1 Thursday, 5 June 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.
6 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Mr. Kay, are you ready to continue your cross-examination.
12 MR. KAY: I am, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But I must first remind you, Mr. Forand, that you
14 are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning
15 of your testimony.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, please proceed.
18 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: ALAIN ROBERT FORAND [Resumed]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay: [Continued]
21 Q. General Forand, we're going to look at some documents now
22 concerning freedom of movement and how that progressed between you and
23 Mr. Cermak, as well as other factors that had a play in this matter.
24 The first document that I would like you to look at is P347. And
25 the page that we need to turn to on this is, first of all, the first
1 page, where you say in your sitrep that: "The HV are restricting our
3 MR. KAY: That's the wrong -- that's not the same document that I
4 have for that. My mistake. Hang on.
5 Second page. It's the letter. A bit of confusion because this
6 is -- exists as a stand-alone document, as well as being part of a
7 sitrep, so it's difficult to trace it.
8 Q. This is the letter that you wrote to General Gotovina which we
9 looked at yesterday and the day before, concerning your request for a
10 meeting with the military governor; but then in paragraph 2: "The
11 restriction on freedom of movement in Sector South must be lifted
12 immediately," which was something that you wanted so that you could get
13 out of your camp; isn't that right?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Thank you. You refer in another document, 65 ter 1607, on the
16 5th of August, in paragraph 1, fourth line: "The HV are restricting our
17 movement, although we have had authority from one set of Croatian army
18 liaison officers to proceed with patrolling and humanitarian assistance."
19 Then they got blocked having gone less than a kilometre.
20 First of all, can you recollect which Croatian army liaison
21 officers had given permission to proceed, where they were based or what
22 that refers to?
23 A. No, sir, I don't remember.
24 Q. And the blocking of the patrol, can you remember where that was?
25 A. Well, from the content of that first paragraph, it must have been
1 from my headquarters, sir.
2 Q. Right. So that would have been out of the UNCRO compound in
4 A. Yeah, from my headquarters in Knin.
5 Q. Right. So someone had let them through at the gate, but they
6 hadn't got any further than a kilometre?
7 A. Well, I suppose there must have been discussion with that CALO,
8 whoever he may have been, either on the phone or verbally, that we were,
9 according to him, from what I'm reading, given the permission to get out
10 of the camp.
11 Q. Right. Can we look at page 2 of this document, paragraph B:
12 "I'm pressing wherever I can for freedom of movement, for humanitarian
13 relief, monitoring military activity. I understand that a Croatian army
14 liaison office team is being dispatched here from Zadar, and I've offered
15 that space in my HQ to facilitate."
16 Is that the reference there that you are referring to offering a
17 space to Marine Lukovic, Captain Lukovic, in your headquarters?
18 A. Yes, sir. I don't know if it was specifically for Captain
19 Lukovic, but I know that we had offered a space within my headquarters
20 for a liaison officer.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. KAY: Your Honour, can this be made an exhibit, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D317, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D317 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. KAY: I have a 65 ter number 1654, 1654, for the next
4 document. That's 347, Prosecution Exhibit 347.
5 Q. Still taking up the account on this, on the 5th of August, and
6 you were calling for intervention of senior officials at every level to
7 try and reestablish your freedom of movement which was fundamentally
8 important to you. That's right, isn't it?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And I've just put this in. We've looked at it before just so
11 that the whole chain of it is able to be seen.
12 MR. KAY: Next document I'd like to turn to is 65 ter 1625.
13 Q. This is another sitrep for the 6th of August, 1995. It may have
14 been a Prosecution exhibit. I've just flag that up.
15 Here, you can see in paragraph 1: "Immediate concerns with
16 respect to the current situation in Knin and Sector South. I will be
17 discussing those points at my level with the Croatian liaison office in
18 Knin; however, I would appreciate if those points were discussed with
19 Croat authorities in Zagreb
20 At your level with the --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay.
22 MR. KAY: Sorry.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You are reading from an English text, and we have at
24 this moment on our screen a B/C/S text and not a corresponding page for
25 the English text. And what we just saw apparently as the second page
1 seems not to correspond --
2 MR. KAY: I apologise.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- with what you're reading, because I saw a very
4 short, and I see it now again. I see a paragraph 2 and a paragraph 3,
5 where in the original we have a short paragraph 1 and then a longer
6 paragraph 2. So these are not corresponding documents.
7 MR. KAY: My apologies for that. That is my responsibility. The
8 ERN number that I'm looking at is 0052-7776, if that may help the
9 situation. I've read it out to you accurately, you can take that from
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take that from you; but at the same time, the
12 Chamber would like to know what document we are dealing with.
13 It seems that, Mr. Registrar ...
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 MR. KAY: I can describe it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, at the inconsistency, or at least the
17 discrepancy, between original and translation is apparently caused by the
18 way in which you have uploaded these documents, because I do understand
19 that these documents are uploaded by the OTP. So if you would please
20 have a look at that.
21 Meanwhile, Mr. Kay, if you would be very precise in describing
22 what the document exactly is; and if you would have a hard copy, that
23 might assist the witness because --
24 MR. KAY: I'll give the witness my copy, as I can deal with the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be put on the ELMO.
2 MR. KAY: I apologise for the markings in advance.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that the --
4 MR. KAY: [Overlapping speakers] ... You can see where we've got
5 our information from.
6 Thank you, Mr. Usher, that's the spot on point.
7 Q. I was going to ask you, having read it out, that your level with
8 the Croat liaison office in Knin, what you meant by that? What was your
9 level with the Croat liaison office in Knin?
10 A. It must be a reference to the other sitrep, where I was saying
11 that the Croat liaison was coming from Zadar.
12 Q. Right. And the passage below, "HV soldiers are claiming that
13 this imposed restriction of movement is for our own security," where did
14 that information come from?
15 A. Well, that must have been with discussion, you know, with
16 soldiers that were at the gate of my headquarters.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. KAY: If we could just turn to page 2.
19 Q. If you go to the pink passage which has helpfully been marked in
20 advance, paragraph 7. "I am seeking your support to resolve the
21 foregoing points with the Croatian authorities as a matter of priority,"
22 indicating, would you agree, that you wanted RHQ in Zagreb to assist you
23 in resolving these issues?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. KAY: Your Honour, if that document, subject to it being
2 correctly identified as to what it is, could be exhibited.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although, I have seen this document before; I
4 know that for sure.
5 So, therefore, Mr. Registrar, if you would please make a note
6 that it may be that this document needs a number; and that, meanwhile,
7 everyone is invited to find it on the already existing lists or one of
8 the exhibits.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. KAY: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
11 Q. We're now going to look at a document, 2D03-0123. This is a
12 document which is quite long in text, but the relevant part has been
14 MR. KAY: Page 2 after you have shown the first page,
15 Mr. Monkhouse.
16 Q. This is a document coming from Brigadier Plestina whom you met, I
17 understand; is that right?
18 A. I met him once. He came to my camp sometime in August.
19 Q. Yes. We will get there soon on this. This is from him on the
20 6th of August. And as page 2 shows us, it's minutes of a meeting between
21 chief of the UNCRO staff, Colonel Pettis. Did you know him?
22 A. Yes, sir, I did. He was the Chief of Staff of my UNCRO
23 headquarters; not my, but my superior UNCRO headquarters.
24 Q. Yes. And he had a meeting with Brigadier Plestina. We can see
25 what the document is about. The second paragraph, last sentence refers
1 to the: "The main problem is total prohibition leaving the facility,"
2 meaning your UN compound, so that you can go to the UN warehouse in Knin,
3 "needing supplies."
4 Paragraph 3 refers to a requirement of opening roads to enable
5 communication between UNCRO sector commands and subordinate units on the
6 field; is that right? You needed roads opened so that you could go to
7 your subordinate units elsewhere in Sector South?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. They also require freedom of movement in the area next to those
10 where battles take place in order to report on human rights and similar.
11 Colonel Pettis said that would be useful for Croatia as well. And we
12 note here that request was refused by Brigadier Plestina, saying: "We
13 have been in Knin just one day and the battle has still been carrying on.
14 We expect component UN agencies and not UNCRO military units will report
15 on human rights."
16 Just looking at that passage there, we note Brigadier Plestina
17 refused a request from what would be your headquarters in Zagreb; isn't
18 that right?
19 A. That seems to be the case because I never saw that -- those
20 minutes by myself.
21 Q. Yes. Were they keeping you informed at HQ Zagreb of refusals
22 that were happening higher up the chain of command?
23 A. What I remember is that we -- the communication were not very
24 good in the sense, no. I think we were not kept aware of all the
25 discussion that was taking place.
1 Q. Was that something that was a handicap to you?
2 A. Well, let's say that was not what I was expecting to see as far
3 as information were ongoing.
4 Q. Thank you. Was there an issue about UNCRO, which was the peace
5 force, having a role in monitoring the human rights issues that were of
6 concern to the UN at this time?
7 A. I don't know if it was an issue, but as far as humanitarian
8 right, if we see something a soldier that is ongoing that is against
9 humanitarian rights, I think it's our duty to report it. But I think you
10 will see that in one of the sitrep, that I explained very clearly to my
11 battalion commanders that our first priority was the dismantling.
12 I think it's somewhere around the 10th or 11th of August,
13 somewhere around there, where it's clearly stated in the sitrep. And
14 when I had my battalion commander, I think it was on the 10th of August
15 at my headquarters, I reiterate that; but I also mentioned that anything
16 that they saw which was against humanitarian rights, I expect that they
17 would document it and report it to me.
18 Q. Were you aware of the position of the Croatian government that
19 that was not why foreign troops in the form of UNCRO were on their
20 territorial area, that that was not your mandate?
21 A. I don't remember that, sir.
22 Q. Just moving on further in that paragraph, it seems that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, meanwhile, I can inform you that the
24 document you just had on the screen is P348, 65 ter 1994. So there must
25 be a double with 1625.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. KAY: My apologies, Your Honour, and thank you to the Court.
3 Q. And we can see further in that paragraph the issue of
4 communication problems. That's all I need refer you to there.
5 MR. KAY: Can that document be made an exhibit, please, Your
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D318, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D318 is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. KAY: The next document that we are going to look at is
14 2D03-0169. I believe it hasn't been uploaded yet into the system, Your
15 Honour, so we have copies here for --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher.
17 MR. KAY: -- the ELMO. It's been put for uploading but it hasn't
18 realised yet. Thank you. This is a partial translation.
19 And if page 4 of the Croatian document can be put on to the --
20 actually, page 1 first, just so that people can see it. It's a document,
21 again, from Brigadier Plestina, dated the 7th of August, 1995
22 Q. You can see the date period that it refers to, events between the
23 6th of August, 7th of August, and it's a report.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, we now have the original in front of us,
25 and you explain to us without us being able to follow what it is.
1 Do we have copies? Do we have copies of it because you are
2 talking about a partial translation?
3 MR. KAY: Yeah.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber would like to have whatever copies
5 there are, or to see it on the screen, so that we can follow you.
6 MR. KAY: Your Honour, perhaps just --
7 JUDGE ORIE: There we are.
8 MR. KAY: -- because I know that we can only put the English on
9 at this stage, so that other parties could see it. If we put on the
10 English translation now which is on the screen. From this report, we've
11 just translated the Sector South part.
12 Q. You can see the document as described by me which is the extract
13 from page 3 of the Croatian document. It refers there to: "The office
14 of our UNCRO liaison officer has been established ..."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you give to Mr. Usher more copies than one?
16 Then perhaps Mr. Usher could provide us with a hard copy as well. As
17 soon as I can't manipulate my own material anymore, I get a bit nervous.
18 MR. KAY: Yes.
19 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour. Is there one available for
20 the Prosecution as well?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I see that I only received the
22 translation. And if for whatever reason there is not yet a copy
23 uploaded, then at least we should have four copies: One copy for the
24 party dealing with the matter, of course, preferably also for other
25 Defence counsel; one for the ELMO; one for the Bench; and one for the
1 other party.
2 If there is an original, I would like to see it; if not, then I
3 would get it after it has been on the ELMO.
4 MR. KAY: It has been sent in electronic form to the Prosecution,
5 I'm afraid under a different number, because this is the number for the
7 Your Honour, is it all right for me to proceed?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. KAY: Thank you.
10 Q. This, again, is just taking the story further on, and for
11 reference purposes, General Forand: "The office of our UNCRO liaison
12 officer has been established. Three officers from Zadar in the office
13 established liaison with UNCRO command."
14 Is that right that the three officers had established liaison
15 with you by the 7th of August?
16 A. I don't remember, sir.
17 Q. Thank you. "In the first meeting, General Forand -- with General
18 Forand, they mainly talked about unfounded complaints that UNCRO filed
19 regarding the restriction of movement. Our liaison officer explained to
20 General Forand that UNCRO has complete freedom of movement regarding the
21 supply of units on the field, that there is no need for their patrols,
22 observations from the points, and reports on breaching Zagreb
23 Is that right that the liaison officers of the Croatian army
24 expressed those matters to you in that way as reported in this document?
25 A. Well, like I said before, sir, I don't remember, you know, that
1 particular discussion, and I don't remember ever seeing it in one of our
2 situation report where we explained that they had been at that particular
3 meeting. It could have been, but I don't remember.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit? And
6 my apologies to the Court for not having copies.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I just -- I'm reasonably confident I
9 will not have an objection, but just out of some procedural matter -- in
10 fact, we did not receive this document. I needed to clarify the record
11 on that. We received an e-mail notification this morning that the
12 Defence might be using a document under that particular number, but not
13 the document itself. So I simply want to look it over, and I have not
14 yet had the chance to do so.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we already assign it a number to it. Would it
16 be agreeable, because otherwise we get a long MFI list, that the document
17 will be admitted into evidence but that you have an opportunity to
18 revisit the matter within today or tomorrow?
19 MR. TIEGER: That's absolutely fine, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D319.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D319 is admitted into evidence under the proviso
23 that, first of all, that it will be uploaded into e-court, and we are
24 talking about a daily report of the 6th of August, 1995 to the 7th of
25 August, 1995. And the second proviso is that the Prosecution has an
1 opportunity to restate its position until Friday.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour. Next in the chain, but we're
4 not going to pull up the exhibit, but it's Exhibit 359.
5 Q. You recollect you had a meeting with General Gotovina at the Knin
6 Castle where you recorded that he talked to you about freedom of
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And he didn't ask you for your opinion on the matter, but told
10 you what the situation was going to be from his position; is that right?
11 A. That is what was reflected in the situation report, yes, sir.
12 Q. And Exhibit 359 also records that maps were going to be provided
13 to you showing the areas that were safe to travel. That's what he said
14 to you.
15 A. I don't remember that part, no, sir.
16 MR. KAY: Let's look at Exhibit P359, and if we could go to
17 page 3 of that document.
18 Q. This is the situation report produced through you by the
19 Prosecution of the 8th of August, 2030 hours.
20 MR. KAY: Paragraph 2 of paragraph 3, if that can be produced.
21 Q. Can you see there the text?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. You weren't asked for your opinion, you were told that it was
24 concern for your safety, and that maps would be provided showing the
25 areas that were safe to travel.
1 A. Yeah, I see that.
2 Q. And that the travel should be confined to main public roads due
3 to mine hazard. And you asked permission to bring your COs to Knin, and
4 you were told to use the coastal highway. And later on that day, you
5 had, at 1.00, a meeting with General Cermak, and also the freedom of
6 movement was again discussed by you in detail.
7 And you were told by him, paragraph 3(1), it's recorded he would
8 give orders that you would be allowed to travel freely within Knin and
9 Drnis. That's how it was expressed to you, wasn't it?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. KAY: We can move now from that exhibit, and go to the next
13 document which is -- I have as Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 2735. I know
14 it's been an exhibit, but again it's the form. Which document it has is
15 difficult to trace.
16 We're looking at now the letter that you received later that day
17 as Mr. Cermak mentioned. And that letter had, as an attachment, a map;
18 is that right?
19 A. It must have been there. I don't remember. But it's listed that
20 it was there, so it must have been there.
21 Q. And General Gotovina had said you were going to receive a map,
22 hadn't he?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Yes.
25 MR. KAY: I'm just checking that this has been exhibited before.
1 MR. TIEGER: It has. It's part of the -- it was used during the
2 examination in chief, and we're just running the number now to identify
3 the P number.
4 MR. KAY: Thank you.
5 MR. TIEGER: P405, Your Honour.
6 MR. KAY: Thank you very much, Mr. Tieger.
7 The next document I want to look at on this matter is 2D03-0177.
8 Your Honour, again, this is on the ELMO. I believe it's being
9 put into e-court but has yet to be uploaded into the system. It's
10 another document from Brigadier Plestina, dated the 8th of August, 1995
11 referring to the 7th of August to 8th of August, 1995. That's the front
13 Again, the relevant extract has been translated relating to
14 Sector South. If that could be put on the ELMO which is page -- that's
15 Sector North. Next page. That's Sector South. If the English
16 translation could be put on the ELMO now. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, before you continue, I see these daily
18 reports. I do not see an addressee of that, to whom. I mean, it's clear
19 that the previous one might be the same for this one. It was signed by
20 Brigadier Budimir Plestina, but to whom it is addressed remains rather
22 MR. KAY: I can see "military secret" on it. It's now released
23 on the e-court system, Your Honour. Would you Your Honour like to
24 proceed to get it off that rather than using the ELMO.
25 JUDGE ORIE: My real problem was --
1 MR. KAY: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- to whom these reports are addressed.
3 MR. KAY: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's fine to have them on my screen but that was my
6 MR. KAY: Yes. And I'm only as good as my document, I'm afraid,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So it's a report for whomever. It doesn't say
10 MR. KAY: It's the Ministry of Defence will be where it's going
12 JUDGE ORIE: Where can we see that from the report? You could
13 also say that it's coming from the Ministry Of the Defence. It could be
14 sent to the government, to the President, to the local commanders,
15 to whatever. I don't say any clue as to whom this is addressed.
16 MR. KAY: I can't help you, Your Honour. It's a document that
17 comes into my hands.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you're using it as having some relevance; and,
19 of course, it's always good to know not only who drafted it but also
20 where it was sent to.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. KAY: Yes. These have been very recently received by me, and
23 I've looked at in the last days.
24 Q. This report from Brigadier Plestina, in the second paragraph:
25 "The cooperation of our liaison officers with the UNCRO units on the
1 field has continued." Is that right, was the UNCRO sector cooperation
2 taking place with the Croatian army liaison officers?
3 A. Well, I don't remember with the unit at my headquarters.
4 Obviously, we had established liaison with General Cermak and his people;
5 but I cannot confirm, from the unit point of view, if that was the case.
6 Q. Right. It refers here, though, to liaison officers rather than
7 General Cermak. All these documents, General Forand, in fact, exclude
8 General Cermak.
9 A. Well, once General Cermak was in a position, that's with whom we
10 were dealing in my headquarters in Knin.
11 Q. We'll go further into this document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try now to understand, Mr. Kay, what all these
13 documents are about. In the previous one that was provisionally admitted
14 into evidence, the activities of liaison officers are described in the
15 following way. It says: "In the Zadar area, the majority of the
16 activities of our liaison officers is oriented on agreeing with CanBat
17 withdrawal of the CanBat soldiers from the numerous observation points
18 and the security of unobstructed water, toiletries, and foot supply in
19 their foot command in Rastevic."
20 So that part of the description of the liaison officers that is
21 oriented on agreeing with CanBat withdrawal of CanBat soldiers from the
22 numerous observation points, is that what you recognise as far as what
23 happened as far as the units is concerned and as far as the Croatian
24 liaison officers is concerned? Do you agree on that role from
25 observation posts?
1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember that particular position, sir. I
2 know that just prior to the 4th of August, the Canadians had sent a
3 liaison officer to Zadar, and that the liaison officer was negotiating
4 with the Croats because some equipment, you know, had been taken from
5 them from certain observation posts. And they were negotiating also the
6 return of certain Canadians that had been taken to Zadar.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Who had been taken or who had withdrawn? I mean,
8 what was the situation?
9 THE WITNESS: Well, taken to Zadar. They were removed from their
10 observation post.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: And they were escorted back to Zadar.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So, if you say -- if the language of the liaison
14 officers here used is to agree with CanBat withdrawal of the CanBat
15 soldiers from the numerous observation posts, you say, as far as you were
16 aware, that they were taken from the observation posts to Zadar?
17 THE WITNESS: That was during the 4th, Your Honour?
18 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm here talking about the -- this report is
19 about the 6th and the 7th of August.
20 THE WITNESS: No. I don't remember that because I don't ever
21 remember the Canadian Battalion reporting to me, you know, that this was
22 taking place. The only time it took place was on the 4th, you know. As
23 the Croat army was advancing, certain of the observation posts that the
24 Canadian had, the same thing for the Kenyans, that they were told, you
25 know, to remove themselves from the observation post. Some of them went
1 back to their unit area; others were brought to Zadar.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
4 MR. KAY:
5 Q. If we look at the middle of that sect paragraph, the issue of
6 CanBat refusing radio silence, that was a matter that occurred on the
7 4th of August; isn't it?
8 A. It was not only the Canadian Battalion, it was all the units that
9 were reporting; and that memo that we received from Captain Lukovic was
10 addressed to all of my units within Sector South.
11 Q. But could you just answer the question: Was it the 4th of
13 A. Yes, sir, it was the 4th of August.
14 Q. That was the question. I'd like to now turn to another similar
15 document to this.
16 MR. KAY: Can that document be made an exhibit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER: The same situation as the previous document, Your
20 JUDGE ORIE: Which means this one is now uploaded. So,
21 therefore, I'll immediately check whether we have a translation uploaded
22 as well.
23 Yes. We have the --
24 MR. KAY: All documents have been uploaded, I am informed now,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have the original five-page document in
2 full and a translation on Sector South.
3 Mr. Tieger, the same would then apply that you will have an
4 opportunity until tomorrow, end of the session, to revisit your position
5 as far as admission is concerned.
6 Mr. Registrar, this would be number?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D320, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D320 is admitted with the proviso I've just
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KAY: 2D03-0184.
12 Q. This is a document, General Forand, again from Brigadier
13 Plestina, dated the 10th of August, 1995.
14 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we'll endeavour to answer Your Honour's
15 question on the direction of these documents during the course of the
16 day, if we can.
17 Q. As we can see in this passage on Sector South, reference in the
18 third paragraph to: "UNCRO trying is continue the activities it did till
19 the storm operation started and requires freedom of movement in the whole
20 liberated area. When asked by our liaison officers what the purpose and
21 objective of these patrols is, they answered that they are just soldiers
22 and are still ordered to control the liberated territory."
23 Would you accept that there was a tension between UNCRO and the
24 government of Croatia
25 sovereign territory of that state, Croatia
1 A. I don't remember if there was tension because what is highlighted
2 here goes contrary to what I had put on the sitrep and what I had said to
3 my battalion commanders, that our first responsibility was the
4 dismantling of the observation posts which required us to go throughout
5 the sector, because also I wanted to recuperate some of the equipment,
6 you know, that the UN had lost or was not sure where it was. So I had to
7 go through all the sector.
8 In addition to that, what I was telling them is that: If you see
9 any infringement to human rights, it's our duty to report it.
10 Q. The paragraph below the one we've just referred to: "Our liaison
11 officers explained ..."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, this document apparently speaks about "our
13 liaison officers" frequently. I would be very much interested to know
14 what exactly is meant by that. I don't know whether this witness can
15 help us out who the liaison officers, I take it Croatian liaison
16 officers. But whether these were the liaison officers we know about
17 already or whether there were any other liaison officers is something I'd
18 very much like to know.
19 MR. KAY: The last document in this sequence, I think, will help,
20 Your Honour, in relation to that, and I do have that in mind.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's proceed.
22 MR. KAY:
23 Q. At the next paragraph: "Our liaison officers explained them that
24 UNCRO has full freedom of movement for supplying camps ... and no reason
25 to patrol."
1 Again, there's a reference to the liaison officers discussing
2 freedom of movement with you. Who would that have been?
3 A. Like I said before, the only -- after the 7th, the only
4 discussion I had at my level and the officer from my headquarters were
5 with General Cermak or General Cermak's staff. Now, if the units had
6 some discussion with the liaison officer, I don't remember.
7 Q. Should we just go to the next page of the document and look
8 carefully at where Brigadier Plestina is from, in terms of his position.
9 The letter is from the Ministry of Defence, Republic of Croatia UN
10 office, and he was the chief of the office.
11 The liaison office was part of -- the Croatian army liaison
12 office was part of the UN and EU office within their military structure;
13 is that right?
14 A. If you say so. I mean, like I said, I met General Plestina once.
15 I don't even remember what he looked like, but I saw a sitrep that says
16 that I met him at my Sector Headquarters South. That's all I can say.
17 Q. So you didn't know that -- where he was within the Croatian army
18 command structure?
19 A. No, sir.
20 MR. KAY: May that document be made an exhibit, please, Your
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, same proviso?
23 MR. TIEGER: Same situation, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then same decision as well, but, of course,
25 Mr. Registrar, first a number, please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D321, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D321 is admitted into evidence with the proviso that
3 the Prosecution can revisit its position until Friday, end of the
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. KAY:
7 Q. Next document is Exhibit P390 which is the letter to you, General
8 Forand, from General Cermak, concerning your letter of the 10th of
9 August. We know the terms of this letter, although it always bears
10 looking at again as new issues are looked at.
11 We can see in paragraph 3: UNCRO units being allowed full
12 freedom of movement for the purpose of providing food, drink, and fuel to
13 their bases." And that was the issue concerning what you were able to do
14 within the state of Croatia
15 A. Well, I think it was more than that, if you go back to the deal
16 that was signed between Mr. Akashi and the Croatian government. I think
17 we were allowed a little bit more latitude than that.
18 Q. Just looking at this document and pulling up from the last
19 question I asked you about the last exhibit, you can see units in area of
20 responsibility, Ministry of Defence, and the office for UN and EU.
21 You still experienced problems with freedom of movement despite
22 that letter as we have seen in the situation reports; is that right?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And that order of General Cermak, as signed by him, was the
25 document that was issued; is that right?
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Thank you. If we go now to P364.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to understand all the questions. I see
4 that there was a problem where there was a claim for full freedom of
5 movement without restrictions, as far as the purpose is concerned, where
6 only limited freedom of movement was granted; that is, to resupply or to
7 supply good, drinks, fuel.
8 Now, I'm trying to understand your last question: "And that
9 order of General Cermak, as signed by him, was the document that was
11 MR. KAY:
12 Q. Issued as a pass, General Forand, if that clarifies the matter.
13 I believe you said it in evidence in chief.
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 MR. KAY: Does that help?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm just trying to see. "Issued," you mean
17 this letter was issued as a pass for freedom of movement?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. That's what we took it for, and I issued
19 it to all my units.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And the pass was for very limited purposes, isn't
21 it, only if someone was on the way with food, drinks, or fuel. This
22 would help or --
23 THE WITNESS: But there was also a reference, sir, to Article 4
24 and 5 of the --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. So this document as a pass under
1 paragraph 1, we see that it's written that: "Full freedom of movement
2 for UN members mentioned in the agreement." This is a reference to the
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And then: "Full freedom of movement is allowed to
6 UNCRO troops in order to supply themselves with food, drinks, and fuel."
7 Were UNCRO troops not included in the agreement?
8 THE WITNESS: It was, sir. But I think if you read the
9 agreement, it makes a difference between the United Nations humanitarian
10 rights and the UNCRO people. But there's also under paragraph 5, I
11 remember well, that where we wanted to go was to be in consultation with
12 the HV troops. But my interpretation is that that consultation is not a
13 binding agreement, and that we were still allowed to go wherever we want.
14 But my order to my troops was to dismantle the observation post and to
15 recuperate the equipment that was to the UN in order to concentrate it
16 into area.
17 But at the same time, while they were moving from point A to
18 point B to do that particular function, they were asked to report if they
19 saw anything that went against humanitarian rights. In my --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sir.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So you considered the freedom of movement to UNCRO
23 troops to be broader under the agreement as written down in this letter;
24 is that it?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think I now better understand what the letter says
2 and what the testimony of the witness is.
3 MR. KAY: Exhibit D28 is the agreement.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have it.
5 MR. KAY: I apologise, Your Honour. We're under pressure of
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know that.
8 MR. KAY: I can't go through in a way I would like to with this
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. And most of the times, I think the Chamber
11 understands --
12 MR. KAY: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- even in shortened form what the evidence is.
14 And, now and again, it happens that we need to go a bit further.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. KAY: If we can go to Exhibit P364 which is the last
18 Q. And if you turn to page 2 of P364 which is your sitrep of the
19 12th of August, 1995. If we look at the foot of the page in paragraph 3,
20 we see the report of the meeting with Brigadier Plestina.
21 General, we've looked at the series of documents from Brigadier
22 Plestina how they mesh into this issue of freedom of movement. And you
23 had a meeting with him on the 12th of August, and he was described by you
24 as the head of the office of the UN and ECMM Croatian army; is that
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And when he came to see you, did you appreciate that he was the
3 head of the Croatian army liaison officers?
4 A. I don't remember, but I must have been told at which function he
5 occupied, yes, sir.
6 Q. Yes. And he was visiting Knin from Zagreb. He was with Captain
7 Naval Lukovic, who we've referred to, who was a Croatian army liaison
8 officer. That's right, isn't it?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. CALO, Operation Group South. So he was the Croatian army liaison
11 officer of Operation Group South; Jeffrey Beaumont from headquarters
12 UNCRO, and the Croatian army CSS.
13 A. That is the civilian affairs coordinator. That was Mr. Al-Alfi.
14 Q. Thank you. I had not seen it written that way before.
15 The tone of the meeting was cordial. You outlined planning for
17 MR. KAY: Can we go to the next page.
18 Q. And expressed concern for looting and theft of equipment which
19 had taken place. Mr. Al-Alfi expressed the need for complete freedom of
20 movement of human rights teams; also requested lists of Serbs killed and
21 wounded to be provided; other issues.
22 And then the last sentence: "Brigadier Plestina pledged full
23 freedom of movement but indicated the other issues were outside his
25 Is it correct that your meeting with Brigadier Plestina, who had
1 come from Zagreb
2 A. Yes, sir, according to that sitrep, yes.
3 Q. And his purpose for being there was because he was controlling
4 the issue of freedom of movement between the UNCRO, UN, and the Croatian
6 A. I don't know, sir.
7 Q. Well, isn't that why he was there with Mr. Beaumont from the
8 headquarters of UNCRO?
9 A. I don't remember if he was in charge of controlling the issue,
10 except that we brought it up to him. That's all I can say based on that
11 sitrep because I don't remember that individual.
12 Q. And as we've seen from the reports by Brigadier Plestina, he was
13 reporting on how the issue of freedom of movement was being reported by
14 his liaison officers to UNCRO in Sector South?
15 A. Yes, sir, based on what you've shown me, because I have never
16 seen those reports before.
17 Q. And General Cermak, in fact, like you, was a conduit in this
19 A. That seems to be the case, yes, sir.
20 Q. Thank you. That deals with that matter.
21 In your statements, you referred to nothing ever being done about
22 stopping crimes. Were you aware of a number of orders issued by the
23 Ministry of the Interior of the Croatian government to the police
24 officers under their command to stop looting, burning, killing,
25 committing crimes?
1 Were you aware that, during August, orders were issued by the
2 Croatian Ministry of Interior that controlled the police, to police
3 officers, that those crimes you were complaining about should not be
5 A. As far as I remember, sir, no, I don't --
6 Q. Should we look at --
7 A. -- I'm not aware.
8 Q. -- an exhibit, D46, dated the 10th of August. This is a report
9 from the Assistant Minister of Interior, which controls the police under
10 the Croatian administration, to the head of the military police
11 administration, referring to reports from the field, noting individual
12 Croatian army members on liberated territory stealing, burning houses,
13 killing cattle; and complaining about the lack of cooperation at
14 checkpoints and roadblocks between the police and the military police,
15 and asking for measures to be taken.
16 Were you aware of such matters happening within the Croatian
17 administration of government?
18 A. You mean that particular --
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Were you aware at all of the concern from the Ministry of
22 Interior about the crimes that were happening as complained of by you?
23 A. No, sir.
24 MR. KAY: If we can just look at D48, Exhibit D48.
25 Q. Again, it's a report from the MUP to the chief of military
1 police, regarding crimes being committed on the 17th of August, and
2 saying that the perpetrators wearing Croatian army uniforms. That is
3 another example of such an order.
4 Were you being briefed in any way that these steps were being
5 taken within the Croatian government that orders were being issued?
6 A. I don't remember, sir.
7 Q. Right.
8 MR. KAY: Just look at one more document on this matter as an
9 example, 18th of August, Exhibit D49.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, also for me to understand this letter,
11 addressed to Mr. Laussic, I see that it's admitted into evidence. Now,
12 who is sending it and who is receiving it? Is it addressed to the
13 military police?
14 MR. KAY: It's sent to the military police.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Administration to the chief. Now, who sent it? The
16 original and also the translation say that it's about Operation Povratak,
17 which is translated as?
18 MR. KAY: Return.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Povratak, "Return," yes. But, usually, we get these
20 nice letterheads, et cetera.
21 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I'm trying to again use my time as
22 sparsely as possible. These were documents produced through the witness,
23 Mr. Flynn.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. KAY: The cross-examination of Mr. Flynn, I didn't want to
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine.
3 MR. KAY: Again --
4 JUDGE ORIE: This gives me guidance. You say I've got the
5 answers there. I hope that you will understand that have not every
6 single page of the transcript on my mind, but I will look at it.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. I'm grateful for the Court's
10 Q. We've just looked at two documents from the Ministry of the
11 Interior, man in charge of the police, to the military police.
12 Now we're looking at a document here, Exhibit D49, from that same
13 man, Josko Moric, to all the police administrations. The Court has heard
14 evidence about this before, General Forand. We see Zadar Knin there, and
15 the Court will be familiar with what that means from the Witness Elleby.
16 MR. KAY: Page 2, please, of the English version.
17 Q. Reports from police stations, police administrations, showing
18 torching of houses, taking property, perpetrated by -- mostly perpetrated
19 by individuals wearing Croatian army uniforms. Issue about whether they
20 are or not.
21 Then we see an order.
22 MR. KAY: Can we look at the next page of the English please, and
23 the next page of the Croatian.
24 Q. Police administration chiefs, military -- commanders of military
25 police battalions are told of the problem and decision to put a stop it
1 it. Something, no doubt, you would agree would have been steps that were
2 necessary to be taken; is that right, General Forand?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. At that meeting between the military police and the civil police,
5 meeting must be informed of the decision that cases of torching of houses
6 and taking property will not be operatively investigated. That's a
7 matter that the Court will be looking at.
8 But a stop must be put to this type of, I put in, "behaviour" as
9 of today. Then a series of measures to be taken relevant to stopping
11 Was that something that you were aware of that was actually in
12 hand by the Croatian government?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. KAY: I won't go any further into this issue, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps one general question: Were you aware of any
17 similar internal instructions, orders, meetings, et cetera, in order to
18 deal with the matter of crimes being committed?
19 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
21 MR. KAY: Thank you.
22 Q. In relation to the Croatian army, were you also aware that a
23 series of orders were issued from the Chief of Staff, General Cervenko,
24 as well as from General Gotovina of the Split military district,
25 telling -- ordering that crimes should not be committed?
1 A. No, sir.
2 JUDGE ORIE: A there is a mistake on the transcript here, where
3 it says General Cermak, where you said General Cervenko, I think, Chief
4 of Staff.
5 MR. TIEGER: And just a question of inadvertence, but to just
6 clarify the record. As the question has framed, it says "Were you also
7 aware," which tends to suggest that --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please perhaps put the question again,
9 Mr. Kay.
10 MR. KAY:
11 Q. Should we look at a document, 65 ter 1D49, dated the 6th of
12 August. This is from the Croatian Ministry of Defence Main Staff, so
13 headquarters. It's a document from the Chief of the Main Staff, General
14 Cervenko. Presumably, you knew that was his position, General Forand,
15 did you?
16 A. I cannot say that I remember, sir.
17 Q. Did you know what position General Cervenko was at all in the
18 Croatian army structure?
19 A. I don't remember, sir.
20 Q. Thank you. It's an order that concerns you, in many respects,
21 issued on the 6th of August, 9.00. Paragraphs 1 and 2, we need not
22 consider. Paragraph 3: "Once again, I warn all subordinate commanders
23 and order them to be fair to the UNCRO and other UN employees, whose
24 lives and property should not be put at any risk."
25 And: "The military district commanders," "ZP" means military
1 district, "... and others shall personally answer to me for the
2 implementation of this order and draw up a report ..."
3 Were you aware that, in fact, the Chief of Staff had issued a
4 command relating to UNCRO protection of -- for you and your property?
5 A. No, sir.
6 MR. KAY: May that be made an exhibit, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D322, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D322 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. KAY: Exhibit 65 ter number 1958, please.
13 Q. This is from General Cervenko as well, on the 6th of August, to
14 commanders of the military districts: "Based on information from the
15 areas liberated by the Croatian army, and for the purpose of preventing
16 theft of property and undisciplined conduct, I hereby:"
17 Paragraph 1: "Following entry of army members into the liberated
18 areas, prevent undisciplined conduct."
19 Paragraph 2: "Vigorously prevent the theft of property and war
20 booty. Take vigorous measures against perpetrators of undisciplined
22 Specific, there, in relation to Croatian army members. Were you
23 aware that orders such as that were issued?
24 A. No, sir.
25 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may this become an exhibit?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D323, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D323 is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. KAY: 65 ter 1003.
7 Q. This is the last order I'm going to look at as example, General
8 Forand, dated the 7th of August, to the commanders of military districts.
9 An order giving various details. It is from General Cervenko from the
10 Main Staff.
11 If we go to page 2, look at paragraph 6: "Take all necessary
12 measures, dedicate yourself fully to the implementation of conduct of
13 military discipline, maintenance of order in the zone of responsibility.
14 Prevent burning, looting, and all other illegal acts."
15 Again, the same form of order relating to the order and
16 discipline of troops. Were you aware of that?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Thank you. Was there any discussion between you and your
19 headquarters in Zagreb
20 be had at that level at the Main Staff in relation to your complaints
21 concerning the discipline of troops?
22 A. No, sir.
23 MR. KAY: Again, if we can -- I appreciate I'm running out of
24 time, Your Honour, but I will look at 65 ter 881.
25 Can the previous document be made an exhibit?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER: No objection.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D324, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D324 is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. KAY:
7 Q. The next document is dated the 10th of August, 1995. It is from
8 the Split
9 operative group Sibenik, dated the 10th of August. Order on compliance
10 with military disciplinary measures, and it's pursuant to the order by
11 the commander of the Split Military District because of information from
12 the areas liberated, analysis thereof: " ... in order to prevent theft
13 of property, undisciplined conduct, and save human lives," it is ordered.
14 We don't need to look at paragraph 1, but if we look at
15 paragraph 2: "Take all necessary measures and be fully engaged in the
16 implementation of military disciplinary conduct and the maintenance of
17 order in the zone of responsibility. Prevent burning and all other
18 illegal acts. Take resolute measures against anybody who conducts
19 himself or herself in an undisciplined manner."
20 Paragraph 4: "The order shall become effective immediately ...
21 commanders of the directly subordinated units to be in charge of
23 Those units are named there. Commander Vukic signed it, and page
24 3 goes on to show the other units.
25 That's the 10th of August at a time when you were making
1 complaints, General Forand. Were you aware, in fact, that the commanders
2 of units were issuing orders not to prevent -- to prevent crimes and
3 undisciplined acts?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Did anyone make you aware of the measures that were being
6 taken --
7 A. Not --
8 Q. -- within the Croatian armed forces, orders that were being
9 issued to prevent crimes and other illegal acts?
10 A. Not that I remember, sir.
11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, it's half past 10.00. I know I'm at the
12 end of my allotment.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, apparently, you have agreed with other
15 MR. KAY: We have an agreement. There were further orders within
16 this sequence of military measures relevant to this issue, Your Honour,
17 which are relevant to the state of mind of this witness and the
18 declarations made by him.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The type of documents that were shown to you
20 in the last five minutes, are you aware of the existence of any other
21 such, if I could say, internal follow-up documents within the Croatian
22 structures about the matters as dealt with in these documents?
23 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Tieger, I take it that if Mr. Kay wants to
25 produce such documents, that -- from the bar table, that we will hear
1 from you whether there is any objection to it, first of all, as a matter
2 of principle, and then, of course, second to every single document.
3 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it as a matter of principle not that you
5 would like to have a look at them.
6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, of course.
7 MR. KAY: They are all Prosecution 65 ter documents, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, again, the fact that they are from the
9 Prosecution, as such, is not given in itself much weight. The only thing
10 is that, of course, the Prosecution should be aware of the existence of
11 these documents.
12 MR. KAY: Yes. It's that they were to be used in trial, as I
13 understood it from --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. KAY: Yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So that diminishes the risk of --
17 MR. TIEGER: Precisely. I mean, no one is suggesting there's
18 going to be a problem. I would just like to see what we're talking
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. Then, Mr. Kay, there was a similar
21 issue outstanding about a bundle you produced before.
22 MR. KAY: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to hear the Prosecution's
24 view on that. I already can give a short comment, Mr. Kay, that not all
25 of these documents are translated; therefore, I think if you want to have
1 a full set, that at least every document should be there, and at least in
2 one of the official languages. And since they were all drafted in B/C/S,
3 the originals are there but we can't do without translations.
4 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Not all of them are translated. Many of them are
6 but not all of them.
7 MR. KAY: They are uploaded, apparently. The Prosecution have
8 been diligent in relation to Your Honours' guidance as to the management
9 of the file.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KAY: They are uploaded, and I anticipate if they've been
12 uploaded, that there will be a translation now in the system. If not,
13 those are matters that we can return to with the --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. KAY: -- translation department.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is this Chamber has no access to
17 uploaded documents, as such, if they are not released. We have a
18 different type of access where you put them at standby for being tendered
19 and admitted. We have no access to your series of documents that are in
20 the waiting cue, as a matter of fact.
21 MR. KAY: You're lucky, Your Honour, is all I can say.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I can usually find my way through an electronic
24 MR. KAY: The last document, Your Honour -- I am sorry if I
25 crossed Your Honour. I was not being rude. It was just to be to be made
1 an exhibit, so I don't lose my document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger, that was the last one of the
3 examples given.
4 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D325.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
8 Mr. Forand, we'll have a break until 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
12 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You are on your feet, may I take it you are the next
14 one to cross-examine Mr. Forand.
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Forand, you will now be cross-examined by
17 Mr. Kehoe who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
19 Q. Good morn, General.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. General, I would like to go through some items that were in your
22 statement starting with the 1996 statement, and go through several issues
23 with you.
24 MR. KEHOE: That would be P330.
25 Q. Then talk to you about some of the items that were in your
1 recitation that you gave to the Canadian Armed Forces.
2 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, it may be helpful if I give the hard
3 copy to the witness with the assistance of the usher.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher.
5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I have a copy for Your Honours as well
6 as for the Prosecution.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Of the statement?
8 MR. KEHOE: Of the statement. As well as, there's also an item
9 to be introduced into evidence which is a comparison for the two, which
10 is in e-court at 1D28-0151. So the witness has been given P330 and P401,
11 and a red-lined version which is 1D28-0151.
12 May I proceed, Your Honour?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may.
14 MR. KEHOE:
15 Q. General, if we may, and if we can just briefly take a look at
16 your 1996 statement, which is P130, and go to page 3, we start with you
17 talking about: "Let me turn to the Croatian offensive nicknamed
18 Operation Storm."
19 And if we can go to P401, which is your DEM presentation, and
20 turn to page 18, you can see, General, that the verbiage starting at the
21 top is virtually identical or it is identical, is it not?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. So when you -- this presentation to the DEM presentation by you
24 took place on June the 24th, and the interview in P330 took place August
25 19th and 20th, 1996. Did they -- you provided this to the investigator,
1 Mr. Robertsson, and he essentially wrote this out, did he not, following
2 your presentation? Is that correct?
3 A. Well, if I remember how it went is that I had written that
4 presentation; and when this individual came to query me, I was using the
5 presentation to refer to the questions he was asking me.
6 Q. And as you look through, even on the first sentence of the
7 paragraph, it's the same exact words, is it not?
8 A. Well, I would have to go through it to see if, throughout, it's
9 the same exact word, but it was based on my presentation, yes.
10 Q. Let's do that, then. In that page that we looked at, the first
11 page of page 18 -- or let us start with P330. You note in the first
12 sentence of the second paragraph: "Firstly, there was an orchestrated
13 psychological campaign of troops and equipment movements by the Croatian
14 forces ..."
15 Do you see that, sir?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. In your presentation, there is -- the rest of the sentence has
18 been deleted. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in your presentation, it reads, "Firstly, there was an
21 orchestrated psychological campaign of troop and equipment movements by
22 the Croatian force, calculated to keep the ARSK on edge and to mislead
23 them as to their intentions."
24 Now, that last part --
25 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. "Future intentions" is what it
2 MR. KEHOE: I apologise "future intentions ..."
3 Q. Now that last part has been stricken from your statement. When
4 you wrote your presentation to the DEM, did you intend that sentence to
5 be directed towards a psychological campaign against the ARSK?
6 A. You mean that last sentence to mislead them as to their future
8 Q. You say, in D401, your DEM presentation," ... calculated to keep
9 the ARSK on edge and to mislead them as to their future intentions."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So when you were talking about the psychological campaign in your
12 statement, you were talking about a psychological campaign to keep the
13 ARSK, the army, on edge, weren't you?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 MR. KEHOE: For ease of reference, Your Honour, I may -- we can
16 flip back and forth, but if we can put 1D280-151 on the screen, Judge,
17 that is the statement that I have taken the liberty to red line through,
18 so for ease of reference.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's certainly assists for comparison reasons.
20 MR. KEHOE: Frankly, Your Honour, it's difficult at times, so we
21 did this just because of that.
22 We can turn to the next page.
23 I also want to note, Your Honour, that the entire 401 has not
24 been translated because some of it was not, of course, part of -- part of
25 P330 because it had to do with some other matters.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's now the second time. I refrained from
2 commenting it the first time; but when you said "it's stricken from your
3 statement," it does not appear in the statement.
4 MR. KEHOE: It does not appear in the statement.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's here also, you now said, because of
6 course it was not part of P330. The witness explained that P330 was
7 created by frequent reference to his presentation, but not that it was
8 part of it and not that it ...
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. KEHOE:
11 Q. Now let us move down to where it says "thirdly," and move to the
12 bottom of that paragraph.
13 MR. KEHOE: If we go to the next page in the red line.
14 Q. Now, the way it reads in your statement to the OTP, it notes:
15 "Even after the fall of Grahovo, it was business as usual in Knin with
16 the few soldiers that were there due to rotation or manning the barracks.
17 They were lounging in bars or shopping in the streets. We saw no
18 defensive position erected, no blocking positions created. A very
19 strange reaction given the overall situation."
20 MR. KEHOE: Let us turn to the item in P401.
21 Q. And you note in P401, and this is on page 19, that: "Even after
22 the fall of Grahovo, it was business as usual with soldiers lounging in
23 the bars or shopping in the streets."
24 In your statement to the DEM, there is no adjective "few" there.
25 Do you see that, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Likewise, in your statement to the OTP, after it notes that there
3 was a few soldiers, there is the inclusion "that were there due to
4 rotation or manning the barracks."
5 Now, no such description is set forth in your statement to
6 the OTP. You only note that there are soldiers in the town; is that
8 A. That's what's written there, yes, sir.
9 Q. And you, sir, when you saw these soldiers, really had no idea
10 what they were doing, if they were stationed there or they were moving in
11 and out, do you?
12 A. Yes, sir. That's true, yes.
13 MR. KEHOE: I'm just letting the translators catch up, General.
14 Q. Now, if we can turn to your statement that you gave to the DEM,
15 you said, "We saw only a small --"
16 A. Sorry. It's not a statement.
17 Q. It's a presentation.
18 A. It's a big difference, in my view; and to them, that was a daily
19 executive meeting. That was the chief of defence staff and the three
20 star in the armed forces, but I never gave that -- even though it was
21 slated to be given to them, I never gave that presentation to the daily
22 executive meeting.
23 Q. Okay, sir. So this was just something that was written by you
24 but never actually presented?
25 A. Not to the daily executive meeting. I presented it maybe three,
1 four times to some of the military that had been with me in Croatia
2 know, afterwards as I was moving throughout the country but, it was not
3 presented to the daily executive meeting.
4 Q. Thank you for that clarification, General.
5 If we can go back to this and go to the next sentence, you say
6 that: "We saw only a small increase of military traffic towards the
8 Now, that is not in your 1993 statement to the OTP. Is that
9 accurate, sir, that you did, in fact, see -- excuse me, 1996. Is that
10 accurate that you did, in fact, see an increase in military traffic
11 towards the border?
12 A. The -- how this presentation came about was obviously over a
13 series of months, and some of what I put in there obviously is my own
14 previous reflection, but it was based on information that I possessed at
15 that time. And when we say there was no -- in that instance, it was near
16 Strmica, which was close to the border of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and not
17 too far from Bos Grahovo.
18 And the report I was getting from the Kenyan observation post
19 that was there reflected that they had not seen any increase, you know,
20 in military traffic. That's what I referred to in this particular
22 Q. That they had not seen an increase?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Well, let's go through that. You were aware that in the summer
25 of 1995, the HV had successfully taken -- late July 1995, that the HV had
1 successfully taken Grahovo?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And were you aware that the HV -- excuse me, that the ARSK was
4 moving troops and supplies up to the Strmica area to counter the HV
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Well, let me show you D222.
8 MR. KEHOE: We'll go back to the red line in a moment, Your
10 Q. Now, this is a map, sir, of movement between Knin to Strmica and
11 to the Grahovo area. Are you familiar with this route?
12 A. I'm familiar with the route, but not this map.
13 Q. I understand. And are you -- but you're unfamiliar or you have
14 no knowledge of troops or supplies moving, using that route to augment
15 ARSK forces on the front between Strmica and Grahovo?
16 A. No, sir. The report that I had during that period was they were
17 ARSK troop moving from Knin towards Bihac.
18 Q. Towards Bihac.
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Now let me turn your attention to D223.
21 General, this is a letter from General Mrksic to General Janvier
22 in Zagreb
23 this has put in jeopardy the transportation of humanitarian aid.
24 Did you receive this letter?
25 A. No, sir.
1 Q. Did you receive any information coming from Zagreb that the ARSK
2 was complaining about HV shelling in the Strmica area?
3 A. I don't remember anything coming from Zagreb, but there was some
4 sitrep where there was some exchange of fire occurring between the ARSK
5 and the HVO troops in that particular area within that time-frame, yes,
7 Q. Well, did -- I'm just taking a pause between our question and
9 Did you talk to the ARSK about the shelling by the HVO up
10 around -- excuse me, by the HV, in and around the Strmica area?
11 A. I don't remember, sir.
12 Q. Well, let me ask you: Mr. Jeff Hill, or Captain Hill, was your
13 chief of military police or the head of the military police; is that
15 A. He was under operational -- my operational control, which meant
16 that I could give him some specific tasks but, he was under operational
17 command of UNCRO. But he was located with his people in our headquarter,
18 yes, sir.
19 Q. General, in latter part of July, Mr. Hill testified that he went
20 up to the Strmica area.
21 And on page 3812, line 21, he notes, this is the question: "Now,
22 were the front lines that you stumbled into ARSK front lines?"
23 Answer: "Yes."
24 Question: "They now had tanks. T-80 and T-84s are the more
25 modern versions of the former JNA tanks, aren't they?"
1 Answer: "It is a designation for the JNA tank. But T-80, for
2 example, was known as the T-72 by NATO Russian, one of their better ones.
3 T-84 is an APC JNA, which is actually a BMP-2 Russian NATO."
4 He talks about is seeing a lot of brass on the road on 3814.
5 "When you noticed that there was a lot of brass on the road, what
6 did you mean by that Captain?"
7 "From their cannons on the APCs, the road was littered with
8 cannon shells. We were actually driving over them."
9 That same page, 3814: "Are these shells coming from the
10 ARSK APCs?"
11 Answer: "Yes."
12 Now, we can go on. Now, did Captain Hill come back and inform
13 you, while he was up, that there were, in fact, military weaponry in that
14 area that was firing into the HVO line?
15 A. I don't remember Captain Hill briefing me; but as I mentioned
16 earlier, we were aware that there was exchange of fire that had been
17 ongoing in that particular area.
18 Q. Now, you noted that --
19 MR. KEHOE: If I can have one moment.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. KEHOE:
22 Q. Just as an aside, you noted for us that you had some control over
23 the military police, and you made a distinction between operational
24 command and operational control. Can you explain that for us?
25 A. Operational control is that I can give him some tasks, you know,
1 which he will do for me, like certain inquiry, certain type of specific
2 task. But he was under the command of the UNCRO headquarters which
3 provided him, you know, direct orders, plus administrative support and
4 all of that.
5 Q. Now, in the latter part of July, you tasked Captain Berikoff to
6 go up to the Strmica area, didn't you?
7 A. I don't remember. I remember that I went myself once because I
8 wanted to ensure that the Kenyan observation post that was there
9 increased their security, because I had given order to all of my people
10 that if ever there was an attack from the Croat side, I wanted them to
11 remain in their observation post and I wanted them to increase their own
13 MR. KEHOE: Well, if we can turn to 1D28-0019, which is a excerpt
14 from Captain Berikoff's diary.
15 Q. At the top of the page, on 30, 31, 30 July, Sunday: "Up at 0700,
16 another day. Not sure what will happen today. It was quiet last night.
17 Everything tasked to go and spend the night in Strmica with the Kenyans.
18 Very interesting. Saw all kinds of equipment on the way there: BMPs,
19 M-12s, anti-tank gun, M-84 tanks, and everything. Shelling started at
20 1830 and continued for an hour and a half. Two M-84 tanks crossed border
21 of BH at about 1900. Then one came back a couple of hours later. Many
22 ARSK around the area."
23 If you note on July 31st: "Departed the crossing point at 0630.
24 Returned to Sector South HQ, briefed the General."
25 Do you recall that, General?
1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. So you don't recall sending Captain Berikoff up there?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Now, the sending of Captain Berikoff up there, would that have
5 been because you didn't have faith in the Kenyan Battalion?
6 A. Well, I wouldn't say it's not because I had faith; it's just to
7 get complementary information.
8 Q. Now, when you ultimately wrote to General Gotovina in this --
9 MR. KEHOE: If we can go to P336, which is a letter from you to
10 General Gotovina, 31 July 1995
11 Q. Without reading this letter in it's entirety, you bring General
12 Gotovina aware of your UN elements in Strmica. But in this letter, you
13 say nothing about civilians, do you?
14 A. No, sir, because all I'm talking about is my UN observation
16 Q. Well, I understand. However, if we go to P333, paragraph 4, you
17 note on -- in paragraph 4, you noted: "In late July ..."
18 This is your 2008 statement: "In late July, 1995, the town of
19 Strmica had come under artillery fire from HV/HVO positions in the area
20 of Bosanski Grahovo. In addition to the civilians in that area, there
21 was a KenBat observation post near the border at Strmica."
22 Now, we just noted in P336 that there was no mention of civilians
23 in your letter to General Gotovina.
24 MR. KEHOE: And if we can bring up P337, and if we can go to
25 page 3 of that document -- make that 4.
1 Q. And under the miscellaneous paragraph, if we can go to the next
2 page, this is discussing --
3 MR. KEHOE: If we stay on the bottom of that page one moment.
4 Q. You can see at the bottom the --
5 MR. KEHOE: Go back to the prior page, just one moment, I
7 Q. If we note at the bottom on paragraph 3: "SLO Sector South
8 visited the area the Strmica." This has to do with Colonel Tymchuk's
9 visit to Strmica.
10 If we go to the next page, the top paragraph, about midway
11 through, it notes: "For most of the 70 minutes spent in the area, the
12 sound of artillery could be heard with many projectiles from the Croat
13 side impacting within a kilometre. There were no civilians evident in
15 General, do you know when the civilians that had been in Strmica
16 left Strmica?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Now, throughout the next several days, you received sitreps, did
19 you not, that there was continuous exchange of fire in the Strmica area
20 between the ARSK and the HV, didn't you?
21 A. I seem to recall that, yes, sir. I think it's reflected in the
22 sitrep, also.
23 Q. Yes. Now, during this period of time, were you in contact with
24 the ARSK forces in Knin in late July?
25 A. I don't remember, myself, personally. Some of my staff might
1 have been. I don't remember myself.
2 Q. Would it be fair to say that Colonel Tymchuk might have been in
3 contact with him?
4 A. Either Colonel Tymchuk or Colonel Leslie, who was my Chief of
5 Staff at that time.
6 Q. Did either Colonel Leslie or Colonel Tymchuk tell you that, in
7 conversation with the ARSK, that they were planning an offensive known as
8 "Dinara 95" against the HVO to retake Grahovo?
9 A. I don't recall that, sir.
10 Q. Let me see if one thing refreshes your recollection.
11 MR. KEHOE: If we can turn to D161, page 3.
12 Q. And I know you haven't seen this document, General. I just ask
13 if this refreshes your memory. I suspect you haven't seen it. This is
14 an account of the chief logistics officer of the ARSK.
15 MR. KEHOE: If we can turn to the insert for 30 July 1995,
16 three-quarters down the page.
17 Q. If we can just read that, 30 July 1995: "I took part in making
18 plans for attacking Operation Dinara 95. Also 220 soldiers were planned
19 for this operation with the assistance of the RSK, air force and units of
20 the 7th Corps, 15th Corps, and the Special Units Corps. The goal of this
21 operation was to liberate Grahovo in coordination with the VRS," VRS
22 being the Bosnian Serb army.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. KEHOE:
1 Q. Does that refresh your recollection in this regard at all?
2 A. No, sir. I never saw that.
3 Q. Now, going back to your statement.
4 MR. KEHOE: And if we could go back to the red line, which is
6 Q. If we can go back to your statement to the Office of the
7 Prosecutor, as well as the DEM presentation, in the last sentence of your
8 OTP statement, you say you saw no defensive positions erected.
9 In your statement -- excuse me. In your presentation, I'm sorry,
10 in your presentation, DEM presentation, you note: "We saw only a small
11 increase of military traffic towards the border, no new defensive
12 positions erected."
13 Now, during the time you were there, were there defensive
14 positions that you observed?
15 A. Not me personally, no, sir.
16 Q. Well, through your personnel that were travelling in the area?
17 A. When I had been briefed, when I arrived in the sector, I had been
18 briefed that there was certain defensive positions that were in place,
20 Q. And were these put in place by the ARSK?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Yet in this particular presentation, the word you have "new" has
23 been deleted from your statement?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: I just think there should be some geographic
1 specificity with that question: Where and what the defensive positions
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You can, of course, deal with that in
4 re-examination. But if we could already, if there is a real risk of
5 confusion and mixing up, then you are invited, Mr. Kehoe, to avoid that
6 to happen.
7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
8 Q. If we can if we can move into the "fourthly" paragraph, in that
9 first in your statement, you note that: "Fourthly, on the RSK side,
10 their continuous hard like taken towards negotiations and the ARSK
11 support of the Bosnian Serb offensive against Bihac from Sector North
12 were pointless actions that only contributed to the sense of hopelessness
13 in the Krajina."
14 The next sentence: "These actions also played into the hands of
15 the Croats by giving them an argument for the military option which in a
16 way, I think, President Tudjman and his Generals wanted ..."
17 Let us turn our attention to the presentation and focus on that
18 last sentence: "These actions also played into the hands of the Croats
19 by giving them a valid argument for the military option. To this day, it
20 is hard to understand the reasoning by those who ordered these actions or
21 did not take the appropriate measures in reaction to the evolving threat.
22 There must be some unknown factors or deals here."
23 Your presentation at the time, in June of 1996, described the
24 Operation Storm, or the beginning of Operation Storm, being premised on a
25 valid argument; isn't that right?
1 A. That's what is written there, yes, sir.
2 Q. And that was written by you?
3 A. Yes, sir, but it was based on my interpretation. You know that
4 made it clear when I made that presentation that was based, you know, of
5 what I had been -- what I had seen and what was my interpretation of what
6 had happened, and it was not based on all complete and full proof.
7 Q. I understand. Let us continue on, on this score.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. KEHOE:
10 Q. By the way, General, just looking at P330, the OTP statement, who
11 typed this?
12 A. I beg your pardon?
13 Q. This statement that the Office of the Prosecutor -- that you
14 signed for the Office of the Prosecutor, who typed this?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Let us continue on, and we go to the paragraph starting at the
17 bottom, "I truly believe," that carries on to the next page.
18 It notes: "I truly believe that by the eve of war, the Krajina
19 had been psychologically defeated. I am not a proponent of certain
20 propaganda line that the HV are a powerful professional force."
21 Just starting from there, General, you knew that this was an army
22 that had just begun, isn't that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Had been formed approximately a year or so prior to Operation
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. "Most of their attacks were uncoordinated and went nowhere. It
3 was not obvious that they have mastered the tactics of interaction of
4 combat arms. The use of artillery was excellent when being used against
5 military targets."
6 Let us stop right there.
7 MR. KEHOE: If we can turn back to Exhibit 401.
8 Q. And on page 20 of 45 at the top paragraph, the sentence that you
9 have is, the top paragraph, that: "The use of artillery was excellent,
10 but the coordination between artillery, tanks, and infantry was not
12 Now, what's included in the OTP statement that's not included in
13 your presentation is the following: "Their use of artillery was
14 excellent when being used against military targets; however, the
15 artillery was, to a large extent, used against villages and towns like
16 Knin, and not against targets in the zone of separation. This shelling
17 created mass panic among the population and forced it to leave."
18 Now, we see, first, that the -- your description in your
19 presentation, as you wrote it in your presentation, was meant to be a
20 complement on the accuracy of HVO artillery fire, wasn't it?
21 A. I'm not so sure if it was meant to be perceived as complement,
22 but that's the way I wrote it there. But I think I explained a little
23 bit later on, you know, where the shelling has taken place.
24 Q. Well, suffice it to say, that you noted that it was excellent?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. And you -- going on to the sentence following, you don't include
2 in your presentation that: "... the shelling created mass panic among
3 the population and forced it to flee." That's in page 20 in your
4 presentation at the top.
5 A. Yes. But I wrote later on why the Serbs did not shell the
6 Croatian city, as the HV were doing to them. I mean, what you have here
7 in my statement, you know, is a very condensed of what was in my
8 presentation. I think you have to go through the whole presentation if
9 you want to make those type of relationship.
10 Q. We'll do that.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Let's continue on. What's also left out, if we move on and stay
13 in your presentation, starting with the paragraph of: "However, we have
14 to recognise that the Croatians had tremendous strategic success and that
15 their small special force units did successfully accomplish special
17 Now, that particular sentence is not included in the statement to
18 the OTP. Now, would you consider that to be a complementary statement
19 for the HV?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Did you make the decision not to include it in your statement to
22 the Office of the Prosecutor?
23 A. I don't remember. I don't think that I wilfully exempted certain
24 things from my deposition that was in my presentation.
25 Q. General, did you give this statement to Mr. Robertsson, and he
1 retyped this and gave it back to you to sign [Realtime transcript read in
2 error "resign"]?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Let's continue on. After you note that the Croats don't possess
5 a professional army, this is the overall sentence, it notes in your OTP
6 statement: "I believe that the Croatians do not possess a professional
7 army or have developed a capability to utilise the combat power to its
8 full extent. The result may have been different had the ARSK not
9 stripped some of its resources in Bihac, but instead prepared second and
10 third defence lines especially in the areas that favour this, and would
11 have been able to sustain the fear of the HV, the HV artillery attacks
12 against villages and towns, especially Knin, instead of panicking and
13 evacuating the civilian population."
14 Now, let us turn to your presentation on that score. After you
15 note again that, I believe, verbatim: "I believe that the Croatians do
16 not possess a professional army or have developed the capability to
17 utilise combat power to its full extent. The results may have been quite
18 different had the ARSK not tripped some of its resources to unducate the
19 Bihac offensive, or had not taken the decision on 4 August to order the
20 withdrawal of the civilian population from Sector South. By this last
21 action, the RSK appeared to be giving up and inevitably initiated the
22 general retreat that followed."
23 Now, General, that passage, we've noted, is not included in your
24 OTP statement; and in that statement, you maintain that the decision to
25 evacuate - and I don't want to put words in your mouth, General; you can
1 correct me if I am wrong - the decision to evacuate was the trigger that
2 initiated the general retreat that followed, wasn't it?
3 A. That was certainly a great factor, yes.
4 Q. Now, when Mr. Robertsson retyped this for you, General, he did
5 not include that sentence in your statement to the OTP, did he?
6 A. No, it's not there.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I have some --
8 Mr. Kehoe, one of your earlier questions was: "General, did you
9 give this statement to Mr. Robertsson, and he retyped this and gave it
10 back to you to" sign, I take it. It says "resign." But, first of all,
11 it talks about the statement. Do I have to understand your testimony to
12 be that you gave your written presentation --
13 MR. KEHOE: Presentation, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- to Mr. Robertsson?
15 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if I gave it to him, sir, or if I was
16 referring to my presentation when he was asking me question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, you earlier said: "I don't know
18 who typed it." And in this answer, you say, "He retyped this," which
19 suggests that you would know who typed the statement as given to the OTP.
20 THE WITNESS: Did I just say that, that he retyped this? I don't
21 remember that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was part of a question. The question
23 was: "General, did you give this statement," and apparently Mr. Kehoe
24 had on his mind his presentation to Mr. Robertsson, "and he retyped this
25 and gave it back to you to," I take it you said "sign."
1 Then your answer was: "Yes, sir."
2 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge, this DEM presentation was received
3 from the Office of the Prosecutor as part of -- coming from the
4 Canadians -- excuse me, signed by General Forand, and as an exhibit to
5 one of his statements.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you mean. He identified it as --
7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But, still, the retyping is rather unclear to me.
9 MR. KEHOE: I will clarify it, Judge.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you please do so, because I'm a bit
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. General, the presentation that you put together for 24 June 1996,
14 you gave this to the OTP -- the Office of the Prosecutor's investigator,
15 didn't you?
16 A. I'm not sure if it was in 1996 or 1997, but they have a copy of
17 it, yes, sir.
18 Q. Now, when your statement was written that you signed, P330,
19 you -- were you the person who typed this or did one of the investigators
20 type it before you signed it?
21 A. I didn't type it. I think the statement was taken on a tape and
22 it was sent back to me, you know, to verify, you know, if it was what I
23 had said, and I signed it; and if I remember well, I sent it back.
24 Q. With all due respect, General, I think you're talking about the
25 second statement that was on tape.
1 A. Possibly.
2 Q. There was an awful --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. There was a statement that was on tape, in fairness, General.
5 A. So it was the first one? I don't remember, sir.
6 Q. Now, General, if we can continue on, on this score --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I still try to find out.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: What Mr. Kehoe is putting to you is that there is a
10 striking resemblance of major portions of your August 1996 statement
11 compared to the 24th of June presentation.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Many lines just the same, apparently portions taken
14 out, portions added. First of all, the 24th of June, 1996 presentation,
15 had you typed it out your is self or did you have an electronic copy
16 available to yourself? The presentation.
17 THE WITNESS: I did not type it personally, no, sir.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It was typewritten for you.
19 THE WITNESS: It was typewritten, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have an electronic copy of the text?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever provide that electronic copy to the
23 persons who interviewed you two months later, mid-August 1996.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't remember, sir, and I don't remember if I
25 gave them that copy in 1996 or in 1997, you know. When it was provided
1 to them, I don't remember. But, in all likelihood, if it was provided, I
2 would have given them also an electronic copy.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now when you signed this August 1996
4 statement, did you read it carefully again?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Last question on this issue: The presentation, you
7 said you didn't type it out. Did you give the formulations? I mean was
8 it that you wrote it down in handwriting, or I mean if someone else typed
9 it out, was it on the basis of what you had dictated in a machine or
10 written down on paper?
11 THE WITNESS: The way it started, sir, it was a Major Balfour,
12 and I had told him I wanted to prepare something on my return to Canada
13 I gave him the headings that needed to be covered, and I said start on
14 this. So it was a working document that took almost a year to be
15 completed when I returned to Canada
16 collect all the slides, the photo, and all of that. So he gave me a CD.
17 When I came back home, I started to put it together.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. Now, in your presentation that we just read on page 20,
22 concerning the evacuation, you don't use the word - and I'm talking about
23 the second paragraph on page 20 - you don't use the word "panicking" or
24 "evacuating," do you?
25 A. No, it's not there, sir.
1 Q. Now, if we can continue on, on this, this is another matter that
2 is paragraph -- if we go down to the paragraph, "To this day ..."
3 In your presentation, it notes: "To this day, there are
4 questions to which I have no answers. Why was there no second line of
5 defence prepared, especially when the ground favours it? The only
6 military aim that the ARSK could have had to buy time demanded it."
7 Now, again, that is not in your OTP statement, and my question is
8 on the issue of buying time. What were you talking about, General, with
9 the ARSK buying time?
10 Now we're talking about your page 20 of 45 of your presentation.
11 A. Well, in order for them, you know, to be able to further develop
12 their defensive position, which they had not done at this particular
14 Q. Well, I mean, if they had a second and third line defence
15 position, your testimony is that that would have bought them some time?
16 A. If they would have been able to block the HV attack, you know,
17 when that would have happened, then, obviously, the longer it would have
18 taken the Croat to retake the Krajina, the more time maybe, you know,
19 some external organisation or country would have step up and say, "Okay,
20 let's stop the fighting and resume the discussion." That's what I had in
21 mind there.
22 Q. Just to flesh that out a bit, General, were you contemplating the
23 Bosnian Serb army or the JNA intervening to come to the aid and
24 assistance of the ARSK?
25 A. No, sir, that's not what I had in mind there. All I was trying
1 to portray, if they had developed, you know, secondary defensive position
2 which the terrain, from my point of view, allowed them to do, they could
3 have stopped potentially the attack, and potentially, you know, the
4 discussion for peace would have resumed. That was what I meant by that.
5 Q. Who did you have in mind was going to come in and intervene?
6 A. Intervene? Well, the United Nations.
7 Q. Thank you for that.
8 MR. KEHOE: Let us move on in the statement, if we may, and if we
9 can go back to the 1D28-0051, the red line.
10 Q. By the way, General, following up on what you just said, waiting
11 for the UN to intervene. You were the UN.
12 A. But I don't think I had that type of authority. I was referring
13 back to my experience in 1974 in Cyprus
14 attack, there was a lull in the battle that was imposed by the United
15 Nations before it resumed. So, in my mind, you know, if there was
16 sufficient capability for the ARSK to defend, potentially the UN may have
17 put some pressure on both sides to resume the peace. So that's what I
18 had in mind.
19 Q. Was there discussion about that, that, in fact, if there was some
20 battle that was resisted, that the UN would, in fact, intervene to bring
21 about a secession of hostilities?
22 A. Not to my knowledge.
23 Q. Let us turn to your presentation, and I will take you through.
24 MR. KEHOE: And I apologise if I jump and a bit.
25 Q. I want to turn to page 22 of your presentation, and I believe
1 that will go -- begins the paragraph, "The first successful area ..."
2 MR. KEHOE: Yeah, that's it. If we can go to the red line up a
3 couple of pages. At the red line, it starts with, "The first successful
4 area," at the top. It's 1D28-0151 and page 6 of that document.
5 Q. Now, General, we actually have -- this is, as you can see,
6 much -- starting of that has been stricken, but let's just go through
7 this very quickly.
8 We're talking about events on the 4th: "The first area is the
9 successful penetration in the south-east by HV 10 company when they came
10 over the Dinara mountains from Bosnia
11 around 10.00 a.m.
12 And we now move into a discussion of a particular area that is
13 not in the statement, and I take it from the presentation 401, page 22:
14 "This was done during 4 August around 10.00 a.m., and the
15 question of the lack of ARSK defences in the area must be revisited. The
16 Serbs were well aware of the threat, especially following the fall of
17 Grahovo, but did not react to defend, block, or counter it. As soon as
18 the penetration began, the ARSK abandoned their positions at Maljkovo and
19 fled without blocking a six-kilometre portion of road, which was the
20 ideal choke point for reserve demolitions or blocking positions. This
21 gave the HV the opportunity to link up their force advancing from the
22 south and reinforce on a major route."
23 Now --
24 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, minor correction. Again, just to get the
25 record straight; not "the ideal" but "an ideal."
1 MR. KEHOE: Apologies. Thank you. "An ideal."
2 Q. Now, taking a look at that, General, I would like to bring an
3 item up on the screen because you talk about Maljkovo.
4 MR. KEHOE: It's 1D28-0173 -- 74, please.
5 Q. General, this is a -- one of the slides from your outline that
6 has Maljkovo present there; do you see that?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. That's the area that you're talking about that is north of the
9 lake that was the choke point; right?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 MR. KEHOE: Now let me go to the next map, which is 0173, the one
12 we just had up on the screen.
13 Q. Now, General, I have an item on the screen. As you can see,
14 Maljkovo is not on the north part of the lake but on the south part of
15 the lake, and it appears from your map that you were, in fact, talking
16 about the choke point at Vrlika; is that right?
17 A. As I said, from the area of Maljkovo.
18 Q. I understand, General, but your prior map on Maljkovo had
19 Maljkovo north of the lake?
20 A. It was not the precise map, you know, it was end round.
21 Q. Well, Maljkovo is, in fact, all the way down at the bottom of the
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you, in fact, talking about Vrlika?
25 A. I was talking from the direction of Maljkovo.
1 Q. Well, do you see where Maljkovo is on the map?
2 A. Yeah, I see that.
3 Q. And, so, your position is that you were talking about the -- when
4 you were dealing with your map, you were talking about the Maljkovo at
5 the bottom of that page?
6 General, if looking at the map, the choke point of the
7 convergence of these roads is in Vrlika, isn't it?
8 A. No. To me, I was saying is that there were some defensive
9 positions at Maljkovo, which they fled, they didn't stay there. So
10 whatever was coming from the south was able to link up with the
11 10 company that came in from the east in the Dinara. That's all I'm
12 saying in what you see on my presentation.
13 Q. Well, were you familiar with the ARSK positions in Vrlika?
14 A. Familiar, in what sense?
15 Q. Well, did you know of those ARSK positions in Vrlika?
16 A. There were some, yes, but I'm not that familiar with it.
17 Q. Well, I just want to ask you, given your testimony, that Vrlika
18 is in the Cetina valley, isn't it?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And you stated during the course of your direct testimony, at
21 page 4117: Question: "Did you see any evidence of Serb weaponry or
22 positions in the area where the shelling was taking place or where the
23 harvest was being prevented?"
24 Answer: "No. I did what I would think or qualify as a complete
25 tour of the area, and I didn't see none of those weapons."
1 Now, how many times did you actually travel in the Cetina Valley
3 A. Only once.
4 Q. And when was that?
5 A. I think it was around -- it was in July. It must have been
6 around the 11th or 12th of July. It's in the sitrep.
7 Q. And sir, during that period of time, there were, in fact,
8 restrictions of movement transpiring in the Cetina Valley
10 A. Not that I remember, no, sir.
11 Q. Well, did you have -- you had restrictions of movement by the
12 ARSK during that time, sir, didn't you?
13 A. I don't remember that, sir.
14 Q. Let's go back to your statement, if we can, 401 -- the
15 presentation, excuse me.
16 401, page 10, third paragraph from the top: "The army of the
17 republic of Serb Krajina or ARSK were better known to us as we dealt with
18 them on a daily basis. Nonetheless, we only had a superficial
19 appreciation of their strengths and weaknesses as they also restricted
20 our movements. And following the 1st May attack of Sector West, they had
21 withdrawn all of their equipment from the storage -- weapons storage
22 area, therefore inhibiting our accounting and verification of their
24 So, after May the 1st, did you have restriction of movement in
25 the Cetina valley?
1 A. I don't remember the Cetina valley. You are asking me
2 specifically if it was restricted. I don't remember that. When went
3 over there, I was restricted to go around the whole area. This statement
4 that you've just read in my presentation meant that certain areas we
5 could not go.
6 Q. Where could you not go?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. Now, this also notes - and when I say "this," I'm talking about
9 your presentation - that: "The ARSK had withdrawn all their equipment
10 from the storage area, therefore inhibiting our accounting and
11 verification of their assets."
12 So it would be accurate to say that you don't know what kind of
13 weaponry the ARSK had; isn't that right?
14 A. Well, maybe not me specifically; but before I had arrived, the
15 United Nations had been there for a certain period of time. I think I
16 they had a certain knowledge of what the ARSK possess. You've got to
17 remember also that my mandate was in the zone of separation, plus the 13
18 Croat village and the four crossing border point. The responsibility on
19 monitoring the equipment on both side was of the military observer
21 Q. General, in July -- and let me again give you the testimony of
22 Mr. Hill, Captain Hill, page 3809.
23 He testified here on the 28th of May, talking about the equipment
24 in the Cetina Valley
25 artillery pieces and tanks that you saw in and around Vrlika, can you
1 explain with a little more specificity, Captain, exactly, what you say?"
2 Answer: "When we say "tanks," it would be T-54s or T-72s, NATO
3 designation; APCs; MP-2s; and the artillery would be towed at
4 130 millimetre."
5 Now, did Captain Hill tell you about that equipment that he
6 observed in the Cetina valley in late July?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: I note that the answer, or the question, didn't
9 specify a time period, and I thought that would be obviously helpful to
10 the question and potential answer. But I think, after I rose, I think
11 Mr. Kehoe mentioned it was in late July.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So the matter is moot.
13 Please proceed. Answer the question, please.
14 THE WITNESS: It was on the typing; it's marked 28th of May. I
15 arrive only -- I took over on the 8th of July.
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. I'm sorry, General. That's his testimony, 28th of May, 2008.
18 That's when he testified here. I apologise if I wasn't clear. That's
19 what he testified to when he was here on 28th May.
20 A. So which date are you referring that he saw that equipment?
21 Q. He says in late July of 1995?
22 MR. TIEGER: It says -- according to the question posed to you,
23 it says: "At the end of the July, he noted that ..."
24 MR. KEHOE: Late July, end of July. I apologise --
25 MR. TIEGER: [Overlapping speakers] ... I just think that
1 references to the document seem preferable.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
3 THE WITNESS: When I went there, sir, I didn't see that
4 particular equipment, and I don't recall Captain Hill briefing me on
5 that. It's possible, but I don't recall.
6 MR. KEHOE:
7 Q. And the UNMOs in the area, there was a Mr. Tchernetsky that
8 testified that: "There was an anti-aircraft gun, an anti-aircraft
9 artillery ..." --
10 This is what he says on page 3270 line 3: "In Kijevo, also in
11 the Cetina valley, there was an anti-aircraft artillery piece, an
12 anti-aircraft gun. It was either 57- or 76-millimetres in calibre. I
13 cannot remember exactly."
14 Did you know about that particular item?
15 A. I don't remember, sir.
16 Q. Did you learn or do you recall any military positions that the
17 ARSK had in the Cetina valley at all?
18 A. When I went to visit the Kenyan observation post, there was some
19 offensive position in the Dinara mountain that the ARSK occupied, but I
20 don't remember seeing any major equipment, heavy equipment, in that
21 particular area.
22 Q. And that would come from the -- the one occasion that you were
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Now, in your letter to General Gotovina - by the way, I mean just
1 to speed through this - there was, in fact, a secession of shelling to
2 allow the harvest to continue; isn't that right?
3 A. After I had written the second letter, yeah, there was a period
4 of time, I think a couple of weeks, where there was no shelling that took
5 place, to allow the people to gather the -- what was on the ground.
6 Q. Right. And let me just turn your attention to P334, and I'm
7 talking about the last paragraph. This is a letter to General Gotovina,
8 9 July 1995
9 You note in the last paragraph: "I remain determined to reach a
10 negotiated settlement to the hostilities in the Dinara Mountains
11 including the withdrawal of Serb heavy weapons to storage sites."
12 Did you do that, General?
13 A. Did I do what?
14 Q. Did you get a withdrawal of Serb heavy weapons to storage sites?
15 A. No. Like I said there, that was my intention; and, again, you
16 know, when I went to visit, I didn't see any. That doesn't mean they
17 were not somewhere else, you know.
18 Q. And staying on that score, if you have a piece of artillery that
19 is mobile, it can be taken from one location to another; right?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. So, just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean they didn't have
22 it in the area?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Let us go back --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, earlier, at least that's how it appears
1 on the transcript, is that the testimony by Mr. Tchernetsky would have
2 been: "It was an anti-aircraft artillery police and an anti-aircraft
3 gun." That, I don't know how you pronounced it, but it's not the word
4 "and," but it was --
5 MR. KEHOE: I meant "an," A-N, Judge. Not two weapons, I meant
6 one --
7 JUDGE ORIE: That appears from the transcript, just to be
8 correct, yes.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. KEHOE: Let's us go back to 1D28-0151, which is the red line.
11 Q. Now, General, if we could look at the page.
12 MR. KEHOE: And I think if we can go to two pages up, please.
13 I'm sorry, just one page back, please. We're looking at the bottom
15 Q. Again, we're talking about the period of time, General, when you
16 are going down to see the ARSK authorities.
17 We start with the area that says: "During the whole day,
18 shelling into populated areas had created panic among the RSK leadership
19 and population. The RSK Supreme Defence Counsel took a decision to
20 evacuate the towns and villages sometime during the 4 August 1995. The
21 hierarchy asked for a meeting at 1800 in Knin. And that evening, the
22 4 August, General Mrksic was not there, but I met his Chief of Staff and
23 five RSK ministers. They appeared totally confused and in a panic."
24 Now let us turn back to your presentation which is P401. You
25 note, starting in that paragraph, "During the night ..."
1 It says: "The whole day -- they included the whole day.
2 Shelling into populated areas had created panic among the RSK
3 leadership." Then you note: "Given the relatively stable situation, and
4 with the penetration that could be blocked or at least tried to be
5 contained, one must ask why the RSK decided to order the civilian
6 population to flee, unless it was an already foregone conclusion" --
7 excuse me, "decision."
8 Now, you described -- you, initially, got to the RSK headquarters
9 approximately 11.30, didn't you?
10 A. On the 4th, yes, sir.
11 Q. And when you got there, you were of the belief that the situation
12 was, in fact, stable; isn't that right?
13 A. As far as the information I was receiving from my unit, yes, sir.
14 Q. And "stable," tell us what you mean by "stable"?
15 A. That there was no inroad specifically, you know, across the whole
16 front. There was some -- I don't know if that time -- I think the
17 10 company -- I may not have known, because as soon as the 10 company
18 from the Dinara moved, the Kenyan command post lost contact with that
19 company of Kenyans that was in that area. And coming through the
20 Velebit, I'm not sure if I had that information when I met that ARSK
21 colonel in the morning there.
22 Q. And by "stable," you mean that the ARSK forces weren't panicking
23 and fleeing; isn't that right?
24 A. "Stable" meant, you know, that the front was holding.
25 Q. Now continuing on with this -- by the way, this situation, as
1 you described the situation on the morning of the 4th, when you go to the
2 ARSK headquarters and you describe the entire matter as a stable
3 situation, that was not included in your statement to the Prosecutor;
5 A. No, sir, because I had forgotten about that particular meeting,
6 and I only realised that there had been a meeting when I saw the sitrep.
7 Q. Well, sir, in fact -- sir, in fact, prior to the drafting of your
8 1996 statement, you provided the Office of the Prosecutor with the
9 presentation that we have in 401; right?
10 A. I said earlier, I don't remember if it was at that time that they
11 were provided. They would have to tell you that. I don't remember.
12 Q. Let us move, continue on with this, staying with your
13 presentation at, "I understand now ..."
14 And we're on page 23, last paragraph. "I understand now that the
15 RSK Supreme Defence Council took the decision at about noon on 4 August
16 to abandon the Krajina."
17 Now, the RSK, sir, made that decision at a time when you assessed
18 the military situation to be stable, didn't you?
19 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour. I've been trying to follow
20 this, and if there is a reference to the previous paragraph --
21 MR. KEHOE: I'll give you the page; it's page 23.
22 MR. TIEGER: I do see that but the continual references to the
23 General's assessment of the stability of the situation in his
24 presentation has been linked to the morning meeting and doesn't seem to
25 say that there at all.
1 MR. KEHOE: Well, I think we can certainly clarify that.
2 Q. General, at the time that you got to the RSK headquarters on the
3 morning of the 4th of August, did you consider the military situation to
4 be stable?
5 A. Based on the information that I had at that time, yes.
6 Q. And you got there at approximately 11.00, 11.30?
7 A. That is what is in the situation report, yes, sir.
8 Q. You subsequently learned that the RSK made a decision on noon of
9 the 4th of August to, as you say, abandon the Krajina.
10 A. That information came from the refugee that came into my camp,
11 and I learned about that a couple of weeks after the 4th. That was the
12 timing, you know, that they were talking about, but I never verified that
13 particular timing.
14 Q. Continuing on about the subsequent meeting, you note in your
15 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor -- and I'm talking about the
16 paragraph beginning "during ," and you're talking about the meeting at
17 1800 hours: "General Mrksic was not there, but I met his COS and five
18 ministers. They appeared totally confused and in panic."
19 Now, again, we have the word "panic." And, again, if we turn our
20 attention back to your presentation, while you use the words "totally
21 confused and mostly incoherent," the word "panic" is not used.
22 My question is: Is the word "panic" a word that you used, sir,
23 or was it a word that Mr. Robertsson included?
24 A. No, it must have been me, but when -- from my understanding of
25 English, confusion and incoherent, you know, it's panic from my point of
1 view. So if I had not used the same word, I mean, if you ask me that
2 question today and another question tomorrow on the same subject, I may
3 use different word, but to me it meant about the same.
4 Q. Well, let us continue on, on that paragraph, and you continue on
5 and you say -- you see "Their aim"?
6 You say: "Their aim of the meeting was to request that the UN
7 supply 450 trucks and 70.000 litres of fuel to evacuate 30.000 civilians
8 from Knin and the surrounding areas that night. They could not explain
9 how this evacuation would be done, where these people were to be
10 evacuated to, or what resources were available. There was simply no
12 MR. KEHOE: I don't know if you want me to break here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If this would be a suitable moment for you, we would
14 have a break now. If you would take one or more two minutes, then --
15 MR. KEHOE: Judge, it will take a little bit more than that.
16 This is a suitable point.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps otherwise it would become too late.
18 We'll take a break and resume at ten minutes to 1.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
23 Q. At the outset, General, my apologies if I'm moving quickly
24 through this. This is a lot of material, and I know these discrepancies
25 are not your fault. It's just I have to get through a certain amount of
1 material in a certain amount of time. So if it moves quickly, my
2 apologies, sir.
3 A. You're not moving quickly enough for me.
4 Q. I think the sentiments that you have in that would be expressed
5 by Judge Orie in a different form.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. KEHOE: General, I just want to show you before we move into
8 the next area of the statement a video clip, and it is P398. This is by
10 [Videotape played]
11 "It is hard to understand why the ARSK did not put up a better
12 battle, especially ..."
13 MR. KEHOE: Start from the beginning.
14 [Videotape played]
15 "It is hard to understand why the ARSK did not put up a better
16 battle, especially the ground favours the defender, and we know, you
17 know, that the Croats were able to offend them in the south-eastern part
18 of this sector. But still there was a lot of other places where they
19 could have made a stand, and it was not made. Also, one of the things
20 that surprised me from the military point of view is that there was no
21 depth in their defence, no second line or third line. And this is a bit
22 surprising when we look at it from the military point of view. Another
23 aspect that was critical, I think, in their -- why it went so fast is
24 that they decide very early, on the 4th in the afternoon, to evacuate the
25 civilians from Knin and all the surrounding town. And as soon as that
1 was known, everybody start to flee away, including the military."
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Yes, General, that evacuation order in around noon that we talked
4 about was critical to the giving up or the defeat of the Krajina, wasn't
6 A. It sure was, yes, sir.
7 Q. Now, you noted in your statement to the Prosecutor, that there
8 was no plan. I note, just as we move through this, those words are not
9 in your presentation in P401, and I would like to show you a video. This
10 is 1D15-0065.
11 As this is cueing up, I point to the point that part of your
12 statement where you said that: "These people didn't know where they were
13 going to be evacuated to or what resources were available. There was
14 simply no plan."
15 If we could play this, and this is General Kosta Novakovic of the
17 [Videotape played]
18 [Inaudible audio]
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. Let me -- while cueing this other item up, on the issue of no
21 plan and not knowing where they're going, can I show you D182.
22 MR. KEHOE: If we can bring up D182 while we're waiting.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Kehoe, you were talking
24 about "the evacuation order in around noon that you talked about." May I
25 take it that you were referring to what was called "the decision on noon
1 to abandon the Krajina"?
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's not linguistically not exactly the same.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE:
6 Q. General, this is a memo that went to Sector South headquarters,
7 and I will tell you for the sake of clarity that the parties have agreed
8 that the date in this document is incorrect, and it is 4 August 1995
9 to the extent that it says "8 July," the parties have agreed that it is,
10 in fact, "4 August."
11 In the middle part of this document, it talks about a meeting on
12 1800 to 900 [sic].
13 And the second paragraph it notes that: "The RSK authorities
14 have requested UN assistance in organising and providing transport for
15 such evacuation. RSK initial calculation shows that UN will node to
16 provide for these refugees transportation around 70 litres -- excuse me,
17 70.000 litres of fuel, 450 trucks. RSK proposed one main route: From
18 Knin to Padjene, Otric, Srb, Martin Brod, Bosanski Petrovac, Banja Luka
19 Population from Benkovac, Obrovac, Gracac will not pass Knin, but
20 directly through Padjene without directly passing Knin."
21 "The sector commander told RSK that he will request Zagreb
22 authorities, in general, he will recommend this UN support."
23 Do you recall this, General, that there was a plan to follow a
24 particular route as set forth in this document?
25 A. I don't remember that, sir. My impression of that meeting was
1 they had no plan at all, and my recollection was for them to provide me a
2 plan before I could be in a position to say what type of help to be
3 provided. I remember that I mentioned that that help because I had
4 reduced capability. I would have been obliged to go back to my
5 headquarters. Once I had known their plans, but there was no plan as far
6 as I was concerned.
7 MR. KEHOE: Let me show you another video. This is for Drago
8 Kovacevic, 1D17-0383, who was a key RSK official at the time.
9 [Videotape played]
10 [Inaudible audio]
11 JUDGE ORIE: This sound is not very pleasant. We see an English
12 translation, apparently, of the words spoken by the person we see on the
13 screen. We can proceed in two ways. Either the parties agree that this
14 is a, and perhaps later can verify, that this is an accurate translation
15 of the words spoken. Then we could put our volume very, very low, and
16 then rather read. Otherwise, you have to prepare a better audio for
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I may. I don't know why this isn't
20 working this way. It worked fine before. But the booths have been
21 provided a translation of this -- a transcript, excuse me, of this. So I
22 will take Your Honour's guidance and the Prosecutor's position.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: Well, I'm sure either one of the expedients
25 suggested, it seems to me, can work. I don't know if the transcript is
1 of the words spoken by the person on the video himself or is a
2 transcription of what appears in the subtitles. If it's the latter, then
3 we might as well just go forward without the sound and look at what's on
4 the screen. If it's the former, that does sound like it's a potentially
5 more accurate way to proceed, and then we can double-check it as the
6 Court suggested later.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps both.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have transcripts in the original language and
10 the translation?
11 MR. KEHOE: If we might check one moment.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Not for this particular video clip, the booths
13 do not have the transcript.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No transcript at all.
15 THE INTERPRETER: We do have some but not for this particular
16 video clip.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The booth informs me that they have no transcript
18 for this particular video.
19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, it's in B/C/S. We have a
20 transcript in English in e-court, but there is no transcript in B/C/S
21 because the people are speaking in B/C/S.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But with this audio quality, no one can verify
23 the words spoken in B/C/S. So, therefore, under those circumstances,
24 either the parties agree sooner or later on on what is on the original
25 perhaps by using other equipment to verify and then to agree on that.
1 And if, Mr. Tieger, if you would engage in such an exercise, then we
2 perhaps could at this moment just look at the video and that you tender
3 English transcript, and the parties could agree on whether the original
4 and the English transcript reflects the words spoken in B/C/S.
5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then what we do at this moment: We look at the
7 video, we put our volumes low, and the English transcript will then be
8 tendered together with the video, and the parties will reach an agreement
9 on the original words spoken.
10 If that is agreeable, then let's move on this way.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. KEHOE: General, I think we're finished.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we first assign a number to the video
14 and then to the English transcript.
15 Mr. Registrar.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D326.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: As discussed, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means that verification of the original
21 should still take place.
22 Then D326 is admitted into evidence with the proviso that within
23 seven days, the Prosecution has an opportunity to revisit the issue of
24 the original words spoken.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. General, I know it's been some time, but did you recognise the
3 bald gentleman that has a hair line like mine, Mr. Kovacevic, the mayor
4 of Knin?
5 A. No, sir. I never met him.
6 Q. And the second individual, Colonel Kosta Novakovic, with glass,
7 had you met him?
8 A. His face seems familiar, but I'm not sure if I met him or not.
9 Q. I know it's been a long time, General. And the last individual,
10 the older man with the grey hair without the glasses, General Sekulic,
11 did you recognise him?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Let me show you another document sir, which is 1D25-0098.
14 General, this is a cable sent by Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan, through
15 Mr. Stoltenberg, dated 4 August 1995
16 interested in is the second page, paragraph 4.
17 MR. KEHOE: If we can just blow up paragraph 4.
18 Q. "We have been advised by the civil affairs office in Sector South
19 that the Knin leadership have requested UNHCR and UNPF assistance in
20 evacuating 32.000 civilians from Benkovac, Obrovac, Gracac, and Knin to
21 Petrovac and Banja Luka in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
22 Now, General, this was on the 4th of August that Mr. Akashi is
23 sending this from Zagreb
24 to how Mr. Akashi got the details of this plan that Sector South was
25 unaware of or that you were unaware of?
1 A. There's no timing on that, is it?
2 Q. The only timing we have, sir, is on page 1.
3 A. But there's only a date.
4 Q. There's an incoming time cable, sir.
5 A. At what time?
6 Q. If we can go to the front page and if we can circle the right
7 corner, it notes at 2002.
8 A. That makes sense, sir, because I had that meeting at
9 approximately 1800 hours. Mr. Al-Alfi was with me, and it reflects what
10 I told you earlier, that since they had no plan, I did not commit myself,
11 and I would say, "Give me your plan." I would have to go back to my
12 headquarter, you know, with that plan. The only thing I offered at that
13 time was some fuel for certain people, and it was a limited amount, you
14 know, that would pass beside my headquarter.
15 Q. Now, General --
16 JUDGE ORIE: When we are talking about times and when we are
17 talking about apparently internationally-sent documents, then it might be
18 interesting to know what kind of time we are talking about.
19 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge. The top one, it looks like UNPROFOR
20 at the top stamp of 1947.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. KEHOE: I do believe, Judge, based on and having dealt with
23 these documents, that it goes out on the current time that you're in.
24 So, as the General noted, that would be consistent with his meeting
25 at 1800.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The time you're in depends on who you are.
2 MR. KEHOE: It's true.
3 JUDGE ORIE: When you are a receiver, when you are a sender. So
4 I take it that you do not put any time you're not in on a document, but,
5 of course, it depends on where you are, perhaps, and what your role in
6 the whole thing is.
7 But let's move on and keep this in the back of our minds.
8 MR. KEHOE:
9 Q. I think, just to clarify this, any way we look at this cable,
10 General, it's after your meeting with the RSK authorities?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Now, if we stay on that paragraph 4, it notes that: "There is a
13 wide range of political" -- excuse me, "... policy, political, military,
14 and logistical implications that must be first examined with UNHCR before
15 we can contemplate such a commitment. Accordingly, Sector South has been
16 advised by UNCRO to make no commitment to Knin authorities, other than
17 that the matter will be examined tomorrow."
18 Now, General, with regard to this particular item, making no
19 commitment to the Knin authorities, I mean you made no commitment to
20 evacuate anyone, but you did make a decision, nonetheless, to give them
22 A. Only for those civilian that would pass beside my headquarters; I
23 stress "civilian."
24 Q. Now, also, did you receive a request from Colonel Kosta Novakovic
25 to take civilians into the camp on the night of the 4th?
1 A. I don't know. There is a colonel that came at my gate, if I
2 remember well, around 2300 hours, and that he wanted to -- for me to take
3 into my camp the wounded and the sick from the hospital and I told him
4 no. But I don't remember if it was Novakovic; it was a colonel that I
5 had met previously.
6 Q. If I may, Colonel Kosta Novakovic told the Office of the
7 Prosecutor of the Tribunal, in his statement in 2001 at page 10, where he
8 actually says: "Our delegation requested the UN to open the gates of the
9 compound to permit the civilians to enter. This was agreed to and the
10 gates were opened."
11 Is that accurate?
12 A. The gates for the refugees from open, yes, sir. But I think it
13 must have been after I came back from that meeting in Knin.
14 Q. But was it at the request of the ARSK?
15 A. I don't remember. I'm trying to remember if it was at the demand
16 of the -- the request of the ARSK, or if it was Colonel Leslie, you know,
17 that came to me and said, "There's a certain number of people outside the
18 gate and they want to come in. So what is your decision?" And after I
19 thought a while after that, a little while, I said, "Okay. Let them in,
20 and we will accommodate them."
21 Q. Now, General, along the idea of the plan, and going back to your
22 presentation, you note in your presentation -- and I turn our attention
23 to the top of page 2545 -- excuse me, page 25 of 45.
24 Now, the issue of how people got that information is -- the
25 people got the information that there was an evacuation order is answered
1 by you at that passage at the top of the page, isn't it?
2 A. That's what I got from the people that were in the camp, yes,
4 Q. And you note that: "From talking to locals who became refugees
5 in my headquarters, the stories from whose later hear heard from refugees
6 now in Serbia
7 defence organisation as part of the heritage of the socialist police
8 state. There was an existing and well developed civil defence
9 organisation. Everybody," excuse me, "everyone had a block warden, a
10 designated survival area, evacuation routes ..."
11 Now, sir, that portion or that -- that was your understanding as
12 to the communication network that was existing, that was informed of this
13 evacuation order, so they could evacuate pursuant to the decision of the
14 RSK; is that right?
15 A. Yeah. That's the information, as I said, that was provided to me
16 by the refugee in my camp.
17 Q. Now, that particular item about how this information was laid out
18 to the civilian population indicated to you in relatively organised
19 communication network that went back to the socialist era; isn't that
21 A. Yeah, they had some way of communicating, yes, sir.
22 Q. That communication item - and I don't blame you for this not
23 being in here, General - but it hasn't been included in your witness
24 statement of 1996, has it?
25 A. I don't think so. No, sir.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe --
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- could I seek one clarification. In the
4 presentation, you say that: "From talking to the locals who became
5 refugees in my headquarters and the stories from those who later heard
6 from refugees ..."
7 One of your answers was put on the record a minute ago and reads:
8 "Yeah. That's the information, as I said, that was provided to me by the
9 refugee in my camp." That suggests one person; whereas, your
10 presentation suggests more persons.
11 THE WITNESS: No, it was more than one, sir.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. KEHOE:
15 Q. Now, General, changing subjects for one moment and just
16 discussing, if we could, the 4th, and if we can move back in our
17 time-frame just a bit. You had a meeting with the RSK, you told us,
18 before noon
19 that right?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Had there been contacts between UNCRO and the RSK or the ARSK
22 prior to that day -- prior to that time that day? The first meeting, I'm
23 talking about.
24 A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
25 Q. Let me ask -- just go through a couple of items on this, and
1 again, talking about the statement of Mr. Kosta Novakovic, Colonel Kosta
2 Novakovic of the ARSK.
3 In his statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on April 5,
4 2001, he noted on page 9: "On 4 August 1995, at 0400, I was awoken by
5 our liaison officer who said it would be desirable for me to come to our
6 headquarters because the situation was serious. The liaison officer then
7 told me that he had information from a responsible official from UN
8 Sector South headquarters that the Croatian attack will commence
9 at 0500."
10 Let me just touch on one other item, and this is from
11 Mr. Sekulic's book.
12 MR. KEHOE: It should be -- it should be number 20 on our table.
13 It should be 1D28-1009 to 10.
14 Q. This is from ARSK General Sekulic's book that he wrote.
15 MR. KEHOE: Just for clarity, 1D28-0109. The next page, I think.
16 It will be the following page. No, that's not it. It should be at
17 1D28-0013 -- 0113, my apologies. It is from the same book, however.
18 Q. I'm starting on page 173, General, at "Information that the ..."
19 This is General Sekulic talking about the beginning of Operation
20 Storm. "Information that the aggression would commence on 04 August at
21 5.00 a.m.
22 afternoon on 03 August, information was also provided by the General
23 Staff of the Yugoslav Army. It was then confirmed by the General Staff
24 of the army of the Republika Srpska. The information about the time of
25 the beginning of the operation had come in from various UNPROFOR (UNCRO)
1 sources as well. The officers from the international peace forces
2 appeared to have been competing with one another to provide information
3 about the time of the beginning of the aggression to organs of the Serb
4 army of the Krajina.
5 "After midnight
6 5.00 a.m.
7 received several calls from the UNPROFOR officers who were at the
8 southern barracks in Knin. They were informing us about the beginning of
9 the aggression in the RSK. Similar information had been coming in
10 through state security channels and other organs of the RSK."
11 I have one last item before I begin to ask you questions on these
12 items and that would come from a video 1D15-0065.
13 [Videotape played]
14 [Inaudible audio]
15 MR. KEHOE: It appears we have the is same difficulty, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we then resolve it in a similar way as well
18 or do you need the sound here?
19 MR. KEHOE: I think we can resolve it in the same fashion, Judge.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's decided that we'll do that.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. General, this is, again, Colonel Kosta Novakovic and General
24 Sekulic who have said, both in writing and on these videos, that they
25 were being provided information from UN Sector South. Do you know
1 anything about that, sir?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Had anybody informed you that they were, in fact, informing you
4 them of that?
5 A. No, because I would have put a stop to that, that's for sure.
6 Q. Now, there was a point in time, General -- and, certainly, before
7 I move into the next question, certainly, if they had been provided that
8 information prior to the attack, that would have been a violation of the
9 UN mandate, would it not?
10 A. It sure would.
11 Q. Now, during the course of the day, you note in your 1996
12 statement at paragraph 4, page 5, fourth paragraph, that: "We had
13 provided them," meaning the RSK. For the purpose of coordinating a
14 humanitarian assistance, you provided them a radio; is that right?
15 A. That was at my meeting at 1800 hours, if I recall, on the 4th of
17 Q. So, when we talk about --
18 MR. KEHOE: If I can turn our attention to P343.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Kehoe, before we do so, I take it that
20 you wanted to tender the --
21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- previous?
23 Mr. Registrar, could you please assign a number to the last video
24 and the transcript, the English transcript attached to it.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D327.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D327 is admitted into evidence under the proviso
2 that the Prosecution can verify the original language spoken and may come
3 back with this matter to the Chamber within seven days.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, we'd also like to offer the book
6 excerpt --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Yeah. I also noted that, as I imagine the Court
9 did, that these appear to be two different segments from what looks like
10 an ongoing discussion or interview or tape of the same people. So to the
11 extent we may not have the entirety of the interview, we would be asking
12 for that, and I had a previous discussion with Mr. Misetic about that. I
13 understand the logistical difficulties of providing it at this moment in
14 light of all the other tasks the Defence have, but I don't think there's
15 any objection to making arrangements for that ultimate purpose.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
17 MR. MISETIC: I had a somewhat different understanding of our
18 conversation, Your Honour. So, perhaps, it's better if after the session
19 we have a another conversation. My understanding is that we were talking
20 about audio from the clip itself and not providing now raw material
21 outside of what's being presented. But we'll talk about that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: There may be two different things; but at the same
23 time, it seems fair to me that if you make a selection of interviews
24 which were broadcasted, that in order to verify the context in which the
25 used portions are used, that you provide the broadcast in it's entirety,
1 disclose it to the Prosecution.
2 MR. MISETIC: In this specific instance, that shouldn't be a
3 problem. It's a movie that's been widely shown in the last year. There
4 is an issue with respect to other videos, and I think it's best if
5 Mr. Tieger and I discuss it in private.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll cross that bridge if it comes to the other
8 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And would it be possible for the Prosecution to
10 review that, for example, later today?
11 MR. MISETIC: It depends on the technology. It's a two-hour
12 movie, so we'll try it burn it on a CD.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If it is on DVD, then it's my experience --
14 MR. MISETIC: It's not on a DVD.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It's not on a DVD.
16 MR. MISETIC: We have a server, Your Honour, that you have to now
17 copy it for them, distribute it to them, et cetera, and I don't know how
18 long it will take to copy. It is just as a technical matter --
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... if it's electronic and
20 not video, then usually copying two hours should be easy.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. General, you say you gave them the radio at the meeting at 1800?
24 A. I said that's what I remembered, yes, sir, because there was no
25 longer phone communication which were broken.
1 Q. Okay. So they couldn't call you on the telephone anymore?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And what about earlier in the day, did you talk to them on the
4 telephone earlier in the day?
5 A. I didn't speak to them on the phone myself, no.
6 Q. Well, when you got there at noon time, was there telephone
7 communication capability?
8 A. I don't remember that.
9 MR. KEHOE: Why don't we turn our attention to P343, page 5, and
10 this is a sitrep for UN Sector South from the 4th of August, 2300
11 Go to page 5 of this document, and if we can continue up there.
12 I'm sorry. That's the commander's assessment. Three more pages up to
13 where it says "warring party movement."
14 Mr. Monkhouse, you see where it says "5" at the top of the page
15 there. This one says "2."
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, if I look at this document in e-court,
17 the top of the first page, it says "page 1 of 11." Then moving to the
18 second page, the second page is numbered 3 on the top. The third page is
19 numbered 5 at the top.
20 Could it be that at least the document also only the odd pages
21 have been uploaded.
22 MR. KEHOE: I think it's distinctly possible. I think it's a
23 P document, and we'll check with the Prosecution.
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I've checked. They were put in, in
25 the wrong numerical order, so the pages are wrong. That's the only
1 reason. They're in there, however. All of the pages are in there;
2 they're just wrong in terms of numerical order.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So that's all rather easy.
4 MR. KEHOE: So, Judge, we're on the page that I wanted to talk
5 about anyway.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the parties were taught always
7 to refer to e-court numbers, and then whatever numbering appears on the
8 documents themselves is then subordinate to that.
9 Have we found --
10 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- what we need?
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. General, this is a document. It's a sitrep from the 4th at 2300,
14 talking about your meeting at 1130. And right above the miscellaneous,
15 it notes that: "It was agreed that headquarter Sector South would remain
16 in contact with the headquarters of the ARSK." Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Now, why, General, why were you remaining in contact with ARSK
20 A. Because they had requested some medical support and some stuff,
21 and my reply to him according to that is that, "First, you got to stop
22 shooting at you us, and then we'll be in a better mood for discussion."
23 Q. General, was this being done by radio at this time? If it wasn't
24 done by radio, how was this being done?
25 A. If I remember well, I think there is an ARSK officer came to my
1 headquarter requesting that I go and see that Colonel. And after that it
2 would have been the same time -- the same thing. When they came, that
3 1800 hour meeting, they came to my headquarter asking me, you know, if I
4 would attend that particular meeting.
5 Q. So when you would remain in contact with the HQ of the ARSK, you
6 were doing it through people going through shelling, or were you doing it
7 through some electronic means?
8 A. No, they were coming to us; and when they request that meeting, I
9 went to that meeting, okay? And the same thing for that meeting at 1800
10 hours, they send somebody requesting that I attend that meeting, then I
11 went. But they were -- as far as communication, there were also military
12 observers, if I remember well, that had some liaison with ARSK, and I did
13 not control those people.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock.
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, if we can just break at this point.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Mr. Forand, we will adjourn for the day. I'd like to instruct
18 you again that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony
19 whether given already or whether still to be given.
20 And we adjourn and resume tomorrow.
21 Yes, Mr. Forand.
22 THE WITNESS: Do we have an idea when it will be finished, Your
23 Honour, because I would like to be back in Canada for the 10th of June,
24 because I have a board of administration meeting, and I don't know --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Today is the 5th, and we're all aiming at concluding
1 your testimony this Friday.
2 THE WITNESS: Tomorrow.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Tomorrow, that would be the 6th of June. And since
4 you do not take the boat, I take it, you might be back the 10th of June.
5 Although, I was informed that you would prefer to be able to leave The
6 Hague at -- was it 12.00 or 1.00?
7 THE WITNESS: My plane, sir, leaves at 1500. So I think I would
8 need to leave around 12.30 to be in time to catch it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Whether we make that, I don't know whether you can
10 make any -- earlier you showed a great flexibility; and in view of the
11 frequency of planes leaving for Canada
12 prepare for a change of departure.
13 If I would have been informed about it earlier, I would perhaps
14 have asked the parties, but now they have divided their time and it would
15 take more than one hour from our time and usually we are rather tight.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
17 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, all the parties are now aware, if
18 this would result in a firm message, that the parties can agree to
19 accommodate Mr. Forand to leave at 12.30 this Friday.
20 Then, of course, we would immediately inform you, Mr. Forand, and
21 the parties are encouraged to see whether they can accommodate. But, at
22 this moment, I'm not in a position to instruct them to do that.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn until the 6th of June, 9.00 in the
25 morning Courtroom I.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th of June, 2008,
3 at 9.00 a.m.