1 Wednesday, 16 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Before I give you an opportunity, Mr. Misetic, to continue your
13 cross-examination, there are a few procedural matters which I would like
14 to deal with very quickly, the first one in private session.
15 Mrs. Rehn, you'll not know what I'm talking about anyhow, so,
16 therefore, there's no need to ask you to leave the courtroom.
17 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
18 There was a request to know as quickly as possible about the
19 documents filed in relation to Mrs. Rehn by the Prosecution. Therefore,
20 looking at the list provided by Mr. Registrar, where he gives a total
21 survey of all the pending bar table requests, starting at number 142. I
22 don't know whether you have that list at hand.
23 The first one, 142, was already in evidence. That was D669, so
24 that is clear; the second one, 2710, was already admitted into evidence
25 as P639, if I'm not mistaken, Ms. Mahindaratne; then number 147, 4312,
1 was admitted into evidence, under seal, as P643.
2 What then remains is 144, which is 65 ter 2820; 145, which
3 is 4102; 146, which is 4128; we dealt already with 147; 148, 4332. I do
4 understand that there's no need for confidentiality here, so that this is
5 a mistake that the confidential box is -- yes, it can be admitted.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It is as a public document.
8 Then we have 149, 4367; 150, 4371; 151, 4394; 152, 4450; 153,
9 4453; 154 on this list is 65 ter 5318; and 155 is 3332.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: I hear that although we discussed 4312, that no
12 decision finally has been taken to admit this exhibit which appears as
13 number 147 on the list. The Chamber admits into evidence the numbers I
14 just mentioned, 144 up to and including 155; 147 is admitted under seal;
15 all the other documents are admitted into evidence as public documents.
16 The numbers were already assigned, that is, P640 up to and including
17 P642, public; P643, under seal; P644 up to and including P651, all
18 admitted as public exhibits.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I just point out document
20 number which is now marked as P650, that is, 65 ter number 5318, has been
21 admitted on a previous occasion - I pointed that out yesterday - under
22 Exhibit Number P477. I placed that on record yesterday.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I must have overlooked that, Ms. Mahindaratne.
24 My apologies for that.
25 Mr. Registrar, will we forget P650 and use that at a later stage,
1 rather than now changing the numbers.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that that number will be skipped.
4 Mrs. Rehn, this is not a bookkeeping session, but we have to deal
5 with some formalities now and then. Apologies and thank you for your
6 patience. May I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn
7 declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.
8 THE WITNESS: Of course, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Misetic, are you ready to proceed?
11 MR. MISETIC: I am, Your Honour. Thank you, Mr. President.
12 WITNESS: ELISABETH REHN [Resumed]
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, again, Mrs. Rehn.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. I would like to start this morning's session by taking you to
17 page 2 of your statement - page 2 and 3, I should say - discussing some
18 of the things that you say in your statement you personally observed. At
19 the bottom paragraph on page 2, in the middle of the paragraph, you say:
20 "These included a number of visits to Sector South. On these visits, I
21 observed the Croatian military looting civilian property."
22 If we could stop there. Do you recall where you saw Croatian
23 military looting, in what town and when?
24 A. As told in my report and in the -- in the different notes that
25 have been taken during the visits, there are several villages that I went
1 to, and I can't recall the names. I'm very sorry for that. My first
2 visit was together with two -- to the Sector North in 1995, October,
3 together with two UNMOs, a Norwegian and a Kenyan. And they took me
4 around to look at what was happening there on the ground. I visited some
5 houses. There was a paralyzed woman who had been shot at through her
6 window --
7 JUDGE ORIE: May I interrupt you.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry for interrupting. I think as a matter
10 that Mr. Misetic is defending a case which is exclusively located in
11 Sector South, so, therefore, just in terms of using our time --
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, okay. Okay. Sorry. I understand that.
13 Because for me, of course, this is a whole with what I have experienced.
14 So, in Sector South, I went a few times to the town of Knin
15 the villages around there that I can't mention. I can't remember the
16 names. I'm sorry, but I'm very bad with names; it's good if I remember
17 my own one. Therefore, I only have to state that it was during several
19 And I also want to remind you about the method of my work in
20 minutes, in the reports we have mentioned, high-level persons,
21 politicians, others I have met with. Although, the most people I met
22 with were at a grass-roots level going in and out of houses, talking with
23 both Croats and a few Serbs that were returning, and seeing what I saw.
24 So these lootings were something I observed there around Knin and also in
25 other villages.
1 MR. MISETIC:
2 Q. Just so that we clarify this point. Is this something that
3 you -- information you received from other people, or are you saying that
4 you were present while you saw military people looting houses?
5 A. I saw military people looting houses; and as I have corrected
6 afterwards in -- I think in my second statement, that, of course, I can't
7 go on oath on that they were military because something I learned also in
8 other parts of the former Yugoslavia
9 you could get them. So it could be civilians that are having military
10 uniforms. On the other hand, the vehicles were much pointing on the fact
11 that it must have been, and it was in my mind quite clear that it should
12 be military persons.
13 Q. Okay. Would that have been something that would have -- you
14 would have put in one of your reports that you personally eye-witnessed
15 military trucks with people looting --
16 A. I think it is already in some of the minutes that I saw this, and
17 also in my statement, because all over you could see trucks where men
18 were taking different items from houses, starting with windows and window
19 frames and fridges and so on. So that was what happened on several
20 occasions around -- when I was travelling around.
21 Q. But I'm not asking about the minutes of meetings or your witness
22 statement here. I'm asking you in your reports to the Secretary-General,
23 do you -- if you had personally eye-witnessed soldiers looting and
24 military trucks present, that would be something important enough to
25 include in one of your reports. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, of course. And I must say that I believe that it is also
2 stated, but perhaps it should have been, because we always talked in the
3 "we" format: The UN, the units saw, and the staff saw, and so on. So we
4 never pointed out especially my own role. I was one of "we."
5 Q. Now, if I could turn to your supplemental statement at
6 paragraph 12, you say: "Almost every Serb house was vandalized with the
7 word "Chetnik."
8 Where was this?
9 A. Especially in Knin and there around. It was so clear, the hate,
10 when I talked with Croatian people, the enormous hate to those who
11 perhaps would be returning, the Serbs. They didn't want them to come
12 back. And then as an opposite, on every Croat house, there was the Croat
13 chequer-board flag showing that here are real people living.
14 Q. So you have a personal memory of every house -- almost every Serb
15 house in Knin having the word "Chetnik" written on it?
16 A. So many of these houses had it. It would be exaggeration to say
17 that every house, because it was impossible for me to know which houses
18 were left by Serbs. But too many of them had this red "Chetnik" on them.
19 Q. In your statement, you say: "I remember we had to be careful
20 when going into the Serbian villages because we had been told of
21 occasions when Serbian houses had been booby-trapped to blow up if the
22 Serbs attempted to return."
23 First, who gave you that information?
24 A. It was given to me by, of course, my own staff - and when I'm
25 talking about "my own staff," it is the staff of the United Nations
1 Commission for Human Rights - but also by military I spoke with, and my
2 security major that was from Finland
3 was very keen of my security. He thought that it would be not absolutely
4 necessary for me to step into a booby-trap. So, therefore, he collected
5 information from police, from military.
6 And there was a clear warning. One house I went to I had to -- I
7 was especially warned about because there had been a return by Serbs who
8 were not allowed to go to the house. They had to live in the animals'
9 hamlet together with some animals, and it was a nasty situation. But, of
10 course, I went to that house but I was told to be very careful.
11 Q. Okay. So you have -- you don't know whether houses were actually
12 booby-trapped; this is something that was just told to you?
13 A. No, of course, I couldn't, because if I would have stepped into
14 one booby-trap, then I should have known that there is one. But I did
15 not do that.
16 Q. I'm asking you for examples. Did you subsequently receive any
17 information that there was ever a house that had been booby-trapped --
18 A. Oh, yes. I got the information, and especially through my
19 security advisor, that be careful because it has been told by UN staff
20 that there have been booby-traps. And, of course, I met also with a
21 couple who had moved in and got immediately a bomb, some grenade,
22 something, thrown into their house. So the man was in hospital, and the
23 woman had quite serious injuries when she told us about how lovely the
24 neighbours are.
25 Q. Where was the booby-trapped -- where were the booby-trapped
1 houses, in what villages or towns?
2 A. As I told you earlier, it was in the Knin region around, but I
3 can't remember the names of the villages.
4 Q. Do you remember the agency or UN organization that passed this
6 A. No. As I told you, we had for every visit there was discussions
7 around with all the internationals because we exchanged information to
8 each other. This is, of course, a way that United Nations bodies are
9 working. It was very important for human rights people to know from the
10 military part and from the police which are the security risks. So this
11 was information that was given from one agency to another, so that we
12 were, so to say, all on the same track and were aware of. Also, the
13 European Union bodies were involved in the discussions.
14 Q. Do you have the name of any individual we could speak to, to try
15 to verify where this information came from? Do you have any
17 A. I could imagine that those who are -- were working at that time
18 in the staff can verify it.
19 Q. Who -- on your staff you mean?
20 A. In my staff.
21 Q. And what are the names of the people who were working on your
22 staff? I don't think we established that yet.
23 A. There were a lot of them. Of course, Roman Wieruszewski was the
24 head of all this. I have a very bad copy. Then we had Mamadi Diakite
25 who has been mentioned earlier. One person that was very much involved
1 in these who was local secretariat assistance was Mr. Sasa Milosevic, and
2 then also Susan Ashoor who was local. Ravinder Joshi was there. Then
3 from -- sometimes we had people coming from other parts of our mission in
5 was a good team of people who assisted each other. So there are some of
6 the names.
7 Q. Okay. Sasa Milosevic you mentioned. Sasa Milosevic on your team
8 was from the Serbian Helsinki Committee; is that correct?
9 A. No, not to my knowledge. He was working for us as a secretarial
10 assistance local. He can be nowadays perhaps, I don't know. I haven't
11 heard about him since I left.
12 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 1D40-0081.
13 Q. This relates, Mrs. Rehn, to the portion of your 7 November 1995
14 report at paragraph 1. You refer to a couple thousand Croatian Serbs
15 awaiting return from Hungary
16 in your testimony as well.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This is a news article from 22nd of September, 1995, about this
19 issue, and it says: "Croatian police has barred nine elderly Serbs from
20 returning to their homes in Croatia
21 Commission for Human Rights said on Friday. The group was stopped at
22 Terezino Polje north-eastern Croatia
23 committee said. But it was not immediately clear when the border
24 incident happened."
25 Then it goes on: "'We have sent letters to the Croatian
1 government as well as the Croatian office for refugees about the group,
2 but they have not replied,' said Petar Mrkalj, the director of the
3 Croatian branch of the Helsinki
4 Now, that was on the 22nd of September; and in your 7 November
5 1995 report where you discuss at paragraph 41 this issue about the
6 Croatian Serbs being at the Hungarian border, in the appendix it reports
7 that, on Thursday 12 October, you met with Petar Mrkalj, who's mentioned
8 in this article. And my question to you is: At least as of 22nd
9 September 1995, Mr. Mrkalj is telling agency France-Presse that the
10 number of Serbs in Hungary
11 wondering if you could tell us where the number of thousands of Serbs at
12 the Hungarian border, where you had arrived at that number.
13 A. That is an information I have got from the leadership of my
14 office and through also the Eastern Slavonia people working there. So I
15 could imagine that the word at the border is not perhaps an accurate
16 saying; but in Hungary
17 must totally agree with you, counsel, that it was not exact.
18 But the information I got then through, again, my staff was that
19 people are waiting in Hungary
20 thousands who are waiting to get their papers -- papers in order. And
21 that was, of course, everything. Everything was in connection to the
22 property rights, as I have told earlier. It was not so much a question
23 of getting your nationality confirmed.
24 You are totally right that it was in Belgrade, as I also told.
25 You should go to Belgrade
1 the time-limit to get, to claim for your property --
2 Q. Mrs. Rehn --
3 A. -- that was short, and, therefore, it was so important to look
4 into the situation that people are waiting somewhere to get to -- to get
6 Q. Okay. But just so that we're clear now, what you're saying is
7 you're not sure of how many people were in Hungary actually waiting to
8 come --
9 A. No. I'm quite sure that they were in Hungary. But at the
10 border, that is certainly an exaggeration, because when you talk about
11 the border, then you are just standing there at the check-point waiting
12 to come. And there could have be nine; certainly, there are nine, as it
13 is told here. But, in Hungary
14 entrance to come back again.
15 Q. Would again we have to speak with your staff to figure out where
16 these numbers come from?
17 A. Yes, absolutely. And in everything -- almost everything that I
18 haven't seen with my own eyes, you have to talk with my staff, because I
19 have to remind you, once again, that this was a mission with the Special
20 Rapporteur. Sometimes even Special Rapporteurs have never visited the
21 country they are reporting on when they are not allowed to go there. But
22 in my case, I really went there very often.
23 But all the other information was gathered by the staff, then
24 discussed by us, and I looked into it that it is safe information that
25 you can put in a report. And as with the meaning of the report is to
1 raise awareness with the governments, the different governments I
2 covered. I think it was a very good way of a method. Even looking
3 at now, if I still may say, that we achieved our purpose with a lot of
4 answers, very good, very strong, very detailed answers, from the
5 governments that led also to steps to be taken.
6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Rehn. Please don't take this as being rude. I'm
7 just --
8 A. No. I have seen more rude people in my time than you.
9 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you to, if you can, keep your
10 answers a bit shorter, so that we can get all through --
11 A. Okay. That is my interest.
12 Q. That is what I was about to say. Thank you.
13 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would tender this exhibit into
14 evidence, please.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D688, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D688 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. MISETIC:
20 Q. Mrs. Rehn, at page 4 of your statement, you refer to the
21 Secretary-General's report from December 1995, and it says: "On page 5,
22 the estimated figure of destroyed houses of 5.000 was an estimate
23 obtained from the collected information from the international
24 organizations including my own office. I witnessed myself many burned
25 houses in the Krajina region."
1 The number of 5.000 burned houses, that was both Sectors North
2 and South; correct?
3 A. I would think so.
4 MR. MISETIC: Now, let's turn to that report which is P477, and
5 if we could go to page 4 of that document, please.
6 Q. Now, at paragraph 14, here's what the Secretary-General reports.
7 He says: "It is not possible to provide the exact number of houses
8 destroyed by fire in former Sectors North and South; although, the
9 estimated total is in excess of 5.000. Based on observations by teams
10 patrolling throughout the Krajina, the ECMM estimates that in rural
11 areas, 60 per cent of the homes in former Sector South and 30 per cent of
12 the in former Sector North have been destroyed by fire. United Nations
13 military observers visited 389 villages in Sector South and found that,
14 out of 21.744 houses, 16.857 had been destroyed by fire or had sustained
15 some damage; although, this figure includes damage from before 'Operation
17 Now, both the Secretary-General and you in your statement use the
18 figure of 5.000, rather than relying on the UNMO figure of 16.857. Is
19 that because you were unable to determine from the numbers that been
20 provided by UNMO which of those houses had been destroyed before and
21 which after Operation Storm?
22 A. I think it is just the reason why we took this quite careful
23 standpoint that not exaggerate in any case. It was very difficult
24 altogether to make any kind of estimate on what was the actual amount of
25 houses destroyed during Operation Storm. As you rightly just pointed
1 out, that there were houses destroyed also earlier and burnt down, even
2 if certainly forensic experts can tell when something has been burnt, is
3 it today or several years ago.
4 Q. But you had -- when you were preparing your reports, you had
5 access to the ECMM analysis of houses or structures destroyed by fire or
6 that had sustained some damage before preparing your reports; is that
8 A. Oh, yes, of course.
9 Q. And if I understood your testimony correctly, you didn't use
10 those numbers because you didn't want to be exaggerating anything?
11 A. Yes. And as we didn't exactly know how much was a result of the
12 Operation Storm and what had happened already earlier. I think that and
13 I would remember that we decided in this international community to be --
14 to really take this amount of plus/minus 5.000 as at least showing that
15 it was a lot of houses because 5.000 is really a big amount of
16 destroyment. So I would say that was the reason.
17 Q. Okay. And looking at paragraph 14 of the Secretary-General's
18 report, does that refresh your recollection, when you were having these
19 conversations about using the 5.000 plus/minus number, that was intended
20 to be a number combined for both Sectors North and South? Is that
22 A. I would be lying if I said that I'm recalling this, but I could
23 find it possible.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you.
25 MR. MISETIC: Staying with this report, if we could go to --
1 oh, sorry. It's the -- I'm sorry.
2 Q. I need to take you back to the 7 November 1995 report.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, have you dealt with these numbers
4 because then I would have --
5 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- an additional question.
7 You said we didn't want to exaggerate. Now, we see a number of
8 5.000, we see a number of over 15.000. Was it that you considered the
9 higher number to be an exaggerates, or did you want to give such
10 conservative numbers so as to avoid a risk of exaggeration? Which of the
11 two was it?
12 THE WITNESS: I would rather say that it was the risk of
13 exaggeration that we were afraid of, because we wanted to be very in one
14 way modest with what we said. It gave a better base to also demand steps
15 when there was not a risk of exaggeration. But I have to say that these
16 figures, they are not putting any bells ringing in my mind, in my head,
17 in my memory, because as you well know these reports are filled with
18 details and it's some time ago.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's understood.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
21 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to P639, please, and if we could
22 go to page 6 of this document, please.
23 Q. Now, Mrs. Rehn, at paragraph 11, you talk about "the temporary
24 suspension of the constitutional law on human rights and freedoms and the
25 rights of national and ethnic minorities -- communities or minorities in
1 the Republic of Croatia
2 Towards the middle, it says: "The decision to suspend articles
3 which guarantee the special status of districts predominantly populated
4 by national minorities, create separate educational institutions, and
5 secure proportional representation in the parliament, government, and
6 judiciary, places a question mark over the attitude of the Croatian
7 authorities towards national minorities in general and the Serbian
8 minority in particular."
9 And then at paragraph 12: "The Special Rapporteur also notes
10 with concern that Article 60 of the above-mentioned law establishing the
11 Provisional Human Rights Court has been suspended."
12 Now -- and back to paragraph 11, there's a sentence in there that
13 says -- referring now to the constitutional law on human rights, it says:
14 "Although that law was never fully implemented, it nevertheless provided
15 national minorities with important legal guarantees."
16 My first question to you was: Did the phrase "never fully
17 implemented," do you recall whether any portion of that law was ever
19 A. No, I cannot recall it.
20 Q. Are you aware that under the law, there were supposed to be
21 special districts created essentially in what were former Sectors North
22 and Sectors South for the ethnic Serb community?
23 A. It's possible; but as I said, I can't recall exactly what was
24 meant to be in this law.
25 Q. Do you recall in your conversations with your interlocutors in
1 the Croatian government that them ever telling you or writing to you that
2 the law couldn't be implemented after Operation Storm because the Serbian
3 population had left?
4 A. This -- I have copies, I believe, of all the letters written to
5 me, and it was not mentioned in these letters.
6 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that under that law, all
7 institutions at the local level and at the -- what was referred to as the
8 Kotar level or the administration level, the police departments, they all
9 had to reflect an ethnic composition equal to the ethnic composition of
10 the area in 1991?
11 A. I really hope that it was meant to be so. I myself am a
12 representative of a minority in my own country, and I know exactly how
13 important it is to have the rights for minorities written into the law.
14 Q. Well, speaking of this specific allow, though, are you aware --
15 I'll give you an example just to provide you with the numbers. If a
16 particular town had 70 per cent Serbs and 30 per cent Croats, are you
17 aware that this law required that seven police officers in the police
18 station had to be Serb and three police officers had to be Croats?
19 A. Yes, yes. That is very much in line with other laws regarding
20 minorities, including my own country.
21 Q. And teachers in schools, if there were 70 per cent Serbs, it
22 required seven out of every ten teachers in the schools had to be Serbs?
23 A. I understand what you are looking to, when the Serbs left, it was
24 not actual to implement this law. On the other hand, to postpone it
25 meant too that they didn't count on the Serb citizens to be quickly back
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, may I ask a question.
3 May I go back to the previous question. Mr. Misetic asked you
4 whether you were aware that this was a component of that law.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Your answer said, more or less at least as I
7 understood it, that that would be logical because it would reflect what
8 we find elsewhere as well. The question, however, was whether you knew
9 that this law contained these kind of provisions.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. Because we discussed it, of course, that
11 it was a question of getting the balance between the majorities and
12 minorities in the official bodies.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So you were aware --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- of these provisions to be part of that
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. MISETIC:
21 Q. Would you agree with me that even in that short-term period, as
22 the security situation in Sectors North and South was poor, that this law
23 provided an additional complicating factor and that by law all the
24 institutions had to be set up with Serbs participating at all levels of
25 government in those areas? Would you agree with that?
1 A. Yes. And, therefore, too we are not strong in our wordings. We
2 are noting with concern.
3 Q. Okay. With respect to your reference to Article 60 of the law
4 which establishes a provisional human rights court, are you aware that
5 such a court never came into existence?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And are you aware that the reason it never came into existence is
8 that, in the law itself, it requires an international agreement between
9 the republics of the former Yugoslavia
10 A. I think so. I certainly was aware of this then.
11 Q. And --
12 A. For me, this part of the rights were very strongly focused on the
13 Ombudsman office, and that I was very pleased that could be established,
14 as I told you yesterday, very much on my insistence.
15 Q. And you will recall, and I think there's -- it's in some of the
16 documents that have been tendered through the Prosecution, that Croatia
17 told you that it was not going to establish a separate provisional human
18 rights court because Croatia
19 and was, therefore, of the opinion that the European Court of Human
20 Rights was itself a human right's court that would have jurisdiction?
21 A. Yes. And as I told the Court, therefore we expressed ourselves
22 with concern and that was something we were concerned about, because at
23 that time we didn't know when the report was made what will be the
24 development of this situation.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 14 of this document, please.
2 Q. At paragraph 37 at the bottom, you discuss where you: " ... the
3 Special Rapporteur held discussions with the Croatian authorities
4 concerning the recently adopted law on the temporary take-over and
5 management of certain property. This law allows the Croatian authorities
6 to assume control over 'abandoned property' which may then be given to
7 Croatian displaced persons and refugees for 'temporary possession and
9 The last sentence then says: "The Special Rapporteur was
10 informed by the Croatian authorities that the purpose of the new law was
11 to protect abandoned property and to secure it for the possible return of
12 the legitimate owners."
13 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to the next page, please.
14 Q. At paragraph 38, there's a brief legal analysis of Croatian law,
15 and the second-to-last sentence says: "However, the law on the temporary
16 take-over and management of certain property constitutes a de facto
18 Do you recall the basis of your conclusion that that law amounts
19 to a de facto confiscation?
20 A. That's strongly based on my own experiences when talking to
21 people around, especially in Sector South around Knin, because those who
22 have tried to return and were already there, the Serbs, they had already
23 their houses occupied. I understand quite well that Croatian government
24 had a lot of problems with those who had escaped from Bosnia and
1 population of refugees. But what was absolutely unacceptable was that
2 there were cases where Croatians, who had their home, their house,
3 apartment, for instance, in Zagreb
4 those left by Serbs. And that was something that I experienced
5 personally, talked to them; and I have to say that I was not met very
6 nicely by the people who were occupying the houses.
7 And I think this was something that was unacceptable. If they
8 would have been compensated for their property, then it could have been
9 some kind of deal.
10 Q. Okay. So talking right to that issue of compensation, do you
11 know -- would you agree with me that a confiscation is a legal seizure
12 without compensation by the government republican authority? Would you
13 agree with that?
14 A. A confiscation, yes; but we thought that there were not grounds
15 for confiscation, and that it should have been -- perhaps, as I have said
16 earlier, I'm not a lawyer and I have difficulties with all these legal
17 expressions because you should have studied law to be able to work out
18 the right words for everything.
19 But what we were really concerned about was that people couldn't
20 move into their houses, somebody else was living there, and they didn't
21 have any hope of coming there without getting a compensation.
22 Q. Okay. You use the phrase de facto confiscation. By using the
23 phrase de facto confiscation, did you mean that it wasn't a de jure
25 A. Apparently.
1 Q. Do you know the difference between sequestration or sequester and
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could call up 65 ter 2502,
7 Q. Mrs. Rehn, this is a legal analysis of that law which may have
8 been sent to you in anticipation of the report that you were preparing.
9 Sasa Milosevic ...
10 MR. MISETIC: If we can turn to the next page of that document,
12 Q. ... whom you had referenced earlier is on the e-mail as the
13 person at the top. Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I can see it.
15 Q. And it's being forwarded -- this purports to be a legal analysis
16 of the Croatian property law. The cover page said it was forwarded to
17 the -- actually, Mr. Wieruszewski. It was to his attention, but also
18 Mr. Mautner Markhof, on 23 October 1995
19 If you look at the header, it's an e-mail, 6 October 1995,
20 forwarded to Sasa Milosevic of your staff, from the -- what appears to be
21 the Helsinki
22 Do you recall if the legal analysis in your report is based on a
23 legal analysis that had been drafted in Belgrade by the Serbian Helsinki
24 Committee, passed to Sasa Milosevic, and then passed to Mr. Wieruszewski
25 in anticipation of your report?
1 A. I have no memory of this paper. I wonder if I ever have seen it.
2 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would tender this document in
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the first thing is we haven't
6 got notice that this document was going to be tendered, and, therefore, I
7 haven't been able to look at this document. May I just have a moment.
8 Can this be taken up later on.
9 MR. MISETIC: It's a 65 ter, Your Honour, but I assume they
10 were --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, a 65 ter as such doesn't mean you are going to
12 use that as evidence, and I think the rule is that at the beginning of
13 the cross-examination, you inform the other party what they could expect
14 as far as documents to be used during cross-examination. So familiarity
15 with the document as such can be assumed, but awareness of it being used
16 at this moment cannot be assumed.
17 MR. MISETIC: That's correct, Your Honour. I apologise. I think
18 it was just --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, apart from that, the top seven lines --
20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, actually, I'm looking at the e-court
21 report and it was disclosed to them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, if that's the case, we lost one
23 minute for no good purpose.
24 MR. MISETIC: It's number 14 in the e-court list.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I don't have objection to the
1 admission. I've taken the time to quickly go through it, and I apologise
2 if I delayed the proceedings.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.
4 Mr. Misetic, the copy or the scanned version, but perhaps I
5 should address Ms. Mahindaratne, leaves out a bit of the left margin, and
6 since we find Sasa Milosevic once as "2" or perhaps the original "2," and
7 a few lines further down origin Sasa Milosevic, so he could have
8 forwarded it.
9 Could we have a complete copy of this document, so that we're
10 better able to understand what at least the document tells us, where it
11 comes from, and where it was sent to.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, during the break, I will
13 look at this and take care of it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I think we should marked for
15 identification for the time being. It's on the record. There are no
16 objections against admission, but the Chamber would like to see the
17 document from left to right. It further indicates, Ms. Mahindaratne,
18 that this is the second page out of eight. I don't know what series it
19 is in, and I don't know whether this's any relevance in the remaining
20 seven pages.
21 Mr. Registrar, this would be number ... ?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number D689, marked for identification,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
1 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mrs. Rehn, now we turn to page 4 of your statement. In the
3 second paragraph, again you're referring to the Secretary-General's
4 report, I believe, yes, of 18 October 1995
5 mentioned that the Croatian authorities have warned that against the
6 return of the Serbs to their homes in the Krajina because of an uncertain
7 security situation and have said that a mass return must await a final
8 political settlement."
9 Now, in October, you had conversations with UNHCR as well; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Mm-hmm.
12 Q. Is that a yes?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Rehn --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, we request you --
16 THE WITNESS: I was so deeply involved with the text that I was
17 only nodding.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a criticism.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. MISETIC:
21 Q. Mrs. Rehn, you are aware that the High Commissioner for Refugees
22 was Sadako Ogata at that time?
23 A. Oh, yes. We had a lot of good cooperation.
24 Q. Are you aware of what Mrs. Ogata's position was in October of
25 1995 with respect to mass returns?
1 A. No, I just can't recall it.
2 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could have 1D40-0054, please.
3 Q. And at the top, you will see that is a statement by Mrs. Ogata,
4 10 October 1995
5 International Conference for the former Yugoslavia.
6 MR. MISETIC: If we can turn to page 3 of this document, please.
7 Q. At the bottom paragraph, it says: "Allow me now to elaborate on
8 the issues of peace and the return of refugees."
9 Then there's an introduction.
10 MR. MISETIC: If we can go to the next page, please.
11 Q. The second paragraph -- the first full paragraph says: "In order
12 to carry out the return operation, I must emphasize the importance of
13 having internationally recognised humanitarian principles. First of all,
14 it must be voluntary. People must not be used as pawns. The interest of
15 every individual refugee should be the motivating force behind any
16 repatriation process and not political considerations."
17 The next paragraph says: "Secondly, repatriation must take place
18 in an organized, phased manner. If it is to take place in dignity,
19 attention must be paid to ensuring that, for example, adequate
20 accommodation and basic essential services are available in the places of
21 return. "
22 Then the next paragraph: "I envisage the repatriation process
23 broadly taking place in three phases. The first should be the return of
24 displaced persons within Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia
25 initial post-settlement period, there are also likely to be further
1 population movements as a result of the territorial adjustments between
2 the parties."
3 Does that refresh your recollection as to what was being
4 discussed in these working groups on the former Yugoslavia and what
5 Mrs. Ogata may have been discussing with respect to the process of how
6 refugees were to return?
7 A. There is definitely no kind of contradiction between her policy
8 and what I have been reported on -- reporting on.
9 Q. I'm not --
10 A. Something that I find very important to mention is that the
11 returns, the voluntariness is really very important. But I met with Serb
12 refugees outside Belgrade
13 wanted to return. So as always, my reports are based on the ordinary,
14 real people, not how to move them like just something you are playing
15 games with. I'm not saying that Mrs. Ogata is doing that. But, though,
16 it was very important that whatever I reported on was coming out from the
17 feelings of the real grass-root level, not high politicians, not even
18 international organizations. Then I also have again to remind that a
19 Special Rapporteur is totally independent from the United Nations
21 Q. I -- you should never assume that I'm putting something to you
22 because I think it's in contradiction to what you've said. What I'm
23 asking about is the Croatian government's position as articulated in your
24 own witness statement.
25 A. Yes. And, here, it's very good where Madam is Ogata especially
1 mentioning this, that this must be voluntary and security must be
2 guaranteed. And that is what the Croatian authorities were not prepared
3 to give that guarantee at that time.
4 Q. What guarantee?
5 A. Of security at that time for the returnees.
6 Q. Because the security situation still had not been --
7 A. And especially because the Croatians there didn't want them to
9 Q. Okay. Well --
10 A. The neighbours didn't want them to come.
11 Q. The neighbours, okay. Now, what I'm asking you is on the issue
12 of the Croatian government saying that mass returns needed to await a
13 political settlement and for an improved security situation. That was
14 consistent with what UNHCR was putting forward at working groups on the
15 former Yugoslavia
16 A. Yes, in the way that as they couldn't provide and perhaps didn't
17 want to provide a strong security situation for the returnees. Just
18 because of that, of course they didn't want to go against their own
19 people, Croatian people who lived there, and didn't want them to come
20 back. This is very much a political settlement, as you said. They
21 didn't want to settle it. I know politicians so well, I have been myself
22 one. So I know they are looking into what the people, the voters, really
23 want you to do. And in this case, their own people, Croatian people who
24 was there in the villages, in town of Knin and so on, they didn't want
25 them to come back.
1 Q. Mrs. Rehn, I think we went through this yesterday, but after the
2 political settlement was achieved, by the time you filed your last report
3 you said that there was reason for optimism in light of what the Croatian
4 government had done after the political settlement was achieved; is that
6 A. Yes, several years or a couple of years later on. And today of
7 course they will be a member of the European Union soon, a fantastic
9 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender this document from the UNHCR
10 into evidence, please.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D690, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D690 is admitted into evidence.
15 Mr. Misetic, when Mrs. Rehn said the government and the
16 neighbours, before putting your next question, question, you said "the
17 neighbours," which as a matter of fact --
18 MR. MISETIC: Well, I will not at the transcript --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- the transcript doesn't reflect that. It says
20 "the," and then the word "neighbours" is left out. You repeated that
21 word and that's part an answer, and that's not how it should be done. If
22 you look at -- it's just that it was missing on the transcript. The word
23 "the" is there, but the word "neighbours" --
24 MR. MISETIC: I think we're referring to page 28, line 17, Your
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at page 28, line 18, it now reads "the,
3 MR. MISETIC: Oh, I see.
4 JUDGE ORIE: There you said "the neighbours."
5 MR. MISETIC: Yes, I got it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's good it's not on the record because
7 repeating the part of the answer which apparently is most welcome is
8 not -- comes down to comment.
9 MR. MISETIC: You inserted the word "Croatian government," and
10 that is not in the transcript, which is why I'm looking it up. She said
11 "the Croatians ..." --
12 JUDGE ORIE: "The Croatians."
13 MR. MISETIC: That's why I wanted to clarify, so that later on we
14 wouldn't have the misunderstanding, or I wanted to clarify what
15 "Croatians" meant.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, a few lines before it's "Croatian
17 authorities," and it's a clear reference to that, even if the word
18 "authorities" was not --
19 MR. MISETIC: No, again, I mean, I don't think that's what -- it
20 says: "The Croatian authorities were not prepared to give that guarantee
21 of security," and then she added: "... and especially because the
22 Croatians there didn't want them to come."
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then you asked: "What guarantee?" Then the answer
24 was: "... of security at the time for the returnees." That is clearly a
25 reference to the earlier line about guarantee, and --
1 MR. MISETIC: I distinguish, Your Honour, between being able to
2 provide a security guarantee and not wanting somebody -- but --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's leave it. If perhaps by not repeating
4 the answer at all, we avoid these kind of risks, or you asked what did
5 you mean by this or that. Please proceed.
6 MR. MISETIC: All right.
7 Q. Mrs. Rehn, I noted in your curriculum vitae that you were also
8 the chair of the democratization and human rights working table from 2004
9 to 2005 for the stability pact for south-east Europe; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As the chair of the democratization and human rights working
12 table, would that mean that you were involved in human rights issues
13 throughout the former Yugoslavia
14 A. No. The south-eastern Europe, so Albania
15 were included in this. So the stability pact for south-eastern Europe
16 was created in 1998 in Sarajevo
17 for democracy and so on. So then I covered the whole region of
18 south-eastern Europe
19 Q. All right. And this was in 2004?
20 A. I think that I started 2003 and left it in the beginning of 2005.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MR. MISETIC: Let me call up 1D40-0059.
23 Q. You will note on the cover page that this is a meeting of the
24 Security Council on the 5th of September, 2002.
25 MR. MISETIC: If we turn the page.
1 Q. In the right-hand column three paragraphs down, it says: "At the
2 meeting, the Security Council will hear a briefing by Mr. Hedi Annabi,
3 assistant Secretary-General for peacekeeping operations.
4 "I now give the floor to Mr. Annabi."
5 MR. MISETIC: And if we could go to page 5, please.
6 Q. The third full paragraph down, this is Mr. Annabi's presentation
7 to the Security Council, and he says -- now we're talking about mass
8 returns of refugees to Kosovo. He says: "In this context, recent
9 statements by Kosovo Serb internally displaced persons that they are
10 planning to block the crossing points on the administrative boundary line
11 with Kosovo later this month if they are not allowed to return en masse
12 are cause for concern. Although the impatience of internally displaced
13 persons is understandable, given the still delicate state of
14 inter-communal relations, any action along those lines would only be
15 counterproductive and would be harmful to the returns process.
16 "There cannot be artificial mass return. UNMIK's return policy
17 is based on the right of individual return in an organized way so that it
18 can be sustainable. This requires careful preparation on the ground to
19 ensure that the physical infrastructure - meaning houses, employment, and
20 access to public services - is in place to welcome the returnees. It
21 also requires a careful handling of relations with the neighbouring
22 Kosovo Albanian communities to diminish the potential for return-related
23 security incidents."
24 Now, as someone who not only covered Croatia but covered the
25 former Yugoslavia
1 human rights in the former Yugoslavia
2 specific structured return policy to bring Serbs back into Kosovo --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
4 MR. MISETIC:
5 Q. -- and that the United Nations itself was opposed to a policy of
6 mass return of Serbs to Kosovo; is that correct?
7 A. I think that we are going quite far now from the situation with
8 my reports when we talk about the returns of Serbs to Kosovo. Because
9 what I at least have learned studying conflicts in and around the world
10 with another -- other mission I had for UN, that one conflict is not
11 similar to another. And I have good respect for my old friend
12 Mr. Steiner, but we could, of course, refer to whichever presentation
13 from important persons. So this was a matter that certainly was very
14 important, found important, regarding Kosovo after the intervention and
15 the bombings and all these what happened there.
16 But I can't see that there should be any kind of contradiction
17 to, because I haven't been asking for mass returns myself. I have been
18 asking for security and to have voluntary returns. If there are many of
19 them, then it's okay. So I think that we have the same principles.
20 Q. My question again was: Were you aware as you were working on the
21 stability pact of the United Nations policy on mass return --
22 A. Of course, I was aware. I started -- this was 2002, yes, I
23 started in the end of 2003, and there were new guys who were in the
24 leadership of Kosovo mission UNMIK then.
25 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender this Security Council
1 document into evidence, please.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit Number D691, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D691 is admitted into evidence.
6 MR. MISETIC: I will finish by the break, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good to hear.
8 MR. MISETIC:
9 Q. Now I'd like to, because of your knowledge of the events of the
10 situation in Kosovo, call up 1D40-0484.
11 Mrs. Rehn, this is an OSCE report from December of 1999. It is
12 titled: "As Seen, As Told, part II." It is an OSCE analysis of what
13 happened between June and October of 1999 in Kosovo after the United
14 Nations and NATO entered Kosovo. I'm going to read you a few portions of
15 the foreword.
16 MR. MISETIC: The document itself is almost 400 pages so we have
17 not uploaded the entire document into evidence; although, it's available
18 if the Court and the Prosecution wish.
19 If we could turn to page 3, please.
20 Q. Although it's an OSCE report, the special representative of the
21 UN Secretary-General, Dr. Bernard Kouchner, prepared the foreword. He
22 was the Secretary-General's representative to Kosovo during this
24 And if you note at the beginning, Mr. Kouchner says: "This
25 report makes sobering reading. The human rights violations detailed by
1 the OSCE's Human Rights Division for the period June-October 1999 include
2 executions, abductions, torture, cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment,
3 arbitrary arrests, and attempts to restrict freedom of expression."
4 The last sentence in that paragraph says: "Such extensive
5 violations of fundamental human rights challenge everyone here and the
6 United Nations interim administration in Kosovo, who are striving to
7 create the rule of law and respect for human rights, to do more to
8 address the root causes of abuses."
9 The bottom paragraph on that page: "In many of the cases
10 documented by the OSCE in this report, there are serious indications that
11 the perpetrators of human rights violations are either members of the
12 former UCK, people passing themselves off as members of the former UCK,
13 or members of other armed Albanian groups."
14 Then it goes on: "In many cases, it has been so far impossible
15 to identify exactly those responsible."
16 MR. MISETIC: If we can go to the next page, please.
17 Q. Mr. Kouchner in the first full paragraph, second or third
18 sentence says: "We in UNMIK are taking concrete, practical steps to
19 prevent violations. Nevertheless, the United Nations international
20 civilian police and KFOR need to increase their already impressive
21 activities in Kosovo. Frequent and visible patrols and developing closer
22 ties to the community will help prevent violations and increase the
23 likelihood of arresting those suspected of committing human rights
25 MR. MISETIC: Then, finally, two pages up, not the next page but
1 the page after.
2 Q. The top of the page, it says: "The legacy of human rights
3 violations that occurred before, during, and after the conflict is a
4 heavy one. Recovering from a war is difficult enough, but the problems
5 are multiplied when the roots of the conflict are essentially a massive
6 and systematic disregard for human rights. This report underscores just
7 how difficult the task is. Vengeance and fear are all too common in
8 post-conflict Kosovo. This vengeance and fear has led to ongoing human
9 rights violations."
10 And then third paragraph: "We are deeply concerned about the
11 situation of minorities. A close look at the trend in crime shows a
12 clear improvement. A drop from 50 murders during each of the first weeks
13 to three murders last week cannot be ignored."
14 Now, I'm stop there.
15 Dr. Kouchner in Kosovo six months after the UN entered Kosovo
16 says: "A drop from 50 murders during each of the first weeks to three
17 murders last week cannot be ignored."
18 Are you aware in Croatia
19 South in August of 1995?
20 A. No, not just without having any kind of statistics here in front
21 of me; and, here again, I have to say with that all situations are very
23 Q. Okay. Let me --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I'll continue on here and then we can wrap up because I only
1 have --
2 A. Because this jump to Kosovo, very, very familiar to me, is a
3 little bit I wouldn't say disturbing but surprising perhaps.
4 Q. Let's continue on, Mrs. Rehn.
5 It goes on to say: "It is not fair to make comparisons with the
6 situation before or during the war. At that time, and for at least a
7 decade, there was a systematic policy of apartheid, a sub-human status,
8 or at least a sub-community status for Albanians in Kosovo. This is no
9 longer the case today. Perhaps it may seem just as bad today for the
10 Serbs or Roma who live in fear, who cannot move about freely or have to
11 find a way to protect their children, but it is no longer a matter of a
12 policy. All the parties in Kosovo, all leaders, Serbs and Albanians,
13 have stated their positions in favour of a multi-ethnic society and
14 co-existence among all communities.
15 "The crimes we see are the acts of individuals. No political
16 party has claimed responsibility for them. Their representatives in the
17 Kosovo Transitional Council have condemned these abuses every time, and
18 they themselves have expressed their concern over the acts of
19 intolerance. We cannot exclude the possibility of double talk, but we
20 cannot presuppose it either."
21 Let me wrap up by asking you this: Dr. Kouchner talks about how
22 the leaders talked about wanting a multi-ethnic society and co-existence
23 among all communities; and at the beginning of my cross-examination, we
24 played a tape of what President Tudjman had said to you on 4 December
25 1995. Do you agree with me then that what President Tudjman was
1 discussing there was reconciliation between Serbs and Croats; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you agree with me that it is of course, as Dr. Kouchner here
4 phrased it, it was possible that he was engaged in double talk and that
5 possibility can't be excluded but we shouldn't presuppose it either? Do
6 you agree with that?
7 A. Oh, yes. It's very similar to what I felt about my discussions
8 with President Tudjman and members of the Government of Croatia.
9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Rehn. Thank you for answering my questions.
10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender this exhibit into evidence.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President. May I just
12 request the Defence to upload the cover page of the document so that we
13 have a complete document available.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
15 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, quite frankly, when I downloaded this
16 years ago, it didn't have a cover page, and now the OSCE site was down
17 when I tried to find it this weekend. Certainly, I will try to find it.
18 It's on the internet or should be anyway.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That for the time is not an objection against
20 admission, then?
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President, no objection.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this becomes D692.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Ms. Rehn, Mr. Misetic stopped you when you expressed your
1 surprise about the comparison made. If you would like to add anything to
2 that, you're free to do so.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. I was -- is this working?
4 Yes, this is working. I was a little bit surprised because, as I said,
5 before every situation, every conflict unfortunately has similarities
6 with the suffering of civilians nowadays, but also they are quite
7 different. And when Mr. Kouchner, or should we call him Minister
8 Kouchner now, was the first SIG to take over at UNMIK, he had his talks
9 and that was quite obvious that he was upset about the situation and also
10 heard all these quite nice words from all the different parties.
11 Of course, if we should take a letter from today, so many years
12 later, that could be another tone in these. But there are so many
13 different situations. I'm only surprised that justice with Kosovo will
14 be brought -- brought to this trial. I could have many, many, many own
15 reports on the situation there now and earlier and so, but it's not the
16 case for this trial.
17 I only wanted to express my surprise.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 We'll have a break, but not until after I have formally admitted
20 into evidence D692. We'll resume at 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may, during the break, I
24 did take a look at the e-mail that we -- that the Defence moved to
25 tender, and it is, in fact, an eight-page document containing seven pages
1 of e-mail. I have no objections to its admission; however, we downloaded
2 the document from the system and it seems that the margin on the system
3 itself is not there. But we are now examining the original in the Word
4 to ensure that we could get a better copies.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If the parties could agree on who sent it and when
6 and to whom, then, of course, that would certainly assist. It's a bit of
7 analysis of the header which is a rather complicated one because it has
8 been forwarded apparently to another receiver.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's another point, Mr. President. I wasn't
10 clear based on the e-mail addresses as to whether, in fact, it was an
11 e-mail going from Helsinki Belgrade, but perhaps Mr. Misetic might
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's an e-mail, but a copy of this e-mail
14 apparently was sent by Telefax, because we also find the fax header
15 26th of October, if I remember well. So let's try to analyse what or how
16 the communications went at the time, and then we can further focus on the
18 I'd like to hear from the parties whether there's any agreement
19 on this.
20 Looking at my right, no one is yet standing, but, Mr. Kay, you'll
21 be the next one.
22 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Rehn, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Kay,
24 who's counsel for Mr. Cermak.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:
3 Q. Mrs. Rehn, what we're going to look at is some documents which is
4 a snap-shot of measures taken by relevant Croatian government ministries
5 in relation to trying to stop crimes, and this is relevant to one of your
6 reports filed.
7 MR. KAY: And for reference purposes, it doesn't need to be
8 brought up, but so it can be considered by Their Honours, Exhibit P639,
9 page 11, paragraph 31.
10 Q. The first document I'd like you to look at is already in
11 evidence, D49. This is a document that is dated the 18th of August,
12 1995, it comes from the assistant minister of the Ministry of the
13 Interior, and it was sent by that minister whose name is Josko Maric.
14 First of all, did you ever meet Josko Moric?
15 A. It's possible but I can't recall it. I told you and told the
16 Court earlier that I'm very bad with names; and perhaps if I see his
17 face, that's quite something else.
18 Q. I quite understand. This was sent by him. He worked in the
19 Ministry of the Interior, the MUP, to the police stations.
20 MR. KAY: Can we turn to page 2 of the document.
21 Q. The Court are familiar with this document, Mrs. Rehn. And on
22 page 2 of the document, you can see in the text there that he has
23 received information about torching of houses, taking away property, and
24 he refers to most of the acts being perpetrated by individuals wearing
25 Croatian army uniforms. Then he deals there in the text with whether
1 they are or are not members of the Croatian army.
2 He says, as you can see, that these acts are inflicting political
3 damage on the Republic of Croatia
4 MR. KAY: If we turn to page 3.
5 Q. In this order, he tells the police administration chiefs. Again,
6 the Court are familiar with the structure within the Croatian law of
7 police stations and administration chiefs. Were you familiar with the
8 internal structure of the Croatian system of policing?
9 A. Certainly, we talked about it, and it was presented to me when I
10 was there. This letter, of course, was written before my mandate
11 started, 18th of August; but, of course, we talked about how the
12 structures were built up within the Ministry of Interior.
13 Q. Yes. We're going to look at a series of documents now going from
14 August to September. Don't worry about the date. It's the orders that
15 are relevant. Of course, when you're writing your reports, these are
16 already in order. You can see that there is an order to convene a
17 meeting with the military police.
18 Paragraph 2 deals with the torching of houses, taking of
19 property, not to be operatively investigated in the sense of those that
20 have hitherto occurred, but a stop must be put to cases of this type as
21 of today. Paragraph 3 deals with military police and check-points, mixed
22 patrols of civilian and military police to be set up. And in
23 paragraph 4, on-site investigations, forensic, and operative processing
24 will be conducted after every case. Paragraph 5, if the military police
25 cannot perform the task mentioned in 4, the civilian police will do it
1 alone irrespective of whether the perpetrator wears an army uniform or
3 Next page, page 4, deals with the dissemination of this
4 particular order. And in your report that I've just referred to, you
5 were told by the Croatian higher authorities that they had taken steps
6 and measures in relation to trying to prevent crime; isn't that right?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Thank you. Let's look at the next document. As I said, it's a
9 snap-shot of seven, just to put the picture to you.
10 MR. KAY: This is D584 as marked for identification, Exhibit
11 D584. It is dated the 19th of August, 1995, otherwise called 65 ter
12 4595, if that makes it easier.
13 Q. And we'll be looking at a document dated the 19th of August from
14 one of those police administrations back to the MUP and the assistant
15 minister, Mr. Moric. And it refers to the document we've just looked at.
16 And in this document which is sent by a chief of the Zadar-Knin police
17 administration, he refers to a meeting between the military police and
18 the police administration of Zadar-Knin. But we can note that the
19 military police pointed out that coordinated action at all check-points
20 was impossible due to lack of personnel.
21 And page 2 of this document is just a conclusion. We don't need
22 to go into that document.
23 Were you informed about the coordination between the military
24 police and the local police?
25 A. It's possible, but I'm not sure about this. This is interesting,
1 though, with the dates that they had taken steps and had meetings already
2 before they got the letter from MUP.
3 Q. Yes, yes. And these are -- this is relevant to matters you were
4 discussing with the government, of course. Yes.
5 MR. KAY: Can we go to the next document, which is D50.
6 Q. This is a document dated the 22nd of August. Again, it's from
7 the MUP. It's from Mr. Moric, the assistant minister, again to the
8 police stations. Again, it refers to the telegram of the 18th of August.
9 MR. KAY: If we turn to page 2, we get to the substance of the
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if perhaps it could be read, it
12 doesn't say "police stations" but "police administrations," just so we
13 have the terminology.
14 MR. KAY: I'm very grateful to my learned friend.
15 Q. Page 2 is the text. Have a look at that text there to do with
16 the issue of the burning of houses, taking of property unlawfully. The
17 letter was sent by Mr. Moric to the military police describing the
18 magnitude and significance of the issue. Military police administration
19 sending an order to the military police battalions, telling them to link
20 with the MUP and police stations to solve the problem, and then requiring
21 monitoring and information about the level of cooperations between the
22 police and the military police. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And a series of questions looking at relevant matters to see how
25 effective these tasks were being performed. Do you note that?
1 A. [No verbal response]
2 Q. And would you agree this kind of step and measure is the sort of
3 matter that you would have approved of at the time?
4 A. Yes, absolutely. And all these measures asked for are exactly
5 what we would have -- we would have wanted also to happen concretely.
6 Q. Yes. And we can turn to the next page, page 3, where information
7 about investigations as well is required. And I take it your answer
8 would be the same as you've just given, that this would be important from
9 your perspective; is that right?
10 A. It is right.
11 Q. Yes. Did anyone inform you on your team about these particular
12 measures when you came in on the 27th of September?
13 A. That's quite possible, but I can't confirm it because coming for
14 the first time to the region in war, I had been -- oh, yes, I was a
15 minister of defence, but that's something else, and not on the same good
16 level as these with the realities. And I'm sure that I was told about
17 what was asked for also was repeated in my meetings with authorities. Of
18 course, these detailed letters I didn't have access to, I'm quite sure
19 about that.
20 Q. And it is fair to say that in your reports to the
21 Secretary-General, that this kind of detail is not in those reports that
22 you have filed?
23 A. No. They are not in the sense that, of course, we are telling
24 about the wishes and also the intentions of the authorities. But we --
25 of course, we've heard a lot what we saw in practice out in the villages,
1 and that these orders were not in any case fully followed.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. KAY: The next document is under seal, Your Honours, and
4 measures have to be taken.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it --
6 MR. KAY: It's --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- a matter not just to be shown to the public or
8 would the testimony also be confidential?
9 MR. KAY: The testimony won't be confidential because that can be
10 dealt with --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next document should not be shown to the
12 public and that would be, Mr. Kay?
13 MR. KAY: P502.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P502.
15 MR. KAY:
16 Q. This is a document here that you can see on the screen,
17 Mrs. Rehn. I'm not going to go into the detail. You understand it's a
18 document that's under seal. You understand why I'm doing this, do you?
19 A. Yes, if I get it. Now it's here in English. It was not in the
20 beginning. Let's see.
21 Q. There's no need to go into some of the detail, but you can see
22 here that the matters of check-points, coordination, patrols are dealt
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And issues of cooperation, all measures that I'm sure you would
1 approve of; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. KAY: We can move on from there as we don't need to spend
5 longer with it, and I know the Trial Chamber are familiar with the
7 Let us turn now to the next document, D589, as it has been MFI'd.
8 It is 65 ter 1302. It's not under seal.
9 Q. It's dated the 28th of August, it's from the Zadar-Knin police
10 administration sent to that assistant minister, Mr. Moric, who's been
11 involved with this series of orders from the MUP, and it concerns the
12 treatment of people in military uniforms in the liberated area and refers
13 to a significant number of persons wearing Croatian army uniforms,
14 carrying weapons, driving vehicles.
15 MR. KAY: Let's turn to page 2.
16 Q. It refers to such people at the top of the page probably being in
17 concert with relatives, friends, and the like, taking property, driving
18 it away, on the basis of written corroborations issued by municipal
19 presidents. So, obviously, some sort of fraud going on with people with
20 false papers. Do you see that?
21 A. I see this.
22 Q. Would you accept that the situation faced by the Government of
24 them very difficult administrative problems to enforce and maintain the
25 rule of law?
1 A. Of course, it was tricky for them to find out who was really
2 military and when they were wearing uniform, something that I have
3 already also made clear in my earlier statements here today and
4 yesterday. A post-conflict time is always difficult to administer, but,
5 of course, you should do your best in any case.
6 Q. Yes. And it depends upon the level of resources of a particular
7 government. It goes without saying, doesn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Further down the page the author thought it necessary, deemed it
10 necessary, that the local police or persons authorised them should be
11 present at meetings that General Cermak held with members of UNCRO,
12 UNCIVPOL, and other international organizations to ensure police are
13 informed about all agreements.
14 Page 3, it's only two lines but it's always unsatisfactory not
15 finishing a sentence. Inform them of conclusions reached which will
16 enable them to organize and plan tasks and duties from their purview
18 Again, measures, I'm sure you would agree, whereby the Croatian
19 ministry is trying to deal with the problems that they were faced?
20 A. Certainly, they were trying.
21 Q. Yes.
22 MR. KAY: And we've only got two more documents, P499, which is
23 under seal. Again, we can look at this document without going into any
24 substantive information, Your Honour, so I don't --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be shown on the screen, but no need to go
1 into private session.
2 MR. KAY: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. KAY: Thank you.
5 Q. We can all look at this document. I think you've probably got
6 the hang of it now, Mrs. Rehn; would that be fair?
7 A. Soon, not now.
8 Q. I mean about me not going into the detail.
9 A. Oh, yes, yes.
10 Q. It's dated the 1st of September. And as the text comes up on the
11 screen, you can see that there are problems with the military police. If
12 we turn to page 2, those problems are identified and you see the wearing
13 of Croatian army uniforms and units that are mopping-up the area from
14 isolated paramilitary units. That's all we need to go into.
15 Again, this would have been a document that you probably wouldn't
16 have seen; is that right?
17 A. No, I haven't seen it.
18 Q. You agree that it shows a sort of continuum of orders that were
19 being issued at the ministry level?
20 A. Definitely, as the -- as the actions are still going on all the
21 time --
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. -- even if there are other orders.
24 Q. There are others. I've taken a little snap-shot to show you on
25 this matter without taking up too much court time.
1 MR. KAY: The last document is a public document, D596. I'm told
2 to use the 2D numbers. This is another MFI, 2D04-0216. The translation
3 is 18. Yes. I'm getting the hang of reading the documents in B/C/S now.
4 This is a document dated the 19th of September to the police
5 administrations. You can see Zadar-Knin, Knin there, referring to an
6 earlier telegram which the Court is familiar with, referring to the fact
7 that on the 15th of September, the military police is no longer present
8 at entrance and exit check-points to the liberated areas. Activities of
9 the military police will include car patrols assigned to the task of
10 constant patrolling, obligatory reporting to "our," which would be the
11 MUP, check-points and radio communications.
12 Turning to page 2, the same assistant minister who signed this
13 letter, Mr. Moric, has said: "Keep previous check-points, thus, that you
14 change the locations of their establishment ..."
15 And in essence what means, because people find ways of getting
16 round check-points, move them around and more patrols and foot patrols to
17 carry out basic police tasks.
18 Last of the documents, but again the sort of information and
19 actions that would have been in accordance with your wishes?
20 A. It would be very odd if I should say they are not because this is
21 all what we wanted to happen also in the practice.
22 Q. Yes. We've looked actually at documents that range from the
23 highest levels going down to a more basic level. So it's been all the
24 way through in this snap-shot of documents throughout the system, so down
25 to the police stations in the field not just being sent between ministry
1 departments. Did you understand that?
2 A. Mm-hmm.
3 Q. Yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was there any presentation to you of these measures during your
7 A. During the meetings with the ministers, I can't recall that they
8 should have gone to practical details like these, very important details.
9 It would have been gone if they could have been much more explicit with
10 what they told, because they said we are doing everything we can and we
11 are giving our orders to the police stations and so on and so on.
12 Everybody's aware of what they should do, but, of course, the
13 presentation of direct, and I think most of these letters are also
14 strongly confidential. So they certainly didn't want to show anything
15 like that, even if it would have been in their own interest.
16 Q. The Court knows the evidence. This is part of, let me just say,
17 a hundred documents, all right, this snap-shot, or more. It would have
18 been helpful to you at the time to perhaps have a presentation, not
19 necessarily by me but someone else, of what was happening in the system
20 so that you could have reported on it, I dare say. Is that right?
21 A. Of course, I reported that we got our overviews what was told to
22 us from the ministerial level. But for us, of course, the most important
23 thing was the orders were strictly also followed, that there was a clear
24 tendency that every policeman or woman - I can't remember if there were
25 police women then - that everyone really followed the orders in spite of
1 the pressure perhaps from their fellow Croatians in the villages.
2 Q. You referred earlier this morning to the neighbours problem --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- which you would agree is difficult to deal with?
5 A. Absolutely. And I have many times stated that police are also
6 human beings with all the weaknesses and the strength, and these are
7 difficult things to be dealing with in your close neighbourhood.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MR. KAY: I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
11 If you would allow me one second.
12 Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready?
13 Mrs. Rehn, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic, who is
14 counsel for Mr. Markac.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
17 Q. Good morning, ma'am.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. I'm going to be covering a lot of documents with you, so we're
20 going to need to have just a little bit of patience as they're called up.
21 So I just want you to keep that in mind when I'm asking you questions and
22 when you're giving me answers.
23 Before I get into some of the documents, I wanted to follow-up on
24 a few things that were discussed in your earlier testimony. You had
25 mentioned that at one of your visits to Croatia, you personally had
1 observed some looting that was going on; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who was with -- who was with your party when you observed this?
4 A. During my first visit, that was in Sector North and I understood
5 that I should not talk about that.
6 Q. That's correct. Thank you.
7 A. Yes. And then during my next visit, I had with me Roman
8 Wieruszewski; I had with me my security officer, Heljo Laukkala, a major
9 then in the Finnish army; and then we had an interpreter; and I can't
10 recall who was then the interpreters for every of these. Somebody was
11 also driving. It could have been Sasa Milosevic, it could have been
12 somebody else. But we had always a team of the human rights staff.
13 Q. Okay. Did you report this, what you observed, to any local
14 police station or any local authorities that could have probably
15 investigated it?
16 A. Not directly, I didn't report, because it had -- it was also the
17 duty of the staff to report on this. But, of course, I mentioned it in
18 my meetings with the administration of -- on the ministerial level.
19 Q. Okay. So when you observed this as you were making your tour of
21 did not report this to any political or police authority while you were
22 on your tour; correct?
23 A. I met police officers during my visits. I always had meetings
24 with police, and then I told about this. But I can't just make now a
25 list of that. I have reported then, and then on that and that. Of
1 course, we had a list then of everything that we saw that was made
2 afterwards, and then brought to the attention of the Croatian authorities
3 on different levels. But again, I have to recall that my work was -- I
4 was living in Finland
5 paid for the travel, DSA; and then I went back again to Finland. So that
6 in that sense I was not there to take actions. I was a reporter,
7 reporting on what I had seen.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Before you came to testify here in The Hague
9 did you meet with or talk with anyone other than representatives of the
10 Office of the Prosecutor about your testimony here?
11 A. Of course, when I was called for the first time in 2005, I talked
12 with my security officer, who is now in a private company as chief of
13 security, and so we talked about this and compared our impressions from
14 those times.
15 Q. Who was that person?
16 A. Heljo Laukkala. His name is here in the papers.
17 Q. Anyone else?
18 A. With my family of course, my children and grandchildren, not with
19 my great-grandchild because she was too small.
20 Q. There was a discussion that you had during Mr. Misetic's
21 cross-examination about the issue of what went on in Kosovo. I just
22 wanted to ask you one question about that. The report that was read to
23 you or the portion of the report that was read to you discussed that the
24 murder rate had dropped from 50 murders per week to roughly three murders
25 per week in a six-month time-frame. Were you aware that in that
1 time-frame, the responsible authorities for maintaining law and order in
2 Kosovo were UNMIK and KFOR?
3 A. Of course, because I gave the report, the advices from when being
4 the SIG for UNMIK to Secretary-General, some advices how the UNMIK should
5 be built up from my experiences. So I was very strongly aware of what
6 happened in Kosovo after all my years of reporting on Kosovo.
7 Q. And you were aware, were you not, that UNMIK and KFOR were very
8 well equipped, very well trained, had the latest in technology available
9 to them at that time?
10 A. Oh, yes, because I visited the Finnish contingent several times.
11 Q. You had discussed during your direct examination your impressions
12 about whether or not President Tudjman was interested in the plight of
13 the Serb return to Croatia
14 said that he was not interested in that.
15 I wanted to ask you a question about that. Whether or not
16 President Tudjman, as you say, was interested or not interested in the
17 Serb return to Croatia
18 January of 2000, a total of 41.000 Serbs returned to Croatia, did they
20 A. I think what happened in 1995 in discussions is something that
21 can't be compared with what happened until then 2000, because these times
22 when I was reporting there was not a clear willingness of having the
23 Serbs to return. So I think that we have all to be very grateful that
24 perhaps partly, for a little part, my reports on the situation after
25 Operation Storm in Croatia
1 take strong actions.
2 Q. Sure, I understand you. I understand --
3 A. Yes. Because, of course, there must have been returns until
4 2000, and that has nothing to do with what was the atmosphere in 1995.
5 Q. Okay. So at least you would agree that whether President Tudjman
6 was or wasn't interested in their return, they did, in fact, return, and
7 up to 41.000 returned as of January of 2000?
8 A. Yes, out of 180.000.
9 Q. Do you know how many have returned to date?
10 A. I have no idea because my work is now in totally different parts
11 of the world.
12 Q. Would it surprise you to know that over 120.000 Serbs have
13 returned to Croatia
14 A. I'm very pleased to have this figure.
15 Q. I'd like to go through some documents with you now, please.
16 Obviously, you wrote several reports during --
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may ask counsel what the
18 source of that -- the basis of that question was.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we can look at D420, that was the source. It
20 was admitted during Mr. Galbraith's testimony.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: We don't have to put it up on the screen, but
23 that's the source.
24 Q. There was a lot of discussion, Ms. Rehn, about things like
25 amnesty for people who were involved in armed conflict against Croatia
1 You remember that discussion, do you not?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. You were aware that from October of 1996 through June of 1998,
4 there were close to 19.000 people who were amnestied by President
6 A. I don't have that figure. You have to remember that I also left
7 my duties as Special Rapporteur in the end of 1997 when I entered as the
8 SIG in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Were you aware of laws or decrees that were
10 passed by President Tudjman amnestying people before Operation Storm?
11 A. No. I'm not aware of all these documents.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, to save time and not deal with
13 these documents directly with Ms. Rehn, since it's on this theme, we're
14 preparing a bar table submission relating to amnesty and the number of
15 people that were amnestied because it's on this topic. It's a lot of
16 documentation that is taking a while to translate, but I just wanted to
17 make the Court aware of that, that we will submit a bar table submission
18 and obviously discuss it with the Prosecution.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, of course, we would hear from the
20 Prosecution if there's any objection against that. I noticed that quite
21 a lot of time was spent on the amnesty issue here; whereas, my
22 understanding of Mrs. Rehn's testimony is that, of course, it was very
23 welcome to Serbs who wanted to return and were fearing that they might be
24 investigated and prosecuted for having been a member of the armed forces
25 of the ARSK or the ARSK, that that was one concern; but that there was
1 another concern that those who were not amnestied and were suspected of
2 having committed war crimes, whether Serbs or Croats, that that would
4 And I noticed that quite a lot of the attention was shifted from
5 what I understood one apparent concern of Mrs. Rehn, that is, no
6 investigations, no prosecutions against Croats suspected of having
7 committed war crimes, that that was a concern which was a bit different
8 from whether the matter that Serbs were fearing to be prosecuted for
9 having been loyal to the wrong government or having been in the wrong
10 army, that that was a rather separate, other concern.
11 Now, the fear and the reasons why there would have existed fear
12 for returning is, of course, also in this case seems to be not exactly
13 the same as the other matter; that is, whether sufficient efforts were
14 made to investigate and prosecute war crimes that may have been
15 committed. If you would keep that -- Mr. Misetic is nodding no. So,
16 therefore --
17 MR. MISETIC: It's just -- we actually talked about this last
18 night because this discussion came up in court yesterday.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. MISETIC: And we are completely confused as to what the issue
21 is, and I am still completely confused as to what the issue is.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's ask, then, Mrs. Rehn whether you
23 consider this two, separate problems and whether you could tell us what
24 bothers you more than the other or less than the other.
25 THE WITNESS: My concern, of course, in this specific case of the
1 Operation Storm was what happened to those who went out. My concerns --
2 and it was not my mandate to talk about what happened earlier, what was
3 wrong and right before that, what the Serbs did to Croatia when taking
4 over this Krajina region. And my concern was about what happened to the
5 Serbs during Operation Storm when they found or feared to stay whatever
6 security they could perhaps have had to stay. But they escaped to
7 different neighbouring countries, 180.000 of them or something else, it
8 will never be stated exactly. And what kind of fears they had to return
9 back home, not only the neighbours and their attitude, but their
11 Then this question of amnesty law, that will it make them unsafe,
12 what will really happen. They didn't understand who, who was covered by
13 the amnesty and who was not, however clear it might have been. So they
14 are two different cases, you are absolutely right, Your Honour. But if
15 this is confusing, let's be all accused then.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I think it would not be appropriate to
17 enter into a full debate between Chamber and counsel on these matters.
18 MR. MISETIC: The problem, of course, Your Honour, is that while
19 the witness is still here to the extent that there is an issue that we
20 can clarify with her, it is perhaps something we can discuss before the
21 next break so that she's not present in the room. However, I don't
22 see -- I think we're talking about apples and oranges. The issue being
23 raised by the Defence is not what her motivation was or the motivation of
24 the international community. The issue is whether a general amnesty law
25 was passed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think that -- let's discuss it at a
2 later stage and in the absence of the witness.
3 MR. MISETIC: That's fine.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think I misunderstand you. The issue might
5 be, as you say, apples and oranges, fine. I thought that the witness was
6 talking about apples, and that you moved on with the oranges. That's my
8 MR. MISETIC: If I --
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you have an opportunity at a later stage to see
10 what my concern and what my problem is, then we do that in the absence of
11 the witness.
12 MR. MISETIC: That's fine.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I guess the only thing
15 I would add to that before I move on is that we're sort of talking in the
16 abstract about this. The bar table submission, I think, will make it
17 clear when we file it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And we will do it as quickly as we can, given
20 the amount of translations.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no problem. You may have noted that the
22 witness very much emphasized that she, although knowing about the
23 abstract, very much wanted to look at the concrete as well.
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Right. And I know she had -- the witness had
25 said she's not a lawyer, so that's another of the reasons why we want to
1 enter these laws at this point.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps good for her.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. I can't study now in a short while the
4 full --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed, and I hope we don't
6 have the full fruit basket within the next half-hour.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Me either, Your Honour. Thank you.
8 If we could please call up P639.
9 Q. Ms. Rehn, I'll submit, while we're waiting for the document to
10 get up on the screen, this is your report of 7 November 1995 to the
11 United Nations, and I wanted to ask you a few questions about this
13 It's true, is it not, that every time you submitted a report
14 regarding Croatia
15 submitted a written response to you; correct?
16 A. Yes. I have already stated that that was one of the reasons for
17 the reports, to get the governments in the former Yugoslavia to react in
18 a positive way.
19 Q. And would you agree with me that at least, as far as you're
20 concerned, the Croatian government did act in a positive way to your
22 A. Yes, absolutely. And I have paid a lot of credit to them in my
23 reports, grateful for the cooperation.
24 Q. You did begin on page 6 of your report, and feel free to let me
25 know when you have that in front of you. If you have the hard copy,
1 Mrs. Rehn, it might be easier for you to follow the hard copy because if
2 we go from page to page, it takes a little longer on the screen?
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's at tab 5.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, counsel.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
6 Okay, I'm ready.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
8 Q. Okay. If you go to page 6, paragraph 13. You did discuss, at
9 least in your first report, some of the history of what happened in
10 former Sectors North and South before Operation Storm, correct --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- as a historical context? In the middle of that paragraph 13,
13 it states: "First, almost the entire Croatian population was forced to
14 leave both former Sectors as a consequence of serious human rights
15 violations committed against them by the de facto Serb authorities.
16 Secondly, Serbian refugees and displaced persons from other parts of
18 @despite all efforts, neither the United Nations Protection
19 Force, UNPROFOR, in the former Yugoslavia
20 Confidence Restoration Operation in Croatia, UNCRO, was able to
21 facilitate the return of Croatian refugees and displaced persons to these
22 territories, even as an international presence was not able to provide
23 effective protection for the remaining non-Serbian population in that
25 And I'll pause for the translation. Did I go slow enough?
1 JUDGE ORIE: You're the one who reads so slowly that the
2 translation's able to follow.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: All right. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. The Croatian government responded to that in P684 [sic]. That's
5 at several parts, but what I wanted to do at this point was just go over
6 to P684 [sic], if we could.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And, counsel, if you could give me the tab
8 number for Ms. Rehn, so she could follow in the hard copy, I would be
9 grateful. Hand keep your hand on that page.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Are you referring to P640, by any chance?
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: 648. If I said 684, it's my dyslexia. I'm
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Tab 16, Mrs. Rehn.
14 THE WITNESS: 16.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Tab 16.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, counsel.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
19 Q. If you look at paragraph 6, which I believe is the second -- on
20 the second page of this report. While we realize now after your
21 testimony that your focus was on occurrences during and after Operation
22 Storm, the Croatian government responds that there were approximately
23 more than -- or there were more than 600 civilians who were killed by
24 Serb paramilitaries during the UNPROFOR/UNCRO mandate in a time where
25 there was technically no war in Croatia
1 A. Oh, yes, it's stated here. And you have, of course, to remember
2 that the Special Rapporteur here means, Tadeusz Mazowiecki, and not
3 Elisabeth Rehn.
4 Q. Correct, understood. Now, if we go back to your report, and if
5 you -- I'm going to try to do not too much going back and forth. But
6 since P648 is a response to your response which is P639, if you could
7 keep your hand on one of them while you're flipping back and forth.
8 If we could go to page 8, paragraph 22, there's a discussion of
9 information provided by the Croatian authorities on 30 August, indicating
10 that during Operation Storm, 526 Serbs where are killed, 116 of them
11 civilians; that 211 Croatian soldiers and policemen and 42 Croatian
12 civilians were killed; and that 907 persons were detained for
13 investigation, 704 of whom are still in detention.
14 What I wanted -- the reason for the comparison of the two is I
15 wanted to ask you: Did you have any information in your report that
16 would dispute, at least from the Croatian authority side, how many
17 persons were killed during the course of Operation Storm, as listed in
18 paragraph 22?
19 A. I definitely can't say that this would be wrong or right because
20 that was an information that we have got, and it's impossible for me to
21 have numbers and figures here now. For me then, it was most interesting
22 with those cases that we raised and never got a final answer from the
23 Croatian authorities.
24 Q. Okay. And the reason I point that out is during the
25 UNPROFOR/UNCRO mandate when there was technically no armed combat, there
1 was 600 civilians killed. During the course of military -- in Croatia
2 under Serb occupation, and during the course of armed combat, as noted in
3 paragraph 22, at least from the Croatian authority side, less people were
4 killed in a time-frame during the course of the war.
5 Now, my question to you is, with respect to the number of people
6 killed, I think you said you did not have any other information at your
7 disposal that would be able to prove or disprove that number; correct?
8 A. Of this during my time.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Of course, what happened earlier is something that I was not even
11 asking for the configuration.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go back to P648, please.
14 Q. The first page of P648 is actually the cover letter from deputy
15 prime minister and minister of foreign affairs, Dr. Mate Granic. Had you
16 had a chance to meet Dr. Granic, Ms. Rehn?
17 A. We have -- we have reported on several meetings with Mr. Granic.
18 Q. Yes. I just -- you knew who he was; correct?
19 A. Absolutely. I met him many times.
20 Q. The second-last paragraph of his letter states: "I avail myself
21 of the opportunity to reiterate the unwavering commitment of my
22 government to the overall development of the democratic system, rule of
23 law, and human rights in Croatia
24 Now, having had a chance to meet Dr. Granic and talk with him,
25 did you believe him that that's actually how he felt when he wrote this?
1 A. Dr. Granic had a very good team of people around him, and I
2 remember well that especially Mrs. Simunovic was very devoted to human
3 rights who was his assistant on the human rights side. I believe that he
4 tried and he wanted to make it right. I'm not sure that he could fulfil
5 everything that he promised.
6 But as I said, we met several times. He was always available
7 when I asked for a meeting, and that was, of course, something that I
8 appreciated very much. He had a real dialogue.
9 Q. Did it seem to you that from your perspective in dealing with
10 Dr. Granic that the Croatian government through its foreign affairs
11 minister had a commitment to try to make things better and right?
12 A. I have mentioned earlier and I mention it again that when I
13 insisted on renewals in the system like the Ombudsman, it was immediately
14 taken forward and there was also other steps taken. And I must say that
15 in their answers to my reports, we always got something new and positive
16 that was also meant with the reports. You have to remember that a human
17 rights reporter must be totally objective, neutral, and just look to what
18 is really happening.
19 Q. Understood. And, with that, you need to determine the intent of
20 someone and what they're trying to do as well, don't you?
21 A. Sorry. Can you repeat yourself?
22 Q. Sure. When you look and evaluate what a country is doing, you
23 try to look and see what the intent is of the people who are trying to
24 accomplish those goals, do you not?
25 A. Of course, I'm looking to the intent, but even more to the
2 Q. Sure. And we can say, at least as far as refugee return that
3 we've heard of, the results have been substantial over the course of
4 time, have they not?
5 A. Yes. But not during the time from 1995 to 1997.
6 Q. And --
7 A. And that is what I'm covering.
8 Q. Understood. The paragraph 10 of your -- of Dr. Granic's
9 response -- actually, I'm sorry, not paragraph 10. Paragraph 16.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Again, for the record, that's P648.
11 Q. In paragraph 17, Dr. Granic provides some statistical information
12 on the damage that Croatia
13 also discusses to some extent the fires that occurred on the territory
14 after Operation Storm.
15 Now, at least at this point in time, there is no accurate number
16 that you -- you've talked about some numbers in terms of homes that were
17 destroyed in that territory. There is no accurate number that can give
18 us a figure as to how many homes were destroyed as a result of either
19 arson or as a result of conduct by persons after the war?
20 A. Yes. We have still these 5.000 estimated that we have been
21 talking about already earlier.
22 Q. You see the Croatian government here has a different number,
23 which I would assume you would think was low, that there was some houses
24 that were caught on fire as a consequence of war operations, and at least
25 as of this -- date of this report, 715 were partly or totally destroyed
1 by having been intentionally set on fire. Obviously, there's a huge
2 discrepancy between 715 and 5.000, but would you agree with me that an
3 accurate number would have to be somewhere in between those two?
4 A. That's possible, that's possible. But I don't -- I don't take
5 any kind of strong standpoint on this, as it's impossible for me to
6 verify here, as it was not even then when the questions were actual for
7 and we dealt with them.
8 Q. Understood. Ms. Rehn, when you were on your tour, did you ever
9 take any pictures of anything that you saw?
10 A. There are a lot of pictures.
11 Q. That you took?
12 A. Private, private photos, yes, especially my security major took
14 Q. Do you know whether or not it was a policy of yours as Special
15 Rapporteur to photograph areas that you went to see for official
17 A. These pictures are very private, and they have not been used at
18 all for anything else. It was -- it was a documentation of one period of
19 my life.
20 Q. Oh, I understand that, Mrs. Rehn. I was just asking you if there
21 was any official policy on whether or not Special Rapporteur would
22 photograph --
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Definitely not, at least not anything that was told to me. Just
1 because of the freedom of the Special Rapporteur, there were really cases
2 like in Bosnia and Herzegovina when I went against the explicit orders of
3 the United Nations mission to go to a place that was dangerous, and I
4 have even photos from there.
5 Q. Ms. Rehn, would you agree with me that at least during your time
6 in Croatia
7 really wanted to see?
8 A. I must say that it was really a luxury to be a Special Rapporteur
9 on human rights in this whole territory -- in that whole territory,
10 because even in Serbia
11 wherever I wanted. I got it from President Milosevic directly, and that
12 was something my predecessor didn't have.
13 Q. Sure, I understand that. I specifically asked you about Croatia
15 A. Yes, of course. But I want to make it clear that there were no
16 limits, limitations, for me in the territory of my mandate.
17 Q. If you take a look, Ms. Rehn, at paragraph 18 of P648, again,
18 Dr. Granic in his response to your report provides some statistical
19 information about criminal acts of grand theft.
20 And he notes in his last sentence: " ... some data from the
21 Special Rapporteur's report are impossible to verify because they are
22 incomplete and vague."
23 It's fair to state that his observation regarding your report on
24 verification is accurate, is it not?
25 A. There were case, like the Grubori case, that is in one way
1 destroying a lot of what he is saying because there were clear
2 verification. There was a correspondence between us, and I never could
3 get and have not get until this day any kind of explanation of who were
4 the perpetrators. So that took a little bit out of the competence of
5 what he == or accuracy of what he said.
6 Q. Sure, I understand. My question was related to criminal acts of
7 grand theft which is noted in paragraph 18, not anything else. It's
8 true, is it not, that with respect to the 1.054 criminal acts of grand
9 theft that have been recorded in the liberated territories, there were
10 some data from the Special Rapporteur that were impossible to verify
11 because they are incomplete and vague; correct?
12 A. It's quite possible because, as I have told so many times before
13 here, that the data were collected by my staff through discussions with
14 other UN agencies and others and by what they found out themselves, and
15 it's possible that in some cases it could have been difficult to follow
16 up for the administration.
17 Q. If you go to the next page, Ms. Rehn -- Mrs. Rehn, I'm sorry.
18 A. Oh, you can call me whatever you want.
19 Q. All right. Paragraph 22, there's a discussion that there are --
20 from Dr. Granic in his response that there are some 3 million land-mines
21 scattered throughout Croatia
22 I mean, that's a significant obstacle in many instances to
23 getting people to return, is it not?
24 A. Yes, that is something I have been able to feel myself when
25 travelling around.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P650, please.
2 Q. Mrs. Rehn, this is your report of December of 1995. This is your
3 second report; correct?
4 A. That must be, yes.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, for the record, that --
6 although it was marked as P650, it's an exhibit tendered before
7 under P477, and it was corrected this morning. So the exhibit number
8 is P477.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you for that, counsel. I appreciate that.
10 As I said before, math is not my strong suit.
11 Q. If we go to page --
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: You can find it, Ms. Rehn, at tab 19.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, counsel.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have it here now.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
17 Q. Thank you. If you could please go to page 5, and in
18 paragraph 18, you actually cite Dr. Granic's response in the report
19 itself; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And there are some additional information which you note in
22 paragraph 19, which says: "On 16 November," and I'm looking at the
23 fourth line going into the fifth line of paragraph 19.
24 "On 16 November, a senior Croatian police official reported to
25 the United Nations that three Croatian soldiers had been arrested in
1 connection with looting, intimidation, and harassment of civilians in the
2 area. The three had then been transferred to the Karlovac military
3 headquarters. United Nations observers have witnessed incidents where
4 property has been confiscated from looters by Croatian police."
5 Now, was that reported to you by the UN military observers? Can
6 you give me any more definition on who the United Nations observers were
7 who that you are referring to there?
8 A. No. It could have been whoever of all the different agencies,
9 all the different organizations who were operating there, so I can't give
10 you any clearance on who exactly this was.
11 Q. In paragraph 20, you note on the third line from the bottom going
12 into the second line from the bottom: "Croatian authorities have made
13 efforts to confiscate and return property, but it appears that these have
14 been insufficient to address the magnitude of the problem."
15 Can you give us any indication as to what you mean by that they
16 may have been insufficient?
17 A. In the paragraph before, there is the mentioning of that -- that
18 property has been confiscated from looters by Croatian police, but that
19 nothing more has been then happening to these; and that if my memory is
20 telling me rightly, that what happened to this property in the very end
21 was quite unclear for our observers.
22 Q. Okay. So you were referring to that specific case, not anything
23 in general?
24 A. No, I think this is quite general.
25 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.
1 If we could go to page 10 of this report, Mrs. Rehn, please, and
2 if you look at paragraph 41.
3 A. Yes.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 6669 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm about to start another theme,
4 and I don't know if it's a good time to break now or should we break
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you give us an indication how much time you
7 would still need, so it can give us an indication whether we should break
8 now or in ten minutes.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I would say 20 minutes to half an hour at most.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mahindaratne, how much time would you need?
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I think 15 minutes to 20
12 minutes at the moment.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then you gave us a time estimate yesterday,
16 Mr. Kuzmanovic, which was --
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I thought it was an hour to an hour and a half,
18 Your Honour, if I'm not mistaken.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Hour to an hour and a half.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I know --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I know you know how much time I've taken; I
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll check about the information. Of course,
25 we'd like to conclude the --
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Most definitely.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- testimony of Mrs. Rehn. Well, it depends on how
3 many questions we would have.
4 Then there's no need at this moment to continue because you'll
5 not finish before the break. However, Mr. Misetic, you're on your feet.
6 You have on your mind the other matter.
7 MR. MISETIC: Yes. Before the witness leaves in case there's
8 something that needs to be put to her about the issue.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will, first of all, ask the usher to
10 escort Mrs. Rehn out of the courtroom. We'll spend two or three minutes
11 on this matter, and then we'll resume in approximately 20 minutes. And
12 after that, Mr. Kuzmanovic, you are encouraged to see whether you could
13 finish in certainly not more than 25 minutes.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will do so.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, we're discussing the matter in the
17 absence of -- as far as I'm concerned, I see that there are two topics.
18 MR. MISETIC: Yes. It may be helpful if I explain what I was
19 cross-examining on --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. MISETIC: -- and that may alleviate some of the -- at least
22 my confusion.
23 At page 18, lines 3 to 25 of yesterday's transcript,
24 Ms. Mahindaratne tried to introduce to the witness the issue of whether
25 the general amnesty act was intended to cover only the act of rebellion
1 or all crimes committed in connection with the armed conflict. The
2 purpose of my cross-examination was to show through the witness that the
3 act was intended to be as broad as possible, to cover all crimes as
4 possible. The fact that incidental to that inquiry was the issue of the
5 underlying policy reason from the international community was to make it
6 as broad as possible for Serbs was incidental to my cross-examination.
7 The main issue being what was the intent of having the law as broad as
9 The other issues that have now been introduced -- so when we say
10 apples to oranges, I thought it was apples to apples as to what I was
11 crossing in response to directly to something that had been raised direct
12 examination. The other issues now that the Trial Chamber has I'm not as
13 clear on what the -- where the miscommunication is between on what I
14 intended to show on cross and what issues were raised in response to my
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I may be confused by the sequence of the
17 examination. I think that the amnesty law immediately followed concerns
18 expressed by the witness on no prosecution for war crimes. Now, it is
19 clear that war crimes - I would understand that easily to be war crimes,
20 crimes against humanity, so international crimes - are to be excluded
21 from the amnesty law in any case. To what extent theft and other common
22 crimes are excluded is, of course, another matter.
23 But I thought that the witness expressed some concerns about
24 international crimes, to say so, not being prosecuted, and that the issue
25 of what was exactly covered by the amnesty law is a different issue. As
1 long as that is clear, I have no further problems.
2 MR. MISETIC: I agree with that as long as it's clear that we
3 will be addressing the issue, because the issue of international crimes
4 in this context is also an issue that needs to be further developed in
5 the course of this trial and the classification of them and, more
6 importantly, who it is in the Croatian system that's responsible for
7 making the determination as to whether something is an international
8 crime as opposed to a domestic crime.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. MISETIC: These are all issues to be developed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And who are prosecuted for crimes allegedly
12 committed, in what context and what period.
13 MR. MISETIC: Correct. That's correct, Your Honour.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I could just explain. The
15 reason I explored this issue with the witness is based on the bar table
16 submission made by the Defence. We were alerted to this line of
17 argument, and that is the reason I explored this area with the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 At this moment, I do not feel that there is great confusion, not
20 even small confusion. So we can leave the matter, as far as I'm
21 concerned, as it is at this moment.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the Bench is concerned, we'll have a break
24 and we'll resume at ten minutes to 1.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Could we please have P600. I know the 65 ter number is 309. I'm
6 almost certain it's P600. But if I'm wrong, I'm sure Mr. Registrar will
7 correct me.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's at tab 3.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to the second page of that,
11 Q. Mrs. Rehn, this is another response from Minister Granic and the
12 Croatian government regarding your report to the Security Council. And
13 if we could go to page 4, there is a response on page 4 regarding
14 measures taken against individuals and groups to perpetrated crimes in
15 the liberated areas after Operation Storm.
16 And under that same heading on page 5, in the first full
17 paragraph --
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Actually, the bottom right-hand corner on the
19 left document, it says "3." It's actually page 5 of the document itself.
20 It might not be page 5 of the exhibit. I will say page 5 of the document
21 itself. Thank you.
22 Q. There's some statistical information, again, provided in response
23 to your report about criminal proceedings underway in military and
24 civilian courts against 1.005 persons who stand accused of having
25 committed crimes during and after Operation Storm. And there's a
1 discussion of what stages some of these proceedings are in, where they
2 are taking place, and also there's an annex that's appended which I don't
3 know if it's appended to this specific 62 [sic] ter or P document.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go very last page, which is page 10
5 of P600.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, the document I have in front of
7 me -- oh, no, that must be a mistake.
8 Yes, please proceed.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Okay.
10 Just to ask the registrar, is there another page beyond this last
11 page 10 to this exhibit? Okay. If we could go to that, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a 31-page document from what I see.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Then the document I have must not be complete.
15 I'll just refer -- if we could call up 3D00-1588, please -- I'm sorry,
16 I'm sorry. Don't call that up. I'll stick with this particular
17 document. That's the next document. My confusion. I apologise.
18 We will go back to this same document that we're on, page 7 on
19 the lower right-hand corner.
20 Q. There is also a discussion on return of refugees and displaced
21 persons, which states as of 10 January 1996
22 3.000 requests for the return of just over 4.500 Serbs who left, and that
23 a description of the processing that's done of 50 files per day.
24 And if you can look at the following page, page 8, there's a
25 notation in the first full paragraph, the fourth line down, which -- in
1 which Dr. Granic is explaining that there are 180.000 displaced persons
2 within Croatia
4 returnees of Serbs, they had several hundred thousand displaced people
5 and refugees that they had to deal with, which is understandable in that
6 situation, is it not, Mrs. Rehn?
7 A. Yes. And I also pointed out in my earlier statements that you
8 have to remember that there is -- was a great amount of refugees and
9 displaced persons within the -- Croatia
10 Q. And despite the fact that there was some bureaucratic obstacles
11 with regard to the return of Serb refugees, there was also a huge problem
12 of dealing with the people who were already displaced within Croatia
14 A. Yes, that is what I said.
15 Q. If you look further on this same page, there is a discussion that
16 the Croatian government terminated the dead-line by which Serbs who had
17 left had to return to reclaim their property. So, at least from that
18 standpoint, a potential bureaucratic obstacle was removed; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If we go to page 10 of this same document --
21 A. But there is not said how much they terminated it.
22 Q. Well, I'll submit to you that for the record there, the
23 termination of the dead-line means that the dead-line was eliminated
24 completely from the law. So there was no dead-line as of the date of
25 this lay, 17 January 1996
1 At least, you don't have any information to the contrary that
2 there was a dead-line beyond this law, do you?
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, Mr. Kuzmanovic is reading
4 evidence into the record. He said he submits it for the record.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means that it is not evidence. He gives
6 his personal opinion about the information he has in order to -- the
7 Chamber will, of course, ignore that as evidence, but it might assist at
8 this moment, even if we do not have this law immediately at hand, the
9 version of the 17th of January, 1996, that Mr. Kuzmanovic leads the
10 witness in this respect. But it's certainly not to be considered to be
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sure. Your Honour, I think that document is
13 already in evidence. I don't have the particular D number right now, but
14 I will before the end of the day get it to Your Honours regarding this
15 law. It's already in evidence through Mr. Galbraith.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we would have to look very
17 carefully at the retroactive --
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Of course.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- retroactive effect of abolishing a time-limit. I
20 don't have that clearly on my mind at this moment.
21 So, Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Just to end the discussion regarding this topic, Mrs. Rehn. You
24 were not aware at all, were you, of a specific dead-line other than
25 the -- of a new dead-line that was set as a result of this particular
1 law, were you?
2 A. In my reports, I have several times referred to this 90 days
3 dead-line. So that has been quite obvious that is one of the matters I
4 have been especially been criticising from for the Croatian authorities.
5 Q. Yes. Were you aware at any time that the Croatian parliament
6 passed a law terminating or eliminating that dead-line?
7 A. I can't -- I can't just recognise this. But, of course, I got
8 the response from the Croatian government, the paper we now -- the
9 document we now are dealing with. So then I knew or perhaps I knew
10 already earlier.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to page 10 of this same document,
14 Q. There was some document, both today and yesterday, on the amnesty
15 law. And the first full paragraph discusses that: "President Tudjman
16 pardoned by eliminating criminal charges against 455 persons of Serb
17 ethnicity detained during and immediately after Operation Storm. These
18 were persons facing criminal charges before the military courts in
20 Does this clarify for you at all the issue of amnesty from
21 President Tudjman at least as from December 31st, 1995?
22 A. It was certainly known by me then, but what was worrying me was,
23 of course, the reaction of the Serbs who wanted to return because it was
24 not clear for them: Are they included or outside, what will happen to
25 them, do they have the chance of meeting charges when and if they return.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Mr. Registrar, could you please call 3D00-1749
2 to the screen.
3 Your Honour, we have a partial draft translation of this
4 document. This will be part of our bar table submission when it's
5 completely translated. But for purposes of hopefully clarifying in the
6 Court's mind this law on general amnesty and the description for what is
7 and what is not amnestied, I would like to tender this document into
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. MISETIC: If I may, I am sorry to rise to my feet, I believe
15 we tendered the law. It's Exhibit D680.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: The same one, counsel?
17 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry I missed that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no need, I take it, and that you
20 withdraw your --
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- request.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I would like to call up 3D00-1588.
25 Now, I think this document -- the whole of this document which is
1 another response from the Croatian government or the text of this
2 document is already in evidence. What I noted was not in evidence were
3 the last five pages of the -- this 3D document, which is the survey of
4 criminal proceedings.
5 And if I could ask, Mr. Registrar, to go to the
6 fifth-from-the-last page.
7 Q. Mrs. Rehn, this was another document written via Dr. Granic in
8 response to another report of yours, and this particular response is
9 dated 14 March 1996
10 survey of criminal proceedings underway, which is a table listing
11 perpetrators of criminal acts or the kinds of criminal acts after
12 Operation Storm. And it's further divided up on the following pages as
13 to where these actions are occurring, in addition to other statistical
14 data in response to your queries.
15 Do you recall receiving this survey at all?
16 A. Oh, yes. And I believe it's included in the documents we have
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Ms. Mahindaratne, I could not find it on e-court
19 or as appended to the original exhibit. Was it appended to the original
20 exhibit, this survey?
21 JUDGE ORIE: This is appended, yes, table 1 to the exhibit.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Then I will not offer it as a separate exhibit.
23 I just wanted to make sure. At least from what I could find, I couldn't
24 find it appended to the exhibit, Your Honour. I apologise for that
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also said this is further elaborated in
2 the pages to follow. That's not something I found there.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Correct. What I meant was the survey was an
4 attachment to the report and the previous pages discussed the survey. So
5 it was my mistake.
6 Q. The survey discusses, does it not, the number -- and we had
7 previously seen the number of 1.005 criminal proceedings listed on the
8 bottom of that first page of the survey.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could scroll down, please.
11 Q. Then it discusses what kind of criminal proceedings are being
12 pursued, at least on the page following as an example on the second page.
13 If we could go to the county court of Split, for example, which
14 is in Sector South, former Sector South, proceedings are underway against
15 28 persons as follows, and it discusses what they were charged with, the
16 offence of aggravated larceny.
17 Now, were you made aware at any time of the complete number of
18 persons who were prosecuted and/or convicted during this time-frame,
19 other than through these reports?
20 A. I cannot remember this because, of course, this was one way of
21 answering the requests I have been doing and putting to the authorities,
22 and all these figures were most welcome and the clarifications were most
23 welcome to the office of the Special Rapporteur. But what then has been
24 told later on is impossible for me to just remember here.
25 Q. Understood. And just for clarification, Mrs. Rehn, the other --
1 for the benefit of the Chamber, the Sibenik, Zadar county courts were
2 also courts which dealt with matters in former Sector South. Were you
3 aware of that at all?
4 A. I have this document.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P638, please.
6 Q. And that is your report dated 14 March of 1996, Mrs. Rehn.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'd be grateful if we could get a tab for her,
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Tab 4.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, counsel.
11 THE WITNESS: Sorry?
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Tab 4.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
14 Q. If you could look, Mrs. Rehn, page 19, paragraph 73 of this
15 report, there is a discussion on that page about how many Serb refugees
16 have been approved, 2.100 out of 5.600 requests received. And there was
17 an indication that considerably more Croatian Serbs would like to return
18 to Croatia
19 approval process started out slowly, it gradually gained speed over the
20 course of your time as Special Rapporteur?
21 A. It started, of course, immediately, but very slowly and very
22 much, of course, depending on the resistance from the villagers where --
23 to which it is returns will be directed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, just for the record, in order to
25 avoid whatever confusion, you referred to P638, but that same document
1 has changed identity and is D669.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 If we could go, please, to P645.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's tab 13, Mrs. Rehn.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
7 Q. I know that there was some concern you had, Mrs. Rehn, regarding
8 evictions from military Ministry of Defence flats. This particular
9 portion of your report, if you look at paragraph 25, is the Croatian
10 government's response to the procedure involved. And I'll wait until you
11 get there, if you let me know when you're there.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, has there been any communication
13 between Prosecution and Defence about the relevance of the eviction of
14 military apartments? Because I thought that this was not very much in
15 the core of -- is it of any relevance for the Prosecution's case?
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Not with regard to military apartments,
17 Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I was only trying to demonstrate another
20 aspect, but that will be argued later on. We don't have to deal with
21 military apartments.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So whatever we think about that will not in any way
23 influence --
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Right. So as long as I'm clear that the issue
1 of military apartments and the evictions of people from military
2 apartments and that methodology is not an issue in this trial, then I
3 will not go over it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is not for demonstrative purposes you could do
5 without, or you could --
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, it is true that in that report
7 that there was a reference to violence. And in the minutes, Mr. Jarnjak
8 refers to the ability of the civilian police to deal with that issue as
9 opposed to the military police, and that's what I tried to demonstrate.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So it's competence of the police, that's the only
11 relevant issue there, and not exactly what happened.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is correct, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, I leave it to you --
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: All right. Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether you feel any need to further explore the
16 eviction of military apartments.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, we may deal with that in a bar
18 table submission rather than waste time on that now. I will move on.
19 I wanted to make the Court aware regarding the various laws and
20 the dead-lines which were admitted through Ambassador Galbraith: D422
21 was the 90-day time-limit; D425 was the constitutional court making that
22 unconstitutional; and D424 was the law where the -- D425 and D422 were
23 the two exhibits, Your Honour, that dealt with that issue.
24 I will move to P640.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's tab 6, Mrs. Rehn.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.
2 Q. Page 15, paragraph 50. Let me know, Mrs. Rehn, when you're
4 A. Yes, I'm here.
5 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 50 notes that: "According to the Croatian
6 office for displaced persons and refugees, some 12.000 Serb refugees have
7 received permission to return to the country as of 12 October 1996,
8 mostly on the basis of family reunification or proof of citizenship."
9 Now, that's, of course, a number that's from your previous report
10 gone up several thousand; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So the bureaucratic obstacles, although are -- which were still
13 perhaps in place were improving?
14 A. Yes. Of course, they were improving, and all the time I could
15 state that steps forward are taken.
16 Q. Now, we've got additional information regarding -- I'll strike
17 that question.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Why don't we move to P651, please.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Tab 20.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.
21 Q. That's your final report of January 14, 1998 on paragraph 29,
22 which is page 9, and I appreciate your patience in struggling through the
23 documents, Mrs. Rehn.
24 A. I have seen them before.
25 Q. In your final report, you note on paragraph 29: "After more than
1 two years of observing human rights trends in Croatia, the Special
2 Rapporteur is of the opinion that while more still needs to be
3 accomplished, there are good reasons for optimism for the future."
4 And then later on, in that same paragraph, you discuss
5 statistical information received from the Government of Croatia that
6 says: " ... as of October 1997, a total of 5.580 criminal proceedings
7 had been carried out in relation to the military operations carried out
8 in the former Sectors North and South," and further discussions of at
9 what stages those proceedings are.
10 Now, when you left or after you issued your final report,
11 Mrs. Rehn, was -- you still were dealing with Dr. Granic primarily from
12 the Ministry of Foreign Affairs; correct?
13 A. When I left my mission as Special Rapporteur, of course, I was
14 totally concentrated on my new mission. That was a much -- that was a
15 UN mission directly as the SIG chief or UNMIK in Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 But I was dealing with the leading team. The international team from
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina was invited by President Tudjman then, Mr. Granic was
18 present in year 1998/1999 sometime, and so on.
19 Q. Okay. And President Tudjman was still president of Croatia at
20 that time, was he not?
21 A. Yes. Otherwise, he should not have been inviting us.
22 Q. One final area I wanted to cover, Mrs. Rehn, relates to the issue
23 of --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I hope an area which will not take one or two
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: It will not, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I encouraged you 25 minutes, it's now 29.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 I'm just looking for my D document here, Your Honour. 3D00-1689.
5 Q. Mrs. Rehn, I know you had a question about the nature and extent
6 of what people were being amnestied for. This is the December 30th
7 amnesty declaration of President Tudjman. We have a partial draft
8 translation. It's 47 pages long.
9 And you will see that the first gentleman is -- who was charged
10 with armed insurgency was noted to be exempt from criminal persecution;
11 and the same thing for the last particular person, Mr. Babic, also exempt
12 from criminal prosecution and the charge was armed insurgency.
13 So I don't know if that clears up your recollection or potential
14 confusion, but I wanted to make sure that you were aware on what those
15 charges were and how they were exempted.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I would like to offer this into
17 evidence, and I will be done.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Information taken.
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask specific attention, I have not checked the
20 whole of the translation, but that someone is exempt from criminal
21 "persecution" comes as a surprise in a state document.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, it's probably supposed to be
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please have a proper look at the
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I will tender it, and I will be completed.
2 Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit number D693.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D693 is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you for the extra time, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I am sorry for the housekeeping
11 matter. We've been trying to find this issue Mr. Kuzmanovic raised about
12 and exhibit not being appended. It was 3D00-1588, and I'm not sure if
13 that exhibit has been admitted into evidence by the Prosecution
14 because --
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The chart is attached to the exhibit that was
16 tendered by the Prosecution. It is at page -- well, I can't recall the
17 exact page, but --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's the 33-page document?
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The chart and the explanation are found in the
21 later stages of this. I think the chart is table 1 attached to it.
22 MR. MISETIC: Can we have the exhibit number, though, for the
23 entire exhibit?
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: P600.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And I think it's table 1, and in the exhibit itself
1 is the 26th page out of 31.
2 Ms. Mahindaratne, do you have any further questions?
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you. Yes, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you try to conclude within 13 minutes, so that
5 the Chamber --
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- has an opportunity to ask additional questions as
8 well --
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- to the extent not already put to the witness.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call document number D669, please.
13 Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
14 Q. Mrs. Rehn, in fact, you have been questioned extensively about
15 the general amnesty. If you want to follow the hard copy, it's at tab 4.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if I could ask, Mr. Registrar, to take us
17 to page 19. So that we don't waste time, I'll quickly refer you to the
19 Q. Mrs. Rehn, at paragraph 72, you report in the following matter:
20 "On 30 December 1995
21 amnesty to 451 Krajina Serbs accused of 'armed rebellion' for their
22 alleged military support of the so-called 'Republic of Serb Krajina
23 This decision of the Croatian Government was noted with appreciation by
24 the Security Council in a statement by the President dated 8 January
25 1996. Nevertheless, the Special Rapporteur is of the opinion that a
1 general amnesty, which has not yet been decreed, is a condition sine qua
2 non for the return of Croatian Serbs, who will otherwise fear prosecution
3 for having served in the army of so-called 'Republic Serb Krajina.'"
4 Now, if I could also take you, Mrs. Rehn, to page 26 at
5 paragraph 109. In your recommendations, you recommend as follows: "In
6 order to build confidence and provide security, the Croatian authorities
7 should increase policing and humanitarian projects in the former Sectors.
8 A general amnesty should be decreed for all former combatants of the
9 so-called 'Republic of Serb Krajina,' and the return of Croatian Serb
10 refugees now in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and elsewhere should
11 be facilitated."
12 Now, whom did you intend and whom did the international community
13 intend to be the beneficiary of this general amnesty that you were
14 proposing? And if you could be brief since I'm running out of time.
15 A. Yes, I will be brief. It's my interest to be brief. It's my
16 clear opinion that we thought of the Serbs that have escaped for some or
17 another reason during the Operation Storm, and to make it possible not to
18 have an obstacle through this, to get general amnesty. So it was
19 directed to the Serbs. Of course, what has been raised about that law
20 must be the same to all nationalities is, of course, clear. But for my
21 part, I was thinking of the Serbs.
22 Q. And whatever group the persons, beneficiaries, belonged to, did
23 you intend the acts that amnesty would relate to be common crimes such as
24 theft or looting? Is that what was intended, or did you intend it to be
25 prosecution for participation --
1 MR. MISETIC: That's leading, Your Honour, again.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, I'll leave it at this,
4 Mr. President. I've asked the question now.
5 MR. MISETIC: The question was already leading, so I'd ask that
6 it be stricken or at least be reformulated.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me check.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I rephrase, Mr. President?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one second, please.
10 Yes, please do so.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
12 Q. Mrs. Rehn, did you understand this general amnesty to include
13 amnesty from prosecution of common crimes such as theft?
14 A. It's very difficult for me to even --
15 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour --
16 JUDGE ORIE: You object against the question on?
17 MR. MISETIC: On what is she specifically referring to? I mean,
18 now we need to know -- the law wasn't passed until August. She's
19 crossing her with a document from March. She's asking her opinion of a
20 law that wasn't passed until six months earlier.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that Ms. Mahindaratne
22 was asking not about a specific -- yes, now you're referring to the law.
23 Was what you had in mind as far as an amnesty was concerned, did
24 you have in mind that the aim should be to prevent prosecution of those
25 who had actively participated or were members of the armed forces, called
1 often the rebellion forces; or that it should be wider to include not
2 only this rebellion-type participating in the armed forces, but going
3 beyond that, common crimes such as theft and others?
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour, for making it clear for --
5 the question quite clear for me. With my democratic background, it would
6 have been impossible for me to ask for amnesty for crimes, common crimes.
7 It was a question just of those who were involved in the battles of -- in
8 the Krajina.
9 So my opinion, at least, is that we - and I especially - were
10 talking about excluding, of course, crimes from amnesty. It was a
11 question of a war that took -- and fighting that took place, and that you
12 should not as a simple soldier be put into trial because of that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: So that --
15 JUDGE ORIE: So that having been a soldier in the --
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- in the wrong army, in the rebellion army.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, in the wrong army or whatever army. There are
19 many wrong armies.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Mr. Registrar, if I could quickly call document number P639.
22 Q. Mrs. Rehn, that's at tab 5, your 7th November report. If you
23 could look at paragraph 41, you were questioned about your report at
24 paragraph 4, and it says: "However, the Special Rapporteur points out
25 that a couple thousand Croatian Serb refugees are already waiting in
2 bureaucratic missions instituted by Croatian officials."
3 Now, at the time you wrote this report, did you receive that
4 information as if those persons were at that time waiting, or did you
5 perceive that they had been there for some time? What was the
6 information? Was it contemporaneous information, or was it -- did you
7 relate it to a different time-frame?
8 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, it's leading and it's four different
9 options to the witness on which option she wishes to take.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you mention all the options, then you're
11 still leading at what the options are, and at the same time the reason
12 why you should not lead the witness disappears at the same time.
13 Ms. Mahindaratne --
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, it was because I'm running out
15 of time, and I just wanted to narrow down the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Well, the more options you give, the more
17 you run out of time. Could you try to rephrase the question. I mean, if
18 there's damage, it's done already. We're not going to strike this from
19 the record.
20 To the extent you've understood the question by Ms. Mahindaratne,
21 could you give a brief answer?
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I got the information from several
23 sources of my staff and others that there are Serb refugees from Croatia
24 who are waiting, who are trying to get the permission to come back again,
25 and to claim for their property. I can't say if they had been there from
1 the whole -- the whole time or if there was something that had happened
2 just now that they have gone over borders to Hungary and waited that way
3 to come back to Croatia
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
5 Q. Mrs. Rehn, you took over as Special Rapporteur on 27th September
6 1995; that's correct, isn't it?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Now, you were questioned about the property laws. On the same
9 page, if you look at paragraph 38 and 39, you deal with property laws.
10 And in paragraph 39, you say: "It remains unclear what the status of the
11 property is after the 90 days are over, even though it has been
12 stipulated that the ownership of unclaimed property will be dealt with by
13 a special law."
14 Did you ever understand as to what happened if an owner did not
15 return within the 90 days stipulated time and claimed that property, as
16 to what would happen to that property?
17 A. That was what we were very much worried about what will happen to
18 it, because we knew that the Croatian authorities needed property, homes,
19 for those many hundred thousands of displaced and also refugees in
21 could rely upon that they don't lose the right to their own property. I
22 can't just answer this now more than this that it was what we were
23 worried about.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I have only one last question.
25 Q. And what happened if the claimants or the owners returned within
1 three months, did they -- as you know the law or as according to your
2 information, were they given their property back immediately or was there
3 some other condition which was required?
4 A. In principle, in theory, they should give -- get their property
5 back. But as I have been describing, there were cases that I witnessed
6 myself that people have come back, they had the rights to the property,
7 but somebody else was staying in their home, and they couldn't just get
8 them out because they didn't have anywhere to go. It was a complicated
9 situation altogether.
10 Q. And I read this last sentence to you. You read: "Furthermore,
11 even if the owner does return within the dead-line, his or her property
12 will not be restored until the Croatian citizen to whom the property has
13 been given receives another appropriate property for possession and use."
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
16 MR. MISETIC: The witness gave her answer, she wasn't satisfied
17 with the answer, now we're reading from the report.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have not heard the question Ms. Mahindaratne
19 wanted to put. She said I'll read the last sentence to you, that's what
20 she did, and then I expect a question to follow. But I do not know what
21 this question is about, whether the witness remembers ever to have read
22 this text before, or whether it was she who drafted it or one of her
23 staff. I haven't heard a question yet.
24 What would your question be, Ms. Mahindaratne.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And that would be my last.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You may understand that Mr. Misetic would strongly
2 object against the question, Is this what your actual answer would be,
3 because then it would not be leading but it would become a university
4 example of leading.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President, I had a question, but
6 Mr. Misetic did not give me the option.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please put your question which is expected not
8 to be a leading question.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
10 Q. Mrs. Rehn, and what was the basis for what you have reported
11 there about the property being restored to the owner if the Croatian
12 occupant was given another suitable property? Now, what was the basis?
13 Was that included in the law or was it based on information that you --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now you start leading, Ms. Mahindaratne.
15 THE WITNESS: May I respond?
16 JUDGE ORIE: You were doing so well in just asking what's the
17 basis for that, and then you started to give a few propositions to the
18 witness, which Mr. Misetic wouldn't like.
19 MR. MISETIC: I feel like a jack-in-the-box, Your Honour.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. But I must say that I have fallen out from
21 this too in the sense that this exact legislation and what will happen
22 then was not clear for me, and I counted on that in the moment the
23 apartment was released for the proper owner, they will get it. But I'm
24 not sure that it happened every time. But this is my answer on this, and
25 that's certainly not satisfactory. But I don't want to make any kind of
1 different statement.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That concludes re-examination, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Gwaunza has --
6 Mr. Misetic.
7 MR. MISETIC: Two short questions, and I will do it in less than
8 a minute, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think we now give priority to the Bench's
11 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll see whether there's still time left.
13 Judge Gwaunza
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes, Mrs. Rehn, if I could take you back to your
16 report of 7 November 1995
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Page 9, paragraph 25, specifically paragraph
19 25(c), where you stated that: "On 12 August, it was reported that a
20 number of elderly persons were burnt to death in the village of Komic
22 I just want to ask whether you had recall any more details about
23 this incident.
24 A. Your Honour, I'm very sorry, but I can't recall more about this.
25 There were several, several brutal murders during that time of civilians,
1 and we, of course, especially looked into them. But I have mentioned,
2 but nobody else is interested in that, the Grubori case several times.
3 And that was something I was very much dealing with since I never got the
4 proper answers.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Rehn, I can tell you that in this courtroom,
6 the Grubori incident has received a lot of attention until now. It
7 just --
8 A. That makes me very pleased.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, but it's fine.
10 Judge Gwaunza.
11 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yeah. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have no further questions and since
13 Mr. Misetic promised that he would need one minute for two questions.
14 Mr. Misetic.
15 MR. MISETIC: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I appreciate it.
16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:
17 Q. Mrs. Rehn, was it your intention in advocating for a general
18 amnesty law that the Government of Croatia in 1996 could charge Serbs
19 for, let's say, stealing a refrigerator or burning a house between 1991
20 and 1995?
21 A. They will definitely not be able to charge, I think I already
22 answered that question, that my Nordic democracy is really not allowing
23 amnesty from criminal acts.
24 Q. So the answer is your belief is that, yes, the Croatian
25 government could continue to prosecute Serbs for stealing a refrigerator,
1 for example?
2 A. Mm-hmm.
3 Q. Is that a yes?
4 A. Yes. I have answered that already once.
5 Q. Then the last question for you is: Do you think that, if that
6 were the case, that Serbs would have felt any material difference in
7 their ability to return to Croatia
8 Croatian government to put them in jail upon their return?
9 A. Yes, absolutely, because it was an important part of these. But
10 what they were worried about was the list that was presented. Because
11 when you are not on a list and you have been in the combat as an ordinary
12 combatant, then you can be worried about what will happen to you. I
13 think we should forget about the civilian criminal acts. We should just
14 concentrate on these that what happened during the Operation Storm and
15 the combats.
16 Q. Well, we have a broader issues here to deal with. So the
17 question is you've brought up the lists. You do recall that the
18 international community, and the United Nations specifically, told the
19 Croatian government to put together a list of 25 Serbs who could be
20 prosecuted for war crimes, and that the rest of them were to consider
21 themselves to be immune from prosecution before Croatian courts; isn't
22 that correct?
23 A. I'm talking for myself. I think that we, again, must make a
24 clear the difference between the Special Rapporteur, her capacity, and
25 not representing the high-level international community, United Nations
1 decisions and so on. And I find this quite important, that we keep this
2 in mind, because it's putting me as a witness in a quite awkward
3 situation to answer questions for the United Nations and international
4 community, when with the background, a Special Rapporteur must have for
5 her work.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you used 300 per cent of your time.
7 THE WITNESS: And I took something of that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, Mr. Misetic did not ask one minute
9 to put questions, put to hear the answers well.
10 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I don't have a question. Just with
12 respect to this law on temporary taking -- the taking or use of property,
13 the law itself is D428. It's in evidence, it's translated, it's in
14 English. So if the Court can't for itself determine --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we'll not ask the witness to interpret
16 legal texts.
17 Mrs. Rehn, at least, yes, this concludes your testimony in this
18 court. I'd like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague
19 for having answered the many, many questions put to you by the parties
20 and not that many by the Bench. I wish you a safe trip home again.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. It has been a pleasure to
22 be working together with the four of you and the others.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mrs. Rehn out of
24 the courtroom
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ORIE: There is one tiny procedural issue which I would
2 like to briefly raise. For this afternoon -- for this Friday afternoon,
3 a hearing has been scheduled, and, apparently, for practical purposes the
4 registry has inquired into whether the accused wanted to be present or
5 not. This was not initiated by the Chamber because the Chamber considers
6 a hearing under Rule 54 bis the same hearing, unless specific requests
7 are made by the state too. We have considered this hearing as just an
8 ordinary hearing.
9 Meanwhile, the Chamber is informed of the accused to waive their
10 right to be present, which I understand prefer not to be present, and one
11 accused has chosen to be present. I just put this on the record that
12 inquiring into the matter which the Chamber might not have spontaneously
13 done, but I do understand that there might be practical reasons for that,
14 might create a situation in which one of the accused would say, "Well, I
15 wasn't aware that the other would come," whatever it is. You can
16 consider or reconsider, and I'm not encouraging you to do so. But if you
17 want to reconsider your choice to be present or not to be present, please
18 let the registry know as soon as possible in view of the practical
19 implications. May I take it that certainly not later than by today this
20 is done.
21 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn and we'll adjourn tomorrow, the 17th
23 of July, at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon. And we'll be,
24 Mr. Registrar, in Courtroom II where we will hear the testimony through
25 videolink. We have the reasons for the decision on the videolink
1 requested for Witness 172 ready. But since I do understand that for all
2 kind of practical purposes we'll not hear that evidence anyhow, this
3 Friday, we'll not further burden the interpreters and transcribers at
4 this moment, but the reasons are ready.
5 We stand adjourned until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of
8 July, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.