1 Thursday, 12 June 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom and those
6 assisting us just out of the courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Mr. Hedaraly, is the
12 Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
13 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, we are, Your Honour. The Prosecution would
14 like to call Witness 16, Mile Djuric.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher.
16 Perhaps, before the witness enters the courtroom, there is a
17 request to add three documents to the Rule 65 ter list. Are there any
18 objections against?
19 MR. MISETIC: I believe we filed last night our response. We
20 have no objections.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then the proposed new exhibits as we
22 find them in confidential appendix C to the motion that is series of
23 photographs showing location of incident, second series of documents
24 related to exhumation in Plavno on the 11th of December 2007, and
25 forensic analysis of mortar remains, permission is granted to add them to
1 the 65 ter list.
2 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Djuric. Can you hear me in a
5 language you understand?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, before you give evidence, the Rules of
8 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
9 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
10 text is now handed out to you by Mr. Usher. I would like to invite you
11 to make that solemn declaration.
12 WITNESS: MILE DJURIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Djuric. Please be seated.
17 Mr. Djuric, you will first be examined by Mr. Hedaraly who is
18 counsel for the Prosecution.
19 Mr. Hedaraly, you may proceed.
20 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djuric.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record?
25 A. My name is Mile Djuric.
1 Q. And where do you currently live?
2 A. I currently live in Belgrade
3 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter
4 number 5181, please.
5 Q. Mr. Djuric, do you recall providing a witness statement to the
6 Office of the Prosecutor on 25 September 2004?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. And if you look on your screen now, is that the witness statement
9 that you provided in September 2004?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. HEDARALY: And if we can have 65 ter 5182, please.
12 Q. And do you recall providing a supplemental witness statement to
13 the Office of the Prosecutor on 13 July 2007?
14 A. [No interpretation]
15 Q. And that statement will come up on the screen as well, and can
16 you confirm that that is the statement that you signed on 13 July 2007?
17 A. Yes, I can confirm.
18 Q. And, Mr. Djuric, did you have a chance to review these two
19 statements yesterday?
20 A. Yes, I have.
21 Q. Do these statements accurately reflect what you said to the
22 Office of the Prosecutor in the course of those interviews?
23 A. Yes, they do.
24 Q. And the contents of those statements that you signed are true to
25 the best of your knowledge and recollection?
1 A. Yes. This is all the things that I mentioned there I saw.
2 Q. And if you were asked the same questions by me today in court as
3 you were asked in those interviews, would you give the same answers?
4 A. Yes, I would.
5 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honours, at this time, I would like to have
6 65 ter 5181 and 5182 admitted into evidence pursuant to 92 ter.
7 MR. MISETIC: No objections, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You are speaking on behalf of all three Defence
10 Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 05181 becomes P436.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's the 2004 statement.
13 THE REGISTRAR: And 65 ter 05182, which is the 2007 statement,
14 becomes Exhibit P437.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P436 and P437 are admitted into evidence.
16 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 At this time, if we could also have 65 ter 1053 and 65 ter 1839
18 also be admitted. They are exhibits to the witness statement; and since
19 the statement is now in evidence, the foundation is there, so if we could
20 have those admitted as well, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And these are the -- the first one is the
22 death certificate of Sava Djuric, and the second one is the sketch of
23 witness Djuric describing the location of killing.
24 MR. HEDARALY: That's correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 MR. MISETIC: No objections.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the first document 65 ter 00151 --
3 sorry, could counsel please repeat the numbers.
4 MR. HEDARALY: 01053 is the death certificate, and 01839 is the
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 01053 becomes Exhibit P438;
7 65 ter number 01839 becomes Exhibit P439.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P438 and P439 are admitted into evidence.
9 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, I would like to read out a short
10 summary of the evidence contained in the two witness statements. I have
11 informed the witness, but I believe it will be helpful if the Chamber
12 also would explain the reasons for reading the summary.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Mr. Djuric, you have given statements. They are on paper. The
15 Chamber has read them. But since the public has no knowledge of what is
16 in there, Mr. Hedaraly will now just summarize your statement, so that
17 the public is informed as well, before he asks any further questions to
18 you about the content of your statements.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.
20 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you.
21 Mile Djuric was a Croatian citizen of Serb ethnicity who lived
22 with his family in the village of Plavno
23 August 1995. He spent his summers at a house up in the surrounding hills
24 in order to tend to his sheep and prepare wood for the winter. From this
25 vantage point in 1995, he observed the shelling of the Plavno area during
1 the first days of Operation Storm.
2 On 5 August 1995
3 to inform him that half of the villagers, including all the young
4 persons, had left, and she tried to convince her son to join them. Mile
5 Djuric refused to flee because he didn't feel in danger and didn't want
6 to leave his family behind.
7 The next day, Sunday, the 6th of August, the witness went to his
8 family house in Djurici and had lunch with his parents, sister, and
9 grandmother. At around 4.00 in the afternoon, he left his family house
10 with the intention of buying cigarettes in a store located about 1.5
11 kilometres away from the family house and then return to his summer
12 house. On his way back from the shop, he noticed a group of Croatian
13 soldiers in camouflage uniforms and escaped their attention by taking a
14 detour through the forest.
15 As he realised that his family house had been put on fire, he
16 decided to go back to Djurici. He entered the neighbour's backyard and
17 watched the events hidden behind a short wall. From this location, Mile
18 Djuric saw three soldiers with camouflage uniforms and black masks
19 standing in the backyard of his house, together with his grandmother and
20 his father.
21 The witness's father, Sava Djuric, was wearing civilian clothes
22 on that day. He was disabled and could only walk very slowly because of
23 an accident that had occurred when he was a child. The witness states
24 seeing that one of the soldiers was holding his grandmother and told the
25 other two soldiers to throw the man into the fire. To this, the
1 grandmother protested that there was no need to kill her son, since they
2 had already burned the house, but the soldier holding her instructed the
3 others: "I am taking the grandmother to the end of the village, and by
4 the time she comes back, everything will be burned. Throw him in the
6 After the grandmother was taken away, Mile Djuric witnessed the
7 two remaining soldiers throwing his father in the burning workshop and
8 locking the door.
9 The witness fled to his summer house. On the way, he came across
10 a different group of soldiers wearing the same camouflage uniform who
11 started shooting at him. He escaped and finally managed to reach the
12 summer house. The next morning, the witness left for Serbia together
13 with two friends. He arrived in Belgrade about three weeks later, at the
14 end of August 1995, and has lived there ever since.
15 This concludes my summary, Your Honours.
16 Q. Mr. Djuric, I now want to just ask you a few questions to clarify
17 what was in your statements that I just summarised. Can you please
18 describe for us generally where your summer house was located?
19 A. It was on a hill between Strmica and Plavno.
20 Q. And how far was your summer house from Strmica?
21 A. About three kilometres. Strmica was even closer to the summer
22 house than Djurici, my village.
23 Q. And before the beginning of Operation Storm, did you hear or see
24 shells falling near your summer house?
25 A. Shells fell eight days earlier after -- well, after the fall of
1 Grahovo, they were falling every day from before eight days or maybe even
2 ten. I'm not sure.
3 Q. And when you say that shells were falling every day, can you give
4 us an estimate of how many shells would fall in those days?
5 A. Those days, few shells fell, perhaps ten to 15 a day, not many,
6 and those shells came from the Bosnian side.
7 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who was firing those shells?
8 A. The Croatian army fired the shells. They had taken Grahovo.
9 Grahovo fell before Krajina some eight to ten days, and the Serbian army
11 Q. Let me just change your focus now on when you left the house the
12 first time after you had lunch. You said that you saw your family house
13 in Djurici on fire and that's when you decided to go back. Can you tell
14 the Court where you were when you saw your house on fire?
15 A. I saw the house on fire on my way back, about halfway back home.
16 Q. Was this before or after you stopped to pick up the cigarettes?
17 A. It was on my way back. So I bought cigarettes and then I was on
18 the way back to this other house; and then halfway there, I saw that the
19 house was burning. So then I headed for the house again; although, I did
20 not intend to go back home. I was headed -- I was heading for the hill.
21 Q. Before you saw your house on fire on your way back, did you turn
22 around to see if your house was on fire?
23 A. I was watching the house from the centre, from downtown, where I
24 was at the shop; and as I watched then, nothing was burning. But as I
25 headed for the hill, then I saw smoke, then I went up higher up the hill,
1 and then I could see that the house was on fire and the workshop.
2 Q. And how long did it take you to come back and see the house and
3 the workshop on fire?
4 A. From the time when I saw the house burning, it took me about ten
5 minutes. After about ten minutes, I was at home.
6 Q. And what was the -- what was the extent of the burning after ten
7 minutes when you came back?
8 A. When I reached the house, the roof tiles had already started
9 falling down and the workshop had been burned down.
10 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to why the fire started so quickly
11 after ten minutes or so?
12 A. Well, I don't know. It was all made of wood, and my grandmother
13 told me that they used some spray, that they had a bottle of some sort
14 that they threw into the workshop. What it was, I don't know, but this
15 is what my grandmother saw.
16 Q. Mr. Djuric, I want to ask you a few questions now with respect to
17 your father, Sava Djuric. Was your father a member of the army of the
19 A. No. He was handicapped and he was not in the army. He didn't
20 even serve in the army as a conscript. He was not capable. He was
22 Q. And can you describe very briefly how it is that he was
23 handicapped? How did he become handicapped?
24 A. He was unfit. He could not walk properly, even since his
25 childhood, and we used to say that it's because of the cold water. But
1 as he grew older, it was more and more difficult, and his legs just could
2 not support him. So he did not move, he did not venture far away from
3 the house.
4 Q. In your statement, you say that his handicap was a result of an
5 accident when he was a child. Do you know what that accident was?
6 A. Well, it was an accident. He swam or was bathed in cold water,
7 and I don't know what the disease was called. But from what our
8 grandmother told us, she had taken him to the doctor. I don't know what
9 kind of disease it was, some sort of paralysis. I'm not sure. But when
10 he was young, he managed to get married and have a regular life. But as
11 he grew older, he had more difficulty walking. I don't know how to
12 explain it.
13 Q. That's fine. Thank you. That's helpful.
14 MR. HEDARALY: Can we have 65 ter 5183, please, which is a series
15 of pictures taken in your hamlet. If we can Mr. Usher's assistance to
16 help the witness mark some of these pictures as we go through them.
17 Q. Mr. Djuric, do you see that -- this picture on the screen in
18 front of you?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And can you tell the Court what this represents?
21 A. This is the photo of my village.
22 Q. Can you see your house in that photo?
23 A. Yes, I can see it.
24 Q. Could you please circle it with the pen with the assistance of
25 the usher?
1 A. [Marks]
2 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you. Mr. Registrar, if we have that picture
3 saved, and move on to the next page of this document.
4 Q. It just takes a few seconds for the system to be able to save
5 your marking, that's why we are --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, the photographs are under one exhibit
7 number, the whole series.
8 MR. HEDARALY: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to have the marked series as a whole
10 under one number as well?
11 MR. HEDARALY: I think that would be more convenient, Your
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. HEDARALY: Whenever we're ready, if we can move to the next
16 Q. Mr. Djuric, do you see this picture now in front of you?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And can you confirm that on the left side, the red gate that we
19 see with one door closed and one door open, that's the gate to the
20 backyard of your house in Djurici; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Behind that, we see a portion of your house; is that right?
23 A. That's right.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, is there any way in using the curser
25 to point more precisely?
1 MR. HEDARALY: Of course.
2 Q. Can you please use the cursor, not to mark it, but just use the
3 cursor and point on where the gate is to the entrance of your backyard?
4 JUDGE ORIE: If the usher could assist the witness to point at
5 where the gate is.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the gate and this is house.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Someone should move the cursor in such a way that we
8 draw the attention of the witness to the --
9 MR. HEDARALY: I think he has to point with the pen.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think it's --
11 MR. HEDARALY:
12 Q. The cursor now is on your house; is that right? You see the
13 little arrow on the screen, and that's your house?
14 A. Yes. Now the cursor was on the gate and now it's on the house.
15 MR. HEDARALY: Can we go back on the gate, please.
16 Q. And that's the gate?
17 A. That's the gate.
18 Q. Now, can you mark in red for the Court where you were standing
19 when you observed the incidents that are described in your statement.
20 And you can explain also where you were, if you want to, in words, in
22 A. I can also explain in words. I was next to this house, the
23 neighbour's house. Again, I was leaning against the wall of the house.
24 This house was -- had a fence, a wall fence, a stone fence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please assist the witness in marking where
1 exactly he stood when he observed the events.
2 MR. HEDARALY:
3 Q. Can you please make an "X" as to where you were standing on this
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher shows the witness how he can mark the
7 Mr. Usher, the red pen, and then you can do that on the screen.
8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness marks with an "X."
10 MR. HEDARALY: Yes. If we can have that saved, please, and then
11 move to the next picture.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: I have no objections, Your Honour, but I think it
14 would be convenient if we could be advised as when those pictures were
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
17 MR. HEDARALY: Yes. Those pictures were taken last year, and
18 there will be a few more pictures that will be shown in this series that
19 were taken earlier this year. So they were all taken in the last year.
20 Is there any other clarification that is being sought?
21 Q. Mr. Djuric, the picture you see now is a view of this gate we
22 just saw earlier and your house in the background. Is this roughly the
23 view that you had of the incident, or were you closer or further or to
24 the right or to the left of the view that you have on this picture?
25 A. This is my gate, and I was behind the wall that you can see on
1 the photograph on the right-hand side.
2 Q. Can you please show us where the wall is with the cursor?
3 MR. HEDARALY: Can I have Mr. Usher's assistance to help the
4 witness to point the cursor to where the witness says we can see a wall
5 on the picture?
6 JUDGE ORIE: The cursor is not in the hands of the witness.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, this is the wall where I was
8 behind it.
9 MR. HEDARALY:
10 Q. Can you mark that with an "X" as well, please, in red.
11 A. [Marks]
12 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you.
13 Can we have that saved then and move to the next page, please,
14 and then to the next page, Mr. Registrar.
15 For Mr. Mikulicic, the previous picture, this picture, and the
16 next one were taken earlier this year, in March 2008, I believe.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Djuric, this is the -- this is your backyard; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you identify for the Court with the pen, can you circle the
20 entrance of that workshop where you saw your father being thrown in?
21 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
22 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you. Can we have that saved as well, and we
23 can go to the last page.
24 Q. That's just the same picture with your house and the yard from a
25 different perspective; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, if we could have this series of
3 pictures, 5183, as marked by the witness, marked and identified and
4 admitted into evidence as one exhibit, please.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, we went now through the whole of the
7 series, at least one of the photographs not being marked by the witness.
8 Do you want to have the whole series now under this new exhibit number or
9 only those photographs that were marked by the witness?
10 MR. HEDARALY: I would like to have the whole series, including
11 the two unmarked ones and the four marked ones.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P440.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P440. Any objections? No objections.
15 P440 is admitted into evidence.
16 MR. HEDARALY:
17 Q. Mr. Djuric, in your statement, you mention, and it was in your
18 summary as well, that you heard some exchange between the Croatian
19 soldiers and your grandmother when you were hiding behind that wall.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you please tell us if you heard anything else being said by
22 your grandmother or by the soldiers beyond what was in your statement?
23 A. I came late, but I heard that; and then later, after everything
24 that I had told you about, my grandmother was wailing so loud that I
25 couldn't hear anything after that. When she saw that they wanted to
1 throw him into the fire, she began to wail. Up until then, she was
2 silent. It was quiet. I don't know what they were saying before I came
4 Q. Now, Mr. Djuric, in your statements, and you heard in the summary
5 as well, you're here to testify and you observed your father being thrown
6 into the workshop by some soldiers. Now, I have to ask you this next
7 question, and it's not meant to offend you in any way, but there have
8 been allegations made by the Defence --
9 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the question.
10 I don't think he has a right to put the Defence case to the witness on
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, if you just put the question without
13 what caused you to put this question.
14 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, I believe that if I just asked the
15 question without the proper rationale for the question, the question will
16 not be understood.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you put the question, if the witness doesn't
18 understand, then we'll find out and then we'll see how to proceed.
19 MR. MISETIC: Let me also reiterate that regardless of how he
20 phrases the question, if it's not something that he intends to put in as
21 part of the Prosecution's case, I don't think it's proper on direct to
22 start putting questions in anticipation of the Defence cross-examination
23 of the witness. He can wait until redirect to do that, but it's
24 certainly improper, particularly under Rule 90, to put the other party's
25 case to the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, there are several ways of asking
2 questions. You can do it in a positive way, you can seek confirmation of
3 something, or you can seek confirmation of something not being there.
4 There are several ways. Let's first see wait and see how Mr. Hedaraly
5 phrases his question.
6 Mr. Hedaraly.
7 Mr. Djuric, just ignore what we all said, that's lawyer's
8 language. Listen to the question Mr. Hedaraly will put to you.
9 MR. HEDARALY:
10 Q. Mr. Djuric, once again, I don't want to offend you, but I have to
11 ask your question this way now: Is your father still alive today?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are you absolutely certain of what you saw that day that when you
14 saw your father being thrown in the burning workshop?
15 A. Yes. I was there, and everything that I told you about I saw
16 myself. I didn't tell you about anything other than what I, myself, saw
17 and heard.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honours, at this time, I would like to move
20 from the bar table 65 ter 5184 and 65 ter 5185. 5184 is a report by an
21 OTP investigator of the exhumation in Plavno of the remains of Sava
22 Djuric, and the related photographs. And 5185 is the forensic analysis
23 of these remains that were conducted pursuant to the request from the
24 OTP. And just to briefly summarize, the results are that the remains
25 were too severely burnt to be able to extract any DMA to positively
1 identify the remains, but it confirms that they were human remains.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections.
3 MR. MISETIC: No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 05184 becomes P441. 65 ter
6 05185 becomes Exhibit P442.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P441 and P442 are admitted into evidence.
8 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you very much, Mr. Djuric. You will now be
9 asked questions by the other lawyers.
10 Your Honour, that concludes my examination.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.
12 Mr. Misetic, may I take it from the position of the lectern that
13 you will be the first one who will cross-examine the witness.
14 MR. MISETIC: Correct, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, will you now be cross-examined by
16 Mr. Misetic who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djuric.
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 Q. Let me start by asking, are you able to see the witness
21 statements, your previous witness statements?
22 MR. MISETIC: Does he have a copy, Counsel?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, I take it that you provided a witness
24 statement in the language of the witness.
25 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Counsel.
3 Q. Are you able to see those statements, sir?
4 A. Yes, I see it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, we are dealing with two statements.
6 Could you please take care that if Mr. Misetic asks something about one
7 of the statements, that the right statement is in front of the witness.
8 MR. MISETIC: I won't be using them at the moment. If I need to,
9 I'll ask the usher to assist him.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
11 MR. MISETIC:
12 Q. Are you able to see me?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you see the Judges?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where were you on the 4th of August, Mr. Djuric?
17 A. I was at the house on the hill.
18 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 1D32-0005,
20 Q. Are you able to see this map, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you need any glasses for assistance?
23 A. No, no, no. I don't need them. I can see everything clearly.
24 Q. Okay. Now, you see from this map, sir, the village of Djurici
25 in the middle off towards the left a little bit, and up in the upper
1 right-hand corner is a place called Djurica Previja. Is that where your
2 summer house was located?
3 A. Below Previja, perhaps 100 metres; then from the mark, there is
4 Djurica Previja; so then from that house, maybe another 30 metres or so.
5 Q. So, roughly, as the crow flies, it's about 3.000 metres from the
6 village of Djurici to the house that you were at on the 4th, is that
7 accurate, at least according to this map?
8 A. Yes, approximately that much, yes.
9 Q. Now, you see the circle at the bottom of the page, it says
10 Basinac? That's the --
11 A. Yes. That was the centre.
12 Q. That's the place that you say you went to get some cigarettes; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would ask that this exhibit be
16 marked, and I tender it into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
18 MR. HEDARALY: No objections.
19 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D396.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D396 is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, I apologise. Can we go to page 4 of
24 this exhibit.
25 Q. Mr. Djuric, are you aware or were you aware on the 4th of where
1 the Golubic army depot was?
2 A. I knew where the army depot was. It was what they called
3 "Dousnica." But the Golubic depot was far from my house.
4 Q. How far?
5 A. Fifteen kilometres away, at least.
6 Q. Now, you said, in your 2007 statement at paragraph 8, that two
7 men in military uniform came to your house several days after Operation
8 Storm. You knew one them from the village before. "They were fleeing
9 from the front line. They left their rifles at my house and we left
11 And in your 2004 statement, at paragraph 8, you refer to these
12 same men as your "friends."
13 Can you tell us a little bit how these men were your friends or
14 why they were your friends?
15 A. They were people from Strmica, not from my village; and they were
16 passing by my house, that's what the path was, the road that they took.
17 That's how I came to see them.
18 Q. Well, in your statement, you say that one of them was from your
20 A. No, no. None of them was from my village. Both of them were
21 from Strmica. I don't know how that was written. One of them I happen
22 to know from before the war. I knew him from Knin.
23 Q. What were their names?
24 A. One of them was called Sinisa, and the other one was nicknamed
25 "Cikan." I don't know what his first name was. The other one was
1 Sinisa. I'm not sure about the last name.
2 Q. So they were going up into your -- into the area of your summer
3 house and were taking that route to escape?
4 A. Yes. That was the way out from the village, and it went by my
6 Q. Which village?
7 A. The road that they took, what we were looking at earlier on the
8 map, Djurica Previja, that was the crossing of the road from Strmica to
10 Q. Now, you, yourself, on direct questions from the Prosecutor this
11 morning, seemed to have some knowledge of what had happened in Grahovo a
12 few days before. You even claimed to know that it was the HV that were
13 shelling Strmica. How would you know who was shelling? How would you
14 know what was going on in Bosansko Grahovo?
15 A. How could I not know? When I was on the hill and across was
16 Bosansko Grahovo, and the Serbian army had withdrawn from Grahovo and the
17 Croatian army had entered Grahovo.
18 Q. Were you keeping watch up in that hill?
19 A. No. I was not keeping watch. I was looking after my sheep.
20 Q. Now, your statement, sir, says that you spent the entire day of
21 the 4th and the entire day of the 5th up in the hill at Djurici Previja?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spent half a year there at times;
24 and before that, I went home. In that period, I would come home for half
25 an hour and then I would go back to the house on the hill. That was my
1 job. I was simply there every day even before Storm. I was there for
2 years. I built that house myself.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, could you always draw the attention of
4 the Chamber to which paragraph of which statement, because you earlier
5 quoted one of the statements as being one of them being "from my
6 village," where the statement says that the witness knew one of them
7 "from the village" which is slightly different.
8 So could you, whenever you take the witness to his statement,
9 inform the Chamber which part exactly. And now for the last question, it
10 was the 4th and the 5th, the entire day was what part of the statement
12 MR. MISETIC: Just one moment, Your Honour.
13 MR. HEDARALY: I think that it's paragraphs 3 and 4 in the
14 supplemental statement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: 3 and 4 in the supplemental statement.
16 MR. HEDARALY: Paragraph 3 talks about the 4th and paragraph 4
17 about the 5th.
18 MR. MISETIC: He says his mother went up to see him on the 5th.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What these paragraphs say is that he was on these
20 days at that location. It doesn't say anything about the entire day and
21 staying there for all of the time.
22 MR. MISETIC: It also doesn't say that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: No. You say: "Your statement says that you were
24 there the entire day of the 4th and the entire day of the 5th."
25 That's not what the statement says. The statement says that he
1 was there, and that his mother came to visit him. I do not know whether
2 he left that place for one hour or three hours and then returned. Let's
3 be very precise in quoting from statements of witnesses.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. MISETIC:
6 Q. Sir, you spent the entire day of the 4th and the 5th in the
7 summer house; is that correct?
8 A. I was at the summer house not only then, but all the time. My
9 mother would come to see me all the time regularly. And then when she
10 came that time, she told me that I should flee and that all the people
11 from the village had already ran away.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I ask now: You are talking about two days,
13 the 4th and the 5th. Did you stay the entire day of the 4th at the
14 summer house and did you stay the entire day of the 5th at the summer
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 4th, I was at the summer
17 house alone. My mother didn't come that day.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And you stayed there at the summer house the whole
19 of that day?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, every day including that day.
21 I had things to do. I was working.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. MISETIC:
24 Q. Is the same true for the 5th, sir, you spent the entire day of
25 the 5th in your summer house?
1 A. Yes. I was there that whole day. My mother came to see me, then
2 I went home. Maybe I was there for ten or 15 minutes, I ate, and then I
3 went back.
4 Q. What I'm wondering, sir, is your statement says that you heard
5 shelling, why you didn't go back to your family's village in Djurici on
6 the 4th?
7 A. The shelling went on for eight to ten days of the house on the
8 hill before Oluja began. I had no idea what was going on at Plavno. The
9 only things I knew were what my mother told me what was going on there.
10 That's all.
11 Q. Okay. And when your mother came up to visit you on the 5th, you
12 didn't go back down with your mother to the village after she told you
13 that all the villagers were leaving.
14 A. Correct. I didn't go down with her. I sent her home. I told
15 her that I did not intend to flee because she was telling me that
16 everyone had left and that I needed to flee, too. Then she returned
17 home. I went home after that to see what was going on, and then I went
18 back again. We didn't go home together.
19 Q. You were aware that there was a general mobilisation order issued
20 by the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina for all military-aged men in
21 the days leading up to Operation Storm; is that correct?
22 A. I had nothing to do with the soldiers. All I had was a radio
23 that I listened to. I was not in contact with the army or with the
24 village practically. That was all the information I had from the radio.
25 Q. Can you -- do you have an explanation as to why you, who at the
1 time was 29 years old --
2 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, it's clearly in the statement at
3 paragraph 2.
4 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'd ask that he not coach the witness
5 with an objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic is entitled to put this question to the
8 MR. MISETIC:
9 Q. Sir, do you have an explanation for why you, as a 29-year-old
10 male, claim that you weren't mobilised by the ARSK?
11 A. I am unfit for service. I didn't serve the regular term of duty
12 in the JNA. I was not a military conscript. I don't know how to put it.
13 Q. Your statement, when you were asked that question by the
14 Prosecution, you said you weren't conscripted because you have an eye
15 problem, which is why I asked you a series of questions at the beginning
16 regarding your ability to see the statement, to see me, see the Judges.
17 You don't appear to have an eye problem.
18 A. I do have a problem with my eyes, and this is evident. Perhaps
19 you don't notice it. I went for recruitment in Split in 1983, and it
20 says in my military booklet, that I'm unfit to serve the military term of
22 Q. Now, when you heard your mother telling you that young people
23 were leaving - and let me find it in the statement - in paragraph 4 of
24 the 2007 statement, it says: "My mother was pressuring me to leave
25 because all the young persons had left." When she was saying "young
1 persons," did you understand that to be military-aged persons were
3 A. Not just that. I went down home. The whole village had left.
4 Perhaps some ten of them were left behind, not military conscripts or
5 anything like that. Everyone has a tractor, a truck, a car, and they all
6 put whatever they had in the vehicle and they left. That was it.
7 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could call up 1D32-0019,
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone
10 to his right. Thank you.
11 MR. MISETIC:
12 Q. Sir, I'm going to show you the statement that your mother gave to
13 the Office of the Prosecutor in 1998 and ask you a series of questions
14 about this.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
16 MR. HEDARALY: I mean, I'm just worried about showing him a
17 statement that may suggest answers. If he asks the questions before and
18 if the answer is different, then he can maybe put the statement of the
19 other witness and explore any inconsistency. But to start by showing the
20 statement and telling him that's what that person said, I think that's
21 highly suggestive and I don't think that would be of assistance to the
23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, it's cross-examination. We've done it
24 repeatedly throughout the trial, and it's actually to confront the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if there is any matter which is not yet
2 dealt with by his own statement, then first ask the question. I do not
3 know what you --
4 MR. MISETIC: They are from two different perspectives, and I
5 would like to have him explain why they are two different.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if it is a matter which is also in his
7 statement he has given, then we could immediately proceed to confronting
8 the witness to any statement which is not consistent with his. If,
9 however, the matter has not been dealt with yet in his own statement,
10 then first put the relevant questions to the witness and then confront
11 him if there's any inconsistency.
12 MR. MISETIC: This concerns the 5th, and I believe it was put to
13 him, which is why now I would like to seek his clarification as to why
14 the discrepancies.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think my guidance was clear. If the matter
16 is already clear here in his statement what he stated on that subject --
17 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- matter, then you can immediately move on if
19 that's the case; and if it's not the case, then you should first put the
20 questions to the witness --
21 MR. MISETIC: I believe --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- without confrontation.
23 MR. MISETIC: I believe all the matters are clear from the
24 statement. But, obviously, if Your Honour feels differently --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you thought that the entire day of the
1 4th and the 5th was also very clear, and it was not in the statement.
2 And at least for the 5th, it turned out to be not fully accurate.
3 I leave it to you at this moment.
4 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to you at this moment. We'll see.
6 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 2 of this statement.
7 Q. First, I would just like to point out to you that she gave this
8 statement in April of 1998. And in the first paragraph, she indicates
9 that at that time she's living with your grandmother, you, and your
10 sister in a small one bedroom house in Barajevo.
11 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to page 3 of the statement,
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. She lived -- both the
14 grandmother and my mother and sister lived in with me, but that's close
15 to Barajevo.
16 MR. MISETIC:
17 Q. Now, on the top of that --
18 MR. MISETIC: Let me see in B/C/S.
19 Q. For the events on the 5th of August, she says: "The first thing
20 I remember is the shelling in the Plavno area. My family and I were too
21 afraid to leave our homes."
22 She goes on to say: "From my window, I saw the home of Sava
23 Bucic being hit by a grenade; and after the grenade landed, I saw small
24 pieces grenades flying in all directions."
25 MR. MISETIC: It's page 2 of the B/C/S, second paragraph.
1 Q. Now, she makes no reference to having travelled seven kilometres,
2 approximately, or six, up to visit you and coming back, and having a
3 perspective as to what's going on --
4 MR. HEDARALY: I object, Your Honour. I mean, now he's
5 impeaching him with the statement of another witness. I think what we
6 see in the other statement, in paragraph 7, she talks about that --
7 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour --
8 MR. HEDARALY: [Overlapping speakers]... impeach him. He cannot
9 mislead the witness that way.
10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, this is completely improper --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, Mr. Misetic may proceed with this line
12 of questioning.
13 MR. MISETIC:
14 Q. Sir, your mother, in her 1998 statement, made no mention of
15 travelling six or seven kilometres by foot to see you in the village.
16 Can you explain why she had, at least in 1998, no recollection of having
17 travelled that distance?
18 A. Yes, I can explain. I will answer both your questions. The
19 house that my mother mentioned was not hit by a shell; it was hit by a
20 tank shell, a tank projectile. This house below my house was hit by a
22 As for my mother and her statement, she's an elderly woman, and
23 to begin with, she's illiterate. Secondly, I state here firmly that my
24 mother came every day up to that house on the hill. She prepared food
25 for me, so she was there every day with me. What she saw in the village,
1 I don't know, but the house that -- indeed, the only thing I saw was the
2 house that was hit by that grenade or rocket.
3 Q. Just following up on that question. How do you know the
4 difference between a house that was hit by an artillery shell versus a
5 house that was hit by a tank shell?
6 A. There was no chance that the shell would fall on my village
7 Djurici because it was at the foot of the hill and all the shells
8 actually flew over.
9 Q. My question is -- you say you did no compulsory military service.
10 My question is: How did you know how to distinguish between an artillery
11 shell hitting a house and a tank shell hitting a house?
12 A. I heard that from my mother, and from many other people who were
13 there, who told me about the tank getting to the village and then what it
14 had hit. And I, myself, know that the shells, which landed around the
15 village on the field, that they could not fall on the village.
16 Q. Let's move on. Your mother's statement talks about the 6th. It
17 says: "On 6 August 1995
18 with my daughter and the following persons to the basement of my house:"
19 She identifies the individuals: "All these persons have the same family
20 name of Djuric." Your name is not there. The next paragraph says --
21 MR. MISETIC: And it's the next page of the B/C/S, please.
22 Q. "My husband and mother-in-law did not come to our basement but
23 remained in our kitchen. At 5.00 p.m., we came out of the basement and
24 we saw that my house was still burning. You entered the basement from a
25 door outside our home."
1 Your testimony, however, is that on the 6th, you were having
2 lunch with your family?
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Your mother says, in her statement, that she went into the
5 basement on 8.00 a.m.
6 A. Not only my mother, they were all in the basement. Only my
7 father wouldn't go down there and the grandmother. And they did have
8 lunch together with me - I think I said this in my statement - at around
9 3.00. My father wouldn't go down to the basement. He went back to the
10 workshop; whereas, they returned to the basement. They spent the whole
11 day there, but they came out to have lunch.
12 Q. Okay. You note that your mother makes no mention of having seen
13 you on the 6th, and actually identified by name the people who she
14 actually spent time with in the basement.
15 Let me move on to the bottom paragraph here.
16 The last sentence in the English version is, on page 3, says:
17 "My mother-in-law said that as she was being taken away by one Croat
18 soldier, she saw another Croatian soldier force my husband into our
19 burning house."
20 MR. MISETIC: If you go to the next page, please. B/C/S, page 3.
21 "I have not seen my husband since and I believe that he was burnt
22 in our home. Later, when I returned to our home, I saw white ash. I
23 believe those ashes to be the remains of my husband as we didn't find a
24 single bone."
25 Now, my question for you, sir, is, in her statement, your mother
1 appears to be relying on what your grandmother told her, yet at the
2 beginning of the statement, she says she lives with you.
3 So my question is: If, in fact, you were an eye witness to this
4 event, do you have an explanation as to why your mother wouldn't have
5 said: My son was there, he saw the whole thing happen, here's what
7 A. I don't know. I've never read what my mother said in her
8 statement, nor did I tell anyone that I saw this, that I observed it.
9 Q. In the three years between August 1995 and April of 1998, is your
10 testimony that you never told your mother that you were an eye witness to
11 the alleged killing of your father?
12 A. No.
13 Q. No, you didn't tell her?
14 A. No. I didn't tell her, nor did I tell anyone else. I had no
15 intention of talking about this but the grandmother knew that I was
16 there. The grandmother prepared every evening food because they thought
17 I would come in the evening to eat.
18 Q. Did your mother tell you that, at any time after you were
19 reunited in Serbia
20 indicated on the 1998 statement?
21 A. I saw my mother a year later, a year after the incident, and the
22 only thing she told me was that they collected whatever remains of bones
23 there were and put them in a shoe box, and that they buried this in the
24 family grave in the graveyard.
25 Q. Did your mother ever tell you that she and the other remaining
1 villagers had assumed that your father had fled with you on the 5th of
3 A. He could not flee with me.
4 Q. But did she tell you that she and the other villagers thought
5 that your father had fled with you on the 5th of August?
6 A. Well, there's nothing to assume or to think, because the
7 grandmother knew that he had burned and that's why they went looking for
8 bones in the workshop.
9 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, with respect to the witness statement
10 on the screen, I'd ask that it be marked for identification, and we will
11 await according to the procedures that we've established for a 92 ter
12 with respect to that statement.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D397, marked
15 for identification.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D32-0028, please.
18 Q. Just to point out, this is another villager.
19 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to paragraph 2, please.
20 MR. HEDARALY: Can we go into private session, Your Honour,
22 MR. MISETIC: Sorry, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Move into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 4869-4870 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 MR. MISETIC: One note, with respect to that statement, if we
6 could MFI that, and also wait for the 92 ter statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The statement that was shown to the witness in
8 private session, Mr. Registrar, could you --
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes D398, marked for
10 identification and under seal.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. MISETIC:
14 Q. Did you see, in addition to the two men you identified in your
15 statement as travelling through the area of your summer home, did you see
16 any other ARSK soldiers in the area on the 4th or the 5th of August?
17 A. I saw many people and many soldiers. This was the way where they
18 crossed over. But troops, as groups, I did not see. I saw individual
19 soldiers crossing over, and I saw a lot of women. These were people who
20 were crossing over because they didn't have any transportation means, and
21 the only way they could walk and get to Bosnia was through there.
22 Q. Sir, is it possible that your father's house was set on fire as a
23 result of shelling in pursuit of the individuals that were attempting to
24 flee into the area over the mountains?
25 A. Could you please repeat the question? I haven't understood it.
1 Q. Is it possible that the fire that you say you saw from -- as you
2 were buying cigarettes, that that fire was caused by shelling as the HV
3 was pursuing ARSK soldiers out the path that you've identified earlier in
4 your testimony?
5 A. I've already said that not a single shell landed on Djurici. The
6 ones that came from the Bosnian side, they all flew over. So it couldn't
7 cause any fire. No shells could cause any fire because not a single
8 shell landed on the village.
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic. Other Defence teams,
12 Mr. Mikulicic?
13 MR. MIKULICIC: We have no questions, Your Honour.
14 You have no questions.
15 Then for the Cermak Defence?
16 MR. CAYLEY: Same position, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Same position.
18 Mr. Hedaraly, is there any need to ask any questions in redirect.
19 MR. HEDARALY: Very briefly, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. HEDARALY: I would ask for the Chamber's guidance.
22 Mr. Misetic showed a statement of another witness to impeach, saying that
23 that witness said he never came to visit. That same witness gave a
24 witness in 2007, where she said: "The following day, he came to a house
25 in the village. I don't know how to --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you've said it already, Mr. Hedaraly. You
2 at least could have asked the Chamber to instruct the witness to take his
3 earphones off.
4 MR. HEDARALY: I apologise.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That would have been the least thing you could have
7 What you are actually asking us is guidance to the extent that
8 where you say this witness was confronted with a statement of another
9 person, which is not consistent with what he said, and now you say this
10 was not a complete confrontation because that witness gave other
11 statements in which the same matter is dealt with, but then at least in
12 your view not in a consistent way.
13 Mr. Misetic.
14 MR. MISETIC: Following the Chamber's guidance, if we could ask
15 the witness to take his earphones off.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I expressed myself in very abstract terms, as
17 you may have noted.
18 Mr. Djuric, could you take your earphones off for a while?
19 Yes. I have not asked the witness whether he understands any
20 English, but the risk seems to be limited unless you request me to.
21 MR. MISETIC: No, I don't, Your Honour.
22 With respect to that statement, I'm aware of the statement;
23 however, Mr. Hedaraly was also the interviewer for that statement. And
24 just if we can clarify, before we put it to the witness, whether the
25 inconsistency in the mother's 1998 statement and the son's statement was
1 put to the mother, before she then said: "Well, yes my son was there."
2 Mr. Hedaraly, having been the interviewer, I would think would
3 have personal knowledge of whether she was asked to clarify the
4 discrepancies between the two testimonies.
5 MR. HEDARALY: Before I answer, obviously I don't want to testify
6 on how this statement was taken. There was also an investigator present
7 interest. If it becomes an issue, he can be called because he was also
8 there taking the statement. I was present.
9 I don't know if the Chamber wants me to --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Misetic
11 invited you to do so. Of course, you could phrase the question in a
12 different way; that is, what you would expect the investigator to say if
13 he would be asked about that.
14 MR. MISETIC: That's fine.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, the Chamber is aware that you are not
17 here as a witness. At the same time, the Chamber would appreciate if you
18 could tell us whether, when you were present during this second statement
19 of that other witness, whether you, prior to putting questions on this
20 matter to that witness, whether you informed the witness about I would
21 not say inconsistency, but at least the differences between the statement
22 of the present witness and the witness or the potential witness you
23 interviewed at that time.
24 Was that potential witness informed about it prior to giving her
25 statement, or did you first put the questions to her and then informed
1 her, or did you inform that witness at all?
2 MR. HEDARALY: Obviously, Your Honour, there were many witnesses,
3 so I can't have a precise recollection. But, typically --
4 JUDGE ORIE: You know exactly because you came up with the second
5 statement, so you cannot say that you don't know what witness we are
6 talking about.
7 MR. HEDARALY: I know which witness, but the specific questions
8 and answers that were obviously being asked --
9 JUDGE ORIE: In relation to this witness.
10 MR. HEDARALY: In relation to this witness, there were no
11 questions being -- there was no questions put to this witness, Milica
12 Djuric, about a statement given by someone else. What was --in the
13 course of take ago supplemental witness statement, the Prosecution goes
14 to the previous statement of that witness, and obviously asks questions
15 that can clarify. And to the extent we believe they are inconsistent, we
16 may put questions to the witness, but we do not show -- no one told the
17 witness: This other witness said that, is this true or not?
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: I was just wondering whether we had a potential
20 problem with protective measures as well, but apparently not.
21 If you would allow me to reread your last lines.
22 Your answer to my question was rather long, Mr. Hedaraly. Let me
23 try to put it again in very clear terms.
24 When you took the second statement of the witness, where you
25 intend to confront this witness with the second statement of the witness
1 you were referring to, was that witness, before questions were put to
2 her, in any way informed about the matters Mr. Misetic pointed out as
3 being inconsistent?
4 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
6 MR. HEDARALY: It's just being uploaded right now, and I believe
7 it's 65 ter number --
8 JUDGE ORIE: And I do understand that there's no need to go into
9 private session.
10 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour.
11 5202. And, Your Honour, it's not really to confront the witness,
12 it's just to clarify the record. I can show it to the witness and ask
13 him a question, but it's more for the Chamber than for the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 MR. HEDARALY: It's being released as we speak, so it should take
16 a few seconds.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, Mr. Djuric, we are waiting for something
18 to appear on the screen, and then Mr. Hedaraly will ask some questions to
20 Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:
21 MR. HEDARALY:
22 Q. Mr. Djuric, Mr. Misetic showed you a statement that your mother
23 gave, and asked you some questions with respect to that about whether you
24 came to the house or not on the 6th of August; do you remember that?
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether the witness
1 answered in the affirmative or the negative.
2 MR. HEDARALY:
3 Q. Could you please answer the question again whether you remember
4 that discussion you had with Mr. Misetic?
5 A. I do remember it.
6 Q. On the screen now is another statement that your mother gave last
8 MR. HEDARALY: If we can go to the second page of that statement,
9 and if we can focus on paragraph 4.
10 Q. And paragraph 4 says: "I went to talk to my Mile," that's your
11 mother speaking "on the mountain on both Friday and Saturday. On the
12 Saturday, I told him he should leave because everyone had left the
13 village by then. He told me that he was not scared and he did not want
14 to go. The following day he came to the house in the village."
15 Now, is that consistent with what recollection -- what your
16 recollection of what happened on those days?
17 A. This is consistent. On the 4th, I was not at home down there and
18 I did not see her. It's possible that she came there but I wasn't there,
19 and I don't know how exactly to answer this question. I am sure I did
20 not see her on the 4th, nor did I go down to the village to that house.
21 Q. But you went down -- your testimony is that you went down on the
22 6th; right?
23 A. I was in the village on the 5th, too, for a brief period of time.
24 Q. That's right. Thank you.
25 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, can we have this marked for
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P443, marked
4 for identification.
5 JUDGE ORIE: From yesterday's housekeeping session, it may be
6 clear to the parties that we keep these statements on the MFI list only
7 if there is am expectation, and I haven't checked that, that the person
8 who gave that statement is on the list to come and testify.
9 MR. HEDARALY: Actually, Your Honour, this witness, the statement
10 of Milica Djuric, is one of the statements that was submitted pursuant to
11 92 bis in the second --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I remember. So to that extent, she is on the 92 bis
13 list. Then we leave it marked for identification until the Chamber has
14 given a decision on admission.
15 Mr. Misetic.
16 MR. MISETIC: Just to note for the record, in light of today's
17 testimony concerning a 92 bis application, we may wish to clarify some of
18 these matters with the witness herself just to note and reserve our
19 position on that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You would say that calling that witness for
21 cross-examination was something you would be seeking.
22 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour, in light of the --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, you did already ask
24 for cross, or am I mistaken.
25 MR. MISETIC: To be honest, I don't recall.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I don't have them. Something comes into my mind.
2 MR. MISETIC: If we do --
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's marked for identification at this moment.
4 Mr. Hedaraly.
5 MR. HEDARALY: The Cermak Defence filed an objection on the 13th
6 of March, but the Gotovina Defence did not, and that statement hasn't
7 changed in a long time.
8 MR. MISETIC: That's what I'm saying, in light of what has come
9 up today, I guess our position, then, would be is that we join in the
10 Cermak Defence, and we say that we should clarify this with the second
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hedaraly, if the witness is called for
13 cross-examination on the request of one of the Defence teams, of course,
14 we would not easily say that the just for that.
15 MR. HEDARALY: That's fine, Your Honour. I mean, nothing has
16 come out today that was different. He was shown statements, as notes.
17 It was on my memory. So they had these inconsistent statements before,
18 so they should have made the objection at the right time. Otherwise, we
19 would --
20 JUDGE ORIE: As I said before, it might come down to very
21 practical issues, since at least one of the Defence teams has objected.
22 But the Chamber will look at that. It's now on the record that even
23 where you did not make an objection to that before, that at least you
24 would like to, I take it then, join the objections.
25 MR. MISETIC: Yes. And I would also add that there has been --
1 from our position, there has been significant new information regarding
2 communications between this witness and his mother in the three year
3 period, which is not in any of his statements and which we would also
4 like to explore on cross.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.
6 And, Mr. Hedaraly, I take it that you would agree that we do not
7 need any specific written submission, that it's sufficiently on the
8 record now, for what reasons Mr. Misetic would like to have Milica Djuric
9 called for cross-examination.
10 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. HEDARALY: I know we're past the break. I only have one last
13 question, unless the Bench has questions. Then we can take the break
14 or --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I would have at least one question.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would serve also the interests of the
18 transcribers and interpreters that you put that one last question,
19 because the Bench has one question only.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. HEDARALY:
22 Q. Mr. Djuric, there was also mentioned in cross-examination about
23 you not telling your mother about what you saw about you being an eye
24 witness. Can you please tell us why you didn't tell your mother what you
25 had seen?
1 A. I don't know. I didn't tell anyone. It wasn't just my mother.
2 It was very difficult for me, and for years I just kept silent. I just
3 listened to what she said. I don't know why I didn't tell her. I guess
4 I just couldn't do that. Any talk about that particular subject is very
5 painful for her. I couldn't really talk about things like that with her,
6 and she never said anything to me. We never discussed this particular
8 Even I myself don't know what she said in her statement. I never
9 asked her about that. Even though we're living in the same house, I
10 never asked her about it. I don't know what else I can say.
11 Q. That's a good enough explanation.
12 MR. HEDARALY: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, your last line is comment.
14 MR. HEDARALY: We can have that stricken, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we don't strike it, but just for you to know
16 that making such comments is not appropriate.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, I have one question about your summer
19 house where you were, as I understand, guarding quite a large number of
21 Would these sheep, when you guarded them, always be in the
22 immediate vicinity of the summer house, or would you move away from the
23 summer house? Could you tell us on how that works.
24 A. They were never near. I would go move around the hill within a
25 circumference of a kilometre or a kilometre and a half on one side and
1 the other. I didn't go further than that. In the morning from 5.00 to
2 10.00, I wasn't home; and then from 5.00 to 10.00 in the evening, I
3 wasn't at home. As for my mother, she would come to see me every day.
4 She would actually make meals for me. She would cook for me. Sometimes,
5 I wouldn't see her for two or three days. She would go back home. She
6 had things to do there. She was busy. And my constant job, my ongoing
7 job was to look after the sheep. I didn't have any other duties.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So, if you tell us that you were at the summer
9 house, that have I well understood you that you could be anywhere in a
10 range of two even total three kilometres?
11 A. I said one kilometre. I was never farther away than two
12 kilometres from the house. All of this was on the hill. That was my
13 only job. How can I explain? These were not my sheep. These were the
14 village sheep and I would charge for that, and I made good money in doing
15 this work. That was my job. I don't know how to explain it to you any
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you said one kilometre, that could be
18 one kilometre to the left or up hill and one kilometre to the right?
19 A. Yes, yes. That's what I meant.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
21 Have the questions by the OTP or by the Bench created any need.
22 MR. MISETIC: No questions, Your Honour.
23 I'm advised that there may be a -- by my colleague,
24 Mr. Mikulicic, there may be a translation question, and I don't know if
25 we wish to have it cleared up while the witness is here.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If it's a merely a matter of translation --
2 MR. MISETIC: It's not translation; it's names actually.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's names.
4 Mr. Mikulicic, is there any chance that we would need the witness
5 to further clarify once we know what it is about.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: As far as I remember, Your Honour, the witness
7 mentioned the surname of the certain person, and that surname wasn't
8 entered into the transcript. So if we could just ask him what was the
9 surname of the --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know what person you are talking about
11 at this moment. If you would put the question again to the witness, and
12 was it a question put in open session or in private session.
13 MR. MISETIC: Open.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Open.
15 Please repeat, then, that question, so that we get a clear
17 MR. MISETIC: Just for the record, this is related to page 21,
18 line 17 of the transcript.
19 Further cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:
20 Q. Sir, let me just re-ask the question because we may not have
21 accurately recorded it.
22 The names of the two soldiers with whom you left the area, I
23 believe you said one was named Sinisa. Do you recall his surname?
24 A. Yes. I said that one of them was called Sinisa, that was his
25 first name, and his last name was Koscica.
1 Q. Thank you. And do you know the name or the surname of the second
3 A. I didn't know the other one. I just know him by his nickname.
4 His nickname was "Cikan." That's how this first man referred to him. I
5 don't know his first or last name. All I know is the nickname "Cikan."
6 MR. MISETIC: Thank you. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, this concludes your testimony in this
8 court. I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague
9 for answering questions that were put to you by both party and by the
10 Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.
11 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm addressing the parties. If nothing has changed,
15 it means that we have no further witnesses for today, neither for
16 tomorrow. That means that we'll not sit tomorrow, and that we'll adjourn
17 in a minute.
18 Since there are no hearings next week, we will adjourn until
19 Monday, the 23rd of June, at 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.45 a.m.
21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of June,
22 2008, at 9.00 a.m.