1 Thursday, 10 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 I first have to correct something for the record. When the
13 Chamber decided to admit the two statements, that is one statement and
14 the video-recorded interview, I had forgotten to add to that that the
15 video is admitted as well, strictly not under 92 ter because 92 ter
16 doesn't talk about videos, but it is, of course, so closely related to
17 the -- to the transcript of the interview that it is admitted under the
18 same exhibit number, which, therefore, comprises both video and
19 transcript of the interview.
20 Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to proceed?
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so.
23 And I would like to remind you, Witness, Mr. Janic, that you are
24 still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of
25 your testimony. That is that you will speak the truth, whole truth and
1 nothing but the truth.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I just wish to clarify, can
4 I -- may I seek an extension of time for examination. I seek Court's
5 indulgence. I had made a mistake in terms of estimating time and I would
6 be grateful if I could be granted an extension of time, at least during
7 the first session. I will try my best to finish within an hour --
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you would try to finish within an hour. If it
9 would be a little bit more than that, the Chamber would not immediately
10 stop you.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Mr. Registrar, can I call document 5222, please, 5222.
14 WITNESS: ZDRAVKO JANIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]
17 Q. Now, Mr. Janic, can you explain -- you can see the document, it
18 is already up on the screen. This is an order issued by Mr. Markac dated
19 6 December 1999
20 written off.
21 Can you explain to us when weapons are written off, what happens
22 to them? Are they destroyed or are they kept in some place?
23 A. I can explain. Since at the moment I am the commander of a
24 Special Unit in the MUP and I operate in the same manner, which is
25 whenever a weapon is broken or is there is a suspicion that it's broken
1 or if something turns up during regular annual checkups, there are two
2 regular procedures as follows.
3 The broken weapons, malfunctioning weapons are being repaired, if
4 possible, and there is a commission in the MUP which deals with the
5 writing off of these kind of weapons, and these are destroyed. These are
6 not kept in storage. So that same procedure was applied then and it is
7 still applied. So the weapons that is reparable is repaired. For
8 instance, if it has a rusty or broken barrel this weapon is unusable and
9 is written off, once a sufficient quantity is collected and it has to be
10 done under the surveillance of a commission.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber doesn't have an English version of
12 this document on its screen. Is there any explanation for that? So my
13 B/C/S is still not good enough to ...
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Well, Mr. President, I was under the
15 impression that there was an English copy uploaded to e-court. In fact,
16 I looked at it last night.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, there is currently no English
18 translation in the e-court system.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a hard copy somewhere nearby?
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add something. All other
22 services with the Ministry of Interior write off malfunctioning weapons.
23 This does not apply only to the special police. This applies to the
24 crime police and every other departments in the MUP. They carry out
25 technical inspections, repairs, and the writing off of unusable weapons,
1 and we are now part of that system, and we were part of that system
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, we can see the English
4 translation on e-court on our system here.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's not spend too much time on --
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this document into
8 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections.
9 No objections. Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P578.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my understanding, Ms. Mahindaratne, this is
12 to -- to give, to demonstrate how it works, the system, is that how?
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I have last night
14 tendered other related documents and we will make the required submission
15 later on to Trial Chamber.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
17 Then, Mr. Registrar, you have said it was 578.
18 P578 is admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number 770,
22 Q. Now, Mr. Janic, permit me to take you to paragraph 65 of your
23 statement, the 2004 statement.
24 Now n paragraph 65, you say that you were in charge of a search
25 operation that was in the area of Promina mountain on 26th August, 1995
1 And you described that operation. And then you say that the Lucko unit
2 was also involved in that operation and Mr. Celic was in command of that
3 operation, too, on the 26th. And you say: "I remember that almost as
4 the operation began I was informed by a member of the Lucko unit that
5 they had been in conflict with two enemy soldiers and that they had
6 opened fire. I could hear explosions and shots fired."
7 And at paragraph 66 you say: "After receiving this information I
8 could see that something in a nearby village was on fire. I was also
9 informed that the hand rocket launchers were used and as this village was
10 near the railroad that the freedom train with President Tudjman and
11 various diplomats was expected to travel and I contacted Mladen Markac
12 who was in Knin at the time. I asked him to come and assist the
13 situation himself. He arrived at the finish of the operation and I told
14 him that there had been a conflict and that the two terrorists had got
15 away. He asked how the houses -- "
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker slow down.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry.
18 "He asked how the houses caught fire and was not pleased that it
19 had happened. He said that there would be an investigation into the
20 burning of the houses. He was told by the Lucko unit that it was the use
21 of the rocket launcher that caused the fire in the houses."
22 Q. Now, Mr. Janic, when you received that information from Mr. Celic
23 that there was an incident, did you go into this village where the houses
24 were on fire?
25 A. Not immediately. I only went later.
1 Q. And was that the Ramljane village. Perhaps I mispronounced that
2 name. You know the village I'm referring to?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And when you visited later on how many houses had been burned?
5 What did you observe?
6 A. A few farming buildings were burned and perhaps one house. I
7 didn't pass through the entire village. I just went as far as the entry
8 to the village.
9 Q. And you said immediately when you received the information you
10 called on Mr. Markac and Mr. Markac arrived there. Now, did Mr. Markac
11 go to Ramljane village? You say that he was annoyed by the houses on
12 fire. Did he go to the village and see the houses on fire? Or, I'm
13 sorry, you said farm -- a few farming buildings and a house.
14 A. Yes. Mr. Markac came quite a bit later, so he didn't go into the
15 village. All the information he had had about what happened there was
16 received from me.
17 I must say that I have made a striking mistake here. His driver
18 told me that he was in Gracac but he was rather --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters will kindly ask the speaker to
20 slow down, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You really have to speak at a more moderate speed
22 because the interpreters cannot follow you.
23 If you would restart. You said Mr. Markac came quite a bit later
24 so he didn't go into the village and all the information he had about
25 what happened there was received from me. And then you said something
1 about a mistake. Could you please resume there.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that Mr. Markac was in
3 Knin at the time. However he was in Gracac and that is why he was late,
4 and couldn't make it in time. He only arrived after the action of that
5 day was completed. The meeting that I convened at the end of the action
6 with the people who took part in it and given that this armed clash had
7 taken place, I felt the need, as the commander of the action, and since
8 the train of freedom was due to arrive and this is the area very close to
9 the railway track, I want the general to see for himself what it was all
10 about because there was no doubt there was a conflict, a fighting, and
11 that the burning was undoubtedly caused by the use of the hand-held
12 rocket launchers. Therefore I had no doubts about the reports received
13 from the commanders.
14 However due to the delicate situation in the area I wanted him to
15 become convinced about what I myself had become convinced. When I said
16 that the general was not satisfied, of course he was not satisfied
17 because this could have caused certain problems while the train of
18 freedom were to pass through.
19 At this meeting with the people who had taken part in the action,
20 he expressed his dissatisfaction and said that he would conduct certain
21 inquiries an investigations in order to establish whether actually what
22 happened corresponds to what had been said and described.
23 Later on, before departure, or before we went other own separate
24 ways the general trusted me with verifying all this information and to
25 interview the commander of the ATJ Lucko and other commanders in order to
1 verify whether the reports were true.
2 After these interviews, I established that this is exactly what
3 had happened.
4 Q. Mr. Janic, if I could just -- it's been a while and let me, if I
5 could, just take you to your interview notes. And that's the third
6 section of P553, and I'm referring to transcripts 5309, page 43.
7 And you say, you refer to the incident and I don't want to waste
8 time reading all that. You say around line -- in the middle of -- around
9 line 14: "And as I knew that General Markac was in the area at the time,
10 just to make sure that there would be no problems because of the freedom
11 train, I did not doubt in -- at any moment that the men had abused their
12 power or abused the force or anything like that. I just called General
13 Markac who was in the area and I knew that he could be there in some 20
14 minutes' time to go together and see what had happened just to make sure
15 that there would be no problem for the freedom train the next day. And
16 as my superior was in the area at the time, General Markac, I thought it
17 would be prudent to call him."
18 Then the question is asked: "Do you know where Mr. Markac was in
19 the area at that particular time?"
20 "No I do not know and I believe Mr. Markac subsequently came to
21 the scene or to the area. Yes, of course, after I called him to come."
22 Then you go on to say: I think the reason why he was in the area
23 there was like a little stage set up where Tudjman took pictures with all
24 the generals. You know he came out of the train. He went there.
25 So Mr. Janic, I'm just trying to, perhaps if you have forgotten
1 since it is a while, you indicated that at the time you heard Mr. Markac
2 was there Zagreb from his driver. You said it in 2004 and now in 2005
3 that Mr. Markac was in the area and you called on him and when he came,
4 you knew he could come within 20 minutes.
5 Which of it is correct?
6 A. You didn't understand me. I did not say now that he was Zagreb,
7 but, rather that he was in Gracac. I had thought at the time that he was
8 in Knin, and in that case he couldn't have made in 20 minutes. His
9 driver told me that he been in Gracac. Therefore, he was not in Zagreb
10 but in Gracac. This is a little bit wider area, but he was not in Knin;
11 he was in Gracac.
12 Q. I'm sorry, I made the mistake by saying Zagreb instead of Gracac.
13 A. The fact is that the freedom train and its main station was in
14 Knin and all the generals, after the victorious operation received
15 certain honours from the president, and all the lower-ranking officers
16 who were directing the operation were there for the celebration. That
17 was the reason for the arrival of all the generals involved in
18 Operation Storm, to take part in the celebration.
19 Q. Mr. Janic, you go on to say at page 46 that -- you were asked the
20 question: "Were you present when Mr. Markac addressed the members of the
21 Lucko unit?"
23 So which member did Mr. Markac address in the Lucko unit? Was it
24 the commander, Mr. Celic, who was a -- commanding the operation or any
25 particular special instructor or any particular member? And --
1 A. It was a small unit, numbering between 30 and 35 men and he
2 addressed all of them. But other members of other units were there as
3 well. It was an area where the vehicles were, and all the people who had
4 been involved in the action were there.
5 Q. Now, in paragraph 50 you were asked this question: "Do you
6 recall seeing Mr. Markac having a, like, almost face-to-face argument
7 with Mr. Drljo?"
8 Your response is: "I mean, I did, I did hear, you know, I can't
9 say what was said between them. I mean, I could hear Drljo mumbling
10 something but I was not close enough to hear what was said between them."
11 And you're smiling, Mr. Janic, when I'm reading that. Did you
12 recall that incident?
13 A. I remember in the same way as I described it in 2005. I saw them
14 exchanging something, but I couldn't catch their words.
15 Q. Now, was it a hostile exchange? Did it seem to you that the
16 reason Mr. Markac was addressing Mr. Drljo in that fashion was because of
17 the incident of the -- the buildings catching fire in Ramljane?
18 A. I cannot give you an answer because I didn't hear what they were
19 talking about.
20 Q. Do you know, Mr. Janic, any time after this incident, if
21 Mr. Drljo or any member of the Lucko unit were investigated about that
22 incident or if they -- if any disciplinary measures were meted out
23 against any member of the Lucko unit?
24 A. Look, everything that happened on the 26th, I, as a commander,
25 after conducting talks with platoon commanders and unit commanders
1 established that there was no overstepping of authority and I did not
2 treat it as any kind of incident. Therefore, there was no reason for
3 imposing or launching any disciplinary proceedings.
4 Q. Was a report submitted to you by Mr. Celic in relation to this
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you -- when you visited the archives, Mr. Janic, did you see
8 Mr. Celic's report on -- of the 26th?
9 A. I think I did. I think I did. It was a written report,
10 identical to an oral report, and based on his written report I compiled
11 my own report, which was sent to the staff in Gracac as was the normal
12 procedure, and that would be it.
13 Q. Now you say you sent your report to the staff in Gracac, as was
14 the normal procedure. At paragraph 67 of your 2004 statement, Mr. Janic,
15 if I could take you to it, that's P522. You say that you could not find
16 your report on that operation when you checked the archives or any other
17 report apart from one that General Markac submitted to the Main Staff.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call up document number
19 1856, please.
20 I'm sorry, Mr. President, I could not tender the previous
21 document into evidence, which was 770, but I will get to that after -- I
22 don't want to create confusion.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
1 Q. Mr. Janic, is this the document that you saw in the archives
2 regarding this operation? This is Mr. Markac's report.
3 A. I think so. Could you please pull it up a little so I can see
4 the bottom of the page. Or perhaps I can move it myself, but I'm just
5 not quite sure how.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: If we could go to the page 2, please.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, can you move to page 2, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the portion in relation to
9 the Lucko ATJ, there was an armed clash that erupted and that is
10 identical to my report, the report that I submitted.
11 I see nothing about this that is questionable. This was a
12 perfectly regular thing.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I move to tender this document
14 into evidence.
15 MR. MIKULICIC: No objection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There is no objection.
17 Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P579.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P579 is admitted into evidence.
20 Apart from the previous document not being tendered or not being
21 tendered yet, the relevance is not entirely clear to me at this moment.
22 If you could please revisit that at a later stage.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will call this up right now, Mr. President,
24 while we're on this topic.
25 Mr. Registrar, can I call back up document number 770.
1 Q. Mr. Janic, this is information sent by Mr. Markac to -- it says
2 Split Military District and Knin forward command post, regarding
3 activities which is to be carried out on 26th August 1995.
4 Now, does this refer to the operation which was -- which we just
5 spoke about, that is the operation in -- near the Promina mountains.
6 That refers to the Ramljane village which we just discussed about.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And can you explain, do you know what the reference to the Knin
9 IZM is?
10 A. I'm sorry, I don't think I can help with you that.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I just move this document
12 into evidence, please.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: No objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number P580, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. P580 is admitted into
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
19 Q. Mr. Janic, just one question. Before every operation, was there
20 an exchange of information such as this between the special police and
21 the relevant HV commands in the area and any other authorities? Are you
22 able to offer an answer to that?
23 A. Yes, by all means.
24 We were the special police. We always planned our searches and
25 our actions based on intelligence, based on intelligence gathered by the
1 regular police, the districts, the district areas, the recruitment areas
2 based on their requests based on any information that was available to
3 them. It was important to go out, crush any groups of enemy soldiers.
4 We needed to know where minefields were or any heavy weaponry that was
5 left behind. We would then use this information and this information was
6 pooled by internal control in the special police. They did intelligence
7 analysis and they did security assessments. It was based on those
8 security assessments by internal control that we planned our activities.
9 So that is how the system worked. There was nothing random about
10 any of our actions.
11 We used those serious and thorough security assessments, we used
12 all the intelligence that was available to us on certain security aspects
13 that we covered all these areas and launched our actions.
14 Q. Thank you for that.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number
16 1050, please. And this is actually, Mr. President, a document I have
17 submitted through the bar table motion, but it is on the face of it a
18 little difficult to understand so I just require an explanation from the
20 Q. Mr. Janic, can you just identify, I merely want you to identify
21 if -- or confirm if in fact this is a report on the mop-up operation of
22 26th August 1995
23 the Krapina, and I beg your pardon for the mispronunciation, Zagorje
24 Z-a-g-o-r-j-e, is that correct? Because we are unable to identify that
25 on the face of this document, but you probably will be able to do that.
1 A. Could you please allow me to look at the bottom, or the end of
2 this report, rather.
3 Yes. That would be that.
4 Q. That is one of the units that participated on 26th operation in
5 the Promina mountain area?
6 A. That's right.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to tender this document
8 into evidence, and just for record keeping to indicate that this document
9 has been included in the bar table motion last night so to -- there won't
10 be duplicity.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, admitted into evidence, but, of
12 course we first need a number.
13 Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P581.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P581 is admitted into evidence.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number
18 3506, please.
19 Q. While the document comes up, Mr. Janic, were you questioned about
20 the Grubori incident by the Ministry of Interior police bureau in 2004,
21 in the course of an investigation initiated by the county prosecutor of
22 Sibenik in 2001. Do you recall that?
23 A. Well, I don't know who initiated that, but, yes, it was in 2004
24 that I was questioned by the crime police investigation.
25 The office in which I was interviewed was actually just a stone's
1 throw away from my own office in which I normally work. In answer to
2 your question, yes, I was questioned.
3 Q. And in the course of that interview did they take down notes of
4 your interview -- let me just -- to make it short. If you could look at
5 the document in front of you and let us know if in fact it is an accurate
6 note of your interview?
7 A. I should probably read this in its entirety. But one thing I can
8 tell you, I've never seen it before.
9 Q. No, I didn't think so. That's why I would like to you take a
10 look at it and tell us whether it is an accurate note.
11 A. Could you please pull the document up a little?
12 We can move on.
13 And on.
14 Q. I think we need to move to the next page. Yeah.
15 A. I've read it.
16 Q. And do you agree that it is an accurate note of your interview
17 with the Ministry of Interior crime police, in 2004?
18 A. Well, I was interviewed and this note was drawn up, but the
19 interview was not recorded, and no minutes were taken. So this is an
20 interpretation of the interview that the police officer did following the
21 interview. Therefore, it is not perfectly accurate. This was never
22 submitted to me for approval or signature, this Official Note. In
23 principle, the note changes nothing with respect to my previous and later
24 statements but not all of the details are perfectly accurate and the
25 context of some of this information is not exactly what I shared with the
1 police officer during this interview at this time. I should assume that
2 he drew this up based on his memory of our interview and that might be
3 the reason that it is not perfectly accurate.
4 The other thing I wish to say is this. I'm still with the
5 police. Therefore, I can say this: Official Notes such as this one
6 cannot be used in court proceedings. This is not admitted into evidence,
7 a document like this, in our own system and Official Notes such as these
8 cannot be used as exhibits. It is just one thing I wanted to say. I'm
9 not sure how you deal with this.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You're looking at me, Mr. Janic. This Tribunal is
11 not bound by any domestic system as far as the law of evidence is
12 concerned and how we're going to deal with it. I appreciate your
13 interest in criminal procedure. At the same time, if you would focus on
14 the questions, that would also be appreciated.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to tender this document
17 into evidence.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: I would have an objection on this, Your Honour.
19 What is the basis for this document be taken into the evidence because
20 this is not the statement of the witness which is sitting here in front
21 of us. This is an note made by the police officer in Zagreb police
22 administration. So I think the proper basis would be to discuss this
23 document with the police officer who is the author of it.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the witness has confirmed that
25 this is a note based on an interview between himself and a police officer
1 and with regard to the inaccuracies, the Defence has the -- can explore
2 the inaccuracies in the course of cross-examination. I have established
3 a basis for the admission of the document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I did not --
5 MR. MISETIC: I know, I rise to my feet just because of the
6 general nature and the impact this would have on other statements, but I
7 would note that the Office of the Prosecutor has witness statements that
8 it has taken by its investigators which we've attempted to tender which
9 have been denied admission, so I'm not sure if the witness has not made
10 the 92 ter attestations pursuant to Rule 92 ter that this is a statement
11 of his and I'm not sure what the difference is between a statement taken
12 by a police officer in Croatia
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the difference is that if a statement is taken
15 by an OTP investigator that the statement is taken for the purpose of
16 investigations and prosecution before this Tribunal. If you would like
17 at the case law, then you will see that sometimes contemporaneous or at
18 least all the statements that not taken for the purposes of one of the
19 parties in the trials before this Tribunal are dealt with in a different
20 way than statements taken specifically to serve as -- as evidence in this
22 MR. MISETIC: If I may just follow up with that, Your Honour, for
23 future guidance. If statements are taken by the Croatian police or
24 Croatian prosecutors pursuant to their criminal cases or notes, I should
25 say, those statements --
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you look -- if you compare for example, and that
2 is one of the examples that comes immediately into my mind, in the
3 Haradinaj case quite a lot of statements were taken from suspects and
4 witnesses at the time approximately when the events had happened, not for
5 the purpose of being used in this Tribunal but for different purposes,
6 those were admitted into evidence, not under Rule 92 ter, and of course
7 the Chamber will consider, I mean we're not in a hurry with it at this
8 moment, but at least there is an -- a difference.
9 Another matter is what weight to give, whether the Chamber would
10 accept the statement as -- as solid evidence for the truth of its
11 content. That is of course a different matter. At least this document,
12 so apart from the decision of the Chamber will be, demonstrates also in
13 connection with the testimony of this witness that there was an
14 interview. Apparently there was an investigation and that at least a
15 report was made of that interview. I mean, to that extent the statement
16 would have some probative value, not necessarily about what happened in
17 1995 but at least what happened later on.
18 MR. MISETIC: Thank you. I understand Your Honour and I don't
19 want to take more time I just wish to --
20 JUDGE ORIE: This is not a decision but I just wanted to point
21 out the difference between statements taken for the specific purpose of
22 being used as evidence before this Tribunal and statements taken in a
23 different context.
24 MR. MISETIC: Just one minor point, Your Honour, and I understand
25 the reasoning there. However, I will look and see if there is any case
1 law on this, but statements taken for these proceedings by the opposing
2 party to me would tend to be a different situation than for example a
3 Gotovina defense witness statement and then us tendering it.
4 But let's have that discussion I guess for a later date.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. MISETIC: But I understand the --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know who's opposing party to whom in this
8 context, but we'll consider it.
9 And, Mr. Tieger, perhaps it is good if we have Mr. Mikulicic to
10 say first.
11 Mr. Mikulicic.
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
13 I will just add one little remark on it. This is anonymous note.
14 We don't know who the author is. There is no sign, there is no name on
15 it. We don't know how could we check on the note whether this is
16 accurate or no.
17 This is just a remark as it relates to the credibility of the
19 JUDGE ORIE: What we usually do is under those circumstances is
20 to seek further information from the party presenting the evidence to
21 explain where it originates from and then of course with that knowledge
22 we can further consider whether that is sufficient information, whether
23 it is accepted by the Defence or whether that needs further exploration.
24 Mr. Tieger, you were on were your feet.
25 MR. TIEGER: Just quickly, Your Honour, because Mr. Misetic rose
1 on a matter of a general nature and I just wanted to make sure that a
2 specific instance wasn't expanded into and across the board principle of
3 any type. So with reference to previous attempted submissions made by
4 Mr. Misetic, I don't recall, in fact, a precisely analogous situation
5 where a statement made by the particular witness on the stand was
6 presented to him.
7 So I just --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have some difficulties there identifying
9 what Mr. Misetic was exactly referring to.
10 MR. TIEGER: So it is not necessarily simply the nature of the
11 document that is only relevant issue in determining admissibility at any
12 point; it's also the context. And that is all I wanted to say.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. MISETIC: My point is that he is on the stand and because he
15 is on the stand we have rules under Rule 92 ter on how those statement
16 would say be admitted which is why I then drew the broader analogy
17 concerning the reliability of whatever statements are taken outside the
18 context of a specific case. Clearly 92 ter has not been met here so
19 we're obviously applying a different set of rules, and then I was just
20 saying that if we could define a little bit which statements get in and
21 which statements don't. My general point was that I don't see in terms
22 of the probative value much difference between a statement taken by the
23 Croatian police and a statement taken by the Prosecution but tendered by
24 the Defence, but, like I said, this is more of a general topic and
25 perhaps we can have it at a later date.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As matters stand now we'll invite
2 Mr. Registrar to mark this document for identification.
3 Ms. Mahindaratne, you have heard that Mr. Mikulicic has some
4 difficulties with the origin of this document. If there's anything that
5 could be submitted in that respect the Chamber will hear from you.
6 And, Mr. Registrar, this will be.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be exhibit number P582
8 marked for identification.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And that will be the status for the time being.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, and we will submit evidence in
11 due course of it's -- regarding the authenticity -- the origin, yeah.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
14 Q. Before you just move on to the next topic while we're still on
15 your statement, Mr. Janic, if I could take you to paragraph 70 of your
16 statement, 2004.
17 You refer to check-points there. And you say that: "After 8th
18 August 1995, when the main Operation Storm was over, there were
19 fundamental police check-points but we were not stopped as we were on
20 official business and would not really have the authority to stop us. I
21 do not recall any military check-points, although there were military
22 police check-points, but they had no authority to stop us. The military
23 police check-points s were apart from the fundamental police
24 check-points. These check-points usually consisted of a car or two
25 parked by the side of the road. The purpose of these check-points was
1 for the fundamental police to check civilians' identification and to
2 check if they had any weapons or any looted items. And the military
3 police check-point was to check military personnel."
4 Now my question was if the fundamental police did not have
5 authority to stop the special police, who had the authority to stop the
6 special police if members of the special police were observed committing
7 crimes? And I'm not suggesting to you now to contemplate on whether they
8 committed crimes or not. My question is who would have the authority to
9 stop them if they were observed committing crimes?
10 A. Well, if you look at paragraph 70, this is where I offer my
11 somewhat liberal interpretation. Of course something happens, someone
12 stops someone else at any sort of check-point, regular or special police,
13 even special policemen would have to stop. But as a rule they didn't
14 stop us.
15 Q. Mr. Janic, please, I'm running out of time. If could you just
16 answer as to who, which force had the authority to stop special police
17 and perhaps arrest them if they were observed committing crimes. That's
18 my question to you, and if could you try to answer that as briefly as
20 A. I was talking about this specific case. I didn't understand you
21 to be asking me a general question.
22 If there is a special police member who commits a crime all the
23 general regulations are applied as to all other citizens and then it is
24 the regular police that would have the authority to arrest them. The
25 procedure would probably be to inform his superior commander and then his
1 superior commander would help and the local police would help arrest that
2 person. It would be the local police station that would have the
3 responsibility under the law to arrest this person who possibly committed
4 a crime in the line of duty. That's what the law says, as long as a
5 crime was committed, of course. What I was talking about is being pulled
6 over while driving down a road at some check-point or other, that is what
7 I was referring to. But if there is a crime that occurs that the same
8 laws apply to special police members as they do to any other citizen, and
9 the regular police has the responsibility to take the same kind of action
10 or the same kind of steps with respect to anyone.
11 In paragraph 70 what I was referring to was traffic checks. They
12 would never stop us. We were in special police vehicles and they were
13 the regular police. You hardly ever see police stopping another police
14 vehicle. It wasn't done back then and I don't think it is even done
15 nowadays in 2008. It is an extremely rare occurrence.
16 Q. And did you ever see -- you say that the military police
17 check-points was to check military personnel. Did you see military
18 personnel being checked at military check-points or being stopped at
19 military check-points?
20 A. Well, you see, following the 8th or the 9th of August, the army
21 was no longer deployed in those areas and wasn't moving in those areas.
22 They were either in barracks or moving towards the Bosnia-Herzegovina
23 border. As of that date, I did not see any of the Croatian army units
24 moving along that area. The MPs were there, but I personally never saw
25 them stop anyone.
1 Q. Thank you for that.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number
3 1665, please.
4 Q. Mr. Janic, while the document comes up I draw your attention to
5 paragraph 33 of your 2004 statement where you refer to the liberation of
7 Now, this is a report going from Mr. Markac to the chief of
8 Croatian army Main Staff, General Cervenko. Is this an accurate report,
9 because you were commanding this line of special police that liberated
11 A. Well, that is not quite true what you suggest. I was the
12 commander of one of the axes during that operation. I was responsible
13 for some segments of the special police. The report, however, is
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I move to tender this document
16 into evidence.
17 MR. MIKULICIC: No objection.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number P583, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P583 is admitted into evidence.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Now, in paragraph 47 -- I'm sorry,
23 Mr. Registrar, may I call document number 1664, please.
24 Now, Mr. Janic, in paragraph 47 you refer to setting up the
25 special police headquarters in Gracac once it was liberated. Now, before
1 I ask you the question, could you just take a look at this document and
2 tell us if this is an accurate report? It reports that on 5th
3 August 1995 by 1130 hours the special police units took complete control
4 over Gracac, and by 1200 hours they have taken control of the Celavac and
5 Prezid areas.
6 Is that a correct -- accurate report?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I move to tender this document
9 into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
11 Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P584.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P584 is admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
16 Q. Now, once the special police headquarters was set up in Gracac on
17 5th August, till when did the special police operate from Gracac from
18 that headquarters?
19 A. I cannot remember now exactly. There are some documents bearing
20 some date. I saw these dates. I think it was in October or November,
21 but I cannot be sure. After perusing through the documents before my
22 arrival here, I remember seeing the exact date but cannot remember it
24 Q. In paragraph 75, you say that you saw -- I'll read it just the
25 way it is recorded: "As far as General Markac was concerned I would see
1 him fairly regularly, both during and after the operation. I would see
2 Mr. Sacic as often as I would see General Markac."
3 Now, did you see Mr. Markac and Mr. Sacic at the headquarters in
4 Gracac? Where did you see them regularly?
5 A. In the headquarters in Gracac. Of course they were not there
6 everyday but they were often there.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I move to -- I don't know
8 whether document has been given a number. I move to tender this document
9 into evidence.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: No objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, isn't this the same document as
14 was assigned number P584?
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And then it has been admitted into evidence already.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Page 25, line 23. Please proceed.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I missed that.
20 Mr. Registrar, may I call Exhibit number P325, please.
21 Q. Mr. Janic, in paragraph 28, you describe the special police
22 uniforms and you say: "Our uniform at the time during the whole of
23 Operation Storm was light green plain uniform with green helmets. I
24 believe that we wore yellow ribbons on our shoulders during the operation
25 for identification purposes."
1 Can you identify the photograph -- the people in these pictures,
2 are they members of the special police? Based on the uniform can you say
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if we could move to perhaps the next
5 photograph, I think it is a more clearer picture, if Mr. Janic wants to
6 look at it.
7 Q. You can see the insignia clearer on this picture.
8 A. Yes. Judging by the insignia on their uniforms, these are the
9 insignia of military police.
10 Q. I'm sorry. You said military police. Did you refer to special
11 police. Was it --
12 A. No, no, I said special police. It may have been mistranslated.
13 Q. And there was evidence led and this in fact to the effect that
14 the units or commander of this unit identified the unit as the Delta unit
15 and this was on 8th August in Gracac. Do you know, in fact, if the Delta
16 unit was in Gracac on that day?
17 A. I think it was, but I would have to look it up in the documents.
18 I think that in Gracac on the 5th of August, as far as I can remember, a
19 group from this unit ran into a Serbian ambush and one of the members of
20 the unit was killed. That was immediately after they entered the town.
21 While they were entering the town there was no fighting going on, because
22 the Serbian forces had actually fled. However, there were some Serbian
23 forces that were staying behind on a truck and they opened fire from
24 their truck and that is how one of our members was killed.
25 Q. Thank you for that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could I ask one further question
2 on the colour of the ribbons.
3 Please correct me when I'm wrong, but it's my recollection that
4 in one of the previous documents we saw in which there was planning of an
5 operation, I think it was for the 26th of August, that other colours of
6 ribbons or arm-bands were used for identification purposes.
7 Is my recollection correct, which would mean that not only yellow
8 ribbons but other circumstances, other arm-bands or ribbons or whatever
9 of a different colour would be used in order to identify the special
10 police forces?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain that to you. We used
12 yellow ribbons during Operation Storm but we as a unit also had other
13 coloured ribbons in our storage house for other operations. I suppose
14 that these ribbons cannot last for 20 days. These yellow ribbons were
15 used specifically for Operation Storm. Before that, there was
16 Operation Flash when I think red ribbons were used, so these changes were
17 introduced for tactical reasons. At one point one type of ribbons were
18 replaced by another ribbons in a different colour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I could assist, I think your
21 reference was to a document which gave information about a mop-up
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it is. My problem is that if once it is upload
24 so that we can see it, it takes a while before we can have access to it,
25 if it is admitted into evidence. But I think that that was the planning
1 letter dated 25th of August for the operations on the 26th, as far as I
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's correct, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If anyone would have the exhibit number then we
5 could put it on the record just for the convenience of those who would
6 later consult this transcript. But, otherwise, please proceed,
7 Ms. Mahindaratne.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's P579, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, it is P580, not 579.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then thank you for that number as well,
12 Ms. Mahindaratne.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
14 Q. Now one other question on this, Mr. Janic. I don't have much
15 time. Do you remember what colour ribbons were worn by the special
16 police units in the course of the operation in Plavno on 25th August?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number
19 2760, please.
20 Q. Mr. Janic, while the document comes up, I refer you to
21 paragraph 34 of your statement where you describe the liberation of
22 Donji Lapac. Is this -- this is a report going from Mr. Markac to
23 General Cervenko regarding the capture of Donji Lapac. Is this an
24 accurate report?
25 A. Can we have it scrolled up a bit, please.
1 Can I see the end, please.
2 Roughly speaking, it would be accurate.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I move to tendere this document
4 into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
6 Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P585.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P585 is admitted into evidence.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
11 Q. Mr. Janic, drawing you to paragraph 37 of your statement you say:
12 "When I entered Donji Lapac I saw about -- " further down. I don't want
13 to waste time reading the entire paragraph.
14 You say: "When we entered the town it was being shelled but by
15 the afternoon the shelling had stopped."
16 In paragraph 36 you say: "When I reached Donji Lapac, some of
17 the buildings were burning in the centre, including the police station.
18 I heard that was done by the artillery fire. I did not go through the
19 whole town but what I saw was not too badly damaged."
20 Now, in relation to that, let me take to you what you have said
21 at the interview, and that would be P553, the second set. That is 5308,
22 page 11. There you're referring to the liberation of Donji Lapac. You
23 say -- and you were asked the question: "And did you use again -- did
24 you again use artillery support?" This is in relation to Donji Lapac.
25 You say: "No. There was no need because there was no
1 resistance, there was no conflict. We did not encounter anybody so there
2 was no need."
3 Again, you go on to express, you say: "There was no need for a
4 sort of prior artillery fire that would come before us because the
5 situation was such that the enemy was running away. They were -- the
6 atmosphere was such that basically we felt that we didn't need any prior
7 artillery before we moved."
8 And then there is an discussion as to what other people have said
9 about this.
10 Then you -- in paragraph 13, line 14 you say: "Truly, there was
11 no need for it and that is why I did not use this possibility."
12 Now, can you then explain as to now you as the commander of that
13 particular axis of attack did not consider artillery support necessary
14 for that. Do you know why it was used, why in fact the town was shelled?
15 A. I gave my statement from the position of the role that I had at
16 the time, which is a commander of the main axis. On my axis there was no
17 resistance and no fighting and I did not use artillery support because I
18 did not need it. I don't know about the other axis. I know that the
19 army of the district of Gospic covering the whole of Lapac was there, but
20 I don't know if they used artillery or not. My report refers only to my
21 line of attack and my zone, in which I personally did not use any
22 artillery support for either in-depth targets or any strongholds directly
23 facing my forces. There was no need for that because everybody had fled.
24 However, whether at the beginning of the operation they were in the area
25 of Lapac around the town, I cannot say. I am talking about the situation
1 in which I was and I'm talking about this from my own position. I cannot
2 tell anything about other axes from the special police nor about what the
3 army did with regard to the use of artillery.
4 Q. And your axis went through the town of Donji Lapac, went through
5 Donji Lapac, wasn't it?
6 A. No, no. My axis was called the main one. However, it stretched
7 somehow along the shortcut but it also traversed the highest hills, and
8 the final objective was to reach the roads around Donji Lapac and the
9 town itself. Therefore, we were the last to reach the town, and there
10 was no fighting for the town, so we virtually walked into it. There was
11 no fighting either in the town or around town at the time when I arrived
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us at what time you did arrive?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. Around 12.00 or
15 1.00. Maybe one can find this information in the reports. But I think
16 it was around 1.00 or 2.00.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number --
20 I'm sorry, can I tender this document into evidence. I don't know if
21 that was done. I may have missed out. There was -- the document that
22 was on the screen, that was?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this was admitted as P585.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call document number 5011, please.
25 Q. Now, while that document comes up Mr. Janic, in paragraph 38 of
1 your statement, you refer to military units arriving in Donji Lapac in
2 the afternoon of 7th August.
3 And if you could look at this document that's on the screen that
4 refers to what happened in Donji Lapac, and, in fact, your involvement in
5 addressing the matter with the unit commanders of the military, units
6 that arrived Donji Lapac.
7 Mr. Janic, you're looking at another document. Could you just
8 look at the screen. Is this an accurate report? This refers to you
9 addressing unit commander of the military about burning and problems in
10 Donji Lapac.
11 A. Well, this is accurate, more or less.
12 Q. And did you ever find out why the military units were setting
13 fire to houses in Donji Lapac? Did the unit commanders tell you what was
14 going on?
15 A. Since special police forces, at the time when they entered the
16 town, were immediately deployed out of town, which means that there were
17 no special police in the town with the exception of our specialist
18 logistical base from which we were supplied with food and other stuff.
19 On the late afternoon of the 7th when the army from the
20 district -- military district of Gospic arrived --
21 Q. Mr. Janic, if I could just interrupt, my question was, did you --
22 and please try to confine your response to my question. Did you find out
23 from the military unit commanders with whom you spoke as to why the units
24 kept burning houses through the night? What was the reason?
25 A. I did not find out about that. I was at this meeting. I warned
1 the officer there about the situation, and as much as I could do in my
2 position, I requested this to stop. So that was my entire exchange that
3 I had with him. I considered that my warning would be sufficient for
4 them to move and restore order in their units.
5 Q. And at your debriefing with Mr. Markac on 9th August, did you
6 inform of this, the burning of the houses in Donji Lapac by military
7 units, according to this report?
8 A. I don't know when, but I did inform him. I told him about my
9 meeting with the military and that I requested them to restore order
10 within their forces. However, on what date it was, I cannot tell you.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I move this document into
13 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
14 Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P586.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P586 is admitted into evidence.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up document number 3342, please.
19 And this is my last couple of questions, Mr. President.
20 Q. Mr. Janic, have you seen this document before?
21 A. I think I did. I think I did.
22 Q. This is an order from Mr. Markac addressed to all special police
23 unit chiefs and there are a couple of units excepted and then the head of
24 special police sector anti-terrorist unit commander, that Lucko
25 anti-terrorist commander and the airborne unit commander.
1 And if you could scroll down to paragraph 2 of the English
2 version, amongst the many orders he orders the units, in this way: "Unit
3 commanders and department heads with the special police sector shall
4 forthwith take measures to ensure civilised professional and lawful
5 execution of official assignments of the special police members, thus
6 eliminating arrogance and haughtiness in dealing with the population."
7 Now, this document is dated 15th November. What was the basis
8 for this order? It presupposes that there was some observed
9 irregularities during the operation which is referred and that there was
10 uncivilised and unlawful conduct because it clearly orders not to do
11 that. What was the basis for this order?
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Sorry, Your Honour, I just cannot see whether
13 this order is related to the Operation Storm.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That might transpire or not transpire from the
15 answer to this question. That is still to be seen.
16 Ms. Mahindaratne is certainly not asking to you speculate. Do
17 you know what the basis is for this order where apparently measures are
18 taken to avoid in the future certain kind of misconduct? Do you know
19 what triggered or what events triggered this order to be issued?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you an accurate
21 answer. I was head of the department at the time and it applied to all
22 my men. I know that there were lots of problems where the special forces
23 returned from the field and they acted sort of arrogantly within their
24 local community and there was some conflicts with those who were not
25 involved in war. For instance, if a person went back to Pula
1 special police -- military police were proud and treated somewhat
2 arrogantly other people who did not take part in the war. This happened
3 in cafes and in their free time.
4 I don't know what prompted the general to issue this order, but I
5 think that what he wanted to see better discipline in that part because
6 there was no lack of discipline while they were on duty. It happened
7 most of the time off duty. And under the law, they are obliged to behave
8 themselves according to the law, whether they're on duty or off duty. I
9 think this is the -- the point of this particular paragraph.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I move this document into evidence,
11 Mr. President.
12 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
14 Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P587.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P587 is admitted into evidence.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I just wanted to wait for the
18 witness to answer that question, but I just want to point out that
19 interruption in the presence of the witness was inappropriate giving the
20 material to witnesses. I hope Defence counsel will not repeat that
22 JUDGE ORIE: From my answer to your objection, Mr. Mikulicic, you
23 may have noted that I thought that it would have been wiser to wait for
24 the answer, and if that is wiser, then is preferred to refrain from
1 MR. MIKULICIC: I'm sorry, I apologise.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It is not dramatic at the same time.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That concludes examination-in-chief.
5 Mr. President, I apologise for the time I took beyond the time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then have a break first.
7 We'll then have a break and resume at five minutes to 11.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, are you ready to cross-examine the
11 witness, Mr. Janic?
12 MR. MIKULICIC: I am, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Janic, Mr. Mikulicic is counsel for Mr. Markac
14 and he will now cross-examine you.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Janic. I will asking you
19 questions on behalf of Mr. Markac's Defence. Please answer to the best
20 of your knowledge and recollection. I would also like to ask you the
21 following. Try to give our interpreters a decent chance to do their work
22 while answering your questions. May I also ask you to pause between our
23 questions and our answers, since we both speak the same language.
24 Mr. Janic, you are a long-time police officer and you are fully
25 trained. How long have you been working with the Ministry of Interior?
1 A. I have been a member of the special police for over 20 years.
2 Q. You went to certain schools during your career with the special
3 police. Can you tell us briefly what sort of training you underwent?
4 A. You mean background as in education or do you mean other kinds of
6 Q. I mean both, actually.
7 A. I went to secondary police school, the higher police school and
8 the police academy. I have a degree in criminology. I underwent various
9 types of specialist training, mostly to do with anti-terrorism; for
10 example, hostage stage situations, planes getting kidnapped
11 mountaineering, parachuting, crisis management. I was in charge of some
12 of these training sessions and courses myself and I attended some of
13 these, and there has been a lot of that going on over my career with the
14 military police.
15 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. Obviously we would be
16 justified in assuming that you are something of an exceptional case
17 within the special police. But can you tell us what sort of training
18 special police officers normally get.
19 A. Special police officers are, nevertheless, police officers.
20 Therefore, they undergo usual police training. They have to know about
22 procedure, the Criminal Code and all general laws and regulations. They
23 have to be familiar with all these rules that the work of each and every
24 police officer is subject to. They have to know the rules of procedure.
25 The fact is we're talking about special police. Therefore, there
1 is also additional specialist training, which normally comprises a large
2 number of specialities. This was first done in the 1990s when the
3 special police units were first set up and this practice has continued
4 into this very day, 2008. Special police officers study anti-terrorist
5 tactics which teaches them what to do in certain situations, planes being
6 kidnapped, ships being kidnapped, dealing with hostage situations and how
7 to get hostages released and various types of situations. I could go on
8 like that because is there more.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I think this is an typo here,
10 page 38, line 15. Special police is noted down as military police. I
11 just wanted -- it is a small point, but I just wanted to point that out.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you for that, Ms. Mahindaratne.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Janic, would you agree with me that the
16 principle purpose of the special police, since it is a component of
18 whenever law and order are under any significant threats?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. When the war in Croatia
21 special police units to be involved in certain types of military
22 activity, did the special police units not have to undergo some form of
23 military training?
24 A. That was most certainly the case. Throughout the early 1990s
25 large tracts of Croatia
1 had a commitment to Croatia
2 their country and the same applied to the police. The special police was
3 an elite branch of Croatia
4 obligation to join in. We had specialist knowledge and special skills
5 and the expectations were great in that respect. Special police officers
6 underwent both specialist training, regular police training and military
7 training, in addition to that. We were involved in war operations
8 between 1990 and 1995. The training included tactical training of all
9 members, in the sense of infantry tactics, and also artillery training.
10 We were trained how to clear mines, how to use anti-tank or anti-armour
11 weapons. We were taught to deal with intelligence, gather intelligence,
12 and use intelligence that we received. This was also part of our
13 specialist training and there was a part of our training that was meant
14 to familiarize with all sorts of international conventions and laws.
15 So that, too, was part of our training.
16 Q. Thank you for that answer. Let's try and say a thing or two
17 about the makeup of the special police units and I'm talking primarily
18 about their ethnic makeup.
19 What about the standards or requirements that were required for
20 someone to become a member of the special police unit? Did this ever
21 follow ethnic, religious or other lines of that nature or were there
22 other criteria applied?
23 A. No, none of those were applied. Then, as now, was only standard
24 that applied was skill and ability on the part of an individual candidate
25 both in mental and purely physical terms, so those were the requirements
1 that needed meeting. As long as someone met all those requirements they
2 would be in a position to become members of the special police but this
3 was never done along ethnic or religious lines. I never heard of
4 anything like that happening and I was there all the time. I knew
5 exactly what was going on.
6 Q. Could you for example confirm this for me, Mr. Skender Hasimi
7 [phoen], an ethnic Albanian was a special police commander in the Pula
8 police administration. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What about Mr. Ile Taletovic, a Muslim. He held the same post in
11 the Dubrovnik
12 A. Yes. I can confirm that.
13 Q. What about Mr. Hamdija Masinovic, another Muslim who was a
14 commander with the Bjelovar police administration?
15 A. Yes, that is true.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a matter in dispute?
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. MIKULICIC: I'm glad to hear it, Your Honour.
20 [Interpretation] Could we please have a 65 ter document, 5031.
21 Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Janic, a document is about to come up on your screen. It
23 shows the structure of the special police units of the Ministry of
24 Interior of the Republic of Croatia
25 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in slightly
1 to allow the witness to see the document.
2 Q. Let us try to remind ourselves of how the structure worked, how
3 the system worked. Please have a look first and then tell me if you
4 think the chart faithfully reflects what you know about the system and
5 how it worked.
6 A. Yes, this is a chart of the special police sector.
7 Q. So the chief of sector is the boss in a manner of speaking,
9 A. Yes, that's true.
10 Q. All right. In the left-hand side of our screens we see a box
11 that says internal control sector. This will come up again during our
12 evidence here but we see that there is someone who is the head of this
13 unit and they have internal control inspectors, as they call them.
14 Now, in what way exactly was this sector a part of particular
15 units of the special police? Can you tell me anything about that?
16 A. I didn't directly work with this sector, but they had their own
17 man in each of the units and then they would receive reports from each of
18 the units.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, request the English translation
20 would be provided later on by the Defence.
21 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you. It just came on.
23 MR. MIKULICIC: This is a 65 ter document and I believe there is
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It just came on the screen. Thank you.
1 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Correct me if I'm wrong, sir, of course the
3 images you're looking at are somewhat smaller now and that makes it more
4 difficult for you to see. Within this sector we have the terrorism
5 prevention department, then we have the Lucko anti-terrorist unit, the
6 air force unit, the psychological and propaganda department, and the last
7 thing we see is the logistics department. That tallies with what you
8 know about how this worked, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can we please move on to the next page of this document.
12 What we're looking is another chart. This is the internal
13 structure of the special police units and they are attached to various
14 police administrations of the Ministry of Interior. You've already
15 mentioned that in each of the police administrations across the country
16 there was a special police unit attached to it headed by a commander.
17 Now, a special police unit commander, who did he answer to within the
18 structure of the police administration?
19 A. The head of the police administration.
20 Q. All right. So this commander had an assistant commander and then
21 we see who else worked within this same framework.
22 If we move on to the next page --
23 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If the registrar to help us with
24 this, please.
25 Q. We see a list and a job description for each of these units, for
1 each of these units that were part of the overall composition.
2 There is one thing that I would like to dwell on briefly.
3 06119434, this shows us the composition, the structure of the
4 anti-terrorist unit, the specialist anti-terrorist unit.
5 MR. MIKULICIC: So if we could go to the last page of this
6 document. Okay. This -- that's the one, that's the one. Thank you.
7 I'm always referring to the number in the upper right-hand
8 corner. Maybe if there is any other way to proceed with this, I would be
9 glad to be instructed on it.
10 Okay, let's proceed.
11 Q. [Interpretation] What we see here is a job description for the
12 anti-terrorist unit. You mentioned earlier on, Mr. Janic, that in some
13 way the anti-terrorist unit was an elite unit in practical terms. Can
14 you please briefly explain what led you to you reach that conclusion?
15 A. All of the other units were special units. The Lucko ATJ was an
16 anti-terrorist unit and the requirements that this unit had to face were
17 higher, in terms of mental criteria, in terms of physical ability, the
18 requirements were greater. The bar was set higher. And its area of
19 activity covered Croatia
20 a unit that was active throughout Croatia
21 so much to do with local police administrations and I think the same
22 situation applies now. For example they control the air space and
23 whenever something happens there, there is only one unit in the country
24 that can deal with the situation. For example, if have you have a very
25 complex hostage situation and this may or not may not occur. This is the
1 only unit that could deal with it, there are a number of other
2 peculiarities that are attached to the work of this unit but this would
3 be it for our present purposes.
4 Q. You mentioned certain peculiarities. Do you think that includes
5 a particularly high level training when it came to clearing mines,
6 dealing with explosives and such-like?
7 A. Yes, that was most certainly the case. The Lucko ATJ then, as
8 now, had all the best trained people to deal with mines and explosives,
9 especially explosives placed under water. For example, clearing torpedos
10 and anti-naval mines and explosives. There is no other unit in Croatia
11 that can actually deal with situations of that kind.
12 Q. Thank you for your answer. We're looking at this document but
13 this document as a matter of fact contains a number of documents. It is
14 made up of a number of documents and we see there a part which actually
15 comes from the decree on the internal structure and the principles of
16 work of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia
17 is a decree passed on the 23rd February 1995 by Croatia's government.
18 We can move on to the next page and this is 06119435. As soon as
19 we're there, we can look at the bottom of the page and you see there is
20 talk there of the special police sector. This is page 12 of the
21 pertinent document. And then we move on to the next page and we see
22 paragraph 28.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Previous translation continues] ...
24 Mr. Mikulicic referred to decree, but I could not follow from which page
25 you were citing, Mr. Mikulicic.
1 MR. MIKULICIC: The whole decree as -- I mean in total, is under
2 the ID number 3D00-1502 but this particular part of that decree which I'm
3 referring on is part of the 65 ter that I mentioned before.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'll try to catch up later on, Mr. President.
5 I'm sure we will make the connection.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: I'm sure there will be no dispute on that.
7 Q. [Interpretation] We're talking about paragraph 28. Paragraph 28
8 talks about internal control within the special police sector. This is
9 what the law says: "Internal control department undertakes measures and
10 activities aimed at collecting, processing and using intelligence related
11 to internal discipline within the special police, terror groups and their
12 activities as well as other activities posing a serious threat to human
13 lives and property."
14 The department also works on security protection of the special
15 police, equipment, weapons as well as any other tasks in which special
16 police members are involved.
17 It goes on to say that this department works with the service for
18 the protection the constitutional order, they work on refining
19 security-related information, intelligence, and this is something that is
20 used for carrying out tasks peculiar to the work of the special police
21 units and the department has a head who is in charge of this department.
22 Mr. Janic, you say that each unit had its own -- in each unit
23 there was a representative or a man belonging to the internal control
24 department. Based on your memory we're talking about 1995, the same time
25 as Operation Storm, were these the tasks and responsibilities that these
1 representatives of theirs would be carrying out across the units?
2 A. Yes. The department itself and these men from that department
3 had one principal task: Collecting intelligence, analysing intelligence,
4 exchanging intelligence, and then there was the intelligence service of
5 the Croatian army and the service for the protection of the
6 constitutional order and there were a number of other service services
7 that worked in gathering intelligence in order to pool all this
8 intelligence from all of these various branches and services and then
9 what they did was they drew up security assessments that had to do with
10 certain areas and activities carried out by the special police. You
11 might call this the intelligence department, just that it simply couldn't
12 be called that and therefore it was called internal control. It wasn't
13 possible to call it intelligence department.
14 Q. Mr. Janic, do you know that the sector for internal control
15 conducted any disciplinary procedures or did it instigate or process
16 disciplinary measures against members of the police?
17 A. No, that was not within their jurisdiction concerning the
18 internal order within the Ministry of Interior, and I may say that the
19 same situation prevails today. Disciplinary proceedings were instigated
20 by unit commanders or superiors. If you have a police station and a
21 policeman from that station commits a misdemeanour, then the head or the
22 chief of the police station will launch disciplinary proceeding.
23 JUDGE ORIE: This is an request to slow down. That means both
24 speed of speech but also a pause between questions and answer and answer
25 and question.
1 Please proceed.
2 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm, okay.
3 [Interpretation] Similarly, according to the same principle the
4 person authorised to instigate disciplinary proceedings within the
5 special police was the commander of a specific unit, so one of his
6 responsibilities was to institute disciplinary proceedings for
7 disciplinary breaches within his units. If I were to commit one, then
8 the disciplinary proceedings against me would have had to be instigated
9 by the head of the sector. However, the internal control sector did not
10 have within its purview any competence or authority to institute
11 disciplinary proceedings.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have this
14 document admitted into evidence and that a number be assigned to it as a
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D526.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D526 is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we can have now document
21 3D00-1502, please.
22 Q. What we are about to see on our screens, Mr. Janic, is a decree
23 issued by the government of the republic of Croatia
24 internal structure and the modus operandi of the Ministry of Interior.
25 For the sake of me asking you a question, only one section of
1 this decree has been translated and I'm going to refer it now. Article 2
2 of this decree specifies the structure of certain parts within the
3 ministry. It mentions the office, the chief of office, the sectors,
4 sections et cetera. However, we are going to dwell on Article 4, and if
5 we can look at the next page of this decree, please.
6 This article stipulates the structure of the unit which is called
7 the cabinet or the office of the minister. We're not going to go into
8 the specific responsibilities of this office. However, I would like to
9 draw your attention to Article 8, which speaks about the office of
10 internal control.
11 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] So can we please see Article 8.
12 That's two pages ahead in the Croatian document. And can we please have
13 the upper part of the page enlarged.
14 Q. So, Article 8 stipulates that within the office of the minister
15 an office for internal control will be set up.
16 So this unit is called here office, unlike the unit within
17 special police units where it is called a section.
18 Let us look at what this article says. By operating with all
19 sectors of the ministry, the internal control office should
20 systematically gather data and report which indicate various forms of
21 illegal conduct by officials and so on and so forth.
22 Are you familiar with how this office operated, which was
23 attached to the office of minister, and which has a similar name to the
24 one that we discussed before?
25 A. Yes. This office exists today and it is also part of the office
1 of the minister. Its jurisdiction today is the same as it is written
2 here, which means that it independently gathers information and reports
3 about any illegal or unlawful conduct by members of the police. It
4 conducts checks in the field and then decides how to act on this
5 information. Therefore, it is not part of the police structure in terms
6 that it is above the police but, however, it is independent and is
7 allowed to independently investigate the conduct of police officers.
8 Q. This office for internal control set up within the office of the
9 minister, in a position of kind of subordinations or second-instance
10 organ within the special police relating to internal control?
11 A. The office for internal control of the office of the minister is
12 completely independent in its work. The internal control department of
13 the special police must provide certain information if the office asks
14 for it and it is their duty to provide this information, just like any
15 other department within the Ministry of the Interior and the police.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a number
18 assigned to this document. Then I would like to tender into evidence
19 this section that has been translated.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D527.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D527 is admitted into evidence.
24 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. If we look now at document 65 ter 02452, we'll see that this
1 document, which will soon appear on our screens, is an annual report of
2 the special police sector.
3 If we move to the next page, we can see that this document was
4 issued on the 22nd February 1996, that it was addressed to the minister
5 of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, and that this is a report relating to the
6 year 1995.
7 What I'm interested in in this document is that this is a report
8 covering also the work of the internal control section, and that is on
9 page 8 in the Croatian version.
10 While we're waiting -- that's page 8. Bottom part, if we can
11 have it enlarged, please.
12 It says here that the internal control section of the special
13 police took part in operational and intelligence preparations of all
14 operations and actions in which members of the special police were
16 Accordingly, it says that good cooperation was in place with
17 intelligence administration of the Main Staff of the Croatian army and
18 the service for the protection of the internal order. The cooperation
19 with MUP in terms of equipment was also good in terms of establishing
20 monitoring centres and things like that. Then it says that there was
21 exchange of information with other services with a view to gaining an
22 insight into the overall situation.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I just point out for the
24 record so that there won't a confusion later on, this is one of the
25 documents that was submitted through the bar table submission last night
1 so there would not be any duplicity in marking exhibit numbers.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I may take it that at least there will be no
3 objection on behalf of the Markac Defence.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: There will be no objection, Your Honour, that's
5 for sure but it's quite hard to, you know, follow up this exchange of.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No one blames you for not having seen that, if it is
7 true what Ms. Mahindaratne says. I have not checked that.
8 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation.
11 Q. Let's go back to this report. I suppose you would agree with the
12 content of this report, as far as internal control section was concerned.
13 Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it's correct. I fully agree.
15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document
16 admitted, but before we move on, I suppose that my learned colleague had
17 also admitted the remaining parts of this report, which are numerical
19 Q. So let us take a look at the part of the document which contains
20 numerical data that is on page 03549942. This is a table depicting the
21 makeup of the special police in 1995.
22 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] That would be on the next page,
23 Mr. Registrar.
24 Q. Mr. Janic, what we see here is a list of special police units
25 that were attached to various police administrations. The last one we
1 see will is the Lucko ATJ. The first column shows us the internal
2 structure numbers. The second column gives us figures in relation to
3 1995. It tells about the respective strengths of all these units back in
4 1995. The next thing that we can see is the ethnic makeup of each of the
5 special police units.
6 If we look at this we see that the internal makeup of the Lucko
7 ATJ went like this: 190 members strength at the moment 75 per cent.
8 What does this mean strength at the moment, since this is a report about
9 1995? Well, I just best allow to you explain this.
10 A. This means that in terms of its internal makeup the unit could
11 have a maximum of 190 members. We're talking about the Lucko ATJ now.
12 But at this point in time it only had 75 actual employees in the unit,
13 police officers. Operation Storm had been concluded and then
14 Operation Flash before so many people were killed and wounded and this
15 affected the makeup of the unit and other units as well.
16 Q. To the best of your recollection how many members of the Lucko
17 ATJ were there in August and September 1995? I'm talking about the time
18 when the search operations were conducted.
19 A. I don't think there were over 50 of them. Later on during the
20 searchs, maybe about 40 members.
21 Q. Thank you. The next page talks about --
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... would you mind
23 if I put a question in relation to the page which is --
24 MR. MIKULICIC: Of course, I don't.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me check whether that is on our screen.
1 Yes. You earlier explained to us that the composition of the
2 special police forces was not determined by anything else than skill
3 and -- nevertheless, it appears from this table that it was an almost
4 mono-ethnic force. Do you -- is that -- do you have an explanation why
5 more than 98 of the force consists of Croats where apparently in
6 recruiting, the ethnicity or the nationality didn't play a role?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have an explanation, as a
8 matter of fact. Special police units are not mobilised. One volunteers
9 to become a member. There are a certain number of volunteer but they
10 must meet certain requirements to become members. Therefore, one reports
11 as a volunteer in order to join a unit like this. If no persons of other
12 ethnicities within Croatia
13 to admit into the special police. So this was the only requirement that
14 was applied. One must submit a written application expressing one's
15 desire to undergo certain tests to see if this person was fit to join one
16 of the special police units.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And what kind of tests were these?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Various kinds of tests. Stamina,
19 durability, running, speed of reaction, marksmanship, martial arts, that
20 sort of thing.
21 JUDGE ORIE: When you were earlier asked whether the ethnic
22 background or the national background of the members played any role, of
23 course I would have expected you to answer that question by saying no, it
24 didn't play a role at all, but we had hardly any applicants from
25 other-than-Croatian background, or those applicants of non-Croatian
1 background didn't pass the tests. I don't know what the case was, but
2 that would have been a complete answer to the question, Mr. Janic. Of
3 course now we see the numbers and I put this question to you, but that
4 would put a better assist to the Chamber that answer than just saying no
5 ethnic or nationalist background didn't play any role.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.
7 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 [Interpretation] Could we please move on to page 03549946, same
10 Q. This is an overview of forms of training for special police
11 members throughout 1995, the various kinds of training that were
12 implemented through 1995.
13 While introducing this subject you told us about the training and
14 education of the special police members and this was a very important
15 segment of their work. I'm looking at this document and I'd like to move
16 on to the last page of this document. This is 948. I'm talking about
17 the last three digits. The last page reads -- right.
18 Throughout 1995 20 courses were organised and held, attended by
19 1134 members of the special police. There were a total of 16 seminars
20 attended by 533 members or employees. Throughout 1995 there were various
21 forms of specialist training. 1667 members of the special police
22 underwent this and about 100 members of the Ministry of Interior special
23 police units from the neighbouring republic of Herceg-Bosna
24 approval by the minister. They all took these courses that were
25 organised, and the seminars.
1 Mr. Janic, is that in keeping with your own recollection about
2 these courses that were organised and held and about attendance, the
3 attendance figures specifically?
4 A. Yes. This tallies with what I know about this.
5 Q. Needless to say, whenever you have something that you feel you
6 need to explain and when you feel that a simple answer would not remain
7 unambiguous, please provide any explanations that you might feel are
9 A. Yes. For example, about 60 per cent of these seminars and
10 courses were run by my own department, organised by my own department.
11 Therefore I was directly in contact with this type of work. I was myself
12 in charge of some of these seminars. I offered certain lectures, for
13 example, and I was involved in organizing these courses. This was part
14 of our work and whenever our men were not busy conducting operations
15 elsewhere we would work on training by organising courses and seminars
16 such as these.
17 Q. Thank you. Can we now please move on to page 953, same document.
18 This is a table training level for special police leaders, and
19 you may have said a thing or two about this already. If we look at this
20 table we can see the training levels for each of the ranks, department
21 chief, inspectors, commanders, assistant commanders and so on and so
22 forth. We can see the training levels pertinent to each of these
23 categories. We see that in some cases we have high level, higher level
24 or mid-level. These are the categories. The lowest training or
25 education level is something that only has a low percentage here.
1 Can you therefore confirm that the specialist training and
2 education levels of special police members was exceptionally high,
3 especially as compared to some other sectors within the Ministry of
5 A. Yes, I am able to confirm that. Within the special police
6 itself, there was a situation. Everyone was encouraged to obtain
7 university degrees and to join schools and get more education because
8 this was needed for some of the posts, for people to apply to some posts.
9 For example, if someone had a lower level of education, that person would
10 be sent back to school, as it were. People were encouraged to go to
11 university and allowances were made for people to be able to go back to
12 studying and this was something that was wholeheartedly encouraged.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please go to page 958
14 of the same document. Thank you.
15 Q. This is another table that we're looking at. These are
16 disciplinary proceedings conducted against special police members
17 throughout 1995.
18 This table was produced in the same way as the previous one. The
19 breakdown is based on the geographical police administrations and there
20 is an special section here about the Lucko ATJ.
21 If we look at the very last column or box, that's what I'm
22 talking about, manning levels at the moment, 2311 employees, and then the
23 percentage is given, as well as the number of disciplinary proceedings
24 that were in progress, those to do with misdemeanours as well as those to
25 do with more serious forms of crime, their total over 1995, 347
1 disciplinary proceedings against active duty members of the special
2 police and that is the left-hand side of the table that we're looking at.
3 The right-hand side of the table is about the reserve, 2444
4 members -- 64 members in 1995, 349 disciplinary complaints were filed
5 against members.
6 Is this consistent with your understanding of the situation back
7 in 1995?
8 A. Yes. This is completely consistent with what I knew the
9 situation to be at the time. There were a number of disciplinary
10 procedures that were in progress. This was a way to maintain and enforce
11 discipline. The disciplinary Court, there was just one for all of the
12 Ministry of Interior. It wasn't just for the special police. It applied
13 to all other police formations as well and the court was independent in
14 its work and it remains independent. For example, you couldn't have
15 someone in the special police who was in a position to affect any action
16 taken by this disciplinary court. It was up to them to start proceedings
17 or to propose measures and then the court would take over and see the
18 actual procedure through.
19 Q. Therefore, the special police department did not have its own
20 disciplinary court, right?
21 A. No, it didn't. There was just one for people from the ministry.
22 That was at our HQ. There were various police administrations, for
23 example the Osljak police administration had their own disciplinary court
24 that was part of the Osljak police administration. The Zagreb court had
25 no power over special police officers from Osljak. They had to be dealt
1 with by the Osljak court that was part the Osijek police administration.
2 Q. All right. This is an disciplinary procedure and this has to do
3 with disciplinary infractions or violations of the rules that pertain to
4 discipline. Can you please explain more about this procedure. What if a
5 member of the special police was found to have committed a crime. This
6 is a more serious form the responsibility, this is not just a
7 disciplinary infraction or violation. What happens then?
8 A. I'm still an active duty police officer and this is the sort of
9 problem that I encounter in my work on a daily basis and the same applied
10 back in 1995 and the same procedure applied. I don't think anything has
11 changed since in terms of procedure. If a member of the special police
12 commits a crime all the general regulations and rules apply to him as to
13 any other citizen. If the crime committed in the line of duty, then this
14 prosecution is also conducted in the line of duty. There is an internal
15 investigation. The member is as a rule suspended pending completion of
16 the proceedings. There is normally a disciplinary procedure that is set
17 in motion. At the same time, however, the investigators start an
18 investigation and then an indictment is issued as soon as there are
19 series of indicia of a crime. This person is investigated and tried just
20 as any other citizen of the Republic of Croatia
21 Q. When you said an investigation is conducted, are you referring to
22 court investigation done by regular courts?
23 A. Yes. I think it was done by regular courts but with the
24 assistance of the crime investigation police. It's not that every court
25 is involved in the whole investigation process. Some parts of the
1 processes are done by the investigating police.
2 Q. After such police -- court investigation there are two options,
3 either to suspend the investigation for the lack of evidence or -- due to
4 other reasons, or the public prosecutor will issue an indictment against
5 certain individuals. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. After issuing an indictment comes a trial before the criminal
8 court. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. If a person is convicted of a crime he is
10 automatically suspended from civil service; but if he is acquitted by the
11 court and if, at that moment, the disciplinary proceedings have been
12 completed and if the decision from the proceedings was that he would be
13 removed from employment, then he is entitled to instigate administrative
14 procedure to be reinstated in his job.
15 If the suspension from job is not part of the conviction then he
16 would be punished by some more lenient sanctions that do not affect his
18 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document to be
19 tendered into evidence.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Previous translation continues] ...
21 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Document number 65 ter 02452.
22 JUDGE ORIE: There 's no objection.
23 Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number D528, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D528 is admitted into evidence.
1 Could I ask one question, Mr. Mikulicic.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: Of course.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We now have a rather detailed view on disciplinary
4 actions taken against the members of the special police. Do you have any
5 impression as to what the numbers are in relation to police
6 investigations which resulted in indictments brought against the members
7 of the special police units?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that information.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please look
11 at document 65 ter 05000.
12 Q. We can see that this document was drawn up by the special police
13 sector on the 11th of January, 1996. It is addressed to Mr. Markac. And
14 it is actually an annual report on the internal control sector work in
16 This document mentions that the internal control sector, during
17 1995, was engaged in actually four segments. So they were involved in
18 intelligence in operational preparations for operations in which special
19 police took part.
20 From your own experience and knowledge, can you tell us in what
21 way, when you went to take part in certain operations, were prepared for
22 that particular preparation? And by that I mean did you -- were you
23 given information about what you can expect on the field, perhaps the
24 number of the enemy troops that you might expect to face, et cetera?
25 A. Before any operation, we had briefings in which we agreed the
1 tactics and how to operate within our area of responsibility. During
2 these briefing sessions or preparatory meetings, I don't remember how we
3 called them exactly but it had a name, when we discussed tactics, always
4 one part of the meeting was dedicated to a presentation by someone from
5 the internal control. He would inform us about the overall intelligence
6 situation and prepare all the commanders in terms of passing on
7 intelligence information about the enemy, their deployment, number of
8 troops, positions, equipment, and all other relevant data that were
9 available. Then they would give us this information.
10 They were also in charge of preparing maps, in which this data
11 were entered so that once we set off, we would have the enemy deployment
12 already in the map. Yes, I can confirm this annual report in that it
13 says that is it exactly what they did and that their role, in all
14 operations, was what is in the army done by the army intelligence
15 service. Essentially this is what they did for us.
16 Q. Thank you for this answer.
17 Can you clarify to us item number 2, where it says that the
18 internal control department took care of security and protection of the
19 special police units.
20 A. Well, I can say that members of this section or department
21 assessed the risks of the facilities in which the unit was billeted.
22 They gathered intelligence information in order to assess the level of
23 safety and security of our positions, where special police members were
24 deployed. This would be briefly the explanation of this particular item.
25 Q. I understand. Item 3: Professional training of members of the
1 internal control and commanders of reconnaissance units.
2 Can you shed some more light on this? What kind of activity this
4 A. All reconnaissance units gathering information and the processing
5 of intelligence was not only reserved from other intelligence services
6 within the Croatian military, the secret service and the rest of it.
7 Also, in each special unit we had our own reconnaissance and intelligence
8 unit which was in charge of gathering directly on the ground information
9 and intelligence about the enemy. And the internal control was in --
10 operationally in charge of running these units and using this data along
11 with other data.
12 Q. I understand. Under item 4 it says that internal control was
13 continuously monitoring interpersonal relations, relations between
14 superiors and within the command structure. And if they would pinpoint
15 any problems they would highlight them.
16 Here there is mention of work discipline and a while ago you told
17 us that the internal control did not conduct any disciplinary proceedings
18 so how are we to understand then this particular task?
19 A. The internal control, in their job description and in practice,
20 what I personally saw on a daily basis, monitored statistical data about
21 breaches of discipline. They were given fortnightly reports from unit
22 commanders and in the part which relates to disciplinary measures and
23 proceedings, they would process these fortnightly or other reports and
24 compile statistical data and analysis to be used by the head of the
25 sector, by me or unit commanders.
1 If in the course of their work the internal control were -- were
2 to learn that someone had breached discipline and the commander failed to
3 undertake any measures, although he knew about it, then through the head
4 of the section, this department will warn the commander that one of his
5 men had breached discipline, but that would also be up to me to do that.
6 If I had had this knowledge it would only be natural for me to inform
7 that somebody had done something and that this person should be punished
8 for that.
9 Q. I understand. If we move now to page 715 of this document, and
10 that's two pages forward. Item 4, in the upper part of the page. Yes,
11 that's right.
12 Here we see that the internal control continuously monitored the
13 work of special police and the system of information distribution.
14 Therefore, they had constant insight into the situation in units in order
15 to undertake preventative actions. The department highlighted the floors
16 in the work, the relations between officers, disciplinary problems. They
17 monitored how the structure was developing and dealt with other services
18 in terms of observing how tasks are being carried out.
19 Mr. Janic, can you give us any comment on this part of the report
20 on the work of the internal control? Is it consistent with what you
21 remember and know?
22 A. Yes. This is exactly what this department did, among other
23 things. If, in the course of their work, they received information about
24 someone committing something, they would send this information through
25 their own channels to the unit commander instructing him to undertake
1 certain disciplinary procedure, and I think that is the same to what I
2 said before.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can I have this document admitted
5 into evidence and that's 65 ter 05000.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D529.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D529 is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the recently
11 admitted document, P587, please. That's 65 ter 03342. This is in case
12 it doesn't have designation P.
13 Q. A short while ago, Mr. Janic, you had an opportunity to see this
14 order dated 15 November 1995
15 administrations, to the head of the special police sector, to the
16 commander of the Lucko anti-terrorist unit and to the commander of the
17 air force unit.
18 So this order was issued by Mr. Markac, and it refers to the
19 issue of discipline that you so extensively spoke about.
20 Can you confirm that this order reflects also what you said, that
21 commanders of units were authorised to impose discipline?
22 A. Yes. They were independent in their work, and they were
23 responsible for imposing discipline and if there was a breach of
24 discipline, they were responsible for instituting disciplinary procedure.
25 This is what they were authorised for.
1 Q. I'm interested in another aspect of this document. It was issued
2 by the special police sector. However, if we look into the introductory
3 part of this which says: "Upon completion of an analysis of the work and
4 discipline with the organisational units of the Ministry of Interior of
5 the Republic of Croatia
6 Mr. Ivan Jarnjak, and in view of a need to eliminate the irregularities
7 observed in operation, conduct of the members of active and reserve units
8 of the special police, I hereby issue the following order."
9 Mr. Janic, can you confirm that this order was sent both to the
10 special police but also to other sectors of the MUP?
11 A. Absolutely. This was dealt with at --
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. There is no
13 indication here that it has gone to any other units. It is to the
14 special police units from -- on the basis of this order.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It reads all police administration chiefs which --
16 and then to be handed over to specialised police units, so therefore at
17 least was not directly addressed to the special police units.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: Or exclusively.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Or -- yes, it doesn't say that -- with whom it had
20 to be shared apart from these specialised police units. But it seems to
21 be a minor issue.
22 Mr. Misetic, do you have a major issue?
23 MR. MISETIC: I don't think it is major but it is something I
24 just wanted to alert the Trial Chamber to, during the break we're having
25 communications with the Prosecution about the translation of one word in
1 that paragraph. That relates to in the original the translation of the
2 phrase [B/C/S spoken], which has been translated here as "in operation"
3 which is a translation that we believe leads to confusion. We believe
4 that the proper translation should be "in the work and conduct," and that
5 actually was a subject of come confusion between the Prosecution and the
6 Defence and we'll probably seek a clarification of the translation. Just
7 so that the record is complete, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the parties together could find the
9 resources which finally will lead to the ultimate translation of this
11 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 Mr. Mikulicic.
14 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Janic, continue with what you were
16 explaining. You said that this order actually was generated at the
17 meeting of the collegium of ministers.
18 A. The decisions taken at the collegium refer to all the sectors of
19 the ministry. At the time, in 1995, there were three sectors. That was
20 regular police, that was crime police, and that was special police and
21 these orders inadvertently --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
23 A. -- invariably referred to all three segments.
24 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Does this conclusion of yours stem from how this letter was
1 addressed? It says all police administrations.
2 A. Yes. The head was -- the head was --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter kindly asks the witness to repeat
4 his last answer.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- could you please repeat your last
6 answer, which was not caught by the interpreters.
7 You said "the head was ..."
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed. I said that the chief of
9 the police administration was also the head of his special unit but also
10 to all other police units within his administration including the crime
11 police and the regular police.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Now let's see how discipline worked in practice.
15 Next up is a 65 ter document 05225.
16 This is a document dated October 1995. It was issued by
17 Mr. Markac, and it was sent to the head of the Zadar and Knin police
18 administration. It says that it must be submitted to the special police
19 unit commander, the unit attached to that police administration, the
20 purpose of this document being verification of certain data. It say that
21 an Official Note reached the police administration from the Gracac police
22 branch and the note states that on the 17th of September, 1995 four
23 special police members were observed driving in a vehicle with certain
24 licence plates and they were spotted moving away from a family home that
25 was set fire to, as well as the shed next to it with haystacks in it.
1 The registration plates are known to the Zadar-Knin police
2 administration and that is why a check is requested.
3 Based on your recollection, was this one of the ways in which, in
4 practical terms, issues regarding discipline were dealt with within the
5 special police sector?
6 A. Yes. The general applied rigorous standards in this respect. It
7 is quite obvious that the special police unit commander did not have this
8 note from the Gracac police station. This is how the system worked. The
9 information first got to the special police sector and then the special
10 police sector forwards this in such a way to the commander of that
11 special police unit and then he further processed this, given his power
12 to first establish the facts and then if the facts show that someone did
13 something or other, what follows next is disciplinary steps that are
15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can I have a number for this
16 document, please.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President, just for the
18 record again this is one of the documents that was tendered in the bar
19 table submission last night. For the record, it is document number 12 on
20 the list, Mr. President, so that there won't be any confusion at the end
21 of these proceedings if there is time I will indicate what documents have
22 been tendered into evidence today from that list.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you then remove that from the list or mark
24 them on the list in such a way that Mr. Registrar does not assign
25 duplicate numbers to the same document.
1 Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D530.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D530 is admitted into evidence.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 65 ter
5 document 05227.
6 Q. This is a report produced by the Zadar and Knin police
7 administration, the special police unit specifically. The date is 4
8 October 1995
9 The person issuing the document is the special police unit
10 commander, Mr. Vrsalje [phoen]. The report talks about the fact that the
11 report itself is a result of the request that we looked at a while ago,
12 the request made by the special police sector, specifically Mr. Markac,
13 and it says that the check was conducted and that it was established
14 beyond reasonable doubt that the arsonists in the village of Potkorina
15 unknown house number, was a man named Ivan Kovac, a member of the special
16 police unit of the Zadar and Knin police administration.
17 The document goes on to describe what exactly was established.
18 It was established that he was together with another three members of the
19 special police. They drove over to that village where he set fire to
20 this building. The other three members were not involved and he was the
21 only one who was now facing disciplinary measures. He was dismissed from
22 his post as special police group leader. And 10 percent of his next
23 salary was deducted. There was a mitigating circumstance relating to the
24 perpetrator. He had a clear police record and his performance had, up to
25 that point, been impeccable.
1 Mr. Janic, isn't this exactly along the same lines with what you
2 were telling us the special police unit members were authorised to impose
3 discipline in these units?
4 A. Yes, that's precisely what this confirms. They initiated their
5 own disciplinary procedures. There were certain kinds of procedures
6 where they had the power to take decisions and impose punishment but that
7 was in relation to certain types of infractions and sometimes they would
8 initiate proceedings and then a court would take over and potentially
9 prosecute or try the case.
10 Q. This, in a way, anticipate my next question. We're looking here
11 at a crime, an offence, which at least at first sight bears the hallmarks
12 of a crime because there is property destroyed and the safety of persons
13 is potentially jeopardised.
14 I'm not sure if you know about the specific case, but was it
15 possible to have a disciplinary procedure and a criminal complaint filed
16 with the state prosecutor in parallel and then there is an independent
17 procedure, criminal procedure that is underway which does not in any way
18 depend on the disciplinary procedure that is in progress?
19 A. Yes, that's right, the two are not necessarily related. In this
20 case I'm not sure what the police did or did not do, but they could have
21 investigated this and they could have filed a criminal complaint. And
22 this had nothing to do with the commander's decision to filing a
23 complaint and this had nothing to do with a potential disciplinary
24 procedure. The two procedures are not necessarily related. They become
25 related if there is a criminal complaint and there has not yet been a
1 disciplinary procedure so if a criminal complaint is filed and then the
2 disciplinary complaint was not filed, then once a criminal procedure is
3 started, you must have a disciplinary complaint to be able to launch a
4 criminal procedure.
5 Q. Thank you very much for this explanation.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can I have a number for this
7 document, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President in fact, this is
10 also another document that was submitted. It looks like Mr. Mikulicic
11 and I are both on the same page.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You seem to have a shared, a common interest in
13 certain matters.
14 Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D531.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. D531 is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one question to clarify.
19 Mr. Janic, you -- you said several times a criminal complaint
20 could have been filed. What was the determining factor on whether --
21 where apparently a crime had been committed, whether or not a criminal
22 complaint is filed? This is complaint by the victim or is it a complaint
23 by the police officers investigating the matter?
24 Could you tell us what would trigger the filing of a criminal
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to explain.
2 The document came from the Gracac police station. It has its own
3 head. They have their own crime police units, civilian police and so on
4 and so forth. They were entirely autonomous, independent, and it was up
5 to them to judge the gravity of a crime and perhaps file a criminal
6 report. Based on their assessment of the crime itself, they sent a note
7 to the special police sector, but this has nothing to do with the fact
8 that they may or may not have decided to go ahead with this. If they had
9 any evidence, if they were any indicia of a crime being committed, they
10 could have filed a criminal report to the appropriate court within their
11 own area. This is what would have triggered criminal proceedings. And
12 this was down to the Gracac police station.
13 What steps they took in this particular case is not something
14 that I can tell you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.
16 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you.
17 [Interpretation] Can we please have 3D00-1467.
18 Q. As we're waiting for the document to come up, let me ask you
19 this. Earlier on we talked about the fact that within the special police
20 sector there was training, specialised training, courses and so on and so
21 forth. This is a document that dates back to the beginning of 1995. It
22 is addressed to Mr. Markac. The document contains information about the
23 types of teaching and courses that were organised.
24 If you look at page 14, among other things of this document, you
25 see Roman numeral XI, theory and specialised subject matter, a total of
1 20 teaching hours. It says that issues to do with international law of
2 war were studied. This is something that you have already confirmed.
3 Can you now again confirm that this was the case in the special police
4 sector also on the eve of Operation Storm, in 1995?
5 A. Yes, I'm in a position to confirm that. Each time there was a
6 seminar or a course that was organised and held, unless it was a
7 specialist course for divers or some such, but the one I'm looking at
8 right now, this was a seminar for special police leaders. This was part
9 of the teaching programme, international law of war, that was one of the
10 topics tackled. This was something that we studied at the time since we
11 were at war but even before then we knew that Croatia was occupied to a
12 large extent, Croatia
13 knew that, it was only logical that we should get our people to
14 understand more and familiarize themselves with the rules and provisions
15 of international law of war.
16 Q. If we move on to page 15, that's the next page, you said Croatia
17 was at war and more operations were expected. Page 15 Roman numeral XII,
18 chapter 12.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I look at the
20 whole of the document as it was uploaded in e-court and I find in English
21 a three-page document.
22 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- which causes my some problems to get to page 15.
24 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, it is my mistake, Your Honour. Page 15
25 hasn't been translated but it's -- we have only partial translation but
1 for these purposes it is the only, in fact, couple of words in it that
2 were deleted for the purposes of the record and then we will translate it
3 as soon as possible.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because admission of course depends on the
5 availability of an English translation, although we sometimes do admit
6 but then require to report when the English translation is --
7 MR. MIKULICIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...I'm aware of it, Your
8 Honour. Thank you very much for --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- uploaded.
10 MR. MIKULICIC:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Janic, we're looking at Roman numeral XII,
12 chapter 12, ten teaching hours, Croatian army, structure and purpose of
13 the Croatian army, the use of its arms and branches and the command
14 system that was in place. Is this along the same lines as what you have
15 been telling about Croatia
16 were imminent and this was about the whole system under which the
17 Croatian army worked, right?
18 A. Yes. The operations carried out up until that point and those
19 still in the pipelines, as it were, all of that was under the guidance of
20 the Croatian army. We were all part of these military operations and we
21 all worked together. Needless to say, we had to know about the command
22 system, the communications system, all the insignias and all call signs
23 and everything else that had to do with the Croatia army in order to
24 enable us to work together and be involved in those operations together.
25 If we had not been aware of all these, we would not have been able to
1 work with them and cooperate in conducting these operations.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I move that this document be
3 tendered into evidence without this last section. I move that the three
4 existing pages or, rather the three pages for which a translation exists
5 be admitted as an exhibit.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I just point out there were
10 several questions asked based on pages which is not available and that
11 pending translation I have no objection to the entire document being
12 tendered into evidence so that we have the benefit of the entire
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D532.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D532 is admitted into evidence.
18 Mr. Mikulicic, you are instructed to inform Ms. Mahindaratne as
19 soon as the complete translation has been uploaded.
20 Ms. Mahindaratne, on from that moment you have another two days
21 to inform whether your position, that is there is no objection against
22 admission, stands or is changed.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, I'm looking at the clock. I don't know
1 whether it is it wise to proceed at this moment.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: I have only one document and I will be finished
3 with this theme.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then perhaps we finish that first. If you take
5 that one document.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay.
7 [Interpretation] 65 ter document 03055.
8 Q. Mr. Janic, the special police members who were involved in these
9 operations together with the Croatian army, the operations launched to
10 liberate the occupied areas of the Republic of Croatia
11 based on your evidence that they were familiar with international law of
12 war, that they were taught about that too.
13 You see something on the screen now. This is it the rules of
14 behaviour for soldiers. Can you confirm that this was a booklet that was
15 distributed to soldiers within the special police sector.
16 A. Yes, I'm in a position to confirm that. This booklet was used in
17 training but also on the eve of these operations each member of the
18 special police received a copy and each member had the responsibility of
19 familiarizing themselves with this. Each member had this booklet in
20 their possession.
21 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this admitted
22 into evidence, this document, and after that, I think this would be the
23 right time for a break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President. I don't know
1 whether -- I see only the cover page. I presume the entire booklet is
2 being tendered into evidence and there will be a translation provided.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: I believe there must be a translation because
4 this is an 65 ter document rendered by the OTP.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have the advantage of --
6 MR. MIKULICIC: I must admit -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
7 translation but --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- technical matters. I see that is in the original
9 B/C/S, it's a 46-page document, and in the source attachments field, I
10 only see the original where usually if there is a translation, it appears
11 there in the extra fields. It gives an English ERN number. And it says
12 that there is a translation, translation language English. English ERN
13 ET-0206-6448 and then 0206-6449, which suggests that the 46 pages in
14 B/C/S have been translated in one page of English, which would come as a
15 surprise to me.
16 Mr. Registrar, did I misinterpret the --
17 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honour, that's correct. And actually
18 the English translation is on the screen right now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the screen right now. Let's have a look.
20 Yes, that confirms that it is one page of an unrevised
22 If I'm able, within 30 seconds, to have all the details available
23 what is in the system, then I expect the parties to make themselves so
24 much acquainted with the system that they don't have to say well, it is a
25 65 ter number, so there should be a translation, just check and verify
1 that, I mean, if need be, together with your case managers. In this
2 respect I have no case manager to assist me at this moment. I now also
3 see that we have the original I saw earlier, the -- on the screen, the
4 B/C/S. I saw two different -- from what I understand. I saw one with a
5 red cross but I earlier saw one or perhaps did not see the whole -- no, I
6 saw something different.
7 MR. MIKULICIC: In fact --
8 JUDGE ORIE: We have two different versions at least with the
9 same title and I'm now just looking at two screens somewhere in front of
10 me, one with a picture, the other one with the Red Cross emblem. It
11 might be the another page of the same document.
12 Mr. Mikulicic, you are instructed to take care that we have a
13 translation of this document uploaded into e-court.
14 Meanwhile, Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D533.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D533 is admitted into evidence with the same proviso
17 that you should inform Ms. Mahindaratne once a translation has been
18 uploaded, and Ms. Mahindaratne, then you also have two days to explain
19 your position, although I must admit that you have not taken a position
20 yet, so you couldn't even change it. You only mentioned that you were
21 not aware of an English translation.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is so, Mr. President. But this document
23 does not seem to be contentious document. I will not object for its
24 admission, but please I would be grateful if the Defence could provide a
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I can now then definitely say that you have two
2 days once you have received the translation.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, if I may, if I may.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. MIKULICIC: This is a 65 ter document. Well, that is the
6 document produced by the OTP so we supposed that there --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. MIKULICIC: -- is translation. We are not supposed to add
9 the translation to the OTP documents.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No, you are perfectly right. I misunderstood as a
11 matter of fact --
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- the -- what you said when you said it's a 65 ter
15 MR. MIKULICIC: The prior document was another story. That
16 was --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: -- how it --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes sometimes the --
20 So, therefore, Ms. Mahindaratne, you have a task.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, as I understand the system, and
22 I don't want to take time over this issue any way, but when it comes to
23 large documents we do not request for the entire document to be
24 translated but since the Defence is tendering this document into evidence
25 I believe it would be appropriate for the Defence to request for --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let me stop this discussion at this moment
2 here. Because this is really an issue who should ask CLSS to translate
3 or not. These are the kind of subjects I'm always prepared to discuss
4 with the parties at 7.00 in the morning or 10.00 at night.
5 MR. MIKULICIC: And weekends.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, weekends are fine. Private life is -- although
7 not always --
8 MR. MIKULICIC: But, Your Honour --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- but that's --
10 MR. MIKULICIC: -- there are a lot of pictures in this document
11 so it would not be hard to translate it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now one question, I saw the Red Cross emblem
13 on one of them. It was -- was there ever published by the Red Cross
14 because then there might be an English version of the same document
15 available. I don't know. But it is just --
16 MR. TIEGER: Just a note, Your Honour, the emblem is on both the
17 second -- it's on the second page behind the document you're looking at
18 right now. So it -- I don't think it refers to two separate documents
19 but this -- this picture appears to be an overlay over the Red Cross
20 emblem that you saw before, for whatever that is worth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it is a Red Cross document there is at
22 least a chance that it exists also in English.
23 You've got 20 minutes to see whether you can resolve this matter.
24 We resume at 1.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, you may proceed.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 [Interpretation] If we can please have document number 65 ter
6 Q. What we are about to see on the screen, Mr. Janic, is the minutes
7 of the meeting between the president of the Republic of Croatia
8 Mr. Franjo Tudjman, and a delegation of the military, held on the 17th
9 July 1995 on Brioni.
10 General Markac was also present at this meeting, and here I would
11 like to refer you to page 48 of this record. This is ERN page 01324928.
12 Of course, we are not going to analyse the entire record of this
13 meeting, but we shall rather focus on the subject that is of interest to
14 us at this point, and that is the duties and the tasks and the work of
15 special police.
16 At the meeting, Mr. Markac took to the floor, and, in his
17 address, Mr. Markac warned and I -- oh, I apologise, I gave you a wrong
18 page. And we'll go back to this one later.
19 But now I'd like to see page 1329 --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number of
21 the page.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the number.
23 MR. MIKULICIC: This is the page 27 of the transcript, and the
24 ERN number is 01324961. That's the one.
25 Q. [Interpretation] So Mr. Markac took to the floor here and
1 addressed the president of the republic about the use and the purpose of
2 special purpose units. And he said that there should be a tactical
3 reserve of rapid action special forces which, based on good assessment
4 and good use by the staff, and you can find this on the next page, page
5 28, can you be used in any part of the territory of the Republic of
7 These forces, continues Mr. Markac, have been involved in a
8 number of major military operations and have demonstrated that they were
9 prepared and mobile and most importantly capable within very short period
10 of time, six to eight hours, to have all their forces ready and deployed
11 in the expected areas.
12 At the end of his address, which is on page 30, ERN number
13 01324964, Mr. Markac concluded by saying: "Mr. President," this is to
14 President Tudjman, "I estimate that we are ready to carry out any task
15 but I would like to draw your attention to the fact that we have to be
16 given a specific task."
17 Mr. Janic, according to your understanding and knowledge can you
18 explain to us how you in the special police interpreted this specific or
19 this special purpose task?
20 A. The special purpose task would mean that there are some specific
21 features in terms of the capabilities of special police which is an
22 outcome of a long-term training, education, and experience acquired in
23 the previous operations. The special police had the status of a firm and
24 elite unit, capable of carrying out the most difficult tasks under the
25 most difficult circumstances. For instance, in mountains, in forbidden
1 terrain, in winter time. That is to say, in the conditions in which
2 other military units were not able to move around large forces. Under
3 such circumstances, through their training and through their way of work,
4 the special police had demonstrated and here they say that they are ready
5 to take on such special purpose tasks in future as well. And this is
6 exactly what happened later in the Storm.
7 So by operating in difficult conditions, in mountainous areas,
8 et cetera, these operations could have only be done by elite units,
9 special units like ours.
10 Q. If we now move to page 48 of this record; this is ERN number
11 01324982, this is part of President Tudjman's speech, and we see that
12 this is what he says here by referring to the address of General Markac:
13 "General Markac has mentioned the problem of special forces of
14 the internal affairs. When there were no other legal or constitutional
15 possibilities, as you know, we have started forming the Croatian army
16 from among the ranks of the ministry and this particularly refers to
17 special internal affairs forces who played a pivotal role in all the
18 operations that we had so far. However, we also have to be realistic
19 about this. We do not need to make a special or separate parallel army
20 out of these special units. Therefore they should maintain the features
21 that they have had, since the liberation until the war in Croatia
23 they should remain as they are, and the task given to them would be such
24 that would be part of joint operations that can be carried out and they
25 can easily be carried out or even better by them than by some other
2 Mr. Janic, would you agree with me from these quotations it turns
3 out that at the very top government level, and I'm referring to
4 President Tudjman and the ministers present there, in a certain way it
5 has been established how special police should look like and how it
6 should work within the ministry as unit dedicated to special tasks.
7 A. Yes, one can say that. The state leadership with
8 President Tudjman at its helm had information about the special police.
9 They recognise the achievements we made during the war and they
10 appreciate our contribution to the war of independence. Their assessment
11 was that, since full liberation of Croatia was being planned, this
12 demonstrates that within these operations, particularly in view of the
13 skill and expertise of the special police, they were counted upon as a
14 very serious unit intended for special purpose tasks.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. MIKULICIC: Can we please have a number for this document.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number D534, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D534 is admitted into evidence.
21 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we have now 65 ter document
22 number 04484.
23 Q. Before we discuss this document, Mr. Janic, let us move to
24 another subject. On the eve of Operation Storm, I would like to discuss
25 the situation in Velebit with respect to special police units.
1 Can you please tell us, in a few sentences, and bearing in mind
2 the time that we have available, what the task of special police were --
3 was in Velebit, not only at that time but also two or three years before?
4 A. I'll try to be brief. You know that the occupied territories
5 were very close to the shoreline. There was only one road connecting
6 northern parts of Croatia
7 and it ran next to the Mount Velebit
8 prospect this road from the attacks by Serbs across Mount Velebit
9 were capable of attacking it. In view of the specific features of these
10 mountains and very hard conditions of operating in a mountainous area,
11 this task was assigned to special police. In 1992 it covered the area
12 from Gospic to southern slope of Velebit. Our task was to defend the
13 only road connecting the northern and southern Croatia from a possible --
14 from a possibility of its being cut off. From 1992, positions were taken
15 up on Velebit. The code-name was Poskok 1, later it was renamed Poskok
16 2. The special police held the defence line from northern to southern
17 Velebit and this line with some changes following the Maslenica
18 operation, remained the same after Operation Storm. And that was the
19 point of departure for special police in Operation Storm.
20 So this is what we did on Mount Velebit
21 Q. Can you tell us where the special police was based immediately
22 before Operation Storm and throughout that period? I'm referring to the
23 command headquarters.
24 A. The command headquarters of special police on Mount Velebit
25 as follows. The main logistical base was in a place --
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get name of place.
2 A. -- directly on the sea shore. I think in the place called
3 Libinje on Velebit was a forward command post which commanded the special
4 police forces on Velebit.
5 Q. Can you describe this geographical area? Is this a populated
6 area? Can you just illustrate what we are talking about?
7 A. Velebit is the highest mountain in Croatia. It is very harsh.
8 The conditions for life are very difficult there. There is no human
9 population there. It is particularly difficult in winter time because
10 winters are long. There is lots of snow and the weather is -- conditions
11 are difficult. Staying on Velebit throughout these years, the special
12 police gained invaluable experience in operating in difficult mountainous
13 areas as well as in the defending or holding a defence line. So this
14 experience of two or three years of defending Velebit was the basis in
15 tactical terms for later successes achieved in Operation Storm which
17 Q. How did you solve logistical problems, food supplies, weapons,
18 materiel and everything else that is required for having a unit operating
19 and functioning normally?
20 A. We had our own logistical service and base on Mount Velebit
21 the entire MUP logistical service relied on it, starting from equipment,
22 procurement department, financial and materiel procurement department.
23 We had their assistance in that domain. Supplies were initially provided
24 in a way by using horses as the most simple and most practical means of
25 transportation along mountainous paths. We had logistical teams
1 providing and transferring food and equipment. However, under harsh
2 weather conditions we could only use horses or pack animals for providing
3 supplies to the units on the ground.
4 Q. So if I understood you properly, the special police units, in
5 Velebit, spent quite a long time before Operation Storm. How long?
6 A. Are you meaning -- are you referring to the combat deployment or
8 Q. Preparations.
9 A. During July, as far as I know, and I was personally there, we
10 thought that this was going to be real action which later became Storm.
11 It was around -- on or around 29th of July. We were on Velebit and
12 within our area of responsibility we were given the objectives of the
13 operation, which were similar or identical to those of Operation Storm.
14 After two
15 recalled. I don't know whether this was treated as an exercise or
16 whatever, but one could say that that was a dress rehearsal for
17 Operation Storm.
18 After that, we had a detailed analysis of this so-called action
19 that was aborted because at that time, there were more than 2.000 men in
20 position on Velebit, including artillery and equipment, as if it were a
21 real operation, and we learned some lessons and drew some conclusions
22 with regard to communications and tactical terms and this was applicable
23 and applied later in the actual Operation Storm.
24 Q. If we can turn to next page of the document on the screen. Let
25 me draw your attention to the fact that the title of this document is
1 handwritten and it says that this is an order issued to General Mladen
2 Markac for Operation Storm. This is a document dated 26th June 1995 and
3 I assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this is it precisely what you
4 just told us about a minute ago. This is a document issued by the
5 Main Staff of the Croatian army.
6 At the time the chief of the Main Staff of the Croatian army was
7 General Janko Bobetko and it was submitted to the commander of the
8 special units of the MUP, Colonel General Mladen Markac.
9 So, according to this document an order is being given to the
10 special forces of the Ministry of Interior to -- from the operational
11 base in Velebit and what follows are the names and locations which later
12 we're going to see in the map. An order is given to launch attacks along
13 certain axis in order to capture Mali Golic, Sveti Rok, Gracac and
14 Prezid. It is specifically said that they need to cut off the road
15 leading from Gospic to Gracac, in the section between Sveti Rok and
16 Stikada, that they need to capture a radio relay transmitter at Celavac,
17 that they need to place under their supervision the pass at Prezid and to
18 link up with the forces of the military district of Split and place under
19 surveillance and supervision road Jasanica, [unintelligible], Prezid and
20 Vusic [phoen].
21 The next page of this order, could you please turn the page chief
22 Bobetko issues the following order. The operation is to be carried out
23 in two stages over a total of three days. Then there is a detailed
24 description of what stage 1 and stage 2 respectively would comprise.
25 If you look at item 3, it says that all the remaining forces
1 should perform active defence. If there is a favourable tactical
2 situation that arises, there should be attacks as well in order to pose a
3 threat to the Medak-Sveti Rok road. It also says there should be
4 coordination the district area -- recruitment area commander in Split
5 people in Zagreb
6 police forces must be ready by the 29th of June at 5.00. The order is
7 forwarded also to the commanders of the Split and Gospic recruitment
9 This is order that brought you and another 2.000 special police
10 members to Velebit early in June. An operation was expected, which never
11 got off the ground. You were then withdrawn from Velebit, right?
12 A. Right. I do apologise. I was wrong by about a month a while ago
13 as I was speaking. I was talking about July and it was actually June. I
14 would like to correct that. Yes, this was the order for that particular
15 operation which was never carried out. We were convinced that we would
16 be launching this operation. We were perfectly ready on the day and by
17 the hour and we had prepared well for all these tasks specified here. We
18 were fully ready to perform this operation.
19 Q. I suppose you have noticed this, too and I think everybody else
20 in this courtroom has noticed, there is no explicit mention of the word
21 Storm or Operation Storm in this order is there?
22 A. No, there is none.
23 Q. I move that this document be admitted into evidence.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number D535, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D535 is admitted into evidence.
3 Could I put one question to you, Mr. Janic. What we see here is
4 that staff general Janko Bobetko is giving orders, he is an army
5 authority, he is giving orders to Mr. Markac who is in the Ministry of
6 Interior. Not a request. It is an order with quite some operational
7 details; what to do, when to do it, and what order to do it.
8 Could you explain how a military commander would give orders to a
9 police commander how to deploy his forces and what they should do?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.
11 The special police at the time was part of the armed forces of
12 the Republic of Croatia
13 operations. All orders for military operations were issued to everyone
14 by the Chief of Staff, head of the Main Staff of the Croatian army. I'm
15 sure the minister would approve that sort of thing previously. I don't
16 quite remember, but all war operations were run from a war centre, from a
17 military centre. Each of the orders was given by a commander and that
18 applies to this one as well.
19 We were but a component of our armed forces. We were police, but
20 at this point in time we were also part of the armed forces.
21 MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ... this theme a
22 little bit later. This is my intention.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then I will wait and see. It came into my mind and
24 sometimes but putting a question you can also read my mind, which may
25 sometimes be of advantage to counsel for whatever party.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes. Thank you.
3 [Interpretation] Can we please have 3D00-1421.
4 Q. Mr. Janic, you say that you were at the ready but were then
5 withdrawn from Velebit. What you have in front of you is a document is
6 produced by the Main Staff of the Croatian army dated the 29th June,
7 three days after the previous document. This one, too, was issued by the
8 head of the Main Staff Janko Bobetko. It was addressed to Mr. Markac.
9 It reads: "Due to the newly arisen situation, an increased number of the
10 MUP Special Units engaged pursuant to my order," and then we have the
11 number and the date, "shall immediately be withdrawn back to base."
12 This was immediately forwarded to the Split recruitment area
13 commander and that of Gospic. Does this correspond with the situation
14 you came across on the ground?
15 A. Yes, that is precisely what happened. There was a withdrawal.
16 Q. All right. So you withdrew. Can you tell us what exactly
17 happened after that, or, rather, can we please have a number for this
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D536.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D536 is admitted into evidence. You put the
23 question to the witness and then you said or rather let's have a number.
24 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes. No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: What --
1 MR. MIKULICIC: Not rather. I forgot the --
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the transcript says.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: Sorry for the confusion.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Following this decision by General Bobetko
6 concerning the withdrawal of forces from Velebit you withdrew. What
7 happened now. We are now in early July 1995.
8 A. All the units went back to their own police administration areas
9 except for those who were still watching the defence lines along Velebit.
10 Then there was some preparations that were carried out. It was clear
11 that an operation was imminent. There was some tactical preparations.
12 There were parts of Velebit that were reconnoitred by the reconnaissance
13 operative groups. They carried out reconnaissance in the area, they
14 gathered intelligence on the enemy forces that there were and their
15 positions. We scouted the enemy lines. We gathered intelligence, we
16 drew up anlayses, and the operation was in the pipeline. It was being
18 Q. You say the operation involved the presence of over 2.000 special
19 unit members on Velebit. How did this group coming together? How was it
20 put together?
21 A. We called them collective forces or special purpose forces. That
22 would be military jargon for that, the kind they use today. They would
23 stay in their own police administration areas going about their daily
24 tasks but whenever it was necessary, and this was one such situation,
25 there would be an assessment as to how many men would be needed to
1 perform a certain operation and then the special police sector in a
2 situation like this based on such an assessment would call up a number of
3 units, a number of men, 3.000 if that's what they thought they needed,
4 then 3.000 would be called up, you know, 15 units each comprising 150 or
5 200 people. At this point in time we had these groups that were put
6 together under a single command and there was only one purpose to their
7 work. They would carry out a couple of tasks that were provisional
8 tasks, and as soon as these tasks were completed, the special purpose
9 forces or groups would be dissolved and each of the original units would
10 say go back to their own respective police administration areas and they
11 would go back to their daily work.
12 Q. All right. Just to make sure that my understanding is correct.
13 There were a total of 19 police administrations there, part of which were
14 also the special police units and the Lucko ATJ. A certain number of men
15 were called up who then set up this group, collective force group, if I
16 may call it that, and this went on operating as an independent group and
17 it had a particular mission or objective, right?
18 A. Yes. That's right.
19 Q. All right. So once a group like that was formed, under whose
20 command within the special police sector were they or was it?
21 A. They were under the operative command of the chief of the special
22 police sector. Of course if you look at the chain of command there is
23 also General Markac [Realtime transcript read in error "Cermak"], the
24 number one man of the special police units. But in an operative sense in
25 terms of control, this was something for the chief of the special police
1 sector. He was in charge.
2 Q. Therefore, not all special police unit members were part of this
3 collective group, as it were. Some of them remained with their original
4 police administrations, didn't they? Under whose command were those
5 police members?
6 A. As long as they stayed back within their own police
7 administrations, they would be under the command of their own chief, the
8 chief of their police administration. Not everyone was called up to be
9 part of these collective groups as it were, because we were still holding
10 positions at the time down in Croatian south around Prevlaka, the
11 Prevlaka isthmus, and we had some forces in Western Slavonia after
12 Operation Flash. Therefore, it wasn't possible to physically assemble
13 all of them.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the question -- there are three
16 questions there. Mr. Mikulicic says therefore not all special police
17 unit members were part of this collective group, as it were, some of them
18 remained with their original police administration didn't they, question,
19 but, and then goes on to say under whose command were those police
21 So there are two questions there which presupposes --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the witness, of course, created the
23 order that was lost a bit in the question. He said as long as they
24 stayed back with their own police administration. So the slight disorder
25 in the question was then corrected by the witness.
1 Is there anything else, Ms. Mahindaratne?
2 MR. MIKULICIC: In fact, I don't understand what is your concern,
3 Ms. Mahindaratne.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, my concern was that the witness
6 had not been given the opportunity to answer. In fact, there was a
7 separate -- it was a separate collective and I think the words were -- I
8 lost it here. Those police units that were attached to the police
9 administration were in fact stood out separate from the police sector.
10 That --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That, I had no difficulties in understanding
12 the question and apparently I take it from the answer that the witness
13 had no problem either. Although there could be some criticism on the
14 question because it is unclear what police members were actually manned,
15 the ones who stayed behind or the ones who were not staying behind. But
16 the witness clarified the issue perfectly.
17 But, Mr. Cayley, you might be of a different --
18 MR. CAYLEY: No, Your Honour, I got no comment on this. There's
19 a mistake in the transcript.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. CAYLEY: Page 93, line 5 it says General Cermak, and the
22 witness said General Markac.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I have to get the transcript.
24 MR. MIKULICIC: That is of course reason for concern, if I may
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that. Let me just check again.
2 93, line 5.
3 I re-read it. I don't know whether it is a translation or -- I
4 can't say. I will -- Mr. Janic, your answer -- an answer you gave was
5 that -- and it was about the command over the group like the one formed
6 within the special police sector, you said they were under the operative
7 command of the chief of the special police sector.
8 Of course, if you look at the chain of command there is also
9 general, and then my recollection tells me that you said Markac and not
10 as it appears on the transcript, Cermak. Is that correctly understood?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour, General
12 Markac. I never mentioned General Cermak.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. MIKULICIC: May I proceed, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may. However, I would need three minutes
16 to read a decision, so if you would -- you have three minutes left now.
17 MR. MIKULICIC: Well, then I will put just one or two questions.
18 Q. [Interpretation] I assume that much is clear. When special
19 police are within their own police administration area, their work is
20 bankrolled by their administration?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could both of the witness's
22 microphones be switched on. We can't hear him. Thank you.
23 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
24 A. May I repeat this. Each of the special units are part of some
25 police administration, rather they have an annual budget all of their
1 logistics and all of their materials, necessities were bank rolled by
2 that police administration.
3 Q. Nevertheless when these collective forces are set up, how does
4 the financing aspect work for these collective forces? Do they have a
5 budget of their own?
6 A. When that is the case, these forces don't really have their own
7 budget, but the finance administration which is part of the Ministry of
8 the Interior then looks after any logistical needs that these collective
9 forces might have. They use our services and we physically supply to
10 them the material and foodstuffs. But we didn't have our own budget. It
11 was the Ministry of Interior through their financial sector that provided
12 everything that we needed for as long as we were part of these collective
14 Q. So it's --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Can counsel please repeat the question. The
16 interpreter did not understand the syntax, thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the question because the
18 interpreter it difficulties in following you.
19 MR. MIKULICIC: I see that.
20 Q. [Interpretation] My question was this: We have a situation when
21 these collective forces are set up. When you have members from these
22 police administrations that are now part of these collective forces but
23 they are no longer bank rolled or financed, if you like, by their
24 original police administrations. Is that right?
25 A. Yes, that is right.
1 MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ... examination,
2 Your Honour, regarding your advice.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Before I read this --
4 MR. MISETIC: I'm sorry, I meant for today.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, yes. That's how you understood you,
6 Mr. Mikulicic.
7 Before I read the decision I don't think that the witness has to
8 remain present.
9 Mr. Janic, I'd like to -- no, no. Could I -- yes, before you
10 leave the courtroom, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak
11 with anyone about your testimony, whether already given or still to be
12 given and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same
13 courtroom. Thank you.
14 I will then now deliver the Chamber's decision on the
15 Prosecution's motion for evidence to be presented via video-conference
16 link and submission of Rule 92 ter statements and associated exhibits for
17 witness 53. The Chamber defers the part of the part of the motion
18 dealing with the submission of witness statements and one exhibit
19 pursuant to Rule 92 ter to the time when the witness will testify. This
20 decision deals merely with the part of the motion to hear witness 53 via
21 video-conference link. The proposed date of testimony is the 17th of
22 July, 2008. The Defence for the three accused responded on the 9th and
23 10th July that they do not oppose the part of the motion requesting
24 testimony via video-conference link.
25 According to Rule 81 bis of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and
1 Evidence, a Chamber may order that proceedings be conducted by way of
2 video-conference link if this is consistent with the interests of
3 justice. As previously set out by this Chamber, the standard of Rule
4 81 bis is met if a witness is unable to come to the Tribunal, if the
5 testimony is sufficiently important to make it unfair to the requesting
6 party to proceed without it, and if the accused is not prejudiced in his
7 or her right to confront the witness.
8 The Prosecution submits that the witness is unable to come to
9 The Hague
10 certificate attached to the Prosecution's motion, the disorder makes
11 Witness 53 unfit to travel. The Chamber is satisfied that the witness is
12 unable to come to the Tribunal. Having reviewed the two witness
13 statements made by the witness in 2003 and 2007, the Chamber accepts that
14 the testimony is sufficiently important to make it unfair to the
15 Prosecution to proceed without it.
16 Finally, the Defence has not argued and the Chamber does not find
17 that the accused will be prejudiced in the exercise of their right to
18 confront the witness if testimony via video-conference link is granted.
19 For the foregoing reasons, the Chamber finds that it is
20 consistent with the interests of justice to hear the testimony of witness
21 53 via video-conference link and grants the motion.
22 The Chamber requests the registrar to make the necessary
23 arrangements for a video-conference link for the testimony on or about
24 the 17th of July, 2008.
25 And this conclude the Chamber's decision.
1 As far as Witness 172 is concerned, I have not yet -- the Chamber
2 has not yet prepared a decision in such detail as I just read for witness
3 53. However, because we first wanted to look at the Gotovina Defence
4 objections against hearing witness 172's testimony through video link,
5 the Chamber has meanwhile considered it and the Chamber came to the
6 conclusion that it will granted motion in respect of video link testimony
7 for witness 172 as well. And I put this now on the record mainly to
8 facilitate the preparations for the Registrar. A similar -- a decision
9 like I just read for Witness 53 will be read for Witness 172 once we have
10 prepared it.
11 We stand adjourned until tomorrow.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm waiting.
15 Sorry, Mr. President, before Court adjourns, may I formally ask
16 that the documents submitted from the bar table yesterday be admitted
17 into evidence. After Court adjourns I will meet with Mr. Registrar and
18 indicate what documents to be left out from the --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, Ms. Mahindaratne, don't be
20 surprised that the Chamber usually wants to have a look at these
21 documents before taking any decisions in respect of that so it is fine
22 that you have chose an efficient way of tendering them but we can't give
23 a decision at this moment without having looked at the documents.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, I just wanted to make a
25 formal --
1 JUDGE ORIE: You mean a formal application.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The formal application is now on the record
4 and then again the list is filed?
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It was filed with the registry in the usual way or
7 just communicated with us?
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It is filed as in, Mr. President, it was
9 e-mailed to the Registry, and I don't know whether that would be
10 considered as sufficient formal filing. I believe that has been
11 according to procedure so far it has been considered as filed.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, if we would then grant it, it should be
13 somewhere on the record what documents actually we are talking about and
14 therefore -- but I think the practice was that be the registrar would
15 then file the list on which he has already added the exhibit numbers and
16 then once the Chamber decides to admit this in evidence, that then the
17 registrar will file the final list so that we all know what we're talking
19 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, may I make a suggestion, given the
21 fact that some of the documents we are using in cross-examination are
22 already on the bar table list that we wait until Mr. Janic's testimony is
23 done so we can see what duplication there is and we can avoid the
24 duplication and that way, we can have a chance to look at the documents
1 JUDGE ORIE: I have no problem with that as a practical solution.
2 Nevertheless, we should be aware then that we work on the basis of the
3 assumption that these documents would be admitted, because otherwise if
4 we only deal with the matter once Mr. Janic has gone then of course we
5 are too late to put any questions in relation to those documents to him.
6 If that is understood by all parties then for the practical
7 purposes of avoiding duplicates, I would not object.
8 Anything else?
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn until tomorrow, Friday, 11th of
13 July, 9.00, Courtroom II.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of July,
16 2008, at 9.00 a.m.