Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6396

 1                           Monday, 14 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- On resuming at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 7     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 8     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             I do understand that there are some bar table movements

11     continuing at this moment, and I do understand that Mr. Registrar will

12     provide us soon with a complete list in a memo so that we can further

13     deal with the matter after the Chamber has looked at the documents as

14     well.

15             Mr. Misetic.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, there is one more that I have not

17     alerted the registrar to, I don't believe.  We have sent it to the

18     Prosecution.  It is a compilation that we did in response to a question

19     posed by Judge Kinis.  If I may call it up and tender it, it is

20     1D38-0004.

21             This is a document, it's a compilation from a document that's

22     well over a thousand pages long so we put together a compilation.  It is

23     related to the 18 or -- it's meant to address the 18 August 1995 order of

24     Mr. Moric which was the subject of a question by Judge Kinis several days

25     ago.  It is criminal complaints that were filed by the MUP after the 18th

Page 6397

 1     of August for crimes that were committed before the 18th of August.

 2             And it is from the various police administrations and police

 3     stations that were subject of the Moric order of the 18th of August.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said criminal complaints.  The list

 5     however says list of charges filed against.  From my understanding a

 6     charge filed is not exactly the same as a criminal complaint lodged.  And

 7     from what I remember is that for some of them it says decision by the

 8     state prosecutor's office conviction.  I wasn't aware that prosecutors

 9     also are convicting, but I'm just trying to understand what we have been

10     presented with.

11             MR. MISETIC:  I will actually check that, Your Honour, but I

12     think it -- let me clarify that category, Your Honour.  I -- but it is

13     meant obviously category 8 is what we're talking about in terms of how

14     the proceedings ultimately wound up.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ended, yes.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it is more or less -- it has been extracted

18     from the long list.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  We tender it, Your Honour.  I'm going to be

20     contacting Mr. Margetts, because Mr. Tieger and I had a conversation.

21     I'm not sure -- they have some documents from the state attorney's

22     offices but if they need the underlying document we will be happy to give

23     it to the Prosecution so they can review it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I think that is correct, Your Honour.  As

Page 6398

 1     Mr. Misetic indicated we will I think require the underlying document and

 2     will be looking at that and will need some opportunity to both review

 3     this document and the underlying materials before we can respond.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And how much dime do you think you would need

 5     for that?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  In fairness, Your Honour, I -- given the size of the

 7     underlying materials, perhaps it would be more prudent to take a quick

 8     look and get back to the Court before suggesting arbitrarily a particular

 9     time.  I think I'm likely to overestimate the amount of time out of

10     caution without seeing the materials but once we see them I think we can

11     give a more realistic assessment.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And that could be two, three day so you can give a

13     realistic --

14             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- assessment of the time you would need.  Okay.

16             Then that's on the record.  I take that we need a number.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D568.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D568 is then marked for identification for the time

21     being, Mr. Registrar.

22             Then any other procedural matter.  If not, Mr. Hedaraly, are you

23     ready to call your next witness?

24             MR. HEDARALY:  We are, Your Honour, just before, during the

25     re-examination of Mr. Janic last week there was a document that was shown

Page 6399

 1     and not tendered.  That is 65 ter 1417, and the Prosecution would like to

 2     tender it at this time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  To be quite honest to you, it does not

 4     immediately come to my mind what 65 ter 1417 is.  Could we just have a

 5     brief look at it on the screen.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  Of course.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's -- is there any --

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objections, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  This is the publication giving information about the

10     functioning of Croatian institutions and --

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Exactly, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And it is it a document of what size, because

13     we have --

14             MR. HEDARALY:  I believe it's 45 pages and we would tender the

15     whole document because we will be relying on various portions of that

16     document.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that's the document which is already in

18     two languages because I see on my screen that it is 76 pages, but most

19     likely half in English, half in B/C/S.  Yes, it is page by page half

20     English half B/C/S.  But it is not a 45-page document, apparently.

21             Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P588.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P588 is admitted into evidence.  Since there are no

24     objections.

25             Mr. Hedaraly, apart from this issue, are you ready or will it be

Page 6400

 1     Mr. Russo to call the next witness?

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  It will be me, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, the witness, as I saw, prefers to

 4     express himself in French, although he gave his statement and signed his

 5     statement in English.  Do you have any idea whether he prefers to speak

 6     French or English in this courtroom?

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  I believe he will testify in French, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  In French.

 9             And MR. HEDARALY:  And because it is the 14th of July, I will be

10     asking questions in French as well to the witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course I do understand.  I didn't know that

12     it was celebrated in Canada as well.  But --

13             Mr. Usher, can you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  [Interpretation] Hello, Mr. Gilbert.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hello.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If I understood you well, you would rather speak

18     French.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  [Interpretation] Before you testify, our

21     procedures -- our procedure requires us that you make a solemn

22     declaration.  The text will be handed to you by our usher.

23             I apologise for my French.  I will not continue in French.  You

24     would rather speak French, and I think I would rather speak English.  But

25     I will follow your testimony in French.

Page 6401

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will say

 2     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  ALAIN GILBERT

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  You may sit

 7     down.  Mr. Hedaraly.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Before Mr. Usher sits down, if I can give him a

 9     copy of his statements and exhibits.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

11             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Good morning, captain.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Could you please give us your name for this transcript?

15        A.   My name is Alain Gilbert.

16        Q.   Captain Gilbert, do you remember having been interviewed by the

17     investigators of the OTP on January 29, 2008?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you made a statement to the OTP based on this interview

20     statement which you signed on February 5, 2008?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You re-read this statement yesterday?  Have you read this

23     statement once again yesterday?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Does this statement reflect faithfully what you told to the OTP

Page 6402

 1     during the interview with the investigator?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And what -- the content of this statement reflects the truth, as

 4     far as you know, as far as --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Finally, if the same questions were put to you again today, same

 7     questions of those that were asked when you were interviewed by the OTP,

 8     would you answer in the same way?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I have

11     document 5319 be on the screen.

12        Q.   Captain Gilbert, could you confirm that the statement that we see

13     now on the screen is the one that we mentioned earlier?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the document

16     5319 be tendered into evidence under Rule 92 ter.

17             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

19             Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number 589.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P589 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  If we could please have 65 ter 5215, please.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpreters, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, you have heard the request to slow

25     down for the interpreters?  No.  Well, now you have.

Page 6403

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Gilbert, we see an aerial photograph on the screen.  Is this

 4     the base of the UN in Knin in 1995?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   On this picture, you circled in red the place where your office

 7     was.  Is that it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  If I could now have 65 ter 5335, please.

10             Can I have the assistance of Mr. Usher to provide a photograph

11     for the witness to place on the ELMO.

12             There seems to be a problem with uploading in e-court, but they

13     are going to be resolving it shortly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, is 65 ter 5335, is that an article

15     written by this witness, which you sought to be uploaded, or is it

16     something else?

17             MR. HEDARALY:  No, Your Honour.  It is a picture.  A photograph.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the one that we have now on our screen?

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour, it is.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

21             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Gilbert, do we see the -- does this photograph represent the

23     base of the UN in Knin?

24        A.   Yes, part of it in Knin.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  If I could have the assistance of the Mr. Usher so

Page 6404

 1     the witness can mark this picture.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gilbert, with the electronic pen, could you

 3     please circle your office on this photograph?

 4        A.   Of course.

 5        Q.   Can you please a B next to it for B like bureau, office in

 6     French.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, at this time ...

 8                           [French on English Channel]

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Unfortunately, my French is not what it should be.

10     We got the French translation on the English channel.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is true.  I was listening to the English

12     as well.  But what Mr. Hedaraly asked is to have the two documents to be

13     admitted under one number.  That is the aerial photograph and this

14     photograph marked by the witness where his office was marked with the

15     letter B.

16             MR. KEHOE:  There's no objection to that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection to that.  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P590.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P590, consisting of one aerial photograph and one

20     photograph marked by the witness, is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

22     tender the following exhibits that are joined to the statement.  65 ter

23     5214, those are the notes made by the witness on the morning of August 4,

24     1995.  65 ter 5216, the text of an article written by this witness.  And

25     exhibit 438 which is the minutes of a meeting held on August 4th by

Page 6405

 1     General Forand and the representative of the RSK.

 2             All these documents are attached to the statement and the basis

 3     for their tendering can be find in the statement of the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, one by one first --

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  I have no objection to any of those exhibits.  I

 8     would ask that they be subsequently numbered as opposed to one bulk

 9     number.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's how I understood Mr. Hedaraly's request,

11     to have them one by one.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Pardon me.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, first the notes, I do understand

14     handwritten notes made by the witness on the morning of the 4th of

15     August, 5214.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This becomes exhibit number P591, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P591 is admitted into evidence.

18             The next one being 438, minutes of a meeting held on August the

19     4th with General Forand and representative of the RSK.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  This becomes exhibit number P592, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P592 is admitted into evidence.

22             And then the --

23             MR. HEDARALY:  5216.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was 5216.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That becomes exhibit number P593, Your Honours.

Page 6406

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P593 is admitted into evidence.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

 3             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   For your information, there is one document that is joined and is

 5     mentioned on paragraph 28 of this statement, but it has already been

 6     tendered into evidence as D197 -- D297.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are informed now.  That's what you said,

 9     isn't it?

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.  If we could have 65 ter 5336 on the

11     screen, please.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Captain Gilbert, let me show you a few

13     photographs that were taken from the third floor balcony of the UN base

14     in Knin.  This will soon be on the screen in front of you.

15        A.   I see them.

16        Q.   Does this photograph show part of what you saw from your office

17     when looking at Knin?

18        A.   Yes.  This picture was taken from the balcony.  If I remember

19     well, the window of my office must have been about ten metres off on the

20     right.  But this is what I would see from my window.

21        Q.   In the notes that you made on the morning of August 4th as well

22     as in your statement, paragraph 15, for example, you refer, and I will

23     say -- quote in English, because your notes are in English [Previous

24     translation continues] ... building.

25             [Interpretation] In your statement you say that you were using

Page 6407

 1     that parliament white building as a reference.  Can you see it on this

 2     photograph?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Could our usher please help us once again so that the witness can

 5     mark the document and if you could circle it red, please.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Excuse me, could we please have a indicate that

 7     the photograph was taken?  Thank you.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  It was last year, I believe, in the fall of 2007.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.

10             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Judge, my recollection is that it is in

11     late November of 2007.  I think that's about right.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.  That would be the fall.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you kindly place the letter P alongside

14     the parliament building, please?

15        A.   [Marks].

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Could we save this photograph and

18     move on to the next photograph.  It's a series of three.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, do you want at a later stage to tender

20     the unmarked photograph as well or just the marked version?

21             MR. HEDARALY:  There will be two marked and one unmarked, and I

22     will tender the series of two marked and one unmarked as one exhibit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I now have the unmarked version again on my

24     screen.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  The second page of this document should be a

Page 6408

 1     different picture.  Here we go.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Captain Gilbert, this photograph is a view you

 3     had from your balcony slightly to the right.  Is that right?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  [Previous translation continues] ... of that

 6     document, please.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Once again, Captain, in this picture we see the

 8     view or part of the view you had from your office on the 4th of August,

 9     1995.  Is that right?

10        A.   Yes.  I realise on looking at this photograph that there were two

11     balconies in front of the building.  My office was on the right-hand side

12     ten metres away.  So, in fact, it's a second balcony which I indicated a

13     while ago.  My office was to the right of that and that was a view I had

14     from my window.

15        Q.   In your notes and in your statement in paragraph 17 and 18, you

16     refer to a small hill.  In English you say [In English]... hill.

17             [Interpretation] Can you tell us whether you can see this small

18     hill you referred to?

19        A.   It's certainly one of those two hills, but on looking at this

20     photograph I don't know which hill is the smallest.  But in paragraph 17

21     what I mentioned was that it was behind the smallest of the two hills.

22     Or hillocks.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

25     tender these three photographs into evidence.  And I would like just one

Page 6409

 1     exhibit number.  The first photograph was marked by the witness.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Judge.  That one question will be a little

 3     confusing on cross, so I would ask that we put separate numbers for these

 4     photos.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to -- I was confused by the answer about

 6     the two balconies.

 7             First question:  Are all the photographs taken from the same

 8     balcony?

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, they are, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And then, Mr. Gilbert, was this balcony which we see

11     prominently in the front of this picture, was that the balcony in front

12     of your office or is it the one in the back that was in front of your

13     office?  I see two balconies on this photograph, the one from which the

14     photograph is taken and other one further away.  Which one is the one in

15     front of your office?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one which is the furthest away,

17     my window did not give on to the balcony but on to the window next door.

18     So to be very precise, it's a window which is to the right-hand side five

19     metres approximately from the furthest -- the balcony that is the

20     furthest away.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So it is the -- I don't know whether it is one

22     building or two buildings, but at least the balcony further away was the

23     balcony of the building your office was in, but, you say, your office did

24     not give entrance to the balcony but was to the right of that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.  And that -- we're

Page 6410

 1     talking about the same building.  It's one and the same building.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently two parts of that building, I can't

 3     see that on this photograph.

 4             Then I have one further question:  To the right of that further

 5     away balcony seen from the building or facing the building?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the building.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the furthest away from what we see on this

 8     photograph at this moment?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Mr. Registrar, we have now three photographs.  The first one

12     marked by the witness, Mr. Registrar.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar suggests, and I'm inclined to follow

15     him, that we first have the unmarked photograph with just a tiny little

16     bit of the corner of the balcony and that would be, Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that's 65 ter 05336 and becomes

18     exhibit number P594.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P594 is admitted into evidence.

20             Now the second exhibit is the same photograph but now marked by

21     the witness with the white parliament building.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That becomes exhibit number P595, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's not the one that's on our screen at the

24     moment but P594 -- no, I'm -- the second exhibit now, the photograph

25     marked by the witness is P595 and is admitted into evidence.

Page 6411

 1             The next one, unmarked photograph.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P596.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P596 is admitted into evidence.

 4             And, finally, the last one with the two balconies.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That becomes exhibit number P597, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P597 which we now see on our screen is admitted into

 7     evidence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could we go back to P590.  Captain, I'd like to clarify what you

11     have just said to the Presiding Judge of this Chamber.

12             The balcony from which the photographs were taken, the balcony

13     we've just seen, are those the balconies that we see on the right hand of

14     this building here?

15        A.   Yes.  I can tell you where it is if you like.

16        Q.   That's not necessary.

17        A.   To the right-hand side of this building.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to read

20     a short summary of the witness's statement, and I shall read it out in

21     English.

22             [In English] Alain Gilbert was an officer in the Canadian armed

23     forces stationed in Knin in 1995 with UNCRO as General Alain Forand's

24     aide-de-camp.  On the morning of 4 August 1995, he observed the shelling

25     of Knin from his office on the top floor of the UN headquarters.  He

Page 6412

 1     recorded some of his observations regarding the shelling that morning in

 2     his notebook, including the fact that MRLs were used at 5.00 a.m.

 3             In addition, he also provides evidence on the shelling on the

 4     morning of the 5th of August, 1995, and, in particular, an initial

 5     barrage of approximately 400 shells that fell between 5.19 and 5.25.

 6             Mr. Gilbert also noticed burning and looting in Knin and around

 7     after Operation Storm.  He became the refugee officer at the UN camp on

 8     25 August 1995, and his impression was that most of the Serbs wanted to

 9     go back to their houses but were afraid of doing so for their safety.

10             This concludes my summary, Your Honours, as well as my direct

11     examination.

12             [Interpretation] Thank you, Captain.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Hedaraly.

14             Mr. Kehoe, I take it that you would like to have the lectern.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to cross-examine the

17     witness?

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, just get a little situated I'll be

19     ready to go.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gilbert, you will now be cross-examined by

21     Mr. Kehoe, who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, captain.  I would like to ask you a few questions

24     from your statements and from your article and if we jump around a little

25     bit just bear with me, but I would direct your attention to the documents

Page 6413

 1     before you as we go through things.

 2             Now, the first item that I would like to talk to you about,

 3     Captain, is the statement that you make in paragraph 36 of your

 4     statement, 589.

 5             Now, captain, you had come to Knin on the 8th of July and you

 6     note in your -- paragraph 36 that there were no Croats living in Knin in

 7     August of 1995.

 8             Now, when you were in Knin, did you talk to the Serb population

 9     as to why there were no Croats living in Knin?

10        A.   No.  This was through our briefings in the morning which we had

11     at the UNHCR and cooperation meetings that this information was conveyed

12     to me, I arrived in Knin rather, on the 28th of June.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I am mistaken if I read in paragraph 36 that five

15     per cent of -- oh, no.  I see that, now I see that.  It's the last line,

16     yes.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. KEHOE:  I apologise.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I made a mistake.

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   Nevertheless, I mean, did you converse with the Serb population

22     in Knin prior to Operation Storm?

23        A.   Not really.

24        Q.   When you say "not really," what do you mean, not really?  Did you

25     talk to them?

Page 6414

 1        A.   No.  The only people were employees in the camp that were Serb,

 2     but I didn't speak to any locals, any local Serbs living there.

 3        Q.   And when you -- when you spoke to the Serbs that were in the camp

 4     did you ask them what happened to the Croats in Knin?

 5        A.   No.  But I know -- I did know what happened to them.

 6        Q.   What did you know?

 7        A.   Undoubtedly, more than undoubtedly, they were expelled from the

 8     town of Knin in 1992.

 9        Q.   Now let me focus in on the time-frame prior to Operation Storm

10     and, if I may, I'd like to direct your attention to your article which is

11     P593.

12             MR. KEHOE:  And if we could bring that up on the screen.

13        Q.   This is a -- page 3 in the English.  I'm not sure what it is in

14     the French.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  It's tab 5 in the binder the witness has, just for

16     --

17             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you very much, counsellor.  I don't know how

18     Your Honour wants to handle this between the B/C/S and the English and

19     the French, but I just ask for Your Honours's guidance as to what comes

20     up on the screen.  I'm going to obviously deal with the English version

21     and the witness can deal with either one, I'm sure.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if there would be any -- if they're not

23     fully congruent, then we will --

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 6415

 1             MR. KEHOE:

 2        Q.   And I'm dealing, captain, with the third page in the English

 3     about middle of the way down and you're talking about the shelling on the

 4     1st of August and note about -- about the individuals coming to the camp.

 5     Women, children, and old people who had not left the night before, either

 6     by personal choice or because they had no means of transport, were hiding

 7     in the basement.

 8             And I wanted to talk to about your comment there, had not left

 9     the night before.  And I take it that, sir, you know then Major

10     Bellerose, do you not?

11        A.   It's a major, yes, he is a major.  Not --

12             MR. HEDARALY:   [Previous translation continues] ... the Article

13     is the 4th of August, not the 1st of August.

14             MR. KEHOE:  My apologies.  I was talking about the 4th.  If I

15     said the 1st, I stand corrected.

16        Q.   Yes.  Major Bellerose in his diary, and this is exhibit 513,

17     noted on the 28th of July of 1995 that the locals were leaving the area.

18     I'm going to go through a sequence of events, captain, and just ask you

19     some questions about it.

20             Again, on the 29th of July, again in D513, Major Bellerose said

21     that the people in Knin are very nervous, a lot of them are leaving town

22     and refugees from Bosansko Grahovo are arriving.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  I think we had last week once again, that if the

Page 6416

 1     testimony or something of someone else is being shown to confront the

 2     witness, the question should be asked of him.  He talked about the 4th in

 3     his article.  I think he should first be asked if he has any knowledge of

 4     these people on the 29th of July and then be confronted with

 5     Mr. Bellerose's statement or diary or testimony.  I think that's what we

 6     had this discussion last week about and Your Honour referred to a

 7     transcript portion of a few weeks ago.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we did not have the discussion in this

 9     fashion and what I'm doing is highlighting a sequence of events of items

10     that have come into evidence with Prosecution witnesses and then asking

11     the witness based on what he said in his article.  Now, this is not the

12     sequence of events as presented by the Prosecution.  I'm sorry.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  But he has not testified or brought any evidence

14     on the 28th of July, so he should first be asked the question given a

15     chance to then be confronted.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly is asking you to first, without

17     referring to other evidence, to elicit from the witness what he knows

18     about the event, and only after that, to put to him what other

19     evidence --

20             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, this is items that are already in

21     evidence and are part of the record.  What I am doing is bringing to this

22     witness's attention items that are part of the record and then asking him

23     questions based on evidence in the record.  That's what I'm doing here in

24     an expeditious form, as opposed to taking these items sequentially.  The

25     jumping off point is his comment that these people had left the night

Page 6417

 1     before and I am simply taking him through a sequence of events or items

 2     that have come into evidence already.  This is not something that I'm

 3     pulling out that hasn't come in from a Prosecution witness already.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  And --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That apparently is not the issue.  The issue

 6     apparently is that Mr. Hedaraly, and I would have to review exactly what

 7     we said about that, if you could give me a source, Mr. Hedaraly, I'll try

 8     to find it.  The issue is that prior to putting to the witness what is in

 9     evidence already, first ask the witness without putting that to him what

10     he knows about it.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I will take the long way around and this

12     is going the long way around.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Well -- 4881 to 4883 --

14             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, I wasn't finished speaking.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I asked --

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Hedaraly to give me the reference.

18             MR. KEHOE:  And I was responding to a --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So at that moment, I think, Mr. Hedaraly,

20     polite approach would have been not to interrupt Mr. Kehoe.  At the same

21     time I thank you for finding the point -- the reference for me.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.  And I'll check exactly what was said

23     for this first question, if you take what you call the long route.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 6418

 1             MR. KEHOE:

 2        Q.   Captain Gilbert, on the 28th of July, did you see a general

 3     mobilisation of ARSK soldiers in Knin?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   So when a Prosecution witness Major Bellerose wrote in his diary

 6     on 28th July general mobilisation is happening in town, you don't know

 7     anything about that?

 8        A.   I don't know what you mean.  These are the words spoken by Major

 9     Bellerose.  I don't remember that there was such a general mobilisation.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I'm sorry for interrupting you, but due

11     to the quick exchange of views now the reference doesn't appear on the

12     transcript, so I have difficulties in finding it.

13             Could you please, Mr. Hedaraly, repeat the reference you just

14     gave.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  I will do in a second, Your Honour.  I'm just

16     getting a little lost myself.  If you'll just give me a few minutes I'll

17     be able to answer.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine, but please not by interrupting Mr.

19     Kehoe.  Wait until he has finished his sentences.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Captain, were you aware that on the 28th of July that

23     Bosansko Grahovo had fallen to the HV?

24        A.   No.  I don't remember the operational sequence of the various

25     parties present.  This was not part of my job.  I don't remember, no.

Page 6419

 1        Q.   Were you aware, Captain that on the 28th of July, the president

 2     of the Republic of Serb Krajina, Milan Martic, declared a state of war

 3     throughout the entire Krajina?

 4        A.   I don't remember anything of this kind.

 5        Q.   Staying on the 28th, were you aware that the local population was

 6     leaving the area?

 7        A.   It's quite possible.

 8        Q.   I'm going to ask you, did you know it or did you not?

 9        A.   No, I didn't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  4861, 4862.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

13             MR. KEHOE:

14        Q.   Now, again going further, on the 29th of July, moving yet closer

15     to Operation Storm, were you aware in Knin that the civilian population

16     was leaving?

17        A.   It's likely that the population in Knin was beginning to leave

18     around those dates.

19        Q.   Well, tell us what you know about that, captain, about the

20     population leaving Knin around those dates.

21        A.   Well, there was a state of panic of a sort in Knin.  There were

22     rumours circulating and saying that there would be a Croatian attack

23     against Knin in the next few weeks or days.  In fact, together with

24     General Forand, when we did our rounds and visits the UN forces, we were

25     called back to the camp, because there was some emergency.  There was

Page 6420

 1     something going on, because there was a state of panic in Knin.

 2             I could say that there was a -- a likely attack on the part of

 3     the Croatian on the 28th and 29th of July.  I believe that the civilian

 4     population had started to leave Knin already.

 5        Q.   And did they leave -- and how did the civilian population leave?

 6        A.   Whichever way they could, and they crossed through Bosnia.

 7        Q.   Now, Captain, did this exodus of the civilian population continue

 8     from the 28th and the 29th through the eve of Operation Storm?

 9        A.   Yes, I agree with that.

10        Q.   So you would agree, sir, that the exodus of the civilian

11     population throughout Knin all this time was quite extensive, wasn't it?

12        A.   I don't agree with you particularly, but there was an exodus of

13     the people living there.

14        Q.   Now, sir, during this same time-frame did you also see a build-up

15     of military personnel and military vehicles in and around the Knin area?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... read you the testimony of

18     another Prosecution witness, Jan Elleby, who was a CIVPOL police officer

19     who noted that now as we move -- this is on page 3474.

20             "Question:  Now as we move through July of 1995 you note in your

21     supplemental information sheet, and it says well, actually -- I think it

22     begins on P214, that you saw a lot of soldiers on the street but in your

23     supplemental sheet you observed an increased number of RSK troops in Knin

24     in this period.  In the period building up to Operation Storm, can you

25     tell us about that a little?"

Page 6421

 1             "Answer:  Yes.  The assessment of the picture in the streets in

 2     the town was that from a few days in July up to the end of July, that

 3     there came more and more military vehicles, more and more uniformed

 4     military personnel."

 5             "Question:  And did you and other CIVPOL monitors observe that

 6     while you were driving around the area?"

 7             "Answer:  Yes."

 8             Is that informing by Mr. Elleby consistent with your observations

 9     in Knin at the latter part of July?

10        A.   That information stems from Mr. Elleby.  That's what he remembers

11     from those times.  I don't remember a huge build-up as this gentleman has

12     mentioned.

13        Q.   Well, there was a military presence in Knin, wasn't there, prior

14     to Operation Storm?

15        A.   Yes, there was a military presence.  There was.

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.

17             And that military presence, sir, was quite significant, wasn't

18     it?

19        A.   No.  I can't quantify it any way and say it was significant or

20     not.  I know that there was a military presence since one could come

21     across soldiers when one went to the residence, from the camp to the

22     residence.

23        Q.   Well, sir, as of the 5th of August the speculation in UN

24     Sector South was that Knin would not fall until 48 hours later and

25     possibly not till a week later.  Isn't that so?

Page 6422

 1        A.   What I remember is that it might have been 24 hours, 48 hours, a

 2     week before, or even more.  So that is right.  If you say 24, 24 hours,

 3     48 hours, that's right.  Personally, I thought that might have been a bit

 4     longer.

 5        Q.   Let's turn directly to your article and go to page 4 in the

 6     English.  The first full paragraph after the carry-over paragraph.

 7        A.   [In English] The one that start with:  "We expect"?

 8        Q.   Yes.  Yes, sir.  I'm just waiting for it to come up on the

 9     screen, captain, if I may.

10             The second sentence in:  "At 5th August at 0519, 1995, another

11     intensive artillery barrage, more than 500 shells fall on the town in six

12     minutes.  The forecast of when the Croatian forces will arrive in Knin

13     proceed apace.  48-72 hours to one week or more."

14             So the belief in Sector South was that there was at least another

15     48 hours before Knin was going to fall.  Isn't that so?

16        A.   [Interpretation] I don't know what people believed in

17     Sector South, but that's what I believed.

18        Q.   And that belief was based on the fact that you thought that the

19     ARSK had the military strength in Knin to fight off the HV for between 48

20     to 72 hours to one week.  Isn't that right?

21        A.   Yes.  But I believed it was a matter of defending Knin from the

22     outside and protecting it that way.

23        Q.   And the -- Knin was in fact defended out on various front line

24     areas, wasn't it?

25        A.   I don't think that Knin was defended by several front lines.

Page 6423

 1        Q.   Well, there was a front line, was there not, that was manned by

 2     the RSK with both personnel and artillery.  Isn't that right?

 3        A.   Probably.  I don't know where those lines were, but we have every

 4     reason to believe that the RSK had soldiers there that were defending

 5     that.

 6        Q.   Is your testimony, Captain, that you don't know where the front

 7     lines were and where the ARSK positions were on the front line?

 8        A.   When I was there, we visited some of the positions, some of the

 9     Serb positions and some of the Croatian positions with our aides and

10     liaison officer, but I cannot describe to you the front lines and the

11     Serb defence line as they were protecting Knin.

12        Q.   So, you knew that they were on the front line but you don't know

13     where the front line was?  And I'm talking about the ARSK now.

14        A.   That's correct.  We don't know what the -- how many soldiers they

15     had either.

16        Q.   So if -- if I can just take that once step further, if there was

17     shelling somewhere on the front line between the ARSK and the HV, you

18     wouldn't know who was shelling whom, would you?  You would just hear it?

19        A.   Could you repeat your question again.  I had a problem with the

20     translation.  I would like to hear it in English, please.  Could I have

21     it again, please?

22        Q.   Absolutely, captain.  And if at any time that you don't

23     understand one of my questions, just tell me, okay?

24             Captain, so if there was shelling going on on the front line

25     between the HV and the ARSK and you were hearing this from the UN

Page 6424

 1     Sector South headquarters, you wouldn't know who was firing on whom,

 2     would you, because you didn't know where these positions on the front

 3     lines were?

 4        A.   I was in the Knin camp, on -- the artillery fire from the 4th and

 5     5th of July went over our camp and reached Knin.  So I knew that these

 6     shots came from the south.  But I cannot believe that this would be

 7     anything other than Croatian artillery fire that was over our heads and

 8     landed in Knin, but I didn't know exactly where the front lines were but

 9     I was able to detect where the shots came from and where they landed.

10        Q.   Was there shelling going on on the front line area, Captain?

11        A.   I don't know about that.  Probably.  But this was not part of my

12     responsibilities.  There was certainly some firing on the front lines,

13     but I wasn't involved in that.

14        Q.   When you were in the UN Sector South headquarters, could you hear

15     it?

16        A.   On the 4th and 5th of August, yes, very well.

17        Q.   And when you heard this firing on the front line, isn't it a fact

18     that you don't know who was firing on whom, do you?

19        A.   I knew who was firing at who.  The -- the shooting came from the

20     south, went over our heads, and fell on Knin.

21        Q.   If I may, sir.  Let us pull up P102.

22             Captain, this is UN sitrep report from UNMO's headquarters

23     Sector South dated 4th August at 2000 hours.  If we can go three pages

24     in, the bottom of the page.  Reports from KenBat.  You know the KenBat

25     locations, captain?

Page 6425

 1        A.   You're talking about KenBat or CanBat 1?

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   I couldn't tell you today where that was.  But, yes, I knew where

 4     the Kenyans were.

 5        Q.   They were between Strmica and up on the Dinara, weren't they?

 6        A.   I can't tell that you.  I don't know.

 7        Q.   Just bear with me here, Colonel.  As of -- this is 2000 hours on

 8     the 4th.  There are 1230 bomb reports from the Kenyan Battalion, 638 from

 9     the ARSK, 592 from the HV HVO.  Do you have any idea whether or not when

10     you were in UN Sector South if you heard that type of artillery fire

11     taking place?

12        A.   Your Honour, I have problems with the translation.  Could you

13     tell me the question in English again, please?  Could you repeat it?

14        Q.   Sure.  Let me just read it to you again.  I think it might be on

15     your screen.

16             As of -- this is it 2000 hours on the 4th there are 1230 bomb

17     reports from the Kenyan Battalion, 648 from the ARSK, 592 from the HV

18     HVO.  Do you have any idea whether or not you -- when you were in UN

19     Sector South you heard that type of artillery fire taking place?

20        A.   I didn't hear the firing.  I certainly couldn't have heard the

21     firing coming from the Kenyans.

22        Q.   Is it your testimony, sir, that you could not hear artillery fire

23     from the location of the Kenyan Battalion?

24        A.   I don't know.  Your Honour, as far as I remember, the Kenyan

25     positions were far removed.  I can't tell you exactly where they were

Page 6426

 1     compared with our headquarters in Knin.  But the shots that fell and the

 2     shots that could be fired, I'm talking about artillery fire in the Kenyan

 3     sector, well, those shots, I did not hear.  That's for sure.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let us turn our attention, and we'll get back that in a

 5     bit when we start talking about the artillery that you did in fact

 6     observe in Knin and we'll talk a little bit about this.  And let us go to

 7     the evening of the 3rd.  Do you know that on the evening of the 3rd,

 8     Colonel Leslie talked to Major Dussault and they told Mr. Bellerose, and

 9     this is it in P546.  They went into the ops room and Mr. Bellerose say I

10     went into the operations room to speak to them and they told me that they

11     had received a message stating that something was likely to happen the

12     following day.

13             Now, do you recall Colonel Leslie telling General Forand that he

14     had received that message at 2300 and that something was likely to happen

15     the following day?

16        A.   No, I didn't know about this, about this discussion and I don't

17     know whether Colonel Leslie said that to General Forand or not.

18        Q.   Well, had he told General Forand that, you being General Forand's

19     aide-de-camp, would you have known about it?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second, please.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, he answered the question.  Now it's

24     calling for speculation.

25             MR. KEHOE:  I took the question as if he had told Forand, would

Page 6427

 1     this gentleman, this captain who was his aide-de-camp, would he have

 2     known about it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, of course it is speculative to the

 4     extent that we do not know whether it was told to Mr. Forand and

 5     therefore not whether the message could have been passed to Mr. Gilbert.

 6     At the same time, Mr. Kehoe is asking if you'd look at it in a more

 7     general way as to whether information received by Mr. Forand would, under

 8     normal circumstances, read -- reach Mr. Gilbert, and that question is

 9     admissible.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

11             Mr. Kehoe, may I take that that's what you wanted to ask --

12             MR. KEHOE:  You're absolutely right.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you choose the right formulation right away, then

14     Mr. Hedaraly is --

15             MR. KEHOE:  No, no, Your Honour I was just waiting for the usher

16     to --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  I meant if you initially had formulated the

18     question as I did it and --

19             MR. KEHOE:  Yours was much better, Judge.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not saying that.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  I agree with that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It avoids objections by Mr. Hedaraly.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. KEHOE:

Page 6428

 1        Q.   Did you understand?  Do you want me to repeat the question,

 2     captain?

 3        A.   [In English] Yes, if you're allowed to do it, do it again.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Captain, in the normal course of events, if Colonel Leslie

 5     had called General Forand at 2300 hours on the 3rd of August and told him

 6     that he received a message that something was likely to happened the

 7     following day, is that something that you would in the normal course of

 8     events have known about?

 9        A.   Most probably because at that time my recollection is that we

10     were at the residence at 2200 at that time and I would have known because

11     I was at the residence, if it is something that they would have discussed

12     at the headquarter earlier, maybe I would not have been informed.

13        Q.   Now, what time did you get the call from Sector South

14     headquarters that something was going to happen?

15        A.   I said headquarter in my deposition.  I'm not 100 percent sure

16     but it was from a headquarter so it could be Canadian, it could be

17     Zagreb, or it could be Sector South.  I think in Sector South and it was

18     at 0330 hour on the 4th of August.

19        Q.   And what time was it that you left to -- with General Forand to

20     go back to Sector South headquarters?

21        A.   Around 0400.

22        Q.   Now, prior to you leaving, did General Forand give any order, you

23     know, to warn other UN personnel that they should get back to the base?

24        A.   No.  No specific UN personnel other than the -- that there was

25     one, the -- the Czech colonel living on the first floor in the same

Page 6429

 1     residence we were, so he left with us.

 2        Q.   Now, Captain, at this time, there were people that were staying

 3     in the UN camp, weren't there?  For safety reasons, I mean.

 4        A.   No, I don't think so.

 5        Q.   You don't recall that?

 6        A.   More than I don't recall.  I don't think so.  There was nobody

 7     living in our camp for safety reason.

 8        Q.   In the days -- in the days leading up to Operation Storm,

 9     Captain, was there any preparations going on within Sector South

10     headquarters to ensure that -- that there was extra food and extra water

11     and that people had bags backed and the APCs were ready to pick up UN

12     personnel if an attack took place?  Were any of those preparations being

13     made?

14        A.   I don't know about the preparation itself.  Now I find out that I

15     speak in English, I hope it is fine.  I don't think that there were any

16     specific preparation taking place, but, as I said earlier, at one point

17     we were called back in the camp because there would be an attack coming

18     the next day.  So we know there was a feeling that there was something

19     that would happen.  Where, not sure.

20        Q.   And the information you got about the attack was an hour and a

21     half before the actual attack took place?

22        A.   Yeah, 0330.

23        Q.   Now, let me talk to you a little bit about your testimony and

24     about the actual shelling itself.  And if we can go through this, you

25     note in your -- in your statement at -- if I may, paragraph 9 that you

Page 6430

 1     not an artillery expert.  And before we go into this shelling I'd just

 2     like to ask you a few things.

 3             You note in paragraph 9 that in your estimation most of the

 4     shelling came from a 155-millimetre or a 203-millimetre.  Do you see,

 5     sir?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know, sir, what type of 155, what it was?

 8        A.   Heavy artillery.

 9        Q.   No.  I'm just asking was it a Howitzer or a gun.  Or do you know?

10        A.   I don't know if it was a Howitzer or a gun.

11        Q.   Well, whether or not it's a Howitzer or a gun has a lot to do

12     with the range.  Has everything to do with the range of the weapon,

13     doesn't it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And at the time that the shelling was taking place on the morning

16     of the 4th, was Knin within range of 155?

17        A.   Yes, I would say yes.

18        Q.   And what was the range?

19        A.   I'm not sure.  I would say approximately 25 kilometre.

20        Q.   So your testimony -- well, let me be more specific.  If the HV

21     only had a 155 Howitzer, what's the range on a 155 Howitzer?

22        A.   I said I'm not sure, but I would estimate that the range is 25

23     kilometre.

24        Q.   Would you surprise, sir, to learn that it's about 17 kilometres?

25        A.   No, I would not be surprised and I don't know if it is true, but

Page 6431

 1     I'm not surprised.

 2        Q.   Okay.  If it was within 17, a 155 would not have been within

 3     range of Knin from the positions of the HV on the morning of the 4th,

 4     would it?

 5        A.   I don't know where the position of the HV were on the morning of

 6     the 4th.

 7        Q.   How about the 203s.  You maintain there was a 203 being used.

 8     What's the range on a 203?

 9        A.   I'm not sure.  I would estimate over 35 kilometre, approximately

10     35 kilometre.

11        Q.   You're testimony is that the range on a 203 is 35 kilometres?

12        A.   No.  I said I'm not sure.  So I would estimate it as 35 kilometre

13     because you are asking me to estimate it.

14        Q.   So if there -- if in fact the -- would you be surprised to learn

15     that the range of a 203 is less than 20 kilometres?

16        A.   No, I'm not surprised and I don't know if it's true.

17        Q.   Okay.  So when you tell us it's 35 kilometres, you really don't

18     know?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Now that they're both speaking English, the French

21     was a little slower, so just pause between question and answer.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're now speaking the same language.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And we would have take a little pause between

25     question and answer and answer and question.

Page 6432

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   Yes.  So when you said 35 kilometres, Captain, for a 203 that's

 4     pure speculation on your part, isn't it?

 5        A.   No, that is not pure speculation.  What I wrote on that

 6     paragraph with 155 and 203-millimetre artillery is more about the damage

 7     and explosion that I saw on the ground than the actual range of the gun

 8     itself.  But, as I said earlier, it was coming from 15 to 35 kilometre,

 9     my estimation.

10        Q.   And well, we can just let the record stand the way it is.  But

11     you don't really know what the range of a 203 is, do you?

12        A.   But as I said, I said I would guess or approximate it at 35

13     kilometre.

14        Q.   Now let's just talk a little bit about your observations at the

15     time.  And if we can go to your notes, if I may, and I'm dealing with

16     P591.

17             Now, when the shelling actually started at 5.01, you were

18     actually walking around the camp, weren't you?

19        A.   Are you referring to a specific paragraph or --

20        Q.   Sure.

21        A.   -- I don't know the --

22        Q.   I may, sir, if you can go to paragraph 5 in your statement.

23             Paragraph 5:  "It was during this tour of the camp that the first

24     shells fell on Knin."

25        A.   Yeah, correct.

Page 6433

 1        Q.   Okay.  So your notations here that you have in P591 started at

 2     5.02 were something that you wrote after the fact, right, after you had

 3     finished walking around the camp, ran back at the headquarters and went

 4     back upstairs, right?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   And as a matter of fact, you have no notations whatsoever in here

 7     between 5.02 and 5.38?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   And the fact is, sir, that when you offered an opinion as to the

10     amount of shelling that was going on, these were your rough estimates

11     because even from your notes we just note this gap between 5.02 and 5.38,

12     and if I can continue on your notes stop at approximately 9.30.  You can

13     take a look at your notes, 591, I believe you can see the third page,

14     that your actual notes stop.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yeah.

16        Q.   So what you have given us is your rough approximation -- let me

17     withdraw that a second.

18             How much time did you spend up in the window or on the balcony

19     looking at this?

20        A.   I would estimate from 5.02 to noon and to come back later on the

21     afternoon, you know, I don't have really a recollection but I spend most

22     of the time there.

23        Q.   But the -- you stopped talking notes at 9.30 and then you began

24     to do other things later on in the morning with General Forand, didn't

25     you?

Page 6434

 1        A.   No, it's not correct.  I don't know why the register ended at

 2     0923.

 3             May I say that the reason why me taking those notes on that

 4     morning has nothing to do with coming here and giving an official

 5     testimony of the number of shell that landed in Knin on the 4th and the

 6     5th of August.  It is some notes that I took, and it does not reflect the

 7     exact amount of shell that were fired on Knin on the 4th and the 5th, but

 8     it is the note that I took on that morning as I was seeing them.

 9        Q.   And I appreciate that, Captain, and I just am trying to bore down

10     a little bit on some of your approximations given the fact that you had

11     other duties certainly starting about midday and that you stopped taking

12     records of approximately 9.30, and we know from your notes that at

13     approximately noon time you went down to a meeting with General Forand to

14     the ARSK, didn't you?

15        A.   Yes.  My notes are showing that at 12.10 to 1300 there was a

16     meeting with General Forand and have I a recollection of that.  But why

17     there is no indication of the number of shell that landed, because there

18     were, 0950 to 1210, I don't know why there is no entry in this little

19     book.

20        Q.   But suffice it to say, Captain, that your testimony on the

21     approximate amount of shells reflects what you saw but also what you

22     heard.  Isn't that right?

23        A.   Please say the question again.

24        Q.   When you offered an assessment concerning the amount of shells

25     that you say fell on Knin, that reflects an estimate of what you saw but

Page 6435

 1     also what you heard.  Isn't that right?

 2        A.   Yeah, most -- most of what I saw, but also from what I heard,

 3     yeah.

 4        Q.   Now, you also note here that at 8.03, there was outgoing shell

 5     fire -- outgoing fire 300 metres out from the camp.

 6             Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I can read 0803, outgoing 300 metre out from camp and three

 8     question mark, yeah.

 9        Q.   And that, sir, was outgoing fire by the ARSK, wasn't it?

10        A.   I cannot say.  I don't know.  That's why there are question mark

11     there.  It was strange that there was outgoing fire 30 metre -- 300

12     metres out from the camp.

13        Q.   Well, Captain, it was outgoing fire from terrain that was

14     controlled at that time by the ARSK, wasn't it?

15        A.   I cannot even see where was that ground from my window.  So I

16     cannot say that it was ground that was controlled by the ARSK.

17        Q.   Well, I mean as you sit here, Captain, do you think it was ground

18     that was covered by the ARSK or do you think the HV was already in Knin

19     300 metres from the UN Sector South camp?

20        A.   I don't know.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I don't know if you want to take a break

22     now or you want me to keep going.  It's --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It looks as if this is a right time to have a

24     break.

25             Mr. Kehoe, could you give us any impression and could other

Page 6436

 1     Defence counsel give us any impression on how much time would you still

 2     need?

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, probably just finish in the next

 4     session.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I hear from other counsel.

 6             MR. CAYLEY:  Yes.  I have about 30 minutes of the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Same for me, Your Honour.  Thank you.  Perhaps

 9     less.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That means that there is a fair expectation, but I'm

11     also looking to you, Mr. Hedaraly, for re-examination.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Not at the moment, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that means that there is a fair expectation

14     that we could conclude the testimony of this witness today.

15             We'll have a break and resume at a quarter past 4.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.26 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is of any consolation to the parties, our late

19     start is due to being very busy not on other matters but busy on this

20     case during the break.

21             Mr. Misetic.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, just during the break I was able to

23     correct or find the error in that exhibit that I tendered at the

24     beginning of today's session.  In column 7 there was a transcription

25     error and a decision by the state prosecutor's office.  The word

Page 6437

 1     "conviction" was put in where word "indictment" should have been

 2     inserted.  We're in the process of correcting that and uploading it into

 3     e-court, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait and see.

 5             Then one of the issues which is of some urgency, and Mr. Gilbert,

 6     I hope that you will forgive us for spend two or three minutes on another

 7     matter which is unrelated to your testimony.

 8             I would like to put on the record the Chamber's decision granting

 9     the Gotovina's request for a stay of the time-limit under Rule 73 (C)

10     pending the issuance of the Chamber's reasons for admitting witness

11     Zdravko Janic's statement under Rule 92 ter.

12             On Friday, the 11th of July, 2008, the parties were informed of a

13     decision taken by the Chamber with regard to an request filed by Gotovina

14     Defence on the 10th of July.  This concerned the request for a stay of

15     the time limited for requesting certification under Rule 73 (C) of the

16     Chamber's 8 of July 2008 decision on the Defence's objections to the

17     admission of Zdravko Janic suspect interview under Rule 95.

18             The Gotovina Defence requested that it be granted a stay pending

19     the issuance of the Chamber's written reasons for its decision granting

20     admission of witness Zdravko Janic's statement under Rule 92 ter, the

21     reasons for this being that both decisions related to the admission into

22     evidence of Zdravko Janic suspect interview.

23             The Chamber would now like to put on the record that this request

24     was grant and that the Gotovina Defence is informed that it will have

25     seven days from the issuing of the reasons for admitting witness Zdravko

Page 6438

 1     Janic statements pursuant to Rule 92 ter in order to file any request for

 2     certification against both of the Chamber's decisions concerning this

 3     witness.

 4             That's now on the record.

 5             The Chamber could imagine that you become nervous, Mr. Misetic,

 6     if you would not have not known about this decision.

 7             Then, Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to --

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- continue.  Then please do so.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Captain, in paragraph 23 of your statement you noted that the

12     estimates of the amount of shells coming into Knin by Colonel Leslie was

13     high.

14             Do you see that sir?

15        A.   Seems a little bit high, yeah.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, Colonel, did most of the people in the headquarters,

17     UN Sector South headquarters defer to Leslie, given his rank and his

18     professed artillery expertise?

19        A.   No, nobody.  It was just a personal comment of myself.

20        Q.   That was your personal view.

21        A.   Yes, about the number and -- could you rephrase the question?

22        Q.   I'm talking about Leslie's high estimates.  Did people in

23     Sector South defer to Leslie because of his rank and because of his

24     professed expertise in artillery?

25        A.   I do, too.

Page 6439

 1        Q.   You do?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Now in paragraph 20 of your statement you note that you were --

 4     the last sentence you say:  "I remember because I was surprised that

 5     shells would be fired at night."

 6             Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes I do.

 8        Q.   On the evening of the 4th were you aware of the military

 9     situation in the Knin area?

10        A.   Not exactly sure of the military situation in the Knin area, but

11     we did drive downtown that night.

12        Q.   Well, on the night of the 4th, let me read you something that

13     Colonel Leslie said, and this is from a video D123.  He says:  "Taking

14     Knin, no.  We have no reports of Croatians being in direct fire range of

15     Knin and there are still lots of Serbs in Knin and in the surrounding

16     hills."

17             D106, General Mrksic on behalf of the ARSK:  "We are maintaining

18     contact, our forces withdrew to positions for the direct defence of Knin.

19     The other range of units are successfully holding their positions."

20             Are you aware of continued fighting going on in Knin on the

21     evening of the 4th, going into the morning of the 5th?

22        A.   No.  I think that the only thing that was going on in Knin that

23     night, there were some small arm fire on a there were some -- a few, I

24     estimated to 30, artillery shell landing in Knin, and there was not a big

25     bad willing going on there.

Page 6440

 1        Q.   Were you aware of any troop movements through Knin?

 2        A.   No, I don't think there were any.

 3        Q.   Well, do you know that, sir, or is that your speculation?

 4        A.   That's the best of my recollection that there was no -- there was

 5     no fighting or heavy fighting or movement in Knin.  I don't think so.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, let me turn your attention to the actual shelling

 7     situation.  And if I could bring up first P596.  Prosecution 596.

 8             Is that -- is that P596, Mr. Usher -- Mr. Registrar?

 9             Now, sir, that is the photograph that was initially put into

10     evidence, something that was taken on the fall, late November of last

11     year.  Let me show you a photograph -- two photographs and I want to show

12     you it via Sanction than would be 1D38-0089, and I would like you to

13     focus on the little shed as the reference point.

14             The reference point on the left is the photograph that just came

15     into evidence, P596.  And the photograph on the right is from a video

16     that was filmed on the morning of the 4th of August, 1995, by a UN

17     employee inside headquarters.

18             Now, Captain, is that what the area looked like or how you

19     observed it back on the morning of the 4th of August, 1995?  And I'm

20     talking about the fog in the distance as well as the tree.  That's over

21     to the right-hand side of the photograph.  Is that how it looked?

22        A.   Yeah, there is a tree there that has been cut, right?  If it's

23     the same little house, I would say that's the view that I had in the

24     morning on the 5th, yes.

25        Q.   So as you look over to the right-hand side, your view is

Page 6441

 1     obstructed by the tree, right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And likewise, because of the fog and smoke in the distance, your

 4     view is also -- was also obstructed on the 4th, wasn't it?

 5        A.   But did you say was it on the 4th or the 5th?

 6        Q.   This is the 4th.

 7        A.   The 4th, okay.  Yes, there were some fog, yes.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we'd like to move this item into

 9     evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  No objections.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D569.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D569 is admitted into evidence.

15             Mr. Kehoe, there seems to be no issue as far as admissibility is

16     concerned.  The witness has answered questions about it.  Nevertheless,

17     these two pictures taken together are raising quite some puzzles for me.

18     Angle of view, trees growing smaller over the years and of course you

19     could -- apparently other structures, for example, if you would like at

20     the right-hand side of the oval there seems to be something of a small

21     structure as well which doesn't appear on the later one.  It -- just for

22     you to note.

23             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Judge.  If I can just put this in a

24     reference point.  The left-hand photograph of course is P596, the

25     photograph that the OTP put in.  The right hand is a still that we took

Page 6442

 1     from a video that was provided by the OTP.  What we have attempted to do

 2     is, using that reference point, and we can give more frames to the Trial

 3     Chamber both left and right to maybe focus this little building in a

 4     little better.  But this was something that has been purported to us in

 5     sending to us by the OTP as having been taken on the 4th of 1995.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But of course then questions arise such as was

 7     it taken from the third floor, was it taken from the bottom, what could

 8     you see over the tree, the trees which at least look far higher on the

 9     right picture than they look on the left one.  So, therefore, I -- I

10     fully accept that it is important to look at contemporaneous photographs

11     or movies as well and not only to the situation as it appeared to be at a

12     later stage but the comparison is -- seems to me to be rather complex.

13             MR. KEHOE:  It is, Judge, and what we've tried to do is obviously

14     our photograph or the juxtaposition of a photograph that was taken in

15     late November of 1997 well into the fall, as my colleague has so properly

16     pointed out, as opposed to something -- a timely photograph that took

17     place the same day in the middle of the summer -- I'm sorry, it's 2007,

18     not 1997, but the exact date I think gives the Trial Chamber as the

19     witness pointed out an accurate view of, number one, the fact there was a

20     tree obstructing his view on the right-hand side, and number two, quite

21     importantly, what the horizon was like between fog and smoke.

22             And, Your Honour, we will gladly take this OTP video and provide

23     additional frames on both sides and maybe it could become yet clearer.

24     We just believe that the juxtaposition of these two photographs at this

25     point would be instructive not only for the Chamber but for the witness.

Page 6443

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I did share with you what puzzles my mind, I

 2     think it's fair, and I don't think that by just the two or three

 3     questions we have resolved what puzzles my mind, and just for you to know

 4     that.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. KEHOE:

 8        Q.   Let me talk to you about several angles, Captain, on that day and

 9     I would like to turn, first, 1D38-0084.

10             Now, Captain, this is the photograph of P597, and the areas the

11     two hills that you had previously talked about in your supplemental

12     statement are A and B.  Do you recall that, sir?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  And this is what you talked about when you observed shell

15     fire on the hill.  Isn't that right?

16        A.   In my testimony, I mentioned behind a small hill and it's one of

17     those two.

18        Q.   Okay.  And, of course, when this -- when you were there at the

19     time, it was August and this was significantly grown up with trees and

20     leaves, et cetera, right?

21        A.   I cannot say.

22        Q.   You don't recall?

23        A.   I don't recall.

24        Q.   Let's go to the next slide.

25             This is a spatial view of the area from your location in UN

Page 6444

 1     Sector South with no elevation to it.  If we can go to the next -- and we

 2     designate the two hills again, A and B.

 3             If we can go to the next slide.

 4             Now, you notice again we have A and B and your angle.  And are

 5     you familiar, Captain, of -- I mean, do you know where these rounds

 6     landed when you saw them going in and about these hills?

 7        A.   Just tell me which of my statement you are talking about.

 8        Q.   Well, you gave us a supplemental sheet from the Office of the

 9     Prosecutor concerning these two locations designating them as A and B and

10     you just gave us an explanation during the course of your testimony about

11     one of the small hills being hit.  Do you recall that?

12        A.   It was behind the small hill.

13        Q.   Okay.  So it was behind the small hill?

14        A.   Yeah.  0855, two round under fire heavy behind small hill.

15     That's what I compare the small hill and I refer to it --

16        Q.   Do you know what is being targeted?

17        A.   No.  It just -- it just hit behind the small hill.

18        Q.   So if we go through either one of these targets, and you can pick

19     either hill, the 1 being the Tvik factory, the 2 being the

20     Elektroprivreda power distribution plant, 3 the Kinjacka factory, 4 the

21     diesel depot, perhaps the railway maintenance yard, 5 the RSK state

22     security.  You have no idea what the HV was firing at, do you?

23        A.   No.  The only thing I can report is what I have seen and write in

24     my notebook at that time.  It was behind the small hill and I don't know

25     what was hit.

Page 6445

 1        Q.   Captain, are you familiar with these various --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You said, well, you gave us a supplemental sheet

 5     from the Office of the Prosecutor concerning these two locations.  Has

 6     the Chamber received any such thing?  I mean, in order to follow the

 7     testimony, of course, we should be able to understand.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I can just read it to you, Your Honour.  I mean, it

 9     says that he also identified on P543, one of these exhibits, that the

10     small hill he referred to in his contemporaneous notes of the shelling

11     was one of the two hills in the picture.  Hard copies of these pictures

12     have also been placed in the Defence locker.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Because that is not evidence.

14             MR. KEHOE:  No, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But I do understand that you indicated that one of

16     these two hills, I think you said in earlier testimony, but the Chamber

17     was unaware of the supplemental sheet, which it now appears to cover

18     exactly the same as what you now testified in Court.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Hedaraly.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  As a matter of course we don't sent those to the

23     Trial Chamber --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm not --

25             MR. HEDARALY:  -- if you want us to do that in the future or --

Page 6446

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm not complaining about it, but if someone

 2     makes reference to a certain document the Chamber is not aware of, then

 3     it's not more than logical, I would say, that the Chamber inquires into

 4     what the document is about and that's what I did and it turns out to be

 5     that it's giving exactly the same information as the witness gave during

 6     his testimony.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Let us go to the next slide.

10             Now, this is the -- if we just orient you, Captain, this would be

11     the -- basically the angle you were talking about as you're looking over

12     hill B, would it not?  And --

13        A.   What you're say is that my observation point from the window --

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   -- this yellow --

16        Q.   That's your observation point.

17        A.   Yeah, let's say, well, yeah.

18        Q.   Can we go to the next slide?

19             So and with regard to these targets, sir, if these -- and I'm

20     just saying if these individual items were targets, you would have seen a

21     series of artillery fire throughout this area, wouldn't you?  I'm not

22     telling you to say that there are targets or not.  I'm saying that if the

23     shelling was taking place at all these areas we put in the map, you would

24     have seen an array of fire going from behind hill B all the way over to

25     the left-hand side of this photograph, wouldn't you?

Page 6447

 1        A.   Can you --

 2        Q.   Just for a frame of reference, sir, each of these targets --

 3        A.   A and B, that's what you're talking about, A and B?

 4        Q.   And the targets that we have, 1 through 5, are the geometry as

 5     put forth on the angle 1 through 5 so you see that juxtaposed behind

 6     those hills.

 7        A.   Yeah, I can -- okay, go ahead.

 8        Q.   So if you saw an array of shell fire from this area, as you say

 9     in your statement that the shells fell all over town, assuming these were

10     targets, you would have seen shelling all the way over from your mound

11     point B to the left-hand side of this photo, wouldn't you?

12        A.   I'm not sure I understand the question.  But maybe I can state

13     what I saw from the window.

14             I saw that hill indicated as B, I saw that hill as indicated as

15     A, and I saw some artillery shell falling behind those hill, and I saw

16     specifically at 0855, as I note in my book, two round behind small hill.

17     I don't know which one of those two it is.

18             I saw that, and I saw a lot more to the left of hill A.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   Which was the town of Knin.  So that's what I saw.

21        Q.   We will get to that, sir.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, excuse me, I'm sorry, I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I know the Court has some concerns about more than

25     one lawyer rising but I raise what I hope is a general matter in

Page 6448

 1     connection -- that I have raised before in connection with demonstrative

 2     evidence like this.  To the extent it is helpful, of course the

 3     Prosecution welcomes such photographs and aids, but in this particular

 4     case, I'm try to go sort it out as well, we're seeing it for the first

 5     time today, and the yellow dotted line appears to be significant but it

 6     appears to me that could be drawn at any number of angles from that

 7     particular balcony going out in any number of direction and depict

 8     something different.  I thought I also understood, by the way, that the

 9     witness was talking about the other balcony in connection with his

10     observations, but if the -- if the relative precision versus the relative

11     generality of the assistance that can be offered by the document is made

12     clear, I think we'll be better -- the Court will be better assisted and

13     so will the parties.

14             But if it's a matter of fine precision, then it's also a matter

15     of knowing precisely where it was taken from, precisely what the angle of

16     view was and a lot more variables need to be fleshed out and the

17     Prosecution needs to be aware of it in order to understand the utility or

18     limitations of the document.

19             So this is a general matter, so I'm sorry to intervene, but it's

20     something that's concerned me --

21             MR. KEHOE:  May I respond to that?  I mean this is their

22     photograph.  This is the photograph that they dropped in our locker last

23     night.  The line in the middle is the location of the photographer, based

24     on the evidence given to us by the Prosecutor, we then did these

25     calculations.

Page 6449

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  First of all, which balcony is the -- I think

 2     as a matter of fact that I ask some additional questions especially out

 3     of concern whether we have the right picture in front of us.

 4             Mr. Tieger, if this Chamber really feels that it is not assisted

 5     by this kind of reconstructions, I think you know the Chamber well enough

 6     to know that the Chamber will not hide this.  That's one.

 7             Second, of course, we should not forget that the further the

 8     distance, the less the impact of five or ten metres difference from a

 9     point of view.  I mean if you're standing 100 metres before a hill, a

10     small hill, then it makes quite a difference -- it can at least make

11     quite a difference whether you move to the left or to the right a couple

12     of metres.  The further the distance, the less impact it has.  So,

13     therefore, I do appreciate that your concerns that the Chamber would not

14     be assisted.  And as you said also the parties are not assisted, then I

15     take it the OTP is not assisted by it.  Of course it seems that Mr. Kehoe

16     thinks that it assists him in getting a better view on what happened.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Well, the --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  While that's understood, Mr. Kehoe, that's --

19             MR. KEHOE:  I just accept what the Prosecution gives us and work

20     with the elements that they gave us.  They provided us --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, let's -- Mr. Tieger has expressed his concern

22     whether this would assist or at least assist the Chamber.

23             Let's proceed.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Your Honour, at this time I'll

25     offer into evidence 1D38-0084, this array of photographs.

Page 6450

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  I think as an additional matter, Your Honour --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  -- THE foundation, because the witness did not

 4     recognise any of these alleged targets and then what these line of sight,

 5     so once again I think it may be something -- I don't know who prepared

 6     it.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Targets are already in evidence in --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's keep -- let's keep matters simple.

 9             Mr. Gilbert, what is put to you by Mr. Kehoe is the following:

10     That if the only thing you saw is that the shells were falling behind

11     these hills, then Mr. Kehoe, on the basis of the evidence presented to

12     this Chamber, takes the position that there's quite a range in the --

13     from left to right behind these hills, where in the view of the Defence

14     and on the basis of what the Defence has presented as evidence to this

15     Chamber, that there are a lot of targets that could be hit or targeted

16     behind these hills.

17             The question is, I think, which Mr. Kehoe did put to you, were

18     you aware of those possible targets and do you have any additional

19     information which would lead you to reasonably assume that the shells

20     falling behind these hills were not falling upon the targets Mr. Kehoe

21     earlier showed to you.  That's the question.

22             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I was not aware of any target.  There were

23     shell falling behind those hill.  There were shell falling out to the

24     left of those hill.  There were shell during that one -- 4th and 5th of

25     August until noon.  There were shell falling all over the place.  I had

Page 6451

 1     and I still never -- I don't think that it was intended for a specific

 2     target.  I think it was harassing fire.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could you tell us what's the basis for

 4     this thought, apart from because what Mr. Kehoe puts to you, is that in

 5     the full width of what you describe, that is the two hills, that behind

 6     the hills, for the Defence, there are potential targets.  So if that full

 7     range, Mr. Kehoe wonders how you could determine that this is harassing

 8     fire rather than targeting any of these military objectives.

 9             THE WITNESS:  In the general context there was firing all over

10     Knin.  You know, were specifically talking to 0855, when in my notes I

11     put behind the small hill.  So somebody is asking me could you identify

12     the small hill.  I'm saying it's one of those two.  Was it a military --

13     was there a military target behind it, maybe yes; maybe not.  I don't

14     know.  But at the time and still now, I'm not thinking that it was

15     hitting a military target.  Because from the morning of the 4th until

16     noon on the 5th, there was artillery fire, under my estimated amount of

17     shell, all over Knin.  So I don't -- I still don't think that it was

18     intended to a specific military target.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think we have explored sufficiently what

20     objective data there are and what the -- apparently what the thoughts of

21     the witness are.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time we offer 1D38-0084 into

24     evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether welcome or not, is it admissible or not,

Page 6452

 1     Mr. Hedaraly?

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  We have no objection to the admissibility, Your

 3     Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Mr. Hedaraly.

 5             Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D570.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D570 is admitted into evidence and that is the whole

 8     series.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Just that whole series.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. KEHOE:  There is more as the angle moves so we will go to

12     1D38-0083 because the witness said that he observed shelling to the left

13     of this photograph.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that is what comes next.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The series as we have seen them until now.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   Now, you noted for us that you stated that there was artillery

21     fire to the left of the photograph that we previously referenced and I

22     asked you, looking at the -- shifting over on to the other side of what

23     you designated as mound A, you see one, the Senjak barracks; two, the

24     Agroprevreda depot; and three, the Tvik factory.  Are you aware of those

25     locations?

Page 6453

 1        A.   No.  That is the first time I read those names there.

 2        Q.   But there was artillery fire straight away left of the mound that

 3     you had designated as A, wasn't there?

 4        A.   There was artillery fire all over town.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time we'll offer 1D38-0083 into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Once again, Your Honour, he has not identified

 9     those specific issues but I guess if this is not an admissibility issue,

10     then we won't object.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D571.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D571 is admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Let me bring up -- thank you, Mr. President.  Let me

16     bring up 1D38-0001 and this is it --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  While that is done, Mr. Kehoe, I find in the

18     previously just admitted, that just admitted I see a number 76 which I

19     don't know what it is about.

20             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry.  Can we flip back to that, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you have access to it -- to another copy,

22     then I'm not going to -- 76, it says.

23             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, I don't see the 76 on that photograph.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Just close to the --

25             MR. KEHOE:  Oh, that is a grid reference, Judge.  When you take

Page 6454

 1     these Google Earth maps, the grid references on the Google Earth --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  It's a grid reference.  Just for me to

 3     know.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Can I go to two up.  Go in reverse order, page 3,

 6     please.

 7        Q.   Now, this is yet a further angle to the left, Captain, from the

 8     UN Sector South headquarters looking downtown.  Do you recognise this

 9     sir?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   And let me go to the next slide, page 2.

12             Now, sir, if I can just blow that up a bit, I have listed here 17

13     locations that have been previously admitted into evidence.  And for

14     reference the all these items were set forth in D131.

15             Are you familiar with all of these locations, sir, and just take

16     a look at the chart to the left.

17        A.   ARSK barracks must be number 10.  I recognise that.  And I don't

18     see the white parliament building.  I don't know if it is named somewhere

19     in there but I cannot figure out on that one.

20        Q.   It is number 3, sir, at the bottom.

21        A.   Number 3, parliament, okay.  And the hospital, I don't know if

22     you're calling it an old hospital.

23        Q.   No, sir.

24        A.   Is there just one?

25        Q.   You're talking about the hospital that was in use?

Page 6455

 1        A.   Yeah.

 2        Q.   Way over to the right, the white building way over to the right.

 3        A.   Is it circled there.

 4        Q.   No, it is not.

 5        A.   That is it not a place that I would recognise.  Okay.  All the

 6     other one, I do not recognise, I do not recognise.

 7        Q.   Well, can we go to the first slide.

 8             Sir, we've taken these 17 items in these locations with the two

 9     mounds, the hill to the left and the hill to the right, as reference

10     points.  Sir, if all of these locations were shelled at some point during

11     the day on the 4th or the 5th, it would have looked to you like the

12     shelling, as you say in paragraph 9 of your statement, the shells fell

13     all over town.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I guess we would need I

15     mean the actual calculations or the basis.  There is no way for to us

16     test the accuracy of sort of if that accurately represents those

17     locations that were described in the previous slide and that is actually

18     the -- and questions being put to the witness.  It just --

19             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, I think that -- I mean the logic

21     behind this is clear.  The data on the map are clear as well.  The

22     earlier evidence is clear also.  Therefore, I would allow Mr. Kehoe to

23     continue.

24             At the same time, Mr. Kehoe, the issue of potential targeting

25     what you identified as military targets is not a new issue with which you

Page 6456

 1     could surprise the Prosecution.  Therefore, with this technical

 2     elaboration of those issues, I think it would be good if you would give

 3     notice to the Prosecution in advance on how you put this into material

 4     which will be put to a witness, because, otherwise, it might be almost

 5     impossible to verify the accuracy of it, and at the same time, of course,

 6     that might cause that we would have to re-call a witness.  I mean, if it

 7     is something new, then of course I can imagine that you would say I'd

 8     rather not disclose this already to the Prosecution, but if it comes to

 9     these technical details, then where the issue is clearly there, I mean,

10     if you read the statement of the witness, it of course came immediately

11     to my mind, but whatever the merits of it are, therefore under those

12     circumstances I think it might a good idea to share some of the technical

13     elaboration that the Prosecution --

14             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I will gladly take them through it.

15     Frankly, it's simple geometry, but I think and I appreciate that it -- it

16     may look a tad bit more complex than it is, but that is what it is.  It's

17     just simple geometry taking the targets that they --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to -- you don't have to explain to

19     me, Mr. Kehoe, that it is simple geometry apart from, of course, at this

20     moment in these pictures that the depth doesn't appear anymore which of

21     course is clear from the picture itself, so I'm not surprised by that.

22             But even in geometry, sometimes mistakes are made and what

23     Mr. Hedaraly is asking is give us an opportunity to verify the accuracy

24     of your work.

25             MR. KEHOE:  You know, and absolutely, Judge, and if I'm mistaken

Page 6457

 1     on the geometry I will stand corrected.  We have tried to check this

 2     geometry over and over but please I would like the Prosecution --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, there's no blame at this point.

 4             THE COURT REPORTER:  One at a time, please, one at a time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Judge.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue simply is whether if we are coming to this

 8     technical presentation of the geometry, whether for the purpose of giving

 9     an opportunity to the Prosecution to verify whether they agree with you

10     that it was accurately done, whether there would be a possibility to give

11     them in advance access to this very technical material.

12             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Your Honour.  If I do these geometric

13     calculations again, I will gladly do that.  I trust there won't be many

14     more of these.  Nevertheless I'm certainly gladly to share the

15     calculations and how it was done with my friends across the bar and see

16     how -- and let them check how we did it and our conclusions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that was what Mr. Hedaraly was asking for.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I don't know how you want to do this.  I

20     was offered 1D38-0001 into evidence at this time.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  No objections Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D572.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D572 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. KEHOE:

Page 6458

 1        Q.   Captain, would it be accurate to say that as you were standing on

 2     the balcony, you had no idea of what potential targets there were other

 3     than the RSK barracks that you notified -- that you talked about before?

 4     Is that accurate?

 5        A.   What is accurate is I was not watching from the balcony.  I was

 6     watching from my office window, which is neither of those angle of view.

 7     And what is accurate is that the shelling was all over Knin.

 8        Q.   And my follow-up question to that is you as you sit here have no

 9     idea what the target was of that shelling, do you, or the targets were of

10     that shell, do you?  Yes or no?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   In fact, sir, when -- you in fact in your statement or in your

13     note when you say that the target of the bombardment was the civilians

14     and this is in your article on page 593, page 3, you also say on 591,

15     your notes at 543 --

16        A.   I do not follow you now.  The article?

17        Q.   Just go to 543 -- go to 591.

18        A.   My article?

19        Q.   First your article.

20        A.   What page.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I insist on short breaks.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I made similar mistakes recently, and that made me

24     even more aware how important it is to give an opportunity to the

25     transcriber and the interpreters to reflect what is said accurately on

Page 6459

 1     the record.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   In page 3 of your article, you note that the targets of the

 5     bombardment were the civilians.

 6        A.   I recall that, but I would like to read it.

 7        Q.   The last paragraph.

 8        A.   Page 3, last paragraph in English.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  It is page 4 of the French, if that assists the

10     witness.

11             THE WITNESS:  I'm reading in English.  I will read it in French

12     because it was writed in French.

13             Where is it?  It's page 3.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Page 3 in the English, sir, and maybe counsel can

15     help with the French.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Page four of the French.  It is the fifth line,

17     fifth or sixth line, "they are the target of" ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The exodus of majority of

19     civilians had started.  They are the target of this shelling."

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you said that, sir, because

22     you were unaware of any other potential targets.  Isn't that right?

23        A.   No, that's not correct.  I said that because I thought that at

24     the moment and I wrote it in an article to public which is -- you know

25     the intent of the article was for public reading, not to come in court,

Page 6460

 1     and that's why the reason why I put it there.

 2        Q.   Take a look at 591, your notes.  P591.  And the time entry of

 3     5.43.

 4        A.   It is on the second day.

 5        Q.   First day, 5.43.

 6        A.   But I started timing at 5.43.  Hmm.

 7        Q.   Can you read the entry for 5.43?

 8        A.    "Notice no fire by location of ARSK seems a bit heavily."

 9        Q.   So you wrote that article knowing, Captain, that you had written

10     in your notes that the ARSK headquarters had been hit heavily at 0543 on

11     the morning of the 4th, right?

12             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think that

13     mischaracterises.  There is no mention of headquarters in the notes.

14             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine.

15        Q.   You hit the ARSK on the morning of the 4th?

16        A.   What I meant by that was the barracks that we talked earlier.  At

17     0543 the shell were landing close to that barracks.

18        Q.   So I reiterate, you wrote that in your article knowing full well

19     that you had documented that an ARSK facility had been hit on 0543 on the

20     4th of August, right?

21        A.   No right, no.

22        Q.   We'll move on.

23             MR. KEHOE:  If I can just have one second here, Your Honour.

24     Excuse me.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 6461

 1             MR. KEHOE:

 2        Q.   Now, let us turn your attention to the morning of the 4th and

 3     your activities, and you did in fact go to the ARSK headquarters with

 4     General Forand at approximately midday on the 4th, did you not?

 5        A.   I'm not sure if it was the ARSK headquarter.  But we went to a

 6     place where there was an ARSK representative, yes.

 7        Q.   And prior to that time, had there been communication with the RSK

 8     authorities?

 9        A.   Not myself.  It was the headquarter Sector South contact, I'm not

10     sure.

11        Q.   Let me play you a video, D327, if I may.

12             This is two ARSK officials on the morning of the 4th, talking

13     about communications with the UN.

14                           [Videotape played]

15             MR. KEHOE:  Go back to the beginning, please.

16                           [Videotape played]

17             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] At 4.14 I received a phone call

18     from liaison officer from headquarters who was our government liaison

19     officer for UNPROFOR that he had received information from an operational

20     organ within UNPROFOR from Sector South command that the Croats would say

21     be attacking us.  Miroslav Sekolic:  We were informed 18 times by various

22     officers, French, these informing us we will be attacked in the morning

23     at 5.00 a.m."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

Page 6462

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  On channel 5 I did not receive French translation,

 2     but I don't know where the problem lies, and for the completeness of the

 3     record --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Could we replay it, Judge?  It's very brief.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we please replay the --

 6                           [Videotape played]

 7             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] at 4.15 I received a phone call

 8     from a liaison officer from headquarters who was our government's liaison

 9     officer of UNPROFOR that he had received information from an operational

10     organ within UNPROFOR from Sector South command that the Croats would be

11     attacking us.

12             Miroslav Sekolic:  "We were informed 18 times by various

13     officers, French, these and others, informing us that we would be

14     attacked in the morning at 5.00 a.m."

15             MR. KEHOE:

16        Q.   Captain, were you the French officer who called the RSK

17     headquarters to tell them that they were going to be attacked?

18        A.   No, I was not, I'm sure not.

19        Q.   And do you know who was?

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   How much French officers worked at UN Sector South on the morning

22     of the 4th, French-speaking officers beside you, General Forand, and

23     Major Bellerose?

24        A.   Major Dussault.  But what I think that may refer to is another --

25     when I heard it I thought it was from French forces officer liaison

Page 6463

 1     officer, or from Knin, but it was certainly not me, and a rough thing,

 2     maybe four or five people speaking French from the UN headquarters

 3     Sector South.

 4        Q.   Do you have any knowledge that this phone call going to the RSK

 5     to tell them that the attack was coming?

 6        A.   Never.

 7        Q.   Now, you went with, your notes P591 reflects, and this is at the

 8     third page, reflects a meeting at approximately midday.  Do you see that,

 9     sir.

10        A.   12.10 to 13, meeting with Karpalak and press conference in Knin,

11     yes, I see that.

12        Q.   Before we go get to that, you mentioned some Canadian officers

13     that were French-speaking.  Were there any officers from France at UN

14     Sector South in Knin?

15        A.   Maybe a couple.  I don't know.

16        Q.   You don't recall?

17        A.   No.  I would have to look into our nominal roll.

18        Q.   Now, in the morning of this meeting in midday, and I turn your

19     attention to P543.  And as we're coming up with that exhibit, who went to

20     UN Sector South at midday with you?

21        A.   We went to some kind of ARSK barracks where there were people

22     there.  That's what you mean, it was --

23        Q.   I apologise.  Who went to the meeting with the RSK at midday on

24     the 4th of August?

25        A.   Me, the driver, General Forand, for sure.  Probably a UNHCR rep,

Page 6464

 1     a UN civilian rep, and maybe another person.

 2        Q.   Did Mr. Roberts go?

 3        A.   Maybe, maybe.

 4        Q.   Did Colonel Ratsouk go?

 5        A.   I don't remember that name.

 6        Q.   Colonel Nikolai Ratsouk?

 7        A.   I don't know that person.

 8        Q.   Now, what was the purpose of the meeting that you went to?

 9        A.   It says there meeting with Karpalak and press conference in Knin.

10     I recall being in that room.  That was a crowded room, I was inside with

11     the people when that took place.  There was maybe six or seven people

12     from RSK and five, six, from the UN representative.  That was a crowded

13     room.  I don't know what was the meeting of that and I see there that it

14     says and press conference in Knin.  I don't know that there was a press

15     conference.  I don't know if it was a joint, I don't know.  I don't

16     recall.

17        Q.   I'm sorry.  This is -- I was looking for P343, I apologise.

18             Now during this meeting, the UN provided the RSK with a radio,

19     didn't it?

20        A.   I don't know what are you referring to.  Just give me the name of

21     the paper, because with the number I cannot refer to.

22        Q.   I'm going to bring up a exhibit here on the screen, P343.

23        A.   That's what I see there.

24        Q.   Okay.  If we -- on the left --

25        A.   [Inaudible].

Page 6465

 1        Q.   This is a sitrep of 4 August 1995 and if we can go into what is

 2     been designated as page 5.  It's a -- keep going, please.

 3             If I may, it's page 5 at the top.  Three more pages in, please.

 4     One more.  Well, we can just move ahead and ask the question.

 5             Captain, did the UN -- here it is.  If we go to that

 6     paragraph towards the end of the meeting with the warring factions, it

 7     talk about the meeting with Colonel Kosta Novakovic at approximately

 8     11.30.  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Just give me paragraph, H, I?

10        Q.   Paragraph H.

11        A.   H?

12        Q.   Just take a look at paragraph H.

13        A.   One, two, three, four, okay.

14        Q.   It's what we had.

15             Can you see that, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I'm reading it through the second paragraph now.

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   Okay.  I have read paragraph H.

19        Q.   Now, if you read that -- that last sentence in the third

20     paragraph down in H, it notes:  "[Indiscernible] commander RSK stated he

21     speak on the radio and tell the people to allow the UN to help.  It was

22     agreed that HQ Sector South would remain in contact with HQ ARSK."

23             Now to do that, did the UN -- do you see that, sir, I'm sorry.

24        A.   I will read it again.  "Commander RSK state that he speak on the

25     radio ... "  Okay.  Yeah.

Page 6466

 1        Q.   Now, to do that did the UN provide the ARSK with a UN radio.

 2        A.   No.  I'm reading that now for the first time and what I

 3     understand is that he would speak on his own radio channel and tell his

 4     ARSK personnel to allow UN to help.

 5        Q.   And I am talking to them about that -- the and I will tell you

 6     that you General Forand in P330, paragraph -- page 5, paragraph 4, said

 7     that, "we provided them for the purposes of the coordinating humanitarian

 8     assistance a radio."

 9             Is that true?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   Did the UN provide the RSK authorities for -- did they provide

12     them with an APC?

13        A.   I don't -- I don't know, and I don't think so.

14        Q.   Do you recall one way or the other, sir?

15        A.   No, no, I don't recall anything.  But I don't think we did that.

16        Q.   Well, the evacuation in fact began to be planned at that meeting,

17     did it not?

18        A.   No.  I would say no.

19        Q.   Let me read you P401, if we could bring that up.

20             This is a presentation by General Forand and if I could have --

21     if we just use the numbers the 0530638.

22             And if we can go to the last paragraph on that page, General

23     Forand says:  "I understand now that the RSK supreme defence took the

24     decision at about noon on 4 August to abandon the Krajina."

25             Did you know that, sir?

Page 6467

 1        A.   I would not be as precise as General Forand did on his notes or

 2     speak -- briefing there, but that -- yeah, around the 4th or the 5th.

 3     But at some point, yeah, they did -- they took the decision to abandon,

 4     yeah.

 5        Q.   Well, this says that the decision was made at noon on the 4th.

 6     Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I see that.

 8        Q.   Is a that -- accurate or based on your recollection?

 9        A.   What I just told you what was my recollection, it was somewhere

10     on the 4th or on the 5th.

11        Q.   Well, you went to a meeting -- I'll try to slow down here.  You

12     went to a meeting later on on the 4th and if we can go on and bring up

13     P592.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, for the understanding of this document,

15     the line "I understand now," is of course something that might be

16     relevant.  So if you put to the witness what happened or at least what

17     was in this document I'd prefer to --

18             MR. KEHOE:  General Forand said that he was at this meeting and

19     then it became clear to from a variety of other information that they had

20     planned the evacuation as of noon on the 4th of August.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   Now, this is the minutes of your -- or these are your notes, are

24     they not, sir, of your evacuation -- I mean, excuse me, of the meeting

25     that you went to at approximately 1800 on the 4th, as we can see from the

Page 6468

 1     first line?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3        Q.   And in the first paragraph, there was an ARSK chief of residents

 4     evacuation.  Do you see that, sir?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Do you know who that person was?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   So based on your understanding at the time, there was an ARSK

 9     officer or an official that was specifically in charge of the residents

10     of evacuation.  Is that right?

11        A.   I would prefer to say that we were provided with that information

12     at the meeting.  I took note, and I wrote that as it was given to me.

13     But it -- it looks like there was one person there that hold that title.

14        Q.   Now, at this meeting, sir, they had outlined -- and let me turn

15     your attention to D182.

16             D182.  This is another memo of that meeting by Colonel Ratsouk.

17     The date here says 8th of July, but the parties have stipulated that this

18     is in fact an inaccurate date and it emanates from the meeting on the 4th

19     of August.

20             Now, in the centre of that paragraph it notes that the -- if you

21     can just read that at the second paragraph in?

22        A.   I will read the whole thing.

23        Q.   Please.

24        A.   Can I please be told who is Colonel Ratsouk.

25        Q.   Colonel Ratsouk is one of the individuals that I've asked you

Page 6469

 1     whether or not he was at the meeting at noon time on the 4th.

 2        A.   I don't know him, but maybe it would help me to know who that

 3     person is.  Is that a UN Sector South representative or --

 4        Q.   He is, sir.

 5        A.   And can I know more about him.

 6        Q.   He was Russian Sector South representative.

 7        A.   And he was working with us at UN Sector South?

 8        Q.   He was.

 9        A.   I have no recollection of that.  I should have got my list.

10     Okay.

11        Q.   He was UNCRO from Zagreb.

12        A.   Attached to us.  Attached to us, probably.

13        Q.   Or to UNCRO, sir.

14        A.   Okay.  So he was with us, so I'll take that as -- I'm not sure,

15     but I will take that.

16             Okay.  I've read it.

17        Q.   Now.  Let me show you one last document in conjunction with

18     Mr. Ratsouk's comment and that would be D337, which is a cable from

19     Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan on the 4th of August.  And we go to the -- after

20     you look at the front page can we go to the last paragraph on the next

21     page, paragraph 4.   And blow up paragraph 4.

22        A.   So it's Akashi in Zagreb talking to New York?

23        Q.   Correct.

24        A.   At what time?

25        Q.   There's no stamp on.  There's a stamp on it, sir, but there has

Page 6470

 1     been some question what the exact time is, but it is the 4th.

 2        A.   It would be after 1900 at night.  I don't know.

 3             Okay.  I read it.

 4             Okay.

 5        Q.   Now, so, at the time this meeting was ended, were you -- did you

 6     know that in fact the evacuation to Banja Luka had been planned and was

 7     going to take place or was taking place?

 8        A.   The -- not by the UN, but the ARSK or the Serb authority in Knin,

 9     they were trying most probably to evacuate their people.

10        Q.   And your understanding was that the evacuation was going to be to

11     Banja Luka?

12        A.   No, I don't know where the evacuation was to go, no.

13        Q.   Well, did -- do you have any idea where Mr. Ratsouk -- Colonel

14     Ratsouk or Mr. Akashi got the information that it was supposed to go to

15     Banja Luka?

16        A.   No, I don't know.

17        Q.   Now there was also some -- some reservation about providing fuel

18     to the RSK in order for them to evacuate, wasn't there?

19        A.   My understanding that there was an intention from the UN to

20     provide fuel not to the ARSK but to the civilian population in need.

21        Q.   Well, the paragraph 4 says that that had to be spoken about,

22     there is a wide range of policy, political and military and logistical

23     implications that must be examined with UNHCR before we can contemplate

24     such a commitment and accordingly, Sector South has been advised by UNCRO

25     to make no commitment to the Knin authorities other than the matter will

Page 6471

 1     be examined tomorrow.

 2             But fuel was given, anyway.  Isn't that right?

 3        A.   What I saw is in front of our UN compound that there is older

 4     people that came with some tractor and some bicycle and motor bicycle and

 5     they were requesting fuel and that was given to them.

 6        Q.   Let me shift subjects and cover a couple things that you

 7     mentioned in your statement and that had to do with after you became the

 8     refugee officer, as you say in paragraph 34 of your statement.  And you

 9     note in paragraph 34 that -- excuse me, paragraph 35 that "people were

10     too afraid to go back home.  What I mean by afraid is afraid for their

11     physical safety, they were worried about what would happen to them if

12     they went back and no one could guarantee their safety.  This is why most

13     of the people ultimately went back to Serbia."

14             Captain, let me ask you a question.  When you were talking to

15     refugees were in there, how many people told you they still had either

16     husbands or sons that were still in the ARSK?

17        A.   I had -- I never discussed that.

18        Q.   Did you never ask that question?

19        A.   Never.

20        Q.   Now, turning to that issue, as you're in --  the refugee officer,

21     how many soldiers actually were allowed into the base by the UN?

22        A.   I think, to my recollection, one.

23        Q.   One.

24        A.   Yeah.  And when we find out, he was sent out.  And that was not

25     an agreement.  He came to the camp without proper identification or I

Page 6472

 1     don't know what, but when it was found out that he was in the camp, he

 2     was sent out.

 3        Q.   Now you were, as you described, the refugee officer, and let me

 4     show you something -- read something to you from D514 from Major

 5     Bellerose.  He notes on the second page of this article, "because we

 6     opened up the camp to displaced persons to provide security, there were

 7     few Serb soldiers that came to try to get refuge within our camp.  So we

 8     said to them 'if you want to come in, you have to disarm, because if we

 9     let you in with weapons, we're putting ourselves at risk.'"

10             Now, do you know anything about these soldiers that were allowed

11     in that Major Bellerose is referring?

12        A.   I would like to have a look.

13        Q.   Sure.  If we can bring that up on the screen it is D514.  It

14     comes from an article called One Soldier's Story, Major Claude Bellerose.

15     D154.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course we could look at it.  But are you aware of

17     soldiers required to disarm and then let into the camp?

18             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I became the refugee officer, the date is the

19     25th of August.  So refugee has started from the 4th to the 25th.  In

20     that period, you know, I was just like another staff officer at the UN

21     headquarters handling refugee.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But whatever time, are you aware of soldiers given

23     access to the camp but were required to disarm first?

24             THE WITNESS:  No.  But there was one during my term.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think you explained that.

Page 6473

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether there is any need then to give

 3     the details of Mr. Bellerose.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine, Judge, I was just bringing it up because

 5     the witness wanted it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  I just have a few more questions on this, Judge, and

 8     I will conclude.

 9        Q.   Captain, in addition to what captain -- Major Bellerose is

10     talking about, were you aware of soldiers being taken from the Knin

11     hospital and being brought into UN Sector South?

12        A.   No, I'm not aware, and it would not be adequate.

13        Q.   What do you mean by adequate?

14        A.   It's not something that was in the policy to my knowledge to

15     bring soldier on to our camp.

16        Q.   Well, sir, there were 38 people who were turned over to the

17     Croatian authorities because they were suspected of war crimes by the

18     Croatian government, 38 individuals that were turned over by UN

19     Sector South to Croatian authorities.  And you were in charge -- you were

20     the refugee officer at the time.  Who were these 38 people?

21        A.   I don't want to question the Defence but at what date?

22        Q.   They were turned over in September of 1995, after you had become

23     the refugee officer at the UN camp.

24        A.   To my recollection, we have not returned any people to the Croat

25     authority while I was the refugee officer.  I think I state somewhere

Page 6474

 1     when I went on leave, and that might be that time.

 2             Can we check that?  If you give me the exact date --

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  It's paragraph 35.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  If you have the exact date of that, I would

 5     be willing to check, because must have been after the 16.  Before the

 6     16th those people were not turned in, if they were turned in after.

 7             MR. KEHOE:

 8        Q.   So you were aware that the Republic of Croatia wanted the

 9     suspected war criminals, people suspected of war crimes that were in the

10     custody of UN Sector South, you were aware of that, weren't you?

11        A.   Yeah, yeah, yeah they were looking for that.

12        Q.   And?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just -- Mr. Hedaraly, were you referring to

14     paragraph 34 or 35?

15             MR. HEDARALY:  35 about when the witness was on leave which he

16     was looking for to assess to be able to answer the question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes, I thought you were referring to the

18     refugees that were wanted to be interviewed as --

19             MR. HEDARALY:  I was referring to the date that he asked for when

20     he was on leave.  But you're right, that is also in the statement.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. KEHOE:

24        Q.   You were aware of that, weren't you, that these negotiations for

25     the turning over of people suspected of war crimes was ongoing?

Page 6475

 1        A.   What I was aware of is that the Croat wanted to have people in

 2     the camp that were suspected of war crime from their perspective, not

 3     from an UN perspective, you know --

 4        Q.   And these negotiations with the Republic of Croatia were going on

 5     for six weeks after Operation Storm, weren't they?

 6        A.   No.  I would say one week after I was the refugee officer,

 7     approximately, so it gives me a specific date, some -- sometime around

 8     the 1st of September --

 9        Q.   25 of August, paragraph 35.

10        A.   Yeah.  But I mean one week after I became the refugee officer

11     that those requests came in, you know, that they were looking for those

12     name and all that.  Just to situate it, it would be around the 1st of

13     August that my recollection is they were looking for this list of war

14     crime -- war crime -- just as we said earlier, you know, the -- they

15     wanted a certain number of people because they allegedly, from their

16     perspective, says that they wanted for a crime against what, and that was

17     about the 1st of September, if I recall that's what we are looking for,

18     the period, so I would say 1st September.

19        Q.   Well, sir, you went on -- and then you went on leave, according

20     to paragraph 35, from the 16th of September to the 7th of October.  Did

21     you come back to UN Sector South at that point?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you come back as the refugee officer?

24        A.   No.  There was no more refugee when I came back.

25        Q.   When you came back did you ask how the request by the Republic of

Page 6476

 1     Croatia for the release of these suspected war criminals, how that was

 2     resolved?

 3        A.   No, did I not.

 4        Q.   You didn't ask one question?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   So you have no knowledge about the circumstances under which 38

 7     individuals were turned over to the Republic of Croatia by UN

 8     Sector South?

 9        A.   Correct.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I have no further questions of this

11     witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

13             We will have a break until five minutes past 6.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cayley, are you ready to cross-examine the

17     witness?

18             MR. CAYLEY:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just for timing

19     purposes, Mr. Kehoe has robbed me a lot of my thunder, and so I think I

20     will only be about ten minutes, essentially.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Gilbert, you will now be cross-examined by

22     Mr. Cayley, who is counsel for Mr. Cermak.

23             Please proceed.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cayley:

25             MR. CAYLEY:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have Defence Exhibit 226.

Page 6477

 1        Q.   Captain Gilbert, if you could please direct your mind to

 2     August after the Croatian authorities had retaken Knin, my question for

 3     you in looking in this photograph, do you recall ever visiting these

 4     buildings?

 5        A.   Not 100 percent sure but this left building might be the one that

 6     we went to for the 4th of August, 1210 meeting that we discussed earlier.

 7        Q.   And that would have been a meeting with the ARSK authorities?

 8        A.   Yes.  What I was referring to, the small room when there were 12

 9     people.

10        Q.   And after the ARSK authorities had left Knin and the Croatian

11     authorities were back in charge in Knin, do you ever recall visiting that

12     building again?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   I have got to put this to you because I have instructions on

15     this.  So this is actually the building in which Mr. Cermak and his small

16     team operated.  Were you aware of that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   So when you say in your statement that when you met with

19     Mr. Cermak on the 10th of August with General Forand, and I can direct

20     you to that.  It's paragraph 26 of your statement.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You say that you met with Mr. Cermak in the white parliament

23     building on or about -- around the 10th of August, do you see that?

24        A.   Yes, I see that.

25        Q.   Is it possible that you're mistaken about that, that you didn't

Page 6478

 1     in fact meet in the white parliament building?

 2        A.   My initial impression was that it was in the white parliament

 3     building.  Now that you're showing me that, it could have been that one.

 4     I don't recall 100 percent sure.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You said earlier in an answer to Mr. Kehoe that --

 6     and this is actually toward the end of your cross-examination by him and

 7     you were speaking about the refugees in the camp and he was asking you

 8     about the Croatian authorities' desire to investigate them for war

 9     crimes.  Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Are you aware that the issue of screening the men in the camp for

12     war crimes was something that was being discussed at a high level in

13     Zagreb between the United Nations and the Croatian government?

14        A.   Yes, most probably.  Yes.

15        Q.   And you were aware of that because you were close to General

16     Forand.

17        A.   Not really.  It's because I was the refugee officer and they were

18     asking a lot of question about what would happen to them.

19        Q.   And -- sorry.

20        A.   And I could not provide them any answer and that was a long

21     process, and I tried to -- to reassure them, but by that I mean that it

22     was a higher decision to return the refugee, yes.

23        Q.   And in terms of this higher discussion process, were you aware

24     that Mr. Akashi himself was involved in those discussions with

25     representatives of the Croatian government?

Page 6479

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. CAYLEY:  If, please, the witness could be shown D29.

 3        Q.   Now, do you recall that in your response to Mr. Kehoe you

 4     stated:  "What I was aware is that the Croats want to the have people in

 5     the camp that suspected of crimes from their perspective, not from UN

 6     perspective."

 7             Do you recall stating that?

 8        A.   Yeah, I do.

 9             MR. CAYLEY:  If, please, we could look at the second page of the

10     document, paragraph 5.

11        Q.   And, if, please, Captain Gilbert, you could look at the first two

12     sentences in paragraph 5.  And let me know when you've read them.

13        A.   Yes, I have read them.

14        Q.   Now, this is a document -- if you could go to the front page.

15     Did you see this is a document from Mr. Akashi in Zagreb to Kofi Annan in

16     New York?

17        A.   Yeah, I saw that, but is it the same one that was shown to me

18     earlier and I went to the last paragraph?

19        Q.   Yes, this is the same document.

20        A.   Okay.  So I saw that it was Akashi and I saw that it was those

21     first two sentence, yeah.

22        Q.   So were you aware in August of 1995 that it was Mr. Akashi's view

23     that the government of Croatia had a legitimate interest in actually

24     seeking to determine if any of the men in the camp you were involved in

25     war crimes?  Were you aware that that was the UN view at the time?

Page 6480

 1        A.   Not on the 7th of August.  This document is dated 7th of August?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   So, at that time no.  But when I was the refugee officer, it

 4     became known to me.

 5        Q.   That --

 6        A.   They were looking for suspected war crime criminal.

 7        Q.   But specifically my question is this:  Were you aware at any time

 8     that Annan -- that -- I'm sorry, that Mr. Akashi had said that the

 9     Croatian authorities had a legitimate interest in seeking out those

10     persons in the camp who they suspected of war crimes?

11        A.   No.  But is this paragraph 4 exactly what it states?  I --

12        Q.   If you can go back to it, let's go and you can have another look

13     at it.  That's what he says.

14        A.   At which paragraph?

15        Q.   It's paragraph 5, it's the second sentence.

16        A.   I was not aware of that time but I'm reading those three or four

17     first line and Mr. Akashi saying has a legitimate interest, so that's

18     his -- that's what he wrote, so he must have meant that.  But at that

19     time I didn't know.

20        Q.   And he was the special representative of the Secretary-General

21     wasn't he, in Croatia, at this time?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So he -- in essence, his view was the view of the UN in Croatia,

24     yes?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6481

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. CAYLEY:  Your Honour, I don't have any further questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

 4             Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready?

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gilbert, Mr. Kuzmanovic will now cross-examine

 7     you.  He is counsel for Mr. Markac.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic

11        Q.   Your statement, P589, if that could be put up on the screen,

12     please.  The first paragraph of your statement and if you have that in

13     front of you in the binder, feel free to refer to it.

14             Sir, do you have the statement in the binder in front of you?  It

15     might be easier for you to refer to it in your binder than looking at it

16     on the screen.

17        A.   But I don't know what is P584.

18        Q.   It's your witness statement that you gave to the Office of the

19     Prosecutor in January of 2008.

20        A.   Okay.  I have it in front of me.

21        Q.   Okay.  The first paragraph says you became a captain in 1987.  Is

22     that correct?

23        A.   Of course it is correct.

24        Q.   Okay.  I was just unsure, because if you look at P593, and that

25     will probably have to be pulled up on the screen for you, on the first

Page 6482

 1     page.  The beginning part of it says:  "After spending two years as a

 2     regimental Sergeant Major I have since 8 July 1995 been performing the

 3     duties of military assistant to the commander of Sector South."

 4             Can you explain that, please?

 5        A.   What is your question?

 6        Q.   Can you explain in your article here by Captain Alain Gilbert,

 7     P593, you describe yourself as a regimental Sergeant Major.  Can you

 8     explain the difference between your rank and what a regimental Sergeant

 9     Major is?

10        A.   This there is a mistake in the translation there.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   What I -- if it has been translated okay, it would have said a

13     regimental adjutant.  That is what it says in French.

14        Q.   Okay.  So --

15        A.   Yeah.

16        Q.   So the English translation is incorrect.  You have been a captain

17     since 1987?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   Okay.  Why don't we stick with P593 for a moment.

20             Did you have a chance to compare this translation to your

21     original, by the way?

22        A.   Yes.  Last night I read it.

23        Q.   Okay.  Other than that mistake, are there any other mistakes that

24     you happened to catch?

25        A.   No.

Page 6483

 1        Q.   Okay.  The second paragraph talks about how the headquarters is

 2     made up and that I'm assuming is the headquarters of Sector South.

 3     Correct?

 4        A.   Yes, this is correct.

 5        Q.   The -- it discusses the make-up of general officers from the

 6     various nations, and the second sentence says, and I will read it to you

 7     and then I'll have a question for you:  "Some of them are lazy and rarely

 8     see the need to work to the end of the week.  Others have the habit of

 9     turning towards Mecca at certain times of the day."  And then you end it:

10     "Be that as it may, I assure you once more of my pride in belonging to

11     the category of Canadian."

12             Now, my question to you is, did you feel that you and your

13     Canadian comrades had some better level of professionalism and experience

14     than the other members of the Sector South staff?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And was there a problem that you had with other people praying

17     and using their religion during their work?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   What was the need for the comment of habit of turning towards

20     Mecca at certain times of the day?

21        A.   Because that is what was taking place in the headquarter.

22        Q.   I'd like you to go to the next page, please.

23             The second paragraph talks about many people reading this will

24     have served in UN headquarters.

25             Well, who was your target audience for this article?

Page 6484

 1        A.   The member who have -- [Interpretation] The members who

 2     subscribed to Citadelle, la Citadelle.  It's a magazine.

 3        Q.   So it is a Canadian audience, in other words?

 4        A.   [In English] Yes, Canadian and more regimental audience.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And feel free -- I know French is your native tongue.

 6     Feel free if there is some problem to refer to that.  We have excellent

 7     interpreters, so --

 8             The remainder of that paragraph discusses, among other things,

 9     that there are -- and I will read that section:  "I would confirm that

10     the problem of command coordination and control is repeated in the

11     absence of political solutions which I admit are difficult to adopt.

12     Each organism gets bogged down in justifying its existence, its role in

13     the field and the chain of command which directs it, whether it is the UN

14     civilian police, the UNHCR, or the civilian representatives.  The

15     military commander is thus confronted by a multitude of political

16     obstacles which he could well do without.  This is what I observe there."

17             And my question to you is:  This difficulty in coordination and

18     in problems of command and control, is that something that you observed

19     in Knin during your time there, in Sector South?

20        A.   Yes, yes, this is what the article is referring to.

21        Q.   And is it true that in essence often times, for lack of a better

22     term, the right hand in Sector South didn't know what the left hand was

23     doing because of this lack of control?

24        A.   If you could be more precise.

25        Q.   Sure.  You said that there was a difficulty in command and

Page 6485

 1     coordination among the various organisations that were headquartered in

 2     Sector South over which General Forand had command.  Correct?

 3        A.   He was the Sector South commander.  Not sure if the highest UN or

 4     civilian representative there was really under him.  They were at some

 5     kind of level, but he was certainly the military authority commander,

 6     yeah.

 7        Q.   So there was difficulty in communications within Sector South

 8     despite who was in military command.  Correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And that was in a time when there was absolutely no fighting

11     going on.  Correct?

12             I mean you got there in June of 1995, right, so before

13     Operation Storm there was some difficulty even before there was any kind

14     of fighting going on in knowing essentially what was going on and who was

15     speaking with whom.

16        A.   Yes, in a lesser extent, but, yes.

17        Q.   When you served in Sarajevo in July of 1992, were you serving

18     under General McKenzie?

19        A.   He was the Sarajevo UN commander there, so there's all kind of

20     unit working for him.  I was part of the unit that was serving for him.

21     But not directly.  You know, I have never met him, but I served under

22     him.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'd like to go back to your statement, please.

24     And before we do that, I guess, you served as an aide to General Forand,

25     you stated.  What exactly did you do?  Can you give us a description of

Page 6486

 1     your role before Operation Storm?

 2        A.   Agenda, overseeing the resident staff.  I also saw myself as

 3     somehow his body-guard or being personally responsible for his security

 4     and accompanied him during various Sector South unit visits before

 5     Operation Storm, yeah.

 6        Q.   Can you describe what you mean by agenda?  Would you set the

 7     agenda for the day?

 8        A.   Yeah, yeah.  Not for the day itself, but for planning of visit or

 9     conference in Zagreb or something.  I was making the liaison with the

10     authority and putting the calendar together.

11        Q.   Who else was on that resident staff?

12        A.   There was Corporal Desroches, who was living there.  He was a

13     driver.  And master corporal Ellis, the cook.

14        Q.   Anyone else?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Did you have any interpreters?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Was your position in terms of the things that you did the same

19     other than you mentioned you were refugee -- in charge of the refugees.

20     Did your position change at all after Operation Storm?

21        A.   Yeah, it changed when I became the refugee officer, but I would

22     say between the period of the 5th of August until the became the refugee

23     officer, we were to create new accommodation on Sector South, new --

24     because we were living outside so I was responsible to put that up, and

25     less of the calendar, and, let's say the day-to-day running of the

Page 6487

 1     office.

 2        Q.   Were you the person -- would you be -- let me try to think of a

 3     different way to phrase this.

 4             When General Forand would go to a meeting, would you be with him

 5     at all the meetings?

 6        A.   Yes.  But not all of them.  There's some in my statement that I

 7     was not there and I know that General Forand went to other meeting

 8     without me.

 9        Q.   Now, at that time Colonel Leslie was the Chief of Staff.  What

10     was your relationship with Colonel Leslie?

11        A.   He was the Chief of Staff until, I would say, around the 4th of

12     August and the new Chief of Staff came in, and because of the war it

13     could not left, so he was still in the headquarter for four or five days,

14     I would estimate, and I had a good relationship with Colonel Leslie also.

15        Q.   I'd like you to refer to paragraph 35 of your statement, please.

16        A.   Okay.

17        Q.   And you -- in this paragraph you discussion the refugees.  And

18     I'll go to the sentence that starts with "they" on the third line,

19     "they," and I'm presuming that those are the Serb refugees.  Correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   "Were worried about what would happen to them if they went back

22     and no one could guarantee their safety.  This is why most of the people

23     ultimately went back to Serbia."

24             And my question to you is, is it your understanding that these

25     refugees originally came from Serbia into Sector South and then went back

Page 6488

 1     to Serbia?

 2        A.   No.  My understanding is that they were from Serb ethnic origin

 3     living in Knin, I would say, for at least the last three years, and then

 4     there was no other -- no other choice than going back to Serbia, Belgrade

 5     or going back to -- I'm mentioning Serbia but I think that when they left

 6     the camp they all went back to Belgrade and were left there.

 7        Q.   Were you aware at any time of any efforts that were undertaken by

 8     the Croatian government to try to ensure their safety if they stayed?

 9        A.   Oh, yes, that was mentioned.

10        Q.   So you, as refugee officer, were aware of statements made by the

11     Croatian government to try to keep these people from leaving.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.  When General Cermak came and met with the refugee, that was

13     the message that was passed to them.

14        Q.   I'd like to refer to paragraph 29, please.

15             And the third line, which is -- starts:  "When we got there,"

16     meaning to General Forand's residence.  Correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   "We could see that the entire house had been thrashed, completely

19     vandalized allegedly by the Croatian soldiers, special police, military

20     police and the Croat occupation forces in general."

21             Now, is there anyone else that you wanted to add to that list?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   How do you know that -- can you identify what a special police

24     member looks like?

25        A.   No.

Page 6489

 1        Q.   Can you identify what a military police member looks like?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What do they look like?

 4        A.   They had a special brassar [phoen] identifying them as military

 5     police Croat.

 6        Q.   Did you see this alleged vandalisation occur?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Is it true at least by identifying these specific individual

 9     groups that you're guessing which if anything of them might have

10     committed this?  I mean, you don't have any personal knowledge of this.

11     Correct?

12        A.   I did not witness the destruction and be able to identify the

13     member who did that.

14        Q.   I mean, it obviously happened, right?

15        A.   Yeah.

16        Q.   But you can't identify which if any of these people in these

17     groups conducted this.  Correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   That's all I have.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

22             Mr. Hedaraly.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Just one brief point, Your Honour.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Captain Gilbert, just a minor point for

Page 6490

 1     clarification.  You've just been asked a question and you answered that

 2     General Cermak came and told the refugees to stay.  But in your

 3     statement, you say that these refugees were afraid for their safety

 4     because no one could guarantee the safety.  How could you reconcile this,

 5     please?

 6        A.   [Interpretation] Well, General Cermak during those meetings, said

 7     that they were welcome, that they were welcome to leave the camp and go

 8     home in Knin, return to their homes in Knin, where the Croatian forces

 9     would make sure that they would be safe and that the camp -- refugees in

10     the camp hesitated and did not really wish to go back in -- in town in

11     Knin because they were afraid for their safety.  So maybe this is a --

12     this reconciles this, but at least -- all I can say is that what General

13     Cermak was saying did not reassure them at all.

14        Q.   Do you know why they feared for their safety?

15        A.   If I remember well, at first, on the 4th and the 5th and a few

16     days later, I wasn't in charge of the refugees yet but some refugees left

17     and went in town but they came back to the camp because they were -- they

18     were afraid.  I can't really say what exactly they saw or -- or in what

19     circumstances they might have witnessed horrible things, but they weren't

20     prone to going back, obviously.  They did not want to go back to Knin,

21     and you know, when you've got a great number of refugees rumour spreads

22     very fast.  People talk and word to mouth goes around on what has -- what

23     happened, so it's -- obviously no refugee wanted to go back to Knin

24     because they feared for their safety.  Maybe because of that.

25        Q.   Thank you, Captain.

Page 6491

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Has the re-examination caused any need to put

 3     further questions to the witness?

 4             MR. KEHOE:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  [Interpretation] Mr. Gilbert, this brings your

 6     testimony to an end in this case.  I wanted to thank you for coming here

 7     to The Hague and for answering all questions put to you by the parties

 8     and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... out of the

11     courtroom.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know who to address.  Is your next witness

14     available already?  We have 20 minutes left.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  I don't believe so, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I know that there was no other witness scheduled for

17     today, and --

18             MR. HEDARALY:  But she is here and will be available tomorrow

19     morning.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  She will be available tomorrow morning.

21             Under those circumstances, if there is no other procedural issue

22     to be discussed at this moment --

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I do have one question.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And maybe I'm mistaken in this impression.  The

Page 6492

 1     next witness is not protected.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  No, not to my knowledge.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  There was some confusion on my part.  So I'm

 4     glad it was cleared up.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any other matter?

 6             If not, we'll adjourn and we'll resume tomorrow, the 15th of

 7     July, at 9.00 in the morning, in Courtroom I.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.40 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of July,

10                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.