1 Friday, 23 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
10 IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor vs. Ante Gotovina, et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Madam Registrar.
12 Mr. Hansen, I would like to remind you that you are still bound
13 by the solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of your
15 Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to continue? I would like to advise
16 the parties that the Chamber has in mind that we'll be able to conclude
17 the testimony of this witness today and there will be some time left to
18 make submissions on sedating in relation to 98 bis.
19 We have a problem with the transcript.
20 [Technical difficulty]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that after re-booting the system,
22 it's functioning again.
23 The case was called by Madam Registrar, and we had technical
24 difficulties, and I have reminded Mr. Hansen that he is still bound by
25 the solemn declaration he gave at the beginning of his testimony. And
1 finally I invited you, Mr. Hedaraly, to resume your examination-in-chief
2 after I had advised the parties that the Chamber expects to conclude the
3 testimony of this witness today and that even some time would remain.
4 That is also the reason why the Chamber has decided that we would
5 have a less than usual lunch break in order to avoid any risk that we
6 would have to ask Mr. Hansen to stay over the weekend.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 WITNESS: STIG MARKER HANSEN [Resumed]
10 Examination by Mr. Hedaraly: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hansen.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. We left off yesterday talking about the looting in Knin on the
14 7th and 8th of August when you left the UN camp for the first time.
15 Do you remember that discussion we had?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Let me go to your third statement, which is P1285. That's tab 3
18 in your binder.
19 At paragraph 10, the next-to-last sentence you say: "I remember
20 that in Knin I saw on houses -- I saw signs on houses saying something
21 like, Croat houses, do not touch."
22 Now, can you please tell the Court how many of these signs you
23 saw in Knin, whether that was a regular occurrence or just one incident?
24 A. While I do not remember the exact number, I saw a number of
25 houses, so it was a regular occurrence, yes.
1 Q. Would you be able to provide the Trial Chamber with any estimate,
2 just whatever you would feel comfortable as being accurate.
3 A. I mean, I saw them wherever I went. I did not, or course, see
4 them where I did not go. And I would assume maybe 20, 50.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hansen.
6 In the same paragraph, you are also saying that looting was
7 committed by both military and civilian persons.
8 Can you give the Court any information as to whether there was a
9 sequence to the looting?
10 A. Yes. In the very beginning from our -- from the time we stayed
11 in the southern barracks, we could see what unfolded just outside the
12 main gate and the looting that took place at that point was conducted by
13 combat troops. And that means up until about the 8th. And at that time
14 we were able to leave the camp and patrolling the streets and -- and the
15 -- the urban areas and the rural areas, we noticed that the combat troop
16 had left, were replaced by a different kind of troops, and we saw also
17 police involved.
18 So from this point on, there was a -- a different dynamics of the
19 looting, and that went on until I left Knin at about the 17th, 18th.
20 I then came back in the beginning of September, and at that
21 point, a noticeable change was that a lot of civilians were involved
22 also. So to my recollection, I see about three waves in this campaign.
23 First, the first four or five days after the Storm operation, looting
24 conducted by combat troops from about the 8th, 9th, until the 17th,
25 uniformed personnel mainly and that continued up until the 17th, and then
1 when he came back also civilians were involved.
2 Q. I just want to clarify. When you say uniformed personnel, are
3 you referring to troops or to police or to both?
4 A. To both, sir.
5 Q. Thank you. Let me change topics slightly and show you P830 which
6 is in tab 6 of your binder. And we'll come back to this document as well
7 later, but for now I just want to focus on the second page of it, under
8 -- at the top of the page, under item F, where it says in the last --
9 that that item:
10 "Team Knin report that continuing restriction of movement in
11 trying to get to Benkovac and Obrovac. They were told by the policija on
12 the check-points that they could only get to these places with the
13 written permission from General Gotovina."
14 Let me ask you: Do you remember being prevented from going to
15 Obrovac and Benkovac on the 10th of August, the date of this report?
16 A. Yes, we were prevented from going there at this time.
17 Q. Let me now move to P1288 which is in tab 16 of your binder. And
18 right before -- in the paragraph item 2(b) right before the item 3,
19 political situation. It says -- yeah, it's on the screen as well. It
21 "As per order from the Croatian Ministry of Defence - and that
22 report is from 12th of September from your team - only the Generals
23 Gotovina Cermak can deal with the international organisation directly."
24 Do you remember being told this?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Finally, in this sequence - just pausing the translation - and I
2 will call up 65 ter 1045, which is at tab 51.
3 And this is a daily report from Team Split on the 7th of August,
4 and under item 2 it says:
5 "We spoke about permission to go monitoring team N2 area, and he
6 informed us that before clearance from Colonel General Gotovina we were
7 not allowed to accomplish our tasks."
8 Now, Mr. Hansen, based on your patrols in those times, what was
9 your understanding of Mr. Gotovina's role and authority in the Krajina
10 after Operation Storm?
11 A. That the General was -- was a -- a senior commanding officer, to
12 which much was referred, and for us, basically it dealt with the
13 restrictions of permissions to move around.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr, Hansen.
15 MR. HEDARALY: If I can have 65 ter 1045 admitted into evidence.
16 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, after the assignment of exhibit
19 numbers to documents that were tendered by the Prosecution motion of 25th
20 of November 2008, the next exhibit number will be P2146, and that number
21 will be assigned to this document. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And it is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. HEDARALY:
24 Q. Mr. Hansen, in your statement you also refer to times where you
25 were stopped at a check-point and you called General Cermak from the
1 check-point, and upon calling him, restrictions of movement were lifted.
2 Now let me show you one of those examples, and that is P1294
3 marked for identification, and that is at tab 23 of your binder. It's a
4 15 September report from your team. And at the top, section B under FOM,
5 freedom of movement, it says on our way to Donji Lapac, restriction of
6 movement in Otric lifted only after phone call to General Cermak."
7 Mr. Hansen, can you tell the Court approximately how many times
8 you were stopped at the check-point and able to get through after calling
9 General Cermak?
10 A. It's a bit difficult for me to remember the exact numbers. But
11 in the very beginning we were restricted from moving around. Then upon
12 arrival of General Cermak, I think it was in the middle of -- of August,
13 we agreed that -- or we talked about the restrictions of moving around,
14 and he agreed that we -- if we were faced with problems we could call him
15 directly and he would be of assistance, and so we did, and I would assume
16 that we did this maybe three, five times.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hansen.
18 MR. HEDARALY: If we could have P1294 admitted into evidence.
19 That was one of the attachments to the witness statement where there were
20 objections for late disclosure, but that that document was, in fact,
21 disclosed in March 2007. So if we could have that into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I hear from the Defence.
23 MR. KEHOE: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the document will retain exhibit
1 number P1294 but will now become an exhibit.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and is admitted into evidence.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Hansen, on those occasions where you were stopped at
6 check-points, did you see military vehicles going through the
7 check-points with what appeared to be looted goods without being stopped?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And was this a regular occurrence or an exceptional occurrence
10 when you observed this?
11 A. No. That was a regular occurrence.
12 Q. If we can now go to P895 which is in tab 18.
13 Mr. Hansen, you meant General Gotovina on one occasion. Is that
15 A. That is right, yes.
16 Q. And we have the report from that date that will come up from your
17 team, dated 20 September 1995.
18 MR. HEDARALY: I may have called up the wrong number. P895.
19 MR. KEHOE: You have the right number.
20 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you. Just wait for the document to come on
21 the screen so that everyone can follow.
22 I'd like to thank Mr. Kehoe.
23 Q. Now you talk about this meeting in item 2. And just to confirm,
24 you were team leader K1, TL K1, that refers to yourself. Is that right?
25 A. That is right.
1 Q. And it says that you and the head of the RC and the deputy head
2 of the CC met General Gotovina?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. Then the next paragraph :
5 "Asked about the ongoing looting, arson, and harassment. The
6 General's opinion is that police has to control the situation and Croatia
7 is still a nation with a constitution, law, and order. Any persons
8 committing crimes will be charged. However, a war is always followed by
9 disasters, and now things are under control. The General has no
10 objection for Serbs to live in Croatia
11 feeling to hate an enemy, who has burned, looted, and expelled one's
12 family. The war will not be stopped by nice words of international
13 organisations [sic]."
14 Now, Mr. Hansen, what did you make of that statement from
15 Mr. Gotovina that he regards it as "a human feeling to hate an enemy who
16 has burned, looted, and expelled one's family"?
17 A. Well, the ARSK was a Serb occupied territory of Croatia, and at
18 the time of the occupation in 1991, the majority of the Croat population
19 were expelled from that area and facing kind of harassment and burning
20 and looting, just like it happened in 1995. Sorry, in -- yeah, in 1995.
21 Q. And, Mr. Hansen, do you have an independent recollection of this
22 meeting with Mr. Gotovina?
23 A. Well, today I'm not having any additional recollection apart from
24 this report, and I believe that at the time we wrote the report, it's
25 accurately reflected the deliberations of the meeting.
1 Q. Okay. And what was your impression, based on that meeting with
2 General Gotovina, of his authority at the time in the region?
3 A. Basically that he would expect civilian authorities to hold
4 responsibility and authority for the development following the military
6 Q. In this meeting, did you discuss with General Gotovina whether
7 Croatian soldiers had been involved in these crimes?
8 A. Yeah. We presented our -- our own observations, and that
9 included uniformed and military personnel being part and parcel of the
11 Q. And what was General Gotovina's response to that?
12 A. Well, I can -- I can refer to the text here, and he would excuse
13 it with a human feeling of hate an enemy and, therefore, some level of
14 revenge, probably, would be accepted.
15 Q. Did you take the reference to "any persons committing crimes will
16 be charged," did you understand that to cover both civilians and
18 A. That is true, yeah.
19 Q. Let me now change topics and move to -- let's keep this document.
20 You remember visiting the Plavno valley, Mr. Hansen?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. And if we go to item 4(a) at the bottom of this report on the
23 same page. It says: "Today we visit Plavno valley. Situation is going
24 worse." And there's a team comment: "Many cars patrolling today with a
25 lot of stolen goods inside." End comment.
1 And then it says:
2 "In each hamlet we heard a lot of complaints due to looting,
3 shooting, killing cattle, and no police protection up to now. Desperate
4 people ... want to move to Serbia
5 And let me show you another report, which is 65 ter 6994, that is
6 at tab 46. And it's another report for Team K1, and under 2 it says:
7 "Today we visited Plavno valley. Most of the people we met are
8 getting more and more desperate due to the ongoing looting and
9 harassment. They want to leave immediately to Serbia."
10 Mr. Hansen, do you remember people in Plavno wanting to leave
11 because of these incidents?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, if I could have 65 ter 6994
14 tendered into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P2147.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
18 MR. HEDARALY: If I could now have please 65 ter 7025, which is
19 tab 42.
20 Q. And, Mr. Hansen -- I'll just wait for the document to come up.
21 MR. HEDARALY: Go to the third page of this document. Under item
22 3(e), it mentions that the chief of police in Knin told team K1 that the
23 main police task is to protect people and their property and to perform
24 traffic control and that in his opinion, the state of manpower is
25 adequate and sufficient to fulfill the task by manning check-points and
1 doing mobile patrols in remote areas.
2 Then the very next paragraph under 4(a), it says that team K1
3 heard that three houses had been set on fire, and there was -- there were
4 looting activities as well done by both HV and civilians, and there are
5 some car plates listed.
6 Before I ask you my question about Plavno and the check-points,
7 let me go to 65 ter 7027, which is tab 44. And under 2, political
8 situation, you write on 23 September, your team writes:
9 "Today we saw a lot of traffic in Plavno, and for the first time
10 we noticed military police team, three people with a car plate. The man
11 that was in charge was captain of the 72nd brigade and that that MP team
12 was patrolling. And in Basinac which is in Plavno valley, the K1 that is
13 you and the military police team, both were witnesses of looting our
14 professional soldiers."
15 Let me just ask you first, what did you mean by professional
17 A. Well, I would assume that they were uniformed.
18 Q. And then you talk to these MPs and you say:
19 "We spoke with the military police, and they told us that the
20 check-point is inform about the above mentioned."
21 Now to your knowledge, Mr. Hansen, was anything done to these
22 soldiers that were looting in Plavno?
23 A. To my knowledge, nothing was done.
24 MR. HEDARALY: Excuse me, if I could have 65 ter 7025 and 7027
25 into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
2 Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 7025 will become
4 Exhibit P2148; and 65 ter 7027 will become Exhibit P2149.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And both are admitted into evidence.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Hansen, the last major topic I want to explore with you --
9 there will be a very short one at the end. But the last major one is the
10 destruction, the burning that you observed and reported after Operation
12 In your statement and reports, you mention a number of times
13 observing the burning of Serb homes in Sector South. We will now go
14 through all of these incidents with you, just talk about some specifics,
15 and then I want to focus on more general aspects.
16 MR. HEDARALY: If we could first have 65 ter 7009 which is at
17 tab 26.
18 Q. This is 9 August daily report. And on the third page of that
19 report, you state:
20 "ECMM in Knin reports that the very same acts committed in Autumn
21 1991 are now being repeated. Looting and burning of the surrounding
22 villages continue in the plain view of UN and international
24 Then there is a comment. Says:
25 "The burning of the Krajina Serb farming resources effectively
1 prevents them to return in larger numbers. Individual small farming
2 constitutes the basic livelihood of Krajina Serbs."
3 Mr. Hansen, did you draft this comment?
4 A. I cannot say for sure, but I could certainly have done it, yes.
5 Q. Do you agree with what is said in the comment?
6 A. But I totally agree with the content of the paragraph.
7 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, if I could have 65 ter 7009 evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
9 Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2150.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P2150 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Let me now go to P935 which is at tab 8. This is a weekly report
14 from the 13th of August. If we could go to the bottom of the second
16 It says all teams in the former Serb-held territory have been
17 continuously reporting that apart from the Croat minority village of
18 Podlapac and the old Croat town of Drnis
19 area have suffered much burning of houses. And some of the smaller
20 villages and towns of Donji Lapac and Kistanje have had every single
21 building burnt out."
22 Mr. Hansen, during your time in Sector South, did you visit any
23 Croat villages?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Could the Court if you remember the name of the village and where
1 it was in Sector South.
2 A. Yeah. I -- at a few occasions I visited a small hamlet, Siveric
3 I think the name was, about 30, 25, 30 kilometres from Knin.
4 Q. And did you visit this village after Operation Storm?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Was that village destroyed?
7 A. No, it was not.
8 Q. We'll come back to Kistanje in a few seconds. But if we move two
9 pages further in this document, on the last page. The last --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly the name of the small hamlet was what,
11 Mr. Hansen?
12 THE WITNESS: I remember it as Siveric.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Than would be spelled as far as you recollect how.
14 THE WITNESS: S-i-v-e-r-i-c.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. HEDARALY:
18 Q. On the last page of this document, it states:
19 "Rural areas and villages have been systematically burnt and
20 looted. Only the odd hamlet and previously Croat village remaining
21 untouched. Knin town and immediate surroundings have suffered only
22 superficial damage and are therefore the only area where displaced
23 persons can be expected to re-establish themselves."
24 Mr. Hansen, can you tell the Court what you observed during your
25 patrols in terms of destruction, when comparing the rural areas to the
1 larger towns such as Knin, Obrovac, and Benkovac? What was the
2 difference, if any?
3 A. Well, a consistent pattern developed which saw urban centres left
4 without any structural damage, very much in -- in contrast to the rural
5 areas which were all burned and destroyed. So you had really a
6 remarkable difference between destruction and preservation.
7 Q. And at that time, based on your observations, what did you
8 conclude about this difference?
9 A. Well, it appeared as it was an outstanding difference, it
10 appeared to be a part of a wider plan, although I have never seen a plan
11 or been informed about a plan. But it certainly turned -- in our
12 evaluation, it turned out to be a plan.
13 Q. Let's go back to P830 which was at tab 6 of your binder. That
14 was a 10th August daily report where there was a mention of
15 General Gotovina at a check-point. And I said we're going to come gook
16 it, so let's go to the second page.
17 In item 4(d) there are two incidents that you report. In
18 Kistanje you report the burning by a soldier there uniform. And also in
19 Kosovo you report six uniformed soldiers that were seen going house to
20 house setting fires.
21 Mr. Hansen, were you present in both of those locations to
22 witness these burnings?
23 A. Yes, I was.
24 Q. Can you please describe for the Court what you saw, taking them
25 one at a time. Let's start with Kistanje, and then we'll talk about what
1 you saw in Kosovo.
2 A. Yeah, upon entering Kistanje we saw a military lorry parked in
3 front of a grocery store. And inside the store a uniformed person was
4 carrying a jerry-can, and while we continued our journey, we returned
5 some 15 minutes later, and the grocery store was -- was in flames.
6 Q. And can you tell the Court what you saw in Kosovo with the six
7 uniformed soldiers.
8 A. Yeah. Upon return to -- to Knin, we saw just south of the town
9 quite a development of smoke, and we decided to go there and see what was
10 happening. And a few kilometres south of -- of Knin, we saw quite a
11 number of farm houses being set ablaze by this group of people, which is
12 referred to in the report.
13 Q. And how -- how was these group of farm houses being set ablaze?
14 How did you see the group of uniformed soldiers doing this?
15 A. Well, they were -- they were moving around in -- in a jeep and --
16 well, moving from house to house and setting it ablaze. We could see
17 that from a distance, and we even photographed it.
18 Q. If we go to 65 ter 7015 which is at tab 32 of your binder. This
19 is a special report of destruction in the former RSK.
20 Under item 2, tactics, it says:
21 "The main technique was performed first by HV soldiers followed
22 by returning displaced persons and refugees was looting and then burning
23 the houses. Different measures were seen from simple burning with wood
24 and paper to large organised actions, done by regular, commanded HV units
25 with jerrycans and petrol. The driving force behind this systematic
1 devastating is assessed to be government and military orders. 70 to 80
2 per cent of the houses are only consisting of walls and holes. So to
3 live in this house is only possible only after complete restoration and
4 re-building. The only villages, towns which were not heavily damaged
5 were the chosen new accomodation for the Croatian displaced persons.
6 These are Knin," as a showcase; there's a description of Vrlika, Drnis,
7 Benkovac, Obrovac," and so on.
8 And, Mr. Hansen, is this general description of the burning in
9 Sector South consistent with what you observed in the course of all your
11 A. Yes, in terms of the urban/rural disparity, it certainly is a
12 scenario I can confirm, and with urban centres being saved and the rural
13 areas being torched. I'm not so sure about the 70, 80 per cent of houses
14 consistently being destroyed.
15 Q. What about the manner in which the burning was performed ranging
16 from simple burning with wood and paper to large organised actions done
17 by regular commanded HV units with jerrycans and petrol?
18 A. Well, referring to my last statement, I can confirm that torching
19 was also conducted by uniformed personnel.
20 MR. HEDARALY: MR. President, can I have 65 ter 7015 into
22 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objections expressed.
23 Therefore, Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2151.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P2151 is admitted into evidence.
1 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Let me move to a slightly different topic, staying within
3 destruction. Let me show -- that's about the status of churches in
4 Sector South.
5 Let me show you a few documents quickly, and then I will ask you
6 a few questions on that series.
7 Let's start with P806 which is tab 4. That's an 8 August daily
8 report. On the last page of this report at item B it says:
9 "Team Knin report that, although there are many chapels
10 destroyed, the Orthodox church seems to be untouched and has a military
11 policija guard outside."
12 Then I want to go to the next tab, tab 5 which is P933. That is
13 the report for the next day. And on the second page you can see an a few
14 churches being mentioned, the one in Kosovo it says -- there was a sign
15 on the door saying, Do not touch, HV. Then two days later, P934, now
16 we're at tab 7. Page 3 again, under item B at the top of the page.
17 MR. HEDARALY: Can we go to the third page of this document,
19 Q. At B, it says that a policija guard was guarding the Orthodox
20 church next to the graveyard.
21 Then I want to show you P951, which is not in your binder, which
22 is a list of churches prepared by ECMM and their status. Team K1 in
23 Knin, and it lists a number of churches and their status.
24 Then finally the last document before I ask you my question, is
25 65 ter 7024, which is at tab 41 which is a supplement to the 9th, to the
1 report we just saw. And it lists a number of churches and Orthodox
2 churches, particularly that were not damaged in these towns.
3 Now, Mr. Hansen, what was the general situation of Orthodox
4 churches in the villages that you visited after Operation Storm?
5 A. They were intact and -- and as it is mentioned in some of the
6 reports that they were even sign-posted by the HV and with the
7 information to leave them intact and not target them.
8 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, can I have 65 ter 7024 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2152, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P2152 is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. If we can now go to your diary, which is P1292.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would that this would be the right moment to return
16 the diary, the original, to Mr. Hansen?
17 MR. HEDARALY: I thought that was going to be done yesterday.
18 But, of course.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I saw it is still here so ...
20 Mr. Hansen.
21 MR. HEDARALY: Feel free to refer to the original or to the
22 English portions, whichever is more convenient for my question.
23 On page 8 of the English, the entry for the 9th of August, that
24 is the day where we just saw the report where we noted the sign, Do not
25 touch, on the door of the Kosovo church.
1 In the second full paragraph you write:
2 "The Croats have been sensible enough not to touch the churches
3 in the villages. In some cases mine warning signs have been put up, in
4 other places signs saying, Do not touch, Croatian army. Clearly the
5 units have been told to keep their hands off religious buildings, and
6 they have followed the order. They know that destroying churches would
7 resinate all over the world. Yet the churches are the only thing they
8 have actually kept their hand off."
9 Mr. Hansen, do you still agree with that assessment?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Next page of your diary, the entry of the 10th of August, towards
12 the bottom you say:
13 "All the churches we came across were intact, and it appears that
14 General Gotovina has issued orders to troops to keep their hands off."
15 And in your third statement at paragraph 22, you refer to this
16 specific entry in your diary, and you stated:
17 "Since all other structures were burning and it was no secret
18 that General Gotovina was the person responsible for the military
19 operations, we just assumed that it was not a coincidence that the
20 churches were left standing and that he must have specifically instructed
21 troops not to destroy or damage them."
22 Mr. Hansen, is that still your assessment today?
23 A. That would be my assessment today also, yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 Let me move to 65 ter 7012, which is at tab 29 of your
2 At the bottom of the first page -- the top of the second page,
3 under political situation, it says:
4 "President Tudjman spokeswoman said that uncontrollable troops
5 and civilians were responsible for these actions, and that's the
6 methodical destruction of Krajina Serb homes. But that the UN has called
7 into question the sincerity of the Croatian governments appeal to
8 civilian Serbs to stay."
9 Mr. Hansen, at the time did ECMM share the same view as the UN on
10 this issue?
11 A. Yes, we did.
12 MR. HEDARALY: If we can have 65 ter 7012 into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
14 Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2153.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 If we could have P1287 on the screen.
19 Q. That is at tab 14. This is a weekly assessment. If we can go to
20 the third page of that weekly assessment under humanitarian situation.
21 And it says:
22 "The burning of Serb properties and the looting is still ongoing
23 in the former sectors north and south. Soldiers and civilians have been
24 seen laden with booty. ECMM has logged and recorded all witnessed
25 incidents, as have a number of other international organisations. These
1 activities have been reported to the Croatian authorities who have
2 attributed them to unruly elements, and in one case a senior HV officer
3 was heard to reply when asked why was a professional army doing this, Why
4 do people drink and drive?
5 Then it states the inference from the lack of control over these
6 elements is that the HV is largely uncontrollable, or that by their
7 inaction the highest ranking HV officers and Croatian government
8 officials are, in fact, condoning the activities of their soldiers and
9 civilians. The implications of these events are that they send a clear
10 message that Serbs are not welcome in Croatia, even if they are accepted
11 by the government. The Croatian people will not tolerate any further
12 co-existence with a Serb minority."
13 And you touch on that briefly in your statement at paragraph 16,
14 where you -- you say that you assume that the destruction was all part of
15 a higher plan, or it is an implicit acceptance of it.
16 Before asking my question, I also want to focus on your diary on
17 this same issue which is on page 11, the entry for the 13th of August.
18 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, that is P1292. Actually, it's the
19 entry for the 12th of August, right above the entry for the 13th of
21 Q. It says:
22 "We saw yet more houses being set alight. There is no longer any
23 doubt that this is an official policy to prevent the Serbs from moving
24 back in. The only tragedy is that the western press doesn't have a clue
25 this is going on."
1 Now, Mr. Hansen, we have seen a few conclusions in the weekly
2 assessment and in this diary. Can you tell the Chamber what were the
3 facts an observations that you made that brought you to this conclusion?
4 A. Well, again, a systematic pattern of -- of looting of all
5 property, the destruction of rural property, and preservation of urban
6 appropriate, and the fact that the Serb population at this point simply
7 were not there anymore. And led us to the conclusion that there may have
8 been a wider plan that supported this scenario.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hansen. The last very short topic I want to
10 address with you is the -- the return of Serbs or, rather, the problems
11 they faced in returning.
12 The first document I want to show you is 65 ter 7021, which is at
13 tab 38 of your binder. And it says under political situation, item 2:
14 "About two persons, a Serb man and Croat wife coming from Zagreb
15 and they told ECMM that they recently went to Belgrade in order to bring
16 back their parents who is fled Serbia
17 that the parents need papers to enter Croatia which can only be delivered
18 in Croatia
19 authorities are doing this on purpose in order to prevent Serbs from
20 coming back to their houses."
21 At that time, Mr. Hansen, when you were in Sector South is that
22 something that you knew about that other Serbs told you about, the
23 problem they had in crossing the border?
24 A. At this time it was a problem very much in the earlier stages,
25 but later on it developed to a major issue. And the core of the issue is
1 that -- that the Serb population were asked to apply for citizenship to
2 return to Croatia
3 Q. And were they allowed to apply for citizenship before coming
4 first back to Croatia
5 A. Yeah, before returning to Croatia they were supposed to apply for
6 citizenship. But this -- this administration was not supported by the
7 setting up of facilities that could support the applications at that
9 Q. Mr. Hansen, and just for the record, Mr. President, what we see
10 in item 3(c), the two persons being killed in Palanka, Kuzman Pijac and
11 Dusan Savic are part of the Prosecution's clarification killings, and
12 those are victim numbers 253 and 254. And if I can have 65 ter 7021 into
14 JUDGE ORIE: No objections by any of the Defence teams.
15 Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2154.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P2154 is admitted into evidence.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 If we can now go to 65 ter 7023 which is at tab 40. On the
21 second page of this document under item 3, humanitarian situation, there
22 is some destruction mentioned, but there's also that third paragraph that
23 I want to focus on, where it says that:
24 "The Croatian government is preparing a law which allows
25 displaced persons to be accommodated in abandoned houses if the owner
1 does claim his property within 30 days. This law may open ways to
2 illegally expropriate Serbs who fled the area."
3 Now, Mr. Hansen, were you aware at the time that such a law was
4 about to be passed or that was being passed?
5 A. No, I was not personally aware of this.
6 Q. At the time did you hear about such a law that was going to be --
7 or that it was in the making?
8 A. Yes, we heard rumours.
9 MR. KEHOE: I think the witness said he didn't know anything
10 about it, so ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he said he was not personally aware of it, and
12 I think that Mr. Hedaraly is seeking clarification what that exactly
13 means under those circumstances.
14 Did you hear about it at the time, or did you see any documents?
15 Could you explain what you meant by that you were not personally aware?
16 THE WITNESS: By mentioning that I was not personally aware is a
17 phrase that I use because I did not see any documentation, I did not see
18 any public information about it, but we heard rumours at the time that
19 this was a law in the making, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Rumours coming from?
21 THE WITNESS: Well, in -- there was a lot of rumours going on
22 everywhere at this time so ...
23 JUDGE ORIE: So you're not able to identify who exactly spoke
24 about it under what circumstances and with what authority.
25 THE WITNESS: No, no, I'm not.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. HEDARALY:
4 Q. And when it says that the law allows displaced persons to be
5 accommodated, what you heard about that, that would be Croat displaced
6 persons from 1991. Is that right?
7 A. That is right.
8 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, can I have 65 ter 7023 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's 7023 has been admitted, I believe, as 2152, if
10 I'm not mistake.
11 MR. HEDARALY: No, 2154 was 7024 on my list.
12 MR. KEHOE: Apologies.
13 MR. HEDARALY: No problem.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that there are no objections, Mr. Kehoe?
15 MR. KEHOE: No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 7023.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Will become Exhibit P2155.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. HEDARALY:
20 Q. And the last document I want to show you, Mr. Hansen, is 65 ter
21 7011, which is at tab 28 of your binder. This is a 14 August report. I
22 want to go -- actually, on the second page we can see under former Sector
23 North and Sector South it says:
24 "In former sectors north and south, the Croatian civilian police
25 appears to be replacing regular HV units which are retained from the
2 But that's not the question I want to ask you about. It is it on
3 the third page, the next page, the middle, it has an announcement from
4 the head of the Croatian government committee for the return of displaced
5 persons, Minister Radic. And under item B it says: "Displaced persons
6 can also return to free houses and flats." And then there's a comment
7 saying: "Free houses and flats can be interpreted as the homes of
8 thousands of Serbs who fled Croatia
9 And then two paragraphs later:
10 "The systematic destruction and burning of large areas in the
11 southern part of former Sector South is also continuing. Houses have
12 been burnt in practically every town of former Sector South (except
13 certain villages with a Croatian minority). In some smaller villages and
14 towns, every single building has been destroyed."
15 Now my question for you refers to the earlier portion about the
16 free houses and flats. At the time when you were in Sector South, did
17 you observe Croatian -- Croat displaced persons from 1991 moving into
18 Serb abandoned houses after Operation Storm?
19 A. I do not recall any -- any settlement or return of Croats to
20 settle in abandoned Serb property. We saw a lot of what I would call
21 tourism where people came to see the area -- where Croats came to see the
22 place, but they did not stay and returned to from wherever they came.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hansen.
24 MR. HEDARALY: Can I have 65 ter 7011 into evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
1 Therefore, Madam Registrar, that would be number ...
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2156.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P2156 is admitted into evidence.
4 Whenever it appears on the transcript that I say no objections,
5 that is not because I decided that there are no objections, but it
6 reflects what happens in the courtroom. That is, when looking at Defence
7 teams from their body language, I deduce there are no objections.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Just one quick housekeeping matter regarding exhibits. If we can
11 have P1293 vacated. That was the aerial photo marked by the witness. In
12 court he added a marking and that has become P1299, I believe. So there
13 is no more need for P1293. We can just keep the photograph with the
14 additional marking, as opposed to keeping both.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think the original marking can be
16 clearly distinguished from the later marking which was very limited and
17 was just about a house, I think, in addition to already numbered markings
18 which were assigned Roman numbers.
19 MR. HEDARALY: That is correct, Mr. President.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, the marked photograph is P1298.
21 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I will check that. Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic,
23 for this correction.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you. Your Honour, at this time I would like
1 the diary, P1292 to be admitted into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you had an opportunity to look at the
3 original. Apart from this aspect, any objections?
4 MR. KEHOE: Nothing further than have been presented previously.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hedaraly ...
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, the Chamber will further consider the
8 objections already presented by the Defence, and I think, as I said
9 before, at the end of the -- at the conclusion of the testimony of this
10 witness, the Chamber will decide on admission.
11 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President. The only remaining item
12 is --
13 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing is now that it then -- it is uploaded
14 because it has not yet received a number when I'm --
15 MR. HEDARALY: It received a MFI number because I was going to
16 refer to it, and that was P1292.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I must have missed that. So it keeps the
18 status of marked for identification.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you.
21 The last item, Your Honour, is a few bar table documents. I
22 sent them yesterday to counsel. There were the three from yesterday,
23 P1295, up to and including 1297. And there were additional ones, 65 ter
24 7022 which relates to killing number 156, and 65 ter 3532 which relates
25 to the events in Grubori, scheduled killing number 4. The portions have
1 been provided in the spreadsheet that was sent yesterday.
2 I would move for all five of these to be admitted as well as the
3 newspaper article, but I understand those are all bar table submissions,
4 so it's whenever it's convenient for the Chamber.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The five documents just referred to by Mr. Hedaraly.
6 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I have not had a chance to look at
7 those, and certainly not in the context presented here. I will take a
8 look at those as quickly as possible given the fact that they are coming
9 across as a bar table submission.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then numbers will be assigned to them and they
11 will be marked for identification.
12 Madam Registrar, the first series of three, 1295, 1296, 1297,
13 those being 65 ter numbers --
14 MR. HEDARALY: Those are P numbers marked for identification.
15 JUDGE ORIE: They are P numbers. They are already --
16 MR. HEDARALY: The last two ones are the ones that need P
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 7022. Yes, you're right.
19 Madam Registrar, 65 ter 7022 will be marked for identification
20 as ...
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2157, marked for
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And 65 ter 3552.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2158, marked for
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 Mr. Kehoe, when could we hear from you and from other Defence
4 MR. KEHOE: By the beginning of the week, Your Honour, I mean --
5 JUDGE ORIE: By the beginning of the week.
6 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, just a small error. I think you
7 stated 3552, and I think it's 3532, just so that we don't get confused,
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm not a doctor, but my handwriting is just as
10 bad as that from doctors.
11 Thank you, Mr. Cayley.
12 So it is 65 ter 3532 that has now been assigned P number 2158.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President. This concludes the
15 Prosecution's examination for this witness.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hansen.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, I think it would be practical to have
18 the break now because otherwise we would have to stop after five minutes.
19 Are the Defence teams confident that the invitation to conclude
20 the testimony of this witness today is achievable?
21 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President, I will go first. Your
22 invitation is very welcomed, and I will in fact be considerably less than
23 three hours, so I think we will be able to hold Mr. Kehoe responsible for
24 the fact that we end up with time running out at the end, but certainly I
25 think all three counsel will be finished. I will be a matter of an hour,
1 hour and a half.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I estimate that I will be one
4 session at the most which is about an hour and a half, I believe.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber felt more or less compelled
6 yesterday to instruct for a very short lunch break. Now, there are two
7 options: Either we say we will easily deal with the matter, let's take
8 more time for lunch. We also could prefer to have not too late a finish
10 Could I hear who are the lunch freaks and who are the earlier
11 weekend freaks?
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm an early weekend freak.
13 MR. KEHOE: I'm a lunch freak, Judge.
14 MR. CAYLEY: And I'm just a freak, Your Honour. For me, I'm not
15 worried, Your Honours. Thanks.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hansen, do you have any preference. I don't
17 know whether you have any travel arrangements which would make it more
18 attractive for you to leave early.
19 THE WITNESS: My key concern would be our ability to complete my
20 presence here today.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You have no -- there is not pressing need to rush to
22 airports or trains or --
23 THE WITNESS: I have no preference as such.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber will finally decide this very
25 important matter, but not until after Mr. Hedaraly, the Prosecution has
1 had an opportunity to express itself on the matter as well.
2 MR. HEDARALY: The Prosecution will leave it up to the Chamber,
3 Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We will have a break and resume at ten
5 minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hansen, you'll now be cross-examined by
9 Mr. Cayley. Mr. Cayley is counsel for Mr. Cermak.
10 Mr. Cayley, please proceed.
11 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Cayley:
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hansen.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. I want to take you back very briefly to a response that you gave
16 to my learned friend Mr. Hedaraly. When he asked you about the period
17 between 1991 and 1995, when the Krajina was in fact an occupied part of
19 A. I do, yes.
20 Q. And I'm right in saying that after 1991 the Croatian population
21 was attacked, their property was burned and looted, and they were
22 expelled from this area of Croatia
23 A. Well, I was not there at the time, but you are right, in the
24 sense that the majority Croat population were expelled from the RSK
25 occupied areas of Croatia
1 Q. And in August of 1995, after Knin was retaken, many of these
2 people who been expelled returned to the Krajina. Is that right?
3 A. You are right in the sense that during my time in the aftermath
4 of the operation, I saw many civilians returning to the area not to
5 settle at this point, but I think I called it tourism before. So they
6 were there to somehow, I would assume, check property to see what it was
7 like after some years of absence.
8 Q. Now, Knin fell much more quickly than the Croatians expected it
9 to. It fell, to them, in a much quicker fashion than they had expected,
10 didn't it?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. You don't know?
13 A. But certainly the -- we had the impression that -- that the
14 military operation succeeded in a much faster pace than originally
16 Q. And the aftermath of the military operation to retake Knin was a
17 fairly disorganised situation. Would that be right?
18 A. Would be right.
19 Q. And these Croatian civilians who were returning, these tourists
20 as you call them, were returning into this disorganisation; would that be
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. And these individuals -- did you speak to any of these people,
24 the returning Croatian civilians?
25 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. Did any of your colleagues speak to these people?
2 A. Not as far as I know.
3 Q. Would you describe them, at least the people you saw even if you
4 didn't speak to them, that they were angry after having been absent from
5 the region for several years?
6 A. Well, in one instance, I recall a person being angry because I
7 met that person. But apart from this, I would assume that people were
8 simply interested in -- in having a look into an area they lived in
10 Q. And these civilians that you saw returning, do you know whether
11 any of these individuals were the individuals that were, later on in the
12 month of August, involved in looting property in the Krajina?
13 A. I would assume so.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, if we can now talk a little bit about
15 Mr. Cermak. Would I be right in saying that it was your impression that
16 Mr. Cermak attached importance to a good relationship with the
17 European Community monitoring mission? And I have an exhibit that I can
18 show to you if you want to refresh your memory from the time.
19 A. No, I think this is an accurate description of the invitation to
20 a cooperation, and I remember an invitation that -- from General Cermak
21 that somehow invited for a level of cooperation.
22 Q. And you regarded him as the point of contact for ECMM within
24 A. Yeah, for civilian affairs, yeah.
25 Q. And it would be fair to say, wouldn't it, that his door was
1 always open as far as can you remember to the ECMM. If you wanted to see
2 him, you could?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. I'm right in saying also that at some stage he tried to find you
5 accommodation in Knin, didn't he? I don't think he was successful, but I
6 think he made an offer of trying to find you accommodation.
7 A. It is true in the sense that we -- we informed General Cermak
8 about our difficulties in identifying a suitable place for our office,
9 and upon this information he offered his assistance in identifying a
10 suitable place, and so following this he assigned two liaison officers to
11 assist us.
12 Q. And did you eventually find accommodate addition or not?
13 A. No, we were not successful.
14 Q. Where eventually did you base your headquarters in Knin?
15 A. Eventually we agreed with a -- with a landlord of one of the
16 monitors to turn his accommodation into an office base.
17 Q. I want to turn to another subject matter with you, and that is
18 the title and function of General Cermak.
19 Now, in your first two statements, you refer to Mr. Cermak as the
20 military governor. I won't show those to you; I don't think there is any
21 dispute about that with the Prosecution.
22 But I would like you to look at your statement of April of 2008,
23 and that's P1285.
24 MR. CAYLEY: And if, please, we can have page 4 of that
1 MR. HEDARALY: That would be tab 3 in the -- if I don't mind --
2 MR. CAYLEY: No, no, please. Thank you, that's very helpful.
3 Q. Now, in paragraph 15 you'll see the second sentence reads:
4 "The first meeting occurred upon his invitation sometime in the
5 middle of August, although I cannot be sure of the exact date. We
6 understood from that meeting that he was acting as the civilian
8 So in this statement you state that he is the civilian governor.
9 Now, before I ask you any questions, I want to show you a number
10 of other ECMM documents that you've admitted into evidence.
11 MR. CAYLEY: And if we can please have P2153.
12 Q. I don't know what the tab is, Mr. Hansen, but certainly will you
13 see it on the screen in front of you.
14 MR. HEDARALY: It's 29.
15 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you.
16 And if, please, we could go to the -- the first page at the
18 Q. And you'll see there that it states that:
19 "The restriction of movement which was reported on 16 August came
20 to an end following a meeting with the commander of the operation zone,
21 General Cermak."
22 So there we see ECMM describing Mr. Cermak by another kind of
24 MR. CAYLEY: And if we could now go to P815.
25 And if we could go, please, to the second page of that document,
1 I'm sorry, at the bottom.
2 Q. And this is, in fact, Mr. Hansen, a report by one of your
3 colleagues from Denmark
4 paragraph 3 that Mr. Cermak there is described as the commander of the
5 Knin Military District.
6 Do you see that? It's paragraph 3 at the bottom, Living
7 conditions in the former Krajina.
8 A. All right. Yeah.
9 Q. Do you see that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. CAYLEY: If we could now please go to P1286.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cayley, what we saw on our screen, the three
14 pages, says what the military commander did. But it does not identify
15 Mr. Cermak as such. So with full respect for the answer of the witness,
16 what you suggest it's described there, I do not find it here.
17 MR. CAYLEY: I accept that, Your Honour, by I think Mr. Liborius
18 actually referred to that --
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. But not in this portion, the name of
20 Mr. Cermak does not appear in any way.
21 MR. CAYLEY: We can he go to P12 --
22 JUDGE ORIE: No. It's just you asked the witness whether that is
23 what is described there, isn't it? Whether Mr. Liborius describes this,
24 and I have some difficulties in understanding how the witness could find
25 that there without any further reference to Mr. Cermak.
1 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour. I will move to another exhibit
2 which is clearer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. CAYLEY: P1286. And can we go to the second page. Can we
5 move to the bottom of that page. Yeah.
6 Q. And there you can see if you look at the last but one paragraph,
7 it says comment:
8 "The military commander and administrator of Knin,
9 General Cermak, stated earlier that these soldiers are under his personal
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yeah, I do.
13 Q. Now, it's only the title that I'm interested in. And let's not
14 include because of the comments of the Presiding Judge, commander, Knin
15 Military District. But it appears, doesn't it, from these documents that
16 there was a certain degree of either disagreement or confusion in ECMM
17 about the official title of Mr. Cermak?
18 A. Well, from what you have presented there, it stands out that
19 there is a different -- a difference in understanding of his
20 responsibility, yeah.
21 Q. And that was amongst your colleagues. There was a problem in the
22 perception of what his actual function was. You had differing views
23 amongst ECMM monitors?
24 A. Well, I mean, I would think it's fair that from my dealings with
25 General Cermak we were having -- what we were talking to him about was in
1 all instances about civilian affairs, restrictions of movement, the
2 operation of the check-points, and, as such, well, he was in uniform and
3 was introduced as General.
4 Q. Now, you say that he was in a uniform. Did he strike you as a
5 military kind of man or not?
6 A. Not really. Not really. A very different character than I would
7 have thought.
8 Q. Would it be fair to describe him as a civilian in a uniform?
9 A. That would be fair, yes.
10 Q. Now, did you know that the position of military governor did not
11 in fact exist within the Croatian governmental scheme either in the
12 military or the police or in the government generally? Were you aware of
14 A. I did not, no.
15 Q. Were you ever made aware of the fact that in fact General Cermak
16 was appointed as the commander of Knin garrison?
17 A. No, I did not, no.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 If we could now talk a little bit about the resources that
20 General Cermak had at his disposal.
21 Were you aware that in August there were only ten individuals
22 working in his headquarters in Knin?
23 A. I did not know about the organisation of his office.
24 Q. Would it be fair to say that for the functions for the civilian
25 affairs that you were referring to that he had very limited resources at
1 his disposal from what you could see as a military man?
2 A. Our impressions were very much so that he had extremely few
3 resources at his disposal.
4 Q. And by that we're now talking about personnel or vehicles?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And from your observations of him functioning in Knin, would it
7 also be fair to say that he was simply overwhelmed with claims for his
8 time and his resources?
9 A. That would be a fair assessment.
10 Q. Let's talk a little bit now about what you could observe
11 General Cermak doing, so what functions, what kinds of activities?
12 MR. CAYLEY: And if we could please show you D299.
13 Q. Now there are many of these documents, Mr. Hansen, but I'm only
14 going to show you a couple from the time-period when you were present in
16 And here can you see that this is a request to General Forand to
17 basically recover damaged or abandoned vehicles in Knin.
18 Do you remember who General Forand was?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And you remember him as the UNCRO south military commander?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Do you recall seeing many abandoned and damaged vehicles in the
23 streets in Knin?
24 A. Yeah, I do.
25 MR. CAYLEY: If we could now please move to D298.
1 Q. And this is another request of the 8th of August to
2 General Forand from Colonel General Cermak to help restore the water
3 works in Knin?
4 Do you remember at the time that there was a problem with the
5 supply of water after Knin was retaken?
6 A. Yeah, there was a problem with all public utilities.
7 MR. CAYLEY: If we could please move to the next document, which
8 is 2D03-004 [sic].
9 Q. Do you see that this is a request from Mr. Cermak to have the
10 assistance of UNCRO repairing the electricity power grid?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall at the time that there were problems with
13 electricity supply after the fall of Knin?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, if this could be an exhibit number. I
16 don't think there should be any objections from the Prosecution. It's
17 one of their documents.
18 MR. HEDARALY: There is no objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit D1270.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D1270 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 If we could please have 2D03-0007.
24 Q. Now, you'll see that this is a request from Mr. Cermak of the 9th
25 of August, requesting that the area around the Knin hospital be cleared
1 and asking for the provision of an excavator in order to allow the
2 hospital to resume its work.
3 Do you recall at the time that there was debris around the
4 hospital that needed clearing or not?
5 A. Well, I remember that the general area around the hospital was
6 impacted during the early days of the operation.
7 Q. That's fine. Thank you.
8 MR. CAYLEY: If there's no objections from the Prosecution, Your
9 Honour, I'd ask for that document to be admitted into evidence, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly nods that there are no objections.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1271.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 And finally on this, if we could please have document 65 ter 851.
16 Q. And here you see a decision by Mr. Cermak to charge the commander
17 of the HV materiel supplies with opening grocery stores, cafes, and cake
18 shops in Knin on the 10th of August.
19 Do you recall shops and businesses reopening, even in a limited
20 fashion at that time, Mr. Hansen?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to show you any other documents, but
23 we've seen from these documents the kind of work that Mr. Cermak was
24 involved in, water, electricity, re-opening shops, cleaning debris. Was
25 that the impression that you were left with? Was that what you saw his
1 function was in Knin?
2 A. Yes, I can confirm that we were -- that this was our impression
3 then, in addition to our difficulties with moving around.
4 Q. And we'll come to that in a moment. But in essence he was the
5 man responsible for essentially rebuilding its early stages, the civilian
6 infrastructure in and around Knin so that society could get working
8 A. Yeah, I can confirm that.
9 Q. Now, if I could please show you P1288 --
10 MR. HEDARALY: Sorry, Your Honour, I have just been reminded that
11 that document needs an exhibit number. I apologise.
12 MR. HEDARALY: No objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1272.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D1272 is admitted into evidence.
16 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 If, please, Madam Registrar, we could have P1288. And if we
18 could please go to paragraph 3.
19 Q. And, Mr. Hansen, if you can see that document clearly on the
20 screen, and you go about a third of the way down that paragraph, you will
21 see it begins: "Now five weeks."
22 Do you see that? Sorry, I know it's not very clear. It's ...
23 A. Yeah, I do.
24 Q. If I can just read that.
25 "Now five weeks after the operation, we still see houses set on
1 fire and extensive looting is ongoing. Also that individuals seem [sic]
2 to select houses and simply move in. According to our opinion, there is
3 an police task here, and too little has been done to prevent torching,
4 looting, and individual settlement."
5 Now, the question I have for you is this: At this time it was
6 the ECMM view that the civilian police were responsible for stopping the
7 burning and the looting that was taking place. Yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you aware at this time of the structure of the civilian
10 police, the hierarchy, who was in charge, who the subordinates were,
11 within the Krajina area?
12 A. Personally, I was not aware.
13 Q. Now, if you could look, please, at P962.
14 Now this is the structure --
15 MR. CAYLEY: If we could just go up a little bit please to show
16 the heading.
17 Q. This is the Ministry of the Interior organisation for the Knin
18 region. You see at the top the minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak.
19 Now, you can take it from me that Mr. Cermak does not appear in
20 that hierarchical structure at all. I don't think there is any dispute
21 from the Prosecution on that issue. We don't need to go through all of
22 it, although I would just ask to you look at the box at the top which has
23 the minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak in it because I have a few
24 questions related to an incident that you referred to in your statement.
25 Now, if you can please go to P1285 which is your statement. I
1 think that maybe is tab 3 in your binder.
2 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Hedaraly, is it tab 3? I'm sorry.
3 Q. Yeah, it's tab 3 in your binder.
4 And if you could go to paragraph 17.
5 Now, you'll see in the first sentence there, you say:
6 "I don't know whether Cermak really had the power to stop [sic]
7 looting and burning, if he was sincere when he was stating that he would
8 try to control it."
9 Is it fair to say that you formed the view at the time in the
10 Knin area that Mr. Cermak was not a major influential figure, that he was
11 a minor player. Would that be fair?
12 A. Yeah, in terms of guaranteeing law and order in this chaotic
13 time, it would be fair.
14 Q. And you didn't believe, did you, at this time, that he had the
15 authority to stop looting in the region, did you?
16 A. No. We did not, and certainly his actions did not control it,
17 so ...
18 Q. Now, let me just show you one exhibit which is D59. And this you
19 can see is a newspaper article, and I'll just let you -- can you read
20 that all right, Mr. Hansen?
21 A. I can.
22 Q. Have you read it?
23 A. I have.
24 Q. Now, I know this is an article that was actually produced while
25 you were on probably well-earned leave back home in Denmark. But were
1 you aware that Mr. Cermak had actually publicly condemned the looting and
2 the burning that was taking place in the Krajina?
3 A. No. I have not seen this article before, but certainly in our
4 conversations he expressed views of this kind.
5 Q. So when he spoke to you he basically condemned the looting and
6 burning that was taking place in the Krajina?
7 A. Yeah, did he.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 If we could just very briefly talk about freedom of movement.
10 And if I can take you to Exhibit 1284. And this, I believe, is tab 2.
11 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.
12 Q. And it's really so that --
13 MR. CAYLEY: If we could go, please, I'm sorry, Madam Registrar,
14 to the second page of that document.
15 Sorry, Madam Registrar, if we could go to the next page. My
17 Q. Now, and just so we're clear immediately where we're going,
18 Mr. Hansen, this is in fact a correction that I'd like you to make to
19 your own statement. And you will see immediately what I mean when I show
20 you the report.
21 Now, you state in the second paragraph that you have been shown a
22 sitrep of the 17th of August. And you say that you are the co-author of
23 that report.
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yeah, I do.
1 Q. And in the next paragraph:
2 "The experiences that we the previous day were restricted from
3 moving through the town of Vrlika
4 the governor, Ivan Cermak and complained about restriction of movement.
5 During our stay in his office, he did what was obviously in his power by
6 phoning directly to the police station concerned and asked them to
7 guarantee the ECMM and international organisations freedom of movement in
8 that specific area?"
9 I want you to directed your mind to the part of the sentence that
10 says "by phoning directly to the police station," if you can remember
12 And now if we can actually look at the report itself, which is
13 P957. And if you go to paragraph 2 of that report. And if I think we
14 need -- in fact if you -- I'm sorry. If we go to the bottom there, you
15 will see it's the same episode. Do you see that?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And you'll see that if you go to the final sentence of that
18 paragraph, it reads:
19 "The General reacted immediately by phoning the Minister of
20 Internal Affairs and asking him to contact with the civil police in Split
21 to establish coordination to avoid these accidents in the future. He
22 told us that the officer will be punished."
23 Now, do you see the difference between your statement and what
24 you actually reported in the sense that Mr. Cermak had to call the
25 Ministry of Internal Affairs who then had to call a police station get
1 ECMM some relief?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Thank you. If we could please go back to P1284 which is your
4 statement from 1997, and that's tab 2 in your binder. And if we could
5 please go to page 2 of that statement.
6 MR. CAYLEY: The next page, please, Madam Registrar.
7 Q. And if you can go to the paragraph that begins: "During our
8 meetings with General Cermak." And if you could please go to the second
9 sentence which begins: "However, he was not able to control and
10 guarantee our freedom of movement."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. "He informed us at all times that we had necessary freedom of
14 movement. However, meeting the police at check-points, especially in the
15 southern area, we were severely restricted in our movement. Addressing
16 this problem to General Cermak, he appeared to do his utmost to solve
17 these problems. But it never impacted the police concerned, and we were
18 still opposed by restriction of movement."
19 Have you finished looking that paragraph?
20 A. I have.
21 Q. Now, that, you are referring to the Krajina generally when you
22 make that statement. Yes?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. But when you spoke with him, he was trying to sincerely help you,
25 wasn't he, even though he was unable to influence these restrictions of
1 movement upon you?
2 A. Yeah, he was.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't have any further questions
5 for the witness. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Cayley.
7 Next one will be you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
8 Mr. Hansen, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic.
9 Mr. Kuzmanovic is counsel for Mr. Markac.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hansen.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. If you could please --
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'd like to call up P1283.
16 Q. That's your statement that you gave in 1995, Mr. Hansen.
17 In that statement, in the last page, under section 6, you note
19 "Soon after noon
20 saw HV special police and military police."
21 A. Mm-hm.
22 Q. Then at P1285, paragraph 7, which is your 2008 statement, you
23 said that you left the UN camp for the first time on August 7th.
24 My question to you is: How could you see the HV special police
25 and military police on August 5 when you were not out of the camp until
1 August 7th?
2 A. Well, we could see events taking place just outside the perimeter
3 of the barracks and was quite -- quite many persons moving around just
4 outside, and from our vantage point on a balcony inside the barracks, we
5 could see activities outside.
6 Q. Okay. How do you know these were -- is there such a thing as HV
7 special police?
8 A. I don't know today.
9 Q. Okay. Is that something somebody told you?
10 A. I have -- today I have no additional comment to -- to the entry
11 into the statement.
12 Q. How were they dressed?
13 A. I really don't know today.
14 Q. Do you know that there is no such thing as HV special police?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. You also note military police that you saw them on August 5th.
17 How were they dressed?
18 A. Again, I have -- I have no additional comment to this.
19 Q. So you can't tell us how the special police or the military
20 police or the Croatian military were dressed in any way, other than
21 having a uniform on?
22 A. No, I have no recollection of this today.
23 Q. Is it fair to state that you're guessing that there was something
24 called the HV special police or someone told you that there was something
25 like that?
1 A. Well, the information must come from somewhere, so ...
2 Q. I understand that. But you have no source for that information;
4 A. Today I cannot reveal any detailed source of this information.
5 Q. And you didn't give us any of that detail either in your earlier
6 statement that you gave in December of 1995; correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 MR. HEDARALY: I'm --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
10 MR. HEDARALY: I thought that was the December 1995 statement.
11 I'm sorry.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Actually, I was referring to both December of
13 1995 statement and the 2008 statement.
14 Q. The same is true for both statements, Mr. Hansen; correct? You
15 can't tell what the source was for your information that there was such a
16 thing as HV special police or military police that you saw on August 5th?
17 A. True.
18 Q. It's fair to state, is it not, Mr. Hansen, that you do not know
19 or did not know at the time that you were in Sector South how the
20 Croatian military was organised; correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. You cannot tell us at that time how the Croatian civil police was
23 organised, correct, who was responsible to whom?
24 A. In the early days of the operation, I did not recall seeing any
25 civilian police.
1 Q. I'm just asking in general, not just in the early days of the
3 A. That's true then.
4 Q. And is it fair to say that you do not know how the Ministry of
5 Interior special police was organised; correct?
6 A. True.
7 Q. And at that time you could not identify either -- either of those
8 with any specificity by the kind of uniform they were wearing. Is that a
9 fair statement?
10 A. That is fair.
11 Q. Were you aware that the special police was not a part of the
12 Croatian army?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. Now your job as an ECMM monitor during the entire time you were
15 in Sector South was to monitor, to observe. And you're telling me or
16 you're telling us that the entire time you were in Sector South when you
17 were monitoring and observing, you were unaware that the special police
18 were a part of the Ministry of Interior?
19 A. Well, I mean, I -- today I can only say that I was not aware.
20 Q. Did you ever ask anyone for a chart or a diagram or a schematic
21 of any of the civilian military or police structures that were in place
22 after Operation Storm?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Why not?
25 A. Well, I did not.
1 Q. You're accusing in your reports certain people with uniforms on
2 that you claim are either HV special police or police or military, yet
3 you don't know how they're organised or to whom they belong?
4 A. I think it will be appreciated that there was a -- the situation
5 was framed by -- by chaos, by vacuum. And in this kind of situation, you
6 are not addressing questions like the organisation of a force to a
8 Q. Well, it was a fairly large territory, correct, Sector South?
9 A. That is true.
10 Q. And it was very rugged territory; correct?
11 A. That is true.
12 Q. Were you aware at the time of Operation Storm as a member of the
13 European Community Monitoring Mission that the special police for
14 purposes of this operation were under the command of the Main Staff of
15 the Croatian army in Zagreb
16 A. I did not, no.
17 Q. Could you tell us who was in overall command of the special
19 A. I cannot.
20 Q. Were you aware that at no time and under no circumstances were
21 the Ministry of Interior special police ever in Knin?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Were you aware that at no time and under no circumstances were
24 the special police ever in Obrovac, Benkovac, or Drnis?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Did you ever observe the Ministry of Interior special police in a
2 mop-up operation anywhere in Sector South?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Do you know what the role was of the Ministry of Interior special
5 police in conducting mop-up operations in Sector South after Operation
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Now, you relied -- strike that.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: For the Court's reference, since there are many
10 references in Mr. Hansen's materials an exhibits that discuss either
11 clean-up or mop-up operations in areas in which the special police were
12 not, I'm just going to list by exhibit number the documents that set
13 forth where the special police were and at what time, so the Court can
14 have that reference rather than go through all those documents that
15 Mr. Hansen doesn't know anything about.
16 They are, in order, D543, D555, D550, P584, P583, D552, P585,
17 D554, and P621.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
19 MR. HEDARALY: I would just like to seek some clarification.
20 Mr. Kuzmanovic stated that these were references in Mr. Hansen's
21 materials an exhibits, yet those exhibit numbers I don't think were
22 tendered through Mr. Hansen.
23 So if they're general exhibits about ECMM reports, that's fine.
24 I just want to clarify that for the record.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I could spend, you know, 35 minutes going
1 through all of Mr. Hansen's reports in which ge discusses where there
2 were military or special police conducting mop-up operations and which
3 they were not. And we would prefer to do that, I guess we can take the
4 time to do that, but I'm just trying to make things a little more
5 simpler, Your Honour. Excuse my obstruction of vision with you.
6 MR. HEDARALY: That wasn't my question. I was simply asking
7 whether the exhibits that Mr. Kuzmanovic were listing were Mr. Hansen's
8 materials or not.
9 I have no problems with him listing some of them, all of them,
10 how many he wants. I just want the record to be clear as to what is
11 being listed. That's all. I'm not trying to impede Mr. Kuzmanovic in
12 his attempt to assist the Court.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: None of those documents are ECMM documents.
14 They are P documents or D documents that refer to things like the war
15 diary of the Croatian -- Ministry of Interior special police, reports of
16 the Ministry of Interior special police, places --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be very practical. It's -- it seems as if we
18 are a bit the area of argument rather than in hearing testimony. Because
19 what you say, Mr. Kuzmanovic, is where the witness, due to his lack of
20 knowledge of the structural organisation, uniforms that were worn at the
21 time, cannot assist us properly in identifying where the special police
22 were, that you say that all these documents in which the presence of the
23 military police appears should be compared, should at least be looked at
24 before we come to any conclusions.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And this is, of course, to some extent already
2 concluding evaluating the, I would say the rather, well, negative in the
3 sense of not being affirmative evidence by this witness. At the same
4 time I do not hear Mr. Hedaraly complaining about that.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I can use an example, Your Honour, just as an
7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we take one example and just to know exactly
8 what we are talking about, and if you do it briefly, Mr. Kuzmanovic, then
9 we know exactly what you intend, what you expect us to do, and we have
10 one example.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I will, Your Honour.
12 We'll go to P1290, page 9.
13 If it's page 9 of the document I'm -- it's page 9 of the
14 document, not necessarily at the top it will say page 9. The last four
15 digits are 1809 on the bottom page. There we go.
16 Q. It's the paragraph that begins with: "Two houses were
17 observed ..."
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If Madam Registrar would please enlarge that,
19 just toward the bottom of the page.
20 Q. Mr. Hansen, this document states in part:
21 "Two houses were observed burning on the Drnis-Knin road at
23 neighbourhood of Knin at about 2100 hours. UNMOs and other personnel who
24 went to investigate were turned back by special police, who were driving
25 the other way. They said a restriction of movement had been implemented
1 effective 200 hours."
2 Now, Mr. Hansen, 1290 was part of your comprehensive survey
3 report, this particular section, on the consequences of Operation Storm.
4 Now, it's fair to state that you did not observe the special
5 police in this section of the report; correct?
6 A. I did not.
7 Q. And you were not aware that there were no special police on the
8 Drnis-Knin road, at least according to any documents that I have
9 previously cited, on 2nd of September? You have no personal knowledge
10 after that; correct?
11 A. I have no personal knowledge of that.
12 Q. Paragraph 6, Mr. Hansen, of P1283, which was your 1995 statement,
13 which I had referred to earlier.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could pull that up, please,
15 Madam Registrar.
16 Q. The last page of that document, the third sentence, fourth
17 sentence. I'd earlier asked you the question about the HV special police
18 and the military police.
19 On the third line it says: "At the same time a mop-up operation
20 took place."
21 What do you term to be in this sentence "a mop-up operation"?
22 A. I would -- today I would translate that into an operation looking
23 for pockets of military resistance, operations that would be looking for
24 civilians hiding in shelters, and --
25 Q. You observed this from the top of the UN barracks throughout the
1 city of Knin, that a mop-up operation was going on?
2 A. We were informed by -- by people who were collected and dropped
3 at the gate of the barracks that this was in fact going on, yes.
4 Q. So that's not something that you saw. That's something that you
5 heard from someone who came to the camp?
6 A. That is true.
7 Q. And I think you told us before that at least regarding the
8 special police, you had not observed them engaging in any kind of mop-up
9 operation; correct?
10 A. True.
11 Q. Did you ever observe a mop-up operation firsthand, anywhere?
12 A. I mean, I have no recollection of anything that is not reported
13 at the time.
14 Q. I mean, you don't know it is done or who does it or what -- or
15 anything like that?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Now your military experience, Mr. Hansen, was as an officer in
18 the Danish army in the armoured infantry; correct?
19 A. I was an is reserve officer, yes.
20 Q. And how long ago was that? Are you still a reserve officer
22 A. I haven't served since 1991.
23 Q. Okay. So 1991 was the last time you were a reserve officer or
24 the last time you were a full-time officer?
25 A. I have never been a full-time officer.
1 Q. Now, P1284 is your 1997 statement, Mr. Hansen. And the first
2 page of the statement, other than the cover page, the first paragraph the
3 first full paragraph where it says: "I am here to make a statement," the
4 second line toward the end of that line of that particular
5 paragraph says: "I understand that should the individuals I can give
6 evidence against be charged as war criminals."
7 Who were the individuals you could give evidence against? Did
8 you have someone in mind at the time?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Further on in this particular statement where it says: "The
11 standard procedure."
12 "The standard procedure was that following patrols or meetings,
13 daily reports were written, and in my capacity as team leader, I was the
14 author of all these reports."
15 Now, there were days when daily reports were not written. Is
16 that fair?
17 A. That is true.
18 Q. Okay. And what was the reason that daily reports were not
19 written on certain days?
20 A. If no activity took place on that particular day.
21 Q. Now, toward the end of August of 1995, at least from the
22 documents that we see that are being tendered through you, there were
23 several days that did not have reports. You were not there during that
24 time-period when some of these reports were written; correct?
25 A. That is true. I'm leaving the place around the 17th, as far as I
2 Q. And did you not return until sometime September 2nd, I believe?
3 A. Yeah, if not later.
4 Q. Now was there any disciplinary measure taken as a result of
5 somebody not writing a report?
6 A. I think it is fair to say that if activities could also include
7 administrative issues that were not reported, reorganisation, and
8 certainly also if you're looking for accommodation or office space, that
9 is not an operational activity that would be reported.
10 Q. Now in these reports if something was reported to you -- strike
11 that question.
12 When you were putting together your reports, can you describe for
13 what you say your methodology was. Did you gather reports from several
14 people and put them into one report? Can you explain that, please.
15 A. People who undertook meetings or patrols would do their own
16 reports. And then they will be submitted to the next level in the chain
17 of command, and they will be compiled into a summary report.
18 Q. And then where would your report go?
19 A. Depending on what I'm doing at the time of writing. If I'm the
20 team leader, I would send my reports to the Coordination Centre.
21 Q. Which was where?
22 A. At this time, I think it is in Zadar.
23 Q. And then from there would it go somewhere else?
24 A. It would go to Zagreb
25 Q. Now you would -- in P1285, which is your statement of 2008, you
1 further describe in paragraph 7 that:
2 "Each patrol team had a deadline to send its daily report before
3 a certain time in the evening." And that "it was common procedure that
4 everyone in the team agreed to the contents of the reports before sending
6 Now, were you one that went out in the field, or were you one who
7 stayed primarily back compiling the reports?
8 A. During our August activities, I was also in the field.
9 Q. Now what -- your field work would be you would decide to go in a
10 certain area, you would do a patrol, and you would come back and write a
12 A. That is true.
13 Q. Now in paragraph 8 of this particular statement, which is the
14 next page on the screen, you return from leave on September 5th, after
15 leaving on the 17th of August. Who was the person who took your place
16 while you were gone?
17 A. A fellow countryman called -- by the name Soren Liborius.
18 Q. Now, you then worked in Zagreb
20 A. Sorry?
21 Q. You worked in Zagreb
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what was your function there?
24 A. I was operational officer.
25 Q. Which meant?
1 A. That I would be -- find myself in the receiving end of daily
2 reports from teams in Sector South.
3 Q. And what you do with those reports? Would you summarize them --
4 A. I would summarize them and forward them through the chain of
6 Q. Now paragraph 16, you state in the last sentence of paragraph 16:
7 "Since nothing was done to control the situation, we had to
8 assume it was all part of a higher plan, or at least an implicit
9 acceptance of it."
10 Now, other than making that conclusion, did you ever speak with
11 anyone that told you that there was a plan or there was an implicit
12 acceptance of looting and burning and harassment?
13 A. To this -- today, I don't remember having any discussion with
14 anyone about this issue.
15 Q. I mean, it was in fact quite the opposite. You were being told
16 by people that things were trying to be investigated, that looting and
17 burning were trying to be stopped; correct? I mean, they didn't say,
18 Yes, we're going to continue to loot and burn; right?
19 A. Well, can I only refer to my own observations during patrols and
20 in August and early September that it did take place at a large-scale.
21 And irrespective of our meetings with General Gotovina or General Cermak,
22 it -- during which we informed about what we saw, it still continued.
23 Q. Now, did you not get any information or seek any information
24 regarding people that were charged, people that were prosecuted or people
25 that were convicted of committing these acts, did you?
1 A. That is true.
2 Q. As a matter of fact, you don't know who or if anyone was charged,
3 prosecuted, or convicted or the numbers of those people. Correct?
4 A. That is true.
5 Q. Now if we go through P1300 which is a report of the 4th through
6 the 6th of August, which is a daily monitoring activity report, in this
7 report -- were you the author of this report, by the way?
8 A. No, I was not. This report is released by the ECMM headquarters
9 in Zagreb
10 Q. So do you recognise anything in this report that you may have
11 contributed, as someone in Knin?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. You do, or you do not? I'm sorry.
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Okay. What section?
16 A. Section 3, ECMM in Knin reports on 5th August.
17 Q. Where you say: "On 5 August the HV made significant gains."
18 A. Yeah, that is confirmed.
19 Q. Would that be on page ...
20 A. On my screen I have the first page of the report, the summary
22 Q. Okay. And if we -- is there something on the summary section
23 that you recognise that you had written?
24 A. Well, it is not my wording.
25 Q. Okay. Why don't we go to the next page. I'm just interested,
1 Mr. Hansen, in the parts that you recall that you might have written.
2 A. I mean, whatever is stated in this report is a summary and
3 extract of -- of team reports coming in. And now, more than 13 years
4 after, I do not recall if a particular sentence is a copy of my own
6 Q. Okay. Well, I'm not asking for that degree of specificity. I'm
7 just wondering if there is it an area of this report that you recognise
8 that you may have contributed to, and if you can't, that's fine. That is
9 perfectly understandable.
10 Where did you get the information on, for example, on the second
11 page where it says: "The HV made significant gains in a number of key
13 Where did you receive that information?
14 A. But this is it not my report, sir.
15 Q. Okay. So you don't know anything about that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Why don't we go to P1290.
18 This is your report, P1290, the comprehensive survey report;
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. On this cover page, where did you get this cover page from, this
23 A. I think from a newspaper.
24 Q. So this wasn't a map that you received either from the UN
25 military observers or --
1 A. Oh, maybe the UN Military Observer, yeah. That may be.
2 Q. So you just can't remember where you got it from?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If we go to page 1 of your report, the first full page, which in
5 the last four digits on the bottom are 1801.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we can go to the page after this,
7 Madam Registrar.
8 If we go to the lower third of the page.
9 Q. There's a paragraph that starts: "Towards the end of July."
10 And there's a notation there where it says:
11 "1 August, Croatian radio and television reported that Gospic was
12 shelled by Serbs. Due to restriction of movement, United Nations
13 Military Observers were unable to conduct crater analysis."
14 Whose restriction of movement are you referring to? Is that the
15 Serbs restricting the movement to get to Gospic from Serb-controlled
17 A. I don't recall that.
18 Q. Now Gospic was a Croatian town; correct?
19 A. That's true.
20 Q. And it would have been shelled from Serb-occupied Croatia
22 A. I think that was the subject of the UNMO's investigation.
23 Q. Now the Croatians certainly wouldn't forbid them to come in to
24 observe damage from Serb shelling, would they?
25 A. I really don't know.
1 Q. Go to the next page, please. The second paragraph starts with:
2 "At 0500 hours."
3 In the second sentence it says: "HV engaged ARSK positions all
4 along the ZOS," and I presume that is Zone of Separation; correct?
5 A. True.
6 Q. "However, during the first day, no major breakthrough was
8 Now where did you get the information that during the first day
9 no major breakthrough was accomplished? Were you aware of the break
10 through that happened in the Velebit mountains on that particular day?
11 A. No, I was not.
12 Q. So you weren't aware that the key location of Mali Alan was taken
13 in the Velebit mountains on the first day?
14 A. No, I was not.
15 Q. Later in the same paragraph it says: "Shortly after the meeting
16 it was advised by Radio Knin that the civilian population in the Krajina
17 should evacuate." Did you hear this radio broadcast?
18 A. No, not personally. I would assume I got it from -- this piece
19 of information from my interpreter.
20 Q. And who was that?
21 A. The interpreter that worked me -- worked with me since I came in
22 -- in May.
23 Q. Okay. So this is an interpreter supplied by the RSK for you?
24 A. No. No. She was employed by the ECMM.
25 Q. A person of Serbian ethnicity?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. This first particular paragraph, full paragraph discusses nothing
3 about operations in the northern part of Sector South. Is that a fair
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Now, if we go to page -- the last four digits are 1806. And the
7 bottom paragraph.
8 There's a section in this particular part of your report that
9 deals with the Plavno valley.
10 Now, the second sentence says:
11 "A visit to the site revealed that the entire hamlet of Grubori
12 numbering 20 houses was ablaze."
13 Where did you get information about the number of houses?
14 A. That was our own counting.
15 Q. Was the ECMM there on the 25th of August?
16 A. Well, it looked -- certainly this report somehow indicates that
17 we were there.
18 Q. Now do you know who was there from the ECMM?
19 A. No, I don't. Because, personally, I was not there at the time.
20 Q. Okay. Well, I'll get to that in a second.
21 It says further in the paragraph:
22 "Three panic stricken elderly women were at the location. The
23 rest of the villagers had gone down the hill for a meeting with UN
24 personnel and had reportedly also been urged to leave by Croatian
25 military uniformed personnel."
1 Now, there is no indication in this particular -- for the source
2 of this particular information; correct?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. Later in that paragraph at the bottom it says:
5 "The same evening," meaning the same day, August 25th, 1995, "the
6 HRAT returned to the site," and we'll go to the next page, "and found the
7 bodies of two murdered individuals among the ruins."
8 And there's a description of the victims. The second is
9 described as having his throat deeply slashed with a knife.
10 Where were -- what was the source of information for you here?
11 A. I -- I don't recall today.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P2158, please. And the second
13 page of that document.
14 Q. P2158, Mr. Hansen, is an ECMM daily monitoring report of
15 29 August. And the second page of this document under section 2,
16 political situation, second paragraph presents, again, a description
17 similar but not the same --
18 A. Mm-hm.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... to the one in your report.
20 This section states:
21 "A Human Rights Action Team found the bodies of five persons who
22 had been recently killed in the village of Grubori
23 "On 25 August one 70-year-old man was found dead with a gunshot
24 wound at the back of his skull, and another 65-year-old man had his
25 throat slit."
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Now, that is opposite from what is described in your report.
3 A. Yeah. But, again, I mean, this is it not in any way personal
4 observations, and -- and so I have -- I have no additional comment.
5 Q. And then in the next paragraph it says:
6 "ECMM was informed about seven old women from the Plavno area
7 whose houses had been burnt down in the last few days, two of them
8 witnessed the murder of their husbands. One was burnt alive in his house
9 and the other had his throat slit."
10 Now, this particular report now says that two people witnessed
11 the murder occur, not that two murder victims were found.
12 A. Mm-hm.
13 Q. Correct?
14 A. But again, sir, I was not even in the country at this time.
15 Q. I understand that, but this is a document that's being tendered
16 through you, Mr. Hansen. And you can't enlighten us any further;
18 A. I cannot. It is a report from the ECMM headquarters in Zagreb
19 and I was in Denmark
20 Q. Now, if we go to 65 ter 7018.
21 MR. HEDARALY: Sorry, Mr. President. The previous document,
22 P2157 had been MFIed as a bar table submission, not that Mr. Kuzmanovic
23 has discussed with the witness. I don't know if we can enter it into
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I don't have a problem with that, Your Honour.
1 It is actually P2158, if I'm not mistaken. 65 ter 3532, which is MFI
2 P2158, I will tender that document, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You say you tender that document?
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yeah. It's a bar table submission document,
5 Your Honour. We didn't have any objection to it, so ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, now I understand. You do not object to
7 the document to be admitted, the document which was tendered by
8 Mr. Hedaraly. Yes, now I understand. I was a bit confused.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... [Microphone not
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then at least P2158 is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. And just to finish off this theme, Mr. Hansen, 65 ter 7018 is an
15 August 28th daily report from the ECMM. If we look at the bottom of the
16 page, it says:
17 "On returning to UN SS," if we could enlarge that, please. It's
18 the last -- basically, there's a dash before the word "on," which may
19 indicate a paragraph.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could have that enlarged, please,
21 Madam Registrar.
22 Q. It says: "On returning to UN SS," and then there's a redaction,
23 presuming that is a person, "was informed of seven old women from the
24 Plavno region who had just been brought into the camp by UNCIVPOL. The
25 women's houses had been burned down in the last few days and two had
1 witnessed the murder of their husbands. One was burnt alive in his
2 house; the other had his throat slit."
3 So that's a third version of the incident that's described in
4 your report, P1290 at pages 6 and 7; correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Now, we had a pathologist testify by the name of Dr. Clark, and
7 the references for his testimony for the Court's benefit, are pages 14278
8 through 14280. And Dr. Clark, when conducting his analysis of this
9 death, found that there was no one that had a deeply slashed throat, that
10 this comment in these reports that had been spread throughout from report
11 to report, was not accurate. Were you aware of that?
12 A. I was not aware of that.
13 Q. Now, were you also aware that one of these individuals was found
14 by Dr. Clark to have been -- died of gunshot wounds, six of them?
15 A. No, I was not. I was not even in the country at the time.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go back to -- I'd like to tender
17 7018, Your Honour, 65 ter.
18 MR. HEDARALY: No objection, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become
21 Exhibit D1273.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D1273 is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go back to P2158, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, I'm looking at the clock.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: One section on this document, Your Honour, and
1 then it's a good time for a break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: P2158, Madam Registrar, please.
4 If we could go to the second page of that document. And if we
5 could scroll down a little.
6 Q. Mr. Hansen, this is a document that I had spoken to you about
7 earlier, the second of the three descriptions of this event in Grubori,
8 all of which have differences.
9 If you look up at the top, where it says "above the political
10 situation section."
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could scroll up a little bit, please.
12 Q. There's a paragraph that says:
13 "Former Sectors North and South: Serb soldiers continue to
14 surrender in former Sector South. Nine of them did so to the HV in the
15 Podinarje valley which is seven kilometres east of Knin under UN
16 observation. ECMM and the UN are trying to monitor their surrender.
17 Coordination between international organisations and Croatian
18 anti-terrorist groups is expected to be established soon."
19 Now the incident in Grubori which was described below and the
20 surrender of soldiers east of Knin was going on roughly at the same time;
22 A. I don't know, sir.
23 Q. Were you aware there were pockets of Serb soldiers in areas that
24 were surrendering or being forced to surrender after Operation Storm had
25 been concluded?
1 A. I -- I will have to -- to go back to the time. And commenting on
2 it, I can say that I don't have any proof of evidence that they were
3 there, but I would suspect -- suspect that -- that pockets of resistance
4 of soldiers were left behind in a very chaotic situation so -- and
5 therefore also justifying the mop-up operation, yes.
6 Q. Okay. So this particular document, it discusses the surrender is
7 an ECMM document; correct?
8 A. It is an ECMM headquarter report we're looking at.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, this is a good time for a break.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
12 However, before we take a break I would already invite
13 Madam Usher to take Mr. Hansen out of the courtroom because we have to
14 deal with one procedural issue not in any way related, Mr. Hansen.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 We turn into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 14995-14997 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Hansen, I'd like to go back to your report, P1290.
20 And the page at the top is page 12, but the number at the low --
21 bottom right is 1812. The bottom paragraph.
22 Mr. Hansen, this report that you wrote in September of 1995 on
23 this particular section, bottom paragraph states:
24 "The wish to use the burnings as a psychological operation
25 designed to raise fear among the remaining Serb population in Sector East
1 and in the western part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. From a military point
2 of view, this is a good opportunity to use well known standard
3 techniques: The aim of this psy-ops is to facilitate the expected
4 fighting for the desired terrain. By creating an impression with the
5 enemy that the war is merciless, that no prisoners or property will be
6 spared. The enemy, in this case, is likely to flee in large numbers."
7 And before we get to the reasoning behind this paragraph, you do
8 realize, Mr. Hansen, that when you refer to Sector East, that part of
10 A. I don't recall.
11 Q. Do you recall Sector East, Vukovar, that part of Croatia,
12 boarding on the Danube
14 A. Oh, right. Okay, sorry, yes.
15 Q. Now, you told us before that you were reserve military officer
16 having completed your service in 1991. Can you tell me, please, what
17 military or intelligence training has allowed you to make this type of
18 conclusion that you did on bottom of page 12?
19 A. Well, I had certainly -- I was -- trained on a number of
20 occasions in intelligence, yes, I was.
21 Q. You're not seriously telling us that burnings were used as a
22 psychological operation to raise fear among the remaining Serb population
23 in Sector East, are you?
24 A. Well, I have no further comment to the text.
25 Q. If we go to the same report, page 18; the last four digits on the
1 bottom of the document are 1818.
2 Before I get to that question, let me ask you one more question
3 about that statement that you made about psychological operation.
4 You have no documentation or you have you not talked to anyone
5 within the Croatian military or any military that has led to you come to
6 any evidence to base that conclusion upon; correct?
7 A. True.
8 Q. If we go back to this particular reference on page 18 at the very
9 bottom it says:
10 "The people had been mobilized in Serbia and brought to Krajina,
11 and, as it is known, it was a great hunt after them."
12 Now was this information that people were mobilized in Serbia
13 brought to Krajina received from your one of your contacts, Serb contacts
14 within the former Krajina?
15 A. Honestly, today, I don't know.
16 Q. Did you know whether people were mobilised in Serbia and brought
17 to occupied parts of Croatia
18 A. I cannot verify this information today.
19 Q. Now, if we go -- there's a term you had used, administrative
20 cleansing. Maybe not necessarily in this report. But I know I have seen
21 it in ECMM documents.
22 You know what I'm referring to, are you not?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Okay. As a matter of fact, there is there was a Hungarian
25 diplomat that came and was part of a tour that you gave; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Than was his term, administrative cleansing; correct? Or
3 self-ethnic cleansing?
4 A. I don't recall if he said that.
5 Q. When you mean administrative cleansing, did you meaning something
6 to the effect that the Serbs themselves administratively left. Is that
7 what you mean by administrative ethnic cleansing?
8 A. As far as I recall today the administrative cleansing would refer
9 to the complication associated with the claim of property and with the
10 application of citizenship.
11 Q. After people had left?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Now you realize that few, if any, of those people had any
14 personal identification documents?
15 A. That is true.
16 Q. Now, if we go to P934, please.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sorry, before we leave your report, 1290, you
18 had an annex to that document, Annex 3, and I wanted to ask you some
19 questions about that. We don't necessarily have to put it up. But
20 Annex 3 was the list that you were provided of damage, of property damage
21 to villages and towns in Sector South; correct? Do you recall?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Now as with the reporting on various ECMM reports on Grubori,
24 there are other incidents specifically in your comprehensive survey where
25 you to rely on other reports; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Now, an example in Annex 2 is you reliance on the UNMO survey of
3 damages; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. That was something that the UNMOs gave you to, and you simply
6 included it in your report; correct?
7 A. That is true.
8 Q. Now you do not know what the methodology was used that they
9 employed or how they categorised homes, for example, based on damage;
11 A. That is absolutely correct.
12 Q. And you don't know how they accounted for Croatian villages
13 versus Serbian villages; correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And it's fair to say that you cannot attest to the accuracy of
16 that particular survey; correct?
17 A. I -- the reason it is included is not because of any reference to
18 accuracy but more an indication of the level of destruction. So the
19 accuracy of the numbers are not the most important in -- in this
21 Q. Well, would you agree with me that if there was, for example, a
22 village that had listed 20 buildings in it before Operation Storm and 18
23 of those buildings were listed as partially damages and then 20 were
24 listed as totally damaged, that is it not accurate.
25 A. That is true.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P934, the second page, please.
2 Under Section C. And just for reference, this is an August 11th, 1995
3 ECMM report. You were not in Sector South on the 11th of August;
5 A. I was there.
6 Q. Oh, you were there?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. I thought you had said had you left on the --
9 A. On the 17th.
10 Q. 17th. I'm sorry, you are correct. Section C under team Knin, it
11 describes 70 soldiers in Gracac and around the same number who said they
12 were from the 150th brigade in Medak. Now were you aware at any point
13 time that as of the date of this report, 11th of August, 1995, that
14 anyone -- that any special police forces were located in Gracac?
15 A. No. And this report is from N3, and I was not a member of that
17 Q. So the fair answer to that question is you don't know.
18 A. Absolutely.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to the next page, section G.
20 Q. There's another team Knin N2. Were you part of N2?
21 A. I was a part of that team, yeah.
22 Q. There's a comment here that says:
23 "The Catholic church in Vrlika recently destroyed with Serb
24 graffiti on the walls."
25 There is no indication of when that was put on the walls;
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Yet in the common section it says:
4 "Team had interviewed Serb refugees in the camp who were from
5 that area, and they said that the church was untouched when they left
6 after the shelling had started. They believed that the damage may have
7 been done by the HV in order to put the blame on the Serbs."
8 And then the comment says:
9 "This seems fairly sensible as it is unlikely that people fleeing
10 for their lives would stop to write nasty messages on a wall."
11 Now how could you come to the conclusion that a recently
12 destroyed church Serb graffiti on the walls was plausibly destroyed by
13 the Croatian military?
14 A. Today I have no further comment. I mean, the general picture
15 when it comes to churches is that they were left standing and untouched
16 and bypassed throughout the operation, and this a single event, so ...
17 Q. Were you aware that in the middle of Knin, St. Anthony's church
18 was significantly damaged?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. So -- and that's a catholic church; right?
21 A. That's a catholic church. But not during my presence there.
22 Q. You were aware that during -- before operation storm that it was
23 routine practice for the Serbian ARSK forces to destroy Catholic
25 A. I saw destruction, yes.
1 Q. And yet in this particular passage, you find plausible that the
2 Croatian military destroyed their own Catholic church?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You don't find that plausible?
5 A. No.
6 Q. In the next section under section 4, discussing team Gospic in a
7 field full of cattle. There is a statement:
8 "There is evidence of the systematic rounding up and shipment of
9 livestock from all over the former Krajina. Their destination is
10 unknown, but it is unlikely they are being saved for reclamation by the
11 Serb population which are officially being urged to return."
12 How do you know that it was the Croatian government -- strike
14 Now, what other method did the Croatian government have that you
15 could tell us to reserve livestock that had been abandoned in the flight
16 of the Serb population? If there is no Serb population to take care of
17 the livestock, are they just supposed to stay there in the fields?
18 A. No. I mean, I think it was -- I thought, and I still think, that
19 it was a sensible thing to collect the cattle in order to save guard it
21 Q. So rather than being something that was nefarious or something
22 that was done to discourage the Serbs from returning, it was something
23 done to save the cattle?
24 A. Yeah. I mean, if the cattle is left without any observation, I
25 mean, it's a sensible thing to do.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to the next -- P935. It's a 13th
2 of August ECMM report.
3 Q. Again, there's discussion here under political assessment. Could
4 you tell me, were an author of this report?
5 A. I may have been. It could be. I'm not totally sure.
6 Q. I'm not going ask you who else might have been. I just want to
7 know --
8 A. I could easily have been one of the authors.
9 Q. Okay. The first paragraph describes the mayor of Knin:
10 "A Serbian man who has no history, as far as we can tell, of any
11 kind in politics. He is expected to be a puppet for the controlling
12 Croatian authorities and purely a figurehead for the world to see how
13 'well' the remaining Serbs are being treated by Croats?"
14 What is the basis for that statement?
15 A. I can certainly say it is not my wording and --
16 Q. Did you have the feeling that this man was a puppet?
17 A. And we are talking about who?
18 Q. The mayor of Knin. That's --
19 A. And who is that at this time?
20 Q. It's not listed in this particular --
21 A. I'm not sure there was a mayor.
22 Q. Was it the government representative of Knin?
23 A. Yeah. Because as far as I remember, there is no mayor at this
24 particular point in time. That would have been General Cermak. No, he
25 arrived evening later.
1 Q. Below it is listed as Petar Pasic at the bottom of this
2 particular document, if we could scroll up.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. You had no reason to believe that he was a puppet, was he?
5 A. To this very day, I mean, I don't -- I cannot comment on that
7 Q. Now at the bottom of this particular document, there's also a
8 request for assistance of ECMM in persuading the remaining ARSK troops
9 hiding in the hills around Medak to give themselves up.
10 Do you recall that?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. At least there's another comment here as of the 13th August of
13 1995 that someone, specifically Mr. Kasumovic has reported that there are
14 ARSK troops hiding in the hills; correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Now, if question go to 2 on the next page, military assessment.
17 The middle of that paragraph, the first paragraph under military
18 assessment. Actually, we can go a little farther up than that. Fifth
19 line at the very end of that line, the sentence begins: "It is ..."
20 "It is assessed that the swiftness of the success of
21 Operation Storm caught not only the HV by surprise but also the civilian
22 authorities who were supposed to go in afterwards and take over.
23 Consequently as the 'capital' fell in 36 hours instead of the expected
24 week, the military and civilian police who were next to arrive did so
25 late. The civilian authorities were also caught on the hop and have not
1 been able to bring their move forward at all."
2 Now, I'd like to ask you a question of what is meant by "the
3 capital fell in 36 hours instead of the expected week"? Was that an
4 assessment that you made, that you thought it would take a week to get to
6 A. I mean, I was absolutely not the author of this paragraph. For
7 me, the importance of -- of -- of this text lie in the fact that -- that
8 Knin was taken within 36 hours. And my assessment is that it appeared to
9 be a surprise to both the HV and the civilian authorities.
10 Q. And what was it a surprise to the ECMM as well?
11 A. It was a surprise to me, yes.
12 Q. Now if we go to P2150. And if we go to the second page of P2150.
13 This is an August 9th, 1995
14 second page, under political situation, there is a significant redaction
15 about presumably names or ranks of people, and it states:
16 "Blank met with blank, who stated that the number of Croatian
17 fatalities during Operation Storm was 118, with 40 in the Sisak area.
18 Blank added that the Croatian authorities had anticipated 5 to 6.000
19 losses by calculating 5 to 6 per cent of the 100.000 HV troops.
20 Furthermore, blank expected the initial numbers to increase due to the
21 'cleaning' of the mountainous areas."
22 Now that tells me, and let me ask you if it tells you, that the
23 Croatian military, along with the assessment made in the previous exhibit
24 which was P935, certainly did not expect to take Knin in 36 hours and was
25 prepared for losses of up to 6.000 of its troops.
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. So it is pretty clear, at least from their own assessment, that
3 they thought this was going to be much more difficult than it ended up
5 A. Yeah. We all thought that.
6 Q. You also thought that?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. So it is not unexpected that they wouldn't be ready after taking
9 Knin so quickly?
10 A. No. That is -- I think it is a surprise to everybody.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'd like to go to the next page of P -- I'm
12 sorry. If we go back to P935. I'm done with P2150. The same page we
13 were on P935 which was the second page. 1079 are the last four digits.
14 Q. And, again, for reference, it's Sunday, 13th of August, 1995,
15 ECMM report.
16 Again, another mention under military assessment and analysis at
17 the bottom of the first paragraph about "the presence in the hills of
18 ARSK troops who cause trouble at night."
19 Again, noting that there are pockets of resistance; correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. If we go to the next page, which is 1080, under humanitarian
23 The first sentence -- the first two sentences of that assessment
25 "A well-planned and carefully executed clean-up operation has
1 been in action through [sic] the week. The Croatian army and police have
2 swept up through the former RSK, removing evidence."
3 The first thing I'd like to ask you is what are you talking about
4 when you say "a well-planned and carefully executed clean-up operation"?
5 What is that?
6 A. Sir, this is not my report.
7 Q. I understand that. But it is being tendered -- or it was being
8 referenced through you, Mr. Hansen. Can you tell us anything or shed any
9 light on this?
10 A. I mean, I'll have to translate it, and the way I'll translate
11 such a sentence would be that -- that the HV would be looking for pockets
12 of resistance and control of the territory.
13 Q. And what -- what is meant by the term "removing evidence"?
14 Evidence of what?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. I'm sorry, did you say --
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. The next page, 1081. It says in the middle of that page where
19 the paragraph says: "Rural areas." The second sentence says: "Knin
20 town and immediate surroundings have suffered only superficial damage."
21 What is that based on, a review of the damage situation in the
23 A. Yeah, from a personal point of view, in the assessment on the
24 damage in Knin town itself, would be initiated by my own fact finding.
25 Q. And it was that it was superficial?
1 A. Well, I think the correct term would be that it is not
3 Q. The report says superficial, though. Do you know what that
5 A. No, I don't. Again, I did not write this report.
6 Q. Now, were you aware of what the civilian casualties were in Knin
7 as a result of the shelling on the first two days of --
8 A. No.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Operation Storm?
10 A. No, I don't know.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P895, please.
12 Q. Now I'm going preface my question relating to P985 by a comment
13 that you had made, I think it was both in direct examination and in the
14 answers to questions from my colleague, Mr. Cayley.
15 You had said that --
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that you misspoke and that we're still
17 talking about 895, or ...
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. If I said 985 it is a
19 mistake. It is 895.
20 JUDGE ORIE: 895. Thank you.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: It is my temporary dyslexia. 895. Thank you,
22 Your Honour.
23 Q. You had mentioned that when you saw presumably displaced persons,
24 Croatian displaced persons come back, that they came back as tourists.
25 Describe for me what you meant by that. Were they coming back to see the
1 state and shape of their residences?
2 A. Well, in order for me to say that, I would have to make a direct
3 connection between a person and -- and his ownership of a certain
4 property, and I was not able to do that. But in general terms we saw
5 many, many civilians or -- and Croats coming back to -- well, to see the
6 situation for themselves.
7 Q. Not just Croats but persons of Serb ethnicity as well?
8 A. Well, I mean there is no distinction. From a distance, a Serb
9 and a Croat look alike.
10 Q. My question relating to this issue is -- in this report under
11 political situation, 20th September, 1995, where it describes the
12 revitalisation of Lovinac, 50 to 60 native-born persons are already in
13 the village trying to repair their former homes.
14 Now, did you -- were you under the -- did you know that that town
15 had been levelled after 1991, Lovinac?
16 A. I mean, perhaps at the time I was aware of it. Today, I don't
17 recall it.
18 Q. I mean, these people who would be coming back, according to this
19 report, repairing their former homes would not be tourists; correct?
20 And as a matter of fact, in annex of damages to villages, Lovinac
21 is not a place that is not included; did you know that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. There is also mention here, There is a police station manned by
24 special police.
25 Now can you tell me anything specific about what that means?
1 A. No.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P1288, please. This is a
3 September 12th, 1995
4 Q. And the question I want to ask you relates to a military
5 situation where you state in the second line -- or where it is stated in
6 the second line: "Suspected cleaning operation, ongoing in the north of
7 the sector around Seganovac by special police."
8 Were you there to observe that at all?
9 A. No, I was not there.
10 Q. Do you know what they mean "suspected cleaning operation"?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. Would you know why someone say it was suspected?
13 A. No, that would be sheer speculation.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P936, please.
15 Q. This is a report listed with you listed as the author,
16 Mr. Hansen, dated August 16th of 1995.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to the second page.
18 Q. Under Benkovac it's listed: "We passed three check-points on the
19 entrance roads to the town, which has a seemingly [sic] little damage?"
20 Now did you know that Benkovac was one of the towns that was
21 attacked with artillery on the 4th of August, 1995?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And there is no indication of Benkovac being torched or looted,
24 is there?
25 A. No. Just like the other urban centres.
1 Q. Under the next section where it says Tomasovica Stanovi, it says:
2 "This small village was not damaged but deserted except two old
3 people who were very hungry. They don't know where the other people are,
4 even their children are gone. They have no place to go and are anxious
5 to be killed."
6 Now, that is clearly a mistake, is it not? Those people weren't
7 anxious to be killed, were they?
8 A. No.
9 Q. That is simply just a missing syntax; correct?
10 A. I think so.
11 Q. Further on down under humanitarian and human rights issue, toward
12 the middle of the page, it says: "The extensive cleaning operation after
13 Storm makes it hard to witness HRV."
14 Now, this is a document in which you at author, and you use the
15 term "cleaning operation." Can you tell us, please, what you mean by
17 A. I mean, again, it is variations over the same theme, and it's
18 about the HV looking for pockets of resistance, cleaning up the area,
19 controlling the area, and -- which you would expect any army in the
20 offensive to do.
21 Q. Okay. I mean, there is no indication here that they're hiding,
22 doing anything incorrect or wrong; correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Now, you note here "many teams fear the mine risk, and so far
25 only main roads have been patrolled by HRAT."
1 Now, mines were a significant hazard to movement, correct,
2 especially in areas that were off the main roads?
3 A. I think what is revealed in this text is that there is no hard
4 evidence of presence of mines, but the speculation into the presence of
5 mines prevented people going to particular sites.
6 Q. Were aware that after Cambodia
7 mined country in the world?
8 A. I was certainly aware of it in other places, yes.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to P1287, please. Your Honour,
10 this subject area is the last subject area I will cover. It is hopefully
11 not too extensive, but I will do my best.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Hopefully in the next 15 minutes I'll be done,
14 Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then we will have to take a break first.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Okay. We'll break, if that's all right with
17 Your Honour. Because this is a new subject that teals with this report,
18 and after I'm done with this report, I'm done with my cross-examination.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means just for me to do some -- to give
20 an assessment. So that is 20 more minutes for you, then for ...
21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. I have about two sessions.
22 Under three hours. I tried to cut it down, but about three hours, I
23 would say.
24 JUDGE ORIE: 20 minutes.
25 Then, Mr. Hedaraly, how much time you would need?
1 MR. HEDARALY: Up to now, probably only five to ten minutes, but,
2 of course, it is going to depend on the Gotovina cross-examination.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because I -- in the difficult choice between
4 the lunch freaks and the early weekend freaks, the Chamber thought it
5 wise to give an additional 15 minutes, but Mr. Kehoe, if you're not fully
6 confident to stay strictly within your time limits, it will cut off from
7 your lunchtime.
8 MR. KEHOE: I'll stay within those time-limits, Your Honour.
9 Actually, I'm confident I'll stay within that. I think Mr. Kuzmanovic
10 covered some things that I'm going cut out.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So you might even need less than three hours.
12 MR. KEHOE: I never like to see it [indiscernible], Judge, but it
13 is possible.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we earlier had some confusion about who
15 tendered what document and whether it was page 68, line 1, included
16 Mr. Misetic without any proper reason to add to the confusion. That is
17 clearly a mistake. The document was tendered by Mr. Hedaraly.
18 Then the Chamber would need -- one more question: How time did
19 you need to give a respond to the five questions? The first question
20 being answered already by kind of a schedule for the witnesses?
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, we have elected Mr. Cayley to speak
22 for us all on this issue.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cayley, could you speak for you all, please.
24 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I have actually just this moment sent
25 an e-mail to the Prosecution and your Senior Legal Officer. So we can
1 also make oral submissions in addition, but we've answered the questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have a long lunch break anyhow, so we can
3 look at it.
4 Then we take a break now, Mr. Hansen, and we'll resume at 2.30.
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.44 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, please proceed.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Hansen, I found the reference regarding the term self-ethnic
10 cleansing in P1289 which is September 12th, 1995, report that you had
11 offered, ECMM report. And it was regarding the Hungarian ambassador,
12 Mr. Cermati. And he asked questions, Why did the Serbs flee in front of
13 the CA, Croatian army? And then it's noted after the question, he,
14 meaning the ambassador, called it "self ethnic cleansing."
15 Do you know what he meant by that term that you put in your
17 A. No, sir.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Could I ask Mr. Registrar to please call up 65
19 ter 7007.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
22 Q. This particular document, 65 ter 7007, is a weekly assessment,
23 31 July to 3 August 1995
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to page -- on the right-hand
25 side, it's R026-4155. It's the third page of that document.
1 Q. Under humanitarian situation, at this particular time between the
2 31st of July and the 3rd of August 1995, you were in Knin, correct,
3 Mr. Hansen?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. In this notation under humanitarian situation, there's a total of
6 18.000 displaced persons and refugees in Sisak Zupanija and 16.000 in
7 Karlovac Zupanija, and 15.000 in the town of Ogulin, for a total of
8 37.500 displaced persons. Those are all Croatian displaced persons;
10 A. I don't know, sir.
11 Q. Do you know that Sisak Zupanija, Karlovac Zupanija, and Ogulin
12 were Croatian towns?
13 A. Right. But these locations are totally out of -- outside the
14 area of my responsibility.
15 Q. It says here that:
16 "RC Knin reported that RSK would not hinder the UNHCR delivery of
17 humanitarian aid to the Bihac pocket within the same section under
18 humanitarian situation."
19 Is it your understanding that you -- you can't tell us whether
20 these displaced persons are Croats?
21 A. I mean, I can certainly say that it makes a lot of sense if they
22 are, but, again, I mean, I'm -- it's information that has to do with the
23 area that is total outside my area of responsibility.
24 Q. Back on that subject of self-ethnic cleansing, if we could go to
25 P --
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. If we could tender 65
2 ter 7007. I forgot to do that?
3 MR. HEDARALY: No objection.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is document shall be given
6 Exhibit D1274. Thank you, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D1274 is admitted into evidence.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 On page 14 of P1290, if I could ask Mr. Registrar to please call
11 that up, the last four numbers on the bottom right-hand corner of the
12 page are 1814.
13 Q. While we're waiting to get to that -- oh, there it is.
14 Mr. Hansen, in your own report there's a section called
15 "self-ethnic cleansing" which was referred to by the Hungarian
16 ambassador; correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And in this section, it states:
19 "On several occasions it has been discussed why the Krajina Serb
20 population ran away in front of the advancing HV troops. The term
21 self-ethnic cleansing has been used and indicates that the Serb
22 population left due to RSK indoctrination through the last four years.
23 The term gives responsibility for the exodus to the Serbs themselves and
24 release anybody else."
25 Now the issue of self-ethnic cleansing is something that you,
1 yourself, put in your report and is something that you heard from someone
2 who was not a party to the conflict, meaning the Hungarian ambassador;
4 A. Correct.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Mr. Registrar, could you please pull up P1287.
6 And while it's coming up, I'll advise everyone that it is a
7 September 9th, 1995
8 Q. The second page of this document, Mr. Hansen, in the second full
9 paragraph, includes a fairly extensive discussion about an interview
10 given by the vice-president of the Sabor, Vladimir Seks.
11 Do you understand that the Sabor is the Croatian parliament?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. In that interview he is described as being utterly uncompromising
14 in his standpoint over property rights of the Croatian Serbs stating that
15 "there are no rules here."
16 Seks said that "private property of the Serbs who have left
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'd like Mr. Registrar to please call up
19 3D01-0827 via Sanction, please. It's not necessary to do it via
20 Sanction. It has been uploaded.
21 Q. And while it is coming up, Mr. Hansen, we were able to obtain a
22 copy of this interview that was used as a reference source for this
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And on this particular topic, if we could go to
25 page 5 of the English version and page 3 of the B/C/S. If we could
1 scroll down to the very bottom, where it starts with: "That's the legal
3 And I'll just represent to you that this document, the bold are
4 the questions or the comments from the author of the interview, or the
5 questioner, and the remaining portion which is not in bold are the
6 responses in this text.
7 It's a September 4th, 1995 interview. And the question is,
8 preface to this, is why there was a state of war proclaimed between
10 "That's the legal situation. However, what are the actual chances to get
11 war reparations from Serbia
12 Seks answers:
13 "Factually there are no records in history that somebody paid war
14 reparations if they did not capitulate at whole if it wasn't occupied,
15 and if paying war reparations were not imposed to it.
16 "Question: So it is like, 'Who cares. No harm done.'
17 "Answer: Croatia
18 social ownership by Serbia
19 "Question: The same as they have seized all of Croatian
20 property. How does the law regulate private ownership?
21 "Answer: Since what happened is a country falling apart and
22 creation of new ones, several solutions are possible in order to
23 compensate war reparations to Croats."
24 If we could go to the next page, I'm sorry, in English. Thank
25 you. Thank you to my colleague for noticing that.
1 I left off Your Honours in the second line of that second -- the
2 next page.
3 "Several solutions are possible in order to compensate war
4 reparations to Croats. A, a complete war defeat, total capitulation, and
5 imposed payments. That's not realistic to happen. B, after the war has
6 completely ended and the relations have been normalised, to solve the
7 question of war reparations by arrangement. This is as realistic to
8 happen as A. C, to bring a suit against Serbia before the Tribunal in
9 The Hague
10 that's unrealistic as well. D, you can say it this way: We have finally
11 got rid of everything, and that's the lowest price we could have paid.
12 E, regarding the breakup of Yugoslavia
13 ... I personally think the same, a law on succession should be applied on
14 private ownership of the ones who left Croatia of their own accord.
15 "Question: Can you be a by the more specific?
16 "Answer: Specifically that means that the private ownership of
17 Serbs who left Croatia
18 obligation and demand in probate proceedings called succession in former
21 "Question: Does that mean that Croatia would take such goods and
22 turn them into succession estate and leave to Serbia to settle the debts
23 to their citizens?
24 "Answer: That's right.
25 "Question: Does that apply on summer houses owned by Serbs in
2 "Answer: Yes, it does."
3 If we could go to the next page in English.
4 "Question: Would such proceedings be in accordance with
5 international regulations?
6 "Answer: There are no rules. It is a matter of conventions an
7 actual relations. Never in history had a country fallen apart under the
8 same circumstances as Yugoslavia
9 Q. Now, I'd like to go back to the statement that was made in this
10 report, Mr. Hansen, P1287.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. ...
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm going too fast.
13 JUDGE ORIE: This was not an invitation to stop completely,
14 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: All right. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Hansen, based on the original text of the interview and on
17 the excerpt here that is taken out of the interview in this report, you
18 would agree with me, would you not, that the statement that the
19 standpoint over property rights of Croatian Serbs stating there are no
20 rules here does not mean that in any way, shape, or form, the interview
21 stated that Croatian Serbs would have their property confiscated or
22 uncompensated; correct?
23 A. I would like to say that that ECMM report that you refer to is a
24 weekly assessment issued by the ECMM headquarters. An assessment at this
25 point is a report that would reflect over actual reports, daily reports,
1 from the preceding week, and, as such, I have no stake at all in that
3 Q. I understand that, Mr. Hansen. My question to you is, since this
4 report has been tendered through you, as a witness, would you agree with
5 me, based on your reading of what was quoted in the ECMM report and what
6 Mr. Seks actually said is taken completely out of context?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
8 MR. HEDARALY: The mere fact that the document was tendered
9 through Mr. Hansen does not mean that he can necessarily provide factual
10 information about it. So in that respect I would object to
11 Mr. Kuzmanovic's question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think as a matter of fact, that
13 Mr. Kuzmanovic is seeking any factual information. He is just seeking
14 from this witness an opinion, an opinion about whether what is in the
15 ECMM report is supported by the text of the interview itself.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's correct.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Which is, by the way, a question which, of course,
18 could be answered by the Chamber as well.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: True, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But if you want to -- although it's a witness of
21 fact who has clearly stated several times that sometimes that he did not
22 observe matters himself or that he wasn't the author of the report, and
23 since we had heard Mr. Hedaraly does not object against seeking an
24 opinion of this witness, I won't stop you, but ...
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Hansen, you've heard me and you've read the version that I
2 have read to you and you have seen what was in the ECMM memory report.
3 You would agree with me, would you not, from your reading of both what I
4 read to you and what you have read in the ECMM report that Mr. Seks'
5 statement is taken completely out of context?
6 A. There is a discrepancy between the two texts, yes.
7 Q. With respect to the earlier paragraph, in 1289, if could I please
8 go back to -- I'm sorry, 1287.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Mr. Registrar, I'm going to be flipping back and
10 forth between 1287 and this 3D document, just so you know.
11 If we could go back to that same page R026-5902 of P1287.
12 Q. If we look at the top of this page where the paragraph begins:
13 "Statements ..."
14 And I'll read to that you, Mr. Hansen:
15 "Statements from high-ranking Croatian politicians of late have
16 demonstrated that in the aftermath of Operation Storm, there appear to be
17 no indications of moderation of Croatian politics. In fact, on the
18 contrary, the Hawks within the Sabor seem to be taking advantage of the
19 current international attention in order to promote the image that
21 balance. President Tudjman's claim of 'an eye for an eye' as
22 justification of the appalling destruction of Serb property in the former
23 Sectors North and South being just one example of this."
24 I'd like to go back to the 3D document, 3D01-0827.
25 In this particular first page of this interview, the preface of
1 the interview, the second paragraph talks about the inventories of
2 Hawkism and describes in the third line Mr. Seks as a hawk. And nowhere
3 in this particular document or in this particular interview is there
4 anywhere a quote from President Tudjman claiming "a eye for an eye" as
5 any kind of a justification.
6 Now, can you tell me, Mr. Hansen, where the source of this claim
7 that President Tudjman justified anything as a eye for an eye?
8 A. No, I cannot. And, again, it's not my report, it's not my
9 wording. I have no reference to this at all. [Indiscernible] by the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, I urged Mr. Kehoe to stay within his
12 time-limits. You are now almost 20 minutes. You are you over that.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I have one further question or set of questions
14 relating to part of the interview, and I'm done, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please try to wrap up as quickly as possible.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.
17 Q. Staying with this document --
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, as long as have it, I might as
19 well tender it right now. I'm still going to be using it, but I will
20 tender it for the moment, since I'm going to be going back and forth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No objections from the Prosecution, Mr. Hedaraly.
22 Then, Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be given
24 exhibit number D1275. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to page 2 of the English, and we
2 can stay with page 1 of the B/C/S.
3 Q. The question at the top of the page relates to a discussion
4 regarding, at the time Serbian President Milosevic.
5 "Question: Does that mean that the Serbian president was left
6 only with Bosnia
7 "Answer: Exclusively. Milosevic is in a pretty unenviable
8 situation. He is in a situation to mark Karadzic's option as hazardous
9 in case that the Bosnian leader does not accept the plan of the contact
10 group. On the other side, keeping Karadzic's Serbian republic alive is
11 the only way to evade Milosevic's complete defeat. He must force
12 Karadzic to accept the plan of the contact group, because he ensures a
13 territorial entirety that would be connected to Serbia. A modified
14 American plan is completed in a way.
15 "Question: If that was completed, what would be the consequences
16 for Croatia
17 "Answer: The consequences would be that the stability and safety
18 would be ensured of the most of the national area of Croats in Bosnia
19 the area that are shared with the Muslims. Safety of those areas and
20 nations would be guaranteed, especially because the Federation has to
21 rely on Croatia
22 plan, Croatia
23 strategically protect the longest and the most vulnerable border."
24 Now, Mr. Hansen, if we could go back to P1287.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: The same page we were on before, Mr. Registrar.
1 Second page, please.
2 If we can go down about two thirds -- a little more than halfway
3 down where it says: "Confederal links between the confederation and
5 The sentence starts: "Seks said ..."
6 There we go, yes, thank you. If we could highlight that
7 paragraph, please, bottom half of that paragraph.
8 Now, in this particular portion of the ECMM report, taken out of
9 the article, the report says:
10 "Seks said that the Federation 'must entirely rely on confederate
11 relations and links (to Croatia
12 'the stability and security of the Croats in Bosnia and the territories
13 which the Croats shared with Muslims.' These comments clearly
14 demonstrate Croatia
15 zone and the realisation of a 'greater Croatia.'"
16 Now, Mr. Hansen, you would agree with me based on this report and
17 in comparison to the actual interview, there's absolutely nothing in
18 Mr. Seks's answer that says anything about a greater Croatia; correct.
19 A. Correct.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you for the extra time, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hansen, you will now be cross-examined by
24 Mr. Kehoe. Mr. Kehoe is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Hansen, by the way.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hansen.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. It's a pleasure to meet you, sir. I will do my best to move
6 through this as quickly as possible so you can get on your way.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Q. I'd just like to touch on a couple of things. First, the issue
9 of the evacuation on the 4th that you referred to on page 2 of your
11 Mr. Hansen, prior to the -- prior to Operation Storm, were you
12 aware of plans by the RSK for evacuations?
13 A. No, I was not aware of such plans.
14 Q. You mean nobody had told you that they were practicing
15 evacuations or that teams had been set up to make sure that there was
16 fuel and transportation for evacuations?
17 A. No. I was not aware of that.
18 Q. You were aware, however, that people actually wanted to leave the
19 area, let's just say in late July of 1995?
20 A. Yeah. And -- and families of people who were working with us
21 left in -- in the late July days.
22 Q. And did you see quite a few people leave in the late July days,
24 A. No. I was aware of the immediate relatives to -- to staff
25 working with us.
1 Q. Now on the 4th of August, and if we can go to P592, and I'm
2 talking about the afternoon of the 4th of August. We're just going to
3 talk a little bit about this evacuation.
4 MR. HEDARALY: Sorry, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
6 MR. HEDARALY: I don't want to interject too quickly. I'm going
7 to let counsel ask questions, but I'm just starting to get a bit
8 concerned because the witness just stated that he knew absolutely about
9 the evacuation on the 4th, so I'm --
10 MR. MISETIC: Excuse me.
11 MR. HEDARALY: If I could --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, may finish what he says.
13 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, having received the list of documents that
14 Mr. Kehoe intends to use, many of the exhibits relate to evacuation the
15 video, the plans are there, so I just am wondering if it is going to be
16 an exercise in going through these documents and educating the witness on
17 something he has no knowledge about.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, as all counsel is aware, that witnesses
19 are not here to learn new things but to tell us what they know, and that
20 is I think already clearly demonstrated by you, Mr. Hansen, when you knew
21 something, you told us; and when you apparently did not know something,
22 you told that as well.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. I direct your attention to this note which was done by a member
1 of the UN Sector South staff concerning a meeting with the ARSK
2 leadership. And you note in your diary at page 2 that there had been a
3 meeting between a UN and the RSK General, and the discussion was the
5 Do you know who this ECMM person is that is listed in the first
7 A. No.
8 Q. I'm sorry, sir, no?
9 A. No, I don't remember the -- a person taking part in that meeting.
10 Q. And how about this, there is an designation towards the end of
11 that paragraph, that notes the ARSK chief of residence evacuation. Did
12 you know who that was?
13 A. No. I'm afraid not.
14 Q. Okay, sir. Let us turn to D182. This is another note by a
15 Colonel Ratsouk of the meeting at the -- with the ARSK. Excuse me, the
16 RSK authorities.
17 As this comes up, Mr. Hansen, you'll note it says, 8 July 1995
18 the parties have agreed, but it's actually the 4th of August, 1995, so
19 don't be thrown off by that wrong date.
20 I'm interested in the centre because this thereby plays back into
21 your diary. This -- and generally talks about the meeting with
22 Kosta Novakovic. The middle paragraph notes that the RSK authorities
23 have requested UN assistance in organizing and providing transport for
24 such evacuation. RSK initial calculation shows that UN will need to
25 provide for these refugees transportation around 70.000 litres of fuel,
1 and 450.000 trucks [sic]. Excuse me, 450 trucks. That's a lot of
2 trucks, 450.000. 450 trucks, excuse me.
3 "RSK propose one main road from Knin to Padjene, Otric, Srb,
4 Martin Brod, Bosanski Petrovac, Banja Luka."
5 Now, sir, you in your diary learned about this meeting, and you
6 also learned at that meeting that the plan was to go to Bosnia; isn't
7 that right, sir?
8 MR. HEDARALY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. He said that he learned
9 at the meeting. I think he testified that he wasn't at the meeting.
10 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... I also heard you say --
12 MR. KEHOE: And if I misspoke, I may have been --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Please proceed.
14 MR. KEHOE:
15 Q. You learned about this meeting, and you learned that the RSK was
16 going to evacuate their people to Bosnia, didn't you?
17 A. Again, I was -- I was not taking part in the meeting, and today I
18 -- I don't recall being informed -- or what I was informed about
19 following the meeting.
20 Q. Well, you noted in your diary that you were going to drive with
21 them to Drvar in Bosnia
22 A. I think that was -- sir, that was following the -- the
23 commencement of the operation at a time when -- when civilians were
24 gathering in front of the -- of the main gate to the barracks.
25 Q. So at -- sorry?
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Maybe we are talking past each other, and I am referring to the
4 meeting that you talk about in your diary, where you note on page 2 that:
5 "There has just been a meeting between the UN and the RSK
6 General. The aim now is to evacuate the population from the larger towns
7 throughout Sector South."
8 A. Okay.
9 MR. HEDARALY: I -- Your Honour, I think it may be helpful if the
10 witness could look at his diary, that page. It's not up on the screen.
11 MR. KEHOE: Certainly.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps for to us look at -- on the screen.
13 MR. KEHOE: Sorry, Mr. President, it's tab 21 at P -- it's -- the
14 exhibit is P1292, the second page.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. Now, sir, you learned after that meeting that the civilian
18 population was going to be evacuated. Is that right?
19 A. It stated here, yes.
20 Q. Do you recall this at all?
21 A. I recall that we were in some provisionary planning -- were
22 assigned different tasks, and obviously, I was assigned the task of
23 jumping on one of the -- on a vehicle in a convoy. And this planning, by
24 the way, never materialised.
25 Q. Do you recall, sir, that as part of the planning, the evacuation
1 convoy was going to go to Bosnia
2 A. Well, it's an entry here, I cannot -- I have no further comment
3 to the entry in the diary.
4 Q. Does the answer reflect that it was going to Bosnia?
5 A. I really don't know, apart from what is stated here.
6 Q. Okay. Now, you also referred, and I'm not sure, frankly, if it
7 was on your direct this morning or cross-examination with one of my
8 colleagues, but you do refer to it your comprehensive survey - and let me
9 get that - which is P1290 at page 5, page 2 of the actual document, that:
10 "In the evening the sector commander was called for a meeting
11 with ARSK in Knin. He asked to assist in evacuating the population by
12 supplying fuel and transportation."
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Do you see that, sir?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. "Shortly after the meeting it was advised by radio that the
17 civilian population in the Krajina should evacuate."
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. And just moving ahead to that same document, and we're talking
20 about -- should be page 16 or 19 as it is uploaded but 16 on the page
21 number top. Your interpreter told you that she was informed by her
22 boyfriend that there was going to be an and I quote your words "an
23 organised evacuation."
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Do you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yeah.
3 Does that accurately assess or assist your recollection that
4 there's a meeting, that the evacuation decision is made, and that a radio
5 broadcast when out and that the boyfriend had the idea that it was going
6 be an organised evacuation?
7 A. I think what we're talking about here is a lot of time --
8 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 A. The events here, yeah, have passed -- has passed, and I have
10 absolutely no reason to question my entries and reports or my own diary
11 at this time. We are just talking about 13 years somehow disappeared
12 between the events and our conversation.
13 Q. And, Mr. Hansen, I appreciate that, and, please, to the extent
14 that you can help us and answer the questions you can. If you don't
15 recall other than the entries, then just let us know. Okay. I don't
16 want to make this an exercise in too much difficulty for you.
17 A. Thank you.
18 Q. Now on a separate note with regard to --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
20 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Mr. President.
21 Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. On a separate note, independent of the residents that heard the
23 radio report, I just would like to note for you out on page 18 of your
24 comprehensive report, which is, I think, page 21 as it's uploaded but
25 page 18 on the top of the document itself. In the second -- first full
1 paragraph, starting with: "Some of the people ..."
2 If we go down two sentences:
3 "When soldiers found out that they were alone on the front line,
4 without any backup or any support from the high - it should be 'rang'
5 [sic] officers; I suppose it means 'ranking' officers - without
6 communication means, they just decided on their own to pull out."
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. "Then they informed people in the villages close to the positions
9 about withdrawal and whoever wanted to join them were welcome [sic]."
10 So that was based on, I take it, your discussions with people at
11 the time. There was yet another arm of evacuation that the soldiers took
12 people with them that were near the front line.
13 A. Your quotation is from -- taken from a testimony issued by my
14 interpreters. It is not my text. But what she is informing is that --
15 there that soldiers were somehow left at the front line and with the
16 command structure disappearing.
17 Q. And then --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
19 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Mr. President. Yes.
20 Q. And I would like to show you a couple of documents, and it will
21 end in an ECMM report. But just following up on your interpreter, you
22 wrote the report based on what the interpreter told you, believing that
23 she was a dependable source. Is that right?
24 A. It's true.
25 Q. Now, if we can just turn to page -- excuse me, P71, 80 in the
1 English, and page 43 in the B/C/S.
2 And this is an operational diary for the Split Military District.
3 So -- an HV operational diary. If we go to page 80 in the English and 43
4 in the B/C/S, on the right-hand column. And I want to show you at line
5 -- time is 1330 on the 4th: "Enemy lines broken, enemy chaotically
6 running away."
7 1445: "Seize Badanj and Visibaba, one tank reported." I will
8 tell you that the evidence is that those are features that are up on the
10 And just mindful of this time, 1330 to 1445 -- or just 1445, I
11 would like to turn your attention to D137.
12 Now, this is an evacuation order signed by President Martic in
13 Knin on the 4th of August, 1995, at 1645.
14 My first question is did you know that Martic was in Knin on the
15 4th of August?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And were you aware, were you made aware at any point that he
18 signed an evacuation order at 1645?
19 A. No, I was not aware that he signed, but I was aware of a radio
21 Q. Okay. Now, did ECMM -- let me show you a series of documents.
22 And first it's -- I'm not sure if this is -- this is -- I wanted to go
23 into the level of how ECMM handled this. 65 ter 710, it may very well be
24 a document that counsel has -- it's not -- it's 65 ter 710. It's a
25 weekly assessment for -- 17010 [sic], that's right.
1 I'm sorry, 65 ter 7010.
2 I realize this is a weekly assessment out of Zagreb, sir, so --
3 but this is for the week 4 to 10, and if we could go to the second page.
4 And they're talking about Operation Storm throughout this, and in the
5 middle of the paragraph, during former Croatian displaced people it
6 notes: "It seems an evacuation order may have been issued."
7 Again, if we could just go into --
8 MR. KEHOE: If we could offer this into evidence, Mr. President.
9 65 ter 7010.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No objections by the Prosecution.
11 Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this documents shall be given
13 Exhibit D1276. Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D1276 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. KEHOE:
16 Q. And, Mr. Hansen, I am just going to go through a couple of
17 documents with so I can move through this quickly and then I can ask you
18 questions, as opposed to doing it seriatim.
19 The next one is 65 ter 4115 which is a daily monitoring report
20 for 21 August 1995
21 MR. HEDARALY: This one is actually P1297 MFI. It's one of the
22 bar table documents.
23 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, counsel.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that there is no objection against --
25 MR. KEHOE: No objection to the admission, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Same for the other Defence teams which means already
2 that P1297 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. And going -- this is -- you can see the front sheet of this being
5 a monitoring report for 21 August --
6 MR. KEHOE: That's not the front sheet there. 65 ter 4115.
7 That's it. And if we could go to the last page of this. Federal
8 Republic of Yugoslavia
9 here, Mr. Hansen?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. According to media sources, the Krajina Serb minister of foreign
12 affairs, Mr. Vojinovic stated on 20 August that the order for the
13 evacuation of civilians from Knin had been issued by Krajina Serb
14 President, Martic. Mr. Vojinovic also said that both Mr. Martic and the
15 Krajina Serb army commander General Mrksic had denied issuing such an
16 order at last week's session of the Krajina -- excuse me, of the Krajina
18 And let me just go into one last document, and this would be P798
19 which is again a ECMM report of mission -- report by head of mission for
20 15 August 1995
21 You can take a look at the front sheet, and I'm actually
22 interested in page 3. It's P798 at page 3.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me. I apologise, it's D798. I have written
25 in the outline P and it's actually D. Apologies.
1 And if we could go to the second page at the top.
2 Q. Do you need to see the front page again, Mr. Hansen?
3 A. No, it's okay.
4 Q. And you see that -- that -- actually, it's the third page, if we
6 MR. KEHOE: If we can go to the third page.
7 Q. Talking about the people leaving:
8 "Their departure seems to be final, but Krajina authorities, and
9 particularly, President Martic encouraged their citizens to leave."
10 Now you were getting quite a bit of information that this was the
11 evacuation that was ordered by the RSK, and they had no intentions of
12 staying in the Krajina once the HV began the attack. Isn't that right?
13 A. That is right.
14 Q. Okay. And let's go to P889, and this is a sitrep, a weekly
15 sitrep, of the 13th of August, 1995. Just in that summary at the top.
16 In here you call this a -- I trust that you didn't write this, but in
17 this, this is a called at the top a -- "the largest voluntary ethnic
18 cleansing during the entire Balkan conflict." Do you see that?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And I think you talked about that during your discussions with
21 Mr. Kuzmanovic, and it is likewise in -- I'm not sure. If I may ...
22 P1289, which is a sitrep of the 12th of September, 1995, that discussions
23 the meeting with the Hungarian ambassador Cermati that was talked about
24 before. If we go to -- just note in the one -- first paragraph that
25 Mr. Cermati is meeting with you in Knin, and he goes to the bottom of the
1 page where he notes the that:
2 "Why did the Serbs flee in front of the Croatian army? He called
3 it self-ethnic cleansing."
4 Now this whole idea of self-ethnic cleansing, I mean, you use it,
5 the Hungarian ambassador uses it, there -- as we go through the ECMM
6 reports it's -- has comments that the evacuation was ordered by
7 President Martic. I mean, as you sit here, Mr. Hansen, have you
8 concluded that that evacuation was a voluntarily evacuation that was done
9 at the behest of the leaders of the Republic of the Serb Krajina?
10 A. It certainly comes across as an appeal from -- from the president
11 to the population, that an evacuation should take place.
12 Q. Now --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, Mr. Hansen, you say it certainly
14 comes across. Is that -- are you interpreting the information you now
15 receive and -- or are you referring to what came to your mind at the
16 time, in addition to what we find in the reports?
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, what I know is that there was a radio
18 broadcast in the afternoon of the 4th.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: And any additional information is new to me.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And from what I understand, you say doesn't
22 contradict what my opinion was at the time, based on this information
23 about the radio programme.
24 THE WITNESS: That is true, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to invite to you clearly distinguish
1 between what you remember from the time, what the conclusions were that
2 you made at the time, on the basis of the information you had at that
3 time, and -- because you're not in a position -- of course, you can read
4 or hear what is presented to you, but I would like it know very exactly
5 what is -- what's new to you, and what is, therefore, mainly a matter of
6 conclusions, which may be in line with, and then, of course, we'd like to
7 know, although we might be able even to establish that -- whether
8 something is contradicting.
9 Mr. Kehoe, would you also please try to make this possible for
10 the witness, to always clearly put to him what is the basis for the
11 answers he gives often to composite questions.
12 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Well, Mr. Hansen, you were obviously reading these ECMM reports
14 while you were down there, and you in fact gathered more information than
15 just the information you had about the radio report over time, didn't
17 A. We did, yes.
18 Q. Okay.
19 And in monitoring the other information you got from these other
20 sources, you concluded, did you not, that this evacuation was a
21 voluntarily evacuation ordered by the president, Milan Martic?
22 A. Well, I mean, from the following day in the morning and then
23 until the 7th, I think, we had no communication means, so, therefore, I
24 did not read any reports. We were then, at that time, relocated to the
1 Q. I'm talking about the weeks that follow when you had the
2 opportunity to --
3 A. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, then we started all reports.
4 Q. Is that that you got a better picture of the actual voluntary
5 nature this evacuation, by reading these reports?
6 A. I mean, it was not a subject that we were discussing at that
8 Q. Let's talk about some practical concerns about this evacuation.
9 And you were friends with your interpreter. Is that right?
10 A. Not personal friends. We had a working relationship.
11 Q. A working relationship. I didn't mean anything or than that,
12 sir, please, and pardon me if -- I don't mean that. Just -- just, you
14 And you advised her at the time when people were evacuating or
15 people thereafter were leaving and going to Serbia, you advised her to
16 stay. Now, why did you do that?
17 A. Well, my -- my assessment of the situation at that time was that
18 too many civilians had been victim to a political battle, if you like,
19 and I could see that a future as a refugee in Serbia would offer a bleak
20 future, whereas a presence here, where she was born and raised, would
21 offer a prospect for a life.
22 Q. Some years down the line you spoke to her about that decision
23 that she made to stay, didn't you?
24 A. That is true.
25 Q. And she thanked you for your advice, didn't she?
1 A. She did.
2 Q. Because she stayed?
3 A. She stayed, yeah.
4 Q. And faired and continued to life in the Knin area?
5 A. In Zadar, yes.
6 Q. In Croatia
7 A. Yes. Well, Knin is also Croatia
8 Q. Yeah, I'm sorry. That's right.
9 Let me ask you a couple of questions that we talked about, and
10 I'm shifting subjects here, sir. Let me go to some of the items talked
11 about by Mr. Hedaraly.
12 In P2146, which is a sitrep of the 7th of August, it notes that
13 you were speaking to a CALO, and we spoke about permission to go
14 monitoring team N2 area, and he informed us that before clearance from
15 General Gotovina, we are not allowed to accomplish our tasks.
16 Now, this is a time, sir. Was the place where N2 wanted to go,
17 was there troop movements? Was there any type of military activity,
18 given that it was the 7th of August?
19 A. At this point we are confined to the barracks, and what we could
20 see was military movement just outside the barracks.
21 Q. Well, I mean, I'm talking about N2. Did N2 want to go to an area
22 where there was military activity, or do you know?
23 A. We just wanted to pick up our typical work which was patrolling.
24 Q. But at the time of --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
1 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. At the time this was taking place, the 7th of August, there was
5 military activity going on, wasn't there?
6 A. Well, we know today, yes.
7 Q. Let's turn to P860 also it's in tab 6 of your book. Talk about
8 -- it's a sitrep of 10 August 1995
9 you. On page 2, it's 3(f). Excuse me, P830. Is that right? P830.
10 Again, this is the 10th of August. "Team Knin report a
11 continuing restriction of movement in trying to get to Benkovac and
12 Obrovac." This is in the second page in paragraph (f) at the top.
13 They were told by the policija -- "on the check-points they can
14 only get to these places with the written permission from General
16 Now at this date on the 10th, again, around Benkovac and Obrovac
17 were there troop movements? Were the HV doing anything militarily there
18 that -- that they wanted to prevent outsiders from coming in and out
19 while they were moving, or do you know?
20 A. I don't think so. For obvious reasons I'm not able to -- to
21 somehow verify any military activity, but we were for sure prevented from
22 going there.
23 Q. But you don't know --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
25 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Mr. President.
1 Q. I understand you were not allowed to go there, but you don't know
2 what the HV was doing in the area at that time, do you?
3 A. That is true.
4 Q. P1288.
5 This is a sitrep for 12 September 1995. Likewise, discuss with
6 Mr. Hedaraly in that first 2(b).
7 "As per order from the Croatian army Ministry of Defence only the
8 Generals Gotovina and Cermak can deal with the international organisation
10 Now when you got that information, you concluded, did you not,
11 that the Ministry of Defence only wanted the higher-ranking people to
12 talk to international organisations so that the Ministry of Defence would
13 speak with one voice. Isn't that what you concluded?
14 A. I think so, yes.
15 Q. Now this is the 12th of September, and I think you noted for us
16 in your -- one of your statements, if I may, this is P1284 at page 4,
17 that the only time you met General Gotovina was this meeting on the 20th
18 of September, 1995. Is that correct?
19 A. That's correct, sir.
20 Q. Okay. And when you met him -- by the way, did you try to meet
21 him before that or put written requests in to meet General Gotovina
22 before that, that were denied?
23 A. Not as far as I remember.
24 Q. And when you met him --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
1 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, again.
2 I know my time is somewhat limited. I try to get ahead of myself
3 too much. I apologise. I apologise to the interpreters.
4 Q. And you did know that -- that as of the 6th of August, 1995
5 -- that the -- the civilian authorities had taken over in Knin. You did
6 know that, did you not?
7 A. No, I did not know.
8 Q. Okay.
9 Now, I want to go through this sitrep just a bit. And this is
10 P895. And you talked about a number of issues. It's coming up right
12 A number of issues were discussed. Among them, the possibility
13 of ECMM to patrol at the Bosnian side of the border. "So far it is not
14 possible, and the General promised to inform us."
15 Did you know, Mr. Hansen, that there was ongoing military
16 activity between the HV, HVO, and the ABiH against the Bosnian Serbs and
17 the Krajina Serbs in Bosnia
18 A. Yes, we know. We knew.
19 Q. So it was surprise that General Gotovina didn't exactly want you
20 to come up at that particular time to go up to that front line area, was
22 A. We had been monitoring wartime events before, so I don't know if
23 it's a surprise or not.
24 Q. Okay. Asked about -- going back to the report, asked about the
25 ongoing looting, arson, and harassment, "The General's opinion is that
1 police has to control the situation, and Croatia is still a nation with
2 constitution" -- should be law and order. "... any person committing
3 crimes will be charged."
4 Now, in your discussion with him, he never gave you any
5 indication that anybody who committed a criminal act should -- should be
6 -- or they shouldn't be prosecuted, did he?
7 A. No, he did not.
8 Q. I mean, he -- he -- he told you that this was a civilian area,
9 and it was up to the police.
10 A. Yeah. Clearly there was a distinction between civilian and
11 military responsibility in his -- in his answer to -- to the question.
12 Q. Now, he noted for you, and this the area that -- that was the
13 discussed with Mr. Hedaraly. And it notes that:
14 "However, a war is always followed by disasters, and now things
15 are under control. The General has no objection for Serbs to live in
17 But he regards it as "a human feeling to hate an enemy who has
18 burned, looted, and expelled one's families."
19 Now, Mr. Hansen, this was a revenge element that you had
20 recognised in your comprehensive report as something that was pervasive
21 in the area. Isn't that right?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. And as a man, Mr. Hansen, who lived there and learned what
24 happened and saw what happened, I mean, you could understand what
25 General Gotovina was talking about when he said that people who had been
1 injured had a degree of revenge in their heart?
2 A. That is true.
3 Q. Let's just talk about that. Some of the instances that you talk
4 about, and this could very well be in evidence.
5 MR. KEHOE: 65 ter 2258. No. 65 ter 2258 is an ECMM report,
6 7 September 1995
7 Q. I'm not -- I'm not certain who wrote this, sir, so I mean, I know
8 you were there at the time.
9 But if -- this is an ECMM report. And if we can go to the second
10 page of this report.
11 A. Sorry, sir, it from the humanitarian officer.
12 Q. Okay, sir. So you had nothing to do with the report?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, let me just see if you know about it then -- which is --
15 it's a -- and if we could just look at the -- under the Donji Lepuri, a
16 former Croatian village in RSK, keeping 235 Croatian and 35 Serbian
18 "Humanitarian officer observed several Croatian families
19 repairing their houses. He met the former -- Mr. Juric Branco who told
20 that they are about 30 families rebuilding the farms. They had lived
21 since four years in the homes of their relatives in Zadar and go daily
22 from there to here. Their church is totally [sic] destroyed. The graves
23 were open, and the bones of the buried were thrown around. The houses
24 were looted and burnt in 1991/1992, and the cistern tanks poisoned (dead
25 animals and garbage thrown into). The electricity had been destroyed,
1 and they are waiting now for its reconstruction to be able to stay in the
3 Now realising, Mr. Hansen, that this is not yours, it's a
4 humanitarian officer, but this is it pretty much the emblematic of the
5 situation of the returning Serb Croats and what they had gone through.
6 Isn't that right?
7 A. The Croat population in the RSK were expelled back in 1991/1992.
8 That is correct.
9 Q. And they also suffered quite a bit at the hands of the Serbs
10 before --
11 A. That is true.
12 Q. During the expulsion, didn't they?
13 A. That is true.
14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we'd like to offer 65 ter
15 2258 into evidence.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
17 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, Mr. Hedaraly.
19 Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be given
21 Exhibit D1277. Thank you, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D1277 is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. KEHOE:
24 Q. And, Mr. Hansen, you, yourself, talked to people about this, and
25 I want to just chat with you just briefly about one of those incidents,
1 and going back to your diary which is P1290, at tab 21, at page 11 in the
2 hard copy, and it's for the 12th of August of 1995, where you talk about
3 going back to your old headquarters. Do you see that before you, sir?
4 Page --
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Page 11.
7 A. Oh, okay.
8 Q. It's D1292 [sic] is the exhibit. P. Excuse me P1292.
9 "We visited our old HQ. It has been visited again, and
10 everything that was removed was destroyed."
11 MR. HEDARALY: So sorry to interrupt. It's the wrong document on
12 the screen, just for the people that don't have the hard copy.
13 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much. I'm looking at P1292. P1292.
14 Apologies, page 11. At the top of that -- if we go to page 11 of that
15 document. Eleven in the English, in any event. That's it.
16 Q. Are you with me, Mr. Hansen?
17 A. I am.
18 Q. This is the 12th of August.
19 "We visited our old HQ. It has been visited again, and
20 everything that wasn't removed was destroyed. There was a visit while we
21 were there. A guy in uniform was scouring the building."
22 Now this guy was in what looked like a military uniform, wasn't
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And he clearly was not operating under orders doing what
1 he was doing at this locale, was he?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. "A guy in uniform was scouring the building. Of course, we told
4 him that he should get out, as this was ECMM property. After talking a
5 little while, we found out that our landlord, Sevco, had abused him with
6 a knife four years ago."
7 Now Sevco was a Serb, was he not?
8 A. He was a Serb.
9 Q. "We saw the scars on his fingers, back and stomach. At that time
10 he lived in Knin, and thus, had to flee. With the new situation he was
11 back for a little revenge. Sevco is already in Belgrade which means he
12 cannot get at him. Instead he ran amok a little with a hammer and was
13 planning to burn down the building down. Sevco will never use the
14 building again now as quite a lot of people are after him. Via his own
15 restaurants he was a smuggler and a fence for stolen goods. He dealt in
16 narcotics and was responsible for a lot of people being in prison. Not
17 one of God's best efforts."
18 Obviously, I'm just going through this.
19 "And then he came back to exact his revenge because, of course --
20 from what had happened to him previously."
21 But that is -- was your understanding?
22 A. Yeah. He was there on a -- on a personal revenge.
23 Q. But that was your understanding, sir, that that's the feeling
24 that General Gotovina was touching upon during your interview on the
25 20th, wasn't it?
1 A. Certainly this person had been a victim to the conduct of our
2 landlord. And whether you can sanction the feelings of revenge is a
3 different matter, and -- but absolutely, the psychology of being a victim
4 was a predominant feature at the time.
5 Q. I'm not saying sanctioning that conduct, sir, but you understand
7 A. That is true.
8 Q. Now, let me turn your attention to D799. This is -- we'll go
9 through this quite briefly, and D799 is a daily monitoring activity for
10 20 September.
11 MR. KEHOE: If we can go to the next page.
12 Q. This is an abbreviation of the conversation that you had with
13 General Gotovina.
14 MR. KEHOE: If you can scroll down just a bit on that page, in
15 the English a little bit more.
16 Q. It notes that the second-to-last paragraph, the commander of the
17 operative zone of Split
18 looting, and harassment must be stopped by the police." But he added in
19 regards "hatred towards an enemy who has burned, looted, and expelled
20 one's families as a normal human reaction."
21 Now, this was an abbreviation of your larger report, wasn't it?
22 A. Well, this is it not my report, but it may be contributions from
23 some of the other persons in the meeting.
24 MR. KEHOE: Well, let us turn to P893.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock and wondering
1 what would be a good moment for the break.
2 MR. KEHOE: We can just go now before we go into this document.
3 That's quite all right. Or if you want me it continue, it's up to you,
4 Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And any further adjustment, more time or less time
6 than expected?
7 MR. KEHOE: Can I just give you a reading of that when I -- after
8 the break, if that's possible?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will have a break, and we will resume
10 at 4.30.
11 --- Recess taken at 4.05 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.32 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.
15 Q. Now before we go into the next document which is P893,
16 Mr. Hansen, the daily reports that you do, those are the factual reports
17 as to what happened, aren't they?
18 A. They are.
19 Q. They are kind of the ground level from which everything else
21 A. Yeah, they feed into the system.
22 MR. KEHOE: If I can just show you P893.
23 Q. Now, this meeting that you went to with General Gotovina, you
24 went with Mr. Leschly, didn't you?
25 A. I did, yes.
1 Q. And what was his role at the time?
2 A. He was head of the -- what is it called? The RC Zagreb.
3 Q. That would be the Regional Centre in Zagreb?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And he would be your superior. Is that right?
6 A. Yes, he would.
7 Q. This is his report of RC Zagreb, 17 to 23 September 1995. And on
8 page 2 of this report at the bottom, it reflects Mr. Leschly's comments.
9 The bottom page -- of the page. If we can just scroll -- yeah.
10 Notes: "When Lieutenant-General Gotovina, commander of OZ Split
11 was asked if he shared Zadar Zupanja`s opinion about the need for a state
12 of emergency, in order ... to avoid the killings, lootings, and burnings,
13 his only remark was 'what killings?' After which he went into an attack
14 on the international community that had no right to 'moral slapping' of
16 Now, Mr. Hansen, this comment that Mr. Leschly puts in there
17 about "what killings," comments attributed to General Gotovina about
18 "what killings," and the next line, "no right to 'moral slapping' of
20 are they?
21 A. No, they are not.
22 Q. Okay. As you sit here, Mr. Hansen, those comments didn't happen
23 during that meeting, did they?
24 A. I -- I mean, it would be unfair to say yes or no because I simply
25 don't remember, and I certainly did not enter the phrases into my own
2 Q. And had General Gotovina launched into some criticism or question
3 that killings had taken place, that is a factual issue that you would
4 normally have included in your report, isn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now during the course of the time you were in ECMM, did you have
7 a reason to question the objectivity of Mr. Leschly, when dealing with
8 the Croatian side?
9 A. No. But for sure he had a -- a more colourful phrasing in his
10 reports than I did.
11 Q. Well, let me take it one step further. Did you have occasion to
12 question the objectivity of other ECMM report-writers during this period
13 of time?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. How about a guy by the name of Bent Jensen?
16 A. I know Bent, yes.
17 Q. Did you question his objectivity, sir?
18 A. I would call him closer to the edge, and that he, at times, came
19 across with preferences to one side of the conflict.
20 Q. Did you know, Mr. Hansen, that the RSK intelligence services were
21 trying to put people that work for the intelligence service into the ECMM
22 as interpreters.
23 A. Yeah, I think all sides did that.
24 Q. Were you likewise -- did you know they were trying to lie to the
25 ECMM people, monitors in order to ascribe to the Serb position? Were you
1 aware of that?
2 A. No. I don't have any particular recollection of that.
3 Q. Okay. Let me shift gears, and we're going go to Knin prior to
4 Operation Storm. And I'd like to talk to you about a couple of issues
5 that were raised by Mr. Hedaraly. And during direct examination you
6 noted that had you been to the ARSK northern barracks. Is that right?
7 A. That's true.
8 Q. And when was that?
9 A. I don't have any recollection of the precise dates, but we were
10 there, and -- in -- well, before the operation.
11 Q. Let's take it -- see if narrow it just a bit.
12 Were you there prior to Milan Martic declaring a state of war in
13 the RSK at the end of July 1995?
14 A. Yeah. I mean, my recollection of this is that we were there
15 before there was any -- anything developing in terms of -- of a major
17 So, yes, before the declaration of war.
18 Q. So if I can just take this one step further, Mr. Hansen. If you
19 came to the area in May of 1995, would you tell the Trial Chamber that
20 your meeting in -- no the northern bearings was earlier in time, in the
21 May, possibly early June time-frame?
22 A. Yeah, that would -- yes.
23 Q. Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Let me -- now when you went there, did you arrive
1 unannounced, or were you escorted by a member of the ARSK?
2 A. I think we never arrived unannounced.
3 Q. So you went with, for instance, an ARSK liaison officer?
4 A. We were appointed meetings, and we -- whenever we met authorities
5 no matter where, we always appointed meetings.
6 Q. Moving up to the time in -- prior to Operation Storm, in July,
7 August of 1995, were you aware that the northern barracks was the
8 headquarters for the 7th Krajina Corps of the army of the Republic of
9 Serb Krajina?
10 A. I think yes.
11 Q. Were you aware -- were you there around the 4th or 5th of August?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So you don't know what troops were garrisoned there at the time?
14 A. No, I wasn't.
15 Q. Let me show you 65 ter 2516, which is an ARSK document from the
16 7 Krajina corps command dated 27 July 1995.
17 If you scroll up, this is an order 27 July 1995 from a
18 Colonel Kozomara. If you just look at paragraph -- this is an order
19 given to various entities within the ARSK 7th corps.
20 "I hereby order -- collect people in SVK barracks (northern
21 barracks, Benkovac barracks) conscripts who have their wartime assignment
22 should be sent to their war units, and those who do not have a wartime
23 assignment should be kept in the barracks and deployed as decided by the
24 corps commander."
25 Do you know anything about conscripts being gathered in the
1 northern barracks towards the end of July?
2 A. No, I don't know.
3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we'd like to offer into
4 evidence 65 ter 2516.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No objection from the Prosecution.
6 Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be given
8 Exhibit D1278. Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D1278 is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. KEHOE:
11 Q. Let us turn to the Tvik factory. You noted for us during the
12 course of your discussions with Mr. Hedaraly that you had been at the
13 Tvik factory to conduct an economic survey of some fashion. Is that
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Okay. And approximately when was that?
17 A. Well, I went there on several occasions, in June and July and met
18 with the manager and his management team on each of the occasions.
19 Q. Now, you met with your management team -- excuse me the
20 management team. Do you recall the gentleman's name that you met with?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Let me show you a video, and I want to ask if you recognise any
23 of the individuals in this video.
24 MR. KEHOE: If we could, this would be D949. It's a RSK
25 television clip from the 3rd of September, 1994.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is it just to recognise persons?
2 MR. KEHOE: Just to recognise the person, but there is a question
3 at the end that -- with regard to the dialogue that -- or the commentary
4 that I would like to ask him about if he had a discussion about that
5 dialogue, so it's a twofold purpose. Recognition and also a basis of a
6 further question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 [Videotape played]
9 JUDGE ORIE: I have -- I have no French translation. Is
10 there ...
11 MR. KEHOE: The transcript was sent this morning, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think we have a standing procedure that
13 one of the interpreters --
14 I hear from the French booth that they have not received a
15 transcript of this video.
16 MR. KEHOE: My understanding from my court [sic] manager that a
17 transcript was e-mailed this morning.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then ...
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, it is suggested that you now immediately
21 send it by e-mail to the registrar who will then print it out for the
22 interpreters, and perhaps meanwhile we could deal with another subject
23 until this is all done.
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes. I believe it is it coming now, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but before it is printed and before it's
1 distributed, that takes a while.
2 MR. KEHOE: Okay.
3 Q. We'll go back to this film, Mr. Hansen.
4 Let me address you to a different topic, and that would be in
6 MR. KEHOE: Sorry, D950. Yeah.
7 Q. This is an information or document entitled "Information" from
8 the Ministry of Defence for the RSK dated 10 July 1995, and it's signed
9 by Mile Suput, the deputy minister, and its dates, as you said, 10 July,
10 and I'm just reading the first paragraph:
11 "Due to the urgent need of constructing lethal devices to be
12 launched from an earth-bound rocket launcher and given the capacity of
13 the Tvik factory, a Knin tool factory, we have allocated part of the
14 production of certain products in cooperation with the Banja Metal
15 factory, Dvor Na Uni to the aforementioned factory."
16 Now, were you ever informed in July 10th after that or before
17 that that the Tvik factory was assisting in making parts for lethal
18 devices to be launched from an earth bound-rocket launcher?
19 A. I was never informed about that.
20 Q. So your discussions with -- if they were in July or thereafter,
21 in your discussions with the manager, he didn't tell you about it, nor
22 did he tell you it was contemplated.
23 A. No.
24 MR. KEHOE: I think is transcript is down, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do not know. I was listening to the French
1 translation finishing your last words Mr. Kehoe. But apparently some
2 other matter has upset you.
3 MR. KEHOE: I think that the transcript was not --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Transcript was not running.
5 Yes, the transcript is not running -- do we have any -- let me
6 see whether it's just the transcript. No, we have -- the transcript is
7 not running on --
8 MR. KEHOE: LiveNote.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... LiveNote. I
10 suggest that we proceed as we did before; that is, that we will continue,
11 that we focus on the running transcript, and as soon as it brings us into
12 problems, that we'll then stop. And that mean meanwhile, we ask the
13 technicians to see whether we can get LiveNote running on the other
14 system --
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... as well. Then we
17 could proceed.
18 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I think we're ready to go back to the
19 video, if I'm not mistaken which would be D949.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Before we do so, Mr. Kehoe, you put it to the witness whether he
22 was aware that the Tvik factory was assisting in, et cetera, et cetera,
23 which suggests that what we find in this document, which is already in
24 evidence, of the 10th of July, that allocation means that it is all
25 functioning already, which at least I have difficulties in understanding
1 whether this is preparing for what has to happen. There are -- proposals
2 are mentioned. So that is not entirely clear for me that the document
3 tells us what you told the witness tells us, and I just want you to be
4 aware that I'm still struggling with the document rather than being able
5 to able to repeat what you said what it actually says.
6 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, and I have certainly read that
7 into it, but maybe I just quote the actual document itself and --
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
9 MR. KEHOE: Yes. That would be probably are more expeditious.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You have asked the question whether he was informed,
11 and then you included another element that it was assisting, or that it
12 was ever -- I think you said a visit, or --
13 MR. KEHOE: Discussed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Discussed.
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That seems to follow at least from the text of
17 that document, so there I have no doubt in following you.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. KEHOE: If I can make this question as accurate as possible,
20 and let me go back to the document.
21 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness doesn't know anything about it, and
22 then, of course, and it appears that what he told us, that he had no
23 idea, then of course to take him through the documents and to do the
24 exegesis which, of course, the Chamber will have to do, but not
25 necessarily a witness who doesn't know anything about it. Unless,
1 Mr. Hansen, it's one of your hobbies in your spare time, but ...
2 Let's proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE: Yes. Let's go back to the video. And again this is
4 on the 3rd of September 1994, and I recognise that you weren't there.
5 It's D949, if we can.
6 [Videotape played]
7 "Speaker: Despite the four years of war and the imposed embargo,
8 the state owned company Tvik from Knin has begun successfully resisting
9 any hardship. The commander of the Serb army of the Krajina,
10 Major-General Milan Celeketic, visited this company today along with his
12 "Reporter: As part of his regular activities of visiting
13 commercial companies, the SVK commander Major-General Milan Celeketic
14 accompanied by his logistics assistant Major-General Mrksic Bjelanovic
15 and Colonel Dusan Smiljanic visited this morning the state owned company,
16 the screw factory Tvik in Knin. While talking to the manager of this
17 company, Mr. Jugslav Pavlovic, the commander was informed about the
18 difficulties Tvik has been faced with under the conditions of war and the
19 blockade on the international market.
20 At the time of the war broke out, the Tvik factory had 3300
21 employees. This number was reduced to 2300 employees today of which more
22 than 1.000 are conscript. Still, Tvik manages to fulfil any obligations
23 towards the employees, the workers waiting to reassume their workplace
24 and the conscripts. 50 per cent of the this company's production was
25 designated for export, but today, it offers the cheapest product on the
1 Yugoslav market. Mr. Pavlovic, the manager of Tvik, has assured the
2 visitors that once the borders are reopened and export is possible again,
3 this company could reassume regular business operations.
4 General Celeketic and Mr. Pavlovic also discussed the military production
5 programme in Tvik. After that, the commander and his associates visited
6 the production facilities of this extremely important company."
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Mr. Hansen, the gentleman at the Tvik factory that you went to
9 talk about this economic survey, did you see him on this video at all?
10 A. I don't remember his appearance.
11 Q. Do you recall -- you don't recall his name?
12 A. No.
13 Q. There is a line in the -- this production, and again I understand
14 it is September 1994 which reported that General Celeketic and
15 Mr. Pavlovic also discussed the military production programme in Tvik.
16 With the person that you spoke to that -- did he ever tell you
17 that ever had been a military production programme at the Tvik factory?
18 A. No, on the contrary.
19 Q. What did he say on the contrary?
20 A. I said that it was an a nuts-and-bolts production that was halted
21 because of no access to markets.
22 Q. Let us -- and I'm going to try to move through some topics
23 briefly, Mr. Hansen, so if I'm going too fast --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the sake of the record and
25 the interpreters, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you are invited to slow down.
2 MR. KEHOE: My apologies to the Court and the interpreters.
3 Q. Mr. Hansen, when the shelling started at 5.00 a.m. in the
4 morning, all the civilians that you were aware of went down to the
5 basements of buildings, didn't they?
6 A. They did.
7 Q. Now, you were in your residence for a period of time, and then
8 you went over to the EU ECMM headquarters. Approximately what time was
10 A. Around 9.00ish.
11 Q. And you were there from 9.00 until when?
12 A. Until the afternoon hours when we were evacuated by UN vehicles.
13 Q. And approximately what time was that evacuation?
14 A. I think it's -- it's about 3.00. But it is entered in my diary.
15 Q. And from the time the shelling began until your evacuation by UN,
16 those are the only two locations that you were in Knin. Is that right?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. And when you got into the APC about 5.00 -- excuse me, about 3.00
19 you drove to UN Sector South, right?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. And while you were driving in this APC, you couldn't see
22 anything, could you?
23 A. I could not.
24 Q. I mean, I guess other than the feet of the people who were
25 driving the APC
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. Did you leave any ECMM people behind when you got in the APC?
3 A. Affirmative. Yes, we did.
4 Q. And who did you leave behind?
5 A. I think it was logistics staff.
6 Q. Do you recall a name?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. Let me direct your attention to your diary, and this is 1292 at
9 tab 21, the first page. And it's, like, four paragraphs down.
10 Do you see the paragraph starts: "The peace negotiations ..."?
11 A. Well, it's --
12 Q. You can go to the hard copy if you want. I don't know if is
13 easier. It's tab 21 in --
14 A. It's coming now.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. KEHOE: If we can just scroll down that a little bit.
17 Q. You see that second-to-last paragraph there, "The peace
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Okay. And it says:
21 "How things look in the town, we don't know. A patrol attempted
22 to reach the Ministry of Defence but was stopped by hysterical, angry
24 Now you were not on that patrol, were you?
25 A. No, I was not.
1 Q. Do you know who was?
2 A. No, I didn't. I do not, no.
3 Q. I mean -- whoever was on that patrol came back and informed you
4 that they had run into hysterical and angry soldiers. Is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Let me show you another report, if I can, for the 5th, on D334.
7 MR. KEHOE: If we could -- this is a sitrep of 12.45 on the 5th.
8 If we can turn down to point 6.
9 Q. The HV soldiers -- this is after the HV enters.
10 "HV soldiers appear to professional and are treating the civilian
11 population fairly. I'm not so sure about any soldiers they meet on their
12 way through town, I saw three bodies that were not there on the way out.
13 All of these were ARSK soldiers."
14 I'd like you to compare that, sir, to Exhibit P1299, which is a
15 report from the 7th of August, 1995. And if we could scroll down,
16 talking about Knin, and this is on the 5th. As we move towards the --
17 you see that, says "a devastated Knin." You see that, Mr. Hansen?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. It says: "A devastated Knin with heavy infantry, and tank
20 fighting was going on. About 30 dead bodies were seen on the street."
21 Now, the report that we had from 12.45 the earlier day had three
22 bodies, and when a summary report is put together two days later on the
23 7th, it is 30 bodies.
24 A. Mm-hm.
25 Q. Can you account for that discrepancy, or is that accountable
1 because of some of the anecdotal stores you might have received?
2 A. I mean, I cannot verify this information, and it is not my
3 reporting, so -- so I would have no explanation to the inflation or to
4 the difference in the numbers.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you also note in your diary -- go back to page 3 of
6 your diary. Again, 1292 at tab 21.
7 MR. KEHOE: If we can go to the second page of that document.
8 I'm sorry, just the third page. This is all on the 5th. Just scroll up
9 a bit, sir. Just a bit, yeah. Okay.
10 Q. This is on the 5th, sir. And just going to that second
11 paragraph, it notes -- and the time entry here, sir, is -- you have 10.00
13 reference point. So there is a pause going on now. What is happening
14 now, we don't know, but we use the pause to get our three colleagues to
15 the HQ. It is risky driving through -- driving in the town, though. RSK
16 soldiers are gradually retreating to the centre of town. They shoot at
17 anything that moves, including us. They are panicky with nowhere to go."
18 Now, did you observe this from the UN Sector South headquarters,
19 that the RSK was moving towards the centre of town?
20 A. No, sir. I mean, I have -- I have no recollection of this.
21 Q. Well, would you -- would someone have told you that this was
22 going on?
23 A. I -- I have no comment.
24 Q. You just don't recall?
25 A. No.
1 Q. So if we talked further about the fighting that was going on in
2 Knin on the 5th, would you have any recollection?
3 A. I would not because I was simply not travelling at this point.
4 Q. Now, you note on this -- just to clear this up, if we go one page
5 back to the 10.00 entry, the beginning of the 10.00 entry. It's about
6 six lines down: "The real firing started at 5.00 this morning."
7 Do you see that, Mr. Hansen?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. "The town was being completely hammered till about 9.00 a.m.
10 then there was a pause before the shelling started again. The firing
11 appears to be coming from the south, from Drnis area, and there is now
12 direct fire."
13 Do you know if that direct fire was coming from the ARSK?
14 A. No. Today, I don't know.
15 Q. Now, just one last thing on this before we move on. You do know
16 that -- or do you know that the HV units came in Knin from the north, not
17 the south. Did you know that?
18 A. At this point, I don't think I knew.
19 Q. Okay, sir. Fair enough. I'd like to talk to you a couple of
20 things about some comments that you made in your statement beginning with
21 your statement in 1995 that -- I do believe that Mr. Hedaraly went
22 through with you, and that would be P1283 - thank you - on page 3, where
23 you talk about the -- the shelling of Knin.
24 Now, when you gave your statement or during this time or
25 thereafter, did you realize what the situation, military situation, was
1 between the HV/HVO forces and the joint Serb forces in Bihac? Did you
2 have a knowledge about that?
3 A. In the early days of August, we did not have any knowledge of
5 Q. Okay. So when you were looking at what was trying to be
6 accomplished through Operation Storm, you -- that whole fact or what was
7 going on with Bihac was not part of the equation. Is that what you are
9 A. That is true. That could not be observed in any way from where
10 we were.
11 Q. Well, I'm just talking about generally.
12 A. Mm-hm.
13 Q. Did you know that the Serbs were trying to take the Bihac pocket?
14 A. Well, the Bihac pocket is a story in its own right, and for sure,
15 before, there had been attempts to take the pocket.
16 Q. And did you --
17 A. But I have no recollection of -- of knowing at this particular
18 time that the Serbs were trying to take the pocket.
19 Q. Had they tried to take it in late July?
20 A. I cannot say, sir.
21 Q. Looking at Operation Storm itself, as you sit here now, did you
22 know what the breadth of Operation Storm was or how large an area it
24 A. I mean, it would be fair to assume that it was about liberating
25 the Serb-held territories of Croatia
1 Q. And the Serb-held territories in Croatia were in both Sector
2 North and Sector South, weren't they?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you understand that the attack in Operation Storm was an
5 attack that went on in both Sector North and Sector South?
6 A. Yes. Yes, we did.
7 Q. Did you likewise understand that the attack in Knin was an
8 attempt by the HV to neutralize the ARSK headquarters that was located in
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So -- and as a military man with military experience, sir?
12 A. Mm-hm.
13 Q. Even as a reserve officer, you have a degree of military
15 A. True.
16 Q. You realize that taking or neutralizing the ARSK headquarters in
17 Knin would jeopardize the entire ARSK operation throughout the Krajina?
18 A. Absolutely.
19 Q. Now, you likewise understand that this military operation was not
20 an attempt to destroy Knin but to -- and the Krajina but to reintegrate
21 it into Croatia
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. Now, if we go to it item in here, you recognise that the damage
24 from the shelling was minor?
25 A. True.
1 Q. And you note in your document that - if I can grab this here -
2 what could be assessed to be -- this is on the fourth paragraph on page
3 3: "What could be assessed to be military targets, the ARSK
4 headquarters, and the military bakery where it was not targeted."
5 Do you mean barracks there?
6 A. I think it was a bakery.
7 Q. Where was the bakery; do you know?
8 A. Somewhere in downtown Knin. I mean, it was a facility that
9 produced, well, bread for the soldiers.
10 Q. So as you sit here you have no knowledge that the headquarters of
11 the ARSK was hit at 5.00 in the morning?
12 A. That is true.
13 Q. Do you likewise know that the northern barracks and Senjak
14 barracks were hit?
15 A. At this point in time, I'm not sure that I know it was not hit.
16 Q. Are you saying you don't know one way or the other?
17 A. I don't know if -- if it was hit, I was still not having any -- I
18 could not go anywhere.
19 Q. Did you learn thereafter that the Senjak barracks, the northern
20 barracks, and the ARSK headquarters were all hit in the early morning
21 hours of the 4th?
22 A. Well, after we were passing by, but see -- did not from where I
23 was see any noticeable damage.
24 Q. Did you go in?
25 A. No, we did not.
1 Q. Did you know, sir, that -- let me withdraw that.
2 As a man with a military background, you would understand that an
3 attacking force would attempt to neutralize the communication
4 capabilities of the ARSK, would they not?
5 A. They would, yes.
6 Q. Do you know whether the HV, beginning on the morning of the 4th,
7 directed their artillery towards the communication capabilities for the
9 A. No, I have -- I don't know, but it was -- I mean, if I was to
10 assume, I would certainly assume that they did.
11 Q. In page 4 of your diary, which is the -- P1292, page 4, the third
12 paragraph down, Sandra being your interpreter. You see: "Tells me
14 "Sandra tells me about a friend, soldier friend, who was on the
15 front line and couldn't understand why he wasn't getting any information
17 When she told you that, did you take that to mean, sir, that
18 there was in some fashion, a disruption of communication between soldiers
19 in the front line and some type of command structure?
20 A. I took that as a -- as an indication of a total breakdown of --
21 of both communication and line of authority.
22 Q. As you sit here today and you look at the attack on Knin, and
23 what you learned, you now recognise, do you not, that this was more than
24 any -- that this was a direct attack on a city that was subsequently
25 followed by soldiers coming in and taking the area?
1 A. True.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, could we ask the witness what he learned
3 today and to what extent he is able to verify the accuracy of what has
4 been put to him. For example, did he learn that there were three bodies
5 or 30 bodies before we ask him an impression about --
6 MR. KEHOE: Okay.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Because I'm not insisting on it. I'm, of course, to
8 some extent, putting a footnote to your question because the witness is
9 here not to obtain new knowledge and information. What we could ask him
10 is whether what was put to him, which is not the same as what he learned,
11 and it's my understanding that learning means learning what had happened,
12 and that is, of course, a rather complex matter. But what was put to
13 him, whether that in any way changes the opinion he had formed on the
14 basis of his own observation on the assumption that was put to him is
15 reliable information.
16 Is that what you wanted to ask the witness?
17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, and ultimately, Mr. President -- and I will just
18 put to him one last document on this score which is D389, which is the
19 intelligence assessment by the ARSK.
20 Q. And this is -- just to show you, this is a report of the 4th of
21 August, 1995. And the third, fourth paragraph down:
22 "Knin was attacked from Livanjsko Polje from several directions,
23 and by the time this information was drafted, between 200 and 300 rounds
24 of different calibres impacted on the town. The first strike was carried
25 out on the building of the SVK General Staff, which suffered great
1 materiel damage with the fleet of vehicles almost completely destroyed.
2 Later the fire was transferred on the military barracks 1300 kaplara, the
3 Tvik factory, the railway intersection, residential buildings in the area
4 beneath the Knin fortress, et cetera."
5 Now, going back to Judge Orie's question, based on -- not only on
6 what you learned, but what you learned from the 4th on to today, as the
7 purpose of what happened during this attack, does that change your
8 opinion, sir, as to what the shelling -- the purpose of the shelling was
9 and the purpose of the attack on Knin on the 4th and 5th of August?
10 A. No. There is no difference in opinion.
11 Q. Let us shift subjects, sir. And I'd like to talk to you a little
12 bit looting that you discussed.
13 And going through the -- some of the items, and I'll just pick
14 out some items that we -- you talked about. And you talked about a
15 collection point next to the UN base. Do you recall that, sir?
16 A. I do recall that.
17 Q. And you also talked about the -- there being some looting going
18 on with the individual soldiers in town. Is that right?
19 A. That is right, sir.
20 Q. Now, let me show you P805.
21 You noted for us that you went out on the 7th of August. Is that
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. And we have a general situation at 2200 hours on the 7th, and it
25 notes that: "Knin is now calm but with soldiers from the 4th and 7th
1 Brigades still carrying out small-scale looting."
2 Is that what you saw, sir, this small-scale looting as is
3 reflected here by these soldiers?
4 A. I mean, we saw looting, and I would certainly -- with the wisdom
5 of hindsight, I would not call it small-scale.
6 Q. That's what was written at the time.
7 A. By the two authors, sir.
8 Q. Let's turn to the next page. 5(b). If we can go -- excuse me,
9 yeah, it's 5(b).
10 "In Knin area it seems as if random looting and destruction of
11 houses and property is about to reach a degree where it will get even
12 more difficult to restart normal life here."
13 Comment: "It is very unlikely that this is a deliberate policy
14 of the authorities. It is more likely that as front line, more
15 disciplined troops are moving out. The second-line soldiers are less
16 disciplined and more ready to grab what they can."
17 Now, again, that's an item that is done at the time by ECMM
18 monitors that were there. Now, did you write -- did you review this
19 report at the time?
20 A. No. This is -- this report is written by the two gentlemen
21 mentioned on the front page. And in a comment to -- to their assessment,
22 I would say that this is it probably a fair assessment at the time of
23 writing, which is on the 7th. And I would also subscribe to the
24 assessment about the front line combat soldiers being changed or replaced
25 by a different breed of soldiers.
1 Q. And that's as early as the 7th, according to this report?
2 A. True.
3 Q. I'd like to talk to you about the organisational structure that
4 you noted, and with the garage and trucks that were outside the UN
6 Now that you noted they were -- that various types of household
7 goods, et cetera, TV sets, et cetera, were being brought to that
9 A. That's truce.
10 Q. Now do you have, Mr. Hansen, whether those particular items were
11 being inventoried by the HV and put on a list?
12 A. I don't know, sir.
13 Q. Well, if you -- you don't know that.
14 Do you know whether the military police were seizing things and
15 likewise inventorying things that they seized?
16 A. I don't know, sir.
17 Q. And I ask you the same question for the civilian police. Do you
18 know if they were, in fact, taking items or seizing items at check-points
19 and putting them in -- in inventory?
20 A. I don't know, sir.
21 Q. Well, would you agree with me, sir, that knowledge about specific
22 facts in that regard would be important in a determination by you or
23 anyone else as to whether a person or group of people were looting or
25 A. I would say that the magnitude of -- of the looting would
1 somehow, in my assessment at least, exclude the production of an
2 inventory of merchandise being ferried out of the area.
3 Q. You say, sir, that because you have not seen an inventory; isn't
4 that right?
5 A. Because I find it unlikely that it was a managed and --
7 Q. I understand.
8 Now some of the -- you mention the going through Knin in town by
9 the soldiers. Some of the going through houses and towns is done by a
10 military in a clearing operation, isn't it?
11 A. It is, yeah.
12 Q. And that's a normal operation that a military or police entity
13 would do as they went through town?
14 A. Sure.
15 Q. Now, I'm going to shift gears but still stay on looting.
16 And I would like to talk to you about the waves. I mean, you
17 said initially there was regular combat troops, and then soldiers came
18 after that, and then civilians. And you noted for us that you believe
19 that the civilians didn't begin to come back until your return in
20 September. Is that right?
21 A. That was the first time I saw them, yes.
22 Q. Let's explore that a bit.
23 MR. KEHOE: If we can turn to P933.
24 Q. This is a sitrep of the 9th of August, 1995, in the -- right
25 above military situation about a quarter of the way down:
1 "It seems like Knin for the first time is becoming a big tourist
2 attraction, extensive traffic was reported on the main road between Knin
3 and Drnis."
4 So civilians were, in fact, coming to the area as early as the
5 9th, according to the ECMM reporting. Is that right?
6 A. That is it right, and that is even my own report.
7 Q. Let us turn to the next page.
8 "We saw the same development in Drnis. A lot of civilians are in
9 the city, and it seems they are looking for property that belonged to
10 them previously."
11 So, Mr. Hansen, what you're reporting is that civilians are there
12 on the 9th, and they believed that they have been victimised and that
13 property has been stolen, so they're going into other houses, such as
14 Serb houses, and taking back what is theirs. Is that an accurate
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
17 MR. HEDARALY: Objection. That mischaracterizes the document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take it, then, one by one.
19 Is your report about civilians that are there on the 9th,
20 Mr, Hansen?
21 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is your report about civilians that are there on the
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that is my report.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is the report about civilians that
1 believed that they had been victimised?
2 THE WITNESS: That is true, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And that their property was stolen?
4 THE WITNESS: My understanding of this paragraph is that they are
5 looking for property that belonged to them previously, property that may
6 have been destroyed or -- I don't really know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Their own property or property left behind by others
8 or ...
9 THE WITNESS: In this particular instance, it is property left
10 behind by others.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So when you were asked whether you reported about
12 property stolen, that you say it was -- perhaps was their property
13 stolen, but what they were taking back, might not have been their own.
14 Is that --
15 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
17 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Just staying with this, would this people who were taking
19 property that they believed belonged to them, or taking property that --
20 just to furnish their house that was empty, or both?
21 A. I mean, I have no method to -- to make a direct correlation
22 between a person and a property and establish ownership. And what we saw
23 as a general feature was that houses and apartments were broken into and
24 household items were removed.
25 Q. Let us turn to P1289, which is another sitrep that I believe is
1 yours, sir, from the 12th of September, 1995. And maybe we can put a
2 little bit more flesh on this.
3 MR. KEHOE: If we can go down to the end of paragraph 2. Right
4 there. Right above human rights monitoring.
5 "The readiness of the local authorities to receive DPs from the
6 coast and individuals visiting Knin moving into houses and furnishing
7 their new homes by looting neighbouring houses."
8 So just staying with that, that was part of this too. People
9 going and just looting an empty house next door and bringing it into
10 their house, be they displaced people, or whatever. Is that right?
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. And just going back with this, Mr. Hansen. These civilians came
13 back almost right after the end of Operation Storm, didn't they?
14 A. They did.
15 Q. Now, let us turn out attention to -- to some of the items
16 concerning the burning, and I would like to just go through a couple of
17 incidents with you about this. Because you -- you said some items --
18 some items with regard to this burning, you appear to say were organised.
19 And I would like to turn your attention to P933.
20 And P933, going to the military situation, and this is dated the
21 9th of August, 1995:
22 "In Biskupija five troops with a white Lada and a green Land
23 Rover were burning houses. It was obvious that they were surprised to
24 see us." Now, first of all, the Lada and the green Land Rover, did you
25 get a HV plate from this vehicle?
1 A. I would assume not, as it is not entered in the report.
2 Q. And these were --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. And these were five individuals that were dressed in camouflage
7 uniforms, weren't they?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Now, it notes in here that the -- "from the badges, we know they
10 belongings to Diverzantia, a special unit with skull insignia. The unit
11 is attached to the 7th Brigade."
12 Now, where did you get the information that this Diverzantia was
13 connected to the 7th Guards Brigade?
14 A. Today I have really no additional comment to -- to this
16 Q. I mean, did you ever come to learn, sir, that there is no unit or
17 section that is part of the HV that has a skull and cross bones or is
18 called Diverzantia?
19 A. I have learned that later, but at this the of writing, I was not
20 aware of that.
21 Q. So you now know that Diverzantia is not part of the HV?
22 A. I know now, yes.
23 Q. Now, was this a, like a paramilitary unit?
24 A. I don't know, sir.
25 Q. Okay.
1 Let me turn your attention to another entity -- another incident.
2 And that is this incident, I believe, that was discussed with
3 Mr. Hedaraly at P830, which is this incident in Kosovo.
4 This is a sitrep, P830 is a sitrep for 10 August 1995. If we go
5 to page 2, towards the bottom of page 2, if we can scroll down a bit. We
6 -- we have the reporting on this Kosovo incident: "In Kosovo six
7 uniformed soldiers were seen going from house to house setting fires."
8 You talked about that during the course of your testimony on
10 Now, if we look at P1290, which is your comprehensive report, you
11 report on this ...
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. KEHOE: And if we go to page 6 of this document.
14 If we can go -- just scroll down toward the bottom of the page.
15 Q. Now, in Kosovo -- do you see the bottom there, Mr. Hansen?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. You report: "Six uniformed HV soldiers were wearing no unit
18 sign. They were supported by HV pick-ups."
19 So what we have is a -- six individuals that were wearing
20 camouflage uniforms; right?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Other than the camouflage uniforms, there's no indication that
23 they were part of the HV or operating as part of an HV unit, to
24 accomplish a specific task, was there?
25 A. I cannot get that any closer.
1 Q. Well, the units that you saw out there, I mean we have six here,
2 there's six soldiers in this Kosovo entry. I mean, you never saw any
3 soldiers in groups larger than six doing anything like burning, did you?
4 A. That's true. They were always in small numbers.
5 Q. Okay. And you never saw that, while they were doing this, some
6 overall commander and some officer directing them to do A, B, and C, did
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Now, the next issue that we want to talk about just briefly,
10 and -- I mean, is -- when we look at this burning, I mean, you realize,
11 do you not -- and let me just give you a reference point. Let's go to
13 If we can to the second page under humanitarian/human rights
15 "In A, team Split
16 DP's association today. They were informed that there were 200.000
17 displaced people in Croatia
18 half would be returning home to the newly freed territories within the
19 next three months."
20 So, Mr. Hansen, what we're talking about is approximately 100.000
21 displaced people coming back to the Krajina. Isn't that right?
22 A. From the information here, yes.
23 Q. And they would -- these displaced people would be coming back to
24 not only the cities but to the countryside as well. Weren't they?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Well, prior to Operation Storm when you drove through the
2 Krajina, you saw scores of burnt out houses, didn't you?
3 A. True.
4 Q. And that was in the rural countryside as well as in and around
6 A. True.
7 Q. And you concluded, did you not, that these houses in the rural
8 countrysides that had been burnt prior to Operation Storm were Croat
10 A. True.
11 Q. So -- now based on that, as you sit here, Mr. Hansen, you can
12 conclude that at least some percentage of these displaced people that
13 were out at the coast, this 100.000, were going to come back to the
14 Krajina and some were going to live in the country side, weren't they?
15 A. True, true.
16 Q. Let me take you through a couple of these documents. And go to
17 P935. I'm going read you a couple of items together, and we can come to
18 one last conclusion.
19 P935 is a sitrep of 13th of August, 1995, of ECMM. If we can go
20 to this third page, bottom of the third page. Right before the end of
21 the page:
22 "Displaced people from hotels, caravan sites, along the coast,
23 and refugees from western Europe have been seeping back to visit their
24 original homes and some to stay [sic]. Representative of Split Zupanja
25 DP's association estimates that 100.000 DP's will return to the free
2 If we can turn to P2156. This is a document that was referred to
3 by Mr. Hedaraly. Page 3. I'm just going to go through these, reference
4 these, Mr. Hansen, so you can take a look at them, and I will ask you a
5 couple of questions in the interests of speed. This is a daily
6 monitoring report for 11/13th August. If we can go to page 3.
7 It notes in the centre of the page about how it is going to be a
8 staged return of displaced people back to the Krajina.
9 If we can go to P511. P511. This is 18 August. Sitrep of
10 18 August. If we go to the last page, economic and infrastructure.
11 "Today the rain and sheer lack of unburned houses meant that very
12 few fires were observed. The fields are still left with nobody working
13 in them. How the Croatians will harvest the crops is not yet known, and
14 it seems to become a large problem. Or will they just let it rot [sic]
15 in the fields? Will the DP become forced labour in the fields?"
16 Next one, P3 -- 937. This is a sitrep of the 20th of August,
18 If we can go to the last page of P937. Paragraph (d) there:
19 "DPs and refugees from Croatia and Europe
20 the area. However, no infrastructure and destroyed houses makes
21 immediate habitation impossible ..."
22 P812, first page is sitrep, 23 August 1995, and they're talking
23 about Benkovac.
24 MR. KEHOE: If we just scroll down a bit on that front page.
25 Q. "The plan for Benkovac," B being Benkovac, "is to serve as an
1 accommodation to DPs coming from the tourist areas. These will be
2 accommodated in tents, if necessary."
3 And the last one we'll talk about before we get into it, this
4 P953. And this is it a sitrep from 9 October 1995. If we go to the last
5 page. And interestingly it is an economic survey going back to the Tvik
6 factory. And there is discussions with the manager at Tvik, and then the
7 comment at the end: "Housing problem is paramount. Nobody will come to
8 work without this problem solved."
9 So we can go through more of these, Mr. Hansen, but do you see
10 what the problem is: There is burning of houses going on that you have
11 reported, and there's an inability to bring displaced people back into
12 the area because of the burnt houses, and they can't begin to work. Is
13 that right?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. And this is at a time when the Republic of Croatia
16 get the Krajina back on its feet economically and get the displaced
17 people away from the coast and back into their area. Isn't that right?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. Now, that was the overriding intent of the Republic of Croatia
20 wasn't it?
21 A. I would assume so.
22 Q. Now with that intent, you understand that permitting people to
23 burn these house would essentially cut the legs off that entire plan to
24 bring all those people back to the Krajina, wouldn't it?
25 A. I certainly follow your logic. What I'm -- I mean, I'm not in a
1 position to confirm that this logic was part of a plan.
2 Q. Well, let's take this one step further. We're talking about
3 that. Let's talk, just in one last area, about the entire assessment
4 that the burning of these houses is part of some effort to ensure that
5 Serbs don't come back. And it's sanctioned at the highest levels, and
6 you say that in your 2008 statement at paragraph 30.
7 Let us add yet another element to what we've just been talking
8 about, and that is the power vacuum that was taking place.
9 Now, my learned friend, Mr. Kuzmanovic, talked to you about an
10 individual sitrep - I don't think we need to go into it again - where the
11 HV moved so quickly it took the civilian authorities by surprise, and
12 they weren't quick enough to get there. Do you recall that?
13 A. I do.
14 MR. KEHOE: For the record that is P830.
15 Q. And putting the quickness aside, there would be some inherent
16 delay in getting set up, simply because the Republic of Croatia
17 been there for four years. Isn't that right?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. And likewise based on your assessment there, they had difficulty
20 getting police, enough police in the area, didn't they?
21 A. They did have that problem, yes.
22 Q. I mean, if we take a look at your comprehensive report and --
23 sorry, I'm missing a number here. Your comprehensive report, 1290, at
24 page 12.
25 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me. It should be page 9 of the document; page
1 12 on the upload.
2 Q. I mean, you note there that -- in the middle of the page that:
3 "The Croatian civilian police presence in areas outside the main
4 towns remains almost non-existent."
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Now that was because they didn't have enough police, wasn't it?
7 A. Well, I think there is no dispute that there was power vacuum at
8 this point in time.
9 Q. And the civilian authorities had to bring police that, when they
10 came to the area, had to ask ECMM monitors where things were, didn't
12 A. I -- I do not recall being asked that question from such a
14 Q. Let's go to the next page, then.
15 It should be page 10 in the document. You see, "On the same
16 day," you see the first full paragraph?
17 A. Yeah, I do.
18 Q. "On the same day UN CIVPOL had it's first joint patrol with the
19 Croatian police.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. "The two Croatian officers relied on UN CIVPOL to show them the
22 way since they are new to the area."
23 A. Fair. Very fair.
24 Q. So we had not enough police, and the police that there were,
25 didn't even know how to get around. And to add to the problems, if we go
1 back to the very beginning here and we talk to P830, in the political
2 matters that this is the 10th of August, when you had problems, when you
3 had issues that you needed to be discussed, look what you write on the
4 10th -- or the ECMM writes on 10th of August.
5 "Political matters: The political authorities of Knin have
6 still not moved in. There is no one to talk to."
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock, and I know that
9 after the break, that we need time for a few matters, and Mr. Hedaraly
10 needs time for re-examination. And you are fully aware of all that.
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
12 JUDGE ORIE: When can I expect you in the next five minutes to
13 wrap up and to --
14 MR. KEHOE: In the next five minutes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's my arithmetics, a simple one. 20 minutes
16 for the break. All those assisting us need some time as well.
17 Mr. Hedaraly said he would need a bit of time. Fortunately,
18 Mr. Cayley has taken care of some matters which may save some time.
19 There may be some questions from the Bench, and you said no problem in
20 concluding the testimony of this witness today, and we have 62 minutes
21 left, including the break.
22 MR. KEHOE: I will wrap up, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
24 MR. KEHOE:
25 Q. Mr. Hansen, you understand the dilemma in all of this. These
1 contradictory issues out there that can lead you to believe -- well, lead
2 you to conclude, not believe, sir, lead to you conclude, that with this
3 power vacuum and with criminal elements and with the revenge that you
4 talked about, that there was no intent by the Croatian authorities to
5 allow these crimes to take police, but that it simply took them a month
6 to six months for them to get up and going to stop it.
7 Isn't that as equally a plausible explanation of the things that
8 you saw?
9 A. I mean, I would answer that in the affirmative and -- and, I
10 mean, you can you look at that from that answer also.
11 Q. Mr. Hansen, thank you very much.
12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
14 MR. KEHOE: Can I just check one thing?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I would like to check one thing with you as
16 well. Please.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could I ask you perhaps during the break to
20 find where in paragraph 30 of the 2008 statement i find, as you put to
21 witness, that it was -- that the burning of these houses is part of some
22 effort to ensure that Serbs don't come back and that it is sanctioned at
23 the highest levels, and you say that in your 2008 statement.
24 I see -- I've read paragraph 30, and I see something of
25 condoning --
1 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ... [Microphone not
2 activated] ... as well as his comprehensive report.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's clear.
4 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
6 We'll have a break, and we will resume at 20 minutes past 6.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 6.00 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 6.22 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, any need to re-examination the
11 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please, then do so.
13 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:
15 Q. Good afternoon -- almost -- good evening now, Mr. Hansen.
16 A. Good evening, sir.
17 Q. I want to touch upon a few answers that you gave with Defence
18 counsel. And I will take them in reverse order that thy occurred.
19 My first question is regarding the Diverzantia issue, and
20 Mr. Kehoe asked you whether you became aware at a later stage that the
21 Diverzantia was not part of the HV.
22 Now can you tell the Court when you became aware of that
24 A. Just a few days ago.
25 Q. And in what context did you learn that?
1 A. In a conversation with you.
2 Q. That -- that I told you that the Diverzantia was not a HV unit?
3 A. Yes, as far as I remember.
4 Q. Did you also meet with Defence counsel prior to testifying here
6 A. I did, yes.
7 Q. And did they tell you that the Diverzantia was not part of a --
8 of the HV?
9 A. Not as far as I remember.
10 Q. Okay.
11 At transcript page 121, line 25 -- I'm sorry. Before that, I
12 missed one. Transcript page 139, lines 8 to 10, Mr. Kehoe asked you when
13 you were in the APC
14 he asked whether you could see anything, and you said you couldn't except
15 for the feet of the soldiers.
16 Now, in your first statement, P1283, on page 3 of that statement,
17 you said that:
18 "En route to the UN HQ we passed the above-mentioned area, pure
19 residential and saw private houses still ablaze, among them also the
20 residence of the Orthodox priest."
21 And in your direct examination you testified that you saw that
22 house on that day, on the 4th of August, being hit by a shell, and you
23 marked it, if you remember, on the aerial photograph of Knin.
24 A. True.
25 Q. So can you please clarify for the court whether when you were in
1 the APC
2 of the Orthodox priest being hit?
3 A. To the best of my knowledge, during the -- the trip where we were
4 carried in an APC
5 -- I have recollection of seeing damage is during our first trip to the
6 ECMM office.
7 Q. Do you remember whether there was any windows in the APC, any
8 small holes or windows you could look through?
9 A. Not as far as I remember.
10 Q. Okay. You were also asked about -- at 121, line 25, about the
11 meeting that had you with Mr. Gotovina.
12 A. Mm-hm.
13 Q. And in answer to one of his questions, you said that the
14 distinction between civilian and military was reflected in his answer to
15 your -- when you brought to his attention the looting and the burning and
16 other incidents that happened.
17 Now can you clarify for the Court what you meant by that
18 distinction between military and civilian responsibility?
19 A. There is an underlying assumption that with this distinction
20 there is also a deferral of responsibility for what is going on.
21 Q. I'm sorry, the word -- you said deferred responsibility?
22 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And what did you mean by that?
24 A. That the military chain of command would not at this point be
25 responsible for activities undertaken by non-military persons.
1 Q. And what did that mean for the responsibility for acts undertaken
2 by military persons?
3 A. Well, then the natural assumption would be that uniformed
4 personnel would be answerable for their conduct to the chain of command.
5 Q. Moving to P1290 your comprehensive survey which is at tab 19, I
6 just want to clarify one thing. You were asked a number of questions
7 about the evacuation and the statements in their -- regarding that.
8 I want you to look at the page numbered as 14. In the upload it
9 is it probably 16 or 17.
10 MR. KEHOE: Seventeen.
11 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
12 Q. And at 4.1 it starts: "Testimony ..." And starting here this is
13 it something that your interpreter had prepared. Is that correct?
14 A. Yeah, that is a direct entry of hers, and it is not my wording.
15 Q. And can you tell the Court how many pages is spanned by her
16 testimony? Does go all the way through the next heading which is at page
17 20, number 5, of the document?
18 A. That is true.
19 Q. So everything in those pages, you simply got directly from her.
20 So have you no knowledge about the accuracy of anything in there. Would
21 that be a fair statement?
22 A. That would be fair.
23 Q. Now, I want to move briefly to some answers you gave to my
24 learned friend Mr. Cayley, counsel for General Cermak.
25 And if you recall, he asked you a series of questions regarding
1 the responsibility of Mr. Cermak, and he suggested to you that
2 General Cermak was solely responsible for rebuilding and other similar
4 Do you remember that discussion you had with Mr. Cayley?
5 A. I remember that discussion.
6 Q. Thanks.
7 Now, in your second statement. Go to P12 -- your first -- I
8 think it's your second statement, P1284, on page number 3, just going to
9 wait for it to come up on the screen for everyone else.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. What's on the bottom of the screen, the middle of the screen, it
13 "During your meetings with General Cermak, he at all times gave
14 the impression of being the person in charge for the situation in the
15 former UN Sector South."
16 Now, did Mr. Cermak ever tell you that he was not the person
17 responsible for what was happening in Sector South?
18 A. No, he never informed us that he was not in charge.
19 Q. Did he ever give the impression to you that he was not in charge?
20 A. No, he did not.
21 Q. Did he ever tell that you he lacked resources to perform his
23 A. No, he never told us directly.
24 Q. Okay. And -- now did you notify about Cermak about the crimes
25 that you and your fellow ECMM monitors had observed during your patrols?
1 A. Yeah, we informed him about the looting and the arsoning.
2 Q. And would it be fair to say that you notified him because you
3 believed he could do something about that, about those crimes?
4 A. Yeah. Well, he was our point of contact to the Croatian
6 Q. And at page 44 of the transcript, it says -- or it's not entirely
7 clear on the draft transcript, but what I heard, and I'm sure Mr. Cayley
8 will correct me if I'm wrong, is that part of why you thought he lacked
9 authority was because nothing was done about what you were reporting to
11 A. That is it true.
12 Q. So during your meetings with him, he gave you the impression of
13 being in charge, and then you saw nothing was happening, and that led to
14 you believe that, perhaps, he lacked that authority when you answered
15 Mr. Cayley's question?
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. HEDARALY: I have no more questions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you, Mr. Hansen.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE ORIE: You were shown two reports relating to the 5th of
24 August, the one of which mentioned 30 dead bodies; whereas, the other --
25 and for the parties that was P1299. Whereas the other, which was D334,
1 mentioned three dead bodies.
2 I, first of all, that second report indicates that it comes from
3 RC Knin, and then SOO. What does SOO exactly stand for?
4 A. That stands for senior operations officer.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in that report often the phrasing is, I saw;
6 when I returned; when we did this. Should I understand this report to
7 reflect what a person saw, observed, wrote down; or is it a team report,
8 is it -- is it a report of an individual character rather than a more
9 general report? How do I have to understand this?
10 A. Yeah. Well, it may be bad semantics, but I would assume that the
11 "I" would refer to the author of the report.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because you were asked whether there was any
13 explanation for the 30 against the 3. I noticed that the 3 was what I,
14 in this report, observed.
15 Is there -- if one would explain the difference between the 30
16 and the 3 dead bodies by saying, Well, the 3 was what one what person saw
17 and reported. Would you want to comment on that as an explanation which
18 would for whatever reason you would give me, not be -- could not be a
19 valid explanation. I'm not saying it is a valid explanation, but would
20 disqualify as a valid explanation?
21 A. I think at this point in time, I would not be able to explain the
22 difference in numbers, and therefore, I would somehow refrain from
23 speculating why one is referring to 30 and one is --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking to you speculate. But if the 30 was
25 not a personal observation, but a report, and there was heavy fighting,
1 30 bodies were seen on the street, whereas in other report we read, "I
2 saw 3 bodies."
3 I'm asking you whether there was any reason why you would, on the
4 basis of your experience and knowledge, would disqualify such an
5 explanation beforehand.
6 A. No, I would not, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 I have no further questions to you.
9 Any need for further questions?
10 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, just -- can I just raise one thing
11 outside of the presentation of the witness, if I may?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will ask the witness -- but before we
13 ask him to come in and out ...
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Nothing, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
16 Mr. Cayley.
17 Then, Mr. Hansen, may I ask you to just follow Madam Usher for a
18 second. But we'd like to you remain stand by.
19 [Witness stands down]
20 Mr. Kehoe.
21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, as an officer of the court, and I
22 don't know if the witness was confused with what Mr. Hedaraly had to say,
23 but we did we did speak to the witness about the Diverzantia, about going
24 through books, and did this thing exist, et cetera. So we did have a
25 discussion with him.
1 I took it from the body language of Mr. Hedaraly that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly apparently had no recollection that it
3 was ever discussed with this witness.
4 MR. HEDARALY: I am fairly certain that we had not discussed that
5 issue with the witness.
6 MR. KEHOE: All I'm saying to you, Mr. President, is in the
7 spirit of candor to the Chamber, as we are required to do, I think the
8 witness got confused, and I think he is conflating a discussion with
9 Mr. Hedaraly with his discussion with us.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and who could mix the two of you up?
11 MR. KEHOE: It's shocking, isn't it?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for --
13 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wanted to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't come as a surprise after --
16 Could we ask the witness to return.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hansen, I just asked you return, first of all,
19 to tell that you there are no further questions for you; and, second, to
20 thank you for having come to The Hague and for having answered the many,
21 many questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench. And I'm happy
22 that you'll be able to return in time. I wish you a safe trip home
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort, Mr. Hansen,
1 out of the courtroom.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We have a few procedural matters, but for the first
4 one, I would like to go into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 15103-15105 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
22 I'd like to deliver a decision, which is an oral decision on the
23 admission into evidence of P1072, P1073, and P1074. Documents that were,
24 until now, marked for identification.
25 On the 3rd of November 2008, the Prosecution informed the Chamber
1 and the Defence that in the course of Zeljko Zganjer's testimony, it
2 would seek to admit into evidence, inter alia, three documents dated the
3 25th of October, 1995, relating to investigations carried out on the
4 alleged killings in Gosici, Varivode, and the area of Zrmanja.
5 On the 12th of November, Zeljko Zganjer was cross-examined by the
6 Gotovina Defence on these documents at transcript pages 11658 to 11659.
7 The Defence advanced that the numbering on the documents originating from
8 the criminal military police was not sequential, thus suggesting that
9 they were fabricated.
10 Zeljko Zganjer was unable to give a explanation on the matter as
11 he did not know how the documents were numbered.
12 At transcript pages 11661 to 662, the Prosecution objected to the
13 Defence`s suggestion that the documents were fabricated. The Prosecution
14 further argued that the Defence should have questioned Damir Simic, the
15 author of P1072 and P1073, and witness to these proceedings on the
16 authenticity of the documents.
17 Under Rule 89(C), the Chamber may admitted into evidence any
18 document that is relevant and probative.
19 P1072 is an operative plan signed by the criminal military police
20 official Damir Simic in respect of the Zadar's district state attorney's
21 request to conduct investigations into the alleged killings in Gosici
22 Varivode, and the area of Zrmanja. The work plan indicates that by
23 8.00 a.m.
24 had to be asserted. P1073, also dated the 25 October, 1995, is an arrest
25 warrant for two of the suspects. The arrest warrant contains the
1 addresses of two of the suspects.
2 P1074 is a search warrant dated the 25th of October, 1995, for
3 one of the suspects's living quarters. The search warrant also mentioned
4 this suspect's address.
5 P1072, P1073, and P1074 are relevant to Counts 1, 6, and 7 of the
6 indictment; that is, the charges of persecution and murder.
7 The Chamber notes that the P1073 and P1074 carry the document
8 numbers ending with 45 and 46, respectively. And that P1072 carries a
9 document number ending with 51. The numbering on the documents suggest
10 that P1072 was written after P1073 and P1074. However, P1072, which was
11 issued on the same date as the two other documents, indicates that, by
12 8.00 a.m.
13 suspects still needed to be ascertained; whereas, P1073 and P1074, which
14 expressly cite a suspect's address, indicate that this address had
15 already been ascertained by the time P1072 was written.
16 The Chamber observes that it could well be that the documents
17 were numbered at a later stage, much after they were written, and that
18 the officer in charge of the numbering simply numbered P1073 and P1074
19 before he or she numbered P1072.
20 The Chamber further notes that all documents tendered have been
21 signed, and two of them have been stamped. Considering this, and having
22 no further indication as to the documents' lack of authenticity, the
23 Chamber finds that P1072, P1073, and P1074 are probative and admits them
24 into evidence.
25 The Chamber will take into consideration the arguments raised by
1 the Defence when ultimately assessing the wait to be attributed to these
3 The Chamber requests that the Registrar change the status of
4 these documents in e-court accordingly; that is, instead of MFIed,
5 admitted into evidence.
6 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
7 The next -- one second, please.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: The next issues are the submissions on the five
11 The Prosecution has given an answer to the first question, more
12 or less, by giving a schedule for the witnesses to be called. There are
13 a few days where we're not sitting, 5th and 6th of February, for example,
14 and that finally with all uncertainties you have in these scheduling
15 matters that the Prosecution expects to close its case late February.
16 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, Your Honour, it is an -- it's a hopeful
17 expectation. Obviously, there's a lot of uncertainties as we have
18 outlined, but we are hopeful that it will be by the end of February.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will certainly assist you in
20 making this hope coming into fulfilment, Mr. Hedaraly.
21 That's an answer to the first question of the five questions that
22 were put to the parties on the 15th of January.
23 We meanwhile received a written submission which I will put on
24 the record, but just by reading it, Mr. Cayley, you are answered on
25 behalf of all of the Defence teams, although you left it open that this
1 joint submission could be followed by more specific submissions by each
2 of the Defence teams.
3 The answer to question 2 was that the Defence would need one
4 Court day for each team for Rule 98 bis submissions.
5 The answer to question 3 was that the Defence would need 20
6 working days after the end of the OTP case to the Rule of 98 bis
7 submissions, so in order to prepare for these submissions.
8 The answer to question 4 was that the Defence teams would need
9 60 working days between the Rule 98 bis submissions and the commencement
10 of the Defence case.
11 And the answer to the fifth question was that the Defence cases
12 would go in the order of the accused on the indictment.
13 Before I give an opportunity to the parties to add anything, let
14 me be very clear. The Chamber has considered the answers, does not give
15 a final ruling on the matter; that would be too early. But as matters
16 stand now, thought that it might assist the Defence to receive from the
17 Chamber, and most likely you will receive it from one minute from now on
18 your e-mail, a statistical analysis, I think, of the last 10 to 12 cases
19 and invites the Defence to come up with more realistic plans.
20 If you look at them, you'll see that often five, six, seven days
21 between the close of the case and -- we're not blind and deaf. For
22 special circumstances, of course, some of the -- what happened in
23 previous cases was also influenced by very special circumstances.
24 Sometimes a long period of time was including, for example, a recess.
25 But the Chamber is not heading for final Scheduling Order which would
1 bring the start of the Defence cases almost beyond the summer recess.
2 That is not something that the Chamber is seriously considering at this
4 So the Defence is invited to -- first of all, to read the e-mail
5 that will be sent by the legal officer of the Chamber, and then to come
6 back with other suggestions.
7 I don't think at this moment there is any further need -- of
8 course, if you like to add something to your new suggestions or point at
9 specific circumstances, then, of course, the Chamber will take notice of
11 Then, Mr. Misetic, I would like to give you an opportunity, but
12 in private session, to raise a matter you said you wanted to raise.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 15112-15114 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
21 Although I intended to deal with a few outstanding MFI matters, I
22 will not do that because time is too short. I again apologise for the
23 interpreters, transcribers, but also I'm aware that security and others
24 are also affected by this.
25 The parties should keep themselves ready to deal with the MFI
1 issues where I said responses by Friday.
2 MR. HEDARALY: Just because it is related to the witness,
3 Mr. President, the diary, I don't know if there is a decision. We can
4 wait till Monday. But if there is one, if we could just -- now that the
5 witness is gone.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the witness -- to admit it or not? We'll do
7 that, whether he is gone or not. I mean, it's there, you -- there are no
8 submissions, Mr. Kehoe, in relation to the way in which it was
9 transcribed. Then we'll deal that as well on Monday briefly.
10 I take it that the MFI
11 attention at this moment.
12 We adjourn, and we'll resume on Monday, 26th of January, 9.00, in
13 the morning, Courtroom II.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of
16 January, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.