Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18082

 1                           Thursday, 4 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Ms. Skare Ozbolt, I would like to remind you that the solemn

13     declaration that you gave yesterday at the beginning of your testimony

14     still binds you.

15             It seems that we have one technical problem.

16             Meanwhile, we can continue.

17             Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to continue your examination?

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           WITNESS:  VESNA SKARE OZBOLT [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Mr. Kehoe: [Continued]

24        Q.   Good morning Ms. Ozbolt.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 18083

 1        Q.   Yesterday, Ms. Ozbolt, we finished off with you talking about

 2     your work down in UN Sector South with various Krajina Serbs that were in

 3     that area, encouraging them to stay.  And I would like to turn a couple

 4     of documents.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry for the interruption, Your Honours.

 6     I'm not sure that correctly characterizes.  I believe the testimony was

 7     encouraging those that remained in the UN compound, the families of

 8     accused war criminals to stay.

 9             Thank you.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honours, it was completely a lead-in to go to

11     the next topic, which we were going to.  The record of what the witness

12     said speaks for itself.  It was merely leading to get to the subject.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

14             Yes, let's not -- put your next question to the witness.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

17        Q.   Ms. Ozbolt, I would like to show you several forms that were not

18     discussed in your statement but have been part of the supplemental

19     information sheet.

20             Now, I would like to show you two Prosecutor documents.  The

21     first one is P56.

22             MR. KEHOE:  If we could look at that one.

23        Q.   Take a look at this document, Ms. Ozbolt, and I'm going to show

24     you a just small variation, which is P57, and just ask you about both of

25     those.

Page 18084

 1             Preliminarily, are you familiar with this document?

 2        A.   I must admit that I'm not.

 3        Q.   Let's look at P57.

 4             How about this document, ma'am?

 5        A.   I must admit that I don't recall this document.

 6        Q.   Now, do you recall documents where Serbs who were -- Krajina

 7     Serbs who were leaving the area signed documents saying that they

 8     voluntarily wanted to leave the Republic of Croatia.

 9             Do you recall that, ma'am?

10        A.   You mean during the time that I was at the camp?

11        Q.   Yes, ma'am.

12        A.   Yes, they did sign a form given to them by the UN.  However, that

13     was not part, and I didn't pay much attention to it, since on the

14     premises where we talked to these people, there were representatives of

15     UN and quite simply the procedure was first for them to talk to them,

16     then with me, then with the Assistant Minister Penic, and then again with

17     UN representatives.

18             So what they eventually decided was their own decision, and they

19     probably signed something similar to what we see here.  But I have to say

20     that I don't remember these documents.

21        Q.   Okay, ma'am.  Did you have any discussions with the UN personnel

22     that were there as to why documents such as -- similar to this might have

23     been signed saying that we wanted to leave Croatia?

24        A.   No.  The UN probably wanted to have some kind of security for

25     themselves because their departure would have been part of the UN

Page 18085

 1     procedure of escorting them.

 2        Q.   Now, yesterday you talked about Western Slavonia.  Did you have

 3     any information that the UN or any other international organisation had

 4     used a similar form in Western Slavonia after Operation Flash?

 5        A.   I believe that they had their own ways of recording the people

 6     who wished to leave Croatia, and in doing so, sought assistance from the

 7     UN or rather peacekeeping forces.

 8        Q.   Let me shift topics with you, and I'd like to talk to you just a

 9     little bit about one of the issues that you discussed briefly during your

10     opening comments yesterday.  And can you correct me if I'm wrong, but I

11     believe yesterday - and I don't have the final transcript - you noted

12     there were 500.000 Croatian internally displaced people, as well as

13     300.000 refugees, for a total of approximately 800.000 individuals that

14     the Croatian government was taking care of.  And turning to the 800.000,

15     I mean, where were these people being housed by the Republic of Croatia?

16        A.   Wherever they could.  Most of them were accommodated on the sea

17     coast, in the hotels there.  Some of them were also placed in hotels

18     inland because there was no other accommodation available.

19             They were also placed in homes or hotels, and those were the

20     people who were forced to leave their own homes.  And that was a

21     situation that prevailed since 1991.

22        Q.   And the individuals that you are saying were forced to leave

23     their homes, are you talking about Croatians that were forced out of the

24     Krajina?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18086

 1        Q.   Explain to the Trial Chamber the burden on the Croatian resources

 2     that these 800.000 internally displaced people and 300.000 -- excuse me,

 3     500.000 internally displaced people and 300.000 refugees, what kind of

 4     burden on Croatian resources these individuals presented?

 5        A.   First of all, I have to say, that the 300.000 had come from

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the 500.000 were internally displaced

 7     persons.

 8             They were given accommodation wherever it was possible, primarily

 9     in the hotels that were vacant because, quite simply, there was no other

10     way of providing shelter for the people who were flowing in on a daily

11     basis because they were fleeing the terror, and they only had their basic

12     belongings with them.

13             Refugees were arriving in Zagreb almost every day in big columns

14     and convoys, buses, and in any way they could.  The only way to provide

15     them with shelter back then in 1991 was in hotels.  The refugees who had

16     relatives found shelter with them, but the majority of them sought some

17     kind of security and shelter from the government.

18             If you're asking me about the burden, that was a tremendous

19     burden because, in that way, Croatia had to make available all its

20     tourist resources, meaning hotels, bungalows, holiday resorts, et cetera,

21     which meant that there was no tourism; and, of course, as part of the

22     economy it died down completely.

23             People were, of course, jobless.  Somebody had to provide support

24     for them, and throughout all these years, that was an enormous cost and

25     burden on the budget and on the government.

Page 18087

 1        Q.   Now, let us talk for a moment about the Croats who were displaced

 2     from the Krajina.  And the Trial Chamber has heard evidence that numerous

 3     Croatian homes in the Krajina were destroyed between 1991 and 1995.  And

 4     you have talked about the peaceful reintegration policy and a part of

 5     that policy was bringing displaced Croats back to the areas that they

 6     were displaced from.

 7             Now, during this period of time, however, the attempt was to

 8     bring displaced people back to an area where their homes were, in fact --

 9     had been destroyed; isn't that right?

10        A.   Yes.  There were attempts to return them, and the goal was to

11     restore the ratio of the population that had existed in 1991, before the

12     expulsion and before the outbreak of war.

13        Q.   Now, post Operation Storm, you and the other officials in the

14     president's office -- did you?

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, Mr. President, I think counsel got the

16     message which was to ask --

17             MR. KEHOE:  I didn't get any message at all.  You stood up in the

18     middle of my question, so I figured I would stop and let you have your

19     say.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  I --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, let's first calm down, yes?

22             I come back to the first time Ms. Gustafson intervened.  I let it

23     go, but of course she was right.  You misrepresented what was said

24     yesterday that was talking with the family - -

25             MR. KEHOE:  That's true.

Page 18088

 1             JUDGE ORIE: -- of those who had remained and not what you told

 2     the witness.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  It was merely a lead-in to what we were going into

 4     those documents, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It was not only leading, it was leading not -- it

 6     was leading not accurately representing where you left off yesterday.  I

 7     let it go at the time.

 8             Ms. Gustafson, at the same time, is well aware, I take it,

 9     Ms. Gustafson, that going into details which do not really affect matters

10     should be limited to the necessary.

11             Let's continue.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KEHOE:

14        Q.   Ms. Ozbolt, did you and other members in the president's office,

15     and this is after Storm, did you receive information about burning and

16     looting going on in the Krajina?

17        A.   Yes.  We received such reports.

18        Q.   What was your reaction to that, Ms. Ozbolt?

19        A.   My reaction was extremely negative.  I was personally ashamed of

20     such a conduct.  It was not only shameful, but we demanded that the

21     perpetrators be found and punished.

22        Q.   Did you or did you have -- in addition to you, did you or any of

23     the people that you talked to in the president's office, had you expected

24     and planned for that type of conduct?

25        A.   I have to say that such conduct was truly unexpected.  We had

Page 18089

 1     launched Operation Flash, that was conducted in an extremely good manner,

 2     and it did not end up in such situations.  And I must say that nobody

 3     within the government had expected to see what took place after

 4     Operation Storm.

 5             I talked about this with the president.  He was rather upset and

 6     angry because of that.  He even told me at one point that this was

 7     actually a sabotage, because his efforts had been aimed, and I think that

 8     was also a promise given to everyone that the military operation would be

 9     completed swiftly and that we would proceed towards the continuation of

10     the process of reintegration.

11             Therefore, this kind of conduct was completely unexpected,

12     horrendous and it blemished the overall efforts made by the Croatian

13     government.

14        Q.   Ms. Ozbolt, when you were working as the assistant Chief of

15     Staff, did you ever see any actions by President Tudjman that indicated

16     to you that there either was a plan to burn and loot property in the

17     Krajina or to allow people to burn and loot property in the Krajina after

18     Operation Storm?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Now, when this happened, did the looting and the burning of Serb

21     homes, did that complicate or make difficult the re-sheltering of

22     Croatian internally displaced people who might have wanted to come back

23     to the Krajina?

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Just an interruption.  Again, I'd like to ask

25     that these questions be asked in a non-leading way.

Page 18090

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, was it leading?

 3             MR. KEHOE:  No, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It was, Mr. Kehoe.  Please reformulate your question

 5     in a non-leading way.

 6             MR. KEHOE:

 7        Q.   Did it looting and burning complicate the plans for the Republic

 8     of Croatia, as it went to reintegration?

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, that is a leading question.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's still leading, Mr. Kehoe.

11             You could ask what the effect was of the looting and burning on

12     the development and implementation of policy matters.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Taking His Honour's question and I re-ask it, hopefully, in the

16     same fashion that His Honour Judge Orie did.

17              What was the effect of the looting and burning on the

18     development and implementation of the policy matters for the Republic of

19     Croatia.

20        A.   It had an adverse effect.  No one in the government, in their

21     right mind, would condone the burning and the looting.  The president

22     discussed this matter with the representatives and ambassadors from the

23     contact group.  Also, this was done by the prime minister, the minister

24     of foreign affairs, the minister of the interior; but no one had expected

25     that that would occur.

Page 18091

 1             I have to say that the reaction of all the parties who were

 2     involved in this and who were in the leadership of the country, they were

 3     shocked.  Nobody stood to defend those who were involved in burning and

 4     looting, and there were requests for them to be prosecuted.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the number

 6     of the people prosecuted.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Interpreters could not hear the number you

 8     apparently mentioned.  Could you please --

 9             THE WITNESS:  2.000 [Interpretation] 2.000.

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   Ms. Ozbolt, what impact, if any, did this burning and looting

12     have on housing of Croatian internally displaced people?

13        A.   It was extremely foolhardy to set houses on fire, because, for

14     those people who were supposed to come back, it was difficult to find

15     accommodation precisely due to the burning.

16             In addition, it created confusion and difficulties, not to

17     mention the shame that we all felt.

18        Q.   Can you explain to us what difficulties, if any, it presented to

19     the Republic of Croatia on the international political level?

20        A.   At the time when Operation Storm was in the planning phase, I

21     said that we wanted to find a peaceful solution to the very end.

22     However, since this was rejected by Martic's government, a military

23     operation was launched with the intention of conducting it for a very

24     short period of time, and that it would be followed by as quick

25     restoration of normal life as possible.  That was our plan.

Page 18092

 1             Therefore, there was no plan to go into looting or setting fire

 2     on houses following Operation Storm, because it was totally unreasonable.

 3        Q.   My question for you is that the impact on the Republic of

 4     Croatia, the impact or difficulty it presented to the Republic of Croatia

 5     on the international political level.

 6        A.   It was an adverse impact because nobody would condone looting and

 7     burning.

 8        Q.   Let me move on -- we have talked about this property destruction

 9     issue and then I want to address one last issue with you concerning the

10     temporary takeover of property.

11             Are you familiar with the law in the Republic of Croatia on the

12     temporary takeover of property?

13        A.   Yes, I am.

14        Q.   Now -- and I want you to, in your answer to explain your --

15     your -- in your testimony with respect to confiscation and sequestration,

16     did this law allow the Croatian government to confiscate property that

17     was abandoned by the Krajina Serbs who had left the area?  Did it allow

18     that?

19        A.   Oftentimes, especially representatives of the government and

20     minister for the reconstruction and development had, as their task, the

21     need to explain that the law at no cost allowed the confiscation of

22     property because private property is protected in Croatia under the law.

23             Following Operation Storm, as well as Operation Flash, certain

24     individuals decided to leave the Republic of Croatia, and, in doing so,

25     left their property behind, precisely in order to make sure that the

Page 18093

 1     properties did not remain deserted and thus open to possible attempts at

 2     looting or burning; and while, at the same time, we had large numbers of

 3     refugees whose accommodation in hotels became untenable.  The government

 4     enacted this sort of law which was of temporary character - and I

 5     highlight it was of temporary character - whereby these refugees would be

 6     put up on a temporary basis in such abandoned homes.  And the refugees to

 7     be given that accommodation largely came from Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 8     although some were from Croatia as well, until such time as their homes

 9     were reconstructed or rebuilt, or until such time as the refugees from

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina would be able to go back to their homes in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   Now, with regard to this law, was there a requirement that Serbs

13     who left -- was there a requirement that those individuals sell that

14     property to the Croatian government?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Once again, I object to the leading.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, isn't a -- aren't you leading to whether

18     or not selling was an issue.  Could you ask it in such a way that,

19     whether there were any requirements, if you would leave the property.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Sure.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. KEHOE:

23        Q.   Turning our attention to this property and potential sales of

24     this property, were there any requirements concerning that sale?

25        A.   The question includes the term "requirement."  There was no such

Page 18094

 1     requirement.  There was a possibility for those who did not wish to

 2     return to Croatia to sell their property, either on the market or to the

 3     Government of Croatia.

 4             In agreement with representatives of the international community,

 5     an agency was set up for the sale of real estate, which sold and bought

 6     such properties, or, better put, it bought such properties off.

 7             Such an agency was also set up in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I

 8     believe the same was true for Serbia.  It was meant for all those

 9     individuals who no longer wished to live in their earlier or previous

10     places of residence.  In this way, the Government of the Republic of

11     Croatia bought a good many such properties.  It bought the properties by

12     paying up money.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, if I might have one moment.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I have no further questions of this

17     witness.

18             Thank you, Mr. Ozbolt.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

20             Mr. Kay, do you have any questions for the witness.

21             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I find out whether you will examine or

23     cross-examination her.

24             Ms. Ozbolt, you will now be examined by Mr. Kay.  Mr. Kay is

25     counsel for Mr. Cermak.

Page 18095

 1             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay

 3        Q.   Ms. Ozbolt --

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I really apologise for the interruption.  I just

 5     want to inform the Court that we're having technical difficulties.  The

 6     compter here is dead.  We're not able to release our cross-examination

 7     documents.  At the moment, we're working on it, and we'll get them as

 8     soon as possible.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you need the assistance of any technicians then

10     please inform the Registry so that they can assist you.

11             Mr. Kay, are you not bothered by the lack of computer assistance.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KAY:  It is probably a help rather than a hindrance,

14     Your Honour.

15        Q.   Ms. Ozbolt, we know that Operation Storm started on the 4th of

16     August of 1995.  When did you first know that that military operation was

17     going to take place?

18        A.   It's a difficult question, requiring a very specific answer.

19     Since, throughout that time, I was within the chain -- the flow of

20     communication, we knew that an operation would ensue should the

21     negotiations in Geneva fail.

22             If you're asking me if I knew of it, yes, I did.

23        Q.   And so there came a moment, did there, when information came to

24     you that the military operation was -- was going to go forward.  Would

25     that have been the day before the 4th of August, something like that?

Page 18096

 1        A.   Yes.  Something like that.

 2        Q.   And would it be right to say that then certain plans involving

 3     military, Ministry of Interior, other government agencies, started going

 4     forward from that date?

 5        A.   Probably.  Although I was not privy to these plans.

 6        Q.   And in relation to Mr. Cermak, would it be right to say that

 7     before the 4th of August and Operation Storm started, that his name and

 8     he had not featured in any of that flow of information concerning the

 9     operation?

10        A.   No, it did not.  He was not mentioned.  He was a businessman at

11     the time, deeply immersed in his business.

12        Q.   And just looking at him during that period, as you've described

13     him, a businessman, would it be right to say that for a couple of years

14     he had been outside political life.  He hadn't been involved in politics?

15        A.   The last time he engaged in politics, was, I believe, as a

16     minister of energy and industry.  So he was a member of the government,

17     charged with energy industry, and ship-building industry, I believe.

18     This was some time in 1993, roughly.

19        Q.   Thank you.  We know that he was appointed by President Tudjman on

20     the 5th of August to be the garrison commander of -- of Knin.  When did

21     you first hear that General Cermak was being considered for a position in

22     relation to Knin?

23        A.   Well, roughly at that same time.  The idea was, as I've already

24     said, to bring the military operation to its end as soon as possible and

25     to start restoring the communications system and to revitalise the entire

Page 18097

 1     area.

 2             The president wanted to find an adequate person for the job.  He

 3     was looking for a businessman of the sort who would be able to have the

 4     entire matter up and running quite soon, and his choice was Cermak.

 5        Q.   Would it be right to say, then, that at that time, the idea came

 6     about that something would have to be done in relation to Knin, if it was

 7     liberated, to enable its reintegration and reconstruction inside Croatia?

 8        A.   I think that I said yesterday that the Croatian government felt

 9     that it was in dire straits when it came to the economic situation and

10     that the situation was untenable.

11             The military situation was a condition sine qua non, however it

12     had to be done with as soon as possible in order to start revitalising

13     the economy and life in general.  However, there was a great deal to be

14     done there since the Republic of Serbian Krajina was in total disarray.

15     The only structure working there at the time was the military.  The

16     schools, the health system, and the economy, the latter, practically

17     non-existent, did not function at all.

18             The southern parts of Croatia were cut off from the mainland,

19     which posed a serious economic problem.

20             The third problem were refugees whom the government could no

21     longer sustain under the circumstances.

22             All of these matters called for a swift action.  It was necessary

23     to start revitalising the entire country as soon as possible.  That was

24     the objective.

25        Q.   Was it known then that since 1991, when the Republika Srpska

Page 18098

 1     Krajina established itself in Knin and the surrounding area, that there

 2     had been no investment, no development, no going forward in terms of

 3     living conditions?

 4        A.   Yes, correct.  Nobody would invest in a -- a war-affected area of

 5     high risk.  Croatia was designated a war zone.  This was definitely an

 6     enormous problem of the tourists stayed away, investors steered clear of

 7     Croatia.

 8        Q.   We know that there was the government's trustee for Knin, a man

 9     called Mr. Petar Pasic.  Were you familiar with his name and his

10     position?

11        A.   Yes.  By virtue of its authority, the government appointed

12     commissioners or trustees to such areas who were supposed to be

13     constantly in touch with the government and carry out all the decisions

14     issued by the government and addressing the relevant areas covered by

15     commissioners.

16        Q.   And would those responsibilities have been involving the

17     government's trustee, providing conditions to ensure an economic revival,

18     getting the town working, and the normalisation of life in Knin?  Would

19     that have been one of the responsibilities and tasks of such a person?

20        A.   Yes.  That would have been the responsibility of such a person.

21     Although, the problems prevalent in Knin went far beyond the abilities

22     and possibilities vested with Pasic as a trustee.

23        Q.   Would it be right to say that one of the purposes of sending

24     Mr. Cermak to Knin would have been for him to help support and work with

25     Mr. Pasic in his tasks?

Page 18099

 1        A.   Mr. Pasic was a government official.  Mr. Cermak was an erstwhile

 2     minister, a retired general, and a businessman.  He had very high

 3     organisation skills.

 4             The idea and the message behind Cermak's appointment to Knin was

 5     to place emphasis on reconstruction, economic revival, restoration of

 6     communication, and, in general, normalisation of life.

 7             If you will allow me to continue, we had a similar situation in

 8     Western Slavonia, where, in addition to the trustee, other individuals

 9     were appointed there as coordinators, as it were, who could assist in the

10     whole process.  The same idea was applied to the Knin area.

11             However, these same individuals who were engaged in

12     Western Slavonia could simply not be spared from Western Slavonia in

13     order for them to be dispatch to the south because there remained a great

14     deal of work to be done in Western Slavonia.  Thus, Cermak was the

15     choice.

16        Q.   Is it right that he was also known as someone who was an expert

17     in logistics and organisation of projects from his experiences of working

18     as a minister from 1991 until 1993?

19        A.   As I said, he was known to be a rather good organiser.  Since he

20     covered a field which was largely that of the economy, he was the ideal

21     person for the job.  He also had that military background of generalship

22     behind him, and, to put it simply, it was a good combination.

23        Q.   Would it be right to say that in making this appointment, there

24     was no intention of President Tudjman to make Mr. Cermak the commander of

25     the police, the civil police in the region?

Page 18100

 1        A.   You see, if President Tudjman wanted to appoint a civilian

 2     policeman, he would have done so.  The emphasis was placed on the need

 3     for an individual to be appointed to that job who could bring about the

 4     normalisation of life there.

 5             There were no intentions of introducing any sort of a military

 6     regime, particularly in view of the delicate situation that obtained

 7     there, and in view of the fact that the message that had been sent across

 8     to the population there had, throughout that time been, We want you to

 9     remain here and be integrated into the Croatian system.  The appointment

10     of a military person or a policeman of any sort would have come across as

11     some sort of duress or oppression, which was not the goal.

12        Q.   Would it be right to say, then, that President Tudjman did not

13     send Mr. Cermak down there to be in command of a military regime of the

14     area.

15        A.   Yes.  That was not his objective; that's right.

16        Q.   We know from evidence in the case that the international

17     community were based in an UNCRO camp in Knin, and that at the time of

18     the liberation of Knin, a large number of the Serbian and Croatian

19     population had gathered in that place.

20             Did that event cause any problems, so far as you know, in

21     relation to the plan and strategy of the government, or the president,

22     for that matter?

23        A.   If you can be more specific in your question as to what sort of

24     problem it could pose.  There were several hundred individuals in that

25     camp who found shelter in the UN camp.  The UN requested our assistance

Page 18101

 1     in the resolution of the situation, which we provided.

 2             That was the first time I went to Knin.  General Cermak was

 3     there.  I think we went to the camp together.  I stayed behind, and he

 4     left, returning thereafter perhaps, I don't remember.  We resolved the

 5     situation, at any rate.

 6        Q.   You've told us that Mr. Cermak's job was the normalisation of

 7     life.  Was he also given the task of liaising, on behalf of the Croatian

 8     government, with the UNCRO commander and internationals based at that

 9     camp?

10        A.   Look, at this moment, I can really not give you specifics what

11     his powers were.  Unfortunately, what we -- or, rather, the president

12     entrusted Mr. Cermak with, such a model does not exist anywhere in the

13     world.

14             If you're asking me about his powers, he was, in a way, a

15     landless knight; I would put it that way.  He held a position of a

16     coordinator and the area of his competence was unknown.

17             If you're asking me about liaising with UNCRO representatives, he

18     to communicate with him.  Somebody had to go there and solve those

19     problems.  Whether that was within his powers or not, he was quite simply

20     forced to solve the problems that they came up with to him on a daily

21     basis.

22        Q.   Was it ever predicted that the UNCRO camp in Knin would present

23     itself as a problem for the future planning of what was to happen in

24     Knin?

25        A.   Can you please clarify the question?  I don't understand it.

Page 18102

 1        Q.   Was it predicted in those days of the 4th/5th of August, that the

 2     relationships with UNCRO and the people in the camp was something that

 3     would present a problem as between the UN and Croatia?

 4        A.   No.  The problem arose when the UN said that those people refused

 5     to leave the camp and that that was creating logistical problems for

 6     them.

 7        Q.   Would it be right to say that the Croatian side - the Croatian

 8     government and its organisations - viewed this area as being their

 9     sovereign territory that they had liberated, belonging to them --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.    -- and that the internationals, now on their territory, were not

12     there with the same authority that they had previously had, and with the

13     same role?

14        A.   Well, the UN authority remained unchanged.  However, Croatia

15     restored its authorities there, and the UN was there to assist this

16     process.

17             I would put it this way:  Something that should have been done

18     under the auspices of UN, and later UNCRO, was actually achieved by the

19     government itself.  Let me remind you that the goal of the UN

20     peacekeeping mission was not only to stop the war but also to effect

21     demilitarisation and launch the restoration of normal life, which

22     involved the return of refugees and revival of the whole area.  These

23     were the UN tasks, according to the UN resolutions.

24             However, since this did not happen, Croatia introduced its

25     authority on its own, but the UN remained there and helped the things

Page 18103

 1     being put in order.

 2        Q.   Can we go now to an exhibit in the case.  It's Exhibit D28.  And

 3     it's the agreement that was signed between Mr. Akashi and Mr. Sarinic on

 4     the 6th of August, 1995.

 5             MR. KAY:  If we just produce that on the screen, please.

 6        Q.   Can you see that, Ms. Ozbolt?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.

 8        Q.   And is this a document that you're familiar with?

 9        A.   Yes, I am.

10        Q.   And were you aware of it being signed at the time by Mr. Sarinic

11     and Mr. Akashi?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And we can see what the terms of the agreement concern.  And in

14     relation to particular issues, we know that, under paragraph 3, that

15     there is an section which, "Croatia encourages all those previous

16     inhabitants of the Republic of Croatia ... who so wish to remain

17     peacefully in the areas over which Croatian authority is exercised."

18             Croatia will allow full guarantees for security, the departure of

19     those who don't want to stay in Croatia, except those who committed

20     violation of international criminal law.  And in the event of any such

21     departures, Croatia was to allow UNCRO and other organisations and assist

22     and coordinate in departures from -- from the region.

23             Are you able to help us with a little bit of the background

24     concerning this document and this paragraph in particular?

25        A.   Therefore, anyone who wished to leave Croatia within the

Page 18104

 1     organisation and under supervision of UNCRO would apply to them.  They

 2     would probably have to fill out a form that we had seen earlier today,

 3     and they would be escorted out of Croatia by them.

 4        Q.   In making this agreement, Mr. Sarinic and Mr. Akashi, were they

 5     both aware at the time that because these --

 6             MR. KAY:  Excuse me.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd just like that ask for foundation to be made

 9     as to the knowledge of the state of mind of Mr. Sarinic and Mr. Akashi at

10     the time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay --

12             MR. KAY:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE: -- you follow that suggestion?

14             MR. KAY:  I can, and I accept it and --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. KAY:  -- will deal with it.

17        Q.   Do you know why -- well, you have answered that already.  Well,

18     I'll ask this again.

19             Do you know why this paragraph was inserted into the agreement by

20     both parties?

21        A.   Because particularly some of the people who were in the camp that

22     we mentioned before actually wanted to leave Croatia.

23        Q.   This agreement applies to --

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I'm not sure that

25     foundation was really laid by that question.

Page 18105

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we haven't heard the follow-up question,

 2     so ...

 3             MR. KAY:  I'm -- I must say I'm at a loss to know why we're

 4     getting these objections because this is obviously a key issue in the

 5     case and involves the anticipated departure of people from the Croatian

 6     territory as envisaged by Mr. Akashi on behalf of the United Nations.  We

 7     know that he was the Special Representative of the Secretary-General, and

 8     Mr. Sarinic, who was the advisor to President Tudjman and head of his

 9     office.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed with your line of questioning.

11             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

12        Q.   We see that this document applies to Sector North and

13     Sector South.  How much information was there at the time that you were

14     aware of of the scale of people who wanted to leave Croatia at that time?

15        A.   I have to say that I was not aware of the number of the people

16     who wished to leave Croatia.

17             Akashi visited our office and told us that there were some people

18     who didn't want to live in Croatia any longer.  It was agreed on that

19     occasion that their departure would be coordinated with the UN.  And, for

20     that reason, we have this clause in this agreement.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And the issue, then, of those who had committed

22     crimes, did you -- are you able to inform the Court as to what you knew

23     about that issue and why it was asserted inside this agreement?

24        A.   A provision was inserted in this agreement for those who want --

25     were allowed to leave, with the exception of those who were in breach of

Page 18106

 1     international criminal law, i.e., those who had committed war crimes.

 2        Q.   Do you know what preparations the Croatian government was taking

 3     at that time to deal with any such suspects or people accused of war

 4     crimes who they believed were part of that population who might want to

 5     leave Croatia?  Do you know what steps were being taken to deal with that

 6     issue?  The Court is aware of the background concerning events in 1991

 7     and onwards, in general terms.

 8        A.   Those who had committed crimes in the areas of Sector South and

 9     Sector North were identified.  Their names were known.  The witnesses who

10     had fled the area, or were expelled from it, testified to that in court.

11     There were trials conducted against the people who were believed to have

12     committed war crimes.  Their names, the events, and the witnesses were

13     known to the courts, and it was the courts who had them on their wanted

14     lists.  And precisely for that reason, of their being on either the

15     wanted lists or because they were already subject to legal proceedings,

16     or, if they were already convicted in absentia, is the reason for this

17     provision to be included in this agreement, meaning that these people had

18     to be brought to justice.

19        Q.   So was this a matter, then, at that time that was with the

20     Ministry of Justice?

21        A.   The Ministry of Justice was only a body that transmitted the

22     request that came either from the state prosecutor or directly from the

23     courts, and they conveyed these requests to UNCRO at that time.

24        Q.   So there were lists of -- of suspects, is that right, who were

25     people who had been named before the Croatian justice system.  Is that

Page 18107

 1     the situation at that time?

 2        A.   Yes.  The Ministry of Justice had a list of people that were

 3     sought by the judiciary.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, if you would allow me to seek some

 5     clarification.

 6             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You were talking about persons tried in absentia,

 8     so, therefore, convicted persons.  When Mr. Kay asked you a follow-up

 9     question, he asked you whether there, therefore, were lists of suspects.

10     Of course, suspects and convicted persons is not the same.

11             And in your answer you said, "The Ministry of Justice had a list

12     of people that were sought by the judiciary."

13             Now that could be both, I take it, accused and those already

14     convicted.

15             Could you give us an impression about the number of persons that

16     were convicted for war crimes?  As I understand from you, most of them

17     would be tried in absentia.  But could you give us the impression of the

18     number of people that were tried already for those crimes?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the list that the

20     ministry had were the lists of people who were in different stages of

21     prosecution or proceedings and that were wanted.  Those who were

22     convicted were given a possibility, given that they had been tried and

23     convicted in absentia, to be retried.

24             I cannot recall exactly at the moment how many of those were on

25     the list of the people against whom final judgements were passed, but I

Page 18108

 1     think there were about 40-ish people or there about.  I cannot give you

 2     the exact number.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  40.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Something like that, yeah.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Something like that.  For the Krajina only or in

 6     Sector North or south?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Krajina only.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Krajina only.

 9             Now, how long was the list of those who were suspected and,

10     therefore, sought by the prosecutorial services?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lists of suspects was quite a

12     long one, and it encompassed the whole country.  It consisted of over 400

13     names of the people who were wanted on suspicion that had -- they had

14     perpetrated crimes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Crimes or war crimes?

16             THE WITNESS:  Crimes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Crimes.

18             THE WITNESS:  Crimes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Because the exception says international criminal

20     law.  That's, of course, not every crime.

21             Would that -- may I make the question more specific.  Would that

22     include being a member of an armed force, which was an illegal armed

23     force?  That is to say, that it occupied the territory of Croatia?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  This does not include

25     participation in an armed rebellion or possession of weapons, because

Page 18109

 1     amnesty was declared for these kind of felonies on four occasions

 2     throughout this period.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, a correction must be made because

 5     Your Honour is dealing with matters.  It was 4.000 not 400.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh.  Then I either misunderstood or --

 7             MR. KAY:  It was a mistranslation as I am instructed.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that -- you said 4.000 the long list of suspects?

 9     Yes.  That is it then now clear --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I come back to my question.  You said this

12     included crime, not necessarily war crimes.  Is that -- I asked you

13     crimes or war crimes.  Your answer was crimes.

14             Do you know how many of them were suspected of having committed

15     war crimes?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I honestly don't know the exact

17     number.  This list that contained over 4.000 names included those who

18     committed murders that were not qualified as war crimes.  Therefore, this

19     number did not include minor criminal offences but, rather, really

20     serious crimes or a suspicion of serious crimes.  How many of them were

21     actually accused of war crimes is difficult for me to say.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

23             Mr. Kay, please proceed.

24             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             Can we look at a document now, Exhibit P388.  It's a letter dated

Page 18110

 1     the 8th of August, 1995, sent by General Cermak to General Forand, and so

 2     two days after the Akashi/Sarinic agreement.  And if we just have a look

 3     at this letter.

 4        Q.   General Cermak was asking for a list of the refugees in the camp

 5     so that he could address their problems and see that passes are issued to

 6     all who want to leave the camp and go on living in the area of Knin.

 7             Just looking at that, was there an issue that those people who

 8     had been in the RSK and were now under Croatian sovereignty were required

 9     to have some sort of identification papers and to register as Croatian

10     nationals, if they were to be Croatian citizens?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   The letter says we will provide conditions of normal life for

13     them together with UNCRO, draw up a list of women, children, and persons

14     older than 60 who may leave the camp unimpededly; and if they do not wish

15     to return to the liberated areas, but want transport to Bosnia or Serbia,

16     we shall provide that as well.

17             And then the next paragraph:  It is necessary to make a list of

18     men aged between 18 and 60 who will have to be interviewed by the

19     representatives of the civilian police of the Republic of Croatia, in

20     cooperation with your people.  They will be provided with health care,

21     access by the Red Cross, and other humanitarian organisations.  All those

22     who have not committed any crimes against the Republic of Croatia will be

23     allowed to go back to Knin, while those who do not want this will be

24     given transport to Bosnia or Serbia.  Those detained will be handed to

25     the judicial authorities of the Republic of Croatia.  Please could you

Page 18111

 1     give me this list at once so that we can together settle the problems

 2     that have arisen.

 3             Having seen that letter now, have you ever seen that letter

 4     before?

 5        A.   It is possible that I have.

 6        Q.   All right.  It's --

 7        A.   I'm sorry, it's been a long time ago.

 8        Q.   It's just the issues in the letter, and --

 9        A.   Well, that was the context.

10        Q.   Yes.  If we look at that paragraph about the list of the men whom

11     General Cermak said were to be interviewed by the civilian police as well

12     as the international people, and then the issue of any crimes, that any

13     may have been committed; this letter written by General Cermak, do you

14     know if that was a measure taken by him acting on behalf of the Ministry

15     of Justice, in relation to this matter?

16        A.   Well, that was probably requested of him by the Ministry of

17     Justice, since the Ministry of Justice was in possession of the names of

18     people who were wanted by the judiciary and the courts.

19        Q.   Was it the case, then, that Croatia wanted to sort this matter

20     out quickly in relation to any suspects or any who may have been

21     convicted who were inside the UNCRO camp taking shelter?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   You, as we've seen from the papers, were eventually dealing with

24     this matter with an assistant minister for justice, a Mr. Tomislav Penic;

25     is that right?

Page 18112

 1        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand.  Yes, yes.

 2             I did not discuss this issue with Mr. Tomislav Penic.  We came

 3     across this issue in the president's office when Mr. Akashi drew our

 4     attention to it.  It seemed difficult to solve the problem and, at that

 5     point, we got involved in that.  Ultimately, I went down to the camp,

 6     together with Mr. Penic.  We talked to the families of these individuals

 7     and provided them assurances.

 8        Q.   If I can just cut you short there as we will be going into that a

 9     little bit later on.  And it is just one last question which will then be

10     appropriate for the break, with Your Honours' leave.

11             Had Mr. Penic been dealing with this matter before you on behalf

12     of the Ministry of Justice and as it became more and more of a problem

13     between the UN and Croatia, you, from the president's office, were

14     brought in?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that is a convenient moment for the break.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, could you give us an indication of how much

18     time you would still need.

19             MR. KAY:  Two hours, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Two hours.

21             Mr. Mikulicic.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I will probably need only 15

23     minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Ms. Gustafson.

Page 18113

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I anticipate needing quite a bit of

 2     time in cross.  Approximately four to five hours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I write everything down.

 4             We'll have a break, and we will resume at 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has considered the time needed by the

 8     parties.  The Chamber is of the opinion that it should be possible to

 9     finish the testimony of this witness this week.  That is, today and

10     tomorrow.

11             For those purposes, Mr. Kay, you asked for another two hours.

12     You'll have that next session even if that would be a bit of an extended

13     session, which gives you one hour, 35; one hour, 40, approximately.  Try

14     to squeeze in your question.

15             Then, Mr. Mikulicic, you get the 15 minutes that you ask for.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt.  If I could

17     be of any assistance, in the meantime I rescheduled, and I'll have no

18     questions on that witness.  So my 15 minutes is on disposal to other

19     Defences and to the Prosecution office.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I suggest that you take a relatively long

21     session with the assistance of interpreters and transcriber but certainly

22     not more than one hour and 45 minutes.

23             Then, Ms. Gustafson would you have the remaining time this

24     morning and two sessions tomorrow, which brings you to approximately

25     three and a half hours then.  A little bit over three and a half hours.

Page 18114

 1     We would then have the third session for tomorrow for Judges's questions

 2     and re-examination.

 3             That is the schedule on which we will work, which I may also make

 4     clear to you, Ms. Ozbolt, that we expect to finish tomorrow at a quarter

 5     to 2.00.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

 7             MR. KAY:  Just checking the clock and see if I can beat the

 8     clock.

 9             I'll skip a few documents then.

10             Let's turn to 65 ter 1D2614.

11        Q.   This is a document that just in English, Ms. Skare Ozbolt, but

12     that I believe you're able to read English because I think you will

13     recognise some -- the document.

14             This has not been translated into Croatian, Your Honour.  It is

15     not a language of the Tribunal as Your Honour knows, so it is just the

16     English document.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If all the Defence teams and accused agree

18     with having it only available in English, then, of course, we can

19     proceed.  If not, then, of course, we would insist on having a

20     translation.

21             MR. KEHOE:  We certainly agree, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Mr. Mikulicic.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  We agree as well, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 18115

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise this document, Ms. Skare Ozbolt?  It's addressed

 4     to you on the 2nd of September, 1995?

 5        A.   Yes, I do recognise the document.

 6        Q.   We see some handwriting on the document.  Is that your

 7     handwriting?

 8        A.   No, not at all.

 9        Q.   Do you know whose handwriting that is?

10        A.   I have no idea.

11        Q.   If we just look at the content of the letter, it's from

12     Mr. Harston of the United Nations, and he had spoken to you the day

13     before, and we see that he is recommending agreement with regard to the

14     displaced people in the UN compound.  And he says that charges and

15     supporting evidence for 62 persons should be made available, that there

16     should be a meeting to discuss each case on an individual basis.  On the

17     basis of those discussions, the UN will be prepared to release those

18     listed to the Croatian authorities, and then he puts a number of

19     conditions.  We see the words "okay" written down the side.

20             MR. KAY:  Let's turn to page 2.  I won't go through all the

21     detail.  To ensure proper identification of individuals, and if there is

22     any disagreement on the conditions that it should be referred to the

23     ICTY.  And then he makes suggestions concerning the immediate departure

24     for those who are not among the 62 listed persons.

25        Q.   First of all, then, looking at this letter from Mr. Harston, were

Page 18116

 1     there problems in the way that he had addressed this issue on behalf of

 2     the UN, as far as the Government of Croatia was concerned?

 3        A.   I think that is an answer to this letter of Mr. Harston's that I

 4     wrote.

 5        Q.   There is.  Would you like to turn to that now?

 6        A.   It wouldn't be a bad idea.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be entered into

 9     evidence.  There is an version, I believe, of it already, but without the

10     handwriting on.  And Your Honour may recollect we had this similar issue

11     yesterday with a previously presented document.

12             The handwriting might actually be informative of the issue as

13     well.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although if we do not know who wrote it, then

15     it hardly adds that it appears that one person on this world seems to be

16     okay with some matters.  And someone is struggling apparently with what a

17     summons and what an indictment is.

18             But what does it add, Mr. Kay, to our knowledge?  Or does it add

19     to confusion on who that one person might have been.

20             MR. KAY:  Well, it shows that there was an issue within the

21     Government of Croatia as to what was being asked by United Nations.  Your

22     Honour knows that there is a criticism from the Croatian side about the

23     lack of comprehension of the Croatian system by the international lawyer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, then, this and that's the underlying

25     suggestion --

Page 18117

 1             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- or assumption, that this is a copy of the letter

 3     which is found within Croatian government circles --

 4             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and not coming from any other source.  Is that

 6     how I have to understand?

 7             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Because then it makes sense what you say.  If we do

 9     not have such an assumption, then it could have been any legal clerk.

10             MR. KAY:  We're not sure.  I obtained this copy from

11     Mr. Harston's statement disclosed in the proceedings.  That's why it is

12     marked JH/2.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, any observation as far as admission

14     into evidence is concerned?

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  There's no objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then ...

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar the number for this document would

19     be ...

20             There appear to be too many microphones open.  Could ...

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1479.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.  The Chamber would

23     appreciate receiving information as to where this document originates

24     from, not who drafted it, but where this copy with this handwriting was

25     found.

Page 18118

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'll look into it at the break, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Exhibit D634, which is the letter you were referring to,

 6     Ms. Ozbolt.  It is dated the 4th of September, 1995, written by you and

 7     about the draft UNCRO agreement.  It was sent to you, sorry.  Got my

 8     documents misplaced.  Sent to you.  And it concerns information from a

 9     professor Vukas and Muljacic, an assistant minister in the foreign

10     ministry.  And it's about the draft UNCRO agreement, and this legal

11     opinion was sent to you.

12             Is that right?  Did you receive this document?

13        A.   Yes, I did.  And I recognise it.  That's correct.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, could I assist.

16             MR. KAY:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that the interpretation had problems with the

18     expansion SOFA.  SOFA is a brief for a status of forces agreement, as far

19     as I'm aware of from my legal background.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

22        Q.   In relation to the issue being dealt with by you, was there not

23     only conflict concerning the system of Croatian law versus any other form

24     of law, as well as the issue of validity in international law, concerning

25     rights and obligations in dealing with these people?

Page 18119

 1        A.   That's correct.  I told Mr. Harston that we would be absolutely

 2     adhering to all the provisions of international law.  However,

 3     Mr. Harston had only just arrived and was not familiar with the subject

 4     matter he was charged with, which created a certain degree of nervousness

 5     both on our side and in Mr. Akashi's office.  Due to his lack of adequate

 6     knowledge, the whole process lasts longer than it should have.

 7        Q.   There was eventually another letter written to you on the 9th of

 8     September, Exhibit D637.  I won't look at that.  But to save time, we'll

 9     look at a letter with you that you wrote, Exhibit D638, as the Court is

10     familiar with the background, having seen these documents before.  And

11     let us skip a stage and go to the letter written by you, Exhibit D638.

12             This was a letter written on the 11th of September?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   And you refer to a letter of the 9th of September.  And, again,

15     it concerns issues of the protocol that was to be applied as between the

16     UN and the Croatian authorities for dealing with these people whom the

17     Croatian justice system wanted to deal with.

18             We can see an explanation in paragraph 3, the issue of a charge

19     sheet and decision on the conduct of an investigation, and the point that

20     a charge sheet is issued only after an investigation has been carried

21     out.  And the rest of the terms of the letter can be seen.

22             MR. KAY:  If we quickly turn to page 2, to enable the Court to

23     familiarise itself again with the document.

24        Q.   Would it be right to say that this was a conflict of legal

25     cultures taking place between Croatia and Mr. Harston and the people he

Page 18120

 1     represented?

 2        A.   That's how it could be put, indeed.  It was a conflict of legal

 3     cultures, but it extended only to Mr. Harston.  Other members of

 4     Mr. Akashi's team from his legal department assisted me in assuring

 5     Mr. Harston of the substance of the Criminal Code of Croatia and the

 6     Law on Criminal Procedure of Croatia.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. KAY:  May we look, then, at another document, 2D15-0001.

 9        Q.   And it is from Mr. Penic, whom you told us about at the Ministry

10     of Justice.  A letter to you dated the 11th of September, 1995.  If we

11     look, first of all, at the front page and we see the message:

12             "I understood this is important.  If you want to know more,

13     please call."

14             MR. KAY:  Let's turn to page 2.

15        Q.   He refers to a memo of the UN from the 9th of September, 1995.

16     That's Exhibit D637; we've no need to look at but to link.

17             And there is an explanation there of the system to be applied

18     within the Croatian criminal justice system, as regards the investigation

19     against 35 suspects.

20             Do you recognise this document as the document being sent to you?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   And the next page, page 3, so that everyone has had a chance to

23     see that page, again, the details on there, signed by Mr. Penic.

24             And is this document, then, an explanation as to what was

25     required to be in conformity with the Croatian criminal justice system

Page 18121

 1     and the way that the system would operate?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, might this be made an exhibit, please.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1480.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. KAY:

 9        Q.   In relation to what was happening, this was being played out at

10     the level in Zagreb, the government level, with the United Nations

11     headquarters; is that right?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And in relation to Mr. Cermak's involvement, as we

14     know from other evidence, he was presenting statements and discussing the

15     matter with Mr. -- General Forand.  Would it be right to say that he was

16     there acting as a channel on behalf of the Croatian government?

17        A.   Yes.  He was a coordinator of sorts.  All the information that

18     had to be dealt with locally with UNCRO, with General Forand, that -- for

19     that information, it was General Cermak who was the point of contact.

20        Q.   Eventually this matter was solved, and the procedure followed to

21     enable these suspects or people charged to go into the criminal justice

22     system.

23             Were there also other representatives of the Croatian government

24     involved?  Slobodan Lang, do you know him, and was he also involved in

25     this process?

Page 18122

 1        A.   Yes.  Slobodan Lang was advisor to the president for humanitarian

 2     issues.  He was frequently present in the areas where human rights needed

 3     protecting.  He accompanied me on my trips very often.  In the course of

 4     autumn and particularly winter of 1995 on to 1996, he travelled the areas

 5     in the capacity of advisor to the president on a fact-finding mission and

 6     in order to report on the situation in the field with regard to the

 7     protection of human rights.  He launched a campaign called Let's Save

 8     Lives, which was meant to protect the elderly who lived in the

 9     mountainous area of the Glina and Knin regions who needed a supply of

10     firewood, foodstuffs and medication.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KAY:  Can we turn to another document now.

13             Excuse me, Your Honour, I'm just checking whether I have done my

14     housekeeping.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  In the meantime, I can inform the Court that

16     D1479 was provided to the OTP by Mr. Harston in March 2000.

17             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information, Ms. Gustafson.

19             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much.

20             Can we look now at a document 2D15-0043.

21        Q.   And it's a letter dated 22nd of September, 1995, from you to

22     Mr. Pitkanen, head of political and humanitarian affairs of UNCRO Zagreb.

23     And it is a response from the Ministry of Justice regarding the UNCRO

24     request for the monitoring of legal proceedings.  And do you recognise

25     this document as being one sent by you?

Page 18123

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. KAY:  May we turn to page 2.

 4        Q.   And we see there what was written by Mr. Penic on the 21st of

 5     September and sent to you concerning the monitoring of legal proceedings

 6     by UNCRO and his explanation there.

 7             Would it be right to say that you were being used as a channel

 8     yourself now, in dealing with the specifics of this matter as between

 9     UNCRO and the Ministry of Justice.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12        A.   That's right.

13             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1481.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. KAY:  If we can turn now to D15-0049.

19        Q.   This, again, is another document from Mr. Penic to you.  It's got

20     a date on the fax of 16th of October, 1995.

21             Right, I can see we've got the order of the document now.  It's

22     the second page.  But it's a document dated 2nd of October, and it

23     concerns the monitoring of judicial proceedings.  We can see the content

24     of the letter there, and it concerns monitoring.

25             If we turn to page 2, we can see it was sent by Mr. Penic, and we

Page 18124

 1     can see the terms of the letter about the requests and cooperation and

 2     collaboration.

 3             Do you recognise this document as being sent to you by Mr. Penic?

 4        A.   That's correct.  We warmly welcomed the UNCRO initiative to

 5     follow court proceedings.  We thought that was a very good thing to do.

 6     The trials were public, and it was a positive development that observers

 7     should be following trials and court proceedings in general.

 8             The whole initiative went through my office and the Ministry of

 9     Justice, since none of the international representatives were able to

10     communicate directly with the Croatian judiciary.  It so happened,

11     therefore, that the Ministry of Justice sent a letter to the president of

12     the Supreme Court, and to the presidents of the courts seized of these

13     cases.

14        Q.   If we can just turn, then, to page 3 of the document in e-court

15     where we can see a note by Mr. Penic to that effect, which I turn to

16     without anything any question, but just so that the Court can see the

17     document and the context of the witness's evidence, if that meets with

18     the Court's approval.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Maybe this document be made an exhibit, please,

20     Your Honour.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1482.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, it is perhaps due to our own scheduling.

25             This monitoring possibility, was that -- and I think it was in

Page 18125

 1     one of the documents we have seen but went rather quickly.

 2             Was that limited to public hearings or was it also non-public

 3     hearings?

 4             Perhaps the witness could tell us.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hearings were followed regardless

 6     of the fact whether the Court decided that they should be public or

 7     closed for public.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So monitoring possibilities were there also for

 9     non-public hearings.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

14        Q.   And that's all I ask you about on this matter.  Thank you.

15             The next matter I want to ask you questions about concern the

16     police officer, Mr. Ivkanec.  And if we could just look at a document,

17     first of all.  2D15-0063.

18             MR. KAY:  Your Honour will see reference to this evidence in

19     paragraph 3 of the witness's 65 ter statement, and paragraph 10, for the

20     Court's reference.

21             2D15-0063.

22        Q.   This is a document dated the 17th of September, 1992.  And it's

23     the decision by the minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, to appoint

24     temporarily Mr. Ivkanec to the Bjelovar police administration in the

25     position of commander of Pakrac police station.  And can you see that the

Page 18126

 1     appointment was made effective from 18th of September at 1992.

 2             And, is that right, that, at the time of Operation Flash,

 3     Mr. Ivkanec was within the Ministry of Interior as a policeman and

 4     commander of Pakrac police station?

 5        A.   This is the first time that I see this decision.  It is an

 6     internal document issued by the Ministry of Interior.  Therefore, I can

 7     only confirm that that was probably the case, since this looks like a

 8     genuine decision.

 9             Mr. Ivkanec, as far as I know, after Operation Flash, was in

10     charge of restoring safety and security in Eastern [as interpreted]

11     Slavonia.  And as far as I remember, he was a suitable person to do that

12     because he had good relationships with representatives of the Serbs,

13     Veljko Dzakula, in particular, at the time and also before

14     Operation Flash.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1483.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. KAY:  Something has been pointed on the transcript.  That is

22     should be Western Slavonia or Eastern Slavonia?

23             THE WITNESS:  Western Slavonia.

24             MR. KAY:  Yeah.  I'm grateful for that, and it was going to form

25     my next question actually because we will go to a document now,

Page 18127

 1     2D15-0061.

 2             As you told us, you were involved in Eastern Slavonia much

 3     later --

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 5        Q.   -- than 1999.

 6             Let's go to this document now, 2D15-0061.  It's dated 6th of May,

 7     1995.

 8             Can you tell us, first of all, when Operation Flash started an

 9     ended?

10        A.   [Interpretation] Operation Flash started on the 1st of January

11     [as interpreted]at 5.00 a.m.

12        Q.   January or May?

13        A.   1st of May.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And we see that this is dated the 6th of May, 1995.

15     It's a document signed by -- it says representative

16     Colonel General Cervenko, and if could you just look at the detail of the

17     document as we go through it.  It is sent to the Bjelovar Military

18     District, and it says with the aim of organising and coordinating

19     activities in order to accommodate prisoners from Western Slavonia to

20     search the terrain, ensure life conditions for civilians, the

21     coordination staff is established and formed by the president of the

22     Republic of Croatia and made up by the following people:  Number 1,

23     Major-General Mate Lausic, for the work and duties of the military

24     police; number 2, Josko Moric, department minister of the interior for

25     the work and tasks which are carried out by the Ministry of Interior,

Page 18128

 1     personnel and units; and Ivan Majdak, on behalf of the government, for

 2     dealing with work and tasks under the jurisdiction of the government and

 3     for the work, coordination of planning and carrying out tasks of the

 4     Croatian Army commands and units, in cooperation with MUP units, civil

 5     protection, military police in Western Slavonia, on behalf of the

 6     Main Staff; Brigadier Luka Dzanko, commander of the Bjelovar Military

 7     District was obligated to implement regulated and ordered measures and

 8     activities regarding the cooperation and participation with other parties

 9     in the area of Western Slavonia.

10             First of all, have you seen this document before?

11        A.   No, I haven't.  But I am aware of the content of the decision and

12     I know that these people were charged with these tasks.  But, as I said,

13     I have never seen this document before.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Is it right that what the document was establishing

15     after Operation Flash that the responsibility for the work and duties of

16     the military police would be within the coordination staff under

17     General Lausic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And in relation to the work of the civil police, again, the

20     possibility being under Josko Moric?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And Dr. Majdak --  I said Dr. Majdak.  Ivan Majdak is a doctor.

23     Dr. Majdak, isn't he?

24        A.   Yes, he is.

25        Q.   Dr. Majdak.  If you could explain to the Court what exactly his

Page 18129

 1     job was at that time in May 1995?

 2        A.   Roughly speaking, Ivan Majdak's job could be equated or reflected

 3     on what was supposed to be done by Mr. Cermak.  Namely, Ivan Majdak was

 4     an advisor to the president of the Republic in 1990 and 1991.  He was

 5     then advisor for the economy.  After that, he was the minister of

 6     agriculture in the Government of the Republic of Croatia.  At the time

 7     when he assumed these duty, I think that he was also a private

 8     entrepreneur and businessman at the time.

 9        Q.   In relation to Mr. -- or Dr. Majdak, was he, in fact, the

10     superior of Mr. Pasic, the government trustee, and the line to which

11     Mr. Pasic reported to in Knin?

12        A.   He was not appointed the government's commissioner.  There's a

13     substantial difference there.  He was a -- the coordinator for economic

14     affairs, involving the normalisation of life.  So something similar to

15     what Mr. Cermak was supposed to do in Knin.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.

17             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1484.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. KAY:

23        Q.   Just moving now to Knin from that snapshot there of

24     Western Slavonia.

25             MR. KAY:  Can we turn to P515.

Page 18130

 1        Q.   This is a document dated the 3rd of August, 1995.  And it's a

 2     record from the military police administration before Operation Storm on

 3     a meeting between the heads of the MUP, military police administration,

 4     and SIS, 3rd of August; and was on the subject of harmonising the work of

 5     the MUP, military police, and SIS in the preparation and during planned

 6     offensives operations by Croatian Army in the forthcoming period.

 7             And we can see who was present there:  Assistant minister,

 8     Mr. Moric; chief of police, Mr. Djurica.

 9             Just looking at him there and his name, is it correct that he

10     became the senior coordinator, in relation to the civilian police in Knin

11     and the region after the liberation of Knin?

12        A.   I think that was the case.  Although I have to admit, I wasn't

13     involved any longer in the issues relating to Knin because I became

14     engaged in the issues relating to Eastern Slavonia, so I cannot tell you

15     what the situation was at that time.

16        Q.   If we just look at this document, as it -- it concerns the

17     coordination between the military police and the civilian police.  And if

18     we look at page 2.

19             As the text shows, the names of the people present.  Court is

20     familiar with some of these names from various documents.  I won't repeat

21     them.  But it was -- the meeting was opened by Mr. Moric, who outlined a

22     key point:

23             "Yesterday's meeting," so on the 2nd of August, "between the

24     minister of defence and minister of the interior, basic principles

25     confirmed for the operations of the police and military police in wartime

Page 18131

 1     conditionals, which were based on experiences in Western Slavonia."

 2             And he and General Lausic were aware of negative experiences and

 3     it was there joint task to eliminate those problems and ensure full

 4     cooperation and performance of tasks.

 5             Page 3:  The MUP had undertake structural and other preparations

 6     for the forthcoming tasks and raised issues with the police

 7     administrations.  And that they had noticed in Western Slavonia the

 8     problem of the activities of irregulars, persons who had not participated

 9     in combat operations appeared near the lines in HV uniforms.

10             Court can see that they were dispensing justice, in quotation

11     marks, misuse of uniforms and Mr. Moric would deploy forces in the

12     liberated territory, according to the needs of the moment.

13             MR. KAY:  If we go to the next page, page 4.  I'm not going to

14     read out all the content.  But if you follow the information.

15     Brigade Biskic, who is the Deputy Chief of the military police

16     administration - Mr. Lausic's deputy - outlined tasks before the start of

17     combat operations, when they start, and when combat operations are

18     completed, and the tasks that would be done.

19             Page 5.  General Lausic stated basic negative experiences in

20     Flash concerning the military police, lack of vigour, failure to adapt,

21     et cetera.

22             And page 6, there is the record of what was discussed concerning

23     persons entering the area.  Mr. Moric dealing with preparations for entry

24     and exit points of towns and proposing that he and General Lausic should

25     meet once a day, exchange information, solve any problems.  And he stated

Page 18132

 1     he, himself, had noticed the problem of lack of vigour in the actions of

 2     the police.  And he comments upon assessments of the work of the military

 3     police, civilian police.  And we've no need to go through the rest of the

 4     document, but turn to page 8 to see this record from the military police

 5     administration was sent to Mr. Moric, Mr. Djurica, Mr. Nad, chief of SIS.

 6             And if I can point out to the Court, to save time, that this

 7     information was reflected in Exhibit D41.  The Court will remember I put

 8     to the Prosecution witness, Mr. Flynn, at that time, the record by the

 9     civilian police of this meeting, which is identical.  So I don't propose

10     to go into the two issues at the same time, because it would waste time.

11        Q.   Did you understand that, Ms. Ozbolt, that there is an record here

12     in another exhibit of the same matter?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Would it be correct to say that the military police and the

15     civilian police were preparing themselves for Operation Storm and how to

16     deal with the security and control of law and order?

17        A.   Yes, you can say that.

18        Q.   Turning now to Exhibit P493, just to have a look at this

19     document.

20             It's dated the 3rd of August and is sent to the police

21     administrations by Mr. Moric, ordering cooperation with the military

22     police.

23             You can see the kind of tasks that were being ordered.

24             Again, this was an example of the military police and civil

25     police planning to coordinate and work together; isn't that right?

Page 18133

 1        A.   This is the first time I see this document, but that was the

 2     intention, yes.

 3        Q.   And this Court is aware of other orders that have been passed.

 4             In relation to Western Slavonia, where we looked at the first

 5     document showing by the order of the president that Mr. Moric and

 6     Mr. Lausic form a coordination committee with Dr. Majdak, they had the

 7     same responsibility, in relation to Operation Storm; isn't that right?

 8     That's the cooperation that we see happening here.

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   Is it right that there is no equivalent order in relation to

11     Operation Storm that we saw on the document dated the 6th of May,

12     outlining the structure of the cooperation and coordination by the

13     president or Chief of Staff?

14        A.   There was no such document.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, in view of the constraints of time, I am

17     able to -- I take the view in relation to the answers of the witness,

18     skip a substantial amount of documentation showing the coordination

19     between Mr. Lausic and Mr. Moric from the 3rd of August onwards to the

20     meeting in Plitvice.

21             I don't know whether the Court would agree with that, or whether

22     the Court would like me to go through those documents.  They are all in

23     evidence.  I wouldn't be introducing anything -- no, I could read out the

24     exhibit numbers, if that would be helpful to the Court to show the issues

25     that are relevant to this matter.

Page 18134

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, of course, this Chamber doesn't know what

 2     questions you would put to the witness in relation to those documents.

 3     If it is just to ask her whether she is aware of documents, and I leave

 4     it to that, or whether that is in accordance with her recollection.  If

 5     it doesn't add much to the information, then I think it would be -- but

 6     I'm just looking at my colleagues.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have any specific questions, more than just

 9     drawing the attention of the witness to these documents, to see whether

10     she has any other opinions about it, then, of course, the Chamber would

11     be happy if you just say these and these are relevant documents in this

12     context and leave it to that.

13             If there's any document where have you doubt, you could just

14     mention the nature of the document and ask the witness whether she has

15     knowledge of the matter in such a way that it would add anything to what

16     is already in that document.

17             Of course, for the Chamber, it is guessing on what your questions

18     would be.  Therefore, if you consider that the content of the document is

19     most important and that you do not expect the witness to add much to

20     that, then the Chamber has no difficulties in accepting your suggestion.

21             MR. KAY:  So what I'll do, Your Honours is -- so that it's

22     transparent, is to list the documents.  I won't read them out now as

23     that's probably tedious.  And with the agreement of the Court, submit it

24     to your learned clerk, and you now know the passage that was going to be

25     gone through.

Page 18135

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you are saying you are going to list them, that

 2     means that you describe what it is without going into the content.

 3             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Ms. Ozbolt, there would be -- if there is any

 5     document which you hear about, if you think that, first of all, you know

 6     the document; and second, that the content might be misleading or might

 7     not speak for itself, so you really have important matters to add to what

 8     you know to be the content of that document, then you're invited to ask

 9     Mr. Kay to stop for a moment.

10             Mr. Kay, please proceed.

11             MR. KAY:

12        Q.   I will deal with it a very broad way, Ms. Ozbolt, rather than

13     going through documents that are already in evidence.  They are already

14     exhibits in the case, and I have put them to witnesses previously on the

15     same issue.

16             Were you aware of a series of orders issued by Mr. Moric in

17     relation to safety in the area, security in the area, and the prevention

18     of crimes in the area, that he issued to the police administrations to

19     stop crime.

20        A.   I didn't see written orders.  However, based on the reports that

21     we received on all the steps taken by the Ministry of Interior, I knew

22     that such orders had been issued, without seeing the texts of the orders

23     themselves, since that was the internal matter of the ministry.

24        Q.   Exactly.  And that was the answer I would have expected if I had

25     gone through each and every one.

Page 18136

 1             In relation to the military police and General Lausic, were you

 2     aware that in relation to the military police, he, likewise, issued such

 3     orders concerning safety, security, and prevention of crime to the

 4     battalions of the military police on regular occasions in August and

 5     September?

 6        A.   I can give you the same answer as before.  On the basis of the

 7     information we received, that's something I knew.  I didn't see their

 8     internal orders, nor was I supposed to.

 9        Q.   Were you aware that the two of them, in fact, were coordinating

10     these measures together, in relation to crimes that were being committed,

11     and they wanted their forces to stop?

12        A.   They probably were coordinating their activities.  I must admit,

13     that I did not have any direct communications with either of them, since,

14     as I told you already, I was engaged in other discussions concerning the

15     Erdut Agreement at the time.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.  I want to move to the last of the documents

17     in this theme, which will be Exhibit D595.

18             This is a record of a meeting held on the 15th of September,

19     1995.  This document comes from the military police administration, but

20     it's a meeting of the coordinative meeting with representatives of the

21     MUP by the military police administration, held at Plitvice on the 15th

22     of September - and a document that the Court is familiar with - and where

23     the chiefs of police administration reported at this meeting with the

24     military police administration what was happening in their area, and,

25     likewise, the military police commanders did the same thing.

Page 18137

 1             First of all, were you aware that such a coordination meeting had

 2     taken place between the military police administration and Ministry of

 3     Interior, in relation to the law and order problems they were facing?

 4        A.   No, I wasn't.  Perhaps somebody else in the office was.  And I

 5     mean the office of the president.

 6        Q.   Yes.  In Western Slavonia, was that the similar coordination that

 7     was taking place after Operation Flash between Mr. Moric and Mr. Lausic?

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I don't quite understand

 9     the question.  Maybe I'm the only one.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what we often do is to find out whether the

11     witness understands the question.

12             Did you understand the question?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must admit, that I don't, not

14     fully.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Kay, that is sufficient reason to rephrase

16     it.

17             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much.

18        Q.   When we looked at the 6th of May, 1995, document, Exhibit D1484,

19     and the president formed the coordination staff with Mr. --

20     Major-General Lausic, Mr. Moric, Dr. Majdak, and you described

21     Western Slavonia as a situation with which you were involved, the meeting

22     that we see took place on the 15th of September, after Storm, between the

23     MUP and the military police.  Was that a similar act of coordination from

24     what you had experienced in Western Slavonia?

25        A.   Let me be quite precise.  I dealt with Western Slavonia until the

Page 18138

 1     commencement of Operation Flash.  Thereafter, I received information

 2     about the situation on the ground.  The coordination body you referred

 3     to, which was set up especially for Western Slavonia, was partly copied,

 4     as such, in the Knin area.  The fact of the matter is that the two of

 5     them did cooperate, and as is clearly seen from the conclusions, they

 6     wanted to rectify their errors or any drawbacks that they observed in

 7     their activities in Western Slavonia, in order for these matters not to

 8     be repeated in their work in Sectors North and South.

 9             Let me repeat that I'm not privy to what happened afterwards

10     because at the time, we were engage in the intensive negotiations for the

11     Erdut Agreement that came to be signed two month the later.  Therefore, I

12     no longer followed the developments in the area.

13        Q.   Thank you.  That deals with that matter and now moving on to some

14     other smaller matters to ask you questions about.

15             You worked in the president's office, and your immediate superior

16     was who?  Was it Mr. Sarinic?

17        A.   It was the president.

18        Q.   Right.  During this period after Operation Storm, were you

19     working in the president's office regularly?  Were you there on a

20     day-by-day basis?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Were you aware of telephone calls made by General Cermak to

23     president's office?

24        A.   Depending on who he was calling.  If he called the president, I

25     did not necessarily have to know of it.

Page 18139

 1        Q.   Do you know if he called Mr. Sarinic?

 2        A.   I probably did know of it.

 3        Q.   Did he telephone the president's office, so far as you are aware,

 4     to let them know what was happening in Knin and the area from information

 5     he had received?

 6        A.   He probably did, and he probably spoke to them.  I spoke to him

 7     on the issue involving the Serbs within the UN compound.

 8        Q.   Just putting your conversation with him aside because we can go

 9     to that in a -- in a minute.  In relation to the trouble and crime that

10     was happening in the area down in the liberated territory, do you know if

11     Mr. Cermak had telephoned in to let them know what was happening?

12        A.   I don't have that sort of knowledge about when he called or who

13     he spoke to, but he most probably did inform them of it.

14        Q.   And in relation to your matter of dealing with the people wanted

15     for questioning and the criminal justice process in Croatia, was he

16     finding out from you what was happening and how matters were going to

17     develop?

18        A.   To the best of my knowledge, I believed that I informed him of

19     the discussions we had with Akashi and his team in Zagreb.  Mr. Cermak

20     was more frequently in touch with General Forand from the UN, who, on his

21     part, had his communication channel with Mr. Akashi and the UN

22     representatives in Zagreb.

23             As for us, we communicated along this other line, with

24     General Cermak and informed him of what the intended activities were,

25     especially in relation to the issues discussed with Mr. Akashi.

Page 18140

 1        Q.   Were aware at the time that General Cermak was condemning crime

 2     that was happening publicly?

 3        A.   Yes.  He appeared on television every day and presented his


 5        Q.   And what were those views?

 6        A.   He condemned what was happening and demanded that such matters be

 7     investigated into.  I think that was the context in which he presented

 8     his views.  It's hard to recall everything.

 9        Q.   It been said in this court that he was part of a plan to drive

10     out Serbs from the region and cause them to leave.  Did he present

11     himself to you as a man acting in that way?

12        A.   No, absolutely not.  First of all, there was no plan to drive out

13     anyone.  General Cermak is a highly tolerant person who I don't believe

14     exhibited any sort of resentment or animosity toward anyone.  I don't

15     know him to be such a person.

16        Q.   In relation to a comment in your statement about him saying to

17     you, I'm here because of you, because you persuaded me to take the job,

18     is that an accurate scenario of what happened; or is that something that

19     he said to you in a -- in a different context?

20        A.   I was the minister of the justice from late 2003 up until early

21     2006.  As such, as a minister charged with the justice system and

22     penitentiaries, I visited Mr. Cermak and Mr. Markac in the UN detention

23     unit here, and that was his first reaction upon seeing me here.

24             I thought his reaction was an understandable one, because it

25     was -- he was taken out of his own context of business and transferred to

Page 18141

 1     Knin, where he was supposed to exhibit all his skills, in terms of

 2     organisation and logistics; and one did not expect that the events would

 3     take the turn they did.

 4        Q.   Was he saying that you persuaded him or that the office of which

 5     you were a member --

 6        A.   Well, the office where we worked included Sarinic and myself.  In

 7     hindsight, I seem to realise that he was picked out of -- and dropped

 8     into something he -- where he could not expect what was to happen.  We,

 9     ourselves, could not anticipate the developments that would ensue.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I'm pleased to say I think I have beaten

12     the clock, and I'm able with the shortcut --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You did.

14             MR. KAY:  -- to finish earlier.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You did, Mr. Kay.

16             MR. KAY:  That concludes my questioning, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Mikulicic, we understand that the Markac Defence has no

19     questions for the witness.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We will first have a break.  And, Ms. Gustafson, you

22     can start your cross-examination after the break.

23             We will have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

Page 18142

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, before I give you an opportunity to

 2     cross-examine the witness, I would like to clarify one thing with you,

 3     Ms. Ozbolt, and I'd like to have D1481 on the screen.  Second page,

 4     please.

 5             Yes, I asked you about access to hearings, public hearings or

 6     not, and I am - I have to admit - a bit confused, because what I read is

 7     that you agree, in principle, I don't know what that adds in principle.

 8     But at least there's agreement with the presence of the UNCRO

 9     representatives at all court hearings which are in accordance with the

10     positive legal acts of the Republike Hrvatske, public hearings and then

11     the letter continues by saying:

12             "Therefore, we agree with the monitoring of pre-trial

13     investigation of persons who were processed for the severe criminal

14     offences of terrorism and war crime."

15             Now, is it public hearings?  Then the "therefore" comes as a bit

16     of a surprise, because I think it is common knowledge that most pre-trial

17     proceedings are of a non-public character.  I'm really confused by this

18     letter, and if you can shed some light on it, then you are invited to do

19     so.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Court hearings are public.

21     Hearings held before a chamber are public.

22             As for the proceedings held before an investigating judge, in

23     each and every instance an application had to be made for their presence

24     to be allowed at a hearing, at a questioning of someone.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, what everyone was entitled to

Page 18143

 1     see public hearings, UNCRO could watch that as well.  If it was not

 2     public, it was, there was no automatic right to monitoring.

 3             Is that well understood?  But that an application had to be made,

 4     and then the court would decide?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We sent or, rather, the Ministry of

 6     Justice sent the UNCRO request for monitoring a certain court proceeding

 7     to the president of the court in question.  The president would then

 8     grant such a request, and the proceedings could be followed from their

 9     commencement through to the end.

10             The request that I forwarded to -- or, rather, this letter I

11     forwarded it UNCRO representatives was not perhaps formulated in the

12     best -- in the happiest of formulations.  However, the practice was that

13     with every request made by the international representatives to be

14     present at court proceedings, every request was granted.  And there were

15     no difficulties encountered in their monitoring of these proceedings.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us approximately how many such

17     requests were made?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you how many such

19     requests were made.  At any rate, every request was granted.  The

20     monitoring of court proceedings did take place.  At the time I was

21     minister of the justice, and this is the case today, international

22     representatives had been monitoring criminal proceedings taking place in

23     Croatia, and there were no difficulties encountered in that quarter.

24             I can't tell you the exact number, but it was the rule that every

25     such request was granted.

Page 18144

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And you're now talking not about the time when you

 2     were minister of justice, but you're now talking about late 1995.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for this.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even back then.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

 7             Then I looked at the letter sent to you by Mr. Tomislav Penic.

 8     Do I understand that all those who were under investigation and who were

 9     in the UNCRO facility, were they all charged with offences for which the

10     maximum penalty was ten years or higher; or were there any in that camp

11     that were investigated for crimes not of such seriousness?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the crimes involved

13     carried a sentence of more than ten years of imprisonment.  The persons

14     who were on the wanted list weren't charged with crimes incurring

15     sentences exceeding ten years of imprisonment.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  All of them.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so, yes.  I think so.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You think so, you believe so.  I'd like to -- it's

19     your recollection that there was no one who was charged with any offence

20     incurring a maximum penalty of --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the general practice

22     focussed on the crimes carrying a sentence of more than ten years.  There

23     would be no such insistence in respect of other less serious crimes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So for all of them there was compulsory

25     defence?

Page 18145

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And, finally, that may be a detail, I wondered

 3     whether in D1480 where it reads:

 4             "If the accused is mute, death or incapable to defend himself,"

 5     whether that should not be deaf instead of death.  I can't check the

 6     original, but it surprised me.

 7             Then, Ms. Gustafson, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

11        Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. Skare Ozbolt.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   I would like to start by asking you a couple of more specific

14     questions on the evidence you gave yesterday about your proximity to

15     President Tudjman and the frequency of the contact you had with him.

16             And today you mentioned in a -- in answer to a question from

17     Mr. Kay that if General Cermak had called President Tudjman, you wouldn't

18     necessarily know about that.  My question is:  Is that the case

19     generally, that, when people called the president directly, you wouldn't

20     necessarily know about those phone calls or know what was said; is that

21     right?

22        A.   Well, my office was located on the same floor as that of the

23     president.  They were quite close one to another.  But the president had

24     his assistant, his head of office, and his entire specialist staff who

25     knew who called him when.  In other words, it was not my duty to know

Page 18146

 1     about that or any of the other assistants of who his were close to him,

 2     they didn't have to necessarily know of each and every instance of

 3     someone calling him or talking to him.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And similarly President Tudjman met frequently with

 5     his close advisors in one-on-one and small-group meetings, did he not,

 6     people like Mr. Sarinic, Mr. Radic, Minister Susak; is that right?

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   And President Tudjman didn't make it a habit or there was no

 9     systematic reporting to you of what happened in those one-on-one meetings

10     with his close advisors, was there?

11        A.   Well, of course.

12        Q.   When you say "of course," do you mean there was a systematic

13     reporting to you of what happened at those meetings or there was not?

14        A.   Look, I would have a briefing session with the president in the

15     morning, which had to do with the general state of affairs which I

16     briefed him on; I would occasionally see him during the day, whenever he

17     sought me or I needed to inform of him of something; and then we would

18     all meet at lunch-time to exchange information and coordinate our work.

19        Q.   And on that note your work was -- I think your evidence was that

20     it was principally, in the beginning, in public relations and then in

21     negotiations with the RSK and the UN.  That was your sphere of work; is

22     that right?

23             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, if we can get a time-frame because obviously

24     that is not a complete area of work.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I believe it was public relations between 1991 to

Page 18147

 1     1994 and then it changed to working as a representative in negotiations

 2     with the RSK and the UN.

 3        Q.   From that point throughout 1995; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So it's correct to say that you were not involved in matters

 6     relating to the function or operation of the Croatian army; is that

 7     right?

 8        A.   That's right.

 9        Q.   And you weren't involved in the planning or implementation of

10     military operations, were you?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   And you weren't present at military meetings when the planning of

13     such operations took place, were you?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And the Chamber has received evidence of a meeting for the

16     planning of Operation Storm in late July.  You weren't present at that

17     meeting, were you?

18        A.   At the meeting held where?  Where exactly?

19        Q.   It was a meeting on the 31st of July.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, I think the witness asked where it

21     was held.  I take it you want to refer to 31st of July, Brioni island.

22     That's apparently what the witness would like to know.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't present at that

24     meeting.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:

Page 18148

 1        Q.   And you don't know what was discussed at that meeting or what

 2     plans were made at that meeting, do you?

 3        A.   That's right.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to move on to another topic, which is the Law

 5     on Temporary taking over and administration of property that you gave

 6     evidence about earlier.

 7             And I believe in your evidence you said that this law was a

 8     temporary measure, and I think you emphasised "temporary" to deal with

 9     the housing of refugees which was a big problem at the time?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, wasn't it --

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.    -- the case, Ms. Skare Ozbolt, that this law was intended by the

14     Croatian leadership, including President Tudjman to permanently take Serb

15     houses and settle Croats in them, in the Krajina area?

16        A.   I will give you the following answer:  It wasn't the intention to

17     take these homes over.  The intention was, and I believe I stated it

18     quite clearly, that the Serb who did not wish to live in Croatia and who

19     made that decision of their own accord and who wanted to sell their

20     property could sell it on the market to whomever, or, that they could

21     sell it to the Croatian government, which did buy such homes.  The

22     context I'm referring to is quite different from the one you formulated

23     your question in.  For that purpose, the agency for the sale of real

24     estate was set up and was attached to the Government of the Republic of

25     Croatia.

Page 18149

 1        Q.   You're not aware of any statements by the leadership stating that

 2     this law was intended not as a temporary measure but to permanently

 3     settle Croats in houses that had previously belonged to Serbs; is that

 4     your evidence?

 5        A.   Can you please cite by way of example a statement which would be

 6     different?  Only those homes in respect of which there was the wish to

 7     sell them were bought by the Republic of Croatia's government.  Such a

 8     request had to be sent, the value of the homes had to be assessed, a

 9     price had to be negotiated, and, finally, the seller had to be paid his

10     money.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Skare Ozbolt, the question put to you by

12     Ms. Gustafson was, whether it was your evidence that you were not aware

13     of any statement on permanence character rather than anything else.

14             And you started your answer by saying, "Can you please cite by

15     way of an example a statement ..."

16             That is a counterquestion, and I would like to invite you not to

17     respond questions by putting questions to Ms. Gustafson.

18             Would you please keep that in mind.

19             Please proceed.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President.

21              All manner of statements were made.  I don't know what it is

22     exactly what Mrs. Prosecutor is referring to in putting the question to

23     me, but I do know what the meaning of the law was.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Her question was whether it is your evidence that

25     you're not aware of any statement by the leadership.

Page 18150

 1             So if you are, if that's your evidence, please say, Yes; if you

 2     say, No, I know of some statement at any moment, please, tell

 3     Ms. Gustafson.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall any such statement.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we please have P462 brought up in e-court.

 8        Q.   And, Ms. Skare Ozbolt, this is a record of a meeting held on the

 9     11th of August, 1995.  And can you see from the cover page your name is

10     listed as being present with the president.  And can you see the names of

11     the other participants of the meeting.

12             Do you recall attending this meeting on the 11th of August with

13     these participants?

14        A.   If my name is there, then I probably did attend the meeting.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 14 in the English, and

16     I believe page 24 in the B/C/S.  Sorry, it should be the previous page in

17     the B/C/S.  Sorry, the page before that.

18        Q.   Now, I'd like to direct your attention to Mr. Radic's statement.

19             "President:  Maybe something in connection with the issue you

20     have mentioned at the beginning, the issue of Serbian houses, in

21     quotation marks, we did not touch it, we just ignored it.

22              "The Law on Property is in parliamentary procedure.  However it

23     has passed only the first reading and that things are not going smoothly

24     in that regard.  I think that we should, I have no idea in which way, but

25     to solve that urgently."

Page 18151

 1             Do you recall Mr. Radic raising that issue at that meeting?

 2        A.   I have to say that I don't.  It was a long time ago.  But this is

 3     probably what he said.  I'm not questioning this statement.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to the next page -- I'm sorry, two

 6     pages forward in the English, and I believe three pages forward in the

 7     B/C/S.

 8        Q.   We see Mr. Valentic.  He was the prime minister; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   He says:

11             "President:  In this law it is important that our people have

12     security and that they cannot be thrown out, in my opinion, that is

13     important, the wording because nobody will move in if they can be thrown

14     out in a year.  Now, the question is what form is most suitable to put

15     this basic idea in?"

16             Now, Mr. Valentic here is expressing the view that this should be

17     a permanent transfer, that nobody should be thrown out in a year who's

18     put into these houses; is that right?

19        A.   That's right.

20        Q.   And then if you look at what Mr. Radic says immediately

21     afterwards:

22             "Nothing is more important than this.  Nothing is more important

23     in Croatia today than this, because people are coming, Croats.  And I

24     don't know.  We don't have a report on this, but I don't know if you know

25     that Vojnic used to have only 51 inhabitants.  Today it is a town of

Page 18152

 1     15.000 people.  Tomorrow we can fill it up with 15.000.  In addition,

 2     Lapac has 14 inhabitant, 14 Croats.  Donji Lapac, 14 inhabitants.  (It's

 3     more than the number of houses) I agree.  But its strategically so

 4     important, and it's in such a position that we must repair the houses,

 5     Gojko, and put Croats there.  Such is the position of the place."

 6             Now, Donji Lapac before the war was 99 percent Serb; is that

 7     right.

 8        A.   [In English] Almost.

 9        Q.   And Vojnic about 90 percent?

10        A.   [Interpretation] That's right.

11        Q.   And those municipalities are in the part of Croatia, in the

12     central part of Croatia where it's the thinnest; is that right?

13        A.   You mean the thinnest geographical speaking?

14        Q.   That's right.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And when Mr. Radic says:

17             "We must put Croats there, such is the position of the place," he

18     is referring to the geography of those municipality, their geographical

19     position, is he not?

20        A.   Probably.

21        Q.   And if we go down to what the president says immediately after

22     Mr. Radic.  This is President Tudjman:

23             "I am with the more radical.  If someone has left the country and

24     does not appear there, I don't know, a month, or three month, et cetera,

25     that shall be considered, think of the wording, state property,

Page 18153

 1     et cetera.  We have come out a war, et cetera, define it like that."

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we go to the next page in the English, and I

 3     believe also in the B/C/S, the next speaker.

 4             Mr. Valentic says:

 5             "Not three month, three months is too long, because we ...

 6             "The president:  Okay a month then.

 7             "Mr. Radic:  Then we must do it through a government decree, we

 8     can't wait."

 9             And then a little further down, Mr. Radic again:

10             "Because the three-month deadline has already expired for Okucani

11     and that's an area where we must then be able to move people in already."

12             Now, Okucani is an area that was taken back as part of

13     Operation Flash; is that right?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   And when Mr. Radic refers to the three-month deadline already

16     expiring there, that's a reference to the fact that it's been over three

17     months since Operation Flash; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.  That was probably the case.

19        Q.   And if we continue, Mr. Tudjman, President Tudjman says:

20             "Yes, of course, people are coming and I don't know who says

21     Rebic or somebody that they're going put them in camps. (Camps are out of

22     the question)."

23             Mr. Susak says:

24             "President, a thousand are coming from Banja Luka."

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to the next page.

Page 18154

 1             President Tudjman says:

 2             "Camps are out of the question, and, therefore, we must see about

 3     that.

 4             Mr. Radic:

 5             "We have good houses, intact houses.  Who do we keep them for? "

 6             A little further down the page, Vladimir Seks says:

 7             "President, we did put it into the law, for the second reading,

 8     but the people that move into a house have ownership security.  They

 9     don't want temporary use.  They must invest, repair, keep it in order,

10     they want to own it."

11             President Tudjman says:

12             "Yes, well, that's clear.  It's in our interests too ..."

13        Q.   Ms. Skare Ozbolt, does the record of this meeting refresh your

14     recollection about the intentions of the leadership to permanently

15     resettle Croats in houses that had been abandoned by Serbs who had left

16     the areas taken over in Operations Flash and Storm?

17        A.   This took place in 1995, which was the time when Croatia, as far

18     as the care for refugees and expellees was concerned, was pretty much on

19     its knees.

20             In the wake of operation, the areas that you have mentioned were

21     completely vacant.  People were constantly being expelled from Banja

22     Luka, and they were arriving in Croatia.  There was no accommodation

23     available anymore for those people nor was there any possibility to

24     expand the capacity.  The only manner for them to provide them with

25     shelter is to put them in houses, the abandoned houses.  This is probably

Page 18155

 1     how this discussion went on and various views were expressed as well as

 2     various proposals.

 3             However, the final outcome was that the Law on Temporary Takeover

 4     of Property was adopted, and that the agency I mentioned earlier was set

 5     up for those who wished to sell their houses.  In that way, the

 6     government solved the problem of ownership for those individuals who were

 7     inhabiting these houses on a temporary basis.

 8        Q.   We'll look at that law in a moment.  But I'd just like to go back

 9     to one part of your answer, which was about these being empty spaces and

10     Croatia being on its knees with a refugee problem.

11             This wasn't just about refugees, was it?  The intention of

12     President Tudjman was to fill these empty spaces with Croats?

13             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, that was two questions.  If we can just

14     have one question at a time.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The question would be:  The intention of

17     President Tudjman was to fill these empty spaces with Croats -- the

18     question doesn't make sense if I don't talk about the --

19        Q.   I mean, the refugee problem was not the issue.  The issue was

20     filling these spaces with Croats, wasn't it, for President Tudjman?

21        A.   The contentious issue was where to place the Croats that were

22     arriving from Bosnia-Herzegovina, particularly from the area of

23     Banja Luka.  They had left their houses back there, and some of them were

24     settled in these houses.  The intention was not to put them up in those

25     houses indefinitely but to provide them with a temporary shelter until

Page 18156

 1     conditions were ripe for them to return to Banja Luka.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, just one observation.  When we're

 3     talking about the intention, you put to the witness a document.  It's

 4     about a certain discussion.  It seems to me that what was the intention

 5     at what time or at least what was expressed as an intention at what time

 6     is repeatedly mixed up, because -- but please correct me when I'm wrong,

 7     Ms. Skare Ozbolt, one thing is what transpires from that discussion and

 8     another matter is what, then, happened later.

 9             Could we always clearly distinguish between what we are talking

10     because it seems that Ms. Gustafson is asking questions about what --

11     what we see happening or what we read was said during this meeting;

12     whereas, part of your answers seem to be about what the overall intention

13     was whether or not expressed in that meeting, yes or no, and what the

14     final result was.

15             Let's try to keep things as clear as possible.  If Ms. Gustafson

16     asks about the meeting, let's look at what the meeting tell us.  If

17     Ms. Gustafson is asking about other moments or other meetings or other

18     developments, let's always clearly define what we're talking about.

19             Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you for the guidance, Your Honour.

21             If we could go to Exhibit P463; page 3 in the English and page 6

22     in the B/C/S.

23             Sorry, if we could go to page 1 - sorry - to start, so the

24     witness can see the cover page.

25        Q.   Now, Ms. Skare Ozbolt, this is a record of a meeting held on the

Page 18157

 1     22nd of August, about ten days after the one we just looked at, between

 2     Mr. Radic and President Tudjman.

 3             Do you have any knowledge about this particular meeting?

 4        A.   No.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go now to page 3 in the English and

 6     page 6 in the B/C/S.

 7             And at the bottom of page 3 in the English, and I believe in the

 8     middle of the page in B/C/S, if we could ...

 9             If we could just move down in the English.  The B/C/S is fine.

10        Q.   And you see here Mr. Radic saying -- sorry, Dr. Radic.

11             "It has been ruined very much.  You have been to the main region

12     only, but Drnis is the second biggest border town in Croatia.  Vukovar

13     first, then Drnis, 25.000 people.  There was only 1.000 Serbs there.  I'm

14     talking about the town, I mean, the village as well.  Everything around

15     it has been ruined."

16             MR. KEHOE:  Can we just change the page, please.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry, in the English.

18             Out the 25.000 maybe 5.000 could return and 20.000 can't.  That's

19     the situation in Drnis.

20             The last paragraph he says:

21             "So in my opinion, one third of 120.000 shall remain

22     questionable, as for the remaining two thirds of 120."

23             And then the last sentence he says:

24             "However, our goal is to take them off the refugee status.  The

25     biggest problem is bringing people over there.  I sat down and analysed

Page 18158

 1     it a bit ..."

 2             And then the president says --

 3             If we can move down in the B/C/S.

 4        Q.    "Jure, regarding these returns we, as Croatia, should go for

 5     inviting people to come back and paying for their trips from Argentina,

 6     Australia, et cetera."

 7             If we can go to the next page in B/C/S.

 8             "We should organise some charter flights and ships and tell they

 9     will they could choose, give them houses, give them land, even take some

10     kind of a poll on what they would be interested in.  We have to offer

11     them such a possibility, but the state should pay for that."

12             Dr. Radic says:

13             "It won't cost us a thing?"

14             And the president says:

15             "That would mean a thousand people and they would enter the Serb

16     houses, et cetera."

17             And Dr. Radic says:

18             "Correct, correct.  The space is empty."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, I see that you now start reading the

20     next paragraph.  Mr. Kay did beat the clock.  It seems that you're

21     ignoring the clock a bit.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I was going to stop right there and ask one

23     question and then --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please do and we hear the answer, and then we

25     will adjourn.

Page 18159

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 2        Q.   Ms. Skare Ozbolt, this meeting is a reflection of

 3     President Tudjman's desire to fill those empty spaces with Croats, is it

 4     not?

 5        A.   This was a reflection of the situation that required these empty

 6     spaces to be filled in because, otherwise, they would pose a danger

 7     strategically speaking.  This is it a very narrow area, facing the

 8     Republika Srpska, and if it is void of people, it was possible for the

 9     property to be demolished, incursions were possible to take place, and it

10     was absolutely necessary to have people settle there.

11             Since these were empty spaces, the houses were empty, and there

12     were refugees all over the place, according to them, this was the only

13     possible solution.

14             When the president spoke about the idea of settling people from

15     Argentina and from other countries all over the world, he probably

16     referred to what subsequently happened, and that is, that people settled

17     in the houses that were bought off.  However, this particular idea

18     relating to bringing people or, rather, Croats from all over the world

19     was never put no practice.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to adjourn for the day, Ms. Skare Ozbolt.

22             We will resume tomorrow, Friday, the 5th of June, 9.00, in this

23     same courtroom.

24             I forgot to give you the same instructions as yesterday, that is

25     not to speak with anyone about your testimony --

Page 18160

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day

 7                           of June, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.