Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17634

 1                           Monday, 25 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             It has been a while since we were in court.  We're here today.

 7     But let my first ask Madam Registrar to call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before the Defence cases start, we have given an opportunity to

12     the Prosecution to recall Mr. Rajcic.  Is there anything that keeps us

13     off from starting?

14             Not.

15             Then, Mr. Russo, are you ready to recall Mr. Rajcic.

16             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Rajcic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, thank you for coming back a long way

22     to The Hague.

23             We'll -- the Prosecution has asked to put further questions to

24     you.  Before we do so, I'd like you to make a solemn declaration, the

25     same solemn declaration you made when you appeared for the first time

Page 17635

 1     before us.  The text has been handed out.  Could you please make that

 2     solemn declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Rajcic.  Please be seated.

 6             You'll be further examined by Mr. Russo.

 7             Mr. Russo, you may proceed.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           WITNESS:  MARKO RAJCIC [Re-called]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                           Examination by Mr. Russo: [Continued]

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Rajcic.  Nice to --

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... let me begin by asking you

15     if you are aware of what you will be testifying about here today?

16        A.   In principle, yes and no.

17        Q.   Maybe you could clarify for me a little bit, "in principle."

18     What do you mean?

19        A.   On the 4th of March, a representative of the OTP phoned me and

20     told me that I was supposed to reappear before the Tribunal.  He told me

21     that there were certain documents which I should have a look at again and

22     provide an explanation thereof.

23             On the same evening, on the Croatian TV, in a news report, I

24     heard the same thing again, that the OTP had requested that I return

25     here, in order to clear up or explain certain documents.  That's why I

Page 17636

 1     said that, in principle, generally speaking, I know what this is about,

 2     although I don't know which documents are involved.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that explanation.

 4             Mr. Rajcic, have you seen any HV artillery documents since the

 5     time that you testified here before?

 6        A.   No, I haven't.  I haven't dealt with those matters.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to show you --

 8             MR. RUSSO:  If we could, please, Madam Registrar, have

 9     Exhibit D1447.  And if I could have the assistance of the usher, I do

10     have a hard copy for the witness, with the Court's permission.  Thank

11     you.

12        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise this document?

13        A.   This document tells me that it's a document containing a great

14     deal of information, at a first glance, which formed part of the

15     intelligence assessment of the -- of a battlefield.  I'm reading the text

16     on page 1 where it says "type of target"; then I can see that there are

17     command posts of various levels, from, let's say, a company from numbers

18     44 to 50, an infantry trench -- or an infantry squad.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are target coordinates there

21     as well, which is only customary.  I can also see that the place of

22     target contains a toponym or a place name.

23             Another thing which I observe and which a customary form of such

24     a list of targets as this one, as it says in the headline, is the -- the

25     membership of a unit, whether it is part of the establishment of the

Page 17637

 1     Split Military District, and that's where the information came from, and

 2     was received by the intelligence department of the Split Military

 3     District.

 4        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, have you ever seen this particular document before?

 5        A.   I saw this format when I was in Zadar, where the forward command

 6     post of the Split Military District was located, in the intelligence

 7     department there.

 8             This was a way of producing a, let's say, database of

 9     intelligence assessments of the theatre of war.  One such list would

10     serve to define targets that should be used by units --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, are you interested in describing on how

12     this fits into the whole system, or are you interested in hearing from

13     the witness, as you asked him twice, whether he has seen this particular

14     document before.

15             MR. RUSSO:  Well, I'm actually interested in both pieces of

16     information.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's proceed.  It wasn't clear from

18     your question to me.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. RUSSO:

21        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, I understand that from your answer, and correct me if

22     I'm wrong, that you recognise the format of this document; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And can you say whether or not you have seen this exact document

25     before?

Page 17638

 1        A.   This particular one, I didn't.  It says in the headline, list of

 2     targets of the Artillery Group of the 3 OG Zadar.  In my view, it must

 3     have been created as a matter of urgency because they were short of time.

 4     In my view, it must have been made shortly before the start of the

 5     operation, because such a document should not carry the headline such as

 6     this one, list of targets, et cetera.

 7        Q.   If you look to the bottom of each page, Mr. Rajcic, will you see

 8     the date as 30 July 1995.

 9        A.   Yes, you're right.  Zadar, the 30th.

10        Q.   Do you have any idea, Mr. Rajcic, who drafted this particular

11     document?

12        A.   My assumption is that it was the intelligence department.

13        Q.   And are you able to say whether this particular document was in

14     fact used during Operation Storm?

15        A.   I can't state this with any certainty.

16        Q.   Can you tell the Court what artillery group actually -- or the

17     designation of the artillery group which actually operated in OG Zadar

18     during Operation Storm?

19        A.   If the document was used, judging by the place names or targets

20     listed here, this was the area of Artillery Group 5, pursuant to the

21     document enclosed to the main order for artillery for the -- for

22     Operation Storm.

23        Q.   And if you could look at the items in the list and if you could

24     tell us, if you know, which targets from this list, TS-5 actually fired

25     at during Operation Storm?

Page 17639

 1        A.   Last time, I said in respect of Artillery Group --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  If I have as a clarification on that are we talking

 3     about the -- at the strategic, operational or tactical level, because

 4     TS-5 was firing at different targets at different times for different

 5     purposes.

 6             So just for some clarification coming from counsel, would be

 7     helpful, I think, for the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the question was phrased in a rather general

 9     way.

10             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm not making a distinction between the

11     different -- if he knows what it fired at for whatever reason, I'm less

12     interested in the reason than the target.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Could you please answer the question, Mr. Rajcic.

15             Perhaps you repeat it, Mr. Russo.

16             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.

17        Q.   Looking at the target list, Mr. Rajcic, if you are able to tell

18     us, if you know, which targets from this list Artillery Group 5 actually

19     fired at during Operation Storm?

20        A.   I can't answer the question.  I would have to have reports of

21     Artillery Group 5 on the activity of the group.  Last time I said I

22     didn't have it.  The only thing I said was that as part of artillery

23     preparation, TG-5 fired at the barracks in Benkovac, and that -- and I

24     said that was the extent of what I could say with certainty.

25             As for other targets that may have been fired at by TG-5, I have

Page 17640

 1     no knowledge of that.

 2        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, in your testimony previously, you indicated that you

 3     had reviewed source lists of targets in order to plan and select the

 4     targets to actually be fired upon during Operation Storm?

 5             Do you recall that testimony?

 6        A.   Yes.  I said that when target lists were developed for

 7     operational and strategic levels, the basis for the development of such

 8     lists was a database from where the capital targets were chosen for

 9     Artillery Groups 1 through 5.  I'm not saying this particular document.

10     I'm saying a document, such as this one, containing a great deal of

11     information would be used for the selection of targets for that level of

12     artillery.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And looking at this document, can you tell us how it

14     compares to the source lists which you actually reviewed?  Can you tell

15     us what the differences between these documents are, or what the

16     similarities are, to the source lists which you actually reviewed?

17             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I mean, counsel has got a

18     source list.  I mean, if there's going to be some comparison with this

19     document, I think it would behoove counsel to give the witness a source

20     list that it received from the Republic of Croatia.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness can't answer the question because he

22     hasn't got the information available, as he said before, then, of course,

23     we will hear from him, Mr. Kehoe.

24             Mr. Russo.

25             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.

Page 17641

 1        Q.   Let me repeat the question, Mr. Rajcic.  You've indicated that

 2     you reviewed source lists in order to select the targets for

 3     Operation Storm.  What I'd like you to do is explain to us what the

 4     differences are between the source lists that you reviewed and this

 5     document you see before you.  Any format differences or any other

 6     differences that you can note for us that would be of significance.

 7        A.   When reviewing documents for the purposes of the government of

 8     the Republic of Croatia, I had at my disposal and developed target lists.

 9     For Artillery Group 4, 3, was something that we could find and this we

10     couldn't find in respect of Artillery Group 5.  We've established what

11     the difference was between the targets chosen from a document such as

12     this one and this particular document.

13             One cannot discern any noticeable differences.  What comes to

14     mind when looking at this document, under 1 you have command post, or

15     forward command post of the 92nd Motorised Brigade, Benkovac.  Let's take

16     it as a specimen or as a sample.

17             When we select targets for the purposes of artillery and rocket

18     groups from a database such as this one, this would be a capital high

19     value target for Artillery Group 5 in Zadar.  When I was working with my

20     associates on this, using the same methodology we selected such high

21     value targets for all artillery rocket groups.  In other words, a type of

22     target, a location of target, X, Y, Z and dimension of target if known.

23        Q.   If we could move -- I'd like to look first, Mr. Rajcic, at some

24     of the anomalies in this document.  If can you look at the second page of

25     the document, and this would be page 7 of the English translation in

Page 17642

 1     e-court.  And --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, I don't know whether I fully understood.

 3     You said you would like to look at some of the?

 4             MR. RUSSO:  Anomalies.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Anomalies.  Is that already if you'd just look at

 6     the content of the document instead of qualifying them already, would

 7     that not be the appropriate way to do it.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Certainly, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

10             MR. RUSSO:

11        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, you can see, if you look, the target list here jumps

12     from target number 87, on the second page, to 273.  Can you explain why

13     there are numbers missing from this target list, if you know?

14        A.   Without having access to the entire database, and if this indeed

15     relates to the area of Zadar, I don't know where the areas of Sibenik,

16     Sinj and other areas of the front line are.  I wouldn't really dare to

17     venture giving an answer with any high certainty.

18        Q.   So I take it, then, that you don't know what the 186 missing

19     targets from this list are?

20        A.   No, unless I have other documents at my disposal as well.  This

21     document relates only to Zadar.  I referred to a database covering the

22     entire front line, from Mount Velebit, to Livno valley or, rather, Livno

23     itself.  It says "Operations Group Zadar."  We had four operations group

24     in all.  I would have to go through them all, leaf through them all,

25     and -- and then make a proper conclusion which would carry a degree of

Page 17643

 1     certainty.

 2        Q.   If you could please move to page 8 of your document, Mr. Rajcic.

 3             MR. RUSSO:  And if we could move to page 27 in the English

 4     version.

 5        Q.   You will note there, Mr. Rajcic, in the column for the source of

 6     information it indicates ZP for Military District and then it says "old

 7     one" in parentheses.

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you explain what that means, which old Military District is

11     being referred to there?

12        A.   I don't think that this relates to the old Military District.  My

13     view is that Military District in brackets "old" may refer to the fact

14     that it was an old piece of information, because there was a constant

15     flow of information in that area.  I would conclude that this is an old

16     piece of information which has been around for a while.  That's what I

17     would conclude by judging the document.

18        Q.   And can you offer an explanation, if you know, why, as of the

19     30th of July, 1995, this -- the information on these targets had not been

20     updated?

21        A.   I can tell you on the basis of what I know on the basis of my

22     participation in the activities in the area, target 681 comes to mind.

23     It says the other targets, Pijevcevo Brdo, target coordinates, firing

24     position ZP Stari.

25             In 1994, I took part in the development of a combat action which

Page 17644

 1     was supposed to take part in this area and there were firing positions

 2     there.  You have type of target, P/ -- P, which stands for firing

 3     position.  My guess is that this piece of information was left in the

 4     database as it was and it may have so happened that the firing position

 5     was captured by the enemy.  That's why it remained as such in the

 6     database.

 7        Q.   Moving back to page 2 in your original document, and that's

 8     page 7, I believe, in the English translation, will you notice that --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

10             MR. MISETIC:  I think there's something maybe that needs to be

11     clarified in light of the English translation of what the witness's

12     actual answer was.  This is page 10, lines --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's page 10, lines?

14             MR. MISETIC:  -- 24 going into page 11, line 1.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'll just read it to the witness.

16             Mr. Rajcic, if you would be -- listen carefully and see what I

17     now read to you is what you said.

18             "My guess is that this piece of information was left in the

19     database as it was and it may have happened that the firing position was

20     captured by the enemy.  That's why it remained as such in the database."

21             That's the whole portion, Mr. Misetic?

22             Is this what your answer was to the -- or at least that part of

23     the answer was, or is there any inaccuracy in it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not quite.  Not my entire

25     answer was interpreted.

Page 17645

 1             In other words, the firing position, Pijevcevo Brdo was captured

 2     for a while while I was a commander of the combat activities in that

 3     area.  The firing position was -- or had been captured there and then

 4     later on that firing position was deserted.  It had been left behind as a

 5     potential firing position that the enemy might capture again, and as

 6     such, with coordinates X and Y, it would remain within the database and

 7     it did remain in the database, and now let me just expand on that a bit.

 8     If need be, then we would already have preparations for the firing

 9     position and we wouldn't have to carry them out all over again.  And that

10     is why it had been left behind in this database as an old firing

11     position.

12             MR. RUSSO:

13        Q.   Referring back to page 2 of the document, Mr. Rajcic, and again

14     this is page 7 in the English translation, you will notice that beginning

15     from target number 273 going all the way to target number 661, no

16     information appears for the Z coordinate of the target.

17             Can you explain why there would be no information for the

18     Z coordinate for any of those targets?

19        A.   Well, I can only assume.  One of the explanations could be that

20     the source for this information considered that this was my biased

21     opinion, my own opinion, and that it was not necessary to enter that in

22     there, because in our security -- or, rather, intelligence department we

23     had artillery information based on which we could easily determine the

24     elevation of the target, if we had the X and Y coordinates.  And it is my

25     assumption that for this reason, the source that -- where it says source,

Page 17646

 1     the 34th Home Guard Regiment and the company of the 3rd Infantry

 2     Battalion, left behind this box unfilled, the Z coordinate unfilled.

 3        Q.   Is the Z coordinate necessary --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, if counsel just correct one thing in the

 5     transcript.  I think it came out the 34th Home Guard Regiment and I

 6     believe that it is the 134th Home Guard Regiment, if I'm not mistaken,

 7     that he was just talking about.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, that's right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Because, here, in the

11     version that I have, that is missing, the -- the first couple of words --

12     the first couple of letters are missing.  The copy is not very clear.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So you said 34th but you meant 134th.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Kehoe, when he said that, it would have

16     been appropriate to explore whether he meant what he said instead of

17     presenting it as mistake in the transcript.

18             MR. KEHOE:  My apologies, Judge.  I thought it was a translation

19     issue, and my apologies and I stand corrected.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, is the Z coordinate necessary for accurate artillery

23     fire?

24        A.   Yes, it is necessary.

25        Q.   And can you explain to us how exactly one would go about, as you

Page 17647

 1     indicated, discovering the Z coordinate information when it was not

 2     provided by the source?

 3        A.   Well, this is an method.  What we did is, where we had a target,

 4     we would take the coordinates based on the topographical maps of various

 5     scales.  If it was 1:50.000, a scale of that range, then it was less

 6     precise and one could determine the elevation of Z in metres.  Whereas if

 7     the scale was 1:25.000 of this topographic map, then the precision would

 8     be higher, and once you marked the X and Y coordinates on the map based

 9     equidistances on the map we would work on determining the elevation of

10     the target.  If this would be between two isohypses -- or, rather, if

11     there was a equidistance between them, we would interpolate the target.

12     This would range from between 2 and a half to 5 metres, the precision

13     rate, depending on the scale of the topographic map.  If the map was

14     1:50.000, if that was the scale, the 50 metre difference would

15     determine -- would be the difference.  And wherefore if we had a scale of

16     1:25.000, then the precision would be up to 5 metres.

17             So any person who was dealing with and working with topographic

18     maps was trained and able to do that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, looking at this document, Mr. Rajcic, can you

20     tell us how it compares to an official HV document?  Are there any

21     markings that you would expect to find on an official document that

22     missing from this or anything like that?

23        A.   What official document of the Croatian army are you referring to?

24     Do you mean an official document at a certain level, or do you mean an

25     official document of artillery?  From artillery.

Page 17648

 1        Q.   Well, an official HV target list, for example, would that bear

 2     any markings which are missing from this document?

 3        A.   No.  An official document that we called a table of targets, of

 4     firing targets, the form would have been somewhat different.  This table

 5     would be a bit different, would look different, and the content would

 6     also differ.

 7             The number that appears in the first column is the same, and then

 8     the type of target, X, Y and Z, and the dimensions of the target.  The

 9     source would not be entered on a target list, nor would we enter this

10     heading "can be observed" or unit goal, and I am here referring to a

11     table of targets that was used by artillery units.

12        Q.   And in a table of targets which would actually be used during an

13     operation, would the targets bear code numbers and not simply numbers?

14        A.   Both could be possible.  The table of targets in itself would be

15     coded for reasons of confidentiality, at least before the -- an operation

16     begins.  And then the numbers could be serial.  They could be marked in

17     this manner or in some other way.  But in any case, it would depend on

18     the level of the unit, whether this was the lowest level tactical unit, a

19     platoon, battery, or division, and then, as you go up, you would -- you

20     would enter some additional information, such as the azimuth, the base

21     direction for firing, and such things.

22             A list of targets of this type that we have before us, I assume

23     that this was just an additional document that was used for the

24     Artillery Group 5 [Realtime transcript read in error "35"] and not 3, as

25     it says here, so that in the course of combat, at the request of the

Page 17649

 1     units to which the support was provided, one could act fast and have

 2     ready all the elements necessary for firing.

 3             I think I've went a bit beyond your question in my answer.

 4        Q.   That's fine.  I do appreciate the explanation.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, I have no further questions with

 6     respect to this particular document.  However, I do have another document

 7     to put to the witness.  I don't know if the Court wishes to address

 8     additional questions on this document before moving on to the next one.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have one question.  I noticed that in the

11     list the width and depth of the target is never specified, just an X.

12     Was that common and what is the -- let me first ask you whether this is

13     the ordinary way of describing the target dimensions.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for us artillery men,

15     it is normal to have -- it is -- to have a dimension of a target and this

16     is not common practice, so I don't know why these Xs are entered here,

17     and no dimensions of target were provided because it could have been

18     pretty well defined.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you further explain, what exactly means the

20     column "Number of targets in unit"?  What do you exactly understand by

21     that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the targets for a certain unit

23     should be entered here in the area or swath of responsibility where that

24     unit is engaged in combat operations to the left or right of the superior

25     commander.

Page 17650

 1             Within this area, there would be various types of targets, at

 2     various depths, tactically and operationally.  And here, there should be

 3     an indication of the number of units, for this let's call it X unit --

 4     number of targets.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or in this particular case, for

 7     instance, the 111th HV Brigade, it should also indicate the number of

 8     targets for that unit at the tactical and operational level.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I must admit that it is not yet entirely clear to

10     me.

11             So you say it's the total number of targets within the -- that

12     could be engaged by that unit?  And then you're talking about your units,

13     not enemy units.  Is that correctly understood?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I always mean the enemy

15     targets.  We don't have targets within our own units.  These units are on

16     the other side, at the enemy side.  These targets --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- are on the other side, the enemy

19     side, and we would obtain the depth and width of the target and for that

20     unit there would be a target assigned.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it is the number of targets that were

22     identified in relation to the enemy units.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And they are indicated as

24     such within the unit.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 17651

 1             Now, if I would take you, for example, to entry 491, and that is

 2     after a missing 30 numbers on the list, 491 and following.

 3             Have you found it?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  There -- 491 and following, they're all, as far as

 6     the enemy unit is concerned is the 92nd Motorised Brigade and the

 7     numbers, although not with a huge range, they're all different.  How do I

 8     have to understand?  I'm afraid that I'm still not fully ... I mean, it

 9     is 147, 128, 149, 159, and if these are targets identified in the enemy

10     unit, then what exactly explains the -- have you found it?  I see that

11     you're still ...

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, I am on

13     page 4.  And if I understood you correctly, I'm looking at number 491.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm looking at the last column, it looks as if

15     the enemy unit is the same in 491, 492, and that goes on until 499.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Although the numbers in the last column are not the

18     same and I may therefore have not fully understood what this entry is and

19     what explains the different numbers, although we are talking the same

20     enemy unit.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we look at 491 and

22     see that the command of the brigade is in Benkovac, that this is the

23     Slobodan Macura barracks, and that that -- the source of information is

24     the 7th Home Guards Regiment, and that this is within the area of

25     responsibility of the 7th Home Guards Regiment, and that on the other

Page 17652

 1     side we have the 92nd Motorised Brigade.

 2             In my view, 147 indicates the number of the artillery target for

 3     the 7th Home Guards Regiment.  Each unit had their own lists of targets,

 4     their tables of targets and their plan of fire, and they indicated those,

 5     the targets, with their own numbers and this was coordinated in

 6     coordination with their neighbour on the left and on the right flank, and

 7     this was done in order to avoid the overlapping of targets, which means

 8     that the same number could be used for two different targets; in this

 9     case there would be confusion.  But in this way, we have the

10     7th Home Guards Regiment designating this as their own target

11     designation, which is number 147, which does not necessarily mean that

12     this is the -- this would be the same designation, the same target for

13     the Artillery Group 5.

14             So the same number does not mean that they have the same

15     designation.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So number, therefore, is the number within

17     their lists.  I now -- I think I better understand.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that would be on the target

19     list of the 7th Home Guards Regiment of the Croatian army.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I may have been confused and perhaps that

21     could be -- an interpretation matter.  Number of targets, I expect that

22     to be a number, 10, 20, 50; whereas a number of a target on a list, then

23     I would expect, as a matter of fact, that the singular rather than the

24     plural.  But I'm desperately looking at the parties to assist me in

25     understanding what -- how you understood this.

Page 17653

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President, I mean, this can be checked but

 2     in the original it says number -- it's the singular, target, not

 3     targets --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  -- in the original.  And in the interpretation --

 6     in the translation it was translated in the plural.

 7             So it should be target number in the unit.  Or number of target

 8     in the unit, not targets in the unit.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if we find, therefore, I'm sorry,

10     Mr. Rajcic, to --

11             For example, numbers 504, 505, then it apparently is the

12     closeness, looking at the coordinates, which explains why they have the

13     same number.

14             Is that how I have to understand this --

15             MR. MISETIC:  Or the communications post is within the building

16     that's -- in other words, 505 could be located within 504.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, without any width or --

18             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry.  Yes, you're right.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The coordinates are not exactly the same --

20             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and if we do not know the width or the ...

22             Okay.  I'm just trying to understand what is ...

23             Mr. Rajcic, first of all, thank you for clarifying the issues and

24     the parties have further assisted me.  I was a bit misled perhaps by the

25     plural which --

Page 17654

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  There is one issue, just for the interpretation,

 4     and it's page 16, line 10.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  16, line 10.  Then I have to go back to the ...

 6             MR. MISETIC:  It's the --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just find it.  One second.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  It's the number in line 10.  I believe --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not there yet.  One second, please.  16, 10.

10             Yes, I've got it in front of me.

11             Yes, could we ... you said at a certain moment -- and please

12     complete what is may be missing or which is not incorrect.  I read part

13     of your answer.

14             And it was a question about code numbers.  At a certain moment

15     you said:

16             "A list of targets of this type that we have before us, I assume

17     that this was just an additional document that was used for the Artillery

18     Group 35 and not 3 as it says here.  So that in the course of combat, at

19     the request of the units to which the support was provided, one could act

20     fast and have ready all the elements necessary for firing."

21             Is there anything not accurate in a portion of the answer I just

22     read to you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood this properly, it

24     is not Artillery Group 35.  That is something that seems illogical here.

25     And if I said that, I apologise.  I said that the Artillery Group 3, the

Page 17655

 1     Operations Group Zadar, should have in fact been Artillery Group 5,

 2     because this was an auxiliary means for fast action.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That clarifies the issue.  And is also in line with

 4     my recollection.  Whether translation or transcribing issue, it has been

 5     corrected now.

 6             Let me just see whether I have any ...

 7             No, if I have any further questions I will keep them for a later

 8     stage.

 9             Mr. Russo.

10             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I could just ask that

11     we have revised translation uploaded to indicate the correct designation

12     for the final column which Your Honour questioned about.  I assume that

13     is not going to be a --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that it avoids further --

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.  If we could please have 65 ter 7160.  And

17     if I could have the assistance of the court usher, I also do have a hard

18     copy of that document for the witness.

19        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise this particular document?

20        A.   Yes.  I saw this document while I was selecting documents for the

21     purposes of the government of the Republic of Croatia.

22        Q.   Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber what this document

23     is.

24        A.   This is a war diary or a war log-book of the commander of a -- an

25     artillery group.  It sets out the dynamics of actions as they played out

Page 17656

 1     in his particular unit.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us which artillery group this relates to?

 3        A.   Artillery Group 4.

 4        Q.   If you could look at page 2 of the document, and that's the same

 5     in the English version in e-court, at the entry for 1100 hours, and it

 6     lists you as the individual reporting.  And it indicates the turning of

 7     two 130-millimetre guns.

 8             Do you recall reporting or ordering the turning of those guns

 9     for TS-4?

10             Sorry, Mr. Rajcic, we need a verbal answer.

11        A.   Yes, yes.  I remember that very well.

12        Q.   And if you could move along to page 6 in the document.  That's

13     also the same page in the English version.  Page 6 at the entry for

14     0915 hours.

15             And this is an entry which is 0915 hours on 5 August.  And it

16     again lists you as the person reporting and simply states Ocestovo,

17     times 5 pieces.

18             Can you recall your involvement with that particular entry?

19        A.   I apologise, page 6 in my batch of documents, doesn't contain the

20     entry.  I have a different type of numeration.  One page was skipped.  I

21     have 2, 3 -- or, rather, followed by 4, 5, 6.  Page 3 is missing.

22        Q.   My apologies there's actually -- it's page 6 in the e-court

23     version.  It actually says page 5 at the bottom of the one that I'm

24     looking for for you.  Because it appears that the actual third page has

25     not been numbered, so there has been a number skipped in the actual

Page 17657

 1     numbering in the handwriting.

 2        A.   At 9.15, Marko Rajcic, Ocestovo, 5 pieces.  Is that what we're

 3     referring to?

 4        Q.   Yes, it is.

 5             Can you explain that entry for us?

 6        A.   This means that on that date, there was fighting.  I was in

 7     direct contact with Artillery Group 4 and in the area of Ocestovo, there

 8     was fighting going on, and the unit engaged in infantry combat was

 9     supposed to receive support from a 130 gun because 203 Howitzers from

10     Artillery Group 4 did not have this particular location in their range.

11        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what exactly the target was in

12     Ocestovo that you ordered the firing on?

13        A.   This was the road from Kistanje to Stara Straza.  Perhaps a

14     kilometre and a half ahead of an intersection from Stara --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter didn't catch the name of the

16     location.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to Padjene.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the semi-last location you

19     referred to.  The interpreters couldn't hear you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ocestovo is a larger area across

21     which the Kistanje-Stara Straza road runs.  The location which was fired

22     at along the road was, according to what I can remember now, a kilometre

23     and a half away from an intersection of roads from -- of the road from

24     Stara Straza to Padjene.

25             MR. RUSSO:

Page 17658

 1        Q.   And can you tell the Chamber why you fired on that particular

 2     location, the one kilometre from the intersection?

 3        A.   Based on the information from the field, the enemy was pulling

 4     out, together with their military hardware.  The assessment was that in

 5     the area of Padjene, they would be setting up their second defence line.

 6     The goal of the fire was to make it impossible for the enemy to possibly

 7     set up another defence line in the area of Padjene in an organised

 8     fashion.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. RUSSO:  If we could move to page 8.  That's the same in

11     e-court.

12        Q.   That is, the number 7 will appear on the bottom of that page in

13     your handwritten version, Mr. Rajcic.

14             And at the entry for 0930 hours on 9 August, it lists you as

15     reporting the firing of 36 130-millimetre shells at the general area of

16     Srb.  And I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber what exactly

17     it was you were firing at at that particular time.

18        A.   In the general area of Srb, at an intersection of roads between

19     Licki Petrovac or -- I will have to think about the location.  This was

20     an intersection of roads in Srb; to the east was Licka Kaldrma, and to

21     the left, there was a road leading to the springs of the river Una.  That

22     was Donji Lapac, yes.  It was Donji Lapac.

23        Q.   Can you tell us why exactly you were firing 36 shells at that

24     particular area?

25        A.   For the same reason as before.  It is only customary when the

Page 17659

 1     enemy's pulling out with military hardware in combat that one should make

 2     sure that the enemy is prevented from organising a defence and putting up

 3     resistance, which may lead to further casualties and materiel damage.

 4        Q.   Did you have information at the time that the enemy was in fact

 5     attempting to set up a defence line, or is this more of a preventative

 6     measure?

 7        A.   Information was received from the 4th Guards Brigade to the

 8     effect that elements of the artillery -- or, rather, members of the

 9     artillery units of the 4th Guards Brigade clashed with the enemy in the

10     area, and they used infantry fire.  In other words, there were groups of

11     enemy forces which, although routed, were still dangerous for our

12     soldiers.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You'll see the very next entry on that page, which is

14     for the date of 12 August, indicates your ordering the firing of

15     25 shells of 130-millimetre cannon at Drvar.  And I would like you to

16     please explain to the Court why you ordered that firing.

17        A.   The intelligence assessments we had at the time indicated that,

18     from the direction of Drvar, a counterattack would be launched against

19     our forces in the area of Bosansko Grahovo.  That was the intelligence we

20     received, and the intelligence came from various sources and was obtained

21     in various means, indicating that the enemy forces in Drvar were

22     regrouping and building up with possibly engaging in a counterattack.

23             The counterattack did in fact take place, and in the area of

24     Bosansko Grahovo, we had 24 soldiers killed.  This particular action had

25     the following goal:  Between Bosansko Grahovo and Drvar into the depth of

Page 17660

 1     the enemy, artillery fire was supposed to use -- to be used in order to

 2     stop the enemy from advancing, and in order to allow us to organise

 3     ourselves properly and engage in proper defence.

 4        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, can you tell us what exactly in Drvar was fired at by

 5     TS-4 on your command?

 6        A.   The road intersection.  The lay of the ground on which Drvar sits

 7     is such that it allows only for two good quality manoeuvre exits for the

 8     forces; that's Bosansko Grahovo and Bosanski Petrovac.  It was these

 9     particular roads, exit roads, that we controlled with our fire, in order

10     to prevent, disturb and harass the enemy in their attempt to pass along

11     the same road.

12        Q.   If you could move to the third page that you have there, the one

13     which actually doesn't have a number at the bottom.  It's the third page

14     in e-court as well.

15             There's an entry for 1520 hours which states:  "Vlahov, T-130 for

16     OG Sinj."

17             Can you tell the Trial Chamber, if you know, what that refers to?

18        A.   Since I'm quite familiar with the entire area where we engaged in

19     combat, this means that the communication went through the then chief of

20     artillery for Operational Group North.  The Operations Group Sinj was

21     supposed to receive support on the orders of the commander of the

22     Sinj Operations Group.  Unless I'm mistaken, this was within the area of

23     responsibility of the 6th Home Guard Regiment, Biocici.  This was

24     supposed to be done according to the coordinates that were entered.  In

25     other words, the newly arisen target -- or, rather, in other words, this

Page 17661

 1     had to do with a target that had arisen as combat went on.

 2        Q.   And because it was a newly arisen target, is that why we find the

 3     actual coordinates written into the diary at that point?

 4        A.   Yes, precisely so.  If there is no numerical designation, and if

 5     is not contained in the target list, this was the proper form in which

 6     newly arisen targets would be entered into a document of this sort.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And staying on that same page, looking at the entry

 8     for 1545 hours, it states that:  "One shell in the middle of T-130 gun

 9     carriages.  No one injured."

10             Do you recall Artillery Group 4 taking a shell hit during the

11     operation?

12        A.   Yes.  And not just here.  This was for the second time, I

13     believe, that it involved Artillery Group 4.  We had another similar

14     situation on the first day that the enemy engaged Artillery Group 4.  I'm

15     familiar with this particular event, because I would receive timely

16     information on events such as this one.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rajcic.  You have indicated that you've both

18     reviewed this document in the past for your work for the Government of

19     Croatia and also that you were in real time overseeing the operations of

20     Artillery Group 4.

21             Is there anything that you found in this document that does not

22     correspond to your recollection of events during Operation Storm?

23        A.   If we are discussing matters that do not tally with the report of

24     Artillery Group 4, I can tell you that while I was reviewing documents at

25     my disposal, I observed a difference between the number of times

Page 17662

 1     Artillery Group 4 opened fire and the requests addressed to

 2     Artillery Group 4 from the Sibenik Operations Group.  The numbers didn't

 3     tally there.

 4             In my report, the document that I produced, by way of a

 5     confirmation of the work I did, I made a note of the fact that there were

 6     discrepancies as to how many times and at what intervals Artillery

 7     Group 4 opened fire, as compared to the number of requests it received to

 8     open artillery fire.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. RUSSO:  And if we could please show the witness

11     Exhibit P2341.

12        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, looking at the screen, is this the document, the

13     report to which you were referring where you noted the discrepancies

14     between the requests and the reports of Artillery Group 4?

15             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  This was not notified that

16     we were going to go into this document.  We had numerous conversations

17     and e-mails over the past week, and, as a matter of fact, I was informed

18     in no uncertain terms by Mr. Russo very adamantly on Friday that he was

19     going use two documents.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, I'm not actually going to use the

22     document.  I didn't realise that the witness was going refer to this.

23     I'm just trying to confirm that this is the report to which he is

24     referring that he has already provided the information.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness said something about reporting.

Page 17663

 1             If, Mr. Russo, if that's the purpose question, just to identify

 2     when he talked about reporting whether he was referring to this report

 3     without going to the content of it, then it would clarify and would not

 4     put you in a difficult position, because we would just better understand

 5     what his answer was.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.  It may be very well given

 7     that that I have go back into this but I have to take a look at it at the

 8     break.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Mr. Russo, so your question to the witness was ...

11             Please repeat it.

12             MR. RUSSO:

13        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, looking at the document on the screen, is this the

14     report to which you were just referring a moment ago?

15        A.   Yes.  This is a part of the report on page 1, and that's what I

16     did, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, at this time I would move for the

19     admission of 65 ter 7160.  That's the --

20             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections from the other Defence

22     counsel.

23             Madam Registrar, that would be number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

25     P2533.

Page 17664

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I do have no further

 3     questions for the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think the best thing to do is to have a break

 5     now and then continue after the break.

 6             Could I receive estimates from the parties, now knowing what the

 7     examination-in-chief has been.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I will probably be about two hours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Two hours.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  And as it refers to Markac Defence -- I'm sorry.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Higgins was on her feet.  If you would not

12     object, Mr. Mikulicic.

13             MS. HIGGINS:  Very briefly, Your Honour, no questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, my apologies for not being polite and

16     especially towards a lady.

17             I wouldn't expect more than 30 minutes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which means that there's a fair chance that we

19     would finish this morning.

20             We'll have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I take it that the Defence has seen the

24     decision --

25             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

Page 17665

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of the Chamber last Friday --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which may have an impact on --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- what we expect to you do, or what you are -- what

 6     you will question the witness about.

 7             Mr. Rajcic, you will now be cross-examined or further examined by

 8     Mr. Kehoe, who is -- well, you know Mr. Kehoe is counsel for

 9     Mr. Gotovina.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, just before I proceed.  With regard to

12     P2533, I did not object before.  There are a few word changes in that

13     document.  That's the Milin diary.  I can sit down with counsel and

14     resolve it.  There are a couple of words missing but there's nothing of

15     any major consequence, but I just want to mention that before I proceed.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll hear the outcome of your

17     conversations with Mr. Russo.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe: [Continued]

21        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Rajcic.  Mr. Rajcic, we were talking --

22        A.   Good morning to you too.

23        Q.   You were talking this morning with Mr. Russo about the list of

24     targets that you had where it notes at the top TS-3, that's D1447.  And

25     TS-3 was -- at the time of Operation Storm was TS-5.  Is that right?

Page 17666

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, during the course of your testimony this morning, you

 3     mentioned a database and in fact in your -- I'm just corrected.  Just so

 4     I clarify that it was renamed TS-5 at the time.  So it was TS-3 and then

 5     it was renamed TS-5; that's right?  Yes, you have to say --

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   Now, during the course of your testimony this morning and in your

 8     prior testimony, and this is at page 16.329 at line 2, you talked about

 9     the production of a database for various targets.  Do you recall that

10     sir?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And one of the individuals who assisted greatly in the production

13     of that database was a Mr. Marijan First; isn't that right?

14        A.   Marijan First, yes.

15        Q.   Pardon my pronunciation, Marijan First.

16        A.   [In English] Okay.

17        Q.   And Marijan First was -- what was he in the scheme of things?

18        A.   [Interpretation] He was my assistant.  In operational terms, he

19     was the assistant for artillery.

20        Q.   Let us a look a little bit and explore this database and this

21     is -- this was a database that had been compiled with information over a

22     significant period of time, was it not?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Let me -- if I can show you a hard copy and -- as well as hand

25     some out to the Chamber and counsel.

Page 17667

 1             If I can direct your attention to 1D00-1062.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  And for the purposes of clarification, Mr. President,

 3     there was a document that was given to the Office of the Prosecutor by

 4     the Republic of Croatia and has since been turned over to the Defence.

 5        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, if you could take a look at this particular document.

 6     And it's in an A-3 form.

 7             Do you recognise this format, sir?

 8        A.   Well, yes.  This is the format that was used whenever this was

 9     computer processed.  A-3 and A-4 were the usual formats.

10        Q.   Now, this is -- as opposed to the document that we looked at this

11     morning that Mr. Russo gave you, which was listed by ordinals numbers, 1

12     through -- certainly there were some gaps in it, but 1 through, I

13     believe, 87.  This is a listed by coordinate values, isn't it?  And

14     coordinate values being the Y, X, Z coordinates.

15        A.   Yes.  I should actually take a look and see whether it was in the

16     normal order as things as the targets were distributed.  If we have, for

17     instance -- if we look at the first one, the 6th and 7th coordinates, we

18     can see that both X and Y are increasing or incrementally or they should

19     be decreasing.  That's the normal order of things.

20        Q.   And this is to compare these various targets to prevent

21     duplication and see if the various reporting agencies were talking about

22     the same target, wasn't it?

23        A.   Well, yes, in any case, each target has its precise coordinates,

24     and that's the only coordinates they can be.  They can't be different.

25     The only thing is we can designate three different numbers for three

Page 17668

 1     different users.  But the coordinates are always the same.

 2        Q.   Now, as we look at this, I mean, we have sources of information

 3     over in the second-to-last column, and those entities are the entities

 4     that are reporting to you the particular targets in that area.  For

 5     instance, on page 1, it's the 134th.

 6        A.   Yes, the Home Guard Regiment.

 7        Q.   We'll get into a little bit more of a comparison with this as it

 8     related to the list we talked to this morning.  But I'd like to talk

 9     about some general topics first.

10             And if you could just look at this document and just page through

11     it with your eye on the operative group at the top of the page, and I do

12     believe that the first ten pages of this document reflects that these are

13     targets with their coordinate values for Operative Group Zadar.

14             Do you see that?  Look at the top of the page for the first

15     ten pages.  It may actually be 11 pages.  Ten?  Ten.

16             They're all for OG Zadar, right?

17        A.   Yes, Operations Group Zadar.  And as for the target, judging by

18     it, I recognise this area, and I claim that it is -- it was in the area

19     of the Zadar Operations Group.

20        Q.   Now, if we continue on to -- from pages 11 to 12 we have a

21     listing of targets for Operative Group Sinj.

22        A.   Yes, I can see it.

23        Q.   Okay.  And then, lastly, from pages 13 to 18, we have a series of

24     targets for Operative Group Sibenik.

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's right.

Page 17669

 1        Q.   Now I just note by way of clarification, in this entire document

 2     if we look at the lower right-hand corner, this document is prior to the

 3     document that you reviewed this morning, D1447, as it is dated

 4     12 April 1995.

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes, I can see it.

 7        Q.   Now, this document indicates that these three operative groups

 8     had these targets within their geographical area, doesn't it?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, this morning, you were asked a question by Mr. Russo, and if

11     I can just point to the area, and we noted in -- we don't have to flip

12     back for it.  In D1447 there was a gap between - and this is the ordinal

13     number - between 87 and 2737.  Do you recall that, sir?  That's on the

14     second page of your document that Mr. Russo was talking to you about this

15     morning.

16        A.   Yes, I see it.

17        Q.   Now let us turn back to the large A-3 document that we discussed

18     previously and let us go to, if we can, the first page of OG Sinj, and

19     that would be on the right upper right-hand corner, 06397160, and you see

20     in that page alone there are any number of numbers between 87 and 273.

21             Do you see that?  That's at page --

22        A.   Just a moment.  Just a moment, please.  Operative Group Sinj, I

23     see 470, and then on the first page, 125.  No, I don't have that part

24     here.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... let me backtrack just a bit

Page 17670

 1     and maybe I just went a bit too quick -- too quickly.

 2             We talked this morning about a gap between target number 87 and

 3     target number 273, and just an attempt to -- to look at why in the

 4     OG Zadar Group there is a gap in those numbers.  Let's just begin by

 5     looking at the OG Sinj numbers.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  That would be page 11 in the B/C/S.  And page 28 in

 7     the English.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but for Operative

 9     Group Sinj, I see pages 1 and 2, not 11 and 12.  And for Operative Group

10     Zadar, I have 10.

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   Okay, but just stay with that -- just stay with that page.  The

13     first group on Sinj.

14             Okay.  Now in that first page of Operative Group Sinj, you see

15     many numbers in the right hand -- in the left-hand column between 87 and

16     273, do you not?

17        A.   Well, I have to intervene again.  That's not what it says here.

18     I see a series of 470, but these numbers are not in sequence.

19        Q.   Exactly.  Now, they're not in sequence but if you go down the

20     list of those numbers, for instance, if we go to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,

21     9, the ninth one down, it has number 126.  Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now 126 is, of course, we don't -- there's not a question on

24     this, of course it's between 87 and 273.  So when you look at the gap in

25     this document, it would indicate to you that some of those targets

Page 17671

 1     between 87 and 273 were for targets for other operative groups other than

 2     Zadar, weren't they?

 3             MR. RUSSO:  Objection, Mr. President.  I think there's a missing

 4     foundation.  This -- perhaps the witness should remove his ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones for a second.

 6             Mr. Russo.

 7             MR. RUSSO:  I'm not certain that it has been established or yet

 8     put to the witness that the numbers which are on this document are in

 9     fact the numbers which are missing from the document which we looked at

10     previously.  The witness testified during direct examination that he

11     didn't know what those targets were.  And so to now put this to him --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to be very practical in this respect.

13             What you apparently want to establish, Mr. Kehoe, is that the

14     missing numbers are not in the same operative group and we find them

15     somewhere else.

16             MR. KEHOE:  That's the sum and substance of it, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's try to do that.  First of all, what one

18     could do is to look at the numbers.  I tried to find, for example, some

19     of the numbers on this list and they were all missing on the other one

20     but this is, of course, only a -- I'm talking about Sinj.  This is, of

21     course, I haven't had any opportunity to do it systematically.

22             May I take it that you have done that systematically?

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Are there any numbers which appear both in

25     the Sinj list and in the Zadar list?

Page 17672

 1             MR. KEHOE:  I can tell you I didn't find any.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't find any.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  And I will go back and look more thoroughly, but I do

 4     not believe so.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Because it would give us information on two levels.

 6     First, if we do not find any, that there's a fair chance that the lists

 7     perhaps not for the full 100 percent but are complimentary.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's one.  Second, if we would find one,

10     then, of course, we could look at the description of the target which

11     would give us some information as to whether we are talking about the

12     same thing.  It could still be coincidence that the numbers do not match,

13     but if we would find -- well, let's say, 487 saying firing position and

14     if in the other we would find 487 being a bunker with different

15     coordinates, then -- so, therefore, to a large extent, this information

16     can be obtained from these documents --

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- not by me and not in three minutes.  But by the

19     parties.

20             Mr. Russo, I take it that you -- while that your concerns that

21     we're trying to establish what these two lists can tell us, even if it

22     has not been established, Mr. Kehoe, also let's ask whether the witness

23     knows anything about it.  If not, then, of course, it would be an

24     analysis rather than obtaining factual information from the witness.

25     Isn't it?

Page 17673

 1             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Judge.  Just one clarify -- if the witness

 2     knowing anything about ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if he would know about this numbers and then

 4     you could point 15 and then say 119, I see it or I don't see it.  But if

 5     he has no personal knowledge, then I think our analysis, just

 6     mathematical approach, what do we find on the one, what do we find on the

 7     other.  Is there any overlap; if there's not an overlap, that at least

 8     makes it -- increases the likelihood of the lists being supplement --

 9     supplemental to each other.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If we do find them to see what then the list tells.

12             So you if you would please focus on what the witness knows and --

13     well, it might --

14             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Mr. President, if I can -- I was just

15     informed by one of my colleagues who did do the list there is no overlap.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  There's not, okay.

17             MR. KEHOE:  The second issue --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Good.  And that's -- Mr. Russo, you can -- you may

19     have all the time to verify that.

20             Yes.

21             MR. KEHOE:  That the -- the second issue is I didn't want to

22     limit this to just OG Sinj.  If we look back at OG Sibenik, those targets

23     also fill in some of the gaps that are in the OG -- the OG Zadar list

24     that we had this morning, D1 --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Also no overlap?

Page 17674

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then it's comparing lists -- if the witness

 3     knows anything about it, of course, please ask him.  If he doesn't know

 4     that much about it, let's focus on our analysis.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. KEHOE:

 8        Q.   Going back to --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Russo, may I take it that this more or less

10     addresses your concerns as well?

11             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   Now, just going back and looking at this.  You're familiar this

14     type -- I'm sorry.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I think he is having audio

16     difficulties.

17             THE WITNESS:  It's okay.

18             MR. KEHOE:

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, Mr. Rajcic, are you familiar with this type of

20     formatting in this type of list that was put together by Mr. First and

21     the people in the intelligence area?

22        A.   [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any interpretation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, if you could assist the witness.  Is he

24     on the right channel.

25             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

Page 17675

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rajcic, can now hear me in a language that you

 2     understand?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 5             MR. KEHOE:

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Rajcic, I had just previously asked you are you familiar

 7     with this type of document with the formatting, as it is before you, that

 8     was put together by Mr. First and the individuals in the intelligence

 9     section?

10        A.   Yes, it is familiar.

11        Q.   Now let me just, if I can, for one moment just briefly go through

12     some of these documents and we if look back at -- and we don't need --

13             MR. KEHOE:  We can bring it back up on the screen, which is the

14     D447.

15        Q.   It's the list that we were talking about this morning.  And we

16     just look at number 694.

17             I'm sorry, it was D1447, I'm sorry.  If we go to list -- if we go

18     and where you see 694, that would be page 27 in the English and 8 in the

19     B/C/S.

20             We see a barracks there.  Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Okay.  And if we just compare that particular item with the

23     previous document that we were talking about, and if you can turn to --

24             MR. KEHOE:  And this is it 1D00-1062.

25        Q.   And we look for 694, and that would be on page 6 of the English

Page 17676

 1     and page 3 of the B/C/S.  At the top of the page.  We did this for ease,

 2     if you can.

 3             Now, if you compare both of those, and it is also true of 695,

 4     both of those entries in the document that Mr. Russo showed you this

 5     morning, D1447 and this document, has the same entry and the same

 6     numbers, doesn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes, they do.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... the only difference in this

 9     entire list and the way it is formatted is -- is the listing by X, Y, Z

10     coordinates, the coordinate values as opposed to the ordinal numbers on

11     left-hand side?

12        A.   Y coordinate.

13        Q.   Yes.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we will offer into

15     evidence 1D00-1062.

16             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1459.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Rajcic, I'd like to continue ask you some questions

22     about the document that we were reviewing with Mr. Russo, D1442, and I

23     would like to just discuss with you some of your testimony and some of

24     the maps that you did on Benkovac.  You will see it in a second but we

25     have attempted to overlay your markings on an exhibit with the targets as

Page 17677

 1     listed in D1442.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  And if we can go to 1D00-1138.

 3             Mr. President, what we have here and I -- just by way of

 4     explanation is, and we will just start with the first document that comes

 5     up on the screen.  What you will see is P2327, which is the map of

 6     Benkovac, as marked by Mr. Rajcic back on 19 February 2009, at

 7     pages 16.306, line 15, through 16.312, line 17.

 8             And what we have done, Mr. President, is overlay that particular

 9     item with the coordinates from the Jagoda list, which is the -- D1447.

10             And as we move sequentially through this, we have done it for

11     Benkovac, Obrovac, and Gracac.

12             If we can do the first one first, please.

13        Q.   Now, as you can see, the green markings -- or the -- the circles

14     are the circles that you made, Mr. Rajcic, and the green markings are the

15     grid coordinates -- and the blue markings, I take it, the grid

16     coordinates from the list, D1447?

17             Do you see that, sir?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And the marks that you had, that you put on this document when

20     you were being examined by Mr. Russo were markings you took from your

21     recollection as targets that you recall were fired upon in Benkovac; is

22     that right?

23        A.   Yes.  The general area where the barracks, the police station,

24     and the intersection were.  The question was where the barracks was,

25     whether I remembered where the police station was, and I was asked which

Page 17678

 1     other targets were planned to be targeted by Artillery Group 5 in

 2     Benkovac, in Benkovac proper, and in the outskirts of Benkovac.

 3        Q.   And you did that based on recollection without actually looking

 4     at the specific grid coordinates that you now have before you that were

 5     taken from this D1442; isn't that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, let me just clarify one thing with these targets and we'll

 8     go into this a little bit differently.

 9             The targets that you are talking about are targets that are being

10     fired upon at a Military District level, targets that you want fired upon

11     at a Military District level.  Is that right?

12        A.   It is correct to say that they were planned to be fired upon, not

13     the ones that were fired upon.

14        Q.   I understand.  And that's you plan ahead of time so you don't

15     have to do the geometry during the course of combat; isn't that right?

16        A.   Yes.  There is a methodology of preparations to be made for

17     combat, depending on the season, depending on whether the hardware was

18     supposed to be repaired, and the like.

19        Q.   Now, in addition to targets that you had at the Military District

20     level, if we look at the list that Mr. Russo was talking about this

21     morning, there are numerous targets that are listed there that are

22     tactical targets, aren't there, that battalions and brigades would fire

23     upon at a tactical level; isn't that right?

24        A.   Yes.  If the markings in blue indicate the contents of the list,

25     then this was intended for the operations level.

Page 17679

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat what he said about the

 2     tactical level.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat what you said about the

 4     tactical level so that the interpreters can catch it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The targets marked in blue, if my

 6     understanding of what Mr. Kehoe said is correct, were taken from this

 7     list that I have before me, and they were targets located in the general

 8     area of Benkovac.  When selecting targets and choosing the unit that

 9     would fire upon them, then, what was set aside for Artillery Group 5 is

10     set aside for operational level, whereas all the other targets were at

11     the tactical level and they were the responsibility of the unit which was

12     designated to fire upon them, if the unit decides that it is necessary to

13     open fire.

14             MR. KEHOE:

15        Q.   And, Mr. Rajcic --

16             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, counsel.

17             MR. RUSSO:  I just need to make a clarification.  It is uncertain

18     to me if the witness -- he keeps saying "if my understanding of what

19     Mr. Kehoe says -- if this is correct."  I'm not sure if the witness is

20     saying this is what is actually the case or his understanding if that's

21     what's being put to him.  I'm not clear about that.

22             MR. KEHOE:  I think the answer is clear but I will do --

23     endeavour to talk about firing at a tactical level.

24        Q.   Now the decision to fire at a tactical level is being made by

25     lower level commanders, isn't it?

Page 17680

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, if we can just turn to the next slide.  And for

 3     clarification purposes, again we are dealing with Benkovac.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, we did this for clarity purposes so

 5     Your Honours will see the area from Google Earth where these targets are

 6     on the grid coordinates, so ...

 7             If we can move to the slide which is -- again, we have done the

 8     same thing and we're talking now about the Obrovac area.  And the circles

 9     that you have -- and, again, you discussed this during the course of your

10     testimony.

11             And you noted the items that are -- and that's -- in the Obrovac

12     area he was talking about, on 19 February 2009, again, at 16.326, line 3,

13     through 16.333, line 10.

14             Again, you listed the bridge and a cross-roads in 673 and the

15     cross-roads at the bottom which is designated as 693.

16             Do you see that, sir?

17        A.   Yes, I see the markings in green.

18        Q.   Excuse me, 674, 673 and 674.

19        A.   674.

20        Q.   Now there were in fact the other targets in this list.  If we

21     look at the top, I believe it is 670, the Glinice factory, 355, an

22     artillery firing position we have on the screen.  We look at the

23     left-hand side of this document, 338, combat accommodations.

24             Those were entities that were not fired upon at the Split

25     Military District level.  Is that right?

Page 17681

 1        A.   I'm not able to say whether fire was opened because I don't have

 2     that information in regard to Tactical Group 5, although I know that as

 3     part of preparations it was not planned to open fire.

 4             The later artillery support fire was directed or ordered by the

 5     competent unit as combat progresses.  That's why I'm unable to say

 6     whether fire was opened or not.

 7        Q.   Let's look at number 670 on your list which is the Glinice

 8     factory.

 9        A.   Which page is that, please?

10        Q.   That would be -- if you go just through these numbers, it's 670,

11     it would be list page 8 at the lower left-hand corner.

12             Do you see that, 670 which is the -- in the --

13        A.   Yes.  Glinice factory.

14        Q.   And if we look that factory, that it notes that it is a Military

15     District old list.  Old source.  Do you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, based on that information there, was it your recollection

18     that that the Glinice factory was not fired upon even though it was on

19     this list of targets?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.  I don't think it was fired upon, the factory,

21     because it was visible from the surrounding hills.  There were not many

22     units defending the position.  I think it was only a squad that was

23     there.  But this particular location was listed among the targets where

24     the forces were expected to have the strength of up to a platoon.  It was

25     merely entered into the database as a target.

Page 17682

 1        Q.   Now, let us talk about these entries into the database just a

 2     little bit, and let's talk about them in terms of Obrovac.

 3             Now, Obrovac was near the front line, wasn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And near the front line position that was manned by the ARSK,

 6     there were any number of tactical positions or tactical targets for the

 7     HV forces that were going to move towards the ARSK, weren't there?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Let's just demonstrate that with the next slide, because, again,

10     what we've done on this slide with the Obrovac near the front line --

11             MR. KEHOE:  If can we go to the next slide please.

12        Q.   We have basically given the confrontation line.  And as you can

13     see from Obrovac, in the middle of the page, there are any number of

14     targets that are on the list that we talked about this morning with

15     Mr. Russo.  And just for an example, we have 346, about midway through,

16     is a bunker.  Right below that is 340, a combat accommodation.  344,

17     armour positions.  And we can see from the numbers that are on the lists

18     there are any number of targets like that.

19             Now, those are targets that are going to be fired upon, if

20     necessary, at a tactical level, weren't they?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, let us turn to the Gracac map, and that would be -- your

23     testimony on that score was again on February 19th, 2009, at 16.361,

24     line 13, through 16.366, line 8.  And this is, again, we have taken your

25     document, which is P2329, and overlay it on --

Page 17683

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, could we go back to the previous.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- map for a second so that I have an opportunity to

 4     digest it.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  My apologies there, Your Honour.  The blue line is

 6     the HV line.  The red line is the ARSK line with the zone of separation

 7     between.  I didn't elaborate on that sufficiently.  But I left it -- it's

 8     in the legend on the lower right-hand corner.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The red and the blue, therefore, is not about

10     positions but is about lines.

11             MR. KEHOE:  About the confrontation line, yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, confrontation.  Yes, that is what troubled me a

13     bit because I didn't see any positions in red.  But I now see that you

14     meant to refer to the line.  That's clear to me now.

15             Let's move on.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

17             If we can go to the next -- back to Gracac.

18        Q.   Again, what we've done here as I noted just for the record this

19     is it P2329, the map that you had, that you -- and we overlayed it on

20     targets for Gracac.  And I believe that you designated from that several

21     targets in a factory and a cross-roads.

22             Now, your recollection on this, I believe, was not entirely clear

23     because your batteries weren't firing on this, is that right?  I mean,

24     you had handed over -- or you didn't control the firing on Gracac.  Is

25     that right?

Page 17684

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Well, with regard to this, I mean, Jagoda does list -- there were

 3     in fact any number of targets as we see here, or potential targets as we

 4     see here, in the list that we talked about this morning.  But you don't

 5     know if they were fired upon or not.  Is that right?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  If we can just turn to the next page.

 8             Again, what we did was overlay -- or take out the actual map and

 9     just give an idea of these targets in contrast to Gracac itself.

10             Your Honour -- Your Honour, at this time, we will offer into

11     evidence 1D00-1138, which is this sequence of maps as we have laid them

12     out Mr. President.

13             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, I don't object.  My only issue is that

14     with respect to number 4 in the series, that is, the Obrovac wider area,

15     Mr. Rajcic was asked about several of the targets and that it was put to

16     him that these were tactical level targets.  However, it wasn't put to

17     him whether the legend -- if in fact he agrees that all of the ones of

18     different colour relate to tactical targets versus Military District

19     targets, what his knowledge was about that.  I think if we can clear that

20     up, I have no objection.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, if we can just go back to map I can

22     clear it up in a second.

23             If we can go back to map 4, if we can.  And let's look at, for

24     instance, what we talked about before, if we can go to the list and look

25     at 346.

Page 17685

 1        Q.   If you could you turn to 346.  That's a good example as any, I

 2     would think.

 3             I picked that one out simply because we talked about it and it's

 4     at the centre of the page, and we look at 346, which is designated as a

 5     fortified trench bunker.

 6             Do you see that, sir?  Are you with me, Mr. Rajcic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Are you with me on the list itself of targets, 346, which

 9     is -- which is page 4 in the B/C/S and page 12 in the English.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, you see, even going down from the top of the page, 337 all

12     the way down, we have a series of targets, 346 being a fortified trench,

13     347, fortified trench, et cetera, and that information, if we go to the

14     source of the information, is coming from the 84th Guards Battalion,

15     isn't it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and that is a tactical

18     target for the 84th Guards Battalion, and not for the Military District;

19     isn't that right?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes, it's in the disposition of the 84th Guards Battalion,

21     or right ahead of the disposition or the deployment of the forces of the

22     84th Guards Battalion.

23        Q.   So what we're talking about is, if the 84th Guards Battalion is

24     moving on an offensive, if they deem it necessary, they want to hit this

25     trench prior to moving forward, don't they?

Page 17686

 1        A.   Yes, with their assets.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Once again, Your Honour, we'll offer this document,

 3     this map into evidence.  I don't know if we need any further

 4     clarification but I will be guided by any advice counsel can give me.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  My only issue is that the legend indicates, for

 6     example, green Military District targets.  I don't know if that is

 7     intended to indicate targets which the source of information is the

 8     Military District, or if, in fact, the witness can answer whether these

 9     were in fact targets for the Military District level.  That's --

10             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.  And can I answer that question with regard to

11     Obrovac.  The witness answered what he recalls was fired upon.  These

12     particular targets are taken from the document that we were talking about

13     this morning, D1447, and when we look at the source of information, it

14     will be the Military District.  That's the designation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, what we find on this map, the numbers and

16     the descriptions, is that taken from this Jagoda list?

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, verbatim.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Anything -- verbatim.  May I then take you to the

19     same map.  672 is close to the centre a little bit up to the right, 672

20     enemy unit.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If I look -- but it could be a translation

23     issue, but if I look at the Jagoda list, 672, it says other targets

24     Varos, Simici, without any description on whether it's an enemy unit

25     or -- who has added this information to what I find on 672?  Or is it the

Page 17687

 1     -- I'm looking at the one Mr. --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  I see what Your Honour is talking about.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm talking about the list that was used this

 4     mourn, the Jagoda list by Mr. Russo.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And I see that -- on the map I see information which

 7     does not appear in that list.  672, enemy unit, and I have not checked

 8     yet the coordinates whether that is really Varos, Simici.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  May I just check with my colleague?  Just one second,

10     Your Honour.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, that is our mistake.  I have to go

13     back and check this one again more thoroughly, but that is our mistake.

14     My apologies.  We have attempted to try to take this with the numbered

15     designation as accurately as possible, but that is a mistake.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course, you will understand that --

17             MR. KEHOE:  Of course.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- descriptions as other targets without any

19     further --

20             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- description are perhaps more intriguing than

22     firing positions.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- or ...

25             Now how to proceed.  Because then -- of course, this could be

Page 17688

 1     just one mistake.  It could also be that it's not -- what we find on

 2     these maps is not in every respect reliable.

 3             The reason why I checked it, Mr. Kehoe, is that on this Jagoda

 4     list we find sometimes other targets or a lack of a description; whereas,

 5     on the maps I didn't find any one, which raises another question, is

 6     whether all the entries of the Jagoda list, in the area covered by the

 7     map, are depicted or whether there is a possibility, that, for example,

 8     there are other targets or there are -- is it complete.  Is there --

 9     could you find on this list any coordinate and a number attached to it,

10     which does not appear on the maps?

11             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I can tell you that -- that we have

12     attempted to make a good faith effort on this particular area.  We will

13     go back and re-check it thoroughly, given this mistake and whether or not

14     there are any other targets on that list.  We did put some effort

15     involved in putting this together, and I can tell you, Your Honour,

16     Mr. President, that we will check and by Wednesday when we reconvene, if

17     we can just MFI it now, we will ensure that everything in here is correct

18     and if there, in fact, we missed a target that is in this geographical

19     area that is not depicted and I will share it with co-counsel prior to

20     coming in here.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then, Mr. Russo, you would agree with

22     this.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the MFI number for this series would

25     be.

Page 17689

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1460, marked for identification.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   If we can turn our attention to another topic that addressed this

 6     morning with P2533, which is the diary for TS-4.  Do you see that, sir?

 7        A.   You're referring to this one?

 8        Q.   I am, sir.  Yes, that's the one.  Yes.  I referred to it by

 9     P2533, so the woman that is typing over there in the corner and everybody

10     knows what we are talking about.

11             I'm interested in exploring with you some of the entries that

12     were discussed with you with Mr. Russo and specifically the ones that

13     were discussed on the 9th of August, 1995.  The first being at 9.30,

14     where you requested 36 pieces of T-130 to be fired in the general Srb

15     area -- or it says Srb general area.  I should -- I think it is probably

16     the last page in the B/C/S, if I'm not mistaken.  Maybe the

17     second-to-last page.  It is.  The second to last page in the B/C/S.

18             Do you see that, sir?  Now, just by --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now just clarifying this, I mean, as we look at Srb, I mean, Srb

21     is in Croatia, and just --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Just to the east of Srb is Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And when we look at the 9th of August, 1995, there was in the

Page 17690

 1     general Srb area, in this theatre of war around Srb, there was combat

 2     still going on, wasn't there?

 3        A.   Yes.  Still going on.

 4        Q.   And the combat was taking place, for the most part, in Bosnia,

 5     wasn't it?

 6        A.   For the most part, Operation Storm was on the territory of

 7     Croatia but the final stages were also on the territory of Bosnia.

 8        Q.   I'm talking about as of -- let's talk about --

 9        A.   Talking about the 9th?

10        Q.   The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th.  The theatre of war included

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, right?

12        A.   Yes.  And in smaller parts, Croatia, on the 9th.

13        Q.   Now, if we can just go down the next entry and we are talking

14     about you calling in 25 pieces of T-130s on the 12th of August to Drvar.

15             Do you see that?  Mr. Russo talked to you about that this

16     morning?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, Drvar was the headquarters for the 2nd Krajina Corps of the

19     Bosnian Serb army, wasn't it?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So at this juncture in time, and we are talking about between

22     9 August and 12 August, you now have a Serb force which comprises, in

23     part, the Bosnian Serb army conducting an offensive against the HV; isn't

24     that right?

25        A.   Yes.  That is the 2nd Corps.

Page 17691

 1        Q.   Well, they were -- they, in fact, conducted the offensive in

 2     which the HV lost, I think you said, 24 men on the 12th of August; isn't

 3     that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And in an attempt to fight back is this shelling that you talked

 6     about in the -- on the 9th as well as the 12th, an attempt to repel Serb

 7     forces?

 8        A.   To repel them and stop a possible -- prevent a possible

 9     counterattack.

10        Q.   And in fact, Mr. Rajcic, shortly after the 12th, the

11     counteroffensive by the Serbs was stopped, and the HV began their attack

12     again, didn't they?

13        A.   Yes.  It was stopped in the area of Bosansko Grahovo.

14        Q.   And throughout all this, of course, the person that was

15     commanding this at the highest level was General Gotovina; isn't that

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. KEHOE:  I think I'm through, Mr. President.  If I could just

19     check with my colleagues.  I did finish in much quicker time than I

20     anticipated but ...

21             If I may.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I have no further questions of

25     Mr. Rajcic at this time.

Page 17692

 1        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, thank you very much.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rajcic, the Defence of Mr. Cermak has no

 3     questions for you, from what I understand.

 4             Therefore, Mr. Mikulicic, are you --

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, in order to avoid being repetitive,

 6     I will have no questions for Mr. Rajcic as well.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

 8             Mr. Russo, has the cross-examination, because that's what it

 9     mainly came down to --

10             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- has that triggered any need for further

12     questions.

13             MR. RUSSO:  Just very briefly, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. RUSSO:  If we could again bring up D1460, MFI.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Russo:

17        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, looking at this map here, you see different targets

18     plotted.  The ones in blue, do you know whether or not those targets were

19     actually fired on during Operation Storm?

20        A.   I only know about the Slobodan Macura barracks, because the --

21     the firing was planned for the Artillery Group 5, so I know of that.

22             As for the others, I don't know anything about it.  So there was

23     an artillery preparation for an attack on Slobodan Macura barracks.

24        Q.   Looking at the other -- the targets in blue, if those in fact

25     were fired upon or planned to be fired on during Operation Storm, would

Page 17693

 1     you have received any reports or notifications that anyone had fired on

 2     those positions, whether they are at the tactical level, operational

 3     level, or any other level?

 4        A.   I would only have received it if there were some major

 5     disturbances in coordinating the combat, as far as artillery is

 6     concerned.  As for the firing of targets -- on targets at the tactical

 7     level, through regular channels, each tactical unit was supposed to

 8     prepare a written report, and by way of their operative centre, they

 9     should inform the forward command post in Zadar thereof and in Sajkovici.

10     That was the pattern.  Then an analysis of the targets engaged would be

11     done, who engaged the targets, and in such situations we -- I would know

12     whether there was fire opened on a target or not.

13             I've already said that on the 4th of August, and the 5th in the

14     afternoon, I only received information that the Artillery Group 5 had

15     fired during artillery preparation on the barracks Slobodan Macura.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And rather than taking you through each one of these

17     slides, does the same situation apply with respect to the areas of

18     Obrovac and Benkovac -- and Gracac?

19        A.   Yes.  For Obrovac, when I marked the plotted targets the last

20     time, this was in the period of planning for the combat.

21             Now, in the course of the combat, the artillery group or the

22     remaining part of the artillery group, which had remained after a part of

23     it had been set aside for the needs of the military police, the

24     130-millimetre guns could not reach Benkovac [as interpreted].

25        Q.   I think I would like to take you back to the answer you just

Page 17694

 1     gave.

 2             Where you read -- let me read it back to you.  It reads that:

 3             "In the course of the combat, the artillery group or the

 4     remaining part of the artillery group, which had remained after a part of

 5     it had been set aside for the needs of the military police, the

 6     130-millimetre guns could not reach Benkovac?"

 7             Is that correct?  Is it military police?

 8        A.   Not Benkovac; Obrovac.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, thank you very much.

11             MR. KEHOE:  If can I just clarify one point that was just raised

12     there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do.

14                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

15        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, just staying on this map that's on the screen, which

16     is D1460, MFI, for Benkovac, and we have, for instance, at the bottom

17     that 696 is a road, 953 is a cross-roads west, 743 just straight above

18     that is an artillery firing position.

19             Do you see those?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You -- if those positions were fired upon during the course of

22     the day at a tactical level, absent a large disturbance, you wouldn't

23     receive reports back or you wouldn't have been notified at the time that

24     they were in fact firing on those positions, would you?

25             MR. RUSSO:  Objection, Mr. President.  That question has been

Page 17695

 1     asked and answered.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  It was just -- what was -- the issue that was brought

 3     up on redirect examination was an attempt to somewhat --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may answer the question.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If these targets that you mentioned

 7     that are marked in blue were engaged at tactical level, I described the

 8     manner of reporting.  The information would be collected at the

 9     operations centre of the forward command post in Zadar, where they would

10     be analysed, and if there were some disturbances then such information

11     would be forwarded to the main command, General Gotovina in Sajkovici, or

12     me and the officers in the artillery administration.  If not so, then

13     there was no need to send any reports.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rajcic.  I have no further questions.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rajcic, I have a few questions for you.

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to take you back to the -- to the entries

19     in the diary which you were asked about before.  That is, the 36 pieces

20     fired at the 9th of August to, as you described, the Srb -- no, as

21     described in the diary Srb general area.  And then the 12th of August,

22     the Drvar, 25 pieces.

23             Could you give us some more details about when you gave these

24     orders, or at least there were perceived as your orders or written down

25     as your orders, to -- to fire 36 pieces of the -- to the Srb general

Page 17696

 1     area.  Where were you at that time?

 2        A.   At the time, I was at the forward command post in Sajkovici.  I

 3     apologise, excuse me.  In Knin.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The firing of 36 pieces is reported as at 9.30 in

 5     the morning.

 6             Could you give us more details about when you received

 7     information, what kind of information it exactly was, and in which way

 8     you phrased your orders?

 9        A.   On the night between the 8th and 9th, we received information

10     that there were still some remnants of the army of the so-called Republic

11     of Serbian Krajina in the area of the cross-roads, around the

12     cross-roads, and it was necessary to advance with our forces, because the

13     president of the Republic of Croatia had ordered that we should reach the

14     state border.  Which means that the Croatian army, on the 9th of August,

15     had not fully completed that order because the border was nearby, and

16     we -- to get there, we had to go through Srb.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  May I stop you there for a second.

18             You said there were remnants of the forces there - let me just

19     find your exact wording - "some remnants of the army of the so-called

20     Republic of Serbian Krajina."

21             Could you tell us more?  Was that 100 people?  Was that -- how

22     organised were they?  What type of information did you receive?

23        A.   I cannot give you the numbers or the formations as organise -- as

24     the structure units.  What information we did have was that there were

25     troops amassing in that area.  Our forces had to advance and reach the

Page 17697

 1     border and, of course, what followed was the normal procedure, which also

 2     included artillery support.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you have any information as to the

 4     weaponry used by those troops?

 5        A.   There was information that there were pulling out their

 6     artillery, parts of their artillery.  Parts were left behind and we found

 7     them on the road.  And, of course, the assumption was that the artillery

 8     that they had with them will be deployed somewhere in that area and used

 9     against us.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You said artillery were left behind.  Was there any

11     artillery fire, one party to another, reported to you at this morning?

12     Well, let's say, from the last 12 hours.

13        A.   Your Honour, I've already said that in the area of Srpski Klanac,

14     which is south of Srb, an observation post, an artillery observation post

15     of the 4th Artillery Brigade had been attacked.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  4th Guards Brigade, interpreter's correction.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you describe the attack, what happened,

18     what kind of weapons were used?

19        A.   I cannot describe it because I was not at the artillery post.

20     Other than the information that I received from the operations centre, I

21     didn't have any other information.  The information was that this

22     observation post had been attacked by artillery, either by tanks or

23     artillery pieces, that were still part of the army of the so-called

24     Republic of Serbian Krajina, and this was the reason why they had to be

25     neutralised, those assets.  In other words, that that part, those

Page 17698

 1     remnants of the -- that the army that had been, as it was, those

 2     remnants, and -- received another psychological blow and lost, as it

 3     were, the will and desire to fight.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Was anything reported as where the artillery fire

 5     came from, or tank fire?  You said artillery or tank fire.  Which

 6     direction?  From -- within Croatia; was it from Bosnian territory?  Could

 7     you tell us what was reported to you?

 8        A.   After an analysis of the terrain and the topographic maps, you

 9     can see that Srb is between -- is nested between high peaks and there is

10     not much room to develop forces on the left and right flanks.  The only

11     possibility that remained was that this should be done on -- along the

12     road which they were taking to pull out.  And based on the information

13     that we received from the first combat lines, or deployments of our

14     lines, we understood that this was around the cross-roads, the -- in the

15     general area of Srb, leading to Lapac or -- from the north towards

16     Bosnia, Licka Kaldrma and Drvar.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were there any -- apparently in this clash,

18     you describe it as tank or artillery.  Were the positions finally

19     identified from where the -- your unit was attacked?

20        A.   Your Honour, it is standard procedure, or, rather, they didn't

21     have enough time -- the enemy forces did not have enough time to conduct

22     this properly, to have engineering fortifications built and so on.  In

23     such situations, these things are just hastily organised, in order to

24     prevent the enemy from advancing quickly through the area of attack that

25     had been designated.  In other words, this would be done along a road, in

Page 17699

 1     a garden, in a backyard, or whatever, and in this way, they would fire

 2     back.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you ordered that -- was, in these clashes, were

 4     there any casualties on the ARSK side?

 5        A.   According to the information that I had, I don't know that any

 6     dead soldiers of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina were found

 7     there.  I don't have that information, or, for that matter, of any

 8     civilians.  And, of course, now I'm just referring to the area that we

 9     are now discussing.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And how wide would that area -- I mean, if soldiers

11     on the other side would have been killed you would have found them, or

12     not?

13        A.   Yes.  But that was not my role, nor was it my task, nor was I

14     supposed to do that at the level where I was.  So I was not meant to

15     receive such information, such feedback.  I would not be the first

16     instance to receive it, if there had been some dead enemy there.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were there any casualties in these clashes

18     among your people?

19        A.   As far as I know, there were one or two slightly wounded

20     soldiers, wounded by fragments of some shells or maybe some infantry

21     weapons.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And those wounded were members of what unit or

23     what ...

24        A.   I think they were members of the 4th Guards Brigade.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you describe what then happened.  These pieces

Page 17700

 1     were fired, the 36, apparently.  Did you receive any report on the effect

 2     of what was hit, what the results were in ...

 3        A.   Well, I can only say that the results were such that the army of

 4     the Republic of Serbian Krajina left that area, and a few officers and I

 5     flew over that area in a few helicopters.  We landed in Srb.  We couldn't

 6     see anything.  Our job was to reconnoitre the area and decide how to

 7     re-deploy the tank pieces.

 8             And there was only one minor incident.  Fire was opened on our

 9     helicopter from small-arms fire, and there were -- there was no -- there

10     were no consequences of that fire.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The 36 projectiles fired, did they hit the target,

12     as you described it, before?  Since you flew over the area, could you

13     give us some more details about what the effect of this firing exactly

14     had been.

15        A.   In the area that was targeted, as I passed by the intersection in

16     a hurry, I saw several explosion-caused craters which led me to conclude

17     that the unit opened fire upon the targets that were intended.  Of

18     course, I did not investigate in respect of each and every projectile.

19     It was impossible.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's move on in the days that followed.

21             What happened between the 9th and the 12th exactly, which caused

22     you to -- to give the order on the 12th?  And I would like you to talk

23     about it in chronological order.  What caused you to -- to give an order

24     to fire on Drvar, 25 pieces?

25        A.   I will try to reconstruct the events of the 9th through 12th on

Page 17701

 1     the basis of what I remember.

 2             On the 9th, on the order from General Gotovina, I was supposed to

 3     use the 112th Brigade, 7th Home Guard Brigade and 134th Home Guard

 4     Regiment troops in order to take positions along the state border in the

 5     area of Srb.  I went back to the headquarters of Artillery Groups 4 and

 6     5, the ones that had redeployed to the area of Srb.  They had

 7     130-millimetre guns and I ordered them to take up fire positions in the

 8     village of Kupirovo, south of Srb, in that general area.

 9             Then, on the orders from General Gotovina, I went to the forward

10     command post in Sajkovici, and I was given the task of technically

11     dismantling the forward command post, since a group, the Operations Group

12     East, Istok, was set up in Bosansko Grahovo.  Operations Group West was

13     in the making in Srb.

14             As I was engaged in dismantling the forward command post in the

15     village of Sajkovici, I received from intelligence officers of the

16     Split Military District in Knin the particular piece of information that

17     I referred to before, to the effect that the enemy had been regrouping

18     their forces in the area of Drvar, in cooperation with the Bosnian Serb

19     Krajina, the 2nd Krajina Corps, and that there -- and that it was quite

20     likely that they would be launching a counterattack against us in the

21     area of Bosansko Grahovo.

22             For that reason, artillery pieces were fired at 8.30.

23     130-millimetre guns were used.  These were guns of the Artillery Group 3

24     which were still located at the firing position in the village of Luka,

25     next to Bosansko Grahovo.

Page 17702

 1             As I've already said, the goal of the fire was to make sure that

 2     in the pass south of Drvar, in a canyon there, we should prevent the

 3     enemy forces from advancing, since they had been there regrouping and

 4     reorganising themselves.

 5             On that same day, in the afternoon hours, I travelled the area

 6     from Bosansko Grahovo to Knin.  Towards the evening hours, I met

 7     General Gotovina at the headquarters, and he told me and gave me an

 8     order.  He said that a counter-attack had been launched in the area of

 9     Bosansko Grahovo, that there were quite a few casualties involved.  He

10     told me to take the battalion which was left in Knin of the 7th Guards

11     Brigade, they were left there as an intervention force, and to head back

12     to Bosansko Grahovo.  We should have carried out --

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes.  You said

14     for that reason artillery pieces were fired at 8.30.  That was on the

15     basis of intelligence.

16             Earlier you said something about that you had lost 24 of your

17     men.  When was that exactly?

18        A.   To the best of my recollection, it happened on the 12th, in the

19     afternoon hours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So you lost your 24 men before you ordered the

21     25 pieces to be fired at Drvar.  Is that ...

22        A.   No, later.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm -- what I said is not -- yes.

24             In the afternoon of the same day, where in the morning, you gave

25     orders to fire at Drvar.

Page 17703

 1             I take you back to the 9th.  Engaging a cross-roads, would that,

 2     under normal circumstances, take 36 pieces?

 3        A.   Under normal circumstances, it would depend on the strength of

 4     the forces on the other side.

 5             If we take the standard norms of the eastern option, artillery

 6     fire would be used in order to neutralise the enemy, to disturb or harass

 7     the enemy which, in that case, would involve 10 percent of ammunition

 8     expenditure for neutralising 25 percent of the infantry forces at the

 9     target of the artillery pieces.  The target being in an open area and not

10     fortified.

11             Now, one should calculate how many projectiles would be needed to

12     neutralise such a target, or, rather, to neutralise 25 percent of such a

13     target, in order to be able to say that the 25 projectiles were in fact

14     only 10 percent of the entire amount.  So that would involve a bit of

15     maths.  I don't know if we have time enough to go into these calculations

16     now or not.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then again me what exactly the target was

18     for the 36 pieces.

19        A.   Based on the information from the intelligence organ, the enemy

20     forces could have been 100, 200, or 300 who were regrouping and building

21     up their forces.  These, together with the VRS forces, that's to say, the

22     2nd Krajina Corps, were organising their forces with a view to launching

23     a counterattack.  This type of target can be qualified as a target of the

24     strength of an artillery battalion, and the dimension of the target would

25     be 300 by 200 metres.

Page 17704

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When Mr. Russo asked you questions about what

 2     triggered your order on the 9th, you were talking just about infantry

 3     fire.  Some remnants.  You didn't say a word about artillery; you didn't

 4     say a word about tanks.  I read it to you:

 5             "Information was received from the 4th Guards Brigade to the

 6     effect that elements of the artillery, or, rather, members of the

 7     artillery units of the 4th Guards Brigade clashed with the enemy in the

 8     area and they used infantry fire.  In other words, there were groups of

 9     enemy forces which, although routed, were still dangerous for our

10     soldiers."

11             This is a story which is certainly quite different from the

12     answers to the questions I put to you.

13        A.   Your Honour, among other things, I said, for example, that there

14     were elements, and I don't know this if this was correctly interpreted or

15     not, of soldiers who were members of artillery units as well as infantry

16     soldiers.  In other words, there was a presence of the military in the

17     area.  The observation post was also attacked by infantry fire as well.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I ask the parties whether, in the earlier answers

19     given to Mr. Russo, whether artillery or tank being used in these clashes

20     were part of the answers.

21             Could there be any translation issue?

22             I thought I would have heard of you if such an important ...

23             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, it is possible.  I -- I --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You can check that.

25             Mr. Rajcic, we have fortunately the ability to check in quite

Page 17705

 1     some detail your own words and how they were translated and how they were

 2     transcribed.  At least the way in which it was translated to the Chamber,

 3     it was just infantry fire of some remnants, which were mentioned as the

 4     event triggering your first order on the 9th.

 5             I think in your -- when I asked you about it, you were talking

 6     about intelligence as well; whereas, in your earlier answer, you just

 7     referred to information received from members of the 4th Guards Brigade.

 8             Was there any other intelligence as ...

 9        A.   Your Honour, it is very difficult to describe combat action in

10     two sentences, a day's worth of combat actions in two sentences.  The

11     fact of the matter is that between the 8th and the 9th, fighting was

12     still going on, though, admittedly, not of high intensity.  Doubtless

13     there was fighting going on and this is the sort of information that

14     reached the command post.  If I were to describe all the activities

15     taking place in that general area covering some 10 square kilometres,

16     that would be very difficult.  I'm only citing details, warranting

17     artillery fire on the 9th.  Still, if I made myself clear, what I said

18     here was that there were reasons to open fire and that there was still

19     sporadic fighting going on.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm trying to focus specifically on the -- on the

21     order given on the morning of the 9th.

22             I just put to you:  Would it have been possible that members of

23     the artillery units of the 4th Guards Brigade had a clash in the sense of

24     some of infantry fire fired at them from an unknown number of persons

25     shooting?

Page 17706

 1             Is that a possibility?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  There is one type of action in the field of

 3     artillery which is called adjustment and guidance of artillery fire in

 4     movement.

 5             In other words, the commander of the artillery unit is at the

 6     forward end of the disposition, among the infantry troops, and guiding

 7     fire from there.  To me, that comes across as a customary combat action.

 8     Whether it was indeed carried out or not, I don't know.  The information

 9     that reached me at the command post was that there were such problems and

10     attempts were made at solving the problem.  And that's quite legitimate.

11     The 4th Guards Brigade, ever since it broke through on Mount Dinara, had

12     that sort of fire guidance in movement, as it advanced.

13             Those are the forward ...

14             May I continue?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said sort of fire guidance.

16             What do you exactly mean?  Guidance given by whom?  Or by what?

17        A.   Guiding of fire is something that is done by forward spotters or

18     forward observers.  Oftentimes fire is guided by the commanders of the

19     units opening fire.  In this specific case involving the 4th Guards

20     Brigade, it was the commander of the artillery battalion of the

21     4th Guards Brigade who engaged in guiding artillery fire south of Srb.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But we read in the document that you gave the

23     order.  The 36 pieces.  And that's what I'm focussing on.  That you gave

24     the order.  So, therefore, to explain what a local commander would do or

25     would have done is beyond the focus of my question.

Page 17707

 1        A.   Your Honour, my apologies.  A local commander, or a lower level

 2     commander, as we call it, is the one who seeks support -- fire support

 3     from his superior command, along his axis of attack.  For this reason,

 4     the information reached Knin.  When we relocated the command post from

 5     Sajkovici to Knin, we received information there to the effect that they

 6     needed artillery support in that area.  That's where I come into play.

 7     My role comes to the fore.  I call the commander of the artillery group,

 8     which contains 130-millimetre guns, and we give them the assignment of

 9     providing support to the unit which found itself in difficulties.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

11             Do you remember in which way you -- what the -- what wording your

12     order was?  Because it appears on paper now as general area of Srb.

13             Was that what you told them to do?

14        A.   If I were to state now that I remember this 100 percent, it would

15     not be fair, I don't think.  The way I worked always was that one would

16     take the relevant coordinates from the map of the location and the

17     coordinates would be placed into the target -- through the target

18     analysis calculation because that is the only way we can do it.

19     Otherwise, fire cannot be opened, unless we get the X, Y, and Z

20     coordinates first.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, on paper, where in the diary usually

22     the targets are well identified, either by code or by coordinates, here

23     we find a description which is far away from such a precise description

24     of a target.

25             Do you have any explanation on why they would have written it

Page 17708

 1     down in the way they did?

 2        A.   Your Honour, this is a working document produced by the commander

 3     of the artillery group.  He would write down the initial information, the

 4     source information, out of which everything that is relevant for

 5     artillery fire is extracted.  I wasn't there when this was done.  It is

 6     said the general area of Srb.  The X, Y coordinates indicate the

 7     intersection.  What follows next is one would take the coordinates down

 8     and open fire according to the coordinates.  The way it is written now --

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

10        A.    -- it does not allow for artillery fire to be opened.  There has

11     to be the rest of the information, including the X and Y coordinates.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.

13             Just see whether I have ...

14             I have one or two more questions but we'll have them after the

15     break, because we, first, need some time.

16             We'll resume at 1.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.39 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rajcic, I have a few more questions for you.

20             Could you have a look at the list that was presented to you by

21     Mr. Russo this morning, the one we called the Jagoda list.

22             Do you have it?  And then I'd like to take you to entries 735 and

23     736, if you could try to find them.

24             Have you found them?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, I have.

Page 17709

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at these descriptions, which is "other

 2     targets," and then just the name of a village, and that's true for both

 3     735 and 736, and nothing else is found there as what type of target that

 4     would have been.  Is this kind of describing targets familiar to you, and

 5     how do I have to understand them, other than in the village or the

 6     village, as such, there is something to be targeted?

 7             I'm just wondering how this can be used and what purpose it

 8     serves.

 9        A.   Your Honours, for these targets, one would need additional

10     information and explanation.  I can say exactly what it was because I

11     know what was in Popovici, and we see the coordinates here, and this is

12     enough for an artillery person.  But as for tactical and technical

13     preparation of the goal, one would have to know whether this is a place

14     where troops have accommodation or maybe a depot, so one would need

15     additional information, and this information would be sought from

16     intelligence services, which would then have to provided confirmation as

17     to what type of target this is.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you said you would need additional

19     information, and you say:  "I can say exactly what it was that" -- it

20     seems not to be transcribed in -- "because I know what was in Popovici."

21             Could you tell us?

22        A.   Yes.  In Popovici there was a reserve contingent of the army in

23     the area of Karina.  These were forces that conducted a defence in the

24     area of the Operations Group Zadar.  I spent a lot of time there, and I'm

25     familiar with Popovici because they were frequently mentioned, and that

Page 17710

 1     is why I can say here now that this was reserve contingent of the army.

 2     And I have also added by way of explanation that if you didn't have this

 3     information, if you didn't know it firsthand, then additional information

 4     would be required.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:  "I spent a lot of time there."  When do

 6     you mean, you spent a lot of time there?

 7        A.   Well, I arrived there in early June 1993, and remained in the

 8     area, the Zadar-Sibenik area through the end of 1994, or, rather, to be

 9     more specific, until the 5th of November, 1994, when I moved on to

10     Dinara.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my understanding, Popovici being a target

12     in the area territory held by the Serbs, when was that taken by the

13     Serbs?

14        A.   It was taken by them, as far as I know, from the very start in

15     1991.  They were already there in Popovici around the Karinski [phoen]

16     sea.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, I asked -- you said, "I spent a lot of

18     time there," and when I asked you when, you said it was in early

19     June 1993.  You were then staying in Serb-held territory?

20        A.   In 1993.  No, I know this area because I served as a soldier in

21     the Benkovac barracks and I also conducted military exercises there,

22     while I was in the former JNA.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to understand.  You say, I know about it

24     because there was a -- you spent a lot of time there, and you said there

25     was a reserve force there.

Page 17711

 1             When did you learn about that reserve contingent of the army?

 2        A.   I learned that information in June 1993 that there was a reserve

 3     unit of the army of the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was in barracks, in -- how are they -- and

 5     where were they exactly located in Popovici?

 6        A.   Well, the standard practice was for them to be billeted in some

 7     school buildings or some other type of warehouse or company facilities or

 8     in private homes, if facilities of this type were not -- non-existent.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now we see that on this list often described,

10     school which are always understood which as school where there was

11     military presence, not school children; that's how I understood it.  Or

12     warehouse or -- usually you find that in a description laid out, what

13     kind of facility it was.  Even I think that the issue of what a stacionar

14     is, there couldn't be so many hospitals, I'm afraid, Mr. Russo, but,

15     please, correct me when I'm wrong, that seems to be a place where people

16     are -- where military men are housed or located and we have seen that

17     many of them were close to the confrontation lines.

18             But here I found nothing.  Where your explanation is an

19     explanation which usually comes with a corresponding description on the

20     list; whereas here it is -- it doesn't say anything.

21             Do you have any explanation for all the other targets without any

22     description?  Sometimes from the location, for example, if it says an

23     elevation, then I take it that it's a higher point of military

24     importance.  But, here, village.  What explains the absence of any

25     further details, if you know?

Page 17712

 1        A.   Your Honours, I cannot explain it because this is not a document

 2     that I produced.  This is a document produced by the intelligence organ.

 3     But, as I said, an artillery person would need to get some additional

 4     information and that is what was usually done.  That's how we actually

 5     did it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.

 7             Mr. Rajcic, have you ever been invited by the Prosecution to be

 8     interviewed prior to coming to The Hague and testifying?

 9        A.   Your Honour, do you mean today or earlier on?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Earlier, in the last, well, anything in the last ten

11     years.  Did they say, Mr. Rajcic, would you please come and talk with us,

12     we'd like to interview you.

13             Did that ever happen?

14        A.   Yes, it happened on four occasions.  The first time it was in

15     2007, when I received a phone call at home.  It was from a woman who said

16     she was a representative of the OTP of this Tribunal, this honourable

17     institution, and she asked me if we could talk and I said that I didn't

18     feel it was -- I thought it was not serious enough to -- that it was too

19     serious to conduct this type of conversation over the phone and that I

20     was prepared to do it but not over the phone.

21             On the second occasion - that was on the 21st of November, 2007 -

22     on this occasion, two investigators came to my parents' home - that's

23     where I live now - they came unannounced and asked that I appear on the

24     22nd in Sibenik for an interview.  They asked my mother to sign off on

25     the summons for my presence at this interview.  She refused.  And since I

Page 17713

 1     was not at home, when I arrived in the evening, I found this summons in

 2     the house on the table, and it was a summons for this interview.

 3             And I arrived -- and I arrived at the county court in Sibenik at

 4     around 9.30, I believe, this was.  I think I still have this document in

 5     my archives.  And my intention was to tell these gentlemen (a), that it

 6     was really inappropriate that they should come to my parents' home in

 7     this manner; and (b), that I was not prepared to answer any questions

 8     because I had placed myself at the disposal of the Defence of

 9     Mr. Gotovina, and I volunteered that I would gladly testify on their

10     behalf, if they found it was necessary.  And if this Honourable Tribunal

11     wished me to report and to come and testify in some other manner, that I

12     was prepared to, of course, respond to that.

13             Then there was another -- there was another telephone call this

14     year on the 22nd of January -- the 27th of January.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

16        A.   To the effect that the Prosecutor would like me to testify on

17     16th of February and whether I was prepared do so.  Again, I replied that

18     I had already stated how I was prepared to testify, at whose request, and

19     if this Tribunal sent a subpoena, or subpoenaed me, that then I would of

20     course appear in court.

21             This is what happened last time and it went the way it went.  And

22     then on the 4th of March this year, I received another phone call from

23     the Prosecutor at home.  They asked, they said that I should come and

24     testify again, because some new documents had been obtained --

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... that is the

Page 17714

 1     telephone you referred to earlier when asked about -- recalled whether

 2     you knew about which documents.  Or is that a different --  earlier, I

 3     think Mr. Russo asked you whether you would -- was right at the beginning

 4     of the -- is that that telephone call [Previous translation continues]

 5     ...

 6        A.   [Microphone not activated] Yes, yes.  Yes, that's the telephone

 7     call I'm referring to.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  You have explained that telephone call

 9     and it was not an invitation for an interview but rather to be recalled

10     as a witness.

11             Could you tell us, when did you agree with the Defence to make

12     yourself available as a witness?  When was that; could you tell us?

13        A.   As early as 2005, I think in January, I gave a first statement to

14     the Defence, and I also certified it, and the -- my statement had to do

15     with my recollections of the Brioni transcript, and I think that this

16     Chamber has that at its disposal.  And on this occasion, I also offered

17     to testify, if needed and when needed, on behalf of the Defence in these

18     proceedings.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for those answers.

20             I have no further questions for you.

21             Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for further

22     questions.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, they have.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Kehoe.

25             MR. KEHOE:  If I may.

Page 17715

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

 3        Q.   Mr. Rajcic, you were asked some questions by Judge Orie

 4     concerning the Bruno Milin report, P2533, concerning the shelling in the

 5     Srb area.

 6             I want to direct your attention just briefly to one of the

 7     annexes that you had previously talked about, and that is P2343.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  And if we could bring that up and I would like the

 9     English page, which I believe is 45.  I'm not certain exactly what the --

10     the -- 52 would be the B/C/S page.

11        Q.   And this is the Srb -- excuse me, this is the 4th Guards -- it's

12     the operative log-book for the 4th Guards Brigade.  I'm not certain if

13     you recall it in your annex, but I believe it was Annex 13.

14             Now, on the -- let me just pull this up on the B/C/S.  I'm

15     looking for the entry for the 8th of August at 8.05, and there's a

16     request in there that the TRS - that would be the one of the artillery

17     groups - is requested to work over Srb.

18             Do you see that, sir?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... that's a request to fire on

21     Srb, isn't it?

22        A.   Yes, that's what it says there.

23        Q.   Let's stay on this -- on this date and go down to the entry for

24     1430, later on in the day.  I think we're going to change the page in the

25     B/C/S, yeah.

Page 17716

 1             MR. KEHOE:  If we could change the page in the B/C/S to 1430.

 2     Frankly, I don't know how many -- there it is, at the top, the

 3     second-last entry.  The second-to-the-top entry on the B/C/S; it's the

 4     second from the bottom on the English.

 5        Q.   Now this reflects at 1430 that:  "Mechanics, oil and fuel wanted

 6     for captured vehicles -- captured tanks," excuse me, "and infantry combat

 7     vehicles at the point A11 (Srb)."

 8             Now, did it -- were you given information or did you get

 9     information at the time on the 8th, prior to your order on the 9th, on

10     the 8th, that there was fighting going on with the ARSK and that tanks

11     were captured -- and infantry combat vehicles were captured from the ARSK

12     during the course of that combat?

13        A.   The precise information as to the type and quantities of captured

14     vehicles and technical equipment did not reach me.  We just -- general

15     information that there were captured -- there was technical -- captured

16     technical equipment and vehicles, but I could not speak about the details

17     but that there were some vehicles and technical equipment captured.  I

18     knew of that general information, and it was immediately used in combat

19     around Bosansko Grahovo and so on.

20             So, for me, this is something that is routinely done during

21     combat.

22        Q.   You were also getting information that combat was actually taking

23     place between the HV and the ARSK on the 8th, weren't you?

24        A.   Yes, of course.  Such information always was done in coordination

25     and they were relayed as quickly as possible, depending on the

Page 17717

 1     communications equipment that we had.

 2        Q.   Let's keep going on this date and turn to the next page for the

 3     entry of 1940.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Which page in English?

 5             MR. KEHOE:  I think it would be the next -- 26?  46.  46, I

 6     think, in the English.  Yeah, that's right.

 7        Q.   1940.  Nurses' reports --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you remind of the exhibit number, Mr. Kehoe.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  This exhibit number is P2343.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  2343.  One second, please.

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   It notes that the members of the 3rd Infantry Battalion - of

13     course it's part of the 4th Guards Brigade because this is the 4th Guards

14     Brigade operative log-book - wounded in the area of Srb.  That should be

15     S-r-b as you can see in the actual on the translation, although it's

16     difficult to see.  But in Srb are Nedjo Paic and Ivan Matic.  They were

17     also lightly injured by a hand-grenade.  After he's given first aid, Paic

18     returned to his unit, whereas Matic stayed in the hospital -- stayed in

19     hospital.  Ivan Marunica was --

20             MR. KEHOE:  If can we turn the page in the English.

21        Q.   "Also hospitalised today.  He will check out tomorrow.  Gavran

22     and Lucaj have been evacuated to Split."

23             Now, was this consistent -- while you might not have the

24     specifics, was that consistent that the HV had suffered casualties in the

25     Srb area on the 8th, at the hands of the ARSK?

Page 17718

 1        A.   Yes.  And it says here in the evening hours and that's what I

 2     have already mentioned here, that there was combat, there was fighting

 3     going on.  There were casualties, and we were supposed to reach the state

 4     borders and, of course, on the next day, we were preparing for artillery

 5     preparation and so on.  So I don't want now to specify all the things

 6     that are done in situations like these.

 7        Q.   Well, it was the following morning, according to the Bruno Milin

 8     document, P2533, the TS-4 diary, that you ordered fire in the Srb area at

 9     9.30 in the morning with 36 rounds.  That's what we talked about before.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And that was -- now, I think you established before that was an

12     attempt to fire on these ARSK positions, wasn't it, and drive them back

13     and or harass them and drive them away, wasn't it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Milin, you think you noted that you didn't write this.

16     Mr. Milin doesn't have specific coordinates and Judge Orie asked you

17     questions about those coordinates.

18             I mean, were you firing pieces of artillery, T-130s, in this

19     particular circumstances without grid coordinates and without a specific

20     target?  Were you doing that?

21        A.   Mr. Kehoe, throughout the duration of the homeland war, I never

22     fired a single projectile without knowing the exact coordinates, nor did

23     the units I was in command of, ever.

24        Q.   So simply because Mr. Milin didn't write the grid coordinates

25     down one cannot conclude that there were no grid coordinates, could you?

Page 17719

 1        A.   No, nor could it have been possible to have the necessary

 2     elements for targeting, if there are no coordinates.

 3        Q.   Let us turn our attention to the next entry in the diary which is

 4     8.30, from Drvar, and you, on the -- 8.30 on the 12th of August of 1995,

 5     where 25 rounds are being fired on Drvar.

 6             Now before we get to that I would like to you look at the bottom

 7     of the rest of the page, where there are numerous notations concerning

 8     events that have taken place from the 10th through the 12th.

 9             Do you see those at the bottom of the page?  Or it should be

10     actually the --

11        A.   Yes, I can see that.

12        Q.   So the entries that we have here are not necessarily in

13     chronological order per the handiwork of Mr. Milin, are they?  Obviously.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... let us turn our attention

16     back to Drvar.  I mean, I think you mentioned both in my questioning and

17     in questioning by Judge Orie that Drvar was the headquarters of the

18     2nd Krajina Corps.  And that you fired on Drvar on 12/8/1995 at 8.30.

19             Let us turn our attention to what the response of the VRS

20     happened to be.

21             MR. KEHOE:  And if we can go to P71, which is the Split Military

22     District diary, and the date [sic] I have is 101 in the English and 62 in

23     the B/C/S.  That's P71.

24        Q.   And I'm looking at the time entry at 5.45 on the top of the page

25     on the 13th.

Page 17720

 1             Do you see that, sir, at 5.45?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... now at 5.45 on the 13th, the

 4     enemy - and this is the VRS and the ARSK - started to attack HV forces in

 5     the area of Grahovo, didn't they?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And in addition to infantry, this notation reflects that there

 8     was an artillery attack as well, doesn't it?

 9        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

10        Q.   So when you were preparing or when you were making a decision

11     with your other commanders to fire on -- on Drvar on the 12th of

12     August of 1995, were you aware that VRS was attacking and that they

13     continued to attack into the morning hours of the 13th?

14        A.   Yes.  In this part of the front line, the army of the Serbian

15     Republic of Krajina launched infantry and artillery attacks all the way

16     through to Glamoc while building up forces, the ones that I referred to

17     earlier, in Drvar.

18        Q.   The reality, Mr. Rajcic, is from the -- your entry on the

19     9th until at least the 13th of August, 1995, there was heavy fighting in

20     this border area between the HV and the combined Serb forces, wasn't

21     there?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. KEHOE:  I have nothing further, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

25             Mr. Russo, well, perhaps before, Mr. Rajcic, on the last question

Page 17721

 1     you answered that it was heavy fighting, whereas earlier you used the

 2     word "sporadic" for that area.  I'm a bit confused about your answer.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Not too long, please.  Yes?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I talked of sporadic fighting,

 6     I referred to the area west of Grahovo.  Let's take Grahovo as the centre

 7     of the area.

 8             To the east there was sporadic fighting and the HV conducted

 9     attacks against Glamoc.  Admittedly, the positions of the sides did not

10     shift, save for the Grahovo incident where I said that we lost 24 of our

11     men.  If you can visualise Drvar and Grahovo, to the west of Grahovo we

12     have sporadic fighting all the way to the state border where there was

13     Operation Storm; and to the right flank we had our forces, together with

14     the HVO, where there was continued fighting, and let me call it

15     stationary fighting, and exchanges of artillery and infantry fire.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

17             Mr. Russo.

18             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I could have P2343

19     brought up again and go to --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, perhaps I should have -- it's your

21     witness so perhaps I should have given you the first opportunity to, but

22     usually the Chamber's questions come after the re-examination.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could have page 53

25     in the B/C/S and page 45 in the English.

Page 17722

 1                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Russo:

 2        Q.   Looking at the entry for 0 -- for 8th of August, the entry that

 3     Mr. Kehoe directed your attention to, which indicates the tanks had been

 4     captured.  This happens at 1430 hours on the 8th of August, correct, and

 5     the firing that you reported or the firing that you ordered on Srb

 6     doesn't occur until 9.30 in the morning the following day?

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  Doesn't say "on Srb."  It says "Srb

 8     general area," counsel.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what it says and that's what I understood

10     Mr. Russo wanted to refer to.

11             But for your information, it was the order about the 36 pieces to

12     be fired at the general Srb area.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 36.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

15             MR. RUSSO:

16        Q.   Can you explain this to us then.  If tanks are captured in the

17     area at 1430 hours on 8th of August, what happens between then and 9.30

18     in the morning the following day?  Because if you look on the very next

19     page --

20             MR. RUSSO:  If we can go to the next page.

21        Q.   It's entries for 9.30 -- the entries for 9 August only begin at

22     noon on the 9th of August.  So this document doesn't provide us any

23     information about what happens around the time that you ordered the

24     firing.

25             So if you can tell us what happened between 1430 hours on the 8th

Page 17723

 1     of August, when the tanks were captured in the area of Srb, and when you

 2     ordered the firing.

 3        A.   If we go back to the earlier document, it says Knin 1440,

 4     captured tanks, and a supply of fuel for them was requested.

 5             The fighting continued in the direction of Srb.  At that point,

 6     on that night when the soldiers were wounded at 1940, in view of the

 7     continued fighting, the need arose for artillery preparations to be made

 8     on the following morning, and to complete the assignment as ordered.

 9             Not all the tanks and artillery pieces were left behind by the

10     enemy forces, and not in one location.  They withdrew with whatever

11     vehicles, tanks or whatever they had, and depending on the fuel they had.

12     Some of the artillery pieces were therefore transported into Bosnia.  Not

13     all were left behind in Croatia, based on the information I had.

14        Q.   Were there tanks or artillery pieces of the RSK remaining in Srb,

15     after those which were abandoned and taken by the HV forces at 1430 hours

16     on the 8th?

17        A.   I myself saw a T-34 tank in the vicinity of Otric, as well as

18     several army trucks full of ammunition.  In Srpski Klanac there was a

19     76-millimetre gun complete with ammunition but without the towing

20     vehicle.  Probably the intention was to speed up the pace of retreat and

21     to make room for soldiers to be mounted on trucks.  This is what I saw

22     personally.

23             As for the quantities that were there, you can look into the

24     files of the Split Military District, into the files listing the military

25     hardware captured during Operation Storm.

Page 17724

 1        Q.   Just to be clear, those pieces which you are indicating you

 2     personally witnessed, the T-34 tank, the army truck, ammunition, those

 3     were abandoned pieces of artillery?

 4        A.   Yes.  In the area just ahead of Srb, not in Srb proper.  As I was

 5     on my way to Srb, this was between Knin, Otric -- if you can visualize it

 6     it is easier for me because I know every inch of the ground.  All of it

 7     that was found was in the area up until the Srb pass, or Srb canyon.

 8     That's south of Srb proper along a stretch of some 10 to 15 kilometres.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. RUSSO:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Russo.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rajcic, since it appears that no one has any

14     further questions for you, this concludes your testimony in this court.

15             I would like to thank you very much for coming back to The Hague.

16     It's already the second time that you were here, and for answering the

17     questions that have been put to you by the parties.

18             You are excused.  I wish you a safe trip home again.

19             Madam Usher.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  There were a few outstanding matters.  We do not

23     really have time to deal with them.  At the same time, I would like to

24     see to what extent we could -- we could finalise them.  Perhaps without

25     coming back to court and spending a whole session on it.

Page 17725

 1             There was an issue of D1083, deals with a translation issue on a

 2     document, rules of internal organisation of the Ministry of Interior.

 3     There's still -- I don't know whether that has been resolved.

 4             Mr. Mikulicic, wasn't it you who --

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, that issue was in fact triggered by

 6     the Defence and it was on 65 ter list of the Prosecution, and I spent a

 7     lot of conversation with Mr. Waespi in order that they simply ask for the

 8     clarification of the remarks that the defendant made on it.  And,

 9     unfortunately, in this moment, I have no further information on the

10     topic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there's any progress made, perhaps the

12     Chamber could informally be updated.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, I will check with Mr. Waespi on it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there was -- yes, there was another matter, but

17     the Chamber will -- there was still an outstanding issue on the relevance

18     on the judgement issued by the municipal court of Knin in a complaint

19     matter which was instituted by -- I think by (redacted) and

20     others.  It has been tendered, I think, through Mr. Hedaraly.  The

21     Chamber will decide on the matter.  I think the main objection was

22     relevance.  It was about war damage.

23             Yes, the Chamber was informed that for Mr. Lazarevic there are no

24     requests for protective measures and that still was there to be put on

25     the record.

Page 17726

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, with the qualifier, I believe --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That there was a specific issue about his

 3     residence.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So no protective measures apart from that everyone

 6     refrains from referring in any way to the place where he resides.

 7             That's on the record.

 8             There is another matter which is primarily P2336, P2339, and

 9     P2340, are -- and let me turn into private session for one second.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17727

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

19             We adjourn until Wednesday, the 27th of May, 9.00 in the morning,

20     when the Pre-Defence Conference will be held.

21                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of May,

23                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.