1 Friday, 10 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.
7 [French on English Channel]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-06-90-T, The Prosecutor
10 versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I received French translation on channel 4.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The registrar has told us that this was -- this is
14 case number IT-06-90-T, The Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
15 Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to continue your examination of
16 Mr. Simic?
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, yes, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I would then like to remind Mr. Simic that, Mr.
19 Simic, you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the
20 beginning of the testimony that is that you'll speak the truth, the whole
21 truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 Ms. Mahindaratne.
23 WITNESS: DAMIR SIMIC [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President if I could just inform Court the
2 redacted documents, P967 and 968, MFI
3 regard to the translations of P972, the cover page has been uploaded and
4 yesterday I made a mistake when I referred to chapter 7. There is no
5 chapter 7. It was chapter 15 and chapter 16. Both are translated and on
6 e-court. But chapter 13 is not there, Mr. President. That is missing
7 and it's still -- we are awaiting the translation to be uploaded. The
8 translation is not complete yet. It will be done before the close of
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So yesterday I think you said 17, I didn't
11 hear 7.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: 17, Mr. President. I just mentioned 17. When
13 I mentioned chapter 1, 12, 13, 15, and it should have been 16, not 17.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now that's clear. Thank you. 13 still
15 waiting for translation being uploaded.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Mr. Simic, good afternoon.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Madam Registrar [sic], may I call document
20 995, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: When we're waiting, yesterday you called
22 Madam Registrar Mr. Registrar. Now it is again Mr. Registrar.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry. I didn't look up.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, that's no problem.
25 Q. Mr. Simic, I appreciate this is not a document issued by you. It
1 is report on arrested members of enemy formations paramilitia and other
2 persons handed over to MUP dated 7th August, 1995, submitted to the
3 commander of the 72 Military Police Battalion by senior lieutenant
4 Ante Renic I'd like to you take a look at paragraph 2.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And Mr. Registrar if we could go to page 2 of
6 the English version.
7 Q. There, Mr. Simic, it is reported that on 6 August 1995, the
8 Sibenik 4th military police company workers handed over five members of
9 enemy formations and 33 Serb civilians to the Sibenik PU collection
11 Now, before I ask you the relevant question with regard to this
12 document, I'm going to show you another document so that we save time.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, could you please call up -- can
14 I have document number 1002, please.
15 Before that, Mr. President so that I save time, can this document
16 be admitted into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, no questions yet but then it equals
18 tendering from the bar table.
19 Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P977.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P977 is admitted into evidence.
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
24 Q. And I think we have another document now, Mr. Simic, that is
25 report sent to Major Juric personally dated 7 August 1995, and it's a
1 report on information with regard to the implementation of military
2 police tasks pursuant to the OVP commander's order and there's a
3 reference given there.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar if we can move to the next page
5 of the English version.
6 Q. Mr. Simic, if you could look at paragraph numbered five. It is
7 reported that "37 RH were captured including five uniformed members of
8 the enemy army and 33 civilians, among whom there are 12 women and 21 men
9 (all elderly). All the above persons were captured around 1830 hours on
10 6th August by HV members and brought to the Sibenik military police base.
11 Immediately after their details were recorded, they were escorted to the
12 Baldekin centre in Sibenik."
13 Now --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Translation is now being finished. May I take it
15 that 37 is a slip of the tongue and should be 38.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: You mean the civilians, Mr. President? Oh,
17 yeah, 38. It should be 38. I said 38, probably it got recorded as 37.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I -- yes. I heard 37, and it was transcribed as 37.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Now my question to you is, Mr. Simic, why was civilians being
22 captured by the HV and taken to collection centres? Yes. Mr. Simic, I'm
23 asking you the question.
24 A. Not aware of that. I don't know.
25 Q. Mr. Simic --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could we first try to find out
2 what RH stands for.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
4 Q. Mr. Simic, is it possible for you to explain what that
5 abbreviation is, RH, in -- mentioned in paragraph -- paragraph 5? Just
6 after the number 38. In the B/C/S version there is some text and then
7 "38 RH and OD," something are you able to tell Court as at the what that
9 A. I can see that in the document, 38 RH, but I don't know what that
10 acronym stands for. It's not familiar to me.
11 Q. Now, this paragraph, this information relates to activity of the
12 Sibenik military police 4th Company, of which you were a senior officer.
13 So are you able to tell Court as to why civilians were being captured
14 according to -- it is reported here, and taken to collection centres.
15 What was the reason?
16 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. I can only assume that the
17 intention was to protect them. But I don't know, I'm not sure.
18 Q. Did you as a member of the military police have -- did you
19 receive any instructions as to how to deal with civilians?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Thank you for that.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I move this document into
23 evidence, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Since there appear to be no objections.
25 Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P978.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P978 is admitted into evidence.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document 1744,
5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I may, just for the record, note my
6 position is preserved in the future, I believe the last question and
7 answer were vague in terms of what was meant by that.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
9 Q. Mr. Simic, this is a report on activities undertaken by the
10 military crime police for 12th August 1995
11 dated 12 August.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if you could, Mr. Registrar, move to page
13 2 of both the B/C/S and the English version.
14 Q. If you could look at the report relating to the Sibenik Company,
15 in the last paragraph of that particular section, it's reported in this
16 manner: "There are still only five persons at the reception centre for
17 civilians, while a total of 80 of them have been driven to a new
18 reception centre on the island of Obonjan
19 also keeps changing constantly, given that new arrivals are coming in all
20 the time and persons are being released from the centre."
21 Now, are you able to offer an explanation to the Trial Chamber as
22 to why civilians were being treated as prisoners, which is what is
23 reported here, and this is a report relating to your military police
25 A. This is the document I've just seen now. I am not familiar with
1 it from before. I don't know who the author of the document is, and I
2 don't know why it has been written that way.
3 Q. Let me show who the author of the document is.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, could we move to page 4 of the
5 English version and page 2 -- 3 of the --
6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I could get a clarification from
7 Ms. Mahindaratne she is saying these are civilians at the centre, and I'm
8 not finding that in the text. If she could --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first for one second finish what we're doing.
10 That is, to identify who is the author and then go back to the matter.
11 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Because otherwise we're moving from one page to
13 another without getting answers.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
16 Q. Do you know the author of this document? Who is this person,
17 Ante -- it says department chief as Ante Glavan, senior lieutenant. Do
18 you know that person?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you dealt with that person, spoken with that person,
21 received instructions from him?
22 A. No, not from him. He is a member of the military police
24 Q. When it says department chief, what exactly was his role?
25 A. I don't know if he was the commander or the head of the MP
1 department up at the MP administration. He definitely worked the MP
2 administration and I could not have gotten in touch with him without my
3 superior or, rather, without going through my superior, Boris Milas.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Simic, I now you were attached to the crime military
5 police department?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, I allowed you to identify the
7 person who's the author and then to deal with the matter raised by
8 Mr. Misetic.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Sorry, Mr. President. I just tried to read --
10 in fact Mr. Misetic wanted to know where I got the word civilian it is
11 recorded here there are still only five persons at the reception centre
12 for civilians while a total of 80 of them have been driven to a new
13 reception centre on the island of Obonjan
14 also keeps changing --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, Ms. Mahindaratne is reading the
17 MR. MISETIC: Okay. Well --
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It says it was a centre for civilians --
19 MR. MISETIC: This is the exceptions, assumptions, things like
20 that, that is put the question. The second point is that apparently I
21 have when the list was initially closed to us have one translation, and
22 apparently there is now a second translation of it in e-court. So there
23 must have been a new English translation uploaded into e-court of that
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Whenever we upload revised translations, the
1 parties with informed Mr. President. An e-mail sent from trial support.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I would like it know what the new translation says.
3 That is it more of interest to me at this moment. There is an new
5 MR. MISETIC: Yes, but nevertheless even with the new
6 translation, Your Honour, I would ask that assumptions not be in posing
7 the question that she reads the text as it is written.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's what I did Mr. President. I did it
9 exactly verbatim.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's look at that. We can check that on the
12 MR. MISETIC: And also Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have a look at one second.
14 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would also make an objection at this
15 point even to the translation on the screen with respect to the second
16 sentence because although it is in slashes, of prisoners. That doesn't
17 appear in the original.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The slashes caught my attention as well,
19 Ms. Mahindaratne. And that there's not in the original. Could you
20 explain -- have you given it some thought on why -- perhaps not an
21 important word like the number of prisoners -- why that appears in
22 slashes and what that means in relation to the original.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I presume, Mr. President generally the slashes
24 come when the interpreters are not certain of a translation but --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you seek any confirmation of -- because if the
1 interpreters are not certain we should clarify the issue.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President but what I have the
3 clarification I had at the OTP is that it does -- it is not incorrect the
4 term the prisoners. Now, if native speaker says --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's check that. I am aware that I'm going a
6 bit beyond what I should do. We see that in English the words the number
7 and then between slashes of prisoners appear. If I would start reading
8 the original text and it should be interpreted, if someone could read it.
9 Because my pronunciation will be wrong.
10 MR. MISETIC: I would be happy to, Your Honour. It's the last
11 sentence in section 2. It is [interpretation]: "Here, too, the number
12 keeps constantly changing, in view of a continued arrival of new comers
13 and of the persons from the centre being released."
14 [In English] So, Your Honour, my objection is the word prisoners
15 didn't appear in the text anywhere, so I don't know it would be inserted
16 in slashes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That remains an issue. Ms. Mahindaratne, we have
18 now heard how it was interpreted. Could you please submit this document
19 for verification of the translation, especially of the portion between
20 the dashes.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's being done right now, Mr. President.
22 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, let's me also add that -- apparently
23 I'm now told that this translation was disclosed to us last night. I'm
24 sorry. October 6th, I apologise. But the previous translation had the
25 words -- it says even on this location the number of prisoners keeps
1 changing -- and the "of prisoners" isn't even in slashes in the first
2 one, so that would suggest to me that --
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's the more reason to have the translation being
4 verified specifically of this sentence, Ms. Mahindaratne. We have now --
5 the line was read to us. It was translated. And I do understand that
6 the word "prisoner" as such does not appear in this sentence.
7 Then the other issue was civilians.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That was Mr. President from the first line --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I see that.
10 Mr. Misetic, what I see there, that it's mentioned, reception
11 centre for civilians. That's how it reads. While a total of 80 of them,
12 of them, I have difficulties to understand it to refer to five persons,
13 because 80 out of five is not possible. Neither would I consider that
14 "of them" would relate to reception centres. So, therefore, I am
15 inclined to understand total of 80 of them to refer to civilians. I'm
16 just giving you -- for the time being, I understand.
17 MR. MISETIC: Well, let me --
18 JUDGE ORIE: English translation.
19 MR. MISETIC: Let me just advise the Chamber that in the prior
20 translation, it was translated "I believe more accurately that there are
21 still only five persons at the civilian collection centre. A total of 80
22 persons have been transferred to a new collection centre on the island of
24 Now --
25 JUDGE ORIE: That portion of the document, the translation should
1 also be verified, Ms. Mahindaratne.
2 MR. MISETIC: I will check with Ms. Mahindaratne during the break
3 as to why a new translation was requested in the first place and then
4 we'll report back to Your Honour.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I can explain right now Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- Ms. Mahindaratne, why not give it some
7 thought, try to have everything verified and then inform the Chamber.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. But I could just inform
10 court that it wasn't a case of a new translation being requested but this
11 is the revised translation that is done with regard do all documents. It
12 is initially at a draft stage and then --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, I do believe there were good
14 reasons to replace it. What I'm interested in and I take it my
15 colleagues as well is the right translation is. That's what we care
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will do so, Mr. President.
18 For the time being, Mr. President, may I tender in a -- and a
19 number be given an MFI
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P979,
23 marked for identification.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P979 keeps this status of marked for identification
25 for the time being, until a final translation is uploaded and then we'll
1 decide on admissions.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
3 Q. Mr. Simic one last question on that. Where is Obonjan Island
4 the Island of Obonjan
5 A. In the Sibenik Archipelago among the Sibenik islands. But I'm
6 not sure when I say that.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar may I have document sorry
9 Exhibit P970, please.
10 Q. While the document is brought up Mr. Simic your testimony was
11 that you initiated the investigation into the killing incidents of
12 Varivode, Gosici, and Zrmanja pursuant to request from the Zadar county
13 prosecutor. Is that correct?
14 A. I don't think so. I was engaged only in some of the segments of
15 all that. I was just investigating the reasonable doubts that murders
16 had been committed but I did not have any knowledge of that being a fact.
17 Q. No, my question was who requested you to conduct the
18 investigation. That was my question. Who instructed you?
19 A. The military prosecutor's office in Zadar.
20 Q. And when did you commence the investigation?
21 A. When I received the order.
22 Q. When, as in now there is a note front of us dated 25th October.
23 So did you start it week before? I'm just asking for the time-frame,
24 Mr. Simic.
25 A. I wouldn't be able to remember. But if you had the complete --
1 the complete case file I'm sure you will be able to see that. If you
2 have a note of that, I'm sure that you will also have the complete case
4 Q. Now, when you were asked to cease investigations on 25th October,
5 had you been involved in the investigation or have you been -- had you
6 been conducting investigations for a while, before that? And when I say
7 "for a while," I'm talking about one or two weeks or was it a couple of
8 days before.
9 A. It's very difficult for me to say how many days. Because this
10 was not the only case I was involved in. There were other cases. But I
11 repeat, if you have the note then you also have the complete case file,
12 and I'm sure you will be able to find the exact date of when the
13 investigation began.
14 Q. No, I didn't ask for the exact date. Just approximately are you
15 able to tell how many dies were involved in the investigation?
16 A. It's very hard for me to remember. I can't remember. I'm -- I
17 may be wrong I may give you a wrong number, a wrong date and I don't want
18 to do that. I don't remember.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us approximately, was it a
20 couple of days, approximately a week, and a week could be anything
21 between five, or eight, or nine days. Give us just when possible an
22 indication of the time you had spent on the investigation.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I gave you any figure, it would
24 just be a wild guess and I don't know if that would be of any use either
25 to me or to you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Let me just take you to that paragraph
3 numbered 1 there, Mr. Simic.
4 There an a detail there, Goran Vunic, son of Ante, born on 4
5 October 1973 in Sibenik, residing in Ladevci and there are details and
6 about -- the next line there says: Together with two others as of yet
7 unidentified men, he has shot and killed Gojko Lezajic in the courtyard
8 of his house in Gosici. The neighbours have buried the body at the local
9 cemetery (statements given by) ..." and there are two names.
10 Now this is a note that you wrote. From where did you obtain
11 that information, that Goran Vunic had committed this crime in the manner
12 that you have described, in that paragraph.
13 A. From the municipal prosecutor's office in Zadar. Sava Letunica
14 and Milan Letunica provided statements in Zadar, about the case.
15 Q. And did you examine those statement yourself; did you read those
17 A. I did.
18 Q. And when you reported to Captain Mrkota on the 25th, did you
19 inform him of all these details?
20 A. Absolutely.
21 Q. And did you also inform him that there was a search warrant
22 issued by the military judge in Sibenik for you to search the premises of
23 Goran Vunic?
24 A. Whatever I did, I reported to Captain Mrkota.
25 Q. Now, was there any other military police departments other than
1 your section involved in this investigation? And I'm talking about not
2 the Ministry of Interior but military police, crime police sections,
3 involved in this investigation other than your section, to your
5 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. I don't know.
6 Q. In your section, who led the investigation?
7 A. I believe I was in charge, personally.
8 Q. Now when you informed Captain Mrkota on the 25th October that you
9 were intending to take some steps, did you make him aware that what were
10 you going to do was to search the premises of Goran Vunic?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Simic, you were within the military police crime police
13 until 2004. At any time after 25th October did you ever learn that
14 Goran Vunic had been named as a witness, or an informant, or had assisted
15 in any way in this investigation?
16 A. The date that you have just mentioned, I'm not sure about the
17 date. Would you please repeat your question, because there's wrong with
18 the date that you have just mentioned.
19 Q. No, what I mentioned was, you know, after this date, 25th
20 October 1995 after you were ordered to cease investigation by your
21 commander, did you at any time learn; or did you get any information
22 until the time you left the military police in 2004, that Goran Vunic had
23 been used in this investigation as an informant or a witness?
24 A. Whether Goran Vunic's processing continued whether there was
25 still investigation against him, I don't know. That was not my level and
1 there was no way for me to know that.
2 Q. I think that answers my question.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document Exhibit
4 P203, please.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Simic, I appreciate this is not a document that you
6 ought to be familiar with necessarily. This is report sent to the
7 minister of defence. I'd like you to look at paragraph 4 of this
8 document, where it is reported that in the liberated area of the
9 hinterlands of Zadar and Sibenik, the establishment of the civilian
10 authorities is not being carried out in a satisfactory pace. More
11 precisely: "In the liberated settlements Bribirski Mostine, Djevrske and
12 Kistanje the situation is rather chaotic. Incidents of mass burning of
13 houses plundering of property, alcohol consumption occur and the units
14 lack organisation. The reason for such a situation is the insufficient
15 engagement of the command personnel of the units."
16 Now were you ever ordered by your commander, Captain Mrkota, to
17 conduct any criminal investigations into crimes perpetrated in Kistanje?
18 A. Anything that happened in Kistanje was not subject of my
19 discussions with Captain Mrkota, nor did I receive any orders from him to
20 undertake an investigation in that matter.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think I have just one more question,
22 specifically in regard to the exclusion of the statement, as regards the
23 agreement yesterday.
24 Mr. Registrar could I have P968, please, supplementary statement.
25 MR. MISETIC: Is this a redacted supplementary statement?
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes.
2 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If you could go to next page, Mr. Registrar.
4 Q. Mr. Simic, I'd like to you look at paragraph 5 of the statement
5 in front of you, which is your supplementary statement, where you say,
6 and you are making a correction to your previous statement. You say:
7 "In paragraph 20, it should be stated that a brigade commander,
8 whose member has committed a serious crime, would send a proposal to the
9 Military District Commander to discharge the perpetrator from the
11 Now, my question to you is: Was there a requirement that the
12 member of the brigade against whom a disciplinary punishment is sought
13 should have been found guilty of the crime pursuant to a disciplinary
14 inquiry prior to the submission of the proposal for dismissal by the
15 brigade commander to the Military District Command?
16 A. Let me clarify. Pursuant to Rule number 5, grave crimes
17 committed by Croatian army soldiers, active servicemen, the proposal was
18 sent to the military prosecutor's office, and it was the military
19 prosecutor's office who dealt with their status. If a crime had indeed
20 been committed, a decision was -- waited for, and if we're talking about
21 reserve force, those people were discharged through the department for
22 defence, i.e., their status as member of the Croatian army ceased.
23 Q. So what were the circumstances in which a brigade commander would
24 submit a proposal for dismissal?
25 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, it assumes a fact not in evidence.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Well I referred him to the paragraph which is
2 already --
3 MR. MISETIC: Which we were going to lead live. It is not in
4 evidence. It was to be led live.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I must say that that confused me a bit what was to
6 be taken out and what was to be led live. But nevertheless stayed in.
7 It was your agreement and you made that distinction.
8 MR. MISETIC: Quite frankly, Your Honour, I assume she wasn't
9 going to show him the statement before leading it live but it will be
10 easier for me now to do the same on cross so ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's please rephrase your question,
12 Ms. Mahindaratne.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mr. Simic, if you could -- could you try to explain, what happens
15 for instance when a member of a brigade is found to have looted, for
16 instance, was found to have stolen some private property. What would the
17 brigade commander's duty be in such instances if such a report
18 received -- reached him?
19 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to object on vagueness grounds, Your
20 Honour; what circumstances. We've gone now to a different area that was
21 initially deposited to the witness which was after a conviction.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President I'm --
23 JUDGE ORIE: That is exactly apparently the issue we're trying to
25 If a brigade commander would receive a report without there being
1 a conviction yet, but receiving a report, that one of the members of his
2 brigade was reported as having been looting, what would that brigade
3 commander have to do?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In most cases, in almost all cases,
5 that is, we waited for the outcome of the criminal report, if the
6 criminal report was accepted, a request would be sent to the military
7 prosecutor's office if the perpetrator was an active policeman. If the
8 person was a mobilised person a person who had been mobilised through the
9 department for defence that person would have been discharged from the
10 Croatian army through the same department of defence that originally
11 mobilised him.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you said if the perpetrator was an active
13 policeman, is that what you meant to say? Or did you say a member of the
14 armed forces.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right, an active serviceman, a
16 active member of the armed forces. Both were members of the armed
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... not limited to
20 Now, how much time did it take if someone was reported of having
21 looted until such a criminal report was prepared and accepted? How much
22 time would that take?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depended largely on the case.
24 It all depended on how fast material evidence was collected.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You yesterday told us when you were asked about a
3 long list of goods that were seized, that you didn't know whether any
4 further investigation took place, in relation to that, which opens the
5 possibility that such a criminal report would never being made and would
6 be accepted. What I wanted to know from you is whether your answer comes
7 down to soon after this was reported, he would -- it would be proposed
8 that he should be discharged of his duties or whether, in fact, in most
9 of the cases, nothing happened.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see how nothing could have
11 happened. The military crime report police section, when they submitted
12 a report against an unknown perpetrator, they would also inform the
13 brigade that such a request had been filed. They wouldn't file a request
14 to the military prosecutor's office or ask for their discharge from the
15 army. That was an obligation and a duty.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is whether in all of these cases or in
17 most of these cases, finally a military crime report -- a crime report
18 would be prepared.
19 I mean, I do understand that if it would be prepared and would be
20 accepted then perhaps action would be taken. But what I'm interested in
21 to know is whether such crime reports in this period of time, in your
22 area of responsibility, were prepared, were submitted, and were accepted
23 or whether, in whatever percentage of the cases, this would not be done.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course such reports were sent to
25 the prosecutor's office, and if there were elements for their acceptance,
1 they would be accepted. And if there were no such elements then they
2 would not be accepted. But we did not have a say in that. It was up to
3 us to prepare report, with all the enclosers and attachments, the
4 material evidence and everything else that was necessary, and refer the
5 case file to the prosecutor's office.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday I asked you in relation to a rather long
7 list of approximately close to 100 items where the goods were seized,
8 whether any follow-up investigations took place at all, and you said you
9 couldn't tell us, you don't know. Today you tell us that crime reports
10 would usually be made. I would like to reconcile the answer you gave
11 yesterday with the answers you give today.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am speaking in very general
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Applying to all crimes. And
16 yesterday I spoke about the list. I don't know anything about the list.
17 I don't know whether any of the people on that list were eventually
18 prosecuted or not.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you yesterday whether when seeing such a
20 list you could tell us whether follow-up would be given if someone was
21 found to be in the possession of goods that most likely had been looted,
22 and you said you couldn't tell us whether, in such cases, that any
23 follow-up investigation would take place and you explained what the
24 problems were to do so.
25 Now, today are you suggesting, although in general terms, that
1 crime reports would be prepared in all these cases.
2 What I'd like to know is what actually happened, whether in most
3 of these cases crime reports were prepared, were submitted, and were
4 accepted; or whether in many of these cases they would just not be
5 prepared and submitted? And I'm not asking this question in general
6 terms and what should have been done, but concrete -- concretely, on what
7 was done.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring concretely to the
9 list that we saw yesterday?
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm talking about the cases as described in
11 many documents. The many cases where people were found in possession of
12 goods they were suspected to have looted.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I understand your
14 question, the military police had to report --
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- anybody they caught red-handed
17 on the way of looting or something.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there already. You said what the
19 military police had to do. What I want to know is what the military
20 police actually did, in most of these cases.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In most cases, they did act
22 pursuant to the rules and criteria that were in place.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then, under those circumstances, there must have
24 been a huge number of -- a very large number of crime reports on looting.
25 Is that your recollection?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible. Yes, it's correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's possible is -- I ask you whether it's your
3 recollection that there was a large number of crime reports concerning
4 looting. Not whether that is it possible but whether you have a clear
5 recollection that this was the case.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.
7 JUDGE ORIE: How many do you remember, approximately? In your
8 area of responsibility, in your function, well, let's say, the first ten
9 days after Operation Storm.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is very difficult to talk
11 about that. I can only speak about monthly periods because we sent our
12 reports every month. The military crime police section sent very few
13 reports, but in the area there were also the MUP and 71st military
14 police, and if you added everything up together, then the number of crime
15 reports would be rather large and especially if you take into account the
16 MUP reports.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was talking about the criminal police crime
18 reports, the criminal police -- military police crime reports, not about
19 the MUP. Could you tell us approximately how many you remember to have
20 seen in the first monthly period after Operation Storm.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday we saw the report that
22 the military crime police section of the 4th Sibenik Company submitted.
23 That is also a list of criminal reports, and that's much as I know. I
24 don't know anything else.
25 If you exclude MUP and if you exclude the 71st Battalion, then
1 that would be it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So you're telling us all the crime reports are found
3 in that document we saw yesterday, excluding MUP, excluding the 71th
5 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: When I say please proceed, I said yesterday that I
8 would keep you to a time-limit, which was already -- you have passed that
9 when I asked a few questions to the witness.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President if I could just have three
11 minutes I will wrap up.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Three minutes. You've got three minutes.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
14 Q. Now, do you recall, Mr. Simic, yesterday we saw a document which
15 you are familiar with, rules governing the structure an operation of
16 military police of the armed forces of the Republic of Croatia
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record, that was P880.
18 Q. And we looked at Article 61 there where there was a requirement
19 that the military police had to inform the senior-most officer of the
20 unit to which the perpetrator belonged, when the military police -- had
21 raised a criminal report in relation to an offence.
22 It is Article 61, Mr. Misetic.
23 Now, according to that requirement, once the military police
24 informed the senior-most officer, let us say, an example, a brigade
25 commander was informed that a member of his brigade had committed a
1 crime, what could he do? What was he expected to do?
2 A. I explained this a moment ago and I will try to have another go.
3 If the person involved was an active serviceman most often one
4 waited for the outcome of the criminal report, i.e., whether it was
5 accepted or not.
6 In that case, the proposal was sent to the military prosecutor's
7 office for breaches of discipline. If the individual was a reserve
8 serviceman who had been mobilised by the department for defence then he
9 would be dealt with through the department for defence which does not
10 exclude the possibility for a criminal report to be filed against him,
11 and that particular course of action would be carried out in the usual
13 Q. And who would initiate that process where the -- the mobilised
14 personnel were dealt with through the department? Who would initiate
15 that process once the brigade commander is informed?
16 A. Can you please repeat the question or clarify it?
17 Q. You just said if the individual was a reserve serviceman who been
18 mobilised by the department for defence, then he would be dealt with
19 through the department for defence.
20 So who would initiate that process where he can be dealt with or
21 disciplinary measures can be meted out through the department on how --
22 who had the duty to initiate that process?
23 A. The only competent body was the personnel service of the -- that
24 particular brigade.
25 Q. Thank you for that.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President that concludes my
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Could I just, in order to avoid whatever
4 confusion, Mr. Simic, you said you've seen the report yesterday. The
5 report yesterday, I think, Ms. Mahindaratne has put to you, was talking
6 about eight crimes, one report -- crime report having been prepared.
7 Is that what you were referring to in your earlier answer when
8 you said you have seen the statistics yesterday?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I meant that report.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just put to you how I do understand
11 your testimony and, please correct me when I'm wrong.
12 You said action would be taken against an active member of the
13 armed force once a crime report would have been accepted.
14 I then asked you whether if crime report would be made, whether
15 that would not be a very large number of crime reports, because in my
16 question I raised the issue of whether in all cases, crime reports were
17 made. You said, Yes, that should be a large number.
18 Then I asked you whether you had any recollection of the numbers
19 as such, and then you said, Well, if you do not include MUP and the 71st
20 Battalion, then you'll find the results in the report we looked at
21 yesterday. Now, yesterday we looked at a report where it was mentioned
22 that one crime report was submitted.
23 I'm just explaining to you what I understand your testimony is,
24 so in order to give you an opportunity to correct me if my understanding
25 is wrong.
1 Is my understanding right or wrong?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that what's unclear is
3 how the disciplinary procedure against an active serviceman is initiated.
4 That's to say against a professional member of the army.
5 I said that where a criminal report is filed and where it is
6 accepted by the prosecutor's office, then the proceedings are initiated
7 because there already exists material evidence as to his guilt.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is not a comment on my understanding of
9 your testimony, in terms of numbers, and that's what I focussed on.
10 Thank you for that answer, Mr. Simic.
11 Mr. Misetic, you will be the first one to cross-examine the
13 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Simic, you will now be cross-examined by
15 Mr. Misetic who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Simic.
18 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could please have on the screen
20 Q. Now, Mr. Simic this is the document that the Presiding Judge
21 showed you yesterday. I think we've already gone through verification of
22 your signature so we don't need to do that any longer --
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may just, as in the case
24 of how it is dealt with, the Prosecution statements. If the Defence
25 statement is to be put to the witness and since he has had the
1 opportunity to now peruse, perhaps it might be appropriate to ask the
2 witness perhaps by the Trial Chamber by Your Honours if he has any
3 corrections to make to this statement.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's see what Mr. Misetic has asked the
5 statement to be on the screen. Let's see how he proceed with them
6 because I do understand that he want to tender them under Rule 92 ter.
7 MR. MISETIC: Correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And then I take it that the usual attestations will
9 be sought and if there's any problem with that I'm always willing to
10 assist the parties.
11 MR. MISETIC:
12 Q. Mr. Simic, you were given this statement yesterday to review.
13 Were you able to review the document yesterday and today?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is that the statement that you gave to investigators of the
16 Gotovina Defence team in July 2008?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In reviewing that statement, was it accurate or did you find that
19 any corrections needed to be made?
20 A. The statement is accurate and there is no need for any
22 Q. If I asked you the same questions today again in court as you
23 were asked in July 2008, would your answers be the same today as they
24 were when you gave the statement in July 2008?
25 A. They would be the same.
1 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, pursuant to Rule 92 ter I'd ask that
2 the exhibit be admitted into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, there are four
5 paragraphs to redacted from that statement. That is page 1, paragraph 2,
6 page 4, paragraph 2, 3 and 4 according to your agreement yesterday.
7 MR. MISETIC: That is on the screen it is redacted already Your
9 JUDGE ORIE: So the redact the statement has been uploaded and
10 therefore I take it that there are no objection.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D840.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D840 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 If we could please go to page 4 in the English version -- oh,
17 actually that's -- sorry. This is redacted so let me -- let me put it to
18 you then -- I'll do it during the course of the examination, Your Honour.
19 I will get to that issue.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, my understanding Mr. Misetic
21 was that we paragraph 2, 3, and 4 of page 4 were to be redacted.
22 MR. MISETIC: No. In the e-mail Your Honour I said paragraph 2
23 would be led live. Paragraphs 3 and 4 would be redacted. It's in the
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will check the e-mail. Ms.
1 Mahindaratne, the e-mail reads:
2 "... will the Gotovina Defence will lead live paragraph 2, page
3 2, will lead live paragraph 2, page 4, will remove paragraph 3, page 4,
4 will remove paragraph 4, page 4."
5 That's what the e-mail says. And that's what was put on the
6 record yesterday as the agreement reached between the parties.
7 You would agree.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I agree with that e-mail Mr. President; it's
9 just that particularly with regard to paragraph 2 page 1, the fact that
10 if we could just move to page 1 the fact that it is left there, even if
11 Mr. Misetic is going to lead live, I wonder how that is going to -- what
12 kind of impact has because if Your Honour --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's wait and see what questions Mr. Misetic will
14 put to the witness and then he will be better able to see whether we have
15 to consider any impact.
16 MR. MISETIC: If I may comment, Your Honour.
17 Not 15 minutes ago Ms. Mahindaratne took paragraph 5 of her
18 supplemental statement read it to the witness first and then that is how
19 she had led it life so I'm not sure -- I'm following exactly the course.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then you indicated that do the same.
21 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed at this moment, we'll see what
23 happens, and then the Chamber will respond if there's any need to do so.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
25 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Madam Registrar, if we could please have on the screen Exhibit
2 P973, please.
3 Your Honour, should we get a MFI number first for the Defence
4 witness statement?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar. Not only a MFI. I think there was
6 no objection. Let me see whether we did already and we admitted it
8 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's one to one now on admission.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. MISETIC: Trying to keep up.
12 Page 10 of the English version, Mr. Registrar.
13 I don't know -- perhaps Ms. Mahindaratne knows the B/C/S page
14 of ... there we go. The entry at 1720, please.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Simic, you were asked by the Prosecution yesterday -
16 it's to the left on the bottom - about this entry at 1720 on the 10th of
17 August. You were asked some questions about a order that had been
18 received in the mail and says it's an order to comply with military
19 disciplinary measures from the command of the Military District Split.
20 Do you recall being questioned about that yesterday?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. I would ask you to pay particular attention to the class and
23 delivery number, okay? And what I'm going to show you now first is
24 Exhibit D204, Mr. Registrar.
25 As you can see, there is an order from General Gotovina on the
1 10th of August, the same day as the entry in the log-book, and it's an
2 order -- it says: "In order to prevent theft of property, undisciplined
3 conduct and to save human lives," and then there's order there from
4 General Gotovina. You can read through that.
5 And at the bottom it says - if we could scroll down in the
6 English, please, or go to the next page, apologise - it says it is
7 delivered to Operative Group Zapad, Operative Group Sibenik." Okay?
8 MR. MISETIC: Now, Mr. Registrar, if we could have 1D56-0048 on
9 the screen, please.
10 Q. This is an order from the commander of Operative Group Sibenik
11 that was received in the 113th brigade received the same day in which the
12 commander of Operative Group Sibenik is passing on the order he has
13 received from General Gotovina if you look at the bottom left-hand corner
14 which should be page 2, I guess, in the --
15 It says it is delivered to the -- the fourth entry says 4/72nd
16 battalion of the military police - for information.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And if we go back to the header on the first page in English, if
20 you look at the class number and the reference number, that reference
21 number and that class number match the numbers that are found in the
22 log-book of the 4th Company of the 72nd MP Battalion.
23 So it would appear that this is the order that arrived in the
24 mail on the 10th. And my question to you, sir, is when it says, "for
25 information to the 4th Company of the 72nd Military Police Battalion that
1 is not an order to them, is it?
2 A. No, it's not.
3 Q. Why does a commander send to the military police orders on
5 A. Probably to keep them abreast of it.
6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, I asked that Exhibit 1D56 --
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Preside, I object to that. I don't know
8 from where Mr. Misetic gathered that this is not an order. The document
9 reads at the top as an order.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think what Mr. Misetic is dealing with is to whom
11 this order was addressed.
12 That apparently is the issue, and we have heard the answer of the
13 witness. The Chamber can read the document. And Mr. Misetic paid
14 specific attention to the fact that at the bottom of this document it was
15 said that it was send for information to the 4th Company of the 72nd
16 Military Police Battalion.
17 That's how I understand the issue.
18 MR. MISETIC: That's correct Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against admission, Ms. Mahindaratne?
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D841.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D841 is admitted into evidence.
24 MR. MISETIC: Now, Mr. Registrar, if we could have on the
25 screen, please, Exhibit D269. And if we could go to paragraph number 2,
1 which is page 2 in the English.
2 Q. This is an order issued by the head of the military police
3 administration, General Lausic, right on the eve of Operation Storm. And
4 if we look at section 2. If could you read that please. I'm putting
5 this to you because you were asked some questions earlier today as to how
6 the military police was to handle civilians?
7 This was the order issued by General Lausic to the military
8 police on that issue. If could you read through that and then we'll move
9 on to section 3 when you're finished.
10 A. I've read it.
11 MR. MISETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... to the next
12 page, please, Mr. Registrar.
13 Q. It's just paragraph 3 that I'm concerned about.
14 A. Yes, I've read it.
15 Q. Before today, have you ever seen this order before?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Given the fact that you're a military policeman, was this order
18 intended to deal with the issue of civilians in a combat zone?
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object to that, Mr. President, what is the
20 foundation for this witness to be able to give an interpretation to
21 document he has never seen.
22 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he ...
24 MR. MISETIC: If that is the standard, Your Honour, then I think
25 the Prosecution's direct examination could be shortened greatly.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now and then foundation is asked and it would not be
2 a bad idea to do the same here.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. MISETIC:
5 Q. Do you know how the military police -- do you know if there's an
6 issue in a combat zone, sir, that when you enter a combat zone there are
7 civilians that may be there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And during the course of combat action in the military police,
10 generally speaking, would the military police receive instructions as to
11 how civilians in a combat zone should be treated?
12 A. Absolutely.
13 Q. And would civilians in a combat zone, from your experience, be
14 taken to a safer area so that they wouldn't be in a combat zone any
16 A. Yes. To make sure that they are not in danger, they would be
17 taken out.
18 Q. Now, in your response to Ms. Mahindaratne earlier on this
19 question you did say you thought it was maybe because -- that civilians
20 were taken to collection officers for their safety. Would this order be
21 consistent with your understanding as to why civilians would be taken to
22 collection centres?
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Objection Mr. President the witness has not
24 seen this document and his testimony is clear he has never received --
25 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has now seen this, and he is asked
1 whether this is consistent with his understanding of what his or the
2 military police duty was at that time, which is a -- an admissible
4 Please proceed.
5 The witness may answer the question.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If civilians are found to be
7 present in combat areas, particularly children, women, and the elderly,
8 but all of the civilians they have to be placed somewhere safely --
9 placed away somewhere safely because their place of residence is in
10 danger due to ongoing combat activities.
11 MR. MISETIC:
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. MISETIC: I'd like to move on to a different topic briefly
14 before the break.
15 Mr. Registrar, 1D56-0043, please.
16 Just to draw the Court's attention this is a document that I'm
17 putting to the witness that addresses an issue raised earlier this week
18 between myself and Mr. Margetts regarding an incident at a check-point.
19 Q. Mr. Simic, this is a report of the military police in Benkovac
20 from the 19th of September, 1995. And I'd ask you to take a look at it,
21 and I'd just like to ask you a few questions about it. It concerns an
22 incident at a check-point regarding a HV officer who had been stopped by
23 the Croatian civilian police and had his rear tire shot out. This is the
24 military police's version of that event.
25 A. Yes, I read the extent I could see.
1 Q. Well, let me just ask you what you've read up to this point.
2 Based on your experience as a military policeman, the check-point that is
3 referenced here, is that a joint check-point between the military police
4 and the MUP; or is that a MUP check-point and the military police were
5 called in as a result of an incident?
6 A. As far as I was able to see, it was not stated that this was a
7 joint check-point. The military police team came from Zadar, and I seem
8 to be familiar with these persons judging by their names, in order to
9 carry out an on-site investigation.
10 Q. Are you familiar with this incident?
11 A. No.
12 Q. As far as you know from your service in the military police, was
13 the -- the Croatian civilian police authorised to use force against a
14 member of the Croatian army if it was necessary in order to prevent him
15 from continuing in committing a criminal act?
16 A. They had to act according to their powers.
17 Q. Did those powers include the ability to use force to stop a
18 member of the HV?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender into evidence 1D56-0043.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D842.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D842 is admitted into evidence.
1 Yes, we're looking at the clock. At the same time, could the
2 parties assist me in telling me where even if the witness doesn't know
3 where Obonjan Island
4 MR. MISETIC: I can ask my client, Your Honour, if you --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
6 MR. MISETIC: He might be the only one in the room that knows.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course we could check that on the map. Of
8 the accused are not invited to give evidence, but at the same time this
9 might --
10 MR. MIKULICIC: If I may be of assistance, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. MIKULICIC: The Obonjan Island is just across the town of
13 Sibenik, and it is a well known touristic destination.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me see what I can -- because I would have
15 one follow-up question before we go to the -- before we have a break.
16 You were asked whether moving out the elderly would be consistent
17 with taking them to a safe place. Could you tell us, when did you
18 consider the actual combat situation to be not directly endangering the
19 civilian population anymore?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the answer to that. I
21 can't gauge that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If Operation Storm took place, 4th, 5th of
23 August, by the 10th of August, would the combat operations be such that
24 there was still a need to move civilians from areas where combat could be
25 expected or was taking place?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible. If there were
2 skirmishes, the situation may have been threatening and endangering them
3 at the time as well. I don't know. I was not out in the field.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But if it was the task of the military police to
5 bring them to a safe place, you would have to know, isn't it, when there
6 was a need to do so.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to clarify the following. I
8 was heading the military police crime service. I did not take part in
9 the activities on the ground. I did not tour the check-points. That's
10 why I'm not familiar with such matters.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you aware of the reception officer for
12 civilians, which was mentioned in the document that was shown to you
13 earlier? Did you know about the existence of that reception centre for
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you consider that a safe place for civilians at
17 that time?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely so. It was outside of
19 any -- of reach of any combat activities at that time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it consistent with bringing civilians to a
21 safe place to drive them out of this reception centre and to take them to
22 another reception centre on the island of Obonjan
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that that was in -- in
24 order. That was all right.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So if they are in a safe place, you are free to move
1 them to another safe place, on an island, perhaps further away from home.
2 Was it your understanding that you were free to move these civilians even
3 though in a safe place, to other safe places?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my knowledge, Baldekin was the
5 reception centre for both civilians and prisoners of war. Of course
6 prisoners of war had to be separated from civilians, and thus civilians
7 were being taken to a safer reception centre by being transported do the
8 Obonjan island.
9 JUDGE ORIE: At that point in time, which is the -- I think it
10 was the 12th of August. There was still a need to bring them to a safer
11 place. It was not safe enough in the reception centre.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that it was not safe, but there
13 was no need for them to be there at Baldekin that was in the centre of
14 town, and there was no need for them to be placed together with prisoners
15 of war, if there were any at the time there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
17 We'll have a break. We'll resume at quarter past 4.00.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, you asked permission to briefly address
22 the Chamber.
23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I we would just like on behalf of all
24 three defense teams some -- just to put on the record and ask for the
25 trial chambers guidance, but we think there may be some confusion about
1 these collection centres, and I'm not asking for an answer now but if
2 there is further submission that the Trial Chamber wants on this issue,
3 where they were, et cetera, our position with respect to the two specific
4 centres that were questioning him about before, where they were moved
5 from a basketball court to luxury hotels is essentially what transpired
6 there. But we try to deal with that issue with Mr. Kardum but if the
7 chamber wants further submissions on this, I think all three Defence
8 teams are prepared.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll keep it in the back of our minds whether
10 basketball fields or other locations at what point in time would give
11 greater safety.
12 That's good that it's on the record. If we need it, we will
13 certainly ask for it. And then perhaps, Ms. Mahindaratne, if it would be
14 joint submissions, the Chamber would even prefer that.
15 Then anything else? Not. Then may the witness be --
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President before the --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- brought into the courtroom against. Yes.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think P967, 968, 969 are still in MFI
19 status. If I'm not mistaken, they were not admitted into evidence.
20 Those are the three statements, Mr. President. The statement of 28
21 January -- yeah.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The -- no, it was two statements and a letter.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And they have now been uploaded. And the letter was
25 already admitted into evidence. Isn't it? Because there was no
1 redaction needed there. Whereas the two statements, that
2 January statement and the October statement, they had to be uploaded,
3 redacted, and as we saw them being uploaded, that is in accordance with
4 the agreement. So therefore I take it that there's no objection against
5 admission anymore.
6 Mr. Registrar, the -- could you repeat the numbers I think it is
7 P967, P968 are now admitted into evidence, whereas P969, the letter, was
8 already admitted.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And also, Mr. President, P972, now all
12 translations are uploaded into e-court.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, all the chapters you were referring to.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Exactly.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then if the Defence could verify that that's the
16 case, and therefore no further objections, then, it's ready to be
18 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour. It is correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, P9 -- no, I'm now making a mistake.
20 MR. MISETIC: P972.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P972 is admitted into evidence. With the relevant
22 cover page and the relevant pages -- the relevant chapters being
23 translated whereas the original is the full document.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have on the
3 screen Exhibit P974.
4 Q. Mr. Simic, this is the monthly report that we've talked about
5 yesterday and today.
6 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 3 of this report, please, in
7 the English.
8 Q. Now, in the report that you sent, it talks about in the last
9 sentence it says: "In the above-mentioned time-period, members of the
10 Sibenik crime investigation military police filed nine reports for
11 violation of military discipline.
12 Who did the military crime police file such reports with?
13 A. With the brigades that the perpetrators were members of.
14 Q. And would the military police receive information back once any
15 disciplinary measure was taken?
16 A. No. That was up to the commander of any such unit.
17 Q. The military police had a role, however, in -- in keeping
18 commanders informed about breaches of military discipline. Correct?
19 A. Correct. That's correct.
20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours with your permission I would like to
21 use some words in Croatian here and have the translators assist me with
22 the interpretation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To a limited extent to help us out, but it
24 should really be the exception because that's not their task, and if
25 there is any issue remaining it should be dealt with by CLSS by the -- by
1 the translators not by the interpreters.
2 MR. MISETIC: One sentence in Croatian.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, do you know the difference between a
5 disciplinary or breach of discipline or an act of indiscipline?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreter -- could the witness
7 please repeat.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer in full because
9 the interpreters could not translate it.
10 Please proceed.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the
13 MR. MISETIC:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please tell us the difference between
15 a breach of discipline or a disciplinary offence and act of indiscipline?
16 A. A breach of discipline is a graver offence, and a disciplinary is
17 measure is something that is issued by commander. And this is a minor
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, from the answer I take it there may be
20 confusion. Could I suggest --
21 MR. MISETIC: It's actually an issue I've been trying to figure
22 out for awhile now on how to translate those words because they're
23 extremely difficult to translate into English.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you would try to put the question into English
25 and see -- you also could ask him whether he --
1 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you could perhaps ask the witness a more open
3 question on whether he knows different forms of -- different forms of not
4 meeting the requirements of discipline. I --
5 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. MISETIC:
8 Q. Mr. Simic, there are really under the Croatian system at the time
9 two different types of breaches of discipline. One is a so-called minor
10 infraction of discipline, such as failure to keep your boots tied;
11 failure to keep your uniform tidy; failure to keep your bed neat. And
12 then there are serious violations of military discipline. Is that
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Now, with respect to serious violations of military discipline,
16 can you describe for us, first of all, what you would consider to be a
17 serious violation of military discipline?
18 A. Those would be violations that in -- put life in danger or that
19 would put property in danger, and such instances were dealt with by the
20 military prosecutor's office.
21 Q. Was there also something in the Croatian system known as the
22 military disciplinary court?
23 A. Absolutely. And it existed specifically for such cases as we
24 have described.
25 Q. And if someone, a Croatian army soldier, committed a serious
1 breach of military discipline, that soldier would be brought before the
2 military disciplinary court to determine whether he should be punished
3 for that breach of discipline. Correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Okay. Now, the report that we have on the screen, was that a
6 report that you sent to your superior, Mr. Boris Milas?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And you have already testified that Boris Milas was the chief of
9 the crime -- military crime police at the level of the 72nd Military
10 Police Battalion. Are you aware that his superior was the chief of the
11 crime police in Zagreb
12 by the name of Spomenko Eljuga?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could be please repeat the name of the
15 MR. MISETIC: S-p-o-m-e-n-k-o, E-l-j-u-g-a.
16 A. Yes, are you correct.
17 Q. Do you know if Mr. Milas passed on your report to the military
18 police administration in Zagreb
19 A. It was his duty to compile the reports that he received from all
20 the battalions and refer --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. From all the
22 companies and refer that compiled report to Zagreb.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I insisted earlier on knowing what
24 happens rather than what duties were, so could you please also for the
25 following questions try to find out what happened, not only what people
1 were duty-bound to do.
2 Here is the answer -- you asked him whether it was -- I think
3 whether the report was passed, and the answer was he was duty-bound to do
5 MR. MISETIC:
6 Q. Do you know if this particular report was ever sent by Mr. Milas
7 to Zagreb
8 report that he would send to Zagreb
9 A. Maybe not in this form. However, the figures and the tables were
10 enclosed with the report that he did sent to Zagreb. When we're talking
11 about information, and I mean figures, tables that was sent to Zagreb
12 Q. Okay. Do you know if, in the military police administration in
14 completed for that month, meaning August 1995?
15 A. I wouldn't know that. This is above my level.
16 Q. You were asked some questions about the case of Goran Vunic. Now
17 Goran Vunic was a commander in the HV. Correct?
18 A. I believe that he was the commander of a reconnaissance platoon
19 in a brigade.
20 Q. Okay. So in the fall of 1995, you were authorised to investigate
21 commanders who were involved in criminal activity. Correct?
22 A. Correct. You're correct.
23 Q. If the military crime police determined that a commander of a
24 unit was complicit in a crime, what steps would you have had to take?
25 A. Just like in case of anybody else.
1 Q. Which would mean what?
2 A. If a crime was committed, the crime was identified, qualified,
3 and all the necessary documents were collected and sent to the military
4 prosecutor's office.
5 Q. Now, you've testified that you were ordered by Commander Mrkota
6 to stop the investigation of Mr. Vunic. Did you advise your superior,
7 Mr. Milas, that Commander Mrkota had ordered you to stop the
9 A. As far as I can remember, I did.
10 Q. And you've testified today that you were acting pursuant to a
11 search warrant that had been issued by a Court. Did you ever -- did the
12 Court ever inquire of you at some point as to whether you had actually
13 executed the warrant?
14 A. No, it never did.
15 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar if we could have on the screen
17 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for that perhaps I could ask one
18 additional question.
19 Mr. Simic, earlier you were asked about disciplinary violations
20 of discipline and -- and crimes and about disciplinary court.
21 Now looting, could looting ever be a disciplinary contravention
22 or a disciplinary misbehaviour rather than a crime? Would it be dealt
23 with under disciplinary law, rather than under criminal law?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A criminal report submitted against
25 a perpetrator did not exclude a disciplinary measure.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But could it ever be considered to be a disciplinary
2 contravention, or whatever word I should use, and dealt with as such and
3 not as a criminal offence?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If theft indeed happened and if the
5 perpetrators -- perpetrator was caught, a criminal report would be filed,
6 and if this was not the case, then the measure applied would be a
7 disciplinary measure.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me try to understand what you exactly say,
9 is that if no criminal report would be filed, it could be dealt with
10 through disciplinary measures.
11 Is that ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And I think you earlier told us that you wouldn't
14 know whether crime reports would always be made in respect of such cases.
15 Does that mean that you also do not know to what extent looting
16 was dealt with as -- in terms of disciplinary measures?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know, no.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Misetic.
19 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
20 Q. Before we get to this document, Baldekin, are you familiar with
21 what Baldekin is in Sibenik, B-a-l-d-e-k-i-n?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. What is that?
24 A. Baldekin is a sports hall, a basketball hall.
25 Q. And is that where the civilians were taken in the initial days of
1 Operation Storm?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is now on the screen, sir. This is a judgement concerning
4 the case that you had investigated. And we've translated certain
6 In the judgement, you can see that Goran Vunic subsequently
7 became a witness in that case and gave evidence as a witness.
8 Were you aware subsequent to October 1995 that Goran Vunic became
9 a witness in the case that you had investigated?
10 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, may we move into private session just
13 for a minute.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
15 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, I -- we've excerpted only the
21 relevant portions of the judgement, so I would tender this document into
22 evidence, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, with judgements what is relevant and what
24 is not relevant of course, Ms. Mahindaratne, have you been in a position
25 to form an opinion about the selection made by the Gotovina Defence.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I would object to just this
2 excerpt in because I'm familiar with the document, and I think the entire
3 document we ourselves intended to submit this document later on from the
4 bar table so --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Have you already -- is there already a translation
6 of the whole of the document available?
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: At that stage I'm not aware as to whether we
8 have a -- may I just inquire from the -- my team and get back to you,
9 Mr. President?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I do understand that you have no objection
11 against the introduction into evidence of this judgement, but you'd
12 rather have the whole of the judgement.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 MR. MISETIC: Let me just advise the Court, OTP has chunks
15 translated but not the entire document translated. We've taken from
16 their chunks a smaller chunk. I have no objection to the whole judgement
17 coming in either, but for purposes of when we have to deal with this at
18 the end of the day, I think it might be easier if the reference so
19 Goran Vunic are easily accessible.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The parties are invited to agree on those portions
21 of the judgement that they both consider not to be relevant for this case
22 and then to have the remainder tendered into evidence. I think since the
23 original is a complete document, I take it, then we already assign a
24 number to that. It will be marked for identification, and we'll wait
25 what the parties agree upon as relevance of all portions of it.
1 Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become exhibit number
3 D843, marked for identification.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It keeps that status for the time being.
5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Mr. Registrar, could we please have on the screen, Exhibit D267.
7 Q. Mr. Simic, this is an order from General Lausic dated
8 2 August 1995
9 MR. MISETIC: And if we could go in the English, please, to
10 page 4, and in the Croatian it is page 3.
11 Q. Now, this is a General Lausic's order, and in the second
12 paragraph in section 10, he says that he:
13 "Appoints Major Ivan Juric and a group of officers from the
14 regular VP section and the VP administration crime section to assist in
15 commanding and organizing the activities of the 72nd VP Battalion, and
16 73rd VP Battalion that shall perform tasks in its own area of
17 responsibility and provide necessary assistance to the 72nd VP
19 And then the sentence: "The commanders of the 72nd VP Battalion
20 and 73rd VP Battalion shall be subordinated to Major Ivan Juric."
21 MR. MISETIC: Now, Mr. Registrar, if we could go to Exhibit D268,
23 Q. This is a follow-up order referencing the order we just read, and
24 it says -- if we could go to the next page in English, please. It's the
25 3rd of August, 1995.
1 The introduction says:
2 "Pursuant to the assessed and demonstrated need with a view to
3 efficient and effective implementation of military police and other tasks
4 in VP units' zones of responsibility, and effective system of command,
5 supervision, and provision of professional assistance to RHOS VP units, I
6 hereby issue the following order."
7 And section one says:
8 "A group of UVP officers led by major Ivan Juric including the
9 following officers: Senior lieutenant Damir Muduna from the UVP
10 department, senior lieutenant Ante Glavan."
11 Now do you know who Ante Glavan?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Who was that on the 3rd of August, 1995?
14 A. A member of the crime police department attached to the military
15 police administration.
16 Q. In your activities in the field during and after Operation Storm,
17 did you ever come across Ante Glavan?
18 A. I believe I did. I did.
19 Q. Where?
20 A. I saw him once in Sibenik.
21 Q. Was it related to military police duties?
22 A. I don't think so.
23 Q. How about Major Ivan Juric, did you ever come across him during
24 or after Operation Storm?
25 A. Yes, in Sibenik as well.
1 Q. And how many times did you see him in Sibenik?
2 A. Just as was the case with Ante Glavan. They were together.
3 Q. And can you describe for us the circumstances of that meeting?
4 A. They came to visit the barracks where the 4th Company was
6 Q. And what transpired there? Did they do a review of your work?
7 A. No. They attended a meeting with the company commander. They
8 were there probably for agreement.
9 Q. Do you know if any information was provided to them about the
10 results of the work of the crime military police section of the 4th
11 Company during and after Operation Storm?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MR. MISETIC: If we could have, Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 423.
15 Q. This is an order issued by General Lausic. It appears that it is
16 issued and addressed directly to the 3rd Company, 4th Company and 6th
17 Company of the 72nd Military Police Battalion. It does not appear to go
18 through either Major Juric or Mr. Budimir but goes directly from
19 Mr. Lausic to your company.
20 Now, please take a look and read through this document. At least
21 the first page of it.
22 Actually, to save some time, I will take you to the relevant
23 portion the first is the subject. On the second page, we see that this
24 was received 4 August 1995
25 The subject is: "Contents of reports in relation to the
1 performance of the military police tasks as per the order of the chief of
2 the military police administration."
3 In point 12 it said that Mr. Juric was obligated to sent reports
4 to the military police administration everyday by 8.00 p.m. And then
5 General Lausic following up on that point, issues this order on what
6 those reports -- what information those reports need to contain.
7 In the introduction it says the report is to be submitted
8 directly to the MP administration by using code system.
9 If we go to paragraph number 2. It says:
10 "The content of the report shall contain, 2, the status of public
11 law and order, in a zone of combat operations, and in newly liberated
12 areas, stating events when the MP had to act and results of
14 Point 4: "The status of crime in liberated areas and in zones of
15 combat operations. Number of crimes, crime reports filed and escort of
16 HV members who committed a crime."
17 And then we go to point 9: "The system of daily reporting
18 through services remains as it is. This report is to be signed by a MP
19 unit commander, that is, officers of the MP administration in accordance
20 with the item 12 of the above-mentioned order, starting with 4
21 August 1995, and including the status at 1900 hours."
22 Now, in point 9 the officer of the MP administration as we see --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, the witness might be confused by not
24 finding a number 9 on his document because after 8 although it continues,
25 there's no 9. Where it is in the English translation.
1 MR. MISETIC: Sorry, Your Honour.
2 Q. It's the paragraph which begin, Mr. Simic, after the
3 paragraph number 8.
4 Now, the officer of the MP administration referenced in item 12
5 is Mr. Juric. So this order goes directly from General Lausic to your
6 company. Do you recall sending information to Major Juric concerning the
7 number of crime, crimes reports filed, and escort of HV members who
8 committed a crime?
9 A. I don't remember sending any reports to him. We sent daily
10 reports to the duty service, which sent them on to the HQ of the 72nd
12 Q. Well, if the commander of the 4th Company of the 72 Military
13 Police Battalion received an order directly from General Lausic, and in
14 that order the commander of the company needs to provide or is ordered to
15 provide information about the number of crimes -- crime reports filed,
16 and escort of HV members who committed a crime, the commander of the 4th
17 Company presumably would have had to go to you as the head of the crime
18 police section in the 4th Company to obtain those -- that information.
19 Is that correct?
20 A. There was no need for that, since I sent daily reports to the
21 duty service. He was able to find the information he needed there.
22 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, I add that this exhibit be marked,
23 and I tender it into evidence.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D844.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D844 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have on the
4 screen 1D56-0051.
5 Q. This is now a report from Commander Mrkota, the commander of the
6 4th Company reporting to the commander of the 72nd MP Battalion on the
7 7th of August and he says in the opening paragraph :
8 "Pursuant to the oral order of the chief of the military police
9 administration, Major-General Mate Lausic, received 7 August 1995 at 1310
10 hours, who ordered that a security system be established urgently at the
11 entries and exits of the following warehouses," and then it goes on.
12 Were you aware at that time during and after Operation Storm that
13 General Lausic was issuing orders directly to the commander of the 4th
14 Company of the 72nd Military Police Battalion?
15 A. No, I was not.
16 Q. Is there anything in your experience unusual about General Lausic
17 issuing orders to a company in the military police battalion that did not
18 go through the commander of the 72nd Military Police Battalion?
19 A. Well, the chain of command was interrupted this way, in my
21 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, I asked that these be marked, and I
22 tender them into evidence.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D845.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D845 is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. MISETIC:
3 Q. Did you ever receive an order from any HV officer -- directly
4 receive an order from any HV officer who was not himself a member of the
5 military police?
6 A. No, never.
7 Q. Just a few questions about your background, Mr. Simic.
8 What level of police training do you have?
9 A. I've mostly attended courses.
10 Q. Can you tell the Court what type of courses you took prior to
11 being appointed the head of the crime military police of the 4th Company?
12 A. My apologies, I was not a chief. I was merely at the head of the
13 service. The chief was Boris Milas.
14 Q. It may be -- I said head of the crime military police of the 4th
16 So can you tell us what type of courses you took before you were
17 appointed to that position.
18 A. Drugs abuse course; peacekeeping operations course. I believe
19 that those were the two.
20 Q. You didn't receive any type of training in criminal -- criminal
21 investigative work. Correct?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. So is it fair to say that you were the head of that section in --
24 sorry. The head of the crime police, military police section in the 4th
25 Company although had you no prior training in criminal investigative
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Now a few basic questions.
4 You had a legal duty to investigate any crime that was committed
5 by a member of the HV in your area of responsibility. Correct?
6 A. That's correct. If the offence was reported.
7 Q. With the exception of your investigation of Goran Vunic, were you
8 ever told not to investigate a criminal act committed by a member of the
10 A. No. Save for the specific offence.
11 Q. I'm not sure I understood that last part. What do you mean by,
12 "save for the specific offence"?
13 A. No, none other than the Goran Vunic case, that is.
14 Q. If the military police has information that a crime has been
15 committed by a member of the HV what is the job of the military police at
16 that point?
17 A. They had the duty to take all measures to investigate the crime.
18 Q. If, for some reason, you are obstructed in your ability to
19 conduct a criminal investigation, whether it's because the commander of a
20 particular unit is interfering with your work, or you are shorthanded,
21 what steps do you take if there is some inability on your part to conduct
22 that criminal investigation?
23 A. I would draw up a written report stating the reasons why I cannot
24 do that --
25 THE INTERPRETER: And can the witnesses repeat the last thing he
2 MR. MISETIC:
3 Q. Can you repeat the last portion of your answer Mr. Simic. The
4 interpreter didn't hear you. And if you could speak into the microphone,
6 A. Thank you. I would make written reports about the reasons why I
7 could not conduct the investigation, and I would orally report to my
8 reporters about the matter -- to my superiors about the matter.
9 Q. Well, if you would make a written report, who would you send the
10 written report to?
11 A. Normally the reports would remain part of the case file. That
12 was the case when Goran Vunic was concerned. I made a written report
13 about why I would not carry out the investigation and I orally reported
14 to my superior, Boris Milas.
15 Q. Now, is there a reason that you would orally report that
16 obstruction in your investigation rather than filing a written report to
17 your superior?
18 A. No. There is no reason behind that. Reports can be submitted
19 orally or in writing.
20 Q. Well, how would you -- how would you later be able to document
21 the fact that you alerted your superior to the fact that you had been
22 interfered with in an investigation? For example --
23 A. Specifically only the Official Note, such as I made in the
24 Goran Vunic case. If we're talking about that specific case.
25 Q. Yes. But you -- not necessarily talking about that specific
1 case. But how would you prove to someone later that you alerted your
2 superior to the fact that there had been some sort of interference in
3 your ability to conduct an investigation?
4 A. Well, this was a specific situation where it was impossible to
5 submit a written report. Normally one does put it on paper as well, to
6 have some trace of it in writing.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have Exhibit P203 on the
9 Krajina again please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, meanwhile I would like to seek a
11 clarification of the last answer.
12 You said, "This was a specific situation where it was impossible
13 to submit a written report."
14 What made it impossible?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you a specific answer.
16 It may have been the workload or my absence from the unit. There could
17 have been a number of reasons. It was a busy time, and plenty of duties
18 to do, attend to.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, your previous answer was not under the
20 prevailing circumstances it might have been difficult. You said: "It
21 was a specific situation where it was impossible to submit a written
23 What made the situation so specific that it was impossible to
24 write a written report?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies. Perhaps I didn't
1 explain it in my first answer, but I did in the second.
2 That was it. The specificity of the situation consisted in the
3 great work loud, busy schedule, and so on.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Now, you were shown this document earlier today.
7 MR. MISETIC: And if we go to the bottom portion in the English.
8 Q. This is again a report on the 8th of August that talks about the
9 fact that in the areas of Bribirski Mostine, Djevrska, and Kistanje, the
10 situation is rather chaotic. Incidents of mass burning houses,
11 plundering of property, alcohol consumption occur, and units lack
13 Then the second-to-last sentence says: "A military police
14 platoon has been assigned to the area in order to normalise the situation
15 concerning the HV members."
16 MR. MISETIC: Now, if we could go to P973, Mr. Registrar, please,
17 and page 6 in the English of that document.
18 Q. Now this document on the 8th refers to a platoon that was sent to
19 Kistanje on the 6th -- sorry, that was sent to Kistanje to normalise the
21 MR. MISETIC: Now if we go again to the log-book of the 4th
22 Company. If we could go to the next page in the English.
23 Q. At 2050, on the 6th of August, the 4th Company's log-book
24 identifies the military policemen that went he to Kistanje.
25 Do you see that, sir?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. So on the 6th we have an entry that the members of the platoon
3 were sent to Kistanje. On the 8th, there's confirmation that they were
4 sent to normalise the situation.
5 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to D737, please.
6 If we could go to page 9 in the English of this document.
7 Actually, I'm sorry, page 4 first.
8 Q. This is a report of Commander Budimir that goes to Mr. Lausic on
9 the 13th of August, 1995. If you look on page 4 you'll note that it does
10 not go to the Split Military District but only goes to Mr. Lausic.
11 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 9 now, please.
12 Q. And at the bottom of that page in English, there's an entry there
13 at the bottom that says that: "The first platoon of the military
14 police ..." I should take a step back.
15 This is the section of the report that talks about the 4th
16 Company from Sibenik.
17 It says: "The first platoon of the military police and their 24
18 military policemen have been relocated to Kistanje.
19 Now, my first -- it appears that military police were in
20 Kistanje. My next question to you, sir, is are you aware that Major
21 Ivan Juric was himself in Kistanje during this period between the 4th of
22 August and the time of the filing of this report?
23 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
24 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, can we go to D274, please.
25 This is page 4 in the English version; page 5 in the B/C/S.
1 Q. This is from a diary of a UN military policeman. And in it,
2 towards the bottom, he says: "Driving towards Benkovac, met Ivan ..."
3 And he has already testified that that means Ivan Juric.
4 "... on the road and said, hi. He said he was going around to
5 lots of places. Asked if we could follow. Said yes. Went to a couple
6 of places. We waited while he talked to people. Stopped at a factory,
7 east side of Kistanje. He went in, about 12 military policemen."
8 Now, that is a report of a UN military policeman on the 9th of
9 August placing Mr. Juric in Kistanje with the platoon of the 4th Company
10 that had been dispatched.
11 MR. MISETIC: If we can go now to D732 for Mr. Juric's report to
12 Mr. Lausic for that day.
13 Q. In the report, which presumably is issued to the orders that
14 we've already gone through by General Lausic to have Mr. Juric report to
15 him about criminal activity that is taking place --
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, presumably, I don't know on
17 what basis, you know -- I don't think presumption what we -- is required
18 in this proceedings.
19 MR. MISETIC: I won't presume then.
20 Q. This report --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ...
22 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I established the orders and unless
23 Ms. Mahindaratne knows of some other order to Mr. Juric concerning
24 reporting I would suggest that those are the orders he is acting under.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is a matter Mr. President's Trial Chamber
1 will address.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to avoid as much as possible all kind of
3 presumptions in questions, although I do see there's a greater margin for
4 the Defence in cross-examining a Prosecution witness than there would be
5 for the Prosecution when examining in chief their own witnesses.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
8 Q. Major Juric was issued an order on the 3rd of August to report to
9 the military police station -- military police administration about acts
10 of criminal activity and what measures were being taken.
11 On the 9th of August, he is seen in Kistanje with the MP platoon.
12 And for that day, there's no mention in the report about any problems in
13 Kistanje, or any action being taken.
14 MR. MISETIC: If we go to the next day, which is D733.
15 Q. And will you note that Major Juric's reports go only to the
16 military police administration.
17 Point 2:
18 "The 4th Sibenik Company area of responsibility, in addition to
19 their regular military police tasks, the members of this unit are still
20 guarding two industrial facilities and the Orthodox monastery in
22 There's no additional information about any action being taken by
23 the military police in Kistanje on the 10th.
24 Now, I put it to you that we've seen orders now from
25 General Lausic both -- on the 2nd, the 3rd as well as an order that he
1 issued directly to the 4th Company of the military police requiring that
2 information on a daily basis concerning criminal activity be sent to him
3 by 8.00 p.m.
4 Company that a crime had been committed in Kistanje, that information
5 should have been included in Mr. Juric's reports. Correct?
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. If measures were being taken to conduct a criminal investigation
8 into criminal activity that took place in Kistanje, that information
9 should have been in the reports that Major Juric was sending to
10 General Lausic. Correct?
11 A. I believe so.
12 Q. Can you explain how it transpired that the 4th Company of Sibenik
13 was in Kistanje and that Major Juric was in Kistanje and that --
14 A. I can't explain. This was not what I was dealing with at the
16 Q. Well, why -- and I was going to say and Ante Glavan who you
17 identified as the person who went with Major Juric into the field and who
18 was from the crime police section in the administration in Zagreb
19 is that you never received a call to come to Kistanje and conduct a
20 criminal investigation.
21 A. I don't have an explanation. I really don't know.
22 Q. Now, I we've seen the exhibit. I don't need to show you anymore
23 about eight crimes having been solved in August 1995. That averages out
24 -- you also testified yesterday that you had eight men under your -- at
25 your disposal; let's put it that way.
1 How is it that in one month, on average, you -- your men were
2 able to solve one crime each?
3 A. It depended on the crime, and the nature of the crime, whether it
4 was a complicated or a simple crime. I could not set the pace. The
5 employees themselves determined how fast they could work.
6 Q. Well, the question that arose yesterday and that I will put to
7 you, to give you an opportunity to explain, is if, on average, each --
8 each person solved one crime, tell the Court what it is that they were
9 doing with the rest of their time.
10 A. Maybe they were working on some other investigations that had
11 already started before. In any case, they were not idle. Some
12 investigations took months, a month, month and a half. It took time to
13 collect all the material evidence.
14 Q. Did you --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Invite the witness to be concrete on these matters.
16 You say it may be that they were working on other cases. Could
17 you give us information about the eight men, not a huge number, which
18 were at your disposal.
19 Tell us a case which they were working on which took them a
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe they were collecting evidence
22 that was not readily available. It was not their fault that they could
23 not get hold of the evidence immediately. Maybe there were other
24 services involved.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not blaming them. What I would like you to do
1 is to give us one case, not what they maybe have done, but give us one
2 case in which they were engaged in investigations for a month in that
3 period of time. Must have been a major case if it takes you a month and
4 keeps you busy instead of paying attention to other matters.
5 Can you give us an example?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give you the example of
7 members of the 7th Guards Brigade from Osijek. When that brigade --
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm talking
9 about your eight people, no one else.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I'm trying
11 to tell you.
12 At that moment there were not eight people because six -- two
13 were in Drnis, so we're talking about six people, myself and five others.
14 But members of the 7th Guards Brigade had committed a crime and certain
15 evidence was collected. But then that brigade or at least some members
16 of it withdrew into the barracks, so it was more difficult to collect all
17 necessary information. Maybe some of the material had to undergo a
18 forensic expertise.
19 I don't know why the investigation could not be completed in a
20 short time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: What crime had they committed, these members of the
22 7th Guards Brigade?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember. It was a long
24 time ago.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
1 MR. MISETIC: [Microphone not activated].
2 Q. If one of your subordinates committed a disciplinary infraction,
3 did you have the authority to discipline him?
4 A. It was the company commander, Nenad Mrkota, who had that
5 authority. But also he had to accompany that with a report to
6 Major Boris.
7 Q. Did you ever hear of military policemen themselves being
8 disciplined or criminally prosecuted?
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. Do you know of any instance in the four years between 1991 and
11 1995 when a military policeman received a disciplinary measure?
12 A. Maybe some mild disciplinary measures for inappropriate behaviour
13 or some such thing.
14 Q. Okay. Who could issue disciplinary measures to the military
16 A. The battalion commander. The company commander would issue a
17 proposal and then the battalion commander would order the measure that
18 was previously already identified by the company commander.
19 What I'm say something is that the company commander would issue
20 a proposal and accompany it with a proposal of the measure that was to be
21 instituted, and then the battalion commander would either accept the
22 suggestion or reject it.
23 Q. If there was some problem in the work of the crime police
24 section, isn't it the case that the action was to be taken by Mr. Milas
25 and then, above him, by the military police administration?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Do you know of any instance where an HV commander who was not in
3 the military police could discipline or otherwise remove someone who was
4 within the military police?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
8 I suggest that we have a break now. May I take it that the
9 estimates given yesterday have not grown overnight.
10 MR. KAY: They've changed, in the sense that the content has --
11 has had to change because of developments today. I will try and keep to
12 the half another I said, but I think it is more likely to be 45 minutes,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic.
15 MR. MIKULICIC: On the other side, Your Honour, I will have no
17 JUDGE ORIE: No cross. That --
18 Then we will have a break, and we resume at five minutes to 6.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
23 Ms. Mahindaratne, could I already inquire with you, whether you
24 have a lot of question in re-examination.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: So far only five questions, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Simic, you will you now be cross-examined by Mr.
4 Kay. Mr. Kay is counsel for Mr. Cermak.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:
8 Q. Mr. Simic, if we could just look at your statement that you made
9 in January 2008.
10 MR. KAY: Exhibit P967, please.
11 Q. And just look at the first paragraph. And I'm going to ask you
12 some questions about the commander of the 72nd.
13 If we look at your statement here, we see that you refer to
14 Colonel Budimir, Mihael Budimir as being the commander of the 72nd.
15 Is that right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. You just looked at some documents about half an hour ago
18 concerning Major Juric and we saw some orders from General Lausic
19 actually appointing him the commander of the 72nd from the 3rd of August,
20 1995. Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So this paragraph here should be amended, shouldn't it, to
23 reflect that fact, that during the period from the 3rd of August, 1995
24 afterwards, Major Juric was the commander of the 72nd Battalion?
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President. I object, Mr. President. The
1 witness was shown documents. This is his testimony, and it is up to the
2 parties to present the evidence to the Trial Chamber and ask for a
3 conclusion on this matter, not ask the witness to change his statement
4 according to the material that is shown to him in the course of
6 JUDGE ORIE: The evidence given by the witness can be tested in
7 cross-examination and that could include that matters are put to him
8 either the same matters or other matters and that questions are asked and
9 then we'll see whether the witness gives the same answers or whether he
10 will clarify or will further detail whatever he earlier testified.
11 You may proceed, Mr. Kay.
12 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Am I right Mr. Simic, that in this paragraph here it should be
14 amended to reflect the fact that Major Juric was the commander of the
15 72nd Battalion for a period of time in August 1995?
16 A. According to my information Mihael Budimir was the commander and
17 Mr. Juric was the coordinator of certain operations or actions that I'm
18 not aware of or familiar with.
19 Q. Did you notice in those orders you looked at today that it said
20 that Major Juric was the commander of the 72nd and the 73rd.
21 A. He was Mr. Lausic's rapporteur from the field. I suppose he had
22 authorities, but I don't know what those were. I don't know what powers
23 he had.
24 Q. Also looking at this paragraph here, it says that your commander
25 was Captain Mrkota, and you received orders from Captain Mrkota who, in
1 turn, received his orders from Budimir?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You've also told us today that, in fact, you received orders from
4 Boris Milas who was head of the criminal section of the 72nd. Isn't that
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. So would it be right to say that you received orders from
8 Major Boris Milas of the criminal section, and you reported to
9 Boris Milas of the criminal section?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. So your statement here in paragraph 1, whilst being accurate
12 concerning Captain Mrkota and Colonel Budimir, would you agree, doesn't
13 show the full reporting and subordination chain of the 72nd?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 Looking at paragraph 3 of the statement you have here, you refer
17 to the 72nd Battalion consisting of an anti-terrorist platoon, nine
18 general military police companies, and you name them: Sinj, the next
19 one, Gospic. Wasn't Gospic not part of the 72nd but, in fact, a company
20 of the 71st?
21 A. Yes, you're right.
22 Q. Thank you. So the paragraph here is also inaccurate in this
23 statement. Is that right?
24 A. You're talking about the 71st Battalion. Did I understand you
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
2 A. The 71st Battalion of the military police Gospic was subordinated
3 to the 72nd Battalion which was probably under the command of Aladzic
4 [phoen] but it was on the strength of the 71st military police.
5 Q. Let's just look at the rest of the companies there. Knin,
6 Sibenik, Zadar, Split
7 the Dubrovnik
8 A. Dubrovnik
9 Q. Metkovic was not one of the companies of the 72nd Battalion, was
11 A. Metkovic was a military police platoon.
12 Q. Yes. And would I be right in saying it was a platoon under the
14 A. I don't know under whose command it was, but it was certainly a
16 Q. Right. So this part of your statement here is -- is wrong as
17 well. Is that right?
18 A. Well, I don't think it is actually complete.
19 Q. Thank you. The next name, Makarska. That wasn't one of the
20 companies of the 72nd, was it? That was also a platoon.
21 A. It wasn't a company. It was a platoon; you're right.
22 Q. And so would you agree your statement should be amended on that
23 matter as well?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. And in relation to Split, were there two companies
1 that made up the battalion from Split
2 company, and the other a general military police company?
3 A. I would add to that that there was also a traffic police company,
4 in addition to the two that you've mentioned.
5 Q. Yes. A traffic company. But I was interested in pointing out
6 that Split actually had two companies. Is that right?
7 A. I believe that it had three companies.
8 Q. And you include the traffic as part of it -- one of the Split
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. KAY: Can we just look at a organigram please. If the Court
12 could produce 2D06-0020.
13 Q. And I'm going to show you a diagram here - it can be put into
14 your language there for you; it's also in the English language - of the
15 commanding and reporting in relation to the 72nd Battalion.
16 Shall we just look at the bottom line first where we've seen the
17 company, first of all, the 1st Company, that was from Split. That is
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then the 2nd Company next to that from Split. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. 3rd Company, Zadar. Is that right?
23 A. True.
24 Q. Your company, the 4th, Sibenik. Is that right?
25 A. True, yes.
1 Q. 5th is the Sinj company. Is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. 6th, Dubrovnik
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And then we've got the 7th, which is the Knin company. Is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then we've got the traffic company, the 3rd one, from Split
9 That you wanted to tell me about?
10 Have I got the companies right there, for the companies that make
11 up the 72nd Battalion?
12 A. Yes, you've got them right.
13 Q. Thank you very much. You can see a box at the bottom which has
14 the criminal section of the military police next to the Sibenik 4th
15 Company, and there your name is, because you were part of the 4th. Is
16 that right, isn't it?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. And we can see a bold arrow going up, connecting you to the
19 criminal section of the military police where the chief was Major Milas.
20 Is that right?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. And would it be right to say that you were subordinated to
23 Major Milas?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. We know that the -- all the companies of the 72nd were
1 subordinated to Colonel Budimir who was the commander of the 72nd. Is
2 that right?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And that also included the criminal section under Major Milas.
5 Is that right?
6 A. Yes, I suppose so. That's right.
7 Q. But Major Milas actually reported on his work line to
8 Captain Eljuga, if you follow the arrow from his box who was part of the
9 military police administration. Is that right?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Yes. And he was the chief of the military police crime
12 department within the military police administration over which
13 General Lausic was the chief. Is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Thank you. We can see the other squads, platoons of the 72nd.
16 I'm just going to ask you some questions now about those boxes on the
17 second from top line, where Captain Eljuga was. And within the military
18 police administration next to Captain Eljuga's box, we see Major Juric,
19 Major Ivan Juric; is that right?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Is that the Major Juric we're talking about who came down to be
22 in the Knin region with the 72nd?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Thank you. And is it right that all those lines reported up to
25 General Lausic, who was the chief of the administration for the military
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. In your work, down at the bottom of the diagram again, we're
4 going back down to where you are at the foot of it, did your orders in
5 relation to your criminal police work come from Major Milas?
6 A. Yes, they did.
7 Q. And the system was that as a member of the criminal section of
8 the 72nd, you were attached to the 4th Company. Is that correct?
9 A. I was not attached. We were on the establishment of the
10 4th Company. The criminal section was on the establishment of the
11 4th Company.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may this document go into evidence,
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President. For the record,
16 I understand that this is organigram prepared by the Defence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's how I understand it as well.
18 Mr. Registrar.
19 MR. KAY: I hope there's nothing wrong with that.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D846.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D846, nothing wrong with that, but good to have it
22 on the record.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. KAY:
25 Q. Let's, then, have a look, as I know Your Honour likes to see it
1 in action, the reporting lines. I'd like us to look, first of all, at a
2 document, and I'm revising my cross-examination, Your Honour, in view of
3 my learned friend's earlier cross-examination.
4 MR. KAY: Document 65 ter 1002. It is P978 now. Exhibit P978.
5 Q. Mr. Simic, this is a document you looked at yesterday dated the
6 7th of August, 1995. And it concerns the 72nd and the 4th Company. And
7 on the 7th of August, this was send to Major Juric. And if we look at
8 the last page of the English - but it's on the same page of the Croatian
9 version - by your commander, Captain Mrkota. Do you see that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... see Captain Mrkota's name at
12 the bottom.
13 MR. KAY: If we can go back to the first page, please.
14 Q. And you'll notice that this is sent to Major Juric. And it's
15 information with regard to the implementation of military police tasks
16 pursuant to the OVP commander's order.
17 What does OVP stand for?
18 A. UVP is the military police administration. And OVP stands for
19 the military police department, or section ... I'm not sure.
20 Q. Thank you. There's an error in the way that it has been written
21 in the English where it has got O instead of U. It's UVP.
22 So this reporting line from Captain Mrkota, the commander of the
23 4th, was pursuant to the military police administration commander's
24 order, and that is General Lausic, isn't it, commander of the military
25 police administration?
1 A. That's right, yes.
2 Q. And so this report from Captain Mrkota to Major Juric, on his
3 tasks, is as a result of the military police administration commander's
4 order. Do you agree?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Thank you. We've no need to go further into the detail of that
7 because I note time is short.
8 MR. KAY: The next document I would like to look at, please, is
9 65 ter 2972.
10 Q. And this is a document dated the 22nd of August, 1995
11 send by you, Mr. Simic, on that date, from the 4th Company to the
12 military police administration crime investigation department, to its
13 chief, Boris Milas.
14 Do you see that?
15 A. I do, yes.
16 Q. Your name is on the second page of the English document.
17 MR. KAY: If the second page can be put onto the screen.
18 Q. And there you are. Do you recollect sending this document to
19 Mr. Milas?
20 A. I do. I remember that.
21 Q. Would it be right to say that this was a routine document that
22 you send him?
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. Just reporting to him on matters concerning the reception centre
25 in Sibenik. Is that right?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. KAY: Can we go to 65 ter 641 -- oh, can I make that an
4 exhibit, please, Your Honour.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number D847, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D847 is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. KAY: 65 ter 641, please.
10 Q. This is a document dated the 18th of August, 1995. It comes from
11 the 3rd Company, this time of the military police, the Zadar Company.
12 And it's sent by them to Major Milas, erroneously described in that draft
13 translation as a brigadier. And it's a report to him concerning people
14 in the collection centre. And if we just look at page 2 in the English
15 and page 2 in the Croatian document, you'll see it's signed by the head
16 of the crime police, Captain Babic.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And would it be right to say that he was in charge of the crime
20 police within the Zadar Company of the 72nd?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And like you sent your report to Major Milas, would you describe
23 this as being a routine report to him about a matter at the collection
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. KAY: May this be --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, let's first proceed with this document.
4 MR. KAY: May this be made an exhibit, please.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D848, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. D848 is admitted into
10 Mr. Kay I'm seeking your assistance. You earlier talked about
11 the report on prisoners of war. I think it is the first time that you
12 said is this a routine report.
13 MR. KAY: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You will remember that earlier there was some
15 discussion about collection centres and basketball grounds. I think it
16 was the same centre where there was the issue of five people being there,
17 80 people taken out whether it was one or --
18 Now, the document says that the full list of those detained is
19 attached. It's not part of the document. Is the attachment to that
20 document also available? Because it might shed some light not on the
21 issue you're raising but one of the issues we dealt with earlier today.
22 MR. KAY: If it had been there we would have uploaded it
23 obviously because -- it's from the Prosecution's 65 ter list and --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, is there any way to verify and to
25 check whether this would bring us any further in relation to the other
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I'll have -- I will have
3 to have someone check that the 65 ter number -- or, I mean, just because
4 it is from the Prosecution --
5 MR. KAY: Can I help -- sorry.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. KAY: The B/C/S version as I have just been told, the
8 Croatian version has all the names. It's the English language version
9 that does --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's not translated. We can check that, whether
11 it is already done.
12 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there is a practice often where there are
13 lists of names that those translating don't set out the whole list.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. KAY: [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: It is true that where the English translation is a
17 two-page document, the original is ten-page document, apparently.
18 MR. KAY: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your assistance, Mr. Kay.
20 MR. KAY: I think the Court will be able to look at the Croatian
21 attachment, probably serve its purposes. But if it does need further
22 work, perhaps the Court would let the parties know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think at least what we find is certainly a
24 lot of date of birth, and we'll have a look at it to see whether we need
25 further assistance from the parties to interpret that document.
1 MR. KAY: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. KAY: Thank you.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, do I that I can the document
5 with the attachment goes in as -- and the exhibit or ...
6 MR. KAY: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is how it was uploaded. Nevertheless,
8 the Chamber would highly appreciate if the translation is not covering
9 the complete document, that at least we are aware of that, so that not by
10 looking at the English translation with think that that's all what is in
11 evidence, but that there is more. And I do agree that lists of names
12 usually are not very helpful, but sometimes the titles in the columns may
13 assist us, first of all, in being aware that there is more; and, second,
14 to understand the originals.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour. May we look at 65 ter 2648.
17 Q. And this is a document, Mr. Simic, dated the 2nd of October,
18 1995. It's again from the Zadar Company. And it's from Captain Babic,
19 the head of the crime police of the Zadar Company. And it is send to the
20 72nd, crime investigation section, which is Major Milas. Is that right?
21 A. I wasn't really focusing on your question. Can you please repeat
23 Q. Sorry. Again, it's from the 3rd Company, Zadar. If you look at
24 to whom it is addressed, it is addressed to the 72nd crime investigation
25 section to the section chief, that's Major Milas. Isn't that right?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And I'm not interested in the content of the report because that
3 is not what I'm dealing with at this stage.
4 And you can see handwritten, if the Croatian version could be
5 brought down, please, so that we look at the handwriting on -- on the
7 That Major Milas has sent this to Captain Spomenko Eljuga who was
8 in charge of the crime police in the military police administration. Is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And also beneath that from the military police administration,
12 the name of Brigadier Biskic; is that right?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And on our organigram we looked at a moment ago, we know that
15 Brigadier Biskic is second in command to General Lausic of the military
16 police administration. Is that right?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. And do you agree that this shows the reporting line within the
19 72nd Military Police Battalion?
20 A. I do agree with that.
21 Q. And it's a document there that doesn't have to go to Colonel
22 Budimir who, at this time, was the commander of the 72nd. Is that right?
23 A. I believe so.
24 Q. The 72nd military police crime investigation section had a direct
25 line, that they could go up to the military police administration. Is
1 that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. KAY: Can we look -- may we make this an exhibit, please,
5 Your Honour.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D849, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D849 is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. KAY: Can we look at 65 ter 2170 Spomenko Eljuga?
11 Q. And we're now going to look at two documents from Major Milas
12 where he is reporting to the chief of criminal investigation,
13 Captain Eljuga, in the military police administration. All right,
14 Mr. Simic.
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. We see this document dated 31st of December 1995 from the
17 military police crime investigation section of the 72nd. That was
18 Major Milas. Is that right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And we see that this document is send to Major Eljuga in the
21 military police administration crime investigation department. Can you
22 see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just so that we look at the subject of it, on the second page in
25 the English, keeping the same page in the Croatian document, the subject
1 of this letter was a report on the work of the military crime
2 investigation police of the 72nd Military Police Battalion for the period
3 of 25th of December 1994 to the 25th of December 1995. And this document
4 is sent, as a report, to the military police administration. Is that
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And were you aware that each year the 72nd would file a full
10 report with the military police administration, detailing all their
11 activities and work for the previous year?
12 A. Yes, I was aware of that. That's just as we were producing a
13 yearly report for the battalion, so the battalion was doing the same for
14 the administration.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I don't see from where Mr. Kay
17 got the information that this document is going to the military police
18 administration. It's referred to the Croatian Army Split Military
19 District 72nd Military Police Battalion. It says military police crime
20 investigation section --
21 MR. KAY: It says it on page 1 in the English. Military police
22 administration, military police crime investigation department, chief,
23 Major Spomenko Eljuga, and we had established all that in evidence.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: My question as to whom it was addressed. I
25 believe I understood you to suggest that this document is going to the
1 military police administration.
2 MR. KAY: Yes.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm just trying to figure out from where that
4 -- I don't see that on --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Can you assist Ms. Mahindaratne.
6 MR. KAY: I think it is quite clear from the document, Your
7 Honour, what it says who it's to.
8 Q. Perhaps you can you help me here, Mr. Simic, is it correct that
9 this is addressed to the military police administration, military police
10 crime investigation department, Major Eljuga?
11 A. If I may clarify, the heading in the top left corner says:
12 "Croatian army, Split Military District. The 72nd Military
13 Police Battalion was territorially within the AOR of Split, and of course
14 it was sent by the 72nd MP Battalion, and it was sent to the Republic of
15 Croatia Defence Ministry, military police administration, military police
16 crime investigation department."
17 Q. Thank you. And if we can go to page 6 of the English.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, you have found it.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I apologise.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
21 MR. KAY: Page 6 of the English, which is page 5 of the Croatian
22 document, I believe, under the heading "Introduction." It's page 4 in
23 the Croatian document, yes, and I'm looking at the sentence at the foot
24 of the page in English; "at the beginning of a new work year and looking
25 back at 1995 ..."
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's in the middle of the page in Croatian, just
2 below the middle.
3 MR. KAY: Yes. It's the --
4 Q. Can you see where and pardon my language ability, pocetkom. I'm
5 doing my best. With that sentence there:
6 "At the beginning of a new work year and looking back at 1995,
7 we're happy to say both horizontal and vertical cooperation was
8 established between the KVP."
9 And by "KVP," we mean what?
10 A. That's the section of the crime investigation military police of
11 the battalion.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Or, rather, of the MP administration.
14 Q. Thank you. And the KVP service, what does that refer to there?
15 A. That's the service of the various companies, the crime
16 investigation military police section of the various companies.
17 Q. Would that be the duty service?
18 A. No, that is the MP crime investigation service, not the duty
20 Q. Thank you. The next one, KVP department. What does that mean?
21 A. My apologies. I was mistaken. The department of the crime MP is
22 of -- is part of the administration, whereas the section of the KVP is --
23 belongs to the --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't sure if the witness said
25 company or battalion.
1 MR. KAY:
2 Q. Perhaps can you tell us as to what those bodies refer to,
3 Mr. Simic. There may be some difficulties. If you can explain that
4 sentence to us, are you able to?
5 A. I can explain.
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. The respective chain of commands. The service of the crime
8 investigation MP was subordinated to the section which was subordinated
9 to the department of the military police crime investigation.
10 Q. Thank you very much. I don't need to go into that document any
12 MR. KAY: May this be made an exhibit, please, Your Honour.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D850, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D850 is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. KAY: The next document is 65 ter 2643.
18 Q. This is a document dated the 3rd of November from the 72nd
19 Military Police Battalion, military crime police department. That's
20 Major Milas. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And on that day, if we look to page 2 of the English, he sent
23 this report to the military police administration, crime police
24 department chief, Captain Eljuga. Is that right?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. And we can see that it's a supplement to the report for the month
2 of October 1995 and concerns deaths of HV soldiers. I have no need to
3 refer to it in any more detail, the last page, page 4 in the English is
4 signed by Major Milas, as you have already told us it was from him.
5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may this be made an exhibit, please.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D851.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D851 is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. KAY: Next document is 65 ter 1616.
11 Q. It's a document dated 5th of August, 1995 from the military
12 police administration, military police crime investigation department.
13 Can you see that, Mr. Simic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That was a yes, wasn't it?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. And this was sent, as we can see, to the military police
18 administration. Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that would be to the chief of the military police
21 administration, is that right, General Lausic?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Yes. And we can see that it's an operative report.
24 MR. KAY: If we turn to page 5 of the English. In the Croatian
25 version, that is page ...
1 It's headed: Forward command post, page 3 in the Croatian,
3 Q. This concerns the forward command post of the 72nd Military
4 Police Battalion. If we go to the second paragraph under there, can you
6 "Therein in the course of the 4th of August, 1995, work meetings
7 had been set up between all military police chiefs of the 72nd Military
8 Police Battalion in Zadar, Sibenik, and Sinj, with the Major Boris Milas,
9 chief of the 72nd Military Police Battalion ..."
10 That means the crime investigation police battalion. Is that
12 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with that.
13 Q. You know who Major Milas is, because you've told us already,
14 haven't you?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. That's all I needed you to confirm in relation to this document.
17 The rest of the document can speak for itself.
18 And we can see on the last page that this is signed by
19 Captain Eljuga of the police administration, as we know. Is that right?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Thank you very much?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, I'm looking at the clock and I noticed that
23 from the 45 minutes you've used until now 50.
24 MR. KAY: I had to field some objections which has lost me time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still speed that.
1 MR. KAY: I've only got three more documents to deal with, and I
2 shall deal with them expeditiously, if I may.
3 Thank you.
4 May that lost document --
5 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time Ms. Mahindaratne I ask you whether
6 you need -- you earlier talked about five questions whether it is still
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Still five.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Still five.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour. Sorry for being short as I'm
12 trying to get through it. May that document be made an exhibit, please,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number D852.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D852 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. KAY: Next document is 65 ter 1935. It's a large document
20 but I will deal with it very, very quickly.
21 Q. This is an report from the military police administration,
22 military crime police department as we know that is a Captain Eljuga. Is
23 that right?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Thank you. And this report, as we can see, written on the
1 document by hand, is signed by Brigadier Biskic on the 6th of November,
2 1995. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It's a report on the work of the military crime police.
5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that's all I need for these purposes. May
6 this document be made an exhibit.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D853, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D853 is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may we have -- P495 is already in
12 evidence, so I will skip that as that can be referred to later.
13 May we see 65 ter 3533, which will be the last document, Your
14 Honour. I'm grateful to the Court for the extra time.
15 Q. This document, Mr. Simic, is dated the 30th of August, 1995
16 it's from the military police administration, military police crime
17 investigation department; and as we know, the chief of that is
18 Captain Eljuga is that right?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And this is sent to the 72nd Military Police Battalion crime
21 investigation department, personally to the chief. It says
22 Brigadier Milas but we know it is Major Milas, and it concerns a
23 complaint in relation to the behaviour of HV troops and an UNCRO officer,
24 Brigadier Al Rodan. And we can see at the end -- on the second page of
25 the English that the 72nd is being required to expedite procedures for
1 operational and criminal investigation processing by Captain Eljuga. It
2 is underlined that last paragraph in the document in your language.
3 Can you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So this is an order from the military police administration
6 chief, Captain Eljuga down to the 72nd. There is another page attach
7 which is the complaint of the UNCRO commander.
8 MR. KAY: Your Honour I have no need to look at that as that is
9 not the exercise I'm conducting and the evidence is obviously there.
10 May this document be made an exhibit, Please.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D854, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D854 is admitted into evidence.
15 Thank you Mr. Kay.
16 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne your five questions.
18 Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
19 Q. Mr. Simic, you stated in cross-examination that civilian police
20 had the authority to use force to prevent the commission of crimes by
21 members of the HV.
22 Now, can you think any specific instance in which you know of
23 where civilian police had used force to apprehend or bring perpetrator of
24 the HV to your custody?
25 A. No. I don't have a specific case.
1 Q. Do you know of any factual situations where -- even if you can't
2 think of details where that has happened?
3 A. No, I don't.
4 Q. Now, was Major Boris Milas subordinated to Colonel Mihael Budimir
5 within the 72nd Military Police Battalion?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... who was Major Milas
8 immediate superior for his daily assignments?
9 MR. MISETIC: If we can get a clarification what daily
10 assignments means.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm referring to daily assignments of the
12 crime military police of the 72nd Military Police Battalion.
13 Q. Whom did he report to as his immediately superior on a daily
15 A. Mr. Eljuga, or rather, my apologies he would report to
16 Mihael Budimir on a daily basis or rather to the duty service about the
17 activities carried out in his section.
18 Q. Thank you. You referred to seeing Major Juric and Ante Glavan
19 visiting in the 4th Company, Sibenik, on one particular instance. And
20 you said that they were there probably for agreement.
21 Now what is the agreement that you were referring to that --
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record I'm referring to transcript at
23 page 55, line 1.
24 Q. You said that Major Juric and Ante Glavan was there to meet your
25 commander, Captain Mrkota, and you believed they were there for
1 agreement. Can you specify as to what the agreement was, if you are
2 aware of it?
3 A. I didn't say that it did indeed involve and agreement. I said
4 that I thought so, I believed so.
5 Q. What did you -- what was the agreement that you thought they were
6 there to entail [sic] to?
7 A. War agreement.
8 Q. Can you specify what do you mean by "war agreement"?
9 A. About the work of the military police or about the work in
10 general. I only make assumptions. I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you. My last question to you is, Mr. Simic, two question
12 from the Bench, you referred to an instances where members of the 7th
13 Guards Brigade had committed a crime, and you said that your crime police
14 department had trouble collecting information because the brigade or some
15 members of the brigade had withdrawn to barracks.
16 Now what was the difficulty in obtaining collection -- sorry,
17 collecting information regarding a crime or investigating a crime when a
18 unit had withdrawn into barracks?
19 A. The difficulty was the distance, and accessibility, nothing more.
20 MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I notice when
21 the witness has spoke about issue, that he mentioned the town from which
22 originate the brigade, so maybe it would be wise to ask him about it.
23 Because it didn't enter the transcript.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, he told, but it didn't enter the transcript.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Well, I don't intend to --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- yes, could you tell us where that -- where
2 that brigade came from?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that it came from Osijek
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That concludes my re-examination,
6 Mr. President. May I just point out -- it's not with regard to
7 re-examination but the Defence statement D840 that I believe is the
8 number which was tendered during cross-examination of -- on behalf of
9 Mr. Gotovina. One aspect Mr. Misetic probably could not address was
10 paragraph 2 of the statement where there was agreement that the -- that
11 he would address it in live testimony and now it is there and this is a
12 matter in fact the Court had already dealt with through this witness at
13 the beginning.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you're satisfy with the present position although
15 Mr. Misetic did not raise the issue himself is that.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I would say that that
17 paragraph should be excluded from the statement because it directly
18 contradicts the testimony, and since Mr. Misetic did not address it in
19 live testimony.
20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour I was of the position up until the end
21 here as well that you had addressed it with him directly and therefore
22 there was no need to go into this again, so I ask that it stays in the
24 JUDGE ORIE: So it stay s in the statement and the parties now
25 invite the Chamber to primarily consider the witness -- the testimony
1 that the witness has given in Court.
2 MR. MISETIC: Correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you wish.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And we will consider whether it should be taken out
6 or whether we can live with it. It is not of importance for this Chamber
7 but if it would ever come to an appeal from -- raised by whatever party
8 then of course it could create confusion.
9 We'll consider it but at least, among these parties, it's clear
10 what the status of that paragraph is.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have one question for you, very short
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE ORIE: You said that you did some courses when you took up
16 your new position. I see that you jointed the Ministry of Interior in
17 January 1991 and that in November 1991 you were transferred to the 72nd
18 Military Police Battalion.
19 You explained that the courses were about drugs abuse and
20 peacekeeping. In your statement, it reads that courses on investigation.
21 Two questions. The first: When you worked for the MUP, or even prior to
22 the MUP, did you receive any police training?
23 A. No, no, I didn't.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, drugs abuse, are you talking about
25 investigation of drug offences; or are you talking about drugs abuse?
1 A. I was referring to the crimes arising from drugs abuse and
2 generally, yes, from the drugs -- drug addiction.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you worked as a military crime police
4 officer. Having received - I leave apart your course on peacekeeping -
5 you were functioning as it -- in your position as a military crime police
6 officer with just an education, a course of drug abuse. Is that --
7 without any additional police training?
8 A. No, I didn't have any other training, and I carried out my line
9 of duty, in accordance to -- with my abilities and knowledge.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
11 Have the questions in re-examination raised any need for further
12 examination? If not, I would like to put one thing on the record. I
13 earlier said it was one-to-one in tendering documents that were already
14 in evidence. I was wrong.
15 Ms. Mahindaratne, you're winning because 967 and 968 were not yet
16 in evidence. I announced yesterday that they would be admitted into
17 evidence once the redacted versions would have been uploaded. That was
18 completed this morning, but I failed to establish that this completed the
19 admission into evidence. Therefore, 967 and 968 are admitted into
21 Mr. Simic, I'd like to thank you very much for having come to
22 The Hague
23 were put to you by the parties and that were put to you by the Bench, and
24 I wish you a safe trip home again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then for the parties, we adjourn, and we resume on
2 Monday, the 13th of October, 9.00 in this same Courtroom I, but not
3 adjourn until after what I failed to do I think it was the day before
4 yesterday, to thoroughly thank interpreters, transcribers all those who
5 are assisting us, including security, for the extra time which I did not
6 ask them whether it was granted but which I took. Apologies for that.
7 We stand adjourned.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of
10 October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.