Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5483

 1                           Tuesday, 1 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Steenbergen, I'd like to remind you that you're

15     still bound by the solemn declaration you gave yesterday at the beginning

16     of your testimony.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe who

19     is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

20             Please proceed.

21                           WITNESS:  HERMAN STEENBERGEN [Resumed]

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

23        Q.   Good morning Colonel.  I apologise for having to bring you back

24     for such a brief cross-examination, but thank you for your indulgence.

25             I'd just like to bring up first, Colonel, the map that you talk

Page 5484

 1     the about yesterday, P537, if I may.  I know you recall this map,

 2     Colonel.  You put some other markings on it at E and G, but I would now

 3     like to turn our attention to yet - now that you oriented yourself back

 4     on this - to another map, 1D35-0001.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  And we're going to show it via Sanction,

 6     Mr. Registrar.

 7        Q.   Now, Colonel, what I've done here is just take the map that you

 8     discussed yesterday with my friend Mr. Du Toit, and just put some other

 9     matters on there with targets.  And in the course of your statement, you

10     mention the shelling of cross-roads, and that would be in paragraph 22

11     and paragraph 45 of your July 2007 statement, P516.

12             And there were, in fact, a series of cross-roads in Gracac, were

13     there not, sir?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And you noted during -- would that be at 1 -- in the military

16     target, would that be 1, 4, and 6?

17        A.   1, 4, and 6?

18        Q.   If you look at the purple numbers --

19        A.   Oh.  Now I have it on screen.

20        Q.   I'm sorry.  Would those be the three cross-roads in and out of

21     Gracac?

22        A.   Yeah.  You can consider this as cross-roads.

23        Q.   Okay.  And in number 2, we have the office of the Defence.  Are

24     you familiar with that?  And we're talking about a purple 2 there.

25        A.   No.

Page 5485

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, let us just move down to 3, the police headquarters.

 2     Are you familiar with that location?  Do you see that, sir, right in the

 3     centre.  Would that be the approximate location of the police

 4     headquarters?

 5        A.   That is not the location that I remember, that was the location

 6     over there, 3.  The location I remember was more eastbound, as I marked

 7     on the map earlier.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And could you -- with the assistance of the usher, could

 9     you -- we can't write on that.  So that is in the other location.  You

10     were unfamiliar with the location at 3 as police headquarters?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   Now the storage facility, number 5, is that the approximate

13     location there?

14        A.   Assumed storage facility.

15        Q.   Assumed storage facility.  Just to clarify, this is the location

16     where you saw trucks going in and out of.  Is that right?

17        A.   Yeah, that's correct.  Yeah.

18        Q.   Now, Colonel, just staying with that for one moment, part of the

19     job of the UNMOs was to verify some of the weaponry of the opposing

20     sides, wasn't it?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And during the course of your stay in Sector South, did you

23     examine any weapons depots for the ARSK?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And where were they?

Page 5486

 1        A.   They were not in Gracac.  They were more westward towards the

 2     Medak Pocket.  But if you ask me now to pinpoint them on a map, I can

 3     only be, well, in general depict the area.  But it is more -- besides me

 4     [indiscernible], it was more westward to the Medak pocket, and not in

 5     Gracac itself.

 6        Q.   How many weapons caches did you, in fact, examine -- weapons

 7     depot, excuse me, for the ARSK?

 8        A.   Two.  What I remember at this moment.

 9        Q.   And were both of them in the Medak area?

10        A.   In the Medak area, yeah, that's correct.

11        Q.   What did the ARSK have in those weapons depots?

12        A.   Small arms, mortars, triple A.

13        Q.   Did they show you any artillery pieces?

14        A.   No.  I cannot recollect this at this moment.  No, no.

15        Q.   Did you ever ask the ARSK where their artillery pieces were?

16        A.   No, not when we were in the Medak area.

17        Q.   Well, how about your entire time there, did you ever ask the ARSK

18     with their artillery pieces were?

19        A.   It's not done by me.

20        Q.   Well, did you see any multi-barrel rocket launchers that the ARSK

21     had?

22        A.   Not in my AOR, being stored at some facilities.  I can remember

23     one incident that we followed a convoy that was travelling through our

24     AOR, but not in a depot or -- yeah.

25        Q.   So this was an ARSK convoy that was carrying multi-barrel rocket

Page 5487

 1     launchers.  Is that right?

 2        A.   I cannot exactly recall the type of equipment, what was heavy

 3     military equipment.

 4        Q.   And how many pieces of heavy military equipment was this -

 5     Colonel, I know this was a long time ago and bear with me - but to the

 6     best of your knowledge.

 7        A.   Well, I do not know exactly how many.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   Yeah.

10        Q.   Now in this -- this facility in Gracac where you observed

11     military trucks going in, did you ever ask the ARSK what was in there?

12        A.   No, we never did.

13        Q.   Did you ever ask to go in?

14        A.   No.  It was not on the list provided to us as an inspection site,

15     so we didn't go in.

16        Q.   I understand.  Just independent of that, did you ever ask in

17     conversation with any ARSK officials or RSK officials what they had in

18     there?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Now, the last item on this is 7.  Is that the approximate

21     location of the railway station?

22        A.   It is possible, but I -- I do not know exactly.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   No.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, subject to the witness's

Page 5488

 1     caveats, we will offer into evidence 1D350001.

 2             MR. DU TOIT:  No objection, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D439.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D439 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. KEHOE:

 7        Q.   I would just like to show you two documents quickly, Colonel, and

 8     just ask you some questions based on them.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  First is 65 ter 1768.  Thank you.

10             If we can just put this --  Mr. Registrar, can we just change the

11     configuration for that a bit in the English so the colonel can read it,

12     please.

13        Q.   Colonel, this is an RSK document, dated 15 July 1995, to the

14     municipality staff Gracac, Donji Lapac, Vrhovine, and Plaski?

15             MR. KEHOE:  Can we just move that over a little bit in the

16     English.  Actually, the prior page is what we want to start with.  Okay.

17        Q.   Colonel, this is an order coming from the RSK.  It notes, at the

18     bottom of the page, the activities of the BH army 5th Corps, and the HV

19     point to the possibility of intensification and escalation of combat

20     operations.  In view of this, and with the goal of taking adequate

21     measures to protect and rescue the population, and material goods by

22     order, strictly confidential ... the RSK republican civilian protection

23     staff ...

24             And then if we go to the next page, it sets forth -- we won't

25     read anymore, Colonel.  It sets forth the series of steps for the

Page 5489

 1     evacuation.  And, 3, prepare adequately the leaders of activities in the

 2     evacuation and movement of the population.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  In conjunction with that, if we could look at 65 ter

 4     2602.

 5        Q.   This is a Ministry of Interior document from the Republic of

 6     Croatia.  And if you can see that in the middle, this plan has been made

 7     to evacuate the civilian population from the Gracac area via SRB to

 8     Republika Srpska, dated 1 August 1995.

 9             I know yesterday, Colonel, that you said you didn't know of any

10     evacuation orders.  My question is:  During your stay in Gracac, did you

11     see the RSK authorities making any preparations for an evacuation?

12        A.   No, we did not.  Also, we never heard of any evacuation plans by

13     local -- told us by the local population or people living or

14     interpreters.  No, nobody told us about any plans.

15        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we will offer 65 ter 1768

17     and 65 ter 2602 into evidence.

18             MR. DU TOIT:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I see that this document talks about a

20     plan to evacuate the civilian population.  I do not see, as you said,

21     that the RSK authorities are making preparations.

22             MR. KEHOE:  The first document, Your Honour, 65 ter 1768, is an

23     RSK document.  The second document is a Croatian MUP document, an

24     information document talking about the plan.  So the two --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But whose plan doesn't transpire from --

Page 5490

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Well, it says at the bottom that the -- at the bottom

 2     of the first page of the order in 65 ter 1768, the RSK, republican

 3     civilian protection staff, orders.  And then on the next page, it says

 4     activate, regional and municipal protection staffs, et cetera.  It orders

 5     all those items to be taken, and it's signed by the chief of the regional

 6     staff, Mirko Kosnanovic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the second document.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  The first document is the RSK --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the first one.  And the second one?

10             MR. KEHOE:  Is just an information document.  It is not an order.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I see.  But I see that a plan is mentioned there,

12     but by whom that plan is made --

13             MR. KEHOE:  This is an internal information document from the

14     Republic of Croatia, and I don't think -- they don't denote in here who

15     exactly is making the plan.  This is just a verification, frankly, coming

16     from the Croatian side, that they have information that a plan has, in

17     fact, taken place.  It notes at the top that the Red Berets platoon,

18     Captain Dragan's troops from the centre, have arrived in the Gracac area.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

20             MR. KEHOE:  I'm not saying --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that all that, but you're linking the two

22     documents as if the documents show that this is the same plan, or at

23     least the plan coming from the same authority, and that is not yet clear

24     to me on the basis of the text of this document.

25             MR. KEHOE:  I --  with these particular document, one being the

Page 5491

 1     15th of July and then a report back there on the 1st of August saying

 2     that a plan has been made to evacuate the civilian population from the

 3     Gracac area, I do think the Chamber can make that connection, that what

 4     the plan they're talking about on the 15th is the one that the MUP of

 5     Croatia is talking about on the 1st.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it could also mean a Croatian plan.  At

 7     least that is not excluded on the basis of the text, is it?

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I think it -- is it excluded?  It doesn't say that,

 9     except, of course, the --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's your interpretation of the link between the

11     two documents --

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which is, more or less, put to the witness as a

14     fact.

15             MR. KEHOE:  And, Your Honour, certainly, as Your Honour has

16     pointed out on numerous occasions, subject to the Chamber's

17     interpretation of these documents either in isolation or in concert.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   One last area, Colonel, and that has to do with your statement in

21     paragraph 42.  Before we --

22             MR. KEHOE:  I did tender those two documents, Your Honour.  I

23     don't know if --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm sorry.  Yes.  And there were no objections,

25     Mr. Du Toit.

Page 5492

 1             Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 01768 becomes Exhibit

 3     number D440, and 65 ter 02602 becomes Exhibit number D441.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D440 and D441 are admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. KEHOE:

 6        Q.   And, Colonel, if you can move to paragraph 42 of your statement,

 7     the -- are you with me there, Colonel?

 8        A.   Yeah.

 9        Q.   And in that, Colonel, you note -- you talk about the trip to

10     Otric.  And in one of the situation reports, D192, you dated that trip to

11     Otric as August 18th, 1995.  I believe that is correct.  My learned

12     friend, Mr. Du Toit, said it was the 18th of August.

13             In the line above that, it notes:  "I cannot recall when exactly,

14     but around 5/6th August, we received orders to monitor the movement of HV

15     troops towards and into Bosnia."

16             Now you noted that date was incorrect as well.  Is that right?

17        A.   Yeah, that's correct.

18        Q.   Sir, when did you receive this order to monitor the movement of

19     HV troops toward and into Bosnia?

20        A.   Must be on or about mid-August.

21        Q.   Now, that particular order, how was that conveyed to you?

22        A.   What I remember of it was conveyed during a team leaders meeting

23     in Sector South headquarters.

24        Q.   Who gave you that order?

25        A.   What I remember it was from the chief UNMO Sector South.

Page 5493

 1        Q.   And who was that at that time?  Is that Steiner Hjertnes?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did he convey the order orally or at any time in writing?

 4        A.   I cannot recall anything in writing in this moment, yeah.

 5        Q.   Now, Colonel, is there any reason why an order such as that is

 6     not reflected in any of the situation reports coming out of UN

 7     Sector South?

 8        A.   It is possible that you get orders orally.  That's possible,

 9     so --

10        Q.   Well, have you ever seen that order reflected in any situation

11     report coming out of UN Sector South?

12        A.   Not by my knowledge.

13        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with an operation called Operation Black

14     Bird or Black Crow?

15        A.   No, I'm not.

16        Q.   Well, did you participate with other UNMOs in travelling into

17     Bosnia to track the movements for the HV?

18        A.   I personally did not.  That happened during my CTO, my leave.

19     The rest of my team members tried to cross the border.

20        Q.   And was the purpose of crossing the border to track the movements

21     of the HV?

22        A.   That was correct.

23        Q.   And when that was going on, were the members of your team aware

24     that that was in violation of their mandate?

25        A.   No.  Otherwise, they would not do that.

Page 5494

 1        Q.   And again, was that Mr. Hjertnes that ordered them to cross the

 2     border to track HV movements?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  He issued orders for UNMO teams.

 4        Q.   Now when you were going up to Otric in [sic] the 18th of

 5     August of 1995 and you were stopped, were you going up to Otric at that

 6     point and tracking HV movements?

 7        A.   No, not to my knowledge.  We just -- patrols are getting to have

 8     a better situational awareness of the situation, and -- yeah.

 9        Q.   Colonel, thank you very much for your time, and I apologise I had

10     to bring you back for such a brief period of time.  Thank you.

11             MR. KEHOE:  I have no further questions of the witness, Your

12     Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

14             Position of the Cermak Defence.

15             MR. CAYLEY:  Nothing arises, Your Honour.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Du Toit.

18             MR. DU TOIT:  Just three aspects, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Du Toit

21        Q.   Mr. Steenbergen, yesterday, in question by the Markac Defence

22     team, and also this morning by Mr. Kehoe, you referred to the -- and I

23     can refer you to paragraph 14 of your statement, Exhibit 516.  You

24     mention of the incident where you saw the military trucks entering and

25     exiting the site.  Do you recall that?

Page 5495

 1        A.   Mm-hm.

 2        Q.   Can you just answer in the affirmative, please?

 3        A.   Yeah, that's affirmative.

 4        Q.   Now, the heading of your statement is "Events pre-August 1995."

 5     Can you perhaps, as you sit now, remember when did you observe the

 6     movement that you describe in paragraph 14 of your statement?

 7        A.   No, I cannot remember when.  No.  But, for sure, it was not a

 8     continuous going in and out, no.

 9        Q.   And then just lastly from questions by my learned friend

10     Mr. Kehoe, you also indicated that you received instructions to monitor

11     HV troops.  Is that correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Now, did Mr. Hjertnes in the team leader's meeting, as you

14     testified, inform you as to the reason why they requested UNMOs to do

15     that?

16        A.   I cannot recall.

17             MR. DU TOIT:  That is all.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Du Toit.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.

21                           Questioned by the Court:

22             JUDGE KINIS:  Referring to your statement P516, I suppose, you

23     mentioned that -- in paragraph 62, you mentioned:  "After immediately,

24     Operation Storm check-points were established, and exits and entries into

25     Gracac were effectively monitored."

Page 5496

 1             At the same time, you mentioned that looting and burning whole

 2     time took place.  Could you please elaborate more on these issues,

 3     whether this check-points -- how this check-points was operating at that

 4     time?

 5        A.   On various cross-roads in our AOR, check-points were established

 6     and they were manned by Croatian troops.  And they would stop vehicles

 7     passing by and inspect or ask their purpose why they were.  We also were

 8     stopped, but that was only to check IDs for short notices, short period

 9     of time.  And when we told our direction or heading, we were free to go.

10             JUDGE KINIS:  But did you observe some situations where such

11     vehicles loaded with some furniture or some looted sinks passed such

12     check-points?

13        A.   No.  I cannot recall, no, that those vehicles passed those

14     check-points.  I only can recall this happened inside of the town of

15     Gracac, where I have seen these furniture and other household items being

16     loaded into open trucks.

17             JUDGE KINIS:  From Gracac, this road is going directly to Sibenik

18     as well, yeah, as far as I understood.

19        A.   The road I mentioned was the main road in Gracac, in town.  So

20     that is from Gospic to the junction where you go up north toward Binaj

21     south to Knin.  It is the main road in Gracac centre.

22             JUDGE KINIS:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Steenbergen, I would like to take you back to

24     paragraph 38, in which it states that ten explosions in the general area

25     of Gracac were reported from a direction of 220-230 degrees.

Page 5497

 1             And I think that --

 2                           [French on English Channel]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We got French on the English channel, but I think

 4     it's English now again.

 5             It was an observation by hearing.  Now, ten degrees is a very

 6     small angle, and I think the question was put already to you in that

 7     respect.  From your experience, do you think that you could make a

 8     distinction between what you hear from there or from there, which is

 9     already 30 degrees?

10        A.   Your Honour, the angle will widen upon the distance, so ten

11     degrees in distance is a little bit wider.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  If I make a distinction, then, of course, ten

13     degrees is whatever the distance is remains ten degrees, although, of

14     course, the --.

15        A.   Coverage will be --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Coverage.  The further away ten degrees will cover

17     more hectometres or kilometres.

18        A.   That is correct.  What mentioned here is that we heard from the

19     location of first Stikada, outgoing fire from the direction of Mali Alan.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I'd like you to elaborate, to the extent

21     you still can remember, on the damage you found in Gracac.  Was there any

22     focus point or several focus points where you said, "There, the damage

23     was more intense," or was it evenly distributed in the village.  Were you

24     able to determine any possible focus points, as far as the damage is

25     concerned?

Page 5498

 1        A.   There were several hits all around Gracac, but the focus was

 2     more -- maybe we can pull up the map again.  Is that possible, Your

 3     Honour?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think we can.  I think the last map with the

 5     military targets will do.

 6             Now, I haven't got it.  Mr. Registrar, could you assist us in

 7     getting the right map on the screen.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I think that is D439.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

10             THE WITNESS:

11        A.   The main focus actually what we observed was in and around the

12     area depicted as D; also, a little bit more to the south-west, where you

13     have the word Cubelici.  There was also an accommodations -- where my

14     accommodation was, there were various impacts around my house also

15     hitting the house, hitting the houses nearby.  Shrapnel is flying against

16     the houses there.

17             Then more to -- to the north-west, then you come on that road

18     again, the marked orange road.  There was another house of a fellow UNMO,

19     a Brazilian.  Shells were also falling around his house.  And when I

20     picked him up, he was lying in a ditch, and there were also craters

21     around his house.

22             Then we moved on to the location in and around B.  Various shells

23     were also impacting and impacted all around B.  Yeah, still we were in

24     location B.  And also when I was in the accommodation, I could hear

25     shells flying over our -- our house and our UNMO office located by B.

Page 5499

 1             Yes.  Just to elaborate on that, if you go for strategic points,

 2     what is the discussion over here, then it is important to know that when

 3     you have an operation plan, for example, Operation Storm, that there is

 4     an annex via support.  And within an annex via support, you will find

 5     distinctive targets, strategic targets, where you want a certain effect.

 6     Within the artillery, you talk about effects, what you want to achieve

 7     with your artillery, and that must be stated then in the ops order.

 8             Well, to my knowledge, and that's from artillery, if you see

 9     square kilometres, well, and if you describe D and B as strategic

10     targets, well, those shells were not falling within the limits we

11     normally use to hit a strategic target.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What would be the normal limits you would use.

13        A.   It depends on the type of artillery you use, the effect they

14     have, but within 100 metres of the target, and even when, you know,

15     you're going to take artillery fire in -- in a town like this.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you mentioned, I think twice, the houses

17     in which UNMOs had taken residence.  Was the picture different for those

18     specific houses, or would you find similar damage to other places where

19     not UNMO but civilians were living?

20        A.   Your Honour, the picture was the same.  When I go up north as

21     depicted on this map, A, you see the street over there where our former

22     office was, there are various houses also burned in that street and were

23     still intact pre-Storm.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So you did not gain the impression that it was

25     specifically UNMO residences that were more damaged than other places

Page 5500

 1     where people were living.

 2        A.   No, Your Honour, no.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 4             Have the questions by the Bench raised any need for further

 5     questions by the parties?

 6             Then, Mr. Steenbergen, this concludes your evidence in this

 7     court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

 8     for answering questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench.  And,

 9     usually, I thank people for coming a long way.  That is a bit different

10     here, perhaps.  But, nevertheless, even if it is a short way, I wish you

11     a safe trip home again.

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Steenbergen

14     out of the courtroom.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Since protective measures were sought for the next

18     witness, and since they need some preparation - well, they're not only

19     sought, but they were granted - we'll have a bit of a longer break.  So

20     if you have a very short break, we are getting in trouble with our length

21     of the times.  Therefore, we'll have a break until a quarter past 10.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 9.43 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.16 a.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness 86.  I would like to remind

25     you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at

Page 5501

 1     the beginning of your testimony.

 2             We, for the continuation of the examination of Witness 86, we

 3     move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

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Page 5502











11  Pages 5502-5561 redacted. Private session.















Page 5562

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 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             Mr. Kay, could you give us an indication of how much time you

10     would still need.

11             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I believe about six hours would see me

12     through this.  Your Honours will be aware that this an important witness

13     for the Defence, which the Prosecution had a considerable period of time

14     dealing with, in addition to using 92 ter.

15             I have had to put together collections of documents dealing with

16     particular subjects because we noticed the Prosecution used one document,

17     but there are another few before and a few behind.  That puts things into

18     context and matters that I wouldn't otherwise be dealing, such as housing

19     of the MUP, thereby force me to put them into full context and that's

20     really been my role.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that.  Of course, to some extent, we're

22     asking ourselves to what extent it would have been possible to agree on

23     some of these contextual facts which certainly save some time.

24             MR. KAY:  It would certainly involve the Prosecution giving up

25     lines of argument, and I don't know whether they would be prepared to do

Page 5563

 1     that.  We have disclosed this bundle to them and Your Honours since a few

 2     days, and now we have done quite a bit of research on such document

 3     sources as we can access.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts.

 5             MR. MARGETTS:  Your Honour, I am sure in terms of admissibility

 6     of the materials that we could have fruitful discussions with the Defence

 7     which may save some court time.

 8             In terms of the need to put specific documents to this witness,

 9     we may be able to resolve those matters as well.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The parties are encouraged to see what they

11     can achieve in this respect.

12             Then same question for the other Defence counsel.

13             Mr. Mikulicic.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Since my learned friend

15     Mr. Kay covered a lot of topics that I was intended to raise, I would

16     believe that I could fit my cross-examination within an hour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Gotovina Defence.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I would ask for two hours right now,

19     but I also see that Mr. Kay is covering a lot of the topics.  So I would

20     advise the Prosecution concerning future witnesses, I anticipate that it

21     will be less.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that we, therefore, have another wish list of

23     all together nine hours, which would take at least two entire days in

24     court, and that would, then, make all together over nine hours -- no,

25     over 11 hours, where the Prosecution used six hours and one minute.

Page 5564

 1             We'll consider the matter; and, of course, the parties are

 2     invited to carefully consider not only what subjects to cover but also

 3     how to cover them.

 4             We will adjourn, Witness 86, but I would first like to again

 5     instruct you not to speak with anyone about your testimony, whether given

 6     already or still to be given.

 7             We'll adjourn until tomorrow, Wednesday, the 2nd of July, 9.00 in

 8     the morning, this same courtroom, number I.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of July,

11                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.