1 Tuesday, 15 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Ms. Mahindaratne, I take it that it will be you who examines the
12 next witness.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Are you ready?
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, I am ready, Mr. President. The
16 Prosecution called Elisabeth Rehn.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Usher, can you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Madam.
21 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you
23 make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
24 and nothing but the truth.
25 The text will now be handed out to you by the usher. May I
1 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
5 WITNESS: ELISABETH REHN
6 Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Rehn, you will first be examined by
8 Ms. Mahindaratne who is counsel for the Prosecution.
9 Ms. Mahindaratne, you may proceed.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Rehn.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record?
14 A. I'm Marta Elisabeth Rehn born in Finland.
15 Q. Did you make a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, May I just intervene. I hate to
17 ask the next question because it might not be considered not very polite,
18 but we have different dates of birth for you on the statement. May I,
19 nevertheless, ask you to indicate which year it was.
20 THE WITNESS: I think that this is a quite a good start in the
21 way that there is a sense of humour in this. They were so nice when
22 interviewing me for the first time, they took away ten years of my age.
23 So the correct one is --
24 JUDGE ORIE: That answers my question. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Mrs. Rehn, did you make a statement to the Office of the
4 Prosecutor on 13th and 14th October 2005?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. And, thereafter, on the 21st February 2007, did you make a
7 further statement clarifying and providing additional information to your
8 previous statement, which you signed on 3rd April 2008?
9 A. That is also correct.
10 Q. Now, yesterday, did you examine both these statements?
11 A. Yes, I did it.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number 5315
13 on the screen, please.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The Prosecution counsel is
15 kindly requested to speak into the microphone, preferably the long
16 microphone on the left side.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I hope that is clear.
18 Q. Mrs. Rehn, in a moment, you will see on your screen a document,
19 and if you could identify it as -- as your statement of 2005.
20 A. Yes. This is quite correct. This is -- this is the document we
21 are talking about.
22 Q. Now, yesterday, when you examined your statements, you provided
23 two further changes --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm again sorry to interrupt, but on our left
25 screen, if we push the e-court button, I get a full blue screen.
1 There we are. It apparently has been fixed. Thank you.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, yesterday, when you examined your statements, you
5 provided two further changes to your statement, and I'll -- so we don't
6 waste much time, I will quickly read that out.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, if you could take the statement
8 to page 3.
9 Q. You could follow the screen, Mrs. Rehn. Are you able to follow
10 the screen?
11 A. I can do that.
12 Q. You made a change to the first paragraph on page 3, the English
13 version, where it is stated that you saw bodies of people killed and
14 carcasses of animals. You corrected it by saying that you did not see
15 bodies of people killed, and only carcasses of animals. That's correct,
16 isn't it?
17 A. This is totally correct, and the confusion is coming from the
18 fact that when I gave my first interview in 2005, I told about a lot of
19 things I had seen, not at least Kravica hill in Srebrenica with the
20 bodies, and then there was a confusion.
21 Q. And then there was a further change you made, Mrs. Rehn, and that
22 is --
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If you could move, Mr. Registrar, to page 5 of
24 the English version.
25 Q. And, there, counting from top, in paragraph 7, that is the
1 paragraph from the bottom, the one before the last paragraph. You refer
2 to meeting President Tudjman on several occasions. You wished to correct
3 it as two occasions: One in December 1995; and the second meeting was
4 when you were the Special Rapporteur to the UN Secretary General.
5 So these corrects were made yesterday. Is that correct?
6 A. That is quite correct.
7 Q. And subject to those changes, do you find -- did you find the
8 contents of both your statements to be -- to accurately reflect what you
9 stated to the members of the Office of the Prosecutor?
10 A. Yes. I went through these documents still yesterday evening, and
11 there is nothing I could found that would not have been just in relation
12 to what I have been telling.
13 Q. And are the contents true, to the best of your knowledge?
14 A. Definitely, to the best of my knowledge.
15 Q. And if you were asked the questions that you were asked of you by
16 the members of the Office of the Prosecutor again today in court, would
17 your responses be the same?
18 A. Yes. The contents will definitely be the same. Perhaps wordings
19 can be a little bit different, but definitely the act, the meaning, and
20 the contents are the same.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to tender --
22 Q. Before that, if you could identify that -- you did identify that
23 statement on the screen as your first statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to tender this document
1 into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Since there seems to be no objections,
3 Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P598.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P598 is admitted into evidence.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And, Mr. Registrar, if I could called
8 number 5316, and that is the supplemental statement we just referred to,
9 Mr. President, and if I could move that into evidence. Since it is a
10 supplemental statement, Mr. President, it could be given perhaps a
11 subnumber -- I'm sorry. That's not done here.
12 Q. Mrs. Rehn, could you identify that this is the document on the
13 screen is the supplemental statement that you made?
14 A. Yes, exactly. There we even have the right date for my birth.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to tender the statement
16 into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that if the same questions were
18 put as to the accuracy with which the second statement reflects what you
19 said, whether it's in accordance with the truth, to the best of your
20 knowledge, whether you would answer if the same questions would be put to
21 you in the same way.
22 Then there appear to be no objections against admission into
24 Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P599.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P599 is admitted into evidence.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
4 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, when you provided the first statement, did you
5 examine a number of documents, and did you provide explanations with
6 regard to each of those documents in your first statement?
7 A. Yes. There were -- was a lot of reports and documents produced
8 during time, those two and a half year as I functioned as the Special
9 Rapporteur on the human rights situation in the territory of former
11 other parts that I covered.
12 Q. And now, yesterday, did you have the opportunity to examine
13 those -- those documents?
14 A. Oh, yes. I went through them again.
15 Q. Were you satisfied that the contents of those documents were
16 correct and your explanations provided in your first statement with
17 regard to each of those documents was -- were accurate?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I have tendered 17 documents
20 under the 92 ter submission. I wish to withdraw one document which has
21 already been tendered into evidence in a previous instance. May I move
22 for the record, Mr. President, that is document number 17, the last
23 document, which is also where I made an application to add it to the
24 65 ter list. That is an Secretary General's report, dated
25 21st December 1995
1 exception of that, may I move that the other 16 documents be tendered
2 into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against any of the 16 documents?
4 Mr. Misetic.
5 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour. I believe we have tendered one
6 of the other documents in the batch that we submitted last week, which
7 is -- I think it's number 10 on the list, which is also 1D33-0336 and was
8 tendered by the Gotovina Defence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information.
10 MR. MISETIC: Otherwise, we have no objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So we are back from 17 now to 15. May I suggest
12 that Mr. Registrar will put the 15 documents on a list and provisionally
13 assign numbers to them, so that we'll then under those numbers admit them
14 into evidence.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, with regard to the 15
16 documents, there is one document where I have requested Court -- made an
17 application to add it to the 65 ter list. That is document on the 92 ter
18 submission numbered 16. That is letter sent by United Nations High
19 Commission for Human Rights To the president of the Republic of Croatia
20 dated 2nd October 1995
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I take that since there are no objections
22 against admission into evidence, that there were no objections against
23 adding this document to the 65 ter list?
24 MR. MISETIC: That's correct. No objection.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 Then, Mr. Registrar, you're invited to proceed as I suggested.
2 Ms. Mahindaratne.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Mr. President, for the record, may I also make an application
5 that document number 4312, that is the 65 ter number, be admitted under
6 seal. I could -- if an explanation is required, I could explain in
7 private sessions.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against this.
9 MR. MISETIC: I'm not sure what document we're referring to.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Those are the minutes of the meeting between
11 the witness and members of the Croatian government and international
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's the 9th of October, 1995, Ms. Mahindaratne.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we go briefly into private session, so
16 you can explain what reason that might have been.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: yes, Mr. President.
18 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I read the summary of the
14 witness's 92 ter submission.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you have explained to Mrs. Rehn what
16 the summary is for.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Ms. Elisabeth Rehn was the United Nations
20 Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights for the situation on
21 the territory of former Yugoslavia
22 In this capacity, she visited the Krajina following Operation Storm. She
23 conducted meetings with members of the Croatian government, including the
24 president of the Republic of Croatia
25 Defence, Gojko Susak; and the Minister of the Interior, Ivan Jarnjak,
1 where crimes committed by members of the Croatian forces and the
2 potential for the Serb population to return to the region were discussed.
3 She inquired from representatives of the government of the Republic of
5 received their responses. Mrs. Rehn reported her findings to, inter
6 alia, the United Nations General Assembly and the United Nations Security
8 Mrs. Rehn was a member of the parliament of Finland from 1979 to
9 1995, the minister of Defence from 1990 to 1995, and presidential
10 candidate in 1994 and 2000. In January 1998, she was appointed to the
11 United Nations Special Representative -- I'm sorry. She was appointed as
12 the United Nation's Special Representative to the Secretary-General in
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina and held that appointment until 1999.
14 That concludes the summary, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number 309,
19 Mr. President, may I request that I be permitted to give -- allow
20 the witness to go through hard copies.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It seems very practical.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
24 Q. Mrs. Rehn, if you wish to go through the hard copies, it's at
25 tab 3 of your binder. The tabs are marked.
1 Now, when you compiled reports, Mrs. Rehn, on situation in
3 that correct?
4 A. That's quite correct.
5 Q. And is this document such a response submitted to you by the
6 Croatian government?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I tender this document into
10 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
11 Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P600.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P600 is admitted into evidence.
14 Ms. Mahindaratne, I see that on your witness P141 list, you refer
15 to witness statement P141, which could create some confusion since P141
16 looks as if it was an exhibit number, although it's clear that you did
17 not intend this to be an exhibit number. If you would make that
18 Prosecution witness or even the name of the witness, since there are no
19 protective measures.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will do that, Mr. President. I apologise.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document 4351,
24 Q. And, Mrs. Rehn, first, I'd like to look at -- I'd like to you
25 look at your statement while the document is being brought up on the
1 screen, and your statement is at tab 1.
2 Could you follow it. In page 5 of your statement, if I could
3 take to you paragraph 5 -- I'm sorry, paragraph 4.
4 A. Mm-hm.
5 Q. And from that point up to page 6, paragraph 5, you referred to a
6 meeting you had with President Tudjman, Mr. Jarnjak, and Minister Susak.
7 Now, the document I'd like you to look at are the minutes. It's
8 on the screen. If you wish to look at the hard copy, it's at
9 tab number 3 -- I'm sorry, tab number 11 of your binder.
10 Are these the minutes containing a report of those meetings?
11 A. Yes, they are.
12 Q. Now, who compiled these minutes?
13 A. You can see on the screen or I can see or everybody can see that
14 I had with me on the meetings Roman Werocevski [phoen] from the Centre
15 for Human Rights Representing the commission that always follow me; and
16 then for the Croatian human rights office, Diakite Mamadi, and he was the
17 one, Mr. Mamadi, who always made the minutes when he was travelling with
18 us. So these minutes are made by him.
19 Q. Now, did you meet these individuals, the president and the
20 minister, at one meeting or in separate meetings?
21 A. It was always separate meetings. It's the best way you're doing
22 it, also the practical way, because it is really difficult to get
23 presidents and ministers together at the same time.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, if we could move to the next
25 page -- I'm sorry. It's a page after that, page number 3. That is the
1 ERN 77. That's correct. That's the one.
2 Q. Now, I'd like, Mrs. Rehn, if you could focus on
3 paragraph number 10. Now this is -- this refers to your meeting with
4 Mr. Jarnjak.
5 A. Oh, oh, oh, oh.
6 Q. I'm referring to the document on the screen.
7 If you could just look at paragraph number 10, there is a
8 discussion about illegal and forcible evictions from military apartments.
9 And under paragraph number 10, the third paragraph it reads like this:
10 "Asked about the obligation of the Ministry of Interior and especially
11 why the civilian police cannot prevent violence and assaults committed in
12 this matter, Minister Jarnjak mentioned that the civilian police have
13 always been present and did everything within their authority and
14 competence. He mentioned that in forcible evictions, judicial sanctions
15 are required. However, if the perpetrators are military men, only the
16 military police is competent and they do not have any authority to
18 Now, do you recall that statement being made by Mr. Jarnjak?
19 A. Oh, yes, I remember.
20 Q. Now, that same day, you met the Minister of Defence, Mr. Susak.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And, Mr. Registrar, if we could move down to
22 the page with ERN number 7185. I know it's difficult to go by the ERN
23 number. It's just that the page numbering is a little messed up. If we
24 could go to the top of the document, you could follow that. Yes. That
25 page, yeah.
1 Q. Now, from this page onwards, you have the minutes of your meeting
2 with Mr. Susak. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes. He didn't like me at all, and my reports.
4 Q. Did he inform you as to why he did not like your reports?
5 A. Hmm. It was because of that he thought that we have been too
6 much focussing on the military approach instead of looking into all the
7 criminal acts that had been done by civilians, and also what has happened
8 before my time as Special Rapporteur.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Now if we could move to the next page.
10 Q. And, there, under paragraph 7, it seems that the same issue, that
11 of illegal eviction from military apartments, has been discussed with
12 Mr. Susak. Now, was his response on this issue consistent with what
13 Mr. Jarnjak told you; that is, that only the military police could be
14 utilized to resolve this situation, or was it contradictory?
15 A. It was contradictory in the sense that Minister Jarnjak made it
16 clear that the civilian police cannot interfere when it is a military
17 eviction; but, again, according to Minister Susak, he made it quite clear
18 that there must be a court order that they cannot force anyone to leave.
19 And, so, they need a special request from the court, and the courts are
20 responsible to deal with all complaints.
21 But then --
22 Q. Mrs. Rehn, do you recall if, in fact, Mr. Susak confirmed that
23 civilian police could not intervene at this stage, or if he, in fact --
24 did he address that at all?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
1 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I have never done this before, but the
2 relevance of this line of question escapes me on evictions for military
3 personnel in November of 1995, so if we could get at least a proffer as
4 to what the relevance of this inquiry is.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, The relevance is that we have
7 had led a lot of evidence here about the ability of the civilian police
8 to interfere with the military when certain acts of violence are
9 committed, you know. It is -- if you go back it Mr. Jarnjak's minutes
10 regarding Mr. Jarnjak's discussion, the reference is to violence and it
11 is not just eviction. The reference is to violence perpetrated by
12 military personnel.
13 MR. MISETIC: Then I have a standing objection to this. This
14 requires going into Croatian law on who owns the military apartments.
15 There is an entire procedure. As a matter of fact, it is in the
16 documents she has tendered, a responses from the Croatian government
17 outlining all of the laws, which is completely different than a security
18 situation generally in a territory, which is what was discussed
19 previously. But she can use her time as she wishes, but we have a
20 standing objection to the relevance of who has ownership to military
21 apartments and who is responsible under the law for conducting an
22 eviction from a military apartment.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I don't wish to waste time
25 since I have finish this. I will make arguments. The document is before
1 the Chamber. I will move on.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
4 Q. Mrs. Rehn, let me take you to your -- the minutes of your meeting
5 with Mr. Tudjman.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And that is, if could you go back,
7 Mr. Registrar, to page bearing ERN number 7183.
8 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, you have described this meeting and your
9 conversation with Mr. Tudjman already in your statement. Do you confirm
10 that this -- these are the minutes of that meeting?
11 A. Oh, yes.
12 Q. And if you could go to the next page, I'd like to draw your
13 attention, Mrs. Rehn, to the paragraph numbered 6 where it is states,
14 noted that: "The Special Rapporteur commented that a peaceful solution
15 is most important even if there is so much hatred and distrust among
16 people. Therefore, the protection of all human rights of Serbs should be
17 guaranteed, and justice is a basic human rights. A fair trial should be
18 guaranteed and justice made without delay for those who have been accused
19 for looting and arson, to demonstrate that the judiciary is functioning.
20 She mentioned the situation in Kuplensko camp, inquiring whether the
21 return of all refugees would take some time."
22 And then there is a discussion between you and Mr. Tudjman. And
23 then under paragraph numbered 7, the second paragraph, Mr. Tudjman goes
24 on addressing you: "He pointed out the goodwill of Croatia by referring
25 to a possible decree on amnesty (which already created some resistance)
1 that trials will be initiated for those accused only for war crimes and
2 not armed rebellion. According to the president, this decision is not a
3 positive step towards normalization of..." -- Is, I'm sorry.
4 "According to the president, this decision is a positive step
5 towards the normalization of relations between Croatia and Serbia
6 Now, Mrs. Rehn, you, yourself, in some of your reports call for a
7 general amnesty for the former members of the combatants of the
8 so-called RSK.
9 Now, could you explain when the international community asked for
10 a general amnesty, as it is also stated here, what exactly were you
11 asking for? Was it amnesty against prosecution of crimes, or amnesty --
12 MR. MISETIC: This is leading the witness, Your Honour.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No. I haven't finished my question.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the leading part is there already
16 MR. KEHOE: That's right.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you could please rephrase.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
19 Q. Well, Mrs. Rehn, could you explain to Court what that amnesty
20 was, the general amnesty that the international community was calling
22 A. It is quite clear that the international community was definitely
23 not asking for an amnesty for criminals, for criminal acts and war crimes
24 even, but what we asked for was an amnesty so that people whoever side
25 they represented were not afraid of returning back home again. That was
1 especially important in the Croatian -- of the Serbs who been leaving
2 the -- the Krajina region, and that they are not afraid of being -- being
3 just taken in prison when they are returning back home again, if they can
4 return back home.
5 And this is what was meant by the whole international community.
6 We discussed it a lot, that an amnesty is important. But if you only
7 point out those names they were some hundreds who had got amnesty, then
8 it is creating a fear with the others that, "If I'm not on that list,
9 what will happen to me," even if they were ordinary combatants obeying
11 Q. Now, at your meeting with Mr. Tudjman, he says that an amnesty
12 was being considered for those -- for -- and it says: Trials will be
13 initiated for those accused only for war crimes and not armed rebellion."
14 So did you understand Mr. Tudjman to be speaking of that same
15 type of amnesty that the international community was referring to?
16 A. Yes, definitely. I think that he had a very good intention in
17 this; but when you look then what it will lead to and the fears that
18 people had, it was not in that sense the correct way of doing this. So,
19 therefore, we warned about this and the international community asked for
20 the general amnesty; of course, excluding criminals.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I tender this document into
23 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
24 Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P601.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P601 is admitted into evidence.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I just want -- wish to point out that document
3 is, in fact, included in the 92 ter submission, Mr. Register, so that
4 there won't be any duplicity in assigning numbers.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar, the list is back to 14.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document 4365,
9 Q. Mrs. Rehn, if you wish to look at the hard copy, it's at tab 12.
10 Now, in your statement, you refer to sending a letter to the
11 foreign minister of Croatia
12 the incident that occurred in Grubori on 25th August 1995.
13 Now, if you could look at the document which is on the screen or
14 the hard copies, this is a document, a letter that you sent?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if I could -- if we could go to page 2 of
17 the English -- English document.
18 Q. Mrs. Rehn, if I could just take your attention to paragraph 3, on
19 the first page of the letter, you write: "With regard to the reported
20 investigation of the Grubori case, it is mentioned in the recent report
21 by the government of the Republic of Croatia
22 Security Council Resolution 1019, 1995, that the site of the crime was
23 inspected by police on the same day on which it was reported by the
24 UN Human Rights Action Team on 25 August 1995,(page 8).
25 "Furthermore, General Cermak stated in an interview with
1 UN personnel on 26 August, that the Croatian authorities reached the
2 village and took care of the people on the evening of 25th August. He
3 also remarked in a letter to the UN, dated 31 August, that he personally
4 visited the hamlet the following day."
5 Now what was the basis of that information? From where did you
6 gather that information?
7 A. This was the information I got from my own staff, the United
8 Nations Human Rights staff visiting the place and others within UNCRO.
9 So it was discussions, it was reports that were given, and personal
10 visits by those people.
11 Q. And who informed you about the statement Mr. Cermak had made
12 about this matter?
13 A. That is something I definitely can't remember who was the person,
14 because, as you know, a Special Rapporteur is working with a team of
15 people who are telling what has happened there, what they have followed
16 up; and then we are making the conclusions out of this. And,
17 unfortunately, I don't have that, that information, who exactly was the
18 person in our team.
19 Q. If I could take you to the next page, Mrs. Rehn.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And, Mr. Registrar, if you could move to
21 page 2, both B/C/S and the English.
22 Q. There, under the paragraph numbered 2, there's a list of
23 registration numbers of vehicles, as being vehicles that were observed in
24 the vicinity of Grubori on 25th August 1995
25 Now, from where did you get those numbers?
1 A. It is exactly the same, that the UN team of -- from the UNCRO and
2 our people, the human rights office people, had been watching this. They
3 were present there, and they collectively told this during an information
4 meeting to me.
5 Q. And did you ever receive a response from the Croatian government
6 identifying to whom those vehicles belonged to at the time or who used
7 those vehicles? Did you get a response to this inquiry?
8 A. Unfortunately, I got a lot of answering letters to different
9 cases, and I'm very grateful for the way that the Croatian government
10 acted in this. But this specific case was something I never could get
11 more than around that. Investigations are still going on. And that was,
12 of course, a little bit worrying with regard to the fact that they could
13 give exact dates like the register numbers of the vehicles and at which
14 hour what happened; and so on, not to mention the very -- very odd
15 UN meeting that are being called for, so that every person from Grubori
16 almost was away from -- from the village.
17 I not only requested from Minister Granic about this, but also
18 from his staff that I met now and then, and nobody could give me a
19 relevant answer.
20 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, to your knowledge, during your tenure as Special
21 Rapporteur, are you aware that your office or any party ever received a
22 satisfactory response from the Croatian government or the Croatian
23 authorities about an investigation into the Grubori incident?
24 A. No, unfortunately not. They didn't receive because that was an
25 ongoing story. One could, of course, ask that why just one very sad
1 incident when there were so many, but my method of working was that the
2 individuals, the human rights or the individuals, were the most
3 important. So even one single case should have a proper answer, and we
4 never got it.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I move to tendered this
6 document into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Since there appear to be any objections,
8 Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P602.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P602 is admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 May I call up document 2566, please.
14 Q. Mrs. Rehn, that document is not in your tab. You will probably
15 see it on the screen in a moment?
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Now, in the document we just looked at, you -- in that first
18 paragraph I read out to you, it was stated that Mr. Cermak had remarked
19 in a letter to the UN, dated 31st August, that he personally visited the
20 hamlet the following day.
21 Now, are you -- have you seen this document before?
22 A. No, never.
23 Q. You refer to a letter written by Mr. Cermak to the UN regarding
24 his visit to the Grubori area the following day. At the time, was a copy
25 of that letter shown to you, or did anybody inform that you such a letter
1 was written?
2 A. It was informed that there was a letter. Of course, I can't --
3 if I'm just sticking to the truth, I can't remember that it would have
4 been shown to me. But at least I never got a copy, and I can't recall
5 that I would have seen it.
6 Q. Now, in this document, Mr. Cermak describes -- provides a report
7 of the incident.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if you could move the next page.
9 Q. In the last paragraph, Mr. Cermak reports as this: "I personally
10 visited the area the following day and convinced myself of the
11 truthfulness and the course of the incidents in question."
12 And I just want to point that out because that is what you had
13 reported in your letter to the minister of foreign affairs.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may of move this document into
15 evidence, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Since I hear of no objections, Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P603.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P603 is admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number
21 5317, please.
22 Q. Now, while the document is coming up, Mrs. Rehn, if I could just
23 take to you your statement, the 2005 statement. At page 8, paragraph 5
24 you refer to two letters, where you say: "In the Secretary-General's
25 report ER/2, paragraph 28, there is an reference to letters written by
1 the high commissioner for human rights to President Tudjman with respect
2 to the return of the Serbs being prevented by serious violations of human
3 rights together with executive and legislative measures. I am familiar
4 with both those letters, and I produce a copy of the letter dated
5 18 August 1995
6 Now, the other letter was not available at the time. Do you
7 recognise document on the screen?
8 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Is that the other letter, dated 2nd October 1995, that you
10 referred to in this paragraph --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- in your statement?
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this document into
14 evidence, and it is part of the 92 ter submission. At the end of the
15 day's sessions, I will inform Mr. Registrar as to what documents were
16 tendered through the court.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because it reduces the size of the list to 13
18 now. I wonder whether we ever come to zero.
19 Any objection.
20 MR. MISETIC: I have no objection, Your Honour. I just want to
21 the note for the record that I need those numbers, so that I can conduct
22 the cross-examination and refer back to them. We'll figure out during
23 the break how I'm going to refer to these documents.
24 JUDGE ORIE: As always, the breaks are more busy than what
25 happens this Court.
1 Mr. Registrar, do you think the list, which is now reduced to 13,
2 could be produced after the break.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Absolutely, Your Honours, and this exhibit
4 becomes P604.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P604 is admitted into evidence.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That concludes examination-in-chief,
8 Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
10 Having the numbers only after that break, would that cause you
11 major problems at this moment, Mr. Misetic?
12 MR. MISETIC: It won't be a major problem if I could just get the
13 Court's indulgence if I fumble around a bit trying to find the right
15 JUDGE ORIE: We will show the same patience as we usually do.
16 Whether that is patient enough is still to be seen.
17 Mrs. Rehn, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Misetic who is
18 counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:
20 MR. MISETIC:
21 Q. Mrs. Rehn, good morning.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. I would like to start by taking you to the 4 December 1995
24 meeting that you had with President Tudjman which is, I believe, at
25 page 5 of your first statement. And you, in your statement, make several
1 characterizations about President Tudjman during that meeting. You say,
2 in your statement: "I remember telling Tudjman that the perpetrators of
3 crimes ..." -- I'm sorry. It starts above that.
4 "My impression of President Tudjman when I spoke to him on more
5 than one occasion was that he was quite detached whenever we tried to
6 speak about the Serbian refugees returning to the Krajina. He was not
7 interested in that particular subject. In the minutes, it was recorded
8 and I remember that Tudjman suggested that to punish the perpetrators of
9 crimes in Operation Storm would cause problems, and he was clearly not
10 interested in punishing anyone. He indicated that in the main the
11 perpetrators were civilians and made no reference to crimes being
12 committed by the military. In effect, he was trying to protect the good
13 name of the Croatian army."
14 And then the last paragraph is: "I remember telling Tudjman that
15 the perpetrators of crimes, like looting and arson, should be dealt with
16 quickly to show the judicial system was working. Tudjman responded by
17 talking about the crimes that were committed by the Muslims on the
18 Croats. In effect, he was not interested in what I was saying. He was
19 on the one hand trying to justify what had happened by talking about
20 crimes committed against Croats elsewhere or during another time, and I
21 clearly got the impression after talking to him on several occasions that
22 there was no political will to punish the perpetrators of crimes
23 committed during Operation Storm."
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I point out that there was
25 an amendment to that.
1 MR. MISETIC: I was about to do that, Your Honour. I was just
2 waiting for the translation to finish.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, you are -- yes. Now your comment
4 appears on screen. I was listening to the French channel.
5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm about to make -- I just waiting
6 for the translation to finish, and then I was going to point that out.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Mr. Misetic, please proceed.
9 MR. MISETIC:
10 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, you have already point out for us this morning
11 that where in the statement it says you spoke to him on several
12 occasions, that's actually two occasions?
13 A. Mm-hm.
14 Q. Okay. And it is fair to say that these impressions were then
15 formed from that meeting on the 4th of December, 1995. Is that correct?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. It was quite a long meeting.
19 Q. Mrs. Rehn, we have the audiotape. I don't know if you're aware
20 that President Tudjman taped all his conversations. We are going to play
21 for you - I believe it is a 22 minute meeting - the entire meeting, and
22 I'd ask to you listen closely and try to note in as you listen where you
23 made or where these impressions were formed. And you'll see a transcript
24 also as we go along.
25 MR. MISETIC: If I could have that, Mr. Registrar. I also have a
1 transcript in hard copy for the witness, so that she can make notations
2 or refer to the specific portions of the conversation.
3 Q. And then after we're done, I will take you back to your statement
4 and ask you to identify where in the conversations you believe
5 President Tudjman made such assertions.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can I also ask if there is a copy available of
7 the transcript for us.
8 MR. MISETIC: In e-court.
9 I have it call it up. I'm sorry. It is 1D40-0087.
10 [Audiotape played]
11 "Yes. The day before yesterday, very late in the evening, after
12 a very interesting, very useful tour around the territory of the former
14 learned, unfortunately. But I have been very well received all over, and
15 I believe that the atmosphere is getting very open now."
16 "You had discussions with my people in Croatian already?"
17 "I have had with just internal affairs with social welfare, and I
18 am very pleased that there is a possibility to meet with my former
19 colleague, Defence Minister Susak, on the airport, because I'm leaving
20 directly from here to Rome
21 "Have you been already in Sarajevo or Belgrade?"
22 "I was -- I was last time. Now my tour was really going to Banja
23 Luka to Pristina to Mostar; and, yesterday, I went to East Slavonia,
24 Sector East, and that's something that I had find very important, that
25 the -- hopefully good agreement can be fulfilled to all its parts."
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Dear Madam, as you stated,
2 unfortunately some things could not be done. But you must keep in mind
3 that the things that happened in the years during the dissolution of
5 that happened up until these agreements, first the Washington Agreement,
6 the Croatian Muslim agreement, and the Dayton now, that this was one of
7 the most complicated world crisis, and that it is important that we get
8 out of this crisis in order to be able to truly dedicate ourselves to
9 humanitarian issues and to the removal of all factors which caused people
10 to suffer, which caused people from those areas, and in general which
11 caused such an abnormal suffering. "Now we are after all on the road to
12 that after the Dayton Accords and hopefully after the signing in Paris
13 towards the normalisation of our relations which will enable us to deal
14 with these issues that you and your delegation are focussing on."
15 "You have not been able to see nice things during your visit.
16 However, it should be borne in mind that what has happened in the years
17 after the dissolution of Yugoslavia
18 aggression and everything after, first of all, the Washington Agreements
19 between the Croats and the Muslims in Bosnia, and now recently the Dayton
20 Agreements, does represent one of the most complicated local crisis.
21 What is essential now is to leave this crisis behind to resolve it, so
22 that we can devote ourselves to humanitarian issues, to the elimination
23 of everything that has caused so much suffering for all the people in the
24 region, to get out, out of this abnormal, truly abnormal situation.
25 Nevertheless, now, after the Dayton Agreements and hopefully after the
1 signing of all of documents in Paris
2 normalisation, and then we can devote ourselves fully to the issues which
3 are your concern."
4 "Mr. President, I am very much supporting your thoughts in this,
5 because I have been all the time stating that I hope that in my work, I
6 can come more away from just bookkeeping on events that, it should be
7 more a question of conclusions of recommendations of how we can face the
8 future and just work together for better understanding of human rights,
9 instead of just telling that those were murdered there, those were
10 looted, those were -- their houses were burnt up, and they are in mass
11 graves. We should come over this situation."
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is precisely the thought that
13 I wanted to express myself. We in Croatia
14 that took place, and we propose that after Tito, this Yugoslav crisis by
15 peaceful means on a confederal basis. We were faced with everything that
16 we were; therefore, Croatia
17 don't know if you visited Vukovar or not, but a third of Croatia was
18 destroyed. Four hundred thousand Croats, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks,
19 were forced out of their homes, and naturally people were murders. It is
20 it understand that in the course of the liberation of these areas, on the
21 Croatian side it was also impossible to constrain the fighting to
22 fighting in gloves. Therefore, first of all, the Yugo-Communist army and
23 the Serbs committed terrible crimes in such an aggression aimed at
24 creating Greater Serbia. And later in the liberation of these areas, it
25 was also impossible to prevent people who had suffered and who were now
1 returning to those areas from committing acts of revenge and stupidity
2 such as destroying homes and so forth. Therefore, it is more important
3 now to forget all of this as soon as possible and to build normal
4 relations among people, among nations; rather, even though it is
5 necessary to punish individuals for war crimes, if we went to this
6 breadth, if we were to approach this issue so broadly, this would mean a
7 new deepening of mistrust and conflict. So it is more important that we
8 develop a new order and establish trust."
9 [Previous translation continues] ... "which I also wanted to
10 express. We in Croatian also wanted to avoid such developments; and
11 after Tito, we wanted to propose. We proposed a solution of the crisis
12 by peaceful means on a confederal basis. However, later on, we were
13 faced with everything that we suffered in Croatian. And later on in
15 have been to Vukovar or not."
16 "Oh, yes. I was yesterday. I could see in my own eyes."
17 "One third of Croatian was destroyed. More than 400.000 people
18 were expelled, Croats, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks; and many of them also
19 lost their lives. And in the process of liberation in these areas by
20 Croatian forces, one couldn't remain just at war. War is not conduct in
21 the gloves anywhere in the world. First of all, it was the Yugoslav
22 Communist and the Serbian aggression which was the cause of horrendous
23 crimes in the area. In their aggression, their aim is to create a
24 Greater Serbia
25 fully restrain our people. There were many people there who suffered
1 loss of human life, loss of their relatives, sacrifices, loss of
2 property, and so forth. Some of them resort to acts of revenge, I mean
3 to stupid things such as destruction of homes and so forth."
4 "So stupid."
5 "What is important, however, is to forget all this, and turn to
6 normalisation of relations among people, among nations in the region.
7 The -- certain individuals, of course, have to be punished for the acts
8 they have committed. But if we go too broadly in this respect, I think
9 this would only deepen the distrust and possibly lead to new conflicts.
10 So what is important I believe that we should turn our attention fully to
11 the establishment of a new order in the region."
12 "Yes. I believe that it's important really to not the look too
13 much in what has been going on. Of course, it is very difficult to
14 forget when you have lost all what you are believing in, to your love, to
15 your relatives, your home, and even your homeland. But perhaps we should
16 more look at not at the revenge, more at the justice and the truth,
17 because there is always a time when the truth is coming -- coming true,
18 and the sooner the better. I have been especially concerned during this
19 tour with just questions of all the return of refugees. With the missing
20 people, that seems to be a very difficult question because that is
21 something that every person wants to know what happened. Even if you
22 have the message that he is killed or she is killed, it's better than not
23 to know. And then, of course, just even the mental health of the
24 children, because you have the future, that's very important. So there
25 have been many things that I have been concerned about, and sometimes I
1 have had the feeling that perhaps there is not the real understanding
2 well in words, but perhaps not in action. And I'm now not talking about
4 implement the agreement from Dayton
5 rights. You know, Mr. President, that I'm a member of the European
6 Parliament, and for us it is industrial important that Croatia who has
7 been in some way in the lead, though, in the democratic procedure for
8 this -- left from the former Yugoslavia
9 as possible the normal democracy and justice, human rights."
10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Rest assured that Croatian
11 authorities are absolutely focussed in that sense. You see, consenting
12 to the Dayton Accords, which means consenting it a peaceful solution
13 concerning the liberation of the occupied territories of Eastern
15 number of the Croatian public, who were saying "Why did we proceed to
16 liberate Eastern Slavonia with military forces as we had done in the case
17 of Western Slavonia, Knin, and so on," because such a huge amount of
18 hatred and distrust have accumulated. But assessing that peace was of a
19 greater importance, and we didn't want all the Serbs to leave. We wanted
20 to establish relations based on trust, and based on our experiences in
21 Knin where we also didn't want all the Serbs to leave. Therefore, the
22 Croatian government will truly attempt to act within the framework of a
23 peaceful solution in the liberated territories, guaranteeing civil
24 rights, and especially resolving issues regarding missing persons which
25 is painful and which is accepted with great difficulty by the people even
1 when they know that the victims are dead..." --
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I did not hear
3 French translation on channel 5 of the last portion of the recorded
4 interview. I'm just wondering how to proceed because I'm switching from
5 one channel to another, and I do not exactly where it started. I suggest
6 that, at this moment, we continue to hear the recording, and that during
7 the break, we'll verify to what extent the French translation is
9 Then how to resolve that is another matter because I would not
10 like to play the whole of the 20 minutes again.
11 Let's proceed and I'll listen to the French translation for the
12 time being.
13 [Audiotape played]
14 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] " ...who have great difficulty to
15 come to terms with this situation. And when it comes to concessions, as
16 far as the Croatian side is concerned, we have also contributed. We have
17 given concessions because there can be no peace without concessions
18 provided by all sides. Therefore, we have the dissatisfaction of those
19 people who due to the evil they had suffered want to proceed with
20 military combat operations and commit acts of revenge. But on a whole,
21 in Croatia
22 order to ensure the development of the principles along the lines you had
23 mentioned earlier."
24 [Previous translation continues] ... "Croatian authorities,
25 Croatian government is absolutely [indiscernible] and commited with this
1 respect. We have agreed to the Dayton Agreement, that is, to the
2 peaceful solution concerning the liberation of the remaining occupied
3 parts of the Republic of Croatia
4 caused certain discontent among a number of the Croatian people and
5 Croatian public because some people are saying, 'Why didn't we go and
6 solve the issue militarily as we did with Western Slavonia, with Knin,
7 and so forth,' because so much hatred and so must distrust has
8 accumulated over the recent period. However, we are fully aware of the
9 fact that peace is more important. We certainly do not want and have not
10 wanted all the Serbs to leave, and we didn't want -- we offer them the
11 protection of human rights and so forth, in our attempts to peacefully
12 liberate all our areas. And we have also, on a number of times, at a
13 number of times, guaranteed all human rights to them. Then, of course,
14 there is particular the issue, the painful issue of missing persons,
15 which is something that many people find difficult to accept, and even
16 when they know that their friend, relatives, members of their families
17 are dead. But still thousands of people find it difficult to reconcile
18 themselves with such a state of affairs and who also find it difficult to
19 recognise themselves with the concessions. I mean, Croatia has also made
20 its contributions in this regard. We have made concessions because there
21 is no peace without concessions on all the parties involved. And, hence,
22 the dissatisfaction of the part of the people who have suffered so much
23 over the past period, and this is why they want to see the matters solved
24 militarily and even feel feelings of revenge. But, nevertheless, we have
25 a stable democratic order, and you can rest assured that we shall provide
1 for the implementation of all the principles in our [indiscernible]."
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Almost 20 years ago, I wrote about
3 the need to Scandinavise this area, both in the sense of democratisation
4 and mutual recognition and co-existence of different ethnicities. In the
5 top echelons of Croatian authorities, I believe there are numerous
6 humanists, according to their calling, their profession, their personal
7 sentiments. The president of the parliament is a writer; the deputy
8 prime minister, a lady, is also a humanist here. We have one of my
9 closest associates, also a writer, a humanist, and so on. In Croatia
10 this democratic government, there are truly not only people of -- who
11 have generally a political commitment. There are people who are truly
12 supportive when it comes to Croatia
13 contribution and Bosnia and Herzegovina, on a whole, towards the
14 normalization of the Croatian-Muslim, the Croatian-Serb relations, and,
15 as I said, this area, instead of being a keg of gunpowder, should become,
16 in accordance with the example of Scandinavia, an area of peace and
17 cooperation amongst nations."
18 [Previous translation continues] ... wrote about the need and
19 necessity to Scandinavise this area, as I called it, on the basis of
20 democratization and mutual recognition and co-existence among peoples and
21 nations. I believe that at the very top of Croatian government there are
22 more humanists by profession and by feeling. The Speaker of our
23 parliament, our vice-premier present here, one of my first associates is
24 also a man of letters and a humanist, so in the Croatian democratic
25 government, we don't have only a general political commitment to the
1 those principles but also their composition goes to show that there are
2 people who truly committed, so that Croatia
3 but also in Bosnia and Herzegovina can contribute to the overall
4 normalization of the relations between the Croats and the Muslims,
5 between the Croats and the Serbs, so that this area does not become what
6 it has been in the past, as they call it, a gunpowder keg but, rather, an
7 example, along the example of Scandinavian countries of peace and
8 cooperation among peoples."
9 "Yes, I'm very pleased to be listening to this. There is quite a
10 lot of Nordic mafia present here just now, with Stoltenberg and Bildt and
11 Rehn and so on, but I hope that this will really be something that is
12 positive and not negative in, in any case, because we really want to do,
13 do our best. I think that just in this democracy process ... that those
14 who now are accused for -- for the looting and killing and so on during
15 Operation Storm, or the Serbian side, there are quite a lot of them in
16 prison that, if possible, even I -- if I know it is a very difficult
17 process, because no courts are capable of being very, very -- just short
18 in time with cases like this, when there are huge amount of them, but it
19 should be good if they could be dealt with quite quickly. So there is
20 the feeling that this is something where the justice is working and they
21 will have then a fair trial. Of course it will be fair, but the trial is
22 also fair when it comes quite, quite soon after committing the crimes.
23 And something I'm also concerned about this, perhaps the situation with
24 the camps, just like Velika Kladusa region, I believe they have
25 difficulties, if there is possible to improvements with their living,
1 because it takes time before they are returning, one by one of course,
2 but so that should be quite important."
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You see, with regards to refugees
4 from Velika Kladusa, this is a good illustration of how complex the
5 situation here is because the Muslims are afraid to return among the
6 Muslim population. And in this case we, Croatia, have done everything we
7 could, our utmost. We even called upon the president and the Turkish
8 government to exert their influence on the Muslim leadership, and we also
9 sent a unit of Croatian police in order to enable them to return as soon
10 as possible. Well, the example of the refugees from Velika Kladusa, also
11 goes to show how complex the situation is, because this is a case of
12 Muslims being afraid to come back among Muslims ..." --
13 "Their own."
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And we, the Republic of Croatia
15 have done everything. We have also asked the Turkish government to help
16 us so that they bring their influence to bear on the Muslim leadership.
17 Even to send a police unit. And we have also sent a unit of the Croatian
18 police there so that this matter can be dealt with as soon as possible.
19 As for the first issue you raised, I must say, frankly, that I had
20 already passed a decision on abolition of those who had participated in
21 the rebellion, the Serbs who had participated in the rebellion against
22 Croatian authorities, except for war criminals. I must admit that we are
23 encountering resistance from a formally legal perspective, including our
24 judiciary, and recently I said, Do not put people on trial only because
25 they participated in the armed rebellion because, in a way, they were
1 forced to do that. Try people only if they had committed war crimes.
2 Therefore, we, in Croatia
3 lines which you described, that we need to let people out of the jails as
4 soon as possible because this is an important step towards establishing
5 and renewing mutual trust between the Croats and Serbs in Croatia
6 also the normalization of the Croat-Serb relations as a whole."
7 [Previous translation continues] ... "speaking, I have already
8 issued a decision, a decree on abolition for all the Serbs who took part
9 in the rebellion against Croatian authorities, against the Croatian
10 government, excepting war criminals, of course. I must say that we do
11 meet with certain resistance in formal legal terms, even from the courts,
12 but even recently I said, Don't try those people who took part in the
13 rebellion because they were forced to. Just try those who are guilty of
14 war crimes, and we shall really do everything operated on such levels.
15 And I also said, 'Release all those people who are not guilty of war
16 crimes, release them from prison.' We believe that this is an important
17 step towards the rebuilding of trust between the Croats and the Serbs in
19 relations between Croatia
20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And we are doing this despite the
21 fact that there those are who are apposed to us, who are radical and
22 extremist element, who are criticizing us, and saying 'Why negotiate, why
23 reconcile with those who had committed the aggression?' But we shall
25 [Previous translation continues] ..."although they are in the
1 opposition ranks, in radical extremist ranks, there are criticisms, 'Why
2 negotiate with these people, why come to terms with them, since they are
3 taken part in the aggression?' But, nevertheless, we shall persevere
4 along the lines which I mentioned."
5 "Yes. I believe it is very important for all of us. As you
6 know, Europe
7 so on. And for us it is very important that sooner or later, there
8 should be a former Yugoslavia
9 Council to start with, and I have the feeling that you are the ones to be
10 starting this process. So my role is, of course, very much of a
11 Rapporteur, but I'm not very, very happy to only report, as I told you in
12 the beginning. I should very much like to contribute to the democratic
13 process in the whole territory; and, therefore, you can certainly count
14 on me. Of course, I'm going to report badly things -- bad things if
15 there are nasty things to report on. I hope that I will be unnecessary
16 soon, but I'm not so far, unfortunately."
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The situation that we are in, we
18 have to try to leave it as so as possible."
19 [Previous translation continues] ... "need to strive to get out
20 of the situation in which we find ours, we have to try to leave it as
21 soon as possible."
22 "Yes. We have our national day the day after tomorrow. Can I
23 bring your regards, Mr. President, to my president?"
24 "My people [indiscernible]."
25 "I hope so."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I'm looking at the clock.
2 MR. MISETIC: I was going to suggest for the interpreters that we
3 take an earlier break.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a breath first, and then a break as well.
5 Then we also could try to verify what is there as far as French
6 translation is concerned, also keeping in mind that, of course, we heard
7 most of what was spoken in B/C/S twice.
8 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It would also give an opportunity to Mrs. Rehn
10 perhaps to go through the transcript and to prepare for the answer to the
11 question you put to her before playing this audio.
12 MR. MISETIC: Yes. If I could just ask her just to confirm.
13 Q. The three voices we hear on the audio are your voice,
14 President Tudjman's voice, and President Tudjman's interpreter. Is that
16 A. That was totally correct, and it was quite interesting to
17 memorize again that discussion.
18 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we take a break firsts.
20 We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises for the late start. It will
24 not be of much consolation to you if I add that it was for good reasons,
25 but it was.
1 Then before we continue, looking at the transcript, Mrs. Rehn, in
2 relation to your second statement, I asked you in a bit of a summarized
3 form whether it accurately reflect what happened you said, whether you
4 would give the same answers, and the transcript doesn't give any explicit
5 confirmation of that, but I understood that you confirmed that it was the
6 same with the second as with the first one.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. It was.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now it is on the transcript.
9 Then, yes, are you ready to continue, Mr. Misetic.
10 MR. MISETIC: I am, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
12 MR. MISETIC:
13 Q. Mrs. Rehn, would you agree with me that one of the --
14 President Tudjman's points in your meeting of the 4th of December was to
15 emphasise his desire for reconciliation between Serbs and Croats both
16 within Croatia
17 A. That is absolutely true and that is also mentioned by me in my
18 reports. You could well follow in our discussion, of course, the
19 diplomatic language that is always made in a certain way when a president
20 and a former minister is present, but it's absolutely true that he was
21 looking for a reconciliation.
22 Q. And having heard the audiotape, do you believe that -- or would
23 you agree that in the context of that discussion about reconciliation,
24 President Tudjman spoke of the need to amnesty people who -- except for
25 people who had committed war crimes?
1 A. Yes. This exception is very important. It was quite clear also
2 repeated by me, that the amnesty was meant for those who had not
3 committed war crimes or real crimes. They can be civilian crimes, too.
4 But what perhaps was missing from the discussion was the question I put
5 about the lootings and misbehaviour from the Croat side.
6 Q. We will get to, in a little while, the issue of whether civilian
7 crimes were covered by the general amnesty and whether the international
8 community wanted them covered by the general amnesty.
9 But for our purposes here, to go back to your statement, for
10 example, you say, at page 5 of your statement: "I remember telling
11 Tudjman that the perpetrators of crimes like looting and arson should be
12 dealt with quickly to show the judicial system was working. Tudjman
13 responded by talking about the crimes that were committed by the Muslims
14 on the Croats. In effect, he was not interested in what I was saying."
15 Did you hear anything in that audio of President Tudjman
16 referring to crimes committed by Muslims against Croats?
17 A. In the beginning, he had a long -- long history of what has
18 happened in the future, and talking about the crimes during the earlier
19 times. So that it was quite clear that he wanted to -- to raise this
20 question, too; that it is not only the Croat who is were guilty but there
21 are on all sides.
22 So I would say that there were no surprises for me when listening
23 now 13 years later to this -- this audio tape of our discussion.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Rehn, where you said what happened in the
25 future, I take it was a slip of the tongue and that you wanted to say
1 what happened in the past.
2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. In the past. Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. MISETIC:
5 Q. You would agree with me, Mrs. Rehn, that his opening or his
6 introduction concerning the background of the conflict, that was his
7 statement before you began --
8 A. Yes, exactly.
9 Q. Just for technical reasons, we have to speak one at a time, so
10 that the court reporter can record your -- my question and your answer.
11 But you do agree, then, that his reference to Muslims was in the
12 overall context of his discussion about what had happened over the
13 previous four years, and that was in his remarks to you. Is that
15 A. Yes. Then, of course, also, you know, the question of the
16 Kuplensko camp, and that was what was actual then, that was referring
17 to -- to two groups of Muslims.
18 Q. But you also would now agree that President Tudjman spoke of that
19 camp because you had specifically asked him --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- about --
22 A. Absolutely, it was so important, as the case for human rights at
23 that time.
24 Q. Just to the Trial Chamber understands what we're talking about,
25 this was a situation of Bosnian Muslim refugees near the Bihac pocket who
1 had escaped a conflict with other Bosnia Muslims, the Bosnia Muslim army
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Correct?
3 A. Yes. And you will know that it was those who were the so-called
4 Abdic followers who had escaped from the Bihac region, and the -- there
5 were thousands of them in the camp in -- in Kuplensko.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may just point out, it
7 is -- the reference to the long history is not before Mrs. Rehn started.
8 According to the transcript I have here, that is transcript page number
9 2, the -- the second slot. There a long narration by Mr. Tudjman about
10 the history in response to a question by Mrs. Rehn. So it not in the
11 oral context. It is in response specifically to a question raised by
12 Mrs. Rehn.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you refer to the second page of the transcript, I
14 think it has the audio and the transcript has not yet been tendered into
15 evidence; so, therefore, the Chamber has no transcript available at this
16 moment because that comes up once we have it. We've only seen it on the
18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, A, I don't think that was my point; B
19 I think -- I will tender it, of course, but obviously for counsel, if she
20 has a different spin on what she wants to say, she has more than --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that what
22 Ms. Mahindaratne did is that you misrepresented this.
23 That's your point, I take it.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And that is not a matter of how to interpret --
1 MR. MISETIC: I disagree that I misrepresented it. My point was
2 that the discussion of burning and looting took place after the
3 discussion about the Muslim Croat conflict.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think there were two instances.
5 Mrs. Rehn, you have at least a transcript.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm in a good position, in that
8 I really asked before the long story from President Tudjman
9 started, I asked about the looting, the houses that were burned up, we
10 should come over this situation. I mention all these crimes that had
11 been committed, and then President Tudjman's long historical overview
12 took place. I'm grateful for the Prosecution for making me observant
13 because I was just believing that there was a right -- right remark from
14 the Defence.
15 And now when I'm checking this situation, I really was bringing
16 this to President Tudjman and then he started. Isn't that correct?
17 MR. MISETIC: Well, we can debate this back and forth, Your
19 What Mrs. Rehn says on the transcript is I believe a more general
20 statement, that she doesn't want to be just a bookkeeper, but she wants
21 to face the future and just work together for better understanding in the
22 future of human rights, instead of just telling that those were murder
23 there, those were looted, those were their houses burned up, and they are
24 in mass graves. We should come over this situation.
25 And then President Tudjman starts to start talking about the
1 overall context, so I don't believe it is accurate to say like
2 Ms. Mahindaratne did that this was a discussion about Operation Storm and
3 that something was posed to President Tudjman --
4 JUDGE ORIE: It was about crimes, but not in a very precise
6 MR. MISETIC: This is again for redirect if she wishes to --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... let's leave it to that.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I just suggest, so that the
9 Chamber could follow the discussions and the questions posed to the
10 witness, that if counsel intends to tender this document into evidence to
11 please -- I cannot, of course, ask counsel to do that, but I think it
12 would be appropriate for the Chamber to follow what is going on --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we have the text on the transcript,
14 but it would be easier for us to have the transcript in hard copy as
16 But let's at this moment --
17 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I believe I'm going to
18 tender both, and that is my intention. That is why I brought it into
20 So, yes, I tender both the audio and the transcript, and the
21 transcript is 1D -- sorry. The clip is 1D40-0087, and that is the
22 transcript as well, I'm advised.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is it all under one number.
24 Ms. Mahindaratne.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
2 Then, Mr. Registrar, audio and transcript together?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, after the assignment of exhibit
4 numbers in the internal memorandum, the next exhibit number would
5 be D681.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then D681 is admitted into evidence.
7 I further inform the parties that during the break, the lack of
8 French translation has been verified. It's lacking only when, for a
9 second time, the same words were spoken. So everything that has been
10 said, apart perhaps from some details, because in the translation there
11 might be slight but very minor discrepancies or differences, that we have
12 a French transcript reflecting what was said in the audio.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mrs. Rehn, turning now to the issue of the general amnesty.
16 MR. MISETIC: First, Mr. Registrar, if could I call up 1D33-0325,
17 and if we could go to page 8 of this document, please.
18 Q. This is a report of the Secretary-General from 14 February 1996
19 on the situation on -- of human rights in Croatia.
20 And at paragraph 30, it says: "On 31 December 1995, the
21 president of Croatia
22 in prison since last summer on charges of armed rebellion for their
23 alleged military support of the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina
24 According to the ICRC, 103 persons were released immediately from prison,
25 while 348 others were transferred to the Gasinci refugee camp in eastern
2 with their wishes, 306 of this latter group were transported with ICRC
3 assistance to the federal republic of Yugoslavia, while the remainder
4 were released in Croatia
5 grant amnesty to these individuals was noted with appreciation by the
6 Security Council in its presidential statement of 8 January 1996."
7 Mrs. Rehn, were you aware that three weeks after this
8 conversation that you had with President Tudjman in which he spoke of
9 reconciliation, granting amnesty to Serbs, that he, in fact, then acted
10 on what he had said to you by issuing an amnesty to Serbs who had been
11 imprisoned during and after Operation Storm?
12 A. I believe that I have reported on this amnesty, and that people
13 were released. So that's totally true, and I'm, of course, not taking in
14 any case the honour to me that it was happening and our conversation.
15 That was, of course, something that was -- was planned, and I have never
16 denied that.
17 Q. I am not -- you shouldn't assume that I think you're denying
18 things. I'm just trying to get your best recollection.
19 A. Yes, yes. I'm totally aware of this.
20 Q. Okay. Now, I'll pull up a document, if necessary, but let me
21 just ask you generally: You are aware that in your report of
22 14 March 1996
23 amnesty for all former combatants of the former of the Serb Krajina?
24 A. Mm-hm, yes.
25 Q. Okay. Now, we're talked about whether common crimes were covered
1 by this.
2 MR. MISETIC: And I need to call up, Mr. Registrar, 1D33-0316,
3 and if we could go to page 9 of this document, please.
4 Q. This is a report of the Secretary-General pursuant to Security
5 Council Resolution 1025, dated 13 December 1995. So it's a little more
6 than a week after your visit with President Tudjman. And at paragraph 25
7 the last sentence, the Secretary-General writes: "I believe that the
8 implementation of the civilian tasks foreseen in the agreement would be
9 made considerably easier if the parties could agree on an amnesty and
10 exception from prosecution for certain categories of offences excluding
11 war crimes."
12 Are you familiar on the basis of this document of what categories
13 of offences were referred to there by the Secretary-General?
14 A. No. I'm definitely not a lawyer, so that I -- I couldn't just
15 exactly tell that this and this and this crimes are of the kind that are
16 outside the amnesty. So, in that sense, it's difficult for me to answer
17 this question. I -- I would like to say -- make it quite honestly.
18 Q. I'll go further with some additional reports, and maybe it will
19 refresh your recollection, Mrs. Rehn.
20 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D40-0015, please,
21 and if we could go to page 6 of this document.
22 Q. This is the further report on the situation of human rights in
24 MR. MISETIC: If we could scroll to paragraph 22 at the bottom,
1 Q. The Secretary-General writes: "As noted in previous reports, a
2 general amnesty law approved by the parliament of Croatia entered into
3 force on 3 October 1996
4 or sentenced for criminal acts committed in connection with aggression,
5 rebellion, or armed conflict between 17 August 1990 and 23 August 1996.
6 Criminal investigations or proceedings related to such acts were to be
7 cancelled, and any detained persons who to whom the amnesty applied were
8 to be released. The legislation exempted from its coverage alleged
9 perpetrators of war crimes."
10 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to the next page, please, and
11 paragraph 24, please.
12 Q. "In the region at present administered by UNTAES, the application
13 of the amnesty law continues to cause widespread concern among the Serb
14 population. At the time of writing of the present report, the Croatian
15 authorities were preparing a definitive list of persons believed by them
16 to be in the region and who, in the eyes of the Ministry of Justice, are
17 not covered by the amnesty law. All those not on the list may then
18 consider themselves as amnestied?"
19 And the last sentence, talking about the minister of justice, he
20 stated that: "The final list of war crime suspect would be released as
21 soon as possible."
22 And, finally, in the paragraph 25 there, starting at the second
23 sentence: "The Croatian government has a clear interest in detaining and
24 prosecuting persons reasonably suspected of war crimes. However, appeals
25 have been made to the government, including by the Special Rapporteur of
1 the Commission on Human Rights to finalise its list of war crime suspects
2 on the basis of existing evidence, to remove uncertainty and ensure that
3 arbitrary arrests are not made among Serbs returning to Croatia."
4 A. Mm-hm.
5 Q. Mrs. Rehn, reading this document, does that refresh your
6 recollection about the fact that not only were ordinary crimes covered by
7 the amnesty law, but that the international community was asking Croatia
8 actually to prepare a list of people who weren't covered by the amnesty
9 law and who may have been responsible for war crimes?
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object to that question.
11 What we saw was that the amnesty covered acts of aggression, rebellion,
12 or armed conflict. We did not see any reference to ordinary crimes.
13 MR. MISETIC: That is false judge, but if she wants to read what
14 it says, then read what it says. It says: "Acts committed in connection
15 with aggression, armed conflict." Correct?
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes. I don't see --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic may put the question to the witness.
18 Please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I'm in trouble now, because this is
20 very much about judiciary and legal questions that are far beyond my --
21 my knowledge. To my memory, we were very strong about that it was
22 important that real crimes should not be taken away to be amnestied.
23 Therefore, I'm a little bit surprised for this, that there even could be
24 a question of that -- that crimes committed during this Operation Storm
25 and otherwise too, that they could be amnestied. Perhaps I should give
1 an explanation still on the work of the Special Rapporteur.
2 May I?
3 MR. MISETIC:
4 Q. I am sorry. I have a series of documents, so I think it is
5 probably most fair to you if I show you the documents and then let you
6 comment on ... [Overlapping speakers] --
7 A. Okay. Do that.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may the witness complete her
9 answer she wanted to explain.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. As a matter of fact, what Mr. Misetic
11 suggested, and which is a fair way of dealing with the matter, is that he
12 first finishes his line of questions, and then if there would be any --
13 if the witness would to explain anything further, that she does that
14 after the questions have been put to her, and that's fair.
15 Mr. Misetic, you may proceed.
16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Then what I will do is I will call up a series of documents, and
18 then I will put the question to you, Mrs. Rehn, after you have had a
19 chance to see all the documents?
20 A. Mm-hm.
21 MR. MISETIC: First, may I tender this report.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D682.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D682 is admitted into evidence.
1 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I may call up 1D40-0025, please.
2 Q. This is a statement by the president of the Security Council,
3 19 March 1997
4 MR. MISETIC: If we can go to page 2, top paragraph.
5 Q. "The Security Council calls upon the government of Croatia
6 remove uncertainty about the implementation of its amnesty law; in
7 particular, by finalising without delay the list of war crime suspects on
8 the basis of existing evidence and in strict accordance with
9 international law, and to put an end to arbitrary arrests particularly of
10 Serbs returning to Croatian."
11 MR. MISETIC: I tendered this document into evidence, Your
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, may I take it that there is no
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D683.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D683 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 If we can now call up 1D40-0027.
21 Q. Mrs. Rehn, this is your report of 31 October 1997.
22 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to - just a minute - paragraph 58,
23 which is page 15 of this document, Mr. Registrar.
24 Q. Mrs. Rehn, you write at paragraph 58, speaking of the amnesty law
25 now: "The legislation applies to persons accused of or sentenced for
1 criminal acts committed in connection with aggression, rebellion, or
2 armed conflict between 17 August 1990
3 investigation or proceedings related to such acts were to be nullified,
4 and any detained persons to whom the amnesty applied were to be released.
5 The legislation exempted from its coverage alleged perpetrators of war
7 Paragraph 59, you then recall the presidential statement which I
8 just showed you of 19 March 1997
9 to remove uncertainty about the implementation of its amnesty law, "I
10 particular by finalising without delay its list of war crime suspects on
11 the basis of existing evidence and in strict accordance with
12 international law, and to put an end to arbitrary arrested particularly
13 of Serbs returning to Croatia
14 however, continues to cause widespread concern among the Serbian
16 MR. MISETIC: And then if we turn to page 23 of this document, at
17 paragraph 98:
18 Q. "The government's final list of 150 suspected war criminals,
19 however, has not had the intended effect, i.e., building confidence among
20 the Serb population. People remain uncertain as to the exact content and
21 real meaning of the list. According to the UNTAES statements," and
22 UNTAES being the acronym for UN Transitional Administration of Eastern
24 from future prosecution for war-related crimes."
25 Now, Mrs. Rehn, this is in your report from the 31st of October,
1 1997. So does this refresh your recollection of the fact that the
2 international community, in order to encourage Serbs to stay in Croatia
3 wanted the broadest possible amnesty law passed. Is that correct?
4 A. Due to -- to this report, it is correct, but you left some
5 sentences out, where I -- I strongly took to discussion the fact that
6 this is creating a lot of unrest with the Serb population, because they
7 don't know if they are safe or not because of all the different lists.
8 There is also this UNTAES. I'm -- I'm a referring to UNTAES statements,
9 that means that this is not my report . It is an UNTAES statement that
10 I'm referring to. It's not my opinion.
11 Q. Yes. But on direct examination, you weren't asked for your
12 opinion. You were asked what the position of the international community
13 was, which is why I'm putting to you UNTAES being a part of the
14 international community, and I actually agree with what you just said.
15 Meaning, in order -- because there was anxiety among the Serb
16 population as to who is covered or not covered by the amnesty law, would
17 you agree with me that the international community insisted that Croatia
18 prepare a list of people who were suspected of war crimes and that
19 everybody who wasn't on the list could consider themselves amnestied for
20 all crimes committed in connection with the armed conflict, even if later
21 it was discovered that they had committed war crimes?
22 A. I think this was quite a leading question, and still --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Rehn, that is permitted in cross-examination.
24 THE WITNESS: But let me reflect on that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 THE WITNESS: You are referring here, as I already said before,
2 to UNTAES statements, where they are of the opinion that everybody should
3 be -- a senior Croatian government said that a list doesn't exist, and
4 there are very many different opinions on this. I would say that it was
5 very difficult at that time to get a special opinion of the international
7 What is the international community? That is a question we have
8 got so many times put to us, because there are different opinions. We
9 wanted to have an amnesty, but definitely not in a way that could put
10 somebody in danger for perhaps not being guaranteed amnesty; and, on the
11 other hand, to -- to make it quite clear, that nobody can just escape
12 with a war crime and even a very, very strong civil crime, like murdering
13 and burning houses.
14 So I think that it was even a part of my discussion with
15 President Tudjman, if I may recall rightly, that these are very tricky
16 questions; and to just ask for one international community opinion at
17 that time with all the problems, I think that would be impossible.
18 MR. MISETIC:
19 Q. Well --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, may I ask you: Will you present at any
21 later stage the list in evidence?
22 MR. MISETIC: We are in the process of obtaining it from the
23 Ministry of Justice, but there were several lists that were circulated,
24 and we're in the process of getting the final list that was turned over
25 to the UN Transitional Authority in Eastern Slavonia.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Because it should shed some light on what I see at
2 this moment as a bit of a problem.
3 From what I understand, but please correct me if I'm wrong,
4 Mrs. Rehn, from what I understand you express concern about the bad
5 things that you had seen happening and that no prosecutions took place.
6 I understood this to be, but again, correct me if I'm wrong, bad things
7 committed by Croats during or after Operation Storm. That's when you
8 were talking about the looting and the burning.
9 Now, the whole line of questioning now shifts to what seems to be
10 not exactly the same problem, which is that Serbs were fearing that, upon
11 return, they might be prosecuted, and that they had some concerns about
12 whether they would be prosecuted for actively taking part in whether you
13 call it rebellion, at least being members of enemy forces, more or less,
14 to Croatia
15 Now, what would assist me is to find out whether this, I would
16 say perhaps, implicit coverage, because not excluded Croats having
17 committed war crimes, if they were committed, whether that was the issue
18 you wanted to raise; or whether the focus, was, when you raised the issue
19 with President Tudjman, on the clear distinction between Serbs having
20 participated in the --
21 MR. MISETIC: I don't think -- sorry. Go ahead.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It would assist me to have a clearer view on that,
23 and that's also the reason why I'm asking about these lists, because if
24 that would be a clearly mixed list, then it could shed some light on the
25 issue which is puzzling me at this moment.
1 MR. MISETIC: If I may respond to that, Your Honour.
2 The --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I said --
4 MR. MISETIC: I mean --
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... that is my concern, and
6 then, of course, you can put questions to the witness, and at least you
7 know what would assist me in better understanding this.
8 MR. MISETIC: I'm actually not sure what the issue is. You're
9 looking for the list.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the list could be one element of having a
11 clearer view on what puzzles me, but also what Mrs. Rehn raised with
12 President Tudjman and what exactly the new legislation and the list were
13 focussing on.
14 MR. MISETIC: I believe I can comment because it is now all in
15 evidence, Your Honour, that the legislation as drafted and as the actual
16 amnesty law I have tendered into evidence, which is 1D33-0495 - I believe
17 it has a number now - was, as you know, in a democratic society, the laws
18 apply equally. It is also incorrect to say that the international
19 community was interested in an amnesty for rebellion crimes, which is
20 precisely why I took her through these documents.
21 The whole point was that the international community insisted
22 that any crime, burning, looting, theft, et cetera, except - and you can
23 read the law as to what was excluded - that was connected to the armed
24 conflict was amnestied. The law applies, as in any democratic country,
25 not on the basis of who's an ethnic member of one group or not, it
1 applies -- equal protection of the law applies.
2 And it was, as I might add --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, Mr. Misetic. I'm not in a debate with
4 you at this moment. What I said is that there was an element in the line
5 of questioning and the testimony of the witness which I was struggling
6 with; and for you to know that I was struggling with it, might guide you
7 in seeking further to clarify these issues.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. MISETIC:
10 Q. Mrs. Rehn, you have heard some of the discussion of the policy
11 behind encouraging the amnesty law. And let me, again, restate - and we
12 had this in response to your last answer - about what is the
13 international community. You would agree with me that the Security
14 Council, in terms of the international community, is one of the highest
15 instances, if not the highest instance, of the representative body that
16 speaks for the international community. Is that correct?
17 A. Of course.
18 Q. Okay. So, again, 19 March 1997
19 Council calls upon the government of Croatia to remove uncertainty about
20 the implementation of its amnesty law, in particular by finalising
21 without delay the list of war crime suspects on the basis of existing
22 evidence and in strict accordance with international law."
23 I'm going to try to address the question that was posed by Judge
24 Orie. But the policy behind the Security Council calling upon Croatia
25 do this was to eliminate any uncertainty for Serbs about their future in
2 be arrested for a crime. Whether it was armed rebellion, theft, some
3 other common crime, the international community through the Security
4 Council wanted Serbs to have certainty as to what laws would apply to
5 them. Isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And in conjunction with that policy, Croatia, you're
8 aware, passed an amnesty act. Correct?
9 A. Mm-hm, yes.
10 Q. And are you aware that that amnesty act applied to all citizens
11 of the Republic of Croatia
12 A. Of course, because there are other minorities, too.
13 Q. And there are majorities, too?
14 A. Sorry. There are other minorities, too, and majorities. There
15 are other nationalities.
16 Q. Correct. Okay.
17 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I don't know if I tendered the 31
18 October 1997 report of Mrs. Rehn, but if I haven't, I tender it now.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 MR. MISETIC: Let me give Mr. Registrar the number, 1D40-0027.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D684.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D684 is admitted into evidence.
24 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, while I'm on this topic, I am going to
25 pull up a document just to tender from the bar table on this amnesty
1 issues, which may be relevant to the Trial Chamber for reasons that I
2 won't go in to, but it is 1D40-0093.
3 Q. This is an ECMM report received by the Gotovina Defence from
4 9 August 1995
5 with," deletion, "who stated that the number of the Croatian fatalities
6 during Operation Storm was 118, and that the Serb losses were not very
7 high because the HV had not met strong Serb resistance. He added that
8 detained Krajina soldiers who have not committed war crimes will be
9 amnestied within one month."
10 MR. MISETIC: And, unfortunately, the redactions were not made by
11 us. This is one --
12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware of that.
13 MR. MISETIC: Yes. So, Your Honour, I'd ask that this document
14 be admitted into evidence.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D685.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D685 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, I'm going to turn your attention now to your
21 meeting with Minister Susak on the 4th of December. And in your
22 statement, you make reference to the fact that -- let me call it up.
23 At page 5, you say: "Susak defended the Croatian military by
24 making reference to my report and saying that I should have concentrated
25 more on the civilians who commited crimes in my earlier report, instead
1 of pointing out that crimes were committed by the Croatian military. I
2 pointed out that my report was based on the facts that been collected by
3 internationals in the field, and some of those situations had been
4 personally observed by me. He was dissatisfied with my report and my
6 Now, I'd like to pull up your 7 November report, which I still
7 have as 65 ter 2710.
8 And I note in your statement, Mrs. Rehn, at page 2, you said: "I
9 prepared reports for the Security Council based on information from many
10 organisations, including ECMM, ICRC, and other human rights
11 organisations. This would include UNPROFOR, UNMO, and UNCIVPOL
12 representatives. My staff would both interview people and check the
13 information before I would report it."
14 Is that how this report of the 7th of November was prepared by
15 gathering information from other international organisations?
16 A. Yes. All my reports are -- were prepared in that way, with
17 personal discussions, with the talking with people on the grass root
18 level with -- with the political leadership; and then gathering
19 information from all the human rights organisations and -- and the UN and
20 other organisations in the field; also, very strongly the national
21 Croatian human rights organisations.
22 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mrs. Rehn.
23 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to page 5 of the report, please.
24 Q. At paragraph 9, the Secretary-General reports: "During her first
25 mission to Croatian, the Special Rapporteur was informed by international
1 observers and representatives of local non-governmental organisations
2 about the status of the various human rights problems persisting in that
3 country. Her mission was also devoted to establishing important contacts
4 with relevant authorities. In future missions, the Special Rapporteur
5 intends to conduct her own first-hand investigations of alleged human
6 rights violations."
7 Now, the way this is phrased, is it fair to say that this report
8 is not on the basis of any first-hand investigation that you had done,
9 and that, instead, you were going to do a first-hand investigation with a
10 subsequent report?
11 A. No, that is totally wrong. It is a wrong interpretation of this,
12 because I made studies. I went to Sector North. I met with people who
13 had been left there. I could myself observe terrible things. So that
14 was totally incorrect.
15 Q. Okay. If we could go to page seven of the report, please.
16 At paragraph 15, you say: "During the military operation,
17 civilian targets including residential areas of Knin were deliberately
18 targeted by the Croatian army."
19 MR. MISETIC: We can stop there.
20 Q. What evidence did you have when you prepared this report that the
21 Croatian army deliberately targeted civilian targets?
22 A. There is, for instance, the Grubori case that I -- sorry.
23 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. This is now talking about during the
24 military action --
25 A. Sorry.
1 Q. -- so during the ... [Overlapping speakers].
2 A. Sorry, sorry, sorry. These are reports that I have got from my
3 staff of the human rights commission, and what they have got through
4 their cooperation with other UN organisations. So, in that sense, it is
5 firsthand -- first-hand information delivered to the Special Rapporteur.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. And, sooner or later, I would like to have the possibility to,
8 with a few words, inform the Court about the way and the independence of
9 a human rights rapporteur.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, you will have an opportunity to do so.
11 Would this be a suitable moment, Mr. Misetic. I don't want to
12 interrupt your --
13 MR. MISETIC:
14 Q. Let me finish this line of questioning, Mrs. Rehn, and then we'll
15 give you an opportunity to speak to that subject.
16 MR. MISETIC: If we could, while we have the document on the
17 screen, turn to page 8, which is the next page.
18 Q. At paragraph 23, it says: "Evidence gathered so far indicates
19 that violations of human rights and humanitarian law which were committed
20 during and after Operation Storm include the following:"
21 And then B says: "Targeting of heavy weapons against militarily
22 insignificant sites in towns, including residence areas of Glina and
24 Now, was this also information that had been obtained by your
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, could I have P64 on the screen,
5 Q. Mrs. Rehn, this is an UNMO report from the 18th of August, so it
6 is several months before your report. Paragraph 1 -- actually, the title
7 or underneath the date is: "Provisional assessment of damage caused by
8 HV operations from the 4th to the 6th of August, 1995 at Knin. UNMO team
9 Podkonje has made a provisional assessment of the damages caused by the
10 HV operations from 04 to 06 August 1995
11 is based on a run down of 70 per cent of Knin town, and gives only a
12 brief overview of the situation."
13 Paragraph 2 says: "In general, shelling was concentrated against
14 military objectives. The damages caused by shelling to civilian
15 establishments is concentrated to the close vicinity of military
16 objectives. Only three to five impacts is observed in other urban
18 MR. MISETIC: And if we could turn -- call up P228,
19 Mr. Registrar.
20 This is an UNCIVPOL assessment of damage in Knin town caused by
21 the Croat liberation, dated 18 August 1995
22 18 August 1995
23 Hansen, I started a survey of Knin town to assess the damage down in Knin
24 town caused by shelling, arson, and wilful damage.
25 "We covered the whole township and observed several impacts of
1 shells/rockets around the Tvik factory, Milicija headquarters," milicija
2 meaning police, "general direction of north barracks, shells coming from
3 the north-east, and between the government house, Knin radio/TV building,
4 and the hillside below Knin castle. The compound of north barracks was
5 not checked. Observation done from street level.
6 "We counted roughly 20 houses, buildings hit by shells and about
7 another 20 presumable damaged by arson," and then it goes on.
8 Mrs. Rehn, when you were preparing your report, was the UNCIVPOL
9 report of the 18th of August, 1995, and the UNMO report of the 18th of
10 August, 1995, was that available for your review before reaching the
11 conclusions that you placed in your report?
12 A. It is impossible for me to recall. Sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I was waiting for the French translation to be
14 finished, otherwise that --
15 THE WITNESS: I understand that, yes, this is totally impossible
16 for me to recall which were the special documents on -- on every occasion
17 and for every paragraph of my reports. You must remember that I was not
18 only covering Croatia
19 that now just answer did this documents be there as a basis for my report
20 on this specific paragraph, it is impossible for me to recall.
21 MR. MISETIC:
22 Q. If you had access to those reports from UNMO and UNCIVPOL, do you
23 think that would have affected your conclusion in your report that the
24 Croatian army deliberately targeted civilian targets?
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object to that question, Mr. President,
1 because there have been other evidence led in this court, and to ask
2 about these two documents in isolation is unfair. Already, the witness
3 has indicated that she cannot recall what reports she reviewed which was
4 the basis for her conclusions.
5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, this is argument and not a legitimate
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, the Chamber is not assisted by putting
10 a question to a witness where she has made a report on the basis of, at
11 this moment, unspecified information, unspecified to the extent that the
12 general source is known, but not the details of that; then to put one or
13 two examples of reports to the witness and then ask her with she would
14 have changed her mind not having been in a position to review all the
15 information. To that extent, the objection by Ms. Mahindaratne is
17 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, it makes it really difficult to
18 cross-examine when they tender a report and then say the witness doesn't
19 know the basis of the conclusions in her own report, and any questions
20 put to her on existing evidence that we have is outside the scope. I
21 don't understand of submitting the report.
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I said it doesn't assist the Chamber. I hope you
24 understand what that primary means, yes?
25 MR. MISETIC: I understand, Your Honour, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mrs. Rehn, if you would like to.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps now is a the moment when
3 I should clarify a little more about the work of a Special Rapporteur on
4 human rights. We have many of them around in the world. They are
5 totally independent. They are not dependant on the United Nations. They
6 are not, in that sense, a part of the United Nations. They are not even
7 having a salary from the United Nations for their work. It is a
8 so-called honorary mission. There is a staff from the human rights
9 commission - that it used to be earlier; it has a new name now - and who
10 are assisting the Special Rapporteur, who are making field trips, who are
11 interviewing other organisations, who are cooperation, and who are
12 lawyers have all these details clear.
13 What is important is that the human rights report to the United
14 Nations is based on common sense and what are the impressions of the
15 Special Rapporteur. It is apparently regarded that that person is a
16 person of some integrity and reliable. And, therefore, the methods have
17 been like this. Security Council commission are giving their answers on
18 resolutions on the reports and then picking up some important questions.
19 I have already made quite clear that judiciary is not my strong
20 part; human rights are, definitely, and the position of individuals in
21 difficult situations. But I don't doubt and I don't want to doubt my
22 sources my people. You were talking about the shelling with artillery on
23 civilian sites. But in the report by the UNMOs, there were mentioned in
24 general, no outside military compounds, but with three to five different
25 situations, that were possible. So it was not totally absolute with that
2 I would say that these reports are very important, giving an
3 overview of the suffering of ordinary people and the answers and -- and
4 the steps they are getting from the political leadership.
5 So in that sense, we must have it clear for us what is the real
6 role of a report. And when saying this, I'm definitely not telling that
7 they should not be reliable. On the contrary. They are very reliable.
8 But they are giving one voice to the misery; in this case, after a very,
9 very, brutal war.
10 Still, with the list where you tried to make me a little bit
11 unconvincing with the lists and the -- and the amnesty, it would be quite
12 easy for us to understand that what I was especially talking about and
13 asking about in Croatia
14 population and what had happened to them. I had all the possibilities in
15 the other parts of the former Yugoslavia
16 against Croats, Muslims, and so on.
17 So even I would say that, of course, I did not mean personally an
18 amnesty that would exclude those who have committed severe crimes. Why
19 should I otherwise have raised the question and the case of Grubori so
20 many times and asked for answers?
21 So I hope this is -- I'm very sorry for taking so much of the
22 time up of the Court, but it was important for me to give an explanation
23 the way the Rapporteur is working.
24 JUDGE ORIE: There is no need to apologise, Mrs. Rehn, for giving
25 the explanation.
1 Could I put one question to you. Mr. Misetic has put to you the
2 line where it say: "Evidence gathered so far indicates that violations
3 of human rights and humanitarian law committed during and after
4 Operation Storm, include the following ..." and then: "B, targeting of
5 heavy weapons against militarily insignificant sites in towns, including
6 residence areas of Glina and Knin."
7 He also has put to you the -- well, he has put this to you. Were
8 your sources unanimous on these matters, because, as you may have
9 noticed, Mr. Misetic, has presented to you some reports with -- which --
10 tend to go in the direction that targeting was mainly against military
11 targets and that impacts were at least close to military targets.
12 My question is: Were your sources unanimous at that time, or did
13 you include, when reporting, also reports which would not fully be in
14 line with your conclusions?
15 THE WITNESS: Of course what I concluded in my reports were
16 reports given to me on what those persons had experienced themselves.
17 And as I already mentioned, at least in the report by UNMOs to -- to
18 Mr. Misetic, there was three to five exceptions to this with the military
19 targets that there could have been three to five military -- non-military
20 targets that were shot at.
21 You will find it somewhere in your -- in your papers that you
22 just presented to us.
23 And, so, it's difficult for me to give a totally covering answer
24 to you, Your Honour, because when we discussed what will be included in
25 the report - and when I'm saying "we," it was the team of the Human
1 Rights Commission's field operation - so we are many discussing this.
2 And of course it was a question of our honour to -- not to just give
3 false information because it would have been against our interests.
4 So I have to stand for those opinions expressed and the firsthand
5 information expressed by my interlocutors.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's no question about thinking at this
7 moment that you would give a false impression. I'm just trying to find
8 out exactly how you work.
9 For example -- let me put it in an example. If you would receive
10 98 reports saying that, for example, shelling was indiscriminate or
11 against civilian targets, and there would be two reports saying, no,
12 targeting was mainly focussing on military targets, would you have then
13 concluded that by such a vast majority that shelling was indiscriminate
14 and would you have mention that as a conclusion, or would you have made a
15 footnote saying that -- I am trying to find out to what extent reports
16 which are not -- are not fully supportive of your conclusions are -- were
17 considered and whether they were explicitly mentioned if they were there,
18 to your knowledge.
19 THE WITNESS: I really hope that I have been able to do as Your
20 Honour advised that I should have been doing, that there could have been
21 footnotes on some unclear cases, but I can't recall that we should have
22 -- had even a discussion that there are other opinions on -- on the
23 things we reported on, because we got our lists, we knew who has been
24 there, who had seen it, and it was a long, long, long list of different
25 cases that we put together.
1 We put our -- our questions to authorities on different levels to
2 get confirmation, and then, of course, so much of course we were tricky,
3 or I personally, that depending on that if the perpetrator was telling
4 that this is not true, who we thought that could be, the perpetrator,
5 then we didn't put so much perhaps strength on -- on that other opinion.
6 But I would say that our reporting was very fair, and if
7 something was very unclear -- and sometimes, of course, I had to -- to
8 make my own decisions that they should not mention this, is it really
9 clear enough, and then we should not mention it because it's better to
10 have an accurate report than to have any fancy things. What was that
11 line was all together with the reports was quite tough wherever I
12 reported from, from Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, Serbia
13 Republic of Macedonia
14 wake up people. That is the function of the rapporteur, to wake up
15 people, that something is not as it should be. It was not the diplomatic
16 language, and I could use that language when I spoke with people, but not
17 in reports.
18 So with quite a long answer, I would say that, to the best of my
19 knowledge, these were accurate reports.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
22 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could get 65 ter 2710 back on
23 the screen at page 27, please.
24 Q. Mrs. Rehn, this is page 27 of your 7 November 1995 report. And
25 at paragraph 105, you write: "Serious human rights violations and
1 violations of humanitarian law were perpetrated by members of the
2 Croatian army during and after Operation Storm in the former Sectors
3 North and South."
4 Now, at the end of this report there's an appendix which
5 identifies persons you met with on your travels from the 9th of October,
6 1995 through the 14th of October, 1995 in the region, and it notes that
7 on Thursday, October 12th, you had a meeting with Mr. Peter Galbraith,
8 Ambassador of the United States of America. And I'd like to call your
9 attention to the fact that Mr. Galbraith testified before this Trial
10 Chamber on the 24th of June, 2008, at page 4985. He was asked: "So it
11 was your conclusion" --
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I could, I think we have an
13 agreement here that even if witnesses are presented with testimonies of
14 other witnesses that this witness in court is asked to present his or her
15 position on a particular issue --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No. Ms. Mahindaratne, the question arose yesterday
17 when Mr. Hedaraly raised the issue.
18 The ruling at that time was if a matter had not been dealt with
19 in examination-in-chief or in the evidence already given, so to that
20 extent it is more or less the introduction of a new document and not just
21 cross-examination in response of the -- then we should elicit from the
22 witness first independent on any other documents.
23 But I think, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Misetic is here
24 cross-examining on matters on which the witness, although through 92 ter,
25 testified in examination-in-chief, and then there's no need to
1 reintroduce that element, but in cross-examination I would say in the --
2 in the limited sense, it is no problem to put to the question -- to the
3 witness what other evidence contains which was presented to the chamber.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Galbraith testified before this Trial Chamber, and he
7 was asked: "So it was your conclusion that the actual attack in
8 Operation Storm in the -- in these first few days was consistent with
9 international humanitarian law. Is that right?
10 "Answer: I don't think there were major violations of
11 international humanitarian law in those first few days."
12 Mrs. Rehn, at paragraph 105 here, you say that during the
13 operation there were violations of humanitarian law. Do you recall if
14 Ambassador Galbraith, in your meeting with him on the 12 October 1995,
15 advised you of his view that there were no major violations of
16 international humanitarian law during the operation itself.
17 A. I remember that we had talks about a lot of -- of problems in --
18 around the Operation Storm. It is impossible for me to remember what
19 exactly we talked about. If I remember rightly, he offered me a nice
20 dinner, but that is something else.
21 But he, of course, is standing for his own opinion, and I'm
22 representing my opinion. So, certainly, if he thinks that there are no
23 major violations of international humanitarian law, I think that all
24 violations against human individuals are a violation.
25 But I can't recall that we specifically talked about this. We
1 talked around all what happened then, and I think we were very much of
2 the same opinion.
3 Q. Okay. Going back, then, to your meeting with Minister Susak on
4 the 4th, it is true, is it not, that Minister Susak was dissatisfied with
5 the conclusions in your report, that the Croatian army deliberately
6 targeted civilians during the operation. Isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And --
9 A. It is stated here in my statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I checked 4985, which is the first page
11 of the 24th of June, I do not find it there. It should be another page.
12 MR. MISETIC: 5043, Your Honour, I apologise.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Q. It was also Minister Susak's opinion during your meeting with him
15 that during Operation Storm there were no major violations of
16 international humanitarian law. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that was his opinion.
18 Q. Okay. Now, there was some discussion about evictions from
19 apartments. You were asked about that by Ms. Mahindaratne.
20 The issue there, you will recall, was not evictions of ordinary
21 Serbs from their homes, correct, the issue was evictions of former
23 the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia
24 A. I would say so, but I think there were also ordinary Serbs. But
25 this is something I'm -- I'm not totally clear with.
1 Q. Those --
2 A. These are details 13 years behind that I just can't recognise and
4 Q. Those ordinary people in the apartments, would they have been
5 family of the military person?
6 A. Could be.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. I think we have a long list of these evictions. I don't have it
9 with me.
10 Q. It was brought up this morning that during the course of these
11 evictions sometimes violence would take place. Do you recall whether
12 this violence took place in -- in the process of executing a court order
13 to evict people from military apartments?
14 A. I can't remember that I would have that there was violence with
15 this. My problem was more with all these evictions from the military
16 apartments, that there was a contradiction between what Minister of the
17 Interior Jarnjak told me, and what Susak told me who was present and so
18 on. The violence I always been referring to has been in -- in connection
19 with the return of Serbs to their homes in the few cases when they have
20 been able to return than in the begin.
21 Q. And that would have been a subject that you addressed with the
22 minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, correct?
23 A. These were evictions from military. That is something that is in
24 my report. I think we have it here in the --
25 Q. Just -- I'm sorry.
1 A. -- in the reports.
2 Q. I agree with you. What I'm saying is you would have these
3 conversations about evictions from military apartments with Minister
5 A. Yes, and with Jarnjak.
6 Q. Yes. But the general issue of violence against Serbs, you had
7 those conversations primarily with the minister of the interior,
8 Mr. Jarnjak?
9 A. I had it also with Minister Susak. You must remember that we
10 were old colleagues. I had met him earlier in 1993, and I met him
11 without all these procedures on some occasions in Croatia.
12 Q. Now, in your notes of your meeting with Minister Susak, it's
13 mentioned that Minister Susak told you that 220 criminal proceedings were
14 undertaken concerning arson and looting.
15 A. Mm-hm.
16 Q. Is that what Minister Susak said?
17 A. If it is stated here, then, certainly.
18 Q. Okay. Did that indicate to you that Minister Susak acknowledged
19 that criminal prosecutions were necessary for illegal conduct
20 conducted -- or committed after Operation Storm?
21 A. Mm-hm, certainly. But not very interested in the matter as a
22 whole with the civilian side.
23 Q. Could that be because Minister Susak felt it was not part of his
24 portfolio to be prosecuting and --
25 A. I hope so, that he had a clear understanding of -- of portfolio
1 of his ministry and others.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, this might be a good time for a break.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Have you done with 65 ter 2710?
5 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that you wanted to tender that
7 into evidence?
8 MR. MISETIC: Ms. Mahindaratne tendered it this morning.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. It is part of the 92 ter
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have seen that. Yes, it would be P639,
12 although still marked for identification.
13 MR. MISETIC: I need to print out the list during the break, Your
14 Honours, because I don't have the numbers with me.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Since you used it and since Ms. Mahindaratne
16 tendered it, I think the status of P639 could already be changed in the
17 absence of any objections of any of the other parties in an exhibit.
18 We'll have a break and resume at ten minutes to 1.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, please proceed.
22 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mrs. Rehn, now I'd like to talk to you about your meeting with
24 Minister Jarnjak on 4 December 1995
25 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit P601 on the
1 screen, please. That's the one, right.
2 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, in your statement, you discuss your meeting with
3 Minister Jarnjak, and you say -- let me find the page for you.
4 At page 6, you say: "Jarnjak claimed that he did not have data
5 on humanitarian abuses, and it was clear to me that he did not want to
6 receive the information from us. Jarnjak also indicated that he was not
7 going to investigate the reports of mass graves."
8 Now, if we look at the notes, at paragraph 2, it's noted that:
9 "Minister Jarnjak replied that the security situation ..." -- I should
10 say section 2.
11 "Minister Jarnjak replied that the security situation has
12 normalised and criminal proceedings have been undertaken against
13 perpetrators of crimes commited, i.e., looting, arson," et cetera.
14 And then if we go to page 3, specifically about this issue about
15 him not having data on humanitarian abuses -- sorry, on page 2. I
16 apologise. I couldn't find it.
17 Page 2, paragraph -- or section 7, it says: "Regarding the
18 situation on the return of refugees, she raised her concern about many
19 administrative obstacles which did not facilitate the return of refugees.
20 She inquired whether data available on a number of returns.
21 "Minister Jarnjak mentioned did he not have any data on that
22 matter and did not receive any comments concerning human rights abuses
23 after the return of refugees. He recognised that the difficulties
24 occurring after their return are connected to problems existing between
1 So, is it fair to say that what Minister Jarnjak said at the
2 meeting was not that he had no data on humanitarian abuses; but, rather,
3 that he no data on humanitarian abuses against refugee who had returned
4 to the area?
5 A. Of course, you can put your words in that way. I think that we,
6 both of us, understand what was meant in the report and in my words.
7 Q. I'm asking, Mrs. Rehn, because --
8 A. Yes. And I'm just telling that he didn't have data on what I was
9 asking about, the returns and the humanitarian abuses around this; and
10 so, in that sense, it is an answer on the question.
11 Q. When you say, he didn't have --
12 A. It is written here. He didn't have the data.
13 Q. He didn't have the data on abuses occurring against people who
14 had returned. Is that correct?
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, that was not the answer. The
16 witness clearly answered the question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
18 Mrs. Rehn, you have understood, I take it, what Mr. Misetic is
19 concerned about. What matters exactly is did Mr. Jarnjak tell you he had
20 no data. If you could explain that, and refer to part of the notes you
21 consider relevant, then, please proceed.
22 THE WITNESS: I asked about the returnees; and as we talked about
23 them, he said that he don't have data. So it could be, of course, taken
24 as an overall that he is in possession of any kind of data, but it was
25 definitely with reference to the return of the refugees and human rights
1 abuses around these.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Meaning about around the return and not prior to the
3 return? I mean unrelated to the return, perhaps I should say.
4 THE WITNESS: I have, Your Honour, to say that I can't answer
5 this question because it's some time ago, and the notes taken by
6 Mr. Diakite are not very clear in this sense. But what I have as my
7 memory from those discussions was that he was not very much interested in
8 the problems created by the returns and also in the civilian casualties
9 in connection to Operation Storm.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
11 MR. MISETIC:
12 Q. With regard to the last portion of your answer, Mrs. Rehn, do you
13 have anything in the notes that would reflect that Mr. Jarnjak was not
14 interested in the civilian casualties in connection to Operation Storm?
15 Is there any reference you can give us in the notes?
16 A. No, only my head, and that is something that you can't just make
17 a reference to, unfortunately. But so much of the reports are based
18 on -- on discussions, on talks with people, because you know very well
19 that in the minutes of the meeting, you are not putting every, every word
20 in the minutes.
21 So that was the impression I had when I came out from that
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. MISETIC: Turning to the next page of these notes, please,
25 it's section 11.
1 Q. This relates to the statement in your statement that: "Jarnjak
2 indicated that he was not going to investigate reports of mass graves."
3 Paragraph 11 says: "The Special Rapporteur expressed her concern
4 on the situation of mass graves which should be investigated now or soon
5 after in the former Yugoslavia
6 sides should attend those events for investigation and monitoring, i.e.,
7 international observers for more impartiality and as to avoid any
8 confusion in the result.
9 "Minister Jarnjak explained that the parliament adopted a
10 legislation by which all information on war crimes should be forwarded to
11 the international war crimes Tribunal. He said that they will ensure all
12 necessary measures for more transparency in that matter."
13 MR. MISETIC: And then it continues on to the next page.
14 Q. It says: "The Special Rapporteur mentioned also that it is
15 important to preserve the dignity of those persons when opening the
16 graves and to facilitate the presence of religious authorities; i.e.,
17 bishop, orthodox priest. Minister Jarnjak fully supported the
18 suggestion, and add that so far only allegations on mass graves have been
19 reported against Croatia
20 international community was invited, and they await results from that
21 investigation on that matter. However, he pointed out that in the
22 liberated areas, they have indications of mass graves in some areas."
23 Could you point or tell us the basis for your statement that
24 Minister Jarnjak indicated that he would not investigate mass graves?
25 A. It was the overall impression I got from what he said. That is
1 also written in this paragraphs, that, okay, "There are perhaps mass
2 graves. There is the law that has been adopted by the -- by the
3 parliament of Croatia
4 court and the Tribunal. But direct actions, "Everybody is welcome to
5 come" and so on, but not exactly what he is going to do, and that is
6 lacking from these -- these minutes from this meeting. And that was the
7 impression I then got, and I was not alone on that. My -- my fellows
8 accompanying me at that meeting had exactly the same impression.
9 Q. According to the notes, it was you who had framed the issue as
10 one of whether the international observers would be allowed to
11 participate in the investigations of mass graves. Correct?
12 A. Yes. Due to these notes, yes.
13 Q. And so all Minister Jarnjak was doing was responding to you that,
14 yes, international observers would be allowed --
15 A. Mm-hm.
16 Q. -- to participate. Correct?
17 A. Mm-hm.
18 Q. And that the results of that investigation according to new
19 Croatian legislation should be forwarded to the war crimes Tribunal?
20 A. Yes, exactly what is said here.
21 Q. Now at page 3 of your statement --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you quoted that the investigation
23 should be forwarded; whereas, the text says "information," which is not
24 exactly the same, because it's exactly the issue raised by Mrs. Rehn,
25 which was what to do yourself, and perhaps to what extent to respond to
1 what others initiated. Otherwise, I would not have pointed that if it
2 was just a minor meaningless distinction between the two words.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
5 Q. On page 3 of your statement, you say -- referring now to your
6 7 November 1995
7 minister of the interior providing the results of investigations into
8 crimes in connection with Operation Storm. In the figures that were
9 quoted, only one Croatian soldier was mentioned as having been
10 investigated. Because of this, I did not believe the figures because we
11 had ample information to the contrary."
12 MR. MISETIC: If we could go back to 65 ter 2710, Mr. Registrar,
13 and page 14 of this document, please.
14 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, this is the page that you refer to in your
15 witness statement, and it -- at paragraph 35, it says, in the second
16 sentence: "On 18 October 1995
17 presented the results of the investigation of crimes committed in
18 connection with Operation Storm, according to the police -- according to
19 which, the police had resolved 25 or 41 registered cases of murder. The
20 police have arrested 13 people suspected of committing crimes in the
21 village of Gosici and in Varivode. According to the government, only one
22 Croatian army soldier was included among the suspects; whereas, all
23 others were civilians who wearing military apparel."
24 Now you interpreted that sentence to mean that the Croatian
25 minister of the interior said that only one Croatian army soldier was
1 mentioned as having been investigated in connection with crimes committed
2 after Operation Storm.
3 A. Yes, that's quite logical.
4 Q. Well, is it possible that the report actually refers to one
5 Croatian army soldier who was among the suspects for the crimes committed
6 in the village of Gosici
7 Croatian army soldier suspected of crimes -- concerning all crimes after
8 Operation Storm?
9 A. It is impossible for me to answer that. Of course, everything
10 could be possible. But this was something that human rights team had
11 paid a lot of attention to, so it's difficult for me to -- to believe
12 that they were not clear in this -- in this sentence.
13 Q. Well, this is not a sentence of the Croatian government. This is
14 a sentence written by the Secretary-General pursuant to your report.
15 A. Yes, yes. But it is based on my report.
16 Q. Now, earlier, we talked about the fact that Minister Susak told
17 that you 222 persons had been charged with burning and looting. Correct?
18 A. Mm-hm, yes.
19 Q. Yes. Minister Susak would have been referring to soldiers?
20 A. I would believe so. They have been charged, yes.
21 Q. Did you note any -- anything about the fact that, as of
22 7 November 1995
23 reporting that the Croatian authorities had only suspected one soldier
24 for all the crimes committed after Storm, and by 4 December 1995, the
25 minister of defence was telling you that the number was 222?
1 A. That was a number that we could not or I could not check. So it
2 was something that was told to me; and, of course, we had to take it as
3 something that was relevant. But these -- these differences between
4 these numbers, I don't think they are very important. The important is
5 the overall attitude that charges for militaries were not as popular as
6 for the civilians.
7 Q. Let's talk about that overall attitude. And just like we did
8 this morning, what I'm going to do, in the interests of time, is to show
9 you a series of additional reports by you and by the Secretary-General,
10 and then ask you some questions about that attitude.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Misetic, could I ask one
13 One of the questions Mr. Misetic put to you is that whether
14 Minister Susak would have been referring to soldiers, in relation to
15 the 222; and your answer is: "I would believe so. They have been
16 charged, yes."
17 What's the basis for your belief that he was referring to
19 THE WITNESS: Because he was not talking about any other groups
20 mostly than just the soldiers. He was very strong about this. He was in
21 charge of the defence people obeying the defence and the rules there, and
22 then the others were a mandate for other ministers like the interior and
23 so on.
24 But this is only something I believed, that it could refer to the
25 military. I don't have a relevant answer on that. It's my impression.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you because in your statement, you
2 express that you were criticised for focussing on soldiers rather than on
3 potential civilian perpetrators of these acts. Of course, I'm asking to
4 what extent you can reconcile this criticism, but at the same time
5 speaking about the relatively large number which you consider to be about
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, you are really putting now in a
8 thinking mode of what exactly was meant with this, because it is not
9 anything that is not confirmed by my staff that Minister Susak really was
10 not very pleased about the report, about anything that I had done.
11 So, in that sense, we -- we had all the time a feeling that he is
12 not interested in being very helpful to us regarding the military.
13 So now when are you taking this, that should be perhaps the most
14 logic that he referred perhaps to something else that than to military
15 when we took it as military. That's quite open, and I really must say
16 that this is something that is absolutely impossible for me to memorize.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Misetic --
19 THE WITNESS: I'm really sorry.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- perhaps there are objective data which gives us
21 an opportunity not to rely on logic in conversation, but rather on
22 objective data.
23 MR. MISETIC: There are a lot more witnesses to cross-examine,
24 Your Honour, so it's coming.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar --
2 Q. As I said, Mrs. Rehn, we will show you -- I will show you a
3 series of documents now, and ask for -- a few questions at the end.
4 MR. MISETIC: But if we could call up 65 ter 2365, it should be
5 Mrs. Rehn's report of 14 March 1996
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, 2365 is already marked for
7 identification as D669, but without the B/C/S translation.
8 MR. MISETIC: Yes, I'm sorry, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So I'm wondering whether it finally will be D669
10 with a translation, or whether you vacated that number and --
11 MR. MISETIC: Sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- that 2365 will --
13 MR. MISETIC: D669.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D669. So, then, Ms. Mahindaratne, there is no need
15 anymore to tender 2365.
16 But is there a translation meanwhile, or do you borrow that
17 from --
18 MR. MISETIC: It's an official UN document. I was not aware that
19 we had to translate those.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, we have a translation uploaded
21 of 2365, and I believe it has been given a MFI number P638 MFI. So I
22 leave it with you, Mr. President, as to which document you would prefer
23 to use. Our document has a translation.
24 MR. MISETIC: It's the same to me, Your Honour, so --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I then suggest since the Defence was first, it will
1 be D669 and that you borrow the translation from 2365, and that, Mr.
2 Registrar, that this P638 can be vacated.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
5 If we could go to page 26 of the report, please.
6 Q. At paragraph 104, you write: "Information provided by the
7 government of Croatia
8 proceedings have been instituted with respect to crimes and human rights
9 violations that were allegedly committed mostly against Croatian Serbs in
10 the aftermath of the military operations. However, many reported cases
11 of killings remain unresolved, and there is little evidence of trials
12 concerning acts of arson or looting being brought to a conclusion."
13 MR. MISETIC: And if we could call up -- I have the still. I
14 apologise if there are P numbers, but I have 65 ter 2820, which is a
15 report on the situation of human rights in the territory of the former
17 [Realtime transcript read in error "P460, MFI"].
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think, Mr. President, there's an error on
19 the transcript. It is recorded as "P460," I believe it is "P640."
20 MR. MISETIC: That's correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
22 MR. MISETIC: At paragraph -- let me see. This is, again, a
23 report by the Secretary-General, and it is passing along your periodic
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if I look at the transcript again, that "460"
1 is corrected into "460," instead of "640."
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. MISETIC: At page 33, please.
4 Q. Paragraph 127, the paragraph is in the context of the issue of
5 the property rights and the Croatian property law as an area of concern.
6 The last sentence says: "On the other hand, the government of Croatia
7 should be given credit for positive steps it has taken in cooperation
8 with international agencies to alleviate the humanitarian plight of
9 Croatian Serbs still residing in the form still Sectors West, North, and
10 South, many of whom are elderly."
11 If we go to page 37, paragraph 148, the second sentence begins:
12 "The Republic of Croatia has continuously engaged in constructive
13 cooperation with international entities including the Special Rapporteur
14 and the office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. Croatia
15 recent acceptance of the presence of an OSCE mission, which will pay
16 special attention to the question of minority rights, is another
17 demonstrations of this cooperation."
18 And then let me call up your January 1998 report, Mrs. Rehn,
19 which is P651 MFI'd. You will note this is the 14 January 1998 report
20 that you submitted.
21 MR. MISETIC: Page 9 of the report, please.
22 At paragraph 28, you say, in the middle: "The Special Rapporteur
23 wishes, once again, to thank the Croatian authorities for their
24 constructive cooperation throughout the duration of her mandate."
25 Then at paragraph 29, which a section entitled, "Security of
1 person and property in the former sectors": "After more than two years
2 of observing human rights trends in Croatia, the Special Rapporteur is of
3 the opinion that while more still needs to be accomplished, there are
4 good reasons for optimism for the future. When she first took up her
5 mandate in 1995, serious violations of human rights and humanitarian law
6 were reported to have occurred during and after Croatian military
7 operations in the summer of that year, when the government seized back
8 control over formerly Serb-held territory. These violations, many of
9 which evidently were carried out by Croatian soldiers, had involved
10 killings of civilians, massive looting and burning, and attacks on
11 fleeing civilians and refugees.
12 "According to information recently received from the government,
13 as of October 1997, a total of 5.580 criminal proceedings had been
14 carried out in relation to the military operations carried out in the
15 former Sectors North and South, of which 559 are at the investigative
16 stage, 3.785 are in the first instance proceedings, and 1.236 have been
17 brought through to final decisions."
18 MR. MISETIC: And then the next page, please.
19 Q. Paragraph 34 is talking about the situation in eastern Slavonia
20 In the middle of the paragraph, you write: "Prior to the conclusion of
21 the UNTAES mandate, on 15 January 1998
22 to encourage Croatian Serbs to remain in the region. However, the
23 widespread fear and uncertainty among members of the Serb population
24 reportedly led to a number of departures from the region, mainly for the
25 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, although it difficult to ascertain
1 whether such departures are intended to be permanent."
2 Mrs. Rehn, I have shown you some of the statements over the
3 course of 1995, 1996, and to January 1998. Is it fair to say that you
4 saw improvement that led to you say in your January 1998 report that
5 there were -- well, more still needed to be accomplished. There were
6 good reasons for optimism for the future.
7 A. Oh, yes, because I had never hesitated to give or to pay credit
8 to those steps that had been taken. I think it is much more important
9 then to also point out that those questions that still are open when you
10 also acknowledge the improvements and through my reports. And if I would
11 make report today about Croatia
12 So there was a clear development in direction to democracy. It
13 was on my recommendation they institute the Ombudsman institution. I was
14 very pleased about so many steps were taken. But, of course, we are
15 talking now about what happened during the Operation Storm and
16 immediately after. And, therefore, I have been forced to tell also very,
17 very brutal things about the situation. But improvement has been there,
18 as clearly stated in my reports.
19 Q. Okay. And just with respect to the statistics that you cited, I
20 know you have said in your statements that you never were able to verify
21 the statistics. But you don't have any recollection of ever having asked
22 for the underlying court files, to look at the court files in order to
23 investigate the numbers for yourself. Is that correct?
24 A. This is very important question, because I have asked it to --
25 from my myself, that did we, the team, ask for documents from court
1 procedures, and I cannot answer that question because I'm almost sure
2 that my team asked for it. But just, here, in the witness stand, I
3 cannot surely say it. So it is not only because of the lack of interest
4 from the officials of Croatia
5 even didn't ask for these documents forceful enough.
6 Q. Okay. Do you think, based on your experience as the Special
7 Rapporteur and the fact that you wrote many reports, do you think that if
8 you, in fact, had asked the Croatian government for such documents and
9 they didn't provide it to you, would that have been something that would
10 have been included in one of your reports?
11 A. Certainly, it would have been. It would have been included. So,
12 in had a sense, it is more likely that we didn't forcefully enough ask
13 for the documents.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Rehn.
15 I'd like to turn to the area of citizenship rights, page 7
16 and 8 - and I will try to finish this before we leave today -- 7 and 8 of
17 your statement.
18 You say, beginning on the bottom: "I have no doubt that the
19 practical administrative obstacles faced by the Serb refugees in
20 attempting to return were purposely crafted by the Croatian authorities
21 difficult and to discourage the Serbs from returning. I have no doubt
22 that the Croatian administration of the time did not readily welcome the
23 idea of the return of the Serb refugees who had fled as a consequence of
24 Operation Storm. Under the subheading, 'Humanitarian and social issues,'
25 I address the issue of denial of citizenship rights to long-term
1 residents of Croatia
2 First, do you recall which Serbs who were residents of Croatia
3 were denied citizenship?
4 A. Would you --
5 MR. MISETIC: Let me find --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Would you put your question to me again,
7 because I didn't get the point, I guess.
8 MR. MISETIC:
9 Q. Let me show you actually where this comes from. It's from that
10 last report that we just looked at.
11 MR. MISETIC: If we could go back to that, Mr. Registrar, P651.
12 Now, if we could go to the next page, please, and then if we
13 could go to page 11, please, and if we could scroll down.
14 Q. That portion of your statement comes from this portion of your
15 report of 1998 at paragraph 39 at the bottom. You are talking about
16 Eastern Slavonia
17 "Some 140.000 citizenship papers and 126.000 passports have been issued
18 to residents in the region," the region being Eastern Slavonia.
19 "However, concern remains over some 900 denials of citizenship pending
20 for many months ..." --
21 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to the next page.
22 Q. " ... in administrative tribunals which need to be effectively
24 On the issue of the citizenship, Croatia, as you say in your own
25 report, had, in fact, issued 140.000 citizenship papers to residents in
1 Eastern Slavonia
2 A. In even Slavonia
3 Q. And there was a problem with approximately 900 denials. Correct?
4 Are you aware of what the basis of the problem was in getting those 900
5 people citizenship?
6 A. What I have been especially talking about in my statements and in
7 my recalling, because I was not involved approximate Easter Slavonia, in
8 that sense, we had UNTAES administration and I thought that it would be
9 quite appropriate for me that just involve myself too much in what was
10 the administration there. Of course, I visited the area.
11 But my problem was the citizenships and to show, and we have
12 proved of the documents of those who left Sectors North and South during
13 Operation Storm, because many of them lost their papers, ID cards. There
14 were a lot of difficulties for them to just prove that they are citizens
15 of Croatia
16 about. I know there was hundreds of them waiting on the Hungarian side
17 to get the papers. They had to go to Belgrade to get some of the papers.
18 And it was practically very difficult for them when trying to get back
19 their property, because they had a 90 days limit within which they should
20 claim for property.
21 So all these were, so to say, attached to each other, and that is
22 what I mostly referred to in my written statement.
23 Q. We have three minutes.
24 A. Okay. Sorry. Let's make it quick.
25 Q. I am sorry for interrupting you, but I do want to finish this
1 topic today.
2 MR. MISETIC: If we could, Mr. Registrar, call up 1D40-0082.
3 Q. If you can tell me whether you know, yes or no, but are you aware
4 that in Croatia
5 previously, a persons citizenship was established by amongst other things
6 his birth records in his local registry office in his local town. Are I
7 aware of that?
8 A. Yes. And I know, too, that those who had overtaken Krajina for
9 that are period when they were born, children were born in the Krajina,
10 they often didn't have papers at all because it was not a registered
11 city -- region.
12 Q. This is under the citizenship law and the form a person would
13 fill out. And as you can see, the date of these rules wasn't established
14 in 1995, it was 8 January 1992
15 MR MISETIC: If we could scroll down, please.
16 Q. The record -- it says: The records on citizenship have been
17 entered in a register of citizens of the Registry office of, and in the
18 municipality of," et cetera.
19 And now if I could show you next document, which is 1D40-0098.
20 Mrs. Rehn, this is a protocol between Serbia and Croatia
21 If you look at it, it's protocol of takeover where the government of
23 benefit of the Court, the local registers that had been removed from
25 registers that were returned in 2003.
1 Can we go to the next page, please.
2 Including the town of Knin
3 gives you what years we're talking about.
4 Were you aware at the time you were preparing your reports that
6 birth records or other records necessary to establish citizenship?
7 A. In the material that you have, I have mentioned somewhere - I
8 can't find it now - that one of the obstacles was that they had to go to
10 Susak or Jarnjak.
11 Q. And my last question for today is: Having examined I assume as
12 part of your work as the Human Rights Rapporteur the fact that the
13 Serbian population left, does the fact that the authorities in Serbia
14 wound up in possession of hundreds of town registers of birth would that
15 indicate to that you there was a certain level of organisation to the
16 departure of the Krajina Serbs?
17 A. I don't think that I should make any kind of -- of estimates on
18 what was the truth. I know that there have been just a demand or
19 whatever from the Serb side from Serb leaders that you should leave, and
20 I know that President Tudjman asked the Serb population to stay. But I
21 have seen in so many other war zones in the world that whatever is told
22 you that, please stay, everything is okay. People don't believe it when
23 they are just taken by the mass psychosis that, I'm afraid something
24 terrible will happen.
25 So I think that both sides were not efficient enough or one side
1 was too efficient.
2 Q. Thank you Mrs. Rehn. I would tender, Your Honour, both of these
3 documents into evidence and I conclude for today.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document ID 1D40-0082 becomes
8 Exhibit number D686. Document ID 1D40-0098 becomes Exhibit number D687.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D686 and D687 are admitted into evidence.
10 Mr. Misetic, you said this was your last question for the day.
11 MR. MISETIC: Right.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What about tomorrow?
13 MR. MISETIC: We've reached agreement that I will finish by the
14 first session. The Cermak and Markac teams will take the second session
15 and that will leave us the full third session for re-direct and questions
16 from the Bench.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is more than sufficient, Mr. President.
19 I don't think I'll --
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, just so we're clear. For me, I'm
21 not sure of the exact timing, but I will have at least one hour, if not
22 an hour and a half. Just so the Court is aware of how much time I have
24 MR. KAY: To assist the Court, a number of matters have been
25 dealt with already by Mr. Misetic. So our issues are narrowing to under
1 half an hour at the moment.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So that means that we stay within the one hour and a
3 half for each session. Ms. Rehn, this is also important for you to know,
4 I would say.
5 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Because there is a fair chance that we'll conclude
7 your testimony tomorrow.
8 THE WITNESS: Thanks God. Or you're not the God.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. Apart from that, it is the parties, Mrs. Rehn,
10 who give this information. We will adjourn for the day. We will resume
11 tomorrow, Wednesday, the 16th of July, 9.00, in this same courtroom.
12 But I'd first like to instruct you, Mrs. Rehn, that you should
13 not speak about the testimony, whether already given or still to be
15 We stand adjourned.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th of July,
18 2008, at 9.00 a.m.