1 Tuesday, 10 June 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Ante Gotovina et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Before we continue, Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Waespi, were you able to find
12 a solution for P425 marked for identification?
13 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, we are and I will tell you the
14 confusion came from it being Gracac as opposed to -- the town and the
15 village, the village is in the Split
16 and there was some confusion there; but I do believe that we have
17 mutually resolved it and the objections on that score, well we have no
18 objections at this point.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I take it that where the other parties
20 joined the objection, they also now join in the withdrawal. Then P425 is
21 admitted into evidence. I hardly dare to say about the village and the
22 town but that's clear. We know where the village is we know where the
23 town is.
24 Let's proceed but not, Mr. Marti, after I have reminded you that
25 you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
1 beginning of your testimony, that is that you will speak the truth, the
2 whole truth and nothing but the truth.
3 Mr. Kehoe I think at the end of this session, I'll come back to
4 you about timing, et cetera, but please first continue your
6 WITNESS: PETER MARTI [Resumed]
7 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe: Continued
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Marti and yesterday we were talking about
11 Your Honour, if I could just briefly turn it to private session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We turn it to private session.
13 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
8 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Marti, were you aware that there was a weapons depot for the
10 ARSK in Golubic?
11 A. No, I was not clearly aware. I just heard the rumours from other
12 UNMO that there must be something but me, myself, I didn't see anything
13 and I mean for me it looks quite funny, I mean you have a church and then
14 you cover the church with camouflage, but I mean it's still a church so
15 what should be the meaning of cover a church with camouflage. So for me,
16 I didn't actually understand it and I haven't seen anything in Golubic
17 former to Operation Storm.
18 Q. In addition to the church, were you aware of a separate weapons
19 depot for the ARSK in Golubic?
20 A. No, I didn't see it by my eyes there before Operation Oluja.
21 Q. Did you hear about it from other UNMOs that there was an
22 ammunitions depot for the ARSK in Golubic?
23 A. There was some discussions. There might be or they suppose that
24 there is something because before Operation Oluja we didn't have access
25 to all the areas in our zone of where we had to report.
1 Q. So let's talk about Golubic, are you saying that the ARSK did not
2 let you examine military facilities in Golubic?
3 A. It was not only Golubic, it was also, for example, Plavno valley
4 we didn't have access before Operation Oluja to Plavno valley as well as
5 directly to Golubic, for example, to see what is in this church which is
6 covered in camouflage.
7 Q. That was because the ARSK would not let you; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Let me show you an excerpt of a document if I may so we can get
10 these numbers correct, we are going to distribute paper copies of this,
11 Judge, and this is a report dated the 22nd of August, 1995 from
12 General Cervenko, the Chief of Staff of the HV. We will get the whole
13 document translated but for the sake of this discussion, we're interested
14 in this one page which we have translated.
15 If we can put that on the ELMO.
16 Mr. Usher, I'm interested in the second paragraph talking about
17 "Up to now ..."
18 This report notes to follows, "Up to now, it is known that
19 numerous depots contain large amounts of ammunition and other weapons.
20 And the discussion is weapons seized after Operation Storm.
21 "For example, in the Stara Straza depot, there were -- almost 15
22 wagons he is of ammunition which we do not completely dispose of." Do
23 you know where Stara Straza is, Mr. Marti?
24 A. No, I should have looked at my map maybe then I would find it.
25 Q. Okay. We will go up on that map just briefly before we go to
1 this matter on the ELMO, which is D384. This is one of the series of
2 maps that Mr. Misetic used yesterday. And if we can have the English
3 translation there as opposed to the B/C/S translation. You see Knin is
4 down on the lower right-hand corner do you see that, Mr. Marti, and you
5 see that the circle that the Stara Straza barracks are, are you familiar
6 with that location? The red circle on the right-hand side of the page?
7 A. Yes, I can see it on the map.
8 Q. Are you familiar with the ARSK barracks in the Stara Straza area?
9 A. No, I'm not.
10 Q. So I take it based on your answer, you didn't know that they had
11 weapons depot?
12 A. I was not there.
13 Q. Even --
14 A. That's basically what I have to say because as I mentioned
15 already, there were some rumours but me, myself, I was not there to have
16 a look at it.
17 Q. Well, in the discussions with other UNMOs, did you learn that
18 there was a weapons depot in Stara Straza?
19 A. I don't remember this special name Stara Straza.
20 Q. If we can go back to the item on the ELMO. Going down to the
21 next sentence, "In Golubic depot," and I'm talking about the paragraph up
22 to now:
23 "In the Golubic depot in Knin, there is approximately 7.000 tons
24 of ammunition and weapons prepared for arming three brigades. There are
25 various rockets amongst which are type Orcan, Plamen Oganj, large amounts
1 of reserve parts, food, various military equipment and sanitary material.
2 22 KUB rockets, large amounts of various anti-personnel and anti-tank
3 mines and several tons of explosives were seized. The amounts of
4 ammunition and other assets are several times greater than those used
5 during the operation."
6 Now, you noted for us in your witness statement P415 at page 2 --
7 excuse me, P416 page 2 that the ARSK was poorly equipped. Were you aware
8 that they had this much equipment in the Golubic amo dump?
9 A. No, I was not aware but I said poorly equipped because when I
10 remember, for example, a checkpoint, I mean that was the point where we
11 saw the RSK soldiers every day. I mean those checkpoints were very
12 poorly, there was -- for example, the checkpoint between Knin and Drnis,
13 there was a simple -- a camping coach and an old camping coach manned
14 with one man. Even he didn't have -- also on the other checkpoint, they
15 didn't have radio connection with the commanding in Knin, for example, or
16 in Vrlika and for me, this didn't give the impression that they are well
17 equipped, they are well-organised. Even many times I thought but where
18 are the preparations to protect the whole area? I mean when you just
19 pass through the zone of separation, first you pass the Serb checkpoint,
20 then the UN checkpoint then on the other side, the Croatian checkpoint
21 and you can see a very different, for example, how on the Croatian side,
22 their checkpoints were equipped. So that gave me the impression that it
23 must be so well-organised and also sometimes when we were locked on the
24 checkpoint, because they wanted to see a permission or something like
25 that, they couldn't clarify by radio what is the problem. So we had to
1 go back to Knin, get the permission, and come back. So that was my
3 Q. Well, just going back to this particular ammunition depot. As a
4 UN Military Observer, is there some reason why you didn't know about this
5 ammunition depot in Golubic in your role as an UNMO?
6 A. When I came to this Sector South in early -- in middle of June,
7 there were some procedures established where we were allowed to patrol
8 and were not. And for me, it was -- I mean I didn't have personal reason
9 to say to my colleague, come on and let's go to try, for example, to
10 Golubic. I mean it was just normal procedure to Golubic. We are not
11 allowed to go, so we had our daily routes where we patrol. For example,
12 we were allowed up to Strmica but only up to the checkpoint. We were
13 allowed to Otric and we were allowed to go to Drnis.
14 Q. If we can continue on on this page, if we can down just a couple
15 of paragraphs towards the bottom, it's okay, Mr. Usher, we can leave it:
16 "There was likewise a factory in Licki Osik which had numerous
17 items there. 55 tanks, five armoured transporters, 106 various guns,
18 howitzers, et cetera, as well as the last line, 6 MRL type Oganjs.
19 Again, sir, did you patrol the Licki Osik area and were you aware of this
21 A. I cannot see where.
22 Q. It's in the bottom paragraph on the page.
23 A. No, I mean I don't know the area which you have mentioned. Licki
25 Q. You are unaware of that area?
1 A. I don't know this name so, I should figure out on the map where
2 it is.
3 Q. Let's turn our attention from Golubic to Strmica --
4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, at this time we'll offer into
5 evidence this report on Operation Storm. We will provide a full
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
8 MR. WAESPI: I don't object though just an observation. The
9 General signed as in the English translation 4-star General which is a
10 funny way to sign a document and the B/C/S says General Zbora. My B/C/S
11 isn't -- not minimally sufficient but I don't think that means 4 Zbora
12 anyway, the document says what it says; and we perhaps wait until we have
13 a translation of the whole document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No objections. Therefore, Mr. Registrar ...
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D387.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D387 is admitted into evidence. If, however, any of
17 the Defence teams will ask for the complete translation, perhaps they
18 could specifically ask about Zbora I've not no idea.
19 MR. KEHOE: Judge, frankly I have no idea either but we will ask
20 for a full translation.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. Now, with going to Strmica and your trip to Strmica, and just
24 bear with me, Mr. Marti, I'm going to cover some of the subjects that
25 were both in your report as well as what was discussed with Mr. Waespi.
1 Now, you just noted for us there were certain areas that you
2 could not go and you mentioned Strmica being one of them; is that right?
3 A. I mentioned that we were allowed to go on the street up to
4 Strmica, but only up to the checkpoint.
5 Q. So when you said -- so when you talked about a restriction of
6 movement, you could drive up to the checkpoint and no further?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Now, when you were going there on the 30th, you were going there
9 at the request of the ARSK, weren't you?
10 A. Yes. The request came from ARSK through the HQ in Knin to our
12 Q. And you -- just going through your statement, you went and got an
13 ARSK liaison officer and drove up to Strmica?
14 A. That was normally the procedure when we came close to the zone of
16 Q. And this liaison officer was going to be your escort to show you
17 what they wanted you to see; is that right?
18 A. Not precisely. They brought us to the place where it has
19 happened that -- it was easier to found so -- they want to show us what
20 we should see as they did, they brought us at the spot where it has
22 Q. So as you just said, they wanted to show you what you should see,
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, when you went up there --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I'm not sure that's what the witness said.
3 MR. KEHOE: It's on line 13 going into line 14, he said they want
4 to show us what we should see.
5 MR. WAESPI: I think he said on line 12, "They brought us to the
6 place where it has happened."
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. It's clear that the witness had some
8 hesitation to follow the suggestion made by Mr. Kehoe to him which was
9 suggestive to the aspect of just to see what they wanted to he show you
10 or at least bring you to the place where it happened. It's all a rather
11 semantic issue. It's clear that something had happened and that they
12 escorted you to that place not blindfolding you on the way there, not --
13 so therefore let's continue, Mr. Kehoe.
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The matter is clear.
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. Sir, when you got there -- when you were there is when the
18 shelling took place. When you were there, sir, did you see any type
19 of -- well, let me withdraw that question.
20 On your way up there or at any time prior to that, did the ARSK
21 inform you or any of the other UNMOs that on July 30th, 1995, they were
22 preparing an offensive in an around the Strmica area against the HV, did
23 they tell you that?
24 A. No, at least they didn't tell me. Maybe some other UNMO, but I
25 think when that would have happened, I -- our team would have heard it
2 Q. Let me turn to D338. If we could go to the top of the page of
3 D338 which is the 30th.
4 This is the diary of Captain Berikoff. On the 30th of July is
5 the day that you went there; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. "Up at 0700. Another day. Not sure what will happen today. It
8 was quiet last night. Everything happened today. Got tasked to go and
9 spend the night in Strmica with the Kenyans. Very interesting, saw all
10 kinds of equipment on the way there. BMPs, M-12 anti-tank gun, M-84
11 tanks and everything. Shelling started about 1830 and continued for
12 about 1 1/2 hours. Two M-84 tanks crossed border of BH,
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then one came back a couple of hours later. Many
14 ARSK around the area." Excuse me, 11 and a half, that's an hour and a
15 half, I apologise.
16 Did you see any of this equipment in the Strmica area that was
17 observed by Captain Berikoff during this time? On the same day?
18 A. No, I didn't see it on 30th of July because even I -- as I told
19 yesterday, we didn't have -- we didn't go into Strmica because we were
20 shelled and then we turned back.
21 Q. Well, sir, you is say that you were shelled. There was shelling.
22 You don't know what the target of that shelling was, do you?
23 A. No, but it was very close to me.
24 Q. Well, I mean let me go back to your diary, sir. And if you can
25 point to your diary of the 30th of July with the Court's permission.
1 If I may.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: If counsel is looking for D224, that's the excerpt
4 from the 30th of July.
5 MR. KEHOE: I have that.
6 Q. Reading this, sir, of the 30th of July, you noted, and I have to
7 pull it from one of your statements, you noted that in this particular
8 location, that there was a checkpoint nearby, was there not? Was there a
9 checkpoint nearby where the shelling came in?
10 A. The checkpoint was -- I don't remember the distance exactly but
11 as I told yesterday, we were stopped before Strmica and the checkpoint
12 was somewhere inside Strmica.
13 Q. Now, the checkpoint that was in Strmica, how far away from it was
14 where you were stopped?
15 A. Maybe 300 to 500 metres.
16 Q. Now, in that area as you go into Strmica, and if we can go to --
17 if we can go into private session, briefly, Your Honour?
18 JUDGE ORIE: We turn it to private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 4659-4660 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. Mr. Marti, at any time during this particular ride back and
18 forth, and now I'm talking about the ride back with the liaison officer,
19 did the liaison officer ever tell you that the ARSK, on the 30th of July,
20 was engaging in troop movements up from Knin through Strmica to go to the
21 confrontation line outside of Grahovo?
22 A. No, he didn't.
23 Q. Now, this particular visit with the liaison officer that he was
24 going to show you, he was going to show you this shelling to attempt to
25 get pressure by the UN on the HV to stop shelling the Strmica-Grahovo
1 road, wasn't he?
2 A. For us, it seems like there was the normal procedure, there was
3 shelling then they have contact with the liaison officer, then we go on
4 the field and make the crater analysis. So for us it didn't look as this
5 special event should have had special intention.
6 Q. Let's just stay with that for one moment. The shelling was --
7 you were called upon to do the shelling analysis by the ARSK, were you
9 A. Yes, that's where the ...
10 Q. And correct me if I am wrong, but the reason why the ARSK wanted
11 the UN to examine the shelling was to put pressure on the HV to stop
12 shelling the Strmica area; is that correct?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, this question has been asked. This
14 question has been answered almost literally using the same words where
15 the witness explained that it was, for him, it looked to be the normal
16 procedure and nothing special, and he didn't know anything about it,
17 that's what he told you.
18 If you look at page 15, line 16, 17, 18, and 19, then you see
19 that it's almost literally the same.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.
22 If I can have just one moment, Your Honour.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. KEHOE:
25 Q. Let us move to another issue, sir. You talked a little bit
1 yesterday about the shelling of the Cetina area; do you recall that, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, the -- if we can go to a particular item, and if we can go
4 to D219. If we can just blow up the centre of -- yeah, to the left-hand
5 side, yeah.
6 Now, does that area look familiar to you, sir?
7 A. Not yet.
8 Q. Okay. Knin being the -- over to the left-hand side, if you can
9 just pull that up just a little bit. If we can just move it up a little
10 bit, Mr. Usher, up. Can you just scroll up. Scroll down, I guess, is
11 the right word. Down a little bit more. Down more. Just down to the --
12 more just down a bit more. Stop right there, please.
13 Now, sir, this is a working map for the July 1995 area and the
14 area we have depicted here is the Cetina valley area, isn't it?
15 A. I mean the map is very unclear but when you say it, it must be.
16 Q. Well, let's turn to -- you understand -- you see the lake down
17 here. Are you familiar with that area?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you familiar with Vrlika area near -- just nearby the lake?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Let's just go to a -- before we go to this, you are aware that
22 the town of Vrlika
23 Brigade, were you not?
24 A. I was aware that there was an HQ, but I don't remember, as you
25 said, which brigade or battalion or whatever.
1 Q. Did the -- in addition to a brigade headquarters, did the 7th
2 Dalmatian Corps have a forward command post in Vrlika?
3 A. I have not seen a special command post. What I saw in Vrlika was
4 the office or the HQ of 1st Class Captain Popovic.
5 Q. You are familiar that Knin was the headquarters of the 7th
6 Dalmatian Corps is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you know in Vrlika in addition to having a headquarters for
9 the 1st Light Infantry Brigade that there was also a forward command post
10 for the 7th Dalmatian Corps?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
12 MR. WAESPI: Just to make clear what the witness said is at line
13 17 that he was aware that there was an HQ, but he didn't remember whether
14 it was a brigade or battalion or whatever and counsel keeps naming units.
15 That might be in evidence but that's not what the witness said.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, let me just have a look. I think
17 Mr. Kehoe asked for headquarters and a forward command post, two
18 different things. As far as the headquarters are concerned, the witness
19 testified that he was aware of the existence of a headquarters but not
20 what unit it exactly was and then the forward command post, he was then
21 asked about that again in relation to what existed in Knin and that's a
22 different area. It's not exactly the same as the previous questions.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. We can turn our attention --
25 Q. Before I leave this map, Mr. Marti, how far away from the lines
1 of confrontation, approximately, was the Cetina valley?
2 A. I can't see it on the map.
3 Q. Just from your recollection, just an estimate, how far away was
5 A. Without having a look at my map, I just can guess, five, six
6 kilometres maybe.
7 Q. Approximately 5 or 6 kilometres?
8 A. Maybe even more because the map we were using normally was scale
9 1 to 100.000 so it's not so easy.
10 Q. Now, when you had come in June of 1995 and early part of July
11 1995, the HV had just engaged in a series of successful offensives up the
12 Dinara into the Livno valley; isn't that right? Do you know that?
13 A. I don't know that.
14 Q. Let me turn your attention to your diary at -- on the 4th of July
15 and on the 4th of July in your meeting with Captain Popovic, he wanted
16 the UN to put more personnel up on the Dinara, didn't he? With Your
17 Honour's permission if he could just refresh his recollection from his
19 A. According to my diary on the 4th of July --
20 Q. Excuse me, the third of July, I take it back, the 3rd of July, I
22 A. Yes, it was the 3rd of July when we had a meeting in Vrlika with
24 Q. He notes and the translation notes, "In summary he demanded more
25 peacekeepers in the Dinara Mountains
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "Because otherwise Split, Sibenik, Zadar, and Dubrovnik
3 bombarded so that the same thing did not happen to Krajina as happened to
4 Western Slavonia
5 He, at that point, Mr. Marti, was very concerned about the
6 successful offensives that had been conducted by the HV, wasn't he?
7 A. He didn't call us that was an official offensive by the HV. By
8 the way, that area was part of the UN protected zone.
9 Q. Can you explain to me why Julia was sweating while interpreting.
10 You note that Julia broke into a cold sweat while interpreting. What was
11 that about?
12 A. The interpreter, she was very nervous to be together with a
13 commander from so-called her side because she wanted to do the job very
14 well and it was a first time for her that she was as an interpreter
15 inside a meeting with important or high ranking persons from her side.
16 Q. Let me turn you to another map, if I may. Yes. If I may, I'd
17 like you to take a look at 1D30-0005. The area that we have highlighted
18 in red, Mr. Marti, is the area of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade. Are
19 you familiar with the three battalions that were in the 1st Light
20 Infantry Brigade?
21 A. No, I am not.
22 Q. In this particular area, did you know whether the 7th Corps had
23 howitzers assigned to the area of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade?
24 A. No, I didn't know.
25 Q. Based on your military experience, are you familiar with the fact
1 that there is artillery that is assigned on a corps level, artillery that
2 is assigned on a brigade level, and artillery assigned on a battalion
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Based on your testimony, you are unfamiliar of the artillery that
6 was assigned on the corps level; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, on the brigade level at this level, are you familiar with
9 the howitzers and T-88 or T-76s that had been assigned to the 1st Light
10 Infantry Brigade at that level?
11 A. No, I am not.
12 Q. And I take it that you are unfamiliar with their deployment of
13 artillery on a battalion or on a company level?
14 A. That area, I'm not.
15 Q. So are you familiar with how the 1st Light Infantry Brigade
16 deployed their troops in these three battalions?
17 A. [No audible response]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The answer does not appear on the transcript. I
19 think you said you didn't.
20 THE WITNESS: I didn't know anything about these artillery
21 systems in these regions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But the last question was about the deployment of
23 troops. Are you familiar with how the 1st Light Infantry Brigade
24 deployed their troops in these three battalions?
25 THE WITNESS: No, I was not familiar.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Now, you noted for us yesterday that, if I may, and this is on
4 page 4590 line 16 through 18, you said, "We didn't see any military
5 target or military troops or what could have been a target to be shelled
6 by a grenade."
7 Now, sir, an individual testified, Captain Jeff Hill testified
8 that he was in the Strmica -- excuse me, the Cetina valley at the end of
9 July and I'm dealing with 3808 going into 3809. And he observed T-54s,
10 T-72s, APCs, and MP2s as well as 130 metre towed artillery, and I will
11 give you the actual page reference for this but to be specific, it's 3809
12 lines 12 and 13.
13 Now, you didn't observe that weaponry, did you?
14 A. I mentioned yesterday when at that very day, Sunday 9th of July I
15 made crater analysis in this small hamlet near Cetina and by that time,
16 what was I observed was that the house was hit by an artillery grenade,
17 that the people are complaining and what I also observed that around the
18 house and in the near neighbourhood, there was no military target. That
19 this was what I observed.
20 Q. Sir, you cannot tell us -- I'm sorry.
21 Sir, you can't tell us whether or not a tank was rolling past
22 there at the time, can you?
23 A. That very day, I didn't see any tank.
24 Q. No, no. The day that the shell was fired and you were not there,
25 you can't tell us whether or not a tank was rolling past and that shell
1 was aimed a at a tank, can you?
2 A. No, because I came after the shell.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
4 MR. WAESPI: Yes --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, are these not facts of common knowledge?
6 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour --
7 JUDGE ORIE: If I'm not in Amsterdam
8 yesterday if I was not there, of course there is always the theoretical
9 possibility that someone reported to me that there was a shell driving
10 there, but it's --
11 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I may. The obvious implication by
12 the evidence that has been led by the Prosecution is that the HV was
13 firing on a civilian target and using this witness and others to
14 demonstrate that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the obvious implication and not necessarily
16 for this Chamber.
17 MR. KEHOE: And Your Honour, I'm just trying to meet their
18 evidence in the sense that this -- the army had --
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do see your point, but you can draw our
20 attention to that fact without putting questions which are obviously
21 also -- we know the answer in advance and think until something very
22 special happens.
23 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I'm always encouraged by your
24 conclusions, often times trying to meet the Prosecution's evidence, I try
25 to go through the paces so we can get there. I certainly don't want to
1 spend any more time on it than I have.
2 Q. Now, with regard to the harvesting of this particular area, the
3 fact is that General Gotovina ordered that there should be no more
4 shelling to allow the Serbs to harvest; isn't that so? Do you know that?
5 A. No, I -- I don't know that.
6 Q. Let me show you --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask the witness.
8 THE WITNESS: Whenever during my mission, I have never heard the
9 name Gotovina.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, have you any knowledge on the subject of
11 how Mr. Gotovina dealt with complaints about farmers when harvesting
12 apparently were reported to be shelled. Did you have any knowledge of
14 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. You do know, sir, that the harvesting went through. That the
18 harvesting took place.
19 A. The harvest took place, yes.
20 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I can offer this map on the 1st Light
21 Infantry Brigade into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: It would be useful if we could be given the
24 underlying information.
25 MR. KEHOE: Absolutely, Your Honour. The underlying information
1 is seized ARSK documents which we will gladly share with the Prosecutor
2 that lays out the -- or delineates the area of responsibility of the 1st
3 Light Infantry Brigade as well as the units that are under that both at
4 the battalion and the infantry level -- company level, excuse me.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
6 MR. WAESPI: On its face we don't have an objection.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then do the following: You will meet
8 Mr. Kehoe, who will explain to you the further basis on this map and you
9 have an opportunity to revisit the decision of the Chamber within the
10 next 48 hours. I take it there will be sufficient time for such a
11 meeting or exchange of information at least.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D388.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D388, with the proviso as I just expressed is
16 admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
17 MR. KEHOE:
18 Q. Mr. Marti, we're going to shift gears and we're going to move to
19 the 4th of August and talking about the shelling of Knin. Your diary
20 reflects that you were in -- and you also testified that you were in
21 Podkonje at the time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At the shelling. And you likewise went to the basement of your
24 neighbour by the name of Milan
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And during the course of that day, you were sitting in Milan
2 cafe, and I'm referring to your 2007 statement -- excuse me, I'm
3 referring to your diary of the 4th, that you sat in Milan's cafe most of
4 the day and followed the activities on the news.
5 A. I was not in Milan
6 not a special cafe. It was his private compound.
7 Q. Well, I mean if you can turn to your diary for the 4th of August.
8 You note, if we can, we follow the news in Milan's cafe eat goat meat and
9 very dry meat it is, salad, bread, and have beer. Is that accurate?
10 A. Yeah, but it was not a special, a public coffee shop, I mean.
11 Q. But basically you and the other folks in Podkonje just sat out
12 the actual shelling of Knin?
13 A. We saw that there was shellings of Knin and in the morning, the
14 first electricity went off and after a while, also our walkie-talkies run
15 out of electricity so after a while, around lunch, we didn't have any
16 connection with our HQ in Knin and we didn't have any information anymore
17 what's going on.
18 Q. You told us yesterday at page 4634, line 5, "I mean we couldn't
19 see directly from Podkonje to Knin because there was a small hill in
20 between." So you didn't actually see what was being hit during the
21 shelling, did you?
22 A. No, it was impossible to is see from Podkonje directly on Knin.
23 Q. Now, you then, according to your diary, had dinner at 1830; is
24 that right, sir? I think it's the same paragraph you note that in the
25 evening, family of Biljana Dobricevic invites us for -- over for
1 sour-crout, meat, bread and rakija?
2 A. Around 1930.
3 Q. I'm sorry, 1930. Now, sir, now this is now about 7.30 in the
4 evening, but it's actually before that because you said 1930 after about
5 an hour.
6 Now, at 1930, at about 7.30 in the evening you note that at that
7 time, at 7.30, is when people went into a panic and I note your P415,
8 paragraph 3, this is page 2 -- page 2 of statement, paragraph 3. "All of
9 a sudden, the whole village was in a panic." Now, this, sir, was after
10 Biljana came down to say that the HV was going to come into the area;
11 isn't that right?
12 A. Not a panic started and during that panic situation, Biljana came
13 to me and asked for fuel for her cars but it was like -- you know
14 before -- we didn't know what actually is going on. I even remember the
15 people tried to make the mattress ready in the cellar for the children.
16 Nobody was, I mean in my opinion, by that time in this hamlet, Podkonje,
17 nobody was expecting the attack from the HV army but then all of a
18 sudden, it was like somebody has turned a switch. For me, it was amazing
19 like before there was quiet procedure with drinking, eating, I mean we
20 didn't know what's going on but then all of a sudden, something must have
21 happened. They must have got some information or whatever but it was a
22 real full panic. I mean they were very scared and I remember Biljana
23 shouted on me, "Oh, once more, UN cannot help us." Then I tried to, as I
24 have described it, I managed to get fuel for her cars, and we get
25 possibility to went into the Knin HQ of UN.
1 Q. Now, that panic came, according to your diary, at approximately
2 7.30 at night; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, let me show you D137. If we can go just on D137.
5 Now, sir, this is an evacuation order signed by Milan Martic at
6 1645 hours to evacuate and of course this order is before the 1930 panic
7 that you witnessed.
8 Now, just carrying on, Biljana's both father and brother-in-law
9 were in the militia weren't they?
10 A. I don't know that. I cannot confirm that because I didn't have
11 so much contact only contact I had with Biljana was because she was only
12 one in this hamlet who was able to speak English. But I don't know
13 anything about her brother and her father or whatever they did or
14 whatever they were doing.
15 Q. Turned to P416, page 14. This is your 1997 statement. Do you
16 have that, sir? P416, your 1997 statement, page 14. Line 30, the father
17 himself was a militia member in the vicinity of Strmica. Line 33, the
18 husband and the daughter were -- the husband of the daughter was in the
20 A. No, no that are not the same people. These are the people who
21 was rent our -- the accommodation in Podkonje, but not the brother and
22 father of Biljana who was in the hamlet in Podkonje.
23 Q. I understand. Thank you for the clarification. It's not clear
24 from your 1997 statement but in any event, these two individuals, you
25 were going to get fuel for them for this family to leave; is that right?
1 A. In Podkonje.
2 Q. Right?
3 A. But these are not the people mentioned here. Here are the people
4 who are mentioned who has rented the houses in -- they had two houses,
5 one in Knin and one in Podkonje and they have rent the house in Podkonje
6 to the UNMOs but that has nothing to do with the family of Biljana
7 which -- whom I helped to get fuel for evacuation.
8 Q. Now, these two individuals that you rented from that were the
9 father and the brother-in-law that were in the militia --
10 A. In -- mentioned here.
11 Q. Yes. Those are the ones you got fuel for; correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Who did you get fuel for?
14 A. I got fuel for the people -- for the neighbours people in
15 Podkonje. You know, there was a small hamlet and in one house, the UNMOs
16 lived and around these houses were some other family. One was the family
17 of Milan
18 has nothing to do with the family who rent our house because that family
19 was established in Knin.
20 Q. Now --
21 A. And I got the fuel for the family neighbouring family in Podkonje
22 not for our landlord's family.
23 Q. Now, if you turn to page 15 of this document, and you go to line
24 2. And you say, "She even over looked at her father forehandedly stowed
25 two jerry cans of petrol in the car." Who was that?
1 A. That was the family in Knin in -- who managed to escape to
3 was our landlord's family and the father was in the militia so the father
4 was not with the family together but that's what they told me after when
5 I met the family, I managed to find the family when they have escaped in
6 March 1996
7 family, so when the shelling started in the morning, the daughter was too
8 nervous to drive the car, even her father have prepared the car for
9 evacuation but he she couldn't manage to start the car. But that has
10 nothing to do with the situation how it was in Podkonje by that -- on
11 that day.
12 Q. Just going back to what you just said, the father did prepare
13 this car for evacuation, didn't he?
14 A. Yes, but that was in Knin, not in Podkonje.
15 Q. And as part of this evacuation, you also told -- one of the women
16 told you that she got on a bus to leave the area as well; do you recall
18 A. But that was from the family in Knin.
19 Q. I understand.
20 A. Not the people in Podkonje.
21 Q. So buses were organised to evacuate the population?
22 A. I don't know if that was an organised bus or whatever.
23 Q. But she told you that she took a bus?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Now, you also note that on line 6 of page 15, that, "Chance
1 brought it about that both mother and daughter met both husband and
2 son-in-law, the young husband of the daughter in Banja Luka."
3 A. Yeah, that is what he they told me in March in Belgrade. They
4 were met themselves together in Banja Luka, just by the accident.
5 Q. Was it by accident that they met or was it by accident that they
6 went to Banja Luka?
7 A. It was -- as they told me, it was by accident that they met in
8 Banja Luka.
9 Q. Yeah. But you realise that the plan of the RSK was to go to
10 Banja Luka, do you not?
11 A. I don't know that that was a plan of the RSK to go to Banja Luka
12 Q. Let me show you D182, just very briefly. If we can just blow up
13 the centre of "the RSK authorities." This notes, sir, this is although
14 the date is wrong, it's the 4th of August, we all agree, and this sets
15 out on the 4th of August that the actual plan was to go to Banja Luka
16 You are not a ware of that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Let's shift subjects if we can and go to the actual shelling
19 itself. And you noted for us again on page 4634 that you didn't see most
20 of the shelling. And in your 2007 statement, on page 35, and if I can
21 get the right date for this, this is paragraph -- paragraph 35 which is
22 page 6. You noted for us that when you were on your way -- page 6 of the
23 top paragraph on paragraph 35, that when you were on your way to the UN
24 compound the evening of the 4th, you didn't remember any shelling at that
25 time; is that right?
1 A. That was right but I mean you have also to understand the
2 situation in which we were. I mean we tried to have evacuate ourself and
3 there was really a big panic and I -- even when I -- even if there would
4 have been some shelling again, I mean you could -- you don't hear it but
5 what I remember was another shelling is Saturday morning on the 5th of
7 Q. Now, with regard to the actual destruction of Knin and caused by
8 the shelling, you noted for us on P415 in the fifth paragraph, second
9 from the bottom on page two, "My area of responsibility was outside Knin
10 so I can't give you any exact statements about the destruction of the
11 city." That's right, isn't it? Do you want to review your statement,
12 sir, it's P415?
13 A. No, it's correct.
14 Q. So you can't give us any statements about the destruction, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you noted yesterday during the course of your testimony
17 about the actual targeting and -- this is a reference back to your prior
18 testimony, I do believe that Mr. Waespi read. Paragraph 10, page 17 of
19 Exhibit 417. When you were talking about the shelling of Knin, you note
20 that, "There was no military target. The only thing which might have
21 been there was a camp close to the UN camp. A place where a few tanks
22 and a repair depot were located but it was so close to the UN camp that
23 its targeting would have been useless."
24 Do you recall saying?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, the premise that you have about the shelling of Knin being a
2 violation of the law is based on your conclusion that there was no
3 military targets in Knin other than the base that was next to the UN; is
4 that not correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Let me -- I'm sorry. Let me turn our attention to 1D17-0201.
7 This is, Mr. Marti, an ARSK intelligence department General Staff report
8 signed by a Colonel Mihajlo Knezevic, and I asked you to take a look
9 at -- if we can blow up that fourth paragraph. It notes:
10 "Knin was attacked by Livanjsko Polje from several directions and
11 by the time this information was drafted between 200 and 300 rounds of
12 different calibres impacted on the town. The first strike was carried
13 out on the building of the SVK General Staff." Now, that's a military
14 target, isn't it, Mr. Marti?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, the witness has told us that he was not
16 aware, when he made his assessment of military targets. Of course the
17 Chamber has received evidence which at least strongly suggests that there
18 were quite a number of military targets.
19 Now, to go through all of them and then ask the witness whether
20 he would consider that a military target, where his assessment apparently
21 is based on the assumption that there is no military targets is not of
22 great use.
23 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We are not seeking the judgement and we are not here
25 to educate the witness, but we are here to hear what he can tell us and
1 then of course we will evaluate any flaws or any strong points in it.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE: The rest of this paragraph and then I'll offer it,
4 Your Honour. Which -- I'll just offer this document into evidence, Your
5 Honour. 1D17-0201.
6 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D389, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D389 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
10 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
11 Q. And just going into the provisional assessment. In your 2007
12 statement, you said you were unaware of the provisional assessment that
13 was signed by Mr. Hjertnes, is that right, concerning the shelling of
14 Knin? I turn your attention to your 2007 statement 417.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: That's paragraph 59.
17 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much. 59.
18 Q. Do you see that, sir?
19 A. No.
20 Q. On paragraph 59 of your 2007 statement, you note that you were --
21 A. I have been shown a report ...
22 Q. But you hadn't seen it prior to that? I note that you were on
23 leave between the 14th and the 22nd?
24 A. I didn't see these paper before.
25 Q. During this time, when Colonel Hjertnes come back, did he express
1 to you at any point that he had concluded that people who had lived
2 through the shelling in Knin on the 4th and 5th had a difficult time
3 objectively analysing the shelling? Did he ever tell you that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. It was a fact that the people that were there during the time
6 were given CTO leave; isn't that right?
7 A. You mean who -- who?
8 Q. The UNMOs that were present in the Knin area on the 4th and 5th
9 were given compensatory time off, weren't they?
10 A. Yeah, but that was one day.
11 Q. Okay. Were others given --
12 A. I mean in my team, that was one day when we were allowed to go to
14 Q. Were others given more time off?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. But you yourself were gone front 14th to the 22nd?
17 A. Yeah, but that was the normal leave in the posting. I mean
18 after -- the normal procedure was that you have to stay 30 days on the
19 job and then you have five days off. And because I was -- I'm still
20 living in Switzerland
21 home but normally, some other UNMOs like from Russia, Bangladesh
22 cetera, they just spend their leave in Zagreb.
23 Q. Now, sir, you noted that you had not seen the provisional
24 assessment. Had you seen an assessment by CIVPOL which basically said
25 the same thing as the provisional assessment that this shelling was
1 directed towards military targets? Did you see that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let me continue on to another subject, sir. This has to do with
4 your comment again, I believe Mr. Waespi read on 417, page 17 paragraph
5 110 at the bottom of that page, talking about the withdrawal of the
6 Serbs, you note on the fifth line from the bottom of that paragraph, "And
7 they also fired on the refugees."
8 Now, you never saw the HV firing on refugees, did you?
9 A. No, because during the Operation Storm, we were not allowed to
10 leave the UN camp in Knin.
11 Q. Now, sir, were you familiar with the fact that as the Serbs were
12 withdrawing, they were firing back on the advancing HV?
13 A. No, I'm not.
14 Q. Well, let me read you a statement -- by the way you, are you
15 familiar with the concept of fighting withdrawal?
16 A. Yes, but not mixed with refugees.
17 Q. Well, if the Serb -- if the RSK was in this refugee column and
18 firing back at the HV, that would be a fighting withdrawal, wouldn't it?
19 A. Hmm, yes.
20 Q. This is a -- this statement of Mr. Hill on page 3854, line 17:
21 "Captain, you noted for us that as you went up these roads, you
22 saw and followed the path of the Serbs who evacuated. You saw tanks and
23 other items, right?
24 Answer: "Yes."
25 Question: "And when you, and I don't have the transcript but
1 then you mentioned something about fighting and moving."
2 Answer "Yes."
3 Question: "Can you just explain that manoeuvre just a bit."
4 Answer: "Starting at the intersection with Otric, there was a
5 huge ammunition dump for lack of a better item in a field crates six or
6 seven feet high."
7 Going down to line 7 on 3855: "So it appears as if the Serbs as
8 they were going back, they were falling on to the ammunition using the
9 ammunition to fire, to fight and to continue back as the Croats were
10 pushing them."
11 Question: "And now you likewise observed tanks, Serb tanks and
12 that had been abandoned and then were then pointed back on the road."
13 Answer: "Yes."
14 Question: "Did that indicate to you that they were fighting
15 oncoming troops?"
16 Answer: "Their muzzles were" -- sorry, "their muzzles were
17 pointed towards the Serbs were advancing." Correction -- Judge Orie
18 intervenes with a correction and the witness says, "the muzzles of the
19 Serb tanks were pointed back down in the direction the Croats were
21 Now, that type of fighting withdrawal was consistent with what
22 you observed on the road as you came up the road from Otric going north,
23 wasn't it?
24 A. No, I have no observation on the road from up -- from Otric up
25 going north. What I mentioned was on the street leaving Knin, after the
1 Operation Oluja when we were allowed to go on patrol again, I saw on one
2 side, I saw on the one hand, I saw craters in the street, artillery
3 craters. And what I saw on the street side were civilian cars which were
4 no more able to move that were civilian clothes, furnitures and also dead
5 animals. That is what I stated. But I didn't saw tanks or howitzer or
6 whatever. That was my statement.
7 Q. And with regard to the craters, you don't know when those were
8 fired or who fired them, do you?
9 A. At least they were -- the craters were not on the street before
10 Operation Oluja.
11 Q. During Operation Oluja, you don't know who fired them?
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question in this respect. When
14 looking at the craters, could you determine whether the fire was from
15 south to north or from north to south on the basis of the shape of the
16 impact? Did you pay any attention to that?
17 THE WITNESS: No, we didn't pay much attention on that because we
18 didn't make special crater analysis from these craters on the street. We
19 just saw that there were artillery impacts on the street. But we didn't
20 analyse it from which direction.
21 JUDGE ORIE: A crater analysis requires quite a lot of things and
22 so you didn't even in a very limited way analyse the craters so as to --
23 okay, please proceed.
24 MR. KEHOE:
25 Q. Now if we can just shift subjects if we can to the writing on the
1 house of -- this is a Croatian house?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, it's 10.30 and you are entering a new
3 subject. I suggest that we first is have a break.
4 Before we have a break, I would like to ask Mr. Usher, we'll have
5 a break for approximately a half an hour, Mr. Marti.
6 Could you please follow the usher.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: As far as time is concerned, Mr. Kehoe, could you
9 give us an indication?
10 MR. KEHOE: I will finish, Your Honour, no later than the end of
11 the next session and possibly before that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mikulicic.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: I could estimate one hour of cross-examination,
14 Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cayley.
16 MR. CAYLEY: We have no questions for this witness, Your Honour,
17 thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That means that we'll be able to conclude the
19 testimony of this witness today unless, Mr. Waespi, you will have long
21 MR. WAESPI: I don't anticipate that, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. WAESPI: So far, ten minutes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break and we resume at 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Marti, in your 1997 statement, P416 at page 10, line 18 and
5 19, you noted that your neighbour wrote "Croatian house" with big letters
6 on the house. Do you recall that, sir?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And who was this person who did this?
9 A. That was a Croatian female who came back from I don't know where
10 and she overtook this house, it was just on the back yard of the house
11 where we were living and she wrote "Croatian house" on it, just to be
12 sure not to be looted or attacked also.
13 Q. Was she an older lady, younger lady?
14 A. She was quite young, about 30 years.
15 Q. But a civilian?
16 A. Civilian, yes.
17 Q. And you noted for us in the same page at line 16, that writing
18 "Croatian house" was not always a guarantee that the house would remain
19 untouched. Was that your experience?
20 A. Yes, it happened that even houses were touched or partly damaged
21 which at the signal before Croatian property or whatever.
22 Q. Sometimes it just didn't make a difference?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let me just show you P123?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps when it's shown on the screen, Mr. Kehoe,
1 could the witness explain what he exactly meant by "she overtook this
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. That would be on line 19 and 20, Mr. Marti.
5 A. That means the house was abandoned after Operation Oluja, and she
6 came and just came in and thought that was her former property or the
7 property of some relatives of her or something like that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is so with a claim that the property belonged to
9 relatives for her she took after the house was abandoned.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. Please proceed.
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. Had she been a refugee prior to Oluja?
13 A. That I don't know.
14 Q. Okay. Let me show you P123. That is sitrep of August 19th,
15 1995. And Mr. Usher, if we could go in -- bear with me one moment, I'll
16 get you the exact page. About four pages in, please to the E. That's
17 it. And under the E, the second paragraph -- this is a sitrep from 19
18 August at Biocic the UNMO patrol met an old whom who normally is living
19 in Sibenik. She asked them to write a message saying, "This is a
20 Croatian house but I am living in Sibenik so please do not burn this
21 house." Were you aware of this event, Mr. Marti?
22 A. Not in details but in similar events as well that people came
23 back or said they have been living before here so that these are property
24 or they told us we are now coming back and take over our former property.
25 Q. And were you aware of this woman asking UNMOs to write this --
1 A. About this still I'm not aware.
2 Q. Okay. Now, let us turn our attention to the actual individuals
3 committing these crimes and I note for your -- in your statement, your
4 1997 statement and again we are talking about P416, at page 12 and you're
5 talking about looters in this instance. If we go to page 12, line 23.
6 Are you with me, sir? Now, you note that the identity of these
7 looters was always difficult. You have to speak into the microphone.
8 A. Yes. We noticed that because it was not easy to see are they
9 members of an army? I mean what defines a soldier? Is that he is carry
10 a weapon or a gun? Or is it because he has -- he's wearing a uniform or
11 parts of the uniform? So it was very difficult to identify these
12 looters. Were they civilians or part of an army or whoever they were.
13 Q. And you had that question in your mind through this period of
14 time when you saw this looting; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Let's just continue on with that part of the statement on the
17 same page starting from line 23:
18 "Trying to identify the looters was always difficult because
19 first of all, the looters carried, or when they were in a group at least
20 one of them carried a weapon, mostly an AK-47, and mostly they also wore
21 parts of uniforms, either a combat jacket or combat trousers, at least
22 one of them, they were young people, so whenever it was said that it must
23 have been soldiers, one might has to differentiate. They belonged [sic]
24 to a regular force or young people who did not walk around as soldiers of
25 an existing unit but were just dressed like them." That was your
1 experience in your questions, wasn't it?
2 A. Yes, it was.
3 Q. Let me turn your attention to P154. And as this is coming up,
4 Mr. Marti, this is a UNMO sitrep of 19 September 1995. If you can just
5 scroll down the page, that page right there, before the 2 there, "Looting
6 is still observed by soldiers and civilians."
7 If you can move up four pages on the B, "And this is Team Sibenik
8 reporting on that line," the last two lines, "The patrol observed men and
9 civilian in uniforms looting the villages."
10 If we can go to one last -- if we can just stay on that page, go
11 on the page back. And -- in the Team Podkonje reported on the 19th, if
12 we can roll up just a little bit there, scroll up that page. "Team
13 Podkonje noted that it was assessed that the house was set on fire by
14 neighbours returning to the area."
15 One last item on this situation report is the next page. And I
16 will ask you some questions about these after we review them, Mr. Marti.
17 If we can just scroll down just a bit. And about midway through "But the
18 remaining Serbs can observe looting of the remaining houses, the
19 remaining Serbs states that the area earlier have been visited by HV
20 soldier that behaved in a correct manner but they believe that the
21 uniformed men visiting now are not real soldiers."
22 So just taking these through, I mean part of the confusion,
23 Mr. Marti, was that you had people in partial uniforms looting; right?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. You had people in these partial uniforms and civilians looting;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you were being told by some of the remaining Serbs that they
4 didn't think that these were real soldiers.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As we see in the --
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. So that led to a lot of confusion as to who exactly was
9 responsible and how to identify these people; isn't that right?
10 A. Yes, that's correct, but it happened because there was no
11 organisation who tried to establish at least a little bit of order. As I
12 mentioned it yesterday to the not being, in my opinion, not so difficult
13 to minimise the lootings over weeks and even months.
14 Q. I understand, sir. But identifying the perpetrators based an all
15 those factors was very difficult to do?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then in addition to that, you have the civilians actually
18 returning, the refugees returning; right? Is that right, yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And they brought with them, as you said yesterday, at page 4639,
21 line 17, "I understood that there was also revenge." Some of those
22 people that came back brought a revenge as well for what had happened to
23 them; isn't that so?
24 A. Yeah, that's so because they told us "Where the UN have been in
25 1991 when we have been pushed out? So we are just coming back to our
2 Q. But some of these people as you noted on that same page, on page
3 4638 at line 8, "Of course when we also, we also tried to -- but what
4 could we do against the looters? I mean when we were on the spot, with
5 our UN vehicle they just disappeared." So when you came, these people
6 left, didn't they?
7 A. Normally they just disappeared on even sometimes, we get in
8 contact with them, maybe we talk to them, and as I mentioned yesterday,
9 already one example, someone told me oh, I'm just looking for a motor so
10 here and some other told us as I mentioned before, where you have been
11 some years earlier?
12 Q. Now, in the midst of this, I think you noted that there was a
13 lack of order and a lack of control and I refer back to your 1997
14 statement 416, page 8, line 9 and line 11. And you believe that there
15 was some possibility to regain this control; is that right?
16 A. Yeah, that's right.
17 Q. Now, this -- you also noted for us yesterday that the area was a
18 very large area; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know how large the size of the Krajina was?
21 A. I have made a sketch very early in my diary just when I got into
22 the mission and here I notice it was -- the area for our Team Podkonje
23 before the Operation Oluja covered about 50 to 50 kilometres.
24 Q. Well, and that area is --
25 A. But that was prior to Operation Oluja. Even after Operation
1 Oluja, there were more regions coming -- were added. As I mentioned
2 before, before Operation Oluja, we didn't have access to all the places
3 and after Oluja, we were able to go everywhere. So it was even much
4 bigger than before.
5 Q. But the area that you were covering was vast, wasn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And we had these people coming back as well as these other
8 individuals looting and you simply couldn't cover all these areas, could
10 A. No, it was not possible.
11 Q. Now, sir, did you know how many civilian police were available to
12 the Croatian government to control this area?
13 A. No, I don't know.
14 Q. And do you know how many military police were available?
15 A. I don't know how many were.
16 Q. And the checkpoints he we talked about, you talked about setting
17 up a checkpoint. Do you know how many checkpoints these civilian police
18 and the military police is set up during this time?
19 A. What I have seen was this checkpoint I mentioned yesterday near
20 Plavno valley which was only manned a few days. Once I have seen the --
21 it was only not a real checkpoint, it was a two-man posting in Kistanje,
22 and that's all.
23 Q. So you don't know how many checkpoints they is set up?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Well, let's just talk about the checkpoint that you talked about
1 yesterday. I mean the checkpoint was set up in the Plavno valley; is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes, where you come out -- where you leave the Plavno valley.
4 Q. Now, when they set that checkpoint up, did the looting in those
5 hamlets stop?
6 A. That I cannot confirm because I was not in Plavno valley when the
7 checkpoint was manned.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the witness, Mr. Kehoe, may I draw your
9 attention to the fact that the last five, six, seven minutes, that
10 approximately 70 per cent of your questions just repeat by reading what
11 the witness said, reading what others said, asking the same questions
12 that have been answered already before. And apparently, I mean that's at
13 least how I analyse what you are doing is that you are seeking certain
14 conclusions because from the remaining 20 or 30 per cent, I would say
15 one-third is about what the witness doesn't know and that's all to
16 demonstrate that his conclusions are wrong.
17 MR. KEHOE: Not that, Judge, with all due respect, Judge, it's
18 some clarifications of his conclusions. During direct testimony, Your
19 Honour, there was some very broad conclusions set forth by the witness
20 and I'm just exploring the clarification.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take the last one, whether he saw these
22 checkpoints. He answered those questions exactly yesterday that he
23 didn't know how long they stayed because he was not present. It was in
24 the beginning of the Plavno valley.
25 MR. KEHOE: Judge, I had another question to follow up with that
1 which is what I was setting up which was the next question following what
2 Mr. Waespi brought up which is: Do you know the reasons why those
3 individuals were taken off that particular checkpoint?
4 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I say is that 70 to 80 per cent of
5 what you did over the last five to six minutes and I checked it carefully
6 was just repeating what was already said before reading to the witness,
7 what others had said. This Chamber is interested in hearing from the
8 witness what he knows rather than to hear again what he has said already
9 before and what others have said before.
10 So therefore, I have no problem if you ask him whether he knows
11 the reasons of that. It is similar like spending a couple of minutes
12 asking whether it takes you 20 or a 25 years in the Canadian army to have
13 sufficiently gained experience to be a General and then the same for a
14 Colonel and then -- I mean that's -- let's get to the point right away
15 and let's ask the witness -- and I'm not seeking further comments. You
16 may ask the questions to the witness.
17 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
18 Q. Now, during this period of time, Mr. Marti, I mean were you aware
19 of how many arrests had been made for lootings and burnings?
20 A. No, I'm not.
21 Q. You noted during the course of your testimony at 4639, page 4639,
22 line 2 when you were talking about controlling the area, you noted:
23 "As I remember, on a map in the newspaper, there were five
24 brigades who had been attacked Krajina so what did they do afterwards?
25 Why didn't they provide more security?"
1 Were you aware, sir, where those brigades went after Operation
3 A. No, I wasn't.
4 Q. Were you aware as an UNMO that the war continued against the
5 Bosnian Serbs up on the border between Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina?
6 A. That I was aware.
7 Q. But you are unaware that the brigades --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You're unaware that the brigades --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- that operate in the Krajina went there.
12 Now, you noted also in your testimony that public statements
13 could have been made with regard to this to cease the looting and any of
14 the criminal activity in the area; right?
15 A. That was my estimation that maybe that could have helped a little
17 Q. Now, you're talking about political leaders of the country making
18 those statements, aren't you?
19 A. I didn't make that difference of any leaders political or
20 military or whatever, just responsible people for that Krajina after
21 Operation Oluja.
22 Q. Do you know, sir, whether any Zagreb officials made public
23 appeals to stop the looting and the burning?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Now, obviously one of the ways to stop crime is to investigate
1 these matters. And I think what we talked about yesterday was P425 if we
2 can bring that up. If we can go to the next page. This is the matter of
3 Milan Marcetic and Suica Dusan -- Dusan Suica that we talked about
4 yesterday, sir, and you mentioned some of your commentary about this.
5 Across the bar table, Your Honour, I would like to offer an item
6 into evidence which is 1D30-0017?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, I don't yet know what it is but if you
8 know --
9 MR. KEHOE: It's a criminal report on this event.
10 MR. WAESPI: No objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D390.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D390 is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. KEHOE: Now, this notes it is filed on the 5th of October,
15 1995 on the two individuals that we just discussed. And it is a report
16 of the MUP with an unidentified perpetrator where various steps for the
17 examination took place.
18 If I can offer this into evidence. Has it been admitted.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It has already been admitted. At the same time, is
20 there any way that we get this on the screen so at least we can have a
21 glance at it.
22 MR. KEHOE: Again, D390 is 1D30-0017. I'm delaying because I'm
23 going to flip back to the other document, so I'm just giving Your Honour
24 a chance to read through it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Now, I take it you are unaware of this filing, is that right,
3 Mr. Marti? Did you know that a criminal report had been filed with the
4 Ministry of the Interior?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 Q. If we can go back to P425. And if we can just go up -- if I can
7 just reference this for, Mr. Marti, can we just go to the next page.
8 Because attached to this exhibit is a document noted HRAT activities.
9 Can we go one page up, please.
10 Now, the -- this note is HRAT activities. At the bottom of the
11 page, without reading it, sir, it notes that the police arrived on the
12 scene to take the bodies for autopsy. And at the bottom, the last two
13 lines, it notes, "A few days after the event, Croatian police drove two
14 of the villagers in order to help in the identification of three
15 suspects, currently held in Zadar."
16 If we go to the next page. The top of the page if we could blow
17 those first two paragraphs up. "By the two witnesses, we were told that
18 they could not identify the criminals among those three under arrest.
19 However, they stressed even if they could identify the perpetrators they
20 would not do so for fear of retaliations."
21 "On the spot, we met four anti-terrorist policemen from Zadar.
22 According to one of them, since the 30th of September, they have been
23 instructed to patrol the area on a 24-hour basis. Also Croatian civilian
24 police had received the same instructions and a patrol was encountered in
25 the valley."
1 Now, Mr. Marti, using this as an example, were you aware of this
2 type of response by the Croatian police when such crimes occurred?
3 A. Yes I'm aware but it -- in some cases but not in all the cases so
4 I hope there is not only one criminal report, there must be 184 according
5 to our list of 184 dead bodies we found.
6 Q. But you were aware of this instance that --
7 A. Sometimes -- I mean we any case we had we tried to get in
8 contact, special the team of Hussein Al-Alfi tried to get in contact with
9 the authorities to clarify, but I mean the examples showed that in the
10 case of Milan Marcetic, it was too late, he has been killed, and he
11 thought he was safe according to his paper he had, as I mentioned
13 Q. I understand, sir. Let me turn your attention to another subject
14 which had to do with your statistical numbers that you put together with
15 Mr. Anttila and if I could turn to P176. And if we can go to the second
16 page of this document.
17 If we may, just looking at this for reference, Mr. Marti, this is
18 a document that notes number of buildings totally damaged, partially
19 damaged. And you come up with a final number at the last page of 17.270
20 buildings either totally or partially damaged.
21 My first question for you, sir, is how many of these buildings
22 were habitable?
23 A. You mean habitable.
24 Q. People could --
25 A. After the ...
1 Q. Correct.
2 A. I cannot say a correct number. Even -- I mean if a house is
3 partly damaged, for example, you still can stay inside. It's not so
4 comfortable, you mean we saw such situations. For example, one thing in
5 one of my statements in my diary, I have noticed that we found an old
6 woman in Plavno valley but you can look through her house. I mean the
7 house was partly damaged she was still inside.
8 Q. So looking at the partially damaged numbers that you have and in
9 176, you note that there are 9.207 of them, we can't tell from that how
10 many of hose houses are habitable or not, can you?
11 A. Not exactly. I mean to be precise, you have to look at each
12 house before you make a assessment.
13 Q. And the idea of partially damaged would come into even if there
14 was some gunshot fire on the front of that house, you would consider that
15 to be partially damaged, wouldn't you? Even though it's habitable?
16 A. I can only say why I would have considered this house, but as you
17 see, the list was covered together from different teams so I cannot say
18 what was the general attitude how to consider the damages of the
20 Q. Well let us turn our attention to P68. Now, have you seen P68
21 before? And you're welcome to scroll through this, sir, it's a
22 multi-paged document that is approximately -- not approximately, 70 pages
24 A. Yes, I have seen it.
25 Q. Now, this, sir, is a compilation of the team situation reports;
1 isn't that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right. That was made in the HQ sector in Knin. In
3 the sector HQ in Knin.
4 Q. Was this the information that was used to compile the statistical
5 items that you have set forth in 176? In other words, number of burned
6 houses, partially damaged, damaged, et cetera?
7 A. It can be a part of it. I mean the list that we were talking
8 about before was put together from different informations we got every
9 day from the different teams.
10 Q. Well, if this is the information, the sitreps from the teams,
11 what else did you have?
12 A. You mean who have what?
13 Q. What other information did you have that went into the compiling
14 of Exhibit P76, the statistics of buildings damaged and partially damaged
15 or totally damaged?
16 A. There are no other informations.
17 Q. So all of the information that you used to compile Exhibit 176
18 should be set forth in these sitreps?
19 A. That also might be possible that some of the teams brought the
20 information directly into the HQ, but I cannot be sure that any
21 information was before exactly in a daily sitrep and information was only
22 collected through the -- was condensed with all the sitreps. It might
23 also be possible that some teams brought their information directly to
24 the HQ.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
1 MR. WAESPI: The question that was asked to the witness was, "So
2 all of the information that you used to compile exhibit 176 should be set
3 forth in these sitreps." I think it should be made clear or asked to the
4 witness who compiled the information, Exhibit 176, what was the
5 involvement of the witness --
6 MR. KEHOE: Hold on a second. This is redirect examination and I
7 don't want the Prosecution flagging answers to the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you not talk at the same time.
9 Let me just ... in order to better understand the testimony of
10 the witness, it makes some sense to be better informed about how Exhibit
11 176 was compiled. That will certainly assist us in better understanding
12 his answers.
13 Mr. Waespi, perhaps you could introduce this suggestion in a
14 different way so as not to give Mr. Kehoe the impression that you are
15 starting redirect examination which I do understand was not your
17 Could you tell us a bit more about how this list on the basis of
18 what and especially by whom this Exhibit 176 was compiled?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I will try it. This list which
20 we were discussing before was produced by the team in -- the Human Rights
21 Action Team in Knin. And as we know, Kari Anttila was part of it like
22 me. And most of the computer work, it was Kari who typed the list. Me,
23 I was not is so very used to use this computer system, it's the -- all
24 these lines and et cetera.
25 The basis of this information was on one side as I have mentioned
1 already, was the daily sitreps, but I cannot say that there was no other
2 information to collect -- no other information included as it might have
3 been possible that they got direct information from other teams also.
4 And I mentioned yesterday already also that when you saw the Team
5 Podkonje we only mentioned the people that we found not the houses so I
6 already mentioned already. Is so my main focus was not counting houses
7 when I was on patrol, my main focus was always to care about the people
8 who were still there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
10 MR. KEHOE:
11 Q. Was there any other -- I apologise.
12 Other than the sitreps, to your knowledge, was there any other
13 formal procedure within the UN UNMOs of collecting this information?
14 A. No, there was not a formal procedure.
15 MR. KEHOE: Let me -- if I might just have one moment, Your
17 Q. Let me show you P65. Have you ever seen this form before,
18 Mr. Marti?
19 A. Yes, during the proofing, I have seen it. During the proofing
20 time we were discussing it.
21 Q. Now, was this an official document that was used to collect
23 A. That was a document that the Podkonje team used but it was
24 self-made document.
25 Q. So this was a document that was only used for Team Podkonje?
1 A. I don't know if the other team -- or I don't remember if other
2 teams had also the same form but that was only among us to make it easier
3 when you were on patrol to figure out what he we had to do.
4 Q. Now, looking at this form, what was to be included in this form
5 as opposed to what was to be included in the sitreps?
6 A. That should normally also noticing in the sitrep.
7 Q. So whatever is in these forms should also be in the sitreps?
8 A. I guess, yes.
9 Q. Now, when you were putting together P176, your statistical
10 form -- well, let me withdraw that for one moment.
11 You noted that this was a form for Team Podkonje. When you were
12 putting your statistical information together to -- on P176 with
13 Mr. Anttila, did you see dozens and dozens of these forms like this?
14 A. I can't remember that I have seen dozens and dozens of these
16 Q. You have?
17 A. No, that I haven't.
18 Q. You have not. Okay?
19 THE INTERPRETER: For the benefit of the interpreters, the
20 witness is kindly asked to speak up, if possible. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You heard that, Mr. Marti.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I heard.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please.
24 MR. KEHOE:
25 Q. Now, just before we leave this area, on your definition of
1 partially damaged and damaged, if we have a situation for instance if the
2 police went in and broke in a door to do a search and the door was
3 broken, would that be considered a partially damaged residence?
4 A. No, no, if only a door is broken, that is not, in our opinion,
5 that was not partially damaged.
6 Q. Let us turn our attention to the document that you -- came in
7 previously but your name is on it, P177. Now, on the front page of P177,
8 the document that you signed with Mr. Anttila, you have very specific
9 percentages and numbers in the second paragraph, do you see that?
10 A. Yes, I see.
11 Q. And of course those numbers are only as accurate as the
12 underlying data; isn't that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Let us turn our attention to 176 -- excuse me, P176, I apologise.
15 Now, just looking at this report, with you noted yesterday that Team
16 Podkonje didn't have the number of buildings that were in the villages
17 because I think you told us that you were interested in people not
18 buildings; is that right?
19 A. Yes, and --
20 Q. That, of course, throws the numbers off. But let us move away
21 from, if we could, from Team Podkonje and move to the second to last page
22 of this document. We were looking at the team Otocac numbers, I believe
23 that's the -- a few pages up, if we can. Actually, five pages up. We're
24 going to the second to last page in this document. The next page. It
25 should be the Otocac number.
1 Now, when you were compiling these statistics, Mr. Marti, did you
2 notice that virtually all of the Otocac numbers were multiples of five
3 barring a couple here and there? Firstly, all of these numbers on
4 numbers of buildings totally damaged and partially damaged were numbers
5 of five. For instance, if we look at Korenica: 3.000 buildings, 600
6 totally damaged, 24 partially damaged. Five down, Licki Osik: 2.000
7 buildings, 250 damaged, 550. When you were compiling these statistics,
8 did you question this number gathering?
9 A. As I mentioned already, I didn't compile these statistics myself,
10 I think it was rather Kari Anttila than me. Maybe I would have also
11 asked what is this -- all these numbers if possible dividing into five or
12 ten. But I have maybe to explain a little bit this procedure of
13 collecting information. Not all the teams had the same accurate or the
14 same procedures. Some teams just drove through a village and they count
15 the buildings and then they told us: Oh, we have been driving through
16 this village. There are no people in this village.
17 And I remember very well in one of the team leaders meeting where
18 Steinar Hjertnes, I made an intervention because I told them, look, can
19 you not just drive through a village. You have to calm down. You have
20 to stop the car, you have to calm down, leave the car and you have to go
21 around the buildings because when you come with a vehicle to a village,
22 the first reaction to the people still living there is to hide because
23 they didn't know who is coming so they hide. So to find the people you
24 have to get out of the car but not all the teams did the same procedure
25 as I did it in my team and so that's kind of maybe also be a case that
1 they just figure out is numbers and it's not -- it must be -- or it
2 cannot be very precise, even I can't imagine how is it that you count
3 buildings in a village if you want to do it perfectly, you need at least
4 half a day for each village if you want to do it in a proper way count
5 the buildings, and then not only counting but also estimate what is the
6 condition of the buildings, damaged, partly damaged or not damaged.
7 Q. Well, let me go to this second page of this document just to --
8 not to leave Team Otocac alone, the second page in the Zadar Benkovac
9 team. I think that's the same page. If we go to the next page. If we
10 look at the numbers from the Zadar-Benkovac virtually all of those
11 barring an individual one, those are all multiples of five as well. So
12 these numbers themselves are not accurate numbers where -- not precise
13 numbers are they?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, when you were going through here, you didn't account for the
16 fact that, for instance, Rodaljice, you see that in there, you have 701
17 buildings, 118 partially damaged, 230 fully damaged, you didn't account
18 for the fact that that's a Croat village?
19 A. I don't know. I didn't ...
20 Q. Now, this particular item, these items of evidence, and -- you
21 were doing this in conjunction with the Human Rights Action Teams; isn't
22 that right?
23 A. Yes, when I was appointed as a Senior Liaison Officer this is
24 Human Rights Action Team.
25 Q. And the individual who was on the scene at the time was an
1 individual by the name of Edward Flynn, E. J. Flynn; do you remember him?
2 A. I don't remember Flynn.
3 Q. And just looking at September, or his particular testimony on 11
4 April 2008, he was asked on page 313:
5 "Did the UNMOs ever appear at the HRAT evening meeting and tell
6 you that he had counted, let's say, 11.000 burned houses?"
7 Answer: "No, not to my recollection."
8 Question: "That number would have been something that you would
9 have remembered; is that correct?"
10 Answer: "I think so."
11 Question: "Did they ever come back and say 16.000 houses?"
12 Answer: "I know that the UNMOs were conducting a survey and I
13 know that their numbers were high. Again as I say when I refer to my own
14 estimate, my estimate is to be on the conservative side. I don't recall,
15 though, any discussions with regard to those numbers while I was there."
16 Now, just one last inter -- delineation there.
17 Question: "Let's discuss, then, what would you discuss at the
18 HRAT meetings at which UNMOs are present and if they counted 11.000
19 homes, would that be something that you would have discussed at the
20 evening meeting of HRAT?"
21 Answer: "Yes."
22 Question: "Is so you're telling us at least through your time
23 which I believe you said was 16 September, no UNMO came to a meeting and
24 said we've counted 11.000 burned houses?"
25 Answer: "I only recall and I only reported on the sightings that
1 had been made and yeah, I don't recall at that we discussed any
2 information you described."
3 Now, can you explain to me, sir, why this type of information
4 with these numbers would have been considered or -- let me withdraw that,
5 would not have been discussed with the person who was in charge of these
6 HRAT teams. Do you know?
7 A. I cannot anything explain what this Mr. Flynn is telling here
8 because I don't know him. I have never met him. But I have attended
9 several meetings together with Hussein Al-Alfi together with UNHCR,
10 together with Red Cross, so I was in different meetings, but I don't know
11 this Mr. Flynn.
12 Q. So you can't explain why he thinks --
13 A. No.
14 Q. -- your numbers are high?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Let me turn your attention to P169.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, may I take it that you wanted to ask the
18 witness whether he can explain why Mr. Flynn thought the numbers --
19 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- the numbers to be high. There is a difference.
21 MR. KEHOE: I apologise.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. KEHOE: Let's turn to P169.
24 Q. This is a sitrep of 20 October 1995
25 pages. I want to ask you if you were a -- at the bottom of that page,
1 "Other significant incidents." If we can just blow that up just a bit.
2 Now, in this, this is quoting a Slobodna Dalmacija, by the way
3 this is an UNMO sitrep, a Slobodan Dalmacija article where it quotes
4 General Cermak noting about the burned and destroyed homes:
5 "We have been told to the ambassadors that information proclaimed
6 by UNCRO of 22.000 burned and destroyed houses in the former Sector
7 South, in other words, 70 per cent of all the objects in the area is
8 completely untrue. According to our reports there is a number of 2.000
9 to 3.000 houses, not 22.000, General Cermak said."
10 Now, Mr. Marti, with the statistical analysis and the other
11 problems with your statistics, the number that General Cermak assesses
12 here is a more accurate assessment of the actual damage to the houses in
13 the former Sector South, isn't it?
14 A. That I cannot say because I don't know what General Cermak was --
15 the basis of his assessment.
16 Q. Let me just ask you one last area, sir, and it has to do with on
17 the freedom of movement issues. In your 1997 statement on page 4, line
18 25 to 27, it says, "On one day Lieutenant-Colonel Steinar Hjertnes, the
19 commander of Norwegian Lieutenant-Colonel, he was the sector chief told
20 us to stop observing military movements or to rather concentrate on
21 events in the humanitarian field."
22 Do you see that, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, in reality, you and the other UNMOs continued to monitor and
25 report on military movements, didn't you? Yes?
1 A. No that's not true because after Operation Oluja our main task as
2 a military observer that we had before, I mean it was over, there was no
3 more UN zone of -- no UN zone of protection anymore so the main task to
4 observe the cease-fire between these two parties was gone.
5 Q. So --
6 A. But we still noted when we military movement from the Croatian
7 army but after a while Steinar told us hey, it's no more our job we don't
8 have to observe what the Croatian army is doing because the situation has
10 Q. Well, but the UNMOs continued to do it into October, didn't they?
11 A. To --
12 Q. To report on HV military movements, didn't they?
13 A. Yes, some of them -- that was like a normal procedure whenever
14 you see somewhere some military activities, you note this down.
15 Q. And this was outside their mandate, wasn't it as to what you were
16 supposed to be doing?
17 A. Yeah, because the mandate was established for the mandate
18 before -- for the situation before Operation Oluja.
19 Q. Now, tell me in your -- tell me about Operation Black Crow?
20 A. Black what?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Black bird.
23 Q. Black bird, black crow, I can point it to you in your diary of
24 September 30th of 1995. Black Crow or Black Bird was an operation where
25 all the UNMOs were tasked to go into Bosnia and Herzegovina and report on
1 HV military movements and HV emplacements ; isn't that right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. So they went into an area contrary to the mandate that they had
4 with the Republic of Croatia
5 right -- HV military -- excuse me; right?
6 A. I don't know that we had after Operation Oluja what kind of
7 mandate UN had with Croatian army.
8 Q. Let's just look at that, then, because it's in P28, the
9 Akashi-Sarinic Agreement, if we can bring that up on the screen and you
10 can take it look at it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need -- is it a primary focus to see
12 whether the witness considers it contrary to the mandate or not or first
13 of all to find out what actually happened?
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, both.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. Now, if we can just blow up the bottom of that and going into
18 the next page, paragraphs 4 and 5 set forth what the UN was to do or not
19 to do. Mr. Marti, are you familiar with this agreement?
20 A. No, I'm not.
21 Q. Why don't we just -- if you can flip to the next page.
22 Paragraphs 4 and 5, if we can read that -- if you can read that to
24 Do you see that, sir?
25 A. Now I have read it.
1 Q. Now, when you told us in your statement of 1997, P416 on page 4
2 that Steinar Hjertnes said that the mandate had changed and that you were
3 now supposed to -- that you had to stop observing military movements but
4 rather concentrate on events in the humanitarian field, it's based on
5 this agreement?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Now, Black Crow was -- Black Bird was ordered on the 30th of
8 September, 1995
9 A. It was Steinar. I mean I don't know -- sorry. I don't know if
10 he has got some other order from somewhere, but he ordered it to the
11 UNMOs to conduct these patrols.
12 Q. And you knew, sir, that the UNMOs in Sector South were not
13 supposed to be in Bosnia
14 A. No, because I didn't know anything about the new agreement. The
15 reason why we were told to do these patrols was because we had still a
16 restriction of movement -- we never were able to drive over Strmica. I
17 mean on the other side the direction south, Drnis et cetera, Maljkovo.
18 We could go anywhere. The only road that which was closed for us after
19 Operation Oluja was this road after Strmica.
20 Q. Sir, this monitoring of HV activities in Bosnia-Herzegovina was a
21 change in your mandate -- excuse me, was counter to what you had been
22 told by Steinar that you were now supposed to be involved in humanitarian
23 endeavors; isn't that right?
24 A. No, the task which we got which Operation Blue Bird was not to
25 monitoring any military activities on the other side but to get to know
1 what has happened according to the humanitarian side because we know
2 there had also been fighting, et cetera, and our task was to monitor if
3 there are still some people left, like left in Krajina, some people who
4 wanted to run away or who couldn't run away, and I remember very well I
5 was also on patrol in the Operation Blue Bird together with
6 Bertil Svendsen and I remember this patrol very well because of two
7 things once, the only person we found still alive in this region was an
8 old woman in a hamlet, and this woman was a very bad conditions and the
9 case too because I remember very well on the way back, Bertil and me
10 realised we were driving through a minefield.
11 So the task which we got from Steinar was not to monitor any HV
12 movement but to get the picture of the humanitarian situation in these
14 Q. Mr. Marti, can you explain to me why this so-called Operation
15 Black Bird or Black Crow is not contained in any of the sitreps that was
16 produced by the any of the UNMOs during this time frame?
17 A. No, it's mentioned in my diary.
18 Q. You diary didn't get sent to Zagreb
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Sir, prior to Operation Storm, you weren't authorised to patrol
21 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you?
22 A. Prior to Operation Storm?
23 Q. No?
24 A. No, the mandate was very clear inside the zone of protection, it
1 Q. When you went into Bosnia-Herzegovina for Operation Black Crow or
2 Black Bird did you get the authorisation of the Republic of
4 A. No, I mean I didn't get any as a UNMO in a patrol, any get any
5 authorisation. What I got was the task from Steinar to go and we did it
6 special places, I mean we had clear order where we have to drive, which
7 road, et cetera, what we have to monitor and when we have to come back.
8 Q. And you don't know if anybody else got that authorisation from
9 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
10 A. No, I don't know.
11 MR. KEHOE: If I might have one moment, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, about the date. I see the Chamber was
13 not aware of any Black Crow, Blue Bird or Black Bird but apparently it
14 started on the 30th of September.
15 MR. KEHOE: Correct.
16 THE WITNESS: It was called Black Bird.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You used the word Blue Bird as well.
18 MR. KEHOE: The colour of the bird was dark.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The indictment usually goes until the 30th of
20 September which you -- I think you've drawn our attention to that, so
21 apparently something happened and you think it was beyond the mandate.
22 Where does the relevance --
23 MR. KEHOE: There has been tremendous amount of evidence that has
24 transpired in this courtroom concerning restrictions of movement. We
25 have had any number of witnesses coming in and telling the Court we
1 couldn't go to this place or we couldn't go to that place all through
2 August and September and frankly into October and the information
3 inference why the HV or the Republic of Croatia
4 movement was because something bad was happening. Well, the answer to
5 that is two scores.
6 Number one, there was military operations, continuing military
7 operations which clearly HV did not want the UN on and number two, there
8 was activities such as this where they were going into areas that they
9 weren't supposed to be, reporting back on HV movements contrary to the
10 mandate. How does that come into play? We need only go back to the
11 whole information that was transmitted by the UN to the ARSK or
12 surreptitiously received by the ARSK during Operation Storm. And the
13 restrictions of movement that place into those concerns by the HV and the
14 Republic of Croatia
15 travelled around.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see now how you perceive the relevance of
17 your questions.
18 Mr. Kehoe, could you tell us how much more time you'd need?
19 MR. KEHOE: If I might just have one -- just five seconds, Judge.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Five seconds from further questions.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I know you will be very glad to hear
23 this but I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm -- that doesn't make me happy as such.
25 MR. KEHOE: Globally, Judge.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Mikulicic, you are the next one but would
2 it not be better to have a -- take a break a bit earlier then to resume
3 at 25 minutes to 1.00 and if you could then conclude, even Mr. Kehoe
4 managed to stay well within the time that he estimated. That you would
5 then take 55 minutes, try to finish in 50 minutes, would 15 minutes then
6 do for you, Mr. Waespi.
7 MR. WAESPI: I believe so.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break and resume at 25 minutes to
9 1.00 sharp.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Marti, you will now be cross-examined by
13 Mr. Mikulicic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.
15 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Marti, my name is
18 Goran Mikulicic and I represent Mr. Markac in these proceedings. I'm
19 going to ask a few questions although my learned colleague here already
20 raised certain issues with you, and I'm not going to repeat them.
21 I would appreciate to have your answers to the best of your
22 recollection after so many years after the event.
23 Mr. Marti, according to your statement, on the 12th of July, in
24 1995, you arrived in Zagreb
25 UNMOs in the area of the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina
1 tell us briefly how did this training look like?
2 A. Yes, sir. First, I have to make a correction. I didn't arrive
3 on the 12th of July but on the 12th of June in 1995 in Zagreb, 12th of
4 June, 1995
5 I had a training as a UN Military Observer, a three-week training
6 before in Switzerland
7 training course for international officers from different countries for
8 the teaching when you become a military observer, so actually the
9 training so-called training week we had in Zagreb, that means every UNMO
10 who came to the mission in Zagreb
11 example, the most important one for all of us was to get the driving
12 licence as an UNMO, but there were also some few trainings in how to
13 handle a car, how to repair a car, how to carry out crater analysis,
14 how -- there were also some medical trainings but compared with the
15 three-week training that I had before in Switzerland in spring 1994, this
16 training was, in my opinion, only a how you say, a refresher training for
18 Q. I understand. Within this training, were you given certain
19 information about the historical and political situation pertaining to
20 the area that you were going to be assigned to?
21 A. The information we got about the political situation was very
22 few, I mean we got a situation how it was by that time, and we were told
23 to attend every morning a briefing in the UNMO HQ in Zagreb, but this
24 briefing, of course, was concentrated on the situation like it was by
25 that time. So about historical situation, we didn't get so many
2 Q. Would you agree with me if I say that in a certain way, you were
3 learning as long as you went concerning these particular issues?
4 A. I don't understand the question well. You mean if we were
5 learning by doing or what exactly is your question?
6 Q. I will rephrase the question. In discharging your duties, on a
7 daily basis, you actually became acquainted with the political situation
8 in the area that you were intended to observe; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct, but about the political situation, how it was in
10 the field, we didn't discuss much. We just knew that we have to go to
11 the Sector South and we knew the lucky one of us are posted on the
12 Croatian side and less lucky one of us have to be posted on the Serbian
13 side and then we have to try to manage and to do our task as well as
15 Q. Thank you. So on the 19th of June, you arrived in Knin as the
16 head of the Podkonje Team, 7CW. How many vehicles did you have and how
17 many men were there on your team?
18 A. No, that's not correct. I mean I arrived on the 19th of June in
19 Knin, but of course not as a head of the team but as a simply a member.
20 I mean I was the greenhorn in the team by that time. By that time, we
21 had two vehicles for the team and due to security matters, every night,
22 we had to park one of our vehicles in the UN -- in the sector HQ in Knin
23 because we had only space, that means a garage, for one vehicle in -- on
24 the team site in Podkonje.
25 Q. The territory that you were covering was pretty large, it
1 stretched from Knin to Otric and then from Knin to the
2 Bosnian-Herzegovinian border and on the other side, from Knin to
3 Kistanje. With the vehicles and the men that you had, were you able to
4 cover fully this territory in doing your daily job?
5 A. Of course it was a very difficult job to do with even when we had
6 two patrols the whole day on the road, you cannot cover much because when
7 you -- when you conduct a patrol, for example, from Knin to Otric, that
8 means half a way, it's a half a day task, and the same when you travelled
9 from Knin to Drnis and back with all the -- with the checkpoints that
10 were there and et cetera, all the security measures we had to fulfill, so
11 it was a very hard -- it was quite a difficult task to monitor the whole
12 area quite properly. So whatever we monitored, by that time, it was only
13 punctual monitoring, but we didn't cover the whole situation all the
15 Q. After the Croatian authorities were restored in the territory of
16 the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina after Operation Oluja, you said
17 that your mandate actually was altered. In that respect, did you receive
18 any official instructions regulating the change of the mandate of UN
19 monitors? In that context, I'm referring to official --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction -- to written
21 instructions regarding the change of the mandate.
22 THE WITNESS: No, as I have mentioned already before, we didn't
23 or at least me, I didn't receive any written order that the mandate has
24 changed to something else what we had before.
25 Q. Concerning the subsequent change of the mandate, did you receive
1 any additional training for your future tasks after the mandate was
2 altered in this particular area?
3 A. No, we didn't receive any training because there was also no
4 time. I mean the situation has -- had a change after Operation Oluja and
5 the problem was that there were some people on the ground which were not
6 safe so the time was running to do something for these people.
7 Q. Did you have an opportunity, Mr. Marti, to become acquainted with
8 the organisation and the structure of the Croatian army, the civilian
9 police, and, generally speaking, how the Croatian authorities operated in
10 the territory that had been recently liberated?
11 A. No, I didn't have this opportunity, what I only got was the
12 punctual contact with some of the Croatian authorities in Knin and some
13 of these contacts were quite difficult. I can give you an example.
14 There was a graveyard near Knin and we noticed that there have been made
15 fresh graves and on the graves was -- were putting crosses and on the
16 crosses were not names but only NN and then numbers, but different
17 numbers. I mean the numbers didn't follow 1, 2, 3, 4, for example, you
18 have number 609 then 704 and so on and so on; and when I was in the team
19 with Hussein Al-Alfi, we tried to find who is buried in this grave. We
20 thought when there are crosses with different numbers, there must also be
21 somewhere a list with different numbers. And it takes us days and weeks
22 to figure out who was responsible for these graves, who had a list about
23 these dead bodies who have been buried here.
24 So during my time in Knin in the Human Rights Action Team, we
25 were not able to find out who was buried there. Maybe, I don't know if
1 after Hussein Al-Alfi or his -- somebody else finally managed to find out
2 who had been buried there. So this is an example, I just want to show
3 you how difficult it was to find somebody in Knin who was responsible,
4 who was willing to help us.
5 Q. In this context, were you familiar with the organisation and
6 functioning of the civilian protection?
7 A. I remember one day, according to the case I have mentioned
8 before, I had a contact with this -- what do you call -- civilian
9 protection unit, but even they told us: We cannot help you. You have to
10 address yourself to another organisation or another office in, I think it
11 was Zadar.
12 Q. Mr. Marti, do you know what the role of the special police was in
13 Operation Storm and after the Operation Storm?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to talk to any member of the
16 special police?
17 A. I think the only contact I had with the special police was
18 together with this case in Podinarje where some Serb man wanted to come
19 back from the forest and they wanted to be handed out to the Croatian
20 authorities, but I think that was only a very small contact. By that
21 time, I was in the team the first day when we wanted to go to Podinarje,
22 we couldn't go because I think it was this -- what do you call the
23 special police was carrying out an operation near the area of Podinarje
24 and in the following time, I think we had a small contact with them, but
25 that was the only one.
1 Q. Thank you for this. We'll come back to this topic later.
2 Mr. Marti, you mentioned that on the day when Operation Storm
3 began, on the evening of that day, you were with the family of the
4 neighbours where you were living and that at one point, panic broke out
5 and you explained how it all happened. My question is: Were you aware
6 how the media in Knin were informing the public? Were you able to follow
7 the news that were disseminated through the Knin media?
8 A. No, I was not able. The only thing I noticed that during the
9 day, also the radios went off because of lack of batteries so we were
10 more or less cut off of any information in this hamlet, Podkonje.
11 Q. Do you know that somebody from among the ranks of UNMO had an
12 obligation to follow the work of the Krajina media and provide certain
13 analysis, information, et cetera, in that respect?
14 A. Among the ranks of UNMO? I don't know. I have never heard that.
15 Q. In your earlier testimony, you told us that you managed to
16 provide and secure fuel for the vehicles owned by your neighbours. Allow
17 me to read it out to you a portion of your statement which is Exhibit
18 P415, which is your 1996 statement in which you say the following --
19 that's paragraph 3 on page 1, three lines before the end of the paragraph
20 and I'm going to quote from your statement, [In English] "... from the UN
21 headquarters in Knin but I have to they have to help us in return as long
22 as we had Serbs with us, the Serbian soldiers wouldn't touch us."
23 [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, can you explain why you needed
24 protection so that you wouldn't be touched by the Serbs at that time in
25 order not to prevent you in a certain way. What was this all about?
1 A. You have to imagine the situation on that very evening. I mean
2 we were still more or less hoped by the villagers, I mentioned before
3 that in the morning in the -- UN send an APC to collect all the UN
4 personnel in and around Knin but when this APC conducted by Jordanian
5 military arrived near the village, they -- the villagers, they didn't let
6 us go. So they said that people in the village, they said, "You have to
7 stay. You have to protect us as a UN," so the APC drove back.
8 But when, in the evening when the panic broke out, and Biljana
9 asked for fuel and I told her first, look, and she shouted, "UN is not
10 helping us." And even I had the discussion with the team leader, with
11 the deputy team leader, the team leader was on leave, the deputy team
12 leader was Felix Anglada from Spain
13 told him, we have to manage how that we be -- can get into a shelter. I
14 mean the security for us was also important.
15 So I made a deal with Biljana, and I was supported by
16 Pavel Komper a colleague from the Czech Republic, so I told Biljana,
17 look, I have no fuel here because our car is a Toyota Land Cruiser and
18 this car needs diesel so we don't have any fuel for your car here, but I
19 try to manage to get fuel for you but on the other side, you must
20 guarantee that we, the UNMO team, can get safely into the UN compound in
21 Knin. So Pavel and me and her and her brother drove in the private car
22 from Podkonje to Knin and I went -- by that time, the road was messed up
23 with refugees, et cetera, already, farmer trucks, et cetera, it was not
24 so easy to get through this mess but when we arrived the gate, then
25 Biljana's brother thought, ah, now you are safe but maybe you don't come
1 because you are now in the camp. And then Pavel told them he will wait
2 outside for me until I will come back with the fuel.
3 I went inside the camp and of course it is not a problem to get
4 two canisters of fuel. We went back, still through this whole mess, and
5 now -- I mean now it was the key point of the situation because we had
6 fulfill the part of our agreement, and now it was on Biljana's side to
7 fulfill also her -- their part of the deal. And we had still this -- we
8 had one car that Toyota Land Cruiser, so we packed as much as possible
9 things in this car, and we were five UNMOs by that time, and drove back.
10 But to drive back with a UN car during that mess, you needed a
11 protection and the protection was one car of Biljana's family in front of
12 us, then Biljana was sitting on my knees in the car, and behind us was
13 another car of Biljana's family. And during the whole drive from
14 Podkonje to the Knin HQ, I mean it was not so far, about 2 kilometres,
15 the people were bumping on our car, they were shouting and I was very
16 sure without Biljana and her family in our car and around our car, we
17 would have never had the chance to get through this mess safely into the
18 UN HQ.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marti, for this exhaustive answer, but with all
20 due respect, you did not answer my question. My question was: Why did
21 you think that for as long as you had Serbs with you, the Serbian
22 soldiers won't touch you? Why did you think that there was danger from
23 the Serbian soldier for the UN vehicle and yourself as an UNMO?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, when you said the witness didn't
25 answer your question. Your question was, the last part was: What was
1 this all about? I wondered whether I would not have stopped the witness
2 halfway because I didn't -- hardly could imagine that you would be
3 interested in all these kind of details. Please take -- intervene when
4 need be and do not wait for one page and then say to the witness he did
5 not answer your question when he actually to some extent did. Please
7 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will follow your guidance.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, let me repeat my question. I was
9 referring to the following: Why did you emphasise that there was certain
10 fear that you might be attacked by the is Serbian soldiers and I'm
11 referring to your 1996 statement? We are talking about the Serbian
13 A. I mean the situation was very confusing and as we had some
14 experience before, I mean there were -- have been -- I mean the situation
15 was not so intense like in that very evening there had been -- have been
16 different car hijacking so I mean when you are in a situation and
17 everybody try to run away, I think it was very -- it could have happened
18 very easily that they would have also tried to steal our car which we
19 still had and then we would have been in Podkonje without any car. I
20 mean together with this Serb family by that time was only a security
22 Q. I understand. Does this mean that in the -- on the evening of
23 the 4th of August when you went to Knin and back, between Podkonje and
24 Knin, there was the is Serbian army deployed?
25 A. I didn't see any specific members of the army because I mean it
1 was a crowd on the road and I didn't have time to look around. I was
2 much more concentrated just what is in front of our car.
3 Q. Very well. Let us move to another topic now. There was a lot of
4 mention in your previous testimony of the looting that followed or the
5 incidents of looting that followed in the aftermath of Operation Storm.
6 You made several references to this, and I would just like to ask you a
7 few questions with respect to this. In your statement given in 1997,
8 that's Exhibit P416, page 4, line 11 to 15, you mention that in the area,
9 there were some roving gangs who were committing looting in the area.
10 Many of them were dressed in uniforms and that they were armed.
11 Can you give us more details about these roving gangs and what
12 did you mean by that?
13 A. We saw the -- as I have mentioned before, we saw groups or --
14 groups of young men who were roaming around and the people were afraid of
15 them. And as I mentioned before, it was not easy to say that these are
16 members of an army or civilians or whatever, but it had happened several
17 times that we saw such groups.
18 Q. And these groups associated you to roving gangs; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, you can call it like that.
20 Q. On page 5 of the same statement, and I'd like to refer you to
21 lines 5 to 9, you mention, and I will quote your statement, perhaps
22 that's easier than have it interpreted:
23 [In English] "The Croatian people came partly they as they told
24 us, had been living there before. They came back, and they acted
25 accordingly. When we confronted them that they would behave like
1 looters, they told us that the same happened to them, and we also had a
2 situation that we did not have enough translators and that we partly had
3 to work with translators who were employed with the Croatian side ..."
4 [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, have I -- am I interpreting this
5 statement correctly when we speak of the Croats who had lived in the
6 territory of the so-called Serbian Krajina and that when they returned to
7 their own homes, they actually took things from deserted Serbian homes in
8 order to be able to live a normal life, daily life at that time? Would
9 you agree with me?
10 A. No, I cannot fully agree because I said is only that some of the
11 people who we talked with them told us that they come back, but they
12 didn't say that they took anything from deserted Serbian homes because I
13 just that -- this was my house before so I just come back to my house,
14 but I didn't mention any details what they have took or if they have took
15 something that have been property to the Serbian population before.
16 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we please
17 have P68 on the screen, please? This is a summary of daily sitreps for
18 the period between the 4th of September to 4th of October, 1995.
19 Q. And while we wait for this to come up on the screens, I would
20 like to show you the portion on page 861 which states the following:
21 "On 12 September, an UNMO patrol in Mukinje ran into 6 men who
22 lived in the village. Three of those men said that during the offensive,
23 the first to come to the village were soldiers, Muslims, who looted
25 Do you have information about such instances, especially in the
1 border regions between the Republic of Croatia
2 that civilians came from Bosnia
3 and villages in the area?
4 A. No, I don't have.
5 Q. Alongside with soldiers?
6 A. No.
7 Q. In these same documents, there is the following:
8 "On the 9th, it was observed in Donji Lapac that soldiers bearing
9 BH insignia were helping the refugees from Bihac and loading on to trucks
10 with Bihac or Bosnia-Herzegovina plates to load cattle or other household
11 appliances that were left behind by Krajina Serbs."
12 Were you aware of the situation?
13 A. No, I was not in Donji Lapac. Of course I also meant sometimes
14 that the looters tried to -- to steal the cattle and I remember one case
15 when they tried to put a calf on the back of a Yugo car, I mean that
16 looks very funny, and I'm sure the car needed a cleaning afterwards.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you for your reply. Mr. Marti, were you
18 familiar with the evacuation plans put together by the authorities of the
19 Republic of Serbian Krajina and their implementation? I would like to
20 refer you here to the situation where you had columns of people leaving
21 the area of the Republic of Serbian Krajina after the Operation Storm
23 A. I was not informed about the details about this plan. The only
24 thing I was involved was when we had to collect these people, mainly in
25 the Plavno valley and Podinarje area for the evacuation after Operation
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, in your last question, you link plans
3 of evacuation and columns on roads you shouldn't mix that up in your
4 question, of course you can ask the witness whether he knows anything
5 about plans, we can ask him whether he has seen anything, we can even ask
6 him or draw ourselves conclusions as to what he saw was consistent, what
7 he knows about the plans, but try to keep matters clear and not to link
8 matters where the witness might not -- here there was no risk or at least
9 it didn't appear to be the case, but there's always a risk that witnesses
10 are confused by these composite questions and then we'll have to ...
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar,
13 could we have document 65 ter 005008 on the screens. This is a summary
14 of daily situation reports between the 7th of the August up until the 8th
15 of September 1995 which was in a certain sense authorised by Mr. Marti.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Authenticated - interpreter correction - by
17 Mr. Marti.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Marti, in the upper portion of the document that we cannot
20 see anymore, could the Registrar please scroll down a bit, in the upper
21 portion of the document, we can see PM and circled and written by hand.
22 Are these your initials?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. You don't remember. To clarify this for the Trial Chamber, this
25 is a document that is, I assume, identical to Exhibit P68 which was
1 introduced with Witness Kari Anttila and signed by him. However, I refer
2 to some portions of this document which are completely different both in
3 the pagination and also in the paragraph numbering when compared to the
4 document of Kari Anttila and in my future, I hope, brief questioning, I
5 will use this document although there may be some confusion because they
6 appear to be very similar but I am afraid that there are some differences
7 because the pages do not correspond and we received this document as an
8 annex to the document that the Prosecution used during the -- their
9 direct examination. This is just for clarification purposes?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, you earlier said that this document
11 was in a certain sense authorised by Mr. Marti or authenticated. What
12 was the basis for this.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: The initials PM in the upper right-hand corner.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. MIKULICIC: I thought that was kind of an authorisation by
16 the witness, Mr. Peter Marti.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what you should have done is to refrain
18 from telling what the case was and ask the witness which you did after
19 that and then he said that he didn't.
20 MR. MIKULICIC: Didn't.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
22 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] On page 118 of this document, I will quote a
24 section, the first one which refers to evacuation:
25 [In English] "At Sekanivrsak, we were informed that 71.200
1 refugees had used the checkpoint towards Banja Luka. Most of them had
2 come from Knin. On the way to that checkpoint, UNMOs observed a lot of
3 damaged trucks, cars, tractors and some goods abandoned along the road.
4 Some cars were smashed by tanks. UNMO asked the commander if he had seen
5 acts against civilians or RSK soldiers and were told this was not
6 possible because all the locals left before HV troops arrived. We also
7 were informed that on the evening of 6 August, the RSK attacked that
8 platoon and took some materials and fuel and they were using a UN APC
9 with a Red Cross symbol."
10 [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, are you familiar with this event? Do
11 you have any knowledge of it?
12 A. No, I don't have any knowledge of this event because it was not
13 observed from my team.
14 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I submit this
15 portion of the report, 65 ter 0508 for admission into evidence with one
16 reservation that it is possible that it has already been introduced as
17 part of Exhibit P65; and I think this is something I need to clear up
18 with my colleague from the Prosecution and with the Registrar, but I
19 would like to propose that it be entered into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
21 MR. WAESPI: Yes, perhaps if there are indeed differences between
22 P68 and this document, we don't object maybe that specific page to enter
23 as an exhibit and it's indeed correct that the witness has discussed this
24 Exhibit 0508 in his witness statement which is now P417 at paragraphs 65
25 and 66.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So it was this copy that he ...
2 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you very much, Mr. Waespi.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, you want to tender
4 only this portion, Mr. Mikulicic or the whole of the document?
5 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, there will be another few parts of
6 that document that I will be referring to in further conversation, then
7 maybe afterwards we could -- you could ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's easier since you are talking about
9 differences in page numbering and what appears on the cover page because
10 the witness answered questions about that as well that ...
11 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes. I have --
12 JUDGE ORIE: That we receive it in evidence in it's entirety.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay. I was just informed by Mr. Kehoe that in
14 P68, the paragraph that I'm referring to is on page 830, I'm referring to
15 the ERN numbers.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are referring to the ERN numbers. You did
17 that before when you referred to page 118.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: The different ERN numbers in that document as
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think if we refer to pages, the protocol
21 is that we refer to the pages within the document as uploaded in e-court
22 and that would be the fifth page out of 35 for this document.
23 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number to this?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D391.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D391 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,
2 Mr. Mikulicic.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And looking at the clock, I notice that you have 7
5 minutes left.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you for reminding me. I will do my best.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marti, in this same document, we can find
8 under the entry for the 28th of August, an event that relates to
9 something that happened in the village Musica Stanovi. This Trial
10 Chamber has already had occasion to hear that in this village, former
11 soldiers of the army of Serbian Krajina were found, to be more precise,
12 ten of them, and with the assistance of the special police, these
13 soldiers were taken to Knin.
14 Do you have any personal knowledge about this event, Mr. Marti?
15 A. Yes, I have some knowledge because the day before, me and
16 Alex Tchernetsky and me conducted a patrol, we wanted to proceed in this
17 area where this village is in Podinarje and -- but then we saw that
18 special -- by that time, we didn't know who was it but special unit was
19 conducting a kind of investigation in the area, we saw many armed people
20 going forwards to Podinarje area and then the next day, we conducted
21 another patrol specially to this area but me, myself, was not on this
22 patrol because I tasked Alex to do that patrol because me, I went in
23 another direction. And in the evening, Alex and the other team member
24 told me about the case what has happened, that means that this man wanted
25 to be handed out to the Croatian authorities.
1 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that when the special police
2 arrived in the village, these former soldiers of the army of the Serbian
3 Krajina surrendered to the special police with no weapons on them and at
4 the same time, the Croatian police, special police found in the vicinity
5 of this village, they found some weapons, a rifle and 6 AK-47 rifles,
6 automatic rifles?
7 A. No, I'm not aware of these details but I remember after that
8 case, there was one man and handed over, he said he's still afraid he has
9 hidden somewhere a gun and he handed over this weapon to Alex but that
10 was a single case. That was not during this case but he was afraid, he
11 didn't want to -- that somebody else found this gun and he handed over
12 this gun to Alex.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In order
14 to use the remaining time efficiently, I propose that pages 21 and 22
15 which refer to this event be introduced -- be tendered into evidence.
16 These are pages from the document 65 ter 00508.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, no objections?
18 Mr. Mikulicic, we admitted the whole of it but if there is any
19 specific reason why you want to have these two pages in addition to that.
20 MR. MIKULICIC: No, that's fine. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Now, to return to Exhibit P68 on page 36 of this exhibit, I will
24 read a portion of this document:
25 [In English] " ... info received," [Interpretation] this is an
1 entry dated the 13th of September [In English] "Info received on 8 Serb
2 soldiers who surrendered, the individuals are spread amongst the county
3 court in Split
4 [Interpretation] Are you aware of this event of the 13th of
5 September when eight soldiers surrendered, soldiers of the former army of
6 the Republic of Serbian
7 A. They surrendered where?
8 Q. [In English] It is written only "surrendered." [Interpretation]
9 So I don't know where they surrendered. I was just asking you whether
10 you knew about this event?
11 A. No, I only know about the surrendering in Podkonje.
12 Q. That was on the 28th of August and this was on the 13th of
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mikulicic. That's what the witness tells
16 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That he only knows about the other occasion. Please
19 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Let us proceed a bit more quickly. Are you
21 aware, Mr. Marti, of the fact that Croatian authorities, and I mean the
22 civilian and special police and the army, instances where they assisted
23 the local population which remained in their villages after Operation
25 A. Not very much. The only thing I note is that after a while, they
1 established this system that everybody should get a new Croatian ID card
2 and UN was helping to collect the remaining former Serb population and
3 bringing them either to Knin or to Gracac to collect this ID card.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, I'm looking at the clock.
5 Mr. Waespi, at this moment, would you need 14 minutes or could
6 you do it in 12?
7 MR. WAESPI: I do my best whatever time I have.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the same is for you, one last question,
9 Mr. Mikulicic.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will end up by tendering the
11 three incepts of this report from daily sitreps from 4 September until
12 4th October, and that is the examples of Croatian authorities to help the
13 Serb population remaining on their villages after Operation Storm, and I
14 am referring to page 35 of that document where it is said that:
15 "UNMO patrol met an old lady in Donji Lapac who returned to her
16 house on 10th September. And she states local police has given her
17 enough food and water supply as required. The police will fix the
18 electricity in her house on 13th September. She also informed UNMOs that
19 she has no problems with local police or Croatian army and she would like
20 to stay in Donji Lapac."
21 The other example is from the very same document, on page 28
22 where it is said, "UNMO patrol observed 8 Serbs in Mala Popina, all are
23 in good condition of health and were being helped with some food from two
24 officers of a special police unit." And to that purpose I am only
25 referring to the example which is written on page 34 in Selo Glogovo
1 where it says that on 8 September visited the village Glogovo and
2 provided food to Serbian civilians. Ten minutes after the patrol, a
3 Croatian police patrol arrived and also provided the people with food
4 which they stated they would be doing every second day."
5 JUDGE ORIE: These are portions of the document that has been
6 admitted what specific portions you would like to try and conclude.
7 MR. MIKULICIC: And that concludes my examination.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cayley, same as it was before.
9 MR. CAYLEY: It's the same position, Your Honour. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Mr. Waespi.
12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. In fact, Mr. Cayley
13 accedes the time he doesn't use to me.
14 If Exhibit P419 could be please be brought up.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Waespi:
16 Q. Mr. Marti, I would like to raise just a few issues in
17 re-examination. The first one relates back to the incidents of shelling
18 on the 30th of July, 1995, and you marked yesterday the area B where you
19 said the impact of the shells could be felt by you personally. Now, this
20 morning you were asked by Mr. Kehoe about facilities partially military,
21 partially MUP.
22 Now, can you locate on this map where, if you can, you thought
23 these facilities were located? And later mark it with letter E.
24 A. It must be on the right side of the street but I don't -- I'm not
25 sure if this map shows all the area. I would say here. I mean on the
1 right side of the street so ...
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have a protocol in this Tribunal -- in
4 this Trial Chamber that markings in blue are markings made at the request
5 of the Defence and markings in red are made at the request of the
6 Prosecution. So could we try to get -- which might not be easy because
7 the blue is overlapping the -- oh, yes, the original remains. Could we
8 now make this marking again but now in red, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it also moves a bit at the same time with the
11 colour. Now, in order to avoid whatever confusion, the question mark was
12 for the little circle and not for the larger one which is marked by an E,
13 capital E.
14 Mr. Waespi, any further marking needed?
15 MR. WAESPI: No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Registrar, the now again marked map on top
17 of the earlier marking will be ...
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P427, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I can take it there is no objection against
20 P427? Then P427 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Now witness I think you also testified that there were I think
23 five or six shells impacted in the area D; is that correct?
24 A. Near the building as a shelter. We didn't know when the fire
25 would stop so we just had to count.
1 Q. Thank you. At that time and given your experience in artillery
2 on mortar, did you form an impression as to what the purpose was of these
3 five to six
4 A. No, actually I -- according to my experience, I couldn't imagine
5 that with such a procedure, you try to hit any military target. I mean
6 if you are conducting artillery shelling, you have somewhere you have
7 artillery observer, he tells you -- he tells the artillery unit exactly
8 where they have to shoot and at least -- I mean in my experience as a
9 mortar commander after the third shot, you should hit the target and not
10 just shelling in different places. So me, I couldn't imagine by that
11 time that that is a shelling exactly guided on a military target. And by
12 the way, you still have to also to deal with what is around the military
13 target. Of course nowadays, it's just called collateral damages, but
14 that can also -- always means that this collateral damages are civilians.
15 Q. Let's move on to the next issue. You were quoted this morning by
16 Mr. Kehoe at page 34 from Colonel Hjertnes who said that there had been
17 difficult time for some of the UNMOs to objectively assessing the
19 In your personal opinion, were you one of the UNMOs who had
20 difficulties because they were emotionally affected by the shelling in
21 assessing the impact of the shelling?
22 A. I mean of course you are emotionally affected when the shelling
23 is so close to you then you think is there an artillery observer and if
24 he is observing, doesn't he see that there is a UN patrol on the way? So
25 that -- that was of course it can cause a lot of emotions when you are --
1 when you feel that you are near an artillery fire or almost under fire
3 Q. Did it affect your judgement in assessing the -- what you said
4 shelling of civilian targets in Knin?
5 A. My assessment about the shelling in Knin was that apart from this
6 as I have learned today, this HQ in Knin, that there was not a real
7 military target which you have to attack with artillery. I think I have
8 mentioned it before. I mean to attack something with artillery, that
9 means you must have a very large target and as a military commander, I
10 think you should also be quite sure that you don't hit anything which
11 doesn't belong to the target.
12 Q. Turning to the issue of the perpetrators, the identity of the
13 perpetrators, at page 43, you were asked about the difficulty to identify
14 these perpetrators. Now, would it be easier for the military police and
15 other law enforcement agencies, normal police, to identify perpetrators?
16 A. I'm sure --
17 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour, with all due respect, I don't
18 think he with speak for the military police, it would be easier for the
19 military police or the civilian police.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, the witness has clearly expressed where
21 his points of doubt were. He has done that even not once, but even twice
22 in his statement and then later asked the same questions again.
23 Now, to see whether others would have had it easier to do the
24 same thing might not be within the factual knowledge of this witness. So
25 therefore, if there's any factual elements you can ask him but not this
1 kind of opinion or judgement.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Now, you testified that you expected the Croatian authorities to
5 do more than what they did on the ground and there was also a question
6 put to you about orders that might have been issued from Zagreb. Now,
7 please tell the Court again what expectations you had at that time that
8 the Croatian authorities should have done to control these perpetrators.
9 A. My expectation were that on the main crossing points, they should
10 have -- they should by that time establish checkpoints. They should
11 control who is coming in from -- through Drnis or from Vrlika or
12 whatever, into the region and who is going back with which items took
13 from the area.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, I think the witness told us already
15 before the same thing. Please proceed.
16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. No further questions, Mr. President.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has no further questions. Has the
19 re-examination triggered any need for further questions?
20 MR. KEHOE: One question, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: One question, Mr. Kehoe.
22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
23 Q. With regard to the shelling at Strmica, you noted at in P417
24 paragraph 28 with regard to the shelling, you noted that "there was a
25 Serbian checkpoint nearby but I can't say what the target was meant to
1 be." Is that accurate you don't know what the target was meant to be
2 that was shot it, do you? If you can look at your statement, P417
3 paragraph 28?
4 A. In my opinion, the checkpoint is not a target for artillery
6 MR. KEHOE: Okay. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Marti, this concludes your evidence in this
8 court. I would like to thank you very much for having answered many,
9 many questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench and if I would
10 use your own language which I will now do, [German spoken].
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I just wished the witness a safe trip home again
13 which might not have come as a surprise to you.
14 We adjourn until tomorrow, the 11th of June, 9.00 in the morning,
15 Courtroom III and Mr. Waespi, the Chamber fears that on Thursday, we'll
16 have no witness and of course if the Chamber allots time to the
17 Prosecution to present evidence, and if then days are not used, then
18 we'll have to consider what the consequences are for the time allocated
19 to the Prosecution because the time is there although no evidence.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, we'll look into
21 that. We, as you know, still have two witnesses and -- but we -- yes,
22 indeed, anticipate that these will be two rather short witnesses and
23 we'll endeavour, perhaps, to find an additional witness.
24 Mr. Steenbergen is unfortunately unavailable to come already this
25 week. That's one attempt we made. And we'll continue doing that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. We stand adjourned until tomorrow
2 morning, 9.00.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th of June,
5 2008, at 9.00 a.m.