Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8980

 1                           Thursday, 18 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

11     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Mr. Dzolic, good morning to you as well.  I would like to remind

14     you that the solemn declaration that you gave yesterday at the beginning

15     of your testimony, that that solemn declaration still binds you.

16             Is that clear?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kay who is

19     counsel for Mr. Cermak.

20             Mr. Kay, you may proceed.

21             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           WITNESS:  BOSKO DZOLIC [Resumed}

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:

25        Q.   First matter I would like to raise with you, Mr. Dzolic, is so

Page 8981

 1     that you can look at the diagram showing the structure of the military

 2     police of the armed forces of the Republic of Croatia.

 3             MR. KAY:  Could we put on the screen, please, 2D06-0009.

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Dzolic, this document will set out in a diagram form

 5     some of the details that you were telling us about in your evidence

 6     yesterday and gave in your statement.

 7             And at the top of this diagram, can you see the military police

 8     administration of the Ministry of Defence, where the chief of

 9     administration is General Lausic?

10             Is that right that he's in charge of the military police?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And he has a deputy chief of administration, and that's Brigadier

13     Biskic.  Is that right?

14        A.   That's correct, yes.

15        Q.   And their headquarters are in Zagreb.  Is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And then, also, on this diagram, you will see a red arrow down

18     and then a number of battalions listed:  The 66th, with a commander in

19     Zagreb; the 67th; the 68th; the 71st; 73rd; 72nd; 69th; 70th; and 74th.

20             Is that right to say that those battalions and companies are all

21     subordinated to General Lausic?

22        A.   To the best of my recollection and to the best of my knowledge,

23     that's correct.

24        Q.   And we see in the box where there is the 72nd, we see the

25     commander of the 72nd, Colonel Budimir.  Is that right that he was the

Page 8982

 1     commander of the 72nd Military Police Battalion?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   And he had a deputy, Major Primorac.  Is that right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   You were a member of the 72nd.  Is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   And also subordinated to General Lausic, we also see on this

 8     diagram, first of all, a traffic company.  Is it right that there was a

 9     separate division in relation to traffic for the military police?

10        A.   I don't remember that there was one at the level of the

11     administration in that period, but it is possible.  I don't discount that

12     possibility.

13        Q.   Thank you.  There's an anti-terrorist platoon of the military

14     police.  Is that right?

15        A.   Yes, you can see it in this diagram, yes.

16        Q.   Yes.  And the 7th Light Brigade.  Is that right?

17        A.   That's correct, yes.

18        Q.   And a military police training centre in Zagreb.  Is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   And --

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I could just get a

22     clarification as to what the -- who has prepared this diagram and what

23     the source is.  I know there is a reference to sources at the bottom, but

24     it looks to me from the face of the document to be a document prepared by

25     the Defence team, and if that could be mentioned on record.

Page 8983

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's how it look, Mr. Kay.

 2             MR. KAY:  Absolutely, Your Honour.  Rather than bringing piles of

 3     books in the courtroom, we've chosen to do it in a simple way, declaring

 4     on the document where the sources are from for this document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             Does that satisfy?

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

10             And in those circumstances, Your Honour, may I make this document

11     an exhibit.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D785, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D785 is admitted into evidence.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. KAY:

18        Q.   Just while we're looking at this document, I'd just like to ask

19     you a few questions about training, Mr. Dzolic.  What sort of training

20     you had before you became a military policeman.

21        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

22        Q.   Can you tell us what sort of training you had to become a

23     military policeman?  Did you go on a course; if so, how long was the

24     course?  What sort of training did you have?

25        A.   The -- my training and preparation in the training centre is

Page 8984

 1     something that was never carried out; however, my authority to act

 2     stemmed from my work as a military policeman over a period of five years

 3     in military police units.  I cannot recall with any certainty when the

 4     military police training centre was established, as of what date, and

 5     when members or employees of the military police began to be sent to the

 6     training centre from the battalions.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President -- sorry.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also, I wish to mention that before

 9     the outbreak of the homeland war, I used to be a judicial policeman,

10     where, as a judicial policeman, for nine months I was trained in Zagreb,

11     in order to be granted the powers of a judicial policeman.

12             I hope that this answers your question.

13             MR. KAY:

14        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much, Mr. Dzolic.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may just mention, and I'm

16     sorry to interrupt Mr. Kay.  Just the sources that are on this chart

17     really do not indicate a date or any specific cities with which we could

18     check so that --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But I take it that rather than interrupting Mr. Kay

20     at this moment, if you need further details, that he will be willing to

21     provide them to you so that you can check.  I don't know whether that has

22     to be done during the cross-examination or whether --

23             Mr. Kay, are you willing to --

24             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, this is all very basic information that

25     comes from the Prosecution's own files and sources of information, and

Page 8985

 1     that's what we have used to compile this.  This is very basic --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, reference is made to decisions and

 3     orders, and it could well be that there is only one order by that name.

 4             But could you assist Ms. Mahindaratne on the matter?

 5             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I will gladly get one of my team to put a

 6     bundle together for her, so that she can see what the law is.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 8             MR. KAY:

 9        Q.   Just one point of clarification, Mr. Dzolic, the information

10     given to me was you may have said you never conducted training rather

11     than not being trained.

12             The question was the training that you had, whether you

13     personally had any training within the military police.

14        A.   In 1991 and 1992, when I was an ordinary military policeman, just

15     a private, there were neither the means nor was there the time for any

16     kind of training in that respect.  Training, if one can call it that, was

17     conducted through the practical implementation of tasks on the ground.

18             I did go through that sort of training in my everyday

19     assignments.  But for someone to train me and educate me strictly for the

20     tasks of a military policeman, that's something that never happened in

21     the training centre, not as regards the work of a military policeman.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             MR. KAY:  Can we look at another document, again in diagrammatic

24     form.  Could the Registry produce 2D06-0011.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, will we at a later stage receive further

Page 8986

 1     understanding of what the arrows exactly mean going in one direction or

 2     in two directions or what the boxes --

 3             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for that.

 5             MR. KAY:  Yes.  I want to not delay this witness too long perhaps

 6     on fine detail.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   This, again, is another diagram reflecting what you've put in

10     your statement, what you've told us about in evidence, and with a few

11     extra details, so that there is an complete picture of the structure of

12     the 72nd Battalion.  Can you see that, Mr. Dzolic?

13        A.   I see it, yes.

14        Q.   And if we look at the top of the boxes there, we see the

15     72nd Battalion.  The commander was Colonel Budimir.  Is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The Deputy Commander was Major Primorac.  Is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And subordinated to him were companies of the 72nd Battalion, and

20     can you see there the companies:  The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th?

21        A.   Yes, I see that.

22        Q.   And also the traffic company, which had a lieutenant in charge of

23     it.  Was that also one of the companies of the 72nd?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And also formed was the independent company that was based in

Page 8987

 1     Knin, and that was called the 7th Company.  And we know that you were

 2     appointed on the 5th of August as the commander of that, having been

 3     originally in the joined company in Rujani.  And you were the commander

 4     of that from the 29th of July to the 5th of August, and then the

 5     independent company became the 7th Company.  Is that right?

 6        A.   That is correct.  But, as far as I can remember, while I was the

 7     commander of that company, it was not the 7th Company.  It was only about

 8     ten days after I left Knin that it -- when it was given that name.  It

 9     was a joint company.  That's what we used to call it.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The dotted arrows there reflect that the members of

11     your company were drawn from the other companies of the 72nd, so that to

12     form the joined company, various police officers from the other companies

13     were sent to join you.  Is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I just ask Mr. Kay if there is an English

16     version of this chart available that we could follow.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I find it on --

18             MR. KAY:  The English channel.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- my computer on the English channel,

20     Ms. Mahindaratne.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Now it's on my screen, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

24        Q.   And all those companies were subordinated to Colonel Budimir.

25     That's right, isn't it?

Page 8988

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  That's what the diagram shows, and that's how it

 2     actually was.

 3        Q.   And other than the companies, there were also other sections and

 4     squads which made up the 72nd, and you told us yesterday about the

 5     criminal section of the military police, which is also subordinated to

 6     Colonel Budimir.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And a logistics platoon, and an anti-terrorist platoon, and a dog

 9     section.  Were those also other squads, sections, platoons subordinated

10     to Colonel Budimir?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And is it right, as reflected in this diagram, that you didn't

13     have a criminal section within your company, the joint company, which was

14     based in Knin?

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object to that question, Mr. President.

16     That evidence is already in.  In fact, the witness clearly answered this

17     question yesterday, and if -- I could tell Court what the witness said if

18     the witness is --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the Court, of course, can read what the

20     witness said.  First of all, of course, the Chamber will consider whether

21     questions are repetitious, and, of course, we're not seeking repetition.

22     I don't know, Mr. Kay, if this may be an introduction to further

23     questions.  So if I would stop every question that would be put for the

24     second time, we might lose time by me stopping counsel.  We might gain a

25     lot of time by avoiding repetitious questions.

Page 8989

 1             However, I have another problem with the question, in light of

 2     the evidence given yesterday by the witness.  This reflects -- the

 3     diagram reflects part only - I'm not saying that this does not reflect

 4     what he said yesterday - but it certainly does not reflect everything he

 5     said yesterday on criminal sections.  So, to that extent, the reference

 6     to what the chart shows, the chart shows part of his evidence and exactly

 7     the part you refer to.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Is that right what I've put to you, that the independent company

11     in Knin did not a criminal section within that company?

12        A.   That's not right.  As of the 8th of August -- actually, this was

13     the 8th -- or, rather, this was the joint company.  It had not been

14     formed according to the establishment.  It was created as a joint company

15     and it was dislocated from the battalion headquarters, so that as of the

16     8th of May [as interpreted], employees of the criminal police were added

17     to the Knin company.

18        Q.   8th of May of what year?

19        A.   1995, on our entry into the town of Knin.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that the witness is confusing the 5th day

21     of the eighth month with the 8th day of the fifth month.

22             MR. KAY:  I'm told he said, "August," Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 8990

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 8th of August.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 3             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

 4        Q.   So did you have a criminal section that was part of the

 5     independent company in Knin?

 6        A.   As of the 8th of August, 1995, three or four policemen were

 7     attached to my company.  I can't confirm the exact number who arrived on

 8     that day.

 9        Q.   Were they subordinated to you?

10        A.   They were subordinated to me in the sense that they were supposed

11     to carry out their everyday tasks in the company; for example, lining up

12     at lunch-time, their appearance, their conduct had to be the same as that

13     of every other member of the company.  However, in their professional

14     work, they were subordinated to the military crime police department,

15     which we see in the diagram here, and this was under the leadership of

16     Corporal Milas.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And that explains that matter.

18             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, might this document be admitted into

19     evidence as an exhibit, please.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number D786, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D786 is admitted into evidence.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. KAY:

Page 8991

 1        Q.   Let us turn now to the evidence that you gave yesterday

 2     concerning the establishment of the 72nd.  You were shown various

 3     documents.

 4             MR. KAY:  Perhaps if we could have D267 first, and page 4 of six

 5     in the English version where we will be looking at paragraph 10.

 6             This is the document dated the 2nd of August.  It is from the

 7     military police administration to all the military police battalions, and

 8     it was issued by General Lausic on that day.

 9             And it is in this document that Major Juric is appointed and a

10     group of officers from the regular military police section of the -- and

11     the military police administration crime section to assist in commanding

12     and organizing the activities of the 72nd and 73rd Battalion that shall

13     perform tasks in its own area of responsibility and provide necessary

14     assistance to the 72nd.

15             Those commanders of the 72nd and 73rd shall be subordinated to

16     Major Ivan Juric.

17        Q.   First of all, Major Juric, was he from the military police

18     administration?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   As a major, he was in command of the 72nd and 73rd Battalions;

21     but as we've looked, the 72nd Battalion had a colonel in command, and

22     that was Colonel Budimir.  Is that right?

23        A.   That's right.  However, as far as I can remember, I don't know

24     whether Colonel Budimir was a colonel at that time or a major.

25        Q.   Very well.  We'll look at a document in a moment which will tell

Page 8992

 1     us what his rank was.

 2             But if he was a colonel and a major was appointed as his

 3     superior, would that be an appointment and command that you would have to

 4     accept as being from a superior officer, although he was a major?

 5        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

 6        Q.   Let's say Colonel Budimir -- let's say Budimir was a colonel and

 7     there's evidence that he was a colonel.  Major Juric, as a major,

 8     although that is an inferior rank to a Colonel.  That's right, isn't it?

 9        A.   Yes, that's right.

10        Q.   Because of the order that had made him the commander and superior

11     to the other commanders, the colonels of the 72nd and 73rd, that would be

12     an appointment and subordination that would you have to accept.  Isn't

13     that right?

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object to that question.  I

15     don't know what the foundation for that question is whether this witness

16     is aware of exactly at that level.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, he was member of that battalion.  If the

18     witness knows, he can answer it.

19             The question is whether the appointment of a major in a position

20     in the hierarchy higher than a colonel, whether that would result in a

21     situation where the higher ranking but inferior-positioned colonel had to

22     accept the orders of the major.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear now, Your Honour.

24             If this is an order regarding this, an officer may issue orders

25     to a superior officer according to rank.  It is the duty, as far as I can

Page 8993

 1     recall, always attached to it more power and authority than rank.

 2             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             And if we just go to the next page, page 5, we see details of

 4     what reporting would take place for the 72nd and 73rd by Major Juric to

 5     the military police administration.

 6        Q.   What I want to ask you about now is some questions concerning

 7     Major Juric.

 8             Did you report to him while he was in command of the 72nd and

 9     73rd?

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object to that.  There is no

11     evidence that Major Juric was in command of the 72 and 73rd.  The

12     document says that the commanders are subordinated.  There is no

13     indication of the -- of Major Juric being -- I object to this,

14     Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.  You are objecting against

16     substance of the question; whereas, of course, in cross-examination, you

17     are more free than you would be in examination-in-chief.  And if you see

18     that disasters are about to happen, I would not prevent you from

19     intervening, but let's wait for the answer of the witness, to whom he

20     reported.  And if there's any issue as reporting to someone who

21     apparently was not in command, because that seems to be the substance of

22     your objection, then, of course, the next question arises why one would

23     report to someone who was not in command then, of course, you can raise

24     that issue during re-examination.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

Page 8994

 1             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, as I understood, it is my learned friend's

 2     own case, the Prosecution's own case, that Major Juric was in command of

 3     the 72nd in Knin at this period, and I do wonder what is happening here.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, is that something you confirm?

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  We do not confirm that

 6     Major Juric was in command.  There was a different terminology used.  We

 7     have not stated that Major Juric was in command of the 72nd military

 8     police.  That is not -- that was my objection, in fact, the terminology

 9     used that he was in command.  There was a --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's not raise the issue again.  You can do

11     that in re-examination.  There's no problem with that.

12             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  To be quite honest, Mr. Kay, I would have to check

14     exactly whether with all the details of the wording that's the

15     Prosecution case or not.  But if you have a clear source for that, I take

16     it that you'll remind Ms. Mahindaratne of such a position; and if there's

17     not, then, of course, there seems, at least in that respect, there seems

18     to be no major problem.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. KAY:

21        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, was Major Juric in command of the 72nd and the 73rd

22     Military Police Battalions as of the 2nd of August, according to the

23     orders of Major-General Lausic?

24        A.   From what I can recall from that time, and also looking at this

25     item here, where it says that the commanders of the 72nd and 73rd shall

Page 8995

 1     be subordinated to Major Juric, I can infer that he was a commander and

 2     that he was authorised to issue commands to those commanders.

 3             MR. KAY:  And may I remind the Court of the evidence of the

 4     witness Hill whom the Prosecution called on this matter.

 5        Q.   Major Juric was someone that you knew at the time because you

 6     shared a room with him.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did he command you whilst he was in Knin until you left?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you very much.

11             MR. KAY:  Shall we look at D268.  This is a document dated the

12     2nd of August, 1995.  It is a document, again, from General Lausic about

13     the reinforcement of the 72nd Military Police Battalion, and we see in

14     his order his task is set out.  In the command system, he is superior to

15     the 2nd -- 72nd Military Police Battalion and 73rd Military Police

16     Battalion commanders, with regard to the 73rd extending assistance to

17     the 72nd.

18             If we look at page 3 of the English, he is responsible for the

19     implementation of all military police tasks in the 72nd military police

20     zone of responsibility.  He shall cooperate and coordinate the

21     implementation of tasks of with the workers of the Zadar police

22     administration.  Other parties are named.  He is authorised to undertake

23     all measures to ensure efficient and effective implementation of military

24     police tasks in the 72nd Military Police Battalion and operating group

25     north -- Operation Group North zones of responsibility.

Page 8996

 1        Q.   That was General Lausic's order in relation to Major Juric, and

 2     can you confirm that he did take command and was responsible for the

 3     implementation of all the military police tasks whilst you were there in

 4     Knin with the joint company?

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object to that question because, again, the

 6     witness has testified on this yesterday.  I specifically asked the -- the

 7     witness on this particular issues, and the witness has testified.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But the evidence the witness gave yesterday can be

 9     tested in cross-examination, Ms. Mahindaratne; isn't it?

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  But to have the witness answer the same

11     question --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, the objection is denied.

13             MR. KAY:

14        Q.   Can you confirm - and I do apologise, Mr. Dzolic, for this - but

15     can you confirm that he was and did take command and implement all the

16     tasks within the zone of responsibility of the 72nd whilst you were there

17     in Knin?

18        A.   I can confirm that he was a commander of the military police

19     forces while I was in Knin; in other words, in the combat area zones

20     where the armed forces were engaged in combat.

21             However, whether he actually carried out all the tasks that are

22     ordered in this document, I cannot confirm that because I wasn't present

23     with Major Juric at all the meetings and coordinating meetings mentioned

24     here.  I know that he went and attended certain meetings, both with the

25     police and with the superior commands; however, I don't know -- or,

Page 8997

 1     rather, I don't remember exactly with whom these meetings were, when, and

 2     how many times.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  I just would like to note that there may be an

 5     issue in line 17 -- I'm sorry, in line 14 on page 17, regarding the

 6     interpretation, and if we could have that checked, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, with the interpretation, we always have two

 8     matters; the first is whether this leads to misunderstanding or whether

 9     it is a detail for which we need our interpreters to check the accuracy

10     of the translation at the end.

11             Since you refer to it now, perhaps, Mr. Kay, you put the question

12     again, which appears in line 14 --

13             MR. MISETIC:  I will talk to Mr. Kay to explain to him what the

14     issue is, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then perhaps if you could rephrase --

16             MR. KAY:  I know it.  I have other language speakers who have

17     been able to advise me.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And they confirm that there may be a problem.

19             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you reformulate the question and get an answer

21     which is not suffering from any imposition.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. KAY:  Yes.

24        Q.   Would you agree he was the commander of the military police in

25     the zones of responsibility of the 72nd and 73rd at that time?

Page 8998

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. KAY:  I hope that clears up the issue for my learned friends.

 4        Q.   Was a zone of responsibility ever identified to you for the joint

 5     company in Knin?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, while I was commander of that company,

 7     I was not aware of the area of responsibility of that company.

 8        Q.   Was that something that should have been explained to you or

 9     ordered to you as to the geographical area of responsibility for which

10     you were the commander of the company?

11        A.   When I was issued an order from Rujani to enter Knin, I was told

12     to enter Knin and establish a company there; in other words, to provide

13     all the necessities for their normal life and work, to secure the vital

14     facilities, to set up check-points.

15             And according to me, in my opinion, in my view, I should have

16     been issued more specific tasks as to what geographical areas I was to

17     cover around Knin town, which was a rather large area.  I couldn't tell

18     you exactly what the area was.  But it was -- and the borders of that

19     area with other companies, so that each company would exactly know what

20     their jurisdiction was and what responsibilities they had for which

21     areas, so that there wouldn't be any overlapping in the assignments.

22             Throughout the time when I was in Knin, I never received such

23     instructions.

24        Q.   We've seen that you were given a number of men under your command

25     from the other companies of the 72nd reinforced by men from the 73rd.

Page 8999

 1     Can you remember how many men in all you had under your command in Knin?

 2        A.   The manpower, as far as I can recall, and I think I already said

 3     this in my statement, the men that entered with me in Knin were about 75

 4     military policemen strong.  However, on the next day, we received

 5     reinforcement, additional forces arrived from the seat of the -- the

 6     headquarters of the battalion, a reinforcement of some 80 military

 7     policemen; and while I was there, while I was the commander of the joint

 8     company in Knin, in those five or six days, there were about 140 military

 9     policemen under me.

10        Q.   And did you know the men under you?  Had you worked with them

11     before?

12        A.   With some I had; with some I hadn't.

13        Q.   You had previously been in the 2nd Company, hadn't you?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And some of the men from the 2nd Company formed part of the joint

16     company.  Isn't that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The first men that you had in Knin, about the 75, what -- how

19     many of them did you know, what proportion?  Are you able to tell us?

20        A.   I cannot say it now with certainty, after all the time that has

21     elapsed; but I don't think I would be very wrong if I said about 50

22     per cent of them.

23             However, I would like to stress that the forces that entered Knin

24     together with me, there were also members of the -- of the 66th Battalion

25     of the military police that came from Rujani.  In other words, part of

Page 9000

 1     the forces from Grahovo were pulled out and they came into Knin with me.

 2     So it wasn't just members of the 72nd within this joint company, there

 3     were also members of the 66th; and of those, some 20 or so military

 4     police, I knew no one.  I met and got to know some of them in the field,

 5     as it were.

 6        Q.   And what sort of ranks were they that also formed this joint

 7     company?  Did you -- what type of rank of soldier did you have beneath

 8     you in the company?

 9        A.   As far as I can remember, I think there was a captain and then a

10     senior lieutenant, or a lieutenant.  How many non-commissioned officers

11     there were, I really can't recall.  The rest were probably privates.

12     Some of them may have privates of first class or second class.  But which

13     rank they held, I can't really say with any certainty.

14        Q.   How did you organise them into platoons or units?  How did you

15     achieve that.

16        A.   How did I organise this?  I can't really recall what the

17     criterion was to assign them; however, I assume that I was guided by the

18     idea that members who were attached and who had been members of the 66th

19     who were with me when we entered Knin and who had their own commander of,

20     let's say, a squad commander, he would be responsible for those members.

21             I also tried to organise the members of other companies in such a

22     manner that if there was an officer from that company, that that officer

23     remained their superior and that he be my subordinate within the company

24     itself.

25             I think this was the general method of work; however, in view of

Page 9001

 1     how much time has elapsed, I really cannot recall this with any

 2     precision.

 3        Q.   Was it difficult with the soldiers whom you didn't know of 50

 4     per cent of the first 75 to know what their competence was, what their

 5     training was, what tasks they could do, if you didn't know them?

 6        A.   I didn't have the time to check their professionalism or their

 7     knowledge before we set off and when we entered Knin; however, the test

 8     was actually done after we entered Knin, when I inspected check-points

 9     and supervised the patrols and their work.  In conversation with those

10     police officers, I could draw certain conclusions as to what type of

11     soldier they were.

12             However, what I would like to say, Your Honour, is that during

13     the difficult times of war, a commander doesn't really have a lot of time

14     to assess and reassess individual men; rather, we had to delegate and

15     assign them tasks, and then, in the course of their execution of the

16     task, you could determine what kind of soldier they were.

17        Q.   And did you discover that some were good and some were bad at

18     their jobs?

19        A.   I can't recall with certainty now.  I don't remember that there

20     were soldiers who made serious omissions in their work; however, I allow

21     the possibility that some individuals may have carried out certain tasks

22     better or worse than others.

23        Q.   Of the extra troops that were sent to you as reinforcement, did

24     you -- did you know any of those troops?

25        A.   No, I didn't.  I got to know them when they came to assist me in

Page 9002

 1     the Operations Group North in the Rujani command, and they were

 2     dislocated to the area of the town of Grahovo.

 3        Q.   And what ranks did you have amongst those extra troops that were

 4     sent to you?  What was the makeup, the composition in terms of ranks of

 5     the units?

 6        A.   To the best of my recollection, there was one captain, Sigura.

 7     The other commanders, I'm not sure whether there were any officers among

 8     them; and how many non-commissioned officers there were among them, I

 9     cannot confirm that with any certainty.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  There was certainly

11     one captain; and the other commanders, I'm not sure.

12             MR. KAY:

13        Q.   So, learning about the competence of the troops whilst you're

14     done there in Knin, was that difficult for you?  Did it make it harder

15     for you in the performance of your tasks?

16        A.   Well, certainly.  That was one thing that made my work more

17     difficult.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. KAY:  Could we look at another document now, 65 ter 1629.

20     It's a document dated the 5th of August, 1995, and it's a report by

21     Major Juric on the execution of tasks on the 5th of August, 1995.

22             And in the English version, we can see on the first page that it

23     refers to various units.  On page 2 of the English --

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, this document was admitted

25     yesterday as P879.

Page 9003

 1             MR. KAY:  Thank you.  I'm grateful to my learned friend.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

 3             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 4        Q.   We can see at 1.4, can you see, your name is mentioned as being

 5     in Knin with your company that you've told us about.  And it states about

 6     your supervisory and control post at the town entry and exit, securing

 7     facilities of special importance, receiving prisoners of war, preventing

 8     violations of public law and order.

 9             This was the 5th of August.  We can see at the end of this

10     document that Major Juric signs this - we've no need to pull this up -

11     and sends it to the military police administration.  He's reporting as to

12     the work of your company on that day.

13             As it was on the 5th of August, I presume, would I be right in

14     saying that you didn't have time to make a written report to him of all

15     your tasks that you had done?

16        A.   To the best of my recollection, after so much time has elapsed, I

17     don't think I drew up a written report.  I think I informed him orally

18     and gave him all the points he needed to compile this report.

19        Q.   And you were reporting to him so that he could make the report as

20     you were subordinate to him.  Is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   After the 5th of August until you left Knin, did you have

23     occasions when you gave written reports to Major Juric, telling him what

24     your company had done during the day?

25        A.   I can't tell you with any certainty that I did, but I think that

Page 9004

 1     most likely there would have been such written reports that I sent to

 2     Major Juric.

 3        Q.   Yeah.  And did you know that he was sending your reports and

 4     information that you gave him to the military police administration in

 5     Zagreb?

 6        A.   Well, I can't say with any certainty that I knew that, but I did

 7     assume that these were the points he would use to brief his superior

 8     command.  It was the input.

 9        Q.   And how often during a day did you meet with Major Juric?

10        A.   To the best of my recollection, it would all depend on the

11     current situation.  It differed from day to day.  Depending on the needs,

12     we would meet at least once a day, but sometimes as many as five or six

13     times.  However, Your Honours, I can't state with certainty that it was

14     five times or six times or only once.  It would all depend on the

15     situation.

16        Q.   So would I be right in saying that you didn't have a regular

17     daily meeting with him that was at a fixed time each day?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   But he knew what you were doing as part of your tasks and he let

20     you get on with your job.  Is that right?

21        A.   Correct, yes.

22        Q.   And when we looked at that previous report of his, about the

23     check-point, is that something that you did of your own initiative when

24     you arrived in Knin, set one up without anyone having to tell you to set

25     one up?

Page 9005

 1        A.   To the best of my recollection, I set up check-points on the

 2     first day, not on my own initiative, but based on an order from Colonel

 3     Budimir, who ordered me to carry out this task, before I left Rujani to

 4     go to Knin.

 5        Q.   And did Colonel Budimir give you any other instructions other

 6     than that when you left Rujani to go to Knin?

 7        A.   No, he didn't.  He just gave me general tasks to set up the life

 8     and work of the company, to find a facility to quarter my company in, to

 9     set up barrier check-points.  And it was up to me to assess the situation

10     on the ground and decide where it would be most useful to set up

11     check-points, to control exit and entry into and from the town, and to

12     provide security for protected facilities.  And what facilities these

13     were exactly, that's something I was not told right away.

14             So, to the best of my recollection, on the first day, on my entry

15     into Knin, we did not secure a large number of facilities.

16        Q.   Did you know Knin?  Had you been there before?

17        A.   No, I didn't know Knin.  Before the war, I may have passed

18     through it on my way to Zagreb in a car once or twice.  You drive down

19     the street, but you can't really see how big the town is or how far it

20     extends.

21        Q.   This was all information that you had to find out in the

22     following days.  Is that right?

23        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

24        Q.   About what facilities there were in Knin, what buildings there

25     were in Knin, the layout of the town, that was all information that you

Page 9006

 1     had to learn after you arrived in Knin.  Is that right?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Did Major -- when did you meet Major Juric after you entered

 4     Knin?

 5        A.   I don't recall.  I can't say with certainty whether it was the

 6     first night, the 5th of August, after my arrival in Knin, or whether it

 7     was on the following day; but I do allow for the possibility that it was

 8     the first night rather than the following day.

 9        Q.   Did know from talking to him whether he was familiar with Knin,

10     whether he knew about the town?

11        A.   I don't recall a conversation of that kind, nor I do recall that

12     I was able to gain an insight into the extent of his knowledge of the

13     town of Knin.

14        Q.   Did Colonel Budimir come to Knin at any stage?

15        A.   I can't assert that; but I think that on the first day, or,

16     rather, the first evening, he was in Knin.

17        Q.   Did you have meetings with him while you were in Knin?

18        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

19        Q.   Did you have meetings with Colonel Budimir whilst you were in

20     Knin?  Did he and you have meetings about your work, discuss your work

21     whilst you were in Knin?

22        A.   I don't remember any such meetings, except for the meeting we

23     spoke about yesterday, I think, when I testified that I had been present

24     at a meeting held on the 12th of August, 1995.

25        Q.   Did you report to Colonel Budimir during this period whilst you

Page 9007

 1     were in Knin as to what you were doing, what was happening, and what the

 2     work of the joint company was in Knin?

 3        A.   Reporting to Colonel Budimir about the incidents that were

 4     occurring and the tasks of the company in Knin was something I did

 5     through reporting in the course of my work whenever he came to Knin; and,

 6     as I recall, reports were sent from the company to the battalion

 7     concerning the implementation of the Knin company, of the work of the

 8     Knin company, for that day.

 9        Q.   So the Knin company sent daily reports to Colonel Budimir.  Was

10     that in written form, written reports?

11        A.   I don't recall now what kind of reports these were, but I think

12     they should have been written.

13        Q.   That would have been the standard procedure.  Is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Was Colonel Budimir based in Knin or did he remain based in

16     Rujani?

17        A.   The first night, after the company entered Knin, I can't be sure

18     whether he was actually in Knin or whether he was carrying out some other

19     tasks or whether he had gone back to the headquarters of the

20     72nd Battalion.  I think it most likely that he was not in Rujani

21     because, at that time, only a squad of military policemen remained in

22     Rujani, and they were carrying out the tasks of securing the forward

23     command post.

24             Allow me to correct myself as regards my certainty.  He may have

25     been in Rujani if the commander of the Military District was holding a

Page 9008

 1     meeting in Rujani that evening, and it was necessary for Colonel Budimir

 2     to attend that briefing.

 3        Q.   Did Colonel Budimir visit Knin every day after the 5th of August?

 4        A.   I can't say with any certainty that it was every day; but if it

 5     wasn't every day, it would be 90 per cent of the days while I was there,

 6     while I was the company commander in Knin, that I would meet with Colonel

 7     Budimir.

 8        Q.   And did he discuss your tasks and work?

 9        A.   I don't recall, probably yes, but you'd have to ask Colonel

10     Budimir that, because I don't remember whether he discussed my work or

11     not.  I don't, however, recall any objections to or any criticism of my

12     work.

13        Q.   He remained your immediate superior, didn't he?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And did he supervise your work, tell you what tasks to do?

16        A.   As my superior, he would issue orders to me assigning me tasks.

17     One such order that I remember was when the supreme commander of the

18     armed forces came to Knin.  We had to search the ground along the side

19     streets of the route that the supreme commander of the armed forces was

20     to take.  How many such tasks were issued to me by Colonel Budimir is

21     something I can't say exactly.

22        Q.   Looking at the picture that you've told us, it seems that you

23     were reporting to both Colonel Budimir and Major Juric.  Is that right?

24        A.   That's correct, yes.

25             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I would be embarking on a new topic and

Page 9009

 1     that is probably a convenient moment.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'd have a break first.

 3             We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, you may proceed.

 7             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dzolic.

 9             Mr. Dzolic, I want to ask you some questions now about daily

10     tasks.  You remember that phrase was asked of you yesterday?

11        A.   Yes, I remember.

12        Q.   And by that, we mean the daily tasks of the company of the

13     military police.  Is it right that daily tasks are matters such as

14     guarding facilities, check-points, patrols?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   They are routine matters.  Is that right?

17        A.   I think it is.

18        Q.   Am I right in saying that the investigation of crimes is not part

19     of the daily tasks?

20        A.   Up to a point, you're right.

21             What do I mean by this, Your Honour?  For a company, and for me,

22     the general military police in other words, these would be daily tasks.

23     As for the crime -- the military crime police, these should be daily

24     tasks, the investigation of crimes, if they had sufficient parameters to

25     carry them out.

Page 9010

 1        Q.   And the military police -- crime police, were a separate section

 2     of the 72nd and 73rd Battalions to your joint company.  That's right,

 3     isn't it?

 4        A.   Could you please repeat the question.

 5        Q.   Yes.  The crime police was a different section of the

 6     72nd Military Police Battalion; it was outside your company, your joint

 7     company.

 8        A.   The crime police section of the 72nd Military Police Battalion

 9     did not -- was not part of the joint company in Knin.

10        Q.   And your daily task would not have included the investigation of

11     crimes.

12        A.   My tasks - and I'm speaking for myself - were not.  So it was not

13     part of my daily tasks to investigate crimes.  As I said yesterday during

14     my testimony, I think mention was made of this, from the 8th of

15     August onwards, certain police, military police officers, were attached

16     of the -- so certain military police officers of the crime police were

17     attached to the Knin company.  They were from the 72nd Battalion.  And as

18     of that moment on, they existed as an independent section of that

19     department.

20             MR. KAY:  If we just look at a document here, 65 ter 1677,

21     please.

22        Q.   And what we're going look at, Mr. Dzolic, is a book called "The

23     Daily Order, Knin Joint Company, 5th of August to 23rd of September,

24     1995."  And it's the daily order book for the Knin joint company, right

25     from the start, when you were in Knin.

Page 9011

 1             Do you see that on the screen there?

 2        A.   I see it, but I can't quite figure out the date here.  I cannot

 3     see the exact figures.

 4        Q.   It says from the 5th of August to the 23rd of September, 1995, so

 5     it's right from the start, when you went to Knin.

 6        A.   Right.

 7        Q.   When you gave evidence yesterday, you looked at something called

 8     the duty log, which was a different book to this book.  Do you

 9     understand?

10        A.   I understand.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KAY:  If we just look at the first page in English.

13             Your Honour, the translators of the Tribunal haven't reproduced

14     all the names in the English translation for obvious reasons.  The names

15     of the individuals are in the Croatian version.  This is how the Defence

16     received the document off the Prosecution's 65 ter list, I should also

17     add.

18        Q.   Do you recognise this -- this book now?  It's the daily order

19     book, and it sets out the check-points.  Do you see that?  You've got

20     names on yours.  I'm going to have to -- yeah.

21             There's a check-point of a company seen, check-point, and a list

22     of names.  Do you recognise that?

23        A.   I can see it.

24        Q.   Yeah.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I just come back to what you said about the

Page 9012

 1     list of names.

 2             Now, this appears not to be just list of names because there's

 3     something added to it; for example, I could not expect someone to be by

 4     the name of motorist, for example, which there's apparently seems to be

 5     added something here there.  For example, I'm looking at 14, 15, 16, and

 6     17 of the list of 17 names.  So, therefore, I would like perhaps if the

 7     Prosecution could assist here as well --

 8             MR. KAY:  I could deal with this, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's fine.

10             MR. KAY:  It is not of importance to me.  I appreciate it may be

11     to Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If the parties agree that it is not of any

13     importance, then I will not insist.  I just observe that there is more

14     than just list of names.

15             MR. KAY:  And I'm corrected in the accuracy, Your Honour, of my

16     explanation.  I'm being brief.  It is unimportant for the issues.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if Ms. Mahindaratne would agree with that,

18     then -- Ms. Mahindaratne.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It apparently is what Mr. Kay tells us is that this

21     is the unrevised translation uploaded on the 65 ter list.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President, that is correct.  And we

23     are in the process of trying to upload the revised translation.  It is

24     just that I did not have notice that this document would be called up.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  For the time being, it appears to be not a major

Page 9013

 1     problem that we do not have this translated.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 4             If we could turn to the second page of the B/C/S, keeping on the

 5     English page, so that I can marry it up.

 6             More names.  Can we go to the page after that is correct, please.

 7     There you are.  Ah, just stop there.

 8        Q.   Can you see down at the bottom there, "Bosko Dzolic," your name,

 9     Mr. Dzolic, as number one, left-hand corner?  Can you see that?

10        A.   I can see it.

11        Q.   Yeah.

12             MR. KAY:  And if we could turn the next page of the Croatian

13     version.

14        Q.   You can see daily order of the joint company for the 9th of

15     August there; check-point towards Drnis; check-points -- it lists

16     check-points.

17             MR. KAY:  And then the next page of the B/C/S, please; next page

18     of the English.

19        Q.   It refers to securing the hotel, car patrol, auto patroller, and

20     motorists, and details there.

21             MR. KAY:  If we can go to the next page again of the English --

22     actually, sorry, scroll down the English.  It's my mistake.  I'm very

23     sorry about that.

24             If we could go back on the English page.  Sorry, Mr. Monkhouse.

25     Down at the bottom, daily order, and then if we could move over the B/C/S

Page 9014

 1     page.  And taking it on to the right-hand side, daily order, 6th of

 2     August, 1995, check-point towards Drnis; lists of names.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise this book, Mr. Dzolic, as being the daily order

 4     book for the joint company?

 5        A.   I recognise it.

 6        Q.   And is it right that if we went through further of these pages of

 7     this book, we would see details each day of the check-points, security of

 8     a building, and patrols set out, as to what individuals were doing them

 9     each day and what their shift hours were?

10        A.   Yes.  That is evident from this order.

11        Q.   Yes.  We've no need to go further into this book, as we will take

12     up a great deal of time in just confirming what I have said and what you

13     have confirmed to me.

14             And is it right to say that this reflects the daily tasks of the

15     joint Knin company, being the daily tasks of check-points, securing

16     buildings, and patrols?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be admitted into

20     evidence, please.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D787.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D787 is admitted into evidence.

25             I take it that a revised translation will be sooner or later be

Page 9015

 1     produced.

 2             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  The parties will liaise on that, and

 3     I hope the Court appreciates that I haven't taken you through all these

 4     pages in what would be an exercise the Court could do for itself on the

 5     premise of the questions and the answers of the witness.

 6        Q.   Is it right, Mr. Dzolic, that you went to several briefings at

 7     Mr. Cermak's office in Knin whilst you were there during the period the

 8     5th to 12th of August?

 9        A.   It's right.

10        Q.   And can you confirm that at those meetings, there were a number

11     of civilian people, people interested in the water, electricity, the

12     functioning of the town.  Is that right?

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   This was not just a military meeting, but it was a meeting of

15     many different people, all of whom were interested in the functioning of

16     the town at that time.  Is that right?

17        A.   That is right.

18        Q.   And at that meeting, various people would state what was

19     happening in the matters that were important to them; for instance, a man

20     interested in the electricity being put on in the town would be talking

21     about that.  Is that right?  Is that an accurate description?

22        A.   I think it is accurate.

23        Q.   That cleaning up the streets of the town; removing rubbish and

24     debris was discussed.

25        A.   I cannot state that with certainty, but I think it is right.

Page 9016

 1        Q.   And would it be right, there were ten to 20 people gathered at

 2     these briefing sessions?

 3        A.   That is right.

 4        Q.   And can you confirm that Mr. Cermak chaired that meeting and was

 5     trying to coordinate between the different people and interests to help

 6     them --

 7        A.   As far as I recall, that is right.

 8        Q.   You were there as a representative of the military police.  Is

 9     that right?

10        A.   That is right.

11        Q.   And were you the only military policeman present at the briefing?

12        A.   I cannot confirm that with certainty; but, generally speaking, I

13     think I was the only one.

14        Q.   And can you recollect if there was a man from the civil police

15     there, representing the civil police?

16        A.   I think, as far as I can recall, that that is correct.

17        Q.   Was the government's commissioner, Mr. Pasic, Mr. Petar Pasic,

18     also present?

19        A.   I do not recall that name, but I assume that he was present.

20        Q.   And would it be fair to say that these briefings lasted for under

21     one hour each morning?

22        A.   I cannot recall for certainty, but I think we can confirm that

23     they did not take very long.  They did not last very long.

24        Q.   But during the meetings whilst you were there, was it right that

25     check-points were discussed as to the best places around the town for

Page 9017

 1     check-points to be put in place?

 2        A.   I cannot recall that.  I cannot recall that information.

 3        Q.   Can you remember if crimes that were happening, such as looting

 4     or burning, were discussed at the briefings that you went to?

 5        A.   I don't remember that that was discussed.

 6        Q.   Do you recollect Mr. Cermak telling you at those briefings it was

 7     important for the military police to do their job?

 8        A.   I cannot remember, but I think that General Cermak did stress

 9     such things.

10        Q.   Would it be fair to say that General Cermak, at those meetings,

11     was trying to get, as best as he could, the town of Knin working?

12        A.   I think that that is right.

13        Q.   Would you agree that General Cermak was not in a position, he

14     could not order you to investigate crimes?

15        A.   Could you please repeat the question.

16        Q.   General Cermak had no authority to order you to investigate

17     crimes.  Is that right?

18        A.   That is right.

19        Q.   What Cermak -- what General Cermak could do was, in fact, ask you

20     to attend meetings with him and the other people within Knin so that you

21     could take part in the meeting.  He couldn't order you to attend those

22     meetings.  Do you agree with that?

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I just quote, and perhaps

24     in fairness if the witness is asked to take off his earphones.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones for a second,

Page 9018

 1     Mr. Dzolic.

 2             Ms. Mahindaratne.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, the witness has testified at

 4     paragraph 37.  If could I draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to

 5     paragraph 37 of his first statement P875, that is the 2004 statement.  He

 6     clearly testifies that -- he says:  "I was also under the command of

 7     General Cermak, and I was to obey any order that General Cermak gave me.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And this statement the witness has gone

10     through in proofing, and he did not correct it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Now the witness is testifying differently to

13     that position.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At least that is a possibility that that can

15     happen, when you're testing evidence, it sometimes comes out; and, of

16     course, finally, the Chamber will have to decide what weight to give to

17     part of his evidence which is contradictable, whether to draw any

18     conclusion from that.

19             But, Ms. Mahindaratne, cross-examination would not make much

20     sense if we would have to accept that anything that is in evidence in

21     chief should not be touched upon.

22             I mean, cross-examination is there for testing and for

23     challenging the evidence that was given in chief, isn't it?

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President, I agree with that.  But my

25     question is considering the demeanour of this witness and, clearly, his

Page 9019

 1     partiality to one party.  I thinks, perhaps, that it is appropriate to --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, first of all, it is your witness,

 3     isn't it?

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It is, Mr. President, but sometimes the

 5     part -- the witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This is all comment.  You're raising a lot of

 7     questions that may cross our minds at any moment in the future, how, what

 8     may be more credible parts of evidence, less credible part, more

 9     reliable, less reliable.  But that should not, at this moment, interrupt

10     the evidence Mr. Kay is eliciting from this witness.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That is true, Mr. President.  I just rose to

12     my feet just to address Court and perhaps ask guidance from Court whether

13     this would be an appropriate time to warn the witness under Rule 91,

14     considering the -- the move from the original evidence of this witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, of course, I think I'll consult with my

16     colleagues whether we will follow or not follow your suggestion.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber does not follow your suggestion,

20     Ms. Mahindaratne.

21             Mr. Kay, you may please proceed.

22             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Have you got -- oh, you have got your headphones on, Mr. Dzolic.

24     I'm sorry about that.

25             MR. KAY:  I've now forgot my question, if the Court would just

Page 9020

 1     forgive me a moment.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It was about orders.

 3             MR. KAY:  Yes.  There we are, yeah.

 4        Q.   Would it be right to say that you were just invited to go to

 5     those briefings with the other people at General Cermak's office in Knin?

 6        A.   Yes, it would.

 7        Q.   There was no question of him ordering you to go to those

 8     meetings; you viewed this as just being an invitation.

 9        A.   I think that's correct.

10        Q.   And I would like now just to look at a couple of documents that

11     have been in evidence already.

12             MR. KAY:  Could we look at P513, please.

13        Q.   And, Mr. Dzolic, I'm showing you an order signed by General

14     Cermak on the 8th of August concerning the UNCRO UN peacekeeping force,

15     and about their movement on the 8th of August.

16             MR. KAY:  Can we scroll it up a little bit higher, please.  I

17     mean the other way, sorry, down.  Yes, that's it.  Thank you.

18        Q.   And can you see this is signed by General Cermak, dated the

19     8th of August.  It is sent to UNCRO elements, sent to UNCRO.

20             And you were aware, were you not, that United Nations were in a

21     compound within Knin.  Is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may just make a

25     correction, it is not sent to UNCRO elements.  It is sent to the

Page 9021

 1     addressees which are mentioned at the bottom of the document.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check.

 3             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I'm dealing with this.  I'm trying to be

 4     brief.

 5        Q.   You can see on the document that it says down here "Knin military

 6     police."

 7             Can you see that, Mr. Dzolic, bottom left-hand corner?  Can you

 8     see it?  Can you see "Knin military police," bottom left-hand corner?

 9        A.   Yes, I see it.

10        Q.   Did you ever receive this order?

11        A.   I don't remember having received it, no.

12        Q.   Do you recognise this document at all?

13        A.   I can't answer that question.  I don't remember.

14        Q.   If a document was properly addressed to you as the commander of

15     the joint company for Knin of the 72nd, is there a way that it should be

16     particularly written in the address?

17        A.   In the address?

18        Q.   Yes.  Is that the correct way of directing a document to you,

19     putting just those words "Vojnoj Policiji Knin"?

20        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. KAY:  Can we look at the next document, 65 ter 2732.

23        Q.   This is dated the 8th of August, 1995.  It concerns the Croatian

24     army and UNCRO soldiers, it's an order controlling the entrance to the

25     UNCRO barracks, it's about checks on refugees, it's from General Cermak.

Page 9022

 1             First of all, do you recognise this document?

 2        A.   I can't recall this document.

 3        Q.   We see at the bottom left-hand corner of the document it just

 4     says:  "To military police."

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Would that be a correct way to address a document, so that it

 7     reached you as the commander of the joint company in Knin?

 8        A.   It would be more correct if it had said Knin military police;

 9     however, I allow for the possibility that this kind of letter, with this

10     kind of title or name listed in the addresses, could have arrived in my

11     unit.

12             MR. KAY:  Can we turn to the next document, P512.

13             That previous document, may we admit it into evidence, please,

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D788.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D788 is admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. KAY:  May we turn to P512, with my apologies.

21        Q.   This document here, again from General Cermak, is an order about

22     inspecting UNCRO helicopters and various other matters.  It says:  "To

23     military police."

24             Firstly, did you -- do you recognise this document.

25        A.   I can't say with certainty that I do.

Page 9023

 1             MR. KAY:  Next document, D303.

 2        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, this is a document dated the 9th of August, 1995, and

 3     it concerns some UNCRO vehicles that were stolen from the UNCRO base.

 4     And an order was issued by General Cermak, asking for a team of people to

 5     be made up from members of the military police and from the MUP, with the

 6     task of finding UNCRO vehicles that are listed:  A Nissan pick-up, Nissan

 7     Pajero, Toyota Land Cruiser.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, to the extent you are summarizing the

 9     document, the word "asking" should be "ordering" --

10             MR. KAY:  Ah, yes --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- because that is what the document says.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KAY:  Ordering, I will correct that.

14        Q.   First of all, do you recognise this document?

15        A.   I can't say that I do.

16        Q.   Did you ever become involved in searching for UNCRO vehicles,

17     being the two Nissans and a Toyota Land Cruiser in Knin, as part of your

18     duties?

19        A.   I don't remember, but one of our tasks was to search for stolen

20     vehicles, if we had either information or an order concerning that.

21        Q.   You had that as a task obviously; but did you, in particular, in

22     relation to these UNCRO vehicles, did you set up a team from your

23     military police and go out looking for the UNCRO vehicles identified

24     here?  Is that something that you did?

25        A.   I can't assert with any certainty that I did that.  I don't

Page 9024

 1     remember.  But if such an order arrived, then probably the criminal

 2     police were instructed to investigate this, and the patrols were

 3     instructed that should they find such vehicles at -- or if they should

 4     see them at the barrier check-points, that these vehicles should be

 5     confiscated and brought to the police.

 6             MR. KAY:  And one more document we'll look at on this same

 7     issue, D503.

 8        Q.   This document is dated the 12th of August.  Again, it concerns

 9     UNCRO property, engineering equipment, and vehicles that were stolen.

10     And an order by Mr. Cermak was issued, asking for teams to be formed from

11     the MUP, Knin military police, to find a bulldozer, road-leveller,

12     mine sweeper, earth digger, a truck, six other vehicles, and a Land

13     Rover.

14             First of all, do you recognise this --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, you again summarized the document and you

16     made the same mistake as you did before.

17             MR. KAY:  I used the word order, Your Honour, certainly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I heard and I see transcribed "asking" for teams to

19     be formed, and that's what I heard, as a matter of fact.  If I am --

20             MR. KAY:  I used the word --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if I made a mistake, then I did it together with

22     the transcriber, and I do not see anyone else jumping up and saying no,

23     so I clearly heard --

24             MR. CAYLEY:  Excuse me, Judge Orie.  If you look at line 22,

25     page 44, Mr. Kay said:  "And an order by Mr. Cermak was issued, asking

Page 9025

 1     for teams ..."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me just see.

 3             Yes, "an order asking for," and I commented on "asking for."  It

 4     seems even to be -- but I reacted on a word "asking for," because earlier

 5     I did the same for "asking for."  I do agree with Mr. Cayley that you now

 6     combined "an order" and included "asking for."

 7             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, there is nothing hanging on this.  I'm not

 8     playing any games over these two --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  I'm not saying that you're playing games,

10     of course; but there is an issue about whether orders could be given or

11     whether people were invited or asked for certain matters.  That appears

12     to be an issue.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. KAY:  Yeah, very well.

15        Q.   Do you recognise this document?  Sorry.

16             Do you recognise this document, Mr. Dzolic?

17        A.   The document as such is not familiar to me.  I don't remember

18     having seen it.

19        Q.   Did you form any teams looking for UNCRO equipment, such as this?

20        A.   I don't recall having formed a team, and this date as I see is

21     the 12th of August and I had left Knin at that time.  I don't know when

22     this order arrived in Knin.  I don't believe it arrived on the morning of

23     that day.

24        Q.   Although we have looked at some written orders here --

25                           [Technical difficulty]

Page 9026

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  Sorry to interrupt.  Obviously, something is

 2     wrong with the transcript.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Does this problem still exist?

 4                           [Technical difficulty]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently, yes.

 6             We will wait for the technician.

 7             It now says "technical difficult," but it apparently has been

 8     resolved.

 9             Mr. Kay, I may have misunderstood the word "asking" earlier as

10     being equivalent to "seeking" rather than to "request."  That becomes

11     clear to me now.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

14        Q.   We'll resume now, Mr. Dzolic, okay?  Right.

15             Although Mr. Cermak may have issued orders such as these

16     concerning --

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may address Court, I think

18     Mr. Kay's question and last answer of the witness has not been recorded

19     due to the technical difficulty, where the witness said that he left on

20     12th August and he is not certain if the --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That appears not on the transcript.  Perhaps

22     you could invite the witness to repeat everything he said after he said

23     that the document, as such, was not familiar to him.

24             Could you please repeat what you said after you said "I don't

25     remember having seen it," and you added another part.  Could you please

Page 9027

 1     repeat that sentence.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date on the document is the

 3     12th of August, 1995.  That's the day when I left Knin.  I don't know

 4     when this order arrived in the Knin company.

 5             MR. KAY:

 6        Q.   Although General Cermak issued these orders, do you agree that,

 7     in fact, he was not in a position to command you to take these actions;

 8     it was for you to decide whether you undertook any obligation he may have

 9     referred to you?

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object to that question.

11     That is seeking an opinion from the witness.  The facts are before Court.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see.  I'll re-read the question.

13             MR. KAY:  Directly concerns the witness, Your Honour, in fact.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There are several elements in the question.

15     The first one is seeking the judgement of the witness on whether, in the

16     position of Mr. Cermak, he could command the witness; and second is

17     whether he was free not to --

18             MR. KAY:  Undertake.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- undertake any obligation he referred ...

20             If you could just try to split it up in small portions, then

21     we'll find out what the knowledge of the witness is and to what extent

22     you're seeking opinion or judgement or assessment of a certain situation.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. KAY:

25        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, isn't it the case that you did not have to follow any

Page 9028

 1     obligation referred to you by Mr. Cermak?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember and recall the work and the coordination

 3     of work, while I was the company commander in Knin, it's my opinion that

 4     I was not obliged to follow orders of this kind as orders; however, as

 5     information that something had occurred, that is, that certain vehicles

 6     had been stolen, I was supposed to take steps in accordance with my

 7     possibilities to have these vehicles found.  In these cases, a search

 8     warrant should have been issued rather than an order.

 9             Why this is entitled "order" is something I can't say.  I can't

10     go into that.

11        Q.   And would it be right to say that you would not have to report

12     back to Mr. Cermak on any such matter that we have been looking at?

13        A.   I can't say that with any certainty.  As an order, this was not

14     something I had to report about; but if I had found these vehicles, it

15     would have been in order to inform whoever had asked for these vehicles

16     to be searched for.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KAY:  Can we look now at another document dated -- sorry.

19     2D06-0001.

20             This is a document dated the 17th of August, 1995, from the

21     72nd Battalion Military Police.  It is signed by Major -- Commander Major

22     Mihael Budimir and is sent to the companies of the military police.  And

23     in this order, it sets out a rotation of military and police forces.

24             And in paragraph 2, it states:  "First Lieutenant Luka Orsulic is

25     selected as the Knin military police joint company commander, "and names

Page 9029

 1     other officers after him.

 2        Q.   First of all, can you confirm that that is Lieutenant Orsulic who

 3     took over the command of the joint company after you had left on the

 4     12th of August?

 5        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

 6        Q.   And it refers to the rotation in Knin and various details.

 7             Are you able to help us with paragraph 3 as to what that means,

 8     concerning the rotation in Knin?

 9        A.   Paragraph 3, as I understand this order, for the rotation in

10     Knin, the commander of the 1st company of the general military police

11     shall select 29 officers; the 2nd company commander," that was me, "shall

12     select 40 members; and the traffic company commander shall select

13     18 members.

14             The rotation in Knin refers to the forces that were in Knin while

15     I was commander; and when I left, they remained under the command of

16     Captain Luka Orsulic.  And they were sent back to their original units on

17     leave and in their place, members of those companies that are listed in

18     point 3 of this order arrived.

19        Q.   And we see in paragraph 4:  "The crime investigation military

20     police department chief ..."

21             Are you able to tell us who that person was, the name of that

22     individual?

23        A.   Boro Milas.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             "The duty service leader and logistic platoon commander shall

Page 9030

 1     select the rotation for their offices."

 2             Can you explain that paragraph, please, if you are able to?

 3        A.   Are you referring to paragraph 4?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   Paragraph 4 of this order makes the crime investigation military

 6     police department chief, the duty service leader, and the logistic

 7     platoon leader responsible for selecting their officers.  The officers

 8     who are on the ground would be brought back, and they would be replaced

 9     by other officers who would be designated in that work sector.

10        Q.   This would not be a function, then, of the commander of the joint

11     company in Knin, Lieutenant Orsulic.  Is that right?

12        A.   I am not following you.  What do you mean?  Which function was

13     not the function of Lieutenant Orsulic?

14        Q.   The crime investigation department of the military police

15     organised itself and its rotation of staff.  Is that right?

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, this same pattern, and when I

17     attempted yesterday, you know, Mr. Kay would insist on foundation.  Now I

18     would insist, Mr. President, that -- what is the foundation.  The

19     witness -- is the witness aware of these rotations or is he just merely

20     commenting on this document?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  He is invited to comment on the document, and the

22     question Mr. Kay puts to the witness suggests that he has knowledge of

23     what happened.  And I agree with you that it would certainly better

24     assist the Chamber if we would know about the source of knowledge which

25     goes beyond what we find in the document.

Page 9031

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

 2             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             I did identify through the witness, hoping that that matter was

 4     dealt with, who the particular chief was, which obviously the witness

 5     knew, and then sought --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But this question goes further.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I will --

 9        Q.   Were you aware, from your position and work in the 72nd Battalion

10     of the military police, of the operations -- of the methods of operating

11     of the crime investigation department of the military police?

12        A.   I was not aware of the methods of their operating.

13        Q.   Yeah.

14             MR. KAY:  I won't detain any more time on this, Your Honour; it's

15     controversial.

16             Can we go to document 65 ter 2984.

17             May the last document be admitted into evidence.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D789.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D789 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. KAY:  65 ter 2984 is a document dated 22nd of August, and

23     it's from the military police administration, sent to the 66th Battalion

24     of the military police.  It concerns the safety of the Knin command post

25     commander, General Cermak.  It's an order.  It concerns an analysis in

Page 9032

 1     relation to the purpose of security of him.

 2             It's an order that the commander of the 72nd Military Police will

 3     conduct all the necessary steps for General Cermak's security whilst

 4     moving or still from the -- from the forces of the 7th Company, and it

 5     gives various steps.

 6             We see in paragraph 3 that it refers to Lieutenant Orsulic again,

 7     and that's the order signed by a commander Colonel Damir Kozic, which is

 8     on page of the English.

 9        Q.   First of all, do you know who Colonel Kozic is?

10        A.   Colonel Damir Kozic was, I believe, the chief of the general

11     military police section in the military police administration.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we go back to the first page of the English,

13     because reading the signature again and again is not very exciting.

14             MR. KAY:  Yes.

15        Q.   This concerns security of General Cermak being ordered to be

16     provided by the 7th Company of the Knin military police.  You told us, is

17     it right, that it was the joint company while you were there but it later

18     became the Knin 7th Company?  Is that right?

19        A.   That is right.

20        Q.   Yes.  And to order such measures for the security of General

21     Cermak, is that a usual route, is that the proper way for the military

22     police to deal with the matter through the military police

23     administration?

24        A.   As I understand it, it is the proper way to carry out assignments

25     of this type.

Page 9033

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this be admitted into evidence,

 3     please.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D790.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D790 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. KAY:  One other document to look at, 2D06-0013.

 9             This is a document dated the 21st of August from the commander of

10     the military police in Knin, Lieutenant Orsulic, who sent this matter to

11     the military police administration.  It's a report on carrying out

12     security.  It concerns security on the 19th of August, 1995, when the

13     military police in Knin secured a Ministry of Defence working group

14     touring military facilities with two military policemen, and informs what

15     happened.

16        Q.   This report from Lieutenant Orsulic goes to the military police

17     administration.

18             Is that a correct way to report on such a matter, within the

19     military police?

20        A.   I cannot state that with any certainty.

21             What do I mean?  This type of report, in my view, was to be sent

22     to the 72nd Company [as interpreted] of the military police.  That would

23     have been the regular procedure.  Then from there, it would be forwarded

24     to the administration.

25             However, it is possible that based on an order by the military

Page 9034

 1     police administration, which would have had to contain their use,

 2     employment in this type of assignment, it is possible that such an order

 3     had an item where it stated that the commander of the -- of the

 4     7th Company, in this case, Lieutenant Orsulic, could directly address the

 5     addressee, within the police administration -- military police

 6     administration.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have look at the left bottom part of the

 8     English.  Yes.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I may, could just address

10     Court, at page 8 [sic], line 15, there's a reference to "72nd Company,"

11     and that could be a translation error.  I just wanted to point that out.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 8 of today's transcript.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  At line 15, I just wanted

14     to bring to Your Honours' attention so that maybe you could ...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. KAY:  Thank you.  If Your Honour is finished with this

17     document, I have no further questions on it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I was just looking at it, but I had to then switch

19     to LiveNote to look at it.  No, I was just -- could it be moved up again

20     now a little bit.

21             Yes.  Thank you.

22             MR. KAY:  And maybe just to, as I think about it, help on this

23     matter.

24        Q.   As you said, the usual way of reporting would have been from the

25     Knin company up to the commander of the 72nd Battalion, who was Major

Page 9035

 1     Budimir at that time.  Isn't that right?

 2        A.   That is right.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             On another matter --

 5             MR. KAY:  May that document be admitted into evidence, please,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D791.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D791 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

12        Q.   On another matter, I want to ask you a question now about your --

13     your statement.

14             MR. KAY:  May we have P875, please, produced, and go to

15     paragraph 37.

16        Q.   I want you to look carefully at paragraph 37 of this statement,

17     please, Mr. Dzolic, and if you could just read it to yourself for a

18     moment.

19        A.   I've read it.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'm interested in these words, which say:  "The way I

21     understood it was that I was still under the command of Colonel Budimir,

22     but that I was also under the command of General Cermak, and I was to

23     obey any order that General Cermak gave me."

24             And it's that passage there that I want to ask you questions

25     about.  Do you understand?

Page 9036

 1        A.   I think I do.

 2        Q.   Are those your words, Mr. Dzolic?  Did you say that:  "The way I

 3     understood it was that I was still under the command of Colonel Budimir,

 4     but that I was also under the command of General Cermak, and I was to

 5     obey any order that General Cermak gave me."

 6             Did you say that?

 7        A.   I don't think that's the way I put it.

 8        Q.   Is that statement wrong?

 9        A.   For a part, yes.

10        Q.   Is it wrong to say that you were under the command of General

11     Cermak and to obey any order that General Cermak gave you?

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If I may address Court, I think perhaps this

15     is an appropriate time to again renew my application under Rule 91.

16             MR. KAY:  No.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MR. KAY:  And I would like to make submissions on the matter, if

19     it is appropriate for me to do so, in case of anything the Court might

20     do.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's still a reason to make submissions on the

22     matter, if you would know that the Chamber will not follow the suggestion

23     by Ms. Mahindaratne, then you are free to do so; but the Chamber will not

24     follow the suggestion.

25             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 9037

 1        Q.   Can I ask the question again, Mr. Dzolic?  We've had an

 2     interruption, and you may have forgotten it.

 3             Is it wrong, as written here, that "... I was also under the

 4     command of General Cermak, and I was to obey any order that General

 5     Cermak gave me."

 6        A.   As I understand this statement, it is incorrect.

 7        Q.   First of all, is it wrong to say you were under the command of

 8     General Cermak?

 9        A.   I was not under the command of General Cermak; I was under the

10     command of Colonel Budimir.

11        Q.   Is it wrong to say that you were to obey any order that General

12     Cermak gave you?

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. KAY:  I have no further questions.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

17             Mr. Mikulicic, you'll be next in line.

18             Mr. Dzolic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic, who

19     is counsel for Mr. Markac.

20             Please proceed.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Dzolic.

24             I am counsel for General Markac, and I will put a few questions

25     to you.  And I realize that a lot of time has elapsed since 1995, but I

Page 9038

 1     would appreciate if, to the best of your recollection, can you go back to

 2     those events.

 3             Mr. Dzolic, do you know General Markac?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm sorry to interrupt you.  I wasn't looking at the

 5     clock when you started your cross-examination.  Rather than to interrupt

 6     after five or six minutes, perhaps it is better that we take the break

 7     first and that you then, in one breath, can do your cross-examination

 8     rather than to be interrupted.

 9             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, I appreciate your suggestions, Your Honour.

10     That would be suitable for Markac Defence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll first have a break, and we'll resume at a

12     quarter to 1.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, please proceed.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dzolic, good afternoon one more time.

18             My question, before we took the break, was the following:  Do you

19     know General Markac?

20        A.   Not in person.  I just know of him from the media and from the

21     papers.

22        Q.   Do you know what his function was at the time of Operation Storm?

23        A.   No, I don't.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar please pull

25     up document 65 ter 318.

Page 9039

 1        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, in a moment, we will see the rules on the structure

 2     and work of the military police of the armed forces of the Croatia.

 3             Have you had opportunity to see this -- these rules earlier?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   These rules are dated February 1994.  Can you confirm that

 6     this -- these same rules were in force in the second half of 1995?

 7        A.   I believe that is right.

 8             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 2 of

 9     these rules, Article 4, ERN 707; page 2 of the body of the text.  This is

10     just the contents page; so, in fact, if we could see page 4.  Thank you.

11        Q.   We will now go through these rules, Mr. Dzolic.

12             It is stated here that members of the military police, and I'm

13     referring to Article 4, were active military personnel, part of whom were

14     organised in military police anti-terrorist units and who had the status

15     of professionals.

16             Speaking of anti-terrorist units, are you familiar with these

17     units and do you know what their tasks were in 1995 in August and

18     onwards?

19        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

20        Q.   Or perhaps we can approach this from another angle.

21             Article 4 of this -- of these rules speaks of anti-terrorist

22     units.  You can see that, right?

23        A.   Yes, I can.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Article 11 of the rules -- could

25     we please pull up Article 11, and that's two pages on.

Page 9040

 1        Q.    Article 11 of these rules states that anti-terrorist units of

 2     the military police are to carry out tasks as contained in Article 9, as

 3     it says here, and that that is their primary purpose.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  But I would like it point out to the Judges that

 5     there is obviously an error here, because Article 9 only has one item, so

 6     reference should be made here to Article 10, which has several

 7     subparagraphs.

 8        Q.   So the primary purpose of the anti-terrorist units of the

 9     military police is, according to those rules - and now I'm quoting

10     Articles 8 and 9 of -- or paragraphs 8 and 9 of Article 10 - is to carry

11     out -- to participate in combat with sabotage and other enemy units, and

12     in providing -- and providing security --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last portion

14     of the Article.

15             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Are these rules in keeping with your understanding of what it is

17     that the military police are to do?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreter could not hear the last portion of

19     the Article.

20             Could you please repeat that, Mr. Mikulicic.

21             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, I will, Your Honour.  I'm just checking

22     transcript.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] I quote:  "The role and purpose of

24     anti-terrorist units under these rules," specifically in Article 8 -- or,

25     rather, item 8 of Article 10, where it is stated that "those units

Page 9041

 1     participate in the fight against sabotage, terrorist, rebel, and other

 2     enemy groups."

 3             Is that in keeping with how you understand the role of

 4     anti-terrorist units of the military police?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, please tell me this:  Were there any members of

 7     anti-terrorist units in your company while you were in Knin?

 8        A.   I don't remember that there were such members in my company.

 9        Q.   Let us go back now to Article 5 of these rules describing the

10     uniform of the members of the military police.

11             In peace and war, members of military police in the service wear

12     the official HV uniform, a white belt, a while pistol holster, a pistol,

13     a white baton, restraining devices, and a military police shield on a

14     regulation base attached to the upper pocket on the left side of their

15     upper garment.

16             Can you see that portion, Mr. Dzolic?

17        A.   Yes, I can.

18        Q.   Can you tell us, please, what colour was this official uniform

19     and what did it consist of?

20        A.   At what point in time?  Which period do you have in mind?

21        Q.   I am referring to the months of August, September, and October,

22     in 1995; in other words, during and after Operation Storm.

23        A.   Your Honour, I can't remember exactly.  I do not have the image

24     in front of my eyes what the uniform that was worn at that time was like.

25     I assume, because there were combat activities on, that we were in

Page 9042

 1     camouflage uniforms.  However, there was a period of time when military

 2     police units had, let's call them, drab-colour uniforms, solid colour.

 3             Now, what exact time -- at what exact time this uniform was worn,

 4     I cannot really say for certain.

 5        Q.   Can you remember, did anti-terrorist units have the same uniforms

 6     as the general military police or did they wear some other type of

 7     uniform?

 8        A.   I think that members of the anti-terrorist units also had drab --

 9     olive-drab uniforms.  I'm not sure, and I cannot claim this with any

10     degree of certainty.

11        Q.   Do you remember what the belt was like, what colour was it, and

12     also what was the colour of the pistol holster?  I'm referring to the

13     members of the anti-terrorist unit.

14        A.   They wore green military belts.

15        Q.   It seems obvious from your answer that the belt was not white, as

16     in the -- as with the uniforms of the general military police.  Correct?

17        A.   That's right.  However, there were times when anti-terrorist

18     units, if that was necessary, during security assignments they could also

19     wear, as required, white belts.

20        Q.   Can you remember what caps members of the anti-terrorist units

21     wore, what kind of caps?

22        A.   I can't say with certainty, but I think they were black berets,

23     like those worn by all members of the military police battalion.

24        Q.   Do you remember that on these black berets there were two badges

25     on the front?

Page 9043

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us what badges these were?

 3        A.   There was the coat of arms, the badge of the military police; and

 4     the coat of armies, which was the badge of the anti-terrorist units of

 5     the military police.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Article 7 of these rules refers to motor vehicles of

 7     the military police, and motor vehicles of the military police shall be

 8     painted green, while the door and the cover -- or, rather, the engine

 9     hoods and the back will be painted white; the trunk lid are paint the

10     white; and that motor vehicles are marked at the front doors; and the

11     engine hoods with the a triangular sign, that there is a stylized falcon

12     with the words "military police."

13             This corresponds to your description, Mr. Dzolic?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   Article 10 of the same rules refers to the tasks and assignments

16     carried out by the military police and the scope of activities, and it

17     contains a description of the jobs and tasks; that is, the protection of

18     life and security of all persons, prevention and uncovering of crimes,

19     identification and arrest of perpetrators of crimes.

20             These are, in fact, tasks from the purview of crime military

21     police?

22        A.   What tasks do you mean?

23        Q.   Uncovering crimes, discovering and arresting perpetrators of

24     crimes within the jurisdiction of military judicial bodies, these were

25     the tasks of the crime police.  Is that right?

Page 9044

 1        A.   Is that paragraph 1?

 2        Q.   That's paragraph 2.

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4        Q.   Item 3 refers to the safety of road traffic, military road

 5     traffic; and this was done by the traffic unit of the military police.

 6     Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did the members of that unit, compared to other units of the

 9     military police, have special insignia on their uniforms?

10        A.   Are you referring to the military police traffic police?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   Sometimes, I think, when checking road traffic, they had white

13     sleeve covers.  I'm not sure whether they always wore them.

14        Q.   Did they also - that is, the members of the traffic military

15     police - have those stop signs they would use to stop traffic?

16        A.   Yes, and it said military police on those.

17        Q.   All right.  Article 12, towards the bottom of the page, it says,

18     in chapter IV, which refers to the powers of the members of the military

19     police, and it goes on in Article 15, to speak in detail of those powers.

20             So let's look at Article 15, and we will see that, according the

21     rules, the military police has the following powers, and then there are

22     several pages detailing the powers of the military police.  These are

23     warning; and then under 2, identification; item 3, submitting a report,

24     and that's on the next page; then 4, bringing in.

25             It says here that members of the military police bring in

Page 9045

 1     military personnel and civilians when they are perpetrators of a crime

 2     that falls within the jurisdiction of a military court.

 3             Does this correspond to your recollection and the practice that

 4     prevailed while you were in Knin?

 5        A.   Yes, it does.

 6        Q.   Bringing persons in could be done pursuant it a court order, or

 7     to an arrest warrant, or if the person was caught in the act while

 8     violating military discipline or committing a crime; and all this was the

 9     job of the military police, among other jobs.  Then item 5 deals with

10     detention.

11             Mr. Dzolic, in your company, did you have any premises in Knin

12     where you could detain persons who had been caught committing a crime or

13     for whom an arrest warrant had been issued until you could hand them over

14     to the appropriate court?

15        A.   I don't remember that we had any special premises used to detain

16     people.

17        Q.   What, then, was the procedure?  If a person needed to be deprived

18     of their liberty for these reasons, either because they had been caught

19     in the act committing a crime or a breach of discipline or if an arrest

20     warrant had been issued for that person, what would you do?

21        A.   Could you repeat your question, please.

22        Q.   If, in practice, the need arose for a person to be deprived of

23     their liberty, what would you do?

24        A.   You mean in Knin?

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 9046

 1        A.   While I was the commander?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   We would temporarily detain that person in a room that was

 4     available, and as soon as the conditions were in place to escort that

 5     person to military detention facilities which existed in Split.  We

 6     didn't have them.  The person would be escorted to the military detention

 7     facility in Split.

 8             Also, if the need arose for that person to be brought before an

 9     investigate military judge, the person would be taken with an escort to

10     the appropriate Military Court.

11             However, I wish to mention that during the time I was the

12     commander there, I don't remember any such cases occurring.

13        Q.   Thank you for that reply.

14             Then is the further powers of the military police, according to

15     the rules we have on our screen.  We've been through detention.  On the

16     next page, item 6, we have use of physical force; use of batons;

17     restraining.

18             So these were the powers that the military police had at their

19     disposal.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Likewise, Mr. Dzolic, in certain situations as a military

22     policeman, and the members of your company were able to use other means

23     of coercion and even weapons.  Is that correct?

24        A.   If the need arose in line with our power, yes, that would be

25     correct.

Page 9047

 1        Q.   You were also able to use dogs for protection and for searches.

 2     Did you have this possibility?

 3        A.   While I was in Knin, we didn't have such units.

 4        Q.   And now, Mr. Dzolic, we come to item 12, which speaks of the

 5     powers of the military police to search homes, other premises, and

 6     persons.  And it says here that members of the military crime police or

 7     other authorise the personnel of the military police could search

 8     apartments, premises, and persons; and it says here in what cases this

 9     could be done and whether a search warrant was needed from a court,

10     whether it was one a person was caught in the act of committing a crime

11     or asking for assistance, and so on.

12             Mr. Dzolic, my question is the following:  During the time you

13     were in Knin, was this power of the military police used?  Did your

14     military policemen, when needed, search homes and other premises in the

15     area where you were responsible?

16        A.   If the need arose, yes, this was done.

17        Q.   One more question in question to these rules, Mr. Dzolic.  I'm

18     referring to Article 62, which says that a citizen of the Republic of

19     Croatia, who is not a member of the Croatian army, in other words a

20     civilian, and who has been deprived of his liberty because he has been

21     caught in the act committing a crime, falling within the jurisdiction of

22     an another regular court, is to be taken immediately by the authorised

23     military policeman to another -- to a local body of the Ministry of

24     Interior with a report on the crime committed and the grounds for arrest.

25             So this is the situation where -- this is a situation where a

Page 9048

 1     military policeman has to intervene in relation to a civilian and such

 2     things did happen, did they not?

 3        A.   I don't remember any such situation.

 4        Q.   Do you agree that, in accordance with the rules, the military

 5     police were authorised to intervene in relation to civilians, in certain

 6     situations; for example, when the civilian was caught committing a crime,

 7     either on his own or together with military person, a member of the

 8     military?

 9        A.   Yes, I agree.

10        Q.   Thank you for your responses.

11             MR. MIKULICIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... into

12     evidence, please.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, this is included in the 92 ter

14     submission, this document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If that is the case, Mr. Mikulicic, it should be a

16     P exhibit.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It would be on the list which we have not yet

19     finally received, I think; but then there is no need to tender it.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  That's all the same for me, whether it is in

21     evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It is in evidence; that's the important thing.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, I asked you at the outset whether you knew General

Page 9049

 1     Markac.  If I remind you that General Markac was the commander of the

 2     special police of the Ministry of Interior, does that jog your memory?

 3     Are you aware of this fact?

 4        A.   Well, yes, as I already said, I know about it from the media and

 5     from television.

 6        Q.   In your previous testimony, you said that the military police

 7     cooperated with and coordinated certain actions with the civilian police

 8     of the Ministry of Interior.  I am thinking especially of barrier

 9     check-points, patrols, and similar situations.  That is correct, is it

10     not?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   To the best of your recollection, was there any such cooperation

13     with the members of the special police of the Ministry of Interior?

14        A.   I don't remember that in Knin itself.  I don't remember that

15     there was such cooperation.

16        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, judging by external characteristics, would you be

17     able to recognise a member of the special police of the Ministry of

18     Interior if you were to run into such a person?

19        A.   Yes, I would, if he had all the insignia on him.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, may I seek clarification of one of

21     the previous answers.

22             When asked whether there was such cooperation between the

23     military police and the members of the special police of the Ministry of

24     Interior, you said:  "I don't remember that in Knin itself."

25             Do you have any recollection as to whether such cooperation

Page 9050

 1     existed outside of Knin?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, but I do allow

 3     for the possibility that there was such cooperation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Let's go back to this question:  Are you

 8     referring to cooperation in combat activities during the combat that was

 9     part of Operation Storm, or after the end of Operation Storm?

10        A.   Could you repeat your question, please.

11        Q.   When asked by His Honour, you now you said you an allowed for the

12     possibility that somewhere outside Knin itself there might have been

13     cooperation between members of the military police of the Ministry of

14     Defence and the special police of the Ministry of Interior.

15             My question is the following:  When you said that, were you

16     thinking of cooperation in the course of combat activities as part of

17     Operation Storm, or were you referring to cooperation after the end of

18     Operation Storm?

19        A.   I'm not aware of any such cooperation in the course of Operation

20     Storm, which does not exclude the possibility; but I was primarily

21     thinking of before and after Operation Storm, in carrying out tasks of

22     providing security for the supreme commander and similar tasks.

23        Q.   Thank you for that response.

24             Mr. Dzolic, I would now like to refer to paragraph 13,

25     Exhibit 517, where you said that you had occasion to familiarize yourself

Page 9051

 1     through training with the rules of war.  Do you recall that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that each member of the police, in the course of

 4     this training, was issued a booklet with a short version of the rules of

 5     war?

 6        A.   If I recall -- the way I recall it, it should be correct.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ... booklet

 8     already in the evidence under D533.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dzolic, military police members had to

10     undergo special training when compared to other members of the Croatian

11     army.  That is indisputable, isn't it?

12        A.   Do you mean did I have to be trained or dressed in different

13     uniforms?

14        Q.   I mean trained.  They had to undergo a different type of training

15     as compared to other members of the Croatian army?

16        A.   Well, part of their training would have to be specialised

17     training which other soldiers would not have to undergo.

18        Q.   Were there any especially trained de-mining expert in your

19     company?

20        A.   I don't recall that there were any such members in my company.

21        Q.   In your 2004 statement, paragraph 22 and 35, you said that when

22     you arrived in Knin, you set up check-points at the outskirts or on the

23     approaches to the town.

24             Can you remember, was it immediately after your arrival that the

25     check-points were manned by both members of the military police and the

Page 9052

 1     regular police, or not?

 2        A.   As far as I can recall, when we first arrived there, we did not

 3     have joint barrier check-points.

 4        Q.   And later on?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know what you mean by "later on."  I can't really

 6     be sure; but as far as I can remember, we manned the barrier check-points

 7     together later on.

 8        Q.   One of the purposes of these check-points was to search

 9     individuals and vehicles that went or drove through the check-point.

10     Correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Were there instances where you resorted to the powers as derived

13     from the rules that we saw a minute ago?  I'm referring to detention of

14     individuals that were in a motor vehicle -- or, rather, the confiscation

15     of items found in the vehicles, which pointed to the possibility of team

16     that having been confiscated in the course of a criminal act?

17        A.   I can't recall specifically, but it is possible that there were

18     such cases.

19        Q.   Do you remember if there was a special warehouse that was set up

20     to house these items?

21        A.   While I was the company commander, I don't remember that we had

22     any particular warehouse or depot.

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see P879.

24        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, I will now show you a document that has been

25     introduced by the Prosecution of -- dated the 5th of August, 1995, that

Page 9053

 1     was submitted by Major Juric, and it referred to August 5.

 2             You've already seen this document, but I would like now to

 3     discuss item -- or paragraph 6 of this document, where it is stated that

 4     the military police has searched the terrain and the villages of Vrlika

 5     and Knin, some portions of them.

 6             Could you tell us what kind of operation was this, the search of

 7     the terrain, and who in the military police would carry out such an

 8     operation of searches of the terrain?

 9        A.   I can't remember this because this was not even in my area,

10     Vrlika and Knin.  I can't remember this.  It says here that the terrain

11     was searched, in part, and reference is made to Vrlika and Knin.  I don't

12     recall who was involved in this.  It wasn't my company.

13        Q.   All right.  Let's move on.

14             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see document,

15     since we mentioned Major Juric, D2868 --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  D268, interpreter's correction.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I have to correct

18     myself.  If we're talking about the search of the terrain and the city

19     itself, it is possible that we were involved in this; but I don't

20     understand what the author of this report, Major Juric, meant, when he

21     said the searches of terrain.

22             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the second

23     page of this order.

24        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, this is an order that you have already seen today.

25     It was shown -- it was issued by the chief of the military police

Page 9054

 1     administration, Lausic, where certain tasks and authorities are conferred

 2     on Major Juric.  It is stated here that Major Juric is to be the

 3     commander of the 72nd and 73rd Battalion of the military police, that he

 4     is responsible for the implementation of all police tasks, that he shall

 5     cooperate and coordinate the implementation of tasks with the workers of,

 6     and then it lists the Zadar-Knin police administration, the Sibenik and

 7     Split Dalmatia, then the assistant for SIS, the security and information

 8     service of Split, the chief of the SIS, and the Croatian army commanders

 9     in the Split area of responsibility and Sjever area of responsibility.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, since Mr. Mikulicic is reading

12     back, what we have in the English translation is that --

13             If we could go back, Mr. Registrar, to page 1.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  I was reading from page 1 of the original text.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  What is says is that he is superior to

16     72nd military police and 73rd military police commanders with regard to

17     73rd, and so on.

18             Now Mr. Mikulicic read it as it is stated here that Major Juric

19     is to be the commander of the 72nd and 73rd battalion, so perhaps the

20     exact language being read back might --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently, there seems to be an issue there.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  If I said so there, it is my mistake obviously.

23     It is written that he is not commander.  Okay.  I think that is my

24     mistake.  I apologise, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But you were reading the tasks that were assigned to

Page 9055

 1     Major Juric --

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  That was my primarily --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... whether commander or not.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC: -- intention.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Dzolic, we can see here that no mention is made of members or

 8     units of the special police of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic

 9     of Croatia.  From your recollection, was Soldier Ivan Juric ever a

10     superior to the units of the special police of the Ministry of Interior

11     of the Republic of Croatia?

12        A.   I wouldn't know that.

13        Q.   I would now like to explore your statement, and I mean

14     paragraph 32 of your 1994 -- 2004 statement, where you said that on the

15     6th of August, 1995, there were 140 to 150 military policemen in Knin and

16     that there were some difficulties in their work.

17             And in your statement of 2008, you said, in Article 8, that there

18     was not a sufficient number of military policemen and that there should

19     have been at least twice as military policemen.

20             Could you tell us what led you to the conclusion that the number

21     of military policemen was insufficient to carry out the tasks in Knin

22     while you were there?

23        A.   In addition to an insufficient number of men to provide security

24     that was required in order to carry them out, because the area was slowly

25     expanding and we needed a far greater number of officers, in order to

Page 9056

 1     cover the entire area, as it was being done in Knin town itself.

 2        Q.   However, as time went by, units -- or, rather, military police

 3     stations were also formed in other towns.  You're aware of that, right?

 4        A.   Yes, I know of that.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 1614

 6     on the screens.

 7        Q.   This is another order of -- issued by Mate Lausic, dated

 8     5 August 1995, where he orders that units of the military police be

 9     established; and as you can see in the penultimate paragraph, mention is

10     made of a platoon of military police in Gracac and one platoon of

11     military police in Donji Lapac.

12             Were you aware of this process of setting up new units in the

13     newly liberated towns an areas?

14        A.   I was not aware of it, at least not as far as these areas

15     mentioned here are concerned, except that I know that the joint company

16     came to Knin and established a company there, and I assumed that it is

17     possible that it was as it's stated here.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I just have been advised by my case

20     manager that this document, as well, is on the bar table list from the

21     Prosecution that has been submitted.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll have a look at that list, yes.

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  And --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

25                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 9057

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's correct, Mr. President.  It is included

 2     in the 92 ter submission.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll have a look at the list of annexes.

 4             Mr. Mikulicic.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  It's the very same situation, Your Honour,

 6     as regards to two other documents that I was intend to show the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  And this is the document -- well, the one is --

 9     no, my mistake.  Sorry.  These are documents already tendered as

10     evidence.  One is D399, which is about the establishment of the platoon

11     of military police in Gracac on 7th of August, 1995; and the other one is

12     D293, from 8th of August, that has been finished the establishment of the

13     platoon, military police, in Gracac, and in Donji Lapac is finished with

14     an establishment of the military police station in Donji Lapac.

15             So I'm just referring to those two documents.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is D293, and did you say D399?

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  Right, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you are drawing your attention to the

19     relevance of those documents in relation to the testimony of this

20     witness.

21             MR. MIKULICIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... established in those

22     two cities.

23             May I proceed, Your Honour?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may.  I would like, however, that you

25     finish in two or three minutes, so that we have three or four minutes

Page 9058

 1     left to deal with some procedural matters.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  Let me check my subjects.

 3             Yes.  I would like just one more topic, which shouldn't be too

 4     long.

 5             May I?  Okay.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dzolic, I have one more question and then we

 7     will finish up for today, and I mean the creation of the duty service of

 8     the military police.

 9             You have already explained what their function was.  What I would

10     like to know is:  What was the level of cooperation between the duty

11     service of the military police with the -- with the counterpart, the duty

12     service of the civilian police of the Ministry of Interior.

13             Could you comment on that?

14        A.   No, I can't.  I can't recall what the level of cooperation was.

15     Please don't misunderstand me.  There probably was some cooperation, the

16     operative duty services, but I don't know what the parameters were of

17     that cooperation.

18             MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ...

19             [No interpretation]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

21             You will be further cross-examined by the Gotovina Defence.

22             MR. MISETIC:  My understanding is Mr. Mikulicic will continue in

23     the morning.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will continue in the morning for about half an

25     hour or so.

Page 9059

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You will continue in the morning, and you said how

 2     much?  You said half an hour, yes.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear to me.

 5             Mr. Dzolic, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning in another

 6     courtroom, Courtroom I, at 9.00, so that your cross-examination can be

 7     continued; and perhaps you will be further re-examined and perhaps

 8     questions by the Bench will be put to you.

 9             I again instruct you that you should not speak with anyone,

10     whoever it is, about the testimony, whether already given or still to be

11     given.

12             Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

13     courtroom.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the programme for testimony.

16             Mr. Mikulicic, you said you would need half an hour.

17             And then, Mr. Misetic?

18             MR. MISETIC:  I had asked for two hours.  I am going to be under

19     that, Your Honour.  I am going to try, try, to stay at about an hour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  About an hour.  That would mean that there is a

21     possibility that we could finish the cross-examination within the first

22     session.

23             Ms. Mahindaratne, then re-examination, how much time you think

24     you would need?

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, based on the material, of

Page 9060

 1     course, this is without the Gotovina case --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not inviting you to guess on what time.  Of

 3     course, as matters stand now, there is always --

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  As matters stand now, Mr. President, it would

 5     be about 20 minutes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  About 20 minutes.  Which means that if the Chamber

 7     would have some questions as well, that we might finish in the second

 8     session tomorrow morning.

 9             Now, we know that there is another witness waiting, the witness

10     who will be called next, and who is scheduled, from what I understand,

11     for examination-in-chief of one hour, is it?  Ms. Mahindaratne, will it

12     be you?

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President, that would be

14     Mr. Hedaraly --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... aware of that, yes.  So

16     that would be one hour.  I have got no idea on how much time the Defence

17     would need for cross-examination because we are considering whether

18     there's a possibility at all to have a bit more time than perhaps

19     tomorrow in the afternoon, so that we can finish the cross-examination,

20     but that heavily depends on the estimates of the time needed for the next

21     witness.

22             Mr. Kehoe.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  I probably have two, two and a half hours

24     perhaps.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Two, two and half hours.

Page 9061

 1             Mr. Cayley.

 2             MR. CAYLEY:  Presently, Your Honour, we don't have any

 3     cross-examination for this witness, but we might reconsider our position

 4     tomorrow.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  It is the same position with Markac Defence, Your

 7     Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That would mean that with an extended session

 9     tomorrow, that there is an fair chance that we would be able to hear the

10     testimony of the next witness.

11             Is there any problem as far as Defence teams are concerned to

12     continue tomorrow in the afternoon?

13             MR. KAY:  There's no problem, Your Honour, but this is an matter

14     I have to raise with you in relation to my attendance tomorrow.  But

15     perhaps I could deal with that after you have conclude this.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It would not be an obstacle for -- okay.

17             Then Mr. Registrar was exploring the possibilities.  We have no

18     final answer yet.  What will be possible or will not be possible is still

19     to be seen, but the parties should prepare for a continued session

20     tomorrow in the afternoon.  I take it that it would be mainly the

21     Gotovina cross-examination that would take substantial time tomorrow.

22             Yes.  Thank you for this information.  You will be kept updated

23     by either Chamber staff or by Mr. Registrar about what to expect.

24             Mr. Kay, there was a matter you would like to raise.

25             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, unfortunately, I'm not able to be here

Page 9062

 1     tomorrow for very good reasons of a longstanding nature that have to be

 2     dealt with and can only be dealt with tomorrow, and a matter that has

 3     been scheduled for sometime.

 4             Mr. Cayley will be in charge of the ship in my absence and

 5     dealing with matters arising.  There is no disrespect intended to the

 6     Court or the witness, but it was anticipated originally that the witness

 7     would be shorter in direct examination when I spoke to Mr. Hedaraly and

 8     Mr. Waespi earlier in the week.  It didn't turn out that way, but it's

 9     one of those matters.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's one of the advantages of counsel and

11     co-counsel, that the one can take care if the other is not available.

12             MR. KAY:  I'm grateful.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I don't think at this moment there are any --

14     oh, yes, there is one tiny little matter.  Today someone said that he --

15     when something was done not exactly as it should have been done, someone

16     said that Mr. Monkhouse -- that he sent his apologies to Mr. Monkhouse;

17     whereas, our usher usually deals with cutting out the relevant portions

18     on our screen.  And I just would not let it happen that the role of the

19     usher is ignored, so I put this as a correction on the record.

20             If there's nothing else, Mr. Misetic.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, there is one matter.  I don't know but

22     I am advised by e-mail about MFI P887.  I don't know if the Prosecution

23     intended to tender that exhibit or not; but if so --

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if that is a reference to -- I

25     believe Mr. Misetic is referring to document 2406?

Page 9063

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Correct.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President, that was not included in

 3     the 92 ter submission and that was merely in the exhibit list, and I did

 4     not tender it in the course of direct examination.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it can be stricken as number 8 from the list.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I want it get rid of this list now as soon as

 8     possible; that is, on this list, we see 65 ter numbers 318, 1614, 1999,

 9     456, 5445, 1433, 5467.

10             Numbers were assigned by Mr. Registrar P880 up to and including

11     P886; and since there are no objections, they're all admitted into

12     evidence.

13             Now, Mr.  Registrar, number 8 is off this list, which means that

14     1598 remains.  Would that keep the same number or would it have to be

15     renumbered?

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  65 ter number 1598 now is assigned number P887,

18     that's different from what we saw on our list, and is also admitted into

19     evidence.

20             We adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, Courtroom I.

21                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

22                            to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of

23                            September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.