1 Wednesday, 28 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 The late start is caused by a late finish by the Chamber that
13 previously used this courtroom.
14 Mr. Lausic, I'd like to remind you again that the solemn
15 declaration that you gave at the beginning of your testimony still binds
17 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to continue?
18 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.
19 One quick housekeeping matter, Your Honour. There was an issue
20 raised yesterday concerning P877. I'm advised that the translation in
21 e-court is indeed the revised translation. I, unfortunately, had the
22 previous translation. Should I have occasion to refer to it again, I now
23 have the revised translation that, as indicated, is in fact in e-court.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I looked at the portions quoted and do not
25 think that there`s specific reason to revisit those questions again.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 WITNESS: MATE LAUSIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lausic.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Mr. Lausic, yesterday there were some questions and some
9 testimony concerning the reporting system and to both the police -- the
10 military police administration and to the Military District Commanders.
11 I think beginning at page 15245, you began speaking about the
12 organisational form that was set up in the operational duty section and
13 the daily reports issued, and I believe there was an invitation to show
14 you such reports.
15 MR. TIEGER: So I'd like to call up D1069 and ask that it be
16 placed on the screen.
17 Q. Mr. Lausic, the document that will come up on the screen is not a
18 document that, to my knowledge, was presented to you before, although you
19 may or may not be familiar with it, so I'll ask you to look it over now.
20 A. It is correct I see this document for the first time.
21 Q. It is a daily report for 2 September 1995 from the Split Military
22 District, military post 2233, duty service. The Ministry of Defence
23 military police administration, operations department, stamp appears on
24 it below.
25 MR. TIEGER: And if we turn to page -- to the back of the
1 document, basically, beginning at page 3 of the English and continuing,
2 and the back of the document in Croatian, we see the indications of where
3 that document was sent; number one, operations duty department of the
4 military police administration; two, Split Military District Commander,
5 and then some other addressees.
6 Q. Mr. Lausic, is --
7 A. I apologise. Could we please zoom in so that I could read the
8 letters on the screen. Thank you.
9 MR. TIEGER: And in the English, if we could turn to page 3, at
10 the bottom of page 3.
11 Q. Now, my question, Mr. Lausic - and certainly, if you need
12 additional time to look at the document, you will certainly be permitted
13 to do so - is that an example of the daily reporting to which you were
14 referring yesterday?
15 A. That is correct. This is a standard report which was to be
16 submitted every day until 2400 hours at the latest to the duty operations
17 section in Zagreb
18 Based on this report, the duty officer at the administration
19 comprised daily bulletins which would early in the morning be distributed
20 to the highest level within the Ministry of Defence, as well as to the
21 office of the President, the chief of the Main Staff, as well as other
22 most senior officials.
23 This report used a standard template, which covered some specific
24 military police segments. As I can see, some parts of the report mention
25 no specific events, whereas some others do, and I can see that also one
1 other standard item is present, and that is that that the military police
2 was duty-bound to send this on a daily basis. According to the format,
3 the chapters included, and the language used, this was a standard type of
4 reporting that was in force during those several years, which partially
5 included the war years.
6 Q. And if I could show you one additional document.
7 MR. TIEGER: That would be 65 ter 3343.
8 Q. This is a document dated 15 November 1995 from Commander Colonel
9 General Gotovina, signed for him, to the attention of military police
10 post 2233, the commander Colonel Budimir, and the subject is: Submission
11 of reports warning.
12 The beginning of the document states:
13 "It is the everyday practice that the daily reports of the duty
14 service of the military post 2233 arrive in the operations centre of the
15 Split Military District Command, Knin forward command post, with delay."
16 It goes to on to explain that one of the reasons for that delay
17 is the fact that the reports are addressed to the Split Military District
18 Commander, and:
19 "... since there is no need for that and in order to enable the
20 officers who process the unusual incidents in the area of responsibility
21 of the Split Military District to finish their job on time, I am asking
22 you to address the daily reports to the operations centre of the Split
23 Military District Command."
24 And again --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. And, Mr. Lausic, I wanted to ask you if that is a reference to
3 and reflection of the daily reports which were sent to the Military
4 Districts by the military police to which you referred yesterday?
5 A. Could you please be more specific, since I am not clear as to
6 what I should focus my response on. This is a warning.
7 Q. Yeah. The -- just -- I'm looking at the reference to: It is the
8 everyday practice that the daily reports of the duty service of the
9 military post 2233, et cetera. Is that a reference to the types of daily
10 reports that you were speaking about yesterday that were sent to the
11 Military Districts?
12 A. Yes, that is correct. Mention is made here that it is everyday
13 practice for the daily reports of the duty service of the military post
14 2233, which was the second [as interpreted] MP battalion, and that those
15 arrive in the operations centre of the Split Military District Command,
16 Knin forward command post with delay.
17 Some reasons are specified for those delays, and an order is
18 issued to address those reports to different addressees that some changes
19 be made therein.
20 There was no dispute about those daily reports arriving on a
21 daily basis.
22 MR. KAY: Can I just say something? The transcript says "second
23 MP Battalion". I think it should be 72nd MP Battalion. I'm sure
24 Mr. Tieger would agree.
25 MR. TIEGER: I think that's right, although my experience is that
1 sometimes the -- what appears initially here is quickly corrected by the
2 stenographer, but I think Mr. Kay is quite right.
3 MR. KAY: It was how it was translated.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think it was said in English. It is not
5 a transcribing issue, but it's, rather, either the way in which the
6 witness expressed himself or a translation issue.
7 But I take it that you referred to the 72nd Battalion rather than
8 to the 2nd.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue.
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President, and I'm grateful to Mr.
13 Can we call up 65 ter 1334, please. I'm sorry, Your Honour, and
14 maybe it is an appropriate time, then, to tender 65 ter 3343.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Which is not yet on your list then.
16 MR. TIEGER: It's on the list, but we can wait. However -- we
17 can either handle it now or wait to have them tendered in bulk.
18 JUDGE ORIE: On your list. Perhaps I should be more specific.
19 Was it -- --
20 MR. TIEGER: It was not on the -- on the 92 ter list.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. But it was on the spreadsheet in which
22 you have the exhibits indicated you intend to use.
23 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
25 No objections. Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will become Exhibit P2194.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
4 And, Mr. Registrar, could I ask again, then, for 65 ter 1334.
5 Q. Mr. Lausic, the document now coming up on your screen is an order
6 dated 30 October 1995
7 the 72nd Military Police Battalion as indicated at the end of the
8 document. It begins that:
9 "Due to the observed irregularities in the manner of reporting
10 unusual events to the superior command by units and the violation of the
11 chain of command in the command and control system, for instance, on 29
12 October 1995, when the duty officer of the 72nd Military Police Battalion
13 first reported the fire in the military facility in Strmica to the COR at
14 the Croatian army Main Staff rather than to the Split Military District
15 operation centre, Knin forward command post ..."
16 And then it goes on to order that the duty officer of a unit is
17 obliged immediately to report by telephone any unusual incident and send
18 an interim report within two hours, and so on.
19 Now, Mr. Lausic, does this refer to the reporting -- to the daily
20 reporting system that you referred to yesterday and that was reflected in
21 the documents, the two documents we just looked at; or is the reference
22 to the reporting of unusual events a reference to another form of
23 reporting events that take place in the Split Military District?
24 A. What we have here is not reporting to a higher level in the
25 structure of the military police. Rather, the duty officer of the 72nd
1 MP Battalion reported of this event, that is, the fire, to the centre of
2 operational command of the Main Staff rather than contacting the forward
3 command post of the Military District of Split that was in Knin. He did
4 not get in touch with the duty operations section of the administration.
5 He contacted the Main Staff, that is to say, a level within the armed
6 forces. The administration of the military police, as such, was part --
7 a part of the Ministry of Defence. It was a different line of reporting.
8 He did not use the line of reporting inside the military police. What we
9 are discussing here was the structured line of reporting that existed in
10 the armed forces.
11 Q. In this instance, the unusual event appears to be a fire. Would
12 the occurrence of crimes, including looting and burning --
13 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object, and I ask that
14 the fire -- where the fire took place I think is going to be important,
15 so if it's put to the witness, that it be put fully to him.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: Sure.
18 Q. Mr. Lausic, as I read the preface to the order, the unusual event
19 in question appears to be a fire in the military facility in Strmica, and
20 my question was whether or not the occurrence of crimes by members of the
21 HV would also be included as unusual events that would be reported?
22 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to object as to the vagueness of the
23 question, Mr. President. Unusual events in what context? The witness
24 has explained this is not a military police issue, and what regulation
25 are we referring to, what reporting system, concerning what events?
1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question. The objection
2 is denied.
3 Could you please answer the question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 72nd MP Battalion, much as any
5 other unit within the Military District of Split, was duty-bound to
6 report to the operations centre of the Military District of Split on any
7 extraordinary events which took place in the unit. That was the vertical
8 structure of reporting that was to be used, since one of the military
9 units -- or, rather, since that military unit would be part of the
10 Military District of Split
11 supposed to report on all activities of the 72nd Battalion as a military
12 police unit to more senior levels following the vertical structure of the
13 military police. That is to say, they had to report to the military
14 police administration in Zagreb
15 of the duty office of the 72nd MP Battalion, in particular such reports
16 for the 30th of October, 1995, that was sent to the duty office of the MP
17 administration in Zagreb
18 another chapter of the formatted report, we would also come across this
19 particular event.
20 The 72nd Battalion had two lines of reporting: towards the Split
21 Military District and their operations centre and towards the military
22 police administration.
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. And just to round out that answer, Mr. Lausic, you said that the
25 72nd Military Police Battalion, much as any other unit within the
1 Military District of Split
2 centre of the Military District of Split on any extraordinary events
3 which took place in the unit; would crimes or the observation of crimes
4 or the awareness of crimes be considered such an extraordinary event?
5 A. Could you please be more specific? Do you understand by this the
6 offences which took place within the establishment units of the 72nd
7 Battalion, that is to say, their members - for example, if there were any
8 cases in the 72nd Battalion of suicide, homicide, theft, or whatever - or
9 does this concern the military policemen of the 72nd Battalion when
10 exercising their duties in contact with other members of the Military
11 District of Split? If a member of the 72nd Battalion committed suicide
12 or if there was a homicide or theft, that would be an extraordinary event
13 to be reported to the operations centre of the Military District of
15 place in the facilities where the battalion was billeted. Everything
16 else would be covered in the regular type of reporting sent to the MP
17 administration, and among other addressees, those reports went to the
19 Q. Okay. Thank you.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, if I can have just one moment.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Okay, Mr. Lausic, if I could turn you back to your diary. That's
1 P2166. And I'd like to direct your attention first to an entry of
2 August 8th, 1995
3 MR. TIEGER: That's on page -- I'm not sure which references are
4 most helpful to the registrar, but page 37 of the English and page 33 of
5 the Croatian.
6 Q. And toward the bottom third of the page, we see the following
8 "The tasks of these reinforced patrols are, A, to arrest and/or
9 destroy enemy groups and/or individuals on patrol directions; B, to
10 prevent commission of crimes by HV members on patrol axes in case of
11 interventions to hand over detained HV members to the local VP, military
12 police unit."
13 And an entry below:
14 "0800 hours, General Cervenko - informed with the situation!"
15 With an exclamation point.
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Mr. Lausic, what was it that General Cervenko was informed of on
18 that date?
19 A. We have to go back to the beginning of the document. My notes
20 say that I got a call from Major Juric at 7.45. He was the officer in
21 charge of the forward command post of the MP administration attached to
22 the Military District of Split
23 the -- securing the storage depots was implemented. Then Brigadier
24 Biskic specified that the depot was handed over to -- by the 72nd Company
25 of the military police. He also reported on the tasks that are underway
1 at that point in time.
2 I can't recall exactly whether this was a short briefing with my
3 deputy, whereupon I issued these tasks to him. I believe that is what
4 happened. Yes, I think I was issuing those tasks to my deputy. These
5 are the tasks I wanted to see implemented.
6 In item 1, commanders, at the IZM of the 73rd, 72nd, then we have
7 Major Juric, Major Cvitanovic, Colonel Kozic, they were to carry out all
8 military police tasks in their zones of responsibility with the existing
9 formations. I also ordered that the UVP reserve forces, that the 66 VVP
10 be used to --
11 Q. Yeah, I think you're reciting in some detail the -- all of the
12 issues that are reflected in the diary entry, but my question was a bit
13 more specific than that, and that is that the diary entry indicates that
14 General Cervenko was informed of the situation, and, indeed, there is an
15 exclamation point after that, which indicates, at least grammatically,
16 that there was something significant about that, so I just wanted to ask
17 you if you could recall the situation that General Cervenko was informed
19 A. That is why I was reading, trying to see what was it that
20 preceded this note that General Cervenko was informed of the situation.
21 I was trying to jog my memory. I obviously acquainted him with the fact
22 that the reserve forces, that is to say, the 66th Battalion was used to
23 form ten groups as security for protected persons and delegations since
24 some protected persons and ambassadors were going to the liberated
25 territory. Then the three combat groups were formed with combat vehicles
1 to go to the liberated territories in order to prevent crimes, et cetera,
2 et cetera, and this is what the chief of the Main Staff was informed
3 about, what the measures were undertaken by me, to improve the situation
4 with law and order in the liberated areas, and to prevent crimes. This
5 is it. I was reading the passages in order to jog my memory on what it
6 was exactly that I informed General Cervenko of.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm about to turn to another entry in
8 the diary, but Ms. Henry Frijlink reminds me that I did not tender 65 ter
10 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
11 Mr. Registrar, the number to be assigned to 1334 would be ...
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2195, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Mr. Lausic, I'd like to direct your attention next to a diary
16 entry a couple of days later for the 10th of August, 1995, and that's at
17 page 39 of the English, page 35 of the Croatian.
18 And specifically, Mr. Lausic, I'd like to direct your attention
19 to an entry at the -- at the bottom of page 39 in English and also the
20 bottom of the page in Croatian that's now on the screen.
21 And that indicates that at 2100 hours, there was a telephone call
22 from senior Lieutenant Matanic, commander of the 71st Military Police
23 Battalion, and the entry indicates:
24 "Informed that the commander of Gospic Military District, Staff
25 Brigadier Mirko Norac, ordered the arrest of a larger group of members of
1 one battalion of the 118th Brigade, a Home Guard Regiment, who refused to
2 follow orders and go to the battlefield in the direction of Gornji
4 Goes on to note that following consultations with Staff Brigadier
5 Obradovic and personally with Staff Brigadier Norac, it was decided not
6 to carry out the arrests but, instead, to let the tension die down.
7 And I simply wanted to ask you if that was a reflection of one of
8 the powers of the Military District Commander to order the military
9 police to arrest members of the Croatian army who have committed or are
10 suspected of committing a crime?
11 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, I'm going to object again. If he can
12 cite the crime that has been committed there. I think we're talking
13 about two different things here.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I was, for a moment, distracted because I had to
15 sign five decisions. Therefore, I read the ...
16 The objection is denied. The witness can answer the question.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my diary, I noted down here that
18 at 2100 hours, the commander of the 71st Battalion of the military police
19 called me up and conveyed to me the order he had received from Staff
20 Brigadier Mirko Norac who ordered the arrest of a large group of members
21 of a battalion of the 118th Home Guard Regiment who had refused to go in
22 the direction of Gornji Vakuf. So this was not a crime but, rather, a
23 breach of military discipline, the refusal to follow orders. As a large
24 number of members of the Home Guard Regiment were involved and there was
25 a lot of tension, I contacted the operations centre of the Main Staff of
1 the Croatian army with the then-duty officer of the operative centre, and
2 that was Staff Brigadier Mate Obradovic. I also contacted Staff
3 Brigadier Mirko Norac, who was the commander of the Gospic Military
4 District, and it was decided that these persons should not be deprived of
5 their liberty but that, rather, tensions should be alleviated because
6 using a means of coercion would lead to trouble, but that, rather, the
7 chain of command should be alerted so that there was no large-scale
8 arrest of these soldiers.
9 But this was not about a crime. It was about refusal to carry
10 out orders. That's a breach of military discipline.
11 Q. Okay. And let me explore that with you further.
12 Had the occurrence in question been the commission of arson - the
13 burning of houses, for example - would Brigadier Norac or any or Military
14 District Commander have the power to order the military police to
16 A. Certainly.
17 Q. Mr. Lausic, yesterday I believe there was reference to a couple
18 of entries in your diary on the 13th and 15th concerning a top-level
19 operational meeting.
20 Let me first turn to an entry on the 11th, which was the first
21 reference I saw to that impending meeting. That's on page 64 of the
22 English, 58 of the Croatian.
23 And just looking quickly at the entry under Mr. Moric's name, it
24 indicates that on the 13th of September, 1995:
25 "At 1000 hours in the Republic of Croatia MUP, top-level
1 organisational meeting on the cooperation between MUP, military police,
2 and Military District Commanders on the prevention of unlawful acts of
3 torching, mining and looting in the newly liberated area."
4 So I take it that was a reference to the anticipated meeting on
5 the 13th, which was briefly discussed yesterday?
6 A. Yes, correct. Here, I say the assistant minister of the MUP;
7 that means that we talked on the phone. Most probably, he rang me up,
8 and these are bullet points as to what we agreed on, which was that on
9 the 13th of September at 9.00 we would hold a top-level operational
10 meeting on the cooperation between MUP, VP, and ZP commanders and the
11 prevention of unlawful acts of torching, mining, and looting in the newly
12 liberated area, that it was necessary for us to gather incoming data by
13 zones of responsibility, and then that a joint inspection would be
14 carried out at the highest level; I would go, my deputy, he with his
15 assistants, Mr. Moric with his assistants, and through the chief of the
16 Main Staff of the Republic of Croatia
17 participate and be engaged at a meeting of commanders of the following
18 districts: Zabre [phoen], Karlovac, Gospic, and Split, and then a -- a
19 summons arrived for the analysis of Operation Storm.
20 What it says here, Brigadier Biskic, means that I informed
21 Brigadier Biskic of this.
22 Q. Okay. Let's turn to the -- your notes from September 13th at
23 that meeting, then, and I wanted to look specifically at the comments by
24 Mr. Moric at that meeting.
25 And beginning at the third indicated paragraph, you indicate that
1 Mr. Moric said:
2 "We must implement measures that will guarantee implementation in
3 the field of that which has been agreed upon on the higher level.
4 "The line of command is not operational since on the level of the
5 Military District they believe that they are either misinformed or that
6 things are misrepresented or misinterpreted. We must make sure military
7 commanders know the truth.
8 "We must coordinate the activities of the military and civilian
9 police, and the military commanders must know the truth and undertake
10 preventative measures.
11 "On 22 August 1995
12 that we start with a new method of work.
13 "We must find a way to have the civilian and military police work
14 hand in hand."
15 Mr. Lausic, can you tell us what Mr. Moric was referring to when
16 he said:
17 "The line of command was not operational since on the level of
18 the Military District they believe they are either misinformed or that
19 things are misrepresented or misinterpreted."
20 MR. MISETIC: I'm going object, Mr. President. For the record,
21 the Prosecution had the opportunity to call Mr. Moric and decided not to,
22 and to now ask this witness to speculate about what Mr. Moric meant I
23 think is improper.
24 MR. TIEGER: I think, Your Honour, that is a clearly improper
25 objection at least in the context of an examination of this witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: This objection should not have been made when the
2 witness hears the objection.
3 The objection is denied.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Mr. Lausic, if could you answer that question, please.
7 Do you need me to ask that again?
8 A. Could you please repeat your question because I really didn't
9 understand it.
10 Q. Mr. Lausic, can you tell us what Mr. Moric was referring to when
11 you said: "The line of command was not operational since on the level of
12 the Military District they believe they are either misinformed or that
13 things are misrepresented or misinterpreted."
14 A. I really couldn't answer that question. These are my bullet
15 points, the notes I took while Mr. Moric was speaking. I took down his
16 words faithfully, but at this time I really couldn't tell what you he
17 meant, what he was thinking. I only noted down his words in his
18 introductory remarks at the meeting we had.
19 Q. Well, let me turn, then, to the military police coordination
20 meeting that took place two days later on the 15th of September. And --
21 I'm sorry. I should have been clearer on that. That's the meeting at
22 Plitvice, and it's a MUP military police coordination meeting as
23 indicated by the heading. We talked about it briefly yesterday, and if I
24 could turn to your comments on page 70 of the English.
25 MR. TIEGER: And that should be, Mr. Registrar, at the -- right.
1 Q. I asked you yesterday about that first entry and about the
2 structures, and you dealt with that yesterday. And then you say:
3 "We must separate our personal from our professional stance when
4 they differ in order to implement the proclaimed state policy."
5 Can you explain to the Court what that was a reference to,
6 Mr. Lausic?
7 A. The military police, just like the civilian police, when carrying
8 out its tasks in Operation Storm mobilised its reserve forces. I
9 mobilised about 1500 reserve policemen, for example. I'm not sure what
10 number the civilian police mobilised, but in any case, it was a large
11 number of reserve policemen of the civilian police.
12 The reserve forces of both the civilian and military police were
13 local people from a certain area, and many of them had been expelled
14 together with their families. They had been displaced and accommodated
15 in temporary refugee centres. What I meant by what I said here was the
16 following: Both members of the military and of the civilian police have
17 to keep their emotions and frustrations under control. They have to
18 subordinate them to their professional tasks. They must perform their
19 professional tasks in such a manner that their attitude is strictly
20 professional and that they should not be lenient towards members of the
21 Croatian forces if they found them burning or looting.
22 So what I said here was that we, the highest levels of leadership
23 in the military and civilian police, had to convey this standpoint down
24 the chain of command to the lowest-ranking policemen, both in the
25 military and civilian police, whether active duty or reserve, and that
1 they should be strictly told that their personal frustrations and
2 emotions should not be confused with their professional work, that
3 tolerating such crimes is detrimental to the state policy, that it
4 creates an image which is harmful to the Republic of Croatia
5 they must be very energetic in carrying out their professional tasks.
6 This is a brief explanation of what I meant when I said that we
7 must separate our personal from our professional stance when they differ.
8 I mean, for example, that if there is a reserve military police or
9 civilian police at a check-point who had been displaced with his family
10 and someone came along with stolen goods in their car, if such a person
11 let that person pass through with stolen goods without taking any action,
12 that would not be a good thing. Their emotions should not influence
13 their performance of their professional tasks.
14 That's what I was trying to say.
15 Q. And then your notes indicate, toward the bottom of the page:
16 "Bring the line of command into the problem. Commanders at all
17 levels must be aware of the problem and must resolve issues ... along the
18 line of command [sic]."
19 Now, with respect to commanders at the higher levels, with
20 respect to Military District Commanders, did you consider the possibility
21 of personally contacting those commanders, raising the problems with the
22 line of command, and seeking their efforts in resolving it?
23 A. As you have had an opportunity to present my daily reports, which
24 were addressed along with Minister Susak to the highest-ranking military
25 commander, the chief of the Main Staff, you will have seen that I
1 describe the situation as it was in reality and propose what measures
2 should be taken down the chain of command. It was to be expected that
3 the chief of the Main Staff, based on my daily reports and also reports
4 from other levels and services, should issue orders down the chain of
6 My chain of reporting was the one you presented through my daily
7 reports to the highest military and civilian structures. It was to be
8 expected that the chief of the Main Staff, based on these reports, should
9 respond down his chain of command and issue orders to lower-ranking
10 officers, at lower levels.
11 Q. And what was intended, therefore, when your notes say "bring the
12 line of command into the problem"? How was that intended to be
14 A. Well, the answer is contained in the attendees of that meeting at
15 Plitvice who included the highest-level commanders, the commanders of
16 battalions who were part of the Military Districts. These commanders of
17 military police battalions, in their daily contacts, in their briefings,
18 when they brief the commanders of the Military Districts or commanders at
19 other levels, should insist -- they should insist that the chain of
20 command should be used to prevent unacceptable behaviour.
21 Q. Mr. Lausic, we turn then next --
22 MR. TIEGER: And, Mr. Registrar, can we call up D567, please.
23 Q. Mr. Lausic, D567 is a report by you dated 16 September 1995
24 regarding the analysis of the use of the military police of the armed
25 forces of the Republic of Croatia
1 number of areas. The first section indicates the planning and preparing
2 of military police units in Operation Storm; the second section, the use
3 of military police units in the preparation of Croatian army units for
4 Operation Storm; section 3, the use of military police units at the
5 beginning of assault operations and in liberating the occupied areas;
6 section 3.4, under the subsection under that particular section at page 5
7 of the English and page 5 of the Croatian reflects the use of military
8 police units to receive, escort, and process captured members of
9 paramilitary units and the numbers of persons who were processed through
10 10 September 1995
11 It indicates, Mr. Lausic -- let me just ask you question about
12 that. It indicates a total of 1576 persons escorted and processed from
13 the beginning of Storm until 10 September 1995 and then the number of
14 persons handed over to judicial bodies, so the number of persons escorted
15 and processed being 1576. The number of persons handed over by the
16 military police for whom there were reasons to suspect that they had
17 committed criminal acts to the detriment of the Republic of Croatia
19 Just for clarification, Mr. Lausic, that's -- that's a reference
20 to Serbs suspected of activities against the Republic of Croatia
21 A. Correct. These were members of the army of the so-called Sprksa
22 Krajina, the army of the rebel Serbs on the territory of the Republic of
24 Q. We've seen a number of references in the documents and some of
25 which you noted yesterday and I think referred to even the day before to
1 the limited number of military policemen available, given the size of the
2 territory and the events that were taking place.
3 Can you give the Court any approximation of the number of
4 personnel or percentage of personnel that was devoted to the task of
5 processing the captured members of -- or suspected captured members of
6 paramilitary units?
7 A. I couldn't be precise about that without seeing the analysis I
8 prepared in 2004 when preparing for my interview with the investigators
9 of The Hague Tribunal.
10 In any case, they were employees of the crime detection military
12 Q. If we just turn quickly to a couple of other entries, and turning
13 to page 8 of the English and page 9 of the Croatian.
14 The heading in that section is:
15 "Measures we undertook and continue to undertake to raise the
16 general level of security in the newly liberated area of the Republic of
18 "By constant" -- it states that: "By constant visits to the
19 newly liberated area of the Republic of Croatia
20 we found there an analysis of the state of security. We changed our
21 tactics and methods of organising the military police and proposed to the
22 HV Main Staff that they should take over the line of command to avoid
23 disruption of public law and order, the commission of crimes, and in
24 endangerment of traffic safety by members of the HV. These measures
25 produced certain results but did not completely" -- well, the literal
1 language here in English is "... did not completely the commission of
2 prevent crimes ..." and I presume that's to mean did not completely
3 prevent the commission of crimes, "... especially theft of property,
4 torching houses, and individual acts of murder."
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
6 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Tieger said page 8. I believe he means page
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you for that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. And then finally, Mr. Lausic, just look down at the bottom of
12 that page in English to the proposals you make. I think it's just after
13 the -- in -- in English if we could raise that slightly and -- right.
14 The first proposal is that:
15 "The line of command should be assured by the presence of the HV
16 Military District Commanders, officers responsible for security and
17 information service, and political activity at working meetings which
18 would be held in the coming period with assistance to the RH minister of
19 the interior in all HV military districts who have areas of
20 responsibility in the newly liberated territory, so that they take over
21 responsibility for the conduct of members of the HV and lay down a line
22 of command to control the movement of these soldiers."
23 MR. TIEGER: And so that the English is -- the English should be
24 raised up to the first -- I guess that would be the previous page, then,
25 if that's the case, and to the bottom. Thank you.
1 Q. And, Mr. Lausic, can you tell us what you intended by this
2 proposal and the extent to which it was implemented after you made it --
3 or adopted and implemented after you made it?
4 A. This proposal was not implemented -- or, rather, meetings were
5 not held at the level of the minister or assistant minister and myself as
6 well as my deputy with the commanders of Military Districts. I don't
7 know why that did not take place and for what reasons. I can merely say
8 that those meetings were not held. At least, I made no note of them, and
9 I don't seem to recollect any such meetings.
10 Q. And if I could turn your attention back to page 9 of the English
11 and page 8 of the Croatian. This is under a heading entitled:
12 "The results of establishing military police duty in the newly
13 liberated area of the Republic of Croatia
14 And it indicates that:
15 "The military crime police, in collaboration with the Republic of
16 Croatia MUP crime police, processed 321 crimes ..."
17 And then it lists a number of crimes, including -- beginning with
18 13 murders, 18 cases of HV members dying accidentally, 191 cases of
19 torching, 13 cases of setting explosive, 86 other crimes, chiefly theft.
20 Of known perpetrators of the above crimes, 79 were HV members and 274
21 were civilians.
22 As of the time of the report, September 16th, 1995, Mr. Lausic,
23 were those 13 murders indicated at section 7 of the report the total
24 number of alleged murders or possible murders that the military police
25 had investigated?
1 A. I could not answer that precisely. This document entitled
2 "analysis of the use of the military police" was compiled from reports
3 sent by the heads of departments of the military police, the head of the
4 crime service of the military police, the traffic military police, and
5 other services, and they, in turn, received that information from their
6 subordinate units.
7 This is a compilation. Therefore, this part refers to the work
8 of the crime police and, as such, was forwarded by the head of that
9 department. It is merely as a point of reference in the document.
10 Therefore, I cannot precisely answer your question.
11 Q. Do you know whether or not the military police was made aware of
12 the number of civilian bodies or bodies determined to be civilians that
13 were recovered or located after Operation Storm began?
14 A. I had no such information.
15 Q. Were you aware of the operation of sanitation units in the newly
16 liberated territories that were collecting bodies?
17 A. I was not reported on those activities. Sanitation and hygiene
18 measures within a given area is something that is undertaken pursuant to
19 an order from the appropriate level. The military police was not
20 duty-bound to be informed of that. Therefore, I did not have that
21 information. I only know that commanders could issue orders on
22 sanitation and hygiene measures to prevent outbreaks of disease,
23 et cetera.
24 In one of the numerous daily reports we have commented upon, I
25 stipulated that sanitation and hygiene measures should be undertaken as
1 soon as possible in the liberated area because there are -- there's dead
2 cattle, roads are blocked, and all of those things can affect general
3 security in the area.
4 Q. You said you know that commanders can issue orders on sanitation
5 and hygiene measures to prevent outbreaks of disease, and I -- do I
6 assume correctly that's a reference in part to picking up both dead
7 animals and dead human bodies to prevent the outbreak of disease?
8 A. Since I do not have a military background but a police one, I
9 cannot tell you precisely what falls under the category of sanitation and
10 hygiene measures. As a layperson, I would say that this would entail
11 removing anything that can be dangerous to the health of people, and
12 animals, of course.
13 Q. And were you informed at any time or did you receive information
14 at any time that there was any investigation into the deaths of any of
15 the persons whose bodies were picked up by sanitation units?
16 A. I did not have such information. I have no knowledge of that.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 Q. And finally, Mr. Lausic, turning again to the proposals in your
19 report, there are quite a number of proposals. Can you tell us what
20 prompted in particular proposal number one, concerning the line of
21 command, the proposal that you said was not adopted or implemented, or
22 any of the other proposals?
23 A. Could we please have that brought up on the screen?
24 Q. Certainly.
25 MR. TIEGER: That begins at the bottom of page 10 of the English
1 and page 9 in the Croatian.
2 Q. And actually, rather than having you read them all, let me ask to
3 you focus on the first proposal that you said was not adopted. Can you
4 tell us what prompted you to make that recommendation and proposal?
5 A. The latter part of the sentence is important, to take over
6 responsibility for the conduct of members of the HV and lay down a line
7 of command to control the movement of these soldiers, which means that,
8 in practice, this was not the case. By virtue of the meetings that were
9 to be held with the commanders, the need for them as the most senior
10 commanders in their areas of responsibility, should lie down a chain of
11 command by referring it to their subordinate command posts and to have
12 the rules concerning the work and life of the members of the HV put in
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lausic.
15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that concludes the Prosecution's
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
18 Before we have a break, Mr. Lausic, I would like to ask one or
19 more additional questions.
20 Could I take you back to the meeting that was held on the 13th of
21 September in which Mr. Moric expressed that he was not satisfied with the
22 attitude or approach of the military commanders and apparently expected
23 them to undertake preventative measures.
24 Now, did you form an opinion about whether such preventative
25 measures should be undertaken by the military commanders?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, completely right. Both
2 Mr. Moric and I arrived at the same conclusions, and that is that the
3 chain of command was needed to prevent the commission of crimes and that
4 it needed to become more efficient or even operational because in some
5 instances it simply did not exist.
6 Perhaps I should explain. The commission of crimes was often
7 caused but not disciplining HV members. Had the rules of the HV been
8 followed, there would not have been as many crimes, and I can corroborate
9 that by certain examples. For example, if a member, HV member steals a
10 car and uses it for theft or robbery, that would have been prevented had
11 the rules on the use of vehicles been followed, and that particular HV
12 member would not have had the opportunity to steal the car and use it to
13 commit crimes. The same model can be used when discussing the use of
14 arms and other crimes. We wanted to ensure that commanders lie down the
15 chain of command in order to have the rules of work and activities of HV
16 members put in place, which to a large extent would prevent HV members to
17 be in a situation in which they could potentially commit crimes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Moric said that the Military District level
19 -- believed that they were misinformed or that things were
20 misinterpreted. Did you form an opinion about that, as well, whether it
21 was misinformation or -- so not knowing what actually was happening, or
22 was it not wanting to know what actually was happening, or -- did you
23 form an opinion about an explanation as to the attitude of the Military
24 District level?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally believe then, as I do
1 now, that commanders at all levels, via the daily and interim reports
2 they received from the military police as well as from their subordinate
3 commanders, did have an opportunity to acquaint themselves with the
4 situation in their respective areas.
5 I can say another thing. There were also assistant commanders
6 for security and information, that is to say, that person was in charge
7 of security and was also duty-bound to report to the commander on all
8 security-related events, much as the military police had to. They also
9 had to report on the activities and behaviour of HV members within the
10 commander's area of responsibility. That post is the assistant commander
11 for security -- or, rather, for the SIS service.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently at the meeting, Mr. Moric expressed some
13 concerns in this respect. I hear from you that you had concerns in this
14 respect as well. Did you share those concerns with Mr. Moric, either
15 during or outside this meeting?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the meeting of the 13th.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the Ministry of the Interior.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's the meeting where Mr. Moric said that he --
20 that the activities of the military and civilian police should be
21 coordinated and that military commanders must know the truth and
22 undertake preventative measures.
23 So my question was whether you, at this meeting or at any other
24 occasion, you shared the concerns similar to the concerns Mr. Moric
25 expressed with him.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr. President. I
2 did not make separate notations of my own views expressed since this was
3 my diary. I only noted down what Mr. Moric said. Reading the notes that
4 refer to him, I agree fully with his views on the situation and measures
5 to be undertaken, as well as the discrepancy between what was agreed upon
6 and ordered and the situation in the field. This view of Mr. Moric's
7 would be identical to my view.
8 JUDGE ORIE: My question, however, is whether you shared, that
9 you spoke about these concerns with him, either during this meeting or
10 outside of this meeting, so that you told him what your concerns were and
11 that he told you that he did or did not share your concerns.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr. President.
13 At the meeting itself, I expressed my views which were identical
14 to Mr. Moric's views, which I noted down. There was some discussion, and
15 we all agreed on those views. We all agreed it to be true.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And where Mr. Moric said that military
17 commanders must know the truth, did you form any opinion as to whether
18 they knew the truth but didn't want to know it or that they really did
19 not know the truth and should be informed about what had happened?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same comment would apply to
21 this situation as I said a moment ago. The commanders received reports
22 from MP units, from their subordinate officers as well as their assistant
23 commanders in charge of security, and by virtue of those, they had
24 insight into the situation of their respective areas.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you ever speak about that with
1 Mr. Moric, that you believed that they received information which would
2 enable them to know the truth but that they apparently did not want to
3 know it or did not understand it? Did you ever discuss this with
4 Mr. Moric whether during this meeting or at any other occasion?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is difficult to be precise since
6 I have no verbatim notes of the meeting. In any case, we did discuss
7 that, and I shared my views with him at that point in time, much as I did
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 We'll have a break --
11 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, if I could make an objection either
12 now or when we come back or -- outside the presence --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll first give the witness the opportunity
14 to follow the usher.
15 We'll have a break, Mr. Lausic, for approximately 25 minutes.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
18 MR. MISETIC: I'm sorry, Mr. President. Respectfully, I have to
19 object to the leading nature of some of the questions that were posed. I
20 just note for the record that on the transcript when the witness was
21 asked on direct about this matter, he said he didn't know what was meant,
22 and in the way the question was posed to him, it says:
23 "Mr. Moric expressed that he was not satisfied with the attitude
24 or approach of the military commanders and apparently expected them to
25 undertake preventative measures..." is how you posed the question to him.
1 I believe it was leading, and I think -- during
2 cross-examination, I certainly plan to explore this topic, but for the
3 record I feel compelled to note my objection.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I did, Mr. Misetic, is where you objected
6 against the question put by Mr. Tieger, an objection which could easily
7 be understood as an encouragement to follow your suggestion that whatever
8 in addition to what we find on paper would be said by this witness as far
9 as the remarks of Mr. Moric are concerned would be speculation. I asked
10 some additional questions to explore where additional information would
11 from a logical point of view not necessarily amount to speculation,
12 whether there was any information known to this witness which would not
13 be speculative and which would assist the Chamber in understanding the
14 notes and the observations made by Mr. Moric.
15 MR. MISETIC: If I could just say briefly, Your Honour, to the
16 extent you've now said it was encouragement. It is a perfectly
17 legitimate objection --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I did not say it was encouragement.
19 Would you please carefully listen to me: Could be understood as.
20 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I said, nothing more, nothing less.
22 MR. MISETIC: And if I could also add that it was an objection
23 that is routinely made; the second point is, my objection was based on a
24 prior ruling of the Chamber where you sustained the same objection with
25 respect to Mr. Hjertnes, and that is the basis upon which I made the
1 objection, just for the record.
2 Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's on the record. We'll have a break, and we
4 will resume at 25 minutes past 4.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 4.02 p.m.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 --- On resuming at 4.29 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I take it you're the first one to
9 cross-examine the witness.
10 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lausic, you will now be cross-examined by
12 Mr. Misetic. Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
13 Please proceed.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lausic. I would like to -- I wasn't planning
16 on it, but I'd like to pick up where we left off at the end -- with the
17 Presiding Judge's questions.
18 If we could turn to Exhibit D567, Mr. Registrar, please.
19 Mr. Lausic, what I'm pulling up on the screen is in fact your 16
20 September report to General Cervenko on Operation Storm. You will recall
21 that the sequence of events that Mr. Tieger took you through this morning
22 included some meetings with the MUP on the 10th, the 13th, and the 15th
23 and some entries in that diary where one interpretation of the entry was
24 put to you.
25 I'd like to explore a different interpretation of what Mr. Moric
1 was talking about.
2 MR. MISETIC: If we could, Mr. Registrar, turn to page 8.
3 Q. I'm going to show you a portion that Mr. Tieger didn't show you
4 of this report.
5 I'm going is show you a few documents, Mr. Lausic, because I
6 don't want to spend a lot of time on this at the beginning, but if you
7 would -- it's page 8 in the English, paragraph 6.3. And in describing
8 the situation and how the military police was functioning, you wrote:
9 "In larger villages and towns and along major roads, constant
10 beat patrols ensured law and order, prevented torching and the
11 uncontrolled removal of war booty, and controlled the safety of military
12 road traffic."
13 6.4 says:
14 "Non-stop traffic security was provided to HV units withdrawing
15 from newly liberated areas. Security ensured for mobilisation assembly
16 points where HV units were demobilizing, and public law and order
17 maintained in places where official welcomes had been organised for HV
18 units in towns all over the Republic of Croatia
19 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could turn now to D1066.
20 Q. This is a report of the same day from the chief of the general
21 military police, Mr. Kozic.
22 You're familiar with Mr. Kozic, Mr. Lausic?
23 A. I --
24 Q. You know --
25 A. I beg your pardon?
1 Q. Tell us who Mr. Kozic was on the 16th of September, 1995.
2 A. Mr. Kozic, he was the chief of the general military police
3 department in the military police administration.
4 Q. Now, here's his -- after the meeting at Plitvice -- I'm sorry.
5 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, I'm hearing questions before the translation
6 is completed. That's all.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was listening to the French translation at
8 that very time.
9 Mr. Misetic, if you could try to adapt your speed.
10 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
11 Q. Now, this is Mr. Kozic's report the day after the meeting in
12 Plitvice. The chief of the sector for the general military police says:
13 "According to our assessment, the security situation in the parts
14 of the Republic of Croatia
15 the area of responsibility of military police units and within the
16 operation and assessment realm of the general military police is good and
18 That's on the 16th, Mr. Lausic.
19 Now, if I can take you to what you wrote to General Cervenko on
20 the 15th of August, I should say.
21 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar - one moment, please - this would be
22 Exhibit D292, please, on page 3. I'm sorry, it's ... page 13. I'm
23 sorry, Mr. Registrar. Paragraph 5.3, please.
24 Q. You wrote to General Cervenko:
25 "In larger places and towns, 24-hour patrols and beat service are
1 securing public peace and order, preventing arson and uncontrolled
2 removal of the spoils of war, and taking care of road traffic safety;
3 they are still securing major military depots in the liberated territory
4 of the Republic of Croatia
5 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to the next page, concerning
7 Q. In the conclusion section, you wrote:
8 "The preparation, planning, and engagement of military police
9 units, the command of joint actions with the HV SIS, Ministry of Defence
10 and Ministry of Interior, were at a high level and the problems were
11 solved as one went along. Therefore, we are of the opinion that units of
12 the military police of the armed forces of the Republic of Croatia
13 performed all their tasks relating to the preparation and execution of
14 the Operation Oluja."
15 Now, my question to you, Mr. Lausic, is when Mr. Moric is saying
16 that commanders think -- let me put my question to you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any translation?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to say that
19 if I did not have the original in front of me in the Croatian language
20 what I hear through my headset as a Croatian interpretation of the
21 extract read out by Mr. Misetic in English is completely different, so I
22 find this distracting. I find it hard to focus because what I hear as an
23 interpretation of what Mr. Misetic is saying differs from what I can see
24 written down in the Croatian text, and I find this distracting and
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What we perhaps best do is that you read from
2 the screen what this report exactly says because you will understand that
3 if someone is sitting behind a desk translating word by word that the
4 wording, the phrasing, might not be always be for the full 100 percent
5 the same compared to a translation which still could be an accurate
6 translation by interpreters who have to interpret immediately on the
7 basis of the reading of Mr. Misetic.
8 I further add to that, that the translation uploaded in e-court
9 is a draft translation and not a --
10 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- confirmed translation.
12 But perhaps if you read the original on your screen, that would
13 certainly enable you to know exactly what Mr. Misetic is quoting.
14 And I take it that those who speak and understand the language
15 will verify whether there are any major mistakes in the draft
17 Can you read it, please? I think what Mr. Misetic read to you is
18 found under the word "zakljucak" in the original, and apologies for my
20 MR. MISETIC:
21 Q. My question to you, Mr. Lausic, is, wasn't Mr. Moric really
22 telling you that you in fact weren't conveying the gravity of the
23 situation in reports such as this to the military commander?
24 A. First of all, I would like to respond -- or, rather, comment on
25 the report you presented, which was drawn up by Major Kozic and addressed
1 to my deputy, Brigadier Biskic.
2 Q. Do it in a concise manner because we have much material, as you
3 can see, to cover. But, yes, I will give you a chance to respond.
4 A. No problem. But I wanted to point out that the report you
5 presented to me by the chief of the General military police, Major Kozic,
6 is addressed to my deputy, Brigadier Biskic. And if you look closely at
7 the material I signed as the analysis of the use of the military police,
8 and if you look at the last page - that's page 11 in the original
9 document - and if you look at the initials at the bottom left-hand
10 corner, left -- left of the stamp and signature, it says MB/TH.
11 These are the initials of Marijan Biskic/the typist who typed out
12 the document, her initials, and from this one can conclude that it was my
13 deputy who drafted this document, based on the report from the chief of
14 the general traffic and crime military police department. I read it and
15 signed it as the report of the military police administration, but I did
16 not understand your question, actually.
17 Q. Well, first, regardless of who drafted it for you, I think you
18 yesterday used the metaphor of commanders being in a relationship of
19 parent and child. The persons that drafted were your metaphorical
20 children, Mr. Lausic, and I'm putting it to you again, what Mr. Moric
21 said at those meetings was that you - and by you, I mean the military
22 police of which you were most responsible - were not accurately reporting
23 to the military line about the gravity of the situation in the field.
24 And if you disagree with me, I'll show you any of these three reports or
25 the two that went to General Cervenko and ask where you say that the
1 military police is unable to execute its duties because the line of
2 command is not functioning.
3 A. I disagree with your opinion. I think the commanders were
4 sufficiently informed of the realities on the ground.
5 Q. You think that. But you agree that -- if they were informed of
6 the realities, they weren't informed by you.
7 A. You saw from the reports addressed to the chief of the Main Staff
8 and the other highest levels that this was my chain of reporting as the
9 chief of the military police administration.
10 Every day, they also received reports from the commanders of the
11 military police battalions in their areas of responsibility.
12 Q. Believe me, we're going to get to all of those reports that you
13 have referred to.
14 What I'm interested in right now is the top of the chain. The
15 top of chain, as you say, is you at the head of the military police
16 administration and General Cervenko as the Chief of Staff, and in these
17 reports, the written reports that you send to General Cervenko at the top
18 of the chain, never once do you indicate that units are in the field
19 burning and that the line of command needs to take action because the
20 military police cannot handle the situation.
21 Is that a fair statement about the content of these reports?
22 And, believe me, as the days go by, we will go into the specific
23 paragraphs of these reports. But, generally speaking, am I correct?
24 A. Mr. Misetic, the chief of the Main Staff and all the other
25 highest levels of command in the Ministry of Defence and the Main Staff
1 received a daily summary of security-related events, a daily bulletin
2 issued by the duty service of the military police administration, and in
3 this daily summary, there were segments dealing with the events that had
4 taken place in the past 24 hours. These segments were crime, breaches of
5 military discipline, traffic accidents, et cetera, et cetera.
6 So the chief of the Main Staff and the other highest-ranking
7 commanders in the Main Staff and in the Ministry of Defence were informed
8 through the daily bulletin and had precise data as to when, where, how,
9 by whom, all those seven questions that can be asked, all that was
10 encompassed by those bulletins.
11 My reports on the activities of the military police, the ones you
12 are quoting now, were something special linked to that period. The
13 bulletins covered the work and activities of the military police every 24
15 Q. Mr. Lausic, if I pause after you answer a question, it's not --
16 just so you are aware, it's -- I'm waiting for the translation, the
17 interpretation to catch up. You need to -- it's not because I'm
18 expecting you to continue with your answer, just so you're aware of that.
19 Mr. Lausic, that's fine, and believe me, probably for tomorrow
20 I'm going to print out all of those daily reports so that you have them
21 in hard copy and you can review them. But based on those daily reports,
22 I take it that we can conclude, based on the two general reports that you
23 submitted, that those daily reports are not going to show us that the
24 military police is unable to function or complete its tasks because if
25 that were the case, you would have put that in your two reports; correct?
1 A. I do apologise, but as interpreted, your question was that the
2 military police was incapable of carrying out its task.
3 Q. No. Let me repeat the question. What I'm saying is, those daily
4 reports are not going to show us that the military police was unable to
5 complete its tasks because if that were true, you would have stated in
6 your general reports to General Cervenko that, in fact, the military
7 police was not able to complete all of its tasks; correct?
8 A. These reports deal with the activities that the military police
9 was carrying out. For the military police to be more successful in its
10 activities, there would have been fewer events that they had to intervene
11 in, if the lack of discipline among the soldiers of the Croatian army had
12 been dealt with down their chain of command. To put it simply, we were
13 doing as much as we could with the resources available to us, but we
14 would have been more successful if the commanders down their chain of
15 command made sure that the soldiers reported the rules of service, the
16 rules of discipline, and other rules; and then we as the military police
17 would have been more successful because we would have had fewer events to
18 deal with in our activities.
19 Q. Let me wrap up this section for one minute.
20 Mr. Lausic, it's always the case that there's always -- you can
21 always do better. You can always have more discipline, even today. But
22 in terms of the reports that you were sending to General Cervenko, do you
23 agree with me that he never reported in those reports that there was
24 anything extraordinary taking place on the ground?
25 A. I would have to look at the reports day by day in order to give
1 you a precise answer to that.
2 Q. You feel free to do that if you have your book of documents. I'm
3 referring you to the two reports which are your reports and analyses of
4 Operation Storm. One is from the 15th of August; the other is with
5 another month's time to reflect on it from the 16th of September. In
6 those two reports, do you agree with me that you didn't report that there
7 was an extraordinary situation taking place on the ground.
8 A. Can I see that on the screen, please, because I can't find them
10 Q. In the interest of time, Mr. Lausic, I think you have them in
11 your binder. If you want to let me know after the next break if you have
12 found anything in those reports which would say there was something
13 extraordinary, I'd be happy to let do you it. But it will take us a bit
14 of time it flip through all of the pages on the screen.
15 Mr. Lausic, let me change topics for a minute.
16 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have 65 ter 478 on the
17 screen, please. I'm sorry. That is now, for the record, Exhibit P2189.
18 Q. Mr. Lausic, I'd ask to you take a look at this. This is your
19 order of the 6th of October, 1995, and the Chamber is aware of a killing
20 incident in the village of Varivoda
21 incidents that took place after Operation Storm, and if you take a look
22 at this order, you issued an order to create an operative action, and you
23 named it Varivoda.
24 MR. MISETIC: And if we could turn to the next page in the
25 English, Mr. Registrar.
1 Q. Do you have a copy of the document, Mr. Lausic?
2 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. I just wanted to clarify something so there
3 won't be any confusion. I think there may be a misunderstanding that all
4 -- about whether or not all of the documents that were on the
5 Prosecution's exhibit list were in Mr. Lausic's binder. I think he only
6 had a -- some of those documents. So it shouldn't be an assumption that
7 all of the documents on the exhibit list are available to him in the
9 MR. MISETIC: That's fine. If I could just -- in order --
10 because Mr. Lausic seems to be flipping through his binder looking for
11 documents. If the OTP could give us what he was given, and then I can
12 instruct him whether a document is in his binder or not. I think it'll
13 speed things up.
14 MR. TIEGER: I don't know if I have that handy, but I'll try to
15 get it as quick as possible.
16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
17 Q. Mr. Lausic, Mr. Tieger advises us that it's in fact not in your
18 binder, so you'll have to look at the screen in front of you.
19 Now, can you take a look at this. You wrote and, actually, on
20 the cover page you addressed it to the 72nd Rijeka Military Police
21 Battalion - the 71st, I'm sorry - the 72nd Split MP Battalion, and the
22 chiefs of MP administration sectors.
23 And in the preamble, you say:
24 "Through an analysis of the security situation ... we have come
25 to the conclusion that the security situation is not at the required
1 level, and in order to raise the general state of security, ... in
2 cooperation with the MUP, I am establishing operative action Varivoda."
3 And then it says how long the action will be in effect.
4 In paragraph 1, you name the officers who will be in the
5 commission, including three officers from the military police
6 administration. You appoint the commanders of the -- I believe it's the
7 3rd Company of the 72nd MP Battalion and 4th Company of the 72nd Zadar
8 Battalion and the commander of the company of the 72nd Knin MP Battalion.
9 At point 2, you order them to cooperate with the chiefs of the
10 police administrations in the area, perform an analysis --
11 "... on the ground, shall perform an analysis of the security
12 situation of the work organisation to date, and draft an operative plan
13 for the use of the military police and the police in the implementation
14 of operative action Varivoda."
15 You then identify what -- how long the shifts are going to be.
16 In paragraph 4, you tell them to use search dogs. Paragraph 5, you say:
17 "The commander of the operative action Varivoda team is
18 authorised to take all measures in order to have the level of
19 responsibility and performance quality of military and police tasks
20 raised to the highest level. The commander is also authorised to agree
21 on the tactical and methodological implementation of the operative action
22 with representatives of the RH MUP."
23 Point 6, you order that reports be sent through the operations
24 duty of the MP administration and a summary report at a meeting in the
25 MUP administration on the 11th of October. You see who it's addressed
1 to: the Minister of Defence, Assistant Minister Rebic, and Mr. Moric.
2 Now my first question -- let me wait.
3 What Article of the rules of the military police allowed you to
4 issue this order?
5 A. Article 8 of the rules on structure and work of the military
7 Q. In your order. You're getting involved in how long the shifts
8 are going to be, the use of dogs, how the reporting is going to go.
9 You're getting involved in operational matters in this case. What
10 rule of the rules of the military police allowed to get involved in
11 operational matters? And I also say that you then empowered the team
12 leader to draft the operative plan, the team leader being Mr. Kozic, who,
13 again, is from the MP administration in Zagreb
14 Where did you get the power to issue those orders and get
15 involved in operational matters?
16 A. If we go back to the beginning of the order, you see that it
17 refers to two MP units and three departments of the MP administration,
18 that is to say, to different organs within the structure. The order has
19 to do with a clearly defined action. The headquarters is determined, as
20 well as the tasks, means, tactics and methodology in the course of the
21 action as well as the way of reporting.
22 Q. Yes. This is an operation much like this exact same thing that
23 happened in Operation Storm; right, Mr. Lausic? You did the same thing
24 prior to Operation Storm. You sent down people from Zagreb, set up your
25 IZM, issued orders on what was to be done, how the reporting was going to
1 go; right? This is Operative Action Varivoda; that was Operation Storm.
2 A. I do not equate the two orders, the preparatory order for the
3 implementation of military police tasks in the course of Operation Storm
4 and the order on the establishment of Operative Action Varivoda.
5 Q. My initial question, Mr. Lausic, and let me get back to that, is
6 what rule of the military police rules allowed you to issue this order
7 for OA Varivoda?
8 A. I've already answered. It is Article 8.
9 Q. And -- you're right, and my next question was -- let me put it a
10 different way.
11 Article 8, then, also allowed you to get involved in how the
12 operation was going to be conducted; right? The methods, the tactics,
13 the reporting system, who was going to be involved, how many men, all of
14 those things you were allowed to do under Article 8; correct?
15 A. So that the military police with its equipment, staff, resources
16 and the best possible methods and tactics be as efficient as possible.
17 That is the strategic level of command and control.
18 Q. Well, there's also an operational level of command and control,
19 and if in fact this operation started to unfold in a manner that was
20 inefficient or that wasn't producing results, you had the power to issue
21 an additional order to fix whatever eventual problem would come up;
23 A. That is it what was done. By changing the methods and tactics of
24 the activities of the military police, by reinforcing or strengthening
25 certain parts or units of the military police, it was done continually,
1 as can be seen from all the documents that have been presented in the
2 course of the past two days.
3 Q. Well, Mr. Lausic, let me turn your attention to your statement,
4 which is P2159. And at paragraph 19, you talk about the passage of the
5 temporary instructions. You say in the middle:
6 "We gave general instructions referring to the organisation of
7 the military police, the speciality of the military police, the
8 setting-up of commanders in the military police, thus regulating the
9 vertical subordination in the military police and the horizontal
10 coordination of the work of the military police."
11 Did you find that in your statement, Mr. Lausic?
12 A. Could you please repeat the number of the paragraph in my
14 Q. Yes. It's paragraph 19.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. This is in your statement where you talk about the
17 concepts of vertical subordination and horizontal coordination, and let
18 me show you before I ask you a question on that topic.
19 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D66-0243.
20 Q. What I'm going to show you, Mr. Lausic, you probably don't have
21 in your binder, so you will have to look on the screen is your annual
22 report on the work of the military police for 1994, and we have an
23 excerpt translation.
24 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 1 in the English, please,
25 which is, fortunately, page 1 in the Croatian. It's numbered page 1, I
1 apologise, which is page 3 in the English, and numbered page 1 in the
2 Croatian version, which is page 2.
3 Q. Now, in this section you talk about the work that was done in
4 1994 with the military police, and this is now after the passage of the
5 1994 rules, and you say, at paragraph 3 -- this is the section, by the
6 way, titled: "General features of the structure, development, and the
7 work of the OS RH military police in 1994."
8 MR. MISETIC: If we go to paragraph 3.
9 Q. You wrote:
10 "The results, the level of organisation, and development of the
11 military police until the end of 1993 were the subject of analysis on the
12 MP administration level and the basis for determining the focal tasks in
13 the development of the military police in 1994 as following."
14 In point 3, there is:
15 "Strengthen and building the system of command and control
16 according to a vertical subordination and an operational daily system of
17 control according to a horizontal coordination."
18 Now, Mr. Lausic, explain to us the concept of vertical
19 subordination and daily operational horizontal coordination.
20 A. The question you have put is something that was quite troublesome
21 for all the commanders during the years I headed the military police, of
22 which seven were the war years. These rules from 1994 were in force
23 until 2004.
24 This question basically arose from the lack of wish to fully
25 comprehend what is vertical command and control and horizontal
1 coordination. That lack of understanding existed while the interim
2 instructions were in place that were put into force in January 1992. For
3 that particular reason, the military council of the Ministry of Defence
4 had to sit and the Minister of Defence personally had to explain the two
6 May I conclude my answer?
7 Q. I will let you conclude, but if you would first just specifically
8 tell me what it means, and then if it's necessary to go into the
9 background, I don't have a problem with it. But if you could first tell
10 us, what does it mean when you say vertical subordination and daily
11 operational horizontal coordination. How does that system work?
12 A. I have explained that in the course of the first day of my
13 testimony when answering one of Mr. Prosecutor's questions, when stating
14 what were the tasks of the MP administration as well as my authority
15 under Article 8, and Article 9 envisaged the right to implement daily
16 operational tasks in everyday activities to the various commanders of the
17 armed forces in Croatia
18 Q. I don't want you to repeat anything that you already said. What
19 I am interested in is, up until now, you have used the phrase that the
20 72nd MP would report according to their two verticalities, yet in 1994
21 you explained the concept as really one verticality and one horizontal
22 coordination. In fact, that's the way we should look at it structurally,
23 is that the MP battalion is coordinating its work under Article 9 but is
24 subordinated under the command and control of the chief of the military
25 police administration.
1 A. When performing regular military policing tasks, the Military
2 District Commander within whose establishment that unit is. The military
3 police battalion active in the given area of the Military District daily
4 received dozens of specific orders at various command levels within the
5 Military District. Such orders had to do with escorting military
6 convoys, requests to provide security, or other tasks that were within
7 the remit of work of the military police. That included daily
8 operational command of MP units in accordance with Article 9 and its
9 implementation. From the archives of the MP battalions as well as the
10 administration archives, I could show you thousands upon thousands of
11 such orders sent by all-level commanders, brigade commanders, Military
12 District Commanders, thus exercising their powers from Article 9 in terms
13 of daily operational command of MP units.
14 Q. I'm trying to get behind what that means, Mr. Lausic, and I'd
15 like to show you via Sanction --
16 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, a witness statement given to the OTP
17 and which obviously we will not be tendering into evidence, so I haven't
18 uploaded it into e-court.
19 Q. This is the statement given by Petar Stipetic who, as you know,
20 was -- took over command up in Sector North during Operation Storm, and
21 you referred to General Stipetic in your statement as a professor type.
22 You corrected that to say you didn't mean he was literally a professor
23 but that based on his knowledge, he was a professorial type of general.
24 And if we could turn the page in Croatian and in English.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have been out of the courtroom for a
2 while, so I'm not I recall the precise protocol for using statements of
3 perhaps-anticipated witnesses, but it's certainly not a practice I'm
4 accustomed to in my jurisdiction, and I thought at a minimum there was an
5 effort to elicit answers from the witness generally -- and the bottom
6 line, of course, is now the statement clearly won't come in. I'm not
7 sure what the purpose of using it now before a highly specific question
8 to which this -- to which an answer has been obtained and for which the
9 basic proposition for which this might be a good-faith basis is at issue.
10 Otherwise, we've got all kinds of -- it's one thing to put your
11 case to a witness. It's another thing to advance propositions generally
12 through statements that should properly be advanced through witnesses who
13 are going to be called.
14 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the guidance of the Chamber was that you
16 first asked the witness questions about a certain matter, and if there is
17 any need to then put to him that others may have given the same answers
18 or different answers, that you do that first.
19 MR. MISETIC: [Microphone not activated]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do not -- of course, the Chamber doesn't know
21 the statement, and the Chamber doesn't know what you'll ask the witness
22 about in relation to the statement.
23 Therefore, whether it has been properly dealt with first without
24 the statement, the Chamber wouldn't know.
25 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, the guidance may be clear. If the
2 previous questions were very much about concepts of subordination and
3 coordination, if that is what this statement relates to, then it can be
4 put to the witness. If not, then, of course --
5 MR. MISETIC: We've been here ten months. Every time we pull a
6 statement up, we get an objection that we have to go through the
7 procedure. By this point, I have been trained very well to know that we
8 have to go through the hoops. So based on the witness's last answer
9 about what types of daily orders they would give, it's on the transcript,
10 and that's the exact issue that I would like to put. In addition, the
11 concept of daily operational control I think for three days now has been
12 talked about extensively. So there's no risk of a new matter being put
13 to this witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first wait for your question and what portion
15 to be put to the witness.
16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, and I take it that you will be very
19 MR. MISETIC:
20 Q. Now, this was the question. Another unit was a military police
21 battalion. Were those battalions subordinated to the military police
22 sector in the Main Staff or to the Ministry of Defence? You can read it
23 on your screen, Mr. Lausic, and I'll skip over some of this, but he says:
24 "In the beginning, the military police battalions were under the
25 command of the Main Staff. One military police battalion was directly
1 under the Main Staff. Such standing has lasted only for two to three
2 months. Then President Tudjman decided that the administration of
3 military police must be established in the Ministry of Defence. Those MP
4 battalions which were under the command of the Main Staff before from
5 then on fell under the command of the Ministry of Defence. MP battalions
6 in the operative zones ..." which is another term for Military Districts,
7 "... stayed within the zones but because of the new centralised command
8 system, they were responsible to the military police administration in
9 the Ministry of Defence regardless that they are in the operational zone.
10 Whenever the commander of the operative zone needed military police, he
11 had to inform the military police administration in the Ministry of
13 There's another question about clarifying about giving orders, a
14 Military District Commander giving orders to a battalion commander, and
15 General Stipetic said:
16 "It should be normal for a Military District Commander to give
17 orders to a military police battalion commander, but before giving such
18 orders he would have to consult with the military police administration.
19 Independently, he can give minor tasks: Control of traffic, dealing with
20 drunk soldiers, providing security to transportation of some equipment,
21 et cetera. But larger engagement of the military police had to be
22 approved by the military police administration, and it's for the chief of
23 the military police administration of the Ministry of Defence to decide
24 whether to give additional forces to a Military District command [sic]."
25 Now, Mr. Lausic, that in fact is an accurate statement of how
1 things worked under the new system that you, in fact, were the proponent
2 of, which was that this concept of horizontal coordination meant that the
3 district commanders could use the military police for their purposes to
4 execute their tasks, but vertically the MP battalions were subordinated
5 to you; correct?
6 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. My only concern is this. Happy to have the
7 witness direct his attention to the document. I'm just concerned about a
8 question that seems simultaneously to ask about the accuracy of the
9 document and about this witness's positions about aspects of
10 subordination and coordination. So if those could be separated, no
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you split them up, Mr. Misetic.
13 MR. MISETIC: Sure.
14 Q. Mr. Lausic, the Military District Commander as a daily
15 operational command can issue orders to the MP battalions as you said by
16 the dozens, perhaps, for minor tasks like control of traffic, dealing
17 with drunk soldiers, providing security to transportation. But he
18 couldn't deploy the military police battalions throughout a significantly
19 large amount of territory without your approval; correct?
20 A. It is completely incorrect. Completely incorrect.
21 The problem of vertical subordination and horizontal
22 coordination, first of all, met with certain commanders who had
23 originated from the Yugoslav People's Army where the system of
24 coordination and command was set up completely differently with different
25 tasks. You should have asked that. General Stipetic, I was not a JNA
2 Q. What you're familiar with --
3 A. Let me continue, please.
4 Q. Sorry. It's actually an important point. You are familiar with
5 how the military police was structured?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, I -- the witness is answering the
8 question, attempting to get through the question. Then he's stopped and
9 turned to a different question. I think he should be permitted to answer
10 his question.
11 MR. MISETIC: Believe me, I want the answer to the original
12 question, but while he's on this point -- I think he knows and this is
13 precisely the point, and if necessary I'll take him to a document to that
14 effect --
15 Q. But the difference between the JNA system and the system you
17 A. If you would allow me to finish first.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Your question was very short. "Correct?" The
19 answer was it is completely incorrect. If you put a question in this way
20 to the witness, he may answer the question, and especially if he asks to
21 be allowed to continue, then to say: "Sorry. It is actually an
22 important point ..." and then put a different question to the witness is
23 not appropriate.
24 You may finish your answer, Mr. Lausic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, Mr. President.
1 Immediately after the interim instructions on the work of the
2 military police was put in place in January 1992, certain commanders of
3 the HV attempted to behave in opportunistic manner so as to use the newly
4 -- the existing system of command and control.
5 For that reason, the minister of defence in December 1992 held a
6 meeting of the military council. In attendance were the chief of the
7 Main Staff, General Tus, then all the other most senior officials. It
8 was at that meeting that command and control was discussed, in terms of
9 the military police. It was an item on the agenda of that meeting of the
10 military council. That happened because there was a misunderstanding on
11 the part of the commanders of the new system of command and control of
12 the military police.
13 At the meeting of the military council -- I will be brief. I
14 will respond in a single sentence, if I may, Mr. Misetic.
15 At the meeting, it was precisely determined what were the tasks
16 of the MP administration, which commands and controls all MP units
17 through the following items which I have specified in the course of the
18 first days -- day of my testimony. What follows in the text is that the
19 HV unit commanders or garrison commanders within whose area of
20 responsibility the specific MP unit is command MP units to execute all
21 military policing tasks in keeping the authority and powers of work of
22 the military police. They're also tasked with daily monitoring of the
23 work of the MP and notify the MP administration with the proposal of
24 measures to be undertaken by the administration so as to ensure efficient
25 functioning of the MP unit.
1 Immediately after --
2 Q. Mr. Lausic, that's more than one sentence. I'm trying to make
3 some progress here, Mr. Lausic.
4 A. You put a very serious question.
5 Q. I have additional documents that --
6 A. And I want to provide a serious answer.
7 After the interim --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lausic, we have to keep in mind that if we speak
9 at the same time, it will not be put on the record. If we speak too
10 quickly, that the interpreters have no possibility to translate, and if
11 you tell us that you'll be brief and respond in a single sentence where
12 many do follow, then that is a reason to invite you to focus your answers
13 very much on the precise question.
14 Perhaps during the break, the witness can think this over, and as
15 far as simultaneous speaking, you could do, as well, Mr. Misetic.
16 MR. MISETIC: May I show him one document before the break?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that would give us a more appropriate
18 moment for the break, then, please do so.
19 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Lausic, let me show you 1D66-0260. 1D66-0277.
21 This is from the 4th of July, 1995. It's your response to some
22 -- to an analysis by General Stipetic, and you took particular exception
23 to the portion where he analysed the structure of the military police,
24 and apparently in that document, General Stipetic -- you write:
25 "... once more brought to the attention the question of command
1 and control over the military police by stating the following ..."
2 And then General Stipetic wrote -- at point 2, he suggested that.
3 "The brigades and Home Guard Regiments should within their
4 composition have a military police platoon or, rather, to incorporate
5 military police platoons within the brigades and Home Guard Regiments
6 which would be placed under their direct command."
7 He additionally wrote:
8 "The current command and control system of the military police is
9 not effective and hinders the possibility of a more rapid engagement of
10 the military police because it requires the use of long indirect routes."
11 You responded:
12 "We feel that the remarks stated by Colonel General Petar
13 Stipetic are arbitrary and have no factual basis, and the grounds for our
14 opinion are as follows ..."
15 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn to the next page in English.
16 Q. You wrote towards the middle of that page:
17 "I would also like to emphasise that military police units have
18 until now and will in the future carry out all of their tasks in a
19 planned manner in the areas of combat activity according to the plans of
20 the 'engagement of military police units in their areas of responsibility
21 upon the commencement of actions by HV units.' The stated plans are
22 coordinated with the headings of the engagement of HV units and were
23 created in cooperation with the HV Military District Commands."
24 You then write in the next sentence:
25 "Regarding the proposal that military police platoons should be
1 incorporated at HV Brigades and Home Guard Regiments and placed directly
2 under the command and control of the commanders of the HV Brigades and
3 Home Guard Regiments, we had this type of structure until the beginning
4 of 1993."
5 And then you talk about how that was -- another system of command
6 and control was accepted:
7 "In 1993 and 1994, there was a restructuring conducted."
8 Now, it seems to me that the dispute there between you and
9 General Stipetic is General Stipetic wants military police units to be
10 under the direct command of military commanders, and you disagreed with
11 that. Is that an accurate representation of what this dispute was about?
12 A. No, not at all. The organisation of the military police --
13 Q. Let me ask you, then, a more specific question.
14 What type of system was General Stipetic advocating, and why did
15 you disagree with it?
16 A. The answer to your question requires us to go back into the past,
17 time permitting and by His Honour's leave. But briefly, I can say it's
18 contained in the first several points of my testimony, both in my suspect
19 interview and the transcript and in my witness testimony.
20 When the military police units in the first few days, when the
21 Croatian army was being created, were led directly by the brigade
22 commanders, the Crisis Staffs and all those who established some sort of
23 military police and many abuses of the military police or misuses were
24 registered. Military policemen were carrying out tasks not following
25 within the purview of the military police, and for this within the
1 president of the Republic as the commander in chief issued a decision on
2 a different organisation of the military police and established the
3 military police administration before I was appointed to that duty.
4 In the sector of security and intelligence of the Ministry of
5 Defence, the military police administration was established before I took
6 up my duty as its chief. It was only after my appointment that I set out
7 to do the work I have already described. This organisation was never
8 approved, nor does it exist today.
9 Now, a regiment of the military police --
10 Q. Let me ask you this again. What did General Stipetic want?
11 A. He wanted the same model that existed in the former JNA, for
12 every brigade to have a military police unit under the direct command of
13 that brigades commander who would be the only one receiving reports.
14 That was the situation we had in 1991 and 1992 in the war, and there were
15 some abuses. The flow of information was stopped. We had local
16 sheriffs, local power-holders, maybe brigade commanders and so on, and
17 this system was never implemented, although there was constant pressure
18 to have it restored.
19 Q. Last question before the break, Mr. Lausic. What does General
20 Stipetic -- what do you understand him to mean when he says that the
21 current command system is not effective because it hinders the
22 possibility of more rapid engagement because it requires the use of long,
23 indirect routes?
24 What does he mean -- what is the route that he is talking about
25 there as being a long, indirect route?
1 A. You should have asked him that. I'll tell you that with all the
2 commanders, first, of the operative zones while they existed and then
3 with all the commanders of a Military District, including your client,
4 General Gotovina, as soon as he took up his duties as the commander of
5 the Split Military District, I and my deputy held talks with them, at
6 which we directly explained the command and control structure of the
7 military police, and we always ended each such meeting by me saying, Sir,
8 whatever falls within the purview of the military police has to be
9 carried out by the unit which is part of your Military District, or
10 operative zone.
11 As soon as a battalion commander tells me he has been given a
12 task which he cannot implement for whatever reason, lack of resources or
13 whatever, these resources, vehicles, reinforcements will be provided by
14 me, but the task has to be carried out.
15 Q. We'll get into some of those decisions that you made either
16 accepting or rejecting General Gotovina's requests for military police
17 maybe tomorrow.
18 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I tender 1D66-0277 into evidence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No objections by Mr. Tieger.
20 Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1279.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Could the witness already be escorted out of the courtroom.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the temperature in this courtroom is
1 concerned, I'm usually not relying on Wikipedia, but I learned that a
2 sigh is an exhalation of air through stress, boredom, relief, tiredness,
3 longing, contentment, exasperation or disappointment. This Chamber
4 sometimes has difficulties in perfectly interpreting what kind of sigh we
5 hear, and there is, although I'm not referring to the context in which
6 those words are used, but Shakespeare, at least, used the phrase: "A
7 thousand thousand sighs to save..."
8 We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes past 6.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
13 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Mr. Registrar, could we please have on the screen 1D66-0262,
16 Q. Mr. Lausic, I'm going to show you an order of yours from the 3rd
17 of December, 1994.
18 This is the order where you establish the areas of responsibility
19 for the military police units, and you've addressed it to all of the
20 military police units.
21 And then if we could turn the page, please.
22 I'm interested in paragraph 7. It talks about the various units,
23 but obviously we're most concerned here with the 72nd Military Police
25 MR. MISETIC: And if we could go to numbered paragraph 7 in the
1 Croatian, please.
2 Q. Now, you write that the:
3 "... 72nd MP Battalion carries out military police tasks in the
4 area of responsibility of the Split Military District and the southern
6 "The commander of the 72nd MP Battalion is subordinated in daily
7 operational commanding to the commander of the Split Military District.
8 "Platoon and company commanders outside of the headquarters of
9 the 72nd MP Battalion command are subordinated in daily operational
10 commanding to the HV garrison commanders or the most senior HV commander
11 within their area of responsibility."
12 And then you have subordination of the 6th company to the
13 commander of the southern front.
14 Now, I'm trying to understand this structure, Mr. Lausic. It
15 seems that have you taken the commander of the 72nd MP Battalion and
16 subordinated him to the commander of the Split Military District, and
17 then the company and platoon commanders that are not in the headquarters
18 of the 72nd MP Battalion are subordinated to different commanders in
19 daily operational commanding, including the garrison commanders or the
20 most senior HV commander, within their area of responsibility.
21 Can you explain the multiple subordination of the units that
22 comprise the 72nd MP Battalion? I should say multiple daily operational
24 A. I don't think you are using the correct term. The units of the
25 military police or, rather, the military police of the Croatian army was
1 organised along the territorial principle. The logic was where the army
2 is, there is also military police there. The 72nd MP Battalion whose
3 headquarters was in Split
4 general police company, and a traffic company. There was one company in
5 Zadar, one in Sibenik, and I don't remember where the 5th Company was --
6 oh, yes, it was in Sinj, and the 6th Company was in Dubrovnik.
7 As the southern front existed at the time, which extended from
8 Ploce to Dubrovnik
9 out its daily operational tasks was subordinated to the commander of the
10 southern front. That was the so-called territorial organisation, which
11 is not unknown in the world. The German military police is still
12 organised along the same lines. We did not simply copy foreign
13 organisation but simply responding to the needs that we had in view of
14 the time and the territory. We organised this according to the logic of
15 wherever the army is there, the military police is also.
16 The companies had dislocated platoons. I'm not sure where the
17 72nd had those platoons, but I know that some platoons were dislocated in
18 some battalions.
19 If a company commander in Zadar received an order from the
20 commander of the Croatian army brigade in Zadar to carry out a military
21 police task, and to carry out that task he had insufficient equipment,
22 men, resources, vehicles, and so on, and the task fell within the purview
23 of the military police, he would apply to the commander of the 72nd
24 Battalion, asking for help, and he would be provided with the requisite
25 men, vehicles, and so on, and the task had to be carried out.
1 Q. Okay. This -- that at the end is what I went to get into. You
3 "The company commander in Zadar receives an order from the
4 Croatian army brigade in Zadar."
5 Does that mean that, under the order that's on the screen, that
6 the company commander in Zadar was subordinated for daily operational
7 purposes to the commander of the Croatian army brigade in Zadar?
8 A. It would depend on who the most senior officer was. If Zadar had
9 a Military District Commander, or as we know from the instructions we saw
10 yesterday on the establishment of Military Districts, they could be
11 appointed by name, or it could just be the most senior officer in the
12 area. In any case, that would give the right to the most senior officer
13 in Belgrade
14 police as described in Article 9 of the Rules of Service of the Military
16 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I think the city referred to there was
18 in the transcript.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You referred to Beograd rather than to Belgrade
20 Mr. Lausic?
21 MR. MISETIC:
22 Q. Beograd
23 A. I mentioned neither Belgrade
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll read the line:
25 "In any case that would give the right to the most senior officer
1 in ..." and where did you locate this most senior officer?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zadar, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: In Zadar, "... to use his right to command the
4 military police as described ..."
5 It's now on the record.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Now, structurally speaking -- and we've heard some expert
9 testimony here about the need and the principle of unity of command.
10 Now, if -- let's take as a hypothetical that the highest-ranking
11 commander in Zadar is the commander of the brigade. The company of the
12 military police in Zadar, then, the commander of that company, would have
13 been subordinated for daily operational purposes to the commander of the
14 brigade in Zadar; but what I don't understand is there would appear to me
15 to be multiple lines of command here because the company commander is
16 also answerable to the 72nd MP Battalion commander. The brigade
17 commander has his own line of command that would go to the Split Military
18 District. There's another line that goes to you in the police
20 Now, if -- who is commanding -- there's a lot of commanders here
21 that seem -- if it's as if you say, there are a lot of commanders here
22 who seem to be able to all issue their own orders to the military police
23 company commander in Zadar, and if you could explain that, please.
24 A. It's very simple. The purpose and aim of such an organisation
25 and the basic reasons for Article 8 and 9 are the following: Everything
1 that falls within the purview of the military police has to be carried
2 out, and there must be no delay in carrying out the task because there is
3 a lack of men, resources, vehicles, and so on.
4 Secondly, abuses in the use of the military police have to be
5 prevented. The military police must not be used for purposes not falling
6 within the purview of the military police as had happened in the first
7 wartime years, and this is actually what prompted the changes in the
8 previous organisation, when a platoon commander, for example, who was a
9 member of a brigade, was responsible only to the brigade commander,
10 carrying out whatever he was ordered to do regardless of whether it fell
11 within the purview of the military police or not, and let me remind you
12 that today in Croatia
13 of such units who did things they shouldn't have done.
14 Secondly, the report on the fact that a commander in Zadar had
15 carried out a task on orders from the commander of a certain unit - in
16 this case, the brigade which was in Zadar - would reach the commander of
17 the 72nd Battalion, and the battalion commander would know what the
18 company commander had done, whether these tasks fell within the purview
19 of the military police, whether he had had any problems with lack of men,
20 resources, equipment, and so on or not.
21 So everything that fell within the purview of the military police
22 had to be carried out; secondly, there should no misuse of the military
23 police; it should not be made to do things which do not fall within their
24 job description; and, finally, the tasks -- everything had to be reported
25 up the military police hierarchy.
1 Q. Now, isn't one of the benefits to the system that was put in
2 place in 1994 the fact that there was now an architecture put in place, a
3 system where there was centralised means of being able to issue orders to
4 the various military police battalions, companies, platoons, in order
5 have some consistency in coordination in terms of what the different
6 companies and platoons would do in a given situation?
7 A. By whom? The battalion commander? When commanding the companies
8 that were part of that battalion.
9 Q. Let's take Operation Storm as an example. Operation Storm
10 involved the liberation of territories that crossed the boundaries of the
11 Split Military District, went to the Gospic Military District, the Zagreb
12 Military District, the Karlovac Military District, but if you wanted to
13 have the military police all operating consistently across those Military
14 Districts, who is the person that can achieve that? Having one plan
15 all-coordinating, how can that be affected?
16 A. I must confess that this is a very unclear question. It was all
17 defined precisely in the order on the preparation of forces of the
18 military police for Operation Storm, the so-called preparatory order.
19 Q. And who issued the preparatory order?
20 A. It was presented here yesterday or the day before, and you could
21 see that I signed it.
22 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, if could I tender 1D66-0262, please.
23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, no objection in principle. However,
24 it's a partial translation. I, you know, presume that the untranslated
25 portions don't have any relevance to the issues raised here, but I think
1 we need an opportunity to look it over.
2 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need?
3 MR. TIEGER: We'll do that by court tomorrow, I think. We'll
4 look it over quickly, and if there's any -- if Defence can assist if they
5 have any -- if they know specifically what those previous items in the
6 order are and can illuminate, that would help as well. It doesn't have
7 to be now.
8 MR. MISETIC: I can just tell him. There are just for the
9 different military police battalions across Croatia, who they're
10 subordinated to. I didn't think it was relevant to this case, but ...
11 MR. TIEGER: And I don't doubt that. Just a matter of due
12 diligence. We'll look it over. We'll respond tomorrow.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's be practical. We decide already on
14 admission because there is no objection, but there's an opportunity for
15 the Prosecution to ask the Chamber to revisit the matter. Would that
16 be a ...
17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because we have no real objection.
19 Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1280, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D1280 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I'm also reminded that I failed to
23 tender 1D66-0262, which is the annual report prepared by Mr. Lausic for
24 1994 of the military police.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
1 MR. MISETIC: It's also a partial translation. I don't know if
2 they also --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Same procedure?
4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
5 MR. MISETIC: Sorry. I gave the wrong number. 1D66-0243.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that'll become Exhibit D1281.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D1281 is admitted into evidence with the same
9 proviso as with the previously document.
10 Mr. Tieger, since we're doing bookkeeping anyhow, earlier today
11 you said that 65 ter 3343 was on the Excel sheet. I had difficulties in
12 finding it, but there was no objection from the Defence. It was not on
13 your 65 ter --
14 MR. TIEGER: I'm grateful for that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] -- ter list, you said, but it
16 was on the Excel sheet, you said, and ...
17 MR. TIEGER: I apologise for the oversight. I'm grateful it came
18 into evidence. I will simply say that the representation that was on the
19 sheet was based on -- was actually based on checking beforehand. I guess
20 the information I received was wrong, but it wasn't --
21 JUDGE ORIE: You get some message at this moment, so perhaps it's
22 better ...
23 MR. TIEGER: Well, I can -- the message I get at the moment is
24 that at least at a minimum, it was provided to the Defence by e-mail
25 before Court. As far as being on the Excel sheet, I may have been wrong
1 about that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. But there were no objections, so there's
3 no need to decide on the matter. It's just, again, that the Chamber
4 encourages the parties to be as precise as possible in whatever
5 information they give to the Chamber.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Lausic, if I could take you to Exhibit D267, please.
9 This is the 2nd of August order you prepared and issued to the
10 military police battalions. If I could take you to, first, paragraph 10
11 of this document, and you were shown this yesterday.
12 Concerning Mr. Juric, it says you appointed Mr. Juric and a group
13 of officers from the regular VP section and the VP crime section to
14 assist in commanding and organising the activities. And then in the last
15 sentence there in the middle paragraph:
16 "The commanders of the 72nd VP Battalion and 73rd VP Battalion
17 shall be subordinated to Major Ivan Juric."
18 If we go to paragraph 12, please. This was, again, a discussion
19 about the reporting system:
20 "Within the daily operational chain of command ... it shall be
21 subordinated for the commanders of the military police" -- sorry.
22 "... the commanders of military police battalions ... shall be
23 subordinated to the commanders of Military Districts ..."
24 And then if we can turn the page in English. You order that the
25 commanders of the 72nd VP Battalion and 73rd VP Battalion are to submit
1 their reports to Major Juric who shall report to the VP administration.
2 My first question is, Mr. Lausic: Why weren't the daily reports
3 enough? Why did you issue an order for reports from those officers that
4 you sent in the field to first be sent by the battalion commanders to
5 your officers and then to you rather than to the Military District
6 Commander? Why not just rely on the daily reports?
7 A. It is regular practice in all police forces of the world applied
8 to the military police of the Republic of Croatia
9 that entailed that each every operative action, whether it be a combat
10 operation as was this case, or be it an operative action such as the one
11 in Varivoda where the focus was to improve the situation with law and
12 order and crime in a given area, or whether it concerns providing
13 security to an official, such as the President of the Republic or some
14 other action.
15 Once the tasks in the course of the action had been undertaken,
16 as regulated by orders, reporting is also mentioned on the completion of
17 tasks. But this does not go against a system of daily reporting on the
18 completion of all tasks that fall within the scope of authority of the
19 military police.
20 Q. Why wouldn't you also, then, tell Major Juric, Send a copy to me
21 but you should be sending your reports to General Gotovina, let's say?
22 It's an operative action. The reporting by your officer in the field
23 according to the order goes to you. You don't even say, And copy the
24 Split Military District Command. What would --
25 A. There was no need. Major Juric, much as Major Cvitanovic and
1 Colonel Kozic, all of whom were at forward command posts as I've
2 explained yesterday, it is they that I delegated part of my authorities
3 to them based on Article 8. They were my eyes and ears in the field, so
4 to say, in the course of the action. Major Juric received reports from
5 the commander of the 72nd and the 73rd Battalion and then sent a compiled
6 report to me. The commanders of those units forwarded their respective
7 orders to their Military District Commanders.
8 Q. Why different reports? Why weren't you satisfied to just receive
9 a copy of the daily operational reporting that was going to the Split
10 Military District? In other words, I don't understand why either you
11 didn't just rely on the same report that would go in the regular daily
12 report or, alternatively, with this extra report that you ordered to be
13 prepared by 8.00 every night, that you didn't say, And this second report
14 should also be copied to the Military District Commander.
15 Why are there different reports?
16 A. The Military District Commander receives reports from the
17 commanders of the brigades, which are within his AOR. The commander of
18 the forward command post of the MP administration, in this case,
19 Major Juric, compiled reports that came from the 72nd, 73rd Battalion
20 commanders plus their own -- or his own remarks. He was my forward
21 command post commander. He was my eyes and ears in the field. I wanted
22 to hear from him whether there were any problems in implementing tasks,
23 in the functioning of command, whether he needed additional forces and so
24 on and so forth.
25 Q. Let's go back to paragraph 5, if we can, in this order.
1 Now at paragraph 5, you talked about how you're at the strategic
2 level. Let's talk about the operational level. You write:
3 "A plan of unit's engagement at the start of combat operations
4 shall be worked out in detail on the level of the VP battalions,
5 companies, and platoons in all areas of responsibility, which will
6 include setting up strong check-points with the task of preventing [sic]
7 unauthorised and uncontrolled entrances [sic] into the zones of combat
8 operations ..."
9 If we go to paragraph 6, the second sentence. You go further,
10 and you say -- and you refer to an order that was issued on the 1st of
11 May, 1995, and you say:
12 "The tasks under item 2.2 shall be only performed at large
13 cross-roads for the purpose of directing traffic in the area, and after
14 the HV members reach certain lines and take defensive positions, strong
15 check-points shall be set up at the access and exit roads of the defence
16 zone without the presence of RH MUP members. It shall be ensured" --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. ...
18 MR. MISETIC:
19 Q. "It shall be ensured that the military police members take
20 vigorous actions and perform the tasks in accordance with the authority
21 of the armed forces military police."
22 Why does paragraph 5 put it on the level of the VP battalions,
23 companies, and platoons to work out their plan of engagement rather than
24 the commanders to whom they are operationally -- daily operationally
1 A. It is it logical that a battalion commander, based on the
2 information given to him by the Military District Commander, in the
3 preparation for an operation as regards the deployment of forces, axis of
4 attack, and everything else that may come his way as information, drafts
5 his implementation order precisely in detail, describing everything
6 referred to in item 5.
7 Q. What I'm interested in none of those orders that I could find in
8 terms of before and during Operation Storm that come to you and say, Go
9 to your commander to whom you're daily operationally subordinated to get
10 a plan or get instructions on what you're supposed to do.
11 And if I could show you another document in this line.
12 MR. MISETIC: It's 65 ter 3134, Mr. Registrar.
13 Q. Again, an order from you to all the military police units, dated
14 the 2nd of August, and these are now specific instructions: Military
15 police treatment of foreigners and media representatives when they are
16 visiting a protected building or when they want to enter areas of war
17 operations. You order:
18 "While performing everyday military police tasks concerning
19 security, patrol service check-points are in contact with foreigners.
20 For the purpose of the same military police member's treatment of the
21 above-mentioned persons, I hereby order..."
22 It says:
23 "MP members who are performing tasks are obliged to enter the
24 aforementioned and visitors book."
25 Paragraph number 2:
1 "In the event that foreigners are caught near a secured building
2 (at a place where they're not supposed to be), taking photographs of the
3 secured building or observing it, military policemen should approach
4 them, take away the camera, fill out an LS 01 form, and hand the person
5 [sic] over together with the camera or video camera to a SIS officer."
6 MR. MISETIC: Turn the page in the Croatian, please.
7 Q. Paragraph 3 talks about confiscating photographs and videos.
8 Paragraph 4:
9 "Military policemen at the check-points shall fill out an LS 01
10 form for all foreigners and allow them into the area of war operations
11 only with the approval of the SIS officer ..."
12 MR. MISETIC: In the interests of time, I have one more document
13 to show, but if I could tender this. It's a 65 ter exhibit,
14 Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to ...
16 MR. MISETIC: Tender it. Yes, Mr. President.
17 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then, Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit D1282, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
21 MR. MISETIC: If I could have Exhibit D269, Mr. Registrar.
22 Q. This is, again, an order of yours from the 3rd of August.
23 MR. MISETIC: And if we can turn the page.
24 Q. You can see that this is the order on the work of the military
25 police issued on the 3rd of August.
1 Now, you ordered all the military police units -- and if we
2 could, for example, go to paragraph 1.1. Actually, paragraph 1 talks
3 about making contact with the police administration chiefs and the
4 commanders of the police stations - these are the civilian police - in
5 the zones of responsibility and agree on joint work on tasks.
6 1.1 is establish strict check-points.
7 1.2 -- if I could turn the page first, thank you - follow the
8 advance of the RH armed forces in the depth of the liberated territory.
9 1.3: In populated places by means of joint patrols, ensure law
10 and order and everything else as listed in point 1.2. The RH MUP will
11 take over the security of vital buildings.
12 1.4: At bigger intersections in liberated areas, establish joint
13 check-points in order to regulate traffic and provide security for HV and
14 civilian columns.
15 It goes on, and I won't repeat it all.
16 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn the page and go to paragraph 3,
17 numbered paragraph 3.
18 Q. Now, you ordered:
19 "Women, children, and the elderly from liberated areas shall be
20 handed over by members of the military police to the nearest police
21 station in the liberated area of the Republic of Croatia
22 station in the free territory of the Republic of Croatia
23 being made of the persons handed over and signed by the person taking
24 them over in the RH MUP police station.
25 "VP unit commanders shall brief all levels of command in VP units
1 and all members of the military police on this order during the night and
2 ensure that it is implemented."
3 And it's signed by you, copied to many, including the Military
4 District Commanders.
5 Now, would you agree with me that many of the points that you
6 have in this order are points that are covered by Article 10 of the rules
7 of the military police? The tasks. The tasks that you've outlined here
8 are tasks identified in Rule 10 of the Rules of the military police;
10 A. Article 10? It refers to the scope of authority and the tasks of
11 the military police, enumerating the tasks and duties of the military
12 police. However, in the preamble, it is also mentioned that joint action
13 be introduced in terms of tactics and methodology that would be applied
14 across all MP units. I also asked for energetic efforts across all
16 Q. I agree with you, and that's the point I tried to make with you
17 about an hour ago, maybe less, about the centralised system and getting
18 uniform application in the field of what needed to get done. But things
19 like what military police were supposed to with civilians that they
20 encountered or confiscating cameras and video recorders or setting up
21 check-points, coordinating with the civilian police, those are all tasks
22 under Article 10 that you ordered pursuant to your powers under Article
23 8; correct?
24 A. It is correct. But we are not talking about micro-locations of
25 the check-points. I don't know what the pace of advancement was to be.
1 This was all to be provided in daily operational contact from the
2 Military District Commander or some other organisational part of the
3 Croatian army and followed upon.
4 What I prescribed was a unified methodology and tactics of
5 activity, joint action, energetic efforts as well as cooperation with the
6 colleagues from the Ministry of Interior. All of those things were
7 agreed upon at the strategic level. When you showed the first order that
8 had to do with reporters, civilians, and others, that was ordered by the
9 assistant minister for security and intelligence affairs, Mr. Rebic.
10 Based on information he received from SIS and political affairs officers
11 about uncontrolled entry of journalists and civilians, some of them were
12 killed or injured. I can only recall -- I can recall one example of a
14 meeting which had been held at the highest level with our colleagues from
15 the Ministry of Interior.
16 Q. Let's take two documents right now and see if we can admit them
17 into evidence before we break for the day.
18 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have 65 ter 437, please.
19 Q. Now, this is the order issued by the 72nd Military Police
20 Battalion commander pursuant to the order we just saw on the screen.
21 Essentially -- we don't need to go through it point by point
22 because essentially what Mr. Budimir, the commander, did was copy your
23 order, and he says he's acting pursuant to the order issued by you and
24 passes that order down to his subordinate companies in the 72nd Military
1 MR. MISETIC: If we could turn the page, please. One more page,
2 I'm sorry.
3 Q. You can see in the original that Commander Budimir doesn't copy
4 the Military District Commander on what he's ordering. He gets your
5 order and he executes it.
6 Now --
7 MR. MISETIC: If I can just have a moment.
8 Mr. Registrar, if I could have -- actually, if I could tender
9 that right now, Mr. President. It's a 65 ter.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: This document, I'm informed, appears on a Bar table
12 list for which I agreed that the -- Mr. Registrar would assign
13 provisionally numbers, and that has been sent to the OTP for
15 MR. MISETIC: For the record, we have no objection to the
16 admission of that document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's already on the record.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. MISETIC: Okay. At the risk of calling up another one that's
20 on the Bar table list, Mr. Registrar, if could I have 65 ter 380, please.
21 Q. Now, this is a report prepared by the company commander,
22 Mr. Grancaric, of the military police company in Zadar, and he is
23 reporting on the 4th that there was a meeting held on the 3rd of August,
24 1995, on the premises of the 3rd Company of the 72nd Military Police
25 Battalion with Major Ivan Juric who issued certain orders in connection
1 with the HV's activities in the zone of responsibility of the Zadar
2 operations group:
3 "After receiving tasks, I established contact with the commander
4 of the operations group, Colonel Mladen Fuzul; commander of the 134th
5 Home Guard Regiment, Major Cerina; chief of the SIS -- sorry, of the
6 security subcentre of the Zadar SIS, Mr. Turkovic; and chiefs of the
7 Zadar-Knin police administration."
8 Now, in the December 1994 exhibit that I showed you earlier, one
9 of the points was that they were, in the 72nd MPs, subordinated to the
10 local highest-ranking commander, and at the end of the document it said
11 that they were also required to coordinate with the police -- the
12 civilian police and the SIS.
13 And Mr. Grancaric here appears to be acting, he says, pursuant to
14 orders that were issued to him by Major Juric, which was the person, as
15 you've labelled him, your eyes and ears in the field, and you testified
16 the person to whom you delegated some of your authority under Rule 8. He
17 went then, and according to him, he established contact with the
18 Commander Fuzul of the operative group Zadar.
19 Now, is this an example of when we talk about or use phrases like
20 vertical subordination and horizontal coordination, that he received his
21 orders that went from Major Juric whose line went directly to you, but
22 he's working with the local highest-ranking commander, Mr. Fuzul, to
23 accomplish the regular military police tasks, the daily police tasks that
24 a local commander may need to use the military police for?
25 A. I must admit, I don't understand the gist of your question. On
1 the 3rd of August, the highest-ranking officer of the Croatian army
2 became the commander of operative group Zadar, and that is Colonel Fuzul.
3 The commander of the military police company, Mr. Grancaric,
4 established contact with the then-highest-ranking commander, conveyed to
5 him what he had received as a written order from his battalion commander,
6 and we have already seen that, and also what -- what Major Juric had told
7 him. I don't know what Major Juric had told him, what orders he had
8 issued to him. You'd have to ask Mr. Juric that, but I assume he only
9 explained orally the order which the commander of the 72nd Battalion
10 actually copied from my order. Everything else Mr. Grancaric, the
11 company commander, in contact with the operative group chief, the chief
12 of the SIS, and others did, and this is acting according to the rules.
13 He was acting according to the rules and according to the order issued by
14 the battalion commander.
15 Q. We agree on that. But what I'd like to -- what we're interested
16 in here is -- and if I can put to you this way, and it's a hypothetical,
17 but Mr. Grancaric gets an order -- I'm going to assume that he received
18 the order that you issued on the 3rd about check-points and where
19 civilians were supposed to be taken, et cetera, and he is then also
20 meeting with Mr. Fuzul who is the operations group commander and who is
21 by no means in your chain of command.
22 Now, am I right to say that if Commander Fuzul issued an order to
23 Mr. Grancaric and said, You are ordered to ignore General Lausic's order,
24 we are not setting up any check-points anywhere, that would have been an
25 unlawful order issued by Mr. Fuzul; correct?
1 A. First, I don't like answering hypothetical questions; and second,
2 Mr. Grancaric, the company commander, would not be failing to obey my
3 orders but the orders of his commander, the commander of the 72nd
5 Q. Well, you at your level, you insist that your orders when you
6 issue them, like you did on the 3rd, are implemented all the way down;
7 correct? I mean, if we were to look at military structure, if the
8 commander below you doesn't execute the order, we have a problem; right?
9 Let me also put a little twist on it. You said the 72nd MP
10 commander. What Mr. Grancaric reported was not that he got the order
11 from the 72nd Military Police Battalion commander, but that he got the
12 order from Major Juric. And again, let me ask the question, or put it to
13 you this way: Colonel Fuzul could not issue an order that would
14 contradict the order that you passed down, whether it went through
15 Major Juric or whether it went through Mr. Budimir; correct?
16 A. You mean a military police task?
17 Q. The tasks that you ordered that we looked at, those documents
18 right now. Let me repeat it again. For example, setting up
19 check-points. I used that as an example.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Colonel Fuzul could not issue an order that would contradict your
22 order to set up check-points; correct?
23 A. That he should issue the order that check-points not be set up?
24 But the commander of the battalion had to carry out my order, setting up
25 check-points. The micro-locations and everything else would come from
1 the -- from Grancaric, in this case, and he would get it from the
2 commander of the operative group.
3 Q. Last question for the day, and it's not only the commander of the
4 72nd MP that had to carry out your order. It was Major Juric that also
5 had to carry out your order that you issued to him; correct?
6 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. I don't think that is precisely a correct
7 recap of what the witness was saying about who had -- which orders had to
8 be carried out.
9 MR. MISETIC:
10 Q. Mr. Lausic, let me be clear. You issued orders to Major Juric,
11 and we'll look at them tomorrow. Those orders that you issued to
12 Major Juric, they had to be carried out; correct?
13 A. The issues had been -- the orders had been issued. If you don't
14 expect your orders to be carried out, it's better not to issue them. You
15 expect an order you issue to be carried out.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lausic.
17 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, that's it for the day.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
19 Mr. Lausic, I give you -- could you please keep your earphones on
20 when I give you again the instruction not to speak with whomever or to
21 communicate in any way with anyone in relation to your testimony, whether
22 already given or still to be given.
23 We'd like to you back tomorrow in the afternoon in this same
24 courtroom at a quarter past 2.00.
25 We adjourn for the day, and we --
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. Just very
2 quickly, two matters I have been asked to place on record, that the
3 Prosecution's two Bar table submissions were distributed via e-mail to
4 everyone, and also I wanted to report to the Court that I do think 3343 I
5 believe can be found at the very bottom of that Excel spreadsheet.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I failed, I believe, to tender the
8 exhibit on the screen. I think it's a 65 ter as well.
9 MR. TIEGER: I don't believe that's on the pending list and
10 there's no objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1283.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D1283 is admitted into evidence.
14 Mr. Tieger, you must have a Excel sheet different from mine.
15 We'll not spend more time on it in court at this moment.
16 We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, the 29th of
17 January, quarter past 2.00, this courtroom.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of
20 January, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.