Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6493

 1                           Tuesday, 15 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Ms. Mahindaratne, I take it that it will be you who examines the

12     next witness.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you ready?

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, I am ready, Mr. President.  The

16     Prosecution called Elisabeth Rehn.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Usher, can you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Madam.

21             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you

23     make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,

24     and nothing but the truth.

25             The text will now be handed out to you by the usher.  May I

Page 6494

 1     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I solemnly declare that I will speak

 3     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 5                           WITNESS:  ELISABETH REHN

 6                           Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Rehn, you will first be examined by

 8     Ms. Mahindaratne who is counsel for the Prosecution.

 9             Ms. Mahindaratne, you may proceed.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Rehn.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   Could you please state your full name for the record?

14        A.   I'm Marta Elisabeth Rehn born in Finland.

15        Q.   Did you make a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, May I just intervene.  I hate to

17     ask the next question because it might not be considered not very polite,

18     but we have different dates of birth for you on the statement.  May I,

19     nevertheless, ask you to indicate which year it was.

20             THE WITNESS:  I think that this is a quite a good start in the

21     way that there is a sense of humour in this.  They were so nice when

22     interviewing me for the first time, they took away ten years of my age.

23     So the correct one is --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That answers my question.  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

Page 6495

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, did you make a statement to the Office of the

 4     Prosecutor on 13th and 14th October 2005?

 5        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 6        Q.   And, thereafter, on the 21st February 2007, did you make a

 7     further statement clarifying and providing additional information to your

 8     previous statement, which you signed on 3rd April 2008?

 9        A.   That is also correct.

10        Q.   Now, yesterday, did you examine both these statements?

11        A.   Yes, I did it.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number 5315

13     on the screen, please.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The Prosecution counsel is

15     kindly requested to speak into the microphone, preferably the long

16     microphone on the left side.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I hope that is clear.

18        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, in a moment, you will see on your screen a document,

19     and if you could identify it as -- as your statement of 2005.

20        A.   Yes.  This is quite correct.  This is -- this is the document we

21     are talking about.

22        Q.   Now, yesterday, when you examined your statements, you provided

23     two further changes --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm again sorry to interrupt, but on our left

25     screen, if we push the e-court button, I get a full blue screen.

Page 6496

 1             There we are.  It apparently has been fixed.  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, yesterday, when you examined your statements, you

 5     provided two further changes to your statement, and I'll -- so we don't

 6     waste much time, I will quickly read that out.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if you could take the statement

 8     to page 3.

 9        Q.   You could follow the screen, Mrs. Rehn.  Are you able to follow

10     the screen?

11        A.   I can do that.

12        Q.   You made a change to the first paragraph on page 3, the English

13     version, where it is stated that you saw bodies of people killed and

14     carcasses of animals.  You corrected it by saying that you did not see

15     bodies of people killed, and only carcasses of animals.  That's correct,

16     isn't it?

17        A.   This is totally correct, and the confusion is coming from the

18     fact that when I gave my first interview in 2005, I told about a lot of

19     things I had seen, not at least Kravica hill in Srebrenica with the

20     bodies, and then there was a confusion.

21        Q.   And then there was a further change you made, Mrs. Rehn, and that

22     is --

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If you could move, Mr. Registrar, to page 5 of

24     the English version.

25        Q.   And, there, counting from top, in paragraph 7, that is the

Page 6497

 1     paragraph from the bottom, the one before the last paragraph.  You refer

 2     to meeting President Tudjman on several occasions.  You wished to correct

 3     it as two occasions:  One in December 1995; and the second meeting was

 4     when you were the Special Rapporteur to the UN Secretary General.

 5             So these corrects were made yesterday.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   That is quite correct.

 7        Q.   And subject to those changes, do you find -- did you find the

 8     contents of both your statements to be -- to accurately reflect what you

 9     stated to the members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

10        A.   Yes.  I went through these documents still yesterday evening, and

11     there is nothing I could found that would not have been just in relation

12     to what I have been telling.

13        Q.   And are the contents true, to the best of your knowledge?

14        A.   Definitely, to the best of my knowledge.

15        Q.   And if you were asked the questions that you were asked of you by

16     the members of the Office of the Prosecutor again today in court, would

17     your responses be the same?

18        A.   Yes.  The contents will definitely be the same.  Perhaps wordings

19     can be a little bit different, but definitely the act, the meaning, and

20     the contents are the same.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I wish to tender --

22        Q.   Before that, if you could identify that -- you did identify that

23     statement on the screen as your first statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I wish to tender this document

Page 6498

 1     into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there seems to be no objections,

 3     Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P598.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P598 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if I could called

 8     number 5316, and that is the supplemental statement we just referred to,

 9     Mr. President, and if I could move that into evidence.  Since it is a

10     supplemental statement, Mr. President, it could be given perhaps a

11     subnumber -- I'm sorry.  That's not done here.

12        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, could you identify that this is the document on the

13     screen is the supplemental statement that you made?

14        A.   Yes, exactly.  There we even have the right date for my birth.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I wish to tender the statement

16     into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I take it that if the same questions were

18     put as to the accuracy with which the second statement reflects what you

19     said, whether it's in accordance with the truth, to the best of your

20     knowledge, whether you would answer if the same questions would be put to

21     you in the same way.

22             Then there appear to be no objections against admission into

23     evidence.

24             Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P599.

Page 6499

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P599 is admitted into evidence.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 4        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, when you provided the first statement, did you

 5     examine a number of documents, and did you provide explanations with

 6     regard to each of those documents in your first statement?

 7        A.   Yes.  There were -- was a lot of reports and documents produced

 8     during time, those two and a half year as I functioned as the Special

 9     Rapporteur on the human rights situation in the territory of former

10     Yugoslavia.  So there were documents both regarding Croatia and all the

11     other parts that I covered.

12        Q.   And now, yesterday, did you have the opportunity to examine

13     those -- those documents?

14        A.   Oh, yes.  I went through them again.

15        Q.   Were you satisfied that the contents of those documents were

16     correct and your explanations provided in your first statement with

17     regard to each of those documents was -- were accurate?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I have tendered 17 documents

20     under the 92 ter submission.  I wish to withdraw one document which has

21     already been tendered into evidence in a previous instance.  May I move

22     for the record, Mr. President, that is document number 17, the last

23     document, which is also where I made an application to add it to the

24     65 ter list.  That is an Secretary General's report, dated

25     21st December 1995, which has been tendered as P4777 already.  With the

Page 6500

 1     exception of that, may I move that the other 16 documents be tendered

 2     into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection against any of the 16 documents?

 4             Mr. Misetic.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believe we have tendered one

 6     of the other documents in the batch that we submitted last week, which

 7     is -- I think it's number 10 on the list, which is also 1D33-0336 and was

 8     tendered by the Gotovina Defence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Otherwise, we have no objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So we are back from 17 now to 15.  May I suggest

12     that Mr. Registrar will put the 15 documents on a list and provisionally

13     assign numbers to them, so that we'll then under those numbers admit them

14     into evidence.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, with regard to the 15

16     documents, there is one document where I have requested Court -- made an

17     application to add it to the 65 ter list.  That is document on the 92 ter

18     submission numbered 16.  That is letter sent by United Nations High

19     Commission for Human Rights To the president of the Republic of Croatia,

20     dated 2nd October 1995.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take that since there are no objections

22     against admission into evidence, that there were no objections against

23     adding this document to the 65 ter list?

24             MR. MISETIC:  That's correct.  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 6501

 1             Then, Mr. Registrar, you're invited to proceed as I suggested.

 2             Ms. Mahindaratne.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             Mr. President, for the record, may I also make an application

 5     that document number 4312, that is the 65 ter number, be admitted under

 6     seal.  I could -- if an explanation is required, I could explain in

 7     private sessions.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection against this.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  I'm not sure what document we're referring to.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Those are the minutes of the meeting between

11     the witness and members of the Croatian government and international

12     bodies.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the 9th of October, 1995, Ms. Mahindaratne.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps we go briefly into private session, so

16     you can explain what reason that might have been.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  yes, Mr. President.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6502

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I read the summary of the

14     witness's 92 ter submission.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that you have explained to Mrs. Rehn what

16     the summary is for.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Ms. Elisabeth Rehn was the United Nations

20     Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights for the situation on

21     the territory of former Yugoslavia from September 1995 to January 1998.

22     In this capacity, she visited the Krajina following Operation Storm.  She

23     conducted meetings with members of the Croatian government, including the

24     president of the Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman; the Minister of

25     Defence, Gojko Susak; and the Minister of the Interior, Ivan Jarnjak,

Page 6503

 1     where crimes committed by members of the Croatian forces and the

 2     potential for the Serb population to return to the region were discussed.

 3     She inquired from representatives of the government of the Republic of

 4     Croatia regarding measures taken to prevent and investigate crimes and

 5     received their responses.  Mrs. Rehn reported her findings to, inter

 6     alia, the United Nations General Assembly and the United Nations Security

 7     Council.

 8             Mrs. Rehn was a member of the parliament of Finland from 1979 to

 9     1995, the minister of Defence from 1990 to 1995, and presidential

10     candidate in 1994 and 2000.  In January 1998, she was appointed to the

11     United Nations Special Representative -- I'm sorry.  She was appointed as

12     the United Nation's Special Representative to the Secretary-General in

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina and held that appointment until 1999.

14             That concludes the summary, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number 309,

18     please.

19             Mr. President, may I request that I be permitted to give -- allow

20     the witness to go through hard copies.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems very practical.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Thank you.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

24        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, if you wish to go through the hard copies, it's at

25     tab 3 of your binder.  The tabs are marked.

Page 6504

 1             Now, when you compiled reports, Mrs. Rehn, on situation in

 2     Croatia, you received responses from the -- the Croatian government.  Is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   That's quite correct.

 5        Q.   And is this document such a response submitted to you by the

 6     Croatian government?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I tender this document into

 9     evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P600.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P600 is admitted into evidence.

14             Ms. Mahindaratne, I see that on your witness P141 list, you refer

15     to witness statement P141, which could create some confusion since P141

16     looks as if it was an exhibit number, although it's clear that you did

17     not intend this to be an exhibit number.  If you would make that

18     Prosecution witness or even the name of the witness, since there are no

19     protective measures.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will do that, Mr. President.  I apologise.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document 4351,

23     please.

24        Q.   And, Mrs. Rehn, first, I'd like to look at -- I'd like to you

25     look at your statement while the document is being brought up on the

Page 6505

 1     screen, and your statement is at tab 1.

 2             Could you follow it.  In page 5 of your statement, if I could

 3     take to you paragraph 5 -- I'm sorry, paragraph 4.

 4        A.   Mm-hm.

 5        Q.   And from that point up to page 6, paragraph 5, you referred to a

 6     meeting you had with President Tudjman, Mr. Jarnjak, and Minister Susak.

 7             Now, the document I'd like you to look at are the minutes.  It's

 8     on the screen.  If you wish to look at the hard copy, it's at

 9     tab number 3 -- I'm sorry, tab number 11 of your binder.

10             Are these the minutes containing a report of those meetings?

11        A.   Yes, they are.

12        Q.   Now, who compiled these minutes?

13        A.   You can see on the screen or I can see or everybody can see that

14     I had with me on the meetings Roman Werocevski [phoen] from the Centre

15     for Human Rights Representing the commission that always follow me; and

16     then for the Croatian human rights office, Diakite Mamadi, and he was the

17     one, Mr. Mamadi, who always made the minutes when he was travelling with

18     us.  So these minutes are made by him.

19        Q.   Now, did you meet these individuals, the president and the

20     minister, at one meeting or in separate meetings?

21        A.   It was always separate meetings.  It's the best way you're doing

22     it, also the practical way, because it is really difficult to get

23     presidents and ministers together at the same time.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if we could move to the next

25     page -- I'm sorry.  It's a page after that, page number 3.  That is the

Page 6506

 1     ERN 77.  That's correct.  That's the one.

 2        Q.   Now, I'd like, Mrs. Rehn, if you could focus on

 3     paragraph number 10.  Now this is -- this refers to your meeting with

 4     Mr. Jarnjak.

 5        A.   Oh, oh, oh, oh.

 6        Q.   I'm referring to the document on the screen.

 7             If you could just look at paragraph number 10, there is a

 8     discussion about illegal and forcible evictions from military apartments.

 9     And under paragraph number 10, the third paragraph it reads like this:

10     "Asked about the obligation of the Ministry of Interior and especially

11     why the civilian police cannot prevent violence and assaults committed in

12     this matter, Minister Jarnjak mentioned that the civilian police have

13     always been present and did everything within their authority and

14     competence.  He mentioned that in forcible evictions, judicial sanctions

15     are required.  However, if the perpetrators are military men, only the

16     military police is competent and they do not have any authority to

17     intervene."

18             Now, do you recall that statement being made by Mr. Jarnjak?

19        A.   Oh, yes, I remember.

20        Q.   Now, that same day, you met the Minister of Defence, Mr. Susak.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could move down to

22     the page with ERN number 7185.  I know it's difficult to go by the ERN

23     number.  It's just that the page numbering is a little messed up.  If we

24     could go to the top of the document, you could follow that.  Yes.  That

25     page, yeah.

Page 6507

 1        Q.   Now, from this page onwards, you have the minutes of your meeting

 2     with Mr. Susak.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  He didn't like me at all, and my reports.

 4        Q.   Did he inform you as to why he did not like your reports?

 5        A.   Hmm.  It was because of that he thought that we have been too

 6     much focussing on the military approach instead of looking into all the

 7     criminal acts that had been done by civilians, and also what has happened

 8     before my time as Special Rapporteur.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Now if we could move to the next page.

10        Q.   And, there, under paragraph 7, it seems that the same issue, that

11     of illegal eviction from military apartments, has been discussed with

12     Mr. Susak.  Now, was his response on this issue consistent with what

13     Mr. Jarnjak told you; that is, that only the military police could be

14     utilized to resolve this situation, or was it contradictory?

15        A.   It was contradictory in the sense that Minister Jarnjak made it

16     clear that the civilian police cannot interfere when it is a military

17     eviction; but, again, according to Minister Susak, he made it quite clear

18     that there must be a court order that they cannot force anyone to leave.

19     And, so, they need a special request from the court, and the courts are

20     responsible to deal with all complaints.

21             But then --

22        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, do you recall if, in fact, Mr. Susak confirmed that

23     civilian police could not intervene at this stage, or if he, in fact --

24     did he address that at all?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

Page 6508

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I have never done this before, but the

 2     relevance of this line of question escapes me on evictions for military

 3     personnel in November of 1995, so if we could get at least a proffer as

 4     to what the relevance of this inquiry is.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, The relevance is that we have

 7     had led a lot of evidence here about the ability of the civilian police

 8     to interfere with the military when certain acts of violence are

 9     committed, you know.  It is -- if you go back it Mr. Jarnjak's minutes

10     regarding Mr. Jarnjak's discussion, the reference is to violence and it

11     is not just eviction.  The reference is to violence perpetrated by

12     military personnel.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Then I have a standing objection to this.  This

14     requires going into Croatian law on who owns the military apartments.

15     There is an entire procedure.  As a matter of fact, it is in the

16     documents she has tendered, a responses from the Croatian government

17     outlining all of the laws, which is completely different than a security

18     situation generally in a territory, which is what was discussed

19     previously.  But she can use her time as she wishes, but we have a

20     standing objection to the relevance of who has ownership to military

21     apartments and who is responsible under the law for conducting an

22     eviction from a military apartment.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I don't wish to waste time

25     since I have finish this.  I will make arguments.  The document is before

Page 6509

 1     the Chamber.  I will move on.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 4        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, let me take you to your -- the minutes of your meeting

 5     with Mr. Tudjman.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And that is, if could you go back,

 7     Mr. Registrar, to page bearing ERN number 7183.

 8        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, you have described this meeting and your

 9     conversation with Mr. Tudjman already in your statement.  Do you confirm

10     that this -- these are the minutes of that meeting?

11        A.   Oh, yes.

12        Q.   And if you could go to the next page, I'd like to draw your

13     attention, Mrs. Rehn, to the paragraph numbered 6 where it is states,

14     noted that:  "The Special Rapporteur commented that a peaceful solution

15     is most important even if there is so much hatred and distrust among

16     people.  Therefore, the protection of all human rights of Serbs should be

17     guaranteed, and justice is a basic human rights.  A fair trial should be

18     guaranteed and justice made without delay for those who have been accused

19     for looting and arson, to demonstrate that the judiciary is functioning.

20     She mentioned the situation in Kuplensko camp, inquiring whether the

21     return of all refugees would take some time."

22             And then there is a discussion between you and Mr. Tudjman.  And

23     then under paragraph numbered 7, the second paragraph, Mr. Tudjman goes

24     on addressing you:  "He pointed out the goodwill of Croatia by referring

25     to a possible decree on amnesty (which already created some resistance)

Page 6510

 1     that trials will be initiated for those accused only for war crimes and

 2     not armed rebellion.  According to the president, this decision is not a

 3     positive step towards normalization of..."  -- Is, I'm sorry.

 4             "According to the president, this decision is a positive step

 5     towards the normalization of relations between Croatia and Serbia."

 6             Now, Mrs. Rehn, you, yourself, in some of your reports call for a

 7     general amnesty for the former members of the combatants of the

 8     so-called RSK.

 9             Now, could you explain when the international community asked for

10     a general amnesty, as it is also stated here, what exactly were you

11     asking for?  Was it amnesty against prosecution of crimes, or amnesty --

12             MR. MISETIC:  This is leading the witness, Your Honour.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No.  I haven't finished my question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the leading part is there already

15     apparently.

16             MR. KEHOE:  That's right.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If you could please rephrase.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Well, Mrs. Rehn, could you explain to Court what that amnesty

20     was, the general amnesty that the international community was calling

21     for?

22        A.   It is quite clear that the international community was definitely

23     not asking for an amnesty for criminals, for criminal acts and war crimes

24     even, but what we asked for was an amnesty so that people whoever side

25     they represented were not afraid of returning back home again.  That was

Page 6511

 1     especially important in the Croatian -- of the Serbs who been leaving

 2     the -- the Krajina region, and that they are not afraid of being -- being

 3     just taken in prison when they are returning back home again, if they can

 4     return back home.

 5             And this is what was meant by the whole international community.

 6     We discussed it a lot, that an amnesty is important.  But if you only

 7     point out those names they were some hundreds who had got amnesty, then

 8     it is creating a fear with the others that, "If I'm not on that list,

 9     what will happen to me," even if they were ordinary combatants obeying

10     orders.

11        Q.   Now, at your meeting with Mr. Tudjman, he says that an amnesty

12     was being considered for those -- for -- and it says:  Trials will be

13     initiated for those accused only for war crimes and not armed rebellion."

14             So did you understand Mr. Tudjman to be speaking of that same

15     type of amnesty that the international community was referring to?

16        A.   Yes, definitely.  I think that he had a very good intention in

17     this; but when you look then what it will lead to and the fears that

18     people had, it was not in that sense the correct way of doing this.  So,

19     therefore, we warned about this and the international community asked for

20     the general amnesty; of course, excluding criminals.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I tender this document into

22     evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

24             Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P601.

Page 6512

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P601 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I just want -- wish to point out that document

 3     is, in fact, included in the 92 ter submission, Mr. Register, so that

 4     there won't be any duplicity in assigning numbers.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Registrar, the list is back to 14.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document 4365,

 8     please.

 9        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, if you wish to look at the hard copy, it's at tab 12.

10             Now, in your statement, you refer to sending a letter to the

11     foreign minister of Croatia, inquiring about the -- an investigation into

12     the incident that occurred in Grubori on 25th August 1995.

13             Now, if you could look at the document which is on the screen or

14     the hard copies, this is a document, a letter that you sent?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if I could -- if we could go to page 2 of

17     the English -- English document.

18        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, if I could just take your attention to paragraph 3, on

19     the first page of the letter, you write:  "With regard to the reported

20     investigation of the Grubori case, it is mentioned in the recent report

21     by the government of the Republic of Croatia on the implementation of

22     Security Council Resolution 1019, 1995, that the site of the crime was

23     inspected by police on the same day on which it was reported by the

24     UN Human Rights Action Team on 25 August 1995,(page 8).

25             "Furthermore, General Cermak stated in an interview with

Page 6513

 1     UN personnel on 26 August, that the Croatian authorities reached the

 2     village and took care of the people on the evening of 25th August.  He

 3     also remarked in a letter to the UN, dated 31 August, that he personally

 4     visited the hamlet the following day."

 5             Now what was the basis of that information?  From where did you

 6     gather that information?

 7        A.   This was the information I got from my own staff, the United

 8     Nations Human Rights staff visiting the place and others within UNCRO.

 9     So it was discussions, it was reports that were given, and personal

10     visits by those people.

11        Q.   And who informed you about the statement Mr. Cermak had made

12     about this matter?

13        A.   That is something I definitely can't remember who was the person,

14     because, as you know, a Special Rapporteur is working with a team of

15     people who are telling what has happened there, what they have followed

16     up; and then we are making the conclusions out of this.  And,

17     unfortunately, I don't have that, that information, who exactly was the

18     person in our team.

19        Q.   If I could take you to the next page, Mrs. Rehn.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if you could move to

21     page 2, both B/C/S and the English.

22        Q.   There, under the paragraph numbered 2, there's a list of

23     registration numbers of vehicles, as being vehicles that were observed in

24     the vicinity of Grubori on 25th August 1995.

25             Now, from where did you get those numbers?

Page 6514

 1        A.   It is exactly the same, that the UN team of -- from the UNCRO and

 2     our people, the human rights office people, had been watching this.  They

 3     were present there, and they collectively told this during an information

 4     meeting to me.

 5        Q.   And did you ever receive a response from the Croatian government

 6     identifying to whom those vehicles belonged to at the time or who used

 7     those vehicles?  Did you get a response to this inquiry?

 8        A.   Unfortunately, I got a lot of answering letters to different

 9     cases, and I'm very grateful for the way that the Croatian government

10     acted in this.  But this specific case was something I never could get

11     more than around that.  Investigations are still going on.  And that was,

12     of course, a little bit worrying with regard to the fact that they could

13     give exact dates like the register numbers of the vehicles and at which

14     hour what happened; and so on, not to mention the very -- very odd

15     UN meeting that are being called for, so that every person from Grubori

16     almost was away from -- from the village.

17             I not only requested from Minister Granic about this, but also

18     from his staff that I met now and then, and nobody could give me a

19     relevant answer.

20        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, to your knowledge, during your tenure as Special

21     Rapporteur, are you aware that your office or any party ever received a

22     satisfactory response from the Croatian government or the Croatian

23     authorities about an investigation into the Grubori incident?

24        A.   No, unfortunately not.  They didn't receive because that was an

25     ongoing story.  One could, of course, ask that why just one very sad

Page 6515

 1     incident when there were so many, but my method of working was that the

 2     individuals, the human rights or the individuals, were the most

 3     important.  So even one single case should have a proper answer, and we

 4     never got it.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I move to tendered this

 6     document into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there appear to be any objections,

 8     Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P602.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P602 is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             May I call up document 2566, please.

14        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, that document is not in your tab.  You will probably

15     see it on the screen in a moment?

16        A.   Okay.

17        Q.   Now, in the document we just looked at, you -- in that first

18     paragraph I read out to you, it was stated that Mr. Cermak had remarked

19     in a letter to the UN, dated 31st August, that he personally visited the

20     hamlet the following day.

21             Now, are you -- have you seen this document before?

22        A.   No, never.

23        Q.   You refer to a letter written by Mr. Cermak to the UN regarding

24     his visit to the Grubori area the following day.  At the time, was a copy

25     of that letter shown to you, or did anybody inform that you such a letter

Page 6516

 1     was written?

 2        A.   It was informed that there was a letter.  Of course, I can't --

 3     if I'm just sticking to the truth, I can't remember that it would have

 4     been shown to me.  But at least I never got a copy, and I can't recall

 5     that I would have seen it.

 6        Q.   Now, in this document, Mr. Cermak describes -- provides a report

 7     of the incident.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if you could move the next page.

 9        Q.   In the last paragraph, Mr. Cermak reports as this:  "I personally

10     visited the area the following day and convinced myself of the

11     truthfulness and the course of the incidents in question."

12             And I just want to point that out because that is what you had

13     reported in your letter to the minister of foreign affairs.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may of move this document into

15     evidence, please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Since I hear of no objections, Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P603.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P603 is admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number

21     5317, please.

22        Q.   Now, while the document is coming up, Mrs. Rehn, if I could just

23     take to you your statement, the 2005 statement.  At page 8, paragraph 5

24     you refer to two letters, where you say:  "In the Secretary-General's

25     report ER/2, paragraph 28, there is an reference to letters written by

Page 6517

 1     the high commissioner for human rights to President Tudjman with respect

 2     to the return of the Serbs being prevented by serious violations of human

 3     rights together with executive and legislative measures.  I am familiar

 4     with both those letters, and I produce a copy of the letter dated

 5     18 August 1995.

 6             Now, the other letter was not available at the time.  Do you

 7     recognise document on the screen?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Is that the other letter, dated 2nd October 1995, that you

10     referred to in this paragraph --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.    -- in your statement?

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I tender this document into

14     evidence, and it is part of the 92 ter submission.  At the end of the

15     day's sessions, I will inform Mr. Registrar as to what documents were

16     tendered through the court.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because it reduces the size of the list to 13

18     now.  I wonder whether we ever come to zero.

19             Any objection.

20             MR. MISETIC:  I have no objection, Your Honour.  I just want to

21     the note for the record that I need those numbers, so that I can conduct

22     the cross-examination and refer back to them.  We'll figure out during

23     the break how I'm going to refer to these documents.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  As always, the breaks are more busy than what

25     happens this Court.

Page 6518

 1             Mr. Registrar, do you think the list, which is now reduced to 13,

 2     could be produced after the break.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Absolutely, Your Honours, and this exhibit

 4     becomes P604.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P604 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That concludes examination-in-chief,

 8     Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

10             Having the numbers only after that break, would that cause you

11     major problems at this moment, Mr. Misetic?

12             MR. MISETIC:  It won't be a major problem if I could just get the

13     Court's indulgence if I fumble around a bit trying to find the right

14     document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We will show the same patience as we usually do.

16     Whether that is patient enough is still to be seen.

17             Mrs. Rehn, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Misetic who is

18     counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, good morning.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   I would like to start by taking you to the 4 December 1995

24     meeting that you had with President Tudjman which is, I believe, at

25     page 5 of your first statement.  And you, in your statement, make several

Page 6519

 1     characterizations about President Tudjman during that meeting.  You say,

 2     in your statement:  "I remember telling Tudjman that the perpetrators of

 3     crimes ..." -- I'm sorry.  It starts above that.

 4              "My impression of President Tudjman when I spoke to him on more

 5     than one occasion was that he was quite detached whenever we tried to

 6     speak about the Serbian refugees returning to the Krajina.  He was not

 7     interested in that particular subject.  In the minutes, it was recorded

 8     and I remember that Tudjman suggested that to punish the perpetrators of

 9     crimes in Operation Storm would cause problems, and he was clearly not

10     interested in punishing anyone.  He indicated that in the main the

11     perpetrators were civilians and made no reference to crimes being

12     committed by the military.  In effect, he was trying to protect the good

13     name of the Croatian army."

14             And then the last paragraph is:  "I remember telling Tudjman that

15     the perpetrators of crimes, like looting and arson, should be dealt with

16     quickly to show the judicial system was working.  Tudjman responded by

17     talking about the crimes that were committed by the Muslims on the

18     Croats.  In effect, he was not interested in what I was saying.  He was

19     on the one hand trying to justify what had happened by talking about

20     crimes committed against Croats elsewhere or during another time, and I

21     clearly got the impression after talking to him on several occasions that

22     there was no political will to punish the perpetrators of crimes

23     committed during Operation Storm."

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I point out that there was

25     an amendment to that.

Page 6520

 1             MR. MISETIC:  I was about to do that, Your Honour.  I was just

 2     waiting for the translation to finish.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, you are -- yes.  Now your comment

 4     appears on screen.  I was listening to the French channel.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm about to make -- I just waiting

 6     for the translation to finish, and then I was going to point that out.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, you have already point out for us this morning

11     that where in the statement it says you spoke to him on several

12     occasions, that's actually two occasions?

13        A.   Mm-hm.

14        Q.   Okay.  And it is fair to say that these impressions were then

15     formed from that meeting on the 4th of December, 1995.  Is that correct?

16        A.   Absolutely.

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   It was quite a long meeting.

19        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, we have the audiotape.  I don't know if you're aware

20     that President Tudjman taped all his conversations.  We are going to play

21     for you - I believe it is a 22 minute meeting - the entire meeting, and

22     I'd ask to you listen closely and try to note in as you listen where you

23     made or where these impressions were formed.  And you'll see a transcript

24     also as we go along.

25             MR. MISETIC:  If I could have that, Mr. Registrar.  I also have a

Page 6521

 1     transcript in hard copy for the witness, so that she can make notations

 2     or refer to the specific portions of the conversation.

 3        Q.   And then after we're done, I will take you back to your statement

 4     and ask you to identify where in the conversations you believe

 5     President Tudjman made such assertions.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Can I also ask if there is a copy available of

 7     the transcript for us.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  In e-court.

 9             I have it call it up.  I'm sorry.  It is 1D40-0087.

10                           [Audiotape played]

11             "Yes.  The day before yesterday, very late in the evening, after

12     a very interesting, very useful tour around the territory of the former

13     Yugoslavia, so I have learned a lot.  Everything is not nice, what I have

14     learned, unfortunately.  But I have been very well received all over, and

15     I believe that the atmosphere is getting very open now."

16             "You had discussions with my people in Croatian already?"

17             "I have had with just internal affairs with social welfare, and I

18     am very pleased that there is a possibility to meet with my former

19     colleague, Defence Minister Susak, on the airport, because I'm leaving

20     directly from here to Rome to start with and then back home."

21             "Have you been already in Sarajevo or Belgrade?"

22             "I was -- I was last time.  Now my tour was really going to Banja

23     Luka to Pristina to Mostar; and, yesterday, I went to East Slavonia,

24     Sector East, and that's something that I had find very important, that

25     the -- hopefully good agreement can be fulfilled to all its parts."

Page 6522

 1             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Dear Madam, as you stated,

 2     unfortunately some things could not be done.  But you must keep in mind

 3     that the things that happened in the years during the dissolution of

 4     Yugoslavia during the Yugoslav Communist Serb aggression and everything

 5     that happened up until these agreements, first the Washington Agreement,

 6     the Croatian Muslim agreement, and the Dayton now, that this was one of

 7     the most complicated world crisis, and that it is important that we get

 8     out of this crisis in order to be able to truly dedicate ourselves to

 9     humanitarian issues and to the removal of all factors which caused people

10     to suffer, which caused people from those areas, and in general which

11     caused such an abnormal suffering.  "Now we are after all on the road to

12     that after the Dayton Accords and hopefully after the signing in Paris

13     towards the normalisation of our relations which will enable us to deal

14     with these issues that you and your delegation are focussing on."

15             "You have not been able to see nice things during your visit.

16     However, it should be borne in mind that what has happened in the years

17     after the dissolution of Yugoslavia with the Yugo-Communist Serb

18     aggression and everything after, first of all, the Washington Agreements

19     between the Croats and the Muslims in Bosnia, and now recently the Dayton

20     Agreements, does represent one of the most complicated local crisis.

21     What is essential now is to leave this crisis behind to resolve it, so

22     that we can devote ourselves to humanitarian issues, to the elimination

23     of everything that has caused so much suffering for all the people in the

24     region, to get out, out of this abnormal, truly abnormal situation.

25     Nevertheless, now, after the Dayton Agreements and hopefully after the

Page 6523

 1     signing of all of documents in Paris, we will be on the way towards

 2     normalisation, and then we can devote ourselves fully to the issues which

 3     are your concern."

 4             "Mr. President, I am very much supporting your thoughts in this,

 5     because I have been all the time stating that I hope that in my work, I

 6     can come more away from just bookkeeping on events that, it should be

 7     more a question of conclusions of recommendations of how we can face the

 8     future and just work together for better understanding of human rights,

 9     instead of just telling that those were murdered there, those were

10     looted, those were -- their houses were burnt up, and they are in mass

11     graves.  We should come over this situation."

12             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is precisely the thought that

13     I wanted to express myself.  We in Croatia wanted to avoid everything

14     that took place, and we propose that after Tito, this Yugoslav crisis by

15     peaceful means on a confederal basis.  We were faced with everything that

16     we were; therefore, Croatia and then Bosnia suffered such an aggression I

17     don't know if you visited Vukovar or not, but a third of Croatia was

18     destroyed.  Four hundred thousand Croats, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks,

19     were forced out of their homes, and naturally people were murders.  It is

20     it understand that in the course of the liberation of these areas, on the

21     Croatian side it was also impossible to constrain the fighting to

22     fighting in gloves.  Therefore, first of all, the Yugo-Communist army and

23     the Serbs committed terrible crimes in such an aggression aimed at

24     creating Greater Serbia.  And later in the liberation of these areas, it

25     was also impossible to prevent people who had suffered and who were now

Page 6524

 1     returning to those areas from committing acts of revenge and stupidity

 2     such as destroying homes and so forth.  Therefore, it is more important

 3     now to forget all of this as soon as possible and to build normal

 4     relations among people, among nations; rather, even though it is

 5     necessary to punish individuals for war crimes, if we went to this

 6     breadth, if we were to approach this issue so broadly, this would mean a

 7     new deepening of mistrust and conflict.  So it is more important that we

 8     develop a new order and establish trust."

 9             [Previous translation continues] ... "which I also wanted to

10     express.  We in Croatian also wanted to avoid such developments; and

11     after Tito, we wanted to propose.  We proposed a solution of the crisis

12     by peaceful means on a confederal basis.  However, later on, we were

13     faced with everything that we suffered in Croatian.  And later on in

14     Bosnia, we suffered such a terrible aggression.  I don't know whether you

15     have been to Vukovar or not."

16             "Oh, yes.  I was yesterday.  I could see in my own eyes."

17             "One third of Croatian was destroyed.  More than 400.000 people

18     were expelled, Croats, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks; and many of them also

19     lost their lives.  And in the process of liberation in these areas by

20     Croatian forces, one couldn't remain just at war.  War is not conduct in

21     the gloves anywhere in the world.  First of all, it was the Yugoslav

22     Communist and the Serbian aggression which was the cause of horrendous

23     crimes in the area.  In their aggression, their aim is to create a

24     Greater Serbia.  Later on, during the liberation, of course we couldn't

25     fully restrain our people.  There were many people there who suffered

Page 6525

 1     loss of human life, loss of their relatives, sacrifices, loss of

 2     property, and so forth.  Some of them resort to acts of revenge, I mean

 3     to stupid things such as destruction of homes and so forth."

 4             "So stupid."

 5             "What is important, however, is to forget all this, and turn to

 6     normalisation of relations among people, among nations in the region.

 7     The -- certain individuals, of course, have to be punished for the acts

 8     they have committed.  But if we go too broadly in this respect, I think

 9     this would only deepen the distrust and possibly lead to new conflicts.

10     So what is important I believe that we should turn our attention fully to

11     the establishment of a new order in the region."

12             "Yes.  I believe that it's important really to not the look too

13     much in what has been going on.  Of course, it is very difficult to

14     forget when you have lost all what you are believing in, to your love, to

15     your relatives, your home, and even your homeland.  But perhaps we should

16     more look at not at the revenge, more at the justice and the truth,

17     because there is always a time when the truth is coming -- coming true,

18     and the sooner the better.  I have been especially concerned during this

19     tour with just questions of all the return of refugees.  With the missing

20     people, that seems to be a very difficult question because that is

21     something that every person wants to know what happened.  Even if you

22     have the message that he is killed or she is killed, it's better than not

23     to know.  And then, of course, just even the mental health of the

24     children, because you have the future, that's very important.  So there

25     have been many things that I have been concerned about, and sometimes I

Page 6526

 1     have had the feeling that perhaps there is not the real understanding

 2     well in words, but perhaps not in action.  And I'm now not talking about

 3     Croatia, I'm talking for the whole territory.  Because if we are going to

 4     implement the agreement from Dayton, there must be the respect for these

 5     rights.  You know, Mr. President, that I'm a member of the European

 6     Parliament, and for us it is industrial important that Croatia who has

 7     been in some way in the lead, though, in the democratic procedure for

 8     this -- left from the former Yugoslavia, that you can implement as soon

 9     as possible the normal democracy and justice, human rights."

10             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Rest assured that Croatian

11     authorities are absolutely focussed in that sense.  You see, consenting

12     to the Dayton Accords, which means consenting it a peaceful solution

13     concerning the liberation of the occupied territories of Eastern

14     Slavonia, was -- was received with great dissatisfaction by a significant

15     number of the Croatian public, who were saying "Why did we proceed to

16     liberate Eastern Slavonia with military forces as we had done in the case

17     of Western Slavonia, Knin, and so on," because such a huge amount of

18     hatred and distrust have accumulated.  But assessing that peace was of a

19     greater importance, and we didn't want all the Serbs to leave.  We wanted

20     to establish relations based on trust, and based on our experiences in

21     Knin where we also didn't want all the Serbs to leave.  Therefore, the

22     Croatian government will truly attempt to act within the framework of a

23     peaceful solution in the liberated territories, guaranteeing civil

24     rights, and especially resolving issues regarding missing persons which

25     is painful and which is accepted with great difficulty by the people even

Page 6527

 1     when they know that the victims are dead..." --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... I did not hear

 3     French translation on channel 5 of the last portion of the recorded

 4     interview.  I'm just wondering how to proceed because I'm switching from

 5     one channel to another, and I do not exactly where it started.  I suggest

 6     that, at this moment, we continue to hear the recording, and that during

 7     the break, we'll verify to what extent the French translation is

 8     provided.

 9             Then how to resolve that is another matter because I would not

10     like to play the whole of the 20 minutes again.

11             Let's proceed and I'll listen to the French translation for the

12     time being.

13                           [Audiotape played]

14             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] " ...who have great difficulty to

15     come to terms with this situation.  And when it comes to concessions, as

16     far as the Croatian side is concerned, we have also contributed.  We have

17     given concessions because there can be no peace without concessions

18     provided by all sides.  Therefore, we have the dissatisfaction of those

19     people who due to the evil they had suffered want to proceed with

20     military combat operations and commit acts of revenge.  But on a whole,

21     in Croatia, we have such a stable democratic order that is necessary in

22     order to ensure the development of the principles along the lines you had

23     mentioned earlier."

24             [Previous translation continues] ... "Croatian authorities,

25     Croatian government is absolutely [indiscernible] and commited with this

Page 6528

 1     respect.  We have agreed to the Dayton Agreement, that is, to the

 2     peaceful solution concerning the liberation of the remaining occupied

 3     parts of the Republic of Croatia that is Eastern Slavonia.  This has even

 4     caused certain discontent among a number of the Croatian people and

 5     Croatian public because some people are saying, 'Why didn't we go and

 6     solve the issue militarily as we did with Western Slavonia, with Knin,

 7     and so forth,' because so much hatred and so must distrust has

 8     accumulated over the recent period.  However, we are fully aware of the

 9     fact that peace is more important.  We certainly do not want and have not

10     wanted all the Serbs to leave, and we didn't want -- we offer them the

11     protection of human rights and so forth, in our attempts to peacefully

12     liberate all our areas.  And we have also, on a number of times, at a

13     number of times, guaranteed all human rights to them.  Then, of course,

14     there is particular the issue, the painful issue of missing persons,

15     which is something that many people find difficult to accept, and even

16     when they know that their friend, relatives, members of their families

17     are dead.  But still thousands of people find it difficult to reconcile

18     themselves with such a state of affairs and who also find it difficult to

19     recognise themselves with the concessions.  I mean, Croatia has also made

20     its contributions in this regard.  We have made concessions because there

21     is no peace without concessions on all the parties involved.  And, hence,

22     the dissatisfaction of the part of the people who have suffered so much

23     over the past period, and this is why they want to see the matters solved

24     militarily and even feel feelings of revenge.  But, nevertheless, we have

25     a stable democratic order, and you can rest assured that we shall provide

Page 6529

 1     for the implementation of all the principles in our [indiscernible]."

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Almost 20 years ago, I wrote about

 3     the need to Scandinavise this area, both in the sense of democratisation

 4     and mutual recognition and co-existence of different ethnicities.  In the

 5     top echelons of Croatian authorities, I believe there are numerous

 6     humanists, according to their calling, their profession, their personal

 7     sentiments.  The president of the parliament is a writer; the deputy

 8     prime minister, a lady, is also a humanist here.  We have one of my

 9     closest associates, also a writer, a humanist, and so on.  In Croatia, in

10     this democratic government, there are truly not only people of -- who

11     have generally a political commitment.  There are people who are truly

12     supportive when it comes to Croatia and committed towards Croatia's

13     contribution and Bosnia and Herzegovina, on a whole, towards the

14     normalization of the Croatian-Muslim, the Croatian-Serb relations, and,

15     as I said, this area, instead of being a keg of gunpowder, should become,

16     in accordance with the example of Scandinavia, an area of peace and

17     cooperation amongst nations."

18             [Previous translation continues] ... wrote about the need and

19     necessity to Scandinavise this area, as I called it, on the basis of

20     democratization and mutual recognition and co-existence among peoples and

21     nations.  I believe that at the very top of Croatian government there are

22     more humanists by profession and by feeling.  The Speaker of our

23     parliament, our vice-premier present here, one of my first associates is

24     also a man of letters and a humanist, so in the Croatian democratic

25     government, we don't have only a general political commitment to the

Page 6530

 1     those principles but also their composition goes to show that there are

 2     people who truly committed, so that Croatia -- not only in Croatia itself

 3     but also in Bosnia and Herzegovina can contribute to the overall

 4     normalization of the relations between the Croats and the Muslims,

 5     between the Croats and the Serbs, so that this area does not become what

 6     it has been in the past, as they call it, a gunpowder keg but, rather, an

 7     example, along the example of Scandinavian countries of peace and

 8     cooperation among peoples."

 9             "Yes, I'm very pleased to be listening to this.  There is quite a

10     lot of Nordic mafia present here just now, with Stoltenberg and Bildt and

11     Rehn and so on, but I hope that this will really be something that is

12     positive and not negative in, in any case, because we really want to do,

13     do our best.  I think that just in this democracy process ... that those

14     who now are accused for -- for the looting and killing and so on during

15     Operation Storm, or the Serbian side, there are quite a lot of them in

16     prison that, if possible, even I -- if I know it is a very difficult

17     process, because no courts are capable of being very, very -- just short

18     in time with cases like this, when there are huge amount of them, but it

19     should be good if they could be dealt with quite quickly.  So there is

20     the feeling that this is something where the justice is working and they

21     will have then a fair trial.  Of course it will be fair, but the trial is

22     also fair when it comes quite, quite soon after committing the crimes.

23     And something I'm also concerned about this, perhaps the situation with

24     the camps, just like Velika Kladusa region, I believe they have

25     difficulties, if there is possible to improvements with their living,

Page 6531

 1     because it takes time before they are returning, one by one of course,

 2     but so that should be quite important."

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You see, with regards to refugees

 4     from Velika Kladusa, this is a good illustration of how complex the

 5     situation here is because the Muslims are afraid to return among the

 6     Muslim population.  And in this case we, Croatia, have done everything we

 7     could, our utmost.  We even called upon the president and the Turkish

 8     government to exert their influence on the Muslim leadership, and we also

 9     sent a unit of Croatian police in order to enable them to return as soon

10     as possible.  Well, the example of the refugees from Velika Kladusa, also

11     goes to show how complex the situation is, because this is a case of

12     Muslims being afraid to come back among Muslims ..." --

13             "Their own."

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And we, the Republic of Croatia,

15     have done everything.  We have also asked the Turkish government to help

16     us so that they bring their influence to bear on the Muslim leadership.

17     Even to send a police unit.  And we have also sent a unit of the Croatian

18     police there so that this matter can be dealt with as soon as possible.

19     As for the first issue you raised, I must say, frankly, that I had

20     already passed a decision on abolition of those who had participated in

21     the rebellion, the Serbs who had participated in the rebellion against

22     Croatian authorities, except for war criminals.  I must admit that we are

23     encountering resistance from a formally legal perspective, including our

24     judiciary, and recently I said, Do not put people on trial only because

25     they participated in the armed rebellion because, in a way, they were

Page 6532

 1     forced to do that.  Try people only if they had committed war crimes.

 2     Therefore, we, in Croatia, shall truly attempt to take action along the

 3     lines which you described, that we need to let people out of the jails as

 4     soon as possible because this is an important step towards establishing

 5     and renewing mutual trust between the Croats and Serbs in Croatia and

 6     also the normalization of the Croat-Serb relations as a whole."

 7             [Previous translation continues] ... "speaking, I have already

 8     issued a decision, a decree on abolition for all the Serbs who took part

 9     in the rebellion against Croatian authorities, against the Croatian

10     government, excepting war criminals, of course.  I must say that we do

11     meet with certain resistance in formal legal terms, even from the courts,

12     but even recently I said, Don't try those people who took part in the

13     rebellion because they were forced to.  Just try those who are guilty of

14     war crimes, and we shall really do everything operated on such levels.

15     And I also said, 'Release all those people who are not guilty of war

16     crimes, release them from prison.'  We believe that this is an important

17     step towards the rebuilding of trust between the Croats and the Serbs in

18     Croatia and, of course, within the scope of all or normalization of

19     relations between Croatia and Serbia."

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And we are doing this despite the

21     fact that there those are who are apposed to us, who are radical and

22     extremist element, who are criticizing us, and saying 'Why negotiate, why

23     reconcile with those who had committed the aggression?'  But we shall

24     persevere.

25             [Previous translation continues] ..."although they are in the

Page 6533

 1     opposition ranks, in radical extremist ranks, there are criticisms, 'Why

 2     negotiate with these people, why come to terms with them, since they are

 3     taken part in the aggression?'  But, nevertheless, we shall persevere

 4     along the lines which I mentioned."

 5             "Yes.  I believe it is very important for all of us.  As you

 6     know, Europe has put some conditions for construction, budget lines, and

 7     so on.  And for us it is very important that sooner or later, there

 8     should be a former Yugoslavia who totally is a part of the European Union

 9     Council to start with, and I have the feeling that you are the ones to be

10     starting this process.  So my role is, of course, very much of a

11     Rapporteur, but I'm not very, very happy to only report, as I told you in

12     the beginning.  I should very much like to contribute to the democratic

13     process in the whole territory; and, therefore, you can certainly count

14     on me.  Of course, I'm going to report badly things -- bad things if

15     there are nasty things to report on.  I hope that I will be unnecessary

16     soon, but I'm not so far, unfortunately."

17             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "The situation that we are in, we

18     have to try to leave it as so as possible."

19             [Previous translation continues] ... "need to strive to get out

20     of the situation in which we find ours, we have to try to leave it as

21     soon as possible."

22             "Yes.  We have our national day the day after tomorrow.  Can I

23     bring your regards, Mr. President, to my president?"

24             "My people [indiscernible]."

25             "I hope so."

Page 6534

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I'm looking at the clock.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I was going to suggest for the interpreters that we

 3     take an earlier break.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, a breath first, and then a break as well.

 5             Then we also could try to verify what is there as far as French

 6     translation is concerned, also keeping in mind that, of course, we heard

 7     most of what was spoken in B/C/S twice.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It would also give an opportunity to Mrs. Rehn

10     perhaps to go through the transcript and to prepare for the answer to the

11     question you put to her before playing this audio.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  If I could just ask her just to confirm.

13        Q.   The three voices we hear on the audio are your voice,

14     President Tudjman's voice, and President Tudjman's interpreter.  Is that

15     correct?

16        A.   That was totally correct, and it was quite interesting to

17     memorize again that discussion.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that we take a break firsts.

20             We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber apologises for the late start.  It will

24     not be of much consolation to you if I add that it was for good reasons,

25     but it was.

Page 6535

 1             Then before we continue, looking at the transcript, Mrs. Rehn, in

 2     relation to your second statement, I asked you in a bit of a summarized

 3     form whether it accurately reflect what happened you said, whether you

 4     would give the same answers, and the transcript doesn't give any explicit

 5     confirmation of that, but I understood that you confirmed that it was the

 6     same with the second as with the first one.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  It was.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now it is on the transcript.

 9             Then, yes, are you ready to continue, Mr. Misetic.

10             MR. MISETIC:  I am, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

12             MR. MISETIC:

13        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, would you agree with me that one of the --

14     President Tudjman's points in your meeting of the 4th of December was to

15     emphasise his desire for reconciliation between Serbs and Croats both

16     within Croatia and the generally the former Yugoslavia?

17        A.   That is absolutely true and that is also mentioned by me in my

18     reports.  You could well follow in our discussion, of course, the

19     diplomatic language that is always made in a certain way when a president

20     and a former minister is present, but it's absolutely true that he was

21     looking for a reconciliation.

22        Q.   And having heard the audiotape, do you believe that -- or would

23     you agree that in the context of that discussion about reconciliation,

24     President Tudjman spoke of the need to amnesty people who -- except for

25     people who had committed war crimes?

Page 6536

 1        A.   Yes.  This exception is very important.  It was quite clear also

 2     repeated by me, that the amnesty was meant for those who had not

 3     committed war crimes or real crimes.  They can be civilian crimes, too.

 4     But what perhaps was missing from the discussion was the question I put

 5     about the lootings and misbehaviour from the Croat side.

 6        Q.   We will get to, in a little while, the issue of whether civilian

 7     crimes were covered by the general amnesty and whether the international

 8     community wanted them covered by the general amnesty.

 9             But for our purposes here, to go back to your statement, for

10     example, you say, at page 5 of your statement:  "I remember telling

11     Tudjman that the perpetrators of crimes like looting and arson should be

12     dealt with quickly to show the judicial system was working.  Tudjman

13     responded by talking about the crimes that were committed by the Muslims

14     on the Croats.  In effect, he was not interested in what I was saying."

15             Did you hear anything in that audio of President Tudjman

16     referring to crimes committed by Muslims against Croats?

17        A.   In the beginning, he had a long -- long history of what has

18     happened in the future, and talking about the crimes during the earlier

19     times.  So that it was quite clear that he wanted to -- to raise this

20     question, too; that it is not only the Croat who is were guilty but there

21     are on all sides.

22             So I would say that there were no surprises for me when listening

23     now 13 years later to this -- this audio tape of our discussion.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Rehn, where you said what happened in the

25     future, I take it was a slip of the tongue and that you wanted to say

Page 6537

 1     what happened in the past.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  In the past.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. MISETIC:

 5        Q.   You would agree with me, Mrs. Rehn, that his opening or his

 6     introduction concerning the background of the conflict, that was his

 7     statement before you began --

 8        A.   Yes, exactly.

 9        Q.   Just for technical reasons, we have to speak one at a time, so

10     that the court reporter can record your -- my question and your answer.

11             But you do agree, then, that his reference to Muslims was in the

12     overall context of his discussion about what had happened over the

13     previous four years, and that was in his remarks to you.  Is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.  Then, of course, also, you know, the question of the

16     Kuplensko camp, and that was what was actual then, that was referring

17     to -- to two groups of Muslims.

18        Q.   But you also would now agree that President Tudjman spoke of that

19     camp because you had specifically asked him --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- about --

22        A.   Absolutely, it was so important, as the case for human rights at

23     that time.

24        Q.   Just to the Trial Chamber understands what we're talking about,

25     this was a situation of Bosnian Muslim refugees near the Bihac pocket who

Page 6538

 1     had escaped a conflict with other Bosnia Muslims, the Bosnia Muslim army

 2     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  And you will know that it was those who were the so-called

 4     Abdic followers who had escaped from the Bihac region, and the -- there

 5     were thousands of them in the camp in -- in Kuplensko.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may just point out, it

 7     is -- the reference to the long history is not before Mrs. Rehn started.

 8     According to the transcript I have here, that is transcript page number

 9     2, the -- the second slot.  There a long narration by Mr. Tudjman about

10     the history in response to a question by Mrs. Rehn.  So it not in the

11     oral context.  It is in response specifically to a question raised by

12     Mrs. Rehn.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you refer to the second page of the transcript, I

14     think it has the audio and the transcript has not yet been tendered into

15     evidence; so, therefore, the Chamber has no transcript available at this

16     moment because that comes up once we have it.  We've only seen it on the

17     screen.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, A, I don't think that was my point; B

19     I think -- I will tender it, of course, but obviously for counsel, if she

20     has a different spin on what she wants to say, she has more than --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that what

22     Ms. Mahindaratne did is that you misrepresented this.

23             That's your point, I take it.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is not a matter of how to interpret --

Page 6539

 1             MR. MISETIC:  I disagree that I misrepresented it.  My point was

 2     that the discussion of burning and looting took place after the

 3     discussion about the Muslim Croat conflict.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think there were two instances.

 5             Mrs. Rehn, you have at least a transcript.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm in a good position, in that

 7     sense.

 8             I really asked before the long story from President Tudjman

 9     started, I asked about the looting, the houses that were burned up, we

10     should come over this situation.  I mention all these crimes that had

11     been committed, and then President Tudjman's long historical overview

12     took place.  I'm grateful for the Prosecution for making me observant

13     because I was just believing that there was a right -- right remark from

14     the Defence.

15             And now when I'm checking this situation, I really was bringing

16     this to President Tudjman and then he started.  Isn't that correct?

17             MR. MISETIC:  Well, we can debate this back and forth, Your

18     Honour.

19             What Mrs. Rehn says on the transcript is I believe a more general

20     statement, that she doesn't want to be just a bookkeeper, but she wants

21     to face the future and just work together for better understanding in the

22     future of human rights, instead of just telling that those were murder

23     there, those were looted, those were their houses burned up, and they are

24     in mass graves.  We should come over this situation.

25             And then President Tudjman starts to start talking about the

Page 6540

 1     overall context, so I don't believe it is accurate to say like

 2     Ms. Mahindaratne did that this was a discussion about Operation Storm and

 3     that something was posed to President Tudjman --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It was about crimes, but not in a very precise

 5     context.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  This is again for redirect if she wishes to --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... let's leave it to that.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I just suggest, so that the

 9     Chamber could follow the discussions and the questions posed to the

10     witness, that if counsel intends to tender this document into evidence to

11     please -- I cannot, of course, ask counsel to do that, but I think it

12     would be appropriate for the Chamber to follow what is going on --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, we have the text on the transcript,

14     but it would be easier for us to have the transcript in hard copy as

15     well.

16             But let's at this moment --

17             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I believe I'm going to

18     tender both, and that is my intention.  That is why I brought it into

19     court.

20             So, yes, I tender both the audio and the transcript, and the

21     transcript is 1D -- sorry.  The clip is 1D40-0087, and that is the

22     transcript as well, I'm advised.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is it all under one number.

24             Ms. Mahindaratne.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections.

Page 6541

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 2             Then, Mr. Registrar, audio and transcript together?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, after the assignment of exhibit

 4     numbers in the internal memorandum, the next exhibit number would

 5     be D681.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then D681 is admitted into evidence.

 7             I further inform the parties that during the break, the lack of

 8     French translation has been verified.  It's lacking only when, for a

 9     second time, the same words were spoken.  So everything that has been

10     said, apart perhaps from some details, because in the translation there

11     might be slight but very minor discrepancies or differences, that we have

12     a French transcript reflecting what was said in the audio.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, turning now to the issue of the general amnesty.

16             MR. MISETIC:  First, Mr. Registrar, if could I call up 1D33-0325,

17     and if we could go to page 8 of this document, please.

18        Q.   This is a report of the Secretary-General from 14 February 1996

19     on the situation on -- of human rights in Croatia.

20             And at paragraph 30, it says:  "On 31 December 1995, the

21     president of Croatia issued a decree granting amnesty to 451 Serbs held

22     in prison since last summer on charges of armed rebellion for their

23     alleged military support of the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina.

24     According to the ICRC, 103 persons were released immediately from prison,

25     while 348 others were transferred to the Gasinci refugee camp in eastern

Page 6542

 1     Croatia where they were interviewed by ICRC officials.  In accordance

 2     with their wishes, 306 of this latter group were transported with ICRC

 3     assistance to the federal republic of Yugoslavia, while the remainder

 4     were released in Croatia.  The decision of the Croatian government to

 5     grant amnesty to these individuals was noted with appreciation by the

 6     Security Council in its presidential statement of 8 January 1996."

 7             Mrs. Rehn, were you aware that three weeks after this

 8     conversation that you had with President Tudjman in which he spoke of

 9     reconciliation, granting amnesty to Serbs, that he, in fact, then acted

10     on what he had said to you by issuing an amnesty to Serbs who had been

11     imprisoned during and after Operation Storm?

12        A.   I believe that I have reported on this amnesty, and that people

13     were released.  So that's totally true, and I'm, of course, not taking in

14     any case the honour to me that it was happening and our conversation.

15     That was, of course, something that was -- was planned, and I have never

16     denied that.

17        Q.   I am not -- you shouldn't assume that I think you're denying

18     things.  I'm just trying to get your best recollection.

19        A.   Yes, yes.  I'm totally aware of this.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'll pull up a document, if necessary, but let me

21     just ask you generally:  You are aware that in your report of

22     14 March 1996, you personally, at paragraphs 72 and 109, recommended an

23     amnesty for all former combatants of the former of the Serb Krajina?

24        A.   Mm-hm, yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, we're talked about whether common crimes were covered

Page 6543

 1     by this.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  And I need to call up, Mr. Registrar, 1D33-0316,

 3     and if we could go to page 9 of this document, please.

 4        Q.   This is a report of the Secretary-General pursuant to Security

 5     Council Resolution 1025, dated 13 December 1995.  So it's a little more

 6     than a week after your visit with President Tudjman.  And at paragraph 25

 7     the last sentence, the Secretary-General writes:  "I believe that the

 8     implementation of the civilian tasks foreseen in the agreement would be

 9     made considerably easier if the parties could agree on an amnesty and

10     exception from prosecution for certain categories of offences excluding

11     war crimes."

12             Are you familiar on the basis of this document of what categories

13     of offences were referred to there by the Secretary-General?

14        A.   No.  I'm definitely not a lawyer, so that I -- I couldn't just

15     exactly tell that this and this and this crimes are of the kind that are

16     outside the amnesty.  So, in that sense, it's difficult for me to answer

17     this question.  I -- I would like to say -- make it quite honestly.

18        Q.   I'll go further with some additional reports, and maybe it will

19     refresh your recollection, Mrs. Rehn.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D40-0015, please,

21     and if we could go to page 6 of this document.

22        Q.   This is the further report on the situation of human rights in

23     Croatia pursuant to Security Council Resolution 109, dated 5 March 1997.

24             MR. MISETIC:  If we could scroll to paragraph 22 at the bottom,

25     please.

Page 6544

 1        Q.   The Secretary-General writes:  "As noted in previous reports, a

 2     general amnesty law approved by the parliament of Croatia entered into

 3     force on 3 October 1996.  The legislation applies to persons accused of

 4     or sentenced for criminal acts committed in connection with aggression,

 5     rebellion, or armed conflict between 17 August 1990 and 23 August 1996.

 6     Criminal investigations or proceedings related to such acts were to be

 7     cancelled, and any detained persons who to whom the amnesty applied were

 8     to be released.  The legislation exempted from its coverage alleged

 9     perpetrators of war crimes."

10             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to the next page, please, and

11     paragraph 24, please.

12        Q.   "In the region at present administered by UNTAES, the application

13     of the amnesty law continues to cause widespread concern among the Serb

14     population.  At the time of writing of the present report, the Croatian

15     authorities were preparing a definitive list of persons believed by them

16     to be in the region and who, in the eyes of the Ministry of Justice, are

17     not covered by the amnesty law.  All those not on the list may then

18     consider themselves as amnestied?"

19             And the last sentence, talking about the minister of justice, he

20     stated that:  "The final list of war crime suspect would be released as

21     soon as possible."

22             And, finally, in the paragraph 25 there, starting at the second

23     sentence:  "The Croatian government has a clear interest in detaining and

24     prosecuting persons reasonably suspected of war crimes.  However, appeals

25     have been made to the government, including by the Special Rapporteur of

Page 6545

 1     the Commission on Human Rights to finalise its list of war crime suspects

 2     on the basis of existing evidence, to remove uncertainty and ensure that

 3     arbitrary arrests are not made among Serbs returning to Croatia."

 4        A.   Mm-hm.

 5        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, reading this document, does that refresh your

 6     recollection about the fact that not only were ordinary crimes covered by

 7     the amnesty law, but that the international community was asking Croatia

 8     actually to prepare a list of people who weren't covered by the amnesty

 9     law and who may have been responsible for war crimes?

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object to that question.

11     What we saw was that the amnesty covered acts of aggression, rebellion,

12     or armed conflict.  We did not see any reference to ordinary crimes.

13             MR. MISETIC:  That is false judge, but if she wants to read what

14     it says, then read what it says.  It says:  "Acts committed in connection

15     with aggression, armed conflict."  Correct?

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes.  I don't see --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic may put the question to the witness.

18             Please proceed.

19             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I'm in trouble now, because this is

20     very much about judiciary and legal questions that are far beyond my --

21     my knowledge.  To my memory, we were very strong about that it was

22     important that real crimes should not be taken away to be amnestied.

23     Therefore, I'm a little bit surprised for this, that there even could be

24     a question of that -- that crimes committed during this Operation Storm

25     and otherwise too, that they could be amnestied.  Perhaps I should give

Page 6546

 1     an explanation still on the work of the Special Rapporteur.

 2             May I?

 3             MR. MISETIC:

 4        Q.   I am sorry.  I have a series of documents, so I think it is

 5     probably most fair to you if I show you the documents and then let you

 6     comment on ... [Overlapping speakers] --

 7        A.   Okay.  Do that.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may the witness complete her

 9     answer she wanted to explain.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  As a matter of fact, what Mr. Misetic

11     suggested, and which is a fair way of dealing with the matter, is that he

12     first finishes his line of questions, and then if there would be any --

13     if the witness would to explain anything further, that she does that

14     after the questions have been put to her, and that's fair.

15             Mr. Misetic, you may proceed.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Then what I will do is I will call up a series of documents, and

18     then I will put the question to you, Mrs. Rehn, after you have had a

19     chance to see all the documents?

20        A.   Mm-hm.

21             MR. MISETIC:  First, may I tender this report.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D682.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D682 is admitted into evidence.

Page 6547

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I may call up 1D40-0025, please.

 2        Q.   This is a statement by the president of the Security Council,

 3     19 March 1997.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to page 2, top paragraph.

 5        Q.   "The Security Council calls upon the government of Croatia to

 6     remove uncertainty about the implementation of its amnesty law; in

 7     particular, by finalising without delay the list of war crime suspects on

 8     the basis of existing evidence and in strict accordance with

 9     international law, and to put an end to arbitrary arrests particularly of

10     Serbs returning to Croatian."

11             MR. MISETIC:  I tendered this document into evidence, Your

12     Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, may I take it that there is no

14     objection?

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D683.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D683 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             If we can now call up 1D40-0027.

21        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, this is your report of 31 October 1997.

22             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn to - just a minute - paragraph 58,

23     which is page 15 of this document, Mr. Registrar.

24        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, you write at paragraph 58, speaking of the amnesty law

25     now:  "The legislation applies to persons accused of or sentenced for

Page 6548

 1     criminal acts committed in connection with aggression, rebellion, or

 2     armed conflict between 17 August 1990 and 23 August 1996.  Criminal

 3     investigation or proceedings related to such acts were to be nullified,

 4     and any detained persons to whom the amnesty applied were to be released.

 5     The legislation exempted from its coverage alleged perpetrators of war

 6     crimes."

 7             Paragraph 59, you then recall the presidential statement which I

 8     just showed you of 19 March 1997, calling upon the government of Croatia

 9     to remove uncertainty about the implementation of its amnesty law, "I

10     particular by finalising without delay its list of war crime suspects on

11     the basis of existing evidence and in strict accordance with

12     international law, and to put an end to arbitrary arrested particularly

13     of Serbs returning to Croatia.  The application of the amnesty law,

14     however, continues to cause widespread concern among the Serbian

15     population."

16             MR. MISETIC:  And then if we turn to page 23 of this document, at

17     paragraph 98:

18        Q.   "The government's final list of 150 suspected war criminals,

19     however, has not had the intended effect, i.e., building confidence among

20     the Serb population.  People remain uncertain as to the exact content and

21     real meaning of the list.  According to the UNTAES statements," and

22     UNTAES being the acronym for UN Transitional Administration of Eastern

23     Slavonia, "all those not on the list should consider themselves immune

24     from future prosecution for war-related crimes."

25             Now, Mrs. Rehn, this is in your report from the 31st of October,

Page 6549

 1     1997.  So does this refresh your recollection of the fact that the

 2     international community, in order to encourage Serbs to stay in Croatia,

 3     wanted the broadest possible amnesty law passed.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   Due to -- to this report, it is correct, but you left some

 5     sentences out, where I -- I strongly took to discussion the fact that

 6     this is creating a lot of unrest with the Serb population, because they

 7     don't know if they are safe or not because of all the different lists.

 8     There is also this UNTAES.  I'm -- I'm a referring to UNTAES statements,

 9     that means that this is not my report .  It is an UNTAES statement that

10     I'm referring to.  It's not my opinion.

11        Q.   Yes.  But on direct examination, you weren't asked for your

12     opinion.  You were asked what the position of the international community

13     was, which is why I'm putting to you UNTAES being a part of the

14     international community, and I actually agree with what you just said.

15             Meaning, in order -- because there was anxiety among the Serb

16     population as to who is covered or not covered by the amnesty law, would

17     you agree with me that the international community insisted that Croatia

18     prepare a list of people who were suspected of war crimes and that

19     everybody who wasn't on the list could consider themselves amnestied for

20     all crimes committed in connection with the armed conflict, even if later

21     it was discovered that they had committed war crimes?

22        A.   I think this was quite a leading question, and still --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Rehn, that is permitted in cross-examination.

24             THE WITNESS:  But let me reflect on that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 6550

 1             THE WITNESS:  You are referring here, as I already said before,

 2     to UNTAES statements, where they are of the opinion that everybody should

 3     be -- a senior Croatian government said that a list doesn't exist, and

 4     there are very many different opinions on this.  I would say that it was

 5     very difficult at that time to get a special opinion of the international

 6     community.

 7             What is the international community?  That is a question we have

 8     got so many times put to us, because there are different opinions.  We

 9     wanted to have an amnesty, but definitely not in a way that could put

10     somebody in danger for perhaps not being guaranteed amnesty; and, on the

11     other hand, to -- to make it quite clear, that nobody can just escape

12     with a war crime and even a very, very strong civil crime, like murdering

13     and burning houses.

14             So I think that it was even a part of my discussion with

15     President Tudjman, if I may recall rightly, that these are very tricky

16     questions; and to just ask for one international community opinion at

17     that time with all the problems, I think that would be impossible.

18             MR. MISETIC:

19        Q.   Well --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, may I ask you:  Will you present at any

21     later stage the list in evidence?

22             MR. MISETIC:  We are in the process of obtaining it from the

23     Ministry of Justice, but there were several lists that were circulated,

24     and we're in the process of getting the final list that was turned over

25     to the UN Transitional Authority in Eastern Slavonia.

Page 6551

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Because it should shed some light on what I see at

 2     this moment as a bit of a problem.

 3             From what I understand, but please correct me if I'm wrong,

 4     Mrs. Rehn, from what I understand you express concern about the bad

 5     things that you had seen happening and that no prosecutions took place.

 6     I understood this to be, but again, correct me if I'm wrong, bad things

 7     committed by Croats during or after Operation Storm.  That's when you

 8     were talking about the looting and the burning.

 9             Now, the whole line of questioning now shifts to what seems to be

10     not exactly the same problem, which is that Serbs were fearing that, upon

11     return, they might be prosecuted, and that they had some concerns about

12     whether they would be prosecuted for actively taking part in whether you

13     call it rebellion, at least being members of enemy forces, more or less,

14     to Croatia.

15             Now, what would assist me is to find out whether this, I would

16     say perhaps, implicit coverage, because not excluded Croats having

17     committed war crimes, if they were committed, whether that was the issue

18     you wanted to raise; or whether the focus, was, when you raised the issue

19     with President Tudjman, on the clear distinction between Serbs having

20     participated in the --

21             MR. MISETIC:  I don't think -- sorry.  Go ahead.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It would assist me to have a clearer view on that,

23     and that's also the reason why I'm asking about these lists, because if

24     that would be a clearly mixed list, then it could shed some light on the

25     issue which is puzzling me at this moment.

Page 6552

 1             MR. MISETIC:  If I may respond to that, Your Honour.

 2             The --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I said --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  I mean --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  that is my concern, and

 6     then, of course, you can put questions to the witness, and at least you

 7     know what would assist me in better understanding this.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  I'm actually not sure what the issue is.  You're

 9     looking for the list.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the list could be one element of having a

11     clearer view on what puzzles me, but also what Mrs. Rehn raised with

12     President Tudjman and what exactly the new legislation and the list were

13     focussing on.

14             MR. MISETIC:  I believe I can comment because it is now all in

15     evidence, Your Honour, that the legislation as drafted and as the actual

16     amnesty law I have tendered into evidence, which is 1D33-0495 - I believe

17     it has a number now - was, as you know, in a democratic society, the laws

18     apply equally.  It is also incorrect to say that the international

19     community was interested in an amnesty for rebellion crimes, which is

20     precisely why I took her through these documents.

21             The whole point was that the international community insisted

22     that any crime, burning, looting, theft, et cetera, except - and you can

23     read the law as to what was excluded - that was connected to the armed

24     conflict was amnestied.  The law applies, as in any democratic country,

25     not on the basis of who's an ethnic member of one group or not, it

Page 6553

 1     applies -- equal protection of the law applies.

 2             And it was, as I might add --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, Mr. Misetic.  I'm not in a debate with

 4     you at this moment.  What I said is that there was an element in the line

 5     of questioning and the testimony of the witness which I was struggling

 6     with; and for you to know that I was struggling with it, might guide you

 7     in seeking further to clarify these issues.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, you have heard some of the discussion of the policy

11     behind encouraging the amnesty law.  And let me, again, restate - and we

12     had this in response to your last answer - about what is the

13     international community.  You would agree with me that the Security

14     Council, in terms of the international community, is one of the highest

15     instances, if not the highest instance, of the representative body that

16     speaks for the international community.  Is that correct?

17        A.   Of course.

18        Q.   Okay.  So, again, 19 March 1997:  "The president of the Security

19     Council calls upon the government of Croatia to remove uncertainty about

20     the implementation of its amnesty law, in particular by finalising

21     without delay the list of war crime suspects on the basis of existing

22     evidence and in strict accordance with international law."

23             I'm going to try to address the question that was posed by Judge

24     Orie.  But the policy behind the Security Council calling upon Croatia to

25     do this was to eliminate any uncertainty for Serbs about their future in

Page 6554

 1     Croatia, so that people would not fear that if they returned, they would

 2     be arrested for a crime.  Whether it was armed rebellion, theft, some

 3     other common crime, the international community through the Security

 4     Council wanted Serbs to have certainty as to what laws would apply to

 5     them.  Isn't that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And in conjunction with that policy, Croatia, you're

 8     aware, passed an amnesty act.  Correct?

 9        A.   Mm-hm, yes.

10        Q.   And are you aware that that amnesty act applied to all citizens

11     of the Republic of Croatia and not just citizens who may be ethnic Serbs?

12        A.   Of course, because there are other minorities, too.

13        Q.   And there are majorities, too?

14        A.   Sorry.  There are other minorities, too, and majorities.  There

15     are other nationalities.

16        Q.   Correct.  Okay.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I don't know if I tendered the 31

18     October 1997 report of Mrs. Rehn, but if I haven't, I tender it now.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Let me give Mr. Registrar the number, 1D40-0027.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D684.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D684 is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, while I'm on this topic, I am going to

25     pull up a document just to tender from the bar table on this amnesty

Page 6555

 1     issues, which may be relevant to the Trial Chamber for reasons that I

 2     won't go in to, but it is 1D40-0093.

 3        Q.   This is an ECMM report received by the Gotovina Defence from

 4     9 August 1995.  And in the third paragraph, we have:  "A," deletion, "met

 5     with," deletion, "who stated that the number of the Croatian fatalities

 6     during Operation Storm was 118, and that the Serb losses were not very

 7     high because the HV had not met strong Serb resistance.  He added that

 8     detained Krajina soldiers who have not committed war crimes will be

 9     amnestied within one month."

10             MR. MISETIC:  And, unfortunately, the redactions were not made by

11     us.  This is one --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is aware of that.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  So, Your Honour, I'd ask that this document

14     be admitted into evidence.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D685.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D685 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, I'm going to turn your attention now to your

21     meeting with Minister Susak on the 4th of December.  And in your

22     statement, you make reference to the fact that -- let me call it up.

23             At page 5, you say:  "Susak defended the Croatian military by

24     making reference to my report and saying that I should have concentrated

25     more on the civilians who commited crimes in my earlier report, instead

Page 6556

 1     of pointing out that crimes were committed by the Croatian military.  I

 2     pointed out that my report was based on the facts that been collected by

 3     internationals in the field, and some of those situations had been

 4     personally observed by me.  He was dissatisfied with my report and my

 5     response."

 6             Now, I'd like to pull up your 7 November report, which I still

 7     have as 65 ter 2710.

 8             And I note in your statement, Mrs. Rehn, at page 2, you said:  "I

 9     prepared reports for the Security Council based on information from many

10     organisations, including ECMM, ICRC, and other human rights

11     organisations.  This would include UNPROFOR, UNMO, and UNCIVPOL

12     representatives.  My staff would both interview people and check the

13     information before I would report it."

14             Is that how this report of the 7th of November was prepared by

15     gathering information from other international organisations?

16        A.   Yes.  All my reports are -- were prepared in that way, with

17     personal discussions, with the talking with people on the grass root

18     level with -- with the political leadership; and then gathering

19     information from all the human rights organisations and -- and the UN and

20     other organisations in the field; also, very strongly the national

21     Croatian human rights organisations.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mrs. Rehn.

23             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn to page 5 of the report, please.

24        Q.   At paragraph 9, the Secretary-General reports:  "During her first

25     mission to Croatian, the Special Rapporteur was informed by international

Page 6557

 1     observers and representatives of local non-governmental organisations

 2     about the status of the various human rights problems persisting in that

 3     country.  Her mission was also devoted to establishing important contacts

 4     with relevant authorities.  In future missions, the Special Rapporteur

 5     intends to conduct her own first-hand investigations of alleged human

 6     rights violations."

 7             Now, the way this is phrased, is it fair to say that this report

 8     is not on the basis of any first-hand investigation that you had done,

 9     and that, instead, you were going to do a first-hand investigation with a

10     subsequent report?

11        A.   No, that is totally wrong.  It is a wrong interpretation of this,

12     because I made studies.  I went to Sector North.  I met with people who

13     had been left there.  I could myself observe terrible things.  So that

14     was totally incorrect.

15        Q.   Okay.  If we could go to page seven of the report, please.

16             At paragraph 15, you say:  "During the military operation,

17     civilian targets including residential areas of Knin were deliberately

18     targeted by the Croatian army."

19             MR. MISETIC:  We can stop there.

20        Q.   What evidence did you have when you prepared this report that the

21     Croatian army deliberately targeted civilian targets?

22        A.   There is, for instance, the Grubori case that I -- sorry.

23        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you.  This is now talking about during the

24     military action --

25        A.   Sorry.

Page 6558

 1        Q.   -- so during the ... [Overlapping speakers].

 2        A.   Sorry, sorry, sorry.  These are reports that I have got from my

 3     staff of the human rights commission, and what they have got through

 4     their cooperation with other UN organisations.  So, in that sense, it is

 5     firsthand -- first-hand information delivered to the Special Rapporteur.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   And, sooner or later, I would like to have the possibility to,

 8     with a few words, inform the Court about the way and the independence of

 9     a human rights rapporteur.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, you will have an opportunity to do so.

11             Would this be a suitable moment, Mr. Misetic.  I don't want to

12     interrupt your --

13             MR. MISETIC:

14        Q.   Let me finish this line of questioning, Mrs. Rehn, and then we'll

15     give you an opportunity to speak to that subject.

16             MR. MISETIC:  If we could, while we have the document on the

17     screen, turn to page 8, which is the next page.

18        Q.   At paragraph 23, it says:  "Evidence gathered so far indicates

19     that violations of human rights and humanitarian law which were committed

20     during and after Operation Storm include the following:"

21             And then B says:  "Targeting of heavy weapons against militarily

22     insignificant sites in towns, including residence areas of Glina and

23     Knin."

24             Now, was this also information that had been obtained by your

25     staff?

Page 6559

 1        A.   Exactly.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, could I have P64 on the screen,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, this is an UNMO report from the 18th of August, so it

 6     is several months before your report.  Paragraph 1 -- actually, the title

 7     or underneath the date is:  "Provisional assessment of damage caused by

 8     HV operations from the 4th to the 6th of August, 1995 at Knin.  UNMO team

 9     Podkonje has made a provisional assessment of the damages caused by the

10     HV operations from 04 to 06 August 1995, in the town of Knin.  The report

11     is based on a run down of 70 per cent of Knin town, and gives only a

12     brief overview of the situation."

13             Paragraph 2 says:  "In general, shelling was concentrated against

14     military objectives.  The damages caused by shelling to civilian

15     establishments is concentrated to the close vicinity of military

16     objectives.  Only three to five impacts is observed in other urban

17     areas."

18             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could turn -- call up P228,

19     Mr. Registrar.

20             This is an UNCIVPOL assessment of damage in Knin town caused by

21     the Croat liberation, dated 18 August 1995.  It says :  "Friday,

22     18 August 1995, at 10.30, together with investigation officer, Thor

23     Hansen, I started a survey of Knin town to assess the damage down in Knin

24     town caused by shelling, arson, and wilful damage.

25              "We covered the whole township and observed several impacts of

Page 6560

 1     shells/rockets around the Tvik factory, Milicija headquarters," milicija

 2     meaning police, "general direction of north barracks, shells coming from

 3     the north-east, and between the government house, Knin radio/TV building,

 4     and the hillside below Knin castle.  The compound of north barracks was

 5     not checked.  Observation done from street level.

 6              "We counted roughly 20 houses, buildings hit by shells and about

 7     another 20 presumable damaged by arson," and then it goes on.

 8             Mrs. Rehn, when you were preparing your report, was the UNCIVPOL

 9     report of the 18th of August, 1995, and the UNMO report of the 18th of

10     August, 1995, was that available for your review before reaching the

11     conclusions that you placed in your report?

12        A.   It is impossible for me to recall.  Sorry.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I was waiting for the French translation to be

14     finished, otherwise that --

15             THE WITNESS:  I understand that, yes, this is totally impossible

16     for me to recall which were the special documents on -- on every occasion

17     and for every paragraph of my reports.  You must remember that I was not

18     only covering Croatia.  That was only a small part of my mission.  So

19     that now just answer did this documents be there as a basis for my report

20     on this specific paragraph, it is impossible for me to recall.

21             MR. MISETIC:

22        Q.   If you had access to those reports from UNMO and UNCIVPOL, do you

23     think that would have affected your conclusion in your report that the

24     Croatian army deliberately targeted civilian targets?

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object to that question, Mr. President,

Page 6561

 1     because there have been other evidence led in this court, and to ask

 2     about these two documents in isolation is unfair.  Already, the witness

 3     has indicated that she cannot recall what reports she reviewed which was

 4     the basis for her conclusions.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, this is argument and not a legitimate

 6     objection.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, the Chamber is not assisted by putting

10     a question to a witness where she has made a report on the basis of, at

11     this moment, unspecified information, unspecified to the extent that the

12     general source is known, but not the details of that; then to put one or

13     two examples of reports to the witness and then ask her with she would

14     have changed her mind not having been in a position to review all the

15     information.  To that extent, the objection by Ms. Mahindaratne is

16     justified.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, it makes it really difficult to

18     cross-examine when they tender a report and then say the witness doesn't

19     know the basis of the conclusions in her own report, and any questions

20     put to her on existing evidence that we have is outside the scope.  I

21     don't understand of submitting the report.

22             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I said it doesn't assist the Chamber.  I hope you

24     understand what that primary means, yes?

25             MR. MISETIC:  I understand, Your Honour, yes.

Page 6562

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mrs. Rehn, if you would like to.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Perhaps now is a the moment when

 3     I should clarify a little more about the work of a Special Rapporteur on

 4     human rights.  We have many of them around in the world.  They are

 5     totally independent.  They are not dependant on the United Nations.  They

 6     are not, in that sense, a part of the United Nations.  They are not even

 7     having a salary from the United Nations for their work.  It is a

 8     so-called honorary mission.  There is a staff from the human rights

 9     commission - that it used to be earlier; it has a new name now - and who

10     are assisting the Special Rapporteur, who are making field trips, who are

11     interviewing other organisations, who are cooperation, and who are

12     lawyers have all these details clear.

13             What is important is that the human rights report to the United

14     Nations is based on common sense and what are the impressions of the

15     Special Rapporteur.  It is apparently regarded that that person is a

16     person of some integrity and reliable.  And, therefore, the methods have

17     been like this.  Security Council commission are giving their answers on

18     resolutions on the reports and then picking up some important questions.

19             I have already made quite clear that judiciary is not my strong

20     part; human rights are, definitely, and the position of individuals in

21     difficult situations.  But I don't doubt and I don't want to doubt my

22     sources my people.  You were talking about the shelling with artillery on

23     civilian sites.  But in the report by the UNMOs, there were mentioned in

24     general, no outside military compounds, but with three to five different

25     situations, that were possible.  So it was not totally absolute with that

Page 6563

 1     statement.

 2             I would say that these reports are very important, giving an

 3     overview of the suffering of ordinary people and the answers and -- and

 4     the steps they are getting from the political leadership.

 5             So in that sense, we must have it clear for us what is the real

 6     role of a report.  And when saying this, I'm definitely not telling that

 7     they should not be reliable.  On the contrary.  They are very reliable.

 8     But they are giving one voice to the misery; in this case, after a very,

 9     very, brutal war.

10             Still, with the list where you tried to make me a little bit

11     unconvincing with the lists and the -- and the amnesty, it would be quite

12     easy for us to understand that what I was especially talking about and

13     asking about in Croatia at that time was the situation of the Serb

14     population and what had happened to them.  I had all the possibilities in

15     the other parts of the former Yugoslavia to look at crimes committed

16     against Croats, Muslims, and so on.

17             So even I would say that, of course, I did not mean personally an

18     amnesty that would exclude those who have committed severe crimes.  Why

19     should I otherwise have raised the question and the case of Grubori so

20     many times and asked for answers?

21             So I hope this is -- I'm very sorry for taking so much of the

22     time up of the Court, but it was important for me to give an explanation

23     the way the Rapporteur is working.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no need to apologise, Mrs. Rehn, for giving

25     the explanation.

Page 6564

 1             Could I put one question to you.  Mr. Misetic has put to you the

 2     line where it say:  "Evidence gathered so far indicates that violations

 3     of human rights and humanitarian law committed during and after

 4     Operation Storm, include the following ..." and then:  "B, targeting of

 5     heavy weapons against militarily insignificant sites in towns, including

 6     residence areas of Glina and Knin."

 7             He also has put to you the -- well, he has put this to you.  Were

 8     your sources unanimous on these matters, because, as you may have

 9     noticed, Mr. Misetic, has presented to you some reports with -- which --

10     tend to go in the direction that targeting was mainly against military

11     targets and that impacts were at least close to military targets.

12             My question is:  Were your sources unanimous at that time, or did

13     you include, when reporting, also reports which would not fully be in

14     line with your conclusions?

15             THE WITNESS:  Of course what I concluded in my reports were

16     reports given to me on what those persons had experienced themselves.

17     And as I already mentioned, at least in the report by UNMOs to -- to

18     Mr. Misetic, there was three to five exceptions to this with the military

19     targets that there could have been three to five military -- non-military

20     targets that were shot at.

21             You will find it somewhere in your -- in your papers that you

22     just presented to us.

23             And, so, it's difficult for me to give a totally covering answer

24     to you, Your Honour, because when we discussed what will be included in

25     the report - and when I'm saying "we," it was the team of the Human

Page 6565

 1     Rights Commission's field operation - so we are many discussing this.

 2     And of course it was a question of our honour to -- not to just give

 3     false information because it would have been against our interests.

 4             So I have to stand for those opinions expressed and the firsthand

 5     information expressed by my interlocutors.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There's no question about thinking at this

 7     moment that you would give a false impression.  I'm just trying to find

 8     out exactly how you work.

 9             For example -- let me put it in an example.  If you would receive

10     98 reports saying that, for example, shelling was indiscriminate or

11     against civilian targets, and there would be two reports saying, no,

12     targeting was mainly focussing on military targets, would you have then

13     concluded that by such a vast majority that shelling was indiscriminate

14     and would you have mention that as a conclusion, or would you have made a

15     footnote saying that -- I am trying to find out to what extent reports

16     which are not -- are not fully supportive of your conclusions are -- were

17     considered and whether they were explicitly mentioned if they were there,

18     to your knowledge.

19             THE WITNESS:  I really hope that I have been able to do as Your

20     Honour advised that I should have been doing, that there could have been

21     footnotes on some unclear cases, but I can't recall that we should have

22     -- had even a discussion that there are other opinions on -- on the

23     things we reported on, because we got our lists, we knew who has been

24     there, who had seen it, and it was a long, long, long list of different

25     cases that we put together.

Page 6566

 1             We put our -- our questions to authorities on different levels to

 2     get confirmation, and then, of course, so much of course we were tricky,

 3     or I personally, that depending on that if the perpetrator was telling

 4     that this is not true, who we thought that could be, the perpetrator,

 5     then we didn't put so much perhaps strength on -- on that other opinion.

 6             But I would say that our reporting was very fair, and if

 7     something was very unclear -- and sometimes, of course, I had to -- to

 8     make my own decisions that they should not mention this, is it really

 9     clear enough, and then we should not mention it because it's better to

10     have an accurate report than to have any fancy things.  What was that

11     line was all together with the reports was quite tough wherever I

12     reported from, from Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, Serbia, Croatia, former

13     Republic of Macedonia, it was a tough language, because I had to -- to

14     wake up people.  That is the function of the rapporteur, to wake up

15     people, that something is not as it should be.  It was not the diplomatic

16     language, and I could use that language when I spoke with people, but not

17     in reports.

18             So with quite a long answer, I would say that, to the best of my

19     knowledge, these were accurate reports.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could get 65 ter 2710 back on

23     the screen at page 27, please.

24        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, this is page 27 of your 7 November 1995 report.  And

25     at paragraph 105, you write:  "Serious human rights violations and

Page 6567

 1     violations of humanitarian law were perpetrated by members of the

 2     Croatian army during and after Operation Storm in the former Sectors

 3     North and South."

 4             Now, at the end of this report there's an appendix which

 5     identifies persons you met with on your travels from the 9th of October,

 6     1995 through the 14th of October, 1995 in the region, and it notes that

 7     on Thursday, October 12th, you had a meeting with Mr. Peter Galbraith,

 8     Ambassador of the United States of America.  And I'd like to call your

 9     attention to the fact that Mr. Galbraith testified before this Trial

10     Chamber on the 24th of June, 2008, at page 4985.  He was asked:  "So it

11     was your conclusion" --

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I could, I think we have an

13     agreement here that even if witnesses are presented with testimonies of

14     other witnesses that this witness in court is asked to present his or her

15     position on a particular issue --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Ms. Mahindaratne, the question arose yesterday

17     when Mr. Hedaraly raised the issue.

18             The ruling at that time was if a matter had not been dealt with

19     in examination-in-chief or in the evidence already given, so to that

20     extent it is more or less the introduction of a new document and not just

21     cross-examination in response of the -- then we should elicit from the

22     witness first independent on any other documents.

23             But I think, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Misetic is here

24     cross-examining on matters on which the witness, although through 92 ter,

25     testified in examination-in-chief, and then there's no need to

Page 6568

 1     reintroduce that element, but in cross-examination I would say in the --

 2     in the limited sense, it is no problem to put to the question -- to the

 3     witness what other evidence contains which was presented to the chamber.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Galbraith testified before this Trial Chamber, and he

 7     was asked:  "So it was your conclusion that the actual attack in

 8     Operation Storm in the -- in these first few days was consistent with

 9     international humanitarian law.  Is that right?

10             "Answer:  I don't think there were major violations of

11     international humanitarian law in those first few days."

12             Mrs. Rehn, at paragraph 105 here, you say that during the

13     operation there were violations of humanitarian law.  Do you recall if

14     Ambassador Galbraith, in your meeting with him on the 12 October 1995,

15     advised you of his view that there were no major violations of

16     international humanitarian law during the operation itself.

17        A.   I remember that we had talks about a lot of -- of problems in --

18     around the Operation Storm.  It is impossible for me to remember what

19     exactly we talked about.  If I remember rightly, he offered me a nice

20     dinner, but that is something else.

21             But he, of course, is standing for his own opinion, and I'm

22     representing my opinion.  So, certainly, if he thinks that there are no

23     major violations of international humanitarian law, I think that all

24     violations against human individuals are a violation.

25             But I can't recall that we specifically talked about this.  We

Page 6569

 1     talked around all what happened then, and I think we were very much of

 2     the same opinion.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Going back, then, to your meeting with Minister Susak on

 4     the 4th, it is true, is it not, that Minister Susak was dissatisfied with

 5     the conclusions in your report, that the Croatian army deliberately

 6     targeted civilians during the operation.  Isn't that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And --

 9        A.   It is stated here in my statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I checked 4985, which is the first page

11     of the 24th of June, I do not find it there.  It should be another page.

12             MR. MISETIC:  5043, Your Honour, I apologise.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14        Q.   It was also Minister Susak's opinion during your meeting with him

15     that during Operation Storm there were no major violations of

16     international humanitarian law.  Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that was his opinion.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, there was some discussion about evictions from

19     apartments.  You were asked about that by Ms. Mahindaratne.

20             The issue there, you will recall, was not evictions of ordinary

21     Serbs from their homes, correct, the issue was evictions of former

22     Yugoslavia national army officers from apartments that now belonged to

23     the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia?

24        A.   I would say so, but I think there were also ordinary Serbs.  But

25     this is something I'm -- I'm not totally clear with.

Page 6570

 1        Q.   Those --

 2        A.   These are details 13 years behind that I just can't recognise and

 3     remember.

 4        Q.   Those ordinary people in the apartments, would they have been

 5     family of the military person?

 6        A.   Could be.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   I think we have a long list of these evictions.  I don't have it

 9     with me.

10        Q.   It was brought up this morning that during the course of these

11     evictions sometimes violence would take place.  Do you recall whether

12     this violence took place in -- in the process of executing a court order

13     to evict people from military apartments?

14        A.   I can't remember that I would have that there was violence with

15     this.  My problem was more with all these evictions from the military

16     apartments, that there was a contradiction between what Minister of the

17     Interior Jarnjak told me, and what Susak told me who was present and so

18     on.  The violence I always been referring to has been in -- in connection

19     with the return of Serbs to their homes in the few cases when they have

20     been able to return than in the begin.

21        Q.   And that would have been a subject that you addressed with the

22     minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, correct?

23        A.   These were evictions from military.  That is something that is in

24     my report.  I think we have it here in the --

25        Q.   Just -- I'm sorry.

Page 6571

 1        A.   -- in the reports.

 2        Q.   I agree with you.  What I'm saying is you would have these

 3     conversations about evictions from military apartments with Minister

 4     Susak?

 5        A.   Yes, and with Jarnjak.

 6        Q.   Yes.  But the general issue of violence against Serbs, you had

 7     those conversations primarily with the minister of the interior,

 8     Mr. Jarnjak?

 9        A.   I had it also with Minister Susak.  You must remember that we

10     were old colleagues.  I had met him earlier in 1993, and I met him

11     without all these procedures on some occasions in Croatia.

12        Q.   Now, in your notes of your meeting with Minister Susak, it's

13     mentioned that Minister Susak told you that 220 criminal proceedings were

14     undertaken concerning arson and looting.

15        A.   Mm-hm.

16        Q.   Is that what Minister Susak said?

17        A.   If it is stated here, then, certainly.

18        Q.   Okay.  Did that indicate to you that Minister Susak acknowledged

19     that criminal prosecutions were necessary for illegal conduct

20     conducted -- or committed after Operation Storm?

21        A.   Mm-hm, certainly.  But not very interested in the matter as a

22     whole with the civilian side.

23        Q.   Could that be because Minister Susak felt it was not part of his

24     portfolio to be prosecuting and --

25        A.   I hope so, that he had a clear understanding of -- of portfolio

Page 6572

 1     of his ministry and others.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, this might be a good time for a break.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you done with 65 ter 2710?

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I take it that you wanted to tender that

 7     into evidence?

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Ms. Mahindaratne tendered it this morning.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  It is part of the 92 ter

10     submission.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have seen that.  Yes, it would be P639,

12     although still marked for identification.

13             MR. MISETIC:  I need to print out the list during the break, Your

14     Honours, because I don't have the numbers with me.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Since you used it and since Ms. Mahindaratne

16     tendered it, I think the status of P639 could already be changed in the

17     absence of any objections of any of the other parties in an exhibit.

18             We'll have a break and resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mrs. Rehn, now I'd like to talk to you about your meeting with

24     Minister Jarnjak on 4 December 1995.  This is --

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit P601 on the

Page 6573

 1     screen, please.  That's the one, right.

 2        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, in your statement, you discuss your meeting with

 3     Minister Jarnjak, and you say -- let me find the page for you.

 4             At page 6, you say:  "Jarnjak claimed that he did not have data

 5     on humanitarian abuses, and it was clear to me that he did not want to

 6     receive the information from us.  Jarnjak also indicated that he was not

 7     going to investigate the reports of mass graves."

 8             Now, if we look at the notes, at paragraph 2, it's noted that:

 9     "Minister Jarnjak replied that the security situation ..." -- I should

10     say section 2.

11             "Minister Jarnjak replied that the security situation has

12     normalised and criminal proceedings have been undertaken against

13     perpetrators of crimes commited, i.e., looting, arson," et cetera.

14             And then if we go to page 3, specifically about this issue about

15     him not having data on humanitarian abuses -- sorry, on page 2.  I

16     apologise.  I couldn't find it.

17             Page 2, paragraph -- or section 7, it says:  "Regarding the

18     situation on the return of refugees, she raised her concern about many

19     administrative obstacles which did not facilitate the return of refugees.

20     She inquired whether data available on a number of returns.

21             "Minister Jarnjak mentioned did he not have any data on that

22     matter and did not receive any comments concerning human rights abuses

23     after the return of refugees.  He recognised that the difficulties

24     occurring after their return are connected to problems existing between

25     neighbours."

Page 6574

 1             So, is it fair to say that what Minister Jarnjak said at the

 2     meeting was not that he had no data on humanitarian abuses; but, rather,

 3     that he no data on humanitarian abuses against refugee who had returned

 4     to the area?

 5        A.   Of course, you can put your words in that way.  I think that we,

 6     both of us, understand what was meant in the report and in my words.

 7        Q.   I'm asking, Mrs. Rehn, because --

 8        A.   Yes.  And I'm just telling that he didn't have data on what I was

 9     asking about, the returns and the humanitarian abuses around this; and

10     so, in that sense, it is an answer on the question.

11        Q.   When you say, he didn't have --

12        A.   It is written here.  He didn't have the data.

13        Q.   He didn't have the data on abuses occurring against people who

14     had returned.  Is that correct?

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, that was not the answer.  The

16     witness clearly answered the question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

18             Mrs. Rehn, you have understood, I take it, what Mr. Misetic is

19     concerned about.  What matters exactly is did Mr. Jarnjak tell you he had

20     no data.  If you could explain that, and refer to part of the notes you

21     consider relevant, then, please proceed.

22             THE WITNESS:  I asked about the returnees; and as we talked about

23     them, he said that he don't have data.  So it could be, of course, taken

24     as an overall that he is in possession of any kind of data, but it was

25     definitely with reference to the return of the refugees and human rights

Page 6575

 1     abuses around these.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Meaning about around the return and not prior to the

 3     return?  I mean unrelated to the return, perhaps I should say.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I have, Your Honour, to say that I can't answer

 5     this question because it's some time ago, and the notes taken by

 6     Mr. Diakite are not very clear in this sense.  But what I have as my

 7     memory from those discussions was that he was not very much interested in

 8     the problems created by the returns and also in the civilian casualties

 9     in connection to Operation Storm.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

11             MR. MISETIC:

12        Q.   With regard to the last portion of your answer, Mrs. Rehn, do you

13     have anything in the notes that would reflect that Mr. Jarnjak was not

14     interested in the civilian casualties in connection to Operation Storm?

15     Is there any reference you can give us in the notes?

16        A.   No, only my head, and that is something that you can't just make

17     a reference to, unfortunately.  But so much of the reports are based

18     on -- on discussions, on talks with people, because you know very well

19     that in the minutes of the meeting, you are not putting every, every word

20     in the minutes.

21             So that was the impression I had when I came out from that

22     meeting.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Turning to the next page of these notes, please,

25     it's section 11.

Page 6576

 1        Q.   This relates to the statement in your statement that:  "Jarnjak

 2     indicated that he was not going to investigate reports of mass graves."

 3             Paragraph 11 says:  "The Special Rapporteur expressed her concern

 4     on the situation of mass graves which should be investigated now or soon

 5     after in the former Yugoslavia.  She pointed out that police from both

 6     sides should attend those events for investigation and monitoring, i.e.,

 7     international observers for more impartiality and as to avoid any

 8     confusion in the result.

 9              "Minister Jarnjak explained that the parliament adopted a

10     legislation by which all information on war crimes should be forwarded to

11     the international war crimes Tribunal.  He said that they will ensure all

12     necessary measures for more transparency in that matter."

13             MR. MISETIC:  And then it continues on to the next page.

14        Q.   It says:  "The Special Rapporteur mentioned also that it is

15     important to preserve the dignity of those persons when opening the

16     graves and to facilitate the presence of religious authorities; i.e.,

17     bishop, orthodox priest.  Minister Jarnjak fully supported the

18     suggestion, and add that so far only allegations on mass graves have been

19     reported against Croatia, referring to the allegation in Pakrac.  And the

20     international community was invited, and they await results from that

21     investigation on that matter.  However, he pointed out that in the

22     liberated areas, they have indications of mass graves in some areas."

23             Could you point or tell us the basis for your statement that

24     Minister Jarnjak indicated that he would not investigate mass graves?

25        A.   It was the overall impression I got from what he said.  That is

Page 6577

 1     also written in this paragraphs, that, okay, "There are perhaps mass

 2     graves.  There is the law that has been adopted by the -- by the

 3     parliament of Croatia," with reference to the international criminal

 4     court and the Tribunal.  But direct actions, "Everybody is welcome to

 5     come" and so on, but not exactly what he is going to do, and that is

 6     lacking from these -- these minutes from this meeting.  And that was the

 7     impression I then got, and I was not alone on that.  My -- my fellows

 8     accompanying me at that meeting had exactly the same impression.

 9        Q.   According to the notes, it was you who had framed the issue as

10     one of whether the international observers would be allowed to

11     participate in the investigations of mass graves.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.  Due to these notes, yes.

13        Q.   And so all Minister Jarnjak was doing was responding to you that,

14     yes, international observers would be allowed --

15        A.   Mm-hm.

16        Q.   -- to participate.  Correct?

17        A.   Mm-hm.

18        Q.   And that the results of that investigation according to new

19     Croatian legislation should be forwarded to the war crimes Tribunal?

20        A.   Yes, exactly what is said here.

21        Q.   Now at page 3 of your statement --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you quoted that the investigation

23     should be forwarded; whereas, the text says "information," which is not

24     exactly the same, because it's exactly the issue raised by Mrs. Rehn,

25     which was what to do yourself, and perhaps to what extent to respond to

Page 6578

 1     what others initiated.  Otherwise, I would not have pointed that if it

 2     was just a minor meaningless distinction between the two words.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

 5        Q.   On page 3 of your statement, you say -- referring now to your

 6     7 November 1995 report, you say:  "On page 14, I refer to the Croatian

 7     minister of the interior providing the results of investigations into

 8     crimes in connection with Operation Storm.  In the figures that were

 9     quoted, only one Croatian soldier was mentioned as having been

10     investigated.  Because of this, I did not believe the figures because we

11     had ample information to the contrary."

12             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go back to 65 ter 2710, Mr. Registrar,

13     and page 14 of this document, please.

14        Q.   Now, Mrs. Rehn, this is the page that you refer to in your

15     witness statement, and it -- at paragraph 35, it says, in the second

16     sentence:  "On 18 October 1995, the Croatian minister of the interior

17     presented the results of the investigation of crimes committed in

18     connection with Operation Storm, according to the police -- according to

19     which, the police had resolved 25 or 41 registered cases of murder.  The

20     police have arrested 13 people suspected of committing crimes in the

21     village of Gosici and in Varivode.  According to the government, only one

22     Croatian army soldier was included among the suspects; whereas, all

23     others were civilians who wearing military apparel."

24             Now you interpreted that sentence to mean that the Croatian

25     minister of the interior said that only one Croatian army soldier was

Page 6579

 1     mentioned as having been investigated in connection with crimes committed

 2     after Operation Storm.

 3        A.   Yes, that's quite logical.

 4        Q.   Well, is it possible that the report actually refers to one

 5     Croatian army soldier who was among the suspects for the crimes committed

 6     in the village of Gosici and in Varivode, and not that there was one

 7     Croatian army soldier suspected of crimes -- concerning all crimes after

 8     Operation Storm?

 9        A.   It is impossible for me to answer that.  Of course, everything

10     could be possible.  But this was something that human rights team had

11     paid a lot of attention to, so it's difficult for me to -- to believe

12     that they were not clear in this -- in this sentence.

13        Q.   Well, this is not a sentence of the Croatian government.  This is

14     a sentence written by the Secretary-General pursuant to your report.

15        A.   Yes, yes.  But it is based on my report.

16        Q.   Now, earlier, we talked about the fact that Minister Susak told

17     that you 222 persons had been charged with burning and looting.  Correct?

18        A.   Mm-hm, yes.

19        Q.   Yes.  Minister Susak would have been referring to soldiers?

20        A.   I would believe so.  They have been charged, yes.

21        Q.   Did you note any -- anything about the fact that, as of

22     7 November 1995, you apparently are of the opinion that you were

23     reporting that the Croatian authorities had only suspected one soldier

24     for all the crimes committed after Storm, and by 4 December 1995, the

25     minister of defence was telling you that the number was 222?

Page 6580

 1        A.   That was a number that we could not or I could not check.  So it

 2     was something that was told to me; and, of course, we had to take it as

 3     something that was relevant.  But these -- these differences between

 4     these numbers, I don't think they are very important.  The important is

 5     the overall attitude that charges for militaries were not as popular as

 6     for the civilians.

 7        Q.   Let's talk about that overall attitude.  And just like we did

 8     this morning, what I'm going to do, in the interests of time, is to show

 9     you a series of additional reports by you and by the Secretary-General,

10     and then ask you some questions about that attitude.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Misetic, could I ask one

12     clarification.

13             One of the questions Mr. Misetic put to you is that whether

14     Minister Susak would have been referring to soldiers, in relation to

15     the 222; and your answer is:  "I would believe so.  They have been

16     charged, yes."

17             What's the basis for your belief that he was referring to

18     soldiers?

19             THE WITNESS:  Because he was not talking about any other groups

20     mostly than just the soldiers.  He was very strong about this.  He was in

21     charge of the defence people obeying the defence and the rules there, and

22     then the others were a mandate for other ministers like the interior and

23     so on.

24             But this is only something I believed, that it could refer to the

25     military.  I don't have a relevant answer on that.  It's my impression.

Page 6581

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you because in your statement, you

 2     express that you were criticised for focussing on soldiers rather than on

 3     potential civilian perpetrators of these acts.  Of course, I'm asking to

 4     what extent you can reconcile this criticism, but at the same time

 5     speaking about the relatively large number which you consider to be about

 6     soldiers.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, you are really putting now in a

 8     thinking mode of what exactly was meant with this, because it is not

 9     anything that is not confirmed by my staff that Minister Susak really was

10     not very pleased about the report, about anything that I had done.

11             So, in that sense, we -- we had all the time a feeling that he is

12     not interested in being very helpful to us regarding the military.

13             So now when are you taking this, that should be perhaps the most

14     logic that he referred perhaps to something else that than to military

15     when we took it as military.  That's quite open, and I really must say

16     that this is something that is absolutely impossible for me to memorize.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Misetic --

19             THE WITNESS:  I'm really sorry.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- perhaps there are objective data which gives us

21     an opportunity not to rely on logic in conversation, but rather on

22     objective data.

23             MR. MISETIC:  There are a lot more witnesses to cross-examine,

24     Your Honour, so it's coming.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 6582

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar --

 2        Q.   As I said, Mrs. Rehn, we will show you -- I will show you a

 3     series of documents now, and ask for -- a few questions at the end.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  But if we could call up 65 ter 2365, it should be

 5     Mrs. Rehn's report of 14 March 1996.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, 2365 is already marked for

 7     identification as D669, but without the B/C/S translation.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, I'm sorry, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So I'm wondering whether it finally will be D669

10     with a translation, or whether you vacated that number and --

11             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that 2365 will --

13             MR. MISETIC:  D669.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D669.  So, then, Ms. Mahindaratne, there is no need

15     anymore to tender 2365.

16             But is there a translation meanwhile, or do you borrow that

17     from --

18             MR. MISETIC:  It's an official UN document.  I was not aware that

19     we had to translate those.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, we have a translation uploaded

21     of 2365, and I believe it has been given a MFI number P638 MFI.  So I

22     leave it with you, Mr. President, as to which document you would prefer

23     to use.  Our document has a translation.

24             MR. MISETIC:  It's the same to me, Your Honour, so --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I then suggest since the Defence was first, it will

Page 6583

 1     be D669 and that you borrow the translation from 2365, and that, Mr.

 2     Registrar, that this P638 can be vacated.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 5             If we could go to page 26 of the report, please.

 6        Q.   At paragraph 104, you write:  "Information provided by the

 7     government of Croatia indicates that a large number of judicial

 8     proceedings have been instituted with respect to crimes and human rights

 9     violations that were allegedly committed mostly against Croatian Serbs in

10     the aftermath of the military operations.  However, many reported cases

11     of killings remain unresolved, and there is little evidence of trials

12     concerning acts of arson or looting being brought to a conclusion."

13             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could call up -- I have the still.  I

14     apologise if there are P numbers, but I have 65 ter 2820, which is a

15     report on the situation of human rights in the territory of the former

16     Yugoslavia, dated 12 November 1996, which is, I'm told, P640, MFI

17     [Realtime transcript read in error "P460, MFI"].

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I think, Mr. President, there's an error on

19     the transcript.  It is recorded as "P460," I believe it is "P640."

20             MR. MISETIC:  That's correct.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

22             MR. MISETIC:  At paragraph -- let me see.  This is, again, a

23     report by the Secretary-General, and it is passing along your periodic

24     report.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if I look at the transcript again, that "460"

Page 6584

 1     is corrected into "460," instead of "640."

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  At page 33, please.

 4        Q.   Paragraph 127, the paragraph is in the context of the issue of

 5     the property rights and the Croatian property law as an area of concern.

 6     The last sentence says:  "On the other hand, the government of Croatia

 7     should be given credit for positive steps it has taken in cooperation

 8     with international agencies to alleviate the humanitarian plight of

 9     Croatian Serbs still residing in the form still Sectors West, North, and

10     South, many of whom are elderly."

11             If we go to page 37, paragraph 148, the second sentence begins:

12     "The Republic of Croatia has continuously engaged in constructive

13     cooperation with international entities including the Special Rapporteur

14     and the office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.  Croatia's

15     recent acceptance of the presence of an OSCE mission, which will pay

16     special attention to the question of minority rights, is another

17     demonstrations of this cooperation."

18             And then let me call up your January 1998 report, Mrs. Rehn,

19     which is P651 MFI'd.  You will note this is the 14 January 1998 report

20     that you submitted.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Page 9 of the report, please.

22             At paragraph 28, you say, in the middle:  "The Special Rapporteur

23     wishes, once again, to thank the Croatian authorities for their

24     constructive cooperation throughout the duration of her mandate."

25             Then at paragraph 29, which a section entitled, "Security of

Page 6585

 1     person and property in the former sectors":  "After more than two years

 2     of observing human rights trends in Croatia, the Special Rapporteur is of

 3     the opinion that while more still needs to be accomplished, there are

 4     good reasons for optimism for the future.  When she first took up her

 5     mandate in 1995, serious violations of human rights and humanitarian law

 6     were reported to have occurred during and after Croatian military

 7     operations in the summer of that year, when the government seized back

 8     control over formerly Serb-held territory.  These violations, many of

 9     which evidently were carried out by Croatian soldiers, had involved

10     killings of civilians, massive looting and burning, and attacks on

11     fleeing civilians and refugees.

12             "According to information recently received from the government,

13     as of October 1997, a total of 5.580 criminal proceedings had been

14     carried out in relation to the military operations carried out in the

15     former Sectors North and South, of which 559 are at the investigative

16     stage, 3.785 are in the first instance proceedings, and 1.236 have been

17     brought through to final decisions."

18             MR. MISETIC:  And then the next page, please.

19        Q.   Paragraph 34 is talking about the situation in eastern Slavonia.

20     In the middle of the paragraph, you write:  "Prior to the conclusion of

21     the UNTAES mandate, on 15 January 1998, Croatian authorities were trying

22     to encourage Croatian Serbs to remain in the region.  However, the

23     widespread fear and uncertainty among members of the Serb population

24     reportedly led to a number of departures from the region, mainly for the

25     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, although it difficult to ascertain

Page 6586

 1     whether such departures are intended to be permanent."

 2             Mrs. Rehn, I have shown you some of the statements over the

 3     course of 1995, 1996, and to January 1998.  Is it fair to say that you

 4     saw improvement that led to you say in your January 1998 report that

 5     there were -- well, more still needed to be accomplished.  There were

 6     good reasons for optimism for the future.

 7        A.   Oh, yes, because I had never hesitated to give or to pay credit

 8     to those steps that had been taken.  I think it is much more important

 9     then to also point out that those questions that still are open when you

10     also acknowledge the improvements and through my reports.  And if I would

11     make report today about Croatia, definitely it would be even much nicer.

12             So there was a clear development in direction to democracy.  It

13     was on my recommendation they institute the Ombudsman institution.  I was

14     very pleased about so many steps were taken.  But, of course, we are

15     talking now about what happened during the Operation Storm and

16     immediately after.  And, therefore, I have been forced to tell also very,

17     very brutal things about the situation.  But improvement has been there,

18     as clearly stated in my reports.

19        Q.   Okay.  And just with respect to the statistics that you cited, I

20     know you have said in your statements that you never were able to verify

21     the statistics.  But you don't have any recollection of ever having asked

22     for the underlying court files, to look at the court files in order to

23     investigate the numbers for yourself.  Is that correct?

24        A.   This is very important question, because I have asked it to --

25     from my myself, that did we, the team, ask for documents from court

Page 6587

 1     procedures, and I cannot answer that question because I'm almost sure

 2     that my team asked for it.  But just, here, in the witness stand, I

 3     cannot surely say it.  So it is not only because of the lack of interest

 4     from the officials of Croatia that we perhaps didn't get it.  Perhaps we

 5     even didn't ask for these documents forceful enough.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Do you think, based on your experience as the Special

 7     Rapporteur and the fact that you wrote many reports, do you think that if

 8     you, in fact, had asked the Croatian government for such documents and

 9     they didn't provide it to you, would that have been something that would

10     have been included in one of your reports?

11        A.   Certainly, it would have been.  It would have been included.  So,

12     in had a sense, it is more likely that we didn't forcefully enough ask

13     for the documents.

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, Mrs. Rehn.

15             I'd like to turn to the area of citizenship rights, page 7

16     and 8 - and I will try to finish this before we leave today -- 7 and 8 of

17     your statement.

18             You say, beginning on the bottom:  "I have no doubt that the

19     practical administrative obstacles faced by the Serb refugees in

20     attempting to return were purposely crafted by the Croatian authorities

21     difficult and to discourage the Serbs from returning.  I have no doubt

22     that the Croatian administration of the time did not readily welcome the

23     idea of the return of the Serb refugees who had fled as a consequence of

24     Operation Storm.  Under the subheading, 'Humanitarian and social issues,'

25     I address the issue of denial of citizenship rights to long-term

Page 6588

 1     residents of Croatia.  They were predominantly Serbs."

 2             First, do you recall which Serbs who were residents of Croatia

 3     were denied citizenship?

 4        A.   Would you --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Let me find --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Would you put your question to me again,

 7     because I didn't get the point, I guess.

 8             MR. MISETIC:

 9        Q.   Let me show you actually where this comes from.  It's from that

10     last report that we just looked at.

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go back to that, Mr. Registrar, P651.

12             Now, if we could go to the next page, please, and then if we

13     could go to page 11, please, and if we could scroll down.

14        Q.   That portion of your statement comes from this portion of your

15     report of 1998 at paragraph 39 at the bottom.  You are talking about

16     Eastern Slavonia, and the second to last sentence on that page says:

17     "Some 140.000 citizenship papers and 126.000 passports have been issued

18     to residents in the region," the region being Eastern Slavonia.

19     "However, concern remains over some 900 denials of citizenship pending

20     for many months ..." --

21             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to the next page.

22        Q.   " ... in administrative tribunals which need to be effectively

23     resolved?"

24             On the issue of the citizenship, Croatia, as you say in your own

25     report, had, in fact, issued 140.000 citizenship papers to residents in

Page 6589

 1     Eastern Slavonia.

 2        A.   In even Slavonia, yes.

 3        Q.   And there was a problem with approximately 900 denials.  Correct?

 4     Are you aware of what the basis of the problem was in getting those 900

 5     people citizenship?

 6        A.   What I have been especially talking about in my statements and in

 7     my recalling, because I was not involved approximate Easter Slavonia, in

 8     that sense, we had UNTAES administration and I thought that it would be

 9     quite appropriate for me that just involve myself too much in what was

10     the administration there.  Of course, I visited the area.

11             But my problem was the citizenships and to show, and we have

12     proved of the documents of those who left Sectors North and South during

13     Operation Storm, because many of them lost their papers, ID cards.  There

14     were a lot of difficulties for them to just prove that they are citizens

15     of Croatia.  And those were the persons that I was especially worried

16     about.  I know there was hundreds of them waiting on the Hungarian side

17     to get the papers.  They had to go to Belgrade to get some of the papers.

18     And it was practically very difficult for them when trying to get back

19     their property, because they had a 90 days limit within which they should

20     claim for property.

21             So all these were, so to say, attached to each other, and that is

22     what I mostly referred to in my written statement.

23        Q.   We have three minutes.

24        A.   Okay.  Sorry.  Let's make it quick.

25        Q.   I am sorry for interrupting you, but I do want to finish this

Page 6590

 1     topic today.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  If we could, Mr. Registrar, call up 1D40-0082.

 3        Q.   If you can tell me whether you know, yes or no, but are you aware

 4     that in Croatia in this time-period, meaning 1996, 1997, 1998, and

 5     previously, a persons citizenship was established by amongst other things

 6     his birth records in his local registry office in his local town.  Are I

 7     aware of that?

 8        A.   Yes.  And I know, too, that those who had overtaken Krajina for

 9     that are period when they were born, children were born in the Krajina,

10     they often didn't have papers at all because it was not a registered

11     city -- region.

12        Q.   This is under the citizenship law and the form a person would

13     fill out.  And as you can see, the date of these rules wasn't established

14     in 1995, it was 8 January 1992.

15             MR MISETIC:  If we could scroll down, please.

16        Q.   The record -- it says:  The records on citizenship have been

17     entered in a register of citizens of the Registry office of, and in the

18     municipality of," et cetera.

19             And now if I could show you next document, which is 1D40-0098.

20             Mrs. Rehn, this is a protocol between Serbia and Croatia in 2003.

21     If you look at it, it's protocol of takeover where the government of

22     Serbia returns to Croatia, and you can go to the next pages, for the

23     benefit of the Court, the local registers that had been removed from

24     Croatia in 1995 and previously.  There are literally hundreds of town

25     registers that were returned in 2003.

Page 6591

 1             Can we go to the next page, please.

 2             Including the town of Knin, various towns in Sector South.  It

 3     gives you what years we're talking about.

 4             Were you aware at the time you were preparing your reports that

 5     Croatia had no central depository of information concerning individuals'

 6     birth records or other records necessary to establish citizenship?

 7        A.   In the material that you have, I have mentioned somewhere - I

 8     can't find it now - that one of the obstacles was that they had to go to

 9     Belgrade to get their papers.  It was told by some of the ministers,

10     Susak or Jarnjak.

11        Q.   And my last question for today is:  Having examined I assume as

12     part of your work as the Human Rights Rapporteur the fact that the

13     Serbian population left, does the fact that the authorities in Serbia

14     wound up in possession of hundreds of town registers of birth would that

15     indicate to that you there was a certain level of organisation to the

16     departure of the Krajina Serbs?

17        A.   I don't think that I should make any kind of -- of estimates on

18     what was the truth.  I know that there have been just a demand or

19     whatever from the Serb side from Serb leaders that you should leave, and

20     I know that President Tudjman asked the Serb population to stay.  But I

21     have seen in so many other war zones in the world that whatever is told

22     you that, please stay, everything is okay.  People don't believe it when

23     they are just taken by the mass psychosis that, I'm afraid something

24     terrible will happen.

25             So I think that both sides were not efficient enough or one side

Page 6592

 1     was too efficient.

 2        Q.   Thank you Mrs. Rehn.  I would tender, Your Honour, both of these

 3     documents into evidence and I conclude for today.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document ID 1D40-0082 becomes

 8     Exhibit number D686.  Document ID 1D40-0098 becomes Exhibit number D687.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D686 and D687 are admitted into evidence.

10             Mr. Misetic, you said this was your last question for the day.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Right.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What about tomorrow?

13             MR. MISETIC:  We've reached agreement that I will finish by the

14     first session.  The Cermak and Markac teams will take the second session

15     and that will leave us the full third session for re-direct and questions

16     from the Bench.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That is more than sufficient, Mr. President.

19     I don't think I'll --

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, just so we're clear.  For me, I'm

21     not sure of the exact timing, but I will have at least one hour, if not

22     an hour and a half.  Just so the Court is aware of how much time I have

23     planned.

24             MR. KAY:  To assist the Court, a number of matters have been

25     dealt with already by Mr. Misetic.  So our issues are narrowing to under

Page 6593

 1     half an hour at the moment.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So that means that we stay within the one hour and a

 3     half for each session.  Ms. Rehn, this is also important for you to know,

 4     I would say.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Because there is a fair chance that we'll conclude

 7     your testimony tomorrow.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Thanks God.  Or you're not the God.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Apart from that, it is the parties, Mrs. Rehn,

10     who give this information.  We will adjourn for the day.  We will resume

11     tomorrow, Wednesday, the 16th of July, 9.00, in this same courtroom.

12             But I'd first like to instruct you, Mrs. Rehn, that you should

13     not speak about the testimony, whether already given or still to be

14     given.

15             We stand adjourned.

16                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th of July,

18                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.