1 Tuesday, 18 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 There is still a motion pending on protective measures.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's right, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, the Chamber is inclined to give
14 the parties an opportunity to put further questions in relation to that
15 motion to the witness and will then give its ruling on the matter.
16 But that should be done in closed session. Therefore, we turn
17 into closed session.
18 [Closed session]
11 Pages 11992-11999 redacted. Closed session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to examine Ms. Mauro?
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
16 Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
17 Q. I'm not sure, Mr. President, whether the witness's full name was
18 recorded previously. No, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Not before we entered into closed session, and I
20 didn't -- you didn't ask her, as a matter of fact, the parties didn't ask
21 her to state her full name for the record, so that still should be done.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Ms. Mauro, could you please state your full name for the record.
24 A. Maria Teresa Mauro.
25 Q. Did you provide two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor on
1 2nd and 3rd March, 2000, and for the second time on 5th and 6th January,
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And since then, have you had an opportunity to examine both those
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you find that the contents of the two statements accurately
8 reflected what you stated to the members of the Office of the Prosecutor
9 on those previous occasions?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call for document number
12 5362, please.
13 Q. And the document will come up on the screen in front of you,
14 Ms. Mauro.
15 While that's happening, if you could say, are the contents of
16 both those statements true to the best of your knowledge?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, if you were asked the questions that were asked of you by
19 the members of the Office of the Prosecutor in March 2000 and in
20 January 2008 again today in court, would your responses be the same?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know the statement in front of you?
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And, Mr. Registrar, if you could just -- yes,
24 thank you.
25 Q. Do you identify that as your statement?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And Mr. Registrar, can we take the document --
3 the English version to the -- not the last page. The one before the last
4 page, the signature page.
5 Q. Is that your signature?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to move this document
8 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: From the written submissions, I take it that there
10 are no objections against admission.
11 Mr. Registrar, the 2000 statement would be ...
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P1098.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And the 2008 statement would be ...
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Let me call that --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. We have not seen it. Yes. I'm too early.
16 P1098 is admitted into evidence.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And, Mr. Registrar, if you could bring up on
18 the screen document 5362, please.
19 Q. And, Ms. Mauro, if you could look at the next document that comes
20 up on the screen and identify it.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any problem as far as the number is
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry. 5363, Mr. Registrar. I beg your
25 Q. Ms. Mauro, is that your document of 2008?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I move this statement into
3 evidence, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Same observation, as far as Defence submissions are
6 Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P1099, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P1099 is admitted into evidence.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
10 Q. Ms. Mauro --
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, how will we deal, because we have
13 one related exhibit still to be added to the 65 ter list - I do
14 understand that's one HRAT report - in addition to the ones that were
15 already on the 65 ter list. I do understand that there's no objection
16 against adding that to the 65 ter list. The other related exhibits, will
17 you put them on the list and that we --
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I will call up only three
19 documents of that list at the end of the session, so we will provide --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then the remainder we'll find on a list so
21 that Mr. Registrar can assign numbers to those you did not refer to.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I'll do that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
25 Q. Ms. Mauro, at the time you provided the supplemental statement to
1 the Office of the Prosecutor in 2008, did you examine a number of
2 reports, majority of which were authored or co-authored by yourself?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, did you examine those documents since 2008, since the time
5 you made the supplementary statement, particularly on Sunday or
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you satisfied that the contents of those documents are true
9 and accurate to the best of your knowledge?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I read the summary of the
12 witness's 92 ter statement?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. You have explained to the witness
14 what the purpose of reading out the summary is?
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I have.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Ms. Maria Teresa Mauro worked as an UN civil
18 affairs officer based in Knin from March to December 1995. She was
19 present during the shelling of Knin on 4th and 5th August, 1995. She was
20 a member of the Human Rights Action Team, known as HRAT, from 7
21 August 1995, and in this capacity conducted daily HRAT patrols in the
22 southern Krajina. She reported on her observations and compiled a number
23 of HRAT reports containing information of human rights violations
24 observed by HRAT monitors during and in the aftermath of Operation Storm.
25 Ms. Mauro provided direct notice of crimes to accused Ivan Cermak.
1 That is all, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if the witness could be handed
4 over the hard copies of the statement and -- thank you, Madam Usher.
5 And, Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit P1098 on the screen,
7 Q. Ms. Mauro, if you could look at your 2000 statement, and you have
8 the hard copies before you. You can peruse them or follow it on the
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And, Mr. Registrar, if we could move to page 3
11 on the English translation, the original, and page 3 of the Croatian
12 version. The paragraphs are not numbered but paragraph 3 on page 3.
13 Q. You say -- this is what you say: "I can remember General Cermak
14 arriving early on after the attack and often being available to talk
15 about the problems that we encountered. He appeared to be the main
16 authority in the area and had a number of aides with him. Cermak wore a
17 uniform and was apparently the governor of Knin at that time."
18 Now my question to you, Ms. Mauro, is: What were the factors
19 that led you to think that Mr. Cermak appeared to be the main authority
20 in the area?
21 A. Well, it was the person that also others were referring to when
22 situations were difficult and needed to be taken care of and resolved,
23 and it was obvious.
24 Q. Can you be a little bit more specific, Ms. Mauro, when you say it
25 was obvious. Apart from others referring to, did you observe anything
1 personally which led you to conclude that Mr. Cermak was the main
2 authority in the area?
3 A. Well, it was the most senior -- it is undoubtful because also
4 within our own hierarchy, the person that we were relating to was him,
5 and I referred to General Forand or the head of my office, so the highest
6 authority in the area was him.
7 Q. As I understood you, you said: "Within our own hierarchy, the
8 person we were relating to was him..."
9 A. Was General Cermak.
10 Q. I see. And now, in your statement you talk about having personal
11 contact with him, participating in meetings with him. What were your
12 personal observations about the particular meetings and how Mr. Cermak
13 expressed himself?
14 A. That's exactly what I --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Higgins. One second.
16 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, my objection is to the way that the
17 question was put by Ms. Mahindaratne whereby she states -- she refers to:
18 "You talk about having personal contact with him, participating in
19 meetings with him." In my submission, we must take care at this point,
20 and there must be a basis put as to whether or not that is accurate and
21 the nature of any contact that this witness had, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I take it that --
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I can refer the paragraphs in the statement.
24 Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: In the statement, of course, there is some mention
1 of direct contact. Whether we call it a meeting or did you meet someone
2 not in a meeting, that's -- but in -- I do understand that your question
3 relates to direct contact between this witness and Mr. Cermak.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is correct, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please, then, answer the question.
6 THE WITNESS: Which question?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll --
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Let me repeat the question, Ms. Mauro.
9 Q. In your personal direct contact with Mr. Cermak, how did you see
10 or understand Mr. Cermak's authority in the area to be?
11 A. It is exactly as I wrote in my statement.
12 Q. And could you express that, please.
13 A. He was the authority in the area. He was the person we would
14 refer to when there were issues to be looked at, and situations which
15 were difficult were addressed to him.
16 Q. Now, I would go to those issues and situations in a moment. But
17 before going on to that, when you address particular matters with
18 Mr. Cermak, at any time did he ever inform you that you should address
19 those matters with someone else?
20 A. Not that I can recall, no.
21 Q. Thank you for that. And let me take you to paragraph 5 of your
22 2008 statement, Ms. Mauro.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And, Mr. Registrar, if we could have P1099 on
24 the screen.
25 If we could have page 2 of the statement -- that is, page 3, that
1 is -- yes.
2 Q. Ms. Mauro, at paragraph 5 of your 2008 statement, you say: "In
3 page 3 of my previous statement, paragraph 3 and 4, I refer to General
4 Cermak and his aides being notified of the crimes and their responses.
5 On some occasions, I have personally spoken with General Cermak in the UN
6 compound, and I have informed him of the situation."
7 Now, could you be specific? What did you refer to as the
8 situation? What exactly did you inform Mr. Cermak?
9 A. The plight of the very few people remaining in the area and the
10 difficulties of the very sparse and isolated remaining population in the
11 sector known then as Sector South, and there are difficulties to cope
12 with surviving and the problems of arson and the problems of livelihood
13 and looting and robbing and harassment and crimes which people had
14 witnessed or were aware of.
15 Q. And -- well, you say in that same paragraph: "On these
16 occasions, he seemed willing to cooperate and always assured that the
17 matter will be looked into and that he wanted to be informed about
18 criminal activities, if any. General Cermak always assured us that the
19 situation was under control."
20 Now, at those times you addressed these matters with General
21 Cermak and he assured you that the matter was under control, did it seem
22 to you that, in fact, that was, indeed, the case?
23 A. No.
24 MS. HIGGINS: It was a leading question, Your Honour.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I don't see any leading aspect
1 of it. You know, I asked a question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Although there is some leading element, it's not
3 inappropriate to put a question in this way.
4 The question has been answered.
5 You may proceed.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. And after these conversations with Mr. Cermak, was something done
8 about the -- these issues that you raised with him?
9 A. Well, if you read my reports, it doesn't look like other reports
10 of other HRAT teams. The situation deteriorated until when we left.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you for that question.
12 Now, let me take you to paragraph 6 of your 2008 statement,
13 Ms. Mauro, where you say: "Following one of these conversations with
14 General Cermak, a few days later while on patrol, we observed crimes
15 being committed (arson). We immediately returned to Knin and informed
16 General Cermak's office, providing precise coordinates on where this
17 crime was happening. The aide for General Cermak assured us that the
18 matter would be looked upon -- looked, upon which we returned to the UN
19 camp and informed General Forand."
20 Now, did you ever receive any information after that report was
21 made to General Cermak's office, that that particular incident where you
22 provided coordinates to General Cermak's aide had been investigated into?
23 A. Well, if I recall correctly, at this -- in this period, the start
24 of the denial-type of attitude. In other words, we were not saying the
25 truth, according to the Croatian authority we were informing of and
1 General Cermak as well.
2 So from the population, no, I did not understand that that action
3 had been taken to alleviate the situation.
4 Q. Now, your answer is, you say: "Well, if I recall correctly at
5 this -- in this period, the..." There was a "denial-type of attitude.
6 In other words, we were not saying the truth, according to the Croatian
7 authority we were informing of and General Cermak as well."
8 Now, can you -- are you able to specifically refer to a
9 particular instance when General Cermak, you know, expressed this type of
11 A. There should be a letter where he expressed this type of denial.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you for that.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, can I have P36 on the screen,
15 And if we can go to the next page, Mr. Registrar, and if you
16 could just focus on -- yes.
17 Q. Ms. Mauro, I'd like to you look at this document. In fact, you
18 have referred to this document at paragraph 41 of your 2008 statement.
19 This is an HRAT report compiled by you and Mr. Edward Flynn.
20 In paragraph -- the second paragraph under paragraph number 2,
21 that is, in fact, paragraph 3, you -- it's reported, it says: "The
22 Croatian civilian police presence in the areas outside the main towns
23 remain almost non-existent. The resulting freedom this gives to roving
24 gangs of uniformed Croatian soldiers who loot and burn at will has placed
25 the few remaining residents of the countryside in Sector South in a
1 virtually continual state of fear. This situation provides a marked
2 contrast to the picture proffered by Military Governor Cermak, who
3 insisted in a letter dated 3rd September to Sector Commander Forand ...
4 that he is astonished at your statements about persecution of the poor
5 and miserable from their land."
6 Is that the letter you're referring to?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "General Cermak stated his full willingness to visit personally
9 sites where abuses are observed by the UN, but today when yet another was
10 observed (following paragraph) General Cermak was out of town."
11 And in the following paragraph: "The incident is referred to"
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, if you could just bring up --
14 focus on the next paragraph.
15 Q. -- "to the 4th September. An HRAT visited hamlets of Tintori,
16 Petrovici, and Cvijanovici" -- pardon my pronunciation -- "in the Plavno
17 valley, 20 kilometres north of Knin. Residents of all villages reported
18 a weekend replete with fear caused by roving gangs of uniformed Croatian
19 soldiers." And -- there are details of the incident. A few lines below
20 -- it says: "On returning, they surprised two uniformed soldiers of the
21 4th Split
22 Now --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Mr. President.
25 Q. "A second building was seen burning just up the hill. The
1 soldiers spoke vaguely of some other soldiers setting the blazes."
2 Now, according to this report, it says in the previous
3 paragraph that when this particular incident was observed, General Cermak
4 was out of town. Now, can you explain it, is it -- what is the
5 connection about this incident and General Cermak being out of town?
6 A. Well, because I was advised -- we reported the incident when we
7 came from this area. We passed by the office of General Cermak in Knin,
8 and we informed them that this had happened. But we were told that he
9 was out of town.
10 Q. And did you -- to whom did you provide that information? Was it
11 an official of the office or just a person there?
12 A. No. It was an official of the office. I don't recall the name.
13 I don't recall the name.
14 Q. And consequent to that report, did you -- were you informed that
15 an investigation has been carried out into that incident?
16 A. I wasn't.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I have P46 on the screen,
19 Q. And while that document is being brought up, Ms. Mauro, if I
20 could ask you to look at paragraph 33 of your 2008 statement where you
21 refer to the HRAT report for 22nd August, 1995.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, in this report, it's recorded of a meeting between you and
24 the chief of Knin, Mr. Romanic. Who else was present at this meeting,
25 that is, the meeting between you and Mr. Romanic?
1 A. Certainly, there was an interpreter, and most probably both the
2 UN CIVPOL and the UNMO were in the room with us.
3 Q. And this report also refers to a meeting with Mr. Jukic, Pavo,
4 the office in charge of civil Defence in Knin.
5 Now was this meeting taken together with Mr. Romanic and Mr. Pavo
6 Jukic, or were they two separate meetings?
7 A. It's possible. I don't recall exactly.
8 Q. Now, was the purpose of this meeting? I'm sorry. It's already
9 said: To address the concerns of security and safety for the remaining
10 population in the Plavno area.
11 Can you say, what exactly did you inform Mr. Romanic as being the
12 issue of security and safety for the inhabitants of the Plavno area?
13 What were the inhabitants facing at this particular time?
14 A. Well, eventually, when we went to the Plavno area for the first
15 time, it was quite an isolated area, and the road to get there was quite
16 difficult. And the first time we went there, the people was absolutely
17 frightened, and we found devastation all over, and also, so many animals
18 who were lying in the fields, and only older [Realtime transcript read in
19 error, "all the"] people had remained, and we were told about dead bodies
20 buried, not buried, and no electricity, no utilities whatsoever.
21 So we thought that we could draw the attention of the Croatian
22 authority on this situation because essentially everybody wanted to
23 leave, and we asked -- we went back to Knin, and we set up this meeting
24 with Mr. Romanic with the idea that we would have a meeting with the
25 remaining population together the day after or as soon as he was
1 available so that we could reassure and find a way to appease their
3 And so we set up this meeting, and -- well, the story is another
4 one, but this is the reason why I was there, and with Mr. -- civil
5 defence. It was to discuss about the various burial sites which we had
6 visited and to understand whether they had a clear idea on who was buried
7 and where and why and identification, if there was a central database for
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, just for the record. You said
10 only the older people had remained, because it reads "all the people,"
11 which is, of course, from hearing almost the same. Only the older people
12 had remained. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Now, did the -- did you have communication? Did you speak with
16 the remaining inhabitants of the Plavno area before this meeting?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did they indicate to you why they wanted to leave?
19 A. Because they were fearing for their lives.
20 Q. Now, I just wanted to go back and ask a question that I should
21 have asked you before. You mentioned an interpreter present at your
22 meetings with Mr. Romanic. When you communicated with Mr. Cermak, did
23 you communicate through an interpreter?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And whose interpreter was that? Was it a UN interpreter or
1 Mr. Cermak's interpreter?
2 A. The UN interpreter was always with me.
3 Q. And did Mr. Cermak have his own interpreter at the time?
4 A. Probably, yes, but we didn't use in our communication, as far as
5 I remember.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I call document number
7 1824, please.
8 And if we can -- Mr. Registrar, if we could move to page 2. I'm
9 sorry. It should be page 3.
10 Q. Ms. Mauro, this is one of your HRAT reports that you referred to
11 in your 2008 statement. If you could look at that last paragraph. It's
12 reported as this: "On the same day, the HRAT met Mr. Barisic, Milan
13 Ministry of Interior coordinator for Gracac area. Mr. Barisic expressed
14 his appreciation for the good cooperation established with the
15 international organisations so far. He stated that Croatian police was
16 trying to do its utmost to guarantee the safety of the Serb population
17 remaining. However, he emphasised that it was difficult to control the
18 200 square kilometre under the jurisdiction of Gracac police station.
19 "According to Mr. Barisic, the Croatian police, for security
20 reasons, refrains from patrolling the border side with Bosnia
21 southern part (in Knin direction) of Gracac AOR. In the southern part, a
22 number of individuals, former HV soldiers and thus wearing uniforms, are
23 undertaking criminal actions and are particularly aggressive. Up to now,
24 the concerned authorities brought charges against 30 to 35 of them.
25 However, for looting activities, the perpetrators are not supposed to be
1 taken into custody. Mr. Barisic could not specify which kind of charges
2 were brought against those criminals."
3 Now, my first question to you is: Was Mr. Barisic a uniformed
4 policeman or an official from the Ministry of Interior?
5 A. I don't remember how -- what was he dressing then, what was he
7 Q. And where did you meet him? At his office in Gracac or --
8 A. Yes, office.
9 Q. And was there -- who introduced Mr. Barisic as the coordinator
10 for the Ministry of Interior for Gracac area?
11 A. Himself.
12 Q. And it's reported here that he said that: "... for looting
13 activities, the perpetrators are not supposed to be taken into custody."
14 Now, what did you understand that statement to be? You reported
15 it. Well, how did you understand that?
16 A. It was tolerated, looting.
17 Q. Did you ask him what the basis for that decision was?
18 A. I asked him, So what kind of charges would eventually be brought
19 against these criminals?
20 Q. And what was his response?
21 A. No response. Otherwise, would have been written.
22 Q. Thank you for that.
23 A. Thank you.
24 Q. Did you tell him -- did he inform you as to who had given such
25 instructions as to not taking perpetrators of looting activity into
2 A. No, I didn't ask. But he was representative of Ministry of
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I move this document into
5 evidence, please. It's included in the 92 ter submission. I'll have it
6 removed from the lists.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit number P1100.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit P1100 is admitted into evidence.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Mr. Registrar, may I have document number 3062, please.
12 Mr. President, this document from page 4 onwards has a chart,
13 which has already -- the chart has been tendered into evidence already
14 under Exhibit number P688. However, for the time being, I left the chart
15 there so that I could demonstrate that this summary at page 1 to 3 is
16 based on the chart, but we will remove the chart and just -- I will only
17 tender the first three pages into evidence later on.
18 Q. Ms. Mauro, do you recognise this document?
19 A. Certainly.
20 Q. What is it?
21 A. It is a compilation of dead bodies, crimes involving death, which
22 either the UN personnel or the civilian population would bring to our
24 Q. I'd like you to look at your 2008 statement, paragraph 57, 58 and
25 59 where you refer to this list. And paragraph 58, you say -- with
1 regard to the people who were responsible for compiling this report, you
2 say: "A team comprising of Sajin Zhang, myself, Judith Jacob and the
3 interpreter was responsible for compiling this data." Now, was
4 Mr. Judith Jacob Mr. Alun Roberts's secretary?
5 A. Yeah, it was an assistant. She was working the PIO session,
6 public information.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to submit page 1, 2, 3,
9 of this document into evidence. I'll have the rest of the pages removed
10 from e-court later on.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
12 Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P1101.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit P1101 is admitted into evidence.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you.
16 Mr. Registrar, may I call document 2854 on the screen, please.
17 Q. Ms. Mauro, do you recognise this document?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What is it?
20 A. It is an analysis of the situation of the refugees who were to
21 come mainly from the last exodus from Krajina in the former Yugoslavia
22 and then in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia still.
23 Q. And where were you based at when you compiled this report?
24 A. I was based at the office in Belgrade of the UN office.
25 Q. In compiling this report, what type of research did you carry
2 A. Well, I spoke with the United Nations high commissioner for
3 refugees; I spoke with the Serbian office for refugees and IDP; and I
4 spoke with some -- Helsinki Committee, some non-governmental
5 organisations, including the Helsinki Committee. Mainly, these were the
6 main sources.
7 Q. And did you --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Can Ms. Mahindaratne please switch off the mic
9 while the witness is answering because it's very difficult to hear the
10 witness. Thank you.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
12 Q. And in carrying out that research, did you receive any
13 information as to the willingness of the Serb refugees who were in the
14 FRY and Serbia
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- to return to the Krajina?
17 A. Yes. I did receive, also, information from former inhabitants of
18 Krajina, but the information they had concerning the overall situation
19 back home was so difficult that nobody really was thinking to go back
20 except for trying to recuperate some of their belongings or their
21 property or to some assist some of the elderly that had remained there.
22 Q. You say "... information they had concerning the overall
23 situation back home was so difficult that nobody really was thinking to
24 go back..." Now, can you be more specific and clarify what you meant by
25 "so difficult"? What exactly -- what type of information were they
2 MR. MISETIC: Objection, Your Honour. If we could get more
3 foundation as to the source of this information in particular.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The witness just testified that she did have
5 information coming from the inhabitants, previous answer.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think if you --
7 MR. MISETIC: How many, who --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- apparently, the witness received
9 information about that.
10 Could you tell us from whom you received that information about
11 that being difficult, how many people you spoke about that, and whether
12 they gave any further details about the difficulties they thought would
13 be there.
14 THE WITNESS: Well, besides the people, the number of the people
15 I spoke with originating from that area, I don't remember, but I am
16 certain that my former landlady was in Belgrade with all her family and
17 all her relatives, and there were approximately 20, 30 people if we look
18 at the extended family. But then there were also the interpreters. Some
19 of them had remained in the area; not all of them moved out of
20 Sector South. So they were also a source of information, and there were
21 also other interpreters who instead had come along, and there were people
22 whom I had met during my period in Krajina, and there was also
23 difficulties for the UNHCR to organise this visit and -- and related to
24 the information they were receiving.
25 So it was -- it was -- it was an open secret.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
2 Q. Can you -- when you said it was difficult for the UNHCR to
3 organise this visit, what were you referring to? Visit to what?
4 A. Well, because at a certain stage there was this idea that the
5 UNHCR would help people to go and visit the area with an intention to
6 facilitate the return. But there were also difficulties to obtain
7 authorisation from the Croatian relevant authorities to -- to undertake
8 these visits.
9 So there were two -- two camps of obstruction for the return, if
10 you wish to -- one was the current situation on the ground, and the other
11 was the reluctance of the Croatian authorities to facilitate going to
12 see, visit, for instance.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think Ms. Mahindaratne invited you to describe the
14 difficulties, which you say now part of it was the current situation on
15 the ground.
16 Could you give us further information about what the situation on
17 the ground was so that they did not think of returning.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. So infrastructure were not restored for a
19 long time. The houses had been destroyed and were still destroyed. The
20 livelihood, which for many of them were animals and cattle, had been
21 either killed or either stolen.
22 The belongings of the people were not in the house anymore. My
23 own residence was looted, just as an example.
24 So harassment was still ongoing, and we were hearing about,
25 still, cleaning-up operations.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
2 Q. And when was it that you compiled this report? And when you're
3 referring to being in Belgrade
5 A. It was -- it is written in the report, is 6 June.
6 Q. Which year?
7 A. 13 June. 1996.
8 Q. Thank you, Ms. Mauro, for responding to my questions.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, that -- if I may tender this
10 document into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
12 Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P1102.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P1102 is admitted into evidence.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
18 Yes. The cleaning-up operations you talked about, did you still
19 receive reports on that in June 1996?
20 THE WITNESS: I personally didn't receive a report, but I heard
22 JUDGE ORIE: But was that up-to-date information on what happened
23 in, well, let's say, May, June, 1996, or would that refer to an earlier
25 THE WITNESS: I can't specify that --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: -- for you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Higgins, you're already on your feet.
4 MS. HIGGINS: Well, Your Honour, I wonder if Your Honour would
5 contemplate taking the break at this point.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that would be a good idea, that we
7 have an early break and that you will be cross-examined after the break.
8 We will have a break, and we'll resume at 4.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Higgins.
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Higgins:
13 Q. Ms. Mauro, I'm going ask you some questions on behalf of
14 Mr. Cermak, and I'd like to start with your job and the reporting
15 mechanism back between March to December 1995.
16 Do you understand?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, we know that you worked in Knin as a civil
19 affairs officer from March to December 1995. Can you tell me who your
20 superior in Knin was, please?
21 A. Previously, before Al-Alfi, Mr. Al-Alfi was Mr. Amir Kotnik
23 Q. And is it correct that in your position you were involved in the
24 daily patrols in and around the Knin area?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Now, after you patrolled together with your colleagues, you would
2 then be involved in the preparation of daily reports on behalf of HRAT.
3 Is that right?
4 A. Well, the HRAT didn't start up to August.
5 Q. Let's take it from the 7th of August onwards, if we may.
6 A. Of course.
7 Q. So from that time, you were involved in the preparation of daily
8 reports. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'm going to make a pause between when you and I answer each
11 other just for the purpose of interpretation.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Just so that we understand as clearly as possible, during your
14 work as a member of a HRAT team, how many people were in each HRAT
16 A. Generally was an UN CIVPOL and UNMO and an interpreter. And at
17 times, we joined with the civil affairs -- sorry, the UN human rights
18 officer, and occasionally the UNHCR officers were also coming with us.
19 Q. So between four to six people in reach HRAT? Would that be
20 approximately correct?
21 A. Well, the usual composition was a UN civil affairs, a UN CIVPOL,
22 and a military observer and an interpreter.
23 Q. Thank you. On average, how many HRAT teams were patrolling at
24 any one time?
25 A. Depended, because we didn't receive the additional staff, but at
1 the beginning we were three.
2 Q. And is it right that all team members after they had come back
3 from the patrols would then have a debriefing session in Mr. Al-Alfi's
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And he, just for the record, was a civil affairs coordinator. Is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And is it also right that all the HRAT teams who had been out
10 that day, however composed, would take part in those debriefings?
11 A. Generally would be the civil affairs officers, all of them, and
12 the head of the departments, UNMO, or CIVPOL, not all the CIVPOL who were
13 with us or not all the UNMOs who were with us, but UNHCR as well.
14 Q. How many people might have input during those debriefing sessions
15 into providing information for the reports that were produced?
16 A. Well, everybody had an input on what they had observed during the
18 Q. And how many people -- can you tell me an approximation of how
19 many might be at that debriefing meeting, given the number of teams and
20 the people involved?
21 A. Coordinator; deputy; human rights office; and we were three civil
22 affairs officers; plus we had the head of UNMO; the head of CIVPOL;
23 military were also present from the General Forand's office; and UNHCR;
24 and then at a later stage, also, the ECMM were with us.
25 Q. And again, just so that I understand, would the purpose of those
1 debriefing sessions be effectively to pool the information that you had
2 and a report, a single report be produced, or were there a number of
3 reports produced?
4 A. It depended. Generally, there was a single report, but sometimes
5 there were cumulative reports, but I needed to specify that we had a
6 colleague covering the Korenica area, and he attended occasionally, not
7 all the time. But he was providing reports and sending to us on daily
9 Q. Where would those reports be sent to, Ms. Mauro?
10 A. The headquarters in Zagreb
11 Q. In terms of the debriefing session, would Mr. Flynn often attend
12 those sessions?
13 A. Always, when he was there.
14 Q. And what about General Forand?
15 A. Sometimes. But usually it was Colonel Leslie or someone else
16 from General Forand's office.
17 Q. Now, you've clarified in your 2008 statement that the HRAT
18 reports would, of course, include information from the UN components such
19 as the UNMOs, the UN CIVPOL, and the UNHCR, details of which would be set
20 out in the report. Is that right?
21 A. If I understand correctly your question, there is an
22 misunderstanding, because the reports were compiled by the HRAT. At
23 times, there were some information from UNHCR, but if you read, there are
24 not so many at times. So it was the HRAT which was compiling the report.
25 Q. Now, those HRAT reports also contained information about meetings
1 that had been held between various UN officials, for example, Mr.
2 Al-Alfi, General Forand, with local individuals such as Mr. Cermak. Is
3 that a correct assessment?
4 A. There was some reference to it.
5 Q. Yes. Now, during the course of your two statements that you have
6 given to the Prosecution, you have been asked to review over 50 HRAT
7 reports, most of which - it's fair to say - are evidence in this trial
8 already, Ms. Mauro.
9 Just, again, for the sake of clarity so I understand, is it right
10 that having gone through those reports, the aspects that you were able to
11 speak to and that you knew about from talking with others are the aspects
12 that have you set out in your witness statement, where you comment upon
13 those reports.
14 A. Well, actually, most of the reports are my own reports.
15 Q. A number of the reports are uninitialed. Do you recall that?
16 A. Show me.
17 Q. Well, I'll come back to that if I may.
18 What I'm asking you is: Your knowledge of events, as I
19 understand, Ms. Mauro, you're not saying that you had personal knowledge
20 of everything contained in those reports; for example, some of the
21 information would have been told to you by others evidently involved in
22 the field elsewhere. Would you accept that?
23 A. Not necessarily, in the sense that when we -- in part of the
24 report I was always involved firsthand, if there is my initial there.
25 Q. Well, I'll come on to dealing with some of the reports in a
2 Let me just ask you now about Mr. Cermak's arrival and your
3 contact with him. Again, you can take it from me or look at the
4 statements before you, if you prefer. In your statement in 2000, at page
5 3, you say: "I can remember General Cermak arriving earlier on after the
6 attack and often being available to talk about the problems that we
8 And that paragraph was read out to you by Ms. Mahindaratne, if
9 you recall.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you aware or did you come to know at any stage that
12 Mr. Cermak came to Knin on the 6th of August? Is that something that you
13 came to know at some stage?
14 A. If I remember correctly, I saw him, if it was not 6, it was 7 or
16 Q. And during your stay in Knin and your interactions in the UN
17 camp, did you also come to know early on that part of Mr. Cermak's
18 function was to assist the UN in Sector South?
19 A. Yes. Well, to assist the UN in Sector South, to -- I mean, our
20 understanding was that he was there to assist the people in Sector South
21 and to facilitate the UN work.
22 Q. And the facilitation of the UN work meant actually assisting with
23 practical problems that the UN were facing, for example, the recovery of
24 stolen vehicles. Did you know about that?
25 A. Well, we were not really facing that problems in that period. We
1 were, rather, trying to draw the attention of the authorities on the
2 problems that the people were facing. That was our main function because
3 we were totally aware that Croatia
4 Q. You may not have been aware of the question of the UN stolen
5 vehicles, but did you come to know that it was an issue for General
6 Forand, for example, on which he corresponded with Mr. Cermak?
7 A. I was a political humanitarian officer there. I was not involved
8 in security as such.
9 Q. Now, the problems that we encountered, as you refer to, those
10 problems obviously included the people who were within the UN camp from
11 the area, correct?
12 A. The overall situation.
13 Q. Yeah. And the overall situation and those problems also
14 included, would you agree, issues concerning normalisation of life
15 post-Operation Storm, for example, the restoration of water, restoration
16 of electricity. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Also, the workings of the hospital, the shops, the banks and
19 commerce in and around Knin. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, we know from your statement that you came across Mr. Cermak
22 in the UN compound.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are you able to give me a date to assist me with that?
25 A. Early -- quite early in August.
1 Q. All right. Now, do you recall, for example, or did it come to
2 your knowledge that Mr. Cermak was providing assistance to the displaced
3 people in the camp by way of food, blankets, cigarettes? Did you come to
4 know about that?
5 A. At the beginning, in any case, were not enough because we didn't
6 even have food for ourselves because we were cut out of supplies.
7 Q. Did you know about the setting-up of a public kitchen, which was
8 actually located in the garrison building to assist with provision of
9 food to the camp?
10 A. I guess it came at a later stage.
11 Q. Did you come to know about that provision of food from the
13 A. I didn't know who was providing that food.
14 Q. Now, to go back to the wording of your statement, in 2008, you
15 say at paragraph 5, so that you can follow if would you like to: "On
16 some occasions, I have personally spoken with General Cermak in the UN
17 compound, and I have informed him of the situation."
18 Do you have that before you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You were asked in your examination-in-chief as to what you talked
21 to Mr. Cermak about, and would it be fair to summarize in this way, that
22 you talked to him about the problems that were persisting in the area and
23 issues of general crime that was occurring, wasn't specific examples that
24 you brought to his attention. Would that be fair?
25 A. Well, we also brought to him specific examples.
1 Q. What were those?
2 A. Plavno valley when it was burning, despite the assurances of the
3 contrary, and other incidents.
4 Q. Well, that's the Grubori incident that you are talking about,
5 isn't it?
6 A. No. There was another one.
7 Q. And when did you provide notification to him?
8 A. When we went to his office, but he was out of town.
9 Q. Was that on the 4th of September?
10 A. No. Well, I should look into the reporting.
11 Q. Well, please do so, if you would care to take the opportunity so
12 that we can be clear about it, because that's the occasion that you have
13 told us about in-chief.
14 A. But we went already through this, right, where we informed him
15 about an arson incident.
16 Q. Yes. There is -- let me take you, perhaps, to be of assistance,
17 to your statement, where you recall providing specific reference --
18 A. Here it is. Yes. You know, I should look -- because it's
19 paragraph 6 in fact. But I should look into the report, the single
20 individual report, and -- right? So you have in paragraph 6.
21 Q. Can you read paragraph 6 very carefully to yourself for a moment?
22 Because I have a particular question that I'd like to ask you, so if can
23 you just reread that?
24 A. Done.
25 Q. Thank you. The question is this: On rereading that paragraph,
1 is that not in fact the incident of the burning that you came across in
2 Grubori on the 25th of August that you --
3 A. No.
4 Q. Can I finish my question, please, Ms. Mauro, that you came across
5 and reported to the office, you say, of General Cermak. Is that not one
6 and the same incident?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How can you be so sure?
9 A. Because I remember that Grubori was a very long day for all of
10 us, and I don't even remember that I was going to the office of Cermak
11 myself, but I do remember that after Grubori, of course, we kept the
12 Plavno under scrutiny, so we went back a few days later, and we had a
13 similar incident. But there -- I'm certain there are reports about this
14 other incident --
15 Q. We'll come on to Grubori just so that you know.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. But this paragraph 6, you say that you informed General Cermak's
18 office. Who was it in General Cermak's office that you informed?
19 A. There were more people. There was one person who came to us, and
20 we left -- the message, we left to the coordinator. Then we went to the
22 Q. So you're not after this time able to give me the name of the
24 A. No.
25 Q. Can you give me a HRAT report in which this incident is recorded,
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I? In fact, in
3 examination-in-chief I called up document P36, which records the matter
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, you...
6 MS. HIGGINS:
7 Q. Can you ask you this, Ms. Mauro: You've said there were several
8 occasions on which specifics were given. You've drawn my attention to
9 this one that you distinguish from Grubori. Can I ask you to provide me
10 with any others, please, specific incidents that were reported to the
11 office, as you say, of Mr. Cermak?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President --
15 THE WITNESS: Not through me.
16 MS. HIGGINS: Thank you.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I just wish to point out that there is another
19 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what you're going to say,
20 Ms. Mahindaratne. If there's any additional matter you'd like to raise,
21 of course, then in re-examination you have opportunity to do that.
22 I think where Ms. Higgins specifically asked whether there was a
23 report and whether since this was dealt with in examination-in-chief, I
24 think it was not inappropriate to point at P36. But we should refrain
25 from intervening or interfering with the examination by the other party
1 at loose grounds.
2 So unless there's really something that you have thought over to
3 be fully appropriate now to raise; otherwise, you should keep it for
5 MS. HIGGINS: If I could just have a moment, Your Honour.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MS. HIGGINS: Thank you.
8 Q. Let's go back to the UN camp, because I'm still interested in the
9 contact that you had with Mr. Cermak. And let's go back, perhaps, to the
10 7th, and it may jog your memory, Ms. Mauro, and if we consider that as a
11 matter of record that was the day on which the Akashi delegation arrived,
12 something I know you recall from your 2000 statement.
13 Is that right?
14 A. I'm not sure I recall the day. I recall that the Akashi
15 delegation arrived.
16 Q. Were you part of the group that spoke with Mr. Akashi?
17 A. No. I just saw him.
18 Q. Do you recall whether you saw Mr. Cermak that day?
19 A. I think so.
20 Q. Do you recall whether you spoke to him that day?
21 A. Not sure.
22 Q. Okay. Did you come to hear through your debriefing sessions
23 about Mr. Cermak's, as it was recorded, strong desire - words of
24 Mr. Akashi - for all those people who were in the camp to stay in Knin
25 and remain living there?
1 A. I'm not sure I understand your question.
2 Q. Going back to the incident of Mr. Akashi's delegation arriving,
3 did it come to your attention through the debriefing sessions that it had
4 been reported by Mr. Akashi that Mr. Cermak had a strong desire for those
5 people in the camp to remain living in and around Knin from where they
6 had come from?
7 A. In that two days, our priority was to get food, water, and
8 freedom of movement because we were, in fact, not allowed to go anywhere,
9 and we had no supplies, either, because we had finished them. Also, it
10 was nearly finished because we were hosting a number of people who were
11 not foreseen.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mauro, if I may stop you there. I do understand
13 that you had other priorities at that moment, but Ms. Higgins
14 specifically asked you whether you learned at any debriefing session
15 about this wish, strong desire by Mr. Cermak for those living in the camp
16 to remain living in and around Knin. Even though you may have had many
17 others, perhaps, even for you, more pressing matters on your mind, that
18 is what Ms. Higgins would like to know from you.
19 THE WITNESS: No. I remember we were discussing about Sarinic
20 letter. That was one part, important part of the debriefing at that
22 MS. HIGGINS:
23 Q. Were you in the UN camp on the 8th; do you recall?
24 A. It depends what time and --
25 Q. Well, let me try and orientate you by informing you that on that
1 date, we have in fact a HRAT report, which records --
2 MS. HIGGINS: If I can have on the screen to assist P29, please,
3 Mr. Registrar, second page at the bottom.
4 Q. A report of Mr. Cermak addressing a committee of the dismissed
5 persons at the compound.
6 A. I was not present at this -- this meeting.
7 Q. All right. Well, let me just ask you this, whether through,
8 again, the method and mechanism of the debriefing sessions that you had,
9 did it come to your attention, if you see at the very bottom of that page
10 the second line from the bottom: "Today, however, General Cermak came to
11 the compound and in the UN's presence delivered to a committee of the
13 MS. HIGGINS: The next page, please, Mr. Registrar.
14 Q. And you can read it for yourself, Ms. Mauro. It concerns coming
15 to convey the Croatian government's position concerning their
16 reintegration and in a reassuring tone informing those displaced persons
17 of the range of the rights that would be guaranteed to them in Knin and
18 in the region which extended to citizenship, food, assistance, full
19 employment, et cetera.
20 You'll see there an observation that Mr. Cermak stressed that
23 Do you see that, and did it come to your attention either at the
24 time or shortly thereafter that that was in fact the position that
25 Mr. Cermak had put forward?
1 A. Well, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, again, we know from the way that have you worded
3 it in your statement that you recalled him coming to the UN compound to
4 inquire about the situation there. Did you come to see, in fact, the
5 document that was issued as a result of Mr. Cermak's address? And let me
6 give you the opportunity of seeing that record.
7 MS. HIGGINS: It's D300, please, Mr. Registrar.
8 Q. Ms. Mauro, were you able to read Croatian at the time you were
9 present in Knin?
10 A. No.
11 Q. If you could just take a look at the English translation and see
12 whether or not that was something that came to your attention, please.
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Now, in terms of the conversations that you had with Mr. Cermak,
15 can you give me any indication of how many conversations you had with
17 A. A few.
18 Q. And did all of those take place in the UN compound itself?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I know from your statement, again, in 2008, at page 3, that you
21 refer to the fact that you recorded your observations at that time in an
22 individual notebook. That's what you say in your statement, and please,
23 again, feel free to take a look. It's page 3, paragraph 12.
24 Do you still have your notebooks from that time, Ms. Mauro?
25 A. No, unfortunately. But excuse me, which one you are referring
2 Q. Paragraph 12 of the 2008 statement. "During our patrols, we
3 recorded our observations in our individual notebooks."
4 A. Oh, yes.
5 Q. I'm interested in whether or not those are still in existence.
7 Do you know what happened to your notebooks?
8 A. Burned. Thrown away.
9 Q. So the answer is --
10 A. Shredded.
11 Q. -- you don't know.
12 A. Shredded.
13 Q. They were shredded?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know when they were shredded?
16 A. By ourselves. After we were compiling the notebook, when was it
17 finished, usually we wouldn't keep because the information were recorded
18 on the computer.
19 Q. Did you ever attend any formal meeting with Mr. Cermak himself at
20 the garrison building?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you, as a patroller, ever request an official meeting with
24 A. No.
25 Q. Why -- why not? Was there any particular reason why that
1 wouldn't have been appropriate?
2 A. Well, usually it was relating to General Forand and -- and
3 Mr. Al-Alfi, so it was sufficient.
4 Q. And the conversations, a couple of conversations that you had in
5 the compound, presumably those were in the presence of other people who
6 were there at the time. Is that right?
7 A. Like the interpreter.
8 Q. Yes. Anyone else present during the conversations with
9 Mr. Cermak?
10 A. It's possible.
11 Q. Now, at page 2 of your 2008 statement, paragraph 5, you're
12 referring to the occasions on which you spoke with him, and your
13 observations were these: "On these occasions, he seemed willing to
14 cooperate and always assured us that the matter will be looked into and
15 that he wanted to be informed about criminal activities, if any ..."
16 It's the paragraph that was read to you earlier. Do you see
17 that, Ms. Mauro?
18 A. Sure.
19 Q. Is it right to say that from the brief contact that you had with
20 Mr. Cermak in the UN compound that he was cooperative and trying to help
22 A. That's what I said.
23 Q. Yes. Is it fair to say that given your position in Knin at that
24 time, you weren't privy to the knowledge of what resources he had
25 available to him or what he was authorised to do? It's not something you
1 knew about, was it, Ms. Mauro?
2 A. Well, he seemed to the point of reference.
3 Q. I understand that. My question is a bit more specific, in terms
4 of whether you knew the resources he had available to him and whether you
5 knew the authority he had to assist.
6 Do you see the difference?
7 A. The resources, I don't know.
8 Q. Yeah.
9 A. The authority, I -- it was stated because he wanted to be
10 informed and he wanted to -- and he was reassuring. He was saying that
11 the situation was under control, so -- and others were -- I think also
12 the chief of police referred to -- to General Cermak, like, I can't
13 really, but General Cermak...
14 So it was a point of reference, and he was very reassuring in his
16 Q. A point of reference, I don't disagree with you, Ms. Mauro. My
17 question was centered more on whether or not, for example, you ever
18 received or knew about in your position his terms of reference, what his
19 actual function was in Croatia
20 A. Well, at the beginning there were no civilian authorities so he
21 had a overall jurisdiction over the area.
22 Q. Now, in your evidence in chief, you told us that your assumptions
23 about his authority were based on his contact with the Sector South chief
24 or, effectively, the higher echelons of the hierarchy.
25 Do you recall that?
1 A. We didn't have any other one to really relate to, except the
2 chief of police, Romanic, in fact, for a while because then it was --
3 suddenly, he left.
4 Q. Yes. But in turn, you have said that he had overall jurisdiction
5 over the area. Ms. Mauro, you don't even know what Mr. Cermak's correct
6 job title was, did you? You got your information from those around you?
7 A. General Cermak, yes.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Military governor.
10 Q. We'll come on to that in a moment.
11 Did you know how many staff Mr. Cermak had?
12 A. No.
13 Q. In your statement, you refer to his aides. Who did you mean by
15 A. There were always soldiers around him.
16 Q. What were their names?
17 A. I don't know. Because in fact he was the only interlocutor, if
18 you want to ...
19 Q. Did you know about the structure that had been developed between
20 the UN and the Croatian government whereby a liaison system had been set
21 up and officers designated to assist with liaison work?
22 A. Well, I recall that in Zadar there was an office which had a
23 civilian office, in fact, which was supposed to be our point of
24 reference, and I also read the report, and I recall hearing our
25 coordinator, that he was trying to set up a meeting for weeks and weeks,
1 and then we finally managed to have a meeting after a few weeks or a few
2 months - I don't remember, few weeks, probably - and I was present at
3 that meet.
4 Q. In terms of the aides that you have referred to, are you in fact
5 referring to liaison officers, for example, a Mr. Dondo, or a
6 Mr. Lukovic? Do those names ring a bell?
7 A. No. Probably 13 years ago, yes. Now, absolutely, no.
8 Q. Had you ever met Mr. Cermak before he came to Knin?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you know when he was assigned to his position in Knin?
11 A. When I saw him.
12 Q. No, did you know when --
13 A. No, as far as I know, when I saw him. But I don't know anything
15 Q. Did you ever see the Croatian documents themselves assigning
16 Mr. Cermak to his position?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And just for the sake of clarity, to come back to a question I
19 raised earlier, it's right that you never saw any precise terms of
20 reference as to what Mr. Cermak's actual job was, correct?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Post-Operation Storm, were you personally given any formal
23 instruction as to how the new civilian and military administration was to
24 function in and around Knin?
25 A. Well, that's what I already said. We -- we knew that our point
1 of reference was General Cermak and that the -- the civilian authorities
2 were not yet in place and were to about be established, and then, I don't
3 remember how many days or weeks later, Mr. Romanic came.
4 Q. My question is a very, again, specific one, Ms. Mauro, if I can
5 come back to it. Were you given any formal instruction as to how the new
6 civilian and military administration was to function in and around Knin?
7 A. No more than what I said before.
8 Q. Well, what you said before was that Mr. Cermak was a point of
9 reference, which I don't disagree with. But my question was about formal
11 A. Well, we learned that in Zadar they were going to establish
12 another point of reference for us, but no, it was very confusing, I must
13 say, from this point of view. There was not clear -- clear idea on what
14 was happening, no.
15 Q. And building on that point you raised about confusion, is it fair
16 to say that there was an element of confusion as to in fact who
17 Mr. Cermak was and what his job was?
18 A. No. No, because in fact most of the people in the area were
20 Q. All right. Well, given your particular function and relatively
21 limited time in the area by the events of post-Operation Storm, is it
22 accurate to say that you were not familiar with the functioning and
23 operating of the Croatian military structure post-Operation Storm?
24 A. This was a field of interest for UNMOs, not for me.
25 Q. So you would agree that you were not familiar with that aspect,
1 would you?
2 A. No. I don't know how the Croatian military structure was.
3 Q. And you didn't know how a garrison functioned in Croatia at that
4 time, did you, Ms. Mauro?
5 A. I'm not a military person, Ms. Higgins.
6 Q. No. The reason I'm asking you this is because you feel able to
7 make points about overall jurisdiction of individuals, so I'm sure you
8 can understand that I'm asking to see the remits of your knowledge,
9 Ms. Mauro.
10 Now, the next question is: Either at the time or sometime
11 thereafter, did you come to know that there was no such position in
13 A. Not exactly.
14 Q. When asked by my learned friend to give the factors upon which
15 you based your assumption that Mr. Cermak was the main authority in the
16 area, you stated that it was "... undoubtful because within our own
17 hierarchy the person we were relating to was him..." and that in fact,
18 there was liaison between General Forand and General Cermak, correct?
19 A. Not exactly.
20 Q. That's what you said, Ms. Mauro, so perhaps you can help me.
21 A. Yes. I said that he was liaising formally with Mr. Forand and
22 Mr. Al-Alfi, but that he was -- he was the only person who we could
23 relate to. That's what I'm saying -- that's what I said, and that's what
24 I repeat. There was nobody else we could relate to.
25 Q. The information that you had about his authority and his title
1 was based on what you had been told by others within the UN. Is that
3 A. My colleagues.
4 Q. Your colleagues. Where did you get the information that
5 Mr. Cermak was the governor of Knin from?
6 A. He was referred to as such.
7 Q. By who?
8 A. Everybody.
9 Q. Do you remember who told you that information?
10 A. It was not an information. He was called like that.
11 Q. Within the UN?
12 A. Yes. We -- none of us was really speaking Croatian there, so I
13 don't know if also Croatians would refer to them this way, but the
14 interpreters used this translation.
15 Q. Did you ever come to know that he was appointed in fact as the
16 garrison commander and that was his correct title?
17 A. No, I didn't know he was a garrison commander.
18 Q. I'd like to now move to another topic of questioning, and I'd
19 like to move to the issue of notification to Mr. Cermak about crimes that
20 were happening in the area?
21 Just so that you have a point of reference, Ms. Mauro, I'm going
22 to first of all be looking at your 2000 statement, page 3 of that
24 On page 3 - I'll read it back to you - it states: "I know that
25 Cermak and his aides were told on a number of occasions about killings,
1 lootings and burnings of Serbian houses."
2 Do you remember that part?
3 A. Mm-hm.
4 Q. And again, you know that because you were told that by others in
5 the UN who were higher up than you who had the meetings with Mr. Cermak.
6 Is that right?
7 A. Yeah. Besides this few times we met, but then, yes. We were
8 sharing information among UN people.
9 Q. You also say: "I recall Croatian officials there" -- on the same
10 page -- "saying something like, it must be revenge for what has gone on
11 before, and some of the people responsible are uncontrolled groups."
12 Was that a common point of view at that time as to the cause of
13 some of the crimes?
14 A. Well, the revenge was definitely one of -- one of the issue, yes.
15 Q. You didn't ascribe in your statement any particular Croatian
16 official, and I presume that's to do so with the passage of time and
17 you're unable to do so?
18 A. That's absolutely correct. I can remember there were some
19 parliamentarian coming. There was a delegation of parliamentarian coming
20 once. There was some Red Cross officials coming from time to time.
21 Q. Now, I want to move onto another part, and this concerns --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Higgins, may I seek some clarification of that
23 last answer. You said you do not know exactly who told you, and then you
24 give two -- you refer to two type of persons, parliamentarians, Red Cross
25 people. Did you want to say it was either of the two or either some of
1 the -- one of the parliamentarians or one of the Red Cross people, or did
2 you want to say it was I heard it from one of the parliamentarians and I
3 also heard it -- it's not clear for me what your answer was.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall exactly, but I remember that the
5 revenge was one of the reasons that it was advocated for what was
6 happening by parliamentarians. But you know, there was this big
7 delegation coming in, and you would talk to someone in the outskirts. It
8 was --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You now use the plural "parliamentarians."
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier also referred to the Red Cross. Did you
12 hear it from one person, whether parliamentarian or Red Cross, or did you
13 hear it from more persons?
14 THE WITNESS: I heard from more persons, but I don't remember who
15 they were.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. HIGGINS:
19 Q. I want to come onto, now, a specific example going back, again,
20 to your 2000 statement, and if I may read it back to you so that you have
21 it before you. The passage is the following: "I am aware that General
22 Forand regularly complained to General Cermak, and I'm aware of a letter
23 or report sent by Cermak to Forand, suggesting that the houses were not
24 being burnt and that there was no problem."
25 Do you recall that aspect of your statement?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, Ms. Mauro, did you ever see the document that you refer to
3 there yourself and the signature on that document?
4 A. I'm not sure.
5 Q. We know from your evidence in chief that on the 4th of September
6 - and my learned friend referred to P36, which came up on the screen
7 during your evidence - you were told that on the 4th of September, that
8 Mr. Cermak was out of town. Do you recall that?
9 A. I recall that we went through that.
10 Q. Yes. Do you know or did you know at the time when Mr. Cermak
11 left town, when he came back from town? Were you given that information
12 at any point?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You referred in your evidence in chief to the denial attitude,
15 and that's something I want to briefly address with you now.
16 In those debriefing sessions that were held with Mr. Al-Alfi,
17 were you also made aware at that time of Mr. Cermak's position that
18 crimes were indeed taking place and were labelled by him as a shame on
20 A. Possible.
21 Q. Can I see if I can assist you by referring back to
22 contemporaneous records of Mr. Al-Alfi's, because that might jog your
24 MS. HIGGINS: Mr. Registrar, if I could have D56, please, on the
25 screen, and if I could have page 3 of that document, please.
1 Q. Just for the record, Ms. Mauro, this is a UN report from
2 Mr. Al-Alfi dated the 18th of August, and it's sent to Mr. Pavo Pitkinen
3 [phoen] in the UN HQ in Zagreb
4 had that afternoon with General Cermak, and he refers to others who were
5 present during that meeting.
6 If you look at paragraph 2 on that page, it reads that: "During
7 the meeting, I also brought to the attention of General Cermak our
8 concern about the continuing reports of houses and farms set on fire in
9 the villages and looting, and asked him about the measures taken from his
10 side to stop such acts. General Cermak shared this concern with us and
11 expressed his unhappiness about its continuation. He promised tough
12 action against those who commit such acts. He also explained that some
13 of the acts may be carried out by civilians who returned to the area and
14 seek revenge, taking advantage of the lifting of restrictions on their
15 movement in the area."
16 Ms. Mauro, there is no aspect there, is there, of a denial
17 attitude in respect of his response to Mr. Al-Alfi?
18 A. No. There was in this letter in September there.
19 Q. I'm asking you now about --
20 A. No. I said no.
21 Q. -- this document in context.
22 A. Mm-hm.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. HIGGINS: D151, please, Mr. Registrar.
25 Q. Just for the record, again, as the document is being pulled up
1 onto the screen, this is almost a week later. Again, it's the same
2 format of reports from Mr. Al-Alfi to the UNCRO HQ in Zagreb, and it's
3 dated the 24th of August.
4 On the first page, we see reference there to 1330 hours in the
5 afternoon, General Forand had a meeting with General Cermak, meeting was
6 held in the office of General Cermak, and the PHAC participated in the
7 meeting. Now the PHAC was Mr. Al-Alfi; is that right? Civil affairs
8 coordinator, yes?
9 A. If this is from him.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can I go to the next page, please, paragraph 5. Again, there,
13 you see reference to the fact that: "We brought the continuation of
14 burning houses and looting in the area to the attention of General Cermak
15 and asked him to such" -- "stop", rather -- "such acts. He accepted this
16 fact regarding the continuation of such incidents..." and you can read
17 to whom he attributed them to if you continue to read the paragraph. I'm
18 not going to read it all out to you. You can see there, there's
19 reference by him to the fact that in his opinion the area is very vast,
20 and he would be lying if he told us that nothing of this sort would
21 continue to happen.
22 Do you see that?
23 A. What we were not understanding is why the strict orders were not
24 reaching the people on the ground.
25 Q. Well, Ms. Mauro, you're not able to assist me with the de facto,
1 the factual authority that Mr. Cermak actually had, are you?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mauro is telling us what came to her mind and,
3 of course, she should not explore that. But, Ms. Higgins, she told us
4 what they did not understand at the time --
5 MS. HIGGINS: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is a personal observation, and she is
7 entitled to include that in her answer.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. HIGGINS: Thank you.
10 Q. And finally, if I could have onto the screen, please, D59.
11 Ms. Mauro, during your time in Knin, as the document is coming
12 onto the screen, were you able to access some of the Croatian media
13 articles that were being published?
14 A. When I had time.
15 Q. Yes. Was there someone there to assist with the translation of
16 those articles?
17 A. Of course, yes.
18 Q. Yes. Can I ask to you look at this one in particular, which is
19 an article from one of the main newspapers, Slobodna Dalmacija, and it's
20 dated 7th of September, 1995.
21 It's an interview with Mr. Cermak, and you can see the title
22 there: "There is no place for looters in the Croatian army." And if you
23 just read that article to yourself for a moment.
24 Was that an article that came to your attention at that stage?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You can see that the article refers to the launching of
2 operations to resolve problems there related to illegal appropriation of
3 apartments, looting, and the torching of homes.
4 Was it something that came up ever in those debriefing meetings,
5 Ms. Mauro?
6 A. Well, in our debriefing it came up the opposite.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. So this couldn't come up because, indeed, we were every day
9 noticing that, unfortunately, it was continuing and that people were
10 still in a very dreadful situation, and dead bodies were exhumed --
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. -- and found, elderly people.
13 Q. I understand that.
14 A. So, no, we didn't come to our debriefing up, unfortunately, that
15 there were elements of substantial and determined action to stop what we
16 were denouncing.
17 Q. The reason I'm asking you is, of course, because some of those
18 reports were from Mr. Al-Alfi himself who headed up those debriefing
19 meetings, so I'm trying to give you an opportunity to comment upon those.
20 A. If I may continue, probably we understood that there was a
21 difference between facts and words.
22 Q. Well, you've assisted me as far as you can with those reports.
23 What I'd like to finally deal with with you is the issue of Grubori, if I
24 can deal with it briefly.
25 You have already explained to us and we've seen the report
1 whereby you go and take your concerns to Mr. Romanic, you have a meeting
2 with Mr. Romanic, and you ask him to come to a meeting with the local
3 residents in the Plavno valley --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- which you set up to take place on the 25th of August. Is
6 that right?
7 A. Well, I guess he set up because we could have gone immediately,
8 seen the conditions of the people there; we would have gone back
9 straightaway. But we gave him, obviously, the opportunity to decide when
10 it was more convenient to him, so he set the date.
11 Q. And we know from one of your reports, the report that deals with
12 this meeting, that it was proposed that both he and Mr. Pasic, who was
13 the governor's commissioner, would both attend Plavno on the 25th of
15 A. I don't remember Mr. Pasic. It's possible, but I don't remember
16 Mr. Pasic in this moment. I remember Mr. Romanic. He would come,
17 obviously, with someone else but ...
18 Q. If you take it from me, those are the names that are referred to
19 in your own HRAT report; and if you want to see it, I'm sure you can be
20 provided with a copy of it. It's P46.
21 A. I'm not denying that Mr. Pasic wouldn't come. Would come, sorry.
22 Q. Now, you were present with a team on the 25th when you were
23 visiting the hamlet of Zoric in the Plavno area, and that's when you saw
24 smoke on the other side of the mountain whereby your team moved to travel
25 to what we know to be Grubori, correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it right that on that day, you were present with Mr. Flynn?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Roberts?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Romassev, member of UN CIVPOL?
7 A. It is possible. There was UN CIVPOL, but I don't remember his
8 name. They were not always the same person, so they were rotating. So I
9 don't remember everyday the name of every day --
10 Q. Sure, I understand. Can you assist me with who else was there as
11 a member of that group?
12 A. Yes. Was also someone from UNHCR. I mean, the person
13 responsible for the UNHCR office.
14 Q. Do you remember the name?
15 A. Of course I do.
16 Q. Yeah? Who was it?
17 A. Olivier Mouquat.
18 Q. How do you spell the surname, please?
19 A. M-O-U-Q-U-A-T.
20 Q. Thank you. Anyone else?
21 A. As international staff, I don't remember. Probably, there was
22 also an UNMO. Most probably there was, but I don't remember. I remember
23 these people.
24 Q. Now I want to ask -- sorry. Please continue.
25 A. No. And also about Alun Roberts, I'm not completely certain,
1 actually, about Alun Roberts. I'm not completely certain if he joined us
2 after but ... yeah.
3 Q. I'd like to ask you about when you come to leave Grubori and you
4 go back to Knin.
5 A. Mm-hm.
6 Q. You've told us from your first statement that that afternoon at
7 1630, "... we reported to General Cermak's office so they would respond
8 but there was no response that day."
9 Do you recall that part of your statement at page 5?
10 A. I -- I repeat that there was another instance when we went, and
11 there was no response, also, so probably was two times because it's --
12 what you are trying to ask me?
13 Q. I'm only asking you to confirm that at 1630 --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- on the 25th, you went to the office of Mr. Cermak as you call
16 it, and you went there with who? Do you recall?
17 A. Well, I told you already. I don't even remember if I was part of
18 the team who went in the office of General Cermak that day. I remember
19 that there was another instance, always in Plavno area, where I went,
20 part of the team in General Cermak's office. But I do recall that part
21 of the people who were with us did go to inform General Cermak.
22 Q. And is it right that none of those individuals who went actually
23 spoke to Mr. Cermak himself? They, rather, spoke to a Mr. Dondo, who was
24 one of the HV liaison officers. Can you help me with that?
25 A. I'm afraid not.
1 Q. Right. So you're not sure whether you went into the building or
2 you stayed outside. Is that right?
3 A. I'm not even sure whether -- because we were more cars.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I'm not even sure whether I went to the office or I went directly
6 to the headquarter.
7 Q. Can you help me with whether or not you were the individual who
8 had a conversation with Mr. Dondo?
9 A. Me?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. If I'm telling that I don't even remember that I went to the
13 Q. Well, I'm asking you about whether you recall a conversation, so
14 you can help me with that, perhaps.
15 A. I said already no.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether or not or can you remember
17 whether the matter was reported that day by one your team to the police
18 in Knin?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You can't remember, or you don't know?
21 A. No. No. I -- I don't remember.
22 Q. Okay. Did you have any knowledge about how crime investigations
23 worked and functioned within Croatian society at that point,
24 post-Operation Storm?
25 A. Only what I was told about looting, for instance. It was not
2 Q. Did you know anything about the responsibility of the crime
3 police to investigate incidents that had taken place? Was that something
4 within your knowledge as a patroller?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. But we were not asked to refer to crime police. We never were
8 asked to refer to crime police.
9 Q. I'm just asking you about your knowledge of how the crime police
10 worked. You understand, Ms. Mauro?
11 A. Well, you're asking me the responsibility of the crime police,
12 but we were not even aware that there was a crime police. So how we
13 could know that they were responsible to investigate incident?
14 Q. You had a meeting with Mr. Romanic. How many meetings with him
15 did you have?
16 A. I didn't count them, and remember, 13 years later, surely not.
17 Q. Did you know who the commander of the Knin police station was?
18 A. It seemed him. He was -- at least he was the chief of police,
19 then if there's a difference between commander and a chief of police, I
20 don't know.
21 Q. Now, in your statement, you said that there was no response that
22 day in respect of Grubori. Did it come to your knowledge ever that in
23 fact the liaison officer that I have referred to, Mr. Dondo, went to
24 Grubori the next day and provided information to the police in Croatia
25 Did you know about that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you go back to Grubori, Ms. Mauro?
3 A. Yes. Because we saw these other houses burning, as I mentioned
4 to you earlier.
5 Q. Did you ever go in --
6 A. Not Grubori, sorry. We went to Plavno.
7 Q. To Plavno?
8 A. Yes. But it was a valley, and all these villages, Grubori was,
9 coming from Knin, was on your right side, and then you had Zoric, was on
10 your left side, and then in the front you had more villages, so it was
11 all a big valley.
12 Q. Did you go back to the Grubori village or not?
13 A. Not up.
14 Q. Right.
15 A. I was down, yes, where the school was, yes. Yeah, there were
16 houses down in the valley. Yeah, I went there, but not up, up.
17 Q. As you had been the one who had gone to bring the information to
18 Mr. Romanic's attention and to set up the meeting, did you ever go back
19 to Mr. Romanic to find out the reason why he was not there on the 25th at
20 the meeting?
21 A. I am certain that knowing my professional morale, I did. I don't
22 know if he had already left by then. This I don't remember, but yes.
23 Q. What was his response?
24 A. Again, I mentioned, I don't know if he had already left by then.
25 Q. Well --
1 A. So I don't remember his response if there was one, but we were
2 definitely astonished about what happened in Grubori.
3 Q. What I'm asking you about is whether you went back and asked
4 Mr. Romanic why he did not attend, and if you did so, could you give me
5 the date, please?
6 A. No, I can't give the date now, but what I'm saying -- I just
7 said, is that Mr. Romanic probably had already left, but I'm certain that
8 we went back to the police to say, to inform what had happened.
9 Q. Are you able to give me a HRAT report reference out of one of the
10 50 documents as to where I might find that record, please?
11 A. No, because also if you notice, there is not everything written
12 on what we had discussed with Mr. Romanic in the HRAT report, if you
14 Q. I did notice, yes.
15 A. Reading the report, yes. So were would just write -- we were
16 investigating human rights. Then would have been a different report, and
17 if there was something very important to -- to mention, would be in the
18 HRAT. Otherwise, would not even be mentioned but ...
19 Q. Ms. Mauro, it's not in the HRATs --
20 A. Yes --
21 Q. -- which is why I'm asking you.
22 A. So probably, we couldn't see him.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 MS. HIGGINS: I have no further questions.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Higgins.
2 Could I first of all inquire as to the time, Mr. Kuzmanovic?
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Probably less than an hour, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Less than an hour.
5 Mr. Misetic.
6 MR. MISETIC: No more than 15 minutes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties try? We have -- yes, it must be
8 possible, therefore, to conclude the testimony of this witness today.
9 Ms. Mahindaratne, could you give us any indication as to much
10 time you would need in re-examination?
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I have only one question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: One question until now.
13 Mr. Kuzmanovic, I think it would be best that you start the
14 cross-examination because it would be a bit early for a break and then go
15 on for another hour.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No problem, Your Honour. I just need the
17 lectern, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Mauro, you will now be cross-examined by
19 Mr. Kuzmanovic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
22 Q. Ms. Mauro, you were -- I just want to start where Ms. Higgins
23 left off. You said, I believe, that Mr. Romanic, when you were referring
24 to follow up with him, had left by then. You mean left -- left where?
25 The Knin area by then?
1 A. Yeah. He left suddenly. Again, I -- I apologise not having that
2 good memory, but one day we went to see him, and we were told that he was
3 not working anymore in Knin. He was transferred. And I don't remember
4 exactly when that was.
5 Q. Well, there is a HRAT report dated the 23rd of September, which
6 is a little less than a month after the incident at Grubori where you
7 indicate that you met with Mr. Romanic, the chief of police for the Knin
8 area. So it had to be at that point in time he still had not left.
9 A. That's correct. But he would also leave Knin for a while and
10 then come back.
11 Q. Okay. The point is that you yourself had never reported this
12 incident at Grubori to Mr. Romanic, correct?
13 A. No. I don't think it's correct. But --
14 Q. Well, tell me in what document that is it correct if there is a
15 document that says something to that effect, that you, Ms. Mauro, or the
16 HRAT reported this incident to Mr. Romanic.
17 A. Well, I think that probably we reported to Cermak, General
18 Cermak, and we thought that was most appropriate because the people, we
19 saw them, were in military uniform.
20 Q. Okay. Now --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, if you read page 68, line 23, you
22 see that the witness wanted to continue her answer. She said "but". "I
23 don't think it's correct, but..." and then you interrupted her.
24 Could you please allow the witness to finish her answers.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sure.
1 Q. Go ahead. If you wanted to add something there, please feel
3 A. But I think I did.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you meanwhile did, but I'm urging
5 Mr. Kuzmanovic to give you immediately the possibility to finish your
7 THE WITNESS: I appreciate it. It's very, very --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 THE WITNESS: -- professional from you. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. The report that you wrote on Grubori was a three-day report,
13 correct? It encompassed three days; it wasn't an individual report per
15 A. I do not have it in front of me.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: P27. If we could pull that up, please.
17 Q. This is actually a four-day report encompassing the 24th through
18 the 27th of 1995. Can you please tell me why there wasn't a separate
19 report written for each day?
20 A. Good question. I think that we were really trying to work hard
21 and to see how we could help these people and reassure these people, so
22 we were most of the time out in -- in -- in the field, and could have
23 coincided, also, with the arrival of some delegations.
24 Q. This was the time of the arrival of President Tudjman on the
25 train, correct?
1 A. Possible.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to page 4 of this report, Mr.
4 Q. At the bottom of this page, Ms. Mauro, there are three sets of
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. EJ Flynn is the first, correct?
8 A. Si.
9 Q. And then yours are the second initials, correct? MTM?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who is PS?
12 A. Peter Soucek.
13 Q. And who was he?
14 A. He was this civilian affairs officer who was covering the area of
16 Q. And did the three of you put this report together?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Together?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was there any input from anyone else?
21 A. No. Well, there could have been input from military and the
22 CIVPOL, but we would -- you know, security situation could have been --
23 any information we got from -- technical information we would get from
24 militaries, yes. Could be possible then.
25 Q. For this particular debriefing for which this report was written,
1 can you recall, other than the three of you, the names of anyone else who
2 may have participated in this writing?
3 A. No. Nobody else would have participated. Again, we would have
4 received information of technical military nature or others by CIVPOL,
5 but -- sorry, UNMOs, military but -- no.
6 Q. Mr. Mauro, I ask, please, if you would let me finish my question,
7 and I will let you finish your answer. Thank you.
8 You'll notice on the first page of P27, if we could go to P27 on
9 page 1 of this same document.
10 Paragraph 2, the first full paragraph, the bold section where it
11 says: "Late update."
12 Now, the late update on the 27th -- and I'll read from the -- the
13 bold section. It says: "A HRAT which travelled to Grubori on the
14 afternoon of 27 August has received reliable reports of a group of ten
15 camouflage-clad Croatian special police moving up the road to Grubori
16 mid-morning on 25 August."
17 My question to you is, Were you aware or was anyone on your team
18 aware that the Croatian special police never wore camouflage uniforms?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Are you aware that the army of the Republika Srpska military
21 forces most often wore camouflage uniforms?
22 A. No.
23 Q. If we could go to P46, please.
24 Before we get to P46, were you aware that after Operation Storm
25 into late August/early September, there were groups of ARSK soldiers in
1 the woods, in the various areas north and east and south of Knin?
2 A. I was aware there were some ARSK soldiers who called in the area.
3 Q. And these were groups of soldiers that were hiding out in the
4 woods, and do you know that one of the purposes of the mop-up operations
5 was to find these individuals?
6 A. Well, I also know that some of them basically asked us to
7 facilitate their release.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. And we did. In a couple of instances, I was personally involved.
10 Q. I understand that, but I'd like you to answer my question, which
11 was ...
12 A. Well, if you to have to look for your question, then maybe there
13 was not one, right?
14 Q. There was one --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic asked whether you were -- whether you
16 knew that one of the purposes of the mop-up operations was to find these
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. P46, which is the 23rd of August, 1995, HRAT report, on the last
22 page of this document, which is a three-page document, there are your
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we can go to the last page, please.
25 Q. And I think you had mentioned earlier in your testimony that if
1 your initials were on a document, you had participated in putting the
2 document together, correct?
3 A. Yes. Now, I -- in this case, I guess I wrote the document.
4 Q. Okay. This is a document that you wrote, P46, from what your
5 understanding is?
6 A. I can read --
7 Q. Sure. If we want to go back to the first page, and if you'd like
8 to take a look at the document to confirm that, that would help, if that
9 would help --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, have you looked at the screen a
11 second ago? Please pause between question and answer.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 THE WITNESS: Can we go back to --
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sure. If we could go back.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mauro, if we do not make a small pause between
16 question and answer, the transcriber cannot follow us.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you for reminding me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you also try to assist us.
19 Please proceed.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
22 Q. Ms. Mauro, since we both speak the same language and the
23 back-and-forth is a natural event of my questioning and your answering,
24 sometimes my speed and your speed makes the translation not be able to
25 stay with us, so ...
1 It has nothing to do with the skill of the transcribers or the
3 Please feel free to take a look at this document, and if there's
4 anything in there...
5 We had discussed this document -- you had discussed this document
6 with Ms. Higgins. You remember participating in this meeting?
7 A. I called for this meeting.
8 Q. If you take a look at page 2 of this document, you've got in
9 section 6: Mr. Jukic joined the meeting. And you were made aware -- or
10 participants in the meeting were made aware that: "... a collection of
11 dead human bodies is being carried out by a specialized team operating in
12 the Knin area. According to him, this team is composed of one doctor,
13 one burial specialist, and one criminal investigator."
14 Now, knowing this from your meeting on August 23rd of 1995, is
15 there a reason why you did not go to Mr. Romanic and ask for this type of
16 team to come to Grubori?
17 A. Well, again, I thought we were under the impression that General
18 Cermak would have helped us in Grubori, in particular, because there were
19 people in uniform, military uniform when we were there, so we thought
20 that by informing him he would, as responsible, anyway, and the authority
21 in Croatia
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to point 8 of this document.
24 Q. The document further says: "Mr. Jukic, along the line adopted by
25 Mr. Romanic, invited UN representatives to direct reports relating to the
1 dead bodies detected in Sector South to the civil defence."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Yeah, go ahead if you have a comment.
4 A. After you.
5 Q. My question to you is, so you're specifically being directed -
6 meaning UN representatives and international people, I would assume - to
7 direct any information that you have regarding dead bodies directly to
8 the civil defence?
9 A. That's what we did, and the dead body of two or four people, I
10 remember, remained lying in the village not far from Knin for days and
12 Q. Okay. But I'm -- I'm sorry.
13 A. So we had informed, as I suggested, the civilian defence, but we
14 saw that we didn't really succeed in removing these dead bodies.
15 Q. Okay. This is four days before -- two days before Grubori,
16 though, correct, you're being told this? Grubori was the 25th of August,
17 and this meeting was the 23rd of August.
18 A. I think that these bodies we are referring to were after.
19 Q. Okay. But at least as far as Grubori was concerned, you did not
20 follow the suggestion here by Mr. Jukic and Mr. Romanic to report dead
21 bodies detected in Sector South to civil defence, correct?
22 A. No.
23 Q. My statement is correct?
24 A. Yes. We didn't go to see Mr. Jukic in that precise instance.
25 Q. Or Mr. Romanic?
1 A. Mr. Romanic, I think we did go, not immediately, but we did
2 inform him on what had happened.
3 Q. Okay. Now, did you yourself go back to Grubori the same day
4 after you came back to Knin, meaning you went to Grubori, came back to
5 Knin, and then went to Grubori the same day?
6 A. I don't think so.
7 Q. Did Mr. -- did anyone from your group stay in Grubori the entire
8 time and come back later that evening?
9 A. I'm not certain, but if I recall correctly, someone did go in the
10 afternoon, after -- went back. There was movement --
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. -- from our side.
13 Q. Maybe my question wasn't clear enough.
14 Was there a group from your group that went to Grubori that day
15 that stayed when another portion of your group came back to Knin in the
17 A. I don't remember if they stayed or if they came back and then
18 they returned.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you.
20 A. To you.
21 Q. Now, one of your reports talks about the surrender of 14 RSK
22 members, 12 miles -- or 12 kilometres from Knin, not too far from Plavno.
23 I will find that report in a second.
24 A. But not too far from Plavno is your assumption or...
25 Q. I will get to that in a second.
1 A. I see.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: P48.
3 Q. Before I get to P48, were you aware of any other instances of
4 ARSK fighters either surrendering or being captured by any Croatian
5 military forces before this particular report of the 28th of August that
6 we're referring to in P46?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Or P48? Okay. P48 is dated on the cover page of 29th of August,
10 If we go to the next page of that document, please.
11 Were you present at this surrender?
12 A. Yes. Well, I was present when the RSK soldiers, so-called RSK,
13 decided to surrender. I went up to this village to talk to them.
14 Q. Did you go -- when you talked to them, was this a more than
15 one-day event?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you go to -- do you know of anyone else that might have gone
18 there a day or two earlier to talk to these people?
19 A. What I know is that just a few hours before, I went -- I had
20 gone, the military observers or military, and that's why I went, because
21 they wanted us to deal with -- with the matter and to involve, also, the
22 Red Cross and to be certain that we would have the right liaison between
23 military and civilian.
24 Q. Was Mr. Ermolaev involved in this? Does that name ring a bell to
1 A. No.
2 Q. How about Mr. Tchernetsky?
3 A. There was with me a police -- a civil police officer. There was
4 also an UNMO, and there was also the national officer of the human rights
5 centre for -- Centre for Human Rights, and an interpreter.
6 Q. I realize it was a long time ago, but do you recall the names of
7 any of those people?
8 A. No. Probably the interpreter but ...
9 Q. We don't want you to guess.
10 A. No. Probably, because they could have about two, one or the
11 other, but I still don't want to say the names in public.
12 Q. The --
13 JUDGE ORIE: If at any point, Ms. Mauro, you have hesitation when
14 referring to other people, to give their names, and if you would feel
15 comfortable to do that in private session, you always may address me, and
16 of course, it also depends on to what extent the parties are really
17 seeking those names, but...
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, for purposes of this, I would just
19 suggest we go briefly into private session, just if we can get the names,
20 and then we can move back.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Mauro, we will turn into private session.
22 That means what you'll say is not on the public record. I just took the
23 opportunity to inform you that this is a possibility, that even when you
24 testify in open session that portions, especially where you have concerns
25 about other people, can be given in private session. I do understand now
1 that Mr. Kuzmanovic would like you to answer the question, also, with the
2 details of the names.
3 So we turn into private session.
4 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: With respect to the --
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. With respect to the 30 Croatian special police soldiers that were
5 in this report, were you present when they arrived on the scene?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And there was some tension there, correct?
8 A. A lot.
9 Q. But it ended up being defused, and the individuals were
10 essentially taken into custody without any significant issue of any kind,
12 A. Actually, they were not taken in custody that day.
13 Q. Okay. Can you describe what happened?
14 A. What happened was that we discussed with the colonel, I guess,
15 responsible for the group of 30 Croatian soldiers, and he spoke to them,
16 and it was agreed that they could have surrendered and that they would
17 have been guaranteed fair treatment in the prison, and we reassured them
18 that we would have taken their names up, and indeed, we went to visit
19 them in prison afterwards. But they were taken -- taken away one day
21 Q. Okay. So that had to be some significant trust between both the
22 Croatian special police and you to leave them there, correct?
23 A. Well, I think that there was trust among the three of us at the
24 end, because it was a very tense situation in the beginning, and we could
25 have been misinterpreted, but -- by both sides, but then it was
2 Q. And everything ended up working out?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. The Croatian special police did take weapons away from these ARSK
5 fighters, correct?
6 A. I think so.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go, please, to P1100.
8 Q. This is a 25th September, 1995, report, Ms. Mauro.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to the next page of the document,
11 Q. In the first paragraph of this document, there's a discussion
12 about making arrangements to assist persons to get their Croatian
13 documentation, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, in the fourth line, it says -- the full sentence says: "The
16 rest of people have to apply in Gracac municipality, while others, which
17 were previously registered in areas where the registration books have
18 been burned or lost, were only enlisted by the police."
19 Now, my first question to you is, what do you mean by "only
20 enlisted by the police"?
21 A. There were not provided with documents, and there was no record
22 of who they were, where they were living.
23 Q. Were you aware in many areas of the RSK in Sector South that the
24 local Serb population either destroyed or took the birth registration and
25 citizenship registration documentation with them when they left?
1 A. No. I know that documents of this kind were missing.
2 Q. How they were missing, you're not certain?
3 A. No.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to the next page of this
6 Q. You had mentioned -- the last paragraph of this report you had
7 talked about in one of your statements, Ms. Mauro, and that's your
8 discussion with Mr. Barisic who was the coordinator for the Gracac area
9 from the Ministry of Interior.
10 There's some discussion here from Mr. Barisic where he says that
11 the area was difficult to control because of its size being 200 square
12 kilometres under the jurisdiction of Gracac, and that in the southern
13 part of this area of responsibility, former HV soldiers and thus wearing
14 uniforms were undertaking criminal actions and are particularly
15 aggressive. It was also mentioned of bringing charges against 30 to 35
16 of them.
17 Were you aware at the time, I guess, subsequent to your time
18 spent in Croatia
19 either crimes of looting or any other kind of crime in Sector South?
20 A. No.
21 Q. When did you leave Sector South?
22 A. December.
23 Q. Of 1995? Yes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. One last question for you, Ms. Mauro, or subject matter.
1 You came in March of 1995 to Croatia
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you were a civil affairs officer for the UN?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were you -- you were based in Knin?
6 A. As of March, yes.
7 Q. And what did you do up until the time of Operation Storm as a
8 civil affairs officer in Sector South in Knin?
9 A. Well, I was looking after the well-being of the minority at that
10 time, the Croatian population in -- in the sector.
11 Q. Did you go on patrols?
12 A. Yes, regularly, and I did my utmost to ensure that they would be
13 taken care of, and I also mobilized the UN military, the medical teams of
14 the UN militaries to provide assistance. I tried to facilitate
15 encounters between the Croatian population living in -- in the sector and
16 their family living in Croatia
17 Q. Did you have an occasion to go into the Plavno valley area while
18 -- before Operation Storm?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I don't have any other questions, Your Honour.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. Thank you, Ms. Mauro.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
25 Mr. Misetic, I'm wondering, perhaps, we could first have a break
2 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mauro, we'll have a break, and we will resume at
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
6 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
9 Ms. Mauro, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Misetic.
10 Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. Just if I may.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: Going back to the previous examination, I also
14 would like to draw the attention of the gentleman on a report dated 12
15 October 1995, where, indeed, we met civil defence representatives, but it
16 was very difficult to understand who was doing what, and it's clearly
17 specified that no one knew, really, who was this charge. So the reason
18 why probably we did not -- we were not so strict in addressing the
19 problem of dead bodies - besides the fact that they were not removed,
20 they weren't done - was also that we perceived that the office was not
21 working probably. So the report is dated 12 October 1995.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to add that to your answer to the
23 question put to you by Mr. Kuzmanovic about why you did not report this
24 to Mr. Jukic or at least Mr. Jukic's service?
25 THE WITNESS: That's correct. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:
4 Q. Good evening, Ms. Mauro.
5 A. Good evening.
6 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could please have Exhibit P62
7 on the screen, and if I could ask Mr. Usher to assist the witness.
8 Q. Ms. Mauro, in your 2000 statement, which is P1098, at page 2
9 towards the bottom, you mention when discussing the shelling, you say:
10 "The shelling was intense, and we lived in a residential area with a
11 school nearby, but I am aware that the school area did at some stage
12 contain some military equipment."
13 What I'm going to ask you to do is -- we'll show you an aerial
14 map of Knin, and if you could circle and mark with an "A" the area where
15 you lived, and mark with a "B" and circle the school that you're
16 referring to.
17 Can you orient yourself here on this map?
18 A. I'm not familiar with military aerial maps.
19 Q. Well, if you look off in the right-hand part of the screen,
20 you'll see the UN barracks, the Sector South headquarters. Do you see
21 that? The UN camp.
22 A. Can you tell me which part?
23 Q. On the right-hand side of the screen --
24 A. Mm-hm.
25 Q. -- you'll see a see --
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. -- a circled -- or a blacked-off area?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That's the UN compound.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So does that help you orient yourself in Knin?
7 A. Yeah, especially if you indicate, please, where is the entrance?
8 Q. That would be - let's see - on the -- if you look in the upper
9 left-hand corner, you see where north is pointing. It would be on the
10 north side of the UN compound, would be the entrance.
11 A. This way?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could we -- we're not yet at the
13 point where marking starts. Could you assist the witness by using the
14 cursor on this screen. No, we cannot not follow what you point to the --
15 could you please come here and -- yes, there we are.
16 Now, we have a -- yes, I was looking at the wrong screen. Could
17 you first move the pointer so that we see the UN. That's the UN - from
18 what I understand from the evidence until now --
19 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- the UN compound, the entrance being, more or
21 less, left-hand side of that.
22 Now, if you would just move the cursor, Mr. Usher, a little bit
23 down to the left, down to the left, following the road. That is the road
24 that leads to Knin, and now up again to the right, so that direction,
25 around Knin castle, and that's where you are approximately at the railway
1 station. Are you able to orient yourself?
2 THE WITNESS: Relatively so. But I do remember that I was living
3 in -- the school, at least, I was referring to was on the back of this
4 main road. But how precisely far from either the main road and from the
5 compound, I wouldn't be able to say from the map.
6 MR. MISETIC:
7 Q. Do you recall any other buildings that were in the immediate
8 vicinity of where you lived?
9 A. No. The house was a two-storey house; and close by, there were
10 these type of buildings, in fact.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. So, you know, I couldn't be precise. I can point -- can I use
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I could point here, or I could point here.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Mm-hm.
18 MR. MISETIC: Can we just draw a big circle, Your Honour, in that
19 general area?
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, would it not be a good idea to help the
22 witness, perhaps, a bit to tell her where you would cross the railway
23 because that's --
24 MR. MISETIC: That's fine.
25 Q. Ms. Mauro, do you see the railway station that was just marked
1 there, RRSTN?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if you keep going north on that road, you would cross over.
4 There's a --
5 JUDGE ORIE: North is -- in order to avoid confusion, is to the
6 left on this map.
7 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Whereas usually --
9 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
10 Q. Keep going to the left. You would cross over a little bridge
11 there, and then could you keep going up that road. Are you familiar with
12 where the northern barracks is?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Military barracks? No? Is the Tvik factory familiar to you?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you find your way to the hospital?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if we take the witness --
19 MR. MISETIC: Yes. If we could --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- from the railway station where the -- perhaps
21 with the cursor we could -- Mr. Misetic, sorry. If you now move to the
22 left, following the railway, there approximately you would cross the
23 railway to enter into Knin town, and then I think -- no. I don't know
24 who is moving it upwards now.
25 If you would have crossed the railway, if you would go to the
1 hospital, would you go ...
2 THE WITNESS: I would go -- my -- the residence where I was
3 living was on the way to the hospital but in the back side.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can we move the picture in such a way that we
5 also see the hospital.
6 On this map, would you now be able to identify where the hospital
8 THE WITNESS: If I'm correct, it should be this way. I'm sorry
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just try to -- if you would point at it
11 with the cursor.
12 THE WITNESS: Toward this -- this direction.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 I leave it in your hands now, Mr. Misetic, not to make it a
16 MR. MISETIC:
17 Q. Now, if that is correct, Ms. Mauro, does that help you now orient
18 yourself on where you lived?
19 MR. MISETIC: Can we pull the screen down a little bit so she can
20 see the hospital.
21 Q. The hospital is -- do you see the hospital?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I could have been here or here. Oh, pardon.
25 Q. Okay. Can you -- there we go.
1 Now, can you tell us the general area of where you believe you
3 A. It's in an attempt. Don't take it for granted, but it was -- it
4 could have been somewhere here.
5 Q. All right. Can you just draw a circle around the general area
6 that you think you lived?
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I -- given the witness's
8 continuous, you know, expressions, saying that she cannot be certain,
9 she's not sure, just a guesstimate, I don't know how safe it is to --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's for the Chamber finally to determine
11 how safe it is, and of course, we've heard all this, and we helped the
12 witness to orient herself, and we are not unaware that there is still
13 some hesitation.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
16 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, that's fine for my purpose.
17 Q. Actually, let me ask you, are you -- given that general area, are
18 you able to find the school that you're referring to?
19 A. No.
20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, I ask that the exhibit be marked, and
21 I tender it into evidence.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
24 Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit number D955, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D955, map or aerial view marked by the witness, is
2 admitted into evidence.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Ms. Mauro, on direct examination, you mentioned that your source,
6 some of your sources for information in 1996 included, first of all,
7 interpreters. Were these interpreters that you became reacquainted with
8 when you went to Belgrade
9 A. Both the ones I became acquainted with and the ones who remained
10 in Knin.
11 Q. Well, let me clarify that. You were in Belgrade in 1996. Is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And once in Belgrade
15 situation in Croatia
16 A. Yes, and from - as I mentioned earlier - my landlady and her
17 family and the friends of former UN national staff.
18 Q. Now, can you tell us who your landlady was? Was she someone who
19 used to live in Sector South?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you're asking for names, I wonder whether we
22 do that in public session.
23 MR. MISETIC: I will get as much information I can, and then ask
24 for it in private session, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Misetic will take care of any possible
1 concerns you may have.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
4 Q. With respect to these interpreters, again, I wasn't clear on your
5 earlier answer. Were these interpreters you were speaking with while you
6 were in Belgrade
7 A. Also in UN Sector North, because I worked in the UN Sector North
8 north, as well, before going in Sector South.
9 Q. Okay. And when you say friends of former UN national staff?
10 A. Friends and family.
11 Q. When you say UN national staff, generally, without giving me
12 names, what are you referring to when you say UN national staff?
13 A. Generally, they were interpreters.
14 Q. Okay. So friends and family of the interpreters.
15 A. Yes, and of my landlady and from friends of friends. They had
16 relatives in Belgrade
17 who were coming out of the exodus following 5th August.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, if we could move into private
20 session now.
21 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
20 MR. MISETIC:
21 Q. Ms. --
22 MR. MISETIC: I'm going ask about one interpreter, Mr. President,
23 but we've spoken about him publicly at length, so I don't think there is
24 any need for private session. I leave it to you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
1 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Ms. Mauro, were you familiar with an interpreter named Predrag
4 A. I knew him.
5 Q. And what did you know about him?
6 A. He was a very competent interpreter.
7 Q. When was the last time you spoke to him that you recall?
8 A. When I left Knin.
9 Q. Okay. Now --
10 A. Or he left Knin. I don't remember, but ... since Knin, I never
11 spoke to him anymore.
12 Q. Okay. With respect to your fellow international colleagues in
13 former Sector South, do you keep in contact with any of them?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us who you still keep in contact with?
16 A. Several of them.
17 Q. Would you -- can you tell us who?
18 A. Sajin Zhang. Olivier Mouquat. Igor Krnetic. Branka. Nina.
19 Judith Jacob.
20 Q. Do you keep in touch with Alun Roberts?
21 A. Alun Roberts.
22 Q. Concerning Mr. Roberts, have you spoken with him at all about
23 this case?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When was the last time you spoke to Mr. Roberts about this case?
1 A. When I saw him here.
2 Q. Can you tell us what the purpose of -- or what the circumstances
3 were that had both you and Mr. Roberts here at the same time?
4 A. It was a proofing session.
5 Q. Do you recall the date? Was it this year?
6 A. It was the last statement I gave.
7 Q. This would be January of 2008?
8 A. January or February.
9 Q. Yes. So can you tell us where you encountered Mr. Roberts while
10 you were here?
11 A. We were sharing the same hotel.
12 Q. In addition to Mr. Roberts, was there anyone else here in
13 The Hague
14 A. No, that I know of.
15 Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Roberts while you were here in The Hague
16 the events of 1995?
17 A. Briefly. But when you say who else was here, who else among who?
18 Q. Was there anyone from your time in Croatia in 1995 who was also
19 present in the The Hague
20 A. No. Not that I'm aware of.
21 Q. Now, do you recall what you briefly discussed with Mr. Roberts
22 about the events in 1995?
23 A. Well, we recalled a difficult moment that we went through.
24 Q. And that was the last occasion you spoke with Mr. Roberts?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When you met with the Office of the Prosecutor in January, did
2 you meet with them alone, or was Mr. Roberts present?
3 A. Alone.
4 Q. Ms. Mauro, if I can show you --
5 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could please have Exhibit D690.
6 Q. Now, in 1996 were you working at all with UNHCR?
7 A. Well, we were cooperating.
8 Q. This is a document from October of 1995 that was -- a statement
9 by Mrs. Sadako Ogata. I'm sure you're familiar with her, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MISETIC: And, Mr. Registrar, if we could go to page 4 of
12 this document, please.
13 Q. The third paragraph there or the paragraph that begins:
15 Mrs. Ogata stated that repatriation must take place in an
16 organised phased manner. It goes on to talk about how adequate
17 accommodation and essential services must be available in the places of
18 return. It says: "Returning large numbers of refugees to areas which
19 are not yet ready to receive them can have very serious consequences, not
20 only for the refugees themselves but for the stability in the area
21 concerned. I am thinking particularly of the still-fragile situation in
22 the area of the Federation."
23 Ms. Mauro, in your work with the UNHCR in 1996, were you aware
24 that the issue of returns was actually one that involved multiple
25 countries and repatriation of various refugee groups in order to be
1 successful? Were you aware of how that process was unfolding?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you say -- you testified on direct about Croatians
4 obstructing return. Was part of the issue the fact that these refugee
5 return issues became interrelated so that return of refugees to Croatia
6 was related to the return of Croatian refugees to Bosnia and -- et
8 A. But there were two issues, I think. One was the return proper,
9 and the other one was the issuance of Croatian document, for instance,
10 which was very slow.
11 Q. I think Mr. Kuzmanovic may have asked you this, but let me ask
12 you directly. Were you aware that the underlying -- many of the
13 underlying documents of the Croatian Serbs had in fact been taken to
15 just a while ago, the exodus to Serbia
16 A. Well, this is one of the interpretation. The other
17 interpretation was that they were burned as soon as the Croatian
18 authorities had come in, and I do not have an answer to that.
19 Q. Well, are you aware that in 2003 Croatia and Serbia
20 international agreement whereby Serbia
21 personal records back to Croatia
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
2 Ms. Mahindaratne.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
5 Q. Ms. Mauro, I have one question for you, and it's in relation to a
6 question asked by Ms. Higgins. For the record, it's page 48, line 8, and
7 just to remind you, Ms. Mauro, I'll read back the questions and answer.
8 You were asked this question: "Is it right to say that from the
9 brief contact that you had with Mr. Cermak in the UN compound that he was
10 cooperating and trying to help out?"
11 And you answered: "That's what I said.
12 Then you were asked a question again: "Is it fair to say that
13 given your position in Knin at that time, you weren't privy to the
14 knowledge of what resources he had available to him or what he was
15 authorised to do? It's not something that you knew about, was it?"
16 And your answer was: "Well, he seemed to be the point of
18 And then you were asked this question: "My question is a bit
19 more specific. In terms of whether you knew the resources he had
20 available to him and whether you knew the authority he had to assist, do
21 you see the difference?"
22 And then you answered: "The resources, I don't know. The
23 authority" - this is the answer that I would like you to focus on - the
24 authority, it was stated because he wanted to be informed, and he wanted
25 to, and he was reassuring. He was saying that the situation was under
1 control, so and others were, I think also the chief of police referred to
2 General Cermak, like, I can't really but General Cermak.
3 That's what you have stated. That's what has been recorded, and
4 that answer is not very clear?
5 Now my question to you is: What did the chief of police say
6 about Mr. Cermak which led you to draw certain conclusions about
7 Mr. Cermak's authority?
8 A. Well, he said that -- if I recall correctly, that General Cermak
9 would have authority to influence the situation when it comes to problems
10 with the looting, burning, criminal acts of all sorts, including
12 Q. And when you say chief of police, whom are you referring to?
13 A. Chief of police, I'm referring to Romanic.
14 Q. Do you recall when he said this to you?
15 A. In one of our meetings when we were drawing his attention on the
16 situation on the ground.
17 Q. Are you able to briefly set out the time-frame?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you, Ms. Mauro.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
22 I suggest that we first look at whether there are any questions
23 for the Bench, and if then, yes.
24 MS. HIGGINS: Of course. Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Gwaunza has one or more questions for you.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Ms. Mauro, my question relates to a statement
4 which is contained in your statement of 6 -- 5 and 6 January, 2008; that
5 is it the supplemental statement, on the second page, page 2,
6 paragraph 4.
7 You refer there to an attempt to rescue some people, an attempt
8 which was then stopped by the Croatian army, and this was -- this is
9 alerting to people that you stated were stranded at a bridge or near a
11 My question is, do you know what eventually happened to those
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Thank you.
15 A. Thank you to you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mauro, I would have a few questions for you as
17 well. I'll just try to find them.
18 Mr. Kuzmanovic asked questions about the meeting in which
19 Mr. Jukic joined at a certain moment and explained to you -- explained to
20 you about the teams with the doctor and the criminal technician, I think
21 it was. And now, in that report, we find just after that portion where
22 he invites you to report that Mr. Jukic explained that his team was slow
23 because of false reports, where he said the reports were false because
24 people killed were actually killed by Serbs, because they had refused to
25 leave the area at the -- when the Croatian offensive started.
1 Do you remember that this was said during this meeting?
2 A. I remember that there was something said about this, and it was
3 also something said about why, for instance, a man and a woman would be
4 buried together, because they would kill also the -- the woman if they
5 would find a man. So there were such statements.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you form any opinion at that time on the
7 basis of your own observations about the veracity of this statement, that
8 people were killed by Serbs because they had refused to leave the area
9 when the Croatian offensive started?
10 A. No, because most of the people who were left were really elderly,
11 and I think it would have been easy to kill all of them if this was the
12 intention of the Serbs, if they were after killing people because they
13 didn't want to leave the area.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Your answer started with no. I asked whether you
15 formed an opinion about it --
16 A. I'm sorry --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- so the answer apparently is, yes, you formed an
18 opinion about it, and the opinion was that you considered this to be a
19 reasonable or did not consider this to be a reasonable explanation of the
20 bodies being found being killed.
21 A. I apologise. In fact, I did form an opinion, and opinion was
22 that if indeed it was true that people would be killed because they
23 wouldn't leave the area, the killing would have been many more because
24 most of the people who were there were elderly, and they could have
25 killed all of them. So, no, I don't think that was done, because people
1 didn't want to leave the area by the Serbs.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Did the information Mr. Jukic provided during this
3 meeting, did that have any influence on your inclination to report or not
4 to report dead bodies found to the civil defence?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And in what way did it influence your inclination?
7 A. Biased.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
9 Now, you also explained to us that -- and you gave this as an
10 addition to your earlier answer, that from a 12th of October, 1995,
11 document, that you gained the impression that civil defence was not clear
12 on their own tasks and -- now, I inform the parties that it's not yet in
13 evidence, but I do understand that this is supposed -- that this is a
14 reference most likely to 65 ter 596, which will be on your list from what
15 I understand, Ms. Mahindaratne.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And that is a document called "HRAT Summary of
18 Activities from the 6th to the 11th of October" dated the 12th of
20 Ms. Mauro, you referred to this 12th of October document and the
21 confusion. I read that document. Is that a document which refers to the
22 meeting you had with Mr. Zlatko De Longa?
23 A. Document of 12 October?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 A. Civil defence officials.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you told us that this may also have
2 influenced you not to report but Mr. Zlatko De Longa, who apparently,
3 according to this 12th of October document, creates quite a bit of
4 confusion also following this report told that he arrived only two days
5 prior to this meeting, which raises the following question for me: How
6 could this lack of clarity on the civil defence apparently created by
7 Mr. De Longa have had already its effect far before Mr. De Longa had
8 arrived in the area?
9 A. Well, this is just an additional evidence to corroborate our
10 impression that the civil defence, in fact, either did not have
11 information, either did not want to disclose information; and that
12 impression was borne when I met Mr. Jukic the first time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
14 You answered a question about the information you -- that you had
15 about the authority of Mr. Cermak and his title, and you were asked
16 whether that information was based on what you had been told by others
17 within the UN. When you were asked whether that was right, you answered:
18 "My colleagues."
19 Now, was it exclusively on the basis of the information given by
20 your colleagues, or was your impression about the authority - I'm not
21 talking about his title but just about his authority - was that based
22 exclusively on what you had been told by others, your colleagues, or was
23 it also based on your own observations?
24 A. Both. But we worked as a team, and we all had the same
25 impression, within the UN.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But when I say your personal
2 observation, I mean your personal observation in meetings with
3 Mr. Cermak.
4 A. Again, my meetings were not official with Mr. Cermak, where in
5 the compound it was not a formal meeting, but my impression was so, that
6 he was an authority.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did it also include your observations or
8 at least what you heard from Mr. Romanic?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
11 Now, there's one question that was put to you that was about --
12 Ms. Higgins asked you about the position of the Croatian government
13 concerning reintegration, and she asked you when she put this to you, she
14 pointed at a document, and she asked you: "Do you see there an
15 observation that Mr. Cermak stressed that Croatia does not want their
16 town and wishes all these people to live there?"
17 She said: "Do you see that, and did it come to your attention
18 either at the time or shortly thereafter that that was in fact the
19 position that Mr. Cermak had put forward?"
20 Your answer was: "Well, yes."
21 Could I verify with you the various elements of the question and
22 then whether the "yes" applies to all the elements.
23 She first asked whether you did see that it was the position,
24 referring to the document, and may I take it that you saw that in the
25 document that was put to you?
1 A. Today, certainly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the next part of the question was: "Did
3 it come to your attention, either at the time or shortly thereafter, that
4 this was in fact the position that Mr. Cermak had put forward?"
5 Was your answer in the affirmative, also, on this element of the
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then that clarifies your answer.
9 I have no further questions for you.
10 Ms. Higgins.
11 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, I have just a couple of questions
12 arising out of the clarification evidence that was elicited during my
13 learned friend's re-examination.
14 Further cross-examination by Ms. Higgins:
15 Q. Ms. Mauro, in relation to the conversation that you said that you
16 had with Mr. Romanic about Mr. Cermak, we know that you met with
17 Mr. Romanic on the 22nd of August. Now, you can take it from me that in
18 that document, the record of your account, which is Prosecution Exhibit
19 P46, there is no mention or reference to any such conversation there.
20 There's no other HRAT report that I have been provided with that
21 assists me as to when that conversation may have taken place.
22 Can you help me?
23 A. I should look into the HRAT report, but may also not have been
25 Q. It's not in your statement, either, in fact, in either of your
1 two statements. Is it something that you had told the Prosecution about
2 during your proofing session or not?
3 A. I don't recall.
4 Q. Can you help me with any place that I might find a record of this
5 conversation that you say took place concerning Mr. Cermak's influence
6 concerning looting and burning?
7 A. Well, if is written, then you may find in the HRAT report which
8 refer to meetings with Mr. Romanic.
9 Q. There are no such HRAT reports that contain such a conversation,
10 Ms. Mauro.
11 A. So may not have been written.
12 Q. Thank you. During that alleged conversation, did Mr. Romanic
13 tell you about the responsibility of the police to investigate crime and
14 to stop crimes in the area?
15 A. Unfortunately, Mr. Romanic seemed really genuinely interested in
16 helping, but he didn't, in fact.
17 Q. Tell you about -- did he tell you about their responsibility, to
18 investigate crimes?
19 A. I assumed that they have responsibility to investigate crimes as
20 Ministry of Interior representatives.
21 Q. The question was simple. Did he tell you during this
22 conversation that you had with him -- you say you had with him, did he
23 tell you then about the responsibilities of the police? Yes or no?
24 A. I don't recall.
25 Q. Thank you. And finally, just for the sake of clarification as
1 the word "meetings" has been used on several occasions, and just so that
2 we understand each other, Ms. Mauro, would it be fair and right to say
3 that you came across Mr. Cermak several times within the UN compound for
4 no more than a few minutes at a time with others present?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. HIGGINS: I have no further questions. Thank you, Your
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Further cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: This is borne out of your question, Your Honour,
14 at page 102, line 10, or actually, line 3.
15 Q. Ms. Mauro, Judge Orie asked you a question on the issue of the
16 civil defence. The question was: "How could this lack of clarity on the
17 civil defence apparently created by Mr. De Longa have already" -- "have
18 had already its effect far before Mr. De Longa had arrived to the area?"
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could pull P46 up, please, second page,
20 specifically paragraph 6, 7, and the first part of paragraph 8.
21 Ms. Mauro, your answer to that question was: "This is just an
22 additional evidence" - meaning your meeting with Mr. De Longa - "to
23 corroborate our impression that the civil defence in fact either did not
24 have information, either did not want to disclose information, and that
25 impression was borne when I met Mr. Jukic the first time."
1 Now, the first time you met Mr. Jukic was summarized in this
2 report, P46; and in paragraphs 6, 7, and 8 of P46, he does provide you
3 with information, and he doesn't fail to disclose any information to you,
5 A. Not precise.
6 Q. He provides you with the teams that the collection of dead animal
7 -- dead human bodies is being carried out by a specialized team operating
8 in the Knin area, and he describes what the team is for you.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He also tells you how many bodies were buried in the Knin area.
11 He also tells you that the records are submitted to the deputy prime
12 minister, who was the only Croatian official authorised to speak to the
13 public on this question, and he also invites UN representatives to direct
14 reports relating to the dead bodies to be detected in Sector South to the
15 civil defence. So he is providing you with information there, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And he's not failing to disclose anything to you in those two
18 proves, is he?
19 A. Well, if you go probably down to the same document or in another
20 document, you will also see that he is asking us to ask to the hospital
21 about autopsies, and then we go to the hospital, and the hospital
22 director doesn't want to talk to us or doesn't know what is, really, we
23 are looking for, so there were contradictory evidences. Also --
24 Q. Well, let's go to the -- let's go to the next page.
25 A. If I can finish as you do. Thank you.
1 Since he was talking about all this well-organised teams, which
2 were cleaning the streets, removing dead animals and human bodies, that
3 was not happening, in fact. So we were a bit reluctant to really take it
4 seriously. Thank you.
5 Q. There is nothing in this document summarizing your meeting with
6 Mr. Jukic, which you said that your impression was borne of him when you
7 met him the first time that says anything about the hospital.
8 A. Well, if you read the next report, you can see that dead bodies
9 an animals, carcasses, and streets are not yet cleaning, and this happens
10 for weeks and weeks.
11 Q. I would ask to you answer my question, please.
12 A. That's the answer. Thank you.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I think in fairness to the
14 witness, perhaps paragraph 8 can be read in its entirety.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the point, of course, is that Mr. Kuzmanovic
16 started referring to paragraph 6, 7 and 8, and later on he referred to
17 the two paragraphs. I take it that you were referring to 6 and 7. Of
18 course, the witness has answered some questions, many questions on this
20 Ms. Mauro, if you would please take your time to re-read 6, 7,
21 and 8 of this report, and then if you are done with most of 7, if you
22 have to move to the next page, please inform us. And would you then,
23 please, after you've done so, answer the question whether there's
24 anything in this document which summarizes your meeting with Mr. Jukic.
25 THE WITNESS: Would you move to the next part of paragraph 8.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, four dead bodies in Zagrovic were not removed
4 for many days after these, just one of the examples. And again, there is
5 another report - I have not this good memory - to be asked to be pulled
6 into the screen where I say that I go to see -- we go to see the director
7 of the hospital in Knin because we were informed that they were
8 responsible for autopsies, and there is no clear answer to who is
9 responsible for the autopsies, et cetera.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions in this respect,
11 Mr. Kuzmanovic?
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: One last question, Your Honour.
13 Q. In paragraph 8, and we can go back to that beginning portion of
14 paragraph 8. The information that was provided specifically in
15 paragraph 8, you did not do, correct, you would agree with me?
16 A. We did. Zagrovic was one of the cases which is just in -- after
17 paragraph 8. We reported about Zagrovic.
18 Q. You did not do that for Grubori, though, correct?
19 A. No, because when I --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think that question was asked, was answered, and
21 does not arise from the re-examination or the questions of the Bench,
22 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm done. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
25 Ms. Mauro, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like
1 to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered
2 the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I
3 wish you a safe trip home again, wherever that may be at this moment.
4 Mr. Usher, could you please escort Ms. Mauro out of the
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity
7 to be here. It is more a responsibility.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The parties called you, Ms. Mauro.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: At least the Prosecution, in this case.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm just looking in the middle but ...
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We have got three minutes left. I know that there's
15 a pending issue of expertise. However, I'm afraid that I will never be
16 forgiven by interpreters and transcribers if I would give you an
17 opportunity to start that debate at this moment, because it is not
18 difficult to forecast what will happen, but it is that I have to
19 apologise in ten minutes from now at the best for being late.
20 I therefore suggest that any further submissions on that matter
21 be made tomorrow before we start the testimony of the expert witness,
22 Mr. Theunens, but we've got two minutes left to discuss whether this is a
23 good suggestion.
24 Ms. Mahindaratne.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Waespi is here, Mr. President, for this
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that's a good suggestion, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Waespi.
5 Mr. Kehoe.
6 MR. KEHOE: I'm sure that the takee always thinks that's a good
7 suggestion. I am a taker in the sense of -- with regard to the motion
8 for prior drafts of the witness's report, that is certainly something we
9 would want now, so the witness is due to begin tomorrow, so ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed that a response would be filed today.
11 I don't know whether this has been done, Mr. Waespi.
12 MR. WAESPI: No. It's being finalised right now, and we will
13 certainly file in next -- next couple of hours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you please take care that -- well,
15 filing outside office hours is always a bit of a problem, but at least
16 that you provide a courtesy copy to the Defence, and if you would forward
17 it in such a way to the Chamber staff that we don't have to arrive
18 tomorrow morning at -- too early to look at that, as well, and have an
19 opportunity to look at it also this evening.
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I think we always do that courtesy copies to
21 the parties, including Chamber staff.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but of course, time and where to send it
23 exactly so that we really are in a position to also read it this evening.
24 That's a very practical matter, which, I take it, you will take up with
25 the Chamber staff.
1 Mr. Kehoe.
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Obviously, there are some other
3 issues, which we will defer until tomorrow.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's 7.00. We adjourn for the day, and we'll
5 resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 19th of November, quarter past 2.00, in
6 this same Courtroom I.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of
9 November, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.