Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10767

 1                           Wednesday, 29 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone, after quite a long period

 6     of time.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Mr. Hedaraly, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No protective measures?

15             MR. HEDARALY:  No protective measures.  The Prosecution would

16     like to call Witness 17, Milica Duric, via videolink from Belgrade.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could we establish whether the videolink

18     is functioning well.

19             One second, please -- well, she's gone.

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Ms. Duric, I suppose.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.  Can you see me well, Ms. Duric?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you hear me well in a language you understand?

Page 10768

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please turn up the volume

 2     a bit?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the volume be turned up a bit.

 4             Can you now hear me better, Ms. Duric?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now it's better.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.

 7             Ms. Duric, before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

 8     Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration, that you will speak

 9     the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  Now, therefore, I

10     would like to invite you to repeat the words --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will speak the whole truth.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now may I ask you to repeat the --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will, I will speak the truth.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But may I invite you to repeat the words

15     literally that I will speak.

16             I solemnly declare, would you please repeat that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Can you please repeat the words I'm speaking:

19     I solemnly declare.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand what he is

21     saying.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Ms. Duric, there are certain words that you

23     are invited to repeat.  Now I will say them first, and if you would then

24     repeat the words I am saying, yes?

25             I solemnly declare; would you please repeat that?

Page 10769

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's try it again.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're doing quite well.

 5             That I will speak the truth; could you repeat that as well.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will speak the truth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But could you please also repeat those words:

 8     That I will speak the truth.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole truth; could you please repeat that as

11     well.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth, as I know it, I

13     will say it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And nothing but the truth.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.  I won't

16     lie.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you very much.  Please be seated,

18     Ms. Duric.

19             Could I first be informed by the representative of the Registry

20     who is present in the room apart from the witness?

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] [Microphone not activated]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.

23             Now, Ms. Duric, questions will be put to you by, first, the

24     Prosecution, and then the Defence.  Try to listen carefully to the

25     questions, let the person who puts the first finish the question, and

Page 10770

 1     then please answer the question.  If you feel uncomfortable, if you do

 2     not fully hear the question, ask for it to be repeated.  If there's

 3     anything that bothers you, don't hesitate to raise the issue.

 4             You will now first be examined by Mr. Hedaraly.  If you look at

 5     your screen, you will see the person who puts the questions to you.

 6             Mr. Hedaraly, you may proceed.

 7                           WITNESS:  MILICA DURIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           [Witness testified via videolink]

10                           Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Duric.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Can you see me on the screen in front of you?

15        A.   I can see you.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please state your full name for the record.

17        A.   My first and last name; is that it?  My name is Duric, Milica.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please confirm that your date of birth is

19     4 January 1932?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can have D397 on the screen, please; and in

22     Belgrade, that is tab 1.  If we can go to the English, which is the first

23     sheet behind the green separator.

24        Q.   Now, Ms. Duric, do you remember giving a witness statement to the

25     Office of the Prosecutor on 2 April 1998?

Page 10771

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And if you look at the bottom right of the document that is shown

 3     to you, can you confirm that you placed that X there?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we can now have 65 ter 6020, please; and

 6     that's tab 2 in Belgrade, and the same thing with the English version.

 7        Q.   And do you also recall providing another witness statement to the

 8     Office of the Prosecutor on 23 September 2004?

 9        A.   Yes, I can.

10        Q.   And you will be shown the first page of the English version.  On

11     the bottom left, can you confirm that you were the one that wrote this

12     signature?

13        A.   Yes, I can.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  And, finally, if we can have P443 on the screen,

15     please, and that is tab 3 in Belgrade.

16        Q.   Now, Ms. Duric, do you recall providing a supplemental witness

17     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on 13 July 2007?

18        A.   Yes, I can.

19        Q.   And can you, once again, confirm that, the bottom left, you are

20     the one that placed that X there?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you have a chance to review these three

23     statements yesterday; and by that, I mean were they read back to you in a

24     language that you understand?

25        A.   Yes, I can understand.

Page 10772

 1        Q.   And were these statements read back to you yesterday?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And do these statements accurately reflect what you said to the

 4     Office of the Prosecutor in your discussions with them?

 5        A.   I didn't understand that.

 6        Q.   The statements that were read back to you, did that reflect what

 7     you said in the meetings with representatives of the Office of the

 8     Prosecutor.

 9        A.   This is a bit too fast for me.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- one second, Mr. Hedaraly.

11             Yesterday, you said that these statements were read back to you;

12     you remember?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all right.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you recognise the statements that were read

15     back to you as the statements you gave some ten years ago, and four years

16     ago, and last year?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  They --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  When you gave those statements ten years ago, four

19     years ago --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand what you're

21     saying.  You know, I did make these statements.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what was read back to you yesterday, was

23     that what you said during those interviews?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, they talked to me and I

25     talked to them, and it was all right.

Page 10773

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then it was put on paper.  What was then read

 2     to you yesterday, is that what they put on paper as your statements you

 3     have given over the last years.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  They were the same.

 5     They were just as I said them before, and they read it back to me

 6     yesterday.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What was read back to you and what you said

 8     during these interviews, was that in full accordance with the truth?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was all true.  Everything

10     they read back to me was true, and everything I said was true.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So if the same questions would have been put

12     to you today, you would give the same answers?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I gave all the answers.

14     Whatever they asked me, I answered.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if the same questions would be put you to

16     you today, you would give the same answers.  Is that correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think so.  I think I should

18     say the same things.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly may have some additional questions for

20     you.

21             Mr. Hedaraly.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  At this time, Your Honour, I would like to move

23     D397, 65 ter 6020, and P443 into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

24             MR. MISETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections on behalf of any of the Defence teams.

Page 10774

 1             Then D397, which was, until now, marked for identification, is

 2     admitted into evidence.

 3             Could you assign numbers, Mr. Registrar, to the other statements.

 4     65 ter 6020, would be?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P1003.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P1003 is admitted into evidence.  Then P443 had

 7     already a number assigned to it and is admitted into evidence.

 8             Ms. Duric, now and then, we have to deal with some matters which

 9     are not of great interest for you.  However, now Mr. Hedaraly will ask

10     you some more questions.  Please carefully listen to him, let him finish

11     the question, and then answer it, please.

12             Mr. Hedaraly.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Could I please read a summary of the witness's

14     evidence as --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact, I would prefer at this moment

16     to continue.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Okay.  No problem.

18        Q.   Ms. Duric, I will ask you some questions just to clarify, or

19     provide some information, either that is not in your statements or that

20     are clarifying items in your statements.  Is that understood?

21        A.   I understand.

22        Q.   Now my first question is:  You did not yourself see your husband

23     being pushed in the fire by Croatian soldiers.  Is that right?

24        A.   That's right, I did not see it myself.

25        Q.   And who told you that that had happened?

Page 10775

 1        A.   My mother-in-law and he were in the kitchen.  They stayed behind,

 2     while the rest of us, the seven of us, were in the cellar, in the

 3     basement.  We told them that they should go to the basement, too, but

 4     they said, "No, we won't.  It won't be too bad."  My husband was

 5     handicapped, and he said, "Well, I never served in any army, so just you

 6     go ahead.  Go to the basement, and we'll stay back in the kitchen."

 7        Q.   And she's the one that told you at a later stage what had

 8     happened to your husband.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.  I asked her, "What happened?  Where is my husband?"  And

10     she said, "We were in the kitchen, but they drove us out of the kitchen,

11     outside the house."  There were three -- there were three of them.  One

12     of them said, "You take this old woman and go to the end of the village,

13     and you just get into the fire, into your store."  He said he couldn't do

14     it, and then my mother-in-law walked across the yard when she heard this.

15     She said, "Please don't kill him.  He is a handicapped man.  He never

16     served in the army."

17             Then she went to the gate and looked behind, and she saw that

18     they pushed him into the fire.  He said he couldn't go into the fire.  He

19     didn't have any teeth so he couldn't say it easily, but they said, "You

20     have to go."  Then when she turned around and looked back, she saw that

21     they had pushed him into the fire from the door, from the doorway, and

22     then they shut the door behind him.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether your son, Mile, saw your husband

24     being pushed in the fire?

25        A.   I don't know where exactly he was.  I can't really tell you

Page 10776

 1     whether he saw this or not, but my mother-in-law told him just as she

 2     told me.

 3        Q.   And did you generally talk to your son, Mile, about the events

 4     described in your statement, that happened in those days in August 1995?

 5        A.   Well, when we met again, yes, we did discuss it.

 6        Q.   And what did he tell you that he saw?  What did he tell you about

 7     what he saw?

 8        A.   Well, he didn't tell me anything.  He saw the house burning and

 9     went up to the house.  And when he saw the house burning, he went back to

10     the other house that we have in the hills; and from that house, he went

11     to Belgrade.

12        Q.   Did he tell you whether he saw any Croatian soldiers around your

13     house?

14        A.   Yes, he did see them.  He told me he had seen them, but he also

15     said this old woman, this mother-in-law, she told him the parts that he

16     hadn't seen, but I did not see it myself.  I just heard her tell about

17     it.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, you know that your son testified in this court in

19     June 2008.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes, I know about that.

21        Q.   And did you watch his testimony in this court?

22        A.   Where?  Where would I watch it?  Where would I have watched it?

23        Q.   Did you watch a tape of the -- of his testimony on the

24     television?

25        A.   Oh, yes, we saw that.  I asked him how he faired in The Hague,

Page 10777

 1     and he told me, "I will not tell you anything about it because I have the

 2     tape, you know."  Then when we played the tape over the TV, I saw it all

 3     and heard it all, but he didn't talk to me about these matters.  I did

 4     ask him to tell me about it but he said, "No, no.  Instead, I have the

 5     tape.  Why don't you watch it?"

 6        Q.   And was anything that you saw on the tape inconsistent with your

 7     own memory of what had happened?

 8        A.   You mean in Mile's statement?  Well, there were quite a few

 9     things that I didn't remember.  I forgot a great deal.  You know, I'm an

10     old woman, illiterate; and I can only tell you as much as I know.

11        Q.   That's fine.  I'm asking you whether there was anything in there

12     that was inconsistent with what you knew as opposed to new facts you

13     didn't know?

14             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I am going to object.  I think it is a

15     very open-ended question.  I'm not sure the witness can understand what

16     specifically -- what specific portions of the testimony counsel is

17     referring to.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, of course, if it focuses on

19     specific matters, it could easily be understood as being leading.  So,

20     therefore, I think I have no problem in with starting with an open

21     question, but perhaps words like "inconsistent" might be a bit confusing.

22             Ms. Duric, was there anything, when you watched this tape, was

23     there anything your son told this Court of which you say, "Well, that

24     surprises me or my recollection is different"?  Was there anything that

25     you had difficulties in understanding that that is what he saw?

Page 10778

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were many things there.

 2     I should have said and told more, but I just couldn't.  When I saw

 3     yesterday the house and the place where my husband was burned, I just had

 4     my fill of it, and I feel the same today.

 5             Now, about what Mile said in the courtroom, well, you have to

 6     take a grasp of what he said.  Don't ask me about what he said.  I know

 7     what I said, and it's up to Mile to talk about what he said.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But, nevertheless, I will take you back for a second

 9     to what Mile said.  Was there anything in his statement which is not what

10     you think or what you observed that happened or what you have heard that

11     happened?  Is there anything in his statement compared to your

12     recollection which surprises you?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, there were, but don't

14     ask me about him.  I know this and that, but I might -- I'm afraid I

15     might be mistaken in what I say.  Whatever he said is how things

16     happened.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I still do ask you about it.  You said

18     there were --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand what you're

20     saying.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You said --

22             MR. HEDARALY:  Sorry, Your Honour, if I may just interject.  With

23     the word "surprised," it may refer to additional facts as opposed to

24     inconsistency.  I don't know if you want to explore both.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, I do not know how the word

Page 10779

 1     "inconsistency" is translated, but can I tell that you 80 per cent of the

 2     world population would not understand the word "consistent" and

 3     "inconsistent."

 4             So I'm trying to bring it down to less Latin.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  I understand.  If I may suggest, if there was

 6     anything in that was not --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please take over.  You may continue.  I think the

 8     guidance and the language of the questions may assist you.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

11        Q.   When you watched your son's testimony on the tape, was there

12     anything that he said you felt was not the truth?

13        A.   Everything he said was the way things happened.  He is a man, and

14     younger at that.  He understood the way things happened, and when I was

15     listening to him talking about it, I was thinking how everything happened

16     the way he recounted, the way it he said it happened.

17        Q.   Is there --

18             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Let me just object one more time.  This can be

21     asked in a non-leading way about the substance of whatever the testimony

22     is.  But to ask a witness in court to simply comment and confirm

23     generally prior testimony, I think is it improper.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether improper or not, I think, Mr. Hedaraly, we

25     should now go into more detail; and, of course, the generalities might

Page 10780

 1     not in every way assist us.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  Well, to the extent that she is then going to be

 3     asked in cross-examination whether -- and impeach her son's testimony, I

 4     think it is fair for me to ask her, first, if she thinks this is

 5     consistent.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not saying that your unfairly dealing with the

 7     matter, but I invite you to perhaps seek on specific points whether the

 8     general answer still applies.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I keep hearing these words, and I

10     don't understand you.  I don't know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Don't worry about that.  Mr. Hedaraly may have some

12     further specific questions.

13             Mr. Hedaraly.

14             MR. HEDARALY:

15        Q.   When your son testified about your husband being pushed in the

16     fire, was that consistent to what your mother-in-law had told you?

17             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, again, I'm going to object.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It does tally, it does.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer follows already from the previous parts

21     of the testimony, I would say.  So to that extent, it doesn't add very

22     much.

23             Let's try to avoid as much as possible discussions and debates

24     which might confuse the witness.

25             Ms. Duric, we'll try to put clear questions to you and not

Page 10781

 1     confuse you.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  I will move on, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Ms. Duric, let me ask you briefly about Sava Bucic's house that

 4     you described in your first statement.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  Just for the Court, that's D397 at page 3, the

 6     first paragraph.

 7        Q.   And, Ms. Duric, you said that on the Saturday, you saw the house

 8     of Sava Bucic being hit by a grenade.  Can you tell the Court exactly

 9     what you saw, please.

10        A.   That's what I saw.  One grenade hit Sava Bucic's house which was

11     across from mine, and the other shell landed against the window of

12     another house and ended up in the room and on the bed.  Those were two.

13     The two houses were one on one side, in relation to my house, and the

14     other on the other side.

15        Q.   And do you remember what time of the day on the Saturday that

16     happened?  Was it in the morning, or in the afternoon, or in the evening?

17        A.   In the evening, around 5.00.

18        Q.   Let me now who have to the day that your husband was killed and

19     your husband was burned, the 6th of August, in your 2004 statement.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  For the court, that's P1003, paragraph 4.

21        Q.   I will read it to you, and you state:  "My mother-in-law and my

22     husband had stayed behind in the kitchen because they didn't want to go

23     in the cellar with us.  When I told my husband to come to the cellar, he

24     replied, "No one will touch me, I am an invalid, and there has never been

25     any weapons in my house."

Page 10782

 1        A.   That's how it happened.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... "stay in the cellar and take

 3     care of the child."

 4             Now my question for you is:  Did your husband come down to the

 5     cellar at any time on that day?

 6        A.   No, he did not at all.

 7        Q.   And in your third statement, in paragraph 4, you stated that your

 8     son, Mile, came to the house on that day.  My question for you is:  When

 9     he came, did he come down to the cellar where you and the others were?

10        A.   He -- no, he didn't.  We had lunch there and then went down into

11     the cellar, and he went away somewhere.

12        Q.   Now I want to move forward to when you came out of your house.

13             Can you tell the Court what you saw when you came out of the

14     house?

15        A.   There was seven of us in the cellar.  When we got out, all but

16     the three of us went away.  As we got out, we saw a soldier standing

17     outside the house.  I told him, "Why did you set my house on fire?  We

18     didn't deserve such treatment.  None of our men were in the army or had

19     weapons."  The soldier answered, "I didn't set it on fire."  Then I asked

20     him, "Well, who did?"

21             Can I go on talking?

22        Q.   Yes, go ahead.

23        A.   I said, "There were no weapons in my house and no soldiers

24     either."  Next to me was my neighbour Draga.  I asked the soldier, "What

25     did you do to my husband and mother-in-law who is 100 years old?"  He

Page 10783

 1     said, "We didn't see anyone."  Then, as I was on my way through the

 2     corridor, he was standing in the doorway and he wouldn't let me out to

 3     see where the two of them were.  So I went back down the staircase and

 4     went through all the rooms, three rooms, finding no one.  I didn't find

 5     anyone in the kitchen either.  There was nobody in the house, and the

 6     house was already on fire.  There was smoke everywhere.

 7             So I went out again to where my neighbour, Draga, was and the

 8     soldier was.  I asked him again where were my mother-in-law and husband,

 9     and he said, "Well, there is nobody."  My neighbour -- my neighbour,

10     Draga, said, "But you set my house on fire as well."  He said, "Well,

11     there is this house on fire that has had a haystack there."  She said,

12     "Well, I don't have a haystack."  But her husband did serve in the

13     military service, but he wasn't in the army either.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, there's also a reference to the

15     neighbour you just mentioned, Draga, asking the Croatian soldier why he

16     was burning the house, and he told her, "You burned Kijevo so now we burn

17     your house."  Is that right?

18        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

19        Q.   Did he specifically say, "You burned Kijevo," or did he refer to

20     someone else?

21        A.   Well, I don't know if he saw it.  He said, "Your son set fire --

22     set my house on fire and Kijevo, too."  She, in reply, told him that she

23     didn't have a son.  But she did have a son, although he was ill, and he

24     never served military service, and he wasn't in the army.  She just said

25     that she -- at that point, she just said that she didn't have a son.

Page 10784

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And I now want to move to the remains of your husband

 2     that you found and buried; and, obviously, this may be difficult, but I

 3     have to ask you those questions.  So if at any point you need or feel

 4     like you need a break, feel free to ask the Judges.

 5             So my first question for you is:  How did you collect these

 6     remains?

 7        A.   I find it very hard to talk about it and the same was true

 8     yesterday.

 9             As we left the soldier, we went up toward the other house to see

10     whether my husband was there.  There, we came across three soldiers.  I

11     asked them where the two of them were, and they replied, "We didn't see

12     anyone."  Soon, my mother-in-law appeared, and I asked her, "Mother,

13     where is Sava?"  She said, "He stayed behind."

14             Then one of the soldiers told the other to follow that old woman

15     to the village.  That's what she told me.  Then he said to my husband,"

16     Go into the fire."  He said, "Don't push me into the fire," but he was

17     toothless, it was hard.  Then they said, "Go into the fire."

18             My mother-in-law said, as she turned back, that she saw the

19     soldiers pushing him into his workshop.

20        Q.   And then, in your statement, you talk about later on how you and

21     your mother-in-law collected your husband's remains and buried them.  My

22     question for you is:  How did you physically collect the remains?  Did

23     you put them in a bag with your hands, with a shovel?

24        A.   We were sifting through the ashes with our hands.  We found some

25     bones and half a skull, and he was strong-boned.  He must have been --

Page 10785

 1     something must have been sprayed over him, some liquid, because he had

 2     burned through and through.  I took the ashes and bones that remained,

 3     placed them in a cup, and then I took some of his clothes, and I wrapped

 4     the bones into these clothes.

 5        Q.   And did --

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  If we could have P442 on the screen, and I don't

 7     have a copy in Belgrade for the court reporter.  Since I'm going to read

 8     the relevant portions, I don't think it matters that much.

 9             If we could go to the middle of the first page when it's up on

10     the screen.

11             In the middle of the page, this is the -- Ms. Duric, I'm going to

12     read just a portion of the analysis that was done at the exhumation when

13     your husband's remains were exhumed.  Under the heading "Clothes," it is

14     sad that there were two men's shirts and a pair of black cloth trousers

15     that were with the remains.

16             Is that consistent with your recollection of what you buried?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  And if I can now have P44 --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did put a lot more clothes than

20     what is said here.

21             MR. HEDARALY:

22        Q.   Can you tell us what else you put in?

23        A.   Well, I can't remember now.  I put sandals or trainers, and then

24     I placed his suit there.  It was a jacket and a pair of trousers and a

25     cap, along with the bones, and all of it was placed into a package.  We

Page 10786

 1     took the package to the cemetery where we dug a grave and buried it all.

 2        Q.   Let me now show you P441 which is a report of the exhumation that

 3     took place last year.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  That is tab 5 in Belgrade.

 5        Q.   I want to show you, Ms. Duric, the last three photographs.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  That will be pages 6, 7, 8 in e-court.

 7        Q.   If you could just spend a few seconds on each of them and look at

 8     these three pictures.  Can you tell me if this is also consistent with

 9     the remains that you dug up and that you buried?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  That's how they are.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now there have been suggestions in this case that

12     your husband is still alive.  So I have to ask you the following

13     question, and I don't mean to offend you by it, but I must ask it because

14     of these suggestions.

15             Is your husband alive today?

16             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, again, we went through this before.

17     I'm going to object on putting matters as to what the Defence is going to

18     argue in cross-examination on direct examination.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  It's on the record.  I'm entitled to ask about it.

20             MR. MISETIC:  I don't believe it's on the record, so if

21     Mr. Hedaraly wants to cite the transcript.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  I have a filing from the 8th of November 2007,

24     which is --

25             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, that is not part of the trial in this

Page 10787

 1     case, and that is a completely separate issue regarding a motion as to

 2     what may have happened.  We have evidence that that document is not in

 3     evidence, and so --

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  It was presented to the trier of fact who is going

 5     to decide on this, so I think I'm entitled to explore it.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, there was nothing presented in terms

 7     of how he is presenting it.  It was a motion prior to trial, asking for

 8     additional information, so that we could conduct an investigation.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  That's not what it said.

10             MR. MISETIC:  That is it not part of the evidence in this case.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could have I a copy of it --

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Of course.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- at this moment, and let's try to avoid this in

14     the presence of this witness.

15             Could I have a look at it.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  It is paragraph 7, and I have highlighted a

17     portion, just for everyone's reference.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Duric, this Chamber was --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- was informed, quite a while ago, that some people

22     would think that your husband would be still alive.  Could there be any

23     truth in that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how could that be true when

25     he was set on fire?  He was pushed into the fire.

Page 10788

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand what the

 2     witness said, the last bit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last few words you spoke,

 4     because the interpreters could not hear you well.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you nothing about it.

 6     How could he be alive when he was burned?  How could that be that way?

 7     Who said such a thing, that he might still be alive?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we are mainly interested in hearing your

 9     answer to that.  So do I understand that any suggestion that your husband

10     may have died not on that 6th of August but at a later time, that's also

11     something you would not agree with.  Is that right?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Things happened the way I said that

13     they happened.  I don't know who you're listening to.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, this sufficiently covers the issue?

15             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.  Madam Usher, could you take this back to

17     Mr. Hedaraly.

18             MR. HEDARALY:

19        Q.   Ms. Duric, let me move to another topic.  In your supplemental

20     statement of 2007, at paragraph 7, you stated that four men came to your

21     house on the Monday and asked you why your daughter was still there, and

22     how other policemen came the next day, again asking about your daughter.

23             Now, can you tell the Court what these men told you about your

24     daughter and what you should do with her?

25        A.   We were just about to start having lunch when the four of them

Page 10789

 1     arrived.  One of them was a policeman and three were soldiers.  The

 2     policeman asked me, "Whose little girl is this?"  I said, "Mine."  He

 3     said, "Are you sure that she's yours?"  I said, "Of course," and my

 4     mother-in-law also confirmed.  Then the policeman asked, "Why did you

 5     stay behind with your children here?  Why didn't you follow them, too?"

 6             I said, "Where should go to?  Nobody invited me anywhere."  Then

 7     I said, "Mostly my grandchildren left."  He said, "Don't keep your child

 8     in the house.  Take her away."  I said, "Where?"  Then he said, "Well,

 9     you can take her up so the shrubbery.  Your house was set on fire.  Then

10     you should take her to the other house you have where nobody will be

11     looking for her."  But you have to know that they stole everything they

12     could, apart from burning it.

13             Then he said, {Take her to the burned house and hide her there in

14     the corner."  Of course, at the time, I was staying in somebody else's

15     house because I didn't have a house of my own.  They talked to us there

16     and then they stole the property from this other house.  The owners were

17     away, abroad.  Then one of the soldiers looted and took everything, and

18     then they went away.

19             The following day, again, we were about to have a meal, when they

20     showed up once more.  But not the same from the day before.  They asked

21     me, "Where is the little girl who was in this house?  Then we said,

22     "There was no little girl here."  But as I saw the four of them arrive, I

23     said to Milena, "Come on, Milena, you should hide behind the door there

24     and do not show your head."  We actually hid them in the pantry.  Then

25     this man, he was rummaging through some tools there next to the pantry

Page 10790

 1     and next to the pantry door, but then he went away.

 2             So they were asking me about this little girl and where she

 3     was --

 4        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt.  I just wanted to clarify one thing.

 5     Your daughter, Milena, was born in 1971, is that right?  When you are

 6     talking about your little girl, is that what your a talking about?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And do you know why these soldiers told to you hide your

 9     daughter?

10        A.   I don't know.  I don't know why they said that.  That soldier

11     told me, and he was with a policeman, he told me that I shouldn't keep

12     the child in the house but that I should hide her, and I said, "Where

13     would I hide her since most of the house in the village were burned?"  He

14     said, "You should not keep her in your home at all."

15             There was shrubbery beyond the house, and then I took her by her

16     hand.  She wasn't a little girl, she was a full-grown girl.  We hid in

17     the bushes there, but they observed us and they fired shot at us.  We ran

18     away from the shrubs, across the hill, but they were firing at us.  We

19     went all around and came back to the house.

20             There was shooting everywhere.  We had great problems with them.

21     There were many more problems, but I didn't explain them all.  I just

22     didn't have the time to, but that's the whole truth, as I said it.

23        Q.   And based on what you knew at the time, do you have yourself an

24     idea why they suggested that they hide your daughter?

25             MR. MISETIC:  Objection, Your Honour, I think that calls for

Page 10791

 1     speculation based on what she knew, and also foundation.  What she knew

 2     about what?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You have to explore any basis of knowledge before

 4     putting this question to the witness, Mr. Hedaraly, and I wonder whether

 5     it would not easily result in speculation rather than in --

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  It may, Your Honour, and I'm trying to --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I see what you're trying.

 8     At the same time, there is a high risk of speculation here, in view of

 9     your earlier questions, because they didn't tell the witness.  So,

10     therefore, perhaps the best way of asking it is whether, if they didn't

11     tell her and when she said she didn't know, whether there's anything that

12     she knew about which could give any further information as to the reasons

13     why they suggested this, because there are not many sources of knowledge

14     left over.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Ms. Duric, is there anything that you knew that could give --

17     that gave you any further information as to the reasons why the soldiers

18     suggested that you hide your daughter?

19        A.   Well, I don't know, but we, the women, we suggested this, because

20     they had raped many of the women.  There were young girls as well.  They

21     raped them.  There is no manner of thing that they didn't do.  That's

22     what we were -- that's what we meant, but they didn't say why or how.

23        Q.   And just to be clear on that, you didn't yourself know of any

24     specific rapes that had taken place in the area?

25        A.   Well, there were, but not in our village.

Page 10792

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I have to, for the record, make an

 2     objection, again, that if counsel went into the topic and then at the end

 3     puts to the witness that she knows of no such incidents, I wonder what

 4     the point of the exercise was, and I object to it for the record.  It's

 5     prejudicial and has no probative value if counsel believes at the end

 6     that the witness has no such information regarding rapes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  That's not what I said.  I said she knew of

 9     general rapes that occurred, and my question was:  Do you yourself know

10     of any specific ones in the area that you knew of?

11             MR. MISETIC:  What's the difference.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.  Let's move on, Mr. Hedaraly.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  I was done with that topic.

14        Q.   Ms. Duric, the last topic I want to explore with you is an

15     incident that you told us -- you told the Prosecution about during the

16     proofing yesterday.  It's an incident that happened about eight days

17     after your husband was killed when some Croatian soldiers came to your

18     house.

19             Can you please tell the Court what happened when those soldiers

20     came?

21        A.   I didn't understand what you asked me.

22        Q.   Sure.  Did some Croatian soldiers come to your house

23     approximately eight days after your husband was killed?

24        A.   Yes, they did.

25        Q.   And can you tell the Court what those soldiers did, when they

Page 10793

 1     came?

 2        A.   Well, they did all sorts of things.  They came to my house.  I

 3     was in a room which hadn't been completely burned down.  I had a record

 4     player there, and a picture, Mile's picture, on the wall.  They asked me,

 5     "Whose picture is this?  And I said, "That's my son."  They said, "Where

 6     is this son?"  I said, "He is in Belgrade.  He is working there."

 7             He said, "Well, I'm going to slit this picture," and then he

 8     opened the drawer and said, "Get all these pictures, put them in a bag,"

 9     or something.  He was holding a gun against my chest, and he said, "Well,

10     I will be back again tomorrow."  You see, they were looking for things,

11     they were picking things, and he said, "I'll be back tomorrow, and if I

12     find you still here, I will kill you right here on the spot."

13             Well, then I started crying and I collected all these things, and

14     I took it beyond the house and threw it away in some shrubs.

15             They came again the next day, they found me there, and then he

16     asked me to go to my house so that he can check whether I had removed all

17     the things from the house as he had told me and I had.  I said, "Well,

18     you shouldn't really ill treat me.  You burned my house, you thrown my

19     husband into a fire, you have done all these things, and there was not a

20     single military man in my house.  I had nothing in the house, no weapons,

21     no hand-grenades, nothing at all."

22        Q.   And my final question for you is:  When I asked whether they were

23     Croatian soldiers, were they wearing a Croatian army uniform?

24        A.   You know, they took turns or, actually, they changed.  One day

25     they would be a soldier and then the next day they would be civilians.

Page 10794

 1     We noticed that.

 2        Q.   I'm talking specifically about that soldier that came and asked

 3     you to burn the picture and others.  Was he wearing an army uniform?

 4        A.   Yes, he was a soldier.

 5        Q.   I have no more questions for you, Ms. Duric; some other lawyers

 6     may.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, that completes the Prosecution's

 8     examination.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

10             Ms. Duric, before Defence counsel will ask you some questions, I

11     would like to inquire how much time they would need, also in view of

12     breaks to take.

13             Mr. Misetic.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I would say about an hour and a half.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. KAY:  I have no questions, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  No questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Ms. Duric, we need more than an hour for further questions.  Do

21     you think you're able to continue at this moment?  We would then take a

22     break in 20 minutes from now, approximately, and then after the break,

23     continue.  Do you feel good enough to start answering questions that will

24     be put to you by other lawyers, or would you rather, first, have a break?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's up to you, but it would be a

Page 10795

 1     good idea to have a break now.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll keep a close eye, Mr. Misetic, on

 3     whether one and a half hour would be too much to continue, not to say to

 4     take less time, but whether we could do it in one stretch or whether we

 5     have, I would say, two times 45 minutes.

 6             Yes.  We will first have a break, Ms. Duric, and then after the

 7     break we'll see whether we can finalise or whether we would take another

 8     break before we finally would conclude your testimony.

 9             We'll now have a break of 25 minutes, approximately, and we'd

10     like to see you back after that.

11             For the record, I make one correction --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... is that 65 ter

14     number 06020, which was assigned number P1003, should have been assigned

15     P1004.  So, therefore, the exhibit number is hereby corrected.

16             We will have a break and resume at 20 minutes to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  May I invite the parties to abstain from any

20     unnecessary interventions.  You understand why I'm asking this.

21             Ms. Duric, questions will now be put to you by Mr. Misetic.

22     You'll see him on your screen.  Listen carefully to his questions and

23     then give your answer, please.

24             Mr. Misetic.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 10796

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

 2        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Duric.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   I'd first like to ask you a few questions about the statement you

 5     gave last year, which is in 2007, and is marked in evidence as

 6     Exhibit P443.

 7             Do you recall the persons who interviewed you in 2007?

 8        A.   I don't know who interviewed me.  What do you mean?

 9        Q.   Well, was one of the persons that interviewed you in 2007 the

10     same person that was asking you questions this morning on behalf of the

11     Office of the Prosecutor?

12        A.   I don't understand you.

13        Q.   Do you recall the face of the gentleman who asked you questions

14     yesterday and asked you questions this morning?  Do you remember who did

15     that yesterday and today?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   Do you recall meeting with him last year as well, in 2007?

18        A.   Well, I can't.  I don't really remember that; I forgot.

19        Q.   In that statement, in 2007, at paragraph 4, this is your third

20     statement, and this was the first time in your third statement that you

21     mentioned going to visit your son, Mile, on the mountain on both the

22     Friday and Saturday of Operation Storm.

23             My question to you is:  Did the person that interviewed you in

24     2007 talk to you about the fact that your son had testified or told the

25     Office of the Prosecutor that you had gone up to visit him on the

Page 10797

 1     mountain on the 4th and the 5th of August?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  When you said that in your statement, that you had gone up

 4     to visit your son on the mountain, is that because the Prosecutor or the

 5     investigator had confronted you with the fact that your son had made this

 6     claim in his statements to the Office of the Prosecutor?

 7        A.   Well, I said that I went there on two days.  He was looking after

 8     the sheep there, and I went to clean up the shed, and then I saw him or I

 9     didn't see him.  It would depend, because I had to go back home, take

10     care of the things at home.  He would stay back minding the sheep, and

11     then sometimes he would just bring the sheep down.  Then I told him that

12     war had broken out and that he should really flee and let the sheep be.

13        Q.   Okay.  My question to you is very specific:  Is it -- is the

14     reason that you mentioned this for the first time -- is the reason that

15     you mentioned these trips to see your son on the mountain, that you

16     mentioned it for the first time in your third statement to the Office of

17     the Prosecutor, is that because the Prosecutor and investigator told you,

18     at that interview in 2007, that your son had brought this issue up in his

19     witness statements to the Prosecution?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you understand the question, Ms. Duric?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't really understand it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see whether we can clarify this.

23             Ms. Duric, approximately one year ago, a little bit over one year

24     ago, you were interviewed for the third time; you remember?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember that.

Page 10798

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, that was the first time that you said something

 2     about your son, Mile, in the mountains and that you went to see him.  Do

 3     you remember that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how it was.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, when, during this interview, what did the

 6     persons who interviewed you, what did they say?  Did they say, "Could you

 7     tell us about where your son was"; or did they say to you, "Your son told

 8     us that you went to see him in the mountains"?

 9             Which of the two, if any, was the case?  Did they tell you what

10     your son had told them?  Do you understand my question?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't understand.  What do

12     you mean?  What did he say?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, when you were interviewed last year, did they

14     tell you what your son had told them about you going up in the mountains;

15     or did they not tell you what your son had said about it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand again.  What do

17     you mean, "the Prosecutor"?  Well --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Last year when you are interviewed, questions were

19     put to you; you remember?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who put questions to me?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Last year, you remember that you gave a statement, a

22     little bit over one year ago, July last year.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I made a statement.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, in the summer of last year, yes.

25             Now, you were asked questions and you gave answers about your

Page 10799

 1     son, yes, your son, Mile; you remember?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, when they were asking about your son, did they

 4     tell you at that time what your son had told to them?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what my son told them.

 6     I just know what I told them.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And they did not tell you what your son had

 8     told them?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, I noticed that you were on your feet,

11     but not any longer.

12             Mr. Misetic.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Now, you were asked questions this morning, Ms. Duric, that he

15     said some things in his testimony to this Trial Chamber that you didn't

16     remember.  What things did he say that you didn't remember?

17        A.   I don't remember.  I don't know.

18        Q.   Okay.  In the first statement you gave in 1998, on page 2 at

19     paragraph 1, you say that on Saturday, the 5th of August, the first thing

20     you remembered is the shelling of the Plavno area.  "My family and I were

21     too afraid to leave our homes."

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Then, in your 2007 statement, which was last year, you said you

24     went on both days, the 4th and 5th, you went up to the mountain to see

25     your son.

Page 10800

 1             Now, we've established with your son that he was about three and

 2     a half kilometres --

 3        A.   Well, didn't you hear what I said?  I went there every morning to

 4     clean the --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  A portion was missing of

 6     the transcript.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then I would hurry back home

 8     because there was work to do, but I went to visit him everyday.  I went

 9     there every morning, but whether I saw him or not, that depended.

10             MR. MISETIC:

11        Q.   Okay.  I think maybe my question needs to be a little clearer.

12     I'm not talking about the months that you and your son would be up on the

13     mountain during the summertime.

14             I'm asking you specifically about the -- the first two days of

15     Operation Storm, meaning the 4th of August and the 5th of August, did you

16     go up to the mountain to see your son on those -- either of those two

17     days?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes, I did.

19        Q.   And so my question to you is that, in 1998, you said that because

20     of the shelling, you and your family were afraid to leave your house; but

21     in 2007, and again today, you say you went and walked three and a half

22     kilometres in each direction to go see your son.

23             So my question is:  Were you afraid and unwilling to leave your

24     house; or did you go, walk three and a half kilometres in each direction

25     to visit your son?

Page 10801

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Let me ask -- let me ask it a different way.

 3             When you said in 1998 that on the 5th of August, because of the

 4     shelling -- sorry, on the 5th of August that you and your family were too

 5     afraid to leave your homes, was that not the truth?

 6        A.   It is the truth.  This man, my husband, was not very well.  He

 7     was handicapped, so we invited him to come along and leave the house when

 8     everybody else left, but he said, "I'm handicapped and I didn't have any

 9     soldiers here, nor any ammunition."  So we remained there because of him.

10     We didn't want to leave him there, and did he not want to go.  So how

11     could I leave him, handicapped as he was?  I decided to stay, whatever

12     may happen.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, if you wouldn't mind.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, please, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Duric, the questions that Mr. Misetic put to you

16     are because he does not fully understand your different statements.

17     Approximately ten years ago, you said, "We were too afraid to leave our

18     house."  Then you also said one year ago that you, and you repeated that,

19     I think, today, is that you went up to the mountains to see your son.

20             Now, what Mr. Misetic finds difficult to understand is that, on

21     the one hand side, you said, "We were afraid to leave the house"; but you

22     also said that you'd go up to the mountains three and a half kilometres,

23     and that, of course, you need to leave your home to go up to the

24     mountains.

25             Could you explain to us what made you decide to go up to the

Page 10802

 1     mountains, whether you were not too afraid to go there, as you told

 2     during your interview ten years ago.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After Storm, I never went to that

 4     house up there; the same was true for Mile.  When the house was burnt

 5     down, he pulled out and left.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But during Storm, when there was still shelling,

 7     where you said you were afraid to leave your home, were you not afraid to

 8     go up to the mountains to see Mile when there was shelling?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went, yes, because earlier on,

10     the war started and the shooting.  But when the house was set on fire, I

11     no longer went up there, neither did Mile.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And you were not too afraid, once the shelling had

13     started, to go up the mountain and see Mile.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It started before.  All of it

15     started before the house was burned.  I went to see him, and he said that

16     he wouldn't go anywhere, that he would stay at home, and that's how it

17     was on that day.

18             On the following day, I went up there again, and entreated him

19     and said, "Mile, nobody is left there anymore but the four of us in the

20     village."  Only the four of us elderly were left in the village.  So he

21     heard that and then there was soldiers up there.  The army was up there

22     as well.  They were calling him to join, but then he wouldn't, so he went

23     away on his own.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So you were not too scared to go up the mountains,

25     even though the shelling had started already?

Page 10803

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the shooting started up all

 2     the way from Grahovo and then around Knin, it all became so terrible that

 3     I no longer went up there.  But they came down to Knin quite quickly.  It

 4     didn't take them long to reach that area, up around that shed.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic will now put further questions to you.

 6             Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Ms. Duric, let me take you back to an answer you just gave to the

 9     Presiding Judge.  You said, when you went up to see Mile, you told him

10     that:  "Only the four of us elderly were left in the village.  So he

11     heard that, and then there was soldiers up there.  The army was up there

12     as well.  They were calling him to join."

13             When you refer to the army there, you're referring to the Serbian

14     army.  Correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the Serbian army was calling Mile to join them; is that what

17     happened?

18        A.   Well, they did.  They were.  But he didn't think that he was

19     going to leave at all.  That's why he didn't join them.  They left

20     earlier on.  They called him to join them, but he said, "No, I will stay

21     here."  But then when he saw that the end was nearing, he decided that he

22     had to leave as well.

23        Q.   And did he leave with the Serbian army?

24        A.   No, no.  He went on his own.  Well, I don't know.  Don't ask me

25     about him.  There was one from Strmica, and I don't know his name.  So he

Page 10804

 1     went with two of them, one of whom I knew and the other one I didn't know

 2     who he was or where he came from, so there were three of them.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  From the question, can we clarify the word "join"

 5     or should I do it in redirect.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you should do it in redirect.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  If Mr. Hedaraly is concerned, I mean joined as in

 9     joined up with the --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same, time the time-frame is not

11     perfectly clear yet, at least not specifically, I think.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. MISETIC:

14        Q.   Mrs. Duric, when was this when the Serbian army was calling Mile

15     to join them?  Do you remember the date?

16        A.   Well, I don't remember.  Don't ask me about Mile.  Why don't you

17     ask me about my statement, and then I will tell you because I know what I

18     said.  I don't know this thing about Mile, but Mile gave his statement

19     and whatever he said in his statement is true.  I asked him how it was in

20     The Hague, and he said, "I will give you a tape and then you watch it,

21     rather than me tell you about it."  So I watched it and Mile didn't tell

22     me anything about it.

23             MR. MISETIC:  I don't know if Your Honour wishes to follow up on

24     that, on the date.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You earlier said that they were calling Mile to join

Page 10805

 1     them.  Were you present when this happened?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there, and then they stayed

 3     behind because I went home to the village.  He told me then that the

 4     military was there and that they were calling them to -- but that he

 5     wouldn't go with them.  He had some things up there in the shed.  Then

 6     the next time he got -- went up there, he found that these things were

 7     gone, and the soldiers were gone as well.  But don't ask me about that.

 8     I'm quite confused.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One final question on this issue.

10             When, as you said, they came and asked him to join, where you

11     said you left but he told you about this, was this after the shelling had

12     started or before the shelling had started?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything.  Why don't

14     you look at his statement?  He knows this better than I do.  I'm quite

15     confused with the little I know.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, we would just like to know what you

17     remember, and since you told us that you were present when they came to

18     see him, when you went home to the village, do you remember whether this

19     happened before the shelling had started or after the shelling had

20     started?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.  I'm an elderly

22     woman.  I don't know what the date was or anything.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you don't remember, tell us as you just

24     did.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

Page 10806

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Ms. Duric, why didn't your son come back from the mountain on the

 3     4th and 5th and join his family in your house?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, I asked not to intervene

 5     unnecessarily.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  Why did her son come is at least --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, it's what her son may have told her or

 8     whether there was any reason.

 9             Let's really try to reduce this to a minimum.

10             I will repeat the question to you, Ms. Duric.  Do you know your

11     son did not come back from the mountain and to join the family when it

12     all started?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But he would come home, he would

14     come home, and he did.  He had lunch with us, he went to the centre, got

15     some cigarettes; and by the time he was back, the house was already on

16     fire.  We were together on that day, had lunch together.  Then as we saw

17     that the house was on fire, we didn't know where he was during the day.

18     We prepared supper for him that day, believing that he was there, but he

19     wasn't there.  It took him one month from Knin to cover all that area.

20     He went with the other men on foot.

21             But why don't you look at his statement?  He didn't lie.  He will

22     tell you the way things happened.  I get confused, and I can't really

23     know because I wasn't there.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes Ms. Duric, we'd like to know what you remember.

25     If you don't know, tell us; if do you know, tell us as well.  We're

Page 10807

 1     interested to hear your recollection of what happened; and, of course,

 2     we'll also carefully look at the testimony and the statements of your

 3     son.  It may take some --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the best thing you can do,

 5     look at what he said, because he said and talked about everything that he

 6     saw or heard; and what he didn't see or didn't hear, he did not talk

 7     about.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The same in respect of you, we'd like to hear

 9     what you've seen, what you know.  If you don't know, tell us; if you do

10     know us, tell us what you know.

11             Mr. Misetic.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Ms. Duric, let me explain what it is that I would like to know.

14     You had to take a trip.  According to you, on two days, you walked three

15     and a half kilometres in each direction through shelling.  My question to

16     you is:  Why didn't your son come to the house, and, instead, why did you

17     have to go through shelling to go visit him?

18        A.   Draga and I went, because Draga's sheep were with him.  He was

19     tending her sheep as well.  It must have been a Friday.  Yes, there was

20     shelling, one could hear that, but it wasn't really heavy shelling.

21     Then, on the following day, it was a Saturday, I went to see him and I

22     told him, "Mile, everybody left except for a couple of us elderly.

23     There's nobody else left."  Then he said, "Please, why don't --  I said,

24     "Please, why don't you leave.  You see that there is shooting all around,

25     and they've taken Knin already."  That is how it was.

Page 10808

 1        Q.   Yes.  But, Ms. Duric, the question is:  What was your

 2     understanding at the time as to why you had to go up to see him and why

 3     he wasn't coming back to the family house in the village?  Why did you

 4     think he wasn't coming to the village that day?

 5        A.   But he did.  He did come to the village.  He came to the village

 6     and went to the centre, got some cigarettes, came back home, we had lunch

 7     together, and then he no longer went up there.  In the meantime, the

 8     house was set on fire.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please move on, Mr. Misetic.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Okay.

11        Q.   Ms. Duric, was Mile doing any kind of service for the Serbian

12     army up on that mountain?

13        A.   He didn't.  He wasn't.  He wasn't in the army at all.  He hadn't

14     done the military service.  Then when the troops came by his place,

15     because they were on -- they were fleeing, they were leaving the area,

16     they were escaping, they asked him to come along.  Never before had they

17     come to him to ask to join them.  It was only on the day when they were

18     running away that they asked him to come along.

19        Q.   Yes.  But is the real reason that he didn't come back to the

20     village for two days that he was keeping guard up on the mountain?

21        A.   Who?  Mile?  He didn't know about any sort of guard or keeping

22     guard.  Nobody was keeping guard there.  This was between Grahovo and

23     Plavnik and Knin.  There was no guard kept there, nor was Mile involved

24     in that.  He was caring for sheep.  He had 500 heads of sheep.  Besides,

25     it's not that the army was there.  They happened to pass along, and then

Page 10809

 1     they went away and he came home.

 2        Q.   That leads me to my next question, which was:  Do you know how

 3     and from what direction the Serbian army got to the mountain where Mile

 4     was?  Did they pass through your village?

 5        A.   Through the village?  Well, they went across the hill.  The

 6     military came from Strmica, and then there's at Plavnik hill, and they

 7     went across Grahovo.

 8             Mile didn't know about the troops or hear about them.  They were

 9     fleeing from Knin towards Strmica across the hills.

10        Q.   Right.  As they were fleeing from Knin, were they fleeing from

11     the Plavno valley; do you know?

12        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I only know that they went from

13     Strmica across the mountains toward Grahovo.

14        Q.   And how do you know that?

15        A.   How do I know that?  Well, easily.  Mile didn't have anything to

16     do with the army.  He didn't stand guard or anything.  He was minding his

17     own business and the sheep he had to tend, and that's how he was earning

18     his living and our living and we were doing fine.  Then he had to leave

19     the sheep, and he too had to leave in the other direction.  Everybody

20     left, the army.  You couldn't see a single soldier in Plavno, Knin, or

21     Strmica.  Everybody left.  Only he stayed behind.

22        Q.   Okay.  What I'd like to know is, you said you know that they went

23     from Strmica across the mountain towards Grahovo, and you said that you

24     knew "easily."

25             My question is:  What is the source of your information?  Is it

Page 10810

 1     Mile?

 2        A.   Well, I saw them.  I don't know about Mile.  I don't know .  He

 3     saw them, too, but he already left.  When they were leaving, he came down

 4     to the village.

 5        Q.   And did any Serbian soldiers pass through Djurici on their way

 6     over the mountain and towards Grahovo?

 7        A.   Yes, they did, across Plavno.  Our place is called Djurici, but

 8     it is it near Plavno.  They didn't go through Djurici.  They went across

 9     the fields to Rastani from Knin.  Those from Knin went through Plavno.

10     Those from Strmica took to the hills to Grahovo.

11        Q.   Now, in your conversations or observations of the Croatian

12     soldiers, were these Croatian soldiers, in fact, pursuing the Serbian

13     soldiers that were retreating through Plavno?

14        A.   Yes.  When they saw them coming to Knin, they left of their own

15     will, but don't ask me about it.  You're bothering me with this, just as

16     they were bothering me yesterday.  I can't know that, as you men would.

17             Why don't you look at Mile's statement?  He will tell you

18     everything about the soldiers, and now you tell me that he was standing

19     guard.  He wasn't, and he wasn't in any of the armies either.

20        Q.   Okay.  Ms. Duric, let me turn your attention to the 6th of

21     August.

22             In 1998, in your first statement, which is D397, on page 3, you

23     talk about that on the 6th of August, due to extensive shelling, at

24     8.00 a.m. you went with your daughter and several other persons to the

25     basement of your house.

Page 10811

 1             You also said that your husband and mother-in-law did not come to

 2     the basement but remained in your kitchen, and then you said:  "At

 3     5.00 p.m., we came out of the basement, and we saw that my house was

 4     still burning."

 5             So, according to this statement, between 8.00 a.m. and 5.00 p.m.

 6     on the 6th, you were in the basement with your daughter and several other

 7     women from the village.  Correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   And you did not see your husband or your mother-in-law between

10     8.00 a.m. and 5.00 p.m. on that day.  Isn't that true?

11        A.   Of course, we saw them.  We were there on that day.  It's just

12     that I can't give you the date.  We had lunch, and Mile was there, too;

13     and the neighbour, Draga, was there, too.  We had lunch, and then when we

14     saw that the shelling was coming near the house, we went to the basement.

15     We called upon the mother-in-law and my husband to come into the basement

16     because they had started shooting, and they said, "No, no.  We'll stay

17     here," because the mother-in-law is old and he is disabled.  So they

18     said, "You just go to the basement and take the child with you."

19             Now, that other thing, that was something else.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let me try this again.

21             Were you, in fact, in the basement of your house, as you said in

22     1998, from 8.00 a.m. until 5.00 p.m.?  That's true, isn't it?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's true.

24        Q.   Where did you have lunch?

25        A.   In the house.

Page 10812

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   After that, the shooting started in the village.  The soldiers

 3     were coming near.  We went to the basement, and that was after lunch.

 4     Then the burning and the shooting lasted until 5.00 p.m., and then we got

 5     out and we saw that the house was on fire.

 6             At that time, we still didn't know about Mile.  When we got out,

 7     we only realized that the house was on fire, and we found a soldier

 8     outside the door and I asked him, "Why did you set my house on fire."

 9     That house doesn't deserve that treatment.  It didn't have soldiers

10     belonging to either side.  Then I asked him, "Where are those two persons

11     who were in the house?"  He said there was nobody there, and I said,

12     "What do you mean there was nobody there?  My mother-in-law and husband

13     were."  He said he didn't see anybody.

14             Then we went further along, and we came across a couple of

15     soldiers.  We asked them who set the house on fire.  They wouldn't have

16     say anything.  It must have been them.  They had those masks on their

17     faces.

18             So we were looking for them when we came across my mother-in-law,

19     and I asked her, "Mother, where is Sava?"  She said, "I'm here.  They

20     forced us out of the kitchen, and they told him to go into the fire and

21     they told a soldier that he should take me to the village."  That's when

22     she started wailing, and she followed the soldier who was supposed to

23     take her to the village.  When she reached the gate she turned back and

24     saw that right from the doorstep they pushed him into the fire.

25             She kept wailing and crying, and it was very hard to gather what

Page 10813

 1     happened.

 2        Q.   Now --

 3        A.   And, of course, it's difficult for me to remember everything, and

 4     I keep telling you this and you don't believe me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the representative of the Registry assist the

 6     witness is the earphones.  Yes.

 7             Ms. Duric, had you been in the basement before you had lunch?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Dear me, dear me.  What I have

 9     landed myself into?  I'm being bothered but all this.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, don't worry too much.  We would just like to

11     hear your story, because in the statement, you said you were in the

12     basement on from 8.00 in the morning until 5.00 in the afternoon.  Now

13     you tell us that you had lunch in your house; and before lunch, you did

14     not yet hide in the basement?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When you keep bothering me, I have

16     to get confused and that's because you asked me things for the nth time.

17     I know that we were in the basement and then we had to go out of the

18     basement to have lunch, and then we got into the basement again.

19             I know this for a fact.  I know that we had lunch and we went

20     into the basement.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And perhaps you were already in the basement

22     before you had lunch; but, certainly, after lunch, you went to the

23     basement, and you said it was then that Mile left?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then when we were in the

25     basement, and we stayed there until dusk when we had to go out.  We

Page 10814

 1     realized that the house was on fire, the neighbour was with us.  We

 2     didn't know where to turn to, into which house we should move since most

 3     of them were burned, and we were afraid that they would be burned in a

 4     house.  We were wondering, in fact, when we got out of the basement, how

 5     it was that they didn't kill us, too.

 6             We were looking for a house to spend the night in, and there was

 7     a soldier who wanted to shoot at the house where we wanted -- where we

 8     intended to spend the night.  Mother-in-law pleaded with him not to burn

 9     it.  He asked her, "Whose house is that?"

10             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And my mother-in-law said, "My

12     daughter's."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then he asked --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Duric, please listen carefully to the next

16     question that Mr. Misetic will put to you, and if you are confused, just

17     tell us and we'll try to clarify whatever confuses you.

18             Mr. Misetic.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Now, also in 1998, on page 2 of your statement, you said that

21     your mother-in-law, this is in the last paragraph, "heard a cracking

22     noise of fire coming from the floors above while she was in the kitchen."

23             Is that correct, that the fire sound was coming from above?

24        A.   Yes, that's how it was.  But she said that the two of them had

25     been forced out of the house; that's to say, my mother-in-law and my

Page 10815

 1     son -- my husband.  The house was on fire, the tiles were falling off.

 2     It was a big fire because we had corn stored there, and my husband had a

 3     lot of wood because that is what he was working with, and it all was on

 4     fire.

 5        Q.   Did you see why the tiles were falling off the roof?  Did you see

 6     what caused the tiles [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7        A.   What do you mean, why?

 8        Q.   Did you see what caused the tiles to fall off the roof?

 9        A.   Because the house was on fire.

10        Q.   Now, in 1998, on page 2 in the last sentence, you said:  "My

11     mother-in-law said that as she was being taken away by one Croat

12     soldier, she saw another Croatian soldier force my husband into our

13     burning house."

14             Then on the next page, it says:  "I have not seen my husband

15     since, and I believe he was burnt in our home."

16             Now, today you don't believe that --

17        A.   He did not burn in the house.  He was in his workshop where he

18     produced all these things, where he made the barrels.  The fire consumed

19     everything, also his workshop, and him.

20        Q.   Okay.  But in 1998, you didn't say that your mother-in-law said

21     he was burnt in the workshop; you said that you believed that he was

22     burnt in the home.

23             Do you recall why you said you believed that, in 1998, he was

24     burnt in the home?

25        A.   Well, how -- what do you mean?  Of course, my mother-in-law was

Page 10816

 1     there.  She saw this, she was in tears, she collected all these remains,

 2     the bones.  We collected them and put them in a box, wrapped them in

 3     paper, and then we buried it.  We buried it in the graveyard.

 4        Q.   Ms. Duric, in your 2004 statement, which is P1004 --

 5        A.   Oh, will you stop asking me all these questions, for God's sake.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It will not take very long anymore, Ms. Duric.  We

 7     appreciate that you're trying your utmost best to answer the questions,

 8     and it will not take very long anymore.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   In paragraph 6, you said:  "I entered the room and I looked

13     around the rooms and kitchen, in spite of the fire and smoke, but I

14     didn't find them."

15             Now, did you recall any strong odours?  Because they're not

16     mentioned in your statement.  Do you recall any strong odours in the

17     basement or in the house or anything at that time?

18        A.   Well, there was hay there, there was corn, there were all sorts

19     of things.  He had saw there.  What do you mean by could I smell

20     anything?  That was a lot that would give out odour.  What do you mean

21     whether I could smell any odours?  I mean, I was beside myself.  I

22     couldn't find my son, my mother-in-law.  There was no one there.  They

23     killed them all.  My mother-in-law, you know, I was wondering whether she

24     had been thrown into the fire first and then her son.  Seven of her

25     family members had been killed in the previous war, and --

Page 10817

 1        Q.   Let me say you are absolutely right.  My question was not precise

 2     enough.

 3             My question should have been:  Did you notice any strong odours

 4     that were unusual, that you didn't typically smell in the village?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you could please focus directly.

 6     Apparently, you have some things on your mind, and this witness has

 7     difficulty in talking.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  I don't want to be morbid.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand; but at the same time -- yes.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I may have a moment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Either you touch on the subject and then it should

12     be done in such a way that the witness clearly understands what you're

13     asking her, or leave it as it is.  I do see your dilemma and I appreciate

14     that you are cautious in your approach.  At the same time, of course, it

15     doesn't make much sense if we get answers which doesn't assist us and

16     doesn't give us further information.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

18        Q.   Ms. Duric, let me ask you a question.  I'm sorry I have to ask it

19     this way.  But your statements -- none of your statements mention that

20     you smelled the smell of any burning body or burning flesh.  Is that

21     because you didn't recall, at the time that you were giving your

22     statements, that type of smell?

23        A.   How could I recall the smell or how could I smell anything?

24     There were all sorts of things there.  There was wood, there was hay.

25     Everything was burning, and the odours just blended.  It was all in one

Page 10818

 1     place.  It was all very near.  How could I smell anything?  It was all

 2     burning together where the smoke was coming out.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   He burned very fast.  He must have been dowsed with something,

 5     because it went so fast.  We were -- when we were up there and watching,

 6     and when we realized that they this thrown him into the fire, we found

 7     the ashes, but we couldn't stay there because the men were there.  We

 8     came there the next day, and searched through whatever we could to find

 9     his bones, but there were just few bones there.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask but that topic, Ms. Duric.  In that 1998

11     statement, you said:  "I have not seen my husband since, and I believe

12     that he was burnt in our home.  Later, when I returned to our home, I saw

13     white ..." --

14        A.   [No interpretation]

15        Q.   Let me finish, Ms. Duric.

16             What is says that you said to the investigators was:  "Later,

17     when I returned to our home, I saw white ash.  I believe those ashes to

18     the remains of my husband as we didn't find a single bone."

19             Do you recall telling that to the investigators of the Tribunal

20     in 1998?

21        A.   Well, we found what we found, it had all burnt down, but his

22     bones were very strong and sturdy.  We also found half of his head with a

23     back burn.  I said this initially in my first statement, but you're not

24     really listening very carefully.  I said that we had buried him.  We

25     collected the bones which we found among the ashes and wrapped them and

Page 10819

 1     put them in a box, and then we took the box to the graveyard and buried

 2     it there.  That's what I told you, and you said then -- see, now you're

 3     confusing me.

 4             Well, then you didn't believe me and we went and disinterred or

 5     redug, dug up the graveyard, and then they saw it was true.  Before that,

 6     nobody believed me.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Ms. Duric, let me show you or let me reed out to you two

 8     documents.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  And, Mr. Registrar, if I could first have P398 MFI,

10     please, on the screen.

11             It's under seal.  I'm sorry, Your Honour, maybe we should be in

12     private session --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We shouldn't be in public, and we should turn to

14     private session.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10820











11  Pages 10820-10823 redacted. Private session.















Page 10824

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             What Mr. Misetic would like to know is whether your son ever told

12     you that he not only heard it from your mother-in-law, but that he also

13     saw it with his own eyes how your husband was forced into the fire.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was there.  It's possible that

15     he saw it, but he doesn't like to talk about it.  Whenever I started a

16     conversation about it, he would refuse.  He didn't like to talk about it.

17     It's not easy for him either.  In these 15 years or so, he turned white,

18     that's how upset he is.  We lost our house, I had to go and rent a place,

19     and I don't have even a pension to live on.  So you have to understand my

20     situation is not very easy.  You have to understand that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, did this cover your last topic?

22             MR. MISETIC:  I did, Your Honour, and I have no further

23     questions.  Thank you.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions by other Defence counsel?

25             MR. KAY:  No, Your Honour.

Page 10825

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, no further questions.

 2             Ms. Duric, this Court fully understands how difficult it must

 3     have been for you to talk about the events which were the subject of your

 4     testimony.  When you earlier said, "Why do you torture me," we fully

 5     understood how difficult it was for you.

 6             Please accept that --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You should have understanding for

 8     me because it is really bad for me.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please accept that it was not our intention to give

10     you a difficult time, but that it is our task to hear from those who were

11     present at the time and at that location, to hear what they have seen,

12     what they have heard.  That is the only reason why we did put these

13     questions to you, and why Defence counsel and counsel for the Prosecution

14     did put those questions for you.  It's not only the Court but also

15     counsel that fully understands how difficult this must have been for you.

16             I, therefore, would like to thank you very, very much for coming

17     and to go through this difficult exercise, answering so many questions,

18     questions of such details.  I hope that you will have a safe trip home

19     again, and that you do not feel too much offended by what happened to you

20     today.

21             Thank you.

22                      [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  This concludes the testimony of this witness.

24             I suggest that we have -- she's still looking at us.  Is the

25     Prosecution ready to call the next witness?

Page 10826

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  We are, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But perhaps we will do that after the break, and

 3     then we would have one hour and a half remaining.

 4             We'll have a break, and we will resume at a quarter past 12.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we give the Prosecution the opportunity to

 8     call its next witness, the Chamber is aware that there has been some

 9     e-mail communications between the parties, especially about exhibits,

10     what is on the 65 ter list, what's not on the 65 ter list.

11             First of all, this discussion, more or less, took a form which,

12     as was expressed by Mr. Nilsson, took a form that it should be on the

13     record.  That's really important because we have three categories:  The

14     merely practical issues, no problem copying the Chamber; matters that are

15     not just practical, reference to be made to these e-mail communications

16     in court, so that it's on the record what it was approximately about; and

17     then, finally, we have the third category where it goes to the substance

18     or procedural matters which are of greater importance, and they should be

19     filed at a certain moment.

20             Now, without going into all the details and to see what 65 ter

21     numbers have been stricken again, what is still there, there seems to be,

22     at least one point of confusion; that is, a 65 ter number is assigned by

23     the Prosecution, and that's more or less an administrative act.  In order

24     to upload it, it needs a number.  Now, that doesn't mean that it is

25     admitted or that it is part of any admitted 65 ter list.  It seems that

Page 10827

 1     there's quite a lot of confusion that the numbering goes on about

 2     documents which are not yet admitted under Rule 65 ter.

 3             Now, at least in order to make sure that there's no confusion,

 4     the Chamber suggests to the parties that whenever a 65 ter number is

 5     assigned to a document which is not yet admitted under Rule 65 ter, which

 6     sound as bit odd, but that is, of course, the situation, so where the

 7     Prosecution intends to have it on the exhibit list under 65 ter, let's

 8     put them in italics, so that we know that, by then, that 65 ter number

 9     does not rev to any document which appears on a list on which the Chamber

10     has decided.  It's just a suggestion to the parties to do it this way, if

11     there are any comments, but at least we know, if we're talk being 65 ter

12     numbered documents, whether they really are exhibits already admitted on

13     the 65 ter list or not.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I may just suggest, that after

15     we're done today that the parties consult about this.  I'm advised by

16     case manager, and she's talked to Mr. Registrar, that you don't need a

17     65 ter number to upload into e-court, that all you need is the ERN number

18     and then the 65 ter can be added later.  That could be incorrect, but I

19     think we should verify that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Nevertheless, include my suggestion in your

21     discussions as well.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, if upload it under an ERN number, then, I

24     take it, it is for the purposes of later using it as evidence.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

Page 10828

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it would need a 65 ter number because our

 2     system works on 65 ter numbers --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- once admission is there, and I would rather not

 5     disturb that system by now referring to ERN numbers rather than to 65 ter

 6     numbers.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  No.  What I am suggesting is, if that, in fact, is

 8     the case, then the technical operation of getting a document into e-court

 9     is one thing that does not need to involve a 65 ter.  The issue for us

10     arises is that - and I've talked to Mr. Tieger about this, but we haven't

11     completed our conversation, quite frankly - there are significant range

12     of 65 ter numbers, in the hundreds, that have not been identified to the

13     Defence as to what they are.

14             So where our concern is, is that there may be documents that

15     there is some intent, whether it is a final intent or just a

16     consideration at this point, to be using documents that we don't know

17     what the Prosecution may intend to use in the near future; and,

18     therefore, we wanted to use the 65 ter list as, in fact, what we think is

19     intended to be, which is the list that the Defence can rely on as to what

20     the evidence of the Prosecution is that it needs to meet.

21             I propose, Your Honour, taking into account your comments, that

22     we meet briefly after court today and see if we can't come up with a

23     proposal.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Most important is that there is transparency

25     and what documents are about, what status they have at that moment, and

Page 10829

 1     the Chamber is waiting for the results of this conversation.

 2             Ms. Gustafson, are you ready to call your next witness.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls Ljiljana

 4     Botteri.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, there seems to be no objection against

 6     the admission of the 92 ter statements.  That is already on the record.

 7     These are the 2004 statement and 2007 statements.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, while the witness is coming in, the

 9     Prosecution notified the Chamber of its intention to tender two charts of

10     disciplinary measures into evidence.  We've had discussions with the

11     Gotovina Defence.

12             We have agreed to a format for the chart, and I would like to

13     circulate hard copies of that now.  It has been uploaded, but the format

14     of the chart, I think, makes it --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I also do understand that admission of the chart

16     would resolve other matters, such as other documents not to be sought to

17     be admitted anymore, which reduces the list considerably.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.  That's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would not mind, since Madam Usher is not

20     there, if someone else would assist news getting the hard copies.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Ms. Botteri.  I don't know where to

23     pronounce it Botteri, Botteri, Botteri, so if you would assist me in

24     pronouncing your name in the appropriate way.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Botteri.

Page 10830

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Botteri.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Botteri, before you give evidence in this court,

 4     the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you will make a solemn

 5     declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

 6     but the truth.

 7             The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher, and I would

 8     like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Botteri.  Please be seated.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first examined by Ms. Gustafson.

14     Ms. Gustafson is counsel for the Prosecution.

15             Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.  Perhaps I should mention that

16     during the testimony of the previous witness for very practical reasons,

17     I preferred the summary not to be read out.  That was in order to not

18     disrupt and not to lose the attention of the witness for what really was

19     what we are seeking her to do.

20             We'll find at a later moment, perhaps you pass this message to

21     Mr. Hedaraly, we find a later moment of the reading of the summary of the

22     last witness.

23             Sorry for interrupting, Ms. Botteri.

24             Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 10831

 1                           WITNESS:  LJILJANA BOTTERI

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Examination by Ms. Gustafson:

 4        Q.   Ms. Botteri, could you state your full name for the record,

 5     please.

 6        A.   Ljiljana Botteri.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And could the witness please be shown 65 ter

 9     number 5984.

10        Q.   Ms. Botteri, is this a statement that you made on the 19th and

11     20th of January, 2004, a statement that you gave to the Office of the

12     Prosecution?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if you witness could be shown 65 ter 5985.

16        Q.   Is this a statement that you made and signed on the 6th and 8th

17     of November, 2007, a statement that you gave to the Office of the

18     Prosecution?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And, Your Honour, if it pleases the Chamber,

22     we've agreed with the Defence we'll tender the Defence statement at this

23     time as well.

24             So if the witness could be shown document with document ID

25     1D58-0007.

Page 10832

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objection.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, one technical matter.  We have to

 3     release it into e-court, which we're doing right now.  Sorry.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is a bit of an uncommon procedure, but if

 5     the parties agree on that, well, we don't have --

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We don't have a formal application for it to be

 8     admit under Rule 92 ter.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, we do, Your Honour.  We filed it yesterday

10     morning.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yesterday morning.  I might have missed it.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The reason, Your Honour, is the witness made some

13     minor clarifications in the statement, so --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Clarifications, let's say.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's to her earlier statement, and we thought

16     to go through the 92 ter process --

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... seems to be --

18             MS. GUSTAFSON: -- together.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems to be a very practical solution, and if the

20     parties agree, then that's fine.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:

22        Q.   Ms. Botteri, is this a statement that you gave to Defence for

23     General Gotovina on the 23rd and 24th of October, 2008?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And taken together these three statements, including the

Page 10833

 1     corrections and clarifications that you've made in the second two

 2     statements, are they together true and accurate, to the best of your

 3     knowledge?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And, again, taken together, do these statements accurately

 6     reflect what you said at the time they were taken?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And if you were asked in court today the same questions you were

 9     asked when you gave those statements, would you give the Court the same

10     answers that are in those statements?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If those statement could be admitted, Your Honour

14     and I suppose the last statement should be given a D number.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar, let's take it one by one.  The

16     2004 Prosecution statement would be number?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P1005, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The November 2007 Prosecution statement would be?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P1006, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And the 2008 statement given to the Defence would

21     be?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D878.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  There were no objections against the 92 ter

24     statements as we established before.  Since you introduced the matter,

25     Ms. Gustafson, I take it that there are no objections against D878.

Page 10834

 1             Then P1005, P1006, and D878 are admitted into evidence.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I would like to read the 92 statement summary at

 3     this time, and I have not had a chance to explain this to the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I will briefly do that.

 5             Ms. Botteri, in order for the public to understand the questions

 6     and answers that will follow, we invite the parties to read a summary of

 7     what is found in the written statements, so that in these public trials,

 8     the public is also able to follow what has not been said aloud, but what

 9     was this Court finds on paper as statements of witnesses.

10             So, therefore, Ms. Gustafson will now read out a summary.  That

11     summary is not evidence.  You don't have to respond to that, but just in

12     order to enable others to follow these proceedings.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             Ms. Botteri was assistant commander for legal matters in the

16     Split Military District command at the time of Operation Storm and its

17     aftermath.  Ms. Botteri's responsibilities included matters relating to

18     the operation of the system of military discipline in the Split Military

19     District.  She received reports on military disciplinary measures taken

20     by commanders of units within the Split Military District and reviewed

21     them for validity.  She also received reports from Split Military

22     District units on disciplinary measures and compiled disciplinary reports

23     on behalf of the Split Military District.

24             That concludes the summary, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

Page 10835

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if the witness could be provided with hard

 2     copies of her statements.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if she could be shown 65 ter number 1834, and

 5     if we could move to page 2.

 6        Q.   Ms. Botteri, do you recognise this as the Code Of Military

 7     Discipline from the 25th of April, 1992, Gazette?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And is this the operative -- was this the operative code of

10     military discipline in 1995?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could zoom in on Article 3 of the Code,

13     which at the bottom of the page in English and near the top in B/C/S.

14        Q.   Article 3 of the Code, is that the Article that describes the

15     categories of conduct that was subject to disciplinary measures?

16             It's paragraphs 1 through 8, I think.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could scroll in the English to the top

18     of the next page to see the last three.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:

21        Q.   And I'd like to ask you about one of those provisions which is

22     number 7, "Commission of a crime for which proceedings are initiated ex

23     officio," and I'd like to you explain to the Court what that provision

24     means.

25        A.   This means that, where a criminal offence has been committed by a

Page 10836

 1     perpetrator who is a member of the Croatian army, a military disciplinary

 2     procedure could have been initiated against that individual, could have,

 3     but it did not have to.  Military disciplinary proceedings and criminal

 4     proceedings are quite separate proceedings that do not preclude each

 5     other.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And just to clarify, when you said where this means

 7     that "where criminal offence has been committed by a perpetrator," I'd

 8     like you to clarify, does -- is this provision invoked where an act that

 9     could be criminally prosecuted has been committed; or is this provision

10     invoked when some proceeding, criminal proceeding, has been initiated?

11             Do you understand my question?

12        A.   Not quite.  Because item 7 of Article 3 of the Code of Military

13     Discipline cannot be viewed in isolation as is the general rule for

14     interpreting legislation.  The application of this particular provision

15     can be discussed only in the context of the Code of Military discipline

16     as a whole.

17             This is something that I've tried to explain in the three

18     statements that I gave.

19        Q.   I understand that.  Based on your interpretation of the Code, is

20     this a provision that can only be invoked if a criminal proceeding has

21     been initiated; or does it just refer to conduct that could be classified

22     as criminal?  I'm asking based on your understanding of the Code as a

23     whole.

24        A.   Can you please clarify your question?  I don't quite understand

25     it, as it is.

Page 10837

 1        Q.   Certainly.  The provision states:  "Commission of a crime for

 2     which proceedings are initiated ex officio."

 3             My question is:  Does a criminal proceeding -- or did a criminal

 4     proceeding have to have already been initiated before this particular

 5     provision of the Code could be used by a commander to discipline a

 6     subordinate?

 7        A.   Military disciplinary responsibility was determined or

 8     ascertained by commanders.  Other bodies, on the other hand, decided on

 9     criminal responsibility.  Therefore, for a commander to initiate a

10     military disciplinary procedure, he had to have information from bodies

11     which dealt with prevention and detection of criminal offences, to the

12     effect -- information to the effect that the act involved was, indeed, a

13     criminal offence, in order for him to be able to decide whether such

14     unlawful behaviour defined as such by other competent bodies, defined as

15     a criminal offence, whether to launch criminal proceedings.

16             If we look at the Code of Military Discipline as a whole, there

17     are other provisions which state that military commanders initiate

18     military disciplinary proceedings where criminal responsibility was

19     involved, where the interests of the service required him to do so,

20     because the entire procedure, as prescribed in the Code of Military

21     Discipline, was formulated in that way.

22             As far as the perpetrators are concerned, here, I mean that this

23     is something that depended on the status of the perpetrator, whether the

24     perpetrator was an active serviceman, what sort of position they had or

25     rank, or whether they were members of the reserve force, all this had a

Page 10838

 1     role to play when it came to deciding about military disciplinary

 2     proceedings.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, just so the Court is aware, I am

 5     following on channel 1.  There may be an issue with respect to page 69,

 6     line 19, as to the last three words in that line.  I believe she said

 7     something different, but Ms. Gustafson way wish to clarify that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's just check that.

 9             Ms. Botteri, our attention is drawn to part of your answer.  I

10     will read to you how it is translated to us, and it's a rather long

11     sentence, but I'm asking your specific attention to the last three words

12     of this eight-line sentence:

13              "Therefore, for a commander to initiate a military disciplinary

14     procedure, he had to have information from bodies which dealt with

15     prevention and detection of criminal offences, to the effect --

16     information to the effect that the act involved was, indeed, a criminal

17     offence, in order for him to be able to decide whether such unlawful

18     behaviour defined as such by other competent bodies, defined as a

19     criminal offence, whether to launch criminal proceedings."

20             Did you intend to say "whether to launch criminal proceedings,"

21     or did you intend to say whether to launch other type of proceedings?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't mean "criminal

23     proceedings," I meant "other proceedings."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Disciplinary proceedings?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Disciplinary, yes, since it was the

Page 10839

 1     military commander who decided about initiating disciplinary proceedings

 2     and not criminal proceedings.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's logic and makes sense.  Thank you for

 4     the clarification.

 5             Ms. Gustafson, please proceed.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Just to clarify, Ms. Botteri, if you -- if you received a report

 8     from a commander indicating that a soldier was disciplined under

 9     Article 3, paragraph 7 of the Code, did you understand that to mean that

10     there was a parallel criminal proceeding, in addition to the disciplinary

11     one?

12        A.   That would be my understanding, but it was not within the -- my

13     purview or within the purview of the military commander.  It lay within

14     the purview of other organs or bodies.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could move now to page 7 of the English and

17     page 4 of the B/C/S of this document.

18        Q.   And, Ms. Botteri, if you could look at Articles 21 to 23, are

19     these the Articles that establish the maximum punishment, disciplinary

20     punishment that can be imposed at various levels and various positions

21     within the Croatian army.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could control to the next pages of the

23     English, to Articles 22 and 23.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  These are measures prescribed

25     by Articles 21, and 23; that's to say, disciplinary measures.

Page 10840

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 2        Q.   And would you agree that, according to these provisions, a term

 3     of detention of greater than 15 days could only be imposed by a brigade

 4     commander, a Military District commander, or someone -- or an officer

 5     with an equivalent position?

 6        A.   You said which disciplinary measure?  Could you repeat that,

 7     please.

 8        Q.   A measure of greater than 15 days imprisonment.

 9        A.   Yes.  Article -- item 3 of Article 21 says that a commander of

10     the battalion or an independent battalion can pass the disciplinary

11     measure of confinement to barracks for a period of up to seven days and

12     detention to military prison for a period of up to 15 days.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to ask you, Ms. Botteri, because our time is

14     limited, if you could limit your answers to just what I've asked; and if

15     I need clarification, I'll ask you for that.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could move to Article 32, which is at

17     page 10 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S.

18        Q.   And, Ms. Botteri, does this provision allow a company commander

19     or someone of a higher position to detain a soldier who had committed a

20     serious breach of order for up to 48 hours, without the intervention of

21     the military police?

22        A.   This is an exception to the rule.  Paragraph 2 of the same

23     Article says that the officer is duty-bound to inform forthwith, the

24     officer authorised to decide about the disciplinary responsibility of

25     soldiers.  So this an emergency measure which is not the constituent part

Page 10841

 1     of the entire procedure.

 2        Q.   I take it from your answer that your answer to my question is

 3     yes.

 4        A.   I don't agree that the answer is yes.

 5        Q.   Well, you said it was an exception to the rule, but is it or is

 6     it not a provision that allows a company commander or someone of a higher

 7     position to detain a soldier for up to 48 hours, without the intervention

 8     of the military police, as you say, in exceptional circumstances?

 9        A.   No.  The provision says for no longer than 48 hours.  This is a

10     provisional measure which is not a disciplinary measure applied in

11     exceptional circumstances where disorderly conduct of the gravest sort is

12     involved, but this particular decision is forwarded to his superior

13     commander who would be in charge of conducting disciplinary proceedings.

14        Q.   Thank you --

15        A.   This is not a military disciplinary measure of detention.

16        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Botteri.  I didn't ask --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a confusion.

18             Ms. Botteri, Ms. Gustafson is asking whether Article 32 gives the

19     authority to keep someone in detention, not as a final sanction to the

20     disciplinary misbehaviour, but as a preliminary measure to keep someone

21     in detention, without the intervention of the military police, if the

22     military officer has established that someone committed a serious breach

23     of order, not as a final sanction, but just as a preliminary measure,

24     and, as you told us, that this would be the exception rather than the

25     rule.  Is Ms. Gustafson correct in stating it this way?

Page 10842

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only in the sense of the

 2     preliminary measure.  That's what Madam Gustafson is right about, when it

 3     comes to the application of the preliminary measure, but not when it

 4     comes to the disciplinary measure of detention in emergency situations,

 5     requiring urgent action.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ir looks as if matters are clear.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             If we could move now to Articles 34 to 36, and that's at page 11

 9     of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S.

10        Q.   Ms. Botteri, these are the provisions that set out the procedure

11     for assessing the regularity of disciplinary measures by officers

12     superior to those who have imposed the measures.

13             I'd like you to look at Article 36, which I think is on the next

14     page.

15             This is a provision, as can you see, that deals with when a

16     superior officer should overturn a disciplinary measure, and I'd like you

17     to look at paragraph 4, which says:  "If the offence against military

18     discipline is, in fact, a violation ..."

19             My question for you is this:  If a commander received a

20     disciplinary measure to assess for regularity, for a minor breach, and

21     the commander was of the view that the offence was, in fact, a violation

22     of discipline, what was the procedure?  What would the commander do?

23        A.   It seems to me here - and, I apologise, but you have actually set

24     it out upside down - if the superior officer issued or was issued a

25     disciplinary -- oh.  If he received a disciplinary measure for

Page 10843

 1     assessment, and if he were to determine that in his view this violation

 2     is a major violation of military discipline, in that event the

 3     proceedings would be initiated before the military disciplinary court in

 4     charge of major disciplinary violations, such as this, of a serious

 5     infraction, a serious offence.

 6        Q.   So the matter would be referred to the military disciplinary

 7     court.  Is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could move now to page 7 in English --

11     sorry, in B/C/S and page 14 in English, and the bottom of page 7 in

12     B/C/S.

13        Q.   I'd like to ask you now one or two questions about the military

14     disciplinary courts.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could look at, sorry, Article 69, which

16     sets out who is authorised to bring charges before a military

17     disciplinary court, and then if we could move to the next page in B/C/S.

18             Sorry.  I'm looking for the remainder of Article 69, which may be

19     on the same page.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we look at the left side of this

21     page.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   And my question is this:  Is it correct that in the -- for

25     Military Districts, the Military District commander would be the lowest

Page 10844

 1     level individual empowered to bring charges before the military

 2     disciplinary court?

 3        A.   If you don't mind, I would suggest that we go back to the

 4     previous page, where the proceeding of initiating -- the procedure of

 5     initiating proceedings that involve military disciplinary offences are

 6     discussed.

 7        Q.   I'm not asking about proceedings.  I'm asking specifically about

 8     bringing charges before the military disciplinary court.  I'd like an

 9     answer, if you can, with a "yes" or a "no" whether in the Military

10     District, the Military District commander is the lowest ranking officer

11     empowered to bring charges before a military disciplinary court?

12             MR. MISETIC:  Your, Honour, I apologise for the interruption, But

13     if I can just get a clarification as to which subpart of 69 we're

14     looking at.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Specifically part 2.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I guess, then, I will just ask for --

18     I will have a formal objection that it is ambiguous as to, in that

19     context, what "lowest ranking" means.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, are you able to rephrase your

21     question.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm not sure, Your Honour.  Frankly, I don't

23     quite understand the objection.  I'm sorry.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Misetic says that it is not unambiguous.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Lowest ranking, I mean, without getting into too

Page 10845

 1     much argument, there seems to be multiple individuals who can bring

 2     charges, not all of whom are in the same chain; and, therefore, lowest,

 3     highest, how they're interrelated, I think, is a bit confusing at this

 4     point.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Perhaps if the witness could take off her

 6     headphones.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But let's first ask whether she understands English.

 8             Do you speak or understand any English, Ms. Botteri.  I'm putting

 9     the question to you.  It is translated to you not by a male voice

10     perhaps, but do you understand or read any English?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The problem is not in my

12     understanding of the language.  I can hear very well what's being

13     interpreted to me into Croatian; however --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I cannot answer a question of

16     this type.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Botteri, my simple question at this moment is:

18     Do you understand the English language?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not too well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you to -- so you do understand some

21     English.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm happy to rephrase the question, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Ms. Botteri, in the Split Military District, who was the lowest

Page 10846

 1     ranking individual who could bring a charge before a military

 2     disciplinary court?

 3        A.   Within our legal system, there are different terms in use.  I

 4     would appreciate, first of all, if Ms. Gustafson could describe to me

 5     what exactly she means by "to bring a charge" when speaking of military

 6     disciplinary proceedings.

 7             In the chain of command --

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 9        A.   -- the brigade commander already --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] --  is empowered to initiate such

12     proceedings.  This is it why I asked to be shown the provisions that

13     precede this one, in order for me to be able to answer this question.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:

15        Q.   I'm reading from the top of Article 69, which says:  "The

16     decision to bring charges before a military disciplinary court ..."

17             Perhaps if you look at it in the original, it will make sense.

18             Do you understand what type of procedure I'm referring to now,

19     when I say "decision to bring charges"?

20        A.   That's correct.  The decision to bring charges before a military

21     disciplinary court may be made by the chief of the Main Staff in

22     situations involving persons of higher rank, and I don't know want to

23     name them all here; and the decision to bring charges before a military

24     disciplinary court is made by a commander of an operative zone for

25     individuals within his competence.

Page 10847

 1             As far as I have remember, this was to the level of brigadier.

 2        Q.   And, now, if could you answer my question:  In the Split Military

 3     District, who was the lowest ranking officer who could bring charges

 4     before a military disciplinary court?

 5        A.   What do you mean by "bringing charges before a military

 6     disciplinary court"?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Botteri, Ms. Gustafson is referring to

 8     Article 69, where the text says by whom the decisions to bring charges

 9     before a military disciplinary court can be made.

10             Now she is asking who was the lowest ranking person within the

11     Split Military District who could bring such charges, as referred to in

12     Article 69, before a military disciplinary court.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The decision to bring charges

14     before a military disciplinary court is made by the commander of an

15     operation zone.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

17             Now, Your Honour, I'd like to turn to the chart, and I have

18     prepared a hard copy of the documents for the witness to look at, and she

19     has seen a similar set of documents before.

20        Q.   Ms. Botteri, you're being given a bundle of documents now, and it

21     contains the same documents that were given by the Prosecution a few days

22     ago, containing documents relating to 83 disciplinary incidents that

23     occurred in August and September of 1995.

24             Do you recall receiving that same bundle of documents a few days

25     ago?

Page 10848

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I could just ask for a 65 ter so we

 2     could pull up what's in e-court.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The chart that refers to these documents is 6017,

 4     and the individual documents that I'll direct the witness to have

 5     different numbers.

 6        Q.   Ms. Botteri, do you recognise these documents as the same ones

 7     that you were given a few days ago.  The index on the front may be a

 8     little bit different, but the documents themselves --

 9        A.   I don't recall this index, but I did see the documents two days

10     ago.

11        Q.   And have you had a chance to read through those documents?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And are these documents that you would have seen at the time in

14     1995?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And having looked at the documents of these 83 incidents, are

17     they generally consistent with your recollection of the -- the nature of

18     the documents that you saw at the time?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Has this document been uploaded, Ms. Gustafson,

20     because 65 ter numbers for the Chamber, we find -- you gave us hard

21     copies of two documents, "known examples of," and the other one,

22     "disciplinary actions taken by."  Which one are we talking about?  Where

23     is the Index?

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, the Index to the binder is a

25     collapsed version of the chart, just with the numbers, taken out of the

Page 10849

 1     English.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It is the larger chart, the known examples.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Known examples, that's what we're talk being.  You

 5     have provided all the documents listed in the binder to the witness, and

 6     you're now seeking whether these are the documents she reviewed.

 7             Yes, well, now it's clear to me.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 9        Q.   Ms. Botteri, do you have my question in mind?  Are these

10     documents consistent with the recollection and type of disciplinary

11     documents that you saw at the time in August and September of 1995?

12        A.   As far as I can remember, yes; although a lot of time has elapsed

13     in the meantime, but I do recall.

14        Q.   And a large number of these instances, disciplinary breaches,

15     deal with the problem of soldiers being absent without leave or reporting

16     late to their units.  Is that consistent with your recollection that that

17     was a large number -- a large percentage of the disciplinary reports that

18     you saw at the time?

19        A.   I cannot confirm that with certainty whether I remember that

20     there were so many such documents.

21        Q.   Okay.  And now I'd like to go to two sets of documents which is

22     tabs 62 and 64 in your binder.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  These are at 65 ter number 6012, and specifically

24     pages 10 and 11 of the 65 ter number.

25        Q.   Now, in the bundle, number 62 and 64 are the two --

Page 10850

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, for us to follow all this, not having

 2     a binder, could you also indicate what entries in the --

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  They're the same entries, Your Honour, 62 and 64,

 4     and I'm bringing them up on e-court now.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 7        Q.   And these two instances are the two that deal with burning.  Do

 8     you recall either of these?

 9        A.   No.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could move to the next page in e-court,

11     this is entry 62 -- sorry, this is 64.

12        Q.   And now you can see that one of these deals with an incident

13     where a soldier set three haystacks on fire; and the other one deals with

14     an instance where the platoon commander failed to prevent the soldiers

15     from his platoon from setting haystacks on fire.

16             You have said --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, on the split screen, I see to the

18     left 261-95.  On the right hand, apparently the original, I see 273-95,

19     which are certainly different documents.  Also, I see 20 per cent against

20     10 percent.  I see different dates.  I'm looking now at my e-court

21     screen.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will try to find the right

23     page in English.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It also doesn't deal with haystacks.

25             Now it seems that we are there.  Yes, three haystacks.  We have

Page 10851

 1     now the same documents in the original and in the English translation.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 4        Q.   You've said you don't recall either of these two instances.  I'd

 5     like to ask you this:  Do you recall receiving any reports of

 6     disciplinary measures relating to the burning or destruction of property

 7     during this time, August or September of 1995?

 8        A.   Reports, no.  But I do recall these orders that were submitted to

 9     me to evaluate irregularity.

10        Q.   And number 62 is an instance where the platoon commander failed

11     to prevent the soldiers of his platoon from setting haystacks on fire.

12             Do you recall any other instances of a commander being

13     disciplined for failing to prevent his soldiers from carrying out acts of

14     misconduct?

15        A.   I do not recall specific incidents.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Now, if we could move to 65 ter number 6013,

18     page 31 in the English, and page 17 in the B/C/S, this is entry 10 in the

19     chart.

20        Q.   So, Ms. Botteri, if you could turn to tab 10.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could scroll down in the English.

22        Q.   This is the first of five incidents in the bundle that have --

23     that relate to theft.  In this one, we can see a member of the 4th Guards

24     Brigade being disciplined for being absent without leave on 17th

25     August 1995 in a stolen car from Knin.

Page 10852

 1             Do you recall this incident?

 2        A.   No.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could move to page 7 of the B/C/S and

 4     page 11 of the English, this relates to entry 42 in the chart.

 5        Q.   So, Ms. Botteri, if could you move to tab 42.

 6             This, again, is an incident dealing with a soldier in the

 7     4th Guards Brigade being disciplined because, on 10 September 1995, he

 8     drove off in a tractor (war booty), and left his unit without informing

 9     the commander.

10        A.   I apologise, but what number is this under?

11        Q.   42, Milan Dodig.

12             If you could now move to tab 73, entry 73 in the chart.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  This should be page 22 in the B/C/S, and I

14     believe it's the final translation, separately uploaded, in English.

15             I apologise.  I'm not able to find it in English.

16        Q.   This incident deals with a false report of theft of war booty.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could move to 65 ter 1571.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we ask first the witness what that exactly

19     means, or will you come to that?

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I was going to, Your Honour, but I'm happy for

21     you to ask that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, no, if you have that on your mind, then I will

23     wait and see.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to the second page in B/C/S, and

25     the second page in English.

Page 10853

 1        Q.   And have you found this, Ms. Botteri?  Sorry.  This is at tab 12.

 2     It deals with a soldier taking an Marakov rifle from a barracks in

 3     Sibenik.

 4             The final incident dealing with theft is an incident for which

 5     two people were disciplined, and that's under tab 78 and 79 of your

 6     bundle.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The reports have been uploaded under 65 ter

 8     number 6031.

 9        Q.   This is an incident where two soldiers have been disciplined for

10     taking a motor vehicle from the company commander without permission,

11     loading it with wood and driving home.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could just scroll to the next page in both

13     languages, and the following page in English, please.

14        Q.   Ms. Botteri, do you specifically recall any other disciplinary

15     cases that you saw for incidents of theft?

16        A.   I really do not remember any specific cases to mention here,

17     because a lot of time has elapsed.

18        Q.   I understand.  And to go back to a question His Honour was

19     asking, two of these incidents refer to war booty, and that's behind tabs

20     42 and 73.

21             You referred to war booty in your 2007 statement, and you said:

22     "I'm not familiar with the exact definition of the term 'war booty,' but

23     it was about taking property from the enemy in accordance with the

24     definitions of international law."

25             So my question is this:  When the report, for example, behind

Page 10854

 1     tab 42 was a report dealing with a soldier driving off in a tractor (war

 2     booty) without informing his commander, what is your understanding of the

 3     reference to the tractor being war booty?

 4        A.   War booty concerns the seizing of movable property of the enemy

 5     forces, the primary purpose of which is a military one.  This would not

 6     normally apply to a tractor as well, unless the tractor involved could be

 7     said to have been used for military purposes in that particular instance.

 8             That's all can I tell you on that score.

 9        Q.   So, in this incident, the soldier driving off in a tractor, did

10     you understand that to be a tractor that the Croatian army had obtained

11     as war booty?  In other words, was he stealing from the army?  Is that

12     what he is being disciplined for?

13        A.   I cannot voice any sort of an opinion on that because the only

14     thing I see here is an order on a disciplinary measure as a final

15     document.

16             As for the supporting documentation describing the entire

17     disciplinary procedure carried out in the brigade, it is not available to

18     me.  It is not available to me, the supporting documentation.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It does not fully answer the question I had in my

21     mind.

22             In relation to 73, tab 73, what does it mean "falsely or

23     incorrectly reporting to his immediate superior concerning the theft of

24     war booty by a member of the transport platoon"?

25             Could you explain to us what we have to understand.  What was

Page 10855

 1     falsely done in this reporting, if you know?  If you don't know, fine.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot explain what the false

 3     report to the commander means.

 4             What I would like to say is that the list of all the cases -- or,

 5     rather, when we were given cases to review for their validity of

 6     irregularity, we did not obtain the complete lists of them or the

 7     complete documentation.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not?  You did not receive the underlying

 9     documentation?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:

12        Q.   Just to follow up on that, you received the report imposing the

13     measure, is that right, but not any investigation reports or witness

14     statements?  Is that what you're -- is that what you mean?

15        A.   Yes.  To my recollection, we did not.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go back to 65 ter number 1571, and

18     this is entry 12.

19        Q.   If you could look behind tab 12 of your bundle, Ms. Botteri.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we can go to page 6 in the B/C/S and

21     page 7 of the second English translation uploaded into e-court.

22        Q.   Ms. Botteri, do you see a police report in -- in this set of

23     documents behind tab 12, a report by the 72nd Military Police Battalion,

24     military crime police, dated 22nd of August?

25             Do you see that report?

Page 10856

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we can go to page 2 in the B/C/S, and the

 3     first translation in English.

 4        Q.   Ms. Botteri, do you see the report to General Gotovina for

 5     assessment in this -- you can look on the screen or in the documents

 6     under tab 12.

 7             This report notes that a criminal report has been filed.  Do you

 8     see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   My question for you is:  Was that the normal procedure, when a

11     commander sent you a military disciplinary report, was it normal to

12     include the police report and/or note that a criminal report had been

13     filed?

14        A.   No, that was not customary practice.  It was an exception where

15     it involved quite orderly commanders.  This was something that was not

16     required because it was understood that a criminal procedure had been

17     initiated.

18        Q.   What do you mean by that "it was understood that a criminal

19     procedure had been initiated"?  Is that in every case, or did that depend

20     on the incident?

21        A.   In every case, if it involved an offence that was qualified as a

22     criminal offence, if it had elements or hallmarks of a criminal offence.

23     This means that all of the cases we've just been through, we were only

24     discussing military disciplinary breaches.  But for all these cases,

25     criminal reports or complaints were filed as well.

Page 10857

 1        Q.   Now, you've just said that you didn't, as a general practice,

 2     receive those reports, but you said it was understood in those cases that

 3     a criminal procedure had been initiated if it involved an offence that

 4     was qualified as a criminal offence, if it had elements or hallmarks of a

 5     criminal offence.

 6             Is that based on your assessment?  If you saw a report that in

 7     your view had elements or hallmarks of a criminal offence, did you assume

 8     that a criminal report had been filed for that incident?

 9             Am I understanding you correctly, or is that not correct?

10        A.   This was not an assessment on my part, on a case-to-case basis.

11     This was my knowledge.  I knew that there was the military police, which

12     had the authority to process and file criminal reports, or, rather, it's

13     crime military police section did.

14        Q.   So, from your perspective, it was sufficient to know that there

15     was a military police with the authority to process and file criminal

16     reports for you to understand that a criminal report would have been

17     filed for disciplinary matters that had the hallmarks of criminality?

18             Is that a correct understanding?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I note the time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  This would be a convenient time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to adjourn for the day.

25             Ms. Botteri, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak

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 1     with anyone about your testimony, either the testimony you have given

 2     already today or the testimony still to be given tomorrow or the day

 3     after tomorrow.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00,

 4     although in a different courtroom.

 5             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, the 30th of

 6     October, 9.00, Courtroom III.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of

 9                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.