Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4647

 1                           Tuesday, 10 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Before we continue, Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Waespi, were you able to find

12     a solution for P425 marked for identification?

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, we are and I will tell you the

14     confusion came from it being Gracac as opposed to -- the town and the

15     village, the village is in the Split military district, the town is not

16     and there was some confusion there; but I do believe that we have

17     mutually resolved it and the objections on that score, well we have no

18     objections at this point.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I take it that where the other parties

20     joined the objection, they also now join in the withdrawal.  Then P425 is

21     admitted into evidence.  I hardly dare to say about the village and the

22     town but that's clear.  We know where the village is we know where the

23     town is.

24             Let's proceed but not, Mr. Marti, after I have reminded you that

25     you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

Page 4648

 1     beginning of your testimony, that is that you will speak the truth, the

 2     whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 3             Mr. Kehoe I think at the end of this session, I'll come back to

 4     you about timing, et cetera, but please first continue your

 5     cross-examination.

 6                           WITNESS:  PETER MARTI [Resumed]

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:  Continued

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Marti and yesterday we were talking about

10     Golubic.

11             Your Honour, if I could just briefly turn it to private session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn it to private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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Page 4649

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Marti, were you aware that there was a weapons depot for the

10     ARSK in Golubic?

11        A.   No, I was not clearly aware.  I just heard the rumours from other

12     UNMO that there must be something but me, myself, I didn't see anything

13     and I mean for me it looks quite funny, I mean you have a church and then

14     you cover the church with camouflage, but I mean it's still a church so

15     what should be the meaning of cover a church with camouflage.  So for me,

16     I didn't actually understand it and I haven't seen anything in Golubic

17     former to Operation Storm.

18        Q.   In addition to the church, were you aware of a separate weapons

19     depot for the ARSK in Golubic?

20        A.   No, I didn't see it by my eyes there before Operation Oluja.

21        Q.   Did you hear about it from other UNMOs that there was an

22     ammunitions depot for the ARSK in Golubic?

23        A.   There was some discussions.  There might be or they suppose that

24     there is something because before Operation Oluja we didn't have access

25     to all the areas in our zone of where we had to report.

Page 4650

 1        Q.   So let's talk about Golubic, are you saying that the ARSK did not

 2     let you examine military facilities in Golubic?

 3        A.   It was not only Golubic, it was also, for example, Plavno valley

 4     we didn't have access before Operation Oluja to Plavno valley as well as

 5     directly to Golubic, for example, to see what is in this church which is

 6     covered in camouflage.

 7        Q.   That was because the ARSK would not let you; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Let me show you an excerpt of a document if I may so we can get

10     these numbers correct, we are going to distribute paper copies of this,

11     Judge, and this is a report dated the 22nd of August, 1995 from

12     General Cervenko, the Chief of Staff of the HV.  We will get the whole

13     document translated but for the sake of this discussion, we're interested

14     in this one page which we have translated.

15             If we can put that on the ELMO.

16             Mr. Usher, I'm interested in the second paragraph talking about

17     "Up to now ..."

18             This report notes to follows, "Up to now, it is known that

19     numerous depots contain large amounts of ammunition and other weapons.

20     And the discussion is weapons seized after Operation Storm.

21              "For example, in the Stara Straza depot, there were -- almost 15

22     wagons he is of ammunition which we do not completely dispose of."  Do

23     you know where Stara Straza is, Mr. Marti?

24        A.   No, I should have looked at my map maybe then I would find it.

25        Q.   Okay.  We will go up on that map just briefly before we go to

Page 4651

 1     this matter on the ELMO, which is D384.  This is one of the series of

 2     maps that Mr. Misetic used yesterday.  And if we can have the English

 3     translation there as opposed to the B/C/S translation.  You see Knin is

 4     down on the lower right-hand corner do you see that, Mr. Marti, and you

 5     see that the circle that the Stara Straza barracks are, are you familiar

 6     with that location?  The red circle on the right-hand side of the page?

 7        A.   Yes, I can see it on the map.

 8        Q.   Are you familiar with the ARSK barracks in the Stara Straza area?

 9        A.   No, I'm not.

10        Q.   So I take it based on your answer, you didn't know that they had

11     weapons depot?

12        A.   I was not there.

13        Q.   Even --

14        A.   That's basically what I have to say because as I mentioned

15     already, there were some rumours but me, myself, I was not there to have

16     a look at it.

17        Q.   Well, in the discussions with other UNMOs, did you learn that

18     there was a weapons depot in Stara Straza?

19        A.   I don't remember this special name Stara Straza.

20        Q.   If we can go back to the item on the ELMO.  Going down to the

21     next sentence, "In Golubic depot," and I'm talking about the paragraph up

22     to now:

23             "In the Golubic depot in Knin, there is approximately 7.000 tons

24     of ammunition and weapons prepared for arming three brigades.  There are

25     various rockets amongst which are type Orcan, Plamen Oganj, large amounts

Page 4652

 1     of reserve parts, food, various military equipment and sanitary material.

 2     22 KUB rockets, large amounts of various anti-personnel and anti-tank

 3     mines and several tons of explosives were seized.  The amounts of

 4     ammunition and other assets are several times greater than those used

 5     during the operation."

 6             Now, you noted for us in your witness statement P415 at page 2 --

 7     excuse me, P416 page 2 that the ARSK was poorly equipped.  Were you aware

 8     that they had this much equipment in the Golubic amo dump?

 9        A.   No, I was not aware but I said poorly equipped because when I

10     remember, for example, a checkpoint, I mean that was the point where we

11     saw the RSK soldiers every day.  I mean those checkpoints were very

12     poorly, there was -- for example, the checkpoint between Knin and Drnis,

13     there was a simple -- a camping coach and an old camping coach manned

14     with one man.  Even he didn't have -- also on the other checkpoint, they

15     didn't have radio connection with the commanding in Knin, for example, or

16     in Vrlika and for me, this didn't give the impression that they are well

17     equipped, they are well-organised.  Even many times I thought but where

18     are the preparations to protect the whole area?  I mean when you just

19     pass through the zone of separation, first you pass the Serb checkpoint,

20     then the UN checkpoint then on the other side, the Croatian checkpoint

21     and you can see a very different, for example, how on the Croatian side,

22     their checkpoints were equipped.  So that gave me the impression that it

23     must be so well-organised and also sometimes when we were locked on the

24     checkpoint, because they wanted to see a permission or something like

25     that, they couldn't clarify by radio what is the problem.  So we had to

Page 4653

 1     go back to Knin, get the permission, and come back.  So that was my

 2     impression.

 3        Q.   Well, just going back to this particular ammunition depot.  As a

 4     UN Military Observer, is there some reason why you didn't know about this

 5     ammunition depot in Golubic in your role as an UNMO?

 6        A.   When I came to this Sector South in early -- in middle of June,

 7     there were some procedures established where we were allowed to patrol

 8     and were not.  And for me, it was -- I mean I didn't have personal reason

 9     to say to my colleague, come on and let's go to try, for example, to

10     Golubic.  I mean it was just normal procedure to Golubic.  We are not

11     allowed to go, so we had our daily routes where we patrol.  For example,

12     we were allowed up to Strmica but only up to the checkpoint.  We were

13     allowed to Otric and we were allowed to go to Drnis.

14        Q.   If we can continue on on this page, if we can down just a couple

15     of paragraphs towards the bottom, it's okay, Mr. Usher, we can leave it:

16             "There was likewise a factory in Licki Osik which had numerous

17     items there.  55 tanks, five armoured transporters, 106 various guns,

18     howitzers, et cetera, as well as the last line, 6 MRL type Oganjs.

19     Again, sir, did you patrol the Licki Osik area and were you aware of this

20     depot?

21        A.   I cannot see where.

22        Q.   It's in the bottom paragraph on the page.

23        A.   No, I mean I don't know the area which you have mentioned.  Licki

24     Osik.

25        Q.   You are unaware of that area?

Page 4654

 1        A.   I don't know this name so, I should figure out on the map where

 2     it is.

 3        Q.   Let's turn our attention from Golubic to Strmica --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, at this time we'll offer into

 5     evidence this report on Operation Storm.  We will provide a full

 6     translation.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  I don't object though just an observation.  The

 9     General signed as in the English translation 4-star General which is a

10     funny way to sign a document and the B/C/S says General Zbora.  My B/C/S

11     isn't -- not minimally sufficient but I don't think that means 4 Zbora

12     anyway, the document says what it says; and we perhaps wait until we have

13     a translation of the whole document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections.  Therefore, Mr. Registrar ...

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D387.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D387 is admitted into evidence.  If, however, any of

17     the Defence teams will ask for the complete translation, perhaps they

18     could specifically ask about Zbora I've not no idea.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, frankly I have no idea either but we will ask

20     for a full translation.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   Now, with going to Strmica and your trip to Strmica, and just

24     bear with me, Mr. Marti, I'm going to cover some of the subjects that

25     were both in your report as well as what was discussed with Mr. Waespi.

Page 4655

 1             Now, you just noted for us there were certain areas that you

 2     could not go and you mentioned Strmica being one of them; is that right?

 3        A.   I mentioned that we were allowed to go on the street up to

 4     Strmica, but only up to the checkpoint.

 5        Q.   So when you said -- so when you talked about a restriction of

 6     movement, you could drive up to the checkpoint and no further?

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   Now, when you were going there on the 30th, you were going there

 9     at the request of the ARSK, weren't you?

10        A.   Yes.  The request came from ARSK through the HQ in Knin to our

11     team.

12        Q.   And you -- just going through your statement, you went and got an

13     ARSK liaison officer and drove up to Strmica?

14        A.   That was normally the procedure when we came close to the zone of

15     separation.

16        Q.   And this liaison officer was going to be your escort to show you

17     what they wanted you to see; is that right?

18        A.   Not precisely.  They brought us to the place where it has

19     happened that -- it was easier to found so -- they want to show us what

20     we should see as they did, they brought us at the spot where it has

21     happened.

22        Q.   So as you just said, they wanted to show you what you should see,

23     right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, when you went up there --

Page 4656

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, I'm not sure that's what the witness said.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  It's on line 13 going into line 14, he said they want

 4     to show us what we should see.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  I think he said on line 12, "They brought us to the

 6     place where it has happened."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  It's clear that the witness had some

 8     hesitation to follow the suggestion made by Mr. Kehoe to him which was

 9     suggestive to the aspect of just to see what they wanted to he show you

10     or at least bring you to the place where it happened.  It's all a rather

11     semantic issue.  It's clear that something had happened and that they

12     escorted you to that place not blindfolding you on the way there, not --

13     so therefore let's continue, Mr. Kehoe.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The matter is clear.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   Sir, when you got there -- when you were there is when the

18     shelling took place.  When you were there, sir, did you see any type

19     of -- well, let me withdraw that question.

20             On your way up there or at any time prior to that, did the ARSK

21     inform you or any of the other UNMOs that on July 30th, 1995, they were

22     preparing an offensive in an around the Strmica area against the HV, did

23     they tell you that?

24        A.   No, at least they didn't tell me.  Maybe some other UNMO, but I

25     think when that would have happened, I -- our team would have heard it

Page 4657

 1     also.

 2        Q.   Let me turn to D338.  If we could go to the top of the page of

 3     D338 which is the 30th.

 4             This is the diary of Captain Berikoff.  On the 30th of July is

 5     the day that you went there; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.    "Up at 0700.  Another day.  Not sure what will happen today.  It

 8     was quiet last night.  Everything happened today.  Got tasked to go and

 9     spend the night in Strmica with the Kenyans.  Very interesting, saw all

10     kinds of equipment on the way there.  BMPs, M-12 anti-tank gun, M-84

11     tanks and everything.  Shelling started about 1830 and continued for

12     about 1 1/2 hours.  Two M-84 tanks crossed border of BH,

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Then one came back a couple of hours later.  Many

14     ARSK around the area."  Excuse me, 11 and a half, that's an hour and a

15     half, I apologise.

16             Did you see any of this equipment in the Strmica area that was

17     observed by Captain Berikoff during this time?  On the same day?

18        A.   No, I didn't see it on 30th of July because even I -- as I told

19     yesterday, we didn't have -- we didn't go into Strmica because we were

20     shelled and then we turned back.

21        Q.   Well, sir, you is say that you were shelled.  There was shelling.

22     You don't know what the target of that shelling was, do you?

23        A.   No, but it was very close to me.

24        Q.   Well, I mean let me go back to your diary, sir.  And if you can

25     point to your diary of the 30th of July with the Court's permission.

Page 4658

 1             If I may.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  If counsel is looking for D224, that's the excerpt

 4     from the 30th of July.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  I have that.

 6        Q.   Reading this, sir, of the 30th of July, you noted, and I have to

 7     pull it from one of your statements, you noted that in this particular

 8     location, that there was a checkpoint nearby, was there not?  Was there a

 9     checkpoint nearby where the shelling came in?

10        A.   The checkpoint was -- I don't remember the distance exactly but

11     as I told yesterday, we were stopped before Strmica and the checkpoint

12     was somewhere inside Strmica.

13        Q.   Now, the checkpoint that was in Strmica, how far away from it was

14     where you were stopped?

15        A.   Maybe 300 to 500 metres.

16        Q.   Now, in that area as you go into Strmica, and if we can go to --

17     if we can go into private session, briefly, Your Honour?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn it to private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4659











11 Pages 4659-4660 redacted. Private session.















Page 4661

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   Mr. Marti, at any time during this particular ride back and

18     forth, and now I'm talking about the ride back with the liaison officer,

19     did the liaison officer ever tell you that the ARSK, on the 30th of July,

20     was engaging in troop movements up from Knin through Strmica to go to the

21     confrontation line outside of Grahovo?

22        A.   No, he didn't.

23        Q.   Now, this particular visit with the liaison officer that he was

24     going to show you, he was going to show you this shelling to attempt to

25     get pressure by the UN on the HV to stop shelling the Strmica-Grahovo

Page 4662

 1     road, wasn't he?

 2        A.   For us, it seems like there was the normal procedure, there was

 3     shelling then they have contact with the liaison officer, then we go on

 4     the field and make the crater analysis.  So for us it didn't look as this

 5     special event should have had special intention.

 6        Q.   Let's just stay with that for one moment.  The shelling was --

 7     you were called upon to do the shelling analysis by the ARSK, were you

 8     not?

 9        A.   Yes, that's where the ...

10        Q.   And correct me if I am wrong, but the reason why the ARSK wanted

11     the UN to examine the shelling was to put pressure on the HV to stop

12     shelling the Strmica area; is that correct?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, this question has been asked.  This

14     question has been answered almost literally using the same words where

15     the witness explained that it was, for him, it looked to be the normal

16     procedure and nothing special, and he didn't know anything about it,

17     that's what he told you.

18             If you look at page 15, line 16, 17, 18, and 19, then you see

19     that it's almost literally the same.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Judge.

22             If I can have just one moment, Your Honour.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. KEHOE:

25        Q.   Let us move to another issue, sir.  You talked a little bit

Page 4663

 1     yesterday about the shelling of the Cetina area; do you recall that, sir?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, the -- if we can go to a particular item, and if we can go

 4     to D219.  If we can just blow up the centre of -- yeah, to the left-hand

 5     side, yeah.

 6             Now, does that area look familiar to you, sir?

 7        A.   Not yet.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Knin being the -- over to the left-hand side, if you can

 9     just pull that up just a little bit.  If we can just move it up a little

10     bit, Mr. Usher, up.  Can you just scroll up.  Scroll down, I guess, is

11     the right word.  Down a little bit more.  Down more.  Just down to the --

12     more just down a bit more.  Stop right there, please.

13             Now, sir, this is a working map for the July 1995 area and the

14     area we have depicted here is the Cetina valley area, isn't it?

15        A.   I mean the map is very unclear but when you say it, it must be.

16        Q.   Well, let's turn to -- you understand -- you see the lake down

17     here.  Are you familiar with that area?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Are you familiar with Vrlika area near -- just nearby the lake?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Let's just go to a -- before we go to this, you are aware that

22     the town of Vrlika was the headquarters of the ARSK 1st Light Infantry

23     Brigade, were you not?

24        A.   I was aware that there was an HQ, but I don't remember, as you

25     said, which brigade or battalion or whatever.

Page 4664

 1        Q.   Did the -- in addition to a brigade headquarters, did the 7th

 2     Dalmatian Corps have a forward command post in Vrlika?

 3        A.   I have not seen a special command post.  What I saw in Vrlika was

 4     the office or the HQ of 1st Class Captain Popovic.

 5        Q.   You are familiar that Knin was the headquarters of the 7th

 6     Dalmatian Corps is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you know in Vrlika in addition to having a headquarters for

 9     the 1st Light Infantry Brigade that there was also a forward command post

10     for the 7th Dalmatian Corps?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

12             MR. WAESPI:  Just to make clear what the witness said is at line

13     17 that he was aware that there was an HQ, but he didn't remember whether

14     it was a brigade or battalion or whatever and counsel keeps naming units.

15     That might be in evidence but that's not what the witness said.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, let me just have a look.  I think

17     Mr. Kehoe asked for headquarters and a forward command post, two

18     different things.  As far as the headquarters are concerned, the witness

19     testified that he was aware of the existence of a headquarters but not

20     what unit it exactly was and then the forward command post, he was then

21     asked about that again in relation to what existed in Knin and that's a

22     different area.  It's not exactly the same as the previous questions.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  We can turn our attention --

25        Q.   Before I leave this map, Mr. Marti, how far away from the lines

Page 4665

 1     of confrontation, approximately, was the Cetina valley?

 2        A.   I can't see it on the map.

 3        Q.   Just from your recollection, just an estimate, how far away was

 4     it?

 5        A.   Without having a look at my map, I just can guess, five, six

 6     kilometres maybe.

 7        Q.   Approximately 5 or 6 kilometres?

 8        A.   Maybe even more because the map we were using normally was scale

 9     1 to 100.000 so it's not so easy.

10        Q.   Now, when you had come in June of 1995 and early part of July

11     1995, the HV had just engaged in a series of successful offensives up the

12     Dinara into the Livno valley; isn't that right?  Do you know that?

13        A.   I don't know that.

14        Q.   Let me turn your attention to your diary at -- on the 4th of July

15     and on the 4th of July in your meeting with Captain Popovic, he wanted

16     the UN to put more personnel up on the Dinara, didn't he?  With Your

17     Honour's permission if he could just refresh his recollection from his

18     diary.

19        A.   According to my diary on the 4th of July --

20        Q.   Excuse me, the third of July, I take it back, the 3rd of July, I

21     apologise.

22        A.   Yes, it was the 3rd of July when we had a meeting in Vrlika with

23     Popovic.

24        Q.   He notes and the translation notes, "In summary he demanded more

25     peacekeepers in the Dinara Mountains as quickly as possible."

Page 4666

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.    "Because otherwise Split, Sibenik, Zadar, and Dubrovnik would be

 3     bombarded so that the same thing did not happen to Krajina as happened to

 4     Western Slavonia."

 5             He, at that point, Mr. Marti, was very concerned about the

 6     successful offensives that had been conducted by the HV, wasn't he?

 7        A.   He didn't call us that was an official offensive by the HV.  By

 8     the way, that area was part of the UN protected zone.

 9        Q.   Can you explain to me why Julia was sweating while interpreting.

10     You note that Julia broke into a cold sweat while interpreting.  What was

11     that about?

12        A.   The interpreter, she was very nervous to be together with a

13     commander from so-called her side because she wanted to do the job very

14     well and it was a first time for her that she was as an interpreter

15     inside a meeting with important or high ranking persons from her side.

16        Q.   Let me turn you to another map, if I may.  Yes.  If I may, I'd

17     like you to take a look at 1D30-0005.  The area that we have highlighted

18     in red, Mr. Marti, is the area of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade.  Are

19     you familiar with the three battalions that were in the 1st Light

20     Infantry Brigade?

21        A.   No, I am not.

22        Q.   In this particular area, did you know whether the 7th Corps had

23     howitzers assigned to the area of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade?

24        A.   No, I didn't know.

25        Q.   Based on your military experience, are you familiar with the fact

Page 4667

 1     that there is artillery that is assigned on a corps level, artillery that

 2     is assigned on a brigade level, and artillery assigned on a battalion

 3     level?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Based on your testimony, you are unfamiliar of the artillery that

 6     was assigned on the corps level; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, on the brigade level at this level, are you familiar with

 9     the howitzers and T-88 or T-76s that had been assigned to the 1st Light

10     Infantry Brigade at that level?

11        A.   No, I am not.

12        Q.   And I take it that you are unfamiliar with their deployment of

13     artillery on a battalion or on a company level?

14        A.   That area, I'm not.

15        Q.   So are you familiar with how the 1st Light Infantry Brigade

16     deployed their troops in these three battalions?

17        A.   [No audible response]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer does not appear on the transcript.  I

19     think you said you didn't.

20             THE WITNESS:  I didn't know anything about these artillery

21     systems in these regions.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But the last question was about the deployment of

23     troops.  Are you familiar with how the 1st Light Infantry Brigade

24     deployed their troops in these three battalions?

25             THE WITNESS:  No, I was not familiar.

Page 4668

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   Now, you noted for us yesterday that, if I may, and this is on

 4     page 4590 line 16 through 18, you said, "We didn't see any military

 5     target or military troops or what could have been a target to be shelled

 6     by a grenade."

 7             Now, sir, an individual testified, Captain Jeff Hill testified

 8     that he was in the Strmica -- excuse me, the Cetina valley at the end of

 9     July and I'm dealing with 3808 going into 3809.  And he observed T-54s,

10     T-72s, APCs, and MP2s as well as 130 metre towed artillery, and I will

11     give you the actual page reference for this but to be specific, it's 3809

12     lines 12 and 13.

13             Now, you didn't observe that weaponry, did you?

14        A.   I mentioned yesterday when at that very day, Sunday 9th of July I

15     made crater analysis in this small hamlet near Cetina and by that time,

16     what was I observed was that the house was hit by an artillery grenade,

17     that the people are complaining and what I also observed that around the

18     house and in the near neighbourhood, there was no military target.  That

19     this was what I observed.

20        Q.   Sir, you cannot tell us -- I'm sorry.

21             Sir, you can't tell us whether or not a tank was rolling past

22     there at the time, can you?

23        A.   That very day, I didn't see any tank.

24        Q.   No, no.  The day that the shell was fired and you were not there,

25     you can't tell us whether or not a tank was rolling past and that shell

Page 4669

 1     was aimed a at a tank, can you?

 2        A.   No, because I came after the shell.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 4             MR. WAESPI:  Yes --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, are these not facts of common knowledge?

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If I'm not in Amsterdam and if a shell falls

 8     yesterday if I was not there, of course there is always the theoretical

 9     possibility that someone reported to me that there was a shell driving

10     there, but it's --

11             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, if I may.  The obvious implication by

12     the evidence that has been led by the Prosecution is that the HV was

13     firing on a civilian target and using this witness and others to

14     demonstrate that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the obvious implication and not necessarily

16     for this Chamber.

17             MR. KEHOE:  And Your Honour, I'm just trying to meet their

18     evidence in the sense that this -- the army had --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I do see your point, but you can draw our

20     attention to that fact without putting questions which are obviously

21     also -- we know the answer in advance and think until something very

22     special happens.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I'm always encouraged by your

24     conclusions, often times trying to meet the Prosecution's evidence, I try

25     to go through the paces so we can get there.  I certainly don't want to

Page 4670

 1     spend any more time on it than I have.

 2        Q.   Now, with regard to the harvesting of this particular area, the

 3     fact is that General Gotovina ordered that there should be no more

 4     shelling to allow the Serbs to harvest; isn't that so?  Do you know that?

 5        A.   No, I -- I don't know that.

 6        Q.   Let me show you --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's ask the witness.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Whenever during my mission, I have never heard the

 9     name Gotovina.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, have you any knowledge on the subject of

11     how Mr. Gotovina dealt with complaints about farmers when harvesting

12     apparently were reported to be shelled.  Did you have any knowledge of

13     that?

14             THE WITNESS:  No, I don't.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   You do know, sir, that the harvesting went through.  That the

18     harvesting took place.

19        A.   The harvest took place, yes.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, if I can offer this map on the 1st Light

21     Infantry Brigade into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

23             MR. WAESPI:  It would be useful if we could be given the

24     underlying information.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Absolutely, Your Honour.  The underlying information

Page 4671

 1     is seized ARSK documents which we will gladly share with the Prosecutor

 2     that lays out the -- or delineates the area of responsibility of the 1st

 3     Light Infantry Brigade as well as the units that are under that both at

 4     the battalion and the infantry level -- company level, excuse me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  On its face we don't have an objection.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then do the following:  You will meet

 8     Mr. Kehoe, who will explain to you the further basis on this map and you

 9     have an opportunity to revisit the decision of the Chamber within the

10     next 48 hours.  I take it there will be sufficient time for such a

11     meeting or exchange of information at least.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D388.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D388, with the proviso as I just expressed is

16     admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

17             MR. KEHOE:

18        Q.   Mr. Marti, we're going to shift gears and we're going to move to

19     the 4th of August and talking about the shelling of Knin.  Your diary

20     reflects that you were in -- and you also testified that you were in

21     Podkonje at the time?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   At the shelling.  And you likewise went to the basement of your

24     neighbour by the name of Milan; is that right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4672

 1        Q.   And during the course of that day, you were sitting in Milan's

 2     cafe, and I'm referring to your 2007 statement -- excuse me, I'm

 3     referring to your diary of the 4th, that you sat in Milan's cafe most of

 4     the day and followed the activities on the news.

 5        A.   I was not in Milan's cafe, it was just his normal house.  It was

 6     not a special cafe.  It was his private compound.

 7        Q.   Well, I mean if you can turn to your diary for the 4th of August.

 8     You note, if we can, we follow the news in Milan's cafe eat goat meat and

 9     very dry meat it is, salad, bread, and have beer.  Is that accurate?

10        A.   Yeah, but it was not a special, a public coffee shop, I mean.

11        Q.   But basically you and the other folks in Podkonje just sat out

12     the actual shelling of Knin?

13        A.   We saw that there was shellings of Knin and in the morning, the

14     first electricity went off and after a while, also our walkie-talkies run

15     out of electricity so after a while, around lunch, we didn't have any

16     connection with our HQ in Knin and we didn't have any information anymore

17     what's going on.

18        Q.   You told us yesterday at page 4634, line 5, "I mean we couldn't

19     see directly from Podkonje to Knin because there was a small hill in

20     between."  So you didn't actually see what was being hit during the

21     shelling, did you?

22        A.   No, it was impossible to is see from Podkonje directly on Knin.

23        Q.   Now, you then, according to your diary, had dinner at 1830; is

24     that right, sir?  I think it's the same paragraph you note that in the

25     evening, family of Biljana Dobricevic invites us for -- over for

Page 4673

 1     sour-crout, meat, bread and rakija?

 2        A.   Around 1930.

 3        Q.   I'm sorry, 1930.  Now, sir, now this is now about 7.30 in the

 4     evening, but it's actually before that because you said 1930 after about

 5     an hour.

 6             Now, at 1930, at about 7.30 in the evening you note that at that

 7     time, at 7.30, is when people went into a panic and I note your P415,

 8     paragraph 3, this is page 2 -- page 2 of statement, paragraph 3.  "All of

 9     a sudden, the whole village was in a panic."   Now, this, sir, was after

10     Biljana came down to say that the HV was going to come into the area;

11     isn't that right?

12        A.   Not a panic started and during that panic situation, Biljana came

13     to me and asked for fuel for her cars but it was like -- you know

14     before -- we didn't know what actually is going on.  I even remember the

15     people tried to make the mattress ready in the cellar for the children.

16     Nobody was, I mean in my opinion, by that time in this hamlet, Podkonje,

17     nobody was expecting the attack from the HV army but then all of a

18     sudden, it was like somebody has turned a switch.  For me, it was amazing

19     like before there was quiet procedure with drinking, eating, I mean we

20     didn't know what's going on but then all of a sudden, something must have

21     happened.  They must have got some information or whatever but it was a

22     real full panic.  I mean they were very scared and I remember Biljana

23     shouted on me, "Oh, once more, UN cannot help us."  Then I tried to, as I

24     have described it, I managed to get fuel for her cars, and we get

25     possibility to went into the Knin HQ of UN.

Page 4674

 1        Q.   Now, that panic came, according to your diary, at approximately

 2     7.30 at night; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, let me show you D137.  If we can go just on D137.

 5             Now, sir, this is an evacuation order signed by Milan Martic at

 6     1645 hours to evacuate and of course this order is before the 1930 panic

 7     that you witnessed.

 8             Now, just carrying on, Biljana's both father and brother-in-law

 9     were in the militia weren't they?

10        A.   I don't know that.  I cannot confirm that because I didn't have

11     so much contact only contact I had with Biljana was because she was only

12     one in this hamlet who was able to speak English.  But I don't know

13     anything about her brother and her father or whatever they did or

14     whatever they were doing.

15        Q.   Turned to P416, page 14.  This is your 1997 statement.  Do you

16     have that, sir?  P416, your 1997 statement, page 14.  Line 30, the father

17     himself was a militia member in the vicinity of Strmica.  Line 33, the

18     husband and the daughter were -- the husband of the daughter was in the

19     militia.

20        A.   No, no that are not the same people.  These are the people who

21     was rent our -- the accommodation in Podkonje, but not the brother and

22     father of Biljana who was in the hamlet in Podkonje.

23        Q.   I understand.  Thank you for the clarification.  It's not clear

24     from your 1997 statement but in any event, these two individuals, you

25     were going to get fuel for them for this family to leave; is that right?

Page 4675

 1        A.   In Podkonje.

 2        Q.   Right?

 3        A.   But these are not the people mentioned here.  Here are the people

 4     who are mentioned who has rented the houses in -- they had two houses,

 5     one in Knin and one in Podkonje and they have rent the house in Podkonje

 6     to the UNMOs but that has nothing to do with the family of Biljana

 7     which -- whom I helped to get fuel for evacuation.

 8        Q.   Now, these two individuals that you rented from that were the

 9     father and the brother-in-law that were in the militia --

10        A.   In -- mentioned here.

11        Q.   Yes.  Those are the ones you got fuel for; correct?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Who did you get fuel for?

14        A.   I got fuel for the people -- for the neighbours people in

15     Podkonje.  You know, there was a small hamlet and in one house, the UNMOs

16     lived and around these houses were some other family.  One was the family

17     of Milan, and one was the family of Biljana.  But these families actually

18     has nothing to do with the family who rent our house because that family

19     was established in Knin.

20        Q.   Now --

21        A.   And I got the fuel for the family neighbouring family in Podkonje

22     not for our landlord's family.

23        Q.   Now, if you turn to page 15 of this document, and you go to line

24     2.  And you say, "She even over looked at her father forehandedly stowed

25     two jerry cans of petrol in the car."  Who was that?

Page 4676

 1        A.   That was the family in Knin in -- who managed to escape to

 2     Belgrade because this family by the way I'm still in contact today, that

 3     was our landlord's family and the father was in the militia so the father

 4     was not with the family together but that's what they told me after when

 5     I met the family, I managed to find the family when they have escaped in

 6     March 1996 in Belgrade; and they told me what has happened to their

 7     family, so when the shelling started in the morning, the daughter was too

 8     nervous to drive the car, even her father have prepared the car for

 9     evacuation but he she couldn't manage to start the car.  But that has

10     nothing to do with the situation how it was in Podkonje by that -- on

11     that day.

12        Q.   Just going back to what you just said, the father did prepare

13     this car for evacuation, didn't he?

14        A.   Yes, but that was in Knin, not in Podkonje.

15        Q.   And as part of this evacuation, you also told -- one of the women

16     told you that she got on a bus to leave the area as well; do you recall

17     that?

18        A.   But that was from the family in Knin.

19        Q.   I understand.

20        A.   Not the people in Podkonje.

21        Q.   So buses were organised to evacuate the population?

22        A.   I don't know if that was an organised bus or whatever.

23        Q.   But she told you that she took a bus?

24        A.   Yeah.

25        Q.   Now, you also note that on line 6 of page 15, that, "Chance

Page 4677

 1     brought it about that both mother and daughter met both husband and

 2     son-in-law, the young husband of the daughter in Banja Luka."

 3        A.   Yeah, that is what he they told me in March in Belgrade.  They

 4     were met themselves together in Banja Luka, just by the accident.

 5        Q.   Was it by accident that they met or was it by accident that they

 6     went to Banja Luka?

 7        A.   It was -- as they told me, it was by accident that they met in

 8     Banja Luka.

 9        Q.   Yeah.  But you realise that the plan of the RSK was to go to

10     Banja Luka, do you not?

11        A.   I don't know that that was a plan of the RSK to go to Banja Luka.

12        Q.   Let me show you D182, just very briefly.  If we can just blow up

13     the centre of "the RSK authorities."  This notes, sir, this is although

14     the date is wrong, it's the 4th of August, we all agree, and this sets

15     out on the 4th of August that the actual plan was to go to Banja Luka.

16     You are not a ware of that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Let's shift subjects if we can and go to the actual shelling

19     itself.  And you noted for us again on page 4634 that you didn't see most

20     of the shelling.  And in your 2007 statement, on page 35, and if I can

21     get the right date for this, this is paragraph -- paragraph 35 which is

22     page 6.  You noted for us that when you were on your way -- page 6 of the

23     top paragraph on paragraph 35, that when you were on your way to the UN

24     compound the evening of the 4th, you didn't remember any shelling at that

25     time; is that right?

Page 4678

 1        A.   That was right but I mean you have also to understand the

 2     situation in which we were.  I mean we tried to have evacuate ourself and

 3     there was really a big panic and I -- even when I -- even if there would

 4     have been some shelling again, I mean you could -- you don't hear it but

 5     what I remember was another shelling is Saturday morning on the 5th of

 6     August.

 7        Q.   Now, with regard to the actual destruction of Knin and caused by

 8     the shelling, you noted for us on P415 in the fifth paragraph, second

 9     from the bottom on page two, "My area of responsibility was outside Knin

10     so I can't give you any exact statements about the destruction of the

11     city."  That's right, isn't it?  Do you want to review your statement,

12     sir, it's P415?

13        A.   No, it's correct.

14        Q.   So you can't give us any statements about the destruction, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, you noted yesterday during the course of your testimony

17     about the actual targeting and -- this is a reference back to your prior

18     testimony, I do believe that Mr. Waespi read.  Paragraph 10, page 17 of

19     Exhibit 417.  When you were talking about the shelling of Knin, you note

20     that, "There was no military target.  The only thing which might have

21     been there was a camp close to the UN camp.  A place where a few tanks

22     and a repair depot were located but it was so close to the UN camp that

23     its targeting would have been useless."

24             Do you recall saying?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4679

 1        Q.   Now, the premise that you have about the shelling of Knin being a

 2     violation of the law is based on your conclusion that there was no

 3     military targets in Knin other than the base that was next to the UN; is

 4     that not correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Let me -- I'm sorry.  Let me turn our attention to 1D17-0201.

 7     This is, Mr. Marti, an ARSK intelligence department General Staff report

 8     signed by a Colonel Mihajlo Knezevic, and I asked you to take a look

 9     at -- if we can blow up that fourth paragraph.  It notes:

10             "Knin was attacked by Livanjsko Polje from several directions and

11     by the time this information was drafted between 200 and 300 rounds of

12     different calibres impacted on the town.  The first strike was carried

13     out on the building of the SVK General Staff."  Now, that's a military

14     target, isn't it, Mr. Marti?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, the witness has told us that he was not

16     aware, when he made his assessment of military targets.  Of course the

17     Chamber has received evidence which at least strongly suggests that there

18     were quite a number of military targets.

19             Now, to go through all of them and then ask the witness whether

20     he would consider that a military target, where his assessment apparently

21     is based on the assumption that there is no military targets is not of

22     great use.

23             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Judge.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We are not seeking the judgement and we are not here

25     to educate the witness, but we are here to hear what he can tell us and

Page 4680

 1     then of course we will evaluate any flaws or any strong points in it.

 2     Please proceed.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  The rest of this paragraph and then I'll offer it,

 4     Your Honour.  Which -- I'll just offer this document into evidence, Your

 5     Honour.  1D17-0201.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  No objection, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D389, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D389 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

11        Q.   And just going into the provisional assessment.  In your 2007

12     statement, you said you were unaware of the provisional assessment that

13     was signed by Mr. Hjertnes, is that right, concerning the shelling of

14     Knin?  I turn your attention to your 2007 statement 417.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

16             MR. WAESPI:  That's paragraph 59.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you very much.  59.

18        Q.   Do you see that, sir?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   On paragraph 59 of your 2007 statement, you note that you were --

21        A.   I have been shown a report ...

22        Q.   But you hadn't seen it prior to that?  I note that you were on

23     leave between the 14th and the 22nd?

24        A.   I didn't see these paper before.

25        Q.   During this time, when Colonel Hjertnes come back, did he express

Page 4681

 1     to you at any point that he had concluded that people who had lived

 2     through the shelling in Knin on the 4th and 5th had a difficult time

 3     objectively analysing the shelling?  Did he ever tell you that?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   It was a fact that the people that were there during the time

 6     were given CTO leave; isn't that right?

 7        A.   You mean who -- who?

 8        Q.   The UNMOs that were present in the Knin area on the 4th and 5th

 9     were given compensatory time off, weren't they?

10        A.   Yeah, but that was one day.

11        Q.   Okay.  Were others given --

12        A.   I mean in my team, that was one day when we were allowed to go to

13     Sibenik.

14        Q.   Were others given more time off?

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   But you yourself were gone front 14th to the 22nd?

17        A.   Yeah, but that was the normal leave in the posting.  I mean

18     after -- the normal procedure was that you have to stay 30 days on the

19     job and then you have five days off.  And because I was -- I'm still

20     living in Switzerland, I have in these five days, I could manage to go

21     home but normally, some other UNMOs like from Russia, Bangladesh, et

22     cetera, they just spend their leave in Zagreb.

23        Q.   Now, sir, you noted that you had not seen the provisional

24     assessment.  Had you seen an assessment by CIVPOL which basically said

25     the same thing as the provisional assessment that this shelling was

Page 4682

 1     directed towards military targets?  Did you see that?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Let me continue on to another subject, sir.  This has to do with

 4     your comment again, I believe Mr. Waespi read on 417, page 17 paragraph

 5     110 at the bottom of that page, talking about the withdrawal of the

 6     Serbs, you note on the fifth line from the bottom of that paragraph, "And

 7     they also fired on the refugees."

 8             Now, you never saw the HV firing on refugees, did you?

 9        A.   No, because during the Operation Storm, we were not allowed to

10     leave the UN camp in Knin.

11        Q.   Now, sir, were you familiar with the fact that as the Serbs were

12     withdrawing, they were firing back on the advancing HV?

13        A.   No, I'm not.

14        Q.   Well, let me read you a statement -- by the way you, are you

15     familiar with the concept of fighting withdrawal?

16        A.   Yes, but not mixed with refugees.

17        Q.   Well, if the Serb -- if the RSK was in this refugee column and

18     firing back at the HV, that would be a fighting withdrawal, wouldn't it?

19        A.   Hmm, yes.

20        Q.   This is a -- this statement of Mr. Hill on page 3854, line 17:

21             "Captain, you noted for us that as you went up these roads, you

22     saw and followed the path of the Serbs who evacuated.  You saw tanks and

23     other items, right?

24             Answer:  "Yes."

25             Question:  "And when you, and I don't have the transcript but

Page 4683

 1     then you mentioned something about fighting and moving."

 2             Answer "Yes."

 3             Question:  "Can you just explain that manoeuvre just a bit."

 4             Answer:  "Starting at the intersection with Otric, there was a

 5     huge ammunition dump for lack of a better item in a field crates six or

 6     seven feet high."

 7             Going down to line 7 on 3855:  "So it appears as if the Serbs as

 8     they were going back, they were falling on to the ammunition using the

 9     ammunition to fire, to fight and to continue back as the Croats were

10     pushing them."

11             Question:  "And now you likewise observed tanks, Serb tanks and

12     that had been abandoned and then were then pointed back on the road."

13             Answer:  "Yes."

14             Question:  "Did that indicate to you that they were fighting

15     oncoming troops?"

16             Answer:  "Their muzzles were" -- sorry, "their muzzles were

17     pointed towards the Serbs were advancing."  Correction -- Judge Orie

18     intervenes with a correction and the witness says, "the muzzles of the

19     Serb tanks were pointed back down in the direction the Croats were

20     advancing."

21             Now, that type of fighting withdrawal was consistent with what

22     you observed on the road as you came up the road from Otric going north,

23     wasn't it?

24        A.   No, I have no observation on the road from up -- from Otric up

25     going north.  What I mentioned was on the street leaving Knin, after the

Page 4684

 1     Operation Oluja when we were allowed to go on patrol again, I saw on one

 2     side, I saw on the one hand, I saw craters in the street, artillery

 3     craters.  And what I saw on the street side were civilian cars which were

 4     no more able to move that were civilian clothes, furnitures and also dead

 5     animals.  That is what I stated.  But I didn't saw tanks or howitzer or

 6     whatever.  That was my statement.

 7        Q.   And with regard to the craters, you don't know when those were

 8     fired or who fired them, do you?

 9        A.   At least they were -- the craters were not on the street before

10     Operation Oluja.

11        Q.   During Operation Oluja, you don't know who fired them?

12        A.   No.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question in this respect.  When

14     looking at the craters, could you determine whether the fire was from

15     south to north or from north to south on the basis of the shape of the

16     impact?  Did you pay any attention to that?

17             THE WITNESS:  No, we didn't pay much attention on that because we

18     didn't make special crater analysis from these craters on the street.  We

19     just saw that there were artillery impacts on the street.  But we didn't

20     analyse it from which direction.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  A crater analysis requires quite a lot of things and

22     so you didn't even in a very limited way analyse the craters so as to --

23     okay, please proceed.

24             MR. KEHOE:

25        Q.   Now if we can just shift subjects if we can to the writing on the

Page 4685

 1     house of -- this is a Croatian house?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, it's 10.30 and you are entering a new

 3     subject.  I suggest that we first is have a break.

 4             Before we have a break, I would like to ask Mr. Usher, we'll have

 5     a break for approximately a half an hour, Mr. Marti.

 6             Could you please follow the usher.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as time is concerned, Mr. Kehoe, could you

 9     give us an indication?

10             MR. KEHOE:  I will finish, Your Honour, no later than the end of

11     the next session and possibly before that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Mikulicic.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  I could estimate one hour of cross-examination,

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cayley.

16             MR. CAYLEY:  We have no questions for this witness, Your Honour,

17     thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That means that we'll be able to conclude the

19     testimony of this witness today unless, Mr. Waespi, you will have long

20     re-examination.

21             MR. WAESPI:  I don't anticipate that, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. WAESPI:  So far, ten minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break and we resume at 11.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

Page 4686

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Marti, in your 1997 statement, P416 at page 10, line 18 and

 5     19, you noted that your neighbour wrote "Croatian house" with big letters

 6     on the house.  Do you recall that, sir?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And who was this person who did this?

 9        A.   That was a Croatian female who came back from I don't know where

10     and she overtook this house, it was just on the back yard of the house

11     where we were living and she wrote "Croatian house" on it, just to be

12     sure not to be looted or attacked also.

13        Q.   Was she an older lady, younger lady?

14        A.   She was quite young, about 30 years.

15        Q.   But a civilian?

16        A.   Civilian, yes.

17        Q.   And you noted for us in the same page at line 16, that writing

18     "Croatian house" was not always a guarantee that the house would remain

19     untouched.  Was that your experience?

20        A.   Yes, it happened that even houses were touched or partly damaged

21     which at the signal before Croatian property or whatever.

22        Q.   Sometimes it just didn't make a difference?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Let me just show you P123?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps when it's shown on the screen, Mr. Kehoe,

Page 4687

 1     could the witness explain what he exactly meant by "she overtook this

 2     house."

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   That would be on line 19 and 20, Mr. Marti.

 5        A.   That means the house was abandoned after Operation Oluja, and she

 6     came and just came in and thought that was her former property or the

 7     property of some relatives of her or something like that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is so with a claim that the property belonged to

 9     relatives for her she took after the house was abandoned.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, thank you.  Please proceed.

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   Had she been a refugee prior to Oluja?

13        A.   That I don't know.

14        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you P123.  That is sitrep of August 19th,

15     1995.  And Mr. Usher, if we could go in -- bear with me one moment, I'll

16     get you the exact page.  About four pages in, please to the E.  That's

17     it.  And under the E, the second paragraph -- this is a sitrep from 19

18     August at Biocic the UNMO patrol met an old whom who normally is living

19     in Sibenik.  She asked them to write a message saying, "This is a

20     Croatian house but I am living in Sibenik so please do not burn this

21     house."  Were you aware of this event, Mr. Marti?

22        A.   Not in details but in similar events as well that people came

23     back or said they have been living before here so that these are property

24     or they told us we are now coming back and take over our former property.

25        Q.   And were you aware of this woman asking UNMOs to write this --

Page 4688

 1        A.   About this still I'm not aware.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, let us turn our attention to the actual individuals

 3     committing these crimes and I note for your -- in your statement, your

 4     1997 statement and again we are talking about P416, at page 12 and you're

 5     talking about looters in this instance.  If we go to page 12, line 23.

 6             Are you with me, sir?  Now, you note that the identity of these

 7     looters was always difficult.  You have to speak into the microphone.

 8        A.   Yes.  We noticed that because it was not easy to see are they

 9     members of an army?  I mean what defines a soldier?  Is that he is carry

10     a weapon or a gun?  Or is it because he has -- he's wearing a uniform or

11     parts of the uniform?  So it was very difficult to identify these

12     looters.  Were they civilians or part of an army or whoever they were.

13        Q.   And you had that question in your mind through this period of

14     time when you saw this looting; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Let's just continue on with that part of the statement on the

17     same page starting from line 23:

18             "Trying to identify the looters was always difficult because

19     first of all, the looters carried, or when they were in a group at least

20     one of them carried a weapon, mostly an AK-47, and mostly they also wore

21     parts of uniforms, either a combat jacket or combat trousers, at least

22     one of them, they were young people, so whenever it was said that it must

23     have been soldiers, one might has to differentiate.  They belonged [sic]

24     to a regular force or young people who did not walk around as soldiers of

25     an existing unit but were just dressed like them."  That was your

Page 4689

 1     experience in your questions, wasn't it?

 2        A.   Yes, it was.

 3        Q.   Let me turn your attention to P154.  And as this is coming up,

 4     Mr. Marti, this is a UNMO sitrep of 19 September 1995.  If you can just

 5     scroll down the page, that page right there, before the 2 there, "Looting

 6     is still observed by soldiers and civilians."

 7             If you can move up four pages on the B, "And this is Team Sibenik

 8     reporting on that line," the last two lines, "The patrol observed men and

 9     civilian in uniforms looting the villages."

10             If we can go to one last -- if we can just stay on that page, go

11     on the page back.  And -- in the Team Podkonje reported on the 19th, if

12     we can roll up just a little bit there, scroll up that page.  "Team

13     Podkonje noted that it was assessed that the house was set on fire by

14     neighbours returning to the area."

15             One last item on this situation report is the next page.  And I

16     will ask you some questions about these after we review them, Mr. Marti.

17     If we can just scroll down just a bit.  And about midway through "But the

18     remaining Serbs can observe looting of the remaining houses, the

19     remaining Serbs states that the area earlier have been visited by HV

20     soldier that behaved in a correct manner but they believe that the

21     uniformed men visiting now are not real soldiers."

22             So just taking these through, I mean part of the confusion,

23     Mr. Marti, was that you had people in partial uniforms looting; right?

24        A.   Yes, that's right.

25        Q.   You had people in these partial uniforms and civilians looting;

Page 4690

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you were being told by some of the remaining Serbs that they

 4     didn't think that these were real soldiers.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   As we see in the --

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   So that led to a lot of confusion as to who exactly was

 9     responsible and how to identify these people; isn't that right?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct, but it happened because there was no

11     organisation who tried to establish at least a little bit of order.  As I

12     mentioned it yesterday to the not being, in my opinion, not so difficult

13     to minimise the lootings over weeks and even months.

14        Q.   I understand, sir.  But identifying the perpetrators based an all

15     those factors was very difficult to do?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And then in addition to that, you have the civilians actually

18     returning, the refugees returning; right?  Is that right, yes?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And they brought with them, as you said yesterday, at page 4639,

21     line 17, "I understood that there was also revenge."  Some of those

22     people that came back brought a revenge as well for what had happened to

23     them; isn't that so?

24        A.   Yeah, that's so because they told us "Where the UN have been in

25     1991 when we have been pushed out?  So we are just coming back to our

Page 4691

 1     places."

 2        Q.   But some of these people as you noted on that same page, on page

 3     4638 at line 8, "Of course when we also, we also tried to -- but what

 4     could we do against the looters?  I mean when we were on the spot, with

 5     our UN vehicle they just disappeared."  So when you came, these people

 6     left, didn't they?

 7        A.   Normally they just disappeared on even sometimes, we get in

 8     contact with them, maybe we talk to them, and as I mentioned yesterday,

 9     already one example, someone told me oh, I'm just looking for a motor so

10     here and some other told us as I mentioned before, where you have been

11     some years earlier?

12        Q.   Now, in the midst of this, I think you noted that there was a

13     lack of order and a lack of control and I refer back to your 1997

14     statement 416, page 8, line 9 and line 11.  And you believe that there

15     was some possibility to regain this control; is that right?

16        A.   Yeah, that's right.

17        Q.   Now, this -- you also noted for us yesterday that the area was a

18     very large area; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you know how large the size of the Krajina was?

21        A.   I have made a sketch very early in my diary just when I got into

22     the mission and here I notice it was -- the area for our Team Podkonje

23     before the Operation Oluja covered about 50 to 50 kilometres.

24        Q.   Well, and that area is --

25        A.   But that was prior to Operation Oluja.  Even after Operation

Page 4692

 1     Oluja, there were more regions coming -- were added.  As I mentioned

 2     before, before Operation Oluja, we didn't have access to all the places

 3     and after Oluja, we were able to go everywhere.  So it was even much

 4     bigger than before.

 5        Q.   But the area that you were covering was vast, wasn't it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And we had these people coming back as well as these other

 8     individuals looting and you simply couldn't cover all these areas, could

 9     you?

10        A.   No, it was not possible.

11        Q.   Now, sir, did you know how many civilian police were available to

12     the Croatian government to control this area?

13        A.   No, I don't know.

14        Q.   And do you know how many military police were available?

15        A.   I don't know how many were.

16        Q.   And the checkpoints he we talked about, you talked about setting

17     up a checkpoint.  Do you know how many checkpoints these civilian police

18     and the military police is set up during this time?

19        A.   What I have seen was this checkpoint I mentioned yesterday near

20     Plavno valley which was only manned a few days.  Once I have seen the --

21     it was only not a real checkpoint, it was a two-man posting in Kistanje,

22     and that's all.

23        Q.   So you don't know how many checkpoints they is set up?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Well, let's just talk about the checkpoint that you talked about

Page 4693

 1     yesterday.  I mean the checkpoint was set up in the Plavno valley; is

 2     that right?

 3        A.   Yes, where you come out -- where you leave the Plavno valley.

 4        Q.   Now, when they set that checkpoint up, did the looting in those

 5     hamlets stop?

 6        A.   That I cannot confirm because I was not in Plavno valley when the

 7     checkpoint was manned.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the witness, Mr. Kehoe, may I draw your

 9     attention to the fact that the last five, six, seven minutes, that

10     approximately 70 per cent of your questions just repeat by reading what

11     the witness said, reading what others said, asking the same questions

12     that have been answered already before.  And apparently, I mean that's at

13     least how I analyse what you are doing is that you are seeking certain

14     conclusions because from the remaining 20 or 30 per cent, I would say

15     one-third is about what the witness doesn't know and that's all to

16     demonstrate that his conclusions are wrong.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Not that, Judge, with all due respect, Judge, it's

18     some clarifications of his conclusions.  During direct testimony, Your

19     Honour, there was some very broad conclusions set forth by the witness

20     and I'm just exploring the clarification.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take the last one, whether he saw these

22     checkpoints.  He answered those questions exactly yesterday that he

23     didn't know how long they stayed because he was not present.  It was in

24     the beginning of the Plavno valley.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, I had another question to follow up with that

Page 4694

 1     which is what I was setting up which was the next question following what

 2     Mr. Waespi brought up which is:  Do you know the reasons why those

 3     individuals were taken off that particular checkpoint?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing I say is that 70 to 80 per cent of

 5     what you did over the last five to six minutes and I checked it carefully

 6     was just repeating what was already said before reading to the witness,

 7     what others had said.  This Chamber is interested in hearing from the

 8     witness what he knows rather than to hear again what he has said already

 9     before and what others have said before.

10             So therefore, I have no problem if you ask him whether he knows

11     the reasons of that.  It is similar like spending a couple of minutes

12     asking whether it takes you 20 or a 25 years in the Canadian army to have

13     sufficiently gained experience to be a General and then the same for a

14     Colonel and then -- I mean that's -- let's get to the point right away

15     and let's ask the witness -- and I'm not seeking further comments.  You

16     may ask the questions to the witness.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

18        Q.   Now, during this period of time, Mr. Marti, I mean were you aware

19     of how many arrests had been made for lootings and burnings?

20        A.   No, I'm not.

21        Q.   You noted during the course of your testimony at 4639, page 4639,

22     line 2 when you were talking about controlling the area, you noted:

23             "As I remember, on a map in the newspaper, there were five

24     brigades who had been attacked Krajina so what did they do afterwards?

25     Why didn't they provide more security?"

Page 4695

 1             Were you aware, sir, where those brigades went after Operation

 2     Storm?

 3        A.   No, I wasn't.

 4        Q.   Were you aware as an UNMO that the war continued against the

 5     Bosnian Serbs up on the border between Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   That I was aware.

 7        Q.   But you are unaware that the brigades --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You're unaware that the brigades --

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   -- that operate in the Krajina went there.

12             Now, you noted also in your testimony that public statements

13     could have been made with regard to this to cease the looting and any of

14     the criminal activity in the area; right?

15        A.   That was my estimation that maybe that could have helped a little

16     bit.

17        Q.   Now, you're talking about political leaders of the country making

18     those statements, aren't you?

19        A.   I didn't make that difference of any leaders political or

20     military or whatever, just responsible people for that Krajina after

21     Operation Oluja.

22        Q.   Do you know, sir, whether any Zagreb officials made public

23     appeals to stop the looting and the burning?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Now, obviously one of the ways to stop crime is to investigate

Page 4696

 1     these matters.  And I think what we talked about yesterday was P425 if we

 2     can bring that up.  If we can go to the next page.  This is the matter of

 3     Milan Marcetic and Suica Dusan -- Dusan Suica that we talked about

 4     yesterday, sir, and you mentioned some of your commentary about this.

 5             Across the bar table, Your Honour, I would like to offer an item

 6     into evidence which is 1D30-0017?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, I don't yet know what it is but if you

 8     know --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  It's a criminal report on this event.

10             MR. WAESPI:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D390.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D390 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Now, this notes it is filed on the 5th of October,

15     1995 on the two individuals that we just discussed.  And it is a report

16     of the MUP with an unidentified perpetrator where various steps for the

17     examination took place.

18             If I can offer this into evidence.  Has it been admitted.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It has already been admitted.  At the same time, is

20     there any way that we get this on the screen so at least we can have a

21     glance at it.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Again, D390 is 1D30-0017.  I'm delaying because I'm

23     going to flip back to the other document, so I'm just giving Your Honour

24     a chance to read through it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 4697

 1             MR. KEHOE:

 2        Q.   Now, I take it you are unaware of this filing, is that right,

 3     Mr. Marti?  Did you know that a criminal report had been filed with the

 4     Ministry of the Interior?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6        Q.   If we can go back to P425.  And if we can just go up -- if I can

 7     just reference this for, Mr. Marti, can we just go to the next page.

 8     Because attached to this exhibit is a document noted HRAT activities.

 9     Can we go one page up, please.

10             Now, the -- this note is HRAT activities.  At the bottom of the

11     page, without reading it, sir, it notes that the police arrived on the

12     scene to take the bodies for autopsy.  And at the bottom, the last two

13     lines, it notes, "A few days after the event, Croatian police drove two

14     of the villagers in order to help in the identification of three

15     suspects, currently held in Zadar."

16             If we go to the next page.  The top of the page if we could blow

17     those first two paragraphs up.  "By the two witnesses, we were told that

18     they could not identify the criminals among those three under arrest.

19     However, they stressed even if they could identify the perpetrators they

20     would not do so for fear of retaliations."

21              "On the spot, we met four anti-terrorist policemen from Zadar.

22     According to one of them, since the 30th of September, they have been

23     instructed to patrol the area on a 24-hour basis.  Also Croatian civilian

24     police had received the same instructions and a patrol was encountered in

25     the valley."

Page 4698

 1             Now, Mr. Marti, using this as an example, were you aware of this

 2     type of response by the Croatian police when such crimes occurred?

 3        A.   Yes I'm aware but it -- in some cases but not in all the cases so

 4     I hope there is not only one criminal report, there must be 184 according

 5     to our list of 184 dead bodies we found.

 6        Q.   But you were aware of this instance that --

 7        A.   Sometimes -- I mean we any case we had we tried to get in

 8     contact, special the team of Hussein Al-Alfi tried to get in contact with

 9     the authorities to clarify, but I mean the examples showed that in the

10     case of Milan Marcetic, it was too late, he has been killed, and he

11     thought he was safe according to his paper he had, as I mentioned

12     yesterday.

13        Q.   I understand, sir.  Let me turn your attention to another subject

14     which had to do with your statistical numbers that you put together with

15     Mr. Anttila and if I could turn to P176.  And if we can go to the second

16     page of this document.

17             If we may, just looking at this for reference, Mr. Marti, this is

18     a document that notes number of buildings totally damaged, partially

19     damaged.  And you come up with a final number at the last page of 17.270

20     buildings either totally or partially damaged.

21             My first question for you, sir, is how many of these buildings

22     were habitable?

23        A.   You mean habitable.

24        Q.   People could --

25        A.   After the ...

Page 4699

 1        Q.   Correct.

 2        A.   I cannot say a correct number.  Even -- I mean if a house is

 3     partly damaged, for example, you still can stay inside.  It's not so

 4     comfortable, you mean we saw such situations.  For example, one thing in

 5     one of my statements in my diary, I have noticed that we found an old

 6     woman in Plavno valley but you can look through her house.  I mean the

 7     house was partly damaged she was still inside.

 8        Q.   So looking at the partially damaged numbers that you have and in

 9     176, you note that there are 9.207 of them, we can't tell from that how

10     many of hose houses are habitable or not, can you?

11        A.   Not exactly.  I mean to be precise, you have to look at each

12     house before you make a assessment.

13        Q.   And the idea of partially damaged would come into even if there

14     was some gunshot fire on the front of that house, you would consider that

15     to be partially damaged, wouldn't you?  Even though it's habitable?

16        A.   I can only say why I would have considered this house, but as you

17     see, the list was covered together from different teams so I cannot say

18     what was the general attitude how to consider the damages of the

19     buildings.

20        Q.   Well let us turn our attention to P68.  Now, have you seen P68

21     before?  And you're welcome to scroll through this, sir, it's a

22     multi-paged document that is approximately -- not approximately, 70 pages

23     long.

24        A.   Yes, I have seen it.

25        Q.   Now, this, sir, is a compilation of the team situation reports;

Page 4700

 1     isn't that right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.  That was made in the HQ sector in Knin.  In

 3     the sector HQ in Knin.

 4        Q.   Was this the information that was used to compile the statistical

 5     items that you have set forth in 176?  In other words, number of burned

 6     houses, partially damaged, damaged, et cetera?

 7        A.   It can be a part of it.  I mean the list that we were talking

 8     about before was put together from different informations we got every

 9     day from the different teams.

10        Q.   Well, if this is the information, the sitreps from the teams,

11     what else did you have?

12        A.   You mean who have what?

13        Q.   What other information did you have that went into the compiling

14     of Exhibit P76, the statistics of buildings damaged and partially damaged

15     or totally damaged?

16        A.   There are no other informations.

17        Q.   So all of the information that you used to compile Exhibit 176

18     should be set forth in these sitreps?

19        A.   That also might be possible that some of the teams brought the

20     information directly into the HQ, but I cannot be sure that any

21     information was before exactly in a daily sitrep and information was only

22     collected through the -- was condensed with all the sitreps.  It might

23     also be possible that some teams brought their information directly to

24     the HQ.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

Page 4701

 1             MR. WAESPI:  The question that was asked to the witness was, "So

 2     all of the information that you used to compile exhibit 176 should be set

 3     forth in these sitreps."  I think it should be made clear or asked to the

 4     witness who compiled the information, Exhibit 176, what was the

 5     involvement of the witness --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Hold on a second.  This is redirect examination and I

 7     don't want the Prosecution flagging answers to the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you not talk at the same time.

 9             Let me just ... in order to better understand the testimony of

10     the witness, it makes some sense to be better informed about how Exhibit

11     176 was compiled.  That will certainly assist us in better understanding

12     his answers.

13             Mr. Waespi, perhaps you could introduce this suggestion in a

14     different way so as not to give Mr. Kehoe the impression that you are

15     starting redirect examination which I do understand was not your

16     intention.

17             Could you tell us a bit more about how this list on the basis of

18     what and especially by whom this Exhibit 176 was compiled?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I will try it.  This list which

20     we were discussing before was produced by the team in -- the Human Rights

21     Action Team in Knin.  And as we know, Kari Anttila was part of it like

22     me.  And most of the computer work, it was Kari who typed the list.  Me,

23     I was not is so very used to use this computer system, it's the -- all

24     these lines and et cetera.

25             The basis of this information was on one side as I have mentioned

Page 4702

 1     already, was the daily sitreps, but I cannot say that there was no other

 2     information to collect -- no other information included as it might have

 3     been possible that they got direct information from other teams also.

 4     And I mentioned yesterday already also that when you saw the Team

 5     Podkonje we only mentioned the people that we found not the houses so I

 6     already mentioned already.  Is so my main focus was not counting houses

 7     when I was on patrol, my main focus was always to care about the people

 8     who were still there.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   Was there any other -- I apologise.

12             Other than the sitreps, to your knowledge, was there any other

13     formal procedure within the UN UNMOs of collecting this information?

14        A.   No, there was not a formal procedure.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Let me -- if I might just have one moment, Your

16     Honour.

17        Q.   Let me show you P65.  Have you ever seen this form before,

18     Mr. Marti?

19        A.   Yes, during the proofing, I have seen it.  During the proofing

20     time we were discussing it.

21        Q.   Now, was this an official document that was used to collect

22     information?

23        A.   That was a document that the Podkonje team used but it was

24     self-made document.

25        Q.   So this was a document that was only used for Team Podkonje?

Page 4703

 1        A.   I don't know if the other team -- or I don't remember if other

 2     teams had also the same form but that was only among us to make it easier

 3     when you were on patrol to figure out what he we had to do.

 4        Q.   Now, looking at this form, what was to be included in this form

 5     as opposed to what was to be included in the sitreps?

 6        A.   That should normally also noticing in the sitrep.

 7        Q.   So whatever is in these forms should also be in the sitreps?

 8        A.   I guess, yes.

 9        Q.   Now, when you were putting together P176, your statistical

10     form -- well, let me withdraw that for one moment.

11             You noted that this was a form for Team Podkonje.  When you were

12     putting your statistical information together to -- on P176 with

13     Mr. Anttila, did you see dozens and dozens of these forms like this?

14        A.   I can't remember that I have seen dozens and dozens of these

15     forms.

16        Q.   You have?

17        A.   No, that I haven't.

18        Q.   You have not.  Okay?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  For the benefit of the interpreters, the

20     witness is kindly asked to speak up, if possible.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You heard that, Mr. Marti.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I heard.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please.

24             MR. KEHOE:

25        Q.   Now, just before we leave this area, on your definition of

Page 4704

 1     partially damaged and damaged, if we have a situation for instance if the

 2     police went in and broke in a door to do a search and the door was

 3     broken, would that be considered a partially damaged residence?

 4        A.   No, no, if only a door is broken, that is not, in our opinion,

 5     that was not partially damaged.

 6        Q.   Let us turn our attention to the document that you -- came in

 7     previously but your name is on it, P177.  Now, on the front page of P177,

 8     the document that you signed with Mr. Anttila, you have very specific

 9     percentages and numbers in the second paragraph, do you see that?

10        A.   Yes, I see.

11        Q.   And of course those numbers are only as accurate as the

12     underlying data; isn't that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Let us turn our attention to 176 -- excuse me, P176, I apologise.

15     Now, just looking at this report, with you noted yesterday that Team

16     Podkonje didn't have the number of buildings that were in the villages

17     because I think you told us that you were interested in people not

18     buildings; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, and --

20        Q.   That, of course, throws the numbers off.  But let us move away

21     from, if we could, from Team Podkonje and move to the second to last page

22     of this document.  We were looking at the team Otocac numbers, I believe

23     that's the -- a few pages up, if we can.  Actually, five pages up.  We're

24     going to the second to last page in this document.  The next page.  It

25     should be the Otocac number.

Page 4705

 1             Now, when you were compiling these statistics, Mr. Marti, did you

 2     notice that virtually all of the Otocac numbers were multiples of five

 3     barring a couple here and there?  Firstly, all of these numbers on

 4     numbers of buildings totally damaged and partially damaged were numbers

 5     of five.  For instance, if we look at Korenica:  3.000 buildings, 600

 6     totally damaged, 24 partially damaged.  Five down, Licki Osik:  2.000

 7     buildings, 250 damaged, 550.  When you were compiling these statistics,

 8     did you question this number gathering?

 9        A.   As I mentioned already, I didn't compile these statistics myself,

10     I think it was rather Kari Anttila than me.  Maybe I would have also

11     asked what is this -- all these numbers if possible dividing into five or

12     ten.  But I have maybe to explain a little bit this procedure of

13     collecting information.  Not all the teams had the same accurate or the

14     same procedures.  Some teams just drove through a village and they count

15     the buildings and then they told us:  Oh, we have been driving through

16     this village.  There are no people in this village.

17             And I remember very well in one of the team leaders meeting where

18     Steinar Hjertnes, I made an intervention because I told them, look, can

19     you not just drive through a village.  You have to calm down.  You have

20     to stop the car, you have to calm down, leave the car and you have to go

21     around the buildings because when you come with a vehicle to a village,

22     the first reaction to the people still living there is to hide because

23     they didn't know who is coming so they hide.  So to find the people you

24     have to get out of the car but not all the teams did the same procedure

25     as I did it in my team and so that's kind of maybe also be a case that

Page 4706

 1     they just figure out is numbers and it's not -- it must be -- or it

 2     cannot be very precise, even I can't imagine how is it that you count

 3     buildings in a village if you want to do it perfectly, you need at least

 4     half a day for each village if you want to do it in a proper way count

 5     the buildings, and then not only counting but also estimate what is the

 6     condition of the buildings, damaged, partly damaged or not damaged.

 7        Q.   Well, let me go to this second page of this document just to --

 8     not to leave Team Otocac alone, the second page in the Zadar Benkovac

 9     team.  I think that's the same page.  If we go to the next page.  If we

10     look at the numbers from the Zadar-Benkovac virtually all of those

11     barring an individual one, those are all multiples of five as well.  So

12     these numbers themselves are not accurate numbers where -- not precise

13     numbers are they?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, when you were going through here, you didn't account for the

16     fact that, for instance, Rodaljice, you see that in there, you have 701

17     buildings, 118 partially damaged, 230 fully damaged, you didn't account

18     for the fact that that's a Croat village?

19        A.   I don't know.  I didn't ...

20        Q.   Now, this particular item, these items of evidence, and -- you

21     were doing this in conjunction with the Human Rights Action Teams; isn't

22     that right?

23        A.   Yes, when I was appointed as a Senior Liaison Officer this is

24     Human Rights Action Team.

25        Q.   And the individual who was on the scene at the time was an

Page 4707

 1     individual by the name of Edward Flynn, E. J. Flynn; do you remember him?

 2        A.   I don't remember Flynn.

 3        Q.   And just looking at September, or his particular testimony on 11

 4     April 2008, he was asked on page 313:

 5             "Did the UNMOs ever appear at the HRAT evening meeting and tell

 6     you that he had counted, let's say, 11.000 burned houses?"

 7             Answer:  "No, not to my recollection."

 8             Question:  "That number would have been something that you would

 9     have remembered; is that correct?"

10             Answer:  "I think so."

11             Question:  "Did they ever come back and say 16.000 houses?"

12             Answer:  "I know that the UNMOs were conducting a survey and I

13     know that their numbers were high.  Again as I say when I refer to my own

14     estimate, my estimate is to be on the conservative side.  I don't recall,

15     though, any discussions with regard to those numbers while I was there."

16             Now, just one last inter -- delineation there.

17             Question:  "Let's discuss, then, what would you discuss at the

18     HRAT meetings at which UNMOs are present and if they counted 11.000

19     homes, would that be something that you would have discussed at the

20     evening meeting of HRAT?"

21             Answer:  "Yes."

22             Question:  "Is so you're telling us at least through your time

23     which I believe you said was 16 September, no UNMO came to a meeting and

24     said we've counted 11.000 burned houses?"

25             Answer:  "I only recall and I only reported on the sightings that

Page 4708

 1     had been made and yeah, I don't recall at that we discussed any

 2     information you described."

 3             Now, can you explain to me, sir, why this type of information

 4     with these numbers would have been considered or -- let me withdraw that,

 5     would not have been discussed with the person who was in charge of these

 6     HRAT teams.  Do you know?

 7        A.   I cannot anything explain what this Mr. Flynn is telling here

 8     because I don't know him.  I have never met him.  But I have attended

 9     several meetings together with Hussein Al-Alfi together with UNHCR,

10     together with Red Cross, so I was in different meetings, but I don't know

11     this Mr. Flynn.

12        Q.   So you can't explain why he thinks --

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   -- your numbers are high?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Let me turn your attention to P169.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, may I take it that you wanted to ask the

18     witness whether he can explain why Mr. Flynn thought the numbers --

19             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the numbers to be high.  There is a difference.

21             MR. KEHOE:  I apologise.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Let's turn to P169.

24        Q.   This is a sitrep of 20 October 1995 and if we can turn in three

25     pages.  I want to ask you if you were a -- at the bottom of that page,

Page 4709

 1     "Other significant incidents."  If we can just blow that up just a bit.

 2             Now, in this, this is quoting a Slobodna Dalmacija, by the way

 3     this is an UNMO sitrep, a Slobodan Dalmacija article where it quotes

 4     General Cermak noting about the burned and destroyed homes:

 5             "We have been told to the ambassadors that information proclaimed

 6     by UNCRO of 22.000 burned and destroyed houses in the former Sector

 7     South, in other words, 70 per cent of all the objects in the area is

 8     completely untrue.  According to our reports there is a number of 2.000

 9     to 3.000 houses, not 22.000, General Cermak said."

10             Now, Mr. Marti, with the statistical analysis and the other

11     problems with your statistics, the number that General Cermak assesses

12     here is a more accurate assessment of the actual damage to the houses in

13     the former Sector South, isn't it?

14        A.   That I cannot say because I don't know what General Cermak was --

15     the basis of his assessment.

16        Q.   Let me just ask you one last area, sir, and it has to do with on

17     the freedom of movement issues.  In your 1997 statement on page 4, line

18     25 to 27, it says, "On one day Lieutenant-Colonel Steinar Hjertnes, the

19     commander of Norwegian Lieutenant-Colonel, he was the sector chief told

20     us to stop observing military movements or to rather concentrate on

21     events in the humanitarian field."

22             Do you see that, sir?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, in reality, you and the other UNMOs continued to monitor and

25     report on military movements, didn't you?  Yes?

Page 4710

 1        A.   No that's not true because after Operation Oluja our main task as

 2     a military observer that we had before, I mean it was over, there was no

 3     more UN zone of -- no UN zone of protection anymore so the main task to

 4     observe the cease-fire between these two parties was gone.

 5        Q.   So --

 6        A.   But we still noted when we military movement from the Croatian

 7     army but after a while Steinar told us hey, it's no more our job we don't

 8     have to observe what the Croatian army is doing because the situation has

 9     changed.

10        Q.   Well, but the UNMOs continued to do it into October, didn't they?

11        A.   To --

12        Q.   To report on HV military movements, didn't they?

13        A.   Yes, some of them -- that was like a normal procedure whenever

14     you see somewhere some military activities, you note this down.

15        Q.   And this was outside their mandate, wasn't it as to what you were

16     supposed to be doing?

17        A.   Yeah, because the mandate was established for the mandate

18     before -- for the situation before Operation Oluja.

19        Q.   Now, tell me in your -- tell me about Operation Black Crow?

20        A.   Black what?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   Black bird.

23        Q.   Black bird, black crow, I can point it to you in your diary of

24     September 30th of 1995.  Black Crow or Black Bird was an operation where

25     all the UNMOs were tasked to go into Bosnia and Herzegovina and report on

Page 4711

 1     HV military movements and HV emplacements ; isn't that right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   So they went into an area contrary to the mandate that they had

 4     with the Republic of Croatia to gather information about UN military is;

 5     right -- HV military -- excuse me; right?

 6        A.   I don't know that we had after Operation Oluja what kind of

 7     mandate UN had with Croatian army.

 8        Q.   Let's just look at that, then, because it's in P28, the

 9     Akashi-Sarinic Agreement, if we can bring that up on the screen and you

10     can take it look at it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any need -- is it a primary focus to see

12     whether the witness considers it contrary to the mandate or not or first

13     of all to find out what actually happened?

14             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, both.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.    Now, if we can just blow up the bottom of that and going into

18     the next page, paragraphs 4 and 5 set forth what the UN was to do or not

19     to do.  Mr. Marti, are you familiar with this agreement?

20        A.   No, I'm not.

21        Q.   Why don't we just -- if you can flip to the next page.

22     Paragraphs 4 and 5, if we can read that -- if you can read that to

23     yourself.

24             Do you see that, sir?

25        A.   Now I have read it.

Page 4712

 1        Q.   Now, when you told us in your statement of 1997, P416 on page 4

 2     that Steinar Hjertnes said that the mandate had changed and that you were

 3     now supposed to -- that you had to stop observing military movements but

 4     rather concentrate on events in the humanitarian field, it's based on

 5     this agreement?

 6        A.   Okay.

 7        Q.   Now, Black Crow was -- Black Bird was ordered on the 30th of

 8     September, 1995.  Who ordered that?

 9        A.   It was Steinar.  I mean I don't know -- sorry.  I don't know if

10     he has got some other order from somewhere, but he ordered it to the

11     UNMOs to conduct these patrols.

12        Q.   And you knew, sir, that the UNMOs in Sector South were not

13     supposed to be in Bosnia patrolling, didn't you?

14        A.   No, because I didn't know anything about the new agreement.  The

15     reason why we were told to do these patrols was because we had still a

16     restriction of movement -- we never were able to drive over Strmica.  I

17     mean on the other side the direction south, Drnis et cetera, Maljkovo.

18     We could go anywhere.  The only road that which was closed for us after

19     Operation Oluja was this road after Strmica.

20        Q.   Sir, this monitoring of HV activities in Bosnia-Herzegovina was a

21     change in your mandate -- excuse me, was counter to what you had been

22     told by Steinar that you were now supposed to be involved in humanitarian

23     endeavors; isn't that right?

24        A.   No, the task which we got which Operation Blue Bird was not to

25     monitoring any military activities on the other side but to get to know

Page 4713

 1     what has happened according to the humanitarian side because we know

 2     there had also been fighting, et cetera, and our task was to monitor if

 3     there are still some people left, like left in Krajina, some people who

 4     wanted to run away or who couldn't run away, and I remember very well I

 5     was also on patrol in the Operation Blue Bird together with

 6     Bertil Svendsen and I remember this patrol very well because of two

 7     things once, the only person we found still alive in this region was an

 8     old woman in a hamlet, and this woman was a very bad conditions and the

 9     case too because I remember very well on the way back, Bertil and me

10     realised we were driving through a minefield.

11             So the task which we got from Steinar was not to monitor any HV

12     movement but to get the picture of the humanitarian situation in these

13     villages.

14        Q.   Mr. Marti, can you explain to me why this so-called Operation

15     Black Bird or Black Crow is not contained in any of the sitreps that was

16     produced by the any of the UNMOs during this time frame?

17        A.   No, it's mentioned in my diary.

18        Q.   You diary didn't get sent to Zagreb, did it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Sir, prior to Operation Storm, you weren't authorised to patrol

21     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you?

22        A.   Prior to Operation Storm?

23        Q.   No?

24        A.   No, the mandate was very clear inside the zone of protection, it

25     said.

Page 4714

 1        Q.   When you went into Bosnia-Herzegovina for Operation Black Crow or

 2     Black Bird did you get the authorisation of the Republic of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4        A.   No, I mean I didn't get any as a UNMO in a patrol, any get any

 5     authorisation.  What I got was the task from Steinar to go and we did it

 6     special places, I mean we had clear order where we have to drive, which

 7     road, et cetera, what we have to monitor and when we have to come back.

 8        Q.   And you don't know if anybody else got that authorisation from

 9     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you?

10        A.   No, I don't know.

11             MR. KEHOE:  If I might have one moment, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, about the date.  I see the Chamber was

13     not aware of any Black Crow, Blue Bird or Black Bird but apparently it

14     started on the 30th of September.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Correct.

16             THE WITNESS:  It was called Black Bird.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You used the word Blue Bird as well.

18             MR. KEHOE:  The colour of the bird was dark.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The indictment usually goes until the 30th of

20     September which you -- I think you've drawn our attention to that, so

21     apparently something happened and you think it was beyond the mandate.

22     Where does the relevance --

23             MR. KEHOE:  There has been tremendous amount of evidence that has

24     transpired in this courtroom concerning restrictions of movement.  We

25     have had any number of witnesses coming in and telling the Court we

Page 4715

 1     couldn't go to this place or we couldn't go to that place all through

 2     August and September and frankly into October and the information

 3     inference why the HV or the Republic of Croatia of precluding such

 4     movement was because something bad was happening.  Well, the answer to

 5     that is two scores.

 6             Number one, there was military operations, continuing military

 7     operations which clearly HV did not want the UN on and number two, there

 8     was activities such as this where they were going into areas that they

 9     weren't supposed to be, reporting back on HV movements contrary to the

10     mandate.  How does that come into play?  We need only go back to the

11     whole information that was transmitted by the UN to the ARSK or

12     surreptitiously received by the ARSK during Operation Storm.  And the

13     restrictions of movement that place into those concerns by the HV and the

14     Republic of Croatia concerning the activities of the UNMOs as they

15     travelled around.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see now how you perceive the relevance of

17     your questions.

18             Mr. Kehoe, could you tell us how much more time you'd need?

19             MR. KEHOE:  If I might just have one -- just five seconds, Judge.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Five seconds from further questions.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I know you will be very glad to hear

23     this but I have no further questions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm -- that doesn't make me happy as such.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Globally, Judge.

Page 4716

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Mikulicic, you are the next one but would

 2     it not be better to have a -- take a break a bit earlier then to resume

 3     at 25 minutes to 1.00 and if you could then conclude, even Mr. Kehoe

 4     managed to stay well within the time that he estimated.  That you would

 5     then take 55 minutes, try to finish in 50 minutes, would 15 minutes then

 6     do for you, Mr. Waespi.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  I believe so.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break and resume at 25 minutes to

 9     1.00 sharp.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Marti, you will now be cross-examined by

13     Mr. Mikulicic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Marti, my name is

18     Goran Mikulicic and I represent Mr. Markac in these proceedings.  I'm

19     going to ask a few questions although my learned colleague here already

20     raised certain issues with you, and I'm not going to repeat them.

21             I would appreciate to have your answers to the best of your

22     recollection after so many years after the event.

23             Mr. Marti, according to your statement, on the 12th of July, in

24     1995, you arrived in Zagreb where you underwent a week's training for

25     UNMOs in the area of the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Can you

Page 4717

 1     tell us briefly how did this training look like?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.  First, I have to make a correction.  I didn't arrive

 3     on the 12th of July but on the 12th of June in 1995 in Zagreb, 12th of

 4     June, 1995.

 5             I had a training as a UN Military Observer, a three-week training

 6     before in SwitzerlandSwitzerland organises every year a three-week

 7     training course for international officers from different countries for

 8     the teaching when you become a military observer, so actually the

 9     training so-called training week we had in Zagreb, that means every UNMO

10     who came to the mission in Zagreb, he had to do some specific things, for

11     example, the most important one for all of us was to get the driving

12     licence as an UNMO, but there were also some few trainings in how to

13     handle a car, how to repair a car, how to carry out crater analysis,

14     how -- there were also some medical trainings but compared with the

15     three-week training that I had before in Switzerland in spring 1994, this

16     training was, in my opinion, only a how you say, a refresher training for

17     me.

18        Q.   I understand.  Within this training, were you given certain

19     information about the historical and political situation pertaining to

20     the area that you were going to be assigned to?

21        A.   The information we got about the political situation was very

22     few, I mean we got a situation how it was by that time, and we were told

23     to attend every morning a briefing in the UNMO HQ in Zagreb, but this

24     briefing, of course, was concentrated on the situation like it was by

25     that time.  So about historical situation, we didn't get so many

Page 4718

 1     informations.

 2        Q.   Would you agree with me if I say that in a certain way, you were

 3     learning as long as you went concerning these particular issues?

 4        A.   I don't understand the question well.  You mean if we were

 5     learning by doing or what exactly is your question?

 6        Q.   I will rephrase the question.  In discharging your duties, on a

 7     daily basis, you actually became acquainted with the political situation

 8     in the area that you were intended to observe; is that correct?

 9        A.   That is correct, but about the political situation, how it was in

10     the field, we didn't discuss much.  We just knew that we have to go to

11     the Sector South and we knew the lucky one of us are posted on the

12     Croatian side and less lucky one of us have to be posted on the Serbian

13     side and then we have to try to manage and to do our task as well as

14     possible.

15        Q.   Thank you.  So on the 19th of June, you arrived in Knin as the

16     head of the Podkonje Team, 7CW.  How many vehicles did you have and how

17     many men were there on your team?

18        A.   No, that's not correct.  I mean I arrived on the 19th of June in

19     Knin, but of course not as a head of the team but as a simply a member.

20     I mean I was the greenhorn in the team by that time.  By that time, we

21     had two vehicles for the team and due to security matters, every night,

22     we had to park one of our vehicles in the UN -- in the sector HQ in Knin

23     because we had only space, that means a garage, for one vehicle in -- on

24     the team site in Podkonje.

25        Q.   The territory that you were covering was pretty large, it

Page 4719

 1     stretched from Knin to Otric and then from Knin to the

 2     Bosnian-Herzegovinian border and on the other side, from Knin to

 3     Kistanje.  With the vehicles and the men that you had, were you able to

 4     cover fully this territory in doing your daily job?

 5        A.   Of course it was a very difficult job to do with even when we had

 6     two patrols the whole day on the road, you cannot cover much because when

 7     you -- when you conduct a patrol, for example, from Knin to Otric, that

 8     means half a way, it's a half a day task, and the same when you travelled

 9     from Knin to Drnis and back with all the -- with the checkpoints that

10     were there and et cetera, all the security measures we had to fulfill, so

11     it was a very hard -- it was quite a difficult task to monitor the whole

12     area quite properly.  So whatever we monitored, by that time, it was only

13     punctual monitoring, but we didn't cover the whole situation all the

14     time.

15        Q.   After the Croatian authorities were restored in the territory of

16     the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina after Operation Oluja, you said

17     that your mandate actually was altered.  In that respect, did you receive

18     any official instructions regulating the change of the mandate of UN

19     monitors?  In that context, I'm referring to official --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction --  to written

21     instructions regarding the change of the mandate.

22             THE WITNESS:  No, as I have mentioned already before, we didn't

23     or at least me, I didn't receive any written order that the mandate has

24     changed to something else what we had before.

25        Q.   Concerning the subsequent change of the mandate, did you receive

Page 4720

 1     any additional training for your future tasks after the mandate was

 2     altered in this particular area?

 3        A.   No, we didn't receive any training because there was also no

 4     time.  I mean the situation has -- had a change after Operation Oluja and

 5     the problem was that there were some people on the ground which were not

 6     safe so the time was running to do something for these people.

 7        Q.   Did you have an opportunity, Mr. Marti, to become acquainted with

 8     the organisation and the structure of the Croatian army, the civilian

 9     police, and, generally speaking, how the Croatian authorities operated in

10     the territory that had been recently liberated?

11        A.   No, I didn't have this opportunity, what I only got was the

12     punctual contact with some of the Croatian authorities in Knin and some

13     of these contacts were quite difficult.  I can give you an example.

14     There was a graveyard near Knin and we noticed that there have been made

15     fresh graves and on the graves was -- were putting crosses and on the

16     crosses were not names but only NN and then numbers, but different

17     numbers.  I mean the numbers didn't follow 1, 2, 3, 4, for example, you

18     have number 609 then 704 and so on and so on; and when I was in the team

19     with Hussein Al-Alfi, we tried to find who is buried in this grave.  We

20     thought when there are crosses with different numbers, there must also be

21     somewhere a list with different numbers.  And it takes us days and weeks

22     to figure out who was responsible for these graves, who had a list about

23     these dead bodies who have been buried here.

24             So during my time in Knin in the Human Rights Action Team, we

25     were not able to find out who was buried there.  Maybe, I don't know if

Page 4721

 1     after Hussein Al-Alfi or his -- somebody else finally managed to find out

 2     who had been buried there.  So this is an example, I just want to show

 3     you how difficult it was to find somebody in Knin who was responsible,

 4     who was willing to help us.

 5        Q.   In this context, were you familiar with the organisation and

 6     functioning of the civilian protection?

 7        A.   I remember one day, according to the case I have mentioned

 8     before, I had a contact with this -- what do you call -- civilian

 9     protection unit, but even they told us:  We cannot help you.  You have to

10     address yourself to another organisation or another office in, I think it

11     was Zadar.

12        Q.   Mr. Marti, do you know what the role of the special police was in

13     Operation Storm and after the Operation Storm?

14        A.   No, I don't.

15        Q.   Did you ever have an opportunity to talk to any member of the

16     special police?

17        A.   I think the only contact I had with the special police was

18     together with this case in Podinarje where some Serb man wanted to come

19     back from the forest and they wanted to be handed out to the Croatian

20     authorities, but I think that was only a very small contact.  By that

21     time, I was in the team the first day when we wanted to go to Podinarje,

22     we couldn't go because I think it was this -- what do you call the

23     special police was carrying out an operation near the area of Podinarje

24     and in the following time, I think we had a small contact with them, but

25     that was the only one.

Page 4722

 1        Q.   Thank you for this.  We'll come back to this topic later.

 2             Mr. Marti, you mentioned that on the day when Operation Storm

 3     began, on the evening of that day, you were with the family of the

 4     neighbours where you were living and that at one point, panic broke out

 5     and you explained how it all happened.  My question is:  Were you aware

 6     how the media in Knin were informing the public?  Were you able to follow

 7     the news that were disseminated through the Knin media?

 8        A.   No, I was not able.  The only thing I noticed that during the

 9     day, also the radios went off because of lack of batteries so we were

10     more or less cut off of any information in this hamlet, Podkonje.

11        Q.   Do you know that somebody from among the ranks of UNMO had an

12     obligation to follow the work of the Krajina media and provide certain

13     analysis, information, et cetera, in that respect?

14        A.   Among the ranks of UNMO?  I don't know.  I have never heard that.

15        Q.   In your earlier testimony, you told us that you managed to

16     provide and secure fuel for the vehicles owned by your neighbours.  Allow

17     me to read it out to you a portion of your statement which is Exhibit

18     P415, which is your 1996 statement in which you say the following --

19     that's paragraph 3 on page 1, three lines before the end of the paragraph

20     and I'm going to quote from your statement, [In English] "... from the UN

21     headquarters in Knin but I have to they have to help us in return as long

22     as we had Serbs with us, the Serbian soldiers wouldn't touch us."

23             [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, can you explain why you needed

24     protection so that you wouldn't be touched by the Serbs at that time in

25     order not to prevent you in a certain way.  What was this all about?

Page 4723

 1        A.   You have to imagine the situation on that very evening.  I mean

 2     we were still more or less hoped by the villagers, I mentioned before

 3     that in the morning in the -- UN send an APC to collect all the UN

 4     personnel in and around Knin but when this APC conducted by Jordanian

 5     military arrived near the village, they -- the villagers, they didn't let

 6     us go.  So they said that people in the village, they said, "You have to

 7     stay.  You have to protect us as a UN," so the APC drove back.

 8             But when, in the evening when the panic broke out, and Biljana

 9     asked for fuel and I told her first, look, and she shouted, "UN is not

10     helping us."  And even I had the discussion with the team leader, with

11     the deputy team leader, the team leader was on leave, the deputy team

12     leader was Felix Anglada from Spain and I had a discussion with him.  I

13     told him, we have to manage how that we be -- can get into a shelter.  I

14     mean the security for us was also important.

15             So I made a deal with Biljana, and I was supported by

16     Pavel Komper a colleague from the Czech Republic, so I told Biljana,

17     look, I have no fuel here because our car is a Toyota Land Cruiser and

18     this car needs diesel so we don't have any fuel for your car here, but I

19     try to manage to get fuel for you but on the other side, you must

20     guarantee that we, the UNMO team, can get safely into the UN compound in

21     Knin.  So Pavel and me and her and her brother drove in the private car

22     from Podkonje to Knin and I went -- by that time, the road was messed up

23     with refugees, et cetera, already, farmer trucks, et cetera, it was not

24     so easy to get through this mess but when we arrived the gate, then

25     Biljana's brother thought, ah, now you are safe but maybe you don't come

Page 4724

 1     because you are now in the camp.  And then Pavel told them he will wait

 2     outside for me until I will come back with the fuel.

 3             I went inside the camp and of course it is not a problem to get

 4     two canisters of fuel.  We went back, still through this whole mess, and

 5     now -- I mean now it was the key point of the situation because we had

 6     fulfill the part of our agreement, and now it was on Biljana's side to

 7     fulfill also her -- their part of the deal.  And we had still this -- we

 8     had one car that Toyota Land Cruiser, so we packed as much as possible

 9     things in this car, and we were five UNMOs by that time, and drove back.

10             But to drive back with a UN car during that mess, you needed a

11     protection and the protection was one car of Biljana's family in front of

12     us, then Biljana was sitting on my knees in the car, and behind us was

13     another car of Biljana's family.  And during the whole drive from

14     Podkonje to the Knin HQ, I mean it was not so far, about 2 kilometres,

15     the people were bumping on our car, they were shouting and I was very

16     sure without Biljana and her family in our car and around our car, we

17     would have never had the chance to get through this mess safely into the

18     UN HQ.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Marti, for this exhaustive answer, but with all

20     due respect, you did not answer my question.  My question was:  Why did

21     you think that for as long as you had Serbs with you, the Serbian

22     soldiers won't touch you?  Why did you think that there was danger from

23     the Serbian soldier for the UN vehicle and yourself as an UNMO?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, when you said the witness didn't

25     answer your question.  Your question was, the last part was:  What was

Page 4725

 1     this all about?  I wondered whether I would not have stopped the witness

 2     halfway because I didn't -- hardly could imagine that you would be

 3     interested in all these kind of details.  Please take -- intervene when

 4     need be and do not wait for one page and then say to the witness he did

 5     not answer your question when he actually to some extent did.  Please

 6     proceed.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I will follow your guidance.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, let me repeat my question.  I was

 9     referring to the following:  Why did you emphasise that there was certain

10     fear that you might be attacked by the is Serbian soldiers and I'm

11     referring to your 1996 statement?  We are talking about the Serbian

12     soldiers.

13        A.   I mean the situation was very confusing and as we had some

14     experience before, I mean there were -- have been -- I mean the situation

15     was not so intense like in that very evening there had been -- have been

16     different car hijacking so I mean when you are in a situation and

17     everybody try to run away, I think it was very -- it could have happened

18     very easily that they would have also tried to steal our car which we

19     still had and then we would have been in Podkonje without any car.  I

20     mean together with this Serb family by that time was only a security

21     measure.

22        Q.   I understand.  Does this mean that in the -- on the evening of

23     the 4th of August when you went to Knin and back, between Podkonje and

24     Knin, there was the is Serbian army deployed?

25        A.   I didn't see any specific members of the army because I mean it

Page 4726

 1     was a crowd on the road and I didn't have time to look around.  I was

 2     much more concentrated just what is in front of our car.

 3        Q.   Very well.  Let us move to another topic now.  There was a lot of

 4     mention in your previous testimony of the looting that followed or the

 5     incidents of looting that followed in the aftermath of Operation Storm.

 6     You made several references to this, and I would just like to ask you a

 7     few questions with respect to this.  In your statement given in 1997,

 8     that's Exhibit P416, page 4, line 11 to 15, you mention that in the area,

 9     there were some roving gangs who were committing looting in the area.

10     Many of them were dressed in uniforms and that they were armed.

11             Can you give us more details about these roving gangs and what

12     did you mean by that?

13        A.   We saw the -- as I have mentioned before, we saw groups or --

14     groups of young men who were roaming around and the people were afraid of

15     them.  And as I mentioned before, it was not easy to say that these are

16     members of an army or civilians or whatever, but it had happened several

17     times that we saw such groups.

18        Q.   And these groups associated you to roving gangs; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, you can call it like that.

20        Q.   On page 5 of the same statement, and I'd like to refer you to

21     lines 5 to 9, you mention, and I will quote your statement, perhaps

22     that's easier than have it interpreted:

23             [In English] "The Croatian people came partly they as they told

24     us, had been living there before.  They came back, and they acted

25     accordingly.  When we confronted them that they would behave like

Page 4727

 1     looters, they told us that the same happened to them, and we also had a

 2     situation that we did not have enough translators and that we partly had

 3     to work with translators who were employed with the Croatian side ..."

 4             [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, have I -- am I interpreting this

 5     statement correctly when we speak of the Croats who had lived in the

 6     territory of the so-called Serbian Krajina and that when they returned to

 7     their own homes, they actually took things from deserted Serbian homes in

 8     order to be able to live a normal life, daily life at that time?  Would

 9     you agree with me?

10        A.   No, I cannot fully agree because I said is only that some of the

11     people who we talked with them told us that they come back, but they

12     didn't say that they took anything from deserted Serbian homes because I

13     just that -- this was my house before so I just come back to my house,

14     but I didn't mention any details what they have took or if they have took

15     something that have been property to the Serbian population before.

16             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we please

17     have P68 on the screen, please?  This is a summary of daily sitreps for

18     the period between the 4th of September to 4th of October, 1995.

19        Q.   And while we wait for this to come up on the screens, I would

20     like to show you the portion on page 861 which states the following:

21             "On 12 September, an UNMO patrol in Mukinje ran into 6 men who

22     lived in the village.  Three of those men said that during the offensive,

23     the first to come to the village were soldiers, Muslims, who looted

24     everything."

25             Do you have information about such instances, especially in the

Page 4728

 1     border regions between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia

 2     that civilians came from Bosnia across the border and looted the houses

 3     and villages in the area?

 4        A.   No, I don't have.

 5        Q.   Alongside with soldiers?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   In these same documents, there is the following:

 8             "On the 9th, it was observed in Donji Lapac that soldiers bearing

 9     BH insignia were helping the refugees from Bihac and loading on to trucks

10     with Bihac or Bosnia-Herzegovina plates to load cattle or other household

11     appliances that were left behind by Krajina Serbs."

12             Were you aware of the situation?

13        A.   No, I was not in Donji Lapac.  Of course I also meant sometimes

14     that the looters tried to -- to steal the cattle and I remember one case

15     when they tried to put a calf on the back of a Yugo car, I mean that

16     looks very funny, and I'm sure the car needed a cleaning afterwards.

17        Q.   Very well.  Thank you for your reply.  Mr. Marti, were you

18     familiar with the evacuation plans put together by the authorities of the

19     Republic of Serbian Krajina and their implementation?  I would like to

20     refer you here to the situation where you had columns of people leaving

21     the area of the Republic of Serbian Krajina after the Operation Storm

22     began?

23        A.   I was not informed about the details about this plan.  The only

24     thing I was involved was when we had to collect these people, mainly in

25     the Plavno valley and Podinarje area for the evacuation after Operation

Page 4729

 1     Storm.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, in your last question, you link plans

 3     of evacuation and columns on roads you shouldn't mix that up in your

 4     question, of course you can ask the witness whether he knows anything

 5     about plans, we can ask him whether he has seen anything, we can even ask

 6     him or draw ourselves conclusions as to what he saw was consistent, what

 7     he knows about the plans, but try to keep matters clear and not to link

 8     matters where the witness might not -- here there was no risk or at least

 9     it didn't appear to be the case, but there's always a risk that witnesses

10     are confused by these composite questions and then we'll have to ...

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you.  [Interpretation]  Mr. Registrar,

13     could we have document 65 ter 005008 on the screens.  This is a summary

14     of daily situation reports between the 7th of the August up until the 8th

15     of September 1995 which was in a certain sense authorised by Mr. Marti.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Authenticated - interpreter correction - by

17     Mr. Marti.

18             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Marti, in the upper portion of the document that we cannot

20     see anymore, could the Registrar please scroll down a bit, in the upper

21     portion of the document, we can see PM and circled and written by hand.

22     Are these your initials?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   You don't remember.  To clarify this for the Trial Chamber, this

25     is a document that is, I assume, identical to Exhibit P68 which was

Page 4730

 1     introduced with Witness Kari Anttila and signed by him.  However, I refer

 2     to some portions of this document which are completely different both in

 3     the pagination and also in the paragraph numbering when compared to the

 4     document of Kari Anttila and in my future, I hope, brief questioning, I

 5     will use this document although there may be some confusion because they

 6     appear to be very similar but I am afraid that there are some differences

 7     because the pages do not correspond and we received this document as an

 8     annex to the document that the Prosecution used during the -- their

 9     direct examination.  This is just for clarification purposes?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, you earlier said that this document

11     was in a certain sense authorised by Mr. Marti or authenticated.  What

12     was the basis for this.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  The initials PM in the upper right-hand corner.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  I thought that was kind of an authorisation by

16     the witness, Mr. Peter Marti.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So what you should have done is to refrain

18     from telling what the case was and ask the witness which you did after

19     that and then he said that he didn't.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  Didn't.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] On page 118 of this document, I will quote a

24     section, the first one which refers to evacuation:

25             [In English] "At Sekanivrsak, we were informed that 71.200

Page 4731

 1     refugees had used the checkpoint towards Banja Luka.  Most of them had

 2     come from Knin.  On the way to that checkpoint, UNMOs observed a lot of

 3     damaged trucks, cars, tractors and some goods abandoned along the road.

 4     Some cars were smashed by tanks.  UNMO asked the commander if he had seen

 5     acts against civilians or RSK soldiers and were told this was not

 6     possible because all the locals left before HV troops arrived.  We also

 7     were informed that on the evening of 6 August, the RSK attacked that

 8     platoon and took some materials and fuel and they were using a UN APC

 9     with a Red Cross symbol."

10             [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, are you familiar with this event?  Do

11     you have any knowledge of it?

12        A.   No, I don't have any knowledge of this event because it was not

13     observed from my team.

14             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I submit this

15     portion of the report, 65 ter 0508 for admission into evidence with one

16     reservation that it is possible that it has already been introduced as

17     part of Exhibit P65; and I think this is something I need to clear up

18     with my colleague from the Prosecution and with the Registrar, but I

19     would like to propose that it be entered into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

21             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, perhaps if there are indeed differences between

22     P68 and this document, we don't object maybe that specific page to enter

23     as an exhibit and it's indeed correct that the witness has discussed this

24     Exhibit 0508 in his witness statement which is now P417 at paragraphs 65

25     and 66.

Page 4732

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So it was this copy that he ...

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you very much, Mr. Waespi.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there are no objections, you want to tender

 4     only this portion, Mr. Mikulicic or the whole of the document?

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, there will be another few parts of

 6     that document that I will be referring to in further conversation, then

 7     maybe afterwards we could -- you could ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it's easier since you are talking about

 9     differences in page numbering and what appears on the cover page because

10     the witness answered questions about that as well that ...

11             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  I have --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That we receive it in evidence in it's entirety.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.  I was just informed by Mr. Kehoe that in

14     P68, the paragraph that I'm referring to is on page 830, I'm referring to

15     the ERN numbers.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you are referring to the ERN numbers.  You did

17     that before when you referred to page 118.

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  The different ERN numbers in that document as

19     well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I think if we refer to pages, the protocol

21     is that we refer to the pages within the document as uploaded in e-court

22     and that would be the fifth page out of 35 for this document.

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number to this?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D391.

Page 4733

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D391 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

 2     Mr. Mikulicic.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And looking at the clock, I notice that you have 7

 5     minutes left.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you for reminding me.  I will do my best.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, in this same document, we can find

 8     under the entry for the 28th of August, an event that relates to

 9     something that happened in the village Musica Stanovi.  This Trial

10     Chamber has already had occasion to hear that in this village, former

11     soldiers of the army of Serbian Krajina were found, to be more precise,

12     ten of them, and with the assistance of the special police, these

13     soldiers were taken to Knin.

14             Do you have any personal knowledge about this event, Mr. Marti?

15        A.   Yes, I have some knowledge because the day before, me and

16     Alex Tchernetsky and me conducted a patrol, we wanted to proceed in this

17     area where this village is in Podinarje and -- but then we saw that

18     special -- by that time, we didn't know who was it but special unit was

19     conducting a kind of investigation in the area, we saw many armed people

20     going forwards to Podinarje area and then the next day, we conducted

21     another patrol specially to this area but me, myself, was not on this

22     patrol because I tasked Alex to do that patrol because me, I went in

23     another direction.  And in the evening, Alex and the other team member

24     told me about the case what has happened, that means that this man wanted

25     to be handed out to the Croatian authorities.

Page 4734

 1        Q.   Are you familiar with the fact that when the special police

 2     arrived in the village, these former soldiers of the army of the Serbian

 3     Krajina surrendered to the special police with no weapons on them and at

 4     the same time, the Croatian police, special police found in the vicinity

 5     of this village, they found some weapons, a rifle and 6 AK-47 rifles,

 6     automatic rifles?

 7        A.   No, I'm not aware of these details but I remember after that

 8     case, there was one man and handed over, he said he's still afraid he has

 9     hidden somewhere a gun and he handed over this weapon to Alex but that

10     was a single case.  That was not during this case but he was afraid, he

11     didn't want to -- that somebody else found this gun and he handed over

12     this gun to Alex.

13             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  In order

14     to use the remaining time efficiently, I propose that pages 21 and 22

15     which refer to this event be introduced -- be tendered into evidence.

16     These are pages from the document 65 ter 00508.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, no objections?

18             Mr. Mikulicic, we admitted the whole of it but if there is any

19     specific reason why you want to have these two pages in addition to that.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  No, that's fine.  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Now, to return to Exhibit P68 on page 36 of this exhibit, I will

24     read a portion of this document:

25             [In English] " ... info received," [Interpretation] this is an

Page 4735

 1     entry dated the 13th of September [In English] "Info received on 8 Serb

 2     soldiers who surrendered, the individuals are spread amongst the county

 3     court in Split and Zadar awaiting investigations."

 4             [Interpretation] Are you aware of this event of the 13th of

 5     September when eight soldiers surrendered, soldiers of the former army of

 6     the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

 7        A.   They surrendered where?

 8        Q.   [In English] It is written only "surrendered."  [Interpretation]

 9     So I don't know where they surrendered.  I was just asking you whether

10     you knew about this event?

11        A.   No, I only know about the surrendering in Podkonje.

12        Q.   That was on the 28th of August and this was on the 13th of

13     September?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.  That's what the witness tells

15     us.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That he only knows about the other occasion.  Please

18     proceed.

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Let us proceed a bit more quickly.  Are you

21     aware, Mr. Marti, of the fact that Croatian authorities, and I mean the

22     civilian and special police and the army, instances where they assisted

23     the local population which remained in their villages after Operation

24     Storm?

25        A.   Not very much.  The only thing I note is that after a while, they

Page 4736

 1     established this system that everybody should get a new Croatian ID card

 2     and UN was helping to collect the remaining former Serb population and

 3     bringing them either to Knin or to Gracac to collect this ID card.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, I'm looking at the clock.

 5             Mr. Waespi, at this moment, would you need 14 minutes or could

 6     you do it in 12?

 7             MR. WAESPI:  I do my best whatever time I have.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the same is for you, one last question,

 9     Mr. Mikulicic.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I will end up by tendering the

11     three incepts of this report from daily sitreps from 4 September until

12     4th October, and that is the examples of Croatian authorities to help the

13     Serb population remaining on their villages after Operation Storm, and I

14     am referring to page 35 of that document where it is said that:

15             "UNMO patrol met an old lady in Donji Lapac who returned to her

16     house on 10th September.  And she states local police has given her

17     enough food and water supply as required.  The police will fix the

18     electricity in her house on 13th September.  She also informed UNMOs that

19     she has no problems with local police or Croatian army and she would like

20     to stay in Donji Lapac."

21             The other example is from the very same document, on page 28

22     where it is said, "UNMO patrol observed 8 Serbs in Mala Popina, all are

23     in good condition of health and were being helped with some food from two

24     officers of a special police unit."  And to that purpose I am only

25     referring to the example which is written on page 34 in Selo Glogovo

Page 4737

 1     where it says that on 8 September visited the village Glogovo and

 2     provided food to Serbian civilians.  Ten minutes after the patrol, a

 3     Croatian police patrol arrived and also provided the people with food

 4     which they stated they would be doing every second day."

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  These are portions of the document that has been

 6     admitted what specific portions you would like to try and conclude.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  And that concludes my examination.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cayley, same as it was before.

 9             MR. CAYLEY:  It's the same position, Your Honour.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Waespi.

12             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  In fact, Mr. Cayley

13     accedes the time he doesn't use to me.

14             If Exhibit P419 could be please be brought up.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Waespi:

16        Q.   Mr. Marti, I would like to raise just a few issues in

17     re-examination.  The first one relates back to the incidents of shelling

18     on the 30th of July, 1995, and you marked yesterday the area B where you

19     said the impact of the shells could be felt by you personally.  Now, this

20     morning you were asked by Mr. Kehoe about facilities partially military,

21     partially MUP.

22             Now, can you locate on this map where, if you can, you thought

23     these facilities were located?  And later mark it with letter E.

24        A.   It must be on the right side of the street but I don't -- I'm not

25     sure if this map shows all the area.  I would say here.  I mean on the

Page 4738

 1     right side of the street so ...

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have a protocol in this Tribunal -- in

 4     this Trial Chamber that markings in blue are markings made at the request

 5     of the Defence and markings in red are made at the request of the

 6     Prosecution.  So could we try to get -- which might not be easy because

 7     the blue is overlapping the -- oh, yes, the original remains.  Could we

 8     now make this marking again but now in red, please.

 9             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it also moves a bit at the same time with the

11     colour.  Now, in order to avoid whatever confusion, the question mark was

12     for the little circle and not for the larger one which is marked by an E,

13     capital E.

14             Mr. Waespi, any further marking needed?

15             MR. WAESPI:  No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Registrar, the now again marked map on top

17     of the earlier marking will be ...

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P427, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  May I can take it there is no objection against

20     P427?  Then P427 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

21             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Now witness I think you also testified that there were I think

23     five or six shells impacted in the area D; is that correct?

24        A.   Near the building as a shelter.  We didn't know when the fire

25     would stop so we just had to count.

Page 4739

 1        Q.   Thank you.  At that time and given your experience in artillery

 2     on mortar, did you form an impression as to what the purpose was of these

 3     five to six shells?

 4        A.   No, actually I -- according to my experience, I couldn't imagine

 5     that with such a procedure, you try to hit any military target.  I mean

 6     if you are conducting artillery shelling, you have somewhere you have

 7     artillery observer, he tells you -- he tells the artillery unit exactly

 8     where they have to shoot and at least -- I mean in my experience as a

 9     mortar commander after the third shot, you should hit the target and not

10     just shelling in different places.  So me, I couldn't imagine by that

11     time that that is a shelling exactly guided on a military target.  And by

12     the way, you still have to also to deal with what is around the military

13     target.  Of course nowadays, it's just called collateral damages, but

14     that can also -- always means that this collateral damages are civilians.

15        Q.   Let's move on to the next issue.  You were quoted this morning by

16     Mr. Kehoe at page 34 from Colonel Hjertnes who said that there had been

17     difficult time for some of the UNMOs to objectively assessing the

18     shelling.

19             In your personal opinion, were you one of the UNMOs who had

20     difficulties because they were emotionally affected by the shelling in

21     assessing the impact of the shelling?

22        A.   I mean of course you are emotionally affected when the shelling

23     is so close to you then you think is there an artillery observer and if

24     he is observing, doesn't he see that there is a UN patrol on the way?  So

25     that -- that was of course it can cause a lot of emotions when you are --

Page 4740

 1     when you feel that you are near an artillery fire or almost under fire

 2     yourself.

 3        Q.   Did it affect your judgement in assessing the -- what you said

 4     shelling of civilian targets in Knin?

 5        A.   My assessment about the shelling in Knin was that apart from this

 6     as I have learned today, this HQ in Knin, that there was not a real

 7     military target which you have to attack with artillery.  I think I have

 8     mentioned it before.  I mean to attack something with artillery, that

 9     means you must have a very large target and as a military commander, I

10     think you should also be quite sure that you don't hit anything which

11     doesn't belong to the target.

12        Q.   Turning to the issue of the perpetrators, the identity of the

13     perpetrators, at page 43, you were asked about the difficulty to identify

14     these perpetrators.  Now, would it be easier for the military police and

15     other law enforcement agencies, normal police, to identify perpetrators?

16        A.   I'm sure --

17             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour, with all due respect, I don't

18     think he with speak for the military police, it would be easier for the

19     military police or the civilian police.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, the witness has clearly expressed where

21     his points of doubt were.  He has done that even not once, but even twice

22     in his statement and then later asked the same questions again.

23             Now, to see whether others would have had it easier to do the

24     same thing might not be within the factual knowledge of this witness.  So

25     therefore, if there's any factual elements you can ask him but not this

Page 4741

 1     kind of opinion or judgement.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Now, you testified that you expected the Croatian authorities to

 5     do more than what they did on the ground and there was also a question

 6     put to you about orders that might have been issued from Zagreb.  Now,

 7     please tell the Court again what expectations you had at that time that

 8     the Croatian authorities should have done to control these perpetrators.

 9        A.   My expectation were that on the main crossing points, they should

10     have -- they should by that time establish checkpoints.  They should

11     control who is coming in from -- through Drnis or from Vrlika or

12     whatever, into the region and who is going back with which items took

13     from the area.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, I think the witness told us already

15     before the same thing.  Please proceed.

16             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you.  No further questions, Mr. President.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Bench has no further questions.  Has the

19     re-examination triggered any need for further questions?

20             MR. KEHOE:  One question, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One question, Mr. Kehoe.

22                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

23        Q.   With regard to the shelling at Strmica, you noted at in P417

24     paragraph 28 with regard to the shelling, you noted that "there was a

25     Serbian checkpoint nearby but I can't say what the target was meant to

Page 4742

 1     be."  Is that accurate you don't know what the target was meant to be

 2     that was shot it, do you?  If you can look at your statement, P417

 3     paragraph 28?

 4        A.   In my opinion, the checkpoint is not a target for artillery

 5     shelling.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Marti, this concludes your evidence in this

 8     court.  I would like to thank you very much for having answered many,

 9     many questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench and if I would

10     use your own language which I will now do, [German spoken].

11             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I just wished the witness a safe trip home again

13     which might not have come as a surprise to you.

14             We adjourn until tomorrow, the 11th of June, 9.00 in the morning,

15     Courtroom III and Mr. Waespi, the Chamber fears that on Thursday, we'll

16     have no witness and of course if the Chamber allots time to the

17     Prosecution to present evidence, and if then days are not used, then

18     we'll have to consider what the consequences are for the time allocated

19     to the Prosecution because the time is there although no evidence.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Yes, we'll look into

21     that.  We, as you know, still have two witnesses and -- but we -- yes,

22     indeed, anticipate that these will be two rather short witnesses and

23     we'll endeavour, perhaps, to find an additional witness.

24             Mr. Steenbergen is unfortunately unavailable to come already this

25     week.  That's one attempt we made.  And we'll continue doing that.

Page 4743

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  We stand adjourned until tomorrow

 2     morning, 9.00.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.

 4                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th of June,

 5                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.