1 Thursday, 25 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness.
12 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Mr. President. If just before calling the
13 next witness we could tender the exhibits from Witness 167.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We had them on our list, numbers provisionally
15 assigned to them by the registrar. Are there any objections?
16 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, on behalf of the Gotovina Defence,
17 Mr. Misetic had a personal matter to attend to, I'm not sure if he was
18 aware these were going to be tendered right now. I would just ask --
19 give him the opportunity -- we can tender them and give him the
20 opportunity just to review them and see if he had any further objections.
21 I simply don't know if he does or he doesn't.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's rather than dealing with part of the list now,
23 leaving out one or two, let's focus on the list soon and not at this
24 moment deal with it.
25 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Mr. President. I will communicate with
1 Mr. Misetic and we can reach agreement. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then I do understand that there might be
3 quite some time next week to deal with these kind --
4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- these kind of matters. So that we now would
6 prefer to continue hearing evidence of witnesses.
7 You're ready to call your next witness.
8 No protective measures.
9 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. Russo will be calling the next witness, so I
10 will step aside, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Mr. Russo, your next witness would be.
13 MR. RUSSO: Your Honours, the Prosecution calls Witness 154,
14 Colonel Robert Williams.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher is already on her way to accompany the
16 witness into the courtroom.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Williams. Before you give
19 evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you
20 to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole
21 truth and nothing but the truth. May I invite to you make that solemn
22 declaration of which the text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Williams. Please be seated.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Williams, I see that you appear in uniform in
3 court. I have the habit of addressing military and non-military people
4 all by just saying Mr. Williams. That has got nothing to do with
5 disrespect for your position and your rank but just to inform you, not
6 everyone has the same habit in this courtroom, but I just explain to you
7 why I call you Mr. Williams.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
10 Mr. Russo is counsel for the Prosecution and he will be the first
11 one to examine you.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Russo.
13 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 WITNESS: ROBERT SCHUMAN WILLIAMS
15 Examination by Mr. Russo:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel Williams. If you would please state your
17 full name for the record.
18 A. Good afternoon. My name is Robert Schuman Williams.
19 Q. And, Colonel, do you recall giving three statements to the ICTY
20 dated 5 November 1995
21 A. I do, Mr. Russo.
22 Q. And did you have a chance to review those statements before
23 coming to court today?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. And in the course of reviewing those statements, did you make a
1 number of corrections and clarifications to them and to their
3 A. I did, Mr. Russo.
4 Q. And were those clarifications that you made and corrections
5 reduced in writing in a supplemental information sheet which you reviewed
6 and signed.
7 A. That's correct.
8 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5484.
9 Q. Looking at your screen, Colonel Williams, is this the
10 supplemental information sheet which contains the corrections and
11 clarifications to your earlier three statements?
12 A. Yes, it is, Mr. Russo.
13 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, Your Honours, for the Court's
14 information we have not yet uploaded the B/C/S translation for this
15 document. However, that will be done today.
16 Q. Colonel Williams, taken together with the corrections and
17 clarifications outlined in this document, are all of your statements true
18 and accurate to the best of your knowledge?
19 A. To the best of my knowledge they are true and accurate,
20 Mr. Russo.
21 Q. And if you were examined on the same matters in those statements
22 and on this supplemental information sheet, would your answers today be
23 the same?
24 A. They would, sir.
25 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, on that basis I would move for the
1 admission of the three statements and the supplemental information sheet
2 pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
3 MR. KEHOE: I'm not sure there was any notification about the
4 supplemental information sheet being offered as an exhibit.
5 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I sent an e-mail on Tuesday to Defence
6 counsel and also forwarding to Chambers informing them that we did intend
7 to offer this as an expedient in the 92 ter process. I didn't hear any
8 objection. I wasn't sure that there was a misunderstanding about that.
9 MR. KEHOE: There clearly was because of -- obviously that that
10 had not been the practice previously. I know that you sent us the
11 supplemental information sheet.
12 That being said, Judge, just reviewing this, I mean, I withdraw
13 any objection. I just was -- for future reference, I would like a little
14 bit more clarity if that is, in fact, what we are doing.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Sometimes they are disclosed just for the
16 purposes of information and sometimes apparently they're disclosed and --
17 then I take it that apart from seeking them to be admitted, you also ask
18 permission to add them to your 65 ter list, Mr. Russo, isn't it.
19 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Your Honour. My apologies for not
20 being specific.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear that the Defence, for the future, would
22 like to know whether the supplemental information sheet will be exhibited
23 or whether it is just sent for information.
24 Any other objections?
25 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour.
1 MR. KAY: No, Your Honour.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No, Your Honour. The only question I have is
3 the 65 ter on the transcript has one extra number; I just wanted to make
4 sure that we have the correct number.
5 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to give the 65 ter
6 numbers for all of the statements including the supplemental information
7 sheet for the registrar.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What you didn't do and what we usually do,
9 Mr. Russo, is to give copies or show them on the screen so that we know
10 for sure that the statements that were -- are admitted and to which the
11 witness gave his attestation that that's the same document as we have in
12 front of us. It has not been done.
13 Now it is usually a formality. If the parties could agree that
14 the witness attested to the statements as standard under the 92 ter --
15 MR. KEHOE: We so attest. We have no objection. I understand
16 this is a --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that we'll pay some attention to the
18 statements anyhow. So if there would be a problem, it would become clear
20 Mr. Registrar.
21 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, let me provide Mr. Registrar with the 65
22 ter number for --
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour. I'm sorry, Mr. Russo, to
24 interrupt. I just have a question regarding, for example, the first
25 statement dated ...
1 MR. RUSSO: 5 November 1995
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes. Would the statement include the
3 attachment, would the attachment be a separate exhibit or would that be
4 part of the statement? I just -- just so we're clear.
5 MR. RUSSO: The statement will be submitted without the
6 attachment. The attachment has already come in, as you know, through a
7 prior witness, so we submit in the 92 ter only the statement itself.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: All right. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now we find the 65 ter numbers already in the -- in
10 the supplemental information sheet, Mr. Russo. First statement, the 1995
11 statement, 65 ter 5446.
12 Mr. Registrar, that would be.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P924.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P924 is admitted into evidence.
15 The second statement, 1996 statement, 65 ter 5447 would be,
16 Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P925.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P925 is admitted into evidence.
19 The third statement, the 2007 statement, 65 ter 5448, that would
20 be, Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: P926, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P926 is admitted into evidence. And then finally we
23 have the supplemental information sheet statement, dated the 23rd of
24 September, 2008, and that would be.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P927, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P927 is admitted into evidence. And I think the
2 65 ter number was mentioned earlier by you today, Mr. Russo.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could be allowed to
5 provide the witness with hard copies of his statements at this point.
6 JUDGE ORIE: With the assistance of the usher.
7 MR. RUSSO: And with the Chamber's permission, I would like to
8 read a brief summary of the 92 ter statements.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You have explained to the witness that this is to
10 inform the public about the content of the statements we received in
11 written form.
12 MR. RUSSO: I have, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. RUSSO: Thank you. Colonel Robert Williams was a
15 Military Information Officer for the Canadian contingent of the UNPROFOR
16 mission based in Zagreb
17 gather on-site intelligence regarding the warring factions in
18 Sector South and to brief the Sector South commander regarding the
19 likelihood of a Croatian offensive to retake the Krajina. He noted the
20 lack of defensive positions, as well as the lack of heavy weapons,
21 artillery and tanks in Knin and concluded that the ARSK had no plans to
22 defend the town.
23 He was present in Knin during the artillery attacks on 4 and 5
24 August, 1995, and observed the shelling of Knin from the balcony of the
25 UN HQ building.
1 He saw no outgoing artillery fire from Knin on either day.
2 Colonel Williams observed that the downtown area of Knin, and the
3 Tvik factory in particular, were heavily hit during the initial salvo
4 which was followed by a period of corrected fire and then what he termed
5 "harassment fire." During the late night on 4 August, Colonel Williams
6 assisted in bringing in and taking care of the Serb refugees who came to
7 the UN HQ compound since he could speak Serbo-Croat. On the morning of
8 5 August, he was one of the UN officers who went outside the UN compound
9 to remove bodies of several civilians and ARSK soldiers who were killed
10 by a mortar blast at the intersection just outside of the compound. He
11 and other UN officers came under mortar fire at that time.
12 After the HV entered Knin on the afternoon of 5 August,
13 Colonel Williams witnessed HV soldiers drinking and looting outside the
14 UN HQ compound and heard explosions and fires occurring in Knin.
15 That concludes my summary, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Russo.
17 MR. RUSSO:
18 Q. Colonel Williams, I'd like to begin with your assessment of the
19 situation in Knin immediately prior to Operation Storm, specifically if
20 you can refer to your second statement, which for the record is P925, at
21 page 3 of that statement, bottom of the second paragraph; and in the
22 B/C/S this appears at page 5 in the first paragraph.
23 Now, that portion of your statement, Mr. Williams, you state: "I
24 remember thinking that it was very strange that the only military heavy
25 equipment was so far away from Knin and that it was no dug-in defensive
1 positions, no artillery, no tanks, no preparation to defend Knin. And my
2 conclusion on the 3 August 1995
3 Knin as a town."
4 Colonel, can you tell the Court whether these observations and
5 assessments you made were based on personal observations of yours in the
6 town of Knin on 3 August 1995
7 A. Mr. Russo, they were based upon personal observations of the
8 afternoon and evening of the 3rd of August, 1995.
9 Q. And can you explain to the Court why you were in Knin on the
10 3rd of August, 1995?
11 A. I was in Knin on the 3rd of August, 1995, to brief
12 General Forand, the Canadian commander of Sector South, as far as the
13 possibility or potential of an invasion or of an assault against the
14 Krajina and to explain to him our assessment of the situation in both UN
15 sectors North and South.
16 Q. And in addition to the observations that you made in the town
17 itself, did you receive any information from any other source regarding
18 the military situation in Knin on the 3rd of August?
19 A. I talked to people that had already been in Knin far longer. I
20 noted a lack of activity in the city and certainly a lack of military
21 activity in the city itself.
22 Q. Thank you. Moving to page 4.
23 MR. RUSSO: And for the Registrar's benefit, all of the statement
24 references I will be making are to the second statement.
25 Q. Moving to page 4, Colonel Williams, middle of the 2nd paragraph,
1 which in the B/C/S appears at page 6 in the first paragraph, you state:
2 "I believe that the HV could monitor everything that happened in the time
3 from the 3 August 1995
4 5 August 1995
5 I'd like you, if you could, please, to explain to the Court why
6 you think the HV could monitor everything that happened in Knin from
7 3 August onward.
8 A. Yes. When I talk about monitor everything, it would be both
9 visual and potentially electronically. And I would say that the accuracy
10 of the artillery fire and the fact that they were able to bring down
11 artillery fire indicates to me they had a good -- the HV, that is, had a
12 good idea of activity in the town itself.
13 Q. Thank you. Let's move now to some of your observations of the
14 artillery attack itself and we'll begin with your observations on
15 4 August.
16 Referring to page 4, the bottom of the final paragraph, in B/C/S
17 this appears on page 6 in the second paragraph. Where you describe some
18 of the shelling during that day as: "Some type of harassment fire with
19 single or groups of two to three guns shelling different areas of the
20 town, including residential areas. I remember think that the pattern of
21 shelling was to induce the speed of civilian population to leave town."
22 Colonel, can you explain to the Court what you mean by
23 "harassment fire" in the residential areas?
24 A. Certainly. What I mean by "harassment fire" is not directed at a
25 specific military targets but one or two shells directed in an area to
1 convince people to leave, not necessarily targeted at a house but near
2 enough to a house or building to encourage the occupants, if they
3 remained, that they should leave.
4 Q. And what was it about what you saw that made you think it was
5 intended to speed up the flight of civilians?
6 A. The fact that it was fairly sporadic. The heavy bombardment had
7 already occurred earlier in the day. It lessened in the afternoon and
8 then random or fairly random shots in one or two in different areas to
9 encourage people to leave. It was not an intense bombardment from any --
10 from my point of view and my opinion only, military usefulness.
11 Q. And can you tell the Court how long this type of harassment fire
12 continued for during the 4th of August?
13 A. This type of harassment fire continued through late afternoon,
14 early into the evening. I could not tell you the exact time I heard the
15 last shot. I don't recall.
16 Q. Thank you. In your statements you indicate that you had assisted
17 in the intake of the Serb refugees on the 4th of August. Can you tell
18 the Court whether shelling continued during that time-period?
19 A. I could not tell the Court for sure whether shelling continued
20 during that time-period. The refugee intake started at 2320 hours, or
21 11.20 in the evening, on the 4th of August. I was focusing on assisting
22 the refugees not counting artillery shells at that time.
23 Q. Thank you. Now moving to 5 August and referring to the top of
24 page 6. In B/C/S this is page 8 at the second paragraph. You describe
25 shelling in the early hours of 5 August as follows: "Heavy shelling
1 continued all over the town and several shells impacted close to the HQ.
2 I assessed the impacts close to the HQ being a combination of short fuses
3 and harassment fire against the UN to keep us in the camp."
4 First, when you say that shelling, heavy shelling continued all
5 over the town, can you tell the Court whether this was corrected fire or
6 something different?
7 A. Yes. The heavy fire started early in the morning of the 5th,
8 approximately 5.20. Our assessment was it was would probably start at
9 5.00. By that time, the petroleum storage, the oils in storage by the
10 train station was on fire so some of the effect of the shelling was
11 actually obscured by the black smoke, but it was heavy and in different
12 parts of the town for the first part of the day.
13 Q. And, Colonel, why did you assess that some of the rounds landing
14 close to the HQ were meant to harass the UN?
15 A. The rounds that landed close to the HQ, and in several cases mud
16 splattered on the balcony, was -- it was an UN camp identified as such,
17 there was no military purpose and there were no Krajina Serb military
18 near the camp. And some of the shells landed several hundred yards due
19 north of the camp, very short of the city. My assessment of the firing
20 on the 4th of August was they had a fairly accurate idea of where they
21 were shelling, so either it was faulty shells or they were fused to land
22 [Realtime transcript read in error "refused to land"] short.
23 Q. Thank you. Now following on in that same paragraph of your
24 second statement, Colonel, you indicate that at 6.10 a.m. on the 5th of
25 August you saw eight ARSK tanks, one APC and one truck pass the HQ at
1 high speed through Knin and you state: "They never stopped in Knin since
2 I could see and hear them disappear towards the north."
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Now, can you tell the Court whether you saw any attempts being
5 made to target or hit these tanks with artillery?
6 A. I saw no attempt made to target or hit these tanks.
7 Q. Are you able to tell the Court approximately how fast these
8 vehicles were moving?
9 A. I would estimate that the vehicles were moving anywhere between
10 30 and 50 kilometres an hour.
11 Q. And, Colonel, did it appear to you that these vehicles were
12 preparing to stand and defend the town?
13 A. At the speed they were moving and until they left my point of
14 view, where I could actually see them, it didn't appear they were slowing
15 down. Once they disappeared from my sight, I can't say what they did
16 after that.
17 Q. And to your knowledge, Colonel, was there any evidence of damaged
18 or destroyed ARSK vehicles in Knin immediately after Operation Storm?
19 A. No, there was no evidence of destroyed or damaged vehicles in the
20 town from what I saw in the immediate aftermath of Op Storm.
21 Q. Thank you. I would like to refer to an aerial photograph of Knin
22 which -- upon which you have marked some areas where you saw shells
23 landing on 4 and 5 August.
24 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5485.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps meanwhile I can seek clarification with you,
1 Mr. Williams. What did you exactly mean when you said it -- a
2 combination of short fuses and harassment fire. Harassment fire is quite
3 clear to me. What do you exactly mean by short fuses?
4 THE WITNESS: The short fuse may have been meant to explode in
5 the air. I noticed in the statement I said -- it says: "They refused to
6 land." I said they were fused to land short, so when you set the fuse on
7 the artillery shell.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it is ... it is the way in which they were
9 programmed, more or less, where to explode.
10 THE WITNESS: Right, sir.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
12 MR. RUSSO:
13 Q. Colonel Williams, taking a look at this aerial photograph, can
14 you explain to the Court what the areas circled in blue represent.
15 A. Yes, Mr. Russo. The areas circled in blue which I circled on
16 this overhead image are the -- the shelling that occurred on the first
17 day, on August 4th, that I could see from the balcony of the headquarters
18 building. Approximate areas.
19 Q. Thank you. And can you tell the Court what the areas circled in
20 red signify.
21 A. The areas circled in red depict, to the best of my recollection,
22 the corrected fire on particular areas where the -- the initial fire was
23 in the blue, more intense fire later in the day upon the red.
24 Q. Thank you. And finally, the areas which are circled and also
25 shaded in green, can you please explain to the Court what those
2 A. Certainly. The areas circled and shaded in green represent
3 shelling on the 5th of August.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, I'd like to move this into evidence,
7 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Judge.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P928.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P928 is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Colonel Williams, in your second statement at page 6, the second
13 paragraph, in B/C/S this appears at page 8 in the third paragraph, you
14 describe an incident there on the morning of the 5th of August where you
15 assisted in bagging the bodies of several people who had been killed by a
16 mortar blast at the intersection outside the compound. I would like you,
17 please, in your own words, to describe that incident for the Court.
18 A. Certainly. The word had come back to the headquarters through
19 one of my colleagues, Mr. Berikoff and Sergeant Engelby, another
20 colleague, that there had been some wounded or dead people at the
21 intersection, and in order to clear them off the road or move them out of
22 the way to allow any traffic plus the fact that it was -- very warm and
23 the -- the smell of the dead and the traumatic effect upon the
24 approximately 500 refugees we had in camp at the time, or, rather, the
25 Krajina Serb civilians, we wanted to move these people off the road and
1 do any dignity to their remains.
2 So we left the camp. We had a -- a photographer, civilian
3 photographer went with us but did not stay. She immediately became ill
4 upon arriving at the scene, and at the scene, to the best of my
5 recollection, and I can visualize it in my mind still, we found six dead
6 men; one them had looked like he had been killed quite a while ago, if
7 not a day before. The blood was quite crimson on him. He was in a
8 horse-drawn carriage. There was a hunting rifle was near him. His wife
9 or sister was nearby saying the Lord's Prayer over him in Serbian, [B/C/S
10 spoken]. She was crying her son or nephew was dead next to the cart.
11 Neither of those two gentlemen had uniforms on.
12 The other four individuals, one was a Mr. Djapic. I -- when we
13 were crawling on the ground I wanted to verify as best we could who these
14 people were so that in the event that the remains disappear, as can
15 happen in the carnage of war, we could at least identify the Red Cross or
16 Red Crescent so they could notify the next of kin and they could have
17 closure for their families.
18 The other three individuals, two were in the uniform of
19 Krajina Serb, no rank, no insignia and no identification in any of the
20 other five. So the only person we could identify was Mr. Djapic from
21 Drnis, according to his papers.
22 While we were picking up their remains, a mortar shell went off
23 between 15 and 20 feet in the air above us at the time. Even though it
24 was hot and even though we didn't want to, we wore our blue helmets for
25 protection which made us stand out, and once we got the individuals into
1 what we call body-bags or plastic bags with zippers to take them off the
2 road, we left. Before we did that, I tried to encourage -- whether she
3 was the wife or sister of the elderly gentleman killed to come with us.
4 She was severely wounded. Her -- her right eye was hanging out. She was
5 bleeding. And fortunately, two days later I did see her in the camp.
6 I'm not sure how she got in but she eventually came in.
7 That is my best recollection of the events.
8 Q. Thank you for that, Colonel Williams.
9 In your statement you reference an UN CIVPOL report regarding
10 this incident and I'd like to ask you a few questions about that.
11 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have Exhibit P220.
12 Q. Colonel Williams, taking a look at your screen, do you recognise
13 this document?
14 A. I do, sir, and I recognise my signature.
15 Q. Is this the UNCIVPOL report which you mention in your second
17 A. It appears to be, yes.
18 Q. Now the report indicates, in the last paragraph there, that as of
19 6 August 1995
20 been moved whereas the rest remained in the same place. Are you able to
21 clarify for the Court whether this was the same body which you later
22 indicate you saw mutilated on the 5th of August?
23 A. This was the same body we saw mutilated and I saw mutilated on
24 the corner on the 5th of August.
25 Q. And the last male listed in the report is the one who appears to
1 have suffered a gunshot wound to the chest. Do you have any information
2 for the Court about how or when that gunshot happened?
3 A. I have no information as to how or where that gunshot wound
4 happened. I had asked his -- either his wife or sister what had happened
5 but she was in a state of shock and unable to explain what had happened
6 to that man.
7 Q. I believe you've already touched on this, the report does mention
8 strong evidence that this man was father and possibly father of the other
9 young man who was killed. Can you tell Court what this evidence was?
10 A. The evidence -- the young man and the elderly gentleman, the
11 young man was hanging off the cart and the woman with was them and she
12 would not leave them. So that was my inference that they were related.
13 She would not leave the two people. The elderly gentleman was laying in
14 the cart and so they had taken his dead body with them. So to me it
15 indicated that they were somehow related, though I can't say with
16 100 percent certainty that they were related.
17 Q. Thank you. Colonel, before we move on to discuss some of the
18 events following the artillery attack, can you tell the Court whether
19 during the attack itself you continued in your duties as an intelligence
20 officer and made reports on the situation to your superiors?
21 A. During the course of the day, I would brief our commander,
22 General Forand, and other staff, Colonel Leslie included. I attempted
23 and was successful upon more than one occasion to communicate to the
24 Canadian contingent headquarters in Zagreb to explain to them the
25 situation and actually at one point managed to get a phone call through
1 to the Canadian National Defence headquarters in Ottawa to explain that
2 the war had started and that we were in, what I would call, only awkward
4 Q. And what were these reports that you made based on?
5 A. Reports were based on personal observation reports coming in from
6 the Czech battalion that was in our sector, a fellow Canadian Battalion
7 that was in the sector and then at one point debriefing a Czech soldier
8 who had arrived and various reporting, random and somewhat sporadic, from
9 our Kenyan Battalion colleagues.
10 Q. And in these reports you made, did you consider any media
12 A. Yes, I did, sir. We had information provided by a media person.
13 His first name is Alun, I can picture him but I don't recall his last
14 name. I generally recall it was A-l-u-n, which I had never seen as a
15 spelling for Alun. And there was reporting we -- included in there and
16 indicated it was, for the most part, media reporting, though I'm not sure
17 all of it was cited as media reporting.
18 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 1927.
19 Q. Looking at your screen, Colonel Williams, do you recognise this
21 A. I do, sir.
22 Q. And is this one of the documents upon which you relied in making
23 your intelligence assessments on the 4th of August?
24 A. That's correct. In particular the paragraph where the losses to
25 the Croatian soldiers killed in the offensive of 200. We had no proof of
1 that other than the reporting which, as I mentioned, we had no way of
2 confirming at that time.
3 Q. Thank you. The information which follows that indicates that in
4 listening to Croatian army communications some HV commander was
5 supposedly heard to indicate that his soldiers were deserting the front
6 line. Was this information something which you considered accurate and
7 why or why not?
8 A. I didn't consider this information accurate because my assessment
9 and the assessment of my intelligence colleagues was the Croatian army
10 was professional and extremely well trained and it's not something they
11 would do. We read this as likely propaganda by the Krajina Serbs to try
12 to bolster their own morale or to try to weaken the morale of the
13 Croatian army.
14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour. With all due respect, Colonel, that is
15 speculation, I object.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You are not objecting against the question but
17 against the answer, isn't it.
18 MR. KEHOE: Frankly, Judge, they're part and parcel of each
19 other. To the extent that he can report what was reported in the radio,
20 I -- that's fine. But his speculation on that score is something else.
21 MR. RUSSO: If I could, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. RUSSO: Previous witnesses, in particular Mr. Dangerfield and
24 Mr. Berikoff, there was, I believe, the radio broadcast by General Mrksic
25 or the broadcast of his interview and they were -- the Defence put those
1 statements to the witnesses and were asked for their opinions about
2 whether they agreed with those statements or not. I don't believe this
3 is any different.
4 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour, if I may. I certainly put
5 General Mrksic's public radio broadcast to the witness. I didn't put
6 whether or not, for instance, Mr. Berikoff agreed with what
7 General Mrksic had to say.
8 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I do believe the follow-up questions
9 were, if the Court recalls, based on the truthfulness or asking the
10 witness to assume that, for example, units were withdrawing for the
11 defence of Knin was in fact true.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's -- one second. Let me give a second
13 to think about the matter and re-read the question and ...
14 The witness may answer the question in respect of whether he
15 formed an opinion at the time when you learned about this broadcast,
16 whether you formed an opinion about the accuracy and on what that
17 assessment -- on what that opinion was based.
18 Please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
20 My opinion at the time would be 200 is a very exact figure and it
21 is hard to estimate exact figures in a time of war and that the Croatian
22 army would be unlikely to take that loss on the first day. They were
23 very well trained and organised.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So your opinion was based on what you knew about the
25 professionality of the armed forces.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Russo.
3 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. At this time I would move
4 for the admission of 65 ter 1927.
5 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Judge.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P929.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P929 is admitted into evidence.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Russo.
10 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Colonel Williams, moving now to the events following the
12 artillery attack, let me refer you to page 6 of your second statement at
13 the third paragraph. And in B/C/S this appears at page 9 in the first
15 And there you indicate that at 1205 hours the 7 Guards Brigade
16 showed up at the gate of the UN compound. First, I'd like to you please
17 explain to the Court how you know what unit of the HV they were from?
18 A. Certainly, Mr. Russo. The 7 Guards Brigade from Varazdin, their
19 emblem was a Puma and they wore that as a patch and it was on many of
20 their vehicles, on the side of the hull of the turret of the tank.
21 Q. Did you speak to any of these HV soldiers?
22 A. I did, sir.
23 Q. And did you speak to them in Croatian or in English?
24 A. I spoke to the first gentleman in Croatian. I wished him good
25 day, explained who we were. His first question to me and his only
1 question was where was Martic.
2 Q. Did you tell him where Martic was?
3 A. When I told him I had no idea where Martic was, he left.
4 Q. Who did you speak to after that?
5 A. The second soldier, a soldier came up to me, not an officer and
6 said to me in perfect Canadian English, What the hell are you guys doing
8 Q. How did you respond to that?
9 A. I said, We are part of the United Nations headquarters in
10 Sector South and there's a number of Canadians here.
11 Q. Colonel, are you able to tell the Court whether there were any
12 senior HV officers present when the HV arrived at the gate?
13 A. The first presence at the gate was three tanks. Until this
14 gentleman walked over, the three tanks sat there for several minutes. So
15 I'm not sure if he came from one of the tanks. I doubt it because he was
16 not in a uniform that they were wearing. He was in more of a clean
17 uniform and appeared to walk over to the gate, alone.
18 Q. And was this gentleman a senior officer?
19 A. This gentleman was at least a lieutenant-colonel in the Croatian
20 army, in the HV.
21 Q. Staying in that same paragraph, Colonel, you state: "I remember
22 that I was thinking that the HV wanted to make sure that we, the UN,
23 stayed put in the camp so that follow-up HV units and so-called Croatian
24 special police could continue into town and conduct their activities
1 First, what made you believe that Croatian special police were
3 A. I had no evidence that the Croatian special police were involved
4 but the Croatian police would follow-up the initial fighting forces as
5 happened in Op Flash and seemed to be the tactic of the Croatian
7 The second individual I spoke to, the Canadian or Canadian
8 citizen, if I guess, but I'm not sure if he still was, indicated that we
9 should stay in the camp.
10 Q. And what was it that made you think that they didn't want the UN
11 to observe what they were doing in Knin?
12 A. The -- we were on the south part of the city and they still had
13 to capture the entire city; so whether they wanted us out of the way or
14 not observe would be speculation on my behalf.
15 Q. Colonel, are you able to tell the Court whether at any time after
16 these Croatian soldiers arrived at the gate you saw or heard any shells
17 landing in Knin?
18 A. There were a limited number of shells landing in Knin after the
19 soldiers arrived at the gate.
20 Q. Can you give the Court an idea of approximately how many and
22 A. It was in the afternoon, the exact number I couldn't specify.
23 There was not as many as the day before, the 4th of August.
24 Q. Now, moving to the top of the next page, which, in B/C/S is page
25 9, second paragraph, you mention drinking and looting by HV soldiers that
1 you witnessed from the balcony of the UN HQ building and I would like to
2 you, please, describe what you saw exactly to the Court.
3 A. All right. Looking out from the balcony, down on to the street
4 directly in front of the UN camp, I observed soldiers with rifle in one
5 hand and various -- with either television in the other hand, one of them
6 walking with a television on top of his shoulder holding it. Some with
7 radios, and different household articles that one would -- I would not
8 expect to see with a combat force.
9 Q. And can you give the Court any idea of whether any HV officers or
10 commanders were present when this behaviour was ongoing?
11 A. I did not see any rank that would indicate an officer.
12 Q. Was this drinking and looting occurring in a manner which was
13 open or concealed?
14 A. There was drinking occurring in the lot just across the road from
15 the headquarters and it was what I would call somewhat civilized. There
16 was people having a drink, they were probably tired.
17 Q. Would it have been apparent to anyone on the scene what was
19 A. The fact of soldiers walking with televisions and items they
20 would not have brought into combat, to me, was definitely out of the
21 ordinarily. Somebody understanding what an assault force would do would
22 have a good idea that that was unusual.
23 Q. Thank you. And moving to the third paragraph of that page, you
24 mention an incident which occurred at 1900 hours on the evening of
25 5 August where you and other UN members attempted to get into Knin town
1 itself and I'd like you to please describe for the Court what happened
3 A. Right. We had made an attempt using Canadian armoured personnel
4 carrier, and our Czech colleagues with their armoured personnel carriers,
5 and we were blocked at the intersection by a column of T-55 tanks from
6 7 Brigade, the Puma. They indicated to us they had right of way. Their
7 vehicles were larger and they indicated by waving that they wanted us off
8 the road, so we returned to the camp.
9 Q. And on the way back to the camp, Colonel, did you see any dead
11 A. I saw one dead body. I saw the same body when I left the camp.
12 It's of a young soldier that attempted to surrender to us earlier in the
13 day, a Krajina Serb soldier.
14 Q. Can you give the Court some information about this soldier that
15 you saw earlier in the day?
16 A. Earlier in the day he attempted to surrender to myself and one of
17 my colleagues at the front gate. I explained that we could not take his
18 surrender because we did not want to endanger the life of the civilians
19 by harbouring potential military or military soldiers in the Krajina
21 Q. And are you certain this is the same individual whom you saw dead
22 outside of the compound later on that evening?
23 A. I have no doubt it is the same individual. I can picture his
24 face perfectly.
25 Q. Can you tell the Court, if you know, how he appeared to have
2 A. He was laying in a ditch. His head was to the side and he a
3 gunshot in the back of his head.
4 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
5 In the next paragraph, you mention a trip into town to meet with
6 the Special Representative Akashi on the 7th of August, and you state:
7 "At this time the Croats had worked hard to clean up everything."
8 Can you please describe for the Court what you know about this
9 clean-up effort?
10 A. The only thing I can describe about any clean up effort was when
11 we had left the intersection on the -- when picking up the six bodies.
12 There was quite a bit of carnage, destruction of the road, blood from the
13 dead, body parts, and when we drove out on the 7th, there was nothing.
14 The road was absolutely clean. It looked like nothing had ever happened
15 there. That's the only first eye-witness account I can give you. I'm
16 not aware of any other.
17 Q. Thank you. And also in that paragraph it indicates: "Looting
18 were going on all over the town. This was the 7 Puma Brigade, 4 Guards
19 Brigade, elements from the 3 Guards Brigade, approximately a company,
20 however, with no vehicles, 66 and 72nd MP units and some Home Guard
22 First, Colonel, can you clarify what day you are referring to
23 this looting occurring?
24 A. The 6th of August. This is from reporting that I had. This is
25 not from firsthand observation.
1 Q. And can you tell the Court what the identification of the units
2 where that information came from?
3 A. The 7th Brigade, by the brigade insignia; the 4th Guards Brigade,
4 by the brigade insignia; the 3rd Guards, by the colour of berets that
5 were observed; and the 66th and 72nd MP units. The 72nd are identified
6 and the 66th was assessed, so not definite.
7 Q. And can you tell the Court how you identified Home Guard units?
8 A. Home Guard units were usually in a slightly different uniform and
9 they had a patch, some had two patches, representing -- one was
10 representing the actual regiment of what Home Guard regiment it was; and
11 the other ones had a patch they wore on their sleeve which would have
12 [B/C/S spoken], or Home Defence, on the patch.
13 Q. And can you describe for the Court the appearance of these
14 Home Guard units as compared to those of the 7, 4, or 3 Guards Brigade?
15 A. The Home Guard units appeared to be what I can only say is
16 scruffy and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. They seemed to be
17 not as well fed or not as -- physically as big or as physically fit as
18 the Guards units. Some had hats, some did not; some were shaven, some
19 were not.
20 Q. Thank you. Colonel, when did you leave Knin?
21 A. I left Knin on the 7th of August.
22 Q. And how exactly did you leave?
23 A. I flew out on a Sea King helicopter which was evacuating one of
24 our wounded to hospital and I flew to Split by helicopter and then from
25 Split to Zagreb
1 Q. And, Colonel --
2 MR. RUSSO: My apologies to the interpreters.
3 Q. Colonel, can you tell the Court what, if anything, you observed
4 on the helicopter flight out of Knin itself.
5 A. I observed at various time in the flight, particularly near Knin,
6 buildings on fire, houses, and in some cases livestock dead in the field,
7 as in livestock were not moving.
8 Q. And can you give the Court some idea of the scale of this kind of
10 A. The only thing I can say with certainty about the scale is it
11 wasn't just a random house. There were many houses, certainly more than
12 one and more than one field of dead livestock.
13 Q. Thank you. Colonel, you've made several reports regarding the
14 events surrounding Operation Storm, one of which has already been
15 admitted into evidence. I would like, however, to confirm another one.
16 MR. RUSSO: If, Mr. Registrar, we could, please, have 65 ter
18 Q. Looking at your screen, Colonel, do you recognise this document?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Can you tell the Court whether or not you authored this document?
21 A. I compiled this document from a variety of sources.
22 Q. Can you give the Court an idea of what those sources were?
23 A. Certainly Mr. Russo. The sources I used were UN reporting from
24 different battalions. Eye-witness accounts, things I observed, things
25 that some of my colleagues observed.
1 Q. And, Colonel, what was the purpose of creating this particular
3 A. The purpose of my creating this document was to try to understand
4 why Knin had fallen so quickly and to determine in -- a military point of
5 view, what is it we missed in the assessment of the potential foreign
6 assault on the Krajina.
7 Q. And can you give the Court a time-frame for when this document
8 was created?
9 A. I created this document after I had returned to Zagreb
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, I would move for the admission of
12 65 ter 3989.
13 MR. KEHOE: No objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P930.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P930 is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Colonel Williams, at any time after Operation Storm did you ever
19 hear a mention of or any indication of the existence of warlords in
20 Sector South?
21 A. No. And that's not a term that I have ever heard used nor would
22 I have used to describe any of the military commanders in Sector South.
23 Q. Just so we're clear, what is your understanding of that term,
25 A. My understanding of warlord would be an uncontrolled militia
1 hired by some criminal is the context we've used it in other theatres of
3 Q. And to your knowledge, did any Croatian official ever mention the
4 existence of warlords as having been responsible for any of the conduct
5 in Sector South, following Operation Storm?
6 A. I have never, ever heard any mention of that.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, that conclude my examination.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Russo. Mr. Kehoe, you will be the
10 first one to cross-examine the witness.
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, I will. If I could just have one moment to --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to get the right furniture.
13 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Williams, you will be cross-examined first by
15 Mr. Kehoe. Mr. Kehoe is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
16 THE WITNESS: Very good, sir.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel Williams. Good to see you again, sir.
20 A. Mr. Kehoe, good to see you again as well.
21 Q. Colonel, I would like to talk to you a bit about some of the
22 reporting that you did and the first one, just preliminarily, was the
23 document that you were just discussed with Mr. Russo, which was your 1996
24 statement, P925.
25 Now, Colonel, you had, prior to going to Knin in August, been
1 monitoring the activities of the HV coming up the Livno valley and into
2 the Dinara, had you not?
3 A. Yes, we had, sir.
4 Q. And even prior to coming to Knin, you knew that there was a
5 build-up not only in Sector South -- excuse me, let me say that again
6 there was a build-up by the HV not only in Sector South but also in
7 Sector North?
8 A. That's correct, sir.
9 Q. So would it be fair to say that before you got to Knin to brief
10 General Forand, you expected the HV to engage in a large, concerted
11 operation against the Krajina Serbs throughout Sector North and
12 Sector South. Is that accurate?
13 A. That is accurate, sir.
14 Q. Now, I understand from your report that you came to Zagreb
15 believe, in June of 1995. And if I can turn our attention to your
16 chronology that has come into evidence under another witness, which is
17 P744. That's the document that sets forth the situation from 8 July to
18 18 August 1995
19 MR. KEHOE: If I can put that up on the screen.
20 Q. Now, I noticed here, sir, that you have in the insert for
21 July the 23rd, HV shelling in the Cetina valley. Do you see that,
22 July the 23rd?
23 A. I do, sir.
24 Q. And then we go back down to the 26th. Again we have 18 artillery
25 shells impacted in the general area of Cetina village and the slope of
1 Antica Glava heights.
2 Now, if I can, and just if I can just orient us with the map and
3 if I can go to D728, page 6 of that document.
4 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Usher [sic]. I'm sorry, D728, page 6 of D728.
5 Q. Now, if I may, Colonel as an intelligence officer, you were made
6 aware, of course, about the movements by the HV in the Livno and up in
7 the Dinara even before you came to Zagreb
8 of 1995. Isn't that true?
9 A. That's correct, sir.
10 Q. And let me show you a map. This operation - this is Jump 2. If
11 we can go to the next page of this.
12 This references the combat operations in Operation Jump 2 between
13 4 June and 11 June 1995
14 blow-up the centre of that just a little bit near the 1st Light Infantry
15 Brigade. There we go.
16 Now, the 1st Light Infantry Brigade that you see there for the
17 ARSK was located in Vrlika, was it not, sir?
18 A. I have not seen this map before but that seems to be, to my
19 recollection, where we had locate the them.
20 Q. And this is -- reflects the fighting in Jump 2 -- Operation
21 Jump 2 between 4 June and 11 June of 1995, and throughout that time,
22 Colonel, you learned that there was a significant amount of fighting back
23 and forth along this confrontation line, wasn't there?
24 A. That's correct, sir.
25 Q. Let me show you a video, if I can, and I want to show you the
1 video, Colonel, I know you haven't seen it before, maybe you have. As
2 part of your intelligence gathering capabilities, were you monitoring the
3 media on both the Croatian side and the RSK side?
4 A. I personally was not but we had staff, UN staff that were
5 monitoring both communications, yes.
6 Q. Okay, and -- I'm just taking a brief pause for the translators,
7 so if I do that, just bear with me. And naturally if something of
8 interest came to your attention -- came to their attention, they would
9 then tell you as part of the G2 section or the Intel section, correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Let me -- if I can just take one moment and get this D number
13 MR. KEHOE: This is -- Mr. Usher, this is 1D55-0007. This is a
14 video-clip from Dnevnik News, 6 June 1995. And, Your Honour, the
15 translations have been given to the translation booths.
16 [Videotape played]
17 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] After the latest aggression
18 directed at Srpska and Krajina, the president of the RSK, Milan Martic,
19 visited the soldiers and the local inhabitants of Podinarje today."
20 "Tatjana Batak: With respect to the latest aggression,
21 Milan Martic visited the village of Cetina
22 where the shelling began two days ago and spoke to the soldiers in the
23 villages of Cetina."
24 "Milan Martic: The situation on the battlefront has stabilized
25 and I can say that I'm pleased. I expect the situation to be even
1 better. The confidence among men has been restored and the call up for
2 mobilisation" in the field was successful. Additional forces are
3 arriving from nearly every region of the Republic of Serbian Krajina
4 Republika Srpska and even Serbia
5 this area as well.
6 "I expect that the situation will change significantly in the
7 following period. We have increased our measures in a military sense.
8 "The initial period from the attack on Western Slavonia and the
9 shattered confidence in certain parts of the Krajina has been restored
10 and it's a whole different story now. Many countries in the world are
11 slowly changing their media propaganda and their diplomatic delegates in
12 the Security Council and in other places are taking a sharper approach
13 towards Croatia
15 MR. KEHOE:
16 Q. Now Colonel, going to the information in this -- had you seen
17 this before?
18 A. I had not seen this video before, sir.
19 Q. You told us you were aware of this -- this fighting or had Intel
20 on this fighting, and do you know what steps the ARSK took in June of
21 1995 to, as Milan Martic says, stabilize the situation on the battle
23 A. I'm not aware of what steps he took in June 1995.
24 Q. Were you aware, sir, of the defences put forth by the ARSK in
25 June of 1995 while Operation Jump 2 was ongoing?
1 A. I'm not aware of the defences.
2 Q. Lastly on this score, there is a quote -- and -- that would
3 playing it back Colonel, Martic says: "Additional forces are arriving
4 from every region of the RSK, the RS, Republika Srpska, and even in
6 Did the Intel reporting reflect at that time that these
7 additional resources were coming to the battle front area near Cetina
8 from every region of the RSK, the Republika Srpska or even Serbia
9 A. I'm not aware of any Intel reporting that. My focus was on
10 the -- Croatia
11 Q. Well, the Cetina valley is in the Krajina, sir.
12 A. I realize that.
13 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we will offer into evidence
15 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
16 MR. KEHOE: Now, if I may -- I am sorry. I'm sorry, Judge.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated].
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D811.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D811 is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. KEHOE: My apologies for getting in front of the Court,
21 Your Honour.
22 Q. If I may just turn our attention back to P744 to the insert for
23 the 26th of July.
24 Now, Colonel, this is the insert of 18 shells impacted in the
25 general area of Cetina and the slopes of Antica Glava. Now -- I say
1 between 10.00 and 1600 on the 26th.
2 Now let me bring up for you at this point 1D55-0018.
3 As this is coming up, if I can just ask you some preliminary
4 questions. As part of your intelligence gathering function, did you on
5 occasion obtain documents from either the HV side or the ARSK side that
6 were of interest to you to allow you to make certain assessments as to
7 what was going on?
8 A. I'm not sure I really understand your question. Are you
9 referring to maps or reports or ...
10 Q. Maps, or if someone came across an order, or someone came across
11 some type of plans. Did you ever have that?
12 A. If documents were found, they would be turned into us but none
13 were actually given to us.
14 Q. Let me show you this then. This is a report of the 25th of July,
15 1995, a day before your insert in your report. And it is a report from
16 the Operative Group North and it notes: Mr. Commander, during the day --
17 and this is from the HV, by the way, HV Main Staff, Colonel
18 Ante Kotromanovic [phoen]. This commander or HV commander says: During
19 the day, the enemy engaged in combat activities in the AOR of operative
20 group Sinj as follows. Around 14 hours with seven projectiles from
21 Suhopolje onto Antica Glava .
22 This is for the 25th. Now Antica Glava, by the 25th of July, was
23 a position that was being held by the HV, wasn't it?
24 A. I don't recall exactly.
25 Q. Well, the information that you have in your report reflects -- on
1 the 26th of July, reflects impacts on the slopes of Antica Glava?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Did you at that point when you -- this information was coming in
4 to you, did you know that that was a position that was being held by the
5 HV on the 25th and the 26th of July?
6 A. I did not, no.
7 Q. The next line, sir: "Around 1800 hours with twelve
8 120-millimetre mortars from Preocani (Cetina)."
9 A. Excuse me. I'm seeing the letter on the Operational Group North.
10 I'm not seeing the summary of what I provided.
11 Q. No. What I'm saying, sir, is I'm just staying with this
12 document, but I was referring back to your report, 744.
13 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Russo, if I may, does he have a hard copy of 744,
14 because I know that was part of his initial statement.
15 MR. RUSSO: Yes, he does. It's in the back of the tabs provided
16 to him. It's the last tab.
17 MR. KEHOE:
18 Q. The first page of that document. I'm talking about the 26th
19 July insert.
20 A. All right. I have it now, my apologies.
21 Q. That's quite all right. Colonel, if there's any point that you
22 need to reference back to a document, please stop me to allow you to give
23 you the time to do so.
24 Now just looking at your document, this -- the information that
25 you put down in your report of 26th July, that was information that you
1 received from the field. Is that right?
2 A. That's correct, sir.
3 Q. You weren't there yourself?
4 A. I was not.
5 Q. Now, if we turn back to the document that's on the screen, this
6 report of the 25th of July, 1995, I note in your report that the shooting
7 that was taking place both at 1400 hours from Suhopolje on to
8 Antica Glava as well as at 1800 hours the mortars coming from Preocani,
9 those two inserts are not in your report.
10 Now, does that mean that that shooting didn't happen, sir, or it
11 means it wasn't reported?
12 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
14 MR. RUSSO: I believe Mr. Kehoe asked the witness whether or not
15 his intelligence information was based on documents received. He
16 indicated he received no documents and now it is being put to him that
17 information in this document wasn't included in his intelligence report.
18 I'm not sure if -- I'm not sure --
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... apparently Mr. Kehoe is
20 it seeking whether what he finds in certain documents, whether that's
21 reflected in the reports prepared by this witness. It's not part of the
22 question that he may have left it out although he would have received
23 that. That's not the question.
24 Mr. Kehoe is just seeking, I take it, to establish how accurate
25 or not the reports were and in his questioning he includes information
1 which may not have been available to the witness.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. Colonel, did you understand my question, sir?
5 A. I understood your question, Mr. Kehoe. I have not seen the
6 report nor would I edit out parts of it if I had seen the report.
7 Q. I -- my next question based on that, Colonel, is this: Looking
8 at the report that is on the screen, and of course understanding that
9 it's not in your report, does that mean it didn't happen, the shooting
10 that is reported in July 25th, or just that it wasn't reported back to
12 A. The fact that I'm not aware of it obviously, Mr. Kehoe, doesn't
13 mean it didn't happen. If it happened or not, I don't know.
14 Q. Looking at this particular document in conjunction with the
15 insert that you have in P744 for the 26th of July, you would agree with
16 me, Colonel, that what this reflects is shooting back and forth across
17 the confrontation line, the HV on to the ARSK and the ARSK on to the HV?
18 A. Mr. Kehoe, if the information in this report is accurate, then I
19 would agree with you. But I have no way of knowing whether it is.
20 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time I'll offer into evidence
22 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D812.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D812 is admitted into evidence.
1 Let me just try to understand fully your question and also the
2 answer, Mr. Kehoe. One report is what happened on the 26th.
3 MR. KEHOE: Correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The document is about what happened on the --
5 MR. KEHOE: 25th.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So you say shooting both directions would include
7 shooting in one direction one day and then shooting back the next day.
8 Is that how I have to understand.
9 MR. KEHOE: If I may clear this up.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. Let us just go from your document, sir, for the 26th of July.
13 If the general area of Cetina is a position being held by the
14 ARSK where impacts are reported, and the area of Antica Glava heights is
15 a position that's being held by the HV, you are reporting impacts in the
16 both of those locations.
17 Is that not correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And would that not indicate to you, based on the impacts in those
20 locations, that the ARSK is firing on the HV and the HV is firing on the
22 A. If I had reporting to indicate that firing had occurred from both
23 sides, I would have included that. As I mentioned, the document you
24 provided, it is the first time I'm seeing that. If that is accurate, and
25 I have no reason to say it is or isn't, then I would agree with you.
1 MR. KEHOE: I don't know if that tends to lend a bit of clarity
2 to the issue, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It certainly reduces the time issue to six hours
4 rather than to two days.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. KEHOE:
7 Q. On that score, the entry that you have is for the 26th of July.
8 MR. KEHOE: And the particular order that's on the screen, Judge,
9 is it's from a day prior to that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm aware of that, yes.
11 MR. KEHOE: The submission, Your Honour, I didn't want the -- to
12 lead the Court to believe that we are submitting this as happening on the
13 same day.
14 Q. Now, going back, if we may, to your reconnaissance, without
15 rehashing, you viewed the build-up in Sector North and then on your
16 helicopter ride down on the 3rd, I do believe it was on the 3rd, was it
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. On the 3rd you viewed the HV building up yet again. Is that
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And when you got to Knin, the individual who assisted you and
23 drove you around was Captain Berikoff, wasn't it?
24 A. That's correct, sir.
25 Q. Now, basically, sir, as you were driving around, it was
1 Captain Berikoff who informed you of the various facilities around Knin
2 that you were driving past. Is that not correct?
3 A. In the downtown, yes, sir.
4 Q. And you know that he just got to the area on the 21st of July.
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And Captain Berikoff noted for this Court, page 7702, he noted
7 that: "Prior to the offensive, my task was to go to various areas of
8 Sector South, and Knin was not one of my priority tasks in this area. I
9 knew the military facilities on the main street and the main area. Those
10 that were off the main streets, I was not aware of."
11 So you would agree with me, sir, that as you were driving through
12 Knin, Captain Berikoff's knowledge as to the various facilities and their
13 various uses in Knin was limited?
14 MR. RUSSO: Objection, Your Honour. First, I should have risen a
15 bit earlier. The procedure which is being conducted here is, to my mine,
16 a bit opposite to what we had agreed to. If there is something in the
17 witness's statement which is different from what Mr. Berikoff's testimony
18 indicates, I believe Mr. Kehoe should put Mr. Williams's statement to him
19 first and then confront him with what Mr. Berikoff has to say.
20 What is happening now is Mr. Kehoe telling Mr. Williams
21 essentially what Mr. Berikoff about his limited knowledge, and now he's
22 telling Mr. Williams to agree to Mr. Berikoff's statement.
23 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I may. This is a Prosecution witness
24 who told this Court that his knowledge of facilities in Knin --
25 MR. RUSSO: Can we have the witness please take his earphones off
1 at this discussion --
2 JUDGE ORIE: He might understand some of this, Mr. Russo.
3 If the matter is covered by the statement that is in evidence,
4 then there's no need to ask again to the witness what he knows about the
5 event, because then he has already told us what it is about.
6 The guidance of the Chamber is that no evidence given by another
7 witness should be put to a witness who's then -- who is examined. If
8 not, prior to putting it to him, he has given his own answers to
9 questions related to the matter covered by the other evidence.
10 Now, I would have to check exactly ...
11 MR. RUSSO: If I could add to that, Your Honour. Mr. Williams is
12 now being asked about either the basis or the full extent of
13 Mr. Berikoff's knowledge which is not contained in Mr. Williams's
14 statement. So he should first be asked what he knows about the extent or
15 depth of Mr. Berikoff's knowledge before he is confronted with what
16 Mr. Berikoff has to say about it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's not part of the guidance.
18 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Your Honour --
19 JUDGE ORIE: You take the witness to the 21st of July, Mr. Kehoe,
20 and what exactly is it in his statement or is it in this document --
21 MR. KEHOE: In his statement on page 7702.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ...
23 MR. RUSSO: That's the testimony of Mr. Berikoff.
24 MR. KEHOE: Correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now -- I'm now asking myself where you have
1 dealt with the matter, Mr. Berikoff, also dealt with in this statement of
2 this witness.
3 MR. KEHOE: This witness has testified that he came --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Can you guide me to where exactly to find it.
5 MR. KEHOE: On page 3.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Page 3 of his second statement.
7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, page 3.
9 MR. KEHOE: That would be of P25. The first full paragraph at
10 the top. "When we went back to Knin where Captain Berikoff took me
11 around the town and we discussed the town and the terrain around Knin,
12 this was a very helpful discussion for me when later on assessing the
13 attack on Knin by the HV."
14 Now that goes to the very heart of what Captain Berikoff knew or
15 didn't know.
16 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I would completely disagree with that.
17 It says it was a helpful discussion for him. Mr. Williams doesn't
18 indicate anywhere in his statement what he knows about the depth of
19 Mr. Berikoff's knowledge.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- perhaps it takes less time perhaps to ask
21 the witness first the question suggested by Mr. Russo and then we can
22 move on and then go into further depth of this matter.
23 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge, I don't know if you want to take a
24 break right now and I can ask Mr. Russo what he wants me to ask, because
25 I'm completely at sea on this question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I see that there's a slight difference. It is
2 perceived apparently by the two parties in a different way. You've got
3 25 minutes to see what Mr. Russo would suggest you ask first.
4 We'll have a break for 25 minutes.
5 We resume at ten minutes past 4.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I'm fully confident that you resolved the
10 MR. KEHOE: We have resolved the matter and I think that we have
11 clarified it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. KEHOE:
14 Q. Now, suffice it to say, that -- and I just refer you back to --
15 if I may, Mr. Russo does the witness have a copy of his supplemental
16 information sheet?
17 MR. RUSSO: Yes, he does. That should be at the -- I believe the
18 fourth tab.
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. Suffice it say, Colonel, that when Captain Berikoff was driving
21 you around on the 3rd of August and explaining various facilities to you,
22 he, in fact, got some wrong, didn't he? And I refer you to your
23 supplemental sheet, the corrections under 65 ter 5547, where you note
24 that Captain Berikoff told that you the Tvik factory was an ARSK weapons
25 storage site.
1 Do you see that?
2 A. I see that and that's correct.
3 Q. Okay. And how many other facilities did Captain Berikoff inform
4 you of that he was incorrect about, if you know?
5 A. Captain Berikoff did not talk specifically about any other
6 facilities. The tour of Knin, that was he and I. I asked him to take me
7 to Strmica so that I could see the check-point there. So I directed that
8 part of the tour. I knew where we were going to. But in Knin, I
9 couldn't specify other ones that he actually talked about. I don't
11 Q. And how long was -- I'm sorry.
12 How long was this drive around Knin that you had with
13 Captain Berikoff?
14 A. This drive was several hours.
15 Q. Would that have included your drive into Strmica and back or just
16 in the town of Knin
17 A. Just in the town of Knin itself, sir.
18 Q. Now, you also told us in your statement that -- and I quote you
19 on your 1996 statement, on page 3, that: "It is difficult for me to make
20 an accurate assessment about the civilian population since I had just
21 arrived in Knin."
22 Do you see that, sir? That's in the first full paragraph on page
23 3, about five lines down. Do you see it, sir?
24 A. No, I'm still looking for it, sir. Page 3?
25 Q. It's your 19 -- it's P25, your 1996 statement.
1 A. Mm-hm.
2 Q. Page 3. First -- not the carry-over paragraph but the first full
3 paragraph about five lines down: "It is difficult."
4 A. Right. I see it now, sir.
5 Q. So, in addition to having limited knowledge about the Knin area,
6 you had a very limited -- you had no knowledge about the civilian
8 A. That's correct, sir. I had no way of telling whether what I saw
9 on the street was the same or average from previous days.
10 Q. Likewise, you --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. ...
12 MR. KEHOE: Sorry, Judge.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The -- yes. The pause is not only for finalising
14 the translation but also to take a breath.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. Likewise, sir, you saw, if you go down two further lines:
18 "Soldiers walking around."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now, you also saw -- if we just go ahead a day, troop
21 transports, ARSK troop transports, moving through Knin on the 4th, didn't
23 A. I'm trying to find that line, sir.
24 Q. Okay. Let me go back to 744, which is your chronology. And if I
25 can take you to the 5th of August at 1330. And that would be four pages
1 in on P744.
2 Now, if you note that in the insert for 1330, in the middle of
3 page, are you with me, Colonel?
4 A. I am, Mr. Kehoe.
5 Q. You note in the last sentence in that entry that: "The ARSK
6 troop transport vehicles we saw yesterday are now back."
7 A. Right, I see that.
8 Q. So from that, sir, that indicates that you saw troop -- ARSK
9 troop transports moving or in Knin on the 4th of August. Correct?
10 A. That I don't recall, sir.
11 Q. Colonel, I do understand this is some years down the line, but
12 the chronology that you set forth in 744 was done shortly after the
13 events in Knin from the 4th to the 7th or even the latter part of
14 August of 1995, were they not?
15 A. That's correct, sir.
16 Q. So based on the record that you kept, you at least indicate that
17 you saw ARSK troop transports on the 4th.
18 A. I would agree with that and I have no reason to doubt it but I do
19 not recollect that.
20 Q. And, Colonel, I appreciate that. I know it's been a long time,
21 sir. I do appreciate that.
22 Let me turn our attention just briefly to the troops and I would
23 like to show you a piece from a book that has been introduced certainly
24 in part to date by General Sekulic, an ARSK operations commander.
25 MR. KEHOE: And what I'd like to bring up is 1D44-0003. And once
1 it comes up I would like in that, page 0126. In English, I'm sorry, yes.
2 Q. Just for reference purposes, Colonel, this was written by the
3 ARSK General Sekulic, which was the commander or chief of operations.
4 Now, if I can just go down to the bottom portion of that page.
5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I understand there is a B/C/S version
6 but it is a little difficult to match up per se. If we could move ahead
7 with just the English at this point, I think we could -- it might be a
8 bit quicker.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the -- the B/C/S version is primarily serving
10 the interests of the accused and, of course, the public. So, therefore,
11 I would urge you to at least find it but at the same time we can proceed,
12 if --
13 MR. KEHOE: I apologise, Your Honour. They will be searching for
15 Q. Colonel, this is a comment by General Sekulic and do you see the
16 paragraph: "Prior to the 4th of August."
17 A. I do.
18 Q. It notes: "Prior to 4 August, this combat group coordinated with
19 police battalion and the 2nd Guards Brigade in the defence of Dinara. On
20 the day when Oluja," which is Storm, "started, the Guards Brigade was not
21 in Dinara but resting in Knin."
22 Does that refresh your recollection in any fashion, Colonel, of
23 the soldiers that you observed and you talked about in your statement or
24 in these troop transports that you may have observed on the 4th of
1 A. It doesn't, Mr. Kehoe. I didn't see any indication of any unit
2 flashes or any large number of soldiers. So I couldn't identify what
3 unit they were from.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, where do we see the troops -- in the
5 troop transport vehicles.
6 MR. KEHOE: If -- Your Honour, what -- what --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to -- oh, you say you may have
8 observed, yes.
9 MR. KEHOE: Look at the insert on 744 at -- on the 5th of
10 August at 1330.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It says that the vehicles were --
12 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- yes, but it doesn't say anything about who were
14 in the vehicles, neither the day before nor on that same day.
15 MR. KEHOE: That's right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore if we -- we should limit ourselves to
17 what the text says especially if the witness has no recollection of it.
18 MR. KEHOE: And with all due respect, Judge, what I'm trying to
19 do is -- the witness said he didn't recall the troop movement on the 4th,
20 and I was just trying to show him another document with the hopes of
21 refreshing his recollection if possible.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In that you now put the troops into the troop
23 transport vehicles.
24 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ... what I was more interested
2 is just if, in fact, that refreshed his recollection as to the troops, if
3 any, that he observed on the 4th.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time I'll offer into evidence
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
8 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D813.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check ...
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. Now --
14 JUDGE ORIE: But just ... let me just -- it is a -- it is part of
15 a book.
16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we limit ourselves to these pages.
18 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge, I think --
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I just want to know for sure. Of course I could
20 check that what exactly the document is, how long it is. Is it a
21 selection of the book?
22 MR. KEHOE: It has been, Judge. And we have been in a series of
23 discussions and put selections of this book in with the hopes of
24 ultimately putting the entire compilation in. It is -- the excerpts that
25 we have so far uploaded in D44-0003 is pages 156 to 247.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, the issue is simply the following. You are
2 putting a page to the witness and then we have to check -- we have no 65
3 ter numbers neither do we have -- so then we have to check in the -- I do
4 understand that what you now tender into evidence, but let me check that,
5 is an 81-page document. So we are not tendering at this moment one or
6 two or three pages just for the context but the document uploaded under
7 this number is 88 pages. One page has been used and now, of course, the
8 Chamber wants to avoid -- if we look at one page that we always get, for
9 nothing, another hundred attached to it, where we have no guidance as to
10 the relevance of the other pages, et cetera.
11 So I -- you're invited to -- to select for the purposes of
12 introduction of this piece of evidence through this witness relevant
13 pages sufficient to have context and the -- and the portion we
14 specifically dealt with and not to present as another almost 80 pages in
15 addition to that, which we would not know what to do with it.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. KEHOE: If I may by way of clarity, Judge, some of those
18 other pages have been used in various -- in various times during the
19 course of this, and we will be using it in the future as well.
20 I understand the difficulties and I understand that Your Honour
21 and the Bench does not want clutter, for lack of a better of term.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We have so many books to read, Mr. Kehoe, that we're
23 not seeking other ones but we want to read the relevant evidence which is
24 introduced in an efficient way through a witness.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And then, at this moment, it cannot be admitted as
3 it stands now. Make a further selection. We know Mr. Russo has no
4 objections and if finally, page by page, we get the whole book, then
5 perhaps we could reorganize at the end and say it is one book which is in
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Colonel, I'd just like to shift subjects to just move on to the
10 actual shelling of the 4th of August.
11 Now, the first point is that you note in your -- P26, your 2007
12 statement, that -- in paragraph 2 that the -- "appeared to me that the
13 purpose" -- we're talking about the shelling. "It appeared to me that
14 the purpose was to induce the civilian population to flee."
15 Do you see that, sir?
16 A. You said paragraph 2, sir?
17 Q. Sorry, paragraph 3 in your 2007 statement, that would be P926.
18 A. Right. I see that in paragraph 3, sir.
19 Q. Now in your supplemental information sheet, you noted that the
20 reports from UN personnel regarding targeting of purely residential areas
21 came from UN CIVPOL and UN military personnel?
22 A. That's correct, sir.
23 Q. So you do not know that of your own personal knowledge, because
24 you didn't observe any shelling of civilian areas.
25 A. My observation point was from the balcony of the UN headquarters.
1 Q. Okay. My question is from the -- your observation point, you
2 cannot tell this Chamber that you observed any shelling of civilian
4 MR. RUSSO: Objection, Your Honour. The -- later on in that same
5 paragraph you can read: "What I mean by that is that purely civilian
6 areas were hit by shells during this time."
7 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, my question -- this is cross-examination
8 and if Mr. Russo wants to resuscitate the witness, he can. But the issue
9 is did he observe the shelling of civilian areas, yes or no.
10 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, then he should be pointed to the
11 portions of his statement which address where he says he saw that and
12 then to ask him if it is either true or not, not to put it to him in the
13 context of not knowing where he say it in any of his three or four
15 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, I think the question was whether from the
17 witness' observation point that -- whether he could or could not, it was
18 suggested that he could not tell the Chamber, that he observed any of the
19 shelling and we'll hear the answer of the witness, and whereas you find
20 reasons in his statement to deny that it is correct, we'll hear from the
21 witness. He will tell us.
22 The question whether you could observe the shelling from your
23 observation point.
24 THE WITNESS: Right, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And it was suggested that you could not.
1 THE WITNESS: I could not observe the impact of shells from my
2 point of view, correct.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. Now, the actual counting that you talk about in your supplemental
5 sheet and also in some detail at -- in your 1996 statement at page 4
6 where you note -- sorry.
7 Starting at the top of page 4 where you talk about where, "We
8 were counting the shells coming in."
9 Do you see that, sir?
10 A. The first paragraph or the --
11 Q. The first paragraph, the carry over paragraph.
12 A. Right, I see that, sir.
13 Q. Now the counting of the shells, sir, this is a count that you got
14 in large part from Colonel Leslie. Isn't that right?
15 A. That's not correct.
16 Q. It's not correct, okay.
17 Let me show you P102.
18 Now, this is an UNMO situation report for the 4th of August at
19 1200. The first full paragraph -- excuse me, this is -- is this -- if we
20 can go to, I'm sorry, P101. My apologies.
21 My apologies, Colonel and to the Court. This is an UNMO report
22 and look at the first paragraph: "HV shelling on Knin started on the 4th
23 at 0500, August, and continued up till the 4th at 1040. Total around 350
24 to 400 artillery MRL
25 Do you agree to that number, sir?
1 A. I have not seen this report before. I have no reason to doubt
2 that that's what they thought the artillery fire was from the UNMO point
3 of view.
4 Q. And the UNMOs were located in UN Sector South in the same
5 location you were. Isn't that right?
6 A. For the most part they were, sir, yes.
7 Q. Now, you also note in your report that -- this is on, again, your
8 1996 report in the first carry over paragraph that MRLs, M63s were used?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Do you see that, sir?
11 A. I see that.
12 Q. Now were these used by the ARSK or being used by the HV?
13 A. My understanding was that the HV had them in your inventory, not
14 the ARSK.
15 Q. Who told you that?
16 A. My understanding from previous reporting and from our
17 understanding of what equipment went to what countries when the former
19 Q. Let me show you D85.
20 As this is coming up, where were the HV positions at that time?
21 Fire -- artillery positions?
22 MR. RUSSO: Sorry, Your Honour. At what time?
23 MR. KEHOE: Fair enough.
24 Q. The morning of the 4th of August.
25 A. The morning of the 4th of August, I and several other individuals
1 were counting shells that were coming over the camp, so from the south of
2 the UN camp in Knin.
3 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that the firing positions that you
4 observed by the HV were well in excess of ten kilometres away, ten to 20
5 kilometres away?
6 A. The range of the artillery could make that possible, yes.
7 Q. Now, let us look at the M63. And this is an item that gives the
8 actual range of an M63 as 8.6 kilometres.
9 So if you, in fact, observed M63 shells being fired that day, it
10 couldn't have been by the HV, could it?
11 A. If I understand your question correctly --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, let's first analyse questions and answers
13 we had early.
14 You said -- the witness said that the artillery was fired from
15 the south and came over their heads. He didn't give any distance.
16 Then your next question was, whether it would be fair to say that
17 the firing positions you observed were well in excess of ten kilometres
18 away, ten to 20 kilometres away. You suggested it could have been ten to
19 20 kilometres.
20 Then the witness said: "The range of the artillery could make
21 that possible."
22 Now what then follows that in your question you start from a
23 point of view that it was at that distance. That's certainly not what
24 was said by the witness. It has not been established in any way. The
25 only thing the witness says that if we see artillery firing over our
1 heads coming from the south, it could have been fired at a distance of
2 ten to 20 kilometres.
3 But whether they were at ten or 20 kilometres and, therefore,
4 whether it would be impossible to see and hear artillery fired over your
5 head from a shorter distance has not in any way established and therefore
6 it is confusing. It is confusing me and it might confuse the witness as
8 And it did not -- the sequence of questions you have not
9 seriously considered the answer of the witness. We should clarify this,
10 if he has any reason other than that it is possible to fire artillery
11 from ten to 20 kilometres, whether he has any other reason to believe
12 that there must have been at that distance and could not have been any
13 closer because that is it the whole issue.
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please try to keep our -- seek clarity
16 rather than mixing up matters and confusing matters.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
19 Q. Colonel, the document that you see before you, D85, has a range
20 of an M63 of 8.6 kilometres. In the morning of the 4th of August, 1995
21 did you learn that morning or at any other time when you were gathering
22 information about Operation Storm, that on the morning of the 4th, that
23 the HV was firing from within 8.6 kilometres?
24 A. No, I did not, Mr. Kehoe.
25 Q. In fact, sir, when you did your assessment -- let me rephrase
2 When you did your assessment, did you conclude that the HV firing
3 positions were approximately 20 kilometres away?
4 A. I don't recall that.
5 Q. Did you make such an assessment when you were looking back at how
6 Operation Storm was conducted?
7 A. I don't believe I ever did.
8 Q. Well, if you didn't, sir, did anybody else in the UN do it, to
9 your knowledge?
10 A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
11 Q. How about as part of the Canadian contingent?
12 A. Also not to my knowledge, sir.
13 Q. So your testimony, sir, is that -- I withdraw the question at
14 this point.
15 Now, the actual shelling that you and the other individuals
16 counted was based on what you heard, wasn't it?
17 A. Part of it was based on what we heard directly going overhead of
18 the camp and then explosions in the town and the area, yes, sir.
19 Q. Let me show you an item that's in evidence, D741. And if I can
20 have page 6 of that document. And this, I will tell you, Colonel, is the
21 diary or translation of the diary of an ECMM official who was present at
22 the time.
23 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, again, I would ask that we adhere to the
24 same procedure we've done before if this is going to be --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, of course I have got no idea whether the
1 matter Mr. Kehoe is drawing our attention to and drawing the attention of
2 the witness to at this moment has been covered or not yet. If there's no
3 question I -- we only can, of course, rely on Mr. Kehoe following the
4 guidance of the Chamber.
5 Mr. Kehoe, you're put on notice.
6 MR. KEHOE: I understand, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. KEHOE:
9 Q. Now the first sentence of this and he's talking about -- his
10 diary in his house in Knin: "Today they're harvesting garlic in the
11 kitchen below my terrace. You can hear sporadic shelling out of the
12 Strmica during the morning."
13 Now, from UN Sector South headquarters, did you in fact hear
14 shelling -- well, let me withdraw that and just show you this document
15 first which is P102, which is a situation report for the 4th of August,
16 1995. And Colonel, I would like to show you both of these before I ask
17 any questions about this.
18 As can you see this is a sitrep for 2000 hours on the 4th. If we
19 can go to page 3 at the bottom of the page -- excuse me, all the way to
20 the bottom of that page, if we can scroll down.
21 Reports of KenBat. "There are total of 1230 bombreps, 638 ARSK,
22 592 HVO total."
23 Now, at this particular juncture, sir, there was only one KenBat,
24 observation post in operation and that was up around Strmica, wasn't it?
25 A. Strmica post was Kenyan Battalion, yes.
1 Q. This is -- yes. So this report by the Kenyan Battalion --
2 MR. KEHOE: And just when I say KenBat this is the Kenyan
3 Battalion who is reporting not -- as opposed to CanBat, Canadian
4 Battalion. I know we have had some problem with that before,
5 Your Honour.
6 Q. So the Kenyan Battalion is reporting 1230 bombreps from Strmica
7 and my question to you, sir, is: When you're there in the camp, did you
8 hear those impacts or that shelling taking place up in Strmica?
9 A. If I can confirm one thing, Mr. Kehoe, what date are we talking
10 about in this report?
11 Q. This is -- for clarity sake, so this is the 4th August and is a
12 situation report --
13 MR. KEHOE: If we can just go to the first page of this document
14 in fairness to Colonel Williams. First page, please.
15 Q. That's the first page of the document, Colonel. As you can see
16 at the top, it is 4 August at 2000 hours.
17 A. Right, understood.
18 Q. Now my question to you again is that when you're sitting in UN
19 Sector South could you hear this -- these bombreps that were being
20 reported by the Kenyan Battalion during the 4th of August of 1995?
21 A. When there was artillery rounds firing or landing in Knin we
22 could not; but when there was no sound in Knin from artillery fire, you
23 could hear the echo of distant rounds, but that would be difficult to
24 count. And I note that this goes up to 1800 hours on that day only, so
25 it is not a full day report.
1 Q. Actually it is 2000 hour, I do believe, sir.
2 A. The one on UNMO Sector South daily says 1800, sir.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We see that the date and time on which apparently
6 this document was issued or sent is at 20 hours and the subject is
7 Sector South daily sitrep with -- gives as the time 1800 hours.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. I'm just trying to give the actual
9 time that is on the document itself, so ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the witness says that, as he understands
11 this document, that it covers the period until 1800 hours, which -- which
12 seems fair to me. If it says that that's the subject even if it is
13 written two hours later.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
16 Q. Now, Colonel, also on the 4th, you were aware that there was
17 shelling on the confrontation lines as well, wasn't there?
18 A. I would assume there would be, but I was not aware of exact
19 numbers on the confrontation line.
20 Q. Let me show you 1D55-0004. If you can blow this up just a bit.
21 Just to orient you, Colonel, down below on the left-hand side is
22 the map that you circled upon previously, which is now D928.
23 MR. KEHOE: And the information, Your Honour, from the
24 confrontation lines that we have here is the -- derived from the
25 information received by the Office of the Prosecutor in the war diary.
1 And we've done is attempted to put these confrontation lines in various
2 locales. These various peaks that are before you, Your Honour, are peaks
3 in the mountains themselves.
4 Q. Now, Colonel, taking a look at this particular map, in addition
5 to shelling of Knin, there would, in fact, be shelling at various levels
6 near the confrontation line, would there not?
7 A. I've not seen this particular image before.
8 Q. Let us just take the first item which is the -- the ARSK defence
9 line on the morning of the -- August the 5th at 5.00. Do you see that,
10 sir, the red line?
11 A. The one that mentions Badanj.
12 Q. Yes?
13 A. Yes, I see that.
14 Q. Now based on your analysis of the ARSK, they would have various
15 levels of artillery support, wouldn't they?
16 A. Yes, they would, sir.
17 Q. And the first level of artillery would be at the battalion level
18 which is at the front line itself, right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. The second level of artillery support would be at the brigade
21 level and that would be some distance back from the confrontation line,
22 wouldn't it?
23 A. If the intent was to stay there and fight, that's correct, sir,
24 it would be.
25 Q. And lastly, sir, there is generally an operational level, which
1 is back yet further from the brigade, to support the battalions and the
2 brigades. Isn't that right?
3 A. In a situation where this was displayed as you're saying, that's
4 correct. It would be there to support in areas where the attack or
5 defence is faltering, yes.
6 Q. In addition to these three levels, you also have, in a simple
7 logistics analysis, roads leading up to these various levels, be it at
8 the battalion or the brigade or the operational level, wouldn't you?
9 A. You would have roads that would be dedicated in priority to the
10 brigade or to the battalion depending on the particular usage, that's
12 Q. Now, Colonel on the morning of the 4th, a commander who wanted to
13 attack the enemy would be shelling all three of these levels, wouldn't
15 A. If a commander wanted to attack an opposing army he thought would
16 fight, they would shell these areas to deny him access to the town, if
17 that's what you're getting at.
18 Q. And how many soldiers and artillery pieces did your intelligence
19 reflect that the ARSK had at these three levels?
20 A. I don't recall those numbers.
21 Q. Let us move to the next morning, which is the 5th. And without
22 asking the same questions, as the ARSK is pushed back and the war diary
23 reflects this second confrontation line, you would still have this three
24 levels of artillery support at this confrontation line as well, wouldn't
1 A. You would have still have the three levels of artillery support
2 if the defence had not collapsed.
3 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry. Can I just make a clarification? I'm --
4 it's unclear to me whether or not the witness is being asked what in
5 general would be done, should be done in his opinion a reasonable
6 commander or army would do, or what he has specific information actually
7 was done on the 4th and 5th.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Kehoe was clear in his questions that he
9 is asking what would be done and he is not referring to -- he may suggest
10 that that was done, but that is not his question. Even -- of course, in
11 the answers we find some additional information, for example, the use of
12 artillery. The witness answered the question by saying if a commander
13 wanted to attack an opposing army, well, that of course then would be a
14 condition for the things he said and we should not forget that that was
15 part of his answer.
16 Please proceed.
17 You could even ask whether the witness -- what the witness
18 observed, whether he considered this to be an attack by the ARSK on an
19 opposing army.
20 MR. KEHOE: The HV.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
22 MR. KEHOE: Or the HV, I understand, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is exactly what we are we're talking
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Just taking, Colonel, Mr. Russo's suggestion, on the 4th, was the
3 HV shelling these various artillery support positions that had been set
4 up by the ARSK?
5 A. Not to my knowledge. I also have no knowledge of what ARSK
6 artillery positions remained on the 4th of August, if any.
7 Q. So if we go back just briefly from this document, and we don't
8 need it to go back on the screen, in P102, in the sitrep that you
9 correctly pointed out was from 1800 on the 4th, and we had 638 bombreps
10 by the ARSK, as an intelligence officer do you have any idea where the
11 ARSK was firing those 638 artillery reps from or bombreps from?
12 A. I do not have any knowledge where they were firing from them, no.
13 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we'll offer into evidence
14 1D55-0004 into evidence.
15 MR. RUSSO: No objection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D814.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D814 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. Now, let us go to -- to the specific shelling that you observed,
21 and if I can bring back up P928.
22 Just as a reference point, sir, looking at the locations of P928
23 and focussing on the red and blue items, those are items where you
24 testified that you observed shells impacting.
25 MR. KEHOE: And if I can turn to 1D55-0016. And for -- if we can
1 spin that, please. Your Honour, for references purposes, this is an
2 extract from D131, which is an item that we've discussed previously.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I have not forgotten about it.
4 MR. KEHOE: Well, I say that for Your Honours' purposes but also
5 for the purposes of --
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... no, no, it is
8 MR. KEHOE:
9 Q. Now looking at this, Colonel, you would agree with me that the
10 shelling that you observed, if we can just look at this -- first at the
11 D1 area, that was the shelling you identified at the Tvik factory.
13 A. I would say approximately. And I also note that this image is at
14 least 13 years newer than the previous image, so there may be some
15 construction that's not actually there at the time I was there.
16 Q. I appreciate that, sir.
17 A. Thank you.
18 Q. But that's in the Tvik factory, and D2 being the supply
19 Agroprerada depot?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. The other place that you identified, if we can move down to the
22 area around, you identified some areas around B1. Is that right?
23 A. That's correct, sir.
24 Q. And I take it from your statement that -- excuse me, from your
25 clarification statement that you didn't know where the ARSK headquarters
2 A. That's correct, sir.
3 MR. KEHOE: And for reference purposes, Your Honour, what I'm
4 referring to is the last page of his supplemental sheet.
5 Q. Likewise, sir, the -- you also indicated some areas around -- if
6 I can look -- locate this. You noted the RSK parliament area which is
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. But you didn't know -- did you know that there was RSK TV in that
11 A. I did not, sir.
12 Q. You noted for us as well the area around the railroad junction
13 which is E10?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Now, that of course was the railway junction that one
16 would take out so that they couldn't move on that railway junction.
17 Isn't that right?
18 A. That's correct, sir.
19 Q. So basically the areas that you observed being hit, sir, as an
20 intelligence officer you would conclude were military targets, weren't
22 A. I would conclude that those were military targets in lines with
23 the laws of armed conflict.
24 Q. You are familiar with the concept of dual use for facilities, are
25 you not?
1 A. I am, sir.
2 Q. And let me turn your attention to D718.
3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time I will offer into evidence
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
6 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D815, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D815 is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. KEHOE: Once again my apologies, Your Honour, for moving too
12 JUDGE ORIE: The risk is that it will not be admitted, Mr. Kehoe.
13 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
14 If I can turn to page 3 of this document.
15 Q. Now, just looking at this, sir, if you see the point A 4 in this
17 A. A4, yes, I do.
18 Q. You see that, sir?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Were you aware, on the morning of the 4th, for instance, that --
21 that this school had been used as a mortar position?
22 A. I was unaware of that, sir.
23 Q. How about A6 which is the elementary school. Do you see that,
24 sir? A6 right in the centre of the page. Just look to the right of A4.
25 A. A6, I see. I apologise. I'm not as easily able to familiarize
1 myself with this image because it is a lot newer than the Knin I'm
2 familiar with.
3 Q. I understand, sir. Heaven knows, everybody in this courtroom's
4 been looking at these maps a lot more frequently than we care to talk
6 A. No, that's not it, sir. It's -- this is a 2007 image. I'm used
7 to looking Knin from 1995.
8 Q. I understand, sir.
9 A. Thank you.
10 Q. Just the location of A6, if we may?
11 A. I see it, sir.
12 Q. Now in that elementary school, were you aware that there was an
13 ARSK unit garrisoned at that location?
14 A. I'm not aware that that is a possibility, no, sir.
15 Q. Now, you are likewise familiar with the concept of mobile
16 targets, aren't you?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And mobile targets being soldiers or --
19 A. Columns of armoured vehicle, moving soldiers.
20 Q. Or even a single vehicle?
21 A. A single military vehicle, yes, sir.
22 Q. Now from your position in the UN Sector South balcony, were you
23 aware of units of ARSK soldiers moving around the Knin area?
24 A. I was unaware of units moving around the Knin area, sir.
25 Q. Now, let me just touch on a topic that you noted for, and I think
1 you addressed it with Mr. Russo, concerning harassment fire.
2 Now, you said that there were individual rounds that were -- two
3 or three that were going off through the course of the day and you
4 determined that that was harassment fire. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you recall you and I meeting on the 16th of August of last
7 year, right?
8 A. I recall us meeting in Ottawa
9 Q. Yeah. And did you not tell me that with regard to that shelling,
10 you didn't know if it was harassment, it is hard to say. Don't know if
11 it was harassment or going after other targets.
12 A. It could be either, sir, and my assessment was it could be
13 harassment fire.
14 Q. So as you sit here, you're telling us it could be harassment fire
15 or could be HV going after other targets?
16 A. If, as you said, sir, we're talking about mobile targets, yes, it
17 could be HV going after mobile targets. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And as you sit here, you don't know if it is one or the other?
19 A. I could not with 100 percent certainty say whether it was mobile
20 targets or harassment fire, sir.
21 Q. Now, turning back to the 4th, you chronicle in Exhibit 744 the
22 comings and goings of Captain Berikoff?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And I note at 8.00 on the morning of the 4th, you note that:
25 "Captain Berikoff returns from town."
1 Do you know what he was doing there?
2 A. Sorry, I'm just trying to find the paper.
3 Q. I'm sorry, sir. It's 744. I'm not sure what tab it is.
4 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Russo, could you help us out with that, on 744.
5 MR. RUSSO: The last tab in his sheets.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay. What time are we looking at, sir?
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Just the second page at 8.00 in the morning. Do you see that,
10 A. Where it says: "Captain Berikoff returns from town."
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. What was he doing in town?
13 Q. Yes. Did he tell you?
14 A. He was there on reconnaissance to find out what activity was
15 going on in town.
16 Q. And what did that entail, did he tell you?
17 A. He did not.
18 Q. Was he there by himself or was he there with somebody else? What
19 did he tell you?
20 A. I don't know if he was with somebody else. I would assume he
21 would be because we tended not to by -- our rules was not to travel
22 alone, but I cannot confirm that, sir.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask what "recce" stands for?
24 MR. KEHOE: It's reconnaissance. They call it -- the military
25 lingo for recce is just short for reconnaissance.
1 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir, reconnaissance.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. Later on that day, at -- at 10.10 you have -- Captain Berikoff
6 going to the hospital with the SMEDLO. And two lines down, returning
7 on -- at 11.30.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. What was the purpose of that; do you know?
10 A. Captain Berikoff had gone with the Senior Medical Officer to see
11 if there was any assistance that could be rendered by the Czechs who were
12 our medical personnel in Sector South.
13 Q. You were reporting this back to CanCon as we see in 1225 insert?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Why was that, sir?
16 A. We tried to give them as accurate a picture as we understood at
17 the time, back to our higher headquarters.
18 Q. At that point, Colonel, did you and the other people in
19 Sector South begin to discuss with CanCon taking wounded ARSK soldiers
20 into the compound?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. Did -- did that ever come up?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
24 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Judge.
25 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge, sir.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, no.
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, pardon me.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. Did that ever come up, sir?
5 A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
6 Q. Did at any point on the 4th or the 5th, did you take wounded ARSK
7 soldiers into UN Sector South?
8 A. I have no knowledge of that, sir.
9 Q. Go to the insert for 2300 on the 4th.
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. By 2300, you had already taken the refugee population into
12 UN Sector South. Correct?
13 A. Not at 2300, sir, no.
14 Q. Well, the last sentence here: "Two ARSK officers arrived to
15 discuss request for refugee protection."
16 Who were these ARSK officers you talk about?
17 A. Who were they, sir?
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. I don't know their names. They arrived to talk to General Forand
20 who was at the gate at that time. I requested that he come to the gate
21 so that we could deal with the refugee situation. At that same time, the
22 Krajina Serb officers arrived. I have no idea who they were or what they
23 talked about with General Forand.
24 Q. Well, did General Forand --
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
1 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Judge.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. Were you ever informed as to why -- what went on in this
5 discussion between General Forand and these ARSK officers who came to the
6 gate at that time?
7 A. I was not, sir.
8 Q. Now, 1400 on 744, if you can. It notes, briefing to staff.
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Now you were also briefing G2, weren't you?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Now, one of the people that you were talking with during the
14 course of the day was an individual by the name of Theunens, wasn't it,
15 who was up in G2 in Zagreb
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And what was his role in Zagreb
18 A. He worked in the United Nations headquarters. He was a Belgian
20 Q. And at what time on the 4th did you begin to talk to Mr. Theunens
21 in Zagreb
22 A. I don't recall the exact time, sir. I know at times we did not
23 have communications with anything outside of Knin. We could not contact
25 Q. Have you been made aware that Mr. Theunens works for the
1 Office of the Prosecutor now?
2 A. I had no idea, sir. That is the first time I am hearing that.
3 Q. Now --
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
5 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Judge.
6 Q. During the course of the day on the 4th -- let me withdraw that.
7 How many times during the course of the day on the 4th did you
8 talk to Mr. Theunens?
9 A. I cannot recall talking to him more than once. I know I talked
10 to the Canadian contingent once and Canada once. I don't recall any more
11 than that, sir. I don't recall any more than that, sir.
12 Q. During the course of the day when you were talking to the
13 individuals in Zagreb
14 Joakim Robertsson?
15 A. I don't recall talking to Joakim Robertsson, no. I believe
16 there's an individual called Joakim Robertsson who was an investigator
17 who I talked to afterwards in August or September, but I don't recall
18 talking to him that day, sir.
19 Q. Okay. Now, let us begin to discuss the evening of the 4th and
20 going into the 5th. And in your supplemental statement, you note in the
21 last paragraph of your supplemental statement, P927: "Mr. Williams
22 stated that given that the lack of defence in Knin, he does not believe
23 that there was a military necessity to shell the military targets in Knin
24 particularly on 5 August when the HV should have known there was no
25 defence in the town."
1 Do you see that, sir?
2 A. I see that, sir.
3 Q. Let us talk about that.
4 Now, preliminarily, you knew, sir, as you said previously, that
5 Operation Storm was an operation that was by the HV in both Sector North
6 and Sector South.
7 A. Our assessment was there would be an assault on the Krajina at
8 Sector South and North simultaneously. We were not aware of any Croat
9 plan or Croat operation name, that's correct.
10 Q. And you also -- and you also knew that the headquarters for the
11 army of the Republic of Serb Krajina was located in Knin?
12 A. We knew the headquarters was located in Knin, yes, sir.
13 Q. And you also knew that any successful battle against the ARSK
14 needed -- any success in the battle needed to bring about some damage or
15 destruction to the communication compatibilities of the ARSK and their
16 command structure. Isn't that right?
17 A. In order to defeat an enemy, yes, sir, that would be one way of
18 doing it. Destroying their command structure, yes.
19 Q. Now, let us just talk a little bit about what you wrote in your
20 report at 1715 on the 4th. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. You reflect in your report that the ARSK reports 200 HV deaths.
23 A. That's correct, sir. From the Radio Knin reporting we spoke
24 about earlier.
25 Q. Without going into the number, at the time, Colonel, you --
1 without staying with 200, you knew that as of the evening of the 4th,
2 that the HV sustained quite a few casualties, didn't they, be they
3 wounded or dead?
4 A. We didn't have exact figures, sir, but we assumed and assessed
5 that they would have sustained a fair number of casualties, yes.
6 Q. And let me turn your attention to P698. This is a report by
7 Captain Dangerfield who was a Sector Liaison Officer in UN Sector South.
8 This is his report as of the 4th of August. And let me just -- do you
9 know Captain Dangerfield, sir?
10 A. I have met Captain Dangerfield, yes.
11 Q. And let me just review with you his report, beginning on
12 paragraph 2: "It was a long time before HV HVO made any headway on the
13 ground. In the early afternoon, the picture began to develop and we saw
14 five main areas of attack." And he notes the various areas of attack and
15 the axes.
16 Let us turn to the next page, paragraph 10.
17 Paragraph 10, SLO assessment for 5 August 1995. "Saturday,
18 05 August should see another initial heavy artillery barrage of HV
19 objectives. G2 assessment is that Knin may fall by dark on 05 August."
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. "In order to do so, I believe that the HV will require a more
22 successful day than today. Troops approaching from the south face a
23 stiff opposition."
24 Now, before we move on, was that your assessment as well that
25 troops moving from the south, as they came in on the 4th, were going to
1 face a stiff opposition?
2 A. No sir. My assessment was the one line saying: Due to
3 assessment, Knin may fall by dark 05 August." The rest I would believe
4 to be his assessment, though I have not seen Captain Dangerfield's report
5 before today.
6 Q. So you disagree with him?
7 A. I have no knowledge of his vantage point, what he is seeing at
8 that point in time.
9 Q. Do you know how long Captain Dangerfield spent in the Knin area
10 prior to you getting there on the 3rd?
11 A. I do not, sir.
12 Q. "SLO recces last week saw considerable evidence of road use by
13 ARSK tracked vehicles."
14 Were you aware of that, sir, of the ARSK moving tracked vehicles
15 the prior week?
16 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, let me, again, just object. This
17 procedure seems to be getting flipped all of the time. Mr. Williams
18 should have been asked first what his information was and then be
19 confronted with what Mr. Dangerfield said.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That is the guidance the Chamber gave, so if we are
21 talking about track vehicles then we could ask the witness before we put
22 to him what Mr. Dangerfield has testified.
23 Please proceed.
24 Or has reported, I should say.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Colonel, were you aware that, in the prior week, that UN
3 personnel had seen evidence of track vehicles ARSK track vehicles?
4 A. I'm not aware of the information in Captain Dangerfield's report,
5 no, sir, reference to track vehicles.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Here again, Mr. Kehoe, the right procedure would be
7 whether the witness had seen it; if he had not seen it, whether he was
8 aware that others had seen it and then put to him --
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
11 Q. Now, Colonel, did you observe a considerable presence of ARSK
12 forces in the area on the 4th and the 5th of August?
13 A. I did not, sir.
14 Q. Let us turn to the next page.
15 So did anybody in UN Sector South inform you that there was a
16 considerable presence of ARSK forces in the area?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. So if we look at paragraph 12: "While Knin may come under heavy
19 attack again, the considerable presence of ARSK forces in the area will
20 require more time before they come under direct fire from HV tanks."
21 So this particular assessment of the considerable presence of
22 ARSK forces by Captain Dangerfield, is it your testimony that you
23 disagree with that assessment?
24 A. I can't comment on his assessment because I didn't have access to
25 the facts that Captain Dangerfield had, sir.
1 Q. So would it be fair to say, Colonel, that Captain Dangerfield had
2 more information than you did upon which to make this assessment?
3 A. If the information he has in his report is accurate, sir, I have
4 no reason to doubt that -- or I have no way to confirm it, then I would
5 say he had access to more information than I did, yes, sir.
6 Q. Was it your assessment at the time, Colonel, that there was
7 either two options available at the end of the day on the 4th: Surrender
8 by the ARSK and President Martic; or a -- for lack of a better term,
9 bloody last stand in Knin? Was that your assessment on the evening of
10 the 4th?
11 A. I don't believe so, sir.
12 Q. Let us turn to paragraph 15. "The request for aid to evacuation
13 women and children, leaving behind ARSK troops only, shows signs of a
14 disturbing final showdown. With the advancing HV/HVO troops looking at
15 Knin as their final objective and ARSK troops remaining. Milan
16 will have to surrender or face a bloody last stand in the capital of
18 A. Right, sir, and I see that as Captain Dangerfield's conclusion or
19 assessment of one of the potential courses of action for the
20 Republika Srpska Krajina.
21 Q. And my question for you is: Did you see those as the two options
22 that were confronting the ARSK on the evening of the 4th of August?
23 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
25 MR. RUSSO: I believe that question has already been asked and
1 already been answered.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, that seems to be the case.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. Now, as part of your intelligence gathering, were you aware that
6 the ARSK was withdrawing troops for the direct defence of the Knin on the
7 evening of the 4th of August?
8 A. I'm not sure I understand. When you say withdrawing are you
9 indicating from a specific location or ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, could you please try to make it two
11 questions, whether they were withdrawing and whether the witness is aware
12 of the purposes of this withdrawal.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
15 Q. On the evening of the 4th of August, were the ARSK -- did they
16 begin to withdraw from their front line positions?
17 A. Are we talking specifically within Knin, sir? Or within
18 Sector North and South.
19 Q. Let's just talk about Sector South.
20 A. Sector South; very good, sir. No specific knowledge that they
21 were withdrawing from positions.
22 Q. Did you ever learn in your intelligence gathering that
23 General Mrksic had ordered forces to withdraw from various -- any
24 position to -- for the defence of Knin?
25 A. I was not aware that General Mrksic had actually ordered a
1 withdrawal of that. So I'm not aware of that.
2 Q. Let me show you D106. This is a transcript from a radio report,
3 2330 hours on the 4th with Belgrade Radio.
4 Now my first question with regard to this document, Colonel, is
5 this: If you had learned that General Mrksic was in contact with
6 Radio Belgrade
7 to you that the HV was unsuccessful in completely eliminating the ARSK's
8 communication capabilities.
9 Isn't that so?
10 A. I don't believe I could say that as far as completely
11 eliminating. The fact that the General could talk to Radio Belgrade
12 would mean he had some forms of communication, yes, sir.
13 Q. And let me look down about five lines.
14 The question is: "Does that mean our lines have been
15 penetrated?" General Mrksic answers: "No. We are maintaining contact.
16 Our forces withdrew to positions for the direct defence of Knin?"
17 Now, your testimony is that you did not learn about that?
18 A. That's correct, sir.
19 Q. But you did say, sir, that on the morning of the 5th, and let me
20 flip back to P744, on the morning of the 5th at 6.10, ARSK tanks and one
21 BOV, one truck, heading south to north through Knin. I don't want to get
22 ahead of you, Colonel, but do you see that on the 5th of August?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. That was -- so what you observed was a mechanized unit on the
1 A. That's correct sir.
2 Q. Let me show you again another portion of this Sekulic book. And
3 by the way, you saw this going from south to north.
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Than would have been from the direction of Drnis, wouldn't it?
6 A. Drnis is to the south of Knin, yes, sir.
7 Q. Let us turn our attention to 1D44-0119.
8 MR. KEHOE: Again, this is a portion of this book, Judge.
9 JUDGE ORIE: How large is the portion?
10 MR. KEHOE: Well, one portion I have is -- if I could just have
11 one moment just for a little clarity.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. KEHOE: If I can call 1D44-0003. The English is 1D44-0119.
14 And the B/C/S is 1D44-0029.
15 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry, I think that is already admitted as
16 Exhibit D813.
17 MR. KEHOE: No, it's not.
18 MR. RUSSO: Is that not what was admitted earlier?
19 MR. KEHOE: No, it's a different portion, sir.
20 Q. Beginning on the page with -- this is on the 4th of August again,
21 General Sekulic's book: "At 2000 hours a meeting was held at the
22 Main Staff operation centre. Attended by 7th Corps Brigade commanders
23 and the Corps commander, Slobodan Kovacevic. The meeting was chaired by
24 the commander of the army of the Serbian Krajina Main Staff,
25 General Mile Mrksic."
1 If we could just move down three lines. "Commander Mrksic's
2 position that the evacuation was a matter for the authorities indicates
3 that the army ought to continue with defence and facilitate the
4 evacuation of the population."
5 Skipping a sentence: "In order to defend Knin "--
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at what page we are exactly at
7 this moment in the book.
8 MR. KEHOE: This is page 24 of the book, but it's 1D44 --
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, that seems to be the translation. I'm looking
10 at the book itself.
11 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me?
12 JUDGE ORIE: The original.
13 MR. KEHOE: In the B/C/S it is 180.
14 JUDGE ORIE: 180 is in evidence as D813, as Mr. Russo said,
15 Mr. Kehoe. That's a 93-page document, and it is page 27 out of the 93.
16 That is at least what my computer tells me.
17 MR. KEHOE: I have been informed, Judge, that with regard to
18 this, that we were invited by the Chamber to make an excerpt out of this
19 which we have attempted to do at this juncture. I mean, we will take the
20 Court's guidance and then --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then it has not yet been uploaded. What is
22 at this moment in the e-court system is still the whole of the document
23 under number D813. That is, 93 pages.
24 No, if Mr. Russo says so and you say, no, it's not the case, then
25 perhaps it might be worthwhile to verify perhaps for a second and see
1 whether there's any merit in what he says, as there appears to be.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: There is a chance that there is a backlog in
4 updating. If that is case, I totally, without good cause, ask you at
5 this occasion to listen to Mr. Russo, which doesn't mean that you should
6 not now and then listen to him.
7 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I always listen to Mr. Russo.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, but apparently as it appears --
9 MR. KEHOE: My guiding light.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- it appears to be still in the system, but it may
11 be for other reasons that, although you have reduced the size of D813,
12 that is not yet in our system. And to the extent I was not fully
13 informed about this backlog, I apologise for addressing you as I did.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. KEHOE:
16 Q. Colonel, if we could get back and continue to take a look at this
17 item, if we may. Beginning with that sentence you see in the order to
18 defend Knin?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. "In order to defend Knin, the commander of the army of the
21 Serbian Krajina Main Staff ordered the commander of the 7th Corps,
22 General Kovacevic, to pull a battalion out of the 75th Brigade by morning
23 and deploy it in positions for the defence of Knin at Bulina Strana."
24 If we go down skipping that one paragraph to the next beginning
25 item, sentence on the next paragraph: "Chief of operations department
1 went to Drnis to the 75th Brigade command and Commander
2 Vladimir Davidovic to speed up the dispatch of a battalion to Bulina
3 Strana Sector North of Knin."
4 Now you know, Colonel, based on your function in G2 that the 75th
5 Brigade, the two digits, two numbers, 7-5, that was a mechanized brigade
6 which had tanks and APCs. Is that right?
7 A. The 75th Brigade had mechanized -- as a mech brigade would have
8 tanks and armoured personnel carriers, that's correct.
9 Q. And as we see from the other -- that paragraph that it was
10 supposed to be done by the morning that would be the morning of the 5th?
11 A. That's correct, sir.
12 Q. And likewise, that Commander Davidovic was to deploy them to
13 Bulina Strana. Do you see that, sir?
14 A. Sorry, yes, I do.
15 Q. Okay. Now. You were also aware that the position of certainly
16 UN Sector South at this time, that the Croats were not in direct fire
17 range of Knin as of the evening of the 4th, were they?
18 A. Not to my knowledge, sir, no.
19 Q. Now, based on -- if you were in the position -- let me say this.
20 Let me show first before I ask you a question. Let me show you
22 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, before I move on I will tender this --
23 this page which is 1D44-000 -- 0119 in the English, which is 1D44-0029 in
24 the B/C/S.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, no objection. Let me just now -- one
1 second, please.
2 MR. KEHOE: Now let us go to --
3 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
4 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Judge.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So we're now talking about same book, different
7 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is just one page is sufficient for the context.
9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit D816, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D816 is admitted into evidence.
13 It is only now, Mr. Russo, that I became aware that when you said
14 D813 I was sufficiently thinking about that that was exactly the document
15 on which the Defence was invited to reduce the size. So the observation
16 at that time that it was already in evidence, of course, did not assist
17 much because we all knew that Mr. Kehoe would limit the size of that
18 portion and it might well outside of the limited portion he would choose.
19 Let's proceed.
20 MR. KEHOE: [Microphone not activated]
21 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry, I don't mean to repeat the same issue. I
22 think this is actually --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But not necessarily the part that will remain
24 in D813.
25 MR. RUSSO: This next exhibit is D814. I believe it is the
1 Google Earth images which were called up and admitted earlier.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We have seen this picture before, Mr. Kehoe, that's
3 for --
4 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's the wrong number. Let's get to the right
7 MR. KEHOE: [Microphone not activated]
8 Q. Now the area of Bulina Strana, do you see that on the map, sir?
9 A. I do, sir.
10 Q. Are you familiar with that area?
11 A. I have been by that area once. I'm not overly familiar but I
12 have passed by there, yes.
13 Q. And the Bulina Strana area is the high ground in that locale, is
14 it not?
15 A. Just in that direction from Knin, yes, it's, sir.
16 Q. So, sir, based on -- well, let just look at these particular
17 locations. You saw a mechanized unit at 6.00 in the morning travelling
18 from Drnis, pass the camp and into Knin out of your sight line. Is that
20 A. That's correct, sir.
21 Q. You don't know, as you sit here, whether or not that mechanized
22 unit was deployed as we saw in the order by General Mrksic to
23 Bulina Strana or not, do you?
24 A. I do not know if that unit was deployed as ordered by
25 General Mrksic to Bulina Strana. You're correct, sir, I do not know
2 Q. If a mechanized unit was deployed to Bulina Strana, or if any
3 troops were deployed to Bulina Strana as reflected on that, they would
4 have a high ground location upon which to fire into Knin, didn't they?
5 A. If they were deployed, yes, they would, sir.
6 Q. Now, in addition to that, on the morning or throughout the day on
7 the 5th, did you receive reports from, for instance, the Canadian
8 Battalion that there were ARSK mechanized units or other pieces of
9 equipment moving towards Knin?
10 A. I don't recall receiving reports, sir.
11 Q. Let me turn your attention to D124. This is a sitrep of the 5th
12 of August, the dating on it is 1700. Excuse me, 1900. And correct me if
13 I'm wrong, Colonel, but it reflects information up to 1800 on the 4th
14 or -- 1800 on the 4th until 1800 on the 5th. Is that right?
15 A. That's correct, sir, but you're asking me if I received a report
16 from the Canadian Battalion. This is an UNMO sector report. I'm
18 Q. I'm just trying to reference you and orient you, Colonel. I'm
19 going to take to --
20 A. Very good.
21 Q. If we could go four pages in to the CanBat AOR.
22 As we're doing that, just again you referenced this mechanized --
23 ARSK mechanized unit moving at 6.10 on the 5th.
24 A. That's correct, sir.
25 Q. If we can go to CanBat -- that's the Canadian Battalion, not the
1 Kenyan Battalion. If we can go one page back, please.
2 This is some entries, sir, from the Canadian Battalion. Some of
3 them are clearer than others, frankly, and certainly if can you move at
4 0530 on August the 5th. You see: "Vehicles moving toward the general
5 direction of Knin."
6 If we move down on that page, you can see another reference of
7 vehicles moving towards Knin. And, likewise, some on the next page.
8 Were you made aware during the day on the 5th that the ARSK was
9 moving units and it looked like from the reporting that they were headed
10 towards Knin?
11 A. I was made aware there was ARSK movements. I was not made aware
12 they were formed units or whether they were stragglers. I have not seen
13 this report, that does mean the headquarters received it. I can't
14 confirm that we actually received it.
15 Q. I'm sorry. You can't confirm that you actually received it?
16 A. Actually received this report. Our communications were iffy, to
17 say the best, for the 4th and 5th of August. But I have not seen this
18 report, sir.
19 Q. Obviously you have no reason to doubt the accuracy of what the
20 Canadian Battalion is reporting.
21 A. I have no way nor no reason to doubt their accuracy, sir.
22 Q. Now, based on what you told us or what we discussed, obviously
23 communication capabilities had not been knocked out by the HV. Isn't
24 that right?
25 A. Whose communications facilities are you referring to, sir? The
1 Krajina Serbs?
2 Q. The Krajina Serbs.
3 A. I have no way of confirming that but it would appear there was
4 still some functioning communications. The vehicles were still moving.
5 Q. And you at least observed ARSK movements, although you didn't
6 know where they were going, in Knin. Correct?
7 A. That's right, sir.
8 Q. And, sir, as a military commander, do you recall when we
9 discussed this matter on the 16th of August of last year that you noted
10 on the 5th when asked why you assessed that they would shell on the
11 morning of the 5th, that you would have shelled Knin too. Because if
12 there was any ARSK resistance, you might want to have them change their
13 mind about resistance?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. So as you sit here, sir, if you were in the position of
16 General Gotovina, you would have shelled Knin also on the morning of the
18 A. I'm not sure what reports General Gotovina would have had back
19 from his forces in contact from the results of his artillery and the
20 attack. But he may not have had a full picture either, yes, sir.
21 Q. But the answer to that question is, you would have shelled too?
22 A. I cannot speak for what General Gotovina knew of the actual
23 situation on the ground, sir.
24 Q. I'm speaking for you, Colonel?
25 A. I, as an intelligence officer, am not in a command position, sir.
1 I'm an advisor to the commander. I don't wish to be evasive and I'm not
2 intending to do so. I'm just saying I don't know what General Gotovina
3 had knowledge-wise of the situation in Knin that day, sir.
4 Q. Colonel, when you and I discussed this on the 16th of August last
5 year, did you or did not tell me that you would have shelled Knin on the
6 morning of the 5th as well?
7 A. Depending upon the picture I had, that's right, sir, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
9 MR. KEHOE: I don't know if you'd want to take a break now,
10 Judge, I know --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'd like to take a break. Could you tell us
12 how much more time you'd need.
13 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, can I just gather myself here just a bit
14 and give you an accurate assessment after the break?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you already could give it a try so that we
16 can think it over as well.
17 MR. KEHOE: I understand, sir.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We use our break as well to consider whether we
19 would grant what you think you would need.
20 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I think I can finish by 7.00 if the
21 break is not too long.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider. Could I hear from the other parties
23 how much time they would need.
24 Mr. Kay.
25 MR. KAY: We have no questions. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I've got about a half an hour, at
3 the most.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Yes, we'll have a break, not too short. Mr. Kehoe, by the way,
6 there is one other issue which I'd like to raise. You have shown
7 1D55-0004 to the witness which was a picture and then you'd shown it to
8 the witness. It was on the screen. It was admitted as D814. And of
9 course at that moment I had not verified that there was a second page
10 attached to that --
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- which gives different information, et cetera, and
13 apparently, by chance, you called D814 at a later stage.
14 MR. KEHOE: I thought it was two pages. I thought it was two
15 separate documents as opposed to one document. That was my mistake.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we're trying to do our utmost best to
17 keep a close eye on what comes in as evidence and what not. If you just
18 show one thing to a witness and then we're not going as a routine
19 checking whether there's anything hidden behind this one page, so would
20 you please be very precise on that.
21 We'll have a break and resume at a quarter past 6.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 5.55 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you have until 7.00.
25 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
1 Q. Colonel, let me turn your attention to 65 ter 4077 -- excuse me,
3 If we can go to the first page. This is an UNCRO headquarters
5 assessment of the attitude and likely reasons of the defeat of the ARSK.
6 A. I see that, sir.
7 Q. Number 2, it says: "Resistance offered by ARSK has been in most
8 case a frontal blocking action that has proved successful to some extent
9 in Sector North but rapidly overwhelmed in Sector South."
10 Now when you were going back and doing this assessment,
11 Sector North didn't fall to the HV until Knin fell. Is that not correct?
12 A. That's correct. But I'd just like to clarify which assessment
13 are you referring to, sir. My after the fact assessment? This
14 assessment is not mine.
15 Q. I understand. I'm just talking about your after the fact
16 assessment --
17 A. Understood, sir. Thank you. Yeah.
18 Q. If we can turn to the next page. Paragraph 4 for the most part:
19 "The rapid collapse of the ARSK after the initial breakthrough can be
20 explained as follows: 41, poor leadership at intermediate levels has
21 been observed. 42, absence of a counterattack reserve (armour has been
22 observed only on the first echelon. 43: Lack of theatre, C 3 I,
23 capacities and leaders were not trained for coordinated theatre-level
24 ops; 44, logistic insufficiencies. 45, rapid demoralization of troops.
25 I want to turn your attention back to 43, total lack of theatre,
1 C 3 I. Now, C 3 I is the military short for command, control,
2 communication, and intelligence. Isn't that right?
3 A. That's correct, sir.
4 Q. And one of the reasons why the ARSK fell so quickly, and now I'm
5 talking about your after the fact assessment, fell so quickly was because
6 their communication capabilities from Knin were destroyed on the 4th and
7 the 5th. Isn't that right?
8 A. As far as I can recall, yes, sir.
9 Q. Now, I want to change subjects. I'm just trying to get through
10 this, Colonel, and I trust I won't go through it too quickly for you, and
11 if I do, please stop me.
12 A. I will, and I thank you, sir.
13 Q. I want to turn to the actual mortar situation on the 5th that you
14 talked about. And we talked about the movement of a mechanized unit to
15 Bulina Strana in the previous documents, and if you can turn to 744,
16 P744, I'm sorry. It should be the last tab in your book.
17 A. Which page, sir?
18 Q. It's on the fifth -- on 1500, sir, of P744.
19 A. Right, I have that.
20 Q. Should be the fourth page in. It notes that: "ARSK soldiers of
21 unknown strength were seen occupying defensive positions in the general
22 area of Strmica."
23 This particular defensive position, do you know when the ARSK
24 took up this defensive position?
25 A. I do not, sir. This reporting is from our Kenyan Battalion which
1 had a border check-point in Strmica. I don't have any further
2 information, sir.
3 Q. As I said, we talked about Bulina Strana and we have this insert
4 about the defensive positions in and around Strmica. How many other
5 defensive positions, to your knowledge, did the ARSK set up in and around
6 Knin on the 5th of August?
7 A. None others to my knowledge. I was surprised they did not set up
8 one to block crossing across the bridge into Knin, but none other to my
9 knowledge, sir.
10 Q. Not to your knowledge?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. I guess that you -- and as we talked about before, you were
13 unaware of the Bulina Strana situation?
14 A. That's correct, sir. I was unaware of that situation.
15 Q. Well, as we look -- given what we've talked about the mortar
16 attack shell that landed near the base on the 9th of August, you don't
17 know who fired that, do you?
18 A. Sorry, sir. Which mortar attack are you referring to?
19 Q. I'm talking to the mortars that killed the individuals at the
21 A. Oh, I'm sorry. You're talking about on the 5th of August.
22 Q. On the 5th of August.
23 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry, I was thinking the 9th of
24 August I was gone. I don't know who fired that, sir, you're correct.
25 Q. Now, if we could just go through some of the people and if we
1 could pull up P220 again, which is the UNMO document -- excuse me, the
2 UNCIVPOL report that Mr. Russo discussed with you.
3 Now, if we can start with the last person first, number 6, the
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. That was the individual who obviously had been dead for some time
7 and rigor mortis had set in?
8 A. I don't know if rigor mortis had set in, but the blood was
9 certainly not fresh blood. It was more burgundy in colour as opposed to
11 Q. And did you conclude, based on that, that that body had been
12 brought there?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. So that body, you deduced, was killed prior to this mortar
16 A. I'm not a forensic expert, sir, but that's what I deduced, yes.
17 Q. Now the first person that you talk about on this is
18 Ljubomir Djapic?
19 A. Yes, sir. Ljubomir Djapic.
20 Q. He is the individual that you took out of -- whose ID you took
21 out, right?
22 A. That's correct, sir.
23 Q. Now when you came on the scene with Captain Berikoff and others,
24 Mr. Djapic was dead, right?
25 A. That's correct, sir.
1 Q. Let me turn you to -- if I may. 1D55-0019. Excuse me,
2 1D55-0009. My apology, 009.
3 Colonel, this is the -- I will tell you based on the records that
4 are currently in evidence that this is the autopsy report for Mr. Djapic.
5 And you can look at that but we can scroll down and the determination of
6 the cause of death is a gunshot wound to the head?
7 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time we will offer into evidence
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
10 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, we have no objection. I believe this
11 may one of the documents which has been submitted by the Prosecution on
12 the killings bar table motion, but, of course, we have no objection to
13 the submission of this document. Just want to keep that in mind for
14 further indication on those exhibits.
15 MR. KEHOE: At the risk of duplication, Judge, we can --
16 JUDGE ORIE: It is one page that --
17 MR. KEHOE: -- I can confer with counsel.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Let's not -- it is now tendered by you.
19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore, there's no objection.
21 Madam Registrar, that would be.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit D817, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, may I then take it that you will remove
24 it from your bar table motion.
25 MR. RUSSO: We will do so, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Colonel, so if this individual was killed from a gunshot wound
4 he, likewise, was dead prior to the mortar landing in the morning of the
5 5th of August?
6 A. If autopsy says that, sir, I have no reason to doubt that.
7 Q. The other individual that you mentioned to us, which was the
8 number 2. Now number 2 on -- on -- if we can go back to P220.
9 So just looking at this list, again, with one and six being
10 killed prior to the mortar attack. Number two is the individual who came
11 to the UN Sector South gate and attempted to get in. Is that right?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. No.
14 A. No, that's not correct.
15 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... been informed that the Prosecution
16 has led evidence in that regard, that the individual who has -- came to
17 the gate and was turned away was killed in this mortar attack?
18 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm going to object to the
19 form of that question. If he wants to point to the particular witness
20 who said it and address him way. I'm not sure what the purpose of asking
21 him if he is aware --
22 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
23 MR. RUSSO: -- of what the Prosecution has led.
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... led as evidence --
25 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- I think that that's -- we're not -- rephrase your
3 MR. KEHOE: I will take Mr. Russo's suggestion again and turn the
4 Chamber's attention to Captain Berikoff's testimony at page 755, line 9,
5 by Mr. Russo.
6 "Question: There it indicates that a scared ARSK soldier came to
7 the gate," it says of the UNHCR, but UNHCR compound, "and that he was
8 turned away."
9 First of all, can you tell the Court whether you were the one who
10 turned him away?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Excuse me?
13 A. I was the one who turned this young man away. I was the one who
14 spoke to him.
15 Q. If I may, can I just finish Captain Berikoff's --
16 A. Certainly.
17 Q. My question -- I was reading when I said: "First -- first of
18 all, can you tell the Court whether you were the one who turned him
19 away?" And that's a question by Mr. Russo to Captain Berikoff.
20 A. I apologise. I thought you were directing the question to me,
21 Mr. Kehoe.
22 Q. Answer by Captain Berikoff: "Yes. I was the one who turned him
24 Sounds familiar. "He came to the gate along with a number of
25 other refugees, but because he was in uniform and he was carrying a
1 weapon, we were ordered by our senior management that we were not allowed
2 to let combatants into the compound so I turned him away at that time."
3 Question by Mr. Russo: "Thank you. And was this soldier that
4 you turned away, one of the soldiers killed at the mortar blast at the
5 intersection? "
6 Answer: "Yes, he was."
7 Now, as you sit here, Colonel, do you disagree with the
8 assessment of the situation given by Captain Berikoff?
9 A. With regards to this particular individual, yes, I do.
10 Q. Now, how many soldiers were in the six people who were killed?
11 A. Of the six that were killed, two were in uniform.
12 Q. Let me turn your attention, Chamber to Captain Berikoff, page
13 7588, line 9. And looking at this question and looking -- by Mr. Russo
14 looking at the second entry for 930 Bravo, it indicates that of the six
15 dead at the intersection where the mortar blast occurred, four were
16 civilians and two were ARSK soldiers. However, I believe your other
17 references indicate that it was the other way around, four soldiers and
18 two civilians. Is that right?"
19 "Answer: That's correct. It was in fact four soldiers and two
21 Now, Colonel, do you disagree with Mr. Berikoff's assessment of
22 that situation?
23 A. I disagree with his assessment. There were two individuals in
24 uniform and four civilians. I can't explain for the discrepancy.
25 Q. You noted for us that you -- during the course of your testimony
1 you saw this individual that had been shot in the back of the head?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Do you recall you and I discussing that on the 16th of August of
4 last year?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And did you tell me at that time that that individual did not
7 appear that he was executed. He did have an AK-47.
8 A. He had an AK-47 and there was a gunshot to the back of the head.
9 I don't know if he was executed, sir.
10 Q. My question to you is: Did you tell me back on the 16th that you
11 had concluded that you did not think he was executed?
12 A. I don't recall, sir. If you say I did, I have no reason to doubt
14 Q. Now, a couple of other questions briefly, sir, as we move through
16 Now, with the situation of warlords that you were asked on direct
17 examination, were you -- were you made aware during the course of your
18 intelligence gathering of any criminal elements in the Krajina after
19 Operation Storm?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. None?
22 A. None.
23 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you a report, which is P805. And I would
24 like to show you this report. This is -- P805, sir, is a report an ECMM
25 report from the 7th of August, 1995. If I can turn to the second page
1 towards the bottom of this page 2. And I recognise, Colonel, that you
2 may have seen this document before.
3 A. I have not seen this document before, sir.
4 Q. I just want to -- there is a piece of information here that I'd
5 just like to get to your attention.
6 On the B -- and this is on the subject of looting. "In the Knin
7 --" 5 b at the bottom: "In the Knin area, it seems as if random looting
8 and destruction of houses and property is about to reach a degree where
9 it will get even more difficult to restart normal life. Comment: It is
10 it a very unlikely that this is a deliberate policy of the authorities.
11 It is more likely that as the front line more disciplined troops are
12 moving out, the second line soldiers are less disciplined and are more
13 ready to grab what they can."
14 Now, my first question is: During the course of my conversation
15 with you in August of last year, you stated at that time that the looting
16 that you observed did not appear to be organised. Isn't that right?
17 A. That's correct, sir.
18 Q. And you, likewise, said that most of this looting was done by
19 Home Guards?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And that some of the looters had patches, some were wearing BDUs
22 or fatigues, is that right, BDUs?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Some had no patches, some had fatigues on and some did not?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. So it was a mixture of people with uniforms, out of uniforms,
2 without patches, isn't that right?
3 A. That's right, sir. The bulk were in uniform but there some were
4 without, yes.
5 Q. And based on that all, you concluded that this looting was not
7 A. It did not appear to me, from what I saw, that it was organised
8 or sanctioned looting, sir.
9 Q. Now, you noted in 744 at 1445 on the August 7th. And let me --
10 P744, I think that is tab 4 in your book.
11 At 1445, you note that the -- lots of troops getting ready to
13 Do you see that, sir?
14 A. No, I'm still trying to find that, sir. I'm at tab 4. That's
15 the supplemental --
16 Q. I apologise. I'm looking for your Sector South chronology?
17 A. Oh, okay.
18 MR. RUSSO: Very last tab.
19 MR. KEHOE: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Russo. Page 6 of
21 A. I have it now, sir.
22 Q. At the insert for 1445. You note that a lot of soldiers and
23 trucks getting ready to leave.
24 Do you see that? At 1445?
25 A. No, I'm still trying to find --
1 Q. If you look on the screen that might be of help. The second one
2 from the top on the screen, Colonel.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Do you see that, sir?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. And you also -- if we scroll down to the next page -- actually
7 the bottom of this page for August the 10th. On August the 10th, you
8 note that there's still fighting in the area of Strmica?
9 A. That's the reporting we had, yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay and, likewise, go to the next page. You have fighting on
11 the 13th, the 14th.
12 So throughout that period of time, your reporting was that the --
13 there was still serious fighting going on between the HV and the ARSK, or
14 certainly Serb forces, immediately following Operation Storm. Isn't that
16 A. There was still some fighting going on, sir. I'm not sure if I
17 would categorise it as serious. The reporting was -- there were gaps in
18 reporting. But, yes, there was still fighting going on.
19 Q. Let's go to D728. Page 11 of D728.
20 If we can go to the next page, please.
21 Now, your reporting reflect, Colonel, that -- if you see the box
22 in the top, a confrontation line being reset at the conclusion of Storm
23 that looked like this?
24 A. As you've mentioned before, I have not seen this slide show
25 before but I would have to say that looks fairly accurate.
1 Q. And if we go to the next page.
2 Did your reporting also reflect these counter-strikes by the Serb
3 forces in and around the 12th?
4 I can show you the next slide as well.
5 MR. KEHOE: If we can go to the next slide, please.
6 Q. Which shows the counterattack by the forces of the Split Military
8 Now, Colonel, after the -- Operation Storm ended, and the
9 confrontation line moved up to the area that we discussed previously, the
10 HV went into a mode of setting out an active defence didn't they?
11 A. I would assess that that's what they did, yes.
12 Q. And explain to the Chamber what an active defence is?
13 A. An active defence, in my understanding, would be they were
14 respond if attacked and defend in the positions they were in.
15 Q. Okay. Now based on that, do you also try to probe various areas
16 to get a better defensive position while also looking and trying to plan
17 where you can actually have an offensive?
18 A. Yes. In the conduct of a campaign would you probe the defences
19 whether it be by reconnaissance or actively fighting for information.
20 Doctrinally, that's what you would do, yes.
21 Q. Now, during this period of active defence, if you're planning
22 a -- a next offensive, what is a commander such as General Gotovina, what
23 is he doing during this period of time to control the active defence and
24 also plan the next offensive operation?
25 A. If I was a commander in that position, I would make sure that my
1 main supply routes up to the new defence line would be secure and I would
2 make sure there was no resistance in my rear lines.
3 Q. And how about logistics, sir? What would you do logically in
4 order to prepare or to take care of not only your active defence but also
5 to prepare for the next offensive?
6 A. I would conduct resupply if it was my decision. I am sure he
7 would do the same.
8 Q. Based on your intelligence, the active defence was set up almost
9 immediately after Operation Storm. Isn't that right?
10 A. I can't confirm that, when exactly it was established.
11 Q. Okay. Let me show you D281.
12 This is an order for active defence signed by General Gotovina as
13 of the 9th of August, 1995. If we can go to the next page.
14 Without going into the specifics of the order, because obviously
15 we don't have that kind of time, was this consistent with what
16 information you were receiving i.e., that General Gotovina was ordering
17 his troops into an active defence with the idea of planning for
18 subsequent offensives?
19 A. As you mentioned, I have not seen the document before. I would
20 assess and our assessment at that time was that this is something that
21 General Gotovina would do, establish gains he had made to get ready for
22 the next part of the campaign.
23 Q. Now let us go back to D728, if we may. And if we can go to page
24 14. Actually, 15. 15, if we may. One more, please. I must have
25 counted incorrectly.
1 Now, based on your intelligence gathering, Colonel, the next step
2 was Operation Mistral. Is that right?
3 A. We were not aware at the time of the name of the operation. But
4 this slide I have not seen before and it looks very much like the
5 Dayton Peace Accord, but I know it is it not.
6 Q. Let me turn to the next page then. It is reminiscent of that,
7 isn't it?
8 Now, you recall this operation, even if you don't recall the name
9 of the offensive, going into Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. I recall this offensive, yes, sir.
11 Q. Now, Colonel, you assessed at that time that this was an
12 extensive operation that took a tremendous amount of planning as well as
13 logistical support; isn't that right?
14 A. Planning, logistical support and coordination between the HV and
15 HVO, yes, sir.
16 Q. You're a career officer, Colonel. I mean, would you give us an
17 idea of the time and energy involved in such an endeavour planning such
18 an endeavour?
19 A. Planning such an endeavour involving different forces
20 geographically disparate in the terrain such as the HV and HVO were
21 fighting would certainly take a number of weeks and even that would be
23 Q. If you put that in conjunction with putting an active defence in
24 place, there is an significant amount of activity on the plate of a
25 commander to complete all these tasks, isn't there?
1 A. You're absolutely right, sir, there is.
2 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, one moment, Your Honour.
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. As we move through the fall and we need not go through the rest
6 of the slides, your assessment was that though September, October, into
7 the end of these operations, General Gotovina was the commander of the HV
8 forces and HVO forces operating in conjunction with the army of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina throughout all this, wasn't he?
10 A. That was our assessment, sir, but we didn't have clarification
11 that that was a fact.
12 Q. If I can just put up on the screen 65 ter 3327. This is just a
13 65 ter document, General Gotovina requesting General Cermak not to send
14 internationals into the zone until further notice.
15 Colonel, I know you haven't seen this document before --
16 MR. KEHOE: -- but we will offer this document into evidence at
17 this time.
18 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D818, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D818 is admitted into evidence.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. KEHOE: Lastly, Judge, I failed to offer into evidence 65 ter
24 4022, which is the UNCRO sitrep of the 7th of August, 1995, that I
25 discussed with the Colonel previously and I would offer that at this
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
3 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D819, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D819 is admitted into evidence.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Colonel, I have no further questions for you. I thank you for
9 your time.
10 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I have no further questions of this
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
13 Before we continue, you asked us to admit into evidence D817, the
14 autopsy report. Now, it seems that it's not just an autopsy report but
15 it's more than that. It is a seven-page document which is, to some
16 extent not translated.
17 MR. KEHOE: It is -- it is the file on Mr. Djapic. The first
18 three pages are translated. The next two pages merely are the numbers --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I would say the first three pages are originally in
20 English. I do not see any translation into B/C/S, as a matter of fact.
21 And then the following pages are not in English.
22 MR. KEHOE: They are information that just identifies this
23 individual as this KN 01432 B, to which is cross-referenced at the
24 beginning, when the -- when the medical examiner did the autopsy, they
25 operated not on identities but simple on numbers and the backup documents
1 are in there from the OTP's file simply to support that view.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although it seems that not much explanation
3 has been given as to how the remains were identified as belonging to Mr.
4 Djapic. It says, at least from what I can -- it's a long list where they
5 give the numbers and then say, this is A, this is B, this is C, and on
6 what basis is unclear.
7 Finally, you have put to the witness that the autopsy report says
8 that he -- I think you said he died before the mortar attack or --
9 MR. KEHOE: It's a gunshot wound to the head.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KEHOE: I can clarify that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, I have looked at -- it's a -- yes. Well, that
13 is the -- that's part of what has been established and it is the
14 conclusion of the one who had identify what among part of the head
15 missing, a lot of bones of the head missing, all kind of other things
16 that he concluded that this was the cause of death where it is further
17 explained that the findings are not inconsistent with, for example, a
18 head injury or shot. At least it is -- you summarized it very briefly by
19 saying that.
20 MR. KEHOE: I did and, with all due respect to the Colonel not
21 being a forensic examiner, I attempted to do that, Judge, simply because
22 the expert comes to a particular conclusion that there were other wounds
23 but that the cause of death was a wound -- a gunshot to the cranium or to
24 the head that was antemortem, prior to his death.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now there exactly I was a bit concerned that
1 your lack of expertise -- isn't it true that antemortem or post-mortem
2 or, as it says, three categories, antemortem, post-mortem ought not to be
3 defined -- means whether the damage to the remains was caused after the
4 death, post-mortem, or before the death which means that it could be the
5 reason of the death so, Mr. Kehoe, your explanation of what antemortem
6 and post-mortem in this context means might need some further study.
7 MR. KEHOE: I do not profess to be a forensic pathologist
8 [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... nevertheless, you make
10 statements on that and I was a bit afraid that putting to this witness
11 that the cause -- that the cause of death was from before, I -- as a
12 matter of fact, I could not exclude for the possibility that you
13 misinterpreted where it says antemortem, because antemortem could well be
14 cause of death.
15 MR. KEHOE: Antemortem -- the way the context of these reports
16 are written is whether or not these wounds to the cranium took place
17 prior to death or after death. Now that comes from --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Or causing death.
19 MR. KEHOE: No, no. They're two different issues for a forensic
20 pathologist. Off times you will see a forensic pathologist talk about a
21 wound and based on the wound and lividity and a variety of other issues,
22 they can make a determination whether or not this bruising or this wound
23 was caused after the person was dead or before. Now this particular
24 forensic pathologist, which is the one that the OTP hired, came to the
25 conclusion that the cause of death, notwithstanding other injuries, was
1 the gunshot to the head, which leads to the next step which I asked the
2 Colonel. This individual, and certainly the one that was old, in all
3 likelihood were dead prior to the mortar actually hitting.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's a couple of steps.
5 MR. KEHOE: Of course. Of course, Judge.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not further discuss the matter. But, of
7 course, I started by saying that we get an autopsy report. There's a
8 whole file, part of it not translated, where of course the Chamber would
9 like to always be informed. We had before the break that you said, Well,
10 one picture, another one was attached. Here it is not just the autopsy
11 report but it's more. It's a seven-page document partly not translated
12 and it is presented to us -- and of course it is of less concern that it
13 is presented to the witness because you focus his attention to only the
14 portion shown to him but of course, for the Chamber, the whole of the
15 document, everything is in evidence, and therefore, I would have
16 appreciated if you would have said that you -- that you tendered the
17 whole file related to the autopsy.
18 MR. KEHOE: I will correct the problem.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it's three minutes to 7.00. I don't
20 think, Mr. Kuzmanovic, that it makes any sense to start your
21 cross-examination at this moment.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No, three minutes won't do it, Your Honour. I
23 do have probably less than half an hour, but I would not want to impose
24 on anyone at this moment.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Mr. Williams, we'd like to see you back tomorrow. We start
2 tomorrow at 9.00 in this same courtroom. I would like to instruct you
3 that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony, either the
4 testimony you have given already today, or the testimony you most likely
5 will give tomorrow.
6 Therefore, we adjourn and we resume tomorrow, 26th September,
7 9.00, Courtroom I.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of
10 September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.