1 Thursday, 19 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that there was some procedural issues to
12 be raised.
13 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 Once again, I have to regretfully notify the Chamber that we
15 received another six exhibits last night from the Office of the
16 Prosecutor that were not on the exhibit list. Photographs of Obrovac, a
17 map of Obrovac, a map of Gracac city, a map of Benkovac. Certainly
18 nothing that happened during the course of Mr. Rajcic's testimony
19 yesterday elicited the need to go back to the archives of the Office of
20 the Prosecutor to put these documents on the witness list [sic] and not
21 on the 65 ter list. Well, if can I look at them. One of them is -- the
22 4866 is on it and 6165 is part of P549, but the others are not.
23 In any event, none of them were on the exhibit list, and at this
24 juncture, Mr. President, this has been going on for weeks, my question
25 rhetorically is when does it end? There has been a continuous flouting
1 of the rules by the Prosecution to the extent that the Prosecution
2 believes that there are no rules concerning disclosure. And that's in
3 fact we are at this juncture. I bring it to Your Honours' attention
4 again. I certainly can read the 65 ter numbers that were sent to us late
5 last night, not late last night, but last evening. And we can object to
6 this practice. We object to all of these exhibits coming into evidence
7 and the late disclosure, and it continues to be something that prejudices
8 the Defence and continues to be something that the Prosecution fails to
9 justify and show good cause to the Chamber, why they continue to conduct
10 themselves in this fashion.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
12 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Mr. President.
13 The exhibits that were sent over as Mr. Kehoe indicated, the maps
14 of Benkovac, Gracac, and Obrovac are all on the 65 ter list. One of them
15 is in fact an enlargement of an admitted exhibit.
16 In any event, these are unmarked maps. We have any number of
17 maps of Sector South which, if enlarged would simply show the same thing
18 I'm going to be showing to the witness and asking him to identify the
19 locations of targets. I don't understand what the prejudice is of
20 showing the witness an unmarked map that I'm not going to be admitting.
21 I'm going to be seeking to admit what he puts on the map, which obviously
22 I could not have provide notice of.
23 I'm not sure what the argument is that there's a problem with
24 using a map as a demonstrative aid to testimony, in any case, as I
25 indicated, although they were clearly not on the first exhibit list or
1 the amended exhibit list that I sent over, they are on the 65 ter list
2 and even in evidence.
3 To suggest that there is some form of prejudice by putting in an
4 unmarked map of something that is part of many admitted exhibits doesn't
5 seem to make sense.
6 In any event, Your Honour, on cross-examination the Prosecution
7 often receives additional documents from the Defence during the course of
8 cross-examination. We don't make an issue of that. It does happen that
9 sometimes what witnesses say may bring another document to the mind of
10 the examiner. I don't see where that's a problem. The witness indicated
11 yesterday that he personally planned the targets for Benkovac, Obrovac,
12 and Gracac. That was not indicated in any of the documents that we have.
13 I was going ask him what the targets were to the extent he could recall.
14 But now that he indicates that he planned it out, it seems it would make
15 sense to ask him to indicate to the Court the locations of those targets.
16 That's all I have to say, Your Honour.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will deal with the matter on a
19 case-by-case basis. Of course, when the matter was raised, the Chamber
20 was unaware of whether these were unmarked maps. Once we see the
21 exhibits, we'll see whether there's anything more than just a map, and
22 we'll then see to what extent it is prejudicial to use that exhibit.
23 That's the way in which we will proceed.
24 There is anything else to be raised at this moment.
25 MR. KEHOE: If I may, on that score, I don't know if we're going
1 to get to these maps, but certainly 65 ter 7169, that is apparently taken
2 from P190, or records reflect have not yet even been disclosed in
3 e-court, so ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: If it will be used, then we can have a look at it,
5 and -- Mr. Russo, I do understand and there's no misunderstanding that it
6 is just blank maps as -- just as to be used as an aid rather as the maps
7 in itself having any probative value.
8 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 MR. KEHOE: That is not completely accurate. There are
11 photographs as well.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I meant maps and photographs. I was not very
13 precise in that.
14 Any other ...
15 Then the Chamber has one question for you, Mr. Mikulicic. You
16 asked to be present at the other side of the line in a videolink
17 testimony. The Chamber would like to hear from you what the specific
18 reasons why you want to be there rather than here.
19 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, the only specific reason which I had
20 in mind is that is completely different situation when the Defence is
21 dealing with a very important witness in situ than via the videolink. So
22 my attention was when I ask for it, to be present in situ so that I can
23 be close to witness to see his reaction on my question, to see the
24 conversation and the cross-examination between the Defence counsel and
25 the witness in every -- in every way is much more personal when the both
1 of them are in the very same room, in the courtroom.
2 So my intention was to be in situ as to provide the best possible
3 cross-examination on behalf of my client. And when I check the rules I
4 see no reason what that couldn't be allowed. So that was my request.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me then first ask, Mr. Russo, the wish to
6 be present at the other side of the videolink, or in situ as
7 Mr. Mikulicic tells us, would that still exist if the Defence would not
8 be there? Is it totally dependant on the meeting the -- the wishes of
9 the Defence? Or is there any independent reason why the Prosecution
10 would like to be at the other end of the line?
11 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry, Your Honour, are you asking me --
12 JUDGE ORIE: What I'm saying, you said if Mr. Mikulicic will be
13 there, then someone of the Prosecution should be there as well.
14 MR. MIKULICIC: I believe Mr. Saklaine said that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour, that is our request.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do see that. But if for whatever reason
18 Mr. Mikulicic would not be there, would there still be a wish to be
19 present at the other end of the line?
20 MR. RUSSO: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So it is totally dependant ...
22 The Chamber will have to balance the advantages which you just
23 explained and the disadvantages that may be there as well.
24 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. I would just like to stress
25 one point, although I think I did it already. This is a very, very
1 important witness for the Markac Defence. So it is my opinion that I, by
2 all means, have to be present in the very same room with that witness to
3 conduct a proper cross-examination, and that is also a wish and a request
4 of my client as well.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that you do this upon
7 You say it's a very important witness. I'd like to see how the
8 witness response. Is there anything else, anything specific? Why is it
9 -- why is this witness so important for that you that --
10 MR. MIKULICIC: Maybe just to add, Your Honour, on that topic, I
11 should use a lot of documents in cross-examination of that witness, so
12 the manipulation of the documents is obviously much more convenient
13 in situ situation than via the videolink, although that is that very much
14 depends on the technical facilities.
15 But any way, I do really strongly request that I have to be
16 present in situ in Zagreb
18 JUDGE ORIE: Has in the Prosecution any specific view on the
20 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Mr. President.
21 I believe there is an concern, especially given the fact there
22 will be a protective measures motion for the witness that there is a
23 concern that if the witness sees simply accused for one -- counsel for
24 one accused of whom he will be offering testimony, it may tend to make
25 him think that this is, for some reason, which he is unable to discern,
1 it may cause the witness additional hesitation in offering testimony.
2 I'm not sure what the specific advantages are that Mr. Mikulicic points
3 out. I understand it may be to his preference to be in the room, look
4 the witness in the eye, observe the witness's demeanour on testimony.
5 However, that, I would submit, is for the finder of fact to evaluate the
6 demeanor of the witness, not for counsel.
7 It's for that reason, Your Honour, not sure having a videolink
8 with individuals present during the questioning is necessary. But that
9 is why we would also seek to be present, if Mr. Mikulicic is permitted to
10 do so.
11 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, of course, I have nothing to object
12 at the request of the -- my learned friend from the Prosecution office.
13 That is obviously. And I don't think that the reasoning as to the
14 witness could be in a way intimidated by the presence of only one
15 counsel. I think this is not a reason for this at all.
16 Why should the witness feel himself uncomfortable because only
17 one counsel is present in situ I cannot see reason for it.
18 Anyway, why should the witness be uncomfortable at all? I mean,
19 on the other side it is a Prosecution witness, and the Prosecution could
20 instruct the witness on procedural matters in that case, in that very
21 specific case, so I can see no reason why not, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
23 Mr. Mikulicic, how do you imagine this to be done? Usually in a
24 videolink the Chamber has a constant view on the witness. How did you
25 imagine that the camera would be used at the other side of the line, if
1 there would be two counsel and one witness?
2 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, obviously, I'm not very good in
3 technicalities, so I haven't those circumstances in my mind when asking
4 for it. The only -- the only preference was that I simply should comply
5 my client's request and cross-examination on the very best way that I can
6 do. So I haven't in mind those technicalities, but I mean, just talking
7 at the top of my head, that could be placed two cameras, so one camera
8 could be focussed on examiner, whether it will be a Prosecution colleague
9 on the place, or will be I, or myself.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and would we then receive all the imagines
11 simultaneously in your mind or ... because it is more than just
12 technicalities. I take it that you understand that it's more than just
13 the voltage and the zoom in or out.
14 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, I am aware of your concern, but what
15 is my position, is that the right of accused vice versa the technical
16 possibilities is something that could not be compared.
17 So whatever it is, I think the right of accused is to be
18 prevailed in such circumstances.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And the right of the accused being what exactly?
20 You're referring to what right exactly?
21 MR. MIKULICIC: Well, I'm exactly aiming at the right of accused
22 to have an undisturbed cross-examination via witness who is, in that
23 case, particularly very important for the Defence.
24 So I think it is quite obvious that there is completely different
25 situation to examine the witness via videolink than to examine the
1 witness sitting in a very same room with him.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, if we're not mistaken -- I'm sorry,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic was first on his feet, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
5 Mr. Misetic.
6 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I would just going to add that
7 there, of course, is a -- in response to Mr. Russo, there is a legitimate
8 forensic purpose in cross-examination to being able to confront a witness
9 in person versus via videolink, which is I think what my colleague
10 Mr. Mikulicic is trying to emphasise. And I just wanted to recall that I
11 think we've had one experience before, the Chamber will recall, with a
12 witness who in middle of cross-examination was willing to even set up a
13 videolink so he wouldn't have to come back at that point, and that's
14 precisely where we're getting at in terms of -- I think the Chamber then
15 made special arrangements to make sure that that witness could come back
16 specifically for that forensic purpose in cross-examination. I
17 understand that the Chamber has had to weigh the technical possibilities
18 versus that forensic advantage. But I did want to put that on the
19 record, in response to Mr. Russo.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sorry.
23 If I'm not mistaken, I think there was at least one occasion when
24 the Prosecution was present at a videolink conducting direct examination
25 of a protected witness, and I'm almost sure that it happened on one
1 occasion, and it was a -- I can't remember if was a woman protected
2 witness or a male protected witness, but I do recall one occasion that
3 that occurred.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think this should be a gender-neutral issue.
5 Apart from that, Mr. Russo, I have to -- was this in this case? I may
6 have ...
7 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, I don't recall that happening. But I
8 assume if it happened, it is easily found.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will have a look at it at least, and also
10 we'll then consider whether there were any specific reasons, and the
11 Chamber will further consider your request, Mr. Mikulicic.
12 Could I ask whether the other Defence teams would also then want
13 to be present for cross-examination purposes? Or slowly we move to a
14 situation where almost the Bench could go there.
15 MS. HIGGINS: We would not seek to be present, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. MISETIC: Nor would we, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 The Chamber will --
20 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, just to add something.
21 Is my understanding that the kind of procedures that we're
22 dealing with on the everyday basis is a procedure that is prescripted by
23 the rules as a so-called normal circumstances. The videolink is kind of
24 exceptional circumstances where, according to 81 bis, Chamber may order
25 in the interest of justice.
1 So if we have this in mind, and when we are arguing whether I
2 could be present or not, I think that is something that I would like the
3 Chamber as to concerned of.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider all the submissions made by the
5 parties, and the Chamber will give a ruling soon.
6 Now, what was the date scheduled, do we remember, Mr. Mikulicic?
7 So that we -- I take it that if you want to be present, you have to
8 prepare to make arrangements, so, therefore, it is in your interest to
9 know as soon as possible -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, that will be -- that wouldn't
11 be a problem for me.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No. But for when was it -- was the testimony
13 scheduled exactly?
14 MR. MISETIC: I believe it's the 26th of February.
15 JUDGE ORIE: 26th of February. Today it's the 19th. That would
16 be -- yes, 26th or 27th.
17 The Chamber will further consider the matter, and to the extent
18 possible, already inform you about the outcome of our deliberations on
19 this matter before the weekend, Mr. Mikulicic. If not, we'll certainly
20 be in touch with you through our legal officer to tell you when you can
21 expect a decision, but we're trying to have it done before the weekend.
22 MR. MIKULICIC: I'm grateful, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Then, Mr. Misetic.
25 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, just one other procedural matter.
1 The Court will recall when Witness Lausic testified that there
2 was a discussion, and he was asked to provide his original diary to the
4 received anything, and I wanted to get that before the end of the
5 Prosecution's case, if possible.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The registry informs me that the material will
8 arrive in The Hague
9 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Russo, are you ready to --
11 MR. RUSSO: I am, Your Honour. I just wanted to advise everyone
12 that the first exhibit I'm going to be showing the witness is the map of
13 Benkovac, and I'm going to show him the other maps, just so that
14 everybody is clear that is what I am going to be doing in the beginning.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you can have -- already look at the map to
16 see what the map is and -- but it's just a map.
17 MR. RUSSO: Sure. That's 65 ter 5186.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps waiting for the arrival of the witness,
19 perhaps we could already have a look at it.
20 Mr. Kehoe, if this map would be used, you oppose against
21 admissions because it was not on the exhibit list. Could you further
22 explain what the prejudice would be if this map was used to -- to
23 indicate locations, because that's what I expect Mr. Russo to ask the
24 witness to do.
25 MR. KEHOE: It has to do with -- yes, Mr. President, it has to do
1 with pre-trial preparation. Naturally, Your Honour, you were trial
2 counsel, when you get exhibits from the other side, you go back, look at
3 those exhibits, examine your files, and do pre-trial preparation with
4 those exhibits. During the course of our -- the rolling disclosure by
5 the Prosecution having had this map, certainly we would have taken
6 extensive time to go through all the information knowing that the
7 Prosecution was going to used it. We didn't know they were going to use
8 it until late last night.
9 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I prefer to have the witness
10 out of the courtroom while the basis for Mr. Kehoe's objection is --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one second only.
12 Yes, Mr. Kehoe.
13 MR. KEHOE: So frankly, Your Honour, it would go to pre-trial
14 preparation. Certainly as we informed Your Honour, we were discussing a
15 variety of matters with Mr. Rajcic during last week, and during this role
16 in discovery, we certainly showed him many of the exhibits that were part
17 of his annex that were coming in that the Prosecution intended to tender.
18 And certainly this would have been one we would have shown him as well.
19 So even putting that aside just for our own purposes internally,
20 know what the Prosecution is going to attempt to offer goes directly to
21 our pre-trial preparation, which, again, because of the Prosecutor's
22 conduct, they have prevented us from doing so. Or to the extent that we
23 have been able to do it, we have to do it at the last minute and -- this
24 is just gone on and on, and this is just another instance of it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, just to put matters straight, I take it
1 your objection is against the use of this map and not about asking
2 questions to the witness about targets he may have identified or
3 determined in the Benkovac -- town of Benkovac or the area.
4 MR. KEHOE: If we take this -- if we take this particular map
5 parenthetically and just look at this map, yes, that's the case. But
6 again, in response to what Mr. Russo said previously, these are a series
7 of violations which I think [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Kehoe. Mr. Kehoe.
9 I asked you a specific question.
10 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I did not invite you to repeat what you said earlier
12 as the basis of your objection.
13 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: I asked whether there is any objection against
15 Mr. Russo asking questions about targets in Benkovac in -- or around
17 MR. KEHOE: And I believe my answer to that is, no. He can
18 certainly ask that question.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, yes.
20 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: On the basis of what has been said until now, the
24 Chamber sees no reason to sustain the objection. We'll finally decide
25 the matter at the -- once the map is tendered.
1 Good morning, Mr. Rajcic. Mr. Rajcic --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajcic, I would like to remind you that you are
4 still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your
5 testimony, that you would speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
6 but the truth.
7 Mr. Russo will now continue his examination-in-chief.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Russo.
9 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 WITNESS: MARKO RAJCIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Mr. Russo: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rajcic.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. You see before you on the screen a map of the area of Benkovac.
16 I'd like to you please indicate, if I could have the assistance of the
17 court usher, I'm going to ask to you indicate the areas where the targets
18 that were fired upon by Croatian forces were located, and I would like to
19 take them one by one.
20 Now, first if you could tell us if you need this image enlarged
21 any, you can let us know.
22 A. No, thanks, this will do.
23 Q. As I said, I would like to take the targets one by one. So if
24 you could first tell us in order of importance; that is in order of
25 military significant, what the first target was in Benkovac that you
1 fired at.
2 A. The first target at Benkovac was the Slobodan Macura barracks;
3 the second was the police station; the third target was the cross-roads
4 and a barracks right above the toponym Benkovacko Selo, but I don't think
5 I can see it here.
6 Q. Thank you. Now if you would, please, circle the Slobodan Macura
7 barracks. And if you are unable to circle only that barracks, then we
8 can have the image enlarged so that you circle only what you fired at.
9 So just let us know if you need us to enlarge it, if not, please
10 circle that barracks and place a number 1 next to it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have the right colour for marking? I always
12 forget which --
13 MR. RUSSO: It's been a while, Your Honour. I think we are red.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You're red.
15 You can mark that on the screen.
16 Madam Usher, perhaps you assist the witness.
17 Please mark the first targets, if you take it one by one,
18 Mr. Russo.
19 MR. RUSSO: Yes.
20 Q. Please circle the Slobodan Macura barracks and place a number 1
21 next to it.
22 A. The Slobodan Macura barracks is in the direction of Klicevica,
23 hereabouts. The police station was precisely determined by the X and Y
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you add a 1 next to the barracks, and a 2 to
1 the police station.
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
4 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. I believe you indicated that the third target was the
6 cross-roads. Can you please circle which cross-roads you are referring
8 A. As far as I remember, I would have to look it up on the map.
9 I'll put a number 3 next to it.
10 And the fourth high-payoff target was in this direction, above
11 this toponym, but we can't see it, we should have to scroll up.
12 Q. Can you simply place the number 4 directly above the word
14 A. Number 4. But this isn't accurate because the target was further
15 to the north.
16 Q. I understand that. Thank you. We'll note that for the record.
17 Were there any other targets inside the town of Benkovac that
18 were fired at by Croatian forces on either the 4th or 5th of August?
19 A. I have no information or reports from Artillery Group 5 to be
20 able to say within a degree of certainty whether they fired at that
21 target. Relying on my memory, without a table of targets or the map that
22 we looked at yesterday, and which was used in the book, I would have to
23 look up the numbers assigned to these targets and possible other targets
24 in the periphery of Benkovac.
25 Q. And the map that you're referring to, which map is that that you
1 would need to look at?
2 A. Excuse me.
3 Mr. Russo, yesterday we spoke about the map showing the plan of
4 activity of the artillery which was made for the book, and the book says
5 for Artillery Group 5 -- or mentions several marks, and I believe that
6 these marks are 301 and further -- it continues in sequence. That's the
7 map I mean.
8 Q. And just to be clear, is that the map which contained the
9 rectangular target boxes?
10 A. Yes. The map which was graphically edited and on which
11 Mr. Brkljaca wrote. There are numerical marks of the areas where the
12 targets were located, and next to each rectangle there was a number.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, you recall from the version of the map which we
14 showed you yesterday, which was simply an enlargement of the picture that
15 appears in the book, do you know where either the original or a copy of
16 that map is?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. Can you tell us when the last time you saw a copy of that map was
19 and where?
20 A. What do you mean, a copy?
21 Q. I should have been a little bit more clear. Not a copy in the
22 book itself or what I showed you yesterday. The actual -- you indicated
23 that the original map was copied for the book. Is that correct?
24 A. No, Mr. Russo, that is not what I said.
25 Q. Can you tell me then, if you know, where the original of that map
2 A. No, I can't.
3 Q. Other than the copy that's in the book, do you know where any
4 other copies of that map are?
5 A. I apologise, Mr. Russo. You're talking about copies. There is
6 no copy of the original. In Croatian, the -- every detail from the
7 original was transmitted or copied by hand upon another -- another copy.
8 Q. And that other copy that you're talking about, do you know where
9 that is?
10 A. I, again, fail to understand "the other copy."
11 If you mean the copy which was hand-drawn, drawn by hand, that
12 was used for scanning and compressing it to A4 format, so that it can be
13 used as an attachment to the book, if that's what you're referring to. I
14 think it should have been made, and this documentation which was manually
15 made, rather than copied mechanically or by means of -- or using
16 technological aids was in the possession of General Gotovina.
17 Q. And how do you know it was in the possession of General Gotovina?
18 A. Once we finished manually copying these maps, the procedure was
19 the following. The next step was scanning and putting on photographic
20 film. This was used for printing the book. All these sets were bound in
21 files and placed with General Gotovina.
22 I know because the second edition of the book, when it was being
23 published, all that material was again -- and I repeat, it was manually
24 copied, was used for the second edition of the book, because there were
25 two editions.
1 Q. When was the last time you saw that manual copy in
2 General Gotovina's possession?
3 A. I apologise, I have a problem with ...
4 I was still working as a chief of department at the main defence
5 inspectorate. When the second edition of the book was being prepared,
6 one map was missing from the set; I don't remember which. I don't
7 remember -- or, rather, sorry. It was necessary to make a new manual
9 As far as I remember, General Gotovina was still the chief
10 inspector. Based on the book, I, once more, copied this miniature
11 version of the map, of -- A4 format copied to another map, and that was
12 then again scanned and compressed and put on film. That's the last time
13 I saw that map, which was used for the book.
14 Q. Thank you. I want to continue asking you a few questions about
15 this particular map. However, first I'd like to finish with the map we
16 have on the screen right now of Benkovac, so we'll come back to the map
17 that you saw in General Gotovina's possession.
18 With respect to what's in -- what you circled here in Benkovac,
19 did you plan to fire at any other targets than the ones you've indicated
20 on this map?
21 A. To the best of my recollection, in the wider area around
22 Benkovac, the focus of our planned fire and our marking of enemy
23 positions was in the area of Kozlovac. There is the north western part,
24 above the topographic mark Skupac. It is marked as a well, because that
25 is the usual way wells are marked on a map. And there is a road in
1 yellow --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Sorry. I don't mean to cut
3 you off. I should have been more specific with my question. I'm only
4 seeking targets inside the town of Benkovac
5 that you have circled here, numbers 1, 2, and 3, were there any other
6 targets inside Benkovac proper that you had planned to fire artillery at?
7 A. Mr. Russo, I cannot remember now. The premium targets I
8 remember. There may have been more, possibly along the roads leading out
9 from the city, toward the periphery.
10 Q. Did anyone -- or were any of the artillery units of the Croatian
11 forces firing at targets in Benkovac that you did not select?
12 A. I have no information that they did.
13 Q. If, in fact, they had, as the chief of artillery for the Split
14 Military District, would that information have come to your attention?
15 A. According to the standard operating procedure, they would have
16 had to inform me of such incidents from the forward command post in
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, at this time I would offer the exhibit
20 into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Objections?
22 MR. KEHOE: Same objection.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
25 Mr. Registrar, would you please assign an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes Exhibit P2327.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Map marked by the witness and is admitted into
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.
6 If we could go into private session for just a moment, Your
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 16314-16320 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
21 MR. RUSSO:
22 Q. Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise this map as the one that we looked
23 at yesterday?
24 A. We also looked at this map yesterday.
25 Q. Thank you. And, first, can you confirm whether this is a precise
1 copy of its original?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And, again, when was the last time that you saw the original of
4 this map?
5 A. When we were working on the book.
6 Q. Is that the first edition of the book?
7 A. Yes, the first edition.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, I think the purpose to get it on the
9 screen was to identify whether this was the map shown and left in the
10 hands of the Gotovina Defence or whether it was another map. I do
11 understand that this is not the map. Could you please seek confirmation
12 of that.
13 Mr. Misetic.
14 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, first, if we could go into private
15 session for one minute.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session again.
17 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Russo.
1 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Mr. Rajcic, did you give a copy of this map to the
3 Gotovina Defence?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And do you know where any accurate-sized copies of this map; in
6 other words, ones in which we can see inside the target boxes where you
7 indicated that it would be numbers. Do you know where any copies of that
9 A. A copy of the map we have on our screens now is something that I
10 don't know the whereabouts of. Save for the fact that I see it here and
11 that I have a signed book, I don't know where the map can be found.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. RUSSO: If we could now have Exhibit P2322, MFI.
14 And if we could move to page 3 of this exhibit.
15 Q. Looking at this map on the screen, Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise
16 this as the map that we took a look at -- one of the maps that we took a
17 look at yesterday?
18 A. Yes. That's the map, a copy of my original, that we looked at
20 Q. And is this the map that you gave to the Gotovina Defence for a
21 period of time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. RUSSO: If we could now have --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, yesterday the witness testified that he
1 made a mistake when drafting this map. And it was unclear to me what the
2 effect of the mistake would have been, in terms of understanding the
3 reach of the weaponry, and I'd like you to explore that, perhaps to ask
4 him what exactly is wrong. He said to some extent it was not on this
5 map. Of course, now we have cut out part of it. If I look at the --
6 page 3 in its entirety, perhaps we can show it to the witness and ask him
7 to indicate where the mistake is because I have got no idea whether it
8 has any consequence for any followup matter.
9 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour. My understanding was, and I think
10 Counsel will correct me if I'm wrong, that the mistake was with respect
11 to the sector of fire for a 203-millimetre weapon, that it was not
12 accurately depicted on this map. It is my understanding from the
13 witness's testimony that was not one of the weapons that fired on Knin.
14 Nevertheless, I will explore with the witness --
15 JUDGE ORIE: If the parties agree that it's a matter which has no
16 further consequences, then, of course, I'm satisfied with that. But not
17 knowing it, I want to -- wanted to explore whether two weeks from now,
18 five weeks from now, we have question which is not answered.
19 MR. KEHOE: I believe my learned friend's assessment is accurate.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then we don't have to pay any further
21 attention to it.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 If we could please have 65 ter 7169. And this is a map of
1 If we could just focus a bit more on the area of Obrovac proper.
2 Thank you.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Rajcic, I'd like to engage in the same exercise here
4 with Obrovac as we did for Benkovac and have you identify for us the
5 targets that were actually fired at on the 4th and 5th of August by the
6 Croatian forces. And again let's take them one by one, beginning with
7 the most high-value target.
8 A. I don't know which targets were fired at in Obrovac.
9 Q. Who planned the targets in Obrovac?
10 A. I was planning them for Obrovac, when it comes to the artillery
11 rocket groups.
12 Q. And are you simply unable to recall what those targets were?
13 A. For the artillery of the corps, I think that one of the plans
14 included only the bridge in Benkovac [as interpreted].
15 JUDGE ORIE: The witness apparently marked the bridge. Could I
16 invite you to put a letter -- a 1 next to it.
17 MR. KEHOE: I think he is talking about Obrovac. Is -- the
18 translation on 34:15 says Benkovac, if I'm not mistaken.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have the map of Obrovac in front of us.
20 Therefore, I take it that must be a mistake.
21 You did mark the bridge in Obrovac as -- as a target you
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the level of planning, that is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So not to say that it was fired at, but that
25 was a planned target.
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Russo.
3 MR. RUSSO:
4 Q. Can you indicate to us any other planned targets in Obrovac?
5 A. In the town of Obrovac
6 Q. Thank you. And I notice that your answer was -- your first
7 indication of a target was specifically with respect to corps artillery.
8 Were there any targets which were planned to be fired at by artillery
9 units other than the corps artillery?
10 A. For engaging the targets by subordinate units, the chiefs of
11 artillery were the ones drafting the use of artillery plans in the
12 brigades, based on the intelligence they received.
13 Q. Were the targets that were selected by the chiefs of artillery in
14 Obrovac, were they sent to either you or to General Gotovina for review
15 or approval?
16 A. That was not the procedure in place; in other words, that
17 General Gotovina should receive such a report. I have the documents at
18 my disposal, and I coordinate my work with chiefs of artillery of the
19 various units, and that's how we complete the planning stage.
20 Preparations, that is.
21 Q. That was my question. I wanted to know if either you or
22 General Gotovina were made aware of what targets were selected by the
23 operational group chiefs of artillery. Were you made aware of those?
24 A. I wasn't aware of the targets selected or fired at, for that
25 matter, in Obrovac.
1 Q. Do you know if General Gotovina was aware of what targets were
2 fired at in Obrovac?
3 A. I don't, no.
4 Q. Now, if you don't know what targets were fired at by the
5 operations group chiefs of artillery, how do you know they complied with
6 the order given to shell the town of Obrovac
7 A. In the chain of command, the first filter is the brigade
8 commander, in accordance with strict instructions. The second filter is
9 the commander of the operations group. And then we come to the level of
10 the Military District.
11 Q. I understand that. What I'm attempting to determine is how you
12 know whether -- if you don't know what they fired at, then how do you
13 know if they're doing what they were told to do or doing something else?
14 A. I base my statement on the fact that it was a disciplined army.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, could we further explore the witness
17 exactly meant when he said, page 35, line 18: "I have the documents at
18 my disposal, and I coordinate my work with chiefs of artillery."
19 Witness, what documents were you referring to, and what kind of
20 coordination you meant there?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was the
22 procedure: I was referring to the database of all the targets selected,
23 based on the information gathering concerning the lie of the land and the
24 general area. I apologise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
2 So once such a database is produced for the entire area, every
3 intelligence officer of the brigade works out, together with his chief of
4 artillery, the possible firing positions within their area of
6 In this way, a precise selection is made and firing tables or
7 documents produced for the detected positions or targets. That's the
8 sort of the documentation I had in mind.
9 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
11 MR. MISETIC: I believe we should check page 37, line 6.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do that.
13 MR. MISETIC: With respect to the last three words, I believe the
14 reference was to a different document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 You said: "In this way, a precise selection is made," and you
17 said then what was produced.
18 You said something that was produced for the detected positions
19 or targets. What was produced? It's -- Mr. Misetic thinks it might be
20 mistranslated, so if you would please repeat that portion of your answer.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the drafting of
22 a final document, containing a list of targets for every area of
23 responsibility of the unit facing the enemy.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No firing tables were prepared at that stage?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 So you have a full set now of a -- as you said, a -- a database
3 with targets, and then targets would be selected at the brigade level.
4 Were you then informed about what targets had been selected?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had information from the chief of
6 artillery, or chiefs of artillery, of the brigades, and I saw that sort
7 of document containing a selection of targets up to the level of the
8 possible engagement of brigade artillery.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And I think then what Mr. Russo tried to learn is
10 whether there were any such targets in - we're talking about Obrovac -
11 that you were aware of, you learned about through this selection
12 procedure and follow-up information to you. Any other target than the
13 one you indicated on the map, which was the bridge?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I haven't seen this
15 in 15 years, so I can only rely on my memory.
16 In principle, in planning, you mark the targets, if I can mark it
17 here, along the communications lines leading out of Benkovac [as
18 interpreted], and I remember this cross-roads here. But I repeat, I'm
19 now speaking from memory. I cannot assert this with any degree of
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you at least put a 2 next to the circle you
22 just marked on the map.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Page 38, line 17, again, Benkovac is mentioned
1 and not Obrovac.
2 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President did you intend --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's --
4 You refer to this cross-roads near to Obrovac? On our
5 transcript, it appears as Benkovac, but that's apparently a mistake.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot influence that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. He circled several things and a
9 2 next to one. Are we talking about 2 for all of those, for the
10 Chamber's purposes?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I missed one, as a matter of fact.
12 You circled the bridge. You added a 1 to that. There was a
13 cross-roads south of Obrovac where you did put a 2.
14 Now you also circled something which appears in red as quite
15 close to the river, a little bit west from the centre of Obrovac, where
16 we see in red 6A. Could you tell us what was that, not a cross-roads,
17 but a road leading out of Obrovac? Is that why you marked it?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a road leading out of
19 Obrovac, westward and along the river.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... [Overlapping
21 speakers] ...
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the eastern -- the eastern
23 road runs along the river too.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you have marked that. So what you did,
25 you marked the exit road north of the river, eastbound and westbound, and
1 a cross-roads just south of Obrovac as the targets that are still in your
2 memory, targets brigade level.
3 Now you add immediately another marking, which is also an exit
4 road south of the town of Obrovac
5 It's now marked five times. I think we can stop marking at this
6 moment, Mr. Rajcic, and if we --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. It was
10 all in good intentions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You have visualized that exit roads that were in
12 your memory as a planned targets.
13 Mr. Russo, if you tender it very quickly into evidence, then you
14 avoid further marking.
15 MR. RUSSO: Unfortunately, Mr. President, I --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, of course, please proceed.
17 MR. RUSSO: The witness indicated at page 38, line 14, he says:
18 "I'm not sure. I haven't seen this in 15 years, so I can only
19 rely on my memory. In principle, in planning you mark the targets. If
20 can I mark it here." And then he indicates these -- I was under the
21 impression that the witness was marking what he thought, in principle,
22 would be selected.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I understood this to be what he would expect to be
24 and what is not contradicted by his memory.
25 Is that ...
1 MR. RUSSO: On that basis, Your Honour, I will offer this into
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Same objection, Mr. --
5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the objection is denied.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please assign a number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit P2328.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P2328, map of Obrovac marked by the witness, is
10 admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I realize it is time for a break. I
13 would just ask for one thing over the break. The witness has now been
14 provided with copies of his documents.
15 In particular, I'd like to ask the Court ask him to review the
16 Official Note without discussing it further, so we can get from him what
17 it is in there he either agrees with or disagrees with.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The suggestion is that we give some homework to the
20 I hear of no objections.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No break?
22 MR. KEHOE: [Previous translation continues] ... once again, and
23 if the witness could take his headphones off.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take your headphones off for a
25 second, Mr. Rajcic.
1 Yes, he has to stay here because --
2 MR. KEHOE: I'm not quite sure what counsel has gotten in mind,
3 if there was some type of adoption procedure in mind. But, again, this
4 was a document that was made for the purposes of this proceeding. It is
5 it not his statement, and in no fashion should it be this -- this
6 methodology be a use for him to adopt the statement, certainly when going
7 through an exercise of asking questions, if that is it where counsel is
8 going, we object.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
10 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm not going to reargue the issue about
11 the Official Notes. This is an Official Note. You know our position
12 about which proceeding it was taken for. It purports to be a summary of
13 the witness's statement. I don't think there is a problem with asking
14 the witness to look at it and to agree or disagree with whatever portions
15 are in there that he may have said or not said, during his interview.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajcic. Mr. Rajcic, you will be provided with
18 an Official Note in your own language -- well, I don't have to explain to
19 you, I take it, what an Official Note purports to be. That is, that's a
20 summary of a statement.
21 Now, what the Chamber would like you to do and what Mr. Russo
22 invited us to ask you, is that you read through it during the next break
23 - we will not deprive you from your coffee but some of your time - and
24 then identify portions where you disagree. That means that you deny that
25 this reflects what you said during that interview and other portions
1 where you said, Well, this reflects what I said, even though not in your
2 own precise words, but the gist of what you said is reflected accurately
3 in the Official Note.
4 Would you be willing to do that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm willing to do that.
6 Coffee is good, and that will make up for everything.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will have a break, and we will resume at
8 five minutes past 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajcic, thank you for giving up some of your
13 Mr. Russo, you may proceed.
14 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could briefly move
15 into private session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 16336-16359 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, briefly two matters.
13 First of all, in view of the timing, the Chamber will explore
14 possibilities to find additional time in court so as not to -- and will,
15 as always, consult with the parties and look in everyone's agenda to see
16 whether we can find some additional time in court.
17 Second, Mr. Kuzmanovic, you, I think it was you who drew our
18 attention to videolink with counsel present at the other side.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I looked at that, and I'm
20 probably mistaken. I -- it was -- registry I was thinking of and not --
21 I looked, myself, at all the transcripts for the protected witnesses, and
22 I was going to let the Court know that before the end of the day. I was
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are always a bit hesitant, and so if we do
25 not know something that it isn't there because it could well be, but it
1 seems that our findings are concurrent in this respect.
2 Mr. Russo, please proceed.
3 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 If we could please have 65 ter 4866.
5 Mr. President, I don't know if we're still in private session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. I should have put this on the record. We ended
7 last -- the last portion of the hearing, we ended in private session, and
8 upon on my instruction, Mr. Registrar made the start of this -- part of
9 the session in open session, as you can see on the transcript. It was
10 done upon my instructions and, therefore, the approval is there. But
11 it's good that the parties know where we are.
12 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 65 ter 4866. And if we could enlarge the section of the town of
14 Gracac proper. Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Rajcic, I'm going to ask you to engage in the same exercise
16 here and ask to you please identify, if you can, the targets which, to
17 your knowledge were actually fired at by Croatian forces on the 4th and
18 5th of August?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the same exercise? Actually fired at, was
20 the exercise on the previous maps?
21 MR. RUSSO: It was the exercise in terms of Benkovac. In terms
22 of Obrovac, I believe the witness indicated to us he didn't recall which
23 ones were actually fired at, and then we defaulted to the planning.
24 MR. KEHOE: I take issue.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That is not my recollection as a matter of fact.
1 MR. KEHOE: Not mine either.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear that you're now asking this for Gracac.
3 But it's not my recollection that the same question was put, and if I am
4 wrong, Mr. Russo, please --
5 MR. RUSSO: I will have a look at that, Your Honour. In that
6 case --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I will also have a look at it, and to the extent I
8 can assist you, I will do so. But it's clear now that for Gracac, you're
9 asking to indicate targets that were fired at ...
10 MR. RUSSO: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: In Operation Storm.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. RUSSO:
14 Q. Mr. Rajcic, if you would not mind please indicating to us first
15 the target of highest value that was fired upon by Croatian forces in
16 Gracac on the 4th of August.
17 A. I can't show it you here, because this was the operations axis of
18 the special MUP unit under the command of General Mladen Markac.
19 Q. Are you unaware of anything that was fired at in Gracac?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the answer.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not aware of the
23 targets fired at in Gracac.
24 MR. RUSSO:
25 Q. Did the artillery group TS-5 fire at any targets in Gracac?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. You drew the plans for artillery for the corps artillery;
4 A. I made the plan of use, but I did not have an overseeing role in
5 its execution.
6 Q. Did your plan include TS-5 firing on any targets in Gracac?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And can you tell us why you don't know whether that plan was
10 A. Because I received an order from General Gotovina on the 3rd of
11 August at 9.45 in Zadar, in the presence of General Markac, his Chief of
12 Staff, I believe, and chief of artillery. General Gotovina issued the
13 order to me -- issued the order to me verbally and told me that I should
14 detach elements of artillery from Artillery Group 5 for operational
15 purposes of the forces of the MUP special unit under the command of
16 General Markac.
17 Q. I understand that the order to be -- that you detach certain
18 elements of Artillery Group 5 for operational purposes of the MUP, did
19 that leave TS-5 with no artillery? Or did TS-5, after that detachment,
20 still have artillery which it could use, according to your plan?
21 A. It was left without that part of artillery.
22 Q. And with the artillery that was left to it, the artillery which
23 remained with TS-5, is there a reason why that artillery did not carry
24 out your plan to fire on targets in Gracac?
25 A. The reason was that Gracac was not within their range, as well as
1 Benkovac -- or, rather, sorry, Obrovac.
2 Q. Now, I just want to be clear about what you're telling us before
3 I ask you to mark anything on the map.
4 You -- you are not aware of anything that was fired at in Gracac
5 by either the corps artillery, brigade artillery, or MUP special police
6 units; is that correct? You do don't have any idea what anybody fired at
7 in Gracac?
8 A. No, no. No.
9 Q. No, you don't agree with what I'm saying; or, no, you are not
10 aware of any of that?
11 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know anything about it.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, prepares we try to clarify the earlier
14 issue that ...
15 In relation to Benkovac you asked, What were the targets fired
16 at? The witness marked them on the map. Then you asked him whether any
17 other targets were fired at, to his knowledge.
18 Then we moved to Obrovac. There you started putting the same
19 question to you. When the witness said he didn't know, then we continued
20 with targets, not necessarily fired upon, but then he pointed to the
21 bridge and to the exit roads, et cetera. So the second exercise
22 developed in a bit different way as the first exercise developed. And I
23 think for Gracac everything now is clear from the answers.
24 Does this sufficiently clarify the issue, Mr. Kehoe.
25 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
2 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.
5 Q. Given, Mr. Rajcic, that you can't give us any information about
6 what was actually fired at, I would like to discuss the plans which you
7 had drawn, the targets which you had selected in Gracac to be fired at.
8 Could you please indicate to us those targets, only inside the town of
9 Gracac proper, that you had planned for TS-5 to fire artillery at?
10 A. I will not be 100 percent precise. Generally speaking, the
11 following were planned. Cross-roads, for 130-millimetre cannons.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you mark them on the map, because we have a
13 lot of cross-roads.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
15 MR. RUSSO:
16 Q. Thank you for that, Mr. Rajcic.
17 In addition to the cross-roads that you've indicated, and I
18 understand that this is not something that you can testify to with
19 100 percent accuracy, nevertheless, were there any other targets in
20 Gracac that you believed were of sufficient military value to have
21 targeted for artillery fire?
22 A. In the town of Gracac
23 could have been taken into consideration for firing with a view to
24 possibly gaining military advantage.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, at this time I would move for
2 admission of this exhibit.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Same objection, I take it Mr. --
4 The objection is overruled.
5 Mr. Registrar, could you please assign a number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P2329.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P2329, map of Gracac marked by the witness, is
8 admitted into evidence.
9 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 If we could now please have 65 ter 7055.
11 Q. Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise this as the first reconstruction
12 that you put together in connection with your work for the Republic of
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. I'd like to take you through just a few sections of
16 this analysis, or this reconstruction.
17 MR. RUSSO: Let's move first to page 3, section 1.
18 Q. And this is the second tab of your binder, Mr. Rajcic. Page 3,
19 section 1 in English, and it is the same in the B/C/S.
20 Now, in this section, Mr. Rajcic, you list the artillery which
21 was available to the Split Military District before Kozjak 95, and
22 specifically, you referred to the brigade artillery at section 1.2. And
23 there you list the 4th Guards Brigade. There's an entry for the SVLR,
24 the self-propelled multiple rocket launcher. And it indicates that it is
25 a 128-millimetre MB 21. Is that correct?
1 A. 122 is what it should read.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. RUSSO: If we could move to page 5, section 2, and that is
4 also the same in the B/C/S.
5 Q. And here you discuss the organisation of the artillery,
6 specifically in section 2.1.1. You indicate that the corps artillery,
7 that is, the artillery and artillery rocket groups, TRS-1, TRS-2, TS-3,
8 TS-4, and TS-5 "were under the direct command of the commander of the
9 Military District, Croatian forces."
10 Can you tell the Trial Chamber to whom you were referring in that
11 quoted portion.
12 A. To all the elements of the artillery rocket groups and artillery
13 groups, without the element that was detached for General Markac.
14 Q. And those artillery groups and artillery rocket groups were under
15 the command of General Gotovina?
16 A. Yes. 1, 2, 3, 4, minus 5.
17 Q. Now, at section 3.1 which is just towards the bottom of the page.
18 MR. RUSSO: And if we could move to the next page in the English
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, you read TS-5 earlier, where the document
21 reads TRS-five.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. RUSSO: Yes. That was, actually, my next question coming up,
24 Your Honour.
25 Q. In section 3.1, you discuss the structure and combat deployment
1 of the corps artillery, and I was going to ask to you look specifically
2 at TRS-5 which appears, I believe, it is on page 7. If we go to the next
3 page in the English version also over on the B/C/S, it lists TRS-5.
4 However, you indicated a bit further down that several pieces of the
5 artillery of TRS-5 were detached and sent to MUP special forces including
6 the 122-millimetre self-propelled rocket launcher. Is that correct?
7 A. Give me a moment, please.
8 Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Would then the decision of TRS change to TS, since the rocket
10 system was removed from that group?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 Now, at the beginning of section 4 - and this is on page 7 in the
14 English, and page 6 in the B/C/S - you discuss -- actually, I'd like to
15 move to 4.2.1, which is the following page.
16 MR. RUSSO: If we move just a bit further down.
17 Q. Now, in section 4.2.1 you list what you refer to as "operational
18 level targets." For the corps artillery, that is, TS-3, TS-4, and TS-5
19 in the populated areas of Knin, Benkovac, and Gracac.
20 I would like it take you through now the targets in Knin and ask
21 you to identify those. And if you would, please, I'm going to pull up an
22 aerial photograph of Knin.
23 MR. RUSSO: That's Exhibit P62.
24 Q. And I'm going to be making reference, Mr. Rajcic, to your
25 reconstruction here in front of you, so if could you have that ready,
1 we'll take these targets one by one.
2 Now, Mr. Rajcic, given the size of this picture, what I'm going
3 to have you do is, we're going to enlarge sections of the town to a
4 sufficient size to allow to you identify particular targets, and then
5 we'll proceed in that fashion.
6 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please focus on the area
7 between the listings parliament and railroad station and bring up a very
8 large section of that. If it is possible to enlarge it a bit more. Just
9 a little bit more. And move it a little bit to the left. Yes, thank
11 Q. Now, Mr. Rajcic, the first target that you list in your
12 reconstruction is of the Main Staff of the so-called VRSK in Knin. I'd
13 like to you please circle that target on this map and place a number 1
14 next to it.
15 And if you need the map to be larger, just let us know, and we
16 can enlarge it further.
17 A. Yes, please.
18 The -- if it can be enlarged so that it shows all the relevant
19 parts for you, but I'd like to have it bigger, and it would be much
20 better to have the image in colour.
21 Q. I do agree with you there, Mr. Rajcic. Unfortunately, we don't
22 have a coloured version, but we can certainly make this bigger for you.
23 MR. RUSSO: If we could have it enlarged a few levels more.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That will make it that much more
25 difficult for me.
1 MR. RUSSO:
2 Q. I understand, and when you indicate the targets, if there's a
3 particular problem in the location of a particular target, certainly let
4 me know.
5 MR. RUSSO: But, Mr. Registrar, if it is possible to go a little
6 bit larger and then move a little bit over to the right. Thank you.
7 Q. Now, on this, can you please mark -- circle the location of the
8 Main Staff of the so-called VRSK in Knin.
9 A. Yes, I can. I can recognise the location. I had a desk there
10 for a while myself. Complete with the former JNA hall.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. Should I mark with 1 or ...
13 Q. Yes, please.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you. Now, the next target that you list is the
16 headquarters of the Ministry of Defence of the so-called RSK in Knin.
17 Can you please circle that target on this map and place a number 2 next
18 to it.
19 A. I would have to have the coordinates here. But I do believe that
20 it was the same building. I found that in the office where I had my desk
21 as the chief of artillery, there used to be the office of an official of
22 the Ministry of Defence of the RSK.
23 Q. Thank you. In that case, can you also place a 2 underneath -- or
24 right next to where you had the 1.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you. And the third target you list is the communication
2 centre of the so-called VRSK in Knin, and I'd like to you please circle
3 that target and place a number 3 next to it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, just for the record the two adjacent
5 rectangles were marked in the beginning, so to cover 1, and then 2 to be
6 included, and the two not separate.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Rajcic, if could you please circle the communication centre
10 which you were referring to.
11 A. As for the communication centre, I think it was housed in the
12 main post office, which housed the communication system of the entire
13 general area.
14 I will try to pinpoint the exact location as far as I can, though
15 a margin of error is possible.
16 Q. Thank you thank you very much for that.
17 And the fourth target you list is --
18 JUDGE ORIE: The witness added a 3 to that marking.
19 MR. RUSSO: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. The fourth target that you list is barracks in the area of the
23 town of Knin. And I wasn't certain from reading that whether you were
24 referring to one barracks or more than one barracks. Perhaps you could
25 tell us that first, and then we can decide moving this photograph or not.
1 A. It's -- should I -- it says here "barracks" in plural. Barracks
2 in the general area of Knin and in other towns, there were the total of
3 17 military installations from Grahovo through to Velebit.
4 MR. RUSSO: Before we move on let me simply move this into
5 evidence. I'll offer this at this time, Your Honour.
6 MR. KEHOE: [Microphone not activated]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will become Exhibit P2330.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P2330 is admitted into evidence.
10 English is not my mother tongue, Mr. Russo. But I do understand
11 that barracks, although linguistically, is plural, nevertheless could
12 refer to one single construction even. So, therefore, the plural and the
13 singular, we should be very careful to ask about more barracks or one
14 barracks because one barracks is still the plural.
15 MR. RUSSO: That's what I'm attempting to discover,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- please proceed.
18 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.
19 Q. In terms of the target that you indicated here in your
20 reconstruction, which barracks in Knin are you referring to? And if
21 you're referring to more than one, tell us which ones.
22 A. The first and most important is the Slavko Rodic barracks.
23 Q. Thank you. And if we could please Exhibit P62 brought up again,
24 we'll have that area enlarged for you.
25 MR. RUSSO: If we move it all the way over to the left, I believe
1 it will ... and a bit up. Actually, if we could zoom out. Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Rajcic, if you could simply circle the area of the barracks,
3 the Slavko Rodic barracks, and mark it with the number 4.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Now, before we move on -- well, we will move on.
7 MR. RUSSO: If we can have this marked and admitted,
8 Mr. President.
9 MR. KEHOE: No objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2331, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P2331 is admitted into evidence.
13 Mr. Russo, if you would have asked the witness whether the
14 portion marked and mentioned and referred to as Knin army barracks would,
15 be the barracks he meant, we would have been far more efficient. Saves
16 an exhibit. Northern barracks is -- that's apparently the only issue.
17 Let's not waste more time on it.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could have again P62
20 brought up.
21 Q. And the next target you list, Mr. Rajcic, is the railway station
22 in Knin.
23 MR. RUSSO: If we could move the photograph over to the right and
24 a bit down.
25 Q. If could you please circle that target and place the number 5
1 next to it. Oh, my apologies. I believe the next target you in fact
2 listed was the police station in Knin.
3 MR. RUSSO: If we could move the photograph over to the left. A
4 bit more.
5 Q. Now if you could identify for us the location of that target and
6 place a 5 next to it.
7 A. To the extent I can find my way here, this is where the police
8 station was. I'll put a 5 next to it.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. RUSSO: If we could have this now marked and admitted. I'm
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I did this with the
13 reservation that I need the X and Y coordinates to mark this. But we can
15 MR. RUSSO: Yes. That's understood, Mr. Rajcic. Thank you.
16 Mr. President --
17 JUDGE ORIE: You tender it into evidence. No objections.
18 Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P2332, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 If we could, once again, have P62 and focus on the area of the
24 railway station. That's fine, thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Rajcic, if you could please circle for us the target which
1 you indicated as the railway station in Knin, and place a number 6 next
2 to it.
3 A. Talking about this target, and with regard to the photograph I
4 have in front of me, the target is too wide or too deep depending on how
5 you look at it. I need the X, Y, and Z coordinates again. But I will
6 identify the target roughly.
7 You want me to place the number 6 here?
8 Q. Yes, please.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And in connection with that, I would ask you whether your
11 designation of the railway station as a target was intended to include
12 just the main railway tracks, or the station itself, or both, or anything
14 A. The intention was to damage the tracks, to prevent trains from
15 going through.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. RUSSO: If we could have this marked and admitted,
18 Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P2333, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. RUSSO: Thank you. If we could have the full P62 now.
23 Q. The next target you list, Mr. Rajcic, is -- or are bridges in the
24 town of Knin which I take to be more than one bridge. However, I will
25 ask you to circle the bridges to which you refer.
1 MR. RUSSO: And if we could have the full photograph of P62.
2 Thank you.
3 Q. Are you able, Mr. Rajcic, to identify here for us the bridges to
4 which you refer in your reconstruction?
5 A. We would have to zoom in on the southern part, because I
6 recognise the barracks where UNPROFOR was, and it should be thereabouts.
7 Could you focus in on the castle area?
8 Q. If you need it further focussed, Mr. Rajcic, just let us know.
9 A. I can see one bridge but not the other.
10 Q. Then if you could simply mark the one bridge.
11 A. Number 7, right?
12 Q. I believe that's correct, yes.
13 A. [Marks]
14 MR. RUSSO: And, Mr. President, I will offer this into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P2334, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P2334 is admitted into evidence.
18 MR. RUSSO: And if we could have another fresh version of P62.
19 Q. And, Mr. Rajcic, if you could guide us as to where the next
20 bridge you believe is located.
21 A. The bridge across the Butiznica river is in the direction of
22 Gracac, where you go from Knin to Otric.
23 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could move the photograph all
24 the way to the left and focus the area below where it says "Knin army
25 barracks." Bring that down a bit. Thank you.
1 Q. Do you see the bring you are referring to in this photograph,
2 Mr. Rajcic?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is that where you see indicated Butiznica bridge -- Butiznica
5 river, I'm sorry, is that the river to which you're referring?
6 A. Yes. It says Butiznica river. We can follow the stream,
7 downstream, and in the area around this mark that says TO Madesevac, it
8 should be there somewhere. That is in the lower right corner.
9 Q. I see. So is it beyond the area which is photographed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Now the final target that you indicate are a
12 cross-roads in the town of Knin
13 those cross-roads are and circle those.
14 A. That cross-roads should be in Kninsko Polje, in the direction
15 towards Dinara. The cross-roads Strmica-Vrlika.
16 Q. If we could move to the top left corner of the photograph, I
17 believe at this magnification.
18 Can you guide us from here, Mr. Rajcic, as to where those
19 cross-roads are?
20 A. No, I can't. There are too many roads and cross-roads in these
21 outskirts of Knin, so I cannot identify it fast.
22 Q. Are you able to tell us if the cross-roads your referring to is
23 somewhere between the area of the hospital and downtown Knin, or if it's
24 somewhere west or north-west -- or north of the hospital area?
25 A. I think it should be in the north-east of that area, toward
1 Vrlika. It is outside Knin proper. However I don't know whether from an
2 administrative point of view that is also considered part of the town of
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could move the photograph down
6 --I'm sorry, not -- right. If we could put it back where it was. And if
7 you could move it slowly downwards.
8 Q. And, Mr. Rajcic, if you could tell me if it is located -- what
9 you consider to be this area of cross-roads, is it anywhere on this
10 photograph or is simply outside the area of this photograph?
11 MR. RUSSO: If we could move it up just a bit more.
12 A. This -- or, rather, that cross-roads is not in the area shown.
13 MR. RUSSO:
14 Q. Thank you. Now, the targets that you've identified in that
15 section and that you have circled for us here on these various maps, were
16 those targets which were actually fired upon during Operation Storm?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And can you tell us whether, in addition to those targets that
19 you've identified, there were any other areas or locations inside the
20 town of Knin proper that were actually fired at on the 4th or 5th of
21 August by Croatian forces?
22 A. They fired at the cross-roads beyond the barracks, the northern
23 camp or Slavko Rodic. Should I mark it or -- whenever I mark, it's done
24 with the caveat that I need the X, Y, and Z coordinates.
25 It could be this cross-roads near the barracks or this one. It's
1 hard for me to say, based on this black and white photograph with all
2 this greenery here. So it is either one or the other.
3 Q. Thank you. And I would simply ask you to write the letter C, or
4 simply just write the word "cross-roads" on there. If that is possible
5 to do. If you can just write "cross-roads" somewhere between those two.
6 A. This is the KV hospital in the table of targets and not the
8 Q. I'm sorry, before you mark anything else, I want to make sure I
9 understand what you're indicating to us.
10 When you say the KV hospital in the table of targets and not the
11 cross-roads, the two circles that you just drew, those were areas where
12 -- or one or the other of those was actually fired at by Croatian forces
13 on the 4th or 5th of August.
14 Am I correct about that?
15 A. Mr. Russo, I'm not talking about areas, because if we say areas
16 we're speaking about two targets or two instances of firing. I'm --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have lost part of the answer.
18 If the witness could be asked to repeat.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you put the question again to the witness,
20 Mr. Russo. Perhaps take it one by one. We see two markings, one more to
21 the north-east, which is a larger circle. Perhaps you start with that
23 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Mr. President.
24 Q. Mr. Rajcic, the circle that you placed near the cross-roads more
25 to the north-east in this photograph, can you tell us what that was meant
1 to represent, and whether you can say if that area was fired at on the
2 4th or 5th of August?
3 A. Your question, as far as I remember, and do correct me if I'm
4 wrong, was: Which other targets were fired upon in Knin, apart from the
5 ones marked so far?
6 Q. That is correct.
7 A. To that question, when you showed me this slide, I replied that
8 we fired on a target in the immediately vicinity of the Slavko Rodic
9 barracks, or the northern camp, but take into consideration the quality
10 of this photograph and the surface area of the town, I need the exact
11 coordinates, X, Y, and Z, to determine the exact location.
12 So, therefore, I cannot say whether the cross-roads in question
13 is this one that is closer to the barracks, or the other in the -- in a
14 north-west direction from that part. And that's why I drew these two
15 circles, conditionally.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, I'm looking at the clock. We have to
17 finish for the day. Usually ask whether it's a suitable moment, but it
18 is the moment.
19 MR. RUSSO: If I could simply tender this, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No objections.
21 MR. KEHOE: No objection.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2336.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P2336 is admitted into evidence.
25 Could I have an update on your timing, Mr. Russo.
1 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Mr. President, I just wanted to tender the
2 reconstruction that we have been going off of as well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. KEHOE: Sorry --
5 JUDGE ORIE: The document prepared.
6 MR. KEHOE: Yes. That's -- I believe it was on the 65 ter list.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No objections. None of the other Defence
9 Mr. Registrar, that would be number?
10 The reconstruction is the -- perhaps you repeat, Mr. --
11 MR. RUSSO: Yes, that's 65 ter 7055.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2337.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P2337 is admitted into evidence.
14 Mr. Russo, and update, and we can't loose much more time.
15 MR. RUSSO: I believe I will need least all of tomorrow,
16 Your Honour, and possibly another session or two after that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's far more than you indicated.
18 MR. RUSSO: I do understand that, Mr. President, and I apologise,
19 and I beg the court's indulgence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will consider the matter, but, first of
21 all, Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Misetic for the Gotovina Defence.
22 MR. KEHOE: I'm not certain at that point, Mr. President. Given
23 the 92 ter statement, it could be quite brief.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are a champion in giving answers, which I
25 do not give many.
1 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ... I wouldn't say that it is
2 much more than, say, 45 minutes at this juncture.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I see that, but brief could be anything between one
4 and ten hours in my experience.
5 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but now it is clear it me.
7 Ms. Higgins.
8 MS. HIGGINS: At present, no questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, as it stands for now, I will have
11 maybe one session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: One session, approximately. That is clear.
13 The Chamber will, as I said, explore whether we could find
14 additional time. Unfortunately, we're unable to continue tomorrow in the
15 afternoon, that's for sure, because of agenda problems. We'll consult
16 with the parties. We ...
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 THE REGISTRAR: I'd like to make a correction to the record. I
19 inadvertently skipped an exhibit number. The map marked by the witness
20 should have been Exhibit P2335, which would make 65 ter number 7055
21 Exhibit P2336.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And a reference to map marked by the witness
23 might lead to some confusion today. Therefore, it was the last map we've
24 seen with the two small circles marked on this map.
25 We adjourn for the day, but not, Mr. Rajcic, until after I have
1 instructed you, as I did yesterday, not to speak with anyone about your
2 testimony, whether given already, or still to be given, and we'd like to
3 see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00 in this same courtroom, I.
4 We adjourn until then.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of
7 February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.