1 Friday, 12 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you
7 please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Good morning to you as well, Mr. Liborius. Same procedure that
13 you're reminded that you're still bound by the solemn declaration that
14 you gave at the beginning of your testimony.
15 Mr. Misetic, are you ready to continue your cross-examination.
16 MR. MISETIC: I am, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 WITNESS: SOREN LIBORIUS [Resumed]
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]
20 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Liborius.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Sir, following up on our discussion yesterday, you gave us some
24 names on a sheet of paper. But in reviewing the transcript I noted that
25 you also mentioned that you maintain contact with some of your ECMM
1 colleagues. Could you tell us the names of the ECMM colleagues from that
2 time-period with whom you remain in contact?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.
4 THE WITNESS: I did discuss with Stig Marker-Hansen and
5 Eric Hendriks. However, I have not had contacts with them in the recent
6 time. Just a correction of your maintain contact, could indicate that we
7 have a long contact even today.
8 MR. MISETIC:
9 Q. Could you tell us when the discussions with Mr. Marker-Hansen and
10 Mr. Hendriks took place?
11 A. It took place in 1995. I met Mr. Marker-Hansen again in 1996,
12 1997, I believe.
13 Q. Any time after 1997?
14 A. Oh, that's difficult to say. I don't think so.
15 Q. Okay. And what about Mr. Hendriks?
16 A. I haven't had contact with Mr. Eric Hendriks for many years. So
17 the last time would be in our ECMM years, yes.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D50-0382, please.
20 Q. Mr. Liborius, on your screen you see a bus. Do you recall ever
21 seeing a bus like this during your time at the monitoring mission?
22 A. Exactly that type of model and bus or the Promet -- I did see the
23 Promet sign on some of the buses. In general, they were often older
24 mark. When has that picture been taken?
25 Q. This picture is undated. But my question to you is: You saw the
1 Promet. Do you recall also seeing that the buses would sometimes be
2 marked by the cities from which the bus line operated? For example, on
3 the back end of the bus it says Split Hrvatska or Split Croatia
4 A. I do remember that there were some inscriptions on the buses,
5 names of cities, sometimes, yeah.
6 Q. Let me draw your attention, right now -- Madam Registrar [sic],
7 if we could have -- D743 on the screen, please. This is your notebook.
8 MR. MISETIC: Oh, sorry, Mr. Registrar, I apologise. And,
9 Mr. Registrar, if we could go to the page marked on the bottom right-hand
10 corner as 1D50-0253.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Liborius, this is your notebook entry for 24 August.
12 And if you see -- it says Grahovo there. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you read that out for us and tell us what you found, based
15 on your notes, when you were in Grahovo?
16 A. When I read my notes it says: Grahovo, buses, trucks, other
17 vehicles, 10/10, large, Split
18 different units, CUMDR, abbreviation for commander. Receiving large
19 envelopes, minus heavy, or minus engineer equip, abbreviation for
20 equipment, reorganisation HVO, MO
21 Q. Okay. Now --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you again you said reorganisation where it
23 very much looks as if it is a "G" at the end is that because it is Danish
24 or is it "reorganising" or is it --
25 THE WITNESS: [Foreign language spoken]... is in Danish.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, yes, please proceed.
2 MR. MISETIC:
3 Q. Now the entry "Split buses," as you sit here today do you know if
4 you were able to identify the buses as being from Split on the basis of
5 the plates or on the basis of the buses as I just showed you a picture
6 that it said Split on the buses.
7 Can you tell from your notes?
8 A. What do I write in the daily report?
9 Q. Well, I'm asking you right now if you could tell on the basis of
10 your notes.
11 A. On the basis of my notes, probably it would be a combination of
12 number plates and writings on the buses.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MR. MISETIC: Now if we could go to P813, please.
15 Q. Now, this is the daily report for that same day. If we go down
16 to military situation. And you can read that to yourself for a minute,
17 and tell me when you finish reading that portion.
18 A. I have read the military situation, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, you note that when you prepared the daily report
20 or whoever prepared the daily report at the end of the day, instead of
21 writing that the vehicles were from HVO/HV, Mostar and Split, it instead
22 says Zadar and Sibenik with no mention of Split. And I was wondering if
23 you could explain to us why in your notes it says the buses were from
24 Split and in the daily report it is Zadar and Sibenik, without any
25 reference to Split
1 A. As I said before, it could very well be that there had been Split
2 writings on the wall -- on the buses.
3 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would tender the picture of the
4 buses as a Defence exhibit, 1D50-0382.
5 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D754.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D754 is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Mr. Registrar, I'm going to call up with an exhibit which I think
11 the Prosecution has tendered but it still has no P number, so we can
12 assign a P number to it right now. It is 65 ter 5435, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P828.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I see this on my list as translation requested. Is
16 there a translation already?
17 MR. MISETIC: That's not the document I'm trying to call up.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have an ECMM special report, 3rd of October. Yes,
19 that's the one.
20 That appears on my list where it's the -- the number is
22 MR. MISETIC: Well, I'll call it up by a different 65 ter number
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. MISETIC: One moment, Your Honour.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. MISETIC: I'll move on to that topic in a moment,
3 Your Honour, while we find the document.
4 Your Honour, for the moment we will show it via Sanction just so
5 we don't waste time, but it is a 65 ter exhibit as well. And I will
6 later come back and tender it as the 65 ter number.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 MR. MISETIC:
9 Q. Mr. Liborius, if you can look at your screen this is an ECMM
10 special report. At the end it is signed by Mr. Sanchez Rau -- or not
11 signed but --
12 A. I don't see any document. Thank you.
13 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to the tenth paragraph of this
14 report, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I believe I found the document. It is
17 65 ter 2378.
18 MR. MISETIC: It is on page 4 of this document, please.
19 Q. Now, can you tell us who Mr. Sanchez Rau was, Mr. Liborius?
20 A. Head of mission, ECMM.
21 Q. And in the hierarchy, where would that place him?
22 A. Top.
23 Q. Top, okay.
24 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page four, please, in this
1 Q. There under the section on burning, Mr. Sanchez Rau writes:
2 "Throughout the Krajina, houses were burnt and even today, more than five
3 weeks after the last fighting, they are still being burnt. The
4 large-scale destruction of non-Croat property may lead to the conclusion
5 that it has not only been done by marauding gangs or that it has at least
6 been tolerated by the Croatian authorities."
7 My question to you, sir, is can you help us understand what "the
8 marauding gangs" refers to?
9 A. "Marauding gangs" will have been a word that Mr. Sanchez Rau had
10 decided to use. I don't recall using such a fancy word, not usually in
11 my vocabulary. But if you, here in 2008, ask my opinion about marauding
12 gangs, my position now, I'm prepared to do so. Should I do that,
13 Your Honour?
14 Q. Well, let me ask it a different way. You testified on direct
15 examination that the issue of warlords was not even something that was
16 discussed at the time. Now, this doesn't say "warlords" but it says
17 "marauding gangs," and I'm wondering if you recall discussions within the
18 ECMM about marauding gangs causing burning and looting?
19 A. I did not have marauding gangs in my discussions. I did
20 pronounce myself a couple of days ago regarding warlords. I'm not sure
21 what your question would entail.
22 Q. Marauding gangs in this context seems to suggest some sort of --
23 I don't want to mischaracterize it, but seems to suggest groups of people
24 who are just roaming the area and causing problems. And in the context
25 it says: "It is not only been done by marauding gangs or that it has at
1 least been tolerated by Croatian authorities," and I was hoping that
2 perhaps you could enlighten us as to what the reference to marauding
3 gangs is. Marauding gangs referred to what groups?
4 A. Mr. Misetic, two observations. If you want to know what Mr.
5 Sanchez Rau meant by choosing the words "marauding gangs," you really
6 have to ask himself. Second observation, if you ask for my description
7 as to who committed these burnings, I'm prepared to give you the
8 explanation. It would very much look like the one I have repeated at
9 several instances.
10 Q. No, we don't need you to repeat anything.
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. What I do need you, though, to tell me is where you said on
13 direct that you don't recall the issue of warlords being discussed, do
14 you recall the issuing of marauding gangs being discussed?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness answered the previous question,
17 "Marauding gangs -- I did not have marauding gangs in my discussions."
18 MR. MISETIC: Fine. As long as that's clear.
19 Q. When Mr. Sanchez Rau prepared reports, was it customary that he
20 would rely on what observers in the field had discovered and then compile
21 the reports that would be sent to wherever they were being sent to?
22 A. Mr. Sanchez Rau was the head of the ECMM, at the top of the
23 organisation. So he would rely on input from different elements in his
25 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender this exhibit into evidence,
1 please. Actually, it's a P exhibit so if we could get a P number for
2 it --
3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, no objections.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P829.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P829 is admitted into evidence.
7 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could have P819 on the screen,
9 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, the word "marauding"
10 and "to maraud" was totally unknown to me, and I understand it now to be
11 to rove and raid in search of plunder. Is that correct?
12 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. I didn't know it either.
14 MR. MISETIC: P819. If we could scroll down. If we could go to
15 3a, please.
16 Q. Now, it says: "Apart from two large detonations in the
17 afternoon, probably demolition, the K1 AOR is calm but with most of the
18 active military units and equipment employed in Bosnia-Herzegovina."
19 Could you tell us a little bit more about this sentence about
20 active military units and equipment being employed in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. Could you scroll to the top please, again.
22 Could you scroll down again, please.
23 If I could tell you a little bit more about active military units
24 and equipment being employed in Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes, the HVO and the
25 HV operated side by side. The HV operated - it was my understanding -
1 under the provisions of the so-called Split Agreement between the
2 Croatian president Tudjman and Alija Izetbegovic of Bosnia. That
3 provided the legal basis for Croatian units in Bosnia.
4 Q. And it was your assessment that most of the activity military
5 units and equipment were employed in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that
7 A. What we observed in our area of responsibility was that the
8 larger units were not visible to us.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And we -- as we say in the report, saw that most of the active
11 military units and equipment were employed in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. MISETIC: If we could scroll down, staying right there. You
14 talk about --
15 A. But as the report continues: "For the more comprehensive and
16 detailed military picture it is recommended to attend to the UNMO
17 reporting. This information remains by far the best source of military
18 information as local Croatian authorities refuse to answer specific
19 questions if they are asked ..."
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn the page, please.
22 Q. Now, read the top of that. And it continued from the previous
23 page: "... would be ... jeopardized if K1, still with limited resources,
24 are turned into a MILINFO gathering agency. K1 does not possess the
25 manpower either in terms of quantity of skills nor the necessary
2 Tell us what MILINFO is first?
3 A. Military information.
4 Q. And was there any kind of request to the ECMM to have the ECMM do
5 MILINFO gathering that triggered this entry in this daily report?
6 A. It was a standing point on the agenda of the ECMM monitoring
7 provided for in the original mandate to also report on military
8 information. I would gather that there would have been a discussion,
9 perhaps, inside the organisation as if there could be more focus on
10 military information or less. I would really need to see more paper
11 suggesting this issue.
12 Q. Okay. Well, let's turn then to D741, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: While we're doing that, K1 is one of the units of
14 the monitoring mission?
15 THE WITNESS: Team Kilo 1, yes, Knin.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Knin 1.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. MISETIC: 741, please.
19 If we could turn to page 14 of the transcript, please.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Liborius, for the entry on Saturday, 19 August, from
21 your diary you wrote: "RC meeting in Zadar. We get almost all our ideas
22 approved. It doesn't touch our work area, to the contrary, we are
23 praised for our efforts so far. But on the question of patrolling in HVO
24 parts of Bosnia
25 incompetent neurotic mannequin."
1 Now why did the HRC
2 patrolling in HVO parts of Bosnia
3 A. Could with we go to private session.
4 MR. MISETIC: I don't know why so -- sure.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The problem always is that if it's explained in
6 public session then the harm might be done. We turn into private session
7 for you to explain why we have to deal with the matter in private
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 8544-8562 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
6 I notice that it's 10.30.
7 We'll have a break. We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
11 Mr. Liborius, we will continue. We are in open session again.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour. In light of the witness's answer
14 before the break, my team has pulled a document which is not in e-court
15 which we will show in Sanction and upload in e-court to show the witness.
16 We've just sent a copy to the Prosecutor.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And for the Chamber ...
18 MR. MISETIC: It will be on Sanction.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It will be on Sanction, yes.
20 Mr. Liborius.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 I just have a question as I'm not fully familiar with the
23 procedures of this Court. I presume that my remarks from the private
24 session will not later be reproduced by either the Defence or the
25 Prosecutor in open session and also not with another witness or another
2 JUDGE ORIE: They will not be referred to -- I mean, what is said
3 in private session is to be kept confidential. If there would ever be a
4 need to raise an issue with another witness, that other witness would,
5 first of all, be instructed that he should keep it confidential. But I
6 do understand your concerns, who would be that other witness and under
7 what circumstances.
8 Of course, then Mr. Waespi will be in a position to raise the
10 THE WITNESS: What really is my question is what is the character
11 of the protections of this information.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you're discussing this in open session
13 and I don't know whether that is what you prefer to do.
14 The Victims and Witness Section is perfectly able to explain to
15 you procedural matters, because Mr. Waespi is not in a position at this
16 moment to speak with you. If there are any concerns in that respect,
17 please first address the Victims and Witness Section. If there is any
18 need, then, to liaise with the Chamber or the parties, the Victims and
19 Witness Unit will do so.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, please proceed.
22 MR. MISETIC:
23 Q. Mr. Liborius, we've just retrieved this document. I'd ask you to
24 review it. This is a document dated 28 August 1995, from HRC
25 it talks about the boundaries for the various teams.
1 If could you look through that document.
2 Tell me when you need us to scroll down.
3 A. Please scroll a bit down.
4 Please scroll down.
5 Q. That is the end of the document.
6 A. Please scroll up.
7 Q. Okay?
8 Now, from this document it says in section 2: "Basic grounds
9 were to monitor the situation in the previous RSK (human rights of the
10 remaining Serbs) as well as in the previous free Croatia part of the AOR
11 POW, possible trials with, however, an emphasised focus on the former
12 UN Sector South."
13 It then goes on, it says that basically the same thing, the
14 mission in section 1: Subordinated to RC Zagreb, four teams, Gospic,
15 Zadar, and Dubrovnik
16 war and in the former RSK territories and in the former free Croatia
18 Section 2, third point is: "Stick as much as possible to the
19 Croat administrative boundaries."
20 And then section 3 relates: Teams to internal Republic of
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Where?
24 Q. In section 3. The terms, for example --
25 A. It is very poorly visible here.
1 Q. Are you familiar with what the term "Zupanja" means?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What does it mean?
4 A. The administrative district.
5 Q. Okay. So, the teams then were being -- their areas of
6 responsibility were related to the Croat administrative districts.
8 A. As a general rule, yes.
9 Q. You were asked previously about what the orders were for where
10 you were to go. There is nothing in this order talking about, Team Knin
11 can go into Bosnia
12 A. What is your question?
13 Q. There's nothing in the order that says, Team Knin can go and
14 patrol in Bosnia
15 A. No. And?
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender this exhibit, 1D50-0395 --
18 THE WITNESS: Could I attach a comment to this?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, first of all.
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I have no objection. Also I missed the word
21 "order" in the document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'd say from -- face value it is not an
24 But -- let's -- I mean, the Chamber can read it. Of course, we
25 have heard the evidence also from this witness earlier that -- that the
1 mandate was broader and not limited by the borders.
2 There's no objection, Mr. Waespi. Therefore, Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D754.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 Mr. Liborius, there's a document and what Mr. Misetic asked you
6 does not appear in that document. That's all.
7 I don't know -- if you want to add one word, please do so. But
8 it is just as simple as that. We have -- Mr. Misetic doesn't ask you to
9 draw any conclusions, whether at any stage in the totality of the
10 evidence Mr. Misetic will ask us to draw conclusions, we'll hear that
11 from him. At this moment we're not -- if you want to add a word, please
12 do so, briefly.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, apologies for the interruption. I
14 have a correction to make. The last exhibit should be D755.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D755 is admitted into evidence.
16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
17 Mr. Registrar, if I could go back to D741, please.
18 Q. And if we could now go to the entry for 23 August, which is on
19 page 16.
20 Mr. Liborius, I'm going to show you three diary entries now, and
21 let me go through the three diary entries and then I'll pose a question
22 to you about them.
23 If you look at 23 August, towards the middle you write: "Around
24 Drvar and Trebinje," which are two towns in Bosnia, correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. "There continues to be built up, CRO waits because of US
3 MR. MISETIC: Then if we can turn the page -- I'm sorry.
4 Q. Continuing on, you say you met with the commander in Benkovac.
5 You go on and say: "I wish him and his men few losses and a fair fight
6 down in Trebinje."
7 Which, again as you've said, is a town in Bosnia.
8 MR. MISETIC: If we can turn the page, please.
9 Q. Here you describe your visit to Grahovo and you write: "We
10 decide to go into Grahovo. I'm sure something must be going on in there.
11 And yes, of course, as expected Grahovo is being used as an inner front
12 line junction.
13 Then you describe what you saw. And you say: "It was a victory
14 to have it confirmed that the HV/HVO building will move to Drvar and
15 Trebinje in order to pressure BSA."
16 BSA means Bosnian Serb army, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Flip forward to page 20 which is your entry for 30 August, second
19 sentence: "We get reports of some push towards Drvar from the HV."
20 Now, sir, my question to you is, you were aware, were you not, in
21 August, towards the end of August that the HV was engaged in Bosnia
22 combat. Correct?
23 A. That the HV was engaged at the end of August in Bosnia
24 from the Split
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn the page, please, to go to the
2 September 1 entry.
3 Q. Can you tell us, here it says you went to Donji Lapac and then it
4 says: "There is fighting going on here with the HV/BSA over the border
5 so there are only 18 Serbs in the whole municipality, the rest only
6 soldiers and police."
7 When you actually physically went up to Donji Lapac, sir, can you
8 tell us how you were able to determine that fighting was going on on the
9 other side of the border between the Bosnian Serb army and the HV? Did
10 you see it?
11 A. Could you flip to the daily report of the 1st September, please.
12 MR. MISETIC: That would be P818, Mr. Registrar.
13 THE WITNESS: Could you scroll down, please.
14 Could you scroll up, please. Yes, please.
15 How we were able to determine the fighting was going on, on the
16 other side of the border, I remember that the chief of police, as
17 indicated in the report, provided information to that effect, and we saw
18 rear units, water bladders logistic vehicles.
19 MR. MISETIC:
20 Q. Return for a moment to a different topic. You say on one of the
21 videos that we saw that you personally witnessed soldiers with fuel cans
22 in the Drnis area on the 10th of August setting fire to houses.
23 First, can you tell us who you were with on the 10th of
24 August when you saw this?
25 A. Could you flip to the 10 August report, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
2 MR. WAESPI: I think that might be 65 ter 4048.
3 MR. MISETIC: That's fine.
4 Q. Before we scroll through this, I do want to ask you if you
5 actually recall the incident without looking at the report.
6 A. The incident about the fuel canisters?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. The one where the burning took place when you go down from the
9 road and the entire right-hand side in the direction down to Knin, yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Scroll down, please.
12 Scroll down, please.
13 Next page, please.
14 Scroll down, please.
15 That's the RC report so we're not on the team report. But off
16 the top of my head, the incident, and I would prefer to see the team
17 report, but let's just recapture the incident.
18 We had a patrol in the main road going down south, and we
19 observed smoke in the -- what's that, western side of the valley,
20 indicating that large amounts of houses were being set on fire, and we
21 stopped our vehicle and observed and we saw military personnel moving
22 from one house to another, supported by a fuel truck, and setting houses
23 on fire.
24 It was a very methodically [sic] event or -- executed event,
1 Q. That was in the Drnis area?
2 A. Just south of Knin. I think that we should perhaps see the video
3 that is the --
4 Q. That's okay. If we could go back to -- I'm sorry, my question,
5 though, was who was with you on the trip?
6 A. Stig Marker-Hansen, among others.
7 Q. Who were the others?
8 A. We had our driver, and I presume also Eric Hendriks. But I'm not
9 fully sure.
10 MR. MISETIC: Now, if we could back, Mr. Registrar, to D741,
12 If we could go to page 10, please, which is the entry for that
13 day, on the 10th of August.
14 Q. And I'd ask you to read through that and tell me when you finish
15 reading the entry for the 10th of August.
16 Have you finished reading it, sir?
17 A. No.
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MR. MISETIC:
21 Q. Now, what I noted on this, sir, is that -- first of all, would
22 you agree with me that seeing army units going house to house setting
23 fire to homes with fuel tanks would be an event that would be a
24 significant part of anyone's day, to observe something like that. Do you
25 agree with me?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. In your diary, there's no reference to it and when you
3 talk about the patrol, at the end you say: "The patrols Stig and I
4 conduct are very good. Like the patrol up Mokro Polje, deserted camps,
5 children's books and old tanks. A large KMT
6 personal tragedies are very great."
7 Now if you could explain to the Court why, for example,
8 children's books and old tanks would make it into your diary as an event
9 of the day but Croat troops moving from house to house with fuel tanks
10 wouldn't have been something that you felt should be noted in your diary
11 for the day?
12 A. As far as I remember, the fuel tank episode was covered in other
13 words later, but I'll need to peruse through my entire diary. What is
14 reflected in my diary sometimes is new events. My diary is not a
15 complete repetition of all the activities for an individual day.
16 Whether the inclusion of deserted camps, children books, and old
17 armoury, I guess that it was included as it was a new event on that
18 particular day.
19 Q. Well, I know --
20 A. I did reflect on the way the patrols of me and Stig Marker-Hansen
21 went and I think that by that time that was important in my diary for
22 myself to note down.
23 I would bring it to your attention that the fact that an episode,
24 large burning, if you wish, that took place every single day throughout
25 the entire area did not make it into our diary, or my diary everyday does
1 not suggest that it doesn't take place.
2 The fact we dealt with it yesterday, that it was a Croat or a
3 Serb minority village before 1991, if your question introduces an element
4 that if is it not in, then it isn't, then it is taking things out of
6 My diary is not to be reproduced as the history. Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Liborius, you do also highlight as part of the patrols this
8 visit to the Krka monastery and you do note that: "The Krka monastery
9 was being guarded on direct orders from General Gotovina. Thieves think
11 Can you explain to us what "thieves think alike" means in your
13 A. Yes. The entry into the diary of churches being guarded while
14 large areas were being burned at the same time, it brought home to me
15 this odd situation where you can have complete destruction going on in a
16 large area and suddenly you have a pinpoint where destruction does not go
18 I interviewed the soldier at the gate of the monastery and I
19 believe that some days ago we actually dealt with that issue, how I knew
20 that it was on orders, because I asked the soldier, You're guarding here;
21 yes, it was on direct orders from General Gotovina. Could we enter the
22 church. No, we couldn't because he had orders to guard it.
23 And it struck me that you can have military order protection of
24 property totally intact, pinpoint intact, at the same time as you have
25 intense destruction going on, and I think it was a reflection that thief
1 think every man steal. People in that area knew that things would be
2 burned. Therefore, you would have to guard some other things.
3 I came across the same appearance in other churches. Let me
4 describe the church in the Kosovo Polje which is in the -- by the way,
5 the same area as the incident we just dealt with before, this vast
6 burning of the entire western side of the valley, and you have one church
7 that is kept free of destruction. Thief -- [Foreign language spoken] is
8 a common Danish expression. I do not have the appropriate command of the
9 English language to fully translate that proverb.
10 I would request the translation service perhaps to assist us in
11 [Foreign language spoken].
12 Q. Okay. Mr. Liborius, there are several daily reports including
13 the incident in Guglete where you say you were an eye-witness and you
14 actually recorded some plates. You say you were in Kistanje with plates,
15 you were in Guglete with plates. Which institution of the Republic of
18 A. The institutions of Republic of Croatia
19 senior military and the military governor. I and my fellow monitors
20 brought that to the attention, sometimes, during our meetings. Sometimes
21 we provided factual information, saying, This car with this number plate
22 has been seen in the area where the people in the car was doing this and
23 this and this.
24 Can I please ask you, institutions of the Republic of Croatia
25 Q. Let me rephrase the question. For example, the incident in
1 Guglete where, as I read your testimony, you and Mr. Hendriks were the
2 only eye-witnesses. You saw HV military police and an INA truck or van,
3 you got the plates down. You say, based on circumstantial evidence you
4 concluded that they must have set fire in the village of Guglete
5 You never actually then turned around and called the Croatian
6 police or the Croatian military police and filed a report that you
7 witnessed a crime. Correct?
8 A. The military police, they were there. Do you suppose me to call
9 them and say, Hey, boys, you just set fire to a house.
10 Q. The civilian police?
11 A. That's a nice one. Sorry. Of course we brought that to the
12 attention in our regular meetings. We had stacks of licence plates,
13 military units, where we said, These people are doing what we can observe
14 everyday. Looting and burning. Why don't you do something about it.
15 I also brought it to the attention of Petar Pasic, when he was
16 introduced as the government representative in Knin. I sometimes asked
17 also the police check-points why they were not stopping people who they
18 could in the eye -- just within sight of the eye could see looting and
19 burning. So I think that if I should recall how many times I talked to
20 police officers or government institutions, if we take that as a broad
21 understanding, I could fill a very, very large book.
22 What my finding was that nothing was done to stop it.
23 Let's apply some common sense here. You see a military police
24 car with military police personnel where all circumstantial evidence
25 suggests that they have lit up the house you were just at. How do you
1 think they would react?
2 Q. Well, my question to you then, sir, is how is the commander of
3 the military police to react if, in fact, what you're saying is true if
4 you don't tell him?
5 A. He was -- if he didn't know that, he would be more than blind.
6 What his reaction should have been, and now you get my assessment anno
7 2008, it corresponds to my assessment in anno 1995, 1996, was to take
8 some proper action. Why not bring perpetrators to justice when they do
9 things that are so visibly wrong. I don't recall that there is any
10 excuse for burning and looting at large-scale.
11 Q. Mr. Liborius --
12 A. Could I speak please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, Mr. Liborius, because it is not an answer to
14 the question anymore.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
17 MR. MISETIC:
18 Q. I just want an answer to my question. Sir, you witnessed --
19 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Waespi, he hasn't answered the question.
20 Q. Did you report the crime in Guglete to anyone, yes or no?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. WAESPI: That's a factual question. But before, about the
23 military police commander, I thought that was argumentative.
24 MR. MISETIC: Well, because he's arguing with me, Mr. Waespi.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's -- Mr. Liborius, if the questions are
1 argumentative, I invite you to seek the factual elements in the question
2 and answer to that.
3 Mr. Misetic, if the witness is answering in an argumentative way,
4 I invite you to bring him back to the facts.
5 MR. MISETIC: I'm trying, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. MISETIC:
8 Q. Mr. Liborius, again, this should be a yes or no question.
9 Did you report what you say in Guglete to any Croatian
11 A. As I said, yes, I did, at various occasions with my notebook
12 bring a couple of classical cases, well-documented --
13 Q. I have to stop you because we're really running out of time,
14 Mr. Liborius.
15 A. So the answer is yes.
16 Q. Did you report the plates that you saw in Guglete to the Croatian
17 authorities, and if so, when and who?
18 A. When I had meetings with, as I said, for example, Petar Pasic, I
19 remembered at one instance we were discussing law and order and he said,
20 Well, couldn't you provide factual evidence. And I remembered at one
21 meeting I sat with my notebook, this one here, and took a few incidents,
22 among them also the Guglete.
23 Q. So you didn't refer it to the police. You referred it to the
24 mayor of Knin, right?
25 A. That particular incident, I remembered that I discussed that with
1 Mr. Petar Pasic. I do also remember that I, in discussions with police,
2 would take some classic cases. I cannot here today say at what time of
3 the day I did that.
4 Q. You know Guglete is not part of Knin municipality. Correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. You can't recall a specific date or specific person in the
7 police that you actually referred that incident to, as you sit here
8 today. Correct?
9 A. First part of your question, specific date, no, I cannot; second
10 part of your question, specific person, yes.
11 Q. Who?
12 A. Petar Pasic.
13 Q. Petar Pasic is not part of the Croatian police, Mr. Liborius.
14 A. Right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think that information came across very well.
16 Mr. Liborius has testified that he specifically remembers to have
17 reported this incident to Mr. Pasic. The location is not in Knin.
18 Mr. Liborius has told us that he has no clear recollection on what events
19 he specifically reported to police.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
22 Mr. Registrar, if I can call up 1D50-0383, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
24 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Can we please tender into evidence 4048. That
25 was the exhibit, 10th of August, that was shown to the witness, at least
1 that is my proposal.
2 MR. MISETIC: I believe it has already been tendered by the
4 MR. WAESPI: I don't think so, no. I don't find it on my record.
5 JUDGE ORIE: What again was the 65 ter number?
6 MR. WAESPI: 4048.
7 JUDGE ORIE: 4048 does not --
8 MR. MISETIC: We got an e-mail saying that you were tendering
9 that exhibit right before the direct started from Ms. Henry.
10 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I didn't communicate that to Chambers, that's
11 why I would like to seize the opportunity.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's why we --
13 MR. MISETIC: Fine.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's why we have incomplete lists. Is it -- do
15 you tender it.
16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Shall we assign it a P number.
18 MR. MISETIC: Sure.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P830.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P830 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. MISETIC: 1D50-0383.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could I meanwhile ask, Mr. Waespi, have now the --
24 the notebooks, have they been fully transcribed yet or not, and are they
25 in the system because -- I'm not talking about the diaries but about the
2 MR. WAESPI: The parts that were relevant to my
3 examination-in-chief, yes, have been.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the other parts. I was specifically asking
5 about the other parts.
6 MR. WAESPI: The notebook is -- is huge. I don't think --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is it uploaded in e-court, the original?
8 MR. MISETIC: We have uploaded it, Your Honour. It's the D --
9 D74 --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if it's not -- as long as you've uploaded
11 it's not --
12 MR. MISETIC: It's admitted into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you then give me the number because --
14 MR. MISETIC: Yes. It's two parts, D743 and 744.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly asked not to overlap,
18 MR. MISETIC: Sorry.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Mr. Liborius, this is an ECMM analysis from the 6th of February,
22 1995. And it talks about the capabilities of the Croatian army and the
23 ARSK and what can be anticipated.
24 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn -- we can just flip through the
25 first page and then turn to the second-to-last page, please.
1 If we can scroll down.
2 Q. Now, there's an assessment for Sector South. And the ECMM
3 assessment was: "The strategic and political importance of Knin gives to
4 this sector capital transcendence. On the other hand," and there is an
5 incomplete sentence, "the required ratio of forces for an offensive
6 action could be reached."
7 The third paragraph there: "To ensure or at least to increase
8 the probabilities of success is required a perfect coordination with the
9 HVO which can combine another action against the same sector from the
11 "Final assessment: "Croatian army has not the capability to
12 plan, to prepare, and," if we can go to the next page, please, "finally
13 to conduct a general offensive operation in all the sectors, but if
14 decides a reopening of the hostilities with some guarantees for success,
15 the main and principal attack should pursue an important strategic
16 political and emotional objective to be chosen. This main attack could
17 be combined with a local diversionary one and, in any case, other sector
18 versus to be strongly hold.
19 "The most logical course of action in the case of an offensive
20 operation conducted by the Croatian army would be to organise the
21 manoeuvre as follows: 1, to conduct a diversion attack against UNPA
22 West; 2, to reinforce and held strongly CL in UNPA north; 3, to conduct a
23 decisive and main attack against Knin."
24 Now, Mr. Liborius, as you were being briefed by coming back into
25 the theatre in July 1995, you would have received this assessment.
2 A. That one from 6 February, no.
3 Q. Well, you would have received an assessment that the ECMM should
4 expect that the Croatian army -- the most logical course for the Croatian
5 army would be to conduct a decisive and main attack against Knin.
7 A. I did receive information that would suggest that a military
8 operation would be likely. Or could not be ruled out.
9 Q. Well, did you receive information that the attack most likely
10 would focus on Knin?
11 A. I did receive information at the headquarters of the UN forces in
13 anticipation of a large Croatian army operation, not only limited to the
14 Sector South, but to the entire area of Sector North and Sector South.
15 Q. Mr. Liborius, you've told us that you are a military man as well
16 by background. Could you -- when you read the sentence that says that
17 the Croatian army doesn't have the capability to conduct a general
18 offensive operation and then it goes on to say: "But if it decides, the
19 main principal attack should pursue important strategic political and
20 emotional objective to be chosen."
21 Based on your military background, can you interpret what is
22 meant by choosing an emotional objective?
23 A. I certainly can. But do you think it is the best way forward
24 that we discuss on the basis of the 6th February meeting -- assessment
25 way before the --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, what questions to put to you and in
2 what order is for Mr. Misetic.
3 Please proceed.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay.
5 An emotional objective - now you get my speculations as of
6 today - for example, Knin as the seat of the Krajina Serb centre of
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, the language used apparently is -- the
9 witness says that he starts speculating about it which is, of course, not
10 what we're seeking him to do.
11 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
12 Q. Let me follow up on your answer, then.
13 What you have offered an example of Knin being the centre of
14 power, are you familiar with the term centre of gravity in NATO doctrine.
15 A. A little bit, yes.
16 Q. Okay. What is your understanding of what it means?
17 A. Centre of gravity, and please bear in mind that I'm not an
18 operational planner, full time military, would mean that in your enemy,
19 the segments of both political, military, defence and offensive
20 capabilities would centre around.
21 Q. And if you were assessing --
22 A. But if you can read from a NATO doctrine -- I am not an
23 operational planner in NATO staff headquarters.
24 Q. Well, --
25 A. And if you really seek to develop a discussion on this document,
1 I think you should invite those who wrote it.
2 Q. That's fine. I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to follow-up with
3 your answer which was: What was the centre of political, military,
4 defence, and offensive capabilities of the Krajina Serbs?
5 A. The Knin area, of course, held vital command and control
6 facilities. The corps structures, Lika Corps, Kordun Corps, and so on,
7 would perhaps also -- perhaps not be seen as a centre of gravity but also
8 as important elements.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender the ECMM analysis as a
11 Defence exhibit.
12 MR. WAESPI: No objections, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D756.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D756 is admitted into evidence.
16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
17 Mr. Registrar, if we can go back to D741, please.
18 Q. Mr. Liborius, I'm going to now take you through a few entries in
19 your diary before Operation Storm and ask you just to explain them so
20 that we're clear on how we're supposed to interpret these entries when
21 we're looking at them later.
22 For July 27, which is the next page in, please. There's an entry
23 that says: "Started with a morning briefing at the HQ UNCRO, with second
24 in command Jordan GM. His conclusion: The war is unavoidable, prepare
25 yourself for it."
1 Do you recall that meeting and who it was that told you that war
2 was unavoidable?
3 A. Sorry?
4 Q. 27 July.
5 A. Yes, I do recall that meeting.
6 Q. And what was said about war being unavoidable?
7 A. That it was the assessment of the briefer there that the peace
8 negotiations in progress were not certain to produce a peaceful outcome
9 and that, therefore, preparations should be made for a war.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. MISETIC: If we can go to the next day, 28 July, which is the
12 next page.
13 Q. Third paragraph: "There's a depressed mood in Knin. Grahovo is
14 now in HVO/HV hands. They're afraid of a HV attack on Knin. 100 percent
15 mobilised. Should the children be evacuated? Tough decisions."
16 First tell me a little bit about this issue about the children
17 being evacuated. What is that reference?
18 A. That is a reference to the part of the population in that part of
19 Krajina, and whether they should be brought to Banja Luka, to Belgrade
20 if they should be brought out of the RSK area.
21 Q. Was that your own question or did somebody ask -- you know, in a
22 conversation did some of the local Serbs say to you, Should we evacuate
23 our children?
24 A. I remember that it was an issue being discussed among the local
25 Serb population.
1 Q. Now, the entry about "100 per cent mobilised." What does that
2 refer to?
3 A. Total mobilisation.
4 Q. What do you mean by the term "total mobilisation"? Is that just
5 referring to military-aged men, does it refer to -- what does it refer
7 A. The total mobilisation was the term used by the local Krajina
8 Serb authorities for the degree of mobilisation at that time. I
9 interpreted it so that able-bodied men were required to participate in
10 the armed forces.
11 Q. Okay. Where it says: "They're afraid of a HV attack on Knin,"
12 who is the "they" that you were referring to?
13 A. The local population.
14 Q. Okay. Now, if we can go to the next entry for the 29th of July.
15 You have an entry that says: "RSK has now once again been declared
16 completely mobilised. All the people and materiel are now included in
17 the total defence."
18 What does "all the people" refer to?
19 A. It refers to statements by the local authorities that the persons
20 who were able should participate in the defence.
21 Q. And what does the materiel refer to?
22 A. Materiel in Danish, is [Foreign language spoken]. You have
23 personnel [phoen], personnel, and materiel --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Equipment, in a broader sense?
25 THE WITNESS: Military equipment. Yeah, broader sense.
1 MR. MISETIC:
2 Q. Now if we could turn the page and go to the entry for the 30th.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
4 MR. WAESPI: I believe the witness said "military equipment,"
5 which is not recorded in the transcript.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Military equipment in the broadest sense.
7 That's what happens if I intervene. People are speaking at the same
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. MISETIC:
11 Q. The 30th of July, there's a sentence there that says: "The
12 interpreters are driving their children to Banja Luka, Beograd
13 safe places."
14 Can you tell us how you learned that information?
15 A. From our staff.
16 Q. Did some of your staff drive their children to Banja Luka,
18 A. No. They were using their personal cars.
19 Q. What I meant was when it says "the interpreters," were they
20 interpreters on your staff?
21 A. Yes, but not all of them.
22 Q. Right. Then there's a reference to the Patriarch Pavle, Martic,
23 KN Dragan -- KN Dragan, does that refer to Captain Dragan?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Babic. "Yes, they were all there at the train station. Full
1 speed on the nationalist rhetoric, the music. Martin ..." skipping on
2 down, "The church is glowing in war rhetoric, therefore, no good is
3 coming from there.
4 What does that sentence mean? "The church is glowing in war
6 A. That the speech of the patriarch was inflammatory, that it
7 rejected all possibilities for co-existence between Serbs and Croats,
8 that war was, if it came, a holy endeavour. It was nothing -- when I say
9 no sound talk is coming from that one, it is to be understood that he was
10 not participating or contributing to finding a peaceful way out and
11 supporting the peace negotiations in earnest.
12 You said music. Nationalist muziken [phoen] that is an
13 expression. It is not music as such, it is rhetoric and speaking and so
15 Q. Just so we're clear and there's no confusion. Patriarch Pavle is
17 A. He was the senior religious figure.
18 Q. Of?
19 A. The church, the Serb Orthodox church.
20 Q. And do you recall there being a large gathering in Knin on the
21 30th of July where Patriarch Pavle spoke?
22 A. I write in my diary approximately 1200 spectators, but that is my
23 own assessment.
24 Q. There's also a reference here it says: "Martic in battle attire,
25 promises personally to take Grahovo back."
1 Do you recall what he said about that?
2 A. Not word by word but he certainly made words to the effect that,
3 as far as I remember, that he would personally be leading the units going
4 up to Grahovo and take it back and that enforced this -- this rhetoric,
5 the reference to nationalist muziken, the nationalist overinflated
7 Q. If we can go to the next day.
8 You talk about the points of the Akashi RSK agreement and that
9 Tudjman demanded several things.
10 If you can look through all of them. Your conclusion is: "Yes,
11 so they are prohibitively high demands."
12 Can you tell us why were Tudjman's demands prohibitively high?
13 Which one of the demands was prohibitive or which of them, I should say?
14 A. When taken together, the demands, and let me stress that this was
15 my analysis of how the Krajina Serbs would react, not an assessment of
16 how I see the best way forward. Let's just keep that in mind. That the
17 demands, the four demands that the pipeline should be operational within
18 24 hours, that direct negotiations about the rest of the infrastructure,
19 especially railroad, Zagreb-Split via Knin, the Croatian constitution
20 should rapidly be finalised so that RSK could be reintegrated peacefully
21 into Croatia
22 with -- or negotiations could be with others than Martic. When I say,
23 yes, there are -- what is the English translation? Yes, so they are
24 prohibitively high demands that is to suggest that the RSK reaction to,
25 in particular, the infrastructure parts, well, also the fourth part, they
1 would not accept them.
2 Q. Speaking of the fourth part, do you think -- it was your
3 conclusion that the Krajina Serbs would not accept that fourth element.
4 Isn't that right?
5 A. It was my conclusion at that time as, if you wish, a political
6 analysist [sic]. That is not to suggest that it was what I personally
8 Q. Of course. Now, continuing on in that entry. Second paragraph:
9 "Otherwise today is significantly more calm than yesterday. Now the
10 worse panic has subsided. People are now being stopped by CPs so they
11 aren't fleeing out of RSK."
12 "CPs" stands for what, Mr. Liborius?
13 A. Check-point.
14 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more about where you received this
15 information that people were being stopped at check-points so they aren't
16 fleeing out of the RSK?
17 A. I just need to find the place. Could you ...
18 Q. It's the next paragraph after we -- the four points being
19 prohibitively high, on the 31st of July.
20 A. Yes. Yes, it was a combination of both information from
21 colleagues and locals.
22 MR. MISETIC: If we can turn to the 2nd of August entry, which is
23 page 6.
24 Q. 2nd of August, your diary says: "The Knin valley works like
25 people are now in a state of war with all the uniformed men at the front.
1 ARSK has worked hard in the most recent days in order to establish
2 defensive lines around Grahovo."
3 First, can you tell us where you received the information about
4 establishment of defensive lines?
5 A. Again, from colleagues and from local population.
6 Q. Did you see movement of troops or materiel on or around the 2nd
7 of August by the RSK army?
8 A. There was movement of soldiers, I remember.
9 Q. Now, if we can go to the 4th of August, please, which is the next
11 Towards the end it says: "ARSK in disbandment. Many losses on
12 its account, sadly. The military leaders and political leaders seem to
13 have disappeared."
14 Do you recall where you got that information on the 4th of
16 A. When I say a lot of losses on that account, sadly, I was
17 referring to individual persons. You should mark -- this is an full stop
18 after ARSK is in -- what's the -- is in disbandment.
19 Q. I'm just asking about the information that the military leaders
20 and political leaders seem to have disappeared.
21 Where did that information come from?
22 A. UN colleagues.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Liborius.
24 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I have no further questions for the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
2 Mr. Kay, you're next.
3 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- again, it is not any criticism, we spent a
5 lot of time this morning on procedural matters. Of course the Chamber
6 was involved in that as well. Even if I would deduce all of that,
7 Mr. Misetic, you were just a little bit over the one and a half hour for
8 the first session.
9 Let's try, all of us, to work as efficiently as possible and you
10 are specifically invited, Mr. Liborius, to do that as well. And the
11 first step would certainly be to carefully listen to what exactly is
12 asked from you.
13 I just give an example of the last one where Mr. Misetic was not
14 very precise, whether he asked about the information about the
15 disbandment or the leaders not being present anymore, so parties are
16 invited to be very price in their questions. You're invited to carefully
17 listen to the questions.
18 Please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: And Mr. Kay is ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, usually counsel introduce themselves. I
21 sometimes do it. Mr. Kay is Defence counsel for Mr. Cermak.
22 I thank you for your insistence, Mr. Liborius. I had forgotten
23 to do it.
24 MR. KAY: Thank you for the introduction, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:
1 Q. Mr. Liborius, first of all I'm going to ask you some questions
2 about the ECMM.
3 Looking at your evidence as a whole, it seems that you were
4 operating outside the UN structure. Is that right?
5 A. Hello, Mr. Kay.
6 I was operating outside the UN structure. The ECMM had its own
7 mandate, dated back from 1991, and it had its operations, so it was
8 operating side by side, in some instances, vis-a-vis the UN structure.
9 Q. Thank you very much. We've seen an agreement in this court as an
10 exhibit - no need to bring it up; it is called D28 - which was between
11 Mr. Akashi, on behalf of the UN, and Mr. Sarinic, on behalf of the
12 Croatian government. You, as a member of the ECMM, were outside that
13 agreement. Is that right?
14 A. Then I really have to see the agreement.
15 Q. Take it from me, you're not mentioned in it and it was a fact
16 that I thought you may know. If you don't know, just say so.
17 A. We had a standing agreement that we could draw on the UN
18 support --
19 Q. The question I asked is about the Akashi-Sarinic agreement. If
20 you don't know anything about it, just say so.
21 A. I don't know anything about that.
22 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in your position. You came to Knin at
23 the end of July. It's right that you were away on holiday from the --
24 about the 8th of September to the 20th of September. Is that right?
25 I've looked at your diary and seen that you were away on holiday
1 from the 8th of September and you stayed up in Zagreb for some days.
2 Certainly till around the 20th of September.
3 A. I was on leave 8 September, and I came back from leave 26
4 September, not the 20th of September.
5 Q. Thank you very, very much. And you returned from Zagreb to Knin
6 and continued working in Knin from the 26th of September, or were you
7 away on -- on other trips in October or November that you can recall? I
8 don't want you to read all your diary; just if you can recall it.
9 A. I did have trips to Zadar, to Split -- November. Among others.
10 And I did return to Zagreb
11 Q. Thank you. When the Croatian forces came into Knin on the 5th of
12 August, did you have an established link to those forces as of -- of that
13 date with whom you could liaise as to what was happening in Knin?
14 A. I did not. The HRC
15 covered in some of the reportings with regard to General Cermak, I think.
16 But right on the 5th, I did not myself.
17 Q. Did you have any contacts prior to that date of the 5th of
18 August with the Croatian military?
19 A. How far back do you want to go?
20 Q. Just say yes or no, if you had.
21 A. Prior contact with Croatian military. I recall having spoken to
22 some Croatian army personnel in the Pleso airport before my arrival in
24 Q. Would it be right to characterize it then that you had no
25 substantial or significant contact with the Croatian military before they
1 arrived in Knin on the 5th of August?
2 A. That's not right.
3 Q. Well --
4 A. -- also have meetings with Croatian personnel, Brigadier Misic, I
5 think, back in 1994 and others of the Croatian armed forces.
6 Q. It doesn't seem substantial to me. Are you able to correct the
7 impression in any way by giving more detail? I noticed you referred to
8 meeting some people at an airport. That doesn't sound substantial to me.
9 Are you able to characterize it in a more precise way?
10 A. Pleso airport was not an airport. Pleso airport was part of the
11 UN operation and it had many, many peoples coming and going there.
12 Could you please be more specific as to the character of the
13 conduct? I'm not sure what you're --
14 Q. I'm going to change the question, actually, to this.
15 Did you have any in-depth knowledge of the structure of the
16 Croatian military as of the 5th of August, 1995?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in what way? Perhaps you could describe it to me, what you
19 knew about their military.
20 A. I had received a number of briefings in UN format and in national
21 format. I had, as I said, in 1994 I had a chance to discuss with senior
22 Croatian military personnel. I would say that my general knowledge or my
23 general understanding of the Croatian military was at a -- at a
24 reasonable level.
25 Q. Very well.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I think a list was distributed yesterday as
2 far as the breaks are concerned. We'll continue today -- the morning
3 until 2.00, which means that we now should take a break of 20 minutes so
4 that we have the last part of this morning's hearing between 12.40 and
6 MR. KAY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break for 20 minutes and we'll resume
8 at 20 minutes to 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could we turn into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 8597-8613 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, we had to discuss a procedural matter
3 which had nothing to do with your testimony here. We apologise. I
4 understood that you also had another matter.
5 Yes, Mr. Liborius.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
7 It was brought to me, for the first time, during the break, that
8 there was apparently a requirement for me to sign a Rule 75(C) document,
9 and it's -- I don't know all the legal articles.
10 I was a bit surprised to learn that, and I discussed with the
11 Witness Section what that would mean. They said that -- they believed
12 that I had signed it and it was the first time I had heard about it. So
13 I'm not fully aware of what the legal status then is, as I have not
14 signed it yet.
15 That was the reason --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me read to you Rule 75(C), and I earlier said
17 you should discuss the matters with the Victims and Witness Section --
18 THE WITNESS: I did, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... you come back, so that's
20 apparently what you did.
21 Rule 75(C) reads: "The Victims and Witnesses Section shall
22 ensure that the witness has been informed before giving evidence that his
23 or her testimony and his or her identity may be disclosed at a later date
24 in another case, pursuant to Rule 75(F)."
25 Rule 75(C) deals with witnesses in respect of whom protective
1 measures have been granted. Such measures often are the expunging of
2 names and identifying information from the public records. Sometimes
3 that these witnesses give their testimony through image or voice-altering
4 devices or that they testify under a pseudonym.
5 Now, what actually Rule 75(C) says is that if protective measures
6 are granted, and I repeat, no protective measures were granted in respect
7 of your person, although we allowed you to give a small portion of your
8 evidence in private session, that there are legal mechanisms than always
9 requires a decision by a Chamber, that whatever is said here in a
10 confidential hearing should remain confidential even if that evidence, if
11 the transcript would be used in any other proceedings, and that it's only
12 on the basis of a decision by a Chamber that it could be made public.
13 And apparently, I don't know whether this is misunderstood, but
14 the information is mainly to give you a proper understanding of what the
15 Rules in this respect say.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Now, that's -- this is not happened that I have been informed of
19 this and I have not signed it. But --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I -- [Overlapping speakers]
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, not prior to giving testimony. I
22 appreciate your explanations and I just have two questions.
23 With regard to the -- you mentioned 75(F), other cases.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Outside this Court or in the --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The procedures are there for both cases in this
2 Tribunal and sometimes material to be used in local courts as well, but
3 then these courts have to seek permission from the Tribunal and as a
4 general standard then the witness will be contacted to what extent he
5 would have objections against this material to be given to, for example,
6 a local prosecutor who might need that material for investigative
8 THE WITNESS: So my consent would be required prior or --
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what I said.
10 THE WITNESS: No, that's not why I ask.
11 I asked the -- when in discussion with the Witness Section --
12 were the penalties associated if breach of confidentiality is done --
13 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Would the parties agree that, where I
14 earlier said that the Chamber is not in a position to speak with the
15 witness, that I would have during one of the next breaks a short
16 conversation with the witness in which I can answer questions exclusively
17 related to this issue.
18 Any objection such a solution?
19 Mr. Waespi.
20 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
21 MR. KAY: For my part, I don't, Your Honour. Maybe he needs the
22 assistance of one of the Chamber's legal officers --
23 JUDGE ORIE: We could also ask one of our legal officers.
24 MR. KAY: -- or a lawyer.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Or a lawyer, yes. Well --
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- our legal officers are lawyers.
3 Yes, but if the Chamber would assist, let me say it in very
4 general terms, in giving a proper understanding to the witness of his
5 position and especially in view of the very small portion of the evidence
6 that was given in private session, that there seems to be no objections.
7 I'm also looking at other Defence counsel.
8 No objections.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal with the matter outside Court and it
11 might well be that I even have a Scandinavian person for you to explain.
12 THE WITNESS: I can talk with a Norwegian legal advisor for two
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, are you ready to continue.
15 MR. KAY: Thank you very much.
16 Q. In relation to the Croatian political structures in August 1995,
17 did you have a good understanding of how the country was governed, its
18 ministries, the powers of those ministries, how the country ran its legal
20 A. Who should do that assessment, if I have a good understanding.
21 I'm sure that my general understanding was that a -- at an okay level to
22 perform my monitoring function, but I'm also sure that some even local
23 people would say that I probably didn't even understand anything or some
24 were to argue -- a good understanding is a little weak.
25 Q. Can I just put -- some people come along, Mr. Liborius, and think
1 they know all about a country when they have been in effect - I don't say
2 this disparagingly - a military tourist, and others come along and say, I
3 didn't have an in-depth knowledge, I didn't know how the institutions
4 worked but I was there faced with a job and a task.
5 Do you understand what I'm getting at? And whether you can
6 answer that question in those terms may assist us.
7 A. Let's, for practical purposes, say that I had a reasonably fair
9 Q. Thank you. In relation to General Cermak, and we'll be returning
10 to the questions I've just add you in a moment. In relation to
11 General Cermak, you said you had meetings from time to time. I'm going
12 to ask you to be more precise, as to how many meetings you had with him.
13 We have seen, in evidence, two. Are you able to indicate more?
14 A. I did have more than two meetings with the General. It would,
15 however, require a more in-depth scrutiny of reports to precisely say
16 when. I have previously said that I -- and this is just off the top of
17 my head, if you will accept that, a couple of times and discussed various
18 issues. But I would really have to do a closer scrutiny, if -- to answer
19 precisely to your question, when.
20 Q. I'm going to set you a task, if I may, as we know your evidence
21 won't be finished today and you will be returning to this Court, and I
22 would like you, on your return, to provide me with a list of those dates
23 of meetings you had with General Cermak, and any supporting evidence you
24 may have to that effect.
25 If you can't bring the supporting evidence, the list of the dates
1 will do itself. And perhaps you could bring that when you return on the
2 next occasion.
3 Turning now to other matters, within the documents that you did
4 bring here, am I right in saying the evidence only shows two meetings?
5 A. To your last question, I don't think that is a proper reflection
6 of my material. Secondly, the task of producing an exact list of dates,
7 let me remind what I have said before. I do not have control over the
8 entire ECMM library. I therefore cannot perform such a task to the
9 degree I believe would satisfy your request. However, if you -- I may
10 offer a humble advice, I think that those who have control of the entire
11 ECMM archive could discuss with you how that could best be done.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, I think Mr. Kay invites you to see
13 what you can do to the best of your abilities, no more, no less. Parties
14 may do all kind of other investigative activities. There may be a lot of
15 material already in the hands of the parties, perhaps even in evidence,
16 but Mr. Kay is asking you to see what you can do in this respect.
17 MR. KAY:
18 Q. And why I ask it is because it is not accepted from our side,
19 Mr. Liborius, that you had regular or frequent meetings with
20 General Cermak. Do you understand that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Turning, then, to your understanding of General Cermak, and you
23 said you had a reasonable knowledge of Croatia, its military, its laws,
24 are you able to tell me whether the position of military governor exists
25 within the Croatian governmental system, military system, or anywhere for
1 that matter as a concept within Croatia
2 A. Within my reasonable knowledge to perform my monitoring
3 functions, I was not surprised to learn from different sources that a
4 military governor had been put in place.
5 Q. My question was, and I'll repeat it for you, is, whether, within
6 the Croatian governmental system, military hierarchy, whether there is
7 the position of military governor.
8 A. The full understanding of the entire complexity of the military
9 and civilian structure would require a significant large knowledge I did
10 not have. The military governor, his tasks, subordination and the like,
11 such detailed knowledge was not available to me at the start of the
13 Q. So if the position of military governor did not exist and had no
14 subordination or command, your theories and impressions at the time would
15 be mistaken. Would you agree with that?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
17 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I think the witness can answer about what his
18 factual observations were --
19 JUDGE ORIE: You can make objections against the question. This
20 is a question that can be put to the witness.
21 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I believe it is argumentative.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't think it is.
23 The witness may answer the question.
24 THE WITNESS: I do not command the English language to a degree
25 where I can fully understand your question.
1 I would kindly ask you to be -- speaking with an English language
2 that a non-native speaker --
3 Your theories of impression, could you be more specific, please?
4 MR. KAY:
5 Q. I think you understand my question entirely, sir, but I will deal
6 with it in another way. You --
7 A. No, I do not understand it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no reason -- it's Friday, I'm aware of that.
9 THE WITNESS: Your theories and --
10 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, Mr. Liborius. Mr. Kay will rephrase the
11 question in such a way. And if he finally does not succeed, then we, as
12 non-native speakers, will see whether we can find a solution for it.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
14 MR. KAY:
15 Q. The reason why I asked the question, is you've made a statement,
16 it's in evidence in this Court, and in fact you've made several
17 statements and we're analysing what you said, whether you knew what you
18 were talking about, and one of those statements is this: "His
19 appointment alone indicates that he was in a specified area to direct and
20 control what was the result after the operations had been finalised."
21 Also in another statement: "I was asked about General Cermak's
23 This statement was taken with Mr. Waespi being present.
24 "It was my understanding at the time that Cermak's official title
25 was military governor. This understanding was based on public
1 information by Croatian authorities as well as on the title presented in
2 meetings between the General and the ECMM."
3 So your statement about the rank and position of General Cermak,
4 you link with his authority to direct and control.
5 Now, I am asking you where, in law, if you know that, within the
6 Croatian system, this position is to be found; or did you not know what
7 you were talking about?
8 A. I don't have the reference to the specific law. I think I know
9 what I was talking about.
10 Q. So I'll go back to the original question. So if the position did
11 not exist as you have described it, then you are mistaken or wrong about
12 the powers that you said it would have. Is that right?
13 A. We are pretty high-flying here and I may ask for the non-native
14 speaker's intervention, so if the -- so if the position did not exist as
15 you described it ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Let's just play it simple.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think it is that complicated, Mr. Liborius.
19 What Mr. Kay would like to know is that if your had no proper
20 understanding of this position, whether that would have had, as a
21 consequence, that your assessment of powers related to that position
22 would be wrong.
23 That's the simple question, if I understood Mr. Kay well.
24 THE WITNESS: Hmm ... General Cermak described to me his role as
25 being responsible for law and order, and I believe that I heard public
1 broadcasts -- or other public information, suggesting that the title was
2 military governor, and I think that I have seen correspondence, UN
3 correspondence, and others, where the title was used.
4 When Mr. Augarde had meetings with -- meeting with the General, I
5 was not participating so I don't know what the General presented himself
6 with, but I recall that in one of our reportings just around
7 Operation Storm that the title was introduced.
8 So I do think that the military governor understanding existed.
9 MR. KAY:
10 Q. To go back to the question, if you are wrong about this title of
11 military governor and its control and authority, you have made an error
12 in your description of his powers. Isn't that right? And I'll remind
13 you that someone is on trial here.
14 A. If I'm wrong, of course, then, what you suggest would be right.
15 However, I do not think I'm wrong.
16 Q. Thank you. Have you got any document or note anywhere where
17 Mr. Cermak said that he was responsible for law and order in the region?
18 We have looked at your diary, your notes, your meeting reports. Do you
19 have a single record of a statement by him to you of that? If so, please
20 produce it.
21 Are you going to your statements to the Prosecution? Please
22 answer my question.
23 A. No, I'm going to my reports.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. The problem is that I don`t have all my ECMM reports available.
1 So --
2 Q. Shall I set you another task, because I don't want us to be here
3 all afternoon while you read all your reports. Could you produce a
4 statement by him to you of that effect, if there is one. Thank you.
5 Let's now look at what was printed and published about
6 General Cermak.
7 MR. KAY: And the first document I'd like the witness to see is
9 Q. This is a document dated the 5th of August. It does concern the
10 appointment of General Cermak by the President of Croatia and
11 Supreme Commander of the armed forces, under the laws of the Republic of
13 General Cermak was appointed to be the commander of the Knin garrison.
14 And a Mr. Gojevic was appointed to be Deputy Commander of the Knin
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That is Mr. Cermak's appointment and the appointment that sent
19 him to Knin. Do you understand that?
20 A. I see that.
21 Q. But will you agree it doesn't say he was appointed as a military
23 A. It is not mentioned in that document.
24 Q. Shall we go to D36.
25 Just in case you're harbouring thoughts that there may be some
1 kind of secret appointment, we'll look at what the newspapers reported on
2 the 6th of August.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I'm wondering whether we have to deal with
4 it in this way. I think -- is there any dispute about what the formal
5 position of Mr. Cermak was, Mr. Waespi, in this respect, such as military
6 governor or ... whether he was the garrison commander?
7 If not, then it can be put to the witness in rather short and
8 clear terms, I would say, Mr. Kay, and then --
9 MR. KAY: I am hoping to do this quickly. I have a reason in
10 actually going on this issue this way for the document after this,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, but let's try to find most
13 efficient ways of going through the material.
14 MR. KAY: I do.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. KAY: And, Your Honour, this is a contest as well.
17 Q. There we see the newspaper report: "President Tudjman appoints
18 Ivan Cermak, headline commander of Knin."
19 You will see in the fourth line, he is appointed commander of the
20 Knin garrison, and you will see there, reference to him having been an
21 advisor between 1990 and 1991 to the office of the President, assistant
22 minister of defence, and, in 1993, minister of economy.
23 Did you see any documents at the time from the Croatian side that
24 established Mr. Cermak's appointment?
25 A. Croatian side, is that Croatian authorities or media report
1 or ...
2 Q. Croatian media, Croatian authorities. Were you interested in
3 what they said Mr. Cermak was?
4 A. I did not see any authorities' appointment. I believe that my
5 understanding was, as I said before, based on broadcasts and I believe
6 that I saw UN correspondence, you said Croatian correspondence, but I saw
7 UN correspondence where it was mentioned, and I did not hear him
8 protesting on that mentioning.
9 Q. You see, do you understand this: If someone is wrong about
10 something and passes it to someone else who is also given wrong
11 information, that an incorrect impression can rapidly be passed from
12 mouth to mouth. Do you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what I`m asking you is whether you think you have committed
15 that same error, in relation to General Cermak.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Shall we look at the next document? 2D05-0088.
18 This is a document written by you on the 24th of August, 1995
19 signed by you. And it concerns the harassment of a man called Dusan Drpa
20 and you sending this letter to General Cermak.
21 Do you see who you've sent it to there, the commander ZM, Knin,
22 General Colonel Ivan Cermak.
23 So not military governor, but the commander, ZM Knin. Can you
24 explain that at all?
25 A. General Cermak was referred to, to the best of my knowledge, as
1 military governor. His formal title when addressing there, I think that
2 I talked with -- was it some of the CALOs on his former title. It did
3 not really, to my mind, at that time, made the big difference.
4 I clearly see the address in the letter.
5 Q. Did you know that the garrison HQ where General Cermak was
6 working had under ten people working for him in there, under his control
7 and authority? Did you know that? For these purposes?
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- I won't delay court time, but D30 is a document that the Court
10 knows which shows the staffing of the garrison.
11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the previous document I failed to ask to
12 be admitted as an exhibit.
13 May I admit it, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 MR. WAESPI: No objection.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D757.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D757 is admitted into evidence.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. KAY:
20 Q. The Croatian army legal officers -- not legal officers.
21 Croatian army liaison officers never referred to General Cermak
22 as the military governor, did they?
23 A. My recollection is that when the word "military governor" was
24 used, that it was not immediately being rejected. The --
25 Q. Is the answer then --
1 A. -- army liaison officers referring to him was usually just
2 General Cermak.
3 Q. So is the answer to the question: They never referred to him as
4 military governor.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, may I ask you one question. It seems that
8 the translation of the document that is the 24th August letter contains
9 some handwritten comment at the bottom which I don't find in the
10 original. Is that correct and could you perhaps then upload an
11 uncommented translation?
12 MR. KAY: It's as it came.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We don't know who added anything but it seems not to
14 be in the English original. Apparently in reference to EU or something
15 like that.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. KAY: It had -- that part hasn't been translated.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's the other way around. The English is -- at
19 least in e-court, the English is the original, so something has been
20 added to the translation which is not found in the original.
21 MR. KAY: I think Your Honour will find that the correspondence
22 went in two languages. Remember with General Forand there was the
23 English language document followed by a translation.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case then, of course I am misled by
25 that apparently in the system we are talking about the original and
1 translation where it appears to be two originals in two languages.
2 MR. KAY: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. KAY: Thank you.
5 Q. I'm going to look at a series of documents that look at
6 General Cermak and his ability to try and subordinate individuals or even
7 a collection of soldiers, a unit under him.
8 The first document I'm going to look at is 65 ter 5033.
9 This was a document that the Prosecution had put in a proposed
10 bar table Cermak docs file but not the following documents that I will
11 also be referring to.
12 The first document is dated the 9th of August, 1995. And you can
13 see that it's an order from General Cermak considering the situation
14 within the Knin ZM.
15 Did you know what ZM stands for within the Croatian military?
16 A. Please --
17 Q. Mr. Liborius --
18 A. Please translate.
19 Q. Garrison command. And it's a particular function within the
20 Croatian military system.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the logistics support to Croatian army units and civilian
23 organs of the Knin ZM, and you can see the order, that a -- the commander
24 of the 306th is to temporarily assign a man called Zeljko Jonjic as a
25 temporary replacement, and that order is even delivered to
1 General Gotovina, the 306th commander and a sector commander of the
3 MR. KAY: And it is, as I said, Your Honour, a document that the
4 Prosecution rely upon.
5 Let us now go to 2D05-0086.
6 Q. And coming up will be a document dated the 12th of August, from
7 the 306th logistic base in Split
8 previous order, was based. And it's from the commander of that unit, and
9 he sends this order to the Split Military District commander,
10 General Gotovina. And he doesn't send it to the Knin ZM.
11 And it says, about the commander of the 306th logistic base,
12 Major Jonjic leaving his duty of his own will and making himself
13 available to the Knin garrison commander and at the order of the Knin
14 garrison commander by which the system of the command in the 306th has
15 been seriously disrupted.
16 And then he orders that a Lieutenant Mirkov shall take Jonjic's
17 post and that post shall remain until the emerged situation is solved and
18 possible disciplinary procedure is terminated.
19 And then some orders that go with it.
20 Before I ask you any further questions, were you aware of the
21 structure of the Split Military District, of the units within it, the
22 hierarchy, the identities of the officers, commanders?
23 A. Not all of them.
24 Q. In relation to this document, you agree that that is a complaint
25 by the Commander Pavic about the order putting Major Jonjic within the
1 Knin garrison. Would you agree?
2 A. I haven't seen the document before. I can read it up but I can't
3 really ascertain the status of the document. It's the first time I see
5 Q. Just take it that's an original, all these documents are
6 original. They come from the military files.
7 Let's look at the next document, dated 2D05 --
8 MR. KAY: May the previous document be admitted into evidence,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
11 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D758.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D758 is admitted into evidence.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. KAY: And if we could pull up 2D05-0082.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, before we do so the break will be at 2.00.
18 If you can manage in two minutes, fine; if not --
19 MR. KAY: I think we can.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
21 MR. KAY: That's what I'm aiming to do.
22 Q. 16th of August and we see now not an order by General Cermak to
23 some major in the 306th logistic base but a notice to him and saying:
24 "Dear Mr. Commander, Ivan Pavic." He refers to the order of Major Pavic
25 on the 12th of August and to unnecessary insinuations concerning
1 Major Zeljko Jonjic's leaving of the duty on his own will.
2 And as he says: "As you already know, on my order and as agreed
3 with the Split Military District commander Colonel General Gotovina,
4 Major Jonjic is temporarily assigned to Knin garrison, where he carries
5 out the tasks extremely well. If needed by Colonel General Gotovina, he
6 will return to his position of the Sibenik logistics base commander."
7 Do you understand the thrust of this picture of the orders,
8 Mr. Liborius, concerning the authority and control that General Cermak
9 really had in Knin?
10 Do you understand why we're looking at it?
11 A. I think I understand why we're looking at it. The General, in
12 dealings with not only the UN or ECMM or other visitors, was given as the
13 point of contact when it came to law and order. There was a distinction
14 between General Gotovina and General Cermak. And we certainly used him
15 as the point of contact.
16 I have not seen these papers before. I think I understand -- I
17 think I understand why you are showing the papers, but what I can say is
18 that in our monitoring capacity locally, he even invited me to phone him
19 if we encountered any problems, if we encountered irregularities. He
20 even gave me his phone number so that when there was a problem I should
21 call him and I saw, with the soldiers in the field during the month of
22 August, that his authority was known to the soldiers. Whether he had ten
23 in his command, I will not comment on that. What in effect saw was a
24 person with a title -- a rank of a General who was known to those
25 locally. The agents of the Croatian authorities, mainly military.
1 So for me, he exercised control. His words were important. If
2 we could proceed our patrols or we had to be stopped, I called the
3 General or his staff frequently. I even put his phone number in the
4 first page of my patrol notebook so that I could, with very little
5 problem, find the phone number and dial it, and I saw that it worked.
6 You asked me about, if I know -- if I knew at that time his
7 command, I will rely on what the General told us. I'm not so
8 particularly -- at that time interested in the inner fine mechanics of
9 the Croatian system. He was, as I said, the point of contact.
10 It even developed to the level where, when they were visiting
11 ambassadors accredited to Zagreb
12 speak to.
13 So I gathered that he exercised a great deal of authority.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, and Mr. Kay as well, two minutes
16 become seven.
17 We will have a break and resume at a quarter to 3.00.
18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 2.06 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 2.51 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, I was glad to hear that the
21 conversation with Mr. Nilsson has had a good result.
22 Mr. Kay, are you ready to continue your cross-examination.
23 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour. Two housekeeping matters.
24 Might the document 65 ter 5033 be admitted into evidence.
25 MR. WAESPI: No objections, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D759.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D759 is admitted into evidence.
4 MR. KAY: And the last document I raised, 2D05-0082, may that be
5 admitted into evidence.
6 MR. WAESPI: No objections either.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D760.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D760 is admitted into evidence.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Could we look at a document 65 ter 534.
13 This is a document dated the 11th of August, 1995. Again, it's
14 from General Cermak. It's from the Knin garrison. And it's in
15 accordance with the operational needs in the Knin garrison command. And
16 under the laws of the Republic of Croatia
17 benefit, is one of those bar table docs.
18 We can see an order being issued here to the commander of the
19 142nd Home Guard Regiment. And it is a temporary assignment to the Knin
20 garrison command from the ranks of the 33 and we see names there of
21 individuals, Cacic, Rajcic, Konfota, Kaligar, Kovic, Mjakovic, Krvavica.
22 Let's go now to 65 ter 4599, which was not part of the bar docs.
23 This is dated the 21st of August, 1995. It's, again, a document from
24 General Cermak, for the attention of General Gotovina. It is a request
25 because of the operative requirements of Knin garrison, and in order to
1 expedite the process of getting the city back to normal.
2 Just stopping there, did you in fact understand that that was the
3 specific task of General Cermak, was the process of getting the city back
4 to normal.
5 Did you know that?
6 A. It's the first time I see this document. Getting the city back
7 to normal, it fits quite well with the General's words to international
8 organisations being responsible for law and order. So I think that --
10 Q. When did he say he was responsible for law and order?
11 A. To the best of my belief, he said that in meetings with senior
12 UN officials shortly after having taken up office, and I believe that he,
13 in the meeting with Mr. Augarde, and I think it's produced in one of the
14 ECMM documents, said among other things that he would propose a guard to
15 be posted at our office, among other things.
16 So establishing law and order, I believe, was a part of his
17 brief, yes.
18 Q. First of all, were you present in any UN meeting where that was
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that arranging the guard
23 on the office of the ECMM makes you responsible for the law and order of
24 an entire region? Is that your considered judgement?
25 A. As I said, among other things, that indicates that a range of
1 issues was discussed in Mr. Augarde's meeting, and I actually do consider
2 that taking the -- taking the operational decision, having the
3 compatibility to taking the operational decision to say, I will put a
4 guard in front of a large international organisation's main office in
5 Knin, such a decision, you would not take, unless you had the
6 responsibility for the law and order.
7 Q. Thank you very much. We'll look further, then, at these
9 This is the request for 65 conscripts to be placed under the
10 command of the Knin garrison commander.
11 Do you understand the terms of what that is? That is saying, I
12 don't have the power to direct those conscripts to come and work for me
13 so I'm asking you to give them to me.
14 Do you understand that?
15 A. When I see the letter, 21st of August, I understand that. The
16 reference I made was to the meeting he had with Colonel Augarde. And I
17 think it would clarify my answer if we could bring that up document.
18 Maybe the Prosecutor could help us. It's the report of
19 Mr. Augarde speaking about guards.
20 Q. The Prosecutor will re-examine you and I will ask you which
21 documents to look at, and I will ask you the questions. Do you
22 understand that? And time is important in this courtroom.
23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may 65 ter 534 be made an exhibit.
24 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D761.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D761 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. KAY: May 65 ter 4599 also be admitted into evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
5 MR. WAESPI: No objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D762.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D762 is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. KAY: The next document we will look at is 65 ter 2989.
10 Q. This is a document dated the 22nd of August, the day following.
11 And it's to the commander of the 142nd Home Guard Regiment. And it's
12 from General Gotovina to that commander, and it's pursuant to the request
13 of the commander of the Knin garrison, General Cermak, for the purpose of
14 faster and more effective organisation of a normal life in the town.
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would be grateful if you would look at these documents rather
18 than other documents whilst I'm questioning you.
19 The order is that the commander of the 142nd temporarily, until
20 further notice, singles out from the 33 of the 142nd Home Guard, and
21 resubordinate to the commander, typed here Knin command post, meaning
22 garrison command, the list of soldiers being enclosed. And they're to
23 report on a certain day, on the 25th, and receive specific tasks. And
24 there we see various related orders. And on page 2 of the English, you
25 can see signed by General Gotovina, who it is to be sent to, including
1 the garrison command, and there's a list of 69 soldiers from Knin and
2 from Kijevo, a list of 78 soldiers.
3 If on the Croatian version we turn to page 2, we will see a list
4 of names. And I'd like to point out the name at number 1, Mojmir Rojcic;
5 the name at 11, Josef Cacic; the name at 16, Bozo Kaligera; and the name
6 at 44, Davor Kovic, which links back to the exhibit I produced earlier
7 dated the 11th August, which was 65 ter 534, marked as D761. We've no
8 need to call it up because we will waste time, but I do that for the
9 Court's benefit.
10 The point I'm making to you here, Mr. Liborius, is that a
11 commander who is unable to subordinate troops to himself is not the
12 commander with the authority and control that you have described.
13 Do you agree?
14 A. I see these documents for the first time. In August -- what is
15 the date, sorry.
16 Q. Last one is the 22nd of August.
17 A. And the request for further personnel would indicate, for me, at
18 this point in time, 2008, that either the tasks are being expanded or, as
19 you would suggest, insufficient personnel are available to the present
20 tasks. Which of the two, I simply cannot decide.
21 Q. You don't see this, because your words "insufficient personnel
22 are available to the present tasks," you don't see this, then, that if he
23 is the commander with authority and control over the troops in the
24 region, this Colonel General could have just issued an order himself to
25 get these conscripts to clean up the streets of Knin.
1 Don't you see that?
2 A. You are inviting me to give my answer here and, as I also said to
3 Mr. Misetic, I'm not second-guessing. In my profession, unless I have an
4 uninterrupted, at my own decision, selected set of documents
5 indicating --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, Mr. Liborius, the question was whether
7 you did agree with Mr. Kay. I do hear that you do not agree. Just tell
8 him, I do not agree. And then, if Mr. Kay wants further explanation, he
9 will ask you. Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that I agreed or not agreed. I said I
11 was not a position to make a decision.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So then you do not agree. That is, either because
13 you cannot make up your mind that is a reason not to agree or because you
14 think you are sufficiently informed to disagree, but you certainly did
15 not agree. That is clear from your answer.
16 Mr. Kay, please proceed.
17 MR. KAY: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
18 Let's look at another document, 65 ter, which was on the proposed
19 Cermak bar table docs, 1736.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps we assign numbers if they've not yet
21 received a number and that would then be P numbers.
22 MR. KAY: I would be grateful if they would be D numbers,
23 Your Honour, in fact, because I'm producing them.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Oh you --
25 MR. KAY: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- it was a mistake on my part.
2 MR. KAY: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. KAY: I'm not being possessive. It's just easier for us to
5 organise our affairs.
6 Q. 65 ter 1736. From the Knin garrison, 12th August, 1995, urgent
7 clearing of the military depot in Plavno with the aim of making the
8 return of the population to this settlement as flexible and fast as
9 possible. I hereby issue the following order. Ordered by
10 General Cermak, the terrain should be cleared, or the facility should be
11 cleared, and he names a man, Lieutenant Andjelko Vuk - apologies for any
12 mispronunciation. It gives what he is responsible for. There's a
13 commission, a Colonel Frkic; Major Gojevic, whom we've seen D --
14 Exhibit D31 was the Deputy Commander of the garrison; and Colonel
15 Emir Teskeredzic. And we can see that this document was sent to those
16 individuals, the assistant commander for logistics of the Knin garrison,
17 and a section of the 306th LOB, Sibenik. That order happens on the 12th
18 August. Let's look --
19 MR. KAY: May this be admitted into evidence, Your Honour.
20 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D763.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D763 is admitted.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. KAY: The next document is 65 ter 2973, dated the 22nd of
1 August, 1995
2 While that is coming up, Your Honour, may 65 ter 2989 be
3 exhibited. I don't think I've done that. That was the list of the names
4 of the soldiers.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
6 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D764.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D764 is admitted.
10 MR. KAY: And I apologise for not doing this in sequence.
11 Q. This document, dated the 22nd of August, is from Colonel Cermak
12 to the 1st Croatian Guard Corps, to the commander, Colonel General Cuk
13 and a request for temporary transfer because of the exceptional need to
14 carry out explosive ordnance, clearing of the terrain and facilities.
15 And we see the name, Major Andjelko Vuk, given a different rank
16 than the previous order. But we see that name.
17 MR. KAY: And I ask the Court to note that.
18 May that be admitted into evidence, Your Honour.
19 MR. WAESPI: No objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D765.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D765 is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. KAY: Thank you.
24 Moving now to 65 ter 3411. This is a document dated the 20th of
25 September, 1995, containing the first name on the Croatian document that
1 should be looked at, Brigadier Emin Teskeredzic. Different spelling but,
2 in fact, evidence will be same person in the previous orders.
3 This is a document from the Knin -- from the commander of the
4 Split Military District, General Gotovina, concerning pyrotechnical
5 restoring of ground and buildings and removal of mines. Page 2 of the
6 English where you're at already. We see the people mobilised, we see
7 that they're to report to the Knin garrison command, to be received by
8 General Cermak and a report to be sent to the Split Military District
9 command, to a particular section. Page 3 of the English concludes that
11 Q. Again, Mr. Liborius, this General that you said had authority and
12 control is unable to subordinate or command particular troops under his
14 Do you agree?
15 A. I haven't seen the documents before. It would indicate that
16 there is a need to have further personnel.
17 Q. But your statements, Mr. Liborius --
18 A. Liborius, please.
19 Q. -- said that you believed, it was your opinion that
20 General Cermak, remaining behind in Knin, was in control of the troops.
21 That's what you said in your statement to the Prosecution.
22 A. Und?
23 Q. Do you, in fact, realize that that statement was wrong, do you
24 accept it, that that was wrong?
25 A. What my statement was based on was my observations, information
1 from meetings, from trustworthy colleagues and those were the facts I saw
2 them on the ground.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, Mr. Kay is asking is whether -- now
4 having seen these documents whether you would reconsider that assessment
5 you made at the time on the basis, as you said. That is simply the
6 question. Could be yes, could be no.
7 Please answer the question.
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 MR. KAY:
10 Q. Let's look at the next document, 65 ter 1791. And it concerns
11 the guarding of facilities, something that you mentioned only 15 minutes
12 ago. And we'll look at how General Cermak was able to deal with it,
13 shall we?
14 It's a document dated the 19 August 1995. It's to the Chief of
15 Staff of the Split Military District. It's from General Cermak, and its
16 subject is securing manpower for safeguard purposes, request. "Since,
17 from the time when Knin was liberated, it is necessary to engage, on a
18 daily basis, a number of people to safeguard the military and civilian
19 facilities in Knin, and as with the consent of the commander of the Split
20 Military District, 25 military conscripts from the 6th Home Guard
21 Regiment ... have temporarily been redeployed and have ... performed
22 security tasks since the 11th of August."
23 And there's a proposal, to secure relief in the following manner
24 and to reassign military conscripts who lived in Knin, in the area before
25 the war to members of that particular company and their action would have
1 the effect on the performance of other necessary tasks within the Knin
2 command post.
3 And then it says: "If the above-stated cannot be implemented,
4 please secure the relief for the manpower of the 6th Home Guard Regiment
5 with ... 25 military conscripts from another unit or with new manpower,
6 from the 6th Home Guard Regiment ..."
7 Page 2, that is signed by General Cermak.
8 You see, he doesn't even have the power to organise himself and
9 take out troops to guard facilities, military and civilian, and, I dare
10 say, your office may have been one of them, without requesting someone
11 else in the military structure to do it.
12 Do you understand that?
13 A. I do see requests for additional personnel, yes.
14 Q. But it's the point of the request, Mr. Liborius, and that answer
15 is disingenuous, isn't it? You know it's the point of the request.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
17 MR. WAESPI: I believe that the witness testified several times
18 that he bases what he says in conclusions on the observations he made at
19 that time on the ground. And I've -- I see where counsel is going. We
20 can gone on for 10, 15, 20 more documents. I'm not -- whether it makes
21 sense to ask the witness for each document again for his conclusions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Now, the conclusions you've given, as you said, Mr. Liborius, on
24 the basis of what you observed at the time are of a rather broad nature,
25 isn't it.
1 Now what Mr. Kay is doing, he is putting to you that there is
2 documentary evidence which Mr. Kay considers to be in contradiction with
3 your assessment at that time. He is putting it to you, because, I think
4 he considers it fair, that before perhaps at a later stage he'll
5 criticise and he will challenge your testimony as we find it in your
6 statement, that he finds it fair that he puts to you at this moment the
7 documents which are, in his assessment, in contradiction with or
8 inconsistent with your testimony.
9 That's what he is doing. I couldn't say that perhaps it could be
10 done a bit more quickly, but apart from that, Mr. Waespi, that is
11 fundamental fairness also to the witness, not only to the accused but
12 also to the witness, because apparently Mr. Kay disagrees with the
13 conclusions and assessments Mr. Liborius made.
14 So if you would, please, carefully look at the documents, if you
15 see something which you say, Well, this -- of course, you're not in a
16 position to check whether -- what is right in the documents, but if you'd
17 just briefly answer Mr. Kay as, Well, on the basis of this I will not
18 change my conclusions or to say, Well, I'm not in a position to give --
19 to have -- I'm not in a position to be able to compare all the documents
20 with what I've seen, so I refrain from an expression on whether I agree
21 or whether I disagree. Then we can move forward rather quickly. I hope
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would prefer that formulation you just gave,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. If that is what you want to say and of
2 course the formulation is -- is well chosen, I do agree with you.
3 THE WITNESS: I think it is excellent.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, it is important that you tell Mr. Kay what
5 your position is. Not the nicest formulation but what is closest to what
6 you consider your answer would be to his question.
7 Mr. Kay, perhaps we proceed.
8 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Your Honour, I am concerned about Mr. Waespi's intervention and
10 I'll just make a brief statement about it.
11 This is important for us and our case. We have seen documents
12 being taken out of context and we are just examining what is behind it.
13 And as Your Honours know, this witness's evidence is challenged in a very
14 strong way as to his conclusions. We're not criticizing him but it's how
15 he came to his point of view and the other evidence in the case that we
16 feel this Tribunal should be able to receive, see, and hear and compare
17 what the witness says about it.
18 Your Honour is quite right --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Your statement is on the record.
20 Let's proceed.
21 MR. KAY: Well, there it is. That's 65 ter 1791. May that be
22 admitted into evidence, please.
23 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number D766, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D766 is admitted.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may I also have admitted 65 ter 3411,
4 which I neglected to do.
5 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As D767, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D767 is also admitted into evidence.
9 MR. KAY: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. KAY: 65 ter 2416, please. A document dated the 19th of
12 October, 1995. It's signed by the chief of the Croatian army Main Staff,
13 General Cervenko. Did you know General Cervenko at all?
14 A. I heard his name.
15 Q. Did you ever meet him?
16 A. Not that I recall at this point in time.
17 Q. Thank you. The document is to the sector for training and
18 schooling. And its subject is carrying out work at the Knin garrison
19 headquarters. And it's an order. And that order, on that date, is for
20 the organisation of 200 soldiers in the military training centre to be
21 sent to Knin garrison HQ, to assist in cleaning the town and to provide
22 the vehicles for them.
23 So, again, showing, Mr. Liborius, that this commander that you
24 said had authority and control in the region, again, couldn't order
25 troops to be subordinated under him. Don't you agree?
1 A. Hmm ... I am not in a position to check whether my position to
2 these documents so I will refrain from expressing whether I agree or not.
3 I kindly reproduce the words of Your Honour, Judge.
4 Q. Are you the sort of man, Mr. Liborius, that even when he has
5 evidence staring him in the face refuses to acknowledge it? Are you
6 someone who has difficulty in accepting when you are wrong?
7 A. Your Honour, is this question relate -- this -- I'm not really
8 sure how I should relate to that question at all. Is that a
9 psychological profile, because then I'm perfectly happy to take a
10 psychological test.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's not -- Mr. Kay, as a matter of fact, although
12 he does that in the language lawyers do use in court, actually asks you
13 whether you find it difficult, if the documentary evidence would
14 contradict what you said, whether, in general, you have difficulties in
15 admitting that. If that would be the case, please say yes; if that is
16 not the case, please say no.
17 At the same time, please would you first answer the question.
18 THE WITNESS: In order to answer that question, let just play
19 with some ideas that it has been possible for me to hide my innermost
20 personal characters as a senior Danish civil servant for more than 20
21 years. That would be very, very special.
22 So I do not consider myself the sort of man that, even when he
23 has evidence staring him in his face refusing to acknowledge it. No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, would you refrain from making this
25 courtroom a bit of a debating room. And Mr. Kay, I know the art of
1 advocacy. There are also limits to that. Some questions might not
2 really assist the Chamber --
3 MR. KAY: I have understood, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- in making determinations, so --
5 Mr. Liborius, Mr. Kay is going to put his next question to you.
6 MR. KAY: Can I make that document an exhibit?
7 MR. WAESPI: No objections, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D768.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Yes, Mr. Liborius, you want to say something. At the same time,
12 you will have an opportunity at the end of your testimony to add anything
13 that has been -- you said so. Okay. Then 15 seconds.
14 THE WITNESS: The first question I was put by Mr. Misetic when I
15 came here was: Why did I start taking notes in this room? How is that
16 question to be interpreted, as an insult?
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, it is not to be interpreted as an insult. And
18 if there is any question which would be inadmissible, Mr. Waespi, as he
19 has shown several times, will object against the question. And if you
20 have listened well, then I said something about the questions one minute
21 ago to Mr. Kay. So, please, rely on Mr. Waespi, a bit on me as well, and
22 the professionality of Defence counsel. Let's not further discuss the
24 Mr. Kay, your next question.
25 MR. KAY: Thank you. May we have 65 ter 535, please.
1 This is a document dated the 11th of August, by General Cermak to
2 the Ministry of Defence, transport and technical administration. It's a
3 request for vehicles for the purpose of organizing work in the area of
4 the Knin garrison command. We request the following vehicles be provided
5 urgently. And then there's a request for vehicle for food transport,
6 pick-up truck, refrigerator truck. We can see the sorts of material
7 being sought and asking for them to be delated to the Knin garrison
9 So an example there of where the commander can't even requisition
10 his own vehicles from anywhere. Do you see that? Do you agree with
12 A. I see that. I, with regard to whether I agree, will say I'm not
13 in a position to check -- in this -- the formulation of Your Honour, the
14 Judge. I will use the same phrase as before, Your Honour. So I will
15 refrain from expressing whether I agree or not.
16 Q. So you don't have an opinion on it, is that right? Looking at
17 this document here and the sequence of the other documents doesn't cause
18 you to doubt anything that you have said before in your statements?
19 A. I will repeat the sentence from before, so I will refrain from
20 expressing whether I agree or not.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That was not the question. The question was now,
22 whether what you see at this moment, whether that creates any doubt in
23 your mind as far as the conclusions are concerned you have drawn in your
24 examination-in-chief and in your statements. That was the question.
25 THE WITNESS: I have not changed my position.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
2 MR. KAY:
3 Q. Were you shown any documentary evidence such as this? Was the
4 background to the case explained to you at all?
5 A. I have not seen these documents.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. KAY: Could we make that document an exhibit, please,
8 Your Honour.
9 MR. WAESPI: No objection, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D769.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D769 is admitted.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. KAY:
15 Q. I have a whole series of documents here relating to some
16 UN vehicles that were taken, stolen, from the UN, and Croatian army
17 soldiers were seen driving them. I'm not going to go into them. But
18 were you aware of that issue, that there had been a theft of many UN
19 vehicles that General Forand complained about and complained to
20 General Cermak.
21 A. There was an issue of vehicles. I think I remember that.
22 Q. Did you know that, in fact, General Cermak couldn't deal with
23 that matter. He had to write to a higher authority and get help for
24 those vehicles to be looked for. Were you aware of that?
25 A. No.
1 Q. If you had been aware of it, wouldn't it indicate to you that he
2 didn't have the authority and control that you've claimed he had from
3 your knowledge at the time?
4 A. The indication as to control of the vehicles, I can come up with
5 a lot of speculations, who could be having a wish to maintain these
7 Q. Here we are. So within the structure of the Croatian military,
8 do you know where the garrison command would be positioned, where it
9 would be placed?
10 A. Outside the operational command.
11 Q. And would you be aware of to whom it was subordinated, the
12 garrison command?
13 A. I would ask if I had any doubts.
14 Q. Did you ask anyone about the garrison command, as to where it
15 fitted within the Croatian military structure at the time?
16 A. The information from General Cermak did not lead me or my
17 colleagues, as I believe, to ask such a question.
18 Q. So is the answer to that no?
19 A. I did not answer -- ask.
20 Q. Well, there we are.
21 Within the civil authorities of the Croatian republic, did you
22 have any idea of the hierarchy controlling the civil police?
23 A. Are you talking names or are you talking structures?
24 Q. Structures.
25 A. The chiefs of police, in their information to me, said that they
1 were subordinated to higher authorities in the civilian administrative,
2 corresponding to the civilian administrative structure.
3 Q. Would that be the Ministry of Interior?
4 A. The police was, to my knowledge, subordinated to the Ministry of
6 MR. KAY: Should we just produce P500 on the screen.
7 Q. This is a document already in evidence showing the organisation
8 of the Ministry of Interior, and the structure of the civil police.
9 A. Could we enlarge it, please.
10 Q. Of course. First of all, the minister of interior, Mr. Jarnjak.
11 Were you aware of him being in that position?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Going further down this hierarchy, can you see --
14 MR. KAY: Can we scroll down a bit please. Thank you very much.
15 Just there.
16 Q. Can you see Ivica Cetina who was chief of the Zadar-Knin police
18 A. Yes, can I see his name.
19 Q. Were you aware of him?
20 A. Yes, I was aware of the Zadar-Knin police administration.
21 Q. The question was were you aware of him.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you meet him?
24 A. The name rings a bell, but I don't think so.
25 Q. Moving further down, Knin-Kotar police administration,
1 Mr. Cedo Romanic. Did he ever meet him?
2 A. I was in the Knin police station waiting for a meeting with the
3 chief of police, and as we were waiting, I believe that he came, had a
4 short but unproductive talk, so Mr. Zvonko Gambiroza was the main part.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, you give an answer -- the question
6 simply was did you ever meet him and you give all kind of detail --
7 THE WITNESS: Technically, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you just give the short answers. I mean you are
9 concerned about time. So are we. So whether Mr. Kay is interested to
10 know the date or who else was there or whether the meeting was
11 productive -- if you just give a short answer, then Mr. Kay will put his
12 question --
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. KAY:
16 Q. The bottom line we see the names of commanders of various police
17 stations. First of all, did you visit any or all of those police
18 stations. Just say any or all; don't give me the detail.
19 A. Any or all, yeah.
20 Q. Well, that -- was that all of them, did you visit?
21 A. Gracac, Donji Lapac, Knin, Obrovac, Lovinac, Korenica, no.
22 Q. So some you visited --
23 A. To the best of my knowledge, yeah.
24 Q. Some you visited; others you didn't. Did you know the commander
25 of Knin police station, Mr. Mijic?
1 A. I had heard his name. I don't know him.
2 Q. Did you appreciate that there was a police station commander in
3 each of those places and that that was subordinated to the Knin-Kotar
4 police administration?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that that, in turn, was subordinated to the Zadar-Knin police
7 administration as well?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And so it went up the chain to the minister of interior himself.
10 Did you understand that there was a strict hierarchical system?
11 A. Yes, I saw it.
12 Q. Did you know that that police system, as the civil authority, was
13 put into action straight away from the 4th of August, by the minister of
14 interior and his assistant ministers? Did you appreciate that?
15 A. Yes, I saw the police in their locations right after.
16 Q. And did you appreciate that the police station at Knin, the
17 Knin-Kotar police station was opened on the 6th of August by the minister
18 of interior, Mr. Jarnjak?
19 A. I don't know who opened it. I know that it was opened.
20 Q. And did you appreciate that the Zadar-Knin police administration
21 was immediately running the affairs of the civil police in a supervisory
22 aspect to the Knin-Kotar police administration?
23 A. That corresponds to my observation in the field.
24 Q. We've seen many documents in this Court that evidence that,
25 Mr. Liborius, but I'm asking you these questions because in your
1 statement, you said that Mr. Cermak was in control until the elections,
2 and that he was in control of the law and order until the elections had
3 taken place.
4 Do you remember saying that in your statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, have you got any note of him saying that, from any meeting?
7 A. The information from General Cermak to the ECMM was dealt with in
8 some of the reports.
9 Q. I asked if you had a note. You can just say yes or no. And if
10 you don't --
11 A. I would have to look.
12 Q. Because I haven't seen that --
13 A. I don't have it right here.
14 Q. I haven't seen a note and I would have expected if there had been
15 a note that that would have been brought to certainly the Court's
16 attention and my attention, from any document that you had. But it's not
17 there, is it?
18 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has answered that question, Mr. Kay.
19 Let's proceed.
20 MR. KAY:
21 Q. Why I'm dealing with it is for this reason: That it is simply
22 not a fact based on any truth. Do you understand me? Because it --
23 there was no question of elections affecting the authority of the civil
24 police. The Croatian government had a system in place, up and running,
25 right from the start. They had their own control of the police within
1 the Ministry of Interior. Cermak was nothing to do with that.
2 So would you like to revise your recollection of this matter?
3 Would you like to think about it again, whether it was ever said in that
4 way at all?
5 A. I don't need to revise my recollection of my monitoring
7 Q. But do you see how it doesn't make any sense for him to have said
8 that? Do you see that, how it would be totally illogical?
9 A. How I see sense -- I would like to give you two examples so that
10 you see how I see sense, if you ask me about sense.
11 Q. No, I'm asking about the logic of this statement, whether you can
12 see it as not actually fitting any of the political structures,
13 governmental structures. You told us had you a reasonable knowledge. I
14 asked you that at the start. You said you had had training in it, that
15 you understood it reasonably.
16 A. You see, when General Cermak met with EU's most senior people, he
17 was given the expression of being the point of contact for law and order.
18 Let me just explain to you - and you have taken considerable time
19 up of my patience to explain how the system was. Let me explain how the
20 system looked like and I want to bring two examples, only two examples.
21 Q. I would --
22 A. One very low.
23 Q. -- I would just appreciate it if you'd --
24 A. -- and one very high.
25 Q. -- just answer the question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Briefly. Very briefly.
2 THE WITNESS: One very low example, experienced by myself, out in
3 the field where a -- on the 1st of September, 1995, I am detained by --
4 MR. KAY:
5 Q. What date?
6 A. 1st of September, 1995, I am detained at a little after 1415. I
7 make a phone call to the operations centre, the ECMM operations centre,
8 saying I am kept. There is a call made, I believe from the operations
9 centre to General Cermak, and very short after, I can proceed. That was
10 the low example.
11 The high example.
12 Q. Stop there.
13 A. No. I was given two examples.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I gave Mr. Liborius, briefly, the second
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. There was a Troika visit - we are now on 19
17 October. The Troika visit is the expression when the three EU
18 ambassadors from the presiding EU country, the next and the third visit.
19 This is Carl Bildt's people in the field. Now Mr. Misetic argued with a
20 letter from Mr. Mate Granic that it was important.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. You give --
22 THE WITNESS: He was then discussing matters of security, matters
23 of return, matters of property lists and so on. He is selected by the
24 Croatian government to be the point of contact when the EU's entire power
25 structure comes to town.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was your second example.
2 Mr. Kay, please proceed.
3 MR. KAY:
4 Q. And I don't disagree with point of contact, by the way.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. But the question I was asking you, which seems a long way away,
7 but let's just go back to your two examples and I will have a look at
8 them with you.
9 Let's go to the 1st of September. Do you know where Mr. Cermak
10 was on the 1st of September?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. He wasn't in Knin. He was in Zagreb.
13 A. As I said, a phone call was made, I believe, from the OPS.
14 Q. So you believe a phone call was made to someone and then someone
15 speaks to someone and you get released?
16 A. We -- as I said before --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, if we have any detailed further information
18 about it we'd like to hear; if not, let's move on.
19 Let's not start talking about how logical it is to phone someone,
20 either on a cell phone or whether any satellite phone, or whether the
21 phone call was long or short. Let's move on, unless there is real
22 information more than what the witness has told us.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. KAY: Sorry, Your Honour, I was challenging the witness on
25 his thought process but I will leave that for later argument, with the
1 Court's leave, but the Court knows it is a matter which I challenge.
2 Q. Let's just look at the freedom of movement that you say is so
3 important on -- on this matter. First of all, that doesn't indicate,
4 that fact, that there is any control or authority over troops, does it?
5 A. If a radio relayed or a telephone instruction is relayed that
6 really does indicate control.
7 Q. Do you know who was spoken to when the radio contact was made?
8 A. As I said earlier on, we were issued a set of phone numbers,
9 either to phone General Cermak or people in his staff.
10 As I said, I phoned, and I believe that I reproduce information
11 from yesterday, I phoned my operations office, and they took control of
12 the matter, contacting either General Cermak or his staff. I received an
13 information return, everything is okay, and I could proceed. That does
14 indicate some sort of control.
15 Q. In relation to freedom of movement, did you have any dealings
16 with a Brigadier Plestina in Zagreb
17 A. Could we see his name, please?
18 Q. P-l-e-s-t-i-n-a?
19 A. Plestina in Zagreb
20 Q. We've heard evidence about this before. Brigadier Plestina was
21 the general in the Croatian army who was the commander of the liaison
22 officers with the UN and the ECMM. Did you know about him?
23 A. I heard his name in that connection, yes. I did not meet him
25 Q. Did you have his phone number?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did he make himself available to you as a contact in any way?
3 A. I believe that as it was delegated down, and a general,
4 Mr. Gotovina, gave his phone number, that would suffice.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The answer, therefore, is simply no, isn't it.
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please just answer the question.
8 No, no, no further debates, no further discussions. This is an
10 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
11 MR. KAY:
12 Q. Would it be correct to say that the ECMM was not included within
13 various orders concerning freedom of movement in the Knin region but they
14 were documents that only affected UNCRO. Is that right?
15 A. That is not correct.
16 Q. Did you have a specific freedom of movement document referring to
17 you as the ECMM and giving you freedom of movement?
18 A. The freedom of movement cards as it was referred to, was it
19 yesterday, I think by Mr. Misetic in the ECMM report, the go-anywhere
20 card, that is the first example. The second example of an order that
21 concerned ECMM was that Philippe Augarde in his meeting with
22 General Cermak were granted -- were promised freedom of movement.
23 So that was, I think, an order.
24 Q. No. Did you have a piece of paper issued by General Cermak or
25 anyone else dictating that you had freedom of movement or restricting
1 your freedom of movement?
2 A. I remembered we had the card. It was the size of the -- it was
3 called the go-anywhere card ensuring freedom of movement or at least
5 Q. Who issued that card?
6 A. I don't have the card right at my disposal here. I am sure,
7 however, that it could be obtained perhaps from the ECMM.
8 Q. I'm asking who issued it. Was it a document issued by the
9 Croatian government from Zagreb
10 A. It was a Zagreb
11 knowledge -- memory.
12 Q. Right. So the card or document you were using to travel around
13 the region was not issued by General Cermak.
14 A. No.
15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment.
16 Is it 4.00, our break?
17 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I -- yesterday, I think I -- I
18 gave a list of times and I asked this afternoon to get it back. I think
19 it was ten minutes past 4.00.
20 MR. KAY: I'm grateful to Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. KAY:
23 Q. So when you were stopped at a check-point, you would produce that
24 authorisation to the particular troops on the point to say that you were
25 entitled to pass. Is that right?
1 A. Sometimes, yes.
2 Q. And if you say that if you had a problem, you would then phone
3 General Cermak's office to try and get round your problem. Is that
5 A. Typical instances where the card was produced but did not solve
6 the situation, we would phone either General Cermak or his staff, using
7 the phone numbers given to us by him, and that would usually solve the
8 problem, resulting in instructions to the local authorities at the
9 check-point to grant us freedom of movement.
10 Q. Well, they`re hardly -- just granting you an absolute freedom of
11 movement, what's happening here is that the unit who stopped you is
12 checking on whether you are able to move around the country, aren't they,
13 to move past that check-point. It's as simple as that.
14 A. I remember a couple of instances where it was not the unit who
15 stopped us that did the checking. I did the checking with staff of
16 Mr. Cermak's, and then, sometimes, handed the phone to the check-point
17 personnel and that solved the problem.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, I guess the impression that you did
19 not understand the question well.
20 The question by Mr. Kay was, I think - but please correct me
21 Mr. Kay - is whether such a telephone call and being let through, whether
22 that was an expression of a total freedom of movement or just a decision
23 that you could pass that check-point.
24 That was, I think, the question.
25 MR. KAY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 THE WITNESS: It was a decision at that individual point.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. KAY: Thank you.
5 Q. And you never actually spoke to General Cermak yourself on the
6 phone, did you?
7 A. I remember I had notes where it says, Speaking to General Cermak
8 solved the problem.
9 Q. Is that to the office or to General Cermak as an individual?
10 A. When he gave me his phone number, I think that the second or
11 third instance of restriction of movement I got him, and it solved the
13 Q. That phone number was not his mobile phone number, was it? It
14 was the garrison command number.
15 A. The number I have noted in my diary was 021375653.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Can we turn to P364, please, and turn to the second page of this
18 document, produced in evidence through General Forand. It concerns the
19 12th of August, 1995. And if you could go to the bottom of the page you
20 will see that there was a meeting between the commander of Sector South -
21 that's General Forand - Brigadier Plestina, head of the office of UN and
22 ECMM. We can see a discussion that took place outlined at A; we can see
23 it also at B.
24 MR. KAY: May we turn to page 3, and point C, where there is a
25 discussion between General Forand about freedom of movement and
1 Brigadier Plestina pledged full freedom of movement but indicated other
2 issues were outside of his competence.
3 Were you present at that meeting of the Brigadier at Sector South
4 with General Forand?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Were you aware of that meeting?
7 A. I was aware that General Forand had a series of meetings to
8 discuss freedom of movement.
9 Q. Were you aware that Brigadier Plestina was stating what the terms
10 of freedom of movement would be to the UNCRO forces?
11 A. I know that Brigadier Plestina was dealing with the freedom of
12 movement issues, yes.
13 Q. And he also - and we've seen evidence of this in documents
14 produced by General Forand which we have no need to labour on here. I
15 refer them --
16 MR. KAY: Your Honours, D318, Exhibit D319, and Exhibit D321.
17 Q. -- was telling the UN forces whether they had freedom of movement
18 or not. Were you aware of that?
19 A. Do we miss something on the screen?
20 JUDGE ORIE: No -- well, whether there is anything on the screen
21 missing, could you please answer the question put by Mr. Kay.
22 THE WITNESS: Could I have the question again, please.
23 MR. KAY:
24 Q. Of course. The Court is aware through other evidence of a series
25 of meetings between Brigadier Plestina and the UN Chief of Staff in
2 Brigadier Plestina was telling the UN how their movements were restricted
3 and what freedom of movement they would have.
4 Were you aware of that?
5 A. I was aware of contacts between General Forand and Plestina. The
6 specific meeting there, no.
7 Q. No, it's whether he was telling the UN commander what their
8 restrictions of movement and freedom of movement would be.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did Brigadier Plestina also, with the ECMM, similarly dictate
11 what any restrictions of movement or freedoms of movement would be?
12 A. I would imagine that the headquarter ECMM would be in contact. I
13 don't have the specific information myself.
14 Q. And at that level, none of that was to do with General Cermak,
15 was it?
16 A. As it was put to me locally, General Cermak would be the
17 authority at our level to whom we should address those questions.
18 Q. And who told you that? Was that General or Colonel Augarde?
19 A. Colonel Augarde, I believe, had that issue in his first meeting,
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I'm looking at the clock.
22 MR. KAY: I have got one short question to finish this subject,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please not again -- not a two-minute question.
25 MR. KAY: I will head anything off at the pass if I feel it is
1 getting too far.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please put that question.
3 MR. KAY:
4 Q. So it simply comes to this, you're stopped at a check-point, you
5 need help, your pass comes from a ministry in Zagreb, and your point of
6 contact who helps you out, you telephone the office of General Cermak,
7 you may or may not speak to him, and then something is said and you're
8 allowed on your way. Simple as that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Very well.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break.
12 We will resume at 25 minutes to 5.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 4.15 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 4.37 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, please proceed.
16 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 May we have 65 ter 2971, please.
18 Q. This is a document dated the 22nd of August, 1995, from the
19 military police administration -- military police department. And it's
20 sent to the Split
21 garrison command, Colonel Cermak -- Colonel General Cermak for
22 information. And it concerns the security of the Knin garrison
23 commander, General Cermak, on the basis of analysis and with a view to
24 continued protection for the Knin garrison command commander,
25 General Cermak, while stationary and in motion. An order is made that
1 the 72nd Military Police Battalion commander shall organise the task of
2 protection of General Cermak, using men from the military police Knin 7th
3 Company. A meeting would be held.
4 And then on the next page, page 3 in the English, various other
5 directions and it comes from Colonel Kozic.
6 And so this is an order that even in terms of the military
7 police, General Cermak had insufficient authority even to order someone
8 for his personal protection or a number of men for his personal
9 protection, and that had to be a task ordered by the separate part of the
10 military police structure.
11 Do you see that, Mr. Liborius?
12 A. I see the document.
13 Q. And do you understand the significance of a document such as
14 that, concerning the command and control of the military police?
15 A. The command and control of military police, in general, would be
17 Q. Do you understand the significance, though, in terms of the
18 actual authority of General Cermak, if he is unable to command a military
19 police battalion to provide for his own security, that company, to carry
20 out the task, even being in Knin, the 7th Company. Do you appreciate the
21 significance of the restrictions on his authority?
22 A. I do not recall having associated General Cermak with command of
23 military police. Nor was it brought to me in my monitoring duties.
24 Q. No, it's the significance of it, in terms of authority. It's the
25 last time I will ask the question because you have written statements
1 giving your views, opinions, how you believe things to be, and here I am
2 putting a fact in front of you and asking for you -- if you're here to
3 assist the Court to do so.
4 If you're here to assist the Judges, all of us, please think
5 about it and answer.
6 A. I have thought about the issue of command of the military police,
7 and I, never in my monitoring capabilities, and I believe that that is
8 what my testimony is about, expect -- expected that the military police
9 would be under General Cermak's command. I don't think that in the
10 regular army structures it is so, so I don't see that as being a
11 particular Croatian problem, as you would indicate.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. KAY: If we can go do D281, and may the last document, while
14 this is being called up, be admitted into evidence, please, Your Honour.
15 MR. WAESPI: No objections, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D770.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D770.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. KAY: The next document, when it appears on the screen, is an
21 order for an active defence, issued by the Split Military District
22 commander, dated 9th of August, 1995. We're not going to look at all the
23 pages of this document, because the Judges have seen it already. And
24 what I want the usher -- sorry, the clerk of the Court to do is to turn
25 to the last page of the document.
1 And if we could blow that up. I think that that's a blurred copy
3 Q. But that is an organigram of the organisational chart of the
4 Split Military District and you knew the Split Military District was the
5 particular forces that you were dealing with in the Knin region. Isn't
6 that right?
7 A. Forces under Split
8 Q. Yes. You were aware the Split
9 the particular forces in the area that you were dealing with?
10 A. We were dealing with a host of forces.
11 Q. Just tell me if you're aware of the Split Military District, yes
12 or no.
13 A. I am aware of the Split Military District, yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Fine. In this organigram here, which sets out the
15 composition of the forces and their structure, there isn't actually
16 within it the Knin ZM, the Knin garrison command. All right? Do you see
18 A. I'm sorry to say I can't see the details. But if you say there
19 is no Knin ZM, I'll take that.
20 Q. Take it from me. And if we can go to the previous page as to
21 where this document is delivered to, we will see those who receive the
22 particular plan, or strategy. I don't know whether you recognise any of
23 those military brigades or battalions or any of the detail within it. Do
25 A. I would just, in the interests of time, say 72nd MP battalion
1 strikes my eyes immediately.
2 Q. Yes. We've just looked at one of their orders.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Do you also notice the fact that the Knin ZM isn't included
5 within that order?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, aware of the fact that this is a poorly
9 reproduced organigram, the Defence have magnified one and it is at
10 2D05-0009. It's the same last page, but reproduced through technology in
11 a clear form which we asked to be admitted as an exhibit linking it, as
12 we do and for the record, with Exhibit 281.
13 May it be admitted into evidence, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
15 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number D771, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D771 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. KAY:
20 Q. Why I'm asking you these questions, Mr. Liborius, is because it
21 is to do with the authority and command and control of troops. You said
22 earlier that you were here just as -- about ECMM, but you're not. Your
23 evidence is being adduced by the Prosecution through you on particular
24 issues. Do you understand? My questioning doesn't confine myself just
25 to the ECMM but to matters that are relevant to this trial, do you
1 understand? That is why I'm asking you these questions.
2 A. I think that I certainly also relate to issues outside the ECMM.
3 Q. Yes.
4 MR. KAY: Could we look at 65 ter 547, please.
5 Q. This is a document dated the 11th of August, 1995, issued by
6 General Gotovina. It concerns the Split Military District command
7 Sajkovici forward command post. And is an order on the basis of an
8 arisen need to regroup the troops on the front line, establishing zones
9 of responsibility and to ensure efficient command. And we see there an
10 order about the 12th of August that the commands of the following
11 temporary formations ceasing to function, their place is identified, and
12 then commands shall be established and begin functioning, identifying the
13 particular regiments, brigades?
14 And then in 3, on the 12th of August, 1995, the Split
15 Military District commands Zadar forward command post shall become the
16 primary place from where to command all units of the Split
17 Military District. We see on page of the English, in paragraph 4, a
18 forward command post of the Split Military District command shall be set
19 up in Knin. And it -- the order is made to begin preparations for that
20 transfer and a date is given.
21 The Chief of Staff of the Split Military District command and
22 commanders of the directly subordinated units responsible for the
23 implementation of this order.
24 You will see there a list of the particular brigades, battalions,
25 the Operational Groups identified in the order. You will also see
1 garrisons, and you will see the garrisons of Zadar, Sinj, and Split
2 included is the Knin garrison, ZM.
3 Do you understand what I mean by that, do you now, about the
4 Knin ZM? The Knin Zborno Mjesto being the garrison command. Do you
5 understand that, Mr. Liborius?
6 A. The inner workings of the document that I have not seen before I
7 will not, I think, comment in detail, but I do see the list of garrisons.
8 Q. It's a highly significant document, Mr. Liborius, as a military
9 man, you would know that, wouldn't you?
10 A. The significance of the document you have produced, I don't think
11 that I will, at this point in time, and on the screen, venture a comment
12 with this very short time.
13 Q. Unable to comment on these documents then, as you are, or as
14 you -- you say, would you agree that the conclusions drawn by you and the
15 opinions mentioned by you in your statements to the Prosecution
16 concerning the authority of General Cermak could be wrong.
17 A. The conclusions that are mentioned in my papers I stand by, as
18 they are the result of my observations, my meetings in the field. You
19 would suggest to play down the General Gotovina -- Cermak to merely a
20 clerk. What I observed, and I described that in my conclusions, was
21 another person. My question, in my own eyes now, is if you play him so
22 much down, why on earth would he have meetings? With not only ECMM, UN
23 teams as well. It wouldn't make any sense. But that was not what I
24 observed in the field.
25 Q. Because, quite simply, as you said, he was a point of contact.
1 Did you have any other generals' or commanders' phone numbers?
2 A. Not in my immediate possession.
3 Q. Were you given any other generals' or commanders' phone numbers?
4 A. I was given the phone numbers of some commanders, the Benkovac
5 commander, but I was not given the phone numbers of other generals.
6 Q. The Benkovac commander of what?
7 A. The meeting mentioned in one of the previous ECMM reports.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit,
11 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number D772, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
15 MR. KAY: And may we --
16 JUDGE ORIE: And it should -- I should admit it into evidence.
17 That's what I'm doing now. D772 is admitted into evidence.
18 The previous one as well, that misses on the transcript but I'm
19 to be blamed for that myself by speaking too quickly.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 65 ter 3460, please.
23 Q. This is a document dated the 23rd of August, 1995, from the
24 Split Military District forward command post. And it's about the
25 engagement of forces for the Knin 95 task. And it's an order to provide
1 prompt and full security for the journey of the president of the Republic
2 through the zone of responsibility of the Split Military District, and
3 the visit of the president was something that you noted in your notes.
4 This order, if we turn to page 2, concerns the various units and
5 forces, to be used for the security of this matter in and around Knin.
6 So a -- an operation on the ground, in Knin, requiring troops to
7 perform a particular task and function of a non-operational character.
8 Do you understand that?
9 Go to page 3, 4, if we just flick through this document, it is
10 all in those terms.
11 And we get to the end of the document. And take it from me, the
12 garrison command and General Cermak is nowhere to be seen in this
13 document. All right? And this document goes to Operation Group North,
14 South, and, on the last page, the 204th and the 113th. A non-operational
15 matter like those other matters we have seen, Mr. Liborius, and nothing
16 to do with General Cermak and the Knin garrison command to order those
17 troops to undertake that task.
18 Again, doesn't that indicate your conclusions as being erroneous
19 and not based on fact?
20 A. You highlight the tasks associated with this particular train
21 ride. Where they'd say operational or non-operational, large
22 undertaking, I will not comment.
23 What I do note is that in my own assessment of General Gotovina
24 and General Cermak, I did hold General Gotovina higher, so to speak, than
25 General Gotovina -- General Cermak.
1 Q. That wasn't my question.
2 A. Your -- your use of this particular document, I think, actually
3 supports that, but I will, as I said before, refrain from speculating at
4 this point in time over the whole corpus of the documents.
5 I will reproduce, to the best of my knowledge, what I saw as the
6 security structures, the law and order structures, and what I felt in
8 Q. We've heard your evidence and that is why I'm asking questions
9 about it and challenging those points of views.
10 MR. KAY: May this document be made an exhibit, please,
11 Your Honour.
12 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number D773, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D773 is admitted.
16 MR. KAY: The last one and I have taken a selection here to
17 inform you of this, Mr. Liborius, of different themes that have been
18 brought in by you, and the next one I turn to is communications because
19 that, you said, was significant.
20 MR. KAY: So can we produce 2D01-0040.
21 Q. This is a document called the communications plan,
22 Military District Split
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. KAY: It was the first page I wanted, which is just to show
25 communications plan ZP Split-Knin.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. KAY: Doesn't matter. I can still deal with this, whatever.
3 Q. This is the communications plan and perhaps the clerk of the
4 court could just scroll through the pages that we have there, if this is
5 the first page that has come up in the electronic system, and just scroll
6 through them one by one. Ah, that's what I look for. Just to identify
7 the document. That's my page 1.
8 Maybe we can just turn to the next page to see the date, Knin,
9 13th of August, 1995. Yes. And it's the list of documents contained in
10 the communications plan of the Split Military District. And we go to the
11 next page. It gives the communications centres. Command communications.
12 Nine of 18, it shows the code-names of the various Operational Groups of
13 South. 11 of 18 shows identification codes for the ZP Military District
14 Split offices.
15 You probably know what I'm going to be saying, there is no
16 mention here of the Knin garrison command, Knin ZM, General Cermak,
17 anything at all.
18 If we go to 15 of 18, work plan, various units we will have seen
19 before. It's a lengthy document, but the point arising from your
20 evidence is of significance. We have no need to go further through it.
21 The Bench can look at in their own leisure.
22 You mention communications as being a very important item to show
23 command because when you were let you through a check-point, you thought
24 that that gave an indication of how command and control, which could have
25 led to General Cermak, proved your point. What do you say to the fact
1 that the Knin ZM, Zborno Mjesto, General Cermak's garrison, isn't even in
2 the communications plan for the Military District.
3 What do you say to that?
4 A. It could come as no surprise to you -- it would come as no
5 surprise to you that I would have the same position. What I asked myself
6 when I have seen all the documents you have shown me is that
7 General Gotovina, then, is frequently the signer of the documents. That
8 would suggest that, then, he is the one having the command --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, Mr. Liborius. There's no need to
10 dwell upon matters as if Mr. Cermak is not mentioned who else would --
11 that's not part of the question. And I ask you to refrain from further
12 comments apart from answering the question.
13 THE WITNESS: I will answer then. But in our meeting on the 27th
14 of October, General Gotovina pointed to General Cermak to answer for the
15 questions who were arrested. So there is this link between --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, the question is about communications
17 and whether Mr. Cermak appears anywhere in the documents related to
18 communications. That was the question.
19 THE WITNESS: I take it that if Mr. Kay has perused the document
20 and General Cermak is not in the document, I will rely on Mr. Kay's
21 perusal of the document.
22 We can walk around this for a long time. What I'm doing is
23 that --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, you're supposed to answer the
25 questions and I see that you are taking great effort in doing that.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
2 MR. KAY:
3 Q. You see, the point is that you have presented a conclusion. I
4 have put significant documents to you that have caused you to challenge
5 in your own mind your conclusion about General Cermak. That's right,
6 isn't it? That's what you want to admit?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Very well.
9 A. I don't challenge my conclusions. What I do is that I produce,
10 reproduce, each time General Cermak pops up in my monitoring activity,
11 sometimes together with General Gotovina. When these two --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you answered the last question of
13 Mr. Kay --
14 MR. KAY: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- and he will certainly put his next question to
16 you now.
17 MR. KAY: Thank you very much. May that be admitted as an
18 exhibit, please, Your Honour.
19 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D774.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D774 is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. KAY:
24 Q. Did you have access to any of the articles or interviews
25 concerning General Cermak in the Croatian press at the time?
1 A. Press reviews were usually done by either the Croatian assistance
2 team or -- located in ECMM headquarters in Zagreb or our local
4 The --
5 Q. The question was did you --
6 A. Have access to any of the articles? I'm in the middle of answer.
7 Q. Well, yes or no, did you read any -- any newspaper interviews
8 concerning General Cermak's job as described by him at the time.
9 A. Newspaper articles specifically on General Cermak, no.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. KAY: For the Court's reference, it's D37 of significance
13 Q. The topic I'm going to deal with you now which is his actual job,
14 what he was actually doing, how he was spending his time and, again, I'm
15 going to put a description to you and I'd like you to consider it and
16 give answer to the Court.
17 His job, put simply, was to restore normal life to Knin. To
18 clear up the town, get the town working, and deal with problems that the
19 UN faced in relation to their presence in Sector South. As simple as
21 Do you accept that?
22 A. He did say that he should assist in restoring normal life. He
23 did say that we could bring it to his attention if we saw problems in the
24 field, security problems, looting and burning and that stuff, and
25 General Gotovina said that security measures, who had been arrested and
1 so on, we should turn to General Cermak.
2 Restoring normal life is quite a wide word.
3 Q. Should we look at what he was doing then, because that might
4 indicate what his job was, don't you agree? For instance, if you're
5 fixing the water, the electricity, cleaning the streets, it doesn't look
6 as though your job is that of being a military commander, does it?
7 A. If you are handling issues of arrest and security guards then you
8 are handling security. Doesn't it look like that?
9 Q. So your mind is this, that if one detail of security guards are
10 sent to your office, that that is sufficient to demonstrate command and
11 control over all the troops in the Sector South region? Is that honestly
12 your judgement? Is that how you base your judgement?
13 A. I think that I have given a host of examples of how security
14 matters were brought to General Cermak. What we observed in the field
15 was that he was designated as the person that you should meet, I think
16 also human rights action teams and others, I believe. So if I understand
17 your words right, that we should look at what he was doing, well, we were
18 actually looking at what he was doing. We observed it. And he did
19 attend, in many, many, meetings not only with ECMM but also with UN, to
20 those questions. Whether he was attending to garbage cleaning, as you
21 said, or cleaning the streets, electricity fixing, on top of that, well,
22 I will not challenge that. I will not challenge -- I had not -- I will
23 not challenge that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, for various purposes, I think we should
25 stop a bit earlier than 6.00, if only for the traffic jams on the Dutch
2 Could you wrap up in a couple of minutes? Could you find a
3 suitable moment to conclude for the day.
4 MR. KAY: Thank you.
5 Next document I'll produce is 65 ter 236. And it's the report
6 from this Major Jonjic, whom we have seen General Cermak needed some
7 assistants to have working for him as a logistics officer.
8 Q. And this is Major Jonjic's report issued at some time, we don't
9 have a date on it, but a description of his various tasks and what he was
10 doing, revitalizing the age-old Croatian city. Seek out water, dealt
11 with the hospital. Page 2 deals with the trains. Provides cars to the
12 hospital. Page 3, dirt, epidemiological condition. Don't ask me to
13 spell it. And arranging a welcome for the president, et cetera. So a
14 survey there of his particular work and he was describing himself as the
15 assistant to the garrison commander. So at that level.
16 Do you understand?
17 A. Assistant to the garrison commander.
18 Q. Yeah. Dealing with cleaning the streets, getting the
19 kindergarten going, the hospital, all these basic tasks. Were you aware
20 that that was the backbone of the work of General Cermak in Knin?
21 A. As I said, General Cermak himself said, I'm responsible for
22 bringing back law and order to Knin. Order would perhaps also entail all
23 these lists of tasks. I haven't seen the document here, before now, and
24 as it will come as no surprise to you, I think I will, at this point in
25 time, refrain from going into the details of it.
1 Q. Very well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, would that be a moment.
3 MR. KAY: That's a convenient moment, Your Honour. May that
4 document be admitted, I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honour.
5 MR. WAESPI: No objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D775.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Liborius, out of an abundance of caution, we stop a bit
10 earlier in order to make sure that you'll not miss your plane. Which, of
11 course, brings us to the next issue; that is, we'd like to see you back
12 because the -- your testimony has not yet been concluded. Now we asked
13 Mr. Waespi earlier to discuss with you your presence on the 6th and the
14 7th of November this year, both dates high on your list of priorities.
15 That would be Thursday 6th and Friday, 7th of November.
16 Would you come to The Hague
17 THE WITNESS: I would prefer Friday, 7. As I indicated, bringing
18 in two days of regular court sessions, I propose that we would instead
19 take a day like this, combine two in one day.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Liborius, how much time we would have in
21 this Tribunal, in which, sometimes, where we have three courtrooms and
22 sometimes six or seven cases at the same time, is still to be considered.
23 Therefore, I do see your preference for the 7th. At the same
24 time, if we would not finish in one day, and, again, I don't know whether
25 we would have the whole of the day. We will certainly try to accommodate
1 your concerns. Then it would bring us to the weekend and then, of
2 course, we would have another problem; that is, whether or not you should
3 stay over the weekend and whether -- so, therefore, the Chamber has a
4 clear and explicit preference for the 6th.
5 And of course, I can't hide from you that of course it is, to
6 some extent, also in your own hands. I pointed a couple of times at --
7 at answers that certainly could have been shorter and I invited the
8 parties also to put focussed questions to you. So, therefore, if we
9 start on the 6th of November, whether we could perhaps with prolonged
10 sessions, which still has to be seen whether that is possible, whether we
11 could finish on that day is uncertain. But I would like you to keep
12 yourself available the 6th and 7th of November.
13 THE WITNESS: I will take it back and I will certainly do my
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Liborius, now just for your information, because
16 this is not a clear, I'll make myself available these two days. If we
17 could not finish the cross-examination, either it would urge us to ask
18 you to come back again, which takes travelling, et cetera. It is
19 expensive and takes additional time; or we might end up in a situation
20 where the Chamber could not exclude that the Defence would argue that
21 because you could not have been examined in full that therefore all of
22 your evidence should be stricken from the record. I'm not saying that
23 the Defence will do that but I already inform you that the Chamber cannot
24 exclude that such an action, and whatever the outcome would be, would be
25 taken. And I take it you, neither your government, would wish to us be
1 in a situation where we would have to consider such a request. I said, I
2 take it, if you say no, that's the situation I wish to come up, then of
3 course I would like to hear from you.
4 You see it is really important. You have given five statements,
5 you have been examined quite lengthy for what we call a 92 ter witness,
6 that is a witness who has given already evidence in statements that took
7 quite sometime. We are slowly moving forward. Perhaps we could move
8 forward a bit quicker. The Chamber would like you to be available on the
9 6th and the 7th.
10 Is that clear to you?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You will be informed by the Victims and Witness
13 Section when we will start on the 6th and we will try to accommodate you,
14 to the extent possible, to see that it does not take more effort and more
15 time and the Chamber appreciates the time you have spent until now on
16 giving testimony in -- before this Tribunal.
17 Then I again would like to instruct you, but now for a longer
18 period of time, that you should not speak with anyone about your
19 testimony, whether already given or still to be given on the 6th and
20 perhaps on the 7th of November.
21 You are excused.
22 Yes, Mr. Liborius.
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, thank you for your consideration for
24 the before 6.00. I just want to thank for you that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps Mr. Liborius could already be escorted out
1 of the courtroom so that he can travel as quickly as possible.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We have some although, well, limited time left. We
4 could perhaps deal with the exhibits that were tendered on the list by
5 the Prosecution.
6 Looking at this list, are there any objections against documents
7 appearing on the list? Otherwise I will ask Mr. Registrar to read them.
8 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I -- I have to look quickly. There
9 was one exhibit that we objected to. I don't know if it is being
10 tendered by the Prosecution.
11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that's correct, and I withdraw our request to
12 have it tendered and I believe this was 65 ter 5418.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And that is withdrawn, from what I understand.
14 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you perhaps slowly read the --
16 first, the 65 ter numbers, then the provisionally assigned exhibit
17 number. I don't know whether they changed due to the withdrawal of this
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you have one second.
21 Meanwhile, I inform the parties that for cross-examination, and
22 I'm fully aware of the problems that we'll still have to find the
23 schedules, but that the Chamber wants to conclude the cross-examination
24 of Witness Liborius on not later than the 7th of November. Despite all
25 the problems, we have to perhaps adapt to that to some extent.
1 Mr. Kay.
2 MR. KAY: I have had a brief consultation with Mr. Cayley and my
3 estimate will come down now in terms of my time. I obviously have to see
4 where I have gone and what I need to challenge. I can think of one
5 matter but I can deal with it perhaps in quite an easy way.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that Defence counsel together will
7 compare how much time is still needed perhaps even briefly talk to
8 Mr. Waespi what re-examination time would be needed. The Chamber,
9 through the legal officers, might also give an input to reserve a certain
10 amount of time so that we -- but, of course, that makes primarily sense
11 once we know how much time there is available on the 6th and 7th of
12 November. But even if it would just be two ordinary sessions, that is,
13 two morning sessions or two afternoon sessions, that the testimony of
14 this witness should conclude within these two days.
15 MR. KAY: It will.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I have a list in front of me -- one
17 second, please.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Registry will file a list in which you'll find
20 the 65 ter numbers. They are listed and they are not in sequential
21 order, but the first one on the list is 5413. The last one on the list,
22 the 26th, will be 4087. There are no objections against the documents
23 under -- known under the 65 ter numbers on this list from the Defence.
24 Therefore, the Chamber decides that these documents, all the documents on
25 the list, 26 in number, will be admitted -- are admitted into evidence as
1 Exhibits P831 up to and including P856.
2 If there would be any problem with this at any later stage, the
3 Chamber would like to hear, not later than by next Tuesday.
4 Now, there is one matter and I have to check that carefully.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the videos are -- still need some attention.
7 Mr. Waespi, are the full videos on the list or are they not.
8 MR. WAESPI: Yes, they are. In fact, the previous Registrar has
9 prepared a list as directed by you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And then I have to -- as a matter of fact, I have to
11 make a reservation because whether tendering the full videos is something
12 the Chamber wishes -- whether they admit the full videos, more or less
13 condemning the Chamber to spend their weekends behind the screen rather
14 than to do anything else, we would still like to consider that.
15 Therefore, the full videos are provisionally -- no, let me just see.
16 Yes, they are preceding this list and now I'm really confused.
17 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I believe --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Because we had a list of videos which run from P821
19 up to and including P833.
20 MR. WAESPI: That's correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And the Chamber has no problem in admitting into
22 evidence the video-clips we have seen; there are nine of them. But the
23 Chamber wants to consider whether we will admit into evidence the full
25 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I am advised by my case manager that
1 the numbers there are wrong and that these numbers have already been now
2 reassigned to other exhibits and we need to -- on this list.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. I see that -- yes, I see, as a
4 matter of fact, that the full videos are on the new list. The first one
5 being 3763, P846, if -- the second one -- can't find them.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the video-clips are included.
8 It becomes a bit chaotic now. Mr. Registrar will file the list. We'll
9 then see whether the decision yet taken needs reconsideration and the
10 Chamber expresses already on the record that it reserves its decision on
11 the full video going beyond the clips that were shown in court.
12 Let not try to further work this out because it might even lead
13 to more chaos.
14 If there are any practical problems in relation to the list,
15 could you please first address Mr. Monkhouse so that he can prepare
16 whatever the Chamber would have to consider before we continue.
17 Then are there any other procedural matters at this moment?
18 If not, then we adjourn, and we will resume on Monday, the 15th
19 of September, 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.40 p.m.
21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of
22 September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.