Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13099

 1                           Thursday, 4 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Mr. Kay, are you ready to continue your cross-examination.

13             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, it will not come as a surprise, but I

15     have to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you

16     gave at the beginning of your testimony.

17             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           WITNESS:  REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay: [Continued]

20        Q.   Yesterday when we adjourned we were looking at Exhibit P463.

21             MR. KAY:  If that could be put on the screen, please, and turn to

22     page 6, because we'd looked at page 5.

23        Q.   And you will recollect that, Mr. Theunens, the conversation

24     between Dr. Radic and President Tudjman on the 22nd of August, 1995.

25     That's page 5.  There we are, page 6.  And it's page 9 to 10 in the

Page 13100

 1     Croatian language version.

 2             And Dr. Juric [sic] in this continuing of the conversation says:

 3             "But where is the problem?  The problem is when the person

 4     elected in civil authority is bad.  And that is usually the case.  Well,

 5     not everywhere.  We have a good one in Kostajnica, but the one in Knin is

 6     no good.  I do not know where he came from; he's a Serb."

 7             And the president said:  "He's a Serb."

 8             Dr. Radic went on that he was told yesterday he was no good for

 9     anything.  He was told to replace him.

10             And then we get to this passage:

11             "We discussed that as well today, but since this guy is no good,

12     naturally, Cermak has to do everything, and then various problems come

13     up.  The county executive gives up, et cetera, so there is a lot of mess

14     in the terrain.  I'm telling you this because I have been through that

15     and seen it all over there."

16             And the conversation continues.

17             In your report, Mr. Theunens, where you deal with the civil and

18     military authority and Mr. Cermak's role, when you were writing your

19     report, did you appreciate the difficulties that were thrust upon him as

20     an individual going to Knin with the mission to normalize life in the

21     city?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And for that reason, General Cermak was caused to undertake more

24     civilian missions than he might otherwise have been caused to do, because

25     of the failures of others.  Did you appreciate that?

Page 13101

 1        A.   Indeed.

 2        Q.   That he was caused to take upon himself more responsibilities

 3     because of the need to be pragmatic with the situation on the ground.

 4     Did you consider that?

 5        A.   I cannot express any -- any views as to whether pragmatism or

 6     other motives prevailed, but I am aware of -- of documents that indicate

 7     that the role of the person that is discussed in the transcript left room

 8     for improvement and that is, for example, mentioned on English page 263

 9     of the second page -- second part of my report.

10        Q.   And we looked at the reports yesterday, remember, from the

11     security services, the political information departments, Major Tolj --

12     or Brigadier Tolj - my apologies to him - and others, as to why Cermak

13     had to get involved in things that weren't on the face it his business.

14     Do you understand that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Shall we now look at the kind of work, and I know you

17     have referred to matters in your report, but some of these issues require

18     a fuller explanation as to the why it came to Mr. Cermak's way.

19             First of all, shall we look at Exhibit D775.

20             This is it a document written by Major Jonjic, the logistics

21     assistant for Knin garrison.  It's an undated report, but it could be

22     that it's after 15 days of being in Knin, if you read the text, and it is

23     his report on what happened and the tasks that were being undertaken by

24     him.

25             You recognise this report; do you?

Page 13102

 1        A.   I think I do.  I believe it is included in my report, but I'm --

 2     I don't know exactly where I have included it.

 3        Q.   There are two reports by him, and you certainly included one, but

 4     I don't know if you included the other.

 5             But this report, as we just look at it, and see Major Jonjic who

 6     is from the Split Military District, which is right, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes, indeed.  And that was also discussed in my examination that

 8     there was some communication between General Cermak and the establishment

 9     commander of Jonjic, in relation to the assignment of Jonjic to the Knin

10     garrison command.

11        Q.   And we shall be looking at that because it goes to the issue of

12     Cermak's authority, which you told us yesterday you wanted to comment on,

13     and we will be looking at those orders.

14             But here again is this major from the 306th Logistics Base,

15     Sibenik, and he is working for the benefit of the city, revitalizing the

16     city.  On the first page, we see about water into the city, power to the

17     hospital, metal working.

18             MR. KAY:  Page 2, please.

19        Q.   Carpentry, glazing, railways, electrical power, soup kitchen.

20     14th of September.  So I was wrong when I said 15 days; it's after 15

21     days.  That's what I meant to express, so it's at some period after then.

22             The Court can see the provision of food, page 3.  On page 3 from

23     the very beginning, Knin was in a disastrous epidemiological condition

24     because of the dirt of the town, lack of electricity, tons of meat left

25     in refrigerators, the need for cleaning the town.  As well as that, he

Page 13103

 1     organised or we organised cultural and artistic events, welcome for the

 2     president, helping church, kindergartens, school.  On the orders of

 3     General Cermak made myself available to the government's commission, by

 4     that, "commission," do you agree, means the housing commission?

 5        A.   That is possible.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   We'll look at documents later which will show that.

 7             And we can see the first shop was opened.  Bread, milk in Knin,

 8     other requirements necessary for the life of a city.  All these are

 9     segments without which a city cannot live.

10             And we have no need to turn to the last page, but it is signed by

11     Major Jonjic, and the Court has already seen this as an exhibit.

12             And it's point that I want to make that when you give your

13     opinion about his civilian/military authority, saying that he was in

14     control of all aspects of civilian life, what you mean is that, in fact,

15     he took steps to try and get the city going which were necessary to try

16     and make order in the city.  That's really what it comes to; doesn't it?

17        A.   Is indeed an important aspect of General Cermak's duties which

18     are described as civilian/military authority.

19        Q.   And these don't come about from a rule book or some sort of

20     directive, but come about from being just given a general order of

21     normalising life in the city as being the task?

22        A.   Indeed.  And I would even add of also having received the

23     authority to engage in these activities, aimed at normalizing life in the

24     city.

25        Q.   I quite agree being told that and sent down there with that as

Page 13104

 1     his mission, which is what the documents reflect.  Isn't that right?

 2        A.   Yes.  And as I said, it is an important aspect of his mission,

 3     based on the documents I reviewed.

 4        Q.   The next document is 65 ter 826, which is another Jonjic

 5     report --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, may I seek clarification of your last

 7     question.  You said I quite agree being told that, did you have any

 8     specific occasion in mind where it was told, because you said this was

 9     not about from being just given a general order of normalising life, you

10     said -- at least I understood your question to be being told that that

11     reflects such a general order.

12             MR. KAY:  Yes.  When the president appointed Mr. Cermak, that was

13     his instruction to him.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You were referring to the -- that order.

15             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Appointment.

17             MR. KAY:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. KAY:

21        Q.   We've got 65 ter 826.  Is this a report that you recognise?  It

22     has largely the same content, the same issues.  I don't want to go

23     through it page by page.  But is this a document that you have seen?

24        A.   I believe so.

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 13105

 1             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, might this document be made an exhibit.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1015, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D1015 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. KAY:

 7        Q.   The next Jonjic document is rather an unusual one, but I'm using

 8     it to demonstrate how there were constraints on General Cermak which need

 9     to be considered.

10             MR. KAY:  Can we call up 2D07-0137, please.

11        Q.   There are several pages to this document, and we have no need to

12     go through all of them, as they come to the same thing.

13             It's dated the 5th of September, 1995, and it goes to Split

14     Military District Command.  It's subject:  Consent requested.  And it's

15     from General Cermak, signed on his behalf, but it is on the occasion of a

16     visit of a European delegation.  We recollect in Jonjic's reports

17     reference to such things.  Refreshments along with other programmes were

18     defined by the protocol.  The menu specified prosciutto ham ... "we had

19     to purchase it immediately so we did not have time to request your

20     consent."

21             And then we can see General Gotovina kindly gave the consent, and

22     there was an enclosure of the invoice.

23             Let's go to the next page.  And there's a series of documents,

24     the first one has come up as the 21st of October, which is the invoice to

25     be collected from this shop, and it's got the date and the amount and

Page 13106

 1     Major Jonjic.

 2             Let's go to the next page, and that should be the 6th of

 3     September, and we can see our prosciutto ham and the amount and what it's

 4     all about, the original invoice.  And there are further documents in

 5     this, ending up with a letter from Jonjic about a record of the delay of

 6     the invoice.

 7             And why this is in here is a seemingly insignificant matter but

 8     shows the constraints actually on his authority that he was not in

 9     command of everything.  Do you accept that?

10        A.   No.  Because this document has to do with logical procedures and

11     does not allow to draw any conclusions in relation to what you call

12     constraints on General Cermak's authority.

13        Q.   What were the logistical matters for the army?

14        A.   Well, one would expect --

15        Q.   No.  I'm asking what you they were, not what you expect.  What

16     were they?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness knows, he can tell us.  But I would

18     consider it appropriate to first wait to what he expected.  It could be

19     anything, but, at the same time, of course, Mr. Theunens, you are invited

20     to focus your answer on the question.

21             MR. KAY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, if I jumped in, but I am trying

22     to go --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  I understand you and I also don't

24     want Mr. Theunens to be cut off.  At this stage when we do not even know

25     what he expects.

Page 13107

 1        A.   I'm not familiar with the specific procedures that existed

 2     between the 306th of Logistics Base of the Split Military District and

 3     the Knin garrison command, but normally such assistance, i.e., the

 4     provision of food and beverage would be taken care of by the logistics

 5     base of the Military District to which the garrison command belongs.

 6             So the document then states basically that General Cermak because

 7     of urgency could not wait for an authorisation to obtain or to purchase

 8     the food and beverage from General Gotovina, and therefore undertook the

 9     initiative to purchase of foodstuff and beverage himself, and he is now

10     claiming a reimbursement, which even though I am not a logistical expert,

11     corresponds with what I have seen when I was stationed in the 2nd Guards

12     Regiment in Germany and as a personnel official was also involved in

13     organising certain receptions and other festivities.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

16             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1016, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D1016 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. KAY:  Dealing now with logistics, this part of the aspect of

21     General Cermak's tasks, can we look at 65 ter 2733.

22        Q.   It's dated 8th of August, 1995, from the garrison HQ, signed by

23     General Cermak as an order and sent to the commander of the logistics

24     brigade.  And we can see here the various aspects of logistics that he is

25     dealing with in this order.  I won't read them out as we'll lose more

Page 13108

 1     time, but I think everything can see it.

 2             First of all, do you recognise this document?

 3        A.   I believe I do.  Could I just see the bottom of the document,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

 6        A.   Okay.

 7        Q.   In both languages.  Do you recognise it now?

 8        A.   Yes, I believe I do.  I'm not sure whether I used it, but, yeah,

 9     it doesn't look like an unusual document for a garrison commander.

10        Q.   Yes.  It was footnote 982.

11        A.   Oh, yeah.  Thank you.

12        Q.   And I thank Mr. Mak for that.

13             This kind of document which was issued on the 8th of August is

14     one of the first documents issued by General Cermak.  Isn't that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   We have one document that you're anxious for us to say, and we'll

17     get there, dated the 5th of August, about which there is some mystery.

18     And then all the other documents are dated the 8th of August.

19        A.   Whether I'm anxious or not, I don't think that is important.

20        Q.   I'm filling in the gaps for you, Because the 8th of August is a

21     day when the first orders are issued.

22        A.   Well, the document of the 5th has the date of the 5th, but I

23     agree with you that in the numbering this is an inconsistency.

24        Q.   You have been doing some homework, I see.

25             In relation to this, these are all standard logistic-type tasks;

Page 13109

 1     don't you agree?

 2        A.   Yes.  And it is also in line with the earlier information you

 3     provided, in relation to the role of the Knin garrison command in order

 4     to -- to normalize life in the city and re-establish certain services.

 5     You will need logistics base as well as engineers and other specialized

 6     military units.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  D1017, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D1017 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. KAY:  Can we have 65 ter 3218.

14        Q.   This is dated the 9th of August, 1995, an order concerning

15     carrying out of tasks of provisions, supply and maintenance of materiel,

16     and equipment and concerns the Knin garrison and the Sibenik logistics

17     base, as well as the Zadar logistics base.

18             Again, do you agree that these are all tasks which are required

19     to be undertaken to try and get supplies and services established within

20     the town of Knin?

21        A.   Indeed.  And as the Knin garrison is part of the Split Military

22     District, General Cermak has to send his order also to General Gotovina,

23     because it concerns units or logistics bases of General Gotovina.

24        Q.   Yes.

25             MR. KAY:  May this documenting made an exhibit, Your Honour.

Page 13110

 1             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1018, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D1018 is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. KAY:  65 ter 2295.

 6        Q.   This is a similar order dated the 10th of August, and concerns

 7     the Sibenik logistics base taking over a petrol station at the Slavko

 8     Rodic barracks.  And the supply of fuel and other supplies necessary.

 9             Again, a typical and essential part as between the duties of the

10     garrison in trying to establish itself as one of the servicing parts of

11     the Military District.  Is that right?

12        A.   Yes.  And to be really specific, it is included in Article 54 of

13     D32 that the garrison command has a responsibility in organizing fuel

14     stations for the units of the district as well as passing units.

15        Q.   Absolutely.  Correct.  Thank you.

16             MR. KAY:  May this document be made a can exhibit, Your Honour.

17             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1019, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D1019 is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. KAY:  Next document is D763.

22        Q.   It's the 12th of August, 1995, footnote 1007 for you.

23        A.   Indeed.  Page 250.

24        Q.   Yes.  And it concerns the urgent clearing of a military depot in

25     Plavno with the aim of making the return of the population to the

Page 13111

 1     settlement as flexible and fast as possible.

 2             And the order is to clear the facility and terrain, and we can

 3     see it is to deal with mines, explosives, and a commission is appointed,

 4     and that the resources be transferred to the logistics base in Sibenik.

 5             Now, is this part of the usual duties of the garrison?

 6        A.   We can first establish that Plavno is located within the zone of

 7     responsibility of the Knin garrison, as it is established in D33.

 8             Now, I would say, to the -- to the second aspect of your

 9     question, I would say yes.  Why?  Because this is a military facility

10     which in this particular case has been taken over from the enemy forces

11     who have been left, and that facility may then be used for the benefits

12     of the units of the Split Military District, i.e., it fits in the

13     territorial responsibility of a garrison command, and it could well be

14     that - but I'm not familiar enough with the location of Plavno - that the

15     clearing of this depot will also facilitate I don't know the use of an

16     access road as appears to be suggested in the first -- in the

17     introduction of the order.

18        Q.   In fact, its terms are for more getting munitions out of there,

19     to making the area safe; isn't it?

20        A.   Yes, indeed.

21        Q.   Rather than the Croatian army using the facility.

22        A.   I agree that the future use of the facility is not specified in

23     the order.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             Can we turn to the next document, which is 65 ter 2838, which is

Page 13112

 1     footnote 1008, same page in your report.

 2             And it doesn't have a date on it, but it's the report after they

 3     had been there on the previous day, and it was an order by Major Gojevic,

 4     in fact, the colonel, Mr. Frkic states that caused guards to be deployed

 5     and reconnaissance by explosives experts, and we can see what happened to

 6     it and that there is a report on the matter.

 7             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, out of completeness, may this be made an

 8     exhibit, please.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1020, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D1020 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Can we have 65 ter 853, which is not in your report.  It's dated

15     13th of August, 1995.  It's a letter from the medical centre in Knin,

16     sent to General Cermak, and it's a request.  And the director of the

17     medical centre, Dr. Viskovic asks for the approval of the assignment of a

18     soldier of the logistics base to the hospital to be an ambulance driver,

19     and he has been doing that job to date and is the only driver we have.

20             Usual job of the garrison or outside the jobs of the garrison?

21        A.   If a military medical centre, I would say yes.  Based on the

22     document, it is not a military medical centre, so I would categorise this

23     request - and we don't know whether it has been granted - falling under

24     the duties as civilian authority General Cermak was accomplishing while

25     he was the garrison commander.

Page 13113

 1        Q.   Otherwise known as helping out the community with a soldier, if

 2     you can.  Wouldn't that be right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   It's a request.  It's not to do with necessarily authority but in

 5     difficult times, sometimes people are expected to help out, don't you

 6     agree, in an inform way?

 7        A.   Yes.  But again talking from the military point of view, the

 8     reassignment of people even if there are Noble or human motives behind

 9     it, has to be regulated by a procedure, and such a procedure involves

10     that orders are given and documents are made.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KAY:  May this exhibit -- may this document be made an

13     exhibit, Your Honour.

14             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  D1021, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D1021 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. KAY:  Various other similar documents that I can put into a

19     bar table, Your Honour, rather than spend too long on them as they go to

20     the same issue.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Talk about bar table documents, Mr. Waespi, did you

22     have an opportunity to review the first bar table -- table with four

23     entries on it.

24             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, and also the descriptions are -- are accurate.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Accurate and the comments, you do not object to

Page 13114

 1     them?

 2             MR. WAESPI:  No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll further proceed with them.

 4             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. KAY:  I'm grateful to Your Honour.

 7        Q.   The last document in this, and it's the hospital again, 65 ter

 8     5517, and for completeness, I'll deal with it.

 9        A.   Yeah, that is footnote 1002 in my report.

10        Q.   Yes, and 1004.  So it is a document you recognise.

11        A.   Mm-hm.

12        Q.   It's dated the 30th August 1995, and General Cermak issues an

13     order to the logistics as well as medical corps about the hospital not

14     capable of functioning independently effective possible reception and

15     transportation of the wounded to major health care institutions, and so

16     he orders an ambulance to be made available and a driver and that they

17     should be helped logistically.  Presumably there is no further comment on

18     that document.  Is that right?

19        A.   It is in line with the previous document you showed.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I produced it for completeness.

21             MR. KAY:  May it be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

22             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1022, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D1022 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. KAY:

Page 13115

 1        Q.   In your report, you refer to fish farms, because this is an

 2     issue --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, sorry to interrupt you.  Can I ask one

 4     additional question.

 5             Earlier you said it was quite understandable that a document

 6     which you order the support or the assistance from units which are not in

 7     the strict sense units of the Knin garrison but are under the command of

 8     the Split Military District, that -- for that reason, a copy would be

 9     sent to General Gotovina.

10             Now, in view of this last document, I see that there was an order

11     that an ambulance be made available, that a driver should be provided by

12     the 306th Logistic Base, Sibenik and that there is an order to give

13     further assistance, further help.

14             Now, I do not see that this is copied to General Gotovina.  It's

15     just the logistic brigade and the chief of the medical corps, I take it,

16     for the ambulance.  Is there any explanation, where you earlier explained

17     that that would be the logical thing to do, that is it is not done here

18     and is just for me an example.  I'm not saying that I systematically

19     reviewed documents on this aspect.

20             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, there are different possibilities.  It

21     could be an omission which I think is not likely, but what I believe is a

22     more likely option that when we look at the date, it is 30th of August so

23     the Knin garrison has been operating already for quite sometime and has

24     also been sending several requests, so a likely option is there has been

25     a coordination between Generals Gotovina and Cermak, whereby General

Page 13116

 1     Gotovina authorises General Cermak to direct requests for assistance of

 2     units -- excuse me, assistance by units of the Split Military District

 3     directly to the units and that General Gotovina has also informed the

 4     units, first and foremost the 306th logistics base, that they are to

 5     fulfil orders by General Cermak directly without each and every order

 6     being systematically submitted or CCed to General Gotovina.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Such an agreement, that is just an assumption.

 8             THE WITNESS:  That is an assumption.  I have not seen such an

 9     agreement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Kay, please proceed.

12             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I was going to go to fish

13     farms, but in view of Your Honours' questioning there and taking up this

14     matter, and I introduced it as fish farms, I will move to another section

15     of cross-examination which Your Honour might find helpful on this matter.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I find all of your cross-examination helpful, as

17     from the others, Defence teams.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   We'll go to a section now, lack of authority, and I'd like to

21     look at 65 ter 3219 first.  Footnote 1053, Mr. Theunens.

22             This is a document dated the 9th of August, and it concerns the

23     need for logistic support, and we see a Colonel Frkic is ordered to be

24     temporarily transferred to the Knin garrison.  We may remember him in the

25     previous orders we've just looked at being involved approximate the

Page 13117

 1     Plavno munitions.  I don't know whether you were able to take on board

 2     the name, but this is the first time he surfaces on the 9th of

 3     August with this order.

 4             MR. KAY:  May this be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1023.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D1023 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

10        Q.   The next document following this is D759, Exhibit D759, footnote

11     78 in the addendum.  And it's dated the 9th of August, and it's from

12     General Cermak again being an order to the -- or an order and delivered

13     to General Gotovina, the command of the 306th in Split and the --

14     commander of the Sibenik 306th, both logistics bases, and we know

15     Major Jonjic from the previous documents we have been looking at and

16     saying the need for a logistic support to the Croatian army units and

17     civilian organs of the Knin garrison and considering that situation, so

18     this order is made concerning Major Jonjic.

19             If we move on now to D758.  This document is dated the 12th of

20     August, 1995, and it comes from the commander of the 306th Logistics Base

21     in Split.  And it describes following General Cermak's order on the 9th

22     of August, as Major Jonjic leaving his duty of his own free will and

23     making himself available to the Knin garrison commander by which the

24     system of command in the 306th has been seriously disrupted.  And we see

25     that there is to be a disciplinary procedure, and the content of -- of

Page 13118

 1     the letter, and it is sent to the aforesaid person, including General

 2     Gotovina.

 3             Did you appreciate, when drafting your report, this issue of the

 4     lack of authority of General Cermak to make such commands to other units

 5     of the Split Military District?

 6        A.   I believe that I have addressed this earlier and in the addendum

 7     I have also 65 ter 5773, and I believe it has been tendered, where

 8     General Cermak explains to the commander of the 306th logistics base that

 9     the reassignment of major Jonjic has been authorised by General Gotovina,

10     and this is, as I said, something I mentioned earlier.  If the Knin

11     garrison needs personnel or logistics support from a unit from the Split

12     Military District, military logic would mean that General Cermak has to

13     ask the authorisation or has agree as to obtain the agreement of

14     General Gotovina, i.e., the superior commander of this particular unit of

15     the Split Military District, before such a reassignment can take place.

16     And that's exactly what General Cermak explains in 65 ter 5773.

17        Q.   That is Exhibit D760 --

18        A.   Yeah, thank you.

19        Q.    -- which we can now proceed to.  Appearing in the addendum, but

20     your explanation now is not the same explanation that you had in your

21     first report.  Is that right?

22        A.   To my recollection, D760, if it is 65 ter 5773, was not included

23     in the version of the report that was filed in December 2007 but is only

24     included in the addendum.

25        Q.   That's what I said.  And the explanation of General Cermak not

Page 13119

 1     being able to subordinate people without going through the proper

 2     procedures was not in your first report, was it?

 3        A.   In --

 4        Q.   The report that was served as your final expert's report before

 5     the Court.

 6        A.   That is correct.  Do you want me to explain or ...

 7        Q.   Well, shall I put this to you because it leaves the impression

 8     that General Cermak is able to make these orders because he is the

 9     superior authority and can do this and can do that, without you having

10     provided the full picture of the limitations, so if you could address

11     that issue.

12        A.   If I had had D760 at the time of the filing of the final report

13     in December 2007, I would have obviously have included it to explain what

14     I just said here during my testimony; that is that the reassignment of

15     subordinates which belong to another unit can -- no commander in the

16     military can do it.  The commander of infantry battalion A cannot

17     reassign or cannot say well, I want a platoon of battalion B without

18     having the consent of the brigade commander, i.e., the next superior

19     echelon, and this is exactly we see here.

20             The only difference is that we have seen a number of documents

21     both for logistical support as well as for personnel, whereby

22     General Cermak, on the basis of the document, issued the order directly

23     without consulting or notifying or having the agreement of the superior

24     commander.  And, as I said, I didn't have D760 at the time of the filing

25     of the first version of the report.

Page 13120

 1        Q.   This was a document that the Defence put into evidence, but it

 2     was a Prosecution document.  It was within your database, as you can see,

 3     on the heading of the document, and what I'm concerned about is why a

 4     document such as this, which may give a full explanation, was unable to

 5     be located by you as part of your methodology for the preparation of the

 6     report.

 7        A.   It is included in the addendum, and as far as I am concerned, the

 8     addendum has the same value as the report itself.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, the question apparently -- and I'm

10     intervening because I see a similar malcommunication arising.

11             Mr. Kay didn't ask you whether the addendum had the same value or

12     not.  Mr. Kay was concerned about if you missed this document in the

13     first report and that it only came up in the addendum.  That's what he

14     puts to you, although he didn't ask any question, I take it that he

15     wanted your comment on that.

16             MR. KAY:

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   I can only make the same observation as you do.  I mean in

19     relation that it's not included in the final version that was filed in

20     December 2007, but I did not provide an additional explanation.  There is

21     no particular reason for that.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Exhibit D769, please.  65 ter 535, a request for

23     vehicles to the transport and technical administration, dated the 11th of

24     August, and we can see the types of vehicles they are, issued by

25     General Cermak to that particular section of the Croatian military.

Page 13121

 1             Again, indicating, firstly, that the garrison didn't have these

 2     kinds of resources at its disposal when it was started.  Do you agree?

 3        A.   Well, the document only states that the garrison wants to have

 4     these vehicles.  They may have had similar vehicles; I don't know.  But

 5     this is a request for additional vehicles.

 6        Q.   Do you know if they had similar vehicles, refrigerator trucks,

 7     pick-up trucks, all-terrain vehicles, vans?  Do you know?  Have you done

 8     any research on that?

 9        A.   I -- I have not done any specific research on the vehicles of the

10     Knin garrison.

11        Q.   On the resources that were available to it?  Have you researched

12     that?

13        A.   I have answered the question.

14        Q.   No.  I'm asking it again, and please would you do the courtesy of

15     answering.  The resources.

16        A.   I --

17        Q.   I am asking about the resources available to the garrison.  You

18     have provided an expert report giving your opinion on the position in

19     Knin, and I am questioning you as an expert.

20        A.   Do you mean -- could you please specify the word "resources."

21        Q.   Vehicles at their disposal, computers, telephones.

22        A.   I have not done any specific --

23        Q.   Storage?

24        A.   Storage?

25        Q.   Yeah.

Page 13122

 1        A.   Please explain what you mean by "storage."

 2        Q.   Resources, where you put things, where you can store things.

 3        A.   I have not done any specific research on resources, including

 4     storage of the Knin garrison.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this -- it's already an exhibit.

 7             Can we look now at D761.

 8        Q.   Footnote 1053.  This is dated the 11th of August, 1995.  It's --

 9     concerns operational needs of the Knin garrison, and it's an order by

10     General Cermak temporarily assigning people from the ranks of the 142nd,

11     and we see their names, and he sends it to the 142nd.

12             Do you know if this order was complied with by the commander of

13     the 142nd?

14        A.   I am familiar with D764 which is actually an order by

15     General Gotovina to the commander of the 142nd to provide the manpower

16     requested by General Cermak.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             We've looked at D763.  And there is another order at D765

19     concerning the need for people and a request for temporary transfer.  Can

20     we see that, please.  22nd of August, 1995, which is footnote 1001.  And

21     it's to the 1st Croatian Guards Corps, Colonel General Cuk - apologies if

22     I got his name wrong - request for temporary transfer, and we see various

23     people named there.  And it refers in the letter to a Colonel Gregorovic

24     being informed of the request in a letter dated the 15th of August and

25     asking that this be resolved promptly.

Page 13123

 1             Was this resolved then, or did it take even more time for this

 2     matter to be resolved; do you know?

 3        A.   I have not seen a document that allows to draw a conclusion on

 4     this aspect.

 5        Q.   Right.  We will get to one later on.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question.

 7             There was an earlier request with, I think, seven names which

 8     Mr. Cermak would like to have available to assist him, and I think it was

 9     from the -- was it the -- let me just check.  Was it from the 142nd?

10             Now you said, I know of an another document, which is a totally

11     different number of people involved there.  So, therefore, when you

12     referred to that other document, which is D - let me just check - D764,

13     you're not talking about seven or eight persons, but we're talk being a

14     totally different number.  I think it is all together --

15             THE WITNESS:  I believe 30 people, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it refers to a list, and it says the list of

17     military conscripts.  Knin is 69, Kijevo is 78.  So that -- you -- you

18     linked the two documents.  There's a difference in time as well.  I think

19     the request was from the 12th of August, and the document you refer to is

20     of the 22nd of August.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps not the 22nd.  Let me just check.  Yes, I

23     think it was.  Yes, it was the 22nd of August.

24             THE WITNESS:  I see now that I was confused, Your Honours,

25     because the document shown by Mr. Kay refers to the 142nd Home Guard

Page 13124

 1     Regiment.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS:  And I had seen -- I made the link to D764 because

 4     it is also the 142nd.  But D764 is actually linked to D766.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So you did it by mistake.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So then I don't have to worry anymore about dates

 8     and numbers of conscripts involved.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. KAY:  I'm not going to do a complicated exercise here of

11     cross-referencing names.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but you will understand that if you put a

13     document to Mr. Theunens about seven people, and if he refers to a

14     document of well over 100 people that, at least, it comes into my mind

15     that it may be a mistake or something unexplained.

16             MR. KAY:  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS:  If you allow me, the document we see now is from

18     the military point of view a different situation because here

19     General Cermak requests people from a unit, 1st Croatian guard corps,

20     which is directly subordinated to the Main Staff, so this is not a unit

21     of the Split Military District.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say the other one was.  You made a mistake

23     when you referred to D764 and the document we find on our screen at this

24     moment is not of the same character because it is a unit not subordinated

25     to General Gotovina.

Page 13125

 1             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.  Whereas D764, 766 are subordinated -- or

 2     concerned units of the Split Military District.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KAY:

 6        Q.   22nd of August, if we look at that, D765, request for temporary

 7     transfer, the one we were looking at.  That's the one on the screen.

 8     Sorry, we have been looking at several documents, and I lost my place.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Sometimes I -- otherwise I lose track, Mr. Kay.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

12        Q.   You see this dated 22nd of August, and the request he makes and

13     the need for it being promptly made.  If we go to check the names.

14        A.   If you allow me, the fact that it apparently took more than a

15     week, this also seems like -- I won't say an unusual procedure, but we

16     have a garrison commander who asks for reinforcement in personnel from a

17     unit which is subordinated directly to the Main Staff, whereas it would

18     be more usual from the military point of view that the garrison

19     commander, when he needs additional personnel, seeks that support within

20     the Military District he belongs to.  And this can be one of the reasons

21     why, based on this document, it appears that the processing of the

22     request takes more time.

23        Q.   The names may be important as they may feature in other documents

24     doing other tasks at various times.  So we can bear them in mind Vuk,

25     Teskeredzic, et cetera.

Page 13126

 1             If we pull up 2D07-0151, we will see the original request which

 2     apparently wasn't granted by the 22nd.  And it's dated the 15th of

 3     August, and it is for Ensign Perkovic who is referred to in that previous

 4     document.  So 2D07-0151, we can see this was send to Colonel Gregorovic

 5     on 15th of August, and the exceptional need, et cetera, concerning

 6     pyrotechnical clearance of the terrain.

 7             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  Negotiations.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1024, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D1024 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. KAY:  2D07-0153 and 2D07-0155 are the similar requests, Your

13     Honour, which I will bar table so that we save five minutes, if that's --

14     [Overlapping speakers] ...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Put it on paper, describe it, any comment, give it

16     to Mr. Waespi, and then we look at it.

17             MR. KAY:  And they are the other two mentioned in that request of

18     the 15th of August 2D07-0157.

19             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, just to clarify the 1st Guards Corps

20     was a unit which could be used all over Croatia because it is at the

21     highest level.  It was also known as the presidential guard, so it is not

22     a unit which is used as in the same manner or the same circumstances as,

23     let's say, the average corps or the average unit; it is an elite unit

24     with particular requirements to the personnel with particular equipment.

25     And again without going into the details of -- of the particular request

Page 13127

 1     by General Cermak, the fact that a garrison commander requests human

 2     resources from this elite unit is rather unusual.

 3             So this could explain why maybe the -- request was not

 4     immediately granted or maybe was never granted.  It doesn't necessarily

 5     mean that the person who makes the request has a lot or -- has more or

 6     less authority.  It is only related to the fact that it's a special unit

 7     with a special subordination for very specific operations, and I believe

 8     that is important in this context.

 9             MR. KAY:

10        Q.   Well, thank you very much, and this goes to what Mr. Cermak could

11     or could not do, and 2D07-0157 is a request dated the 19th of August to

12     the guard's corp.  May this be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

14             MR. WAESPI:  Is that the document we see on the screen now?

15             MR. KAY:  Yes.

16             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1025, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  D1025 is admitted into

20     evidence.

21             Mr. Kay, do we have to explore at all that at least in this

22     letter we do not see any reference to the task already being performed by

23     the person, whereas in the other letter, it did say he is doing the job

24     already.

25             MR. KAY:  Yeah.  Your Honour, I am avoiding going into too much

Page 13128

 1     detail here because it is a broad.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not judging you.  It's just --

 3             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  What I do as a matter of fact, is making you aware

 5     of that I, at least, saw a slight difference, and I leave it to you what

 6     the relevance is and whether you want to explore it.

 7             MR. KAY:  The next one does have a name of interest.  2D07-0159,

 8     also of the 19th of August.  And it a request for mobilization to the

 9     Ministry of Defence pyrotechnical clearance of the terrain.  And amongst

10     the names, we see Brigadier Teskeredzic, whose name we will see in a

11     number of different parts.

12             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be an exhibit.

13             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1026, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D1026 is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. KAY:  And 2D07-0161, a document dated the 19th of August,

18     1995, to the Rudjer Boskovic institute in Zagreb, and it's a request for

19     relief from employment.  And it is the same letter from before but solely

20     involving Brigadier Teskeredzic in order to carry out activities.

21             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

22             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1027, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D1027 is admitted into evidence.

Page 13129

 1             MR. KAY:  Can we have 65 ter 3184.

 2        Q.   A document dated 6th of August -- 6th of September, 1995 from

 3     General Gotovina to the Knin garrison, and it concerns mobilization of

 4     serviceman, our response.  And it refers to the fact of a letter

 5     addressed to the defence ministry, administration for organisation,

 6     reinforcement and mobilisation of armed forces in relation to a request

 7     to mobilise Brigadier Teskeredzic, a Colonel Domancic, and a

 8     Lieutenant Tomsic, and that had been relayed to the General Staff for an

 9     operational assessment whereupon the defence minister was given the

10     request, and he didn't agree to the mobilisation of the individuals.

11             Anything you would like to comment on about that?

12        A.   You can find this document on page 261 of part 2.  I didn't draw

13     any particular conclusions on the document because it is only one

14     document.  If you want I can comment here in the sense that -- again, it

15     is it only one comment so it is a hypotheses I make.  If a garrison

16     commander needs additional resources, he would -- I mean resources in the

17     sense of personnel -- he would first ask his -- excuse me, his Military

18     District Commander for that personnel.  If then - because we are talking

19     about very specialized personnel - the Military District Commander is not

20     able to provide the personnel, it would be up to the Military District

21     Commander to make the request we saw earlier made by General Cermak to

22     the Main Staff, and then the Main Staff would relay or forward the matter

23     or would give an advice to the Ministry of Defence, whereby then the

24     reply would be transferred in the way as it is done in this document,

25     i.e., from the ministry, to the chief of the Main Staff, to the chief of

Page 13130

 1     the Military District, and then to the garrison commander.

 2        Q.   And taking this story further, if the last document could be made

 3     an exhibit, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1028, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D1028 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. KAY:  Can we see Exhibit D767, which is footnote 1065 but is

 9     actually part of this sequence.

10        Q.   And it's a document from General Gotovina on the 20th of

11     September, 1995.  Again, referring to the exceptional needs for

12     pyrotechnical restoring of the ground, buildings, and removal of the

13     mines.  And says:  "Mobilise the following:  For military post 3231

14     Knin," which is the garrison.

15             May we turn to page 2 in the English.  You would have seen it

16     already in the Croatian language.  We see Brigadier Teskeredzic again,

17     Domancic, Tomsic, and some other names.  Where they are to report to, to

18     be received by.  And on page 3 the execution of the tasks, following the

19     execution of the tasks, demobilize the conscripts, issue them with

20     certificates, et cetera.

21             So there we are.  While you have been looking at these particular

22     documents and we have been following this history of some of these people

23     is to show that General Cermak just couldn't pluck soldiers from the

24     Croatian military system to come and work with him without causing some

25     difficulty.  Isn't that right?

Page 13131

 1        A.   Indeed.  The documents we have shown or you have shown indicate

 2     that efforts are made to have procedures for the reassignment of

 3     personnel be respected, and what I explained in my previous reply is, in

 4     my view, confirmed by this order by General Gotovina.

 5        Q.   If we can go to 65 ter 638, which is footnote 1003.  I think it

 6     might have been made an exhibit, actually, as I look at it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  I'm checking right now.

 9             MR. KAY:  No, it hasn't.  It hasn't.  It was going to be, but I

10     have to restrict my time.

11        Q.   This is a document dated the 18th of August, and there had been a

12     request from the garrison in order to ensure the completion of work and

13     establish traffic on the Knin-Gracac route and an order for 30 soldiers

14     to be made available.

15             Page 2, soldiers are made available to the Croatian railways on

16     the 19th of August.  Colonel Fuzul responsible for implementation of the

17     order.  And it's signed by Brigadier Ademi.

18             Again, is this the appropriate procedure by which extra soldiers

19     would be able to be used for garrison tasks within the military system?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

23             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D1029.

Page 13132

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D1029 is admitted into evidence.

 2             One question, Mr. Theunens, I'm seeking clarification.

 3             If we have seen what it took to have the military personnel

 4     available to the needs of Mr. Cermak, now, the fact that some people were

 5     not yet mobilized, is that a factor which complicates matters, and, if

 6     so, what are the powers, and I might have missed something in reading,

 7     what are the powers of operational commanders in mobilizing military

 8     persons?  That is not entirely clear to me.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, indeed in the previous document we

10     saw that it was the Military District Commander, General Gotovina, who

11     could order the mobilisation of a number of specialized officers.  The

12     fact that they have not yet been mobilized of course complicates their

13     availability because they may be accomplishing other important tasks, so

14     if they have to be mobilized even if it's in the very short-term, it will

15     still coast time.

16             I'm not aware of any specific regulations which determine from

17     what level onwards an operational commander has the power to mobilise

18     personnel.  I cannot say whether it is already at the brigade commander's

19     level or only at the Military District Commander's level or higher, as

20     the previous document indicates.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it true that in one of the previous document, but

22     again we go through them very quickly, so I might have missed something

23     as well.  As a matter of fact, a request to have some of these persons

24     mobilized was denied by, I would say, the military administrative level

25     -- at the Ministry of Defence.  Could you explain how that one level the

Page 13133

 1     request for mobilisation is denied, and then by, apparently, an

 2     operational commander that these persons are -- or at least one of them

 3     is mobilized.

 4             THE WITNESS:  It is unusual when we look at the document in which

 5     General Gotovina orders the mobilization because indeed one would expect

 6     that it's decided at the Main Staff level or even Ministry of Defence

 7     level.  Now again I would have to look again at the documents, and maybe

 8     there are reference to particular regulations or particular other

 9     documents in order to come to a more authorative conclusion, but an

10     explanation could lay in the fact that maybe some of these people were

11     doing tasks, i.e., while they were not mobilized in the Ministry of

12     Defence or a -- a body which fell under the authority -- authority of the

13     Ministry of Defence.

14             Again, that is not an authorative conclusion, but it could

15     explain what happened in these two documents.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

18             MR. KAY:  And Your Honour was referring to Exhibit D1028 for

19     reference purposes, that document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the document I think in which

21     General Gotovina ordered the mobilization of a number of persons.

22             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And my reference was to an earlier -- and forgive me

24     that I haven't got --

25             MR. KAY:  No.  That's the document that where he referred to the

Page 13134

 1     fact that the request had been denied by the Ministry of Defence.

 2             THE WITNESS:  That is correct.  That was the first document, but

 3     the second document Your Honours is talking about.  There we see that

 4     General Gotovina issues an order to have these people mobilized.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Can Exhibit D767, Mr. President, if I may.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Just to refresh your recollection and the witness'

 8     recollection, the introduction says that General Gotovina is doing that

 9     pursuant to the agreement of the Minister of Defence and pursuant to an

10     order that he has received from the Main Staff.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I must have missed it.

12             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  thank you very much for

14     this assistance which certainly clarifies the question.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

17        Q.   There have been a series of exhibits in the case where you're

18     probably aware of all of these, whereby there's been a request by the

19     garrison for soldiers to do necessary, and it's been clearing up work,

20     cleaning up work, and establishing traffic.

21             If we look at one that hasn't been exhibited, and I raise it

22     because you mentioned 30 soldiers, 65 ter 638, which is your footnote

23     D1029.

24        A.   1003.

25        Q.   All right.  No, sorry, I'm being pointed to something else.

Page 13135

 1             Exhibit D1029 we've looked at.  Thank you very much.  Sorry, it's

 2     probably an indication that it is time for a break, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You need some rest, Mr. Kay.  We might need it as

 4     well and Mr. Theunens also.

 5             We will have a break and resume at ten minutes past 4.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Not for the first time, apologies for the late

 9     start.

10             Mr. Kay, please proceed.

11             MR. KAY:  May we have exhibit 65 ter 722, please.

12        Q.   And this is just finishing up with the explosive an ordnance

13     disposal teams we have been looking at, Mr. Theunens.  It's a document

14     dated the 22nd September, and it's a by Dr. Teskeredzic who we have seen

15     in the various orders, various requests, and as well, Major Vuk and

16     others.

17             Do you recognise this document?

18        A.   I do, Your Honours.  It is included in footnote 1001 in part 2 of

19     the report, English page 248.

20             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much.  May this document be made an

21     exhibit, Your Honour, may we just --

22             MR. WAESPI:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1030, Your Honours.

25             MR. KAY:  I was on auto pilot.  May we turn to page 2.

Page 13136

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this a withdrawal of tendering?

 2             MR. KAY:  No, no.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let deal with that first.

 4             D1030 is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm sorry about that.  I

 6     was --

 7             Can we turn to page 2, or we have already.

 8        Q.   And we can see the facilities there of the type of work that they

 9     were doing in clearing the area in relation to munitions.

10             And if we could just go to the next report, 65 ter 712.  It's

11     another report of the same date, also by Dr. Teskeredzic, and it refers

12     to an inspection of a facility and mines being in wells and detonators

13     and returning to Knin on that day.

14             Is that a document you recognise?

15        A.   I do.  It's included in the same footnote as previously

16     mentioned, 1001.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KAY:  May this be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

19             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1031, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D1031 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, the next document just tidying this up, is

24     65 ter 714 which we will bar table, rather than looking at a similar

25     document again.

Page 13137

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll find it on our list.

 2             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   I have already asked you about the number of requests that

 4     Mr. Cermak made for men to help in clearing up the railway, the town,

 5     et cetera, which you're aware of and which have been made exhibits.  We

 6     won't go into those in your evidence, because there's no real need.

 7             MR. KAY:  If we go to 65 ter 2389.

 8        Q.   This is a document dated the 17th of August, 1995, sent by the

 9     Split Military District Command to the Knin garrison, and it concerns

10     demobilization of buildings.  And you can see that there had been an

11     order in February 1995 and there was a new situation following the

12     liberation of occupied parts of Croatia.  We can see the terms of the

13     order, and it requires an inventory list to be made.  Notice about the

14     state of buildings that a unit is leaving, and we can see the duties

15     there.

16             Are you able to help us as to the nature of this type of order to

17     the garrison?

18        A.   Your Honours, this falls within the responsibilities or the

19     duties of the garrison commander because within the territory of the

20     garrison there are military facilities which are used by several units.

21     There can be training areas, there can be depots, fuel stations as we

22     discussed earlier.  Other buildings of military interest, which where no

23     specific unit is located but which are managed and kept operating -- or

24     operated by the garrison command.

25        Q.   And what was the need for these tasks at this time, on the 17th

Page 13138

 1     of August?

 2        A.   We can find that in the introduction of the order.  Croatia has

 3     recovered part of its territory which was under Serb control, and

 4     obviously there were military facilities or buildings of military

 5     interest located in these territories.  They may have been different

 6     conditions, some may be destroyed and others not, and so on, and so on.

 7     And now an order is issued to prepare lists as are specified in

 8     paragraphs 1 to 4 on the state of the buildings and related aspects.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

11             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1032.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D1032 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. KAY:  Right, that deals with that section of matters.

16        Q.   And I will go back to fish farms which you refer to in your

17     report, and this section is at page 247 of your report, where you say

18     that Cermak appoints an administrator, and you have got footnote 988 and

19     other personnel, 989, for the fish farm in Knin, and he orders to take

20     control over military farms in the area of the Knin garrison, and Cermak

21     is kept informed of the situation at the fish farm in Knin, which is your

22     footnote 991.

23             Let's go to that footnote, which is 65 ter 5523.

24             In fact, we can see that this is from Dr. Teskeredzic whom we

25     have seen in many of the previous documents involving munitions and other

Page 13139

 1     tasks, as well as a request for him to work for Mr. Cermak, to his

 2     employer as well as to have him mobilized to him.

 3             You'll see that this is dated the 10th of August, and this is the

 4     report.  And it describes on 9th of August, the trout farm in Knin being

 5     visited by a Mr. Juros, minister of agriculture, Dr. Tadic director of

 6     the veterinary administration, Dr. Teskeredzic himself from the

 7     Rudjer Boskovic institute, and a Dr. Margus from the Krka National Park

 8     for the purpose of ascertaining the general situation in the fish arm in

 9     order to carry out measures for the protection of the fish stocks and

10     equipment.

11             Then follows a sorry tale of the farm being broken open, as well

12     as doors, work rooms, ransacked, equipment stolen, laboratory devastated,

13     smashed.  No cleaning of the nets and grills.  We see on page 2 that the

14     fish had escaped into the sedimentation pool, and prompt measures for

15     repair were required on the 10th, and the cleaning of the pools, feeding

16     of the fish.  And we can see Dr. Teskeredzic and a Mr. Modrusan and

17     Mr. Roman and Mr. Margus from the Krka National Park, who with their own

18     hands, did the cleaning, and we see information about the fish.

19             Page three is more information about fry sizes and trout weights;

20     won't go into that.

21             MR. KAY:  Can we go to page 4.

22             After a general visual inspection of the facilities and fish, we

23     propose the following measures:  Close the facilities, entrances to the

24     facilities, ensure a 24-hour watch, military police to prevent theft,

25     provide workers, appoint a temporary manager, make an inventory,

Page 13140

 1     resources, carry out trial measuring and weighing, and it's signed by

 2     Dr. Teskeredzic again.

 3             Mr. Theunens, this is actually a report to Mr. Cermak of the

 4     situation at the farm, rather than a report after he had made

 5     appointments.  Do you appreciate that?  In your report at page 247, you

 6     deal with the appointments, and in the last sentence you say:  "Cermak is

 7     kept informed of the situation at the fish farm."

 8             In fact, this is where it all starts, is the report to Mr. Cermak

 9     to start it all.  You've got it in the reverse order of events.

10        A.   Yes.  But I don't think that that changes anything to what is put

11     in the report.  He  appoints an administrator whether it is following the

12     proposal of Dr. Teskeredzic or not.  It would seem from when we first

13     look at the report as do you now that, indeed, the logical sequence would

14     be that the appointment follows the proposal, but I don't think that has

15     a major complication for the contents of my report.

16        Q.   Well, you're an analyst.  You're here as an expert analyst, and

17     in looking these documents, you got it the wrong way round.

18        A.   Your Honours, I don't think that the wording of paragraph (e),

19     echo, on English page 247 suggests any sequence or chronological sequence

20     of events.  If it does, I apologise, because that is not my intention.  I

21     just put there information in relation to the aspect of the fish farms

22     and the role of General Cermak in that context.  That's my only

23     intention.

24             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

25             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

Page 13141

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1033, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D1033 is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. KAY:

 5        Q.   Following on, if we produce 65 ter 5537, which is your footnote

 6     988.

 7             MR. KAY:  5537, 65 ter 5537.  Originally, I saw the right one in

 8     Croatian but the wrong one in -- in English.  There we are, in Croatian,

 9     at least, and the English will, no doubt, follow.

10        Q.   And it's just the appointment by Mr. Cermak on the 10th of the

11     man, Mr. Roman, mentioned in that report amongst the proposals by

12     Dr. Teskeredzic relating to appointments.

13             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

14             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D1034.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D1034 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. KAY:  The next document I will bar table which is also

19     related to that -- that matter, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think all the documents under (e) are of the 10th

21     of August.

22             MR. KAY:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  At least what the footnotes tell us.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13142

 1        Q.   Just moving on to the issue, as you call them, military farms --

 2             MR. KAY:  65 ter 5519.

 3        Q.   It's actually military estates and their buildings, Mr. Theunens.

 4        A.   I agree with you, it could that I used another ERN for the

 5     translation, and I assume there the term "farm" was used instead of

 6     "estates," but it must relate to the same object.

 7        Q.   Yeah.  I think there was a mistranslation in the system that has

 8     now been revised.  Ministry of Defence military estates, buildings, and

 9     equipment, these were matters that were -- or places that were owned by

10     government institution; namely the Ministry of Defence.  Is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And in relation to the buildings and where they were located, are

13     you able to help us, in relation to such matters?

14        A.   No.  I have no specific knowledge as to the location of military

15     estates or military farms in the area covered by the Knin garrison.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, have I been given a message that the

17     revision of the translation was spotted by my team, and the OTP need to

18     say whether they object or not, and no doubt they will take instructions.

19     I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

21             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, I will check that.

22             MR. KAY:  Thank you.  May this document be made an exhibit, Your

23     Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

25             MR. WAESPI:  No objections, pending translation.

Page 13143

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there's any objections against the new

 2     translation, we'd like to hear from you within the next 24 hours.

 3             Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1035.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D1035 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. KAY:

 7        Q.   There are a whole series of -- of documents relating to

 8     Mr. Cermak issuing a command or an authorisation, in relation to

 9     businesses within Knin, some of which you refer to in your report.  And

10     what I propose to do is just to run through the subject matter of the

11     business, and then I can put the collective into a bar table document

12     because they all follow the same theme, and it will save a considerable

13     amount of Court time.

14             First of all, the Privredna Banka - and apologies again - which

15     Mr. Cermak made a command in relation to its opening up banking

16     operations.  Is that one you're aware of, Mr. Theunens?

17        A.   If it is the one --

18        Q.   It's 65 ter 856.  I think it is one of your footnotes.

19        A.   Yes, indeed.  I was just checking we were talking about the same

20     document, the one dated 7 August, and that is indeed footnote 993 on

21     English page 247 of part 2 of the report.

22        Q.   Yes.  Also, a company Agroprerada in Knin, which had obligations

23     concerning Solana Co-op Stock Company, and that was another authorisation

24     made by Mr. Cermak.  It's a flour company, a bread company.  Were you

25     aware of that?

Page 13144

 1        A.   I don't think I have used that document in my report so -- I have

 2     not done any particular research on the nature of the activities of this

 3     company.

 4        Q.   Oh, it's footnote 997.  It's 65 ter 863.

 5        A.   I apologise.

 6        Q.   I'll just run through a list of names so that this doesn't get

 7     too much of an abstract.

 8             There is Knin-Gips which is 65 ter 862.  There's Jadrantrans, a

 9     company which is a document we have located.  There is an application to

10     open a fruit and vegetable shop, 65 ter 852, to take over a bakery

11     production line, 65 ter 3539.  Hospitality premises or facility, one of

12     our documents.  Another one is a report which would be the best way of

13     handling this from Mr. Rincic.  If we could call up 2D07-0132.  The other

14     documents I have referred to can be bar tabled.

15             This doesn't have a date, but it contains a report on the

16     following large economic objects in the area of Knin municipality, and

17     then we see some of the names of which I have mentioned premises, such as

18     Agroprerada, Knin-Gips, Jadrantrans in this document sent to

19     General Cermak, being a report on the condition of those premises.

20             Page 2 we see more of that information.  It refers to stores

21     being -- some stores being devastated, and then it gives a report of some

22     places, the revival of the following has started, commence to date, and

23     we see Knin-Gips, Jadrantrans there, Agroprerada, and the bank, so it is

24     after some of those orders had been issued.

25             Again, all these are matters concerned with the revival of the

Page 13145

 1     economic resources of Knin.  Isn't that right?

 2        A.   That is correct.  And I would just add also 65 ter 857 because it

 3     addresses an instruction by General Cermak to open an INA gas station in

 4     Knin, where he states in the document that it's -- "because of the

 5     situation in the garrison town of Knin, and in order for both the units

 6     and the civilian population of garrison town Knin, to be supplied with

 7     fuel as well as possible."

 8             And that's 65 ter -- excuse me, that is footnote number 994, on

 9     English page 248 in my report.

10        Q.   Yes.  And that was one I was going to put into our bar table.  It

11     comes after this document we've looked at in my sequence.

12             MR. KAY:  If we go to 65 ter 2464.  And while that is coming up,

13     may the last document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

14             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.  The only issue, obviously, as we

15     heard, there is no date, and it's addressed to Mr. Cermak while he was

16     there, so I guess it's August, September, October, the date,

17     approximately.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That is an assumption which -- is there any -- is

19     there any need to agree on it?  It seems to me that it mainly covers a

20     type of activities that were reported to Mr. Cermak, and --

21             MR. KAY:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And it -- unless there's evidence of the -- to the

23     contrary, I would expect such a report to address to him when he is still

24     there.  But if it's any -- if it's of any significance, I invite the

25     parties to agree on it.  If not, the Chamber might work on the basis as I

Page 13146

 1     just expressed.

 2             MR. KAY:  Yes.  No issue hangs on it for me, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1036.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D1036 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Mr. Kay, if would you allow me, because otherwise we move away

 7     from a matter which the documents disappear from our screen.

 8             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take you back for one second, Mr. Theunens, to

10     the -- to the military farms or the military estates.

11             In your report you say:

12             "And orders to take control over all military farms in the area

13     of the Knin garrison."

14             Now looking at that document, another description is given.  It

15     says it approval, and it refers in the beginning of the document to an

16     order given by someone else.  Is that of any significance?  I'm asking

17     you this because many of the other documents deal with, apparently with

18     companies or -- that are perhaps private, whereas you just confirmed on a

19     question by Mr. Kay that these military estates were owned by or belonged

20     to the army.  I'm just wondering how to understand that you used the word

21     "order" in your report, whereas the document itself says "approval."

22             What was there to be approved?

23             THE WITNESS:  Could -- could we see the document again, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it is your footnote 990, which ...

25             MR. KAY:  Exhibit D01035.

Page 13147

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

 3             THE WITNESS:  It is a document where this is an translation

 4     issue.  Maybe that has something to do with it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it initially about the estate?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.

 7             The translation I used have the ERN 0306-2720-0306-2720.

 8     It's ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But is that an uploaded translation?  If not, we

10     might have difficulties in getting it on our screen, because ...

11             THE WITNESS:  I just read the ERN out for the -- to clarify what

12     is used --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I see here it is not approval but authorisation.

14     Again, not an order.

15             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And an order is mentioned in the first lines:

17             "Pursuant an order of the minister of defence."

18             THE WITNESS:  It is correct, Your Honours, as you noted that

19     General Cermak issues an authorisation, but when I look then at the

20     contents of the authorisation, take control, take care, provide, use,

21     forward, this was again in the context of other documents reviewed from

22     my report and in using my report, for me, the reason to use the

23     expression "order" when I make a reference to this document in my report.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  In my question I think I introduced another -- what

25     might be a relevant fact is that was that was opened by the military, so

Page 13148

 1     to say take care of your own stuff.  Is that an order or is that a ...

 2             THE WITNESS:  In the military well, when you say to somebody,

 3     Take control or take care or even take care of your own stuff, well, the

 4     military's function, when I look at the service regulations, D32, the way

 5     how it -- a commander or a senior person pronounces this, yeah,

 6     instruction, is called an order.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

 9             MR. KAY:

10        Q.   In relation to the companies that we've been mentioning, such as

11     Knin Gips, isn't it right that the premises that were being taken over

12     were premises that they had had obligations with for many years, so they

13     were returning to commercial premises from which they had been deprived

14     of since the RSK took over the territory in 1991?

15        A.   Is it probably the case.  I don't have the document in front of

16     me, but it is it probably --

17        Q.   Let's just have a look at it because -- 65 ter 862.

18             This authorisation dated the 14th of August, 1995, and I

19     mentioned Knin Gips, and it's in Dr. Rincic's report says that it had

20     been part of a particular company for 20 years, and they had sustained

21     obligations and to rapidly establish the production process in the

22     company, this authorisation was given so that they could enter the

23     premises and take over the management.

24             You see the logic of it?

25        A.   Indeed.  I agree with you, and I was just thinking, on English

Page 13149

 1     page 248, I have a similar reference to such an authorisation, which

 2     refers to 65 ter 854, that's footnote 997, where we see that

 3     General Cermak authorises private companies to take over premises of

 4     other companies.

 5        Q.   Well, they -- they were connected with those companies, and this

 6     is part of that statement by the president about order being necessary in

 7     Knin, so that -- you don't have people just moving in and taking other

 8     people's factories.  Call it rough and ready, but they came down, showed

 9     Mr. Cermak that they were part of this commercial operation, and they

10     were getting back what they had lost in the previous five years.

11        A.   Yes.  That makes sense, and it also makes sense that this is

12     regulated by somebody who is in a position to regulate it.

13        Q.   Yes.

14             MR. KAY:  Let's just go to 2D07-127.

15             May the last document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

16             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1037, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D1037 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. KAY:

21        Q.    This is dated the 15th of August.  It's from Jadrantrans Split

22     Croatia, a very well known company, and Jadrantrans Split is the founder

23     of Jadrantrans Knin, and they wrote:

24             "In order to protect the inventory and equipment, we request to

25     enter into possession take over management of Jadrantrans Knin.  We will

Page 13150

 1     later deal with all the procedural actions with the Croatian

 2     privatisation fund.  And that clearly expresses the point; doesn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.  As we have been discussing this afternoon, it is one aspect

 4     of normalisation of life which was among one of the tasks of

 5     General Cermak as I have described in section 3 of part 2 of my report.

 6        Q.   He wasn't just giving away businesses down there in Knin.  This

 7     was people who'd come in and established a connection, and their conduct

 8     was being authorised, again, to prevent disorder.  Isn't that right?

 9        A.   Yes.  This is what this -- this is what these documents indicate.

10        Q.   Yes.

11             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, having dealt with those two in that way,

12     the rest I will bar table and hand to my right.

13             May the last document be made a --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay [Overlapping speakers] ...  as far as the

15     letterhead is concerned and the translation and rather funny characters,

16     I take it that it's to be ignored.

17             MR. KAY:  Yes.  It may be.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. KAY:  Two originals are there.  Might be one of those

20     occasions like we had with the UN.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  At least we can read in the original that it's a

22     Split Hrvatska.

23             MR. KAY:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If someone would be inclined to improve it, I am not

25     stop them.

Page 13151

 1             MR. KAY:  Oh, it's the reading through the computers of

 2     characters from another computer which are, in fact, normal when you look

 3     at my page.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see this on my screen.  I'm glad, Mr. Kay,

 5     that are you able to explain computer technicals to this Chamber.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. KAY:  Thank you.  Can I make that an exhibit, Your Honour.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 9             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1038, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D1038 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. KAY:

14        Q.   There were some temporary allocations of commercial premises, and

15     these concern temporary use of premises for say four weeks or six weeks

16     as a coffee bar and a buffet bar in Libertas Street, previously known as

17     Marsal Tito's Street.  Documents with which I think you're familiar; is

18     that right?

19        A.   There is, yeah, 65 ter 2292 which corresponds with footnote 985

20     on English page 246, part 2 of the report, which I believe deals with the

21     matter you just raised.

22        Q.   Yes.  We can look at 65 ter 2464.  It is probably the same

23     document in the system twice for all I know, Mr. Theunens, but we're

24     talking about the same thing.

25             MR. KAY:  65 ter 2464, please.

Page 13152

 1        Q.   And it was the Ministry of Defence requiring certain premises to

 2     be allocated.

 3             MR. KAY:  If we go to page 2 of this document, it's dated the

 4     24th of August, 1995.

 5        Q.   And it's from Brigadier Vukina who mentions the buffet bar,

 6     provisions, sales, and another buffet bar in another street.

 7             "We'd like to mention that these commercial premises already

 8     being used as organised by the command of the Ministry of Defence

 9     headquarters for the sake of higher quality supplies to and the

10     organisation of life for the citizens in the garrison town ..."

11             And we can see it is signed by Brigadier Vukina who was a

12     commander at the HQ in Zagreb.

13             Presumably, something that happens when this area had been

14     liberated and a way of providing an outlet so that people can buy coffee

15     and provisions to prevent stealing and other criminal activities to get

16     goods.  You see the point?

17        A.   It's possible.

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   I mean, Knin is not an isolated island.  There are shops in the

20     wider area but, of course, one would need a car.  It's likely that --

21     there was a necessity to open shops to sell groceries and to have a

22     coffee and snack bar, whether that is allow to people to buy stuff or

23     prevent them from stealing stuff, I think that is outside of my expertise

24     to draw a conclusion on that.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 13153

 1             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1039, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D1039 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. KAY:  65 ter 3498.

 7        Q.   And this is the follow-up to the previous document.  It's dated

 8     the 27th of September, 1995, from the Knin garrison issued by

 9     General Cermak.  And it goes to the Ministry of Defence, office of staff

10     administration, ordering the return of those business premises previously

11     mentioned, because these coffee bars and the provisions that the -- the

12     grocery shop, you've mentioned in your report, haven't you, as examples

13     of orders being made by General Cermak?

14        A.   Indeed.  And again this is under the section "normalisation of

15     life" which is part of -- can be found under the heading

16     "Civilian/Military Authority."

17             I have this document with a different 65 ter, but, in any event,

18     I believe it's included under footnote 987.

19        Q.   That's right.  It comes in several times in several places this

20     document, so it is difficult for us.

21             If we just go to page 2, we can see what happens.  The Croatian

22     army had no need for the use of the premises and Mr. Cermak ordered they

23     be closed and handed over to the Croatian government committee.

24        A.   By the 1st of October, at the latest.

25        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

Page 13154

 1             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1040, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D1040 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. KAY:  The next document is 65 ter 5522, footnote 998.  And

 7     someone has written:

 8             "The president of the administrative board of the association of

 9     small shareholders Chromos, a paint company in Zagreb on the 15th

10     September," and they've complained that their property was stolen and

11     driven away to a private firm, and it was machines, raw materials, and it

12     went to a particular company in Pozega, and Mr. Cermak was asked to

13     investigate this incident in order to take steps against war profiteers,

14     and we will look at what he does in relation to this.

15             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

16             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  D1041.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. KAY:

21        Q.   The follow-up document is D505, Exhibit D505, please.

22             The English translation has an error in it which was only picked

23     up when we linked the two documents together, the previous exhibit and

24     this document.  We can see it says 19th of August in English, but it is

25     plainly the 19th of September, when we look at the Croatian language

Page 13155

 1     document.  And it's a letter from Mr. Cermak to the police administration

 2     in Knin saying:

 3             "We are attaching a memo from the president of the Executive

 4     Committee of The Association Of Small Shareholders, Chromos in Zagreb ...

 5     sent by mistake to your address."

 6             And it concerns the theft of Croatian assets:

 7             "Since we are not authorised for such and similar problems, we

 8     are, therefore, forwarding the memo to you."

 9             This was not a footnote in your report.  Had you seen this

10     document?

11        A.   No, I have not seen this document.

12        Q.   And in relation to Mr. Cermak's conduct on this matter, it is

13     entirely appropriate he gets information of a specific crime that is sent

14     to him, and he refers it to the civilian police.

15        A.   Yes.  That is what the document states.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. KAY:  This is it already an exhibit, Your Honour.  Thank you.

18             Your Honour, the other documents can be bar tabled so that we do

19     not spend unnecessary time on -- on that.

20        Q.   In your report, you refer to Mr. Cermak having links with foreign

21     delegations.  He is a contact with international representatives, and he

22     is also the point of contact for visits by international delegations;

23     page 258.

24             MR. KAY:  If we could look at the first of a number of documents

25     which I will bar table.  65 ter 2317.

Page 13156

 1             THE WITNESS:  Just to clarify, the section actually starts on

 2     English page 254.

 3             MR. KAY:  My apologies.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Just -- yeah.

 5             MR. KAY:

 6        Q.   This is a letter from the Deputy Commander for political

 7     activity, Captain Tomasovic, of the Split Military District.  He writes

 8     to the vice consulate of Italy, Mr. Meucci, and it concerns his letter of

 9     10th of August, a visit authorised by the president and to visit the

10     integrated areas of the state, and he's advised upon his arrival to Knin

11     to turn to General Cermak or Colonel Zelic for further coordination in

12     this area.

13             And is this one of many such letters and obligations that were

14     sent to Mr. Cermak.  Isn't that right?

15        A.   Yes.  And this specific aspect is discussed on English page 258.

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Just a small correction to the translation.  It should be deputy

18     assistant commander for political activity.  Tomasovic is the deputy to

19     the assistant commander for political activity.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

22             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1042, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D1042 is admitted into evidence.

Page 13157

 1             MR. KAY:

 2        Q.   We have seen reference in the reports from the political

 3     department and elsewhere about Mr. Cermak being overburdened about

 4     conversations between Dr. Radic and the president about him having a lot

 5     to do.  Those are, in fact, correct assessments of the nature of the work

 6     and tasks of this man, Mr. Theunens.  Do you agree?

 7        A.   I have not seen a document where General Cermak complains about

 8     being overburdened with work.  And I would expect someone in his

 9     position, if, indeed, he gets too many of these visits that are actually

10     drawing his attention away from his core tasks, that he would speak to

11     his superiors to say, Look, I don't have time for all these visits.  I

12     have to focus on my tasks.  I haven't seen such documents.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Maybe we will be seeing some of those documents.

14             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I will bar table the rest of the letters

15     under this heading, because they have no need for further analysis, but

16     they go to the generality of the issue I have just put to the witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We will wait and see your list, Mr. Kay.

18             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If you prepare that list before you finish the

20     cross-examination, then at least we will know if Mr. Waespi objects to

21     any of them, which, of course, will give you an opportunity to introduce

22     them in any other way.

23             MR. KAY:  Thank you that is why Mr. Mak is doing as we go along

24     which -- it was his idea.  Thank you.

25             MR. WAESPI:  Just for the record, Mr. President, we have no

Page 13158

 1     objections to D1035 the translation issue.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That is then on the record, and the admission into

 3     evidence is -- which was already a final one, does not need to be

 4     followed by the replacement of the translation.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Let us now turn to a different subject, which concerns

 8     accommodation which you write about in your report; page 247, page 252,

 9     page 246, 260, 311, and page 345.

10             Some of those are repetitious passages, I know, Mr. Theunens, but

11     I'm just giving all the ones that I've got here, because the same matter

12     appears in different parts of your report, obviously.

13             Let's look, first of all, to 2D04-0262.

14             This document comes from the service for protection of the

15     constitutional order in Split, dated the 5th of September, 1995, from the

16     chief, Mr. Gabricevic, who writes to General Cermak at the Knin garrison

17     and makes a request for ceding the use of residential accommodation.

18             Have you seen this document before?

19        A.   I don't believe I have seen this specific document before.  I

20     believe that in my report I refer primarily to requests by the military

21     for accommodation in Knin, i.e., request by military units or

22     organisations to General Cermak.

23        Q.   Let just look at this matter so that this can be seen by the

24     Judges.

25             He receives this letter from the constitutional order.  They have

Page 13159

 1     offices in Knin.  They're in the Knin police administration building.

 2     They want to carry out their jobs and tasks, and they ask for two

 3     three-bedroom apartments and two two-bedroom apartments from the existing

 4     housing fund for the purposes of accommodation of employees, and that's

 5     because they travel from Split.

 6             That's what the letter is.

 7             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  I have no objections.  My version here in -- on my

 9     other screen is kind of different.  On the top left it has the date in

10     Croatian, so -- which confirms the English translation, but I'm just

11     saying that I do have a clearer version of the original than appears to

12     -- oh, here we have it.

13             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D1043.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D1043 is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             The next document is 2D04-0264.  It's dated the 8th of September,

19     1995.  It's a reply to the previous letter from General Cermak to the

20     service for protection of the constitutional order.  And they were told

21     that the request regarding the use of residential accommodation for your

22     employees in Knin had been sent to the committee of the Republic of

23     Croatia for the municipality of Knin, which is the competent, obviously,

24     body for administration in Knin.  And for additional information, please

25     directly contact that committee.

Page 13160

 1        Q.   Is that correct, that there was, indeed, run by the Ministry of

 2     Interior, a body and organisation that was dealing with the allocation of

 3     accommodation to individual requests?

 4        A.   This is correct, at least at the time of this document, which is

 5     the 8th of September, 1995.  I cannot say when this committee was

 6     established in the municipality of Knin.

 7             I have a reference in my report on English page 246 to the 10th

 8     of August where it is General Cermak who takes a decision on the

 9     assignment of empty accommodation for temporary uses and that is for the

10     use by the Defence office, MO, the Defence administration which is in

11     line with what I said earlier, that General Cermak takes decisions when

12     it comes to the allocation of accommodation for military purposes.

13        Q.   That was for temporary use is the point that would need to be

14     made there; is that not right?

15        A.   I mentioned temporary use, so it is clear.

16        Q.   Yes.  Bearing in mind that Knin had developed a problem, hadn't

17     it, with people illegally taking apartments.

18        A.   I -- it is probably the case, but I don't remember seeing

19     specific documents dealing with that issue at that -- at this very stage.

20        Q.   Shall we have a look then?

21             MR. KAY:  Can we look -- can that document be made an exhibit,

22     Your Honour.

23             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number D1044.

Page 13161

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D1044 is admitted into evidence.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Another example of the temporary reassignment of

 3     housing can be found in footnote 995, which is on page 248 of part 2,

 4     referring to 65 ter 3498.

 5             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 6             If we look at Exhibit P514.

 7        Q.   Within Knin, there had been apartments, before 1991, owned by the

 8     Ministry of Interior which were apartments set aside and for the benefit

 9     of employees of the government's Ministry of Interior; isn't that right?

10        A.   Yes, indeed, that is what the document says.

11        Q.   There was also apartments set aside for the Ministry of Defence,

12     so for the armed forces, and they were apartments that the military were

13     entitled to use, part of their estate.

14        A.   Yes, indeed, there was a whole system of state-owned apartments

15     existing --

16        Q.   Exactly.

17        A.   -- in SFRY and continued when Croatia became independent.

18        Q.   Between 1991 and the eventual liberation of Knin on the 5th of

19     August, these apartments had been taken over within the period of the RSK

20     government; isn't that right?

21        A.   For what?  The apartments located in Kinin or the territory held

22     by the RSK is concerned, yes.

23        Q.   The apartments were -- they belonged to the Republic of Croatia,

24     but the RSK, so-called government, had taken them over.

25        A.   Is that a question or ...

Page 13162

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   Because I answered already.  Yes, indeed.

 3        Q.   Sorry, I didn't catch your answer to it.  My apologies.

 4        A.   I mean, I'm not going into whether they belonged to the Republic

 5     of Croatia or whether -- the legal issue of property of SFRY and then

 6     going to Croatia, that's not my area of knowledge, so I'm not going into

 7     a discussion on that.  It is correct that these apartments were owned by

 8     SFRY, were taken over by Croatia, and then when the RSK --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  May I stop you there.  We're finding ourselves in a

10     similar situation.  Mr. Kay seeks to establish, apparently, with your

11     assistance, whether these apartments were in the RSK time used by the RSK

12     for RSK purposes, and, of course, he is referring to Knin, and, of

13     course, he was not digging into the background of ownership but rather

14     the use.  So that at least as I understood was what Mr. Kay was seeking

15     you to confirm or to deny, and the other details seem not to be very

16     relevant at this moment.

17             MR. KAY:  Exactly, Your Honour, thank you.  P514 is under seal.

18     I have just been notified.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it should not be shown to the public.  And we

20     have to verify whether it was.

21             MR. KAY:  Having seen page 2 as I have, it was.  It is under

22     seal.  I can tell from page 2.  If we could have a redaction.  Around --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the important thing is whether it was shown

24     to the public.  Mr. Registrar confirms to me that it was not shown to the

25     public.

Page 13163

 1             MR. KAY:  Okay.  Very good.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. KAY:

 4        Q.   And from your analysis of the documents, would it be right to say

 5     that those former state-owned apartments were apartments that people

 6     illegally occupied and took over when Knin was liberated?

 7        A.   I have not analysed this topic in the framework of my report.  I

 8     know from outside my work at ICTY that this was a delicate issue because

 9     some of these apartments were -- I mean, not illegally but legally

10     occupied by people already prior to the establishment of the RSK.  They

11     stayed there during the existence of the RSK, and, of course, some of

12     them may have left after the RSK ceased or the so-called RSK ceased to

13     exist, so I cannot answer your question.  There were certainly apartments

14     that were illegally occupied, but whether that concerns all the

15     apartments, I don't think so.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, the court will be able to see the subject

17     matter of Exhibit P514, I believe, on the screens.  It is not going to

18     the public; is that right?  Yes.  But Your Honours can see it.  Yes.

19             And if we just turn to page 2 of the document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any confusion about the question and the

21     answer?

22             You asked about apartments being occupied after the -- after Knin

23     was liberated, and I understand from your position that it was after the

24     5th of August 1995.  In the answer, however, Mr. Theunens refers to what

25     happened after the establishment of the RSK.  So he apparently answers

Page 13164

 1     the questions in terms of having occupied apartments legally and perhaps

 2     already continuing in existing situation in 1991.

 3             Is there any way that, Mr. Kay, you are referring to a change in

 4     circumstances in occupying apartments in 1995, where the witness may have

 5     referred to what had happened in 1991?

 6             MR. KAY:  Yes, what I'm putting to the witness, Your Honour, is

 7     that the Republic of Croatia had a number -- had the ownership right to

 8     properties that were owned by government institutions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you are looking at the occupation of

10     apartments on from the 5th of August, 1995.

11             MR. KAY:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Where I get the impression from the answer that

13     Mr. Theunens was focussing rather on how apartments were occupied after

14     the RSK was established.  That is on from 1991.  And I want to clarify

15     whether he misunderstood your question, or whether he -- I just noticed

16     that there seems to be some discrepancy.

17             THE WITNESS:  Indeed, Your Honours.  The question disappeared

18     now.  I understood the question being in a very general nature,

19     addressing all the apartments.  If the question is that after the 5th of

20     August some or state-owned -- a number of state-owned apartments were

21     illegally taken over by people, then the answer is yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes that was the question.  And apparently you

23     referred to a different moment in time in your answer.

24             THE WITNESS:  Indeed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

Page 13165

 1             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour, just looking at the time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will have a break first.

 3             We have a break of -- until five minutes to 6.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.

 7             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   The next document, as we go further into this matter, is

 9     2D07-0334.

10             This is a document dated the 14th of September, 1995, from the

11     Kotar-Knin police administration, from the head of police, to the

12     Ministry of Defence, concerning housing issues, the matter we've been

13     talking about, Mr. Theunens.

14             First of all, do you recognise this document?

15        A.   Again, I'm not sure of this specific document, but I have seen

16     similar documents and -- I think of P514 which is referred to on page 252

17     in my report.

18        Q.   Shall we look at this document.  It recites that on the 26th of

19     August, the ministry, that's the MUP, gave an apartment at a particular

20     address to a police officer, and that apartment is in the possession of

21     the Ministry of Interior, so it's one of their stock of housing that I've

22     been talking to you about, and it had been checked by the fund for

23     housing and communal affairs.

24             Can you tell us what the fund for housing and communal affairs

25     was?

Page 13166

 1        A.   I have no specific knowledge of this fund.  I assume it's a -- a

 2     civilian authority, organisation dealing with state-owned housing, among

 3     other things.

 4        Q.   Do you know when it was established for Knin?

 5        A.   No, I don't know.

 6        Q.   A conflict emerged between the Croatian army officer, with a name

 7     given, and the police officer, and the army man claims he entered first,

 8     and there have been arguments about it, and he won't leave.  And the

 9     chief of police is hoping that a solution will be found for the Croatian

10     army member, obviously so that the police can get their housing back as

11     part of their -- their stock.

12             In relation to the regulation and distribution of these

13     properties, do you know what the system was that was established by the

14     Croatian government?

15        A.   I'm not aware of the system that was established by the Croatian

16     government for the regulation and distribution of state-owned properties.

17     From this document, it appears that the -- the fund for housing and

18     communal affairs plays a role in this matter.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. KAY:  May this document be an exhibit, Your Honour.

21             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1045, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 13167

 1             MR. KAY:  2D07-034, thia is a document -- 0340, sorry.  This is a

 2     document dated the 3rd of November, 1995.  It is a letter from

 3     General Cermak to the government commission for the Knin county housing

 4     commission.  It's a request for allocation of apartments, and it says:

 5     "According to the demonstrated needs for the accommodation of the Knin

 6     garrison officers, we hereby request your cooperation in allowing us the

 7     use of seven apartments from your housing found on different locations in

 8     the town of Knin.

 9             "Hoping you will meet our request, we thank you in advance."

10        Q.   Firstly, have you seen this document before?

11        A.   I have no recollection of seeing this document before.

12        Q.   The government commission for Knin county housing commission,

13     what do you know about that?

14        A.   I have no specific knowledge of this civilian body.

15        Q.   You don't know when it was established or ...

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

19             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1046, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

24        Q.   We're now going to look at military accommodation, Mr. Theunens.

25     And the first document I would like us to see is 2D07-0318.

Page 13168

 1             It's a document from the Ministry of Defence in Zagreb, and we

 2     can see there housing commission that is mentioned in the heading.  It's

 3     dated the 9th of August, 1995, and it's pursuant to the Article 5 of the

 4     Law on Temporary usage of apartments and with the consent of the deputy

 5     minister.

 6             First of all, do you recognise this document?

 7        A.   No, I don't recognise this document.

 8        Q.   Do you know what the Law on Temporary Usage Of Apartments was

 9     that he refers to?

10        A.   No.  No, I don't know what the Law on Temporary Usage Of

11     Apartments is.

12        Q.   We see that there is a decision, and it refers to the fact

13     that in the liberated area of the Republic of Croatia, an inspection

14     was to be carried out of all empty, vacant, or abandoned apartments

15     in the property of the Republic of Croatia, which was entrusted

16     with the Ministry of Defence to manage it.  Apart from inspecting,

17     there should be an inventory and other -- of furniture and other

18     movables found when inspecting ... a sealing of the apartment

19     to secure it from illegal entry, and the lists of apartments

20     in garrisons is enclosed to this decision, and it is its constituent

21     part.

22             And in paragraph 2:

23             "For listing the apartments and carrying out the inspections in

24     the inventory, the following people were made responsible."

25             If we look at Knin, we see there are 328 apartments and one

Page 13169

 1     garage, and a man named Veljko Banek is mentioned.  Do you know who he

 2     is?

 3        A.   I don't remember seeing that name before.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If we turn to page 2.

 5             "Listing apartments shall be carried out with another person from

 6     the housing subcommission ... in cooperation with the department for

 7     construction, military and civil police."

 8             That particular subcommission, is that something of which you are

 9     aware?

10        A.   No, I'm not aware of that subcommission.

11        Q.   And when listing apartments, pay attention to possible mining of

12     the apartment and inspections to be reported in eight days time.

13             And we can see at the bottom:  Delivered to the various people,

14     including responsible persons from the head of the commission, Mr. Adzic,

15     and then there's handwriting on it, concerning the military police, and

16     we saw on the first page, it had gone to the 72nd Battalion.

17             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, please.

18             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1047.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

23        Q.   The next document that follows on from this is 65 ter 569.  And

24     it's dated the 11th of August, and it's from the Knin garrison, signed by

25     General Cermak.  And it's headed:  Pursuant to the need of taking

Page 13170

 1     over ... apartments owned by the Ministry of Defence ... and with the aim

 2     to prevent the appearance of contagious diseases ...

 3             And an order is issued about pyrotechnical inspection of the

 4     apartments as listed by the building administration, cleaning up of the

 5     apartments, elimination of rodents, warnings to be given.  We see the

 6     names of the people.

 7             Page 2, a report was to be submitted by Major Jonjic, and we see

 8     building administration, Sector Zadar, et cetera, all on this particular

 9     document.

10             First of all, were you aware of a problem in Knin that had

11     developed at this time concerning the health and safety within the

12     apartments that had been left vacant and empty that summer?

13        A.   Indeed, I mean, I believe have included this document in my

14     report.  Yes, it is footnote 992 on English page 247.  And, yes, I think

15     everybody can imagine that people when leave house without planning to

16     leave it, that food, other -- and other stuff may remain in the house.

17     There may have been power cuts, and the consequences of that, yeah, are

18     well known.  So the issue of rodents is not unusual in that context, I

19     would say.

20        Q.   This order is of Ministry of Defence properties, and we have seen

21     the previous decision by the head of the housing commission, Mr. Adzic,

22     in the previous document, is this part of the duties of the garrison

23     commander, dealing with a matter such as this?

24        A.   I would say yes.  Referring to Article 54 of the service

25     regulations of 1992 which are known as D32, where it is stated under B

Page 13171

 1     that the garrison commander -- or the responsibility of the garrison

 2     commander include to define the billeting of units and institutions in

 3     the garrison and to determine the ordinates of garrison service.

 4             I don't see any more specific reference to the issue of keeping

 5     military housing in the garrison in an appropriate condition, but in my

 6     view, it's in line with the regulations.

 7        Q.   In fact, this is not billeting, is it, in the accepted military

 8     sense of the of the word.  These are family apartments?

 9        A.   That is correct.  But these are military apartments.

10        Q.   If you go to Article 47 of those rules, you will see there

11     accommodation.  Lodging and order, yes.

12               Articles 47 and up to 49 were, in fact, outside the garrison

13     regulations, are they not?

14        A.   We Article 47 are you referring to?

15        Q.   Within the same ones that you were at D32.

16        A.   I don't have the regulation in front of me, so I cannot answer

17     the question.

18        Q.   We will just leave it as a reference like that.  Their Honours

19     can look at it if they need to.

20             MR. KAY:  Can this document be made an exhibit, please, Your

21     Honour.

22             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1048.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

Page 13172

 1             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 2             The next document is 65 ter 5518.

 3             This is a document dated the 16th of August, 1995.  Following on

 4     from the previous order, it's an order from General Cermak, and it's an

 5     order to create conditions for unobstructed work of the housing

 6     subcommission of the Knin garrison when patrolling and securing military

 7     flats in Knin.  "I hereby issue the following," and it's the inspection

 8     of military flats for explosives, using carpenters to fix frames and

 9     doors, to fit locks.  Civilian protection to take rubbish out of flats,

10     carry out pest control, and issuing cylinder locks.  A follow-up order on

11     this matter.  In line with the -- excuse me, I'm about to sneeze.  In

12     line with the duties of the garrison commander or not?

13        A.   In my view, it is.

14             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

15             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1049.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. KAY:  Exhibit P1145, please.

20        Q.   This is a document dated -- Exhibit P1145, that's not what I had

21     in mind.

22             MR. KAY:  65 ter 2389, which is Exhibit D1032.  Exhibit D1032, my

23     apologies there, there is an error.

24        Q.   This is a document dated the 17th of August from Split Military

25     District Command to the Knin garrison.  And it is based on the

Page 13173

 1     demobilization of buildings.  We've already looked at this already.  I'm

 2     not sure that we need to look at this any further, as I have questioned

 3     you about that.  My apologies.

 4             MR. KAY:  Can we have 2D07-0242.  It's dated 25th of August, a

 5     request from General Cermak to the Ministry of Defence housing commission

 6     in Zagreb and a request for allocation of apartments for Knin garrison

 7     command.

 8        Q.   Do you recognise this document?

 9        A.   I -- I don't think I have seen it before.

10        Q.   It's a request to the government Ministry of Defence housing

11     commission to issue a temporary decision on the allocation of apartments

12     in a street for the needs of the Knin garrison.  The 14 apartments are to

13     be allocated to the command.  "The list of officers will be submitted to

14     you at a later date."

15             Do you know whether this is the correct or incorrect procedure

16     that General Cermak was following, in order to secure housing for members

17     of the garrison command?

18        A.   I'm not able to answer the question.  On one hand, one would say,

19     Well, it has to go via the commander of the Split Military District.

20     Now, on the other hand, this is a matter that only concerns the Knin

21     garrison, and it could well be or may well be that can be directly dealt

22     with between a garrison and the housing commission.

23        Q.   Well, he is not allocating property himself to people who work

24     for the garrison.  We can tell that from the document.  Would you agree?

25        A.   Well, he requests -- I mean he requests in the sense -- he asks

Page 13174

 1     the housing commission to allocate, to make available a number of

 2     apartments for the needs of the Knin garrison.  That is what the document

 3     says.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Let's just look at it again logically.

 5             He is not allocating through his own authority 14 apartments to

 6     his unit himself, is he?

 7        A.   Indeed.  In this document he is not doing that.

 8        Q.   That's the first point that could be said.

 9             Second point is this:  That there is a Ministry of Defence

10     housing commission operating in Zagreb that appears to be the place to

11     write to; isn't that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

15             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1050.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. KAY:  Can we go to 65 ter 3195, please.

20        Q.   This is footnote 1047 -- not 1047.

21        A.   1013.

22        Q.   1013, thank you.

23        A.   On page 252.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             From the housing commission housing sector dated the 6th

Page 13175

 1     September, a letter to General Cermak about the unlawful occupation of

 2     apartments owned by the defence ministry.  And it says, Please have the

 3     commander of units located in the Knin garrison - says assembly point

 4     here - issue commands banning unlawful entry into apartments belonging to

 5     the Defence Ministry of the Republic of Croatia.  Our requests submitted

 6     hitherto to the political activities service to relay the housing

 7     requirements of all their units have not received serious attention with

 8     the exception of the Knin garrison, political activities service.  We

 9     wish to note that the majority of cases in which apartments have been

10     occupied unlawfully is related to senior Croatian army officers from the

11     Zadar military district and other units.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, you are reading not exactly what appears on

13     our screen, may I draw your attention to the -- with the exception of I

14     have on my screen "the Knin assembly point," but I think you read

15     something different there.  Are there various versions, or ...

16             MR. KAY:  Assembly point, Your Honours, means garrison.  And I

17     know Mr. Theunens knows that as well.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now for the Chamber to --

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. KAY:

21        Q.   That's right, Mr. Theunens, isn't it?  You knew when I switched

22     into that mode that it was something correct?

23        A.   Yes I know.  I mean it is an incorrect translation, or probably a

24     literal translation, but literal translations don't always correspond

25     with military terminology.

Page 13176

 1        Q.   Apologies, Your Honour.  I thought Your Honour knew that, that's

 2     why I did it.

 3             If we move on:

 4             "We propose that you urgently submit lists of housing

 5     requirements for Croatian army members, providing their names, IDs, so

 6     that we can propose further measures relating to housing."

 7             Go to page two:

 8             "Kindly take the necessary steps by the 10th of September.

 9     Otherwise, we shall be forced to open up the aforementioned apartments

10     and then seal them off."

11             And then is signed by Veljko Banek, who we saw in the very first

12     order.  Remember on the 9th of August, the man allocated to Knin with its

13     380 apartments and one garage in the first order that I showed you on

14     this section?

15        A.   I wrote down Baner with an R at the end, but that may be an error

16     on my side.

17             I think it is important to know that this document shows that

18     there is also a housing subcommission within the Knin garrison, so this

19     is a different commission than the civilian commission that exists, for

20     example, at municipal level.

21             Again, I have not analysed these housing commissions as such, but

22     from the heading of the document, left top corner as well as from the

23     formulation used by the author, one can conclude that, indeed, there is

24     such a housing commission dealing with military housing within the Knin

25     garrison command.

Page 13177

 1        Q.   And this shows that, in fact, the power relating to the

 2     allocation of housing through the housing commission, housing sector, is

 3     through Mr. Banek's commission.

 4        A.   At least at the date of that document, and I believe it is 6th of

 5     September?

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   Indeed.  At least at that date, that is correct.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

10             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1051.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. KAY:  And just to move on with that point, 2D07-0445.

15             This is a document dated the 15th of September, 1995, from the

16     security an information service at Knin garrison.  Remember they were

17     referred to by Mr. Banek -- or he referred to the political activities

18     section; my apologies.

19        Q.   This is a request to that Knin housing subcommission, care of the

20     chief, and it says:

21             "In regard to the housing needs of the security information

22     service, we request from the aforesaid Croatian government subcommission

23     in Knin to allocate 17 flats in total from the Ministry of Defence

24     listing fund, and, if possible, the flats need to be at different

25     locations in Knin."

Page 13178

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2             MR. KAY:  Thank you.  And it is signed there by the assistant

 3     commander.  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 4             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1052.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. KAY:  2D07-0338.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  Just one word of clarification, I don't know whether

10     Mr. Theunens can answer that, the assistant commander to what, in

11     relation to this document?  I see it is blackened out of the previous

12     document.

13             MR. KAY:  I think it is SIS, I should imagine, security and

14     information service.

15             THE WITNESS:  Within the Knin garrison command.  So there is an

16     SIS department or office within the Knin garrison command.

17             MR. KAY:  Yes, no issue upon that.  Thank you.

18        Q.   This document, 20th of September, 1995, again from the Knin

19     garrison.  This time it is signed by General Cermak to the housing

20     commission.  List of priorities.

21             "And in order to provide accommodation for Knin garrison

22     officers, we hereby submit to you the list of their names for the purpose

23     of issuing temporary decisions."

24             And there we see the list of names which again seems to establish

25     that this is the route for the Ministry of Defence property at this time.

Page 13179

 1     Do you agree?

 2        A.   Indeed at 20th of September 1995.

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  D1053.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. KAY:  And if we go to that document you referred to as the

10     10th of August, 1995, the document you cite in your report, I've got it

11     as 65 ter 2291.  That's right.

12        Q.   And footnote -- I wrote down the footnote when you cited it,

13     Mr. Theunens, but have I lost it now.  When you see the document, you

14     will recollect this is the one you referred to, I believe when we first

15     started discussing the housing issue, that you cite in your report.

16        A.   Mm-hm.

17        Q.   "Assign a number of empty accommodation units for temporary

18     use ..."

19             So this is the document dated the 10th August 1995, decision by

20     General Cermak on that date.  And in order to organise a large number of

21     personnel of the headquarters administration in the Ministry of Defence

22     of the Croatian army in the area of Knin garrison HQ, the decision is

23     issued.  It's footnote 985.

24        A.   Thank you.

25        Q.   "Assign a number of empty accommodation units for temporary use

Page 13180

 1     as needed to the staff of the headquarters administration of the Ministry

 2     of Defence so that they can carry out their tasks.

 3             "Brigadier Vukina of the headquarters administration is in charge

 4     of assigning and organizing the accommodation and issuing provisional

 5     decisions," and he is to send an accurate record of the occupied premises

 6     including details on the users to the commander of the Knin garrison.

 7             Is this the document you were referring to concerning

 8     Mr. Cermak's allocation of property?

 9        A.   Yes.  It is one of the examples included in my report.  And this

10     is on page 246, this particular document.

11        Q.   Would you appreciate that in entering Knin in the circumstances

12     that they did and with a large number of military personnel needing to be

13     administered through the headquarters administration, that a temporary

14     use of accommodation units was a practical decision being taken by the

15     garrison commander at the time to try and enable order in the town of

16     Knin?

17        A.   This document states that the aim is -- is to in order to

18     organise a large number of personnel of the headquarters.  Of course,

19     that could be considered a component of what is called order or law and

20     order.  And it is correct that the person who has the authority to do so

21     is General Cermak, at least at that moment in time.

22        Q.   And from where did he get his authority?

23        A.   I have not -- I have seen the order by the president to appoint

24     him, but I'm not aware having seen a job description for General Cermak

25     that covers the duties he carried out while he held the position of

Page 13181

 1     garrison commander in Knin.

 2        Q.   What we have seen are statements by him, as well as the president

 3     as to the nature of tasks, and we've looked at those now through the

 4     course of your evidence; isn't that right?

 5        A.   I believe so.  And there's also other documents included in my

 6     report.  But we looked at a number of aspects.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.  That's that matter.

 8             MR. KAY:  May this document be an exhibit, please, Your Honour.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D1045.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that finishing this section, and I would

14     be embarking on a new topic.  The witness may have been inflicted long

15     enough with me.  I wonder if would be an appropriate just to terminate 15

16     minutes earlier than usual.  It's up to him.  But I would be starting a

17     new subject.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, if you think that you would need the

19     next 17 minutes to recover, please tell us.  If you think you could

20     continue, tell us as well.

21             THE WITNESS:  Maybe this is not an answer to the question, Your

22     Honours, but I would need more time to recover.  It's not up to me to

23     decide.  I can -- I believe at this stage I can manage till the regular

24     ending of court.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you think you could focus and concentrate

Page 13182

 1     sufficiently to continue for another 15 minutes.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I believe I can, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Kay, please proceed.

 4             MR. KAY:  I will take a short subject and deal with it that way,

 5     rather than embarking on a slightly longer one.  And what I'm going deal

 6     with is something know as the Podinarje 9, the ASRK soldiers.  And you

 7     refer in your report at page 242, and this slightly out of sequence from

 8     the topics that we have been handling which concern using Knin -- not

 9     using Knin, working in Knin.  It concerns at page 242 paragraph (J) in

10     your report, that you refer to at least one occasion SJP handover POW,

11     prisoners of war, they take during clearing operations to General Cermak.

12             I'm just interested why you that included as a subject within

13     your report.

14        A.   I include it as a subject because, in my view, it contributed to

15     establishing the role General Cermak played when he was the commander of

16     the Knin garrison.

17        Q.   And with that, I don't disagree with you, because the story of

18     the Podinarje 9 begins with them being a group of individuals from the

19     ARSK forces who were still in the Knin region near Unista on the mount

20     Dinara, and they had not surrendered to the Croatian army forces, nor had

21     they withdrawn into Bosnia, but they were still in the region.  And they

22     had made contact with a man called Alun Roberts who was the press officer

23     for the UN in Knin, and he was with a number of other UN people who had

24     made contact with them; is that right?  Did you know that?

25        A.   The entry in the executive -- in the summary which you cited is

Page 13183

 1     based on what I put on English page 292, footnote 1224, and I don't

 2     remember exactly whether the information you just provided now is

 3     included in the documents that I used in order to establish or provide

 4     the information that alleged that nine former members of "paramilitary

 5     units of the so-called RSK" were arrested and brought to the Knin

 6     garrison command and handed over to General Cermak.

 7             It may well be that the information is included, but I don't

 8     recall at this stage.

 9        Q.   Did you know that there had been an agreement between UNCRO and

10     the local Croatian military by the way that any ARSK forces found in the

11     region could be surrendered so as not to get them involved in conflict

12     with the local police or special police or even military themselves?  Did

13     you know of that agreement that had been devised between UNCRO?

14        A.   No, I am not aware of such an agreement.

15        Q.   Right.  Were you aware that it was the three UNCRO military

16     observers with Mr. Roberts who came across this group known as the

17     Podinarje 9 while undertaking their observing missions in that region of

18     Mount Dinara?

19        A.   No.  And maybe we're talking about a different group, because I'm

20     talking about a group that is, according to a report, by the special

21     police handed over to General Cermak.

22        Q.   It's the same group.

23        A.   Okay.

24        Q.   It's the same group.

25        A.   Mm-hm.

Page 13184

 1        Q.   The special police -- the Court has heard evidence about this,

 2     Mr. Theunens.  The special police came and found the UN observers and

 3     Mr. Roberts with this group in the village, and they left the group with

 4     Mr. Roberts and the UN observers and withdrew and came back the next day.

 5             Were you aware of that?

 6        A.   I was not.

 7        Q.   Were you aware that it was agreement, a brokered agreement, that

 8     those nine ARSK soldiers would be taken to Mr. Cermak by the UNCRO

 9     observers and Mr. Roberts, and then from him they would be dealt with

10     within the Croatian system as any POWs would be?

11        A.   No, I'm not aware of such agreement, and I will check the 65 ter

12     numbers I used --

13        Q.   Yeah.

14        A.   -- to see whether they make any reference to such an agreement.

15        Q.   And that -- that is why General Cermak became involved in this

16     matter, and it is not a case of the special police working under his

17     command or supervision or authority but, in fact, again, it was the

18     matter of UNCRO linking themselves to General Cermak.

19        A.   Probably.  And I just want it clarify that my report does not

20     suggest that this handover by the SJP implies any authority of

21     General Cermak over the SJP.

22        Q.   That's why I'm looking at it just in case anyone comes to the

23     wrong conclusion.  You understand me.  I have to guard against that.

24             MR. KAY:  And let us look to 65 ter 2670.

25        Q.   This doesn't refer to the Podinarje 9, all right, but it refers

Page 13185

 1     to a single soldier who was taken custody, and you'll see that it's dated

 2     5th of September 1995.

 3             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, this was one of the letters in the bundle

 4     that we had from General Cermak to General Forand and was one that I put

 5     in that collective to him, so that would have been a bar tabled one that

 6     is still out there, so to speak.

 7        Q.   And it reads:

 8             "I'm extraordinarily pleased that our meeting of 29th of

 9     August concerning the voluntary surrender of former members of the Serb

10     army has borne fruit.  We are ready to take Mr. Mladen Matic into the

11     custody of Croatian authorities in the presence of UN and other

12     international organisations, as was suggested in your letter."

13             And with a military salute, General Cermak signs off.  We have no

14     need to look at page 2.

15             So did you appreciate that there was this background to this

16     issue concerning the surrender of ARSK soldiers who came to UNCRO and

17     then they linked to General Cermak?

18        A.   I mentioned before that I -- I would like to -- I mean, in my

19     time, check 65 ter 1390 and 65 ter 307.  Thank you.  Just to -- in order

20     to familiarize myself before expressing any views as to whether the

21     document we see now is linked to the group of nine you mention.

22        Q.   And if we go to -- I'll just go to a couple of documents, 65 ter

23     3076, 29th of August, 1995.  It's from Humo.  I don't know who Humo is;

24     it is one that has passed me by in the case so far as a title.  Humo, to

25     RC Knin.

Page 13186

 1        A.   I would say humanitarian officer in ECMM because RC stands for

 2     Regional Centre, but again, without seeing the document, just from my

 3     background.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Humanitarian monitoring observer, maybe.  I don't know.

 5     Whatever it is, we can see against the second point in a meeting with


 7             "The issue of RSK soldiers wishing to surrender was discussed

 8     some coordination between IO patrols and CR anti-terrorist groups must be

 9     organised.  Ideally a UN or ECMM team would monitor the surrender, and

10     info would be directly passed to ICRC for immediate follow-up."

11             And there's the comment:

12             "This was tested this afternoon when nine RSK soldiers

13     surrendered to the HV in the Podinarje valley under UN observation.  As

14     the lifeline for hiding RSK soldiers dwindles, increasing numbers can be

15     expected to surrender."

16             Presumably not a document you have been familiar with before.

17        A.   Not in the framework of the preparation of my report.

18        Q.   No.

19        A.   But the date of 29th is coherent with what -- with what is stated

20     in 65 ter 1390 and 307, because they refer to the 28th, 29th, so, yes, I

21     agree with what you put earlier then in relation to the --

22        Q.   Yes?

23        A.   The connection between the handover of these prisoners of war, on

24     one hand, and the agreement with UNCRO.

25        Q.   Yes.  The Court has seen other documents, Exhibit P131 as well on

Page 13187

 1     this matter, and P37 -- Exhibit P378, Exhibit P48, and that's all I need

 2     to say about it.  Sorry, that was slightly disorganised.  I knew we were

 3     talking about the same thing, Mr. Theunens, but I picked a quick subject

 4     to get to us 7.00.

 5             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that would be a convenient moment.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Where we are now.

 7             MR. KAY:  May the last document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  D1055, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

12             Mr. Theunens, perhaps I should have asked Mr. Kay as well if he

13     could hold on another 15 minutes, but at least you managed.

14             I to understand that it's quite an exercise you go through at

15     this moment.  That may be to some extent true for all of us.

16             We'd like nevertheless to see you back tomorrow.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Not tomorrow afternoon.  We adjourn, and we'd like

19     to see you back tomorrow morning, 5th of December, 9.00 in this same

20     courtroom, I.

21                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of

23                           December, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.