1 Monday, 25 August 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone after a long time, in
6 which we have not seen each other.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Mr. Tieger or Mr. Waespi, I don't know who to address. Are you
13 ready to -- is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, it is, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls
15 Mr. Erik Lennart Widen.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.
17 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
19 No protective measures, Ms. Gustafson?
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I already raise the issue now that from
22 written submissions from the 13th, the 15th, and the 18th of August, it
23 appears that the Defence has no objection against the admission of the 92
24 ter statement.
25 MR. KEHOE: That's correct, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Widen. Before you give evidence
4 in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a
5 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and
6 nothing but the truth.
7 The text is now handed out to you. Could you please make that
8 solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: ERIK LENNART WIDEN
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Widen. Please be seated.
13 Mr. Widen, you are not a native English-speaking person. If
14 there would ever be any problem either in understanding or in expressing
15 yourself in the English language, which I assume is the language in which
16 you'll be examined and in which you will answer, please let me know.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Gustafson, please proceed.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examination by Ms. Gustafson:
21 Q. Mr. Widen, can you please state your full name for the record.
22 A. Widen, Erik Lennart.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could the witness please be shown 65 ter number
25 5360, and if he could be provided hard copies of his witness statements.
1 Q. Mr. Widen, do you recognise the statement you see on the screen
2 and the first one of the two that were just handed to you as a statement
3 you made and signed on the 14th of December, 1995?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: And could the witness now be shown 65 ter number
7 5361, please.
8 Q. Mr. Widen, do you recognise the statement on the screen now and
9 the second one of the two that were just handed to you as a statement you
10 made and signed on 26th and 27th of February, 2008, and in which you made
11 a number of corrections and clarifications to your earlier 1995
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we please move to page 5 of this statement.
15 Q. At the bottom of page 5 in paragraph 30, there's a reference
16 there to the policija station referenced in paragraph 15 above. Should
17 that in fact be a reference to paragraph 29 above?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: And can we move to the appendix page of this
20 document, please.
21 Q. In paragraph 34 of this page, the first sentence says: "The
22 looting in Knin went on for ten days from about 6 August to 16th August."
23 And is that 10-day period, is that an exact period of time or an
24 approximate period of time?
25 A. I would say approximately.
1 Q. Thank you. And with those corrections to these two statements
2 taken together, are they true and accurate to the best of your knowledge?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And do the statements reflect what you said at the time they were
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And if I asked you in court today the same questions you were
8 asked when you gave these statements, would you give the Court the same
9 answers that are in those statements?
10 A. Of course, yes.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I would like to tender these
12 statements into evidence, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, I take it also not
14 after the small correction just made by the witness, Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 05360 becomes Exhibit number
16 P721; and 65 ter 05361 becomes Exhibit number P722.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P721 and P722 are admitted into evidence. Please
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour, and I would like also to
20 distribute to the Court and to each of the Defence teams hard copies of
21 the photograph of Knin that's attached to the witness's second statement.
22 The markings are hard to make out in e-court, and if I could read a
23 summary of the witness's 92 ter statement at this time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that you have explained what the
25 purpose of this is?
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Erik Lennart Widen worked as an UNCIVPOL monitor
4 in Knin between the end of June 1995 and approximately the 20th of
5 August, 1995. On the 4th of August, he was woken by the sound of
6 shelling at 5.00 a.m.
7 where he stayed until approximately 6.00 p.m. the following day, when he
8 took shelter in a neighbour's apartment.
9 Mr. Widen observed that the shelling ceased at approximately 1.00
11 tanks and small-arms fire and could hear soldiers shooting and breaking
12 down doors.
13 At approximately 7.00 on the morning of 6 August, Mr. Widen left
14 his neighbour's apartment and walked to the UN compound in Knin. A few
15 hours later, he went on a foot patrol of Knin with another UNCIVPOL
16 official. They saw soldiers driving military vehicles out of Knin that
17 contained television sets and furniture and saw members of the
18 Puma Brigade carrying goods that appeared to be stolen. Mr. Widen saw
19 signs of shelling damage to several residential buildings in Knin.
20 Mr. Widen observed that the looting of Knin continued for
21 approximately ten days, beginning on the 6th of August. A check-point
22 had been set up on the bridge over the River Krka in Knin by 7.00 a.m.
23 the 6th of August. The soldiers and police manning the check-point did
24 not stop the vehicles filled with goods that soldiers were driving out of
1 That completes the summary, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON:
4 Q. Mr. Widen, I'd like to ask you a few questions about what's in
5 your statements. I will begin by asking you one or two questions about
6 events in Knin prior to the 4th of August; Most of my question also be
7 about events in Knin on the 5th and 6th of August, and I will ask a few
8 questions at the end about events after the 6th of August.
9 My first question is about the mobilisation in Knin that you talk
10 about at paragraph 43 of your 2008 statement. You described seeing a
11 regiment of approximately 500 ARSK troops in Knin during a mobilisation
12 that took place; And I'd like that ask you, how long before Operation
13 Storm did this mobilisation take place, if you can remember.
14 A. No, I can't remember, but -- no.
15 Q. Do you have any recollection of what the extent of the presence
16 of ARSK troops was right before Operation Storm, in Knin?
17 A. After Operation Storm, you saw no Serbian soldier.
18 Q. Right before Operation Storm, do you remember what the presence
19 of ARSK troops was? Like, on the 2nd and 3rd of August.
20 A. What I saw was those who were sitting in the cafes in Knin.
21 There seems to be, let's say, not real soldiers but they were armed, and
22 then outside the school, I mentioned in my witness -- I saw about 500
23 soldiers, and among them, also, this man Mladic. He was also there. And
24 how many days, now, it is very difficult to say.
25 Q. Are you saying that you don't remember exactly how many days this
1 was before Storm?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 50 of your 2008 statement, you
4 describe how you heard the noises of vehicles leaving Knin on the night
5 of the 4th, after the shelling had started, and you estimated that you
6 thought about 80 per cent of the population left Knin on the night of the
7 4th and during the 5th. And I'd like to ask you: In the two or three
8 days before Operation Storm, did you see any organised movement of
9 civilians out of Knin?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you see any significant numbers of civilians leaving Knin
12 before Operation Storm in those two or three days?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move now to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, one of the previous answers seems to
16 create a problem. Your question was the presence of ARSK troops. The
17 witness first answered by telling us what was the situation after
18 Operation Storm. Then you repeated your question, said, what, like, on
19 the 2nd and 3rd of August. Then the witness gave an answer, and then at
20 the end he said, And how many days, it is difficult to say.
21 So I would like to know that the 500 people you were asking
22 about, was that at the moment you do not remember, or do you say it was
23 two or three days before Operation Storm, but I do not know whether it
24 was the 2nd or the 3rd; or was it longer ago?
25 THE WITNESS: Let's say, between -- it could be ten days before.
1 It could be three days before. I can't remember it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you're talking about the 500, you say it
3 could be as many as ten days, but it could have been also two days.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Now it's clear to me.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON:
9 Q. I'd like to move to events on the 5th and 6th of August. In your
10 1995 statement at the second page, which is marked as page 1, and as
11 well, in paragraph 12 of your 2008 statement, you described how the
12 shelling stopped about 1.00 p.m.
13 tanks and small-arms fire at about 3.00 p.m.
14 Can you describe for the Trial Chamber the sounds of small-arms
15 fire that you heard?
16 A. When I heard the fire from the small arms, it was down where I
17 lived. It was a house with many apartments, and I heard the kick in the
18 doors, and immediately after they kicked the door, I could hear
20 So that's the time when I recognised that Croatian soldier have
21 come into Knin.
22 Q. You said you heard the kick of the doors, and immediately after
23 the kick you heard the machine-gun fire. Do you remember approximately
24 how many times you heard that pattern?
25 A. It went out for hours, so ... how many times I don't know.
1 Q. And where were you -- you were in your apartment at this time,
2 according to your statement. Where exactly in your apartment were you?
3 A. I was sitting on the floor near the chimney because if the
4 grenade have come, I thought that was the best place to be.
5 Q. Mm-hm. And when you heard the sounds of small-arms fire, did you
6 hear anything to you that sounded to you like people were firing at each
7 other or anything like an exchange of fire?
8 A. No.
9 Q. In your 1995 statement on the second page, you describe how you
10 moved to the basement of your neighbour's apartment during the evening of
11 the 5th of August, and you describe how there were about 15 other people
12 in that basement and you say there were women, children, and some men.
13 Do you remember approximately how many of the 15 or so people
14 there were men?
15 A. I can't remember that, but less than half of the people there.
16 Four, five men, perhaps.
17 Q. And what was the atmosphere like in the basement with the other
18 15 people? How were the people feeling?
19 A. They were scared, and they asked for my protection, and I said I
20 do whatever I can, so I stay with them.
21 Q. And at the second and third pages of your 1995 statement and at
22 paragraphs 15 to 20 of your 2008 statement, you describe how you left the
23 flat where you were sitting with the other people at 7.00 a.m. in the
24 morning of the 6th of August?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then you walked to the UN headquarters in Knin, and you
2 passed a check-point manned by HV soldiers on the way.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you describe seeing soldiers during this walk.
5 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me. I have to object to that. The -- what he
6 describes is a check-point that was manned by the military police and
7 civilian soldiers.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, Your Honour. I think at paragraph 47 the
9 witness states that when he first passed the check-point it was manned by
10 HV soldiers in flat olive green fatigues, and then when he returned to
11 the check-point later that day it was manned by military police and
12 civilian police.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. My read of that was that he was
15 talking about the same set of people at the check-point, that these were
16 the people there going in, these were the --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that, of course, now becomes a matter which
18 is -- the objection is denied, and I think it would have been a matter to
19 seek clarification in cross-examination rather than to start debating the
20 interpretation of what the statement actually said because the language
21 as quoted by Ms. Gustafson seems to be correct one, isn't it?
22 MR. KEHOE: Well, then, Your Honour, then I would object to the
23 leading at that point because, I mean, I've let the leading go so we
24 could get through this expeditiously, but that was a clearly leading
25 question, so it --
1 JUDGE ORIE: But isn't --
2 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge, but I just want to put on the
3 record that if I can't, you know, interject when I think there's
4 something in error, then I would object to the leading.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I don't consider it leading to refer
7 to a witness's statement that's already in evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I was wondering; therefore I was re-reading.
9 Yes. As a matter of fact, it might have been a superfluous
10 question because it just repeats what is already in evidence. Mr. Kehoe,
11 would you agree to that?
12 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I actually -- I haven't
15 gotten to my question yet.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, sometimes what is superfluous can be a
17 way of introducing a next question. I'm aware of that, but I tried to
18 get out of whether you misrepresented the statement of the witness,
19 whether it was a leading question, or whether it was just putting to the
20 witness what was already in evidence.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Widen, I would like to ask you at this time, when you were
24 walking to the UN compound you describe seeing soldiers and you state in
25 your statement the soldiers were shooting all the time; whether for
1 amusement or to frighten people, I can't say.
2 And I would like you just to describe to the Trial Chamber the
3 shooting that you observed when you were walking to the UN compound.
4 A. It was on the right side of the street. It was a lot of houses,
5 small houses, and outside those houses the Croatian soldier were sitting,
6 and they were drunk, celebration, perhaps, that they have come to Knin.
7 I don't know.
8 But they start shooting when I walk, and I have the feeling that
9 they want me to get down and beg for my life or whatever. But I just
10 walk, and it was 700 metres I have to walk there, and -- yeah.
11 Q. And where were they shooting? Was the shooting aimed at
13 A. They were not -- I -- no hit and I didn't see any bullets on the
14 street or something, but -- over my head, but I was a little bit scared
15 because if you are drunk and shooting like that, you can also miss. So I
16 was a little bit scared, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. And in -- on the third and fourth pages of your 1995
18 statement and, as well, at paragraphs 47 to 49 of your 2009 statement,
19 you describe a foot patrol that you and your Sector Chief went on a
20 little later that morning, and you describe how you were stopped at the
21 same check-point that you had originally passed. You have marked that
22 check-point with the letter K on the photograph attached to your
23 statement, and you describe seeing military vehicles driven with soldiers
24 leaving Knin, passing that check-point.
25 And I'd like to ask you, approximately how many of these military
1 vehicles did you see during this hour or so you were stopped at the
2 check-point filled with goods?
3 A. Let's say -- I'm not sure, but at least ten of them. Ten
4 vehicles were leaving at that time.
5 Q. And you explained that the vehicles were loaded with goods, such
6 as TVs, videos, and furniture.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How was it that you were able to see these goods in the vehicles?
9 A. It was open, and -- on the back on the vehicles and it was open,
10 so I could see -- I could see that it was goods going out, yes.
11 Q. Were these vehicles trucks?
12 A. Yes. You can say truck, yes.
13 Q. And at paragraph 48 of your 2008 statement, you state that at
14 this time the check-point was manned by military police soldiers and
15 civilian police. Do you remember approximately how many people manned
16 this check-point at this time?
17 A. On the first time when I came there at 7.00 in the morning, it
18 was two or three military guys there, and when we came back it was also
19 policija, so let's say six to eight people.
20 Q. And you've described in the third and fourth pages of your 1995
21 statement and paragraph 22 of your 2008 statement how after you passed
22 the check-point you saw a lot of soldiers wearing the badge of the Puma
23 Battalion carrying goods. What kind of goods did you see these soldiers
25 A. It was -- most it was TV and video and, also, furniture.
1 Q. And did you see what they were doing with the goods, where they
2 were carrying them, what -- if they were putting them somewhere?
3 A. They put it onto the trucks, and then they were driving outside
4 of Knin somewhere.
5 Q. And based on your observations, did the soldiers appear to be
6 trying to hide what they were doing or were they acting more or less
8 A. Openly.
9 Q. And did the soldiers react in any way to the presence of you and
10 your Sector Chief in Knin?
11 A. Yeah. They ask us -- told us that it could be mines, so we
12 shouldn't be there. We should not be at the place because it could be
13 mines there, but we walked on, yes.
14 Q. Did you see any activity that you could observe was aimed at
15 trying to locate mines?
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. And can you give the Trial Chamber an idea as to how many
18 soldiers you saw carrying goods in this way in Knin on the 6th of August?
19 A. Hard to say. If I say 50, it could be 100, it could be -- but at
20 least 50 of them.
21 Q. And at the fourth page of your 1995 statement, you describe that
22 when you were at the policija station a man who claimed to be the chief
23 of military police told you you were not allowed to be there and took you
24 back to the UN headquarters.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did he gave you any reason why you were not allowed to be there?
2 A. He said that no UN personnel were allowed to be outside, out in
4 Q. Did he tell you why?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. And throughout the 6th of August, during your initial walk to the
7 headquarters, the UN headquarters and during your later foot patrol, did
8 you see any signs of any combat taking place in Knin?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And the soldiers that you saw on the 6th of August, did it appear
11 to that you they were on the alert for a possible combat or possible
12 enemy forces?
13 A. No. A lot of them were drunk, so I think they were celebrating.
14 Q. And at the fourth page of your 1995 statement, after you arrived
15 back at the UN headquarters on the 6th, you describe how you observed
16 soldiers taking cars which refugees had used to arrive at the UN
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you describe to the Trial Chamber what you saw?
20 A. At the HQ, I was standing at the gate and as soon as somebody
21 coming to -- for protection inside the camp, they put the car, and after
22 a while a soldier came, and they took the car and drive away.
23 Q. And can you remember now approximately how many times you saw
24 this happen, a car being driven by someone to take refuge and a soldier
25 driving it away?
1 A. No, I can't say that, but we were talking about it inside, that
2 it was not fair to steal like that.
3 Q. And now I'd like to ask you a few questions about events in Knin
4 after the 6th of August.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, if you would you not mind, I'd like
6 to seek some clarification on one of the previous questions. That was
7 your question about paragraph 48 of the 2008 statement.
8 Mr. Widen, you answered a question as follows: "On the first
9 time when I came there, 7.00 in the morning, it was two or three military
10 guys there, and when we came back it was also policija, so let's say six
11 to eight people."
12 This answer suggests, at least in my understanding, that when you
13 came there, there were two or three military guys and that when you
14 returned that in addition to them, there was also policija.
15 Now, if I look at your statement in paragraph 47, you further
16 explain that the check-point was manned by HV soldiers. In paragraph 48,
17 you explained that when you returned that it was then manned by military
18 police soldiers and police.
19 Now, it is not entirely clear to me what you saw when you
20 returned. When you went, at least as what I understand from your
21 statement and your testimony, is that these were soldiers. When you
22 returned, it appears from your statement and from your testimony that
23 there was policija; but were the soldiers replaced by military policemen,
24 or were there military policemen in addition to - if I could call it that
25 way - the plain soldiers that you had seen when you first passed this
2 THE WITNESS: It was not the same people when I came back. It
3 was other people there, and it was military police, military people and
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So when you came, it was one category --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- soldiers. When you returned, it was soldiers,
8 military police, and what you call policija?
9 Thank you. Please proceed.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. At paragraph 33 of your 2008 statement, you describe seeing
12 military vehicles loaded with goods going past the UN headquarters
13 everyday. When you saw these vehicles go by, was there generally just
14 one soldier there each vehicle, was there generally more than one soldier
15 per vehicle, or was there no general pattern that you observed?
16 A. Normally, it was a driver and some people in the back, on -- on
17 the vehicle.
18 Q. And was it a mixture of soldiers and civilians or just soldiers?
19 A. Soldiers. Only soldiers.
20 Q. And what kind of goods were these vehicles carrying?
21 A. It was the same all the time, furniture and this electronic
23 Q. And are you able to estimate how many of these vehicles you saw
24 in total going past the UN headquarters?
25 A. No, I can't. It -- but you can count them in -- it must be
1 around 50 to 100 vehicles. It could be the same vehicles going and
2 coming and reloading and coming back, I don't know, but it was many.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Now I'd like if the witness could be shown
5 Exhibit D65, and this is an UNCIVPOL report dated the 12th of August,
7 Q. It's drafted by you, Mr. Widen, and it's discussed at paragraph
8 55 of your 2008 statement. It should be on the screen now in front of
9 you. Do you -- are you able to see the document clearly?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you recall this incident?
12 A. On the left side, I remember.
13 Q. The left side is the -- is the English; the right side is a
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. So you can focus on the left-hand side.
17 A. Okay. Yes.
18 Q. I'd like to ask you about this incident. When you and your
19 UNCIVPOL colleague went into the house, what did you see?
20 A. Inside, in the kitchen, on the chair, it was an older man sitting
21 dead, and it had start smelling. And if I go inside the room there, it
22 was a younger man lying just close to the -- to the window, and he was
23 also dead. And it was warm that day, so perhaps -- I don't know how long
24 they have been dead, but it smelled.
25 So what we have to do in that time where we have to inform the
1 policija about this. When we found any dead bodies, we have to inform
2 the police about that, and they came to the spot, and then they told us
3 we were lucky we didn't went inside because it was armed with the mines
4 inside, and he also show us one mine in his hand. But we know that that
5 wasn't true because we have been there before, but we didn't tell him
6 about that.
7 Q. When you say you didn't tell him about that, what didn't you tell
9 A. We just say, Thank you, and then we left the spot there.
10 Q. Can I just ask you, you say that the policeman said that you were
11 lucky you didn't go inside.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But you had been inside.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When the police arrived, were you still inside?
16 A. No. We were waiting outside.
17 Q. And what did -- what was your overall impression of this scene
18 inside the house?
19 A. I don't know if I have the right English word, but execution.
20 When you -- the man sitting on the chair, he was shoot -- shot where he
21 was sitting, and I think the younger man were trying to escape and he was
22 shot when he tried to escape.
23 Q. Did you see any signs of bullet wounds?
24 A. No. This -- the bodies were -- let's say, when you have been
25 dead for perhaps a couple of days in that warm weather, it was not that
1 easy to -- we didn't touch them. We didn't try to know how -- how they
2 got killed, but -- so this is something -- I can't say they were shot
3 with one bullet or ten. I don't know.
4 Q. And the report says that the bodies were taken to the hospital in
5 Knin. Did you see the bodies being taken out of the house?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And were you ever able to confirm whether or not the bodies were
8 taken to the Knin hospital?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And do you know why the report says that they were taken to the
11 Knin hospital? Do you know where that information came from?
12 A. If I remember right, the policija, when they came and took the
13 bodies, they told us, We will take them to the -- I think it was from
14 that. I don't know.
15 Q. And do you remember if there was anyone else from the UN with you
16 other than your UNCIVPOL colleague who is mentioned in this report when
17 you went to this scene?
18 A. No, it was just --
19 Q. Sorry, it was just the two of you? Is that what you said?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: I have no further questions, Your Honour. I'd
22 just like to point out that the victims referenced in this report are
23 Killing Victims number 162 and 163 as numbered in the clarification that
24 the Prosecution filed on the 16th of July, and we've tendered the
25 documents associated with these victims in our 5th of August motion to
1 admit killing-related materials from the Bar table.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Mr. Widen. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question to clarify one of your
5 answers. You were asked whether these were trucks and then you said, You
6 could call them trucks. What would you call trucks which are not trucks?
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, but it's -- I know what -- in Swedish,
8 we say "lastbil," but I don't know if anybody can speak -- but ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact one of our legal
10 officers who is not a trained interpreter, but if the parties would not
11 object against Mr. Nilsson telling us in what he understands to be the
12 English for what the witness just said.
13 Mr. Nilsson, it's a truck?
14 That's a truck.
15 Could you give us -- could you give us an explanation as to a
16 truck is a vehicle which is designed for carrying goods or personnel,
17 more than just driver and one or two passengers.
18 Now, could you give us an impression of the size of the -- of the
19 part of the truck on which here, apparently, goods could be loaded.
20 THE WITNESS: In the front, you normally have a place for one or
21 two -- two or three people sitting, the driver and someone else, and
22 that's it. And then have you this long -- where you can put things on or
23 put soldiers or whatever.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what was approximately the length of that
25 part of the vehicle? Was it three metres, which we would call a very
1 small truck, or would it be six or seven metres?
2 THE WITNESS: Six or seven metres, yes. It was -- those -- not a
3 small truck. It was medium, if I can say.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have seen larger ones, but you have seen
5 smaller ones as well.
6 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were most of these trucks, what was the --
8 were they loaded heavily or slightly or ... could you give us an
9 impression whether they were fully loaded or --
10 THE WITNESS: Fully loaded, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Fully loaded.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Mr. Kehoe, are you first to cross-examine the witness?
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, I am.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Widen, you will now be
17 cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
18 Please proceed.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Widen.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. Mr. Widen, I'd just like to ask you a couple of questions,
23 several questions on matters that didn't come up in direct but were
24 discussed in your two witness statements.
25 And the first I'd like to address is, I notice in your 1995
1 statement - which, pardon me, is P721 - that you noted on paragraph 2
2 that you had initially come to Sector South and you were in another
3 station in Benkovac but that you had to close that statement, and you
4 note that: "During that time I was taken hostage for a few hours. On
5 the 1st of May, I lost seven vehicles which were seized at gunpoint by
6 Serb soldiers."
7 Do you recall that, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And there was a degree of animosity between the Serbs and the UN
10 during this period of time, was there not?
11 A. Can you explain that?
12 Q. Well, the -- what were the Serbs doing to the UN personnel? Why
13 don't we start that way.
14 A. Normal people would have no problem with normal people, but you
15 have kind of soldiers -- as I told you, I saw the same people in Knin
16 later on. I saw these people in -- in Benkovac and -- this seems to have
17 no in charge, if you understand what I say. They were doing whatever
18 they liked to do, and they have a lot of arms, and I recognise one of the
19 guy. He was like a Rambo, and he was the one who came into the station
20 and took me as a hostage for a couple of hours.
21 Q. And did that include these Serbs stealing vehicles from the UN?
22 A. They -- normally, at that time when he took hostage in the
23 station he left with two of our trucks, and before that it was -- we got
24 hijack on the roads. They stop us, one in the front on the way, and then
25 we know that it's always one or two in the back, so if you try to back up
1 and get away, we couldn't do that because they were shooting.
2 So normally I just stopped the vehicle, went out, and give him
3 the key. That's --
4 Q. When this was transpiring, Mr. Widen, did -- after it happened,
5 did you complain to the Serb authorities?
6 A. Of course, I went to the milicija station, and we always
7 complained, but it seems to have no authority. We told the -- the
8 milicija, yeah, there can you see one of our vehicles. Why can't you
9 stop and give it back to us? But he couldn't.
10 Q. And why couldn't he?
11 A. Because there were military people who was in charge, I think.
12 Q. Well, was there a criminal element in this -- among these Serbs
13 who were taking this -- these items?
14 A. I would say so, yes.
15 Q. Now, let me address you to an UNCIVPOL report. If I can pull up
16 P218. Just for your reference, and it will come up on the screen, Mr.
17 Widen, is a UNCIVPOL report. That was a report from 24 through 30 July
18 1995. If you just look at that front sheet, and if we could go into the
19 fourth page. And if we could just blow up that Sector South item at the
20 top. And -- can you see that okay, Mr. Widen?
21 A. Yeah, I can read it now.
22 Q. Okay. In the area at the top of the page under Sector South, it
23 notes that the Croat minority situation in this sector is seemingly worse
24 than that of the Serb minority in Sector West.
25 Do you remember Jan Elleby?
1 A. Oh, yes.
2 Q. And Mr. Elleby testified before this Court on May the 23rd, 2008
3 and at page 3469 he was asked this question after being read this same
4 passage, and I can just start it from line 20: "Now, if you can just
5 take that top paragraph, Sector South there, it notes that in Sector
6 South the Croat minority situation in the sector is seemingly worse than
7 that of the Serb minority in south west. Now, Mr. Elleby, had this
8 pattern abuse of the Croat minorities gone on for some time as you
9 understood the situation in Sector South?"
10 Answer: "Yes, you could say that. And also, there were a lot of
11 restrictions of movement, so from time to time we couldn't move into
12 certain areas as this paper shows. In the end of July, we couldn't
13 actually move anywhere."
14 Now, was that your experience, sir, that the -- prior to
15 Operation Storm that the remaining Croatian population had a very
16 difficult time in Sector South at the hands of the Serbs?
17 A. Perhaps they had. We were helping them with food and visit them,
18 and -- but -- yeah, they have a hard time there, yeah.
19 Q. And were they getting a hard time at the -- from the Serbs who
20 had -- who were in charge of the area?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Now, let's move ahead just a bit. I'll move -- staying on this
23 item on the screen, if we can just look to the first page. If we can go
24 back two pages, please. It's actually not the first -- one more page up,
25 I'm sorry. And if we go down to that area, notes on Sector South.
1 You see that on the bottom there, Mr. Widen?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And we note -- let me just get the last couple of sentences:
4 "All CIVPOL patrols in the area have been suspended by the Sector Chief.
5 UNCIVPOL stations at Knin, Korenica are being kept open with just two
6 monitors and one interpreter. Monitors have been advised to stay in
7 their private accommodations to minimise the risk of hostage-taking."
8 Staying with this exhibit, and let me just note a couple of items
9 for you. If we can move up on that same item, three more pages, and
10 again in that Sector South in -- in, yeah, paragraph 7. That's correct.
11 Without reading it, if we can just look at that paragraph under
12 Sector South, it discusses the murder of a Kenyan battalion soldier and
13 the robbery of 80 litres of fuel that was witnessed by CIVPOL.
14 Now, this -- is this consistent with what you said before of this
15 criminal element within the Serb military?
16 A. I can't recognise anything of this. I haven't -- I haven't seen
18 Q. Well, you can take look at it, sir. This is a UNCIVPOL report.
19 A. From who?
20 Q. From UNCIVPOL headquarters, and it's the weekly report, 24-30
21 July, 1995, where they chronicle each particular sector, and the
22 inclusion that we just had concerning the Kenyan battalion soldier that
23 had been murdered and the robbery of 80 litres of fuel is in the area
24 that is under Sector South?
25 A. Mm-hm. But about this murder, I didn't know that. I haven't
1 heard it.
2 Q. Okay. Well, sir, let me then -- let me go back to your statement
3 itself and talk about some other items and specifically in your 1995
4 statement, if I may.
5 Could you look at the -- and you can look at this. It's on your
6 1995 statement, which is 721, paragraph 7.
7 MR. KEHOE: If we could bring that up on the screen.
8 Q. I think you have the hard copy before you, Mr. Widen, but we can
9 wait for the screen if that's easier for you. It's on page 4 of that
10 document, sir. That's also on the screen if it is easier for you.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Now, we talked a little bit -- you talked a bit about this
13 criminal element among the Serbs that was in existence prior to Operation
14 Storm. I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 7 at the -- we can
15 just read this.
16 "Prior to 4 August, there a lot of people living in Knin, and
17 according to our interpreters it was impossible to find a flat. Schools
18 were functioning at all levels. We had a civil police station beside a
19 big school where there were a large numbers of children until they broke
20 up for summer holidays. The two markets were open for business. There
21 was a particularly large range of products, but most of the shops were
22 open. No banks were open, but a black' --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, did you misspeak? I also heard what we
24 find on the transcript that there was a -- whereas the text you're
25 reading that it is it that there wasn't a particularly large range of
2 MR. KEHOE: I misspoke. There wasn't. There wasn't a
3 particularly large range of products, but most of the shops were open.
4 "No banks were open, but a black market was operating for money."
5 Q. Can you explain to us what this black market was, sir?
6 A. I -- I can't remember, but it probably was that if you like to
7 have local money you have to change it with the civilian. I can't
8 remember this, not --
9 Q. Well, was there a black market for stolen goods in the Krajina
10 when you were there that the Serbs were buying and selling?
11 A. No.
12 Q. There was not?
13 A. No. What I know.
14 Q. That you know. Well, let me turn our attention back to P218, if
15 I may, the fourth page in on 218. And if I could go to the quality of
16 life of section, if we could just blow that up, number 6 at the bottom.
17 And in the middle of that paragraph, if I may, it notes that the
18 "forced closure of businesses not to mention the critical cut-off of the
19 Livno valley supply route is bound to have adverse socio-economic
20 affects. The road through the Bosanski Grahovo was the main smuggling
21 pipeline to Knin, the alternative through Donji Lapac being more
23 Now, the main -- this main smuggling pipeline that this report is
24 referring to, Mr. Widen, do you know what was being smuggled through this
25 pipeline through Bosanski Grahovo?
1 A. I haven't seen -- this is it not what I have been written.
2 Q. No. It is -- this is just a UNCIVPOL report --
3 A. Yeah. But I haven't seen, and I didn't know that it was
4 smuggled. No, I didn't know that.
5 Q. Were you aware of organised crime elements in the Krajina prior
6 to Operation Storm dealing in the black market and smuggling throughout
7 Sector South?
8 A. No, no.
9 Q. I'm just going to shift gears and move to another topic, Mr.
10 Widen, so --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you put a question to the witness, and
12 just for me to better understand the question, you suggested although the
13 witness didn't know anything about it that there was a smuggling
14 pipeline, and what kind of things I have to -- I mean, what -- was it an
15 open question, could smuggling be anything, or --
16 MR. KEHOE: I think -- I think it was virtually -- fuel. I think
17 it was arms. It was a variety of different things. I don't want to
18 testify here, Judge.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I do understand. But apparently you had an
20 idea of what you are --
21 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- talking, the witness's comments, about, and I just
23 wanted to know what was on your mind.
24 MR. KEHOE: And also in my mind was also furnishings, electronic
25 goods. All of those things were smuggled back and forth at escalated
1 prices with this --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you included both matters on which the
3 witness has not testified in whatever way and including, also, matters on
4 which the witness testified as goods being transported.
5 MR. KEHOE: Well, first of all, Judge, the first matter on the
6 black market for money was in his statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. But, of course, you then asked whether
8 -- what he meant by that --
9 MR. KEHOE: Correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether it was goods, stolen goods or not. I --
11 of course, it came to my mind that even money can be stolen.
12 MR. KEHOE: Of course.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But that apparently was not what you were asking
15 MR. KEHOE: Well, I am asking for any type of black market
16 operations in any fashion.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
18 MR. KEHOE: Now, in addition to this, this is a UNCIVPOL report
19 talking about a smuggling pipeline, and Your Honour, you have been a
20 lawyer, as well as I do, long enough that smuggling has a certain
21 negative connotation that indicates that it's not legal --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KEHOE: -- or it has something torrid, so that was why I was
24 -- yes, this wasn't in his statement. That's why I'd given this in a
25 UNCIVPOL report and he was from Sector South during this period of time
1 given as explored.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness said he knew about the money, the
3 black market -- the money, black market, and he said he didn't know
4 anything else.
5 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And I just wanted to know whether your questions
7 were limited or whether they had a wider range, and they apparently have
8 a wide -- a broad scope, yes.
9 MR. KEHOE: They have a wider range.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KEHOE: But the -- just for clarification, Your Honour, the
12 witness's knowledge is obviously limited in this regard, and I'm going
13 move off this topic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, of course. No, it was just for my
15 understanding of what the question was specifically about. Please
17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
18 Q. Now, if I may, just several matters, and I would like to touch on
19 a couple of your statements that you had -- in your 1995 statement in
20 paragraph 8, if you can go to that, sir. That's page 4, paragraph 8.
21 A. Mm-hm.
22 Q. You noted that the soldiers seemed very ill-disciplined, and
23 there were a lot of shooting at night, and there was regiment in Knin and
24 there seemed -- they seemed to be better disciplined, but in town the
25 soldiers were often drunk.
1 Tell us a little about this regiment in Knin that was more
3 A. I don't know anything. I said -- the guys I saw at this school
4 yard, and the others were sitting in the cafes were more like they have
5 some -- what they call the Black Tigers, I think, and it was more like
6 people from that -- I don't know. It was -- they were not disciplined,
7 anyway, those who were sitting in a cafe.
8 Q. But the ones that were in the school, and I think that you
9 designated this area as -- in your chart, if I may, if we can go to your
10 chart. You put a letter around the area where that school was.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what number -- what letter was that?
13 A. Let's see now ... it's hard to remember now how ...
14 Q. We can clarify it later, Mr. Widen, but this school where these
15 soldiers were, these are the 500 soldiers you were talking about when the
16 Chamber was asking you about it, isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And this was right next to the civilian police station?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. And they came to that location after school let out, didn't they?
23 A. Yes, when the children left for summer vacation, so the soldier
24 took over the school, yes.
25 Q. And without giving us an exact date, do you recall when they came
1 to that school?
2 A. I can't say exactly, no.
3 Q. But these are the soldiers that you found to be more disciplined?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you ever learn that they were JNA -- or the Yugoslav troops
6 from Serbia
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever learn anything about where these troops came from?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What indicated to you that they were more disciplined than the
11 other troops in town?
12 A. Let's say they have different uniforms, and it seems that they
13 have some people in charge, and -- just the feeling I have.
14 Q. Now, you noted in your testimony at -- this is page 31 at line 4
15 that they were called the Black Tigers. Is that right?
16 A. I think it was the Black Tigers, yes.
17 Q. And do you recall what their uniform looked like?
18 A. No.
19 Q. When you say "Black Tigers," are you referring to Arkan's Tigers?
20 A. I think -- because -- I think Arkans have a camp outside
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, you're on your feet, but I don't hear
23 you, so I do not know how to interpret the situation.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: I was just waiting for a moment. I'm sorry to
25 interrupt. I just was wondering if the question was suggesting that the
1 Black Tigers were the same unit that the witness was referring to as the
2 500 stationed at the school, and that's not how I interpreted his earlier
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but as I earlier said, a debate on the
5 interpretation of the statement of the witness is not -- if there is any
6 misrepresentation of the statement of the witness, then perhaps without
7 explaining in the presence of the witness what you are talking about,
8 refer, perhaps, the Chamber to any matter where you say this misrepresent
9 because it's inconsistent with what we find we find on page so-and-so,
10 line so-and-so.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I apologise. I do think it might be
12 a misrepresentation, maybe unintentional or maybe it's my
13 misunderstanding. It thought that --
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you would --
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: Page 32, line 13 and 14, was a question referring
16 back -- I think there's a mistake, I think it's page 31, that this unit
17 was called the Black Tigers. If you go back to page 31, line 4, I
18 believe the Black Tigers was not referring to this regiment at the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, and again, if you want to
21 explain clearly why it is it misrepresented, do it in such a way that the
22 witness is not put on notice on what you consider is the right
23 representation, but just draw the attention of the Chamber to pages,
24 paragraphs, or lines, and then we'll read them and then we'll see whether
25 there's any ground for the objection.
1 Page 3, line 4, you're talking about the first statement, the
2 1995 statement?
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: It was all in the transcript, Your Honour.
4 MR. KEHOE: Line 31. It was page -- page 31 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah. But then if you go back to page 3, in line 4
6 -- page 3, line 4 stands for ...
7 MR. KEHOE: It should be page 31.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Page 31, line 4, of the transcript.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's page 31, line -- yes.
10 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I can easily clarify and just ask the
11 question. It may be easier.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If -- yes. If it's clearer to you than it is to me,
13 Mr. Kehoe, please, yes.
14 MR. KEHOE: I can just ask the question again and, you know, to
15 the extent there's any ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. KEHOE:
18 Q. Sir, you mentioned there were 500 soldiers, the well-disciplined
19 soldiers at the school. Were those the soldiers that you believed were
20 named the Tigers?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Those are -- there's a different group. Now, what were the
23 soldiers at the school known as, if you know?
24 A. I don't know, but they were not the Tigers because the Tigers,
25 they were working, let's say, for themselves. So these people in the
1 school yard were, I would say, normal soldiers.
2 Q. Now, the element that you described as the Tigers, where were
4 A. I don't know if those who were sitting in the cafe I said and
5 were drinking a lot, if those guys belonged to the Tigers, I don't know.
6 I don't know. But -- no, I don't know that. But the Tigers have a camp
7 outside of Benkovac, that I know.
8 MR. KEHOE: If I may, for one moment, Your Honour.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. KEHOE:
11 Q. Now, this element that -- this element of the Tigers that was
12 outside of Benkovac, was that Arkan's Tigers?
13 A. So I was told.
14 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony at page 6 at line 17, you said
15 that you saw Mladic in Knin. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And tell us about you seeing Mladic in -- General Mladic in Knin.
18 A. It was at the school yard, and he was standing in the middle of
19 his soldiers there, and I recognise him because of the special hat, and
20 we were talking about him at the HQ, so I saw him there, yes.
21 Q. And when you say the school yard, this is the same location where
22 these well-disciplined troops were?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And approximately when was this?
25 A. Didn't I write that? I think I have been writing down that I saw
1 Mladic somewhere. I think so. So that should be -- but I can't say. It
2 should be in July.
3 Q. Would it be towards the end of July, approximately, say, the 30th
4 of July?
5 A. I can't say.
6 Q. Now, during this period of time -- let me read you something,
7 again, from Mr. Elleby, and this is it at page 3474, line 9.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, I'm not exactly sure where this is going,
11 but if it's similar to the previous question that was asked where this
12 witness was read portions of someone's else's evidence on the matter, I
13 thought that there was an understanding that before that stuff was taken
14 that the witness could simply be asked about the matter, and then if it
15 was necessary for whatever reason, the other witnesses's statements or
16 evidence could be put to him.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I think that was the guidance. Of
18 course, I do not know what you're going to ask --
19 MR. KEHOE: No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- but if it was what Ms. Gustafson was --
21 MR. KEHOE: That has not -- that has not been the practice, and
22 certainly, that has not been a practice that's been followed by the
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think, as a matter of fact, that when there
25 was -- when there were objections that not first put to the witness what
1 other witnesses have testified but, rather, first ask the witness about
2 the event and then if there's any need to tell the witness that someone
3 else has testified in a similar way or in a different way; that's at
4 least the guidance for this moment if that was on your mind.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. Well, towards the end of July, a few days in July and up to the
8 end of July, did you observe more and more military vehicles and more and
9 more uniformed personnel in Knin?
10 A. Yes, I did, and, also, I saw some people I know from Benkovac,
11 milicija guy, the chief of the milicija in Benkovac at that time, and he
12 was dressed in uniform now, so some kind of mobilisation, I would say it
14 Q. And likewise, you noted in your 1995 statement P721 on
15 paragraph 8, and you can take a look at that, sir, you note in
16 paragraph 8 that during July, when you moved to Knin, there were many
17 Serb soldiers and a lot of military convoys also passed through town.
18 The next sentence says, "For the most part the soldiers sat in
19 the cafes always carrying their weapons."
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The next sentence: "I saw a number of tanks passing through Knin
22 a few days before the assault."
23 Do you know where these tanks went to a few days before the
24 assault, and I assume you're talking about Operation Storm.
25 A. I would say they were going through Knin and -- I can't say where
1 they were going, but they just passed Knin.
2 Q. Now, going down a couple of other sentences in the same
3 paragraph, you note: "On some of the Nissan pickup trucks which were
4 stolen from the UN, heavy machine-guns or rocket launchers had been
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know what type of rocket launchers these were?
8 A. No, but I can see a different machine-gun, and when you have
9 these like missiles, missiles --
10 Q. Missiles, yes.
11 A. Missiles. A small one of those, I would say it was.
12 Q. And they were on the back of trucks?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you observe them driving around?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know where they were going?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And how many of these trucks with -- with rocket launchers on the
19 back did you see?
20 A. Two or three.
21 Q. And how about trucks with heavy machine-guns?
22 A. I would say all the trucks that had been stolen from UN have --
23 have a machine gun on the back, yes.
24 Q. And how many approximately are we talking about?
25 A. I got lost around seven in Benkovac, so I can't just answer for
2 Q. To your knowledge, were UN vehicles in other areas of
3 Sector South taken from UNCIVPOL?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did they likewise have either machine-guns or rocket
6 launchers on the back?
7 A. I can't say. I saw it in Benkovac, and I saw it in Knin, but --
8 I went, also, to Obrovac, but, no, I can't remember if I saw any there.
9 Q. Do you recall the fall of Grahovo when the HV defeated the ARSK
10 and Bosanski Grahovo fell in late July of 1995?
11 A. Can you take that again?
12 Q. Are you familiar with the city of -- or the town of
13 Bosanski Grahovo?
14 A. No.
15 Q. It is up north, I guess, north-east of Knin and had been taken by
16 the HV on approximately 28 July 1995
17 A. No.
18 Q. Well, would you agree, sir, that towards the latter part of July
19 in Knin people started to get very upset about HV victories against the
20 ARSK. Do you recall that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, let us talk a little bit about people leaving Knin, and I
23 know you talked a little bit about that with the Prosecution.
24 If I could -- if I may, ask you to take a look at -- well, sir,
25 prior to -- the night prior to Operation Storm, did you know anything
1 about people leaving Knin in an organised fashion?
2 A. I can't say what happened during -- it started there at 5.00 in
3 the morning, and I was inside my house all the time until I went to this
4 guy Boris so ...
5 Q. I'm talking about the night prior to that, prior to Operation
7 A. Oh, yeah. Mm-hm.
8 Q. Do you know of the Serbs leaving in an organised fashion?
9 A. Organised, I don't know, but some were leaving, yes.
10 Q. Let me read you -- if I could bring Exhibit 514, page 2. This is
11 an interview given by then-Major Claude Bellerose of -- he's a Canadian
12 major stationed in UN Sector South, and if I could go to -- excuse me,
13 did I say -- D514. I apologise. D514. Now if we could go to the second
14 page, the left-hand column towards the top.
15 On the third line down, the question going to Major Bellerose:
16 "When did the bombardment of the city itself begin?"
17 Mr. Bellerose notes: "I believe it was 5.00 in the morning on the
18 4th of August."
19 Question: "Then they began to shell Knin immediately?"
21 "But -- okay. But then the flood of refugees continued into
22 Knin, correct?"
23 "Well, on the refugee side a lot of people from Knin fled that --
24 that night just before the bombardment, just like someone had given them
25 a heads up and they fled. It was apparently well organised."
1 Are you familiar with that, sir, of people leaving?
2 A. No, no. I mean, perhaps he was on the streets so he can see it,
3 but I was inside, so I can't answer that question.
4 Q. Now, in your 1995 statement, and I just want to take us forward,
5 you noted in paragraph 3 -- this is on the second page of paragraph 3:
6 "During Friday night, I could hear the noise of many vehicles. The
7 neighbour on the block above left his car. There were three occupants in
8 it as well as loads of luggage, so I gathered they were fleeing."
9 You clarified, oh, you said something further, that you're -- in
10 P722 at paragraph 50, and that's your 19 -- or excuse me, 2008 statement,
11 where you clarify that, and you noted: "As far as I could tell, most
12 civilians, around 80 per cent, left during Friday night and during the
13 day on Saturday."
14 Now, did you observe that, sir, or did you just hear it?
15 A. I just hear it.
16 Q. Now, the heaviest shelling was in fact in the early morning hours
17 of the 4th, is it not?
18 A. Yes, and also the same in the morning of the 5th.
19 Q. And you heard these individuals leaving on the -- beginning on
20 the evening of the 4th, the Friday night?
21 A. The shelling started at 5.00 on the 4th, and this evening there
22 were -- I heard the noise about people leaving, yes.
23 Q. Okay. Let me show you D137, if I may.
24 MR. KEHOE: If I could just cover this one document before the
25 break, Your Honour. I think we're almost at that time.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Widen, this is an order by President Milan Martic of the
2 Republic of Serb Krajina from 4 August 1995 at 16.45 hours, 4.45 in the
3 afternoon, ordering the evacuation of the municipalities of Benkovac,
4 Obrovac, Knin, Drnis, and Gracac. Now, this is in the afternoon of the
5 4th, and this before you heard people evacuating, isn't it?
6 A. It was later on the 4th, yes.
7 Q. When you were discussing these matters with the Prosecution and
8 you came to your opinion where you were made aware of the fact that an
9 evacuation order had been issued by the president of the Republic of Serb
10 Krajina --
11 A. No.
12 Q. -- in the afternoon of the 4th of August, 1995?
13 A. I haven't seen this before, no.
14 Q. So you know nothing about this?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Widen.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this is the usual time for a break.
18 Could we get any indication as far as timing is concerned, Mr.
20 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I should move through this in an hour, I
21 think. I really -- a lot of -- if I may, Judge, just by clarification a
22 lot of -- if the witness says "I don't know" about something, that
23 certainly will cut things down.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I do understand that that would
25 shorten the cross-examination.
1 Mr. Kay.
2 MR. KAY: I have no questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, zero to half an hour, depending on
5 what happens.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Then we'll have a break, and we'll resume at quarter past 4.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe. Please proceed.
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Widen, I'd like to direct your attention to the portion of
13 your statements that talks about the actual shelling of Knin, and if we
14 could turn our attention back to your 1995 statement, P721, at paragraph
15 6. I believe it's in the just prior pages, at the bottom of 6.
16 And you note that -- at paragraph 6: "My assessment after having
17 walked around Knin is that most shells had landed in the residential
18 areas. As far as could I see, no public buildings had been hit."
19 And you gave us -- and by the way, Mr. Widen, how many times did
20 you actually travel around the city of Knin after Operation Storm to make
21 these observations?
22 A. Five or six times.
23 Q. And I think you also noted that you didn't go to the eastern part
24 of town. Is that right?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. But let us just look at the -- you gave us a map that is before
2 you that has the areas that have been designated as being hit by
3 shellfire, and I took the liberty of putting them on a different map.
4 MR. KEHOE: And if I can bring up 1D43-0001.
5 Q. Now, sir, these are the areas, all of the areas that you circled
6 in your map that was introduced by the Prosecution.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, if you would not mind that I intervene
8 for a second. I'm quite happy that you provide us with this map. I hope
9 that the Prosecution agrees with the way in which you've translated the
10 data on the other map because, Ms. Gustafson, if have you maps which in
11 print appear to be purple, red is, I must admit, together with blue the
12 worst colour you could use to do the markings. It's almost impossible
13 for us to verify exactly where the markings are, so -- and this is not
14 the first time that we find those red markings on maps of the same
15 colour. So if for the future the Prosecution would keep in mind that any
16 new map being marked, either the basic colour of the map to be different
17 or the markings to be in a different, while contrasting, colour because I
18 have even difficulties to verify whether what you have put on your map is
19 what we have on our maps.
20 Now, I take it, and I would be very happy if you could you
21 confirm the accuracy of what Mr. Kehoe presented to us.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I'm seeing it for the first time now
23 on the screen.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps take your time, and apparently --
25 you must be in a position to confirm it because you present the map, so
1 apparently you are able to see where the circles are, and I verified with
2 the other judges. We apparently all three are of an age that it becomes
3 too difficult to -- to look at this, and I apologise for my colleague to
4 the left.
5 MR. KEHOE: Judge, you don't have to apologise. I'm that age
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I do not apologise -- Mr. Kehoe.
8 MR. KEHOE: I understand. I understand.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, and we expect a confirmation by the
10 Prosecution and, again, it's an appreciated that you give it to us now in
11 a more legible form.
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. Mr. Widen, do you understand what I tried to do? I tried to
14 transpose it on a map. Okay. If we could go to the next map.
15 These locations I have designated are the areas in your witness
16 statement where you have stated to the Prosecution that you observed
17 shell damage, and I have taken out areas that -- where you didn't say
18 there was any shell damage such as in the cemetery, which is L, and other
19 areas where there -- you did not discuss the shell damage. Okay, sir,
20 are you with me?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Okay. And the area of red will become significant for you in a
23 moment. I do want to say to you, by way of clarification, in your
24 designation of where you lived in your 1995 statement, you noted that you
25 lived on L. Marunda 32 in Knin. Do you recall that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I will tell you, I submit to you that that is the designation
3 that I have as listed there as the house of Nada Stabac as well as the
4 house of Boris Kupovic which is very nearby?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If we can go to the next slide. Sir, I'm not going to go through
7 these seriatim but I just ask you to you take a look at these. Just take
8 a moment. I realize this is not something that you've seen before, but
9 these are the locations, and I have interposed government and military
10 infrastructure items over it that have previously been received in
11 evidence. And as can you see from the various numbers, the As are ARSK
12 troops bases and barracks; the B numbers are command and control and
13 power; C numbers are anti-aircraft units; the D numbers are military
14 industry and depots; and the E numbers are transportation infrastructure.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Just take a moment and just take a look at them and try to
17 familiarize yourself with it.
18 Now, looking at this, sir, is it your testimony that looking at
19 all of these various and -- that no public buildings were hit during the
20 shelling of Knin on the 4th and 5th? Is that your testimony?
21 A. I said as long as I know, I saw no hit to public buildings.
22 Q. Well, let us turn to the -- and let me just look at the slides
23 here, which is B1, which is the ARSK main headquarters; B2, which is the
24 ARSK -- it's part of the Defence ministry; B3, ARSK office accommodation,
25 and even before this, another item, which is a commander-in-chief
2 If we can go to the next -- oh, that's good. I can see that
3 better. If we can go to the next slide.
4 Sir, this is a blow-up of your area of your residence you
5 designated in the map as A. I have put the address of L. Marunda 32 at
6 its proper location to the right of A as well as Boris' house, which is
7 also to the right of A. Now, you're familiar with this location, are you
8 not, sir?
9 A. Yes, I am.
10 Q. Are you familiar with the area there that's B1, which is the
11 headquarters of the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina?
12 A. I think it was that building during the night I could hear a
13 diesel motor going. I don't know, but I -- from my place I could hear
14 diesel going through the night for --
15 Q. Now, this building, I mean, obviously it's approximately less
16 than -- at least part of that facility is less than 50 metres from your
17 residence. In the morning of the 5th, did you hear shells being --
18 hitting the RSK headquarters?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You did not?
21 A. No. Let me tell you that -- the shelling, I was keeping my head
22 down, so I couldn't see, let's say, where -- that I heard from later on
23 when you hear these shelling coming, it's a sound, and when you hear it,
24 you can sit there, but if you don't hear it, you should go down because
25 then the shelling will coming for you.
1 Q. Let me -- given your location and you were at -- in your
2 residence on the 4th when the shelling took place; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you were in your residence the entire day of the 4th. Is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And is it your testimony that you were unaware of B1, the ARSK
8 headquarters, being hit?
9 A. Have I said that I saw that this was hit?
10 Q. No, I'm asking you, sir, were you aware that it was either
11 through sound or hearing or in some other fashion?
12 A. No. No.
13 MR. KEHOE: If I might have just one moment, Your Honour.
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 MR. KEHOE:
16 Q. Now, you noted -- I'm sorry. You noted during the correspondence
17 of your testimony or just now, be that as it may, that you heard a diesel
18 engine running. Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what did you think that that was supplying power to? Did you
21 have any idea?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I mean, was it trucks or was it equipment --
24 A. No, no, no trucks. It could be for electricity, I would -- I
25 don't know.
1 Q. Were you aware, sir, that during this period of time the -- if we
2 look just a little further north that the railway facility, for instance,
3 around E 8 was hit by -- by -- during the artillery attack?
4 A. I couldn't see anything there.
5 Q. Well, did you hear it?
6 A. Yes, but if you hear and you're sitting inside here, for example,
7 and you hear the shelling outside you can't see where it goes.
8 Q. How about these other RSK facilities which were approximately 150
9 to 200 metres from you, and I'm talking about B2 and B3 over to the left?
10 Did you hear -- hear, now, did you hear those buildings being hit by
11 artillery fire?
12 A. No. I can't say I hear any building got hit. I thought later
13 on, but it's impossible to sit inside and say, Oh, he hit -- they hit
14 this house or something. I can't say that.
15 Q. So, sir, let me understand you well. When you said in your
16 statement that -- and I go back to your statement, P721, paragraph 6, you
17 say as far as you could see no public buildings were hit. You're just
18 saying you didn't see them being hit. You're not saying that they
19 weren't hit?
20 A. What I'm writing there is what happened later on when I went
21 outside and walking around. So this is not from the 4th or the 5th. It
22 must be later on when I was outside.
23 Q. Well, let me show you -- okay. Let me show you, just before we
24 get to that, D389.
25 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time I would tender 1D43 0001.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, but first, Ms. Gustafson.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: If the Prosecution could just have a day or two
3 to review the locations and verify the accuracy compared to the witness's
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, way of two might be a bit -- you
6 presented very unclear maps. Therefore, I think -- and since the witness
7 will leave us today most likely ...
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I can review it in the break, Your Honour, and
9 get back to you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you, please, will do that, and then we'll
11 see how far you come.
12 MR. KEHOE: Okay.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar, that would be?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number
15 D718 marked for identification.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now just for my information, Mr. Kehoe,
17 that's the blown-up version or the --
18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. It's the --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just the blown-up version.
20 MR. KEHOE: Just the blown-up version. That's right.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The other one being an introduction rather than ...
22 MR. KEHOE: That's right, sir. I just tried to put it in
23 perspective and then blow it up.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. -- let me just see. D719, we'll take a
25 decision on that once we have heard from the Prosecution after the break.
1 Of course, you are missing the agenda, but we have this agenda on other
2 maps that are -- other photographs which are already in evidence.
3 MR. KEHOE: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it that the numbering is fully consistent
5 with what we have seen earlier.
6 MR. KEHOE: It is consistent with the addition -- I will tell
7 you, I put in the addition of the items that the witness put in, which is
8 the school, which had the soldiers in it, which had not been designated
9 the prior to that time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.
11 MR. KEHOE: And that would be, Judge --
12 JUDGE ORIE: And the school would be, anyhow, on the
13 Prosecution's map.
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. KEHOE: It's on the Prosecution map.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the locations where people were living, I
18 think, as a matter of fact do not appear, the -- Boris' house, and these
19 are new, as well, isn't it?
20 MR. KEHOE: That's correct, Judge. Those two we put on with
21 using the witness's address and, also, with Boris's address. We made
22 that more accurate than the rather global A point that the witness put
23 in, which he did some 13 years --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you take the witness back for one
25 second to these houses so as to ask him to identify whether they're
1 located -- his own apartment being in the centre of the circles.
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. If we can --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think that is what he already testified, but let's
4 just make that for once and forever sure, perhaps the blown-up version.
5 MR. KEHOE: The blown-up version, Judge. This is the blown-up
6 version, Your Honour, the green give -- taken from the witness's address,
7 which he puts on page 1 of his statement in 1995, P721. He addresses L.
8 Marunda 32 in Knin, and the -- checking the address logs, that's in fact
9 the address, and the individual he identified as Boris is living in the
10 -- the green square just to the left.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's at least what we now have to ask the
13 Could you confirm that the small green feature just in the middle
14 of the concentric circles, is that the apartment building in which you
16 THE WITNESS: It seems so, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the green rectangular feature just left
18 of that on the radius, 50 metres line, is that --
19 THE WITNESS: That's the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- the building where the person you called Boris
21 was living.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have identified that. I think that would
24 for the moment do.
25 MR. KEHOE: May I just clarify on the record, Judge. This is a
1 4-page document. If we can go to prior page, certainly, we're putting
2 all four pages in.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No further questions were put to the witness
4 in respect of these apart from whether this was the -- and that's for the
5 Prosecution to verify whether the markings are the same as on the
6 original marked aerial photograph.
7 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You said four pages?
9 MR. KEHOE: Yeah. The other two pages were, again -- if we could
10 go to page 1 and page 2 just to put Your Honour --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's the whole with the agenda?
12 MR. KEHOE: Correct, Your Honour. It wasn't really an agenda.
13 It was just this -- these are the items, and the next page are the ones
14 -- we took out the ones that were non-shelling-related per Mr. Widen's
15 testimony, if we can go to the next line, because he does discuss things
16 that are not shelling-related which aren't pertinent.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the first three, of course, it's important
18 that he -- that the Prosecution verifies whether the markings which have
19 been reproduced on this map in a slightly different way, whether these
20 are the same markings as we find on the map marked by the witness, and
21 now, therefore, it's not only the blown-up version but all four pages.
22 MR. KEHOE: All four, Your Honour, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We will, then, decide on that. Mr. Registrar, D719
24 would then be all four pages.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it's actually 718, D718, four
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. We were talking about D389. If we
5 could bring that back on the screen.
6 Q. Mr. Widen, this is an ARSK intelligence report from the morning
7 of the 4th of August, 1995
8 to the centre of this page. It says: "Knin was attacked ..."
9 If you could focus your attention on that.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And it notes that this is coming from the ARSK themselves, that
12 Knin was attacked from Livanjsko Polje from several directions by the
13 time this information was drafted, between 200 and 300 rounds of
14 different calibres impacted on the town. "The first strike was carried
15 out on the building SVK General Staff."
16 Now, sir, that's the building that is -- begins approximately 40
17 metres from your residence, which suffered great material damage with a
18 fleet of vehicles almost completely destroyed. Did you see the parking
19 lot at any point behind the ARSK headquarters with the vehicles destroyed
20 in that parking lot that was very near your home?
21 A. No, I didn't because it's close to my home, but you have a lot of
22 trees, so you can't look into it from my place. It was a lot of trees
24 Q. Later, the -- it continues on: "Later, the fire was transferred
25 on military barracks 1300 Kapalara." Are you familiar with shells
1 landing either on the barracks that were in town or the barracks that
2 were outside of town, the northern barracks?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The next is the Tvik factory. Do you know where the Tvik factory
5 is in town, sir?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You don't know where that is?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you see during this time big plumes of black smoke coming out
10 of a factory in the centre of town?
11 A. I didn't think about that, no.
12 Q. And obviously, you know, we talked about the railway
13 intersection, that you didn't see any shelling at the railway
14 intersection. Is that right?
15 A. Let's say from my -- when you're driving a car or walking, you
16 can't see -- I mean, it is a big area, and if it was an impact there, I
17 can't say. But I didn't see it.
18 Q. So, again, if we can clarify it, you're not saying it didn't
19 happen; you just didn't go inside those facilities to see if they had in
20 fact been shelled?
21 A. Let's say we were not allowed to go wherever we want to go at
22 that time.
23 Q. Let me show you another item, which is a -- P214, which is a
24 statement by Mr. Elleby. Now, did you talk to Mr. Elleby, you know,
25 during this entire time when you were working together at CIVPOL?
1 A. I met him, let's say, two years later in Copenhagen.
2 Q. When you were still back at Sector South, at the headquarters in
3 Sector South when you folks were all together, did you discuss matters
4 with Mr. Elleby and the other CIVPOL members?
5 A. Of course we did, but I can't remember some special thing, no.
6 Q. Well, let me go -- this is a -- Mr. Elleby's statement on 17
7 September 1995.
8 MR. KEHOE: If we can go to the next page, and the second
9 paragraph, if we can just blow that up second paragraph a bit.
10 It notes: "After 8 August 1995, he" - being Mr. Elleby -
11 "noticed the most destruction had occurred in the areas around the Serb
12 military barracks and the government buildings. Some areas in Knin
13 seemed being nearly unharmed by the shelling. F," - I think, for example
14 - "the area near the Knin hospital was nearly unharmed."
15 Did you have discussions with Mr. Elleby where he shared these
16 types of observations with you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, the Prosecution during the course of their -- the briefing
19 of you showed you P228, which is a UN assessment.
20 MR. KEHOE: If we can bring that on the screen.
21 Q. By the way, Mr. Widen, do you have any reason to question the
22 conclusions by Mr. Elleby?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, if we turn our attention to this document, this is a
25 document that you said -- that you had -- you told the Prosecution that
1 you had not seen until they showed it to you. Is that right?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. And in the second paragraph -- by the way, are you
4 familiar with the individual who wrote this?
5 A. I know Thor Hansen. I know him.
6 Q. Well, this one is Steinar Hagvag.
7 A. He is also a Norwegian.
8 Q. Okay. And he notes in the second paragraph: "We cover the whole
9 township, observed several impacts of shells and rockets around the Tvik
10 factory, the military headquarters, the general direction of the northern
11 barracks, shells coming from north-east and government house, the Knin
12 radio/TV building, and the hillside below Knin."
13 Now, did you notice shelling damage on any of these locations as
14 Mr. Hagvag writes here?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever discuss this with him?
17 A. No. Let's say I was not that many days in, and I was looking
18 into my own area and saw some houses who blown up there, and this is --
19 perhaps they have order from higher up to make this observation, but not
20 for me.
21 Q. Now --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson.
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I just wanted to point
24 out that the question was, Did you note shelling on any of these
25 locations that Mr. Hagvag writes here.
1 The report says --
2 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me. This is cross-examination. I'm asking
3 him about these locations.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, the report says that Mr. Hagvag observed
5 several impacts of shells around the certain locations, and I'm -- just
6 think that's not precisely the same.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Locations have, then, to be understood as areas
8 around the specifically mentioned objects, that is the Tvik factory,
9 milicija headquarters, and it goes even without saying if we're talking
10 about the general direction of north barracks, that already refers to
11 general directions.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. KEHOE:
14 Q. Well, did you see shelling around these particular locations?
15 A. No. I can't remember that.
16 Q. So when you told that the Prosecution, "I have never seen this
17 report before, and I" -- this is in paragraph 27 of P722: "I have never
18 seen this report before, and I did not participate in this assessment. I
19 cannot recall anyone mentioning this assessment or its findings.
20 In reviewing the assessment, I note that there is no mention of impacts
21 directly on any of the facilities referenced but only observations of
22 shell impacts around these areas, which is consistent with my
24 Now, I just asked you whether or not if you heard or you observed
25 shelling around those locations and you said no. So is what the
1 Prosecute -- what was it written in this statement incorrect?
2 A. I'm not following you right now. I'm --
3 Q. Well, the Prosecution typed -- wrote this, didn't they?
4 A. If you say so.
5 Q. No, I'm asking you, sir.
6 A. What is --
7 Q. It's your statement. It's your statement in 2008.
8 A. Yeah, yeah. That I have here.
9 Q. And your testimony before this Chamber is that you did not
10 observe any shelling around the Tvik factory, the military headquarters,
11 the northern barracks, the government house, the Knin radio or TV
12 station. Is that right?
13 A. Yes, that's right. What I did was to mark on this map those
14 places where I saw shelling.
15 Q. And you did not observe -- excuse me. So when you told the
16 Prosecution, sir, that that -- in paragraph 27 that this report is
17 consistent with your observations, it's really not consistent with your
18 observations, is it, because you said that you didn't see shelling around
19 the Tvik factory, the military headquarters, the northern barracks,
20 government house, the Knin radio station; isn't that right?
21 A. I will say -- I can't say that I saw any shelling there, and that
22 is it because I brought -- perhaps not visit these areas.
23 Q. And that's because, as you noted in your paragraph 38 of 722, if
24 you look at paragraph 38: "I never patrolled or visited east side of
25 Knin, including south-east to north-east." Isn't that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, you mentioned that Mr. Hjertnes was a Norwegian, and I think
3 you also mentioned Steinar. I mean, you knew Mr. Steinar Hjertnes, did
4 you not, who was the Senior Military Observer?
5 A. I can't remember the name now, but Steinar, he was not in Knin
6 when the Storm started.
7 Q. But you know that he was the senior UNMO?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Let me show you P64. Have you ever seen this document before?
10 This is a provisional assessment that was dated 18 August 1995 and signed
11 by the Senior Military Observer, Sector South, Mr. Hjertnes.
12 A. No, I haven't seen this.
13 Q. In paragraph 2, it notes that in general, shelling was
14 concentrated against military objectives. The damage caused by shelling
15 to civilian establishments is concentrated to the close vicinity of
16 military objectives. Only a few, three or five impacts is observed in
17 other urban areas."
18 When you were in the Sector South headquarters, Mr. Widen, did
19 you discuss -- or was these conclusions discussed in and among the
20 various personnel in UN Sector South?
21 A. No, not what I can remember.
22 Q. Now, the -- you yourself never did a formal shelling assessment,
23 did you?
24 A. What?
25 Q. You never were assigned to go out and do a formal shelling
2 A. No, no. No.
3 Q. You never wrote a report on it, et cetera?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Now, let me -- I'm sorry, I'm just -- I might take a break there.
6 I'm just waiting for the translation to catch up, so ...
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. So just bear with me a second.
9 Now, you mentioned several items in your statement, and talking
10 specifically about -- in paragraph 24, you noted that the -- this is of
11 your 2008 statement, 722, P722.
12 In the last sentence, you said you would like to clarify that
13 "the stolen UN pick-up trucks I saw with heavy machine-guns or rocket
14 launchers were not located at the school but were just driving around
16 Now, turning your attention back to your 1995 statement, and I
17 will try to piece these items together, and we're talking about 721, and
18 we're talking about page 8 of your -- excuse me. It should be
19 paragraph 8, I believe. Paragraph 8. That would be page 4.
20 You noted in -- towards the bottom of that page, and can you see
21 that sentence beginning: "During that assault in the Knin ..."? That's
22 in the bottom section of that paragraph. Do you see that, sir?
23 A. What do you mean? How --
24 Q. The sentence says, "During the assault on Knin, I heard noises
25 indicative of ..." Do you see that sentence?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It says, "During the assault on Knin, I heard noises indicative
3 of missiles being launched and suggestion that there may have been some
4 attempt to defend Knin."
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. And you wrote this in December of 1995?
7 A. So then it must be true.
8 Q. Okay. And what you believed at the time was that the missiles
9 that you heard were outgoing missiles being fired by the Serbs. Isn't
10 that right?
11 A. That was I was thinking here when I wrote this, but I'm not an
12 expert on this, so I can't ...
13 Q. I understand, sir, that you're an expert, but when you were
14 sitting in your house on the 4th of August and you heard outgoing
15 missiles, you concluded that the outgoing missiles were coming from the
16 Serbs, didn't you?
17 A. That -- I can't remember it now, but when I read it I can see it,
19 Q. Yeah, so that was your conclusion?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Now, sir, let me -- by the way, sir, in addition to -- and this
22 outgoing fire by the Serbs, you heard that on the 4th of August?
23 A. If it's written here, I did, but I can't remember that now.
24 Q. Could the diesel engine that you have -- that you heard, could it
25 have been operating a mobile rocket launcher?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Do you know that the -- if the rocket launchers you observed were
3 the missiles that you heard being fired out?
4 A. I can't say that, either, because what I saw was on the trucks,
5 and I think they were ready to fire from the trucks. I think so.
6 Q. Well -- and they were travelling around.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. So you don't know exactly where they fired from?
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. After the Serbs withdrew on the 4th, do you know of the Serbs
11 firing back into the Croats -- back into Knin on the Croats? Do you know
12 anything about that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know about any fire coming from Serb-held area onto --
15 excuse me, on Serb-held area onto the HV on the 5th?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Well, the shelling damage that you observed -- let me withdrew
18 that for a second. If in fact the Serbs were firing at various locations
19 on the 4th as you concluded from your statement, and if there was firing
20 by the Serbs on the Croats into Knin on the 5th, the damage you observed,
21 you don't know who fired the weaponry that caused that damage, do you?
22 A. Of course, I can't say that because I was sitting, hiding myself.
23 Q. I understand, sir. I'd be there too. Believe me, I don't think
24 there's a person in this room who wouldn't be with you.
25 Now, if we can go back, if we can, to D718, and if I can go to
1 the fourth slide on D718. Now, sir, by the time the 5th of August rolled
2 around, you were at Boris' house, were you not?
3 A. I came there around 1800.
4 Q. On what --
5 A. On -- the afternoon, yes.
6 Q. Yes. And when you heard this kicking in of doors and going into
7 various locations with shooting, was that on the 4th or the 5th? That
8 was on the 5th?
9 A. That was on the 5th around 1500.
10 Q. And where were you? You were in Boris's?
11 A. No, I was in my apartment.
12 Q. Now, when you were in your apartment and you heard this, this is
13 -- and taking this location, that would put you approximately 40 metres
14 away from the ARSK headquarters, wouldn't it?
15 A. Yeah, if you say so.
16 Q. So were these soldiers -- and I guess several hundred metres from
17 other military facilities such as B2 and B3. Now, when the soldiers that
18 you heard going into rooms and when you heard small-arms fire after they
19 went in there, were they going into military facilities to clear military
21 A. I would say no because just to the right from my apartment down,
22 it was normal apartments, I mean people living there, and it was -- I
23 located the sound from this kicking doors and so on from that building.
24 And as far as I know, it was no military because I have seen people there
25 before, I mean, civilian people.
1 Q. So the -- the kicking in doors and the small-arms fire was in one
2 building in that area. Is that right?
3 A. It was a long building. I don't know how many apartments, but it
4 was that building that I could hear, yes.
5 Q. Well, what happened or what did you hear when the HV went into
6 the ARSK military facility in B1, their headquarters? What did you hear?
7 A. I can't say anything about that because I can't sit in my
8 apartment and see down to -- if you say the military, I didn't know it
9 was the military house there. I didn't.
10 Q. And that -- your answer would, likewise, be the same in the
11 facilities that we have designated as B8 or B2 or B3; is that right? You
12 didn't hear anything when the HV went into those military facilities?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, on that same score, sir, as -- obviously you're not a
15 military man, but you would expect an army going into particular areas to
16 clear locations, wouldn't you?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. And that's a normal practice in the military. Certainly, you
19 were seconded to the military for a period of time. Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the apartment buildings that you were -- that were being
22 cleared, do you know whether or not there were any ARSK personnel living
23 in those apartments?
24 A. No, I can't say that now.
25 MR. KEHOE: If I might have a moment, Your Honour.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Just to clarify, sir, when you say you can't say that, you don't
4 if ARSK personnel were in those buildings, do you?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Now, let me cover a couple of topics, sir, concerning the looting
7 that you talked about on direct. And -- by the way, I mean, on the
8 trucks that you told us that were going out with items in there, do you
9 know how much of the stuff that was taken out there had been taken out of
10 the military facilities like the Senjak barracks?
11 A. If I say -- I don't know what kind of furniture they have in the
12 barracks, but I can't imagine that they have chairs like this and -- I
13 mean, not this, but, I mean, normal chairs where have you in your home.
14 No. This was about the looting. I'm 100-percent sure.
15 Q. And, sir, I'm not questioning that you saw looting. I'm not
16 questioning that at all. I'm not questioning that you saw them driving
17 items out. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that with some of the
18 items that -- there were military facilities in Knin. You can't say from
19 some of those items whether or not any of those items came from military
20 facilities, can you?
21 A. No, I can't.
22 Q. Okay. And when it came to that, that -- your observations that
23 soldiers being drunk in town and acting, in your belief, without
24 discipline, are you aware of anything that the commanding officers and
25 the HV did to attempt to bring order and control over those soldiers?
1 A. No, I don't think so.
2 Q. Now, when you walked out with -- and you were walking around with
3 Norm Boucher. Is that right?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. And you noted in your statement at -- and your statement, I'm
6 talking about the 722, your 1998 statement at paragraph 29, that as of
7 the morning of the 6th, the police station in Knin that you visited was
8 up and running. Is that right?
9 A. Yeah, we saw policemen there, yeah.
10 Q. And this was -- and you saw -- you went to the police station
11 after you had come through the checkpoint where the soldiers, the
12 military police, and the civilian police were located?
13 A. Yeah, we went there -- from there, we went first to Norman
14 house where he was -- had his accommodation, and that house was
15 completely blown up. And from there, we went to an apartment, and he
16 said he will go inside to pick up something. I think that was one of the
17 interpreters' apartment. And -- but when he came up there, it was
18 military people inside this apartment, so he couldn't do this. And then
19 we went up to the main road, and there you have the police station, the
20 former milicija station. It was now a policija station. And there, one
21 man came and said that, You are not allowed to be here, so he took us in
22 his car and took us back to the camp.
23 Q. And the person who took you back to the camp was a military
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So --
2 A. He said he was the boss of the military police.
3 Q. So at this police station on the morning of the 6th of August,
4 was both military police --
5 A. It was not in the morning. It was -- because I came down to the
6 camp, 7.00, and a couple of hours -- let's say 11.00, something -- 11,
8 Q. I know it's been a long time and these are estimates.
9 A. Yeah, yeah.
10 Q. So around -- sometime midday on the 6th of August --
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. -- there was a police headquarters that was manned both by
13 civilian police and by military police?
14 A. As far as I can see, yes.
15 Q. Were you aware that on the 6th, the Croatian military, the HV
16 turned the entire area over to the constitutional -- excuse me, the
17 constitutional authority of the Republic of Croatia
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, if I may, sir, in paragraph -- just talking about the
21 looting just a bit. The -- in paragraph 20 -- excuse me, 34 of P722,
22 this is where you said that the looting went on from approximately ten
23 days from the 6th of August to the 16th of August.
24 And I want to note for you an item that you addressed in your
25 supplemental statement to the Prosecution, which the Prosecution did not
1 ask you about, and that has to do with your statement at -- "The soldiers
2 who were looting" -- this is what you told to the Prosecution. "The
3 soldiers who were looting seemed to be acting individually. The looting
4 didn't seem to be organised."
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Do you recall that, sir?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was the statement that you gave to --
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. -- Ms. Gustafson?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, during this period of time, there was a -- you would agree
13 as a police officer, there was a time needed to get the police department
14 and the police up and running in the area. Isn't that right?
15 A. I can only say what I saw this midday, that -- the policija was
16 in that building, the old milicija building. I saw police officers there
17 in their dark blue uniform.
18 Q. Let me -- are you familiar with some of the problems that they
19 had to get up and running, the police department had to get up and
20 running in the area?
21 A. I would say it was just to take over because it had been a
22 policija station -- milicija station before, so just walk in and start it
24 Q. Well, let me -- if I can go --
25 MR. KEHOE: I have a statement from a protected witness, Judge.
1 If I could just go into private session briefly?
2 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
3 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 MR. KEHOE: Now, if we can just put D65 on the screen.
12 Q. Mr. Widen, this is the -- the item that you talked about on your
13 direct examination, and this is the item that was -- excuse me. This is
14 the item that was written on the day that you came to this location,
15 isn't it, signed by you?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Now, when you went into this location, you note about midway
18 down: "Because of the long time, it was impossible to see how the two men
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Now, this was written on the day of the event. Now, for the
22 first time here, sir, you said that these men were shot?
23 A. Yeah. Let's say it looks like that when we first came to the
25 Q. In the statement that you did at the time, do you include
1 anything that indicates that these people were shot, the statement that's
2 on the screen, D65?
3 A. Yeah. I don't -- can't remember if we --
4 Q. Just read it, sir.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You don't say anything about them being shot, do you?
7 A. No, I'm not -- but let's say, this is something you -- in the
8 situation like that and what I remember, it -- they didn't die a natural
10 Q. Well, sir, when you went with the Prosecution and they came to
11 see you, and the date of this is -- pardon me a second. This is S --
12 722. The 26th and the 27th of February, 2008, you discussed this
13 particular report at paragraph 55 and paragraph 56, mainly paragraph 55.
14 Now, in that particular paragraph in 2008, you don't say anything
15 about these individuals being shot, do you?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Now, let me turn your attention -- the two individuals that were
18 killed were Milan Milivojevic and Ilija Milivojevic. Do you see that up
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. The two individuals? Let me turn your attention to D6.
22 A. D6.
23 Q. I'll put that on the screen, sir. Don't worry about it. I'll
24 just put it on the screen.
25 And in that item, first page is -- 6 and 7 is the name of Milan
1 and -- 6 is Ilija and 7 is Milan
2 page up to this. I'm sorry.
3 Let's go up to D7. Excuse me, D7. Thank you.
4 Sir, D7 is the autopsy report for Ilija Milivojevic, and if you
5 can read on the -- if you just look at the summary and the cause of
6 death, and take your time with that. The medical examiner at the time
7 was uncertain as to the cause of death, and there's nothing in the
8 summary about any gunshot wound.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. And let's go to D8, which is Milan Milivojevic. That, likewise,
11 is nothing about any gunshot wounds in the autopsy, and there is no
12 certainty on the part of the medical examiner about the time of death.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you are mixing up comment and questions.
14 MR. KEHOE: I apologise, Judge. I didn't mean to.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But you did.
16 MR. KEHOE: Okay, sir.
17 Q. There is --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Comment is about the absence of something. Of
19 course we could have asked the witness, but of course, the Chamber can
20 read it, as well, so there is no need to do that. And if there would be
21 any comment, it would also be fair to say that, for example, and this
22 will not -- well, no, I will leave my further comments for the time
23 being. I might have some questions on the matter.
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
25 Q. Now, the autopsy that you just saw on both Ilija Milivojevic and
1 Milan Milivojevic where they conclude that they cannot determine a cause
2 of death, that's consistent with your written report on D65 where you
3 also noted that it was impossible to see how the two men died. Isn't
4 that right?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. So when you came in and earlier today said this was an exclusion
7 that was your assumption; that wasn't your observation, was it?
8 A. No. I said it looked like, I said.
9 Q. And when you say "look like it," that was based on your
10 observation of gunshot wounds?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. But you don't reflect that in any fashion in your report?
13 A. No, because in the -- what I'm saying to you now is the feeling I
14 have and what -- and I, also, in my report said that we couldn't -- but
15 if you ask me today, I would say they were shot.
16 Q. Well, let us take that the comment that you noted for the first
17 time that this was an execution. If this was an execution, you don't
18 know the circumstances of the execution, do you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I mean, you noted that these bodies had been around for sometime?
21 A. Yeah. It was very, very warm weather at that time, so let's say
22 it won't take many days before the body start will rotting.
23 Q. Well, you don't know if these people were shot, assuming they
24 were Serbs, if they were shot by other Serbs who were angry at them, do
1 A. I can't say that.
2 Q. And you don't know if they were shot by Croats coming back who
3 were exacting revenge, can you?
4 A. I can't say that. I --
5 Q. So it would be fair to say you don't know any of the
6 circumstances involved?
7 A. No. I just told you what I -- got in mind when I saw this.
8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Widen.
9 MR. KEHOE: If I can just have one moment, please, Your Honour.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. Again, Mr. Widen, thank you very much for your time.
13 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
15 And, Mr. Kay --
16 MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]... remains as it was, that
18 is ...
19 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be cross-examined, Mr. Widen, by
22 Mr. Kuzmanovic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
24 Q. Mr. Widen, who was your commander at UNCIVPOL? Who did you
25 report to?
1 A. In --
2 Q. In Knin.
3 A. I can't remember if it was -- Elleby, I think.
4 Q. Okay. Who did you work with when you went out on patrols in
6 A. Different people every time.
7 Q. Was there one particular -- person in particular that you went
8 out on patrol with?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I'd like you to refer to your statement, P722, paragraphs 37 and
11 38. If you have that statement in front of you, Mr. Widen, please pull
12 it out so you can follow along.
13 A. What paragraph you say?
14 Q. 37 and 38. 722 is the 2008 statement, and let me know if you've
15 found the paragraphs.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On paragraph 38, you state that you patrolled through Knin
18 anywhere from approximately 5 to 15 times after Operation Storm. Can you
19 give us a range of dates after Operation Storm, from when to when that 5
20 to 15 times occurred?
21 A. Seven days, something like that.
22 Q. And in paragraph 37, you stated that you never saw any burning
23 during your few CIVPOL patrols in Knin but you saw burnt houses on the
24 way to Benkovac, correct?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. So in Knin itself, you never saw burning?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Paragraph 39 of that same statement, sir, the sentence
4 begins: "During one of these patrols," and that's in Knin again, "a
5 colleague of mine around I saw a mass grave near the cemetery."
6 First, I'd like to ask you who the colleague was you were with?
7 A. I can't remember that now.
8 Q. Okay. Now, what gave you the conclusion that this was a mass
10 A. It was the size -- as I could see, it was 2 metre wide, about 2
11 metre deep, and around 30 metre long, and if -- what happened before, I
12 thought this must be a prepared mass grave, yes.
13 Q. Did you see any -- there were no bodies that you saw, correct?
14 A. No -- No bodies.
15 Q. No grave markers?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No caskets?
18 A. Nothing more than the diggers were still in the spot.
19 Q. Okay. So you made an assumption that this was a mass grave?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Paragraph 35, sir, you say: "When I was in Knin, I did not know
22 any of the civilian or military authorities."
23 Can you please give us a reference as to -- was this before or
24 after Operation Storm that you did not know any of the civilian or
25 military authorities?
1 A. I would say it was both when the Serbs were there or when the
2 Croats there. I didn't --
3 Q. You didn't know who they were?
4 A. No. I didn't, and let's say my work was not to -- we have
5 special guys who have the meeting with the chief of policija and so on,
6 and I was not that.
7 Q. So it's fair to state that at least before and after Operation
8 Storm your lack of familiarity of civilian or military authorities was
9 the same?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly pause between
12 questions and answers. Thank you.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry.
14 Q. Now, you had already testified, sir, that on August 4th, 5th, and
15 6th, you were basically in your apartment?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. During the first three days of Operation Storm in Knin?
18 A. From the 4th, at 5.00 when the shelling started, and then I stay
19 inside the whole day and the whole night and until I think about 1800 on
20 the -- on the 5th, it must be. On the 5th, yes.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you were not picked up by any pre-Operation Storm UN
22 patrol, correct?
23 A. That's correct. I was the only one they left outside. I don't
24 know why -- I have no idea why, but I think they forgot me.
25 Q. Was that because of poor organisation or for some other reason,
1 or do you know?
2 A. I have another lady working in UN. She was living a house up --
3 very close to my house, and her, they pick up, so they must have been
4 very close to me, and no, they didn't.
5 Q. So you were left behind?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you decided to walk to the UN barracks?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What was the -- what prompted you to do that?
10 A. I had to report that I was still alive, and before I left I asked
11 those people to write their name, so I said when I'm coming to the UN, I
12 will show the -- this report and you will tell the Croat soldiers when
13 they're coming that you are still alive when I left on the 5th -- on the
14 6th, morning. So then I start walking.
15 Q. And how long did it take to you walk from your apartment to the
16 UN barracks?
17 A. 30, 40 minutes.
18 Q. Okay. And during that entire time, expect for one spot you did
19 not see any dead bodies, correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And the dead bodies that you saw were two dead bodies, according
22 to your statement, that were on a trailer?
23 A. It was -- a tractor, and they were lying under the tractor. It
24 was an old man and an old woman and ...
25 Q. Lying underneath the tractor?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But other than those two bodies -- I presume you don't have any
3 idea how they died, Correct?
4 A. No, no. No.
5 Q. Other than those two bodies that you saw, you did not see any
6 other dead bodies in and around Knin from your walk to -- from your
7 apartment to the UN barracks, correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. My statement's correct?
10 A. That's correct, yeah.
11 Q. Mr. Kehoe had discussed with you the supplemental information
12 sheet, and he had asked you a question about that. I would ask the usher
13 to please provide, if you don't have it, Mr. Widen, your supplemental
14 information sheet.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, we've had it put into e-court but
16 it'S not yet up, so I have asked Mr. Monkhouse and the usher to provide
17 the Court with copies, and of course, it's a proofing note from the
18 Prosecution, so I did provide them with a copy as well.
19 Q. Now, this proofing note, Mr. Widen, was signed by you on
20 August 23rd, correct, of this year?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And one of the things Mr. Kehoe asked you about related to the
23 issue of looting, and before we get to the -- the proofing note, I'd like
24 you to refer, please, P721 which was your very first statement, Mr.
25 Widen, of December 14th of 1995. And if you go to the very last page of
1 that document -- actually, the very last sentence of the document. The
2 very last sentence of your first statement says: "It was my impression
3 that the looting was organised and authorised from higher up."
4 And then in your supplemental note, on page 2, in the third --
5 fourth paragraph, it's quite a substantial -- it's actually completely
6 the opposite that you state: "The soldiers who were looting seemed to be
7 acting individually. The looting didn't seem to be organised."
8 A. On that, I can say that the feeling I have that time when I was
9 there was that it was authorised from upper that you have the Knin city
10 for yourself now for, let's say, five or ten days, and after that, we
11 have to stop the looting, and this is -- many armies have done this
12 before, so this is -- I think that was some kind of payment to the
14 Q. But your supplemental statement here says: "The looting didn't
15 seem to be organised, and the soldiers who were looting seemed to be
16 acting individually." Correct?
17 A. Yes. That what I remember now, but when I read what I was
18 writing, 1995, it's more like that is the truth.
19 Q. More like which is the truth?
20 A. What I write in 1995.
21 Q. So what you're telling me is what you added in your supplemental
22 statement is not the truth?
23 A. Let's say I can't remember exactly. If I go back to my mind, I
24 can't say today what I have been written here. I mean, I can't remember
1 Q. By "written here," you mean in your very first statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. I mean, those are two substantially different versions of
4 the events, aren't they?
5 A. Yes, yes. It is.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: One moment, Your Honour. I'm almost done.
7 Q. The -- page 5, Mr. Widen, of your very first statement, P721, the
8 second-last sentence, it states: "I didn't personally witness any
9 violence." And that is in Knin, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And it -- was that throughout your whole time in Knin after
12 Operation Storm that you did not witness any -- personally witness any
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And by "violence," do you mean that that's a person against
16 another person?
17 A. Yeah. Beating up or shooting or whatever.
18 Q. Okay. I'd like to ask you -- one other area I want to talk to
19 you about, Mr. Widen. The procedure that UNCIVPOL has, for example, when
20 you run across the site of a person or persons who have died or been
21 killed, it's true, is it not, that UNCIVPOL upon coming on a scene like
22 that would report that to the Croatian police, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. You would not move the bodies?
25 A. We never touched them. We just recognised the place, and then we
1 contacted the policija, and they would come.
2 Q. Okay. So if someone would move the bodies or try to take
3 photographs or conduct their own investigation outside the Croatian
4 civilian police, that would be a violation of UNCIVPOL procedure, would
5 it not?
6 A. I was never with anybody doing that, no.
7 Q. My question, however, was: If someone did do that from UNCIVPOL
8 at any of these scenes were there was a murder, that would be a violation
9 of UNCIVPOL procedure, would it not, to move a body from -- remove a body
10 from a crime scene, potentially, correct?
11 A. You are not allowed to do that because you had to go to the
12 policija and tell them, and if we took photograph, I can't remember. But
13 the investigation have to be done by the policija.
14 Q. Now, what would you do after reporting something to the civilian
15 police? What would your next step be, if anything? Would you follow up
16 at all?
17 A. We tried to, but it was very difficult.
18 Q. Okay. Can you give me an example of what you mean by you tried
19 to but it was very difficult?
20 A. If, for example, I asked the policeman coming to the scene what
21 happened after, and he will never answer that question.
22 Q. Okay. Any other example that you can give me?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. Was it your general experience that when you called the
25 Croatian civilian police to a crime scene that they would come and
1 investigate the scene?
2 A. They were coming, but about the investigation, I can't answer
4 Q. Okay. They would come to the scene, and what happened after they
5 came to the scene you don't know anything about?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. That's all the questions I have. Thank you very much.
8 A. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
10 Ms. Gustafson, any need to put further questions to the witness?
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: About five minutes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 Re-examination by Ms. Gustafson:
14 Q. You were asked at page 61 of today's transcript by Mr. Kehoe
15 about the possibility that the Serbs may have fired back on the Croats
16 during the shelling or at some point on the 4th and 5th, and I'd just
17 like to ask you, you explain in your statement that the shelling ceased
18 at 1.00 p.m.
19 at 3.00 p.m.
20 After the shelling ceased at 1.00 p.m., did you hear any other
21 sounds that sounded to you like artillery fire?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. My second question is about the questions you were asked about
24 problems the police may have had bringing law and order to the area, the
25 police in Knin, and this was at page 68.
1 Based on what you saw on the 6th/7th of August in Knin at the
2 check-point at the policija station and around the town, did it appear to
3 you that the civilian police in Knin were having problems getting up and
4 running in the area?
5 A. No, I can't say, but as I -- on the 6th I saw two uniform police
6 officer coming carrying video and a TV.
7 Q. And what did that indicate to you?
8 A. That they have picked it up somewhere, and I saw -- I said to
10 Q. And page 5 of your 1995 statement, in the last paragraph you
11 said: "According to what I witnessed, neither the civilian police nor
12 the military police raised a finger to stop the looting of Knin."
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q. Did it appear to that you that this failure to stop the looting
15 had to do with practical problems the police were having, or was it
16 something else?
17 A. No. I don't know why they -- they let this go on, but after a
18 couple of days, I can't say how many, the law and order came back, and it
19 was okay again.
20 Q. This is the -- after the approximately 10-day period that you
21 referred to in your statement?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And my last question is about burning. You were at asked at page
24 74 and you were referred to paragraph 37 of your 2008 statement. And
25 that paragraph says: "During my few CIVPOL patrols from Knin, I never
1 saw any burning, but I saw burnt houses on the way to Benkovac."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are those patrols that you undertook in the area from Knin to the
4 outside of Knin, or are you talking about patrols in Knin in that
5 paragraph, or do you remember?
6 A. No -- sometimes we went outside Knin, and I can't remember why we
7 were at that place, but it was, as I remember, two or three houses burnt
8 down, and how that happened, I don't know.
9 Q. When you were asked about this paragraph, you agreed that you
10 didn't see any burning in Knin, but at page 3 of your 1995 statement you
11 describe the first patrol you took on the 6th, and you say: "A block of
12 flats and an office block were on fire, but I don't know whether this was
13 as a result of a shell or arson."
14 Is that correct? Do you recall seeing fire in Knin on the 6th --
15 A. Now -- now when you say it, I remember that, yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Those are my questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.
19 MR. KEHOE: Can I just ask one follow-up question, sir?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but let's -- I'm looking at the clock. Let me
21 just confer with my colleagues for a second.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are some questions from the Bench, as
24 well, we consider it wiser to take the break now for 20 minutes. Then I
25 will allow you to put one or more questions, and then the Bench will have
1 some questions.
2 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break until ten minutes past 6.
4 --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You have one more question.
9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, one more question.
10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
11 Q. Mr. Widen, just to follow up on Ms. Gustafson' question to you --
12 statement to you about in your statement, neither the civil police or
13 military police raised a finger to stop the looting. I mean, you have no
14 knowledge of the internal functioning of the military police or the
15 civilian police, do you?
16 A. You mean in Croatia
17 Q. In Croatia
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
21 Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you, one or more.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE KINIS: I would like to ask you a question regarding your
24 statement, 2008, paragraph 89. When you mentioned that you find this
25 mass -- the preparation of this mass grave, and finally you mentioned
1 whether you or your colleague reported about this, you didn't recall, but
2 that would have been the normal practice.
3 What -- could you please explain? What do you mean about --
4 A. I can't explain that. I didn't make a report on it, no.
5 JUDGE KINIS: No, no, but this last sentence, that would be --
6 would have been the normal practice.
7 A. To do so, yes.
8 JUDGE KINIS: To report?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE KINIS: Oh. And if it would -- was not reported, it was
11 something out of normal practice?
12 A. It was, and the only explanation I have is that I thought my
13 colleague would make the report. That's the only --
14 JUDGE KINIS: Okay. And you mentioned there in Location L in
15 this map provided by Prosecutor to us, to Chamber, as well, that there is
16 this location of this mass grave.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE KINIS: Yes. Was -- and as far as I understood -- or maybe
19 it is not correct; maybe you can clarify this issue. Where this mass
20 grave was prepared, inside cemetery territory or outside cemetery?
21 A. Outside.
22 JUDGE KINIS: Outside.
23 A. Yes. And if you stand in front, it was to the left of the
25 JUDGE KINIS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you, as well, Mr. Widen.
2 You told us that you saw Mr. Mladic.
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And you also told us that you recognised him by the
5 hat he was wearing.
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, was it only by the hat --
8 A. No, no.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- that you recognised him or were there any other
10 features which made you recognise him?
11 A. I recognised him from pictures, and it was him. I'm 100-percent
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the hat was in addition to --
14 A. It was -- any picture I have seen of Mr. Mladic is when he have
15 this hat on. It was a very special one.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, of course, I do not know whether such a
17 hat is specific for a man in his position, yes or no. So I do understand
18 that you recognised him by the picture, but by the hat on the pictures or
19 the face on the pictures?
20 A. The face and the hat, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The face and the hat. Thank you for that answer.
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then you said that you have seen Mr. Tudjman
24 arriving in a helicopter.
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a bit more details about what you
3 A. It was, let's say, a lot of celebration, and all of us know that
4 Mr. Tudjman will come by the helicopter, and I saw the helicopter, so I
5 didn't see Mr. Tudjman himself because that was up at the castle, and you
6 were not allowed to go up there. So I was very close to this, and I saw
7 the helicopter so it came, and they told me that Mr. Tudjman was there.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what you actually observed and heard is
9 stories about Mr. Tudjman --
10 A. Yeah, and that --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- that he would arrive in a helicopter, and you saw
12 a helicopter?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Landing --
15 A. At the castle.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- At the castle. Thank you for that answer.
17 Now, you told us about the objects that were, as you told us,
18 looted, and you talked about electronics.
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Did you intend to refer us to just electronics or
21 any electrical equipment?
22 A. What I called electronic is TV and the videos, and that what I
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No washing machines, no hair dryers, no --
25 A. No. No.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No. Then you -- quite a lot of questions were put
2 to you about individual looting and the looting not being organised or
3 giving the impression to be organised. Now, I would like not to hear
4 about your impressions, but I would like to know exactly on what facts
5 you came to the conclusions at various moments. And let me take you to
6 part of your testimony. You said you had seen trucks.
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Fully loaded.
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: With objects, one person in the front, one or two
11 others --
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- at the back. Now, is that for you, if it would
14 be a military vehicle, and I think you -- you also told us about military
15 vehicles, would that be a fact which you would be consider in favour of
16 organised looting or in favour of individual looting or looting committed
17 by individuals?
18 A. One way you must say it was organised, if you think back, because
19 those vehicles, one soldier couldn't take one vehicle and start looting
20 himself, so what I figure out that was the trucks were leaving Knin, and
21 I think they were coming back when they have unloaded the trucks and
22 taking more goods.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, just on the basis of your testimony that
24 one driver, two or three at the back, more?
25 A. I can't say, but I saw soldier in the back of the trucks, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, to the extent you remember, would there
2 have been televisions for more than the two, three, or four? Would that
3 be eight televisions or ten, or would it be limited to the number of
4 persons that accompanied the transport?
5 A. I would say it's between 50 and 100 trucks I saw leaving Knin,
6 between that during those days, but I can't say how many, but at least
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's the number of trucks.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What I would like to know is whether the number of specific
11 items, such as televisions or video, whether the number of televisions
12 would go beyond the number of persons that were on that truck.
13 A. Yes, it would. It was more TV set than it was people on board,
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm trying to understand your testimony, and
16 please correct me when I'm wrong, that, apparently, individuals without -
17 that's how I understood it - without a command structure visible being
18 present participated in the looting; to that extent, it appeared to be
19 individual activity, at the same time that in view of what you described
20 as trucks loaded fully, trucks leaving loaded, trucks coming in empty --
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- that that gave you the impression that it was not
23 just the individuals that were on those trucks.
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a correct understanding --
1 A. That's correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- of your testimony?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would that then, also, be fair to say that in some
5 respect you couldn't conclude that it was organised, whereas in other
6 aspects that that gave you the impression that there was some
7 organisation involved?
8 A. I can't say that. I just telling you what I saw, and I -- no. I
9 can't go and say, This was organised because -- I can't say that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my last question is what you saw in the
11 incident that was reported. It has been -- a post-mortem has been put to
12 you in which the conclusion was that it could not be established what the
13 cause of death had been. Again, I want to focus you on the facts. The
14 two dead bodies which you saw --
15 A. Yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- did you see any blood on these two bodies, if you
18 A. I can't say 100 percent. No, I can't.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And you told us, but that is a conclusion, that it
20 gave you the impression that they were executed. Could you give us
21 facts, what you observed which led you to that impression? I'm mainly --
22 I'm interested in facts you observed, less in the --
23 A. Yeah.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- in what impression it left with you.
25 A. The fact was that I saw the older man sitting in the chair, and
1 he was -- yeah, rotten you say, rotten, yes, and also that the man close
2 to the window, seems to me that he tried to escape through the window.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This, again, is an impression and a conclusion
4 rather than facts. Was it the position of his body? Was it anything
5 else that gave you the impression you just described?
6 A. Because of the window, the man just inside the window on the
7 floor, and the older man sitting in the chair. It -- it was a crime
8 scene for me as a police officer. What I -- if I have been there for --
9 working as a police officer, I certain have said that this we must go
10 deeper and check out because it was like a murder scene for me, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Was it that you saw two dead bodies in the same
12 house, which --
13 A. It was same room.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Same room?
15 A. Yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that it was also the position of the
17 elderly man in the chair?
18 A. Yeah.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Was there any sign which would have hinted at any
20 possibility that the person was put in that chair after he had died?
21 A. That I can't answer. He was sitting in the chair, and I was
22 surprised that he still was sitting in the chair because normal, if he
23 died, he will fell from the chair, but he did -- he was still sitting in
24 the chair.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Still sitting in the chair.
1 These were my questions.
2 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need to put further
3 questions to the witness?
4 Ms. Gustafson, no.
5 MR. KEHOE: Just one question.
6 Q. With regard to the two individuals, did you find bullet casings
7 there? Did you pick up bullet casings at all?
8 A. No, no.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
10 Then, Mr. Widen, this concludes your testimony in this court.
11 Before you leave this court, I would like to draw your attention
12 to the following: During private session, part of a statement was read
13 to you, a statement given by a protected witness. I instruct you, I
14 order that you will not reveal to anyone what you heard during private
15 session as far as this witness is concerned. That was not without reason
16 said in private session, and you're under a court order not to reveal
17 that to anyone.
18 Mr. Widen, I would like to thank you very much on behalf of the
19 Chamber and I take it also on behalf of the parties for having come to
20 The Hague
21 the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We still have some time to start with the next
1 witness. Nevertheless, there are two small items which I would like to
3 First of all, the parties should prepare that we will deal later
4 this week with the MFI
5 we find time for it; otherwise, the list will be longer than we wish it
6 to be.
7 There's another matter, that is about the week off in autumn.
8 The Chamber has received the preferences from the parties. Of course,
9 the Chamber itself also has its preferences. It is not to say that we
10 always follow our preferences; I can assure you. There was a preference
11 by the -- I think most of the Defence teams, at least the Defence teams
12 that expressed themselves, to take off the week of the 20th to the 24th
13 of October. This was certainly not the preference of the Prosecution,
14 who -- the Prosecution has drawn our attention to the fact that the 24th
15 would be a holiday, anyhow, so in holiday terms, a lost day; they would
16 take that week off. As a compromise, the Chamber is inclined but if it
17 -- any further observations will be made, we'll hear that, not to say
18 that we'll then follow those observations, but the Chamber is inclined to
19 take that week as being five full days, which would lead us to starting
20 this one-week recess period on Friday, the 17th of October, that it would
21 extend until Thursday, including Thursday, the 23rd of October, and we
22 would then to our surprise find that the 24th October is a UN holiday,
24 Since no observations were made in relation to the 17th, the
25 Chamber will wait for one more day whether to see whether this will be
1 the final order of the Chamber. Of course, the parties have an
2 opportunity to bring to the attention to the staff of the Chamber any
3 important matter in relation to this intention by the Chamber.
4 I have no further matters on my list at this very moment. There
5 are a few others but not to be dealt with at this moment.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, if I may, I'm sorry. I did not
8 tender the supplemental information sheet that I referred to in cross,
9 and I would like to do that if that's all right with the Court.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was wondering because --
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I certainly --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- apparently Mr. Kehoe alluded to the information
13 contained in it. I think you referred to the content of it, but if you
14 would you prefer to have the supplementary statement in evidence, but is
15 that, then, also a 92 ter, is that just for the matter you raised, or is
16 it another 92 ter statement?
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I would assume that it would be another 92 ter,
18 Your Honour, since it did correct other things within the previous
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any disagreement on that?
21 Ms. Gustafson.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: No objection to its admittance, Your Honour. The
23 witness wasn't brought through the 92 ter process with the supplemental
24 statement. Whether it's considered a 92 ter statement or not, I don't
25 know, but we have no objection to its admittance in any event.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, of course, the admission of a 92 ter
2 statement, usually we go through the -- I would say the series of
3 questions. Now, it appears -- if the parties would agree that the
4 statement as the witness said was put on paper but on the basis of what
5 he said and if there are no objections from either party, then --
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber will admit the statement in
8 evidence, including to the content of it.
9 Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D719.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D719 is admitted into evidence.
12 Ms. Gustafson.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I just wanted to inform the Court
14 that I'm ready to give a response to the series of maps that I thought
15 was also marked D719, but maybe I'm mistaken.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was marked for identification and,
17 Mr. Registrar, was that 719 or was it -- I think we started with D719,
18 and then you corrected that and said that it actually was D718, and
19 therefore D17 [sic] was vacated again.
20 The numbering, we'll finally -- we'll find a proper solution for
21 that. Ms. Gustafson, I take it that from there being no further
22 questions that you do not challenge the way in which the items the
23 Defence had selected was put on that map.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: No. We agree with the locations. They match
25 those on the witness's photograph attached to the witness's statement.
1 However, the second through third pages refer to locations where the
2 Defence said that the witness said there was shelling damage, and number
3 B, letter B, is on those pages, and it's not one of the locations where
4 the witness identified shelling, which I spoke with my colleague in the
5 break, and I think he agreed with that, so I was wondering if the exhibit
6 should be corrected.
7 MR. KEHOE: The exhibit itself doesn't need to be corrected but
8 just on the record, that name B is a location that he had put on there
9 that I put back on there. That was in around all the areas he was
10 talking about being shelled. But -- counsel is right, but it is the
11 exact area that he did in fact mark, so that is consistent. So if we'd
12 just driven by the 92 ter submission as to how he identified those
13 locations, that's fine.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then there seems to be no reason to recall
15 the witness for those purposes. I should have asked you. I should have
16 given you an opportunity, Ms. Gustafson, before we started.
17 We have 25 minutes left. If there are no other procedural
18 matters, I would like to ask the Prosecution when they are ready to call
19 the next witness.
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. The witness is called Mr. Sava
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I did understand and also take from your
23 remark that no protective measures are sought.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Mirkovic. Do you hear me in a
1 language you understand?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand, but I need to
3 adjust my headset for my right ear. I'm not sure if I should do it
4 myself or seek assistance.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is it better now?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's fine.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mirkovic, before you give evidence in this
8 courtroom, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a
9 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and
10 nothing but the truth.
11 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration, of which the
12 text has now been handed out to you by Mr. Usher.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic. Please be seated.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Mr. Waespi, who is
18 counsel for the Prosecution.
19 Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 WITNESS: SAVA
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Waespi:
24 Q. Good evening, Mr. Mirkovic.
25 A. Good evening to all.
1 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record.
2 A. My name is Sava Mirkovic.
3 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, do you recall giving a witness statement to
4 investigators of this Tribunal dated 9th March 2007?
5 A. I do.
6 MR. WAESPI: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter number
8 Q. Now, on the left side you see the English original of a witness
9 statement; on the right side, very soon you will see the translation into
10 your language. Is that the statement that you gave on 9th March 2007?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And yesterday, did you have a chance to review this statement in
13 my office?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I would like you to go to paragraph 7 of the English version,
16 which is on page 2 of the English version, and page 3 of your version in
17 Serbian, and it says: "I asked my mother to come with us, but she would
18 not leave the house." And that's when you and your family decided to
19 leave your village?
20 Now, was it that you asked your mother to come with you, or did
21 you use another word?
22 A. I told my mother to come with us. It was almost an order. It
23 was uttered in an imperative tone, but she refused to leave our home, and
24 the same thing happened three times in a row. She would leave the house
25 momentarily, but then they eventually refused to come with us.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic. Now, with this correction, is this
2 witness statement of the 9th March 2007 true and accurate to the best of
3 your knowledge?
4 A. You mean what those people told me, their testimonies to me, or
5 do you mean the evidence that I gave in my statement?
6 Q. The latter, the evidence you gave to -- to investigators. Is
7 that true and accurate to the best of your knowledge?
8 A. Yes, it is. I'm certain that it is.
9 Q. And also, does this statement accurately reflect what you have
10 told the investigators at that time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today in court, would
13 your answers be the same as recorded in this statement?
14 A. My answers would be the same then as now or, potentially, at some
15 point in the future. My answers would always remain the same.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic. And we will go over a few of these
17 statements again in the next few minutes.
18 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, given the witness's answers I would
19 like to move the statement into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
21 MR. MISETIC: No objection, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No objections from -- and you're speaking on behalf
23 of all Defence teams from what I see, Mr. Misetic.
24 Mr. Registrar, the 92 ter witness statement would be number ...
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P723, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P723 is admitted into evidence.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. For everybody's
4 assistance and information, I would like to read out a very brief summary
5 of what's contained in P723.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, I have to -- I think I spoke too quickly
7 when I said that P723 was admitted into evidence. There might even have
8 been some overlap with what you said. I apologise for it. But I would
9 like to have it clear on the record that P723 is admitted into evidence,
10 and I'll improve my performance in this respect.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Before Operation Storm, the witness was living in the hamlet of
14 Mirkovici in the village of Polaca
15 morning on 4th August, 1995
16 The witness also observed smoke in the town of Knin, which was about 17
17 to 18 kilometres from the witness's village. At around 12.00 to 1.00 in
18 the afternoon, the witness and his family could see people on the Knin
19 road moving from the villages around Knin. At around 9.00 p.m.
20 afternoon, the witness and his family decided to leave. His mother
21 refused to join them, and the witness gave her money and told her she
22 could use it until he returned.
23 The witness and his family left his village and went through Knin
24 and joined the convoy of refugees. When he saw the convoy, he realized
25 that there was no turning back and continued to Bosnia, eventually
2 his house in Polaca and had seen the remains of the witness's mother. He
3 said that something had been poured over her body and she had been
4 burned. The witness later learned that his mother's body had been
5 buried, and he filed a request to have her body exhumed. He never
6 received a response to his request.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 MR. MISETIC: I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honour. I'm aware
10 that the summaries are not evidence. There is one issue that I would
11 just point out that I don't think the witness says in the statement. I
12 won't say it with the witness here, and I don't know if it's relevant,
13 but I do want to preserve our position on it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would perhaps --
15 MR. MISETIC: I'll consult with --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Briefly consult with Mr. Waespi and then see whether
17 the summary --
18 MR. MISETIC: Yes. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- you're right, not being evidence, nevertheless,
20 to be corrected if it's inaccurate --
21 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- in any way.
23 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
25 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 If potential Exhibit 65 ter 4771 could be retrieved, which is a
2 map of the Knin area.
3 Q. And while that is it being done, Mr. Mirkovic, you lived in the
4 hamlet of Mirkovici as we know. Now, how many people lived there in this
5 hamlet prior to Operation Storm?
6 A. Between 55 and 60 people.
7 Q. And how many families would that be?
8 A. A total of 11, 11 households.
9 Q. And what is the ethnicity of these 11 families and their members?
10 A. They were orthodox, Serbs.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.
12 MR. WAESPI: Now, if the map could be zoomed in on the right part
13 of the eastern part where we can see Knin, top right part. It's more the
14 top right part than the middle or lower right part. Yes, I think that's
15 fine. Perhaps even more on the right side, and if we can scroll up a
16 little bit. Sorry, the other way around. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, you see Knin there. Is it sufficient for you to
18 identify the village of Mirkovici
19 you see in front of you?
20 A. Yesterday I had a better view of the map when we were looking at
21 it together. My view today is not as clear.
22 Q. Perhaps you can - yes - enlarge it.
23 A. It's better now. I don't think there is any need to zoom in
25 MR. WAESPI: If Mr. Usher could assist with you a pen so you can
1 mark the village of Mirkovici
2 the location we are talking about.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic. And perhaps can you also indicate where
5 the larger village of Polaca
6 A. It is not really a large village. It's all one village, Polaca,
7 but Polaca comprises a number of hamlets, Mirkovici, Wolkovici, Todorici,
8 Cibozna, Ciladzicin [phoen], and so on and so forth. There were, shall
9 we say, 10 to 20 households each in each one of those hamlets, but all
10 these hamlets make up the village of Polaca
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic. In fact, we can see the word "Polaca"
12 in spread letters about three centimetres above the word "Mirkovici."
13 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I can circle Polaca for you,
15 too, if that helps you.
16 MR. WAESPI:
17 Q. Yes, please.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Just to be sure, Mr. Waespi, you refer to what we
21 saw north of Mirkovici. There I see the word "Pola" but not "Polaca."
22 Were you referring to that? Because it seems that the witness circled --
23 oh, I see it now. I see it. Now I see it. Yes. Yes, I correct myself.
24 I think Polaca is both indicated as an area designation and under
25 M. Polaca, apparently as a hamlet.
1 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I may.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Misetic.
3 MR. MISETIC: This was actually what I was going to raise. I
4 think maybe the witness wanted to circle the word, but I think his
5 earlier testimony he made clear correctly that Mirkovici itself is part
6 of Polaca as are the surrounding hamlets, so the actual Polaca is a much
7 bigger circle than he has circled in this location.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have identified already three Polacas in the
9 area, and I don't think, as a matter of fact, that it creates great
10 confusion, Polaca being an area in which several hamlets are found,
11 including Markovici.
12 MR. WAESPI: Yes, and in P723 - that is witness statement,
13 paragraph 1 - the witness explained that Mirkovici is part of Polaca.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think we should not spend more time on
15 this. It is clear to us, Mr. Mirkovic. We looked at the map -- we were
16 a bit confused, but all the confusion is gone now.
17 So, Mr. Waespi, please proceed.
18 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Perhaps for the record, this exhibit is also
19 already P190, but I think with these markings it should receive a new
20 exhibit number.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P724.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Map marked by the witness and is, in the absence of
24 any objections, admitted into evidence.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, how long did the people, the families over
3 generations live in this village, if you know?
4 A. All I know is that the village -- the church in the village of
5 Polaca dates back to 1554, I think. I'm not entirely certain about the
6 year. Don't hold me to it, but I know it's that old, roughly speaking.
7 Another thing I can tell that you is my grandad died in 1968. He
8 was 98 years old at the time he died, and he used to tell me about his
9 father who also lived to a ripe old age. For a church to be built in a
10 village like that, first people had to arrive. Then they would build
11 their own homes, and then they would build a church after they'd build
12 their homes, which implies a lot of time passing between the two. The
13 idea the people got there. We know that there were monasteries around
14 Knin. One of those was built in 1368.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mirkovic. Now, turning to your specific family,
16 how big, how large was your family?
17 A. At the time, we are now considering it was me, my mother, my
18 wife, and my two daughters. As for my extended family, well, that would
19 take some time. My father had five brothers. They each had three or
20 four children. It's a large family.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, in August 1995, did you own property in Polaca?
22 A. I owned nothing at the time, or rather, I do believe I owned
23 something but this is the sort of tradition that we have back where I
24 come from. Everything is owned by the parent as long as the parent is
25 alive, but we all were involved in -- in the building up of this
1 property. My mother, my father, I was involved, as well, but technically
2 speaking, the owner was always my mother.
3 Q. And what did your mother own?
4 A. The land that we owned, our vineyards, meadows, pasture, some
5 woodland, the house that we owned, all the machinery that was there,
6 anything that you normally find included in a -- in an average rural
8 Q. And very briefly, how was life for you in -- before Operation
10 A. Before the operation, life was hard. We lived in some sort of a
11 natural preserve. We can move and -- but our life was quite poor. But
12 before the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia, life was actually
13 fairly good. We can't all say it was a bad living. We all had jobs. We
14 were involved in agricultural work, and we were making a nice living, all
15 of us. We managed to build our homes. We had tractors. We had all the
16 machinery that we needed. We had our cars, and we actually had
17 everything that a normal household needs to get by on a daily basis.
18 Q. Turning to the events on the 4th of August. We know from your
19 statement now that the village Polaca was shelled. Now, when exactly was
20 it shelled as far as you recall?
21 A. It was perhaps at about 10.00 or 11.00 a.m. that sporadic shells
22 started falling. The shelling wasn't very intense at first. There were
23 a few shells that fell at first that landed there, but none of the
24 households were affected. No one came over to say that they'd been
25 harmed or anything like that. This was more by way of intimidation, or
1 perhaps they were just missing their targets at first.
2 Q. Talking about targets, as far as you know, were there any
3 military targets in the area where these shells were falling?
4 A. There were no military targets in Polaca.
5 Q. Eventually, Mr. Mirkovic, your family decided to leave. When did
6 your family decide to leave?
7 A. That evening at about 9.00 or 9.30, that evening or thereabouts
8 we decided to leave our house.
9 Q. And why did your family decide to leave?
10 A. Why? We knew there was a war on. We knew what happened to other
11 people who had stayed behind. We knew about the Medak pocket. We knew
12 about Miljace. We knew about Western Slavonia. None of the people
13 living there, my family included, needless to say, believed that we would
14 be safe and that we would be able to get on with our lives. This
15 eventually proved true. My mother was adamant that she would stay
16 behind, and we all knew what became of her.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, I'm looking at the clock.
18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mirkovic, we have to conclude for the day.
20 First, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone
21 about your testimony, whether the testimony you already gave today or
22 about the testimony still to be given tomorrow, and we'd like to see you
23 back tomorrow at quarter past 2
24 We adjourn until Tuesday, 26th of August, 2.15 p.m., Courtroom 2.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the, 26th day of
2 August, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.