Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15383

 1                           Thursday, 29 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Mr. Lausic, I would again like to remind you that you are still

13     bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

14     testimony.

15             Mr. Misetic will now continue his cross-examination.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           WITNESS:  MATE LAUSIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lausic.

22        A.   Good day.

23        Q.   Before we pick up where we left off yesterday, I'd like to ask

24     you a question about your meeting with Brian Foster on Sunday.  I believe

25     you mentioned that Mr. Foster gave you some documents on Sunday; is that

Page 15384

 1     correct?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Could you tell me where this meeting took place?

 4        A.   In the hotel where I'm accommodated, in the lobby.

 5        Q.   And could you tell me how long the meeting took place?

 6        A.   The handing over the documents was very brief.  It was only a

 7     technical matter.  There was no explanation as to what it was about, but

 8     then we spent a pleasant hour chatting about our experiences in the

 9     police, our respective experiences in our previous lives.

10        Q.   In the course of this conversation, did the topic of your status

11     in this case, or your status generally, I should say, whether you were a

12     suspect or witness, was that discussed at all during that conversation?

13        A.   No, not once.

14        Q.   Did -- was there any conversation about why the OTP wanted to

15     videotape or tape, I should say, an interview with you last week?

16        A.   No, no.  Not for a moment.

17        Q.   And, finally, did you have any conversations with anyone who

18     offered you an explanation as to why your conversation was being

19     video-taped?  I should say taped.  I'm saying video-taped.  I mean audio-

20     or video-taped.

21        A.   Could you please be precise about the time you're referring to.

22     When would I have had a conversation about that?

23        Q.   At any time during or after the time you were asked to sit with

24     the Office of the Prosecutor for another meeting in January of 2009, did

25     anyone from the Office of the Prosecutor or your attorney tell you why

Page 15385

 1     your interview with them was going to be taped?

 2        A.   No.  Except for the 20th of January, as I stated on the first

 3     day, in a telephone conversation through an interpreter with Mr. Foster.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I was a bit confused if you look at

 6     your screen, page 2, line 17.  It gave the impression as if the

 7     conversation on that Sunday was taped.  It says, "was taped" instead of

 8     later you used different language.  You said at a later stage, you said,

 9     "was going to be," whereas, in this line, you say, "was video-taped."  So

10     I was a really confused about --

11             MR. MISETIC:  I'm referring to the fact that, Mr. Lausic, was

12     supposed to be interviewed last week.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Yes.  I'm not a native-speaking person I was

14     confused by that language.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Finally, during this conversation with Mr. Foster, did you have

18     any conversation about the subject of your testimony?

19        A.   Are you referring to this meeting on Sunday, in the hotel?

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   No, no not for a moment.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             Referring to your diary, which is P2166 - we don't need it on the

24     screen, Mr. Registrar - just some background questions.

25             Mr. Lausic, do you have the original version of your diary with

Page 15386

 1     you?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Is it in The Hague?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Do you have the ability to get it, in Zagreb?

 6        A.   Yes.  In Zagreb, I can, yes.

 7        Q.   How did you go about giving your diary to the Office of the

 8     Prosecutor?  Did you give the diary to them directly?

 9        A.   No.  When preparing for my suspect interview in May 2004, I had

10     some 20 days to prepare, and this diary, or, actually, my work book,

11     which I've been keeping continually, and I still do, I make a note of my

12     daily activities; and that's an aide-memoire I used to remind myself of

13     the times and events to be discussed at the interview.

14             As in that diary, as you call it, there are also personal notes

15     which refer neither to my activities in the Ministry of Defence or any

16     other official business, but purely personal matters.  Whatever in that

17     diary referred to my activities as chief of the military police, all the

18     meetings, contacts, and other notes concerning those duties, I copied and

19     I had it certified so that at the interview in May 2004, I showed this to

20     the investigators.  Then they asked me to sign, which I did, that the

21     copy was faithful to the contents of my original diary, and this is the

22     material that is in the file.

23        Q.   Mr. Lausic, would you be willing to provide us with the copy of

24     the original diary, at least for the relevant time-period that we're

25     talking about here; let's say, for 1995?

Page 15387

 1        A.   Could you be more precise as to what from the copies should be

 2     photocopied and delivered to you?  You can make your request, and I will

 3     mark the parts that are personal.  But whatever has been copied, I can

 4     photocopy in the original and submit to you or to any of your colleague,

 5     either in the Defence or in the Prosecution.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President I propose that if we can towards the

 7     end of this session or beginning of the next talk about it outside the

 8     presence of the witness, but I don't want to spend time on it right now,

 9     if that's okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems okay to me, yes.

11             MR. MISETIC:

12        Q.   One final question on your diary, was it -- did you ever turn

13     over your original diary to any institution of the Republic of Croatia?

14        A.   No.  Nobody ever asked me to, except in August, when I had an

15     interview with the investigators as a witness in connection with

16     Operation Medacki Dzep, and where I was on particular dates and these are

17     matters I couldn't recollect during the interview in May; so I brought

18     along the original diary and showed them the relevant pages; and that's

19     how they were able to check that the copy I had given them was correct.

20     But they didn't ask me to hand it over to them, nor did I ever hand it

21     over to anybody else.

22        Q.   Okay.  Hopefully the real final question on this topic.

23             Did you ever feel obligated under Croatian law to turn the diary

24     over?

25             MR. TIEGER:  Objection, Your Honour.  I'm not aware of the

Page 15388

 1     relevance this has to this particular proceeding.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I think it is highly relevant to the proceeding.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps not a matter to be discussed in the presence

 4     of the witness.  I must -- I beg your pardon.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  We can save the discussion for the break.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  At the end of the break.  At the end, just before

 7     the break, yes.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar if we can now turn your attention to

 9     matters that we left off yesterday.  Mr. Registrar, if I could have

10     1D66-0153, please.

11        Q.   Mr. Lausic, if you look on the cover page here - this is not in

12     your binder, I'm pretty sure - this is a systemisation of work posts in

13     the military police administration.  The proponent is you, and it was

14     approved by the minister of defence, and the date is November 1994.

15             Do you remember this document?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. MISETIC:  If we can turn the page in English, and I believe

18     it is page 9 in the Croatian.  Yeah, it's number 1, right.  Item number 1

19     on the systemisation.

20             Page 2, yes.  Okay.  Sorry, it's page 2 in the B/C/S.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Lausic, at item number 1 it's the job description for

22     the chief of the military police administration, and in the job

23     description that you wrote, it says:

24             "Responsible for the work of the MP administration and MP units,

25     and commands and controls MP units of the armed forces of the Republic of

Page 15389

 1     Croatia."

 2             Now, you drafted this in November 1994, but it was also true in

 3     August of 1995 that you were responsible for the work of the MP

 4     administration and the military police units; correct?

 5        A.   In accordance with Article 8 of the rules of the organisation and

 6     the work of the military police, yes.

 7        Q.   So I'm correct?

 8        A.   What it says here.

 9        Q.   Yes.  But I know what it said here in 1994.  I'm saying that was

10     the case in August of 1995 as well.  You were responsible for the work of

11     the MP administration and the MP units; correct?

12        A.   The document is valid until it is rendered null and void and

13     until a new systemisation is adopted.  To the best of my knowledge, in

14     1995, we did not adopt a new systemisation, so this one was still in

15     force.

16        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'd like to turn your attention, if we could

17     go in the English to page 28, please, which is item number 35.  I think

18     it is also page 28 in the Croatian.

19             MR. MISETIC:  17 in the Croatian, I'm sorry.

20        Q.   Now --

21             MR. MISETIC:  I'll wait for the English to come up as well.

22        Q.   This is the job descriptions for the military police crime

23     investigation department, and for the chief of the MP crime investigation

24     department, the description is:

25             "Analyses and observes emergent forms of criminal behaviour and

Page 15390

 1     plans operative, preventative, and repressive measures in view of

 2     preventing criminal behaviour; organises and leads the entire work of the

 3     crime investigation MP of the Republic of Croatia.  He is responsible for

 4     the activity of the crime investigation military police regarding crime

 5     prevention within the jurisdiction of the military court; provides expert

 6     help and directly participates in most complex actions and processing

 7     activities."

 8             And finally:

 9             "He organises the coordinated work with other security elements

10     within the security system of the Republic of Croatia."

11             Now you have said already that this was in effect in 1995.  Do

12     you recall who the chief of the MP crime investigation department was in

13     August 1995.  If you could hold your answer.

14             Mr. Lausic --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the chief of the crime

17     investigation military police department in August 1995 was Major

18     Spomenko Eljuga, but I can't be absolutely sure of that, although I think

19     I'm right.

20             MR. MISETIC:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could go to page 33 in

21     the English and page 20 in the B/C/S.

22        Q.   Now, within the crime -- the military police crime investigation

23     department, there were various sections; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   If you look at page -- at the screen in front of you, there's a

Page 15391

 1     description for the head of the section for the prevention of criminal

 2     offences against general safety, and you can look at his job description:

 3             "Analyses and observes emergent forms of criminal behaviour

 4     related to general safety; plans the carrying out of operative,

 5     preventative, and repressive measures and actions aimed at the prevention

 6     of this form of criminal behaviour; subordinate to the department chief

 7     of the crime investigation military police in matters regarding the

 8     prevention of criminal offences against general safety in the territory

 9     of the Republic of Croatia."

10             Do you recall who the head of the section for prevention of

11     criminal offences against general safety was in August 1995?

12        A.   I couldn't be precise, and I don't wish to speculate.

13        Q.   Do you recall if it may have been Ante Glavan?

14        A.   It is a possibility, but I can't be precise.  Forty years have

15     passed --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Fourteen, interpreter's correction.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Have passed since then.

18             MR. MISETIC:

19        Q.   Now, in terms of subordination, the head of the prevention of the

20     section for prevention of general offences is subordinated to the chief

21     of the crime investigation MP, who is then subordinated to whom?

22        A.   To me, as the chief of the administration.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now was it the same organisational structure within the

24     battalions themselves?  In other words, there was within the battalions a

25     chief of the crime investigation section and then within that section of

Page 15392

 1     the battalions, were there separate -- I'm sorry, the crime investigation

 2     sector and then separate sections within the crime investigation sector?

 3        A.   As I -- in the same way that I have the systemisation on the

 4     screen, could I please have the establishment manual of a battalion on

 5     the screen?  And then I can tell you for certain.

 6             There was always a section of the crime police, but I can't be

 7     precise about its structure, numbers and so on.  But since have you the

 8     systemisation, you can also have the establishment manual put up on the

 9     screen, and then I can be more precise.

10        Q.   Okay.  Well, if necessary, I will retrieve that but for right

11     now, I think we will have plenty of documents to go through.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I tender this exhibit into evidence,

13     which is 1D66-0153.

14             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become exhibit D1284.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, I could have 1D66-0153, please.

19     Sorry.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, just for clarification, I understood

21     that Mr. Misetic was referring to the systemisation of work posts.

22             MR. MISETIC:  So did I it.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Which seems to be 1D66-0182, according to the copy

24     that was distributed to us.

25             MR. MISETIC:  That can't be because I'm looking at the -- might

Page 15393

 1     be the English.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  That's right.  And actually we need to be careful

 3     with that because I noticed that problem from yesterday's transcript and

 4     documents as well so this --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  The original is always the one we call up with the

 6     1D number, the translation not, so that is the practice we have been

 7     using throughout the trial.

 8             Now, Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit D409, please.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Lausic, this is the exhibit that we discussed or you

10     discussed under examination by Mr. Tieger.  Discussed that Minister Susak

11     said the military police must be more energetic in its actions and

12     prevent all offences, but I'd like to call your attention to page 6 in

13     the English.

14             And -- I'll wait for the Croatian version, which is ...

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. MISETIC:  Page 4 in the Croatian, please.

17        Q.   Now --

18             MR. MISETIC:  If we could scroll down to the bottom, please.

19        Q.   Your notes indicate at 1730 that there was meeting where

20     Minister Susak, Minister Jarnjak, Assistant Minister of the MUP,

21     Mr. Moric, and - if we could turn the page, please - obviously you as the

22     person taking notes were present.

23             What was the purpose of that meeting?

24        A.   I would just like to make a correction.  I did not keep notes for

25     the purposes of the meeting.  I was keeping my notes in my work book.  I

Page 15394

 1     was not the person who was supposed to keep a record of the meeting.

 2        Q.   What I was suggesting was even though your name doesn't appear

 3     there, that's because these are your notes, and so you wouldn't have put

 4     your own name as being present at the meeting.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page in Croatian, please, and

 6     one back in the English.

 7        Q.   Now, again, my question was:  What was the purpose of the meeting

 8     that was held at 1730 hours on the 2nd of August?

 9        A.   I apologise, the letters are too small.  I would like to refer to

10     my paper copies.  It is difficult for me to follow on the screen.  I

11     don't have the right glasses for that.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Does Mr. Tieger might know where the entry in his

13     book is.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, I just don't know how it's organised.  I

15     think the witness would probably have a better idea about that at this

16     point.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In any case, I will do my best.  I

18     can see better now.

19             MR. MISETIC:

20        Q.   Just without -- Mr. Lausic, let me before we start reading the

21     notes, we can read the notes.  I'm just asking, generally speaking, do

22     you have a recollection of why that meeting was called?

23        A.   I was invited by Minister Susak to go to his office where I found

24     Mr. Jarnjak and his assistant, Mr.  Moric.

25        Q.   And when you arrived, what did you come to learn was the purpose

Page 15395

 1     of the meeting?

 2        A.   As you can see, the first note says Minister Susak.

 3        Q.   No, no.  As I said, we can read the notes, but what is the

 4     purpose of the meeting?  Was it to coordinate the work of the military

 5     and civilian police?

 6        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 7        Q.   And if you see what Minister Jarnjak --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  If we can scroll to the bottom in the Croatian.

 9        Q.   Or Minister Jarnjak right above the entry for 1815.

10             Now, Minister Jarnjak says women and children in one group and

11     men to reception centres in the zones of each of the six police

12     administrations.

13             And yesterday we saw that you had issued an order about where

14     women and children were supposed to be taken.  Was your order about where

15     to take women and children based on what was discussed at this meeting at

16     1730, on the 2nd of August?

17        A.   Yes.  I also have to remind you, that after this meeting, on the

18     3rd of August, in the Ministry of Interior, there was a coordination

19     meeting of the civilian and military police at the highest level, where

20     that was one of the topics that was discussed.  The conclusion of the

21     meeting is what I translated into my order to the military police as to

22     how to treat the civilians.  It was expected that in the area of combat

23     that that area will be abandoned by the civilians residing there moving

24     towards the free territory.  Some reception had to be organised in

25     accordance with the instructions provided.  Women and children, as well

Page 15396

 1     as the elderly were supposed to be taken as one group, and men separated

 2     to another, and then processed in order to establish whether they

 3     participated in any combat against the Republic of Croatia.

 4             It was expected that in the combat area the civilians residing

 5     there would begin leaving it, moving towards the free areas.

 6        Q.   Now, this coordination meeting that took place on the 3rd, was

 7     that something that was also discussed at this meeting on the 2nd.  In

 8     other words, was there a discussion at the meeting between

 9     Minister Jarnjak and Minister Susak about the fact that there should be a

10     coordination meeting the next day between you and Mr. Moric and your

11     associates?

12        A.   The meeting with Minister Susak was a brief one.  I don't think

13     it lasted for more than half an hour.  And then Mr. Moric and I agreed to

14     meet the next day.  If you follow it up, you will see that at 6.15 p.m.,

15     I held a collegium meeting of the MP administration, whereupon I conveyed

16     to my associates the information of that day.  I also told them that we

17     were to meet the next day in the Ministry of Interior with our colleagues

18     from that ministry.  That was the further development.

19        Q.   Actually I wanted to go next to the meeting at 1815 the

20     collegium, and the first entry in your notes is:

21             "Till now there has been a discrepancy between the orders decided

22     and the working meetings held and the way in which these orders have been

23     executed in the field."

24             It says:  "Not energetic enough in approach."

25             The entry:  "Not energetic enough in approach," it somewhat calls

Page 15397

 1     to mind Minister Susak's earlier comment in the day that the military

 2     police must be more energetic in its actions.  And then it says you've

 3     identified three teams, the third of which is the team Split, team leader

 4     Major Juric.

 5             Now these teams, they were created precisely because as you state

 6     initially in your notes for 1815 that there was a problem between the

 7     content of the orders and the execution in the field.  And you wanted

 8     these teams to be able to actually fully execute the orders as you were

 9     issuing them; correct?

10        A.   Yes, it is.  At the beginning of the collegium meeting, after I

11     briefed the chiefs of departments and sections, I pointed out the

12     conclusions after the analysis which followed Operation Flash in May that

13     year.  I reminded them of the facts we established during that analysis.

14     That is also somewhere in the documents that I received as a copy of my

15     diary.

16             The basis of it was that when personally observing

17     Operation Flash in May 1995 and when touring the field, I noticed that

18     the military policemen involved as well as their commanders were not

19     sufficiently energetic in certain situations; when they came across HV

20     members while looting, or breaching discipline in other ways.  I noticed

21     that their tactics and methodology was lacking, and that they were not

22     economising with the resources and personnel that they had.

23             On the basis of those conclusions which we drafted together after

24     the analysis of Operation Flash and the participation of the military

25     police in it, I decided, given the scope of Operation Storm and the area

Page 15398

 1     it was to encompass, and given the larger figures of HV and military

 2     police members who were to participate in it, to establish three forward

 3     command posts of the military police.

 4             The first forward command post was to be located with the

 5     Military District forward command post in Ogulin; then in Sisak, that is

 6     the military district of Zagreb; and the third one was in Sajkovici where

 7     there was the forward command post of the Split Military District.

 8        Q.   If we could now turn to D267.  I don't want to go through this

 9     again.  We've seen it twice, I think.  But this is the order, again, of

10     the 2nd, about preparations and this is the order - if we go to

11     paragraph 10, which is page 4 in the English -- page 5, I'm sorry.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Actually, I'm sorry, it's page 4, paragraph 10,

13     page 2 in the Croatian.  If we could turn the page in Croatian, please.

14        Q.   This is again the order where you appoint, formally appoint

15     Major Juric and you write that:

16             "The commanders of the 72nd VP Battalion and 73rd VP Battalion

17     shall be subordinated to Major Ivan Juric."

18             This was that -- let me ask you first this question.  This order,

19     was it written after the meeting at 1815, after the collegium?

20        A.   Yes, it was.  However, the order on dispatching Major Juric to

21     the forward command post of the MP administration is a separate order.

22        Q.   Yes, I got that as well, Mr. Lausic.

23        A.   In that separate order, we see Major Juric's tasks defined.  It

24     is also mentioned, therein, that Major Juric, within the system of

25     command, is superior to the commander of the 72nd and the 73rd Battalion

Page 15399

 1     of the military police in that part of the tasks which have to do with

 2     the assistance provided to the 72nd Battalion by the 73rd Battalion of

 3     the military police.

 4        Q.   We'll get to that document.  But first I want to take you to

 5     P2172, please.

 6             And if you scroll -- this is the order that appointed

 7     Colonel Kozic to head the IZM forward command post in Ogulin for the

 8     Main Staff.  As we can see in paragraph 1, it was issued on the 2nd of

 9     August.

10             MR. MISETIC:  And if we can turn the page and scroll down in the

11     Croatian.

12        Q.   I just want you to note that terms of the tasks that you defined

13     for Colonel Kozic, it says:

14             "With regard to daily operations command, he is subordinate to

15     the Main Staff forward command post commander in Ogulin."

16             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go to Exhibit D268, please.

17        Q.   Now, this is the order that you were referring to earlier.  And

18     if we look -- if we turn the page - this is also the 2nd of August - we

19     can actually leave it right there, I'm sorry, in the English.

20             It says -- here's where you appoint a group of military police

21     administration officers led by Major Ivan Juric including the following

22     officers, then you name them.  From the general VP department Mr. Muduna

23     and then senior-lieutenant Ante Glavan.  And I asked you before do you

24     recollect that Mr. Glavan was, in fact, at that time the section chief

25     for the prevention of criminal offences against general safety.  You

Page 15400

 1     recalled appointing him as the section chief to go down with

 2     Major Juric's team?

 3        A.   I don't think that is correct.  I said I could not recall who the

 4     chief of section for the prevention of crimes directed at endangering

 5     general safety was.  I remember Mr. Glavan, but as for whether he was the

 6     chief of the section, that I don't know.  This was a mixed team headed by

 7     Major Juric.  I can see from here that there was someone from the crime

 8     police, traffic police, as well as regular duty police.

 9        Q.   But you do remember that Mr. Glavan was from the crime police

10     section; correct?

11        A.   Yes, quite right.

12             MR. MISETIC:  If we could, in the English, turn the page, please.

13        Q.   Now you write:

14             "In the command system he is superior to the commanders of the

15     72nd and 73rd with regard to the 73rd extending assistance to the 72nd

16     Battalion?"

17             And then the next entry is:

18             "He is responsible for the implementation of all military police

19     tasks in the 72nd Military Police Battalion zone of responsibility?"

20             What that language means is that he is responsible for all -- for

21     the tasks that are defined in Article 10 of the 1994 rules; correct?

22        A.   All tasks relating to the scope of work of the military police.

23        Q.   Which, again, if you disagree with me, let me know; but I think

24     you've said already is defined in Article 10 of the rules; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15401

 1        Q.   Now, you also say:

 2             "He shall cooperate and coordinate nature the implementation of

 3     tasks with the workers of Zadar-Knin police administration, the Split

 4     Military District assistant for SIS chief of the SIS centre in Split, and

 5     HV commanders in the Split Military District, and north operative group

 6     zones of responsibility."

 7             Now, again, is this horizontal coordination between Mr. Juric and

 8     the various other branches of the Croatian government that you have

 9     specified in that order?

10        A.   Could you please be more specific?  Is your question whether that

11     model functioned, or something else?  You're asking me whether

12     Major Juric indeed implemented the tasks referred to in the order, or are

13     you asking me something else?

14        Q.   Let me put it a different way.

15             Major Juric was supposed to coordinate with commanders of the

16     Split Military District; correct?

17        A.   With the commanders of the Croatian army, within the area of

18     responsibility of the Split Military District, and the

19     Operational Sector North.

20        Q.   Well, Operational Sector North the reason it adds that is because

21     that Operational Sector North at that time was in Bosnia at that time;

22     correct?  Yes.  Have you to --

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   The next entry you have is:

25             "He authorised to undertake all measures to ensure efficient and

Page 15402

 1     effective implementation of military police tasks in the 72nd Military

 2     Police and north operative zone -- operative group zones of

 3     responsibility."

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And then the reporting shall be pursuant to a separate order that

 6     you had issued which we've seen before that reports had to go at

 7     8.00 p.m. to you; correct?

 8             One more point on this document.  You copied the Split Military

 9     District commander on this order, so he should have been informed about

10     what you were instructing Major Juric to do; correct?

11        A.   You can see from the document that it was indeed sent to the

12     commander of the Split Military District.

13        Q.   Why didn't you subordinate for daily operational purposes

14     Major Juric the way you subordinated for daily operational purposes

15     Mr. Kozic to the commander of the Main Staff forward command post?

16        A.   The Main Staff of the armed forces of the Republic of Croatia,

17     and its forward command post in Ogulin, did not comprise any military

18     police, unlike other Military Districts.  It was for that reason why I

19     appointed him to the forward command post of the Main Staff.  There were

20     Main Staff officers who, operatively speaking, did not have any

21     subordinated MP battalions.  That is why I appointed Major Kozic to that

22     forward command post and subordinated him to the commander of the forward

23     command post of the Main Staff.  You can also see from the document that

24     he was superior to the commanders of the 70th and 71st Battalion.  Those

25     were the battalions of the Military Districts of Gospic and Karlovac.

Page 15403

 1             Major Kozic was sent to the forward command post of the

 2     Main Staff because there was no MP battalion there.  And Major Juric was

 3     sent to the forward command post of the military police attached to the

 4     forward command post of the Split Military District, which had its own

 5     72nd MP Battalion.

 6             The same order applied to Major Cvitanovic, who was at Sisak, the

 7     forward command post of the Zagreb Military District, which had its own

 8     67th MP Battalion.

 9        Q.   Was the intention to give the Main Staff forward command post the

10     ability to utilise major Kozic in the event they needed military police

11     assistance?

12        A.   To shorten the communication path, had I not done that, the

13     commander of the forward command post of the Main Staff would have to

14     communicate through the Main Staff in Zagreb, and then to reach me in the

15     end.  This way, we had an officer from the MP administration with the

16     authorities delegated by me.  Since he was subordinated to the commander

17     of the forward command post of the Main Staff, he could deal with the

18     problems that had to do with MP police tasks immediately.

19        Q.   So is it correct then, based on that answer, that

20     General Gotovina could go to Mr. Budimir for daily operational tasks, but

21     that if he wanted to get to Major Juric, it would have had to go through

22     you, in the military police administration, send a request, and then have

23     you send an order to Major Juric; correct?

24        A.   No.  There was the commander of the 72nd Battalion, who in terms

25     of daily operational command was subordinated to him, and he could use

Page 15404

 1     the commander of the 72nd Battalion, and then through Major Juric, to ask

 2     for assistance from the MP administration.

 3        Q.   No, no, no.

 4        A.   That is stated --

 5        Q.   That's not what I am saying.  Not that he wants to seek

 6     assistance from the MP administration, but rather, to put it simply,

 7     General Gotovina can't issue an order to Major Juric?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, that's -- I just want to draw a line.

 9     The witness was completing his answer.  The -- the intervention by

10     counsel was not for the purpose of --

11             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, it was.

12             MR. TIEGER:  -- sort of stopping an answer that was not

13     responsive but instead disputing the answer.  And the answer needs to be

14     completed.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if I may respond.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. MISETIC:  I think have you given us clear instructions, it's

18     page 15295 lines 18 to 24.  If there's anything that he thinks that I

19     haven't clarified with the witness, he is free to do it in redirect.  My

20     question was not - and I think he was confused - how to get assistance

21     from the military police administration which is evident as to what he

22     was getting at.  My question was the opposite, which was to get

23     assistance from Major Juric, and that's what I want to focus on.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, if Mr. Misetic has serious reasons to

25     believe that the witness misunderstood his answer then he is entitled to

Page 15405

 1     put it again.

 2             Could you please repeat your question --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  I will be very precise.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 5             MR. MISETIC:

 6        Q.   I think my last -- the way I rephrased the question is precise.

 7             Pursuant to the order appointing Major Juric, General Gotovina

 8     doesn't have the authority to issue him a direct order; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.  But through the commander of the 72nd

10     Battalion, as mentioned in Article 12 of the order, under preparation of

11     the units of the MP, to carry out police tasks which we saw on the

12     screen.  In item 12, which mentions the system of command and reporting

13     in the last paragraph.

14        Q.   That's what I said.

15        A.   It says the following:

16             "All requests and needs from the administration of the military

17     police, the commander is referring to the MP commanders, should request

18     these through the officer of the military police.  Those other commanders

19     of the forward command posts of the military police administration except

20     for the 66th MP and the 74th Battalion" -- or, rather:

21             "Company of the military police attached to the air force, who

22     submit requests directly."

23             So the commander of the 72nd Battalion was authorised through

24     Juric to submit all requests concerning reinforcement, replenishment,

25     equipment and so on.  This was the usual way in which requests were sent

Page 15406

 1     to the MP administration.

 2        Q.   That all may be true, Mr. Lausic.  That has nothing to do with

 3     what I asked you, however.

 4             Just to follow up on that point.  There would be no reason for

 5     General Gotovina to issue a request for more people for Mr. Juric to use;

 6     right?

 7             If Mr. Juric wanted more people, Mr. Juric would ask you

 8     directly.  He doesn't need to wait for General Gotovina to tell him that

 9     he should request from you more personnel.

10        A.   Different people can see the same situation differently.  It

11     depends on how each one assesses the situation.

12        Q.   I'm not sure I understand that answer, but ...

13             Let's move on.

14             Mr. Glavan was part of this forward command post that you set up.

15             MR. MISETIC:  And if we can go, Mr. Registrar, to P979 please.

16     Now, this is a document authored by Ante Glavan.  And if we can go to the

17     end to assist Mr. Lausic first and then we'll come back to the end of the

18     document.  I'm sorry, to the signature page.  And one back in the

19     Croatian, please.

20        Q.   If you see the signature of Ante Glavan and he signed it

21     department chief.

22        A.   Could we zoom in a little, please.

23        Q.   On the signature, please.

24        A.   Yes, it's all right now.  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

25        Q.   Does that refresh your recollection that, in fact, Mr. Glavan was

Page 15407

 1     the section chief, or department chief, I should say?

 2        A.   Evidently, as it's in the signature.  But here you can see that

 3     somebody signed it for Mr. Ante Glavan.  This is not actually his

 4     signature.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  Now if we can go back to the first page

 6     please.  Actually you can also note there is no courtesy copy there, I

 7     hope you saw, to the Split Military District Command.

 8             Now it is send to the military police crime investigation

 9     department, stand-in-chief, Captain Spomenko Eljuga.  And the subject is

10     report on activities undertaken by the military crime police for 12

11     August 1995 at 8.30.

12             Then it goes through, and we won't take up a lot of court time

13     with this, but the document basically talks about the different

14     processing of prisoners of war that was taking place in the various

15     companies on the ground.

16             You'll - as I said - note that this report only goes to

17     Mr. Eljuga.  And then if we can then take a look and see some of

18     Mr. Eljuga's report.  But, again, this is Mr. Glavan while he was still

19     working in the forward command post in the Split Military District.

20             If we can go to D852, please.

21        Q.   This is for 5 August, and I know the font is small, Mr. Lausic,

22     so we'll try to blow that up for you.

23             This is it Mr. Eljuga's report within the military police

24     administration.  It is his operative report on the 5th of August.

25             Now, who is this report being prepared for?  To whose attention?

Page 15408

 1        A.   I see that he addressed it to Colonel Ivanovic, an officer from

 2     the military police administration.  Maybe the heading is on the second

 3     page at the end, where all the addressees are listed.  And it says in the

 4     title:  Action return.

 5        Q.   Well, what was action return?

 6        A.   I think it referred to the return of our refugees who had fled

 7     from the areas which were now liberated, but I'm not absolutely sure.

 8        Q.   Now is it -- and you can flip through it if you wish.  This is it

 9     Mr. Eljuga putting together the various reports from the crime sections

10     in the various forward command posts, putting them in one report within

11     the military police administration; correct?

12        A.   Well, I'd have to read it very carefully to understand what it's

13     about and confirm or not confirm what you're asking me.

14        Q.   Okay.  But let me see if you agree with me.  Mr. Glavan who was

15     sent as part of Mr. Juric's team as a crime military police officer would

16     report to Mr. Eljuga and then Mr. Eljuga -- who was in Zagreb; correct?

17     Mr. Eljuga would have been in Zagreb at that time?

18        A.   Yes.  But can we please go back to Mr. Glavan's report, and on

19     the second page, you can see that he delivered the same report to the

20     chief of the department of the crime military police of the 72nd

21     Battalion.  He sent them a copy.  If you go back to that document.

22        Q.   That is correct.  But the crime police section chief then would

23     report up his chain of command, up to the crime section, if necessary, in

24     Zagreb; correct?

25        A.   Correct.  That's the vertical line, along the professional line,

Page 15409

 1     and he also sent it to the -- his professional line of the 72nd

 2     Battalion, and they would send it to the battalion commander, and also

 3     the commander of the Military District, and all other instances that had

 4     to be informed.

 5        Q.   Let's test that assertion of yours because you keep repeating

 6     that, Mr. Lausic.  If we can go back then, and let's actually test your

 7     theory.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to -- if we can go to P979, please.

 9        Q.   Now, this is it from the 12th of August, and can you flip through

10     this at will, Mr. Lausic.  But let's take a look at the first two pages.

11     They're pretty much the same substance.

12             MR. MISETIC:  If we can scroll down in the English.

13        Q.   Now, for example, the Zadar Company:  A total of 49 persons were

14     admitted at the collection centre for prisoners of war following

15     operative processing; zero persons were taken back to the reception

16     centre; 4 are undergoing medical treatment.

17             MR. MISETIC:  If we can turn the page, please.  The Croatian as

18     well, please.

19        Q.   "In Sibenik, there are present a total of 25 persons, members of

20     enemy formations at the collection centre for prisoners of war."  Goes on

21     and on and.  The last paragraph under Sibenik:  "There are still only

22     five persons in the reception centre for civilians."

23             If we can go to Sinj, Mr. Lausic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Scroll down in English, please.

25        Q.   "In the course of August 11, 11 new prisoners were brought to the

Page 15410

 1     prisoner of war collection centre in Sinj."

 2             This is it what Mr. Glavan is generally reporting about is

 3     prisoners of war, and now you keep trying to make the contention that

 4     somehow the crime section of the 72nd MP would put information in a daily

 5     report to the Split Military District Command, so let's take a look at

 6     the 12th of August, which is the date of this report and see what

 7     exactly, what kind of information was going in these daily reports that

 8     you keep referring to.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  So, Mr. Registrar, if we could have 65 ter 6984,

10     please.

11        Q.   Daily report:  "On the 12th of August, Zadar military police

12     received" -- sorry, Zadar VP with the number received a report from a

13     Mr. Vidaic a waiter in a restaurant in Zadar.  That one member of the HV

14     is pulling a gun on the guests in restaurants.

15             Describes in great detail what they did.  They identified the

16     soldier, again in Zadar.

17             MR. MISETIC:  If we can turn the page, please.

18        Q.   In Split, this is point 2, I believe.

19             MR. MISETIC:  It's the next page in the English.  Sorry, page 3

20     in the English.

21        Q.   A second incident -- if we can turn the page in Croatian as well,

22     please.

23             On the 12th of August in Split, the Split VP received a report

24     from Miletic that there had been some shooting by HV members at Obalak

25     Kineza Domogoja [phoen] Street in Split.  Someone was sent down to do a

Page 15411

 1     report.  Some guns were taken out, Zippo lighters.

 2             The next entry is:  Breaches of provisions of the rules on

 3     military discipline for the 12th of August, no events recorded.  Other

 4     incidents.  Is there anything here that catches your eye, Mr. Lausic,

 5     about what General Gotovina learned on the 12th of August from a daily

 6     report, shooting in Split, intimidation in a restaurant in Zadar.  There

 7     is no information in these reports about prisoners of war being

 8     processed.  Do you agree with me?

 9        A.   Mr. Misetic, the processing of prisoners of war does not fall

10     under the heading of crime.  If a prisoner of war, after being processed

11     was tried -- was actually charged because they were grounds to suspect

12     that he had committed the crime of armed rebellion that then would

13     constitute a crime.  But this is a standard report on the sort of

14     incidents that have to do with grounds to suspect is that someone has

15     commit at crime.  Whether members of the Croatian military are

16     perpetrators or victims.

17             Mr. Glavan's report which you showed me is report dealing

18     exclusively with the reception and processing of prisoner of war, which

19     he did together with his colleagues from the Ministry of Interior.  And

20     it was delivered also to the military crime police department of the

21     72nd MP Battalion because they investigate these people, but it would not

22     be reported under the heading of crime.

23        Q.   We agree 100 percent on that, Mr. Lausic, and the only reason I

24     brought this issue up right now is because it was you who said that this

25     type of information that was in Mr. Glavan's report would have gone to

Page 15412

 1     the crime section of the battalion and then would have been reported in

 2     the daily report to the Split Military District Command.

 3             Now, I have all the daily reports that were sent to the Split

 4     Military District Command for the months of August and September; and at

 5     a later point in my examination we will go through all of those reports

 6     and we'll see exactly what type of information the military police was

 7     sending to the Split Military District command.  But I can tell you, and

 8     Mr. Tieger will correct me if I'm wrong, the substance of the reports

 9     isn't much different than what we have seen on the screen.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I don't know if this is part of the

11     bar table submission or not, but I would tender this, if it's not.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, I think it is part of the bar table

14     submission, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then no objections, Mr. Misetic.

16             MR. MISETIC:  No objections.  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

17             Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit D794, please.

18        Q.   By the way, Mr. Lausic, we had that daily report on the screen.

19     It would have been one of the normal jobs of the military police if there

20     was a breach -- a noted breach of military discipline to include that in

21     a report; right?

22        A.   Correct, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now, this is, again, the notes of the meeting, the

24     coordination meeting on the 3rd, that was held between the MUP and the

25     military police administration that you've referred to earlier today in

Page 15413

 1     your testimony.  And let me call your attention to the -- to page 3 in

 2     the English, please.  And page 2 in the Croatian.

 3             Now, these are the words that are ascribed to you, Mr. Lausic,

 4     and it says -- that's the bottom -- no, it's not.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  I'm sorry it is the bottom of page 2, I apologise.

 6        Q.   It says:

 7             "Major-General Mate Lausic" -- you have it in front of you,

 8     Mr. Lausic?

 9        A.   Yes, I do thank you.  I have my document here.

10        Q.   "Major-General Mate Lausic emphasised that the main negative

11     experiences noted in Operation Flash were the following:

12             "Lack of energy the military police activities, lack of

13     coordination (in terms of dynamics and distribution of forces) under

14     specific conditions on the ground, which reduced efficiency and

15     unnecessarily created the illusion that the number of members engaged was

16     insufficient.  He also emphasised that he had now authorised UVP officers

17     to replace the commanders of military police units on the spot, should

18     they notice any irregularities in their work."

19             That sentence relates to your prior order where you appointed

20     Major Juric, Mr. Kozic, I think Mr. Cvitanovic; and in that order you

21     said he is authorised to undertake all measures to ensure efficient and

22     effective implementation of military police tasks in the 72nd and north

23     operative zones of responsibility.

24             And when you wrote that, "all measures," you clarified at the

25     meeting on the 3rd that all measures meant they could even replace

Page 15414

 1     commanders of military units if necessary to get the job done; correct?

 2     I'm sorry, military police units.  He could replace commanders of

 3     military units, if necessary, in order to get the job done.

 4        A.   Correct.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Now if we can go back to D269, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, we would have to deal with two matters.

 7     I don't know what would be a suitable time, but I would certainly not

 8     have a break not later than ten minutes from now.  And I take it that the

 9     issues would take five to seven minutes.

10             MR. MISETIC:  I hope less.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You hope less.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So do I.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  D269.

15        Q.   Mr. Lausic, again this is it the document we saw yesterday on

16     your order on the work of the military police.  And if we turn the page

17     in English, please, and in Croatian.

18             Now, do you agree with me that General Gotovina was not in your

19     chain of command?

20        A.   Yes, absolutely.

21        Q.   Do you agree with me that no member of the armed forces -- I'm

22     sorry, of the -- from the Main Staff, in the line of the Main Staff,

23     meaning the Main Staff, Military Districts, and subordinate units were

24     present at the meeting between Minister Jarnjak and Minister Susak or the

25     subsequent working meeting between yourself and Mr. Moric, where some

Page 15415

 1     details were worked out on security measures on the eve of Operation

 2     Storm?

 3        A.   Correct.  The people from the same profession met to discuss the

 4     most efficient manner of carrying out the tasks which they were

 5     duty-bound under the law to carry out.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So the methods that you had agreed, because no military

 7     person was in your line of command, the only way to implement what was

 8     agreed upon at the meeting on the 3rd with Mr. Moric was through your

 9     line as the chief of the military police administration.  Either that or

10     you would have to ask somebody in the military line to follow your

11     suggestion.

12        A.   I must admit I again fail to understand your question.  Could you

13     be more specific please.

14        Q.   General Gotovina, specifically here, and let me give you a

15     concrete example.  Whatever you and Mr. Moric agreed upon on the 3rd of

16     August, in terms of methods, tactics, General Gotovina had no obligation

17     to implement what you had agreed upon; correct?

18        A.   Obligation referred to those who are authorised to act, and they

19     were military and civilian policemen, based on the powers given to them

20     by the law.  General Gotovina was not a member of the military police and

21     did not have the legal powers.  It's well-known what the authorisation is

22     given by the law.

23        Q.   He did not have the legal powers to do what?

24        A.   I didn't understand.  The meeting was a meeting of men from the

25     same profession:  military police, civilian police.  At the meeting,

Page 15416

 1     based on experience from Operation Flash, where certain irregularities

 2     had been observed, a plan was drawn up as to how to act most efficiently,

 3     both by the military and the civilian police, with the men and resources

 4     available on the territory we were to act on.

 5             After the meeting, I asked the chief of the MP administration

 6     sent to the MP units of the military police their duties; and these are

 7     contained in the points of those orders, and the same was done by

 8     Mr. Moric in his instructions to the chiefs of the police

 9     administrations.

10             My order was sent to the commanders of the Military Districts for

11     their information, so that they would know what the battalions, who were

12     under their daily operative command, would be doing, what sort of methods

13     and tactics they would be using.

14             So they were provided with this information, so that they would

15     be aware of what the police would be doing and where.

16        Q.   Okay.  Final question before the break.  So you had command over

17     the military police before and during Storm in order to issue such

18     orders; correct?

19        A.   I commanded the military police for 12 years:  Five years in

20     wartime and seven in peacetime.  And I issued hundreds of orders like

21     this one, either to do with operations such as Maslenica, Bijesak, Oluja

22     to liberate territory or dozens of other operative actions such as those

23     mentioned yesterday, Varivode and so on.  It was always through orders.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lausic.

25             MR. MISETIC:  It's now a good time for a break, Mr. President.

Page 15417

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  First we'll deal with the two outstanding matters.

 2             But, Mr. Lausic, I don't know whether you get coffee or tea but

 3     you're already allowed to follow the usher, and we'd like to see you back

 4     in approximately half an hour.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think there were two issues.  It's not entirely

 7     clear whether and to what extent they are related.  The first one being

 8     the relevance of a question whether Mr. Lausic felt obliged to give his

 9     notebook to anyone.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And the second one is that you would like have a

12     look at the original of the notebook.

13             MR. MISETIC:  I think the second one would be easier.  I would

14     like to have a look at the original notebook for 1995.  My proposal would

15     be that Mr. Lausic retrieve the diary, and if he has any concern about

16     personal information that that submitted to the Chamber to review whether

17     there is something really personal in there that -- that should be

18     protected.  I have no desire to go into anything that is truly personal.

19             On the other hand, where he was at specific points of time that

20     aren't necessarily -- there may be personal views -- at a birthday party

21     in Knin on the 5th might be relevant, even though it is a personal

22     matter.

23             So something for the Chamber to review.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll further inquire with Mr. Lausic whether

25     he is willing to --

Page 15418

 1             And then --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  The second issue.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course practically -- let me see then.  We

 4     would then.  Yes.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  That might be a private session issue.  I'm not

 6     sure if Mr. Tieger wants to move into private session or not.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I imagine we could deal with it otherwise, but it

 8     would be more awkward and probably pointless.  I share the private

 9     session suggestion.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I was still busy with the practicalities of the

11     first, which is not necessary to be dealt in private session.

12             The Chamber is supposed to look at portions of the notebook that

13     are not transcribed to see whether they're private.

14             MR. MISETIC:  That's true, yeah.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And I'm a very practical person; I don't know the

16     word for birthday in B/C/S, Mr. Misetic.

17             So, therefore, then, of course, perhaps you will have to do that

18     with the assistance of a language assistant, something like that, that we

19     are -- get a provisional impression of what is in the portions that are

20     not transcribed.

21             Now that's one.

22             We then also have to compare exactly what is transcribed and not

23     transcribed.  I've got no idea whether it is every page, five birthdays

24     or; so let's further inquire with the witness what portions approximately

25     will not have been transcribed and to what extent he is willing to give

Page 15419

 1     access to it.

 2             Then we now turn into private session for the relevance issue.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15420











11  Page 15420 redacted. Private session.















Page 15421

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

19             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 4.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22                           --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Lausic, would you be willing

24     to -- to give the original version of your -- of your personal notes, to

25     give it for inspection to the parties, and where you feel that matters of

Page 15422

 1     a personal nature are included, which you would not like to share with

 2     the parties in these proceedings, that we would have two copies:  One

 3     complete copy, and perhaps the original that, of course, would then be

 4     returned to you; and a copy you prepare taking out the private matters,

 5     and then that the Chamber would just verify and can confirm to the

 6     parties that what you left out, that that is of a private character; so

 7     to give the full text, preferably the original to the Chamber, and to

 8     prepare a copy, taking out anything you consider personal.  The Chamber

 9     will then verify whether the portions taken out are of a personal nature,

10     and then confirm that to the parties, and the parties will then accept

11     that these are -- that the Chamber verified that.

12             Are you willing to cooperate in this way?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, as photocopied

14     pages of those parts, which were certified when making an additional

15     copy.  That is to say, the entries without the private matters blanked

16     out and the copies without those parts.  That is what was seen by the

17     notary public who certified that those pages are, indeed, the pages of my

18     diary.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But would you be willing to give the diary in

20     its entirety and then exclusively to the Chamber, so that the Chamber

21     verifies and confirms to the parties that everything you took out is, and

22     will not then go into any further detail, is of a private nature.

23             So that to provide the full -- if possible, the original, but if

24     not, then at least a full photocopy of every page without blanked out

25     anything.  So for to us say, Okay that's true, this is a birthday or

Page 15423

 1     that's a funeral or -- and then one remaining issue.  Sometimes if you

 2     may have described matters of a perfectly private nature, such as

 3     attending a wedding of a -- of someone you know well in Sarajevo, for

 4     example, that then what is private is why you were in Sarajevo.

 5     Nevertheless, the fact that you were in Sarajevo can have some relevance.

 6             If there's any information which the Chamber considers could have

 7     some relevance, apart from the personal page that of the occasion, then

 8     we might put that to you and say ask you whether you consider it private,

 9     that you were present at a certain day in Sarajevo or in Zagreb or in

10     Belgrade or whatever.  That's -- we would then verify that with you

11     first.

12             Would that be a practical solution?  And would you be willing to

13     give the original, which will be returned to you without -- it will be

14     kept under the control of the Chamber but then it also gives an

15     opportunity to verify whether the copied pages are fully consistent with

16     the original.  Yes?

17             Then we'll take care that you'll be approached by the victims and

18     witness section for the practical arrangements in relation to this.  Yes?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.  Those

20     documents are in Zagreb.  Technically that can be dealt with the Office

21     of The Hague Tribunal in Zagreb.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the victims and witness section will then

23     contact the outreach office in Zagreb, and we will find a practical

24     solution for that.

25             Mr. Misetic.

Page 15424

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Lausic, let me take you to Exhibit D844, which is another

 3     order of yours.

 4             Mr. Lausic, this is an order of yours at the back it says -- on

 5     the last page the date it was received is 4 August.  So it's some time on

 6     or before the 4th of August, but there's no date in the caption.

 7             And it's an order from you that goes to the MP 3rd Company

 8     Detachment, Zadar; the 4th Company, Sibenik; and the 6th Company,

 9     Dubrovnik, attention to the commanders of those companies directly from

10     you.

11             And it's -- you're issuing an order on what the content of

12     reports should be, and the preamble says:

13             "With the view of uniform contents of reports on tasks,

14     performance in the areas of responsibility, the reports should be

15     submitted at time and in a way prescribed by point 12 of the above

16     mentioned order ..."

17             And we have already seen that.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Tieger, if I'm correct on the date ... and then

19     we go through the contents.  And if we go to paragraph 2, which is the

20     next page in English.  I am sorry, the next page in English.  We're on

21     the same page in B/C/S, page 1.  If we could zoom in on paragraph 2 for

22     the witness.

23        Q.   Now you're ordering that -- the reports contain information on:

24             "The status of public law and order in a zone of combat

25     operations and in newly liberated areas, stating events when the military

Page 15425

 1     police had to act and the results of the intervention."

 2             Point 3 is about safety and military road traffic.

 3             Point 4 is the status of crime in liberated areas and in zones of

 4     combat operations.  The number of crimes, the crime reports filed, and

 5     the escort of HV members who committed a crime.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page in Croatian, please.

 7        Q.   Number 5, you want information on the number of arrested persons

 8     sorted by time when they were taken over from HV units, the time of

 9     handing them over to a reception centre, the number of civilians, women

10     and children, and the elderly handed over to the police units of the MUP.

11             Point 6 is about information on search results of territory and

12     facilities.

13             MR. MISETIC:  If we scroll down to point 9 in the English

14     version.

15        Q.    "The system of daily reporting through services remains as it

16     is.  This report is to be signed by a MP unit commander, that is,

17     officers of the military police administration in accordance with the

18     item 12 of the above mentioned order ..."

19             And it's signed.

20             Now, this is the information that the military police units

21     within the 72nd and the 73rd had to submit to Major Juric so that he

22     could prepare his reports in time to send them to you by 8.00 every

23     night; correct?

24        A.   I must confess that this is the first time I see the order.

25             This was a coded order.  I would like to see the original, based

Page 15426

 1     on which the encryption centre coded it.  Although it says in the

 2     signature block chief, Chief Major-General Ante [sic] Lausic.  I believe

 3     it was signed by Major Juric.  It would have been unusual for me as the

 4     chief of the administration to direct company -- to contact company

 5     commanders directly.  I'm afraid I cannot state anything about the

 6     document, without being able to see the original rather than this coded

 7     copy.

 8             Only after I see whose signature there is, could I tell you

 9     whether it was indeed Major Juric who signed it as the commander of the

10     forward command post of the MP administration according to the powers he

11     received from me pursuant to my order.  In that case, he was able to

12     issue orders such as this one to the respective companies.

13        Q.   Let me break that apart.  First, there is no question that you in

14     fact did have the authority to issue an order directly to a company;

15     correct?  If you chose to do so?

16        A.   It would be unusual.  My orders were sent to battalion

17     commanders.

18        Q.   Whether unusual or not, again, my question is:  There is no

19     question that you had the authority to issue an order directly to a

20     company; correct?

21        A.   Yes, it is.  But I have to repeat, it would have been highly

22     unusual.  I can't imagine what reasons there may have been for me to do

23     that.

24        Q.   Now, in terms of content of the reports, this is the information

25     that you wanted in the reports that were going to be sent to you from

Page 15427

 1     Major Juric; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  If this was signed by Major Juric, pursuant to my

 3     authorisation, then he wanted to have the information referred to in the

 4     order so that he could send a report to the administration in keeping

 5     with my order of the 4th of August.

 6        Q.   Okay.  My question is very specific.  Whether it was issued by

 7     you -- it is at least appears on its face to have been issued by you.

 8     But even if it was issued by Major Juric, let's put that aside for a

 9     minute.  You wanted in those reports that would come to you the

10     information that is it outlined in this document; correct?

11        A.   It is.

12        Q.   And this is the type of information that would have gone to

13     Major Juric pursuant to your order, and then to you, and there was no

14     provision that these orders -- I'm sorry, these reports would be copied

15     to the Split Military District Command; correct?

16        A.   If we focus on the last paragraph of this order irrespective of

17     the fact whether it was me or Juric who signed it, it says that the

18     system of daily reporting through duty offices remains the same.

19        Q.   And we've seen one such daily report, and if you want me to show

20     you the daily reports from the 4th and 5th, as I told you before, we can

21     talk about drunk soldiers and traffic accidents in the daily reports;

22     that's not what I'm actually talking about.  The specific content that

23     you ordered that -- to be prepared about all the different areas of

24     information you were seeking, those reports would only go to the military

25     police administration, and there was no order that said that they should

Page 15428

 1     be copied to the Split Military District Command.  That's the truth;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Could we go back to page 1 of the document, please.

 4        Q.   Sure.

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Now, Mr. Registrar, if we can go to Exhibit D845,

 8     please.

 9        Q.   Now, this is a report from the company commander of the 4th

10     Company Sibenik to Major Budimir but in the preamble it says:

11             "Pursuant to the oral order of the chief of the military police

12     administration Major-General Mate Lausic, received 7 August 1995, at 1310

13     hours, who ordered that a security system be established urgently at the

14     entries and exits of the following warehouses."

15             And then it identifies the three warehouses.  And it says:

16             "The number of the personnel that will be necessary for the

17     aforementioned security will be determined by the Commander

18     Mihael Budimir or Captain Djulic."  It should be Dzolic.

19             Do you recall issuing an oral order to the company commander in

20     Sibenik regarding the securing of warehouses on the 7th of August?

21        A.   In my notes -- or, rather, the copy of my notes, I do not have

22     entries for the 7th of August.  I would have to check that against the

23     original.  However, it is probably true what it says in the document, and

24     that is that I had orally issued an order on the security of warehouses.

25        Q.   Okay, let me --

Page 15429

 1        A.   If I may have a moment.

 2        Q.   I actually -- let me try to help you, because there is another

 3     document that may help refresh your recollection.  And if I can show you

 4     D795, which is actually a written order issued by you to Major Juric

 5     about warehouses.

 6             This is the order.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  If we can scroll down to see ...

 8        Q.   It's the 7th of August, and you're invoking Article 8 of the

 9     rules and you order:

10             "1, is to establish the location of every warehouse facility

11     within the entire liberated territory.

12             "2, is to evaluate a method of physically securing all warehouse

13     facilities and establishing physical security of the mentioned facilities

14     from 0000 to 2400 hours."

15             Point 5 on the next page in English.  It says:

16             "The report on the implementation of this order to be delivered

17     starting 7 August 1995 attached to the daily report submitted according

18     to the military police administration order dated 2 August ..."

19             So it's fair to say that you issued an order to Major Juric, this

20     is an operational order; correct?

21        A.   Yes.  Probably right after the oral order was received from

22     Mr. Susak that MP units take over the security of all warehouses in the

23     newly liberated area as issued to me, the reason being that those

24     warehouses were being looted by HV members or that members of the central

25     logistics base that was supposed to take over the warehouses were not

Page 15430

 1     granted access to those warehouses by the HV members who had occupied

 2     them.  That is why the oral order was issued to me that the military

 3     police take over security of the warehouses.

 4             As stated in order, the entry to the premises and the issuing of

 5     materiel and technical equipment is not allowed without a written

 6     permission from Vladimir Zagorac.  I provided an opinion in my two

 7     statements as a suspect and a witness upon being questioned by the

 8     investigator about whether the minister of defence, the military police

 9     was transferred from its general duties to provide security for the

10     warehouses, which is certainly not something that would fall within the

11     authority of the military police because these are not exactly

12     rocket-launcher bases, if I may be a bit ironic.

13             When I answered that question, I was of the view that, based on

14     the information received by minister of defence that those warehouses

15     were being looted and their contents taken away by various HV members,

16     and that the employees of the 300th logistic base who according to a

17     previous order were supposed to take over those warehouses but were not

18     granted access, that is why he issued an order to me.

19             Then as a follow-up, I first issued an oral and then a written

20     order.  I have an entry in my diary that I was told by Major Juric that

21     on the 7th of August, at 2200 hours, the minister's order was implemented

22     and the premises handed over to the logistics base as well as that the

23     Golubic and Krka warehouse was being secured.  The only one that was not

24     secured was the third one because the 3rd Guards Brigade was billeted

25     there.  The next morning, Mr. Biskic, my deputy, informed me that the

Page 15431

 1     Slunj warehouse was taken over by the military police forces and so on

 2     and so forth.

 3        Q.   I appreciate that you want to provide as much detail as possible.

 4     If I need very specific details about particular issues like which

 5     warehouses were or weren't secured, I will be sure to ask you a follow-up

 6     question.  But if you could keep your answers focussed to the question

 7     that I posed, it will help us get through this material.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have on the screen

 9     Exhibit P2166, at English page 37 and B/C/S page 33, please.

10        Q.   This is your diary entry for the 8th of August.  I'm interested

11     in the references to Major Juric at paragraphs 1 and 2.  You referred to

12     him as the commander of the forward command post 73rd VP and 72nd VP in

13     Knin:

14             "Is to carry out all military and police tasks in their zones of

15     responsibility with the existing formations with additional military

16     police administration forces."

17             And point 2, second sentence is:

18             "Review the possibility of having a part of the forces two or

19     three groups deployed to the forward command post of the 72nd and 73rd

20     Military Police Battalions in Knin and placed under the command of

21     Major Juric to carry out tasks in their zone of responsibility."

22             Now on the 8th of August, your commander for all intents and

23     purposes in the field was Major Juric; correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   And you use the phrase here:

Page 15432

 1             "He is to carry out all military and police tasks in the zone of

 2     responsibility with existing formations."

 3             That's correct as well.

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   Now, at least through Major Juric, and I asked you this question

 6     before the break and I will ask it again:  Through Major Juric, who was

 7     your eyes and ears in the field, that was your way of maintaining command

 8     in the field, through him; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have P2159, please.

11        Q.   Which is your witness statement, Mr. Lausic.

12             If you could turn your attention to paragraph 168 of your

13     statement.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, this is page 35 in the English

15     version.  And page 36 in the B/C/S.

16        Q.   Now, let me first start off by noting that today when I started I

17     asked you about the systemisation chart and about -- it said that the

18     chief of the military police administration whether he was responsible

19     for the work of the administration in the units in -- in 1995 and you

20     said at page 6, beginning page 6 line 23 you agreed with me, that in fact

21     systemisation never changed, and that you obviously, pursuant to the

22     systemisation, were responsible for the work of the military police

23     units.

24             And just now you have acknowledged that you were in command

25     through Major Juric.

Page 15433

 1             Now, your statement, at page 168 [sic] says:

 2             "One of the main tasks of the military police is to ensure and

 3     control the discipline of the military.  And where they find military

 4     personnel committing crimes, then dealing with them by way of arrest and

 5     processing them and as well as investigating crimes where military

 6     personnel are involved.  It is also to conduct preventative operations to

 7     prevent something from happening and general law enforcement.  You ask if

 8     I was responsible for the performance of the military police as chief of

 9     the military police administration and can you see from this order that

10     I" --

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we can turn the page please.

12        Q.    "That I subordinated the units of the military police to the

13     commanders of the Military Districts in their entirety.  However, through

14     my officers, I try to have some knowledge of all units situation on the

15     ground and apply the best methods and tactics to be used, possibly

16     reinforce forces in certain areas in order to prevent commanders of the

17     HV from misusing the military police.  The units of the military police

18     were in its entirety subordinated to the commanders of the Military

19     Districts or the commanders of the operative groups ..."

20             Now, Mr. Lausic, we have reviewed the orders.  We've reviewed

21     Major Juric's role.  You agreed with me that you maintained command

22     through Major Juric.  In fact, the units of the military police were not

23     subordinated in their entirety to the Military District Commanders;

24     correct?

25        A.   I wouldn't agree with what you say.  Because not for a moment did

Page 15434

 1     I receive from any level of command in the Croatian army.

 2        Q.   All those orders that we just went though, Mr. Lausic, were they

 3     illegal orders?

 4        A.   No.  They were based on my powers as the chief of the military

 5     police administration.

 6        Q.   Mr. Lausic, it's not true that the military police units were

 7     subordinated in their entirety to the Military District Commanders;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   That's not correct.  Show me an instance where the commander of a

10     Military District or a garrison or the highest ranking commander in a

11     certain area did not have the right to issue orders to the military

12     police for any reason.

13        Q.   That's not the question, Mr. Lausic.

14        A.   But that's the conclusion you're drawing.

15        Q.   No, Mr. Lausic, I'm saying what you said to me five minutes ago,

16     which was you had command in the field through Major Juric; yet you gave

17     a witness statement where you said that the military police units were

18     subordinated in their entirety to the Military District Commander.

19             Now, I'm giving you an opportunity to explain how it is that you

20     were in command through Major Juric and can still say under oath that the

21     military police units were subordinated in their entirety to the Military

22     District Commander.

23        A.   Each one of my orders relates to the tasks which the units of the

24     military police had to carry out and which fell within the sphere of work

25     of the military police in accordance with my powers as the chief of the

Page 15435

 1     military police administration.  I don't see where the misunderstanding

 2     lies.  I issued all my orders based on the powers given to me in

 3     Article 8.  Each one of these orders pertain to the task of military

 4     police tasks, the proper ways of using the methodology and tactics, and

 5     everything else we have had occasion to see here.

 6        Q.   That we are in full agreement on.  And in order to do all of

 7     those things under Article 8, those military police units were

 8     subordinated to you.

 9        A.   No.  You saw from the order that I subordinated them to the

10     commander of a Military District in which they were.  They were within

11     the units in that district.  The commander of a battalion had to carry

12     out the orders issued by me but also all the orders issued to him by the

13     commander of the Military District, provided those tasks fell within the

14     sphere of work of the military police; and if they did not have enough

15     resources, they would apply to Major Juric for help.  And if Major Juric

16     was unable to provide this help, he would ask for extra forces from other

17     military police units.

18        Q.   I'd like to focus back on the issue so we can talk about

19     Major Juric.

20             You can't issue an order to someone who is not subordinated to

21     you, can you?

22        A.   If we look at Article 8 once more.

23        Q.   You can't issue an order to someone who's not subordinated to

24     you.  Yes or no?

25        A.   Article 8 says that the chief of the military police

Page 15436

 1     administration issues orders to all the military police units, so I was

 2     using the powers granted to me under Article 8.  Article 9 says that

 3     military police units, when carrying out their regular MP tasks in daily

 4     operative commanding are subordinated to the commander of the Military

 5     District.  The basic issue is that these tasks have to be military police

 6     tasks, and they have to be carried out.  They have to report on the tasks

 7     they have carried out, and then it has to be seen whether the most

 8     efficient methods were used, that there were no abuses, and that

 9     everything was recorded.  And that was the basic rule.  There was no

10     conflict in the command methods.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, the point you want to make is clear to

12     the Chamber, and you're invited to move on.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Lausic, let's take a look at D506.

15             This is the report from the 9th of August.  I just show this to

16     you to refresh your recollection.  This is a report to General Cervenko

17     and others where you talk about commanders not exerting influence over

18     them - this is at page 2 - you propose that appropriate measures be taken

19     along the line of command so that the line of command would prevent

20     plunder, the burning of buildings and similar acts that harm the

21     reputation of the HV.

22             Now, do you know if, in fact, orders were issued on the 9th and

23     10th along the chain of command to take action to stop burning and

24     looting?

25             First let me know if you know, yes or no.

Page 15437

 1        A.   From what level was the order issued?  From the chief of the

 2     Main Staff, from that level, you mean?

 3        Q.   First of all, I didn't say it was necessarily connected to your

 4     report.  But from the chief of the Main Staff, all the way down the line.

 5        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 6        Q.   Now, you send that information, and let me draw your attention to

 7     a few matters.  I want to call your attention to Kistanje.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit P203,

 9     please.

10        Q.   This is what you were shown by Mr. Tieger.  It's ...

11             MR. MISETIC:  If you can blow up the bottom of both pages,

12     please.

13        Q.   It says at the second paragraph from the bottom.  Talks about:

14             "In the liberated areas of the hinterlands of Zadar and Sibenik,

15     the establishment of the civilian authorities is not being carried out in

16     a satisfactory pace.  More precisely, in the liberated settlements

17     Bribirski Mostine, Djevrska, and Kistanje the situation is rather

18     chaotic.  Incidents of mass burning of houses, plundering of property,

19     alcohol consumption occur and units lack organisation."

20             And then the next paragraph says:

21             "The commanders of the Operational Groups and units have been

22     reported about the situation.  A military police platoon has been

23     assigned to the area in order to normalise the situation concerning the

24     HV members."

25             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn to P973, Mr. Registrar.

Page 15438

 1        Q.   This is a report on the 8th of August about events on the 6th of

 2     August.

 3             This is it the duty log-book of the 4th Company Sibenik.  And if

 4     we turn to page 7 in both the English and the B/C/S; the entry at 2050,

 5     please.

 6             This is for the 6th of August as well at 2050:  "Military

 7     policemen sent to Kistanje" -- you have the names of the military

 8     policemen that were sent.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  If we could blow that up.

10             Now, Mr. Registrar, if we could go to D274, please.  And this

11     is -- we need to go to page 5 in the B/C/S and page 4 in the English

12     please.

13        Q.   Mr. Lausic, I'm showing you a diary of an UN military policeman

14     named Geoff Hill who was familiar with Captain Juric and referred to him

15     as Ivan.  And the entry for the 9th of August.

16             MR. MISETIC:  And it's page 4 in the English.  4 in the English,

17     5 in the B/C/S.  If we can back one page in the English.  The entry at

18     the bottom in English, and I think we're still not on page 5 in the

19     B/C/S.  Okay.

20        Q.   Now, Captain Hill reported in his diary.  If we go to -- towards

21     the -- about the fourth sentence in:

22             "Tried a route up towards road to Drnis and managed to get on the

23     main road.  Went through Kistanje, totally destroyed, smelled of bodies.

24     No MP, just soldiers.  One infantry convoy" -- or I-n-f-c-o-y, "with lots

25     of ammo.  Driving towards Benkovac.  Met Ivan on the road.  Said hi.  He

Page 15439

 1     said he was going around to lots of places, asked if we could follow,

 2     said yes.  Went to a couple of places.  We waited while he talked to

 3     people.  Stopped at a factory east side of Kistanje.  He went in, about

 4     12 MP."

 5             Now, if we could go to D732, please.

 6             Now, we've seen that the military police of the Sibenik company

 7     were sent in on the evening of the 6th.  Mr. Juric was seen in Kistanje

 8     on the 9th.  This is the report he sent to you on the 9th pursuant to

 9     your orders:

10             "Report on the execution of military police tasks in operations

11     group north by 1600 hours?

12             A number of household appliances were seized and receipts issued

13     in exchange.  The patrol and beat service conducted the search in the

14     surrounding settlements in accordance with its abilities."

15             Talking about the situation in Benkovac and Obrovac:

16             "Except for a few cases of seizing of items usually seized at

17     check points anyway."

18             If we turn the page, please.

19             From the members of the 2148 VP Sinj:

20             "A Ursus tractor was seized.  A Labin Progres milling machine."

21             And then 9 August, should be 1995:

22             "Members of the Sibenik police were carrying out their regular

23     duties at check-points and in car patrols.  No violations of public law

24     and order were recorded in the observed period, nor was there any need

25     for the Sibenik military police to intervene."

Page 15440

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Now, if we can go to 65 ter 6961, please.  I'm

 2     sorry -- yes, it's 6961.

 3        Q.   Now these are the daily reports that you have been referring to,

 4     which are different than Major Juric's reports.  These are the types of

 5     things that would go to many addresses, including the Split Military

 6     District Command.  We can see the first one involves a traffic accident.

 7     Details about how many people were injured in the traffic accident.

 8             The second point is about a traffic accident.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  If we go to the third point on the next page,

10     please.

11        Q.   On 9th of August, a Zadar MP received a report by soldier

12     Tomas Brekalo that one of their members got killed and two others

13     severely injured when all of them drove over an anti-tank mine.

14             MR. MISETIC:  If we go to the next page in English, please.

15     Securing public gatherings, attacks on authorised officials of the

16     military meet the police.

17             Finally, if we can go to the last page, please.  I'm sorry, one

18     page back just to see who the addressees were.

19             If we could turn to the address page at the end of the Croatian

20     version as well.  And then go to the bottom.

21        Q.   You see it goes to the duty department of the military police

22     administration the commander of the Split Military District, the Split

23     garrison, SIS, the chief of the civilian police administration, the

24     military court, the military prosecutor's office.

25             The information that is contained in that report for the 9th is

Page 15441

 1     not the same type of information that you wanted to receive from

 2     Major Juric in his reporting, which included whether looted items were

 3     being confiscated at check-points, other types of criminality that may be

 4     taking place in the area; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  But you should address these questions or should have

 6     addressed them to Major Juric.  I don't know why the activity that has

 7     evidently been carried out from the area of work of the military police

 8     was not described in this report.  Perhaps an interim report had been

 9     submitted in the meantime.  The reporting system included daily and

10     interim reports.  This may have been a situation which required an

11     interim report, which is why it would not have been entered into this

12     daily report.

13        Q.   Let's analyse that, Mr. Lausic, because I have the interim

14     reports for the 9th as well.

15             MR. MISETIC:  First, Mr. President, again if is not on the bar

16     table submission then I tender it.  If it is, then we have no objection.

17     I'm told it is, so we have no objection, Mr. President.

18             65 ter 3915, Mr. Registrar, page 185.

19             Mr. President, in this issue only came up as a result of the

20     witness's testimony yesterday about special reports.  It's a 65 ter

21     exhibit.  Unfortunately, they are not translated in e-court, and so we

22     are -- we have sent a request to have the special reports translated as

23     well, but for our purposes because the witness is here, I don't intend to

24     go into much substance of these reports.  I'm more concerned with the

25     addressees.

Page 15442

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I understand the nature of the problem, and we

 3     will have it up, and the witness can see it in the Croatian and -- just

 4     in so far as admissibility is concerned, of course, the same issue so we

 5     can double-check it.  But I certainly understand the situation we find

 6     ourselves in and agree.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You reserve your position.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, also put on the record where earlier you now

10     and then reserved your position that we have not heard from you since

11     then, so I take it that that's --

12             MR. TIEGER:  Actually, I was going to take the available

13     opportunity but with respect to both of those, I wanted to add with

14     respect to one of the document the single item provision which is about

15     one sentence and a paragraph on the other.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll do that then at a later stage, focussing on

17     that.

18             Then, yes, 65 ter 3915.

19             MR. MISETIC:  I will identify them because it's a very large file

20     so just so that the record is clear.

21        Q.   Mr. Lausic you see on your screen 9 August, 1995.  It's a special

22     report.

23             Now can you look at the bottom to see who was actually receiving

24     the special reports --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Misetic.  The previous

Page 15443

 1     document I think you said, I will tendered it if it is not on the list.

 2     We have not completed that.

 3             Is it on the list is it not on the list.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  It is on the list, and Mr. Misetic indicated on the

 5     record that it was on the list.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  So we have no objection to it, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.  Yes, that's then clear.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Now, if you look at the special reports for the 9th, you will see

11     in the bottom left-hand corner, who does the report go to?

12             And if can you speak it in because we don't have a translation.

13        A.   Operational duty office section of the administration of the

14     military police and archives.

15        Q.   And generally speaking, we're talking about a car accident again

16     here in this report; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  Can we go to --

19             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, before we leave, can I just suggest

20     that perhaps in addition to identifying the report by date, which

21     probably is sufficient, we mention the ERN number that will make it even

22     more specific.

23             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.  It's 0463-3639.

24             Mr. Registrar, if we go to page 194.  It's 0463-3648.

25        Q.   Again, the 9th of August, again the same addressees --

Page 15444

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, if you pronounce these numbers very

 2     quickly an eight-digit number easily changes in a seven-digit number.  I

 3     think you wanted to say 0463-3648.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. MISETIC:

 7        Q.   It's a special report again on the 9th.  Again it goes to the

 8     operational duty service section of the administration of the military

 9     police and the archives.  And, again, we're talking about serious

10     injuries that resulted from a car accident.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar --

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. MISETIC: -- if we could go to page 192 which is 0463-3646.

14        Q.   Again, it's the same addressees on the 9th of August; to the

15     operational duty service section of the administration of the military

16     police and the archives.  And it reports that on the 7th of

17     August between 1600 and 1800 that a soldier fired his weapon at a

18     civilian vehicle.

19             Now, Mr. Lausic, the fact of the matter is these special reports

20     were only going to the duty service section of the administration of the

21     military police.  It was only the daily reports that we've seen a few of

22     that would go to many addresses, prosecutors, courts, the Split Military

23     District Command, police chiefs of the civilian police; right?

24        A.   Yes.  According to what you showed.  I don't know whether there

25     were any other reports sent to different levels.  However, I did not

Page 15445

 1     review this as part of 72nd Battalion documents.

 2        Q.   I have, and I have them.  And we'll reserve that for a little bit

 3     later.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Again, Mr. President, there is not ...

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I tender the documents as I read

 7     them out by the ERN numbers.  I'm advised by the case manager that

 8     tomorrow we will have these specific documents uploaded into e-court with

 9     translations; so I'd ask as we've identified them on the record, we MFI

10     it; and we will have it as one exhibit.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We MFI them as one exhibit.

12             MR. MISETIC:  One exhibit, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  All of them, yes.  Then they should, Mr. Registrar,

14     is it clear enough which 65 ter numbers are covered by this exercise?

15             Then the MFI number to be provisionally assigned would be.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours the document under 65 ter number

17     3915, pages in e-court 185, 194, 192, will be admitted into evidence

18     under Defence number D1285.

19             Thank you, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And they'll -- are marked for identification at this

21     moment.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             Now, if we go to Exhibit D46, Mr. Registrar.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I'm looking at the clock.  Somewhere in

25     the next, I would say, five to seven minutes, I would like to start a

Page 15446

 1     break.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lausic, this is a letter that Mr. Moric wrote to you on the

 4     10th.  And he writes to you:

 5             "According to reports from the field and in particular the

 6     territories of the Lika-Senj and Zadar-Knin police administrations, and

 7     the Vojnic and Vrgin Most areas cases are being noted of individual

 8     Croatian army members on liberated territory stealing moveable property,

 9     burning houses, and killing the cattle that strays in the area.

10             "In addition, in some places, there is an lack of cooperation at

11     check-points and roadblocks between the MUP and military police members.

12             "While understanding the size and nature of the tasks that you

13     have to contend with, we kindly ask you to take measures to eliminate

14     these things."

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you talk to Mr. Moric orally after he sent you this letter?

17        A.   I would have to refer to my diary entries to see whether I have

18     anything that would mention that.

19             Off the top of my head, I can't tell you anything.

20        Q.   It might be a good time for a break then, and it will give you an

21     opportunity to look through your notes.

22             MR. MISETIC:  So, Mr. President ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break.  And we will resume at ten

24     minutes to 6.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

Page 15447

 1                           --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Mr. Lausic, were you able to look at your notes and see if you

 5     spoke to Mr. Moric about this letter?

 6        A.   No.  I have no entries for the 10th or the 11th, to the effective

 7     that we were in contact.  This doesn't necessarily mean that we were not

 8     in contact, but it's not in my diary.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, you understood from the letter that Mr. Moric and

10     let me take a step back.

11             You and Mr. Moric were, in fact, pursuant to the meeting on the

12     2nd of August, the persons charged with coordinating the work of the

13     military and civil police during and after Operation Storm; correct?

14        A.   Given our posts and the meetings we held, as well as the results

15     of those meetings, that is obvious.

16        Q.   So it was natural for Mr. Moric to contact you, if he had

17     information that might be relevant to the work of the military police;

18     correct?

19        A.   It is.

20        Q.   Now, it was evident in the letter that Mr. Moric wanted you to

21     take measures to eliminate these things; correct?

22        A.   That is what we can read in the letter.

23        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Lausic, let me show you D733 please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Until it's on the screen, Mr. Misetic.

25             Mr. Lausic, this letter is without any letterhead.  Do you have

Page 15448

 1     any explanation for this communication to be on paper without a

 2     letterhead?  The previous one, yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And in the signature block,

 4     there is no signature of Mr. Moric.  I don't have an explanation, at

 5     least not without referring to the original.  This is a copy.

 6             In any case, our communication, if in written form, took place on

 7     the official memos of the Ministry of Interior and the Ministry of

 8     Defence, with the full body of text in both the letterhead and in terms

 9     of stamps.  Therefore, I cannot offer any interpretation of this.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Before we move on, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I was

13     double-checking the transcript, I think somehow the reference to the

14     exhibit number for that document got lost if Mr. Misetic could just next

15     now and the record will be clearer if we look through it later.

16             MR. MISETIC:  It's D46.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Lausic, this is the report of Mr. Juric for the 10th of

18     August.  And in it at point 2, for example, he reports that:

19             "The members of the unit -- of the Sibenik unit are guarding two

20     industrial facilities and the Orthodox monastery in Kistanje.  Members of

21     the Vrlika military police carried out their regular tasks at

22     check-points and in car patrols.  No violations of public law and order

23     were registered in the observed period."

24             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to D734, Mr. Registrar.

25        Q.   Now this is his report to you from the 11th.  Again, he is

Page 15449

 1     talking about where -- in point 1 giving you details about where

 2     check-points are being set up.  That he expects the members of the MUP to

 3     take over security in Kistanje.  Maranjelovac [phoen] monastery, the

 4     Jadran factory, the Tvik factory during the day.  The check-points and

 5     security in Drnis remain unchanged:

 6             "The company is Sinj is carrying out regular police duties by car

 7     patrols without any problems.  The Benkovac platoon is in patrol.  The

 8     beat sectors coordination meeting held with the Obrovac police station."

 9             If we can turn the page in English and scroll down in the

10     Croatian.

11             Talking about point 2:  Two enemy soldiers being observed.

12             Point 4:  In the crime military police section --

13             If we turn the page in Croatian, please.

14             In the crime military police section perpetrators of crimes,

15     misappropriation of property from the liberated areas are being processed

16     daily.

17             Point 8:  "The health of VP members is very good but some members

18     are showing signs of fatigue.  However, this has not affected the quality

19     of their performance in carrying out military police duties."

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could go to D211.

21        Q.   Which is Mr. Juric's report to you of the 12th of August.

22             MR. MISETIC:  I think we have a problem with LiveNote on the

23     computer screens, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That seems to be the case.  We had similar

25     problems over the last few days.  I suggest that we do the same as we did

Page 15450

 1     before; that is, to see apparently rebooting our systems is the solution

 2     and then everyone, once it has been done, can connect him or herself

 3     again.  And for those who are unable to do it, the technicians will

 4     certainly assist.

 5             Let's proceed.  If this is at any moment -- if a problem arises

 6     but not being able to scroll back on your own computer, then, of course,

 7     we'd have to stop.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. MISETIC:

11        Q.   This is the report of the 12th of August.  Again, in point 1, he

12     makes the point that the MUP still hasn't taken over security in

13     Kistanje.

14             In point 2, no incidents of breach of the peace have been

15     recorded.

16             In point 4, in the crime military police section, no crimes have

17     been recorded.

18             Point 5, the military police have not arrested or brought in any

19     persons.

20             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to Exhibit D212, Mr. Registrar, for

21     the report of the 13th of August.

22        Q.   Again, this time he's talking about Kistanje but the MUP has

23     taken over security in Kistanje.

24             Point 2, no incidents of breach of the peace recorded.

25             Point 4, in the crime military police section, no crimes have

Page 15451

 1     been recorded.

 2             Point 5, the VP have not arrested or brought in any persons.

 3             And, finally, before I put a question to you, if we could look at

 4     P979 again.

 5             This is again -- we locked at it earlier, the report of

 6     Department Chief Ante Glavan who was in the field with Major Juric

 7     reporting to Mr. -- to Captain Eljuga, the military police crime

 8     investigation department.

 9             And the report talks about basically the situation with prisoners

10     of war.  This is on the 12th.

11             Now, my question, Mr. Lausic, is:  If, on the 9th, you were

12     reporting up the chain that there were problems with extraordinary

13     incidents, and if Mr. Moric wrote to you on the 10th, expressing a

14     similar situation, when you were getting these reports from your eyes and

15     ears, did you ask that he address the allegations that had come to your

16     attention?

17        A.   Mr. Misetic, could we please go back to my order of the 2nd of

18     August on the preparation of MP units in carrying out military policing

19     tasks.  We should focus on item 12 which speaks of the system of command

20     and reporting.

21             In the first paragraph of item 12 it says the system of

22     commanding and reporting commanders of MP battalions as well as the

23     commanders of the 64th, 69th, and 71st Battalion are subordinated in

24     terms of daily operational --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slowly

Page 15452

 1     read otherwise it is impossible to interpret.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lausic, it is a common experience in this

 3     courtroom that once you start reading that the speed of speech goes up,

 4     and the interpreters cannot follow us anymore.  So when you are reading

 5     could you please slow down.  And in general your speed of speech is

 6     relatively high, so could you also when not reading also slow down.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President, as well

 8     as to the interpreters.

 9             I will repeat.  My order of the 2nd of August, on the preparation

10     of MP units to carry out military policing tasks, in item 12, stipulating

11     the following system of command and reporting, states:  Commanders of MP

12     battalions, commanders of the 69th Company, the 70th Company and the 74th

13     Company are subordinated in terms of daily operational command to the

14     commanders of Military Districts of the Croatian army, to the commander

15     of the Croatian navy and to the commander of the air force.  And they are

16     to report daily to them in writing and in terms of briefings.  Whether

17     the commander of the 72nd Battalion did so in relation to all of the

18     events we saw in the documents you showed, and whether he informed the

19     Military District Commander or its command during daily briefings or in

20     writing is something that should be asked of him.

21             These reports by Major Juric, who was commander of the forward

22     command post of the MP administration, are in keeping with the third

23     paragraph of item 12 of the order, whereupon it says that he should send

24     compiled reports of the 72nd and 73rd MP Battalion commanders to me.

25     However, that does not annul the first sentence of item 12 in which it is

Page 15453

 1     stated that the commander of the 72nd Battalion as well as all other MP

 2     Battalions are to report in writing and orally on a daily basis to the

 3     commanders of Military Districts, navy, and the air force.  Whether that

 4     was done or not is something that you should ask the commander of the

 5     72nd Battalion, and as far as I know, he provided a statement as a

 6     witness.

 7        Q.   That was a really long answer that didn't answer my question.  So

 8     let's answer my question.

 9             We've established, and you agreed with me, that Mr. Moric if he

10     wanted -- that you were the point of contact for Mr. Moric, he passed on

11     information to you.  Your report of the 9th of August indicates that you

12     have some knowledge of the matter.  Your eyes and ears are in the field.

13     We've established through him you maintain command in the field.

14             The question is:  Did you go to Major Juric upon receiving these

15     reports and say, Your reports are inconsistent with information that is

16     coming to my attention, and I'd like you to investigate the information

17     that is coming to my attention.

18        A.   I cannot be precise in answering this, and whether to confirm or

19     deny, in terms of my contacts with Major Juric.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could go to Exhibit D47,

21     please.

22        Q.   This is your order of the 14th of August revoking your order of

23     the 2nd of August.  And you again, based on the above, and with the aim

24     of performing military and police tasks efficiently and effectively,

25     issue the order.

Page 15454

 1             Number 3 --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  If we can turn the page in English.

 3        Q.   You invalidate items 3 and 4 of the 2nd of August order and leave

 4     it up to the commanders of military police units to decide when they will

 5     completely abolish the forward command posts of the battalions and

 6     companies.

 7             And then number 4:  "Items 7, 8, 10 and 12 of the 2 August order

 8     shall become invalid at 2400 hours on the 14th of August."

 9             This is the order through which you withdrew the forward command

10     post headed by Major Juric; correct?

11        A.   All three forward command posts in Ogulin, Sisak, and at the

12     Split Military District.

13        Q.   Okay.  You are referred to Major Juric as your eyes and ears.  If

14     I may be metaphorical using your metaphor, by withdrawing him on the

15     14th, did that leave you blind and deaf as to what was happening on the

16     ground?

17        A.   In this order - let me just see under what paragraph number -

18     it's number 14, The following order is issued:

19             "Normalise the command and control system.  Cover the entire zone

20     of responsibility in daily reports through the duty service.  Send

21     separate reports on what is happening in the newly liberated area ..."

22             So everything must be covered in daily reports through the duty

23     service.

24             In -- or, rather, "in daily operational commands" -- or, rather:

25             "Send separate reports of mopping up of the terrain in code or by

Page 15455

 1     courier.  In daily operational commands, subordinate the commanders of

 2     the newly-established platoons and companies of Knin VP to the most

 3     senior HV commander in the zone of responsibility and send a daily report

 4     to them."

 5             These were 16 newly established units of the military police

 6     ranging in size from a squad to the company in Knin.

 7        Q.   Well, I'd refer you to paragraph 7 of this order which is page 2

 8     in the English.

 9             While we're getting that on the screen you sustained both in your

10     statement and in your testimony that the system as it existed before

11     Operation Storm you felt was insufficient to give you the information you

12     needed, and that's why you sent Juric there to be your eyes and ears.

13     And what I am saying is that on the 14th, by with withdrawing

14     Major Juric, that puts you back in the situation where you were before

15     Operation Storm; right?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   What additional means of information were you getting after the

18     14th of August, that you didn't have prior to Operation Storm.

19        A.   The scope of activities of the MP units in the newly liberated

20     area and the establishment of the civilian system.  That is the

21     establishment of the civilian authorities no longer required forward

22     command posts of the military police administration to establish the

23     priorities and tasks of the military police.

24             That's why I rendered null and void my order of the 2nd of August

25     and allowed the regular system which had been in place before Storm with

Page 15456

 1     some adjustments because of the situation on the ground to function and

 2     all this is dealt with in this order, containing 14 points.

 3        Q.   Okay.  If you look at paragraph 7 what you order is that:

 4             "In order to supervise and control the entry and exit from the

 5     newly liberated areas of the Republic of Croatia, unit commanders of the

 6     military police shall start to analyse the check-points in their zones of

 7     responsibility and, in line with the assessment and together with the MUP

 8     chief and police administration chiefs, they shall set up joint

 9     check-points which will work energetically to prevent unauthorised entry.

10     They shall check and search cars to prevent the uncontrolled and

11     unauthorised removal of war booty from the newly liberated areas of the

12     Republic of Croatia."

13             You issue a tactical order here:

14             "Members of the army and police shall carry out the task without

15     protective gear and shall be armed with short-barrelled machine-guns."

16             Now, if I understand it correctly, the system that was this place

17     pursuant to this order was that the military police commanders were to

18     come up with their own assessment of where the best check-points would be

19     and then liaise with their colleagues in the MUP to coordinate

20     activities; correct?

21        A.   Together with my colleagues from the Ministry of Interior, they

22     would carry out an analysis and agree on the new positions of the

23     check-points.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could go to D292, please.

Page 15457

 1        Q.   Now, this is your report on the engagement of the military police

 2     units in Operation Storm, your first report which was on the 15th of

 3     August.  And you write it to the Chief of Staff, General Cervenko.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  And if we turn to page 3 in the English, please,

 5     which is just before section number 2.  Page 2 in the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   You write --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Oh, sorry.

 8        Q.   You write that:

 9             "The system of preparation, planning, control and command at the

10     level of the VP administration and the daily operational orders issued by

11     the commanders of the Military Districts and the armed forces of the

12     Republic of Croatia made it possible for the military police to perform

13     all its tasks and for military police units to be engaged in the

14     offensive operations."

15             Now, this was an accurate statement of the fact that the

16     preparation, planning, command and control were at the level of the

17     military police administration and the daily operational command was at

18     the level of the Military Districts; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 13 in the English.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             MR. MISETIC:  Page 6 in the original.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Looking again at paragraph 5.3, you wrote that:

Page 15458

 1             "In larger places and towns, 24-hour patrols and beat service are

 2     securing public peace and order, preventing arson and uncontrolled

 3     removal of the spoils of war, and taking care of road traffic safety.

 4     They are" --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page.  Thank you.

 6        Q.    "Still securing major military depots ..."

 7             MR. MISETIC:  And if we can go in the next page in English.

 8        Q.   Now in the conclusion section, again, you said:

 9             "The military police administration and units of the military

10     police successfully carried out the preparations and tasks relating to

11     the Operation Oluja.  The preparation, planning and engagement of

12     military police units, the command of joint actions with the HV, SIS,

13     Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Interior were at a high level, and

14     the problems were solved as one went along.  Therefore, we are of the

15     opinion that units of the military police performed all their tasks

16     relating to the preparation and execution of Operation Storm [sic].

17     Their engagement largely contributed to the swift liberation of the

18     occupied territories."

19             Now, you will agree with me that in this report, first of all,

20     and I will get to the recommendation section; so you don't have to start

21     there right now, believe me.  But just as a matter of the state, in the

22     military police there wasn't a suggestion in your report that there was a

23     shortage of military policemen or that the military police was unable to

24     fulfil all of its duties; correct?

25        A.   No, that's correct, I mean.  As you can see, I didn't because I

Page 15459

 1     had everything I could have had at that moment.

 2        Q.   Now, we've talked about what -- you made recommendations about

 3     doing things in the line of command, and I'd like to turn to page 15 to

 4     see what your proposals were in terms of what specifically you were

 5     suggesting.  And the recommendations were, at point 1, is to:

 6             "Confiscate weapons and MES without fail from members of the HV

 7     so that they would not take them home and thereby endanger their family

 8     members and cause public danger in the Republic of Croatia; that

 9     commanders the HV units assistants for political activities and

10     assistants for SIS take all necessary steps before demobilisation,

11     discharge and departure of members of the guards who are inspecting the

12     equipment and other items they are carrying home with them and take

13     responsibility for the fulfilment of this task.  Through the chain of

14     command, members of the HV should be prevented from wandering around the

15     liberated areas, on the roads without any control so to save them from

16     being hurt by the planned -- planted MES and anti-tank mines.  So far two

17     members of the HV were willed this way.

18              "3, through the chain of command" --

19             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page, please, in both the

20     English and Croatian.

21        Q.   "A ban should be imposed" --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. ...

23             MR. MISETIC:  Oh, I'm sorry.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, sometimes the interpreters get so much

25     behind that apparently they are forced, more or less, to translate from

Page 15460

 1     the screen rather than to be able to follow, and sometimes portions are

 2     missing; so could I urge you to really slow down especially when you are

 3     reading.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. MISETIC:

 7        Q.    "A ban should be imposed" -- Sorry, for the record, let me ...

 8             At point 3:  "A ban should be imposed on using unregistered motor

 9     vehicles; spoils of war measures should be undertaken to register these

10     vehicles which would improve road safety and appearance of the army

11     vehicles on the roads."

12             Point 4:  "Through the chain of command, it should be ensured

13     that members of the HV are quickly issued with passes or certificates

14     proving that they are members of the HV.  By checking these documents,

15     the military police can establish if a person is really a member of the

16     HV and preventing non-members from walking around in HV uniforms."

17             5 is:  "Garrison commanders or town commanders of the liberated

18     towns should be quickly appointed in order to facilitate the carrying out

19     of police work and control of the HV troops staying in those areas."

20             And then requests for an instruction concerning Bosnian army

21     soldiers.

22             Now, at this point, your recommendations, you would agree with

23     me, are not suggesting that military commanders are not undertaking

24     enough disciplinary measures, for example?

25        A.   These recommendations primarily signify that what we record as a

Page 15461

 1     consequence has as its cause failure to comply with what we proposed be

 2     carried out through the line of command.

 3             So we proposed that the line of command take measures to

 4     establish firm discipline among members of the Croatian army, to ensure

 5     that all the rules in force in the Croatian army be respected, thereby

 6     preventing what has been registered as the consequence of failure to

 7     comply with these rules.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Just one moment.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             MR. MISETIC:

11        Q.   Let me ask you just a few questions.  One, are you aware of the

12     statistics of disciplinary measures taken in the Split Military District

13     for soldiers leaving their unit or being absent from their unit?  In the

14     third quarter, meaning July -- sorry, August, September, October of 1995.

15        A.   I don't have that information.

16        Q.   Okay.  One of your recommendation, in fact, was at point 2 was to

17     stop soldiers from wandering around the area.  One of the means a

18     commander would have at his disposal to prevent a soldier from wandering

19     around the area is to issue discipline for the soldier not being in his

20     unit when he is supposed to be in his unit; correct?

21        A.   Leaving one's unit is something that is prescribed in the rules

22     of service, especially at times of high alert, which is especially

23     emphasised.

24        Q.   Now, if you look --

25             MR. MISETIC:  If we can have P880 on the screen again.  Page 15

Page 15462

 1     in the English, and this is Article 25 of the rules, 1994 rules.

 2             Sorry, it's -- page 15, I'm sorry.

 3        Q.   Article 25 says that it's the search service of the military

 4     police that performs searchs to locate, capture, and arrest the

 5     perpetrator of a crime that falls within the jurisdiction of a military

 6     court; to locate, ascertain the address, capture or arrest HV members,

 7     and searches for items solely pursuant to -- it's an order by a military

 8     court to issue an arrest warrant.

 9             2 is a search request by the HV unit commander in charge.

10             And 3 is a search request or find request by the criminal

11     military police in the unit, or by request from the military police

12     administration's criminal investigations department of the military

13     police.

14             So if soldiers are wandering around and the commander doesn't

15     know where they are, one of the ways he finds out where his soldiers are

16     is to issue a search request to the military police to go find them;

17     correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And it's a request that he is allowed to issue, not an order;

20     correct?

21        A.   An order, yes.

22        Q.   Well it says it's a request.

23        A.   It doesn't change anything.  It doesn't change anything in

24     essence.  An order is issued to the military police, Such-and-such a

25     soldier left his unit on his own initiate.  Find him.

Page 15463

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit D192 on the

 2     screen, please.

 3        Q.   I'm just going to give you an example from August 1995.

 4             This is from Commander Danijel Kotlar and he sends --let me wait

 5     for the English.

 6             Again, it's a request for forcible apprehension.  It's dated 3rd

 7     of September 1995 and a list of names that goes on, I believe to the next

 8     page, of members of his unit that is he looking for.

 9             This is the type of thing a commander would do as you suggested

10     in point 2, to try to find his soldiers and prevent them from wandering

11     around the liberated areas; correct?

12        A.   Yes.  But I don't see here whether these soldiers left the unit

13     of their own will, and they had already been mobilised and had been

14     members of the unit or whether it is simply a failure to respond to a

15     call-up.

16        Q.   The Trial Chamber has evidence on that point but was more

17     interested in the form that would be taken.

18             Mr. Lausic, your report -- do you agree with me that your report

19     to General Cervenko on the 15th does not depict an extraordinary

20     situation in the field for the military police?

21        A.   Yes.  The report says that all available forces and means are

22     being used and that we are successfully carrying out the tasks falling

23     within the scope of work of the military police.  In order to be more

24     effective and for the situation to be improved, the proposals I list

25     should be adopted.

Page 15464

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit P878,

 2     please.

 3        Q.   This is your order of the 16th of August.  It went to all

 4     military police units and to all administration departments and sections.

 5             And your preamble says that:

 6             "The conditions have been created for a change in the deployment

 7     of units of the military police in the newly liberated areas as well as

 8     the manner of carrying out military police tasks."

 9             And then you issue an order.

10             You define in the fist two paragraphs the territorial

11     jurisdiction of certain military police units.

12             MR. MISETIC:  If we can turn the page in English, I'm sorry.

13             If we could go to paragraph 4 at the bottom.

14        Q.   You're talking about abolishing check-points towards the free

15     areas of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the zones of

16     responsibility of the 69th, 70th, and 71st Battalions:

17             "The check-points will be taken over by staff of the RH MUP."

18             Again, these are operational matters, you agree, that you're

19     issuing orders about?

20        A.   Yes, operational issues of strategic importance.

21             MR. MISETIC:  If we can go to paragraph 6, please.

22        Q.   I'll ask you -- let me just tell you what this is.

23             In paragraph 6 you say:

24             "In all zones of responsibility, ensure that commanders of

25     military police units are familiar with the deployment of HV units on the

Page 15465

 1     line of defence and at camp sites, the strength of the units, the time

 2     and direction of redeployment or departure of the military police

 3     units ... and that they have the telephone numbers of the commander and

 4     vice versa, thus ensuring knowledge of the zone of responsibility on the

 5     basis of which the engagement of the VP patrols shall ... be planned."

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7        Q.   First, explain to the Court why, if a military police commander

 8     is under the daily operational command of a HV commander, why you need to

 9     issue an order telling them that they have to have the telephone numbers

10     of the commander and vice versa?

11        A.   This was a change of tactics and methodology of the military

12     police.  We realised that we were using staff and vehicles inefficiently

13     at check-points; whereas, in the newly liberated area, there were

14     offences taking place at the same time.

15             Another reason was that members of the HV no longer individually

16     looted, coming across check-points where they would be prevented or

17     taking alternative routes but rather --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lausic, I stop you here for a second.

19             Apparently what Mr. Misetic wants to know is why if this is an

20     existing command and reporting structure where military police units are

21     subordinated to the HV Military Districts, if that exists, why would you

22     have to exchange phone numbers?  And that's the question because there

23     must be lines of communication in existence, so, therefore, why is there

24     a need for telephone numbers.

25             Mr. Misetic --

Page 15466

 1             That's what he is talking about.  Could you tell us.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, and Mr. Misetic,

 3     because that was not functioning.  When I toured the field, as well as

 4     some of my subordinate officers from the MP administration, we realised

 5     that the commanders of MP units do not know what units there are in their

 6     areas of responsibility, where those units are billets, how to get in

 7     touch with the respective commanders.  Instead of that, we simply waited

 8     at check-points, whilst the soldiers changed their methods of

 9     transporting looted goods.  They no longer individually left the area in

10     a stolen or someone else's vehicle.  But in the locations of their camps,

11     were warehousing the looted goods, although we, in the police, would use

12     a different term for that; and then when, the unit, in full strength was

13     leaving the area, they would simply take the goods with them in a

14     military convoy in which there are several hundred soldiers, dozens of

15     military vehicles and, in such instances, be it at the check-point or at

16     any other point, the military police could no longer be efficient.

17             In item 6 of my order, I ordered that the commanders MP units

18     and, of course, via HV commands to which they were subordinated, in terms

19     of daily operational command, should get acquainted with the locations of

20     HV units, their commanders, get their phone numbers, learn of the dates

21     when the units were supposed to leave the area, et cetera, et cetera.  We

22     changed the methods and tactics, based on the information we received

23     when touring the field and reports.

24             MR. MISETIC:

25        Q.   Mr. Lausic, let me follow up with this.

Page 15467

 1             You toured the field, you say you saw large -- sorry.  Military

 2     convoys with several hundreds soldiers looting.  How did that turn out,

 3     when you conducted the criminal investigation that you were required to

 4     carry out?  What was the result of the criminal investigation?

 5        A.   I can only say the following:  I personally apprehended dozens

 6     upon dozens of HV members, together with my escort and driver.  I

 7     frequently used to say that I rode around in a bus rather than in an

 8     off-road vehicle.  Within an hour, the vehicle would be full of HV

 9     members.

10        Q.   That's your job.  So I don't know if you expect accolades for

11     doing your job.  But I'm asking you a specific question.  You have now

12     alleged that saw large convoys of soldiers looting, and I'm asking you

13     how did your criminal investigation turn out?  You're aware, as an

14     official, you had a legal duty to carry out an investigation; correct?

15        A.   It is it, and that's what we did.  If we went back to the

16     archives of the MP administration, we would see that some offences were

17     prosecuted and processed, and criminal reports submitted against

18     perpetrators based on my own personal action which is a sorry fact, I

19     must say.

20             In addition to that, you have summary reports on the activities

21     of the regular duty police, crime investigation police, and traffic

22     military police for the entire 1995, as well as during the particular

23     periods of Operation Storm.  I would say that that data is quite

24     dramatic.

25        Q.   Okay.  So just to clarify, what you saw in the field, what you

Page 15468

 1     observed about large convoys, your testimony is that your military police

 2     conducted an investigation of that?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   Now, I'd ask to you remember number 6, about getting the

 5     telephone numbers because it's relevant to the next document I want to

 6     show you hopefully -- and, oh, while this is on the screen.

 7             It is copied to the commanders of the Military Districts in

 8     Bjelovar, Zagreb, Osijek, Karlovac and Gospic.  Is there a reason that

 9     this order wasn't copied to the commander of the Split Military District?

10        A.   I cannot provide an explanation for that.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit P877,

12     please.

13        Q.   This is the order you issued to the military police units after

14     getting that correspond from Mr. Lausic [sic] on the 7th and after you

15     testified that had you an oral conversation, you will recall, I believe,

16     on the second day of your testimony you said that you and Mr. Moric spoke

17     by phone and you said to Mr. Moric something to the effect of, Josko you

18     issue an order to your people, and I'm going to issue an order to my

19     people.

20             Do you remember saying something to that effect?

21        A.   That is correct.

22        Q.   The preamble of this document, again, refers to Mr. Moric's

23     letter of the 17th, talks about daily recorded examples of houses being

24     burned, of illegal taking away of the other people's moveable property

25     and other illegal behaviour.

Page 15469

 1             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn the page in English, please.

 2        Q.   Now, right before the order in the preamble, you say:

 3             "In the orders of the military police administration issued thus

 4     far and in the mandatory instructions given to you ... the need to ensure

 5     public law and order on liberated territory and prevent any unlawful

 6     conduct by HV troops was pointed out on several occasions.  Since it is

 7     evident from the above mentioned MUP communication and the ambassador's

 8     letter [sic] of protest that the military police has not carried out its

 9     tasks to the full and expected extent, I hereby issue the following

10     order."

11             Point 1 is for the commanders of the platoons, companies, and

12     battalions to immediately get in contact with the chiefs of the police

13     stations and the heads of the police administration in its area and to

14     have a joint meeting, and that was to work out the -- to analyse the

15     situation and establish [indiscernible] cooperation.

16             Point 2 is commanders of platoons, companies -- sorry, and

17     battalions are to immediately get in contact with the highest-ranking HV

18     commander and to implement item 6.

19             And there's -- item 6, again, was the item about getting their

20     telephone number so they could know where the units are going to be.

21             Number 3 was to compile notes of the meetings with the commanders

22     of the police stations and chiefs of police stations.  The records should

23     be compiled in the battalions and they should be submitted to the

24     military police administration.

25             Now, your response to Mr. Moric's letter was to order your units

Page 15470

 1     to work closely with the MUP, to come up with a plan, to have meetings

 2     with the MUP, and advise you of what your military police commanders and

 3     the police officials -- civilian police officials had agreed upon;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   It is.

 6        Q.   There's nothing in the order --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, we --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Just one --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You did quite a bit of reading.  If there is one

10     short question I will allow you to put it now.  Otherwise we adjourn.

11             MR. MISETIC:

12        Q.   A short question, Mr. Lausic, so hopefully we'll get a short

13     answer.

14             Nothing in this order says that the military police commanders

15     are to go to the HV commanders to get instructions on what they should be

16     doing; correct?

17        A.   To acquaint them with the methodology and tactics of work or with

18     the tasks that they had?

19        Q.   Specifically, you didn't say, Based on Mr. Moric's letter, go to

20     the HV commanders and get orders as to what you should be doing.

21        A.   This order was forwarded to the Military District Commanders as

22     well.  You can see in the preamble that what the reason was for this

23     order.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, we're late, so I'll pick up

Page 15471

 1     tomorrow.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Mr. Misetic.

 3             Mr. Lausic, I would like to instruct you again that not to speak

 4     with anyone about the testimony, whether already given or still to be

 5     given; and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 because

 6     we'll adjourn and resume on Friday, the 30th of January, 9.00 in the

 7     morning, in Courtroom II.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of

10                           January, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.