1 Monday, 7 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 I was informed, Mr. Kehoe, that you would like to address the
12 Court on a certain matter.
13 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour two brief issues.
14 The first one comes from the summaries I noticed in the filing
15 that the Prosecution made on the summary of the witness's testimony. On
16 three separate occasions in that summary it is noted that the witness saw
17 dead civilians. If you examine the actual witness statement, he says
18 civilians and soldiers on those three occasions. Of course, that is
19 admitting from the summary so I asked my colleague across the well if in
20 fact in his summary to the public it would include civilians and soldiers
21 and of course it doesn't. It just notes civilians.
22 I'm not sure of what exact purpose of those summaries are, if
23 it's a Prosecutor's version of the facts or an objective assessment of
24 what is in the witness's statements.
25 I don't know if you want to address -- me to move to the next
1 issue, I will.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
3 MR. RUSSO: Good morning, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
5 MR. RUSSO: The statement actually in --the witness's statement
6 actually says that he saw dead civilians, although some were in uniform.
7 He doesn't identify specifically soldiers. He does say that he saw some
8 of the dead civilians that he saw lying in the streets were wearing
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. RUSSO: I don't see that --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if what is an issue it -- of course, it's a
13 summary but if you then add the three, four, or five words that Mr. Kehoe
14 considers to be relevant it is not evidence. I mean, the original is
15 evidence, if it would meet the concerns of Mr. Kehoe is there any reason
16 not to --
17 MR. RUSSO: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
19 MR. KEHOE: The next issue is to do with the actual statement
20 itself, and it goes to the page 7 opinion rendered by Colonel Bellerose
21 and I'm talking about page seven, the first full paragraph after -- the
22 first paragraph to the carry-over paragraph where he gives his opinion
23 the shelling was carried out to drive the civilian population away from
24 Knin because the shelling was not directed at specific military targets.
25 Of course that, is an opinion.
1 I tried at that talk to my colleague across the we well,
2 Mr. Russo, to eliminate that and limit it to just what Colonel Bellerose
3 saw, what he observed during the operative time-frame. Mr. Russo
4 declined to take that invitation. I will say if that testimony is led
5 during the course of direct examination it will of course compel the
6 Defence to go through the military target exercise and the lack of
7 knowledge that this witness had concerned the military targets in the
8 Knin area.
9 Frankly, Judge, I know you have called upon us to shorten things
10 and I attempted to do that in this fashion, but I will say that if that
11 goes forward in that fashion I will be forced to meet it in defence of my
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
14 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. This is certainly an issue
15 that has come up in the past. I think we have handled it in correctly in
16 the past. The Court has been quite clear that these opinions standing
17 alone don't count for much. Of course, the factual basis underlying the
18 opinion, something that would assist the Court in determining what led
19 the witness to come to this assessment, I certainly intend to explore the
20 factual basis underlying that opinion. We have provided that to the
21 Defence in a supplemental information sheet indicating why the witness
22 came to that opinion. I think it's something that will assist the Court.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I -- then of course you're fully entitled
24 to explore the matter in cross-examination. I do not really see the
25 procedural issue, apart from, of course the Chamber would never expect a
1 part to give up an important matter just for sake of time. That may be
2 clear to everyone.
3 And, as Mr. Russo rightly said, or should I said rightly
4 understood, that standing alone of course to say this was not against
5 military targets without laying a proper factual foundation, it might be
6 one of the core issues in this case. So, therefore, it certainly needs a
7 factual basis and if it is there, then of course it is there to be
8 challenged as well.
9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. I understand. I just want to
10 highlight it before I moved into the cross.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Another matter, of course, is how efficient
12 that is done.
13 MR. KEHOE: Well, that is a double-edged sword because if
14 efficiency calls for us to meet that, which I will do, that is going take
15 some time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But even then --
17 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We don't have to discuss it any further, I think.
19 It is clear that it will take sometime. It may also be clear that the
20 more efficient way it is done, the less extra time it takes.
21 Mr. Russo, are you ready to call your next witness?
22 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls Joseph
23 Lorenzo Claude Bellerose, witness 97.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures, Mr. Russo.
25 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from the matters just dealt with, which
2 are not considered to be objections against admission of the 92 ter
3 statement as such, apart from this -- this opinion matter --
4 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- there is no objection from any of the Defence
6 teams. That's then clear.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Bellerose.
9 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bellerose, before you give evidence in this
11 court the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
12 declaration that you will speaks the truth the whole truth and nothing
13 butt truth. The text is now handed out to you but Madam Usher and I
14 would like to invite to you make that declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Bellerose.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 WITNESS: JOSEPH LORENZO CLAUDE BELLEROSE
20 Examination by Mr. Russo:
21 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by Mr. Russo, who is
22 counsel for the Prosecution.
23 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bellerose.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Let me first apologise on behalf of our office for having kept
2 you here for so long waiting. Thank you for your patience and I would
3 ask you please to state your full name for the record.
4 A. Joseph Lorenzo Claude Bellerose.
5 Q. And Mr. Bellerose, do you recall giving two statements to the
6 ICTY, one dated 1st November 1995, the other dated that 2nd of
7 November 1999?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5205.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The Prosecution counsel is kindly requested to
11 speak into the microphone or maybe even into another microphone.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, you got the message.
13 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry, Your Honour?
14 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to speak into the microphone or in
15 another microphone. The microphone you're using at this time is
16 relatively far away and perhaps obstructed a bit.
17 MR. RUSSO: I apologise Your Honour, thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Bellerose, do you see your statement there on the screen?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. It's coming up in just a second.
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you recognise that as your 1 November 1995
24 A. Is it possible to scroll -- scroll through, to the ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bellerose, you mean page by page.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, please.
2 Yes, it's yeah.
3 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.
4 And, Mr. Registrar, if we could now have 65 ter 5232.
5 And if we could scroll to the last signature page.
6 Mr. Bellerose, do you recognise that as your 2 November 1995 --
7 1999 statement?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. And did you have a chance to review both of those statements
10 before coming to court today?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And are those statements true and accurate to the best of your
14 A. Yes, they are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge.
15 Q. And do both of those statements correctly reflect the information
16 that you gave ICTY investigators.
17 A. Yes, they are.
18 Q. And if you were examined with regard to those same matters here
19 today, would your answers be the same as in those statements?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, at this time I would move for the
23 admission of 65 ter 5205, 65 ter 5232.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As I established before, there are no
25 objections against admission.
1 Mr. Registrar, first the November 1995 statement.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P545.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P545 is admitted into evidence.
4 Then the November 1999 statement.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P546, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P546 is admitted into evidence.
7 You may proceed.
8 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could please have the
9 assistance of the court usher I would like to give the witness hard
10 copies of his statements.
11 And with your permission, Mr. President I would like to read a
12 brief summary of the witness's evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
14 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.
15 "Mr. Bellerose was the sector engineer for the whole of
16 Sector South from 15 June until 16 December 1995 and was responsible for
17 supervising all engineering work, including construction of observation
18 posts and demining. In connection with his duties he travelled
19 extensively throughout Sector South both prior to and after
20 Operation Storm. He observed that there were not many soldiers in Knin
21 prior to Operation Storm, and even in his travels throughout the sector,
22 he only saw small groups of four or five ARSK soldiers at a time. He was
23 present in Knin during the artillery attack on the 4th and 5th of August,
24 1995, and observed the shelling from the balcony of the UN HQ building.
25 "Mr. Bellerose delivered medical supplies to the hospital during
1 the shelling on the 4th of August and observed a great deal of
2 devastation, including dead civilians an individuals in uniform lying in
3 the streets, injured people at the hospital with limbs missing and
4 buildings and cars on fire.
5 "While he was supervising the delivery of medical supplies at the
6 hospital, shells were flying over his head and impacting in the town. He
7 proposed and implemented the plan for accommodating the Serbs who sought
8 refuge in the UN HQ compound, most of whom were women, children and the
10 "After Operation Storm, on 6 August, he observed Croatian
11 authorities bringing in civilian trucks to clean up the main road in
12 Knin. On 9 August he travelled to the water-pumping station for Knin to
13 try and restore water service and observed that almost every house and
14 apartment in Knin had been looted. During his travels throughout the
15 sector after Operation Storm, he observed that many villages were
16 deployed by burning and looting. He was often prevented from entering
17 villages by Croatian special police and would later see smoke rising from
18 houses in those villages."
19 Your Honour, that concludes the summary.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
21 MR. RUSSO:
22 Q. Mr. Bellerose, I would first like to discuss the situation in
23 Sector South prior to Operation Storm. Can you please give the Court
24 some idea for how extensively you travelled in the sector prior to the
25 artillery attack?
1 A. Yes. Prior to the attack, one of my main role was to oversee the
2 reinforcement of all the UN observation posts. As such, I believe there
3 was 120 observation posts between the Serb and the Croat border, and I
4 visited each one of them.
5 Q. Thank you. And during these trips did you ever have occasion to
6 see any ARSK observation posts?
7 A. I saw a few observation posts.
8 Q. And can you please give the Court an idea for the state of those
9 observation posts?
10 A. The observation posts that I saw, they were called very
11 substandard, affording very little overhead protection in case of
12 artillery or direct fire.
13 Q. And can you give the Court some idea of how equipped or manned
14 these observation posts were?
15 A. At the observation posts that I saw, I didn't see any heavy
16 equipment or artillery pieces. Basically the observation posts were
17 manned by two, three, four, maybe five ARSK soldier, at the most.
18 Q. And during these trips to all of the observation posts, did you
19 have the opportunity to observe the living conditions in the Republic of
20 Serbian Krajina generally?
21 A. We're talking about civilian population?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. There was a big difference into the standard of living of the
24 people in Croatia
25 area, it's like I was going into a third world country where there was
1 not many vehicle moving around. Most people were walking or having horse
2 or donkey pulling carts. It was very poor standard of living.
3 Q. Thank you. I'd like to now move to the events of -- in Knin on 4
4 August 1995. Can you please tell the Court what you observed, what you
5 saw and heard of the shelling on that day?
6 A. The shelling started, I believe, around 5.00 in the morning on
7 the 4th, and it was very intensive for about a period of one to two
8 hours. From the sound, it sounded like the artillery was all over the
9 place, in -- you know, and there was no really any specific target.
10 Then after an hour or two, it slowed down. And then you could
11 hear artillery landing everywhere in town, in -- you know, until I got on
12 to the balcony of the UN headquarters then I could see that they were
13 landing in the different parts of town.
14 Q. If I could direct you to your second statement, that is P546, and
15 page 3 of your second statement, the fourth paragraph. And in the B/C/S
16 translation that's page 3, second paragraph. And there you reference
17 that the initial shelling began at 5.00 a.m., and you state: "I could
18 tell by the noise that some shelling was artillery fire and some was
19 rocket fire."
20 Could you please explain to the Court how you were able to
21 distinguish that?
22 A. At the time I believe there was, because of my military training,
23 where I had previously seen a rocket fired during a fire-power
25 Q. And staying again in that same paragraph, you indicate that you
1 went to the top floor of the UN HQ building to observe the shelling and
2 that you saw shells landing in the railway goods yard near the northern
3 barracks and you also saw them exploding in Knin close to the hill where
4 the winding road from Gracac passes.
5 Can you please clarify for the Court whether these are the only
6 areas in which you saw shells landing in Knin?
7 A. No, it was not the only places. Those are the ones that stuck to
8 my mind that I could locate or be able to identify on a map or photos.
9 Q. Thank you. Moving to your first statement, that's P545, it's
10 that one-page, at paragraph 1 - it's the same in the B/C/S - you indicate
11 that you took a trip to Knin hospital to deliver medical supplies on the
12 4th, sometime between 1600 and 1800 hours. I would like you to please
13 describe that trip for the Court.
14 A. I was asked by the Chief of Staff, General Leslie, to go to the
15 hospital -- well, the purpose of the trip was two -- threefold. First we
16 had to take General Forand to the Serb headquarters. Also to go to the
17 hospital to deliver medical supply. And on our way back our task was to
18 go to several houses that we knew were UN civilian employee or -- and UN
19 civilian police were residing and to bring them back to safety inside the
20 UN camp.
21 We did the trip with two armoured person carrier, one M-113 and
22 one OT-64. Inside the trip I was inside the vehicle, so I could not see
23 what was happening, but I could hear artillery shell landing.
24 When we got to the hospital, I got out of the vehicle and
25 supervised the unloading of medical supply. While I was outside the
1 hospital and outside the armoured personnel carrier, I could hear shell
2 flying overhead and hearing them explode inside Knin.
3 On our way back I was inside the armoured personnel carrier and
4 then when we got the location of the address where we knew civilian
5 police, UN civilian police and UN employees were living, then I got
6 outside the vehicle and I could see devastation in the street. Some
7 bodies were lying down, some cars were on fire, and I could hear
8 artillery round impacting to the town.
9 Once we pick up as many people as we could and retrieve General
10 Forand, we went back to the UN compound.
11 Q. Thank you for that. Let me ask you, Mr. Bellerose, while you
12 were at the hospital, did you see an ARSK tank anywhere in the area?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. Did you see any evidence that a tank or multiple tanks had been
15 stationed near the hospital?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. Let's please move back it your second statement, that is P546, at
18 page 4, in the third paragraph. And in the B/C/S translation that would
19 be page 4 at the top of the page. And there you discuss the same trip
20 but in more detail, and you indicate that: "Driving through Knin on this
21 mission I saw a great deal of devastation. There were a number of what
22 appeared to be dead civilians lying in the streets, although some were in
23 uniform. Buildings and cars were on fire and there was devastation
24 everywhere I looked."
25 I think you have explained to the Court that you made these
1 observations while you were outside the APC.
2 Let me ask you during your proofing session did you have a chance
3 to mark on an aerial photograph of Knin some of the locations where you
4 stopped as well as where you saw the shells impacting in Knin?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5303.
7 Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
8 Q. Mr. Bellerose, do you recognise this photograph?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. And are you able to describe for the Court the markings that you
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Can you please describe for the Court what the circle towards the
14 bottom labelled A represents?
15 A. Represent two things. The first is -- this is where I saw three
16 artillery round, as per my first statement, landing and it also represent
17 one of the area where we stop to pick up some UN employees, civilian
18 employee, and UN civilian police. So we had several stop in that area.
19 Q. And the circle directly above that which is labelled C?
20 A. This is where I saw one artillery round landing at the north
21 railway tracks.
22 Q. Thank you. And the circle above and to the left of that, which
23 is marked D?
24 A. D, this is another area we stop on the way back from the hospital
25 to pick up UN and civilian and UN police.
1 Q. Thank you. And, finally, the circle far to the left which is
2 marked B?
3 A. That's where my first statement I identify one artillery round
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I would move for the admission of 65 ter
8 MR. KEHOE: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P547.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P547 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.
13 Q. Moving now to the 5th of August, 1995, Mr. Bellerose, can you
14 please --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, would you allow me one question.
16 In the witness statement we see what appears to be civilians
17 although in uniforms. How do you identify someone in a uniform as being
18 a civilian? Could you explain that to us?
19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo just read part of your statement and --
21 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, for the Court's benefit that is second
22 statement, page 4, third paragraph.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- Mr. Russo read to you from your
24 statement, saying: "There were a number of what appeared to be dead
25 civilians lying in the streets, although some were in uniform."
1 Could you tell us exactly how you identify a dead person in
2 uniform being a civilian?
3 THE WITNESS: I believe at the time what I meant to say was that
4 there was some dead civilian and also there was some dead people in
5 uniform, meaning the soldiers.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you therefore do not express any opinion
7 about whether those persons in uniform were civilians or not?
8 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't mean to say that those person in
9 uniform were civilian.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. Thank you.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Bellerose, if you could please explain to the Court the
14 observations you made regarding the shelling that occurred on the 5th of
16 A. The shelling on the 5th of August was, when it started in the
17 morning was still very extensive for the first hour. I believe it
18 started near 0515 hours. And then later on, during the day, it was of
19 not extensive at all. There was very sporadic, one shell maybe every
20 ten, 15 minutes, and there were at all -- all over the place. There was
21 not one specific location. That was later on that during the afternoon.
22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bellerose, can you tell the Court whether, on
23 either the 4th or the 5th of August, if you ever saw or heard any
24 outgoing artillery fire from Knin?
25 A. I never saw nor did I hear any outgoing fire.
1 Q. Thank you. And if we could move to your second statement again.
2 That's P546. At page 7. This is in the B/C/S, page 6. At the last full
3 paragraph you offer some opinions and I will quote: "In my opinion the
4 shelling of Knin was carried out to drive away of the civilian
5 population. The shelling was not directed at specific military targets.
6 I believe it was deliberate harassment shelling."
7 Now I would like to discuss the factual basis for each one of
8 these opinions separately. First let me ask you, what was the basis for
9 your opinion that the shelling was carried out to drive away the civilian
11 A. In my opinion, if there would have been military target in those
12 location that would have been causing a threat to the Croat forces, they
13 would have been more intensive and direct at a specific target, be more
15 Q. Can you tell the Court what you observed that was not consistent
16 with that?
17 A. The artillery fire wasn't concentrated into one location. It was
18 landing all over the town more to a random fashion and at random
20 Q. Thank you. And you indicated that the shelling was not directed
21 at specific military targets. Let me ask you first to please identify or
22 tell the Court what you believed the military targets to be at the time
23 and why.
24 A. For what I have seen in my time in Knin, the military target
25 would have been the north camp, the camp adjacent to the UN compound and
1 the RSK headquarter in downtown Knin.
2 Q. Thank you. You also offered the opinion that it was deliberate
3 harassment fire, and I would like you to please explain for the Court
4 what you meant by that.
5 A. Because it was like a random firing all over the place and random
6 interval, you know, for me, I believed that this is -- this is a
7 situation that will make the occupants of the town, if they were still
8 there, wondering if they were going to be next or when the next round was
9 going to land, if it would be close to their place. Just that, I don't
10 know, it's hard for me to explain, but it wasn't -- makes you wonder if
11 the next round is going to be in your backyard as opposed to, you know,
12 five -- 500 metres or, you know, five miles down the road.
13 Q. Thank you. And the military targets that you identified, the
14 north camp, the camp adjacent to the UN compound and the RSK headquarters
15 in downtown Knin, can you tell the Court whether from your observations
16 you saw fire being concentrated on those areas?
17 A. I'm sorry?
18 Q. I'd like you to explain for the Court if during the times that
19 you observed the shelling of Knin, if you saw artillery fire being
20 concentrated on either what you identify as the north camp or the RSK
21 headquarters or the Serb camp next to the UN base.
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move now to some of the events that
24 followed Operation Storm and if we could move to page 5 of your second
25 statement at the fourth paragraph in the very middle of the page and in
1 the B/C/S translation this is at page 4. It's the last full paragraph.
2 And in there, Mr. Bellerose, you state that: "On the 6th of
3 August you saw that the Croats were bringing in civilian trucks to clean
4 up the main road through Knin."
5 I'd like you to explain to the Court what exactly it was that you
6 observed which led you to conclude that the purpose of these trucks was
7 to clean up the main road.
8 A. I've been in the construction business as an engineer for most of
9 my life, and that morning of the 6th what I saw going to Knin were
10 basically construction truck. There were like contractors truck that
11 carried construction material, plywood, two by four, window replacement
12 glass, and there was several one of them, so like the type of trucks that
13 you see going to a major construction site and also the material that it
14 was carrying.
15 Q. Thank you. And in that same paragraph -- I'm sorry, on the same
16 page in the next paragraph you describe a trip that you took on the 9th
17 of August to try and restore water service to the UN camp and this
18 appears in the B/C/S translation at the top of the page 5.
19 Let me ask you, Mr. Bellerose, do you know why was no water
20 supply in the compound at that time?
21 A. The pumping station was no longer working and also some of the
22 water line had been broken because of artillery fire.
23 Q. Thank you. In that same paragraph describing the trip that you
24 took into the town on that day, you indicated and I will quote: "There
25 was devastation everywhere in Knin. It was obvious that looting had
1 taken place. There was clothing and other items lying beneath the
2 windows of almost every house and apartment."
3 And I would like to ask you, did the devastation that you
4 witnessed on that day include damage from shelling?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And based on what you observed, was this damage from shelling
7 concentrated in any particular area of the town?
8 A. No, it wasn't. It was all over the place.
9 Q. Thank you. And moving to the last paragraph at the bottom of
10 page 5 of your second statement. In the B/C/S this is page 5, the third
11 paragraph. You mention an incident on the 12th of August where you
12 discovered the body of an ARSK soldier who had been shot in the chest and
13 you offer your opinion that he had been executed, and I would like you to
14 please explain for the Court what it was about the circumstances that led
15 to you form that opinion.
16 A. Yeah, for me, the body was just lying down on a straight fashion,
17 just like if the person had been lying down on his back and, you know,
18 had been shot. I'm no expert on crime scene investigation, but, for me,
19 if somebody would have been standing up and shot in the back when they
20 are falling down, his body would have probably been arm twisted, leg --
21 you know, but it wouldn't be straight.
22 Q. Thank you. And turning to page 6of your second statement, the
23 top paragraph, and in the B/C/S this is page 5, the fourth paragraph, you
24 indicate that after Operation Storm the Croatian special police often
25 stopped you from entering some villages and that you would later see
1 houses in those villages on fire.
2 I would like you to please explain for the Court these kinds of
3 incidents, how did they happen?
4 A. At that time we had been directed by General Forand to start
5 dismantling all the observation posts and return them to the -- the
6 ground in pristine condition. One of my tasks was go and oversee all the
7 dismantle of the OPs and travelling throughout the sector, several times,
8 you know, we get to a village trying to go to that village to get to an
9 observation and the special police were blocking the roads and telling us
10 it wasn't safe to go through the area because they were conducting
11 operation. And so we -- we went and tried to get to another OP and quite
12 often on the way back we could see that one or two houses in that village
13 had been set on fire.
14 Q. Thank you. You described these soldiers as Croatian special
15 police. Can you describe for the Court what they were wearing?
16 A. They were wearing one or two-piece uniform that was either, going
17 from memory, either dark grey or black. They also were wearing black
18 load bearing vest, a vest that where you could put ammunition, carry your
19 ammunition or grenades. They looked very professional.
20 Q. Thank you. And the incidents that you described where they
21 prevented you from entering villages that you later saw houses burning
22 in, could you give the Court some idea of how often this incident
24 A. Maybe three or four times. It's hard for me to recall right now.
25 Q. And are you able to tell the Court in what area generally any of
1 these incidents occurred?
2 A. I remember once or twice going toward Gracac.
3 Q. Thank you. And also in that same paragraph you state: "The
4 Croats allowed us to use the main roads but kept us away from villages on
5 the side roads."
6 Can you please explain for the Court how exactly you were kept on
7 the main roads?
8 A. They had roadblocks with check-points.
9 Q. And can you tell the Court who was manning those check-points?
10 A. The special police.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. RUSSO: Your Honours, I have no further questions for the
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bellerose.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Russo. I have one matter which I
16 would like to seek clarification of.
17 Mr. Bellerose, Mr. Russo invited you to explain to us what it was
18 that you observed which led you to conclude that the purpose of these
19 trucks was to clean up the main road, and then your answer was about what
20 they were carrying and what your experience as an engineer told you about
21 that, plywood, two by four, window replacement glass.
22 Now, if I look at your statement, I see that the portion read to
23 you by Mr. Russo is part of a sentence which is "they were tidying up the
24 main street for the benefit of the media. That is my considered belief."
25 That follows the sentence which said "they were bringing in civilian
1 trucks to clean up the main road through Knin."
2 Apparently there are two issues in your statement. One is
3 cleaning up the main road through Knin and the other one is tidying up
4 the main street for the benefit of the media.
5 The question put to you about the trucks was focussing at to
6 clean the main road. Your answer seemed to be rather reconstruction. At
7 least I have some difficulties in understanding what you exactly said,
8 also because you said it was for the benefit of the media.
9 Could you elaborate on the matters that are still puzzling me.
10 THE WITNESS: The -- when I first went into Knin after the
11 offensive -- well, let's go back.
12 When I went in town, on the main street and when we pick up
13 General Forand, there was devastation. Window glass on that street were
14 broken and there was a lot of devastation in town.
15 When we went back out to go to the water station that Wednesday,
16 the main street had been cleaned up. Now, yes, we could see devastation
17 throughout Knin, that sign of looting, but that main street in front of
18 the ARSK headquarters had been cleaned up. Window had -- glasses had
19 been replaced, and you know, it was obvious that there was some tidying
20 up that had been happening on that street.
21 And also -- I mean, that's -- also it's an opinion that, you
22 know, for me, there was -- it was a public relation because the press,
23 when they started to come to our camp to try to interview us, I recall
24 somebody from -- you know, telling me that they been restricted to
25 basically some of the main street of Knin. So this is where I probably
1 derived that statement from, that that was for the purpose of the media.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Do I have to understand that what you saw you
3 considered to be an organised attempt to make things look better than
4 actually they were. Is that, in short what you were --
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's what I'm trying to say, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bellerose, you will now be cross-examined by
10 Mr. Kehoe, who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
12 Q. Good morning, Colonel. How are you?
13 A. Thank you.
14 Q. Colonel, just turning to your statement, your first -- your
15 second statement, and that would be P546. I believe you have it in front
16 of you.
17 And you note in the first page of that document -- actually, it
18 is the second page, last paragraph that when you -- "I arrived Knin in
19 the middle of June 1995, I could feel a tension in the area. I believe
20 that everyone knew that something was going to take place."
21 Do you see that, Colonel?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, Colonel, during this time were you aware of military
24 activities by the HV in the Livno valley?
25 A. Can you refresh my memory? Where is the Livno valley --
1 Q. On the other side of the Dinara.
2 A. So that would be east of Sector South.
3 Q. Actually, that would be west of Sector South. If you're looking
4 out the front, it would be west.
5 A. Yes, I do recall, yeah.
6 Q. Oh, you do, okay. Now -- I do apologise, that is east. As you
7 look to the right that is east you're absolutely right?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, whatever direction you look, things are
9 always east or west from other point, or north or south, but it doesn't
10 change if we look at it from a different way.
11 MR. KEHOE: That's true, it was east.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. KEHOE: I apologise, it was east.
14 Q. Now you were aware of that, were you, sir?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And during this time when you got here there was a --
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt. Mr. Bellerose, you quickly
18 moved from east to west. That's not what you're supposed to do if it
19 really is east.
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, I understand. But I didn't recall the Livno
21 valley afterwards.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. But the last --
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- last words of Mr. Kehoe were "it would it be
25 would be west," and then you said "yes, I do recall." That is at least
1 ambiguous. Could you try to focus very much on what is said and what
2 your answer is.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
6 MR. KEHOE:
7 Q. And my apologies, Colonel, I mean I was the confusing party here,
8 Your Honour, and I do apologise to the Court, to the witness, and the
9 Livno valley is in fact east.
10 Now, the tension did include hijackings by the RSK, didn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you were forced to travel in pairs?
13 A. That was hijacking a vehicle and not personnel, yeah.
14 Q. Hijacking of vehicles but you were forced to travel in pairs?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And if I may and if I can turn to your diary, which is 65 ter
18 A. Can I see a copy of the diary? I don't have it in front of me,
20 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I did bring a hard copy for the witness
21 in case this happened.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I take it that there is no objections.
23 MR. KEHOE: Quite all right, quite all right. Colonel,
24 absolutely. And frankly, I apologise for not having it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist Mr. Russo.
1 Thank you.
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Turning your attention to the 28th of July, 1995, and that would
4 be at page -- if we're looking at the top of that document it is
5 06354619. At the bottom of the page. If we can page up till 28th of
6 July using the -- let's just go to the bottom of that page.
7 28th of July, notes "interesting day. HV, HVO, Croatians took
8 the town of Bosansko Grahovo in Bosnia-Herzegovina. This cut one of the
9 Serbs' main supply routes. General mobilisation is happening in town."
10 Now taking that general mobilisation happening in town, I'd like
11 to read a piece of testimony from a Prosecution witness a UN CIVPOL
12 representative Jan Elleby. And he noted at page 3474, line 6: "Now as
13 we move through July of 1995, you note in your supplemental information
14 sheet -- well, I actually think it begins on P214 -- that you saw a lot
15 of soldiers in the street. In your supplemental sheet you note that you
16 observed an increased number of RSK troops in Knin in this period. In
17 the period building up to the beginning of Operation Storm can you tell
18 us about that a little bit."
19 "Answer: Yes, the assessment of the picture in the streets in
20 the town was that from a few days in July and up to the end of July there
21 came more and more military vehicles, more and more uniformed military
23 "Question: And did you and our CIVPOL monitors observe that
24 while you were driving around the area.
25 "Answer is: Yes."
1 Now, you know note there was a general mobilisation in town and
2 Mr. Elleby notes that will more and more uniformed personnel. Is
3 Mr. Elleby's observations consistent with your own and do they likewise
4 reflect your statement in your diary that a general mobilisation is
5 happening in town?
6 A. If we go to my statement in my diary, I believe that the
7 statement came from information that was passed at one of the staff
8 meeting at the sector headquarters.
9 For me, on the day leading to 4th and 5th of August, during that
10 period, I was very busy visiting every observation post, so I used to
11 leave Knin quite earlier in the morning to be at the various observation
12 posts. So quite often, when I was leaving the town, I didn't see too
13 many people on the street, and when I was driving through the sector, I
14 didn't see. So, I cannot comment on -- on that.
15 Q. Well, when you -- and I'm just waiting for the translation to
16 catch up, Colonel.
17 When the issue of general mobilisation came to your attention at
18 Sector South headquarters, what did these other individuals say that the
19 ARSK was doing to mobilise?
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. Well, I'm talking about the town of -- of Knin itself. While you
22 were driving in there did you observe men wearing camouflage uniforms?
23 A. Yes, I did, sometime.
24 Q. And the people that were in camouflage uniforms, did you note
25 that they were in a large age category from young men to older men?
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Were you aware that ARSK had arms depots around Knin?
3 A. Before I went -- or before the 4th and 5th, I was unaware. I was
4 made aware of one of them afterwards, near Strmica, or on the road
5 between the water station and Strmica. I could not locate it on a map.
6 Q. So you were never there yourself?
7 A. I was there, but it was afterwards when everything had been
8 removed from the site.
9 Q. Now, likewise during this period of time if we can turn to your
10 diary at 06354598, the ARSK was restricting your movement, weren't they?
11 A. Which paragraph?
12 Q. It's the top of the page on 06354598, the entry for June 22nd.
13 It should be paragraph 3 for June 22nd. You see that second sentence:
14 "I don't know why, but sometimes they restrict our movement."
15 A. It did happen on several occasions.
16 Q. So the ARSK was preventing you from going to certain locations?
17 A. Yes, can I remember twice.
18 Q. And what locations were they?
19 A. I cannot recall.
20 Q. Now, you note in your diary, as we read previously, that
21 Bosansko Grahovo fell towards the latter part of July. Were you aware
22 that after that the ARSK was planning a counterattack against the HV to
23 retake Grahovo?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, just by way of background you knew the importance of Knin to
1 the RSK, did you not?
2 A. Not really. Well, other than being the former capital of the
3 Krajina, so ...
4 Q. And was it considered in your conversations with your colleagues
5 and anybody else in the area, was Knin considered to be the centre of the
6 Republic of Serb
7 A. I don't remember discussing this or ...
8 Q. Now, Colonel, what I'd like to do at this point is touch on a few
9 topics that are referred in your statement and that were also referred to
10 by Mr. Russo. So to the extent that we're jumping around a little bit --
11 A. No. Also, maybe I would like to clarify to the Court, I know
12 Mr. Kehoe, you're referring to me as a Colonel but I did retire as a
13 lieutenant-colonel, so I'm retired right now, so I just ...
14 Q. I understand, Judge. It's a habit out of respect and as long
15 as -- if you're uncomfortable with it, I'll call you Mr. Bellerose.
16 A. No, I don't have a problem, it's just to clarify.
17 Q. I understand.
18 Now, you noted during the course of your direct testimony about
19 observation posts, and you talked about some of these observations posts
20 being poorly constructed and we're going to get to that in a second?
21 I would first, with regard to the weaponry involved, you did see
22 the ARSK with heavy weaponry while you were in the area, did you not?
23 A. During the period that I was there what I saw was some -- few
24 artillery piece, some D-20 being towed. I saw one D 34/85 with a --
25 missing a cannon where the cannon was broken and I saw a couple of BMP.
1 Q. And what is a BMP?
2 A. I'm sorry?
3 Q. What is the last one?
4 A. BMP, it Russian-made armoured personnel carrier.
5 Q. Let's talk about that for a second and talk about the D-20s that
6 is in fact in your diary. At June the 20th, page 06354595 towards the
7 bottom. Paragraph 6.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. "On the way to JorBat we saw six artillery pieces being towed.
10 They were IDd as ID-20s. They were going towards Benkovac."
11 I would like to pull up on the screen, and I think we have to do
12 this via Sanction, Your Honour. I stand corrected. It is now in e-court
13 and it is 1D36-0008.
14 These are two pages, Colonel, from a UN recognition handbook of
15 the former Yugoslavia
16 that is issued -- had been issued by the national defence.
17 And if we could then turn to the next page.
18 Colonel, that is a D 20 Howitzer, a 152 millimetre with an
19 effective rage of 17.3 kilometres.
20 You saw six of those being towed by the ARSK?
21 A. I believe so.
22 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we'll offer into evidence
24 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D512, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D512 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. Colonel, you said in your diary that these were headed towards
5 Benkovac. Do you know in fact where they went?
6 A. No, I don't. No, I don't remember where they went. We radioed
7 in and hoping that UNMO were going to follow up on the lead.
8 Q. Now, this weapon, this D 20, it notes it goes into a Howitzer
9 category, right?
10 A. I believe so.
11 Q. Just staying, if we will, for the co -- this OPs, the observation
12 posts that were looking at and examining and you tell us in your
13 statement that General Forand had you looking at these various
14 observation posts. And let me just turn your attention to your diary
15 again, 65 ter 5282 [sic].
16 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time if I could just offer into
17 evidence the diary 65 ter 5285.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
19 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number D513, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that then the whole of the diary --
23 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- you're speaking to be admitted.
25 MR. KEHOE: It's not that long, Judge.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D513 is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Now, Colonel, if we can move to your entry of the 12th of July on
4 06354612, paragraph 1. That's towards the bottom of the page.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I'm just waiting for it to come up on the screen, Colonel, so
7 others can view it.
8 At the bottom it says: "Today the commander Brigadier-General
9 Forand had a conference with all the battalion commanders to discuss op
10 or 0795 SCR 981 and he -- his proposal option 1 and 2, "I was present and
11 everybody doesn't agree with the sector commander, the orders do not make
13 What is that order, sir, the SCR 981?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. Let me turn your attention just briefly to D288, which is the
16 order for active presence.
17 If we can turn to the next page.
18 Colonel, this is an order written by General Al Rodan on the 24th
19 of July 1995 and you can see at paragraph D it has the SCR 981, 95. Were
20 you familiar with this order for active presence?
21 A. I have to have a look at it.
22 Q. Please do, just have a quick look at it.
23 A. Is it possible to zoom a little bit?
24 Q. Sure.
25 A. I don't remember seeing that document before.
1 Q. Okay, sir. Well, the meeting that you had we just had from the
2 diary was on the 12th, and you noted in your statement, and I'm talking
3 about page -- statements page 2 and 3 and that would be -- page -- P546,
4 I believe. Yes, P546. Two and three in the English. Talking about the
5 observation posts towards the bottom: "These Serb OPs are overlooking
6 the Zone of Separation and were sometimes built close to the UN
7 observation posts. Several were built very close to CanBat OPs and the
8 Brigadier-General ordered that the Kenyans make the Serbs move their OPs
9 and as a result of this, some of the Serb OPs were moved and others were
11 So during this period of time there was a series co-location
12 problem where the ARSK forces were in the same location of the UN
13 observation posts. Isn't that right?
14 A. In the Kenyan sector, yes.
15 Q. And you noted that -- well, let me turn to your diary very
16 quickly -- well, before I get into it just in the Kenyan section, weren't
17 there co-location problems in the CanBat areas and near Obrovac and
18 Rastovac and Petrum [phoen] and Priste [phoen], weren't there co-location
19 problems in those locales as well?
20 A. I remember one in the Canadian and that was on I believe the big
21 mountain called Petrum, yeah.
22 Q. You don't recall any of the others?
23 A. No.
24 Q. But you visited them all?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So did you visit them starting in June and up till
2 Operation Storm?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. So it is possible that the co-location problem came in -- became
5 a problem after you visited that observation post?
6 A. Correct. Especially -- well, in the Canadian sector their OP
7 were in very good condition so when General Forand asked us to reinforce
8 the observation post, I concentrate into the Canadian and the Jordanian
9 OP -- the Kenyan and Jordanian. Sorry.
10 Q. Now these observation posts where there was co-location was
11 readily observable, wasn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what was -- what was the reaction of the HV when they
14 observed the UN observation posts and the ARSK observation posts
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Did you ask?
18 A. I'm sorry?
19 Q. Did you ask anybody?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mentioned to us that some of the ARSK observation posts were
22 not of a higher quality. Is that right?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And would they have been in the CanBat area?
25 A. The one that I saw on mount Prism
1 good protection.
2 Q. And I -- I -- I apologise there. I think I came across as
3 CanBat. I'm talking about KenBat.
4 A. Oh, Ken.
5 Q. Excuse me. Was one of the areas that you --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could we in order to avoid any confusion and also to
7 make the work of the transcribers possible make a distinction between
8 Canadian and Kenyan clearly and not just by referring to them as can --
9 whether it is pronounced as can or ken. It goes beyond my --
10 MR. KEHOE: Beyond ken.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. KEHOE: I do apologise, because part is my pronunciation as
13 well, apologies.
14 Q. I'm talking about the Kenyan battalion. Was one of the locations
15 that you noted as being substandard in the Kenyan battalion area?
16 A. Yes, both the Kenyan and the Serb OP were very substandard.
17 Q. Let me turn your attention to your diary on the 13th of July,
18 that's page 06354614, the day after your meeting with General Forand.
19 Do you see that, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It notes: "With CO Kenyan bat, KenBat, to do a requi for his new
22 HQ. We found a place presently occupied by the Serbs. We can have the
23 site provided we gave them 5.000 litres of diesel and 200 litres of
24 petrol. Chief of Staff -- " that would be Colonel Leslie, right?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. " -- agreed to 500 litres and 100 litres. Sector commander was
2 not informed and will be kept in the dark. Only a few people will know
3 about the deal."
4 Now, first part of this, Colonel, is that you wanted a location
5 for the Kenyan battalion that was being occupied by the Serbs.
6 A. Correct. What was happening was the Kenyan battalion
7 headquarters was located really close to the Canadian -- to the Canadian
8 sector. And the idea was to relocate that headquarters so it would be
9 more centralised within their own area of responsibility.
10 Q. My point is that there was a location that was being occupied by
11 the Serbs that the UN wanted.
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And they wanted it so much, they were willing to pay the Serbs
14 for that location.
15 A. The problem at that site is there was some Serb vehicle, some
16 trucks, and it -- in order for those truck to be moved, they needed fuel.
17 Q. Yeah. My question was, in order to get that particular location,
18 you were willing to pay the Serbs. Isn't that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in order to move the Serb trucks, you didn't need 500 litres
21 of diesel and a 100 litres of petrol, did you?
22 A. I believe we did.
23 Q. Well, sir, if you needed that, why didn't you tell General
25 A. I reported to the Chief of Staff. I don't know why General
1 Leslie didn't want to talk to General Forand.
2 Q. So it was General Leslie's decision to keep this information away
3 from General Forand?
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. Now, what -- have you concluded what the reaction of the HV was
6 when they found out that the UN was selling petrol to the Serbs?
7 A. Can you repeat that, please?
8 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Perhaps there could be some
10 JUDGE ORIE: Selling petrol to the Serbs. Could you --
11 MR. KEHOE: Sure.
12 Q. Did you learn, Colonel, that the HV found out that the UN was
13 selling diesel fuel and petrol to the Serbs?
14 A. No.
15 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I'm not sure where the
16 selling of the petrol to the Serbs is coming from.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not make it too much of a semantic discussion
18 where under commercial law it would be --
19 MR. KEHOE: Bartering.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- completed -- well, at least one -- apparently
21 what happened at least from what I understand until now is that 500
22 litres of diesel are given in return to allowing the UN forces to have a
23 certain position. Whether you would call that selling or not is not, I
24 think, the major issue.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, if I may, there is foundation for
1 this in Mr. Hill's testimony which was confirmed by General Forand that
2 approximately a million litres of fuel was going missing a month and
3 General Forand did confirm that it was being black marketed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, black marketed. But I have not yet hear --
5 whether this is black market or not is still to be seen or whether it is
6 a fair compensation for some disadvantage. You could give it a lot of
7 names. At this movement what apparently stands is that 500 litres,
8 although 5.000 were asked, were given in return --
9 MR. KEHOE: 1.000 were asked, Judge.
10 JUDGE ORIE: 1.000. Oh, then I had difficulties in --
11 MR. KEHOE: I think it says 1.000 litres of diesel and 2.000
12 litres of petrol. I said five. It should be one.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, in the original the handwriting it -- we could
14 even ask the witness because he is --
15 MR. KEHOE: Ask the witness, absolutely.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did -- what was asked, 5.000 or a thousand litres, I
17 think, so apart from the 200 litres of petrol, what was the initial
19 THE WITNESS: There was one thousand.
20 JUDGE ORIE: One thousand, yes. Is a bit unclear in writing.
21 But that is clarified.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
23 MR. KEHOE:
24 Q. Now, continuing on, staying in your diary there Colonel, it says:
25 "Only a few people will know about this deal."
1 Who knew about it?
2 A. General Leslie, myself, and I'm not quite sure about who would
3 have been the other person. Probably -- if I was to speculate, probably
4 somebody into the logistics section.
5 Q. In the logistics section?
6 A. Well, somebody would have to account for the fuel, I guess.
7 Q. And who would that be?
8 A. I don't recall.
9 Q. Did Captain Berikoff know about this?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Colonel, let me ask you, what -- you said that you didn't know if
12 the HV found out about this. What would you expect the HV reaction to be
13 if they became aware of this transaction?
14 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I don't see the relevance of
15 that question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from that, it calls for speculation.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KEHOE: Okay, Your Honour.
19 Q. Well, you would agree, Colonel, that over time, a degree of
20 suspicion and -- there was -- let me withdraw that.
21 You would agree that certainly after Operation Storm there was an
22 uncomfortable arrangement between the HV and the UN Sector South as to
23 how the relationship was going to proceed. Isn't that so?
24 A. I had very, very little dealing with HV troops after
25 Operation Storm. For me, I had maybe one or two meeting with them,
1 trying to found out the location of their minefield. Most of the dealing
2 with the HV was done, I believe, with lieutenant-colonel Tymchuk, which
3 was the Senior Liaison Officer.
4 Q. Well, you were aware that the HV viewed the UN with suspicion,
5 don't you?
6 A. I believe so.
7 Q. And part of that suspicion -- let's put aside what happened with
8 the OPs and the fuel. Part of that suspicion came with how the UN dealt
9 with the Serbs that were in the UN Sector South camp after August the
10 4th, 1995. Isn't that so?
11 A. I don't understand the question.
12 Q. Well, let me --
13 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I'm going to go into this at some
14 length. I don't know if Your Honour wants to break now or I can keep
15 going on.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think to have the break now would be better.
17 Mr. Russo.
18 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour, I have been informed about an issue
19 regarding the address of the witness in the witness statements. At this
20 point I would ask for them to be temporarily admitted under seal. I will
21 have redacted versions uploaded so that his full address is not viewable
22 if that's all right with the Defense.
23 MR. KEHOE: Absolutely, block all of it out, all the personal
24 information out.
25 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.
1 MR. KEHOE: Everything.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a general offer, Mr. Kehoe?
3 MR. KEHOE: Just Judge, look, I've been around this for a while.
4 It's a general offer if you're talking about -- not the whole thing but
5 you know, the personal information, the Colonel's address, et cetera, of
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, for the time being, the witness
8 statements will be under seal, because the address of the witness
10 Then we will have a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: For the parties' information, I will put a request
14 to the court management services to see whether there is any possibility
15 to get the clock in my room at a different time than 12 minutes before
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KEHOE: Thank you.
19 Q. Colonel, just being go back, I noted for you that at line -- I
20 believe it is line 5, page 41, part of the suspicion came with how the UN
21 dealt with the Serbs that were in UN Sector South camp after August the
22 4th, 1995. Isn't that so?
23 And you noted: "I don't understand."
24 Let's explore the Serbs that came into the camp on the night of
25 the 4th, and let turn to your statement, if I may. And that would be at
1 page 4 of P546 and the fourth full paragraph down you note: "A large
2 number of displaced people were gathering outside the camp, our camp.
3 They were asking for UN protection. These people were either civilians
4 or children. There were no people of military service age."
5 If we could scroll down to the bottom of that page.
6 "Late on the evening of the 4th August 1995, we started to let
7 the displaced people into the UN camp. Each person was searched for
8 weapons and their personal details recorded. No Serb soldiers were
9 allowed to enter the camp."
10 Do you see that, sir?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Now that last statement "no Serb soldiers were allowed to enter
13 the camp," that is not true, is it?
14 A. I'm not sure.
15 Q. Let's turn to -- if we can put 1D36-0001 on the screen. And this
16 is an interview you did for Esprit De Corps entitled One Soldier's Story.
17 If we could go to the first page of that. And then turn to the second
18 page. And if we could just scroll up a bit. The other way, please.
19 That's fine, right there.
20 You note, and this is then talking about the people coming into
21 the camp: "Yes, there were civilians and some military. Because we
22 opened up the camp to displaced people to provide security, there were a
23 few Serb soldiers that came to try to get refuge within our camp. So we
24 said to them, 'If you want to come in, have you to disarm because if we
25 let you in with your weapons we're putting ourselves at risk.'
1 "So the condition was that if you want to come in, disarm
2 yourself and you will be like everybody else. Some Serbs refused to
3 disarm themselves so they stuck around outside the camp and those are
4 some of the guys that were killed by a mortar round outside the camp."
5 So, Colonel, you in fact did allow Serb soldiers into the camp,
6 didn't you?
7 A. When you say "I," you mean the UN, not me personally.
8 Q. Well, let's go back to your statement. In your statement - not
9 the interview - in your statement of P546, where you say "no Serb
10 soldiers were allowed to enter the camp," that is not true, is it?
11 A. My statement referred to the initial time when we let the people
12 into the camp. When we first opened the gate, no Serb soldiers were
13 allowed into the camp. That changed sometime during the night of -- of
14 the 5th or the 6th without my knowledge at that time.
15 Q. So how many Serb soldiers were allowed into the camp?
16 A. I wouldn't know.
17 Q. Well, you do know that on the 5th -- by the way, were you present
18 when these people were searched coming in?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I mean, did you have conversations with Captain Berikoff about
21 what they found on these people?
22 A. No. Because, for me, General Forand gave me the task to get the
23 camp organised. My main task was to set up a compound to hold the
24 displaced people and organise them. So I had my Slovak engineers
25 building the compound, getting accommodation sorted out. I believe the
1 military police were looking after security. The civilian administrator
2 and the staff were looking to feed the people, so there was a lot of
3 activities going on and I couldn't be everywhere and look everywhere. I
4 had appointed two people -- two Serb, two -- one elderly gentleman and a
5 lady as to the point of contact between the Serb and the UN, if we had
6 any information to pass, I would pass that information to them and if
7 they had any requests, those were the only two that were talking to me.
8 So I was running all over the place and was pretty hard for me to keep
9 track of who was at the gate, who was coming in or not.
10 Q. Colonel, going back to your interview, going back to your
11 interview where you said that Serb soldiers disarmed, how many disarmed?
12 A. I don't know. That -- that information would have been the
13 discussion way after it happened with either Captain Hill, because we
14 were neighbour at one time recollecting and talking about wartime in --
15 in Croatia
16 records of all the name of the people coming in and the details, so I
17 would not know.
18 Q. So who told that you Serb soldiers had been allowed into the
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. Now, Colonel, is there some reason why you didn't you include
22 this information in the witness statement you gave to the Office of the
24 A. Probably because I didn't remember.
25 Q. Now, Colonel, if we may, if I can address our attention to --
1 MR. KEHOE: Oh, yes, by the way, Your Honour, I do apologise for
2 not tendering this article. If I can just offer at this time 1D36-0001.
3 MR. RUSSO: No objection.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, could you tell us what the date is of
5 this interview.
6 MR. KEHOE: I know it is it from the magazine called Esprit de
7 Corps, Your Honour, and I will have to go back to the hard copy and find
8 it. Mr. Misetic is much more adept at moving through this than I, and he
9 says he can find it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bellerose, I'm asking this, do you remember when
11 you gave that interview?
12 THE WITNESS: Probably two years ago, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Because your last answer was that you left it out of
14 your statement, that's the statement given in 1999, because you might
15 have forgotten it, but apparently then in 2006 you still required what
16 happened. That comes as a bit of a surprise.
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, just after that -- after that
18 statement in 1999, Captain Hill and myself were neighbour for a period
19 of -- and we might have had some discussion and maybe talking about it,
20 you know, about what happened in Knin or whatever, just ...
21 JUDGE ORIE: When Mr. Kehoe said to you that -- that no Serb
22 soldiers were admitted into camp, that that was not true, then you
23 said -- I think you said maybe, or something. Let me just check.
24 You said I think I'm not sure. "I'm not sure," you said. You
25 were sure at that time, weren't you?
1 THE WITNESS: I wasn't sure, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But now, what was said in that interview, are you
3 sure about that or are you -- I'm just trying to find out --
4 THE WITNESS: For me, Your Honour, I don't remember seeing
5 soldiers into the camp. By soldiers I mean people wearing combat
6 clothing, okay? I just -- or person of fighting age. At first, there
7 was 400 displaced people at the gate. I believe by the time they all
8 left, there was over a thousand. I was very busy, was all over the
9 place. I don't remember. From the interview, could have been from
10 hearsay with talking with Captain Hill, you know, him saying that or
11 remembering something, but to be absolutely sure that I never saw,
12 well --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask the following. Don't you think that it
14 would be have been appropriate when questions were asked about this to
15 say, Well, whatever I said in my statement, I later learned that they
16 were admitted, although it is hearsay information and it is not my
17 personal observation. That would be the most complete answer which I
18 would have expected under those circumstances.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. Now let us continue on if I can bring up P55.
22 MR. KEHOE: By the way Judge, Mr. Misetic just informed me of the
23 date of that magazine article, which was August 1, 2006.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. KEHOE: 1 August 2006
1 JUDGE ORIE: And I think you were tendering it --
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- when I intervened. And there were no objections,
4 Mr. Russo.
5 Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D513.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D513 is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. RUSSO: Sorry, I thought the diary was D513.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honours. This becomes D514.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Russo. D514, being the
12 publication in the, what was it called, the corps --
13 MR. KEHOE: Esprit De Corps.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- Esprit De Corps, yes, is admitted into evidence.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could bring up P55.
17 Q. This is a witness statement, Colonel, of a nurse at the hospital,
18 gave testimony for the Prosecution in this case.
19 If we can turn to the second page, paragraph 2, last sentence.
20 If we can blow that up just a bit, centre of the page. Last two
21 sentences. She's talking about the 5th: "There were 35 patients left
22 behind in the hospital because they were not in a state where they could
23 have gotten on a bus or the trucks. Most of these 35 were soldiers that
24 had been wounded on the previous day."
25 If we can go down to paragraph 4: "We arrived at the UN camp and
1 told the translator that we needed to evacuate the seriously wounded.
2 Five minutes later, three UN vehicles came with us. The UN vehicles were
3 following our ambulance because they were worried about being shot at by
4 RSK soldiers. The UN vehicles picked up 15 of the wounded and we took
5 them to the UN camp. They came back and took 15 more seriously wounded."
6 Now, Colonel, in addition to the soldiers that came in the night
7 of the 4th into the 5th, the UN brought ARSK soldiers into the compound
8 that you had set up inside the camp, didn't they?
9 A. I'm not aware of us sending ambulance to pick up wounded soldier
10 from the hospital and bring them in. That's first time I hear about
12 Q. Well, is it your testimony, Colonel, that you knew nothing about
13 wounded soldiers being brought into the UN Sector South camp? Is that
14 your testimony?
15 A. I don't -- I don't remember that.
16 Q. You don't remember?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Well, do you recall that UN Sector South ultimately turned over
19 38 individuals suspected of war crimes to the Republic of Croatia
20 you recall that?
21 A. No.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. KEHOE:
24 Q. Just to clarify one answer that you gave that Mr. Misetic noted.
25 You said that you didn't remember the UN sending ambulances to
1 pick up -- and I'm talking about line 14: "I'm not aware of us sending
2 ambulance to pick up wounded soldiers from the hospital and bring them
3 in. That's the first time I hear about that."
4 A. Mm-hm.
5 Q. Were you aware of the UN sending APCs to pick up wounded soldiers
6 from the hospital?
7 A. No. The only APC that I remember going there is was -- was on
8 the 4th was I went over there with two APC, one M-113, one OT-64 to
9 deliver medical supply.
10 MR. KEHOE: If I may.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. Colonel, one last question on this subject. Do you know of
14 anyone from the UN that went to the hospital to pick up anybody on the
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Now, you note in your statement, and we're talking about the
18 water issues that was addressed on direct examination, and you noted for
19 us that the water-pumping station had been hit by shell fire.
20 A. I didn't mention that it was being hit by shell, the pumping, I
21 didn't say that. I said some of the lines seem to have been damaged on
22 the ground because of shelling and that had been reported to me by some
23 UN engineer.
24 Q. When you got there, you did manage to restore the water, didn't
25 you, the water flow?
1 A. Yes, we did.
2 Q. Now, when this was going on, sir, was there a public debate about
3 the difficult circumstances under which UN Sector South found itself and
4 that situations like water or having water on the base were quite
5 desperate? And I refer you to page 5, paragraph 1, 2, 3, 4, first full
7 Do you see that: "The Croats kept us in the camp for a
8 considerable time."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. "The Croats kept us in the UN camp for some considerable
11 time. We started to run out of water and things were quite desperate."
12 Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that is approximately the 9th of August?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who is Major Balfour?
17 A. Major Balfour was one of the staff officer in the headquarter.
18 Q. Did you know him?
19 A. I know of him, not very well, but I know -- I know him.
20 Q. Let me show you D333.
21 MR. KEHOE: If we could blow up this -- or just take a look at
22 this just generally.
23 Q. This is an UN Sector South from HQ Sector South and goes to the
24 National Defence headquarters of Canada -- to Canada
25 the day you left the camp.
1 If I can go to bottom of this at 1800 in the third sentence. "I
2 suspect that UNPF sitreps may exaggerate the situation -- " let me back
3 up there.
4 "Extra page will answer your water/food question. I suspect that
5 UNPF sitreps may exaggerate the situation for political/diplomatic
6 effect. No real problem here with drinking water or food, even feeding
7 700 plus refugees."
8 Now, Colonel, during this time was UN Sector South publicly
9 complaining about the Croatians keeping UN in their camp with water
10 running out when in fact water was not running out and was being
11 exaggerated for political and diplomatic effect?
12 A. As far as I'm concerned, water was a problem. And if we look at
13 the sitrep from Mr. Major Balfour, it also say domestic water was a
14 concern and may become a crisis if power is not restored to Knin. I
15 don't believe that we were crying wolf, saying that we had a problem when
16 we didn't. Because from what I recall from my time in Croatia, usually
17 our supply used to come on Friday. The offensive started on Friday and
18 we didn't get our resupply then.
19 So we -- as far as I'm concerned we never got the resupply for
20 that week, so we were continuing to feed our own people and people from
21 the refugees with very little food that we had. Yes, the UNHCR opened up
22 their stores so we could get flour so with that flour we were able to
23 make some bread. But as far as I'm concerned we were having a problem
24 with water.
25 Q. Colonel, what was major Balfour's position at this time?
1 MR. RUSSO: Objection, Your Honour.
2 MR. KEHOE: What's his position.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Formal position, I take it.
4 MR. KEHOE: His formal position.
5 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry. I thought he was asking for an opinion or
6 impression about something.
7 MR. KEHOE: No, no, no. I apologise. Wasn't a clear question, I
9 Q. What was his position in UN Sector South?
10 A. Major Balfour was a staff officer in the headquarters. I believe
11 he worked for -- at the time he was a captain, I believe he worked for
12 Major Dussault, the operation officer.
13 Q. At this point he is a major; do you see?
14 A. I guess he is, yeah.
15 Q. Isn't it a fact that Balfour was working for General Forand at
16 this time?
17 A. He was either working for General Forand or For Major Dussault,
18 it was one of the two. I don't fully recall.
19 Q. We'll move on.
20 MR. KEHOE: If I may just have one second.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. I want to move back, Colonel, to the period of time that just
24 prior to Operation Storm and you mentioned previously in your diary about
25 the general mobilisation that had taken place on the 28th.
1 And, if I may, turning back to your diary, if I can get the
2 correct exhibit number.
3 MR. KEHOE: What is that number? If I can call it up by the
4 right number.
5 MR. RUSSO: It's D513.
6 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much, Mr. Russo.
7 Q. Now, in your diary you note that -- and this is at -- for
8 July 28th. It would be page 05354629. 4620, excuse me.
9 If we can just go back one page.
10 Now, Colonel, this is the 28th, if we can scroll up that bottom
11 28th entry, this is the day that we referred to previously, the 28th,
12 where you note that the fall of Grahovo had taken place and that general
13 mobilisation had likewise taken place.
14 And let us turn to the next page, at the top. Also on the
15 28th --
16 Can we scroll that down.
17 Okay. You note that the locals are leaving the area.
18 Now, Colonel, were you aware that on the 28th of July the
19 president of the Krajina Serb, Milan Martic had declared a state of war?
20 A. No, I wasn't aware.
21 Q. Staying with this, he said: "Locals are leaving the area."
22 And if we can turn down to the next item on the 29th you note
23 again: "The people in Knin are nervous. A lot of them are leaving town,
24 and refugees from Bosansko Grahovo are arriving."
25 Tell me how you came to learn that the locals were leaving town.
1 A. That could have been one from one of the staff meeting in the
2 morning that the information would have been passed on.
3 Q. Well, did you know of it yourself?
4 A. Not that I recall, no.
5 Q. Well, let me turn your attention to --
6 MR. KEHOE: And if I can just go into private session, Judge,
7 because this is a closed session witness, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Page 5910 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 MR. KEHOE:
11 Q. And just for the record, Judge, I think that anything talking
12 about that particular exhibit that we can -- on -- I can go back and take
13 a look at the transcript, Your Honour, and tell you when we can go back
14 into open session, because I think -- I don't think I alerted Your
15 Honour --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is -- to change from private session to
17 open session is a rather difficult exercise, but so therefore let's see
18 what the importance is or whether there is any other way to make clear to
19 the public what happened.
20 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. But for the record I could go back
21 to the transcript and say what questions need not be in private session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We move back into private session.
11 [Private session]
11 Page 5913 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Now, Colonel, in your statement on page 3, paragraph 3, actually
14 the second full paragraph, you note that you spoke to Colonel Leslie and
15 Major Mark Dussault at 2300 hours on the 3rd of August and they told you
16 that something was going to happen the next day. Is that right?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. So the conclusion of the individuals there was that the war was
19 going to start the following day. Isn't that right?
20 A. I guess so.
21 Q. Could you tell me what steps Colonel Leslie took after he
22 received this information to alert all UN personnel that war was going to
23 commence the next morning?
24 A. I don't remember any step that he took.
25 Q. Well, at that time, did he -- you recall him sending APCs out,
1 like he ordered you the next day to pick up UN personnel that were in the
3 A. I don't remember that, no.
4 Q. So you don't remember him doing anything?
5 A. No. What I remember is him and Major Dussault were talking. I
6 stood by, said -- you know, we talked a little bit, said something might
7 happen tomorrow. They're not sure, and I said, well, I will keep my ears
8 open and I went to my -- to bed.
9 Q. Did you ever ask Colonel Leslie after the fact why he didn't --
10 didn't call in a code red and bring everybody back in as soon as he got
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Let's turn our attention to the trip you took into Knin on the
14 4th. And this would be, according to your statement P545, between 1600
15 and 1800 hours.
16 And if we may, if we could pull up P62, I believe it is, which
17 should be a blank overhead of Knin.
18 While we're bringing up this up, Colonel, the reason why you
19 couldn't go out earlier was because the Serbs had mined the front of the
20 camp. Is that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And I think you also say during the course of your statement - I
23 believe it is it on page 4 - that a Russian officer, and I think it is
24 the bottom of page 3, last paragraph, that one of the Russian members of
25 UNMO left the camp with someone else and walked into Knin.
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So in the middle of the shelling this UNMO walks into Knin. Is
4 that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And where did he go?
7 A. I believe he went to the Serb headquarters.
8 Q. And did he walk back?
9 A. I wasn't there when he came back. I just saw him leaving,
10 walking. I don't remember how he came back.
11 Q. Now, just turning our attention to P62, which is an overhead of
12 Knin, and just take a second to orient yourself. I mean, it is the same
13 map as you drew on previously in P547. But if we can and with the
14 assistance of the usher, could you map for us, Colonel, the path that you
15 followed and I believe our colour is blue, isn't it. I believe we're
16 using a blue marker. Could you map for us the path that you took that
17 time between 1600 and 1800 on the 4th?
18 A. That's to go to the hospital?
19 Q. I think you actually -- didn't you say you stopped at the RSK HQ,
20 dropped off General Forand and then went on to the hospital.
21 A. Correct. I cannot map the path, because I was inside the APC,
22 okay? I wasn't the guy in the cupola directing the driver where to go.
23 So was inside the vehicle. But I remember some of the area where we did
25 Q. So you can't tell us based -- were you down in the APC the entire
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So what was on that road as you were travelling, you didn't see?
4 A. I didn't see it. What I saw is when we were stopped and that's
5 when I got out of the APC.
6 Q. Now, when you went to the hospital, and we are looking at page 4
7 of paragraph 4, and that would be the first paragraph -- not the
8 carry-over paragraph on 4, it would be the first full paragraph, you
9 observe Serb soldiers in uniform, didn't you?
10 A. Injured, yes.
11 Q. Injured.
12 A. Well --
13 Q. You concluded that they were Serb soldiers is the point.
14 A. Yeah. Because I believe that's because they might be wearing
15 some fatigues, uniform.
16 Q. Now, likewise, later on in the day when you saw people that were
17 dead on the street, you saw people that were in uniform and I think you
18 responded to Judge Orie that you concluded that they were soldiers as
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Now, you note in this -- in your statement that, if I may, and
22 I'm just -- that you note that it looked as if the hospital had been
23 damaged, looked as if one corner of the hospital had been hit by a shell,
24 it was damaged.
25 Was it?
1 A. From what I recall, yes.
2 Q. Did you ever learn any information from any other member of the
3 UN that the -- that UN -- excuse me, that the hospital in Knin had been
4 hit by a shell, anyone?
5 A. Not that I recall.
6 Q. Now, you note, and I'm just going through your statement, again,
7 on page 4 and this is the second full paragraph: "Driving through Knin
8 on this mission, I saw a great deal of devastation."
9 Now, use P62 that is on the screen, sir, and tell us where you
10 saw this great devastation.
11 MR. KEHOE: If we could use the assistance of the usher.
12 Q. Now, let's mark the first one A and the second one B, all right,
13 and C.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. Let's start with A. What were you doing in the area marked A?
16 A. I believe we were trying to get civilian UN personnel and UN
18 Q. Who?
19 A. I don't remember the names. Just one that I remember, it's one
20 former Canadian -- well, a RCMP, Norm Boucher, but I don't remember
21 exactly where he lived, so ...
22 Q. So you don't know if Mr. Boucher lived in the area marked as A?
23 A. Or it could be B.
24 Q. Or B.
25 A. Or B. It just -- I don't exactly remember.
1 Q. In relation to A do you know where the police station is?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know where the Sanjak barracks is?
4 A. What is the Sanjak? Is that what we refer to as the north
6 Q. North barracks -- well, you can identify it. Can you see where
7 the north barracks is? It's got a tag on it.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know where the Sanjak barracks is?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Who were you travelling with in the APC when you went to pick
12 these people up?
13 A. There was lieutenant, Jordanian that was living the M-113. I
14 don't remember his name. He is the one that had the street address and
15 the OT-64 was driven by Slovak or Czech soldiers that were following the
17 Q. So, Colonel, can you give us the name of anybody that was in
18 either of these APCs that you were travelling in?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let's turn our attention back to A. Is that a location where you
21 saw dead soldiers in uniform or people in uniform along with others?
22 A. I believe in A and B, in both.
23 Q. So there were soldiers in both A and B when you observed this --
24 these people dead. Is that right?
25 A. I believe so.
1 Q. Are you aware of the military facilities that were located around
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, let's turn our attention to C. Did you see dead soldiers
6 A. I cannot recall.
7 Q. Do you know the circumstances under which these people died?
8 A. I didn't go and investigate why. It was just getting out of the
9 APC while some of the people were with me going to the building and I was
10 just looking around and making sure that we were safe and I didn't go
11 close to them or investigate.
12 Q. Suffice it so say, you have no knowledge as to the circumstances
13 under which any of these people died, be it people in uniform or not in
14 uniform, do you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Let us talk about the military targets that you talked about in
17 both of your statement and direct examination.
18 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry. Your Honour, I'll offer into evidence
19 this -- this chart that is on the screen with the blue writing on it.
20 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D515.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D515 is admitted into evidence.
24 MR. KEHOE:
25 Q. Now, Colonel, let's talk a bit about the shelling on the 5th and
1 4th if we may and then first when the shelling began at 5.00 on the 4th,
2 you went down to a bunker, didn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the shelling that you observed was from the balcony from UN
5 Sector South headquarters. Isn't that right?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And you went up to that balcony on one occasion, on the 4th,
8 didn't you?
9 A. Maybe once or twice. I cannot recall for sure.
10 Q. Well, let me turn your attention to your statement. At page 3,
11 P546, third full paragraph after the carry-over paragraph, the
12 paragraph beginning: "At about 0500 ... "
13 MR. KEHOE: If we can bring that up. If we can go to the middle
14 of the page.
15 Q. Do you see that, Colonel? At one time that day Captain
16 Gilbert --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- was observing where the shells were landing, this was from the
19 top floor of the headquarters.
20 Before I ask the next question, Colonel, did captain Gilbert tell
21 you about observing and chronicling outgoing fire on the 4th? Did he
22 tell you that?
23 A. I don't remember. I just remember that he had a pen and a piece
24 of paper and I think he was recording some shellings. But I don't
25 remember him telling me outgoing.
1 Q. But he was writing it down when you were up there?
2 A. He was writing, yeah.
3 Q. Now, note "I joined him one time." See that?
4 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour, I believe it says "I joined him at
5 one time."
6 MR. KEHOE: At one time.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That is not the same.
8 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. KEHOE:
11 Q. You were up with Captain Gilbert one time for 15 minutes. Isn't
12 that right?
13 A. Probably with Captain Gilbert one time, yeah.
14 Q. Who were you with any other time?
15 A. I believe that there was one time there was a Kathy Langham might
16 have been there one time.
17 Q. Who was that?
18 A. I believe her name is Kathy Langham. She was one of the UN
19 civilian employee.
20 Q. She was up there with you?
21 A. I believe at one time, yeah.
22 Q. And what time of day was this?
23 A. I mean, it has been 13 years. I don't remember.
24 Q. Well, the rest of time you were in the bunker. Isn't that right?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You were not?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When did you get out of the bunker?
4 A. I got out of bunker about -- I was in the bunker probably about
5 an hour, hour and a half, and -- the bunk that I was in that was
6 basically a sea container and with sandbag on the side and on the top and
7 after being there, for about an hour, hour and a half I decided maybe I
8 should go to headquarters where everybody was, so I ran outside and went
9 to the headquarters to see what was happening.
10 MR. KEHOE: Well, I don't know if that means anything, Judge.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, I can tell you, for these who are not aware, the
12 testing of the civilian warning system takes place the first Monday of
13 every month at 12.00 exactly.
14 MR. KEHOE: I will set my watch by that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. Well, let us turn our attention to P547 first, and that is
18 your -- the chart put in by the Prosecution. If we can orient that.
19 Looking at point A, the Prosecution, in its summation, said you
20 observed the shelling going into point A while you were on the balcony.
21 Is that right?
22 A. I believe so.
23 MR. KEHOE: Now, let us turn to P545. Prosecution 545. Can we
24 go to the next page, please.
25 Q. Colonel, this is your first statement of November 1st, 1,
1 November 1995. You wrote this, did you not?
2 A. Yes, I.
3 Q. And you note at point A there were three rounds on the hill east
4 of Knin. What hill are you talking about?
5 And if we can, we can go back to P547. If we can flip back to
7 A. That's the one that, on a previous -- that was identified as area
8 A, on the east side of the hill and not where there was meant -- English
9 is my second language. What was meant was on the east side of the hill
10 in Knin grid, so ... that's basically area A.
11 Q. Well, the area A -- so you saw it falling on the hill. Is that
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. Okay. Let us turn your attention first to D102. If we can
15 orient that. If I may, just orient you just for your moment, Colonel,
16 the parliament building is 7 at the bottom of the page.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And we will show you a photograph in a second to orient you yet
20 Are you familiar with these various locations that are in the
21 area of the parliament building? And I'm talking about 1 through 12, and
22 just look through them, if you will. I don't think there is any need to
23 read them.
24 A. I wasn't aware of that information.
25 Q. Okay, sir. Let us turn our attention to D36-0004.
1 Now, this is the vantage point from the balcony at the UN
2 headquarters, isn't it?
3 A. No. That looked more like from the first floor than the top
5 Q. But it is from the vantage point of the UN, where UN Sector South
6 is. You see the orientation point in the middle, the marking point of
7 the RSK parliament. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I see that.
9 Q. Okay. Now you the shelling that you observed that you put as
10 point A on the hill when you noted in your statement that it was on the
11 hill the east of Knin, or the hill at the east side of Knin, would that
12 be in the area that is to -- well, you tell us. I mean, what area are
13 you talking about? Is it to the left of this line where the hill goes
15 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry, if we're going to refer to the line, can
16 we just refer to which line?
17 MR. KEHOE: The left line, the left dotted line, but I want him
18 to tell us.
19 THE WITNESS: That would be roughly left of that line.
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. Okay. So if it is left of the line it is in fact up on the hill
22 itself, isn't it?
23 A. It is it hard to say from that picture.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, whether it is up the hill depends on what
25 you take as your point of reference, it is further up or further down, if
1 you're talking about the top, also depending on where exactly the witness
2 observed what he observed. So, therefore, on the hill, not on the hill
3 is not very precise and doesn't assist greatly.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE: Yes. Let us go down to the next chart, if I may,
7 Q. Now, sir, the firing that was going on, using as again your
8 reference point down at the UN and with these other locations, it's a
9 fact, sir, when you saw shelling going into the area you designate as A,
10 you don't know what they were firing at, do you?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. And you don't know what they hit?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. So for all you know, these areas circled here on this chart,
15 1D36-0005, could have been the locations that were hit when you observed
16 fire coming in on the morning of the 4th, right?
17 A. Could have been.
18 MR. KEHOE: If I might have one moment, Your Honour.
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MR. KEHOE: If I could put up finally 1D36-000 -- 0036 excuse me.
22 Q. Now, sir, again, looking at this chart, again, at the bottom of
23 the page is the -- where the UN camp is. You gave us a grid reference at
24 the top of grid reference 970790.
25 Now is that also a location that you observed being shelled from
1 the balcony at the UN?
2 A. I believe so.
3 Q. And do you have any idea what was actually hit when that shelling
4 took place?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time I will offer into evidence
7 1D36-0004, 1D36-0005 1D36-0006.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
9 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these become Exhibit D516 through
12 D518, respectively.
13 MR. KEHOE: If we can turn our attention to D131. I'm sorry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Would it assist you to have --
15 MR. KEHOE: I apologise.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D516 through D518 are admitted into evidence.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour, I apologise for getting ahead
19 of myself there. Can I do D131?
20 Q. Now, as we bring this up, Colonel, let me reference you back to
21 your direct testimony as well your statement, you say, in my opinion, the
22 shelling of Knin was carried out -- this is on page 7, I apologise, the
23 second-to-last paragraph. Page 7 of P546.
24 You say that: "In my opinion, the shelling of Knin was carried
25 out to drive away the civilian population. The shelling was not directed
1 at any military targets."
2 Now, let's take that one by one if we can as quickly as we can.
3 I want to take a look at it this first chart that's designated and
4 encircled. The first location, sir, is A-1, the northern barracks,
5 that's what you talked about, right, as a target?
6 A. Yeah, if that is the northern barracks, yes.
7 Q. We can zoom in there if you want, but orient yourself with the UN
8 building at the bottom. Do you see that as the northern barracks?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. And the B-1 at the bottom, that's the ARSK headquarters, isn't
12 A. I believe so.
13 Q. Let's go to the next chart.
14 Now, we've added what is added for you slide by slide has a plus
15 mark in front of it. Do you see the parliament building at B-8. You're
16 familiar with that?
17 A. I believe so, yes.
18 Q. And how about B-10, the police station. Do you know that?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. Now, C-3 was an artillery position behind your camp. You know
21 about that, didn't you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So you didn't know there was an artillery position behind your
25 A. I didn't.
1 Q. Now, how about the factory, the Agroprerada, excuse me,
2 Agroprerada depot at D-2, were you aware of that near the train station?
3 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
4 Q. And of course, you know that you have E-6 which is the train
5 station management wagons tracks? Do you see that? You were aware of
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Let's turn to the next layer, talking about ARSK troop bases and
9 barracks. No, it's the next -- it was the slide back.
10 If we can go ahead one.
11 Okay. Looking at the blue box on the left-hand side, Colonel, we
12 mentioned the northern barracks is A-1. A-2 is the Senjak barracks. Are
13 you familiar with the Senjak barracks being run by the ARSK?
14 A. No, I wasn't aware of it.
15 Q. How about A-3, the southern barracks, that was next to you, you
16 were aware of that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And A-4, which was the high school, are you aware of a Serb
19 military unit being garrisoned at A-4 and that they had a mortar
20 emplacement there on the 4th of August?
21 A. I wasn't aware of that.
22 Q. Let go to A-5, which is the ARSK special police. Are you aware
23 of that location?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Let's turn to the next slide. This would be dealing with RSK
1 command and control and power. Let's talk about the lower left green
2 box. We talked previously about B-1, the ARSK HQ. Let's talk about B-2,
3 ARSK -- which is part of the defence ministry, it's known as the old
4 hospital. Were you aware that was being used by the ARSK?
5 A. No.
6 Q. B-3 again, the same item called the seniors hotel, were you aware
7 that was being used by the ARSK?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How about B -- just read it down.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be better solution if you would give the
13 witness the list of all what you consider to be military targets and to
14 ask him simple questions after the break, one of them, first of all, were
15 you aware of the presence of the facilities described there; second, if
16 you were aware of them, is there any reason why you did not consider them
17 to be potential military targets.
18 MR. KEHOE: I do that quickly, Judge, I can go to the last side
19 which has all of them.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we're still reading half in green but --
21 MR. KEHOE: We can go to the last slide, which has all of them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: All of them, yes.
23 MR. KEHOE: Let's go to -- if we can go I guess three slides
24 into -- one prior to that. That one. It is it 0396, I'm being told.
25 JUDGE ORIE: This is the full list.
1 MR. KEHOE: That's the full list.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Give that to the witness and I mean it may be clear
3 to him now what the questions are.
4 MR. KEHOE: If I can just give him a moment just to review the
5 entire list.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could also do that.
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the -- for me, the time I was there,
8 the only one I was aware of was the south barracks, the ARSK headquarters
9 downtown Knin, and the northern barracks. Everything else, I was not
10 aware of that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you did not consider any of the others as
12 to their existence or to their potential as a military target when you
13 formed your opinion about that there was no -- it wasn't where military
14 targets were.
15 THE WITNESS: I wasn't aware of the existence of those other --
16 other location0.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, we can move on.
19 Q. Just moving ahead, are you familiar with the concept, Colonel, of
20 mobile targets?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what are mobile targets, what is your understanding of that?
23 A. Well, it's -- let's say a piece of equipment, like tracked
24 artillery that one minute it is in one location, fire a couple of rounds,
25 and then redeploy to a different location. Is that what you're
1 referring to?
2 Q. And -- yes, sir. And then likewise would include soldiers on
3 foot as well, being moving through an area. Isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, let us just briefly touch on that in D124.
6 D124 is a situation report of 5 August 1995. And if we could go
7 to the bottom of that page first.
8 Now just as a reference point there, it notes at the bottom that
9 Serbs towns, Benkovac, Gracac, Vrlika, Drnis are taken by HV forces,
10 early in the morning Serbs started massive withdrawal of combat forces
11 from the general area Benkovac and Kistanje towards the general direction
12 of Knin.
13 If we could just move up two more pages. One more page, please,
14 and towards the bottom is the CanBat, Canadian Battalion AOR. We don't
15 need to read that but if you can take a look at it, Colonel, and ...
16 What CanBat reports is a significant amount of military equipment
17 from the ARSK moving towards the general direction of Knin. Do you see
18 that, sir?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And just turn over to the next page, just quickly.
21 Likewise, more equipment moving towards Knin and if you look
22 towards the top you see where it is headed towards Knin.
23 Now, Colonel, those particular pieces, do you know if they moved
24 through Knin at any time during the 4th or the 5th of August, 1995?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Well, if they did, they certainly would be movable targets that
2 were open for shelling by the HV, wouldn't they?
3 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm sorry, if he is going to ask the
4 witness what is appropriate to shell, then we would certainly like to
5 investigate that on redirect.
6 MR. KEHOE: I'm asking if it is a movable target and if it's
7 going through the Knin on the 4th or 5th, if the HV could shell it.
8 Given what the counsel asked on direct examination, I don't see anything
9 improper in that.
10 MR. RUSSO: I'm not suggesting it is improper.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is not that easy, Mr. Kehoe. You know
12 that, of course, it very much depends on where they were driving, what
13 kind of weaponry was used, et cetera. So if you would say whether --
14 apart from that, it is based on the assumption, if they were there, could
15 they have been shelled or I would prefer --
16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, that's fine.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- being attacked. I take it that moving troops in
18 itself, whatever the witness would say, if they are taking active part in
19 operations, that there's a great likelihood that they are legitimate
20 military targets.
21 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And then the difficult part starts. Yes? Who they
23 were, where they were, what other issues issue, et cetera, so I take it
24 that the witness would not disagree with what I just said, would you?
25 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't -- I would not disagree.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's why we have --
2 THE WITNESS: The interesting thing is how do you know where they
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because that's the assumption in the question,
5 and of course, you would have to establish that to answer some of the
6 follow-up questions.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Now you note the during the course of your direct examination,
10 and pardon me if I misquote this but I trust I will get the general idea,
11 that one of the reasons that you thought that this shelling was intended
12 to drive out the civilian population is because military targets weren't
13 seriously damaged by the artillery attack?
14 Is that your position?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Let us turn our attention to D389.
17 This is a document from the RSK headquarters from the 4th of
18 August, 1995, and it discusses the shelling commencing on 4 August 1995.
19 And if we can look at the fourth paragraph down Knin was attacked by
20 Livansko Polje.
21 Do you see that, sir?
22 A. I'm not sure.
23 Q. Okay. It's the middle of the page. It says Knin was attacked --
24 A. Okay, yes, I do, okay.
25 Q. Just read that with me, Knin was attacked -- and by the way, just
1 to reference you again, Colonel, this is an ARSK document. Knin was
2 attacked from the Livansko polje from different directions and by the
3 time this information was drafted between 200 and 300 rounds of different
4 calibre impacted on the town. The first strike was carried out on the
5 building of the SVK General Staff which suffered great materiel damage
6 with the fleet of vehicles almost completely deployed. Later the fire
7 was transferred on the military barracks, 1300, Kaplara, the Tvik
8 factory, railway intersection, residential buildings and the area beneath
9 the Knin fortress, the item that we looked at previously in D102.
10 Were you aware, sir, that the initial barrage of fire had in fact
11 damaged these particular locations, the SVK General Staff the vehicles,
12 military barracks, Tvik factory, were you aware of that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Let me, can if I will, and Your Honour, if I can just go into
15 private session, briefly.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. KEHOE: If can I take a break right now -- I will do either
18 one, Judge, whatever you want to do.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that would be the better solution,
20 because I take it that have you to ask a couple of questions.
21 MR. KEHOE: I have to ask a couple of questions about
22 testimony --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and since it is 12.30, we'd prefer to have a
24 break first.
25 We will have a break and we will resume at ten minutes to 1.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we briefly go into private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 5937 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
24 MR. KEHOE:
25 Q. This is a provisional assessment done by the UNMOs and if we look
1 down at paragraph 2 it notes: "In general the shelling was concentrated
2 against military objectives. The damages caused by shelling to civilian
3 establishments is concentrated to the close vicinity of military
4 objectives. Only few, three to five, impacts is observed in other urban
6 Were you aware of this assessment, Colonel?
7 A. No, I wasn't.
8 Q. You noted during the course of your testimony -- excuse me. And
9 this would be, I should not your testimony, I should say your statement,
10 P546, page 6, bottom of the page, starting with the paragraph: "I did
11 not notice."
12 Just the last paragraph, yeah, that's it.
13 "Brigadier-general Forand tasked CIVPOL with preparing a report
14 on the damage that had been caused throughout Sector South."
15 Do you see that, Colonel?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Did you see the results of that report?
18 A. No, I never did.
19 Q. Were you ever informed that the results of that report were
20 consistent with the provisional assessment?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, you also noted for us during the course of your testimony
23 that the shelling constituted deliberate harassment not only on the 4th
24 but that the 5th was -- shelling on the 5th was unnecessary. Do you
25 recall saying that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now the fighting still continued between the RSK and the HV
3 through the evening of the 4th, into the 5th, didn't it?
4 A. I cannot say if it did or did not. I was inside the compound so
5 I mean we could hear artillery. I don't remember if we did hear small
6 arms or not, but --
7 Q. Let me show you D106. And this is an interview with General
8 Mrksic and Belgrade Radio on 4 August 1995 at 2130 hours. The fourth
9 delineation down with General Mrksic: "No. We are maintaining contact,
10 our forces withdrew to the positions for the direct defence of Knin. The
11 other range units are still successfully holding their positions."
12 If we can move further down that page.
13 Seven lines from the bottom, "if the VRS army of the Republika
14 Srpska succeeds in putting pressure on the forces attacking in the
15 direction Grahovo-Knin, we shall then stabilize the defense and switch on
16 the counterattack."
17 Let me show you one last item. Actually, I can read it. It's on
18 the video of General Leslie. This would be from D123. There is no need
19 to listen to the video but he notes: "At 2340 hours on the 4th, taking
20 Knin, no, we have no reports of Croatians being in direct fire range of
21 Knin and there are still a lot of Serbs in Knin and in the surrounding
23 So, Colonel, was it your understanding that through the evening
24 of the 4th and going on the 5th there continued to be fighting between
25 the RSK and the HV?
1 A. I really don't know. You got to understand that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
3 Please continue.
4 THE WITNESS: You have to understand that I didn't go too often
5 in the command centre of HQ Sector South. I was very busy, you know,
6 doing engineer-related work inside the camp. So if reports were coming
7 in from various sources, I wasn't aware of them.
8 MR. KEHOE:
9 Q. Well, on the 5th -- I'm sorry. On the 5th, Colonel, did you know
10 or did you observe RSK military returning from the front lines through
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. So it would be fair to say, Colonel, that on the 5th you were
14 unaware of the military situation that was ongoing between the HV and the
15 ARSK. Isn't that right?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Now, Colonel, you mentioned going through the town of Knin
18 9th, I believe, which is where you -- and I'm talking about page 5,
19 fourth full paragraph down, where you viewed the devastation everywhere
20 in Knin town.
21 A. Mm-hm.
22 Q. And that, again, is in P546.
23 Let me just refer to you a couple of matters, and first D29.
24 Second paragraph. This is a cable from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan.
25 Paragraph 2: "My overall impression of the town in Knin is that it
1 suffered considerable damage from artillery fire which is evident in the
2 streets where I observed many shops with broken window, cars damaged and
3 off the road, artillery shell holes in the road. However, the damage to
4 the town's structures, while noticeable, was less than I anticipated.
5 Large numbers of homes and buildings were left untouched by the
7 If I may, a witness, Mr. Flynn, a Prosecution witness who was a
8 HRAT representative. This is on page 1156, testimony before this Court
9 on 10 April 2008
10 people and also toured Knin, as you told us yesterday?
11 "Answer: Yes."
12 "Question: His overall impression of the town of Knin
13 suffered considerable damage from artillery fire," and he gives his
14 observations. "However, the damage to the town structures, while
15 noticeable, was less than I anticipated."
16 "Would that accord -- talking to Mr. Flynn, would that accord
17 with your observations of Knin?"
19 Question, he goes on to say, "Large numbers of homes and
20 buildings were left untouched by the fighting. Would that accord with
21 your observations?"
22 "Answer: Yes."
23 Ambassador Galbraith, page 5 --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
25 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry.
1 Q. Ambassador Galbraith at 24 June 2008, page 5044, line 19: "In
2 any event so we had -- we had people there I think on the 7th and 9th of
3 August looking at what had happened in Knin."
4 The 9th of August is was when you went down there, right, sir?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. "Looking at what had happened, and all of them reported to me
7 that the damage from the shelling was not extensive, in fact that things
8 were largely undamaged and that windows were broken, that sort of thing
9 had happened and there was no -- there was no kind of systematic effort
10 to destroy Knin."
11 Lastly, if we can turn our attention to D66, and after we go
12 through these, I'll ask you a question, Colonel.
13 Going to the bottom of that page, this is a US cable dated 14
14 August 1995, notes at downtown Knin: "Although Knin was reportedly
15 heavily shelled in the early hours of the hostilities few downtown areas
16 and residential buildings showed signs of shell damage."
17 As you sit here, Colonel, is it that you disagree with all these
18 other individuals who made these observations during the same time-frame
19 when you were in Knin after the end of Operation Storm?
20 A. I do not disagree. What I would like to say is that I never
21 really counted all the building and it's just like if somebody is to
22 assess the stress level on an individual, we will be looking at the
23 stress at the different level, you know, so certain situation, you might
24 find very stressful and I might not, or the other way around. I don't
25 know what they use as a reference. But for me, I stand by my statement.
1 Q. Colonel, had you ever been in combat before prior to this?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let us change our focus for one moment to talking about the
4 looting that you talked about in your statement. And that would again be
5 on page 5.
6 Colonel, you mentioned looting and the clothing being thrown out.
7 Did you personally see a looting?
8 A. No, I did not.
9 Q. Do you know whether or not the law enforcement or soldiers that
10 were searching these places were looking for weapons, and, if so, did
11 they find any?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. So you don't know the circumstances of the looting that you
14 talked about in your statement?
15 A. No. Well, for me in my statement I was referring to that people
16 had been going through various buildings or most of the building,
17 clothing, furniture had been thrown out of the window and not knowing
18 what was there prior, I just assumed that it was looting had taken place.
19 Q. You assumed that, but you didn't know if it was a search for
20 weapons or anything else?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And going through a city and any type of fighting in the built-up
23 area, you would expect soldiers to search apartments looking for weapons,
24 wouldn't you?
25 A. I assume so.
1 Q. Now, the last topic we had to talk about is the topic that you
2 referred to with regard to the soldier that you examined up -- by one of
3 the observation posts and you mention it on page 5. This is on the
4 12th of August, 1995.
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Now, mentioned to us on direct examination that have you no
7 forensic background; is that right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And what you observed was a RSK soldier lying flat on the ground
10 with a gunshot wound to his sternum; is that right?
11 A. Correct, yes.
12 Q. Not to his head to his sternum?
13 A. I believe it was the sternum, yes.
14 Q. Do you know, sir, that during the course of any combat that was
15 going on, if individuals took that body from one location and laid it out
16 so it could be found and be buried?
17 A. No, I do not know.
18 Q. So that is equally plausible as to any explanation or any
19 hypothesis you might come up with; isn't that right?
20 A. That's correct.
21 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I have no further questions of this
23 Q. Colonel, thank you very much.
24 MR. KEHOE: It went much more quickly than I thought, Judge.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was noticed by the interpreters as well.
1 MR. KEHOE: I can ask a few more questions, Judge. That was a
3 JUDGE ORIE: I always admire them to be able to follow.
4 Then Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to cross-examine
5 Mr. Bellerose.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, I am. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bellerose, you will now be cross-examined by
8 Mr. Kuzmanovic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Could the registrar please pull up D513. The
11 last four digits of the page number are 4620; that's the diary.
12 Q. Sir, the diary that you produced here that we received a copy of
13 goes through Sunday, July 30, or actually Monday, July 31. Did you have
14 any other entries beyond Monday, July 31?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. You stopped keeping the diary after the end of July?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. If you look at the document up on the screen, point number 4
19 under Saturday, July 29 -- 29 July, it says: "Murray Dawes is trying to
20 get Jordana, his interpreter/secretary, out"?
21 What did you mean by that entry?
22 A. I believe that I meant that he was trying to get her out of Knin.
23 Q. This was on the 29th of July?
24 A. It would appear so.
25 Q. Did he relate to you why he was trying to get her out of Knin on
1 July 29th?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Did he tell you that?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. Now, were the interpreters that you hired of Serb ethnicity at
6 the camp?
7 A. I believe they were.
8 Q. I'd like to refer you to your statement, the November 1999
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could pull that up, please. And if we go
11 to page 6, the top of page 6.
12 Q. And you have that in front of you, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Just for your own reference if you go to the page before, at the
15 very bottom it says on 12 August 1995
16 that was close to either CanBat, et cetera. Then the next page -- I'm
17 assuming that what you are talking about on the next page where you say:
18 "Once we were allowed to leave the UN camp," that all happened after
19 August 12th of 1995; correct?
20 A. No. That would have been on the 9th.
21 Q. When did you get the order from General Forand to start
22 dismantling the observation posts, what date?
23 A. I'm not quite sure exactly, but that would have been the week
24 following the offensive.
25 Q. So around the 12th?
1 A. Probably, yeah.
2 Q. So from August 12th on, you were -- your job was to start
3 dismantling all of your observation posts?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. That meaning the UN observation posts?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Now, how many of these observation posts were there, roughly?
8 A. About 120 that I recall. That's in the four sector -- I mean
9 four section.
10 Q. That was -- what area are you talking about?
11 A. The Kenyan area sector of operation, the Canadians, the
12 Jordanian, and the Czech.
13 Q. So it was in Sector South and partly in Sector North?
14 A. No, just Sector South.
15 Q. Where was the Czech observation post located?
16 A. In the northern part of Sector South.
17 Q. And do you know where exactly?
18 A. If I had a map showing the border between Sector North and
19 Sector South, I could show you.
20 Q. Okay. Let's refer you then, I guess back to your statement here,
21 on page 6. You said that you -- you had orders to dismantle all your
22 observation posts. Did you have a time-frame within which you had to
23 accomplish that?
24 A. No, we didn't.
25 Q. Do you remember where you -- where you started?
1 A. Well, there was concurrent activity. Every battalion, like the
2 Kenyans and the Canadian and the Jordanian and the Czech, were starting
3 dismantling at the same time.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Just give me a moment here, Your Honour. I'm
5 trying to find a map.
6 Call up P307, please. And if we could enlarge that, please. If
7 we could scroll down a little bit please. Right, that's good.
8 Q. Sir, you see where Knin is circled there on this particular map?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Could you describe for me -- if could you use a pointer just for
11 demonstrative purpose, where the observation posts in general were
12 located? Not all 120 obviously, but general locations of where the
13 observation posts were?
14 A. You don't have a map that shows the former borders between the
15 Krajinas and Croatia
16 Q. We probably do, but if you -- for sake of simplicity if you could
17 just show us, for example, I guess, can you tell me where is JorBat
18 located on this map?
19 A. I remember the Kenyan in this sector.
20 Q. And you have marked a half circle in blue?
21 A. Yeah, that is K for Kenyan. Roughly, we had the Canadian. I
22 believe JorBat were along the mountain. And further up we had the --
23 Q. You can't scroll up anymore now that you have drawn on it but
24 further north would be the Czechs?
25 A. Would be the Czech, yeah.
1 Q. Can you tell me -- mark with that exactly where the JorBat
2 location was there?
3 A. There's not enough detail nor I do remember exactly.
4 Q. Do you know what city it was located in? If you don't know, you
5 can tell me you don't know.
6 A. No, I don't know.
7 Q. Now, back to your statement --
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'd like to tender that document,
10 MR. RUSSO: No objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D519.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D519 is admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. In your statement of 1999 --
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go back to that, Mr. Registrar, on
18 page 6. Just that first paragraph.
19 Q. Toward the middle of that paragraph you talk about restriction of
20 movement in the sector and you state: "I saw Croatian special police at
21 the entrance to many villages. They would often refuse us entry to these
23 First of all, from whom did you get that information? What
24 factual basis do have you to state that they were Croatian special
1 A. I cannot remember exactly how I was told that those people in --
2 that type of uniform were special police, but for me the normal police
3 were wearing dark blue and a force cap and usually just have a side-arm
4 and driving the green and white vehicle.
5 The soldiers were usually wearing fatigue uniform with camouflage
6 pattern and those persons stopping us, I call them the special police,
7 were wearing a one colour uniform, either very dark grey or black and had
8 load bearing vests and looked a lot more professional than normal police.
9 Q. I'd specifically asked you -- thank you for that answer, but I'd
10 specifically asked you what factual basis did you have to say in your
11 statement that they were Croatian special police?
12 A. Other than the uniform they were wearing and assuming that based
13 on the uniform they were wearing.
14 Q. Can you tell what kind of -- you said that they had a cap, a
15 certain kind of cap. What kind of cap did they have?
16 A. No, the normal police were wearing -- I call that a force cap.
17 Q. Like a normal street cop would have?
18 A. Like a normal street cop would have. But those that I call the
19 special police didn't wear that.
20 Q. Did have any kind of thing -- hat or cap on their head?
21 A. It has been 18 years I don't remember.
22 Q. What kind of weapons did they have?
23 A. I cannot remember.
24 Q. I noticed that in the statement that gave in 1999 you did not
25 mention anything about the colour of the uniforms or what kind of vests
1 that they had. Yet we have a supplemental statement here from you that
2 was given on 30th June that discusses in some detail what kind of
3 uniforms these gentlemen were wearing.
4 Can you describe why all of a sudden on June 30th of 1998 you
5 recall that kind of detail?
6 A. Probably the question wasn't asked in 1999 how I can make the
7 difference between the two.
8 Q. You also didn't mention specifically any towns or villages that
9 you claim the special police refused entry to you in back 1999; yet
10 specifically in your supplemental statement given on June 30th, 1998
11 recall one of those times happening in the area of Gracac. What has
12 given you the clarity to now remember Gracac?
13 A. Just that I recall that area, because going into the south, in
14 the Kenyans' sector of operation, I don't recall ever being stopped in
15 that area. But going towards the north I was.
16 Q. So you assumed it was Gracac or you think it was Gracac, or is it
17 a guess?
18 A. I'm pretty sure that was near Gracac.
19 Q. Can you tell me what the dates were?
20 A. No, I can't.
21 Q. Can you tell me how many times you were -- you claim you were
22 refused entry into villages?
23 A. I cannot be specific. Maybe, two, three times.
24 Q. How many people were at these spots in which you claim you were
25 prevented from entering villages?
1 A. I can't remember exactly.
2 Q. How many people were with you on these trips?
3 A. Probably me and a Slovak driver.
4 Q. Do you know his name?
5 A. No. And I had different driver every day.
6 Q. So it was you and a driver and the drivers you can't remember who
7 they are?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. What kind of vehicle did you have?
10 A. I had a Toyota
11 Q. What colour?
12 A. White.
13 Q. Tell me, if you can, did you ever have any conversations with
14 those people at these spots where you said that you were prevented from
16 A. Yeah. I cannot remember exactly what was said, but they wouldn't
17 let me in.
18 Q. What did you say, what did you tell them?
19 A. I probably would have told them that I was a UN and I was going
20 to one of the UN observation posts.
21 Q. And the reply?
22 A. I cannot remember.
23 Q. Would they speak English to you?
24 A. Some did. Very limited.
25 Q. When you were on your way to observation posts, how did you get
1 there? Were you using the main roads?
2 A. Some were main roads; some were tracks that had been build by the
3 UN to --
4 Q. To get to those spots?
5 A. To get to the those spots.
6 Q. Were those dirt roads, then?
7 A. Some were.
8 Q. So just so I'm straight, you can't give me a date or dates when
9 you were stopped, correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And you can't give me the locations other than the general area
12 of Gracac of places that you were stopped. Correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And you can't give me the name of anybody you were with when you
15 were stopped. Correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Just so I'm clear, can you give me a date of when you went --
18 when you were stopped in and around the area of Gracac? And I'm sorry if
19 I asked that already.
20 A. No, I cannot.
21 Q. Can you tell of the kind of insignia that any of these people who
22 stopped you wore?
23 A. I cannot remember.
24 Q. Did they have insignia?
25 A. I cannot remember.
1 Q. And, again, you cannot tell me what factual basis you came to
2 conclude that these people who stopped you were actually Croatian special
3 police. Correct?
4 A. I was assuming by their uniform.
5 Q. Do you know how the special police was organised or structured?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know how the military police was organised or structured?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know how the Croatian military was organised or
11 A. No.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I don't have any more questions. Thank you,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
15 Mr. Cayley.
16 MR. CAYLEY: Nothing arises. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing arises.
18 Mr. Russo, any need re-examine the witness.
19 MR. RUSSO: No, Your Honour.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE KINIS: Referring back to your statement, P546, page 3,
24 last paragraph, you mentioned that "I was unable to leave Sector South
25 immediately to carry out these tasks. This was because Serbs had put a
1 number of surface mines on the road was directly outside of the camp
2 gates and leading up to the main road."
3 Could you please clarify this issue, was it -- when it occurs?
4 A. That was on the 4th, after -- well, now General Leslie asked me
5 to go and deliver the medical supply. We got the APC organised, the
6 medical loaded and when we got at the gate there was Serb soldiers
7 stopping us from leaving and they also had a mine on the surface of the
8 road, so, you know, preventing us from leaving with our vehicle.
9 JUDGE KINIS: But did they allow to you they mine this area or
10 they prohibit to do it?
11 A. Well, they didn't have to say that they mined the area. We could
12 see that the mine were on the road, that the mine were, let's say, less
13 than five metres from the main gate. And they weren't buried; they were
14 right on the surface of ...
15 JUDGE ORIE: Since I have no further questions for you,
16 Mr. Bellerose, this concludes your testimony, unless the question by
17 Judge Kinis has triggered any need to put further questions to the
19 Mr. Bellerose, I would like to thank you very much for coming a
20 long way to The Hague
21 surprised at the time that you were never called to testify. Well, that
22 has now changed.
23 Mr. Bellerose, I wish you a safe trip home again and thank you
24 for answering all the questions asked by the parties and by the Bench.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. And sorry for a bit of
1 confusion at the beginning. I was a bit nervous.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I hope that's over now.
3 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Bellerose out of the
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We asked for only two minutes to read a decision and
7 I got even ten.
8 The Chamber still owes the parties the reasons for granting
9 trial-related protective measures for Witness 3.
10 On the 4 April 2008
11 trial-related protective measures of pseudonym and face distortion for
12 Witness 3. On the 16th April 2008, the Gotovina Defence filed a
13 response, in which it did not oppose the request but disagreed with the
14 Prosecution's arguments in support of the motion.
15 The following day, the Markac Defence filed a joinder to that
16 response. And on the 21 April 2008
17 request with reasons to follow. This decision can be found at transcript
18 page 1862.
19 After the request was granted, the Chamber was informed in
20 private session that information about the anticipated evidence of the
21 witness had entered the public domain. The Chamber consequently decided
22 to hear the testimony of the witness in private session. This decision
23 can be found at transcript page 1870.
24 As the Chamber held in its reasons for its first protective
25 measures decision in this case at transcript page 2610, the mere
1 expression of fear by a person is not sufficient for protective measures
2 to be granted. The party seeking protective measures for a witness must
3 demonstrate an objectively grounded risk to the security or welfare of
4 the witness or the witness's family, should it become known that the
5 witness has given evidence before the Tribunal.
6 Witness 3, a Croatian Serb, travels regularly to Croatia
7 she owns property. She has expressed fears of encountering certain
8 persons whom she met during the course of events pleaded in the
9 indictment. After careful consideration, the Chamber found that the
10 content of her anticipated testimony could antagonise those persons. The
11 witness has been approached and questioned by journalists, who published
12 stories on her connection with the indictment. This further fueled her
14 For these reasons, the Chamber is satisfied that the Prosecution
15 has demonstrated an objectively grounded risk to the security of the
16 witness should it become known that she has given evidence before the
18 The Chamber considered the information about the anticipated
19 evidence of the witness that had fallen into the public domain and found
20 that the only effective way to protect her identity was to hear her
21 testimony in private session.
22 And this concludes the Chamber's reasons for its decision to
23 grant protective measures for Witness 3.
24 There's not sufficient time to call another witness.
25 Nevertheless, the Chamber would briefly explore what will happen in the
1 days to come. We have a witness scheduled for tomorrow, which will not
2 take much time in chief, as far as I'm informed.
3 Mr. Hedaraly, is that --
4 MR. HEDARALY: That's correct, Your Honour. It should take 45
5 minutes or an hour, at the most.
6 JUDGE ORIE: At most.
7 Any idea on how much cross-examination would take of the next
8 witness to appear?
9 MR. MISETIC: I would anticipate right now, Your Honour, two to
10 three hours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Two to three hours.
12 Other Defence teams.
13 MR. CAYLEY: As things stand, Your Honour, we don't have any
14 questions for this witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic.
16 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, that depends on cross-examination of
17 Mr. Misetic, but I don't believe we will take more than 30 minutes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that -- now I get three messages at the
19 same time, so if you'd just give me one second.
20 Can we move into private session for a while.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 5960-5963 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Registrar. As I said before,
22 we'll resume tomorrow, the 8th of July, 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m., to be
25 reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of July, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.