1 Monday, 14 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- On resuming at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon Your Honours. Good afternoon to
7 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 I do understand that there are some bar table movements
11 continuing at this moment, and I do understand that Mr. Registrar will
12 provide us soon with a complete list in a memo so that we can further
13 deal with the matter after the Chamber has looked at the documents as
15 Mr. Misetic.
16 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, there is one more that I have not
17 alerted the registrar to, I don't believe. We have sent it to the
18 Prosecution. It is a compilation that we did in response to a question
19 posed by Judge Kinis. If I may call it up and tender it, it is
21 This is a document, it's a compilation from a document that's
22 well over a thousand pages long so we put together a compilation. It is
23 related to the 18 or -- it's meant to address the 18 August 1995 order of
24 Mr. Moric which was the subject of a question by Judge Kinis several days
25 ago. It is criminal complaints that were filed by the MUP after the 18th
1 of August for crimes that were committed before the 18th of August.
2 And it is from the various police administrations and police
3 stations that were subject of the Moric order of the 18th of August.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said criminal complaints. The list
5 however says list of charges filed against. From my understanding a
6 charge filed is not exactly the same as a criminal complaint lodged. And
7 from what I remember is that for some of them it says decision by the
8 state prosecutor's office conviction. I wasn't aware that prosecutors
9 also are convicting, but I'm just trying to understand what we have been
10 presented with.
11 MR. MISETIC: I will actually check that, Your Honour, but I
12 think it -- let me clarify that category, Your Honour. I -- but it is
13 meant obviously category 8 is what we're talking about in terms of how
14 the proceedings ultimately wound up.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ended, yes.
16 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it is more or less -- it has been extracted
18 from the long list.
19 MR. MISETIC: Yes. We tender it, Your Honour. I'm going to be
20 contacting Mr. Margetts, because Mr. Tieger and I had a conversation.
21 I'm not sure -- they have some documents from the state attorney's
22 offices but if they need the underlying document we will be happy to give
23 it to the Prosecution so they can review it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: I think that is correct, Your Honour. As
1 Mr. Misetic indicated we will I think require the underlying document and
2 will be looking at that and will need some opportunity to both review
3 this document and the underlying materials before we can respond.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how much dime do you think you would need
5 for that?
6 MR. TIEGER: In fairness, Your Honour, I -- given the size of the
7 underlying materials, perhaps it would be more prudent to take a quick
8 look and get back to the Court before suggesting arbitrarily a particular
9 time. I think I'm likely to overestimate the amount of time out of
10 caution without seeing the materials but once we see them I think we can
11 give a more realistic assessment.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And that could be two, three day so you can give a
13 realistic --
14 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- assessment of the time you would need. Okay.
16 Then that's on the record. I take that we need a number.
17 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D568.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D568 is then marked for identification for the time
21 being, Mr. Registrar.
22 Then any other procedural matter. If not, Mr. Hedaraly, are you
23 ready to call your next witness?
24 MR. HEDARALY: We are, Your Honour, just before, during the
25 re-examination of Mr. Janic last week there was a document that was shown
1 and not tendered. That is 65 ter 1417, and the Prosecution would like to
2 tender it at this time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To be quite honest to you, it does not
4 immediately come to my mind what 65 ter 1417 is. Could we just have a
5 brief look at it on the screen.
6 MR. HEDARALY: Of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- is there any --
8 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: This is the publication giving information about the
10 functioning of Croatian institutions and --
11 MR. HEDARALY: Exactly, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it is it a document of what size, because
13 we have --
14 MR. HEDARALY: I believe it's 45 pages and we would tender the
15 whole document because we will be relying on various portions of that
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's the document which is already in
18 two languages because I see on my screen that it is 76 pages, but most
19 likely half in English, half in B/C/S. Yes, it is page by page half
20 English half B/C/S. But it is not a 45-page document, apparently.
21 Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P588.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P588 is admitted into evidence. Since there are no
25 Mr. Hedaraly, apart from this issue, are you ready or will it be
1 Mr. Russo to call the next witness?
2 MR. HEDARALY: It will be me, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, the witness, as I saw, prefers to
4 express himself in French, although he gave his statement and signed his
5 statement in English. Do you have any idea whether he prefers to speak
6 French or English in this courtroom?
7 MR. HEDARALY: I believe he will testify in French, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: In French.
9 And MR. HEDARALY: And because it is the 14th of July, I will be
10 asking questions in French as well to the witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course I do understand. I didn't know that
12 it was celebrated in Canada
13 Mr. Usher, can you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Hello, Mr. Gilbert.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hello.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If I understood you well, you would rather speak
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Before you testify, our
21 procedures -- our procedure requires us that you make a solemn
22 declaration. The text will be handed to you by our usher.
23 I apologise for my French. I will not continue in French. You
24 would rather speak French, and I think I would rather speak English. But
25 I will follow your testimony in French.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will say
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: ALAIN GILBERT
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. You may sit
7 down. Mr. Hedaraly.
8 MR. HEDARALY: Before Mr. Usher sits down, if I can give him a
9 copy of his statements and exhibits.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.
11 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Good morning, captain.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Could you please give us your name for this transcript?
15 A. My name is Alain Gilbert.
16 Q. Captain Gilbert, do you remember having been interviewed by the
17 investigators of the OTP on January 29, 2008
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you made a statement to the OTP based on this interview
20 statement which you signed on February 5, 2008?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You re-read this statement yesterday? Have you read this
23 statement once again yesterday?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Does this statement reflect faithfully what you told to the OTP
1 during the interview with the investigator?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what -- the content of this statement reflects the truth, as
4 far as you know, as far as --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Finally, if the same questions were put to you again today, same
7 questions of those that were asked when you were interviewed by the OTP,
8 would you answer in the same way?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I have
11 document 5319 be on the screen.
12 Q. Captain Gilbert, could you confirm that the statement that we see
13 now on the screen is the one that we mentioned earlier?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the document
16 5319 be tendered into evidence under Rule 92 ter.
17 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
19 Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number 589.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P589 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. HEDARALY: If we could please have 65 ter 5215, please.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, you have heard the request to slow
25 down for the interpreters? No. Well, now you have.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Gilbert, we see an aerial photograph on the screen. Is this
4 the base of the UN in Knin in 1995?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. On this picture, you circled in red the place where your office
7 was. Is that it?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. HEDARALY: If I could now have 65 ter 5335, please.
10 Can I have the assistance of Mr. Usher to provide a photograph
11 for the witness to place on the ELMO.
12 There seems to be a problem with uploading in e-court, but they
13 are going to be resolving it shortly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, is 65 ter 5335, is that an article
15 written by this witness, which you sought to be uploaded, or is it
16 something else?
17 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour. It is a picture. A photograph.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It's the one that we have now on our screen?
19 MR. HEDARALY: Yes. Yes, Your Honour, it is.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
21 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Gilbert, do we see the -- does this photograph represent the
23 base of the UN in Knin?
24 A. Yes, part of it in Knin.
25 MR. HEDARALY: If I could have the assistance of the Mr. Usher so
1 the witness can mark this picture.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gilbert, with the electronic pen, could you
3 please circle your office on this photograph?
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. Can you please a B next to it for B like bureau, office in
7 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, at this time ...
8 [French on English Channel]
9 MR. KEHOE: Unfortunately, my French is not what it should be.
10 We got the French translation on the English channel.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is true. I was listening to the English
12 as well. But what Mr. Hedaraly asked is to have the two documents to be
13 admitted under one number. That is the aerial photograph and this
14 photograph marked by the witness where his office was marked with the
15 letter B.
16 MR. KEHOE: There's no objection to that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No objection to that. Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P590.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P590, consisting of one aerial photograph and one
20 photograph marked by the witness, is admitted into evidence.
21 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
22 tender the following exhibits that are joined to the statement. 65 ter
23 5214, those are the notes made by the witness on the morning of August 4,
24 1995. 65 ter 5216, the text of an article written by this witness. And
25 exhibit 438 which is the minutes of a meeting held on August 4th by
1 General Forand and the representative of the RSK.
2 All these documents are attached to the statement and the basis
3 for their tendering can be find in the statement of the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, one by one first --
5 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. KEHOE: I have no objection to any of those exhibits. I
8 would ask that they be subsequently numbered as opposed to one bulk
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's how I understood Mr. Hedaraly's request,
11 to have them one by one.
12 MR. KEHOE: Pardon me.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, first the notes, I do understand
14 handwritten notes made by the witness on the morning of the 4th of
15 August, 5214.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes exhibit number P591, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P591 is admitted into evidence.
18 The next one being 438, minutes of a meeting held on August the
19 4th with General Forand and representative of the RSK.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes exhibit number P592, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P592 is admitted into evidence.
22 And then the --
23 MR. HEDARALY: 5216.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was 5216.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes exhibit number P593, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P593 is admitted into evidence.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.
3 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]
4 Q. For your information, there is one document that is joined and is
5 mentioned on paragraph 28 of this statement, but it has already been
6 tendered into evidence as D197 -- D297.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are informed now. That's what you said,
9 isn't it?
10 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you. If we could have 65 ter 5336 on the
11 screen, please.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Captain Gilbert, let me show you a few
13 photographs that were taken from the third floor balcony of the UN base
14 in Knin. This will soon be on the screen in front of you.
15 A. I see them.
16 Q. Does this photograph show part of what you saw from your office
17 when looking at Knin?
18 A. Yes. This picture was taken from the balcony. If I remember
19 well, the window of my office must have been about ten metres off on the
20 right. But this is what I would see from my window.
21 Q. In the notes that you made on the morning of August 4th as well
22 as in your statement, paragraph 15, for example, you refer, and I will
23 say -- quote in English, because your notes are in English [Previous
24 translation continues] ... building.
25 [Interpretation] In your statement you say that you were using
1 that parliament white building as a reference. Can you see it on this
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could our usher please help us once again so that the witness can
5 mark the document and if you could circle it red, please.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Excuse me, could we please have a indicate that
7 the photograph was taken? Thank you.
8 MR. HEDARALY: It was last year, I believe, in the fall of 2007.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.
10 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge, my recollection is that it is in
11 late November of 2007. I think that's about right.
12 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe. That would be the fall.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Could you kindly place the letter P alongside
14 the parliament building, please?
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Could we save this photograph and
18 move on to the next photograph. It's a series of three.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, do you want at a later stage to tender
20 the unmarked photograph as well or just the marked version?
21 MR. HEDARALY: There will be two marked and one unmarked, and I
22 will tender the series of two marked and one unmarked as one exhibit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now have the unmarked version again on my
25 MR. HEDARALY: The second page of this document should be a
1 different picture. Here we go. Thank you.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Captain Gilbert, this photograph is a view you
3 had from your balcony slightly to the right. Is that right?
4 A. That's right.
5 MR. HEDARALY: [Previous translation continues] ... of that
6 document, please.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Once again, Captain, in this picture we see the
8 view or part of the view you had from your office on the 4th of August,
9 1995. Is that right?
10 A. Yes. I realise on looking at this photograph that there were two
11 balconies in front of the building. My office was on the right-hand side
12 ten metres away. So, in fact, it's a second balcony which I indicated a
13 while ago. My office was to the right of that and that was a view I had
14 from my window.
15 Q. In your notes and in your statement in paragraph 17 and 18, you
16 refer to a small hill. In English you say [In English]... hill.
17 [Interpretation] Can you tell us whether you can see this small
18 hill you referred to?
19 A. It's certainly one of those two hills, but on looking at this
20 photograph I don't know which hill is the smallest. But in paragraph 17
21 what I mentioned was that it was behind the smallest of the two hills.
22 Or hillocks.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
25 tender these three photographs into evidence. And I would like just one
1 exhibit number. The first photograph was marked by the witness.
2 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge. That one question will be a little
3 confusing on cross, so I would ask that we put separate numbers for these
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to -- I was confused by the answer about
6 the two balconies.
7 First question: Are all the photographs taken from the same
9 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, they are, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And then, Mr. Gilbert, was this balcony which we see
11 prominently in the front of this picture, was that the balcony in front
12 of your office or is it the one in the back that was in front of your
13 office? I see two balconies on this photograph, the one from which the
14 photograph is taken and other one further away. Which one is the one in
15 front of your office?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one which is the furthest away,
17 my window did not give on to the balcony but on to the window next door.
18 So to be very precise, it's a window which is to the right-hand side five
19 metres approximately from the furthest -- the balcony that is the
20 furthest away.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So it is the -- I don't know whether it is one
22 building or two buildings, but at least the balcony further away was the
23 balcony of the building your office was in, but, you say, your office did
24 not give entrance to the balcony but was to the right of that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. And that -- we're
1 talking about the same building. It's one and the same building.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently two parts of that building, I can't
3 see that on this photograph.
4 Then I have one further question: To the right of that further
5 away balcony seen from the building or facing the building?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the building.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the furthest away from what we see on this
8 photograph at this moment?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Registrar, we have now three photographs. The first one
12 marked by the witness, Mr. Registrar.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar suggests, and I'm inclined to follow
15 him, that we first have the unmarked photograph with just a tiny little
16 bit of the corner of the balcony and that would be, Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that's 65 ter 05336 and becomes
18 exhibit number P594.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P594 is admitted into evidence.
20 Now the second exhibit is the same photograph but now marked by
21 the witness with the white parliament building.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes exhibit number P595, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's not the one that's on our screen at the
24 moment but P594 -- no, I'm -- the second exhibit now, the photograph
25 marked by the witness is P595 and is admitted into evidence.
1 The next one, unmarked photograph.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P596.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P596 is admitted into evidence.
4 And, finally, the last one with the two balconies.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes exhibit number P597, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P597 which we now see on our screen is admitted into
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could we go back to P590. Captain, I'd like to clarify what you
11 have just said to the Presiding Judge of this Chamber.
12 The balcony from which the photographs were taken, the balcony
13 we've just seen, are those the balconies that we see on the right hand of
14 this building here?
15 A. Yes. I can tell you where it is if you like.
16 Q. That's not necessary.
17 A. To the right-hand side of this building.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to read
20 a short summary of the witness's statement, and I shall read it out in
22 [In English] Alain Gilbert was an officer in the Canadian armed
23 forces stationed in Knin in 1995 with UNCRO as General Alain Forand's
24 aide-de-camp. On the morning of 4 August 1995, he observed the shelling
25 of Knin from his office on the top floor of the UN headquarters. He
1 recorded some of his observations regarding the shelling that morning in
2 his notebook, including the fact that MRLs were used at 5.00 a.m.
3 In addition, he also provides evidence on the shelling on the
4 morning of the 5th of August, 1995, and, in particular, an initial
5 barrage of approximately 400 shells that fell between 5.19 and 5.25.
6 Mr. Gilbert also noticed burning and looting in Knin and around
7 after Operation Storm. He became the refugee officer at the UN camp on
8 25 August 1995
9 go back to their houses but were afraid of doing so for their safety.
10 This concludes my summary, Your Honours, as well as my direct
12 [Interpretation] Thank you, Captain.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Hedaraly.
14 Mr. Kehoe, I take it that you would like to have the lectern.
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to cross-examine the
18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, just get a little situated I'll be
19 ready to go.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gilbert, you will now be cross-examined by
21 Mr. Kehoe, who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
23 Q. Good afternoon, captain. I would like to ask you a few questions
24 from your statements and from your article and if we jump around a little
25 bit just bear with me, but I would direct your attention to the documents
1 before you as we go through things.
2 Now, the first item that I would like to talk to you about,
3 Captain, is the statement that you make in paragraph 36 of your
4 statement, 589.
5 Now, captain, you had come to Knin on the 8th of July and you
6 note in your -- paragraph 36 that there were no Croats living in Knin in
7 August of 1995.
8 Now, when you were in Knin, did you talk to the Serb population
9 as to why there were no Croats living in Knin?
10 A. No. This was through our briefings in the morning which we had
11 at the UNHCR and cooperation meetings that this information was conveyed
12 to me, I arrived in Knin rather, on the 28th of June.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: I am mistaken if I read in paragraph 36 that five
15 per cent of -- oh, no. I see that, now I see that. It's the last line,
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KEHOE: I apologise.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I made a mistake.
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. Nevertheless, I mean, did you converse with the Serb population
22 in Knin prior to Operation Storm?
23 A. Not really.
24 Q. When you say "not really," what do you mean, not really? Did you
25 talk to them?
1 A. No. The only people were employees in the camp that were Serb,
2 but I didn't speak to any locals, any local Serbs living there.
3 Q. And when you -- when you spoke to the Serbs that were in the camp
4 did you ask them what happened to the Croats in Knin?
5 A. No. But I know -- I did know what happened to them.
6 Q. What did you know?
7 A. Undoubtedly, more than undoubtedly, they were expelled from the
8 town of Knin in 1992.
9 Q. Now let me focus in on the time-frame prior to Operation Storm
10 and, if I may, I'd like to direct your attention to your article which is
12 MR. KEHOE: And if we could bring that up on the screen.
13 Q. This is a -- page 3 in the English. I'm not sure what it is in
14 the French.
15 MR. HEDARALY: It's tab 5 in the binder the witness has, just for
17 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much, counsellor. I don't know how
18 Your Honour wants to handle this between the B/C/S and the English and
19 the French, but I just ask for Your Honours's guidance as to what comes
20 up on the screen. I'm going to obviously deal with the English version
21 and the witness can deal with either one, I'm sure.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if there would be any -- if they're not
23 fully congruent, then we will --
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. And I'm dealing, captain, with the third page in the English
3 about middle of the way down and you're talking about the shelling on the
4 1st of August and note about -- about the individuals coming to the camp.
5 Women, children, and old people who had not left the night before, either
6 by personal choice or because they had no means of transport, were hiding
7 in the basement.
8 And I wanted to talk to about your comment there, had not left
9 the night before. And I take it that, sir, you know then Major
10 Bellerose, do you not?
11 A. It's a major, yes, he is a major. Not --
12 MR. HEDARALY: [Previous translation continues] ... the Article
13 is the 4th of August, not the 1st of August.
14 MR. KEHOE: My apologies. I was talking about the 4th. If I
15 said the 1st, I stand corrected.
16 Q. Yes. Major Bellerose in his diary, and this is exhibit 513,
17 noted on the 28th of July of 1995 that the locals were leaving the area.
18 I'm going to go through a sequence of events, captain, and just ask you
19 some questions about it.
20 Again, on the 29th of July, again in D513, Major Bellerose said
21 that the people in Knin are very nervous, a lot of them are leaving town
22 and refugees from Bosansko Grahovo are arriving.
23 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. HEDARALY: I think we had last week once again, that if the
1 testimony or something of someone else is being shown to confront the
2 witness, the question should be asked of him. He talked about the 4th in
3 his article. I think he should first be asked if he has any knowledge of
4 these people on the 29th of July and then be confronted with
5 Mr. Bellerose's statement or diary or testimony. I think that's what we
6 had this discussion last week about and Your Honour referred to a
7 transcript portion of a few weeks ago.
8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, we did not have the discussion in this
9 fashion and what I'm doing is highlighting a sequence of events of items
10 that have come into evidence with Prosecution witnesses and then asking
11 the witness based on what he said in his article. Now, this is not the
12 sequence of events as presented by the Prosecution. I'm sorry.
13 MR. HEDARALY: But he has not testified or brought any evidence
14 on the 28th of July, so he should first be asked the question given a
15 chance to then be confronted.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly is asking you to first, without
17 referring to other evidence, to elicit from the witness what he knows
18 about the event, and only after that, to put to him what other
19 evidence --
20 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, this is items that are already in
21 evidence and are part of the record. What I am doing is bringing to this
22 witness's attention items that are part of the record and then asking him
23 questions based on evidence in the record. That's what I'm doing here in
24 an expeditious form, as opposed to taking these items sequentially. The
25 jumping off point is his comment that these people had left the night
1 before and I am simply taking him through a sequence of events or items
2 that have come into evidence already. This is not something that I'm
3 pulling out that hasn't come in from a Prosecution witness already.
4 MR. HEDARALY: And --
5 JUDGE ORIE: That apparently is not the issue. The issue
6 apparently is that Mr. Hedaraly, and I would have to review exactly what
7 we said about that, if you could give me a source, Mr. Hedaraly, I'll try
8 to find it. The issue is that prior to putting to the witness what is in
9 evidence already, first ask the witness without putting that to him what
10 he knows about it.
11 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I will take the long way around and this
12 is going the long way around.
13 MR. HEDARALY: Well -- 4881 to 4883 --
14 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, I wasn't finished speaking.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I asked --
16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Hedaraly to give me the reference.
18 MR. KEHOE: And I was responding to a --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So at that moment, I think, Mr. Hedaraly,
20 polite approach would have been not to interrupt Mr. Kehoe. At the same
21 time I thank you for finding the point -- the reference for me.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe. And I'll check exactly what was said
23 for this first question, if you take what you call the long route.
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Captain Gilbert, on the 28th of July, did you see a general
3 mobilisation of ARSK soldiers in Knin?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So when a Prosecution witness Major Bellerose wrote in his diary
6 on 28th July general mobilisation is happening in town, you don't know
7 anything about that?
8 A. I don't know what you mean. These are the words spoken by Major
9 Bellerose. I don't remember that there was such a general mobilisation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I'm sorry for interrupting you, but due
11 to the quick exchange of views now the reference doesn't appear on the
12 transcript, so I have difficulties in finding it.
13 Could you please, Mr. Hedaraly, repeat the reference you just
15 MR. HEDARALY: I will do in a second, Your Honour. I'm just
16 getting a little lost myself. If you'll just give me a few minutes I'll
17 be able to answer.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine, but please not by interrupting Mr.
19 Kehoe. Wait until he has finished his sentences.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Captain, were you aware that on the 28th of July that
23 Bosansko Grahovo had fallen to the HV?
24 A. No. I don't remember the operational sequence of the various
25 parties present. This was not part of my job. I don't remember, no.
1 Q. Were you aware, Captain that on the 28th of July, the president
2 of the Republic of Serb Krajina, Milan Martic, declared a state of war
3 throughout the entire Krajina?
4 A. I don't remember anything of this kind.
5 Q. Staying on the 28th, were you aware that the local population was
6 leaving the area?
7 A. It's quite possible.
8 Q. I'm going to ask you, did you know it or did you not?
9 A. No, I didn't know.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
11 MR. HEDARALY: 4861, 4862.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly. Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
13 MR. KEHOE:
14 Q. Now, again going further, on the 29th of July, moving yet closer
15 to Operation Storm, were you aware in Knin that the civilian population
16 was leaving?
17 A. It's likely that the population in Knin was beginning to leave
18 around those dates.
19 Q. Well, tell us what you know about that, captain, about the
20 population leaving Knin around those dates.
21 A. Well, there was a state of panic of a sort in Knin. There were
22 rumours circulating and saying that there would be a Croatian attack
23 against Knin in the next few weeks or days. In fact, together with
24 General Forand, when we did our rounds and visits the UN forces, we were
25 called back to the camp, because there was some emergency. There was
1 something going on, because there was a state of panic in Knin.
2 I could say that there was a -- a likely attack on the part of
3 the Croatian on the 28th and 29th of July. I believe that the civilian
4 population had started to leave Knin already.
5 Q. And did they leave -- and how did the civilian population leave?
6 A. Whichever way they could, and they crossed through Bosnia
7 Q. Now, Captain, did this exodus of the civilian population continue
8 from the 28th and the 29th through the eve of Operation Storm?
9 A. Yes, I agree with that.
10 Q. So you would agree, sir, that the exodus of the civilian
11 population throughout Knin all this time was quite extensive, wasn't it?
12 A. I don't agree with you particularly, but there was an exodus of
13 the people living there.
14 Q. Now, sir, during this same time-frame did you also see a build-up
15 of military personnel and military vehicles in and around the Knin area?
16 A. No.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... read you the testimony of
18 another Prosecution witness, Jan Elleby, who was a CIVPOL police officer
19 who noted that now as we move -- this is on page 3474.
20 "Question: Now as we move through July of 1995 you note in your
21 supplemental information sheet, and it says well, actually -- I think it
22 begins on P214, that you saw a lot of soldiers on the street but in your
23 supplemental sheet you observed an increased number of RSK troops in Knin
24 in this period. In the period building up to Operation Storm, can you
25 tell us about that a little?"
1 "Answer: Yes. The assessment of the picture in the streets in
2 the town was that from a few days in July up to the end of July, that
3 there came more and more military vehicles, more and more uniformed
4 military personnel."
5 "Question: And did you and other CIVPOL monitors observe that
6 while you were driving around the area?"
7 "Answer: Yes."
8 Is that informing by Mr. Elleby consistent with your observations
9 in Knin at the latter part of July?
10 A. That information stems from Mr. Elleby. That's what he remembers
11 from those times. I don't remember a huge build-up as this gentleman has
13 Q. Well, there was a military presence in Knin, wasn't there, prior
14 to Operation Storm?
15 A. Yes, there was a military presence. There was.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.
17 And that military presence, sir, was quite significant, wasn't
19 A. No. I can't quantify it any way and say it was significant or
20 not. I know that there was a military presence since one could come
21 across soldiers when one went to the residence, from the camp to the
23 Q. Well, sir, as of the 5th of August the speculation in UN
24 Sector South was that Knin would not fall until 48 hours later and
25 possibly not till a week later. Isn't that so?
1 A. What I remember is that it might have been 24 hours, 48 hours, a
2 week before, or even more. So that is right. If you say 24, 24 hours,
3 48 hours, that's right. Personally, I thought that might have been a bit
5 Q. Let's turn directly to your article and go to page 4 in the
6 English. The first full paragraph after the carry-over paragraph.
7 A. [In English] The one that start with: "We expect"?
8 Q. Yes. Yes, sir. I'm just waiting for it to come up on the
9 screen, captain, if I may.
10 The second sentence in: "At 5th August at 0519, 1995, another
11 intensive artillery barrage, more than 500 shells fall on the town in six
12 minutes. The forecast of when the Croatian forces will arrive in Knin
13 proceed apace. 48-72 hours to one week or more."
14 So the belief in Sector South was that there was at least another
15 48 hours before Knin was going to fall. Isn't that so?
16 A. [Interpretation] I don't know what people believed in
17 Sector South, but that's what I believed.
18 Q. And that belief was based on the fact that you thought that the
19 ARSK had the military strength in Knin to fight off the HV for between 48
20 to 72 hours to one week. Isn't that right?
21 A. Yes. But I believed it was a matter of defending Knin from the
22 outside and protecting it that way.
23 Q. And the -- Knin was in fact defended out on various front line
24 areas, wasn't it?
25 A. I don't think that Knin was defended by several front lines.
1 Q. Well, there was a front line, was there not, that was manned by
2 the RSK with both personnel and artillery. Isn't that right?
3 A. Probably. I don't know where those lines were, but we have every
4 reason to believe that the RSK had soldiers there that were defending
6 Q. Is your testimony, Captain, that you don't know where the front
7 lines were and where the ARSK positions were on the front line?
8 A. When I was there, we visited some of the positions, some of the
9 Serb positions and some of the Croatian positions with our aides and
10 liaison officer, but I cannot describe to you the front lines and the
11 Serb defence line as they were protecting Knin.
12 Q. So, you knew that they were on the front line but you don't know
13 where the front line was? And I'm talking about the ARSK now.
14 A. That's correct. We don't know what the -- how many soldiers they
15 had either.
16 Q. So if -- if I can just take that once step further, if there was
17 shelling somewhere on the front line between the ARSK and the HV, you
18 wouldn't know who was shelling whom, would you? You would just hear it?
19 A. Could you repeat your question again. I had a problem with the
20 translation. I would like to hear it in English, please. Could I have
21 it again, please?
22 Q. Absolutely, captain. And if at any time that you don't
23 understand one of my questions, just tell me, okay?
24 Captain, so if there was shelling going on on the front line
25 between the HV and the ARSK and you were hearing this from the UN
1 Sector South headquarters, you wouldn't know who was firing on whom,
2 would you, because you didn't know where these positions on the front
3 lines were?
4 A. I was in the Knin camp, on -- the artillery fire from the 4th and
5 5th of July went over our camp and reached Knin. So I knew that these
6 shots came from the south. But I cannot believe that this would be
7 anything other than Croatian artillery fire that was over our heads and
8 landed in Knin, but I didn't know exactly where the front lines were but
9 I was able to detect where the shots came from and where they landed.
10 Q. Was there shelling going on on the front line area, Captain?
11 A. I don't know about that. Probably. But this was not part of my
12 responsibilities. There was certainly some firing on the front lines,
13 but I wasn't involved in that.
14 Q. When you were in the UN Sector South headquarters, could you hear
16 A. On the 4th and 5th of August, yes, very well.
17 Q. And when you heard this firing on the front line, isn't it a fact
18 that you don't know who was firing on whom, do you?
19 A. I knew who was firing at who. The -- the shooting came from the
20 south, went over our heads, and fell on Knin.
21 Q. If I may, sir. Let us pull up P102.
22 Captain, this is UN sitrep report from UNMO's headquarters
23 Sector South dated 4th August at 2000 hours. If we can go three pages
24 in, the bottom of the page. Reports from KenBat. You know the KenBat
25 locations, captain?
1 A. You're talking about KenBat or CanBat 1?
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
3 A. I couldn't tell you today where that was. But, yes, I knew where
4 the Kenyans were.
5 Q. They were between Strmica and up on the Dinara, weren't they?
6 A. I can't tell that you. I don't know.
7 Q. Just bear with me here, Colonel. As of -- this is 2000 hours on
8 the 4th. There are 1230 bomb reports from the Kenyan Battalion, 638 from
9 the ARSK, 592 from the HV HVO. Do you have any idea whether or not when
10 you were in UN Sector South if you heard that type of artillery fire
11 taking place?
12 A. Your Honour, I have problems with the translation. Could you
13 tell me the question in English again, please? Could you repeat it?
14 Q. Sure. Let me just read it to you again. I think it might be on
15 your screen.
16 As of -- this is it 2000 hours on the 4th there are 1230 bomb
17 reports from the Kenyan Battalion, 648 from the ARSK, 592 from the HV
18 HVO. Do you have any idea whether or not you -- when you were in UN
19 Sector South you heard that type of artillery fire taking place?
20 A. I didn't hear the firing. I certainly couldn't have heard the
21 firing coming from the Kenyans.
22 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you could not hear artillery fire
23 from the location of the Kenyan Battalion?
24 A. I don't know. Your Honour, as far as I remember, the Kenyan
25 positions were far removed. I can't tell you exactly where they were
1 compared with our headquarters in Knin. But the shots that fell and the
2 shots that could be fired, I'm talking about artillery fire in the Kenyan
3 sector, well, those shots, I did not hear. That's for sure.
4 Q. Okay. Let us turn our attention, and we'll get back that in a
5 bit when we start talking about the artillery that you did in fact
6 observe in Knin and we'll talk a little bit about this. And let us go to
7 the evening of the 3rd. Do you know that on the evening of the 3rd,
8 Colonel Leslie talked to Major Dussault and they told Mr. Bellerose, and
9 this is it in P546. They went into the ops room and Mr. Bellerose say I
10 went into the operations room to speak to them and they told me that they
11 had received a message stating that something was likely to happen the
12 following day.
13 Now, do you recall Colonel Leslie telling General Forand that he
14 had received that message at 2300 and that something was likely to happen
15 the following day?
16 A. No, I didn't know about this, about this discussion and I don't
17 know whether Colonel Leslie said that to General Forand or not.
18 Q. Well, had he told General Forand that, you being General Forand's
19 aide-de-camp, would you have known about it?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, one second, please.
23 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, he answered the question. Now it's
24 calling for speculation.
25 MR. KEHOE: I took the question as if he had told Forand, would
1 this gentleman, this captain who was his aide-de-camp, would he have
2 known about it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, of course it is speculative to the
4 extent that we do not know whether it was told to Mr. Forand and
5 therefore not whether the message could have been passed to Mr. Gilbert.
6 At the same time, Mr. Kehoe is asking if you'd look at it in a more
7 general way as to whether information received by Mr. Forand would, under
8 normal circumstances, read -- reach Mr. Gilbert, and that question is
10 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
11 Mr. Kehoe, may I take that that's what you wanted to ask --
12 MR. KEHOE: You're absolutely right.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you choose the right formulation right away, then
14 Mr. Hedaraly is --
15 MR. KEHOE: No, no, Your Honour I was just waiting for the usher
16 to --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I meant if you initially had formulated the
18 question as I did it and --
19 MR. KEHOE: Yours was much better, Judge.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that.
21 MR. HEDARALY: I agree with that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It avoids objections by Mr. Hedaraly.
23 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. KEHOE:
1 Q. Did you understand? Do you want me to repeat the question,
3 A. [In English] Yes, if you're allowed to do it, do it again.
4 Q. Okay. Captain, in the normal course of events, if Colonel Leslie
5 had called General Forand at 2300 hours on the 3rd of August and told him
6 that he received a message that something was likely to happened the
7 following day, is that something that you would in the normal course of
8 events have known about?
9 A. Most probably because at that time my recollection is that we
10 were at the residence at 2200 at that time and I would have known because
11 I was at the residence, if it is something that they would have discussed
12 at the headquarter earlier, maybe I would not have been informed.
13 Q. Now, what time did you get the call from Sector South
14 headquarters that something was going to happen?
15 A. I said headquarter in my deposition. I'm not 100 percent sure
16 but it was from a headquarter so it could be Canadian, it could be
18 at 0330 hour on the 4th of August.
19 Q. And what time was it that you left to -- with General Forand to
20 go back to Sector South headquarters?
21 A. Around 0400.
22 Q. Now, prior to you leaving, did General Forand give any order, you
23 know, to warn other UN personnel that they should get back to the base?
24 A. No. No specific UN personnel other than the -- that there was
25 one, the -- the Czech colonel living on the first floor in the same
1 residence we were, so he left with us.
2 Q. Now, Captain, at this time, there were people that were staying
3 in the UN camp, weren't there? For safety reasons, I mean.
4 A. No, I don't think so.
5 Q. You don't recall that?
6 A. More than I don't recall. I don't think so. There was nobody
7 living in our camp for safety reason.
8 Q. In the days -- in the days leading up to Operation Storm,
9 Captain, was there any preparations going on within Sector South
10 headquarters to ensure that -- that there was extra food and extra water
11 and that people had bags backed and the APCs were ready to pick up UN
12 personnel if an attack took place? Were any of those preparations being
14 A. I don't know about the preparation itself. Now I find out that I
15 speak in English, I hope it is fine. I don't think that there were any
16 specific preparation taking place, but, as I said earlier, at one point
17 we were called back in the camp because there would be an attack coming
18 the next day. So we know there was a feeling that there was something
19 that would happen. Where, not sure.
20 Q. And the information you got about the attack was an hour and a
21 half before the actual attack took place?
22 A. Yeah, 0330.
23 Q. Now, let me talk to you a little bit about your testimony and
24 about the actual shelling itself. And if we can go through this, you
25 note in your -- in your statement at -- if I may, paragraph 9 that you
1 not an artillery expert. And before we go into this shelling I'd just
2 like to ask you a few things.
3 You note in paragraph 9 that in your estimation most of the
4 shelling came from a 155-millimetre or a 203-millimetre. Do you see,
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know, sir, what type of 155, what it was?
8 A. Heavy artillery.
9 Q. No. I'm just asking was it a Howitzer or a gun. Or do you know?
10 A. I don't know if it was a Howitzer or a gun.
11 Q. Well, whether or not it's a Howitzer or a gun has a lot to do
12 with the range. Has everything to do with the range of the weapon,
13 doesn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at the time that the shelling was taking place on the morning
16 of the 4th, was Knin within range of 155?
17 A. Yes, I would say yes.
18 Q. And what was the range?
19 A. I'm not sure. I would say approximately 25 kilometre.
20 Q. So your testimony -- well, let me be more specific. If the HV
21 only had a 155 Howitzer, what's the range on a 155 Howitzer?
22 A. I said I'm not sure, but I would estimate that the range is 25
24 Q. Would you surprise, sir, to learn that it's about 17 kilometres?
25 A. No, I would not be surprised and I don't know if it is true, but
1 I'm not surprised.
2 Q. Okay. If it was within 17, a 155 would not have been within
3 range of Knin from the positions of the HV on the morning of the 4th,
4 would it?
5 A. I don't know where the position of the HV were on the morning of
6 the 4th.
7 Q. How about the 203s. You maintain there was a 203 being used.
8 What's the range on a 203?
9 A. I'm not sure. I would estimate over 35 kilometre, approximately
10 35 kilometre.
11 Q. You're testimony is that the range on a 203 is 35 kilometres?
12 A. No. I said I'm not sure. So I would estimate it as 35 kilometre
13 because you are asking me to estimate it.
14 Q. So if there -- if in fact the -- would you be surprised to learn
15 that the range of a 203 is less than 20 kilometres?
16 A. No, I'm not surprised and I don't know if it's true.
17 Q. Okay. So when you tell us it's 35 kilometres, you really don't
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
20 MR. HEDARALY: Now that they're both speaking English, the French
21 was a little slower, so just pause between question and answer.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're now speaking the same language.
23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And we would have take a little pause between
25 question and answer and answer and question.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Yes. So when you said 35 kilometres, Captain, for a 203 that's
4 pure speculation on your part, isn't it?
5 A. No, that is not pure speculation. What I wrote on that
6 paragraph with 155 and 203-millimetre artillery is more about the damage
7 and explosion that I saw on the ground than the actual range of the gun
8 itself. But, as I said earlier, it was coming from 15 to 35 kilometre,
9 my estimation.
10 Q. And well, we can just let the record stand the way it is. But
11 you don't really know what the range of a 203 is, do you?
12 A. But as I said, I said I would guess or approximate it at 35
14 Q. Now let's just talk a little bit about your observations at the
15 time. And if we can go to your notes, if I may, and I'm dealing with
17 Now, when the shelling actually started at 5.01, you were
18 actually walking around the camp, weren't you?
19 A. Are you referring to a specific paragraph or --
20 Q. Sure.
21 A. -- I don't know the --
22 Q. I may, sir, if you can go to paragraph 5 in your statement.
23 Paragraph 5: "It was during this tour of the camp that the first
24 shells fell on Knin."
25 A. Yeah, correct.
1 Q. Okay. So your notations here that you have in P591 started at
2 5.02 were something that you wrote after the fact, right, after you had
3 finished walking around the camp, ran back at the headquarters and went
4 back upstairs, right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And as a matter of fact, you have no notations whatsoever in here
7 between 5.02 and 5.38?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. And the fact is, sir, that when you offered an opinion as to the
10 amount of shelling that was going on, these were your rough estimates
11 because even from your notes we just note this gap between 5.02 and 5.38,
12 and if I can continue on your notes stop at approximately 9.30. You can
13 take a look at your notes, 591, I believe you can see the third page,
14 that your actual notes stop. Do you see that?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. So what you have given us is your rough approximation -- let me
17 withdraw that a second.
18 How much time did you spend up in the window or on the balcony
19 looking at this?
20 A. I would estimate from 5.02 to noon and to come back later on the
21 afternoon, you know, I don't have really a recollection but I spend most
22 of the time there.
23 Q. But the -- you stopped talking notes at 9.30 and then you began
24 to do other things later on in the morning with General Forand, didn't
1 A. No, it's not correct. I don't know why the register ended at
3 May I say that the reason why me taking those notes on that
4 morning has nothing to do with coming here and giving an official
5 testimony of the number of shell that landed in Knin on the 4th and the
6 5th of August. It is some notes that I took, and it does not reflect the
7 exact amount of shell that were fired on Knin on the 4th and the 5th, but
8 it is the note that I took on that morning as I was seeing them.
9 Q. And I appreciate that, Captain, and I just am trying to bore down
10 a little bit on some of your approximations given the fact that you had
11 other duties certainly starting about midday and that you stopped taking
12 records of approximately 9.30, and we know from your notes that at
13 approximately noon
14 the ARSK, didn't you?
15 A. Yes. My notes are showing that at 12.10 to 1300 there was a
16 meeting with General Forand and have I a recollection of that. But why
17 there is no indication of the number of shell that landed, because there
18 were, 0950 to 1210, I don't know why there is no entry in this little
20 Q. But suffice it to say, Captain, that your testimony on the
21 approximate amount of shells reflects what you saw but also what you
22 heard. Isn't that right?
23 A. Please say the question again.
24 Q. When you offered an assessment concerning the amount of shells
25 that you say fell on Knin, that reflects an estimate of what you saw but
1 also what you heard. Isn't that right?
2 A. Yeah, most -- most of what I saw, but also from what I heard,
4 Q. Now, you also note here that at 8.03, there was outgoing shell
5 fire -- outgoing fire 300 metres out from the camp.
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I can read 0803, outgoing 300 metre out from camp and three
8 question mark, yeah.
9 Q. And that, sir, was outgoing fire by the ARSK, wasn't it?
10 A. I cannot say. I don't know. That's why there are question mark
11 there. It was strange that there was outgoing fire 30 metre -- 300
12 metres out from the camp.
13 Q. Well, Captain, it was outgoing fire from terrain that was
14 controlled at that time by the ARSK, wasn't it?
15 A. I cannot even see where was that ground from my window. So I
16 cannot say that it was ground that was controlled by the ARSK.
17 Q. Well, I mean as you sit here, Captain, do you think it was ground
18 that was covered by the ARSK or do you think the HV was already in Knin
19 300 metres from the UN Sector South camp?
20 A. I don't know.
21 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I don't know if you want to take a break
22 now or you want me to keep going. It's --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It looks as if this is a right time to have a
25 Mr. Kehoe, could you give us any impression and could other
1 Defence counsel give us any impression on how much time would you still
3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, probably just finish in the next
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I hear from other counsel.
6 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. I have about 30 minutes of the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Same for me, Your Honour. Thank you. Perhaps
10 JUDGE ORIE: That means that there is a fair expectation, but I'm
11 also looking to you, Mr. Hedaraly, for re-examination.
12 MR. HEDARALY: Not at the moment, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that means that there is a fair expectation
14 that we could conclude the testimony of this witness today.
15 We'll have a break and resume at a quarter past 4.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.26 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If it is of any consolation to the parties, our late
19 start is due to being very busy not on other matters but busy on this
20 case during the break.
21 Mr. Misetic.
22 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, just during the break I was able to
23 correct or find the error in that exhibit that I tendered at the
24 beginning of today's session. In column 7 there was a transcription
25 error and a decision by the state prosecutor's office. The word
1 "conviction" was put in where word "indictment" should have been
2 inserted. We're in the process of correcting that and uploading it into
3 e-court, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait and see.
5 Then one of the issues which is of some urgency, and Mr. Gilbert,
6 I hope that you will forgive us for spend two or three minutes on another
7 matter which is unrelated to your testimony.
8 I would like to put on the record the Chamber's decision granting
9 the Gotovina's request for a stay of the time-limit under Rule 73 (C)
10 pending the issuance of the Chamber's reasons for admitting witness
11 Zdravko Janic's statement under Rule 92 ter.
12 On Friday, the 11th of July, 2008, the parties were informed of a
13 decision taken by the Chamber with regard to an request filed by Gotovina
14 Defence on the 10th of July. This concerned the request for a stay of
15 the time limited for requesting certification under Rule 73 (C) of the
16 Chamber's 8 of July 2008 decision on the Defence's objections to the
17 admission of Zdravko Janic suspect interview under Rule 95.
18 The Gotovina Defence requested that it be granted a stay pending
19 the issuance of the Chamber's written reasons for its decision granting
20 admission of witness Zdravko Janic's statement under Rule 92 ter, the
21 reasons for this being that both decisions related to the admission into
22 evidence of Zdravko Janic suspect interview.
23 The Chamber would now like to put on the record that this request
24 was grant and that the Gotovina Defence is informed that it will have
25 seven days from the issuing of the reasons for admitting witness Zdravko
1 Janic statements pursuant to Rule 92 ter in order to file any request for
2 certification against both of the Chamber's decisions concerning this
4 That's now on the record.
5 The Chamber could imagine that you become nervous, Mr. Misetic,
6 if you would not have not known about this decision.
7 Then, Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to --
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- continue. Then please do so.
10 MR. KEHOE: Thank you.
11 Q. Captain, in paragraph 23 of your statement you noted that the
12 estimates of the amount of shells coming into Knin by Colonel Leslie was
14 Do you see that sir?
15 A. Seems a little bit high, yeah.
16 Q. Okay. Now, Colonel, did most of the people in the headquarters,
17 UN Sector South headquarters defer to Leslie, given his rank and his
18 professed artillery expertise?
19 A. No, nobody. It was just a personal comment of myself.
20 Q. That was your personal view.
21 A. Yes, about the number and -- could you rephrase the question?
22 Q. I'm talking about Leslie's high estimates. Did people in
23 Sector South defer to Leslie because of his rank and because of his
24 professed expertise in artillery?
25 A. I do, too.
1 Q. You do?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Now in paragraph 20 of your statement you note that you were --
4 the last sentence you say: "I remember because I was surprised that
5 shells would be fired at night."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes I do.
8 Q. On the evening of the 4th were you aware of the military
9 situation in the Knin area?
10 A. Not exactly sure of the military situation in the Knin area, but
11 we did drive downtown that night.
12 Q. Well, on the night of the 4th, let me read you something that
13 Colonel Leslie said, and this is from a video D123. He says: "Taking
14 Knin, no. We have no reports of Croatians being in direct fire range of
15 Knin and there are still lots of Serbs in Knin and in the surrounding
17 D106, General Mrksic on behalf of the ARSK: "We are maintaining
18 contact, our forces withdrew to positions for the direct defence of Knin.
19 The other range of units are successfully holding their positions."
20 Are you aware of continued fighting going on in Knin on the
21 evening of the 4th, going into the morning of the 5th?
22 A. No. I think that the only thing that was going on in Knin that
23 night, there were some small arm fire on a there were some -- a few, I
24 estimated to 30, artillery shell landing in Knin, and there was not a big
25 bad willing going on there.
1 Q. Were you aware of any troop movements through Knin?
2 A. No, I don't think there were any.
3 Q. Well, do you know that, sir, or is that your speculation?
4 A. That's the best of my recollection that there was no -- there was
5 no fighting or heavy fighting or movement in Knin. I don't think so.
6 Q. Okay. Now, let me turn your attention to the actual shelling
7 situation. And if I could bring up first P596. Prosecution 596.
8 Is that -- is that P596, Mr. Usher -- Mr. Registrar?
9 Now, sir, that is the photograph that was initially put into
10 evidence, something that was taken on the fall, late November of last
11 year. Let me show you a photograph -- two photographs and I want to show
12 you it via Sanction than would be 1D38-0089, and I would like you to
13 focus on the little shed as the reference point.
14 The reference point on the left is the photograph that just came
15 into evidence, P596. And the photograph on the right is from a video
16 that was filmed on the morning of the 4th of August, 1995, by a UN
17 employee inside headquarters.
18 Now, Captain, is that what the area looked like or how you
19 observed it back on the morning of the 4th of August, 1995? And I'm
20 talking about the fog in the distance as well as the tree. That's over
21 to the right-hand side of the photograph. Is that how it looked?
22 A. Yeah, there is a tree there that has been cut, right? If it's
23 the same little house, I would say that's the view that I had in the
24 morning on the 5th, yes.
25 Q. So as you look over to the right-hand side, your view is
1 obstructed by the tree, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And likewise, because of the fog and smoke in the distance, your
4 view is also -- was also obstructed on the 4th, wasn't it?
5 A. But did you say was it on the 4th or the 5th?
6 Q. This is the 4th.
7 A. The 4th, okay. Yes, there were some fog, yes.
8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, we'd like to move this item into
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
11 MR. HEDARALY: No objections.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D569.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D569 is admitted into evidence.
15 Mr. Kehoe, there seems to be no issue as far as admissibility is
16 concerned. The witness has answered questions about it. Nevertheless,
17 these two pictures taken together are raising quite some puzzles for me.
18 Angle of view, trees growing smaller over the years and of course you
19 could -- apparently other structures, for example, if you would like at
20 the right-hand side of the oval there seems to be something of a small
21 structure as well which doesn't appear on the later one. It -- just for
22 you to note.
23 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge. If I can just put this in a
24 reference point. The left-hand photograph of course is P596, the
25 photograph that the OTP put in. The right hand is a still that we took
1 from a video that was provided by the OTP. What we have attempted to do
2 is, using that reference point, and we can give more frames to the Trial
3 Chamber both left and right to maybe focus this little building in a
4 little better. But this was something that has been purported to us in
5 sending to us by the OTP as having been taken on the 4th of 1995.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But of course then questions arise such as was
7 it taken from the third floor, was it taken from the bottom, what could
8 you see over the tree, the trees which at least look far higher on the
9 right picture than they look on the left one. So, therefore, I -- I
10 fully accept that it is important to look at contemporaneous photographs
11 or movies as well and not only to the situation as it appeared to be at a
12 later stage but the comparison is -- seems to me to be rather complex.
13 MR. KEHOE: It is, Judge, and what we've tried to do is obviously
14 our photograph or the juxtaposition of a photograph that was taken in
15 late November of 1997 well into the fall, as my colleague has so properly
16 pointed out, as opposed to something -- a timely photograph that took
17 place the same day in the middle of the summer -- I'm sorry, it's 2007,
18 not 1997, but the exact date I think gives the Trial Chamber as the
19 witness pointed out an accurate view of, number one, the fact there was a
20 tree obstructing his view on the right-hand side, and number two, quite
21 importantly, what the horizon was like between fog and smoke.
22 And, Your Honour, we will gladly take this OTP video and provide
23 additional frames on both sides and maybe it could become yet clearer.
24 We just believe that the juxtaposition of these two photographs at this
25 point would be instructive not only for the Chamber but for the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I did share with you what puzzles my mind, I
2 think it's fair, and I don't think that by just the two or three
3 questions we have resolved what puzzles my mind, and just for you to know
5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Let me talk to you about several angles, Captain, on that day and
9 I would like to turn, first, 1D38-0084.
10 Now, Captain, this is the photograph of P597, and the areas the
11 two hills that you had previously talked about in your supplemental
12 statement are A and B. Do you recall that, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And this is what you talked about when you observed shell
15 fire on the hill. Isn't that right?
16 A. In my testimony, I mentioned behind a small hill and it's one of
17 those two.
18 Q. Okay. And, of course, when this -- when you were there at the
19 time, it was August and this was significantly grown up with trees and
20 leaves, et cetera, right?
21 A. I cannot say.
22 Q. You don't recall?
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Let's go to the next slide.
25 This is a spatial view of the area from your location in UN
1 Sector South with no elevation to it. If we can go to the next -- and we
2 designate the two hills again, A and B.
3 If we can go to the next slide.
4 Now, you notice again we have A and B and your angle. And are
5 you familiar, Captain, of -- I mean, do you know where these rounds
6 landed when you saw them going in and about these hills?
7 A. Just tell me which of my statement you are talking about.
8 Q. Well, you gave us a supplemental sheet from the Office of the
9 Prosecutor concerning these two locations designating them as A and B and
10 you just gave us an explanation during the course of your testimony about
11 one of the small hills being hit. Do you recall that?
12 A. It was behind the small hill.
13 Q. Okay. So it was behind the small hill?
14 A. Yeah. 0855, two round under fire heavy behind small hill.
15 That's what I compare the small hill and I refer to it --
16 Q. Do you know what is being targeted?
17 A. No. It just -- it just hit behind the small hill.
18 Q. So if we go through either one of these targets, and you can pick
19 either hill, the 1 being the Tvik factory, the 2 being the
20 Elektroprivreda power distribution plant, 3 the Kinjacka factory, 4 the
21 diesel depot, perhaps the railway maintenance yard, 5 the RSK state
22 security. You have no idea what the HV was firing at, do you?
23 A. No. The only thing I can report is what I have seen and write in
24 my notebook at that time. It was behind the small hill and I don't know
25 what was hit.
1 Q. Captain, are you familiar with these various --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
3 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You said, well, you gave us a supplemental sheet
5 from the Office of the Prosecutor concerning these two locations. Has
6 the Chamber received any such thing? I mean, in order to follow the
7 testimony, of course, we should be able to understand.
8 MR. KEHOE: I can just read it to you, Your Honour. I mean, it
9 says that he also identified on P543, one of these exhibits, that the
10 small hill he referred to in his contemporaneous notes of the shelling
11 was one of the two hills in the picture. Hard copies of these pictures
12 have also been placed in the Defence locker.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Because that is not evidence.
14 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But I do understand that you indicated that one of
16 these two hills, I think you said in earlier testimony, but the Chamber
17 was unaware of the supplemental sheet, which it now appears to cover
18 exactly the same as what you now testified in Court.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hedaraly.
22 MR. HEDARALY: As a matter of course we don't sent those to the
23 Trial Chamber --
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not --
25 MR. HEDARALY: -- if you want us to do that in the future or --
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not complaining about it, but if someone
2 makes reference to a certain document the Chamber is not aware of, then
3 it's not more than logical, I would say, that the Chamber inquires into
4 what the document is about and that's what I did and it turns out to be
5 that it's giving exactly the same information as the witness gave during
6 his testimony.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Let us go to the next slide.
10 Now, this is the -- if we just orient you, Captain, this would be
11 the -- basically the angle you were talking about as you're looking over
12 hill B, would it not? And --
13 A. What you're say is that my observation point from the window --
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. -- this yellow --
16 Q. That's your observation point.
17 A. Yeah, let's say, well, yeah.
18 Q. Can we go to the next slide?
19 So and with regard to these targets, sir, if these -- and I'm
20 just saying if these individual items were targets, you would have seen a
21 series of artillery fire throughout this area, wouldn't you? I'm not
22 telling you to say that there are targets or not. I'm saying that if the
23 shelling was taking place at all these areas we put in the map, you would
24 have seen an array of fire going from behind hill B all the way over to
25 the left-hand side of this photograph, wouldn't you?
1 A. Can you --
2 Q. Just for a frame of reference, sir, each of these targets --
3 A. A and B, that's what you're talking about, A and B?
4 Q. And the targets that we have, 1 through 5, are the geometry as
5 put forth on the angle 1 through 5 so you see that juxtaposed behind
6 those hills.
7 A. Yeah, I can -- okay, go ahead.
8 Q. So if you saw an array of shell fire from this area, as you say
9 in your statement that the shells fell all over town, assuming these were
10 targets, you would have seen shelling all the way over from your mound
11 point B to the left-hand side of this photo, wouldn't you?
12 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. But maybe I can state
13 what I saw from the window.
14 I saw that hill indicated as B, I saw that hill as indicated as
15 A, and I saw some artillery shell falling behind those hill, and I saw
16 specifically at 0855, as I note in my book, two round behind small hill.
17 I don't know which one of those two it is.
18 I saw that, and I saw a lot more to the left of hill A.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Which was the town of Knin
21 Q. We will get to that, sir.
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me, I'm sorry, I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: I know the Court has some concerns about more than
25 one lawyer rising but I raise what I hope is a general matter in
1 connection -- that I have raised before in connection with demonstrative
2 evidence like this. To the extent it is helpful, of course the
3 Prosecution welcomes such photographs and aids, but in this particular
4 case, I'm try to go sort it out as well, we're seeing it for the first
5 time today, and the yellow dotted line appears to be significant but it
6 appears to me that could be drawn at any number of angles from that
7 particular balcony going out in any number of direction and depict
8 something different. I thought I also understood, by the way, that the
9 witness was talking about the other balcony in connection with his
10 observations, but if the -- if the relative precision versus the relative
11 generality of the assistance that can be offered by the document is made
12 clear, I think we'll be better -- the Court will be better assisted and
13 so will the parties.
14 But if it's a matter of fine precision, then it's also a matter
15 of knowing precisely where it was taken from, precisely what the angle of
16 view was and a lot more variables need to be fleshed out and the
17 Prosecution needs to be aware of it in order to understand the utility or
18 limitations of the document.
19 So this is a general matter, so I'm sorry to intervene, but it's
20 something that's concerned me --
21 MR. KEHOE: May I respond to that? I mean this is their
22 photograph. This is the photograph that they dropped in our locker last
23 night. The line in the middle is the location of the photographer, based
24 on the evidence given to us by the Prosecutor, we then did these
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, which balcony is the -- I think
2 as a matter of fact that I ask some additional questions especially out
3 of concern whether we have the right picture in front of us.
4 Mr. Tieger, if this Chamber really feels that it is not assisted
5 by this kind of reconstructions, I think you know the Chamber well enough
6 to know that the Chamber will not hide this. That's one.
7 Second, of course, we should not forget that the further the
8 distance, the less the impact of five or ten metres difference from a
9 point of view. I mean if you're standing 100 metres before a hill, a
10 small hill, then it makes quite a difference -- it can at least make
11 quite a difference whether you move to the left or to the right a couple
12 of metres. The further the distance, the less impact it has. So,
13 therefore, I do appreciate that your concerns that the Chamber would not
14 be assisted. And as you said also the parties are not assisted, then I
15 take it the OTP is not assisted by it. Of course it seems that Mr. Kehoe
16 thinks that it assists him in getting a better view on what happened.
17 MR. KEHOE: Well, the --
18 JUDGE ORIE: While that's understood, Mr. Kehoe, that's --
19 MR. KEHOE: I just accept what the Prosecution gives us and work
20 with the elements that they gave us. They provided us --
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, let's -- Mr. Tieger has expressed his concern
22 whether this would assist or at least assist the Chamber.
23 Let's proceed.
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, at this time I'll
25 offer into evidence 1D38-0084, this array of photographs.
1 MR. HEDARALY: I think as an additional matter, Your Honour --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. HEDARALY: -- THE foundation, because the witness did not
4 recognise any of these alleged targets and then what these line of sight,
5 so once again I think it may be something -- I don't know who prepared
7 MR. KEHOE: Targets are already in evidence in --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's keep -- let's keep matters simple.
9 Mr. Gilbert, what is put to you by Mr. Kehoe is the following:
10 That if the only thing you saw is that the shells were falling behind
11 these hills, then Mr. Kehoe, on the basis of the evidence presented to
12 this Chamber, takes the position that there's quite a range in the --
13 from left to right behind these hills, where in the view of the Defence
14 and on the basis of what the Defence has presented as evidence to this
15 Chamber, that there are a lot of targets that could be hit or targeted
16 behind these hills.
17 The question is, I think, which Mr. Kehoe did put to you, were
18 you aware of those possible targets and do you have any additional
19 information which would lead you to reasonably assume that the shells
20 falling behind these hills were not falling upon the targets Mr. Kehoe
21 earlier showed to you. That's the question.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay. I was not aware of any target. There were
23 shell falling behind those hill. There were shell falling out to the
24 left of those hill. There were shell during that one -- 4th and 5th of
25 August until noon
1 and I still never -- I don't think that it was intended for a specific
2 target. I think it was harassing fire.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you tell us what's the basis for
4 this thought, apart from because what Mr. Kehoe puts to you, is that in
5 the full width of what you describe, that is the two hills, that behind
6 the hills, for the Defence, there are potential targets. So if that full
7 range, Mr. Kehoe wonders how you could determine that this is harassing
8 fire rather than targeting any of these military objectives.
9 THE WITNESS: In the general context there was firing all over
10 Knin. You know, were specifically talking to 0855, when in my notes I
11 put behind the small hill. So somebody is asking me could you identify
12 the small hill. I'm saying it's one of those two. Was it a military --
13 was there a military target behind it, maybe yes; maybe not. I don't
14 know. But at the time and still now, I'm not thinking that it was
15 hitting a military target. Because from the morning of the 4th until
17 shell, all over Knin. So I don't -- I still don't think that it was
18 intended to a specific military target.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we have explored sufficiently what
20 objective data there are and what the -- apparently what the thoughts of
21 the witness are.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
23 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we offer 1D38-0084 into
25 JUDGE ORIE: Whether welcome or not, is it admissible or not,
1 Mr. Hedaraly?
2 MR. HEDARALY: We have no objection to the admissibility, Your
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Hedaraly.
5 Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D570.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D570 is admitted into evidence and that is the whole
9 MR. KEHOE: Just that whole series.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KEHOE: There is more as the angle moves so we will go to
12 1D38-0083 because the witness said that he observed shelling to the left
13 of this photograph.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that is what comes next.
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The series as we have seen them until now.
17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. Now, you noted for us that you stated that there was artillery
21 fire to the left of the photograph that we previously referenced and I
22 asked you, looking at the -- shifting over on to the other side of what
23 you designated as mound A, you see one, the Senjak barracks; two, the
24 Agroprevreda depot; and three, the Tvik factory. Are you aware of those
1 A. No. That is the first time I read those names there.
2 Q. But there was artillery fire straight away left of the mound that
3 you had designated as A, wasn't there?
4 A. There was artillery fire all over town.
5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we'll offer 1D38-0083 into
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
8 MR. HEDARALY: Once again, Your Honour, he has not identified
9 those specific issues but I guess if this is not an admissibility issue,
10 then we won't object.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D571.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D571 is admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. KEHOE: Let me bring up -- thank you, Mr. President. Let me
16 bring up 1D38-0001 and this is it --
17 JUDGE ORIE: While that is done, Mr. Kehoe, I find in the
18 previously just admitted, that just admitted I see a number 76 which I
19 don't know what it is about.
20 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry. Can we flip back to that, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have access to it -- to another copy,
22 then I'm not going to -- 76, it says.
23 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, I don't see the 76 on that photograph.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Just close to the --
25 MR. KEHOE: Oh, that is a grid reference, Judge. When you take
1 these Google Earth maps, the grid references on the Google Earth --
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. It's a grid reference. Just for me to
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE: Can I go to two up. Go in reverse order, page 3,
7 Q. Now, this is yet a further angle to the left, Captain, from the
8 UN Sector South headquarters looking downtown. Do you recognise this
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. And let me go to the next slide, page 2.
12 Now, sir, if I can just blow that up a bit, I have listed here 17
13 locations that have been previously admitted into evidence. And for
14 reference the all these items were set forth in D131.
15 Are you familiar with all of these locations, sir, and just take
16 a look at the chart to the left.
17 A. ARSK barracks must be number 10. I recognise that. And I don't
18 see the white parliament building. I don't know if it is named somewhere
19 in there but I cannot figure out on that one.
20 Q. It is number 3, sir, at the bottom.
21 A. Number 3, parliament, okay. And the hospital, I don't know if
22 you're calling it an old hospital.
23 Q. No, sir.
24 A. Is there just one?
25 Q. You're talking about the hospital that was in use?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Way over to the right, the white building way over to the right.
3 A. Is it circled there.
4 Q. No, it is not.
5 A. That is it not a place that I would recognise. Okay. All the
6 other one, I do not recognise, I do not recognise.
7 Q. Well, can we go to the first slide.
8 Sir, we've taken these 17 items in these locations with the two
9 mounds, the hill to the left and the hill to the right, as reference
10 points. Sir, if all of these locations were shelled at some point during
11 the day on the 4th or the 5th, it would have looked to you like the
12 shelling, as you say in paragraph 9 of your statement, the shells fell
13 all over town.
14 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I guess we would need I
15 mean the actual calculations or the basis. There is no way for to us
16 test the accuracy of sort of if that accurately represents those
17 locations that were described in the previous slide and that is actually
18 the -- and questions being put to the witness. It just --
19 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, I think that -- I mean the logic
21 behind this is clear. The data on the map are clear as well. The
22 earlier evidence is clear also. Therefore, I would allow Mr. Kehoe to
24 At the same time, Mr. Kehoe, the issue of potential targeting
25 what you identified as military targets is not a new issue with which you
1 could surprise the Prosecution. Therefore, with this technical
2 elaboration of those issues, I think it would be good if you would give
3 notice to the Prosecution in advance on how you put this into material
4 which will be put to a witness, because, otherwise, it might be almost
5 impossible to verify the accuracy of it, and at the same time, of course,
6 that might cause that we would have to re-call a witness. I mean, if it
7 is something new, then of course I can imagine that you would say I'd
8 rather not disclose this already to the Prosecution, but if it comes to
9 these technical details, then where the issue is clearly there, I mean,
10 if you read the statement of the witness, it of course came immediately
11 to my mind, but whatever the merits of it are, therefore under those
12 circumstances I think it might a good idea to share some of the technical
13 elaboration that the Prosecution --
14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I will gladly take them through it.
15 Frankly, it's simple geometry, but I think and I appreciate that it -- it
16 may look a tad bit more complex than it is, but that is what it is. It's
17 just simple geometry taking the targets that they --
18 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to -- you don't have to explain to
19 me, Mr. Kehoe, that it is simple geometry apart from, of course, at this
20 moment in these pictures that the depth doesn't appear anymore which of
21 course is clear from the picture itself, so I'm not surprised by that.
22 But even in geometry, sometimes mistakes are made and what
23 Mr. Hedaraly is asking is give us an opportunity to verify the accuracy
24 of your work.
25 MR. KEHOE: You know, and absolutely, Judge, and if I'm mistaken
1 on the geometry I will stand corrected. We have tried to check this
2 geometry over and over but please I would like the Prosecution --
3 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, there's no blame at this point.
4 THE COURT REPORTER: One at a time, please, one at a time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise.
6 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The issue simply is whether if we are coming to this
8 technical presentation of the geometry, whether for the purpose of giving
9 an opportunity to the Prosecution to verify whether they agree with you
10 that it was accurately done, whether there would be a possibility to give
11 them in advance access to this very technical material.
12 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Your Honour. If I do these geometric
13 calculations again, I will gladly do that. I trust there won't be many
14 more of these. Nevertheless I'm certainly gladly to share the
15 calculations and how it was done with my friends across the bar and see
16 how -- and let them check how we did it and our conclusions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think that was what Mr. Hedaraly was asking for.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I don't know how you want to do this. I
20 was offered 1D38-0001 into evidence at this time.
21 MR. HEDARALY: No objections Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D572.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D572 is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. KEHOE:
1 Q. Captain, would it be accurate to say that as you were standing on
2 the balcony, you had no idea of what potential targets there were other
3 than the RSK barracks that you notified -- that you talked about before?
4 Is that accurate?
5 A. What is accurate is I was not watching from the balcony. I was
6 watching from my office window, which is neither of those angle of view.
7 And what is accurate is that the shelling was all over Knin.
8 Q. And my follow-up question to that is you as you sit here have no
9 idea what the target was of that shelling, do you, or the targets were of
10 that shell, do you? Yes or no?
11 A. No.
12 Q. In fact, sir, when -- you in fact in your statement or in your
13 note when you say that the target of the bombardment was the civilians
14 and this is in your article on page 593, page 3, you also say on 591,
15 your notes at 543 --
16 A. I do not follow you now. The article?
17 Q. Just go to 543 -- go to 591.
18 A. My article?
19 Q. First your article.
20 A. What page.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I insist on short breaks.
22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I made similar mistakes recently, and that made me
24 even more aware how important it is to give an opportunity to the
25 transcriber and the interpreters to reflect what is said accurately on
1 the record.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. In page 3 of your article, you note that the targets of the
5 bombardment were the civilians.
6 A. I recall that, but I would like to read it.
7 Q. The last paragraph.
8 A. Page 3, last paragraph in English.
9 MR. HEDARALY: It is page 4 of the French, if that assists the
11 THE WITNESS: I'm reading in English. I will read it in French
12 because it was writed in French.
13 Where is it? It's page 3.
14 MR. KEHOE: Page 3 in the English, sir, and maybe counsel can
15 help with the French.
16 MR. HEDARALY: Page four of the French. It is the fifth line,
17 fifth or sixth line, "they are the target of" ...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The exodus of majority of
19 civilians had started. They are the target of this shelling."
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you said that, sir, because
22 you were unaware of any other potential targets. Isn't that right?
23 A. No, that's not correct. I said that because I thought that at
24 the moment and I wrote it in an article to public which is -- you know
25 the intent of the article was for public reading, not to come in court,
1 and that's why the reason why I put it there.
2 Q. Take a look at 591, your notes. P591. And the time entry of
4 A. It is on the second day.
5 Q. First day, 5.43.
6 A. But I started timing at 5.43. Hmm.
7 Q. Can you read the entry for 5.43?
8 A. "Notice no fire by location of ARSK seems a bit heavily."
9 Q. So you wrote that article knowing, Captain, that you had written
10 in your notes that the ARSK headquarters had been hit heavily at 0543 on
11 the morning of the 4th, right?
12 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think that
13 mischaracterises. There is no mention of headquarters in the notes.
14 MR. KEHOE: That's fine.
15 Q. You hit the ARSK on the morning of the 4th?
16 A. What I meant by that was the barracks that we talked earlier. At
17 0543 the shell were landing close to that barracks.
18 Q. So I reiterate, you wrote that in your article knowing full well
19 that you had documented that an ARSK facility had been hit on 0543 on the
20 4th of August, right?
21 A. No right, no.
22 Q. We'll move on.
23 MR. KEHOE: If I can just have one second here, Your Honour.
24 Excuse me.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Now, let us turn your attention to the morning of the 4th and
3 your activities, and you did in fact go to the ARSK headquarters with
4 General Forand at approximately midday on the 4th, did you not?
5 A. I'm not sure if it was the ARSK headquarter. But we went to a
6 place where there was an ARSK representative, yes.
7 Q. And prior to that time, had there been communication with the RSK
9 A. Not myself. It was the headquarter Sector South contact, I'm not
11 Q. Let me play you a video, D327, if I may.
12 This is two ARSK officials on the morning of the 4th, talking
13 about communications with the UN.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. KEHOE: Go back to the beginning, please.
16 [Videotape played]
17 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] At 4.14 I received a phone call
18 from liaison officer from headquarters who was our government liaison
19 officer for UNPROFOR that he had received information from an operational
20 organ within UNPROFOR from Sector South command that the Croats would say
21 be attacking us. Miroslav Sekolic: We were informed 18 times by various
22 officers, French, these informing us we will be attacked in the morning
23 at 5.00 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
25 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: On channel 5 I did not receive French translation,
2 but I don't know where the problem lies, and for the completeness of the
3 record --
4 MR. KEHOE: Could we replay it, Judge? It's very brief.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please replay the --
6 [Videotape played]
7 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] at 4.15 I received a phone call
8 from a liaison officer from headquarters who was our government's liaison
9 officer of UNPROFOR that he had received information from an operational
10 organ within UNPROFOR from Sector South command that the Croats would be
11 attacking us.
12 Miroslav Sekolic: "We were informed 18 times by various
13 officers, French, these and others, informing us that we would be
14 attacked in the morning at 5.00 a.m.
15 MR. KEHOE:
16 Q. Captain, were you the French officer who called the RSK
17 headquarters to tell them that they were going to be attacked?
18 A. No, I was not, I'm sure not.
19 Q. And do you know who was?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. How much French officers worked at UN Sector South on the morning
22 of the 4th, French-speaking officers beside you, General Forand, and
23 Major Bellerose?
24 A. Major Dussault. But what I think that may refer to is another --
25 when I heard it I thought it was from French forces officer liaison
1 officer, or from Knin, but it was certainly not me, and a rough thing,
2 maybe four or five people speaking French from the UN headquarters
3 Sector South.
4 Q. Do you have any knowledge that this phone call going to the RSK
5 to tell them that the attack was coming?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. Now, you went with, your notes P591 reflects, and this is at the
8 third page, reflects a meeting at approximately midday. Do you see that,
10 A. 12.10 to 13, meeting with Karpalak and press conference in Knin,
11 yes, I see that.
12 Q. Before we go get to that, you mentioned some Canadian officers
13 that were French-speaking. Were there any officers from France at UN
14 Sector South in Knin?
15 A. Maybe a couple. I don't know.
16 Q. You don't recall?
17 A. No. I would have to look into our nominal roll.
18 Q. Now, in the morning of this meeting in midday, and I turn your
19 attention to P543. And as we're coming up with that exhibit, who went to
20 UN Sector South at midday
21 A. We went to some kind of ARSK barracks where there were people
22 there. That's what you mean, it was --
23 Q. I apologise. Who went to the meeting with the RSK at midday
24 the 4th of August?
25 A. Me, the driver, General Forand, for sure. Probably a UNHCR rep,
1 a UN civilian rep, and maybe another person.
2 Q. Did Mr. Roberts go?
3 A. Maybe, maybe.
4 Q. Did Colonel Ratsouk go?
5 A. I don't remember that name.
6 Q. Colonel Nikolai Ratsouk?
7 A. I don't know that person.
8 Q. Now, what was the purpose of the meeting that you went to?
9 A. It says there meeting with Karpalak and press conference in Knin.
10 I recall being in that room. That was a crowded room, I was inside with
11 the people when that took place. There was maybe six or seven people
12 from RSK and five, six, from the UN representative. That was a crowded
13 room. I don't know what was the meeting of that and I see there that it
14 says and press conference in Knin. I don't know that there was a press
15 conference. I don't know if it was a joint, I don't know. I don't
17 Q. I'm sorry. This is -- I was looking for P343, I apologise.
18 Now during this meeting, the UN provided the RSK with a radio,
19 didn't it?
20 A. I don't know what are you referring to. Just give me the name of
21 the paper, because with the number I cannot refer to.
22 Q. I'm going to bring up a exhibit here on the screen, P343.
23 A. That's what I see there.
24 Q. Okay. If we -- on the left --
25 A. [Inaudible].
1 Q. This is a sitrep of 4 August 1995
2 been designated as page 5. It's a -- keep going, please.
3 If I may, it's page 5 at the top. Three more pages in, please.
4 One more. Well, we can just move ahead and ask the question.
5 Captain, did the UN -- here it is. If we go to that
6 paragraph towards the end of the meeting with the warring factions, it
7 talk about the meeting with Colonel Kosta Novakovic at approximately
8 11.30. Do you see that?
9 A. Just give me paragraph, H, I?
10 Q. Paragraph H.
11 A. H?
12 Q. Just take a look at paragraph H.
13 A. One, two, three, four, okay.
14 Q. It's what we had.
15 Can you see that, sir?
16 A. Yes, I'm reading it through the second paragraph now.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Okay. I have read paragraph H.
19 Q. Now, if you read that -- that last sentence in the third
20 paragraph down in H, it notes: "[Indiscernible] commander RSK stated he
21 speak on the radio and tell the people to allow the UN to help. It was
22 agreed that HQ Sector South would remain in contact with HQ ARSK."
23 Now to do that, did the UN -- do you see that, sir, I'm sorry.
24 A. I will read it again. "Commander RSK state that he speak on the
25 radio ... " Okay. Yeah.
1 Q. Now, to do that did the UN provide the ARSK with a UN radio.
2 A. No. I'm reading that now for the first time and what I
3 understand is that he would speak on his own radio channel and tell his
4 ARSK personnel to allow UN to help.
5 Q. And I am talking to them about that -- the and I will tell you
6 that you General Forand in P330, paragraph -- page 5, paragraph 4, said
7 that, "we provided them for the purposes of the coordinating humanitarian
8 assistance a radio."
9 Is that true?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Did the UN provide the RSK authorities for -- did they provide
12 them with an APC?
13 A. I don't -- I don't know, and I don't think so.
14 Q. Do you recall one way or the other, sir?
15 A. No, no, I don't recall anything. But I don't think we did that.
16 Q. Well, the evacuation in fact began to be planned at that meeting,
17 did it not?
18 A. No. I would say no.
19 Q. Let me read you P401, if we could bring that up.
20 This is a presentation by General Forand and if I could have --
21 if we just use the numbers the 0530638.
22 And if we can go to the last paragraph on that page, General
23 Forand says: "I understand now that the RSK supreme defence took the
24 decision at about noon
25 Did you know that, sir?
1 A. I would not be as precise as General Forand did on his notes or
2 speak -- briefing there, but that -- yeah, around the 4th or the 5th.
3 But at some point, yeah, they did -- they took the decision to abandon,
5 Q. Well, this says that the decision was made at noon on the 4th.
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I see that.
8 Q. Is a that -- accurate or based on your recollection?
9 A. What I just told you what was my recollection, it was somewhere
10 on the 4th or on the 5th.
11 Q. Well, you went to a meeting -- I'll try to slow down here. You
12 went to a meeting later on on the 4th and if we can go on and bring up
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, for the understanding of this document,
15 the line "I understand now," is of course something that might be
16 relevant. So if you put to the witness what happened or at least what
17 was in this document I'd prefer to --
18 MR. KEHOE: General Forand said that he was at this meeting and
19 then it became clear to from a variety of other information that they had
20 planned the evacuation as of noon
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. Now, this is the minutes of your -- or these are your notes, are
24 they not, sir, of your evacuation -- I mean, excuse me, of the meeting
25 that you went to at approximately 1800 on the 4th, as we can see from the
1 first line?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And in the first paragraph, there was an ARSK chief of residents
4 evacuation. Do you see that, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Do you know who that person was?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So based on your understanding at the time, there was an ARSK
9 officer or an official that was specifically in charge of the residents
10 of evacuation. Is that right?
11 A. I would prefer to say that we were provided with that information
12 at the meeting. I took note, and I wrote that as it was given to me.
13 But it -- it looks like there was one person there that hold that title.
14 Q. Now, at this meeting, sir, they had outlined -- and let me turn
15 your attention to D182.
16 D182. This is another memo of that meeting by Colonel Ratsouk.
17 The date here says 8th of July, but the parties have stipulated that this
18 is in fact an inaccurate date and it emanates from the meeting on the 4th
19 of August.
20 Now, in the centre of that paragraph it notes that the -- if you
21 can just read that at the second paragraph in?
22 A. I will read the whole thing.
23 Q. Please.
24 A. Can I please be told who is Colonel Ratsouk.
25 Q. Colonel Ratsouk is one of the individuals that I've asked you
1 whether or not he was at the meeting at noon time on the 4th.
2 A. I don't know him, but maybe it would help me to know who that
3 person is. Is that a UN Sector South representative or --
4 Q. He is, sir.
5 A. And can I know more about him.
6 Q. He was Russian Sector South representative.
7 A. And he was working with us at UN Sector South?
8 Q. He was.
9 A. I have no recollection of that. I should have got my list.
11 Q. He was UNCRO from Zagreb
12 A. Attached to us. Attached to us, probably.
13 Q. Or to UNCRO, sir.
14 A. Okay. So he was with us, so I'll take that as -- I'm not sure,
15 but I will take that.
16 Okay. I've read it.
17 Q. Now. Let me show you one last document in conjunction with
18 Mr. Ratsouk's comment and that would be D337, which is a cable from
19 Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan on the 4th of August. And we go to the -- after
20 you look at the front page can we go to the last paragraph on the next
21 page, paragraph 4. And blow up paragraph 4.
22 A. So it's Akashi
23 Q. Correct.
24 A. At what time?
25 Q. There's no stamp on. There's a stamp on it, sir, but there has
1 been some question what the exact time is, but it is the 4th.
2 A. It would be after 1900 at night. I don't know.
3 Okay. I read it.
5 Q. Now, so, at the time this meeting was ended, were you -- did you
6 know that in fact the evacuation to Banja Luka had been planned and was
7 going to take place or was taking place?
8 A. The -- not by the UN, but the ARSK or the Serb authority in Knin,
9 they were trying most probably to evacuate their people.
10 Q. And your understanding was that the evacuation was going to be to
11 Banja Luka?
12 A. No, I don't know where the evacuation was to go, no.
13 Q. Well, did -- do you have any idea where Mr. Ratsouk -- Colonel
14 Ratsouk or Mr. Akashi got the information that it was supposed to go to
15 Banja Luka?
16 A. No, I don't know.
17 Q. Now there was also some -- some reservation about providing fuel
18 to the RSK in order for them to evacuate, wasn't there?
19 A. My understanding that there was an intention from the UN to
20 provide fuel not to the ARSK but to the civilian population in need.
21 Q. Well, the paragraph 4 says that that had to be spoken about,
22 there is a wide range of policy, political and military and logistical
23 implications that must be examined with UNHCR before we can contemplate
24 such a commitment and accordingly, Sector South has been advised by UNCRO
25 to make no commitment to the Knin authorities other than the matter will
1 be examined tomorrow.
2 But fuel was given, anyway. Isn't that right?
3 A. What I saw is in front of our UN compound that there is older
4 people that came with some tractor and some bicycle and motor bicycle and
5 they were requesting fuel and that was given to them.
6 Q. Let me shift subjects and cover a couple things that you
7 mentioned in your statement and that had to do with after you became the
8 refugee officer, as you say in paragraph 34 of your statement. And you
9 note in paragraph 34 that -- excuse me, paragraph 35 that "people were
10 too afraid to go back home. What I mean by afraid is afraid for their
11 physical safety, they were worried about what would happen to them if
12 they went back and no one could guarantee their safety. This is why most
13 of the people ultimately went back to Serbia."
14 Captain, let me ask you a question. When you were talking to
15 refugees were in there, how many people told you they still had either
16 husbands or sons that were still in the ARSK?
17 A. I had -- I never discussed that.
18 Q. Did you never ask that question?
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Now, turning to that issue, as you're in -- the refugee officer,
21 how many soldiers actually were allowed into the base by the UN?
22 A. I think, to my recollection, one.
23 Q. One.
24 A. Yeah. And when we find out, he was sent out. And that was not
25 an agreement. He came to the camp without proper identification or I
1 don't know what, but when it was found out that he was in the camp, he
2 was sent out.
3 Q. Now you were, as you described, the refugee officer, and let me
4 show you something -- read something to you from D514 from Major
5 Bellerose. He notes on the second page of this article, "because we
6 opened up the camp to displaced persons to provide security, there were
7 few Serb soldiers that came to try to get refuge within our camp. So we
8 said to them 'if you want to come in, you have to disarm, because if we
9 let you in with weapons, we're putting ourselves at risk.'"
10 Now, do you know anything about these soldiers that were allowed
11 in that Major Bellerose is referring?
12 A. I would like to have a look.
13 Q. Sure. If we can bring that up on the screen it is D514. It
14 comes from an article called One Soldier's Story, Major Claude Bellerose.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Of course we could look at it. But are you aware of
17 soldiers required to disarm and then let into the camp?
18 THE WITNESS: Sir, I became the refugee officer, the date is the
19 25th of August. So refugee has started from the 4th to the 25th. In
20 that period, you know, I was just like another staff officer at the UN
21 headquarters handling refugee.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But whatever time, are you aware of soldiers given
23 access to the camp but were required to disarm first?
24 THE WITNESS: No. But there was one during my term.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you explained that.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether there is any need then to give
3 the details of Mr. Bellerose.
4 MR. KEHOE: That's fine, Judge, I was just bringing it up because
5 the witness wanted it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. KEHOE: I just have a few more questions on this, Judge, and
8 I will conclude.
9 Q. Captain, in addition to what captain -- Major Bellerose is
10 talking about, were you aware of soldiers being taken from the Knin
11 hospital and being brought into UN Sector South?
12 A. No, I'm not aware, and it would not be adequate.
13 Q. What do you mean by adequate?
14 A. It's not something that was in the policy to my knowledge to
15 bring soldier on to our camp.
16 Q. Well, sir, there were 38 people who were turned over to the
17 Croatian authorities because they were suspected of war crimes by the
18 Croatian government, 38 individuals that were turned over by UN
19 Sector South to Croatian authorities. And you were in charge -- you were
20 the refugee officer at the time. Who were these 38 people?
21 A. I don't want to question the Defence but at what date?
22 Q. They were turned over in September of 1995, after you had become
23 the refugee officer at the UN camp.
24 A. To my recollection, we have not returned any people to the Croat
25 authority while I was the refugee officer. I think I state somewhere
1 when I went on leave, and that might be that time.
2 Can we check that? If you give me the exact date --
3 MR. HEDARALY: It's paragraph 35.
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. If you have the exact date of that, I would
5 be willing to check, because must have been after the 16. Before the
6 16th those people were not turned in, if they were turned in after.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. So you were aware that the Republic of Croatia
9 suspected war criminals, people suspected of war crimes that were in the
10 custody of UN Sector South, you were aware of that, weren't you?
11 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah they were looking for that.
12 Q. And?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just -- Mr. Hedaraly, were you referring to
14 paragraph 34 or 35?
15 MR. HEDARALY: 35 about when the witness was on leave which he
16 was looking for to assess to be able to answer the question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I thought you were referring to the
18 refugees that were wanted to be interviewed as --
19 MR. HEDARALY: I was referring to the date that he asked for when
20 he was on leave. But you're right, that is also in the statement.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. KEHOE:
24 Q. You were aware of that, weren't you, that these negotiations for
25 the turning over of people suspected of war crimes was ongoing?
1 A. What I was aware of is that the Croat wanted to have people in
2 the camp that were suspected of war crime from their perspective, not
3 from an UN perspective, you know --
4 Q. And these negotiations with the Republic of Croatia
5 for six weeks after Operation Storm, weren't they?
6 A. No. I would say one week after I was the refugee officer,
7 approximately, so it gives me a specific date, some -- sometime around
8 the 1st of September --
9 Q. 25 of August, paragraph 35.
10 A. Yeah. But I mean one week after I became the refugee officer
11 that those requests came in, you know, that they were looking for those
12 name and all that. Just to situate it, it would be around the 1st of
13 August that my recollection is they were looking for this list of war
14 crime -- war crime -- just as we said earlier, you know, the -- they
15 wanted a certain number of people because they allegedly, from their
16 perspective, says that they wanted for a crime against what, and that was
17 about the 1st of September, if I recall that's what we are looking for,
18 the period, so I would say 1st September.
19 Q. Well, sir, you went on -- and then you went on leave, according
20 to paragraph 35, from the 16th of September to the 7th of October. Did
21 you come back to UN Sector South at that point?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you come back as the refugee officer?
24 A. No. There was no more refugee when I came back.
25 Q. When you came back did you ask how the request by the Republic of
3 A. No, did I not.
4 Q. You didn't ask one question?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So you have no knowledge about the circumstances under which 38
7 individuals were turned over to the Republic of Croatia
8 Sector South?
9 A. Correct.
10 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I have no further questions of this
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
13 We will have a break until five minutes past 6.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cayley, are you ready to cross-examine the
18 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Just for timing
19 purposes, Mr. Kehoe has robbed me a lot of my thunder, and so I think I
20 will only be about ten minutes, essentially.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Gilbert, you will now be cross-examined by
22 Mr. Cayley, who is counsel for Mr. Cermak.
23 Please proceed.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Cayley:
25 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Registrar, if we could have Defence Exhibit 226.
1 Q. Captain Gilbert, if you could please direct your mind to
2 August after the Croatian authorities had retaken Knin, my question for
3 you in looking in this photograph, do you recall ever visiting these
5 A. Not 100 percent sure but this left building might be the one that
6 we went to for the 4th of August, 1210 meeting that we discussed earlier.
7 Q. And that would have been a meeting with the ARSK authorities?
8 A. Yes. What I was referring to, the small room when there were 12
10 Q. And after the ARSK authorities had left Knin and the Croatian
11 authorities were back in charge in Knin, do you ever recall visiting that
12 building again?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I have got to put this to you because I have instructions on
15 this. So this is actually the building in which Mr. Cermak and his small
16 team operated. Were you aware of that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So when you say in your statement that when you met with
19 Mr. Cermak on the 10th of August with General Forand, and I can direct
20 you to that. It's paragraph 26 of your statement.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You say that you met with Mr. Cermak in the white parliament
23 building on or about -- around the 10th of August, do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I see that.
25 Q. Is it possible that you're mistaken about that, that you didn't
1 in fact meet in the white parliament building?
2 A. My initial impression was that it was in the white parliament
3 building. Now that you're showing me that, it could have been that one.
4 I don't recall 100 percent sure.
5 Q. Thank you. You said earlier in an answer to Mr. Kehoe that --
6 and this is actually toward the end of your cross-examination by him and
7 you were speaking about the refugees in the camp and he was asking you
8 about the Croatian authorities' desire to investigate them for war
9 crimes. Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Are you aware that the issue of screening the men in the camp for
12 war crimes was something that was being discussed at a high level in
14 A. Yes, most probably. Yes.
15 Q. And you were aware of that because you were close to General
17 A. Not really. It's because I was the refugee officer and they were
18 asking a lot of question about what would happen to them.
19 Q. And -- sorry.
20 A. And I could not provide them any answer and that was a long
21 process, and I tried to -- to reassure them, but by that I mean that it
22 was a higher decision to return the refugee, yes.
23 Q. And in terms of this higher discussion process, were you aware
24 that Mr. Akashi himself was involved in those discussions with
25 representatives of the Croatian government?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. CAYLEY: If, please, the witness could be shown D29.
3 Q. Now, do you recall that in your response to Mr. Kehoe you
4 stated: "What I was aware is that the Croats want to the have people in
5 the camp that suspected of crimes from their perspective, not from UN
7 Do you recall stating that?
8 A. Yeah, I do.
9 MR. CAYLEY: If, please, we could look at the second page of the
10 document, paragraph 5.
11 Q. And, if, please, Captain Gilbert, you could look at the first two
12 sentences in paragraph 5. And let me know when you've read them.
13 A. Yes, I have read them.
14 Q. Now, this is a document -- if you could go to the front page.
15 Did you see this is a document from Mr. Akashi in Zagreb to Kofi Annan in
16 New York
17 A. Yeah, I saw that, but is it the same one that was shown to me
18 earlier and I went to the last paragraph?
19 Q. Yes, this is the same document.
20 A. Okay. So I saw that it was Akashi
21 first two sentence, yeah.
22 Q. So were you aware in August of 1995 that it was Mr. Akashi's view
23 that the government of Croatia
24 seeking to determine if any of the men in the camp you were involved in
25 war crimes? Were you aware that that was the UN view at the time?
1 A. Not on the 7th of August. This document is dated 7th of August?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. So, at that time no. But when I was the refugee officer, it
4 became known to me.
5 Q. That --
6 A. They were looking for suspected war crime criminal.
7 Q. But specifically my question is this: Were you aware at any time
8 that Annan -- that -- I'm sorry, that Mr. Akashi had said that the
9 Croatian authorities had a legitimate interest in seeking out those
10 persons in the camp who they suspected of war crimes?
11 A. No. But is this paragraph 4 exactly what it states? I --
12 Q. If you can go back to it, let's go and you can have another look
13 at it. That's what he says.
14 A. At which paragraph?
15 Q. It's paragraph 5, it's the second sentence.
16 A. I was not aware of that time but I'm reading those three or four
17 first line and Mr. Akashi saying has a legitimate interest, so that's
18 his -- that's what he wrote, so he must have meant that. But at that
19 time I didn't know.
20 Q. And he was the special representative of the Secretary-General
21 wasn't he, in Croatia
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So he -- in essence, his view was the view of the UN in Croatia
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I don't have any further questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Cayley.
4 Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready?
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gilbert, Mr. Kuzmanovic will now cross-examine
7 you. He is counsel for Mr. Markac.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic
11 Q. Your statement, P589, if that could be put up on the screen,
12 please. The first paragraph of your statement and if you have that in
13 front of you in the binder, feel free to refer to it.
14 Sir, do you have the statement in the binder in front of you? It
15 might be easier for you to refer to it in your binder than looking at it
16 on the screen.
17 A. But I don't know what is P584.
18 Q. It's your witness statement that you gave to the Office of the
19 Prosecutor in January of 2008.
20 A. Okay. I have it in front of me.
21 Q. Okay. The first paragraph says you became a captain in 1987. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. Of course it is correct.
24 Q. Okay. I was just unsure, because if you look at P593, and that
25 will probably have to be pulled up on the screen for you, on the first
1 page. The beginning part of it says: "After spending two years as a
2 regimental Sergeant Major I have since 8 July 1995 been performing the
3 duties of military assistant to the commander of Sector South."
4 Can you explain that, please?
5 A. What is your question?
6 Q. Can you explain in your article here by Captain Alain Gilbert,
7 P593, you describe yourself as a regimental Sergeant Major. Can you
8 explain the difference between your rank and what a regimental Sergeant
9 Major is?
10 A. This there is a mistake in the translation there.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. What I -- if it has been translated okay, it would have said a
13 regimental adjutant. That is what it says in French.
14 Q. Okay. So --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. So the English translation is incorrect. You have been a captain
17 since 1987?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Okay. Why don't we stick with P593 for a moment.
20 Did you have a chance to compare this translation to your
21 original, by the way?
22 A. Yes. Last night I read it.
23 Q. Okay. Other than that mistake, are there any other mistakes that
24 you happened to catch?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Okay. The second paragraph talks about how the headquarters is
2 made up and that I'm assuming is the headquarters of Sector South.
4 A. Yes, this is correct.
5 Q. The -- it discusses the make-up of general officers from the
6 various nations, and the second sentence says, and I will read it to you
7 and then I'll have a question for you: "Some of them are lazy and rarely
8 see the need to work to the end of the week. Others have the habit of
9 turning towards Mecca
10 "Be that as it may, I assure you once more of my pride in belonging to
11 the category of Canadian."
12 Now, my question to you is, did you feel that you and your
13 Canadian comrades had some better level of professionalism and experience
14 than the other members of the Sector South staff?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And was there a problem that you had with other people praying
17 and using their religion during their work?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What was the need for the comment of habit of turning towards
21 A. Because that is what was taking place in the headquarter.
22 Q. I'd like you to go to the next page, please.
23 The second paragraph talks about many people reading this will
24 have served in UN headquarters.
25 Well, who was your target audience for this article?
1 A. The member who have -- [Interpretation] The members who
2 subscribed to Citadelle, la Citadelle. It's a magazine.
3 Q. So it is a Canadian audience, in other words?
4 A. [In English] Yes, Canadian and more regimental audience.
5 Q. Okay. And feel free -- I know French is your native tongue.
6 Feel free if there is some problem to refer to that. We have excellent
7 interpreters, so --
8 The remainder of that paragraph discusses, among other things,
9 that there are -- and I will read that section: "I would confirm that
10 the problem of command coordination and control is repeated in the
11 absence of political solutions which I admit are difficult to adopt.
12 Each organism gets bogged down in justifying its existence, its role in
13 the field and the chain of command which directs it, whether it is the UN
14 civilian police, the UNHCR, or the civilian representatives. The
15 military commander is thus confronted by a multitude of political
16 obstacles which he could well do without. This is what I observe there."
17 And my question to you is: This difficulty in coordination and
18 in problems of command and control, is that something that you observed
19 in Knin during your time there, in Sector South?
20 A. Yes, yes, this is what the article is referring to.
21 Q. And is it true that in essence often times, for lack of a better
22 term, the right hand in Sector South didn't know what the left hand was
23 doing because of this lack of control?
24 A. If you could be more precise.
25 Q. Sure. You said that there was a difficulty in command and
1 coordination among the various organisations that were headquartered in
2 Sector South over which General Forand had command. Correct?
3 A. He was the Sector South commander. Not sure if the highest UN or
4 civilian representative there was really under him. They were at some
5 kind of level, but he was certainly the military authority commander,
7 Q. So there was difficulty in communications within Sector South
8 despite who was in military command. Correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And that was in a time when there was absolutely no fighting
11 going on. Correct?
12 I mean you got there in June of 1995, right, so before
13 Operation Storm there was some difficulty even before there was any kind
14 of fighting going on in knowing essentially what was going on and who was
15 speaking with whom.
16 A. Yes, in a lesser extent, but, yes.
17 Q. When you served in Sarajevo
18 under General McKenzie?
19 A. He was the Sarajevo UN commander there, so there's all kind of
20 unit working for him. I was part of the unit that was serving for him.
21 But not directly. You know, I have never met him, but I served under
23 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to go back to your statement, please.
24 And before we do that, I guess, you served as an aide to General Forand,
25 you stated. What exactly did you do? Can you give us a description of
1 your role before Operation Storm?
2 A. Agenda, overseeing the resident staff. I also saw myself as
3 somehow his body-guard or being personally responsible for his security
4 and accompanied him during various Sector South unit visits before
5 Operation Storm, yeah.
6 Q. Can you describe what you mean by agenda? Would you set the
7 agenda for the day?
8 A. Yeah, yeah. Not for the day itself, but for planning of visit or
9 conference in Zagreb
10 authority and putting the calendar together.
11 Q. Who else was on that resident staff?
12 A. There was Corporal Desroches, who was living there. He was a
13 driver. And master corporal Ellis, the cook.
14 Q. Anyone else?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you have any interpreters?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was your position in terms of the things that you did the same
19 other than you mentioned you were refugee -- in charge of the refugees.
20 Did your position change at all after Operation Storm?
21 A. Yeah, it changed when I became the refugee officer, but I would
22 say between the period of the 5th of August until the became the refugee
23 officer, we were to create new accommodation on Sector South, new --
24 because we were living outside so I was responsible to put that up, and
25 less of the calendar, and, let's say the day-to-day running of the
2 Q. Were you the person -- would you be -- let me try to think of a
3 different way to phrase this.
4 When General Forand would go to a meeting, would you be with him
5 at all the meetings?
6 A. Yes. But not all of them. There's some in my statement that I
7 was not there and I know that General Forand went to other meeting
8 without me.
9 Q. Now, at that time Colonel Leslie was the Chief of Staff. What
10 was your relationship with Colonel Leslie?
11 A. He was the Chief of Staff until, I would say, around the 4th of
12 August and the new Chief of Staff came in, and because of the war it
13 could not left, so he was still in the headquarter for four or five days,
14 I would estimate, and I had a good relationship with Colonel Leslie also.
15 Q. I'd like you to refer to paragraph 35 of your statement, please.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. And you -- in this paragraph you discussion the refugees. And
18 I'll go to the sentence that starts with "they" on the third line,
19 "they," and I'm presuming that those are the Serb refugees. Correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. "Were worried about what would happen to them if they went back
22 and no one could guarantee their safety. This is why most of the people
23 ultimately went back to Serbia
24 And my question to you is, is it your understanding that these
25 refugees originally came from Serbia
1 to Serbia
2 A. No. My understanding is that they were from Serb ethnic origin
3 living in Knin, I would say, for at least the last three years, and then
4 there was no other -- no other choice than going back to Serbia
5 or going back to -- I'm mentioning Serbia but I think that when they left
6 the camp they all went back to Belgrade
7 Q. Were you aware at any time of any efforts that were undertaken by
8 the Croatian government to try to ensure their safety if they stayed?
9 A. Oh, yes, that was mentioned.
10 Q. So you, as refugee officer, were aware of statements made by the
11 Croatian government to try to keep these people from leaving. Correct?
12 A. Yes. When General Cermak came and met with the refugee, that was
13 the message that was passed to them.
14 Q. I'd like to refer to paragraph 29, please.
15 And the third line, which is -- starts: "When we got there,"
16 meaning to General Forand's residence. Correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. "We could see that the entire house had been thrashed, completely
19 vandalized allegedly by the Croatian soldiers, special police, military
20 police and the Croat occupation forces in general."
21 Now, is there anyone else that you wanted to add to that list?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How do you know that -- can you identify what a special police
24 member looks like?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can you identify what a military police member looks like?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What do they look like?
4 A. They had a special brassar [phoen] identifying them as military
5 police Croat.
6 Q. Did you see this alleged vandalisation occur?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is it true at least by identifying these specific individual
9 groups that you're guessing which if anything of them might have
10 committed this? I mean, you don't have any personal knowledge of this.
12 A. I did not witness the destruction and be able to identify the
13 member who did that.
14 Q. I mean, it obviously happened, right?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. But you can't identify which if any of these people in these
17 groups conducted this. Correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. That's all I have.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
22 Mr. Hedaraly.
23 MR. HEDARALY: Just one brief point, Your Honour.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Captain Gilbert, just a minor point for
1 clarification. You've just been asked a question and you answered that
2 General Cermak came and told the refugees to stay. But in your
3 statement, you say that these refugees were afraid for their safety
4 because no one could guarantee the safety. How could you reconcile this,
6 A. [Interpretation] Well, General Cermak during those meetings, said
7 that they were welcome, that they were welcome to leave the camp and go
8 home in Knin, return to their homes in Knin, where the Croatian forces
9 would make sure that they would be safe and that the camp -- refugees in
10 the camp hesitated and did not really wish to go back in -- in town in
11 Knin because they were afraid for their safety. So maybe this is a --
12 this reconciles this, but at least -- all I can say is that what General
13 Cermak was saying did not reassure them at all.
14 Q. Do you know why they feared for their safety?
15 A. If I remember well, at first, on the 4th and the 5th and a few
16 days later, I wasn't in charge of the refugees yet but some refugees left
17 and went in town but they came back to the camp because they were -- they
18 were afraid. I can't really say what exactly they saw or -- or in what
19 circumstances they might have witnessed horrible things, but they weren't
20 prone to going back, obviously. They did not want to go back to Knin,
21 and you know, when you've got a great number of refugees rumour spreads
22 very fast. People talk and word to mouth goes around on what has -- what
23 happened, so it's -- obviously no refugee wanted to go back to Knin
24 because they feared for their safety. Maybe because of that.
25 Q. Thank you, Captain.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Has the re-examination caused any need to put
3 further questions to the witness?
4 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Mr. Gilbert, this brings your
6 testimony to an end in this case. I wanted to thank you for coming here
7 to The Hague
8 and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... out of the
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know who to address. Is your next witness
14 available already? We have 20 minutes left.
15 MR. HEDARALY: I don't believe so, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I know that there was no other witness scheduled for
17 today, and --
18 MR. HEDARALY: But she is here and will be available tomorrow
20 JUDGE ORIE: She will be available tomorrow morning.
21 Under those circumstances, if there is no other procedural issue
22 to be discussed at this moment --
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I do have one question.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And maybe I'm mistaken in this impression. The
1 next witness is not protected.
2 MR. HEDARALY: No, not to my knowledge.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: There was some confusion on my part. So I'm
4 glad it was cleared up. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any other matter?
6 If not, we'll adjourn and we'll resume tomorrow, the 15th of
7 July, at 9.00 in the morning, in Courtroom I.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.40 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of July,
10 2008, at 9.00 a.m.