1 Monday, 25 May 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 It has been a while since we were in court. We're here today.
7 But let my first ask Madam Registrar to call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Before the Defence cases start, we have given an opportunity to
12 the Prosecution to recall Mr. Rajcic. Is there anything that keeps us
13 off from starting?
15 Then, Mr. Russo, are you ready to recall Mr. Rajcic.
16 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Rajcic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, thank you for coming back a long way
22 to The Hague
23 We'll -- the Prosecution has asked to put further questions to
24 you. Before we do so, I'd like you to make a solemn declaration, the
25 same solemn declaration you made when you appeared for the first time
1 before us. The text has been handed out. Could you please make that
2 solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Rajcic. Please be seated.
6 You'll be further examined by Mr. Russo.
7 Mr. Russo, you may proceed.
8 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 WITNESS: MARKO RAJCIC [Re-called]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Examination by Mr. Russo: [Continued]
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rajcic. Nice to --
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... let me begin by asking you
15 if you are aware of what you will be testifying about here today?
16 A. In principle, yes and no.
17 Q. Maybe you could clarify for me a little bit, "in principle."
18 What do you mean?
19 A. On the 4th of March, a representative of the OTP phoned me and
20 told me that I was supposed to reappear before the Tribunal. He told me
21 that there were certain documents which I should have a look at again and
22 provide an explanation thereof.
23 On the same evening, on the Croatian TV, in a news report, I
24 heard the same thing again, that the OTP had requested that I return
25 here, in order to clear up or explain certain documents. That's why I
1 said that, in principle, generally speaking, I know what this is about,
2 although I don't know which documents are involved.
3 Q. Thank you for that explanation.
4 Mr. Rajcic, have you seen any HV artillery documents since the
5 time that you testified here before?
6 A. No, I haven't. I haven't dealt with those matters.
7 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you --
8 MR. RUSSO: If we could, please, Madam Registrar, have
9 Exhibit D1447. And if I could have the assistance of the usher, I do
10 have a hard copy for the witness, with the Court's permission. Thank
12 Q. Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise this document?
13 A. This document tells me that it's a document containing a great
14 deal of information, at a first glance, which formed part of the
15 intelligence assessment of the -- of a battlefield. I'm reading the text
16 on page 1 where it says "type of target"; then I can see that there are
17 command posts of various levels, from, let's say, a company from numbers
18 44 to 50, an infantry trench -- or an infantry squad.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are target coordinates there
21 as well, which is only customary. I can also see that the place of
22 target contains a toponym or a place name.
23 Another thing which I observe and which a customary form of such
24 a list of targets as this one, as it says in the headline, is the -- the
25 membership of a unit, whether it is part of the establishment of the
1 Split Military District, and that's where the information came from, and
2 was received by the intelligence department of the Split Military
4 Q. Mr. Rajcic, have you ever seen this particular document before?
5 A. I saw this format when I was in Zadar, where the forward command
6 post of the Split Military District was located, in the intelligence
7 department there.
8 This was a way of producing a, let's say, database of
9 intelligence assessments of the theatre of war. One such list would
10 serve to define targets that should be used by units --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, are you interested in describing on how
12 this fits into the whole system, or are you interested in hearing from
13 the witness, as you asked him twice, whether he has seen this particular
14 document before.
15 MR. RUSSO: Well, I'm actually interested in both pieces of
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's proceed. It wasn't clear from
18 your question to me.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. RUSSO:
21 Q. Mr. Rajcic, I understand that from your answer, and correct me if
22 I'm wrong, that you recognise the format of this document; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And can you say whether or not you have seen this exact document
1 A. This particular one, I didn't. It says in the headline, list of
2 targets of the Artillery Group of the 3 OG Zadar. In my view, it must
3 have been created as a matter of urgency because they were short of time.
4 In my view, it must have been made shortly before the start of the
5 operation, because such a document should not carry the headline such as
6 this one, list of targets, et cetera.
7 Q. If you look to the bottom of each page, Mr. Rajcic, will you see
8 the date as 30 July 1995
9 A. Yes, you're right. Zadar, the 30th.
10 Q. Do you have any idea, Mr. Rajcic, who drafted this particular
12 A. My assumption is that it was the intelligence department.
13 Q. And are you able to say whether this particular document was in
14 fact used during Operation Storm?
15 A. I can't state this with any certainty.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court what artillery group actually -- or the
17 designation of the artillery group which actually operated in OG Zadar
18 during Operation Storm?
19 A. If the document was used, judging by the place names or targets
20 listed here, this was the area of Artillery Group 5, pursuant to the
21 document enclosed to the main order for artillery for the -- for
22 Operation Storm.
23 Q. And if you could look at the items in the list and if you could
24 tell us, if you know, which targets from this list, TS-5 actually fired
25 at during Operation Storm?
1 A. Last time, I said in respect of Artillery Group --
2 MR. KEHOE: If I have as a clarification on that are we talking
3 about the -- at the strategic, operational or tactical level, because
4 TS-5 was firing at different targets at different times for different
6 So just for some clarification coming from counsel, would be
7 helpful, I think, for the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was phrased in a rather general
10 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm not making a distinction between the
11 different -- if he knows what it fired at for whatever reason, I'm less
12 interested in the reason than the target.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Could you please answer the question, Mr. Rajcic.
15 Perhaps you repeat it, Mr. Russo.
16 MR. RUSSO: Yes.
17 Q. Looking at the target list, Mr. Rajcic, if you are able to tell
18 us, if you know, which targets from this list Artillery Group 5 actually
19 fired at during Operation Storm?
20 A. I can't answer the question. I would have to have reports of
21 Artillery Group 5 on the activity of the group. Last time I said I
22 didn't have it. The only thing I said was that as part of artillery
23 preparation, TG-5 fired at the barracks in Benkovac, and that -- and I
24 said that was the extent of what I could say with certainty.
25 As for other targets that may have been fired at by TG-5, I have
1 no knowledge of that.
2 Q. Mr. Rajcic, in your testimony previously, you indicated that you
3 had reviewed source lists of targets in order to plan and select the
4 targets to actually be fired upon during Operation Storm?
5 Do you recall that testimony?
6 A. Yes. I said that when target lists were developed for
7 operational and strategic levels, the basis for the development of such
8 lists was a database from where the capital targets were chosen for
9 Artillery Groups 1 through 5. I'm not saying this particular document.
10 I'm saying a document, such as this one, containing a great deal of
11 information would be used for the selection of targets for that level of
13 Q. Thank you. And looking at this document, can you tell us how it
14 compares to the source lists which you actually reviewed? Can you tell
15 us what the differences between these documents are, or what the
16 similarities are, to the source lists which you actually reviewed?
17 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour. I mean, counsel has got a
18 source list. I mean, if there's going to be some comparison with this
19 document, I think it would behoove counsel to give the witness a source
20 list that it received from the Republic of Croatia
21 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness can't answer the question because he
22 hasn't got the information available, as he said before, then, of course,
23 we will hear from him, Mr. Kehoe.
24 Mr. Russo.
25 MR. RUSSO: Yes.
1 Q. Let me repeat the question, Mr. Rajcic. You've indicated that
2 you reviewed source lists in order to select the targets for
3 Operation Storm. What I'd like you to do is explain to us what the
4 differences are between the source lists that you reviewed and this
5 document you see before you. Any format differences or any other
6 differences that you can note for us that would be of significance.
7 A. When reviewing documents for the purposes of the government of
8 the Republic of Croatia
9 For Artillery Group 4, 3, was something that we could find and this we
10 couldn't find in respect of Artillery Group 5. We've established what
11 the difference was between the targets chosen from a document such as
12 this one and this particular document.
13 One cannot discern any noticeable differences. What comes to
14 mind when looking at this document, under 1 you have command post, or
15 forward command post of the 92nd Motorised Brigade, Benkovac. Let's take
16 it as a specimen or as a sample.
17 When we select targets for the purposes of artillery and rocket
18 groups from a database such as this one, this would be a capital high
19 value target for Artillery Group 5 in Zadar. When I was working with my
20 associates on this, using the same methodology we selected such high
21 value targets for all artillery rocket groups. In other words, a type of
22 target, a location of target, X, Y, Z and dimension of target if known.
23 Q. If we could move -- I'd like to look first, Mr. Rajcic, at some
24 of the anomalies in this document. If can you look at the second page of
25 the document, and this would be page 7 of the English translation in
1 e-court. And --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, I don't know whether I fully understood.
3 You said you would like to look at some of the?
4 MR. RUSSO: Anomalies.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Anomalies. Is that already if you'd just look at
6 the content of the document instead of qualifying them already, would
7 that not be the appropriate way to do it.
8 MR. RUSSO: Certainly, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
10 MR. RUSSO:
11 Q. Mr. Rajcic, you can see, if you look, the target list here jumps
12 from target number 87, on the second page, to 273. Can you explain why
13 there are numbers missing from this target list, if you know?
14 A. Without having access to the entire database, and if this indeed
15 relates to the area of Zadar, I don't know where the areas of Sibenik,
16 Sinj and other areas of the front line are. I wouldn't really dare to
17 venture giving an answer with any high certainty.
18 Q. So I take it, then, that you don't know what the 186 missing
19 targets from this list are?
20 A. No, unless I have other documents at my disposal as well. This
21 document relates only to Zadar. I referred to a database covering the
22 entire front line, from Mount Velebit
23 itself. It says "Operations Group Zadar." We had four operations group
24 in all. I would have to go through them all, leaf through them all,
25 and -- and then make a proper conclusion which would carry a degree of
2 Q. If you could please move to page 8 of your document, Mr. Rajcic.
3 MR. RUSSO: And if we could move to page 27 in the English
5 Q. You will note there, Mr. Rajcic, in the column for the source of
6 information it indicates ZP for Military District and then it says "old
7 one" in parentheses.
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you explain what that means, which old Military District is
11 being referred to there?
12 A. I don't think that this relates to the old Military District. My
13 view is that Military District in brackets "old" may refer to the fact
14 that it was an old piece of information, because there was a constant
15 flow of information in that area. I would conclude that this is an old
16 piece of information which has been around for a while. That's what I
17 would conclude by judging the document.
18 Q. And can you offer an explanation, if you know, why, as of the
19 30th of July, 1995, this -- the information on these targets had not been
21 A. I can tell you on the basis of what I know on the basis of my
22 participation in the activities in the area, target 681 comes to mind.
23 It says the other targets, Pijevcevo Brdo, target coordinates, firing
24 position ZP Stari.
25 In 1994, I took part in the development of a combat action which
1 was supposed to take part in this area and there were firing positions
2 there. You have type of target, P/ -- P, which stands for firing
3 position. My guess is that this piece of information was left in the
4 database as it was and it may have so happened that the firing position
5 was captured by the enemy. That's why it remained as such in the
7 Q. Moving back to page 2 in your original document, and that's
8 page 7, I believe, in the English translation, will you notice that --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
10 MR. MISETIC: I think there's something maybe that needs to be
11 clarified in light of the English translation of what the witness's
12 actual answer was. This is page 10, lines --
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's page 10, lines?
14 MR. MISETIC: -- 24 going into page 11, line 1.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll just read it to the witness.
16 Mr. Rajcic, if you would be -- listen carefully and see what I
17 now read to you is what you said.
18 "My guess is that this piece of information was left in the
19 database as it was and it may have happened that the firing position was
20 captured by the enemy. That's why it remained as such in the database."
21 That's the whole portion, Mr. Misetic?
22 Is this what your answer was to the -- or at least that part of
23 the answer was, or is there any inaccuracy in it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not quite. Not my entire
25 answer was interpreted.
1 In other words, the firing position, Pijevcevo Brdo was captured
2 for a while while I was a commander of the combat activities in that
3 area. The firing position was -- or had been captured there and then
4 later on that firing position was deserted. It had been left behind as a
5 potential firing position that the enemy might capture again, and as
6 such, with coordinates X and Y, it would remain within the database and
7 it did remain in the database, and now let me just expand on that a bit.
8 If need be, then we would already have preparations for the firing
9 position and we wouldn't have to carry them out all over again. And that
10 is why it had been left behind in this database as an old firing
12 MR. RUSSO:
13 Q. Referring back to page 2 of the document, Mr. Rajcic, and again
14 this is page 7 in the English translation, you will notice that beginning
15 from target number 273 going all the way to target number 661, no
16 information appears for the Z coordinate of the target.
17 Can you explain why there would be no information for the
18 Z coordinate for any of those targets?
19 A. Well, I can only assume. One of the explanations could be that
20 the source for this information considered that this was my biased
21 opinion, my own opinion, and that it was not necessary to enter that in
22 there, because in our security -- or, rather, intelligence department we
23 had artillery information based on which we could easily determine the
24 elevation of the target, if we had the X and Y coordinates. And it is my
25 assumption that for this reason, the source that -- where it says source,
1 the 34th Home Guard Regiment and the company of the 3rd Infantry
2 Battalion, left behind this box unfilled, the Z coordinate unfilled.
3 Q. Is the Z coordinate necessary --
4 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, if counsel just correct one thing in the
5 transcript. I think it came out the 34th Home Guard Regiment and I
6 believe that it is the 134th Home Guard Regiment, if I'm not mistaken,
7 that he was just talking about.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, that's right.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Because, here, in the
11 version that I have, that is missing, the -- the first couple of words --
12 the first couple of letters are missing. The copy is not very clear.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So you said 34th but you meant 134th.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Kehoe, when he said that, it would have
16 been appropriate to explore whether he meant what he said instead of
17 presenting it as mistake in the transcript.
18 MR. KEHOE: My apologies, Judge. I thought it was a translation
19 issue, and my apologies and I stand corrected.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
21 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Mr. Rajcic, is the Z coordinate necessary for accurate artillery
24 A. Yes, it is necessary.
25 Q. And can you explain to us how exactly one would go about, as you
1 indicated, discovering the Z coordinate information when it was not
2 provided by the source?
3 A. Well, this is an method. What we did is, where we had a target,
4 we would take the coordinates based on the topographical maps of various
5 scales. If it was 1:50.000, a scale of that range, then it was less
6 precise and one could determine the elevation of Z in metres. Whereas if
7 the scale was 1:25.000 of this topographic map, then the precision would
8 be higher, and once you marked the X and Y coordinates on the map based
9 equidistances on the map we would work on determining the elevation of
10 the target. If this would be between two isohypses -- or, rather, if
11 there was a equidistance between them, we would interpolate the target.
12 This would range from between 2 and a half to 5 metres, the precision
13 rate, depending on the scale of the topographic map. If the map was
14 1:50.000, if that was the scale, the 50 metre difference would
15 determine -- would be the difference. And wherefore if we had a scale of
16 1:25.000, then the precision would be up to 5 metres.
17 So any person who was dealing with and working with topographic
18 maps was trained and able to do that.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, looking at this document, Mr. Rajcic, can you
20 tell us how it compares to an official HV document? Are there any
21 markings that you would expect to find on an official document that
22 missing from this or anything like that?
23 A. What official document of the Croatian army are you referring to?
24 Do you mean an official document at a certain level, or do you mean an
25 official document of artillery? From artillery.
1 Q. Well, an official HV target list, for example, would that bear
2 any markings which are missing from this document?
3 A. No. An official document that we called a table of targets, of
4 firing targets, the form would have been somewhat different. This table
5 would be a bit different, would look different, and the content would
6 also differ.
7 The number that appears in the first column is the same, and then
8 the type of target, X, Y and Z, and the dimensions of the target. The
9 source would not be entered on a target list, nor would we enter this
10 heading "can be observed" or unit goal, and I am here referring to a
11 table of targets that was used by artillery units.
12 Q. And in a table of targets which would actually be used during an
13 operation, would the targets bear code numbers and not simply numbers?
14 A. Both could be possible. The table of targets in itself would be
15 coded for reasons of confidentiality, at least before the -- an operation
16 begins. And then the numbers could be serial. They could be marked in
17 this manner or in some other way. But in any case, it would depend on
18 the level of the unit, whether this was the lowest level tactical unit, a
19 platoon, battery, or division, and then, as you go up, you would -- you
20 would enter some additional information, such as the azimuth, the base
21 direction for firing, and such things.
22 A list of targets of this type that we have before us, I assume
23 that this was just an additional document that was used for the
24 Artillery Group 5 [Realtime transcript read in error "35"] and not 3, as
25 it says here, so that in the course of combat, at the request of the
1 units to which the support was provided, one could act fast and have
2 ready all the elements necessary for firing.
3 I think I've went a bit beyond your question in my answer.
4 Q. That's fine. I do appreciate the explanation.
5 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, I have no further questions with
6 respect to this particular document. However, I do have another document
7 to put to the witness. I don't know if the Court wishes to address
8 additional questions on this document before moving on to the next one.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one question. I noticed that in the
11 list the width and depth of the target is never specified, just an X.
12 Was that common and what is the -- let me first ask you whether this is
13 the ordinary way of describing the target dimensions.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for us artillery men,
15 it is normal to have -- it is -- to have a dimension of a target and this
16 is not common practice, so I don't know why these Xs are entered here,
17 and no dimensions of target were provided because it could have been
18 pretty well defined.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you further explain, what exactly means the
20 column "Number of targets in unit"? What do you exactly understand by
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the targets for a certain unit
23 should be entered here in the area or swath of responsibility where that
24 unit is engaged in combat operations to the left or right of the superior
1 Within this area, there would be various types of targets, at
2 various depths, tactically and operationally. And here, there should be
3 an indication of the number of units, for this let's call it X unit --
4 number of targets.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or in this particular case, for
7 instance, the 111th HV Brigade, it should also indicate the number of
8 targets for that unit at the tactical and operational level.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I must admit that it is not yet entirely clear to
11 So you say it's the total number of targets within the -- that
12 could be engaged by that unit? And then you're talking about your units,
13 not enemy units. Is that correctly understood?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I always mean the enemy
15 targets. We don't have targets within our own units. These units are on
16 the other side, at the enemy side. These targets --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- are on the other side, the enemy
19 side, and we would obtain the depth and width of the target and for that
20 unit there would be a target assigned.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it is the number of targets that were
22 identified in relation to the enemy units.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And they are indicated as
24 such within the unit.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Now, if I would take you, for example, to entry 491, and that is
2 after a missing 30 numbers on the list, 491 and following.
3 Have you found it?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: There -- 491 and following, they're all, as far as
6 the enemy unit is concerned is the 92nd Motorised Brigade and the
7 numbers, although not with a huge range, they're all different. How do I
8 have to understand? I'm afraid that I'm still not fully ... I mean, it
9 is 147, 128, 149, 159, and if these are targets identified in the enemy
10 unit, then what exactly explains the -- have you found it? I see that
11 you're still ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, I am on
13 page 4. And if I understood you correctly, I'm looking at number 491.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm looking at the last column, it looks as if
15 the enemy unit is the same in 491, 492, and that goes on until 499.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Although the numbers in the last column are not the
18 same and I may therefore have not fully understood what this entry is and
19 what explains the different numbers, although we are talking the same
20 enemy unit.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we look at 491 and
22 see that the command of the brigade is in Benkovac, that this is the
23 Slobodan Macura barracks, and that that -- the source of information is
24 the 7th Home Guards Regiment, and that this is within the area of
25 responsibility of the 7th Home Guards Regiment, and that on the other
1 side we have the 92nd Motorised Brigade.
2 In my view, 147 indicates the number of the artillery target for
3 the 7th Home Guards Regiment. Each unit had their own lists of targets,
4 their tables of targets and their plan of fire, and they indicated those,
5 the targets, with their own numbers and this was coordinated in
6 coordination with their neighbour on the left and on the right flank, and
7 this was done in order to avoid the overlapping of targets, which means
8 that the same number could be used for two different targets; in this
9 case there would be confusion. But in this way, we have the
10 7th Home Guards Regiment designating this as their own target
11 designation, which is number 147, which does not necessarily mean that
12 this is the -- this would be the same designation, the same target for
13 the Artillery Group 5.
14 So the same number does not mean that they have the same
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So number, therefore, is the number within
17 their lists. I now -- I think I better understand.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that would be on the target
19 list of the 7th Home Guards Regiment of the Croatian army.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I may have been confused and perhaps that
21 could be -- an interpretation matter. Number of targets, I expect that
22 to be a number, 10, 20, 50; whereas a number of a target on a list, then
23 I would expect, as a matter of fact, that the singular rather than the
24 plural. But I'm desperately looking at the parties to assist me in
25 understanding what -- how you understood this.
1 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President, I mean, this can be checked but
2 in the original it says number -- it's the singular, target, not
3 targets --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. MISETIC: -- in the original. And in the interpretation --
6 in the translation it was translated in the plural.
7 So it should be target number in the unit. Or number of target
8 in the unit, not targets in the unit.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if we find, therefore, I'm sorry,
10 Mr. Rajcic, to --
11 For example, numbers 504, 505, then it apparently is the
12 closeness, looking at the coordinates, which explains why they have the
13 same number.
14 Is that how I have to understand this --
15 MR. MISETIC: Or the communications post is within the building
16 that's -- in other words, 505 could be located within 504.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, without any width or --
18 MR. MISETIC: Sorry. Yes, you're right.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The coordinates are not exactly the same --
20 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- and if we do not know the width or the ...
22 Okay. I'm just trying to understand what is ...
23 Mr. Rajcic, first of all, thank you for clarifying the issues and
24 the parties have further assisted me. I was a bit misled perhaps by the
25 plural which --
1 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. MISETIC: There is one issue, just for the interpretation,
4 and it's page 16, line 10.
5 JUDGE ORIE: 16, line 10. Then I have to go back to the ...
6 MR. MISETIC: It's the --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just find it. One second.
8 MR. MISETIC: It's the number in line 10. I believe --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not there yet. One second, please. 16, 10.
10 Yes, I've got it in front of me.
11 Yes, could we ... you said at a certain moment -- and please
12 complete what is may be missing or which is not incorrect. I read part
13 of your answer.
14 And it was a question about code numbers. At a certain moment
15 you said:
16 "A list of targets of this type that we have before us, I assume
17 that this was just an additional document that was used for the Artillery
18 Group 35 and not 3 as it says here. So that in the course of combat, at
19 the request of the units to which the support was provided, one could act
20 fast and have ready all the elements necessary for firing."
21 Is there anything not accurate in a portion of the answer I just
22 read to you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood this properly, it
24 is not Artillery Group 35. That is something that seems illogical here.
25 And if I said that, I apologise. I said that the Artillery Group 3, the
1 Operations Group Zadar, should have in fact been Artillery Group 5,
2 because this was an auxiliary means for fast action.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That clarifies the issue. And is also in line with
4 my recollection. Whether translation or transcribing issue, it has been
5 corrected now.
6 Let me just see whether I have any ...
7 No, if I have any further questions I will keep them for a later
9 Mr. Russo.
10 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could just ask that
11 we have revised translation uploaded to indicate the correct designation
12 for the final column which Your Honour questioned about. I assume that
13 is not going to be a --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that it avoids further --
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. RUSSO: Thank you. If we could please have 65 ter 7160. And
17 if I could have the assistance of the court usher, I also do have a hard
18 copy of that document for the witness.
19 Q. Mr. Rajcic, do you recognise this particular document?
20 A. Yes. I saw this document while I was selecting documents for the
21 purposes of the government of the Republic of Croatia
22 Q. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber what this document
24 A. This is a war diary or a war log-book of the commander of a -- an
25 artillery group. It sets out the dynamics of actions as they played out
1 in his particular unit.
2 Q. Can you tell us which artillery group this relates to?
3 A. Artillery Group 4.
4 Q. If you could look at page 2 of the document, and that's the same
5 in the English version in e-court, at the entry for 1100 hours, and it
6 lists you as the individual reporting. And it indicates the turning of
7 two 130-millimetre guns.
8 Do you recall reporting or ordering the turning of those guns
9 for TS-4?
10 Sorry, Mr. Rajcic, we need a verbal answer.
11 A. Yes, yes. I remember that very well.
12 Q. And if you could move along to page 6 in the document. That's
13 also the same page in the English version. Page 6 at the entry for
14 0915 hours.
15 And this is an entry which is 0915 hours on 5 August. And it
16 again lists you as the person reporting and simply states Ocestovo,
17 times 5 pieces.
18 Can you recall your involvement with that particular entry?
19 A. I apologise, page 6 in my batch of documents, doesn't contain the
20 entry. I have a different type of numeration. One page was skipped. I
21 have 2, 3 -- or, rather, followed by 4, 5, 6. Page 3 is missing.
22 Q. My apologies there's actually -- it's page 6 in the e-court
23 version. It actually says page 5 at the bottom of the one that I'm
24 looking for for you. Because it appears that the actual third page has
25 not been numbered, so there has been a number skipped in the actual
1 numbering in the handwriting.
2 A. At 9.15, Marko Rajcic, Ocestovo, 5 pieces. Is that what we're
3 referring to?
4 Q. Yes, it is.
5 Can you explain that entry for us?
6 A. This means that on that date, there was fighting. I was in
7 direct contact with Artillery Group 4 and in the area of Ocestovo, there
8 was fighting going on, and the unit engaged in infantry combat was
9 supposed to receive support from a 130 gun because 203 Howitzers from
10 Artillery Group 4 did not have this particular location in their range.
11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what exactly the target was in
12 Ocestovo that you ordered the firing on?
13 A. This was the road from Kistanje to Stara Straza. Perhaps a
14 kilometre and a half ahead of an intersection from Stara --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't catch the name of the
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to Padjene.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the semi-last location you
19 referred to. The interpreters couldn't hear you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ocestovo is a larger area across
21 which the Kistanje-Stara Straza road runs. The location which was fired
22 at along the road was, according to what I can remember now, a kilometre
23 and a half away from an intersection of roads from -- of the road from
24 Stara Straza to Padjene.
25 MR. RUSSO:
1 Q. And can you tell the Chamber why you fired on that particular
2 location, the one kilometre from the intersection?
3 A. Based on the information from the field, the enemy was pulling
4 out, together with their military hardware. The assessment was that in
5 the area of Padjene, they would be setting up their second defence line.
6 The goal of the fire was to make it impossible for the enemy to possibly
7 set up another defence line in the area of Padjene in an organised
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. RUSSO: If we could move to page 8. That's the same in
12 Q. That is, the number 7 will appear on the bottom of that page in
13 your handwritten version, Mr. Rajcic.
14 And at the entry for 0930 hours on 9 August, it lists you as
15 reporting the firing of 36 130-millimetre shells at the general area of
16 Srb. And I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber what exactly
17 it was you were firing at at that particular time.
18 A. In the general area of Srb, at an intersection of roads between
19 Licki Petrovac or -- I will have to think about the location. This was
20 an intersection of roads in Srb; to the east was Licka Kaldrma, and to
21 the left, there was a road leading to the springs of the river Una. That
22 was Donji Lapac, yes. It was Donji Lapac.
23 Q. Can you tell us why exactly you were firing 36 shells at that
24 particular area?
25 A. For the same reason as before. It is only customary when the
1 enemy's pulling out with military hardware in combat that one should make
2 sure that the enemy is prevented from organising a defence and putting up
3 resistance, which may lead to further casualties and materiel damage.
4 Q. Did you have information at the time that the enemy was in fact
5 attempting to set up a defence line, or is this more of a preventative
7 A. Information was received from the 4th Guards Brigade to the
8 effect that elements of the artillery -- or, rather, members of the
9 artillery units of the 4th Guards Brigade clashed with the enemy in the
10 area, and they used infantry fire. In other words, there were groups of
11 enemy forces which, although routed, were still dangerous for our
13 Q. Thank you. You'll see the very next entry on that page, which is
14 for the date of 12 August, indicates your ordering the firing of
15 25 shells of 130-millimetre cannon at Drvar. And I would like you to
16 please explain to the Court why you ordered that firing.
17 A. The intelligence assessments we had at the time indicated that,
18 from the direction of Drvar, a counterattack would be launched against
19 our forces in the area of Bosansko Grahovo. That was the intelligence we
20 received, and the intelligence came from various sources and was obtained
21 in various means, indicating that the enemy forces in Drvar were
22 regrouping and building up with possibly engaging in a counterattack.
23 The counterattack did in fact take place, and in the area of
24 Bosansko Grahovo, we had 24 soldiers killed. This particular action had
25 the following goal: Between Bosansko Grahovo and Drvar into the depth of
1 the enemy, artillery fire was supposed to use -- to be used in order to
2 stop the enemy from advancing, and in order to allow us to organise
3 ourselves properly and engage in proper defence.
4 Q. Mr. Rajcic, can you tell us what exactly in Drvar was fired at by
5 TS-4 on your command?
6 A. The road intersection. The lay of the ground on which Drvar sits
7 is such that it allows only for two good quality manoeuvre exits for the
8 forces; that's Bosansko Grahovo and Bosanski Petrovac. It was these
9 particular roads, exit roads, that we controlled with our fire, in order
10 to prevent, disturb and harass the enemy in their attempt to pass along
11 the same road.
12 Q. If you could move to the third page that you have there, the one
13 which actually doesn't have a number at the bottom. It's the third page
14 in e-court as well.
15 There's an entry for 1520 hours which states: "Vlahov, T-130 for
16 OG Sinj."
17 Can you tell the Trial Chamber, if you know, what that refers to?
18 A. Since I'm quite familiar with the entire area where we engaged in
19 combat, this means that the communication went through the then chief of
20 artillery for Operational Group North. The Operations Group Sinj was
21 supposed to receive support on the orders of the commander of the
22 Sinj Operations Group. Unless I'm mistaken, this was within the area of
23 responsibility of the 6th Home Guard Regiment, Biocici. This was
24 supposed to be done according to the coordinates that were entered. In
25 other words, the newly arisen target -- or, rather, in other words, this
1 had to do with a target that had arisen as combat went on.
2 Q. And because it was a newly arisen target, is that why we find the
3 actual coordinates written into the diary at that point?
4 A. Yes, precisely so. If there is no numerical designation, and if
5 is not contained in the target list, this was the proper form in which
6 newly arisen targets would be entered into a document of this sort.
7 Q. Thank you. And staying on that same page, looking at the entry
8 for 1545 hours, it states that: "One shell in the middle of T-130 gun
9 carriages. No one injured."
10 Do you recall Artillery Group 4 taking a shell hit during the
12 A. Yes. And not just here. This was for the second time, I
13 believe, that it involved Artillery Group 4. We had another similar
14 situation on the first day that the enemy engaged Artillery Group 4. I'm
15 familiar with this particular event, because I would receive timely
16 information on events such as this one.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rajcic. You have indicated that you've both
18 reviewed this document in the past for your work for the Government of
20 Artillery Group 4.
21 Is there anything that you found in this document that does not
22 correspond to your recollection of events during Operation Storm?
23 A. If we are discussing matters that do not tally with the report of
24 Artillery Group 4, I can tell you that while I was reviewing documents at
25 my disposal, I observed a difference between the number of times
1 Artillery Group 4 opened fire and the requests addressed to
2 Artillery Group 4 from the Sibenik Operations Group. The numbers didn't
3 tally there.
4 In my report, the document that I produced, by way of a
5 confirmation of the work I did, I made a note of the fact that there were
6 discrepancies as to how many times and at what intervals Artillery
7 Group 4 opened fire, as compared to the number of requests it received to
8 open artillery fire.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. RUSSO: And if we could please show the witness
11 Exhibit P2341.
12 Q. Mr. Rajcic, looking at the screen, is this the document, the
13 report to which you were referring where you noted the discrepancies
14 between the requests and the reports of Artillery Group 4?
15 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour. This was not notified that
16 we were going to go into this document. We had numerous conversations
17 and e-mails over the past week, and, as a matter of fact, I was informed
18 in no uncertain terms by Mr. Russo very adamantly on Friday that he was
19 going use two documents.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
21 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, I'm not actually going to use the
22 document. I didn't realise that the witness was going refer to this.
23 I'm just trying to confirm that this is the report to which he is
24 referring that he has already provided the information.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The witness said something about reporting.
1 If, Mr. Russo, if that's the purpose question, just to identify
2 when he talked about reporting whether he was referring to this report
3 without going to the content of it, then it would clarify and would not
4 put you in a difficult position, because we would just better understand
5 what his answer was.
6 MR. KEHOE: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. It may be very well given
7 that that I have go back into this but I have to take a look at it at the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Russo, so your question to the witness was ...
11 Please repeat it.
12 MR. RUSSO:
13 Q. Mr. Rajcic, looking at the document on the screen, is this the
14 report to which you were just referring a moment ago?
15 A. Yes. This is a part of the report on page 1, and that's what I
16 did, yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, at this time I would move for the
19 admission of 65 ter 7160. That's the --
20 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections from the other Defence
23 Madam Registrar, that would be number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. I do have no further
3 questions for the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think the best thing to do is to have a break
5 now and then continue after the break.
6 Could I receive estimates from the parties, now knowing what the
7 examination-in-chief has been.
8 MR. KEHOE: I will probably be about two hours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Two hours.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: And as it refers to Markac Defence -- I'm sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Higgins was on her feet. If you would not
12 object, Mr. Mikulicic.
13 MS. HIGGINS: Very briefly, Your Honour, no questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic.
15 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, my apologies for not being polite and
16 especially towards a lady.
17 I wouldn't expect more than 30 minutes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which means that there's a fair chance that we
19 would finish this morning.
20 We'll have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I take it that the Defence has seen the
24 decision --
25 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the Chamber last Friday --
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- which may have an impact on --
4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- what we expect to you do, or what you are -- what
6 you will question the witness about.
7 Mr. Rajcic, you will now be cross-examined or further examined by
8 Mr. Kehoe, who is -- well, you know Mr. Kehoe is counsel for
9 Mr. Gotovina.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, just before I proceed. With regard to
12 P2533, I did not object before. There are a few word changes in that
13 document. That's the Milin diary. I can sit down with counsel and
14 resolve it. There are a couple of words missing but there's nothing of
15 any major consequence, but I just want to mention that before I proceed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll hear the outcome of your
17 conversations with Mr. Russo.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe: [Continued]
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rajcic. Mr. Rajcic, we were talking --
22 A. Good morning to you too.
23 Q. You were talking this morning with Mr. Russo about the list of
24 targets that you had where it notes at the top TS-3, that's D1447. And
25 TS-3 was -- at the time of Operation Storm was TS-5. Is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, during the course of your testimony this morning, you
3 mentioned a database and in fact in your -- I'm just corrected. Just so
4 I clarify that it was renamed TS-5 at the time. So it was TS-3 and then
5 it was renamed TS-5; that's right? Yes, you have to say --
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Now, during the course of your testimony this morning and in your
8 prior testimony, and this is at page 16.329 at line 2, you talked about
9 the production of a database for various targets. Do you recall that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And one of the individuals who assisted greatly in the production
13 of that database was a Mr. Marijan First; isn't that right?
14 A. Marijan First, yes.
15 Q. Pardon my pronunciation, Marijan First.
16 A. [In English] Okay.
17 Q. And Marijan First was -- what was he in the scheme of things?
18 A. [Interpretation] He was my assistant. In operational terms, he
19 was the assistant for artillery.
20 Q. Let us a look a little bit and explore this database and this
21 is -- this was a database that had been compiled with information over a
22 significant period of time, was it not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let me -- if I can show you a hard copy and -- as well as hand
25 some out to the Chamber and counsel.
1 If I can direct your attention to 1D00-1062.
2 MR. KEHOE: And for the purposes of clarification, Mr. President,
3 there was a document that was given to the Office of the Prosecutor by
4 the Republic of Croatia
5 Q. Mr. Rajcic, if you could take a look at this particular document.
6 And it's in an A-3 form.
7 Do you recognise this format, sir?
8 A. Well, yes. This is the format that was used whenever this was
9 computer processed. A-3 and A-4 were the usual formats.
10 Q. Now, this is -- as opposed to the document that we looked at this
11 morning that Mr. Russo gave you, which was listed by ordinals numbers, 1
12 through -- certainly there were some gaps in it, but 1 through, I
13 believe, 87. This is a listed by coordinate values, isn't it? And
14 coordinate values being the Y, X, Z coordinates.
15 A. Yes. I should actually take a look and see whether it was in the
16 normal order as things as the targets were distributed. If we have, for
17 instance -- if we look at the first one, the 6th and 7th coordinates, we
18 can see that both X and Y are increasing or incrementally or they should
19 be decreasing. That's the normal order of things.
20 Q. And this is to compare these various targets to prevent
21 duplication and see if the various reporting agencies were talking about
22 the same target, wasn't it?
23 A. Well, yes, in any case, each target has its precise coordinates,
24 and that's the only coordinates they can be. They can't be different.
25 The only thing is we can designate three different numbers for three
1 different users. But the coordinates are always the same.
2 Q. Now, as we look at this, I mean, we have sources of information
3 over in the second-to-last column, and those entities are the entities
4 that are reporting to you the particular targets in that area. For
5 instance, on page 1, it's the 134th.
6 A. Yes, the Home Guard Regiment.
7 Q. We'll get into a little bit more of a comparison with this as it
8 related to the list we talked to this morning. But I'd like to talk
9 about some general topics first.
10 And if you could just look at this document and just page through
11 it with your eye on the operative group at the top of the page, and I do
12 believe that the first ten pages of this document reflects that these are
13 targets with their coordinate values for Operative Group Zadar.
14 Do you see that? Look at the top of the page for the first
15 ten pages. It may actually be 11 pages. Ten? Ten.
16 They're all for OG Zadar, right?
17 A. Yes, Operations Group Zadar. And as for the target, judging by
18 it, I recognise this area, and I claim that it is -- it was in the area
19 of the Zadar Operations Group.
20 Q. Now, if we continue on to -- from pages 11 to 12 we have a
21 listing of targets for Operative Group Sinj.
22 A. Yes, I can see it.
23 Q. Okay. And then, lastly, from pages 13 to 18, we have a series of
24 targets for Operative Group Sibenik.
25 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. Now I just note by way of clarification, in this entire document
2 if we look at the lower right-hand corner, this document is prior to the
3 document that you reviewed this morning, D1447, as it is dated
4 12 April 1995
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes. Yes, I can see it.
7 Q. Now, this document indicates that these three operative groups
8 had these targets within their geographical area, doesn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, this morning, you were asked a question by Mr. Russo, and if
11 I can just point to the area, and we noted in -- we don't have to flip
12 back for it. In D1447 there was a gap between - and this is the ordinal
13 number - between 87 and 2737. Do you recall that, sir? That's on the
14 second page of your document that Mr. Russo was talking to you about this
16 A. Yes, I see it.
17 Q. Now let us turn back to the large A-3 document that we discussed
18 previously and let us go to, if we can, the first page of OG Sinj, and
19 that would be on the right upper right-hand corner, 06397160, and you see
20 in that page alone there are any number of numbers between 87 and 273.
21 Do you see that? That's at page --
22 A. Just a moment. Just a moment, please. Operative Group Sinj, I
23 see 470, and then on the first page, 125. No, I don't have that part
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... let me backtrack just a bit
1 and maybe I just went a bit too quick -- too quickly.
2 We talked this morning about a gap between target number 87 and
3 target number 273, and just an attempt to -- to look at why in the
4 OG Zadar Group there is a gap in those numbers. Let's just begin by
5 looking at the OG Sinj numbers.
6 MR. KEHOE: That would be page 11 in the B/C/S. And page 28 in
7 the English.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but for Operative
9 Group Sinj, I see pages 1 and 2, not 11 and 12. And for Operative Group
10 Zadar, I have 10.
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. Okay, but just stay with that -- just stay with that page. The
13 first group on Sinj.
14 Okay. Now in that first page of Operative Group Sinj, you see
15 many numbers in the right hand -- in the left-hand column between 87 and
16 273, do you not?
17 A. Well, I have to intervene again. That's not what it says here.
18 I see a series of 470, but these numbers are not in sequence.
19 Q. Exactly. Now, they're not in sequence but if you go down the
20 list of those numbers, for instance, if we go to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,
21 9, the ninth one down, it has number 126. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now 126 is, of course, we don't -- there's not a question on
24 this, of course it's between 87 and 273. So when you look at the gap in
25 this document, it would indicate to you that some of those targets
1 between 87 and 273 were for targets for other operative groups other than
2 Zadar, weren't they?
3 MR. RUSSO: Objection, Mr. President. I think there's a missing
4 foundation. This -- perhaps the witness should remove his ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take off your earphones for a second.
6 Mr. Russo.
7 MR. RUSSO: I'm not certain that it has been established or yet
8 put to the witness that the numbers which are on this document are in
9 fact the numbers which are missing from the document which we looked at
10 previously. The witness testified during direct examination that he
11 didn't know what those targets were. And so to now put this to him --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to be very practical in this respect.
13 What you apparently want to establish, Mr. Kehoe, is that the
14 missing numbers are not in the same operative group and we find them
15 somewhere else.
16 MR. KEHOE: That's the sum and substance of it, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's try to do that. First of all, what one
18 could do is to look at the numbers. I tried to find, for example, some
19 of the numbers on this list and they were all missing on the other one
20 but this is, of course, only a -- I'm talking about Sinj. This is, of
21 course, I haven't had any opportunity to do it systematically.
22 May I take it that you have done that systematically?
23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Are there any numbers which appear both in
25 the Sinj list and in the Zadar list?
1 MR. KEHOE: I can tell you I didn't find any.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't find any.
3 MR. KEHOE: And I will go back and look more thoroughly, but I do
4 not believe so.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Because it would give us information on two levels.
6 First, if we do not find any, that there's a fair chance that the lists
7 perhaps not for the full 100 percent but are complimentary.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's one. Second, if we would find one,
10 then, of course, we could look at the description of the target which
11 would give us some information as to whether we are talking about the
12 same thing. It could still be coincidence that the numbers do not match,
13 but if we would find -- well, let's say, 487 saying firing position and
14 if in the other we would find 487 being a bunker with different
15 coordinates, then -- so, therefore, to a large extent, this information
16 can be obtained from these documents --
17 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- not by me and not in three minutes. But by the
20 Mr. Russo, I take it that you -- while that your concerns that
21 we're trying to establish what these two lists can tell us, even if it
22 has not been established, Mr. Kehoe, also let's ask whether the witness
23 knows anything about it. If not, then, of course, it would be an
24 analysis rather than obtaining factual information from the witness.
25 Isn't it?
1 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Judge. Just one clarify -- if the witness
2 knowing anything about ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if he would know about this numbers and then
4 you could point 15 and then say 119, I see it or I don't see it. But if
5 he has no personal knowledge, then I think our analysis, just
6 mathematical approach, what do we find on the one, what do we find on the
7 other. Is there any overlap; if there's not an overlap, that at least
8 makes it -- increases the likelihood of the lists being supplement --
9 supplemental to each other.
10 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If we do find them to see what then the list tells.
12 So you if you would please focus on what the witness knows and --
13 well, it might --
14 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President, if I can -- I was just
15 informed by one of my colleagues who did do the list there is no overlap.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There's not, okay.
17 MR. KEHOE: The second issue --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good. And that's -- Mr. Russo, you can -- you may
19 have all the time to verify that.
21 MR. KEHOE: That the -- the second issue is I didn't want to
22 limit this to just OG Sinj. If we look back at OG Sibenik, those targets
23 also fill in some of the gaps that are in the OG -- the OG Zadar list
24 that we had this morning, D1 --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Also no overlap?
1 MR. KEHOE: Correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it's comparing lists -- if the witness
3 knows anything about it, of course, please ask him. If he doesn't know
4 that much about it, let's focus on our analysis.
5 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Going back to --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Russo, may I take it that this more or less
10 addresses your concerns as well?
11 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. Now, just going back and looking at this. You're familiar this
14 type -- I'm sorry.
15 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I think he is having audio
17 THE WITNESS: It's okay.
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Rajcic, are you familiar with this type of
20 formatting in this type of list that was put together by Mr. First and
21 the people in the intelligence area?
22 A. [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any interpretation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, if you could assist the witness. Is he
24 on the right channel.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajcic, can now hear me in a language that you
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
5 MR. KEHOE:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Rajcic, I had just previously asked you are you familiar
7 with this type of document with the formatting, as it is before you, that
8 was put together by Mr. First and the individuals in the intelligence
10 A. Yes, it is familiar.
11 Q. Now let me just, if I can, for one moment just briefly go through
12 some of these documents and we if look back at -- and we don't need --
13 MR. KEHOE: We can bring it back up on the screen, which is the
15 Q. It's the list that we were talking about this morning. And we
16 just look at number 694.
17 I'm sorry, it was D1447, I'm sorry. If we go to list -- if we go
18 and where you see 694, that would be page 27 in the English and 8 in the
20 We see a barracks there. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Okay. And if we just compare that particular item with the
23 previous document that we were talking about, and if you can turn to --
24 MR. KEHOE: And this is it 1D00-1062.
25 Q. And we look for 694, and that would be on page 6 of the English
1 and page 3 of the B/C/S. At the top of the page. We did this for ease,
2 if you can.
3 Now, if you compare both of those, and it is also true of 695,
4 both of those entries in the document that Mr. Russo showed you this
5 morning, D1447 and this document, has the same entry and the same
6 numbers, doesn't it?
7 A. Yes. Yes, they do.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the only difference in this
9 entire list and the way it is formatted is -- is the listing by X, Y, Z
10 coordinates, the coordinate values as opposed to the ordinal numbers on
11 left-hand side?
12 A. Y coordinate.
13 Q. Yes.
14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we will offer into
15 evidence 1D00-1062.
16 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1459.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. Now, Mr. Rajcic, I'd like to continue ask you some questions
22 about the document that we were reviewing with Mr. Russo, D1442, and I
23 would like to just discuss with you some of your testimony and some of
24 the maps that you did on Benkovac. You will see it in a second but we
25 have attempted to overlay your markings on an exhibit with the targets as
1 listed in D1442.
2 MR. KEHOE: And if we can go to 1D00-1138.
3 Mr. President, what we have here and I -- just by way of
4 explanation is, and we will just start with the first document that comes
5 up on the screen. What you will see is P2327, which is the map of
6 Benkovac, as marked by Mr. Rajcic back on 19 February 2009, at
7 pages 16.306, line 15, through 16.312, line 17.
8 And what we have done, Mr. President, is overlay that particular
9 item with the coordinates from the Jagoda list, which is the -- D1447.
10 And as we move sequentially through this, we have done it for
11 Benkovac, Obrovac, and Gracac.
12 If we can do the first one first, please.
13 Q. Now, as you can see, the green markings -- or the -- the circles
14 are the circles that you made, Mr. Rajcic, and the green markings are the
15 grid coordinates -- and the blue markings, I take it, the grid
16 coordinates from the list, D1447?
17 Do you see that, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the marks that you had, that you put on this document when
20 you were being examined by Mr. Russo were markings you took from your
21 recollection as targets that you recall were fired upon in Benkovac; is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes. The general area where the barracks, the police station,
24 and the intersection were. The question was where the barracks was,
25 whether I remembered where the police station was, and I was asked which
1 other targets were planned to be targeted by Artillery Group 5 in
2 Benkovac, in Benkovac proper, and in the outskirts of Benkovac.
3 Q. And you did that based on recollection without actually looking
4 at the specific grid coordinates that you now have before you that were
5 taken from this D1442; isn't that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, let me just clarify one thing with these targets and we'll
8 go into this a little bit differently.
9 The targets that you are talking about are targets that are being
10 fired upon at a Military District level, targets that you want fired upon
11 at a Military District level. Is that right?
12 A. It is correct to say that they were planned to be fired upon, not
13 the ones that were fired upon.
14 Q. I understand. And that's you plan ahead of time so you don't
15 have to do the geometry during the course of combat; isn't that right?
16 A. Yes. There is a methodology of preparations to be made for
17 combat, depending on the season, depending on whether the hardware was
18 supposed to be repaired, and the like.
19 Q. Now, in addition to targets that you had at the Military District
20 level, if we look at the list that Mr. Russo was talking about this
21 morning, there are numerous targets that are listed there that are
22 tactical targets, aren't there, that battalions and brigades would fire
23 upon at a tactical level; isn't that right?
24 A. Yes. If the markings in blue indicate the contents of the list,
25 then this was intended for the operations level.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he said about the
2 tactical level.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat what you said about the
4 tactical level so that the interpreters can catch it.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The targets marked in blue, if my
6 understanding of what Mr. Kehoe said is correct, were taken from this
7 list that I have before me, and they were targets located in the general
8 area of Benkovac. When selecting targets and choosing the unit that
9 would fire upon them, then, what was set aside for Artillery Group 5 is
10 set aside for operational level, whereas all the other targets were at
11 the tactical level and they were the responsibility of the unit which was
12 designated to fire upon them, if the unit decides that it is necessary to
13 open fire.
14 MR. KEHOE:
15 Q. And, Mr. Rajcic --
16 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, counsel.
17 MR. RUSSO: I just need to make a clarification. It is uncertain
18 to me if the witness -- he keeps saying "if my understanding of what
19 Mr. Kehoe says -- if this is correct." I'm not sure if the witness is
20 saying this is what is actually the case or his understanding if that's
21 what's being put to him. I'm not clear about that.
22 MR. KEHOE: I think the answer is clear but I will do --
23 endeavour to talk about firing at a tactical level.
24 Q. Now the decision to fire at a tactical level is being made by
25 lower level commanders, isn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, if we can just turn to the next slide. And for
3 clarification purposes, again we are dealing with Benkovac.
4 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, we did this for clarity purposes so
5 Your Honours will see the area from Google Earth where these targets are
6 on the grid coordinates, so ...
7 If we can move to the slide which is -- again, we have done the
8 same thing and we're talking now about the Obrovac area. And the circles
9 that you have -- and, again, you discussed this during the course of your
11 And you noted the items that are -- and that's -- in the Obrovac
12 area he was talking about, on 19 February 2009, again, at 16.326, line 3,
13 through 16.333, line 10.
14 Again, you listed the bridge and a cross-roads in 673 and the
15 cross-roads at the bottom which is designated as 693.
16 Do you see that, sir?
17 A. Yes, I see the markings in green.
18 Q. Excuse me, 674, 673 and 674.
19 A. 674.
20 Q. Now there were in fact the other targets in this list. If we
21 look at the top, I believe it is 670, the Glinice factory, 355, an
22 artillery firing position we have on the screen. We look at the
23 left-hand side of this document, 338, combat accommodations.
24 Those were entities that were not fired upon at the Split
25 Military District level. Is that right?
1 A. I'm not able to say whether fire was opened because I don't have
2 that information in regard to Tactical Group 5, although I know that as
3 part of preparations it was not planned to open fire.
4 The later artillery support fire was directed or ordered by the
5 competent unit as combat progresses. That's why I'm unable to say
6 whether fire was opened or not.
7 Q. Let's look at number 670 on your list which is the Glinice
9 A. Which page is that, please?
10 Q. That would be -- if you go just through these numbers, it's 670,
11 it would be list page 8 at the lower left-hand corner.
12 Do you see that, 670 which is the -- in the --
13 A. Yes. Glinice factory.
14 Q. And if we look that factory, that it notes that it is a Military
15 District old list. Old source. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, based on that information there, was it your recollection
18 that that the Glinice factory was not fired upon even though it was on
19 this list of targets?
20 A. Yes, that's right. I don't think it was fired upon, the factory,
21 because it was visible from the surrounding hills. There were not many
22 units defending the position. I think it was only a squad that was
23 there. But this particular location was listed among the targets where
24 the forces were expected to have the strength of up to a platoon. It was
25 merely entered into the database as a target.
1 Q. Now, let us talk about these entries into the database just a
2 little bit, and let's talk about them in terms of Obrovac.
3 Now, Obrovac was near the front line, wasn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And near the front line position that was manned by the ARSK,
6 there were any number of tactical positions or tactical targets for the
7 HV forces that were going to move towards the ARSK, weren't there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Let's just demonstrate that with the next slide, because, again,
10 what we've done on this slide with the Obrovac near the front line --
11 MR. KEHOE: If can we go to the next slide please.
12 Q. We have basically given the confrontation line. And as you can
13 see from Obrovac, in the middle of the page, there are any number of
14 targets that are on the list that we talked about this morning with
15 Mr. Russo. And just for an example, we have 346, about midway through,
16 is a bunker. Right below that is 340, a combat accommodation. 344,
17 armour positions. And we can see from the numbers that are on the lists
18 there are any number of targets like that.
19 Now, those are targets that are going to be fired upon, if
20 necessary, at a tactical level, weren't they?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, let us turn to the Gracac map, and that would be -- your
23 testimony on that score was again on February 19th, 2009, at 16.361,
24 line 13, through 16.366, line 8. And this is, again, we have taken your
25 document, which is P2329, and overlay it on --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, could we go back to the previous.
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- map for a second so that I have an opportunity to
4 digest it.
5 MR. KEHOE: My apologies there, Your Honour. The blue line is
6 the HV line. The red line is the ARSK line with the zone of separation
7 between. I didn't elaborate on that sufficiently. But I left it -- it's
8 in the legend on the lower right-hand corner.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The red and the blue, therefore, is not about
10 positions but is about lines.
11 MR. KEHOE: About the confrontation line, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, confrontation. Yes, that is what troubled me a
13 bit because I didn't see any positions in red. But I now see that you
14 meant to refer to the line. That's clear to me now.
15 Let's move on.
16 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
17 If we can go to the next -- back to Gracac.
18 Q. Again, what we've done here as I noted just for the record this
19 is it P2329, the map that you had, that you -- and we overlayed it on
20 targets for Gracac. And I believe that you designated from that several
21 targets in a factory and a cross-roads.
22 Now, your recollection on this, I believe, was not entirely clear
23 because your batteries weren't firing on this, is that right? I mean,
24 you had handed over -- or you didn't control the firing on Gracac. Is
25 that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Well, with regard to this, I mean, Jagoda does list -- there were
3 in fact any number of targets as we see here, or potential targets as we
4 see here, in the list that we talked about this morning. But you don't
5 know if they were fired upon or not. Is that right?
6 A. I don't know.
7 MR. KEHOE: If we can just turn to the next page.
8 Again, what we did was overlay -- or take out the actual map and
9 just give an idea of these targets in contrast to Gracac itself.
10 Your Honour -- Your Honour, at this time, we will offer into
11 evidence 1D00-1138, which is this sequence of maps as we have laid them
12 out Mr. President.
13 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, I don't object. My only issue is that
14 with respect to number 4 in the series, that is, the Obrovac wider area,
15 Mr. Rajcic was asked about several of the targets and that it was put to
16 him that these were tactical level targets. However, it wasn't put to
17 him whether the legend -- if in fact he agrees that all of the ones of
18 different colour relate to tactical targets versus Military District
19 targets, what his knowledge was about that. I think if we can clear that
20 up, I have no objection.
21 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if we can just go back to map I can
22 clear it up in a second.
23 If we can go back to map 4, if we can. And let's look at, for
24 instance, what we talked about before, if we can go to the list and look
25 at 346.
1 Q. If you could you turn to 346. That's a good example as any, I
2 would think.
3 I picked that one out simply because we talked about it and it's
4 at the centre of the page, and we look at 346, which is designated as a
5 fortified trench bunker.
6 Do you see that, sir? Are you with me, Mr. Rajcic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Are you with me on the list itself of targets, 346, which
9 is -- which is page 4 in the B/C/S and page 12 in the English.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, you see, even going down from the top of the page, 337 all
12 the way down, we have a series of targets, 346 being a fortified trench,
13 347, fortified trench, et cetera, and that information, if we go to the
14 source of the information, is coming from the 84th Guards Battalion,
15 isn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and that is a tactical
18 target for the 84th Guards Battalion, and not for the Military District;
19 isn't that right?
20 A. Yes. Yes, it's in the disposition of the 84th Guards Battalion,
21 or right ahead of the disposition or the deployment of the forces of the
22 84th Guards Battalion.
23 Q. So what we're talking about is, if the 84th Guards Battalion is
24 moving on an offensive, if they deem it necessary, they want to hit this
25 trench prior to moving forward, don't they?
1 A. Yes, with their assets.
2 MR. KEHOE: Once again, Your Honour, we'll offer this document,
3 this map into evidence. I don't know if we need any further
4 clarification but I will be guided by any advice counsel can give me.
5 MR. RUSSO: My only issue is that the legend indicates, for
6 example, green Military District targets. I don't know if that is
7 intended to indicate targets which the source of information is the
8 Military District, or if, in fact, the witness can answer whether these
9 were in fact targets for the Military District level. That's --
10 MR. KEHOE: Okay. And can I answer that question with regard to
11 Obrovac. The witness answered what he recalls was fired upon. These
12 particular targets are taken from the document that we were talking about
13 this morning, D1447, and when we look at the source of information, it
14 will be the Military District. That's the designation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, what we find on this map, the numbers and
16 the descriptions, is that taken from this Jagoda list?
17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, verbatim.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Anything -- verbatim. May I then take you to the
19 same map. 672 is close to the centre a little bit up to the right, 672
20 enemy unit.
21 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I look -- but it could be a translation
23 issue, but if I look at the Jagoda list, 672, it says other targets
24 Varos, Simici, without any description on whether it's an enemy unit
25 or -- who has added this information to what I find on 672? Or is it the
1 -- I'm looking at the one Mr. --
2 MR. KEHOE: I see what Your Honour is talking about.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm talking about the list that was used this
4 mourn, the Jagoda list by Mr. Russo.
5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And I see that -- on the map I see information which
7 does not appear in that list. 672, enemy unit, and I have not checked
8 yet the coordinates whether that is really Varos, Simici.
9 MR. KEHOE: May I just check with my colleague? Just one second,
10 Your Honour.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, that is our mistake. I have to go
13 back and check this one again more thoroughly, but that is our mistake.
14 My apologies. We have attempted to try to take this with the numbered
15 designation as accurately as possible, but that is a mistake.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, you will understand that --
17 MR. KEHOE: Of course.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- descriptions as other targets without any
19 further --
20 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- description are perhaps more intriguing than
22 firing positions.
23 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- or ...
25 Now how to proceed. Because then -- of course, this could be
1 just one mistake. It could also be that it's not -- what we find on
2 these maps is not in every respect reliable.
3 The reason why I checked it, Mr. Kehoe, is that on this Jagoda
4 list we find sometimes other targets or a lack of a description; whereas,
5 on the maps I didn't find any one, which raises another question, is
6 whether all the entries of the Jagoda list, in the area covered by the
7 map, are depicted or whether there is a possibility, that, for example,
8 there are other targets or there are -- is it complete. Is there --
9 could you find on this list any coordinate and a number attached to it,
10 which does not appear on the maps?
11 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I can tell you that -- that we have
12 attempted to make a good faith effort on this particular area. We will
13 go back and re-check it thoroughly, given this mistake and whether or not
14 there are any other targets on that list. We did put some effort
15 involved in putting this together, and I can tell you, Your Honour,
16 Mr. President, that we will check and by Wednesday when we reconvene, if
17 we can just MFI
18 and if there, in fact, we missed a target that is in this geographical
19 area that is not depicted and I will share it with co-counsel prior to
20 coming in here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then, Mr. Russo, you would agree with
23 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the MFI number for this series would
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1460, marked for identification.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. If we can turn our attention to another topic that addressed this
6 morning with P2533, which is the diary for TS-4. Do you see that, sir?
7 A. You're referring to this one?
8 Q. I am, sir. Yes, that's the one. Yes. I referred to it by
9 P2533, so the woman that is typing over there in the corner and everybody
10 knows what we are talking about.
11 I'm interested in exploring with you some of the entries that
12 were discussed with you with Mr. Russo and specifically the ones that
13 were discussed on the 9th of August, 1995. The first being at 9.30,
14 where you requested 36 pieces of T-130 to be fired in the general Srb
15 area -- or it says Srb general area. I should -- I think it is probably
16 the last page in the B/C/S, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe the
17 second-to-last page. It is. The second to last page in the B/C/S.
18 Do you see that, sir? Now, just by --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now just clarifying this, I mean, as we look at Srb, I mean, Srb
21 is in Croatia
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Just to the east of Srb is Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when we look at the 9th of August, 1995, there was in the
1 general Srb area, in this theatre of war around Srb, there was combat
2 still going on, wasn't there?
3 A. Yes. Still going on.
4 Q. And the combat was taking place, for the most part, in Bosnia
5 wasn't it?
6 A. For the most part, Operation Storm was on the territory of
8 Q. I'm talking about as of -- let's talk about --
9 A. Talking about the 9th?
10 Q. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th. The theatre of war included
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, right?
12 A. Yes. And in smaller parts, Croatia
13 Q. Now, if we can just go down the next entry and we are talking
14 about you calling in 25 pieces of T-130s on the 12th of August to Drvar.
15 Do you see that? Mr. Russo talked to you about that this
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, Drvar was the headquarters for the 2nd Krajina Corps of the
19 Bosnian Serb army, wasn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So at this juncture in time, and we are talking about between
22 9 August and 12 August, you now have a Serb force which comprises, in
23 part, the Bosnian Serb army conducting an offensive against the HV; isn't
24 that right?
25 A. Yes. That is the 2nd Corps.
1 Q. Well, they were -- they, in fact, conducted the offensive in
2 which the HV lost, I think you said, 24 men on the 12th of August; isn't
3 that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in an attempt to fight back is this shelling that you talked
6 about in the -- on the 9th as well as the 12th, an attempt to repel Serb
8 A. To repel them and stop a possible -- prevent a possible
10 Q. And in fact, Mr. Rajcic, shortly after the 12th, the
11 counteroffensive by the Serbs was stopped, and the HV began their attack
12 again, didn't they?
13 A. Yes. It was stopped in the area of Bosansko Grahovo.
14 Q. And throughout all this, of course, the person that was
15 commanding this at the highest level was General Gotovina; isn't that
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. KEHOE: I think I'm through, Mr. President. If I could just
19 check with my colleagues. I did finish in much quicker time than I
20 anticipated but ...
21 If I may.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I have no further questions of
25 Mr. Rajcic at this time.
1 Q. Mr. Rajcic, thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajcic, the Defence of Mr. Cermak has no
3 questions for you, from what I understand.
4 Therefore, Mr. Mikulicic, are you --
5 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, in order to avoid being repetitive,
6 I will have no questions for Mr. Rajcic as well.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No questions.
8 Mr. Russo, has the cross-examination, because that's what it
9 mainly came down to --
10 MR. RUSSO: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- has that triggered any need for further
13 MR. RUSSO: Just very briefly, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. RUSSO: If we could again bring up D1460, MFI.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Russo:
17 Q. Mr. Rajcic, looking at this map here, you see different targets
18 plotted. The ones in blue, do you know whether or not those targets were
19 actually fired on during Operation Storm?
20 A. I only know about the Slobodan Macura barracks, because the --
21 the firing was planned for the Artillery Group 5, so I know of that.
22 As for the others, I don't know anything about it. So there was
23 an artillery preparation for an attack on Slobodan Macura barracks.
24 Q. Looking at the other -- the targets in blue, if those in fact
25 were fired upon or planned to be fired on during Operation Storm, would
1 you have received any reports or notifications that anyone had fired on
2 those positions, whether they are at the tactical level, operational
3 level, or any other level?
4 A. I would only have received it if there were some major
5 disturbances in coordinating the combat, as far as artillery is
6 concerned. As for the firing of targets -- on targets at the tactical
7 level, through regular channels, each tactical unit was supposed to
8 prepare a written report, and by way of their operative centre, they
9 should inform the forward command post in Zadar thereof and in Sajkovici.
10 That was the pattern. Then an analysis of the targets engaged would be
11 done, who engaged the targets, and in such situations we -- I would know
12 whether there was fire opened on a target or not.
13 I've already said that on the 4th of August, and the 5th in the
14 afternoon, I only received information that the Artillery Group 5 had
15 fired during artillery preparation on the barracks Slobodan Macura.
16 Q. Thank you. And rather than taking you through each one of these
17 slides, does the same situation apply with respect to the areas of
18 Obrovac and Benkovac -- and Gracac?
19 A. Yes. For Obrovac, when I marked the plotted targets the last
20 time, this was in the period of planning for the combat.
21 Now, in the course of the combat, the artillery group or the
22 remaining part of the artillery group, which had remained after a part of
23 it had been set aside for the needs of the military police, the
24 130-millimetre guns could not reach Benkovac [as interpreted].
25 Q. I think I would like to take you back to the answer you just
2 Where you read -- let me read it back to you. It reads that:
3 "In the course of the combat, the artillery group or the
4 remaining part of the artillery group, which had remained after a part of
5 it had been set aside for the needs of the military police, the
6 130-millimetre guns could not reach Benkovac?"
7 Is that correct? Is it military police?
8 A. Not Benkovac; Obrovac.
9 MR. RUSSO: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
10 Q. Mr. Rajcic, thank you very much.
11 MR. KEHOE: If can I just clarify one point that was just raised
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.
14 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
15 Q. Mr. Rajcic, just staying on this map that's on the screen, which
16 is D1460, MFI
17 that 696 is a road, 953 is a cross-roads west, 743 just straight above
18 that is an artillery firing position.
19 Do you see those?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You -- if those positions were fired upon during the course of
22 the day at a tactical level, absent a large disturbance, you wouldn't
23 receive reports back or you wouldn't have been notified at the time that
24 they were in fact firing on those positions, would you?
25 MR. RUSSO: Objection, Mr. President. That question has been
1 asked and answered.
2 MR. KEHOE: It was just -- what was -- the issue that was brought
3 up on redirect examination was an attempt to somewhat --
4 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question.
5 Please proceed.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If these targets that you mentioned
7 that are marked in blue were engaged at tactical level, I described the
8 manner of reporting. The information would be collected at the
9 operations centre of the forward command post in Zadar, where they would
10 be analysed, and if there were some disturbances then such information
11 would be forwarded to the main command, General Gotovina in Sajkovici, or
12 me and the officers in the artillery administration. If not so, then
13 there was no need to send any reports.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rajcic. I have no further questions.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajcic, I have a few questions for you.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to take you back to the -- to the entries
19 in the diary which you were asked about before. That is, the 36 pieces
20 fired at the 9th of August to, as you described, the Srb -- no, as
21 described in the diary Srb general area. And then the 12th of August,
22 the Drvar, 25 pieces.
23 Could you give us some more details about when you gave these
24 orders, or at least there were perceived as your orders or written down
25 as your orders, to -- to fire 36 pieces of the -- to the Srb general
1 area. Where were you at that time?
2 A. At the time, I was at the forward command post in Sajkovici. I
3 apologise, excuse me. In Knin.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The firing of 36 pieces is reported as at 9.30 in
5 the morning.
6 Could you give us more details about when you received
7 information, what kind of information it exactly was, and in which way
8 you phrased your orders?
9 A. On the night between the 8th and 9th, we received information
10 that there were still some remnants of the army of the so-called Republic
11 of Serbian Krajina in the area of the cross-roads, around the
12 cross-roads, and it was necessary to advance with our forces, because the
13 president of the Republic of Croatia
14 state border. Which means that the Croatian army, on the 9th of August,
15 had not fully completed that order because the border was nearby, and
16 we -- to get there, we had to go through Srb.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you there for a second.
18 You said there were remnants of the forces there - let me just
19 find your exact wording - "some remnants of the army of the so-called
20 Republic of Serbian
21 Could you tell us more? Was that 100 people? Was that -- how
22 organised were they? What type of information did you receive?
23 A. I cannot give you the numbers or the formations as organise -- as
24 the structure units. What information we did have was that there were
25 troops amassing in that area. Our forces had to advance and reach the
1 border and, of course, what followed was the normal procedure, which also
2 included artillery support.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you have any information as to the
4 weaponry used by those troops?
5 A. There was information that there were pulling out their
6 artillery, parts of their artillery. Parts were left behind and we found
7 them on the road. And, of course, the assumption was that the artillery
8 that they had with them will be deployed somewhere in that area and used
9 against us.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You said artillery were left behind. Was there any
11 artillery fire, one party to another, reported to you at this morning?
12 Well, let's say, from the last 12 hours.
13 A. Your Honour, I've already said that in the area of Srpski Klanac,
14 which is south of Srb, an observation post, an artillery observation post
15 of the 4th Artillery Brigade had been attacked.
16 THE INTERPRETER: 4th Guards Brigade, interpreter's correction.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you describe the attack, what happened,
18 what kind of weapons were used?
19 A. I cannot describe it because I was not at the artillery post.
20 Other than the information that I received from the operations centre, I
21 didn't have any other information. The information was that this
22 observation post had been attacked by artillery, either by tanks or
23 artillery pieces, that were still part of the army of the so-called
24 Republic of Serbian Krajina, and this was the reason why they had to be
25 neutralised, those assets. In other words, that that part, those
1 remnants of the -- that the army that had been, as it was, those
2 remnants, and -- received another psychological blow and lost, as it
3 were, the will and desire to fight.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Was anything reported as where the artillery fire
5 came from, or tank fire? You said artillery or tank fire. Which
6 direction? From -- within Croatia
7 you tell us what was reported to you?
8 A. After an analysis of the terrain and the topographic maps, you
9 can see that Srb is between -- is nested between high peaks and there is
10 not much room to develop forces on the left and right flanks. The only
11 possibility that remained was that this should be done on -- along the
12 road which they were taking to pull out. And based on the information
13 that we received from the first combat lines, or deployments of our
14 lines, we understood that this was around the cross-roads, the -- in the
15 general area of Srb, leading to Lapac or -- from the north towards
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were there any -- apparently in this clash,
18 you describe it as tank or artillery. Were the positions finally
19 identified from where the -- your unit was attacked?
20 A. Your Honour, it is standard procedure, or, rather, they didn't
21 have enough time -- the enemy forces did not have enough time to conduct
22 this properly, to have engineering fortifications built and so on. In
23 such situations, these things are just hastily organised, in order to
24 prevent the enemy from advancing quickly through the area of attack that
25 had been designated. In other words, this would be done along a road, in
1 a garden, in a backyard, or whatever, and in this way, they would fire
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you ordered that -- was, in these clashes, were
4 there any casualties on the ARSK side?
5 A. According to the information that I had, I don't know that any
6 dead soldiers of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina were found
7 there. I don't have that information, or, for that matter, of any
8 civilians. And, of course, now I'm just referring to the area that we
9 are now discussing.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And how wide would that area -- I mean, if soldiers
11 on the other side would have been killed you would have found them, or
13 A. Yes. But that was not my role, nor was it my task, nor was I
14 supposed to do that at the level where I was. So I was not meant to
15 receive such information, such feedback. I would not be the first
16 instance to receive it, if there had been some dead enemy there.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were there any casualties in these clashes
18 among your people?
19 A. As far as I know, there were one or two slightly wounded
20 soldiers, wounded by fragments of some shells or maybe some infantry
22 JUDGE ORIE: And those wounded were members of what unit or
23 what ...
24 A. I think they were members of the 4th Guards Brigade.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you describe what then happened. These pieces
1 were fired, the 36, apparently. Did you receive any report on the effect
2 of what was hit, what the results were in ...
3 A. Well, I can only say that the results were such that the army of
4 the Republic of Serbian Krajina left that area, and a few officers and I
5 flew over that area in a few helicopters. We landed in Srb. We couldn't
6 see anything. Our job was to reconnoitre the area and decide how to
7 re-deploy the tank pieces.
8 And there was only one minor incident. Fire was opened on our
9 helicopter from small-arms fire, and there were -- there was no -- there
10 were no consequences of that fire.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The 36 projectiles fired, did they hit the target,
12 as you described it, before? Since you flew over the area, could you
13 give us some more details about what the effect of this firing exactly
14 had been.
15 A. In the area that was targeted, as I passed by the intersection in
16 a hurry, I saw several explosion-caused craters which led me to conclude
17 that the unit opened fire upon the targets that were intended. Of
18 course, I did not investigate in respect of each and every projectile.
19 It was impossible.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's move on in the days that followed.
21 What happened between the 9th and the 12th exactly, which caused
22 you to -- to give the order on the 12th? And I would like you to talk
23 about it in chronological order. What caused you to -- to give an order
24 to fire on Drvar, 25 pieces?
25 A. I will try to reconstruct the events of the 9th through 12th on
1 the basis of what I remember.
2 On the 9th, on the order from General Gotovina, I was supposed to
3 use the 112th Brigade, 7th Home Guard Brigade and 134th Home Guard
4 Regiment troops in order to take positions along the state border in the
5 area of Srb. I went back to the headquarters of Artillery Groups 4 and
6 5, the ones that had redeployed to the area of Srb. They had
7 130-millimetre guns and I ordered them to take up fire positions in the
8 village of Kupirovo
9 Then, on the orders from General Gotovina, I went to the forward
10 command post in Sajkovici, and I was given the task of technically
11 dismantling the forward command post, since a group, the Operations Group
12 East, Istok, was set up in Bosansko Grahovo. Operations Group West was
13 in the making in Srb.
14 As I was engaged in dismantling the forward command post in the
15 village of Sajkovici, I received from intelligence officers of the
16 Split Military District in Knin the particular piece of information that
17 I referred to before, to the effect that the enemy had been regrouping
18 their forces in the area of Drvar, in cooperation with the Bosnian Serb
19 Krajina, the 2nd Krajina Corps, and that there -- and that it was quite
20 likely that they would be launching a counterattack against us in the
21 area of Bosansko Grahovo.
22 For that reason, artillery pieces were fired at 8.30.
23 130-millimetre guns were used. These were guns of the Artillery Group 3
24 which were still located at the firing position in the village of Luka
25 next to Bosansko Grahovo.
1 As I've already said, the goal of the fire was to make sure that
2 in the pass south of Drvar, in a canyon there, we should prevent the
3 enemy forces from advancing, since they had been there regrouping and
4 reorganising themselves.
5 On that same day, in the afternoon hours, I travelled the area
6 from Bosansko Grahovo to Knin. Towards the evening hours, I met
7 General Gotovina at the headquarters, and he told me and gave me an
8 order. He said that a counter-attack had been launched in the area of
9 Bosansko Grahovo, that there were quite a few casualties involved. He
10 told me to take the battalion which was left in Knin of the 7th Guards
11 Brigade, they were left there as an intervention force, and to head back
12 to Bosansko Grahovo. We should have carried out --
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes. You said
14 for that reason artillery pieces were fired at 8.30. That was on the
15 basis of intelligence.
16 Earlier you said something about that you had lost 24 of your
17 men. When was that exactly?
18 A. To the best of my recollection, it happened on the 12th, in the
19 afternoon hours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So you lost your 24 men before you ordered the
21 25 pieces to be fired at Drvar. Is that ...
22 A. No, later.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm -- what I said is not -- yes.
24 In the afternoon of the same day, where in the morning, you gave
25 orders to fire at Drvar.
1 I take you back to the 9th. Engaging a cross-roads, would that,
2 under normal circumstances, take 36 pieces?
3 A. Under normal circumstances, it would depend on the strength of
4 the forces on the other side.
5 If we take the standard norms of the eastern option, artillery
6 fire would be used in order to neutralise the enemy, to disturb or harass
7 the enemy which, in that case, would involve 10 percent of ammunition
8 expenditure for neutralising 25 percent of the infantry forces at the
9 target of the artillery pieces. The target being in an open area and not
11 Now, one should calculate how many projectiles would be needed to
12 neutralise such a target, or, rather, to neutralise 25 percent of such a
13 target, in order to be able to say that the 25 projectiles were in fact
14 only 10 percent of the entire amount. So that would involve a bit of
15 maths. I don't know if we have time enough to go into these calculations
16 now or not.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then again me what exactly the target was
18 for the 36 pieces.
19 A. Based on the information from the intelligence organ, the enemy
20 forces could have been 100, 200, or 300 who were regrouping and building
21 up their forces. These, together with the VRS forces, that's to say, the
22 2nd Krajina Corps, were organising their forces with a view to launching
23 a counterattack. This type of target can be qualified as a target of the
24 strength of an artillery battalion, and the dimension of the target would
25 be 300 by 200 metres.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When Mr. Russo asked you questions about what
2 triggered your order on the 9th, you were talking just about infantry
3 fire. Some remnants. You didn't say a word about artillery; you didn't
4 say a word about tanks. I read it to you:
5 "Information was received from the 4th Guards Brigade to the
6 effect that elements of the artillery, or, rather, members of the
7 artillery units of the 4th Guards Brigade clashed with the enemy in the
8 area and they used infantry fire. In other words, there were groups of
9 enemy forces which, although routed, were still dangerous for our
11 This is a story which is certainly quite different from the
12 answers to the questions I put to you.
13 A. Your Honour, among other things, I said, for example, that there
14 were elements, and I don't know this if this was correctly interpreted or
15 not, of soldiers who were members of artillery units as well as infantry
16 soldiers. In other words, there was a presence of the military in the
17 area. The observation post was also attacked by infantry fire as well.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I ask the parties whether, in the earlier answers
19 given to Mr. Russo, whether artillery or tank being used in these clashes
20 were part of the answers.
21 Could there be any translation issue?
22 I thought I would have heard of you if such an important ...
23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, it is possible. I -- I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: You can check that.
25 Mr. Rajcic, we have fortunately the ability to check in quite
1 some detail your own words and how they were translated and how they were
2 transcribed. At least the way in which it was translated to the Chamber,
3 it was just infantry fire of some remnants, which were mentioned as the
4 event triggering your first order on the 9th.
5 I think in your -- when I asked you about it, you were talking
6 about intelligence as well; whereas, in your earlier answer, you just
7 referred to information received from members of the 4th Guards Brigade.
8 Was there any other intelligence as ...
9 A. Your Honour, it is very difficult to describe combat action in
10 two sentences, a day's worth of combat actions in two sentences. The
11 fact of the matter is that between the 8th and the 9th, fighting was
12 still going on, though, admittedly, not of high intensity. Doubtless
13 there was fighting going on and this is the sort of information that
14 reached the command post. If I were to describe all the activities
15 taking place in that general area covering some 10 square kilometres,
16 that would be very difficult. I'm only citing details, warranting
17 artillery fire on the 9th. Still, if I made myself clear, what I said
18 here was that there were reasons to open fire and that there was still
19 sporadic fighting going on.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to focus specifically on the -- on the
21 order given on the morning of the 9th.
22 I just put to you: Would it have been possible that members of
23 the artillery units of the 4th Guards Brigade had a clash in the sense of
24 some of infantry fire fired at them from an unknown number of persons
1 Is that a possibility?
2 A. Yes, Your Honour. There is one type of action in the field of
3 artillery which is called adjustment and guidance of artillery fire in
5 In other words, the commander of the artillery unit is at the
6 forward end of the disposition, among the infantry troops, and guiding
7 fire from there. To me, that comes across as a customary combat action.
8 Whether it was indeed carried out or not, I don't know. The information
9 that reached me at the command post was that there were such problems and
10 attempts were made at solving the problem. And that's quite legitimate.
11 The 4th Guards Brigade, ever since it broke through on Mount Dinara
12 that sort of fire guidance in movement, as it advanced.
13 Those are the forward ...
14 May I continue?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said sort of fire guidance.
16 What do you exactly mean? Guidance given by whom? Or by what?
17 A. Guiding of fire is something that is done by forward spotters or
18 forward observers. Oftentimes fire is guided by the commanders of the
19 units opening fire. In this specific case involving the 4th Guards
20 Brigade, it was the commander of the artillery battalion of the
21 4th Guards Brigade who engaged in guiding artillery fire south of Srb.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we read in the document that you gave the
23 order. The 36 pieces. And that's what I'm focussing on. That you gave
24 the order. So, therefore, to explain what a local commander would do or
25 would have done is beyond the focus of my question.
1 A. Your Honour, my apologies. A local commander, or a lower level
2 commander, as we call it, is the one who seeks support -- fire support
3 from his superior command, along his axis of attack. For this reason,
4 the information reached Knin. When we relocated the command post from
5 Sajkovici to Knin, we received information there to the effect that they
6 needed artillery support in that area. That's where I come into play.
7 My role comes to the fore. I call the commander of the artillery group,
8 which contains 130-millimetre guns, and we give them the assignment of
9 providing support to the unit which found itself in difficulties.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
11 Do you remember in which way you -- what the -- what wording your
12 order was? Because it appears on paper now as general area of Srb.
13 Was that what you told them to do?
14 A. If I were to state now that I remember this 100 percent, it would
15 not be fair, I don't think. The way I worked always was that one would
16 take the relevant coordinates from the map of the location and the
17 coordinates would be placed into the target -- through the target
18 analysis calculation because that is the only way we can do it.
19 Otherwise, fire cannot be opened, unless we get the X, Y, and Z
20 coordinates first.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, on paper, where in the diary usually
22 the targets are well identified, either by code or by coordinates, here
23 we find a description which is far away from such a precise description
24 of a target.
25 Do you have any explanation on why they would have written it
1 down in the way they did?
2 A. Your Honour, this is a working document produced by the commander
3 of the artillery group. He would write down the initial information, the
4 source information, out of which everything that is relevant for
5 artillery fire is extracted. I wasn't there when this was done. It is
6 said the general area of Srb. The X, Y coordinates indicate the
7 intersection. What follows next is one would take the coordinates down
8 and open fire according to the coordinates. The way it is written now --
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
10 A. -- it does not allow for artillery fire to be opened. There has
11 to be the rest of the information, including the X and Y coordinates.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.
13 Just see whether I have ...
14 I have one or two more questions but we'll have them after the
15 break, because we, first, need some time.
16 We'll resume at 1.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.39 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajcic, I have a few more questions for you.
20 Could you have a look at the list that was presented to you by
21 Mr. Russo this morning, the one we called the Jagoda list.
22 Do you have it? And then I'd like to take you to entries 735 and
23 736, if you could try to find them.
24 Have you found them?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I have.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at these descriptions, which is "other
2 targets," and then just the name of a village, and that's true for both
3 735 and 736, and nothing else is found there as what type of target that
4 would have been. Is this kind of describing targets familiar to you, and
5 how do I have to understand them, other than in the village or the
6 village, as such, there is something to be targeted?
7 I'm just wondering how this can be used and what purpose it
9 A. Your Honours, for these targets, one would need additional
10 information and explanation. I can say exactly what it was because I
11 know what was in Popovici, and we see the coordinates here, and this is
12 enough for an artillery person. But as for tactical and technical
13 preparation of the goal, one would have to know whether this is a place
14 where troops have accommodation or maybe a depot, so one would need
15 additional information, and this information would be sought from
16 intelligence services, which would then have to provided confirmation as
17 to what type of target this is.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said you would need additional
19 information, and you say: "I can say exactly what it was that" -- it
20 seems not to be transcribed in -- "because I know what was in Popovici."
21 Could you tell us?
22 A. Yes. In Popovici there was a reserve contingent of the army in
23 the area of Karina. These were forces that conducted a defence in the
24 area of the Operations Group Zadar. I spent a lot of time there, and I'm
25 familiar with Popovici because they were frequently mentioned, and that
1 is why I can say here now that this was reserve contingent of the army.
2 And I have also added by way of explanation that if you didn't have this
3 information, if you didn't know it firsthand, then additional information
4 would be required.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "I spent a lot of time there." When do
6 you mean, you spent a lot of time there?
7 A. Well, I arrived there in early June 1993, and remained in the
8 area, the Zadar-Sibenik area through the end of 1994, or, rather, to be
9 more specific, until the 5th of November, 1994, when I moved on to
11 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my understanding, Popovici being a target
12 in the area territory held by the Serbs, when was that taken by the
14 A. It was taken by them, as far as I know, from the very start in
15 1991. They were already there in Popovici around the Karinski [phoen]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, I asked -- you said, "I spent a lot of
18 time there," and when I asked you when, you said it was in early
19 June 1993. You were then staying in Serb-held territory?
20 A. In 1993. No, I know this area because I served as a soldier in
21 the Benkovac barracks and I also conducted military exercises there,
22 while I was in the former JNA.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to understand. You say, I know about it
24 because there was a -- you spent a lot of time there, and you said there
25 was a reserve force there.
1 When did you learn about that reserve contingent of the army?
2 A. I learned that information in June 1993 that there was a reserve
3 unit of the army of the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina
4 JUDGE ORIE: And that was in barracks, in -- how are they -- and
5 where were they exactly located in Popovici?
6 A. Well, the standard practice was for them to be billeted in some
7 school buildings or some other type of warehouse or company facilities or
8 in private homes, if facilities of this type were not -- non-existent.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we see that on this list often described,
10 school which are always understood which as school where there was
11 military presence, not school children; that's how I understood it. Or
12 warehouse or -- usually you find that in a description laid out, what
13 kind of facility it was. Even I think that the issue of what a stacionar
14 is, there couldn't be so many hospitals, I'm afraid, Mr. Russo, but,
15 please, correct me when I'm wrong, that seems to be a place where people
16 are -- where military men are housed or located and we have seen that
17 many of them were close to the confrontation lines.
18 But here I found nothing. Where your explanation is an
19 explanation which usually comes with a corresponding description on the
20 list; whereas here it is -- it doesn't say anything.
21 Do you have any explanation for all the other targets without any
22 description? Sometimes from the location, for example, if it says an
23 elevation, then I take it that it's a higher point of military
24 importance. But, here, village. What explains the absence of any
25 further details, if you know?
1 A. Your Honours, I cannot explain it because this is not a document
2 that I produced. This is a document produced by the intelligence organ.
3 But, as I said, an artillery person would need to get some additional
4 information and that is what was usually done. That's how we actually
5 did it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.
7 Mr. Rajcic, have you ever been invited by the Prosecution to be
8 interviewed prior to coming to The Hague and testifying?
9 A. Your Honour, do you mean today or earlier on?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Earlier, in the last, well, anything in the last ten
11 years. Did they say, Mr. Rajcic, would you please come and talk with us,
12 we'd like to interview you.
13 Did that ever happen?
14 A. Yes, it happened on four occasions. The first time it was in
15 2007, when I received a phone call at home. It was from a woman who said
16 she was a representative of the OTP of this Tribunal, this honourable
17 institution, and she asked me if we could talk and I said that I didn't
18 feel it was -- I thought it was not serious enough to -- that it was too
19 serious to conduct this type of conversation over the phone and that I
20 was prepared to do it but not over the phone.
21 On the second occasion - that was on the 21st of November, 2007
22 on this occasion, two investigators came to my parents' home - that's
23 where I live now - they came unannounced and asked that I appear on the
24 22nd in Sibenik for an interview. They asked my mother to sign off on
25 the summons for my presence at this interview. She refused. And since I
1 was not at home, when I arrived in the evening, I found this summons in
2 the house on the table, and it was a summons for this interview.
3 And I arrived -- and I arrived at the county court in Sibenik at
4 around 9.30, I believe, this was. I think I still have this document in
5 my archives. And my intention was to tell these gentlemen (a), that it
6 was really inappropriate that they should come to my parents' home in
7 this manner; and (b), that I was not prepared to answer any questions
8 because I had placed myself at the disposal of the Defence of
9 Mr. Gotovina, and I volunteered that I would gladly testify on their
10 behalf, if they found it was necessary. And if this Honourable Tribunal
11 wished me to report and to come and testify in some other manner, that I
12 was prepared to, of course, respond to that.
13 Then there was another -- there was another telephone call this
14 year on the 22nd of January -- the 27th of January.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
16 A. To the effect that the Prosecutor would like me to testify on
17 16th of February and whether I was prepared do so. Again, I replied that
18 I had already stated how I was prepared to testify, at whose request, and
19 if this Tribunal sent a subpoena, or subpoenaed me, that then I would of
20 course appear in court.
21 This is what happened last time and it went the way it went. And
22 then on the 4th of March this year, I received another phone call from
23 the Prosecutor at home. They asked, they said that I should come and
24 testify again, because some new documents had been obtained --
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... that is the
1 telephone you referred to earlier when asked about -- recalled whether
2 you knew about which documents. Or is that a different -- earlier, I
3 think Mr. Russo asked you whether you would -- was right at the beginning
4 of the -- is that that telephone call [Previous translation continues]
6 A. [Microphone not activated] Yes, yes. Yes, that's the telephone
7 call I'm referring to.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You have explained that telephone call
9 and it was not an invitation for an interview but rather to be recalled
10 as a witness.
11 Could you tell us, when did you agree with the Defence to make
12 yourself available as a witness? When was that; could you tell us?
13 A. As early as 2005, I think in January, I gave a first statement to
14 the Defence, and I also certified it, and the -- my statement had to do
15 with my recollections of the Brioni transcript, and I think that this
16 Chamber has that at its disposal. And on this occasion, I also offered
17 to testify, if needed and when needed, on behalf of the Defence in these
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those answers.
20 I have no further questions for you.
21 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for further
23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, they have.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kehoe.
25 MR. KEHOE: If I may.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
3 Q. Mr. Rajcic, you were asked some questions by Judge Orie
4 concerning the Bruno Milin report, P2533, concerning the shelling in the
5 Srb area.
6 I want to direct your attention just briefly to one of the
7 annexes that you had previously talked about, and that is P2343.
8 MR. KEHOE: And if we could bring that up and I would like the
9 English page, which I believe is 45. I'm not certain exactly what the --
10 the -- 52 would be the B/C/S page.
11 Q. And this is the Srb -- excuse me, this is the 4th Guards -- it's
12 the operative log-book for the 4th Guards Brigade. I'm not certain if
13 you recall it in your annex, but I believe it was Annex 13.
14 Now, on the -- let me just pull this up on the B/C/S. I'm
15 looking for the entry for the 8th of August at 8.05, and there's a
16 request in there that the TRS - that would be the one of the artillery
17 groups - is requested to work over Srb.
18 Do you see that, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's a request to fire on
21 Srb, isn't it?
22 A. Yes, that's what it says there.
23 Q. Let's stay on this -- on this date and go down to the entry for
24 1430, later on in the day. I think we're going to change the page in the
25 B/C/S, yeah.
1 MR. KEHOE: If we could change the page in the B/C/S to 1430.
2 Frankly, I don't know how many -- there it is, at the top, the
3 second-last entry. The second-to-the-top entry on the B/C/S; it's the
4 second from the bottom on the English.
5 Q. Now this reflects at 1430 that: "Mechanics, oil and fuel wanted
6 for captured vehicles -- captured tanks," excuse me, "and infantry combat
7 vehicles at the point A11 (Srb)."
8 Now, did it -- were you given information or did you get
9 information at the time on the 8th, prior to your order on the 9th, on
10 the 8th, that there was fighting going on with the ARSK and that tanks
11 were captured -- and infantry combat vehicles were captured from the ARSK
12 during the course of that combat?
13 A. The precise information as to the type and quantities of captured
14 vehicles and technical equipment did not reach me. We just -- general
15 information that there were captured -- there was technical -- captured
16 technical equipment and vehicles, but I could not speak about the details
17 but that there were some vehicles and technical equipment captured. I
18 knew of that general information, and it was immediately used in combat
19 around Bosansko Grahovo and so on.
20 So, for me, this is something that is routinely done during
22 Q. You were also getting information that combat was actually taking
23 place between the HV and the ARSK on the 8th, weren't you?
24 A. Yes, of course. Such information always was done in coordination
25 and they were relayed as quickly as possible, depending on the
1 communications equipment that we had.
2 Q. Let's keep going on this date and turn to the next page for the
3 entry of 1940.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Which page in English?
5 MR. KEHOE: I think it would be the next -- 26? 46. 46, I
6 think, in the English. Yeah, that's right.
7 Q. 1940. Nurses' reports --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you remind of the exhibit number, Mr. Kehoe.
9 MR. KEHOE: This exhibit number is P2343.
10 JUDGE ORIE: 2343. One second, please.
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. It notes that the members of the 3rd Infantry Battalion - of
13 course it's part of the 4th Guards Brigade because this is the 4th Guards
14 Brigade operative log-book - wounded in the area of Srb. That should be
15 S-r-b as you can see in the actual on the translation, although it's
16 difficult to see. But in Srb are Nedjo Paic and Ivan Matic. They were
17 also lightly injured by a hand-grenade. After he's given first aid, Paic
18 returned to his unit, whereas Matic stayed in the hospital -- stayed in
19 hospital. Ivan Marunica was --
20 MR. KEHOE: If can we turn the page in the English.
21 Q. "Also hospitalised today. He will check out tomorrow. Gavran
22 and Lucaj have been evacuated to Split."
23 Now, was this consistent -- while you might not have the
24 specifics, was that consistent that the HV had suffered casualties in the
25 Srb area on the 8th, at the hands of the ARSK?
1 A. Yes. And it says here in the evening hours and that's what I
2 have already mentioned here, that there was combat, there was fighting
3 going on. There were casualties, and we were supposed to reach the state
4 borders and, of course, on the next day, we were preparing for artillery
5 preparation and so on. So I don't want now to specify all the things
6 that are done in situations like these.
7 Q. Well, it was the following morning, according to the Bruno Milin
8 document, P2533, the TS-4 diary, that you ordered fire in the Srb area at
9 9.30 in the morning with 36 rounds. That's what we talked about before.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that was -- now, I think you established before that was an
12 attempt to fire on these ARSK positions, wasn't it, and drive them back
13 and or harass them and drive them away, wasn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Milin, you think you noted that you didn't write this.
16 Mr. Milin doesn't have specific coordinates and Judge Orie asked you
17 questions about those coordinates.
18 I mean, were you firing pieces of artillery, T-130s, in this
19 particular circumstances without grid coordinates and without a specific
20 target? Were you doing that?
21 A. Mr. Kehoe, throughout the duration of the homeland war, I never
22 fired a single projectile without knowing the exact coordinates, nor did
23 the units I was in command of, ever.
24 Q. So simply because Mr. Milin didn't write the grid coordinates
25 down one cannot conclude that there were no grid coordinates, could you?
1 A. No, nor could it have been possible to have the necessary
2 elements for targeting, if there are no coordinates.
3 Q. Let us turn our attention to the next entry in the diary which is
4 8.30, from Drvar, and you, on the -- 8.30 on the 12th of August of 1995,
5 where 25 rounds are being fired on Drvar.
6 Now before we get to that I would like to you look at the bottom
7 of the rest of the page, where there are numerous notations concerning
8 events that have taken place from the 10th through the 12th.
9 Do you see those at the bottom of the page? Or it should be
10 actually the --
11 A. Yes, I can see that.
12 Q. So the entries that we have here are not necessarily in
13 chronological order per the handiwork of Mr. Milin, are they? Obviously.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... let us turn our attention
16 back to Drvar. I mean, I think you mentioned both in my questioning and
17 in questioning by Judge Orie that Drvar was the headquarters of the
18 2nd Krajina Corps. And that you fired on Drvar on 12/8/1995 at 8.30.
19 Let us turn our attention to what the response of the VRS
20 happened to be.
21 MR. KEHOE: And if we can go to P71, which is the Split Military
22 District diary, and the date [sic] I have is 101 in the English and 62 in
23 the B/C/S. That's P71.
24 Q. And I'm looking at the time entry at 5.45 on the top of the page
25 on the 13th.
1 Do you see that, sir, at 5.45?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... now at 5.45 on the 13th, the
4 enemy - and this is the VRS and the ARSK - started to attack HV forces in
5 the area of Grahovo, didn't they?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in addition to infantry, this notation reflects that there
8 was an artillery attack as well, doesn't it?
9 A. Yes, that's what it says.
10 Q. So when you were preparing or when you were making a decision
11 with your other commanders to fire on -- on Drvar on the 12th of
12 August of 1995, were you aware that VRS was attacking and that they
13 continued to attack into the morning hours of the 13th?
14 A. Yes. In this part of the front line, the army of the Serbian
15 Republic of Krajina
16 through to Glamoc while building up forces, the ones that I referred to
17 earlier, in Drvar.
18 Q. The reality, Mr. Rajcic, is from the -- your entry on the
19 9th until at least the 13th of August, 1995, there was heavy fighting in
20 this border area between the HV and the combined Serb forces, wasn't
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. KEHOE: I have nothing further, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
25 Mr. Russo, well, perhaps before, Mr. Rajcic, on the last question
1 you answered that it was heavy fighting, whereas earlier you used the
2 word "sporadic" for that area. I'm a bit confused about your answer.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Not too long, please. Yes?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I talked of sporadic fighting,
6 I referred to the area west of Grahovo. Let's take Grahovo as the centre
7 of the area.
8 To the east there was sporadic fighting and the HV conducted
9 attacks against Glamoc. Admittedly, the positions of the sides did not
10 shift, save for the Grahovo incident where I said that we lost 24 of our
11 men. If you can visualise Drvar and Grahovo, to the west of Grahovo we
12 have sporadic fighting all the way to the state border where there was
13 Operation Storm; and to the right flank we had our forces, together with
14 the HVO, where there was continued fighting, and let me call it
15 stationary fighting, and exchanges of artillery and infantry fire.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
17 Mr. Russo.
18 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could have P2343
19 brought up again and go to --
20 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, perhaps I should have -- it's your
21 witness so perhaps I should have given you the first opportunity to, but
22 usually the Chamber's questions come after the re-examination.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could have page 53
25 in the B/C/S and page 45 in the English.
1 Further Re-examination by Mr. Russo:
2 Q. Looking at the entry for 0 -- for 8th of August, the entry that
3 Mr. Kehoe directed your attention to, which indicates the tanks had been
4 captured. This happens at 1430 hours on the 8th of August, correct, and
5 the firing that you reported or the firing that you ordered on Srb
6 doesn't occur until 9.30 in the morning the following day?
7 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me. Doesn't say "on Srb." It says "Srb
8 general area," counsel.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's what it says and that's what I understood
10 Mr. Russo wanted to refer to.
11 But for your information, it was the order about the 36 pieces to
12 be fired at the general Srb area.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 36.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
15 MR. RUSSO:
16 Q. Can you explain this to us then. If tanks are captured in the
17 area at 1430 hours on 8th of August, what happens between then and 9.30
18 in the morning the following day? Because if you look on the very next
19 page --
20 MR. RUSSO: If we can go to the next page.
21 Q. It's entries for 9.30 -- the entries for 9 August only begin at
23 information about what happens around the time that you ordered the
25 So if you can tell us what happened between 1430 hours on the 8th
1 of August, when the tanks were captured in the area of Srb, and when you
2 ordered the firing.
3 A. If we go back to the earlier document, it says Knin 1440,
4 captured tanks, and a supply of fuel for them was requested.
5 The fighting continued in the direction of Srb. At that point,
6 on that night when the soldiers were wounded at 1940, in view of the
7 continued fighting, the need arose for artillery preparations to be made
8 on the following morning, and to complete the assignment as ordered.
9 Not all the tanks and artillery pieces were left behind by the
10 enemy forces, and not in one location. They withdrew with whatever
11 vehicles, tanks or whatever they had, and depending on the fuel they had.
12 Some of the artillery pieces were therefore transported into Bosnia
13 all were left behind in Croatia
14 Q. Were there tanks or artillery pieces of the RSK remaining in Srb,
15 after those which were abandoned and taken by the HV forces at 1430 hours
16 on the 8th?
17 A. I myself saw a T-34 tank in the vicinity of Otric, as well as
18 several army trucks full of ammunition. In Srpski Klanac there was a
19 76-millimetre gun complete with ammunition but without the towing
20 vehicle. Probably the intention was to speed up the pace of retreat and
21 to make room for soldiers to be mounted on trucks. This is what I saw
23 As for the quantities that were there, you can look into the
24 files of the Split Military District, into the files listing the military
25 hardware captured during Operation Storm.
1 Q. Just to be clear, those pieces which you are indicating you
2 personally witnessed, the T-34 tank, the army truck, ammunition, those
3 were abandoned pieces of artillery?
4 A. Yes. In the area just ahead of Srb, not in Srb proper. As I was
5 on my way to Srb, this was between Knin, Otric -- if you can visualize it
6 it is easier for me because I know every inch of the ground. All of it
7 that was found was in the area up until the Srb pass, or Srb canyon.
8 That's south of Srb proper along a stretch of some 10 to 15 kilometres.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. RUSSO: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Russo.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rajcic, since it appears that no one has any
14 further questions for you, this concludes your testimony in this court.
15 I would like to thank you very much for coming back to The Hague
16 It's already the second time that you were here, and for answering the
17 questions that have been put to you by the parties.
18 You are excused. I wish you a safe trip home again.
19 Madam Usher.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE ORIE: There were a few outstanding matters. We do not
23 really have time to deal with them. At the same time, I would like to
24 see to what extent we could -- we could finalise them. Perhaps without
25 coming back to court and spending a whole session on it.
1 There was an issue of D1083, deals with a translation issue on a
2 document, rules of internal organisation of the Ministry of Interior.
3 There's still -- I don't know whether that has been resolved.
4 Mr. Mikulicic, wasn't it you who --
5 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, that issue was in fact triggered by
6 the Defence and it was on 65 ter list of the Prosecution, and I spent a
7 lot of conversation with Mr. Waespi in order that they simply ask for the
8 clarification of the remarks that the defendant made on it. And,
9 unfortunately, in this moment, I have no further information on the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's any progress made, perhaps the
12 Chamber could informally be updated.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, I will check with Mr. Waespi on it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then there was -- yes, there was another matter, but
17 the Chamber will -- there was still an outstanding issue on the relevance
18 on the judgement issued by the municipal court of Knin in a complaint
19 matter which was instituted by -- I think by (redacted) and
20 others. It has been tendered, I think, through Mr. Hedaraly. The
21 Chamber will decide on the matter. I think the main objection was
22 relevance. It was about war damage.
23 Yes, the Chamber was informed that for Mr. Lazarevic there are no
24 requests for protective measures and that still was there to be put on
25 the record.
1 MR. MISETIC: Yes, with the qualifier, I believe --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That there was a specific issue about his
4 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So no protective measures apart from that everyone
6 refrains from referring in any way to the place where he resides.
7 That's on the record.
8 There is another matter which is primarily P2336, P2339, and
9 P2340, are -- and let me turn into private session for one second.
10 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
19 We adjourn until Wednesday, the 27th of May, 9.00 in the morning,
20 when the Pre-Defence Conference will be held.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of May,
23 2009, at 9.00 a.m.