080714IT

Page 6401

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will say

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: ALAIN GILBERT

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. You may sit

7 down. Mr. Hedaraly.

8 MR. HEDARALY: Before Mr. Usher sits down, if I can give him a

9 copy of his statements and exhibits.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

11 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Good morning, captain.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Could you please give us your name for this transcript?

15 A. My name is Alain Gilbert.

16 Q. Captain Gilbert, do you remember having been interviewed by the

17 investigators of the OTP on January 29, 2008?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you made a statement to the OTP based on this interview

20 statement which you signed on February 5, 2008?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You re-read this statement yesterday? Have you read this

23 statement once again yesterday?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Does this statement reflect faithfully what you told to the OTP

Page 6402

1 during the interview with the investigator?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what -- the content of this statement reflects the truth, as

4 far as you know, as far as --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Finally, if the same questions were put to you again today, same

7 questions of those that were asked when you were interviewed by the OTP,

8 would you answer in the same way?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I have

11 document 5319 be on the screen.

12 Q. Captain Gilbert, could you confirm that the statement that we see

13 now on the screen is the one that we mentioned earlier?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the document

16 5319 be tendered into evidence under Rule 92 ter.

17 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

19 Mr. Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number 589.

21 JUDGE ORIE: P589 is admitted into evidence.

22 MR. HEDARALY: If we could please have 65 ter 5215, please.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, you have heard the request to slow

25 down for the interpreters? No. Well, now you have.

Page 6403

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Gilbert, we see an aerial photograph on the screen. Is this

4 the base of the UN in Knin in 1995?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On this picture, you circled in red the place where your office

7 was. Is that it?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. HEDARALY: If I could now have 65 ter 5335, please.

10 Can I have the assistance of Mr. Usher to provide a photograph

11 for the witness to place on the ELMO.

12 There seems to be a problem with uploading in e-court, but they

13 are going to be resolving it shortly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, is 65 ter 5335, is that an article

15 written by this witness, which you sought to be uploaded, or is it

16 something else?

17 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour. It is a picture. A photograph.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's the one that we have now on our screen?

19 MR. HEDARALY: Yes. Yes, Your Honour, it is.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

21 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Gilbert, do we see the -- does this photograph represent the

23 base of the UN in Knin?

24 A. Yes, part of it in Knin.

25 MR. HEDARALY: If I could have the assistance of the Mr. Usher so

Page 6404

1 the witness can mark this picture.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gilbert, with the electronic pen, could you

3 please circle your office on this photograph?

4 A. Of course.

5 Q. Can you please a B next to it for B like bureau, office in

6 French.

7 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, at this time ...

8 [French on English Channel]

9 MR. KEHOE: Unfortunately, my French is not what it should be.

10 We got the French translation on the English channel.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is true. I was listening to the English

12 as well. But what Mr. Hedaraly asked is to have the two documents to be

13 admitted under one number. That is the aerial photograph and this

14 photograph marked by the witness where his office was marked with the

15 letter B.

16 MR. KEHOE: There's no objection to that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No objection to that. Mr. Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P590.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P590, consisting of one aerial photograph and one

20 photograph marked by the witness, is admitted into evidence.

21 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

22 tender the following exhibits that are joined to the statement. 65 ter

23 5214, those are the notes made by the witness on the morning of August 4,

24 1995. 65 ter 5216, the text of an article written by this witness. And

25 exhibit 438 which is the minutes of a meeting held on August 4th by

Page 6405

1 General Forand and the representative of the RSK.

2 All these documents are attached to the statement and the basis

3 for their tendering can be find in the statement of the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, one by one first --

5 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. KEHOE: I have no objection to any of those exhibits. I

8 would ask that they be subsequently numbered as opposed to one bulk

9 number.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's how I understood Mr. Hedaraly's request,

11 to have them one by one.

12 MR. KEHOE: Pardon me.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, first the notes, I do understand

14 handwritten notes made by the witness on the morning of the 4th of

15 August, 5214.

16 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes exhibit number P591, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: P591 is admitted into evidence.

18 The next one being 438, minutes of a meeting held on August the

19 4th with General Forand and representative of the RSK.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes exhibit number P592, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: P592 is admitted into evidence.

22 And then the --

23 MR. HEDARALY: 5216.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was 5216.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes exhibit number P593, Your Honours.

Page 6406

1 JUDGE ORIE: P593 is admitted into evidence.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

3 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

4 Q. For your information, there is one document that is joined and is

5 mentioned on paragraph 28 of this statement, but it has already been

6 tendered into evidence as D197 -- D297.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are informed now. That's what you said,

9 isn't it?

10 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you. If we could have 65 ter 5336 on the

11 screen, please.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Captain Gilbert, let me show you a few

13 photographs that were taken from the third floor balcony of the UN base

14 in Knin. This will soon be on the screen in front of you.

15 A. I see them.

16 Q. Does this photograph show part of what you saw from your office

17 when looking at Knin?

18 A. Yes. This picture was taken from the balcony. If I remember

19 well, the window of my office must have been about ten metres off on the

20 right. But this is what I would see from my window.

21 Q. In the notes that you made on the morning of August 4th as well

22 as in your statement, paragraph 15, for example, you refer, and I will

23 say -- quote in English, because your notes are in English [Previous

24 translation continues] ... building.

25 [Interpretation] In your statement you say that you were using

Page 6407

1 that parliament white building as a reference. Can you see it on this

2 photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could our usher please help us once again so that the witness can

5 mark the document and if you could circle it red, please.

6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Excuse me, could we please have a indicate that

7 the photograph was taken? Thank you.

8 MR. HEDARALY: It was last year, I believe, in the fall of 2007.

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.

10 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge, my recollection is that it is in

11 late November of 2007. I think that's about right.

12 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe. That would be the fall.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Could you kindly place the letter P alongside

14 the parliament building, please?

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Could we save this photograph and

18 move on to the next photograph. It's a series of three.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, do you want at a later stage to tender

20 the unmarked photograph as well or just the marked version?

21 MR. HEDARALY: There will be two marked and one unmarked, and I

22 will tender the series of two marked and one unmarked as one exhibit.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now have the unmarked version again on my

24 screen.

25 MR. HEDARALY: The second page of this document should be a

Page 6408

1 different picture. Here we go. Thank you.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Captain Gilbert, this photograph is a view you

3 had from your balcony slightly to the right. Is that right?

4 A. That's right.

5 MR. HEDARALY: [Previous translation continues] ... of that

6 document, please.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Once again, Captain, in this picture we see the

8 view or part of the view you had from your office on the 4th of August,

9 1995. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. I realise on looking at this photograph that there were two

11 balconies in front of the building. My office was on the right-hand side

12 ten metres away. So, in fact, it's a second balcony which I indicated a

13 while ago. My office was to the right of that and that was a view I had

14 from my window.

15 Q. In your notes and in your statement in paragraph 17 and 18, you

16 refer to a small hill. In English you say [In English]... hill.

17 [Interpretation] Can you tell us whether you can see this small

18 hill you referred to?

19 A. It's certainly one of those two hills, but on looking at this

20 photograph I don't know which hill is the smallest. But in paragraph 17

21 what I mentioned was that it was behind the smallest of the two hills.

22 Or hillocks.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

25 tender these three photographs into evidence. And I would like just one

Page 6409

1 exhibit number. The first photograph was marked by the witness.

2 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge. That one question will be a little

3 confusing on cross, so I would ask that we put separate numbers for these

4 photos.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to -- I was confused by the answer about

6 the two balconies.

7 First question: Are all the photographs taken from the same

8 balcony?

9 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, they are, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And then, Mr. Gilbert, was this balcony which we see

11 prominently in the front of this picture, was that the balcony in front

12 of your office or is it the one in the back that was in front of your

13 office? I see two balconies on this photograph, the one from which the

14 photograph is taken and other one further away. Which one is the one in

15 front of your office?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one which is the furthest away,

17 my window did not give on to the balcony but on to the window next door.

18 So to be very precise, it's a window which is to the right-hand side five

19 metres approximately from the furthest -- the balcony that is the

20 furthest away.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So it is the -- I don't know whether it is one

22 building or two buildings, but at least the balcony further away was the

23 balcony of the building your office was in, but, you say, your office did

24 not give entrance to the balcony but was to the right of that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. And that -- we're

Page 6410

1 talking about the same building. It's one and the same building.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently two parts of that building, I can't

3 see that on this photograph.

4 Then I have one further question: To the right of that further

5 away balcony seen from the building or facing the building?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the building.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the furthest away from what we see on this

8 photograph at this moment?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 Mr. Registrar, we have now three photographs. The first one

12 marked by the witness, Mr. Registrar.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar suggests, and I'm inclined to follow

15 him, that we first have the unmarked photograph with just a tiny little

16 bit of the corner of the balcony and that would be, Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that's 65 ter 05336 and becomes

18 exhibit number P594.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P594 is admitted into evidence.

20 Now the second exhibit is the same photograph but now marked by

21 the witness with the white parliament building.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes exhibit number P595, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's not the one that's on our screen at the

24 moment but P594 -- no, I'm -- the second exhibit now, the photograph

25 marked by the witness is P595 and is admitted into evidence.

Page 6411

1 The next one, unmarked photograph.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P596.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P596 is admitted into evidence.

4 And, finally, the last one with the two balconies.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes exhibit number P597, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: P597 which we now see on our screen is admitted into

7 evidence.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Could we go back to P590. Captain, I'd like to clarify what you

11 have just said to the Presiding Judge of this Chamber.

12 The balcony from which the photographs were taken, the balcony

13 we've just seen, are those the balconies that we see on the right hand of

14 this building here?

15 A. Yes. I can tell you where it is if you like.

16 Q. That's not necessary.

17 A. To the right-hand side of this building.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. HEDARALY: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to read

20 a short summary of the witness's statement, and I shall read it out in

21 English.

22 [In English] Alain Gilbert was an officer in the Canadian armed

23 forces stationed in Knin in 1995 with UNCRO as General Alain Forand's

24 aide-de-camp. On the morning of 4 August 1995, he observed the shelling

25 of Knin from his office on the top floor of the UN headquarters. He

Page 6412

1 recorded some of his observations regarding the shelling that morning in

2 his notebook, including the fact that MRLs were used at 5.00 a.m.

3 In addition, he also provides evidence on the shelling on the

4 morning of the 5th of August, 1995, and, in particular, an initial

5 barrage of approximately 400 shells that fell between 5.19 and 5.25.

6 Mr. Gilbert also noticed burning and looting in Knin and around

7 after Operation Storm. He became the refugee officer at the UN camp on

8 25 August 1995, and his impression was that most of the Serbs wanted to

9 go back to their houses but were afraid of doing so for their safety.

10 This concludes my summary, Your Honours, as well as my direct

11 examination.

12 [Interpretation] Thank you, Captain.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Hedaraly.

14 Mr. Kehoe, I take it that you would like to have the lectern.

15 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to cross-examine the

17 witness?

18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, just get a little situated I'll be

19 ready to go.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gilbert, you will now be cross-examined by

21 Mr. Kehoe, who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

23 Q. Good afternoon, captain. I would like to ask you a few questions

24 from your statements and from your article and if we jump around a little

25 bit just bear with me, but I would direct your attention to the documents

Page 6413

1 before you as we go through things.

2 Now, the first item that I would like to talk to you about,

3 Captain, is the statement that you make in paragraph 36 of your

4 statement, 589.

5 Now, captain, you had come to Knin on the 8th of July and you

6 note in your -- paragraph 36 that there were no Croats living in Knin in

7 August of 1995.

8 Now, when you were in Knin, did you talk to the Serb population

9 as to why there were no Croats living in Knin?

10 A. No. This was through our briefings in the morning which we had

11 at the UNHCR and cooperation meetings that this information was conveyed

12 to me, I arrived in Knin rather, on the 28th of June.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

14 JUDGE ORIE: I am mistaken if I read in paragraph 36 that five

15 per cent of -- oh, no. I see that, now I see that. It's the last line,

16 yes.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. KEHOE: I apologise.

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I made a mistake.

20 MR. KEHOE:

21 Q. Nevertheless, I mean, did you converse with the Serb population

22 in Knin prior to Operation Storm?

23 A. Not really.

24 Q. When you say "not really," what do you mean, not really? Did you

25 talk to them?

Page 6414

1 A. No. The only people were employees in the camp that were Serb,

2 but I didn't speak to any locals, any local Serbs living there.

3 Q. And when you -- when you spoke to the Serbs that were in the camp

4 did you ask them what happened to the Croats in Knin?

5 A. No. But I know -- I did know what happened to them.

6 Q. What did you know?

7 A. Undoubtedly, more than undoubtedly, they were expelled from the

8 town of Knin in 1992.

9 Q. Now let me focus in on the time-frame prior to Operation Storm

10 and, if I may, I'd like to direct your attention to your article which is

11 P593.

12 MR. KEHOE: And if we could bring that up on the screen.

13 Q. This is a -- page 3 in the English. I'm not sure what it is in

14 the French.

15 MR. HEDARALY: It's tab 5 in the binder the witness has, just for

16 --

17 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much, counsellor. I don't know how

18 Your Honour wants to handle this between the B/C/S and the English and

19 the French, but I just ask for Your Honours's guidance as to what comes

20 up on the screen. I'm going to obviously deal with the English version

21 and the witness can deal with either one, I'm sure.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if there would be any -- if they're not

23 fully congruent, then we will --

24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 6415

1 MR. KEHOE:

2 Q. And I'm dealing, captain, with the third page in the English

3 about middle of the way down and you're talking about the shelling on the

4 1st of August and note about -- about the individuals coming to the camp.

5 Women, children, and old people who had not left the night before, either

6 by personal choice or because they had no means of transport, were hiding

7 in the basement.

8 And I wanted to talk to about your comment there, had not left

9 the night before. And I take it that, sir, you know then Major

10 Bellerose, do you not?

11 A. It's a major, yes, he is a major. Not --

12 MR. HEDARALY: [Previous translation continues] ... the Article

13 is the 4th of August, not the 1st of August.

14 MR. KEHOE: My apologies. I was talking about the 4th. If I

15 said the 1st, I stand corrected.

16 Q. Yes. Major Bellerose in his diary, and this is exhibit 513,

17 noted on the 28th of July of 1995 that the locals were leaving the area.

18 I'm going to go through a sequence of events, captain, and just ask you

19 some questions about it.

20 Again, on the 29th of July, again in D513, Major Bellerose said

21 that the people in Knin are very nervous, a lot of them are leaving town

22 and refugees from Bosansko Grahovo are arriving.

23 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. HEDARALY: I think we had last week once again, that if the

Page 6416

1 testimony or something of someone else is being shown to confront the

2 witness, the question should be asked of him. He talked about the 4th in

3 his article. I think he should first be asked if he has any knowledge of

4 these people on the 29th of July and then be confronted with

5 Mr. Bellerose's statement or diary or testimony. I think that's what we

6 had this discussion last week about and Your Honour referred to a

7 transcript portion of a few weeks ago.

8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, we did not have the discussion in this

9 fashion and what I'm doing is highlighting a sequence of events of items

10 that have come into evidence with Prosecution witnesses and then asking

11 the witness based on what he said in his article. Now, this is not the

12 sequence of events as presented by the Prosecution. I'm sorry.

13 MR. HEDARALY: But he has not testified or brought any evidence

14 on the 28th of July, so he should first be asked the question given a

15 chance to then be confronted.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly is asking you to first, without

17 referring to other evidence, to elicit from the witness what he knows

18 about the event, and only after that, to put to him what other

19 evidence --

20 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, this is items that are already in

21 evidence and are part of the record. What I am doing is bringing to this

22 witness's attention items that are part of the record and then asking him

23 questions based on evidence in the record. That's what I'm doing here in

24 an expeditious form, as opposed to taking these items sequentially. The

25 jumping off point is his comment that these people had left the night

Page 6417

1 before and I am simply taking him through a sequence of events or items

2 that have come into evidence already. This is not something that I'm

3 pulling out that hasn't come in from a Prosecution witness already.

4 MR. HEDARALY: And --

5 JUDGE ORIE: That apparently is not the issue. The issue

6 apparently is that Mr. Hedaraly, and I would have to review exactly what

7 we said about that, if you could give me a source, Mr. Hedaraly, I'll try

8 to find it. The issue is that prior to putting to the witness what is in

9 evidence already, first ask the witness without putting that to him what

10 he knows about it.

11 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I will take the long way around and this

12 is going the long way around.

13 MR. HEDARALY: Well -- 4881 to 4883 --

14 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, I wasn't finished speaking.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I asked --

16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Hedaraly to give me the reference.

18 MR. KEHOE: And I was responding to a --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So at that moment, I think, Mr. Hedaraly,

20 polite approach would have been not to interrupt Mr. Kehoe. At the same

21 time I thank you for finding the point -- the reference for me.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe. And I'll check exactly what was said

23 for this first question, if you take what you call the long route.

24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 6418

1 MR. KEHOE:

2 Q. Captain Gilbert, on the 28th of July, did you see a general

3 mobilisation of ARSK soldiers in Knin?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So when a Prosecution witness Major Bellerose wrote in his diary

6 on 28th July general mobilisation is happening in town, you don't know

7 anything about that?

8 A. I don't know what you mean. These are the words spoken by Major

9 Bellerose. I don't remember that there was such a general mobilisation.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I'm sorry for interrupting you, but due

11 to the quick exchange of views now the reference doesn't appear on the

12 transcript, so I have difficulties in finding it.

13 Could you please, Mr. Hedaraly, repeat the reference you just

14 gave.

15 MR. HEDARALY: I will do in a second, Your Honour. I'm just

16 getting a little lost myself. If you'll just give me a few minutes I'll

17 be able to answer.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine, but please not by interrupting Mr.

19 Kehoe. Wait until he has finished his sentences.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Captain, were you aware that on the 28th of July that

23 Bosansko Grahovo had fallen to the HV?

24 A. No. I don't remember the operational sequence of the various

25 parties present. This was not part of my job. I don't remember, no.

Page 6419

1 Q. Were you aware, Captain that on the 28th of July, the president

2 of the Republic of Serb Krajina, Milan Martic, declared a state of war

3 throughout the entire Krajina?

4 A. I don't remember anything of this kind.

5 Q. Staying on the 28th, were you aware that the local population was

6 leaving the area?

7 A. It's quite possible.

8 Q. I'm going to ask you, did you know it or did you not?

9 A. No, I didn't know.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.

11 MR. HEDARALY: 4861, 4862.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly. Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

13 MR. KEHOE:

14 Q. Now, again going further, on the 29th of July, moving yet closer

15 to Operation Storm, were you aware in Knin that the civilian population

16 was leaving?

17 A. It's likely that the population in Knin was beginning to leave

18 around those dates.

19 Q. Well, tell us what you know about that, captain, about the

20 population leaving Knin around those dates.

21 A. Well, there was a state of panic of a sort in Knin. There were

22 rumours circulating and saying that there would be a Croatian attack

23 against Knin in the next few weeks or days. In fact, together with

24 General Forand, when we did our rounds and visits the UN forces, we were

25 called back to the camp, because there was some emergency. There was

Page 6420

1 something going on, because there was a state of panic in Knin.

2 I could say that there was a -- a likely attack on the part of

3 the Croatian on the 28th and 29th of July. I believe that the civilian

4 population had started to leave Knin already.

5 Q. And did they leave -- and how did the civilian population leave?

6 A. Whichever way they could, and they crossed through Bosnia.

7 Q. Now, Captain, did this exodus of the civilian population continue

8 from the 28th and the 29th through the eve of Operation Storm?

9 A. Yes, I agree with that.

10 Q. So you would agree, sir, that the exodus of the civilian

11 population throughout Knin all this time was quite extensive, wasn't it?

12 A. I don't agree with you particularly, but there was an exodus of

13 the people living there.

14 Q. Now, sir, during this same time-frame did you also see a build-up

15 of military personnel and military vehicles in and around the Knin area?

16 A. No.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... read you the testimony of

18 another Prosecution witness, Jan Elleby, who was a CIVPOL police officer

19 who noted that now as we move -- this is on page 3474.

20 "Question: Now as we move through July of 1995 you note in your

21 supplemental information sheet, and it says well, actually -- I think it

22 begins on P214, that you saw a lot of soldiers on the street but in your

23 supplemental sheet you observed an increased number of RSK troops in Knin

24 in this period. In the period building up to Operation Storm, can you

25 tell us about that a little?"

Page 6421

1 "Answer: Yes. The assessment of the picture in the streets in

2 the town was that from a few days in July up to the end of July, that

3 there came more and more military vehicles, more and more uniformed

4 military personnel."

5 "Question: And did you and other CIVPOL monitors observe that

6 while you were driving around the area?"

7 "Answer: Yes."

8 Is that informing by Mr. Elleby consistent with your observations

9 in Knin at the latter part of July?

10 A. That information stems from Mr. Elleby. That's what he remembers

11 from those times. I don't remember a huge build-up as this gentleman has

12 mentioned.

13 Q. Well, there was a military presence in Knin, wasn't there, prior

14 to Operation Storm?

15 A. Yes, there was a military presence. There was.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.

17 And that military presence, sir, was quite significant, wasn't

18 it?

19 A. No. I can't quantify it any way and say it was significant or

20 not. I know that there was a military presence since one could come

21 across soldiers when one went to the residence, from the camp to the

22 residence.

23 Q. Well, sir, as of the 5th of August the speculation in UN

24 Sector South was that Knin would not fall until 48 hours later and

25 possibly not till a week later. Isn't that so?

Page 6422

1 A. What I remember is that it might have been 24 hours, 48 hours, a

2 week before, or even more. So that is right. If you say 24, 24 hours,

3 48 hours, that's right. Personally, I thought that might have been a bit

4 longer.

5 Q. Let's turn directly to your article and go to page 4 in the

6 English. The first full paragraph after the carry-over paragraph.

7 A. [In English] The one that start with: "We expect"?

8 Q. Yes. Yes, sir. I'm just waiting for it to come up on the

9 screen, captain, if I may.

10 The second sentence in: "At 5th August at 0519, 1995, another

11 intensive artillery barrage, more than 500 shells fall on the town in six

12 minutes. The forecast of when the Croatian forces will arrive in Knin

13 proceed apace. 48-72 hours to one week or more."

14 So the belief in Sector South was that there was at least another

15 48 hours before Knin was going to fall. Isn't that so?

16 A. [Interpretation] I don't know what people believed in

17 Sector South, but that's what I believed.

18 Q. And that belief was based on the fact that you thought that the

19 ARSK had the military strength in Knin to fight off the HV for between 48

20 to 72 hours to one week. Isn't that right?

21 A. Yes. But I believed it was a matter of defending Knin from the

22 outside and protecting it that way.

23 Q. And the -- Knin was in fact defended out on various front line

24 areas, wasn't it?

25 A. I don't think that Knin was defended by several front lines.

Page 6423

1 Q. Well, there was a front line, was there not, that was manned by

2 the RSK with both personnel and artillery. Isn't that right?

3 A. Probably. I don't know where those lines were, but we have every

4 reason to believe that the RSK had soldiers there that were defending

5 that.

6 Q. Is your testimony, Captain, that you don't know where the front

7 lines were and where the ARSK positions were on the front line?

8 A. When I was there, we visited some of the positions, some of the

9 Serb positions and some of the Croatian positions with our aides and

10 liaison officer, but I cannot describe to you the front lines and the

11 Serb defence line as they were protecting Knin.

12 Q. So, you knew that they were on the front line but you don't know

13 where the front line was? And I'm talking about the ARSK now.

14 A. That's correct. We don't know what the -- how many soldiers they

15 had either.

16 Q. So if -- if I can just take that once step further, if there was

17 shelling somewhere on the front line between the ARSK and the HV, you

18 wouldn't know who was shelling whom, would you? You would just hear it?

19 A. Could you repeat your question again. I had a problem with the

20 translation. I would like to hear it in English, please. Could I have

21 it again, please?

22 Q. Absolutely, captain. And if at any time that you don't

23 understand one of my questions, just tell me, okay?

24 Captain, so if there was shelling going on on the front line

25 between the HV and the ARSK and you were hearing this from the UN

Page 6424

1 Sector South headquarters, you wouldn't know who was firing on whom,

2 would you, because you didn't know where these positions on the front

3 lines were?

4 A. I was in the Knin camp, on -- the artillery fire from the 4th and

5 5th of July went over our camp and reached Knin. So I knew that these

6 shots came from the south. But I cannot believe that this would be

7 anything other than Croatian artillery fire that was over our heads and

8 landed in Knin, but I didn't know exactly where the front lines were but

9 I was able to detect where the shots came from and where they landed.

10 Q. Was there shelling going on on the front line area, Captain?

11 A. I don't know about that. Probably. But this was not part of my

12 responsibilities. There was certainly some firing on the front lines,

13 but I wasn't involved in that.

14 Q. When you were in the UN Sector South headquarters, could you hear

15 it?

16 A. On the 4th and 5th of August, yes, very well.

17 Q. And when you heard this firing on the front line, isn't it a fact

18 that you don't know who was firing on whom, do you?

19 A. I knew who was firing at who. The -- the shooting came from the

20 south, went over our heads, and fell on Knin.

21 Q. If I may, sir. Let us pull up P102.

22 Captain, this is UN sitrep report from UNMO's headquarters

23 Sector South dated 4th August at 2000 hours. If we can go three pages

24 in, the bottom of the page. Reports from KenBat. You know the KenBat

25 locations, captain?

Page 6425

1 A. You're talking about KenBat or CanBat 1?

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. I couldn't tell you today where that was. But, yes, I knew where

4 the Kenyans were.

5 Q. They were between Strmica and up on the Dinara, weren't they?

6 A. I can't tell that you. I don't know.

7 Q. Just bear with me here, Colonel. As of -- this is 2000 hours on

8 the 4th. There are 1230 bomb reports from the Kenyan Battalion, 638 from

9 the ARSK, 592 from the HV HVO. Do you have any idea whether or not when

10 you were in UN Sector South if you heard that type of artillery fire

11 taking place?

12 A. Your Honour, I have problems with the translation. Could you

13 tell me the question in English again, please? Could you repeat it?

14 Q. Sure. Let me just read it to you again. I think it might be on

15 your screen.

16 As of -- this is it 2000 hours on the 4th there are 1230 bomb

17 reports from the Kenyan Battalion, 648 from the ARSK, 592 from the HV

18 HVO. Do you have any idea whether or not you -- when you were in UN

19 Sector South you heard that type of artillery fire taking place?

20 A. I didn't hear the firing. I certainly couldn't have heard the

21 firing coming from the Kenyans.

22 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you could not hear artillery fire

23 from the location of the Kenyan Battalion?

24 A. I don't know. Your Honour, as far as I remember, the Kenyan

25 positions were far removed. I can't tell you exactly where they were

Page 6426

1 compared with our headquarters in Knin. But the shots that fell and the

2 shots that could be fired, I'm talking about artillery fire in the Kenyan

3 sector, well, those shots, I did not hear. That's for sure.

4 Q. Okay. Let us turn our attention, and we'll get back that in a

5 bit when we start talking about the artillery that you did in fact

6 observe in Knin and we'll talk a little bit about this. And let us go to

7 the evening of the 3rd. Do you know that on the evening of the 3rd,

8 Colonel Leslie talked to Major Dussault and they told Mr. Bellerose, and

9 this is it in P546. They went into the ops room and Mr. Bellerose say I

10 went into the operations room to speak to them and they told me that they

11 had received a message stating that something was likely to happen the

12 following day.

13 Now, do you recall Colonel Leslie telling General Forand that he

14 had received that message at 2300 and that something was likely to happen

15 the following day?

16 A. No, I didn't know about this, about this discussion and I don't

17 know whether Colonel Leslie said that to General Forand or not.

18 Q. Well, had he told General Forand that, you being General Forand's

19 aide-de-camp, would you have known about it?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, one second, please.

23 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, he answered the question. Now it's

24 calling for speculation.

25 MR. KEHOE: I took the question as if he had told Forand, would

Page 6427

1 this gentleman, this captain who was his aide-de-camp, would he have

2 known about it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, of course it is speculative to the

4 extent that we do not know whether it was told to Mr. Forand and

5 therefore not whether the message could have been passed to Mr. Gilbert.

6 At the same time, Mr. Kehoe is asking if you'd look at it in a more

7 general way as to whether information received by Mr. Forand would, under

8 normal circumstances, read -- reach Mr. Gilbert, and that question is

9 admissible.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

11 Mr. Kehoe, may I take that that's what you wanted to ask --

12 MR. KEHOE: You're absolutely right.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you choose the right formulation right away, then

14 Mr. Hedaraly is --

15 MR. KEHOE: No, no, Your Honour I was just waiting for the usher

16 to --

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I meant if you initially had formulated the

18 question as I did it and --

19 MR. KEHOE: Yours was much better, Judge.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that.

21 MR. HEDARALY: I agree with that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: It avoids objections by Mr. Hedaraly.

23 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MR. KEHOE:

Page 6428

1 Q. Did you understand? Do you want me to repeat the question,

2 captain?

3 A. [In English] Yes, if you're allowed to do it, do it again.

4 Q. Okay. Captain, in the normal course of events, if Colonel Leslie

5 had called General Forand at 2300 hours on the 3rd of August and told him

6 that he received a message that something was likely to happened the

7 following day, is that something that you would in the normal course of

8 events have known about?

9 A. Most probably because at that time my recollection is that we

10 were at the residence at 2200 at that time and I would have known because

11 I was at the residence, if it is something that they would have discussed

12 at the headquarter earlier, maybe I would not have been informed.

13 Q. Now, what time did you get the call from Sector South

14 headquarters that something was going to happen?

15 A. I said headquarter in my deposition. I'm not 100 percent sure

16 but it was from a headquarter so it could be Canadian, it could be

17 Zagreb, or it could be Sector South. I think in Sector South and it was

18 at 0330 hour on the 4th of August.

19 Q. And what time was it that you left to -- with General Forand to

20 go back to Sector South headquarters?

21 A. Around 0400.

22 Q. Now, prior to you leaving, did General Forand give any order, you

23 know, to warn other UN personnel that they should get back to the base?

24 A. No. No specific UN personnel other than the -- that there was

25 one, the -- the Czech colonel living on the first floor in the same

Page 6429

1 residence we were, so he left with us.

2 Q. Now, Captain, at this time, there were people that were staying

3 in the UN camp, weren't there? For safety reasons, I mean.

4 A. No, I don't think so.

5 Q. You don't recall that?

6 A. More than I don't recall. I don't think so. There was nobody

7 living in our camp for safety reason.

8 Q. In the days -- in the days leading up to Operation Storm,

9 Captain, was there any preparations going on within Sector South

10 headquarters to ensure that -- that there was extra food and extra water

11 and that people had bags backed and the APCs were ready to pick up UN

12 personnel if an attack took place? Were any of those preparations being

13 made?

14 A. I don't know about the preparation itself. Now I find out that I

15 speak in English, I hope it is fine. I don't think that there were any

16 specific preparation taking place, but, as I said earlier, at one point

17 we were called back in the camp because there would be an attack coming

18 the next day. So we know there was a feeling that there was something

19 that would happen. Where, not sure.

20 Q. And the information you got about the attack was an hour and a

21 half before the actual attack took place?

22 A. Yeah, 0330.

23 Q. Now, let me talk to you a little bit about your testimony and

24 about the actual shelling itself. And if we can go through this, you

25 note in your -- in your statement at -- if I may, paragraph 9 that you

Page 6430

1 not an artillery expert. And before we go into this shelling I'd just

2 like to ask you a few things.

3 You note in paragraph 9 that in your estimation most of the

4 shelling came from a 155-millimetre or a 203-millimetre. Do you see,

5 sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know, sir, what type of 155, what it was?

8 A. Heavy artillery.

9 Q. No. I'm just asking was it a Howitzer or a gun. Or do you know?

10 A. I don't know if it was a Howitzer or a gun.

11 Q. Well, whether or not it's a Howitzer or a gun has a lot to do

12 with the range. Has everything to do with the range of the weapon,

13 doesn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at the time that the shelling was taking place on the morning

16 of the 4th, was Knin within range of 155?

17 A. Yes, I would say yes.

18 Q. And what was the range?

19 A. I'm not sure. I would say approximately 25 kilometre.

20 Q. So your testimony -- well, let me be more specific. If the HV

21 only had a 155 Howitzer, what's the range on a 155 Howitzer?

22 A. I said I'm not sure, but I would estimate that the range is 25

23 kilometre.

24 Q. Would you surprise, sir, to learn that it's about 17 kilometres?

25 A. No, I would not be surprised and I don't know if it is true, but

Page 6431

1 I'm not surprised.

2 Q. Okay. If it was within 17, a 155 would not have been within

3 range of Knin from the positions of the HV on the morning of the 4th,

4 would it?

5 A. I don't know where the position of the HV were on the morning of

6 the 4th.

7 Q. How about the 203s. You maintain there was a 203 being used.

8 What's the range on a 203?

9 A. I'm not sure. I would estimate over 35 kilometre, approximately

10 35 kilometre.

11 Q. You're testimony is that the range on a 203 is 35 kilometres?

12 A. No. I said I'm not sure. So I would estimate it as 35 kilometre

13 because you are asking me to estimate it.

14 Q. So if there -- if in fact the -- would you be surprised to learn

15 that the range of a 203 is less than 20 kilometres?

16 A. No, I'm not surprised and I don't know if it's true.

17 Q. Okay. So when you tell us it's 35 kilometres, you really don't

18 know?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.

20 MR. HEDARALY: Now that they're both speaking English, the French

21 was a little slower, so just pause between question and answer.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're now speaking the same language.

23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And we would have take a little pause between

25 question and answer and answer and question.

Page 6432

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. KEHOE:

3 Q. Yes. So when you said 35 kilometres, Captain, for a 203 that's

4 pure speculation on your part, isn't it?

5 A. No, that is not pure speculation. What I wrote on that

6 paragraph with 155 and 203-millimetre artillery is more about the damage

7 and explosion that I saw on the ground than the actual range of the gun

8 itself. But, as I said earlier, it was coming from 15 to 35 kilometre,

9 my estimation.

10 Q. And well, we can just let the record stand the way it is. But

11 you don't really know what the range of a 203 is, do you?

12 A. But as I said, I said I would guess or approximate it at 35

13 kilometre.

14 Q. Now let's just talk a little bit about your observations at the

15 time. And if we can go to your notes, if I may, and I'm dealing with

16 P591.

17 Now, when the shelling actually started at 5.01, you were

18 actually walking around the camp, weren't you?

19 A. Are you referring to a specific paragraph or --

20 Q. Sure.

21 A. -- I don't know the --

22 Q. I may, sir, if you can go to paragraph 5 in your statement.

23 Paragraph 5: "It was during this tour of the camp that the first

24 shells fell on Knin."

25 A. Yeah, correct.

Page 6433

1 Q. Okay. So your notations here that you have in P591 started at

2 5.02 were something that you wrote after the fact, right, after you had

3 finished walking around the camp, ran back at the headquarters and went

4 back upstairs, right?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And as a matter of fact, you have no notations whatsoever in here

7 between 5.02 and 5.38?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And the fact is, sir, that when you offered an opinion as to the

10 amount of shelling that was going on, these were your rough estimates

11 because even from your notes we just note this gap between 5.02 and 5.38,

12 and if I can continue on your notes stop at approximately 9.30. You can

13 take a look at your notes, 591, I believe you can see the third page,

14 that your actual notes stop. Do you see that?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. So what you have given us is your rough approximation -- let me

17 withdraw that a second.

18 How much time did you spend up in the window or on the balcony

19 looking at this?

20 A. I would estimate from 5.02 to noon and to come back later on the

21 afternoon, you know, I don't have really a recollection but I spend most

22 of the time there.

23 Q. But the -- you stopped talking notes at 9.30 and then you began

24 to do other things later on in the morning with General Forand, didn't

25 you?

Page 6434

1 A. No, it's not correct. I don't know why the register ended at

2 0923.

3 May I say that the reason why me taking those notes on that

4 morning has nothing to do with coming here and giving an official

5 testimony of the number of shell that landed in Knin on the 4th and the

6 5th of August. It is some notes that I took, and it does not reflect the

7 exact amount of shell that were fired on Knin on the 4th and the 5th, but

8 it is the note that I took on that morning as I was seeing them.

9 Q. And I appreciate that, Captain, and I just am trying to bore down

10 a little bit on some of your approximations given the fact that you had

11 other duties certainly starting about midday and that you stopped taking

12 records of approximately 9.30, and we know from your notes that at

13 approximately noon time you went down to a meeting with General Forand to

14 the ARSK, didn't you?

15 A. Yes. My notes are showing that at 12.10 to 1300 there was a

16 meeting with General Forand and have I a recollection of that. But why

17 there is no indication of the number of shell that landed, because there

18 were, 0950 to 1210, I don't know why there is no entry in this little

19 book.

20 Q. But suffice it to say, Captain, that your testimony on the

21 approximate amount of shells reflects what you saw but also what you

22 heard. Isn't that right?

23 A. Please say the question again.

24 Q. When you offered an assessment concerning the amount of shells

25 that you say fell on Knin, that reflects an estimate of what you saw but

Page 6435

1 also what you heard. Isn't that right?

2 A. Yeah, most -- most of what I saw, but also from what I heard,

3 yeah.

4 Q. Now, you also note here that at 8.03, there was outgoing shell

5 fire -- outgoing fire 300 metres out from the camp.

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I can read 0803, outgoing 300 metre out from camp and three

8 question mark, yeah.

9 Q. And that, sir, was outgoing fire by the ARSK, wasn't it?

10 A. I cannot say. I don't know. That's why there are question mark

11 there. It was strange that there was outgoing fire 30 metre -- 300

12 metres out from the camp.

13 Q. Well, Captain, it was outgoing fire from terrain that was

14 controlled at that time by the ARSK, wasn't it?

15 A. I cannot even see where was that ground from my window. So I

16 cannot say that it was ground that was controlled by the ARSK.

17 Q. Well, I mean as you sit here, Captain, do you think it was ground

18 that was covered by the ARSK or do you think the HV was already in Knin

19 300 metres from the UN Sector South camp?

20 A. I don't know.

21 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I don't know if you want to take a break

22 now or you want me to keep going. It's --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It looks as if this is a right time to have a

24 break.

25 Mr. Kehoe, could you give us any impression and could other

Page 6436

1 Defence counsel give us any impression on how much time would you still

2 need?

3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, probably just finish in the next

4 session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I hear from other counsel.

6 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. I have about 30 minutes of the witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.

8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Same for me, Your Honour. Thank you. Perhaps

9 less.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That means that there is a fair expectation, but I'm

11 also looking to you, Mr. Hedaraly, for re-examination.

12 MR. HEDARALY: Not at the moment, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that means that there is a fair expectation

14 that we could conclude the testimony of this witness today.

15 We'll have a break and resume at a quarter past 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.26 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If it is of any consolation to the parties, our late

19 start is due to being very busy not on other matters but busy on this

20 case during the break.

21 Mr. Misetic.

22 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, just during the break I was able to

23 correct or find the error in that exhibit that I tendered at the

24 beginning of today's session. In column 7 there was a transcription

25 error and a decision by the state prosecutor's office. The word

Page 6438

1 Janic statements pursuant to Rule 92 ter in order to file any request for

2 certification against both of the Chamber's decisions concerning this

3 witness.

4 That's now on the record.

5 The Chamber could imagine that you become nervous, Mr. Misetic,

6 if you would not have not known about this decision.

7 Then, Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to --

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- continue. Then please do so.

10 MR. KEHOE: Thank you.

11 Q. Captain, in paragraph 23 of your statement you noted that the

12 estimates of the amount of shells coming into Knin by Colonel Leslie was

13 high.

14 Do you see that sir?

15 A. Seems a little bit high, yeah.

16 Q. Okay. Now, Colonel, did most of the people in the headquarters,

17 UN Sector South headquarters defer to Leslie, given his rank and his

18 professed artillery expertise?

19 A. No, nobody. It was just a personal comment of myself.

20 Q. That was your personal view.

21 A. Yes, about the number and -- could you rephrase the question?

22 Q. I'm talking about Leslie's high estimates. Did people in

23 Sector South defer to Leslie because of his rank and because of his

24 professed expertise in artillery?

25 A. I do, too.

Page 6439

1 Q. You do?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Now in paragraph 20 of your statement you note that you were --

4 the last sentence you say: "I remember because I was surprised that

5 shells would be fired at night."

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes I do.

8 Q. On the evening of the 4th were you aware of the military

9 situation in the Knin area?

10 A. Not exactly sure of the military situation in the Knin area, but

11 we did drive downtown that night.

12 Q. Well, on the night of the 4th, let me read you something that

13 Colonel Leslie said, and this is from a video D123. He says: "Taking

14 Knin, no. We have no reports of Croatians being in direct fire range of

15 Knin and there are still lots of Serbs in Knin and in the surrounding

16 hills."

17 D106, General Mrksic on behalf of the ARSK: "We are maintaining

18 contact, our forces withdrew to positions for the direct defence of Knin.

19 The other range of units are successfully holding their positions."

20 Are you aware of continued fighting going on in Knin on the

21 evening of the 4th, going into the morning of the 5th?

22 A. No. I think that the only thing that was going on in Knin that

23 night, there were some small arm fire on a there were some -- a few, I

24 estimated to 30, artillery shell landing in Knin, and there was not a big

25 bad willing going on there.

Page 6440

1 Q. Were you aware of any troop movements through Knin?

2 A. No, I don't think there were any.

3 Q. Well, do you know that, sir, or is that your speculation?

4 A. That's the best of my recollection that there was no -- there was

5 no fighting or heavy fighting or movement in Knin. I don't think so.

6 Q. Okay. Now, let me turn your attention to the actual shelling

7 situation. And if I could bring up first P596. Prosecution 596.

8 Is that -- is that P596, Mr. Usher -- Mr. Registrar?

9 Now, sir, that is the photograph that was initially put into

10 evidence, something that was taken on the fall, late November of last

11 year. Let me show you a photograph -- two photographs and I want to show

12 you it via Sanction than would be 1D38-0089, and I would like you to

13 focus on the little shed as the reference point.

14 The reference point on the left is the photograph that just came

15 into evidence, P596. And the photograph on the right is from a video

16 that was filmed on the morning of the 4th of August, 1995, by a UN

17 employee inside headquarters.

18 Now, Captain, is that what the area looked like or how you

19 observed it back on the morning of the 4th of August, 1995? And I'm

20 talking about the fog in the distance as well as the tree. That's over

21 to the right-hand side of the photograph. Is that how it looked?

22 A. Yeah, there is a tree there that has been cut, right? If it's

23 the same little house, I would say that's the view that I had in the

24 morning on the 5th, yes.

25 Q. So as you look over to the right-hand side, your view is

Page 6441

1 obstructed by the tree, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And likewise, because of the fog and smoke in the distance, your

4 view is also -- was also obstructed on the 4th, wasn't it?

5 A. But did you say was it on the 4th or the 5th?

6 Q. This is the 4th.

7 A. The 4th, okay. Yes, there were some fog, yes.

8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, we'd like to move this item into

9 evidence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.

11 MR. HEDARALY: No objections.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D569.

14 JUDGE ORIE: D569 is admitted into evidence.

15 Mr. Kehoe, there seems to be no issue as far as admissibility is

16 concerned. The witness has answered questions about it. Nevertheless,

17 these two pictures taken together are raising quite some puzzles for me.

18 Angle of view, trees growing smaller over the years and of course you

19 could -- apparently other structures, for example, if you would like at

20 the right-hand side of the oval there seems to be something of a small

21 structure as well which doesn't appear on the later one. It -- just for

22 you to note.

23 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge. If I can just put this in a

24 reference point. The left-hand photograph of course is P596, the

25 photograph that the OTP put in. The right hand is a still that we took

Page 6442

1 from a video that was provided by the OTP. What we have attempted to do

2 is, using that reference point, and we can give more frames to the Trial

3 Chamber both left and right to maybe focus this little building in a

4 little better. But this was something that has been purported to us in

5 sending to us by the OTP as having been taken on the 4th of 1995.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But of course then questions arise such as was

7 it taken from the third floor, was it taken from the bottom, what could

8 you see over the tree, the trees which at least look far higher on the

9 right picture than they look on the left one. So, therefore, I -- I

10 fully accept that it is important to look at contemporaneous photographs

11 or movies as well and not only to the situation as it appeared to be at a

12 later stage but the comparison is -- seems to me to be rather complex.

13 MR. KEHOE: It is, Judge, and what we've tried to do is obviously

14 our photograph or the juxtaposition of a photograph that was taken in

15 late November of 1997 well into the fall, as my colleague has so properly

16 pointed out, as opposed to something -- a timely photograph that took

17 place the same day in the middle of the summer -- I'm sorry, it's 2007,

18 not 1997, but the exact date I think gives the Trial Chamber as the

19 witness pointed out an accurate view of, number one, the fact there was a

20 tree obstructing his view on the right-hand side, and number two, quite

21 importantly, what the horizon was like between fog and smoke.

22 And, Your Honour, we will gladly take this OTP video and provide

23 additional frames on both sides and maybe it could become yet clearer.

24 We just believe that the juxtaposition of these two photographs at this

25 point would be instructive not only for the Chamber but for the witness.

Page 6443

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I did share with you what puzzles my mind, I

2 think it's fair, and I don't think that by just the two or three

3 questions we have resolved what puzzles my mind, and just for you to know

4 that.

5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MR. KEHOE:

8 Q. Let me talk to you about several angles, Captain, on that day and

9 I would like to turn, first, 1D38-0084.

10 Now, Captain, this is the photograph of P597, and the areas the

11 two hills that you had previously talked about in your supplemental

12 statement are A and B. Do you recall that, sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And this is what you talked about when you observed shell

15 fire on the hill. Isn't that right?

16 A. In my testimony, I mentioned behind a small hill and it's one of

17 those two.

18 Q. Okay. And, of course, when this -- when you were there at the

19 time, it was August and this was significantly grown up with trees and

20 leaves, et cetera, right?

21 A. I cannot say.

22 Q. You don't recall?

23 A. I don't recall.

24 Q. Let's go to the next slide.

25 This is a spatial view of the area from your location in UN

Page 6444

1 Sector South with no elevation to it. If we can go to the next -- and we

2 designate the two hills again, A and B.

3 If we can go to the next slide.

4 Now, you notice again we have A and B and your angle. And are

5 you familiar, Captain, of -- I mean, do you know where these rounds

6 landed when you saw them going in and about these hills?

7 A. Just tell me which of my statement you are talking about.

8 Q. Well, you gave us a supplemental sheet from the Office of the

9 Prosecutor concerning these two locations designating them as A and B and

10 you just gave us an explanation during the course of your testimony about

11 one of the small hills being hit. Do you recall that?

12 A. It was behind the small hill.

13 Q. Okay. So it was behind the small hill?

14 A. Yeah. 0855, two round under fire heavy behind small hill.

15 That's what I compare the small hill and I refer to it --

16 Q. Do you know what is being targeted?

17 A. No. It just -- it just hit behind the small hill.

18 Q. So if we go through either one of these targets, and you can pick

19 either hill, the 1 being the Tvik factory, the 2 being the

20 Elektroprivreda power distribution plant, 3 the Kinjacka factory, 4 the

21 diesel depot, perhaps the railway maintenance yard, 5 the RSK state

22 security. You have no idea what the HV was firing at, do you?

23 A. No. The only thing I can report is what I have seen and write in

24 my notebook at that time. It was behind the small hill and I don't know

25 what was hit.

Page 6445

1 Q. Captain, are you familiar with these various --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.

3 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You said, well, you gave us a supplemental sheet

5 from the Office of the Prosecutor concerning these two locations. Has

6 the Chamber received any such thing? I mean, in order to follow the

7 testimony, of course, we should be able to understand.

8 MR. KEHOE: I can just read it to you, Your Honour. I mean, it

9 says that he also identified on P543, one of these exhibits, that the

10 small hill he referred to in his contemporaneous notes of the shelling

11 was one of the two hills in the picture. Hard copies of these pictures

12 have also been placed in the Defence locker.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Because that is not evidence.

14 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: But I do understand that you indicated that one of

16 these two hills, I think you said in earlier testimony, but the Chamber

17 was unaware of the supplemental sheet, which it now appears to cover

18 exactly the same as what you now testified in Court.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hedaraly.

22 MR. HEDARALY: As a matter of course we don't sent those to the

23 Trial Chamber --

24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not --

25 MR. HEDARALY: -- if you want us to do that in the future or --

Page 6446

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not complaining about it, but if someone

2 makes reference to a certain document the Chamber is not aware of, then

3 it's not more than logical, I would say, that the Chamber inquires into

4 what the document is about and that's what I did and it turns out to be

5 that it's giving exactly the same information as the witness gave during

6 his testimony.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

9 Q. Let us go to the next slide.

10 Now, this is the -- if we just orient you, Captain, this would be

11 the -- basically the angle you were talking about as you're looking over

12 hill B, would it not? And --

13 A. What you're say is that my observation point from the window --

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. -- this yellow --

16 Q. That's your observation point.

17 A. Yeah, let's say, well, yeah.

18 Q. Can we go to the next slide?

19 So and with regard to these targets, sir, if these -- and I'm

20 just saying if these individual items were targets, you would have seen a

21 series of artillery fire throughout this area, wouldn't you? I'm not

22 telling you to say that there are targets or not. I'm saying that if the

23 shelling was taking place at all these areas we put in the map, you would

24 have seen an array of fire going from behind hill B all the way over to

25 the left-hand side of this photograph, wouldn't you?

Page 6447

1 A. Can you --

2 Q. Just for a frame of reference, sir, each of these targets --

3 A. A and B, that's what you're talking about, A and B?

4 Q. And the targets that we have, 1 through 5, are the geometry as

5 put forth on the angle 1 through 5 so you see that juxtaposed behind

6 those hills.

7 A. Yeah, I can -- okay, go ahead.

8 Q. So if you saw an array of shell fire from this area, as you say

9 in your statement that the shells fell all over town, assuming these were

10 targets, you would have seen shelling all the way over from your mound

11 point B to the left-hand side of this photo, wouldn't you?

12 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. But maybe I can state

13 what I saw from the window.

14 I saw that hill indicated as B, I saw that hill as indicated as

15 A, and I saw some artillery shell falling behind those hill, and I saw

16 specifically at 0855, as I note in my book, two round behind small hill.

17 I don't know which one of those two it is.

18 I saw that, and I saw a lot more to the left of hill A.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. Which was the town of Knin. So that's what I saw.

21 Q. We will get to that, sir.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me, I'm sorry, I --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

24 MR. TIEGER: I know the Court has some concerns about more than

25 one lawyer rising but I raise what I hope is a general matter in

Page 6448

1 connection -- that I have raised before in connection with demonstrative

2 evidence like this. To the extent it is helpful, of course the

3 Prosecution welcomes such photographs and aids, but in this particular

4 case, I'm try to go sort it out as well, we're seeing it for the first

5 time today, and the yellow dotted line appears to be significant but it

6 appears to me that could be drawn at any number of angles from that

7 particular balcony going out in any number of direction and depict

8 something different. I thought I also understood, by the way, that the

9 witness was talking about the other balcony in connection with his

10 observations, but if the -- if the relative precision versus the relative

11 generality of the assistance that can be offered by the document is made

12 clear, I think we'll be better -- the Court will be better assisted and

13 so will the parties.

14 But if it's a matter of fine precision, then it's also a matter

15 of knowing precisely where it was taken from, precisely what the angle of

16 view was and a lot more variables need to be fleshed out and the

17 Prosecution needs to be aware of it in order to understand the utility or

18 limitations of the document.

19 So this is a general matter, so I'm sorry to intervene, but it's

20 something that's concerned me --

21 MR. KEHOE: May I respond to that? I mean this is their

22 photograph. This is the photograph that they dropped in our locker last

23 night. The line in the middle is the location of the photographer, based

24 on the evidence given to us by the Prosecutor, we then did these

25 calculations.

Page 6449

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, which balcony is the -- I think

2 as a matter of fact that I ask some additional questions especially out

3 of concern whether we have the right picture in front of us.

4 Mr. Tieger, if this Chamber really feels that it is not assisted

5 by this kind of reconstructions, I think you know the Chamber well enough

6 to know that the Chamber will not hide this. That's one.

7 Second, of course, we should not forget that the further the

8 distance, the less the impact of five or ten metres difference from a

9 point of view. I mean if you're standing 100 metres before a hill, a

10 small hill, then it makes quite a difference -- it can at least make

11 quite a difference whether you move to the left or to the right a couple

12 of metres. The further the distance, the less impact it has. So,

13 therefore, I do appreciate that your concerns that the Chamber would not

14 be assisted. And as you said also the parties are not assisted, then I

15 take it the OTP is not assisted by it. Of course it seems that Mr. Kehoe

16 thinks that it assists him in getting a better view on what happened.

17 MR. KEHOE: Well, the --

18 JUDGE ORIE: While that's understood, Mr. Kehoe, that's --

19 MR. KEHOE: I just accept what the Prosecution gives us and work

20 with the elements that they gave us. They provided us --

21 JUDGE ORIE: No, let's -- Mr. Tieger has expressed his concern

22 whether this would assist or at least assist the Chamber.

23 Let's proceed.

24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, at this time I'll

25 offer into evidence 1D38-0084, this array of photographs.

Page 6450

1 MR. HEDARALY: I think as an additional matter, Your Honour --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. HEDARALY: -- THE foundation, because the witness did not

4 recognise any of these alleged targets and then what these line of sight,

5 so once again I think it may be something -- I don't know who prepared

6 it.

7 MR. KEHOE: Targets are already in evidence in --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's keep -- let's keep matters simple.

9 Mr. Gilbert, what is put to you by Mr. Kehoe is the following:

10 That if the only thing you saw is that the shells were falling behind

11 these hills, then Mr. Kehoe, on the basis of the evidence presented to

12 this Chamber, takes the position that there's quite a range in the --

13 from left to right behind these hills, where in the view of the Defence

14 and on the basis of what the Defence has presented as evidence to this

15 Chamber, that there are a lot of targets that could be hit or targeted

16 behind these hills.

17 The question is, I think, which Mr. Kehoe did put to you, were

18 you aware of those possible targets and do you have any additional

19 information which would lead you to reasonably assume that the shells

20 falling behind these hills were not falling upon the targets Mr. Kehoe

21 earlier showed to you. That's the question.

22 THE WITNESS: Okay. I was not aware of any target. There were

23 shell falling behind those hill. There were shell falling out to the

24 left of those hill. There were shell during that one -- 4th and 5th of

25 August until noon. There were shell falling all over the place. I had

Page 6451

1 and I still never -- I don't think that it was intended for a specific

2 target. I think it was harassing fire.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you tell us what's the basis for

4 this thought, apart from because what Mr. Kehoe puts to you, is that in

5 the full width of what you describe, that is the two hills, that behind

6 the hills, for the Defence, there are potential targets. So if that full

7 range, Mr. Kehoe wonders how you could determine that this is harassing

8 fire rather than targeting any of these military objectives.

9 THE WITNESS: In the general context there was firing all over

10 Knin. You know, were specifically talking to 0855, when in my notes I

11 put behind the small hill. So somebody is asking me could you identify

12 the small hill. I'm saying it's one of those two. Was it a military --

13 was there a military target behind it, maybe yes; maybe not. I don't

14 know. But at the time and still now, I'm not thinking that it was

15 hitting a military target. Because from the morning of the 4th until

16 noon on the 5th, there was artillery fire, under my estimated amount of

17 shell, all over Knin. So I don't -- I still don't think that it was

18 intended to a specific military target.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we have explored sufficiently what

20 objective data there are and what the -- apparently what the thoughts of

21 the witness are.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

23 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we offer 1D38-0084 into

24 evidence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Whether welcome or not, is it admissible or not,

Page 6452

1 Mr. Hedaraly?

2 MR. HEDARALY: We have no objection to the admissibility, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Hedaraly.

5 Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D570.

7 JUDGE ORIE: D570 is admitted into evidence and that is the whole

8 series.

9 MR. KEHOE: Just that whole series.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. KEHOE: There is more as the angle moves so we will go to

12 1D38-0083 because the witness said that he observed shelling to the left

13 of this photograph.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that is what comes next.

15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The series as we have seen them until now.

17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

19 MR. KEHOE:

20 Q. Now, you noted for us that you stated that there was artillery

21 fire to the left of the photograph that we previously referenced and I

22 asked you, looking at the -- shifting over on to the other side of what

23 you designated as mound A, you see one, the Senjak barracks; two, the

24 Agroprevreda depot; and three, the Tvik factory. Are you aware of those

25 locations?

Page 6453

1 A. No. That is the first time I read those names there.

2 Q. But there was artillery fire straight away left of the mound that

3 you had designated as A, wasn't there?

4 A. There was artillery fire all over town.

5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we'll offer 1D38-0083 into

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.

8 MR. HEDARALY: Once again, Your Honour, he has not identified

9 those specific issues but I guess if this is not an admissibility issue,

10 then we won't object.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D571.

13 JUDGE ORIE: D571 is admitted into evidence.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. KEHOE: Let me bring up -- thank you, Mr. President. Let me

16 bring up 1D38-0001 and this is it --

17 JUDGE ORIE: While that is done, Mr. Kehoe, I find in the

18 previously just admitted, that just admitted I see a number 76 which I

19 don't know what it is about.

20 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry. Can we flip back to that, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have access to it -- to another copy,

22 then I'm not going to -- 76, it says.

23 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, I don't see the 76 on that photograph.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Just close to the --

25 MR. KEHOE: Oh, that is a grid reference, Judge. When you take

Page 6454

1 these Google Earth maps, the grid references on the Google Earth --

2 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. It's a grid reference. Just for me to

3 know.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. KEHOE: Can I go to two up. Go in reverse order, page 3,

6 please.

7 Q. Now, this is yet a further angle to the left, Captain, from the

8 UN Sector South headquarters looking downtown. Do you recognise this

9 sir?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And let me go to the next slide, page 2.

12 Now, sir, if I can just blow that up a bit, I have listed here 17

13 locations that have been previously admitted into evidence. And for

14 reference the all these items were set forth in D131.

15 Are you familiar with all of these locations, sir, and just take

16 a look at the chart to the left.

17 A. ARSK barracks must be number 10. I recognise that. And I don't

18 see the white parliament building. I don't know if it is named somewhere

19 in there but I cannot figure out on that one.

20 Q. It is number 3, sir, at the bottom.

21 A. Number 3, parliament, okay. And the hospital, I don't know if

22 you're calling it an old hospital.

23 Q. No, sir.

24 A. Is there just one?

25 Q. You're talking about the hospital that was in use?

Page 6455

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Way over to the right, the white building way over to the right.

3 A. Is it circled there.

4 Q. No, it is not.

5 A. That is it not a place that I would recognise. Okay. All the

6 other one, I do not recognise, I do not recognise.

7 Q. Well, can we go to the first slide.

8 Sir, we've taken these 17 items in these locations with the two

9 mounds, the hill to the left and the hill to the right, as reference

10 points. Sir, if all of these locations were shelled at some point during

11 the day on the 4th or the 5th, it would have looked to you like the

12 shelling, as you say in paragraph 9 of your statement, the shells fell

13 all over town.

14 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I guess we would need I

15 mean the actual calculations or the basis. There is no way for to us

16 test the accuracy of sort of if that accurately represents those

17 locations that were described in the previous slide and that is actually

18 the -- and questions being put to the witness. It just --

19 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, I think that -- I mean the logic

21 behind this is clear. The data on the map are clear as well. The

22 earlier evidence is clear also. Therefore, I would allow Mr. Kehoe to

23 continue.

24 At the same time, Mr. Kehoe, the issue of potential targeting

25 what you identified as military targets is not a new issue with which you

Page 6456

1 could surprise the Prosecution. Therefore, with this technical

2 elaboration of those issues, I think it would be good if you would give

3 notice to the Prosecution in advance on how you put this into material

4 which will be put to a witness, because, otherwise, it might be almost

5 impossible to verify the accuracy of it, and at the same time, of course,

6 that might cause that we would have to re-call a witness. I mean, if it

7 is something new, then of course I can imagine that you would say I'd

8 rather not disclose this already to the Prosecution, but if it comes to

9 these technical details, then where the issue is clearly there, I mean,

10 if you read the statement of the witness, it of course came immediately

11 to my mind, but whatever the merits of it are, therefore under those

12 circumstances I think it might a good idea to share some of the technical

13 elaboration that the Prosecution --

14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I will gladly take them through it.

15 Frankly, it's simple geometry, but I think and I appreciate that it -- it

16 may look a tad bit more complex than it is, but that is what it is. It's

17 just simple geometry taking the targets that they --

18 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to -- you don't have to explain to

19 me, Mr. Kehoe, that it is simple geometry apart from, of course, at this

20 moment in these pictures that the depth doesn't appear anymore which of

21 course is clear from the picture itself, so I'm not surprised by that.

22 But even in geometry, sometimes mistakes are made and what

23 Mr. Hedaraly is asking is give us an opportunity to verify the accuracy

24 of your work.

25 MR. KEHOE: You know, and absolutely, Judge, and if I'm mistaken

Page 6457

1 on the geometry I will stand corrected. We have tried to check this

2 geometry over and over but please I would like the Prosecution --

3 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, there's no blame at this point.

4 THE COURT REPORTER: One at a time, please, one at a time.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise.

6 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The issue simply is whether if we are coming to this

8 technical presentation of the geometry, whether for the purpose of giving

9 an opportunity to the Prosecution to verify whether they agree with you

10 that it was accurately done, whether there would be a possibility to give

11 them in advance access to this very technical material.

12 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Your Honour. If I do these geometric

13 calculations again, I will gladly do that. I trust there won't be many

14 more of these. Nevertheless I'm certainly gladly to share the

15 calculations and how it was done with my friends across the bar and see

16 how -- and let them check how we did it and our conclusions.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think that was what Mr. Hedaraly was asking for.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I don't know how you want to do this. I

20 was offered 1D38-0001 into evidence at this time.

21 MR. HEDARALY: No objections Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D572.

24 JUDGE ORIE: D572 is admitted into evidence.

25 MR. KEHOE:

Page 6458

1 Q. Captain, would it be accurate to say that as you were standing on

2 the balcony, you had no idea of what potential targets there were other

3 than the RSK barracks that you notified -- that you talked about before?

4 Is that accurate?

5 A. What is accurate is I was not watching from the balcony. I was

6 watching from my office window, which is neither of those angle of view.

7 And what is accurate is that the shelling was all over Knin.

8 Q. And my follow-up question to that is you as you sit here have no

9 idea what the target was of that shelling, do you, or the targets were of

10 that shell, do you? Yes or no?

11 A. No.

12 Q. In fact, sir, when -- you in fact in your statement or in your

13 note when you say that the target of the bombardment was the civilians

14 and this is in your article on page 593, page 3, you also say on 591,

15 your notes at 543 --

16 A. I do not follow you now. The article?

17 Q. Just go to 543 -- go to 591.

18 A. My article?

19 Q. First your article.

20 A. What page.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I insist on short breaks.

22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I made similar mistakes recently, and that made me

24 even more aware how important it is to give an opportunity to the

25 transcriber and the interpreters to reflect what is said accurately on

Page 6459

1 the record.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. In page 3 of your article, you note that the targets of the

5 bombardment were the civilians.

6 A. I recall that, but I would like to read it.

7 Q. The last paragraph.

8 A. Page 3, last paragraph in English.

9 MR. HEDARALY: It is page 4 of the French, if that assists the

10 witness.

11 THE WITNESS: I'm reading in English. I will read it in French

12 because it was writed in French.

13 Where is it? It's page 3.

14 MR. KEHOE: Page 3 in the English, sir, and maybe counsel can

15 help with the French.

16 MR. HEDARALY: Page four of the French. It is the fifth line,

17 fifth or sixth line, "they are the target of" ...

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The exodus of majority of

19 civilians had started. They are the target of this shelling."

20 MR. KEHOE:

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you said that, sir, because

22 you were unaware of any other potential targets. Isn't that right?

23 A. No, that's not correct. I said that because I thought that at

24 the moment and I wrote it in an article to public which is -- you know

25 the intent of the article was for public reading, not to come in court,

Page 6460

1 and that's why the reason why I put it there.

2 Q. Take a look at 591, your notes. P591. And the time entry of

3 5.43.

4 A. It is on the second day.

5 Q. First day, 5.43.

6 A. But I started timing at 5.43. Hmm.

7 Q. Can you read the entry for 5.43?

8 A. "Notice no fire by location of ARSK seems a bit heavily."

9 Q. So you wrote that article knowing, Captain, that you had written

10 in your notes that the ARSK headquarters had been hit heavily at 0543 on

11 the morning of the 4th, right?

12 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think that

13 mischaracterises. There is no mention of headquarters in the notes.

14 MR. KEHOE: That's fine.

15 Q. You hit the ARSK on the morning of the 4th?

16 A. What I meant by that was the barracks that we talked earlier. At

17 0543 the shell were landing close to that barracks.

18 Q. So I reiterate, you wrote that in your article knowing full well

19 that you had documented that an ARSK facility had been hit on 0543 on the

20 4th of August, right?

21 A. No right, no.

22 Q. We'll move on.

23 MR. KEHOE: If I can just have one second here, Your Honour.

24 Excuse me.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 6461

1 MR. KEHOE:

2 Q. Now, let us turn your attention to the morning of the 4th and

3 your activities, and you did in fact go to the ARSK headquarters with

4 General Forand at approximately midday on the 4th, did you not?

5 A. I'm not sure if it was the ARSK headquarter. But we went to a

6 place where there was an ARSK representative, yes.

7 Q. And prior to that time, had there been communication with the RSK

8 authorities?

9 A. Not myself. It was the headquarter Sector South contact, I'm not

10 sure.

11 Q. Let me play you a video, D327, if I may.

12 This is two ARSK officials on the morning of the 4th, talking

13 about communications with the UN.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. KEHOE: Go back to the beginning, please.

16 [Videotape played]

17 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] At 4.14 I received a phone call

18 from liaison officer from headquarters who was our government liaison

19 officer for UNPROFOR that he had received information from an operational

20 organ within UNPROFOR from Sector South command that the Croats would say

21 be attacking us. Miroslav Sekolic: We were informed 18 times by various

22 officers, French, these informing us we will be attacked in the morning

23 at 5.00 a.m."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.

25 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

Page 6462

1 JUDGE ORIE: On channel 5 I did not receive French translation,

2 but I don't know where the problem lies, and for the completeness of the

3 record --

4 MR. KEHOE: Could we replay it, Judge? It's very brief.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please replay the --

6 [Videotape played]

7 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] at 4.15 I received a phone call

8 from a liaison officer from headquarters who was our government's liaison

9 officer of UNPROFOR that he had received information from an operational

10 organ within UNPROFOR from Sector South command that the Croats would be

11 attacking us.

12 Miroslav Sekolic: "We were informed 18 times by various

13 officers, French, these and others, informing us that we would be

14 attacked in the morning at 5.00 a.m."

15 MR. KEHOE:

16 Q. Captain, were you the French officer who called the RSK

17 headquarters to tell them that they were going to be attacked?

18 A. No, I was not, I'm sure not.

19 Q. And do you know who was?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. How much French officers worked at UN Sector South on the morning

22 of the 4th, French-speaking officers beside you, General Forand, and

23 Major Bellerose?

24 A. Major Dussault. But what I think that may refer to is another --

25 when I heard it I thought it was from French forces officer liaison

Page 6463

1 officer, or from Knin, but it was certainly not me, and a rough thing,

2 maybe four or five people speaking French from the UN headquarters

3 Sector South.

4 Q. Do you have any knowledge that this phone call going to the RSK

5 to tell them that the attack was coming?

6 A. Never.

7 Q. Now, you went with, your notes P591 reflects, and this is at the

8 third page, reflects a meeting at approximately midday. Do you see that,

9 sir.

10 A. 12.10 to 13, meeting with Karpalak and press conference in Knin,

11 yes, I see that.

12 Q. Before we go get to that, you mentioned some Canadian officers

13 that were French-speaking. Were there any officers from France at UN

14 Sector South in Knin?

15 A. Maybe a couple. I don't know.

16 Q. You don't recall?

17 A. No. I would have to look into our nominal roll.

18 Q. Now, in the morning of this meeting in midday, and I turn your

19 attention to P543. And as we're coming up with that exhibit, who went to

20 UN Sector South at midday with you?

21 A. We went to some kind of ARSK barracks where there were people

22 there. That's what you mean, it was --

23 Q. I apologise. Who went to the meeting with the RSK at midday on

24 the 4th of August?

25 A. Me, the driver, General Forand, for sure. Probably a UNHCR rep,

Page 6464

1 a UN civilian rep, and maybe another person.

2 Q. Did Mr. Roberts go?

3 A. Maybe, maybe.

4 Q. Did Colonel Ratsouk go?

5 A. I don't remember that name.

6 Q. Colonel Nikolai Ratsouk?

7 A. I don't know that person.

8 Q. Now, what was the purpose of the meeting that you went to?

9 A. It says there meeting with Karpalak and press conference in Knin.

10 I recall being in that room. That was a crowded room, I was inside with

11 the people when that took place. There was maybe six or seven people

12 from RSK and five, six, from the UN representative. That was a crowded

13 room. I don't know what was the meeting of that and I see there that it

14 says and press conference in Knin. I don't know that there was a press

15 conference. I don't know if it was a joint, I don't know. I don't

16 recall.

17 Q. I'm sorry. This is -- I was looking for P343, I apologise.

18 Now during this meeting, the UN provided the RSK with a radio,

19 didn't it?

20 A. I don't know what are you referring to. Just give me the name of

21 the paper, because with the number I cannot refer to.

22 Q. I'm going to bring up a exhibit here on the screen, P343.

23 A. That's what I see there.

24 Q. Okay. If we -- on the left --

25 A. [Inaudible].

Page 6465

1 Q. This is a sitrep of 4 August 1995 and if we can go into what is

2 been designated as page 5. It's a -- keep going, please.

3 If I may, it's page 5 at the top. Three more pages in, please.

4 One more. Well, we can just move ahead and ask the question.

5 Captain, did the UN -- here it is. If we go to that

6 paragraph towards the end of the meeting with the warring factions, it

7 talk about the meeting with Colonel Kosta Novakovic at approximately

8 11.30. Do you see that?

9 A. Just give me paragraph, H, I?

10 Q. Paragraph H.

11 A. H?

12 Q. Just take a look at paragraph H.

13 A. One, two, three, four, okay.

14 Q. It's what we had.

15 Can you see that, sir?

16 A. Yes, I'm reading it through the second paragraph now.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Okay. I have read paragraph H.

19 Q. Now, if you read that -- that last sentence in the third

20 paragraph down in H, it notes: "[Indiscernible] commander RSK stated he

21 speak on the radio and tell the people to allow the UN to help. It was

22 agreed that HQ Sector South would remain in contact with HQ ARSK."

23 Now to do that, did the UN -- do you see that, sir, I'm sorry.

24 A. I will read it again. "Commander RSK state that he speak on the

25 radio ... " Okay. Yeah.

Page 6466

1 Q. Now, to do that did the UN provide the ARSK with a UN radio.

2 A. No. I'm reading that now for the first time and what I

3 understand is that he would speak on his own radio channel and tell his

4 ARSK personnel to allow UN to help.

5 Q. And I am talking to them about that -- the and I will tell you

6 that you General Forand in P330, paragraph -- page 5, paragraph 4, said

7 that, "we provided them for the purposes of the coordinating humanitarian

8 assistance a radio."

9 Is that true?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Did the UN provide the RSK authorities for -- did they provide

12 them with an APC?

13 A. I don't -- I don't know, and I don't think so.

14 Q. Do you recall one way or the other, sir?

15 A. No, no, I don't recall anything. But I don't think we did that.

16 Q. Well, the evacuation in fact began to be planned at that meeting,

17 did it not?

18 A. No. I would say no.

19 Q. Let me read you P401, if we could bring that up.

20 This is a presentation by General Forand and if I could have --

21 if we just use the numbers the 0530638.

22 And if we can go to the last paragraph on that page, General

23 Forand says: "I understand now that the RSK supreme defence took the

24 decision at about noon on 4 August to abandon the Krajina."

25 Did you know that, sir?

Page 6467

1 A. I would not be as precise as General Forand did on his notes or

2 speak -- briefing there, but that -- yeah, around the 4th or the 5th.

3 But at some point, yeah, they did -- they took the decision to abandon,

4 yeah.

5 Q. Well, this says that the decision was made at noon on the 4th.

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I see that.

8 Q. Is a that -- accurate or based on your recollection?

9 A. What I just told you what was my recollection, it was somewhere

10 on the 4th or on the 5th.

11 Q. Well, you went to a meeting -- I'll try to slow down here. You

12 went to a meeting later on on the 4th and if we can go on and bring up

13 P592.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, for the understanding of this document,

15 the line "I understand now," is of course something that might be

16 relevant. So if you put to the witness what happened or at least what

17 was in this document I'd prefer to --

18 MR. KEHOE: General Forand said that he was at this meeting and

19 then it became clear to from a variety of other information that they had

20 planned the evacuation as of noon on the 4th of August.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 MR. KEHOE:

23 Q. Now, this is the minutes of your -- or these are your notes, are

24 they not, sir, of your evacuation -- I mean, excuse me, of the meeting

25 that you went to at approximately 1800 on the 4th, as we can see from the

Page 6468

1 first line?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. And in the first paragraph, there was an ARSK chief of residents

4 evacuation. Do you see that, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Do you know who that person was?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So based on your understanding at the time, there was an ARSK

9 officer or an official that was specifically in charge of the residents

10 of evacuation. Is that right?

11 A. I would prefer to say that we were provided with that information

12 at the meeting. I took note, and I wrote that as it was given to me.

13 But it -- it looks like there was one person there that hold that title.

14 Q. Now, at this meeting, sir, they had outlined -- and let me turn

15 your attention to D182.

16 D182. This is another memo of that meeting by Colonel Ratsouk.

17 The date here says 8th of July, but the parties have stipulated that this

18 is in fact an inaccurate date and it emanates from the meeting on the 4th

19 of August.

20 Now, in the centre of that paragraph it notes that the -- if you

21 can just read that at the second paragraph in?

22 A. I will read the whole thing.

23 Q. Please.

24 A. Can I please be told who is Colonel Ratsouk.

25 Q. Colonel Ratsouk is one of the individuals that I've asked you

Page 6469

1 whether or not he was at the meeting at noon time on the 4th.

2 A. I don't know him, but maybe it would help me to know who that

3 person is. Is that a UN Sector South representative or --

4 Q. He is, sir.

5 A. And can I know more about him.

6 Q. He was Russian Sector South representative.

7 A. And he was working with us at UN Sector South?

8 Q. He was.

9 A. I have no recollection of that. I should have got my list.

10 Okay.

11 Q. He was UNCRO from Zagreb.

12 A. Attached to us. Attached to us, probably.

13 Q. Or to UNCRO, sir.

14 A. Okay. So he was with us, so I'll take that as -- I'm not sure,

15 but I will take that.

16 Okay. I've read it.

17 Q. Now. Let me show you one last document in conjunction with

18 Mr. Ratsouk's comment and that would be D337, which is a cable from

19 Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan on the 4th of August. And we go to the -- after

20 you look at the front page can we go to the last paragraph on the next

21 page, paragraph 4. And blow up paragraph 4.

22 A. So it's Akashi in Zagreb talking to New York?

23 Q. Correct.

24 A. At what time?

25 Q. There's no stamp on. There's a stamp on it, sir, but there has

Page 6470

1 been some question what the exact time is, but it is the 4th.

2 A. It would be after 1900 at night. I don't know.

3 Okay. I read it.

4 Okay.

5 Q. Now, so, at the time this meeting was ended, were you -- did you

6 know that in fact the evacuation to Banja Luka had been planned and was

7 going to take place or was taking place?

8 A. The -- not by the UN, but the ARSK or the Serb authority in Knin,

9 they were trying most probably to evacuate their people.

10 Q. And your understanding was that the evacuation was going to be to

11 Banja Luka?

12 A. No, I don't know where the evacuation was to go, no.

13 Q. Well, did -- do you have any idea where Mr. Ratsouk -- Colonel

14 Ratsouk or Mr. Akashi got the information that it was supposed to go to

15 Banja Luka?

16 A. No, I don't know.

17 Q. Now there was also some -- some reservation about providing fuel

18 to the RSK in order for them to evacuate, wasn't there?

19 A. My understanding that there was an intention from the UN to

20 provide fuel not to the ARSK but to the civilian population in need.

21 Q. Well, the paragraph 4 says that that had to be spoken about,

22 there is a wide range of policy, political and military and logistical

23 implications that must be examined with UNHCR before we can contemplate

24 such a commitment and accordingly, Sector South has been advised by UNCRO

25 to make no commitment to the Knin authorities other than the matter will

Page 6471

1 be examined tomorrow.

2 But fuel was given, anyway. Isn't that right?

3 A. What I saw is in front of our UN compound that there is older

4 people that came with some tractor and some bicycle and motor bicycle and

5 they were requesting fuel and that was given to them.

6 Q. Let me shift subjects and cover a couple things that you

7 mentioned in your statement and that had to do with after you became the

8 refugee officer, as you say in paragraph 34 of your statement. And you

9 note in paragraph 34 that -- excuse me, paragraph 35 that "people were

10 too afraid to go back home. What I mean by afraid is afraid for their

11 physical safety, they were worried about what would happen to them if

12 they went back and no one could guarantee their safety. This is why most

13 of the people ultimately went back to Serbia."

14 Captain, let me ask you a question. When you were talking to

15 refugees were in there, how many people told you they still had either

16 husbands or sons that were still in the ARSK?

17 A. I had -- I never discussed that.

18 Q. Did you never ask that question?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. Now, turning to that issue, as you're in -- the refugee officer,

21 how many soldiers actually were allowed into the base by the UN?

22 A. I think, to my recollection, one.

23 Q. One.

24 A. Yeah. And when we find out, he was sent out. And that was not

25 an agreement. He came to the camp without proper identification or I

Page 6472

1 don't know what, but when it was found out that he was in the camp, he

2 was sent out.

3 Q. Now you were, as you described, the refugee officer, and let me

4 show you something -- read something to you from D514 from Major

5 Bellerose. He notes on the second page of this article, "because we

6 opened up the camp to displaced persons to provide security, there were

7 few Serb soldiers that came to try to get refuge within our camp. So we

8 said to them 'if you want to come in, you have to disarm, because if we

9 let you in with weapons, we're putting ourselves at risk.'"

10 Now, do you know anything about these soldiers that were allowed

11 in that Major Bellerose is referring?

12 A. I would like to have a look.

13 Q. Sure. If we can bring that up on the screen it is D514. It

14 comes from an article called One Soldier's Story, Major Claude Bellerose.

15 D154.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Of course we could look at it. But are you aware of

17 soldiers required to disarm and then let into the camp?

18 THE WITNESS: Sir, I became the refugee officer, the date is the

19 25th of August. So refugee has started from the 4th to the 25th. In

20 that period, you know, I was just like another staff officer at the UN

21 headquarters handling refugee.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But whatever time, are you aware of soldiers given

23 access to the camp but were required to disarm first?

24 THE WITNESS: No. But there was one during my term.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you explained that.

Page 6473

1 THE WITNESS: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether there is any need then to give

3 the details of Mr. Bellerose.

4 MR. KEHOE: That's fine, Judge, I was just bringing it up because

5 the witness wanted it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. KEHOE: I just have a few more questions on this, Judge, and

8 I will conclude.

9 Q. Captain, in addition to what captain -- Major Bellerose is

10 talking about, were you aware of soldiers being taken from the Knin

11 hospital and being brought into UN Sector South?

12 A. No, I'm not aware, and it would not be adequate.

13 Q. What do you mean by adequate?

14 A. It's not something that was in the policy to my knowledge to

15 bring soldier on to our camp.

16 Q. Well, sir, there were 38 people who were turned over to the

17 Croatian authorities because they were suspected of war crimes by the

18 Croatian government, 38 individuals that were turned over by UN

19 Sector South to Croatian authorities. And you were in charge -- you were

20 the refugee officer at the time. Who were these 38 people?

21 A. I don't want to question the Defence but at what date?

22 Q. They were turned over in September of 1995, after you had become

23 the refugee officer at the UN camp.

24 A. To my recollection, we have not returned any people to the Croat

25 authority while I was the refugee officer. I think I state somewhere

Page 6474

1 when I went on leave, and that might be that time.

2 Can we check that? If you give me the exact date --

3 MR. HEDARALY: It's paragraph 35.

4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. If you have the exact date of that, I would

5 be willing to check, because must have been after the 16. Before the

6 16th those people were not turned in, if they were turned in after.

7 MR. KEHOE:

8 Q. So you were aware that the Republic of Croatia wanted the

9 suspected war criminals, people suspected of war crimes that were in the

10 custody of UN Sector South, you were aware of that, weren't you?

11 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah they were looking for that.

12 Q. And?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just -- Mr. Hedaraly, were you referring to

14 paragraph 34 or 35?

15 MR. HEDARALY: 35 about when the witness was on leave which he

16 was looking for to assess to be able to answer the question.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I thought you were referring to the

18 refugees that were wanted to be interviewed as --

19 MR. HEDARALY: I was referring to the date that he asked for when

20 he was on leave. But you're right, that is also in the statement.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. KEHOE:

24 Q. You were aware of that, weren't you, that these negotiations for

25 the turning over of people suspected of war crimes was ongoing?

Page 6475

1 A. What I was aware of is that the Croat wanted to have people in

2 the camp that were suspected of war crime from their perspective, not

3 from an UN perspective, you know --

4 Q. And these negotiations with the Republic of Croatia were going on

5 for six weeks after Operation Storm, weren't they?

6 A. No. I would say one week after I was the refugee officer,

7 approximately, so it gives me a specific date, some -- sometime around

8 the 1st of September --

9 Q. 25 of August, paragraph 35.

10 A. Yeah. But I mean one week after I became the refugee officer

11 that those requests came in, you know, that they were looking for those

12 name and all that. Just to situate it, it would be around the 1st of

13 August that my recollection is they were looking for this list of war

14 crime -- war crime -- just as we said earlier, you know, the -- they

15 wanted a certain number of people because they allegedly, from their

16 perspective, says that they wanted for a crime against what, and that was

17 about the 1st of September, if I recall that's what we are looking for,

18 the period, so I would say 1st September.

19 Q. Well, sir, you went on -- and then you went on leave, according

20 to paragraph 35, from the 16th of September to the 7th of October. Did

21 you come back to UN Sector South at that point?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you come back as the refugee officer?

24 A. No. There was no more refugee when I came back.

25 Q. When you came back did you ask how the request by the Republic of

Page 6481

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I don't have any further questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

4 Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready?

5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gilbert, Mr. Kuzmanovic will now cross-examine

7 you. He is counsel for Mr. Markac.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic

11 Q. Your statement, P589, if that could be put up on the screen,

12 please. The first paragraph of your statement and if you have that in

13 front of you in the binder, feel free to refer to it.

14 Sir, do you have the statement in the binder in front of you? It

15 might be easier for you to refer to it in your binder than looking at it

16 on the screen.

17 A. But I don't know what is P584.

18 Q. It's your witness statement that you gave to the Office of the

19 Prosecutor in January of 2008.

20 A. Okay. I have it in front of me.

21 Q. Okay. The first paragraph says you became a captain in 1987. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Of course it is correct.

24 Q. Okay. I was just unsure, because if you look at P593, and that

25 will probably have to be pulled up on the screen for you, on the first

Page 6482

1 page. The beginning part of it says: "After spending two years as a

2 regimental Sergeant Major I have since 8 July 1995 been performing the

3 duties of military assistant to the commander of Sector South."

4 Can you explain that, please?

5 A. What is your question?

6 Q. Can you explain in your article here by Captain Alain Gilbert,

7 P593, you describe yourself as a regimental Sergeant Major. Can you

8 explain the difference between your rank and what a regimental Sergeant

9 Major is?

10 A. This there is a mistake in the translation there.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. What I -- if it has been translated okay, it would have said a

13 regimental adjutant. That is what it says in French.

14 Q. Okay. So --

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. So the English translation is incorrect. You have been a captain

17 since 1987?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Okay. Why don't we stick with P593 for a moment.

20 Did you have a chance to compare this translation to your

21 original, by the way?

22 A. Yes. Last night I read it.

23 Q. Okay. Other than that mistake, are there any other mistakes that

24 you happened to catch?

25 A. No.

Page 6483

1 Q. Okay. The second paragraph talks about how the headquarters is

2 made up and that I'm assuming is the headquarters of Sector South.

3 Correct?

4 A. Yes, this is correct.

5 Q. The -- it discusses the make-up of general officers from the

6 various nations, and the second sentence says, and I will read it to you

7 and then I'll have a question for you: "Some of them are lazy and rarely

8 see the need to work to the end of the week. Others have the habit of

9 turning towards Mecca at certain times of the day." And then you end it:

10 "Be that as it may, I assure you once more of my pride in belonging to

11 the category of Canadian."

12 Now, my question to you is, did you feel that you and your

13 Canadian comrades had some better level of professionalism and experience

14 than the other members of the Sector South staff?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was there a problem that you had with other people praying

17 and using their religion during their work?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What was the need for the comment of habit of turning towards

20 Mecca at certain times of the day?

21 A. Because that is what was taking place in the headquarter.

22 Q. I'd like you to go to the next page, please.

23 The second paragraph talks about many people reading this will

24 have served in UN headquarters.

25 Well, who was your target audience for this article?

Page 6484

1 A. The member who have -- [Interpretation] The members who

2 subscribed to Citadelle, la Citadelle. It's a magazine.

3 Q. So it is a Canadian audience, in other words?

4 A. [In English] Yes, Canadian and more regimental audience.

5 Q. Okay. And feel free -- I know French is your native tongue.

6 Feel free if there is some problem to refer to that. We have excellent

7 interpreters, so --

8 The remainder of that paragraph discusses, among other things,

9 that there are -- and I will read that section: "I would confirm that

10 the problem of command coordination and control is repeated in the

11 absence of political solutions which I admit are difficult to adopt.

12 Each organism gets bogged down in justifying its existence, its role in

13 the field and the chain of command which directs it, whether it is the UN

14 civilian police, the UNHCR, or the civilian representatives. The

15 military commander is thus confronted by a multitude of political

16 obstacles which he could well do without. This is what I observe there."

17 And my question to you is: This difficulty in coordination and

18 in problems of command and control, is that something that you observed

19 in Knin during your time there, in Sector South?

20 A. Yes, yes, this is what the article is referring to.

21 Q. And is it true that in essence often times, for lack of a better

22 term, the right hand in Sector South didn't know what the left hand was

23 doing because of this lack of control?

24 A. If you could be more precise.

25 Q. Sure. You said that there was a difficulty in command and

Page 6485

1 coordination among the various organisations that were headquartered in

2 Sector South over which General Forand had command. Correct?

3 A. He was the Sector South commander. Not sure if the highest UN or

4 civilian representative there was really under him. They were at some

5 kind of level, but he was certainly the military authority commander,

6 yeah.

7 Q. So there was difficulty in communications within Sector South

8 despite who was in military command. Correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And that was in a time when there was absolutely no fighting

11 going on. Correct?

12 I mean you got there in June of 1995, right, so before

13 Operation Storm there was some difficulty even before there was any kind

14 of fighting going on in knowing essentially what was going on and who was

15 speaking with whom.

16 A. Yes, in a lesser extent, but, yes.

17 Q. When you served in Sarajevo in July of 1992, were you serving

18 under General McKenzie?

19 A. He was the Sarajevo UN commander there, so there's all kind of

20 unit working for him. I was part of the unit that was serving for him.

21 But not directly. You know, I have never met him, but I served under

22 him.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to go back to your statement, please.

24 And before we do that, I guess, you served as an aide to General Forand,

25 you stated. What exactly did you do? Can you give us a description of

Page 6486

1 your role before Operation Storm?

2 A. Agenda, overseeing the resident staff. I also saw myself as

3 somehow his body-guard or being personally responsible for his security

4 and accompanied him during various Sector South unit visits before

5 Operation Storm, yeah.

6 Q. Can you describe what you mean by agenda? Would you set the

7 agenda for the day?

8 A. Yeah, yeah. Not for the day itself, but for planning of visit or

9 conference in Zagreb or something. I was making the liaison with the

10 authority and putting the calendar together.

11 Q. Who else was on that resident staff?

12 A. There was Corporal Desroches, who was living there. He was a

13 driver. And master corporal Ellis, the cook.

14 Q. Anyone else?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you have any interpreters?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was your position in terms of the things that you did the same

19 other than you mentioned you were refugee -- in charge of the refugees.

20 Did your position change at all after Operation Storm?

21 A. Yeah, it changed when I became the refugee officer, but I would

22 say between the period of the 5th of August until the became the refugee

23 officer, we were to create new accommodation on Sector South, new --

24 because we were living outside so I was responsible to put that up, and

25 less of the calendar, and, let's say the day-to-day running of the

Page 6487

1 office.

2 Q. Were you the person -- would you be -- let me try to think of a

3 different way to phrase this.

4 When General Forand would go to a meeting, would you be with him

5 at all the meetings?

6 A. Yes. But not all of them. There's some in my statement that I

7 was not there and I know that General Forand went to other meeting

8 without me.

9 Q. Now, at that time Colonel Leslie was the Chief of Staff. What

10 was your relationship with Colonel Leslie?

11 A. He was the Chief of Staff until, I would say, around the 4th of

12 August and the new Chief of Staff came in, and because of the war it

13 could not left, so he was still in the headquarter for four or five days,

14 I would estimate, and I had a good relationship with Colonel Leslie also.

15 Q. I'd like you to refer to paragraph 35 of your statement, please.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. And you -- in this paragraph you discussion the refugees. And

18 I'll go to the sentence that starts with "they" on the third line,

19 "they," and I'm presuming that those are the Serb refugees. Correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. "Were worried about what would happen to them if they went back

22 and no one could guarantee their safety. This is why most of the people

23 ultimately went back to Serbia."

24 And my question to you is, is it your understanding that these

25 refugees originally came from Serbia into Sector South and then went back

Page 6488

1 to Serbia?

2 A. No. My understanding is that they were from Serb ethnic origin

3 living in Knin, I would say, for at least the last three years, and then

4 there was no other -- no other choice than going back to Serbia, Belgrade

5 or going back to -- I'm mentioning Serbia but I think that when they left

6 the camp they all went back to Belgrade and were left there.

7 Q. Were you aware at any time of any efforts that were undertaken by

8 the Croatian government to try to ensure their safety if they stayed?

9 A. Oh, yes, that was mentioned.

10 Q. So you, as refugee officer, were aware of statements made by the

11 Croatian government to try to keep these people from leaving. Correct?

12 A. Yes. When General Cermak came and met with the refugee, that was

13 the message that was passed to them.

14 Q. I'd like to refer to paragraph 29, please.

15 And the third line, which is -- starts: "When we got there,"

16 meaning to General Forand's residence. Correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. "We could see that the entire house had been thrashed, completely

19 vandalized allegedly by the Croatian soldiers, special police, military

20 police and the Croat occupation forces in general."

21 Now, is there anyone else that you wanted to add to that list?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How do you know that -- can you identify what a special police

24 member looks like?

25 A. No.