   Yes, madam.

 4        Q.   Where have you seen this?

 5        A.   It's the emblem the lieutenant of the Delta unit showed me on his

 6     shoulder on the uniform.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Can we go on to the next page, please, of the

 8     same document.

 9        Q.   Have you seen this emblem before?

10        A.   I have seen it before, but I did not see it personally in Gracac

11     because I have not been -- I was not focussed on that.  But I have seen

12     that emblem on the pictures of -- that the photographer have -- has taken

13     of the people that were looting in Gracac.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I tender this document into

15     evidence, please?  It contains two pages.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that there are no objections.  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P328, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P328 is admitted into evidence.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if I could call up document number 458,

20     please.

21        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, there will be a document on the screen, and I

22     appreciate if you not have seen that document before.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if you could on B/C/S move to page number

24     5; and on the English copy, to page 12 and 13.  Page 5 on B/C/S and page

25     12 and 13 on the English copy.  Mr. President, may I tender this document

Page 4042

 1     into evidence, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is more or less from the bar table, I take

 3     it that --

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'm just making use of --

 5             JUDGE ORIE: -- because the witness apparently has no knowledge of

 6     this.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objections.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Mr. Registrar, that would be --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P329, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P329 is admitted into evidence.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

12        Q.   I have just a few more questions, Mr. Vanderostyne.

13             If could I take you to paragraph 12 up to 14 in your statement.

14     You refer to coming by one civilian police check-point and thereafter

15     several military check-points after leaving Karlovac.  And, in fact, you

16     refer to being stopped at the military check-points and not being allowed

17     to move onwards and having to backtrack and take what you called

18     secondary routes.

19             Now, my question to you is:  Who manned the military

20     check-points, soldiers or military police?

21        A.   From between Zagreb and Karlovac, there were no check-points.

22     Leaving Karlovac to the south, we encountered police check-point.  They

23     told us that the road was not open and that we -- well, anyway, they let

24     us proceed anyhow because we had a permit of the Ministry of Defence.

25     That was a police check-point.

Page 4043

 1             Afterwards, between the south of Karlovac and the point where we

 2     turned to the left into Krajina proper, that -- that were military

 3     check-points.  Those were military people.

 4        Q.   My question is, Mr. Vanderostyne, are you in a position to say

 5     whether they were mere soldiers or military police?  You know the

 6     difference.

 7        A.   No, I'm not in a position now to say whether it is military

 8     police or army personnel.  They were army -- they were military people.

 9     There were no police.  That I'm sure.

10        Q.   Okay.  Moving on --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But just to understand you fully, you said there

12     were military people; there were no police.  Do you exclude for the

13     possibility that they were military police, which are military but at the

14     same time police, or would you say these were non-police military?

15             THE WITNESS:  I don't exclude that they were military police

16     because I have not formally identified them as such.  Anyway, it were

17     military positions.  It were defensive positions kind of -- well,

18     defensive positions.  They had pits and there were trees that were --

19     that had barricaded them, so I think, Mr. President, it was, rather,

20     conscripts or -- or common military unit in defensive positions.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

22             Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Now, on that main route you indicated, Mr. Vanderostyne, which

25     you indicated on the map, was there that much of traffic, and I'm

Page 4044

 1     referring to civilian traffic or civilians in numbers, walking through

 2     that area?

 3        A.   No, madam.  There was no traffic at all.

 4        Q.   Now, you said in your statement that as a result of not being

 5     allowed to move on from the military check-points, you were required to

 6     backtrack and take secondary routes to bypass the check-point.

 7             Now, were those secondary routes or did you see much traffic in

 8     those secondary routes or many civilians walking around?

 9        A.   On those secondary roads, I saw no -- no traffic.  There were --

10     yet there were civilians around, yes.  There were -- you had the villages

11     and the hamlets, and there were people around, yes.

12        Q.   Now, I'm not talking about residents of hamlets and the villages

13     you passed through.  But were there -- did you see sort of an influx or

14     people coming into the area through those secondary routes?

15        A.   No madam, absolutely not.

16        Q.   Now, taking you to paragraph 29.  You said -- this is regarding

17     your entry into Gracac.  You say:  "Upon entering Gracac, I saw several

18     houses that were just set on fire.  There was smoke all over the

19     outskirts.  I saw small groups of young men."

20             It goes on.  And then onto the next page, you say:  "I notice

21     many plumes of smoke."  It's -- there's a typo there, indicated as

22     blooms.  "I remarked in my journal that almost all houses in the 50

23     kilometres or so between Gospic and Gracac were destroyed."

24             Then further on, you go on to say:  "The city of Gracac was not

25     yet on fire, but the outskirts was burning."

Page 4045

 1             Now, my question to you is, How big is Gracac and including the

 2     town, that entire area you talk about, the outskirts and the town of

 3     Gracac, how big was that?

 4        A.   Hard to say, but it's a small town -- a small -- really a small

 5     town.  You drive through, and I -- it is a small town.

 6        Q.   Now, based on your observations, according to the topography that

 7     you observed, could you notice the plumes of smoke in the outskirts of

 8     Gracac from the town?

 9        A.   From the town I have seen because I really was not focussed on

10     that.  I had seen it, anyway, entering Gracac, but once I wasn't on that

11     central square I did not look anymore on the fires at the outskirts.

12        Q.   No, my question is not whether you looked.  Based on what you

13     know of Gracac, you know, the topography, for instance, if someone stood

14     in the town and looked up, could they see the smoke around?

15        A.   Oh, yes.  I imagine so, yes.

16        Q.   Taking you to paragraph 38 - and I'm on my last few questions -

17     you refer to -- about the fourth line.  You say:  "There were

18     check-points upon entering Knin, but we were not halted."

19             Can you tell the Court as to who was manning these check-points?

20     Was it the military or the civilian police or some other force?

21        A.   I would think it was the military -- it was -- it were military

22     check-points.  Maybe I have that in my notebook, but ...

23             No, I have no specific mention of that, but Knin was -- the

24     garda, the army was all present, you see?  Before Knin and before Gracac,

25     I had seen -- those were all grey/blue uniforms of ordinary Croatian

Page 4046

 1     police.

 2             In Gracac, it had been the olive-green khaki uniforms of that

 3     Delta unit and in Knin it was the garda, the normal military units and

 4     conscripts.

 5        Q.   Do you recall about how many check-points you had to go through

 6     before you entered Knin?

 7        A.   In all?  Since Zagreb?

 8        Q.   No, no, no.  Just at the point of entry to Knin.  Was there just

 9     one or -- I'm referring to paragraph 38 where you say:  "There were

10     check-points upon entering Knin."  So obviously after entering Knin or

11     maybe just at the point.

12        A.   I think that might be an exaggeration.  Probably there was one

13     check-point.  There might have been others, but it is it not -- I mean, I

14     feel it is not very relevant because I could pass through anyway.

15        Q.   Moving on, taking to you paragraph 31, back again, the last

16     sentence, Mr. Vanderostyne.  You say with regard to your observations:

17     "I witnessed looting and burning" -- No, you go and say "I made a note in

18     my journal that they were leaving their signatures just like I had seen

19     the Serbs do in other places.  I witnessed looting and burning on a major

20     scale."

21             Now, can you clarify what you meant by major scale?

22        A.   Yes, sure, I can.  Looting on -- burning on a major scale, those

23     were not isolated incidents.  It was between Gospic and Gracac.  I don't

24     know what is the distance, but it might -- it is tens of kilometres,

25     maybe 50 kilometres.  I don't know.  Anyway, that can be checked.

Page 4047

 1     Between Gospic and Gracac, the whole countryside was in fire.  And I

 2     remember, Mr. President, at one time we were crossing a little -- a

 3     little -- a small -- a little hill, and -- and you saw the countryside as

 4     far as could you look and everywhere, everywhere, every farm, every barn,

 5     every annex, every house in the countryside, I mean, not in the villages,

 6     but every single building in the countryside was on fire.  So that is

 7     what I mean, on a major scale.

 8             About looting on a major scale, I mean, again, those were not

 9     isolated incidents.  It was organised.  It was -- it happened amongst

10     others by people in uniform, also by civilians, civilians probably --

11     which I interpreted came from the Sibenik Croatian coast.  But there were

12     no -- there were no isolated incidents.

13             In the outskirts of Gracac, I saw trucks fully loaded with booty,

14     I shall call it, coming and going.  I saw police vehicles being loaded

15     with booty.  Not a single one, but several cars and at several places,

16     and I saw at the central square looting, plundering by that Delta unit at

17     several places.  Those were not isolated incidents, and they were

18     organised.  That's what I mean by "major scale."

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vanderostyne.  Just taking you quickly to

20     paragraph 14 of your statement.  Line 3, you say:  "Everywhere we saw a

21     lot of damage as a result of bombardments.  People were scared, and I

22     noted this in my diary."

23             And when say a lot of damage due to bombardment, what are you

24     referring to there?

25        A.   On this precise place, I'm referring to Karlovac, I think, to the

Page 4048

 1     damage I had seen in Karlovac and people that were scared.  Because in

 2     Karlovac, we had left our car and spoken to people and walked around, and

 3     that observation is just after leaving Karlovac.

 4        Q.   That's fine.  Mr. Vanderostyne, just the last question.  If you

 5     could go to paragraph 25.

 6             There, you refer to having written an article with regard to what

 7     you observed, and you say:  "It describes the exodus of the Serbs.  It

 8     was a humiliating experience for them.  On display were 150.000 Serbs

 9     traveling 5 to 10 kilometres per hour through enemy territory."

10             Now, did you see this convoy of refugees that you're referring to

11     in that paragraph?

12        A.   Yes, madam, I did.

13        Q.   Can you say approximately when you saw the convoy of refugees?

14        A.   Yes, I can.  That is after we returned from Sibenik, so in

15     Sibenik we were on the Wednesday, the 9th, visiting the hospital and the

16     victims.  Then I returned to Zagreb, and after Zagreb I moved on for the

17     follow-up story to Osijek in Eastern Slavonia, and that was on that day,

18     so probably three days later along the highway or the express way, and

19     there were both convoys and isolated -- I mean, the highway had been

20     closed off for normal traffic, and Serbs from Krajina were moving in very

21     slow vehicles and wagons towards Serbia.

22        Q.   And when you say three days later, so that brings you around the

23     12th of August, 13th, 14th, that period?

24        A.   Probably it was on Saturday or the Friday, but -- well, I cannot

25     -- unless I should check in my notebook.

Page 4049

 1        Q.   That should be all right.  That's fine, Mr. Vanderostyne.  Thank

 2     you very much.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That concludes the examination, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.  Your estimate of 30,

 5     40 minutes was not of an accuracy which the Chamber prefers.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I apologise, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I -- we could do two things.  We could --

 8     Mr. Mikulicic, we could start now with the cross-examination.  We also

 9     could take an early break.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  I think we could use an early break, especially

11     having in mind the request of the witness before the trial.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then take a break now.  We will resume

13     at ten minutes to 4.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 3.26 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 3.51 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderostyne, you'll now be cross-examined by

17     Mr. Mikulicic, who is counsel for Mr. Markac.

18             Mr. Mikulicic.

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderostyne.  I'm Goran

23     Mikulicic representing General Cermak, just as His Honour the Judge said.

24     I'm going to put a number of questions to you, so I would like to ask you

25     to answer them according to your best recollection.

Page 4050

 1             Sir, can you please tell us why you were surprised when the

 2     Croatian Defence Ministry allowed you to visit the territory that was

 3     liberated in the Storm action?

 4        A.   Yes, I can, sir.  There were of course many, many foreign

 5     journalists in Zagreb awaiting for leaving for Knin, and for one reason

 6     or another, I and my crew and my colleague and the photographer received

 7     that permit and all my other colleagues, all my other colleagues as far

 8     as I know in the Intercon had not received a permit like that, so --

 9     well, that I have no explanation for it, but that was my surprise.

10        Q.   Do you know that during the following next days other journalists

11     also were allowed to visit that area?

12        A.   No, sir, I was not -- I'm not aware of that.

13        Q.   I would like the registry to place the map on the screen, P326,

14     which is the map that the witness previously marked.

15             While we're waiting for the map to appear, you said in your

16     statement, and I'm referring to today's date, that you left the car in

17     Karlovac and that you talked with some people, and also, you said that

18     people were scared because there was a lot of shelling or bombing.

19             Did I understand what you said correctly?

20        A.   Yes, sir.  In Karlovac, I spoke to people and they were scared.

21     There had been shelling and there had been bombing, and some of them, I

22     recall, did not really know where to find refuge or to hide for the

23     shelling.

24        Q.   Did you know which side in the conflict bombarded Karlovac?

25        A.   No, I don't know, sir.  I suppose both sides have met or have --

Page 4051

 1     have exchanged fire, as it happens in war.

 2        Q.   If I were to say to you that throughout the whole wartime period

 3     Karlovac was in Croatian hands and that bit was exclusively bombarded by

 4     the Serbian military forces, would that refresh your memory?

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I think the witness has

 6     answered.  He said that he didn't know about this.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the witness said that he didn't know about it,

 8     Mr. Mikulicic, but I think he was at that moment responding to a question

 9     about that very moment, and now Mr. Mikulicic bit as a surprise refreshes

10     his memory with the whole war period, which of course might not be the

11     same.

12             But do you have any further knowledge about specifically Serbs

13     rather than Croats during the war, shelling Karlovac?

14             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.  It was not my focus.  We were moving into

15     Knin, and that was the focus of that day.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But for the remainder of other periods during

17     the war, are you aware of who would be the primary party to shell

18     Karlovac?

19             THE WITNESS:  Today I'm not.  Probably at that time I had a

20     fresher memory.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] If we follow the route that you marked in red on

24     this map, and if we go back to your testimony, we're going to pass

25     through the towns of Otocac and Gospic.

Page 4052

 1             My question is similar to the one that I asked in reference to

 2     Karlovac.  I'm referring to paragraph 18 of your statement, where you say

 3     that you came to Otocac and that you saw military traces of damage to

 4     houses from shelling.

 5             My question is, Were you aware at the time or today who had

 6     shelled Otocac or, rather, which party to the conflict throughout the

 7     whole war held Otocac in the military sense?

 8        A.   I understand, sir, at that time -- I understood at that time that

 9     there had been an exchange of fire, and which damage was caused by who, I

10     don't know, and I was reporting on war damage at that place.

11        Q.   I understand.  After that, you came to Gospic, and you said you

12     saw the churches were shelled and that that was the first time that you

13     noticed - and I'm referring back to paragraph 20 of your statement - that

14     that was the first time you noticed smoke.  Are you aware, again, who it

15     was who shelled --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Your question started:  "And you said you saw the

17     churches were shelled."  When I read paragraph 20, I see that:  "I saw

18     that a church had been shelled."

19             Therefore, you're --

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will find -- I

21     will follow your guidance.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] My question, sir, is this:  Are you aware who

23     shelled Gospic during the conflict?  Which side also held Gospic in the

24     military sense?

25        A.   You were referring, sir, to that -- to paragraph 20 or ...

Page 4053

 1        Q.   [In English] Yes.  To paragraph 20 and paragraph 21.

 2        A.   Yes.  About paragraph 20, that's -- I refer to my -- to my notes.

 3     That had been written on that very afternoon.  That's between Licki Osik

 4     and Gospic.  Indeed, a church was bombarded.  There was fire and smoke on

 5     the countryside, and I did see, I did observe a group of tanks, tanks, I

 6     mean not -- not armed vehicles but tanks with a cupola and a gun, and the

 7     barrel, the barrel of that gun was still smoking, so I concluded that

 8     that tank, and it was a Croatian tank, had just fired.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you notice in which direction?  Did you

10     notice that, perhaps?

11        A.   It's an interpretation.  My interpretation was that that tank --

12     and I was very surprised by that.  I had not expected that that Croatian

13     tank had shelled farms and had put fire on that farm.  But, again, that's

14     an interpretation.

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for your answer.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I haven't had time to go through all

18     of the disclosures in this case, but if the witness has -- I believe has

19     indicated, in answer to Mr. Mikulicic' question -- let me find the exact

20     line.  Line 17 of page 35, he says that I refer to -- to my notes.  I

21     don't believe we have ever been disclosed a copy of any notes,

22     contemporaneous notes that the witness has taken, and to the extent that

23     he has them in court, we would ask that -- to see if we can get a copy of

24     the witness's notes, if they are contemporaneous notes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We -- Ms. Mahindaratne, the witness earlier

Page 4054

 1     said that he had his notes with him.  Are there specific reasons why you

 2     have not -- do you have a copy of the notes?

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  The witness brought his

 4     notes to proofing sessions, and he said that he has his notes, and during

 5     the proofing session, of course, he went through it.  We did not obtain a

 6     copy, nor did I examine his notes.  They were his personal notes, and I

 7     told him he was free to bring it to court, and if the Defence wishes to

 8     examine the notes, the Defence -- I would have no objection,

 9     Mr. President.  But we did not think it was necessary to obtain his

10     personal notes, which he has kept in his custody all along, and the

11     witness did not turn it over to the members of the Office of the

12     Prosecutor at the time he made the statement to us.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You never asked for it.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  We never asked for it.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  I am aware of a precedent in the Krajisnik case

18     where I believe a similar situation arose where a witness brought

19     contemporaneous notes into Court.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that a journalist as well?

21             MR. MISETIC:  I don't know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Because there, of course -- let's first ask the

23     witness what his position is.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, sir.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you be willing to share your notes with the

Page 4055

 1     parties, which would mean that most likely the Chamber might see them

 2     sooner or later as well.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I have no objection, sir.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no objections.  Are they in such a form

 5     that it can be easily copied?  I can imagine that --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Oh, yes.  They can easily be copied.  No problem.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And these notes you have brought with you, do they

 8     cover -- what period of time?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Maybe for your Court, the most interesting would be

10     about that Tuesday, 8th of August, I would suppose.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then up to and -- Mr. Misetic.

12             MR. MISETIC:  To the extent he has notes from, let's say, 4

13     August to whenever he left the theatre, that would -- that is what we

14     would consider to be relevant, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then another question.  In what language are

16     these notes written?

17             THE WITNESS:  They were written first in Dutch, but, of course,

18     it's written on that very afternoon, intense conditions, and I have a

19     personal system of taking notes.  Sometimes it's only words, are you

20     writing on the right hand page, on the left hand page.  It is up to you.

21     I have no problem, but it's maybe rather difficult to find your way in

22     that book.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that from apart from the

24     language, which I might be the only one who could read it.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Actually, Your Honour, I have someone on staff who

Page 4056

 1     speaks both Belgian and Dutch, so we would be able to go through it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Misetic, the Belgian language is --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Well -- sorry.  He's from Belgium, so -- he's from

 4     Belgium.  Sorry, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Some Belgians say they speak Flemish, and

 6     others say they speak in the Walloonic language.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  We could call it B/C/S, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try -- let's see how we can -- how we can have

 9     these notes copied because I take it that you would like to keep the

10     original.

11             THE WITNESS:  I would like so, but I -- I leave it to you, sir.

12     Anyway, if he's speaking about that full week, it is covering two books,

13     two books like this.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  Practical solution for this.  As a matter of

15     fact, I would like to invite you to give the originals at this very

16     moment to Mr. Usher, which would disable you to further consult your

17     notes during the examination, which I don't know to what --

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether that would be a problem for you.

20             THE WITNESS:  It is not a problem, but I think it is helpful if I

21     can go through my original notes of that day.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So now, of course I am a bit stuck here at this

23     moment because the parties would like to see it as soon as they can.  Is

24     there any way that you could just briefly, if the parties would agree,

25     just briefly give the two notes to Mr. Usher so that we can see how much

Page 4057

 1     material it is and to see how quickly it could be copied.

 2             Yes.  If you would just give it to Mr. Usher so that I can have a

 3     look at.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I believe one of the reasons I did not think

 7     it was necessary for the Prosecution to ask for these notes during the

 8     course of the proofing is because it seemed to me as if what is stated,

 9     what is noted in the notebooks are practically reproduced in the

10     witness's statements, and that's how I understood because he practically

11     repeated what was given in the statements, so ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I take it that the Defence wants to verify

13     that.  That's what --

14             Let me just -- I'm looking at it.  You'd said the period covers

15     two of these books.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I'm taking quite extensive notes, but they

17     are also very precise.  And that was by purpose.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But this, for example, I see here a date of

19     September 16th.  Is that already in this book or -- I'm just trying to

20     identify ... I'm not reading it all.  I'm just trying to find where it --

21     where to find dates.

22             THE WITNESS:  That book starts with the trip from Zagreb over

23     Karlovac to -- to Knin and Sibenik.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             THE WITNESS:  And if you allow, sir, my statement, my written

Page 4058

 1     statement or my -- my testimony is almost literally following those

 2     notes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm just trying to ... I'm just trying to find

 4     a clue to as how much copying would be needed because your statement goes

 5     until ...

 6             Yes, your statement is mainly about Karlovac and how you

 7     travelled, and that's the -- is there any way that you could indicate in

 8     this booklet where approximately your statement stops?  Because the first

 9     day is quite clear, that is to say Karlovac where the -- where the red

10     tag is.  Is there any way that the witness would be provided with a

11     similar tag to see where -- yes, I see.

12             Mr. -- well, from all sides we get text.  Would it be possible

13     for you to indicate where, approximately where your statement stops,

14     where it stops in this booklet?

15             And then I suggest - Mr. Misetic, you asked for it - that we ask

16     that portion to be copied.

17             MR. MISETIC:  If I may, Your Honour, that portion up to where it

18     ends but also if -- he does make references to a few days prior to his

19     trip, so to the extent that the 4th of August onward can be copied.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  This is Wednesday -- so the Tuesday, Tuesday is this

21     part.

22             MR. MISETIC:  But for example, paragraph 6, Your Honour, talks

23     about his arrival in Zagreb on the 5th.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you try to organise this, Mr. Vanderostyne.

25     Could you put a tag not on the day where you left -- where you were in

Page 4059

 1     Karlovac and where you left, but two or three days prior to that.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Prior?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Prior to that, yes.  Or are we, then, in the other

 4     booklet?

 5             THE WITNESS:  It's the other booklet.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the other booklet.  Mr. Misetic, we're now in

 7     the other booklet.

 8             Let's, then, first focus on --

 9             Could you perhaps in the other booklet indicate three, four days

10     before the new booklet starts?  Yes.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I could just refresh the witness's

12     recollection.  He speaks in paragraph 6 of a meeting with Brigadier

13     Peeters.  If I could have the notes of that, and it actually references

14     that you arrived on the 5th of August, so from the 5th of August onward,

15     I would be grateful.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you could just -- it doesn't make much

17     sense to explain everything to Mr. Usher who is not in a position to --

18             If you could find where it starts on -- I think you said on the

19     5th of August, Mr. Misetic, to put a marker there.  And then in the next

20     book, starting with Karlovac, that you take -- let me just -- I think

21     that the last event described there is about what happened in Cenici at

22     some ten kilometres south of Knin on the way to Sibenik.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That -- could you please put a tag there as well.

25             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.  It is done.

Page 4060

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And then, could I then have both booklets.

 2             Yes, is there -- Mr. Registrar, is there any way that we could

 3     have ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderostyne, we'll try to do a quick copying

 6     exercise.

 7             Mr. Misetic, from what I've seen already, and it might be quite a

 8     job to have this put in a format which is legible.  I think most of it

 9     would be very difficult to read, as a matter of fact, although you could

10     decipher some words.  But let's first -- then at least it is available,

11     and then the parties can further consider what to do with it.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Could -- when the first full book is copied, could the other book

15     perhaps remain in the hands of the witness because that seems to be the

16     -- or that that is first copied, the second book.

17                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I saw that there were also some loose leafs in

19     there, in the books.  That apparently is not part of the sequence of

20     notes.

21             First, the beginning of the second booklet will be copied so that

22     that can be returned immediately to you so that it's available for

23     further consultation.

24             Mr. Mikulicic, after this intermezzo, please proceed.

25             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will go on.

Page 4061

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not receive English translation on channel 4 at

 3     this moment.

 4             Could you please re-start, Mr. Mikulicic.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.  Is it okay now?

 6             THE WITNESS:  It's all right now.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you speak English, Mr. Mikulicic, then it's a bit

 8     difficult to verify whether the translation is okay, but I appreciate

 9     your help.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  I try to communicate directly from the --

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vanderostyne, the topic that we touched upon

14     before the intermezzo, as His Honour the Presiding Judge said, you were

15     not aware that the cities of Karlovac, Gospic, and Otocac were in

16     Croatian hands and that they were shelled and bombarded by the Serbian

17     side.  Is that correct?

18        A.   My conclusion is there had been war and both sides had -- had

19     been in confrontation and both sides had been used to arms.  That was my

20     -- that was my conclusion, yes.

21        Q.   Of course, that's a very logical reply but not to my question,

22     Mr. Vanderostyne.  I asked you, were you aware that the towns of

23     Karlovac, Gospic, and Otocac were in Croatian hands and that they were

24     bombarded by Serbian military forces?  That was my question.

25        A.   You're referring to when?  When were they in Croatian hands?

Page 4062

 1        Q.   Throughout the war.

 2        A.   Between 1991 and 1995?

 3        Q.   That's correct.

 4        A.   So Karlovac, yes, sure, sure.  Otocac, yes, sure.  Gospic, I

 5     could not -- no, I don't know.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   Thank you for your answer.

 7             Your route further continued in the direction of Gracac, and you

 8     went through numerous villages that you said had been burned and

 9     destroyed and so on and so forth.

10             This was a territory of the former Republic of the Serbian

11     Krajina.  Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, indeed, yeah.

13        Q.   Are you aware that this territory that was the Republic of

14     Serbian Krajina, that earlier on in some of those villages Croatians

15     lived as well?

16        A.   Sure I did, yeah.

17        Q.   During your journey when you noticed these damages to the

18     buildings, were you able to tell apart, to differentiate between the

19     buildings that had been destroyed earlier and those that were destroyed

20     during Operation Storm?

21        A.   In general, I was able.  Yes, sir.  You could see the ruins of

22     what I call the -- what is it, the 1991 war or -- when the Serbia or Serb

23     troops had conquered Croatian territory.  You could see those ruins.

24     Those were old ruins.  They had been overgrown, and they were not

25     burning.  Those were clearly old ruins that you could very -- very well

Page 4063

 1     make the difference between old ruins and fresh -- fresh burning.  Yes,

 2     sure.

 3        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, would you please now see a short video-clip

 4     together with us.  It is about three minutes long.  This is 3D00-0814.

 5     Just to say that this is a video-clip that was recorded on the 5th of

 6     August, 1995, when the logistics forces of the Special Police entered

 7     Gracac.

 8                           [Videotape played]

 9             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, did you go through this village, Sveti Rok?

11     Can you recall?

12        A.   I don't know this video, sir.  I can only -- I can only give

13     testimony about what I have seen.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's right, and it is very good that you

15     make this observation.

16             The question was, I don't know whether you on your way you passed

17     through any village by the name of Sveti Rok.

18             THE WITNESS:  I do not remind that -- I do not recall that, no.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

20             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] We can resume.

21                           [Videotape played]

22             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Sempre Gracac, here we go.

23             This could be Ricice here; also was a Croatian village.

24             You know it's a Croatian village as it was burnt down.

25             Of course.

Page 4064

 1             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, do you remember that on your way to Gracac you

 3     went through the village of Ricice?

 4        A.   No, sir, I do not.  I do not recall that name, no.

 5        Q.   On the route that you marked on the map, both of these villages

 6     are on the route, both Sveti Rok and Ricice.  That is the reason why I

 7     was asking whether you could recall it.

 8             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] We can go on.

 9                           [Videotape played]

10             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Everything is really burnt down

11     here.

12             Where is the eff UNPROFOR now to ask whose [illegible]."

13             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Here, Mr. Vanderostyne, you see this sign-post to Gracac.  It is

15     not very legible, but can you read it, actually.  Can you recall this?

16        A.   No, I do not recall it, but I imagine I have seen it, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] We can go on.

19                           [Videotape played]

20             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Gracac.

21             On a bicycle, huh?"

22             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, you could see that this is the entry to Gracac.

24     Can you recall the UNPROFOR base?

25        A.   No, sir, I do not.

Page 4065

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, you said -- could we turn back.  You

 2     said this is the entrance of Gracac.  Where do we see that, and where is

 3     the witness supposed to see that?

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, that was my --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, that's -- yes, yes.  Well --

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  That was my interpretation.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the witness -- yes.  The witness gives evidence,

 8     Mr. Mikulicic --

 9             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.  I'm sorry.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and not you.  Please proceed.

11                           [Videotape played]

12             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] It's the UNPROFOR base, okay.

13             There are still a few of those antennas."

14             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, do you remember this intersection at the very

16     approach, on the very approaches to Gracac, where you go -- if you turn

17     to the right, you would go to the railway station; to the left, you would

18     go to Gracac; and if you continue straight on, that would be the road to

19     Zagreb and further on to the north?

20        A.   No, sir.  Excuse me, but this is 13 years ago.  I only rely on my

21     own notes, what I -- and I stick to that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there is no reason to apologise.  Just tell us

23     if you don't know, and if you would know, please tell us as well.  Please

24     proceed.

25             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's been a long time, and

Page 4066

 1     of course you cannot recall every detail.

 2                           [Videotape played]

 3             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Buffet Joco."

 4             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We're now in Gracac downtown.  This is a buffet called Joco.  Can

 6     you recall this location?

 7                           [Videotape played]

 8             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, now we're in Gracac.  You said that you went

10     through Gracac.  You cannot, of course, confirm this, but I'm telling you

11     that this is the route that you took and that you then went back and

12     stopped at the main square.

13        A.   That's right, yeah.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, may I first ask you, is this the

16     route the witness took, and is it the route as he took it?  That means

17     that he came from Karlovac and then turning to the south and then more to

18     the east or is it ...

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is precisely the route

20     that the witness took on that very day, between villages Sveti Rok and

21     the exit of Gracac, so this is precisely that route.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One of the things that came into my mind, that

23     there was a clear sign that you would head for a -- not an intersection

24     but how you call it, a three -- where to the right it went to Zagreb and

25     to the left it went to Zadar.

Page 4067

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  That was on the exit of the village of Gracac,

 2     where the cross-roads is.  You can remember that we were talking about

 3     this cross-roads that has been shelled.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I was just -- Mr. Mikulicic in

 6     fact suggested to the witness that this was the route that the witness

 7     took, but we have no indication as to who made this tape.  Now, there's a

 8     indication it's 5th -- on 5th August 1995.  I don't know whether

 9     Mr. Mikulicic intends to call the witness or someone who was present

10     while this footage was made to clearly indicate what areas this camera is

11     being taken through.

12             Considering that the witness does not recognise the scenery, I do

13     not see a basis for Mr. Mikulicic to suggest that this was in fact the

14     route that the witness took.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Mikulicic, could you -- yes.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  What I could propose, Your Honour -- yes.  It is

17     my statement that this was the route based on the witness facts which he

18     took on that particular day.  I was hoping that the witness would

19     recognise the route that he took, but, unfortunately he did not.  There

20     is no other way towards Gracac from the direction of Sveti Rok and

21     Ricice.  There is only a south road around Gracac that the witness

22     obviously did not take that day.

23             And we will call the witness who can prove that the footage was

24     really made on this day and on that very route.

25             So what I ask for the moment is that this video could be marked

Page 4068

 1     for identification.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any objections?

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D294 marked for identification, Your

 6     Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Mikulicic, if at any later stage you come

 8     with a witness or with further details about this video, would you also,

 9     then, please bring a very, very, very, detailed map, which allows us,

10     whenever there is an road sign to the left there, to the right there,

11     which enables us to verify what road it approximately was, because that

12     would certainly assist.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Because one of the questions, if I look at some

15     detail to the map the witness gave us.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Mm-hm.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And if I zoom in on the area of Gracac --

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  You will see, Your Honour, in a direction of

19     north-west the village of Ricice and after that --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  Let me first try to find that.

21             I have zoomed in extremely ...

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  It's a little bit on the left from Gracac, in the

23     north-east direction.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

25             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, now we have a blow-up on the screen, and if

Page 4069

 1     you follow the red line, towards left, from Gracac, you will find the

 2     village of Ricice.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  And afterwards where the mark six is and a little

 5     bit on the left, the village of Rok, which is Sveti Rok.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  And further on, it's Gospic, which is on top of

 8     the screen not visible for the moment in that blow-up.

 9             So that was the route that witness took on that particular day.

10        Q.   Isn't it right, Mr. Vanderostyne?

11        A.   It is right, to the best of my knowledge, yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And now, where at the exit of Gracac, Mr. Mikulicic,

13     you consider --

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  For that particular --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the left and right where it goes to the right to

16     Zagreb --

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will provide a better map if you wish, Your

18     Honour, just for your information, and that will be clearly seen on that

19     map.

20             If the usher could please pull up the 3D00-0387.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Because my -- I'll tell you why I'm asking it.  My

22     logic tells me that if you are travelling in the direction as the witness

23     indicated, that if you want to go to Zagreb you rather turn to the left,

24     not to the right.  But it might be a local -- but that's -- here we have

25     Gracac.

Page 4070

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Misetic.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  I believe -- and I'm sure you will correct me if

 4     I'm wrong, but if we replay the video, I believe the sign actually said

 5     right to Zadar, left to Zagreb. [Sic]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's replay it, then.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yeah.  It's on the screen right now, Your Honour.

 8     I'm sorry, I --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm sorry -- yes, I might have did write it down,

10     but I might have made a mistake.

11                           [Videotape played]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's to the right, to Zagreb -- yes, you're

13     right.  I did write it down.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Both name it's beginning with Z, so --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I apologise for taking your time with that.

16             Then --

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  I think it's --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear myself in an echo, which is not very

19     pleasant.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  Although are you not in Switzerland.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.  Please proceed.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.  If you wish we

23     could pull up the map --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Not at this moment.  First of all, I fully admit

25     that I made a mistake here, which caused me to ask further questions.

Page 4071

 1             Let move on.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vanderostyne, you returned to downtown

 4     Gracac, in the centre.  You parked the car there and got out of the car.

 5     And then you saw a large group of uniformed men for whom you later

 6     established that they were members of the Delta unit of the Special

 7     Police.

 8             Have I understood your evidence correctly?

 9        A.   [No audible response]

10        Q.   You then approached an individual because you had been told that

11     he was the commander of this unit, and you called this person a

12     lieutenant.  That's what you used in your statement, correct?

13        A.   [Previous translation continues] ...

14        Q.   Tell me, please, how did you learn that this person was a

15     lieutenant?  Did he tell you, or did you find out in some other way?

16        A.   I asked in -- so in the first place I approached a little group.

17     It was not an individual, a little group of relaxed khaki uniforms, I

18     will call them:  The accordion player, the man with the straw hat, the

19     man -- it was a little group.  And it's at that group that I have asked

20     rather fast, quickly, Who is your lieutenant?  And he said, That man.

21     And I then moved towards the person who -- who was said to me to be the

22     lieutenant, the commander of the unit.  That's how I understood.

23        Q.   My question was, Did this person say that he was a lieutenant, or

24     was it something that you actually suggested?  That was the gist of my

25     question.

Page 4072

 1        A.   No, sir.  I asked, Who is your lieutenant?  And that man, that

 2     Croatian man, directed me towards this man.

 3        Q.   Did you notice on this man's uniform any emblems or any markings

 4     showing what rank he held?

 5        A.   The only emblem I have noticed is the MUP, which he showed me

 6     himself.

 7        Q.   While you were talking with this man, this commander, your

 8     photographer was making photos.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   That's correct, yes.

10        Q.   Was he banned from taking photos?  Was he forbidden or prohibited

11     by someone?

12        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... not.

13        Q.   Could we please now call up P325.  It's a series of four

14     photographs that were introduced into evidence by the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, when waiting for this, I noticed,

16     Mr. Vanderostyne, and -- that this morning you were asked or at least you

17     said, I asked him very quickly, who is your commander?  Who is in charge?

18     And he showed me on the opposite of the street or the opposite of the

19     square, and did I that in order to everyone should --

20             Your question, as you formulated it earlier today was that you

21     asked, Who is your commander?  Whereas now, you formulate your question

22     as who is your lieutenant?

23             Could you help us out, which words you exactly used, and --

24             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.  I cannot 13 years later, which words I

25     used exactly, I cannot, no.

Page 4073

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, you also -- can you tell us

 2     whether anyone confirmed if you would use the words or if you have not

 3     used the words informed you that the man in command was a lieutenant?

 4             THE WITNESS:  You see, sir, Mr. President, the unit I observed

 5     was -- had the kind of size of -- of what -- what I would call a company,

 6     a company's 100 men, military or paramilitary unit.  At the command of a

 7     company is a lieutenant or a captain, but he is the commander, he is in

 8     charge, and that was the meaning of my question to one subordinate, one

 9     common -- not an army man but one policemen of that unit who is in

10     charge, who can I speak to, who is responsible guy, who is -- who can --

11     it's not just a small talk I had to -- small questions I had to ask.  I

12     wanted someone who was in charge, whether he is a lieutenant or a captain

13     or whether those uniformed people had -- had -- had rank insignia.  I can

14     imagine that special troops have no rank insignia, but that was not my

15     focus.  I wanted someone who was in charge.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, Mr. Mikulicic.

17             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Let's take a look at this photo, Mr. Vanderostyne.

19             Would you agree with me that these two uniformed individuals are

20     actually posing for your photographer?

21        A.   Whether they are posing, sir, is an interpretation, and you can

22     read that picture in several ways.  What I read in it is that they are

23     relaxed, so they are part.  I explained that there are two groups.  One

24     group was -- was looting; one group was relaxed, drinking wine, playing

25     accordion, cutting hair, and so on.  Are they posing for the

Page 4074

 1     photographer?  In my view, they are not.  It is a kind of relaxed

 2     attitude of -- of men that have finished, that have completed operation.

 3             That is my interpretation.

 4        Q.   In the upper right-hand corner of the photograph, you can see the

 5     yellow bus.  Did you ask the commander, the person that you talked with,

 6     what they were actually doing here and what was that bus going to be used

 7     for?

 8        A.   There was -- those are two questions.

 9        Q.   [In English] Sorry.  Just one after another.

10        A.   I did ask the commander or that person what his unit was doing,

11     and he -- he answered, to make the city vrij, so that is a combination of

12     English and German that I have literally -- that you will see in that

13     notebook.  What are you doing, what is your unit doing, what is your

14     mission to make this city vrij?  So that's is an indication to me that I

15     spoke English and German one through another.

16             Your other question is, did I ask that person what that bus was

17     for.  It is possible.  It's possible.

18             Anyway, I'm sure, and that's in my notebook, that person said our

19     job is almost completed, which means, in my opinion, we're going back

20     home.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Are you aware or do you know what was in this

22     yellow building behind the bus?  What was the purpose of that building at

23     the time when you arrived at Gracac?

24             If I were to tell you, Mr. Vanderostyne, that this was the

25     logistics staff of the Special Police in Gracac, would that refresh your

Page 4075

 1     memory?

 2        A.   No, I have no -- I don't know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I did not hear the answer to the question when it

 4     was still put as an open question.

 5             When you were asked what was the purpose of that building at the

 6     time when you arrived Gracac, what answer did you give?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Now?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Mr. Mikulicic, on the record we see a first

 9     question, whether you know; and then there's no answer.  And then

10     Mr. Mikulicic is on the record continuing by saying, "if I were to tell

11     you, Mr. Vanderostyne."

12             But, Mr. Mikulicic, have you waited for an answer?  Have you

13     received an answer?

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  I think I did.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that's not on the record.  That's the --

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  I'm sorry.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you're --

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  No, I should check --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to apologize for that.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  I should check the transcript before I pose

21     another question.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And I also did not hear any answer translated to us.

23             May I take it that your answer, that did you not know?

24             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.  I do not know, I did not know what the

25     purpose of that being was for.

Page 4076

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then -- that's clear.  That is now on the

 2     record.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask the registry to

 5     show us P324, please.

 6        Q.   While we're waiting for the photograph to appear on the screen,

 7     Mr. Vanderostyne, you said a number of times how uniformed persons were

 8     looting in Gracac.  Did you see that yourself, personally?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   Can you describe to us when you saw this?  What were the

11     circumstances?

12        A.   I saw it at least two occasions.  First was when I entered

13     Gracac, so that was in -- at the outskirts.  What I call the outskirts is

14     when I entered at the right-hand side of the road.  When I entered I saw

15     policemen, so I'm speaking about grey -- grey/blue uniforms, policemen,

16     taking booty, looting, looting houses at the outskirts.  I saw police

17     vehicles being loaded with booty, and there were civilian trucks being

18     loaded -- loaded, as well, at that -- in that precise spot.  There was

19     also burning, but that is not your question, I understand.

20             I saw also looting by khaki uniform in -- in and around the city

21     square, centre square, yes.

22        Q.   Can you describe to us what war booty is.  What kind of items are

23     that, according to what you saw?

24        A.   Yes.  Well, I can only refer to -- to -- to those notes.  I have

25     --

Page 4077

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 2        A.   Well, if you allow me.

 3             It's -- of course, it's examples and I -- you may well

 4     understand, sir, I do not know -- I do not write every single experience,

 5     but what I have written about the centre of -- of Gracac and in

 6     particular about the blue -- blue -- blue truck with the Cyrillic letters

 7     is hifi television, shoes, bags, and suitcases.

 8        Q.   When you're talking about the blue truck, is it this truck that

 9     we see on the photograph and you also see it in front of you on the

10     monitor?

11        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... so, but I rely on my notes,

12     and that's what I have seen, and I'm sure, I am sure; I am standing with

13     that, whether that is the same.  I see a blue truck, and I see khaki

14     uniform, and I see one carrying something that seems to be a television

15     set or so.

16        Q.   That is my next question, Mr. Vanderostyne.  This object that

17     this person is obviously holding, is it a document box, or is it a TV

18     set, or is it something else?  Did you personally see this?

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, this is a matter to place

20     before the Trial Chamber in -- the witness has clearly testified as to

21     what it seems like.  He is just submitted the photograph, and I think the

22     matter now before Trial Chamber to make an interpretation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  There are two different matters.  The first one is

24     what the witness saw, and I think he has clearly explained that; and the

25     second issue is whether he saw the scene which is photographed or that

Page 4078

 1     his answers to what he had seen refers to -- although nearby, same

 2     village, but --

 3             So when you said relying on your notes you saw TVs being looted,

 4     hifi TVs, were you referring to what we see at the photograph now, or is

 5     it ...

 6             THE WITNESS:  Mr. President, sir, I rely on my notes and my notes

 7     on Gracac, on the -- that central square, and that is readable, I think,

 8     is a blue truck with Cyrillic letters is being loaded with hifi

 9     televisions, shoes, bags and suitcases, and I have written next to it,

10     and that's, of course, my own interpretation, war booty.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I can follow that because I can read your

12     Dutch.  It is actually in the little booklet, the second one.

13             So relying on your notes, do you now think that you described

14     what you see on this picture, or was it -- might have been another blue

15     car, or don't you know?

16             THE WITNESS:  That picture is definitely taken in Gracac centre.

17     However, sir, the photographer has -- I was not always next to him, as I

18     explained.  He has taken pictures on the central square itself and in a

19     -- in a side road of the central square.  I was not present in that side

20     road of the central square, but I have seen, I did see a blue truck with

21     -- et cetera.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Might be the same; might be another one than

23     the one on this photograph.

24             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, does that --

Page 4079

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] You personally did not see this person stealing

 3     a television set and treating it as war booty.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   No.  I mean, I did see it myself, of course, because that is what

 5     I have written that afternoon.

 6        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, let's look at the two persons who are on the

 7     left side of the photograph.  Can you recognize who these persons are?

 8     Are these persons wearing uniforms, or are they civilians?

 9        A.   I agree that this -- these -- this is not very clear, just as the

10     President has said earlier in the session.  I don't know.  And again, I'm

11     not sure that I have witnessed that exactly scene, that picture.  I was

12     not always next to the -- by the contrary, I was not always next to the

13     photographer.

14        Q.   Thank you for that answer.

15             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we know show a photograph of

16     this truck, marked 9980.  I don't know exactly where it is in this

17     sequence of photographs, but it is marked 9980.  I assume that it's the

18     next one.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  I selected only the four

20     relevant prints.  9980 is not part of the exhibit.

21             MR. MIKULICIC: [In English] Okay.  Could I then ask the usher to

22     blow up this picture.  That's the one.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, even if you didn't use it, is it

24     uploaded, this photograph, in e-court so that we're not --

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I don't believe so, Mr. President.  I think

Page 4080

 1     these photographs in fact were uploaded separately.  They were given

 2     separate 65 ter numbers previously and then amalgamated into one exhibit

 3     form.  So I don't think -- if I may have a minute, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Are these photographs anywhere available in --

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It is, Mr. President.  It is available

 6     electronically, but I don't know if it has been released.  I think there

 7     is a system there -- may I just have a minute, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you could please try to assist us, and

 9     meanwhile, Mr. Mikulicic, you may proceed.

10             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   While we're waiting for the photograph, we will be seeing

12     actually also the other side, the left side of the vehicle.  I would just

13     like to point out to you that this large sign in the middle of the truck

14     written in Cyrillic, in the Cyrillic script, is actually street sign.

15     This is not a registration plate, a vehicle licence plate.  It's a street

16     sign?

17        A.   Might well be.

18        Q.   Did you see signs like this on houses in Gracac or anywhere where

19     you were passing through?

20        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... street signs in Cyrillic

21     letters.  I cannot recall.  Probably -- probably yes.  I would be -- I

22     would be surprised if there were not.

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [In English] Mr. Usher, could we see this photo.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could it be that --

25             MR. MIKULICIC:  It's written in Cyrillic Ulica Nemanjina, as far

Page 4081

 1     as I understand the Cyrillic letters.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] So this is a photograph of that same truck.

 3     Mr. Vanderostyne, I would like to draw your attention to the front left

 4     part of the truck where you can see the registration sign.  It's a

 5     licence plate indicating a police vehicle.

 6             Can you please tell us if you saw such licence plates on vehicles

 7     -- on other vehicles as you were travelling through that area in Croatia?

 8        A.   No, sir, I cannot.  Absolutely not.

 9             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

10     photograph, please, and I hope that Ms. Mahindaratne will be able to

11     assist us by providing the electronic number of this item.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President, but we would need a little

14     bit of time, not immediately.  I have asked that it be released, but it

15     takes a little while to --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you have located it and you're in a

17     position to upload it into e-court so that it can be electronically --

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Registrar, the photograph of a blue

20     truck but now taken a little bit more from the left-hand side and

21     including a licence plate would be number ...

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D295, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D295.  And we will wait with a decision, but there's

24     no objection.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.

Page 4082

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no objection, so once it is -- that's

 2     admitted into evidence but subject to being electronically uploaded in

 3     the system.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if that doesn't happen in the

 5     course of this session that -- I just want to indicate it might not

 6     happen before the break, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take that this is an administrative matter

 8     rather than anything else.

 9             MR. MIKULICIC:  [In English] Could I proceed, Your Honour?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The only thing, Mr. Mikulicic, that comes into

11     my mind is -- is the following.  Of course, the witness could not confirm

12     that it is a police registration number, but what -- let's just assume

13     that on the -- that this is a police vehicle.  What is the Chamber

14     supposed to -- to understand from this?  That -- I mean, I can -- just

15     two options.  One would the police is in the exercise of its legal

16     functions, that is perhaps is there an order to seize or -- other option

17     would that the police is involved in looting.  I mean, these are two

18     extremes.  But it's unclear to me how we have to understand this and what

19     was on your mind when you asked these questions and when you showed these

20     photographs.

21             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my position is

22     this.  What the witness saw was the preparation of the unit of the

23     Special Police to leave Gracac after they had completed their assignment

24     on the front, after the logis -- they were loading their equipment from

25     the logistics staff into their truck, including computers, televisions,

Page 4083

 1     documents, and other equipment.

 2             What the witness saw, he actually interpreted during those 15

 3     minutes that he spent in Gracac as looting, and actually that is not what

 4     it as.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, at least it's your position that is not

 6     what it was.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Well, when they were packing and moving back home

 8     there would have been no reason for being aggressive against the

 9     photographer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although no question was asked to you,

11     Mr. Vanderostyne --

12             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I understand that you --

14             Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

15             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16             On the basis of this response that the witness gave us, my next

17     question -- unfortunately we don't have any more of -- of the photograph

18     on the monitor, but the person that is next to the truck is actually

19     looking at the photographer and they are smiling.  They don't seem to be

20     aggressive in any way.  They are actually -- it seems or it appears that

21     they're actually posing.

22             Perhaps we can put the photograph back on the monitor for the

23     witness to look at it again.

24        A.   There is no need.  I can answer that, Mr. President, and in fact,

25     I have done already so earlier in this session.  I have seen that in

Page 4084

 1     other war situations, as well, there is a kind of -- it's exactly -- it's

 2     correct what -- what Mr. Defence is saying.  This is not an aggressive

 3     posture at that time, and I have seen that, noticed that in other war --

 4     war situations, very much so.  There's a kind of pride or proud -- excuse

 5     me.  People feel proud --

 6        Q.   [In English] I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Vanderostyne --

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. President, I

 8     think the witness is answering.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  Well, I didn't ask the witness for his

11     conclusions.  I didn't ask him to compare the wars all over the world

12     because all we know is that each war is different from another war.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Each war is different.  At the same time,

14     Mr. Mikulicic, of course, you are -- where the witness clearly testified

15     that hifi TVs, shoes, other items --

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  And the big bags.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, bags but also other matters, that where he

18     testified that you more or less wanted him to conclude that the context

19     was such that it was not looting.  Of course, there's some element of

20     conclusion in looting.  There's some element of conclusion in not

21     looting.  I mean, that -- it is all -- as the witness clearly explained,

22     he interprets what he has seen, and he earlier said -- and the reference

23     to other war situations was only marginal because earlier he said that he

24     noticed at the time not in other wars but here that they apparently took

25     some pride in what was happening, and then he was certainly not referring

Page 4085

 1     to any other war situation.  The only thing he now added that such an

 2     attitude appears to him familiar, having been in other war situations.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vanderostyne, before the Operation Storm,

 6     were you ever on the territory of the so-called Republic of Serbian

 7     Krajina?

 8        A.   Before -- before the Operation Storm, well, I -- I had been, sir,

 9     in Baranja which I was formerly part of republic of Krajina.

10        Q.   With all due respect, Mr. Vanderostyne, Baranja is in a

11     completely different part of the Republic of Croatia, to the east.  We're

12     talking about the southern part.

13             So my question was whether you were in that southern area around

14     Knin, before the Operation Storm?

15        A.   In the Krajina part of -- well, Krajina republic -- what the

16     Serbs called Republic of Krajina I think -- I had not been before, no.

17        Q.   Before that time, were you familiar with the tasks, positions,

18     and functions of the Special Police of the Ministry of Interior of the

19     Republic of Croatia?

20        A.   No, I was not.

21        Q.   Were you aware what the assignment of the Special Police was in

22     Operation Storm?

23        A.   No, not at all, sir.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

25     further questions.  That concludes my examination.

Page 4086

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Mikulicic, other counsel have indicated that they would have

 3     no questions.  Does that remain still your position?

 4             Yes.

 5             Ms. Mahindaratne.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I have just one question, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8                           Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

 9        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, you were shown a picture -- that picture where

10     a person was seen loading the blue vehicle with something square, and

11     there were two persons in the background.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  I object, Your Honour.  I must object, Your

13     Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  It is not clearly from the picture whether this

16     person is loading or unloading the vehicle.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.  That's not -- that

18     wasn't the question --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But nevertheless, a person.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Carrying --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- carrying -- whether loading or unloading with but

22     in a movement which suggests that at least that object is put in or put

23     out of that truck -- yes, you have been shown a photo in which the square

24     object was handled this way close to this truck, yes, and then your

25     question, Ms. Mahindaratne, would be?

Page 4087

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 2        Q.   And there were two other persons in the background, and you were

 3     asked about their attire.

 4             Now, on 8 August, do you recall seeing any civilians in the

 5     Gracac town; do you recall?

 6        A.   I have seen civilians in -- at the outskirts of Gracac, working

 7     together or close by those grey/blue uniformed police.

 8        Q.   Mr. Vanderostyne, my question, was Gracac town where you saw the

 9     khaki-attired men?

10        A.   No, madam, I did not.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That is all, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one question for you about this bus.

16             It was not entirely clear what this bus was for.  The job was

17     almost done, would they return home apparently somewhere else?  It was

18     not fully clear to me what you told us that you understood at that time,

19     the bus was for.

20        A.   What I understood, sir, is definitely that that bus would take

21     that unit back to their area of origin, Vinkovci.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23        A.   That is sure definitely what I understood at that time, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The bus was waiting for them once finished to take

25     them back to --

Page 4088

 1        A.   That was my interpretation -- well, it was my interpretation, or

 2     someone has told me so, but that was definitely what I understood, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.  And I have a small

 4     question for you, Mr. Mikulicic.

 5             The witness said that he thought that the place where he had been

 6     was formerly part of the republic of Serbian Krajina, which of course was

 7     not just Sector South or Sector North, you had also other sectors, where

 8     you said that that was not what you asked for.  Is it that you contest

 9     that where the witness had been was part of Serbian Krajina, or that you

10     --

11             MR. MIKULICIC:  No, I'm not.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you're not.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  I'm just contesting whether even Slavonia was

14     part of the Krajina.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but of course your question was -- you more or

16     less blamed the witness for --

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  Maybe I --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and you said -- I asked you what you asked him.

19     I think he answered that perfectly right.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So that has been clarified now as well.

22             Then since there appear to be no questions -- Mr. Misetic.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have two points of order, I

24     guess.  To correct the transcript at page 51, we had, as you will recall,

25     a discussion about that sign as to where to turn to Zagreb and to Zadar.

Page 4089

 1     I believe the transcript should say that the sign says Zagreb is to the

 2     left and Zadar is to the right.  Just so that the record is clear.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters kindly ask that all microphones

 5     which are not in use be switched off.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  At least as matters stand now, whatever's on the

 7     transcript is that the traffic sign indicates at a junction that to the

 8     right it is Zadar, and to the left it's Zagreb, and there's no straight

 9     on indication.

10             MR. MISETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

11             My second point is just to note for the record that we now have

12     the notes of the witness.  We are going through them.  We will endeavour

13     to -- if there is anything that comes up to resolve it by agreement with

14     the Prosecution so as to avoid the need of the witness having to come

15     back to address the issue.  However, I wanted to note that obviously

16     there is a possibility that something could come up, and I wanted to

17     preserve our position on that in terms of going to the Chamber and asking

18     if needed to come back to that point, but I'm fully aware that our

19     efforts are to work with the Prosecution to see if we can come to

20     agreement to make that unnecessary.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is on the record, and may I take it that

22     this is valid for all parties.  Well, perhaps not for the Prosecution

23     because you, Ms. Mahindaratne, you said that there was no need -- you

24     never asked for it, whereas Mr. Misetic apparently is interested in this.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 4090

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, Mr. Misetic, if there is any

 2     reason to revisit these notes, then of course, the Prosecution who

 3     considered them not necessary at this moment then may change its mind.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Of course, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, our position is very much the same.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then -- and I take it that is true for the

 8     Cermak Defence as well.

 9             Then I have to -- I would suggest that if the parties are

10     interested to see the original, that the witness is now still here, they

11     perhaps just have a glance in it unless they say, Well, that is not very

12     important for us because then I would leave the originals in the hands of

13     the witness.

14             Mr. Vanderostyne, keep them well in case they ever might be

15     needed.

16             Then I also noticed that since the copying is one-sided, that it

17     might not be easy to identify exactly what is on the right pages and

18     what's is on the left page.  For copying, I instructed that empty pages,

19     and there quite a number of empty pages in the booklet, that they are not

20     copied because the pages are not numbered.  I, however, asked that the

21     sequence of the pages would be unaffected during copying, so I've got one

22     with a staple on it, the other one not.  Therefore, everyone should take

23     care that we -- we leave them in the sequence as they are now.

24             Mr. Vanderostyne, this concludes your testimony in this Court.

25     I'd like to thank you very much for having answered all the questions,

Page 4091

 1     and I wish you a safe trip home again.

 2             Mr. Usher, could you escort Mr. Vanderostyne out of the

 3     courtroom.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, or Ms. Mahindaratne, I do understand

 6     that you have not your next witness stand by.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's correct.  General Forand will start

 8     tomorrow morning.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Will start tomorrow morning.  It's always -- we lose

10     another hour in court, but matters are as they are.

11             Then if there is no other procedural issue to be raised at this

12     moment, and I do not see anyone jumping up.  We'll resume at -- yes, Mr.

13     Misetic.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  Let me take the

15     opportunity if we have some extra time.

16             There is one issue that came up today that I didn't raise an

17     objection, but just something for the consideration of the Trial Chamber

18     and the Prosecution.  There were badges shown to the witness, and I think

19     it came up once before with a previous witness regarding a Puma badge.

20     The Court will recall we had a prior discussion about photo IDs with

21     witnesses, and just as a point in the future, I'm not sure how the

22     Chamber wishes to proceed as a matter of procedure, if badges are going

23     to be shown to Prosecution witnesses, it might be appropriate to give

24     them a lineup of different badges and see if they can select them rather

25     than showing them one and saying, is this the Puma badge or is this a

Page 4092

 1     Special Police badge or whatever the case may be.

 2             I think the principles are consistent with what we discussed

 3     earlier with regard to photo lineups.  It's a new issue that's raised.  I

 4     don't know how the Chamber wishes -- whether in writing, et cetera, but

 5     it came up today.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a kind of an emblem lineup and also

 7     identification but then for emblems rather than --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  For persons.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  We'll take note of it, Mr. President.  I just

11     want to point out, of course, with regard to the badge that the witness

12     identified.  It was clear in fact on the photographs of -- photographs

13     taken on 8 August in Gracac that what he identified in court was exactly

14     that, the MUP -- you know, the letters MUP, policija.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That of course -- there is a slight difference

16     if -- if a photograph has been taken.  If a witness describes an emblem

17     where there is no picture available from what he saw at that time, then

18     of course it makes more sense to make also Oslo emblem confrontation then

19     if there is a photograph, if he has described it because it is not just a

20     picture of the emblem, but it is a picture of an emblem which was

21     photographed on the same location on the same day.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Just two points.  My colleague advises me that

23     actually the emblem was not identical to the one that was in the picture

24     because there was a lightning -- he didn't recognise the lightning bolt,

25     and the second is, I wonder --

Page 4093

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, he didn't recognise it.  I fully agree

 2     with you.  But I think that this picture was shown to the witness on the

 3     basis of what was found on the photograph.  But I do agree with you that

 4     it needed some further interpretation whether it was upside down or the

 5     other way around.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Be that as it may, though, in the future if we are

 7     going to go through that process, I would just note for the record that

 8     we would from now on ask that the witnesses not be shown one badge and

 9     then asked, Is this is the Puma badge or whatever the case might be.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If we compare the technique used during Oslo

11     confrontations, you usually find other persons, similar size, similar et

12     cetera.  I do not whether emblems, similar size, similar colours,

13     et cetera, should be created for those persons or whether they do exist.

14             MR. MISETIC:  There are plenty of badges as I'm sure the

15     Prosecution has most if not all of them.  The issue is in most of these

16     statements or many of these statements, I should say, Your Honour, the

17     witnesses often say I don't know, I don't recall it was a 7 or whether it

18     was a 4, et cetera, and to have the Prosecution even inadvertently say,

19     Is this the badge of the Puma Brigade, it suggests to the witness that it

20     is and therefore --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I do agree with you, and I think I made that

22     clear already that to the extent possible, especially where there are no

23     photographs taken at that same day, that the witness be shown a series of

24     emblems so that he can -- that does not just one for him to recognise, to

25     identify, but that he must make a choice or say that none of them

Page 4094

 1     resembles what he saw.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it reminds me when asking you about procedural

 4     matters that I have still one -- not a decision but the reasons for a

 5     decision.  That is the chamber's reasons for granting trial-related

 6     protective measures for Witness 54.

 7             On the 13th of May, 2008, the Prosecution requested the Chamber

 8     to order the trial-related protective measures of pseudonym and face

 9     distortion for Witness 54.  This request can be found in the transcript,

10     beginning at page 2767.  On the same day, the Cermak Defence and the

11     Markac Defence indicated that they did not object to the motion.  On the

12     14th of May, 2008, the Gotovina Defence stated that it did not oppose the

13     motion.  And, on the same day, the Chamber granted the motion with

14     reasons to follow as indicated on transcript page 2773.

15             On the 1st of May, 2008, the Chamber held in its reasons for its

16     first protective measures decision in this case that the party seeking

17     protective measures for a witness must demonstrate an objectively

18     grounded risk to the security or welfare of the witness or the witness's

19     family, should it become known that the witness has given evidence before

20     the Tribunal.  The mere expression of fear by a witness is insufficient

21     to justify protective measures.  This standard can be satisfied by

22     showing, for example, that a threat was made against the witness or the

23     witness's family.

24             Witness 54, a Croatian Serb, and his family live in Croatia where

25     he also owns property.  The Chamber found that the expected testimony of

Page 4095

 1     Witness 54 could antagonise certain persons in the place where he and his

 2     family live.  The witness stated that he is repeatedly discriminated

 3     against because of his ethnicity and that his property in Croatia was

 4     repeatedly damaged.  The Chamber additionally considered the fact that

 5     the Defence did not object to the request and that the public's ability

 6     to follow the proceedings would not be hindered by the assignment of a

 7     pseudonym to the witness and face distortion on the television broadcast.

 8             For the aforementioned reasons, the Chamber found that the

 9     Prosecution has demonstrated an objectively grounded risk to the security

10     and welfare of Witness 54, should it become known that he has given

11     evidence before the Tribunal that is sufficient to warrant the granting

12     of the requested protective measures.

13             This concludes the Chamber's reasons for its decision to grant

14     protective measures for Witness 54.

15             We adjourn, and we'll resume tomorrow, the 3rd of June, 9.00,

16     Courtroom I.

17                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.30 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of June,

19                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.